[House Hearing, 119 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]






                                 

 
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                                HEARING

                               Before The

        SUBCOMMITTEE ON HEALTH, EMPLOYMENT, LABOR, AND PENSIONS

                                 of the

                  COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND WORKFORCE
                     U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS

                             FIRST SESSION

                               __________



             HEARING HELD IN WASHINGTON, DC, APRIL 30, 2025

                               __________

                            Serial No. 119-9

                               __________

    Printed for the use of the Committee on Education and Workforce
    
    
    [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]



        Available via: edworkforce.house.gov or www.govinfo.gov
        
        
                  U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE                    
61-523PDF                WASHINGTON : 2025             
        
        
        
        
                  COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND WORKFORCE

                    TIM WALBERG, Michigan, Chairman

JOE WILSON, South Carolina           ROBERT C. ``BOBBY'' SCOTT, 
VIRGINIA FOXX, North Carolina            Virginia,
GLENN THOMPSON, Pennsylvania           Ranking Member
GLENN GROTHMAN, Wisconsin            JOE COURTNEY, Connecticut
ELISE M. STEFANIK, New York          FREDERICA S. WILSON, Florida
RICK W. ALLEN, Georgia               SUZANNE BONAMICI, Oregon
JAMES COMER, Kentucky                MARK TAKANO, California
BURGESS OWENS, Utah                  ALMA S. ADAMS, North Carolina
LISA C. McCLAIN, Michigan            MARK DeSAULNIER, California
MARY E. MILLER, Illinois             DONALD NORCROSS, New Jersey
JULIA LETLOW, Louisiana              LUCY McBATH, Georgia
KEVIN KILEY, California              JAHANA HAYES, Connecticut
MICHAEL A. RULLI, Ohio               ILHAN OMAR, Minnesota
JAMES C. MOYLAN, Guam                HALEY M. STEVENS, Michigan
ROBERT F. ONDER, Jr., Missouri       GREG CASAR, Texas
RYAN MACKENZIE, Pennsylvania         SUMMER L. LEE, Pennsylvania
MICHAEL BAUMGARTNER, Washington      JOHN W. MANNION, New York
MARK HARRIS, North Carolina          VACANCY
MARK B. MESSMER, Indiana
RANDY FINE, Florida

                     R.J. Laukitis, Staff Director
              Veronique Pluviose, Minority Staff Director
                                 ------                                

        SUBCOMMITTEE ON HEALTH, EMPLOYMENT, LABOR, AND PENSIONS

                     RICK ALLEN, Georgia, Chairman

ROBERT F. ONDER, Jr., Missouri       Mark DeSaulnier, California,
JOE WILSON, South Carolina             Ranking Member
VIRGINIA FOXX, North Carolina        JOE COURTNEY, Connecticut
JAMES COMER, Kentucky                DONALD NORCROSS, New Jersey
BURGESS OWENS, Utah                  LUCY McBATH, Georgia
LISA C. McCLAIN, Michigan            JAHANA HAYES, Connecticut
MICHAEL A. RULLI, Ohio               GREG CASAR, Texas
RYAN MACKENZIE, Pennsylvania         SUMMER L. LEE, Pennsylvania
MICHAEL BAUMGARTNER, Washington      JOHN W. MANNION, New York
RANDY FINE, Florida                  MARK TAKANO, California
                         C  O  N  T  E  N  T  S

                              ----------                              
                                                                   Page

Hearing held on April 30, 2025...................................     1

                           OPENING STATEMENTS

    Allen, Hon. Rick, Chairman, Subcommittee on Health, 
      Employment, Labor, and Pensions............................     1
        Prepared statement of....................................     4
    DeSaulnier, Hon. Mark, Ranking Member, Subcommittee Health, 
      Employment, Labor, and Pensions............................     5
        Prepared statement of....................................     8

                               WITNESSES

    Schanzenbach, Max, Seigle Family Professor of Law, 
      Northwestern University Pritzker School of Law.............    10
        Prepared statement of....................................    12
    Crain, Charles, Managing Vice President of Policy, National 
      Association of Manufacturers...............................    16
        Prepared statement of....................................    18
    Rees, Brandon, Deputy Director, American Federation of Labor 
      and Congress of Industrial Organizations, (AFL-CIO)........    25
        Prepared statement of....................................    26
    Brannon, Ike, President, Capitol Policy Analytics............    35
        Prepared statement of....................................    37

                         ADDITIONAL SUBMISSIONS

    Ranking Member DeSaulnier:
        Report dated February 2025, titled ``Shareholder 
          Proposals: An Essential Investor Right''...............    57
        Article dated April 21, 2025, titled ``Dow Headed for 
          Worst April Since 1932 as Investors Send `No 
          Confidence' Signal''...................................    85
        Letter dated December 13, 2021, from BlackRock...........    93
        Report dated December 2024, from the Joint Economic 
          Committee titled ``Trump's Tariff Plans Would Drive Up 
          Costs for Families and Shrink the Economy''............   101
        Statement dated April 30, 2025, from Americans for 
          Financial Reform Education Fund (AFREF)................   103


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                       Wednesday, April 30, 2025

                  House of Representatives,
    Subcommittee on Health, Employment, Labor, and 
                                          Pensions,
                      Committee on Education and Workforce,
                                                    Washington, DC.
    The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:17 a.m., in 
Room 2175, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Rick Allen 
(Chairman of the Subcommittee) presiding.
    Present: Representatives Allen, Foxx, Rulli, Mackenzie, 
Fine, Walberg, DeSaulnier, Courtney, Hayes, Lee, Mannion, 
Takano, and Scott.
    Staff present: Vlad Cerga, Director of Information 
Technology; Libby Kearns, Press Assistant; Katerina Kerska, 
Legislative Assistant; Trey Kovacs, Director of Workforce 
Policy; Campbell Ladd, Clerk; R.J. Laukitis, Staff Director; 
John Martin, Deputy Director of Workforce Policy/Counsel; Audra 
McGeorge, Communications Director; Daniel Nadel, Legislative 
Assistant; Ethan Pann, Deputy Press Secretary and Digital 
Director; Kane Riddell, Staff Assistant; Carl Rifino, Intern; 
Sara Robertson, Press Secretary; Ann Vogel, Director of 
Operations; Ali Watson, Director of Member Services; Joe 
Wheeler, Professional Staff Member; James Whittaker, General 
Counsel; Jeanne Wilson, Retirement Counsel; Ellie Berenson, 
Minority Press Assistant; Ilana Brunner, Minority General 
Counsel; Ni'Aisha Banks, Minority Staff Assistant; Dylan 
Dunson, Minority Intern; Daniel Foster, Minority Senior Health 
and Labor Counsel; Jo Howard, Minority Grad Intern; Amanda Lee, 
Minority Grad Intern; Dhrtvan Sherman, Minority Research 
Assistant; Raiyana Malone, Minority Press Secretary; Kevin 
McDermott, Minority Director of Labor Policy; Veronique 
Pluviose, Minority Staff Director; Banyon Vassar, Minority 
Director of IT.
    Chairman Allen. The Subcommittee on Health, Employment, 
Labor and Pensions will now come to order. I note that a quorum 
is present. Without objection, the Chair is authorized to call 
a recess at any time. Today's hearing is about protecting the 
retirement savings of American workers from the previous 
administration's attempt to water down ERISA's cornerstone 
fiduciary principle, and investments were made in the financial 
interest of workers and retirees.
    During President Trump's first administration, the 
Department of Labor finalized rules with clear guidelines on 
investing and proxy voting, but the Biden-Harris administration 
revoked those protective rules and replaced them with weak 
rules that threaten the retirement savings of all Americans.
    As justification for revoking the Trump administration 
rules, the Biden-Harris DOL was misleading. Some would say they 
outright lied. At that time, DOL said it's rule was needed to 
clear up any uncertainty surrounding whether a fiduciary under 
ERISA may consider ESG and other factors in making investment 
and proxy voting decisions under the Trump Rule standard.
    The Biden-Harris administration repeatedly cited concerns 
and confusion raised in secret, unnamed stakeholders regarding 
whether climate change and other ESG factors may be treated as 
monetary factors under the Trump Rule. The misleading 
justifications the Biden-Harris DOL gave for revoking the Trump 
Rule ranged from cherry picking history to outright misstating 
the facts.
    DOL's real aim was to cast doubt on the Trump Rule to 
bolster credibility for its own abrupt break with ERISA's core 
fiduciary duties. By creating an overly broad tie breaker rule, 
the Biden-Harris administration allowed retiree's savings to be 
used to finance the latest pet policy goals of the left.
    In fact, the previous administration stated in the preamble 
to the proposed rule for many years the Department's 
nonregulatory guidance would recognize that, under the 
appropriate circumstances, ERISA fiduciaries can make 
investment decisions that reflect climate change and other ESG 
considerations, including climate related risk and choose 
economically targeted investments selected in part for benefits 
apart from their investment return.
    This statement is so far from ERISA's duty of loyalty and 
the Supreme Court's expressed statement of ERISA's duty of 
loyalty, it calls for immediate action to protect the 
retirement savings of American workers. Americans invest to 
secure their future, not to fund the Green New Deal or leftist 
pet projects.
    Fiduciaries governed by ERISA should not be allowed to make 
investments they know will not pay dividends. A fiduciary's 
most important responsibility is to make investments that are 
in the financial interest of workers and retirees. The mission 
of DOL's Employee Benefit Security Administration is to ensure 
the retirement, health, and other workplace benefits of 
American workers and their families.
    Instead of upholding this mission, the Biden-Harris 
administration DOL deliberately confused investing for the 
purpose of providing benefits with attempting to invest to 
advance partisan social and political goals.
    Congress reacted swiftly. Within the first 3 months of 
2023, the House and Senate passed a congressional Review Act 
Resolution to nullify the Biden-Harris administration's ESG and 
Proxy Voting Rule.
    However, when the CRA Resolution reached President Biden's 
desk, he vetoed it. In the last week I introduced the 
Protecting Prudent Investment of Retirement Savings Act, which 
seeks to codify those who manage other people's retirement 
savings under ERISA must prioritize maximizing returns for a 
secure retirement, rather than political or social impact using 
risky ESG factors.
    Americans hard earned retirement savings should never be 
jeopardized by politically motivated mismanagement. 
Unfortunately, the Biden-Harris administration made this 
possible with an overreaching rule that allows fiduciaries to 
aggressively invest retiree's money in the ESG funds, which 
often charge steeper fees, carry higher risk, and have lower 
returns.
    The Protecting Prudent Investment of Retirement Savings Act 
would codify the retirement plan sponsors that is making 
investment decisions solely based on financial returns, 
ensuring American's hard-earned savings are invested sensibly.
    I look forward to discussing this legislation and other 
efforts to protect ERISA plan savings for retirement. With 
that, I yield to the Ranking Member for an opening statement.
    [The statement of Chairman Allen follows:]
    
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    Mr. DeSaulnier. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I want to 
thank the witnesses before the hearing, or the start of the 
hearing. Today's hearing is expected to focus on what is called 
the Environmental, Social, Governance, or ESG factors when 
making investments for retirement plans covered by ERISA.
    Let us be clear about what ESG factors are. If a company is 
exposed to certain risks such as sea level rise because of 
climate change, child labor violations, or a record of poor 
corporate governance or mistreating workers, its stock could 
suffer over time.
    Retirement plan professionals must consider a long-term 
horizon when making investment decisions, as workers often 
contribute for decades before drawing down on what they save.
    It should be considered a best practice for retirement plan 
professionals to appropriately weigh ESG factors appropriately. 
That premise should not be controversial, or at least Committee 
Democrats do not think it should be. It is prudent in the words 
of a former Republican President, ``Prudence.''
    There is no Biden-era mandate for retirement plans to 
invest in ESG funds. Let me repeat that. There is no mandate 
for retirement plans to invest in ESG funds. In fact, the 
Biden-era ESG Rule does not change the fiduciary standard to 
which professionals making investment decisions for retirement 
plans are bound.
    The rule has been upheld twice by a Federal District Court, 
most recently in February. In his opinion, the Judge who was 
nominated by President Trump, wrote that the Biden-era rule, 
``Does not violate ERISA's text because it never permits 
fiduciaries to deviate from exclusively achieving financial 
benefits for the beneficiaries alone.''
    To be clear, consideration of ESG factors is entirely 
consistent with making a profit. BlackRock, which is the 
world's largest asset manager, has stated that its, 
``Investment conviction is that incorporating sustainable 
related factors, which are often characterized and grouped into 
ESG categories into investment decisions can provide better 
risk adjusted returns to investors over the long term,'' from 
BlackRock.
    Last Congress the Committee considered two bills that would 
codify two rules from the first Trump administration that would 
establish needless barriers for the consideration of the ESG 
related investments in proxy voting. These bills were premised 
on the Republicans' mistaken view that they know best when it 
comes to ESG investing.
    Committee Democrats opposed these bills because we trust 
the professionals who are legally bound to make prudent 
decisions on behalf of retirement plan participants. Mr. 
Chairman, we just returned from a 2-week district work period, 
and I held several town hall meetings in the district I 
represent, a district that is the fifth wealthiest by household 
income in the United States.
    When I held several town halls with these constituents, 
people are concerned with the harm that's the Trump 
administration has been causing over the past 100 days, 
including to their investment portfolio.
    President Trump's reckless tariffs have spurred chaos in 
the financial markets. The Wall Street Journal reported that 
the Dow Jones has had its worst April performance since 1932. 
We remember what happened in 1932, which obviously matters for 
workers participating in ERISA covered retirement plans.
    JPMorgan Chase's CEO, Jamie Dimon, warned in his annual 
shareholder letter that tariffs will likely increase inflation, 
and cause many to consider greater probability of a recession. 
The Trump administration is also cutting thousands of jobs at 
the Social Security Administration and reducing access to phone 
service.
    This is anticipated to hurt the Agency's ability to serve 
the public and recipients of social security that they paid 
into, and that could amount to a backdoor cut as benefits 
delayed are often benefits denied. Meanwhile, Republicans in 
Congress still apparent on cutting Medicaid to help pay for the 
massive tax cuts for the rich.
    According to UC Berkeley Labor Center, California, could 
expect to see 10 to 20 billion fewer Federal dollars per year 
to Medi-Cal, our state's Medicaid program. The Labor Center 
estimates a loss of this magnitude could threaten healthcare 
for many of the nearly 15 million Californians currently 
enrolled in Medi-Cal, and it could lead to as many as 217,000 
job losses in the healthcare sector among other industries.
    Combined efforts of these policies will be devastating for 
retirees and low-income Americans. We can do better. I believe 
retirement security is fundamentally aligned with worker's 
wages. The more people earn, the easier it is for them to plan 
and save for retirement.
    It is incredibly hard for workers to do much on their own 
for retirement, when according to the Federal Reserve many 
would struggle to come up with the money to finance an 
unexpected $400 expense, such as a car repair or a medical 
bill.
    At a minimum, we must support policies that increase 
worker's wages and strengthen their ability to organize and 
collectively bargain. The data is clear that unionized workers 
have greater access to retirement plans and higher 
participation rates than our nonunionized counterparts, but we 
should not stop there.
    We must strengthen and protect Social Security. We also 
must address inequities and discriminatory barriers in the 
labor market. I hope we have a productive conversation this 
morning and focus on meaningful solutions for workers and 
retirement plan participants. I yield back.
    [The statement of Ranking Member DeSaulnier follows:]
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    Chairman Allen. I thank the gentleman for yielding. 
Pursuant to Committee Rule 8-C, all members who wish to insert 
written statements into the record may do so by submitting them 
to the Committee Clerk electronically in Microsoft Word format 
by 5 p.m., 14 days after this hearing.
    Without objection, the hearing record will remain open for 
14 days to allow such statements and other extraneous material 
noted during the hearing to be submitted for the official 
hearing record.
    I will now turn to the introduction of our four 
distinguished witnesses. Our first witness is Professor Max M. 
Schanzenbach, the Seigle Family Professor of Law at the 
Northwestern University Pritzker School of Law in Chicago, 
Illinois.
    Our second witness is Mr. Charles Crain, the Managing Vice 
President for Policy for the National Association of 
Manufacturers in Washington, DC. Our third witness is Mr. 
Brandon Rees, the Deputy Director, Corporations and Capital 
Markets for the American Federation of Labor and Congress of 
Industrial Organizations, AFL-CIO.
    Our last witness is Mr. Ike Brannon, the President for 
Capitol Policy Analytics, based here in Washington, DC. We 
thank the witnesses for being here today, and we look forward 
to your testimony. Pursuant to Committee Rules, I would ask 
that you each limit your oral presentation to a 3-minute 
summary of your written statement.
    The clock will count down from 3 minutes, as Committee 
members have many questions for you, and we would like to spend 
as much time as possible on those questions. Pursuant to 
Committee Rule 8D, and Committee practice, however, we will not 
cutoff your testimony until you reach the 5-minute mark. I 
would also like to remind the witnesses to be aware of their 
responsibility to provide accurate information to the 
Subcommittee.
    I will first recognize Professor Schanzenbach for your 
testimony.

   STATEMENT OF PROFESSOR MAX M. SCHANZENBACH, SEIGLE FAMILY 
 PROFESSOR OF LAW, NORTHWESTERN UNIVERSITY PRITZKER SCHOOL OF 
                     LAW, CHICAGO, ILLINOIS

    Mr. Schanzenbach. Good morning. Thank you for the 
opportunity to appear before you today. I am Max Schanzenbach, 
Seigle Family Professor of Law at Northwestern University. ESG 
investing under ERISA and trust law has been a focus of my 
research for several years.
    I have developed a healthy and informed respect for the 
regulatory framework of ERISA, which provides working Americans 
access to our deep and efficient capital markets, while 
protecting retirement savings for the imposition of fiduciary 
obligations.
    In my opinion, the Protecting Prudent Investment of 
Retirement Savings Act makes three important contributions to 
existing law, and I will spend a minute on each one. First, 
this legislation rightly clarifies that all investing 
strategies must be justified only based on financial or 
pecuniary benefit, which puts ESG investing on an equal footing 
with any other active investing strategy.
    There is a strange belief out there that ESG is magic, that 
somehow so-called ESG factors can be used to do good and 
improve risk and return without tradeoff, and that this will 
continue forever.
    That idea is contrary to long-standing financial theory, 
and experience in capital markets, yet this belief has misled 
many people, even some sophisticated actors, into believing 
that somehow fiduciary obligations are different under ESG 
investing. They are not.
    At the same time nothing in the legislation discourages 
risk and return ESG investing, investing for financial return 
based on ESG factors. Few would argue that mass toxic 
environmental torts, and other legal and regulatory risks are 
financially unimportant.
    Second, the bill continues to allow for the so-called tie 
breaker, a rare case in which nonpecuniary factors may be 
considered when two investments are otherwise financially 
equal. The bill requires enhanced documentation and provides 
greater clarity of language than present regulations.
    Enhanced documentation ensures that an ERISA fiduciary is 
loyal, always acting for the exclusive purpose of providing 
pecuniary benefits under the plan, a cornerstone of ERISA. 
Enhanced documentation also ensures that the tie breaker is 
credibly established and regularly assessed. This is the 
standard of care or prudence, another cornerstone fiduciary 
obligation under ERISA.
    The event of a tie between investment alternatives is 
unlikely, and it is even less likely that such a tie will 
continue to persist as economic conditions change. Given the 
rarity of tie breakers, placing the burden of proof on the 
fiduciary to establish one makes complete sense, and is a 
standard approach in fiduciary law.
    In addition, the bill clarifies essential language 
regarding a tie breaker, defining a tie between investment 
alternatives to be when pecuniary factors were not sufficient 
to choose between them, and requiring the choice to be 
consistent with the interests of the beneficiaries.
    The current regulation states that the two investments, by 
contrast, must equally serve, ``the financial interests of the 
plan.'' The problem with this language is that the plan does 
not have financial interests. Its beneficiaries do. They must 
be benefited by the investment choice.
    While I believe that a Court should read, ``financial 
interests of the plan to mean its beneficiaries,'' I am unsure 
of whether a Court will. Third, the legislation protects 
workers in qualified default investment alternatives, or QDIAs, 
by a simple prohibition against including any fund as a QDIA 
that considers non-pecuniary factors.
    The QDIA is where workers retirement funds are placed when 
the worker does not specify an investment when investing in 
defined contribution plans. In many, if not most plans, this is 
a majority of defined contribution savers. This protective rule 
is justified for two reasons.
    First, workers who default into a plan may be there because 
they have not put thought into their investment choices. As 
such, they are more likely than not, unaware of the social 
factors being used in a fund, and they may well disagree with 
them.
    Second, some investors may rely on the default option on 
the belief that the defaults are wisely chosen to provide 
diversification and appropriate risk and return. I thank the 
Subcommittee for the opportunity to testify, and I look forward 
to your questions.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Schanzenbach follows:]
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    Chairman Allen. I now recognize Mr. Crain for your 
testimony.

  STATEMENT OF MR. CHARLES CRAIN, MANAGING VICE PRESIDENT OF 
POLICY, NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF MANUFACTURERS, WASHINGTON, D.C.

    Mr. Crain. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member 
DeSaulnier, and members of the Subcommittee. My name is Charles 
Crain, and Im the Managing Vice President of Policy at the 
National Association of Manufacturers. More than 85 percent of 
manufacturing workers are eligible to participate in a 
workplace retirement plan.
    These Americans have probably never heard of a proxy 
advisory firm, and they likely would be shocked to hear that 
their pension or 401K plan assets could be used in a way that 
could undermine their own retirement security. Publicly traded 
manufacturers though, have long understood the risk that proxy 
advisory firms pose to everyday Americans retirement security.
    Public companies, after all, are the targets of proxy 
firm's one size fits all governance standards. Manufacturers 
have to counter proxy firms' errors, their outside influence, 
their political agendas, and manufacturers are intimately 
familiar with proxy firm's conflicts of interest, such as when 
companies have to pay ISS for consulting services in order to 
avoid a negative ISS recommendation.
    Manufacturers, of course, also face pressure from ESG 
activists who pursue political and social agendas at the 
expense of the business and its shareholders. Whether companies 
push back or fall in line, these market actors' outside 
influence is, at best, a distraction for more productive uses 
of time and capital.
    At worst, it is a real threat to business growth and 
shareholder returns, which ultimately undermine the risks of 
beneficiary's retirement security. In the ERISA context, the 
institutions that are hiring proxy firms are in many cases 
doing so to help them vote the shares held by the ERISA plan.
    Similarly, institutions that are voting in favor of ESG 
shares or proposals or pursuing ESG investments, may be 
managing ERISA plan assets. To put it simply, using plan assets 
to pursue nonfinancial ESG goals, or blindly outsourcing the 
voting power that comes with those plan assets to unregulated 
and conflicted proxy firms represents a significant threat to a 
fiduciary's obligations under ERISA.
    That is why manufacturers support appropriate guardrails to 
ensure that ERISA fiduciaries are acting in plan participants 
best interests when making investment and voting decisions. The 
DOL, during the first Trump administration, finalized rules to 
do just that. One rule required fiduciaries to make investing 
decisions based solely on pecuniary factors.
    Another required appropriate due diligence when it comes to 
ERISA plans proxy voting, and use of proxy advisory firms. 
Unfortunately, as this has been discussed, the Biden 
administration largely rescinded both of those rules. Just last 
Chairman Allen introduced legislation to codify the reforms 
from the first Trump administration.
    This bill is crucial because the sole duty of ERISA 
fiduciaries is to provide long-term returns that support 
manufacturing workers and their families in their retirement 
years. Now is the time for Congress and the DOL to stand up for 
these workers and ensure that ERISA plans are operating in 
their participant's best interest.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Crain follows:]
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    Chairman Allen. Thank you, Mr. Crain. Next, I recognize Mr. 
Rees for your testimony.

   STATEMENT OF MR. BRANDON REES, DEPUTY DIRECTOR, AFL-CIO, 
                         WASHINGTON, DC

    Mr. Rees. Chair Allen, Ranking Member DeSaulnier, thank you 
for the opportunity today to testify on behalf of the AFL-CIO 
and our 15 million union members. In recent years, we have seen 
a politicization of retirement plan investment decisions, but 
this is not coming from fiduciaries, rather, certain 
politicians have sought to turn the investment decisions of 
retirement plan fiduciaries into a culture war issue.
    Specifically, these political attacks seek to limit the 
freedom of retirement plan fiduciaries to make investments and 
devote proxies by considering environmental, social and 
governance, or ESG risks.
    While prudent experts may reasonably disagree over the 
importance of ESG risk to investment returns, these differing 
views are an inherent part of our capital markets, where 
investors trade securities based on their differing investment 
views, time horizons and risk tolerances.
    The Protecting Prudent Investment of Retirement Savings Act 
is the latest example of this misguided effort to prohibit ESG 
investing. If enacted, this bill will restore the first Trump 
administration's flawed attempt by the Department of Labor to 
distinguish between so-called pecuniary and nonpecuniary 
factors when making investments.
    These previous rules were impermissibly vague because there 
is no universally accepted definition of what is a pecuniary 
versus a non-pecuniary consideration. This distinction is the 
financial equivalent of debating how many angels can dance on 
the head of a pin.
    This misguided bill also effectively disenfranchises 
retirement plans from voting proxies. Since the Reagan 
administration, retirement plan fiduciaries have been 
encouraged by the Department of Labor to manage proxy votes as 
a plan asset, subject to ERISA's fiduciary duties.
    The Chairman's bill reverses this Reagan-era ERISA 
interpretation by imposing an unworkable prohibition on casting 
proxy votes that promote so-called nonpecuniary benefits and 
requiring a burdensome economic cost benefit analysis before 
voting. As a result, ERISA fiduciaries will be coerced into 
abstaining from voting, thereby silencing the ownership voice 
of retirement plan participants and beneficiaries in our 
capital markets.
    We also note that the bill's proposed restrictions on proxy 
voting by private sector retirement plans is patently 
unconstitutional. Proxy voting is a form of free speech, and 
imposing a burdensome requirement on proxy voting regarding ESG 
issues is a clear First Amendment violation. Given that proxy 
votes are valuable assets, compelling retirement plans to give 
them up is a taking without just compensation under the Fifth 
Amendment.
    Congress should not be playing politics with workers 
retirement savings. Legislative proposals to restrict the 
freedom of private sector retirement plans to invest in vote 
proxies have more in common with a totalitarian command economy 
than a free market system. We urge Congress to address the 
genuine retirement security issues that we face in our Nation, 
rather than paranoid delusions about so-called woke ESG 
investing by retirement plan fiduciaries. Thank you.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Reese follows:]
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    Chairman Allen. Last, I recognize Mr. Brannon for your 
testimony.

    STATEMENT OF MR. IKE BRANNON, PRESIDENT, CAPITOL POLICY 
                  ANALYTICS, WASHINGTON, D.C.

    Mr. Brannon. Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member, thank you very 
much for the invitation to be here. The last time I testified 
in this room my daughter threw up on my tie right before I came 
here, and I had to borrow the tie of one of the staffers here, 
so R.J. if you are watching, I will bring your tie back.
    I just want to emphasize the records that will be submitted 
for the record that I just wanted to say two things about ESG 
investing in general, based on some research I did with Robert 
Jennings, a former colleague of mine, when I was a Professor at 
Indiana University.
    You know, the first point is, look, everybody who is making 
their own investment decisions has every right to consider 
whatever factors they want in making their decision, but I do 
think it is problematic when fiduciaries start taking into 
account things that might not be pertinent to long-term 
economic growth, and I think that is what has been going on 
with ESG.
    The first point I would like to make is that the research 
suggests that the idea that there is no loss from ESG investing 
is, I believe, mistaken. The first point is that if you look at 
the typical ESG fund, the management fee is significantly 
higher than it is for the typical index fund. You know, the 
beauty, as all of this in this room probably have money in TSB, 
the beauty of TSB is that its management fees are close to 
zero.
    The typical ESG fund has, according to Morningstar, has a 
management fee of about .1 percent higher than other funds. The 
analysis I did with Professor Jennings suggested that it is 
probably closer to one quarter percentage point. The second 
thing to think about in terms of the problem with ESG investing 
is that not only does it have a higher management fee because 
decisions have to be made about what stocks are and are not 
included into a fund.
    Instead of in the next fund, where you automatically go 
with the market index, when you have to regularly make 
decisions about what does and does not belong based on long-
term decisions of these companies. The other problem is that as 
you--and this is almost a physics rule, the more you narrow a 
portfolio necessarily, the higher the risk, and the lower 
return you are going to get, right?
    This is a point that Matt Levine has made all the time, a 
former columnist for Bloomberg News. If you are leaving out 
entire sectors of the economy, you are going to be missing 
something of what is going on. Then the last point I would like 
to make is people think, well one tenth of a percentage point, 
or one quarter of a percentage point does not seem like a very 
big deal, but you know, thanks to the miracle of compound 
interest over the 30 or 40 year career of a worker, that is 
actually quite big.
    A friend of mine, Jason Fuhrman, who was head of the 
Council of Economic Advisors for the Obama administration put 
out a study in 2016 looking at the Fiduciary Rule where he 
observed that if you talk about a quarter point reduction in 
the rate of return, you are talking about a reduction in total 
retirement wealth upon retirement of about 10 to 12 percent.
    I think the excuse that these things might be quite small 
is no excuse to pursue this, thank you.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Brannon follows:]
   [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

    

    Chairman Allen. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Brannon. Under 
Committee Rule 9, we will now question witnesses under the 5-
minute rule. I will recognize myself for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Crain, in July 2020--in a July 2020 letter to the 
Department of Labor, the National Association of Manufacturers 
wrote that many ESG focused funds have a stated goal of 
subordinating investor return or increasing investor risk for 
the purpose of achieving political and social objectives.
    Why isn't the only appropriate objective for an ERISA 
retirement plan ensuring that the participants have a sound and 
secure retirement?
    Mr. Crain. For manufacturing workers who are depending on 
an ERISA plan, whether it is a defined benefit or defined 
contribution plan, they need that plan, and their families need 
that plan to be there for them when they retire.
    If you are an ERISA fiduciary, and you are making decisions 
on behalf of that plan, whether it is what investments to 
choose, how to vote the proxies, or whether to rely on a proxy 
firm, you need to be making those decisions in the best 
interests of those plan participants, so that the plan savings, 
the plan's assets are there for them when they retire. That is 
absolutely the bedrock of ERISA.
    Chairman Allen. You mentioned, my bill, the Protecting 
Prudent Investment Retirement Savings Act, what protections 
does that bill provide?
    Mr. Crain. Your bill would require that ERISA plan managers 
make decisions based on plan participants best interests, both 
by investing based only on pecuniary factors, which are those 
that are relevant to the long-term performance of those assets, 
and ensuring that those fiduciaries are undertaking appropriate 
due diligence when it comes to both proxy voting and potential 
use of service providers like proxy firms.
    Both of those steps will be critically important to 
protecting ERISA beneficiaries' retirement security.
    Chairman Allen. Professor Schanzenbach, the term pecuniary 
comes from a unanimous Supreme Court decision that outlines the 
duty of loyalty. That decision states that ERISA's requirement 
to act for the exclusive purpose of providing benefits means 
financial benefits, such as retirement income.
    Can you explain why pecuniary is the right term to govern a 
fiduciary's investment decision?
    Mr. Schanzenbach. Yes. I think an important part of the 
statute of the proposed bill provides a definition of what a 
pecuniary factor is, and it ties it back to risk and return, 
right? It focuses the fiduciary's attention, which should be 
laser focused on risk and return, and it cabins off anything 
that is not affecting risk and return.
    It is hard enough to make investment decisions and build a 
plan menu and monitor the plan menu and pushing the fiduciary 
to say we are only going to focus on financial factors is, I 
think, sound policy. It is also most consistent with prevailing 
understandings of ERISA in the law right now.
    Chairman Allen. Yes, and it is common sense as well.
    Mr. Schanzenbach. I do not disagree.
    Chairman Allen. Professor, some ERISA defined contribution 
plans allow participants to direct their investments from a 
menu of investment options. Is this menu constructed and 
maintained by ERISA plan fiduciaries, and if so, how is it 
constructed and maintained?
    Mr. Schanzenbach. The--I do not think ERISA specifies an 
exact process, but I can probably give you an answer from sort 
of what best practices are at the moment. When you are creating 
a defined contribution plan, typically the employer appoints an 
investment committee, who are ERISA fiduciaries, they may be 
employees of the firm.
    Then they often retain an investment advisor to advise them 
on the construction of the plan. It is not just constructing 
the plan that's important, it is the ongoing monitoring too. If 
you are offering a mutual fund that has been offering sub-par 
returns, you have a fiduciary obligation to remove it.
    If you find a product that is similar or equal, but has a 
lower fee structure, you may have an obligation to put that 
into the plan and, so, creating a structure where there is 
typically quarterly meetings and a professional investment 
advisor, is how that is executed.
    Chairman Allen. If a participant instead chooses to make 
his investment selections through a brokerage window, why 
should that participant be informed that the plan's investment 
experts have not selected the investments in the brokerage 
window as being appropriate for a retirement savings portfolio?
    Mr. Schanzenbach. Right. I think that is an important part 
of this legislation that I do not think has been spoken to yet. 
There is something called a brokerage window, which allows plan 
participants to--and it depends on the scope of the window. You 
can broaden it to individual stocks, or you can keep it limited 
to just classic, mutual funds.
    It allows a participant to go outside the plan menu that 
has been constructed by this investment committee with the 
advice of the investment advisor, and then they are sort of on 
their own. It is no longer a curated plan, and so, the bill as 
I understand it, continues to allow people to do that, but it 
puts what I would call like a consumer warning label on their 
decision to do so.
    I think one important part of that label is that it warns 
them that they may pay higher fees. I mean one advantage of 
these plans is that, you know, you may have a lot of money in 
an individual mutual fund because of all the participants 
choosing, and you get a lower fee as a result. You get a volume 
discount essentially.
    When you go outside, you are probably paying essentially a 
retail fee. One of the--and I can say this anecdotally, there 
is evidence that people sometimes use this window, and they 
kind of pick something very similar, or maybe even identical to 
what is in the plan, but they just pay a higher fee.
    At least giving them that warning that they are leaving 
something that has been curated under fiduciary obligations, 
and that has probably a lower fee structure is I think helpful.
    Chairman Allen. Okay. Great. Well, I yield back. I am out 
of time, and I am going to call on Mr. Courtney for questions.
    Mr. Courtney. Thank you, Mr., Chairman, and thank you to 
the witnesses for being here today. I must say there is 
something kind of surreal about this hearing today. There 
definitely is a lot of concern out there by our constituents, 
in terms of their retirement security, but what they are 
concerned about is watching this economy get lit on fire by the 
reckless policies of this administration.
    We are seeing it unfold in real time as we are sitting here 
right now. This morning's GDP numbers came out for the first 
quarter. For the first time in 3 years, our economy contracted. 
If you look again at the stock market, you can look on your 
phone right now, I mean every indicator, S&P, Nasdaq, S&P Dow 
are all down.
    What is really disturbing is that the yield on bonds is 
going up, I mean, which is not normal in terms of what happens 
when equities go down. Investors usually shift to U.S. paper, 
to U.S. bonds, but unfortunately, we are seeing a really 
disturbing trend of where investors are actually moving away 
from U.S. paper, or U.S. bonds, and the job numbers that came 
out this morning from ADP, the private labor market trackers, 
shows that in the month of April 62,000 job increased, really 
one of the lowest numbers since the end of the pandemic.
    This is all sort of happening right now. We all know why. 
It is because of the reckless tariff policies that have been 
put into place. One of Mr. Crain's members from Connecticut, 
Stanley Black and Decker this morning announced that they are 
raising the price of the iconic ``Made in America'' tools.
    The headquarters is in my colleague's district in New 
Britian, Connecticut, by high single digits because of tariffs. 
okay. This problem is not slowing down, it is not just a 
passing phase, it is actually gaining momentum.
    To quote Mr. Crain, ``Congress should stand up for 
workers.'' What we should do is claim our Article I powers to 
basically control tariff policy and grab the steering wheel 
away from the executive branch.
    This is happening today in the Senate. They are taking up a 
measure to use under the Emergency Powers Law that the 
President cited, to take back Congress's authority under 
tariffs. Speaker Johnson and the Republican majority in the 
House should join that effort, in terms of again, protecting 
the retirement savings of our constituents.
    Like Mr. DeSaulnier, when I was home, and I am sure the 
rest of my colleagues, they heard a lot about what is happening 
to people's 401K plans, you know, burning up because of policy, 
not because of external factors, not because of economic, you 
know, catastrophes, but because of policy decisions that are 
being made in Washington.
    The attack on Social Security is just another layer of 
insecurity that is being added here. Mr. Rees, on that point, I 
mean through, you know, World Wars, through recessions, through 
the crash in 2009, through the pandemic, the one pillar for 
retirement security in this country has actually been the 
Social Security system.
    When we talk about again, your constituents, and working 
families in general, I mean this attack in terms of hollowing 
out the infrastructure of the Social Security, which DOGE has 
been conducting, and having Elon Musk calling it a Ponzi 
scheme, and something that he wants to ``eliminate,'' which he 
said on Fox News.
    Can you talk about what that means to working families in 
this country, in terms of retirement security?
    Mr. Rees. Thank you for the question, Congressman. You are 
absolutely right that this is going to be devastating for the 
retirement security of working people. The Social Security 
Administration's staffing levels at the lowest level currently, 
prior to these cuts that we have seen in 50 years.
    We have got working people who are applying for Social 
Security benefits across this country queuing up in line trying 
to get their hard earned benefits because of these reckless 
cuts that Elon Musk and DOGE have been making, all for the 
purpose of saving money to fund President Trump's tax cuts for 
rich billionaires like Elon Musk. That is unacceptable, and we 
need to stop it.
    I thank you for calling for Congress to assert its Article 
I powers to take back authority from President Trump to restore 
these jobs and restore our public sector employees.
    Mr. Courtney. Thank you. Again, I have a lot of respect for 
the Chairman. This is a legitimate issue that we can debate, 
but honestly, it is like fiddling while Rome burns, in terms of 
what the real threats to retirement security is. I yield back.
    Chairman Allen. I thank the gentleman. I now recognize the 
gentleman from Florida, Mr. Fine.
    Mr. Fine. Well, thank you. Thanks for putting me at the 
front of the line. I am not sure what I did to deserve that. It 
is my first opportunity to ask questions and thank you all for 
being here. My perspective on this notion is that, you know, 
the stock markets you invest in the long haul.
    Before I was a politician, that is certainly what I did. I 
was reasonably good at making money, not so good at politics. 
While I understand the concerns about tariffs, I think the 
President is trying to fundamentally reorder how economics 
work. Apparently, tariffs are a great idea when other countries 
do them, they are just a terrible idea when we choose to 
respond.
    I am still trying to figure that one out. I want to focus 
on the subject matter here of ESG, and Mr. Rees, you talked a 
lot about politicization and paranoid delusions. I want to make 
sure that I do not have any of those. My father is someone who 
is a public employee, he was a professor for many years. He 
benefited from owning these funds.
    It is what drives his retirement, and fortunately he 
benefits now. He is 76 years old, but as he went through his 
career and those funds were invested on his behalf, do you 
think there are any times when an investment manager should 
make a decision on how to invest those funds that is driven by 
anything other than what would maximize the returns that he 
would get when he needs those funds, or should financial 
returns be the sole criteria that a financial manager should 
use to be making those financial decisions?
    Mr. Rees. Congressman, it has been clear since ERISA was 
passed in 1974 that the primary duty of fiduciaries is to 
maximize risk adjusted investment returns in order to protect 
the retirement security of plan participants and beneficiaries. 
They may also consider collateral benefits under the all things 
being equal test, that was previously referenced in the 
Professor's testimony.
    Mr. Fine. You said primary duty. What would their secondary 
duties be? That implies if there is a primary duty, there are 
other duties that they have other than making sure that my 
father gets the maximum return when it was time for him to 
retire.
    What are those secondary duties that they have that they 
should be spending their time on, other than making sure that 
my father and other public employees like him get as much money 
as they can? What are those secondary duties that they should 
have?
    Mr. Rees. Well, ERISA establishes fiduciary duties for 
retirement plan fiduciaries, which is the duty of loyalty, the 
duty of prudence, the duty to diversify portfolio assets, and 
the duty to follow plan documents.
    Mr. Fine. Yes, well diversity of investments will be part 
of maximizing return. If you put all your eggs in one basket, I 
think you are taking a pretty big risk. Can you think of any 
examples ever--so, if I am an investment manager, I just want 
to make sure I understand. I do not want paranoid delusions.
    Can you think of any example ever? An investment manager 
sits down, and he has got those funds, and his job is to 
maximize that for the benefit of those workers who are doing 
their jobs, and hoping that when they get to 65, or whenever it 
is they have those funds, should they ever think about anything 
other than maximizing the return that they are making, you 
know, some feel good social, environmental benefits that may or 
may not be good things, or not.
    Should they ever say, you know what, I could maximize. I 
can make a little bit more money for the people who are 
depending on us. I am not going to do that because of these 
environmental or social, or you would agree they should never 
think about environmental or social issues if that would take 
away from the maximization of the return that they would get on 
that investment?
    Mr. Rees. Well, ESG issues are often relevant to financial 
considerations, and I will give you a real-life example. 
Tesla's stock price peaked after President Trump's election 
last November, however, since Elon Musk has gotten involved in 
politics, Tesla's customers have been appalled.
    They have been appalled by his alleged Nazi salute at 
Inauguration Day. They have been appalled by his involvement in 
the Department of Government Efficiency. As a result, Tesla's 
earnings fell by 71 percent in the first quarter of this year.
    Its stock price fell by 36 percent in the first quarter, so 
I ask you, Congressman, how should a retirement plan fiduciary 
weigh the controversial political activities of Elon Musk?
    Mr. Fine. Great question. I actually am a three-time owner 
of a Tesla. It is the car that I drive. I bought them when 
apparently it was not cool for conservatives to own Tesla's, 
apparently now it is. My colleagues in the Florida legislature 
gave me a hard time back then about doing it.
    I actually was there in the arena when Elon Musk made the 
arm movement that so many Democrat politicians seem to make all 
the time, and no one seems to be bothered by that. I would note 
that as a Jewish member of the legislature, I find the notion 
that it was a Nazi salute to be quite offensive.
    That aside, if the investment manager believes that Elon 
Musk's activities are going to have a deleterious effect on the 
stock performance, then that would be a reason for them not to 
invest, but it would not be because of economic, it would not 
be because of environmental or social reasons, it would be of 
those things.
    I will wrap up with this. I see my time wrapping up. It is 
your position that investment managers should always be 
investing always in order to maximize performance. There is 
never a reason when they should not?
    Mr. Rees. Absolutely.
    Mr. Fine. Okay. Thank you.
    Chairman Allen. The gentleman's time has expired. I 
recognize now the gentleman from California, Mr. Takano.
    Mr. Takano. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you to the 
witnesses for being here. Mr. Rees, why is considering 
environmental, social and governmental factors, or otherwise 
ESG, important when making long-term investment decisions? Turn 
your mic.
    Mr. Rees. Thank you. ESG factors are financially relevant 
to financial performance, and it would be the equivalent of 
sticking your head in the sand to ignore environmental, social 
and governance risks when making investment decisions.
    Mr. Takano. A majority of fiduciaries agree with you. 
Recent surveys found that 90 percent of institutional 
investors, 85 percent of chartered financial analysts, take 
environmental, social and governmental, or ESG factors into 
account when making investment decisions.
    Mr. Rees, what are the risks of ignoring the ESG factors 
when making long-term investment decisions?
    Mr. Rees. Well, ERISA requires that fiduciaries act as a 
prudent expert would act under similar circumstances, and as 
you noted, prudent experts in our capital markets consider ESG 
risks all the time because they are financially material to 
investment returns.
    Mr. Takano. Thank you. In recent years there has been a 
heightened politicization of retirement plan investment 
decisions. It has been the subject of several Committee 
hearings and markups, and multiple Court cases. Let me 
reiterate, the current Biden Rule, which has stood up to 
multiple Court challenges, merely permits ESG factors to be 
considered when making investment decisions.
    Nothing in the current rule obligates ESG investing. Mr. 
Rees, is this politicization of ESG factors coming from 
fiduciaries?
    Mr. Rees. No.
    Mr. Takano. It is not. Attacks on ``woke'' have gone beyond 
merely banning books or asserting curriculum control. Now, it 
seems to me that politicians are reaching into American's 
retirement accounts and investment portfolios to make sure that 
no one is investing their money in a manner which does not 
align with a certain ideology.
    I would like to use my remaining time to talk about some 
factors that are having real time impacts on retirees' 
investments. President Trump's policies have resulted in the 
highest market volatility since the COVID pandemic. A week and 
a half ago, the Wall Street Journal suggested that the Dow 
Jones Industrial Average was headed for its worst April 
performance since 1932.
    Mr. Rees, what impact has the stock market volatility had 
on the retirement investments and pension plans of your 
constituency?
    Mr. Rees. Well, it has been devastating. President Trump's 
Liberation Day announcement of reciprocal tariffs erased six 
trillion dollars in market capitalization from the stock 
market. It threw the bond market into a tailspin.
    Mr. Takano. Let us be clear, who is your constituency?
    Mr. Rees. I represent the AFL-CIO. We support tariffs, but 
not how President Trump is implementing them on an ad hoc and 
arbitrary basis that is undermining investor confidence in the 
United States.
    Mr. Takano. They are members of labor unions, they are 
working men and women. Thank you. Yesterday republicans on this 
Committee advanced their budget reconciliation proposal that 
makes pathways out of student debt far less successful. Last 
week, the republicans on the Energy and Commerce Committee are 
expected to gut Medicaid.
    Will these republican budget reconciliation measures 
improve outcomes for retirees?
    Mr. Rees. No. It will be devastating.
    Mr. Takano. Let me close by underscoring this. Retirees are 
facing immediate, dire consequences to their financial health 
because of the policies of this administration, yet we are 
spending our committee time restricting fiduciaries from using 
the decisionmaking tools at their disposal, simply because the 
majority here might not agree with them.
    I want to ask all Americans would you like more politicians 
involved in your financial planning? Should the members of this 
Committee be making the decisions for you, or would you prefer 
to trust the experts? I yield back, Mr. Chairman.
    Chairman Allen. I thank the gentleman, and I now recognize 
the gentlelady from Connecticut, Ms. Hayes.
    Mrs. Hayes. Thank you. Everybody deserves to retire with 
dignity, and we have had several hearings, so I welcome the 
opportunity to continue to do that. Individuals and their 
trusted advisors should be free to make investment decisions 
that best reflect their values and offer them the highest 
return on investment.
    Environmental, social and governance factors, or ESGs, can 
encompass a wide range of risks and opportunities in an 
investment portfolio. Workers may not want their savings to go 
toward a company that is polluting the environment, diverting 
resources from struggling neighborhoods, or violating labor 
laws.
    In 2020, the Trump administration issued a rule which 
limited the consideration of ESG factors in retirement plans 
governed by the Employee Retirement Income Security Act, or 
ERISA.
    In 2022, the rule, in my opinion, was correctly reversed by 
the Biden administration, ensuring that fiduciaries can focus 
on all relevant factors when making investment decisions for 
their clients. Trump administration and Republicans on this 
Committee are pursuing many culture wars that offer investors 
that do not offer investors real choices when deciding how 
their savings will be used for retirement.
    Mr. Rees, in your testimony you said enforcement of the 
Trump Rule would impose undue regulatory burdens on retirement 
plan fiduciaries. Can you discuss how ESG related factors are 
sometimes necessary considerations for retirement investors, 
and can you elaborate a little on how enforcement of the 2020 
ESG Rule would be costly for investors?
    Mr. Rees. Thank you for the question, Congresswoman. ERISA, 
since it was enacted, it has regulated the investment process 
for fiduciaries in making investment determinations. It has not 
dictated the investment decisions, or prohibited, or required 
specific types of investments.
    That has been true in our capital markets since the 1950's, 
since modern portfolio theory was developed. Prior to modern 
portfolio theory, investors and fiduciaries were required to 
invest in a legal list, which permitted investments. There was 
government control over fiduciary decisionmaking.
    Now, that was not in the best interest of plan participants 
and retirees because the prudence of a portfolio should be 
evaluated as a whole and not based on the individual investment 
securities. ESG risks are real, and they do have a material 
impact on investment returns.
    Be that climate change, respect for human rights, or 
corporate governance issues like excessive executive 
compensation.
    Mrs. Hayes. Exactly, and I think that how investments are 
made matters. Tesla is a perfect example. I heard my colleague 
say it is no longer cool to drive a Tesla. I think people still 
appreciate lower emissions, or electric vehicles, or being 
environmentally conscious, but it matters how we do that.
    It matters how companies operate, and how they engage with 
communities, so the product is not what is at--that people are 
at odds with, it is the company that people are at odds with. 
In 2023, there were over 143,000 Social Security beneficiaries 
in my district, including more than 14,000 disabled workers, 
and 7,000 children.
    The administration, with many of the cuts led by Elon Musk 
and DOGE, has laid off 7,000 workers within the Social Security 
Administration, and is closing field offices across the 
country. How have these cuts and lay-offs under this 
administration impacted the millions who rely on programs 
administered by the Social Security Administration?
    What can we do to increase retirement benefits for American 
workers?
    Mr. Rees. Half of all working Americans in the United 
States do not have access to a retirement plan through their 
employer. They do not have an individual retirement account. 
For these workers, they depend 100 percent on Social Security 
for their retirement security after a lifetime of hard work.
    Cutting the Social Security Administration is effectively a 
benefit cut by frustrating the ability of working people to 
receive their hard-earned social security benefits. The fact 
that these cuts are being made for the sole purpose of tax cuts 
for rich billionaires like Elon Musk, is simply unconscionable.
    Mrs. Hayes. Thank you. Again, how these things are being 
done matters because what I am hearing at home is the 
unpredictability and the uncertainty. People are asking 
questions that are not being answered, and that is quite 
frankly, scaring the American people. With that, I yield back.
    Mr. Walberg [presiding]. I thank the gentlelady, and I 
recognize myself for 5 minutes for questioning, and thanks to 
the panel for being here. Professor Schanzenbach, Congress 
enacted ERISA to protect the benefits of American workers.
    Under ERISA, as you know, investment fiduciaries have a 
duty to invest exclusively for the purpose of providing 
benefits and defraying reasonable expenses under the plan.
    Why is this duty so important in protecting retirement 
benefits?
    Mr. Schanzenbach. The fiduciary duties are pushing the 
investment committee, the people that have discretion to invest 
ERISA assets, to focus laser like on risk and return. Without 
that, there is less guidance for these fiduciaries, and they 
may choose to follow policy preferences of their own without 
consideration of the benefits for the workers.
    Mr. Walberg. Could you discuss whether it would violate 
ERISA's cornerstone duty of loyalty for an investment 
professional to be motivated to produce a benefit, or a third 
party, or to be motivated by his or her own sense of ethics 
when investing someone else's retirement benefits?
    Mr. Schanzenbach. Right. I think I can answer this by a 
pretty simple example. We all understand the duty of loyalty 
means that a fiduciary cannot reach into the retirement pot and 
take out $50 for himself, nor can he reach in and take out $50 
and give it to a favorite charity, okay?
    We understand that that is self-dealing, that is a 
violation of fiduciary obligation. It is no different if the 
fiduciary impairs the investment returns so as to produce that 
same benefit for third parties. It is all a breach of the duty 
of loyalty and has been widely understood to be such in trust 
investment law for generations.
    Mr. Walberg. Yes, a point to ponder and to remember, yes. 
Thank you. Mr. Crain, the Protecting Prudent Investment of 
Retirement Savings Act would caution investment fiduciaries 
against considering so-called ESG factors, unless these factors 
have a financial impact on plan performance.
    Please, if you would, explain the importance of retirement 
plan participants being able to trust that their long-term 
savings will be protected over any other considerations so that 
they can enjoy a stable sense of retirement.
    Mr. Crain. More than 85 percent of manufacturing workers 
are eligible to participate in a workplace retirement plan. 
These are, as the Subcommittee knows, defined benefit, defined 
contribution plans governed by ERISA. Their sole goal in 
participating in those retirement plans is that those assets, 
those benefits, will be there for them when they retire.
    It is absolutely crucial that the folks who are managing 
those plans are doing so in a way to maximize the retirement 
savings, the retirement security, of the participants. In this 
context what that means is making investment decisions based 
solely on pecuniary factors that are designed to maximize that 
retirement security.
    Mr. Walberg. Okay. Thank you. Mr. Brannon, you wrote in a 
comment letter that, and I quote, ``Because of the miracle of 
compound interest,'' my dad talked about that, ``even small 
gains in returns can't over three or four decades that a person 
saves for retirement, produce significant gains in wealth.''
    What are your views on whether investment professionals 
managing retirement savings should be chosen based exclusively 
on the qualifications to manage these investments?
    Mr. Brannon. Let me talk about this in a context about the 
Pension Protection Act, which was passed in 2006, when I was a 
staff economist on the Senate Finance Committee. One of the 
things we struggled with was what the default investment was 
going to be at the time.
    I am not sure we got it right, but one of the things that 
everybody on both sides clearly wanted is to make sure that 
those were passive investments because everyone understands 
that if you have an index fund, or something that is not 
actively managed, that is when you get the lowest fees.
    I think everybody understood at the time that allowing 
something to be actively managed, and most ESG funds kind of 
fall into that category, that is going to cost you something 
because you are going to have to pay a management fee.
    You know, it is a study I cited by Jason Fuhrman, that even 
very small, even a .25 percentage point difference in rates of 
return can, over a lifetime, diminish the amount of savings 
by--final savings by as much as 10 percent.
    Mr. Walburg. Significant impact, so.
    Mr. Brannon. Yes.
    Mr. Walburg. Yes. Well, thank you. I now recognize--I 
recognize the Ranking Member of the Full Committee, Mr. Scott 
from Virginia.
    Mr. Scott. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Brannon, 
you have talked about the average fees and returns. Do some ESG 
funds charge lower fees than some non-ESG funds?
    Mr. Brannon. Yes. In general, ESG fees charge more than the 
typical index fund.
    Mr. Scott. On average, are there some ESG funds that charge 
less than some non-ESG funds?
    Mr. Brannon. To my knowledge there are no--so, if you look 
at TSP, which probably most of us participate in, if you have 
an index fund at TSP it charges almost nothing. In fact, I 
think it is now----
    Mr. Scott. You found one low fund. There are no non-ESG 
funds that charge more than any ESG funds?
    Mr. Brannon. Sure. There are probably--there are some ESG 
funds that charge less than some actively managed funds.
    Mr. Scott. Okay. Do some ESG funds have higher historic 
returns than some non-ESG funds?
    Mr. Brannon. Yes.
    Mr. Scott. Then why should the lower fee, higher return ESG 
funds be excluded from plans where the higher fee, lower 
returns be included?
    Mr. Brannon. This gets back to the point I was talking 
about with Chairman Walberg, is that if people are not making 
active retirement decisions, and probably the majority of 
people who enter into a retirement fund are not making an 
active decision, right?
    You are making some kind of default. You want that default 
to be in something that is safe and is going to get the 
highest, long-term rate of return, and that is where passively 
managed funds enter in general.
    Mr. Scott. You could have a higher fee actively managed 
non-ESG fund as the default?
    Mr. Brannon. It is possible, but that is not what 
pensions----
    Mr. Scott. It would be legal. If some do not want ESG 
factors to be considered at all, if you are investing in a real 
eState development, should it be illegal to consider 
environmental factors, such as whether or not the development 
will be under water in 20 years because of environmental 
factors?
    Mr. Brannon. I think that can be done, and is done, without 
having to resort to the metrics in an ESG fund.
    Mr. Scott. Well, you have to consider environmental 
factors. Mr. Rees, are there studies about returns and fees on 
ESG funds that you are aware of?
    Mr. Rees. Yes, Congressman.
    Mr. Scott. Can you tell us the results of some of those 
studies?
    Mr. Rees. Yes, so in my written testimony I cite a study 
that reviewed over 2,000 academic papers, and it found that 
only 10 percent found a negative relationship between ESG and 
corporate financial performance. A majority of those studies 
reviewed found positive findings.
    If I may respond to Mr. Brannon's testimony, it is 
misleading to compare actively managed ESG funds to index 
funds. I would point out that the selection of index funds is, 
and also effect, it can also take into consideration ESG 
metrics.
    I would point you to President Trump's Secretary of Labor, 
Eugene Scalia, decision in 2020 when he ordered the Federal 
Retirement Thrift Savings Investment Board to reverse his 
decision to invest in an international stock index that 
included Chinese equities.
    In taking this action, presumably the Secretary did not 
intend to subordinate the interest of Federal workers to the 
non-pecuniary goal of national security. Now, does Congress 
want to prohibit private sector retirement plans from making a 
similar decision?
    Mr. Scott. Can you discuss some of the high fee private 
equity investments of cryptocurrency investments that have 
higher fees than ESG funds?
    Mr. Rees. Yes. It is deeply ironic that Republicans would 
seek to prohibit actively managed ESG funds in retirement plans 
and 401K plans at the exact same time that they are pushing for 
expensive, risky, private equity investments to be permitted in 
401K plans.
    It is hypocritical, and it is not good retirement security 
policy.
    Mr. Scott. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. Walberg. I thank the gentleman, and I personally want 
to wish you a happy birthday, and many more.
    Mr. Scott. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. Walberg. I now recognize the Chairman Emeritus of this 
Committee, as well as the Chair of the Rules Committee, Ms. 
Foxx.
    Mrs. Foxx. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and happy birthday 
Bobby. Thank you. I want to thank our witnesses for being here 
today too. Mr. Crain, why were ERISA fiduciaries allowed to 
delegate such critical decisions, such as Board selection and 
policy decisions to proxy advisory firms that are not bound by 
ERISA's duties of prudence and loyalty, and may instead promote 
politically motivated ESG goals?
    Mr. Crain. Thank you for that question. I think it goes 
straight to the heart of the first Trump administration's DOL 
Rule, and Chairman Allen's legislation. Proxy advisory firms 
are conflicted; they are under regulated.
    They have specific agendas that they utilize their voting 
power to achieve, and it absolutely undermines ERISA 
fiduciaries obligations if they are blindly outsourcing their 
voting decisions to those proxy advisory firms.
    Mrs. Foxx. Thank you. What transparency exists around the 
criteria proxy advisory firms use to make voting 
recommendations, and how do we know these criteria prioritize 
fiduciary duty over ideological preferences?
    Mr. Crain. Frankly, there is very little, if any at all, 
transparency around how proxy advisory firms determine their 
standards for public companies, and then how they make their 
voting recommendations. In fact, the easiest way to find out is 
to pay them a consulting fee if you are a public company, which 
illustrates the clear conflicts of interest that they have.
    Mrs. Foxx. Thank you. Professor Schanzenbach, given the 
potential for lower returns from ESG investments, should 
fiduciaries be required to explain to participants the long-
term financial consequences of these choices on their 
retirement savings?
    Mr. Schanzenbach. Well, I think I would have to distinguish 
between whether they are using ESG factors to improve risk and 
return, in which case they just have to continue to monitor 
those chosen funds, or that chosen investment to make sure it 
is fulfilling that promise. If it stops, it needs to drop the 
investment.
    If it is a non-pecuniary factor that is being used, I think 
it is just basically prohibited under the duty of loyalty, and 
then the only knife edge point is the question of this tie 
breaker, which the bill still permits, so I hope that is 
responsive.
    Mrs. Foxx. If participants in ERISA plans are unwilling to 
invest in ESG options, should they have the right to opt out of 
these investments entirely, or are they effectively being 
forced into supporting politically driven agendas with their 
retirement savings?
    Mr. Schanzenbach. Well, I think that is one of the 
protective features of the duties of loyalty and care under 
ERISA. You can think of the duty of loyalty as a process, 
sorry, as a motive test. The fiduciary has to be offering this 
option, or making the investment because it thinks it is in the 
best financial--best pecuniary interests of the beneficiary.
    Then the care issue arises as a process test, and they 
follow a reasoned process, and have a reasoned explanation for 
why they chose to offer that particular investment. Even if 
they think for example, initially, that it is a tie, and they 
can satisfy with the additional documentation, that it was in 
fact a tie, which is I think something of a unicorn.
    Assuming that they do that, they have to continue to 
monitor that investment over time, and given that financial 
factors, you know, the economy changes so rapidly, it is 
unlikely to be a tie indefinitely, and so then they would have 
to follow a process to remove it from the investment options, 
or divest from the investment when they make that conclusion.
    Mrs. Foxx. Thank you. Mr. Brannon, is it not misleading for 
participants to be funneled into ESG investments through 
brokerage windows without clear warnings that these choices are 
not overseen by fiduciaries, and may harm their retirement 
savings?
    Mr. Brannon. I would say that any time people are not 
making an active decision, and the money is just being put into 
some kind of default, they should be made aware of what their 
investments are going into, and the risk entailed, and whether 
or not they are going into funds that might have a lower rate 
of return.
    Mrs. Foxx. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, I yield 
back.
    Mr. Walberg. I thank the gentlelady. Now, I recognize the 
gentleman from New York, Mr. Mannion.
    Mr. Mannion. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Today's hearing is 
fundamentally about choice, about whether fiduciaries charged 
with maximizing retirement security under ERISA can consider 
all relevant information when making investment decisions.
    Environmental, social and governance factors are not 
ideological preferences. They are additional datapoints that 
can impact the company's long-term performance.
    I want to make one thing clear. Nobody here is suggesting a 
mandate to prioritize ESG information over financial returns. 
Simply permitting ESG considerations under ERISA is by no means 
pushing an agenda, but arbitrarily restricting it is.
    When we are talking about long-term investments, of course, 
fiduciaries should be able to factor in things like climate 
risks and unfair labor practices.
    Frankly, the fact that we are having this hearing stems 
from misconceptions, if not outright misrepresentations. 
Meanwhile, the administration has spent the first 100 days 
actively weakening retirement security, undermining faith in 
Social Security and Medicare, sowing doubt in those very 
systems, while imposing erratic tariff policies that have sent 
401K balances tumbling.
    If we are serious about protecting America's retirement, we 
should start by holding the administration accountable. Mr. 
Rees, could you please elaborate on how that accountability can 
and should occur, including as it relates to congressional 
oversight?
    Mr. Rees. Yes, Congressman. It is vitally important that 
Congress assert its Article I powers over the Federal budget to 
restore funding for the Social Security Administration, and 
rehiring our dedicated public servants, whose jobs are to 
ensure that working people receive the Social Security benefits 
that they have earned through a lifetime of hard work.
    Mr. Mannion. Thank you. What do you make of these continued 
discussions around ESG, considering the much larger issues that 
we are currently facing as a country related to personal 
financial security, retirement planning, and our economy in 
general?
    Mr. Rees. It is a distraction meant to distract us from 
what is really happening, which is tax cuts for billionaires, 
and cuts to the services that working people depend on in 
government.
    Mr. Mannion. Thank you so much. I yield back, Chairman.
    Mr. Walberg. I thank the gentleman. I recognize the 
gentlelady from Pennsylvania, Ms. Lee.
    Ms. Lee. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Proxy voting in 
shareholder meetings is an issue of economic freedom and 
worker's access. I do not usually often take that stance, but 
in this particular instance it is undeniably true.
    Prohibiting proxy voting in ERISA plans is a way of 
shutting the boardroom doors to low-and middle-income 
Americans, and marginalized folks, and locking these workers 
out of a fair opportunity for financial freedom.
    Shareholder meetings are of course where companies make the 
big decisions, like whether to make a large acquisition, or who 
should be on the company's board of directors, executive 
compensation schedules, and other significant changes in 
corporate operations or policies.
    These decisions impact a company's bottom line, and if you 
own a share, or a portion of a share of a company's stock, that 
decision impacts your bottom line too. That is also true if you 
are a stock shareholder through your work's retirement plan, 
whether that be a 401K, qualified union pension plan, or 
another ERISA covered plan.
    Most working-class Americans who invest in stocks do so 
through a retirement plan. If you have an employer-sponsored 
retirement plan, that plan is managed on your behalf, so 
historically the person that manages your employer or union 
sponsored retirement plan, has been able to attend these 
critical shareholder meetings, and vote on behalf of, and in 
the best interest of the shareholders they represent.
    This gives workers, working folks, a seat at the table to 
ensure that their retirement money is protective. Mr. Rees, 
could you please provide examples of instances when proxy 
voting benefits participants and beneficiaries? Yes.
    Mr. Rees. Thank you, Congresswoman. You are absolutely 
right that proxy voting is vital to protecting the retirement 
security of working families, and that is because CEOs do not 
always get it right.
    Ms. Lee. Really.
    Mr. Rees. My counterpart, Mr. Crain, represents the 
National Association of Manufacturers. As far as CEOs are 
concerned, every time shareholders vote against the management, 
the recommendations of corporate management, that is an error 
or a wrong vote or was advised by a conflicted proxy voting 
advisor.
    It is just unacceptable that the Chairman's bill would 
silence those working people's voices in the capital markets, 
through their retirement plan by imposing burdensome red tape 
prior to voting.
    This bill requires fiduciaries to do an economic cost 
benefit analysis prior to casting proxy votes. It is far 
cheaper and simpler to just decide how you are going to vote. I 
do not understand why the majority wants to disenfranchise 
private sector retirement plans. It is unconstitutional, and it 
is going to hurt the retirement security of working people as 
you described.
    Ms. Lee. Proxy voting clearly benefits plan participants 
and beneficiaries, and as some of my colleagues have shown 
today, that considering ESG corporate environments, social and 
governance practices does too. When we talk about whether a 
company should reinvest the 20-million-dollar profit into a 
business, or the CEO's salary, that impacts workers retirement 
money.
    Mr. Rees, in your testimony you discuss how proxy voting is 
really an issue of freedom. Congressional Republicans seemingly 
want to put their thumb on the scale and limit the freedom of 
retirement plan fiduciaries to consider ESG factors when making 
investment and proxy voting decisions.
    Would you please elaborate on that? Tell us about the 
history of investment mandates.
    Mr. Rees. Yes. The freedom for retirement plans to vote 
proxies is an inherent part of our free market system in which 
private actors decide how corporations are run. Investors, 
including workers' retirement plans, make those decisions, not 
the government, and not politicians.
    Our State corporate laws assume that shareholders will be 
voting proxies. If you do not vote proxies, if shareholders did 
not vote proxies, directors would not be elected, executive 
compensation plans would not be approved, mergers and corporate 
transactions could not be approved, and shareholders would be 
deprived from voting on environmental, social, and corporate 
governance shareholder proposals.
    That would hurt the retirement security of working people, 
and it has more in common with the totalitarian command 
economy, where the government controls how investors make 
investments and cast proxy votes, than it does with the free 
market system.
    This rule that fiduciaries need to be voting proxies 
consistent with the interest of retirement plan participants 
and beneficiaries, not in the interest of corporate CEOs, as 
represented by the National Association of Manufacturers, was 
adopted by Ronald Reagan's Department of Labor.
    Ronald Reagan, who defended the free market system, and yet 
today the majority in this Congress seeks to silence those 
private sector retirement plan votes, and their freedom to 
invest.
    Ms. Lee. Well, and I will let us end on that note because 
time does fly, but I thank you so much for your testimony 
today, and I yield back.
    Mr. Walberg. I thank the gentlelady. I now recognize the 
Ranking Member of this Subcommittee, Mr. DeSaulnier from 
California.
    Mr. DeSaulnier. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Rees, I have 
mentioned in my opening comments about the analysis that you 
see that the cuts to Medicaid based on what CBO, and I will add 
in a previous hearing of this Subcommittee, the Chairman and I 
got into a little disagreement about what the budget, and what 
will actually happen and is happening in Energy and Commerce 
right now.
    The cuts to Medicaid that I quoted also from the Kaiser 
Family Foundation analysis of the effect on worker's benefits, 
and specifically healthcare. 65 percent of people who receive 
Medicaid of working age are working full-time, another 20 
percent work part-time. Of the remaining 15 percent, almost 10 
percent are caregivers for family members.
    What does that kind of cut in addition as we are talking 
about, protecting benefits and real information, how does that 
have downstream effects, and lose 220,000 jobs in California, 
according to the analysis by the University of California.
    What is the downstream effect on the cuts to Medicaid if 
E&C does not identify how they will protect that as some of my 
colleagues have promised that they will?
    Mr. Rees. Thank you for the question, Congressman. As a 
Berkeley alumni, let me first say Go Bears. Over 70 million 
working people in the United States are enrolled in Medicaid. 
Cutting this vital program will leave millions uninsured.
    Being uninsured means foregoing preventative health, and 
increasing medical debts, which is the leading cause of 
personal bankruptcy in the United States.
    Moreover, these cuts will push healthcare costs from the 
uninsured onto health and welfare plans in the form of 
increased hospital costs from uncompensated care. Nearly one-
fifth of all hospital revenue comes from Medicaid, and the loss 
of this revenue will be passed on to insured patients.
    It is simply unconscionable in my view that these cuts will 
be made just to pay for tax cuts for billionaires.
    Mr. DeSaulnier. To followup on that, these people are 
working, so for adding required paperwork and bureaucracy for 
them to prove that they are working to get Medicaid. I remember 
in California when I was Chair of the Labor Committee, we got 
in a disagreement with the Schwarzenegger administration where 
they were saying there is so much fraud in support system basic 
needs.
    The LAO came back and said you are spending more money on 
preventing fraud than we have identified in fraud. This seems 
like a similar situation where the majority is suggesting all 
this paperwork and bureaucracy to prove that you are working, 
when we already know they are working in order for them to 
continue to get Medicaid.
    Mr. Rees. That is right, Congressman. It is essentially an 
effort to deprive working people of access to health insurance, 
and that is going to hurt not just working people, it is going 
to hurt our economy as whole, as our working age population is 
less healthy being deprived from preventative care, and also 
creating tremendous economic uncertainty for working families 
who are faced by crushing medical debt.
    Mr. DeSaulnier. That is on top of the hearings we have had 
in this Committee about the erosion of employer/employee 
healthcare plans, where the number of denials on usually 
accepted claims has gone way up in the last 5 years. Let us 
talk a little bit about Social Security.
    If we cut Social Security staff, the people who are at 
working age who are supplementing, and we know this has grown 
in this country, older Americans have to work, so how does that 
affect, if you cannot get through to Social Security, the 
retirement system, and people who are working but are eligible 
for Social Security?
    Mr. Rees. Well, it is a benefit cut. It is a cut. If you 
are unable to get your promised Social Security benefits 
because Elon Musk's DOGE has cut the Social Security 
Administration employment, that is going to affect our economy 
as a whole. It is also going to affect the retirement security 
of working people.
    More than half of working people in this country do not 
have a retirement plan. They do not have an individual 
retirement account. They depend exclusively on Social Security 
in order to provide for secure retirement after a lifetime of 
hard work.
    For us to be talking about cutting the Social Security 
Administration, as is currently happening under President 
Trump, is going to create a deep hole for working people, who 
are being deprived from their hard-earned Social Security 
benefits.
    Mr. DeSaulnier. We were talking about information right 
now, so people can get a reasonable expression of analysis, 
whether it is by the right or the left about investments. Jamie 
Dimon, as I mentioned, said that this administration's policy 
on tariffs will increase inflation, is more likely to add a 
recession. Can you briefly comment on that?
    Mr. Rees. Yes. President Trump's Liberation Day tariff 
announcement, it effectively liberated 6 trillion dollars in 
stock market valuation, including from millions of working 
people's retirement accounts.
    Mr. DeSaulnier. Thank you. I yield back.
    Chairman Allen. Okay. Thank you, again, to all of our 
witnesses for their testimony. I believe we have wrapped up 
questioning now, and I will ask the Ranking Member, do you have 
a closing statement?
    Mr. DeSaulnier. I do, Mr. Chairman. I want to thank the 
witnesses again, and just say there should be nothing 
controversial about ensuring retirement plan fiduciaries are 
permitted to consider ESG factors, just like they appropriately 
weigh the other risks and benefits for investments.
    At a minimum, Congress should not put its thumb on the 
scale, and disenfranchise retirement plan fiduciaries from 
considering ESG factors, or voting proxies. They are not. House 
republicans are bound by law to make prudent investments for 
plan participants.
    Mr. Chairman, I ask unanimous consent to enter into the 
record the following items, a report by the Shareholder Rights 
Group entitled Shareholder Proposals, An Essential Investor 
Right.
    Chairman Allen. Without objection.
    [The information of Mr. DeSaulnier follows:]
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    Mr. DeSaulnier. No. 2, the Wall Street Journal article I 
mentioned entitled, DOW Headed for Worst April since 1932, as 
Investors Send No Confidence Signal.
    Chairman Allen. Without objection.
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    Mr. DeSaulnier. Actually, No. 3, BlackRock's comment later 
expressing support for ESG investing.
    Chairman Allen. Without objection.
    [The information of Mr. DeSaulnier follows:]
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    Mr. DeSaulnier. Thank you. A report from the Joint Economic 
Committee Democrats entitled Trump's Tariff Plans Would Drive 
Up Costs for Families and Shrink the Economy.
    Chairman Allen. Without objection.
    [The information of Mr. DeSaulnier follows:]
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    Mr. DeSaulnier. Last, a statement on today's hearing from 
the Americans for Financial Reform Education Fund.
    Chairman Allen. Without objection.
    [The information of Mr. DeSaulnier follows:]
    

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    Mr. DeSaulnier. I want to thank the Chair. Mr. Chairman, we 
are 100 days into this new administration, and workers and 
families in the district I represent, and around the country 
are tired of the chaos and turmoil and the thoughtless policy. 
The President's reckless tariffs are destabilizing financial 
markets, raising prices, and threatening a recession.
    Social Security is under siege, and the House Republicans 
are plowing forward with their plan to cut taxes for the rich, 
and pay for it by making college more expensive, and gutting 
Medicaid. That is not progress, and we can do better. We are 
better than this. I yield back.
    Chairman Allen. I thank the Ranking Member for your closing 
statement, and again, I want to thank the witnesses for your 
testimony. Obviously, you know, we have brought up a lot of 
interest in, you know, what the administration is trying to do 
here. I will note that at Election Date in November 2024, the 
national debt had increased for that year to date 2.35 trillion 
dollars.
    I will also note that during the previous administration, 8 
trillion dollars was spent and added to this economy, borrowed 
funds. That does not include the other dollars that were spent 
and doled out to consumers to buy products and what not, to I 
guess shore up the economy.
    As of today, the debt to date is about 1.6 trillion, and 
we, you know, by my calculation, that is a savings of about 600 
billion dollars. Anybody in this room that thinks that we can 
sustain that, I would like to have a solution. It is 
impossible. 37 trillion in debt. Now, you know, we all need to 
take responsibility for that, okay? I am not passing the torch 
one way or the other.
    Something has got to be done. The other thing is we are 
running trillion-dollar trade deficits, trillion dollars. That 
is money going right out the door. We are enriching other 
countries. If you look at the trade situation, are we okay with 
them charging us multiple tariffs, and they can do business 
here at will?
    You know, again, somebody has got to take this on. We can 
talk about the implications and everything else, but it has got 
to be fixed because it is unsustainable. Wealth is pouring out 
of this country, and it must stop because ,yes, our retirement 
is at risk.
    Now, what is going to be interesting is right now we are in 
transition. This economy is in transition from a government 
funded GDP, to a privately funded GDP. There was a war on oil 
and gas. We have now unleashed oil and gas. It is going to take 
more than 100 days for those guys to crank up and get with it 
because just 6 years ago we had the greatest economy in the 
history of our lifetime.
    This administration, the current administration, was able 
to pull that off. You know, we can talk about this right now, 
but again, you know, these things have to be addressed, along 
with what we are talking about here as far as retirement and 
the future of America. It needs to be an all-in cumulative 
effort to make this happen.
    You know, you have got to reduce--we have got to balance 
this budget, and we have got to pay this debt off because we 
cannot continue to put this burden on the future of our 
children and grandchildren. It is clear, a good man leaves an 
inheritance for his children's children, and I am just glad to 
be a part of it.
    I am glad to be able to work with my great colleagues here, 
as we look to solutions to make this happen. A big part of that 
is retirement plans, ERISA, and I want to thank our witnesses 
for your expert testimony today. The Biden administration ESG 
Rule ignores the current law and judicial precedent.
    Under ERISA, a retirement plan fiduciary must act solely in 
the interest of the participants and beneficiaries, and for the 
exclusive purpose of providing benefits to participants and 
their beneficiaries and defraying reasonable expenses.
    Republicans are committed to protecting the retirement 
savings of workers, retirees, and their families. I look 
forward to continuing to work with all members of the Committee 
on providing American workers a secure retirement. With that, 
this hearing is adjourned.
    [Whereupon, at 11:48 a.m., the Subcommittee on Health, 
Employment, Labor, and Pensions was adjourned.]