    [House Hearing, 119 Congress]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]

                      RESTORING INTEGRITY AND SECURITY TO
                                THE VISA PROCESS

    =======================================================================

                                    HEARING

                                   BEFORE THE

        SUBCOMMITTEE ON IMMIGRATION INTEGRITY, SECURITY, AND ENFORCEMENT

                           COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY

                         U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                        ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS

                                 FIRST SESSION

                                   __________

                            WEDNESDAY, JUNE 25, 2025

                                   __________

                               Serial No. 119-28

                                   __________

             Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary

            [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

                   Available via: http://judiciary.house.gov

                     U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
    60-840                    WASHINGTON : 2025

                           COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY

                            JIM JORDAN, Ohio, Chair

    DARRELL ISSA, California             JAMIE RASKIN, Maryland, Ranking
    ANDY BIGGS, Arizona                      Member
    TOM McCLINTOCK, California           JERROLD NADLER, New York
    THOMAS P. TIFFANY, Wisconsin         ZOE LOFGREN, California
    THOMAS MASSIE, Kentucky              STEVE COHEN, Tennessee
    CHIP ROY, Texas                      HENRY C. ``HANK'' JOHNSON, Jr.,
    SCOTT FITZGERALD, Wisconsin              Georgia
    BEN CLINE, Virginia                  ERIC SWALWELL, California
    LANCE GOODEN, Texas                  TED LIEU, California
    JEFFERSON VAN DREW, New Jersey       PRAMILA JAYAPAL, Washington
    TROY E. NEHLS, Texas                 J. LUIS CORREA, California
    BARRY MOORE, Alabama                 MARY GAY SCANLON, Pennsylvania
    KEVIN KILEY, California              JOE NEGUSE, Colorado
    HARRIET M. HAGEMAN, Wyoming          LUCY McBATH, Georgia
    LAUREL M. LEE, Florida               DEBORAH K. ROSS, North Carolina
    WESLEY HUNT, Texas                   BECCA BALINT, Vermont
    RUSSELL FRY, South Carolina          JESUS G. ``CHUY'' GARCIA, Illinois
    GLENN GROTHMAN, Wisconsin            SYDNEY KAMLAGER-DOVE, California
    BRAD KNOTT, North Carolina           JARED MOSKOWITZ, Florida
    MARK HARRIS, North Carolina          DANIEL S. GOLDMAN, New York
    ROBERT F. ONDER, Jr., Missouri       JASMINE CROCKETT, Texas
    DEREK SCHMIDT, Kansas
    BRANDON GILL, Texas
    MICHAEL BAUMGARTNER, Washington
                                     ------

                SUBCOMMITTEE ON IMMIGRATION INTEGRITY, SECURITY,
                                AND ENFORCEMENT

                       TOM McCLINTOCK, California, Chair

    ANDY BIGGS, Arizona                  PRAMILA JAYAPAL, Washington,
    TOM TIFFANY, Wisconsin                   Ranking Member
    CHIP ROY, Texas                      JERROLD NADLER, New York
    JEFF VAN DREW, New Jersey            J. LUIS CORREA, California
    TROY NEHLS, Texas                    MARY GAY SCANLON, Pennsylvania
    BARRY MOORE, Alabama                 DEBORAH K. ROSS, North Carolina
    WESLEY HUNT, Texas                   JESUS G. ``CHUY'' GARCIA, Illinois
    RUSSELL FRY, South Carolina          JASMINE CROCKETT, Texas
    GLENN GROTHMAN, Wisconsin            ZOE LOFGREN, California
    BRAD KNOTT, North Carolina           STEVE COHEN, Tennessee
    ROBERT F. ONDER, Missouri            Vacant
    DEREK SCHMIDT, Kansas                Vacant
    BRANDON GILL, Texas                  Vacant

                   CHRISTOPHER HIXON, Majority Staff Director
                      JULIE TAGEN, Minority Staff Director
                                C O N T E N T S

                                  ----------

                            Wednesday, June 25, 2025
                               OPENING STATEMENTS

                                                                       Page

    The Honorable Tom McClintock, Chair of the Subcommittee on
      Immigration Integrity, Security, and Enforcement from the State
      of California..................................................     1
    The Honorable Pramila Jayapal, Ranking Member of the Subcommittee
      on Immigration Integrity, Security, and Enforcement from the
      State of Washington............................................     4
    The Honorable Jamie Raskin, Ranking Member of the Committee on
      the Judiciary from the State of Maryland.......................     5

                                   WITNESSES

    Jessica M. Vaughan, Director, Policy Studies, Center for
      Immigration Studies
      Oral Testimony.................................................     8
      Prepared Testimony.............................................    11
    Simon R. Hankinson, Senior Research Fellow, Border Security and
      Immigration Center, The Heritage Foundation
      Oral Testimony.................................................    23
      Prepared Testimony.............................................    25
    Alex Nowrasteh, Vice President, Economic and Social Policy
      Studies, Cato Institute
      Oral Testimony.................................................    36
      Prepared Testimony.............................................    38
    Cody M. Brown, Managing Attorney, Codias Law
      Oral Testimony.................................................    54
      Prepared Testimony.............................................    56

              LETTERS, STATEMENTS, ETC. SUBMITTED FOR THE HEARING

    All materials submitted for the record by the Subcommittee on
      Immigration Integrity, Security, and Enforcement are listed
      below..........................................................   215

    Materials submitted by the Honorable Pramila Jayapal, Ranking
      Member of the Subcommittee on Immigration Integrity, Security,
      and Enforcement from the State of Washington, for the record
        A press release entitled, ``ICE Arrests 11 Iranian Nationals
            Illegally in the U.S. Over the Weekend,'' Jun. 24, 2025,
            U.S. Department of Homeland Security
        An article entitled, ``Hundreds of international doctors due
            to start medical residencies are in visa limbo,'' Jun.
            24, 2025, NBC News
        A report entitled, ``Entry/Exit Overstay Report: Fiscal Year
            2023 Report to Congress,'' Aug. 5, 2024, U.S. Customs and
            Border Protection, U.S. Department of Homeland Security
        A report entitled, ``U.S. Citizenship and Immigration
            Services (USCIS): Operations and Issues for Congress,''
            Apr. 5, 2024, Congressional Research Service
    Materials submitted by the Honorable Andy Biggs, a Member of the
      Committee on the Judiciary from the State of Arizona, for the
      record
        An article entitled, ``What we know about the visa obtained
            by Egyptian man who injured a dozen people in Colorado,''
            Jun. 4, 2025, AP News
        A commentary article entitled, ``Foreign student visas Need
            Limits,'' May 15, 2025, The Heritage Foundation
        A letter to the Honorable Alejandro Mayorkas, Secretary, U.S.
            Department of Homeland Security, Aug. 1, 2024, from the
            Members of Congress
    A letter to the Honorable Kristi Noem, Secretary, U.S. Department
      of Homeland Security, and the Honorable Marco Rubio, Secretary,
      U.S. Department of State, from Members of Congress, Jan. 29,
      2025, submitted by the Honorable Chip Roy, Member of the
      Subcommittee on Immigration Integrity, Security, and
      Enforcement from the State of Texas, for the record
    An article entitled, ``A majority of Americans say immigrants
      mostly fill jobs U.S. citizens do not want,'' Jun. 10, 2020,
      Pew Research Center, submitted by the Honorable Jamie Raskin,
      Ranking Member of the Committee on the Judiciary from the State
      of Maryland, for the record

                     QUESTIONS AND RESPONSES FOR THE RECORD

    Questions submitted by the Honorable Russell Fry, a Member of the
      Committee on the Judiciary from the State of South Carolina,
      for the record
      Questions for Jessica M. Vaughan, Director, Policy Studies,
          Center for Immigration Studies, and Simon R. Hankinson,
          Senior Research Fellow, Border Security and Immigration
          Center
        Response from Jessica M. Vaughan, Director, Policy Studies,
            Center for Immigration Studies, and Simon R. Hankinson,
            Senior Research Fellow, Border Security and Immigration
            Center

      Questions for Simon R. Hankinson, Senior Research Fellow,
          Border Security and Immigration Center, The Heritage
          Foundation
        Response from Simon R. Hankinson, Senior Research Fellow,
            Border Security and Immigration Center, The Heritage
            Foundation

              RESTORING INTEGRITY AND SECURITY TO THE VISA PROCESS

                                  ----------

                            Wednesday, June 25, 2025

                            House of Representatives

                Subcommittee on Immigration Integrity, Security,

                                and Enforcement

                           Committee on the Judiciary

                                 Washington, DC

        The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 2 p.m., in Room
    2141, Rayburn House Office Building, the Hon. Tom McClintock
    [Chair of the Subcommittee] presiding.
        Members present: Representatives McClintock, Biggs,
    Tiffany, Roy, Van Drew, Moore, Hunt, Fry, Grothman, Knott,
    Onder, Schmidt, Gill, Jayapal, Raskin, Nadler, Scanlon, Ross,
    Garcia, Crockett, and Cohen.
        Mr. McClintock. The Subcommittee will come to order.
    Without objection, the Chair is authorized to declare a recess
    at any time. I want to welcome everyone to today's hearing on
    the visa process.
        We will begin with opening statements. We will begin with
    mine.
        In many ways the 2024 election was a referendum on the
    Democrats' open border policies. For four years they opened
    America's borders and deliberately trafficked at least six
    million illegal aliens directly into our community. While the
    Border Patrol was overwhelmed by arranging lodging,
    transportation, food, healthcare, legal services for this
    massive population, and another two million got-aways entered
    our country as well.
        The result was devastating for our Nation and produced one
    of the greatest political realignments in our Nation's history.
    Americans suffered as their classrooms filled with non-English
    speaking students, their hospitals were overwhelmed by illegals
    demanding care, their food pantries stripped bare, and homeless
    shelters filled to capacity.
        The cost of these services is estimated at $160 billion a
    year, or about $1,250 from the taxes of an average American
    household annually.
        More ominously, among this population were the most violent
    criminals, criminal gangs, and cartels on the planet, often
    shielded by Democrats' sanctuary laws, and Leftist DAs and
    judges.
        The sad, senseless, and entirely preventable tragedies
    produced by these policies continue to unfold before us on a
    daily basis.
        For four years Democrats in this Congress and in this
    Committee told us this was for our own good and, besides, there
    wasn't anything we could do about it anyway short of their
    demand for widespread amnesty. The American people knew better.
    They knew, as President Trump put it, that we didn't need new
    laws, we needed to get a new President.
        We got one. Within 30 days illegal border crossings were
    cut 96 percent, and traffic across the deadly Darien Gap
    dropped 99 percent, saving thousands of lives.
        Since taking office, roughly 150,000 illegal migrants, many
    with criminal convictions and charges, have been detained by
    the Trump Administration as required by law, and the largest
    illegal mass migration in history is now being redressed by the
    largest repatriation.
        Reportedly, roughly a million illegal migrants have already
    decided voluntarily return to their own countries as a result.
        We have a long way to go in restoring the integrity of our
    immigration laws. Violent mobs in our cities have repeatedly
    attacked law enforcement officers carrying out these laws, and
    Democratic officials have said that the violence will stop once
    enforcement stops. In other words, if we enforce the laws the
    American people demanded, Democrats will burn our cities to the
    ground. We are not going to allow such intimidation to prevail.
        In the coming months we will report from the Judiciary
    Committee a new version of H.R. 2 which will assure that this
    deliberate and rampant illegality can never again threaten our
    Nation, our communities, or our people.
        The purpose of today's hearing is to determine to what
    extent our legal immigration system has been exploited, abused,
    and defrauded, and to recommend measures to assure that legal
    immigration to the United States is legitimate, honest, fully
    vetted, and above-board, serving the interests of both the
    United States and those honest and law-abiding immigrants who
    seek to come here legally.
        America has the most generous legal immigration system in
    the world. During Fiscal Year 2023, the U.S. Government issued
    more than 10.4 million nonimmigrant visas while nearly 1.2
    million aliens became lawful permanent residents through the
    immigrant visa system.
        We will devote a future hearing to the deliberate
    subversion of the visa process by the Biden Administration when
    the Inspector General publishes one of his forthcoming reports.
    Suffice it to say for now that during those four years the
    administration sacrificed the integrity and security in the
    screening process in issuing visas, exploiting the discretion
    in the legal requirement for in-person interviews with a
    consular officer.
        Integrity in the visa process is a matter of national
    security for our country. Take, for instance, the case of
    Mohammed Soliman who perpetrated his depraved, antisemitic
    terrorist attack in Boulder, Colorado, earlier this month.
    Soliman had previously been denied a visa on at least one
    occasion, but was issued a visitor visa in 2022.
        One month after his arrival in the United States Soliman
    filed an asylum application. Such action clearly showed that he
    never intended to leave the U.S. once here, as required by his
    tourist visa. Subsequent statements by his family members have
    validated that assertion.
        The cases like this demonstrate why it is imperative that
    the State Department and Department of Homeland Security
    employees who adjudicate visas have as much information as
    possible about the applicants. Some of that information is
    supplied by the alien during the application process, while
    other information is available through the U.S. Government
    interagency screening and vetting process.
        As we have heard in previous testimony about illegal alien
    border crossers, if an alien has no criminal or other security-
    related record it is like they are ``being vetted against a
    blank sheet of paper,'' as one witness told us in Subcommittee
    last year.
        The same is true of aliens seeking visas. There can be no
    substitute for looking virtually every applicant in the eye and
    questioning their motives, intent, and plans.
        Once again President Trump has taken decisive action to
    approve screening and vetting of visa applicants. On
    Inauguration Day he directed relevant agencies to identify
    deficiencies in the visa process and the resources available to
    allow for maximum vetting of visa applicants. Pursuant to that
    Executive Order, the administration has identified 19 countries
    that were uncooperative or deficient in providing background
    information on applicants, and the President, accordingly,
    restricted issuance of visas to their nationals.
        Nonimmigrant visa categories that are rife with fraud and
    abuse include the student visa program where fake schools are
    set up for the sole purpose of facilitating fraudulent claims
    of student status.
        The U Visa is offered to those who are victims or witnesses
    to crimes, and offer a path to U.S. citizenship. It should be
    no surprise that criminal rings have been uncovered to stage
    phony crimes and take advantage of this process.
        Fraud and lax vetting in the visa process do not exist
    solely in the nonimmigrant visa context. The immigrant visa
    process is also routinely abused and exploited.
        Take, for example, the Diversity Visa Program known as the
    Visa Lottery. Not only do bad actors impersonate U.S.
    Government officials to try to get diversity applicants to pay
    them money, but fake documents and sham marriages have become
    commonplace.
        The Special Immigrant Juvenile Program is also susceptible
    to fraud and misuse, allowing 20-year-old foreign nationals to
    falsely claim abuse by a parent and be allowed to remain in the
    U.S. nearly indefinitely.
        The VAWA self-petition process conducted in secret without
    the knowledge of the U.S. citizen spouse has also been subject
    to fraud as well.
        As this administration closes this dangerous chapter of
    outright illegal immigration under Biden, we must also protect
    our legal channels from fraud and abuse. That is the purpose of
    today's hearing. We look to our witnesses for their guidance
    and suggestions on doing so.
        With that, I now yield to the Ranking Member for her
    opening statement.
        Ms. Jayapal. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
        In my 2\1/2\ years as Ranking Member of the Immigration
    Subcommittee I believe that this is the first hearing that the
    Majority has held that is not focused on undocumented
    immigrants. I am glad the Majority realizes that there is an
    entire legal immigration system to discuss, a system that has
    not been updated in 35 years.
        We need a modernized system that meets our 21st Century
    needs, while also protecting American workers. Many of our
    colleagues on the other side of the aisle love to say that they
    support legal immigration and people coming in ``the right
    way.'' Well, this is their chance. Unfortunately, just over 150
    days into the second Trump Administration, the Trump
    Administration has been making it exceedingly clear that it
    opposes all immigration, including legal immigration.
        Across the country we have seen students picked up by
    masked immigration agents in unmarked cars, taken to detention
    facilities with no warning, and given limited information as to
    why they are being deported. The administration has revoked
    thousands of student visas as a weapon to stifle political
    dissent, restrict due process, and enforce an exclusionary and
    nativist vision of America that runs counter to everything our
    institutions of higher learning stands for.
        Just last week, video of masked ICE agents violently
    beating the father of three U.S. Marines has absolutely shocked
    the conscience of Americans across the political spectrum.
        The administration's actions to close off legal pathways
    will actually hurt America's ability to innovate and attract
    the talent we need. Make no mistake, they are not about
    national security. We know this because just last month
    Secretary of State Rubio announced plans to ``aggressively
    revoke student visas of Chinese students,'' all in the name of
    national security.
        Yet, just two weeks later President Trump, in announcing a
    so-called trade deal with China, said Chinese students would
    still be able to attend universities in the United States, even
    noting ``it has always been good with me.''
        After a pause, the United States has resumed interviews for
    F, J, and M Visas, but added new screening of the applicants'
    social media. These visas cover more than just students. They
    apply to physicians, university researchers, and au pairs, many
    of whom come to work for military families and others.
        Then, earlier this month President Trump issued a
    proclamation restricting or limiting the entry of nationals
    from 19 countries. In total, the 19 countries subject to these
    discriminatory bans have a combined population of over 475
    million people. According to State Department data, the
    proclamation has the potential to block at least 34,000 Green
    Cards from being issued, and over 125,000 nonimmigrant visas
    from being issued every single year.
        Recent reporting also tells us that the Trump
    Administration is considering adding an additional 36 countries
    to that list, 25 of which are from Africa. These countries may
    be subjected to partial or even full travel bans if they do not
    meet certain benchmarks over the next two months. Alarmingly,
    it appears that the Trump Administration is attempting to
    coerce some of these countries into signing third country
    removal agreements to keep themselves off the ban list.
        The Trump Administration has also stripped hundreds of
    thousands of individuals of their lawful parole or temporary
    protected status. Many of these people came lawfully from
    Nicaragua, Haiti, Cuba, and Venezuela, or fled these cruel
    regimes. Now, the Trump Administration is actually making them
    undocumented and trying to send them back to their home
    countries where they may be abused or tortured.
        Now, it is not just African, Asian, or Latin American
    countries. Every day it seems we hear a new horror story of
    Customs and Border Protection stopping and detaining someone at
    an air or land port who is from Canada or Europe. Often, they
    then wrongly send those people to ICE detention for weeks. This
    includes a German national on a fiance visa who spent over two
    weeks in an ICE detention center because he and his U.S.
    citizen spouse simply took a day trip to Mexico.
        At the Canadian border a backpacker from Wales spent nearly
    three weeks at a detention center over confusion related to her
    visa before being allowed to fly home at her own expense.
        The Canadian woman on a work visa detained at the Tijuana
    border who spent 12 days in detention before finally being able
    to return home.
        Here is the kicker: A prime motivation of these detentions
    appears to be to overfill detention beds at private detention
    facilities that are run by for-profit corporations that
    bankroll Republican campaigns. These for-profit facilities are
    rife with abuse because they are actually incentivized to cut
    corners so that they can reap enormous profits, all paid for by
    the American taxpayer.
        The path forward for America is a legal immigration system
    that is modernized, fair, and adequate to meet the needs of our
    families and our economy. Attacking legal immigration, The
    student visas, workers with valid visas, even sweeping up U.S.
    citizens, that is not just morally wrong, it makes absolutely
    no sense.
        Making America less welcoming as a Nation is already having
    a real impact. The United States will lose out $12.5 billion in
    tourism alone this year. The students, top scientists, and
    researchers don't want to come to a country that suppresses
    their free speech rights or discriminates against them for what
    their home repressive governments do. That should not be what
    America is.
        I look forward to hearing from all our witnesses today. I
    yield back.
        Mr. McClintock. The gentlelady yields back.
        I now recognize the Ranking Member of the Full Committee,
    Mr. Raskin, for an opening statement.
        Mr. Raskin. Mr. Chair, thank you very kindly. Thank you to
    all the witnesses for being with us today.
        There is more to immigration and border enforcement, as the
    Ranking Member of the Subcommittee just said. It is a good
    thing that our friends are waking up to that.
        President Trump and Stephen Miller's ambition to deport 12
    million people from the country has been a terrible failure on
    its own terms. Even in its failure it has turned our society
    upside-down. It has terrorized both citizens and noncitizens,
    destabilized and divided our communities, wrecked small
    businesses who have lost their workers, and trashed our
    Constitution for everybody.
        It has gotten so bad that Donald Trump even seems to have
    recognized that his policies don't fit reality.
        Two weeks ago he gave the game away by acknowledging that
    hundreds of thousands of undocumented aliens working on the
    farms and in the fields are ``good, long-time workers,'' and
    that he had been lobbied both by his Agriculture Secretary and
    by large agricultural interests to stop the ICE raids on farms,
    as they are spreading panic and keeping a majority of the
    workforce from showing up at work.
        He decided he would stop enforcing the mass dragnet ICE
    raids there, and invoked the same logic for the restaurant
    sector, also heavily dependent on undocumented people. Of
    course, it would apply equally, then, to the construction
    sector, landscaping and gardening, nursing, you name it.
        The vast majority of immigrants, even those here illegally,
    are not rapists and criminals, but hard-working people
    essential to our economy, just looking to make a better life
    for themselves. Think of the Dreamers.
        So, it is good for us to have the first immigration hearing
    in memory not on enforcement tactics at the border or in our
    communities but, instead, about visas. Alas, the President's
    record on visas is riddled with the same bursts of extremism,
    dogmatism, and fanaticism that have made his enforcement
    measures so unpopular. The administration has tortured our laws
    and trampled our Constitution to kick out permanent resident
    Green Card holders, students, and target universities who voice
    opinions that he disapproves.
        As part of its effort to undertake a hostile takeover of
    America's colleges and universities, the administration
    interrupted interviews for student and exchange visitor visas.
        The result: About 15 percent of foreign doctors to begin
    their work at American teaching hospitals around the country
    were unable to get their visas in time to start the medical
    year next month, all at a time when we have a serious doctor
    shortage in the country that threatens access to care.
        The monstrous Reconciliation Bill threatens to slash
    Medicaid funding on which rural hospitals rely.
        The administration has also recently implemented its
    xenophobic travel ban to unilaterally ban entrance into the
    country for all nationals of 19 different countries, with minor
    exceptions. Categorically denying visas to nationals of these
    countries does not make us safer, or freer, or more prosperous,
    it cements us in the eyes of the world as a vindictive,
    isolationist, and increasingly undependable and authoritarian
    country.
        The travel ban will likely have significant economic
    consequences by restricting travel and migration from the
    targeted Nations. In 2022, at least 298,000 noncitizens from
    countries affected by the new travel ban arrived in the U.S.
    Most of them came to the U.S. temporarily, spending money as
    tourists or as students, fueling our economy.
        The following year households with nationals from the
    targeted countries collectively earned $3.2 billion in income,
    paid $750 million in Federal, State, and local taxes, and held
    $2.5 billion in spending power.
        Donald Trump also paused the Refugee Program, claiming the
    entry of these thoroughly vetted and re-vetted individuals
    would be detrimental to the United States. Then, he allowed
    White Afrikaners to apply via a Google form and to undergo an
    expedited process to come to the U.S. as refugees. It should
    shock no one to learn that after they arrived reporters were
    able to dig up numerous antisemitic posts from the refugees.
    One of them had never been subjected, apparently, to the new
    antisemitism screen being used for other visa candidates.
        The title of this hearing is ``Restoring Integrity and
    Security to the Visa Process.'' How does any of this restore
    integrity or security? These random pauses, arbitrary bans, ad
    hoc detentions, do nothing to improve security or integrity in
    our process.
        President Trump has turned our visa system into a terrain
    of caprice and selective punishment he can wield against his
    chosen political enemies and use to demonize and scapegoat
    immigrants, including visa recipients. His war on immigrants is
    designed to distract us from the fact that they are trying to
    cut 14 million Americans off Medicaid, destroying small
    businesses with chaotic and unlawful tariff policies, gutting
    Federal agencies, programs charged with protecting Americans
    against scams and frauds, and using the pardon power to
    transfer more than a billion dollars from the victims of crime
    to the perpetrators of crime.
        Sometimes the President has had his lucid moments on
    immigration. During his first term while saying he wanted to
    build a big beautiful wall, he said the wall would have a big,
    very beautiful door signifying his support for legal
    immigration.
        In brief, lucid moments like these I try to find hope that
    we can work together across the aisle to focus on a secure
    border, the removal of the immigrants convicted of serious
    crimes and public safety threats, a pathway to citizenship for
    the law-abiding, tax-paying undocumented immigrants who Trump
    recently called very good, long-time workers, and to modernize
    the immigration system that will make it easier to come here
    lawfully while protecting American workers.
        We have come very close to doing this in the past. We can
    do it again.
        Tom Paine, who arrived in the country in 1774, fell in love
    with America when he got here. He said this land will become an
    asylum to humanity. Not an insane asylum, mind you, but a place
    of refuge for people seeking freedom from religious, political,
    economic persecution, and discrimination from all over the
    world.
        Let's live up to the original vision of the Founders. This
    is a Nation made up of immigrants and the descendants of people
    who were enslaved, and of the original Native Americans. This
    is a land of immigration, a land of immigrants, and land of
    laws. We can make it all fit together.
        I hope we can work together on a bipartisan basis to make
    that happen.
        I yield back, Mr. Chair.
        Mr. McClintock. The gentleman yields back.
        Without objection, all other opening statements will be
    included in the record.
        I will now introduce today's witnesses.
        We have with us today Ms. Jessica Vaughan, who is the
    Director of Policy Studies for the Center for Immigration
    Studies. Prior to that, Ms. Vaughan was a State Department
    Foreign Service Officer serving in Belgium, Trinidad, and
    Tobago.
        Ms. Vaughan has a Master's Degree from Georgetown
    University and a Bachelor's Degree from Washington College in
    Maryland
        Simon Hankinson is a Senior Research Fellow at The Heritage
    Foundation's Border Security and Immigration Center. From 1999-
    2022, he was a State Department Foreign Service Officer serving
    in several capacities in countries including Kenya, France,
    Fiji, and Ghana.
        Prior to entering into the State Department, Mr. Hankinson
    worked as a lawyer in London and a teacher in Miami. He holds a
    Master's Degree in Modern History from St. Andrews, Scotland; a
    degree from the College of Law in London; and a Master's Degree
    in International Security Affairs from the National Defense
    University in Washington, DC.
        Mr. Alex Nowrasteh is the Vice President for Economic and
    Social Policy Studies at the CATO Institute. He has written on
    the economic impacts of immigration and the economy.
        Mr. Nowrasteh received a B.A. in Economics from George
    Mason University and an M.S. in Economic History from the
    London School of Economics.
        Finally, Mr. Cody Brown is the Managing Attorney of Codia
    Law, a firm that represents U.S. citizens who are victims of
    immigration fraud. He has worked on the Senate Homeland
    Security and Governmental Affairs Committee, and as legislative
    counsel for a member of the House Homeland Security Committee,
    among other jobs.
        Mr. Brown earned an LL.M. from Georgetown University Law
    Center, a J.D. from Hamline University School of Law, and a
    B.S. from Northwestern College.
        We want to welcome all our witnesses and thank them for
    appearing today. We will begin by swearing you in.
        Would you please rise and raise your right hand.
        Do you swear or affirm under penalty of perjury that the
    testimony you are about to give is true and correct to the best
    of your knowledge, information, and belief, so help you God?
        [Affirmative responses.]
        Mr. McClintock. Let the record reflect the witnesses have
    answered in the affirmative.
        Thank you. Please be seated.
        Please note that your written testimony will be entered
    into the record in its entirety. Accordingly, we ask that you
    summarize your testimony in five minutes.
        We will begin with Ms. Vaughan.

                    STATEMENT OF JESSICA M. VAUGHAN

        Ms. Vaughan. Thank you. Americans are all too familiar with
    the details of the mass migration disaster we experienced
    during the four years of the Biden Administration when about
    nine million illegal border crossers and parolees were allowed
    to enter the country. Our foreign-born population has spiked to
    the highest point in history, with just over 53 million people,
    and the highest percentage of our population ever, almost 16
    percent.
        Not all these newly arrived illegal aliens were caught and
    released at the border. Many arrived on visas obtained under
    more lenient rules put in place by the Biden Administration.
    Under these policies, new, temporary visa issuances went up by
    25 percent, to 11 million in 2024. New issuances of the short-
    term B-1 and B-2 visitor's visas, which is the largest and most
    overstay-prone category, went up 40 percent to nine million in
    2024 alone.
        Our visa process is improved but still far from secure.
    Thanks to the more lenient policies which include interview
    waivers, stretching eligibility criteria, and generally
    prioritizing swift approval over diligence in vetting, the visa
    programs have become much more vulnerable to frivolous and
    outright fraudulent applications.
        Not only does this often disadvantage qualified applicants
    who have to wait longer to receive visas, fraud and abuse
    undermine public support and, worst of all, allow bad actors
    who are public safety or national security threats, to gain
    access to our country.
        These risks are not minor or unreliable. Frankly, I think
    it is insensitive and irresponsible to trivialize these
    incidents that have occurred as a result of these vetting
    failures. It is insensitive to the victims and irresponsible
    for policymakers to do so.
        One new example of a visa vetting mistake is Behzad Nejad,
    an Iranian man who was given a student visa in 2016 to attend
    the University of Texas. His status was terminated soon after
    he was arrested for domestic violence, but it took another year
    for him to be ordered removed. ICE finally picked him up just
    this week, in possession of a firearm on top of it.
        Then, there's Abdullah Hassan who came on a visa in 2022,
    settled in Falls Church, attended George Mason, and was
    arrested last December for promoting violence against Jews
    online and planning a mass casualty attack on Jews in New York.
        Yes, it helps to have more interior enforcement, but the
    visa issuance process and the programs themselves need to be
    reformed to sift out more unqualified applicants before they
    get here.
        In 2023 alone, there were more than 18,000 entries of
    Iranian citizens on NIVs, including more than 10,000 on B1/B2
    visas, more than 5,000 entries on student visas, and more than
    1,000 on exchange visas. This is just way too big a haystack
    for ICE to have to sift through when there is a potential
    threat as we have now.
        The problem is partly one of leadership to change the
    culture of travel facilitation at the State Department, but
    Congress needs to step in, too, by enacting statutory
    requirements for visa interviews, which are critical to
    evaluating applicants, and establishing consequences for
    overstaying, both for the person and the sponsor, and by
    providing resources for fraud protection.
        It is not just a processing problem. We have to make sure
    that applicants are actually eligible for the visas they seek.
    Some of the visa categories, especially on the permanent visa
    side, are so conceptually flawed and have such inadequate
    statutory criteria, that even when adjudicators are empowered
    to try to prevent fraud they are almost powerless to do so.
        Among the less problematic and ripe for Congressional
    action are two categories where State and local government
    entities are the gatekeepers to establishing eligibility: The U
    Visa and the Special Immigrant Juvenile category. The latter,
    in particular, needs urgent attention from Congress, especially
    in light of the hundreds of thousands of minors who have come
    in the last four years.
        We know we have a problem when applications spike as they
    have in the SIJ category, with more than 50,000 a year now, and
    when the specialty law firms are advertising all over social
    media offering young illegal aliens, who have no other path to
    stay here, the option to claim that they were abused,
    neglected, or abandoned by one parent, even long ago, claims
    that are nearly impossible to verify even if anyone tried.
        Criminal histories can be excused or may be unavailable to
    adjudicators if they were committed as juvenile, making this
    the amnesty program of choice for MS-13 gang members, among
    others.
        As with the U Visa or some other programs, under Biden
    rules the applicants get the work permit and protection from
    deportation long before the file is ever reviewed.
        Thanks again for the opportunity to discuss these issues.
        [The prepared statement of Ms. Vaughan follows:]
     [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Mr. Gill. [Presiding.] Thank you, Ms. Vaughan. Mr.
    Hankinson, you may begin.

                    STATEMENT OF SIMON R. HANKINSON

        Mr. Hankinson. Chair Gill, Ranking Member Jayapal, and the
    Members of the Subcommittee, thank you for inviting me to
    testify today.
        Well, first, what is a visa? Let's imagine America is a
    castle surrounded by a wall. Anyone wanting to visit the castle
    first has to go to the main gate in the wall. That is the U.S.
    Embassy.
        The guards will want to know who the visitor is, where he
    is from, what he does, and why he wants to enter the castle.
    They ask a lot of questions and do their best to verify the
    visitor's claims, but they are limited in what they can find
    out.
        If they are satisfied as to his identity and truthfulness,
    they give the visitor permission to go inside and knock on the
    castle door. That permission is the visa. It gives the holder
    the likelihood, but not the right to be let into the castle.
        When the visitor knocks on the castle door the person at
    the door is the Customs and Border Protection Inspector. He
    sees that the visitor has gotten past the guards, but he will
    still ask questions to make sure he is satisfied before letting
    the visitor inside.
        Visas have three main vulnerabilities: Fraud, vetting, and
    overstays.
        Fraud. A fact of life in visa work. It varies by place and
    person. Applicants, particularly in poor and corrupt countries,
    lie to get visas. I had been lied to thousands of times.
    Consular offices are unable to see or to verify accurate
    records for most applicants, so they have to use their
    professional judgment.
        Vetting. Checking for criminal records or other
    ineligibilities. Consular officers again are limited to what
    the applicant presents and whatever exists in U.S. Government
    databases, which don't include criminal records for most
    countries. Some visa applicants lie about their intent for
    traveling to the U.S. and they overstay.
        Overstay. Rates by category of person and country of origin
    should be tied to refusal rates. For example, recent reports
    from consular posts have shown high overstay rates from
    students of English as a second language. In response, USCIS
    should strip schools whose students overstay at high rates of
    the right to admit foreign students. The State Department
    should limit issuing student visas in those countries of
    origin.
        A visa is a privilege and not a right. Just as the passing
    stranger has no right to get into the castle, no one has a
    right to enter any other country but his own. We are under no
    obligation to admit foreigners who come to the United States to
    incite antisemitism, terrorism, or to attack U.S. foreign
    policy. The law gives the President and the Secretary of State
    wide discretion to keep undesirable foreigners out. Their use
    of this Constitutional prerogative must not be obviated by
    judicial overreach.
        At the same time, the original scope of some visa
    categories has warped into something unintended by Congress. I
    will give just a few examples.
        The purpose of the student visas are for foreign nationals
    to study in the United States and then return home to build
    their own countries. Now, we can retain the very best, but it
    was never intended that every student visa automatically led to
    permanent residency. The optional practical training program
    which facilitates this is not statutory and should be
    terminated.
        The H1-B Visa was created 30 years ago to fill a short-term
    need for skilled labor, with a limit of 65,000 a year. Today,
    many
    H1-B workers are paid below the median wage for their
    occupations. The H1-Bs disproportionately benefit large tech
    firms and foreign outsourcing companies at the expense of
    smaller employers and American workers.
        The H1-B has, thus, evolved from a temporary work visa into
    a de facto immigrant visa that disproportionately benefits one
    country, India. Today, the unemployment rate for recent college
    graduates is nearly six percent, which is twice the rate for
    all graduates. Up the 70 percent of science, technology,
    engineering, and math graduates don't even work in STEM fields.
    Yet, even as they lay off thousands of workers, major U.S.
    companies continue to petition for thousands of H1-B workers,
    claiming they can't find qualified Americans.
        We need to return the H1-B program to its original scope
    and put our own children and workers first.
        There are almost 300,000 Chinese students in this country.
    Some of them spy against the U.S. Government, companies, and
    university research programs. We do have visa screening to
    prevent this, but Chinese applicants can come on a tourist or
    other visa and then change status to student without triggering
    that vetting. We should not allow this.
        Visa holders seeking to change their status to student
    researcher or worker should go home first and apply at a U.S.
    Embassy, so they are properly scrutinized.
        The biggest vulnerability of temporary visas is that
    holders can claim asylum once in the U.S. With lengthy process,
    appeals, and a massive backlog it is too easy to use a
    fraudulent claim to remain indefinitely. Congress should
    restore integrity to our asylum laws and make it harder to
    claim on frivolous grounds. They should speed up the process
    and we should all make sure that decisions are carried out.
        There are many other possible ways to increase efficiency
    and integrity of visas.
        For example, we could prioritize education and skills over
    family reunification; we could reduce the standardized
    authorized stay to 90 days instead of 180; we could end the
    vague duration of status for foreign students and journalists;
    consular officers could be encouraged to apply the public
    charge rule to prevent migration of probable indigents; or we
    could let only accredited institutions with a good compliance
    record admit foreign students and cap the percentage of those
    students.
        Now, with our Southern border no longer wide open, and
    interior enforcement once again underway, we have the time to
    consider all these ideas and more.
        Thank you. I am happy to take questions.
        [The prepared statement of Mr. Hankinson follows:]
        [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Mr. Gill. Thank you, Mr. Hankinson. Mr. Nowrasteh, you may
    begin.

                      STATEMENT OF ALEX NOWRASTEH

        Mr. Nowrasteh. Chair McClintock, Ranking Member Jayapal,
    and the distinguished Members of the Subcommittee, thank you
    for the opportunity to testify.
        Over the decades, the CATO Institute has produced original
    research on immigration, including the threat of foreign-born
    terrorism, immigrant criminality, and the vast economic
    contributions of immigrants and their descendants. Thus, it is
    a pleasure to be invited to speak on the topic of today's
    hearing, Restoring Integrity and Security to the Visa Process.
        However, I must start with a criticism of the title of the
    hearing. The title ``Restoring Integrity and Security to the
    Visa Process'' implies that integrity and security were somehow
    lost or missing from the visa process. Nothing could be further
    from the truth.
        The visa security system was rightly overhauled after the
    9/11 attacks, and has only gotten more thorough, more complex,
    and expanded to cover more categories of immigrants and
    nonimmigrants since then.
        The ultimate proof is not in the legal procedures or the
    number of Government employees who do the checks, the proof is
    in the security results. Since the post-9/11 overhaul 19 people
    have been murdered and attacked on U.S. soil committed by
    foreign-born terrorist who entered on nonimmigrant visas. Now,
    every murder, of course, is a tragedy. Perspective also matters
    when deciding how to save the greatest number of lives.
        For instance, it is likely that more people have been
    killed in the U.S. by shark attacks since 9/11 than by foreign-
    born terrorists who entered on nonimmigrant visas. Zero people
    were murdered by foreign-born terrorists on U.S. soil during
    the Biden Administration, the first administration with zero
    such murders for as far back as we have data. That is evidence
    of a visa system with the integrity and security that Americans
    deserve.
        ICE recently arrested 15 Iranian nationals as of last
    night. The justification was a supposed terrorist threat from
    phantom Iranian sleeper cells we have heard so much about over
    the decades. ICE knew about these Iranian nationals, many of
    whom are criminals, before the administration decided to bomb
    Iran. If the threat were serious, why wait until now? ICE was
    likely too busy harassing noncriminals at Home Depot.
        The crime rates of immigrants, no matter what data sources
    you use, all show that immigrants and travelers have a low
    incarceration or crime rate, far lower than native-born
    Americans. Even foreign nationals from countries that don't
    cooperate and share crime data with the U.S. have lower crime
    rates than native-born Americans.
        There are always going to be bad actors--criminals,
    terrorists, spies, or others who will try to enter the United
    States. The visa security system isn't perfect. It is not. We
    cannot expect it to be. It works pretty darn well.
        We know it works well because the proof is in the pudding.
    There is no integrity or security that we must restore to the
    visa process because it was never lost in the first place.
        However, increasing the security burden and banning
    immigration from countries on flimsy security pretext is
    costly. Obviously, visa security and integrity are important.
    However, visa security theater is not a free lunch. That bill
    is paid by the United States in lost economic growth, lost
    opportunity, lower wages, and less government revenues.
        Immigrants are about twice as likely to start a business as
    native-born Americans. From small corner shops to billion-
    dollar corporations, immigrants are more likely to be
    entrepreneurs or founders than native-born Americans.
        Immigrant workers raise the wages of American workers by
    filling critical niches in the labor market. Immigrants are
    over-represented in economic sectors and occupations, from
    agriculture and construction to childcare, engineering, and the
    sciences. Immigrants pay about $1.38 in taxes to the Federal
    Government for every dollar in benefits they receive. The
    benefits to the United States go on.
        I want you to imagine what our country would look like
    today without immigrants in the past.
        The U.S. population is approximately 340 million. If
    immigration were shut down in the year 1800, there would only
    be about 100 million Americans here. Nobody in their right mind
    would think that those mere 100 million Americans in this
    alternative scenario would be richer or freer than the 340
    million people living here today.
        So, why do you imagine that our descendants will be richer
    if we close the border today. The visa system has integrity.
    The visa system is secure. Don't be afraid of small threats,
    exaggerated hazards, or frightening rhetoric. Don't pile on
    more regulations, immigration restrictions that will reduce our
    security, add country bans that fix a nonexistent problem.
    Don't impose that burden on Americans today or our descendants
    tomorrow.
        Thank you.
        [The prepared statement of Mr. Nowrasteh follows:]
       [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Mr. Gill. Thank you, Mr. Nowrasteh. Mr. Brown, you may
    begin.

                       STATEMENT OF CODY M. BROWN

        Mr. Brown. Mr. Chair and the Members of the Committee, my
    name is Cody Brown. I am the Managing Attorney at Codias Law,
    the Nation's premier immigration law firm, exclusively for U.S.
    citizens who have been victimized by immigration fraud, which I
    note is a felony under Federal law.
        For years the border captured the Nation's attention while
    masking a far more insidious scandal--the collapse of the
    lawful immigration system itself where the law goes unenforced,
    and antifraud safeguards are deliberately dismantled.
        Why spend billions on border security if foreign threats
    can march through the front door?
        Immigration fraud is not a victimless crime. I know this
    because I walk with our clients through some of the darkest
    chapters of their lives. Half women, half men, they come from
    all walks of life. They span every demographic and political
    persuasion from Trump supporters to super volunteers for Bernie
    Sanders.
        Our clients are falsely imprisoned, they are defamed, they
    are extorted, they are betrayed, and they are sued for their
    life savings under the i-864. Some lose custody of their
    children. For some female clients their final childbearing
    years are stolen. All so a foreign national can get an
    immigration benefit.
        What many of my clients do not know until today is that I,
    too, have walked in their shoes. On September 19, 2016, during
    a highly contentious Presidential election cycle, I launched
    one of the earliest social platforms to combat big tech
    censorship. The launch was based in Austin, Texas, covered by
    Fox News, National Review, and Breitbart.
        Days later, an illegal alien whom I did not know, I had
    never met, accused me of stalking her. While walking to the
    grocery store with my wife I was arrested by a fugitive task
    force at gunpoint, thrown into jail, subjected to a $75,000
    bond, without knowing who had accused me, and even what the
    charge was.
        I learned the basic facts from the Austin American
    Statesman based on an arrest affidavit leaked while I was still
    in jail. I didn't even learn the accuser's identity until I was
    served with a protective order.
        Her statements were riddled with contradictions. There was
    no corroborating evidence whatsoever. The alleged incidents
    occurred in areas with numerous surveillance cameras, yet I
    appeared in none.
        She claimed we had conversations. I don't speak Spanish,
    and she needed an interpreter in court.
        When asked to identify me in court, she could not.
        Seven months after my arrest the police finally disclosed
    my forensic phone data which proved I was not where, anywhere
    she claimed.
        That is when we learned about the U Visa. The same month
    that I was arrested the U.S. House and Senate Judiciary
    Committees opened a probe into the U Visa program. They
    concluded it is being exploited by those wishing to defraud the
    system and avoid deportation. Yet, in my case the judge
    prohibited my attorney from even asking about the accuser's
    immigration status.
        At no time during my prosecution was the U Visa ever
    disclosed. When we raised the issue, the prosecutor abruptly
    dismissed the charge.
        A private investigator obtained a confession from the
    illegal alien that she was seeking a U Visa. When confronted
    with this evidence, the prosecutor in Travis County expunged
    the case.
        What I soon realized was there was another trial, one that
    I was never told about. It took place inside the walls of
    USCIS. Congress has created several U Visa programs that
    empowered Federal bureaucrats to act as judge and jury over
    whether a U.S. citizen committed a crime. These are secret
    trials.
        The U.S. citizen is never notified. There is no hearing,
    there is no cross-examination. There is no opportunity to
    provide counterevidence to defend yourself. By a mere
    preponderance of the evidence a bureaucrat can convict a U.S.
    citizen of a crime so a foreign national can get an immigration
    benefit. There are now 400,000 of these U Visas pending over at
    USCIS.
        These secret trials are not limited to just U Visas. They
    occur every day in marriage-based cases, VAWA self-petitions,
    i-751 waivers, both of which allow a foreign spouse to accuse
    their citizen spouse of a crime to fast track their Green Card.
    In fact, by volume, marriage-based fraud dominates the system,
    including one-sided marriage fraud, VAWA self-petition fraud,
    and i-751 fraud.
        Nearly a quarter of all new immigrants are spouses of U.S.
    citizens, approximately 300,000 per year.
        I am almost done.
        The incentives for immigration marriage fraud are
    irresistible: Exemption from visa caps, adjustment of status,
    expedited citizenship, and accelerated chain migration.
        Throughout the 20th Century Congress repeatedly amended the
    immigration law.
        Mr. Gill. Your time has expired.
        Mr. Brown. If there is one thing I want Congress to hear,
    we want an appeals process with the Board of Immigration
    Appeals to enable fraud victims to appeal these false
    allegations in front of the board.
        Thank you, Chair.
        [The prepared statement of Mr. Brown follows:]
        [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Mr. Gill. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Brown, we appreciate
    it.
        Now, we are going to move on to five minutes of
    questioning. I will begin by recognizing myself.
        For decades the United States have had an existential
    problem with illegal immigration. This isn't something that is
    new. It wasn't something that was created under the Biden
    Administration. We have had it for a long time.
        The Republicans in Congress and in the rest of the country
    outside of Washington, DC, demanded border security, that
    Washington would actually do what we said we would do on the
    campaign trail and secure the border and stop the flow of
    illegal immigration.
        What would happen in Washington is that the Republicans
    would ask for border security. We would ask for a law. We would
    ask for things that we can fund that would stem this tide of
    illegal immigration.
        In response from the other side of the aisle we would hear
    demands for amnesty, a pathway to citizenship for people who
    have no business being here to begin with, who came here
    illegally. The result was that nothing was done to secure the
    border.
        One of the things that I am most excited about, about the
    Big Beautiful Bill that we are working on, and we are going to
    get passed next week, is that finally we can fund border
    security and mass deportations that the American people demand
    without having to negotiate on amnesty. In other words, the
    American people get what they would like, the Republicans get
    all our priorities, we get a border wall, we get river
    barriers, we get 10,000 new ICE agents, and we don't have to
    deal with demands for mass amnesty. That is a huge win not only
    for conservatives but for all Americans.
        I am excited about getting that done. I believe that mass
    migration is the single biggest existential threat to our
    country today. We are going to begin by fixing that.
        Thank you to the witnesses for being here.
        Ms. Vaughan, I would like to start with you. I really
    appreciate your time here.
        Some claim that in to finally secure the border for good we
    need to make a deal on amnesty, or to expand our already
    extraordinarily generous legal immigration system or work visa
    programs.
        Does this viewpoint put the interests of the American
    people first?
        Ms. Vaughan. Absolutely not.
        The biggest problem--well, first, we have tried this in the
    past and it has never worked because always amnesty now,
    enforcement if we get around to it. This doesn't work.
        What we do know, also from experience, is that every time
    amnesty is raised it destroys all incentives people have to
    voluntarily comply with immigration laws and go home on their
    own if they don't have a path to legal status. It creates
    incentives for people to stay here illegally, and incentives
    for people to start cross--trying to cross the border illegally
    as well.
        We should not be discussing, contemplating amnesty of any
    kind until our--there is integrity and enforcement of the
    immigration laws that we have.
        That is, that is just not something that should be on the
    table now.
        Mr. Gill. Have the American people ever been promised
    border security in exchange for amnesty in the past?
        Ms. Vaughan. Oh, repeatedly, most notably in 1986 when the
    amnesty happened, immediately was given to more people than we
    were told would be qualifying for it. The enforcement promises
    were never applied and never materialized. It has been promised
    in a number of other types of legislation in 2013 and 2007.
        It is always the same thing: Amnesty now, we will promise
    to give you enforcement later.
        Mr. Gill. Whenever amnesty is brought up in the national
    conversation have you found that it leads to increased illegal
    immigration?
        Ms. Vaughan. That is definitely what happened in 2012
    before the so-called Gang of 8 bill, and during that
    discussion. It has happened in the past as well.
        In fact, well, look what happened before the Biden
    Administration took office. They had promised amnesty during
    the campaign. The illegal crossings and encounters at the
    border went up even before Biden took office in January. They
    were up substantially in December, a month before that.
        Mr. Gill. Then, I would like to ask you about our Green
    Card system. Approximately how many immigrants are approved for
    permanent residency each year?
        Ms. Vaughan. It is about one million per year.
        Mr. Gill. About one million. How many of those are via
    chain migration?
        Ms. Vaughan. About 60 percent.
        Mr. Gill. Sixty percent. Awesome. Thank you, Ms. Vaughan. I
    appreciate it.
        Now. I would like to recognize the Ranking Member Ms.
    Jayapal for five minutes.
        Ms. Jayapal. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
        Maintaining a healthy, robust, secure visa system so people
    from all over the world can come to America is not, should not
    be a partisan issue. Immigration has always been and continues
    to be one of the essential factors to America's success as a
    Nation.
        Immigrants set up our founding government system, served in
    our armed forces, power our economy in just about every sector,
    and have brought innovation and entrepreneurial spirit, with
    nearly half the Fortune 500 companies founded by immigrants or
    their children.
        We have, as our witness said, ``strong systems to ensure
    integrity with the terms of visa holders.'' There are already
    consequences for those who violate the terms of their visas.
    For example, committing marriage fraud to obtain an immigration
    benefit is already a Federal crime.
        Our visa system has been the pathway for ambition and
    opportunity for so much of the rest of the world. It is so
    disheartening to see the Trump Administration do everything it
    can to destroy the legal immigration system.
        I know this system very well. I might have come to one of
    the embassies that you were at. I came to the United States on
    a student visa and made my way through an alphabet soup of
    visas. It took me 17 years to become a U.S. citizen. I
    eventually ended up here as the first naturalized citizen to
    serve as Ranking Member of this Subcommittee in Congress on
    immigration.
        That is a testament to the amazing thing that can only
    happen in the United States of America.
        Mr. Nowrasteh, let me ask you, your testimony does a great
    job of showing the intense level of vetting students and other
    visa applicants receive when applying to come to this country.
    Tell the American citizen that is out there watching what the
    benefit is to them of having foreign students come to the
    United States and why it actually helps the United States if
    they decide to seek employment here after finishing their
    course of study?
        Mr. Nowrasteh. So, the benefits are extraordinary.
        Oftentimes foreign students are the first step in a long
    process, just like your process, of eventually getting an OPT,
    an H1-B Visa, then an employment-based Green Card, and then
    citizenship. That is the way that the immigration system has
    been set up in the United States.
        So, if we want to have these benefits of high school
    immigrants and entrepreneurs, people like Elon Musk who started
    here in the United States on these same ways, and millions of
    other people, then we need to maintain a large, open student
    visa system because it is the first link in that chain.
        Ms. Jayapal. Thank you.
        The Trump Administration has targeted student visa holders
    in all these different ways. There has been incredible chaos in
    the student visa system. There has been canceling of visas
    without warning, sending masked ICE officers to kidnap and
    disappear students, pausing visa interviews for student and
    exchange visas right when those applicants would normally be
    starting to apply for their visas.
        One student lost his status because of an issue with a
    fishing license.
        Another lost hers because she was a victim of domestic
    violence, and the police picked up both her and her abuser.
        About 15 percent of the foreign physicians who were
    supposed to come here to work at training hospitals when we
    have a real dearth of medical professionals who were unable to
    get their visas in time.
        How does all that chaos hurt our country and our ability to
    retain and attract top talent that we need here in America?
        Mr. Nowrasteh. The Trump Administration's sowing of chaos
    in the legal immigration system undermines much of what makes
    this country successful, great, and free.
        An economic uncertainty is a killer. This is one of the
    things that I learned in my education, that I saw around the
    world, and that you see in our practice. Nothing like
    uncertainty in employment, in legal residency, and in being
    able to be here sows devastation. It makes people's lives
    unsettled both for the immigrants and their American families,
    employers, friends, the schools where they are, their
    neighbors. It unsettles everything. It is devastating to this
    country. It is devastating to them, and it is devastating to
    future Americans.
        Ms. Jayapal. Let me turn to the absurd travel ban,
    arbitrary travel ban that President Trump announced. He alleges
    this travel ban is necessary to protect us from terrorist
    attacks and other national security threats.
        Is that true? Just yes or no.
        Mr. Nowrasteh. No.
        Ms. Jayapal. So, let me go through some examples.
        Given the recent events in Boulder, Colorado, why is Egypt
    not on the banned list? Egypt was also one of the countries,
    along with Saudi Arabia, the UAE, and Lebanon who were involved
    in 9/11.
        Your testimony, as you noted, 98 percent of the people
    killed in the United States by foreign terrorists were
    casualties of 9/11. Why are none of those countries on the
    banned list? Explain this to me, make some sense of it.
        Mr. Nowrasteh. I am sorry, but I can't explain something
    where there is absolutely no sense. It doesn't make any sense.
    It is totally arbitrary. It seems like a justification for
    reducing legal immigration that is divorced from any legitimate
    security, or national security, or anticrime perspective.
        It is just an arbitrary ban. I guarantee we are going to
    have more of them come down the line that are based on nothing
    more than the desire to reduce legal immigration.
        Ms. Jayapal. Thank you. Mr. Chair, I have a unanimous
    consent request to enter.
        Mr. Gill. Without objection.
        Ms. Jayapal. This is a press release from the Department of
    Homeland Security. It highlights that some of the Iranian
    nationals that recently were arrested and entered the country
    were ordered removed under the Trump Administration.
        Mr. Gill. Great.
        Ms. Jayapal. I yield back.
        Mr. Gill. Without objection. Now, the gentleman from
    Arizona, the great Mr. Biggs.
        Mr. Biggs. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
        In May, not one illegal alien was released into the United
    States. So, Mr. Nowrasteh, do you consider that to be a
    successful month?
        Mr. Nowrasteh. Yes.
        Mr. Biggs. Good. Good. I am always looking for
    accommodation and comity. We have some comity right there.
        Mr. Nowrasteh. I think we have more than that.
        Mr. Biggs. So, I don't know. We will find out.
        The most recent Congressional Border Security Caucus we had
    the ICE Director, Acting ICE Director Mr. Todd Lyons come in.
    Mr. Lyons was describing visa overstays.
        So, I would ask the panel, are you all familiar with the
    term ``visa overstays''? Mr. Brown? You need to answer out
    loud.
        Mr. Brown. Yes. Very familiar.
        Mr. Biggs. OK. Mr. Nowrasteh?
        Mr. Nowrasteh. Yes.
        Mr. Biggs. Mr. Hankinson?
        Mr. Hankinson. Yes.
        Mr. Biggs. Ms. Vaughan?
        Ms. Vaughan. Yes.
        Mr. Biggs. Let's talk about one visa overstay. I am
    thinking of the Egyptian fellow who went on a rampage, an
    antisemitic rampage, and attacked people in Boulder, Colorado.
        Did you know that he was a visa overstay, Ms. Vaughan, Ms.
    Vaughan?
        Ms. Vaughan. Yes.
        Mr. Biggs. What type of visa did he have before he
    overstayed?
        Ms. Vaughan. I don't think I have seen it confirmed. I
    believe it was a visitor visa, B1/B2.
        Mr. Biggs. That is what has been reported anyways; that it
    was a visitor visa.
        How many, Mr. Hankinson, how many visa overstays are there
    in the country right now, roughly? Microphone.
        Mr. Hankinson. Maybe a half million a year total overstays.
    Not all those are permanent. The figures are difficult to
    parse.
        Mr. Biggs. OK. So, when we look at visa overstays, I want
    to go back here now to, to Ms. Vaughan for a sec.
        Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the architect of the 9/11 attack,
    said that marriage fraud is a ``fantastic mechanism for
    terrorist operatives to acquire valid documents.''
        To you, Mr. Brown, do you agree with that?
        Mr. Brown. Absolutely.
        Mr. Biggs. You have given in your opening statement you
    talk about how marriage fraud enterprises work. How would you
    describe DHS's process for detecting marriage fraud, Mr. Brown?
        Do they do that? Can they do that?
        Mr. Brown. Their process is virtually nonexistent. When I
    referred to the deliberate dismantling of antifraud safeguards,
    this is a great example.
        For example, under the last administration one of the key
    frauds safeguards that Congress enacted in the Immigration
    Marriage Fraud Amendments Act of 1986 is they started waiving
    all immunities.
        When our clients reported fraud, do you know what they got
    back? Silence. Nothing.
        I want to make this point. We have obtained internal data
    from USCIS. From 2016-2019, a little subset, do you know what
    their fraud denial rate was for the marriage-based cases? Zero
    percent rounded to the nearest whole number.
        This is not accidental. Something is deeply, deeply wrong
    with our immigration system. There are a lot of innocent
    Americans who are suffering.
        Mr. Biggs. Thank you for that. Mr. Hankinson, what is the
    process like for vetting student visa applicants?
        Mr. Hankinson. Well, it is as good as we can make it. The
    interviews take just a couple of minutes. Most of the
    information that they provide can't be immediately verified.
        We probably get it right most of the time.
        Mr. Biggs. We have an ICE, the Acting ICE Director told us
    the other day that in re-looking at some of these student visas
    they had a student from China who was entering his 13th year of
    a baccalaureate degree program for a Bachelor's Degree. That
    seems, I don't know, I put kids through college and, thank
    goodness, none of them ever took 13 years to get through
    college.
        Ms. Vaughan, if a student commits a crime or otherwise does
    something that would disqualify them for continuing on the
    student visa, how does that get reported to ICE or the school?
        Ms. Vaughan. Well, if they are arrested for a State or
    local crime, ICE will get that information through the Secure
    Communities Program. ICE is not necessarily going to prioritize
    it because, as a student visa holder, they are entitled to more
    due process than, for example, someone who is in the country
    illegally and commits the same crime.
        Mr. Biggs. What the Director told us is that it is not
    often that they are notified. The school is rarely notified as
    well.
        Ms. Vaughan. Yes, the school wouldn't necessarily be
    notified.
        Mr. Biggs. As my time expires I would point out to my
    Committee Members that there has been some suggestions by Mr.
    Brown, Mr. Hankinson, and Ms. Vaughan on some ways to fix the
    visa system. I think it is worth reviewing.
        Then, I have got a couple of unanimous consents.
        This one is called ``What We Know About the Visa Obtained
    by Egyptian Man Who Injured a Dozen People in Colorado.''
        Another one by Mr. Hankinson actually, a commentary on the
    border security.
        Then, a letter that we sent to Secretary Mayorkas just a
    few months ago asking for information about marriage fraud with
    regard to visa status.
        Mr. Gill. Without objection.
        Mr. Biggs. Thank you.
        Mr. Gill. Without objection. Thank you, Mr. Biggs.
        Now, Mr. Raskin is recognized for five minutes.
        Mr. Raskin. Great. Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
        The distinguished gentleman from Arizona began by talking
    about visa overstays. So, Mr. Nowrasteh, I wanted to ask you
    about that.
        There has been a lot of discussion recently about a famous
    case of a visa overstay, that of Elon Musk, who had a student
    visa was granted to enter the country, and then didn't go to
    school, and said he never really wanted to go to school but
    stayed. He was able to get to work.
        I wonder, in your response to the gentleman from Arizona
    you said, or someone said that there was something like a half
    million people in this context. What are we doing about those
    visa overstays?
        Going back to your original comment, would we be better off
    if people like Elon Musk were kicked out of the country at that
    point, people who overstay a student visa or a work visa?
        Because my experience from traveling abroad is that
    oftentimes what we get in America is the most ambitious people,
    the people who want to work the hardest, create the businesses,
    win Pulitzer Prizes and Nobel Prizes, and so on. He would seem
    to fall into that example. I guess he is in a category of his
    own.
        Somebody who was very ambitious wanting to come here, but
    would we be better off making sure that everybody was kicked
    out of the country the day after their visa expired?
        Mr. Nowrasteh. We absolutely would not be better off. We
    would be substantially worse off if that were the case,
    especially in that example of Mr. Musk.
        The reason why he did what he did, with the student visas
    and the tricky H-1B situation and everything, was because there
    was no other way for him to come to this country lawfully.
        It is absurd that in this country, which has been built by
    immigrants, all of us are descendants of immigrants here in
    this country today, we have a proud history of being open, that
    there is no other way for him to come here lawfully to open
    businesses, to try his metal, to create new firms that are
    multibillion dollar, trillion dollars of value that he has
    created in the world, and other people like him.
        The government should focus on the security threats. They
    should focus on criminals. They could go after these folks,
    like ICE went after these Iranians in the last couple of days,
    many of whom had criminal convictions. They should not be
    wasting their time on people with expired fishing licenses who
    are student visas.
        Now, the government does do a good amount now, especially
    under this administration trying to track down some of these
    overstays. It is not a high priority because they need to go
    after criminals, national security threats, and people like
    that.
        Every dollar they spend, and every minute they waste going
    after noncriminals and non-people who aren't national security
    threats, is a waste.
        Mr. Raskin. OK. I think you are intimating views that are
    congruent with my own, which are, we should make it much, much
    more difficult for people to get into America illegally, and
    much easier for people to get into the country legally and
    lawfully.
        That we have bipartisan convergence around the first issue
    that we want to make it difficult to get in the country
    illegally. We seem to disagree about the importance or the
    value of allowing people to get into the country lawfully.
        I think that our temporary Chair here said, and please
    correct me if I am wrong, ``mass migration is the single
    biggest existential threat to our country today.''
        What do you think about that as setting aside climate
    change, terrorism, social, and racial division, is mass
    migration the biggest threat to our country?
        If we had massive lawful migration, would that be a bad
    thing for America?
        Mr. Nowrasteh. The overuse of the word existential is a
    prime example of threat inflation, of trying to terrify people
    for no good reason. The idea that the existence of the United
    States is threatened by immigration is absurd. It is just the
    opposite.
        The future of the United States is guaranteed and enhanced
    by immigration to this country. It is what will guarantee
    growth.
        If there was no immigration, for instance, starting right
    now, the population of this country will start to shrink in the
    mid-2040s. There will be fewer Americans, there will be a
    smaller America unless we expand or at least, at least continue
    the legal immigration that we have now.
        Mr. Raskin. OK. Why do you think immigration has become
    such a vexed political problem?
        I know historically we have gone through periods of anti-
    immigration fervor and xenophobia. If we have got the grounds
    for bipartisan compromise, as we have seen repeatedly, why do
    some people keep on wanting to use this as a political club?
        Mr. Nowrasteh. It is obviously a vote getter. It obviously
    infuriates a lot of people. To be totally fair to these folks
    who I disagree with, I do think people see chaos and they
    really don't like it. Right?
        The chaos is caused by our restrictive immigration system
    overwhelmingly. If we want to get control in the long-term, we
    need to do what you suggest, which is expand legal immigration
    opportunities to the United States.
        Enforcement matters, but legal immigration matters a ton
    too.
        Mr. Knott. [Presiding.] Time has expired. Thank you. We now
    recognize Mr. Tiffany.
        Mr. Tiffany. Mr. Nowrasteh, do you believe the immigration
    system improved under the Biden Administration?
        Mr. Nowrasteh. Under some ways, yes. In some ways, no. It
    is a very large complex system, as you know. It is second in
    complexity only to the income tax.
        Mr. Tiffany. Your colleague, David Bier, was here about six
    months ago, and he said ``yes, the immigration system improved
    under the Biden Administration.''
        What is the change here regarding Cato's position?
        Mr. Nowrasteh. The Cato Institute doesn't have positions.
    The scholars at the Cato Institute do. If you want to narrow in
    on the legal immigration system, then I agree with my colleague
    David, that the legal immigration system did improve during the
    Biden Administration.
        There are large other sections of immigration that have to
    do with enforcement, other categories--
        Mr. Tiffany. They are going around telling people around
    the country here today that hey, I am going to split hairs.
        I am going to tell people that this one subset of
    immigration, hey, things are just fine in the United States of
    America, it is all good, when they understand this as a broader
    part of the immigration system as a whole, which has been a
    complete failure.
        Mr. Nowrasteh. Well sir, I don't work on talking points
    like that. I am interested in facts, and the legal immigration
    system is not just fine. I have spent my career talking about
    how we need to expand legal immigration.
        I don't go around saying it is just fine. I said that
    things have improved. No, I don't go around talking about--
        Mr. Tiffany. Sir, don't filibuster. I have got questions to
    ask, and I only have five minutes.
        So, you are saying here, vetting is effective, and the visa
    process is secure. You stand by that, right?
        Mr. Nowrasteh. Absolutely.
        Mr. Tiffany. How did 350,00 children come into America that
    we have no idea where they are at, at the end of the Biden
    Administration? How are there 600,00 criminal aliens in this
    country that committed, oftentimes, violent crimes? Everything
    from attempted murder, to carjacking, to--
        Mr. Nowrasteh. The vast majority of those did not go
    through the legal immigration system. That is entirely the
    point that we are trying to make here today, is that they did
    not go through legal immigration.
        If they did, then most of those people would have been kept
    out.
        Mr. Tiffany. It is because of this administration, which
    you said--
        Mr. Nowrasteh. This administration did a good job.
        Mr. Tiffany. Did a good job in some ways. The previous
    administration, they just let people come in without being able
    to get a visa.
        So, does your data that you purport to put out there that
    proves this, does it include the death of Steven Nasholm, a
    truck driver in Rusk County, Wisconsin, up where I live, who
    left behind three daughters, does that include him in the data?
        He is dead as a result of an illegal alien running him off
    the road.
        Mr. Nowrasteh. The evidence that we have is dependent on--
        Mr. Tiffany. Does it include the two children in
    Abbotsford, Wisconsin--
        Mr. Nowrasteh. It includes all people who are convicted of
    crimes in this country, sir.
        Mr. Tiffany. Who are dead--
        Mr. Nowrasteh. All people who are arrested, and all people
    who are incarcerated for crimes in the United States during
    multiple years, including the great State of Texas, which has
    wonderful data, the best crime data out there, confirms my
    research.
        Every death and every murder, the tragedy and those
    individual criminals should be punished to the fullest extent
    of the law. That is not a reason to punish other people who are
    not criminals--
        Mr. Tiffany. Mr. Nowrasteh, are they in the data?
        Mr. Nowrasteh. For that.
        Mr. Tiffany. Are they in the data?
        Mr. Nowrasteh. Of course.
        Mr. Tiffany. Are the 100,000 children that died of
    fentanyl--or young people, the No. 1 killer of young people in
    America ages what, 21-45, fentanyl.
        Do you include the fentanyl deaths?
        Mr. Nowrasteh. Do you mean the people who voluntarily took
    fentanyl and overdosed under that tragic situation? No, those
    are not homicides, sir.
        Mr. Tiffany. Do you mean the communist Chinese who sent the
    precursors over here, and then the cartels who--
        Mr. Nowrasteh. Are we talking about the drug war now? We
    are talking about the drug war?
        Mr. Tiffany. Through them sent in--and, by the way, they
    sent it in being carried by people who are coming in with the
    immigration system.
        Mr. Nowrasteh. Why don't you count the automobile imported
    that also caused accidents.
        Mr. Tiffany. Do you have that in your data? Have you done,
    in your data, have you reviewed the impact on wages for those
    who are in the lowest--
        Mr. Nowrasteh. Sure.
        Mr. Tiffany. Economic strata with these millions of people
    coming into America, taking their jobs? I will end there.
        Mr. Nowrasteh. Of course. I have vast economic literature
    on that this contradicts your data.
        Mr. Tiffany. Ms. Vaughan, share with us, has there been an
    impact on Americans' earnings as a result of illegal
    immigration?
        Ms. Vaughan. There is no question that illegal immigration
    causes unfair competition, costing people job opportunities,
    depressing their wages, and causing those millions of Americans
    who have dropped out of the labor market to have trouble
    getting back into it. No question.
        Mr. Tiffany. It is clear they are making less money.
        Ms. Vaughan. Yes.
        Mr. Tiffany. That should be included in any dataset when we
    are considering what we should do with immigration. Is that
    correct?
        Ms. Vaughan. That is the inevitable result. That is supply
    and demand. When you increase the supply of labor, distort the
    labor markets, you are going to get lower wages.
        Mr. Nowrasteh. Supply and demand. You are only talking
    about supply. These immigrants are coming--
        Mr. Knott. Mr. Nowrasteh, you are out of order. You are out
    of order.
        Mr. Tiffany. No, no. I will direct the questions to you,
    sir. Mr. Hankinson,--
        Mr. Nowrasteh. I am not asking a question.
        Mr. Tiffany. Was there a cost to the fentanyl deaths here
    in America?
        Mr. Hankinson. The open border made it a lot easier to
    bring in a lot of drugs. A lot of drugs killed, as you said,
    about 66,000 people, just fentanyl alone, in one year.
        Mr. Tiffany. How much do you value a life?
        Mr. Hankinson. You can't put a price on a human life.
        Mr. Tiffany. I yield back.
        Mr. Knott. The Chair recognizes Mr. Nadler.
        Mr. Nadler. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, Republicans
    love to claim that while they oppose illegal immigration, they
    are for legal immigration.
        The Trump Administration is doing everything it can to slow
    down or entirely stop legal immigration to the United States.
    Would you agree with that, Mr. Nowrasteh?
        Mr. Nowrasteh. Yes. Yes.
        Mr. Nadler. Under this administration, we have seen attacks
    on Green Card holders for exercising their free speech rights.
    We have seen a complete shutdown of the refugee program, and
    the relentless assault on student visas.
        Would you agree with that?
        Mr. Nowrasteh. Absolutely, sir.
        Mr. Nadler. Thank you. The Department of State is revoking
    the visas of students in the United States without any
    transparency, while ICE is terminating the legal status of
    students, and in some cases, not even informing them or their
    respective institutions. Would you agree with that?
        Mr. Nowrasteh. That is absolutely true. It is a total
    travesty. It is a poor way to run an immigration system. It is
    bad for the United States that this is happening like that.
        Mr. Nadler. According to recent reports, more than 1,800
    students and recent graduates across 280 colleges and
    universities have had their visas revoked. Is that true?
        Mr. Nowrasteh. As far as I know, in the most recent data I
    have seen, yes. This is changing, of course, all the time,
    because the administration is so aggressively antilegal
    immigration. It is hard to keep up with the new numbers.
        Mr. Nadler. Thank you. Mr. Nowrasteh, isn't it true that
    ever since World War II, the United States has followed a
    policy of attracting people from other countries to come and
    study in the United States, and that this policy has led to
    tremendous scientific, military, and computer advancements that
    have helped make America the strongest, most technologically
    developed country in the world?
        Mr. Nowrasteh. That is absolutely true. In fact, economist
    Charles Jones, who is one of the preeminent experts in economic
    growth, has found that the increase in technicians and
    scientists and engineers, largely a lot of it fueled by
    immigration in the post-World War II period, can explain about
    half the productivity growth up through the 1990s.
        A tremendous increase and which resulted in a tremendous
    increase in wages, in new inventions, and economic growth that
    has made all our lives better.
        Mr. Nadler. You would agree, I assume, that we risk turning
    the greatest minds in the world away from the United States if
    we treat international students like criminals?
        Mr. Nowrasteh. That is absolutely one of the biggest risks.
    The things that worry me the most, is what genius
    entrepreneurs, like Elon Musk, or what great scientists, like
    the woman whose name escapes me right now, but who helped
    discover the mRNA vaccine, are we turning away? What is the
    loss?
        Mr. Nadler. Jennifer Doudna.
        Mr. Nowrasteh. I am sorry?
        Mr. Nadler. Jennifer Doudna.
        Mr. Nowrasteh. She is, yes, an incredible, brilliant genius
    whose work has helped save millions and millions of lives
    around the world. If she weren't allowed in here, I just doubt
    that she would have been able to make those discoveries and
    contributions in a country like Hungary.
        Mr. Nadler. Thank you. Now, Mr. Nowrasteh, the replacement
    rate to keep the population steady, is 2.1 births per woman.
        The rate in the United States is 1.6 per woman. Now,
    obviously, this will result eventually in fewer Americans. I
    think you mentioned that.
        What is the effect of having fewer and fewer Americans,
    more and more people of advancing age to be supported by fewer
    people in prime earning years?
        Mr. Nowrasteh. The economic effects are devastating. They
    are much slower economic growth and slower wage growth. We can
    see an advanced example of this in East Asia, especially in the
    country of Japan, which has had lower fertility, a low
    replacement for decades now.
        It is no doubt that American fertility is below
    replacement, as you said. It will likely fall further. The only
    thing that is propelling growth in a good way, and has for a
    long period of time, is immigration to the United States.
        Supporting less immigration through the United States is
    the same as supporting a smaller America, with fewer Americans,
    a less dynamic economy, and one where we have less of a
    footprint in the world. That is tragedy.
        Mr. Nadler. One where more people of working age have to
    support, I am sorry, fewer people of working age have to
    support more people of advanced age, threatening our social
    security system.
        Mr. Nowrasteh. That is right. It definitely exacerbates the
    insolvency issues with Social Security and Medicare. It will
    bring on those problems faster and in a more severe way.
        One of the best ways to maintain, and even the Social
    Security Administration acknowledges this when they model out
    their Social Security predictions, expanding legal immigration
    does help extend the life of these programs.
        Mr. Nadler. What do we risk losing if the United States
    becomes perceived as a less welcoming destination for
    international students?
        Mr. Nowrasteh. The United States will lose one of the great
    selling points and attractions for this country. The attraction
    of opportunity has enticed so many of our ancestors to come
    here over the centuries.
        A part of what it means to be an American and, in this
    country, is the openness to immigration. That has been part of
    our history forever.
        We are all the products of that. This wonderful vast
    country is a product of it. There are a hundred times more
    Americans today than when this country was founded. We are
    better off because of it. I want to see a future with more
    Americans.
        Mr. Nadler. Thank you. My time has expired. I yield back.
        Mr. Knott. Thank you, sir. The Chair recognizes Mr. Roy.
        Mr. Roy. I thank the Chair. I thank the Chair for calling
    this hearing.
        Mr. Nowrasteh, I assume that when you say you would like a
    future with more Americans, that includes Jocelyn Nungaray?
        Do you know Jocelyn Nungaray? Have you talked to her
    mother, Alexa?
        Mr. Nowrasteh. I know her. She was murdered by an illegal
    immigrant in Houston.
        Mr. Roy. People who were released into this country with a
    notice to appear in court, did not appear, and then violently
    killed a young woman, and is now dead. Her mother lost her.
        She is one of dozens, hundreds, thousands of examples of
    Americans who are dead because of policies that were advocated
    for by the Biden Administration and people parading around as
    libertarians.
        Ms. Vaughan.
        Mr. Nowrasteh. Parading around as libertarians? What does
    that mean?
        Mr. Roy. Ms. Vaughan, is there--it means exactly what it
    means.
        Mr. Knott. You are out of order, Mr. Nowrasteh.
        Mr. Roy. It is my time, not yours.
        Mr. Nowrasteh. I take that as a personal outright attack.
        Mr. Roy. It is my time, not yours.
        Mr. Nowrasteh. I take objection to that.
        Mr. Roy. I don't have any time to listen to libertarian
    claptrap--
        Mr. Nowrasteh. I know you don't have any time to listen.
        Mr. Roy. That is killing Americans. Because that is what
    you are doing. You are hiding behind a brand--
        Mr. Nowrasteh. Killing Americans?
        Mr. Roy. That is resulting in the death of Americans.
        Mr. Nowrasteh. That is a heck of a thing to say to
    somebody, sir. That is totally false.
        Mr. Roy. Mr. Nowrasteh, you are out of order.
        Mr. Nowrasteh. I take exception to that.
        Mr. Roy. Well, it is true. It is true and everybody in
    American knows it.
        Mr. Nowrasteh. I am not killing anybody, sir. That is--
        Mr. Roy. Ms. Vaughan--
        Mr. Nowrasteh. Completely exceptional, even for you.
        Mr. Roy. Ms. Vaughan--then you go talk to Alexa Nungaray
    and talk about her daughter no longer being with us.
        Mr. Nowrasteh. Beneath you--
        Mr. Knott. Out of order.
        Mr. Nowrasteh. To even say that to somebody, sir.
        Mr. Roy. Ms. Vaughan, on June 25, 2024, DHS Office of
    Inspector General released a report entitled ``CVP has Limited
    Information to Assess, Interview, Waive Non-Immigrant Visa
    Holders.''
        Are you familiar with that report?
        Ms. Vaughan. Yes.
        Mr. Roy. In that report, is it not true, it says here that
    the report found the Biden Administration expanded a COVID era
    policy of waiving visa applicant interviews and fingerprint
    collecting, to reduce visa backlogs and staffing shortages,
    which worsened at the peak of the pandemic.
        Is that correct?
        Ms. Vaughan. Yes.
        Mr. Roy. Biden took this COVID era policy to admit over
    seven million foreign nationals from across the globe into the
    United States. Does that sound correct?
        Ms. Vaughan. Well, yes. The numbers in later years are more
    like nine million a year.
        Mr. Roy. Certainly, significant numbers of people,
    millions, without having DHS interview them?
        Ms. Vaughan. Yes.
        Mr. Roy. The DHS failed to fingerprint an unknown number of
    visa applicants during the 2020-2023 period, correct?
        Ms. Vaughan. Yes. Actually part of that responsibility is
    on the State Department as well.
        Mr. Roy. Do you find this discovery particularly troubling?
        Ms. Vaughan. Absolutely. It underscores how much the Biden
    Administration, and others before it, emphasized swiftness in
    processing. Just moving these applications through, getting to
    the yes, rubber stamping approvals, over making the correct
    decision.
        It emphasizes that vetting is not just a matter of looking
    people up in a data base that may or may not have relevant
    information to the decision. Interviews are a way for them to
    establish the credibility of the applicant and whether they
    actually qualify for the visa.
        Mr. Roy. I want to ask you about the Visa Waiver Program as
    well. It ostensibly does not require an alien to possess a visa
    to enter the country, correct?
        Ms. Vaughan. Correct.
        Mr. Roy. It is a gaping vulnerability in our legal
    immigration system, right?
        Ms. Vaughan. Inherently, yes.
        Mr. Roy. With respect to that, are you familiar with the
    South American theft groups, particularly Chile, who commit
    burglary tourism through the Visa Waiver Program?
        Ms. Vaughan. I have heard a lot about them from law
    enforcement agencies.
        Mr. Roy. For a time, Chile AVWP program refused to provide
    U.S. authorities the required background information on its
    nationals seeking entry to the United States, despite entering
    into a security shared agreement in 2013.
        Are you familiar with that?
        Ms. Vaughan. Yes.
        Mr. Roy. So, I sent a letter to DHS Secretary Noem and
    Secretary, State Department Secretary Rubio, to alert them to
    Chile's abuse. I would like to insert that into the record
    without objection.
        Mr. Knott. Without objection.
        Mr. Roy. The DHS informed my office that Chile is now
    apparently complying with the agreed on security agreements.
    However, because so many Chilean criminals have established
    theft rings across the Nation thanks to the VWP, these theft
    groups have recruited Chile nationals with no criminal record
    to enter the U.S. through the VWP to commit burglary tourism.
        Are you familiar with that extension?
        Ms. Vaughan. Yes. Yes.
        Mr. Roy. It is a real problem. This is the kind of thing
    that multiplies when we have a lack of seriousness on these
    issues, correct?
        Ms. Vaughan. Correct. It exists with Irish contractors in
    the Boston area as well. They totally exploit these people.
        Mr. Roy. Last question here. With respect to the U Visa
    Program, that presents an opportunity for alleged illegal alien
    crime victims to obtain work authorization and protection from
    deportation, correct?
        Ms. Vaughan. Yes.
        Mr. Roy. On January 6, 2022, the DHS OIG again, released a
    report entitled ``USCIS U Visa Program is not managed
    effectively, and it is susceptible to fraud,'' correct?
        Ms. Vaughan. Yes.
        Mr. Roy. I could go through a whole litany of things, but I
    don't have the time to do that. I would like to just
    acknowledge that problem, that OIG has recognized another
    problem, and I will just finish with this since I represent the
    Southwest corner of Austin, don't blame me for the downtown
    Austin stuff.
        Mr. Brown, I would like you to be able to have a minute to
    expand just a little bit further on how that abuse of the U
    Visa Program affected your life because of what we allowed to
    occur, and what that did to you and your family.
        Mr. Brown. My wife still has trouble talking about it. It
    felt like we were under siege. It was confusing, we had no idea
    what was going on.
        If I didn't have the background that I have, a little bit
    of law, a little bit of homeland security, I am not sure most
    people would even know what happened.
        That is my biggest concern is that people who are
    victimized like this, they don't know. If they don't know that
    a U Visa Program exists, how will they ever know to ask for
    that discovery?
        Mr. Knott. Time has expired.
        Mr. Brown. We have some prosecutors who we know refuse to
    disclose or even certify U Visas until after a case is
    concluded.
        Mr. Knott. The gentleman's time has expired.
        Mr. Brown. There is something called the Brady Doctrine.
        Mr. Roy. Yes, the gentleman is correct. I appreciate the
    gentleman's testimony. Sorry that this occurred to you.
        I yield back.
        Mr. Knott. The Chair recognizes Representative Scanlon.
        Ms. Scanlon. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I thought this was
    supposed to be one hearing where we weren't focused on illegal
    crossings at the border, but instead were going to look at
    reforms to our legal immigration and our visa programs.
        Apparently some of our folks didn't get the memo. Look,
    since the first day of this administration, it has been clear
    that it is chaotic.
        Often a lawless immigration agenda is based on a false
    choice, one that mistakenly asserts that to keep Americans
    safe, we have to slam our doors to the world, ignore the laws
    and values that this Nation has been built on and our very
    history, reject the people and traditions that have actually
    made our country great, and turn our backs on a critical source
    of labor to support and expand our economy and especially our
    healthcare systems.
        This administration has claimed to only be going after the
    worst of the worst. Day after day, instead of hardened
    criminals, we see them going after hardworking people with no
    criminal records, who are being ripped from their workplaces,
    schools, the courts where they are pursuing their legal
    immigration remedies, et cetera.
        We see people with legal status having had the rug pulled
    out from under them, including our Afghan allies. These are
    folks who had our troops' backs during that conflict and came
    here legally on temporary protected status, and now they are
    facing deportation.
        Refugee resettlement has all but been shut down. People who
    have already completed the complicated and arduous vetting and
    security process have been left high and dry, often placing
    them and their families in dangerous conditions overseas.
        This administration is now targeting international
    students, people here to learn from and contribute to our
    universities, our economy, innovation, and to our healthcare
    systems.
        It is penalizing Green Card holders for expressing opinions
    that this administration doesn't agree with, despite the plain
    language of the First Amendment.
        Ultimately, despite all the rhetoric we are hearing, these
    actions hurt our economy, hamper our ability to compete with
    other countries on the global stage, and really damage our
    reputation worldwide.
        We are already seeing the figure was a $12 billion decrease
    in tourism, as people are afraid to come here. They don't like
    what they are seeing.
        For centuries, America has been a shining city on a hill. A
    place where the world's best and brightest seek to come and
    contribute and be successful in a culture of innovation and
    achievement. That is being tarnished. It is just moving away
    from that tradition in the wrong direction.
        Mr. Nowrasteh, my district is home to a bunch of colleges
    and universities, many of which have 10-15 percent foreign
    students. Revoking their visas without transparency,
    terminating their legal status, seems like it is a big problem.
        I hear from these universities that one of the reasons they
    like having international students, aside from the different
    perspectives they bring, the different knowledge they dollars
    without student loans.
        Can you talk a little bit about what is happening with
    respect to the decrease in international students?
        Mr. Nowrasteh. Yes. They do bring in a lot of dollars. The
    American educational services are a large export of the United
    States.
        This administration talks frequently about wanting to close
    the trade deficit, which is frankly an economically meaningless
    term. If they were really interested in that, they would
    actually liberalize student visas, because it actually
    increases exports.
        It is a very valuable one. The biggest benefit, of course,
    is what these people do if they do end up staying here. The
    firms that they found, the skills that they learn, the extra
    goods and services that they supply that make all our lives
    better off.
        Ms. Scanlon. This Committee had a hearing on February 15,
    2022, on the essential role of immigrant physicians to American
    healthcare. Have you looked at that at all?
        We have a lot of folks come here to get their medical
    degrees. Many would like to stay. We have tens of thousands of
    doctor vacancies in this country right now. We have had foreign
    physicians filling those gaps.
        Can you speak about that issue at all?
        Mr. Nowrasteh. I can speak a little bit about that. Foreign
    immigrants are overrepresented in most medical suboccupations.
    They contribute mightily to this.
        The United States has about 4-5 percent of the world's
    population. It would be extraordinarily accidental if those
    people who are born here happen to be the best of the best.
        We really punch above our weight when it comes to that.
    There are a lot of talented foreigners out there who could be
    great American physicians and medical professionals. It is
    pretty absurd that we make it difficult for so many of them to
    come in.
        Mr. Knott. Time has expired.
        Ms. Scanlon. Thank you.
        Mr. Knott. Thank you. The Chair recognizes Representative
    Van Drew.
        Mr. Van Drew. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I want to condense this
    down. Let's be clear, nobody here on this side, I am not
    against legal immigration.
        We are against breaking the law. We want to make this
    complicated. Not you all, I am not blaming you, but in general,
    it is not complicated. We don't want the law to be broken.
        The abuse that is going on, or did go on, is causing the
    American people to lose faith in our immigration system. That
    is the worst of it, and I am going to emphasize this over and
    over again.
        Unfortunately, folks on the Left, folks on the other side,
    it is even happening today, they will talk about doctors, and
    teachers, and scientists coming over, and how we are going to
    stop that. They are going to not want to come over.
        They are not the ones we are concerned with. Scientists and
    doctors are coming over legally. They are going through the
    system. They are actually getting hurt because of what has
    happened over the last number of years with the illegals coming
    in, because Americans are getting somewhat confused,
    unfortunately.
        Let's not blur this. Nobody is against legal immigration of
    good people coming to America. That is the way America was
    built.
        As many times as the other folks on the other side will
    say, immigration, I am going to keep qualifying, we are talking
    about illegal activity and illegal immigration. Worst of all,
    we keep doing this over and over again.
        Under Joe Biden, the problem wasn't just illegal entry at
    the border and is what we are here to talk about today. It was
    our legal visa processing system.
        For years that administration opened the floodgates. They
    allowed criminals in. They allowed individuals that were
    indicted in their own country or indicted here.
        They allowed individuals that were convicted in their own
    country or convicted here. We had people on the terror watch
    list, and I am not the only one saying that.
        We had the FBI Director, the previous FBI Director here
    under the Biden Administration, no friend of mine, don't
    particularly care for him, but he said America was more
    dangerous than ever before in its entire history. That has got
    nothing to do with Trump. He wasn't President yet.
        Let's cut it out. It is telling the truth time. It is time
    to be honest. Programs that were designed to bring in skilled
    workers, students, and seasonal labor have been twisted into a
    gateway for the wrong people to come into our country.
        The bad actors were allowed to skip the line, and all while
    good people that were mentioned and are mixed in, were pushed
    to the back of the line. The people that we do want to come to
    America.
        That Boulder terrorist, anybody look at his social media
    content? He was involved in pro-Muslim Brotherhood propaganda.
        It was supposed to be a red flag. It usually is a red flag,
    I guess, but it wasn't red flagged. It appears no one actually
    screened this guy.
        Meanwhile, I am going to say it again, because I really
    want to pound this in, law-abiding good immigrants who do it
    properly, they are waiting for years, and I would actually
    agree sometimes too long. They are good people. They love
    America. Some of them love America more than the people who are
    born here in America, because the system is overwhelmed by
    fraud and abuse.
        The more we let bad actors come into the system, the more
    it becomes harder for the good actors to succeed and make their
    way to America. We have got programs that are good.
        People come here for a while, and they stay. Some of them
    become citizens. Some come and go back every year, and they
    work hard. Those are good people.
        We are screwing them. We are giving them the short end of
    the stick. That is why it is so hypocritical to mix in the bad
    folks with the good folks the way we are when we converse and
    debate about it.
        A secure legal immigration system is not anti-immigrant. It
    is pro-American, and it is pro-immigrant. We need to restore
    that integrity. Let's stop letting bad people abuse the system.
        I got some questions for you real fast. Like when you vote,
    you got to vote for this one or that one, I simply want a yes
    or a no answer. I don't want a whole long thing Mr. Nowrasteh.
    I want a yes or a no.
        Are Americans safer when we stop thoroughly vetting visa
    applicants? Ms. Vaughan, you start.
        Ms. Vaughan. No.
        Mr. Hankinson. No.
        Mr. Nowrasteh. No.
        Mr. Brown. No.
        Mr. Van Drew. Good. Should foreign nationals with radical
    or anti-American social media be denied visas?
        Ms. Vaughan. Yes.
        Mr. Hankinson. Yes.
        Mr. Nowrasteh. Broadly. It depends. I am a free speech
    absolutist.
        Mr. Van Drew. Yes or no?
        Mr. Nowrasteh. I am a free speech absolutist. I believe
    in--
        Mr. Van Drew. It is yes or no.
        Mr. Nowrasteh. --the First Amendment of the United States.
        Mr. Van Drew. When you vote you don't get to--
        Mr. Nowrasteh. So, I guess no. As a First Amendment
    believer or no.
        Mr. Van Drew. --when you vote, don't talk over me. This is
    my time, not yours.
        Mr. Nowrasteh. I know.
        Mr. Van Drew. When you vote, you have to make a decision.
    Is it fair to legal immigrants who wait years, to let visa
    overstays apply for work permits after they broke the law? Yes
    or no?
        Ms. Vaughan. No.
        Mr. Hankinson. No.
        Mr. Nowrasteh. Yes.
        Mr. Brown. No.
        Mr. Van Drew. Should someone who was, last one, should
    someone who was--
        Ms. Crockett. Time.
        Mr. Van Drew. I am out of time? OK. I yield back, Mr.
    Chair.
        Ms. Jayapal. Mr. Chair, I have two quick unanimous consent
    requests.
        Mr. Knott. Yes, ma'am.
        Ms. Jayapal. The first one is an article from NBC News
    entitled, ``Hundreds of International Doctors Due to Start
    Medical Residencies are in Visa Limbo.''
        The second one is because we have had so much conversation
    on overstays, it is the Homeland Security Fiscal Year 2023
    Entry/Exit Overstay Report that specifically says that the
    overstay rate is 1.02 percent.
        Mr. Knott. Without objection, admitted. The Chair
    recognizes Representative Ross.
        Ms. Ross. Thank you, Mr. Chair and the Ranking Member for
    holding this hearing. I am going to try to overlap in a
    positive way with Mr. Van Drew and talk about what we need to
    enhance legal immigration.
        I am absolutely convinced that we can fix our immigration
    system to deal with illegal immigration, the overstay
    situation, obviously, we are working on the border. We can walk
    and chew gum at the same time.
        Both the Chair and I represent one of the fastest growing
    areas in this country in North Carolina. Every day, and we just
    came back from being in our districts, I hear from the
    agriculture sector, the largest sector, economic sector in
    North Carolina, the hospitality industry, the construction
    industry, we have talked about the medical industry, the
    research industry, that they need more workers and they need to
    have people who can get their visas.
        They need better H-1B processing. They need better H-2B
    visa processing. They want to hire people who are legal. We
    have a backlog.
        We have not increased many of these visa quotas in more
    than 30 years. People want to come into this area. We are
    growing.
        We have amazing institutions of higher education, educating
    lots of people from the United States. I am very big on
    increasing the pipeline from the United States. As we have
    discussed, in North Carolina, there simply are not enough
    people for our growing economy.
        Increasing pathways to legal immigration is either the
    first or the second highest priority for the North Carolina
    Farm Bureau, the North Carolina Chamber of Commerce, the North
    Carolina Homebuilders, our education institutions.
        Mr. Nowrasteh, can you tell us how we could fix some of the
    problems that we are hearing with our visa system, and expand
    opportunities for more of these people to get legal visas?
        These employers in my district and in my State, who are
    generating all the economic prosperity, want to do it the right
    way.
        Mr. Nowrasteh. The major problem with the legal immigration
    system in the U.S. is that it is far too restrictive, it is far
    too complicated, it is far too burdensome. It is the second
    most complicated portion of American law after the income tax.
        Now, I am just a humble supporter of the free market, but
    people should be able to go back and forth based on where they
    are demanded, where their opportunities are, and where people
    want to buy and sell from them and to them.
        We need to expand these opportunities for low-skilled
    workers in areas like agriculture, but also create a visa for
    construction workers. We need to create a visa for
    manufacturing, for all different types and for every sector of
    the American economy.
        For mid-skill workers, for people who are higher-skilled,
    make it easier for them to come in, some of them temporarily
    and some of them permanently. At a minimum, the thing that we
    can do is create a visa for entrepreneurs, which this country
    entirely lacks.
        That is the no-brainer here. That is the biggest no-brainer
    around.
        Ms. Ross. Mr. Nowrasteh, we have only touched on this, I
    have, ever since I got here, been one of the primary sponsors
    of a bipartisan bicameral bill to deal with what we call the
    documented dreamers, the children of H-1B visa holders who come
    over here before they weren't born here.
        Sometimes their siblings are U.S. citizens, but they are
    not. They literally age out of their visas when they are 21
    years old. The backlog is so long that they will never be able
    to get a visa or become a U.S. citizen.
        They are the children of highly educated people. Most of
    them are in college. We have paid for their education. Now, we
    are deporting them to countries that we compete with.
        What do you say to those documented dreamers who I have
    been fighting so hard for?
        Mr. Nowrasteh. You should be allowed to stay in the United
    States. You should be allowed to become an American citizen.
    You should be allowed to use your talents, your skills, and
    your grit to do well here.
        The one thing we know about children doing well, or how
    well they are going to do in life, is it is related to their
    parents. The H-1Bs who come to the United States do
    extraordinarily well.
        They have above the 90th percentile in wages in the United
    States. Their kids are going to do about as well as they do if
    we let them, if the government lets them succeed.
        All we need to do is get out of their way. All we need to
    do is take the government out of this equation to legalize
    these folks and allow them to do what they want to do, which is
    to succeed and become Americans.
        Ms. Ross. Thank you. I yield back.
        Mr. Knott. Thank you, Ms. Ross. The Chair now recognizes
    myself for five minutes.
        Ms. Vaughan, one of my greatest frustrations is the
    conflating of illegal versus legal. No one up here is against
    legal. We all want to strengthen it.
        It is very hard to be prolegal immigration and pro-illegal
    immigration. This notion that we are the recipients of only the
    best and the brightest, only those who refuse to commit crimes,
    only those who give more than they take from this country, that
    is not necessarily the case in any way, shape, or form as it
    relates to illegal immigrants.
        I am a former Federal prosecutor. I saw a lot of the people
    that were coming across the border, many of whom we had no idea
    who they were. We had no idea that they were here until they
    committed some grievous act.
        Can you paint the other side of this coin, ma'am, and talk
    about the tolls that this country has received and been
    victimized by as it relates to illegal immigration?
        Ms. Vaughan. Wow. Let me count the ways. I do want to
    address one quick--
        Mr. Knott. Please.
        Ms. Vaughan. Beforehand, and that is that, we have talked
    about good people coming here through some of the legal
    programs.
        We also need to remember that our student visa programs,
    and our exchange visitor programs, and some of the work
    programs would be far more successful if the people who
    benefited from those programs went back to their home country
    and helped enrich and advance their home countries.
        That is part of the original purpose of these types of
    programs. I don't think we should always talk in terms of
    trying to get people to stay here.
        As far as the costs of illegal immigration, they are
    numerous. It causes labor market distortions that harm
    Americans. The fiscal costs are huge. The CBO just came out
    with a report detailing those costs.
        The worst cost is the public safety and national security
    threats that occur when we allow people in.
        Mr. Knott. Just off the top of your head, do you know how
    many Americans died in 1990 from drug overdoses?
        Ms. Vaughan. I do not.
        Mr. Knott. It was roughly 4,500. Do you know how many have
    died in the last 20 years from drug overdoses?
        Ms. Vaughan. I do not.
        Mr. Knott. Almost 1.2 million. I know there was an effort
    to delineate the role that illegal immigration plays in the
    drug culture, drug crimes, violent crime, and so forth, but can
    you separate America's problem, and addiction and death, from
    drugs and crime, from illegal immigration?
        Ms. Vaughan. No. There is a direct nexus with transnational
    crime and an insecure border in this. That is very well
    established, and you cannot separate the two.
        Mr. Knott. Mr. Hankinson, in regard to your experience and
    your expertise, did the Biden Administration, again, going back
    to this construct, legal versus illegal immigration, did they
    do anything to prevent illegal immigration from only
    accelerating in this country?
        Mr. Hankinson. No. That they did the opposite. They wanted
    to conflate all immigration into migrants, so that there was no
    distinction between legal and illegal.
        Mr. Knott. Did that open up the pathway not only for
    illegal immigration to overwhelm the system, but also the
    pathways of legal immigration? Were those abused by bad actors?
        Mr. Hankinson. Well, when you put all the staff, for
    example, the border patrol is not patrolling the border, more
    people can come in. If USCIS is processing all the cases of
    parolees and asylees, they don't have time to process the legal
    cases.
        Legal immigrants suffered more under the Biden
    Administration than they should have.
        Mr. Knott. This idea that illegal immigrants do not commit
    crime, I want to ask you a very basic question. Is it easier to
    prosecute, convict and jail someone who was born in the United
    States?
        Is it easier to convict someone that you don't even know is
    here?
        Mr. Hankinson. Well, it is easier to convict someone when
    you know who they are. Either way, it takes a lot of time.
        Mr. Knott. That is right. That is right. In terms of the
    drug sales, the drug smuggling, and so forth, if we don't know
    that they are here in the first place, it is harder to
    investigate and convict. Is that correct?
        Mr. Hankinson. Yes.
        Mr. Knott. Now, Mr. Brown, in regard to your own personal
    story, I want to ask you just a few questions outside of your
    own experience.
        What other types of victims do you deal with as it relates
    to immigration fraud?
        Mr. Brown. The vast majority of our clients are traditional
    one-sided marriage fraud cases. Those are traditionally when
    someone, a foreign national, convinces and deceives a U.S.
    citizen into marriage for the purpose of getting a Green Card.
        Over the last couple of decades, there has been new types
    of marriage fraud that has emerged. One is called VAWA self-
    petition fraud. That is when they file a Form I-360. That is
    when they falsely accused their spouse of some sort of domestic
    violence to become eligible to basically pursue the Green Card
    without any obstruction.
        Another one is an I-751 waiver fraud. The Congress passed
    the 1986 Marriage Fraud Amendments Act and created this
    conditional permanent residency regime. This I-751 waiver is a
    way for them to get around the joint petition requirement by
    making a false accusation.
        The final form of marriage-based fraud is I-864 fraud,
    which is a huge problem. The I-864 is basically a form of
    immigration alimony these days. We have had numerous clients
    where a foreign national marries them, comes into the U.S.,
    doesn't even cohabitate with them, and sues them under the I-
    864.
        There is no fraud exception in the Federal statute, which
    should be changed.
        Mr. Knott. Right. OK. Sir, thank you for your testimony. To
    the victims who are here in the back, thank you for coming. We
    see you. I yield back.
        Mr. Fry? Mr. Garcia. No, I am sorry, Mr. Garcia. Mr.
    Garcia, I wasn't trying to skip you. I had to leave, so I am
    getting Mr. Fry to come and sit in the chair.
        Mr. Garcia. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Before I make a few
    remarks, I want to just observe that the bulk of this hearing
    was about illegal or unauthorized immigration.
        We are supposed to be talking about legal immigration and
    visas and the visa system. In addition to that, people went as
    far as to talk about an existential threat.
        People talked about, inaccurately, the last amnesty that
    was granted, which is incorrect. It was 39 years ago that
    Congress enacted the Immigration Reform and Control Act, known
    as IRCA, signed into law by President Reagan, for those who may
    be mistaken, or were too young, or not born yet to be able to
    talk about it as if it were a fact.
        Once again, we are here so that Republicans can pretend to
    be concerned about an immigration system that they have
    consistently undermined.
        For more than 30 years, 39 to be exact, Republicans, with a
    few exceptions, temporary ones have rejected immigration reform
    and embraced largely a racist narrative that portrays
    immigrants as criminals and terrorists all for short-term
    political gain. I say that as a proud American who also is an
    immigrant to this country.
        Now, under this administration, we have a lawless
    authoritarian regime that is terrorizing communities, kidnaping
    people off the streets, deporting U.S. citizens, including
    children with cancer. Locking up nearly 60,000 people and
    depriving them of even food and basic necessities.
        Openly violating the law and preventing the Members of
    Congress from making oversight visits. I experienced that last
    week with three other Members in Illinois.
        As my colleagues have pointed out, the administration is
    cracking down on legal immigration through over-broad and
    discriminatory actions targeting international students and
    imposing travel bans on 19 countries.
        It is a cynical and cruel campaign that does nothing to
    improve the lives of working families. The people of this
    country see through it.
        That is why the President's polling on immigration is
    underwater. Even though Republicans don't want to fix our
    immigration system, it is more important than ever to promote a
    thoughtful and nuanced approach to these issues. We can look to
    history to inform our path forward.
        Mr. Nowrasteh, thank you for being here today. I want to
    ask you about the Bracero Program in the 1950s and 1960s. That
    was a program as you know. Do you think that it was more
    effective than the overly punitive system that we have in place
    today?
        What lessons about the visa process can we learn from that
    program today?
        Mr. Nowrasteh. It was far more effective than the process
    we have today. It was not perfect by any means. There were
    definitely problems in any of these programs.
        The problems though back then, were largely caused by too
    many rules and restrictions, and frankly, by the Mexican
    government side. Which sort of inserted a lot of corruption to
    steal wages from some of these workers.
        What we saw was at the beginning of the expansion of the
    Bracero Program in 1952, there were around two million or so
    unauthorized immigrants in the U.S., almost all of them from
    Mexico. Within a few years of this program, the border flows,
    the illegal crossings, fell by over 95 percent.
        The illegal immigrant population fell by 90 percent because
    they got these visas. This was ended, this program, in 1964.
    That is when the modern illegal immigration program, or illegal
    immigration problem began, was because Americans still demanded
    immigrant laborers, but Congress had made it illegal.
        Mr. Garcia. Thank you for that. I ask you that, because it
    is personal to me. My father came to this country under that
    program, eventually became a lawful permanent resident and
    petitioned for us. That is how we arrived in 1965, another
    historic year in immigration law.
        If Republicans want to restore integrity, and you corrected
    the record, sir, and security to the visa process or enhance
    it, perhaps, then they should stop criminalizing immigrants at
    large and destroying those lawful pathways.
        If America wants to stay the vital country that it has been
    and remain a beacon for the rest of the world, then we need to
    restore those pathways, which have been shut down.
        Thank you. I yield back, Mr. Chair.
        Ms. Jayapal. Mr. Chair, I have an unanimous consent
    request. I seek unanimous consent to enter into the record,
    this Congressional research report titled, ``U.S. Citizenship
    and Immigration Services Operations and Issues for Congress.''
    It shows that out of 10 million forms processed by USCIS in
    2023, only 1.6 percent were referred to the Office of Fraud
    Detection and National Security for any indications of fraud or
    national security threats.
        Mr. Fry. [Presiding.] Without objection. The Chair now
    recognizes the gentleman from Texas, Mr. Hunt.
        Mr. Hunt. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Under the Biden
    Administration, the United States was flooded with tens of
    millions of illegal immigrants that used dozens of visa
    programs to finesse their way into our great Nation.
        In response to this invasion, President Trump signed an
    Executive Order simply returning immigration law back to the
    standards of July 19, 2021, which restores and enhances all
    screening of foreign nationals, especially those who are
    considered to be a higher risk to this country.
        To secure the homeland, which was about 77 million
    Americans voted for, we must do more than just finish the wall,
    fund CBP, and support ICE's lawful deportation operations. We
    must also reform visa programs which have been used to usurp
    Federal immigration law.
        We were told post-911 that we were going to fight in
    Afghanistan and that we had to fight in Iraq. Why? Because if
    we didn't fight the enemy there, then we are going to have to
    fight them here in our own country.
        Now, because of the failures of the Democrat party's
    policies, they are now in our homeland. How do we know? Because
    382 citizens who are matches on the terror watch list, were
    encountered at the Southern border, and 99 of those were
    released into the United States from 2001-2023. Unacceptable.
        The Democrat Party under Joe Biden and Kamala Harris,
    Alejandro Mayorkas, and numerous other dark money groups and
    NGOs, made it their mission to flood this country with tens of
    millions of unvetted immigrants and people who wish to do us
    harm.
        Terrorists like Egyptian National Mohamed Sabry Soliman,
    who used a homemade flame thrower and Molotov cocktails in
    Boulder, Colorado, to attack pro-Israel demonstrators who were
    advocating for the release of hostages.
        This man, who was admitted into the U.S. in 2022 on a
    Tourist Visa, and was then given a work authorization in 2023,
    by yes, you guessed it, the Biden Administration, and had been
    posting pro-Muslim Brotherhood propaganda on his Facebook page
    for more than a decade. Disgusting.
        Ms. Vaughan, thank you so much for being here today. I
    really appreciate your testimony. If you had a magic wand that
    could create any policy to prevent tragedies such as we saw in
    Boulder, Colorado, a few weeks ago, what would it be, ma'am?
        Ms. Vaughan. Well, unfortunately, there is no machine that
    can read people's minds to know what their intent is when they
    are coming here.
        One of the most important improvements that we could make
    would be to require mandatory interviews for nonimmigrant visa
    applicants and also people who are applying for Green Cards and
    immigrant visas.
        Mr. Hunt. OK. Thank you.
        MS. Vaughan. We should have eyes on and personal contact
    with everyone who is applying.
        Mr. Hunt. Can you say that again please? We should have
    personal contact with every single visa holder of every single
    individual that wants to enter this country.
        Am I right or wrong?
        Ms. Vaughan. Right. At a minimum for their first
    application. Some renewals are not high-risk once you can
    examine their travel history.
        Mr. Hunt. Of course.
        Ms. Vaughan. Every new applicant, with very few exceptions,
    should have a personal interview.
        Mr. Hunt. What the American public needs to understand and
    what we know, is that 77 million people voted for exactly what
    President Trump is executing right now.
        The faux outrage from the Left continues to ignore the
    damage that has been done to our country and people that are
    literally maiming our fellow Americans, while we have done
    nothing and we stood by idly. We are now acting and behaving in
    a way that enforces the law.
        This is not xenophobia. This is the way and the process
    that it takes to enter a sovereign Nation. We at the Federal
    Government must protect that.
        I am somebody that has deployed all over the world. No
    other country operates this way. There is not a single country
    in the world that would allow 20 million people to enter their
    country illegally. Then, when we do something about it, we then
    cry xenophobia. It would never happen.
        When I was stationed in Saudi Arabia, you had to have a
    diplomatic passport just to enter Saudi Arabian airspace. The
    idea that we should at least speak to every single person that
    wants to enter our country is a novel idea, because everybody
    else does it.
        Thank you so much for your time. Thank you for being here.
    Mr. Chair, I yield back the remainder of my time.
        Mr. Fry. The gentleman yields. The Chair now recognizes the
    gentlelady from Texas, Ms. Crockett.
        Ms. Crockett. Thank you so much. It is interesting that we
    are being accused of wanting all kinds of criminals to be on
    the streets, or that we don't believe that people should show
    up to their meetings and appointments.
        The last time I checked, there are a lot of people that are
    actually being grabbed as they are going in for their
    appointments. In fact, we know that one of the candidates that
    was recently running in the mayoral ended up being arrested,
    because he decided that he was actually going to escort people
    that are actually showing up to their meetings.
        We know that the Pope, yes, the Pope himself, decided that
    the church may need to have people that are going to escort
    people as they are going into their meetings, because the
    reality is that, what they are claiming what they want to do,
    versus what they are actually doing, the actions don't match
    up.
        WShile we are supposed to be talking about visas, somehow
    we continue to cherry-pick and talk about one criminal act and
    another criminal act.
        It is so very interesting to me that yes, we will say
    people are xenophobic, because when you start to decide that
    just because somebody came from another country, they are
    automatically some kind of criminal, that does sound kind of
    xenophobic to me. Because you are using a paintbrush to paint
    an entire group of people where the vast majority of them are
    coming here because they are actually seeking a better life.
        Let me get to what this hearing is supposed to be about.
    The idea that Trump and my Republican colleagues want to
    restore integrity and security in the visa process is actually
    a joke.
        Let me be clear, integrity is not snatching lawful visa
    holders off the streets and throwing them into unmarked vans.
    Integrity is not revoking visas based on social media posts
    that hurt somebody's little feelings, because kids decide that
    they want to go after Trump or this administration. We have a
    thing called free speech in this country.
        Since we are talking about integrity, I am confused as to
    why my Republican colleagues aren't talking about the lack of
    integrity when it comes to the President's family's visas.
        Let me remind you all that Melania, the First Lady, a
    model, and when I say model, I am not talking about Tyra Banks,
    Cindy Crawford, or Naomi Campbell level, applied for and was
    given an EB-1 Visa. What that stands for is an Einstein Visa.
        Now, you don't know, let me tell you how you receive an
    Einstein Visa. You are supposed to have some sort of
    significant achievement, like being awarded a Nobel Peace Prize
    or a Pulitzer, being an Olympic medalist, or having other
    sustained extraordinary abilities and success in sciences,
    arts, education, business, or athletics.
        Last time I checked, the First Lady had none of those
    accolades under her belt. It doesn't take an Einstein to see
    that the math ain't math in here.
        Nevertheless, what Republicans are doing with this
    reconciliation process, the travel bans and revoking visas,
    jeopardizes our national security. It threatens our
    communities, our higher education, and our economy.
        Visas like the largely vetted J Visas for higher education,
    and M Visas for trade training, attract the next innovators,
    medical providers, researchers, and educators that we need to
    build on American success.
        I am not going to mess up your name, so I am not doing
    that. I am with you. OK? In your experience, do individuals on
    J or M Visas typically improve or impair our economy?
        Mr. Nowrasteh. They generally improve the economy. I can
    give a brief example. My wife is a very successful woman. She
    makes a ton of money, which I am grateful for.
        The reason why we are able to do that while having three
    children, is because of the au pair visa, somebody who is here
    on a J Visa.
        Ms. Crockett. OK.
        Mr. Nowrasteh. Who is here and able to supply this for us.
        I also want to defend Melania really quick. Not everybody
    could marry Donald Trump. That is quite an achievement.
        She deserves credit for that. Nobody up here could have
    done it.
        Ms. Crockett. You, sir, are right. I couldn't do it.
    Anyway, in fact, J Visa holders contribute $43.8 billion to the
    U.S. economy, and support more than 300,000 jobs.
        Make no mistake, immigrants improve the health of U.S.
    citizens too. Despite the fact we already have a doctor
    shortage, Trump's reckless travel ban, and visa overhaul are
    exacerbating this crisis by impairing hundreds of hospitals
    with foreign trained doctors, set to do their residencies here
    in the United States, meaning fewer people will get the help
    they need and more people will die.
        Now, let me remind you that Republicans are trying to gut
    Medicaid. Roughly 4.5 million people receive caregiver services
    through Medicaid. Most of these folks are in Red States.
        Wouldn't you know that in 2023, Kaiser Family Foundation
    estimated that almost 30 percent of long-term care providers or
    home care caretakers were immigrants. It is like Republicans
    want Americans to suffer.
        Now, Republicans say visas make us less secure. Let's talk
    about how U Visas, visas given to victims of crimes like rape,
    murder, human trafficking, torture, abduction, and kidnaping,
    to help law enforcement with their investigation or
    prosecutions of these crimes. These folks are risking their own
    security for broader safety of Americans and our communities.
        Thank you so much. I will yield.
        Mr. Fry. The gentlelady yields. The Chair now recognizes
    himself for five minutes. I think it is important to realize
    how we got here. Right?
        I have served in Congress for 2\1/2\ years, and one of the
    first hearings that we ever had, the Ranking Member of this
    Committee, not this one, said that we were imagining,
    Republicans were imagining a border crisis, right?
        A stark commentary from the Ranking Member, when all
    evidence seemed to suggest and show that there was indeed a
    border crisis where millions of people were pouring in
    illegally.
        One of the concerns of that, not only from the illegal side
    that Mr. Knott talked about, but the legal side too, Ms.
    Vaughan, it seems to me that the evidence suggests that the
    Biden Administration kind of flooded the zone a little bit, and
    there weren't adequate checks on the people that were going
    through the visa process normally.
        Would you agree with that?
        Ms. Vaughan. I would agree with that. They implemented
    through Secretary Mayorkas, a get-to-yes culture. We were
    instructed to minimize vetting, and to approve, as a default,
    and discouraged from referring cases to fraud. They were not
    allowed to issue notices to appear for failed benefit
    applicants.
        They sort of took away the consequence of filing a
    frivolous application by letting people who were here illegally
    apply for a visa and the few that were denied nothing happened
    to them.
        That created a huge impetus to apply for some of these visa
    programs that people really wouldn't even claim to qualify for.
    They knew by just filing the application, they could get a work
    permit and protection for deportation.
        That just destroys the integrity of the system, and it
    makes legal applicants have to wait longer for the benefits
    that they deserve.
        Mr. Fry. Correct. Now, we are forced with figuring out
    whether people are categorized in the right place, right?
        Whether they were even lawfully allowed to get the visa
    that they were supposed to receive.
        Ms. Vaughan. That is right. There have been people whose
    lawful status has been held back by all these frivolous
    applications. People who have either received them already
    fraudulently, or who are on waiting lists and who have work
    permits, who shouldn't have them at all.
        Mr. Fry. When it comes to vetting, obviously the Biden
    Administration rescinded Trump's prior Executive Order from his
    first term that kind of strengthened the visa process.
        The new Executive Order under President Trump called for
    maximum vetting, and ordered reviews of countries with poor
    screening, and ergo travel suspensions, of course.
        Mr. Hankinson, can a restriction on a country be lifted?
    How would that look?
        I guess when they comply and have adequate background
    checks of their own citizens, that would be a reason why a
    country that is on that list could now be allowed into the
    country.
        Mr. Hankinson. If they would take all their citizens back
    when we asked them to, it was one factor. The overstay rate in
    some of these countries, for Chad, it was 50 percent.
        Out of every two people issued a visa, one doesn't come
    back. Maybe it is time to rethink that one. If they got their
    house in order. If their central agencies were able to issue
    credible documents and verify criminal records, I would assume
    that they could be let back in.
        Mr. Fry. Mr. Hankinson, would you agree that our foreign
    adversaries exploit our immigration system?
        If you do agree with that, how so?
        Mr. Hankinson. Absolutely. Well, we know that the Chinese
    have spied on American companies, American universities, and
    the American government. Obviously, it is not all of them. It
    is just a small percentage, but that is all you need.
        We know that the Russians have done the same, the Cubans.
    It is a very easy country to get into, or at least it has been.
        Mr. Fry. Mr. Brown, does the current Executive Order by
    President Trump, do you believe that this closes security gaps
    more effectively than the previous administration did?
        Mr. Brown. Maybe. That what the Trump Administration has,
    is some wonderful statutes that you all have already passed.
        It gives them wide latitude to enforce some of these laws.
    You just brought up the fact, what do we do with all those
    people who came in under the Biden Administration through legal
    channels and weren't eligible?
        In my opinion, the Trump Administration tomorrow, should
    stand up a permanent revocation division inside USCIS and look
    at these applications that went through.
        The other thing they can do right now, is for a lot of the
    victims who have been personally harmed by these foreign
    nationals, there is an existing process in place with the Board
    of Immigration Appeals that allows them to appeal their I-130
    petitions based on fraud.
        That is something they can implement right now. There is no
    other statute that needs to be done.
        Mr. Fry. Thank you for that. Ms. Vaughan, regarding
    President Trump's Executive, current Executive Order, do you
    believe that if we had had this in place during the Biden
    Administration that ICE would not have had to apprehend 11
    Iranian nationals this past Sunday? One of them being a former
    Army sniper for the IRGC.
        Ms. Vaughan. Well, it is hard to know. I do believe that
    there would have been, the ones who came over the border are
    more likely to have been stopped. The ones who came on visas
    are less likely to have been able to get those visas.
        Since we don't have a machine that can read people's minds,
    the best defense against allowing people to enter who mean our
    country harm, is to have routine, across the board, immigration
    enforcement that will ensnare the threats, as well as the
    people who are committing fraud or simply don't qualify.
        Mr. Fry. I agree with you. Including a look at the purview
    of their social media, which would have shown at least with the
    Boulder, Colorado, individual--
        Ms. Vaughan. Yes, yes.
        Mr. Fry. Sharing Muslim Brotherhood propaganda.
        With that, I see my time has expired.
        Mr. Raskin. Mr. Chair?
        Mr. Fry. The gentleman is recognized.
        Mr. Raskin. I have a UC request.
        Mr. Fry. Go ahead.
        Mr. Raskin. Thank you. A UC requests that further to the
    colloquy between Mr. Nowrasteh and the Congresswoman from
    Texas. This is in the Pew Research Center, ``A Majority of
    Americans say Immigrants Fill Jobs U.S. Citizens Do Not Want.''
        Mr. Fry. Without objection.
        Mr. Raskin. Thank you.
        Mr. Fry. That concludes today's hearing. We thank the
    witnesses for appearing before the Subcommittee today.
        Without objection, all Members will have five legislative
    days to submit additional written questions for the witnesses
    or additional materials for the record.
        Without objection, the hearing is adjourned. Thank you.
        [Whereupon, at 4:12 p.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.]

        All materials submitted for the record by the Members of
    the Subcommittee on Immigration Integrity, Security, and
    Enforce-
    ment can be found at the following links: https://
    docs.house.gov/Committee/Calendar/ByEvent.aspx?EventID=118426.