[House Hearing, 119 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
UNFAIR PLAY:
KEEPING MEN OUT OF WOMEN'S SPORTS
=======================================================================
HEARING
BEFOROE THE
SUBCOMMITTEE ON DELIVERING ON
GOVERNMENT EFFICIENCY
OF THE
COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT
AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
__________
MAY 7, 2025
__________
Serial No. 119-25
__________
Printed for the use of the Committee on Oversight and Government Reform
[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Available on: govinfo.gov
oversight.house.gov or
docs.house.gov
__________
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
60-447 PDF WASHINGTON : 2025
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COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
JAMES COMER, Kentucky, Chairman
Jim Jordan, Ohio Gerald E. Connolly, Virginia,
Mike Turner, Ohio Ranking Minority Member
Paul Gosar, Arizona Eleanor Holmes Norton, District of
Virginia Foxx, North Carolina Columbia
Glenn Grothman, Wisconsin Stephen F. Lynch, Massachusetts
Michael Cloud, Texas Raja Krishnamoorthi, Illinois
Gary Palmer, Alabama Ro Khanna, California
Clay Higgins, Louisiana Kweisi Mfume, Maryland
Pete Sessions, Texas Shontel Brown, Ohio
Andy Biggs, Arizona Melanie Stansbury, New Mexico
Nancy Mace, South Carolina Robert Garcia, California
Pat Fallon, Texas Maxwell Frost, Florida
Byron Donalds, Florida Summer Lee, Pennsylvania
Scott Perry, Pennsylvania Greg Casar, Texas
William Timmons, South Carolina Jasmine Crockett, Texas
Tim Burchett, Tennessee Emily Randall, Washington
Marjorie Taylor Greene, Georgia Suhas Subramanyam, Virginia
Lauren Boebert, Colorado Yassamin Ansari, Arizona
Anna Paulina Luna, Florida Wesley Bell, Missouri
Nick Langworthy, New York Lateefah Simon, California
Eric Burlison, Missouri Dave Min, California
Eli Crane, Arizona Ayanna Pressley, Massachusetts
Brian Jack, Georgia Rashida Tlaib, Michigan
John McGuire, Virginia
Brandon Gill, Texas
------
Mark Marin, Staff Director
James Rust, Deputy Staff Director
Mitch Benzine, General Counsel
Peter Warren, Senior Advisor
Billy Grant, Professional Staff Member
Lisa Piraneo, Senior Professional Staff Member
Margaret Harker, Senior Advisor
Mallory Cogar, Deputy Director of Operations and Chief Clerk
Contact Number: 202-225-5074
Jamie Smith, Minority Staff Director
Contact Number: 202-225-5051
------
Subcommittee on Delivering on Government Efficiency
Marjorie Taylor Greene, Georgia, Chairwoman
Michael Cloud, Texas Melanie Stansbury, New Mexico
Pat Fallon, Texas Ranking Minority Member
William Timmons, South Carolina Eleanor Holmes Norton, District of
Tim Burchett, Tennessee Columbia
Eric Burlison, Missouri Stephen Lynch, Massachussetts
Brian Jack, Georgia Robert Garcia, California
Brandon Gill, Texas Greg Casar, Texas
Jasmine Crockett, Texas
C O N T E N T S
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Page
Hearing held on May 7, 2025...................................... 1
Witnesses
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Ms. Stephanie Turner, Competitive Fencer
Oral Statement................................................... 7
Ms. Payton McNabb, Former High School Athlete, Ambassador for
Sports, Independent Women's Forum
Oral Statement................................................... 9
Mr. Damien Lehfeldt, Chairman of the Board, USA Fencing
Oral Statement................................................... 11
Ms. Fatima Goss Graves (Minority Witness), President and Chief
Executive Officer, National Women's Law Center
Oral Statement................................................... 12
Written opening statements and bios are available on the U.S.
House of Representatives Document Repository at:
docs.house.gov.
Index of Documents
----------
* Statement for the Record, CWALAC; submitted by Rep. Greene.
* Facebook, The Fencing Coach, ``On Trans Inclusion in
Fencing''; submitted by Rep. Burchett.
* National Women's Soccer League, ``2021 Policy on Transgender
Athletes''; submitted by Rep. Cloud.
* U.S. Weightlifting, ``Athlete gender inclusion competitive
equity and eligibility policy''; submitted by Rep. Cloud.
* Press Release, USA Fencing, ``Here's the Latest on USA
Fencing Tournament Site Selection''; submitted by Rep. Cloud.
* USA Track & Field, Statement Regarding Transgender,
Transsexual Policy; submitted by Rep. Cloud.
* U.S. Tennis Association, Transgender Inclusion Policy;
submitted by Rep. Cloud.
* Article, Newsweek, ``Nancy Mace Has Posted 326 Times About
Bathrooms''; submitted by Rep. Garcia.
* Article, CNN Politics, ``Nancy Mace, now targeting
transgender lawmaker''; submitted by Rep. Garcia.
* Article, New York Times, ``GOP Plans to Cut Medicaid Would
Leave More Uninsured''; submitted by Rep. Stansbury.
* Article, The Hill, ``Millions of people could lose insurance
under GOP Medicaid options''; submitted by Rep. Stansbury.
* Article, GBH, ``What has DOGE done in Trump's first 100
days''; submitted by Rep. Stansbury.
* Executive Order, The White House, ``Keeping Men Out of
Women's Sports''; submitted by Rep. Timmons.
Documents are available at: docs.house.gov.
UNFAIR PLAY:
KEEPING MEN OUT OF WOMEN'S SPORTS
----------
Wednesday, May 7, 2025
U.S. House of Representatives
Committee on Oversight and Government Reform
Subcommittee on Delivering on Government Efficiency
Washington, D.C.
The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:02 p.m.,
Room HVC-210, U.S. Capitol Visitor Center, Hon. Marjorie Taylor
Greene, [Chairwoman of the Subcommittee] presiding.
Present: Representatives Greene, Comer, Cloud, Fallon,
Timmons, Burchett, Burlison, Jack, Gill, Stansbury, Norton,
Lynch, Garcia, Casar, and Crockett.
Also present: Representatives Mace, Crane, McClain,
Randall, Simon, and Jacobs.
Ms. Greene. This hearing of the Subcommittee on Delivering
on Government Efficiency will come to order. Welcome, everyone.
Without objection, the Chair may declare a recess at any time.
I recognize myself for the purpose of making an opening
statement.
Good afternoon and welcome, everyone. I would like to start
by playing a video of why we are here today. So, if we can go
ahead and play that, please. Where is our digital team?
[Video shown.]
Ms. Greene. Female athletes should never be forced to
compete against mentally ill biological men who parade around
in women's clothes. But we will hear from witnesses today who
had to face off against biological male competitors. This led
one to suffer a life-altering physical injury from a volleyball
spike to her head. The other was thrown out of a recent fencing
competition for refusing to compete against a man.
Why is this happening when we have Federal laws on the
books intended to foster women's sports? Back in 1972, Congress
adopted Title IX to create and protect equal athletic
opportunity for girls and women in schools and colleges.
Congress included similar language in legislation governing
other amateur sports competitions.
The law chartering the U.S. Olympic and Paralympic
Committee, for instance, authorizes the Olympic Committee to
recognize and empower national governing bodies to oversee
individual sports on a national level. That includes
determining how athletes are chosen to represent the U.S. in
the Olympic Games and other international competitions. These
NGBs, such as USA Fencing, have statutory duties and
obligations, including promoting equal athletic opportunity for
women, biological women.
Specifically, NGBs are to provide equitable support and
encouragement for participation by women where separate
programs for male and female athletes are conducted on a
national basis. Yet, USA Fencing makes a mockery out of women's
fencing by allowing biological males to compete in its women's
fencing competitions.
We understand there are roughly 200 biological males
competing in the USA Fencing women's division. This includes
males who have won national titles and represented the U.S. in
international competition in women's fencing. We subpoenaed the
Board Chair of USA Fencing, Damien Lehfeldt, to appear here
today. We did so because the board is responsible for setting
USA Fencing policies and for ensuring those policies comply
with Federal law. At a recent board meeting where Mr. Lehfeldt
presided, the board determined it would change its policy on
transgender athletes if and only if forced to do so.
Some science shows that men have numerous physical
advantages over women that create unfair and potentially
dangerous competitions. Such physical advantages are
significant in fencing. According to a letter we received from
USA Fencing Board member Andrey Geva, a coach of Olympians and
world champions, ``Transgender women fencers have significant
advantages in women's competitions,'' he writes, citing
advantages in body size, reach, shoulder width, muscle
development, explosive strength, and recovery capacity. And a
United Nations report issued last year finds that testosterone
suppression does not eliminate the advantage of biological
males to avoid the loss of a fair opportunity. It concludes,
``Males must not compete in female categories of sport.''
But it is not surprising that the USA Fencing policy on
trans competitors ignores the science. The board is not shy
about putting politics ahead of the sport, ahead of women, and
ahead of the law. In selecting sites for its national fencing
events, for instance, the board policy is to avoid states whose
laws and policies on LGBTQ rights and abortion it opposes. It
uses equality maps to determine which states to blacklist from
its competitions and which states to favor.
This ends up favoring a lot of blue states and harming a
lot of red ones. So, it creates politically determined winners
and losers, but it has absolutely nothing to do with fencing.
And it contradicts USA Fencing's statutory duty as an NGB to
develop interest and participation throughout the United States
in fencing. Recently, the board even voted against playing the
national anthem at its events.
So, we should not be surprised that the board opposed the
creation of an all-female task force to reevaluate its
transgender policy. And it has never surveyed its membership
one simple question: ``Do you support transgender athletes
competing in women's competitions?''
Notably, Americans broadly have been polled on that
question, and the response is overwhelming. A New York Times
Ipsos poll this past January found 94 percent of Republicans,
67 percent of Democrats, and 64 percent of Independents agree,
keep men out of women's sports. Americans also reelected
President Trump in November, and he spoke on their behalf in
February when he issued his executive order, keeping men out of
women's sports.
The United States is hosting the Summer Games in Los
Angeles in 2028. It is a great time for us to once again take
the lead in protecting and preserving the ability of women to
engage in safe, fair athletic competition by keeping biological
men out of women's sports.
A United Nations report issued last August, most noted
female athletes worldwide have lost out on numerous medal
opportunities due to policies allowing males to compete in the
women's category. More than 600 female athletes and more than
400 competitions have lost more than 890 medals in 29 different
sports. I do not want any more women missing out on medal
opportunities, avoiding athletic competitions, or missing out
on college scholarships, and I do not want to see any more
girls or women getting hurt.
We cannot and should not forget the gruesome injury
suffered by one of our witnesses here today, Payton McNabb. It
happened when she was spiked in the head by a male athlete who
identified as a transgender woman. And I would like to ask the
digital team to please play this video now.
[Video shown.]
Ms. Greene. That is sick.
This is why I look forward to fighting and winning the
battle to keep men out of women's sports alongside President
Trump and brave women like Stephanie and Payton who are here
today.
Now, you are going to hear from our Democrat colleagues who
are going to fight for these mentally ill biological men to
continue beating women and stealing their competitions,
stealing their medals, and stealing their national
championships.
And with that, I yield to the Ranking Member Stansbury for
her opening statement.
Ms. Stansbury. All right. Well, thank you, Madam
Chairwoman. As you can see, it is going to be an interesting
hearing today.
Welcome to the Oversight Committee and in particular, the
DOGE Subcommittee. I do want to say welcome to our guests and
to your families. We do appreciate all of you coming here to
tell your stories.
But I want to make clear that this hearing is actually not
about oversight or DOGE but about spreading hate and using
trans lives to distract from the real issues that Americans are
facing from attacks on our economy, to attacks on our
democracy, to attacks on our communities.
So, let us call this hearing what it actually is. It is
about bullying trans kids and members of the trans community to
distract from the failed policies of the Trump Administration,
the failed policies and exploitation of this DOGE Subcommittee,
and the GOP's own cruel agenda that is happening right now here
on Capitol Hill as they are trying to gut Medicaid, gut food
assistance, gut environmental programs to give tax breaks to
billionaires because that is actually what is going on behind
these doors all around us.
So, as the Ranking Member of this Subcommittee, let me
start by saying to everyone in the trans and LGBTQ+ community
who might be watching or listening today that we see you, we
love you, we respect you, we are fighting for you, and we will
fight back against this hateful agenda.
Now, I do want to point out here at the outset that we are
in fact in the Oversight Subcommittee on ``Delivering on
Government Efficiency,'' and this is a Committee here in
Congress that was created this year by the GOP supposedly to
address government efficiency. And this hearing literally has
nothing to do with that. In fact, it has nothing to do with
anything that falls under the Oversight and Accountability
Committee's [sic] jurisdiction. This hearing is so irrelevant
to this Committee, it is just a complete distraction from what
is actually happening in Congress right now.
So, let us review what this Subcommittee is actually
supposed to be working on since my friends seem to have
forgotten that. In their own rule, Rule XI of this Committee,
this Subcommittee shall, ``have oversight jurisdiction over the
Federal civil service, including compensation, classification,
benefits, Federal property disposal, government reorganization
and operations, transparency, performance, grants management,
and accounting measures generally. That is the jurisdiction of
this Committee. And I do not know about any of you, but I do
not see anything in here about sports, the Olympics, Title IX,
fencing, and certainly nothing about policing the bodies of
Americans.
And frankly, hearings of this Subcommittee have become so
divorced from reality or anything resembling oversight in the
jurisdiction of this Committee, it has basically turned into a
political campaign ad, as you just saw on these TVs. That is
what this Subcommittee has devolved into. And frankly, I think
many of us expected that that is where we would end up.
But meanwhile, Donald Trump is letting Elon Musk and his
Cabinet Secretaries and OMB now continue to dismantle our
Federal agencies, to hack our private data. They are firing
veterans and teachers and firefighters. They are trying to
break Social Security and the VA. And there is literally no
oversight happening here in this Committee under the GOP. In
fact, my colleagues have failed to bring even a single
Administration witness here to this Committee. They have not
brought Elon Musk, they have not brought a Cabinet Secretary,
they have not brought a political. They have not brought anyone
to this Committee to answer to the lawless and immoral behavior
that is happening inside the Administration or anything that
relates to the jurisdiction of this Committee.
That is why even though we had hoped, on the Democratic
side, for real and meaningful bipartisan work to make the
government more efficient, to make it work better for
Americans, we have to sit here week after week and fight back
against this abusive and lawless and ridiculous agenda.
And, you know, I want to just point out that there are now
over 220 lawsuits against the Trump Administration and over 130
court restraining orders and injunctions against them because
of this agenda.
So, why did the Chairwoman decide to call this hearing
today? Why is it that we are trying to distract from an agenda
that is so unpopular that 2/3 of Americans disprove of what
DOGE and Elon Musk is doing? Maybe it has something to do with
the failure of the President in the first 100 days, that his
approval ratings have declined by 14 percent. Maybe it is to
distract from the reality that our economy is tanking and
prices are going up. Maybe it is because the budget that came
to Congress last week doubles down on proposals to take food
out of the mouths of children. Maybe it is because behind
closed doors all around us, they are trying to take away your
Medicaid and your food assistance.
So, why bully trans kids? Why take up airspace to bully a
population that only makes up 0.6 percent of the population?
Because clearly, they are living rent-free in the GOP's minds.
But simply put, Republicans are focused on the wrong 1 percent.
So, why are they so obsessed? Why is Trump attacking trans
people? Why is this the centerpiece of the Republicans here on
Capitol Hill? Honestly, it is weird and it is wrong.
And I just want to say to all of the people in the trans
community who are watching, we uplift your stories. We are
fighting for the community. We are fighting for the rights of
everyone in our communities. And this hearing has absolutely
nothing to do with the Oversight Committee. And that is why at
this time, I make a motion to immediately adjourn this hearing.
Ms. Greene. The motion is not debatable.
All those in favor of adjourning, signify by saying aye.
[Chorus of ayes.]
Ms. Greene. All those opposed signify by saying no.
[Chorus of noes.]
Ms. Greene. In the opinion of the Chair, the noes have it.
A recorded vote will be asked for. The clerk will call the
roll.
Yes, we will pause for the clerk.
[Pause.]
A recorded vote is ordered. The clerk will call the roll.
The Clerk. Mr. Cloud?
Mr. Cloud. No.
The Clerk. Mr. Cloud votes no.
Mr. Fallon?
[No response.]
The Clerk. Mr. Timmons?
Mr. Timmons. No.
The Clerk. Mr. Timmons votes no.
Mr. Burchett?
Mr. Burchett. No.
The Clerk. Mr. Burchett votes no.
Mr. Burlison?
Mr. Burlison. No.
The Clerk. Mr. Burlison votes no.
Mr. Jack?
Mr. Jack. No.
The Clerk. Mr. Jack votes no.
Mr. Gill?
Mr. Gill. No.
The Clerk. Mr. Gill votes no.
Mr. Comer?
Mr. Comer. No.
The Clerk. Mr. Comer votes no.
Ms. Norton?
Ms. Norton. Yes.
The Clerk. Ms. Norton votes yes.
Mr. Lynch?
Mr. Lynch. Aye.
The Clerk. Mr. Lynch votes aye.
Mr. Garcia?
Mr. Garcia. Yes.
The Clerk. Mr. Garcia votes yes.
Mr. Casar?
Mr. Casar. Yes.
The Clerk. Mr. Casar votes yes.
Ms. Crockett?
Ms. Crockett. Yes.
The Clerk. Ms. Crockett votes yes.
Ms. Stansbury?
Ms. Stansbury. Yes.
The Clerk. Ms. Stansbury votes yes.
Ms. Greene?
Ms. Greene. No.
The Clerk. Ms. Greene votes no.
Ms. Greene. The clerk will report the tally.
The Clerk. Ms. Chairwoman, on this vote, the noes are
eight. The ayes are six.
Ms. Greene. The noes have it, and the motion to adjourn is
not agreed to.
Also, pursuant to Committee Rule XI(a)(ii), Chairman Comer
refers specific responsibility for the matter of this DOGE
Subcommittee hearing regarding USA Fencing hearing to Chairman
Greene and the Subcommittee on Delivering on Government
Efficiency. This hearing is directly under our jurisdiction.
Without objection, Representatives McClain of Michigan,
Mace of South Carolina, Crane of Arizona, Randall of
Washington, Jacobs of California, and Simon of California are
waived onto the Subcommittee for the purpose of questioning the
witnesses at today's Committee hearing.
Ms. Stansbury. Madam Chair, a point of parliamentary
inquiry.
Ms. Greene. What is your inquiry?
Ms. Stansbury. Could you please further expound about how
this falls under the jurisdiction of the Subcommittee and the
rules?
Ms. Greene. Ms. Stansbury, under Committee Rule XI(a)(ii),
Chairman Comer of the Oversight Committee has referred
responsibility for this hearing to the DOGE Subcommittee
hearing regarding USA Fencing.
Ms. Stansbury. So, Chairman Comer is changing the rules so
that now fencing hearings fall under Department of Government
Efficiency?
Ms. Greene. OK. This is the rule book right here, Ms.
Stansbury. I am sure you have a copy of it.
Ms. Stansbury. OK. Can you read us the----
Ms. Greene. The No. 2----
Ms. Stansbury [continuing]. Part that refers fencing to
this Subcommittee?
Ms. Greene. No. 2, ``In addition, each Subcommittee shall
have specific responsibility for such other measures or matters
as the Chair of the Committee refers to it.'' And this is the
hearing that we are having jurisdiction over. It is an
important issue that biological men stay out of women's sports,
and we would like to hold the hearing on that today, and we are
going to continue and go ahead.
I am pleased to introduce our witnesses today. Stephanie
Turner is a competitive fencer who recently took a knee at a
USA Fencing event to avoid facing a biological male in a
women's event.
Payton McNabb is a former high school athlete and now an
ambassador for Independent Women who was injured by a
biological man in a high school volleyball game.
Damien Lehfeldt is the Chairman of the Board of Directors
at USA Fencing, a recognized national governing body for
fencing under the U.S. Olympic and Paralympic Committee as
codified in the Ted Stevens Act.
Fatima Goss Graves is the President and Chief Executive
Officer of the National Women's Law Center.
I want to thank you all for being here to testify today.
Pursuant to Committee Rule 9(g), the witnesses will please
stand and raise their right hand.
Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you are
about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
the truth, so help you God?
[Chorus of ayes.]
Ms. Greene. Let the record show that the witnesses answered
in the affirmative. Thank you. You may take a seat.
We appreciate you being here today and look forward to your
testimony. Let me remind the witnesses that we have read your
written statement, and they will appear in full in the hearing
record. Please limit your oral statement to 5 minutes. As a
reminder, please press the button on the microphone in front of
you so that it is on and the Members can hear you. When you
begin to speak, the light in front of you will turn green.
After 4 minutes, the light will turn yellow. When the red light
comes on, your 5 minutes have expired, and we would ask that
you please wrap up.
I now recognize Ms. Turner for her opening statements.
STATEMENT OF STEPHANIE TURNER
COMPETITIVE FENCER
Ms. Turner. Good afternoon, Chairwoman Greene and Ranking
Member Stansbury and Members of the Committee. It is a
privilege to be invited here to speak to you today.
I started fencing at the University of Maryland College
Club Team 12 years ago and became competitive within the United
States Fencing Association a year later. What started as a
hobby, quickly became a deep passion of mine. In these past 12
years, I estimate that I have spent over 7,000 hours training
and over $100,000 between lessons, club dues, competition fees,
equipment, and travel. I have dedicated a significant portion
of my life to this sport and competition because, like
thousands of other women, I love it.
My favorite part of fencing is the competition, the thrill,
the fight, the triumph, and even the heartache. But lately,
fair, female-only competition is harder and harder to come by.
USA Fencing has over 200 self-declared members who identify as
transgender. Each time a man competes in the women's category
with USA Fencing's support, it removes fair sport and takes
opportunities from women.
Fencing is a combat sport, a martial art of sorts. There
are elements of speed, power, reaction time, distance control,
footwork, and blade work, all attributes affected by sex
development. It is not uncommon for a quicker, more athletic
opponent to overcome the technique of another fencer.
Athleticism is powerful in fencing and works in equal parts
with strategy and technique. It is unbelievably demeaning to
female fencers to put down the differences between men and
women and any woman's loss to a man as a skill issue or that a
woman simply needs to work harder.
Within the USA Fencing authoritative body, there is a
culture of intimidation toward women which demands that we be
silent when men enter our tournaments, a culture that includes
public humiliation, doxxing, social ostracism, dismissal, and
even threats. I went from avoiding tournaments with known male
athletes to reaching out to news outlets to get this story
known. But USA Fencing, up until my protest, has been
unresponsive to women's demands for fair fencing and instead
doubled down on efforts to promote male inclusion in the female
category.
One month ago, I took a knee in protest to a man competing
in my category, Division 1A Women's Foil, ironically held at
the University of Maryland where my fencing career began, and
the video of my protest went viral. The story of that knee
began 3 years ago when I contacted ICONS out of desperation for
numerous men taking women's national and world titles.
Leadership was not only ignoring women, but encouraging and
glorifying these men. It felt like there was no place for women
in USA Fencing.
It took me nearly 3 years to get up the courage to come out
publicly. That knee I took in protest was a cry for help and an
act of desperation. The night before the tournament, I saw
Redmond Sullivan's name on the registration list. I recognized
his name from a Reduxx article as a male fencer within Wagner
College's men's team, who switched to the Women's NCAA team and
the Women's USA Fencing Division.
I cried the whole night and again felt betrayed by USA
Fencing. I had already spent the money on competition fees and
new equipment and spent hours training and refurbishing my
equipment, and I had traveled down from Philadelphia,
Pennsylvania to College Park, Maryland the night before in
preparation for that tournament. I felt trapped. I had been
defrauded of a women's tournament and sold a lie by USA
Fencing.
This was hardly the first time I faced fencing a man in a
women's competition. In previous instances, I would wait until
the last minute to register for a tournament to see if any
known men would register. If they did, I would not sign up. I
missed out on numerous regional and national tournaments. I did
not want to keep abandoning opportunities to advance my
fencing. I had felt so isolated and strangled by USA Fencing
for disagreeing with its transgender policy that I felt scared
to speak openly online or with friends in the fencing
community.
I reached out to a church friend asking what I should do.
We prayed together and asked God if it is His will that I
protest, that he pair me with Redmond in a bout that following
day. The next morning, I found myself on the platform against
him, and I stood down.
Speaking out on this issue has made me a target for
harassment and violence, as well as cost me friends. I have
decided to step away from the sport I love, at least for now,
as well because USA Fencing has fostered an environment where I
am unwelcome in my own category. It is culturally acceptable to
bully and shame women who speak up for other women.
I should not have had to make this sacrifice. Women deserve
to be treated fairly in sport. We deserve opportunities to
train, compete, and win in women's category set aside for
women. We deserve this at the lowest level of sport, all the
way through elite Olympic competition. I hope that by taking a
stand and raising awareness of the misogyny in our sport I can
help ensure other women and girls do not have to take such
risks to receive the most basic protections in sports.
Ms. Greene. Thank you, Ms. Turner.
I now recognize Ms. McNabb for her opening statement.
STATEMENT OF PAYTON MCNABB
FORMER HIGH SCHOOL ATHLETE
AMBASSADOR FOR INDEPENDENT WOMEN
Ms. McNabb. Good afternoon, Chairwoman Greene and Ranking
Member Stansbury and Members of the Committee. Thank you for
inviting me to appear today. My name is Payton McNabb, and I am
a sports Ambassador for the Independent Women's Forum. We are a
non-profit organization that exists to expand support for
policy solutions that actually enhance people's opportunities
and well-being. Independent Women's motto is ``Tell her story,
change the world.'' Today, I am here to share my story.
I am a female athlete from Murphy, North Carolina, who had
my love of playing sports taken away from me. Since 2022,
following a serious but avoidable injury, I have been speaking
across the country, sharing my story, and advocating for
protections for women and girls' hard-earned rights to equal
opportunity, fair play, privacy, and safety.
Like many other little girls, I grew up playing sports. As
soon as I could walk, my dad enrolled me and my siblings in
various sports. I am incredibly thankful for that because
participating in athletics has afforded me so many life lessons
and given me valuable skills.
In high school, I played volleyball, basketball, and my
favorite sport, softball. I was excited about the prospect of
playing softball in college, but that day never came. My
athletic career was hindered and cut short because I was forced
to compete against a male athlete on an opposing high school
women's volleyball team on September 1, 2022. I went into this
game knowing that there was a male opponent, but I felt
helpless and had no idea what to do. Neither I, my team, nor
the administration agreed that we should be playing against a
male, but the game went on.
Toward the end of the game, the male athlete went up to
spike the ball, and it came right at my face, slamming into my
head. The force of the ball knocked me down unconscious while
my body lay in a fencing position on the court. A fencing
position is how your body reacts to a serious brain injury.
Everything was dark to me. The auditorium was absolutely
quiet, and my teammates were scared. That was my last day
playing volleyball. Medical professionals informed me and my
family of the heavy news that I suffered a traumatic brain
injury, a brain bleed, and my body was experiencing partial
paralysis on my right side. The doctors could not confirm how
long it would take for my body to recover. It could take months
or even years, and they could not confirm whether I would 100
percent ever be back.
While I have learned to navigate my new normal, there are
several challenges that I deal with on a daily basis: severe
headaches, balance issues, vision impairment, and, as my
parents say, I am just not the same kid. It is completely
aggravating because the injury I suffered was 100 percent
avoidable if only my rights as a female athlete had been more
important than a man's feelings.
Since then, I have chosen to use my voice to advocate for
girls nationwide, especially for my younger sister, Avery. I
have decided to turn my pain into purpose. I played a role in
helping pass the Fairness in Women's Sports Act in North
Carolina legislature, although it was initially vetoed by
former Governor Roy Cooper, who ironically has three daughters
of his own.
Since speaking out, I have heard from so many girls. They
see it happening in their schools, male athletes competing in
women's sports. The fear of being severely injured by a male
athlete who is undisputedly, on average, bigger, faster, and
stronger than the average female is real.
I want you all to know that this issue is very real. I did
not realize how big it was until it personally affected me.
What we are talking about is reality and basic truth. Men have
an inherent biological advantage over women when it comes to
sports. The advantage is particularly prominent with respect to
the activities where speed, size, power, strength, or
cardiorespiratory characteristics determine performance.
Males jump approximately 25 percent higher than females.
Males throw about 25 percent further than females. Males run 11
percent faster than females. Males accelerate about 20 percent
faster than females. Males punch 30 to 162 percent harder than
females. Males are around 30 percent stronger than females of
equivalent stature and mass. This is undeniable, and many more
biological statistics can be found in Independent Women's
competition report.
I was so pleased to be at the White House on February 5
when President Trump signed the executive order entitled
``Keeping Men Out of Women's Sports.'' Finally, we saw a
President act to make sure that sports competition for women is
fair and safe.
Now we need laws at the state level that define women and
keep women's sports safe for women. Today, there are 27 states
that have legislation protecting women's sports, and more than
1/3 of the Nation also defines sex-based words across their
state laws. All 50 states should have this sort of legislation.
I am so proud of the progress being made in the states that
are protecting their female athletes. I will continue to speak
out about my experience with the hope that I might be able to
protect the next young woman athlete from being injured. There
should never be another Payton McNabb.
Thank you for having this hearing today so that my story
can be shared.
Ms. Greene. Thank you, Ms. McNabb.
I now recognize Mr. Lehfeldt for his opening statement.
STATEMENT OF DAMIEN LEHFELDT
CHAIRMAN OF THE BOARD
USA FENCING
Mr. Lehfeldt. Thank you, Chairwoman Greene, Ranking Member
Stansbury, and other Members of the Subcommittee. My name is
Damien Lehfeldt, and since September 2024, I have been the
Chair of the Board of Directors for USA Fencing. I am proud to
represent USA Fencing at today's hearing.
I understand USA Fencing's CEO, who has knowledge of the
operational day-to-day activities of the organization, was
prepared to testify but that the Subcommittee preferred I
appear instead, as made clear by its subpoena. I am pleased to
be here and will do my best to provide you with the information
you seek as you consider this important topic.
As you know, USA Fencing is a national governing body for
fencing. It supports over 700 affiliated clubs and 45,000
members. Like other sports, fencing promotes confidence and
respect, and it encourages hard work, training, and discipline.
I have been the grateful recipient of fencing's benefit for
over 30 years. As an A-rated competitor, a referee, and as a
coach, I have worked to bring fencing's benefits to all
Americans.
Although it was adopted before I joined the board, USA
Fencing's transgender participation policy had that same goal.
We recognize, however, that gender participation in sports is a
complex topic. It requires consideration of numerous
viewpoints. Considerations of safety and fairness are
paramount.
I understand that in developing its transgender
participation policy, USA Fencing drew on its long experience
with mixed gender competition where men and women have safely
and fairly competed against each other for decades. USA Fencing
also consulted the practices and policies of other NGBs, as
well as those of the IOC, the USOPC, and fencing's
International Federation, known as the FIE.
The IOC and FIE policies were particularly important. As an
NGB, USA Fencing is governed by the Ted Stevens Act, which
forbids NGBs from adopting eligibility criteria that are more
strict than those of the Sports International Federation. The
FIE does not ban transgender participation. As a result, I
understand that the consensus among NGBs, including USA
Fencing, is that a ban on transgender participation could
violate the Ted Stevens Act.
As Chairwoman Greene pointed out, I have been a vocal
advocate for transgender participation in fencing. Those are my
own personal views. My actions as Chair, however, are guarded
by the best interests of the organization and take
consideration of the diverse viewpoints held by our members.
I want to emphasize USA Fencing's commitment to safety and
fairness. I know that in other sports some athletes have been
severely injured in competition involving transgender athletes.
Any significant injury in competition is a tragedy, and my
heart goes out to athletes like Ms. McNabb, who have suffered
such injuries. But thankfully, that has not been our experience
in fencing. USA Fencing has long sponsored mixed gender
competition, where men and women compete against each other.
Those bouts show that mixed gender competition, in fencing at
least, does not pose any significant safety risks above and
beyond single gender fencing competition. The same is true for
fencing involving transgender participation.
Additionally, while some attributes more common in men such
as height and physical strength can certainly confer an
advantage in a fencing bout, women more commonly exhibit other
advantageous traits such as flexibility and agility.
Ultimately, fencing is a sport of strategy and technique.
Those elements will most frequently determine who prevails. And
when it comes to strategy and technique, neither sex has any
inherent advantage. Transgender status thus does not appear to
confer any inherent advantage over a cisgender fencer.
Cisgender women have beaten transgender women in 55 percent of
the bouts for which USA Fencing has data.
I was disappointed to learn that, following the Cherry
Blossom Tournament last month, Ms. Turner has decided to take a
break from fencing. I hope she will reconsider. To be clear,
USA Fencing has not banned Ms. Turner. She remains free to
enter tournaments and free to compete.
Regardless, the response to Ms. Turner's bout underscores
the importance of this issue and the need for reasoned
discussion. USA Fencing welcomes that discussion. There can
never be too much conversation about how to make our sport
better.
And so, I want to be clear that if the law, research, or
international consensus changes, USA Fencing is prepared to
amend its participation requirements. We have been proactive in
this area. After months of discussion, USA Fencing recently
adopted a contingent transgender participation policy that will
go into effect if the law or regulations change.
I am happy to answer your questions. Thank you.
Ms. Greene. I now recognize Ms. Goss Graves for her opening
statement.
STATEMENT OF FATIMA GOSS GRAVES
PRESIDENT AND CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER
NATIONAL WOMEN'S LAW CENTER
Ms. Goss Graves. Good afternoon, Chair Greene, Ranking
Member Stansbury, and Members of the Subcommittee. My name is
Fatima Goss Graves, and I am president and CEO at the National
Women's Law Center. We have been around since 1972 when Title
IX was first enacted, and we have been working to create equal
opportunity for women and girls in sports and in society ever
since.
Women and girls face many obstacles to equal opportunity in
sports, fewer financial resources than men's programs, worse
facilities, endemic sexual abuse, and student athletes facing
these persistent inequities are among the more than 12,000
people who have complained about discrimination in school but
who actually really cannot pursue justice because the Trump
Administration has laid off half the staff whose jobs at the
Department of Education it was to respond to these complaints.
Students, including disabled kids, survivors of campus sexual
assault, and other forms of discrimination are now basically in
a situation where their complaints are being warehoused. So,
for over 50 years, the National Women's Law Center has been
fighting for equality and will continue to fight until every
girl has the same chance to play as everyone else.
And as an expert on women's rights in sports and in
society, I want to be clear here. Transgender women do not pose
a threat to women's sports. Transgender women belong in sports.
And I am here because I care about all women and girls in
sport. And I know that bullying trans kids and creating panic
about the existence of trans people will not make us safer. It
will not solve any of the problems that I named about inequity
in sports. And the fixation on harming trans kids, it will not
fix the problems of the American people.
Because at the National Women's Law Center, we hear from
people every day about the real problems that they are facing.
They are concerned about reproductive freedom. They are
struggling to put food on the table. They are agonizing about
how to care for aging loved ones.
Hardworking folks around the country, from Texas to Georgia
to Tennessee to California, we hear from folks who are worried
that there is a budget in this Congress that would demolish
programs like SNAP, Head Start, Medicaid, and generally make
their lives harder. And they are looking for an end to attacks
on schools, on healthcare, childcare, on workplace safety.
Instead, you know, over the last few years, there has been
this nonstop effort to convince the public that including
transgender women in sports harms cisgender women and harms all
people in society. But anti-trans sports fans, they actually
harm all women. And I have just a few examples that I want to
name. For example, denying trans kids the chance to find
teammates who have their back, that is harmful. Or harassing
Black and Brown women and girls for not being, you know,
feminine enough, that is harmful. School officials secretly
investigating girls' gender to make sure that they are feminine
enough to play, that is harmful and that is dangerous. And yes,
those things are already happening.
For example, after Utah passed a trans sports ban, a state
school board member posted a picture of a high school student
athlete on social media suggesting that she was transgender.
She was not. But she faced such intense cyber bullying and
threats to herself and to her family, they had to actually get
police protection.
So, as president and CEO of the National Women's Law
Center, it could not be more clear to me. Anti-trans bans, they
hurt all women. They are wrong. We will not let them be enacted
in the name of protecting women because they do not protect
women. They harm us all, and it is discrimination, period. And
if the Subcommittee wants to defend women, the National Women's
Law Center definitely has ideas about that, ideas that will
actually help, ideas that will combat the real threats to women
and girls' safety and equality today.
Trans women in sports, it is just not one of them. Thank
you.
Ms. Greene. We will now begin the 5-minute question period
of the hearing.
I would like to remind the Members that Mr. Lehfeldt is
here under a duly issued subpoena to answer questions at
today's hearing after refusing to appear voluntarily.
I now recognize myself for 5 minutes for the purpose of
asking questions.
No one is here today to harm transgenders. We are here to
defend girls and women, and we are here to defend Title IX and
to uphold President Trump's executive order that all biological
males stay out of girls' and women's sports.
Here displayed behind me is the post that Mr. Lehfeldt put
up. Mr. Lehfeldt came in here today saying that this is game
day. You are right, Mr. Lehfeldt, this is game day.
Under the Ted Stevens Act, USA Fencing and other national
governing bodies that are authorized to oversee individual
sports on a national level have a certain obligation. One such
duty is to provide support and encouragement for participation
by women where separate programs for male and female athletes
are conducted on a national basis. Another statutory duty is to
promote a safe environment in sports that is free from abuse of
any amateur athlete, including emotional, physical, and sexual
abuse.
Mr. Lehfeldt, as the Board Chair of USA Fencing, surely you
are aware of these legal requirements. That means you believe
that forcing a woman to compete against a biological man
promotes a safe environment that is free from emotional abuse.
Is that correct?
Ms. Stansbury. One moment. a point of order, please, Madam
Chair.
Ms. Greene. You are not. OK. What is your----
Ms. Stansbury. Madam Chair, I have a point of order. The
document that you have up behind you is a misrepresentation of
the actual post. It appears that you are trying to misrepresent
a witness here who you used subpoena powers against.
Ms. Greene. Ms. Stansbury. Ms. Stansbury.
Ms. Stansbury. This----
Ms. Greene. This is not a point of order.
Ms. Stansbury. This is the actual picture that she has
direct----
Ms. Greene. Ms. Stansbury, you are not recognized.
Ms. Stansbury [continuing]. Input on----
Ms. Greene. Ms. Stansbury, you are not recognized. Ms.
Stansbury, you are not recognized.
Ms. Stansbury. Madam Chairwoman----
Ms. Greene. This is not----
Ms. Stansbury. You are misrepresenting the truth.
Ms. Greene [continuing]. A point of order. Ms. Stansbury--
--
Ms. Stansbury. You are misrepresenting----
Ms. Greene [continuing]. This is not a point of order.
Ms. Stansbury [continuing]. What this Committee does. You
are misrepresenting the witnesses----
Ms. Greene. Ms. Stansbury.
Ms. Stansbury [continuing]. You are misrepresenting policy.
You are misrepresenting everything.
Ms. Greene. Ms. Stansbury, you are not recognized. You are
not recognized. That is not a point of order. You are abusing
the rules of this Committee.
This is the post of Mr. Lehfeldt that he posted himself on
his own social media, and that is exactly why we have it
displayed here today because Mr. Lehfeldt believes that he can
take away the opportunities for women to compete in USA
Fencing. And he thinks this is game day to defend biological
men.
Now, we are going to return to my time as Chair of this
Committee.
Ms. Turner, refusing to compete against a man cost you a
12-month probation. Did you feel you were in a safe
environment, free from abuse when you were told you must
compete against a man in an all-out competition?
Ms. Turner. No.
Ms. Greene. No, that was not free from emotional abuse.
Ms. McNabb, when a biological man spiked a ball into your
head, were you free from physical or emotional abuse?
Ms. McNabb. I was not.
Ms. Greene. Ms. McNabb, did you feel you were placed in a
safe environment when you faced a biological male in a girls'
volleyball game?
Ms. McNabb. No, I did not feel safe.
Ms. Greene. Ms. Turner, were you safe when you were forced
to go up against a biological male in your sport?
Ms. Turner. No, I was not.
Ms. Greene. Mr. Lehfeldt, do you think your perception of
what constitutes a safe environment for women is more valid
than that of a woman testifying here today?
Mr. Lehfeldt. Congresswoman, thank you for your question.
There was a study that was published in 2010 regarding the
safety of sports in the Olympic movement. There were 51 sports
that were assessed as part of that study----
Ms. Greene. That is a yes or no question, Mr. Lehfeldt.
Mr. Lehfeldt. Ma'am, it is a----
Ms. Greene. Is that your perception? You are sitting next
to----
Mr. Lehfeldt. It is a more nuanced answer.
Ms. Greene [continuing]. A young woman who received a brain
injury from a biological male. Is it safe to compete against
biological males? Yes or no, Mr. Lehfeldt.
Mr. Lehfeldt. What happened to Ms.----
Ms. Greene. Yes or no?
Mr. Lehfeldt. What happened to Ms. McNabb was----
Ms. Greene. I will take that as a no. Mr. Lehfeldt, do you
think forcing a woman to change in front of a man in a locker
room is abusive? Yes or no?
Mr. Lehfeldt. Congresswoman, I am not sure I follow the
question.
Ms. Greene. Do you want your daughter to change in front of
biological men in locker rooms? Yes or no?
Mr. Lehfeldt. My daughter is not really something that
should be part of this hearing, respectfully.
Ms. Greene. If you are not a quick no on that, we are going
to take that as a no.
We are going to switch gears to USA Fencing site selection
policy. You are the Chair of USA Fencing. You should be
familiar. Mr. Lehfeldt, what does abortion have to do with
fencing?
Mr. Lehfeldt. Congresswoman, that policy was passed before
I got on the board. However, when----
Ms. Greene. You are the Chair of the Board now. What does
abortion have to do with fencing, Mr. Lehfeldt?
Mr. Lehfeldt. I am on the board. You are correct. And I
offered an amendment to that policy back in December,
Congresswoman, that allowed for more flexibility at the city
level.
Ms. Greene. What, to get an abortion while you are at
fencing competitions? I do not think so.
Mr. Lehfeldt. And it also allowed for better convenience,
so we enhanced the policy under my leadership under the board.
Ms. Greene. More convenience to Planned Parenthood centers?
Mr. Lehfeldt, why does USA Fencing state abortion policies and
LGBTQ policies in its site selection process to determine where
tournaments are held? That is part of your site selection
process is abortion availability and states and cities that are
friendly to LGBTQ policies. How is that part of USA Fencing?
Mr. Lehfeldt. Congresswoman, we try to have tournaments in
sites that are safe for all of our members, period.
Ms. Greene. So, you do not think red states are safe for
fencing athletes?
Mr. Lehfeldt. Red states are absolutely safe. And we
regularly host tournaments there, including Texas, Ohio,
Missouri.
Ms. Greene. No, your site selection policies are based on
abortion availability and LGBTQ availability, not on fencing,
not on your sport.
Now, let us go a little bit further with this.
Ms. Crockett. Madam Chairwoman, your time has expired.
Ms. Greene. You are not recognized, Ms. Crockett.
Mr. Lehfeldt, you wrote a blog post where you said that 1
day your daughter might compete----
Mr. Lynch. Madam Chair, a point of order----
Ms. Greene. This is my time, and I am the Chair of the
Committee.
Mr. Lynch. Well, no, that was your time. Your time is over.
And now we are asking, are we----
Mr. Cloud. The Chair has discretion to define time----
Ms. Greene. I have lost time----
Mr. Cloud [continuing]. And you know it, sir.
Ms. Greene. I have lost time.
Mr. Lynch. As long as we have that understanding, that is
fine.
Ms. Greene. I have lost time from all this disruption.
Mr. Burchett. I yield 2 1/2 minutes to the chairlady.
Ms. Greene. Mr. Lehfeldt, you wrote a blog post where you
said that 1 day your daughter might compete against a
transgender woman, a biological man. You said that if she did,
you might win or she might lose, but whatever the result, you
hope she does not care about the outcome because the important
thing is that both she and her opponent enjoy the match. That
is what you wrote in your little trans manifesto.
But you came here today to win, and you came here today to
defeat women in their own sport. So, as you stand here before
this Committee today, you are a man that would tell your
daughter to lose and enjoy it to a biological man.
My time has expired. And with that, I recognize Ms.
Stansbury to defend all the trans.
Ms. Crockett. Point of order. Out of curiosity, is the
Chairwoman allowed to editorialize before every speaker on the
Democratic side speaks, or is that part of her time which we
know that she went over?
Ms. Greene. It is not a point of order. You are taking Ms.
Stansbury's time. I know you are trying to be Chair of
Oversight, but Ms. Stansbury is the Ranking Member.
Ms. Crockett. Chair would be better on this side.
Ms. Greene. Yes, it is----
Ms. Greene. I do agree with that.
Ms. Greene. It is Ms. Stansbury's time.
Ms. Stansbury. Thank you, Madam Chair.
As you can see, this is a hearing full of performance
artists, not legislators.
To our witnesses and guests, I do appreciate you coming
today, but this is not the venue for this conversation, and our
colleagues know that across the aisle. That is part of why the
distraction of the gaveling and the yelling and the performance
art is happening here today because this is not an oversight
hearing. This is not what the jurisdiction of the Oversight
Committee is. And the Chairman and the Chairwoman both know
that. And they both know that a little over 100 days ago when
Republicans were clamoring to show Donald Trump and Elon Musk
that they were going to carry their water here in Congress,
they created this Subcommittee to do Elon Musk's bidding.
But now that he is so unpopular that 2/3 of Americans are
opposed to DOGE and Elon Musk, the honeymoon is over, my
friends. And so, what are they doing with the DOGE
Subcommittee? They are bullying trans kids. They are talking
about things that have absolutely nothing to do with government
oversight or efficiency or the economy or the reality that
Donald Trump is tanking the economy and the reality that
Americans are pissed as hell and are marching in the streets.
And they are turning the DOGE Subcommittee into apparently
now a fencing oversight committee. We are not even going to
call it the DOGE Subcommittee anymore. This is called the
fencing oversight committee. Welcome to the fencing oversight
committee.
But in reality, we know this is all about bullying trans
kids as they are literally over on the Floor debating renaming
the Gulf of Mexico this week because they have no real agenda
other than tanking the economy, taking away healthcare, taking
away food out of the mouths of children, and basically
distracting the American people while they prepare the largest
tax break for billionaires ever in the history of this country.
But it is not enough to just obsessively talk and think
about trans people, which obviously are living rent-free in
their minds. Donald Trump has put into place over a dozen
executive orders and actions bullying trans people. Here this
Committee is trying to take their own punch. They are trying to
keep trans people from using bathrooms inside the Capitol. I
mean, all of this is part of their regular playbook. Do really
bad evil things, and then distract the American people by doing
ridiculous things in public spaces like this.
So, I am very grateful to Ms. Goss Graves for being here to
break through the noise, to talk about real issues that are
affecting our communities because, among the things that affect
women, girls, all people are the cuts to healthcare, the cuts
to education, the cuts to vital programs that our people depend
on. But what I think is so important is to highlight the ways
in which using public spaces like this to bully trans people
creates a lack of safety for the LGBTQ+ community.
And so, Ms. Goss Graves, can you talk about how exactly
what is happening here today normalizes hate and how that
translates into violence and hate against the LGBTQ+ community?
Ms. Goss Graves. You know, this is exactly my deep worry.
Over the last couple of years, we have seen in states around
the country and now in this body and from the President using
government to attack some of our most vulnerable people. And
the hateful rhetoric translates to violence. It is trans young
people who are experiencing violence in school. And it also
means that we have seen an increase in incidents of suicide.
So, when I think about young people today who may be tuning
in, I want to reaffirm that their existence is OK and that they
are supported. But I also want to say very, very clearly, even
though people have been spun up in this frenzy, that all the
problems in the world are apparently now caused by trans folks
existing, that is simply not true.
And if we have a very serious and concerted effort to
address rising costs, to address access to healthcare, to
address the experiences that people are having in this country
and who are begging for help, this body actually could be doing
that in an oversight way even. It would be especially important
to hear this body do that so that we could have a conversation
around what has the impact been for people in this country, for
women and girls, because of DOGE. Those are the things I hear
about all the time.
Ms. Stansbury. Yes, thank you very much. And I also want
to----
Ms. Greene. The gentlelady's time has expired.
Ms. Stansbury. I also want to acknowledge your
acknowledgement of----
Ms. Greene. The gentlelady's time has expired. I now
recognize----
Mr. Lynch. Madam Chair, do we not have a----
Ms. Stansbury. Madam Chair----
Ms. Greene. Mrs. McClain----
Ms. Stansbury [continuing]. You spoke for over a minute----
Ms. Greene [continuing]. From Michigan.
Mr. Lynch. Point of order.
Ms. Stansbury [continuing]. More than your allocated time.
Ms. Greene. You took a minute of my time, wasting my time
on a non-point of order. The gentlelady's time has expired.
Ms. Stansbury. Madam Chair, the clock----
Ms. Greene. I now recognize----
Ms. Stansbury [continuing]. Was not running during the
point of order.
Ms. Greene. Mrs. McClain from Michigan.
Mr. Lynch. Point----
Ms. Stansbury. Your time was not wasted, and to the trans
community----
Ms. Greene. I now recognize----
Ms. Stansbury [continuing]. We stand with you----
Ms. Greene [continuing]. Mrs. McClain from Michigan.
Ms. Stansbury [continuing]. With the LGBTQ+----
Mr. Lynch. Madam Chair?
Ms. Stansbury [continuing]. Community. We stand with you--
--
Ms. Greene. Ms. Stansbury----
Ms. Stansbury [continuing]. And you can break----
Ms. Greene [continuing]. Your time has expired.
Mr. Lynch. Madam Chair?
Ms. Stansbury [continuing]. My eardrums all you want, Madam
Chair, but we stand with the LGBTQ+ community. And you can
gavel me till----
Ms. Greene. Order.
Ms. Stansbury [continuing]. The cows come home----
Ms. Greene. This hearing will come to order.
Ms. Stansbury [continuing]. And it will not stop it.
Ms. Greene. This hearing will come to order.
Mr. Lynch. Madam Chair, the question----
Ms. Greene. This hearing will come to order.
Mr. Lynch. Madam Chair, I just----
Ms. Greene. This hearing will come to order.
I now recognize----
Mr. Lynch. A point of order.
Ms. Greene [continuing]. Mrs. McClain from Michigan.
Mr. Lynch. I just have a point of order.
Mrs. McClain. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Let me tell you----
Mr. Lynch. Madam Chair, I had a point of order.
Ms. Greene. What is your point of order?
Mr. Lynch. Could we just have the timekeeper, you know, log
the time between both the Democrats and Republicans, and then
we rebalance them so that we each have equal time? That is
pretty basic.
Ms. Greene. We will consider that, thank you, but stop----
Mr. Lynch. No, no, no, no, no, no, no.
Ms. Greene. No, no, no, no, you took----
Mr. Lynch. This does----
Ms. Greene [continuing]. A minute of my time.
Mr. Lynch. That is not a suggestion.
Ms. Greene. All right. OK. Enough.
Mr. Lynch. Those are the rules.
Ms. Greene. Enough. Enough.
Mr. Lynch. No, no, no, no, no.
Ms. Greene. No, you are wasting your time.
Mr. Lynch. Hey, look----
Ms. Greene. That is not----
Mr. Lynch [continuing]. Either we go----
Ms. Greene. We are keeping----
Mr. Lynch [continuing]. By the rules, or we----
Ms. Greene [continuing]. Equal time.
Mr. Lynch [continuing]. Are out of here.
Ms. Greene. We are keeping equal time.
Mr. Lynch. Those----
Mrs. McClain. The door is open.
Mr. Lynch. All right.
Ms. Greene. Mrs. McClain from Michigan is now recognized.
Mrs. McClain. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Let me tell you what I am here for. I am here to protect
women and girls. And for all of you young women and girls
watching today, I hear you. I hear your stories. I hear your
bullying stories. I hear your uncomfortableness. Because you
see, sometimes young women and girls get trampled over.
But let me tell you what I am here for. I am here as a
mother and as a coach and as an athlete to stand up for the
rights of women and especially young girls. That is what I am
here for.
And in 1972, Title IX of the Education Amendments prohibits
gender discrimination in all educational programs receiving
Federal funds. And I am here today because women have had to
fight for every God-given right. And I will be damned if we are
going to go back on that. When biological men invade women's
spaces, our rights are violated, and our spaces are violated.
Now, my colleagues on the other side of the aisle
constantly talk about following the science, but this makes it
clear that this is merely a disingenuous slogan. So let us
follow the science for a moment, not opinions, but science.
So, Ms. Graves, what is the average difference in skeletal
muscle between biological men and biological women?
Ms. Goss Graves. So, I am definitely not a scientist, but I
can tell you about the studies that have been done looking at
transgender athletes, cisgender athletes.
Mrs. McClain. That is a great answer to a question I did
not ask.
Ms. Goss Graves. I----
Mrs. McClain. So, perhaps I can help you.
Ms. Goss Graves. So, the answer is--the answer I think
where you are trying to go is, is there an inherent advantage
for cisgender women----
Mrs. McClain. Is there a biological difference between men
and women?
Ms. Goss Graves. [continuing]. In sports in all contexts,
and the answer is no. Right now----
Mrs. McClain. OK.
Ms. Goss Graves. The answer is no. And so, I----
Mrs. McClain. OK. Let me educate you.
Ms. Goss Graves. And the reason----
Mrs. McClain. OK.
Ms. Goss Graves. [continuing]. That I can tell you that----
Mrs. McClain. Reclaiming my time.
Ms. Goss Graves. [continuing]. The answer is no is because
UCLA----
Mrs. McClain. Reclaiming my time.
Ms. Goss Graves. [continuing]. Has studied this.
Mrs. McClain. Reclaiming my time.
Ms. Goss Graves. They did a study of----
Ms. Greene. The gentlewoman has reclaimed her time. Ms.
McClain is recognized.
Mrs. McClain. So, I will educate you. I will tell you, men
have 30 to 40 percent more skeletal muscle than biological
women. That is not right. That is not wrong. That just is what
it is.
I was going to ask you what is the difference in upper-body
strength, but I do not think you know that either, so I will
answer that question for you as well. Biological men exhibit 20
to 50 percent greater upper-body strength and 25 to 30 percent
lower lower-body strength than biological women. That is just
the science.
Ms. Graves, you stated your organization's mission is to
ensure safety and opportunity for all girls. Was Payton McNabb
safe on September 1 of 2022?
Ms. Goss Graves. It sounds like she definitely was not, and
what happened----
Mrs. McClain. Thank you.
Ms. Goss Graves. [continuing]. To her was tragic. I would
argue, though----
Mrs. McClain. Thank you.
Ms. Goss Graves. [continuing]. That the answer is to ensure
that people cannot spike volleyballs into people's heads. That
seems unsafe no matter----
Mrs. McClain. Thank you for your answer----
Ms. Goss Graves. [continuing]. Who is spiking the ball.
Mrs. McClain [continuing]. Ms. Graves. So, I will reclaim
my time on that.
So, here is the inherent problem. If I would say I am a
6'2'' blonde supermodel, you agree with that statement? I know
my husband does, but does that make it true?
Ms. Goss Graves. I am not sure how tall you are because you
are sitting down, but I am assuming you are not blonde.
Mrs. McClain. Do I look like a 6'2'' blonde supermodel?
Ms. Goss Graves. No.
Mrs. McClain. OK. But I identify as one, OK? Just because I
identify as one does not make it true, but let us go ahead and
say for a moment it is true. The issue that I have for the
young girls is you can live in your reality. You can live in
your reality, but when your reality intrudes on my safety and
puts another person at harm or in harm's way, that is when I
have a problem with it. When you want to live in your distorted
reality, you can do that, but that does not mean everybody else
has to do that either, because I will ask you one other
question. Can a 43-year-old man identify as a 13-year-old boy,
Ms. Graves?
Ms. Goss Graves. Can a 43----
Mrs. McClain. Can a 43-year-old man live in his reality of
identifying as a 13-year-old boy?
Ms. Goss Graves. This question makes me understand that
you----
Mrs. McClain. No, this question is a question that you need
to answer that you refuse. If we are going to be who we want to
be, can a 43-year-old man identify as a 13-year-old boy?
Ms. Greene. The witness can answer, but the gentlelady's
time has expired.
Ms. Goss Graves. So, here is the thing. It is absolutely--
--
Mrs. McClain. It is a yes or no.
Ms. Goss Graves. So, I actually--I am hoping that some
people are watching, and so that is why I am trying to provide
some context----
Ms. Greene. The gentlelady's time has expired. This is a
yes or no question.
Ms. Goss Graves. OK. I would have loved to give a fuller
answer. Here is my answer to you. The answer is no, that an
adult cannot be a child. It----
Mrs. McClain. Why? They identify as one.
Ms. Greene. OK. Thank you very much.
Ms. Goss Graves. There is----
Ms. Greene. Thank you for your----
Ms. Goss Graves. If you would like me to provide----
Ms. Greene [continuing]. Answering the question.
Ms. Goss Graves. [continuing]. A fuller answer, I am----
Ms. Greene. The gentlelady's time has expired.
Ms. Goss Graves. [continuing]. Really happy to do that.
Ms. Greene. I now recognize--the witness will suspend.
I now recognize Ms. Norton from Washington, DC. for 5
minutes.
Ms. Norton. This newly formed Subcommittee has been nothing
but a sham so far this Congress, but this hearing takes this
Subcommittee to a new low, one of hate and bigotry.
I have spent my life fighting for civil and human rights of
all Americans. I did so in the civil rights and women's rights
movements as a lawyer, as Chair of the New York City Commission
on Human Rights, and as Chair of the United States Equal
Employment Opportunity Commission. And I do so now as the only
Member of Congress representing the more than 700,000 residents
of the District of Columbia who are denied voting
representation in Congress and full self-government, despite
paying full Federal taxes.
I am disgusted this Subcommittee would use its power to
target transgender people, but since this Subcommittee is
intent on talking about safety, let us talk about it.
Ms. Goss Graves, last year, the Center for American
Progress found that nearly half of transgender adults
experience discrimination in public spaces. What kind of
discrimination do transgender people face?
Ms. Goss Graves. So, transgender people face a wide amount
of discrimination. They have trouble getting hired. They are
more likely to experience harassment at work, in school, in
other settings. They experience violence. Disproportionately
transgender women experience violence.
So, the types and forms of discrimination that the Equal
Employment Opportunity Commission used to track thoroughly is
vast and could and should be the subject again of this
Committee. The Committee could look at the wide range of
discrimination that transgender individuals are experiencing at
work and what is happening now at the EEOC now that it is not
treating that type of discrimination in the same way that it
used to.
Ms. Norton. Please discuss the violence transgender people
face.
Ms. Goss Graves. Well, it is everything from sexual
violence to assault in a lot of different types of spaces,
spaces that, you know, one might feel safe or nearly. For trans
people, especially when the rhetoric has increased, especially
when, at the highest parts of our government, they are
suggesting that it is OK to insult and to make it seem like
transgender people are less than human. You know, I think both
our laws and, you know, my moral compass requires that anytime
there is an organized effort to demonize a small group of
people--our laws have something to say about that. We should
scrutinize the why. We should make sure there is not harm.
But my own moral compass, I will say, has something to say
about that, about anytime a group of people experiences the
level of hate and discrimination and violence. It is up to all
of us to show up.
Ms. Norton. Discrimination and violence should never be
acceptable. We cannot allow these against anyone. Today's
attack on transgender people is a blatant attempt by the
Republican majority to distract from the real harm they are
causing Americans through their disastrous policies. They are
proposing taking away healthcare and food assistance from tens
of millions of Americans to give tax cuts to the wealthy and
corporations.
Ms. Goss Graves, if Republicans make these cuts to Medicaid
and food assistance, how will this affect the health and well-
being of women across this country?
Ms. Goss Graves. It will be disastrous. Almost half of
births in this country are paid for by Medicaid. Women around
the country and their families' lives can be upended by having
access to healthcare 1 day and then not the other.
And it will also change access to healthcare in entire
regions. There are large parts of this country, especially in
rural areas, that do not have enough healthcare systems. And if
Medicaid is gutted, that will only make for more healthcare
deserts.
And the last thing that I just want to say about this is
that Medicaid is sort of the backbone of long-term care, so----
Ms. Greene. The gentlelady's time has expired.
I now recognize Mr. Cloud from Texas.
Mr. Cloud. Thank you, Madam Chair, and I appreciate you
holding this hearing.
And I especially want to thank Ms. Turner and Ms. McNabb
for being here and telling your stories, not only coming before
Congress and talking to us, which is bold and heroic in its own
right, but taking the stand that you have taken, and, Ms.
McNabb, for continuing to tell your story. I am sorry that you
have been put in this type of situation where you are at a
critical moment in our history where this is an issue that we
are having to deal with, but I admire you for your courage and
thank you for being there.
As a Committee, we are bringing this up in part because of
the Ted Stevens Act that Mr. Lehfeldt mentioned. The U.S.
Olympic and Paralympic Committee is a congressionally chartered
entity under that act, and the USOPC, therefore, and its NGB
derivatives, the National Governing Boards, have to abide by
Federal law. And so, we have Title IX, which says that these
organizations will not discriminate based on sex.
And then we have, lately, executive orders where President
Trump issued an executive order keeping men out of women's
sports. He did this to rescind the funds from educational
institutions that deprive women and girls of their fair
athletic opportunities and to oppose male competitive
participation in women's sports more broadly for safety,
fairness, dignity, and truth.
It is interesting to note that he referenced in that a
previous executive order, 14168, in which defined a female,
which it seems that the left has a very difficult time doing, a
person belonging at conception to the sex that produces the
large reproductive cell.
And so, we have a pretty clear definition of the guidelines
that you should be operating by and other organizations that
are embracing sports and chartered by, and so, it does fall
under our jurisdiction as Congress to consider whether or not
you and these other organizations should be stripped of your
certification under the Ted Stevens Act, and, so, we have to
continue to look at this and just talk about this issue.
A recent U.N. report that the Chairwoman mentioned notes
that, as of March 2024, over 600 female athletes in more than
400 competitions had lost 890 medals, 29 different sports, to
males, explicitly concluding that males have certain
performance advantages in sports, which Ms. Graves seems to not
agree with. This report also notes that injuries have included
knocked out teeth, concussions resulting in neural impairment,
broken legs, and skull fractures. And it boggles the mind, Ms.
Graves, that, time and time again, what we have is mediocre
male athletes turning into champions in women's sports, and you
continue to think that there is not an advantage. I am puzzled
by that.
Ms. Goss Graves. Is that a question?
Mr. Cloud. Yes----
Ms. Goss Graves. So----
Mr. Cloud. [continuing] How do you----
Ms. Goss Graves. Yes, well, first, I just have to say the
idea that someone who identifies as a man would instead live
their entire life as a woman----
Mr. Cloud. That is not answering the question. The question
is----
Ms. Goss Graves. [continuing]. Like it is----
Mr. Cloud [continuing]. How a----
Ms. Goss Graves. [continuing]. The notion----
Mr. Cloud [continuing]. Mediocre competitor becomes a
champion overnight. Did they have a good day?
Ms. Goss Graves. I am just saying the notion is----
Mr. Cloud. I will move on.
Ms. Goss Graves. [continuing]. Sort of absurd.
Mr. Cloud. If you were to compare world-class, world-record
times in track for women's sports compared to the male Texas
high school meet that happened just recently, you would find
that the male high schoolers beat world-record times virtually
in every single race as female world-class record holders
throughout history. As someone who ran track in the past, I
wonder if I can retroactively identify and be recertified as a
world-class world champion as opposed to the mediocre----
Ms. Goss Graves. You cannot----
Mr. Cloud [continuing]. Track person that I was.
Ms. Goss Graves. [continuing]. Because that is not how the
rules work. And I think that is part of what I have been trying
to explain to you.
Mr. Cloud. I wanted to ask you something, Mr. Lehfeldt,
because the press release from U.S. Fencing talked about how
you came up with your site selection criteria, which the
Chairwoman talked to. But I wanted to dig into it a little bit
because it says your source for analysis was primarily the
equality maps, the Movement Advancement Project. If you go to
this site right now, what you would find on its homepage is a
bunch of voting turnout information, how we could advance
leftist, Marxist agenda, primarily Democrat agenda all
throughout the country. There are maps to do it, ways to be
engaged, all these kind of things. This is not at all any sort
of nonpartisan sporting effort or anything along those lines.
And one thing DOGE has uncovered has been the fact that all
these NGO's have been funded, and thank you, Madam Chairman.
Ms. Greene. Thank you.
Mr. Cloud. I apologize I ran out of time. But the point is
it is a political organization, not any sort of nonpartisan
one.
Ms. Greene. Thank you. The gentleman's time has expired.
Mr. Lynch from Massachusetts is now recognized for 5
minutes.
Mr. Lynch. Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to thank the
witnesses for their willingness to testify before this
Committee and help us with our work.
I do want to go back to the point that the Ranking Member
raised, and she is correct in pointing out about the lack of
jurisdiction of this Subcommittee for the matter before us.
This Subcommittee was created for the opportunity to confront
the economic inefficiencies in our government, and that is
exactly why most Members chose to serve on this Subcommittee
because of the issue involved.
So, this Subcommittee could be focusing on the layoffs that
President Trump has executed, over 200,000 firings of Federal
employees, employees from the EPA, employees from the Social
Security Administration, employees from the Nuclear Security
Agency, employees from the FAA, including air traffic
controllers. The President has fired NIH researchers working on
Alzheimer's and cancer research.
This Subcommittee could be addressing the layoffs of 3,000
workers at the VA. I mean, that does affect the efficiency of
our government programs. President Trump has laid off nurses,
internists, physical therapists, and staff who care for our
wounded veterans all across America. He has even laid off
people from the veteran suicide hotline in the middle of a
veteran suicide crisis. This Subcommittee could be holding
hearings to find out why we have 250,000 veterans on a waiting
list for benefits and treatment at the VA and why veterans
should be waiting months for an appointment.
Veterans' benefits are special, Madam Chair. They are
special obligations of our country because those veterans'
benefits are obligations that exist because of courageous
service previously rendered by our veterans. Every eligible
veteran laying in a VA hospital bed all across this country has
honorably served. By definition, to be eligible for that care,
they have honorably served in uniform on behalf of this
country, on behalf of us all. And from Democrat to Republican
administration, we have always maintained that veterans'
benefits must, must be rendered. We must keep our promise until
now, until this Administration, until now.
We have also been hearing from farmers who are dealing with
Trump's tariffs all across America. We could be addressing the
impacts of the Trump tariffs on all of our states. If those
tariffs are impacting the export market for cranberries in
Massachusetts, I can only imagine what is going on in Iowa and
Georgia and Kansas and Illinois and Indiana, the great state of
Georgia with $83.6 billion in agricultural production last year
and 325,000 agricultural-related jobs. That dwarfs what we have
going on in Massachusetts, and I hear plenty from our farmers
and our bog operators.
Madam Chair, since President Trump launched tariffs against
140 countries at the same time, and then they retaliated
against us, on our farmers, we have seen the landscape change.
Those 140 countries have shifted their major contracts to
places like Brazil, Venezuela, Canada, Europe, and away from
Iowa, Ohio, Georgia, Indiana, and Illinois. That is what we
should be talking about in this Committee.
You know, one of my first cases as an attorney, I
represented a women's swim team at one of our local high
schools, Boston Latin Academy. So, I believe firmly in women's
rights in athletics. We have come too far to let that regress.
But I hope someday we actually have a hearing here to talk
about gender dysphoria or gender incongruence so we can get
doctors and families in there whose families and kids are
suffering from that disorder rather than simply punching down
at some of the weakest people and most vulnerable people in our
society.
Madam Chair, I thank you for your courtesy, and I yield
back.
Ms. Greene. The gentleman yields, and now----
Mr. Cloud. Madam Chair, I had some items to submit for the
record.
Ms. Greene. Yes, go ahead.
Mr. Cloud. I wanted to submit for the record a November 22,
2003, ``Here is the latest on USA Fencing Tournament site
selection.'' It is a press release from the U.S. Fencing
Tournament. The U.S. track and field statement regarding
transgender/transsexual policy, the USA Gymnastics transgender
and non-binary athletic inclusion statement, the U.S.
weightlifting athlete gender inclusion competitive equity and
eligibility policy, U.S. Tennis Association transgender
inclusion policy, and finally, ironically, the National Women's
Soccer League. I am not sure if they know what a women is, but
their policy on transgender athletes.
Ms. Greene. Without objection, so ordered.
I now recognize Mr. Fallon from Texas.
Mr. Fallon. Madam Chair, thank you.
For the next 5 minutes, we are going to live within the
bounds of reality and actually use real science. Human beings
with an XY chromosome will be referred to as male or men. Human
beings with an XX chromosome will be referred to as female or
woman.
Mr. Lehfeldt, what is your current position within USA
Fencing?
Mr. Lehfeldt. I am the Chair of the Board of the Directors,
sir.
Mr. Fallon. OK. And in that role, is it fair to say that
you celebrate transparency and promote fairness?
Mr. Lehfeldt. I would certainly hope so, sir.
Mr. Fallon. All right. Great. Congress has oversight over
USA Fencing. Are you here today to testify of your own
volition?
Mr. Lehfeldt. I am here to testify on behalf of USA
Fencing.
Mr. Fallon. Of your own volition. Did you come voluntarily?
Mr. Lehfeldt. No, sir, I was subpoenaed.
Mr. Fallon. You did not. You had to be subpoenaed. Is that
correct?
Mr. Lehfeldt. Yes, sir.
Mr. Fallon. I have to give you an F on that count, right
here, for transparency. Did you recently change your social
media profile from public to private?
Mr. Lehfeldt. I did, sir.
Mr. Fallon. OK. Was that before or after you got wind that
you might end up being here today?
Mr. Lehfeldt. That was around the time that I was receiving
death threats and antisemitic messages from other people, sir.
Mr. Fallon. Also happened to be right after you found out
that you might be here, correct?
Mr. Lehfeldt. I cannot recall, sir----
Mr. Fallon. You are under oath.
Mr. Lehfeldt [continuing]. Specifically when I went
private.
Mr. Fallon. So, yes, that is April 14, and you did it
after, so I am going to give you another F, two counts for
transparency.
Let us talk about fairness because you said you wanted to
be fair. There are two competitive classes in USA Fencing, yes?
Two divisions, men and women?
Mr. Lehfeldt. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Fallon. Why is that?
Mr. Lehfeldt. There is also a mixed event, I should add. A
mixed event is a plurality of our events.
Mr. Fallon. But to be specific, because we have limited
time, you have a male division and a female division. Is that
correct?
Mr. Lehfeldt. We also have a mixed division, sir.
Mr. Fallon. But do you have a male division and a female
division, yes?
Mr. Lehfeldt. We have a male division----
Mr. Fallon. You do. OK. Thank you.
Mr. Lehfeldt [continuing]. And we have a female division.
We also have----
Mr. Fallon. So----
Mr. Lehfeldt [continuing]. Mixed events, which represent a
plurality of our events.
Mr. Fallon. So, do you allow men to compete against women?
Mr. Lehfeldt. In mixed events, sir.
Mr. Fallon. OK. But, again, there is a distinct class for
just women, yes?
Mr. Lehfeldt. Yes, there is a women's----
Mr. Fallon. Thank you. Thank you.
Mr. Lehfeldt [continuing]. Division, yes, sir.
Mr. Fallon. We are getting somewhere. Now, that is because,
I think you would agree, maybe not, that men inherently have
some physical attributes that give them an advantage. Would you
agree with that?
Mr. Lehfeldt. I would agree to an extent, sir.
Mr. Fallon. OK. So let us go----
Mr. Lehfeldt. There are some studies within fencing that--
--
Mr. Fallon. No, I am going to have to reclaim my time.
Madam Chair, I am going to----
Mr. Lehfeldt. Yes.
Mr. Fallon [continuing]. Reclaim my time. Because, for
instance----
Mr. Lehfeldt. OK.
Mr. Fallon [continuing]. There is increased muscle mass,
generally speaking, with men, which makes them faster and
stronger. They are better adapted with cardiorespiratory
capacity. Lungs, perhaps with endurance, men are generally
taller, have stronger bones, and they have different skeletal
structures. You got to know this. The pelvises in men are
narrower, and the small Q angle that attaches the hip to the
knee joint, that is important, because the narrower that Q
angle is, the more force that you can project. Now, that is
only important in sports that require standing, squatting,
kicking, or pedaling.
And then you also have a sex difference in the angle of the
humerus and the ulna at the elbow. And the narrower and the
smaller that angle is, that projects more force upon extension
in only sports that involve throwing; thrusting, like in
fencing; hitting a bat, racket, or stick.
So, like, for instance, what my colleague said, Will Thomas
was 462nd best male swimmer for 3 years. And then he was
winning events when he competed with women. Female gold
medalists in the 100, 400, and 800 would not even qualify to
compete for the gold in the men's division. The best marathon
female would be 90th against the men. Best triathlete female
would be 50th against men. And Major League Baseball has had
exactly zero women play on an opening day roster. NFL, NHL,
NBA, again, zero.
So, let me ask you this question, because I am very curious
to hear your answer.
Mr. Lehfeldt. Yes, sir.
Mr. Fallon. Do you think it is fair for a man that
identifies as a man to directly compete against a woman?
Mr. Lehfeldt. In a mixed event, sir.
Mr. Fallon. OK. So, you think that is fine? A man can
compete against a woman in the women's division?
Mr. Lehfeldt. In the women's division, sir, they must go
through 1 year of----
Mr. Fallon. Right, right, so I am saying----
Mr. Lehfeldt [continuing]. Hormone replacement therapy.
Mr. Fallon [continuing]. A man that is identifying as a man
cannot. You are not cool with them fencing against women?
Mr. Lehfeldt. Men compete against women in mixed events all
the time, sir. They are a plurality of our events.
Mr. Fallon. And who generally wins those?
Mr. Lehfeldt. The recent data that we pulled showed that
cisgender men prevailed in 64 percent.
Mr. Fallon. So, cisgender men are men, OK? Let us just call
it for what it is. Yes, right.
So, the bottom line is this. Even when you go through
hormone treatments, you know this. It does not reduce your
height, it does not shrink your bones, it does not decrease
your lung capacity, it does not alter your skeletal structure.
There are exactly zero studies in the world that show that any
amount of hormone therapy will ultimately result in parity
between men and women. It does not exist. The IOC just did a
study with 800 men, and even after a year, they retained 83
percent advantage. This is absolute lunacy, it is crazy, but
you crazies, you keep being crazy, and we will see you November
'26. I yield back.
Ms. Greene. Thank you.
Ms. Stansbury. Madam Chair, I would like to ask for
unanimous consent.
Ms. Greene. Without objection, so ordered.
Ms. Stansbury. Well, I would like to ask for unanimous
consent to enter an article from NPR titled, ``What Has DOGE
Done in Trump's First 100 Days?'' into the USA Fencing
Subcommittee of the Oversight Committee.
Ms. Greene. I now recognize Mr. Garcia from California for
5 minutes.
Mr. Garcia. Thank you, Chairwoman. I wanted to start, of
course, by thanking all of our witnesses for being here today.
I appreciate your time.
I have said from the beginning and from our first DOGE
Subcommittee meeting that we have really not talked about
government efficiency or any real serious legislative work, but
even I am surprised that this Subcommittee is now apparently in
charge of policing women's sports. Now, this has nothing to do
with our Committee's jurisdiction, as said earlier, and nothing
to do with helping the American people.
Now, Republicans in Congress are trying to destroy our
healthcare and social safety net, as we have seen them do over
and over again. Elon Musk is destroying critical medical
research programs. We have a measles outbreak. We have an anti-
vax health secretary. But apparently, this Committee wants to
spend its time bullying trans kids and athletes and arguing
about fencing tournaments. This is not only outrageous, it is
also dangerous.
Now, this Committee is supposed to be about saving taxpayer
dollars. And let us be really clear. Mr. Lehfeldt, USA Fencing
does not receive large taxpayer-funded grants and does not
really receive Federal funding. Is that correct?
Mr. Lehfeldt. Sir, we do not receive a penny in Federal
funding.
Mr. Garcia. So, you do not receive a penny of Federal
funding, and we are spending our time in a government
efficiency committee debating a fencing tournament and your
association, of you which receive no Federal dollars.
Let us be clear. All kids and people deserve to be able to
participate in sports. And USA Fencing and other sports have
the right to lay out rules to make sure their sport is fair and
safe. And we know that transgender youth and athletes
experience all kinds of mistreatment because of their gender
identity. This includes bullying in schools, family rejection,
threats of violence even by some in Congress, and other
discrimination. Now, sports participation can actually help
overcome some of this vulnerability.
Now, we have a wide range of views on this Committee, but I
want to make sure that people are aware there is some
bipartisan consensus. Here is a quote from one of my Republican
colleagues who is actually on this Committee today, which I
want to read. I find it encouraging. It says, ``I strongly
support LGBTQ rights and equality. No one should be
discriminated against. I have friends and family that identify
as LGBTQ. Understanding how they feel and how they have been
treated is important. Having been around gay, lesbian, and
transgender people has informed my opinion over my lifetime.''
Now, Ms. Goss Graves, do you know who said this by any
chance?
Ms. Goss Graves. I do not know.
Mr. Garcia. This was actually Congresswoman Nancy Mace, who
has, I know, waived on to our Committee today.
Now, Madam Chair, I would like to insert into the record
this article on CNN titled, ``Nancy Mace Now Targeting
Transgender Lawmaker Calls Herself Pro-Transgender Rights in
2023.'' Madam Chairwoman?
Ms. Greene. Without objection.
Mr. Garcia. Thank you. Now, Congresswoman Mace, of course,
is here today. Now, in November of just last year,
Congresswoman Mace posted 326 times on social media about trans
people and their access to bathrooms in just one 72-hour
period. That is a fact. So, I would like to introduce another
article from Newsweek, and this is the title, ``Nancy Mace has
posted 326 times in the last 72 hours about bathrooms.'' Madam
Chair, can I introduce this into the record?
Ms. Greene. Without objection.
Mr. Garcia. Thank you. I point this out because it is
actually important context. Republicans accuse Democrats of
focusing too much on LGBTQ+ issues or trans issues. But we want
to talk about protecting Social Security. We want to talk about
protecting the cost of living. We want to talk about lowering
prices. We want to make sure that all people have healthcare.
But Republicans are so obsessed with demonizing trans people
that we are wasting time in our Government Efficiency Committee
talking about trans people that like fencing.
Now, let us remember, according to congressional testimony
from the head of the NCAA, there are less than 10 trans college
athletes in 2024. That is less than 10 out of half a million
total NCAA athletes, less than 10 out of half a million.
Now, Congresswoman Mace has posted about this issue
hundreds and hundreds of times. That is equal to hundreds of
individual posts per athlete. All the while, we are ignoring
the real issues. I want to remind everyone that we have seen
935 confirmed cases of the measles as of May 1, according to
the CDC. Nearly 1,000 children are getting sick while our
country is hit by crisis after crisis. Let us focus on the 930
adults and kids with measles versus the 10 trans athletes that
are participating in college sports.
It is obvious to the American public that this issue is
being exploited by extremists to divide the American public. It
is shameful. It has been clear that DOGE is not about
government efficiency. It is an attack on vulnerable people.
And with that, I yield back.
Ms. Greene. The gentleman yields. I now recognize Mr.
Timmons from South Carolina.
Mr. Timmons. Thank you, Madam Chair.
We are here today to shine a light not only on the
integrity of women's sports but on how government-backed
institutions chartered by Congress may be misusing that
authority to push controversial policies that violate basic
human rights and disregard their congressionally authorized
mission. When an organization abuses authority delegated by the
government, it is within the purview of this Subcommittee,
plain and simple. I realize my colleagues across the aisle do
not understand that.
USA Fencing is a national governing body for the sport of
fencing in the United States, officially recognized under the
Ted Stevens Olympic and Amateur Sports Act. That designation is
not just ceremonial. It is a chartered monopoly backed by
Federal law and accompanied by special privileges and funding
access. That status comes with an expectation that NGBs serve
all athletes equitably, promote excellence, and adhere to
national interests, not ideological crusades.
Yet, recent events raise serious questions about whether
USA Fencing has abandoned its mandate, is wasting resources,
undermining athletes, and jeopardizing the integrity of women's
sports, all while flying under the flag of a Federal
endorsement.
We have heard USA Fencing speak about inclusion, but what
about transparency and fairness, especially toward female
athletes like Stephanie? We are having this hearing for women's
rights, and we know the difference between a man and a woman.
That is why we are here.
Stephanie Turner and Payton McNabb's rights have been
violated. What is worse is they have been violated by an entity
operating under the color of Federal law, an organization that
bears the name of our great country as bestowed by Congress in
1978. And I can assure you that in 1978, the Members that voted
for this law would be horrified. They would be horrified that
we have to have this hearing.
Mr. Lehfeldt, you said earlier that the Ted Stevens Act
prohibited you, prohibited you from discriminating against
biological men that identify as women. What are you
referencing?
Mr. Lehfeldt. Congressman, I may have misspoken. I do not
recall saying that. Could you remind me specifically what my
words were in that scenario?
Mr. Timmons. You specifically said that the statute--you
were statutorily prohibited from telling transgender men that
they are not allowed to participate in women's competitions.
Mr. Lehfeldt. Sir, I believe what I was referring to is a
statute within the Ted Stevens Amateur Sports Act, which
prevents any NGB from being more restrictive than their
international federation. We have consulted with very competent
legal counsel.
Mr. Timmons. Are you familiar with the executive order
signed by President Trump right here?
Mr. Lehfeldt. Yes, sir.
Mr. Timmons. OK. So, Madam Chair, I would like to submit
this for the record.
Ms. Greene. Without objection.
Mr. Timmons. So, a couple things. One, this executive order
prohibits all entities that receive Federal funds, which I know
you do not, of allowing transgender men to compete in women's
sports. So, that is basically your entire pipeline. Your main
purpose is to figure out who we are going to send to the
Olympics or one of your main purposes. Is that fair?
Mr. Lehfeldt. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Timmons. OK. So, you have women that are participating
in high school and in college, and they are never going to
compete against transgender men because that is federally
prohibited. And by the way, this executive order also says that
the Secretary of State shall use all appropriate and available
measures to see that the International Olympic Committee amends
the standard governing.
We are going to fix this, and you are lagging behind us
fixing it. And what is going to happen is we are going to amend
the Ted Stevens Act. You are going to lose your Federal
charter. And I appreciate that you did adopt a contingent
policy, but why do we have to do this? You are really creating
a problem where no problem should actually exist.
And if all this is not enough, I am going to just highlight
something you had on your website. I mean, this is just pretty
insane. What statutory or moral authority is granted to USA
Fencing in its charter to determine who in our society is
oppressed?
Mr. Lehfeldt. Congressman, forgive me, I cannot----
Mr. Timmons. This is on your website, and----
Mr. Lehfeldt. But if I could go back to something you were
saying before, sir, about changing the law, and what you were
talking about with the executive order.
Mr. Timmons. Sure.
Mr. Lehfeldt. All right. Thank you, sir. We will be
prepared to pivot as soon as the Ted Stevens Amateur Sports Act
changes----
Mr. Timmons. You might get penalized a little more though.
Mr. Lehfeldt [continuing]. The FIE, the IOC----
Mr. Timmons. I mean, I have a feeling that we are going to
write the statute in a way that if this is a problem when the
statute becomes law, we are probably going to have some
additional clauses in there that removes rights and abilities.
But look, you do you.
Mr. Lehfeldt. And we will follow the law, sir.
Mr. Timmons. The law is going to be punitive, I can assure
you of that. We are not going to let this stand, and it is
going to get fixed.
But anyway, I want to go back to this. So, you say on your
website, so Vietnam veterans are an oppressed group versus
veterans. Why does a veteran of a war in Afghanistan or Iraq--
how is a Vietnam veteran oppressed?
Mr. Lehfeldt. Sir, I have actually never seen this, but I
want to be clear----
Mr. Timmons. It is on your website.
Mr. Lehfeldt [continuing]. We have an appreciation for all
of our veterans. We have----
Mr. Timmons. Well----
Mr. Lehfeldt [continuing]. One individual who served our
country admirably was disabled by an IED in Iraq, and we very,
very much appreciate----
Mr. Timmons. You need to delete this off your website.
Ms. Greene. The gentleman's time----
Mr. Lehfeldt [continuing]. All of our veterans, sir.
Mr. Timmons. Yes, thank you.
Ms. Stansbury. Madam Chairwoman, I would like to ask for
unanimous consent to enter something into the record.
Ms. Greene. Without objection.
Ms. Stansbury. Madam Chairwoman, I would like to enter an
article from USA Today entitled ``Millions of People Would Lose
Their Coverage Under Trump-Backed GOP Plan to Cut Medicaid.''
This is the CBO score that came out today. We want to talk
about----
Ms. Greene. Without objection.
Ms. Stansbury [continuing]. Things that are horrifying?
Ms. Greene. Without objection, so ordered.
Ms. Stansbury. What about the millions of Americans that
will lose their healthcare?
Ms. Greene. We are not reading the article. Without
objection, so ordered, just the title.
I now recognize Mr. Casar from Texas.
Mr. Casar. Madam Chairwoman, I want to start off by
acknowledging that, this morning, the nonpartisan Congressional
Budget Office announced that more than 5 million Americans can
lose their healthcare because of the Medicaid cuts being pushed
by Republican Members of Congress. So, of course, Republicans
on the Government Efficiency Committee are holding an emergency
hearing on semi-pro fencing, not fences like the kind that goes
around a building, but like the sport with the swords.
And I have knocked on thousands of doors and talked to
thousands of Republican, Independent, and Democratic voters in
my career, and not a single time has someone flung open their
door and said, ``thank God you are here, Congressman. I want to
ask you about transgender people fencing.'' It has just never
happened. I have never even met a fencer before. I have just
seen it on the parent trap. I am sure it is a great sport, but
what the hell are we doing here, seriously?
We are here because Chairwoman Marjorie Taylor Greene
thinks that if she picks on vulnerable people like trans folks,
she can avoid having a discussion about the allegations of
insider trading against her. She thinks that she can distract
from the fact that Trump and MAGA Republicans are raising your
costs every single day, suppressing your wages every single
day, stealing your taxpayer dollars every single day, and
threatening your healthcare. That is the reason we are at this
crazy hearing today.
Here we are in a subcommittee supposedly about government
efficiency, spending hours upon hours trashing trans people and
talking about trans folks in sports. There are more Members on
this Committee than there are trans people in all of college
sports. Of the 500,000 student athletes in America, about 10 of
them are trans, not 10,000, 10. In Olympics, there are even
fewer. So, in my opinion, sports leagues will do a much better
job than politicians up here on this Committee coming up with
fair and thoughtful ways of handling who does and who does not
qualify for which sports.
But I think that instead of picking on LGBT people,
politicians in this country should be singularly focused on
improving the economy for every single working American. That
is my crazy idea.
Ms. Goss Graves, Republicans have called an emergency
hearing on trans athletes in the sport of fencing today. Can
you tell me, how many college fencers are there total in the
entire United States?
Ms. Goss Graves. I think about 1,000.
Mr. Casar. Compare that to, do you know how many people
rely on Medicaid in this country?
Ms. Goss Graves. That is more like 80 million.
Mr. Casar. And Social Security?
Ms. Goss Graves. That is more like 70 million.
Mr. Casar. So, 80 million people rely on Medicaid, 70
million people on Social Security. We are talking about 1,000
college fencers, period.
How many hearings do you think this Committee has held on
Elon Musk pushing Social Security to the brink of collapse?
Ms. Goss Graves. I do not think any.
Mr. Casar. Zero hearings. How about how many hearings have
we had about the millions of Americans who could lose Medicaid
because of the cuts Republicans are pushing today?
Ms. Goss Graves. Zero.
Mr. Casar. That is correct. Zero hearings on these issues
that impact us all.
Republicans have called hearing after hearing obsessed with
trans folks in sports, which of course only affects a tiny
sliver of Americans, but no hearings on Medicaid, no hearings
on Social Security, no hearings on raising wages and lowering
costs.
So, if you are sitting at home watching, you need to know
the goal of this hearing is for Republicans to distract you
from their own lies, their own corruption, and their own
failure. The goal of this hearing is to make sure that Fox News
has something to talk about other than Elon Musk getting
billions of dollars a year in government contracts while
cutting services for you. The goal of this hearing is to make
sure that Fox News has something else to talk about other than
Chairwoman Marjorie Taylor Greene's alleged insider trading.
It is a sick reality right now in American politics that
right-wing Republican officials think that picking on trans
people is how they will earn more votes and raise more money.
They pick on Americans that are already facing discrimination
and violence, and they are making those challenges worse. They
are trying to pull the oldest trick in the book. Next time you
go vote, ask yourself if these second-rate schoolyard bullies
are looking out for you or if they are scammers just like the
man that holds their leash.
Ms. Greene. The gentleman's time has expired. It is
important to point out that Democrat Members today are not
asking the two young ladies that are here representing their
sports, and this is what the hearing is about today.
I now recognize Chairman Comer from Kentucky.
Mr. Comer. Thank you, Madam Chair.
I want to start with a quick round of yes or no questions
for each of our four witnesses, so please keep your answers
from our first two questions to yes or no for time's sake.
First question, do you believe biological men should compete in
women's sports?
Ms. Turner?
Ms. Turner. No.
Mr. Comer. Ms. McNabb?
Ms. McNabb. No.
Mr. Comer. Mr. Lehfeldt?
Mr. Lehfeldt. If they comply with the requirements, sir.
Mr. Comer. So, is that a yes or no?
Mr. Lehfeldt. It is if they comply with the requirements
that have been set by our policy, they deserve to compete.
Mr. Comer. By the President's policy?
Mr. Lehfeldt. By the policy of USA Fencing.
Mr. Comer. I am going to take that as a yes.
Ms. Graves?
Ms. Goss Graves. I agree with Mr. Lehfeldt that trans women
should be able to compete in the sport in accordance with their
gender identity.
Mr. Comer. So, two noes and two yeses. Second and last
question for yes or no, should biological men be able to get
scholarships to college in women's sports? Ms. Turner?
Ms. Turner. No.
Mr. Comer. Ms. McNabb?
Ms. McNabb. No.
Mr. Comer. Mr. Lehfeldt?
Mr. Lehfeldt. They cannot get them anymore, sir.
Mr. Comer. They cannot get them anymore. So, do you
believe, yes or no, they should? Do you have a personal opinion
on that?
Mr. Lehfeldt. I do not really have an opinion on that, sir.
Mr. Comer. Ms. Graves?
Ms. Goss Graves. I am actually concerned about the tens of
thousands of women in this country who play college sports who
have fewer scholarship opportunities than men. This would
actually be a really important----
Mr. Comer. So, you are concerned that a man would get a
college scholarship----
Ms. Goss Graves. Well, I am less concerned about----
Mr. Comer [continuing]. That should go to a woman?
Ms. Goss Graves. It is my understanding that there is less
than 10 transgender----
Mr. Comer. OK.
Ms. Goss Graves. [continuing]. Women playing sports, but I
know that there are----
Mr. Comer. Mr. Lehfeldt?
Ms. Goss Graves. [continuing]. Tens of thousands of women
who----
Mr. Comer. Mr. Lehfeldt?
Ms. Goss Graves. [continuing]. Have fewer----
Mr. Lehfeldt. Sir?
Ms. Goss Graves. [continuing]. Scholarship opportunities.
Mr. Comer. On the website, and I know my colleague, Mr.
Timmons, talked about it, there are some troubling statements.
There is a page titled, and I think he referenced it, ``Power
and Privilege.'' This page promotes woke content, stating that
people who are white, Christian, middle-class, English-speaking
are all privileged, and we should be asking if they are, ``the
right person to take up space or speak on certain issues.''
Your blog and social media posts consistently express similar
views, so I assume you support the ideas on that webpage?
Mr. Lehfeldt. Sir, I am not sure about the specific area of
the webpage that you are referring to. As a board member, I
focus primarily on governance----
Mr. Comer. So----
Mr. Lehfeldt [continuing]. And, you know, if there is
something that is operational, I stay very far away from that.
Mr. Comer. So, you disavow your website?
Mr. Lehfeldt. I am just not sure of the specific area of
the website. Is it my website? Is it the USA Fencing website,
sir, that----
Mr. Comer. It is the USA Fencing website.
Mr. Lehfeldt. OK. I just am not familiar with the area that
you are referring to, sir.
Mr. Comer. OK. The reason that is odd is because your blog
that we looked at expresses similar views. So, you know, you
appear to be white, English-speaking male like me. You know, it
was just an odd opinion. You do not have any comment on that?
You do not know anything about it?
Mr. Lehfeldt. Sir, in all honesty, I am not following the
question.
Mr. Comer. You are not following the question about the USA
Fencing website that has just a lot of, you know, concerning
content on there that some would consider racist,
discriminatory. That is not a concern or anything?
Mr. Lehfeldt. If you link me to the specific part of the
website, I could get back to you with an opinion, but I am just
not----
Mr. Comer. OK.
Mr. Lehfeldt [continuing]. Following where that is.
Mr. Comer. We will get you a copy of your website that Mr.
Timmons just referenced.
So, Mr. Lehfeldt, let me ask a simple question. Do you
support transgender women, which are biological men, competing
in women's events?
Mr. Lehfeldt. If they comply with the policy, sir.
Mr. Comer. Which policy? Whose policy are you going by?
Should that be the policy? Should men be allowed? You are a
leader in this. Show some leadership. Should men be able to
compete in women's fencing?
Mr. Lehfeldt. Sir, our policy was passed in 2022 prior to
my joining the board, but right now, anybody who----
Mr. Comer. Well, are you just silent?----
Mr. Lehfeldt [continuing]. Goes through 1 year of----
Mr. Comer. So, you are OK with it? You are OK with it? You
do not have a problem in the world with it? You knew this
hearing was coming up. You knew this was the topic of the
conversation. You do not have an opinion on the policy? Are you
going to change the policy? Are you going to stick with the
policy?
Mr. Lehfeldt. Sir, we have passed a contingency policy at
this time. Due to the Ted Stephens Amateur Sports Act, our
counsel has advised us that we cannot have a policy that is
more restrictive than our international federation. I want to
be clear that if Congress or the IOC or the FIE, our
international federation, changes the policy to ban transgender
participation, we will, of course, follow suit.
Mr. Comer. Well, look, I think the majority of this
Congress is committed to protecting women and women's sports.
NBC News poll asked, when asked if they agree or disagree with
transgender women competing in women's sports, 75 percent
disagreed. This is one of those 80-20 issues that my colleagues
on the other side, the hill they want to die on. So, we are
going to try to protect women's sports.
Thank you for having this hearing, Madam Chair, and I yield
back.
Ms. Greene. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Ms. Stansbury. Madam Chair, I would like to ask for
unanimous consent.
Ms. Greene. Without objection.
Ms. Stansbury. I would like to enter into the record a New
York Times article entitled, ``The GOP Plans to Cut Medicaid
would Save Billions but Leave More Uninsured, Budget Office
says.'' That is what we are actually outraged about.
Ms. Greene. Without objection, so ordered.
I now recognize----
Ms. Stansbury. Also, I want to point out----
Ms. Greene [continuing]. Mr. Burchett----
Ms. Stansbury [continuing]. That the most powerful----
Ms. Greene [continuing]. From Tennessee.
Ms. Stansbury [continuing]. Oversight Republican in----
Ms. Greene. You are not recognized.
Ms. Stansbury [continuing]. Congress----
Ms. Greene. Ms. Stansbury, you are not recognized.
Ms. Stansbury [continuing]. Is talking about fencing----
Ms. Greene. Oh, I am sorry, we are going to Crockett.
Ms. Stansbury [continuing]. While they are trying to cut
Medicaid.
Ms. Greene. Actually, Ms. Stansbury, you are not
recognized.
I now recognize Ms. Crockett from Texas.
Ms. Crockett. Thank you so much.
It is so interesting that I just learned today, at 44 years
old, that the Republicans are going to be the ones to save
women, the same Republicans that have been saved for Women's
Reproductive Act, or the same Republicans that have stood for
the Equal Rights Act, which would hopefully get women to equal
pay, or the same Republicans that just this Congress voted for
the SAVE Act, which we know would disenfranchise women from
even being able to vote. But let me tell you, they are our
saviors, and so I am so happy to be here today because
otherwise, I would not have an idea that I had a savior in the
Republicans.
So, let us also talk about the fact that it is only been
100 days, 100 long, terrible days for anybody that absolutely
believes in reality because what we know is that they have
terminated staff responsible for enforcing Federal protections
against sex-based discrimination. Sounds like that is pro-
women. Or they have cut funding for domestic violence survivor
services. Sounds pro-women to me. Or they have prohibited
funding for research affecting women's health. That definitely
sounds pro-women to me. Essentially, they closed the Department
of Education's Office of Civil Rights. Again, sounds like they
are fighting for us. And instead of providing oversight over
these actions, congressional Republicans have been working to
execute one of the most aggressive anti-women legislative
agendas in history. And yet, they are here today trying to
convince the American people that discriminating against trans
people is somehow the only way to protect women.
This hearing has nothing to do with improving government
efficiency. It is another attempt by Republicans to distract
from their demonic and disastrous policies that are making it
more difficult for Americans to make ends meet.
So, Ms. Goss Graves, I want to play a game. It is called
Trump or trans. You ready?
Ms. Goss Graves. OK.
Ms. Crockett. So, I am going to ask you a question, and I
want you to tell me whether or not it is Trump or trans people
that are responsible. You understand?
Ms. Goss Graves. Got it.
Ms. Crockett. OK. Very good. The first one, gutted medical
research?
Ms. Goss Graves. Trump.
Ms. Crockett. Kidnapping Americans and sending them to
foreign countries, AKA deporting them?
Ms. Goss Graves. Trump.
Ms. Crockett. Driving us into a recession?
Ms. Goss Graves. Trump.
Ms. Crockett. Increasing the cost of everything?
Ms. Goss Graves. Trump.
Ms. Crockett. Waging an idiotic tariff war?
Ms. Goss Graves. Trump.
Ms. Crockett. Harming farmers?
Ms. Goss Graves. Trump.
Ms. Crockett. Ignoring the Constitution?
Ms. Goss Graves. Trump.
Ms. Crockett. Proposing to take away Social Security?
Ms. Goss Graves. Trump.
Ms. Crockett. Cutting healthcare?
Ms. Goss Graves. Trump.
Ms. Crockett. Firing government workers who keep our
country safe?
Ms. Goss Graves. Trump.
Ms. Crockett. Encouraging an environment of hate and
divisiveness?
Ms. Goss Graves. Trump.
Ms. Crockett. Thank you so much. This Committee could be
engaged in actual oversight of fraud, waste, abuse, and
mismanagement.
So, let us talk about waste, like Trump's plan to spend
almost $100 million for his little birthday parade, or how he
spent 25 percent of his first 100 days golfing, costing
taxpayers tens of millions of dollars. In fact, it is a little
bit over $30 million at our last estimation. In fact, President
Trump is on pace to spend more than $1 billion of taxpayer
dollars just on golfing. Yet, the Republicans have been silent.
So, they must think spending taxpayer dollars on the
President's golfing trips is more important than providing
healthcare to their constituents. And when I talk about
constituents, we are going to talk about the ones on this
Committee.
So, if we look at Texas 26, 39,000 children look to
potentially lose their Medicaid with the cuts that they are
about to vote on for reconciliation; 88,000 in Georgia 3;
68,000 in Missouri 7; 79,000 in Tennessee 2; 86,000 in South
Carolina 4; 50,000 in Texas 04; 85,000 in Texas 27; and in
Georgia 14, 111,000. And if you add that up just on this
Committee, we have 606,000 kids that are relying on us to do
right by them. And instead, we are playing these crazy games
because we are worried about 10 trans folk that are in sports
right now in college.
I was not elected to be engaged in these fights. I was
elected to make sure that those kids, the kids that they are
about to neglect with these terrible votes that they are about
to take, I was elected to protect them and to make sure that
they could grow up and have all the opportunities.
But let us keep on track. Now, when we look at how much
they are spending on, let us look at fraud. We could
investigate whether the White House and the Members of this
subcommittee engaged in insider trading and market
manipulation. Maybe it is a coincidence that the Chairwoman
brought hundreds of thousands of dollars' worth of stock the
day before Trump announced a 90-day pause on tariffs, but I
guess we will never know.
So, finally, let us talk about abuse, like how the
Republicans have let Elon steal data of Americans and his
competitors to make himself even richer. Look, do not let these
hearings distract you from their destruction. This is rage
baiting instead of conducting oversight over the issues that
Americans actually care about.
And with that, I will yield.
Ms. Greene. The gentlelady's time has expired.
Ms. Mace. Madam Chair?
Ms. Greene. I now recognize----
Ms. Mace. Madam Chair, I move down to take down her words
impugning you as saying you committed a crime.
Ms. Greene. Without objection, so ordered.
Mr. Garcia. Madam Chair?
Ms. Greene. The Committee will suspend.
Ms. Stansbury. Point of parliamentary----
Ms. Greene. The Committee will suspend.
Ms. Stansbury [continuing]. Inquiry.
Mr. Garcia. Madam Chair?
Ms. Stansbury. Point of parliamentary inquiry.
Ms. Greene. We are going to go with hers first, right?
Mr. Garcia. Madam Chair?
Ms. Greene. The Committee will suspend. The Member will
state the words she wishes taken down.
Mr. Garcia. Well, actually, Madam Chair, the words were
actually not made in a timely manner.
Ms. Greene. The Committee will suspend.
Ms. Mace. The words alleging a criminal act by the
Chairwoman.
Mr. Garcia. What words?
Ms. Greene. The Committee will suspend. The clerk will go
over the recording with the stenographer, and the Committee
will suspend.
[Recess.]
Ms. Greene. The hearing will come to order.
Ms. Mace, I would like to ask, we have looked at the words
that were said, and it is borderline whether it is
parliamentary and goes along with the Rules. Saying ``could,''
and accusing the White House and Members of this Committee of
crimes is borderline. So, in interest of the hearing and our
witnesses that are here today defending themselves against the
mentally ill biological males that have invaded their sports
and in the interest of making sure that we stay on track
instead of getting sidetracked into Democrats' nonstop fake
accusations. I just ask--thank you for bringing up the motion
and ask if you would like to----
Ms. Mace. Yes, Madam Chair.
Ms. Greene. OK. Thank you very much.
With that, I now recognize----
Ms. Stansbury. That is not really on the record. She has to
withdraw it on the record.
Ms. Greene. She already did, Ms. Stansbury.
I now recognize Mr. Burchett from Tennessee for 5 minutes.
Mr. Burchett. Thank you, Chairlady.
Ms. Stansbury. Madam Chairman, I am sorry, it has to be
withdrawn on the record.
Ms. Greene. You were not listening, Ms. Stansbury. We
handled that, and it has been removed for the record, the fake
accusations of criminal behavior.
Ms. Stansbury. Of your----
Ms. Greene. Oh, are you accusing also? And lying? And you
are continually disrupting this hearing and will not stay on
track about mentally ill men trying to beat down women and
women's sports.
We are going to stay on track now, Ms. Stansbury, so
hopefully, you can go along with this hearing and stay on
subject.
But I now recognize Mr. Burchett from Tennessee.
Mr. Burchett. Thank you, Chairlady. Thank you for allowing
me to be here.
You know, much has been said about the number of trans
athletes that are in sports today or the lack of numbers, I
guess, but I can tell you there is a couple of ladies sitting
right here who have been greatly affected by those very small
numbers. One is not being able to pursue her passion of
fencing, and the other lady has had a life-altering event occur
to her because of it. And I take a little bit of offense to
that, being the father of a very cool young lady. I just think
that this is something that needs to be noted.
And also, a lot of distractions have been made about
cutting SNAP and all these other things and Medicaid, Medicare,
what have you. All anybody on our side of the aisle is talking
about is cutting waste, abuse, and fraud. The only people that
are talking about making any cuts are my friends cackling to my
right and a few commentators on CNN. And all we are talking
about is waste, abuse, and fraud. And Americans are going to
have to ask themselves eventually, why in the world are the
folks on the left so afraid of waste, abuse, and fraud being
cut? I suspect because it is going to come back to somebody's
pockets.
So, with that, I appreciate the time you have allotted me.
Mr. Lehfeldt, did I say that name right, sir?
Mr. Lehfeldt. Close enough, sir, it is Lehfeldt.
Mr. Burchett. Lehfeldt? All right. I am Burchett.
Mr. Lehfeldt. Yes, sir.
Mr. Burchett. Nobody ever gets it right, so.
Mr. Lehfeldt. It is a German name, sir----
Mr. Burchett. All right.
Mr. Lehfeldt [continuing]. But a lot of people mess it up.
Mr. Burchett. I am not really sure what mine is, East
Tennessee.
Let me ask you, while serving as Chairman of the USA
Fencing, you posted a very long pro-transgender manifesto on
your blog. Let me ask you, why did you post this? And I would
like to, for the record, put that on the record, Madam
Chairman. Go ahead.
Ms. Greene. Without objection, so ordered.
Mr. Lehfeldt. Sir, I posted it in my personal capacity,
just over the years having observed a lot of transgender women
transition and the success that they had found in fencing and
the purpose that it gave them in life.
Mr. Burchett. OK. And in the post, you mentioned you had no
problem with your daughter facing a man in the sporting event.
Is that true?
Mr. Lehfeldt. Sir, at this time, she is 4 years old and
hits me with a foam saber but does not participate in fencing
yet.
Mr. Burchett. OK. But when she is at the age where she
would take this sport on, is that something you would think
would be fair, that she would compete with a man?
Mr. Lehfeldt. Sir, we are one of the safest sports in the
Olympic movement, and 34 percent of our events are mixed-
gendered. It is very----
Mr. Burchett. I am not talking about the safety issue. I am
just talking about the fairness issue, sir. I realize you cover
up, and I realize nobody gets poked in the face anymore. I get
that. But do you think that is fair? That is just a simple yes
or no.
Mr. Lehfeldt. So long as the competitor has met all of the
hormonal requirements and complies with the policy, I would be
OK with it, sir.
Mr. Burchett. OK. On Instagram, a commenter asked, ``Are
you OK with a cis female,''--and I do not like these terms, I
had to look it up--a cis female is someone who is born a
female, I believe is correct, meaning women. ``Are you OK with
them being at a disadvantage?'' To which you replied, ``Yes.''
And to be clear, let us be clear, you would be OK with a young
lady or young woman being at a disadvantage or at a higher risk
of being injured in any of these other sports?
Mr. Lehfeldt. Sir, thank you for giving me the opportunity
to address that question. That was a question that required a
far more nuanced answer than what I gave, and I appreciate
having the opportunity on the Committee to address that
question.
I want to be clear in saying that I expect anybody that is
competing as a woman, as a transgender woman, that they meet
the requirements as set forth in USA Fencing's policy.
Mr. Burchett. OK. Well, I hate to say I reclaim my time.
That sounds like being a jerk, but I am going to do that if
that is all right with you, brother. Is it true that USA
Fencing created an equality map? I know it was referred to
either of states not to have events in because of what the
democratically elected representative of those states voted
for.
Mr. Lehfeldt. Sir, there was a map policy that a few of
your colleagues have referenced that was passed before I joined
the board. It does exist, and it does not exclude any states
from selection. To be crystal clear, we have had tournaments in
numerous states that are listed in there, including Texas,
Ohio, Florida, Missouri, et cetera. It does not exclude any
states from selection, and we proudly host tournaments in those
states.
Mr. Burchett. OK. Well, I am out of time. I apologize.
Thank you, Chairlady.
Mr. Lehfeldt. Thank you, sir.
Ms. Greene. The gentleman's time has expired. I now
recognize Ms. Simon from California.
Ms. Simon. Thank you, Madam Chair. And thank you, all of
you all, for coming today.
There is so much to say, but I have such a limited time,
and I actually have a question, but I also want to refer back
historically. We have been having these conversations for quite
some time. Ms. Goss, do you recall in, I believe it was 2009,
the Castor Semenya case?
Ms. Goss Graves. Correct, yes.
Ms. Simon. Can you tell folks a little bit about this case?
I have some document on it, too, but can you give me a----
Ms. Goss Graves. Yes, this----
Ms. Simon [continuing]. Little background?
Ms. Goss Graves. You know, this was an Olympic sprinter,
and there were all sorts of assumptions that she was not a
woman, and she was subject to all sorts of invasive tests, but
also bullying and harassment because she was assumed to be not
feminine enough for the sport, basically.
Ms. Simon. Yes, so, you know, this case, she was a Black
woman, and she was assumed----
Ms. Goss Graves. South African, I think, yes.
Ms. Simon. South African Black, and she was assumed to be
too fast, too big, and of course, she was asked to undergo
testosterone testing and medical treatment to reverse her
natural testosterone that was in her body, but she was born
female.
Ms. Goss Graves. That is correct.
Ms. Simon. So, I just want to make it clear where we are.
On March 25 in this very room, my colleague, Ms. Pressley, she
introduced an amendment to this body, and the amendment was
pretty clear. It requested that this body vote down anything,
any mention of any policy that would ban racism, that would
push forth any clarity around us insinuating, as a full body,
that the Trump Administration, when he moved executive orders,
that they would not mention or allude to any kind of
segregation. My colleagues on the right voted that amendment
down, every single one of them.
So, even if you are not transgender, folks who are
watching, I want you to understand why this moment is so
important. We have a party who has been very clear about what
their intentions are for this country, very clear about what
their intentions are for this country. I think it is bringing
us back to a 1950s America where segregation was legal.
Who is to say that your African-American daughter, because
of her BMI, will be subject to the same kind of conversation?
Who is to say if we move forth in this conversation, that your
daughter, who was born a female, would be subjugated and
subject, I should say, to inspection of her genitals when she
went up to the mound to play T-ball because she looked a little
bit different from other folk? There is a slippery slope here.
I definitely want to talk about race, fraud, and abuse in
the 119th Congress. It is important. And it is also important
for us to realize that the cruelty of not centering all
Americans, how difficult that is, but it is ingrained in who we
are to figure out how we love and support and not pathologize
anyone. Let us be careful. Let us be careful.
Ms. Goss, I wanted to give you an opportunity, while my
time is limited, to share anything else about really what we
are seeing here and how the slippery slope can maybe go a
little bit farther and more horrific than it already is.
Ms. Goss Graves. Well, I would say it is already happening.
We are already seeing girls being challenged for not being
feminine enough, for being too tall, too fast, too good at what
they do by other parents, by school officials. Discrimination
never begins and ends with a small group of people who are
initially targeted. It will extend and harm all girls.
Ms. Simon. Thank you. Thank you so much. And I yield my
time, Madam Chair.
Ms. Greene. The gentlelady's time has expired. I now
recognize Mr. Burlison from Missouri.
Mr. Burlison. Thank you, Madam Chair. And thank you to our
two witnesses for confronting the assault on women's sports.
Men in women's sports is absolutely nonsense, no matter how
you spin it. It is shameful to look at the women that have been
hurt from these men and tell them that they need to be silent
in the name of inclusion. This whole hearing, we have had
motions to try to stop this hearing, to stop these young women
from expressing their views. It is almost as if we have nothing
to see here. We do not want to hear what you have to say. That
is the message that is coming from this side. But I am here
because I want to hear what you have to say.
And, you know, look, whether it is fencing tournaments,
track and field, my daughters are in soccer, or volleyball
games, you are endangering our daughters and belittling their
narrative. The men like Mr. Lehfeldt who are wrecking women's
sports with woke poison and a twisted, twisted mental view of
things are destroying the opportunities for these young women.
Meanwhile, Americans, they all get this. They look at this,
and they think that this is absolutely crazy that we are even
here. And so, we are here to obliterate this insanity and fight
for our girls and their safety and their fairness in their
athletic endeavors.
And I have got to tell you, Ms. Graves, I was shocked to
read your testimony where you belittled the experience of Ms.
Turner. In your testimony, you said that her experience is part
of a larger scheme to attack young trans people. You said it
was deliberate spectacle that was carried out. Do you really
believe she contrived this situation that she put----
Ms. Goss Graves. She testified that she planned the night
before to protest----
Mr. Burlison. She cried the night before.
Ms. Goss Graves. Listen, I believe----
Mr. Burlison. Do you have any sympathy----
Ms. Goss Graves. I believe in protests----
Mr. Burlison [continuing]. For a young woman who realizes
she is going to have to swordfight----
Ms. Goss Graves. She planned to protest----
Mr. Burlison [continuing]. A man the next day?
Ms. Goss Graves. That is the point. Protest is important.
It is to make a point. There is mixed gender competition all
the time in fencing. You heard that it was a plurality.
Mr. Burlison. No, Ms. Graves, I am taking my time. This
young woman did not register for a mixed sport, for a mixed
event. She registered to compete with other women, and that
right was taken from her. And she, you know, bravely stood her
ground, and I think the world applauded you for that.
Ms. McNabb, the lifechanging, altering, can you explain--
and this is where I want to kind of give some time. This event
has had a dramatic impact on your life physically, the mental
anguish that you have gone through. Unlike some, I want to hear
your story. I want to hear what you have to say.
Ms. McNabb. Thank you, Congressman. Yes, what happened to
me was 100 percent avoidable, and it completely changed my
life. I never played volleyball again that day. That was the
last day. And it is so sad because I had the hopes of playing
collegiate sports in softball, and that day never came because
I was just never the same. I have had to navigate my new
normal, which is incredibly sad, especially for my friends and
family to see. And although I may look like I am doing better
on the outside, there are things that are not, and I do not
know if they will ever be the same.
Mr. Burlison. I am sorry for the experience that you went
through. And, you know, I am really sorry that we have
individuals in positions of power, like Mr. Lehfeldt, who have
a twisted view on reality. And they are imposing that twisted
view on you and your lives. It is really tragic and it is sad.
And what is even worse is that now you are the one to blame
because you two contrived these situations, according to Ms.
Graves, that you created this.
Ms. Goss Graves. Sorry, Congressman?
Mr. Burlison. You wanted this to happen, Ms. Turner.
Ms. Goss Graves. I did not say that.
Mr. Burlison. That is what Ms.----
Ms. Goss Graves. I never said that.
Mr. Burlison. It is in your testimony.
Ms. Goss Graves. I did not say that Ms. McNabb contrived
the situation. I actually think the lesson from her situation
is around concussion protocol and what those should look like.
Mr. Burlison. Let me ask, do you really believe the
experiences they have experienced? Ms. McNabb? Do you really
believe that she wanted to face all these medical issues?
Ms. Goss Graves. I think what happened to her is tragic.
There are hundreds of thousands of injuries that are
preventable.
Mr. Burlison. So, why aren't you standing up for her?
Ms. Goss Graves. I actually have. I said that this was
terrible. And I have solutions that do not involve bullying----
Mr. Burlison. Thank you, Ms. Graves.
Ms. Goss Graves. [continuing]. Transgender people.
Mr. Burlison. Look, I think that it is sick and twisted
that individuals want to make women have to swordfight men. And
it is sick and twisted that individuals have to take a spiked
ball to the forehead if that is what it takes for a trans
person to play. I yield back.
Ms. Greene. The gentleman's time has expired. I now
recognize Ms. Randall from Washington.
Ms. Randall. Thank you. You know, this hearing, much like
the long suspension that we had a few speakers ago, is a waste
of taxpayer time, yet another showing of the 24/7 circus that
this Majority has been conducting as puppets of this
President's agenda.
We have people at risk of losing healthcare coverage for
concussions, for preventable diseases, for brain injuries, for
cancer, people at risk of losing healthcare coverage, Federal
workers and veterans fired without reason.
FAA, woefully understaffed, and Presidential appointees
taking advantage of their position for personal gain. And yet,
the first subpoena that this Majority feels compelled to
execute, not any that we tried to offer for Elon Musk, but it
is to bring the Chairman of the Board of USA Fencing in. No
offense, Mr. Lehfeldt, but this is part of a crusade against
trans people. There is nothing else to call it. No one can
explain away how questioning the Chairman of USA Fencing on
trans people in sports brings down costs for American people,
much like no one can explain how banning trans people from our
military ranks makes us more safe.
In fact, Representative McGuire, who is not on this
Subcommittee but is on the full oversight panel, said this
morning something that we could all do well to remember. If
somebody saved your life on the battlefield, you would not care
if they were pink or blue or male or female, if they called
themselves a Democrat, Republican, or an Independent. We are
all Americans. But my Republican colleagues care more about
policing the way that people live their lives instead of
ensuring that they can.
Last week, this Committee advanced a bill gutting Federal
employee pay and benefits. This week, the Energy and Commerce
Committee was supposed to mark up their piece of their
reconciliation package that would cut $880 billion from
Medicaid, healthcare for people. This is so unpopular that they
had to push back their meeting a week in order to find the
votes.
But here is the thing. Despite their attempts to distract
and deflect by focusing on trans people who are just trying to
play sports and live their lives, the American people are
paying attention. They feel the cost of goods going up. Does
this hearing address that? No. American people feel the fear of
wondering if they will have health insurance tomorrow. Does
this hearing address that? No.
I do not know if any of my colleagues are even talking to
their constituents because I have received over 60,000 messages
and phone calls, held eight townhalls since being sworn in, and
not one person asked me to use my time here to attack trans
people. I cannot make it make sense.
In fact, Madam Chair, as I think we heard earlier, 155,000
people in your district are at risk of losing their healthcare
under the Republican Party's budget plan, including 111,143
children and 20,000 seniors. Do you want to tell those folks
that you care less about them or should I?
Ms. Greene. Ms. Randall, in my district, no one is going to
lose any of their benefits. It was a promise by President
Trump----
Ms. Randall. I am reclaiming my time, Madam Chair----
Ms. Greene [continuing]. And myself, but they are concerned
about men----
Ms. Randall. Reclaiming my time----
Ms. Greene [continuing]. Defeating women in sports.
Ms. Randall. Madam Chair?
Ms. Greene. By the way, your patriarchy earrings are
screaming of the hypocrisy.
Ms. Randall. I am glad you like my earrings, but I would
like to reclaim my time.
I am here today on behalf of my sister, Olivia, who would
have been unable to live with her complex disabilities for 19
years without Medicaid, and I am here on behalf of the 72
million families and seniors who rely on Medicaid. I am here to
tell the American people that while this might be a scary time,
a time where we are feeling attacks on our most vulnerable
communities every day, where the instances of suicidal ideation
amongst LGBTQ folks is rising, and this Administration is
cutting the very lifeline of the LGBTQ suicide hotline, there
are people who see you and celebrate your humanity and who care
about you.
Ms. Graves, I have wasted all my time, but I am grateful
that you are here and were able to share about the real ways
that we could support women across the country.
Ms. Greene. The gentlelady's time has expired. I now
recognize Mr. Jack from Georgia.
Mr. Jack. Well, thank you, Madam Chairwoman, and thank you
for convening this hearing. Under your leadership, the DOGE
Subcommittee has been one of the most active subcommittees
across Congress, and my constituents are proud of our work to
eliminate waste, fraud, and abuse of taxpayer dollars across
the Federal Government.
And today, it is no surprise that our colleagues on the
other side of the aisle have spent a majority of their time
desperately avoiding the issue before us because 80 percent of
Americans, Republicans and Democrats alike, believe biological
men should never compete in women's sports.
Mr. Lehfeldt, as Mr. Fallon noted, you are testifying today
under subpoena because you refused to appear before us
voluntarily. Why did you refuse our initial invitation to
testify?
Mr. Lehfeldt. Congressman, thank you for giving me the
opportunity to address that. Our CEO of the organization, Phil
Andrews, was offered as a witness, and we felt, given his full-
time capacity that he operates in this role, that he would be
able to answer the questions more thoroughly than I can.
However, since I am here, I am happy to be here and answer your
questions.
Mr. Jack. Thank you. And as Chairman of USA Fencing, how
many members of USA Fencing are biological men who have
participated in women's competitions, rough estimate?
Mr. Lehfeldt. Rough estimate, sir? I believe that it is
roughly 200 total with I think 39 that are transgender women.
Mr. Jack. And of that group of biological men, how many
have won championships in women's competitions, rough estimate?
Mr. Lehfeldt. I could not tell you the specific number,
sir.
Mr. Jack. More than five, more than 10?
Mr. Lehfeldt. I am honestly not sure, sir. I mean, I have
the data on how often cisgender women prevail against
transgender women, but specifically the number of medals, et
cetera, I am not sure off the top of my head, sir.
Mr. Jack. Then conversely, how many biological women are
participating in men's competitions within USA Fencing?
Mr. Lehfeldt. Thirty-four percent of our events are mixed,
sir, and so it is fairly regular for that kind of event to
happen. They are a plurality of our events.
Mr. Jack. And again, I am just referring to specifically
non-mixed competitions, specifically male competitions. How
many biological women are participating in those to the best of
your knowledge?
Mr. Lehfeldt. So, just so I understand your question, sir,
biological women competing in the men's division, sir?
Mr. Jack. Yes.
Mr. Lehfeldt. Oh, I am not sure, sir.
Mr. Jack. OK. Well, I think the disparity alone, as we have
seen, confirms that this approach is inequitable. The data
across other sports affirms it. In recent years, over 600
female athletes have lost more than 900 medals to biological
men and women's sports. And again, over 80 percent of
Americans, Republicans and Democrats alike, agree that
biological men should never compete in women's sports.
Mr. Lehfeldt, and I mean this with respect, in your
capacity as a representative of USA Fencing, have you ever
impersonated a woman?
Mr. Lehfeldt. No, I have not, sir, not to my knowledge.
Mr. Jack. I ask because I understand you have a history of
creating fictitious female personas. In one instance, you
impersonated a woman named Dorothy and wrote an email to
yourself, which you then published on social media for all your
followers to see, along with your response. Do you want to
comment on that?
Mr. Lehfeldt. Yes, I do, sir. Thank you for giving me the
opportunity to address that. It was a poor attempt at humor. It
was unbecoming of me as a leader of this organization to post
that as I did. And quite frankly, moving forward, that is not
something that is going to happen again. It is unacceptable,
and it is not something that should happen with any human-to-
human interaction, period.
Mr. Jack. Thank you. Ms. Turner and Ms. McNabb, I want to
commend both of you. You are both very brave women. And Ms.
Turner, your courage that you displayed on March 30 galvanized
millions of Americans in support of the simple truth that
biological men should never compete in women's sports.
And with my remaining time, Madam Chairwoman, I would like
to learn a little bit more about the culture within USA
Fencing. Specifically, Ms. Turner, reporting suggests that you
previously raised your concerns of the policies, with which you
have to face, to USA Fencing officials. What was the response
when you did so?
Ms. Turner. I had done so privately, and the answer is that
they did not respond. But I have known of other members of USA
Fencing, a mother and a daughter, who did come to USA Fencing
saying that they did not approve of the transgender policy, and
they were told that they would be sanctioned.
Mr. Jack. And did you or have you feared retribution from
USA Fencing with respect to your brave stance and likewise your
concerns you have raised before you took that stand?
Ms. Turner. Yes, and I still do. I do not think I will ever
get a fair bout again from a referee or that I would be
welcomed without harassment.
Mr. Jack. And why do you think that culture exists? Just,
you know, you have experienced it. I am curious, your own
perspective as it relates to the culture that tolerates this
type of behavior.
Ms. Turner. I do not think they communicate well with
people who oppose this policy. No one ever asked me what I
thought. And I think maybe if they had, they would know what my
stance was, you know? So.
Mr. Jack. Well, your bravery led us to ask you your
thoughts today in front of the American public, so grateful for
both you, Ms. McNabb, and all of our witnesses for testifying.
Madam Chairwoman, I yield the remaining 4 seconds to you. Thank
you very much.
Ms. Greene. The gentleman yields.
I now recognize Ms. Jacobs from California.
Ms. Jacobs. Thank you. I am not normally a member of this
Committee, but I could not sit idly by while Republicans attack
the transgender community for the millionth time. And look,
there are real well-intentioned questions and policy decisions
that need to be made around trans issues. I understand that.
For a lot of people, these issues are new. It can feel
intimidating to talk about them, scary to ask questions. We
need to be having dialog.
But that is not what we are doing today in this hearing.
This hearing is a waste of time and neglects to provide actual
oversight of the ways the Trump Administration is dismantling
our government and hurting women and girls.
Madam Chairwoman, would it be accurate to say that you
believe no one should receive gender-affirming care?
Ms. Greene. I believe that no minors should receive gender-
affirming care, sex changes, mutilating their body.
Ms. Jacobs. OK. Do you think----
Ms. Greene. They cannot vote, they cannot----
Ms. Jacobs. Do you think adults should receive gender-
affirming care?
Ms. Greene [continuing]. Get a tattoo, they cannot drive a
car----
Ms. Jacobs. OK. Thank you.
Ms. Greene [continuing]. They cannot join the military.
Ms. Jacobs. Thank you. I ask this because many people
believe that Botox, filler, boob jobs are all gender-affirming
care. And I know many of my colleagues, probably on both sides
of the aisle, have partaken in this gender-affirming care. But
OK, let us take this Committee at its word that this hearing is
about protecting women and girls.
Ms. Goss Graves, the Department of Education's Office of
Civil Rights is the primary entity that investigates
discrimination against women and girls in sports, in school. Is
that correct?
Ms. Goss Graves. That is correct.
Ms. Jacobs. That protects women and girls against sexual
assault, whether in sports or elsewhere. Is that correct?
Ms. Goss Graves. That is correct.
Ms. Jacobs. All right. Well, then would you say that
getting rid of the Department of Education's Office of Civil
Rights would hurt women and girls?
Ms. Goss Graves. For sure, as did the cuts to the Office
for Civil Rights, the group that actually responds to Title IX.
Ms. Jacobs. That is exactly right, which is why I find it
so interesting that the Trump Administration has already closed
more than half of the offices of the Office of Civil Rights in
the Department of Education, including an office in California
that is in the middle of an active discrimination
investigation. You would think if we were concerned about
protecting women playing sports and protecting their Title IX
rights, that we would want to be actually looking into why we
are closing these offices, not what we are doing right now.
For the record, for, you know, folks watching, this is also
the office that investigates antisemitism, incidents of
antisemitism on college campuses, so remember that when my
colleagues try and tell you that they are standing up for
Jewish students.
But I have a theory. I think we are probably talking about
this issue instead of what the Trump Administration is actually
doing because my colleagues do not want to talk about, for
instance, the 99,301 people who are at risk of losing their
Medicaid in Nancy Mace's district, or the 54,466 people who are
at risk of losing their Medicaid in Brandon Gill's district, or
the 69,698 people who are at risk of losing their Medicaid in
Pat Fallon's district, or the 263,276 people at risk of losing
their Medicaid in Eli Crane's district, or the 235,530 people
at risk of losing their Medicaid in Chairman Comer's office, or
the 155,530 people at risk of losing their Medicaid in
Chairwoman Marjorie Taylor Greene's office, or the 1.7 million
people statewide in Georgia who are at risk of losing their
Medicaid, or the 320,818 students who rely on school lunch in
Georgia in order to get their food who are at risk of losing
that. Maybe it is because the Atlanta Journal-Constitution has
already ranked the Chairwoman as last in a poll of potential
candidates for the U.S. Senate in the Georgia seat, and she
thinks that attacking trans kids will help her poll numbers.
But I am here to tell you that attacking trans kids is not
going to launch a Senate campaign. Attacking trans kids is not
good politics, not for the right, not for the left. The
American people did not say that they hate trans kids and they
hate trans people in this last election. What they said is that
they want us to take care of them. They are mad that someone
else is getting a surgery paid for when they are drowning in
medical debt. They are mad that someone else is getting housing
paid for when they can barely afford rent.
So, let us be clear that on both sides of the aisle, it is
bad politics to attack trans kids, and it is a shame on this
body that we work in that we all even have to be having this
conversation today.
Thank you so much, Madam Chairwoman. I yield back.
Ms. Greene. The gentlelady yields.
I now recognize Mr. Gill from Texas.
Mr. Gill. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman.
This is an excellent hearing and we really, really
appreciate your leadership, incredible leadership on this topic
and on this issue.
And I would also like to thank our witnesses, Ms. Turner
and Ms. McNabb, for particularly moving testimoneys. And thank
you for your bravery for coming here. I know it takes a lot of
guts to testify before a congressional committee.
Mr. Lehfeldt, I would like to ask you a few questions. Do
you think that men should be allowed in women's locker rooms?
Mr. Lehfeldt. Sir, those regulations are set by the
tournament organizers.
Mr. Gill. I am just asking you yes or no. Do you think men
should be allowed in women's locker rooms?
Mr. Lehfeldt. I do not have a personal opinion on this,
sir.
Mr. Gill. You have a personal opinion on a lot of things,
but not on that?
Mr. Lehfeldt. Sure, I mean, a locker room is not really an
area where people interact.
Mr. Gill. So, the answer is yes.
Mr. Lehfeldt. I do not really have a----
Mr. Gill. Do you think that men should be allowed to share
showers with women in athletic facilities?
Mr. Lehfeldt. I think that showering is a private activity,
and it should be private.
Mr. Gill. And it should be private. There is oftentimes
communal showers. Are you OK with men showering with women?
Mr. Lehfeldt. I do not have an opinion on that in the
context of USA Fencing so----
Mr. Gill. You do not, interesting. That is an astounding
thing to not have an opinion on. I think most normal people
have an opinion on that.
Are you OK with women being at a disadvantage when
competing against men in sports?
Mr. Lehfeldt. Sir, mixed events happen all the time, and
women are often----
Mr. Gill. No, that is not my question. Let me ask it this
way--are you OK with cis females being at a disadvantage?
Mr. Lehfeldt. If their competitor, assuming that you are
talking about----
Mr. Gill. It is a yes or no question.
Mr. Lehfeldt [continuing]. A transgender female, that they
have met the requirements set forth in the policy----
Mr. Gill. Why did you post on social media for the world to
see?
Mr. Lehfeldt [continuing]. That is intended to be an equal
playing field.
Mr. Gill. You were asked in an anonymous question, which
you posted online, ``Are you OK with cis females being at a
disadvantage?'' You said, ``Yes.''
Mr. Lehfeldt. Yes, I believe it was Congressman Cloud that
had asked me about that, sir, and I am happy to address it
again. That was a one-word answer to a more nuanced topic, and
I feel, like, if I could take it back and expound a little bit
more----
Mr. Gill. OK.
Mr. Lehfeldt [continuing]. Than what I had there.
Mr. Gill. Reclaiming my time. Do you think that women----
Mr. Lehfeldt. Sure.
Mr. Gill. Excuse me. Do you think that parents who do not
want their daughters competing against men in women's sports
are whiny?
Mr. Lehfeldt. No, sir.
Mr. Gill. You do not? Why did you write that on social
media? I have got a picture here where you posted that. You
were allegedly responding to a parent who did not want their
daughter being beaten up by men in sports competitions. You
said, ``I am not going to pull her from the sport and write a
whiny email announcing my departure.''
Mr. Lehfeldt. Sir, Congressman Jack had asked me about
that, and I want to be crystal clear, that was an inappropriate
message. It was made in the personal capacity----
Mr. Gill. Do you think that they are cowardly?
Mr. Lehfeldt. Sir, no, I do not. I do not at all, and, in
fact----
Mr. Gill. Why did you write that on social media?
Mr. Lehfeldt. I regret it, sir. I deleted it shortly after
posting, and I certainly do not feel that way anymore. And
given a lot of the messages that we receive and even
conversations that I have had with----
Mr. Gill. Do you think that parents who do not want their
daughters competing against men in sports should be compared to
the Ku Klux Klan?
Mr. Lehfeldt. No, absolutely not. And I acknowledge----
Mr. Gill. And why did you do that?
Mr. Lehfeldt [continuing]. That I said that in the message,
sir----
Mr. Gill. Why did you do that?
Mr. Lehfeldt [continuing]. And that was inappropriate.
Mr. Gill. That was inappropriate?
Mr. Lehfeldt. Yes, sir.
Mr. Gill. Yes, you are right. That is inappropriate. I
would like to read what you wrote and what you posted on social
media.
Mr. Lehfeldt. Sure.
Mr. Gill. Responding allegedly to a lady who had these
concerns. ``The only wizard that is going to dig you out of the
myopic hole you put yourself and your family in is one of the
`grand wizard' variety.''
Mr. Lehfeldt. Inappropriate, sir. And I acknowledge that I
said it, and I will commit to never making a message like that
again.
Mr. Gill. That was in response to a parent, according to
you on social media, who had a problem with this. Was this a
real email that you were responding to?
Mr. Lehfeldt. It was a real email, sir. I did not respond
to it and hit send, though.
Mr. Gill. This was a real email. Did an actual parent write
this, or did you write this email?
Mr. Lehfeldt. It was written by an actual person claiming
to be a parent. They were not a member of our organization.
Mr. Gill. Were you that actual person?
Mr. Lehfeldt. No, sir.
Mr. Gill. You were not----
Mr. Lehfeldt. No, I was not.
Mr. Gill [continuing]. That actual person, but you staged
this whole interaction?
Mr. Lehfeldt. The response, sir, was not real, and I regret
that.
Mr. Gill. OK. You think inclusivity, presumably, is a big
part of the fencing community. Is that right?
Mr. Lehfeldt. I would say so, sir. We are a very welcoming
community, and I am proud of that.
Mr. Gill. Are you welcoming to Trump supporters?
Mr. Lehfeldt. Absolutely.
Mr. Gill. Then why did you, on your Facebook page, from The
Fencing Coach, write, ``Imagine being one of 71 million people
dumb enough to vote re-election for a treasonous clown who is
permanently banned from Twitter for inciting an insurrection,
you mad MAGA bros.''
Mr. Lehfeldt. I acknowledge that I stated that in my
personal capacity, sir. However, as Chair, I have to
acknowledge that, sir.
Mr. Gill. That was from the fencing coach.
Mr. Lehfeldt. I have to acknowledge that 77 million people
voted for him in re-election. I----
Mr. Gill. That was not your personal capacity. That was
from your capacity as ``the fencing coach online.'' So, I can
ask you----
Mr. Lehfeldt. Yes, that is my blog, sir. That is my
publication, and I acknowledge writing that.
Mr. Gill. All right. My time is up. Thank you. I yield
back.
Ms. Greene. Wow. OK. Thank you for that, Mr. Gill. I now
recognize Mr. Crane from Arizona.
Mr. Crane. Thank you, Ms. Chairwoman. Thank you to the
guests for showing up today.
Many Americans ask me all the time, what is wrong with this
country? Why does it appear that we have gone mad? And I think
this Subcommittee hearing is a testimony to what has actually
happened.
And I know I hold some beliefs that, you know, they are my
own beliefs, they are not everybody's beliefs, but I tell them
all the time, this is exactly what happens when you allow God
to be pushed out of everything. This is what we are seeing
because God has clearly spoken about this. In Genesis 5:2 He
says, ``I created them male and female.'' And what is really
going on up here in D.C. is just a microcosm of culture. We
have lost our minds. We have pushed God out of everything.
And that is one of the reasons why it appears that we have
gone mad and one of the reasons we have two beautiful young
women here who are here to testify about how they have been
abused in sports by biological men. And none of my colleagues
on the other side of the aisle have asked you guys a single
question. Have you noticed that? They do not care. They do not
hear you. They claim to be the party of women. We got two women
sitting right here, and they could not care less that you are
here. All they want to do is sit here and try and deflect and
talk about how we are trying to bully transgender kids, and
none of us are trying to do that. As a matter of fact, I feel
sorry for a lot of kids that grow up with gender dysphoria. It
is hard enough to grow up as it is, let alone taking that on
and having to deal with that.
But that is not why we are here. They do not want to
acknowledge why we are here. We are here to protect young women
in women's sports from biological men. You know, most of the
men, real men that I know, who came from good families, they
were raised to protect women. It is something that we are all
taught to do. We have clearly failed to do that as a culture
and a society, and this hearing is a testimony to that.
I want to ask you, Mr. Lehfeldt, did you grow up in a
family where your parents taught you to protect women?
Mr. Lehfeldt. Absolutely, sir. My parents are here with me
today, and I am proud of the lessons that they taught me. They
absolutely taught me----
Mr. Crane. Great.
Mr. Lehfeldt [continuing]. To protect women.
Mr. Crane. Great, thank you. Then why aren't you doing
that, Mr. Lehfeldt? Why aren't you protecting women? Because we
got two sitting right next to you who will tell you that not
only are you not protecting them, but you are depriving them
from participating in sports and everything that goes along
with that. Why aren't you protecting women?
Mr. Lehfeldt. Sir, from a fencing standpoint, it is one of
the safest sports in the Olympic movement. I know that, you
know, you think swords present some kind of danger but----
Mr. Crane. No, we are not talking about swords. We are
talking about biological men, and you know it. Do not try those
games with me. We are not talking about swords. We are talking
about the fact that you and other men and officials in
authority have failed to protect young girls, and it is
pathetic. It is pathetic.
I am not going to sit here and try and convince my
colleagues on the other side with biology or anything like that
because they are long gone. There is no study that I could show
them that would convince them that what they are doing is
wrong. I am asking you, why have you not protected young girls
like these two sitting right next to you?
Mr. Lehfeldt. Sir, I believe we have protected young women
in fencing. It is one of the safest sports in----
Mr. Crane. OK. Really? Hold on a second. Let us ask the
expert witnesses. Ms. Turner, have men like Mr. Lehfeldt
protected you?
Ms. Turner. No.
Mr. Crane. Are they protecting other young girls from
biological men participating in sports?
Ms. Turner. No, he glorifies it.
Mr. Crane. Ms. McNabb, are men like Mr. Lehfeldt protecting
you and other young women participating in women's sports?
Ms. McNabb. Absolutely not.
Mr. Crane. Do you feel safe?
Ms. McNabb. No.
Mr. Crane. You should not because, guess what? God created
men and women differently. And I know that this town and many
in this culture have a real problem with that, but it is a
fact, OK? It is just a fact, and you guys know it. You have
permanent injuries for the rest of your life. Is that correct,
Ms. McNabb?
Ms. McNabb. That is correct, Congressman.
Mr. Crane. Evil triumphs when good men and women do
nothing. Not only have you done nothing to protect these young
women, but you have actually sided with policies that are
destructive to young women's sports. You said you have a
daughter, Mr. Lehfeldt?
Mr. Lehfeldt. I do, sir.
Mr. Crane. That is sad, man. That is sad that you would not
protect young girls from what is going on in this culture. And
it is disgusting to listen to these posts that you, yourself,
posted. I cannot believe that you are still the chairman of
this organization. I really cannot. After hearing some of those
posts, calling parents, who are concerned about this type of
leadership, KKK members, are you serious? Shame on you, bro.
I yield back.
Ms. Greene. The gentleman yields.
I now recognize Ms. Mace from South Carolina.
Ms. Mace. Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you for the
invitation to participate in today's hearing. Ms. Goss Graves,
so-called, ``expert in women's rights''----
Ms. Goss Graves. I am.
Ms. Mace [continuing]. Do you know how many years it took
South Carolina to elect its first Republican woman to Congress?
Ms. Goss Graves. Well, what year did South Carolina
become----
Ms. Mace. One hundred years since women got the right to
vote. Do you know how many years it took the Citadel, the
military college of South Carolina, to graduate its first
woman?
Ms. Goss Graves. Well, I mean----
Ms. Mace. One hundred and fifty-seven years.
So, I have a series of yes or no questions I would like to
ask you based on some of your previous statements. In your
opening statement today, you said trans women are women. Ms.
Goss Graves?
Ms. Goss Graves. Yes?
Ms. Mace. What is a woman?
Ms. Goss Graves. So, a woman is an adult female. A woman
identifies as a woman. And I actually think it is best that not
be reduced to----
Ms. Mace. What do you consider a female? What is a female?
Ms. Goss Graves. So, there are some women who were assigned
a female sex at birth.
Ms. Mace. You say you are here to defend women.
Ms. Goss Graves. There are some women----
Ms. Mace. You say you are here to defend women----
Ms. Goss Graves. [continuing]. Who are assigned----
Ms. Mace [continuing]. But shouldn't you be able to define
one?
Ms. Goss Graves. [continuing]. Male at birth.
Ms. Mace. Shouldn't you be able to define one if you are--
--
Ms. Goss Graves. That is what I am----
Ms. Mace [continuing]. For women's rights?
Ms. Goss Graves. That is literally what I am----
Ms. Mace. Ms. Goss Graves?
Ms. Goss Graves. [continuing]. Doing right now.
Ms. Mace. Do women have penises?
Ms. Goss Graves. So, again, I believe that women should not
be----
Ms. Mace. Democrats have gone so crazy.
Ms. Goss Graves. I believe that women should not be----
Ms. Mace. Women can have penises. That is not a thing, that
is not biology.
Ms. Goss Graves. [continuing]. Reduced to their anatomy.
Ms. Mace. It is not science, and you sound like a lunatic.
Ms. Goss Graves. And the women that I----
Ms. Mace. Should young girls just get used to penises in
their----
Ms. Goss Graves. The National Women's Law Center----
Ms. Mace [continuing]. Locker rooms and showers? My next
question.
Ms. Goss Graves. [continuing]. Are not----
Ms. Mace. Yes or no, should little girls get used to
penises in their locker rooms and showers? Yes or no?
Ms. Goss Graves. I do not even know what you are talking
about, but what I will say is that----
Ms. Mace. Oh, I absolutely do.
Ms. Goss Graves. [continuing]. Privacy in locker rooms----
Ms. Mace. We have heard testimony today about trans women.
Ms. Goss Graves. [continuing]. Is extremely important.
Ms. Mace. Those are women with penises. Those aren't real
women.
Ms. Goss Graves. Privacy in locker rooms----
Ms. Mace. I am going to reclaim my time.
Ms. Goss Graves. [continuing]. Is extremely important.
Ms. Mace. When President Trump issued an executive order to
keep men out of women's sports. Thank God he did. You said it
was sexist.
Ms. Goss Graves. Yes.
Ms. Mace. Bullying that harms all students.
Ms. Goss Graves. Correct.
Ms. Mace. Is it sexist, yes or no, to protect women from
men in sports? Yes or no?
Ms. Goss Graves. If you want to----
Ms. Mace. You cannot answer the question. Is it sexist----
Ms. Goss Graves. [continuing]. Protect women.
Ms. Mace [continuing]. To acknowledge basic science? Men
and women----
Ms. Goss Graves. Of course.
Ms. Mace [continuing]. Are built differently. Is it sexist
to acknowledge science? Cannot answer the question. Does
forcing little girls to----
Ms. Goss Graves. No, I would like to answer questions.
Ms. Mace. Does forcing little girls to strip down----
Ms. Goss Graves. But you are not allowing me to answer
questions.
Ms. Mace [continuing]. In front of men in locker rooms harm
girls?
Ms. Goss Graves. I do not even understand the----
Ms. Mace. Does forcing little girls----
Ms. Goss Graves. I would like to answer.
Ms. Mace [continuing]. To strip down in front of men in the
locker room----
Ms. Goss Graves. But for some reason you are----
Ms. Mace [continuing]. Harm little girls?
Ms. Goss Graves. You are not allowing me----
Ms. Mace. Yes or no?
Ms. Goss Graves. [continuing]. To answer your questions.
Ms. Mace. Cannot answer the question.
Ms. Goss Graves. I have.
Ms. Mace. Does forcing little girls to shower--I am going
to reclaim my time. You can quit talking. These are yes or no
questions. You can answer them or not.
Ms. Goss Graves. You have asked five questions.
Ms. Mace. And you have chosen not to answer the questions.
Ms. Goss Graves. But you have not had----
Ms. Mace. Because you do not know how. And it is----
Ms. Goss Graves. No, I actually do----
Ms. Mace [continuing]. Shameful.
Ms. Goss Graves. [continuing]. Know how to answer
questions.
Ms. Mace. Do you support drugging and chopping off kids'
genitals----
Ms. Goss Graves. It requires some amount of time----
Ms. Mace [continuing]. In the name of inclusion? Is that--
--
Ms. Goss Graves. I----
Ms. Mace [continuing]. A thing for you?
Ms. Goss Graves. I have to say----
Ms. Mace. Do you get off on that?
Ms. Goss Graves. [continuing]. I am so stunned----
Ms. Mace. All right. When a biological man----
Ms. Goss Graves. [continuing]. By how----
Ms. Mace [continuing]. Crushes a girl in a----
Ms. Goss Graves. [continuing]. You are being toward----
Ms. Mace [continuing]. Contact sport----
Ms. Goss Graves. [continuing]. An invited witness----
Ms. Mace [continuing]. and sends her to the ER----
Ms. Goss Graves. [continuing]. For testimony.
Ms. Mace [continuing]. Is that your idea of empowerment? Is
that empowering women when a young man beats a girl and sends
her to the ER in a contact sport? Is that empowerment,
empowering women? Is that what that is?
Ms. Goss Graves. Are you talking about Ms. McNabb?
Ms. Mace. I am talking about----
Ms. Goss Graves. Because I thought that was----
Ms. Mace [continuing]. Any woman who gets----
Ms. Goss Graves. [continuing]. Horrific.
Ms. Mace [continuing]. Crushed in a sport by a man
physically and has----
Ms. Goss Graves. And I actually would love to work----
Ms. Mace [continuing]. To go to the ER.
Ms. Goss Graves. [continuing]. With Ms. McNabb and others--
--
Ms. Mace. I am going to reclaim my time.
Ms. Goss Graves. [continuing]. About things like concussion
protocols----
Ms. Mace. So, Madam Chair?
Ms. Goss Graves. [continuing]. And ensuring that volleyball
is safe.
Ms. Mace. We will show that the witness--I am going to
reclaim----
Ms. Goss Graves. I am a former volleyball player----
Ms. Mace [continuing]. My time. You can stop talking now.
Ms. Goss Graves. [continuing]. Myself.
Ms. Mace. I am reclaiming my time.
Ms. Greene. This is Ms. Mace's time, Ms. Goss Graves.
Ms. Mace. I would like some of that time back, Madam Chair.
If a man can be a woman, just identify as a woman, as you
say, just by saying so, what is the point of having women's
sports? What is the point of women's spaces? What is the point
of women's scholarships? If you are just going to allow men to
take them away, why even bother? Why bother? The loudest
voices----
Ms. Goss Graves. The way----
Ms. Mace. I am not asking you a question. I am speaking.
Ms. Goss Graves. Oh, I thought you were.
Ms. Mace. The loudest voices on the left claiming to fight
for women's rights are the very first people to take them away,
steal them, and tear these women down.
You are the first to erase them. Mr. Lehfeldt, Ms. Goss
Graves, you all are shameful.
Ms. Goss Graves. I do not believe----
Ms. Mace. I did not come here to play with an ideology
hellbent on erasing women----
Ms. Goss Graves. I do not believe----
Ms. Mace [continuing]. And grooming children. That is what
you all are. You are groomers. And we are not going to----
Ms. Goss Graves. That is shocking.
Ms. Mace. [continuing]. The Chairwoman and I----
Ms. Goss Graves. And terrible.
Ms. Mace. Madam Chair, I am going to----
Ms. Goss Graves. And I cannot believe----
Ms. Greene. But this is Ms. Mace's time, Ms. Goss Graves.
Ms. Goss Graves. This is----
Ms. Greene. Ms. Goss Graves.
Ms. Goss Graves. This is a shocking thing to say about
anyone.
Ms. Greene. Ms. Goss Graves, you are not recognized.
Ms. Goss Graves. OK. But I just want to say that that is a
shocking thing to say about anyone.
Ms. Greene. You are not recognized, Ms. Goss Graves.
Ms. Goss Graves. That is fine.
Ms. Greene. The time belongs to Ms. Mace.
Ms. Goss Graves. OK, fine.
Ms. Mace. Like Chairwoman Greene, I have been holding the
line for women, standing between perverts and the rights of
women and girls. And we are not going to let anyone in this
country forget what a woman is.
Mr. Lehfeldt, will you face Ms. Stephanie Turner today?
Will you look her in the eyes? Will you apologize to her for
the way that she was treated by USA Fencing, standing up for
women and girls, women's rights, standing her ground as a woman
who only wanted to fence with other women. Will you apologize
to her today?
Mr. Lehfeldt. Congresswoman Mace, Ms. Turner was given a
black card under our rules, which align with those of the----
Ms. Mace. Will you apologize for the way----
Mr. Lehfeldt [continuing]. International Federation.
Ms. Mace [continuing]. She was treated? So, that is a no.
Mr. Lehfeldt. So.
Ms. Mace. You will not do it.
Mr. Lehfeldt. Congresswoman, if I could respond to one
thing.
Ms. Mace. You know what is----
Mr. Lehfeldt. In Ms. Turner's----
Ms. Mace [continuing]. Unbecoming of a leader? You said
this just in your testimony just like 5 minutes ago.
Mr. Lehfeldt. Yes, ma'am.
Ms. Mace. That you have said several things that are just
disgusting and unbecoming of a leader, to use your words. It is
unbecoming of a leader today to acknowledge what has happened
to this young woman. You just look at her face and look what
she has been through and the courage it took her to stand up
for her rights as a woman and other women in other sports all
across the country, and you cannot even, as a man, look her in
the eye and apologize for what happened to her. And as my
colleague, Congressman Crane, said, real men protect women. You
are not one.
And I yield back.
Ms. Greene. The gentlelady yields.
In closing, I want to thank our witnesses once again for
their testimony today. I now yield to the Ranking Member
Stansbury for closing remarks for 3 minutes.
Ms. Stansbury. All right. Well, it has been an interesting
journey today, as it often is in this Committee. You know, I
want to start out by saying yes, thank you to our witnesses for
sitting here in this toxic soup for the last 3 hours. It is
ironic because the jurisdiction of this Committee is government
efficiency, and we just spent 3 hours talking about fencing,
USA Fencing, trans athletes, girls. We had my friends across
the aisle mansplaining to us about how they are protecting
women. I mean, yes, this was a really good use of government
time and money. Meanwhile, behind closed doors, as we have
pointed out many times during this hearing, my Republican
colleagues across the aisle are trying to cut a deal to cut
Medicaid.
Now, I do not want to diminish anybody's life-altering
experiences, and I am genuinely sorry to hear that both of our
young lady witnesses who are here today had horrible
experiences. It is bad. I am sorry to hear that you had a bad
experience. And I want to acknowledge that, and I appreciate
you coming and appearing before the Committee today.
But I do not need a bunch of GOP Republican colleagues
mansplaining at me for 3 hours to tell me that they are trying
to take away my rights, they are trying to take away your
medical care, they are trying to take away environmental
protections, they are trying to take away food assistance for
the seniors and children of this country. Like, this hearing
has nothing to do with substance for the United States. It has
nothing to do with defending women's rights, has nothing to do
with defending the rights of girls. It is all about using the
issue of transgender lives to distract from the nefarious plots
that are actually happening in this building while we are
sitting here to actually take away your civil rights, your
human rights, and your access to vital lifesaving care and
programs that are vital to millions of Americans. That is
actually what is going on here.
But it is actually dangerous to the lives of trans
individuals because trans individuals are being targeted, they
are facing violence, and the only thing that is waste, fraud,
and abuse in the DOGE Subcommittee today is the waste of the
last 3 hours of our lives that we will never reclaim, the fraud
that is this Committee, and the abuse of Americans that has
spewed out of the mouths on the other side of the aisle for the
last 3 hours.
And so, I want to say to everyone out there who is
listening, whether you are a transgender American, an LGBTQ+
individual, or any American out there, we are fighting for you,
we love you, we support you, and we will stand against hate.
And with that, I yield back.
Ms. Greene. I hope the Democrats keep fighting for the
mentally ill biological men who keep trying to beat down women
in sports because it is a losing position, it is a losing
battle, and that was proven in the last election.
Today, we conducted oversight of our Nation's national
governing body for the sport of fencing, and with so many of
our Nation's institutions, USA Fencing has been captured by the
left. They banned the national anthem before competitions,
selected tournament competition locations based on state
abortion and DEI laws, and punished female athletes for
refusing to compete against men.
Earlier today, the Ranking Member called us weird for
standing up for girls and women when she is the one who
supports sex change surgeries for little kids and forcing women
to undress in front of creepy, perverted men. I will let the
American people decide who the weirdos are because I think we
know.
The American people are tired of cultural Marxism and
perverted sexual ideas being shoved down their throats,
especially when it is being done with our own tax dollars. The
issue of men competing in women's sports should not even have
to be a discussion. It is unfair, unsafe, and straight-up
abusive.
As Board Chair of USA Fencing, Mr. Lehfeldt has used his
position to push his own personal trans agenda on the sport. As
a matter of fact, Liz Kocab is the most decorated American
veteran fencer in history, and that is a man, a biological man
who is a ninth career gold medalist.
Let us be real. Mr. Lehfeldt is not pretending anymore. He
is defending the trans. And here is the issue. When you are
sending emails to yourself calling yourself Dorothy, and you
get caught and have to apologize for lying like that, here,
right here in the Oversight Committee, that is pathetic. When
you are calling parents whiny for defending their own little
girls from the biological males that you are allowing to
compete against them, that is pathetic.
Mr. Lehfeldt, you should resign from the Chair of USA
Fencing. You do not deserve the position that you have, and
that is the recommendation I have as the Chair of the DOGE
Subcommittee on Oversight.
And furthermore, it is pathetic that you are a father of a
little girl that you would be perfectly fine to teach and
encourage to lose because there is no female athlete that ever
wants to lose or come in second place. You are sitting next to
two champions next to you today that never wanted to lose, that
never wanted to suffer a brain injury, that never wanted to
have to face a male athlete in their sport, and you failed
them, and you are failing women. You need to resign.
With that, and without objection, all Members have 5
legislative days within which to submit materials and
additional written questions for the witnesses, which will be
forwarded to the witnesses.
If there is no further business, without objection, the
Committee stands adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 5:12 p.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.]
[all]