[House Hearing, 119 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
PATH OF PURPOSE: RESTORING
THE VA VR&E PROGRAM TO
EFFECTIVELY SERVE VETERANS
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HEARING
BEFORE THE
SUBCOMMITTEE ON ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY
OF THE
COMMITTEE ON VETERANS' AFFAIRS
U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
__________
WEDNESDAY, JULY 16, 2025
__________
Serial No. 119-31
__________
Printed for the use of the Committee on Veterans' Affairs
[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Available via http://govinfo.gov
__________
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
61-358 WASHINGTON : 2025
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COMMITTEE ON VETERANS' AFFAIRS
MIKE BOST, Illinois, Chairman
AUMUA AMATA COLEMAN RADEWAGEN, MARK TAKANO, California, Ranking
American Samoa, Vice-Chairwoman Member
JACK BERGMAN, Michigan JULIA BROWNLEY, California
NANCY MACE, South Carolina CHRIS PAPPAS, New Hampshire
MARIANNETTE MILLER-MEEKS, Iowa SHEILA CHERFILUS-MCCORMICK,
GREGORY F. MURPHY, North Carolina Florida
DERRICK VAN ORDEN, Wisconsin MORGAN MCGARVEY, Kentucky
MORGAN LUTTRELL, Texas DELIA RAMIREZ, Illinois
JUAN CISCOMANI, Arizona NIKKI BUDZINSKI, Illinois
KEITH SELF, Texas TIMOTHY M. KENNEDY, New York
JEN KIGGANS, Virginia MAXINE DEXTER, Oregon
ABE HAMADEH, Arizona HERB CONAWAY, New Jersey
KIMBERLYN KING-HINDS, Northern KELLY MORRISON, Minnesota
Mariana Islands
TOM BARRETT, Michigan
Jon Clark, Staff Director
Matt Reel, Democratic Staff Director
SUBCOMMITTEE ON ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY
DERRICK VAN ORDEN, Wisconsin, Chairman
JUAN CISCOMANI, Arizona CHRIS PAPPAS, New Hampshire,
ABE HAMADEH, Arizona Ranking Member
KIMBERLYN KING-HINDS, Northern MORGAN MCGARVEY, Kentucky
Mariana Islands DELIA RAMIREZ, Illinois
TOM BARRETT, Michigan TIMOTHY M. KENNEDY, New York
Pursuant to clause 2(e)(4) of Rule XI of the Rules of the House, public
hearing records of the Committee on Veterans' Affairs are also
published in electronic form. The printed hearing record remains the
official version. Because electronic submissions are used to prepare
both printed and electronic versions of the hearing record, the process
of converting between various electronic formats may introduce
unintentional errors or omissions. Such occurrences are inherent in the
current publication process and should diminish as the process is
further refined.
C O N T E N T S
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WEDNESDAY, JULY 16, 2025
Page
OPENING STATEMENTS
The Honorable Derrick Van Orden, Chairman........................ 1
The Honorable Chris Pappas, Ranking Member....................... 3
WITNESSES
Panel I
Ms. Margarita Devlin, Acting Principal Deputy Under Secretary for
Benefits, Veterans Benefits Administration, U.S. Department of
Veterans Affairs............................................... 5
APPENDIX
Prepared Statements Of Witnesses
Ms. Margarita Devlin Prepared Statement.......................... 23
Statements For The Record
U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs, Office of the Inspector
General Prepared Statement..................................... 29
Veterans Education Success Prepared Statement.................... 37
PATH OF PURPOSE: RESTORING
THE VA VR&E PROGRAM TO
EFFECTIVELY SERVE VETERANS
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WEDNESDAY, JULY 16, 2025
Subcommittee on Economic Opportunity,
Committee on Veterans' Affairs,
U.S. House of Representatives,
Washington, DC.
The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:31 p.m., in
room 360, Cannon House Office Building, Hon. Derrick Van Orden
(chairman of the subcommittee) presiding.
Present: Representatives Van Orden, Ciscomani, Barrett,
Pappas, and McGarvey.
OPENING STATEMENT OF DERRICK VAN ORDEN, CHAIRMAN
Mr. Van Orden. The subcommittee will come to order. I want
to thank everyone for being here today to discuss the Veterans
Readiness and Employment Program, or VR&E.
The purpose of this program is to assist veterans and
servicemembers who have service-connected disabilities with on-
the-job training, education, and skills they need in order to
obtain meaningful employment to live full independent lives.
When this program is appropriately administered, VR&E, it is
more than just a benefits program. It is also a vital first
step for disabled veterans to become more financially
independent and give back to their community and achieve their
own American Dream. I used VR&E to go to law school at the age
of 50 and it led me to Congress, so maybe we should cancel this
program. That is a joke. Seriously, this job, right? Yes, he
got it. He is the only guy that got it.
Unfortunately, VR&E has been at a crossroads for several
years and, unfortunately, it has been abused by a lot of folks.
I am very thankful that over this last year our team has been
able to investigate some of these potential fraud, waste, and
abuse cases. It includes site visits to Detroit, Muskogee,
Buffalo, Baltimore, and just last week the folks got back from
San Diego. What they found is truly disturbing.
We are now seeing unprecedented increase in wait times and
an increased burden on counselors with higher caseloads. There
has got to be a better balance of priorities in the program to
make sure that veterans get what they need while also ensuring
that the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) is a
responsible steward of the taxpayers' investment. I found that
this is a responsibility that VA has a profound and constant
inability to perform the oversight function. I am also going to
point the finger this way. We have an oversight responsibility,
you have an oversight responsibility, and I think both sides of
this fence have not been meeting that.
Finally, my staff has also seen some data that veterans
have been in this program for over 20 years. Many veterans are
using more than $250,000 in benefit payments, and one veteran
in Boston spent over $350,000 in 18 months. Another veteran in
Los Angeles has spent $895,000 in 6 years and is still in
rehab-to-employment phase of the program. If anyone is
concerned about funding for veterans, they need to be concerned
about what is going on in this program, also. Cases like this
are a direct result of VA granting entitlement extensions past
the 48-month limit mandated by law for VR&E recipients; well
over 99 percent of the time are not doing their due diligence
on the program.
In fact, the VA Committee last month found out that since
Fiscal Year 2024, 62,355 extensions were approved while just 59
requests for extensions were denied. That is statistically
impossible for that to be a functioning number. It is just
absurd.
I am looking forward to hearing from the VA about the real-
life examples that constitute granting a waiver. On paper,
bureaucrats may just be completing a checking the box exercise
instead of completing a thorough review.
Additionally, we heard numerous concerns about long wait
times. The current wait time for a veteran to be seen by a
counselor in San Diego, Oakland, and Albuquerque is over 100
days. 40 percent of regional offices take over 60 days for a
veteran to meet a counselor for an initial evaluation, above
the VA goal of a 60-day maximum wait time. A month is too long.
Making a veteran put their lives on hold for nearly a year
before even being seen by a counselor is ridiculous and has a
negative impact on not only their lives, but their entire
families.
Finally, we found that 45 percent of participants within
the VR&E program have successfully completed the program and
subsequently re-entered it. That means that nearly half of the
VR&E participants complete a program successfully only to
return to the program. I understand the need for the veteran
whose disability worsens or reenters the program with the goal
of becoming gainfully employed again. However, 45 percent of
individuals using a jobs program more than once is a failure,
and this will not stand on my watch any longer.
We have also heard from VR&E executive director himself
that many veterans are retiring from their jobs and applying
for VR&E to receive a substance allowance to supplement their
income until they are able to receive retirement benefits and
Social Security. In essence, some people are retiring from a
job and then entering this program for a period of time to
carry them into the age when they are eligible for Social
Security. That is not what this program was designed for.
VA knows that there is abuse in this program yet again I
hear--until I hear otherwise, VA is not working to fix the
holes in the system, period. We cannot ignore this because we
cannot let this program fail.
Finally, I recognize VR&E's latest Information Technology
(IT) project of Readiness Employment System, or RES, was
launched as a pilot in 2024, and early reports showed that the
program has been received very well. I know the VA states they
are finally on the right path with the new case management
system. However, I am skeptical as this undertaking will now
span a term of four administrations and we all know how good
the VA is at wasting taxpayers' dollars for IT failures. As a
matter of fact, they have a 0 percent rate of getting IT
projects right.
Ms. Devlin, I got to tell you, I know you just got here. We
met the other day in our office and, as discussed, this is how
I want this hearing to go. This is going to be a post-apartheid
Truth and Reconciliation Commission, meaning, you know, we are
not going to hold you to account. I know you just got here a
month ago and I want to make sure that this is an open kimono
discussion so that we can clearly identify, articulate, and
brainstorm about how to fix these problems. Is that clear?
Ms. Devlin. Yes, got it.
Mr. Van Orden. Okay. With that, I would like to now yield
to my very good friend and ranking member, Mr. Pappas, for his
opening remarks.
OPENING STATEMENT OF CHRIS PAPPAS, RANKING MEMBER
Mr. Pappas. Thank you very much, Chairman Van Orden, for
holding today's hearing on the Veterans Readiness and
Employment Program, otherwise known as VR&E.
We know VR&E is designed to help disabled veterans gain
meaningful employment and independent living after their time
in service. However, this committee is rightfully concerned
about the overall outcomes and effectiveness of the program
based on data about its performance and issues veterans have
raised about response and wait times, among others. I hope to
learn more today about the ways in which we can improve the
program so that service-connected disabled veterans are
receiving the support they need and have earned and ensure that
their transition to civilian life is a successful.
One area that I would like to focus on is the caseload
ratios for counselors, which, since 2018, VA established should
be at 125 veterans per 1 counselor. Since the passage of the
The Sergeant First Class Heath Robinson Honoring our Promise to
Address Comprehensive Toxics (PACT) Act, however, caseloads
exceed this ratio nationwide and in some areas the ratio is
currently 204-to-1.
Additionally, in many regional offices a veteran waits on
average a month or more to meet with a counselor, with Boston
experiencing an average wait time of 33 days, Phoenix 68 days,
Atlanta 77 days, and San Diego 159 days. This means that
veterans are waiting longer, counselors are being strained, and
veterans are not receiving the best quality of services, and we
need to fix that.
While improvements can be made to the program overall, the
solution to truly ensuring veterans are accessing and able to
make the most of the VR&E program comes down to one critical
factor: staffing. For example, VA recently brought down the
wait times in Southern California, brought them down
dramatically, and the solution was more staff to lessen
workload per counselor, process veteran information faster, and
give veterans specialized attention and resources that they
require.
I am also aware that VA is in the process of modernizing
its case management system and implementing the use of
Artificial Intelligence (AI) tools, such as the electronic
virtual assistant to help schedule appointments with
counselors. While these initiatives surely will help make
casework more efficient, it is highly unlikely that this will
be enough to help VA keep up with the expected increase in
caseloads, as VA itself has forecasted.
We also cannot expect VA to improve its performance in the
already understaffed program, with VA's recent announcement
projecting an expected loss of 30,000 employees by the end of
this year. We also acknowledge that VA counselors in general
have a high turnover rate, but that is mostly because their
caseloads have become unmanageable.
I share the chairman's concerns about veterans staying in
the VR&E program for a long period of time, but I do not
necessarily agree that instituting time limits is the correct
course of legislative action. VR&E counselors do need
flexibility in determining individual veterans' situations and
circumstances rather than putting additional administrative
burdens on them to prove why a veteran needs more time.
Addressing the retention of counselors and getting their
caseload down to VA's recommended ratio of 125-to-1 is a better
use of our time.
VA data shows that regional offices that are adequately
staffed are performing well, both in terms of maintaining
manageable caseload and number of days for veterans to have
their initial meeting with a counselor. Unfortunately, only 28
percent of regional offices are at or below the targeted
caseload, with the national ratio currently at 175 cases per
counselor. There is significant room for improvement there. I
hope that this committee agrees that this is a problem that
needs to be addressed.
The services a veteran receives should not be dependent on
where a veteran chooses to live after military life, nor should
it depend on VA's plans to cut staffing that will undermine
critical programs like VR&E that veterans rely on after having
served their country. Leaving veterans to their own devices
upon leaving the service or critically undermining the VR&E
program effectiveness would be a terrible disservice to
veterans and their families and, in the end, will only hurt
veterans trying to secure the help that they deserve.
I thank you, Mr. Chairman, for holding this hearing, and I
yield back.
Mr. Van Orden. The ranking member yields back. Thank you,
Mr. Pappas.
I will now introduce our witness panel. It is you. Ms.
Margarita Devlin, acting principal deputy under secretary for
Benefits at the Department of Veterans Affairs. Will you please
stand and raise your right hand, ma'am?
[Witness sworn.]
Mr. Van Orden. Thank you. Let the record reflect that the
witness answered in the affirmative.
Ms. Devlin, you are now recognized for 5 minutes to deliver
your testimony on behalf of the Department of Veterans Affairs.
STATEMENT OF MARGARITA DEVLIN
Ms. Devlin. Chairman Van Orden, Ranking Member Pappas,
thank you for this opportunity to testify on the Veteran
Readiness and Employment Program.
I have had the privilege of seeing personally the
transformational effect that this program can have on veterans
lives, both when I started as a voc rehab counselor myself in
the field, through various leadership positions in the field
,and at national headquarters in Veterans Benefits
Administration (VBA). At every level, I witnessed how important
this program can be to their career goals or their independent
living goals.
During the first Trump administration, I served as the
principal deputy undersecretary for Benefits, and at that time
we worked diligently to get to the 1-to-125 ratio, so it was
disheartening to see that that has unraveled. VR&E's workload
has dramatically increased. In recent years, from October 2020
to June 2025, the caseload grew by 52.3 percent, and that sharp
increase was largely driven by an increase in the eligible
veteran population due to the PACT Act. Staffing allowances in
the past few years hypothetically allowed VR&E to hire 1
counselor for every 140 veterans. However, this is in sharp
contrast with VR&E's actual caseload ratio, as you mentioned,
of 1-to-175 when factoring in the current caseload and the
onboard number of counselors.
Despite these challenges, VBA has made meaningful progress
in the past couple of months. We have worked to accelerate
eligibility determinations to make sure veterans are getting
the timely support that they deserve, and we have increased
oversight over the program. VBA leadership at all levels are
being held accountable for the performance of this program so
that veterans receive the care and benefits that they deserve.
VBA is addressing the increased workload in several ways.
We deployed a help team to reduce pending applications at
several stations to help expedite entitlement determinations.
We implemented a national workload assignment strategy where
VBA assigns workload from offices with the highest caseload
ratios to stations with lower caseload ratios. This national
approach is supported by the fact that many veterans prefer the
flexibility of a virtual appointment through telecounseling
versus coming into a brick-and-mortar appointment. This helps
us balance some of the workload demands across the available
capacity. We also provided additional contract counselor
support to help some stations with higher workloads.
We have seen a huge difference across the Nation from the
cumulative effects of these workload management strategies. For
example, in one regional office we reduced the average days
pending in applicant status from over 200 days in January to an
average of 39 days as of the end of June. Veterans are seeing
success through the program. As of the end of June, over 14,000
veterans achieved positive outcomes through the VR&E program so
far this year, which is 10 percent more than this time last
year.
Employment is tracked as a subset of all positive outcomes.
An employment outcome is when a veteran finishes their training
and gains suitable employment. As of the end of June, over
7,000 veterans achieved successful employment outcomes through
VR&E, which is 15 percent above VR&E's stated goal for this
point in the year.
VBA has successfully deployed the Readiness and Employment
System, or RES, to all regional offices in the Southeast and
Northeast districts, and we are on track to deploy the
Continental and Pacific districts by the end of September. RES
has already shown measurable results. RES application
automation improved processing time from 7 days down to 3.4
days in the pilot and currently is at 2.3 average days for an
eligibility determination. This does not only expedite that
decision-making, but gets veterans quicker to a counselor for
their first appointment.
In conclusion, the VA is fully committed to making the
improvements necessary to strengthen the VR&E program. At the
heart of all this is one goal: ensuring that veterans get the
support that they need when they need it without lengthy wait
times. My commitment is simple. I want to restore your trust in
the VR&E program. More importantly, I want to make sure
veterans and transitioning servicemembers understand this
program is here for them and that they can trust that the
program will take care of them. We have a lot more work to do
and we are determined to get it right.
Mr. Chairman, this concludes my statement and I welcome any
questions you and the ranking member and any other committee
members have for me.
[The Prepared Statement Of Margarita Devlin Appears In The
Appendix]
Mr. Van Orden. Thank you, Ms. Devlin. The written statement
of Ms. Devlin will be entering into the record.
We are going to proceed to question you now. Everyone is
going to stick to the 5-minute rule.
I now recognize Ranking Member Pappas for 5 minutes for
questions.
Mr. Pappas. Well, thank you, Ms. Devlin for joining us. I
appreciate you being here and I appreciate you also relating
your experience as a voc rehab counselor. That is all valuable
perspective, but I also notice that the executive director of
the program, the one program that we are discussing today, is
not at this hearing.
Mr. Pamperin led the program during record-setting
enrollment during the PACT Act, the development of the RES
scheduling system. In fact, the reason I think we are holding
this hearing is because the chairman and Mr. Pamperin had a
back-and-forth line of questioning at a hearing a few weeks
ago. I am wondering if you can answer the question why Mr.
Pamperin is not at this hearing today.
Ms. Devlin. Yes, sir. Thank you for that question.
Mr. Pamperin is in charge of the VR&E service program, but
as I am currently performing the delegable duties of the under
secretary for Benefits, I am also responsible not only for the
VR&E program, but for the Office of Field Operations. VR&E
service controls the policymaking, the quality assurance, and
many other functions in VR&E, but it is field operations that
we are typically talking about that we have concerns with. It
is the staffing in the field. It is the counselors doing the
work on the ground.
The VR&E program leaders are just one group of leaders that
are responsible for implementing the program. We are also
talking about VA regional office directors and district
directors. Those people do not report to Mr. Pamperin. They
report to me.
Mr. Pappas. Well, I do not doubt your oversight and your
involvement in the program, but he is the named executive
director of the program. There are four additional seats at
that table and one of them should have been filled by him.
I am wondering if we can get into the detail of some of
your testimony and talk about the extended enrollment times
that we have seen. The chairman has brought to this committee's
attention a few cases in which veterans have been in VR&E for
far longer than the policy ever intended. Can you help us
understand why there are times that veterans might need to stay
in the program longer than just the average time?
Ms. Devlin. Yes, there are many reasons that a veteran
might be in a program for a long time. Sometimes it is because
they are in and out of the program. Maybe they began their
program and life circumstances took over. It could be a
worsening of their disability conditions. It could be some
other life circumstances. It could be a geographic relocation.
It could be an accident. It could be a family emergency. It
could be a whole host of reasons that could interrupt that
veteran's program and then they can return when those issues
are resolved.
You know, I have seen a case, just a veteran who was
rehabilitated just July 8th, and that veteran was in the
program for a few years, had to take time off because of
disability conditions, and then came back years later and was
able to finish, graduate the program in May--sorry, get a job
in May as a human resources manager, and is successfully
rehabilitated. You might look at that on the surface and say,
well, why was that veteran in the program so long? They needed
to take the time off for those medical conditions to restore
their health.
Mr. Pappas. Well, thanks. Are veterans paid by VA for the
entire time period that they are in the program?
Ms. Devlin. Veterans receive subsistence allowance only for
the time that they are actively pursuing training.
Mr. Pappas. Okay. Is there an average number of months that
benefits are paid out?
Ms. Devlin. Veterans are typically entitled to up to 48
months of entitlement for payment of subsistence unless an
extension is granted.
Mr. Pappas. Okay. Are there just the most common reason why
a veteran might exceed that 48-month timeframe?
Ms. Devlin. Typically it is because they have what we call
a serious employment handicap, which means they have
significant barriers to employability above an employment
handicap that requires them to have additional months of
training that they might need to become employable----
Mr. Pappas. Okay.
Ms. Devlin [continuing]. and compete with other people for
that same occupation.
Mr. Pappas. When a veteran enrolls in VR&E, what is the
process and how are counselors assigned to that veteran?
Ms. Devlin. Counselors are typically assigned based on
geography, where the veteran applies. As I indicated earlier,
however, because of our capacity issues, we have assigned
veteran applicants to counselors that have availability so that
they do not have to wait. Those counselors would meet with that
veteran either virtually or in person, depending on the
circumstances, to determine their entitlement and review
whether they--what type of rehabilitation program they might
need.
Mr. Pappas. We do hear complaints from veterans sometimes
about the difficulty in getting in contact with their
counselor. If a veteran moves to a college in a different
location, do they keep the same counselor or are they assigned
a new one?
Ms. Devlin. It depends on the changes and the capacity of
the VR&E office. If a veteran is having a hard time reaching
their counselor and they have left a voicemail message and not
gotten a return call, I would encourage them to call our main
number because we can warm transfer them to the VR&E office and
see if somebody else in that office can make sure that they get
taken care of.
Mr. Pappas. Okay. My time is limited, so maybe we will come
back in a second round, but thank you.
I yield.
Mr. Van Orden. The gentleman yields back.
The chair now recognizes Mr. Barrett for 5 minutes.
Mr. Barrett. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you for
being here today. Appreciate your testimony.
I am learning a little bit more about this program along
with several others that certainly VA has and continue the
mission that we owe to our veterans. I know you mentioned to
the ranking member a 48-month eligibility window. That is the
months of eligibility in the program, not the calendar months
it would take to necessarily progress through the program. Is
that fairly accurate?
Ms. Devlin. That is correct.
Mr. Barrett. Then an individual could be eligible for an
extension of that due to a life circumstance or a geographical
change or a worsening of their condition, another additional
months for a new training for maybe a new job or something of
that sort?
Ms. Devlin. In certain circumstances, yes, there are
criteria for those extensions.
Mr. Barrett. A person may somewhat--not to compare this
directly to the GI Bill, but maybe they would use 12 months of
eligibility, have a break in time where they were not using it,
and then come back and use it again sometime later?
Ms. Devlin. Yes. If they still have remaining months of
entitlement, they can do that.
Mr. Barrett. Okay. I know that--I believe in some of my
analysis before me, it said something like there were some
veterans in this program for like--since the 1990's, I think.
Is that some of what--is that starting and stopping or is that
people getting new benefits that have been awarded to them due
to a change in circumstance?
Ms. Devlin. Yes, thank you for the question. In my
oversight we have--I have been looking at those cases and I
have been asking the regional office directors to look at those
cases. What we found is a combination of things. Some of the
cases of veterans who seem to have been in for many, many
years, they have been in and out of the program to the point of
actually having their cases closed where they are no longer an
active case in our program. Then they come back sometimes years
later and they reapply. When we look at their cases, we see the
life of their participation even if they left the program for
several years and came back.
Mr. Barrett. Okay. The individual I think from 1991 or 1992
that we were alerted to would be somebody most likely, without
speaking in that case specifically, but in general would be
somebody who may have had some number of benefits 30 years ago
and then had time off from that and then maybe had either a
worsening of their condition, a geographic relocation, or
another change of life circumstance that would necessitate them
re-entering the program and reopening that up at some point
more recently?
Ms. Devlin. Right. Without seeing the case specifically, I
cannot speak to that case.
Mr. Barrett. Yes.
Ms. Devlin. Yes, it could be any host of those things.
Mr. Barrett. The window of time would suggest that this
person had been in the program since 1990-whenever, when, in
fact, they may have had possibly some months of eligibility
then, and then some months of eligibility today. The entirety
of that would be shown up on a report somewhere?
Ms. Devlin. Yes, that is correct.
Mr. Barrett. Okay. I appreciate that background. Then could
an individual use this, is this just for upskilling or could it
be for higher education, advanced degree fields, things of that
sort as well, sort of like the GI Bill?
Ms. Devlin. The way the statute is written is it is for a
vocational goal. Whatever that veteran's career goal, it is the
educational level that they need to be able to compete for
entry into that occupation. If that occupation that is within
their interests, aptitudes, and abilities requires a bachelor's
degree or a master's degree or, in some cases, a noncollege
degree, some technical training----
Mr. Barrett. Right.
Ms. Devlin [continuing]. that would be the level of
training that they would be approved for to participate in.
Mr. Barrett. I know we have a lot of GI Bill eligibility of
differences and things like that. Is there a lot of overlap
between a program that would be GI Bill-qualified and would be
qualified under this program as well?
Ms. Devlin. Recently, actually, VR&E tightened up those
guidelines based on an Office of Inspector General (OIG)
review. The only types of training programs that a VR&E
counselor can authorize for a veteran must be also approved for
the GI Bill. The only exception is if they want to approve a
special school, it has to come up all the way to the VR&E
service director for review.
Mr. Barrett. Okay. It would have--it is not the other way
around, though. The GI Bill does not have to be through VR&E.
The VR&E would have to be a GI Bill-approved institution----
Ms. Devlin. That is correct.
Mr. Barrett [continuing]. for qualifying. Okay. Do we pay
the full freight for that program if it is GI Bill-eligible, if
you are VR&E-eligible?
Ms. Devlin. The GI Bill has different rules in place for
how much tuition can be paid for.
Mr. Barrett. Yep.
Ms. Devlin. A VR&E participant would get 100 percent of all
tuition, books, fees, and supplies that are necessary for them
to complete the program.
Mr. Barrett. The living stipend, as well?
Ms. Devlin. As well as the living stipend, which they can
elect the Chapter 33 rate if they have that eligibility.
Mr. Barrett. Okay. Up to 48 months of eligibility, which
could be academic months, not calendar months?
Ms. Devlin. Correct. It is academic months. It is the
months that they actually receive subsistence allowance.
Mr. Barrett. Okay, thank you. Then my last question, in
just the brief time I have available, some of the automation
that you have in the replacement of legacy systems, you feel
that that is going to offload some of your staff workload to
kind of open up more bandwidth for them?
Ms. Devlin. It is definitely going to help. We are already
showing that it is limited to about----
Mr. Van Orden. The gentleman's time has expired.
Ms. Devlin [continuing]. 6,000 hours.
Mr. Van Orden. The gentleman's time has expired.
The chair now recognizes Mr. McGarvey for 5 minutes.
Mr. McGarvey. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and Ms. Devlin for
being with us today.
I would like to take a moment to talk about a piece of
bipartisan legislation I am working on and proud to be co-
leading out of this committee, the Focused Assistance and
Skills Training for Veterans Employment and Transition Success.
We call it FAST VETS for short. It is one of the several
efforts coming out of this committee aimed at making the VR&E
program work better for the people it is meant to serve: our
veterans.
The FAST VETS Act is not about overhauling VR&E. It is
about restoring integrity and ensuring counselors are not given
unnecessary workloads. This bill puts in place commonsense
guardrails. They respect veterans' time, counselors' capacity,
and taxpayer investment because a well-crafted plan is more
than a piece of paper. It is a promise.
Ms. Devlin, let us say that Jane Yoakum from Veterans of
Foreign Wars of the United States (VFW) Post 8639 in
Louisville, Kentucky, is approved for a vocational
rehabilitation plan, but later wants to change it. Something
happens. What exactly are the counselors looking at when
deciding whether to approve that change?
Ms. Devlin. That is a really great question. That is
considered a redevelopment of a plan and the counselors do have
the authority to review the plan with the veteran. In fact,
they must review the plan with the veteran at least once a year
to make sure the veteran is on track. A veteran who wishes to
change their program simply because they wish to must undergo a
review by the counselor to determine that they are not going to
be wasting basically months of entitlement on training that
would no longer be viable.
What usually happens is there is a change in circumstances
in that veteran's life. It could be disability-related, it
could be geography-related. Occupations are different in
different, you know, parts of the country. In those cases, the
VR&E counselor would work with the veteran to make sure that
they can leverage the months of entitlement they have used
while redeveloping their plan to the new vocational goal.
Mr. McGarvey. Right, because things happen, life happens.
Are those criteria consistent across regional offices? Or is,
my example I use Jane Yoakum from Louisville, Kentucky, is that
going to experience going to depend on where the veteran lives?
Ms. Devlin. It really depends on that veteran's
circumstances. This is a program for veterans who are all
individuals with their own unique circumstances and the career
goals that they are interested are unique as well. I would say
it is tailored to the individual.
Mr. McGarvey. Let us say that FAST VETS is enacted and
plans are only changed if there is a real need, like when the
plan is not workable or no longer fits their situation, like
you were just describing. What new protocols would the VA need
in place within the first year?
Ms. Devlin. That is a great question. If this was enacted
into law, we would need to put procedures in place that would
have the counselor documenting why there was a circumstance
that required this change versus it being just a request by the
veteran, which is, I believe, what you are aiming to achieve
with this bill, if I understood you correctly.
Mr. McGarvey. It is. Also, I think, you know, we are
worried about this actually going into effect. Right? Again,
this cannot be a piece of paper. We are trying to make a
program workable for our vets. This is a bridge to their
independence that we want to have happen. At least if this gets
going, can you commit to issuing updated guidance for
counselors and sharing that data with this committee on the
redevelopment rates and rationales?
Ms. Devlin. Absolutely, yes.
Mr. McGarvey. Perfect. In your written testimony, you noted
that the VA is currently short 387 vocational rehabilitation
counselors that is necessary to meet the VA's 1-to-125 target
counselor-to-veteran ratio. Given that only vocational
rehabilitation counselors are authorized to make redevelopment
decisions for veterans' rehabilitation plans and not other
employees like vocational rehabilitation specialists, what
steps is VA taking to prevent burnout and to ensure these
important decisions are not being rushed or missed?
Ms. Devlin. Thank you for the question. That is one of the
reasons we implemented the national strategy of caseload
assignment, so that we can make sure we are not burning out the
counselors in the jurisdictions where we have increased veteran
workload that they cannot manage. I will tell you that the
President's budget for Fiscal Year 2026 does allow for an
additional 403 counselors.
Mr. McGarvey. Thank you. Like I said, this is about keeping
promises. Right? This is about making sure that our veterans
have the resources they need to get back into the workforce to
build that bridge to independence. If we want VR&E to be a
bridge to that independence, we need clarity. We need
consistency. We need accountability. I know this FAST VETS bill
lays the foundation, at least a stone in the foundation for
that.
Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.
Mr. Van Orden. The gentleman yields back the remainder of
his time.
The chair now recognizes my friend from the great State of
Arizona, Mr. Ciscomani.
Mr. Ciscomani. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you also,
Ms. Devlin, for being here today and thank you for your
testimony and thank you for the time with us for coming over
and testifying.
I have been very interested in learning more about the VR&E
program as you have been talking about its success and how we
can best improve it to ensure veterans with disabilities or
barriers to employment are properly trained and also educated
in that process. I was proud to see you mentioned my bill, H.R.
3579, the Veterans Readiness and Employment Program Integrity
Act, in your testimony and that there is a benefit in having
success metrics such as participants, the employment status,
and the annual wages tracked. I think any kind of metric in
every area in government is important, but definitely here to
make sure that our veterans are being served properly, and for
the average wait times to see a counselor be published online.
I think that transparency is also very important and it points
to something that we can improve and do a better job at.
A quick question here. One key issue that I often hear
about from my constituents are the long wait times associated
with VA services overall. At the Phoenix VA in my home State of
Arizona, the average wait time for a VR&E appointment is around
114 days. One hundred and 14 days to meet with a vocational
rehab counselor, VRC obviously, which well exceeds the VA's
goal of the 60-day maximum that we have talked about.
What do you believe accounts for this and what is the VA's
plan of action to reduce these wait times, specifically in
Arizona, where the wait times in the Phoenix VA is different
than the one in the Tucson, the Southern Arizona VA, which they
happen to be on different sides of the wait time spectrum here?
What are your thoughts on that?
Ms. Devlin. Thank you for the question. I will tell you,
though, we have improved the wait times in Arizona. It is down
to just a little over 41 days now.
Mr. Ciscomani. The Phoenix VA specifically?
Ms. Devlin. Arizona as a whole.
Mr. Ciscomani. Arizona as a whole?
Ms. Devlin. Yes.
Mr. Ciscomani. Yes.
Ms. Devlin. What we are doing to improve that is we are
using a national strategy for reassigning signing cases. We
have some stations where the counselors are at either 1-to-125
ratio or less than that. We have greater capacity there. We are
using virtual counseling capability where the veteran has a
virtual counseling appointment with a counselor. It does not
have to be a counselor in Arizona. It can be a counselor in any
one of our stations that has capacity. The goal being to get
them their entitlement decision quickly so they do not have to
wait to get into a rehabilitation program.
Mr. Ciscomani. They take this from home or----
Ms. Devlin. Yes.
Mr. Ciscomani. Yes? Excellent. Okay. Well, that is good.
Thank you for informing me of that. You know, the experiences
that I hear about from our veterans at home between one of the
VAs, the Tucson one or the Phoenix one, sometimes is very
different. I am interested in looking more into the 41-day
average, I am assuming, that is between both VAs, which I am
assuming that the wait times in the Tucson VA help the average
out from what I am hearing from Phoenix. The wait times
specifically in the Phoenix one continue to be high from what I
am--from the information that I have. I want to make sure that
we tackle that.
I think I may have time for one more question. As I
mentioned previously, I believe that it is our role to ensure
individuals participating in this program are getting a good
return on the investment. Some of the recent statistics show
that what appears to be a high number of veterans re-enrolling
in the program, about 45 percent from the information that I
have. What do you believe is the cost of this high re-
enrollment rate? What does that say about the success metric of
the program and its ability to prepare and connect disabled
veterans to meaningful careers?
Ms. Devlin. Thank you for the question. The statute does
allow for veterans who were previously rehabilitated to,
obviously, reapply and to be considered for the program again.
If their disabilities worsened or that for some other reason
they can no longer perform the occupation, they may be found
entitled to another program of services. It is not a
continuation of their previous program. It is a new program
because that employment that they were suitably employed in is
no longer going to work for them.
Mr. Ciscomani. It is considered a re-enrollment, but it is
in nature a new experience, a new enrollment, a new result I am
assuming that they are waiting for?
Ms. Devlin. It does require--yes, it requires a new
rehabilitation plan with a new goal.
Mr. McGarvey. Okay, excellent. Well, that is all. I have
got one more, but we can do that later.
Thank you, sir. Appreciate it. Yield back.
Mr. Van Orden. The gentleman yields back.
Ms. Devlin, I just want to--what happened, like, what
happened over the last, you know, insert months where this
seemed to kind of spiral out of control? Can you, you know,
give me the Reader's Digest on that one?
Ms. Devlin. Well, the main thing is the ballooning of the
workload because of the PACT Act making more veterans eligible
to apply. Those veterans are predominantly in--certain states
have a higher, you know, veteran population. Those stations got
impacted more.
Mr. Van Orden. I was not here. Were you here for the PACT
Act, Chris?
Mr. Pappas. Mm-hmm.
Mr. Van Orden. Was that thought of? I mean, was this
predicted in the PACT Act? By the way, we are going to have
more guys and gals, and, therefore, we are going to have to
have more counselors for VR&E?
Mr. Pappas. I am sure it was anticipated, yes.
Mr. Van Orden. Okay. Then we are just failing somewhere
along the lines.
I want to talk to you for a second. You said you need 387
additional counselors on top of what is in the President's
budget?
Ms. Devlin. Yes, sir. That would be to get us to the 1-to-
125 ratio.
Mr. Van Orden. Okay. You are saying you need roughly 800
counselors, is that right?
Ms. Devlin. We currently have 1,056 performing this work.
Mr. Van Orden. You need 1,400 or 1,500 total? Okay. How
many vets have been in this program for longer than 48 months?
Ms. Devlin. I do not have that number off the top of my
head, sir.
Mr. Van Orden. Right here. It is big. This is, I mean,
Chris cannot read this, by the way. I can. I mean, it is really
small. I did take my glasses off to read it, but we got some
people here that have been receiving these benefits for like 82
months in a row and 461,000 bucks, we got $895,000. The list
goes on and on and on and on and on. I am just wondering, you
know, has anyone been held accountable to your knowledge, and I
know you just got there, for this?
I mean, imagine how much medical benefits we could give to
folks or how many more of these people we could hire if we were
not spending $900,000 for an individual to get 72 months of
training doing I do not know what. To your knowledge, has
anyone been held accountable for this?
Ms. Devlin. We have increased oversight over the last
couple of months in looking into those cases to make sure that
the right things are being done. Either the veteran needs to be
re-engaged and finish their program or----
Mr. Van Orden. Ma'am, I understand. I am talking about at
the Veterans Affairs Administration, to your knowledge, has
anyone been held accountable for this absolute buffoonery?
Ms. Devlin. We have to look at the individual cases. It is
not necessarily incorrect for that veteran to be in the program
that long.
Mr. Van Orden. Ms. Devlin, where do you go to college where
you spend $900,000 for a degree?
Ms. Devlin. One of those cases that I looked at in my
oversight capacity was actually an independent living case
where the veteran needed adaptation to their home to be able to
navigate their home effectively.
Mr. Van Orden. Okay. Now, this is what we talked about
previously, and we are talking about splitting pools of money,
but is that the case with this guy? We do not know. It is
interrupted. We need to really get into this because this
committee is also responsible for adaptive housing, so we need
to have very clear funding lines.
There is another thing. How do you establish the Basic
Allowance for Housing (BAH) rate for a student? What is it
based on?
Ms. Devlin. The BAH rate is established in the Chapter 33
guidelines, and VR&E simply uses those tables.
Mr. Van Orden. Okay. If a person's home of record is in
Michigan and they fly to San Diego to take a single class, they
get San Diego per diem?
Ms. Devlin. They would get their rate----
Mr. Van Orden. Or BAH.
Ms. Devlin. Yes, sir. They would get the rate based on the
facility they are attending in person.
Mr. Van Orden. Okay. See, this is an issue because that is
$4,000. BAH, you know, having been in the military for a long
time, is based on where you live or your duty station. This is
something that Chris and I have to work on because that is
fraudulent, in my opinion. You know, you are living in a place
where the cost of living is so small, and then you fly in for a
single class to do something, and you are, you know, making
three times the BAH. That is something we need to look at from
an oversight perspective, because that is legislative.
Ms. Devlin. That is legislative. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Van Orden. That is why we need to do our job. I am
telling you, it is frustrating a little bit. What do you think?
Like, right now, you have a magic wand, what do you do to fix
this program? We got 19 seconds.
Ms. Devlin. I do not have a magic wand. What we are doing
is increasing internal controls to make sure that we can more
closely monitor these things and hold our leaders accountable
for monitoring the program.
Mr. Van Orden. Okay. Well, my time has expired.
Mr. Pappas, do you have more questions?
Mr. Pappas. Yes, thank you.
Mr. Van Orden. All right. We will do a second round of
questioning. Mr. Pappas, you are now recognized for 5 minutes.
Mr. Pappas. Thanks very much. I know our friend Mike Levin
used to sit in the seat and was very much focused on what was
happening in San Diego, where the numbers were far greater in
terms of wait times than what I would see in my region of the
country. The regional office for VR&E in my region in Boston,
the wait time is 33 days. I understand that progress has been
made at San Diego. I know that was in your testimony. Can you
drill down a little bit on that in terms of what tools have
proven successful there? I know you talked about the virtual
counseling capabilities and redistributing work, and if you
could also talk about whether that has met with veteran
acceptance along the way, and that is a path that veterans are
okay with choosing, it would be great to hear that.
Ms. Devlin. Yes. With San Diego specifically, we deployed a
help team of 11 people. These are people who were recently put
into quality assurance positions. They are some of our best
counselors, and they dug in and helped San Diego first, and
then we also did the reassignment of work for the virtual
counseling.
We have not heard any complaints. Veterans seem to really
appreciate the availability of virtual counseling. Truthfully,
it is seamless to them where their counselor sits as long as
they get the counseling appointment that they need to get
entitlement and get a rehabilitation plan developed.
Mr. Pappas. Okay. It appears that progress was made in part
by making sure that ratios were in a much more acceptable place
than they previously had been in San Diego. Is that right?
Ms. Devlin. Yes. Ratios were adjusted based on moving the
workload to the people that we have on board.
Mr. Pappas. Okay. It appears that you cannot fully get
there nationally and address those ratios without the
additional people that you indicated you need for the program.
Ms. Devlin. That is correct.
Mr. Pappas. Okay. As enrollments increased since the
passage of PACT, obviously staffing became a challenge and did
not keep pace. I am wondering if you can reflect a little bit
more on why that was the case.
Ms. Devlin. The VR&E Division and the field offices did do
some hiring over the last few years, but they also had some
attrition. I will say that the field of rehabilitation
counseling as a whole is not a growing occupation. That is why
the new position of voc rehab specialist was created, so that
different bachelor's degrees, for example, in other human
services occupations could be considered.
The previous administration had to make decisions, and they
made decisions about hiring based on disability claims
processing. The priority was given to hiring of disability
claims processors versus voc rehab counselors.
Mr. Pappas. In terms of the work that counselors do,
obviously you can look at it in terms of numbers and having
caseloads in the right place that might provide them with a
better working environment and an ability to help veterans in a
more timely fashion. Are there other ways you are thinking
about retention and holding on to those qualified counselors
that you have and working to avoid burnout?
Ms. Devlin. Yes, I am very concerned about retention with
our counselors. I have recently convened a group of leaders
from the field, regional office directors, assistant directors,
and VR&E officers to meet with me to give me recommendations on
how we can make improvements in the field. VR&E service has
done some great work, but really the field is where the rubber
meets the road. Those are the people that I need to hear from
directly. We have started meeting and discussing what to do to
improve the program as a whole and also to improve things like
retention and recruitment.
Mr. Pappas. Okay. That is it for me. I will yield back, Mr.
Chairman.
Mr. Van Orden. Thank you, Ranking Member Pappas.
Can you explain to me the difference between a veterans
rehabilitation specialist and a veterans rehabilitation
counselor?
Ms. Devlin. Yes, sir. A vocational rehabilitation counselor
has a master's degree in rehabilitation counseling, and so it
is a specific industry. Then a vocational--and they can make
decisions, like entitlement decisions, and they can do the full
gamut of services. They can get a veteran all the way from the
very beginning of application, all the way through to
declaration of rehabilitation.
A vocational rehab specialist can be at a bachelor's level,
similar types of educational credentials, but at the bachelor's
level. They cannot make entitlement decisions, but they can
help the veteran. Once the rehabilitation plan has been
developed by a voc rehab counselor, they can help the veteran
throughout the lifetime of their case, all the way through
declarations of rehabilitation or discontinuance if the veteran
stops participating.
Mr. Van Orden. What is the ratio between a specialist and a
counselor? Like, how many specialists do you have compared to
counselors?
Ms. Devlin. Well, you know, I have the combined number. It
is 1,056 of the two combined. I am sorry, I do not have the
ratio between the two.
Mr. Van Orden. In your professional opinion, do you think
you need a master's degree to pull this off?
Ms. Devlin. I think that what the master's degree gives us,
I have a master's degree in rehabilitation counseling, and the
training that you get in those master's degrees is how to
really take a look at the disability conditions and the
occupational areas and all of the support that a veteran might
need to achieve rehabilitation and overcome those barriers.
Other occupations, such as social work, for example, might be
more comprehensive in the clinical sense, but less focused on
the occupational sense.
Mr. Van Orden. Well, Ms. Devlin, I would posit that if you
have a 45 percent recidivism rate, that is the wrong term
because they are not going to jail, but if 45 percent of our
veterans are returning, I would say that maybe we are not
getting the money--or the bang for the buck with a master's
degree. If someone is--if they are missing the mark 45 percent
of the time. What we are trying to do, if you need an
additional 400 folks, you know, that is going to be really hard
to produce these people.
What I need from you is I need the ratio and I would like
to see the specific differences. If you do not have in front of
you right now, just get it to me. I want to see the specific
differences in authorities. Having done this myself, and my
counselor, her first name was Ann, I will not say her name, but
was awesome. You know, I do not know if she had a master's
degree or a bachelor's degree. She was great. Then seeing
people along the way, I just think that what we are doing is we
are requiring an educational--we are setting a standard for an
education that is actually limiting our ability to hire people.
I do not see an appreciable difference between the two right
now.
I do not want this to be a program that is hampered by an
artificial requirement. The Secretary of Defense and some other
folks have removed these requirements for GS levels. You know,
you have to have a bachelor's to be this and a master's. Okay.
That has been removed through a lot of these different career
fields. I think that is something we need to look at here just
because of these things. I mean, we got real--we have empiric
knowledge, you know, experience-based knowledge now that this
is something that needs to be looked at. You know, to my
ranking member friend's point, you know, we want to make sure
that we can get everybody what they need.
You are good? Okay. Well, I want to thank you for coming
today, Ms. Devlin. We do have a lot of work ahead of us. I want
this to be an open line of communication and, again, I accept
full responsibility for my lack of oversight being the chairman
of the subcommittee in the last Congress. That is on me and I
am not running away from that. I know that you have personally
assured me and I am going to take you at your word that you
will increase your oversight and I would like to be able to
exchange ideas on this.
Again, this is a fantastic program, but it is rife for
abuse and it is too easy to defraud this program. We want to
make sure that we hyper focus these dollars because this, I
mean, how much is it, 72,000 bucks a year? I mean, we could
essentially fund everybody you need if we got rid of what is
clearly fraud. I mean, we can say whatever you want, but you do
not spend $900,000, not have a bachelor's degree. It is just
not it.
Then we are also going to work on splitting off the
adaptive home things because those are super important, too. I
mean, that veteran loses their legs or arms or whatever, that
is--we need to do that and I do not care how much it costs.
That is a debt that we owe to the veterans. I just want to be
able to clean up our funding lines so we know exactly what we
are spending it on, so we can maximize these dollars to give
every veteran that earned these benefits exactly what they need
to thrive.
I would now like to yield to my ranking member if you have
any closing comments, sir.
Mr. Pappas. No, thanks. I think we generally agree on the
challenges here, and I am, you know, grateful to hear some of
the ways that you have made some progress at realizing better
numbers in certain locations around the country, including San
Diego. I think they are important lessons to be learned.
In addition to rebalancing caseloads and having better
internal controls and providing the best training possible, it
is clear this is an issue where we need more people. We need
more counselors and support staff in order to get to those
ratios that are acceptable so that veterans are not waiting far
too long and are getting the help that they deserve.
I know I want to work with you on that to help get you the
support that you need and deserve there. I am grateful for your
reflections and want to continue to make sure we are engaging
the veteran community in terms of their own satisfaction and
trust with respect to this program, which is a real game-
changer, as you said, Mr. Chairman. I am glad that this support
is there.
We have got a ways to go to make it better. Certainly we
have to pay attention to those cases where fraud is possible or
where it may be happening. As you say, there are complex cases
out there, and I think we need to make sure that we are focused
on the big challenge here, which is ensuring that the increased
number of veterans that are moving through this program get the
help they need. You cannot get there without people and having
the right staff. I remain committed to providing that as best I
can.
I yield back.
Mr. Van Orden. The gentleman yields back.
Ms. Devlin, again, thank you so much for coming today. I
appreciate it. It is kind of lonely sitting out there by
yourself, but you did a bang up job.
I ask unanimous consent that all members may have 5
legislative of days to revise and extend their remarks and
include extraneous materials.
Without objection, so ordered.
The hearing is now adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 3:21 p.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.]
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A P P E N D I X
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Prepared Statements of Witnesses
----------
Prepared Statement of Margarita Devlin
Chairman Van Orden, Ranking Member Pappas, and distinguished
members of the Subcommittee, I appreciate the opportunity to appear
before you today to discuss the Veteran Readiness and Employment (VR&E)
Program.
I had the privilege of seeing the transformational impact of the
VR&E program from multiple vantage points. I began my journey as a
counselor working directly with Veterans to navigate their career paths
and achieve their goals. I then had the honor of holding several
leadership positions in VR&E in the field and at headquarters. At every
level I witnessed how the program can truly change lives--helping
Veterans rediscover purpose, achieve independence, and thrive in their
post-service careers. During the first Trump administration, I served
as the Principal Deputy Under Secretary for Benefits.
One of our top priorities at that time was to address staffing
shortfalls in VR&E by working diligently to achieve the counselor-to-
Veteran ratio of 1 to 125. That is why it was especially disheartening
to see much of that progress eroded over the past 4 years.
Challenges and Change
One of the challenges we face is the result of programmatic
mismanagement over the past few years, which diverted critical funding
away from hiring much needed counselors. Under this Administration's
leadership, I developed a resourcing plan to ensure that resources
allocated to VR&E through the President's budget are fully directed to
the mission they are intended to support. Bottom line--not having focus
on the program and ignoring the challenges it faced was unacceptable.
Despite these challenges, we made meaningful progress in the past
couple of months. I understand that your staff recently visited our San
Diego Regional Office. I hope you saw there that we are working hard to
make changes to better serve Veterans.
Other significant changes currently in progress include improving
workload management, which you highlighted in previous hearings--high
wait times and cases so old due to lack of proper oversight.
We also are accelerating eligibility decisions and making sure
Veterans are getting the timely support they deserve. We deployed help
teams, streamlined processes, and focused squarely on service delivery.
Under new leadership, my commitment is simple. I want to restore
your trust in the VR&E program and earn the trust of the Veterans and
transitioning Service members who earned this benefit and deserve only
the best.
Program Overview
The mission of the Veterans Benefits Administration (VBA) VR&E
program is to assist Service members and Veterans with a service-
connected disability that limits their ability to work or prevents them
from finding or maintaining suitable careers or living more
independently. VBA achieves this mission by providing direct counseling
services to ensure participants' goals are not only achievable but
attained.
VR&E assists Service members and Veterans to find a suitable career
goal or to live more independently through its five tracks of service:
(1) rapid access to employment, (2) re-employment, (3) employment
through long-term services, (4) self-employment, and (5) independent
living. VR&E works directly with Service members and Veterans to
identify suitable goals and develop a highly individualized plan for
them. VR&E also monitors their progress and provides professional
counseling and support by trained Vocational Rehabilitation Counselors
(VRCs) and Vocational Rehabilitation Specialists (VRS).
Program Growth, Staffing, and Workload Management
VA consistently monitors Veteran participation in VR&E services to
ensure that the program provides dedicated and focused counseling that
leads to successful employment outcomes. From October 2020 to June
2025, the VR&E caseload grew significantly. The caseload was 112,627 in
October 2020 and is 186,826 as of June 2025, reflecting a total growth
of 52.3 percent. This sharp increase underscores the escalating demand
for VR&E services, driven by an increase in the eligible Veteran
population due to the PACT Act and Benefits Delivery at Discharge
program, as well as successful outreach efforts aimed at informing more
Veterans about the program. This includes the program name change in
June 2020, to better reflect the program's focus on helping Veterans
achieve their employment goals and reduce any stigma or confusion
associated with the previous name.
Staffing allowances in the past few Fiscal Years allowed VR&E to
hire 1 counselor for every 140 Veterans in the program. However, with
VBA's current counselors onboard, VR&E is at a national caseload ratio
at 1 to 175. VR&E currently requires an additional 387 counselors to
meet the growing demand for VR&E services and drive the staffing toward
1 to 125 counselor to caseload ratio. While VA is reviewing the
staffing levels and budget, VR&E is actively taking steps to ensure
that every Veteran receives the care and benefits they earned.
VBA is addressing the increasing VR&E workload through several
approaches. In recent months, we implemented a help team approach to
reduce pending applications at several stations. In this model we take
a team of 11 Quality Review Specialists and partner them with station
resources to conduct group orientation sessions and expedited
entitlement determinations in the initial stages of the VR&E claims
process. This implementation allows us to reduce the pending work at
the application and evaluation and planning stages, thus providing
faster decisions to Veterans. The San Diego Regional Office (RO) used
this approach, and recently other stations used this approach to assist
pending workload. Quality Assurance results will be monitored to
determine if there is an impact to claim quality.
We implemented brokering strategies to address geographical demand
and make the most efficient use of our national resources to process
pending claims timelier. Stations with the highest caseload ratios
broker work to stations with lower caseloads, thus allowing the pending
work to be addressed more efficiently. We shift work strategically to
balance demands and resources nationwide, thus improving the timeliness
of services to Veterans. We employ a combination of a regular brokering
cadence and supplement this by addressing surges in workload as needed.
We conduct a regular analysis of all workload stages and make
adjustment as needed.
We also address our increasing claims inventory by using
contracting funds. We are using contracting funds to target assistance
to stations with high workloads. The primary focus is on the reduction
of the applicant workload but also focuses on cases in the interrupted
status. We assign contract dollars as needed for this effort to ensure
the funds are allocated based on greatest workload need. Initial
results of this new effort are positive.
We are taking advantage of technology to improve our service to
Veterans participating in the VR&E program. We launched the Electronic
Virtual Assistant (eVA) system on June 20, 2020, which increased
efficiencies in administrative duties like requesting and collecting
documents in support of the claim and sending appointment reminders. We
began implementation of our new Readiness and Employment System (RES)
nationwide on May 19, 2025. RES is a new modern case management system
that will ultimately replace the legacy system, CWINRS.\1\ RES will
increase automation and reduce manual calculations, reduce the time
needed to perform case management activities, display real-time
eligibility and benefit information, and improve business processes to
name a few. We will complete this staged implementation roll out by the
end of September 2025. Once RES is fully deployed, it will capture
additional efficiencies in the establishment of new cases, automate
certain financial functions, and provide a more efficient VRC user
interface. Veterans will experience reduced wait times and faster
decisions.
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\1\ Corporate Winston-Salem, Indianapolis, Newark, Roanoke, and
Seattle System. The name is derived from the first letter of the names
of the five pilot test stations that tested the original program. It is
an automated case management system supporting the VR&E program
(legacy).
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To address the growing demand for VR&E services, we designed these
multiple approaches to mitigate against the current staffing shortage.
In addition to these efforts, we use and leverage overtime funds for
addressing high priority areas, conduct monthly calls with stations for
discussing the status of aging cases, and increase oversight and
management support for improving efficiency, applying best practices,
and ensuring agile workload strategies are in place.
Program Oversight
VA's dedication to improving the VR&E program led to several
initiatives aimed at enhancing service delivery for Veterans. Our
comprehensive plan to enhance VR&E program compliance underscores our
strong commitment to proper oversight, regulatory adherence, and
consistent service delivery across all regional offices. Due to the
increased demand for services, national compliance required additional
oversight for workload management and customer service strategies.
Consequently, we adjusted auditing processes to ensure field leaders
had the necessary knowledge and skills to meet larger workload demands.
As part of this initiative, we designed revamped site visit
protocols to ensure consistency and thorough workload management. We
structure these visits to identify best practices, address challenges,
and ensure compliance with regulations, policies, and procedures. The
goals are to guarantee consistent service delivery across all VR&E ROs,
provide comprehensive workload management and oversight, highlight and
share best practices, and promptly address challenges. These measures
reflect our dedication to improving the VR&E Program and offering
Veterans the highest quality of service.
VA is committed to ensuring that congressional intent is carried
out in a fiscally responsible and responsible manner to honor Veterans
enrolled in the program. An example of VA's responsiveness is
demonstrated by the quick actions taken as a result of a 2023 Office of
Inspector General (OIG) report. VA demonstrated proactive leadership
and commitment to compliance by implementing significant reforms to
ensure adherence to Chapter 31-only program requirements. OIG
identified that VR&E did not correctly implement the law requiring
individual waivers from the executive director for each participant in
a Chapter 31-only program.
VA updated its guidance, emphasizing that VRCs must use approved GI
Bill programs to the maximum extent. VA worked to ensure only Veterans
in unique circumstances received approval to attend a program with this
limited authority. VA provided training, updated national procedures,
and discontinued facilities outside of congressional intent in less
than a year. We complemented these efforts with the establishment of
robust monitoring processes, including the implementation of compliance
surveys and Department-wide auditing, thus ensuring all Chapter 31-only
programs align with legislative intent. VA's proactive actions reflect
a dedicated effort to enhance program integrity and ensure that
Veterans receive the highest standard of service. These initiatives
fortified VA's compliance framework and reaffirmed its commitment to
accountability and oversight of Veteran service delivery.
VBA also conducts monthly national quality assurance (QA) reviews
on random samples from each RO, alongside individual case manager
performance assessments through QA reviews conducted at each local
office. As of May 2025, VR&E exceeded the outstanding target in all
national performance metrics including Fiscal Accuracy (96 percent),
Case Management Accuracy (84 percent), and Program Outcome Accuracy (98
percent).
VR&E related legislation
VA testified before the House Committee on Veterans' Affairs
Subcommittee on Economic Opportunity on June 11, 2025, on several bills
that would impact the VR&E program. VA supported the proposed
legislation that would limit the extension of a vocational
rehabilitation program under Chapter 31 to 96 months unless the
Secretary determines that extraordinary circumstances apply and submits
written notices of the extension and the extraordinary circumstances to
the House and Senate Committees on Veterans' Affairs. The limitations
on extensions in the proposed bill would ensure that resources are used
effectively and fairly. The goal of the VR&E program is to provide
personalized support tailored to each Veteran's rehabilitation
objectives, thus helping them achieve suitable employment or live more
independently within a reasonable timeframe rather than extending
benefits indefinitely. Furthermore, VA proposed an amendment to align
the calculation of entitlement for the VR&E program with other VA
education programs. This amendment aims to reduce the disparity in the
order of usage and address reductions of entitlement in the VR&E
program resulting from the transfer of entitlement to a dependent.
VA also supported H.R. 3579, the Veterans Readiness and Employment
Program Integrity Act. This proposed legislation would require the
Secretary to report on the employment and annual wages of its
participants, thus ensuring Veterans are achieving meaningful
employment. It also would require the Secretary, on an annual basis, to
publish on a VA website the average wait time from when a Veteran
requests a vocational rehabilitation program under Chapter 31 to when
the Veteran first meets with a counselor as part of the Veteran's
program.
Additionally, H.R. 3579 proposes a 1-year limit on employment
assistance for Veterans who have previously participated in the VR&E
program or a similar vocational rehabilitation service. Research
indicates that the highest engagement in employment services typically
occurs within the first 3 to 6 months. Most participants find
employment during this timeframe. VA suggested an amendment to apply a
similar limitation to counseling and placement and postplacement
services addressed in section 3105(b)(1), which currently allows for
assistance for up to 18 months. This limitation aims to ensure that
services and resources are used more efficiently and effectively.
The VR&E program acknowledges that collecting and reporting data is
crucial for demonstrating the program's effectiveness and improving its
services. The program recently achieved split positive outcomes to show
those metrics on Veterans who obtain employment and those who have
achieved rehabilitation to the point of employability. The program
constantly seeks ways to demonstrate a good return on investment and
ensure that it effectively meets the needs of Veterans participating in
the VR&E program.
Employment Metrics
Veterans who complete a program of rehabilitation show
significantly better outcomes compared to those who stop participating
such as higher employment rates (73 percent vs. 43 percent), greater
income earnings ($80k vs. $50k), and increased home ownership (77
percent vs. 62 percent).\2\ In addition, their reliance on supplemental
programs decreased (35 percent vs. 58 percent), thus highlighting
participants successful transition and reduced need for further
support.
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\2\ Fiscal Year 2023 Veteran Readiness and Employment (VR&E)
Longitudinal Study
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Continuing our commitment to helping more Veterans successfully
transition into the workforce, VR&E focuses on employment outcomes. An
employment outcome represents a rehabilitation when a Veteran completes
their program and is successful in gaining suitable employment. From
Fiscal Year (FY) 2020 to Fiscal Year 2024, VR&E Service recorded a
consistent number of employment outcomes, over 10,000 each fiscal year,
and 10,501 in Fiscal Year 2024 alone. In Fiscal Year 2025, 7,486
employment outcomes were achieved through June 20, 2025, which is
currently 9 percent over the established target for Employment
Outcomes.
Readiness and Employment System
As noted earlier in this testimony, VR&E began implementation of
the RES nationwide. A significant leap toward enhancing efficiency and
service delivery, VR&E successfully automated the eligibility
determination process through the RES. This process, previously
requiring the effort of two employees, was streamlined to require only
one employee, thanks to the integration with the Master Person Index
and VA Profile. When an application arrives in RES, it is immediately
matched with enterprise data to automate previously manual data entry,
thus ensuring all necessary information is readily available. The
system's intuitive design processes the data and uses green checkmarks
and red X's to visually represent eligibility decisions, thus
simplifying the validation process for field staff. This automation not
only expedites decision-making but also allows staff to focus on more
critical aspects of their roles. Accepted applications lead directly to
case creation and the assignment of a VRC, thus ensuring timely service
for Veterans. By the end of the pilot, RES automation demonstrated an
average processing time for Eligibility of 3.4 days, versus over 7 days
in the legacy CWINRS platform.
RES significantly increases the availability of real-time data,
thus enabling more informed and accurate entitlement decisions through
automated business rules. By consolidating various data sources and
providing comprehensive insights into each Veteran's profile, RES helps
address individual needs more effectively and optimizes the support
provided. In addition, RES's embedded analytics and robust tracking of
case management enable more effective decision-making and workload
management.
Since October 9, 2024, the automation processes within RES
eliminated 5,903 hours of manual data entry, thus allowing field staff
to dedicate more time to directly supporting Veterans. The automated
eligibility determinations transformed a two-person intake process into
a simplified one-person review, which greatly improved efficiency. In
addition, the automation of calculation and case approval processes
reduces the need for out-of-system procedures, thus simplifying data
management. The implementation of a modern user interface based on
human-centered design principles minimizes fatigue and ensures easy
access to information within correct workflows, thus further reducing
administrative constraints.
Conclusion
In conclusion, VA is fully committed to making the improvements
necessary to strengthen the VR&E program from ensuring fiscal
stewardship and filling critical vacancies to modernizing how we
deliver services. At the heart of all this work is one goal: ensuring
that Veterans receive the support they earned, when they need it,
without lengthy wait times. We know we have work to do, and we are
determined to get it right. Our Veterans deserve nothing less. Mr.
Chairman, this concludes my statement. I would be happy to answer any
questions you or other members of the Subcommittee may have.
Statements for the Record
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Prepared Statement of U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs, Office of
the Inspector General
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Prepared Statement of Veterans Education Success
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
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