[House Hearing, 119 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]


                      FUTURE OF FEMA: PERSPECTIVES FROM THE 
                          EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT COMMUNITY

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

                            SUBCOMMITTEE ON
                  EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT AND TECHNOLOGY

                                 OF THE
                                 
                     COMMITTEE ON HOMELAND SECURITY
                        HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS

                             FIRST SESSION

                               __________

                             MARCH 4, 2025

                               __________

                            Serial No. 119-4

                               __________

       Printed for the use of the Committee on Homeland Security
                                     

[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] 
                                     

       Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov/

                               __________
                               

                   U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE                    
60-780 PDF                  WASHINGTON : 2025                  
          
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------                                   
 
                     COMMITTEE ON HOMELAND SECURITY

                 Mark E. Green, MD, Tennessee, Chairman
                 
Michael T. McCaul, Texas, Vice       Bennie G. Thompson, Mississippi, 
    Chair                                Ranking Member
Clay Higgins, Louisiana              Eric Swalwell, California
Michael Guest, Mississippi           J. Luis Correa, California
Carlos A. Gimenez, Florida           Shri Thanedar, Michigan
August Pfluger, Texas                Seth Magaziner, Rhode Island
Andrew R. Garbarino, New York        Daniel S. Goldman, New York
Marjorie Taylor Greene, Georgia      Delia C. Ramirez, Illinois
Tony Gonzales, Texas                 Timothy M. Kennedy, New York
Morgan Luttrell, Texas               LaMonica McIver, New Jersey
Dale W. Strong, Alabama              Julie Johnson, Texas, Vice Ranking 
Josh Brecheen, Oklahoma                  Member
Elijah Crane, Arizona                Pablo Jose Hernandez, Puerto Rico
Andrew Ogles, Tennessee              Nellie Pou, New Jersey
Sheri Biggs, South Carolina          Sylvester Turner, Texas
Gabe Evans, Colorado                 Vacant
Ryan Mackenzie, Pennsylvania         Vacant
Brad Knott, North Carolina
                    Eric Heighberger, Staff Director
                  Hope Goins, Minority Staff Director
                       Sean Corcoran, Chief Clerk
                                 ------                                

          SUBCOMMITTEE ON EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT AND TECHNOLOGY

                   Dale W. Strong, Alabama, Chairman
Josh Brecheen, Oklahoma              Timothy M. Kennedy, New York, 
Gabe Evans, Colorado                     Ranking Member
Ryan Mackenzie, Pennsylvania         Julie Johnson, Texas
Mark E. Green, MD, Tennessee (ex     Pablo Jose Hernandez, Puerto Rico
    officio)                         Bennie G. Thompson, Mississippi 
                                         (ex officio)
               Diana Bergwin, Subcommittee Staff Director
          Lauren McClain, Minority Subcommittee Staff Director
                           
                           
                           C O N T E N T S

                              ----------                              
                                                                   Page

                               Statements

The Honorable Dale W. Strong, a Representative in Congress From 
  the State of Alabama, and Chairman, Subcommittee on Emergency 
  Management and Technology:
  Oral Statement.................................................     1
  Prepared Statement.............................................     3
The Honorable Timothy M. Kennedy, a Representative in Congress 
  From the State of New York, and Ranking Member, Subcommittee on 
  Emergency Management and Technology:
  Oral Statement.................................................     5
  Prepared Statement.............................................     7
The Honorable Bennie G. Thompson, a Representative in Congress 
  From the State of Mississippi, and Ranking Member, Committee on 
  Homeland Security:
  Prepared Statement.............................................     9

                               Witnesses

Mr. Jeffrey ``Jeff'' E. Smitherman, Director, Alabama Emergency 
  Management Agency:
  Oral Statement.................................................    10
  Prepared Statement.............................................    12
Mr. Daniel Kaniewski, Managing Director of the Public Sector, 
  Marsh McLennan:
  Oral Statement.................................................    14
  Prepared Statement.............................................    16
Ms. Carrie Speranza, Certified Emergency Manager, President, U.S. 
  Council of the International Association of Emergency Managers:
  Oral Statement.................................................    28
  Prepared Statement.............................................    29
Mr. Timothy Manning, Former Deputy Administrator for Protection 
  and National Preparedness, Federal Emergency Management Agency:
  Oral Statement.................................................    30
  Prepared Statement.............................................    32

                             For the Record

The Honorable Timothy M. Kennedy, a Representative in Congress 
  From the State of New York, and Ranking Member, Subcommittee on 
  Emergency Management and Technology:
  Article, Bloomberg, February 28, 2025..........................    45
  Article, New York Times, February 27, 2025.....................    46
  GAO Report.....................................................    48

 
  FUTURE OF FEMA: PERSPECTIVES FROM THE EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT COMMUNITY

                              ----------                              


                         Tuesday, March 4, 2025

             U.S. House of Representatives,
                    Committee on Homeland Security,
                      Subcommittee on Emergency Management 
                                            and Technology,
                                                    Washington, DC.
    The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:16 a.m., in 
room 310, Cannon House Office Building, Hon. Dale W. Strong 
[Chairman of the subcommittee] presiding.
    Present: Representatives Strong, Brecheen, Evans, Moylan, 
Kennedy, Johnson, Hernandez, and Moskowitz.
    Mr. Strong. The Committee on Homeland Security's 
Subcommittee on Emergency Management and Technology will come 
to order. Without objection, the Chair may declare the 
subcommittee in recess at any point.
    The purpose of this hearing is to assess the current role 
of FEMA, including FEMA's expanding mission set, FEMA's 
stewardship of taxpayer dollars, and its coordination with the 
State and local governments in disaster recovery response. 
Without objection, the gentleman from Guam, Mr. Moylan, and the 
gentleman from Florida, Mr. Moskowitz, are permitted to sit on 
the dais and ask questions to witnesses.
    I now recognize myself for an opening statement.
    Good morning and thank you to everyone for joining today 
for this first hearing of the Committee on Homeland Security's 
Subcommittee on Emergency Management and Technology in the 
119th Congress. With over 4 decades of experience as a first 
responder, having served the people of Alabama as both an 
emergency medical technician and volunteer firefighter, I am 
honored to serve as Chairman of this subcommittee. I am 
committed to using this subcommittee to advance the cause of 
first responders and emergency managers across the Nation, 
making sure that they are prepared and resilient against all 
challenges.
    I also wish to congratulate my colleagues across the aisle, 
Mr. Kennedy of New York, on his role as Ranking Member. I look 
forward to working with you as we strive to ensure our 
communities are prepared to prevent, respond to, and recover 
from emergencies and disasters.
    I would like to welcome back Mr. Brecheen of Oklahoma. 
Finally, I want to welcome the newcomers to the subcommittee 
and to Congress: Mr. Evans of Colorado, Mr. Mackenzie of 
Pennsylvania, and across the aisle, Ms. Johnson of Texas, and 
Mr. Hernandez of Puerto Rico. I look forward to working with 
all of you this Congress to do the work securing our homeland.
    In the interest of ensuring our homeland is resilient and 
prepared for all types of disasters, it is fitting that the 
subcommittee's first hearing is on FEMA, the Nation's primary 
disaster relief agency. FEMA oversees national preparedness 
grants and Federal disaster assistance, coordinates relief 
efforts, and ensures our Nation is able to prepare for, respond 
to, and recover from disasters. Recent events have overwhelmed 
our State and localities and challenged their ability to 
mobilize and help their communities. In 2024 alone, FEMA 
responded and administered resources for over 100 major 
declarations.
    According to NOAA, natural disasters last year caused 568 
fatalities and damages totaled approximately $182.7 billion. 
Hurricane Helene and Milton alone devastated the East Coast, 
causing 251 deaths and $113.9 billion in damages. Beginning in 
January of this year, fires in Los Angeles County and Southern 
California caused damage and economic loss that is projected to 
be somewhere between $250 billion and $275 billion, which would 
make it the costliest single disaster in our Nation's history, 
surpassing the record set by Hurricane Katrina.
    Our States and localities deserve all the help they can get 
in protecting people's lives and property against deadly 
disasters. The aid that FEMA delivers before and after 
disasters is greatly appreciated and greatly needed. But as 
recent events demonstrate, there is room for improvement. We 
must ask what efficiencies can be found? What reforms can be 
implemented to create a better emergency management enterprise? 
How can FEMA be improved to better support those on the ground 
and disaster survivors?
    I applaud President Trump's January 24th Executive Order to 
convene a FEMA Review Council composed of individuals with 
expertise in disaster response and recovery, who will be tasked 
with providing recommendations on reform to FEMA. Even the best 
Government agencies are in continual need of reform, and FEMA 
is no exception. The purpose of this hearing is to solicit 
feedback from stakeholders within the emergency management 
community that can help guide President Trump's FEMA Review 
Council as it explores what aspects of FEMA deserves the most 
reform.
    I thank the witnesses for their perspective and for being 
here today. As we begin our conversation, there are a few areas 
of potential reform which I would like to highlight.
    FEMA's mission set has expanded greatly in recent years to 
include tasks beyond preparing for and responding to 
traditional disasters. For example, FEMA assisted the Federal 
Government's efforts in providing shelter and supplies to UACs 
from the Southwest Border. It also supported the Department of 
Homeland Security in the resettling of Afghan refugees by way 
of Operation Allies Welcome.
    Since 2019, FEMA has been administering funds to local 
governments and nonprofit groups to offset the cost of 
humanitarian relief efforts of caring for migrants, at first 
through the Emergency Food and Shelter Program--Humanitarian, 
and since 2023, the Shelter and Service Program. As the border 
crisis ballooned during the Biden administration, I wonder how 
much time was wasted administering this program when the FEMA 
work force was already stretched thin. As we contemplate how 
best to reconfigure or establish efficiencies within FEMA to 
support its operations, we must ask whether FEMA's expanding 
mission set has slowly exhausted the agency's resources and 
work force, preventing it from completing its core mission to 
the highest level of sufficiency.
    In addition to FEMA's mission creep, there are concerns 
that FEMA has also enabled a certain degree of waste. A GAO 
report found that FEMA mishandled the administration of funds 
for its COVID-19 Funeral Assistance program, with at least $4.8 
million being approved for duplicate or ineligible applicants. 
I look forward to our witnesses' thoughts on how to make FEMA 
as efficient as possible while still allowing it to carry out 
the fullness of its duties.
    It is also of great importance that FEMA avoid any 
appearances of partisanship. Following Hurricane Milton last 
year, a FEMA employee improperly and illegally instructed 
canvassers not to go to houses displaying signs of then-
Presidential candidate Trump, disregarding FEMA's mission of 
supporting every disaster survivor. As I am sure we can all 
agree, FEMA must be impartial in its performance of all duties.
    The FEMA Review Council will also consider various 
structural changes to FEMA as indicated in President Trump's 
Executive Order. Some have suggested FEMA should be removed 
from the Department of Homeland Security, once again making it 
an independent agency with direct access to the President of 
the United States. I look forward to hearing our witnesses' 
perspectives on this matter and whether they think this move 
would have a positive effect on FEMA's efficiency and ability 
to operate, as well as potential changes that could be created.
    Finally, it is evident that State and local governments 
have become increasingly reliant on FEMA to meet critical 
disaster response needs. I invite our witnesses to offer 
suggestions on a more appropriate structure of burden sharing 
between Federal Government and State and local government to 
best position them to respond to disasters. Again, I thank each 
of you for being here today and I look forward to hearing your 
testimony on these and other issues to inform the work of the 
FEMA Review Council as they seek to reform FEMA to better serve 
the American people.
    [The statement of Chairman Strong follows:]
                  Statement of Chairman Dale W. Strong
    Good morning and thank you to everyone for joining us today for 
this first hearing of the Committee on Homeland Security's Subcommittee 
on Emergency Management and Technology in the 119th Congress.
    With over 4 decades of experience as a first responder, having 
served the people of Alabama as both an EMT and volunteer firefighter, 
I am honored to serve as Chairman of this subcommittee.
    I am committed to using this subcommittee to advance the cause of 
first responders and emergency managers across the Nation, making sure 
they are prepared and resilient against all challenges.
    I also wish to congratulate my colleague across the aisle, Mr. 
Kennedy of New York, on his role as Ranking Member.
    I look forward to working with you as we strive to ensure our 
communities are prepared to prevent, respond to, and recover from 
emergencies and disasters.
    I'd like to welcome back Mr. Brecheen of Oklahoma.
    And finally, I want to welcome the newcomers to the subcommittee 
and to Congress--Mr. Evans of Colorado, Mr. Mackenzie of Pennsylvania, 
and across the aisle, Ms. Johnson of Texas, and Mr. Hernandez of Puerto 
Rico.
    I look forward to working with all of you this Congress to do the 
work of securing our homeland.
    In the interests of ensuring our homeland is resilient and prepared 
for all types of disasters, it is fitting that this subcommittee's 
first hearing is on FEMA--the Nation's primary disaster relief agency.
    FEMA oversees national preparedness grants and Federal disaster 
assistance, coordinates relief efforts, and ensures our Nation is able 
to prepare for, respond to, and recover from disasters.
    Recent events have overwhelmed our States and localities and 
challenged their ability to mobilize and help their communities.
    In 2024 alone, FEMA responded to and administered resources for 100 
Major Disaster Declarations.
    According to NOAA, natural disasters last year caused 568 
fatalities and damages totaling approximately $182.7 billion dollars.
    Hurricanes Helene and Milton alone devastated the East Coast, 
causing 251 deaths and $113.9 billion dollars in damages.
    Beginning in January of this year, fires in Los Angeles County and 
southern California caused damage and economic loss that is projected 
to be between $250 billion and $275 billion dollars, which would make 
it the costliest single disaster in our Nation's history, surpassing 
the record set by Hurricane Katrina.
    Our States and localities deserve all the help they can get in 
protecting people's lives and property against deadly disasters.
    The aid that FEMA delivers before and after disasters is greatly 
appreciated and greatly needed. But as recent events demonstrate, there 
is room for improvement . . . 
    We must ask: what efficiencies can be found and what reforms should 
be implemented to create a better emergency management enterprise?
    And how can FEMA be improved to better support those on the ground 
and disaster survivors?
    I applaud President Trump's January 24th Executive Order to convene 
a FEMA Review Council composed of individuals with expertise in 
disaster response and recovery, who will be tasked with providing 
recommendations on reform to FEMA.
    Even the best Government agencies are in continual need of reform, 
and FEMA is no exception.
    The purpose of this hearing is to solicit feedback from 
stakeholders within the emergency management community that can help 
guide President Trump's FEMA Review Council as it explores what aspects 
of FEMA deserve the most reform.
    I thank the witnesses for their perspectives and for being here 
today.
    As we begin our conversation, there are a few areas of potential 
reform which I would like to highlight.
    FEMA's mission set has expanded greatly in recent years to include 
tasks beyond preparing for and responding to traditional disasters.
    For example, FEMA assisted the Federal Government's efforts in 
providing shelters and supplies to UACs from the Southwest Border.
    It also supported the Department of Homeland Security in the 
resettling of Afghan refugees via Operation Allies Welcome.
    Since 2019, FEMA has been administering funds to local governments 
and nonprofit groups to offset the costs of humanitarian relief efforts 
of caring for migrants, at first through the Emergency Food and Shelter 
Program--Humanitarian, and, since 2023, the Shelter and Services 
Program.
    As the border crisis ballooned during the Biden administration, I 
wonder how much time was wasted administering this program when the 
FEMA workforce was already stretched thin.
    As we contemplate how best to reconfigure or establish efficiencies 
within FEMA to support its operations, we must ask whether FEMA's 
expanding mission set has slowly exhausted the agency's resources and 
workforce, preventing it from completing its core mission to the 
highest level of sufficiency.
    In addition to FEMA's ``mission creep,'' there are concerns that 
FEMA has also enabled a certain degree of waste.
    A GAO report found that FEMA mishandled the administration of funds 
for its COVID-19 Funeral Assistance Program, with at least $4.8 million 
dollars being approved for duplicate or ineligible applicants.
    I look forward to our witnesses' thoughts on how to make FEMA as 
efficient as possible while still allowing it to carry out the fullness 
of its duties.
    It is also of great importance that FEMA avoid any appearance of 
partisanship.
    Following Hurricane Milton last year, a FEMA employee improperly 
and illegally instructed canvassers not to go to houses displaying 
signs of then-Presidential candidate Trump, disregarding FEMA's mission 
of supporting every disaster survivor.
    As I'm sure we can all agree, FEMA must be impartial in the 
performance of all its duties.
    The FEMA Review Council will also consider various structural 
changes to FEMA, as indicated in President Trump's Executive Order.
    Some have suggested that FEMA should be removed from the Department 
of Homeland Security, once again making it an independent agency with 
direct access to the President.
    I look forward to hearing our witnesses' perspectives on this 
matter, and whether they think this move would have a positive effect 
on FEMA's efficiency and ability to operate, as well as potential 
challenges this could create.
    Finally, it is evident that State and local governments have become 
increasingly reliant on FEMA to meet critical disaster response needs.
    I invite our witnesses to offer suggestions on a more appropriate 
structure of burden sharing between the Federal Government and State 
and local governments to best position them to respond to disasters.
    Again, I thank each of you for being here today, and I look forward 
to hearing your testimony on these and other issues to inform the work 
of the FEMA Review Council as they seek to reform FEMA to better serve 
the American people.

    Mr. Strong. I now recognize the Ranking Member of the 
subcommittee for his opening statement.
    Mr. Kennedy. Thank you, Chairman, and congratulations on 
being named Chair of this great subcommittee. I want to also 
recognize and congratulate my colleagues on both sides of the 
aisle for taking part in this subcommittee.
    I want to recognize all of the witnesses that are here 
today. Thank you for being here and thank you for the important 
work that you do for our country.
    The topic of today's hearing, unfortunately, is very 
timely. Disasters are striking harder and more often from 
wildfires that we are seeing today yet again, floods, 
hurricanes, extreme snow and ice storms, tornadoes. We have 
seen hundreds of lives taken across communities and devastated 
nationwide. California, Kentucky, Florida, South Carolina, New 
York, and everywhere in between, we need to strengthen our 
preparedness, our response, our recovery efforts like never 
before. It is ever more critical that we do so.
    We have to support them from Congress every step of the way 
and I am deeply concerned about the Trump administration's 
attack on FEMA and the dedicated public servants in emergency 
management at every level. President Trump has threatened to 
dismantle the agency, fired 200 employees, pushed out 800 more 
under Elon Musk's unfunded resignation scheme. It is a reckless 
and dangerous move that undermines disaster response when we 
need it the most.
    These brave servants attempting to help communities ravaged 
by destruction are being fired without cause. It is a shameful, 
despicable act, and it is wrong. Unfortunately, the Majority 
has chosen not to include any representatives from FEMA to 
attend this hearing and testify today about what is truly 
happening on the front lines.
    Currently, there is no transparency from this 
administration on how FEMA, an agency with such a critical 
mission, can operate while being dismantled 1 employee at a 
time. Even while the Trump administration continues to downplay 
the critical role of emergency managers, the truth is that for 
decades, FEMA has come to the aid of the American public time 
and time again, and they have done so without being 
understaffed--I am sorry, they have done so while being 
understaffed and underfunded.
    In addition to the direct attacks on FEMA, President Trump 
is chipping away and weakening the agencies that provide 
support to FEMA, like NOAA, the National Oceanic and 
Atmospheric Administration. Reportedly, the Trump 
administration has fired approximately 800 probationary 
employees at NOAA, while another 500 resigned, severely 
undermining critical weather forecasting and climate monitoring 
services. Such mass exoduses from essential agencies not only 
weaken our disaster response and preparedness capabilities, but 
also jeopardize public safety and economic stability.
    Let me be clear. The American people cannot afford to let 
President Trump and Elon Musk take a chainsaw to FEMA. I have 
seen first-hand how critical FEMA is on a number of occasions. 
But in 2022, my community was ravaged by Winter Storm Elliott. 
During the week of Christmas 2022, a Category 4 extratropical 
cyclone created crippling winter weather conditions, including 
blizzards, high winds, snowfall, and record cold temperatures 
across the entire country, exacerbated in the Northeast. This 
catastrophic storm claimed 47 lives in my hometown of Buffalo 
and Western New York. This tragedy overwhelmed our entire 
community in the days, weeks, and months following, from the 
mourning of loss of loved ones, friends, and community members 
to putting the pieces of lives and homes back together.
    Following this storm, President Biden ensured that FEMA 
assistance was provided, but the devastating blizzard 
highlighted outdated FEMA policies that left gaps in support. 
Currently, FEMA has a snow assistance and severe winter storm 
policy that provides a criteria for assistance following an 
extreme snowstorm. However, snow assistance requires a record 
or near-record snowfall over 1 to 3 days validated by the 
National Weather Service and compared to historical data. For 
example, where other storms are judged by the amount of damage 
they cause, a snowstorm must be the worst a community has ever 
experienced to qualify for assistance. That means up to 6 to 7 
feet of snow just to get the attention of FEMA. That is not 
acceptable. Where other storms are judged by this damage and we 
have to see more snow than ever before in history, we see this 
disproportionate impact on how Federal assistance can be 
provided.
    So Federal assistance for snowstorms must be on par with 
other national natural disasters. That is why I introduced the 
Snow Act to expand disaster assistance for snowstorms, ensuring 
communities get the help that they need. Specifically, my bill 
removes outdated snowfall methodology and the State-wide total 
damages requirement if the affected response zone and/or region 
has determined by State emergency service agencies. It unlocks 
Individual Assistance for snow disasters, providing monetary 
relief for families who experience substantial damages to their 
homes. It unlocks all categories of Public Assistance for snow 
disasters, such as assistance in removing debris, rebuilding 
roads and bridges, rebuilding and maintaining public utilities, 
and melting agents for ice on roads. It adds snow removal 
equipment under FEMA's Hazard Mitigation Grant Program and 
raises the Federal cost share to 90 percent Federal and 10 
percent State and local if the affected areas are rural or 
below the real median household income according to Census 
Bureau. This will have an impact on every single community 
across the United States.
    Make no mistake about it. There is work to be done to 
improve FEMA, but dismantling its experienced work force is 
reckless and dangerous. As climate change fuels more frequent 
and severe disasters, our focus must be on strengthening FEMA's 
ability to respond, not weakening it. It is more crucial than 
ever before to have a robust response system. The growing 
threats we face demand it.
    While a lot of today's conversation is likely to focus on 
natural disasters, FEMA does more than disaster response. It 
provides critical preparedness grants for communities Nation-
wide. Yet the White House froze these funds, forcing courts to 
intervene. Even after a judge's order, reports indicate that 
many grants remain blocked, jeopardizing emergency readiness. 
This is not just bureaucratic red tape, it puts lives at risk. 
This funding, frozen by the administration, supports first 
responders and emergency managers in keeping us all safe.
    In my district, we know first-hand how vital the 
preparedness grant resources are. In just a few short months, 
we'll be commemorating the third anniversary of the racist, 
white supremacist terrorist attack that robbed 10 lives, 
innocent souls from my community on May 14, 2022. That day, our 
first responders, our police, our firefighters, our EMS, and so 
many others bravely rushed into harm's way, putting their lives 
on the line to protect others. They give so much for the well-
being of our community, so the very least we can do is ensure 
that they have the funding and support that they need. I look 
forward to hearing from our witnesses today about all of these 
issues and more.
    With that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
    [The statement of Ranking Member Kennedy follows:]
             Statement of Ranking Member Timothy M. Kennedy
                             March 4, 2025
    The topic of today's hearing is, unfortunately, very timely. 
Disasters are striking harder and more often--from wildfires, floods, 
tornadoes, and hurricanes to extreme snow and ice storms, we have seen 
hundreds of lives taken and communities devastated nationwide. From 
California to Kentucky to Florida, to South Carolina, to New York, the 
need to strengthen our preparedness, response, and recovery efforts has 
never been more critical. Preparedness, response, and recovery efforts 
must be strengthened, and that starts with skilled emergency managers. 
Congress must support them at every level.
    Yet, I'm deeply concerned about the Trump administration's attack 
on FEMA and the dedicated public servants in emergency management at 
every level. President Trump has threatened to dismantle the agency, 
fired 200 employees, and pushed out 800 more under Elon Musk's unfunded 
resignation scheme. This is a reckless, dangerous move that undermines 
disaster response when we need it most. These brave public servants, 
attempting to help communities ravaged by destruction, are being fired 
without cause. It is shameful, it is despicable, and it is wrong.
    And, unfortunately, the Majority has chosen not to include any 
representatives from FEMA to attend this hearing and to testify today 
about what is truly happening on the front lines. Currently, there is 
no transparency from this administration on how FEMA, an agency with 
such a critical mission, can operate while being dismantled--1 employee 
at a time. Even while the Trump administration continues to downplay 
the critical role of emergency managers, the truth is that for decades, 
FEMA has come to the aid of the American public time and time again. 
And they have done so while being understaffed and underfunded.
    In addition to the direct attacks on FEMA, President Trump is 
chipping away at and weakening the agencies that provide support to 
FEMA, like the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA). 
Reportedly, the Trump administration has fired approximately 800 
probationary employees at NOAA, while another 500 resigned--severely 
undermining critical weather forecasting and climate monitoring 
services.
    Such mass exoduses from essential agencies not only weaken our 
disaster response and preparedness capabilities but also jeopardize 
public safety and economic stability. Let me be clear: the American 
people cannot afford to let President Trump and Elon Musk take a 
chainsaw to the Federal Emergency Management Agency.
    I've seen first-hand how critical FEMA is on a number of occasions, 
but in 2022, my community was ravaged by Winter Storm Elliott. During 
the week of Christmas in 2022, a category 4 extratropical cyclone 
created crippling winter weather conditions including blizzards, high 
winds, snowfall, and record cold temperatures across the northeast. 
This catastrophic storm claimed 47 lives in my community. This tragedy 
overwhelmed our entire community in the days, weeks, and months 
following, from mourning the loss of loved ones, friends, and community 
members to putting the pieces of lives and homes back together.
    Following the storm, President Biden ensured that Federal 
assistance was provided, but this devastating blizzard highlighted 
outdated FEMA policies that left gaps in support. Currently, FEMA has a 
Snow Assistance and Severe Winter Storm Policy that provides the 
criteria for assistance following an extreme snowstorm.
    However, snow assistance requires a record or near-record snowfall 
over 1-3 days, validated by the National Weather Service and compared 
to historical data. For example, where other storms are judged on the 
amount of damage they cause, a snowstorm must be the worst a community 
has ever experienced to qualify for assistance.
    Federal assistance for extreme snowstorms must be on par with other 
natural disasters. That's why I introduced the SNOW Act to expand 
disaster assistance for snowstorms, ensuring communities get the help 
they need. Specifically, my bill:
   Removes the outdated snowfall methodology and the State-wide 
        total damages requirement if the affected response zone and/or 
        region as determined by State emergency service agencies
   Unlocks Individual Assistance for snow disasters, providing 
        monetary relief for families who experience substantial damage 
        to their homes
   Unlocks all categories of Public Assistance for snow 
        disasters, such as assistance in removing debris, rebuilding 
        roads and bridges, rebuilding and maintaining public utilities, 
        and melting agents for ice on roads
   Adds snow removal equipment under FEMA's Hazard Mitigation 
        Grant Program
   Raises the Federal cost share to 90 percent Federal and 10 
        percent State and local IF the affected areas are rural or 
        below the real median household income according to the Census 
        Bureau.
    Make no mistake about it, there is work to be done to improve FEMA, 
but dismantling its experienced workforce is reckless and dangerous. As 
climate change fuels more frequent and severe disasters, our focus must 
be on strengthening FEMA's ability to respond--not weakening it. It is 
more crucial than ever to have a robust response system. The growing 
threats we face demand it.
    While a lot of today's conversation is likely to focus on natural 
disasters, FEMA does more than disaster response; it provides critical 
preparedness grants for communities nationwide. Yet, the White House 
froze these funds, forcing courts to intervene. Even after a judge's 
order, reports indicate that many grants remain blocked, jeopardizing 
emergency readiness. This is not just bureaucratic red tape--it puts 
lives at risk. This funding, frozen by the administration, supports 
first responders and emergency managers in keeping us all safe.
    In my district, we know first-hand how vital the preparedness grant 
resources are. In just a few short months, we will be commemorating the 
third anniversary of the racist, white supremacist terrorist attack 
that robbed the lives of 10 innocent souls on May 14, 2022.
    That day, our first responders--our police, firefighters, EMS, and 
so many others--bravely rushed into harm's way, putting their lives on 
the line to protect others. They give so much for the well-being of our 
communities, so the very least we can do is ensure they have the 
funding and support they need.

    Mr. Strong. Thank you. Thank you, Ranking Member Kennedy. 
Other Members of the subcommittee are reminded that opening 
statements may be submitted for the record.
    [The statement of Ranking Member Thompson follows:]
             Statement of Ranking Member Bennie G. Thompson
                             March 4, 2025
    I want to thank our witnesses for engaging in a vital discussion 
regarding the future of the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA). 
Our Nation's emergency managers and first responders are our first line 
of defense during emergencies and are an integral part of our 
communities.
    Yet, President Trump continues to dismiss the emergency management 
community and has referred to FEMA as a ``disaster,'' and even 
suggested he would get ``rid of'' the agency.
    Trump has demonstrated his blatant disregard for FEMA by directly 
causing a workforce crisis within the agency. At his direction, 200 
FEMA employees were fired and more than 800 are resigning--resulting in 
a total loss of nearly 1,000 workers, including seasoned emergency 
managers. Apparently, firing seasoned emergency managers and forcing 
their resignation is Donald Trump's strategy for handling disasters.
    In addition to the mass exodus of experienced FEMA staff, Trump has 
handed Elon Musk--of all people--a ``special government employee'' 
appointment, giving him and his minions free rein to access sensitive 
FEMA data. This is data that, in the wrong hands, could wreak havoc on 
our Nation's security.
    Despite Donald Trump and Elon Musk dismissing the importance of the 
agency and its mission, FEMA has repeatedly delivered critical aid to 
the American public, even amid staffing shortages and retention 
challenges.
    We have all witnessed the devastating impact of catastrophic 
storms. In my own district, FEMA's assistance was indispensable during 
the March 2023 tornadoes that ravaged my community. Even now, we 
continue to rely on their support during our recovery.
    Republicans have called this hearing to examine FEMA's future. I am 
worried for FEMA's future, especially with Cameron Hamilton, the Senior 
Official Performing the Duties of FEMA Administrator leading the 
agency.
    Mr. Hamilton has little-to-no experience with being in charge of 
responding to large-scale disasters. In fact, he is firing employees 
with more experience than him. What is worse is that Mr. Hamilton 
reportedly promoted misinformation about FEMA after Hurricanes Helene 
and Milton on social media. This should be unacceptable to every Member 
of Congress and the American public.
    I am also gravely concerned about the future of homeland security 
grants to our communities. As someone deeply invested in emergency 
response, I have consistently advocated for these programs, which 
provide funding to State, local, Tribal, and territorial governments to 
support everything from training first responders to investing in 
infrastructure that strengthens our Nation's resilience against natural 
disasters and terrorism.
    Even after the White House allegedly rescinded the order to freeze 
grants, there are still reports of State and local governments and 
nonprofit organizations not being rightfully awarded grant funding--
some of which is needed for disaster recovery.
    Over the weekend, it was reported that the Trump administration is 
withholding ``at least 140'' grants across the country that is needed 
for wildfire prevention, flood mitigation, disaster preparedness, and 
programs that support ``essential health, safety, and welfare.'' 
Withholding this funding undermines our ability to prepare for and 
respond to emergencies and puts communities at risk.
    Simply put, the Trump administration firing experienced FEMA 
workers and withholding critical homeland security funding puts the 
future of FEMA in doubt and makes America less safe.

    Mr. Strong. I am very pleased to have such an important 
panel of witnesses before for us today. I ask that the 
witnesses please rise and raise your right hand.
    [Witnesses sworn.]
    Mr. Strong. Thank you. Please be seated. Let the record 
reflect that the witnesses have answered in the affirmative.
    I would now like to formally introduce our witnesses. Mr. 
Jeff Smitherman serves as the director of the Alabama Emergency 
Management Agency. Previously, Mr. Smitherman served as the 
acting director of Alabama Emergency Management Agency and has 
also served as its executive operations officer and State 
coordinating officer. Mr. Smitherman also completed a 28-year 
military career, retiring in 2015 from the United States Army 
and Alabama National Guard. Thank you for your service.
    Mr. Daniel Kaniewski is the managing director of public 
sector at Marsh McLennan, where he develops innovative 
solutions to public-sector challenges and engages 90,000 
experts in risk strategy and people. From 2017 to 2020, he 
served as the deputy administrator for resilience of FEMA. 
Early in his career, Mr. Kaniewski served as special assistant 
to the President for Homeland Security and senior director for 
response policy in the George W. Bush administration.
    Ms. Carrie Speranza is a president of the U.S. Council of 
International Association of Emergency Managers and is the 
former chair of the FEMA National Advisory Council. Ms. 
Speranza is also the director of Emergency Management Solutions 
at Esri. Before joining Esri, Ms. Speranza was deputy director 
of the District of Columbia's Homeland Security and Emergency 
Management Agency. Thank you.
    Mr. Timothy Manning is a former deputy administrator for 
protection and national preparedness at FEMA. More recently, 
Mr. Manning served as the White House COVID-19 supply 
coordinator. Prior to joining Federal service, Mr. Manning 
served as the cabinet secretary of the New Mexico Department of 
Homeland Security and emergency management and homeland 
security advisor to Governor Bill Richardson. I thank the 
witnesses again for being here today.
    I now recognize Mr. Smitherman for 5 minutes to summarize 
his opening statement. Mr. Smitherman.

STATEMENT OF JEFFREY ``JEFF'' E. SMITHERMAN, DIRECTOR, ALABAMA 
                  EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT AGENCY

    Mr. Smitherman. Good morning and thank you, Chairman 
Strong, Ranking Member Kennedy, and other distinguished Members 
of the committee for the invitation to testify here today. I am 
Jeff Smitherman, the director of the Alabama Emergency 
Management Agency and a cabinet member to Governor Kay Ivey. 
Today I want to share with you all what I believe about 
emergency management and the future of FEMA.
    At Alabama EMA, we are proud to be one of the premier 
emergency management programs in the country. Alabama's success 
is directly tied to the professionalism, training, and 
experience of our first responders and local emergency 
management programs. As director and cabinet member and on 
behalf of my colleagues in State and local emergency 
management, we thank you for this opportunity to provide a 
State perspective on the future of FEMA.
    Alabama is no stranger to large-scale disasters. While as a 
State we rank 24th in population, we are 7th in major disaster 
declarations. During President Trump's first term, we had 6 
major disaster declarations and during my time or my tenure at 
the agency, from 2015 to present, we've had 17 major disaster 
declarations. However, States experienced many other events 
that do not rise to a major disaster declaration, but still 
required significant commitment of State resources.
    I believe disaster preparedness, response, and recovery for 
all incidents start and end at the local level and that the 
relationship is critical between Federal, State, Tribal, and 
local emergency management. Each jurisdiction maintains 
separate authorities and capabilities, but must work together 
by connecting and supporting one another to effectively and 
timely save lives and protect property. States are critical to 
successful preparation, response, and recovery within our 
communities. To fully understand the critical function of the 
State, I believe a State emergency management director must be 
included in the review process and on the President's FEMA 
Review Council.
    I believe we must use this reset opportunity to not just 
necessarily look at how to adjust the current system, but to 
take a holistic look and approach to its redesign. What do we 
want the emergency management system to look like after the 
President's Review Council completes their work? This is a 
generational opportunity for a rebuilt network with a refined 
focus and efficiency.
    I believe we can gain some efficiencies through this 
process. With no additional Federal funds, I believe we can 
build more State and local capacity by adjusting the funding 
and redefining and streamlining priorities.
    I believe preparedness and resilience are related 
functions. The more deliberate focus and effort that goes into 
preparedness is realized after an event with a more resilient 
population and infrastructure. As such, I believe we can place 
increased priority on State and local capacity using existing 
Building Resilient Infrastructure and Communities, BRIC, 
funding. BRIC is a newer grant program that has not realized 
its initial goals. By redesignating a small portion of this 
funding to be made available to all States in order to develop 
their capacity and the capacity at the local jurisdictions, it 
would be a highly efficient and effective way to serve our 
citizens who need timely and helpful assistance on their worst 
days, not months or years of red tape.
    The Homeland Security grants serve to train and certify 
existing local first responders, the same resources that 
Alabama deployed to North Carolina for Hurricane Helene. One 
important system that already exists for the States is the 
Emergency Management Assistance Compact, the EMAC. I believe 
EMAC is a viable, proven framework and program to execute 
State-to-State mutual aid. Increased capacity can be used by 
States within the EMAC system to cover requirements that FEMA 
formerly tried to cover.
    I believe emergency management is a team effort. Sometimes 
you rely on one aspect more than the other, such as State 
versus FEMA, but everyone still has a role. I think the key 
during this critical review will be an important opportunity to 
clearly define the role of local, State, Federal, Tribal, 
nonprofit, and private-sector partners and create a new dynamic 
emergency management that works for everyone.
    I believe there is a consensus on the lack of speed, 
consistency, and clarity from FEMA and I know many in FEMA 
agree and welcome some level of change. The States already 
built schools, parks, Government buildings, et cetera. I 
believe we can rebuild better, quicker, and more efficiently in 
a system more like a block grant than the cumbersome system we 
currently use.
    As I conclude, I want to thank again the committee for the 
opportunity to appear before you today. I believe emergency 
management is critical to the Nation and the time is now to 
implement improvements that will change the way we do business 
and ultimately better serve the citizens of the United States. 
Thank you.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Smitherman follows:]
          Prepared Statement of Jeffrey ``Jeff'' E. Smitherman
                             March 4, 2025
                              introduction
    Thank you, Chairman Strong, Ranking Member Kennedy, and other 
distinguished Members of the committee for the invitation to testify 
here today.
    I am Jeff Smitherman, director of Alabama Emergency Management 
Agency (AEMA) and cabinet member to Governor Kay Ivey. Today I want to 
share with you all what I believe about Emergency Management. At 
Alabama EMA we are proud to be one of the premiere emergency management 
programs in the country. Alabama's success is directly tied to the 
professionalism, training, and experience of our first responders and 
local emergency management programs.
    Alabama EMA is responsible for the preservation of the lives and 
property of the citizens of Alabama through coordination of emergency 
preparedness, response, recovery, and mitigation.
    As director and cabinet member, and on behalf of my colleagues in 
State and local emergency management, we thank you for this opportunity 
to provide a State perspective on the Future of the Federal Emergency 
Management Agency (FEMA).
                            disaster history
    Alabama is no stranger to large-scale disasters. While as a State 
we are 24th in population we rank 7th in major disaster declarations. 
During President Trump's first term we had 6 major disaster 
declarations and during my tenure at the agency from 2015 to present we 
have had 17 major disaster declarations; however, States experience 
many other events that do not rise to a major disaster declaration but 
required a significant commitment of State resources.
    For example, in fiscal year 2023 Alabama supported 14 such events. 
In another role, I supported the agency for Hurricane Katrina, 
Deepwater Horizon Oil Spill, the 2011 Tornado Outbreak, and many, many 
other disasters. These disasters have allowed us to understand the 
challenges that every community and citizen faces when they experience 
a disaster.
    Over the years, we have tracked Federal dollars for each disaster 
and program. The agency has done this work with no significant audit 
findings of fraud, waste, or abuse.
    state investment in emergency management and building resilient 
              infrastruction in communities (bric) funding
    I believe disaster preparedness, response, and recovery for all 
incidents start and end at the local level and that the relationship is 
critical between Federal, State, Tribal, and local emergency 
management. Each jurisdiction maintains separate authorities and 
capabilities but must work together by connecting and supporting one 
another to effectively and timely save lives and protect property.
    States are critical to successful preparation, response, and 
recovery within our communities. To fully understand the critical 
function of the State, I believe a State Emergency Management Director 
must be included in the review process and on the President's FEMA 
Review Council.
    I believe we must use this reset opportunity to not necessarily to 
look at how to adjust the current system, but we must look at it more 
holistically. What do we want the emergency management system to look 
like after the President's Review Council completes their work? This is 
a generational opportunity for a rebuilt network with a refined focus 
and efficiency.
    I believe we can gain some efficiencies through this process. With 
NO ADDITIONAL FEDERAL FUNDS, I believe we can build more State and 
local capacity by adjusting the funding and redefining and streamlining 
priorities. I believe Preparedness and Resilience are related 
functions. The more deliberate focus and effort that goes into 
preparedness is realized after an event with a more resilient 
population and infrastructure.
    As such, I believe we can place increased priority on State and 
Local capacity using existing Building Resilient Infrastructure in 
Communities (BRIC) funding. BRIC is a newer grant program that has not 
realized its initial goals. By redesigning a small portion of this 
funding to be made available to all States in order to develop their 
capacity and the capacity of the local jurisdictions it would be a 
highly efficient and effective way to serve our citizens who need 
timely and helpful assistance on their worst days, not months or years 
of red tape.
    The Homeland Security grants serve to train and certify existing 
local first responders, the same resources that Alabama deployed to 
North Carolina for Hurricane Helene.
             emergency management assistance compact (emac)
    One important system that already exists for States is the 
Emergency Management Assistance Compact (EMAC). I believe EMAC is a 
viable proven framework and program to execute State-to-State mutual 
aid. Increased capacity can be used by States within the Emergency 
Management Assistance Compact (EMAC) system to cover requirements that 
FEMA formerly tried to cover. Some examples are States supporting each 
other with Emergency Operations Center (EOC) augmentations, National 
Guard assets, swift water rescue teams, or urban search and rescue.
    I believe Emergency Management is a team sport, sometimes you rely 
on one aspect more than the other (State vs FEMA) like run vs pass in 
football, but everyone still has a role. I think the key during this 
critical review will be an important opportunity to clearly define the 
role of local, State, Federal, Tribal, non-profit, and private-sector 
partners and create a new dynamic emergency management that works for 
everyone.
                      state support with programs
    I believe there is a consensus on the lack of speed, consistency, 
and clarity from FEMA and I know many in FEMA agree and welcome some 
level of change.
    I believe in an organization dialed in on its mission, the ``WHY'' 
it exists. The ``why'' should drive every action. As soon as it loses 
its focus on ``why'' it begins to have issues with the ``how''. We have 
witnessed some of these issues of the ``how''. The core mission needs 
to go back to the basics such as ``blocking'' and ``tackling'' in 
football. EM must stay focused always on the ``why'' and should ask how 
this rule, regulation, policy, task, or process impacts the Disaster 
Survivor or Impacted Community.
    The States already build schools, parks, Government buildings etc., 
and I believe we can rebuild better, quicker, and more efficiently in a 
system more like a block grant than the cumbersome system we currently 
use that significantly hindered another State agency as evidenced by 
the below example from Department of Conservation and Natural Resources 
(DCNR).

``FEMA has won. I am finished with this project submittal.
``As you may recall, on November 18, 2021, we were contacted by EMA 
that y'all had set aside $1 million for the generator project at The 
Lodge at Gulf State Park. I was, and am, very appreciative of your work 
on this. However, after 3 years and responses to numerous RFIs and 
constantly moving goal posts by FEMA, I feel we have wasted enough time 
and money on this project.
``We were asked to provide a load analysis of the critical functions of 
the Lodge. As you and FEMA can see by the detailed (and expensive) 
analysis that was done, the panels are not separated by just lights, or 
just AC or just outlets. Most panels are wired by zone or location that 
contain all these type electrical outputs. You can't just power some 
items and not others in a panel. That is not reasonable. Two panels 
that are powered by the existing generator were excluded. We provided 
more load detail than was asked for to be sure FEMA had all the 
information.
``To be clear, I think this is a worthy project and would serve Coastal 
Alabama well in a large storm event with very long power outages. The 
Lodge was built to withstand damage from hurricanes and can be used as 
a staging area for first responders, a lodging facility for insurance 
adjustors, FEMA and EMA representatives and other personnel that are 
critical after an event. To serve this function, nearly all of the 
facility would need to be powered. However, this has gone on so long 
with FEMA that the allotted $1 million will not be sufficient to 
complete this project. The cost of generators, switches, and 
construction have gone up substantially since we proposed this project. 
I am not prepared to pay the cost difference between the 2021 prices we 
estimated and the current costs. Also, the lead time on large 
generators is now 18-24 months. That is two more hurricane seasons 
without this capability. The multi-year delay on this project by FEMA 
has doomed it to failure. I will never again apply for BRIC or Hazzard 
Mitigation funds from FEMA. The juice is not worth the squeeze.
``Chris Blankenship, Commissioner, Alabama Department of Conservation 
and Natural Resources.''

    The Public Assistance (PA) program is most suited for a block grant 
system. PA provides eligible applicants funding to remove debris, 
restore bridges, culverts, school buildings, Government buildings etc. 
after a disaster. These costs are estimated quickly but the Federal 
process to review gets so complicated and works against the best 
interests of the community with delays that often last for years. The 
Hazard Mitigation Grant Program is even worse with unnecessary 
complexity and layers of bureaucracy that delays projects like 
community safe rooms for years at a time.
    The Individual Assistance (IA) program provides direct financial 
assistance to disaster survivors and would be more difficult to 
decentralize and is probably still best run by FEMA but also needs an 
aggressive review to improve efficiency. Including likely a totally new 
software that supports rather than hinders the program.
                               conclusion
    As I conclude, I want to again thank the committee for the 
opportunity to appear before you today. Emergency Management is 
critical, and the time is now to implement improvements that will 
change the way we do business and ultimately better serve the citizens 
of the United States.

    Mr. Strong. Thank you, Mr. Smitherman.
    I now recognize Dr. Kaniewski for 5 minutes to summarize 
his opening statement.

STATEMENT OF DANIEL KANIEWSKI, MANAGING DIRECTOR OF THE PUBLIC 
                     SECTOR, MARSH McLENNAN

    Mr. Kaniewski. Chairman Strong, Ranking Member Kennedy, my 
name is Dan Kaniewski and I focus on the public sector at Marsh 
McLennan. It's the world's leading professional services firm 
in the areas of risk, strategy, and people. We're a U.S. 
company with more than 90,000 colleagues world-wide, advising 
public- and private-sector clients in 130 countries.
    We have a deep understanding of disaster resilience and 
recovery issues, having been engaged with risk management 
insurance challenges since our founding more than 150 years 
ago. We work with clients, including governments, individuals, 
businesses, organizations, and communities, to analyze their 
disaster risk exposures; help them implement solutions before, 
during, and after an event; address and mitigate the financial 
impact of natural disasters through insurance; and other risk 
transfer tools.
    Before joining Marsh McLennan, I had the pleasure of 
serving in the first Trump administration as the second ranking 
official at FEMA. I served alongside a dedicated FEMA work 
force that managed a barrage of back-to-back disasters from 
2017 to 2020. We embraced a locally-executed, State-managed, 
and Federally-supported approach. We always operated in support 
of the Governor. I believe then and continue to believe now 
that FEMA should not be viewed simply as the Federal 
Government's ATM reimbursing States for their costs, but 
instead positioned as the Nation's risk manager.
    My proudest achievement at FEMA was launching and leading 
the Agency's Resilience Organization. The pre-disaster mission 
of the Resilience Organization is comprised of 3 equally 
important parts: preparedness, mitigation, and insurance. Much 
of my expertise relates to resilience and we at Marsh McLennan 
believe FEMA's mission of supporting State and local 
governments before a disaster can be strengthened, making the 
agent a trusted risk advisor, much in the way that we see 
ourselves at Marsh McLennan.
    FEMA is most often associated with disaster response 
missions. Recent major disasters such as Hurricane Helene and 
Milton and the L.A. wildfires demonstrate why. That is when the 
spotlight is on FEMA. It's when what FEMA does matters most in 
the moment. But I strongly believe that what FEMA does before a 
disaster strikes is equally important.
    Today's hearing presents an opportunity to engage in a 
long-overdue conversation about potential reforms to FEMA and, 
more broadly, appropriate levels of burden sharing between 
Federal, State, and local governments and with the private 
sector. I personally have seen FEMA reforms. I was the author 
of the Bush White House Hurricane Katrina After-Action Report, 
``The Federal Response to Hurricane Katrina: Lessons Learned.'' 
And at FEMA in the first Trump administration we proposed to 
Congress and then implemented provisions of the Disaster 
Recovery Reform Act of 2018, including the Building Resilient 
Infrastructure and Communities, or BRIC, Grant Program.
    The strategic plan we developed at FEMA in 2017 contained a 
goal of closing the insurance gap. I now work in the property 
and casualty insurance industry and continue to focus on that 
goal. Just like FEMA, the insurance industry is at a 
crossroads. Given the recent deluge of recent disasters, from 
flooding to hurricanes to wildfires, there's a pressing need 
for proactive measures to mitigate risks and safeguard the 
well-being of our communities. Thus, resilience must be our 
collective North Star whereby we reduce the physical and 
financial impacts of disasters and transfer these risks off the 
backs of disaster survivors and the Federal balance sheet. But 
to do so, we must be prepared to match the magnitude of risks 
we face with the magnitude of effort required to manage them.
    FEMA, through its various grant programs both 
disincentivizes and incentivizes resilience investments by 
State and local governments. The FEMA Public Assistance Program 
largely disincentivizes resilience because it amounts to a de 
facto insurance policy for State and local governments. In 
contrast, FEMA's pre-disaster programs, such as BRIC hazard 
mitigation programs, encourage resilience by providing the 
funding that saves taxpayer dollars and reduces disaster 
suffering.
    The private sector can also incentivize resilience, 
particularly in the areas of finance, insurance, and real 
estate. These sectors should view themselves as co-
beneficiaries of resilience investments and, therefore, should 
find ways to encourage individuals, businesses, and governments 
to make these investments.
    Thank you for your time today and the opportunity to share 
how FEMA, together with its State and local emergency 
management partners and the private sector, can together make 
the Nation more resilient.
    I look forward to your questions.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Kaniewski follows:]
                 Prepared Statement of Daniel Kaniewski
                         tuesday, march 4, 2025
    Marsh McLennan is the world's leading professional services firm in 
the areas of risk, strategy, and people. Our more than 90,000 
colleagues advise clients in 130 countries. We help corporate and 
public-sector clients navigate an increasingly dynamic environment and 
address the most complex challenges of our time through 4 market-
leading businesses--Marsh, Guy Carpenter, Mercer, and Oliver Wyman.
    We have a deep understanding of disaster resilience and recovery 
issues, having been engaged with risk management and insurance 
challenges since our founding more than 150 years ago. We work with 
clients--including individuals, businesses, organizations, governments, 
and communities--to analyze their disaster risk exposures, help them 
implement solutions before, during, and after an event, and address and 
mitigate the financial impact of natural disasters through insurance 
and other risk transfer tools.
                           executive summary
    The Nation needs to have a clear vision--across all levels of 
government--that balances how best to prepare for and respond to 
disasters and foster resilience. The Federal Emergency Management 
Agency (FEMA) has long been a vital part of that vision.
Resilience
   There is an opportunity now to underscore FEMA's mission of 
        supporting State and local governments before a disaster--as a 
        risk advisor, steward of a culture of resilience, and a funder 
        of high-impact community projects.
   With the on-going increase in the frequency and severity of 
        natural disasters, proactive measures are needed to mitigate 
        risks and safeguard the well-being of communities.
   Risk reduction and risk transfer should be the cornerstone 
        of a resilience-focused approach.
   Many States have developed innovative disaster resilience 
        programs that support a national resilience strategy.
FEMA programs cut both ways
   FEMA's pre-disaster programs--such as the Homeland Security 
        Grant Program (HSGP), Building Resilient Infrastructure and 
        Communities (BRIC), and Flood Mitigation Assistance (FMA)--
        incentivize resilience.
   Others, such as some aspects of the FEMA Public Assistance 
        grant program, create disincentives.
   FEMA should work to correct the belief among some people 
        that they do not need to be financially prepared before 
        disasters because, they wrongly think, the agency will make 
        them whole.
   The agency should also encourage individuals to prioritize 
        risk-reduction measures.
NFIP and private flood insurance
   Flooding remains the most common peril, involved in 90 
        percent of natural disasters in the United States.
   Insurance, including through the National Flood Insurance 
        Program (NFIP), is a critical aspect of a flood resilience 
        strategy. However, there is a growing gap in funding flood 
        losses through insurance, which results in many individuals, 
        businesses, and communities not having the financial resources 
        to recover following a flood.
   Reasons for low coverage rates include affordability 
        constraints, limited risk awareness, poor understanding of 
        insurance, and behavioral biases in decision making. The 
        continuing flood resilience gap in the United States means that 
        many individuals, businesses, and communities lack the 
        financial resources to effectively recover following a flood or 
        other disaster.
   The public and private flood insurance markets could be 
        improved through strengthening and protecting the NFIP, growing 
        the private flood insurance market, addressing gaps in 
        coverage, embracing innovations such as parametric insurance, 
        and more.
   At the same time, local building and zoning laws can go a 
        long way to creating more resilient communities.
Innovative programs
   Programs such as community-based catastrophe insurance 
        (CBCI) can help enhance financial resilience, provide 
        affordable coverage, and incentivize risk reduction.
   Public-private collaboration will also be essential for 
        developing solutions and incentivizing resilience to address 
        the increasing impacts of natural disasters.
                              introduction
    On January 24, 2025, President Donald J. Trump issued an Executive 
Order (EO) establishing the Council to Assess the Federal Emergency 
Management Agency. The EO and associated Council present an opportunity 
to have needed conversations about potential FEMA reforms and, more 
broadly, appropriate levels of burden-sharing between Federal, State, 
and local governments, as well as the private sector.
    As stated in the New York Times:
    A growing number of Federal emergency managers say FEMA is 
overextended. ``The real question is how those burdens should be shared 
at all levels of government,'' said Daniel Kaniewski, the second-
highest ranking official at FEMA during Mr. Trump's first 
administration and now a managing director at Marsh McLennan, a 
consulting firm.
    The past 4 administrators of FEMA--2 appointed by Democrats, and 2 
appointed by Mr. Trump--have made versions of that argument, calling 
for States to do more. But States generally want more help, not less.
    The Stafford Act of 1988, the Homeland Security Act of 2002, and 
the National Flood Insurance Act of 1968 are the principal statutes 
that form the basis of FEMA's mission. Adding in a patchwork of 
regulations, policies, and guidance, you can see the challenges facing 
recipients of FEMA assistance and FEMA itself.
    Numerous potential FEMA reforms have been proposed over the years 
by stakeholders, the Government Accountability Office (GAO), and 
various think tanks. Following Hurricanes Katrina and Maria, policy 
makers adopted reforms, such as the Post-Katrina Emergency Management 
Reform Act of 2006 and the Disaster Recovery Reform Act of 2018.
    It's important to underscore that FEMA is not a first responder. 
State and local emergency managers are on the front lines of disasters. 
Consistent with the Stafford Act, FEMA provides supplemental assistance 
when requested by a Governor and approved by the President.
    FEMA provides both a coordinating function among Federal agencies 
and a funding mechanism through its Disaster Relief Fund. The goal of 
the agency is to support State and local governments and disaster 
survivors in their time of need.
    While recent commentary has largely focused on FEMA's disaster 
response and recovery mission, this hearing and the President's EO 
provide an opportunity to consider the agency's equally important 
mission of helping State and local governments before a disaster 
strikes. The agency refers to this pre-disaster mission as 
``resilience,'' with FEMA Resilience housing its pre-disaster programs.
    Marsh McLennan operates at the nexus of risk management and risk 
transfer, and is thus directly aligned with FEMA's resilience mission. 
Insurance plays a strong role in both signaling and mitigating risk, 
and as such can help inform State and local officials' risk-based 
decisions.
    Insurance pricing is driven by the level of risk--for today's 
discussion, the frequency and severity of disasters. For example, some 
are questioning insurance pricing and whether Southern California 
communities remain insurable against wildfires. But the real question 
is whether we are prepared to match the magnitude of risks we face with 
the magnitude of effort required to manage them.
    By reducing the physical and financial impacts of disasters, we can 
transfer risks off the backs of disaster survivors--and the Federal 
balance sheet. To do so we must align on resilience as our collective 
North Star.
                               resilience
    Without a long-term commitment to resilience, society faces a 
never-ending risk crisis. We must break the cycle of destruction and 
instead build stronger and more resilient structures and communities. 
FEMA defines resilience as ``the ability to prepare for threats and 
hazards, adapt to changing conditions, and withstand and recover 
rapidly from disruptions.'' More practically, resilience at FEMA can be 
thought of as 3 equally important elements: preparedness, mitigation, 
and insurance. Each is a core component of the FEMA Resilience 
organization and, more generally, any emergency management resilience 
strategy, with each component complementary to the other. For example, 
investing in hazard mitigation can make insurance more available or 
affordable to a community.
    In an era of escalating risks and evolving challenges, the 
insurance industry--like FEMA--is at a crossroads. As we witness the 
increasing frequency and severity of natural hazards such as flooding 
and wildfires, there is a pressing need for proactive measures to 
mitigate risks and safeguard the well-being of communities. Embracing 
the transformative power of risk reduction in the built environment is 
not just a strategy for sustainable development; it is a vital step 
toward reducing Federal taxpayer impacts and fortifying insurance 
markets against the uncertainties of our changing world.
    Resilient reconstruction--rebuilding in a way that reduces future 
disaster impacts--also has a role to play. To rebuild following a 
disaster using the same guidelines and methods as before would be 
shortsighted. For example, California and Los Angeles officials are now 
considering how best to reconstruct the homes, businesses, and, in many 
cases, entire neighborhoods that were destroyed this year by wildfire. 
Incorporating fire-resistant building materials and adopting and 
enforcing wildland-urban interface (WUI) building codes would make LA 
more resilient to future wildfires. These actions would also encourage 
insurers to provide coverage.
    By collectively prioritizing resilience, we have an opportunity to 
not only reduce the frequency and severity of losses, but also to 
foster a more resilient and insurable built environment.
                   fema incentives and disincentives
    FEMA, through its various grant programs, both incentivizes and 
disincentivizes resilience investments by State and local governments.
FEMA programs that incentivize resilience
    FEMA's pre-disaster programs aimed at incentivizing resilience 
include preparedness and hazard mitigation grants. The Homeland 
Security Grant Program (HSGP) is one example of a preparedness grant 
program, described as ``a suite of risk-based grants to assist State, 
local, Tribal, and territorial efforts in preventing, protecting 
against, mitigating, responding to, and recovering from acts of 
terrorism and other threats.''
    Other examples of grants that incentivize resilience include FEMA's 
Building Resilient Infrastructure and Communities (BRIC) and Flood 
Mitigation Assistance (FMA) grant programs. BRIC was created through 
the Disaster Recovery Reform Act of 2018 with the aim of reducing 
disaster losses; both programs provide funding for communities to 
reduce risks and build resilience.
    FEMA's hazard mitigation grant programs have a demonstrable benefit 
to society. The National Institute of Building Sciences (NIBS) study 
Natural Hazard Mitigation Saves found that every $1 invested in 
disaster mitigation saves $6 in future disaster-related costs.
    A 2024 report--The Preparedness Payoff--by the U.S. Chamber of 
Commerce and AllState built on the NIBS findings and found that for 
every $1 invested in hazard mitigation, there is a return of $13 in 
reduced losses and economic savings.
    Following a disaster, FEMA incentivizes resilient reconstruction 
through its Hazard Mitigation Grant Program (HMGP), which provides 
post-disaster hazard mitigation funding based on estimated total 
Federal assistance provided following a Presidentially-declared 
disaster. This can be up to 15 percent (or 20 percent with a FEMA-
designated enhanced State mitigation plan), which can be spent on 
allowable hazard mitigation activities.
    And most importantly, mitigation measures not only save money--they 
save lives. More resilient homes, businesses, and infrastructure means 
individuals, employees, and families will be safe when disaster 
strikes.
FEMA programs that disincentivize resilience
    There are also FEMA grants that can be seen as disincentivizing 
State and local governments from investing in resilience. These are the 
post-disaster Public Assistance (PA) grants, particularly those focused 
on so-called ``permanent work.'' By providing a minimum reimbursement 
of 75 percent of disaster losses related to government infrastructure 
and buildings, the Federal Government provides de facto no-cost 
insurance to public entities. It does so without regard to any efforts 
made by these governments to reduce their risks.
    Under the current approach, the Federal Government agrees to 
reimburse a State receiving a disaster declaration at a minimum of 75 
percent of all costs, without regard to risk. No private insurance 
underwriter would agree to such terms. This creates a potential moral 
hazard, whereby the Federal Government shifts the costs of disaster 
risk from their communities to the Federal taxpayer.
    The most glaring of the various categories of Public Assistance is 
the so-called ``Category E--Public Buildings and contents.'' In the 20 
years from 1999 to 2019, FEMA provided $19 billion to States to 
reimburse them for their losses to public buildings and contents. At 22 
percent of the total amount obligated during this period, it represents 
the largest share of any permanent work category.
    FEMA and other stakeholders have long recognized both the burden 
such a program places on FEMA and Federal taxpayers and how it 
discourages State and local governments from investing in resilience. 
Consider this example from 25 years ago, described in a RAND study on 
the FEMA PA program:

``In 2000, FEMA published an advance notice of proposed rulemaking in 
the Federal Register outlining potential reforms to the PA program. In 
the notice, FEMA argued that, by paying for facility repair costs 
regardless of whether the facility had insurance, the PA program 
creates a disincentive for the owner to obtain insurance before a 
disaster occurs. OIG echoed these concerns several years later, 
stating, ``[T]he PA program pays for building repair costs following a 
first disaster. This effectively eliminates any incentive to purchase 
insurance before a disaster occurs.''

    In 2016, FEMA proposed a ``disaster deductible'' concept, which 
would have required a predetermined level of financial or other 
commitment from a State before providing PA funding.

``FEMA believes the deductible model would incentivize Recipients to 
make meaningful improvements in disaster planning, fiscal capacity for 
disaster response and recovery, and risk mitigation while contributing 
to more effective stewardship of taxpayer dollars. For example, 
Recipients could potentially receive credit toward their deductible 
requirement through proactive pre-event actions such as adopting 
enhanced building codes, establishing and maintaining a disaster relief 
fund or self-insurance plan, or adopting other measures that reduce the 
Recipient's risk from disaster events. The deductible model would 
increase stakeholder investment and participation in disaster recovery 
and building for future risk, thereby strengthening our nation's 
resilience to disaster events and reducing the cost of disasters in the 
long term.''

    More recently, in the first Trump administration, the President's 
fiscal year 2021 budget request included the following language (page 
112):

``FEMA's current program is a no-limit, no-premium insurance policy for 
State and local governments, which disincentivizes self-protection and 
burdens taxpayers with the risky decisions made by State and local 
governments. Eliminating this assistance will encourage State and local 
governments to more responsibly manage their risk, including better 
land management and planning, purchasing insurance, and/or investing in 
mitigation.''

    Despite the attention brought to Category E expenses over the past 
25 years, no actions were taken.
    Local governments own over 3 million buildings. Having the Federal 
taxpayer pay for damage to these insurable structures represents a 
missed opportunity to transfer risk off the Federal balance sheet and 
onto the private insurance markets. Thus, FEMA should consider 
eliminating eligibility for Category E projects.
    Moreover, with the development of innovative risk transfer 
solutions, such as parametric insurance (described below), public 
infrastructure once thought to be uninsurable could be covered by the 
private insurance markets. This means that FEMA could consider 
limiting, over time, other categories of PA beyond Category E as 
governments and the insurance industry adjust to a new reality of 
public-private burden sharing.
FEMA assistance to individuals vs homeowners/renters insurance
    Up to this point, we have focused on programs that provide funding 
to governments. But FEMA also provides funding to those impacted by 
disasters. The FEMA Individual and Households Program (IA) provides 
assistance to disaster survivors following a Presidential declaration. 
FEMA IA provides a safety net, nothing more, nothing less. Those with 
insurance will recover more quickly and more fully than those who rely 
solely on FEMA assistance.
    Insurance is a financial shock absorber for disasters. By 
purchasing homeowners or renters insurance, individuals are protecting 
themselves and their families against the financial trauma they would 
otherwise face in the wake of a disaster. This includes not only 
repairing or replacing your home and personal belongings, but also 
temporary housing and additional living expenses while you are 
displaced from your home. According to a recent study, those with 
property insurance were 82 percent less likely to have significant 
financial burdens after a hurricane than those without.
    FEMA should do its best to correct a belief among many Americans 
that they do not need insurance because the agency will make them 
whole.
    The process of buying insurance also forces homeowners (as well as 
business owners and governments) to understand their risks, and the 
price of these risks. Homeowners can consult home disaster guides 
produced by the industry-funded nonprofit Insurance Institute for 
Business & Home Safety to learn more about steps they can take to 
address these risks. Insurance agents and brokers can also help advise 
homeowners how best to mitigate these risks and potentially lower their 
premiums.
    Similarly, FEMA should encourage homeowners in disaster-prone areas 
to invest in hazard mitigation measures, such as retrofitting a home in 
a seismically active area or elevating a home in a flood zone. Some of 
these actions are relatively easy and affordable, such as reducing the 
risk of wildfire losses by removing brush around a home. Taking these 
steps can save lives, reduce financial losses, and even reduce 
insurance premiums. For more on this topic, see: Americans lack savings 
for unrelenting disasters.
    FEMA can incentivize individuals to take these actions by 
encouraging grant recipients (primarily States) to focus on community-
based programs. States on their own can also incentivize these actions 
through grant programs to homeowners.
              how fema can further incentivize resilience
    As discussed earlier, FEMA preparedness and hazard mitigation 
grants incentivize resilience, while post-disaster Public Assistance 
grants generally disincentive governments from investing in resilience. 
One exception to this rule of thumb is the Public Assistance incentive 
authority granted to FEMA in the 2018 Balanced Budget Act.
FEMA Public Assistance Incentive Policy
    The Public Assistance Incentive authority amends Section 406(b) of 
the Stafford Act to increase the Federal cost share of its PA programs 
for communities that take proactive steps to reduce hazards. The 
resilience measures identified in the statute--mitigation plans, 
insurance, emergency management programs, building codes, risk ratings, 
State/local mitigation funding, and tax incentives--aim to reduce 
financial losses and human suffering while getting communities up and 
running quickly after a disaster. By raising the Federal cost share for 
FEMA PA on a sliding scale from 75 percent to 85 percent, a community 
that takes proactive steps could receive millions of dollars more in 
post-disaster funding.
    At the tail end of the last administration, FEMA issued an interim 
Public Assistance Mitigation Cost Share Incentives Policy. However, as 
noted in a letter from BuildStrong America, signed by our firm and such 
organizations as the National Institute of Building Sciences and the 
U.S. Chamber of Commerce:
    While the law aimed to incentivize proactive State investments in 
risk reduction, the interim policy falls short of meeting Congressional 
intent, missing critical opportunities to operationalize key measures 
of the law.
    Instead of encouraging proactive State and local investments in 
disaster resilience, the interim policy spends additional taxpayer 
funds on post-disaster activities. Rather than encouraging pre-disaster 
mitigation, it focuses on post-disaster grant compliance. It disregards 
effective State-led resilience programs, neglects critical 
infrastructure, ignores the role of insurance, and fails to acknowledge 
the tools emergency managers could employ to build resilience.
    We encourage FEMA to revise the interim policy to foster a 
proactive approach to resilience. The policy should empower States, 
recognize successful programs, and prioritize essential mitigation 
measures to safeguard our communities from future disaster risks.
Insurance roadblocks
    Insurance is just as critical to achieving resilience as are 
preparedness and mitigation, yet applicants may not purchase insurance 
under existing FEMA grant programs. This poses a challenge for State 
and local officials who wish to reduce the financial risks to their 
communities. It also stands in contrast to other resilience measures 
which are eligible under FEMA grants programs. Thus, a community that 
has already taken other resilience actions is not eligible to protect 
their (and, in the case of those actions funded by Federal grants, the 
Federal taxpayers') investment.
    Further, the PA program creates additional challenges. Without 
insurance, a community struck by a disaster will be eligible for 
Federal assistance following a Presidential disaster declaration. Those 
with insurance will not. This creates a disincentive for governments to 
use insurance to protect themselves and their communities from the 
financial impacts of disasters, resulting in a potential moral hazard 
underwritten by the Federal taxpayer.
New challenges
    With recent reported staff cuts at FEMA, the agency is being asked 
to do more with less and may need to triage where it spends its limited 
resources. Historically, when its funding runs low or the agency is 
stretched thin due to current disasters, FEMA prioritizes the immediate 
needs of disaster survivors. Whether due to staff shortages or other 
resource constraints, this could mean a shift away from resilience 
activities, which could have significant long-term implications for 
communities at risk of disasters.
    Such a disruption could mean a larger role for State and local 
governments, and the insurance industry. The conversation about burden-
sharing among Federal, State, and local governments will become more 
acute. Even if programs continue to exist, staff shortages could mean 
delays in the delivery of assistance. Such delays could be financially 
untenable for State and local governments with cash-flow needs, making 
insurance more necessary for State and local governments.
    Thus, the insurance industry should be prepared to support State 
and local officials as they consider alternative funding arrangements, 
including budgeting for disasters with ``rainy day funds'' and placing 
insurance to reduce budget impacts.
              nfip and the private flood insurance market
    While FEMA takes an all-hazards approach, flooding remains a 
persistent peril, with 90 percent of natural disasters in the United 
States involving floods. Flooding disproportionately affects lower-
income communities, which are more vulnerable and more exposed to 
flooding. One way to help bridge the divide is by increasing 
participation in flood insurance. Studies have shown that individuals 
and communities with flood insurance recover better and faster than 
those without.
    It's important to keep in mind that insurance is but one piece of a 
flood resilience strategy, along with investment in risk reduction 
measures, enhanced access to flood risk data, and smarter land use 
planning. But, while insurance is a critical part of recovery from 
natural disasters, many households and businesses simply do not have 
adequate coverage for repairs and rebuilding.
    In fact, as stated in a recent report from Marsh McLennan's Torrent 
Technologies: ``There is a persistent and growing gap in funding flood 
losses through insurance. Closing this gap is essential for 
accelerating recovery, alleviating suffering, and enhancing flood 
resilience.''


    The reasons for low coverage rates vary and include affordability 
constraints, limited risk awareness, poor understanding of insurance, 
and behavioral biases in decision making. The continuing flood 
resilience gap in the United States means that many individuals, 
businesses, and communities do not have the financial resources to 
effectively recover following a flood or other disaster.
    We believe there are several ways to improve the public and private 
flood insurance markets, including:
    Strengthen the NFIP.--With current debt of more than $22 billion 
and hundreds of millions of dollars in interest payable annually, the 
NFIP needs reform and long-term reauthorization to become a sustainable 
source of flood insurance. A sound financial framework for the NFIP 
authorized by Congress would help reinforce the program.
    A key part of FEMA's sound financial framework is its new pricing 
methodology, Risk Rating 2.0. The rating program is intended to make 
NFIP premiums more actuarially sound to better reflect the underlying 
flood risk and recognize loss mitigation efforts. To address 
affordability concerns associated with the new risk-adjusted rates, 
Congress could consider authorizing targeted assistance, such as a 
means-tested assistance program.
    Protect the NFIP with reinsurance solutions.--Guy Carpenter, a 
business of Marsh McLennan, is FEMA's broker, securing reinsurance for 
the NFIP. Reinsurance is backed by professional reinsurers and capital 
market investors; these programs help to supplement the financial 
resources of the NFIP following significant flooding events, while at 
the same time protecting the NFIP and taxpayers by transferring risk. 
For example, Hurricane Harvey triggered a full reinsurance payout, 
saving taxpayers over $850 million.
    Grow the private flood market.--FEMA has proposed a package of NFIP 
reforms in which the agency recognizes the role of a private flood 
insurance market in supplementing and supporting the government-backed 
program. As flood risks increase, so too has the need for the private 
flood insurance market, which is expected to keep growing.
    At the same time, advances in risk assessment and data analytics 
are making the flood peril increasingly predictable and revealing that 
many properties--especially those outside FEMA flood zones--are at 
greater risk than previously understood.
    Private flood insurance can offer options that make purchasing 
flood coverage easier and more attractive. Each property that obtains 
flood coverage in the private market is a risk the NFIP and U.S. 
taxpayers do not have to bear. The private market offers the 
possibility for innovation and products to further close the flood 
insurance gap.
    Address gaps in NFIP coverage.--The NFIP has gaps in coverage for 
residential and commercial properties. For residential properties, 
additional living expenses (funds to pay living expenses while the 
flooded property is repaired) are not included in NFIP policies. For 
commercial properties, business interruption is not covered by NFIP. As 
we have seen in previous flood events, those homeowners and businesses 
without these types of coverage struggled to recover. Of note, private 
flood policies often do cover these expenses for homeowners and 
businesses.
    Embrace innovations such as parametric insurance.--To attract new 
stakeholders, the flood insurance market and its regulators must 
embrace innovative alternatives that complement the NFIP. One option 
that has gained increasing traction in recent years is parametric 
insurance, which deploys a measurable index with predefined triggers 
for payout.
    Unlike most forms of traditional property insurance, pricing is 
based primarily on the probability of the loss indexed being triggered, 
rather than by the specific risk of damage suffered by the benefit's 
recipients. Parametric solutions offer a more expedited contract 
payout, typically getting funds into the hands of those who have 
suffered a loss in a matter of days, which can accelerate recovery. 
This is particularly important when it comes to floods, as a delay in 
restoration can result in the proliferation of mold, which over time 
contributes to health problems.
    Promote excess flood coverage to complement the NFIP.--While the 
NFIP remains a valuable source of flood insurance, its coverage limits 
are insufficient for many higher-value properties with flood exposure. 
Such properties need excess coverage to supplement NFIP protection. For 
example, in the third quarter of 2023, the median price of homes sold 
in the United States was $431,000, according to Federal Reserve data; 
this substantially exceeds the NFIP dwelling limit of $250,000.
    Leverage existing NFIP incentive programs such as the Community 
Rating System (CRS).--CRS is a voluntary incentive program that 
recognizes and encourages community floodplain management practices 
that exceed the NFIP's minimum requirements. Over 1,500 communities 
participate nationwide.
    In CRS communities, flood insurance premium rates are discounted to 
reflect the reduced flood risk that results from community efforts to 
address the program's three goals:
    1. Reduce and avoid flood damage to insurable property.
    2. Strengthen and support the insurance aspects of the NFIP.
    3. Foster comprehensive floodplain management.
    Tulsa, Oklahoma, and Roseville, California, are the only 2 
communities to have achieved the highest rating of Class 1. NFIP policy 
holders in these cities receive the CRS program maximum discount of 45 
percent. Both communities made concerted efforts to invest in flood 
resilience following catastrophic flooding events.
    See also: As Floods Become Bigger and More Common, Risks from 
Insurance Gaps Also Grow.
             innovative state and local resilience programs
    As FEMA has put in place resilience programs, States too have 
launched programs that build resilience.
    While Federal resilience grants often receive the most attention, 
several States are allocating State budgets and leveraging other 
funding sources to build resilience programs. For example, South 
Carolina's Strategic Statewide Resilience and Risk Reduction Plan is 
notable because it's not simply a plan; the State provided $200 million 
to fund identified project priorities, largely focused on flood 
resilience.
    Other States offer resilience grant programs directed to 
homeowners. Many of these programs are in the southeastern United 
States and focus on home retrofits for wind events, such as hurricanes 
and tornadoes.
    Alabama.--The Strengthen Alabama Homes program provides grants for 
homeowners to fund wind mitigation measures for single-family homes. 
The grants pay 100 percent of mitigation costs up to $10,000 to meet 
the Insurance Institute for Business and Home Safety (IBHS) 
FORTIFIEDTM standard, designed to reduce wind and wind-
driven water impacts caused by hurricanes. Funding for this program is 
provided by the insurance industry, rather than the Government (which 
administers the program).
    Given the program has been providing homeowners grants for a 
decade, researchers from the University of Alabama, Auburn University, 
and the University of Mississippi sought to determine the benefits of 
the program, and of hazard mitigation investments more broadly. Their 
landmark study empirically demonstrated the value of hazard mitigation 
investments, providing strong incentives for homeowners to invest in 
hazard mitigation:
   Lower insurance premiums.--Fortified homes have 16 percent 
        to 40 percent lower property insurance premiums.
   Higher resale value.--Fortified homes sell for 6 percent to 
        7 percent more than other homes.
    This is not a Federal program, but a standard promulgated by a non-
profit organization (IBHS) together with a State statute linked to 
insurance premiums and real estate market dynamics. The study's 
findings demonstrate that a homeowner can be incentivized to invest in 
hazard mitigation even in the absence of Federal funding.
    Florida.--My Safe Florida Home Program aims at strengthening homes 
against hurricanes. Owners of single-family homes and townhouses may 
apply for a free home hurricane inspection. If recommended by the 
inspection, homeowners become eligible to apply for financial 
assistance for improvements to roofs, doors, and windows. It is a 
matching program--for every $1 invested by the homeowner the State will 
provide $2 toward the project, equivalent to two-thirds of the project 
cost, up to $10,000. The program also waives State sales tax (6 
percent) on the retail purchases of impact-resistant doors, garage 
doors, and windows. The Florida legislature provided over $176 million 
for the program.
    South Carolina.--The South Carolina Safe Home program, administered 
by the South Carolina Department of Insurance, provides matching and 
non-matching grant funds to help coastal property owners retrofit their 
homes to make them more resistant to hurricanes and high winds. The 
funds provided by the program are for the sole purpose of retrofitting 
owner-occupied, single-family homes.
    Louisiana.--Louisiana officials launched a $30 million hazard 
mitigation grant program for residential and commercial buildings, 
modeled on the above-mentioned Alabama program. The grants will provide 
up to $10,000 to retrofit roofs to a Fortified home standard, thereby 
making Louisiana homes and businesses more resilient to hurricanes. 
Unlike the Alabama program, which is funded by the insurance industry, 
the Louisiana program is State-funded. Similar to what researchers 
found in Alabama, Louisiana residents who retrofit or build their homes 
to the Fortified standard could save 20 percent to over 50 percent on 
the wind portion of their homeowner's insurance.
Building codes and zoning laws
    Local officials have significant influence over the resilience of 
their communities because they can determine how and where residential 
and commercial structures are sited and built. This is best 
demonstrated through zoning and building code ordinances. By requiring 
that structures be situated outside disaster-prone areas and built to a 
resilient standard, local officials can reduce disaster impacts to 
their communities. NIBS has determined that adopting a disaster-
resistant model building code results in a savings of $11 for every $1 
spent to adopt and enforce the code.
    In the decades since Hurricane Andrew struck southern Florida in 
1992, the State has developed some of the country's strongest building 
codes, which are credited with significantly reducing the damage from 
hurricanes. Among other things, Florida's building codes require new 
construction to withstand high winds, floodwaters, and other storm-
related stresses. This has helped protect homes and reduced the overall 
impact hurricanes have on communities, avoiding more than $1 billion in 
average insured losses for Florida alone.
                 community-based catastrophe insurance
    An innovative approach to boost financial protection for 
communities that Marsh McLennan is involved in is known as community-
based catastrophe insurance (CBCI). Essentially, CBCI provides disaster 
insurance arranged by a local government, quasi-governmental body, or 
community group to cover a group of properties.
    The benefits of CBCI fall into 3 main areas: enhancing financial 
resilience, providing affordable coverage, and creating incentives for 
risk reduction at the community and individual levels (see Figure 1).


    This type of program is flexible and can be created to cover a 
single hazard or a range of natural disasters for a given community, 
including floods, wildfires, earthquakes, and others. Such broad 
applications can further incentivize a community's risk management 
efforts--risk reduction, risk communication, and risk transfer--across 
multiple perils.
    One benefit of community-based catastrophe insurance is the 
flexibility it allows in defining ``community,'' which can be an agency 
or municipal government, a neighborhood association, a business 
improvement district, or any number of entities. The primary 
requirement is that the involved community has the authority to secure 
or facilitate insurance coverage on behalf of multiple properties.
    Within broad parameters, CBCI has much flexibility in its structure 
and design, with varying degrees of community responsibilities possible 
(see Figure 2). These range from a facilitator model, where the 
community members contract with insurers, to a captive insurer, in 
which the community establishes and operates its own risk-bearing 
entity.


    To facilitate these types of transactions, it would be helpful for 
FEMA to allow eligibility for grant funding for CBCI, and to clarify 
whether the proceeds from a parametric insurance policy (specifically 
tailored to cover losses not eligible under the Public Assistance 
program) can count toward the State's Public Assistance matching 
requirement.
A CBCI pilot program: Boosting financial resilience in NYC 
        neighborhoods
    Marsh McLennan is currently involved with a project in New York 
City, which is the Nation's first CBCI. The project's goal is to 
increase the financial resilience of low- and moderate-income 
households to flood risk. These communities are increasingly vulnerable 
to flooding and are, in many instances, under-insured or uninsured.
    Guy Carpenter, a business of Marsh McLennan, is working with the 
city of New York; the non-profits Center for NYC Neighborhoods (CNYCN), 
Environmental Defense Fund, and SBP; reinsurer Swiss Re; and insurtechs 
ICEYE and Raincoat to pilot the program in designated neighborhoods.
    The program, which was recently renewed for a second year, is built 
on a parametric model, described earlier. Once a qualified event 
triggers a payment, homeowners can apply for assistance. Qualified 
applicants can then quickly receive a grant up to $15,000 from CNYCN 
following a qualified flood event.
    The payments will support residents and their broader communities 
in getting back to normal faster. We are proud to have helped kickstart 
this innovative program and hope it will help other communities to 
establish their own CBCI program. Federal grant funding could be a 
catalyst here.
                      public-private partnerships
What the insurance industry can do
    Public-private collaboration involving policy makers is essential 
for developing sustainable solutions.
    Relationships matter in insurance. For example, insurance agents 
often have strong connections with homeowners and businesses in their 
communities. We believe that agents and brokers talking with clients 
about their exposure and ways they can manage the risk and build 
resilience is a good way for them to demonstrate their value and 
enhance those relationships. Likewise, insurers and reinsurers should 
see how resilience actions by their insureds not only reduce risks to 
an individual home or business, but also to the (re)insurer's 
portfolio.
    The insurance industry and FEMA should work with national 
stakeholder organizations that advocate and educate on the importance 
of resilience as a force multiplier at the State and local levels. For 
example, BuildStrong America has advocated for increased investments in 
resilience on the Federal and State level for over a decade. Joining 
forces with firefighters, emergency responders, insurers, engineers, 
architects, contractors, manufacturers, consumer organizations, code 
specialists, and many others committed to resilience, BuildStrong 
successfully pushed for the Disaster Recovery Reform Act of 2018. The 
Act created FEMA's BRIC program, as well as additional measures to 
enhance BRIC through proposals like the Resilient AMERICA Act, which 
would create a set-aside for building code adoption and enforcement and 
another set-aside for residential retrofits.
    The Federal Alliance for Safe Homes (FLASH) is the leading consumer 
advocate for strengthening homes and safeguarding families from natural 
and manmade disasters. Through programs like Inspect2Protect--which 
helps local communities and individuals to understand the building code 
where they live--and The Homeowner's Guide to Insurance, FLASH designs 
and develops effective and easy-to-use tools and techniques to foster 
mitigation behavior change.
    The insurance industry and other stakeholders should work with FEMA 
and consensus-based model code-developing organizations, such as the 
International Code Council (ICC), to encourage additional hazard 
mitigation opportunities and investments for communities and 
individuals. For example, FEMA and the insurance industry could 
encourage modern code adoption and enforcement requirements following a 
major disaster. Currently, only repair and reconstruction of public 
facilities is required to be done to the latest editions of model 
codes.
How the private sector can incentivize resilience
    In addition to FEMA's preparedness and hazard mitigation grants, 
the finance, insurance, and real estate industries can also incentivize 
resilience investments. The National Institute of Building Sciences 
(NIBS) developed a road map for resilience incentives, specifically 
focused on residential buildings subject to flood. NIBS identified 
``co-beneficiaries'' of mitigation investments and highlighted how 
these co-beneficiaries can help pay for such investments (see Figures 4 
and 5).


    Engaging co-beneficiaries is not without its challenges, as the 
NIBS report highlights:
    1. Mitigation saves, but it doesn't do so in proportion to 
        individual stakeholder investments.--Investment in disaster 
        resilience makes financial sense for society--but for 
        individual stakeholders the cost can seem to exceed the 
        benefits.
    For example, the $5,000 it might cost to retrofit an existing house 
        benefits the current owner, future owners, insurers (by 
        limiting the risk of flood-related claims, assuming the 
        property is insured against flood), financial institutions 
        holding the property owner's mortgage, and so forth. The 
        retrofit saves society more than it costs in places with at 
        least a 1-in-100 chance of basement flooding per year. It saves 
        up to 13 times the cost in the highest hazard locations.
    But, to the homeowner paying the entire cost, the investment can 
        seem hard to justify. (Building for flood resilience at the 
        time of initial construction is less expensive and more cost-
        effective, and it makes sense even when flooding occurs less 
        frequently.)
    2. Co-beneficiaries can share the cost of such investments--but 
        they face similar challenges to those of the property owner.--
        In the $5,000 basement-flood retrofit example, mortgage holders 
        and governments would save in the long run by offering a total 
        of $3,300 in incentives anywhere with at least a 1-in-100 
        chance of basement flooding per year. Homeowners would end up 
        paying only $1,700 and saving more than they pay in both 
        moderate- as well as high-hazard locations. Why don't co-
        beneficiaries provide these incentives? Because stakeholders' 
        interests are intertwined, but not aligned.
    3. Public-private coordination is essential.--Co-beneficiaries are 
        interested in aligning incentives, though it would require 
        engagement from governments and industry stakeholders.
    Engaging industry and government stakeholders to align resilience 
incentives is essential, just as we raised with the financial services 
sector at a U.S. Department of the Treasury roundtable following 
Hurricanes Helene and Milton.
                  a comprehensive resilience strategy
    Federal, State, and local officials need a clear vision that moves 
beyond unsustainable paradigms of protection and strikes a balance 
between addressing crises and fostering resilience. Insurance and risk 
transfer certainly have an important role to play, but must be combined 
with a broader, coordinated resilience strategy.
    Ideally, insurance would be paired with risk reduction measures 
such as hazard mitigation, building codes adoption, enforcement, 
retrofits, and community resilience planning. While a few States (such 
as those mentioned earlier) have their own resilience grant programs, 
the preponderance of resilience grant funding is provided by the 
Federal Government, principally FEMA (such as through the BRIC and FMA 
programs).
    Pairing these Federal and/or State grants with risk transfer 
solutions can be a force multiplier. We believe that CBCI projects, 
like the NYC pilot, demonstrate the value of risk reduction measures 
alongside the benefits of risk transfer. We would like to see FEMA 
encourage more such innovation and experimentation.
    That said, CBCI and other private risk transfer programs could be 
more successful if disincentives present in existing statutes and 
regulations are addressed. For example, the Stafford Act contains 
disincentives for homeowners and governments from purchasing insurance 
because FEMA's recovery programs provide funding to uninsured 
individuals and State and local governments after a disaster.
    As such, many individuals wrongly believe they will be made whole 
by FEMA assistance following a major disaster. Meanwhile, governments 
are not inclined to insure their buildings and infrastructure because 
they will receive funding that covers most of their losses if the 
President declares a disaster. Mitigation investment will fall short of 
desired outcomes without corresponding risk transfer strategies.
                               conclusion
    Given the scale and complexity of the challenges presented by 
disaster risk, we believe that FEMA plays a vital role in preparing 
for, responding to, and mitigating disasters. As with any long-standing 
organization, it is good to revisit its mission, tools, and impact at 
times, and we are glad to have been asked to participate in this 
hearing.
    While the effects of disasters are felt most acutely in the States 
and communities where they occur, their ripple effects extend more 
broadly to human, economic, and social costs such as supply chain 
disruptions, infrastructure failure, and hardship to the economy. Over 
time, FEMA has had a positive influence in helping to mitigate and 
manage the risks.
    Today, conventional strategies and policies are insufficient to 
address the rapidly-changing risk levels, and it appears we are at a 
time in which market forces are helping to drive decision making toward 
the social good promoted by resilience.
    The Federal Government's unqualified financial support of the 
Nation's spiraling disaster recovery costs is unsustainable. FEMA and 
emergency management agencies at all levels of government need to 
embrace a proactive approach that prioritizes preparedness, hazard 
mitigation, and insurance. In short, disaster resilience. But 
governments alone cannot solve this challenge.
    Achieving resilience will require partnerships between governments 
and private industry. Together, the public and private sectors can 
incentivize individuals and governments to reduce disaster impacts and 
build resilience in their homes, and their communities.

    Mr. Strong. Thank you, Dr. Kaniewski.
    I now recognize Ms. Speranza, there we go, for 5 minutes to 
summarize her opening statements.

  STATEMENT OF CARRIE SPERANZA, CERTIFIED EMERGENCY MANAGER, 
  PRESIDENT, U.S. COUNCIL OF THE INTERNATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF 
                       EMERGENCY MANAGERS

    Ms. Speranza. Good morning, Chairman Strong, Ranking Member 
Kennedy, and Members of the subcommittee. My name is Carrie 
Speranza and I'm appearing before you today as president of the 
U.S. Council of the International Association of Emergency 
Managers, an organization representing emergency management 
practitioners world-wide, with over 5,000 U.S. members.
    Members of the subcommittee, your local, State, Tribal, and 
territorial emergency management agencies ensure your 
communities are prepared to respond to and recover from 
emergencies and disasters. We create and manage systems that 
save lives, minimize damage to property and infrastructure, 
mitigate future risks, and help restore communities after a 
disaster. We are grateful to be a part of today's conversation 
because we know that our efforts are only possible with the 
support of the Federal Emergency Management Agency.
    To serve our communities effectively, disaster management 
must be Federally supported, State administered, and locally 
executed. Together with the private industry, this multi-sector 
approach is a necessary partnership, particularly when 
disasters overwhelm local and State resources. Reform of 
Federal disaster programs is long overdue, but I'd like to 
highlight a few FEMA programs that must be sustained through 
this process and also speak to opportunities for change.
    First, sustainment. FEMA must maintain its role in driving 
change through its preparedness programs. These programs serve 
as the underlying foundation from which all local and State 
emergency management capabilities are derived. Through this 
investment, FEMA helps to establish national standards for 
State and local personnel so that assets could be provided 
through mutual aid. This capability is essential as illustrated 
by Hurricanes Helene and Milton, where over 6,300 public safety 
personnel deployed for 290 mutual aid missions.
    Preparedness is not a matter of insurance before a 
disaster. Instead, these FEMA preparedness programs provide 
assurances that we can aid each other in times of disaster, and 
preparing through planning, training, exercising, and 
standardization is crucial.
    FEMA's hazard mitigation programs must also be sustained as 
they drive long-term change by helping communities safeguard 
against future risk. Without FEMA's partnership, communities 
will become more vulnerable. As the National Institute of 
Building Sciences outlined in its 2019 ``Mitigation Saves'' 
report, public-sector grant investments in mitigation save $6 
for every $1 spent, meaning mitigating risks is simply good 
business.
    Opportunities for change. First, reform must prioritize 
building a disaster-resistant America by incentivizing and 
rewarding smart decision making and fiscal responsibility at 
the local and State levels. Examples include establishing and 
adhering to building codes in all communities and requiring 
adequate property and rental insurance.
    Additionally, jurisdiction should prioritize emergency 
management as a necessary function to invest in. All States 
should establish a disaster relief fund as their first line of 
defense to provide immediate aid to survivors before calling on 
FEMA to help. FEMA can play a role in incentivizing these 
actions by increasing preparedness and pre-disaster mitigation 
assistance or by reducing the non-Federal cost share 
requirements post-disaster.
    The second opportunity for reform involves efforts to 
minimize long-term recovery costs by adjusting the disaster 
declaration process and establishing a Federal long-term 
recovery exit strategy. FEMA has the expertise that provides 
communities with best practices for long-term recovery planning 
and coordination, making them an invaluable partner at the 
onset of the recovery process. However, a calculated exit 
strategy that transitions leadership to the local jurisdiction 
coupled with recovery funds will help everyone when they need 
it most and the decrease in extended Federal oversight will 
expedite the rebuilding process.
    Recent ideas about FEMA reform have included shifting 
response and recovery responsibilities and block grant 
administration to the States. I want to offer that this 
approach will only work if the methodology is transparent and 
financial controls are implemented. To reduce long-term 
recovery costs, policies must require a mandatory minimum 
passthrough to the jurisdictions affected by the disaster. This 
will ensure that resources are not redirected to non-disaster-
related activities.
    Finally, to implement any of these recommendations, 
Congress must amend the Stafford Act, providing a modernized 
framework for FEMA to operate more effectively. It is a 
necessary step in this process and we need your help.
    Mr. Chairman and Ranking Member, the International 
Association of Emergency Managers fully supports a 
comprehensive review and reform of FEMA. Reform will ultimately 
help the people of America. That is what emergency managers do: 
we help people before, during, and after disasters.
    Thank you again for the opportunity to be here today and I 
look forward to your questions.
    [The prepared statement of Ms. Speranza follows:]
                 Prepared Statement of Carrie Speranza
                             March 4, 2025
    Good morning, Chairman Strong, Ranking Member Kennedy, and Members 
of the subcommittee. My name is Carrie Speranza, and I am appearing 
before you today as president of the U.S. Council of the International 
Association of Emergency Managers, an organization representing 
emergency management practitioners world-wide with more than 5,000 U.S. 
members.
    Members of the subcommittee, your local, State, Tribal, and 
territorial emergency management agencies ensure your communities are 
prepared to respond to and recover from emergencies and disasters. We 
create and manage systems that save lives, minimize damage to property 
and infrastructure, mitigate future risks, and help restore communities 
after a disaster. We are grateful to be a part of today's conversation 
because we know that our efforts are only possible with the support of 
the Federal Emergency Management Agency.
    To serve our communities effectively, disaster management must be 
Federally-supported, State-administered, and locally-executed. Together 
with private industry, this multi-sector approach is a necessary 
partnership, particularly when disasters overwhelm local and State 
resources.
    Reform of Federal disaster programs is long overdue, but I'd like 
to highlight a few FEMA programs that must be sustained through this 
process, and also speak to opportunities for change.
    First, sustainment. FEMA must maintain its role in driving change 
through its preparedness programs. These programs serve as the 
underlying foundation from which all local and State emergency 
management capabilities are derived. Through this investment, FEMA 
helps to establish national standards for State and local personnel so 
that assets can be provided through mutual aid. This capability is 
essential, as illustrated by Hurricanes Helene and Milton, where over 
6,300 public safety personnel deployed for 290 mutual aid missions. 
Preparedness is not a matter of insurance before a disaster. Instead, 
these FEMA preparedness programs provide assurances that we can aid 
each other in times of disaster, and preparing through planning, 
training, exercising, and standardization is crucial.
    FEMA's hazard mitigation programs must also be sustained, as they 
drive long-term change by helping communities safeguard against future 
risk. Without FEMA's partnership, communities will become more 
vulnerable. As the National Institute of Building Sciences outlined in 
its 2019 Mitigation Saves report, public-sector grant investments in 
mitigation save $6 for every $1 spent, meaning mitigating risks is 
simply good business.
    Opportunities for change. First, reform must prioritize building a 
disaster-resistant America by incentivizing and rewarding ``smart 
decision making'' and fiscal responsibility at the local and State 
levels. Examples include establishing and adhering to building codes in 
all communities and requiring adequate property and rental insurance. 
Additionally, jurisdictions should prioritize emergency management as a 
necessary function to invest in, and all States should establish a 
disaster relief fund as their first line of defense to provide 
immediate aid to survivors before calling on FEMA to help. FEMA can 
play a role in incentivizing these actions by increasing preparedness 
and pre-disaster mitigation assistance or reducing the non-Federal 
cost-share requirements post-disaster.
    The second opportunity for reform involves efforts to minimize 
long-term recovery costs by adjusting the disaster declaration process 
and establishing a Federal long-term recovery exit strategy. FEMA has 
the expertise that provides communities with best practices for long-
term recovery planning and coordination, making them an invaluable 
partner at the onset of the recovery process. However, a calculated 
exit strategy that transitions leadership to the local jurisdiction, 
coupled with recovery funds, will help everyone when they need it most, 
and the decrease in extended Federal oversight will expedite the 
rebuilding process.
    Recent ideas about FEMA reform have included shifting response and 
recovery responsibilities and block grant administration to the States. 
I want to offer that this approach will only work if the methodology is 
transparent and financial controls are implemented. To reduce long-term 
recovery costs, policies must require a mandatory minimum pass-through 
to the jurisdictions affected by the disaster. This will ensure that 
resources are not redirected to non-disaster-related activities.
    Finally, to implement any of these recommendations, Congress must 
amend the Stafford Act, providing a modernized framework for FEMA to 
operate more effectively. It is a necessary step in this process, and 
we need your help.
    Mr. Chairman and Ranking Member, the International Association of 
Emergency Managers fully supports a comprehensive review and reform of 
FEMA. Reform will ultimately help the people of America, and that is 
what emergency managers do. We help people before, during, and after 
disasters.
    Thank you again for the opportunity to be here today, and I look 
forward to your questions.

    Mr. Strong. Thank you, Ms. Speranza.
    I now recognize Mr. Manning for 5 minutes to summarize his 
opening statement.

 STATEMENT OF TIMOTHY MANNING, FORMER DEPUTY ADMINISTRATOR FOR 
    PROTECTION AND NATIONAL PREPAREDNESS, FEDERAL EMERGENCY 
                       MANAGEMENT AGENCY

    Mr. Manning. Chairman Strong, Ranking Member Kennedy, 
Members of the subcommittee, good morning. I'm Tim Manning. 
Thank you for the opportunity to testify today on the state of 
FEMA.
    FEMA is truly at a tipping point, as is our national 
emergency management system. The timing of this hearing 
couldn't be more critical. Over the past 30 years, I've served 
at all levels of emergency management, from county fire and EMS 
to the state to FEMA to the White House. FEMA has never been 
more called upon and its work force more stretched thin. The 
growing frequency of catastrophic disasters and a once-in-a-
century pandemic have had wide-spread impacts on emergency 
management writ large. This changing hazard landscape and the 
operations tempo is now coupled with indiscriminate firings, 
regressive changes in policy, and freezes in funding, all 
resulting in significant impacts on the Nation's preparedness 
for emergencies, disasters, and terrorist attacks.
    These impacts are far wider than just the Federal Emergency 
Management Agency. FEMA is but the Federal player in a broader 
collective team. In a disaster, when the crisis exceeds the 
capabilities of a local government, that local government 
requests assistance from the State and when it exceeds the 
ability of that State, they request the help of the Federal 
Government from the President. FEMA, on behalf of the 
President, is the executor of that assistance. FEMA coordinates 
the Federal Government's response, but does not assume command 
of the overall response. States have always and continue to 
bear the primary responsibility and those and who, along with 
their local governments, respond to a great deal more 
emergencies and disasters than FEMA ever gets involved in.
    It was in the 1970's, for example, that after decades of 
fragmented and uneven support from the Federal Government that 
the southern Governors requested of the President that FEMA be 
created. Eliminating or drastically reducing the size and role 
of FEMA at this time would be intentionally rolling back hard-
learned lessons, erasing 70 years of reforms rooted in trying 
to avoid the mistakes of the past.
    Continuing to learn, however, is important. Rebuilding 
roads, bridges, hospitals can take time and Government 
contracting and oversight rules to prevent fraud, waste, and 
abuse can be burdensome. But when the public complains about 
disaster response, saying where's FEMA, it's usually individual 
assistance that they need. The rules create their challenges 
that many Americans struggle to overcome, and misinformation 
exacerbates these challenges. Public assistance reforms such as 
block grants could benefit State and local government 
administrative operations and individual assistance reforms 
would benefit disaster survivors more directly and more 
visibly.
    Reform should also include a review of FEMA's operational 
response capabilities, such as the 28 Urban Search and Rescue 
teams, the MERS Disaster Emergency Communications units. The 
resources provided to these critical assets have not kept up 
with the significant increase in the number of disaster 
deployments. But FEMA's strongest asset is its work force. For 
its mission FEMA is relatively small. It has no helicopters, no 
airplanes, no ships. Its strength is in its people. The recent 
firing of the agency's CFO and grants management staff for 
managing a Congressionally-authorized and -appropriated program 
has had a dramatic chilling effect.
    The indiscriminate firing of a wide range of people and 
expectations of more has hurt morale and operational capacity. 
Its whole work force is critical. As is true across the 
emergency management profession, every FEMA employee has a 
disaster response role. Whether someone's day job is managing a 
terrorism grant or flood insurance, everyone in FEMA also has a 
second responsibility in which they support a disaster 
response. They work in an EOC or deploy downrange to support 
survivors. Everyone is critical.
    Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member, Members of the subcommittee, 
almost 20 years ago, I was here testifying on almost this exact 
same issue, were FEMA and DHS structured correctly and were the 
dramatic unilateral changes put in at that time responsible for 
poor response? Congress passed reforms and the administration 
at that time listened.
    In the ensuing decades, the Nation has made dramatic 
improvements. Congress' investments and capabilities through 
grants and legislative reform have resulted in more prepared 
communities. Mitigated disasters provided a more effective 
response. It's saved lives. Recovery is still challenging and 
slow to implement. The individual assistance provided to people 
and families is complicated and often less than anticipated by 
the public. Reforms to those programs would be greatly 
beneficial, but there should be no question of the need for a 
single Federal coordinating agency working with Governors in 
support of the American people.
    Mr. Chairman, thank you for the opportunity this morning. I 
look forward to your questions. Thank you.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Manning follows:]
                 Prepared Statement of Timothy Manning
                             March 4, 2025
    Chairman Strong, Ranking Member Kennedy, Members of the 
subcommittee; good morning. I am Tim Manning, thank you for the 
opportunity to testify today on the state of FEMA and emergency 
management in America. From 2009 to 2017 I served as the deputy 
administrator of FEMA for Protection and National Preparedness, 
coordinating the Nation's efforts to build capabilities to prevent, 
protect against, mitigate, response, and recover from all emergencies 
and disasters and acts of terrorism. Prior to joining FEMA, I served in 
the State of New Mexico's emergency management agency, where after 
joining as a career civil servant, I later served as State director of 
emergency management, secretary of homeland security and emergency 
management, and homeland security advisor to the Governor. I've been a 
local government wildland and urban firefighter and EMT and served in 
non-governmental emergency response organizations. More recently I 
served in the White House helping coordinate the response to the COVID-
19 pandemic. Now, among other roles, I am on the faculty at Georgetown 
University where I teach courses in the theory and legal frameworks of 
emergency management. In short, over the past 30 years I have served at 
all levels of emergency management in operational, policy, and academic 
roles.
    FEMA has never been more called upon and its workforce stretched 
more thin. A growing frequency of catastrophic disasters and a once-in-
a-century pandemic have had wide-spread impacts on emergency management 
writ large. This changing hazard landscape and operations tempo is now 
coupled with indiscriminate firings, regressive changes in policy, and 
freezes in funding resulting in significant impacts on the Nation's 
preparedness for emergencies, disasters, and potential terrorist 
attacks and the impacts are far wider than just the Federal Emergency 
Management Agency.
    We're here today to discuss whether FEMA and its programs are 
adequate to serve the needs of the American people. We're considering 
the future of FEMA, but I think it is valuable to consider it as the 
state of emergency management in the United States. It's tempting to 
look at FEMA as a typical distinct Federal agency, with unitary 
programs and operational capabilities, in a severable fashion. Most 
Federal agencies operate solely within discrete Federal authority. FEMA 
however, does not work in that kind of environment. As we discuss the 
future of FEMA, I believe we must take a wider, holistic look at the 
key role FEMA plays Nation's preparedness, the President's directive to 
study it's potential elimination, the impacts to the workforce from 
recent and planned indiscriminate firings, the dangers posed by the 
freezing of critical preparedness assistance, and the blind eye turned 
to the impacts of a changing climate.
    It is important to understand these impacts to FEMA in the context 
of the American system of emergency management. Unique in our local, 
State, and Federal Government relationships, emergency management is a 
collaborative, mutually supporting system, one where unlike any other 
crisis response, when the Federal Government becomes involved, it does 
not assume command and control or exert Federal preeminence. In most 
other crisis situations, for example the FBI in an act of terrorism or 
the U.S. Coast Guard in an oil spill, the Federal Government response 
is exerting Federal authority and assumes legal command and control. In 
disaster response however, each additional level of governmental 
involvement comes in support of the impacted community. FEMA's 
involvement following a Presidential declaration is one of support to 
the State, working in partnership. FEMA coordinates the Federal 
Government's response, but does not assume command of the overall 
response. When a crisis exceeds the capabilities of a local government, 
and they need assistance from beyond their capacity, they request help 
from the State. And when it exceeds the ability and resources of a 
State, and the State needs capabilities beyond what any one State can 
support, they request that help from the President. And on behalf of 
the President, FEMA is the executor of that assistance.
                    the future of fema as an agency
    There has been much discussion of late of eliminating FEMA and 
shifting the responsibility to the States. Aside from the point that 
the States have always and continue to bear the primary responsibility 
for disaster response, and who along with their local governments 
respond to a great deal more emergencies and disasters than FEMA ever 
gets involved with, an unwinding of FEMA would be an erasing of more 
than 70 years of learning from mistakes. Our American system of 
emergency management is born of learning from prior disasters. Prior to 
the 1950's, Federal support to States in disasters was ad-hoc and 
financial support was strictly the result of Congressional emergency 
action. Following the enaction of the Civil Defense Act and the Federal 
Disaster Relief Act in 1950, the U.S. Government began to be more 
thoughtful and coordinated in its response, but preparedness and 
response were still separate, and the structure put the majority of the 
burden on the States. By the 1970's disaster assistance was still 
spread among a variety of agencies and Federal support was fragmented. 
This decentralized system was challenging and led to poor responses, so 
at the urging of southern Governors, FEMA was created. Again, learning 
from what worked and what didn't, a lessons-learned approach, drove the 
Federal Government to centralize the coordination efforts, creating a 
more efficient system and empowering an agency to act on behalf of the 
President in marshaling the resources of the Federal. Eliminating or 
drastically reducing the size and role of FEMA would be intentionally 
rolling back hard-learned lessons, erasing 70 years of reforms rooted 
in trying to avoid the mistakes of the past.
    The very nature of emergency management is preparing for events for 
which no one level of government or one jurisdiction can manage, either 
operationally or financially. It was created out of necessity through 
tragedy and a commitment to learn from the hard-won lessons of the 
past. The American emergency management system of 2025 is one of 
intergovernmental collaboration and cooperation to combine forces and 
efforts to provide for those most in need. If one were to eliminate any 
one element of that system, one would simply need to recreate it, in 
whole or in part, and in the mean time suffer the inefficiency and 
suboptimization that would result.
    In recent months, FEMA has undergone unrelenting criticism of its 
disaster assistance efforts, much of it rooted in misunderstanding and 
rumors, but also intentional misinformation. This criticism and 
misinformation has led the administration to discuss eliminating the 
agency altogether. Identifying those specific elements of law, policy, 
or grant guidance in need of reform are critical. But it is also 
important to step back and examine what those impacted by disasters see 
and what they're dissatisfied with.
    In this Federalized system, local, State, and Federal Governments 
work together, but that is largely transparent and unrecognized by the 
public. As with every complicated and professional endeavor, the 
intergovernmental structures and systems of how it all comes together 
is complicated and nuanced. And that often results in muddled 
narratives and communication.
           disaster assistance reforms and public perception
    Administratively, emergency managers discuss disaster assistance as 
``public assistance'' (funds to rebuild public infrastructure) or 
``individual assistance'' (funds given to individuals and families to 
help support their recovery). In many cases, public assistance can be 
very expensive and take many years; rebuilding roads, bridges, 
hospitals, and schools can take time, and Government contracting and 
oversite rules to prevent fraud, waste, and abuse can be burdensome.
    But often when the public complains about disaster response, 
``where's FEMA,'' what they are referring to is help to them personally 
and their property. It's debris removal, its direct assistance, and its 
financial assistance, it is individual assistance. Many of the 
administrative and legal rules, for example the prohibition on 
duplication of benefits creates challenges many Americans struggle to 
overcome.
    FEMA's response and recovery programs could be improved with a 
potential broad review of authorities and limitations, and an overall 
simplification. While public assistance reforms would benefit State and 
local government administrative operations, individual assistance 
reforms would benefit disaster survivors more directly and visibly. The 
need for reform at FEMA should also include a review of FEMA's Response 
assets. FEMA's operations response capability, its logistics 
distribution and its field teams such as the 28 Urban Search and Rescue 
teams it sponsors and Mobile Emergency Response System disaster 
emergency communications units need augmentation. The significant 
increase in the amount of disasters that require these assets has not 
kept up with resources provided for maintenance, replacement, training, 
and staffing. As a Nation we have benefited from the dedication, 
professionalism, and technical skills of these professionals to always 
make it work.
                            fema's workforce
    Another lesson learned from previous disasters is reflected in 
FEMA's workforce structure. For its mission, FEMA is relatively small. 
According to OPM data, FEMA is roughly half the size of ICE and a 
quarter the size of Customs and Border Protection. FEMA has no 
helicopters, airplanes, or heavy machinery, its strength is in its 
people. FEMA's role is that of a conductor of an orchestra, marshaling 
the whole of the Federal Government's resources to support the needs of 
a State. The recent firing of the agency's chief financial officer and 
line-level grants management staff for simply managing a 
Congressionally-authorized and -appropriated program had a dramatic 
chilling effect. And the indiscriminate firing of a wide range of 
people on probationary status impacted moral and operational capacity 
even more. With statements from the administration of even more firings 
forthcoming, rumored to be targeting the Resilience side of the agency 
in particular, FEMA is truly at a tipping point. There have been 
suggestions that non-response personnel may not be critical. However, 
as is true across the emergency management profession, every FEMA 
employee has a disaster response role--whether someone's day job is 
managing terrorism grants, or flood insurance, or instructing classes 
in bioterrorism response, everyone in FEMA has a second job assignment 
in which they support a disaster response. They may work in the 
National Response Coordination Center, or deploy down range to support 
survivors, or work hand-in-hand with State and local officials.
                             grant funding
    Recent freezes and slowdowns in grant funding is also hurting 
American preparedness for terrorist attacks and disasters. FEMA acts as 
the U.S. Government's channel of fiscal support to State and local 
governments. FEMA's grants program directorate is how the Department of 
Homeland Security supports State and local terrorism preparedness, 
border security, and law enforcement efforts through the State Homeland 
Security Grant Program, Urban Area Security Initiative, and Law 
Enforcement Terrorism Prevention Program. For years, DHS's support to 
State homeland security border security efforts, through Operation 
Stonegarden, came through FEMA. More recently, as DHS's granting arm to 
State and local governments, FEMA was asked to operate a CBP program in 
support of State and local government migrant operations. Like the 
Urban Area Security grants, these funds are appropriated and managed 
separately from the Disaster Relief Fund and administered by different 
parts of the organization. Nevertheless, those differences were 
blurred, intentionally or unintentionally, resulting in doubt being 
sowed in the public eye, and the firing of long-serving, highly-
qualified, and critical personnel. Freezes and uncertainty in FEMA 
grant funding and impacts to its people harms our security.
    In the disaster risk reduction space, FEMA's mitigation grants such 
as the pre-disaster BRIC program and the post-disaster Hazard 
Mitigation Grant Program support communities' efforts to lessen their 
vulnerability to disasters, and have dramatic returns on investment, 
saving up to $13 on disaster costs for every dollar invested according 
to a 2020 National Institute of Building Sciences study.
    Another program administered by FEMA is the Emergency Management 
Performance Grant, a 50/50 match grant that's been described as the 
backbone of emergency management in America. EMPG is the program that 
supports the vast majority of State and local government emergency 
management programs from emergency operations centers to preparedness 
and response teams, and disaster training and exercises. Without it, 
few States and local governments could support the level of 
preparedness and response that America currently enjoys. And in the 
context of current policy debates of a smaller or no FEMA, it's hard to 
envision a greater share of the operational responsibility being 
undertaken by States in its absence.
                       climate change adaptation
    There are also a number of policy changes that have and will 
continue to have wide-reaching impacts. A core part of any emergency 
management system, indeed any public administrative or budgeting 
effort, is a understanding of the environment in which one is working 
and the base-level requirements. As simple as how many fire companies 
or ambulances do I need or how many police officers: what are the 
operational expectations of me, what hazards I am dealing with, and 
what do I need to respond. Understanding the population size, road 
networks, and hospital locations will drive the number of ambulance 
crews a city would support. Change to any of those variables will 
change how many ambulances. In emergency management, core to that 
effort is an understanding of the impacts of natural hazards on our 
communities. We often think of those events in terms of ``return 
periods'', often referred to as ``100-year'' events, or those storms 
that have a 1-percent chance of occurring in any year. Those 
calculations are based on the number of events of similar scale over 
the period of record, converted to a probability, and forecasted into 
the future. Our challenge is the base data of those calculations are 
changing. A changing climate is resulting in a growing number of more 
intense storms and greater rainfall. The result is, as we see over and 
over in the media, more storms of greater intensity than would be 
predicted by historic data. We see over and over headlines of record 
events, multiple 100-year storms a year, and even 500-year and 1,000-
year events. Consideration of these changing storm patterns is 
considered ``climate change'' and prohibited by policy and threat of 
termination. To maintain a policy that the emergency management 
community cannot plan for the world in which we live, where lives at 
are risk, is tantamount to instructing the Department of Defense to 
ignore strategic threats and intentionally underprepare.
    Mr. Chairman, in 2007, almost 20 years ago, I was here testifying 
before a different House committee on this same issue--was FEMA and DHS 
structured correctly and were the dramatic unilateral changes put in at 
that time responsible for poor emergency cooperation and coordination. 
Was there a more optimal way for States and the Federal Government to 
work together to protect our fellow citizens. Congress passed reforms, 
and the administration at that time listened. In the ensuing decades 
the Nation has in fact made dramatic improvements. We developed more 
cooperative national doctrine. Congresses' investments in capabilities 
through grants and legislative reform has resulted in a more prepared 
communities, mitigated disasters, and provide more effective response. 
It's saved lives. The administrative burden on State and local 
governments in public assistance is still challenging and slow to 
implement, and the individual assistance provided to people and 
families is complicated and often less than anticipated by the public. 
Reforms to those programs could be greatly beneficial. But there should 
be no question of the need for a single Federal coordinating agency, 
working with Governors and their single State-level coordinating 
agencies. Progress in emergency management is based on learning lessons 
and adapting and growing capabilities. We have both the opportunity and 
responsibility at this point in time to learn from recent disasters, 
and grow our ability to support each other, not regress to the 
uncoordinated and chaotic early 1970's and before.

    Mr. Strong. Thank you, Mr. Manning.
    Members will be recognized by order of seniority for their 
5 minutes of questioning. An additional round of questioning 
may be called after all Members have been recognized. I now 
recognize myself for 5 minutes of questioning.
    Mr. Smitherman, it is good to see you here representing the 
great State of Alabama. Since 1980, Alabama has faced 116 
weather-related disasters averaging 1 to 2 incidents per year. 
As a result, emergency management leaders throughout the State 
have forged strong partnerships with the Federal Government, 
particularly FEMA, to support community recovery and aid 
individuals in their greatest time of need.
    As you all know, the President recently announced FEMA's 
Review Council aimed at identifying areas of improvement within 
the agency and suggest changes to help State agency emergency 
management agencies respond to the aftermath of crisis.
    Mr. Smitherman, based on your experience, what do you think 
is the appropriate level of FEMA involvement that enables 
States to maintain the lead in disaster response?
    Mr. Smitherman. Thank you, Chairman Strong.
    Well, to start with, from my experience we have a lot of 
disasters and we've dealt--had FEMA come in and we established 
a joint force, joint field headquarters. We've done--or joint 
field office. We've done that many times and often that's 
really not necessary.
    For Alabama, we were one of the pilot States that piloted 
the State-managed disaster. We did that for Hurricane Nate in 
Alabama. So we've already managed a disaster at the State 
level. I think with proper resourcing and considerations we 
could do that for many of the disasters we experienced and save 
the limited FEMA resources for the most catastrophic of events. 
So like what you see in Katrina and Helene, when we've had our 
tornado outbreak 2011, we kind-of rank up there with that in 
terms of when we would ask FEMA to come in.
    We are not a State that relies on FEMA during the response 
phase. We bring them in, they're there. We have the Regional 
Incident Management Assistance teams in there with us. They're 
integrated into our EOC and we keep the FEMA Headquarters 
informed of what we're doing through that process. But as far 
as the need, the biggest value to us from FEMA is during the 
recovery phase. When they come in, we just have got to figure 
out a way to make that more responsive, less complex, less 
bureaucratic and actually get the funds down to the locals who 
are trying so desperately to get their communities put back in 
in order from--after that disaster or incident.
    Mr. Strong. You got it. I saw it first-hand as the chairman 
of the second-largest county in the State of Alabama, 350 homes 
totally destroyed. That tornado EF5/4 was on the ground for 126 
miles. Thousands of homes totally destroyed and we were without 
power for 10 to 12 days in some areas. But it was definitely 
something that we will never forget.
    How can coordination be improved between Federal and State 
components and disaster response and recovery?
    Mr. Smitherman. So I would say right now, so the 
communication, I think the communication flow works fairly 
well. It's just that there's so much that goes on day-to-day 
that has limited impact. I think, as one of my panel colleagues 
here stated, one of the critical components of that is that 
being in the preparation and the preparedness phase really, so 
what they can do to help identify and get consistency 
throughout the States.
    So, one area that I would say is in the EMAC system. The 
more we can empower and encourage the use of the EMAC system 
where the States can provide the mutual aid back and forth. As 
a particular State is able to use resources, pre-event 
resources, funding from FEMA to establish capability and 
capacity at that local level and at the State level, it gives 
us a venue to be able to share that so that not everybody has 
to have everything. We can empower what we already have and 
train and certify and equip it.
    Mr. Strong. Thank you. As I mentioned in my opening 
statement, FEMA has been tasked with managing an increasingly 
diverse mission set. Mr. Kaniewski, in your opinion, how has 
FEMA, the expanded missions affected its ability to fully 
respond to any singular disaster?
    Mr. Kaniewski. Well, I think certainly at various times 
we've seen FEMA stretched thin. That most often takes place 
when there's a major disaster, especially when there are 
multiple major disasters or like what we saw in 2017, when I 
was at FEMA, with hurricanes that--back-to-back, back-to-back 
hurricanes. When you have that, you simply can't recover. So 
this--and that applies both to FEMA, which manages a variety of 
these disasters, as well as the State and local governments 
that they themselves have been directly impacted.
    Mr. Strong. Thank you. My time has expired.
    I now recognize the Ranking Member, Mr. Kennedy, for his 5 
minutes of questioning.
    Mr. Kennedy. Thank you, Chairman.
    Last month, President Trump and Elon Musk fired at least 
200 FEMA employees. Now, under the Trump administration's 
deferred resignation program, over 800 FEMA employees, 
including highly-skilled emergency professionals, are leaving. 
Mr. Manning, how will these reckless staff firings impact 
FEMA's disaster response? What will happen to the communities 
that rely on FEMA support?
    Mr. Manning. Thank you, Member. Thank you for the question.
    It's really devastating to the FEMA work force to lose the 
broad swath of team members that they have. You know, the 
firings, the original indiscriminate firings, were challenging 
enough and that they were targeting probationary employees, but 
not just beginning-of-career employees, people throughout the 
organization, including senior leaders and people who have been 
there for a long time and recently promoted. The additional 
departure of a wide number of very senior, very influential and 
important career leaders within the organization is going to 
slow its decision making, inhibit its effectiveness, and will 
have real implications in preparedness and disaster response.
    Mr. Kennedy. Thank you. Earlier this year, the 
administration chose to illegally freeze funding previously 
appropriated by Congress, including FEMA funding. Despite court 
orders to release disaster relief funds, at least 140 FEMA 
grants remain frozen, impacting wildfire protection, flood 
mitigation, disaster preparedness efforts. A coalition of 
attorneys general has now filed a motion urging the court to 
enforce its ruling, arguing that FEMA's manual review process 
is simply a freeze by another name.
    Mr. Smitherman, are FEMA's preparedness grants and disaster 
relief funding important to your operation?
    Mr. Smitherman. Yes, Congressman, they are. To date, 
Alabama has only experienced small delays with receipt of those 
funding, with exception of, I think, a couple of grants that 
the Notice of Opportunity for Funding has been withdrawn. I 
think they're rewriting some of them and put it back out. But 
to date, we've not been impacted by that freeze. The money that 
we're able to draw down where we're obligated, we've been able 
to draw down. The process has become a little bit slower due to 
the review, but we have not missed any payments at the State 
level based on that.
    Mr. Kennedy. Would funding cuts to FEMA grants help or hurt 
your operation in your community?
    Mr. Smitherman. I think the answer is obvious anytime you 
cut funding to an item. But I think you really have to take a 
look holistically at the entire emergency management system. 
What is it that--the answer isn't always the Federal system. 
What are we doing at the State? What are we doing at the local? 
How are we managing the funds that we're given? Are we 
efficient at that? Are we effective at that? I think that would 
be the true measure, you know, and reward those who 
demonstrated financial solvency in the way that they handle the 
money.
    I think I would venture that Alabama, we have--Alabama has 
a committee. In 2019, our legislature established something not 
too dissimilar from the DOGE. It's called the Alabama 
Commission on Efficiency and Services. So we have to--and I get 
audited every year. We've passed our audits. We track our 
money. We know where it's at, we keep up with it and we spend 
it, I think, effectively and efficiently.
    Mr. Kennedy. But cutting funding would not be helpful.
    Mr. Smitherman. Excuse me, sir.
    Mr. Kennedy. Cutting funding would not be helpful.
    Mr. Smitherman. I think there's readiness that can be 
gained across the Nation as long as funding's available to 
attain that readiness. Now, we would discuss at what level we 
place that.
    Mr. Kennedy. Thank you. DHA's grant funding has been 
essential for first responders, providing local agencies with 
the resources needed to handle disasters and emergencies. We 
know that first responders nationwide have stressed how 
critical these needs are. Yet during his first term, President 
Trump pushed major cuts and forced a 10 percent reduction in 
fiscal year 2024.
    Mr. Manning, with climate change driving more frequent and 
severe disasters, how crucial is it to sustain or increase 
funding to ensure first responders can protect vulnerable 
communities?
    Mr. Manning. I believe the Homeland Security Grant Program, 
all of FEMA's Grant Preparedness Program, from the Emergency 
Management Performance Grant through the Resilience Grants that 
Dr. Kaniewski was mentioning earlier, have been absolutely 
critical in building capacity for the Nation. Any reduction in 
the resources available from the Federal Government to build 
the Nation's response capacity to build preparedness will have 
a detrimental impact on our ability to prepare and respond to 
disasters and acts of terrorism.
    Mr. Kennedy. If you cut that funding from the Federal level 
to FEMA that would otherwise go to the States, the States have 
to make up for that funding in the moment?
    Mr. Manning. Correct.
    Mr. Kennedy. I yield back. Thank you.
    Mr. Strong. Thank you. The gentleman's time has expired.
    I now recognize the gentleman from Oklahoma, Mr. Brecheen.
    Mr. Brecheen. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have expressed to 
the Chairman privately, I want to say publicly, how grateful I 
am for this hearing. I think this is something that is, to many 
of your comments, long overdue.
    I don't think most people realize that prior to 1979 there 
was no FEMA and it was established by an Executive Order by 
Jimmy Carter. So I think it would well serve us if we go back 
40 years. I would love to find the people that were in 
emergency management 40 and 50 years ago to get their 
experience about the ease of not having to adhere to the 
regulatory burden.
    Last year 50 percent of our supplemental funding, and I say 
``our,'' I need to rephrase that. The taxpayer-financed 
spending taken from the taxpayer, whether it's a direct tax or 
an indirect tax of inflation because of our deficit spending, 
last year, 50 percent of our supplemental spending, all 
borrowed money, was FEMA-directed. In 1980 it was 1 percent of 
the total supplemental funding that Congress allocated went to 
FEMA.
    So for some of you that are experts, if you look at the 
chart of the growth of FEMA it is unbelievable. It way 
surpasses, it passes inflation. We now have a FEMA that has 
become the Uber service for illegal immigrants in the last 2 
and 3 years. It is way outside of its bounds. FEMA is involved 
with 30 different Federal agencies now. So we have a major 
mission creep that has to be reined in, it has to be bridled, 
and somebody has to holler whoa. So I am grateful that this 
conversation is happening.
    I want to give you a personal example because I want to tie 
it into my questions. I have a ag and dirt-moving background. 
When I was serving on the State level, a friend of mine, Mark 
Allen, a State senator at the same time I was a State senator, 
after a 2012 tornado hit an area I represented, he was kind 
enough to say, hey, I will bring my dozer down. You get on the 
dozer, I will get on the skid steer, and we will do some clean-
up to help people that don't have the ability to finance it. So 
we did that.
    So I am moving this dozer. I am in a very rural setting, 
Tushka, Oklahoma, and I am moving material. I am separating the 
vegetative from the nonvegetative to make sure we abide by the 
FEMA regulations, many brush piles over. I watched because of 
Federal regulations, because I was in the dirt works business, 
I was in the dozer excavator trucking business. What could have 
been something that in a country setting could have been solved 
like that, that is done every day today where people in the 
country pull timber together, they light it on fire, we were 
not allowed to do that. We had to multiply the cost 4 times 
over. You had to bring in a half-round, which is a bathtub on 
the back of a semi, and you had to take an excavator track hoe, 
and you had to load that material that I had pushed up into a 
brush pile, dismantle it, load it in a half round, haul it off 
miles and miles, whether to be incinerated, major cost, or to 
be buried by another bulldozer.
    I can tell you because I turned in estimates to many 
customers that I served when I was out of the Government in the 
free market, you multiplied that cost at least by 4. It didn't 
make any sense. We have had stories come before this committee 
of not allowing snow to be moved, snow that melts, because of 
FEMA and environmental regulations in tandem.
    So I am setting you up because I would love to hear, Mr. 
Smitherman, from your experience, the waste that you have seen 
because of Federal--let me ask you a simple question. I love 
what you said, we piloted a State response. How freeing was 
that for you all to be able to make your own decisions and make 
a decision that you knew would save taxpayer money and 
immediately respond in Alabama?
    Mr. Smitherman. Of course, I'm a fan of our performance 
during that. I think if you take a look at FEMA's evaluation of 
our performance, you'll see an alignment with that. So, you 
know, we have had one small disaster where the cost of FEMA 
coming in and establishing the joint field office almost 
exceeded the cost of the disaster itself. So I think that would 
be my one example.
    Now, that's not to say that--or an attack on FEMA being 
wasteful. It's the process they use. I think if you look at a 
State-managed disaster, for those that we can handle, just help 
us handle it and let us go. So I think that's one example of 
efficiency.
    Sir, if I may, let me refine my answer on funding that the 
Ranking Member asked. Of course, if there's funding cuts, but 
really what I want to talk about is where you cut and where you 
put the resources. Because if you're talking about the first 
responders that are responding during the disaster, by no means 
am I talking cutting them. I'm talking reallocating funding 
that you save elsewhere to put at the capacity level so that 
you have those capabilities that are so needed across the 
States and the region and the United States. That's really what 
I meant with where to allocate the funding.
    Mr. Brecheen. Mr. Chairman, if I may, since you answered 
another Member's question, if I could have a little leniency on 
my time. Yes. Glad you were able to respond to him. Years ago, 
U.S. senator in Oklahoma, Tom Coburn asked for our State 
director of transportation to build a mile of road under 
Federal regulations and use an apple-to-apple comparison and 
build a mile of--or what turned into be a mile-and-a-half under 
State regulations. Apples-to-apples comparison. This is about 
10, 15 years ago. He could build a mile of road at the same 
cost he could build a mile-and-a-half under State authority. 
This was quality work.
    The dollars will go farther, you will have more decision 
making and control and in a rate of inflation that deals with 
everything that FEMA is involved with, especially when you are 
talking about the large equipment that comes in under disaster 
recovery. This is a solution that we have to make happen given 
where we are at financially as a country.
    I yield.
    Mr. Strong. Thank you. The gentleman's time has expired.
    The gentlewoman from Texas, Ms. Johnson, is recognized.
    Ms. Johnson. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    In February 2021, Texas was hit with our biggest winter 
storm to date, killing over 240 Texans. Texans were left 
without power, busted pipes, drinkable water, and freezing to 
death, not to mention the millions of property damage all 
across our State. Throughout this disaster, support from FEMA 
was critical in saving the lives across North Texas 
communities. Simply put, without FEMA, this disaster would have 
been 10 times worse. Look, not all of us could flee to Cancun. 
But abandoning FEMA now would mean abandoning Texas and would 
serve to set up our State for even worse disasters in the 
future.
    FEMA's rapid response provided Texans with 70,000 gallons 
of gasoline, 5 million liters of water, 60 generators, and 
helped over 650 households retain power. These resources proved 
to be invaluable and likely saved thousands of Texans from the 
worst-case scenario.
    We all remember back in 2017, when Texas was destroyed by 
Hurricane Harvey. Thirty-five hundred FEMA employees, along 
with 31,000 members of the National Guard were deployed to 
provide assistance to our Gulf Coast. Almost 800,000 homes had 
at least 18 inches of water inside and 24 hospitals were 
evacuated. Within 30 days of Hurricane Harvey, over 270,000 
households were provided with $1.5 billion from FEMA that 
covered temporary housing, advancement pay for flood insurance, 
and repairs to keep their homes safe. All of this was approved 
by President Trump.
    We know that climate change is an escalating threat to our 
homeland security and we would be lying to ourselves if we said 
a catastrophe like this is not on the rise and will not ever 
happen again. Last May, tornadoes tore through North Texas, 
killing 7 people, including 3 children, and injuring over 100 
of my neighboring residents. FEMA stepped in and provided 
displacement and home repair assistance at a very critical 
time.
    President Trump's decision to fire over 200 FEMA employees 
last month was not only irresponsible, but will overwhelm 
current employees who are already burned out and, most 
importantly, it will endanger the lives of Texans and many 
people throughout this entire country. I am all for cutting 
waste, fraud, and abuse, but we can't lose sight of the 
humanity the time of crisis needs that FEMA provides. Elon Musk 
may not think that saving lives is an efficient use of Federal 
dollars, but I know that it is and I know that my neighbors 
would agree with me.
    At this very moment, the people of North Carolina, who are 
just now starting to get on their feet from the catastrophic 
floods last year, are currently on fire. Parts of California 
were just burned to the ground, and my colleagues on the other 
side of the aisle have the audacity to support the President's 
unconstitutional behavior and allow him to dismantle this 
important Federal agency. Just last night the Dallas area was 
hit by yet another round of tornadoes and the damage is now 
still being calculated.
    FEMA is not the end-all and be-all. But with an unreliable 
grid in Texas and natural disasters becoming more frequent, 
Americans cannot afford to lose the life-saving services that 
FEMA provides.
    Mr. Manning, how can Federal, State, and local governments 
effectively prepare for and respond to the growing climate 
threats without Federal support? What consequences will these 
cuts have on underserved communities?
    Mr. Manning. Thank you for that question. The inability or 
at least the change in policy to disincentivize or even 
prohibit the consideration of climate change will have a 
incredibly detrimental effect on preparedness across the 
country. It is changing the complexion of hazards in America. 
There are more severe storms, more severe impacts than we have 
seen historically. If we only plan forward based on what we've 
experienced historically, we will be drastically underpreparing 
going forward and people will be in danger and may lose lives.
    Texas has a very strong emergency management system, but 
even Texas needs the assistance of FEMA over and over again. A 
strong collaborative partnership between FEMA and the States is 
how we move America forward and how we assure that our most 
vulnerable communities have the protection that they need.
    Ms. Johnson. Thank you so much for your answer. I believe I 
am out of time and I yield back.
    Mr. Strong. The gentlewoman's time has expired.
    I now recognize the gentleman from Colorado, Mr. Evans, for 
5 minutes of questioning.
    Mr. Evans. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, thank you, Ranking 
Members, and thank you, of course, to the witnesses for taking 
the time to come today.
    So I spent 2 decades in between military and law 
enforcement. On the military side as a Blackhawk helicopter 
pilot in the National Guard in Colorado. So I have commanded 
all National Guard aviation assets in the State of Colorado 
responding to wildfires. As a police officer for a decade I was 
pretty integrally involved in a lot of these disaster response 
and emergency management things. So have a couple of questions 
here.
    Mr., and I apologize if I butcher it, Kaniewski, did I get 
it? Mr. Kaniewski, just looking through your bio here, it looks 
like you have some experience in the insurance space. So one of 
the things that I hear specifically with regard to wildfire 
from a lot of my electric utility providers is the exploding 
insurance rates that they have to pay to be able to provide 
electrical services through some of these high wildfire risk 
areas. So looking through your comments here, you are talking 
about effectively how an ounce of prevention is worth a pound 
of cure.
    Can you expound a little bit on how being able to do some 
of these preemptive mitigation strategies might potentially be 
able to help alleviate some of the insurance burden that my 
electric utilities are facing as they try to provide 
electricity through some of these high wildfire risk areas?
    Mr. Kaniewski. Yes, wildfire is a risk that requires a 
partnership. It requires partnerships, not just those 
traditional partners that we think of, maybe those of us in 
emergency management or those of us that were first responders, 
but it requires partnerships from critical infrastructure, as 
you highlighted. And as critical infrastructure owners and 
operators, you've mentioned the power industry, they need to 
understand what their risks are and what they can do about it. 
Unfortunately, all of that has now come to the fore because 
when someone loses power, questions are raised, fingers are 
pointed, blame is placed, and the reality is it's no one 
stakeholder. It's not just that critical infrastructure owner 
and operator. There's only so much they can do themselves.
    By working with the local community, as well as working 
with the State and local governments and looking at regulations 
that may inhibit or enhance the resilience of critical 
infrastructure, we can hopefully make that infrastructure, No. 
1, more resilient and, No. 2, reduce the risks that everyone 
faces. So that wildfire risk that might threaten a power line 
also threatens homes. So taking a community-based approach and 
understanding that by reducing that wildfire risk, it actually 
benefits everyone, whether it be their home, which is the most 
obvious I think all of us think about when we think of wildfire 
risk, but we also think about the loss of power.
    Now, I would say our company works very closely and our 
clients include major energy companies, and this certainly is 
top of mind with them and making sure that there are insurance 
products available to protect them. But I would say it requires 
a partnership on the regulatory side with those State 
regulators to make that feasible.
    Mr. Evans. So what are some of those specific partnerships 
that currently exist? Then are there any regulatory barriers 
that we can look to reduce to be able to build that Federal, 
State, to local partnership ultimately with the goal of being 
able to reduce some of the insurance burden that a lot of my 
rural electric co-ops are facing by being able to lower the 
risk, specifically in my area for wildfires? What are some of 
those partnerships? What are the barriers that we need to work 
on to make those more accessible?
    Mr. Kaniewski. So, first, a general statement, insurance is 
just a reflection of the risk. So when we talk about insurance 
premiums going up, it's because the risk has gone up. So 
anything we can do to reduce that risk, again, it can be as 
simple as removing combustible materials around, whether it be 
power lines or homes. That's wildfire risk. But the interesting 
thing about wildfire risk, it's not just what you do, it's what 
your neighbors do or what that community does.
    So building codes play a preeminent role here. So making 
sure that the building code, it's a wildland urban interface 
fire code, would be really--a building code would be very 
important to protect that community, whether it be, again, 
power lines or homes. At the State level, because insurance is 
regulated at the State level, there's really no one answer I 
can give you. It depends on the State. So it's really a 
partnership, whether it be emergency managers working with 
insurance commissioners or with energy regulators in that 
State, I think would be a very advisable way to go to build 
those partnerships. So that we all see the term I used in my 
opening statement that we're all cobeneficiaries of that 
investment. We all benefit from that investment in resilience.
    Mr. Evans. Thank you. Yield back.
    Mr. Strong. The gentleman from Colorado's time has expired.
    I now recognize the gentleman from Puerto Rico, Mr. 
Hernandez, for 5 minutes of questioning.
    Mr. Hernandez. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    I bet if I ask my constituents to name one Federal agency, 
they will all say FEMA. FEMA has had a huge role in Puerto Rico 
following Hurricane Maria. I will be the first to acknowledge 
FEMA has serious problems with efficiency and bureaucracy. You 
know, out of tens of billions of dollars that were assigned to 
Puerto Rico by FEMA, we have only seen a fraction. Our electric 
grid is probably worse off today than it was the day before 
Hurricane Maria struck. So there is a lot of work to be done 
with regards to FEMA.
    So my first question. Mr. Manning, what concrete 
legislative changes could we enact to make sure that Federal 
funds that are obligated under FEMA are dispersed more 
efficiently?
    Mr. Manning. Thank you, Congressman. You know, if we talk 
about the pre-disaster side of the mitigation preparedness 
grants and the post-disaster side, there are slightly different 
answers. But it comes down to FEMA administers a broad swath of 
legal requirements both out of the Stafford Act, but also a 
myriad of grants laws and fiscal law. So there are going to be 
reforms that need to be looked at in public assistance to 
streamline the provision of resources and the approval of 
projects, which is where a lot of delays I believe in Puerto 
Rico are experiencing. It's the negotiation between the 
Commonwealth, Puerto Rico, and FEMA in the context of all of 
these fiscal and Stafford Act laws.
    In the mitigation side and some of the pre-disaster and 
post-disaster mitigation, a lot of those are coming through. 
There are some delays now in the current administration's 
review process that could be fast-tracked as well if they were 
to rescind some of those. But there is, I think, that 
collaboration and that view through the Stafford Act reforms 
that we're discussing today are the most important.
    Mr. Hernandez. Great, thank you.
    My second question is, and this is for Mr. Smitherman, 
let's assume that Congress moves toward dismantling or 
decentralizing FEMA to promote more interstate cooperation. 
Should it consider some sort of special treatment for non-
Continental United States jurisdictions? Because I am concerned 
Alabama can get help from Florida, from Tennessee, from 
Georgia. Puerto Rico, Hawaii, Alaska, Guam, the USVI, the 
Mariana Islands, American Samoa, I hope I left nobody out, can 
have a harder time. We got a lot of help from the States. I 
don't want to undermine that, but it obviously it takes a lot 
longer to send a few trucks to an island in the Caribbean or 
the Pacific than it does from one State to a neighboring State.
    So how could we reconcile that with these views of 
decentralizing FEMA and giving more support to the States to 
help each other?
    Mr. Smitherman. Thank you for that question. So 
unabashedly, yes, States that are in the Continental United 
States obviously have an advantage in that regard. I think you 
have to look at it just totally from a different approach with 
regards to an island support. Yes, you have to find those 
different Federal agencies, whether it be a DOD or maybe 
incorporate some additional way to pre-stage some of the State-
to-State assistance.
    I particularly had a situation this past week or I think 2 
weeks ago, I was out at the U.S. Northern Command working on a 
course and we had a member from Guam there and they talked 
about the challenges they're having with both disaster--you 
know, taking care of the planning for disaster support and any 
nation-state threats. I think they've seen some specific 
nation-state threats here recently and it's a challenge for 
them. They talk specifically to that, how do we get this 
assistance? They are looking at more of a DOD approach.
    So maybe, I think, when we talk about looking, looking 
holistically at redesign, you know, FEMA is just one part of a 
larger emergency management system. Any time you make an 
adjustment on one area of a system, you've got to account for 
other areas in that system to make up that shortfall or that 
change. So if you move away something from FEMA, somebody 
somewhere has got to take that up.
    So I think regardless of what the broad outcomes of the 
FEMA Review Council that the President's putting together, 
whatever their recommendations are, I think you have to follow 
on with that--is what functions have moved, before you 
establish what form that's going to look like. So where are you 
moving that requirement? Who's going to pick up the response 
for island response and someone's got to pick that up and who 
is that going to be? Unless if a move that function, let's 
resource that function.
    Mr. Hernandez. I am sorry to interrupt because I have very 
few seconds left. I am not fully convinced of DOD taking over 
FEMA, but I look forward to working, you know, to find 
bipartisan solutions should that be the approach that the 
majority in my--in what I think would be unfortunate, but 
should that be the approach to find some bipartisan solution to 
address the needs of the non-Continental U.S. jurisdictions.
    Thank you. I yield back.
    Mr. Strong. Thank you. The gentleman's time has expired.
    Does the Ranking Member seek recognition?
    Mr. Kennedy. Yes, Chairman, thank you very much. I would 
just like to ask for unanimous consent to offer these 3 
documents into the record: Bloomberg article on disaster relief 
funds asking the attorneys general, asking that the wildfire 
aid be released; senior leaders leaving an already depleted 
disaster agency; the New York Times article regarding FEMA and 
the rank-and-file workers that have already left before the 
cuts; and a GAO report on FEMA staffing challenges from 2023.
    Mr. Strong. Without objection.
    [The information follows:]
       Article From Bloomberg Submitted by Ranking Member Kennedy
    trump must release wildfire aid, disaster relief funds, ags say
By Maia Spoto/February 28, 2025 8:39PM ET
    States have been unable to access millions of dollars in disaster 
relief funding since Feb. 7, a coalition of attorneys general said in a 
Friday court filing, asking a judge to force Trump to unlock the funds.
    The freeze on Federal Emergency Management Agency spending is 
impacting wildfire prevention, flood mitigation, disaster preparedness, 
and other programs that support ``essential health, safety, and 
welfare,'' the coalition wrote in a motion.
    They asked, for a second time, that Judge John J. McConnell Jr. of 
the US District Court for the District of Rhode Island enforce his Jan. 
31 restraining order temporarily blocking Trump's funding freeze.
    At least 140 FEMA grants are still frozen, the coalition said, 
despite McConnell ordering the administration Feb. 10 to immediately 
release all funds after finding that the Trump administration violated 
his Jan. 31 order.
    FEMA has said it is manually reviewing the grants, which the motion 
says is ``simply a freeze by another name.''
    The States aren't moving to hold Trump in contempt, according to a 
footnote, though attorneys general said Feb. 11 it was a possibility if 
he continues to defy court orders.
    The case is State of New York v. Trump, D.R.I., No. 1:25-cv-00039, 
2/28/25.
    To contact the reporter on this story: Maia Spoto in Los Angeles at 
[email protected].
    To contact the editor responsible for this story: Stephanie Gleason 
at [email protected].
                                 ______
                                 
  Article From the New York Times Submitted by Ranking Member Kennedy
     senior leaders are leaving an already-depleted disaster agency
By Christopher Flavelle
Feb. 27, 2025
            Christopher Flavelle has covered FEMA for a decade.
    More than a dozen of the senior leaders at the Federal Emergency 
Management Agency, including those with the most experience in leading 
disaster recovery, have either been fired or have resigned, thinning 
its management ranks weeks ahead of hurricane season.
    The departures in the senior ranks are in addition to job cuts and 
resignations of about 1,000 of the agency's roughly 17,000 employees.
    Those changes represent a significant loss at an agency that was 
already struggling with personnel shortages as it tried to help 
communities recover from catastrophic storms and wildfires in western 
North Carolina and Los Angeles, among other missions.
    Soon after his return to the White House, President Trump mused 
about formally disbanding FEMA. The departures suggest that the agency 
is already being thinned out.
    ``The massive reduction in staff at FEMA will have dangerous ripple 
effects for communities across the country,'' said Shana Udvardy, 
senior climate resilience policy analyst at the Union of Concerned 
Scientists. ``At a time when FEMA staff is low capacity, this is going 
in the wrong direction.''
    Under the Trump administration's so-called deferred resignation 
offer, more than 800 FEMA employees are leaving, according to several 
people familiar with the situation who spoke on the condition of 
anonymity because they were not authorized to discuss it publicly. They 
include the agency's top lawyer and his deputy, as well as senior 
officials in charge of human resources, information technology and 
reducing the risk communities face from future disasters.
    The agency's leadership plans to hold a ``clap out'' on Friday for 
the employees who are leaving, according to a document viewed by The 
New York Times. FEMA staff members are encouraged to gather in the 
lobby of the Washington headquarters on Friday afternoon and applaud as 
their colleagues leave the building.
    The administration fired FEMA's chief financial officer, as well as 
a senior official responsible for the Federal flood insurance program, 
along with more than 200 probationary employees.
    In addition, the administration has indicated it will eliminate the 
jobs of an unknown number of other FEMA employees who work on issues 
related to climate change or equity.
    FEMA's press office referred a request for comment to the 
Department of Homeland Security, which includes FEMA. A spokeswoman for 
the department declined to comment.
    Before Mr. Trump's return, the agency was already struggling to 
fill its positions. In 2023, the nonpartisan U.S. Government 
Accountability Office reported that FEMA had managed to staff two-
thirds of its allotted positions. That gap partly reflected the toll 
posed by FEMA's need to respond to a growing number of disasters made 
worse by climate change.
    In his first week back in office, Mr. Trump said states should 
manage disasters on their own and established a council led by the 
secretaries of defense and homeland security to consider FEMA's future. 
``I think we're going to recommend that FEMA go away,'' Mr. Trump said. 
It is unclear whether that council has met.
    Among the top managers who are departing is Adrian Sevier, who has 
worked as FEMA's chief counsel for 10 years, and as deputy chief 
counsel for 8 years before that. On Tuesday, Mr. Sevier wrote on 
LinkedIn that he was leaving and thanked the people who worked for him. 
``You have all supported and defended the constitution,'' he wrote, 
``and well and faithfully discharged your duties.''
    Mr. Sevier's deputy, Michael Cameron, is also leaving, according to 
three people familiar with his decision, who spoke on the condition of 
anonymity out of a fear of retaliation.
    Neither Mr. Sevier nor Mr. Cameron could be reached for comment.
    The role of top lawyer at FEMA carries particular importance at an 
agency where a fast response is required and often hundreds of millions 
of dollars in emergency assistance are involved. FEMA's top lawyers 
guide the staff in quickly and appropriately spending money in ways 
that avoid fraud, waste and abuse.
    In addition to those executives, FEMA is losing at least seven 
staff members responsible for managing disaster recovery operations, 
according to people inside the agency. Those workers, called ``Federal 
coordinating officers,'' are both extremely valuable and in short 
supply: As of Thursday morning, 54 of those officers were already 
deployed, leaving just three available to be sent to manage any new 
disasters that might happen.
    Other departing senior managers include FEMA's acting chief human 
capital officer, the deputy chief human capital officer for operations, 
and the deputy assistant administrator for mitigation, who oversees 
programs designed to reduce communities' exposure to disasters. Two of 
FEMA's deputy chief information officers, who are responsible for 
information technology--including computers, software and 
cybersecurity--are also departing.
    Two weeks ago, the agency fired its chief financial officer, Mary 
Comans, after Elon Musk claimed misleadingly that FEMA had spent money 
to shelter migrants in ``high end hotels'' in New York City. Ms. Comans 
had overseen payments allocated by Congress for emergency housing, 
which was part of her job.
    A week later, Christopher Page, who worked on the National Flood 
Insurance Program, was fired from his job. Mr. Page wrote on LinkedIn 
that he had worked at FEMA since 2010 but had recently been promoted; 
his new role meant he was technically on probation and therefore easier 
to terminate.
    The flood insurance program insures millions of homes around the 
United States that otherwise cannot get coverage. That insurance is 
what allows the real estate market to function in those areas: Without 
insurance, banks won't issue mortgages; without a mortgage, most people 
can't afford to buy a house. Mr. Page's job was to look for ways to 
improve the program.
    ``I wanted to be there for disaster survivors on their worst day,'' 
Mr. Page wrote.
                                 ______
                                 
             GAO Report Submitted by Ranking Member Kennedy
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

    Mr. Strong. The gentleman from Guam, Mr. Moylan, is 
recognized for 5 minutes of questioning.
    Mr. Moylan. Thank you, Chairman Strong, and Ranking Member 
Kennedy for allowing me to waive and speak on the importance of 
FEMA to my district.
    As Guam continues to recover from typhoons and prepares for 
other disasters, FEMA's assistance is still needed. To 
demonstrate the need of FEMA and its deficiencies in the 
territories, I will use FEMA's 4 phases of emergency 
management.
    The first 2 are mitigation and preparedness. No one can 
predict how future disasters will affect us. But FEMA has 
provided the tools to reduce the damage from the next--for the 
next emergency. Utilizing bottom-up approaches, FEMA has 
ensured that readiness begins at the local level. FEMA provides 
assessments, early warning, and awareness methods that are 
vital to disaster preparedness. While Guam and many other U.S. 
locations face difficulties in hardening infrastructure and 
telecommunications, Guam's partnership with FEMA has been 
extremely fruitful.
    The other 2 phrases in FEMA's preparedness management here 
is response and recovery. For all the success we can achieve 
before disasters come, FEMA's true value is seen during 
emergencies and the recovery efforts after. Stretched thin, 
FEMA is often limited to how they can respond to disasters. It 
has been 2 years since Typhoon Mawar destroyed our island and 
we are still recovering. Funding opportunities, like Emergency 
Operations Center Grants and recovery funds ensure that Guam 
can respond efficiently in disasters.
    Now, despite these successes, we have a long way to go for 
streamlined emergency responses and recovery. Guam's disaster-
prone location is burdened with outdated grant criteria, 
limited funds, and other administrative challenges. FEMA's 
Region 9 is also associated with multiple pressing emergencies: 
typhoons, wildfires, and flash floods. While successes in the 
most recent disaster relief fund represent a meaningful step 
toward full recovery, we can't rely on legislative wins for the 
next emergency.
    The battle against disasters is a never-ending effort. 
Let's not forget that the work we do today, whether in 
Government, law enforcement, or in communities, will protect 
our country from the unpredictable nature of emergencies. So 
together we can ensure that the future of FEMA remains an 
organization committed to mitigating, preparing, and responding 
and recovering from disasters.
    Mr. Manning, as I already mentioned, FEMA's bottom-up 
approach is crucial to an integrated and effective disaster 
response. Yet, the spirit of integration has only traveled so 
far in the previous administration. While my colleague from 
Puerto Rico could elaborate more on the controversies 
associated with this, could you speak more about how FEMA has 
looked at the Jones Act waivers when preparing for future 
disasters?
    Mr. Manning. Thank you for that question. That is a 
perennially challenging issue. I can't, of course, speak to the 
previous administration of FEMA's operations in either Puerto 
Rico or Guam, not having been at FEMA at the time, but I know 
that that is--provision of assistance, the logistics delivery 
of assistance to our island territories and Hawaii are always 
challenging. I know the logistics organization within FEMA pays 
special attention to that, in particular the Pacific Area 
Office, FEMA's Pacific Area Office in Hawaii. I know that 
there's plans in between Guam, American Samoa, and Hawaii as 
well.
    Going forward, as we discuss the revisions to the public 
assistance process, that would absolutely, I believe--
considerations of Jones Act challenges should absolutely be 
considered in any of those planning going forward.
    Mr. Moylan. Very good. Thank you.
    Ms. Speranza, your organization has regional councils in 
every major region across the world. For Guam specifically, we 
often suffer from the same disasters that affect Pacific Island 
countries or Asia. In terms of coordinated emergency 
management, how can the United States promote disaster response 
interoperability across every region?
    Ms. Speranza. That's a really great question. So I think 
one of the ways that we can better coordinate across all 
regions is through the standardization that I talked about in 
my testimony. Right. That's through the preparedness programs. 
That's making sure that every emergency manager at the State, 
local, Tribal, territorial, and even private-sector levels have 
the training available to them to make sure that they can 
respond through mutual aid should the need arise.
    That's why those programs are really important, is because 
it ensures that every emergency manager or public safety 
official is trained to the same criteria. So if something 
happens in your region and perhaps all of your resources have 
exceeded capacity, you can reach back to another region for 
help. In theory, the people that come to your region are also 
qualified in that.
    So I think that that is the primary priority for reform, is 
to ensure that our preparedness programs can make sure that 
mutual aid is provided from region to region, including in the 
Islands.
    Mr. Moylan. Thank you very much. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. Strong. The gentleman from Guam's time has expired.
    I now recognize the gentleman from Florida, Mr. Moskowitz, 
for 5 minutes of questioning.
    Mr. Moskowitz. Mr. Chairman, thank you. Thank you for 
allowing me to waive on today.
    In a previous life, I was the State emergency management 
director of Florida for Governor Ron DeSantis as the State 
coordinating officer where an emergency is declared in Florida, 
almost all of the Governor's powers are also invested in the 
emergency management director. All secretaries of all 
departments report to the State coordinating officer. So, yes, 
it was a little awkward to have all these other Republican 
appointees having to listen to a Democrat. But I got that job 
because I was qualified.
    I got to work with both Brock Long, who was the director, 
the administrator of FEMA during the Trump administration, and 
Pete Gaynor when I was there. I was there for the Category 5 
Hurricane Michael recovery. I ran the Hurricane Irma public 
assistance reimbursement process, the citrus block grant 
program, the timber block grant program, and Florida's COVID 
response.
    Let me first say this. Any day that we are talking about 
emergency management is a good day because we are often 
overlooked and we are often under-invested in. No one cares 
about us during blue skies, but when gray skies hit, that is 
when we get all of the attention.
    During Hurricane Michael in the Panhandle, I was deeply 
concerned about fiscally-constrained areas. This is a 
Republican area. Some of these towns had only $5 million city 
budgets. Their city budgets were $5 million a year, but they 
had $35 million of cost. Those cities would have failed. Those 
residents would have had to leave. Those towns would have not 
have been rebuilt.
    Actually, who helped save them? It was President Trump. 
President Trump helped save them because what he did was, is he 
expedited the reimbursement to those towns and he increased the 
reimbursement rate to 90 percent. Without that, these towns of 
the panhandle would have absolutely never recovered.
    Another piece of disaster management that a lot of people 
don't know is a lot of it is done by the private sector. It is 
not done by government. Right? The private sector does all 
sorts of functions: technical assistance, monitoring, 
logistics, debris removal, all done by the private sector.
    Mr. Smitherman, and thank you for your service because I 
know what that job is like, you rely heavily on the private 
sector through vendors to go and complete a mission. It is not 
done by Government.
    Mr. Kaniewski, you talked about resiliency and mitigation. 
You are 100 percent right. It would be great if we could be 
more proactive with the disasters. But the problem is, is that 
a lot of people don't want to change the building code. A lot 
of people don't want to do these things. Why? Because it makes 
the cost of houses more expensive. After Hurricane Andrew, when 
we redid the building code in Florida, which by the way, has 
saved us a lot of money in disasters, many people didn't want 
to do that because they said the cost of homes in Florida would 
go up.
    So, sure, can we make homes more resilient to fire in 
California? We can. It is going to slow the rebuilding process. 
It is going to slow recovery. Can we elevate homes in Florida? 
We can. It is going to slow down the rebuilding process. So 
there is a give and take with all of that stuff.
    I want to talk about FEMA reimbursement. It is super 
critical. Right? Mr. Smitherman, you would know this, Alabama 
could not have afforded the Tuscaloosa tornado on their own if 
there was no Federal reimbursement. It is a $2\1/2\ billion 
disaster. Oklahoma gets 68 tornadoes a year. OK. Oklahoma and 
Alabama have, what, a $12-, $15 billion budget? Right? These 
aren't budgets like Texas or California or Florida or New York. 
A lot of these red States cannot afford a major disaster if 
there was no Federal reimbursement. So the idea of FEMA going 
away would dramatically hurt red States.
    Could you survive a Category 4 coming in from the Gulf of 
America without Federal reimbursement? I know the answer. Your 
State would have to raise taxes, it would have to raid the 
education fund, it would have to raid DOT. If it didn't do 
that, it would have to raid taxes. People would say to me, 
well, Jared, how do the power companies do it? How can the 
power companies come in? How can they amass all these huge 
forces? It's very simple. They pass that cost off to the 
consumer.
    So when my power companies come in and spend $300- or $400 
million getting the power up, and, thank God, they do because 
getting power up is the most important thing after life, 
health, and safety in a disaster, how do they do it so quickly? 
Cost doesn't matter because they push that cost off to the 
consumer in a surcharge.
    So listen, what do we do? How do we fix FEMA? First of all, 
I support the President's EO. I think the President coming out 
and forming a commission is the right idea. Let's put experts 
on there that know what they are doing.
    I have been proposing for years now to take FEMA out of 
Homeland. That is my bill and I am doing that with Byron 
Donalds of Florida in the House and we got Thom Tillis coming 
out in the Senate. We will be announcing that bill again, but I 
have been doing it for 2 years. Why? Homeland is a great 
agency. It is, but it has become too big and FEMA cannot 
function there. For an agency that needs to be fast, it can't 
function in an agency of 22 others.
    Talking about them getting involved in immigration, they 
shouldn't be involved in immigration. But why are they? Because 
Homeland is using FEMA to run every grant of every agency, all 
within Homeland. Half of FEMA's personnel now is running 
grants. They are not doing response. So we got to get them out 
of that.
    The second thing we can do is we can block grant money 
down. We absolutely can do that. I did citrus block grant--Mr. 
Chairman, would you allow me just a couple of----
    Mr. Strong. Yield 45 seconds----
    Mr. Moskowitz. Thank you, sir.
    Mr. Strong [continuing]. Because balance the clock. Thank 
you.
    Mr. Moskowitz. Thank you, sir. I did citrus block grants, I 
did timber block grants. We can block grant down the public 
assistance money. We can get FEMA out of the housing business. 
They are terrible at housing. We can block grant that down to 
local governments and to States to do that stuff. That would 
shrink the size of FEMA. It would. It would also allow FEMA to 
refocus on response. When we say response, FEMA doesn't have 
much. They coordinate other Federal resources. In fact, that is 
what Mr. Smitherman does. He coordinates the other, the other 
State resources that he has.
    So EMAC is great, but we got to make sure they get the 
reimbursement. Police, fire, the National Guard, they are all 
great resources. They can't--they will not come and help from 
other States on EMAC if they don't get their reimbursement.
    So I implore my colleagues, let's not politicize disaster 
aid. That will not help blue States or red States. You are 
going to be punishing your constituents, Americans, patriots, 
soldiers, first responders, police departments, fire 
departments. But we can fix FEMA, we can reform it, we can save 
it.
    I yield back, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. Brecheen. Mr. Chairman, can I ask unanimous consent to 
enter Republican applause for some of his comments to my 
Democrat colleague----
    Mr. Moskowitz. You got it.
    Mr. Brecheen [continuing]. Into the record?
    Mr. Strong. The gentleman from Florida's time has expired.
    Mr. Brecheen. Some of his comments.
    Mr. Strong. I thank the witnesses for their valuable 
testimony and the Members for their questions. The Members of 
the subcommittee may have some additional questions for the 
witnesses, and we could ask the witnesses to respond to these 
in writing. Pursuant to the committee rule VII(E), the hearing 
record will be held open for 10 days.
    Without objection, this subcommittee stands adjourned.
    [Whereupon, at 11:43 a.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.]

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