[House Hearing, 119 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]



                   U.S. POLICY ON INVESTMENT SECURITY

=======================================================================




                                HEARING

                               before the

          SUBCOMMITTEE ON NATIONAL SECURITY, ILLICIT FINANCE,
                AND INTERNATIONAL FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS

                                 of the

                    COMMITTEE ON FINANCIAL SERVICES
                     U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS

                             FIRST SESSION
                               __________

                             JULY 16, 2025
                               __________

                           Serial No. 119-34


       Printed for the use of the Committee on Financial Services




               [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]




                            www.govinfo.gov
                            
   
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                   U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
 
61-135 PDF                 WASHINGTON : 2025                             
                            






































                            
                 HOUSE COMMITTEE ON FINANCIAL SERVICES

                    FRENCH HILL, Arkansas, Chairman

BILL HUIZENGA, Michigan, Vice        MAXINE WATERS, California, Ranking 
  Chairman                             Member
FRANK D. LUCAS, Oklahoma             SYLVIA R. GARCIA, Texas, Vice 
PETE SESSIONS, Texas                   Ranking Member
ANN WAGNER, Missouri                 NYDIA M. VELAZQUEZ, New York
ANDY BARR, Kentucky                  BRAD SHERMAN, California
ROGER WILLIAMS, Texas                GREGORY W. MEEKS, New York
TOM EMMER, Minnesota                 DAVID SCOTT, Georgia
BARRY LOUDERMILK, Georgia            STEPHEN F. LYNCH, Massachusetts
WARREN DAVIDSON, Ohio                AL GREEN, Texas
JOHN W. ROSE, Tennessee              EMANUEL CLEAVER, Missouri
BRYAN STEIL, Wisconsin               JAMES A. HIMES, Connecticut
WILLIAM R. TIMMONS, IV, South        BILL FOSTER, Illinois
  Carolina                           JOYCE BEATTY, Ohio
MARLIN STUTZMAN, Indiana             JUAN VARGAS, California
RALPH NORMAN, South Carolina         JOSH GOTTHEIMER, New Jersey
DANIEL MEUSER, Pennsylvania          VICENTE GONZALEZ, Texas
YOUNG KIM, California                SEAN CASTEN, Illinois
BYRON DONALDS, Florida               AYANNA PRESSLEY, Massachusetts
ANDREW R. GARBARINO, New York        RASHIDA TLAIB, Michigan
SCOTT FITZGERALD, Wisconsin          RITCHIE TORRES, New York
MIKE FLOOD, Nebraska                 NIKEMA WILLIAMS, Georgia
MICHAEL LAWLER, New York             BRITTANY PETTERSEN, Colorado
MONICA DE LA CRUZ, Texas             CLEO FIELDS, Louisiana
ANDREW OGLES, Tennessee              JANELLE BYNUM, Oregon
ZACHARY NUNN, Iowa                   SAM LICCARDO, California
LISA McCLAIN, Michigan
MARIA SALAZAR, Florida
TROY DOWNING, Montana
MIKE HARIDOPOLOS, Florida
TIM MOORE, North Carolina

                      Ben Johnson, Staff Director

                                 ------                                

        SUBCOMMITTEE ON NATIONAL SECURITY, ILLICIT FINANCE, AND
        
                  INTERNATIONAL FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS

                    WARREN DAVIDSON, Ohio, Chairman

ZACHARY NUNN, Iowa, Vice Chairman    JOYCE BEATTY, Ohio, Ranking Member
FRANK D. LUCAS, Oklahoma             JOSH GOTTHEIMER, New Jersey
PETE SESSIONS, Texas                 JUAN VARGAS, California
ANDY BARR, Kentucky                  BILL FOSTER, Illinois
ROGER WILLIAMS, Texas                VICENTE GONZALEZ, Texas
YOUNG KIM, California                RITCHIE TORRES, New York
ANDREW OGLES, Tennessee              SEAN CASTEN, Illinois
LISA MCCLAIN, Michigan               SAM LICCARDO, California
MARIA SALAZAR, Florida 





































                         C  O  N  T  E  N  T  S

                               ----------                              

                        Wednesday, July 16, 2025
                           OPENING STATEMENTS

                                                                   Page
Hon. Warren Davidson, Chairman of the Subcommittee on National 
  Security, Illicit Finance and International Financial 
  Institutions, a U.S. Representative from Ohio..................     1
Hon. Joyce Beatty, Ranking Member of the Subcommittee on National 
  Security, Illicit Finance and International Financial 
  Institutions, a U.S. Representative from Ohio..................     2

                               WITNESSES

Mr. Jonathan Samford, President and Chief Executive Officer, 
  Global Business Alliance.......................................     3
    Prepared statement...........................................     5
Mr. Brian Reissaus, Senior Advisor for National Security, 
  Freshfields US LLP.............................................     9
    Prepared statement...........................................    11
Mr. Benjamin Joseloff, Partner, Cravath, Swaine & Moore LLP......    16
    Prepared statement...........................................    18
Dr. Sarah Bauerle Danzman, Associate Professor of International 
  Studies, Indiana University Bloomington........................    26
    Prepared statement...........................................    28

                                APPENDIX

                   MATERIALS SUBMITTED FOR THE RECORD

Hon. Warren Davidson:
    Investment Company Institute (ICI) Statement.................    46
Hon. French Hill:
    Sidley, U.S. Outbound Investment Regulations: Lessons and 
      Takeaways Six Months In....................................    52

                 RESPONSES TO QUESTIONS FOR THE RECORD

Written responses to questions for the record from Representative 
  Joyce Beatty
    Dr. Sarah Bauerle Danzman....................................    57
Written responses to questions for the record from Representative 
  Maxine Waters
    Mr. Jonathan Samford.........................................    58
    Mr. Brian Reissaus...........................................    60
    Mr. Benjamin Joseloff........................................    62
    Dr. Sarah Bauerle Danzman....................................    65
Written responses to questions for the record from Representative 
  French Hill
    Mr. Brian Reissaus...........................................    69
    Mr. Benjamin Joseloff........................................    71

 
                   U.S. POLICY ON INVESTMENT SECURITY

                              ----------                              

                        Wednesday, July 16, 2025

             U.S. House of Representatives,
                 Subcommittee on National Security,
                 Illicit Finance, and International
                            Financial Institutions,
                           Committee on Financial Services,
                                                   Washington, D.C.

    The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:04 a.m., in 
room 2128, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Warren Davidson 
[chairman of the subcommittee] presiding.
    Present: Representatives Davidson, Lucas, Barr, Williams of 
Texas, Kim, Beatty, Foster, and Liccardo.
    Chairman Davidson. The Subcommittee on National Security, 
Illicit Finance, and International Institutions will come to 
order.
    Without objection, the chairman is authorized to declare a 
recess of the committee at any time.
    This hearing is titled, ``U.S. Policy on Investment 
Security.''
    Without objection, all members will have 5 legislative days 
within which to submit extraneous materials to the chairman for 
inclusion in the record.
    I now recognize myself for an opening statement.

  OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. WARREN DAVIDSON, CHAIRMAN OF THE 
    SUBCOMMITTEE ON NATIONAL SECURITY, ILLICIT FINANCE AND 
  INTERNATIONAL FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS, A U.S. REPRESENTATIVE 
                           FROM OHIO

    I welcome our distinguished witnesses to today's hearing on 
U.S. policy on investment security where we examine the 
Committee on Foreign Investment in the United States (CFIUS)and 
its critical role in safeguarding our national security. 
Today's testimony will provide a comprehensive overview of 
CFIUS' authorities and operations to protect American interests 
from foreign investment risks. Established in 1975 under the 
Department of Treasury, CFIUS evaluates foreign investments 
posing a national security threat. The 2018 Foreign Investment 
Risk Review Modernization Act, otherwise known as FIRRMA, 
expanded its jurisdiction to include non-controlling 
investments in critical technologies, infrastructure, and 
sensitive personal data. CFIUS must rigorously scrutinize 
foreign investments from any source that could undermine our 
technology, agriculture, energy sectors, and more, while 
enabling beneficial investment inflows that actually strengthen 
our economy.
    I commend President Trump's February National Security 
Presidential Memorandum--NSPM--directing CFIUS to intensify 
oversight of adversarial investments while streamlining reviews 
for trusted allies. CFIUS must operate efficiently to 
neutralize threats without burdening American business. 
However, reviewing inbound investments alone cannot fully 
protect our national security. Congress needs to enact a robust 
outbound investment bill with severe sanctions to prevent U.S. 
capital from supporting industries and adversarial nations that 
threaten our sovereignty. This legislation needs to provide a 
clear, streamlined framework ensuring American companies can 
comply without overly burdensome bureaucratic obstacles. Such a 
bill will safeguard our innovation, farmland, infrastructure, 
and critical technologies while fostering domestic investments.
    This hearing will hopefully help illuminate how CFIUS and 
an outbound investment regime could secure our Nation's vital 
national interests. I urge my colleagues to support an outbound 
investment bill and provide their input so that we can have 
stringent sanctions and transparent framework to protect our 
economic insecurity interests from all foreign threats. I yield 
back, and I now recognize the ranking member for her remarks.

 OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. JOYCE BEATTY, RANKING MEMBER OF THE 
    SUBCOMMITTEE ON NATIONAL SECURITY, ILLICIT FINANCE AND 
  INTERNATIONAL FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS, A U.S. REPRESENTATIVE 
                           FROM OHIO

    Mrs. Beatty. Good morning, and thank you, Mr. Chairman, for 
holding this hearing, and thank you to our witnesses for 
appearing here today to discuss investment security.
    The Committee on Foreign Investment in the United States, 
or CFIUS, plays a critical role in our national security 
framework, conducting reviews of direct investment transaction 
by foreign investors originating from both adversary and allied 
nations to identify potential national security risks. Although 
it is incredibly rare for CFIUS to recommend that the President 
block a transaction, only occurring 10 times to date, the 
committee's thorough vetting process is essential to ensure 
that foreign investment of all kinds in the United States do 
not endanger national security.
    Another critical area of focus is outbound investment, 
which I am sure we will talk about, flowing from the United 
States to foreign countries and companies of concern. The Biden 
Administration took a significant first step 2 years ago by 
establishing the Outbound Investment Security Program at 
Treasury, which screened certain U.S. investments in China 
involving sensitive technologies and products that pose an 
acute national security risk. While we are waiting to see what 
changes the current administration plans to make to the 
program, several actions taken by President Trump has raised 
serious concern.
    A recent high-profile case including TikTok and U.S. Steel 
have demonstrated that the President is willing to disregard 
CFIUS recommendations and, instead, leverage foreign investment 
transactions in unrelated trade negotiations, creating 
uncertainty for the private sector and a dangerous potential 
for abuse. Further, President Trump seems to be engaging in his 
own corrupt business deals with foreign investors. For example, 
Trump's stablecoin is being used by an Abu Dhabi investment 
firm to invest $2 billion into Binance, a crypto exchange that 
has pleaded guilty to money laundering and sanctions 
violations. Look, this type of transaction is exactly why CFIUS 
exists, and it is why we cannot afford to gut the very laws and 
resources that allows it to do its job. If my colleagues across 
the aisle are truly concerned about national security risk, 
they should be similarly outraged by the President's 
activities. Instead, they are trying to eliminate critical 
national security tools like the bipartisan--let me say that 
again--the bipartisan Corporate Transparency Act, which 
President Trump signed into law during his first term.
    Gutting the Corporate Transparency Act (CTA) will hinder 
CFIUS' ability to identify foreign threats by making it harder 
for the committee, the Outbound Security Program, financial 
institutions, and national security agencies to properly assess 
who truly owns or controls a corporate entity. We simply cannot 
play politics with our national security, and I think we will 
all agree on that. Democrats are committed to resisting efforts 
that would either undercut CFIUS or distort its purpose. I look 
forward to learning more about how our investment security 
framework is operating and exploring ways that we can 
strengthen and not weaken it, and thank you again to our 
witnesses. I look forward to our dialog and our questions with 
you, and, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
    Chairman Davidson. Thank you. Today we welcome the 
testimony of Mr. Jonathan Samford, President and CEO of Global 
Business Alliance; Mr. Brian Reissaus, Senior Advisor for 
National Security at Freshfields; Mr. Benjamin Joseloff, 
Partner at Cravath, Swaine, & Moore; and Dr. Sarah Bauerle 
Danzman, Associate Professor of International Studies at 
Indiana University. We thank each of you for taking your time 
to be here. Each of you will be recognized for 5 minutes to 
give an oral presentation of your testimony. Without objection, 
your written statements will be made part of the record.
    I also ask unanimous consent to enter the ICI statement 
into the record.
    Without objection.

    [The information referred to can be found in the appendix.]

    Chairman Davidson. Mr. Samford, you are now recognized for 
5 minutes for your oral statement.

 STATEMENT OF JONATHAN SAMFORD, PRESIDENT AND CHIEF EXECUTIVE 
               OFFICER, GLOBAL BUSINESS ALLIANCE

    Mr. Samford. Chairman Davidson, Ranking Member Beatty, 
members of the committee, thank you very much for the 
opportunity to be here with you today. I am Jonathan Samford, 
President and CEO of the Global Business Alliance (GBA). GBA is 
the premier advocacy voice of international companies in 
America. Our members represent about 200 of the most well-known 
international brands in the world that are globally 
headquartered overseas but are major U.S. employers in their 
own right. On average, these companies employ about 12,000 U.S. 
workers, and, importantly, all of them are headquartered in 
countries that are longtime friends and allies of the United 
States.
    Across America, more than 8 million workers earn a paycheck 
from a company that made a deliberate decision to invest and 
create jobs in the United States. Global investment is a key 
pillar of America's economic strength. International companies 
have invested over $5 trillion into the U.S. economy. They pay 
workers 7 percent more than the private sector average, drive 
12 percent of all private sector R&D, and produce nearly a 
quarter of all U.S. exports. Manufacturing is the largest 
sector for investment, growing 29 percent over the past 5 
years. In Ohio alone, given the representation of the Buckeye 
State, more than 320,000 Ohioans are employed by a global 
company, and half of that is in the manufacturing sector.
    This is not just about economics, though. It is also a 
strategic advantage. Seventy-five percent of all investment in 
the United States flows from just eight nations. These 
investments build local supply chains, fuel innovation, develop 
stronger workforces, and tie our allies' interests to our own. 
Meanwhile, Chinese direct investment in the United States is 
less than 1 percent in total and has declined since Congress, 
on a bipartisan basis, passed FIRRMA by about 15 percent. 
Global investment has long been a bipartisan priority. Every 
President in the past 50 years has reaffirmed America's 
commitment to open investment. Congress did the same through 
FIRRMA in 2018, ensuring that CFIUS robustly protects national 
security while keeping the U.S. open to trusted capital. Just 
last month, the House passed the Global Investment and American 
Jobs Act by unanimous support.
    The inbound business community strongly supports a vigilant 
national security-focused CFIUS process. CFIUS must stay 
squarely focused on genuine national security threats and not 
drift into broader industrial trade policy. When reviews become 
unpredictable, it deters precisely the kinds of investments 
that grow American jobs and American manufacturing. Updated 
public guidance, improved interagency coordination, and a fast-
track pathway, such as the known investor portal for trusted 
investors with proven compliance records, would streamline the 
low-risk reviews, reduce administrative burdens, and allow 
CFIUS to prioritize high-risk reviews, enhancing both 
efficiency and investor confidence. CFIUS protects both our 
national security and our economic competitiveness. These are 
complementary results that have been forged through decades of 
thoughtful bipartisan leadership.
    In that vein, I want to thank Chairman Hill, 
Representatives Barr, Auchincloss, and Strickland for leading 
the Global Investment and American Jobs Caucus here in the 
House, and for this committee for advancing policies that 
strengthen America's workers and communities. Thank you for 
this opportunity. I look forward to your questions.

    [The prepared statement of Mr. Samford follows:]
    
    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] 

    
    Chairman Davidson. Thank you, Mr. Samford. Mr. Reissaus, 
you are now recognized for 5 minutes for your oral statement.

   STATEMENT OF BRIAN REISSAUS, SENIOR ADVISOR FOR NATIONAL 
                  SECURITY, FRESHFIELDS US LLP

    Mr. Reissaus. Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member Beatty, members 
of the subcommittee, thank you for offering me the opportunity 
to appear before you today. My name is Brian Reissaus. I am a 
Senior Advisor at the law firm, Freshfields, in Washington, DC. 
My government experience, spanning roughly 15 years in three 
administrations, includes leading the executive branch's 
provision of technical assistance to Congress for the Foreign 
Investment Risk Review Modernization Act of 2018, serving as 
the senior career official for CFIUS from 2018 through 2023, 
and contributing to the development of the executive order that 
is the basis for the Outbound Investment Security Program.
    Before getting into the substance of my remarks, I want to 
say that the views I express here today are my own and not 
those of my employer or any clients of my employer, and I am 
not here representing the interests of any other party.
    I would like to offer some observations on U.S. investment 
security policy. It is important to note that foreign 
investment overwhelmingly benefits the United States through 
creating jobs, funding innovation, and fostering economic 
growth. It also bolsters our national security. I witnessed 
this firsthand throughout my government service. At the 
Department of Defense, I oversaw foreign-owned defense 
contractors that supply cutting-edge technologies to our war 
fighters, and at CFIUS, I reviewed transactions involving 
friendly foreign investors that provided capital that was 
essential to funding U.S. innovation and emerging technologies. 
This has all been possible because of the longstanding 
bipartisan U.S. open investment policy. However, Congress 
recognized that some foreign investment can pose national 
security risks to the United States. CFIUS serves as a critical 
safeguard against these risks. CFIUS does this through its 
singular focus on reviewing transactions for cognizable 
national security risks that could reasonably result from the 
transaction, which, under the law, requires CFIUS to identify 
credible evidence of a threat of vulnerability and the 
consequence. Certain principles of the CFIUS process are 
essential to maintaining an open investment environment while 
allowing CFIUS to fully resolve national security risks. These 
include statutory timelines that provide predictability to 
transaction parties, evidence-based decisions that require 
credible evidence that a transaction poses a national security 
risk.
    The tool of last resort, CFIUS only acts when there are no 
other adequate or appropriate authorities that can address the 
national security risk: proportionality, CFIUS' actions are 
tailored to the national security risk arising from the 
transaction, not issues unrelated to the proposed acquisition; 
confidentiality that encourages transparency from transaction 
parties and ensures CFIUS can conduct an apolitical national 
security analysis; and accountability, congressional oversight 
that ensures CFIUS operates consistent with its statute. This 
framework has allowed CFIUS to adapt to emerging national 
security risks while providing transaction parties confidence 
that their filings would be handled fairly and efficiently.
    The foreign investment landscape has shifted considerably 
since Congress passed FIRRMA in 2018. At the time, Chinese 
investment was at its peak, and CFIUS was grappling with an 
increasing number of transactions that raised national security 
risks, yet were outside of its jurisdiction. This is not the 
case today. According to the American Enterprise Institute, the 
People's Republic of China (PRC) spending here has been 
negligible since 2018. Chinese investment around the world was 
stable at a historically low level in 2024 and barely visible 
in the United States. Despite the drop in Chinese investment, 
the number of CFIUS filings withdrawn and refiled increased to 
historic heights from 2021 to 2023, exceeding the previous 
highs when Chinese investment was at its apex from 2016 to 
2018. One can infer from this data that our U.S. partners and 
allies have been increasingly impacted by delays in mitigation.
    As Congress did when it passed FIRRMA, changes to the U.S. 
investment security policy should go through a similarly 
rigorous process that is, one, based on evidence of a defined 
national security risk; two, assesses the impact that such 
changes will have on the investment that does not pose a risk 
to U.S. national security. The Outbound Investment Security 
Program could benefit from such a process. As currently 
structured, the regulations pose ambiguities that complicate 
compliance. Better alignment between the national security 
risks it is intended to solve and the definitions for covered 
transactions would provide much-needed clarity to the private 
sector. Given the negligible volume of Chinese investment into 
the United States today, any expansion of CFIUS' jurisdiction 
is more likely to disproportionately impact benign foreign 
investment. It could blunt CFIUS' effectiveness as a national 
security tool by reducing its ability to thoroughly review each 
transaction.
    Thank you for your interest in these issues, and I look 
forward to your questions.

    [The prepared statement of Mr. Reissaus follows:]
    
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    Chairman Davidson. Thank you, Mr. Reissaus. Mr. Joseloff, 
you are now recognized for 5 minutes for your oral statement.

  STATEMENT OF BENJAMIN JOSELOFF, PARTNER, CRAVATH, SWAINE & 
                           MOORE LLP

    Mr. Joseloff. Thank you. Chairman Davidson, Ranking Member 
Beatty, and distinguished members of the subcommittee, thank 
you for inviting me to testify today. It is an honor to join my 
fellow panel members in contributing to your work on U.S. 
investment security policy. My name is Ben Joseloff. I am a 
Partner at the law firm of Cravath, Swain & Moore. Today I am 
presenting my own views and not those of my firm or of any 
client of my firm. The perspectives I will offer today are 
informed by over 10 years of experience in both the public and 
private sectors working on matters relating to the Committee on 
Foreign investment in the United States, or CFIUS.
    The United States of America has long been known as one of 
the most welcoming economies for foreign direct investment. 
This is in large part because the U.S. Government, through 
administrations of both parties, has recognized the benefits 
that come with foreign capital, but not all foreign investment 
is benign. Malign actors can and do try to take advantage of 
our general openness by using foreign investment to harm U.S. 
national and economic security. Thus, the United States has had 
for 50 years a mechanism to address harmful foreign direct 
investment. That mechanism is CFIUS.
    CFIUS operates within and is a part of the U.S. open 
investment framework. This means that CFIUS should not be seen 
as an exception to U.S. open investment policy. Rather, in my 
view, CFIUS is best understood as a mechanism that enables and 
perpetuates our commitment to an open investment environment. I 
believe that support for a robust, well-resourced, and 
efficiently run CFIUS not only helps preserve U.S. national and 
economic security, but also enables the continuation of our 
Nation's longstanding bipartisan open investment policy.
    This is the theoretical underpinning of CFIUS, but how does 
CFIUS operate in practice? In my written testimony, I provide 
details regarding how the CFIUS process affects U.S. businesses 
and their foreign investors. The key takeaway is that the CFIUS 
process can result in noteworthy timing and economic friction 
in cross-border transactions, and this friction has real costs 
and consequences. Of course this is not necessarily 
inappropriate. As I noted earlier, CFIUS plays a critical role 
within the broader U.S. open investment framework, and some 
transaction costs are unavoidable in a system that relies on 
thorough, case-by-case assessments carried out by subject 
matter experts across the U.S. Government.
    To me, the real question then is the following: can we be 
confident that we have reduced the transaction costs imposed by 
the CFIUS process to those that are necessary and appropriate 
to protect U.S. national security? In my view, the short answer 
is not yet, but CFIUS is trying, and they are making good 
progress. The longer answer is that in my 10 years of CFIUS-
related experience, both in government and in private practice, 
my observation is that the individuals who administer the 
process are doing their best to accomplish their critical 
national security mission as efficiently as possible. This is 
true both for the dedicated career civil servants who undertake 
the day-to-day work of CFIUS as well as the political 
appointees who ultimately make the difficult decisions.
    To conclude, I know there are various legislative proposals 
relating to CFIUS the members of the subcommittee may be asked 
to consider. Rather than opining on any specific legislation, I 
would encourage members to ask two questions with respect to 
any CFIUS-related bill that crosses your desk. First, will the 
legislation help the individuals who administer the CFIUS 
process increase efficiency without harming U.S. national 
security? Second, if the legislation will create new economic 
friction, is that friction truly necessary in order for CFIUS 
to achieve its mission? With these questions as a guide, I 
believe that the members of the subcommittee will be to be well 
placed to ensure that we continue to have an inbound investment 
security regime that supports both American security and 
American prosperity, and that CFIUS will continue to be 
regarded as the global gold standard for the national security 
regulation of foreign direct investment.
    Thank you again for the opportunity to participate today. I 
look forward to your questions.

    [The prepared statement of Mr. Joseloff follows:]
    
    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] 
    
    
    Chairman Davidson. Thank you, Mr. Joseloff. Dr. Bauerle 
Danzman, you are now recognized for 5 minutes for your oral 
statement.

STATEMENT OF DR. SARAH BAUERLE DANZMAN, ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR OF 
     INTERNATIONAL STUDIES, INDIANA UNIVERSITY BLOOMINGTON

    Dr. Bauerle Danzman. Thank you, Chairman Davidson and 
Ranking Member Beatty, for inviting me to testify on evolving 
investment security issues of concern to the American people. 
It is an honor to speak with the subcommittee today. The views 
I express in my testimony are my own and do not necessarily 
reflect the views of Indiana University or of the Atlantic 
Council where I am a fellow.
    As Congress evaluates current national security regulation 
for inward and outbound investment, I encourage representatives 
to ensure that any additional congressional action aligns with 
the following five principles. First, investment security 
policy should be clear to U.S. companies and foreign investors. 
The compliance burden of investment regulation has increased 
tremendously in recent years. Investors need to understand what 
their obligations are and believe these restrictions serve a 
legitimate public good. Frequent updates to investment rules 
make the policy environment unstable and expectations for the 
future regulatory landscape uncertain. Retroactive application 
of law generates concern over future respect for property 
rights and should be avoided.
    Second, investment security should be consistently applied. 
Investors and companies should not be differentially treated 
based on personal relationships with or connections to 
administration officials. For CFIUS, this means parties before 
the committee should not receive favorable treatment if they 
are well connected to the administration or to a Member of 
Congress. For the Outbound Investment Security Program, this 
means that the process for receiving an exception to 
prohibition should be clearly publicized, subject to a rigorous 
regularized review process, and the outcome of such 
determination should be quickly notified to the public. In the 
absence of oversight, CFIUS and the Outbound Program could 
become the site of special dealing that is inconsistent with 
the rule of law or the foundations of a dynamic market-based 
economy.
    Third, investment security tools should be contained to a 
narrow set of clear national security concerns. Overregulation 
would reduce investment in the United States, negatively 
affecting jobs and innovation capacity. Congress should resist 
the urge to further expand CFIUS' authorities to address broad 
national interest concerns. It should also reaffirm that 
mitigation agreements should be proportional to identified 
risks and should only be used to address national security 
concerns rather than expansive economic competitiveness issues. 
Any outbound legislation should focus on national security 
risks associated with a narrow set of technologies for which 
the U.S. holds an innovation lead. The likely innovation costs 
of restricting outbound investment in other technologies is too 
high to entertain.
    Fourth, investment security policies should be 
collaborative. U.S. power benefits from centrality in global 
innovation, finance, trade, and diplomatic networks, and our 
strategies should function to further embed us in those 
networks rather than insulate us from them. Building 
multilateral support and coordination is necessary for 
effectively countering PRC efforts to gain access to Western-
developed dual-use technologies to modernize their military 
capabilities. Technology investment and know-how are very hard 
to control unilaterally. Acting multilaterally also reduces the 
cost of monitoring and enforcement, which saves U.S. taxpayer 
money and frees additional resources for investments in 
American families, workers, and communities.
    Finally, investment security policies should be curious. 
Many of the investment security policies that the United States 
has implemented in recent years are addressing problems for 
which there remains a great deal of uncertainty about the size 
of the concern and the cost of potential solutions. 
Consequently, policies in this area are risky. We have less 
certainty over their effect and their unintended consequences. 
Therefore, ongoing assessment of policy effectiveness is vital. 
Investment security policies should be subjected to cost-
benefit analysis at regular intervals to better understand the 
tradeoffs to economic dynamism and technological innovation 
that investment restrictions induce. If measures of innovation 
drop, Congress should be prepared to work with industry to 
better understand why and should be willing to reverse course 
if it becomes clear that a policy has failed or has 
unacceptable unintended consequences.
    Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I look forward to answering your 
questions.

    [The prepared statement of Dr. Bauerle Danzman follows:]
    
    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] 
    
    
    Chairman Davidson. Thank you very much. We will now turn to 
member questions. I now recognize myself for 5 minutes of 
questions.
    I support President Trump's February National Security 
Presidential Memorandum, which encourages foreign investment 
while protecting national security. Specifically, it states 
that ``CFIUS will be used to restrict Chinese investments in 
strategic U.S. sectors, like technology, critical 
infrastructure, healthcare, agriculture, energy and raw 
materials,'' and that ``The United States will protect our 
farmland and real estate near sensitive facilities, strengthen 
CFIUS' authority over greenfield investments, and restrict 
foreign adversary access to U.S. talent and operations in 
sensitive technologies.'' Mr. Reissaus, in your testimony, your 
opening statement, you said CFIUS only acts when other tools 
are not available. Would you concede that tariffs can be used 
for national security interests?
    Mr. Reissaus. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for the question. 
When CFIUS looks at a transaction and identifies a risk, its 
first step is, ultimately, to look at those other authorities 
that are available and then determine whether they can actually 
address that concern. That could be something as simple as 
looking at export controls to determine whether that is 
sufficient to address the transfer of a particular piece of 
technology, but it could also be to look at other economic 
tools that may relate to the national security risk.
    Chairman Davidson. One of those tools would be tariffs, 
right?
    Mr. Reissaus. During my time, I had not seen tariffs used 
as a potential consideration. However, I think tools that 
address broader strategic issues can be an effective measure to 
avoid transactions that do present concerns.
    Chairman Davidson. Clearly, President Trump views it as a 
national security thing, and when we design the tariffs, you 
have 232 and 302 and other provisions in tariffs because 
sometimes it is a very efficient tool. People could debate 
whether it should be used the way that it is being used, but 
clearly, it is a tool that is available, and I just think as we 
are looking at CFIUS reviews, it is worth considering. It may 
be a fast thing to do is get into a negotiation, use tariffs to 
get the attention, and get the underlying issue addressed. As 
we are looking at CFIUS, Mr. Samford, when your organization 
emphasizes the importance of foreign investments into our 
economy how have CFIUS' expanded reviews under FIRRMA impacted 
multinational companies' investment decisions in the United 
States?
    Mr. Samford. Thank you for the question, Mr. Chairman. As 
you are well aware, since 2018, international investment has 
actually increased precipitously from friends and allies in the 
United States. As I mentioned in my opening, eight countries 
constitute 75 percent of all investment in the United States; 
that is Japan, Canada, and European countries, all of them 
longtime friends and allies of the United States. The top 
investors in Ohio, for instance, reside from those countries as 
well. What we have seen through FIRRMA is that Chinese 
investment in the United States has dropped about 15 percent 
since then. The reviews are less through the CFIUS process 
around Chinese investment, as was mentioned earlier, but I 
think that companies continue to value the United States 
economy, America's workforce, and the opportunities to build 
and create things here in the United States.
    Chairman Davidson. Yes. We have certainly seen a brisk pace 
this year. Hopefully, we keep building on it and we do it 
efficiently so that we can get it done, and I think the 
tailoring that you have all referenced has got the attention, I 
think, in a bipartisan way. Mr. Reissaus, on the Outbound 
Investment Security Program, I strongly agree with you on how 
important clear definitions of covered transactions are in 
order to implement the program. Could you elaborate on how 
specific or narrow these definitions need to be for proper 
enforcement? For instance, what if a large corporation has some 
business that falls undercover transaction and some that does 
not? I mean, you can think about Amazon in the United States as 
Amazon Web Services (AWS). That might be considered sensitive 
if it was a Chinese investment, but you might do their air 
cargo business, and you are doing business with Amazon either 
way, so how do you parse that?
    Mr. Reissaus. Mr. Chairman, that is an excellent question, 
and I think that is the exact challenge that many private 
sector parties are dealing with right now under the Outbound 
Investment Security Program, which is trying to understand what 
activities may be captured, which ones are clearly the ones 
that the government is concerned about and needs to be 
addressed. I think the key thing that does need to happen with 
the Outbound Investment Security Program is for it to go 
through a process that Congress put FIRRMA through, and the key 
elements of that which allow FIRRMA to be successful in 
targeting the core national security issues is, first, defining 
what that is that needs to be solved. I think there is a lack 
of clarity in the private sector and amongst many to understand 
what exactly the problem is that is trying to be solved.
    Chairman Davidson. Yes, thank you, and I would submit that 
the Office of Foreign Assets Control (OFAC) does get pretty 
precise, so we will look at how we can do that. My time has 
expired, and I now recognize the ranking member for her 
questions.
    Mrs. Beatty. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you to the 
witnesses, and thank you, Mr. Samford, for acknowledging Ohio 
and the 300,000-some employees. I hope I get to talk to every 
one of them. We like numbers like that and people being 
employed.
    Let me go to my first question for you, Dr. Bauerle 
Danzman, and I am probably going to, if I have time, ask 
everybody else if they have an opinion on this. In your 
testimony, you address the need for consistency in the CFIUS 
review process. Can you address some of the concerns associated 
with President Trump's response to certain high-profile CFIUS 
cases, and what are the broader national security risk, which I 
will ask everybody else, of this kind of approach to investment 
security?
    Dr. Bauerle Danzman. Thank you, Ranking Member Beatty, for 
your question. I would start by saying that national security 
is not a bargaining chip in any trade negotiation. If there is 
a national security problem, you need to address the national 
security problem, and it should not be traded away for other 
unrelated issues. The second thing I will say without getting 
into specifics of any deal is that, in general, and I did work 
on the committee in 2019 and 2020, that in CFIUS world, any day 
in which a CFIUS transaction is in the news is a bad day for 
CFIUS. We want the committee to be able to employ a rigorous, 
fact-based assessment of every single transaction, and the 
point of the CFIUS process is to do that rather than employ a 
politicized review of the transaction. We should try as much as 
possible to keep the committee's work at the working level 
until it rises up to a Presidential decision, and we should 
refrain from situations in which elected officials are opining 
on deals before the committee before they are determined.
    Mrs. Beatty. Thank you. Anybody else have a comment that 
they want to add on the broader national security risk of this 
kind of approach to investment security?
    [No response.]
    Mrs. Beatty. Interesting. Experts in it, you have no 
comment either way?
    [No response.]
    Mrs. Beatty. Let me go to my next question. I will come 
back to you, Dr. Bauerle Danzman. As you know, the Outbound 
Investment Security Program, which has been active for 6 
months, we do not have any reporting from Treasury on that 
process yet. What factors or data would you expect to see 
demonstrate that the program has been successful, or what 
questions should this committee ask of Treasury regarding the 
activities?
    Dr. Bauerle Danzman. Of course, we are in very early days 
of the Outbound Program. I think when you think about the sorts 
of information that you would like to have Treasury provide, 
that would be information on what types of transactions are 
going before the committee. Actually--excuse me--for Outbound, 
that is a notification and a prohibition, so understanding how 
many transactions are being notified, what is the process of 
looking for non-notified transactions that should have been 
prohibitive, have any been found. As the program matures, 
understanding how this is affecting things like innovation 
capacity is really important, so doing reviews over time about 
what is happening to the innovation ecosystem around these 
technologies that are scoped into review is an important thing 
that the committee should be assessing.
    Mrs. Beatty. Thank you. Let us try this again with the 
other members. Is there anything that this committee should be 
asking of Treasury regarding activities?
    Mr. Reissaus. One recommendation I would have is trying to 
understand the number of transactions that Treasury is looking 
into from an enforcement matter, and the percentage of those 
that end up being either failure to notifies or were violations 
of the prohibition. I think that would provide a clear 
indication of what is actually occurring, or is this creating a 
significant burden on parties on the enforcement side, despite 
the lack of evidence of noncompliance.
    Mrs. Beatty. Thank you. I yield back, Mr. Chairman.
    Chairman Davidson. Thank you Mrs. Beatty. I now recognize 
the gentleman from Oklahoma, Mr. Lucas, who is also the 
Chairman of the Monetary Policy Task Force.
    Mr. Lucas. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I would like to 
start with Mr. Joseloff and Mr. Reissaus. In your experience, 
would it be helpful to finally place the Secretary of 
Agriculture as a permanent member on CFIUS for ag-related 
transactions, like my bill, the Agricultural Risk Review Act 
would? How does having subject matter expertise in specific 
industries help inform the CFIUS review process?
    Mr. Joseloff. I am happy to start. Thank you for the 
question. I think it is absolutely critical that the Department 
of Agriculture be involved in CFIUS reviews of transactions 
that involve agriculture or food security issues. In my 
experience, when I was serving in government, the Department of 
Agriculture was involved in transactions that raised those 
issues. I think the committee does a good job of recognizing 
the different subject matter expertise around the U.S. 
Government and calling in that expertise, as appropriate, in 
reviewing transactions.
    Mr. Reissaus. I would agree with Mr. Joseloff. In my 
experience, the Department of Agriculture not only was 
consulted on those transactions, but often served as a co-lead, 
so certified to Congress at conclusion of those deals. So, it 
is very important that the United States Department of 
Agriculture (USDA) is included in those matters, and I think I 
understand there was a memorandum of understanding (MOU) signed 
between the Department of Treasury and the Department of 
Agriculture that memorializes the process to ensure that 
continues.
    Mr. Lucas. Absolutely, and I thank you both for those 
comments, and my bill passed the House this month, and based on 
your testimony, our friends of U.S. Senate will actually take 
it up. Mr. Reissaus, Mr. Samford has recommended a fast-track 
pathway for trusted investors to go through the CFIUS review 
process. What guardrails would be appropriate for a program 
like that so that we are re-incentivizing the right type of 
investment?
    Mr. Reissaus. Thank you, sir, for your question. I think 
the first one is the committee needs the ability to still 
assess both the threat, so receiving the intelligence 
community's assessment of the particular investor, and they 
still need to be able to look at the context of the deal 
itself. What is the U.S. business, and what does it do that is 
important for national security so that it can act if it needs 
to? I think what needs to be focused on, though, is how do you 
streamline the process so that the committee is focused on 
those narrow issues and is not looking into unrelated matters; 
so, how can it be more targeted in the questions that it poses 
to parties? How can it streamline the submissions of 
information so that can happen more quickly, and how can it 
improve its decision making so that those timelines are much 
shorter to then facilitate that benign investment?
    Mr. Lucas. Absolutely. Mr. Samford, in your view, are 
national security and an open investment climate inherently at 
odds, or can we encourage foreign direct investment without 
compromising our security interest and why is it important that 
we have policies that support both of those values?
    Mr. Samford. Absolutely, Congressman. Thank you for your 
leadership in this space. I think they are complementary 
objectives, and I think CFIUS is a good example. Over its 
transformation since its inception in the 1970s to today, 
Congress has met the challenge through the framework of CFIUS 
as threats have emerged and changed, and I think your 
leadership in this space is reflective of that with your 
legislation. I think that it is important to remember that the 
vast majority of investment into the United States comes from 
longtime friends and allies, and it is into sectors and 
businesses that are wholly unrelated to national security. 
These are great-paying jobs, many of them in the manufacturing 
sector. About 40 percent of all foreign direct investment (FDI) 
jobs are in U.S. manufacturing, and so having the ability to 
provide good-quality jobs, high-paying jobs that do not require 
mountain of debt and college debt is a benefit. One of the 
things that international companies bring to the U.S. is not 
just the capital they need to operate here, but they also bring 
world-class know-how; importing that best practice is not only 
beneficial to the companies, but also the communities where 
they operate.
    Mr. Lucas. Thank you, and thank you to the panel, and I 
yield back, Mr. Chairman.
    Chairman Davidson. Thank you, Mr. Lucas. The gentleman from 
California, Mr. Liccardo, is now recognized for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Liccardo. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I represent a 
significant portion of Silicon Valley, and we have gotten an 
awful lot of folks who are very frustrated the CFIUS process 
and would like to see many reforms aligned with what has been 
discussed here, so I appreciate the testimony of everyone here. 
Particularly, as we think about consistency and some of the 
challenges Mr. Joseloff referred to with regard to defining 
jurisdiction, I understand it is something that consumes an 
awful lot of time and legal analysis, and that creates a lot of 
sand in gears. I guess the question I have is, really, are 
there specific proposals out there, either that have already 
been introduced or language that you see organizations working 
on, like the Land Council or others, that could help us better 
define jurisdiction so at least parties can get to the question 
more quickly of whether this is governed by CFIUS or not?
    Mr. Joseloff. Thank you very much for the question. As I 
said in the written testimony that I submitted, I think one of 
the key improvements that could be made to the kind of 
jurisdictional process would be a review of the definition of 
``critical technology,'' specifically as it applies in kind of 
mandatory filings, to see if there is a way to reduce the 
burden on companies of having to perform export control 
analysis, which can be timely and costly on things that they do 
not actually export. So, that is one concrete idea.
    Mr. Liccardo. Thank you, and do any of the other witnesses 
have any specific suggestions?
    Mr. Reissaus. Not necessarily from a legislative 
standpoint, but I think, from my experience, especially in the 
government, I did recognize that there were challenges in the 
venture capital (VC) space because of the need for companies to 
receive capital quickly. I think focusing on, whether it is 
even from congressional oversight, to ensure that the committee 
is processing transactions quickly so that, essentially, benign 
capital through VC investment can occur within the timelines 
that are often very short for those types of transactions, is a 
way to kind of help ensure that the committee is not 
unnecessarily impeding. I think that important investment.
    Mr. Liccardo. Thank you. I am sorry. Doctor?
    Dr. Bauerle Danzman. I will just add as well----
    Mr. Liccardo. Yes.
    Dr. Bauerle Danzman [continuing]. that outreach is very 
important here. Treasury already does outreach to the venture 
community, but I think continued outreach and really 
emphasizing educating venture on their obligations is an 
important part of the puzzle here.
    Mr. Liccardo. Thank you. Dr. Bauerle Danzman, since you 
just spoke, I am curious to follow up on the concerns about 
consistency. Are there specific examples under this 
administration where you are seeing considerations outside of 
national security playing into a negotiation?
    Dr. Bauerle Danzman. I am not privy to the inside 
negotiations on CFIUS, and I hesitate to opine too directly on 
specific transactions, but I do think that there is a sense 
that, in some transactions, there has been a desire to also put 
in place obligations that have more to do with economic 
competitiveness as opposed to national security specifically, 
and the use of mitigation agreements that have a lot of various 
components to it that seem quite far away from national 
security, especially if a transaction is not related to an 
entity that is directly integrated into the defense industrial 
supply chain. I would be worried and cautious about those kinds 
of mitigation terms.
    Mr. Liccardo. Doctor, I know a colleague of yours at the 
Atlantic Council wrote a piece back in February specifically 
expressing concern about limitations in cross-border 
investments imposed by the NSPM in this administration. Are 
there other elements that you would point to, other concerns in 
addition to the ones you just raised?
    Dr. Bauerle Danzman. With respect to inbound or outbound? I 
am sorry.
    Mr. Liccardo. In this case, well, I guess it was cross-
border, so that would be either.
    Dr. Bauerle Danzman. Yes. I think that there are two 
things. First is that we should be really cautious about 
putting too many restrictions on outbound investment in 
technologies for which the U.S. is not at the cutting edge 
because by investing abroad, that is a way for us to bring back 
technology to the United States that is important and that we 
could use.
    Mr. Liccardo. Thank you, Doctor.
    Chairman Davidson. Thank you, Mr. Liccardo. The gentleman 
from Kentucky, the Chairman of the Subcommittee on Financial 
Institutions, Mr. Barr, is now recognized for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Barr. I want to start by picking up right where Mr. 
Liccardo left off and where Ranking Member Beatty, where she 
was in her line of questioning about the importance of keeping 
the CFIUS process and a prospective outbound regime 
depoliticized, and that is precisely why I was so concerned 
about the prior administration's politicization of the Nippon 
Steel deal. I am respectful of the fact that the ranking member 
represents Ohio where Cleveland-Cliffs is, but this was a deal 
that was highly politicized right before a national election 
where the United Steelworkers came into the Oval Office and 
helped the prior President kill a very beneficial investment 
that advanced American national security.
    Remember, Nippon Steel is a very technologically advanced 
steel company domiciled in an ally nation: Japan. This was an 
investment that was providing competition and preventing a 
monopoly in the United States on steelmaking. It strengthened 
U.S. Steel and enhanced U.S. national security. The fact that 
CFIUS did a rigorous re-review away from politics, made the 
correct recommendation, and then the President followed the 
career advice of CFIUS was a rectification of a politicization 
in the previous administration. I think the points made by my 
friends on the other side of the aisle of keeping politics out 
is very, very important, and I think we should take a lesson 
from the politicization of CFIUS from the prior administration 
here. I appreciate the current administration fixing that.
    Let me ask a question about outbound because we should 
learn from the virtues of CFIUS and also maybe some of the 
shortcomings of CFIUS as we work on an outbound regime. Mr. 
Reissaus, let me ask you, last year, the Select Committee on 
the Strategic Competition with China found that five venture 
capital firms funneled more than $1.9 billion to AI companies 
supporting China's human rights abuses and military 
modernization. At least $1.2 billion went into the PRC 
semiconductor industry. Clear controls are needed in respect to 
outbound investments into Chinese entities, and that is why I 
appreciate President Trump's National Security Memorandum, 
America First Investment Policy, and it is why I introduced the 
Fight China Act, which takes both an entity-and sensitive-
technologies-based approach. Do you agree that using all of the 
tools in the toolbox--time-tested sanctions and forward-looking 
prohibitions on sensitive technologies--is the best way to 
ensure we are spreading the net wide enough to prohibit 
investments that progress Chinese military and surveillance 
ambitions, but not too much to impede benign and beneficial 
outbound investment?
    Mr. Reissaus. Thank you, Congressman, and appreciate the 
question. It is an important one, and I think the answer to 
understand whether or not you are using all of the tools 
necessary is first understanding what is the problem that needs 
to be solved. Is it the fact of an investment, or is it, I 
think, what President Biden's order was attempting to address, 
which was smart money? I think once we can understand what that 
is, the appropriate tool or tools will then I think flow from 
that, which is, is it a sanctions-based approach, an entities-
based approach, or is it a transactional approach as was taken 
by the Biden Administration.
    Mr. Barr. Mr. Samford, as a fellow Kentuckian, it is no 
surprise that a Centre College graduate has risen to such 
influence as you, so congratulations on your new position. You 
are going to do a great job there advocating for beneficial 
foreign investment in the United States that makes the United 
States competitive. As we think about the outbound investment 
regime, how can we make it easier for U.S. investors in terms 
of making these decisions through a red light/green light 
system easier than maybe even CFIUS is for companies to 
navigate the CFIs process? How important is it to have a red 
light/green light clarity as opposed to uncertainty that 
sometimes comes with CFIUS?
    Mr. Samford. Thank you for that question. To be succinct, I 
think CFIUS provides a nice framework. CFIUS is designed to 
look at specific threats and specific circumstances. I think 
those same principles could be applied to the outbound. 
Obviously, the Global Business Alliance, we represent U.S. 
subsidiaries. Most of our focus is on the inbound business, the 
insourcing of jobs to the United States. Very few of our 
companies outsource or are investing abroad from the subsidiary 
here in the United States, but I think for those that are U.S. 
companies investing abroad, CFIUS provides a framework in that 
it looks at deals on a case-by-case basis, looking for specific 
threats and working to mitigate those specific concerns.
    Mr. Barr. Thank you. I yield.
    Chairman Davidson. Thank you, Mr. Barr. The gentleman from 
Illinois, who is the Ranking Member of the Financial 
Institutions Subcommittee, Mr. Foster is now recognized for 5 
minutes.
    Mr. Foster. Thank you, Mr. Chair, and I appreciate the 
bipartisan concern over trying to depoliticize the things that 
ought to be purely national security concerns. I think it is a 
very useful principle, and I look forward to my colleagues' 
public comments on, say, the tariff thing of Canadian steel and 
aluminum, which was done on allegedly national security 
grounds. It is something that we will have to continue talking 
about, and I think, in the end, Congress is going to have to be 
more explicit, given the behavior of the current 
administration.
    Let us see. One specific thing that came up, are China's 
capabilities in, say, integrated circuit manufacture, limited 
in any way by the amount of capital, or is it simply technology 
that limits them right now, because my feeling, it is just 
technology. They are putting in so much capital that they do 
not know how to spend it sensibly. Does anyone agree or 
disagree with that?
    Ms. Bauerle Danzman. I would say that China is very good at 
the extensive margin and less good at the intensive margin, and 
so, yes, they can throw a lot of capital at a problem. One of 
the points of the Outbound Program was that, along with 
capital, at least outbound foreign direct investment and 
venture capital comes with know-how and technology alongside 
that capital. That is really what China wants from U.S. capital 
markets and U.S. companies, and that is the reason why outbound 
was focused----
    Mr. Foster. Sure.
    Dr. Bauerle Danzman [continuing]. not on portfolio flows.
    Mr. Foster. Yes. No, I understand. We should keep our eyes 
on the technology. It is not money that limits Chinese progress 
in many things. Let us see. Several members have emphasized the 
need for technical expertise both inside CFIUS and in the 
agencies it partners with. Now, do you believe that the recent 
attacks on civil servants, generally, and the steep budget cuts 
and staff of CFIUS member agencies are going to support the 
efforts of this, or is it going to be a negative in recruiting 
people going forward? Comments from anyone? Dr. Bauerle 
Danzman, I guess.
    Dr. Bauerle Danzman. I will start by saying that it is 
always hard to attract subject matter experts in emerging 
technologies to work in the U.S. Government, and during my time 
on the committee, that was a concern that came up often. We 
need to do more to attract those subject matter experts to be 
willing to bring their gifts, bring their talents and their 
expertise to the U.S. Government.
    Mr. Foster. Any other comments?
    Mr. Reissaus. I would like to point back to FIRRMA, and I 
think Congress did two really important things in 2018 that 
greatly expanded the committee's ability to address this issue. 
One is it provided direct hire authority so the committee and 
members could directly recruit these types of people, and two, 
it provided significant resources to do that. Over the years, 
what I saw was, one, the committee could leverage expertise 
from individuals within the Department of Defense that are very 
familiar with sensitive technologies, experts and Ph.D.s at 
National Labs but what you were seeing and I think you continue 
to see is, there are more technical experts, Ph.D.s that work 
in, for example, the department of Treasury because of these 
resources that Congress provided.
    Mr. Foster. Yes. I am very familiar with National Labs, 
having worked there for 25 years, and I can tell you they are 
hemorrhaging talent because of the actions of this 
administration. It is really bad, and when you reach out to 
partner organizations, you will find in many instances that the 
experts you used to deal with there have quit in disgust. It is 
really bad out there, and at least, for sure, in the Department 
of Energy that I am very familiar with.
    Now, Dr. Bauerle Danzman, the U.S. has long been an 
attractive location for foreign investment. I believe this is, 
in large part, due to our stable economy and financial markets, 
talented workforce, and commitment to promoting fair and 
orderly business dealing. The U.S. has been also historically a 
leader in anticorruption efforts. The Corporate Transparency 
Act and the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act are two pieces of 
legislation that really aim to crack down on corruption and 
illicit finance but since taking office, President Trump has 
demonstrated his willingness to backtrack on anticorruption 
efforts and rolling back on enforcement of both the CTA and the 
Foreign Corrupt Practices Act (FCPA). Is this going to cause 
long-term problems for the enthusiasm for just investment in 
the United States?
    Dr. Bauerle Danzman. If we are talking specifically about 
the CTA, I think that the CTA would provide really important 
information to investment screening professionals so that we 
could actually move forward with review, including by 
increasing the pace of an ultimate beneficial owner (UBO) 
discovery and so forth.
    Chairman Davidson. The gentleman's time has expired. I 
would ask for further comments to be submitted for the record.
    Chairman Davidson. The gentlewoman from California, Mrs. 
Kim, is now recognized for 5 minutes.
    Mrs. Kim. Thank you, Chairman Davidson and Ranking Member 
Beatty, for holding today's hearing. Thank you, witnesses, for 
joining us.
    Foreign direct investment has been a key part of making 
America one of the greatest countries in the world, and it has 
ensured the Americans remain employed, and FDI-related 
employments in the United States is really highest in the State 
of California with 15 percent related to that. I just 
appreciate the FDIs coming into our country, but we also want 
to also ensure that our American direct investments going 
abroad is also protected. None of that could occur without the 
balanced role that the Committee on Foreign Investment in the 
United States plays in shielding national security while still 
facilitating our foreign investment.
    First question to you, Mr. Joseloff. For those who have not 
gone through that CFIUS process, could you detail how that 
process works and what kind of information companies are 
expected to provide?
    Mr. Joseloff. Thank you, yes. The process usually starts at 
the very earliest stages of a cross-border transaction with the 
parties thinking about whether their transaction would be 
within the jurisdiction of CFIUS. If so, whether it would 
trigger a mandatory filing requirement, or if the parties are 
at liberty to choose whether to file voluntarily, and then, 
ultimately, they have to think about will their transaction 
likely raise national security concerns. If they do file with 
CFIUS, either because they have to or because they have chosen 
to do so voluntarily, the committee requires a wide range of 
information from both the foreign investor and the U.S. 
business. That information on the foreign investor side touches 
on who are the ultimate owners of the company, what is their 
business, where are they located, what connections do they have 
to other countries. On the U.S. business side, it looks at what 
type of technology do they have--do they have government 
contracts, where are their facilities located--a whole range of 
information on both sides trying to get at this question of 
does a national security concern arise from the transaction.
    Mrs. Kim. Thank you. I want to do a follow up question to 
you, Mr. Samford, and ask, what do you see the Known Investor 
Pilot Program fitting into the CFIUS mandate of balancing 
national security while securing the greater investments from 
our allies and partners?
    Mr. Samford. Thank you for that question, Congresswoman. I 
think that this has tremendous potential. That was one of the 
facets of FIRRMA, when it was passed in 2018, was to create a 
mechanism for those that are frequent filers of CFIUS to be 
able to expedite the process. There have been a couple of 
iterations on that. This proposal, I think, is still being 
worked through in terms of what it will look like, but I think 
anything we can do to ensure that resources are used 
efficiently, that is to say that CFIUS is focused on the 
highest-risk transactions, and where you have well-established, 
well-known investors, frequent investors, that those can be 
handled efficiently.
    Mrs. Kim. Improvements like that Known Investment Program 
are what we need to continue to see CFIUS to ensure there is 
strong foreign investments in national security. I fear that 
under the previous administration, we saw the mission of CFIUS 
thrown to the side, and, instead, the committee was close to 
becoming a political tool. How does U.S. become less 
competitive for foreign investments since CFIUS become a 
political tool?
    Mr. Samford. There is no doubt that the world watches what 
happens with CFIUS reviews, and I think you are referencing the 
Nippon Steel-U.S. Steel acquisition. That was a situation where 
you had a well-known investor company that is operating in the 
United States, from our largest country, investing in Japan, a 
country with whom we have a mutual defense treaty. I think that 
deal was largely handled outside of the CFIUS process where you 
had the previous administration weighing in prior to a formal 
review taking place.
    Mrs. Kim. Thank you. I do want to make a last comment and 
highlight the Outbound Investment Security Program. When 
President Xi Jinping first rose to power in China, he stated 
that the Chinese Communist Party's (CCP's) foundation within 
the private sector was weak, and he outlined an economic 
philosophy where private sector existed to carry out the 
party's work and enhance the party's philosophy. I just wanted 
to point that out because in 2017, nearly three-quarters of 
private enterprises had an established CCP cell, and by 2021, 
the CCP took complete coverage of all 500 of the Nation's 
largest firms. As we consider investment security, it is 
important that we not just look at the investment dollars that 
are coming into America, but also the dollars going out to 
China, so----
    Chairman Davidson. The gentlelady's time has expired.
    Mrs. Kim [continuing]. I just wanted to make that point, 
and thank you so much for allowing me to go over time, and I 
yield back.
    Chairman Davidson. The gentleman from Texas and also the 
Chairman of the Small Business Committee, Mr. Williams is now 
recognized for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Williams of Texas. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank 
all of you for being here today. As the global economy becomes 
more competitive, especially in advanced technologies like AI 
and semiconductors, American investors are trying to position 
the capital where it matters most. Under the Biden 
Administration's Outbound Investment Rule, U.S. firms are now 
required to self-determine if a transaction might raise 
national security concerns without a clear guidance or a 
published list of restricted entities. This creates legal 
uncertainty, compliance risk, and could drive up the cost of 
doing business abroad. Meanwhile, state-backed competitors from 
China and the Middle East faced none of those constraints and 
are aggressively expanding. Mr. Reissaus, if a Texas-based 
investor wants to put capital into a tech firm overseas to stay 
globally competitive, how do these new outbound rules impact 
that decision, and are we at risk of forcing American investors 
to sit on the sidelines where others move in?
    Mr. Reissaus. Congressman, thank you for your question, and 
I think the challenge with the Outbound Investment Security 
Program, as it has currently been constructed, is it did not 
fully account for those types of cost considerations when the 
rules went into place. So, I think it is really important that 
a policy process, and one that Congress could lead, could 
consider these types of issues to ensure that the cost of 
implementing this type of regime does not make our businesses 
or U.S. investors less competitive in the long run.
    Mr. Williams of Texas. Thank you. When U.S. investors 
participate in overseas ventures, such as emerging 
technologies, they often bring more than capital. They bring 
standards, accountability, and transparency to markets that 
would otherwise fall under the influence of authoritarian 
regimes. Again, we see that under the Biden Administration's 
outbound investment framework, we may unintentionally undermine 
this leverage. We have already seen U.S. firms spin off or walk 
away from foreign investments that once helped shape tech 
ecosystems, and in that vacuum, others, like Saudi Arabia and 
China, are stepping in and aligning themselves in markets with 
their own values and strategic objectives. Again, Mr. Reissaus, 
with the outbound rules tightening, are we giving up our 
ability to influence the standards, culture, and direction of 
foreign tech firms, and letting regimes like China and Saudi 
Arabia take that seat at the table?
    Mr. Reissaus. I think that is another key cost, which is 
the ability for the U.S. to project its values into businesses 
when that is restricted. I think another piece of that is also 
our ability to learn things from those investments. I think a 
lot of investors are able to bring expertise back or get access 
to technology, and that is equally potentially lost depending 
on how proud the regime is.
    Mr. Williams of Texas. One more question. Texas plays a 
massive role in U.S. energy security, as we know, from refining 
capacity and export terminals to pipeline systems and electric 
grid infrastructure. Those sites are critical not just for the 
State, but for the entire country's energy independence. With 
foreign-backed firms seeking to acquire assets or real estate 
near these facilities, the threat is real. I have it in my 
district. I see it. As our adversaries become more 
sophisticated in exploiting economic access points, we need to 
ensure our investment screening tools are capable of 
identifying and acting on those risks early, largely when the 
infrastructure in question supports the national defense and 
economic resilience. Mr. Reissaus again, how has CFIUS adapted 
to the growing risk of foreign actors seeking strategic 
footholds in our energy sector?
    Mr. Reissaus. Thank you, Congressman, for your question. I 
think, first, in my experience, energy security has been a 
critical area of concern that the committee has focused on, 
and, in fact, the Department of Energy wields a significant 
number of transactions to look at that specific issue. So, 
trying to assess whether in any particular deal the transaction 
may pose a risk, whether to energy production, resource 
extraction, or even present vulnerabilities to critical energy 
infrastructure, whether it is supply of power or distribution 
of power. So, the Department of Energy (DOE), when it looks at 
this, it is obviously looking for problematic investors, but 
are trying to assess whether the transaction could result in 
vulnerabilities being inserted into those types of assets and 
protecting against that. The Department of Defense also will 
look at those deals closely to assess whether or not proximity 
to defense facilities or test ranges is also factored in when a 
foreign investor acquires, say, an oil field and is looking to 
do resource extraction.
    Mr. Williams of Texas. Thank you for that, and with that, I 
yield my remaining time back.
    Chairman Davidson. Thank you, Mr. Williams. I would like to 
thank all our witnesses for your testimony today.
    Without objection, all members will have 5 legislative days 
to submit additional written questions to the chairman for the 
record. The questions will be forwarded to the witnesses for 
response. The witnesses, if you get them, please respond no 
later than August 21.

    [The information referred to can be found in the appendix.]

    Chairman Davidson. This hearing stands adjourned.

    [Whereupon, at 1:07 p.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.]


      
      
      
      
      
      
      
      

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