[House Hearing, 119 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]


               GAME CHANGER: THE NLRB, STUDENT-ATHLETES,
                  AND THE FUTURE OF COLLEGE SPORTS

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               Before The

                          SUBCOMMITTEE ON HEALTH, 
                       EMPLOYMENT, LABOR, AND PENSIONS

                                 OF THE

                  COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND WORKFORCE
                     U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS

                             FIRST SESSION

                               __________



             HEARING HELD IN WASHINGTON, DC, APRIL 8, 2025

                               __________

                            Serial No. 119-8

                               __________

    Printed for the use of the Committee on Education and Workforce
    
[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]    


        Available via: edworkforce.house.gov or www.govinfo.gov
        
                                __________

                   U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE                    
61-445 PDF                  WASHINGTON : 2025                  
          
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------     
        
        
                  COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND WORKFORCE

                    TIM WALBERG, Michigan, Chairman

JOE WILSON, South Carolina           ROBERT C. ``BOBBY'' SCOTT, 
VIRGINIA FOXX, North Carolina            Virginia,
GLENN THOMPSON, Pennsylvania           Ranking Member
GLENN GROTHMAN, Wisconsin            JOE COURTNEY, Connecticut
ELISE M. STEFANIK, New York          FREDERICA S. WILSON, Florida
RICK W. ALLEN, Georgia               SUZANNE BONAMICI, Oregon
JAMES COMER, Kentucky                MARK TAKANO, California
BURGESS OWENS, Utah                  ALMA S. ADAMS, North Carolina
LISA C. McCLAIN, Michigan            MARK DeSAULNIER, California
MARY E. MILLER, Illinois             DONALD NORCROSS, New Jersey
JULIA LETLOW, Louisiana              LUCY McBATH, Georgia
KEVIN KILEY, California              JAHANA HAYES, Connecticut
MICHAEL A. RULLI, Ohio               ILHAN OMAR, Minnesota
JAMES C. MOYLAN, Guam                HALEY M. STEVENS, Michigan
ROBERT F. ONDER, Jr., Missouri       GREG CASAR, Texas
RYAN MACKENZIE, Pennsylvania         SUMMER L. LEE, Pennsylvania
MICHAEL BAUMGARTNER, Washington      JOHN W. MANNION, New York
MARK HARRIS, North Carolina          VACANCY
MARK B. MESSMER, Indiana
VACANCY

                     R.J. Laukitis, Staff Director
              Veronique Pluviose, Minority Staff Director
                                 ------                                

        SUBCOMMITTEE ON HEALTH, EMPLOYMENT, LABOR, AND PENSIONS

                     RICK ALLEN, Georgia, Chairman

ROBERT F. ONDER, Jr., Missouri       Mark DeSaulnier, California,
JOE WILSON, South Carolina             Ranking Member
VIRGINIA FOXX, North Carolina        JOE COURTNEY, Connecticut
JAMES COMER, Kentucky                DONALD NORCROSS, New Jersey
BURGESS OWENS, Utah                  LUCY McBATH, Georgia
LISA C. McCLAIN, Michigan            JAHANA HAYES, Connecticut
MICHAEL A. RULLI, Ohio               GREG CASAR, Texas
RYAN MACKENZIE, Pennsylvania         SUMMER L. LEE, Pennsylvania
MICHAEL BAUMGARTNER, Washington      JOHN W. MANNION, New York
                                     MARK TAKANO, California
                          
                          C  O  N  T  E  N  T  S

                              ----------                              
                                                                   Page

Hearing held on April 8, 2025....................................     1

                           OPENING STATEMENTS

    Allen, Hon. Rick, Chairman, Subcommittee on Health, 
      Employment, Labor, and Pensions............................     1
        Prepared statement of....................................     3
    DeSaulnier, Hon. Mark, Ranking Member, Subcommittee Health, 
      Employment, Labor, and Pensions............................     5
        Prepared statement of....................................     8

                               WITNESSES

    Nash, Daniel L., Shareholder, Littler........................    10
        Prepared statement of....................................    12
    Wynne, Morgyn, Former Softball Student-Athlete, Oklahoma 
      State University...........................................    27
        Prepared statement of....................................    29
    Huma, Ramogi, Executive Director, National College Players 
      Association................................................    37
        Prepared statement of....................................    39
    McWilliams Parker, Jacqie, Commissioner, Central 
      Intercollegiate Athletic Association.......................    44
        Prepared statement of....................................    46

                         ADDITIONAL SUBMISSIONS

    Chairman Allen:
        Letter to Congress from the NCAA Division I Student-
          Athlete Advisory Committee (SAAC)......................   124
        Letter to Congress from the NCAA Division II Student-
          Athlete Advisory Committee (SAAC)......................   128
        Letter to Congress from the NCAA Division III Student-
          Athlete Advisory Committee (SAAC)......................   130
        Letter dated February 17, 2025, from HBCU commissioners..   133
    Lee, Hon. Summer, a Representative in Congress from the State 
      of Pennsylvania:
        Article dated May 6, 2020, titled ``Survey: Nearly A 
          Quarter of Division I Athletes Face Food Insecurity''..   106
    McBath, Hon. Lucy, a Representative in Congress from the 
      State of Georgia:
        Ways and Means Committee memo............................    52

 
                        GAME CHANGER: THE NLRB,
                  STUDENT-ATHLETES, AND THE FUTURE OF
                              COLLEGE SPORTS

                              ----------                              


                         Tuesday, April 8, 2025

                  House of Representatives,
    Subcommittee on Health, Employment, Labor, and 
                                          Pensions,
                      Committee on Education and Workforce,
                                                    Washington, DC.
    The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:15 a.m., in 
Room 2175, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Rick Allen 
(Chairman of the Subcommittee) presiding.
    Present: Representatives Allen, Onder, Foxx, McClain, 
Baumgartner, Walberg, DeSaulnier, Courtney, McBath, Hayes, Lee, 
Mannion, and Scott.
    Staff present: Vlad Cerga, Director of Information 
Technology; Maren Emmerson, Intern; Libby Kearns, Press 
Assistant; Katerina Kerska, Legislative Assistant; Trey Kovacs, 
Director of Workforce Policy; Campbell Ladd, Clerk; R.J. 
Laukitis, Staff Director; Georgie Littlefair, Clerk; Danny 
Marca, Director of Information Technology; Brad Mannion, 
Professional Staff Member; John Martin, Deputy Director of 
Workforce Policy/Counsel; Audra McGeorge, Communications 
Director; Eli Mitchell, Legislative Assistant; Daniel Nadel, 
Legislative Assistant; Ethan Pann, Deputy Press Secretary and 
Digital Director; Kane Riddell, Staff Assistant; Sara 
Robertson, Press Secretary; Ann Vogel, Director of Operations; 
Heather Wadyka, Professional Staff Member; Ali Watson, Director 
of Member Services; James Whittaker, General Counsel; Ariel 
Box, Minority Intern; Ilana Brunner, Minority General Counsel; 
Ni'Aisha Banks, Minority Staff Assistant; Bryan Gonzalez, 
Minority Grad Intern; Stephanie Lalle, Minority Communications 
Director; Dhrtvan Sherman, Minority Research Assistant; Raiyana 
Malone, Minority Press Secretary; Marie McGrew, Minority Press 
Assistant; Ben Noenickx, Minority Intern; Mason Pesek, Minority 
Labor Policy Counsel; Veronique Pluviose, Minority Staff 
Director; Elizabeth Tomoloju, Minority Intern; Dylan Dunson, 
Minority Intern; Banyon Vassar, Minority Director of IT.
    Chairman Allen. The Subcommittee on Health, Employment, 
Labor and Pensions will come to order. I note that a quorum is 
present. Without objection, the Chair is authorized to call a 
recess at any time. We are here this morning to discuss a topic 
that is very important to me, and many of the constituents I 
represent, which is the future of college sports.
    As you know, there have been significant changes to the 
landscape of intercollegiate athletics of the last few years 
following the NCAA's updated policy to allow student-athletes 
to receive compensation for their name, image and likeness, or 
we will refer to it as NIL.
    Just recently, a judge held a hearing for a final approval 
of the historic potential settlement agreement in the House vs. 
NCAA case, which will allow schools that opt into the agreement 
to direct a share of revenue with their student-athletes.
    One threat, that still looms large to the foundation of 
college athletics, is efforts by activists and the National 
Labor Board Appointees by the BidenHarris administration to 
deem student-athletes as employees.
    Because of this, there are many unresolved questions 
regarding how college sports will look in the future. Despite 
more money than ever flowing into college athletics, 
universities are supporting fewer sports teams due to a range 
of challenges.
    This reality results in fewer scholarship opportunities for 
young American athletes, many of them will not become 
professional athletes, but rather play sports as part of their 
educational pursuits. At its core, college sports are about 
enhancing student-athletes in their academic experience as well 
as enhancing their careers after graduation.
    Unfortunately, that mission was threatened by President 
Biden's radical NLRB stemming from former General Counsel 
Jennifer Abruzzo's memo providing guidance to all NLRB field 
offices that certain student-athletes are employees under the 
National Labor Relations Act. The mandate to reclassify 
student-athletes as employees would have devastating 
consequences.
    The increased cost of unionization and administrative 
headaches would have threatened the viability of many college 
athletic programs, including many women's sports and small 
school athletic programs, resulting in fewer teams, fewer 
scholarships, and fewer opportunities for our young people.
    Additionally, employee status would have triggered 
unintended consequences for student-athletes, and could have 
led them to receiving fewer benefits, having scholarships 
revoked for poor performance, and having scholarships taxed by 
the IRS.
    While the Trump NLRB Acting General Counsel rightfully 
withdrew the Abruzzo memo in the relevant cases before the NLRB 
have been withdrawn, it is still incumbent upon the Committee 
to discuss whether Federal legislation is needed to ensure a 
future board does not attempt to impose the same wrong-headed 
policy.
    I now yield to the Ranking Member for an opening statement.
    [The statement of Chairman Allen follows:]
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    Mr. DeSaulnier. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I want to 
thank all the witnesses for being here today. As I mentioned 
during the hearing, we convened on this subject last March. 
College athletics should be--college athletes should be treated 
like people, first and foremost, and students, not just sources 
of revenue for their college and universities.
    We should stand with them, ensure their well-being, and 
reject any effort to strip away their right to organize and 
collectively bargain if necessary. Organizations, like the 
NCAA, boast massive revenues from the hard work of college 
athletes. While these college athletes are often taken 
advantage of and mistreated, college athletes put in long hours 
on top of their classes, homework, extracurriculars and even a 
job, if they are permitted to have one.
    In the 2023 to 2024 fiscal year, the NCAA raked in almost 
$1.4 billion in revenue, a $91 million increase from the prior 
year. In 2023, Division I schools spent over $3.6 billion on 
coach's salaries, making up the largest spending category of 
these schools' athletic finances.
    College athletes are understandably looking for ways to 
level the playing field and gain more of a voice. 
Unfortunately, some of my colleagues have pushed to 
unilaterally prevent any college athlete from being designated 
as an employee. This measure would essentially grant the NCAA a 
blank check to avoid all responsibility for employment 
liability and allow rampant mistreatment of athletes without 
recourse.
    Additionally, providing any special carveout to the NCAA 
where college athletes would be exempt from employee 
classification would inevitably rob athletes of rights to which 
they are entitled, while also creating a new category outside 
of traditional employment that would be ripe for exploitation 
and abuse.
    We should not be in the business of creating loopholes that 
allow athletes to be exploited, potentially harming their 
health and safety. Many of us on this side are not advocating 
to broadly classify all college athletes as employees. We 
recognize that there is a large spectrum of college athletics, 
and that some programs have greater resources and exert more 
control over athletes than others, particularly concerned about 
money and support from the major sports, football and 
basketball, to minor sports, which are such a big part of the 
college environment and athletics.
    That is why in many ways our existing labor and employment 
laws are rooted in a fact-specific analysis. This is a 
complicated issue that only grows more complex as the years go 
on, and the college sports industry gets bigger and bigger. 
That being said, if an athlete meets the legal standard of 
being an employee, as set out in the Fair Labor Standards Act 
and the National Labor Relations Act, then that athlete should 
be afforded the same considerations and protections of any 
other employee, including the protected right to form a union 
and bargain for better conditions and a greater share of the 
product, which is enormous, of their labor.
    Even President Trump-appointed Supreme Court Justice Brett 
Kavanaugh stated, ``College and student-athletes could 
potentially engage in collective bargaining or seek some other 
negotiated agreement to provide student-athletes a fair share 
of the revenues that they generate for their colleges,'' from 
Justice Kavanaugh.
    College athletes should be treated with fairness and 
dignity. I hope we can have a constructive conversation about 
this today, and as I have said, it is complicated. One rule 
does not apply, except that if you are clearly an employee by 
Federal law, then you are an employee.
    Finally, I think it is important to acknowledge the broader 
context in which this hearing is happening. Last month, the 
President issued an executive order dismantling the Department 
of Education and cutting its workforce in half. This decision 
seems bound to impact the Department work administrating 
student loans and Pell Grants among other key areas.
    In the coming weeks, my Republican colleges on this 
Committee are likely to cut critical student loan programs--
hopefully they will not--to help finance their multi-trillion-
dollar tax cut for the wealthy. In the next month or so, 
college students will be graduating and entering a working 
world that is currently being thrown into chaos, thanks to the 
administration's regressive tariffs that economists fear could 
spur a recession.
    College athletes and all college students and their 
families could suffer real harm from these decisions. We must 
be thoughtful when we make these decisions, and we cannot 
divorce the conversation we're having today from the policies 
being pursued by the administration.
    I thank the Chair, and I yield back the balance of my time.
    [The statement of Ranking Member DeSaulnier follows:]
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    Chairman Allen. I thank the Ranking Member. Pursuant to 
Committee Rule 8-C, all members who wish to insert written 
statements into the record may do so by submitting them to the 
Committee Clerk electronically in Microsoft Word format by 5 
p.m., 14 days after this hearing.
    Without objection, the hearing record will remain open for 
14 days to allow such statements and other extraneous material 
noted during the hearing to be submitted for the original 
hearing record.
    I will now turn to the introduction of our four 
distinguished witnesses. The first witness is Daniel L. Nash, a 
Shareholder of Littler, a law firm here in Washington, DC.
    Our second witness is Ms. Morgyn Wynne, a former Softball 
Student-Athlete at Oklahoma State University in Stillwater, 
Oklahoma, and I understand you all won a lot of championships 
there, thank you. I congratulate you on that.
    Our third witness is Mr. Ramogi Huma, the Executive 
Director of the National College Players Association in Norco, 
California. Our last witness is Ms. Jacqie McWilliams Parker, a 
Commissioner for the Central Intercollegiate Athletic 
Association in Charlotte, North Carolina.
    We thank the witnesses for being here today, and we look 
forward to your testimony. Pursuant to Committee Rules, I would 
ask that you each limit your oral presentation to a 3-minute 
summary of your written statement. The clock will count down 
from 3 minutes, as Committee members have many questions for 
you, and we would like to spend as much time as possible on 
those questions.
    Pursuant to Committee Rule 8D, and Committee practice, 
however, we will not cutoff your testimony until you reach the 
5-minute mark. I would also like to remind the witnesses to be 
aware of their responsibility to provide accurate information 
to the Subcommittee. I will first recognize Mr. Nash for your 
opening testimony.

    STATEMENT OF MR. DANIEL L. NASH, SHAREHOLDER, LITTLER, 
                        WASHINGTON, D.C.

    Mr. Nash. Thank you, Chairman Allen, Ranking Member 
DeSaulnier, and members of the Subcommittee. Thank you very 
much for the opportunity to testify today, particularly 
concerning the question whether students who participate in 
intercollegiate athletics should be treated as employees of 
their schools.
    I am a lawyer that has practiced labor and employment law 
for over 30 years, particularly in the sports industry, 
including in matters both involving professional sports and 
college athletics. Until recently, the question was well 
settled under our labor and employment laws.
    Historically, participation in college athletics has never 
been deemed to create an employment relationship between the 
students and their schools. Rather, intercollegiate sports have 
always been viewed no differently than the many other 
extracurricular activities in which students participate as an 
important part of their college education.
    However, as this Subcommittee knows, in recent years the 
colleges and universities have faced considerable litigation. 
Some of it existential, claiming that college athletes should 
be paid and entitled to join labor unions. In my view, there 
has been a great deal of misunderstanding in these cases about 
the law and their implications for student-athletes and their 
schools.
    In that regard, let me just suggest a few points worth 
keeping in mind during today's hearing. First, and perhaps most 
importantly, we should be clear about which students we are 
talking about, and which student-athletes have been largely 
ignored in this debate.
    It is no secret that the effort to reclassify student-
athletes have primarily concerned two and only two sports, and 
that is football and basketball. The argument in these cases 
has been that the law should be changed for these student-
athletes because the amount of revenue in those sports has 
changed.
    It is unfair for those students not to share in that 
revenue in the same way that professional athletes do. The 
argument has been they are really professional athletes. 
However, as a matter of labor and employment law, revenue has 
never been a factor, never, in determining whether someone 
should be classified as an employee.
    The arguments about fairness, ignore that unlike a 
commercial business whose revenue is distributed to its 
shareholders as profit. The revenue received by colleges and 
universities related to sports, like football and basketball, 
helps provide scholarships and other financial support to all 
of their student-athletes, including the many Olympic and 
women's sports programs.
    Second, the suggestion that student-athletes should be 
permitted to engage in collective bargaining under a 
professional sports model simply misunderstands how collective 
bargaining works under the labor laws.
    The NLRB recognized this in the Northwestern case in making 
it clear that a single school's team having collective 
bargaining would not be viable, and there would be no plausible 
way to have a broader unit of collective bargaining because 
many of the colleges and universities are public, are 
religiously affiliated and are outside of the NLRB's 
jurisdiction.
    Finally, I want to emphasize one important point. I do not 
believe that it is helpful to frame the arguments surrounding 
the status of student-athletes under the labor laws as either 
pro-union or anti-union. I have worked very closely with, and I 
respect the unions in the professional support leagues who ably 
represent those athletes.
    The young students who attend college and participate in 
extracurricular activities, including intercollegiate sports, 
are not remotely equivalent to professional athletes. Treating 
them as such would not solve the issues facing college sports. 
In fact, I believe the opposite is true, and that Congress 
should make clear that students who participate in 
intercollegiate sports are not employees of their colleges and 
universities.
    I look forward to the Subcommittee's questions.
    [The statement of Mr. Nash follows:]
   [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

    Chairman Allen. Thank you, Mr. Nash. I now recognize Ms. 
Wynne for your testimony.

STATEMENT OF MS. MORGYN WYNNE, FORMER SOFTBALL STUDENT-ATHLETE, 
        OKLAHOMA STATE UNIVERSITY, STILLWATER, OKLAHOMA

    Ms. Wynne. Chairman Allen, Ranking Member DeSaulnier, and 
distinguished members of the Subcommittee, thank you for the 
opportunity to testify before you today. My time as a softball 
student-athlete at Oklahoma State was about more than just 
athletic success. It was about the relationships I built, the 
lessons I learned, and the constant support system that shaped 
me into the person I am today.
    I fear that shifting student-athletes into an employment 
model would erode the very essence of what makes college 
athletics so transformative. My experience as OSU was rooted in 
a culture of academic support, athletic excellence and personal 
development, values that should be protected and preserved for 
generations of student-athletes to come.
    As an underclassman, I struggled not just on the field, but 
in ways beyond the game, especially as a 17-year-old first 
generation college student. When I entered the transfer portal, 
I saw an environment where I could thrive, not just as an 
athlete, but as a student and person, and OSU provided exactly 
that.
    I found a coaching staff that prioritized our academics and 
our futures, ensuring that our education remained the 
foundation of our experience. Unlike some programs where 
academic choices are restricted, my teammates and I were 
empowered to pursue any major and career path we desired.
    Practice schedules were built around our class commitments, 
demonstrating our coach's genuine care for our futures beyond 
the game. Because of this I was named an academic all American 
and graduated in the top 1 percent of my senior class in 2023. 
More than just academic and athletic success, what defined my 
time as OSU was the culture of trust, respect, and open 
communication.
    Our coaches curated a sense of family and camaraderie that 
is something I cherish, and I deeply fear may be lost if 
student-athletes transition into an employment model. As former 
Co-Chair of Division 1 Student-Athlete Advisory Committee, and 
a current Board of Governors voting member, I have visited with 
hundreds of athletes across the divisions virtually and in 
person on this subject.
    I have truly witnessed firsthand the fear and uncertainty 
this conversation brings to athletes across the country. It is 
easy to frame this issue as one of fairness, and of athletes 
getting what they deserve, but the reality is that many mid-
major institutions and non-revenue sports simply do not have 
the financial resources to sustain an employment model.
    This conversation is not just about the implications for 
current student-athletes. It is about the generations of 
student-athletes who will come after us. If schools are forced 
to cut sports to afford employment costs, we are losing life-
changing and transformational opportunities for thousands of 
aspiring NCAA athletes.
    The collegiate model, while unperfect, has provided so many 
of us the chance to pursue both an education and the sport we 
love. We should be working to enhance support and resources for 
student-athletes, not implementing a system that could limit 
access and opportunity. I urge decisionmakers to truly listen 
to the voices of those who will be impacted the most.
    College athletics should not be dictated by financial gain 
alone, or reduced to a business transaction, silencing the 
voices of the majority. We cannot afford to lose what makes 
this experience so invaluable. The education, the growth, and 
the chance to be a part of something bigger. It should be 
protected and preserved with this at the forefront of our 
minds. Thank you.
    [The statement of Ms. Wynne follows:]
    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    

    Chairman Allen. Next, I will recognize Mr. Huma for your 
testimony.

  STATEMENT OF MR. RAMOGI HUMA, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, NATIONAL 
         COLLEGE PLAYERS ASSOCIATION, NORCO, CALIFORNIA

    Mr. Huma. Good morning. My name is Ramogi Huma. I am a 
former UCLA football player, and the Executive Director of the 
NCPA, the National College Players Association. The NCPA is a 
nonprofit advocacy organization with a mission to protect 
future, current, and former college athletes of all sports. The 
NCPA spearheaded the college athletes' rights movement since 
its launch in 2001.
    First, I would like to thank Chairman Walberg and Allen, 
and Ranking Member Scott and DeSaulnier for inviting me to 
testify today. College sports is an $18 billion a year 
industry, where men's basketball coaches can earn $9 million 
per year. Football coaches can make $13 million per year, and 
even athletic directors now make more than $3 million per year. 
The NCAA conferences and schools are enriching themselves while 
working to strip equal rights and deny basic protections from 
college athletes whose talents generate this revenue.
    The NCPA continues to advocate that college athletes 
deserve equal rights under the law. Ensuring all Americans have 
equal rights under the law should not be a matter of debate. 
This includes labor law. However, it is important to highlight 
that college athlete employment status and collective 
bargaining is not an urgent issue. There are no active NLRB 
cases, and any new case would take many, many years to resolve.
    However, there are urgent issues in college sports that 
Congress should address immediately. NCAA sports is a predatory 
industry that exploits college athletes physically, sexually, 
and economically. To date, the NCAA and conferences refuse to 
impose any consequences for personnel who kill an athlete in a 
hazardous workout, sexually abuse an athlete, or force an 
athlete with a concussion back into the same game.
    I have met too many grieving, devastated parents, like the 
parents of Calvin Dickey Jr. and Jordan McNair who died 
preventable deaths in NCAA football workouts at Bucknell 
University and the University of Maryland. I do not want to 
have to have any more conversations from survivors, like former 
San Jose State gymnast Amy LeClair, whose team athletic trainer 
sexually abused her and other female athletes for 14 years 
under the guise of medical treatment while their university 
failed to adequately respond to the request for help.
    We have all read the headlines of hundreds of college 
athletes at colleges who have suffered the same fate, while the 
NCAA and conferences turn a blind eye. Make no mistake, these 
abuses are not--they are not rare; they are rampant. In 
surveys, half of Division I athletic trainers report being 
pressured by coaches to play athletes before they are ready and 
returning players with concussions to the same game.
    About 20 percent of coaches return athletes to play who are 
deemed medically ineligible, and more than 1 in 4 college 
athletes report being sexually assaulted or harassed by a 
campus authority figure. All legal pathways to address these 
serious problems should be available to athletes: Federal and 
State legislation, judicial action, and a path toward 
collective bargaining.
    The solution certainly will not come from the NCAA, which 
coldly asserts that it has no duty to protect college athletes. 
This is an indefensible position, but it begs the question: who 
is responsible? Because universities that are abusing athletes 
receive Federal funds, it is the NCPA's position that Congress 
shares responsibility in addressing these issues. Instead of 
solving these issues, the NCAA and conferences are now 
demanding Congress eliminate athletes' ability to collectively 
bargain for these protections.
    They are also demanding Congress enshrine into Federal law 
exploitative restrictions included in the House vs. NCAA 
lawsuit settlement. The parties are actually trying to liken 
this terrible settlement to a collective bargaining agreement. 
No pro-athlete union in America would agree to these terms. 
This supposed collective bargaining agreement includes no 
safety standards, no medical coverage, zero dollars in 
guaranteed money, loopholes that can ban all athlete and IO 
compensation from universities, the elimination of about $2 
billion in NIL pay from collectives so schools can re-
monopolize money from athletic boosters, and a requirement that 
participating universities cut their rosters. It is a 
requirement.
    These unfair terms only underscore why college athletes 
should have a seat at the table, and why Congress should 
intervene to help. The NCAA and conferences need accountability 
from Congress on these issues, not a bailout. The NCPA requests 
that Congress only pass legislation to adopt broad-based 
reform, including the enforcement of safety standards to 
prevent serious injury, abuse, and death among college 
athletes. Thank you.
    [The statement of Mr. Huma follows:]
    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Chairman Allen. Thank you, Mr. Huma. Last, I recognize Ms. 
McWilliams Parker for your testimony.

   STATEMENT OF MS. JACQIE MCWILLIAMS PARKER, COMMISSIONER, 
CENTRAL INTERCOLLEGIATE ATHLETIC ASSOCIATION, CHARLOTTE, NORTH 
                            CAROLINA

    Ms. McWilliams Parker. Thank you. Good morning, Chairman 
Allen, Ranking Member DeSaulnier, and distinguished 
Subcommittee members. My name is Jacqie McWilliams Parker, and 
for more than three decades my life has been immersed in 
college athletics, as a student-athlete, a coach, and now a 
Commissioner of the Central Intercollegiate Athletic 
Association, I have experienced a life-changing pattern of 
college sports in so many ways.
    My mission is to ensure college sports continues to create 
opportunities for generations like it once created for me. As 
Commissioner of the CIAA, first established HBCU Conference, 
one of four conferences of historically black colleges and 
universities, it is our responsibility as leaders to be gate 
keepers to protect and advocate for our member institutions and 
student-athletes in our conferences.
    That is why I'm here today, to express my great desire for 
Congress to pass legislation that supports a future for college 
sports that allows athletic departments of all sizes and 
varieties, including HBCUs to thrive. In recent years, there 
has been a massive and long overdue effort to elevate and 
support--the support and the benefits provided to our student-
athletes, including expanded scholarships guarantees, the 
creation of a new post-eligibility health insurance program, 
and enhanced access to academic and career services.
    Meeting the needs of our student-athletes remains an 
ongoing effort. Progress has been tremendous, and the 
commitment from college sports leaders to driving continued 
change runs deep. As these positive changes have moved forward 
it has become clear that there are limits to what we in college 
sports alone can address.
    I am greatly concerned that without congressional action, 
policies that negatively impact the student-athlete's 
experience and financial viability of our HBCUs are at risk of 
taking hold. In particular, there are two areas where I believe 
congressional action is essential to assuring college sports 
provides opportunities for schools and sports of all types.
    First, we need to confirm that student-athletes are not 
employees, unlike the large institutions that generate 
significant revenue through media rights, sponsorships, and 
ticket sales, HBCUs often struggle to cover the full cost of 
athletic programs.
    Transitioning student-athletes to an employment model would 
exacerbate the strain and deficit on our already strapped 
athletic department budgets, likely leading to downgrading or 
outright eliminating certain sports, or reducing the number of 
scholarships and other resources available to student-athletes.
    Second, we need to ensure that NCAA receives sufficient 
limited liability protections so that it can perform its 
purpose, working with student-athletes, member institutions, 
and conferences like mine to make and enforce basic rules to 
determine student-athlete eligibility limits, and so that 
schools across the country are competing on a level playing 
field.
    Much of my life story is a testament to the power of 
college sports, and it is a privilege to be here today to 
advocate for HBCUs and future generations of student-athletes. 
Thank you for the opportunity to share my voice.
    [The statement of Ms. McWilliams Parker follows:]
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    Chairman Allen. Thank you, Ms. McWilliams Parker. Under 
Rule--Committee Rule 9, we will now question witnesses under 
the 5-minute rule. I will recognize myself for 5 minutes. Ms. 
Wynne, you said in your written testimony that as former Co-
Chair of Division 1 Student Athletic Advisory Committee, you 
had the opportunity to speak with hundreds of student-athletes 
who expressed fears about what employment status could mean for 
them and the future of college sports.
    What were some of the top concerns you heard from your 
peers?
    Ms. Wynne. Thank you for the question. The top concern from 
the student-athletes I have spoken to is the ongoing threat of 
cutting athletic opportunity for thousands of student-athletes 
to pay for the student-athletes that generate the most revenue, 
which would ultimately create an uneven playing field between 
the athletes.
    Another fear is the potential decline in the prioritization 
of academics, sorry. Most student-athletes who play in college 
do not go on to play professionally and choose their schools to 
pursue academics. We fear becoming employees would put a 
substantial emphasis on job security through athletic 
performance over the current academic eligibility centric 
model.
    Chairman Allen. Thank you. Mr. Nash, like other college 
students, student-athletes must satisfy certain academic 
standards to gain admission to the universities and to 
participate in extracurricular activities, including their 
sport. If student-athletes are deemed to be employees under the 
National Labor Relations Act, could grade point averages or 
course credit requirements become subjects of collective 
bargaining?
    Mr. Nash. Thank you, Chairman Allen. We do not know the 
answer to that and nor do the advocates of converting student-
athletes to employees and attempting to have collective 
bargaining. It is certainly conceivable that the academic rules 
that apply to student-athletes and how they are enforced, and 
other rules, other rules related to their education, and the 
academic environment would be subject to bargaining.
    Those are things that are just simply not present in the 
professional sports leagues.
    Chairman Allen. OK. Could this unionization undermine 
academic standards? In other words, the young people would 
prioritize, you know, their work responsibilities over actually 
getting an education when less than 2 percent of these young 
people go on to play in professional sports.
    Mr. Nash. I think the reality of that is probably obvious, 
right? I think almost certainly if we are talking about what is 
essentially making the student-athletes on these sports as 
professionals, that is going to be the focus, not academics.
    Chairman Allen. Right. Thank you. Ms. McWilliams Parker, 
fewer than 2 percent of NCAA student-athletes turn professional 
in their respective sports, as I mentioned earlier. What impact 
would employee status have on ensuring these college athletes 
can continue to focus first and foremost on being students, and 
on their academic success to make sure that they have 
successful careers after college?
    Ms. McWilliams Parker. Look, this conversation about--
particularly for our HBCUs and our smaller institutions. I mean 
I am highly concerned about employment because the fact of the 
matter our institutions were built in this country to give us 
an education.
    Athletics is an ancillary opportunity to allow our students 
to engage way beyond just getting their degree. Making them 
employees, or changing that status, it really changes the 
opportunities that we get to create at our institutions in our 
smaller schools, being able to give them the resources that 
they need for academic support, for travel, for uniforms, all 
those things that are important and necessary, especially for 
students that are first generational students.
    I hope we never lose the focus on why education was 
established in this country in the first place. Athletics has 
just been the benefit that we all have. It is a privilege to be 
able to be a college student-athlete, and I hope we do not take 
that away from them.
    Chairman Allen. Yes. Many young people have been able to 
get their education, and also participate in their sport of 
choice on the field, and then go on to very successful careers. 
Whatever we do as Members of Congress, we want to keep that as 
the first priority, and I think that is behind the scenes here. 
We are putting other things first, like you know, collective 
bargaining, unionization, and employee status, and you know, 
all these other things.
    I think we have got to work to make sure that academics is 
priority one. I would yield then to the Ranking Member for your 
questions. OK. Ms. McBath, I am sorry, Ms. McBath, I recognize 
you for 5 minutes for questioning.
    Mrs. McBath. Thank you, Chair and Ranking Member 
DeSaulnier, for hosting this year, and to our witnesses that 
are here with us this morning. Thank you so much for taking the 
time to testify.
    College athletics have such an important place in our 
education system and American society. They represent more than 
just a sports team. They carry the legacy of a town, an 
institution, and the past players' dreams and accomplishments. 
These things are incredibly meaningful, and we need to be sure 
that nothing that we do here in Congress will further 
complicate things for folks back home or put these 
opportunities further out of reach for students and their 
families.
    Student-athletes must be treated with the dignity and the 
respect that they deserve. They must be fairly compensated for 
their efforts while ensuring that schools both large and both 
small can continue to provide the high-quality education and 
athletic opportunities for our students.
    Athletic scholarships have, and continue, to play a very 
important role in making sure that every student who wants to 
better themselves through higher education has an opportunity 
to do so without going into a lifetime of debt, regardless of 
how much money their parents make, or whether anyone in their 
family has ever been to college before. They are directly 
responsible for helping people lift themselves up from lower 
income levels and into a better quality of life, sometimes 
breaking generational cycles of poverty.
    While most student-athletes may not go on to play 
professional sports, all of them will be more likely able to 
finish their degree and have the skills that are necessary to 
provide a decent life for themselves after they graduate. They 
are true engines of social mobility, and it would be 
devastating to students, families, and athletic programs if 
athletes had to worry about being taxed on those very 
scholarships. That exact proposal is unfortunately being 
floated by our House Republicans.
    This memo, circulated by the majority, which I would like 
to submit digitally for the record, outlines the potential ways 
that Republicans want to raise revenue this Congress, and you 
can see that this proposal to make all scholarships income-
taxable--this is right here, written out on page 11.
    This proposal would impose a new tax on students and 
families, and force students and athletic recruits with the 
lowest incomes to reconsider whether or not they can afford to 
accept a scholarship, because of the new tax burden that would 
come with it. Student-athletes should be focused on success on 
the field and in the classroom, not on whether they will have 
to pay a new tax on the scholarships that they have earned.
    Chairman Allen. Without objection.
    [The information of Mrs. McBath follows:]

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    Mrs. McBath. Ms. McWilliams Parker, can you talk about the 
negative impact that taxing scholarship opportunities would 
have on student-athletes if this proposal by my House 
Republican colleagues to tax all scholarships were to become 
law?
    Ms. McWilliams Parker. Thank you, Ms. McBath, for that 
question. I was a walk-on student-athlete at Hampton 
University. My parents had to pay for me to go to college, and 
I depended on the package to be a student-athlete that year. I 
earned a scholarship thereafter, and I think about that 
question. If we had to tax that scholarship, that is an extra 
burden on my family, one that they could not afford. They could 
not afford for me to go to Hampton, so the fact of the matter 
of being able to get a scholarship and able to get the 
resources that I had on campus was extremely important.
    We are smaller institutions. We are Division II. All of our 
student-athlete and scholarship packages in our division--so 
when you talk about exposure, and what we are seeing for 
football and basketball, that is not the reality of our 
students and our first generational students at our 
institutions. There is a need--they need the support. They need 
the Pell Grants. They need the financial aid. That is part of 
their scholarship package at our Division II schools, and in 
Division I, I would imagine that they depend on some of that 
scholarship money as well, so taxing it is not helping us at 
all.
    Mrs. McBath. Thank you for that. I, too, come from Virginia 
State University. I graduated there--I am not going to say 
when--but that is also a Division II school as well, and so I 
have spoken with our president there several times, and I 
understand unequivocally how devastating it would be if we were 
to tax these scholarships. In the State of Georgia too, we have 
scholarships that are being taxed as well, so thank you for 
your testimony.
    Mr. Onder [presiding]. The gentlelady yields back. The 
Chair recognizes Mr. Baumgartner of Washington for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Baumgartner. Well, thank you Mr. Chair, and I very much 
appreciate the distinguished panel and this hearing being held. 
Trying to restore college sports is one of the reasons I came 
to Congress in the interest of--it is very interesting to me.
    I certainly do not believe that college athletes are 
employees, but I also think many of the aspects of collective 
bargaining should be brought to--the results of collective 
bargaining should be brought to the collegiate athlete system. 
College athletics are highly subsidized public goods, and I 
think they should be regulated as such.
    What our goal should be is we have more money in the system 
now, but we have less athletic opportunities than ever before. 
What our underlying principle should be is to create a new 
opportunity, both for the benefit of the student-athletes, but 
in this day and age as American society becomes more political 
and more partisan, there is an important piece of social 
cohesion and camaraderie and societal benefit that just comes 
from everything that we love about college athletics.
    I think it needs to be restored. Personally, I think the 
NCAA is a defunct and derelict institution. I do not think it 
can be fixed. I think there needs to be a new institution put 
under Presidential control and authorized by Congress for these 
public goods.
    I think there has to be a system of fairness and 
competitive balance across the system, both the athletes and 
the schools, and if all the money goes into SEC Football and 
Big Ten Football, and a little bit to basketball, then the 
Olympic sport athletes are going to be the ones that are going 
to suffer. If we can treat the system equally amongst all 
sports and all athletes, I think we will get the solution that 
is in the best public interest.
    I believe that coaches' salaries need to be capped at ten 
times the total cost of the average student going to college. 
Again, this is not free market unfettered capitalism, this is a 
highly subsidized public good. There is not a lot of societal 
benefit of a football coach making over 10 million dollars a 
year.
    What you want is competitive balance. All of us that 
enjoyed college football, and I grew up watching Power Five 
Football, it was just as much fun for the fans and the students 
when the coaches were making $200,000 or $500,000 a year as 
when they are making 10 million dollars.
    It is this unfettered arms race and this nonsense like 
having slides, and these ridiculous whirlpool baths, and these 
special chairs in all the locker rooms so they can entice 
recruits. There is no benefit to you guys as athletes with 
that. Then finally, the idea that we would have 
transcontinental conferences where student-athletes are--a 
volleyball team is going from Eugene, Oregon to Rutgers in New 
Jersey mid-week, that is insane.
    That is not what the public wants to pay for. Congress has 
all the tools to put this back together. You know, I believe 
that we should put NIL into a pool and share equally amongst 
all athletes. I think we should pool TV revenue for all sports, 
so that your HBCUs are benefiting, and we can create so many 
opportunities for the sons and daughters of American taxpayers 
and restore the system.
    You know, to my question, Ms. Wynne, do you believe, you 
know, the future young ladies like yourselves playing softball 
right now, I mean what needs to happen so that there would be 
more opportunities for young ladies like yourself and not less, 
and do you worry when you watch all the money going into 
football and men's basketball, that there is going to be less 
opportunities for young ladies like yourself?
    Ms. Wynne. Thank you for the question. I do worry about the 
future of my own sport. I worry about the future of all female 
sports in this conversation. I dreamed as a little kid that I 
would get to play at the World Series, and fortunately enough I 
went to two, and I think that every young softball player now 
should continue to have that dream and not have to worry that 
those opportunities will not be created for them or still there 
for them.
    I cannot give you the best solution in my opinion for this, 
just because I am here to talk about how I was--my experience 
as a student-athlete, but I do think that there needs to be a 
balance.
    Mr. Baumgartner. Well, you know, I hope we have a unique 
opportunity, I think in a bipartisan fashion, you know, with 
this President. Again, these are public goods. If we regulate 
them in a public manner, highly sized public goods. We realize 
that if we could have a--and it rises, I believe, to the 
importance of a Presidential appointee, and then authorized by 
Congress.
    We can get the NCAA out of all this business, put the 
proper role with Congress authorizing these things and have 
more money. Again, we have more money in the system, and less 
opportunities than ever before. If Congress takes action we can 
have more opportunities for our athletes, and maintain the 
competitive balance across the system, and I yield back, thank 
you.
    Mr. Walberg [presiding]. I thank the gentleman. I now 
recognize the gentlelady from Pennsylvania, Representative Lee.
    Ms. Lee. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will say that I never 
thought that I would hear a Republican colleague call for 
socialism and redistribution of wealth and resources, but I am 
excited to hear that such proposals do exist on the other side.
    I just want to say that if you have been watching college 
basketball's March Madness tournament like I have been for the 
last few weeks, then it should already be clear why college 
athletes deserve the right to organize and bargain 
collectively. In case you have not been paying attention, I 
would like to take just a moment to break some of it down.
    March Madness packed 67 men's and 63 women's basketball 
games into an action-packed 21 days. This year for the second 
year in a row, this college basketball tournament generated 
around a billion dollars in revenue for the NCAA. With such 
high revenue, you might assume that players get a nice cut of 
that action, but your assumption would of course be wrong.
    While the schools behind successful women's basketball and 
men's basketball, or excuse me, women's basketball programs are 
splitting $15 million in prize money, and the schools of the 
successful men's team will share around $216 million, their 
triumphant college athletes will walk away completely empty-
handed.
    Beyond prize money, many schools will make millions of 
dollars off of these young people's backs. Last year the Power 
Five Conference generated over $3.5 billion in revenue. You 
heard that, a billion with a B. While the NCAA and athletic 
conferences raked in billions, the outlook for the college 
athletes who made them their money is grim.
    In a 2019 survey, almost 25 percent of Division I athletes 
reported experiencing food insecurity in the last month, and 
nearly 14 percent were homeless over the last year. A study 
published by Idaho State University in 2022 found that more 
than half of the Division I student-athletes surveyed reported 
eating less often than they felt they should because there was 
not access to enough food. I request unanimous consent to enter 
into the record an article about Wisconsin Public Radio titled 
``Survey: Nearly a Quarter of Division I Athletes Face Food 
Insecurity.''
    Mr. Walberg. Without objection, it will be entered.
    [The information of Ms. Lee follows:]
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    Ms. Lee. Thank you. Mr. Huma, can you speak about the 
financial strain that far too many athletes face?
    Mr. Huma. You know it is funny, this organization, my 
organization started out as a student group at UCLA when I was 
playing football. I formed the group after my teammate was 
suspended because groceries were left on his doorstep when he 
was broke and hungry. Meanwhile, they were selling his jersey 
in the store. They said it was an NIL violation. You could not 
have any benefit at all outside of what a regular student would 
have received. This entire movement, much of it, at least my 
part and my organization's part, stemmed from food and 
groceries.
    You may have assumed that I played receiver or DB back in 
the day; I was a linebacker, and I needed to eat a lot. I was 
an undersized linebacker. I went from eating five, six meals a 
day at home to three meals a day in a meal cart at UCLA. I 
immediately lost within a month, a month and a half, lost ten 
pounds. You know, I am trying to hit 300 pounders at 210 
pounds. It was tough.
    Fast-forward to the surveys you are talking about. 
Unfortunately, much of this has not changed. You know, we did a 
study several years ago on what a full scholarship, you know, 
the room and board included, what that would provide an athlete 
to live off of, and found that 80 percent of athletes would be 
living below the Federal poverty line on those scholarships.
    In the backdrop, all the numbers you mentioned, all the 
revenue that these athletes are generating, obviously you talk 
about the motivations and people wanting to find some way to 
change the system, whether it be collective bargaining or 
employee status, all options need to be on the table to make 
sure that athletes are treated fairly.
    Ms. Lee. Thank you so much. Despite the incredible 
financial hardship experienced by many Division I athletes, 
NCAA has long argued that the system is fair because they are 
student-athletes and often get the value of educational 
scholarships at their institutions, so the free housing that we 
talked about, the free meal plan.
    However, Mr. Huma, I am not sure if most Americans realize 
that college athletes like Division I football, basketball, and 
volleyball players are managing the equivalent of a full-time 
job on top of their academics. While the public only sees them 
for a couple hours on television, athletes are putting in 
countless hours throughout the week. Very quickly, could you 
just describe what a typical schedule of a D1 athlete would 
look like?
    Mr. Huma. Well, first of all, it is year-round, year-round. 
You see them during the season on game day, maybe on TV, but it 
is year-round workouts, early morning rises, you finish late. 
The Pac-12 did a survey of their athletes, and the average 
athlete across all sports reported spending 50 hours a week on 
their sport alone. Yes, a full-time job, absolutely.
    Ms. Lee. Then a full-time student as well?
    Mr. Huma. Correct.
    Ms. Lee. Thank you. Based on the schedule you described, is 
it realistic to think that most D1 athletes can equally balance 
school and athletics while in session?
    Mr. Huma. No. No. I mean athletics takes priorities, and in 
terms of degree completion, which is one of the goals for us to 
improve, they need more time to graduate on the back end. They 
need less time--less responsibilities put on their shoulders 
while they are athletes. You know, without that, you are going 
to continue to have lower graduation rates than you otherwise 
would.
    Ms. Lee. Thank you, Mr. Huma. As many of my colleagues have 
pointed out, a one-size-fits-all regulatory approach may prove 
difficult, given the diverse portfolio of sports, divisions, 
and athletic conferences the NCAA represents, but giving these 
young people the right to bargain for better wages and hours 
and work conditions is not that difficult. It is long past time 
that we cut the games and start calling out this billion-dollar 
business for what it is: student-athlete exploitation. I thank 
you all so much for your testimony, and for being with us 
today, and I yield back.
    Mr. Walberg. I thank the gentlelady. Now, I recognize 
myself for 5 minutes of questions. I am glad the Subcommittee 
is holding this hearing to discuss the future of college 
athletics. I do not see the future as bright if we do not get 
some control and understanding what athletics are for. As a 
former athlete myself, not at the highest level, but the impact 
in my life was very positive, and athletics encouraged my 
academics, which was the highest priority.
    Ms. Wynne, I appreciated your testimony, that really is the 
essence of athletics and scholarship. Before I ask questions to 
our witnesses, I did want to bring up one college sports 
related issue that I have heard a lot about from my 
constituents. Division 1 and 2 college athletes who are awarded 
scholarships at our universities are increasingly coming from 
other countries.
    According to NCAA data, international student-athlete 
participation has increased by 145 percent since 2001. One 
example is Division 1 men's and women's tennis, where foreign 
athletes make up over 60 percent of overall participants. In 
men's and women's ice hockey, they make up over a third. Sadly, 
college sports has become big business, and there is an 
increasing pressure to recruit foreign athletes to make money 
and win games.
    Unfortunately, these scholarship opportunities have come at 
the expense of American born student-athletes. This is 
additionally troublesome because in the United States college 
athletics partially serve as America's Olympic development 
program.
    In the 2024 Paris Olympics, 65 percent of the U.S. Olympic 
team were current, former, or incoming NCAA student-athletes. 
The increasing number of foreign athletes in college sports 
jeopardizes opportunities for American athletes, and the global 
competitiveness of our athletic programs.
    Having said that, Mr. Nash, proponents of classifying 
student-athletes as employees have cited the substantial amount 
of revenue that certain college sports programs bring in, and 
the potential for revenue sharing with these athletes as 
reasons for employment status.
    What does the law say regarding whether revenue generation 
is a factor in determining employment status?
    Mr. Nash. Thank you. The law has been very clear that the 
amount of revenue that an organization receives is not a factor 
in determining whether someone is or is not an employee. 
Otherwise, if it was, businesses that lose money could claim 
that they should not have to pay their employees. What matters, 
and the Supreme Court has made this clear many times, is 
whether someone meets the test or the definition of a common 
law employee.
    Student-athletes for decades have been recognized as not 
meeting that test. The fact that revenue has increased in 
sports like football or basketball should not be a basis for 
changing that law.
    Mr. Walberg. Appreciate that. Ms. McWilliams Parker, in 
your written testimony you State that reclassifying student-
athletes as employees would place an even greater strain on 
already strapped athletic department budgets. What are some of 
the measures that athletic departments may have to take in 
response to an employment model?
    Ms. McWilliams Parker. For our member institutions, and I 
would just speak for my colleagues as HBCUs, I mean our 
conversation is will we be able to sustain sports? Will we be 
able to continue to give scholarships? Will we have to reduce 
that? I think there is a high concern that we are already 
operating in deficit, so all this money in revenue we are 
hearing about, that is not funneling to smaller division 
schools--Division 2 schools.
    All the gate receipts that you see, we are all running 
deficits, and there would be a concern that we would not be 
able to keep up. Eliminating sports, and as we know, sometimes 
the Olympics sports and women's sports go first. That would be 
tragic to see when that opportunity for myself and Ms. Wynne, 
those are the concerns that we have.
    We cannot keep up with the masses of what you all are 
talking about. We just want to give these students an 
opportunity like I had, to play their sport, and to be able to 
get their college degree, and to represent like Ms. McBath is 
today and myself.
    Mr. Walberg. As a student-athlete, what did you undertake 
athletics with the purpose of being a student?
    Ms. McWilliams Parker. As I heard a student say the other 
day, and as I would say, sports saved my life. It gave me an 
opportunity that nothing else did. I could have done a lot of 
different things, but it was the pathway for my family, for me 
to get a college degree, and to be able to make impact, and to 
be prepared to be a commissioner today.
    I am no different than any of my other colleagues, I just 
have a smaller representation of what you all see on a broader 
side of what you watched in March Madness. The opportunity to 
play a sport, and to have teammates, and to lead and to guide, 
and to go through that strenuous work every single day, has 
been necessary. Thank you.
    Mr. Walberg. Thank you. My time has expired, but I wanted 
to hear that. You wanted to be a student-athlete, but a student 
first.
    Ms. McWilliams Parker. Yes.
    Mr. Walberg. Thank you.
    Ms. McWilliams Parker. Thank you.
    Mr. Walberg. Now, I recognize Ranking Member Bobby Scott 
from Virginia.
    Mr. Scott. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Ms. McWilliams Parker, 
you mentioned the CIAA in terms of revenue. Do the teams make a 
lot of money for the schools?
    Ms. McWilliams Parker. No.
    Mr. Scott. Is that typical for D2 and D3 schools?
    Ms. McWilliams Parker. Very typical.
    Mr. Scott. Do you pay your coaches millions of dollars a 
year?
    Ms. McWilliams Parker. Absolutely not.
    Mr. Scott. OK. Mr. Huma, you mentioned the schedule for a 
typical athlete. After college, or after their eligibility 
ends, what happens to those students?
    Mr. Huma. Well, it depends. Some graduate, some do not. You 
know, with the--you know, the reality is that universities 
recruit these athletes, some of them are less prepared 
academically than regular students, that is just a fact. Those 
universities still have a responsibility to create a realistic 
pathway for them to graduate. Unfortunately, many of them do 
not.
    You have increased time demands when it comes with 
athletics put on the shoulders of students who are less 
prepared. Oftentimes you get poor graduation rates. Many of 
these athletes that generate all this money in Division I, they 
do not graduate. Although there are a lot of verbal promises, 
there is no teeth for schools to actually allow them to 
complete their degree, and many athletes do not have the 
opportunity, so after that, do not really know, but you know, 
that is kind of the scenario.
    Mr. Scott. If some go into professional sports, how many 
turn pro?
    Mr. Huma. Less than 2 percent.
    Mr. Scott. The other 98 percent?
    Mr. Huma. The other 98 percent, they pour all their heart 
and soul into generating this money, but not all of them 
graduate.
    Mr. Scott. Is it possible to be an employee under the 
National Labor Relations Act and not under the Fair Labor 
Standards Act where you could have a voice as a union, but not 
have the burden on the school for minimum wage, overtime, and 
other things?
    Mr. Huma. It is possible. Every school would have--every 
team would have its own test. You know, just because, let us 
say Dartmouth or USC athletes, football or basketball players, 
are recognized as employees, it does not automatically mean 
anyone on Division II, or other Division I teams or sports 
would be recognized as employees. They would have to--first of 
all, the athletes would have to want to join a union. If one 
team had a union, it does not automatically place everyone else 
in a union.
    Second, if a school did have a team where there was a 
union, say Division II even, the school does not have to enter 
into a collective bargaining agreement if it feels like it 
cannot afford what the athletes are asking for. It is an 
agreement. Two sides have to agree.
    I will also point out that none of the employment issues 
involving the NLRB affect Division II. There are no campaigns. 
Division II really has not been in the, I guess, cross hairs if 
you can say, but if they were at that point--the point is that 
universities do not have to agree to do anything they cannot 
afford.
    Again, athletes have--if a softball player at Oklahoma 
State does not want to be in a union, they do not have to be. 
For those that feel like there is a need, whether it be health 
and safety, whether it be compensation issues, they should have 
the option to do that, if by law--if the law recognizes them as 
employees.
    Mr. Scott. They can bargain for workers' compensation 
coverage for injuries. What happens now if an athlete is 
injured?
    Mr. Huma. Right now, it depends on the school. The school--
it is always optional. You know, in Division I they passed what 
is another unenforced standard. You know, there are safety 
guidelines that are not enforced. Division I recently said any 
Division I school is supposed to be able to pay for the medical 
expenses while the athletes are there. There is nothing 
enforceable about that.
    We have had athletes for years come to us with out-of-
pocket medical expenses their schools do not cover. Some of 
those bills go into collections, and they do not find out until 
they are trying to buy their first car. It is a very deceptive 
industry, but a collective bargaining agreement is a legally 
binding agreement. If a school says, ``We're going to pay for 
your medical'', then it is iron clad.
    Mr. Scott. What happens to disability?
    Mr. Huma. That is really--you know, there is nothing there 
for the athletes unless they are catastrophically injured, 
which means $90,000 in deductible payments, which very few 
injuries reach. There have been studies finding that about 50 
percent of Division I athletes across all sports suffer chronic 
injuries. Most of those athletes have no assistance when they 
are done.
    Mr. Scott. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. Walberg. I thank the gentleman. I recognize the 
gentlelady from North Carolina, Ms. Foxx.
    Mrs. Foxx. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I thank our witnesses 
for being here today. Mr. Nash, in profit generating college 
sports, we already see a trend of student-athletes staying long 
past the typical 4 years of eligibility. This is for some 
athletes the maximum amount of time in college athletics to 
profit as long as possible, as if it were a full-time job.
    How might this problem be exacerbated if all student-
athletes are considered employees?
    Mr. Nash. Thank you for the question. I think there would 
be a real danger in that problem being exacerbated, because 
there would--one subject of collective bargaining, if it were 
to be allowed, would be to remove the eligibility rules, and 
demand that student-athletes be able to participate as long as 
they like. It would be a potential subject to bargaining.
    Mrs. Foxx. What impact do you believe this trend has on the 
overall educational mission of a university?
    Mr. Nash. Well, I think there is no question that the 
movement to reclassify student-athletes as employees has a 
significant potential to interfere with education. We have seen 
that in the cases that have been brought before the NLRB. We 
saw that in the USC case where the general counsel of the NLRB 
challenged the USC student-athlete handbook, which provided the 
students with guidance on how to deal with interviews and 
social media, and encouraged them to speak positively about 
their teammates, and be careful about not posting things that 
could follow you for life.
    According to the NLRB in the complaint that they issued 
against USC, that violated the labor laws if they were in 
place.
    Mrs. Foxx. Thank you. Ms. Wynne, some have noted that the 
trend of professional student-athletes could lead to fewer 
roster responses for freshman or transfers. As a former 
student-athlete, does this trend concern you?
    Ms. Wynne. I think that this trend does concern me, and it 
concerns my counterparts, other student-athletes because we are 
not in favor of cutting athletic opportunity.
    Mrs. Foxx. In your written testimony, you mentioned the 
importance of academics during your time as a student-athlete 
at Oklahoma State University. Can you discuss your academic 
experience as a student-athlete, and as part of that, how might 
the importance of academics change if student-athletes are 
deemed to be employees?
    Ms. Wynne. My academic experience was certainly a high 
point of my career. I studied strategic communications in 
undergrad, and during that time my coach also was very 
supportive of joining extracurricular clubs as well, so I had 
the ability to join an advertising club in my college.
    My coaches took academics very seriously. When we were 
playing on the road we had study halls on the road with each 
other, and even our academic advisers would travel with us to 
ensure that we had the most adequate resources at all times. 
They demonstrated a very healthy balance between my athletic 
experience and my academic experience.
    Mrs. Foxx. Well, that is wonderful to hear that there was 
that emphasis on your academics. Ms. McWilliams Parker, 
academic achievement and professional development have been the 
primary purpose of post-secondary education in the student-
athlete experience.
    What educational and other benefits do student-athletes 
gain from their athletic experience, and how does this 
experience help them in their future careers?
    Ms. McWilliams Parker. I would say that the whole team 
concept of being on a team, that experience by itself, is 
pretty powerful. You learn leadership. You learn perseverance. 
I mean even in these discussions of injury and being hungry, 
and all those other things. I mean there is something about 
athletics that defines who we are as a country, and as we are 
as a community, and to provide access and opportunity for our 
student-athletes, whether it is careers.
    I mean part of my institution helped me get a post-graduate 
scholarship to go get my degree at Temple. I have never had to 
pay for college, except that 1 year that I talked about as a 
walk on. Careers, as we have partners and sponsors, I mean we 
have pathways to help them get internships, and those types of 
opportunities.
    There are just so many benefits of being a student-athlete, 
not just on the court, but also off the court, and as leaders 
and administrators we have that responsibility to support that 
effort.
    Mrs. Foxx. Well, thank you very much. My grandson was on 
the track team. He was a thrower in high school and in college. 
I think he learned a lot about teamwork, and he also told--said 
the coach told him if you show up on time, you are late, show 
up 10 minutes early, that is a wonderful characteristic to have 
in our country. Thank you very much, and I appreciate it.
    Mr. Walberg. I thank the gentlelady, and I recognize the 
Ranking Member, Representative DeSaulnier from California.
    Mr. DeSaulnier. Thank you. I want to thank all the 
witnesses again. Terrific testimony. Mr. Huma, a lot has 
changed other than you have gone from a linebacker's build and 
five meals a day to three and a DB, but could you talk a little 
bit about--I mean, in our--in sports there has been lots of 
arguments for decades about what is an amateur, whether it is 
the Olympics or college athletics, and what is a professional.
    What has changed, from your perspective, to make this a 
more acute need to define the boundaries of professionalism and 
amateurism?
    Mr. Huma. Thanks for that question. I think, you know, 
today the high revenue college sports are almost 
indistinguishable from the pros. Obviously, college is 
involved, but besides that, again, it was mentioned just 
yesterday, there was a hearing. Because there was legal 
pressure again, one of the avenues to fight against this 
injustice, the NCAA Power Five Conferences are being pushed to 
finally share revenue with athletes.
    As we speak right now there are recruits, 16, 17 years old 
being signed by schools right now to professional agreements, 
so--and that is a good thing. That is a great development, and 
that is now something even the schools are celebrating, they 
kind of have to because they have no choice, but hey, we are 
there. That was because athlete's rights were not taken away by 
Congress.
    I will point out as an athlete, all the athletes we work 
with, there are very special things about college sports, you 
know, but amateurism has nothing to do with it. It has nothing 
to do with it. You can learn leadership if you are an employee. 
You know, you can learn all the different things we have talked 
about today: teamwork, camaraderie. That does not go away 
because someone has rights, because someone is an employee. You 
know, the ability to play at a high level and pursue a degree, 
that is really what makes college sports special, and I think 
if you dissect what everyone is talking about here, that is 
what is there.
    The employee status issue does not negate that. It does not 
take away from being a student. You have students in bookstores 
at all the schools we are talking about. They are employees. 
You have some students on these campuses, they actually have 
the right to form a union, but we are not here talking about 
that. This is about taking away rights from athletes, so that 
they are not empowered to make the changes this industry has 
never wanted to make.
    You know, the first year that we actually announced what we 
were doing, within months, three football players died in off-
season workouts. Since then, there has been death after death 
after death. You can set your watch to it. The very next year I 
testified in Congress, 2002, begging Congress, ``Please do 
something'', and nothing has been done.
    There have been individuals that have talked about it. I 
was really in agreement with much of what Congressman 
Baumgartner said today. Congress, you have the votes, you can 
solve these issues, and this is what I am here pleading for on 
behalf of all the families that have suffered, and the families 
that will suffer if Congress does not act.
    Mr. DeSaulnier. My district is next to the mothership, the 
University of California. When I talk to the people in the 
football program at Berkeley, or my very dear friend who is the 
coach of the rugby team, sort of the rugby program in the 
United States, this challenge does not--to Mr. Baumgarten's 
comments, and Mr. Nash's too, there seems to be an ability to 
fix this. The idea of pooling the revenue, to make sure that 
these minor sports--and that is a misnomer from my perspective, 
having been a lacrosse player many years ago--to get all the 
benefits that you have talked about, so there does--and your 
comments about your agreement, I am in agreement too--but 
beyond that are these questions--and we always sort of 
mythologized the Rudy's of the world--but then underlying, and 
that is not just unique to college athletics; there are the 
issues you mentioned about sexual exploitation and harassment, 
just harassment of people who are in the program anyways. 
Defining that, as opposed to what Ms. McWilliams talked about, 
is dealing with adversity, that is legitimate adversity.
    There it strikes me as sort of the challenge we have here, 
is making this work, but also making sure that some of the 
cultures that we have unfortunately dealt with for too long do 
not get addressed, and the athletes have a chance to defend 
themselves, as an employee would.
    Mr. Huma. Absolutely. I think there is a big difference 
between the challenges that make us stronger as a college 
athlete, you know, dealing with adversity within a normal 
realm, but that adversity should not include sexual assault. 
You know, and UC Berkeley, that was one of--I could have listed 
names, but UC Berkeley, 2014, Ted Agu passed away. The 
university admitted negligence. Now, the trainer that oversaw 
that workout was the same trainer at Central Florida just a few 
years before that oversaw another workout death among similar 
circumstances: sickle cell, which is completely preventable. 
That trainer could be anywhere today, you know.
    That is not the type of adversity that people can walk off. 
That family is devastated. Ted is gone.
    Mr. DeSaulnier. Thank you, I yield back.
    Mr. Walberg. I thank the gentleman. I recognize the 
gentlelady from Michigan, Ms. McClain.
    Mrs. McClain. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you all 
for being here today. Really, what I want to talk about is the 
difference between employment status and non-employment status 
for the athletes. If you could start, and, Ms. Wynne, I will 
start with you, what is the advantage of making student-
athletes employees versus non-employees, or disadvantaged from 
your perspective?
    Ms. Wynne. From my perspective, I think that employment 
status yields more disadvantages than they do advantages 
because the majority of a student-athlete, and I am here 
representing the female student-athletes, and Olympic sports as 
well. I think that employment status will shift the freedom for 
student-athletes to explore academic interests, transfer 
capabilities, or just playing for the love of the game, and 
replace that with legal contracts, performance pressures, 
financial decisions.
    I know myself I signed by NLI at 16 years old, and so I was 
very young, and I started my freshman year as a 17-year-old 
student, so opening those conversations, even to minors, I feel 
like that is a dangerous future in my opinion.
    Mrs. McClain. OK. I mean yesterday in your order to protect 
the balance right, I introduced the Protecting Student Athletes 
Economic Freedom Act, which clarifies that a student-athlete is 
not an employee of a college, conference, or other 
associations. Ms. McWilliams Parker, how would you, or excuse 
me, how would--this is kind of awkward, but un-unionization of 
studentathletes impact the school's ability to support their 
students and academic programs?
    Ms. McWilliams Parker. Yes. Thank you for that question. I 
think about the opportunity to continue to give them 
scholarships, you know, even the cost of the academic support, 
the regular mental health services that we have, the training 
support that is needed, the media support, career development 
success. I mean all of those things are going to be possibly 
compromised because of the costs associated with it from that 
department, athletics department.
    I mean I shared earlier, our departments are already 
operating in a deficit, so the more strain that we put on 
financially to provide those resources on top of additional 
resources, there would be some concern.
    Mrs. McClain. What do you say to the folks that say but we 
have to protect these athletes?
    Ms. McWilliams Parker. I do not know why we do not think we 
are not protecting them already. I work in college athletics. 
My job every day is to protect student-athletes, give them the 
best opportunity to participate in championships, and make sure 
that we have the staffing and the support they need.
    We are talking about different subsets of institutions. We 
have got private, we have got public, we have got larger, we 
have got smaller, we have got bigger resources. We have got 
limited resources. I am in limited resources, and so we need to 
protect those limited resources institutions, by making sure we 
can sustain opportunities for studies like Ms. Wynne, who come 
to some of our schools.
    Mrs. McClain. If I am understanding it correctly, you think 
as a student-athlete, or a former student-athlete, being an 
employee is not a good thing. As an administrator, do you also 
agree with that?
    Ms. McWilliams Parker. Absolutely. I mean we are protecting 
the Olympic sports. We are protecting Title IX, and Title IX is 
not just about women, it is also about our men. We are trying 
to protect the disparity of the playing field. I mean there are 
a lot of implications here on paying student-athletes.
    Mrs. McClain. You actually have some trust in people. You 
have some trust in the athletes. You have some trust in each 
other. You do not need big brothers in essence to come in and 
regulate everything?
    Ms. McWilliams Parker. Despite what everybody says, I am 
part of the NCAA. I am the NCAA. I am one of the administrators 
that sits around the table like you all do to make policies and 
processes and procedures, so that our institutions and student-
athletes can have that experience. Our student-athletes around 
the table, we have leadership around the table, and should we 
be getting better? Absolutely.
    Are we getting better? Absolutely. Are these conversations 
helpful to help us guide to the path of getting better? 
Absolutely.
    Mrs. McClain. Just to be clear, and I am being a little 
sarcastic, which I do not mean to be, but you have the athletes 
who participate, you have the administrators, you mean you 
actually collaborate to find out what the best course of action 
is, and you guys can do that right now?
    Ms. McWilliams Parker. Absolutely. We are doing it.
    Mrs. McClain. That is great. Good for you. I applaud you.
    Ms. McWilliams Parker. Thank you.
    Mrs. McClain. I mean I think we need to get back into 
having a little bit of faith into our people. Thank you. I know 
I am over time, Mr. Chairman. I yield back. Thank you all.
    Mr. Walberg. I thank the gentlelady. Now I recognize the 
gentlelady from Connecticut, Representative Hayes.
    Mrs. Hayes. Thank you and thank you to our witnesses for 
being here today to testify. I apologize for coming in late. I 
am juggling multiple hearings.
    College athletics has become a multi-billion-dollar 
industry with the National Collegiate Athletic Association, or 
the NCAA, bringing in nearly $1.4 billion in revenue in 2024. I 
can tell you that I have absolute faith in college sports, 
being from the basketball championship of the world where our 
UConn women just won a 12th national title. It is the only 
sport we have. Our college athletes is Connecticut--I mean we 
have Connecticut Sun now, but college athletics is Connecticut 
sports, and this is a conversation we have often at home. 
Immediately after that win, one of the things that Coach 
Auriemma spoke about was the disparities for college athletes.
    It is very fitting that we are having this hearing here 
today. For many young people, an athletic scholarship can be a 
pathway out of poverty, but a scholarship alone does not help 
an athlete trying to feed themselves or provide for their 
families back at home.
    These scholarships are typically contingent upon an athlete 
being enrolled as a full-time student and meeting specific 
academic requirements. Across various sports and divisions, 
college athletics report spending between 30--college athletes 
report spending between 30 to 50 hours a week on athletic 
activities despite NCAA caps on the number of hours athletes 
may engage in ``countable athletically related activities.''
    In fact, many athletes report feeling pressured to attend 
so-called voluntary athletic sessions for fear of retaliation, 
or they are worried they may lose their spot on their team or 
incur a broader punishment for their teammates.
    This is an incredible level of control over how a person 
spends their time and fulfills the basic requirements of being 
a member of team. While a large part of the conversation around 
college athletics and collective bargaining centers around 
monetary compensation, a union also provides security for its 
members when facing excessive demands.
    Mr. Huma, could you please explain how union representation 
could help athletes' pressure to invest excessive hours in 
outside activities?
    Mr. Huma. Absolutely. I mean if you look at the pros, they 
have unions, and I think that many people watching today would 
love if their sibling, child, if they were in the pros, and 
they have unions, and they can negotiate how long their time 
demands are on their athletics.
    I think first and foremost, anyone that has concern about 
the over-emphasis of athletics, overcoming academics and 
affecting graduation rates, has to recognize that the athletes, 
if they had a union, and could collectively bargain, could try 
to reduce hours that are required of them.
    Mrs. Hayes. Thank you. There are more than 500,000 NCAA 
college athletes, but fewer than 2 percent of them will go on 
to play sports professionally. The NCAA has pointed this out in 
social media campaigns in recent years. The demands of an 
athletic schedule can often stand in the way of a student 
pursuing internships, career workshops, and other types of 
training that will help them in their post-graduate years.
    Every college athlete should have the flexibility to ensure 
that they can pursue their dreams of playing collegiate sports 
and invest in their futures after college. Unions provide their 
members with a seat at the table and can do the same for 
college athletes. Mr. Huma, what benefits could union 
representation offer so that college athletes can prioritize 
their academics, and post-college goals, while meeting the 
vigor of an athletic schedule?
    Mr. Huma. That is a great question. You know, beyond just 
reducing the time demands, there could be ironclad agreements 
that ensure that their scholarship is not revocable at each 
year. That a coach can't, ``fire you or run you off,'' because 
despite the promises and the rhetoric, that if athletes become 
employees they could suddenly be fired--they are getting fired 
all the time, for years and years. The coach creates a hostile 
work environment, breaks the athlete mentally to the point 
where they want to transfer or quit their sport altogether. 
That could be negotiated; the terms of whether, you know, a 
person could be fired or not, and that is as we have mentioned, 
tied to your educational opportunity.
    Post-eligibility as well. If you need another semester or 
two to graduate because you have been dealing with such high 
athletic demands, that could be negotiated. You know, how about 
an extra couple of years to graduate? Again, not as a verbal 
promise that no one is enforcing, but under an agreement.
    Mrs. Hayes. Thank you. Like I said, from a State like 
Connecticut where college athletes is our sport, they are 
making big money right now in Connecticut off of this 
championship. I yield back, thank you.
    Mr. Onder. The gentlelady yields back. The Chair recognizes 
himself for 5 minutes. You know, I think the question at this 
hearing today is whether NCAA college sports are farm teams, or 
mere farm teams for the pros. In Missouri we have taken a 
position on this issue. In July 2023, Governor Mike Parson 
signed into law legislation clarifying that student-athletes at 
Missouri's colleges and universities are not employees.
    Mr. Nash, as you point out in your written testimony, there 
have been efforts in recent years to reclassify student-
athletes as employees and allow for collective bargaining. 
Supporters of these efforts often cite professional sports 
teams as the model. We have heard that quite a bit today.
    Do you agree with claims that student-athletes are no 
different than professional athletes, and they should be 
treated as such in the eyes of the law, especially Division 1 
sports that generate a lot of revenue?
    Mr. Nash. Thank you. No. I do not. I do not think that 
student-athletes at the college level are remotely equivalent 
to professional athletes for the simple reason professional 
athletes are not required or not admitted as students under 
academic standards at a university.
    Their sole focus is to play their sport. A college athlete, 
and I would defer to Ms. Wynne on this. She is in a better 
position to speak than me, a college athlete has to be admitted 
as a student, has to continue to progress toward a degree, and 
there is a tremendous amount of focus on their education.
    Mr. Onder. Yes. Do you find it ironic that all this 
discussion of employment, and the unionization, it centers 
around Division 1 sports that are profitable, and as you point 
out in two sports, basketball and football. What about--where 
is the solicitousness of the worker's rights and all the other 
sports that are not profitable?
    Mr. Nash. Well, that is a good question, and that is I 
think probably the biggest problem that I see with the effort 
to turn student-athletes into professionals. It just simply 
ignores that the arguments that are being made really are 
focused on just the so-called high revenue sports, and really 
on just a few individual athletes in those, the sort of 
professional free agent kind of model, while ignoring all the 
other sports.
    Mr. Onder. That is something I wanted to address. 
Representative Hayes pointed out, and correct me if this is not 
correct, that the NCAA had revenues in 2024 of 1.4 billion 
dollars. Do you know what percentage of athletic programs are 
profitable? You can express that any way you wish.
    It is my understanding that not even all football or 
basketball programs are profitable to the schools, much less 
lacrosse, cross-country, wrestling and so forth.
    Mr. Nash. I defer to the NCAA and the colleges on that.
    Mr. Onder. Sure.
    Mr. Nash. I think the assumption of your question is 
actually quite correct. One example I can give you is in the 
NLRB case involving the University of Southern California, the 
focus there was on football and basketball.
    Mr. Onder. Right.
    Mr. Nash. The evidence in the case showed that the revenue 
from those sports, not only supported by the more than 20 other 
sports, the athletic department as a whole, according to the 
reports that were provided to the education department, 
operates at a loss.
    The revenue did not even support all of the sports and 
required further assistance--further financial support from the 
university.
    Mr. Onder. Yes. Yes, that is when you see a big number like 
1.4 billion OK, that is revenue, what is expense?
    Mr. Nash. Right.
    Mr. Onder. Then to the extent revenue exceeds expense in 
the nonprofit world we do not call that profit, but what is 
that revenue used for in other things, like supporting the 
sports that are not profitable. Mr. Huma, you cited deaths in 
college athletics in training and so on, cause of death 
generally cardiac issues, heat stroke? What is it generally?
    Mr. Huma. Cardiac, heat illness, sickle-cell related, even 
asthma, things that--the deaths we are concerned with are 
preventable.
    Mr. Onder. Yes.
    Mr. Huma. You know, and sometimes, you know, there is risk 
inherent in sports, but preventable deaths are still around 
unfortunately.
    Mr. Onder. Yes. I am a medical doctor, and I actually have 
a son with congenital heart disease, and his congenital heart 
disease was very obvious at birth, but there are congenital 
heart diseases, some of which can be tested by--discovered by 
pre-screening and precautions taken, and probably in most cases 
not participating in athletics at that level among other 
things.
    Are you aware, is there screening right now at the NCAA 
level for these undiagnosed congenital heart problems?
    Mr. Huma. No, but what is interesting is that now they are 
screening for sickle cells for instance, right?
    Mr. Onder. Right.
    Mr. Huma. That has given the athletic programs the ability 
to say ``Hey, this athlete has sickle cell, let's make sure we 
follow the protocols in workouts.'' With Bucknell University, 
Calvin Dickey Jr. had that, their athletics program knew, but 
they did not follow the protocols, and he passed away.
    Mr. Onder. Yes, thank you. My time has expired. I yield 
back. The Chair next recognizes the Ranking Member for a 
closing statement.
    Mr. DeSaulnier. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to thank 
you, and all of us, for being here. I really want to thank the 
witnesses again. One, just, observation in the last 
conversation is one of the threats to minor league sports is 
these subsidies that come from those big sports. There are some 
instances where there is more pressure to get rid of minor 
sports, so that that money stays in those big programs. If we 
want to keep those minor sports going, we have to have an 
honest conversation about all of this. I am encouraged by some 
of the conversation today, that there is an acknowledgement to 
keep your experiences, my experiences, healthy by making sure 
that this revenue continues to be generated in such a way that 
it continues to support this larger, really beneficial culture 
in college sports for all the college athletes.
    As I said earlier, our priority in this Committee must 
always be the health and well-being of the college athletes. 
That benefits everyone, but particularly they should be the 
focus of our attention. It is our responsibility to stand with 
these students as they stand for themselves.
    College sports have changed since the days of amateurism 
and leather helmets, as many athletes suffer exploitation and 
abuse. It should come as no shock that many are attempting to 
exercise their right to defend themselves and organize for 
their own protection.
    College athletes are not a monolith, as we have talked 
about today, and should not be treated as such. It would be 
inappropriate to ban all athletes from being classified as 
employees, just as it would be inappropriate to call every 
single college athlete an employee.
    College athletics exist on spectrum, and employment issues 
should be addressed according to existing labor laws. As we 
speak, the current administration is attacking higher 
education, and that also creates a vulnerability for the 
college student. While I am grateful for the productive 
discussion on college athletics, and I see a potential for us 
on this Committee, and in the other Committees of jurisdiction, 
to come up with a meaningful solution, Mr. Chairman, let us not 
forget that one of the biggest problems and threats facing 
public education today is not college athletes unionizing, it 
is the policies and priorities of the current administration. 
Thank you and I yield back.
    Chairman Allen. I thank the Ranking Member, and now I would 
like to make my closing statement. First, you know, if there is 
any polling available from NCAA from student-athletes on their 
interest in joining or not joining a union, I would like for 
the Committee to do the research on that, and let us get that 
polling, so we can kind of, you know, hear from the athletes 
themselves on what they are thinking about this.
    Then certainly, on your comment about the Department of 
Education, we are spending more money than any other nation and 
we are losing ground rapidly in education, so we have got a lot 
of work to do on this Committee, and I agree with you, the 
Ranking Member, that we have got to correct that process.
    We learned a lot today, and in House about student-
athletes, and how they would be negatively affected if they 
were classified as employees. Obviously, we do not want our 
athletes in danger, and we need to speak to that as well. 
Employee status would harm these athletes by restricting their 
freedoms, altering their significant benefits they currently 
enjoy.
    Undermining non-revenue generating sports, triggering 
unintended consequences like taxing, scholarships, and taking 
the focus off education, which I said earlier, should be our 
No. 1 priority, which is central, and really, the whole reason 
for the student-athlete experience.
    I mean it was college first, then athletics I believe, is 
the way it all got started. In response, our Committee 
colleague from Michigan, Representative Lisa McClain introduced 
the Protecting Students Athletes Economic Freedom Act, which 
would shield student-athletes from misguided efforts to deem 
them to be employees.
    It is my hope that my Committee colleagues will join this 
effort and continue to work together with our colleagues on the 
other Committees, to find solutions that ensure the viability 
of college sports for future generations. I would like to thank 
our witnesses again for taking the time to testify before the 
Subcommittee today, and without objection, there being no 
further business, the Subcommittee stands adjourned. Thank you.
    [Whereupon, at 11:44 a.m., the Subcommittee on Health, 
Employment, Labor and Pensions was adjourned.]

    [Additional submissions from Chairman Walberg follows:]
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