[House Hearing, 119 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]


                     COUNTING THE MONEY: PREVENTING
                     FRAUD AND ABUSE IN VA'S BONUS
                   PAYMENT PRACTICES FOR VA EMPLOYEES

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

                       SUBCOMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND 
                              INVESTIGATIONS

                                 OF THE

                     COMMITTEE ON VETERANS' AFFAIRS

                     U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS

                             FIRST SESSION

                               __________

                         TUESDAY, JULY 22, 2025

                               __________

                           Serial No. 119-32

                               __________

       Printed for the use of the Committee on Veterans' Affairs
       
[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]       


                    Available via http://govinfo.gov
                    
                                __________

                   U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE                    
61-506                   WASHINGTON : 2025                  
          
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------     
                   
                     COMMITTEE ON VETERANS' AFFAIRS

                     MIKE BOST, Illinois, Chairman

AUMUA AMATA COLEMAN RADEWAGEN,       MARK TAKANO, California, Ranking 
    American Samoa, Vice-Chairwoman      Member
JACK BERGMAN, Michigan               JULIA BROWNLEY, California
NANCY MACE, South Carolina           CHRIS PAPPAS, New Hampshire
MARIANNETTE MILLER-MEEKS, Iowa       SHEILA CHERFILUS-MCCORMICK, 
GREGORY F. MURPHY, North Carolina        Florida
DERRICK VAN ORDEN, Wisconsin         MORGAN MCGARVEY, Kentucky
MORGAN LUTTRELL, Texas               DELIA RAMIREZ, Illinois
JUAN CISCOMANI, Arizona              NIKKI BUDZINSKI, Illinois
KEITH SELF, Texas                    TIMOTHY M. KENNEDY, New York
JEN KIGGANS, Virginia                MAXINE DEXTER, Oregon
ABE HAMADEH, Arizona                 HERB CONAWAY, New Jersey
KIMBERLYN KING-HINDS, Northern       KELLY MORRISON, Minnesota
    Mariana Islands
TOM BARRETT, Michigan

                       Jon Clark, Staff Director
                  Matt Reel, Democratic Staff Director

              SUBCOMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND INVESTIGATIONS

                   JEN KIGGANS, Virginia, Chairwoman

AUMUA AMATA COLEMAN RADEWAGEN,       DELIA RAMIREZ, Illinois, Ranking 
    American Samoa                       Member
JUAN CISCOMANI, Arizona              TIMOTHY M. KENNEDY, New York
KEITH SELF, Texas                    HERB CONAWAY, New Jersey

Pursuant to clause 2(e)(4) of Rule XI of the Rules of the House, public 
hearing records of the Committee on Veterans' Affairs are also 
published in electronic form. The printed hearing record remains the 
official version. Because electronic submissions are used to prepare 
both printed and electronic versions of the hearing record, the process 
of converting between various electronic formats may introduce 
unintentional errors or omissions. Such occurrences are inherent in the 
current publication process and should diminish as the process is 
further refined.
                         C  O  N  T  E  N  T  S

                              ----------                              

                         TUESDAY, JULY 22, 2025

                                                                   Page

                           OPENING STATEMENTS

The Honorable Jen Kiggans, Chairwoman............................     1
The Honorable Delia Ramirez, Ranking Member......................     3

                               WITNESSES
                                Panel I

Ms. Tracey Therit, Chief Human Capital Officer, Office of Human 
  Resources and Administration, Operations, Security, and 
  Preparedness, Veterans Health Administration, U.S. Department 
  of Veterans Affairs............................................     6

        Accompanied by:

    Mr. David Perry, Chief Officer, Workforce Management and 
        Consulting, Veterans Health Administration, U.S. 
        Department of Veterans Affairs

Mr. Shawn Steele, Director of the Human Capital and Operations 
  Division, Office of Audits and Evaluations, Office of Inspector 
  General, U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs...................     7

Dr. Sheila Elliott, President, Local 2328, American Federation of 
  Government Employees...........................................     9

                                APPENDIX
                    Prepared Statements Of Witnesses

Ms. Tracey Therit Prepared Statement.............................    25
Mr. Shawn Steele Prepared Statement..............................    27
Dr. Sheila Elliott Prepared Statement............................    36

 
                     COUNTING THE MONEY: PREVENTING
                     FRAUD AND ABUSE IN VA'S BONUS
                   PAYMENT PRACTICES FOR VA EMPLOYEES

                              ----------                              


                         TUESDAY, JULY 22, 2025

             Subcommittee on Oversight and 
                            Investigations,
                    Committee on Veterans' Affairs,
                             U.S. House of Representatives,
                                                    Washington, DC.
    The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:08 p.m., in 
room 360, Cannon House Office Building, Hon. Jen Kiggans 
[chairwoman of the subcommittee] presiding.
    Present: Representatives Kiggans, Radewagen, Self, Ramirez, 
Kennedy, and Conaway.

          OPENING STATEMENT OF JEN KIGGANS, CHAIRWOMAN

    Ms. Kiggans. I would like to welcome the members, 
witnesses, and audience to this hearing for the subcommittee on 
oversight and investigations. I appreciate my colleagues on the 
dais and the witnesses for being here to discuss the chronic 
issue of improper recruitment, retention, relocation, and 
incentive payments. These are commonly referred to as the 3R's. 
These incentives are tools provided to the U.S. Department of 
Veterans Affairs (VA) by Congress to attract and retain quality 
staff and positions that are consistently vacant or identified 
as difficult to fill. While many Federal agencies can use these 
incentive payments, they are particularly helpful for an agency 
like the VA whose mission is to provide complex services and 
quality health care to veterans across the entire country. 
These incentives are designed to be a part of a benefits 
package for positions in markets that are difficult to hire in, 
like specialist physicians, nurses, and social workers in rural 
areas. Congress gave Federal agencies the ability to pay these 
incentives so that government entities like the Veteran Health 
Administration can be competitive in attracting and keeping 
quality healthcare professionals in a labor pool that is facing 
staffing challenges across the country. As a nurse 
practitioner, I understand these challenges firsthand.
    Unfortunately, recent reports have shown that these funds 
have been proven to be paid out with very little oversight. 
While this hearing was organized after the release of the June 
2025 Office of Inspector General (OIG) report on the VA's poor 
oversight of these incentive payments, the problems we will 
discuss today are not new to the VA. In fact, in 2017 the OIG 
released a similar report detailing oversight issues with 
recruitment, relocation, and retention incentive payments. 
Based on the OIG's oversight work stretching back to July 2014, 
the 2017 and--the 2017 OIG report identified the need to 
improve controls over the use of these incentives. Having found 
that the VA did not properly authorize 33 percent of the 
retention incentives that were awarded to senior executives. 
The improper payments found in 2017 totaled more than $158 
million in unsupported spending.
    As a result, the OIG made recommendations that the VA 
develop internal controls to monitor policy compliance and 
decrease the VA's reliance on retention incentives. Now, here 
we are in July 2025 confronted with the same issues that the VA 
has failed to improve since the first report. The only 
difference is that now there is even more taxpayer dollars 
involved. For example, between 2020 and 2023, relocation 
payments grew by 85 percent, and retention payments have grown 
by 131 percent, while recruitment bonuses have ballooned by a 
staggering 237 percent. I believe anyone would agree that these 
numbers are alarming when there is little data to back up the 
massive increases. The 2025 report acknowledged that after the 
initial report VA implemented processes to improve 
authorization and review controls for the payments. However, VA 
employees inconsistently followed them. This made the good 
government improvements virtually useless. In response to the 
2017 OIG audit, quality assurance teams were created at both 
the Office of Human Resources (HR) and Administration, 
Operations Security and Preparedness, and the Veterans 
Integrated Service Network (VISN) level. However, the 2025 OIG 
report found that while these teams identified errors, they did 
not address systemic issues in the request and authorization of 
incentives, did not proactively prevent incentive packages from 
being processed and paid based on insufficient justifications.
    Additionally, the OIG found that 28 employees continued to 
receive annual retention incentives for many years after the 
initial award period expired. In one case, an employee 
continued to receive annual incentive awards for more than 11 
years after the initial award period. In total, the VA 
improperly paid these employees a total of about $4.3 million. 
Between 2020 and 2023, more than 134,000 employees received 
incentive payments totaling $1.2 billion. 341 million of those 
incentives were found by the OIG to be improperly documented. 
The lack of documentation also hinders review efforts by 
oversight bodies like the OIG, the U.S. Government 
Accountability Office (GAO), and this committee.
    I echo what the OIG said in the report that the required 
documentation helps provide assurance that incentives are 
properly used and effective oversight of incentives also 
requires sufficient documentation for review. In fact, OIG 
noted that much of the data used in the report relied on 
projections due to the VA's sparse documentation. I found it 
shocking in the report that when cases of waste, fraud and 
abuse were discovered, the VA's implementation of established 
processes did not always guarantee that the issues were 
appropriately resolved. The 2025 report cited an example where 
Veterans Health Administration (VHA) awarded $30,000 in 
relocation payments for an employee who never relocated. The 
employee was a remote worker teleworking from home. When 
someone receives a relocation incentive and never actually 
relocates, that is wrong and a clear waste of taxpayer dollars. 
Despite this clear case of impropriety, the VHA declined to 
recoup the payments that were made to this employee. These are 
taxpayer dollars set aside for veterans and for far too long 
they have been carelessly handled. I am excited to hear the 
Trump administration's plan to not only satisfy the OIG's 
recommendations but their plan to make real, unnecessary 
improvements, and corrections in how the VA manages and 
oversees their incentive programs. The status quo is not 
acceptable and we will continue to push the VA to make 
improvements that lead to better care outcomes for the veterans 
that are receiving VA services. I look forward to working with 
Secretary Collins and his team to right the ship and create 
real change at the VA.
    I now recognize Ranking Member Ramirez for her opening 
comments.

       OPENING STATEMENT OF DELIA RAMIREZ, RANKING MEMBER

    Ms. Ramirez. Thank you, Chair Kiggans. Today's hearings 
topic is critically important. We are examining the use and the 
oversight of the ``3R's incentives'' at VA. Recruitment, 
retention, and relocation bonuses. The so called 3R's help VA 
attract talent. Earlier this month, Secretary Collins 
celebrated the VA will lose nearly 30,000 employees by the end 
of the fiscal year. I find that despicable. I want to be clear. 
Every VA employee is mission critical. Every VA employee 
ensures veterans get the care and benefits they have earned and 
deserve. If we care about veterans' care and services, it is 
more important than ever that we discuss how the VA keeps 
employees.
    As Secretary Collins deconstructs, decimates, and 
demoralizes the workforce. Veteran care is already being 
negatively impacted by the destruction of the VA workforce. For 
instance, we know that doctor appointments for veterans have 
been canceled due to staffing shortages. We know this because 
veterans have told us themselves. How do we course correct? How 
do we ensure the VA has a workforce it needs to support the 
care veterans have earned and deserve? First, we have to ensure 
that the VA is a place where people feel valued, not disposable 
and not attacked. As a former executive director of a nonprofit 
organization, I know that public sector agencies like the VA 
and nonprofit organizations cannot compete with the private 
sector in terms of salary in many places across the country. In 
tough markets, 3R's incentives help make VA offer more 
competitive wages. They are a tool to attract and retain highly 
qualified employees to the agency. I understand that this 
hearing is meant to focus on the VA Inspector General's 
findings from report released earlier this summer that the VA 
needs more oversight of 3R's incentives. I do not disagree that 
the VA must be a good steward of taxpayer dollars and that we 
must ensure that the correct employees are receiving the 
correct pay for the correct period of time. No objection, no 
disagreement there.
    At the same time, we must ensure that the VA's oversight of 
the 3R's incentives does not make them a more burdensome and 
less useful tool for leaders who need them to recruit and to 
retain staff. We need to hold two objectives at the same time. 
The process must work and it must allow to be competitive by 
working quickly and efficiently. If we do not meet both of 
these goals, I fear that greater layers of bureaucracy may 
disincentivize leaders from offering 3R awards. I look forward 
to hearing from our witnesses today about how we can strike a 
balance to ensure 3R incentives are being used properly, 
efficiently, and routinely. I am going to show a series of 
posters with data pulled directly from the VA's workforce 
dashboard published on June 27th, 2025. Numbers do not lie. We 
can see here a sharp decline in both recruitment and retention 
since Secretary Collins took the helm. The VA has seen an over 
45 percent reduction in job applicants this year compared to 
last year. VA saw an over 56 percent reduction in new employees 
actually starting jobs. The VA lost 4,144 employees in mission 
critical occupations as defined by the VA since the beginning 
of this fiscal year. Compare that to the Biden administration 
only losing 111 employees in mission critical occupations 
during the same period in 2024. As of losing 4,100 employees in 
VA designated mission critical occupations was not bad enough, 
I want you guys to take a closer look at how many employees 
Secretary Collins has lost in some key veteran facing roles. To 
be clear, these numbers are not net losses. They are net 
losses, not just normal attrition. The numbers we are looking 
at account for any new hires. Again, these are positions that 
are not subject to the hiring freeze and were exempt from the 
Deferred Resignation Program (DRP). What you are seeing is that 
since the start of this fiscal year, the VA has lost a net of 
1,720 registered nurses, 1,147 medical support assistants, 604 
physicians, 193 police officers, 77 psychologists, 358 social 
workers, 1,081 veteran claim examiners, 868 custodial workers. 
By its own data, the VA has had over 7,500 employees in veteran 
facing roles leave their jobs this Fiscal Year and their 
positions have not been backfilled.
    How can Secretary Collins look at us and at veterans with a 
straight face and say that veterans care has not been affected 
by staffing changes when he has lost at least 7,500 veteran 
facing employees? The numbers we are looking at and their 
impact on veteran care is upsetting. If you are not mad yet, 
just take a look at our next poster so we can get a sense of 
why these employees have left the VA. Reasons for leaving, a 
series of concerns, for example, geographical relocation, 
desired work schedule not offered, lack of trust and confidence 
in senior leaders. Again, lack of trust and confidence in 
senior leaders from social workers, medical and dental are 
talking about the work schedule offered does not work for their 
ability to serve the veterans. Then you see over and over and 
over lack of trust and confidence in senior leaders, lack of 
trust and confidence in senior leaders. You also see here from 
contracting officers unethical behavior on the part of 
leadership or the organization. That is why medical and dental, 
general administration, psychologists, social workers, HR 
specialists, HR assistants, cemetery caretakers, Veterans claim 
exam, processing personnel, contracting officers, and 
Information Technology (IT) specialists are leaving. Any 
quality leader I know who got this feedback in their exit 
interview would do some serious self-reflection. The VA has a 
failure of leadership crisis and Secretary Collins is to blame. 
Secretary Collins accuses us of fear mongering and lying when 
we raise the alarm that veteran care is being impacted. But 
these numbers do not lie. There is just no possible way that VA 
could lose 7,500 veteran facing employees without care being 
impacted. The Secretary could turn the ship around to attract 
and maintain more employees to care for veterans and the 3R 
incentives are one of those tools. He is not because he does 
not want to turn the ship around. He is committed to 
destructive collision course. Let us look at the dashboard even 
closer.
    Just take a look at the reduction in the use of The 
Sergeant First Class Heath Robinson Honoring our Promise to 
Address Comprehensive Toxics (PACT) Act authorities like 
recruitment and retention incentives from year 2024 to year 
2025. Last year during the Biden administration, retention 
incentives were used nearly 20,000 times. This year, under 
Collins and Trump, only 7,000 times. Recruitment incentives 
were used 6,000 times in year 2024, but they have barely used 
them 1,000 times this year. Take a look at this number. Special 
Contribution Awards. These are used when a VA employee goes 
above and beyond the call of duty when caring for veterans. 
When Biden was president, nearly 30,000 special contribution 
awards were given to VA employees. Under Collins, barely 7,000 
awards have been made. Here is the bottom line. It is not that 
VA employees are less meritorious than they were under Biden. 
It is that no matter what the VA employees do, they will never 
really receive 3R awards because the Trump administration, 
through Secretary Collins, wants them to leave. They want every 
employee to be pushed out so they can decimate the VA's 
workforce and destroy it in order to justify privatizing the 
VA. Secretary Collins has made VA employees his target and in 
doing so has targeted veterans who rely on VA for their care 
and benefits. Yes, it is more important than ever that we do 
everything we can to keep VA employees working and caring for 
our veterans. Secretary Collins tenure at the VA has been one 
of torment. For months, VA employees have worried they would 
lose their jobs and livelihood through Reduction in Force 
(RIF). Now Secretary Collins promises that a ``Large-scale 
RIF'' is off the table for the time being. We all remain 
concerned that if he is leaving the door open to eliminate 
positions through the reorganization and consolidation, and 
veterans worry that their service and care will be impacted by 
the changes in the VA workforce. Well, veterans are right. How 
can we expect to provide high quality services through a 
robust, talented workforce under these kinds of conditions? 
Again, the instability, the uncertainty, the volatility is the 
point. Veterans deserve a VA that they can rely on. Secretary 
Collins is undermining the VA and its workforce at every chance 
he gets. It is why I look forward to our conversation today and 
hearing for our witnesses.
    With that, I yield back.
    Ms. Kiggans. Thank you, Ranking Member Ramirez. I will now 
recognize the witnesses testifying before us today. We have Ms. 
Tracey Therit, chief human capital officer, Human Resources and 
Administration, welcome back. Mr. David Perry, chief officer, 
Workforce Management and Consulting, Veterans Health 
Administration. Mr. Shawn Steele, the director of the Human 
Capital and Operations Division, Office of Audits and 
Evaluations of the Office of the Inspector General. Dr. Elliot, 
Dr. Sheila Elliot, president for the American Federation of 
Government Employees (AFGE) Local 2328. Welcome. If the 
witnesses will please stand for me and raise your right hand. 
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to 
provide is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 
truth?
    [Witnesses sworn.]
    Ms. Kiggans. Thank you. You may be seated. Let the record 
reflect that the witnesses answered in the affirmative.
    Ms. Therit, you are now recognized for 5 minutes to provide 
the VA's testimony.

                   STATEMENT OF TRACEY THERIT

    Ms. Therit. Good afternoon, Chairwoman Kiggans, Ranking 
Member Ramirez, and distinguished members of the committee. 
Thank you for this opportunity to discuss how VA is improving 
governance and oversight of recruitment, relocation, and 
retention, 3R's in our incentive payment practices. As pay caps 
for healthcare professionals at VA have not kept pace with 
rising salaries for healthcare professionals and specialists, 
the 3R's program is a critical component of VA's incentive 
plan. I am joined today by Mr. David Perry, acting chief, Human 
Capital Management, Veterans Health Administration. VA will 
always fulfill its duty to provide veterans, families, 
caregivers and survivors with the health care and benefits that 
they have earned. To ensure all veterans and VA beneficiaries 
continue to receive their earned benefits and services, VA is 
always recruiting dedicated professionals. As of July 2025, 
more than 350,000 critical positions are exempt from the hiring 
freeze. While VA has historically offered 3R's incentives to 
address occupational shortages and facilities hiring 
initiatives, the department must provide greater accountability 
and stewardship of taxpayer resources by enhancing our 
procedures, documenting requirements, and providing oversight 
of these incentives.
    Starting in 2017, VA updated department policy on 3R 
incentives to establish internal controls and provide 
oversight. Specifically, VA began requiring annual 
certification of the incentive so it was appropriate and in 
compliance with policy and succession plans to reduce long-term 
reliance on incentives and established residency before payment 
of receipt. In the years since, VA has continued iterating and 
implementing additional improvements including the following, 
requiring a standard form to capture all the required 
information by law, aligning the use of 3R's with shortage and 
hard to fill positions, obtaining authorization and 
justification before including 3R incentives in job 
announcements, tracking unfulfilled service obligations, 
improving coordination of debt collection and enforcing debt 
collection and reviewing incentives annually and terminating 
them in a timely manner when they are no longer needed. 
However, there is always room for improvement and VA must 
continue to refine its governance of those incentives, 
including proper documentation in their use, ensuring correct 
signatures are in place, ensuring justification in employing 
3R's is sound. VA must develop stronger oversight mechanisms 
and discontinue the use of multiyear incentives.
    Finally, VHA is implementing a comprehensive strategy to 
enhance the management and oversight of the incentives program, 
includes continuing to monitor internal control procedures and 
guidance to ensure 3R documentation is appropriately maintained 
in accordance with VA policy. VHA will also conduct a program 
to monitor quarterly and utilize uniform checklists and 
templates nationwide. VHA is developing training and materials 
to ensure proper documentation for succession plans, 
performance ratings and to strengthen the technical review. VHA 
is creating oversight plans and a strengthened technical review 
program to assess every incentive for technical adherence. At 
an enterprise level, oversight monitoring component will act as 
a second level check at the national level. VHA aims to support 
the compliance with record retention requirements and 
furthermore specific performance metrics will be tied to 
operational leadership and human resources leadership. They are 
being developed and reinforcing the importance of proper 
governance and oversight of incentive programs. VA is committed 
to addressing these issues that have been identified by the 
Inspector General's report and strengthening the process to 
support the VA mission. We are confident that the steps that we 
have taken and will continue to take will strengthen our 
incentives program and the governance and oversight required, 
leading to more effective outcomes and better service to 
veterans. While the 3R's incentive program is an important tool 
for the department in attracting and retaining talent, it is 
not enough for the VA to remain competitive with industry. VA 
looks forward to working with the committee on strategies to 
ensure that VA is an employer of choice for physicians in 
critical need specialties.
    I am proud to be part of the noble mission to care for our 
Nation's veterans. I look forward to working with each of you 
on the committee to more effectively and efficiently provide 
enhanced oversight and governance of the incentive payment 
practices, ensuring VA can continue to provide the best care 
and services to veterans and their families.
    It concludes my testimony and my colleague and I welcome 
any questions that you may have for us. Thank you, thank you.

    [The Prepared Statement Of Tracey Therit Appears In The 
Appendix]

    Ms. Kiggans. Thank you, Ms. Therit. Mr. Steele, you are now 
recognized for 5 minutes to provide the VA's OIG's testimony.

                   STATEMENT OF SHAWN STEELE

    Mr. Steele. Chairwoman Kiggans, Ranking Member Ramirez, and 
members of the subcommittee thank you for the opportunity to 
testify on the OIG's independent oversight of VHA's management 
of recruitment, relocation and retention incentives. These 
incentives are meant to help VA entice candidates to accept 
hard to fill positions or to retain high quality staff. Our 
work focused on identifying whether VHA used incentives 
effectively, complied with the law and VA policy, and acted as 
strong stewards of taxpayer dollars. As the OIG has documented, 
VHA faces significant staffing shortages in key positions, also 
known as critical need occupations. This long-standing 
challenge affects clinical positions as well as nonclinical 
support and security functions. Critical need occupations are 
often difficult to fill due to the limited number and quality 
of candidates, unfavorable employment trends, and lack of 
appeal for the position's duties or geographic location. Our 
work shows that despite VHA's ability to hire non-
competitively, they continue to experience staffing shortages 
for positions fundamental to the safe and effective delivery of 
care to veterans. Other OIG reports highlighted weaknesses in 
VA's processes and controls governing the use of pay 
incentives.
    Our 2017 audit found that VA needed to improve controls 
over recruitment, relocation and retention incentives to ensure 
they were strategically and prudently used. We also reported in 
May 2024 that VA awarded $10.8 million in critical skill 
incentives to nearly all VHA and Veterans Benefits 
Administration (VBA) central office executives without required 
support showing the employee possessed a high demand skill or 
skill that is at a shortage. Over 182 senior executives 
received payments averaging about $60,000 each. Subsequently, 
over 90 percent of those funds had been recouped. We closed the 
recommendations for both the 2017 and 2024 reports because VA 
provided sufficient evidence to show action had been taken to 
implement needed changes. However, the OIG continued to monitor 
VA's use of these important staffing tools. Last month, we 
published a report that evaluated VA's controls over and 
governance of recruitment, relocation and retention incentives. 
It focused on awards paid to VHA employees from fiscal years 
2020 through 2023 and tested many of VA's actions taken in 
response to the 2017 OIG report. Overall, we found that VA used 
incentives extensively to address critical staffing needs. In 
fiscal years 1922 and 1923, nearly 90 percent of incentives 
went to employees and occupations on staffing shortage lists.
    However, VA did not effectively govern the process to 
ensure that VHA officials consistently captured information 
required to support the awards. Key forms were missing or 
lacked sufficient justifications and approval signatures. This 
information helps confirm incentives are properly used and is 
needed to carry out effective oversight. Consequently, we found 
that VA's prior corrective actions to implement our 2017 report 
recommendations were not sustained as policies were not 
routinely followed. Overall, we estimated that the award 
justification could not be verified or is insufficient for 30 
percent of VHA employees that received incentive payments. This 
amounted to about $341 million in incentives that were not 
adequately supported. Our team also found 28 VHA employees who 
received retention incentive payments long after their award 
period had expired. These individuals were improperly paid for 
an additional 8 years, on average totaling about $4.6 million.
    In conclusion, the OIG's oversight work has highlighted 
VHA's ongoing challenges with addressing severe occupational 
shortages in essential positions. Our reports have also shown 
that attempts to narrow those staffing gaps through 
recruitment, relocation, and retention incentives do not 
consistently follow requirements. It is also concerning that 
these issues are not routinely detected by VA's quality control 
measures. VHA must emphasize to responsible personnel the 
importance of following policies and procedures to safeguard 
against improper payments. OIG teams will continue to monitor 
VHA staffing needs and the use of incentive payments. In doing 
so, VHA will be held accountable for securing qualified 
personnel to provide high quality care to veterans while making 
the most effective use of taxpayer dollars.
    Chairwoman Kiggins, this concludes my statement. I would be 
happy to answer any questions you or members of the 
subcommittee may have.

    [The Prepared Statement Of Shawn Steele Appears In The 
Appendix]

    Ms. Kiggans. Thank you, Mr. Steele. Dr. Elliot, you are now 
recognized for 5 minutes to provide your testimony.

                  STATEMENT OF SHEILA ELLIOTT

    Dr. Elliott. Thank you, Chairwoman Kiggans, Ranking Member 
Ramirez, and members of the subcommittee. AFGE, and the 
National VA Council appreciate the opportunity to testify 
today. My name is Dr. Sheila Elliot. For the last 35 years, I 
have served as Treasurer/Steward at Hampton VA Medical Centre. 
I have also served over 15 years as the president of AFGE Local 
2328 which represents most direct patient care staff at 
Hampton, VA, and the surrounding clinics. On behalf of the 
320,000 VA employees AFGE represents, approximately a third 
whom are veterans. It is a privilege to offer AFGE's views on 
how the VA should improve recruitment and retention, both with 
the recruitment, retention and relocation bonus program and 
beyond. On June 12, 2025, the OIG released a report on the 
recruitment, relocation and retention incentives bonus program. 
The OIG highlighted several problems with the administration 
and oversight of the program that AFGE agrees with. Chief among 
the problems identified is the failure of VA human resources. 
While VA did use this tool to recruit and retain clinicians, 
there were problems in how the bonus program was managed. AFGE 
has previously criticized the HR modernization that the OIG is 
citing here, agreeing with the conclusion that it has led to 
increased turnover at the VA.
    Additionally, AFGE believes that HR not being in the 
facilities and lacking familiarity with the workforce and the 
veterans they serve increases their turnover. This undermines 
the ability of HR to serve employees as well as administer the 
bonus program. In preparation for this hearing, when contacting 
the Hampton, VA, we could find no repository of data to show 
who has received these bonuses. However, after reaching out 
directly to 800 bargaining unit members at our hospital, AFGE 
had 9 bargaining union members who reported that there were 4 
recruitment bonuses, 4 retention bonus, and 1 relocation bonus 
awarded between 2021 and 2025. While AFGE is pleased that at 
least 9 employees receive these bonuses, we have no way of 
knowing if this benefit is properly utilized compared to the 
rest of VA.
    Regardless, I can say with decades of experience at this 
facility that there is significant room for improvement both at 
the hospital and the brand-new North Battlefield Outpatient 
Clinic which opened this year 27 percent staffed. We urge the 
VA to use these bonuses and other tools to increase capacity at 
the clinic and the hospital. Beyond the bonus program, AFGE has 
other suggestions to improve recruitment and retention. As the 
committee is aware of in March, President Trump signed an 
Executive Order (EO) eliminating the collective bargaining 
rights of 1.5 million Federal employees at agencies including 
VA. Continuing to deny large swaths of the VA workforce, 
collective bargaining rights will continue to harm recruitment 
and retention. As there is a critical shortage of clinicians in 
this country, many quality candidates who want to serve the VA 
may avoid the agency to receive both union protections and 
better salaries in the private sector. This is particularly 
egregious as Secretary Collins played favorites when choosing 
whom to exempt from the executive order, not by job description 
or duties, but by which union represents the employee in 
question. AFGE members lost their collective bargaining rights 
despite having identical jobs for employees who are exempted 
and retained their rights. AFGE urges members of this committee 
to support H.R. 2550, the Protect America's Workforce Act, 
which would nullify this illegal executive order. AFGE has long 
argued for the benefits of telework for employees who can 
perform their duties remotely. This is particularly true for 
clinicians who practice in whole or in large part through 
telemedicine.
    However, since most telework has been rescinded by this 
administration, many clinicians have had to report to a VA 
facility and then have been required to interact with patients 
remotely, often in crowded bullpens discussing private matters. 
This has harmed morale and retention of mission critical and 
hard to recruit clinicians at the VA. This has negatively 
affected retention at Hampton and reflects VA's overly broad 
approach to telework and telehealth. I hope that my testimony 
today leads this committee subcommittee to help improve 
recruitment and retention at the VA.
    Thank you and I look forward to answering your questions.

    [The Prepared Statement Of Sheila Elliott Appears In The 
Appendix]

    Ms. Kiggans. Thank you, Dr. Elliot. We will now proceed 
with questions. However, before I do that, I would like to make 
sure the record is clear regarding not just mental health 
services that are offered at the Hampton VA. We have pushed and 
will continue to push veterans to receive the care we need it. 
That is why I have advocated for additional facilities in my 
district that provide these services. In addition, and more 
specifically that North Battlefield VA Clinic in Chesapeake, I 
wanted to clarify and echo Secretary Collins words about that 
facility. It is opening in deliberate phases to ensure safe, 
effective and high-quality care as services and staffing scale 
up responsibly. While some public comments have 
mischaracterized this phase rollout, the facts are clear. The 
Clinic opened in April 2025. I was at the ribbon cutting with 
150 staff and core services including primary care, mental 
health, and pharmacy. To quote, Dr. Elliot, that was 27 percent 
and it was always intended to expand in waves. In July, dental 
and additional mental health services came online and by 
January 2026 the facility is scheduled to be fully operational 
with radiology, optometry, telehealth and more. This is a 
standard and prudent approach for bringing a major healthcare 
facility online. As we grow more patients, we grow more staff. 
Spreading misinformation about staffing levels or service 
delays only undermines the hard work being done to provide the 
best possible care to our veterans. I remain committed to 
ensuring this facility and all our VA healthcare facilities 
reach full potential and deliver the timely high-quality care 
the veterans in Chesapeake and across Hampton Roads have 
earned.
    In conclusion and for clarification additionally from 
Secretary Collins, I am pleased the department of the VA is not 
going to pursue a large-scale reduction of force and have been 
reassured that any early retirements will come from redundant 
positions and non-essential personnel. This will safeguard 
operations of the VA and thus ensure services to our veterans. 
I am confident that Secretary Collins will prioritize 
maintaining a robust health care workforce at the VA to ensure 
veteran care and benefits are not impacted. We can all agree 
that giving our veterans the care they need is essential. Under 
President Trump I know that our veterans will be put first. In 
fact, the VA's performance has continued to improve under his 
leadership. With disability claim backlog already down nearly 
30 percent, the work Secretary Collins is doing to modernize 
the VA's operations and get our veterans the quality of care 
they need is a breath of fresh air. By June, the VA had already 
processed 2 million disability claims, accelerated the 
implementation of the integrated electronic health record 
system and made it easier for survivors to get benefits. These 
accomplishments on behalf of our veterans deserve recognition.
    With that, I have questions, and my first question will be 
for Ms. Therit. Ms. Therit, the OIG found that the VISN quality 
assurance teams conducted reviews after the incentives were 
awarded. Can you explain why the VA's review process appears to 
be reactive instead of proactive?
    Ms. Therit. Chairwoman Kiggans, regarding the VISN's review 
process, I am going to ask Mr. Perry to respond to that 
question.
    Ms. Kiggans. That is fine.
    Mr. Perry. Thank you, Chairman, for that question. We agree 
where the VISN is needed to do a more proactive approach. We 
are shifting that responsibility over to the compensation 
aspect of the VISN to do that on the front end versus the back 
end. We recognize that there is a gap in our process that we 
are making a modification adjustment until now.
    Ms. Kiggans. Will the VISNs be talking to each other then 
to come up with a more standard approach?
    Mr. Perry. Yes, overall, we are taking that approach to 
look at standardization. I think what we saw back in 2017, 
where it was down at the facility level, we had about 150 ways 
of doing it. We have made improvements, that is 18. We do have 
some areas to improve to make sure that the 18 are doing it 
consistently. Consistently according to policy.
    Ms. Kiggans. That would be great. Consistency would be 
helpful. I go back to Ms. Therit, but either Ms. Therit or Mr. 
Perry, would you please explain step by step how one of these 3 
incentive payments would be approved, starting with the first 
step to the actual payment to the employee.
    Ms. Therit. Chairwoman Kiggans, I appreciate the work of 
the office of the Inspector General because their very 
detailed, actionable reporting helps us to improve. We made 
improvements from the 2017 report, and we will continue to make 
improvements based on the 2025 report. Recruitment and 
relocation incentives are one category of 3R's. The recruitment 
incentive is to attract individuals into the Federal 
Government. The relocation incentive is to help move employees 
into locations that are hard to fill or where there is a 
specific need. There is a standard form 10016 that is completed 
for both of those incentives. One of the deficiencies in 2017 
that we rectified in 2025 was that our department policy and 
procedures did not align with regulation. Now we have a 
department-wide policy. Everybody should follow it 
consistently. We have standard forms that every supervisor who 
is recommending an incentive, every HR official who is 
reviewing an incentive, and every approving official would 
utilize. That is for the recruitment and relocation process. We 
have a similar 10017 that is used for retention.
    Retention incentives are typically shorter-term. 
Recruitment and relocation can be up to a 4-year service 
obligation. Retention incentives, we typically look at a 1-year 
retention incentive service period. The reason being for 
retention purposes we are looking at somebody who is likely to 
leave Federal service and has a unique skill that we cannot 
afford to walk out the door. We need a short period of time to 
put that succession plan in place to either develop someone 
with those skills to step in when they depart or to be able to 
recruit somebody before they leave. That is the process and the 
steps from someone recommending an incentive for an individual 
under one of those three sets of parameters to then HR 
reviewing the requirements based on regulation and then for the 
approving official to sign off on it. Once the individual is 
identified, then they too have responsibilities. Signing the 
service obligation, making sure that they relocate if it is a 
relocation incentive, making sure they are new to the Federal 
service if it is a recruitment incentive. For retention 
incentives, we have a 1-year hard stop where supervisors need 
to review and recertify that that is still needed. Otherwise, 
it will be terminated automatically.
    Those are just some of the steps that we take with 
recruitment, relocation, and retention incentives. Some of the 
things that we have in place and where the Inspector General 
(IG) has identified more steps that we need to take to have 
better oversight and compliance that we are willing and 
currently in the process of doing that.
    Ms. Kiggans. That approving official who is in their next 
step in the chain of command, who would they report to?
    Ms. Therit. Chairwoman Kiggans, we have delegations of 
authority for our 3R's incentives. Typically, in the Veterans 
Health Administration, which is the subject matter of the 
report. A recommending official would be a medical center 
director. Approving official could be up to a network director. 
It depends on the percentages of the incentives that are being 
offered. Sometimes it is higher, but that is typically how the 
delegations of authority flow. Now we also have breach of 
agreement procedures that we follow to make sure that if 
somebody does not fulfill their obligation that we are going 
back and initiating and collecting those debts. Again, these 
are taxpayer dollars. We do not want to see these incentives 
misused or abused. I know there were instances in the report 
that were identified. We do not want that to continue to 
happen. The breach process is the individual employee who is 
asking for a waiver of repayment will go to their supervisor. 
That supervisor will take it the whole way up the chain of 
command to the under secretary of health in the Veterans Health 
Administration. If they approve that request to waive payment, 
then it comes to my office. Our assistant secretary for Human 
Resources and Administration Operations Security and 
Preparedness would be responsible for that process. That is 
just an example of the levels at which these are reviewed and 
the seriousness with which we take things like breach of 
agreements.
    Ms. Kiggans. Thank you for that very thorough explanation. 
How long has that exact chain that you just described been in 
place? Is that new this year in 2025?
    Ms. Therit. I would say it dates back to 2020, when we 
revised our departmental policy. We do have statistics, if the 
committee is interested in terms of how many cases go through 
that process. The percentage that reach my office, it is a 
small percentage, maybe 1 a month, and a very low percentage 
that is approved because the standard for waiving a breach of a 
service obligation is very high. It is stipulated in law as 
repayment would be against equity and good conscience or not in 
the best interest of the government. When we are paying 
individuals and they are not upholding their end of the 
agreement, that is something that we want to pursue.
    Ms. Kiggans. Thank you. My time has expired. I am sure that 
we will have a second round of questioning, but I will yield to 
our ranking member.
    Ms. Ramirez. Thank you, Chairwoman. Dr. Elliot, I want to 
first thank you for being here and taking time away from your 
day job as a pharmacist at the Hampton VA Medical Center. I 
understand you are also the caregiver of your mother, is that 
correct?
    Dr. Elliott. Yes.
    Ms. Ramirez. Well, you are a superwoman, and I am really 
grateful for your participation and your continued dedication 
to your VA brothers and sisters at the AFGE. You mentioned in 
your testimony that there is a lack of clarity in how and when 
3R incentives are used at your facility in Hampton. Do you 
think that if 3R incentives were made widely and frequently 
used at Hampton, the facility would be able to onboard and keep 
more employees?
    Dr. Elliott. We used to have a process whereby we had hard 
to recruit and hard to fill positions at our facility. I do not 
know where that process is at this time. I have not heard 
anything of it for the last several years now, especially since 
we have been decentralized with respect to the HR staff. That 
is supposed to be the--those people on that list are supposed 
to be the designees of various recruitment, retention bonuses, 
and so forth. In my 35 years there, I have never seen a 
relocation bonus for a line staff person, no matter what their 
job was. Typically, those had been reserved for top management. 
The various relocation bonuses.
    Ms. Ramirez. Dr. Elliot, I wanted to ask you if you had any 
reactions to how the secretary is characterizing staffing at 
North Battlefield Clinic, sincere on the ground, actually 
working there?
    Dr. Elliott. I can tell you this from the standpoint of a 
veteran. I go to--this is what the veteran said during a panel. 
I go to the VA at North Battlefield, have my primary care 
appointment. However, if I want to receive other services such 
as X-ray and those sorts of things, I still have to drive to 
Hampton. That is problematic.
    Ms. Ramirez. That is, well, thank you, Dr. Elliot. I want 
to now turn it over to Ms. Therit. Ms. Therit, how many 
employees has VA lost through ``natural attrition'' since 
January of this year?
    Ms. Therit. Ranking Member Ramirez, we do look at that data 
on a regular basis. I believe the last statistics that I saw of 
all of the separations, those are voluntary and involuntary 
actions, about 20,000 that have occurred over the last few 
months.
    Ms. Ramirez. Twenty thousand over the last few months, is 
that what you just said?
    Ms. Therit. Over the last few months since the beginning of 
the year?
    Ms. Ramirez. I just wanted to make sure I had heard 
correctly. How many of those employees are in veteran facing 
roles like direct care or benefits counseling? What would you 
say?
    Ms. Therit. Ranking Member Ramirez, the number that I cited 
was the aggregate level, so I would have to go back and break 
that down to look more specifically at direct care position.
    Ms. Ramirez. Ms. Therit, if you could go ahead and follow 
up on that, I would really appreciate it. The follow-up 
question I have to that is if you know if those positions were 
backfilled.
    Ms. Therit. Ranking Member Ramirez, as I mentioned, about 
350,000 positions are exempt from the hiring freeze. I do see 
data on a bi-weekly basis of the job announcements that are 
posted and the individuals that we are bringing on board. I 
know we are bringing several thousand a pay period back into 
the VA. I know those--that statistic is actually reported on 
the workforce dashboard each month as well.
    Ms. Ramirez. Got it. Ms. Therit, when you follow up, if you 
can try to get me a little bit more detail, that would be 
really helpful. I want to go back to these posters on the VA 
workforce dashboard dated June 28, 2024. Last year. There is a 
note at the very top that says ``top risk'' and then reads, 
``Delays or termination use of PACT Act Title 9 authorities 
will have a negative impact and recruitment and retention.'' 
Now, those PACT Act authorities referenced here included 
recruitment and retention incentives, among other bonuses. Is 
that correct? Mr. Therit?
    Ms. Therit. Yes, it is, ma'am.
    Ms. Ramirez. Why was there, why has there been such a stark 
downward trend in the use of 3R incentives from year 2024 to 
year 2025?
    Ms. Therit. As mentioned earlier, there has to be a 
justification for using a recruitment or a retention incentive. 
In many situations, I know Dr. Elliot mentioned our hard to 
fill and our shortage occupations, and I think Mr. Steele has 
mentioned it as well, that we are able to post those job 
announcements, get qualified candidates and bring them on 
without using an incentive.
    Ms. Ramirez. Ms. Therit, this is my last question for this 
round and we will come back the second round. Is there a delay 
or termination of using these authorities having a negative 
impact on recruitment and retention at the VA?
    Ms. Therit. At this moment in time, we are able to post and 
fill those positions that are being vacated in our direct care 
positions.
    Ms. Ramirez. You are not noticing just yet the negative 
impact on recruitment and retention of the VA? Is that what you 
are saying?
    Ms. Therit. Correct, ma'am.
    Ms. Ramirez. Thank you. With that, I yield back.
    Ms. Kiggans. Thank you. The chair now recognizes Mr. 
Conaway for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Conaway. Thank you, Madam Chair. I guess before I ask 
my questions, I cannot help but put some more close, if you 
will, on the statements of our ranking member. When you hear 
about the intention, the leaked intention of the number of 
employees that the Secretary intends to cut from the VA, it is 
hard to imagine that anyone who might think about entering a 
career in public service and working at the VA would look upon 
the VA as a place to land and to work and to engage in public 
service, taking care of our valuable and hopefully appreciated 
veterans. This kind of announcement from the top cannot help 
but hurt the effort to retain frontline healthcare 
professionals and others who are so critical to the operation 
of that facility. People, you know, obviously need nurses, you 
need doctors, but you also need someone to make sure that 
people get food delivered to them. You need to make sure that 
you have got a pharmacy that is working. You need to make sure 
that the cleaning services are working and that the building 
and the facility is secure. You need people to do all of those 
jobs and to want to come to work and have that work 
appreciated. It is hard for us on this side of the aisle to 
hear and to understand these--these obvious dynamics with 
respect to their union rights and their prospects for a career 
that is both satisfying, rewarding, and appreciated by their 
government, by their employees, that that is not going to have 
a profound impact on the ability of the VA to do its work and 
to honor our commitment to veterans, and that it is not part of 
a grand plan, as ranking members pointed out to privatize these 
services. We are seeing this across at least the signs of this 
and I think very definite pattern across the Federal workforce 
and the Federal Government. I am a physician myself. I have 
worked, I have trained at a VA facility for part of my 
training. I served on a military base as a physician there. I 
certainly treated a lot of veterans even in private practice 
after leaving the service because my district is at home of a 
military base, Joint Base McGuire.
    We have a lot of veterans who live in that area and were 
patients of mine. I understand how important the VA is to them 
and their ability to use the VA when they need it for their 
care. I am disturbed to hear about what is happening with the 
physician workforce, the losses there, and particularly the 
ability of psychologists and psychiatrists to treat patients 
because of the attack on remote work. Just because someone is 
being seen remotely does not mean that anything that is said in 
the interactions between their physician and someone who is 
receiving their care remotely should not be protected. Their 
privacy should not be protected there. When you consider people 
now being put in cubicles or putting in spaces where their 
conversations are not secure and private, that impacts the kind 
of care that they wish to give and how they ought to practice 
that lifesaving care. As we know, there is so many dislocations 
with mental health in the service. I understand, Ms. Elliot, 
Dr. Elliot, pardon me, that you have an example of a change in 
this retention policy and the loss of remote work. Can you 
comment on the impact of that situation at Hampton? At the 
Hampton VA?
    Dr. Elliott. Thank you. At our facility we have a 43 
percent lack of--well, our recruitment is 43 percent behind, 
meaning that out of 100 positions, 43 of them are vacant. We 
are in the process now of losing a psychologist to another 
facility because that particular psychologist lived far away 
and could not come to Hampton with no relocation bonus offered. 
That psychologist was able to get a relocation bonus from 
someplace else. That is where that psychologist is going. I 
guess instead of being 43 percent behind the eight ball, we are 
44 percent in a couple of weeks when that psychologist leaves. 
Now, to add insult to injury there, even though we know that 
psychologist is leaving, we do not recruit, begin recruitment 
until after the psychologist is gone. Therefore, all of that 
psychologist work is borne by someone else or patients are 
rescheduled and rescheduled and rescheduled until someone comes 
in to fill that post.
    Mr. Conaway. Thank you. Madam Chair, I yield back. I see it 
is my time.
    Ms. Kiggans. Thank you. I have a couple of other questions. 
Dr. Elliot, just for clarification, that psychologist you, I am 
sorry. Oh, Mr. Kennedy, let us start with, sorry, Mr. Kennedy, 
we will recognize you for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Kennedy. Thank you very much. Thank you all for being 
here today. I have some deep concerns about what is transpiring 
at the VA across this country. I know veterans, not only in my 
district, but across the Nation are disturbed about the news 
that is continuing to come out of the VA that will impact their 
care. Just to take a quick trip down memory lane, back in 
February, the VA dismissed 1,000 employees outright as February 
13th. Eleven days later, on February 24th, the VA cut another 
1400 employees. 2,400 people cut from serving our veterans in 
this Nation. It was the beginning of a despicable pattern that 
we have seen coming out of this administration. In March, this 
committee discovered through a leaked memo that the VA planned 
to cut more than 80,000 employees, which Secretary Collins then 
confirmed. Now we are being told that the VA will not make this 
cut, but would reduce the number of employees by nearly 30,000 
by the end of the fiscal year. Seventeen thousand already gone, 
meaning there is going to be another 12,000. More than 12,000 
additional cuts, the largest in VA history.
    These reductions will affect critical frontline staff, 
including healthcare workers and benefits personnel. I recall 
what Secretary Collins told this committee in May, and I am 
going to quote the Secretary. ``The VA staffing structure is 
aimed at finding ways to improve care and benefits for veterans 
without cutting care and benefits for veterans. We are going to 
maintain the VA's mission essential jobs like doctors, nurses 
and claims processors, while phasing out Michigan mission, non-
mission essential roles.'' That is not what we are seeing. I 
want to believe that that would be true, but if it is not true, 
then this committee responsible for VA oversight has been 
misled. I have a couple of questions. Ms. Therit, you visited 
multiple VA facilities and have spoken with a wide range of 
employees. Based on what you have seen, similar roles face 
similar challenges nationwide. Why were collective bargaining 
rights preserved for nurses and facility workers at the 
Milwaukee, VA, but stripped from their counterparts in the 
community that I represent in Buffalo despite nearly identical 
job functions?
    Ms. Therit. Representative Kennedy, the executive order 
related to labor relations is currently under litigation. There 
is a stay related to that executive order. We are complying 
with that litigation right now.
    Mr. Kennedy. Okay, so no answer. The only clear difference 
that I can see is union affiliation. Buffalo workers are 
represented by unions that have filed lawsuits against this 
administration, unlike those in Milwaukee, that raises serious 
concerns about political retribution and retaliation. Can you 
explain it all these decisions, how they were made, and whether 
the union activity played a role?
    Ms. Therit. Representative Kennedy, I am at this point in 
time based on the stay in that particular case, I cannot answer 
that question.
    Mr. Kennedy. Okay, no answer again, thank you. Dr. Elliot, 
after having conversations with VA employees in Buffalo, two 
things are clear to me. They take deep pride in serving our 
veterans and they rely on their union to protect their rights 
and help them provide the best possible care. As you know, 
President Trump's EO 14251 misused the national security 
exemption in Title 5 to remove employees, including those at 
Hampton, VA, and Buffalo, from the bargaining unit. You just 
mentioned in your testimony that 43 percent reduction in hiring 
that you are behind. Based on your experience, has the VA's 
approach to collective bargaining helped or hurt your ability 
to attract and retain staff?
    Dr. Elliott. I would say that it has, we have been, I 
guess----
    Mr. Kennedy. It has?
    Dr. Elliott. It has--it has reduced our ability to recruit 
and retain. It has. I also would like to say, if you do not 
mind, this situation about the 30,000 employees that are 
targeted as far as a number goes. In 1989, I met a nurse named 
Ms. Eddie Riggs. She told me that a failure to plan is a plan 
to fail. You probably have heard that. When you rely on random 
reductions, there can be danger there. You do not know which 
critical and which non critical position is going to be 
reduced. Let us say, for example, if out of that 30,000, 10,000 
of them are doctors, we cannot tolerate that. Or if 15,000 of 
them are nurses, we cannot.
    Ms. Kiggans. Gentlemen's time has expired.
    Mr. Kennedy. Thank you. I yield back.
    Ms. Kiggans. We are going to move into a second round of 
questioning and we will do 2 minutes for an additional round of 
questions. Ms. Therit, do you anticipate the VHA will develop 
the necessary guidance regarding quality control checks by the 
OIG's recommended completion date in September?
    Ms. Therit. Chairwoman Kiggans, I do. I know Mr. Perry has 
additional information on that.
    Ms. Kiggans. Thank you. Can you please tell us how VISN 
leadership will be involved in monitoring the 95 percent 
compliance rate?
    Mr. Perry. Yes, Chairwoman. As I previously stated, we are 
working now on shifting the responsibility of the oversight to 
the compensation side of the VISN to hold that accountability 
line to make sure that the proper documentation, technical 
review, and approvals are in place. That will be done by the 
end of this year.
    Ms. Kiggans. How long----
    Mr. Perry. This fiscal year.
    Ms. Kiggans. How long, okay, so how long do you anticipate 
it will take for the majority of VISNs to meet that 95 percent 
target?
    Mr. Perry. We have already started that now. That includes 
my team rolling out the additional training and oversight to 
ensure that they do come into compliance by the end of this 
fiscal year.
    Ms. Kiggans. Okay, thank you. Ms. Therit, do VHA officials 
have the authorization to approve exceptions to limitations 
placed on incentive payments?
    Ms. Therit. VHA officials at the, through the delegation of 
authority are able to approve incentives up to a certain 
threshold and then those depending on the incentive may have to 
come up to the office of the Secretary, depending on the 
position.
    Ms. Kiggans. Who is responsible for approving the exception 
and who provides a check on this person?
    Ms. Therit. My office conducts an oversight review of those 
incentives and would also be able to work with Mr. Perry's team 
to make sure that they are following policy and proper 
procedures.
    Ms. Kiggans. In your experience, are those exceptions more 
frequently approved for administrative positions or clinical 
positions?
    Ms. Therit. Chairwoman Kiggans, they are more frequently 
approved for clinical positions.
    Ms. Kiggans. Thank you. Mr. Steele, I was shocked to hear 
that the VHA could not provide OIG evidence for recertification 
for those recurring incentive payments. Do you believe this is 
an issue with HR Smart or a result of inadequate oversight by 
the HR servicing teams?
    Mr. Steele. We saw a breakdown of both systems and people. 
HR Smart lacked the automation to halt the process if certain 
requirements were not met. In that situation, it does put more 
onus on people to enter data correctly and conduct back-end 
oversight to ensure that the process ceases when it should.
    Ms. Kiggans. Thank you. My 2 minutes have expired. I yield 
to the ranking member.
    Ms. Ramirez. Thank you, Chair. Ms. Therit, I want to follow 
up again with you. The 8-corner staff have been meeting 
routinely with Mark Engelbaum, the assistant secretary for HR. 
Our staff has requested a detailed breakdown of data on 
employees who have left the VA since January through the DRP, 
Voluntary Early Retirement Authority (VERA), or natural 
attrition. Unfortunately, the numbers that VA provided as a 
follow up fall woefully below the level of detail requested. 
Are you able to produce by location, occupation, detailed data 
on the number of employees who have taken the DRP, who have 
taken VERA, who have resigned, who have retired? Are you able 
to get that information for us?
    Ms. Therit. Ranking Member Ramirez, yes, I can get that 
information.
    Ms. Ramirez. Great. What about the number of job offers 
that have been declined by applicants since January of this 
year? Is that a data point that you have the capability of 
pulling?
    Ms. Therit. Ranking Member Ramirez, our talent acquisition 
system is USA staffing and it does capture some information on 
declinations, but it may not provide the detailed information 
that you are asking.
    Ms. Ramirez. Okay. Please provide me everything that in 
fact is being collected? Mr. Therit, can you please commit to 
working with us on providing the detailed data in a reasonable 
time?
    Ms. Therit. Ranking Member Ramirez, I welcome the 
opportunity to work with this.
    Ms. Ramirez. Great. Thank you, Ms. Therit. I do not imagine 
you will have this number on top of your head because I am sure 
there is a lot going on and a lot of information you have to 
try to memorize for these hearings. I want to bring to you an 
answer, I want you to bring an answer back for the record, how 
many veteran care appointments at the VA have been canceled 
since January of this year due to staffing shortages? If you 
have the answer, I will take it now. If not----
    Ms. Therit. Ranking Member Ramirez, I do not. I do not know 
if Mr. Perry does.
    Ms. Ramirez. Do you have that? No?
    Mr. Perry. We do not, but we can take that----
    Ms. Ramirez. Keeping come back with it.
    Mr. Perry. Yes.
    Ms. Ramirez. I would really appreciate knowing how many 
veteran appointments have been canceled. I am going to leave it 
at that. Mr. Steele, I really wanted to ask you a question, but 
I am hopeful others can. Thank you.
    Ms. Kiggans. The chair now recognizes Mr. Conaway for 5, 
for 2 minutes.
    Mr. Conaway. I thought we were changing the order, Madam 
Chair. Thank you for recognizing me, Madam Chair. Just before I 
get to one of my questions, I just want to make a comment about 
H.R. 1, the big cruel bill, as I call it. I am very concerned 
that medical students going to medical school, very expensive 
process, that there is now a cap on those loans that students 
may give. It is going to particularly be a problem for those 
students who do not come from wealthy families where they are 
going to have to try to figure out how to make up that gap. 
What do you think that this, that this issue of cutting support 
for medical education, how do you think that is going to impact 
the VA? You have trained most of the physicians in the country.
    Ms. Therit. Dr. Conaway, I would say that when we talk 
about 3R's, there are also other incentives and you speak to 
scholarship programs, debt reduction programs, and if you look 
at the job opportunity announcements that are posted for the 
VA, many of our Veterans Health Administration job opportunity 
announcement include those benefits. I will ask Mr. Perry to 
just----
    Mr. Conaway. I am going to reclaim my time because I want 
to get another question in. Pardon me for that, but I must push 
on. In 2024, the VA reported a loss of 608 physicians. Just a 
series of questions. You may not have them, but I want to get 
them in before my time is up. How many job postings does the VA 
currently have for physicians? Do you know by chance, if you do 
not know off the top of your head, I will just leave them for 
the record. How many physicians has the VA onboarded in the 
past month? What is the VA doing to attract and retain 
physicians? Why do you think we are seeing such a loss in 
physicians? I will leave it at that. If you have questions, any 
of those, I see my time is up, but I look forward to your 
answer offline.
    Ms. Kiggans. The gentleman's time has expired. The chair 
now recognizes Mr. Kennedy for 2 minutes.
    Mr. Kennedy. Thank you. I want to just go back to the 
Secretary and what he said to this committee in May, that the 
VA would maintain mission essential jobs like doctors, nurses 
and claims processors. According to the VA's monthly workforce 
dashboard, estimated losses for Fiscal Year 1925 are 1,720 
registered nurses, 604 physicians, and 1,081 veteran claim 
examiners. These are mission critical roles which run directly 
against Secretary Collins points that current and future cuts 
to the VA will not impact the delivery of care and benefits. As 
an occupational therapist, I have seen firsthand on the ground 
what happens when health care facilities are short staffed and 
that health care is not provided to individuals. Right now, our 
veterans are being provided care by American heroes on the 
ground in these facilities. You know what? They are exhausted. 
Not because they do not care, but because they ultimately are 
having trouble keeping up because they are getting cut in 
staffing. When that happens in our VA, it is our veterans that 
are paying the price. Even though we have been told mission 
critical employees are not being cut, evidence on paper is that 
in fact there is a different story. We have credibility issues 
at the VA and with this administration happening right now. 
These cuts are impacting veteran care, and veterans should not 
have to wait longer or see fewer specialists or receive delayed 
benefits. As members of this committee, we have a sacred 
responsibility to uphold this Nation's promise to our veterans. 
These cuts are not only shortsighted un-American.
    Ms. Kiggans. The gentleman's time has expired.
    Mr. Kennedy. I yield back.
    Ms. Kiggans. Dr. Steele and Dr. Elliot. Thank you to each 
of you for coming to testify today. The solution is not just 
identifying weak policies, but following through with the 
guardrails that ensure effective oversight. It is clear more 
attention needs to be focused on ensuring the VA is following 
Congress's intention when paying these incentives. The fact 
that we are still having a conversation on this issue after 
more than a decade since the OIG's 2017 report on improper 
bonus payments indicates we must do something different. It 
does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that providing 
quality and safe patient care is a better use of tax dollars 
and accounting mistakes. These bonuses, when used correctly, 
enable the VA to pay attractive salaries to valuable clinical 
staff and other VA employees who serve our veterans. These 
incentive payments should go to staff dedicated to providing 
world class care for our veterans. When the VA cannot retain 
its good employees or recruit talented staff, patient care is 
the first to suffer. I have seen this firsthand as a nurse 
practitioner. I will not allow it to happen while I am 
chairwoman of the subcommittee. I am encouraged the OIG 
identified better documentation as a means of improving the 
bonus payment processes as well. Aside from the waste stemming 
from the improper payments, it is not possible to conduct a 
thorough review of where processes went wrong when there is no 
paper trail. That is why I was happy to vote with my House 
colleagues yesterday for Senate Bill 423, the Protecting 
Regular Order for Veterans, or PRO Act. This bipartisan bill 
would provide additional guardrails on incentive payments paid 
to members of the senior executive service and I hope the VA 
will take them seriously. I am looking forward to further 
collaboration with Secretary Collins and the Trump 
administration to assist with our oversight efforts. I am 
grateful for the clarity that today's testimony offers. Ranking 
Member Ramirez, do you have any closing remarks?
    Ms. Ramirez. Thank you, Chairwoman. World class care cannot 
be achieved when you have lost 1,720 registered nurses. Cannot 
be achieved when 1,147 medical support assistant staff leave or 
604 physicians leave. When asked why they are leaving, they say 
lack of trust and confidence in senior leaders. The information 
contained in VA's workforce dashboard is critical to our 
oversight and to showing the public the true picture of what is 
happening at the VA under Secretary Collins. It is hard to call 
us liars and say our claims are a hoax when we have the data 
from VA to back up concerns that veteran care and benefits are 
being impacted under Collins leadership. The information for 
the public that is listening can be accessed at va.gov/
employee/workforce-dashboard. I urge everyone watching this 
hearing to go now and review the data and make a judgment for 
yourself on how this administration's actions have and will 
continue to impact world class care for our veterans. We know 
that this administration has a history of deleting or hiding 
files and tampering with information they do not agree with. To 
ensure that these documents remain a part of the public record 
and are not deleted, removed or hidden, I request unanimous 
consent to enter issues 1 through 26 of VA's workforce 
dashboard into the dashboard.
    Ms. Kiggans. Without objection. So, ordered.
    Ms. Ramirez. Thank you, Chairwoman. With that, I yield 
back.
    Ms. Kiggans. Thank you, Ranking Member, and thank you all 
for being here today. Ms. Therit, Mr. Perry, Mr. Steele, Dr. 
Elliot, I know you all took time out of your busy schedules and 
I appreciate that. I am sure you were prepared to discuss the 
real issues at the VA, including the title of our subcommittee, 
which just as a reminder was Counting the Money, Preventing 
Fraud and Abuse in the VA's bonus payment practices for VA 
employees. I appreciate your insight on the issue that is why 
we called this hearing today. As a navy veteran and a nurse 
practitioner, I know how critical it is for the VA to provide 
consistent, high-quality care to those who have served. I am 
married to a veteran. I am the mom to future veterans. I 
represent tens of thousands of veterans. My own parents are 
veterans. It is an issue near and dear to my heart and to my 
district.
    I am encouraged that the VA has decided against large scale 
layoffs and is instead taking a more thoughtful and measured 
approach to improving operations. I also worked at the VA for 
several years or for several months as a nurse practitioner. It 
was a short time because I am a geriatric nurse practitioner 
and could not utilize my geriatric skill base as much as I 
wanted to. I remember that there were a lot of really good 
people doing really hard work. The physicians, the doctors and 
nurses, the pharmacists, the allied health professionals, the 
people who were in one building taking care of people who 
walked through our front door. I also remember on my lunch 
break I would take walks and see buildings full of other people 
that did not provide patient care. I did not know what they 
did, but I knew where I was called to work and where I was able 
to touch patients and to impact lives of veterans. I think 
there is room. Just as this was before my time in politics, 
just looking at what that facility looked like, knowing that 
there was room to probably downscale, I want to make sure that 
our best resources are going to the patient care.
    Reducing 30,000 positions through attrition rather than 
eliminating clinical roles is a more reasonable path forward. I 
know that is what the Secretary is focused on doing. I support 
efforts to streamline the department and I give more decision-
making authority to local medical center directors who are 
closest to the veterans they serve. Decentralizing operations 
can help VA facilities respond more quickly to local needs and 
improve overall outcomes for patients. At the same time, I am 
closely monitoring how these changes may impact support staff 
who play a critical role in ensuring providers can focus on 
delivering care. I believe restructuring can be positive, but 
only if it is done transparently, with input from frontline 
workers and full oversight from Congress. The lack of clarity 
around some of the VA's reorganization efforts is concerning, 
and I will continue to push for more communication and 
accountability. Congress must be a partner in the process, not 
an afterthought, and the VA leadership must work 
collaboratively to keep veterans and employees informed. I will 
continue advocating for investments in VA services that 
prioritize patient care, benefits delivery and support for the 
dedicated workforce. Ultimately, this is not a partisan issue. 
This is about keeping our promises to those who have worn the 
uniform. Veterans deserve a VA that serves them efficiently, 
compassionately and without disruption. Again, thank you all 
for being here today. I ask unanimous consent that all members 
shall have 5 legislative days on which to revise and extend 
their remarks and include any extraneous material.
    Hearing no objection. So, ordered. This hearing is now 
adjourned.
    [Whereupon, at 3:19 p.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.]
    
=======================================================================


                         A  P  P  E  N  D  I  X

=======================================================================


                    Prepared Statements of Witnesses

                              ----------                              


                  Prepared Statement of Tracey Therit

    Good afternoon, Chairwoman Kiggans, Ranking Member Ramirez, and 
distinguished members of the Committee. Thank you for the opportunity 
to discuss how VA is improving governance and oversight of recruitment, 
relocation, and retention (3R) incentive payment practices. As pay caps 
for health care professionals at VA have not kept pace with rising 
salaries for health care professionals and specialists, the 3R program 
is a critical component of VAs incentive plan. I am joined today by Mr. 
David Perry, Acting Chief, Human Capital Management, Veterans Health 
Administration (VHA).
    Everything VA does is to ensure Veterans receive the care and 
services they deserve while instilling a culture of caring, customer 
service, and accountability that always puts Veterans first. This noble 
mission, coupled with a variety of hiring flexibilities and incentives, 
enables VA to attract and retain a highly qualified workforce. VA also 
offers a comprehensive benefits package, generous leave allowances, 
state-of-the-art research and innovation programs, as well as top-of-
the-line training opportunities.
    VA will always fulfill its duty to provide Veterans, families, 
caregivers, and survivors with the health care and benefits they have 
earned. To ensure all Veterans and VA beneficiaries continue to receive 
their earned benefits and services, VA is always recruiting dedicated 
professionals. As of July 2025, more than 350,000 mission-critical 
positions are exempt from the Federal hiring freeze. While VA has 
historically offered 3R incentives to address occupational shortages 
and facilitate hiring initiatives, the Department must provide greater 
accountability and stewardship of taxpayer resources by enhancing 
procedures, documenting requirements, and providing oversight of these 
incentives.
    Starting in 2017, VA updated Department policy on 3R incentives to 
establish internal controls and improve oversight. Specifically, VA 
began requiring annual certification that the incentive was appropriate 
and in compliance with policy; had succession plans to reduce long-term 
reliance on incentives; and established residency before payment 
receipt. In the years since, VA has continued iterating and 
implementing additional improvements including the following:

      Requiring a standard form to capture all information 
required by law.

      Aligning the use of 3Rs with shortage/hard-to-fill 
positions.

      Obtaining authorization/justification before including 3R 
incentives in the job announcement.

      Tracking unfulfilled service obligations.

      Improving coordination on debt collection and enforcing 
debt collection.

      Reviewing retention incentives annually and terminating 
them in a timely manner if they were not needed.

    3R incentives help VA fill critical positions providing direct care 
and services to Veterans. Moreover, offering these incentives enables 
VA to address periods of increased demand or sustained industry-wide 
staffing shortages. For example, 3R incentives helped VA rapidly 
respond and compete for talent amid the pandemic and continue to aid in 
attracting doctors and nurses to areas of growing need because of the 
Sergeant First Class Heath Robinson Honoring our Promise to Address 
Comprehensive Toxics Act of 2022.
    However, there is always room for improvement, and VA must continue 
to refine its governance of these incentives, including proper 
documentation of their use, ensuring the correct signatures are in 
place, and ensuring the justification for employing a 3R incentive is 
sound. VA must also develop stronger oversight mechanisms and 
discontinue the use of multi-year retention incentives.
    Accomplishing this requires VA to build upon current policy and 
process, enhancing systems, and training on 3R incentives. The 
Department is establishing quality control and accountability measures 
and ensuring oversight responsibilities are risk-based and completed in 
a timely manner. VA is also identifying ways to improve automation and 
technology, which has enabled VA to complete documents in the system, 
to centrally store documents, to build in controls and alerts, and to 
create dashboards and recurring reports.
    Finally, VHA is implementing a comprehensive strategy to enhance 
the management and oversight of VA incentive programs. This includes 
continuing to monitor internal control procedures and guidance to 
ensure that 3R documentation is appropriately maintained in accordance 
with VA policy. VHA will conduct program monitoring quarterly and 
utilize uniform checklists and templates nationwide. Additionally, VHA 
is developing training and materials to ensure proper documentation for 
succession plans, performance ratings, and certifications. To better 
enforce policy compliance, VHA is creating oversight plans and a 
strengthened technical review program to assess every incentive for 
technical adherence. An enterprise-level oversight monitoring component 
will act as a second-level compliance check at the national level. VHA 
aims to support compliance with record retention requirements. 
Furthermore, specific performance metrics tied to operational 
leadership and human resources (HR) leadership are being developed to 
reinforce the importance of proper governance and oversight for VA 
incentive programs.
    As a part of this Administration's workforce optimization efforts, 
VA has identified several ideas for improving VA to better serve 
Veterans. One of the proposals being discussed is centralizing HR 
functions, which would strengthen the HR structure to process, monitor, 
and review 3R incentives. The current structure has been cited as being 
too decentralized with multiple layers of bureaucracy. VA will continue 
to keep Congress informed through initiatives such as monthly Eight 
Corners briefings from Assistant Secretary for Human Resources and 
Administration/Operations, Security, and Preparedness Mark Engelbaum as 
the Department continues its reviews of organizations and services.
    VA is fully committed to addressing the issues identified in the 
Inspector General's report, ``Recruitment, Relocation, and Recruitment 
Incentives for VHA Positions Need Improved Oversight,'' and to 
strengthening our processes in support of VA's mission. To date, we 
have closed one of the eight recommendations and are on schedule to 
close five more in September 2025. We will complete the final two 
recommendations by March 2026. We are confident that the steps we have 
already taken and continue to take will strengthen our incentive 
program governance and oversight, leading to more effective outcomes 
and better service to the Nation's Veterans.
    While the 3R incentive program is an important tool for the 
Department in attracting and retaining a vibrant and talented 
workforce, it is not enough for VA to remain competitive with industry. 
VA looks forward to working with the committee on strategies to ensure 
VA is an employer of choice for physicians (in critical need 
specialties).

Conclusion

    I am proud to be part of this noble mission to care for the 
Nation's Veterans. I look forward to working with each of you on this 
Committee on ways to more effectively and efficiently provide enhanced 
oversight and governance of incentive payment practices, ensuring that 
VA can continue to provide the best care and services to Veterans and 
their families. This concludes my testimony. My colleague and I are 
prepared to respond to any questions you may have.

                   Prepared Statement of Shawn Steele
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

                  Prepared Statement of Sheila Elliott

    Chairwoman Kiggans, Ranking Member Ramirez, and Members of the 
Oversight and Investigations Subcommittee:

    The American Federation of Government Employees, AFL-CIO (AFGE) and 
its National Veterans Affairs Council (NVAC) appreciate the opportunity 
to testify at today's subcommittee hearing titled ``Counting the Money: 
Preventing Fraud and Abuse in VA's Bonus Payment Practices for VA 
Employees.'' My name is Dr. Sheila Elliott, and for the past 35 years, 
I have and continue to serve as a Pharmacist at the Hampton, VA, VA 
Medical Center. I have also, until retiring last month, proudly served 
over 15 years as the president of AFGE Local 2328, which represents 
most direct patient care staff at the VAMC and its surrounding clinics.
    On behalf of the 320,000 Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) 
employees AFGE represents, approximately a third of whom are veterans 
themselves, it is a privilege to offer AFGE's views on how the VA 
should improve recruitment and retention for the VA workforce, both 
within the scope of recruitment, retention, and relocation bonus 
program, and beyond.

        OIG Report

    On June 12, 2025, the VA OIG released a report titled 
``Recruitment, Relocation, and Retention Invectives for VHA Positions 
Need Improved Oversight'' (``OIG report'').\1\ As the report states, 
``[t]o address occupational shortages and facilitate hiring efforts, VA 
leverages Federal regulations that allow agencies to offer recruitment, 
relocation, and retention incentives to encourage candidates to accept 
positions that are difficult to fill or to keep high-quality staff who 
may otherwise leave.'' \2\, \3\ In this report, OIG 
highlighted several problems with the administration and oversight of 
this recruitment, retention, and relocation bonus (``RRR bonus '') 
program that AFGE agrees with.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \1\ ``Recruitment, Relocation, and Retention Invectives for VHA 
Positions Need Improved Oversight'' VA OIG 23-01695-94 Page i June 12, 
2025
    \2\ Id.
    \3\ Citing ``Recruitment, relocation, and retention incentives are 
authorized under 5 U.S.C. Sec. Sec.  5753 and 5754 are extended to 
title 38 employees under the authority of 38 U.S.C. Sec.  7410. Title 
38 employees are those individuals appointed under 38 U.S.C. Sec.  
7401, which permits the VA Secretary to hire personnel necessary for 
the health care of veterans and can include physicians, nurses, and 
dentists.''

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
        HR Modernization

    Chief among the problems identified in this report is the failure 
of VA Human Resources (HR). While VA did use this tool to recruit and 
retain VHA clinicians, there were clearly problems in how the RRR bonus 
program was administered to ensure that the correct employees were 
receiving the benefits and that the process was carried out 
appropriately. Many of these problems were first identified by the OIG 
in 2017.\4\ Unfortunately, the report goes on to note that the ``OIG 
team found VHA did not take sufficient steps to sustain or enforce the 
updated VA policies to ensure incentive packages were completed 
appropriately before payments were initiated. Further, VISN human 
resources staff acknowledged they did not always adhere to policy.'' 
\5\ The report then digs deeper by identifying ``Beginning in Fiscal 
Year 2019, VA also consolidated human resources responsibilities from 
the facility level to the VISN level, including oversight of 
incentives. During this transition, according to human resources 
officials, turnover led to a shortage of trained staff to conduct 
incentive oversight responsibilities.'' \6\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \4\ VA OIG, Audit of VA's Recruitment, Relocation, and Retention 
Incentives.
    \5\ Recruitment, Relocation, and Retention Invectives for VHA 
Positions Need Improved Oversight'' VA OIG 23-01695-94 Page 11 June 12, 
2025
    \6\ Id at 12.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    AFGE has continuously criticized the HR centralization or 
modernization that the OIG is citing here, agreeing with the conclusion 
that it has led to increased turnover at the VA. Additionally, AFGE 
believes that HR not being in the facilities, and lacking familiarity 
with the workforce and the veterans they serve, exacerbates this 
turnover. In aggregate, this undermines the ability of HR professionals 
to properly serve employees generally, as well as administering the RRR 
bonus program. Furthermore, the OIG's citing of multiple instances of 
poor record keeping not only proves that certain employees may have 
incorrectly received the reward, but it also makes it harder to 
determine who has correctly received RRR bonuses.
    In preparation for this hearing, when contacting the Hampton VAMC, 
we could find no public repository of data to show who has received RRR 
bonuses over the past several years. However, after reaching out to 800 
bargaining unit members at Hampton VAMC this month on our own, AFGE had 
nine bargaining unit members self-report, from a variety of 
professions, that four recruitment bonuses, four retention bonuses, and 
on relocation bonus were awarded. These bonuses were awarded between 
2021 and 2025.
    While AFGE is pleased that at least nine employees received these 
RRR bonuses, we have no way of knowing if this benefit is being under, 
properly, or over utilized at Hampton VAMC compared to the rest of VHA. 
However, regardless of its relative utilization to other facilities, I 
can say with decades of experience at this facility that there is 
significant room for improvement, both at the VAMC itself and the 
brand-new North Battlefield Outpatient Clinic, which opened in 2025 
with only 150 of 550 staffing positions filled. While AFGE acknowledges 
that medical facilities are not filled overnight, we urge the VA to 
use, and this committee to question the VA on how, this RRR bonus 
program is being used to fill positions and increase capacity at the 
North Battlefield Outpatient Clinic and at the Hampton VAMC?

Other ways to improve Recruitment at Retention:

    In addition to improving the RRR bonus program, AFGE has many other 
priorities within this committee's jurisdiction that would directly 
improve recruitment and retention.

        AFGE/NVAC Collective Bargaining Agreement:

    As this committee is aware, on March 27, 2025, President Trump 
signed the Exclusions from Federal Labor-Management Relations Programs 
Executive Order 14251 (EO) eliminating the collective bargaining rights 
of 1.5 million Federal employees at agencies including VA. This EO 
abuses the National Security exemption in Title 5 to eliminate 
collective bargaining rights in agencies that have little or no 
national security mission, including the VA workforce. Is strikes down 
a central pillar of the 1978 Civil Service Reform Act enshrined in 
Title 5 of the U.S. Code that governs the merit-based system of 
selecting most Federal employees, protects whistleblowers, and provides 
due process to Federal employees who have been unfairly disciplined or 
terminated.
    Continuing to deny large swaths of the VA workforce collective 
bargaining rights, will continue to harm recruitment and retention. As 
there is a critical shortage of health professionals in this country, 
why would high quality candidates want to serve in the VA, when they 
would retain not only union protections, but better salaries in the 
private sector? This is particularly egregious, as Secretary Collins 
played favorites when choosing whom to exempt from the EO, not by job 
description or duties, but by which union represents the employees in 
question. AFGE, as well as several of our sister unions, were not 
granted an exemption, and our members, despite having identical jobs to 
those in other facilities who were exempted from this EO, lost their 
collective bargaining rights. AFGE urges members of this committee to 
co-sponsor and support H.R. 2550, the ``Protect America's Workforce 
Act,'' which would nullify this illegal executive order.

        Reforming 38 USC 7422

    As AFGE has testified to before this subcommittee, 38 USC 7422 has 
had a negative effect on recruitment and retention for Title 38 
employees at the VA. Under this statute, the VA can invoke 7422 to deny 
a grievance for a Title 38 employee based on ``professional conduct or 
competence'' (including ``direct patient care'' or ``clinical 
competence''), peer review, or ``the establishment, determination, or 
adjustment of employee compensation.''
    AFGE is proud to have worked with members of this committee in 
bipartisan fashion to craft the narrowly tailored ``VA Correct 
Compensation Act'' to better define the compensation language of the 
statute. AFGE has also long supported the ``VA Employee Fairness Act'' 
(H.R. 3261) which would effectively abolish 7422.
    Any legislative action to rein in the abuse of 7422 by management 
would be a critical step to improve recruitment and retention of the VA 
workforce. However, while AFGE and other unions are subjected to EO 
14251, there is no contract for affected Title 38 employees to file a 
grievance under. AFGE urges, particularly after the result of 
litigation or legislation related to EO 14251, for this committee to 
reform 7422 to better retain its Title 38 workforce.

        Telework

    AFGE has long argued for the benefits of allowing telework or 
remote work for employees who can perform their duties remotely. Within 
the VHA space, this is particularly true for clinicians who practice in 
whole or in large part through telemedicine. However, since most 
telework has been rescinded by this administration, many clinicians 
have had to report to a VA facility, and have been required to interact 
with patients remotely, often in crowded bullpens, to discuss private 
matters. This has harmed morale and retention of mission-critical and 
hard-to-recruit clinicians at the VA. Ironically, one of the RRR 
bonuses that AFGE could find was awarded to a former Hampton VAMC 
employee who for the last 3 years was a remote mental healthcare 
provider who was leaving their position due to the end of remote work. 
However, instead of leaving the VA, this employee received a relocation 
bonus to move to another facility. This has negatively affected the 
capacity of Hampton and reflects VA's overly broad approach to telework 
and telehealth.

        Conclusion

    I hope that my testimony today leads the subcommittees to better 
consider ways to improve recruitment and retention at VA for 
clinicians. AFGE and the NVAC stand ready to work with the House 
Veterans' Affairs Committee and VA to make these recommendations and 
better enable VA employees to serve veterans. Thank you, and I look 
forward to answering your questions.

                                 [all]