[House Hearing, 119 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]


                     PUBLIC FUNDS, PRIVATE AGENDAS:
                             NGOs GONE WILD

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

                     SUBCOMMITTEE ON DELIVERING ON
                         GOVERNMENT EFFICIENCY

                                 OF THE

                         COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT
                         AND GOVERNMENT REFORM

                     U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS

                             FIRST SESSION

                               __________

                              JUNE 4, 2025

                               __________

                           Serial No. 119-30

                               __________

Printed for the use of the Committee on Oversight and Government Reform

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                       Available on: govinfo.gov
                         oversight.house.gov or
                             docs.house.gov
                             
                                __________

                   U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE                    
60-681 PDF                  WASHINGTON : 2025                  
          
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              COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM

                    JAMES COMER, Kentucky, Chairman

Jim Jordan, Ohio                     Vacant, Ranking Minority Member
Mike Turner, Ohio                    Eleanor Holmes Norton, District of 
Paul Gosar, Arizona                      Columbia
Virginia Foxx, North Carolina        Stephen Lynch, Massachusetts
Glenn Grothman, Wisconsin            Raja Krishnamoorthi, Illinois
Michael Cloud, Texas                 Ro Khanna, California
Gary Palmer, Alabama                 Kweisi Mfume, Maryland
Clay Higgins, Louisiana              Shontel Brown, Ohio
Pete Sessions, Texas                 Melanie Stansbury, New Mexico
Andy Biggs, Arizona                  Robert Garcia, California
Nancy Mace, South Carolina           Maxwell Frost, Florida
Pat Fallon, Texas                    Summer Lee, Pennsylvania
Byron Donalds, Florida               Greg Casar, Texas
Scott Perry, Pennsylvania            Jasmine Crockett, Texas
William Timmons, South Carolina      Emily Randall, Washington
Tim Burchett, Tennessee              Suhas Subramanyam, Virginia
Marjorie Taylor Greene, Georgia      Yassamin Ansari, Arizona
Lauren Boebert, Colorado             Wesley Bell, Missouri
Anna Paulina Luna, Florida           Lateefah Simon, California
Nick Langworthy, New York            Dave Min, California
Eric Burlison, Missouri              Ayanna Pressley, Massachusetts
Eli Crane, Arizona                   Rashida Tlaib, Michigan
Brian Jack, Georgia
John McGuire, Virginia
Brandon Gill, Texas

                                 ------                                
                       Mark Marin, Staff Director
                   James Rust, Deputy Staff Director
                     Mitch Benzine, General Counsel
                      Peter Warren, Senior Advisor
                 Billy Grant, Professional Staff Member
             Lisa Piraneo, Senior Professional Staff Member
                    Margaret Harker, Senior Advisor
      Mallory Cogar, Deputy Director of Operations and Chief Clerk

                      Contact Number: 202-225-5074

                  Jamie Smith, Minority Staff Director
                      Contact Number: 202-225-5051
                                 ------                                

          Subcommittee on Delivering on Government Efficiency

              Marjorie Taylor Greene, Georgia, Chairwoman
Michael Cloud, Texas                 Melanie Stansbury, New Mexico, 
Pat Fallon, Texas                        Ranking Minority Member
William Timmons, South Carolina      Eleanor Holmes Norton, District of 
Tim Burchett, Tennessee                  Columbia
Eric Burlison, Missouri              Stephen Lynch, Massachusetts
Brian Jack, Georgia                  Robert Garcia, California
Brandon Gill, Texas                  Greg Casar, Texas
                                     Jasmine Crockett, Texas
                        
                        
                        C  O  N  T  E  N  T  S

                              ----------                              

                                                                   Page

Hearing held on June 4, 2025.....................................     1

                               Witnesses

                              ----------                              

Mr. Scott Walter, President, Capital Research Center
Oral Statement...................................................     6

Mr. Mark Krikorian, Executive Director, Center for Immigration 
  Studies
Oral Statement...................................................     8

Mr. Daniel Turner, Founder and Executive Director, Power the 
  Future
Oral Statement...................................................     9

Ms. Diane Yentel (Minority Witness), President and Chief 
  Executive Officer, National Council of Nonprofits
Oral Statement...................................................    11

Written opening statements and bios are available on the U.S. 
  House of Representatives Document Repository at: 
  docs.house.gov.

                           Index of Documents

                              ----------                              

  * Article, CBS News, ``Despite Trump's promised cuts, U.S. 
  spent more than $200 Billion more in first 100 days''; 
  submitted by Rep. Crockett.

  * Article, People, ``Donald Trump Allegedly Asked Aides if Elon 
  Musk's DOGE Promises Were `Bulls---'''; submitted by Rep. 
  Crockett.

  * Report, United Nations, ``Resolutions and Decisions of the 
  Economic and Social Council''; submitted by Rep. Gosar.

  * Article, New York Times, ``Investigators See No Criminality 
  by E.P.A. Officials in Case on Biden-Era Grants''; submitted by 
  Rep. Lynch.

  * Article, Washington Post, ``Trump's false claim that Stacey 
  Abrams headed a group that got $1.9 billion''; submitted by 
  Rep. Lynch.

  * Article, ProPublica, ``Power Forward Inc - 990''; submitted 
  by Rep. Timmons.

  * Statement for the Record, NAACP Legal Defense Fund; submitted 
  by Rep. Stansbury.

Documents are available at: docs.house.gov.

 
                     PUBLIC FUNDS, PRIVATE AGENDAS
                             NGOs GONE WILD

                              ----------                              


                        Wednesday, June 4, 2025

                     U.S. House of Representatives

              Committee on Oversight and Government Reform

          Subcommittee on Delivering on Government Efficiency

                                                   Washington, D.C.

    The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:09 p.m., 
Room HVC-210, U.S. Capitol Visitor Center, Hon. Marjorie Taylor 
Greene, [Chairwoman of the Subcommittee] presiding.
    Present: Representatives Greene, Comer, Cloud, Fallon, 
Timmons, Burchett, Burlison, Jack, Gill, Stansbury, Norton, 
Lynch, Garcia, Casar, and Crockett.
    Also present: Representatives Gosar, Pressley, and 
Moskowitz.
    Ms. Greene. This hearing of the Subcommittee on Delivering 
on Government Efficiency will come to order. Welcome, everyone. 
Without objection, the Chair may declare a recess at any time.
    I recognize myself for the purpose of making an opening 
statement.
    Good morning, and welcome to another DOGE Subcommittee 
hearing where we will highlight more abuses of your tax 
dollars. The left has funneled hundreds of billions of Federal 
tax dollars through nongovernmental organizations, NGOs, to 
push destructive policies and line the pockets of their friends 
and allies. This NGO scheme demonstrates massive waste and 
abuse of Federal resources.
    Today's hearing will bring transparency for the American 
people. We will expose the corrupt ties that bind left-wing 
NGOs, Democrat elected officials, Democrat political 
appointees, and the deep state bureaucrats who write grants and 
contracts.
    Corrupt backdoor deal-making has exploited the taxpayer 
purse to achieve policy ends opposed by the very Americans 
forced to fund them. Whether by pushing green energy scams or 
facilitating the resettlement of millions of illegal aliens 
into American towns and cities, the alliance between big 
government and allied NGOs has been highly effective and has 
been flying under the public's radar for far too long. But 
today, we are going to draw back the curtain.
    The scheme works in a cycle, as shown here. Democrat 
administration officials work with leftist NGOs to implement 
programs in a manner that ensures those NGOs receive massive 
grants and contracts. The leaders of those recipient groups 
then turn around and donate to Democrat political campaigns. 
This intricate web of connections is how elected and appointed 
Democrat officials and allied NGOs work together. Federal 
agencies fund the NGOs, and the NGOs shape the agency's 
behavior. It can be hard to tell where the government ends and 
the NGO begins. The nonprofits essentially serve as an arm of 
the government. To put it another way, if the permanent 
bureaucracy is the de facto fourth branch of the government, 
then these leftist NGOs are the fifth.
    Our witnesses today will describe how the left has funneled 
hundreds of billions of U.S. tax dollars through NGOs, discuss 
the destructive policies this has enabled, and detail the 
damage done to our country. So-called green energy NGOs are 
among the worst offenders. They have used Federal dollars to 
destabilize the U.S. power grid and energy dominance while 
raising energy costs on Americans. The Biden EPA steered 
billions in U.S. tax dollars to leftist climate NGOs via a $20 
billion slush fund known as the Greenhouse Gas Reduction Fund, 
GGRF. Like-minded nonprofits were enlisted to implement 
President Biden's Green New Deal scam.
    While we are grateful to the Trump Administration and EPA 
Administrator Lee Zeldin for shutting it down and quickly 
terminating these grants, further accountability is necessary. 
The full Committee on Oversight and Government Reform is 
investigating Biden's GGRF. We know that all the awardees are 
connected to both the Biden Administration and Democratic 
donors and that they sit on each other's boards in an 
incestuous circle. Today, we will shine light on this dynamic.
    Take, for example, who the Democrats choose to bring in as 
their witnesses, someone so entrenched into the system that she 
was a Director at the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban 
Development, a leader of a housing organization that lobbied 
for more Federal spending and now a nationally renowned 
nonprofit leader who donates to Democrat campaigns.
    Other examples include many green NGOs that employ former 
Biden Administration officials. These people wrote the rules 
for this climate grift in which they now partake. As government 
officials, they were paid by taxpayers to conduct the grift. 
Now, taxpayers are funding the grant awards that pay their 
salaries. This cash grab was so large that some nonprofits were 
birthed solely to get in on the game. One newly created 
nonprofit, Power Forward, received an astonishing $2 billion 
from Biden's EPA, despite having just been formed.
    Power Forward is now part of a network tied to Rewiring 
America which employs Stacey Abrams, the twice-failed Democrat 
candidate for Governor in Georgia and voting rights activist. 
After all, however, she would have been a good hire given her 
history of running her own nonprofit, which spent $3.2 million 
on campaign resources instructing voters to support her 
campaign, all of which are prohibited actions for nonprofits. 
Consequently, her nonprofit was levied the largest penalty ever 
imposed in Georgia's history for violating state campaign 
finance laws. This is the circle of life.
    Climate and energy is just one area where the entrenched 
bureaucrats and political appointees have partnered with NGOs 
to do the left's bidding. Illegal immigration is another. 
federally funded NGOs have egregiously abused tax dollars to 
fund the invasion at our southern border by providing housing, 
transportation, legal services, and more to shepherd illegal 
aliens across our border and settle them in our country. These 
NGOs support the cartels in their mission to invade our 
country. Under the guise of assisting migrants, these groups 
have placed criminal networks, dangerous gangs, and human 
traffickers into American towns and cities.
    Think about this. The American people's hard-earned 
taxpayer dollars have been used to literally import rapists, 
murderers, and terrorists from around the world straight into 
our communities. Where were these NGOs when 22-year-old Laken 
Riley was violently murdered by an illegal? Where were these 
NGOs when 12-year-old Jocelyn Nungaray was brutally raped and 
murdered by one of these illegals? And where were these NGOs 
when 20-year-old Kayla Hamilton was raped and strangled to 
death by an illegal? Where were these NGOs over the weekend 
when an illegal alien launched Molotov cocktails into a crowd 
in Boulder, Colorado, intentionally injuring a dozen Americans 
in an antisemitic attack? I will tell you. They were continuing 
to receive taxpayer dollars to import more of these illegal 
alien monsters to commit more heinous crimes against our 
people.
    Many Americans are familiar with the more egregious 
offenders. These include Catholic Charities, which raked in 
over $2 billion during Biden's 4 years, and the Lutheran 
Immigration and Refugee Service, which received over $221 
million in government grants in Fiscal Year 2023 alone. But 
many American taxpayers are still unwittingly funding this sort 
of illegal activity through the United Nations, which is the 
conduit for much of the funding NGOs use to resettle in our 
country.
    Americans are likely unaware that their tax dollars are 
funding U.N. efforts such as the Cash and Voucher program 
involving 624,000 illegal aliens crossing the border just last 
year. This $372 million program provides prepaid debit cards 
and cash in envelopes to illegal aliens to facilitate their 
movement to and through the U.S. border. The American taxpayer 
is funding groups that start the migration, the groups that 
show people how to cross the border by evading U.S. immigration 
laws. These groups that have been bussed and flown, illegal 
aliens, many of them dangerous, into America.
    Whether exploiting taxpayers to push illegal immigration or 
fake environmental justice, the left's NGO scheme seeks to 
destroy our country and fundamentally alter the American way of 
life. This ongoing waste and abuse of taxpayer resources must 
end. The Trump Administration is turning the tide, and today's 
hearing is intended to expedite the effort to drain these slush 
funds dry. If we do not, Democrats can't wait to return to 
power and continue funding their NGO friends through slush 
funds and stop deportations, keep these illegal alien criminals 
in our country, and, of course, fund the Green New Deal scam 
again.
    And with that, I yield to the Ranking Member Stansbury for 
her opening statement.
    Ms. Stansbury. All right. Well, good afternoon everyone. 
Welcome, indeed, to the DOGE Subcommittee. It is always an 
interesting journey here.
    Madam Chairwoman, before we get started, I want to take a 
moment to observe that this very Subcommittee was created in 
January to act as the congressional tip of the spear for DOGE 
and Elon Musk's efforts inside the Federal Government, which 
our GOP colleagues were falling all over themselves to get in 
on the action. And in fact, I do not know if you know this, 
Madam Chairwoman, but one of your own GOP Members who could not 
get on the Committee actually contacted me to see if I could 
help because they were so desperate to participate in this 
activity.
    But here we are. I feel like we should play a breakup song 
in the midst of the breakup of the GOP with Elon Musk and DOGE, 
and yet still the zombie lurches on. And you know, I think it 
is interesting that people are barely saying his name in these 
halls and this Subcommittee barely has any credibility at this 
point. And Elon Musk still has not appeared under oath in front 
of this Committee or anybody here in Congress.
    And in fact, Donald Trump himself apparently asked his own 
aides this week if DOGE was--and I quote the President--
bullshit. Donald Trump asked if DOGE was bullshit. Meanwhile, 
our friend, Mr. Musk, is going crazy on Twitter. We just 
checked. He is still going at it. And he literally has been 
tweet-storming the GOP for the last 24 hours. And he says, 
``I'm sorry, but I just can't stand it anymore. This massive, 
outrageous, pork-filled congressional spending bill is a 
disgusting abomination. Shame on those who voted for it. You 
know you did wrong. You know it.'' And you know what I find 
interesting about his tweet is that he says, ``I'm sorry, I 
just can't stand it anymore.''
    And I think, you know, the American people have been there 
for the last 3 1/2 months as they have dismantled the Federal 
Government, as Musk and Trump and his friends here have helped 
lay wake to the Federal Government, dismantling Federal 
agencies, firing thousands of Federal workers, stealing your 
private data, costing the Federal Government millions of 
dollars. And in fact, it appears that they may have actually 
cost more money than they apparently saved. So, it is hard to 
take any of this seriously or with any credibility.
    Musk lied about DOGE and its savings. The President and the 
Speaker just this morning, once again, lied about the big 
abomination of the bill and the deficit spending in it. There 
was a misrepresentation of a witness in this hearing last time. 
There were lies about the budget reconciliation and, yes, the 
DOGE package, which was transmitted to Congress yesterday. And 
I do not think I even need to comment on the wild journey of 
baseless conspiracy theories that we just heard.
    So, it is very clear that DOGE has made America less safe, 
less secure, undermined our global and national security, 
compromised our data privacy, impacted our ability to serve our 
vulnerable communities, and left the government in total chaos. 
And yet, many of these DOGE brothers have implanted themselves 
inside of Federal agencies and are now answering directly to 
the West Wing and to the Director of Office of Management and 
Budget, Mr. Russell Vought, who, by the way, is testifying just 
across this campus on his bill for the Fiscal Year 2026 budget, 
which would eviscerate these programs.
    So, I want to say, first they came for our Federal 
agencies. Then they came for our judges and law firms and the 
rule of law. Then they came for the free press and your freedom 
of speech. Then they came for higher education and our 
children. Then they came for congressional offices. And now, 
here they are, coming for civil society and nonprofit 
organizations.
    What are nonprofit organizations? Food banks, legal aid 
clinics, homeless shelters, organizations that are the glue of 
our communities. In fact, right now, they are withholding a 
half trillion dollars illegally from nonprofit organizations 
that provide services for our communities: public safety, 
health services, housing, the Big Brothers and Big Sisters of 
America, Boys and Girls Club, and Habitat for Humanity. Is this 
the dark money scare that we are hearing across the aisle? I 
think all of us understand what these organizations do in our 
communities.
    But let us be clear. The actions that are happening here in 
this Committee and which the Administration are trying to 
execute through executive actions, through letters, and yes, 
sending DOGE employees baselessly and illegally into nonprofit 
organizations, are illegal. They lack moral authority, and they 
lack legal authority.
    The truth is simple. Neither the President nor any other 
executive branch official has the power to unilaterally revoke 
an organization's tax-exempt status or to use these 
authoritarian tactics to try to intimidate our nonprofit and 
civil society organizations. And we will dive deeper into that 
topic and your rights during this hearing.
    But if my colleagues across the aisle want to talk about 
dark money networks, we can look no further than this very 
hearing room. Because if we actually want to understand the 
dark money-funded networks that are making the government run 
right now, let us talk about Project 2025. The witnesses who 
are here today as part of the organizations that helped to 
craft it. Mr. Vought, who was at the helm as the architect of 
that document, and the folks who are inside the Federal 
Government right now dismantling our agencies and attacking 
every aspect of our democracy. We will not stand for it.
    And with that, Madam Chairwoman, I yield back.
    Ms. Greene. Without objection, Representatives Gosar of 
Arizona, Moskowitz of Florida, and Pressley of Massachusetts 
are waived on to the Subcommittee for the purpose of 
questioning the witnesses at today's committee hearing.
    I am pleased to introduce our witnesses today. Scott Walter 
is the President of Capital Research Center and an expert in 
investigating how nonprofits spend money and get involved in 
politics and advocacy.
    Mark Krikorian is the Executive Director of the Center of 
Immigration Studies and is an expert on the issues of 
immigration and border security.
    Daniel Turner is the Founder and Executive Director of 
Power the Future and an expert in energy and environmental 
issues.
    Diane Yentel is the President and Chief Executive Officer 
of the National Council of Nonprofits.
    Again, I want to thank all of you for being here to testify 
today.
    Pursuant to Committee Rule 9(g), the witnesses will please 
stand and raise their right hand.
    Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you are 
about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but 
the truth, so help you God?
    [Chorus of ayes.]
    Ms. Greene. Let the record show that the witnesses answered 
in the affirmative. Thank you. You may take a seat.
    We appreciate you being here today and look forward to your 
testimony. Let me remind the witnesses that we have read your 
written statements, and they will appear in full in the hearing 
record. Please limit your oral statement to 5 minutes.
    As a reminder, please press the button on the microphone in 
front of you so that it is on and the Members can hear you. 
When you begin to speak, the light in front of you will turn 
green. After 4 minutes, the light will turn yellow. When the 
red light comes on, your 5 minutes has expired, and we would 
ask that you please wrap it up quickly.
    I now recognize Mr. Walter for his opening statement.

                       STATEMENT OF SCOTT WALTER

                               PRESIDENT

                        CAPITAL RESEARCH CENTER

    Mr. Walter. Thank you, Chairwoman Greene, Ranking Member 
Stansbury, distinguished Members of the Subcommittee. Thank you 
for the honor of testifying. I am president of the Capital 
Research Center, where we study nonprofits every day.
    Americans are proud of our nonprofit sector, which has long 
led the world because they love real charities that actually 
help people here and abroad. They do not think of the nonprofit 
sector as the plaything of billionaires and politicians. Yet, 
all too often, that is the reality of our nongovernmental 
organizations, or NGOs.
    Far too many NGOs are really BGOs, basically government 
organizations, for two reasons. First, they get most of their 
money from government, not citizens. Second, they serve the big 
government political agenda that fights to centralize power in 
Washington for the benefit of the left's preferred political 
party.
    From countless egregious examples, consider the Solidarity 
Center. This nonprofit child of the country's largest union 
federation, the AFL-CIO, is chaired by the AFL-CIO's president. 
The Solidarity Center does not just boost unions. It also 
champions DEI and climate justice. It is suing the current 
administration because DOGE recommended its Federal gravy train 
end. It has received over $86 million from the Federal 
Government since 2008. Sixty-one of that $86 million was given 
under President Biden, doubtless encouraged by the three 
Solidarity employees who went into the Labor Department.
    Solidarity receives 99 percent of its revenue from American 
taxpayers. It serves the AFL-CIO, which gave 86 percent of its 
2024 political donations to Democrats.
    Today's Democratic witness, Diane Yentel, is yet another 
powerful example of nonprofits serving big government. One of 
her typical tweets attacked DOGE and defended the Vera 
Institute of Justice, which in 2023 received 79 percent of its 
revenues from government. It is a hard left, Soros-backed group 
whose priorities oppose the views of America's Democratic 
majority by advocating soft-on-crime policies and defending 
illegal aliens. Its biggest vendor in its last IRS filing was 
Blue State Digital, which began life as Barack Obama's digital 
campaign team and now serves the entire left.
    Ms. Yentel was hired by Obama at HUD, and President Biden 
considered her for a Cabinet post. Her previous job was leading 
the National Low-Income Housing Coalition, an NGO that 
advocates for evermore Federal spending by HUD and uses 
identity politics to justify its agenda.
    In her current job, leading the National Council of 
Nonprofits, Ms. Yentel quickly sued the Trump Administration 
over budget cuts. What lawyers did she turn to? The Democracy 
Forward Foundation, whose board includes President Biden's 
notorious Chief of Staff, Ron Klain, and is chaired by Marc 
Elias, the Democratic super-lawyer.
    Ms. Yentel claims the Republican tax bill would have handed 
``unchecked power to the Trump Administration to punish 
nonprofit orgs that do not fall in line with its ideology by 
labeling them as terrorist-supporting groups.'' Nonsense. As an 
honest left-leaning law professor explained in The Chronicle of 
Philanthropy, ``A despot seeking to silence nonprofits would be 
weakened, not empowered by the legislation.''
    No wonder nonprofit expert Bill Schambra warned that 
Yentel's partisanship at a major nonprofit membership group may 
erode public support for nonprofits by suggesting ``nonprofits 
are just like any other major institution of American society, 
fighting fiercely to maintain the status quo against necessary 
reforms.''
    It is understandable, though not admirable, that status quo 
nonprofit leaders are scared by DOGE examining their government 
funding. They will use an Urban Institute study designed to 
scare you, Members of Congress, with statistics like 
``government grants support nonprofits in every congressional 
district.'' No one explains why it is wonderful that so many 
nonprofits are as dependent on government cash as a meth addict 
is on methamphetamine.
    The same study stresses how larger nonprofits especially 
hoover up tax dollars, but while big nonprofits are often less 
effective at helping people compared to smaller neighborhood 
groups, they certainly are more powerful at lobbying government 
in the service of bigger government and the left. They are also 
great at suing government.
    This politicized pseudo-charity aimed at bloating 
government and seizing political power goes back decades as 
when the Obama Administration took money from Catholic 
Charities and gave it to Planned Parenthood. This is a simple 
ugly story of tax dollars, cronyism, and political scheming 
camouflaged by invoking the moving stories of the real heroes 
of America's charitable sector. Please do not fall for the sob 
stories.
    Ms. Greene. Thank you, Mr. Walter.
    I now recognize Mr. Krikorian for his opening statement.

                      STATEMENT OF MARK KRIKORIAN

                           EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR

                     CENTER FOR IMMIGRATION STUDIES

    Mr. Krikorian. Thank you. During the 4 years of the Biden 
Administration, the United States devoted significant taxpayer 
funds to facilitating illegal immigration. There has been much 
reporting about the role of NGOs in this process after the 
illegal immigrants crossed into the United States, but what the 
center has examined is what happened before the migrants got to 
the Rio Grande, in other words, how NGOs and U.N. agencies were 
paid by U.S. taxpayers to facilitate the illegal movement of 
migrants through South and Central America and Mexico.
    We have documented a large U.N. NGO support network from 
field reporting and annual reports from this group called the 
Regional Refugee and Migrant Response Plan. This network 
consisted of waystations all along Latin American illegal 
migration routes that made it possible for millions of foreign 
nationals from as many as 180 countries to illegally get to the 
U.S. border, in part funded by U.S. taxpayers. Some of these 
funds were provided directly to NGOs by the State Department's 
Bureau of Population, Refugees, and Migration, or USAID. Other 
funding was sent indirectly through our funding of U.N. 
agencies, which then in turn funded NGOs.
    This often was described as merely humanitarian assistance 
to people who would travel anyway, but in reality this amounted 
to a coordinated, well-funded assistance to designed to 
undermine U.S. immigration laws. Starting in South America and 
Central America, NGOs handed out millions of dollars' worth of 
supplies designed to assist recipients in their plans to 
illegally breach the borders, not just of the United States, 
but of half a dozen countries along the way.
    Just a couple of examples, in Colombia, in northwestern 
Colombia, the Center found NGOs working in coordination with a 
paramilitary drug smuggling group called Clan del Golfo, also 
known as the Gaitanistas, which controlled the smuggling routes 
in those areas. To get an idea of how this worked, there is a 
town in northwest Colombia called Necocli, which is a major 
staging area for migrants trying to cross the Gulf of Uraba to 
get to the jumping-off point for trips through the Darien Gap. 
Well, our researcher went to Necocli and found what amounted to 
kind of a swap meet or farmer's market of NGO groups with 
booths of U.N. and NGO organizations there to provide 
assistance.
    Just a couple of examples, the Florida-based NGO Cadena was 
set up in a booth next to the Silver Spring-based Adventist 
Development and Relief Agency, and there were many other U.S.-
based and overseas-based groups there. And they provided a 
variety of services, assistance on how to make it through the 
Darien Gap, food, dry socks, backpacks, et cetera.
    When they crossed that Gulf of Uraba, they are still in 
Colombia, and they get to the village of Acandi, which is where 
you jump off to go to the Darien Gap. And there, the NGO U.N. 
group, the camp, was in a camp where the security for the camp 
was provided by this drug-smuggling gang. In other words--and 
it is not clear to us, we do not have evidence of this, but it 
seems likely to me that NGOs and the U.N. paid for the security 
by paying this drug-smuggling gang for security for this 
jumping-off point.
    After they pass through Central America, they get to 
southern Mexico, cross from Guatemala into southern Mexico. And 
there, Tapachula is the town that is the first place you get 
to. And what we found there was a large, kind of a one-stop 
shop illegal immigration mall where the U.N. agencies and the 
NGOs were supposed to be housing them. This was under 
construction when we went last fall. And it was only one of 
many similar camps. There are several in northern Mexico as 
well.
    Especially curious in Tapachula was an NGO that is funded 
by the United Nations, which means funded by the U.S., which 
provided repressed memory therapy for illegal immigrants who 
had been rejected for asylum by Mexico, which they do in order 
to be able to make it through Mexico without hassles. They had 
been rejected. They went to the repressed memory therapy and 
got a certificate that they had forgotten about the persecution 
they had suffered, and now they remembered it, and so they went 
to their appeal, and they got their asylum status.
    So, throughout Latin America, these networks, funded in 
part by U.S. taxpayers, have made this flow of illegal 
immigrants possible, and yet oversight has remained absent, and 
Congress has not cracked down and insisted that recipients of 
funding not engage in promoting illegal immigration.
    Ms. Greene. Thank you, Mr. Krikorian.
    I now recognize Mr. Turner for his opening statement.

                       STATEMENT OF DANIEL TURNER

                     FOUNDER AND EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR

                            POWER THE FUTURE

    Mr. Turner. Madam Chairman Greene, Ranking Member 
Stansbury, good afternoon, and thank you for the opportunity to 
appear before the Committee today.
    Three words often heard in tandem with DOGE are waste, 
fraud, and abuse, and I hope my testimony can shed light on the 
third word, abuse.
    I started my organization, Power the Future, to advocate 
for energy workers in rural America, and it has come to light 
that on the other side of that fight, the climate movement 
received billions from taxpayers, and that is the abuse I wish 
to highlight.
    The 2022 Inflation Reduction Act set aside hundreds of 
billions of dollars for the green agenda. The Environmental 
Protection Agency received tens of billions. As reported by the 
Washington Free Beacon, a staffer from an environmental group 
called the Coalition for Green Capital named Jahai Weiss joined 
the Biden EPA to direct $27 billion in green funding. For 
context, $27 billion is larger than the budgets of the 
Departments of Treasury, Interior, and Commerce, yet Mr. Jahai 
went through no confirmation process, and his decision to 
direct tens of billions to organizations of his choosing had no 
congressional oversight. And conveniently, under his tenure in 
this new EPA role, $5 billion was granted to his former 
organization, the Coalition for Green Capital.
    The abundance of green dollars created a new pernicious 
mechanism, create a group for the sole purpose of getting 
government grants. For example, Power Forward Communities was 
only a few months old when it applied for and received nearly 
$9 billion to distribute at its own discretion, and one lucky 
recipient was an organization affiliated with two-time Georgia 
gubernatorial candidate Stacey Abrams. With only $100 in the 
bank, this group received $2 billion.
    Yes, it is legal to create a nonprofit to get IRS 
accreditation, apply for and receive government grants, but it 
is fair to question the process and demand transparency. What 
does the application for a $9 billion grant look like, 
particularly when an organization has no staff, no history in 
this space, no office, and is only a few months old? A 
Department of Defense grant of this size would have layers of 
transparency. A Department of Transportation grant that size 
would require a bond to guarantee deliverables, yet it seems 
that in the name of climate change, unvetted, unelected, 
unconfirmed bureaucrats require no safeguards, and this is the 
precedent of pernicious funding.
    Any future President can announce a slush fund, appoint 
loyalists to dole it out, and anyone can create a group to get 
government billions if they know the right people, bypassing 
that pesky thing called Congress.
    In his recent Senate hearing, Secretary of State Rubio said 
DOGE uncovered for every $1 spent at USAID, only 12 cents was 
actually received in aid. The rest was spent on overhead, high 
salaries, dinners, events, travel, raising awareness. You can 
call it overhead. A better term is grift.
    But this funding scandal is far worse in context, for at 
the same time the Biden Administration was generously rewarding 
climate groups with billions, they enacted the most radical 
energy agenda in history, which punished the American people. 
Making energy expensive made life expensive, and we saw under 
the Biden Administration record high inflation, skyrocketing 
price of energy, gas, utilities, food, and consumer goods. It 
was bad enough to dole out billions, but to do it to the very 
groups making America unaffordable was a new low even for 
Washington, DC. And unless this Congress changes the laws, the 
mechanisms are still in place to appropriate new funds using a 
new crisis, forming new groups, skirting Congress, and ripping 
off the taxpayers.
    Last week, my organization sent letters to this Committee 
and Attorney General Bondi calling for an investigation into 
the Biden Administration use of autopen on green executive 
orders, asking if Biden himself directed them, or if the staff 
took leniencies, a very severe accusation, but made even more 
plausible in the light of this hearing. Abuse. Abuse of the 
purse, abuse of the pen, also that climate groups and their 
political allies could benefit. This is the very worst of 
Washington and why the American people have such little trust 
in government.
    For our Nation to survive, Congress must restore trust in 
government, end the slush fund abuse, stop the grift, and it is 
my sincere hope that my appearance here today can help begin 
the process.
    Thank you, and I look forward to your questions.
    Ms. Greene. Thank you, Mr. Turner.
    I now recognize Ms. Yentel for her opening statement.

                       STATEMENT OF DIANE YENTEL

                 PRESIDENT AND CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER

                     NATIONAL COUNCIL OF NONPROFITS

    Ms. Yentel. Chairwoman Greene, Ranking Member Stansbury, 
and Members of the Subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity 
to share how America's charitable nonprofits serve communities 
across the country. From small towns to big cities, in every 
congressional district and state, nonprofits feed, heal, 
shelter, and nurture people of all walks of life and every 
political persuasion. From hospitals to libraries, churches to 
food banks, from veterans to school children, artists to 
researchers, charitable nonprofits touch and benefit all 
Americans, all our lives.
    Nonprofits are local, accountable, transparent, and are 
nonpartisan by law and in practice. The vast majority of 
nonprofits are small to mid-sized. Ninety-two percent have 
budgets of less than $1 million.
    Nonprofits step in to fill gaps not met by government or 
other entities alone. They show up in times of crisis, 
providing disaster relief, hotlines, and safety from danger, 
and they meet everyday needs in local communities, from 
providing childcare and eldercare, job training, or essential 
food and shelter. Simply put, the work of charitable nonprofits 
improves lives and strengthens communities and the country.
    Nonprofits represent the best of America, neighbors helping 
neighbors. Despite this essential work, nonprofits are at risk 
and under attack by this Administration and by some in 
Congress. Across the country, nonprofits are having Federal 
funding slashed or eliminated due to arbitrary cuts of 
congressionally approved spending and through reckless and 
unlawful Federal funding freezes by the Trump Administration.
    These actions are causing real harm. Food banks across the 
country, already struggling with high levels of need, are 
serving fewer meals due to spending cuts. Nonprofit health 
clinics have closed, leaving neighbors without access to 
potentially life-saving care. Nonprofits focused on preventing 
violence and crime have seen their budgets disappear, putting a 
stop to critical work. Afterschool programs have been canceled, 
and school lunch programs are squeezed. Nonprofits that serve 
young mothers, respond to disasters, help address mental health 
or substance use, or operate child enrichment programs face 
funding shortfalls.
    And the threats to nonprofits are broader than Federal 
funding. Senior members of this Administration and some 
witnesses here today give egregious mischaracterizations of the 
work of nonprofits, even using dangerous rhetoric to vilify 
nonprofits. There are repeated threats against nonprofits that 
hold views that do not align with this Administration, from 
statements calling for the illegal unilateral revoking of their 
tax-exempt status to attempted takeovers, audits, and even 
threats of civil or criminal investigations by the Federal 
Government, not for any wrongdoing, but for doing work at odds 
with the Administration's ideology.
    The Administration's targeting of organizations and 
institutions with which it disagrees is a fundamentally un-
American action and something that should concern us all. These 
actions are not about government efficiency or about reform. 
They are attempted censorship disguised as accountability. This 
is weaponization of the Federal Government to chill dissent, 
and it is wrong, whatever party is in control.
    In a functioning and healthy democracy, nonprofits must be 
free to identify and meet local needs without political 
interference, fear of retribution, or facing punishment for 
holding a different point of view from those in political 
power. Nonprofits are the backbone of our country, providing 
critical support to communities and saving lives. Defending and 
supporting their essential work should not divide us along 
political lines. It should unite us as Americans.
    Thank you for the opportunity, and I look forward to your 
questions.
    Ms. Greene. I now recognize myself for 5 minutes of 
questioning.
    The American people definitely support nonprofits, but what 
they do not support is corruption, waste, fraud, and abuse. In 
2024, right as the Biden Administration was leaving office, the 
Democrats finalized the awards that amounted to $20 billion 
under its greenhouse gas reduction slush fund to launder 
government funding to eight politically aligned nonprofits, 
several of which were newly created solely to join in on the 
massive grift. One of these awardees is Power Forward.
    Mr. Turner, you have spent a lot of time diving into 
leftist green NGOs. Was the NGO Power Forward just created a 
couple of years ago, yes or no?
    Mr. Turner. Yes.
    Ms. Greene. In Fiscal Year 2023, did Power Forward report 
only $100 in revenue on their 990 financial disclosure form?
    Mr. Turner. Yes.
    Ms. Greene. Was Power Forward slated to receive $2 billion 
in Federal funding?
    Mr. Turner. Yes, that is 20 million times revenue.
    Ms. Greene. Is it commonplace for completely new nonprofits 
with zero track record to receive a multi-billion dollar grant 
from the Federal Government?
    Mr. Turner. There is no private entity that would give an 
organization 20 million times revenue after a few months of 
creation. Only government is stupid enough to do that.
    Ms. Greene. That is right. There is no business in America 
that could get that loan from a bank.
    Is Rewiring America part of the same NGO coalition as Power 
Forward?
    Mr. Turner. Part of the same coalition, yes.
    Ms. Greene. Did Rewiring America hire Stacey Abrams?
    Mr. Turner. She is affiliated with the organization. It is 
unclear in what capacity, but yes.
    Ms. Greene. Is she an energy expert?
    Mr. Turner. No.
    Ms. Greene. So, it is pretty eye-opening that a brand new 
politically connected group got such a massive Federal grant. 
Rewiring America hired Stacey Abrams, as far as we know, a 
twice-failed candidate for Georgia Governor and well-known 
Democrat activist, even though she has little to no knowledge 
of energy policy, but the leader of Power Forward praised 
Abrams for playing a pivotal role in securing these billions. 
Notably, Abrams' PAC spent over $126 million on Democrat 
campaigns over the last 5 years. This recirculation of taxpayer 
funds literally is the Democrats' circle of life.
    Mr. Krikorian, we witnessed the worst border immigration 
catastrophe under the Biden Administration. It seems to me that 
many immigration-oriented NGOs have double-dipped their hands 
in taxpayer money. My first question is how influential were 
the American taxpayer-funded NGOs at facilitating the movement 
of illegal aliens to and through our country's borders?
    Mr. Krikorian. Extremely influential. Now, some of this 
would have happened anyway because of the Biden 
Administration's invitation to mass illegal immigration, but 
the invitation required some means of this happening, some 
means of doing it. And so, what it did is the taxpayer money 
essentially turned the illegal immigration crisis up to 11. It 
would have existed otherwise, but it was significantly 
magnified by this government funding.
    Ms. Greene. By the Biden's Administration policies.
    Mr. Krikorian. Right.
    Ms. Greene. You have mentioned that the United Nations pay 
psychologists to help illegal aliens reverse asylum denials on 
appeal. Specifically, tax dollars go to the United Nations, 
which directs and pays psychologists to help illegal aliens 
unearth repressed memories of torture, persecution, and human 
rights violation so that they can legally claim asylum. Is this 
an intentional effort to subvert our immigration laws by 
creating fake narratives for asylum seekers?
    Mr. Krikorian. I cannot put myself into someone else's 
head, but I cannot imagine any other plausible way to describe 
it. And initially, just to be clear, they use this to get 
Mexican asylum, which they use as a kind of trampoline to get 
to the United States, and then present those repressed memory 
documents as part of their evidence when they are in removal 
proceedings as part of their asylum claims.
    Ms. Greene. And do they provide legal help to apply for 
asylum claims?
    Mr. Krikorian. That is inside the United States, so that is 
beyond the scope of my testimony here.
    Ms. Greene. Thank you. Mr. Walter, you have been 
investigating NGO funding sources for a long time. Do you know 
of other examples of former elected or appointed officials in 
the NGO sector securing significant Federal tax dollars through 
grants or contracts?
    Mr. Walter. Well, we have had mentioned here the $2 billion 
slush fund, and of course, the OMB and HUD Director, Shaun 
Donovan, has been mixed up in that. And then, of course, there 
have been public reports as well about the millions of dollars 
that the wife of Senator Sheldon Whitehouse has received from 
NGOs whose legislation he has helped push.
    Ms. Greene. Yes. Thank you. My time has expired, and thank 
you all for being here.
    I now recognize Ranking Member Stansbury for 5 minutes of 
questions.
    Ms. Stansbury. Thank you so much, Madam Chairwoman.
    And I want to welcome back some of our guests here today. 
Mr. Krikorian, I recognize you from last summer when you came 
to testify. Welcome back.
    Just want to clarify, you served on the board for Project 
2025, is that correct?
    Mr. Krikorian. I do not think I was on a board. We were one 
of the advisors for it, but yes.
    Ms. Stansbury. So, yes, you served in an advisory role on 
Project 2025. I appreciate that. And Mr. Walter, I just want to 
clarify a few things about Capital Research Center. This is the 
organization that acted as a fiscal sponsor for Ginni Thomas' 
nonprofit, correct?
    Mr. Walter. For a project that she was one of many people 
involved with, yes.
    Ms. Stansbury. Yes. And this is Ginni Thomas, Justice 
Clarence Thomas' wife. And my understanding is that there was a 
donor-advised fund that was the primary donor to that funding 
under fiscal sponsorship. In fact, it looks like about $400,000 
was channeled through your organization. And if I am correct, 
based on what I see here, the primary donors are the Koch 
brothers, the Searles, the Mercers, oh, and Leonard Leo. And 
some of you may recall Leonard Leo because, of course, he is at 
the center of many of the big issues around Supreme Court 
ethics. But also, you all may recognize him because last week 
Donald Trump called him a sleazebag who probably hates America 
for his interference in the judiciary and his efforts to try to 
undermine what Donald Trump is trying to do. So, a very 
interesting cast of characters indeed.
    And Mr. Turner, as I understand it, you are a former 
employee of the Koch Institute, correct?
    Mr. Turner. Yes.
    Ms. Stansbury. All right. So, I think, you know, these are 
always very interesting hearings we have in the Oversight 
Committee. We have some retreads of some witnesses who have 
been here before, all of which are participants in 
organizations that were involved in Project 2025 that are 
funded through the same dark money networks and organizations 
of the Koch brothers and Leonard Leo and the Searles and the 
Mercers who fund all this stuff. Project 2025, the stuff that 
is happening in front of the Supreme Court, rolling back our 
rights, that helped to get, you know, over 70 Project 2025 
authors placed in the Administration acting in high-level roles 
right now that are bringing cases in front of the Supreme 
Court, undermining our democracy, and which are attacking 
organizations who are working on civil society programs.
    So, I think I already said this, but I think it is very 
clear what is going on here. And I want to point out that the 
project that Ms. Ginni Thomas was fundraising for through 
Capital Research Center, let us see, what was the direct quote, 
literally was formed with the mission to attack the left, a 
culture war, to wage a culture war against the left, so I think 
we can see what is going on here.
    But this is not a joke, right? Ms. Yentel, you are here in 
your role of helping to advise nonprofit organizations and 
provide institutional infrastructure. I know there has been a 
number of untrue things said here today, both about your own 
professional background, as well as the affiliated 
organizations that help to support our small nonprofits across 
the country. But I think it is really important--and this is a 
message we want to drive home today--that the attacks on 
nonprofit organizations that the Trump Administration is 
undertaking, including trying to find executive authority to 
take away tax-exempt status, are both illegal and immoral. 
Would you agree?
    Ms. Yentel. Excuse me. Thank you for the question. Yes, it 
is illegal for the President or any member of the executive 
office to direct the IRS to make any changes to the tax status 
of an individual or an organization. And in fact, the law makes 
clear that if the President threatens to revoke tax-exempt 
status from an individual organization, they can be convicted 
up to 5 years in prison.
    Ms. Stansbury. And, so, could you please tell us, you know, 
we want to make sure that for any nonprofit watching, because I 
know there are probably hundreds if not thousands across the 
country because they are deeply concerned of what might be 
coming, what should nonprofits be doing to prepare if DOGE or 
the Administration tries to either infiltrate or take away 
their status?
    Ms. Yentel. Well, nonprofits should know that that is 
illegal, and they do. That is part of what we have been working 
to educate nonprofits. But mostly what nonprofits should 
continue to do is the incredibly important, vital work that 
they do in communities and to try not to be distracted by 
threats and unlawful actions by the President.
    Nonprofit organizations are local, they are transparent, 
accountable, they are non-partisan, and they do vital work in 
communities with communities, identifying and prioritizing 
local needs, and then working with the communities to meet 
those needs in ways that the government and other private 
entities do not.
    Ms. Greene. The gentlelady's time has expired.
    I now recognize the Chairman of Oversight, Mr. Comer from 
Kentucky.
    Chairman Comer. Thank you, Madam Chair.
    Mr. Turner, I have launched an investigation, or the 
Committee has, we all have, into the role of former senior 
White House officials in possibly abusing the authority of 
former President Joe Biden while the former President was 
rapidly deteriorating mentally and physically. We will be 
conducting transcribed interviews of a number of former White 
House officials to understand who was really making the 
decisions for President Biden.
    Your group, Power the Future, has expressed concerns that 
over half a dozen of the Biden Administration executive 
actions, which were signed by the autopen, related to climate 
policy should be deemed null and void, again, due to the fact 
that they were signed by the autopen without any public comment 
from President Biden confirming his knowledge of them. Now, why 
is it important that the American people know the truth about 
whether President Biden knowingly signed these orders making 
significant and drastic shifts in our energy policy?
    Mr. Turner. Thank you for the question, sir. We are looking 
at this from the sense of deceit of the American people. This 
is impersonation of the President. Staffers, of course, have a 
lot of leniency in what they do working on behalf of the 
President, but these executive orders that we identified, there 
is no evidence of Joe Biden in first person in his voice as 
President talking about them.
    And I see some Pennsylvanians on the panel. When you ban 
the export of liquid natural gas and you never get asked about 
it in person, one has to wonder if Joe Biden did it or if a 
staffer did it on his behalf.
    Chairman Comer. You specifically expressed concern that 
President Biden was not aware of that specific action to 
implement the executive order pausing liquefied natural gas 
permits. Now, why are you specifically concerned the President 
was unaware of that specific order?
    Mr. Turner. Well, there is an anecdote from earlier this 
year where Speaker of the House Johnson mentioned he was in 
conversation with President Biden and brought it up, and the 
President said, I do not know what you are talking about. At 
the time, that was understood as, wow, maybe the President's a 
little worse off than we realized, but maybe two things can be 
true. Maybe he really did not know what Speaker Johnson was 
talking about. Maybe he had no idea he passed this executive 
order. And if the President has never asked about it and he 
hides from the press and there is no opportunity for him to get 
asked in public about it, how do we know he actually did it? 
And these are serious executive orders. This is not----
    Chairman Comer. It is bizarre. You know, when President 
Trump signed his executive orders, we saw him sign the 
executive orders. He had a big event. You know, they were 
talking about the executive orders. They said, this is what 
this specific executive order is.
    Mr. Turner. Correct.
    Chairman Comer. We never saw any of that.
    Mr. Turner. No, and lives were destroyed, sir. And when you 
ban the export of liquid natural gas, there are hundreds of 
thousands of men and women who work in the natural gas 
industry.
    Chairman Comer. Right.
    Mr. Turner. Lives are destroyed. People went bankrupt----
    Chairman Comer. Yes.
    Mr. Turner [continuing]. Because of that, and we have no 
evidence that Joe Biden himself actually ordered it.
    Chairman Comer. We have not found any evidence either 
that--and ironically, unlike some of the investigations we have 
done in the past with respect to the former President, not many 
of the colleagues on the other side of the aisle are disputing 
many of the things that have come out in the Tapper book, the 
things that have come out with statements like former 
Transportation Secretary Buttigieg and others have said that 
they were shielded from the President.
    So, we look forward to having these staffers come in. Our 
Committee will be conducting transcribed interviews, possibly 
depositions, depending on how quickly they come in, and 
hopefully, we will get the truth to the American people.
    I want to switch gears and talk about the NGOs. The full 
Committee has another investigation into, you know, the green 
energy scam--I do not know how else to put it--known as the 
Greenhouse Gas Reduction Fund, and the NGOs that receive 
significant amounts of money through it. Can you tell us a 
little bit about this?
    And the NGOs and the left, obviously, they advocate for 
initiatives as an excuse to spend billions in local communities 
but enrich themselves too. Who else benefits from these 
handouts? You know, every Democrat, I know Ms. Stansbury loves 
government programs, they love to spend money and create 
bureaucracies, but who really benefits from programs like this 
specific scam that I talked about?
    Mr. Turner. The operatives aligned to these organizations, 
consultancy groups, PR firms, lawyers, and it is all just an 
enormous cabal. They hire each other.
    Chairman Comer. That sounds like a base for one of the two 
political parties.
    Mr. Turner. A hundred percent.
    Chairman Comer. Well, thank you very much. We look forward 
to this Committee working to get the truth to the American 
people and try to get spending under control. And, you know, we 
are going to see if these executive orders were really 
authorized by the President or if this was being done 
unilaterally by some unnamed bureaucrats.
    Madam Chair, thank you for this Subcommittee hearing. I 
yield back.
    Ms. Greene. Thank you. The gentleman yields.
    And I now recognize Ms. Norton from Washington, DC.
    Ms. Norton. Thank you, Madam Chair.
    Today's hearing is yet another attempt to rationalize the 
repeated attempts by the Trump Administration to destroy the 
ability of the Federal Government to address the needs of the 
American people. Spending months denigrating Federal employees 
and gutting the civil service is not enough for the 
Administration. The President is also attacking universities, 
law firms, nonprofit groups, and charities in a desperate 
attempt to control civil society, silence dissent, and seize 
absolute power.
    Ms. Yentel, we have heard Committee Republicans and their 
witnesses attempt to villainize DGOs [sic] today because they 
do not want to say what they are really attacking, charitable 
nonprofits. What are nonprofit organizations, and what kinds of 
work do they do in local communities?
    Ms. Yentel. Thank you for the question, Congresswoman. 
Nonprofit organizations are local, transparent, accountable. 
They are predominantly small or mid-sized. About 92 percent of 
nonprofit organizations have budgets of less than $1 million, 
so they are experts at stretching every dollar for the biggest 
impact in communities. And they are predominantly in local 
communities, working with communities to identify and 
prioritize needs, and then working to meet those needs with the 
communities.
    Nonprofits step in to fill gaps that the Federal Government 
and private entities on their own cannot meet, so often, they 
partner with government to do the work that they are doing. And 
they show up in times of crisis. They provide vital disaster 
relief assistance. They staff mental health hotlines. They 
provide safety from danger. They also show up in communities to 
meet our everyday needs, from childcare to eldercare, from 
libraries to food banks to providing essential shelter. So, 
nonprofits really meet the needs of all Americans throughout 
our lives, and virtually all of us are touched by and benefit 
from nonprofit in our local community.
    Ms. Norton. Ms. Yentel, are nonprofits partisan 
organizations, as the Majority has tried to claim today?
    Ms. Yentel. No. Nonprofit organizations are nonpartisan, 
both by law and in practice.
    Ms. Norton. These attempts by the Administration to make it 
clear that they do not want nonprofits to provide expert 
services that protect the local needs and goals of our 
communities, just as they do not want a government with a 
qualified nonpartisan merit-based Federal workforce. Instead, 
the Administration wants a patronized system with services 
provided only by and for those who share their political views. 
Trump's attacks on nonprofits come while his allies in Congress 
cut government services that support the most vulnerable in our 
society.
    Ms. Yentel, you have referred to nonprofits as America's 
backbone.
    Ms. Yentel. Yes.
    Ms. Norton. How do nonprofit organizations fill gaps in 
government services to meet local needs?
    Ms. Yentel. Well, nonprofit organizations show up to meet 
local needs in many ways. And the Federal Government, of course 
Congress, appropriates funding, and some, not all, but some 
nonprofit organizations apply for, through very rigorous 
processes, to receive Federal funding, and if they are found to 
be eligible, and if they are found to be able to meet the 
rigorous oversight and accountability requirements to receive 
those funds, they do. And then they put those dollars to good 
work in local communities, meeting a whole spectrum of needs 
that are identified by the community.
    But it is important to know, too, that nonprofits earn 
these funds from the Federal Government through the work that 
they do and also have a diversified revenue source. So, about 
27 percent of nonprofits receive Federal funding, earn Federal 
funding for the work that they do. Those nonprofits and the 
nonprofits that do not, receive their funding from a variety of 
sources, all of them dedicated to meeting local needs and 
working with the community to do so.
    Ms. Greene. The gentlelady's time has expired.
    I now recognize Mr. Cloud from Texas.
    Mr. Cloud. Thank you, Chairwoman.
    And I think it is important at the outset to kind of level 
set on the language being used because there seems to be an 
intentional attempt at creating a smokescreen about what we are 
talking about today in order to confuse people. Indeed, the 
Ranking Member tried to equate private donations going to 
conservative organizations with taxpayer dollars going to 
leftist organizations, as if that was the same thing. And even 
as you talk about charitable NGOs, we are all for charitable 
NGOs, and a lot of what you are saying is true about the vast 
majority of NGOs. But there are 120,000 of them, as you 
mentioned, and not all of them are that wonderful.
    And to the point, Republicans historically, decades over 
decades, have far outpaced Democrats in their charitable 
giving. As a matter of fact, scripture gives a definition of 
what charity is. Each of you should give exactly what you have 
decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under 
compulsion. God loves a cheerful giver. We are all about 
charity, but charity is not given at the strong-arm mandate of 
the Federal Government requiring taxpayers. That is not 
charity. That is taxes. That is a completely different thing.
    And, so, what we are going after today is taxpayer dollars 
going to NGOs that are doing bad work. Indeed, so many of these 
organizations do have a high percentage--I appreciate what you 
said, Mr. Walter. You call them basically government 
organizations. I have thought of them, in a sense, as quasi-
government organizations. Many of these have been stood up in a 
sense because it adds one more layer away from accountability 
on the taxpayer dollars.
    For example, we had Secretary Mayorkas coming here claiming 
plausible deniability on much of the stuff that was happening 
at our border. Why? Because the dollars go to an NGO who is 
doing the work, and so if they are giving out Sodexo cards to 
illegal immigrants to incentivize them coming into the United 
States, you know, ``I do not know anything about that. It is an 
NGO doing that.'' And then when we send that through the U.N. 
as another kind of filter away from accountability, it muddies 
the waters even more. And so, as the Department of Government 
Efficiency and the DOGE Subcommittee here, we are working to 
bring transparency to this process.
    One of the things I wanted to mention was Endeavors. 
Endeavors was stood up as part of this illegal immigration 
scheme and this entire industry that was created. Endeavors, I 
think, approximately had maybe a $40 million operating budget. 
And you had a gentleman by the name of Lorenzen-Strait, who was 
on the Biden transition committee, who suddenly found himself 
on the Endeavors board. And normally, when a government puts 
out--you know, so they put out a request for proposal, and then 
you are supposed to get multiple sources. Here, the government 
did not even put out a request for proposal. He came and 
presented a proposal and got a $530 million contract from the 
Federal Government, followed by an $87 million contract, so 90 
percent or more of the income was coming from the Federal 
Government. To me, this ceases to be an NGO. Mr. Walter, you 
spoke to that. Could you narrow down what we are talking about 
here when we talk about these NGOs? How many are there that are 
like this, you know, where much of their income is from 
taxpayer dollars?
    Mr. Walter. Shockingly, there are at least 35,000 NGOs that 
receive most of their money from government. And thank you, by 
the way, for mentioning that, yes, the Ranking Member attacked 
a charity that supports my organization. So, I do not 
understand why Ms. Yentel did not upbraid her for that.
    Mr. Cloud. Well, one of the things that DOGE is uncovering, 
it is shocking that this is--you would think that this would be 
an issue across the line, that you have a lack of transparency 
on taxpayer dollars, but it would seem that many on the left 
are content with the fact that this is a feature of the system, 
not a bug of the system. We are working to get that out.
    Mr. Krikorian, I wanted to see if you could bring light as 
to how this NGO apparatus helped enable cartels to profit and 
also helped to incentivize illegal immigration into our 
country.
    Mr. Krikorian. What the nonprofits did, and the United 
Nations, again, funded in part by the U.S. Government, was make 
it possible for people to move through because these are people 
without--do not have a lot of money anyway. And so, by 
providing them cash, literally envelopes of cash sometimes, as 
well as cash cards, food, supplies, et cetera, they made it 
possible for people to move. And who were the smugglers making 
money off of this? Many of them were actually drug smuggling 
organizations who either just collected a toll or, in some 
cases, as we saw in Colombia, were integrally part of the 
smuggling operation.
    So, this was--they were clearly working with these cartel 
and smuggling organizations, which were enriched by this flow 
of illegal immigration.
    Ms. Greene. The gentleman's time has expired.
    I now recognize Mr. Lynch from Massachusetts for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Lynch. Thank you, Madam Chair and the Ranking Member. I 
would also like to thank the witnesses for their willingness to 
come before the Committee and help us with our work.
    Madam Chair, I just want to describe a couple of documents 
that I am going to ask to have submitted into the record by 
unanimous consent. One is entitled--it is a New York Times 
article dated March 16. The title is, ``Investigators See No 
Criminality by EPA Officials in the Case of Biden-Era Grants.''
    Ms. Greene. Without objection, so ordered.
    Mr. Lynch. I am still going to describe it. Thank you. And 
the subhead says, ``A contentious investigation that questioned 
the legality of EPA grants has found very little to even 
suggest that government employees violated the law.''
    The second is a Washington Post article entitled, ``Trump's 
False Claims That Stacey Adams Headed a Group That Got $1.9 
Billion.''
    Ms. Greene. Without objection, so ordered.
    Mr. Lynch. Thank you so much, Madam Chair.
    And I will sum up by saying that that allegation got four 
Pinocchios. All right.
    So, Ms. Yentel, President Trump, Elon Musk, and DOGE have 
decimated essential services, lifeline programs, and services 
that millions of Americans rely on for food, for affordable 
housing, and for healthcare. Just yesterday, Ranking Member 
Rosa DeLauro of Connecticut of the House Appropriations 
Committee reported detailed information indicating that the 
Trump Administration is freezing at least $425 billion in 
Federal funding, that Congress had already approved, for 
communities in Democratic and Republican districts nationwide 
for critical services and programs that serve all Americans.
    Some of the funding that has been frozen or terminated by 
the Trump Administration includes $3.8 billion frozen for 
justice programs, including grants that support community 
policing, cops programs; victim services, including the 
Violence Against Women programs that operate nationally; also, 
$770 million terminated for NIH grants that support 
Alzheimer's, cancer, diabetes, and women's health research. He 
also terminated $1 billion for states to support substance 
abuse treatment and mental health services.
    And last--this is not last but the last on my list--$6.1 
billion frozen or terminated to support cutting-edge scientific 
and biomedical research at higher education institutions. One 
of those programs is run by Professor Joan Brugge. She has a 
research team at Harvard University. She is working on early 
detection protocols for ovarian cancer. One of the tough things 
about ovarian cancer and why it is so deadly is that there are 
no early detection methods. So, Joan Brugge actually is working 
on identifying precursors that allow early detection of ovarian 
cancer, which affects about 20,000 women every single year.
    So, when we think about this reconciliation bill and the 
rescissions that are going on here for funding for a lot of 
these not-for-profits and charitable institutions, what is the 
impact of that on those individual organizations and the work 
that they do?
    Ms. Yentel. Thank you, Congressman. All of these cuts, 
these arbitrary and often unlawful, illegal cuts to 
congressionally appropriated funding are doing real harm to 
your constituents, to the constituents of everybody on this 
Committee, and throughout Congress.
    And, if I could, just for a moment to say in response to 
what the previous Congressman raised, he is absolutely right 
that nonprofit organizations enjoy strong bipartisan support. 
And there are many Republican champions for nonprofits. I know 
there are Republicans on this Committee and throughout Congress 
that serve on boards of nonprofits, that volunteer their hours 
for nonprofits. That is exactly right. And this is not a smoke 
screen. This is who nonprofits are. And the work that they do 
is essential. And when this Federal funding is cut that 
nonprofits use to meet local community needs, it harms 
Americans.
    You mentioned the cuts to justice spending. That means 
organizations that are working to prevent crime are having 
their budgets slashed. We are seeing nonprofit health clinics 
have to shut their doors. We are seeing food banks who are 
already----
    Ms. Greene. The gentleman's time has expired.
    I now recognize Mr. Fallon from Texas for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Fallon. Thank you, Madam Chair. I also want to 
recognize that we have the Chairman of DOGE Texas, Giovanni 
Capriglione, is with us today.
    Ms. Yentel, you are currently the--I want to get this 
right--the CEO of the National Council of Nonprofits. Am I 
right?
    Ms. Yentel. Yes, that is right.
    Mr. Fallon. OK. And you were former president of the 
National Low Income Housing Coalition?
    Ms. Yentel. Correct.
    Mr. Fallon. And your current job is the CEO of the National 
Council of Nonprofits. Are you familiar with the nonprofit that 
has been mentioned here up on the dais, the Power Forward 
Communities?
    Ms. Yentel. I am.
    Mr. Fallon. You have, OK.
    Ms. Yentel. Yes.
    Mr. Fallon. And that five organizations led the Power 
Forward. And one of them was--were you familiar with Rewiring 
America?
    Ms. Yentel. Yes.
    Mr. Fallon. And do you know that Stacey Abrams was their 
counsel, lead counsel?
    Ms. Yentel. I believe she was an advisor, yes.
    Mr. Fallon. Well, I just have it right here. It says that 
she was, this is from their press release, she was their senior 
counsel, OK?
    Ms. Yentel. OK.
    Mr. Fallon. Stacey Abrams ran for Governor of Georgia, what 
party? Do you know? Are you aware?
    Ms. Yentel. Yes, she is a Democrat.
    Mr. Fallon. Democrat, OK. And in 2022, she was also the 
Democratic candidate for Governor of Georgia?
    Ms. Yentel. I think that
    Mr. Fallon. OK.
    Ms. Yentel. I am sure it is true if you are saying it.
    Mr. Fallon. And she worked with, as we just mentioned, 
Rewiring America in 2023. Power Forward had a balance of--do 
you know what the balance was in 2023? It was mentioned up here 
earlier.
    Ms. Yentel. No.
    Mr. Fallon. It was $100. And then, of course we know in 
2020, are you also aware of Stacey Abrams' campaigned for Joe 
Biden for President?
    Ms. Yentel. If you say so.
    Mr. Fallon. Yes, and she is a Democrat. So, Ms. Yentel, you 
are----
    Mr. Lynch. Would the gentleman yield?
    Mr. Fallon. No, I do not have enough time. I would if you 
want----
    Mr. Lynch. All right.
    Mr. Fallon [continuing]. To give me an extra minute.
    Mr. Lynch. Thank you, my friend.
    Mr. Fallon. I would love to.
    Mr. Lynch. OK. OK.
    Mr. Fallon. Ms. Yentel, CEO of the National Council of 
Nonprofits.
    Ms. Yentel. Yes.
    Mr. Fallon. How much did Joe Biden, his Administration, 
give--Stacey Abrams campaigned for Joe Biden. How much did they 
give to Power Forward?
    Ms. Yentel. So, I am so glad to have a chance to address 
the egregious----
    Mr. Fallon. Do you know how much it was?
    Ms. Yentel [continuing]. Egregious mischaracterizations.
    Mr. Fallon. OK. Was it $2 billion?
    Ms. Yentel. I do not know the number offhand.
    Mr. Fallon. OK. It was $2 billion. OK. That is quite a bump 
from a C note to $2 billion. How did the Biden Administration 
justify this gift? Do you know?
    Ms. Yentel. So, what happened----
    Mr. Fallon. Why did they give them the money?
    Ms. Yentel. Thank you. So, many of these organizations----
    Mr. Fallon. Well, ma'am, do you know how--I do not have the 
time.
    Ms. Yentel [continuing]. That received funding----
    Mr. Fallon. OK. You do not know?
    Ms. Yentel. No, I would love to answer the question.
    Mr. Fallon. Was it for----
    Ms. Yentel. May I?
    Mr. Fallon. No. Well, I am trying to help you because I do 
not have enough time. Green Energy Grants?
    Ms. Yentel. May I answer the question, sir?
    Mr. Fallon. You got 10 seconds. Could you answer the 
question? Do you know what it was for?
    Ms. Yentel. These were coalitions of longstanding 
organizations.
    Mr. Fallon. OK. So, you are not going to answer the 
question. It was for Green Energy Grants. Once Stacey Abrams 
got that money, it just so happens that two other nonprofits 
that she founded, Fair Count, have you ever heard of that one?
    Ms. Yentel. So, I am here to support----
    Mr. Fallon. Yes, yes.
    Ms. Yentel [continuing]. The work of----
    Mr. Fallon. Do you know what Fair Count is or not?
    Ms. Yentel [continuing]. Nonprofit organizations----
    Mr. Fallon. OK. You do not know.
    Ms. Yentel [continuing]. And to oppose efforts----
    Mr. Fallon. So, no. Madam Chair, I----
    Ms. Yentel [continuing]. To target organizations----
    Mr. Fallon. Madam Chair, I reclaim my time.
    Ms. Yentel [continuing]. With views separate----
    Mr. Fallon. Madam Chair?
    Ms. Yentel [continuing]. From the Administration.
    Mr. Fallon. Please freeze the time. You are here to testify 
and answer questions, and you will not answer the questions. 
You do not know what Fair Count is. I asked the question, do 
you know or not?
    Ms. Yentel. No.
    Mr. Fallon. Have you ever heard of it? You have never heard 
of it. OK. It is a voter mobilization group for Black voters. 
That has nothing whatsoever to do with Green energy. And do you 
know, it just so happens, it is a mystery of the universe, it 
is a coincidence, that the president of that organization is a 
gal named--let us see where her name is. Her name is Jeanine 
McLean. Her middle name is Abrams because that is her maiden 
name. She is Stacey Abrams' sister. It is a miracle. You want 
to talk about incestuous. I mean, the Tides Center also was 
running an organization called Southern Economic Advancement 
Project. They got money as well, and they fund a lot of Hamas 
protest groups across the country.
    So, this is incestuous, Madam Chair. It is back-dealing 
money laundering from nonprofits. Everyone up on this dais 
supports true charitable nonprofits, not political nonprofits, 
or basically government organizations, because it is funneling 
money into the pockets of democratic activists, nothing more. 
Case in point, Ms. Yentel, what is your total annual 
compensation?
    Ms. Yentel. I do not see how that is relevant. But if you 
are interested, it is public information, which is----
    Mr. Fallon. Well----
    Ms. Yentel [continuing]. Evidence of the accountability and 
transparency that nonprofits adhere to.
    Mr. Fallon. Yes, your predecessor made $583,000. I suspect 
you get something similar.
    Ms. Yentel. I do not.
    Mr. Fallon. You do not. Do you want to share?
    Ms. Yentel. That is not my salary.
    Mr. Fallon. OK. But that was what----
    Ms. Yentel. You can Google it.
    Mr. Fallon [continuing]. Your predecessor was because, as 
you said----
    Ms. Yentel. It is public information.
    Mr. Fallon. it is publicly----
    Ms. Yentel. Yes.
    Mr. Fallon [continuing]. Available information.
    Ms. Yentel. Yes.
    Mr. Fallon. When you were the president of the, ironically, 
National Low Income Housing Coalition, what was your annual 
compensation?
    Ms. Yentel. That is not quite right, but would you like 
to----
    Mr. Fallon. It was $399,000.
    Ms. Yentel. Would you like me to speak to executive 
salaries at nonprofits?
    Mr. Fallon. It was $399,000, was it not?
    Ms. Yentel. Not quite, no.
    Mr. Fallon. It was not? That is what it says. You are under 
oath.
    Ms. Yentel. I see that it says that. That was not my 
salary. Thank you.
    Mr. Fallon. OK, so, all right. Well, we will check that 
out.
    Ms. Yentel. Please. Do.
    Mr. Fallon. Madam Chair, I yield back.
    Ms. Greene. I now recognize Mr. Garcia from California.
    Mr. Garcia. Thank you, Madam Chair.
    We are obviously here for another hearing which has 
literally nothing to do with government efficiency. This 
Committee, of course, has talked about fencing, we have gone 
after foreign aid, and now we are going after community 
nonprofits, which actually help and support people. And our 
Committee is doing all of this without ever once getting 
testimony from Elon Musk, the head of DOGE, of which, of 
course, this Committee is now named from and, of course, who is 
now apparently leaving the White House as well.
    Now, every Democrat on this Subcommittee voted to subpoena 
Elon Musk to come here and testify and be accountable to 
Congress, but that was blocked by our Republican colleagues, 
which, of course, in and of itself is irresponsible and 
outrageous. And you would think the Republicans on this 
Committee would want Elon Musk to testify just as much as we 
do.
    Now, all our Republican colleagues might also want to ask 
Elon Musk about this message, which he actually just posted 
yesterday. Now, I am going to read this message Elon Musk 
posted. It says, ``I'm sorry, but I just can't stand it 
anymore. This massive, outrageous, pork-filled congressional 
spending bill is a disgusting abomination.'' And I will 
emphasize, ``Shame on those who voted for it. You know you did 
wrong. You know it.''
    Now, this was actually just yesterday he actually posted 
this, which is pretty rough if you ask me. And on top of that, 
I would have printed it out, but just 20 minutes ago, he posted 
another message that says, ``Call your Senator, call your 
Congressman. Bankrupting America is not OK. Kill the bill.''
    And, of course, we know the only people who voted for this 
bill are actually House Republicans, including every Republican 
in this room. All these Republicans here on this Committee, 
they all voted for this bill that now Elon Musk is saying 
should be killed and is saying is awful. I actually agree with 
Elon Musk on this. It takes healthcare away from 13 million 
Americans. It cuts food for veterans and seniors, all to 
finance, of course, huge tax breaks for the wealthy.
    Now, it is also interesting because Chairwoman Greene, I 
understand, now regrets voting for this bill, as she mentioned 
yesterday. Is that correct, Chairwoman Greene?
    Ms. Greene. Are you yielding me time?
    Mr. Garcia. No, I am just asking if you are--I think you 
say now you regret voting for the bill. Is that correct?
    Ms. Greene. The bill actually destroys what you guys voted 
for, for the past 4 years, and I am proud to have voted for 
that bill to fund border security----
    Mr. Garcia. Actually, actually, Chairwoman Greene.
    Ms. Greene [continuing]. To deport all these illegals----
    Mr. Garcia. Yesterday----
    Ms. Greene [continuing]. You guys let in the country.
    Mr. Garcia. Thank you, Chairwoman. Actually, Chairwoman, 
yesterday, you actually said that you regret actually voting 
for the bill. You posted after Elon's tweet that you did not 
know certain provisions were in it, and that you would have 
voted no if you had known. So, obviously, you did not do a 
thorough review of the bill.
    And I am not surprised, of course, that Republicans in this 
Congress are now going back and forth on the bill. They voted 
for the bill. Now they want to oppose it. We do not know what 
to actually believe. And for instance, this is the same thing 
that is happening with other big programs like Social Security, 
which we know Elon Musk and DOGE have actually talked and 
attacked constantly over and over again. We know how badly 
already customer service has been hurt. People are waiting in 
long lines at Social Security offices, all because of these 
DOGE efforts.
    Now, again, Chairwoman Greene invited to testify today one 
of our witnesses, and I think it is important to note this. Mr. 
Turner, you are one of our witnesses today, an expert on 
economics and a bunch of other things.
    Mr. Turner. I am not an economist.
    Mr. Garcia. Mr. Turner, you were invited to testify as an 
expert on government spending. This is your post. Is this 
correct? Did you post this, sir?
    Mr. Turner. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Garcia. OK. You called Social Security a Ponzi scheme--
--
    Mr. Turner. A hundred percent.
    Mr. Garcia [continuing]. Which we know Elon Musk has also 
done. I am glad you admitted it. ``Social Security is a 
government-sponsored Ponzi scheme,'' as you said. Now, I----
    Mr. Turner. What about the second part, though, sir? ``I 
should be able to keep 100 percent of my----
    Mr. Garcia. Sure, you can read the whole thing.
    Mr. Turner [continuing]. Money and not watch----
    Mr. Garcia. It is right up here.
    Mr. Turner [continuing]. Government waste it----
    Mr. Garcia. Thank you, sir. This is my time, sir.
    Mr. Turner [continuing]. Giving $9 billion----
    Mr. Garcia. Thank you, sir. My time.
    Mr. Turner [continuing]. Giving $9 billion----
    Mr. Garcia. Sir, reclaiming my time.
    Mr. Turner [continuing]. To climate groups.''
    Mr. Garcia. Madam Chairwoman. Thank you. Thank you, sir. A 
Ponzi scheme. And so, I think it is interesting, of course, 
that as one of our Republican witnesses is calling Social 
Security a Ponzi scheme, and that is the person that we should 
be taking advice from here today. Without Social Security, 22 
million people would be pushed into poverty. That includes over 
16 million seniors and nearly 1 million children. And in fact, 
Elon Musk has also said and agreed with you, sir, that this is 
a Ponzi scheme. I think it is ironic that you are one of our 
witnesses talking about efficiency when you want to attack the 
single best program that we have to support people, not just 
out of poverty, but across this country to uplift them, to 
ensure they can afford a decent life.
    We, on this Committee, need to work every single day, not 
just to protect Social Security, but to hold Republicans 
accountable for attacking Medicare, Medicaid, for attacking 
Social Security and the programs that we all depend on.
    With that, I yield back. Thank you.
    Ms. Greene. The gentleman yields.
    I now recognize Mr. Timmons from South Carolina.
    Mr. Timmons. Thank you, Madam Chair. It is hard to remember 
why we are here, given all the conversations we are having. But 
we are here because we have $37 trillion in debt, and we run a 
$1.8 trillion annual deficit. And we are here to seek out 
waste, fraud, and abuse, deliver on government efficiency, and 
try to right the fiscal ship of this country so we can have a 
country for another generation or two.
    So, we are doing great work. We had a hearing a couple 
weeks ago with NPR and PBS, and we made clear to the American 
people that those two entities were not deserving of taxpayer 
dollars because they were not doing their job. They were wildly 
biased. They were wildly biased. And because of that, they do 
not deserve taxpayer funds. So, we are going to vote next week 
to stop giving them money.
    And we are going along the same lines with this hearing 
because the EPA handed out $27 billion in the last year of the 
Biden Administration. And it was done really because they 
thought they were going to lose the election, and they wanted 
to get it out as quickly as possible. Biden appointees in the 
EPA specifically said that the people that were getting the 
money were not deserving of that money, and there were a lot of 
concerns there.
    Obviously, we have this conversation about one of the most 
egregious, which is Power Forward Communities. We keep talking 
about it. And Madam Chair, I would like to enter their 990 in 
for the record.
    Ms. Greene. Without objection, so ordered.
    Mr. Timmons. So, this is from 2023. This is a less than a 
year-old entity. And as we have talked again and again, they 
had $100 in their account. And then the EPA, under the 
Greenhouse Gas Reduction Fund, gave them $2 billion. Well, the 
funny thing is, is they did not give it all to them. They 
wanted to give it all, but the EPA said no. And so, now we are 
in this lawsuit where Citibank has the vast majority of it, and 
we are going to get it back. And that is why we are here. We 
are going to pass legislation. This is the hearing to show why 
this is ridiculous. This is, I would just say, waste. Maybe you 
would call it fraud. I do not know. It is definitely an abuse. 
So, this money is coming back. And this is the hearing to then 
warrant the rescission. And we are going to have a vote in a 
couple of weeks, and that is what we are doing and that is why 
we are here because we cannot spend money on ridiculous 
policies.
    Mr. Turner, do you agree with me? Are we moving in the 
right direction here?
    Mr. Turner. Yes. And it is critical that we move in this 
direction. Thank you, sir.
    Mr. Timmons. And this is just for the EPA. We have not even 
gotten into the border security nonsense. I mean, the invasion 
that was funded by taxpayer dollars over the last 4 years. The 
Biden Administration intentionally and systematically 
incentivized people to come into this country without knowing 
any idea who they were. And the best part is they are making 
Americans get these ridiculous vaccines, which we are going to 
talk about in a couple of weeks. But they do not have any tests 
for whether the people, the 20 million people they brought in 
this country, are vaccinated. The irony is just incredible.
    So, back to the issue at hand. Power Forward Communities 
should not have $2 billion. Mr. Walter, do you agree that it is 
an egregious waste of taxpayer dollars to give $2 billion to a 
bunch of former Obama and Biden high-level employees?
    Mr. Walter. Absolutely.
    Mr. Timmons. I will give you a better one. Do you think 
that they would have gotten this money if they were not the 
former HUD Secretary, the former OMB Director, the Special 
Assistant to Obama, the former Fannie Mae head for Obama? Do 
you think that if we just got a random group of Americans and 
said, hey, you want to go, you know, give clean energy 
appliances to reduce the carbon footprint of our country to a 
bunch of poor people? Do you want to go do that? Do you want to 
apply, and we will give you $2 billion? Mr. Walter, is there 
any world in which the EPA would have given a random group of 
people $2 billion?
    Mr. Walter. Not at all, and that is a critical part of the 
NGO sector in addition to the heroes who actually do charitable 
work.
    Mr. Timmons. I will give you one better. Mr. Turner, should 
we be giving billions of dollars to 501(c)(3)s that have zero 
other income, 35,000 501(c)(3)s have zero other income. They 
are all government income. Should we do that?
    Mr. Turner. No, sir. And if I may, the egregious thing here 
is that they are bypassing the Congress. If you want to give 
Stacey Abrams----
    Mr. Timmons. There is no transparency.
    Mr. Turner [continuing]. Two billion dollars, appropriate 
it. But they are using this process to bypass Congress because 
no one would put their name on a bill to give Stacey Abrams $2 
billion.
    Mr. Timmons. I could not agree with you more. And I am 
going to end with this. Dozens, dozens of 501(c)(3)s, tax-
exempt organizations, organizations that we feel are pursuing 
some benevolent goal to improve the lives of Americans, dozens 
of these 501(c)(3)s, their CEOs make more than $10 million a 
year in salary. We have got to change this. I would put that in 
the waste, the fraud, and the abuse category, and we need to 
pass a law to make that better.
    Thank you, Madam Chair. I yield back.
    Ms. Greene. Thank you.
    I now recognize Ms. Crockett from Texas.
    Ms. Crockett. Thank you so much, Madam Chair.
    It is interesting that we are talking about bypassing 
Congress. It seems like that is all that has happened, 
actually, this Congress. In fact, it is why we have had to 
spend so much time in courts. And thank God that we at least 
have one branch of government that has decided not to abdicate 
their duties and has decided that there are things such as, you 
know, impoundment. And so, when Congress does make a decision 
or does sign something into law or has been signed into law by 
a President, that you cannot just bring in your good little 
friend who helped you get elected to the tune of $300 million 
and say, hey, guy, you get to do whatever you want to, despite 
what these duly elected people have done.
    But I digress. But I am going to get back to Elon because 
Elon is looming over every single DOGE hearing. You know why? 
Because that is supposedly what Elon was heading up. But now 
they do not want to talk about Elon because Elon now is a 
little upset. There is a family spat that is obviously going 
on, and it is going to play out, it seems like, all over 
Twitter.
    But nevertheless, let us talk about some of the things that 
we should be talking about. And you know what? Every time I 
come in here, I really do wonder, what is the point? Like why 
are we here? Because it does not seem like we are doing 
efficiency, right? Like have we seen Elon? No. Have we seen 
anybody that works for DOGE? No. But we are in the DOGE 
Subcommittee, and we are talking to everybody but the DOGE 
people.
    So, to hear the comments about Stacey Abrams, it really got 
me going. And a lot of times, when we come into this hearing 
room, it is all about politics. And it made me think that there 
was an issue most likely with Stacey because someone actually 
brought up the fact that Stacey has run for Governor a couple 
of times, and it seems like there is a gubernatorial race that 
is coming up in Georgia, and nobody knows whether or not Stacey 
is going to run. So, why not muddy the water if we can to 
hopefully keep a strong Black woman down? But again, I digress.
    So, let us talk about the things that we could be talking 
about while we sit here in the DOGE Committee. It seems like we 
could be talking about, you know, things like efficiency or 
oversight. When announcing this hearing, the chairwoman stated 
the DOGE Subcommittee would ``continue bringing long overdue 
transparency and accountability to those who abuse tax 
dollars.'' But so far this Congress, Republicans have focused 
their oversight responsibilities on things like defunding Big 
Bird, as well as attacking, of course, trans kids because they 
are really the big threat that we have.
    We could be talking about how the Trump Administration is 
ignoring these court orders, supporting American citizens, or 
targeting Members of Congress for prosecution, or how Trump 
signed an order deregulating the cryptocurrency industry just 
as his family launched a digital currency. We could be having a 
hearing on how Trump fired members of the National Labor 
Relations Board for bringing a suit against Elon Musk or how 
the Trump Administration dismantled the Office of the Federal 
Contract Compliance while the office was investigating Tesla 
for alleged racial harassment. Or how Trump dropped lawsuits 
against numerous large companies after they donated to his 
inaugural fund. We could have a hearing on whether Trump 
violated the emoluments clause when he not only--it seemed like 
he asked for a $400 million jet from a foreign government.
    Trump has put a for-sale sign on the lawn of the White 
House and has allowed wealthy donors to dictate how the 
government operates. That is what we should be having a hearing 
about. But nope, they are here attacking nonprofits that 
deliver food to seniors and disabled folk, provide childcare 
and eldercare for working families, job training for teens, and 
shelter for the unhoused. The Republicans and their witnesses 
have accused nonprofits of being ``radical'' ``addicted to 
government money.''
    And listen, I try to find agreement where I can, so I am 
going to say that I absolutely do agree with that statement to 
a certain extent because there is a nonprofit by the name of 
The Heritage Foundation. And last time I checked The Heritage 
Foundation, they are the authors of Project 2025, and we are 
living through the hell of Project 2025 right now. And 
something tells me that that is a bit of a partisan thing 
because they said it was the conservative playbook. So, as far 
as I am concerned, I do not know why we would ever look at The 
Heritage Foundation and think that it is anything but 
``radical'' and ``addicted to government money'' potentially.
    So, Ms. Yentel, before I do that, I am going to come to you 
because I want to make sure that I get these things on record. 
I have a unanimous consent, Madam Chair. It says ``Donald Trump 
allegedly asked aides whether Elon Musk's DOGE promises were 
all bull-'' and then you know what the rest of it is. Unanimous 
consent?
    Ms. Greene. Without objection.
    Ms. Crockett. Thank you so much. I have another one from 
CBS News. ``Despite Trump's promised cuts, U.S. spent more than 
$200 billion more in the first 100 days than last year.''
    Ms. Greene. Without objection.
    Ms. Crockett. If some reason we focused on some efficiency, 
we may have more money to work toward this deficit that some of 
my colleagues say that they are concerned about. And I guess, 
Ms. Yentel, I am going to run out of time because if we were 
going to focus on this deficit, then maybe you would not have 
your own friends coming out and talking about how we are going 
to have to lift the debt ceiling $5 trillion because how else 
can we pay for the billionaires to keep more money in their 
pockets?
    Thank you, and I will yield.
    Ms. Greene. The gentlelady yields.
    And for the record, The Heritage Foundation receives no 
Federal funding.
    I now recognize Mr. Burchett from Tennessee.
    Mr. Burchett. Thank you, Chairlady.
    I think the irony of all ironies here is that our friends 
across the aisle keep bringing up Elon Musk and what a great 
person he is, and I guess about a week ago they were out to 
kill him, so this is a backward day, as always.
    Mr. Krikorian, Alejandro Mayorkas served as the United 
States' border czar for 4 years. What did he do before his 
appointment?
    Mr. Krikorian. He is an attorney, and he was on the board 
of, among other things, HIAS, which is the Hebrew Immigrant Aid 
Society, which is one of the nonprofit groups that resettles 
refugees and was also involved in this movement of illegal 
immigrants up through Latin America.
    Mr. Burchett. OK. Do you think it is a good thing that 
Mayorkas served at an NGO whose goal was mass migrant 
resettlement in the U.S.?
    Mr. Krikorian. Well, I disagree with the goal, obviously, 
but no, I think it was a problem because there was a kind of, 
you know, conflict of interest there. I mean, he was 
essentially implementing a government policy and having these 
nonprofit groups--like HIAS, but many others--sort of as 
proxies to promote the policies that the administration was 
trying to implement.
    Mr. Burchett. Well, in 2021 alone, this organization 
received over $40.9 million in grants from the Department of 
Health and Human Services, State, and Homeland Security. Don't 
you think that is a direct conflict of interest?
    Mr. Krikorian. Yes, in the sense that some of that was 
spent on migration causes, yes, I think so. And that probably 
was at least part of the reason that the House impeached 
Secretary Mayorkas.
    Mr. Burchett. I guess it is a little bit like a Congressman 
becoming a lobbyist.
    Mr. Krikorian. Kind of, I guess.
    Mr. Burchett. A whole lot of----
    Mr. Krikorian. Nothing personal against anybody here.
    Mr. Burchett. That is all right. Well, none of us better be 
lobbyists or we need to go to jail.
    At what point do you believe humanitarian aid and 
assistance becomes material support for illegal activity?
    Mr. Krikorian. I am not sure I would be able to draw, kind 
of, a specific line and say here is where it is. But at this 
scale, there is simply no way that these organizations did not 
see themselves as part of a network to subvert U.S. immigration 
law. You know, the occasional provision of, you know, water to 
somebody who is in real distress is one thing. Setting up a 
network, essentially a kind of aid station network----
    Mr. Burchett. A pipeline so to speak?
    Mr. Krikorian [continuing]. To South--a pipeline from South 
America to the border is not something that you--it is not 
comparable in any way. It is not just different in scale. It is 
different in kind.
    Mr. Burchett. Yes. Myself and the Chairlady, she is my 
cosponsor on a bill to literally defund the Taliban. As it 
turns out, we are sending them close to $40 million a week. I 
have a State Department document that was a classified 
document. It has become unclassified that we have given them 
close to $5 billion with a B. Although that is not big numbers 
here, I can assure you in east Tennessee, that is a whole heck 
of a lot of money.
    Would you have any idea how many--any of you all have any 
idea how many NGOs that we believe could be working out of 
Afghanistan right now? Anybody have a shot in the dark?
    Mr. Krikorian. No, I have no idea, I am afraid, sorry.
    Mr. Burchett. Would you believe close to 1,000? 1,000.
    Mr. Krikorian. Yes.
    Mr. Burchett. And yet, Congress in its infinite wisdom has 
taken almost, and we are working on 2 years now, to get this 
bill out and get it to the Senate and get them to pass it. To 
me, it is criminal. It is criminal what these organizations are 
doing. $40 million a week to the Taliban. They throw gay folks 
off of buildings. They rape women and children, and then they 
stone the women after, somehow, it is their fault. I mean, 
these are godless creatures and we are funding them with our 
tax dollars. And Americans, I believe, are getting rich off of 
it. I believe that some of the money is flowing back here 
through some of these NGOs, and I would sure like to see that 
paper trail solidified in my mind so I could point to it. And 
if the Member of Congress, again, they need to be led out of 
here in handcuffs.
    Would any of you like to comment on any of that, kind of 
a----
    Ms. Yentel. I would like to say, sir, that nonprofit 
organizations, if they are working in Afghanistan, it is to 
meet the tremendous humanitarian needs that exist----
    Mr. Burchett. I can assure you that, ma'am, yes, but----
    Ms. Yentel. I think conflating nonprofits with the Taliban 
is deeply dangerous and reckless.
    Mr. Burchett. Well, actually, ma'am, they actually take a 
cutoff of everything that goes through there just like the mob 
would. There are three major banks, and they get their money 
off, and it has been documented by government officials.
    And I have run out of time. Chairlady, I yield nothing back 
to you.
    Ms. Greene. Thank you, Mr. Burchett. Honored to be a co-
sponsor of your Defund the Taliban bill.
    I now recognize Mr. Moskowitz from Florida for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Moskowitz. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman, for allowing me 
to waive on to today's Committee under the rules of the 
Oversight Committee. I appreciate it as I tried to waive on to 
a previous meeting and was barred, so I do appreciate you 
allowing me to attend today.
    You know, I was the first Democrat member to join the DOGE 
Caucus in Congress. Took a lot of crap for it, by the way. And 
I did it for the right reason because I thought government can 
get smaller, government can save money, and government can be 
more efficient. That poll is in the 1980's. Most Americans know 
that.
    And I thought we were really interested in the E part of 
DOGE, efficiency, OK? But ask yourself, what have we made more 
efficient in the 6 months that DOGE has been around? Yes, there 
are things we have found that should not exist, but name a 
department, name a system, name a service that this Committee 
or the caucus or Elon has made more efficient. They said they 
were going to find $1 trillion. They fell 85 percent short.
    Look, government is inefficient, but the DOGE Caucus and 
process was like, hold my beer, let me show you what 
inefficiency really looks like, OK? The DOGE Caucus has not met 
in months. It had two meetings. Congress was not involved at 
all in the process in the executive branch. Elon's gone, the 
effort is dead, buried. Rigor mortis is setting in. I feel 
sorry, ill, talking of the dead. I should not do that.
    But I mean, seriously, the Newark Airport, that is the key 
example for the American people. You want to talk about how did 
we make government more efficient? We did not. We made 
government the Newark Airport. And by the way, now that the 
national divorce is happening with Elon Musk--and I am a child 
of divorce, OK? I mean, who is going to get Big Balls? I am 
worried about him in the divorce. The children always get 
caught in the middle, right? You know, if he is out there, I 
just want him to know we are rooting for him.
    Certainly, we have not made FEMA more efficient. The 
Administrator apparently does not know there is a hurricane 
season. Wait till he finds out there are five categories. We 
are going to blow his mind. Nothing has been made more 
efficient by DOGE. No new technology in any of these 
departments, no lower costs, has not happened, right? We 
promised to tackle the national deficit and debt. They have not 
done that. They have made it worse by the big, bloated 
abomination bill, OK? I mean, Elon has turned on them, but he 
is telling the truth. The bill will add to the deficit, and it 
will add to the debt.
    And so, listen, I ask my colleagues, point to me one thing 
we have made more efficient. If you want to drop the E from 
DOGE because we have not done efficiency, that is fine. We can 
rename it. We can always rebrand. They are great at that. But 
nothing has been made more efficient.
    Here are the wins for congressional Republicans. You ready? 
They are going to do a $9 billion rescission bill, OK, which 
they are going to get rid of Elmo, which the American people 
were clamoring for, OK? But they are going to add $2.4 trillion 
to the debt, $9 billion versus $2.4 trillion. And then they 
want us to cheer for them and give them a trophy like they are 
a 5-year-old at a soccer game. Everyone gets a trophy for their 
participation, OK?
    By the way, these things I am bringing up, Republicans 
themselves, including the Chairwoman, have expressed their 
frustration that Congress has not codified anything at all. And 
so, look, it is interesting. Elon just retweeted this. ``When 
are we going to flatten the curve?'' It is fascinating.
    [Poster]
    We are using COVID graphics and COVID slogans. This is the 
debt. This is not COVID cases, OK?
    And yet my Republican colleagues have always talked about 
the debt and deficit. I went out, I bought the debt clock that 
Thomas Massie wears, $99, by the way. I do not know if that is 
a great deal, but, you know, like 2-hour battery life. He told 
me you got to, like, if you dim the screen, it will last a 
little longer. Wow, it is still going up. It does not seem like 
these DOGE cuts, right, or this rescission bill have handled 
anything with the debt or deficit.
    And so, yes, look, yes, Elon is--we love dark Elon now. Oh, 
yes, this is interesting times, right? And Republicans will 
say, oh, wait, he was a patriot. He left his companies. He was 
doing the right thing. That is what they said for 6 months. 
Now, they are saying, well, he is just mad because he is losing 
his EV credits. He did not get his Starlink thing. They got rid 
of his NASA Administrator, OK?
    Look, we have got to do this together, guys, on a 
bipartisan basis to tackle the debt. I asked the Speaker to put 
a budget commission together to get Democrats and Republicans 
on a bipartisan basis to tackle the debt, but that bill should 
die.
    Thank you, Madam Chairwoman.
    Ms. Greene. The gentleman's time has expired.
    I now recognize Mr. Burlison from Missouri.
    Mr. Burlison. Thank you, Chairwoman, and thank you to our 
witnesses for being here.
    I just want to remind people there is a huge difference 
between money that an individual voluntarily gives to a 
nonprofit or charity and the money that is forcibly taken from 
taxpayers and funneled through this town into a nonprofit or 
charity. There is a huge difference, correct, Mr. Walter?
    Mr. Walter. Absolutely.
    Mr. Burlison. Mr. Krikorian?
    Mr. Krikorian. Yes, of course.
    Mr. Burlison. Mr. Turner?
    Mr. Turner. Yes.
    Mr. Burlison. And Ms. Yentel, wouldn't you agree there is a 
huge difference?
    Ms. Yentel. There is a difference, sure.
    Mr. Burlison. OK. Thank you.
    Ms. Yentel. And there is a difference in accounting----
    Mr. Burlison. Thank you.
    Ms. Yentel [continuing]. And auditing and----
    Mr. Burlison. There is. Thank you.
    Ms. Yentel [continuing]. Transparency as well.
    Mr. Burlison. Thank you. I am going to get my time back 
here.
    Ms. Yentel. Sure.
    Mr. Burlison. It is a simple question.
    So, with that being said, the problem that it does not seem 
like anyone is recognizing is that we forcibly took money from 
taxpayers, and then these groups--then it was appropriated 
through the Biden Administration, billions, billions of 
taxpayer dollars to organizations that were stood up overnight, 
organizations that did not have a longstanding history. These 
were not nonprofits. For example, The Free Press investigation 
revealed that of the $27 billion that was granted through the 
EPA, $20 billion went out the door to eight nonprofit groups 
right after Biden lost the election. $20 billion shoved out the 
door immediately. Several of them were formed that year, since 
August of that year.
    So, Mr. Walter, did your organization--do you guys get 
billions of dollars when Republicans are in charge?
    Mr. Walter. We have never taken a penny from any level of 
government across 4 decades of existence.
    Mr. Burlison. Mr. Turner?
    Mr. Turner. Sir, if I got $2 billion from the taxpayers, I 
would be in jail right now.
    Mr. Burlison. Mr. Krikorian?
    Mr. Krikorian. We have had contracts in the past with the 
Census Bureau and the Justice Department, but nobody has given 
us $2 billion. If you know anybody who is in the market for 
that, I am--give them my phone number.
    Mr. Burlison. Yes, so, I think that--here is the point to 
the American people. When the Republicans are in charge, we are 
not doling out your money to our friends and our family. We are 
not raiding the coffers. We are not putting America into more 
debt and more debt and more debt to fund these nonprofits.
    Look, Mr. Walter, if somebody wants to give to Stacey 
Abrams' new venture or nonprofit, they can do that, right? She 
can stand up a nonprofit.
    Mr. Walter. Absolutely.
    Mr. Burlison. But the question is, Mr. Krikorian, nobody 
wants to open up their checkbook, right?
    Mr. Krikorian. I wish. Yeas, I have been working on that.
    Mr. Burlison. And that is the very reason why they come to 
this town is to convince lawmakers, their friends, their family 
member, their ally, to write a check that no one in the private 
sector would want to write, for an effort that no one really 
would want to believe in.
    Mr. Turner, is it true that the Biden senior Climate Policy 
Advisor, Jahai Weiss, directed $5 billion to Coalition for 
Green Capital?
    Mr. Turner. Yes.
    Mr. Burlison. And let us point out, she worked for the 
Coalition for Green Capital, right? She previously worked for 
them?
    Mr. Turner. Yes.
    Mr. Burlison. So, she sent money to the organization that 
she--$5 billion. Is that not blatant corruption, Mr. Turner?
    Mr. Turner. And not only that, sir, $5 billion is very 
difficult to spend. Five billion dollars is an absurd amount of 
money. We heard a Congresswoman talk about the jet that 
President Trump got. That was $400 million. This is $5 billion.
    Mr. Burlison. It is----
    Mr. Turner. It is impossible to spend $5 billion ethically.
    Mr. Burlison. Yes, to put that in context, I remember being 
in the state of Missouri, and Missourians, at one point, we 
spent, whenever I was a lawmaker, we spent $5 billion for all 
the school districts in the state of Missouri, OK? So, they 
funded every school district, the state funds. That was $5 
billion.
    How much money did the Biden Administration give 
specifically to Rewiring America initiative, where Mrs. Abrams 
was brought on as a senior counsel?
    Mr. Turner. Approximately $2 billion.
    Mr. Burlison. Two billion dollars. So, let me get this 
straight. Progressive loyalists like Abrams and other senior 
admin officials left the admin and feathered their nest on 
their way out with our taxpayer dollars, correct?
    Mr. Turner. Correct.
    Mr. Burlison. Thank you, Madam Chair. I yield back.
    Ms. Greene. The gentleman yields.
    I now recognize Ms. Pressley from Massachusetts.
    Ms. Pressley. Thank you to our witnesses for being here 
today.
    What we are witnessing from occupant Trump, his 
Administration, and Republicans writ large is not governance. 
It is a targeted, dangerous assault on the independence of our 
nonprofit organizations. We have seen these attacks take many 
forms, perhaps most visibly in my own district, the 
Massachusetts 7th, as the Administration continues its unlawful 
campaign against Harvard University. Trump has threatened to 
revoke Harvard's tax-exempt status, freeze billions in Federal 
funding for scientific research to save lives, might I add, and 
publicly vilify students and faculty, all part and parcel of 
his attacks on education.
    But let me make it plain. This is not just about Harvard, 
and it is definitely not about government efficiency, the name 
of this Subcommittee. This is about Trump and Republicans 
punishing people who disagree with them. It is about attacking 
nonprofits of all sizes that serve the vulnerable and 
marginalized and stand in the gap for our communities. It is 
about trying to intimidate every charity and nonprofit in this 
country and spark a fear that if you speak up, if you do 
something the Republicans do not like, you could be next--a 
hospital that provides abortion care, a local food pantry that 
feeds immigrants, or an advocacy group that fights for civil 
rights.
    Donald Trump is weaponizing our tax laws to attack 
nonprofits. At the same time, he is pushing for tax cuts for 
Elon Musk and billionaires.
    Ms. Yentel, can the President or executive branch legally 
revoke a nonprofit's tax-exempt status simply because it 
disagrees with that organization's lawful speech or mission?
    Ms. Yentel. They cannot. The statute is very clear that 
that is illegal.
    Ms. Pressley. Thank you. Republicans think the answer is 
yes, but that would mean every nonprofit in America is just one 
tweet away from being targeted by the Federal Government.
    I am proud that in the Massachusetts 7th, community-based 
organizations are speaking up and fighting back against 
Republican attacks, and I know they are doing it at risk of 
serious threat. Ms. Yentel, can you make plain what are the 
consequences to charities and nonprofits losing tax-exempt 
status?
    Ms. Yentel. Well, tax-exempt status is given to nonprofit 
organizations that do essential work to meet needs in their 
local communities in exchange for significant transparency and 
accountability. And if nonprofit organizations lose their tax-
exempt status, it could create significant challenges for them 
to be able to do their work related to how and where they get 
their funding, and it could cause them to have to shut down 
their work altogether.
    Ms. Pressley. Their work, which is to the betterment of us 
all.
    Ms. Yentel. Which is to meet----
    Ms. Pressley. To the collective.
    Ms. Yentel [continuing]. Global needs.
    Ms. Pressley. Our shared constituents.
    Ms. Yentel. Yes.
    Ms. Pressley. Very good. Let us put this in perspective. 
Trump is firing government workers that administer programs 
like Head Start and Social Security, while also attacking 
nonprofits that provide resources and supports to vulnerable 
populations. Trump and his Republican cult do not care about 
helping people who are struggling. Instead, they want to make 
them suffer more.
    Now, before I yield back, let me ask the Republican 
witnesses if you all think Trump is right for revoking tax-
exempt status for nonprofits for their political views, raise 
your hand then if you think The Heritage Foundation, who wrote 
Project 2025, should also lose their tax-exempt status. Show of 
hands by the logic that is being applied.
    Mr. Walter. I am not aware of any nonprofit that has had 
its status revoked.
    Ms. Pressley. Again, the question that I am posing is, 
would you please raise your hand if you think The Heritage 
Foundation, who wrote Project 2025, should also lose their tax-
exempt status? Show of hands.
    Mr. Walter. It is perfectly reasonable speech by a 
nonprofit.
    Ms. Pressley. So, none of you. So, none of you. None of 
you. The shame and the sham of it all.
    Before I yield back, Ms. Yentel, I know that you have been 
harangued intensely throughout today's proceedings. Is there 
anything that you would like to set the record straight on or 
respond to in my remaining time?
    Ms. Yentel. Thank you, Congresswoman. I would like to use 
the remaining time to remind us all, and every Member of this 
Committee, of the vital, essential work that nonprofit 
organizations do in each of your communities for your 
constituents and the work that we do to support them in that 
work. nonprofit organizations are local. They are transparent 
and accountable. They are nonpartisan by law and in practice, 
and they do essential work to meet the needs of all of your 
communities and all Americans. Thank you.
    Ms. Pressley. Thank you. I yield back.
    Ms. Greene. The gentlelady yields.
    I now recognize Mr. Gill from Texas.
    Mr. Gill. Thank you, Madam Chair, for holding this hearing.
    I would like to begin with Ms. Yentel. You have written a 
lot about anti-racism and White fragility and things like that. 
Do you believe that President Trump is a racist?
    Ms. Yentel. I do not believe that is relevant to this 
hearing.
    Mr. Gill. Do you believe that he is?
    Ms. Yentel. I am not here to discuss my personal beliefs. I 
am here to speak about the important work that nonprofits do--
--
    Mr. Gill. You have tweeted that he is a vile----
    Ms. Yentel [continuing]. Across the country.
    Mr. Gill [continuing]. Despicable racist. Do you believe 
that much of his housing policy was racist during his first 
term?
    Ms. Yentel. I am here to talk about the vital work that 
nonprofit organizations----
    Mr. Gill. So, you are not going to answer me?
    Ms. Yentel [continuing]. Do throughout our country----
    Mr. Gill. You have tweeted that----
    Ms. Yentel [continuing]. And in your district.
    Mr. Gill [continuing]. ``It's explicitly racist and deeply 
harmful.'' Is that right?
    Ms. Yentel. I do not have the tweet in front of me. I 
cannot answer.
    Mr. Gill. I have got it right here. You did tweet that. You 
tweeted that on September 25, 2020. You said, ``It's explicitly 
racist and deeply harmful.'' Do you know who President Trump's 
Secretary of Housing and Urban Development was during his first 
term?
    Ms. Yentel. Yes.
    Mr. Gill. Who is it? Who was it?
    Ms. Yentel. It was Secretary Carson.
    Mr. Gill. It was Ben Carson. Do you believe that Ben Carson 
is racist or a White supremacist?
    Ms. Yentel. With all due respect, sir, I am not here to 
talk about former HUD secretaries. I am here to talk about the 
essential work----
    Mr. Gill. You tweeted extensively about it.
    Ms. Yentel [continuing]. That nonprofits do in your 
district and throughout the country.
    Mr. Gill. OK. We can move on then if you will not answer 
the question. Are you a racist?
    Ms. Yentel. With all due respect, sir, I am here to talk 
about the essential work that nonprofits do----
    Mr. Gill. Excuse me. That is a very----
    Ms. Yentel [continuing]. Throughout the country.
    Mr. Gill [continuing]. Simple question, yes or no question. 
Are you a racist?
    Ms. Yentel. I am not a racist.
    Mr. Gill. You are not a racist. Particularly interesting 
because, according to one of your affiliate charities under 
your nonprofit umbrella, denial of racism constitutes covert 
White supremacy. Are you a covert White supremacist?
    Ms. Yentel. Sir, I am here to talk about the essential work 
that nonprofits do.
    Mr. Gill. Are you a covert White supremacist?
    Ms. Yentel. Can I talk about the work that nonprofits do in 
your district?
    Mr. Gill. No, I am asking you if you are----
    Ms. Yentel. Because I think that is----
    Mr. Gill [continuing]. A covert White supremacist, which 
according to one of your own organizations, again, denial of 
racism constitutes covert White supremacy. Would you----
    Ms. Yentel. I am sorry, what is----
    Mr. Gill [continuing]. Like to answer the question?
    Ms. Yentel. I do not know what the question is.
    Mr. Gill. So, you refuse to answer whether you are a covert 
White supremacist.
    Ms. Yentel. I am here to talk about the essential work that 
nonprofits do. If you would like to ask me a question about----
    Mr. Gill. I am utterly dumbfounded.
    Ms. Yentel [continuing]. Nonprofits----
    Mr. Gill. You are on record right now----
    Ms. Yentel [continuing]. In your district----
    Mr. Gill [continuing]. And you will not say----
    Ms. Yentel [continuing]. Or throughout the country.
    Mr. Gill [continuing]. That you are not a covert White 
supremacist?
    Ms. Yentel. I do not have a definition in front of me. I 
haven't looked at the definition. I am not going to answer a 
question about my personal views.
    Mr. Gill. That is----
    Ms. Yentel. I am here to talk about the work of----
    Mr. Gill. You are not----
    Ms. Yentel [continuing]. Nonprofit organizations.
    Mr. Gill. No, I want to give you one more chance to do 
this. Are you a covert White supremacist?
    Ms. Yentel. Why are we so off track from the----
    Mr. Gill. No, I am asking you----
    Ms. Yentel [continuing]. Topic of this hearing?
    Mr. Gill. I am asking you a very straightforward question.
    Ms. Yentel. I have heard your question. Thank you, sir.
    Mr. Gill. And you are not going to answer whether you are a 
covert White supremacist?
    Ms. Yentel. I would like to answer questions about the 
work----
    Mr. Gill. This is wildly painful.
    Ms. Yentel [continuing]. Of nonprofit organizations. Thank 
you.
    Mr. Gill. That is really, really astounding. I can answer 
very directly that I am not a covert White supremacist, and I 
imagine all of my colleagues can as well. I think you ought to 
reevaluate what you are doing in the nonprofit sector. If you 
cannot answer that in a straightforward way, that is 
astounding.
    Let me ask you another question. Do you believe that it is 
appropriate to host and promote LGBTQ+ meetups for 9-year-olds?
    Ms. Yentel. I am here to support the vital work of 
nonprofits, and I will say to oppose the Federal Government----
    Mr. Gill. Do you----
    Ms. Yentel [continuing]. Targeting groups----
    Mr. Gill. My question is----
    Ms. Yentel [continuing]. With views that are different----
    Mr. Gill [continuing]. Do you believe it is appropriate to 
host and promote----
    Ms. Yentel [continuing]. From its own.
    Mr. Gill [continuing]. LGBTQ+ meetups for 9-year-olds?
    Ms. Yentel. I believe that the Federal Government----
    Mr. Gill. Because one of your affiliate nonprofits does do 
that.
    Ms. Yentel [continuing]. Should not target organizations 
that have views different from its own. That is wrong. Whatever 
party is in control, whatever administration is in control.
    Mr. Gill. I think it--I think a lot of this is wrong.
    Ms. Yentel. To use Federal power----
    Mr. Gill. Do you think that it is appropriate for young 
children to use gender transition paraphernalia?
    Ms. Yentel. I----
    Mr. Gill. Because one of your affiliated----
    Ms. Yentel. I have no idea how that is----
    Mr. Gill [continuing]. Nonprofit organizations gives bras, 
binders, breast forms, nipples--I am not even going to repeat 
this because it is so disgusting--for children of all ages.
    Ms. Stansbury. Point of order, Madam Chair. The gentleman 
is breaching decorum and attacking the witness. Can we please 
move on to something----
    Mr. Gill. I am not attacking the witness.
    Ms. Stansbury [continuing]. Relevant to the actual----
    Mr. Gill. I am simply asking a straightforward----
    MS. Stansbury. [continuing] Issue at hand, sir.
    Mr. Gill [continuing]. Question.
    Ms. Greene. Mr. Gill, I will be extending your time. You 
have been interrupted.
    Mr. Gill. Thank you. Thank you. Do you believe that art 
exploration camps for transgender and gender diverse youth of 
the age of 11 is normal?
    Ms. Yentel. We support the vital work of nonprofit 
organizations and oppose the Federal Government opposing----
    Mr. Gill. So----
    Ms. Yentel [continuing]. And targeting organizations.
    Mr. Gill. So, you refuse to answer any of these questions. 
You refuse to even answer the question of whether you are a 
covert White supremacist.
    Ms. Yentel. I am not here to answer questions about my 
personal views or my personal stance.
    Mr. Gill. Is that because you do not want to disclose 
whether you are a covert White supremacist?
    Ms. Yentel. I am here to talk about the essential work 
that----
    Mr. Gill. I am giving you a chance----
    Ms. Yentel [continuing]. Nonprofits do.
    Mr. Gill [continuing]. To tell the world that you are not a 
covert White supremacist.
    Ms. Yentel. Thank you for the chance.
    Mr. Gill. Will you do that?
    Ms. Yentel. I will pass on your chance.
    Mr. Gill. You will pass on that?
    Ms. Yentel. Thank you, sir.
    Mr. Gill. That is astounding. That is really astounding. 
You are a radical far left activist, and you are masquerading 
as somebody promoting nonprofit, nonpartisan institutions and 
you will not even tell this Committee that you are not a covert 
White supremacist. That is astounding.
    I yield my time back.
    Ms. Greene. The gentleman yields.
    Witnesses are reminded you are under oath, and you are here 
to answer questions to the Committee.
    I now recognize Mr. Casar from Texas for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Casar. Chairwoman Greene, you and my Republican 
colleagues have called this hearing that is all about cutting 
off money to nonprofits for things that are ``contrary to the 
national interest.'' What we have heard here is my Republican 
colleagues going after nuns and priests that feed immigrants, 
going after nonprofits that do scary things like support our 
queer youth. It is astounding to me.
    But we do have one nonprofit leader here, Mr. Krikorian. 
Mr. Krikorian, you are the Director of the Center for 
Immigration Studies, correct?
    Mr. Krikorian. Yes.
    Mr. Casar. And according to your organization's website, 
you do receive taxpayer funding or have from the Department of 
Justice and the Census Bureau?
    Mr. Krikorian. Yes, we did research contracts for them many 
years ago.
    Mr. Casar. Got it. And so, you do have a taxpayer-funded 
nonprofit, and your nonprofit, as we have discussed in 
Committee before, has shared articles from Kevin MacDonald, 
whose work argues that Jewish people, alleged by him, are 
``genetically driven to destroy Western societies.'' Is that 
correct?
    Mr. Krikorian. We distributed no such article.
    Mr. Casar. But you did distribute work from this 
antisemite, correct?
    Mr. Krikorian. We distributed work all across the 
spectrum----
    Mr. Casar. Right, from this----
    Mr. Krikorian [continuing]. New York Times to anyone else.
    Mr. Casar [continuing]. Antisemite. Got it.
    OK. Your organization has also circulated an article by 
Holocaust denier John Friend. Is that correct? You said last 
time we were in a hearing that, yes, you have----
    Mr. Krikorian. We have distributed----
    Mr. Casar [continuing]. Distributed that?
    Mr. Krikorian [continuing]. No articles about Holocaust 
denial, obviously. That has nothing to do with this.
    Mr. Casar. But you have from Holocaust denier John Friend?
    Mr. Krikorian. I do not know, but I assume so, yes. I 
mean----
    Mr. Casar. Your website right here does----
    Mr. Krikorian. OK.
    Mr. Casar [continuing]. Talk about that.
    Mr. Krikorian. Yes.
    Mr. Casar. So, I have a yes or no question. Is promoting 
the work of Holocaust deniers and antisemites contrary to the 
national interest?
    Mr. Krikorian. Promoting Holocaust denial, and what have 
you, is contrary to the national interest. That is why we have 
not done it.
    Mr. Casar. But you have promoted the work of Holocaust 
deniers----
    Mr. Krikorian. There was----
    Mr. Casar [continuing]. Like John Friend.
    Mr. Krikorian. There were several examples. We have also 
promoted the work of open-borders people in that broad--that 
effort to present a broad range of views, absolutely. And we do 
not endorse one way or the other.
    Mr. Casar. And so, you have promoted the work of Holocaust 
deniers, but have you received anything from DOGE asking 
whether they want to cut your funding? Have Republicans called 
you in to ask about your nonprofit and said, hey, we do not 
like that you have promoted the work of Holocaust deniers? Have 
you had any funding cut by DOGE----
    Mr. Krikorian. We do not----
    Mr. Casar [continuing]. Or by this Committee?
    Mr. Krikorian. We do not get any funding to be cut.
    Mr. Casar. But you have received Department of Justice 
funding----
    Mr. Krikorian. Decades ago, yes, yes.
    Mr. Casar. And so, look, let me just be real clear here. 
This hearing is not about taking on nonprofits that are going 
``against the national interest'' or who are ``extreme.'' This 
is all about trying to shut down nonprofits who might share 
political views that are different from that of the President 
of the United States.
    This hearing, they are going after organizations they call 
radical because they are kind to kids that are having trouble 
in school, kind to kids that are trying to figure out who they 
are in the world. They are going after nonprofits, and you, 
sir, and your nonprofit are saying that the radical people are 
the priests and nuns that feed the hungry, the nonprofit 
organizations that, yes, give shelter to immigrants. And I 
understand your Center of Immigration Studies does not like 
immigration very much. But let me tell you, the radical folks 
are not the folks out there doing good. The radical folks that 
you might disagree with, their version of the good, but the 
radical folks are the people that in your face come to this 
Committee hearing and are sharing through their websites, 
through their listservs, articles by Holocaust deniers. And you 
are saying, yes, we did not share the Holocaust-denying 
articles, but we shared some of his other stuff.
    I will make my last point here clear. I represent Texas. I 
have longstanding ties to the city of El Paso where in 2019, 23 
people were murdered at a Walmart. The murderer said, ``It was 
based on the Hispanic invasion of Texas.'' And after the 
shooting, Mr. Krikorian, you said that the manifesto was 
``remarkably well-written.'' Can you tell us which part of his 
manifesto was remarkably well-written?
    Mr. Krikorian. What I meant by that was for--that it seemed 
improbable for a nutcase like that to have written something 
that was relatively at least grammatically correct. That was my 
point.
    Mr. Casar. Look, folks here on this Committee are trying to 
shut down nonprofits because they disagree with them. You are a 
nonprofit and you, sir, are saying that the El Paso shooter had 
a manifesto that is remarkably well-written.
    Ms. Greene. The gentleman's time has expired.
    Mr. Casar. That is extreme, and what----
    Ms. Greene. The gentleman's----
    Mr. Casar [continuing]. Goes around comes around.
    Ms. Greene. The gentleman's time----
    Mr. Casar. And it is just important----
    Ms. Greene [continuing]. Has expired.
    Mr. Casar. Chairwoman. OK.
    Ms. Greene. I now recognize Mr. Jack from Georgia for 5 
minutes.
    Mr. Casar. Chairwoman, I just want to make clear----
    Mr. Jack. Thank you, Madam Chair.
    Mr. Casar [continuing]. That what goes around can come 
around.
    Mr. Jack. And thank you, Madam Chair.
    As one of two Georgians on this Committee, yourself 
included, Madam Chair, I would like to first rebut the charge 
from one of our Democrat colleagues that we are today trying to 
politically tear down Stacey Abrams. To remind our Democrat 
colleagues, Madam Chair, a majority of Georgia voters have 
twice rejected Stacey Abrams in 2018, by 2 percent; in 2022, by 
8 percent. So, there is no need for this committee to 
politically tear down Stacey Abrams when the people of Georgia 
already have.
    But this Committee is focused on eliminating waste, fraud, 
and abuse across our government. And again, the purpose of our 
hearing today is to talk about waste, fraud, and abuse among 
non-governmental organizations or nonprofits. And if I could 
start, Ms. Yentel, as the president and CEO of the National 
Council of Nonprofits, is it fair to characterize your 
organization as an informed source of data for nonprofits and 
NGOs?
    Ms. Yentel. Sorry, yes, sir.
    Mr. Jack. And how many, just an estimate, how many NGOs 
receive a majority of their money from the government as 
opposed to citizens, to the best of your knowledge?
    Ms. Yentel. The latest number I saw is that about 27 
percent of nonprofit organizations receive Federal funding.
    Mr. Jack. Does it concern you at all that a non-
governmental organization is receiving a majority of its 
funding from the government?
    Ms. Yentel. Well, I did not say it was the majority. Let me 
correct myself. Thank you. Twenty-seven percent of nonprofit 
organizations receive some of their funding from the Federal 
Government.
    It does not concern me, no. The Federal Government 
appropriates funds to be used for specific purposes, and they 
often partner with nonprofit organizations who are best 
equipped and able to meet local needs with that funding.
    Mr. Jack. OK. Mr. Walter, in your opening statement and 
your written testimony as well, I think you addressed this. 
Could you inform and expound upon the issue that I see, and I 
always think you see, that a non-governmental organization is 
receiving a majority of its funding from the government? To me, 
that is totally contrary to the title of the organization 
itself.
    Mr. Walter. Sure. And the statistic from Candid, which is a 
nonprofit group, is about 35,000 receive the majority of their 
funding from government. And that is obviously a dangerous 
thing. Now, some of them may do good work, but of course, as 
everybody in Washington, DC. knows, if you are getting Federal 
dollars, you deserve a lot of scrutiny. The idea that they 
should just be passed over without scrutiny is quite 
unreasonable.
    Mr. Jack. Without----
    Ms. Yentel. Can I add?
    Mr. Jack. I am sorry. I am going to continue on----
    Ms. Yentel. OK.
    Mr. Jack [continuing]. My line of questioning. And thank 
you.
    Mr. Krikorian, I want to also give you an opportunity just 
to affirm for the record. I know one of our Democrat colleagues 
tried to suggest that you were immune from DOGE cuts. I heard 
you loud and clear, though. The funding and the contracts with 
Department of Justice and the Census Bureau were, to your 
point, decades ago. You are not receiving government funding 
right now.
    Mr. Krikorian. No.
    Mr. Jack. Thank you.
    So, earlier today, Mr. Krikorian, we had the Administrator 
of the Small Business Administration testify before the Small 
Business Committee. And the reason I mention that is, one of 
the issues we talked about was trying to turn off and eliminate 
the incentive structure that rewarded illegal immigration over 
the last 4 years under Joe Biden's Administration. 
Specifically, we talked about relocating small business offices 
from sanctuary cities or sanctuary jurisdictions to 
jurisdictions that honor Federal law enforcement law and 
immigration law.
    And I bring that up because I would love for you in these 
last 90 seconds to walk us through what happened these last 4 
years. If you want to look at the incentive structure that 
rewarded illegal immigration, I suspect you could look no 
further than a lot of nonprofits that operated on our southern 
border. So, I would welcome thoughts for you in closing in this 
hearing.
    Mr. Krikorian. Yes, absolutely. I mean, the whole point of 
enforcing immigration law is to make it impractical to live 
here as an illegal immigrant. In other words, it is not even 
just not rewarding, obviously it is that, but it is also to 
make it difficult. It is why you should not get driver's 
licenses for illegal immigrants, that sort of thing.
    And so, what nonprofit groups during the previous 
administration did, and frankly, even before that, was to make 
it practical, to make it easier for illegal immigrants to live 
here illegally, thereby kind of undoing any deterrent effect or 
any incentive to self-deport, to go home. And so, that is one 
of the things that we need to reverse is to not just take away 
the incentives but to make it impractical to remain here so 
that people will take the Administration up on its offer of a 
free plane ticket home and $1,000 when you get home. There has 
to be some reason you want to do that. What a lot of nonprofit 
groups have done is take away the incentive to go home, and 
that needs to change.
    Mr. Jack. And by the way, 70 to 75 percent of Americans 
agree and support President Trump's immigration policies, House 
Republicans' border priorities.
    Just closing number from you and statistic, can you 
estimate over the last 4 years how much taxpayer money was 
funding, to your point, the incentive structure we are trying 
to eliminate today?
    Mr. Krikorian. I wish I had a number, but it is all over. 
It is billions, but I have no idea how much exactly.
    Mr. Jack. Billions of dollars.
    With that, Madam Chair, I yield.
    Ms. Greene. The gentleman yields.
    I now recognize Mr. Gosar from Arizona.
    Mr. Turner. Ma'am, excuse me. May I ask a question first 
before the Congressman speaks? I apologize for the rare point 
of order.
    I was not able to ask Mr. Casar before he ran out the room, 
but he was looking at the witnesses talking about a murderer 
and said, ``What goes around comes around.'' And I do not know 
what that comment meant. I do not have the luxury of Capitol 
Hill police to protect me. In the climate space, we get a lot 
of death threats. We got a lot of hate. The climate 
environmental groups----
    Ms. Greene. Mr.----
    Mr. Turner. [continuing] Are the original violence. I just 
do not know ``What goes around comes around'' meant.
    Ms. Greene. Mr. Turner, we will address you feeling 
threatened as soon as the hearing has ended. Thank you very 
much.
    Mr. Turner. Thank you, ma'am.
    Ms. Greene. Yes. Mr. Gosar is recognized for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Gosar. Thank you, Madam Chairman. Thank you for 
allowing me to sit down.
    President Trump has worked tirelessly to weed out the 
waste, fraud, and abuse of taxpayer dollars by nongovernmental 
organizations or NGOs. And my home state of Arizona is at the 
forefront of these issues where NGOs are shipping illegal 
aliens into the United States. Question for each one of you. 
Have you heard of the United Nations Resolution 1996/31 titled 
``Consultative Relationship between the United Nations and non-
government organizations''?
    Mr. Walter?
    Mr. Walter. I am sorry, no.
    Mr. Gosar. How about you, Mr.----
    Mr. Krikorian. No, I have not.
    Mr. Gosar. Mr. Turner?
    Mr. Turner. I am not familiar, sir.
    Mr. Gosar. How about you, Ms. Yentel?
    Ms. Yentel. No.
    Mr. Gosar. Well, I am going to give you some cliff notes on 
this one, OK? It states that if the U.N. gives money to an NGO 
that also receives voluntary contributions, the NGO must, must, 
must disclose the sources of these donations and explain why it 
is accepted for such a donation. If the U.N. can do it, why 
can't we?
    And I am going somewhere here. In fact, I will read one of 
the sentences in this U.N. resolution. ``Any financial 
contribution or other support direct or indirect from a 
government to the organization shall be openly declared to the 
committee through the secretary general and fully recorded in 
the financial and other records of the organization and shall 
be devoted to purposes in accordance with the aims of the 
United Nations.''
    Oh, wow. That sounds like the only time I agree with the 
United Nations. May I submit this for the record, please?
    Ms. Greene. Without objection, so ordered.
    Mr. Gosar. My legislation, H.R. 2841, the Putting Trust in 
Transparency Act--and I think the President has something along 
the same lines--requires, requires NGOs that receive even $1 of 
Federal funding to disclose their extravagant donors, just like 
the U.N. does. Wow, what a concept. It applies to all NGOs. You 
do not have to take Federal money, but when you do, you have to 
pay the piper.
    Now, if you are an NGO that advocates for limited 
government but accepts Federal dollars, you are a sock puppet 
for your donors. There should be zero taxpayer-funded advocacy.
    Mr. Turner, you talked about the government slush funds and 
transparency in your testimony. We know many leaders of these 
NGOs use both public and private funding for their own 
political grift. Question: What do leaders have to personally 
gain by fleecing American tax dollars?
    Mr. Turner. Oh, the salaries, sir. And that is why this 
whole conversation of how these are puppy-raising organizations 
and they give food to the homeless, this is all a bunch of 
crap. These are organizations that fund political Democrats 
with enormous salaries, pay their consultants that then give 
donations to political Democrats. And that is why it is 
billions of dollars hidden under justice, climate, whatever you 
want to call it.
    Mr. Gosar. Mr. Krikorian, is it illegal to aid and abet an 
illegal alien?
    Mr. Krikorian. It is indeed. And the question is, the real 
question is, what does aiding and abetting mean? And it has not 
been defined broadly enough.
    Mr. Gosar. I want to interrupt you. I want to interrupt 
you. Aiding and abetting, I guess, could be defined that, but 
when you are going into other countries and showing people the 
way here and then finding out that you can give them the luxury 
of things off of American persons, that would be aiding and 
abetting, wouldn't you say?
    Mr. Krikorian. It sure seems to me. Yes, it does.
    Mr. Gosar. Well, there is a reason why I want this, because 
if you thought the USAID was riddled with fraud, wait till you 
see these NGOs. I love what Ms. Yentel was saying. You know, 
the store, my Habitat for Humanity, I love that store. I love 
that store because they are building something. They are trying 
to put stuff to use and recycle it. But I got this perception 
over here from this lady that everything is hunky-dory. It is 
not. You cannot violate the United States laws. You cannot. Oh, 
I forgot. Yes, you can. You can violate any law you want to 
because we are void of a sheriff. Well, we were void of a 
sheriff for the last 4 years. But see, we want to see this 
transparency because we want to have those numbers for the 
American public.
    Mr. Walter, are you scared of the American public for 
sunlight?
    Mr. Walter. Not remotely.
    Mr. Gosar. See, that is why I have another bill, and it is 
called the LASSO Act. Imagine this. I heard all our friends 
from the other side of the aisle say that we are attacking 
Social Security. Wouldn't it be interesting if I took 10 
percent of all the public lands, all the revenues coming off 
public lands and off our oceans and I put it in a Social 
Security trust fund? Would that surprise you, Mr. Walter?
    Mr. Walter. Possibly.
    Mr. Gosar. How about you, Mr. Krikorian?
    Mr. Krikorian. It is not my area. I do not know. I am not 
familiar with it.
    Mr. Gosar. I am putting it in there. Does it look like I am 
cutting Social Security?
    Mr. Krikorian. Right. No, it does not.
    Mr. Gosar. How about you, Mr. Turner?
    Mr. Turner. No.
    Mr. Gosar. Well, Madam Chair, I got to tell you, this is 
too much fun. I got to let you, I yield back.
    Ms. Greene. The gentleman yields.
    In closing, I want to thank our witnesses once again for 
their testimony today.
    I now yield to Ranking Member Stansbury for closing 
remarks.
    Ms. Stansbury. All right. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman.
    I want to start by saying this is not normal. I say this a 
lot, but today is certainly no exception because while we were 
sitting here, while we were sitting here, Mr. Elon Musk began 
tweeting again. He says, ``Call your senator. Call your 
Congressman. Bankrupting America is not OK. Kill the bill,'' in 
all caps. Nothing is normal right now.
    Attacking Federal agencies and dismantling vital services, 
firing thousands of Federal workers and shattering their lives, 
stealing your private data illegally and downloading it and 
using it on AI systems, letting children starve on the other 
side of the world while gutting vital public health programs, 
zeroing out funding for public media, none of these things are 
normal. And certainly, attacking community organizations and 
vital nonprofits that serve the public good is not normal.
    But in addition to that, it is also not legal. And that is 
why there are over 200 Federal court cases currently in front 
of the Federal court right now, including dozens of injunctions 
and restraining orders against the Trump Administration for 
their lawless and illegal activities because not only is it not 
normal, it is not legal.
    For months, the Trump Administration has been threatening 
that they will undermine the nonprofit status of nonprofits 
that they do not like. It is very clear that they have been 
searching for some sort of legal argument that will give them a 
path forward and they have yet to find it because it is not 
legal. The law is very clear. It is not legal. They cannot go 
after your IRS status. They cannot go after your nonprofit 
status. It is not legal.
    So, if you are a nonprofit in America and you are listening 
to this hearing and you are feeling frightened, scared, you 
have received a letter, you have received a threat, or you have 
been contacted by DOGE or any Federal official to audit or 
enter your nonprofit organization, know your rights. Contact a 
lawyer. Make sure you understand what your rights are and what 
you can do to protect your organization.
    Now, I understand that my friends across the aisle want to 
talk about corruption, waste, fraud and abuse. I mean, this is 
the DOGE Subcommittee, but it is so bizarre to see the high 
level of gaslighting that happens every moment in this 
Congress. They want to talk about corruption and nonprofit 
organizations that do voter registration and help fight the 
climate crisis and help starving children, but they will not 
even acknowledge that Elon Musk, who just left the 
Administration, gave himself billions of dollars in private 
contracts while serving in the Federal Government. That he, 
himself, changed out the communications infrastructure for 
multiple agencies, set himself on a path to get billions of 
dollars in private DOD contracts. And yes, he did download your 
data. And we will hold him accountable because no one is above 
the law, including the President.
    So, if we want to talk about corruption, why don't we talk 
about a President who launches a meme coin and takes hundreds 
of millions of dollars in payments from foreign governments 
laundered through his family business? How about we talk about 
a President who solicited a foreign government for a $400 
million plane that he wants to keep privately through his 
Presidential library afterwards? How about we talk about a 
President that wants to sell pardons for meme coins? You guys 
want to talk about corruption? Or we can talk about dark money 
and its influence on politics.
    Now, I understand that some of the witnesses felt a little 
exposed here today by having facts presented about what their 
organizations are, who funds them, and what they do. But the 
facts remain. The facts remain. Project 2025, which is a 900-
page document drafted by The Heritage Foundation and over 100 
organizations, including those represented here today, is the 
blueprint for Donald Trump's America. It is being executed by 
more than 70 administration officials, including the Director 
of the Office of Management and Budget, who is now executing 
DOGE and is being utilized to attack anyone that they disagree 
with politically or culturally. That is what this is all about. 
That is what this hearing is about. And we want all of you out 
there who are listening to know this is not normal, it is not 
legal, and we will fight it every step of the way.
    I yield back.
    Ms. Greene. I now recognize myself for closing remarks.
    There are a lot of things that are not normal, and that is 
using the power of the government to fund your friends and your 
family members and to employ former bureaucrats to enact 
policies that invade our country and hurt our energy, our 
American energy. Yes, those things are not normal, and that is 
why we are talking about them here today.
    As we have heard here today, the American taxpayer dollars 
are being laundered through the revolving door of NGOs and 
Democrat officials. These pay-to-play schemes are so deep-
rooted in the system and are such well-oiled machines, and they 
must be dismantled immediately. To be clear, we support 
charitable NGOs that help Americans in times of need, such as 
during the aftermath of wildfires in California and the 
hurricane in western North Carolina, Georgia, and eastern 
Tennessee.
    We do not support politically connected NGOs who rake in 
billions of Federal tax dollars to serve the Democrat Party and 
their friends and their priorities. We do not support Democrat 
officials creating slush funds, writing grants and contracts, 
and deciding who those funds go to, and then going to work at 
the same NGO that it just awarded those funds to. Yes, that is 
not normal. That is the reality of what we are facing and what 
we faced for the past 4 years.
    As our witnesses stated, these corrupt NGOs do not serve 
the American people. They serve big government and the Democrat 
Party. If the American people support their climate and other 
woke causes, they can choose to personally donate to these 
entities. They can pay for it themselves. The American people 
are the most generous people in the entire world. In 2023 
alone, Americans privately donated over $557 billion of their 
own money. They should be the ones who decide where their money 
goes. They can choose if they want to donate to a nonprofit and 
which nonprofit.
    The American people are not just generous with their money, 
but they are generous with their time as well. In 2023, nearly 
76 million Americans, almost 30 percent of Americans, formally 
volunteered through an organization. The government did not 
make them do this. They did it on their own. The government did 
not hold a gun to their head and make them volunteer. The 
government did not hold a gun to their head and make them 
donate their own money. They did it on their own. However, the 
government is forcing them to pay for things that they do not 
support and they do not want happening.
    The United States is $36 trillion in debt. In 2024, the 
government spent over $1.8 trillion more than it took in. And 
in 2025, the interest in our debt is expected to exceed $1 
trillion dollars. Our government is broke. Our government is 
going bankrupt. Our government is not a charity for the left to 
use to launder money through to their friends and to former 
government employees.
    Notice this, this is extremely important, there is a 
difference of what you heard on this Committee today. Our 
Democrat colleagues believe taking money from the American 
people and forcing them to support the causes that they support 
is the right thing to do. They do not believe in the mission of 
this Subcommittee, which is DOGE, which is Delivering on 
Government Efficiency. And that is a mission that has been 
created in this Administration, thankfully, to President Trump, 
and it is a mission that we are continuing here on this 
Subcommittee, on Oversight, and we are proud of it.
    As a matter of fact, we are delivering government 
efficiency, and we are proud to let everyone know that we will 
be voting next week for actual DOGE rescission cuts that this 
Committee held hearings on. And that is producing results for 
the American people because most of the time in Congress, all 
Congress does is create more laws, create more regulations, and 
spend more of the American people's dollars. But right here on 
the DOGE Subcommittee, thankfully to the hard work of its 
Members and staff, we are actually making a difference, and we 
are going to be cutting government funding, government 
spending, government waste, fraud, and abuse.
    In closing, we are incredibly grateful to the Trump 
Administration for directing all Federal agencies to review all 
agency funding to NGOs. These actions taken by the Trump 
Administration will finally provide long overdue oversight over 
the revolving door of NGO corruption. And we will continue our 
work here on the DOGE Subcommittee no matter how much pitching 
of tantrums that we hear from our Democrat colleagues. We are 
proud of what we are doing, and we know the American people 
support it. Thank you.
    [Whereupon, at 4:32 p.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.]

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