[House Hearing, 119 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]



                    AMERICA BUILDS: CLEAN WATER ACT
                    PERMITTING AND PROJECT DELIVERY

=======================================================================



                                (119-6)


                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

                            SUBCOMMITTEE ON
                    WATER RESOURCES AND ENVIRONMENT

                                 OF THE

                              COMMITTEE ON
                           TRANSPORTATION AND
                             INFRASTRUCTURE
                        HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS

                             FIRST SESSION
                               __________

                           FEBRUARY 11, 2025
                               __________

                       Printed for the use of the
             Committee on Transportation and Infrastructure
             
             
             
             
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                   U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE

59-960 PDF                 WASHINGTON : 2025

























                             
                            
             COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION AND INFRASTRUCTURE

                     Sam Graves, Missouri, Chairman
                 Rick Larsen, Washington, Ranking Member
Eric A. ``Rick'' Crawford,           Eleanor Holmes Norton,                
  Arkansas, Vice Chairman              District of Columbia               
Daniel Webster, Florida              Jerrold Nadler, New York               
Thomas Massie, Kentucky              Steve Cohen, Tennessee               
Scott Perry, Pennsylvania            John Garamendi, California           
Brian Babin, Texas                   Henry C. ``Hank'' Johnson, Jr., Georgia    
David Rouzer, North Carolina         Andre Carson, Indiana                
Mike Bost, Illinois                  Dina Titus, Nevada                   
Doug LaMalfa, California             Jared Huffman, California            
Bruce Westerman, Arkansas            Julia Brownley, California           
Brian J. Mast, Florida               Frederica S. Wilson, Florida         
Pete Stauber, Minnesota              Mark DeSaulnier, California          
Tim Burchett, Tennessee              Salud O. Carbajal, California        
Dusty Johnson, South Dakota          Greg Stanton, Arizona                
Jefferson Van Drew, New Jersey       Sharice Davids, Kansas               
Troy E. Nehls, Texas                 Jesus G. ``Chuy'' Garcia, Illinois   
Tracey Mann, Kansas                  Chris Pappas, New Hampshire          
Burgess Owens, Utah                  Seth Moulton, Massachusetts          
Eric Burlison, Missouri              Marilyn Strickland, Washington       
Mike Collins, Georgia                Patrick Ryan, New York               
Mike Ezell, Mississippi              Val T. Hoyle, Oregon                 
Kevin Kiley, California              Emilia Strong Sykes, Ohio,           
Vince Fong, California                 Vice Ranking Member                
Tony Wied, Wisconsin                 Hillary J. Scholten, Michigan        
Tom Barrett, Michigan                Valerie P. Foushee, North Carolina   
Nicholas J. Begich III, Alaska       Christopher R. Deluzio, Pennsylvania 
Robert P. Bresnahan, Jr.,            Robert Garcia, California            
  Pennsylvania                       Nellie Pou, New Jersey                
Jeff Hurd, Colorado                  Kristen McDonald Rivet, Michigan     
Jefferson Shreve, Indiana            Laura Friedman, California           
Addison P. McDowell, North           Laura Gillen, New York               
  Carolina                           Shomari Figures, Alabama              
David J. Taylor, Ohio                                     
Brad Knott, North Carolina                                     
Kimberlyn King-Hinds,                                     
  Northern Mariana Islands                                     
Mike Kennedy, Utah                                     
Robert F. Onder, Jr., Missouri                                     
Vacancy                                     
                                       
                                    
                                     
                                    























            Subcommittee on Water Resources and Environment

                   Mike Collins, Georgia, Chairman
             Frederica S. Wilson, Florida, Ranking Member
Eric A. ``Rick'' Crawford,           John Garamendi, California   
  Arkansas                           Jared Huffman, California 
Thomas Massie, Kentucky              Patrick Ryan, New York
Brian Babin, Texas                   Val T. Hoyle, Oregon
Mike Bost, Illinois                  Emilia Strong Sykes, Ohio 
Doug LaMalfa, California             Laura Friedman, California
Bruce Westerman, Arkansas            Shomari Figures, Alabama             
Brian J. Mast, Florida               Julia Brownley, California           
Tracey Mann, Kansas                  Mark DeSaulnier, California          
Eric Burlison, Missouri              Chris Pappas, New Hampshire          
Kevin Kiley, California              Hillary J. Scholten, Michigan,       
Vince Fong, California                 Vice Ranking Member                
Tony Wied, Wisconsin                 Nellie Pou, New Jersey               
Jeff Hurd, Colorado                  Laura Gillen, New York               
David J. Taylor, Ohio                Eleanor Holmes Norton,               
Brad Knott, North Carolina             District of Columbia               
Robert F. Onder, Jr., Missouri       Rick Larsen, Washington (Ex Officio) 
Vacancy
Sam Graves, Missouri (Ex Officio)
                                     
                                     
                                     
                                     
                                     
                                     
                                     
                                     
                                     
                                     
                                     
                                     
                                     
                                     
                                     
                                     
                                     
                                     
                                     
                                     
                                     
                                     
                                     
                                     
                                     
                                     

                                     
                                     
                                     
                                CONTENTS

                                                                   Page

Summary of Subject Matter........................................   vii

                 STATEMENTS OF MEMBERS OF THE COMMITTEE

Hon. Mike Collins, a Representative in Congress from the State of 
  Georgia, and Chairman, Subcommittee on Water Resources and 
  Environment, opening statement.................................     1
    Prepared statement...........................................     2
Hon. Hillary J. Scholten, a Representative in Congress from the 
  State of Michigan, and Vice Ranking Member, Subcommittee on 
  Water Resources and Environment, opening statement.............     3
    Prepared statement...........................................     4
Hon. Rick Larsen, a Representative in Congress from the State of 
  Washington, and Ranking Member, Committee on Transportation and 
  Infrastructure, opening statement..............................     5
    Prepared statement...........................................     7

                               WITNESSES

Robert D. Singletary, Executive Director, Oklahoma Department of 
  Environmental Quality, oral statement..........................     9
    Prepared statement...........................................    10
Hon. Shawn M. LaTourette, Commissioner, New Jersey Department of 
  Environmental Protection, oral statement.......................    12
    Prepared statement...........................................    14
Noah Hanners, Executive Vice President, Nucor Corporation, on 
  behalf of the National Association of Manufacturers, oral 
  statement......................................................    16
    Prepared statement...........................................    18
Buddy Hasten, President and Chief Executive Officer, Electric 
  Cooperatives of Arkansas, on behalf of the National Rural 
  Electric Cooperative Association, oral statement...............    21
    Prepared statement...........................................    22

                       SUBMISSIONS FOR THE RECORD

Submissions for the Record by Hon. Vince Fong:
    Statement of Modesto Irrigation District and Turlock 
      Irrigation District........................................    30
    Statement of John Sweigard, General Manager, Merced 
      Irrigation District........................................    31
Submissions for the Record by Hon. Brad Knott:
    Letter of February 10, 2025, from Paul N. Cicio, President 
      and Chief Executive Officer, Industrial Energy Consumers of 
      America, to Hon. Mike Collins, Chairman, and Hon. Frederica 
      S. Wilson, Ranking Member, Subcommittee on Water Resources 
      and Environment............................................    65
    Letter of February 10, 2025, from Amy Andryszak, President 
      and Chief Executive Officer, Interstate Natural Gas 
      Association of America, to Hon. Mike Collins, Chairman, and 
      Hon. Frederica S. Wilson, Ranking Member, Subcommittee on 
      Water Resources and Environment............................    67
    Statement of the American Society of Civil Engineers.........    70
    Statement of the Western States Water Council................    71
    Letter of February 11, 2025, from the Waters Advocacy 
      Coalition, to Hon. Mike Collins, Chairman, and Hon. 
      Frederica S. Wilson, Ranking Member, Subcommittee on Water 
      Resources and Environment..................................    76
    Letter of February 11, 2025, from Aurelia S. Giacometto, 
      Secretary, State of Louisiana, Department of Environmental 
      Quality, to Committee on Transportation and Infrastructure, 
      Subcommittee on Water Resources and Environment............    77
    Letter of February 11, 2025, from Kristen Swearingen, Vice 
      President, Legislative and Political Affairs, Associated 
      Builders and Contractors, to Hon. Mike Collins, Chairman, 
      and Hon. Frederica S. Wilson, Ranking Member, Subcommittee 
      on Water Resources and Environment.........................    79
Submissions for the Record by Hon. Mike Collins:
    Letter of February 11, 2025, from Amanda E. Eversole, 
      Executive Vice President and Chief Advocacy Officer, 
      American Petroleum Institute, to Hon. Mike Collins, 
      Chairman, and Hon. Frederica S. Wilson, Ranking Member, 
      Subcommittee on Water Resources and Environment............    80
    Letter of February 11, 2025, from Rich Nolan, President and 
      Chief Executive Officer, National Mining Association, to 
      Hon. Mike Collins, Chairman, and Hon. Frederica S. Wilson, 
      Ranking Member, Subcommittee on Water Resources and 
      Environment................................................    82
    Letter of February 20, 2025, from T. Lane Wilson, Sr. Vice 
      President and General Counsel, The Williams Companies, 
      Inc., to Hon. Mike Collins, Chairman, and Hon. Frederica S. 
      Wilson, Ranking Member, Subcommittee on Water Resources and 
      Environment................................................    83

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                            February 7, 2025

    SUMMARY OF SUBJECT MATTER

    TO:      LMembers, Subcommittee on Water Resources and 
Environment
    FROM:  LStaff, Subcommittee on Water Resources and 
Environment
    RE:      LSubcommittee Hearing on ``America Builds: Clean 
Water Act Permitting and Project Delivery''
_______________________________________________________________________


                               I. PURPOSE

    The Subcommittee on Water Resources and Environment of the 
Committee on Transportation and Infrastructure will meet on 
Tuesday, February 11, 2025, at 10:00 a.m. ET in 2167 Rayburn 
House Office Building to receive testimony at a hearing 
entitled, ``America Builds: Clean Water Act Permitting and 
Project Delivery.'' The hearing will examine how Congress can 
ensure that the Clean Water Act (CWA) balances the goals of 
protecting water quality and ensuring project completion, 
reducing supply chain challenges, and promoting commerce. At 
the hearing, Members will receive testimony from witnesses 
representing the State of Oklahoma Department of Environmental 
Quality, the New Jersey Department of Environmental Protection, 
National Association of Manufacturers, and National Rural 
Electric Cooperative Association.

            II. BACKGROUND: OVERVIEW OF THE CLEAN WATER ACT

    Congress enacted the 1972 amendments to the Federal Water 
Pollution Control Act, commonly referred to as the Clean Water 
Act (CWA), with the goal to ``restore and maintain the 
chemical, physical, and biological integrity of the Nation's 
waters.'' \1\ The CWA provides a major Federal-state program as 
the principal law governing the quality of the Nation's surface 
waters, including certain wetlands.\2\ The Environmental 
Protection Agency (EPA) is the primary Federal agency tasked 
with carrying out the CWA, while the United States Army Corps 
of Engineers (Corps) is also tasked with certain 
responsibilities. To achieve the objectives of the law, the CWA 
established two goals: (1) eliminate pollutant discharge into 
navigable waters by 1985, and (2) where possible, ensure water 
quality that is ``fishable'' and ``swimmable'' by 1983.\3\
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    \1\ CWA, Pub. L. No. 92-500, 86 Stat. 816.
    \2\ H. Comm. on Transp. and Infrastructure, Jurisdiction and 
Activities of the Subcomm. on Water Resources and Environment, 119th 
Cong., (2023) (on file with Comm.).
    \3\ Laura Gatz, Cong. Rsch. Serv. (RL30030), Clean Water Act: A 
Summary of the Law, (Updated Oct. 18, 2016), available at https://
www.crs.gov/Reports/RL30030 [hereinafter CRS Report RL30030].
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The CWA consists of two major parts: (1) the authorization 
of financial assistance for construction of municipal 
wastewater treatment plants, and (2) the regulatory 
requirements that apply to those who discharge into navigable 
waters, including industrial and municipal actors.\4\ Planning, 
financial, and technical assistance for various regions and 
issues, tribal and state water quality programs, and oil spill 
prevention and planning programs are also addressed.\5\
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    \4\ Id.
    \5\ Id.
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    The regulatory requirements in the CWA are found primarily 
in Titles III and IV of the law. Title III establishes the 
authority for EPA to develop the technological and water 
quality-based effluent limitation guidelines (ELGs) and 
requirements for points source dischargers to adhere to.\6\ 
Whereas Title III focuses largely on the creation of water 
quality guidelines and limitations, Title IV primarily deals 
with application of the regulatory program, informed by the 
guidelines created pursuant to Title III, through which 
dischargers must receive permits or certifications.\7\
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    \6\ CRS Report RL30030, supra note 3; see also CWA, supra note 1 at 
Sec. Sec.  301-320.
    \7\ CRS Report RL30030, supra note 3; see also CWA, supra note 1 at 
Sec. Sec.  401, 402, 404.
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                  III. ``WATERS OF THE UNITED STATES''

    The CWA applies to ``navigable waters,'' which is defined 
in the CWA as the ``waters of the United States, including the 
territorial seas.'' \8\ However, the statute does not further 
define the term ``waters of the United States'' (WOTUS). As 
such, the EPA and the Corps, which both play roles in clean 
water permitting, have attempted to define which waters are 
subject to Federal regulation under the CWA, through several 
sets of rules interpreting the Agencies' jurisdiction over 
WOTUS.\9\ For example, the prior three Administrations each 
published regulatory changes to the definition of WOTUS in the 
Federal Register.\10\
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    \8\ CWA, supra note 1 at Sec.  502(7).
    \9\ See e.g. Clean Water Rule: Definition of ``Waters of the United 
States,'' Final Rule, 80 Fed. Reg. 37,054 (June 29, 2015); The 
Navigable Waters Protection Rule: Definition of ``Waters of the United 
States,'' 85 Fed. Reg. 22,250 (Apr. 21, 2020); Revised definition of 
``Waters of the United States'' Final Rule, 88 Fed Reg. 3004 (Jan. 18, 
2023).
    \10\ Id.
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    Additionally, since passage of the CWA, there has been a 
substantial amount of litigation in the Federal courts on 
issues relating to the scope of CWA jurisdiction, including 
Supreme Court cases.\11\ In May 2023, the Supreme Court ruled 
generally on the scope of WOTUS under the CWA in Sackett v. EPA 
(Sackett).\12\
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    \11\ See e.g. United States v. Riverside Bayview Homes, 474 U.S. 
121 (1985); Solid Waste Agency of Northern Cook County (SWANCC) v. U.S. 
Army Corps of Engineers, 531 U.S. 159 (2001); Rapanos v. United States, 
547 U.S. 715 (2006).
    \12\ Sackett v. EPA, 598 U.S. 651 (2023) [hereinafter Sackett].
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    The Court's ruling in Sackett narrows the scope of 
jurisdiction under the CWA as compared to both its longstanding 
regulatory implementation and the interpretation adopted by 
lower courts after the 2006 case of Rapanos v. United 
States.\13\ While the extent of the change will depend on how 
the Corps and EPA implement various aspects of the decision, 
the Sackett majority's exclusion of wetlands that are separated 
from covered waters by natural or artificial barriers means 
that fewer wetlands will be covered than under any regulatory 
framework developed by the Corps or EPA since the 1970s.\14\ 
The Court's ruling could also affect regulation of waters at 
the state level.\15\
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    \13\ Kate R. Bowers, Cong. Rsch. Serv. Legal Sidebar (LSB10981), 
Supreme Court Narrows Federal Jurisdiction Under Clean Water Act, at 1 
(June 21, 2023), available at https://www.crs.gov/Reports/LSB10981 
[hereinafter LSB10981].
    \14\ Id.
    \15\ Id.
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    During the period from 2001 up to the Sackett decision, all 
four Presidential Administrations adopted different approaches 
to implementation of CWA jurisdiction, in part, reflecting 
competing legal interpretations of prior decisions. The most 
recent of these efforts, undertaken by the Biden Administration 
and finalized in December of 2022, authorized CWA jurisdiction 
under either test established by the Rapanos decision--the 
``relatively permanent'' or the ``significant nexus'' 
tests.\16\ However, the Sackett decision specifically rejected 
the significant nexus test as a basis of asserting CWA 
jurisdiction, prompting EPA and the Corps to issue a conforming 
rule, on August 29, 2023, titled ``Revised Definition of 
`Waters of the United States'; Conforming,'' amending the 
December 2022 rule post-Sackett.\17\
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    \16\ Press Release, EPA, EPA and Army Finalize Rule Establishing 
Definition of WOTUS and Restoring Fundamental Water Protections, (Dec. 
30, 2022), available at https://www.epa.gov/newsreleases/epa-and-army-
finalize-rule-establishing-definition-wotus-and-restoring-fundamental.
    \17\ LSB10981, supra note 13; see also, Revised Definition of 
``Waters of the United States''; Conforming, 88 Fed. Reg. 61,964 (Sept. 
8, 2023).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Although the Biden Administration's original (2022) and 
conforming (2023) rules, as well as other prior regulations 
were not litigated in Federal courts, the majority opinion in 
Sackett has changed key jurisdictional interpretations 
reflected in the Biden Administration's original rule.\18\ 
Currently, the conforming rule is in effect in 23 states, the 
District of Columbia, and United States territories.\19\ In the 
other 27 states, EPA and the Corps are regulating WOTUS 
consistent with the pre-2015 regulatory regime.\20\
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    \18\ Id.
    \19\ Id.; see also EPA, Definition of ``Waters of the United 
States'': Rule Status and Litigation Update, available at https://
www.epa.gov/wotus/definition-waters-united-states-rule-status-and-
litigation-update.
    \20\ Id.
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    Some states and stakeholders have raised concerns with the 
pace of implementation of the conforming WOTUS rule, and 
whether EPA and the Corps are complying with Sackett's 
ruling.\21\ Other states and stakeholders have expressed 
dissatisfaction with the Sackett ruling and called for states 
and the Executive Branch to evaluate other authorities to 
address the effects of Sackett.\22\ Additional stakeholders 
have recognized that Congress could intervene to further speak 
to the scope of waters addressed by the CWA.\23\
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    \21\ Sam Hess, States, Industry Launch Broad Legal Attack on EPA's 
Amended WOTUS Rule, InsideEPA, (Feb. 6, 2024), available at https://
insideepa.com/daily-news/states-industry-launch-broad-legal-attack-epa-
s-amended-wotus-rule.
    \22\ Sam Hess, Groups Urge Officials To Expand Wetlands Protections 
In Wake of Sackett, InsideEPA, (June 4, 2024), available at https://
insideepa.com/daily-news/groups-urge-officials-expand-wetlands-
protections-wake-sackett.
    \23\ See James M. McElfish, Jr., What Comes Next for Clean Water? 
Six Consequences of Sackett v. EPA, Environmental Law Institute, 
available at https://www.eli.org/vibrant-environment-blog/what-comes-
next-clean-water-six-consequences-sackett-v-epa.
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              IV. SECTION 401: WATER QUALITY CERTIFICATION

    Section 401 of the CWA requires that an applicant for a 
Federal license or permit for any activity that may result in a 
discharge covered by the CWA provide the Federal licensing or 
permitting agency with a certification.\24\ Such a 
certification is issued by the state or tribe (or EPA, in the 
case of tribal lands where a tribe has not been granted 
treatment as a state, as well as on Federal lands with 
exclusive Federal jurisdiction) that would be affected by the 
discharge.\25\ Under section 401, the certifying authority may 
grant, grant with conditions, deny, or waive certification of 
proposed Federal licenses or permits.\26\ Activities that 
commonly require a certification under section 401 of the CWA 
include hydropower projects that require licenses from the 
Federal Energy Regulatory Commission (FERC), industrial and 
municipal point sources requiring permits under section 402 of 
the CWA, and projects requiring dredge and fill permits under 
section 404 of the CWA or sections 9 and 10 of the Rivers and 
Harbors Act.\27\
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    \24\ Laura Gatz & Kate R. Bowers, Cong. Rsch. Serv. (R46615), Clean 
Water Act Section 401: Overview and Recent Developments, (Aug. 24, 
2022), available at https://www.crs.gov/Reports/R46615 [hereinafter 
R46615].
    \25\ Id.; see also CWA, supra note 1 at Sec.  401.
    \26\ Id.
    \27\ Id.
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    On April 10, 2019, President Trump signed Executive Order 
13686, directing the EPA to review its section 401 guidance and 
regulations.\28\ Prior to that time, regulations promulgated in 
1971 and interim guidance published in 2010 were in effect.\29\ 
Later in 2019, the Trump Administration issued updated 
guidance, primarily concerning statutory and regulatory 
timelines for review, appropriate scope for section 401 
certification, and information the certifying authority may 
consider in its certification review.\30\ In 2020, the Trump 
Administration published a final rule, rescinding the 2019 
guidance, while addressing many of these concerns.\31\
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    \28\ Exec. Order No. 13686, Fed. Reg. 7619, (Apr. 10, 2019), 
available at https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2019/04/15/2019-
07656/promoting-energy-infrastructure-and-economic-growth.
    \29\ R46615, supra note 26.
    \30\ Id.
    \31\ Clean Water Act Section 401 Certification Rule, 85 Fed. Reg. 
42,210 (July 13, 2020).
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    Similarly, on January 20, 2021, President Biden signed 
Executive Order 13990, directing a review of regulations 
promulgated during the first Trump Administration.\32\ In June 
2021, EPA issued a notice of intent to amend the 2020 rule.\33\ 
Finally, in November 2023, the Biden Administration's amended 
CWA Section 401 rule went into effect.\34\ In particular, the 
rule again concerned timelines for review, appropriate project 
scope for section 401 certification, and what information is 
necessary for a certifying authority to include in its 
certification decision.\35\
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    \32\ Exec. Order 13,990, 86 Fed. Reg. 7037, (Jan. 20, 2021), 
available at https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2021/01/25/2021-
01765/protecting-public-health-and-the-environment-and-restoring-
science-to-tackle-the-climate-crisis.
    \33\ Notice of Intention to Reconsider and Revise the Clean Water 
Act Section 401 Certification Rule, 86 Fed. Reg. 29,541 (June 2, 2021).
    \34\ Clean Water Act Section 401 Water Quality Certification 
Improvement Rule, 88 Fed. Reg. 66,558 (Nov. 27, 2023), available at 
https://www.epa.gov/system/files/documents/2023-09/federal-register-
version-of-2023-clean-water-act-section-401-water-quality-
certification-improvement-rule.pdf.
    \35\ Id.; see also EPA, Fact Sheet, Overview Fact Sheet on the 
Final 2023 Rule, available at https://www.epa.gov/system/files/
documents/2023-09/Overview%20Fact%20Sheet%20on%20the
%20Final%202023%20Rule_508.pdf.
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      V. SECTION 402: NATIONAL POLLUTANT DISCHARGE ELIMINATION
                            SYSTEM (NPDES)

    Section 402 of the CWA authorizes the NPDES program for 
regulation of discharges of pollutants from point sources.\36\ 
Point sources are defined as ``any discernible, confined, and 
discrete conveyance, such as a pipe, ditch, channel, conduit, 
discrete fissure, or container'' \37\ from which pollutants may 
be discharged.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \36\ CWA, supra note 1 at Sec.  402; CRS Report RL30030, supra note 
3; EPA, NPDES Permit Basics, available at https://www.epa.gov/npdes/
npdes-permit-basics [hereinafter NPDES Permit Basics].
    \37\ NPDES Permit Basics, supra note 38.
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    NPDES permits require the point source discharger to attain 
technology-based effluent limits, while specifying the 
numerical effluent limitations that sources must meet in order 
to guarantee water quality, where possible.\38\ If technology-
based limits are not sufficient to meet locally-established 
water quality standards, the CWA requires permittees to achieve 
more stringent water-quality based effluent limits designed to 
meet applicable water quality standards.\39\ EPA is responsible 
for defining the level of treatment required for municipalities 
and various industries, as well as for developing minimum water 
quality criteria specifying the maximum concentrations of 
pollutants permitted for different designated uses of 
waters.\40\
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    \38\ CRS Report 30030, supra note 3.
    \39\ EPA, Water Quality-Based Effluent Limits, available at https:/
/www3.epa.gov/npdes/pubs/chapt_06.pdf.
    \40\ Id. at 48.
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    NPDES permits are issued for up to five years and must be 
renewed thereafter if discharge is to continue.\41\ Point 
sources may in some instances apply for a NPDES general permit 
as opposed to a NPDES individual permit. A NPDES individual 
permit is written for site-specific discharges that are unique 
to a specific location or discharge.\42\ Conversely, NPDES 
general permits cover ``multiple dischargers with similar 
operations and types of discharges.'' \43\
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    \41\ NPDES Permit Basics, supra note 38.
    \42\ Id.
    \43\ Id.
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    EPA runs the NPDES permitting program, but the CWA 
authorizes EPA to approve individual states and tribes to 
manage their own NPDES permitting programs.\44\ Nearly all 
states have assumed administration of their own NPDES programs, 
with only three exceptions: Massachusetts, New Hampshire, and 
New Mexico.\45\
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    \44\ CRS Report 30030, supra note 3.
    \45\ Id.
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               VI. SECTION 404: DREDGED OR FILL MATERIAL

    Section 404 of the CWA authorizes a separate type of 
regulatory program for permits required to discharge dredged or 
fill materials. EPA and the Corps play complementary roles in 
implementing the section 404 program, with the Corps in charge 
of issuing permits for discharge of dredged or fill material, 
using a set of environmental guidelines promulgated by EPA, in 
conjunction with the Corps, to evaluate permit 
applications.\46\ The Corps likewise administers the day-to-day 
program, including jurisdictional determinations (JDs), which 
certify the presence or absence of waters subject to CWA 
regulation.\47\
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    \46\ Id.; see also CWA, supra note 1 at Sec.  404(b).
    \47\ EPA, Permit Program under CWA Section 404, available at 
https://www.epa.gov/cwa-404/permit-program-under-cwa-section-404.
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    Similar to NPDES permits, section 404 permits are typically 
issued for a term of five years, and there are both individual 
and general permits.\48\ The CWA authorizes the issuance of 
general permits for discharges that are ``similar in nature, 
will only cause minimal adverse environmental effects when 
performed separately, and will have only minimal cumulative 
adverse effect on the environment'' \49\ and are issued on a 
nationwide, regional, or state basis for particular categories 
of activities.\50\ According to the Corps, approximately 94 
percent of the 62,000 permits approved in fiscal year 2022 were 
authorized by regional and nationwide permits, with the 
remainder authorized by individual permits.\51\ Approximately 
75 percent of the general permits were issued in 60 days or 
less and approximately 59 percent of the individual permits 
were issued in 120 days or less.\52\ The most recent reissuance 
of nationwide permits (NWPs) went into effect in February 
2022.\53\
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    \48\ Id.
    \49\ Id.
    \50\ Id.; see also CWA, supra note 1, at Sec.  404(e).
    \51\ U.S. Army Corps of Engineers Digital Library, FY2024 Corps 
Justification Sheets: Regulatory Program at 12, available at https://
usace.contentdm.oclc.org/digital/collection/p16021coll6/id/2350.
    \52\ Id.
    \53\ U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, Nationwide Permit Program, 
available at https://www.mvn.usace.army.mil/Missions/Regulatory/
Permits/Nationwide-Permits-Program/.
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    Similar to the NPDES permitting process, EPA may also allow 
states and tribes to assume authority to grant or deny dredge 
and fill permits under section 404, with the condition that 
states or tribes develop a wetlands permit program consistent 
with the CWA.\54\ Currently, two states are approved to manage 
their section 404 program: Michigan and New Jersey.\55\ The 
status of the approval of a state-managed program for the State 
of Florida is under litigation.\56\ In December 2024, EPA 
finalized a rule updating the regulations governing state and 
tribal assumption of section 404 permitting for the first time 
since 1988.\57\
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    \54\ EPA, State or Tribal Assumption of the CWA Section 404 Permit 
Program, available at https://www.epa.gov/cwa-404/state-or-tribal-
assumption-cwa-section-404-permit-program.
    \55\ Id.
    \56\ Id.; see also State of Florida, State 404 Program, available 
at https://floridadep.gov/water/submerged-lands-environmental-
resources-coordination/content/state-404-program.
    \57\ Clean Water Act Section 404 Tribal and State Assumption 
Program, 89 Fed. Reg. 10,345 (Dec. 18, 2024).
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                             VII. WITNESSES

     LMr. Robert D. Singletary, Executive Director, 
Oklahoma Department of Environmental Quality
     LThe Honorable Shawn M. LaTourette, Commissioner, 
New Jersey Department of Environmental Protection
     LMr. Noah Hanners, Executive Vice President, Nucor 
Corporation, on behalf of the National Association of 
Manufacturers
     LMr. Buddy Hasten, President and Chief Executive 
Officer, Arkansas Electric Cooperative Corporation, on behalf 
of the National Rural Electric Cooperative Association

 
                    AMERICA BUILDS: CLEAN WATER ACT
                    PERMITTING AND PROJECT DELIVERY

                              ----------                              

                       TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 11, 2025

                  House of Representatives,
   Subcommittee on Water Resources and Environment,
            Committee on Transportation and Infrastructure,
                                                    Washington, DC.
    The subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 10:04 a.m., in 
Room 2167, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Mike Collins 
(Chairman of the subcommittee) presiding.
    Mr. Collins. The Subcommittee on Water Resources and 
Environment will come to order. I ask unanimous consent that 
the chairman be authorized to declare a recess at any time 
during today's hearing.
    Without objection, so ordered.
    I also ask unanimous consent that Members not on the 
subcommittee be permitted to sit with the subcommittee at 
today's hearing and ask questions.
    Without objection, so ordered.
    As a reminder, if Members wish to insert a document into 
the record, please also email it to [email protected].
    I now recognize myself for the purpose of an opening 
statement for 5 minutes.

      OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. MIKE COLLINS OF GEORGIA,
       CHAIRMAN,  SUBCOMMITTEE ON  WATER  RESOURCES  AND
       ENVIRONMENT

    Mr. Collins. For 50 years, the Clean Water Act has 
functioned to improve the quality of rivers, lakes, and streams 
throughout the country, including in my home State of Georgia. 
Back in 1972, when Congress passed the Clean Water Act, they 
recognized the importance of a Federal-State partnership as 
crucial to improving water quality and to providing a 
regulatory system that communities could realistically follow.
    While the Clean Water Act has had many successes in 
maintaining and improving water quality for the benefits of 
citizens and industries nationwide, it unfortunately has been 
used to slow or stop progress on important projects.
    The Transportation and Infrastructure Committee has begun 
this Congress by focusing on the theme ``America Builds'' 
because we know how important it is to the well-being of our 
country that we remain a world leader in our transportation 
networks, infrastructure construction, and economic 
development.
    The Clean Water Act is one of the most consequential laws 
that our country has, and it is important to ensure that it is 
being used to balance the goals of water quality with ensuring 
project completion, improving supply chain networks, and 
delivering economic prosperity.
    In short, to let America build, the Clean Water Act needs 
to work.
    States, manufacturers, energy producers, cities, farmers, 
builders, homeowners, utilities, and many others rely on a 
Clean Water Act permitting process that is easy to understand, 
easy to follow, and easy to implement. Unfortunately, too often 
these groups referred to as regulated communities are left in 
the dark or actively undermined by increased regulation under 
the CWA by trial lawyers looking to make a quick buck, 
entrenched bureaucrats who don't have the country's best 
interest at heart, and administrations who bend the knee to 
radical environmental activists.
    Now is the time to revisit the Clean Water Act to ensure 
that it puts America first. To do this, we need to hear from 
those most affected by the law in order to know how we can 
improve our regulatory environment without decreasing 
protections for water quality.
    President Trump has recognized the importance of unleashing 
our Nation's natural resources, ramping up energy production, 
and maintaining our physical infrastructure. These priorities 
will enhance the Trump administration's ability to pursue an 
America-first agenda that lets America build.
    As the chairman of the Water Resources and Environment 
Subcommittee, I am looking forward to working with my 
colleagues to ensure excellence in the transportation and 
infrastructure space and furthering the President's goals.
    Today's hearing marks an opportunity to do so by hearing 
from our witnesses on how to return the Clean Water Act to its 
goal of protecting our water bodies and allowing important 
projects to get done.
    [Mr. Collins' prepared statement follows:]

                                 
                                 
 Prepared Statement of Hon. Mike Collins, a Representative in Congress 
   from the State of Georgia, and Chairman, Subcommittee on Water 
   Resources and Environment
   
    For over fifty years, the Clean Water Act (CWA) has functioned to 
improve the quality of rivers, lakes, and streams throughout the 
country, including in my home state of Georgia. Back in 1972, when 
Congress passed the CWA, it recognized the importance of a federal-
state partnership as crucial to improving water quality, and to 
providing a regulatory system that communities could realistically 
follow.
    While the Clean Water Act has had many successes in maintaining and 
improving water quality for the benefits of citizens and industries 
nationwide, it unfortunately has also been used to slow or stop 
progress on important projects.
    The Transportation and Infrastructure Committee has begun this 
Congress by focusing on the theme ``America Builds,'' because we know 
how important it is to the well-being of our country that we remain a 
world leader in our transportation networks, infrastructure 
construction, and economic development.
    The Clean Water Act is one of the most consequential laws that our 
country has, and it is important to ensure that it is being used to 
balance the goals of water quality with ensuring project completion, 
improving supply chain networks, and delivering economic prosperity. In 
short, to let America build, the Clean Water Act needs to work.
    States, manufacturers, energy producers, cities, farmers, builders, 
homeowners, utilities, and many others rely on a Clean Water Act 
permitting process that is easy to understand, easy to follow, and easy 
to implement. Unfortunately, too often these groups we refer to as 
regulated communities are left in the dark or actively undermined by 
increased regulation under the CWA by trial lawyers looking to make a 
buck, entrenched bureaucrats who don't have the country's best 
interests at heart, and administrations who bend the knee to radical 
environmental activists.
    Now is the time to revisit the Clean Water Act, to ensure that it 
puts America first. To do this, we need to hear from those most 
affected by the law in order to know how we can improve our regulatory 
environment, without decreasing protections for water quality.
    President Trump has recognized the importance of unleashing our 
nation's natural resources, ramping up energy production, and 
maintaining our physical infrastructure. These priorities will enhance 
the Trump administration's ability to pursue an America first agenda 
that lets America build.
    As the Chairman of the Water Resources and Environment Subcommittee 
I am looking forward to working with my colleagues to ensure excellence 
in the transportation and infrastructure space and furthering the 
President's goals.
    Today's hearing marks an opportunity to do so by hearing from our 
witnesses on how to return the Clean Water Act to its goal of 
protecting our waterbodies and allowing important projects to get done.

    Mr. Collins. I now recognize Ranking Member Scholten for 5 
minutes for an opening statement.

         OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. HILLARY J. SCHOLTEN OF
          MICHIGAN, VICE RANKING MEMBER,  SUBCOMMITTEE ON
          WATER RESOURCES AND ENVIRONMENT

    Ms. Scholten. Thank you, Chairman Collins, and 
congratulations for your selection to lead the Subcommittee on 
Water Resources and Environment. I look forward to working with 
you, as the vice ranking member, in meeting the water-related 
needs of our Nation, our communities, and the hard-working 
families that we represent.
    I am privileged to serve Michigan's Third Congressional 
District in Congress, representing miles of beautiful Lake 
Michigan shoreline. It is a district whose history, lifestyle, 
and economic well-being are bound with the health of the Great 
Lakes.
    The Great Lakes are arguably the largest source of 
freshwater on the surface of the earth, containing roughly 20 
percent of the world's freshwater supply. For our region, the 
protections of the Great Lakes and the health of our 
environment is not a partisan issue, it is something that is 
ingrained in our culture, as we responsibly teach the next 
generation to be good stewards of our environment.
    Our quality of life and our very existence depend on clean 
water for everyday consumption--for commerce, recreation, and 
the overall economic vitality of the region. It supports our 
farmers who grow their crops from apples to pears, peach trees, 
and soybeans. It supports the foundation of the great craft 
beer that forms Beer City, USA, that I am so proud to 
represent.
    That is why I am so deeply concerned with the harm that 
this administration and the allies in Congress are imposing on 
our clean water future.
    In just 3 weeks, the President has thrown cities and towns 
into chaos by shutting down funding allocated by Congress for 
water infrastructure projects, including the historic 
investments in water infrastructure provided through the 
Bipartisan Infrastructure Law. This disarray has forced 
communities of all sizes to reevaluate how to deliver critical 
water infrastructure projects and will result in these projects 
taking longer, costing more, and ultimately delaying critical 
local economic development, and environmental and public health 
benefits.
    The administration's efforts will also undermine the 
roughly 28,000 jobs that are created for every $1 billion in 
water infrastructure investment, putting the jobs of laborers 
and manufacturers at risk, in addition to threatening our 
supply chains.
    Finally, these actions will hit the wallets of hard-working 
American families who will see higher water bills because of 
this uncertainty, at the same time that inflation is back on 
the rise.
    The silence of my colleagues across the aisle whose States 
and communities are equally impacted by the President's moves 
to undermine water infrastructure spending is somewhat 
surprising. It is my sincere hope that this silence is not a 
green light for further reduction in Federal water 
infrastructure spending. We need it more now than ever. Our 
communities cannot withstand further setbacks to Federal and 
State efforts to protect our water and our environment, and we 
cannot allow the President and his allies to burden American 
families with increased costs and public health risks.
    I welcome my colleagues to join me as I stand firmly in 
defense of our Great Lakes and freshwater supplies across the 
country to ensure a healthy environment and a strong economy 
for future generations.
    We can do both, and I look forward to working with anyone 
to realize this goal.
    Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.
    [Ms. Scholten's prepared statement follows:]

                                 
                                 
Prepared Statement of Hon. Hillary J. Scholten, a Representative in Con-
  gress  from  the  State  of Michigan,  and  Vice Ranking Member,  Sub-
  committee on Water Resources and Environment
  
    Thank you, Chairman Collins, and congratulations for your selection 
to lead the Subcommittee on Water Resources and Environment. I look 
forward to working with you as the Vice Ranking Member in meeting the 
water-related needs of our nation, our communities, and the hardworking 
families that we represent.
    I'm privileged to serve Michigan's 3rd Congressional District in 
Congress, representing miles of beautiful Lake Michigan shoreline. It's 
a district whose history, lifestyle, and economic well-being are bound 
with the health of the Great Lakes.
    The Great Lakes are arguably the largest source of freshwater on 
the surface of the Earth, containing roughly 20 percent of the world's 
freshwater supply. For our region, the protections of the Great Lakes 
and the health of our environment is not a partisan issue, it's 
something that is ingrained in our culture, as we responsibly teach the 
next generation to be good stewards of our environment.
    Our quality of life and our very existence depend on clean water 
for everyday consumption--for commerce, recreation, and the overall 
economic vitality of the region. It supports our farmers who grow their 
crops from apples to pears, peach trees and soybeans. It supports the 
foundation of the great craft beer that forms Beer City, USA, that I'm 
so proud to represent. That is why I am so deeply concerned with the 
harm that this administration and the allies in Congress are imposing 
on our clean water future.
    In just three weeks, the President has thrown cities and towns into 
chaos by shutting down funding allocated by Congress for water 
infrastructure projects, including the historic investments in water 
infrastructure provided through the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law. This 
disarray has forced communities of all sizes to re-evaluate how to 
deliver critical water infrastructure projects and will result in these 
projects taking longer, costing more, and ultimately delaying critical 
local economic development, environmental and public health benefits. 
The administration's efforts will also undermine the roughly 28,000 
jobs that are created for every billion dollars in water infrastructure 
investment, putting the jobs of laborers and manufacturers at risk, in 
addition to threatening our supply chains.
    Finally, these actions will hit the wallets of hardworking American 
families who will see higher water bills because of this uncertainty at 
the same time that inflation is back on the rise. The silence of my 
colleagues across the aisle whose states and communities are equally 
impacted by the President's moves to undermine water infrastructure 
spending is somewhat surprising. It is my sincere hope that this 
silence is not a green light for further reduction in federal water 
infrastructure spending. We need it more now than ever. Our communities 
cannot withstand further setbacks to federal and state efforts to 
protect our water and our environment, and we cannot allow the 
President and his allies to burden American families with increased 
costs and public health risks.
    I welcome my colleagues to join me as I stand firmly in defense of 
our Great Lakes and freshwater supplies across the country to ensure a 
healthy environment and a strong economy for future generations. We can 
do both, and I look forward to working with anyone to realize this 
goal. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.

    Mr. Collins. The Chair now recognizes the ranking member of 
the full committee, Mr. Larsen, for 5 minutes for an opening 
statement.

         OPENING  STATEMENT OF HON. RICK LARSEN OF WASH-
          INGTON, RANKING MEMBER, COMMITTEE ON TRANSPOR-
          TATION AND INFRASTRUCTURE

    Mr. Larsen of Washington. Thank you, Chair Collins, for 
holding this hearing on the ways we can ensure that job-
creating infrastructure keeps America moving and reduces supply 
chain challenges.
    This hearing is part of a series, ``America Builds,'' and 
thanks to the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law, America is 
building again, and we need to keep it going.
    Holding up job-creating investments will not help America 
build. Slashing the workforce of agencies that play a critical 
role in permitting these projects will not keep America 
building.
    Congress invested $13.8 billion in the Bipartisan 
Infrastructure Law to upgrade wastewater systems, prevent 
pollution, and support the quality of life across the country. 
These investments are critical, providing a lifeline to 
communities struggling to maintain water quality.
    These investments equal jobs. For every $1 billion invested 
in cleaning up pollution in your water, approximately 28,000 
jobs are created, according to the National Utility Contractors 
Association.
    These investments are helping drive the low 4-percent 
unemployment rate while modernizing our infrastructure.
    In just the last few years, in my own district, Washington 
State's Second District, local workers are upgrading aging 
sewer and water equipment and protecting the local groundwater 
supply.
    From a $1.4 million State Revolving Fund loan in Whatcom 
County for replacing antiquated equipment, to a $200,000 
engineering review grant to the Lummi Nation for assessing 
their wastewater needs, these job-creating investments are 
making a difference.
    And the work isn't finished. The most recent Environmental 
Protection Agency report on wastewater infrastructure needs 
estimated we would need $271 billion nationwide over the next 
20 years to meet the standards that keep pollution out of your 
water.
    These challenges are not limited to one region; they affect 
communities from coast to coast, from my coast, to the chair's 
coast, to the inland lakes and rivers of the vice ranking 
member.
    Part of keeping America building is improving permitting 
for infrastructure projects. Through the BIL, the Inflation 
Reduction Act, and the CHIPS Act, we are seeing the benefits of 
investing in the workforce and the technology necessary to 
approve projects.
    Through investments in enhancing permitting efficiency 
across the Federal Government, the Biden administration reduced 
the median time to complete an environmental impact statement 
by 8 months--23 percent faster than Trump 1.0. So, let's keep 
that going.
    We can invest in infrastructure and protect the environment 
at the same time, ensuring that America builds while also 
making sure America breathes clean air and drinks clean water.
    When Congress passed the Clean Water Act over 50 years ago, 
Members recognized the effectiveness and importance of the 
comprehensive, pollution-prevention measures--stopping 
pollution before it happens rather than simply cleaning it up.
    The Clean Water Act was enacted with an overwhelming 
bipartisan majority. Before this law, rivers and lakes served 
as little more than open sewers. Lake Erie was pronounced dead 
and Ohio's Cuyahoga River literally caught on fire.
    But thanks to the Clean Water Act, the Cascade River in my 
district was designated as an Outstanding Resource Water by the 
State of Washington, which protects that river from future 
activities or development that would degrade water quality.
    For decades, Republicans and Democrats shared these 
bipartisan principles to defend clean water, maintain a strong 
Federal-State partnership to protect our waters, stop pollution 
from entering the system in the first place, and support a 
robust Federal floor of protections while allowing States to do 
more, but not less.
    And the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law shows what happens 
when Congress does the right things and funds infrastructure.
    Step 1 to keep the progress going is to ensure that States 
and local governments can continue to depend on this Federal 
investment. Freezing funds from the State Revolving Fund, from 
the Superfund, or other EPA programs is a step backwards.
    Predictable, reliable funding helps State and local 
government leaders make their decisions on allocating dollars 
to ensure the biggest bang for the buck.
    Sowing chaos and uncertainty on Federal and State efforts 
to protect our water and environment will not continue to help 
the American people.
    Working in a bipartisan fashion, Congress passed 
comprehensive environmental protection laws like the Clean 
Water Act and historic investments in infrastructure like the 
Bipartisan Infrastructure Law. I look forward to finding ways 
to build on these bipartisan accomplishments this Congress.
    I want to thank our witnesses, all of them, for being here 
today. I look forward to your testimony, and with that, I yield 
back.
    [Mr. Larsen of Washington's prepared statement follows:]

                                 
                                 
 Prepared Statement of Hon. Rick Larsen, a Representative in Congress 
   from the  State of Washington,  and  Ranking Member,  Committee on 
   Transportation and Infrastructure
   
    Thank you, Chairman Collins, for holding this hearing on ways we 
can ensure job-creating infrastructure keeps America moving and reduces 
supply chain challenges.
    This hearing is part of a series, ``America Builds.'' Thanks to the 
Bipartisan Infrastructure Law, America is building again, and we need 
to keep it going.
    Holding up job-creating investments will not help America build. 
Slashing the workforce of agencies that play a critical role in 
permitting these projects will not keep America building.
    Congress invested $13.8 billion in the BIL to upgrade wastewater 
systems, prevent pollution and support quality of life across the 
country.
    These investments are critical, providing a lifeline to communities 
struggling to maintain water quality.
    These investments equal jobs.
    For every $1 billion invested in cleaning up pollution in your 
water, approximately 28,000 jobs are created, according to the National 
Utility Contractors Association.
    These investments are helping drive the low, 4 percent unemployment 
rate while modernizing our infrastructure.
    In just the last few years, in my own district, Washington State's 
Second District, local workers are upgrading aging sewer and water 
equipment and protecting local groundwater supply.
    From a $1.4 million State Revolving Fund (SFR) loan in Whatcom 
County for replacing antiquated equipment to a $200,000 engineering 
review grant to Lummi Nation for assessing their wastewater needs, 
these job-creating investments are making a difference.
    And the work isn't finished. The most recent Environmental 
Protection Agency (EPA) report on wastewater infrastructure needs 
estimated we would need $271 billion nationwide over the next twenty 
years to meet standards that keep pollution out of your water.
    These challenges are not limited to one region; they affect 
communities from coast to coast, from my coast, to the Chair's coast, 
to the inland lakes and rivers of the Vice Ranking Member.
    Part of keeping America building is improving permitting for 
infrastructure projects. Through the BIL, the Inflation Reduction Act 
and the CHIPS Act, we are seeing the benefits of investing in the 
workforce and technology necessary to approve projects.
    Through investments in enhancing permitting efficiency across the 
federal government, the Biden administration reduced the median time to 
complete an Environmental Impact Statement (EIS) by eight months--23 
percent faster than Trump 1.0.
    So let's keep that going.
    We can invest in infrastructure and protect the environment at the 
same time, ensuring that America builds while also making sure that 
America breathes clean air and drinks clean water.
    When Congress passed the Clean Water Act over 50 years ago, Members 
recognized the effectiveness and importance of comprehensive pollution 
prevention measures--stopping pollution before it happens rather than 
simply cleaning it up.
    The Clean Water Act was enacted with an overwhelming bipartisan 
majority. Before this law, rivers and lakes served as little more than 
open sewers--Lake Erie was pronounced ``dead,'' and Ohio's Cuyahoga 
River literally caught on fire.
    Thanks to the Clean Water Act, the Cascade River in my district was 
designated as an Outstanding Resource Water by the State of Washington, 
which protects that river from future activities or development that 
would degrade water quality.
    For decades, Republicans and Democrats shared these bipartisan 
principles to defend clean water: maintain a strong federal-state 
partnership to protect our waters; stop pollution from entering the 
system in the first place; and support a robust federal floor of 
protections while allowing states to do more, but not less.
    The BIL shows what happens when Congress does the right thing and 
funds infrastructure.
    Step one to keep the progress going is ensuring that states and 
local government leaders can continue to depend on federal investment.
    Freezing funds from the State Revolving Fund, Superfund or other 
EPA programs is a step backwards.
    Predictable, reliable funding helps states and local government 
leaders make decisions on allocating their taxpayer dollars to ensure 
the biggest bang for the buck.
    Sowing chaos and uncertainty on federal and state efforts to 
protect our water and environment will not continue to help the 
American people.
    Working in a bipartisan fashion, Congress passed comprehensive 
environmental protection laws like the Clean Water Act and historic 
investments in infrastructure like the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law.
    I look forward to finding ways to build on these bipartisan 
accomplishments this Congress.
    Thank you to our witnesses for being here today. I look forward to 
your testimony.

    Mr. Collins. All right. Thank you. I want to welcome our 
witnesses. Thank you for your time and for being here today.
    We have with us today Mr. Robert Singletary, executive 
director of the Oklahoma Department of Environmental Quality; 
the Honorable Shawn LaTourette, commissioner of the New Jersey 
Department of Environmental Protection; Mr. Noah Hanners, 
executive vice president of the Nucor Corporation, on behalf of 
the National Association of Manufacturers; and Mr. Buddy 
Hasten, president and CEO of the Arkansas Electric Cooperative 
Corporation, on behalf of the National Rural Electric 
Cooperative Association.
    I want to briefly go over the lighting system for you there 
in case you don't know. There are three lights. The green means 
you have plenty of time, the yellow means you need to start 
finishing up, and of course, the red means to go ahead and 
conclude with your remarks.
    I am going to also ask for unanimous consent that the 
witnesses' full statements be included in the record.
    Without objection, so ordered.
    I also ask unanimous consent that the record of today's 
hearing remain open until such time as our witnesses have 
provided answers to any questions that may be submitted to them 
in writing.
    Without objection, so ordered.
    I also ask unanimous consent that the record remain open 
for 15 days for any additional comments and information 
submitted by Members or witnesses to be included in the record 
of today's hearing.
    Without objection, so ordered.
    As your written testimony has been made part of the record, 
the subcommittee asks that you limit your oral remarks to 5 
minutes.
    And with that, Mr. Singletary, you are recognized for 5 
minutes for your testimony.

     TESTIMONY OF ROBERT D. SINGLETARY, EXECUTIVE DIREC-
      TOR, OKLAHOMA  DEPARTMENT OF  ENVIRONMENTAL  QUAL-
      ITY;  HON. SHAWN M. LaTOURETTE,  COMMISSIONER, NEW
      JERSEY  DEPARTMENT  OF  ENVIRONMENTAL  PROTECTION;
      NOAH HANNERS, EXECUTIVE VICE PRESIDENT, NUCOR COR-
      PORATION, ON BEHALF OF THE NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF 
      MANUFACTURERS;  AND  BUDDY HASTEN,  PRESIDENT  AND
      CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER,  ELECTRIC COOPERATIVES OF
      ARKANSAS,  ON  BEHALF  OF THE NATIONAL RURAL ELEC-
      TRIC COOPERATIVE ASSOCIATION

     TESTIMONY OF ROBERT D. SINGLETARY, EXECUTIVE DIREC-
      TOR, OKLAHOMA  DEPARTMENT OF  ENVIRONMENTAL  QUAL-
      ITY

    Mr. Singletary. Good morning, Chairman Collins, Vice 
Ranking Member Scholten, members of the committee. My name is 
Rob Singletary, and I have the privilege to serve as the 
executive director of the Oklahoma Department of Environmental 
Quality.
    Thank you for the opportunity to appear before you this 
morning and to share Oklahoma's views on the implementation of 
various portions of the Federal Clean Water Act.
    The Oklahoma Department of Environmental Quality is the 
primary agency responsible for protecting public health and the 
environment in the State of Oklahoma, and our responsibilities 
include the implementation of the Clean Water Act within our 
State.
    This morning, my comments are focused primarily on section 
401 of the Clean Water Act with just a few minor comments 
related to section 402 and ``waters of the U.S.''
    To begin, Oklahoma is a fierce proponent of the proper 
implementation of cooperative federalism as well as the right 
of States to set their own water quality standards and to 
protect water quality within their borders.
    Section 401 of the act provides a powerful and very 
important tool that allows States to ensure that water quality 
within their borders is properly protected.
    However, the 401 certification process has been used in the 
past as an opportunity to address general or nonwater quality-
related concerns. We feel strongly that this powerful tool 
should be reserved for efforts specifically related to water-
resource protection.
    We believe that allowing the scope of this review under 
this provision to be broadened beyond the protection of water 
resources would undermine the legitimacy of the 401 
certification process and misalign it from the overall purpose 
of the Clean Water Act.
    In addition, even if a particular State was not interested 
in expanding the process beyond the protection of water 
resources, third parties could potentially seek to force a 
State to address broader concerns through this process if a 
broader scope of review was adopted.
    Even the scope of the current version of the rule, which 
purports to limit the 401 certification review to water-related 
impacts, is still ambiguous and potentially subject to 
misapplication.
    This ambiguity expands the workloads of State agencies, 
complicates and lengthens the review process, and makes 
certification determinations more vulnerable to legal 
challenges, potentially forcing State agencies to defend in 
court why they did or did not consider every potential water 
quality-related impact, no matter how distant or how unlikely.
    This, of course, would be a very difficult legal standard 
to meet.
    If statutory changes are ever considered, we advocate for 
clarifying language that would ensure that future EPA 
administrations are unable to expand the use of this process 
beyond the protection of water resources or beyond those water-
quality impacts clearly attributable to the project at issue.
    In regard to section 402, currently the States are only 
allowed to issue NPDES permits for periods of 5 years or less. 
We strongly support providing States with the flexibility, at 
their discretion, to issue NPDES permits for longer periods, up 
to 10 years.
    Providing a longer period would provide more certainty for 
applicants, and it would effectively cut the permitting process 
in half over that 10-year period.
    In regard to ``waters of the U.S.,'' Oklahoma has not 
sought assumption of the section 404 permitting program. So, 
our permitting programs are focused solely on stormwater and 
direct discharge permits.
    Since our agency has delegation under section 402 to issue 
NPDES permits into ``waters of the U.S.,'' and since we have 
authority to issue discharge permits into all other waters of 
the State, our permitting programs are not significantly 
impacted by the welcome changes to the definition of ``waters 
of the U.S.,'' under the Supreme Court's decision in Sackett.
    However, we have heard from applicants within the State 
that they do continue to experience delays in receiving 
applicability determinations from our Federal counterparts.
    We believe it would be useful if there was a joint Federal-
State effort, employing the best available data and tools to 
map jurisdictional waters.
    Of course, this type of initiative would require ongoing 
effort and some expense, but it would likely decrease 
permitting timelines and provide more clarity or certainty to 
applicants.
    Again, thank you for the opportunity to participate in this 
important discussion. As always, we look forward to working 
with you, with our Federal co-regulators, and other 
stakeholders as we pursue our mission to protect and improve 
public health and the environment in a manner that supports and 
advances prosperity for current and future generations.
    Thank you.
    [Mr. Singletary's prepared statement follows:]

                                 
                                 
Prepared Statement of Robert D. Singletary, Executive Director, Oklahoma
                 Department of Environmental Quality
              
                               Testimony
                               
    Good morning, Chairman Collins, Ranking Member Wilson, and Members 
of the Subcommittee. My name is Rob Singletary and I have the privilege 
to serve as the Executive Director of the Oklahoma Department of 
Environmental Quality. Thank you for the opportunity to appear before 
you this morning and to share Oklahoma's views on the implementation of 
various portions of the Federal Clean Water Act.
    The Oklahoma Department of Environmental Quality is the primary 
agency responsible for protecting human health and the environment in 
the State of Oklahoma, and our responsibilities include the 
implementation of the Clean Water Act within the State.

                      Clean Water Act Section 401

    To begin, Oklahoma is a fierce proponent of the proper 
implementation of cooperative federalism, as well as the right of 
States to set water quality standards and to protect water quality (in 
general) within their boundaries. Section 401 of the Clean Water Act 
provides a powerful tool that allows States to ensure that water 
quality within their boundaries is properly protected. However, the 
Sec.  401 certification process has been used (in the past) as an 
opportunity to address general or non-water quality related concerns. 
We feel strongly that this powerful tool should be reserved for efforts 
specifically related to the protection of water resources.
    Although not directly an issue with the current rule, we believe 
that allowing the scope of review under this Clean Water Act provision 
to be broadened beyond the protection of water resources (as has been 
done in the past) would undermine the legitimacy of the Sec.  401 
certification process and misalign it from the overall purpose of the 
Clean Water Act. In addition, even if a particular State was not 
interested in expanding the process beyond the protection of water 
resources, third parties could potentially seek to force a State to 
address broader concerns through this process--if the broader scope of 
review was allowed.
    Even the scope of the current version of EPA's implementing rule, 
which purports to limit the Sec.  401 certification review to water 
related impacts, is still ambiguous and potentially subject to 
misapplication. For example, where a US Army Corps of Engineers permit 
would authorize discharges associated with building a pipeline, the 
current rule would require the certifying State to evaluate not only 
the effects of the discharges the Corps permit would authorize, but 
also any effects of operating the pipeline even though the operation 
may be subject to a different Federal license or permit. Effectively, 
this would result in the certifying authority addressing the adverse 
impacts contributed to by a federally licensed permitted activity, not 
just the adverse water quality impacts caused exclusively by the 
activity.
    This ambiguity expands the workload of State agencies, complicates 
and lengthens the review process, and makes certification 
determinations more vulnerable to legal challenge--potentially forcing 
State agencies to defend in court why they did or did not consider 
every potential ``water-quality related'' impact of a project, a 
difficult legal standard to meet.
    We don't anticipate that the current EPA administration will seek 
to broaden such review; however, if statutory changes are ever 
considered, we would advocate for clarifying language that would ensure 
that future EPA administrations would not seek to promulgate 
regulations expanding the use of this process beyond the protection of 
water resources or beyond those water quality impacts clearly 
attributable to the project at issue. It's important to mention that 
even in the event that unforeseen impacts to water quality were to 
occur, we (in Oklahoma at least) still have the authority to address 
any such pollution through our State program and State authority.

                  Waters of the United States (WOTUS)

    In regard to WOTUS, Oklahoma has not sought authority under Sec.  
404 of the CWA, so our implementation (except for the 401 certification 
process) is focused solely on stormwater and discharge permits. Since 
our agency has delegation to issue NPDES permits into WOTUS under Sec.  
402 of the Act and since we have State authority to issue discharge 
permits in all other waters of the State, our programs (except, of 
course, for our Sec.  401 certification program) are not directly 
impacted by the welcomed changes to the definition of WOTUS under the 
Supreme Court's decision in Sackett. However, we have anecdotally heard 
from applicants within the State that they continue to experience some 
delays in receiving Applicability Determinations from our Federal 
counterparts. We believe it would be useful if there was a joint 
Federal/State effort (employing the best available data and tools, of 
course) to map jurisdictional waters. This type of initiative would 
require ongoing effort, but it would likely decrease permitting 
timelines and provide more clarity or certainty to applicants.

                               Conclusion

    Again, thank you for the opportunity to come before you and to 
participate in this important discussion. As always, we look forward to 
working with you, our federal co-regulators, and other stakeholders, as 
we pursue our mission to protect and improve human health and the 
environment in a manner that supports and advances prosperity for 
current and future generations. Thank you!

    Mr. Collins. All right. The Chair will now recognize 
Representative Pou to introduce our next witness, Commissioner 
LaTourette.
    Ms. Pou. Good morning, Chairman Collins, Ranking Member 
Scholten. Thank you for holding this hearing on one of the most 
vital and limited resources in our Nation: clean water.
    I am privileged to represent the Ninth Congressional 
District of New Jersey, and today, I am truly honored to be 
able to introduce one of our witnesses today, an expert in 
environmental issues, a leader in the great State of New 
Jersey, and a friend, Commissioner Shawn LaTourette.
    Commissioner LaTourette has over 25 years of experience in 
environmental quality assurance, natural resource management, 
and infrastructure development.
    When I was in the New Jersey State Senate, I was proud to 
vote to confirm him 4 years ago as our commissioner of 
environmental protection.
    Commissioner, thank you for joining us today.
    Mr. Collins. Thank you.
    Next, Commissioner LaTourette, you are recognized for 5 
minutes for your testimony.

         TESTIMONY OF HON. SHAWN M. LaTOURETTE,  COMMIS-
          SIONER, NEW JERSEY DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL
          PROTECTION

    Mr. LaTourette. Well, good morning to this entire 
committee. Thank you for holding this important hearing on this 
topic. Chairman Collins, Vice Ranking Member Scholten, our own 
Congresswoman Pou, thank you very much, honored to join you.
    I have the privilege of serving the 9.3 million residents 
that call New Jersey home as their commissioner of 
environmental protection.
    I also serve as a part-time adjunct professor of 
environmental law at the Rutgers Law School, and prior to my 
public service career, I was an attorney adviser that 
specialized in transportation and infrastructure projects, 
giving counsel to regulated entities on permitting issues 
including under the Clean Water Act.
    Today, I hope to offer this committee a perspective from 
New Jersey, the most densely populated State in the Nation, and 
the perspective of a State regulator, because, as you know, 
State entities, like the New Jersey Department of Environmental 
Protection, implement the Clean Water Act.
    Much like this subcommittee's work to evaluate regulatory 
processes and look for opportunities to improve them, so too do 
my NJDEP colleagues, working to consistently improve our 
programs and services, and in doing so, we ask ourselves hard 
questions about how we can best achieve the delicate balance of 
promoting economic growth and protecting the public health and 
the environment.
    In answering those questions, we ground ourselves in the 
fact that natural capital is always performing valuable 
services for the public.
    Our air, our land, our fish, our wildlife, they are all 
doing important work that our fellow residents would have to 
pay for if we don't act thoughtfully to conserve our resources 
and invest in improvements.
    For example, degrade the marshes and wetlands that filter 
our water for free, or permit the discharge of too many 
pollutants into our waterways, and our residents and taxpayers 
pay more to build and operate drinking water treatment plants.
    There is a poignant example of this balance within one of 
New Jersey's most notable industries: tourism. Our small but 
densely populated State has one of the Nation's largest 
coastlines, breathtaking bays, tidal rivers, and the famed 
Jersey Shore that is home to millions and that millions more 
visit each year as their getaway.
    As this subcommittee knows, the Clean Water Act is a 
program of cooperative federalism that relies upon partnership 
between the States and the Federal Government to effectuate the 
national goal of ridding ourselves of pollutants in waterways 
and achieving fishable and swimmable waters.
    The beauty of cooperative federalism lies in how the law 
empowers and supports States in taking local considerations 
into account, while meeting minimum Federal standards, and you 
see that cooperative federalism at play in section 401.
    Additionally, as one of only two States that have 
successfully assumed responsibility for implementing section 
404, our wetland program provides another example of 
cooperative federalism under the Clean Water Act.
    We initially sought assumption for two primary reasons: the 
first, to provide protective measures to minimize or avoid 
wetland disturbance, but importantly, to promote a streamlined, 
consistent, and more accessible permitting process, because in 
the absence of assumption, project applicants were often 
challenged to adhere to two different schemes under Federal and 
under State law.
    In New Jersey, we have seen the stability of the wetlands 
program under 404 firsthand in that while under Federal law, 
404 has been subject of perennial change, New Jersey's assumed 
program has remained stable for decades, unaffected by changes 
at the Federal level. And that is a level of continuity that 
our regulating community expects and demands.
    And as this committee also knows, our Nation's water 
infrastructure is critically important and underfunded. Even 
with the infusion of a mass of resources from the Bipartisan 
Infrastructure Law, we still have a $1.2 trillion national need 
for water infrastructure investment over the next 20 years.
    We in New Jersey have used our Clean Water State Revolving 
Fund Program to invest in our communities, the health of our 
waterways, and the businesses that need clean water to thrive.
    What I hope this committee learns today from our discussion 
is that we always have to be careful not to overburden business 
with regulation and processes that may not be as valuable to 
the public. But we also have to recognize the inextricable link 
between economic development and environmental protection.
    But let us not make false choices between a healthy 
environment and a healthy economy. Thank you.
    [Mr. LaTourette's prepared statement follows:]

                                 
                                 
   Prepared Statement of Hon. Shawn M. LaTourette, Commissioner, New 
             Jersey Department of Environmental Protection
             
    Good morning, Chairman Collins, Vice Ranking Member Scholten, and 
esteemed members of the Subcommittee on Water Resources and 
Environment. I am honored by your invitation to join this morning's 
Subcommittee hearing on ``Clean Water Act Permitting and Project 
Delivery.'' For those members I have yet to meet, my name is Shawn 
LaTourette, and I have the privilege of serving the 9.3 million 
residents of the State of New Jersey as their Commissioner of 
Environmental Protection. I also serve as the chairperson of the 
Infrastructure Working Group of the Environmental Council of the 
States, the nonpartisan organization of state environmental leaders, 
and as an adjunct professor of environmental law at Rutgers Law School. 
Prior to my public service career, I was an attorney-advisor that 
specialized in transportation and infrastructure projects and provided 
counsel to private industry and public entities on permitting, 
including under the Clean Water Act.
    Today, I hope to offer this Subcommittee a perspective from New 
Jersey--the most densely populated state in the nation--and the 
perspective of a state regulator, because, as you know, the Clean Water 
Act is largely implemented on the state level by agencies like the New 
Jersey Department of Environmental Protection (NJDEP).
    The moniker ``environmental protection'' actually fails to capture 
the full scope of services that agencies like NJDEP provide for the 
public we serve--because our work sits squarely at the intersection of 
environmental, health, and economic improvement. We do not protect our 
environment simply because natural beauty should be recognized and 
preserved, but because the economic growth and long-term success of our 
communities demands that the government maintain the free public 
services that clean, healthy, and accessible natural capital provides 
for the people we all serve.
    Much like this Subcommittee's work to evaluate regulatory processes 
and identify opportunities to expedite infrastructure development 
without sacrificing environmental quality, my NJDEP colleagues and I 
have committed ourselves to a practice of continual process 
improvement. As we work to consistently improve our programs and 
services, we ask ourselves hard questions about how best we can achieve 
the delicate balance of promoting economic growth while improving and 
protecting public health and the environment we all share.
    In answering those questions, we ground ourselves in the fact that 
natural capital is always performing valuable but largely invisible 
services for the public. Our air, land, water, fish, wildlife and their 
habitats are all doing important work that our fellow residents and 
taxpayers would otherwise have to pay for if we do not act thoughtfully 
to conserve natural resources and invest in environmental improvements. 
Degrade the wetlands and marshes, which filter our water for free, or 
permit the discharge of too many pollutants into our waterways, and our 
residents will pay more to build and operate drinking water treatment 
plants. Remove too much riparian vegetation (i.e., the trees whose 
roots literally hold together our riverbanks and help control flooding) 
and our residents pay to build a flood wall where that forest once was 
that protected their community from riverine flooding.
    In New Jersey, we see clearly our residents' expectation that their 
government will work to facilitate economic growth and opportunity 
while also improving and protecting water quality and, by extension, 
public health. There is a poignant example within one of New Jersey's 
most notable industries: tourism. Our small densely populated state has 
one of the nation's largest coastlines. Breathtaking bays, tidal 
rivers, and the famed Jersey Shore are home to millions, a cherished 
getaway for millions more, and an economic engine that helps powers our 
state and region. Our pristine beaches and quaint shore towns drive $50 
billion in annual travel and tourism spending. And all of that depends 
on one thing: the quality of our waters.

                  The Value of Cooperative Federalism
                  
    As this Subcommittee knows, the Clean Water Act is a program of 
cooperative federalism that relies upon a partnership between the 
states and the federal government to effectuate our shared national 
goal of improving and maintaining the quality of our waterways. The 
beauty of cooperative federalism as seen through the Clean Water Act 
lies in how the law empowers and supports state regulatory programs in 
taking local conditions into account while meeting minimum federal 
standards. This enables states to integrate their more discrete natural 
resource and economic considerations when determining how best to 
improve water quality.
    This cooperative federalism is at play in Section 401 of the Clean 
Water Act, which enables states to review federal actions or federally 
regulated activities that may result in discharges to waters within a 
state's jurisdiction to ensure that federal action does not conflict 
with state water quality requirements, standards, or criteria. As just 
one New Jersey example of Section 401 in practice, note that NJDEP 
routinely denies a Water Quality Certification for all nationwide 
permits (NWPs) adopted by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers. This denial 
is grounded in the fact that New Jersey administers its own water 
quality and related programs that have historically exceeded minimal 
federal standards. In short, NJDEP offers statewide general permits for 
the same activities governed by the NWPs, but with different and more 
stringent criteria. Thus, we routinely find that the NWPs do not 
adequately protect the health and safety of our jurisdictional waters. 
The practical application is that permit applicants must obtain a state 
permit for activities that would otherwise be subject to the NWPs.
    As one of only two states that have successfully assumed 
responsibility for implementing Section 404, New Jersey's wetland 
program provides another important reflection on cooperative federalism 
under the Clean Water Act. New Jersey sought assumption to achieve two 
primary goals: (1) ensure protective measures that avoid or minimize 
wetland disturbance and (2) provide a streamlined, consistent, and more 
accessible permitting process. In the absence of assumption, project 
applicants were often challenged to adhere to two different but 
overlapping permitting processes at both the state and federal levels. 
With assumption, receipt of a state-issued permit obviated the 
requirement for a federal permit for the same regulated activity, 
especially since New Jersey's wetland program exceeds federal minimum 
standards.
    Very importantly, assumption has provided a measure of consistency 
and reliability for New Jersey's regulated community. As federal 
implementation of Section 404 has been the subject of perennial change, 
New Jersey's assumed program has remained stable for several decades 
because state wetlands law remains unaffected by changes at the federal 
level. New Jersey's regulated community has appreciated this stability 
and has advocated for the State assumption. Additionally, assumption 
has enabled New Jersey to integrate its wetland program with other 
water-resource and watershed-management functions to implement one 
comprehensive program. As a result, NJDEP staff consider potential 
impacts more completely and seek to avoid or minimize potential 
conflicts resulting from isolated programs doing isolated reviews. This 
is both efficient and more protective of human health and the 
environment.

           The Criticality of Water Infrastructure Investment
           
    As this Subcommittee knows all too well, our nation's 
infrastructure is the backbone of our economy. We rely on water system 
assets to ensure that our people, communities, and businesses can 
thrive. As the most densely populated state in the nation, and with a 
thriving commercial and industrial sector, the stakes are particularly 
high for New Jersey when it comes to water infrastructure. The most 
recent Clean Water and Drinking Water needs surveys estimate twenty-
year nationwide needs of over $1.2 trillion, which includes $31.6 
billion in needs in New Jersey. Clean Water needs alone are estimated 
at $630 billion nationally over the next twenty years, which includes 
$19.4 billion in needs in New Jersey.
    Over the last several years, New Jersey has put its base Clean 
Water State Revolving Fund capitalization grants and the added funds 
made available under the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law to work for the 
people, communities, and business of our state. The continuity of these 
federal funding sources is critical to our Water Infrastructure 
Investment Plan, which brings state, federal, and private market funds 
together to extend the reach and impact of our investments. With 
crucial federal support, our New Jersey Water Bank facilitated more 
than $1 billion of water infrastructure investments in the prior state 
fiscal year--the most project value facilitated in a single year.
    All told, over the life of our water infrastructure program, the 
New Jersey Water Bank has issued $9 billion in low-interest long-term 
loans and has an additional $2 billion in short-term construction loans 
outstanding. Importantly, through reduced interest costs and principal 
forgiveness, these funding programs have saved New Jersey taxpayers 
$3.2 billion. The positive impact of these programs on our State's 
economy cannot be understated. Beyond the fact water infrastructure 
investments enable our communities and businesses to grow and thrive, 
our funding program itself has generated nearly 170,000 direct, one-
year construction jobs throughout New Jersey.
    The uncertainty created by intended or suspected disturbance to 
longstanding and reliable federal funding sources too cannot be 
understated. As an example, our water infrastructure funding program 
runs concurrent to our state fiscal year, which begins July 1. This 
means that right now, we are in the process of formulating our Clean 
Water SRF Intended Use Plan, which provides water utilities, 
contractors, and others in the regulated community with guidance about 
how best to sequence years-long infrastructure projects to maximize 
savings. A disruption in federal funding for Clean Water programs, even 
a temporary freeze, has cascading effects across the water sector and 
other industries, and can lead to the delay or abandonment of projects 
that are critical to economic development and to the protection of 
public health and the environment.

                               Conclusion
                               
    In administering Clean Water Act permitting and funding programs, 
my NJDEP colleagues and I are ever mindful of the balance we must 
strike. We must always be careful not to overburden business with 
regulation and process that may not be as valuable to the public. We 
must also be attentive to the reality that the environmental 
externalities we fail to avoid or correct in one sector often become a 
cost dislocated to another sector, and that taxpayers are too often the 
ones left holding the bag. For example, the externalities wrought by a 
lack of adequate pollution control on wastewater discharges must 
inevitably be addressed and can fall unfairly upon the shoulders of 
other users of a waterway--be it the taxpayer-funded drinking water 
system that must now remove those pollutants, the commercial or 
recreational fisherman foreclosed from waters that are not fishable, or 
the disruption of tourist-serving businesses that line beaches forced 
closed due to poor water quality.
    New Jersey has a long, proud, and bipartisan history of exceeding 
minimum federal standards for water quality, knowing that the quality 
of our waters bears directly upon our economic vitality. We view the 
protection and improvement of public health, safety, and the 
environment as a sound investment--because that is what our residents 
and economy demand. This Subcommittee may find that New Jersey provides 
an important case study for achieving balance among environmental 
quality and economic goals. We have assumed responsibility for critical 
sections of the Clean Water Act, enacted additional state-based water 
quality laws, and continued to grow our economy as we improve and 
protect public health and the environment. New Jersey is proof that a 
dynamic balance is possible without upending the Clean Water Act, which 
has not yet achieved its national goal of eliminating pollutant 
discharge into navigable waters and ensuring water quality that is 
fishable and swimmable. Let us not make false choices between a healthy 
environment and a healthy economy. Let us work instead to unite the 
forces of economic development and environmental improvement to promote 
the public good.

    Mr. Collins. All right. Thank you.
    The Chair now recognizes Mr. Hanners for 5 minutes to give 
his testimony.

        TESTIMONY OF NOAH HANNERS, EXECUTIVE VICE PRESI-
         DENT,  NUCOR CORPORATION,  ON BEHALF OF THE NA-
         TIONAL ASSOCIATION OF MANUFACTURERS

    Mr. Hanners. Good morning, Chairman Collins, Ranking Member 
Larsen, Vice Ranking Member Scholten, and members of the 
subcommittee. My name is Noah Hanners, and I am proud to serve 
as executive vice president at Nucor Corporation, where I 
oversee our sheet products group.
    Nucor is the largest and most diversified steel producer in 
the United States and the largest recycler of any type of 
material anywhere in North America, and we are the only 
American steel producer that makes 100 percent of its steel 
here in America.
    Specifically, our method has a fraction of the carbon 
footprint and roughly 10 percent of the particulate emissions 
compared to an average integrated steel mill.
    We use 95 percent less water than an average steel mill, 
and we capture and reprocess 86 percent of the process water we 
reuse before discharging.
    Several of our 26, and soon to be 28, steel mill facilities 
also have strategically constructed stormwater retention ponds 
to capture stormwater runoff.
    Manufacturers like Nucor create good jobs, drive 
innovation, and build our modern digital economy, all while 
making our environment cleaner.
    But right now, cumbersome and overreaching permitting 
regulations are holding back progress and hurting our Nation's 
competitiveness. And we are not alone in this view.
    In a recent survey of manufacturers, 72 percent said that 
the length and complexity of the permitting process affects 
their investment decisions.
    If we want to grow America's economy, we need to fix this 
broken system.
    Nucor can speak firsthand to the difficulties of navigating 
the Federal permitting process. In 2022, we announced the 
selection of Apple Grove, West Virginia, as the location for a 
new state-of-the-art sheet mill. At $3.5 billion, it is the 
largest manufacturing investment in the State's history.
    Nucor sheet mills create an average of 800 full-time, high-
paying manufacturing jobs, and we are proud to have already 
hired 300 West Virginia teammates. In addition, we anticipate 
approximately 2,000 contracting teammates at peak construction.
    The strategic location of the mill on the Ohio River 
required us to seek Federal authorization under section 404 of 
the Clean Water Act.
    As a responsible industry partner, we worked diligently 
with State and Federal agencies to gain the necessary approvals 
and begin turning dirt.
    The permitting process was onerous. It required us to work 
with multiple Federal agencies with little direction and 
unclear timelines. This led to moving targets for our planning 
and execution, delaying the project and increasing costs.
    America can do better to help manufacturers create good 
jobs in our communities while continuing to protect our 
environment.
    Manufacturers have long advocated for commonsense 
permitting reforms. The National Association of Manufacturers 
supported bipartisan efforts, during the previous Congress, to 
update the NEPA process and speed up construction of energy 
projects.
    Working together, policymakers can continue progress to 
achieve lasting, comprehensive permitting reform and make 
positive changes to our Nation's environmental laws.
    This is critical as manufacturers contend with standards 
that are unreasonable and unworkable, such as those for PFAS 
and particulate matter.
    Serious reforms should include manufacturers' priorities to 
provide certainty, streamline the permitting process, and give 
the regulated community a seat at the table.
    This may be accomplished through changes to environmental 
laws, like the Clean Water Act, that expedite judicial review, 
create enforceable deadlines, and increase the use of 
categorical exclusions.
    Last Congress, this committee took important steps toward 
reforming the Clean Water Act by advancing the Creating 
Confidence in Clean Water Permitting Act.
    As you continue this work in the current Congress, we ask 
you to consider several areas for Clean Water Act reform: 
clarifying timelines for agency action and decisions during the 
permitting process; establishing clear, commonsense definitions 
regarding the scope of project areas subject to permitting and 
consultation requirements; provide certainty that permitting 
decisions are determinative and help prevent never-ending 
litigation; promote the use of general permits and speed up 
projects with limited impact on the environment; ensure the use 
of best available science when setting guidelines and rules; 
encourage State assumption of permitting responsibilities; and 
focus State authority under the Clean Water Act on water 
quality.
    Nucor and America's manufacturers are the most advanced and 
sustainable in the world. Comprehensive permitting reform that 
increases certainty and removes unnecessary bureaucratic 
hurdles will enhance American economic competitiveness and 
protect our environment.
    I encourage you to seize this opportunity, because when 
manufacturing wins, America wins. Thank you, and I look forward 
to your questions.
    [Mr. Hanners' prepared statement follows:]

                                 
                                 
  Prepared Statement of Noah Hanners, Executive Vice President, Nucor 
  Corporation, on behalf of the National Association of Manufacturers
  
    Chairman Collins, Ranking Member Wilson, and members of the 
Subcommittee, my name is Noah Hanners, and I am proud to serve as 
Executive Vice President at Nucor Corporation where I oversee our sheet 
products group, which is comprised of six steel mills that make flat-
rolled steel products for automotive, appliance, construction, pipe and 
tube and many other industrial and consumer applications.
    Nucor is the largest and most diversified steel producer in the 
United States and the largest recycler of any type of material anywhere 
in North America. And, among America's three largest steel producers, 
we are the only one that still makes 100 percent of its steel here in 
America. Each year, our company recycles more than 20 million tons of 
ferrous scrap to produce more than a quarter of all the raw steel made 
in the U.S. This steelmaking method makes us one of the cleanest and 
most sustainable producers in the world. Specifically, our method has a 
fraction of the carbon footprint and roughly 10 percent of the 
particulate emissions compared to an average integrated steel mill. In 
addition, we use 95 percent less water than an average steel mill, and 
we capture and reprocess 86 percent of our process water for reuse 
before discharging. Several of our 26--soon to be 28--steel mill 
facilities also have strategically constructed stormwater retention 
ponds to capture stormwater runoff. Nucor is not only one of the 
cleanest and most efficient steelmakers in the world, but we are also 
one of the safest, with a steelmaking injury and illness rate that has 
consistently been at least 30 percent below the industry average year 
after year.
    Manufacturers like Nucor create well-paying jobs, drive innovation 
and build our modern digital economy--all while developing and 
deploying technologies that make our environment cleaner. When 
manufacturing wins, America wins. But right now, cumbersome and 
overreaching permitting laws and regulations are holding back progress, 
delaying investments and making it harder to compete globally. 
Permitting delays, red tape and complicated bureaucracy make it 
difficult to complete projects that benefit communities across the 
country, especially for capital intensive industrial manufacturers like 
ours. It is no surprise that in a 2024 survey of manufacturers, 72 
percent of respondents said that the length and complexity of the 
permitting process affected their investment decisions.\1\ That's the 
real problem. If we want to grow America's economy, we need to fix this 
broken system.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \1\ National Association of Manufacturers, NAM Manufacturers' 
Outlook Survey, First Quarter 2024 (March 5, 2024), available at 
https://nam.org/2024-first-quarter-manufacturers-outlook-survey/.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Nucor can attest first-hand to the difficulties of navigating 
federal permit processes. In 2022--we announced the selection of Apple 
Grove--West Virginia--as the location for a new state-of-the-art sheet 
steel mill. At $3.5 billion--it is the largest manufacturing investment 
in the state's history. Nucor's sheet mills create an average of 800 
full-time, high-paying manufacturing jobs, and we are proud to have 
already hired 300 West Virginia teammates. In addition, we anticipate 
approximately 2,000 contracting teammates at peak construction.
    Our new steel mill is strategically situated on the Ohio River, 
which will provide logistical and transportation advantages and will 
better enable us to supply automotive, construction and industrial 
customers in the Midwest and Northeast regions, areas which consume 
half of the sheet steel in the U.S. Locating along a major navigable 
water of the U.S. precipitated the need for federal authorization under 
Section 404 of the Clean Water Act. While we worked diligently with our 
state and federal partners to secure the necessary permits to construct 
the facility's barge loading and unloading dock, the process became 
hindered by numerous requests from multiple parties for more 
information, additional studies or investigations and reformatting of 
previously submitted documents. These frustrating delays stemmed 
largely from consultation requirements under Section 7 of the 
Endangered Species Act and Section 106 of the National Historic 
Preservation Act, which are characterized by overly vague and 
subjective timelines and lack of agency coordination and guidance. 
Based on Nucor's nearly six decades of experience building industrial 
facilities across the country, these tasks were far beyond the original 
scope of work and unnecessarily delayed the final permit decision--and 
thus the project--by several months. And delays in today's economic 
environment cost money. What was first announced as a $2.7 billion 
project is now a $3.5 billion project. We are excited for our future 
and to bring this transformative project to the state of West Virginia, 
but without the hard work and persistence from our federal, state and 
local representatives, this project may have never broken ground.
    Manufacturers have been building a case for commonsense reforms to 
our nation's permitting laws for years. I'll say it again: we need 
commonsense permitting reforms. The National Association of 
Manufacturers supported bipartisan efforts during the previous Congress 
to update processes under the National Environmental Policy Act and 
speed up construction of critical energy projects. For example, 
manufacturers supported the permitting reforms made in the Fiscal 
Responsibility Act of 2023. The correct implementation of this statute 
is both important to the industry as well as germane to any 
conversation about CWA reforms, particularly regarding agencies 
evaluating ``reasonably foreseeable'' impacts and alternatives in the 
permitting process.
    And while today's focus is on CWA reform, this is only the 
beginning. Working together, policymakers have a real opportunity to 
achieve lasting, comprehensive permitting reform and effect positive 
changes to our nation's environmental standards that support economic 
growth while protecting our communities. For example, while 
manufacturers support efforts to remove per- and polyfluoroalkyl 
substances (PFAS) and other potentially harmful chemicals from our 
water systems, overly-severe standards proposed by the Environmental 
Protection Agency make compliance impossible and directly threaten our 
ability to invest, innovate and create jobs in America. And while our 
air quality standards for particulate matter (PM2.5) are necessary for 
public health, the unreasonably tightened limits for emissions of fine 
particles or soot which took effect last year are placing an 
unnecessary regulatory burden on our manufacturers and making 
permitting harder--hindering onshoring and raising global emissions.
    Our U.S. manufacturing sector is cleaner than at any other time in 
history and cleaner than foreign competitors. That is why we strongly 
believe that comprehensive permitting reform is critical, and such 
reform must include American manufacturers' priorities that provide 
regulatory certainty, streamline the permitting process and give the 
regulated community opportunity for input when establishing the rules 
under which they will operate. Policymakers may accomplish these goals 
through changes to underlying statutes that expedite judicial review, 
create enforceable deadlines for agencies and increase the use of 
categorical exclusions.

                 Clean Water Act Reform Recommendations
                 
    As Nucor's experience with our West Virginia site illustrates, the 
CWA is a statute wherein thoughtful changes would benefit and advance 
economic development projects across the nation. Last Congress, this 
committee took steps toward reforming the CWA by reporting out and 
securing passage by the House of Representatives of the Creating 
Confidence in Clean Water Permitting Act. Among other changes, the 
legislation would have instituted reforms to permitting programs under 
Section 402 and Section 404 of the CWA to support the use of general 
permits under the programs, as well as to set guidelines on judicial 
review and enhance the National Pollutant Discharge Elimination System 
(Section 402) permit shield.
    Manufacturers commend the committee for its attention to CWA reform 
and the advancement of critical infrastructure and economic development 
projects. As the committee pursues this important work in the 119th 
Congress, we respectfully request that members consider several areas 
for improvement.

I. Timelines
    Clarified timelines for agency action and decisions for a Section 
404 permit will assist applicants with project planning and execution. 
Currently, those seeking an individual permit are often caught in a 
winding process with multiple decision-makers and nebulous timelines. 
For example, the Army Corps of Engineers district office will delay 
action for the entire permit area while awaiting approval from the U.S. 
Fish and Wildlife Service for a specific portion of the project.

II. Scope
    Similar to establishing timelines for agency decisions, clear and 
understood definitions as to the scope of project areas subject to 
Section 404 permitting requirements will help applicants with planning 
and execution. Over the past decade and more, manufacturers and others 
in the regulated community have been caught in a regulatory morass 
because of a prolonged disagreement over the definition of waters of 
the U.S. This has resulted in delays and confusion in the 
jurisdictional determination process by USACE. Furthermore, USACE 
recently proposed to update its regulations for implementing Section 
106 of the NHPA, potentially expanding the scope of areas of a project 
where agencies will need to consult on effects on historic properties, 
elongating delays.

III. Permit certainty
    Once a permit is granted or a particular activity is verified as 
authorized under a general permit, the permittee should have a high 
degree of certainty that the agency's action is determinative. Limiting 
the timeline for judicial review and supporting the permit as shield 
will cut down on unnecessary litigation that delays projects and adds 
costs. Reasonable restrictions to the EPA's authority under Section 
404(c) of the CWA to prohibit areas as disposal sites--limiting 
retroactive vetoes of permits--will likewise increase confidence in the 
permitting process.

IV. General permits
    The use of general permits should be promoted to the maximum extent 
practicable for those projects with limited impact on the environment. 
This may be accomplished through several means, such as extending the 
time between reissuance and limiting politically-charged reviews, as 
well as defining the scope of environmental effects during issuance or 
reissuance.

V. State assumption
    State assumption of Section 404 permitting responsibilities should 
likewise be encouraged. States know best about their water resources 
and are better able to be responsive to applicants throughout the 
permitting process. Unfortunately, progress in this area has been 
hampered by subsequent litigation following approval of state 
assumption, with the State of Florida as a recent example.

VI. Water quality certification
    Promoting federalism in the administration of the CWA should not be 
permission for states to go outside the bounds of statutory authority, 
however. It is important to focus state responsibility pursuant to 
Section 401 of the CWA on project impacts to water quality 
specifically. Unfortunately, some states have recently used this 
authority to block important interstate projects critical for 
dependable energy use.

                                 * * *

    Nucor and America's manufacturing sector are the most advanced and 
sustainable manufacturers in the world. We are proof that we can both 
protect the environment, while also creating well-paying jobs and 
strengthening our local communities. Comprehensive permitting reform 
that increases certainty for the regulated community while removing 
unnecessary bureaucratic hurdles will both enhance America's economic 
competitiveness and protect our environment. When manufacturing wins, 
America wins.
    Thank you for inviting me to testify today and share our story. I 
look forward to your questions.

    Mr. Collins. Thank you.
    Next, Mr. Hasten, you are recognized for 5 minutes for your 
testimony.

       TESTIMONY OF  BUDDY HASTEN,  PRESIDENT AND CHIEF EX-
        ECUTIVE OFFICER,  ELECTRIC  COOPERATIVES OF  ARKAN-
        SAS, ON BEHALF OF THE NATIONAL RURAL ELECTRIC COOP-
        ERATIVE ASSOCIATION

    Mr. Hasten. Good morning, Chairman Collins, Vice Ranking 
Member Scholten, and members of the subcommittee. Thank you for 
the opportunity to testify before you today.
    My name is Buddy Hasten, and I serve as president and CEO 
of the Arkansas Electric Cooperative Corporation, AECC, and 
Arkansas Electric Cooperatives, Incorporated, AECI.
    It is an honor to be before you today to talk about how we 
can better serve our members and your constituents.
    AECC is a generation and transmission cooperative based in 
Little Rock, Arkansas, that proudly provides power for 
approximately 1.2 million members of Arkansas' 17 electric 
distribution co-ops.
    AECI is the Arkansas statewide trade association which 
provides education, public relations, Government relations, and 
other support to the electric distribution co-ops in Arkansas.
    Reliable and affordable electricity is essential to 
America's economic growth, and as our Nation increasingly 
relies on electricity to power our economy, keeping the lights 
on has never been more important or more challenging.
    For example, Arkansas is losing 3,800 megawatts of baseload 
power in the near future, while simultaneously facing a 
tremendous increase in electricity demand from data centers and 
manufacturing facilities.
    Reasonable and efficient environmental regulations, 
including permitting programs under the Clean Water Act, are 
often the critical link in being able to successfully complete 
a project on time to meet the growing generation demands of an 
electric co-op.
    It takes several years to plan a transmission route or pick 
a viable property site to build a new powerplant. It is 
essential that Federal permitting programs, including those 
under the Clean Water Act, are implemented as intended by 
Congress and do not unnecessarily delay or hinder critical 
infrastructure projects that deliver electricity to homes, 
businesses, and farms across the country.
    Because electric co-ops are owned and governed by the 
consumer members that we serve, we are committed to protecting 
and maintaining clean water within our communities.
    However, having clean water is not, and should not be, 
mutually exclusive with having permitting programs that are 
reasonable, efficient, and meet the needs of our growing and 
ever-changing economy. We can and we should do both.
    Electric co-ops rely on clean water permits to build new 
generation facilities, build transmission and distribution 
lines in a timely manner, perform routine maintenance and 
repair work, restore service after hurricanes or other natural 
disasters, and to undergo vegetation management practices along 
electric utility rights-of-way to prevent damage and wildfires.
    All of these actions are a huge part of our work in 
providing reliable and affordable electricity to our consumer 
members.
    To provide just one example, a few years ago, my co-op 
applied for an approved jurisdictional determination within the 
U.S. Army Corps of Engineers to determine whether a Clean Water 
Act permit was needed for a new electrical transmission-
switching station--a very important new piece of infrastructure 
for us.
    In the meantime, just to be safe and to try to expedite the 
process, we went ahead and applied for a Clean Water Act 
permit. We did not receive a permit decision within the 9-month 
timeframe initially predicted by the Corps, resulting in a 
delayed start for our project.
    Then over a year after our original Clean Water Act permit 
application, the Corps informed us that a Clean Water Act 
permit would not be needed for the project.
    Ultimately, AECC was subjected to the Corps' application 
requirements, construction delays and increased costs, and the 
associated risks of a Clean Water Act permit denial, for the 
Corps to determine that no Clean Water Act permit would be 
needed for the project--a decision that could have easily been 
determined as early as AECC's first meeting with the Corps 1 
year earlier.
    This is a pivotal time for my co-op. As we plan to meet the 
quickly growing demands of our members, a more predictable and 
efficient process for securing those permits for our electric 
infrastructure would help us better meet those challenges.
    Thank you again for the opportunity to testify on this 
important issue. I look forward to responding to any questions. 
Thank you.
    [Mr. Hasten's prepared statement follows:]

                                 
                                 
Prepared Statement of Buddy Hasten,  President and  Chief Executive Offi-
  cer, Electric Cooperatives of Arkansas, on behalf of the National Rural
  Electric Cooperative Association
  
                              Introduction

    Chairman Collins, Ranking Member Wilson, and Members of the Water 
Resources and Environment Subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity 
to testify before you today. My name is Buddy Hasten, and I serve as 
President and CEO of Arkansas Electric Cooperative Corporation (AECC) 
and Arkansas Electric Cooperatives, Inc. (AECI), which along with 
Arkansas' 17 electric cooperatives are collectively known as the 
Electric Cooperatives of Arkansas. I am testifying today to provide my 
own insights as a co-op leader but also representing the National Rural 
Electric Cooperative Association (NRECA) and the nearly 900 electric 
cooperatives across the country it represents.
    AECC is a generation and transmission (G&T) cooperative based in 
Little Rock, Arkansas that was established in 1949. AECC proudly 
provides power for approximately 1.2 million members of Arkansas' 17 
electric distribution cooperatives. Specifically, AECC generates, 
sells, and delivers reliable and affordable wholesale electric energy, 
along with related services to Arkansas' electric distribution co-ops. 
AECI, formed in 1942, is the Arkansas statewide trade association, 
which provides education, public relations, government relations, and 
other support to the electric distribution co-ops in Arkansas. AECI 
also sells electric utility materials and equipment and provides 
related services to and for electric utilities across the United 
States.
    NRECA is the national trade association representing nearly 900 
rural electric cooperatives across the country including 64 G&T 
cooperatives and 832 distribution cooperatives. America's electric co-
ops comprise a unique sector of the electric industry. These not-for-
profit entities are independently owned and governed by the people they 
serve. From growing exurban regions to remote farming communities, 
electric co-ops provide power to 42 million Americans across 48 states. 
They keep the lights on across 56% of the American landscape--areas 
that are primarily residential and sparsely populated. Those 
characteristics make it comparatively more expensive for electric co-
ops to operate than the rest of the electric sector, which tends to 
serve more compact, industrialized, and densely populated areas. This 
means that co-ops are constantly asked to do more with less, and they 
deliver.
    Reliable and affordable electricity is essential to America's 
economic growth. And as our nation increasingly relies on electricity 
to power our economy, keeping the lights on has never been more 
important--or more challenging. For example, Arkansas is losing 
approximately 3,800 megawatts of baseload power in the near future 
while simultaneously facing a tremendous increase in electricity demand 
from data centers and manufacturing facilities.
    Reasonable and efficient environmental regulations, including 
permitting programs under the Clean Water Act (CWA), are often the 
critical link in being able to successfully complete a project on time 
in order to meet the growing generation demands on AECC. It takes 
several years to plan a transmission route or pick a viable property 
site to build a new power plant. It is essential that federal 
permitting programs--including those under the CWA--are implemented as 
intended by Congress and do not unnecessarily delay or hinder critical 
infrastructure projects essential to delivering electricity to homes, 
businesses, and farms across the country.
    Because electric co-ops are owned and governed by the consumer-
members that we serve, we are committed to protecting and maintaining 
clean water within our communities. However, having clean water is not 
and should not be mutually exclusive with having CWA permitting 
programs that are reasonable, efficient, and meet the needs of our 
growing and ever-changing economy. Congress can and should address the 
difficulties that the regulated community is facing with permitting 
under the CWA.

                          Section 404 Permits

Nationwide Permits
    While providing electricity over long distances, power lines must 
occasionally cross wetlands and other ``waters of the U.S.'' (WOTUS), 
requiring authorization under CWA Section 404. Nationwide Permits 
(NWPs) are developed and issued by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers 
(Corps) and authorize activities that have minimal individual and 
cumulative adverse effects on the aquatic environment. Electric co-ops 
depend on CWA Section 404 permits, and on NWPs in particular, to build 
transmission and distribution lines in a timely manner; perform routine 
maintenance or repair work on those lines; restore service after 
hurricanes or other natural disasters; and to undergo certain 
vegetation management practices along electric utility rights of way to 
prevent damage and wildfires.
    The availability of NWPs is critically important to electric co-ops 
as an environmentally protective means to streamline work on critical 
infrastructure while controlling unnecessary costs. Without NWPs, 
electric co-ops would be required to coordinate every planned utility 
line project with the Corps to find alternative CWA authorizations such 
as individual Section 404 permits. This could result in years of 
additional delays and substantial additional costs. For example, the 
Corps reported that in fiscal year 2018, the average time to process a 
standard individual permit application under Section 404 was 264 days, 
while the average time to process a NWP authorization was 45 days. 
Increased costs that result from delays are passed directly on to co-op 
consumer-members.
    Because NWPs are issued by the Corps for a period of no more than 
five years, fifty-seven NWPs are set to expire in March of 2026. It is 
essential that the Corps prioritizes reauthorizing the expiring NWPs. 
This requires time-consuming steps like complying with CWA section 401 
requirements and working with Corps districts to add regional 
conditions which are critical for complying with statutes like the 
Endangered Species Act (ESA). We look forward to working with the 
Committee and the new administration to ensure that such permits are 
reauthorized expeditiously so that electric co-ops can continue to 
provide reliable and affordable electricity to our consumer-members 
without undue costs and delays.
    Electric co-ops also support needed efforts to streamline the NWP 
program. For example, in 2023, AECC was required to perform repairs on 
one of its hydropower plants, which had been previously permitted under 
a Section 404 permit when the plant was built. Due to the nature of 
hydropower plants, repairs must be performed quickly when low river 
water levels in the Arkansas River allow. AECC met with the Little Rock 
District of the Corps and determined that a NWP 3 was needed. NWP 3s 
are for ``maintenance'' repairs and are designed to speed up the CWA 
permitting process for projects with minimal environmental impacts. 
Nevertheless, the permitting and review process to receive temporary 
construction authorization under NWP 3 took nine months. During that 
time, the river water levels rose to historically high levels, causing 
the repair window to close and exposing AECC's hydropower plant to 
increased risks of damage. Furthermore, because the temporary 
construction authorization that AECC received in compliance with the 
CWA is valid for only five years, AECC has no guarantee that it will be 
able to utilize the approval, should river conditions not be 
satisfactory for repair work within the remaining short timeframe.
    Additionally, many electric co-ops apply for Rural Utilities 
Service (RUS) loans under the U.S. Department of Agriculture to support 
critical generation and transmission projects. Electric co-ops are 
required to comply with National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA) 
reviews when RUS funded projects require wetland delineations, 
endangered species reviews, and other possible project surveys. If a 
RUS-funded project requires a Section 404 permit, the Corps will 
require the submission and processing of much of the same information 
required by and submitted to RUS. This process creates additional 
barriers without assurance that the federal agencies will align. 
Improvements to communication and collaboration between federal 
agencies would better streamline this process.
    NRECA supports provisions in last Congress's House-passed H.R. 
7023, Creating Confidence in Clean Water Permitting Act, that would 
provide additional certainty regarding required ESA and NEPA reviews 
for Section 404 permits, prevent the EPA from vetoing a Section 404 
permit before a permit application has been filed or after a permit has 
already been issued by the Corps, set reasonable judicial review 
timelines for Section 404 permits, and other provisions that would 
ensure the continued use of NWPs for linear projects like transmission 
lines. We look forward to working with the Committee to advance similar 
and additional policies to streamline the NWP permitting process.

Approved Jurisdictional Determinations
    Obtaining Approved Jurisdictional Determinations (AJDs) is an 
essential step in the CWA 404 permitting process. The AJD process is 
used by the Corps to determine whether aquatic resources in a given 
area are jurisdictional under the CWA and therefore must require CWA 
permits. NRECA is aware of some instances in which AJD applicants have 
had to wait over 18 months just for a decision from the Corps, which 
only then determines whether the waterbody in question is 
jurisdictional and whether the applicant must undergo the CWA 404 
permitting process which can take another couple years. Such delays 
impede the ability of electric co-ops to begin critical infrastructure 
projects and make investment decisions needed to meet rising 
electricity demands.
    For example, AECC met with the Little Rock District of the Corps to 
discuss whether a CWA permit would be needed for a new electrical 
transmission switching station AECC planned to build. Based on the 
initial meeting, AECC was not told one way or another whether we should 
submit a formal permit application but gathered that a CWA permit would 
be needed. To be good actors and act in good faith, AECC submitted a 
formal AJD request. Based on information provided by the Corps, AECC 
expected that the Corps would issue a permit decision in approximately 
nine months from the application date. AECC did not end up receiving a 
permit decision within the nine-month timeframe initially predicted by 
the Corps, resulting in a delayed start date for AECC's project. Then, 
over one year after AECC's original CWA permit application, the Corps 
informed AECC that a CWA permit was not needed for the project.
    Ultimately, AECC was subjected to Corp's application requirements, 
construction delays and increased costs, and the associated risks of a 
CWA permit denial, for the Corps to determine that no CWA permit would 
be needed for the project--a decision that could have easily been 
determined as early as AECC's first meeting with the Corps over one 
year earlier. To be clear, AECC had to wait for over a year just to be 
told that we could have proceeded with the project from the beginning 
without any CWA permit.
    To prevent similar delays in the CWA permitting process, electric 
co-ops are eager to work with this Committee and the new administration 
to ensure that the Corps immediately prioritizes responding to AJD 
requests.

                          Section 402 Permits

    Electric co-ops build and maintain power plants, substations, and 
other infrastructure to meet increasing electricity demands and provide 
reliable and affordable electricity to their consumer-members. These 
facilities usually need to obtain a National Pollutant Discharge 
Elimination System (NPDES) permit under section 402 of the CWA. NPDES 
permits regulate discharges of pollutants through a point source into 
WOTUS and reflect both technology-based controls--known as Effluent 
Limitation Guidelines--and Water Quality Standards determined by the 
U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) through notice-and-comment 
rulemakings. However, EPA also issues guidance documents--known as 
water quality criteria--that do not always solicit or receive public 
input that can have a significant influence on the requirements 
incorporated into NPDES permits.
    Except in a small number of instances, NPDES permits are issued by 
states which have delegated authority from EPA to perform relevant 
administrative, permitting, and enforcement aspects of the program. 
State governments must meet rigorous requirements to be authorized to 
run permitting programs and must follow EPA regulations when issuing 
individual permits. The Electric Cooperatives of Arkansas are fortunate 
to have a positive relationship with the State of Arkansas when it 
comes to state-administered CWA permits.
    Last Congress' H.R. 7023 would improve the NPDES permitting 
process. Specifically, the bill would require EPA to seek public 
comment on new or revised water quality criteria. This policy would 
increase stakeholder engagement and overall transparency in the CWA 
permitting process. It would also help ensure EPA policy can be 
informed by actual on-the-ground experiences and help ensure that 
unnecessarily burdensome water quality criteria do not impact a co-op's 
ability to comply with NPDES permits. Furthermore, H.R. 7023 would 
provide additional regulatory certainty by clarifying that holders of 
NPDES permits are only responsible under their permits for discharges 
of pollutants that are specifically identified by the federal or state 
agency during the permitting process.

                      Waters of the United States

    Under the CWA, the EPA and the Corps have jurisdiction to regulate 
``navigable'' waters, which are defined in the law as ``the waters of 
the United States,'' or WOTUS. The statute does not specifically define 
WOTUS but instead grants EPA and the Corps the responsibility to 
develop a definition through rulemaking. The definition of WOTUS under 
the CWA is significant because it determines which bodies of water are 
protected under the CWA, and therefore, whether certain activities that 
co-ops engage in that impact waterways will require a CWA permit. 
Broader CWA jurisdiction would increase costs associated with co-op 
activities in marginal areas, including construction and maintenance of 
transmission and distribution corridors, stormwater control, and plant 
construction, operation, maintenance, and decommissioning.
    In Sackett v. EPA, decided in May 2023, the U.S. Supreme Court 
provided regulated entities much needed clarity by narrowing the EPA 
and Corp's overly broad interpretation of WOTUS under the CWA. 
Unfortunately, the Biden Administration EPA and Corps did not 
faithfully comply with or implement the Sackett decision in issuing a 
revised WOTUS regulation or determining which waterbodies require a CWA 
permit. For example, they have issued ``Field Memos''--essentially, 
guidance documents to Corps staff in the field on how to interpret the 
WOTUS regulation--with overly broad interpretations of key terms which 
do not accurately reflect Sackett. This refusal to comply with the 
Supreme Court's decision has created uncertainty, litigation, and 
delays which are directly hurting co-ops and other businesses.
    Now is the time to correct the failure of the previous 
Administration and provide the regulatory clarity that electric co-ops 
and other businesses need.

                               Conclusion
                               
    As the electricity demands of our nation continue to grow, electric 
co-ops are committed to meeting increasing demand while continuing to 
provide reliable and affordable electricity to their consumer-members 
and promoting clean water within the communities they serve.
    Permitting programs under the CWA directly impact electric co-op's 
ability to invest in and build critical infrastructure needed to meet 
growing demand. Electric co-ops support efforts to streamline CWA 
permitting programs and look forward to working with members of the 
Committee to advance policies that will result in a more reasonable and 
efficient CWA permitting process.
    I thank the Subcommittee for its important work on this issue and 
look forward to answering your questions.

    Mr. Collins. We are going to move on to Member questions 
now, and the Chair now recognizes Mr. Crawford for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Crawford. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, I appreciate that.
    Mr. Hasten, wonderful to see you, a fellow Arkansan here 
today. I appreciate you being here.
    The Arkansas Electric Cooperative powers a huge part of my 
district, as you know. Of the 17 co-ops in Arkansas, I think 
that 10 of them are responsible in some capacity throughout my 
district for delivering power to constituents that I represent.
    So, it is incredibly important for my constituents to know 
that their Federal Government is working with their member-
owned electricity provider.
    In your testimony, you mentioned that projects funded 
through USDA's Rural Utilities Service loan program, to go 
through the NEPA process. Should the project also require a 
Corps of Engineers' section 404 permit as well, the Corps 
requires duplicative paperwork and studies to be done. A NEPA 
and a 404 environmental review for the same project seems to me 
the height of bureaucratic waste.
    In your experience in Arkansas, can you estimate how much 
time, money, staff hours, et cetera, lost productivity, could 
have been avoided, or saved, had the Corps and USDA worked 
together on this instead of working separately?
    Mr. Hasten. Well, Congressman Crawford, welcome from 
Arkansas. Yes, what we see is different agencies interpret NEPA 
differently. So I think that, to us, is a challenge.
    When you have got RUS on one side, Army Corps of Engineers, 
Department of Energy, Fish and Wildlife, each have the purview 
to interpret NEPA how they want, and then so that gives us 
uncertainty as to what exactly we are going to be exposed to.
    When you get down into section 404--and maybe an example 
would be, we know a project is going to need a section 404 
Clean Water Act permit. We are going to intend to fund it with 
RUS, and so we work a lot with RUS so we know those 
requirements.
    And those may trigger the right reviews with their 
interpretation of NEPA, and so we would go do a cultural survey 
or endangered species review or a wetlands review. And we 
complete all those, and they go through a process.
    For instance, with a cultural survey review, we would turn 
that in to the State Historical Preservation Office, the SHPO. 
That goes through a process, let's say, 60 days.
    They would then share that with the Tribes, and so they--I 
think they have got maybe 60 days to respond. As you can see, 
you have got months that build up. You are going through a 
proper process.
    Well, once we then get where we need to and we turn that in 
to the Corps, they will turn right around and take that same 
exact application and run it through the exact same process. So 
we got to go back to the SHPO, got to go back to the Tribes, 
and so you can just see it is a redundancy that is built in.
    Mr. Crawford. Right.
    Mr. Hasten. So right there you can say, well, that added 2 
to 4 months----
    Mr. Crawford [interposing]. Sure.
    Mr. Hasten [continuing]. Just right there.
    Mr. Crawford. So, we have addressed this to some extent. We 
codified some aspects through the One Federal Decision, fees in 
the Fiscal Responsibility Act, but was it enough? Do we need to 
do more?
    Mr. Hasten. I think the more that can be done, in any 
business, to streamline and make processes efficient so there 
is not wasted time, I would say yes.
    Mr. Crawford. Okay. I appreciate that.
    Mr. Hanners, I am going to shift gears real quick. I am 
glad to see that you are here today. Nucor is a big presence in 
my district. Arkansans know firsthand your company's commitment 
to environmental responsibility and how you can co-exist with 
economic productivity.
    In fact, your entire business model is based on 
sustainability. I want you to talk about that a little bit, 
some of the ways American steel manufacturing can be advanced 
through commonsense environmental reforms and what effects that 
would have on economic developments in communities like mine?
    Mr. Hanners. Thank you for the question, Mr. Crawford, and 
your support, and, yes, thank you for giving me the opportunity 
to talk about sustainability in Nucor.
    So if you look at our process, we are the cleanest 
steelmakers in the world, and we are continually striving to 
innovate while benefiting society both economically but then 
also achieving higher and higher levels of sustainability 
performance.
    So I come here with a lot of pride in the way our team 
thinks about caring for the environment. At the same time, 
building a project like our West Virginia mill that will employ 
hundreds of Americans, but also thousands of contractors who 
come on site and then untold numbers of people who are impacted 
by that project in the region.
    So if you think about our West Virginia mill, we are 
building a mill that will be the cleanest steel production in 
the United States, and it will employ hundreds, and by second 
and third order, impact thousands of Americans in that West 
Virginia region.
    So we are very proud of that legacy.
    Mr. Crawford. I appreciate you. Thanks for being here.
    I yield back.
    Mr. Collins. Thank you.
    The Chair now recognizes Ms. Scholten for 5 minutes.
    Ms. Scholten. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to all 
of our incredible witnesses for taking your time to be here 
today.
    As I stated in my opening remarks, water issues are not, 
and should not be, a partisan issue. I hope I am not alone in 
saying that I am deeply concerned with the President's efforts 
to freeze critical Federal funds, including dollars necessary 
to support our Federal water infrastructure.
    We all can agree that regulatory reform is needed, clarity 
is needed, but what has happened in the last 10, 20 days has 
been the opposite of clarity. It has increased chaos and 
confusion.
    This uncertainty could stifle all of the progress that this 
committee, and Congress as a whole, has made through historic 
legislation like the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law.
    Stoking this kind of chaos will result in very tangible 
threats to every single community that is represented here at 
the dais.
    Commissioner LaTourette, can you speak a little bit to how 
some of the directly blocked funds, as well as the uncertainty 
in Federal funding, is not only going to harm water 
infrastructure projects, but also prevent local and State 
governments from looking ahead to fulfill their communities' 
water needs?
    Mr. LaTourette. I appreciate this question. My pause is 
because I am thinking. I am thinking hard about it. I mentioned 
in my testimony that we have a $1.2 trillion need nationally 
over the next 20 years for drinking water infrastructure; $31.6 
billion of that is in New Jersey alone.
    And we rely, the States, which are the ones that implement 
the investments in our infrastructure. State governments do 
that, not the Federal Government.
    And what we see in New Jersey is an opportunity, using 
those Federal funds, we couple them with State funds, and then 
we use the governmental funds together to then leverage private 
market funds, so that we are able to create a capital stack for 
investment in water infrastructure that needs to be planned out 
over the course of many years.
    And so we have projects that are in the queue right now 
that are phased, meaning that one fiscal year, you might do a 
pump station, and the next year, a main, right? And so when 
there is a disruption in Federal funding, or even just the 
uncertainty that is created by a suspected disruption, and even 
a temporary one, it reverberates throughout the system.
    What I mean by that is right now, our State is in the 
process of formulating our clean water intended use plan for 
the next fiscal year, which for us starts July 1, and that 
provides water utilities, contractors, and others with guidance 
about how they should be sequencing their projects, such that a 
disruption in the Federal funding source, upon which all of 
that investment is built, has a cascading effect that can lead 
to the delay certainly, but potentially even the abandonment of 
a project, right?
    And here we are talking about water that every business, 
every person needs.
    Ms. Scholten. Certainly critical in Michigan's Third 
Congressional District. I firmly believe that the U.S. can have 
both a healthy economy and a healthy environment.
    In fact, through the Great Lakes region, I would argue that 
these two outcomes are wholly interconnected, as I discussed in 
my opening remarks.
    Commissioner LaTourette, again, I know New Jersey is a 
little different from west Michigan's shoreline, but can you 
speak to how water pollution can negatively impact communities' 
economies with potential harm to the tourism industry, property 
values, and commercial operations?
    Mr. LaTourette. Appreciate that question as well, 
Congresswoman.
    So, tourism in particular is a huge driver of New Jersey's 
economy, right? Our pristine beaches, our quaint shore towns 
bring in $50 billion a year in tourism spending.
    And all of that spending, all of that tourism, is dependent 
upon one thing: clean waterways.
    I grew up in the 1980s at a time when our parents didn't 
let us go to the beach in New Jersey because of high levels of 
pollution. And today the Jersey Shore has the best water 
quality that we have ever seen, and that is a function of 
implementation of the Clean Water Act as a matter of permitting 
enforcement, but also because of that investment paradigm, 
which, since the beginning of our clean water investment 
strategy, has created 170,000 one-year direct construction 
jobs, right?
    And so, not only is the Clean Water Act a necessity in 
terms of the health of our waterways, the health of our people, 
but it promotes the very businesses that dot our shoreline.
    So, imagine those businesses that dot the shoreline, that 
rely on the influx of tourism dollars, imagine their struggles 
when they have to close a beach because of bad water quality, 
and nobody visits, and nobody spends.
    Ms. Scholten. Thank you. I yield back.
    Mr. Collins. The Chair now recognizes Mr. Fong for 5 
minutes.
    Mr. Fong. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for calling this 
hearing, and thank you for the witnesses for their input.
    Mr. Singletary, I wanted to ask you a few questions. I am 
glad that you highlighted the need to clarify the section 401 
certification process. I wanted to get your input in regards to 
this specific area.
    In California, it feels like we are constantly having to 
fight against our State Water Resources Control Board, which 
has used its authority provided under the Clean Water Act, 
along with other State and Federal environmental laws, to delay 
efforts to develop new water projects and actually undermine 
our ability to utilize the infrastructure we have.
    The result is less water delivered to our farms and 
communities in my district, less clean and renewable hydropower 
generated for our grid, and less water security for everyone 
who lives in our State.
    There are numerous examples of less water security, and 
there are examples of the State Water Board issuing draft Clean 
Water Act 401 certifications aimed at implementing a plan that 
calls for the flushing of billions of gallons of water out into 
the Pacific, rather than storing it to mitigate drought impacts 
during dry years.
    Much of the time, the requirements and these regulations 
have nothing to do with water quality or even the operation of 
the projects they are regulating.
    And I have statements from the Modesto, Turlock, and Merced 
irrigation districts which neighbor my district, that provide 
two very recent examples that paint the picture of what is 
happening all over California, and I ask those to be included 
in the record.
    [The information follows:]

                                 
                                 
Statement of Modesto Irrigation District and Turlock Irrigation District,
             Submitted for the Record by Hon. Vince Fong
         
    We appreciate the Subcommittee holding a hearing to discuss how the 
Clean Water Act (CWA) impacts the development and continued operation 
of our critical infrastructure. As you examine this important issue, we 
urge you to consider and address how the CWA, and section 401 in 
particular, is slowing down other vital national infrastructure, such 
as the ability to license and relicense hydropower facilities through 
Federal Energy Regulatory Commission (FERC). Modesto Irrigation 
District and Turlock Irrigation District (collectively ``the 
Districts'') own and operate the FERC licensed Don Pedro Project and 
the as-yet unlicensed La Grange Project ( the Projects), which together 
generate over 200 MW of hydroelectric energy, and appreciate your 
consideration of our experience with Section 401 implementation in our 
14-year effort to relicense the Projects. Ultimately, the CWA is a 
significant driver of the cost, uncertainty, and long duration of the 
FERC relicensing process, and if it is not addressed, it has the 
potential to disrupt, restrict, or even prevent the generation of 
affordable, reliable, and emission free electricity that is critical to 
the grid.
    The Don Pedro Project is a federally licensed hydroelectric 
generating facility located on the Tuolumne River in the Sierra Nevada 
foothills approximately 130 miles east of San Francisco. As a multi-
purpose project, the Project provides over 2 million acre-feet of water 
storage for irrigation and domestic use, critical flood control, and 
renewable energy. Don Pedro Project operations also benefit fish, 
wildlife, and recreation resources. The Districts also applied to FERC 
for a license for the La Grange Project, which generates about 5 MW of 
hydroelectric energy, and serves as a diversion dam to provide 
irrigation and municipal water supplies to the Districts' customers.
    FERC issued the original 50-year license for the Don Pedro Project 
in 1966. Consistent with FERC regulations, the Districts began the 
relicensing process in 2011. Since then, at the cost of over $30 
million dollars, the Districts have conducted over 30 scientific 
studies of everything from aesthetics to fishery resources, held dozens 
of public meetings and workshops, and developed state of the art flow, 
temperature, reservoir operation and fish models that work together to 
evaluate the efficacy and impacts of various license conditions. In 
2021, based on that huge body of Tuolumne-specific scientific studies, 
FERC issued its Final Environmental Impact Statement (FEIS) as required 
by the National Environmental Policy Act and a suite of proposed 
conditions for the new Project license. At this point, FERC was ready 
to issue the new license but could not until the Districts obtained a 
CWA section 401 certification from the California State Water Resources 
Control Board (SWB).
    Although the SWB is required to issue a CWA 401 certification 
within one year of receiving an application, the Districts filed three 
applications, none of which resulted in a CWA section 401 
certification. Despite informing the Districts that the applications 
were complete, the SWB denied the first two (filed in 2018 and 2019, 
respectively) without prejudice to give themselves more time, forcing 
the Districts to refile the identical application. Then, in 2021, the 
SWB purported to issue a CWA section 401 certification even though the 
Districts had not applied for one. This certification, which was 
unilaterally withdrawn by the SWB in 2024, included 45 conditions, many 
of which were individually onerous, expensive and unduly restrictive, 
and collectively would have placed the daily operations of the Project 
subject to the control and oversight of the SWB. These conditions 
required the release of large volumes of water for downstream 
environmental purposes which were magnitudes greater than recommended 
by FERC in its FEIS. These conditions would also prevent the diversion 
of water when a federal facility located in a completely separate 
watershed was making releases required by its water right permits, 
reduce the releases of water from the Project for irrigation, domestic, 
and hydroelectric generation in order to maintain storage levels for 
later environmental use, dictate the process, methods and means for 
nearby road construction, and guarantee compliance at locations that 
are dozens of miles from the Projects' point-source discharges--beyond 
FERC's regulatory jurisdiction and so far downstream that the Districts 
are incapable of meaningfully controlling flows to meet the conditions.
    Section 401 of the CWA provides the States with the vital 
opportunity to make sure that any federally licensed discharge complies 
with its applicable water quality requirements, which in California are 
rarely reviewed and approved in their entirety by the Federal 
Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), as required by law. California 
has abused and expanded this opportunity, using it not as the 
opportunity to ensure that any federally authorized discharge complies 
with applicable water quality, but rather as an opportunity to seize 
control and oversight of the Project as a whole to achieve policy goals 
that are often only tangentially related to water quality and which 
have nothing to do with the licensed activity itself--the generation of 
hydroelectric power. Further, States have regularly failed to issue the 
required certification within the statutorily mandated 1-year 
timeframe, unilaterally requiring the licensees to refile the 
applications and delaying the issuance of a final license from FERC, 
all at an immense cost to local rate payers.
    We appreciate the Subcommittee's attention to this issue and are 
happy to answer any questions or provide any additional information.

                                 
                                 
Statement of John Sweigard, General Manager, Merced Irrigation District,
              Submitted for the Record by Hon. Vince Fong

    Dear Chairman Collins and members of the Subcommittee:
    I appreciate the opportunity to submit this testimony. The issue of 
Clean Water Act permitting could not be more dire for Merced Irrigation 
District (MID) and the community we serve in rural Merced, California 
at this moment.
    Without federal intervention related to a Clean Water Act 401 Water 
Quality Control Certification issue MID is now facing, all signs point 
to the California State Water Resources Control Board subverting our 
current federal hydropower relicensing effort with FERC, resulting in a 
complete takeover of water operations of our locally owned and operated 
reservoir, resulting in dire consequences for our community.

                               Background
                               
    The Merced Irrigation District is a California Public Agency under 
the California Irrigation District Law. MID was established in 1919. It 
owns, operates and maintains the New Exchequer Dam and Reservoir (Lake 
McClure) and McSwain Dam and Reservoir (Lake McSwain) on the Merced 
River. They are located in the western foothills of the Sierra Nevada 
mountain range, approximately 23 miles northeast of the City of Merced.
    Lake McClure has a storage capacity of 1,024,600 acre-feet, while 
Lake McSwain has a storage capacity of 9,730 acre-feet and is operated 
principally as a regulating reservoir for MID's hydroelectric 
generation facilities at New Exchequer Dam (Federal Energy Regulatory 
Commission Project No. 2179).
    The water managed by MID flows west from Lakes McClure and McSwain 
through the New Exchequer Dam hydroelectric plant creating more than 
100 megawatts of clean, renewable energy. The water then continues down 
the Merced River through more than 700 miles of canals for irrigation 
use by more than 2,200 Merced County growers.
    The water supplied by New Exchequer Dam and Lake McClure supports 
thousands of jobs and is associated with $1.5 billion in economic 
output in an otherwise economically disadvantaged community. The 
majority of those served by MID's water are small generational family 
farmers, with the average farm size being fewer than 50 acres.
    Additionally, MID's operations provide:
      140,000 acre feet of local groundwater recharge, 
sustaining local drinking water quality for roughly 150,000 people
      Flood protection for 15 different communities, 
representing 169,000 people, for 130 miles
      Flows down the Merced River during droughts
      Cold-water releases down the Merced River during critical 
time periods
      On-demand voltage regulation for the statewide electric 
grid

                At Stake: Local Control of Our Reservoir
                
    In 2005, MID began preliminary work on a new license through the 
Federal Energy Regulatory Commission (FERC). In 2008, MID issued its 
Notice of Intent to Relicense and Preliminary Application Document. 
This began numerous costly studies analyzing the impacts of the 
project. Based on these studies and multiple years of collaboration 
with federal and state agencies, in 2012 a final application was filed 
with FERC. In 2015, FERC issued a final Environmental Impact Statement 
(FEIS).
    The FEIS dictated several conditions and studies to be conducted 
under the new license for New Exchequer Dam, including new increased 
flow releases downstream of the reservoir. The federal relicensing 
process represents a $36 million investment paid completely by the 
local community that depends on Lake McClure for its water supply, 
economy, and way of life.
    As part of the FERC relicensing process, MID is required to obtain 
a Clean Water Act (CWA) 401 Water Quality Control Certificate from the 
Environmental Protection Agency. Implementation of the CWA varies from 
state to state; in California, that authority has been delegated to the 
State Water Resources Control Board.
    At the same time MID has been pursuing a new FERC license, 
California's State Water Resources Control Board has sought to update 
its Bay Delta Water Quality Control Plan for the Sacramento-San Joaquin 
River Delta which the Merced River ultimately flows into.
    In summary, the Bay Delta plan calls for an unimpaired--and 
adaptable--flow regime from Lake McClure and other local reservoirs. 
The resulting new flows would be sent downstream nearly 200 miles for 
the purported benefit of water quality in the Sacramento-San Joaquin 
Bay Delta.
    The effects of the Bay Delta Plan flow diversions would have a 
devastating impact on our agricultural water supply, domestic food 
production, local employment and economic activity as well as local 
drinking water quality.
    Further compounding these negative impacts would be reduced 
hydroelectric production that is crucial for our regional and national 
electric grid support and reliability. The issue of the Bay Delta Plan 
has been contentious and the subject of multiple past and present 
lawsuits by MID and many other local irrigation districts.
    More than a decade ago, the State Water Resources Control Board had 
stated on its website that it intended to use its CWA 401 certification 
authorities to implement the Bay Delta Water Quality Control Plan. When 
asked about this during a public meeting in Merced, California, at the 
time the chair of the Board said that would not be the case. Yet here 
we are and that's exactly what has happened.
    Which brings us to today.
    In January of 2025, the State Water Resources Control Board issued 
its draft CWA 401 certification for the federal hydropower relicensing 
process. It spans more than 100 pages and in no uncertain terms, 
directly implements its Bay Delta Water Quality Control Plan.
    In addition to attempting to implement its plan through the CWA 401 
certification process, the State Water Resources Control Board included 
many other onerous requirements that result in effectively removing 
authority from FERC and operational management of the reservoir from 
MID.
    Among the most problematic conditions placed on the operations of 
the Merced River Hydroelectric Project by the State Water Resources 
Control Board through the CWA 401 certificate:
      Decisions about water management and releases from Lake 
McClure would, in part, be recommended by three separate committees, 
rather than MID's knowledgeable engineers and managers who have safely 
and efficiently managed the reservoir for decades. The ultimate 
decision about management of the water supply would rest solely and 
exclusively with the Executive Director of the State Water Resources 
Control Board, an unelected career bureaucrat.

      MID would be responsible for maintaining flows all the 
way to the confluence of the San Joaquin River, nearly 30 miles 
downstream of MID's last point of control on the river. That stretch of 
river has dozens of water users which are not part of MID and exist 
outside its jurisdiction.

      The minimum year-end carryover storage in our reservoir 
proposed by FERC in its FEIS is rendered meaningless. As proposed in 
the CWA 401 certificate, the Deputy Director of the State Water 
Resources Control Board, another unelected career bureaucrat, would 
annually make that carryover determination regardless of consequences 
to MID.

      Perhaps most egregious, at any time, these two career 
bureaucrats can modify the flow schedule--and carryover storage--
anytime they want with no accountability to anyone, creating total 
uncertainty about water supply for MID's agricultural water users and 
hydroelectric operations.

    Without immediate federal intervention, the State Water Resources 
Control Board will steal a local water project and leave the local 
community holding the empty reservoir.
    MID will find itself burdened with:
      All the on-going operations costs of maintaining the lake 
and dam facilities for flood control and dam safety
      Inadequate water supplies for critical domestic food 
production
      Severely reduced hydroelectric production to fund these 
operations
      The loss of hundreds of millions of dollars in economic 
activity and thousands of jobs in one of the most economically 
disadvantaged communities in the state.

    Thank you for your time and consideration. We look forward to 
working with you and the Subcommittee to resolve this urgent matter 
immediately.

    Mr. Fong. If I could ask you, what advice do you have for 
making sure that States are accountable to the spirit of the 
Clean Water Act when implementing these delegated authorities?
    Mr. Singletary. Thank you, Congressman, for the question. I 
think that--I mean, it has kind of been a back-and-forth over 
the years. Different States have utilized that 401 
certification in different ways.
    Sometimes it is used or weaponized against a specific 
project, and how we use it in Oklahoma, we use it specifically, 
again, to protect water quality resources within the State, and 
we don't expand it beyond that.
    I think if there was some language in the Clean Water Act 
that specified that it was to be focused solely on water 
quality projects, discharges, water quality standards, those 
type of things, list out specifically what those 401 
certifications can be used for, that would probably limit some 
of the ability to take it beyond those water quality impacts 
that we feel that it is intended to cover.
    Mr. Fong. Do you have, like, specific recommendations that 
maybe delve a little deeper in terms of, I mean, how does it 
work in Oklahoma? And then when you talk to other States, what 
guardrails would you want to put in?
    Mr. Singletary. You are talking about specific language?
    Mr. Fong. Yes.
    Mr. Singletary. I don't have any specific language, but I 
can propose some for you and get it to you.
    Mr. Fong. I mean, do you believe that the Biden 
administration's 2023 rule regarding 401 certifications, do you 
believe that it expanded the extent of 401 review beyond 
congressional intent?
    Mr. Singletary. We do. We believe that there is the 
potential for that to be misapplied and go beyond impacts that 
are clearly associated with a proposed project and taken to 
other downstream activities that may occur as a result of a 
project but maybe aren't specifically related to that project. 
We think that potential is definitely there.
    Mr. Fong. And in your testimony, you mentioned concerns 
about third parties, potentially seeking to force States to 
address broader concerns outside the scope of the Clean Water 
Act if the current section 401 rule is left intact. Can you 
expound upon that, like, give some specific examples?
    Mr. Singletary. Sure. I mean, there is the potential, if 
that broader application is allowed, or broader scope of review 
is permitted--that even though in Oklahoma we want to tie those 
reviews, our 401 certification review, to specific water 
quality impacts coming from a proposed project--some third 
party who may have an interest in stopping that project could 
try and utilize our 401 review. Any decisions we make, that is 
going to be subject to an appeal. So they could take us to 
court and try and force us to take that review further than how 
we believe it is intended.
    Mr. Fong. Well, I certainly appreciate your testimony. I 
think the section 401 certification has been weaponized and to 
prevent needed water storage projects and energy projects. We 
need to find that balance.
    I look forward to working with you and the members of the 
committee to clarify the 401 projects and streamline it as much 
as we can. Thank you.
    Mr. Chair, I yield back.
    Mr. Collins. The Chair now recognizes the ranking member, 
Mr. Larsen, for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Larsen of Washington. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    Mr. Hanners, I have a bit of a curveball for you because--
sorry about this--we have a Nucor facility in Seattle as well. 
I don't know if that fits under sheet products or not, but I 
did note yesterday Nucor said effective new orders received 
after close of business on February 10th, the Nucor Bar Group 
will increase prices by $40 per ton on all rebar products.
    It may not impact sheet products, but it seems unusual--or 
no--coincidental that the day the President announced 25 
percent tariffs on aluminum steel products coming to the United 
States that Nucor is announcing an increase on rebar products, 
and I am wondering if you know, in fact, if there is a 
relationship between the call for a 25-percent tariff on 
aluminum and steel imports in the United States and this price 
increase?
    Mr. Hanners. So to answer the first part of your question, 
Congressman Larsen, rebar products does not fall under my group 
sheet products.
    Mr. Larsen of Washington. Mr. Spicer has rebar products?
    Mr. Hanners. That is right--Mr. Spicer. So you know Randy. 
It is a better question for him, but I will answer it at a high 
level in that we are very supportive of the actions taken by 
the President to impose tariffs on all steel products. And we 
believe that there is a strong tie to national security----
    Mr. Larsen of Washington [interrupting]. Okay. I am sorry. 
It sounds like you memorized something or are reading it. I am 
just wondering, is there a relationship between these price 
increases and the tariffs?
    Mr. Hanners. I can't comment on that in rebar.
    Mr. Larsen of Washington. Okay.
    Mr. Hanners. I can't.
    Mr. Larsen of Washington. All right.
    Mr. Hanners. There are a lot of unfairly dumped and traded 
imports that come into the country that are rebar----
    Mr. Larsen of Washington [interposing]. Yes.
    Mr. Hanners [continuing]. But I can't comment on the direct 
relationship----
    Mr. Larsen of Washington [interrupting]. Great. Thanks a 
lot.
    Is there a similar price increase coming for sheet 
products?
    Mr. Hanners. Can't comment on that either. I mean, pricing 
has been increasing already. If you look at trends, sheet 
pricing has been at a low point for the last quarter before any 
tariff action. So I think that there are other demand drivers 
that may contribute to prices moving up.
    Mr. Larsen of Washington. Fair enough. Thank you. I 
appreciate that very much.
    Mr. Singletary, in Oklahoma, as in my State, certainly in 
New Jersey, I am sure, we have local governments, water 
districts, using the State Revolving Fund money for 
infrastructure improvements. I alluded to this in my opening 
statement.
    Are you right now aware of any pause on that money? Are you 
seeing impacts or hearing from your local water districts or 
even sewer districts or other municipalities on whether or not 
that money is available or they are having to wait at all?
    Mr. Singletary. No. In fact, I have confirmed that it is, 
the money is flowing currently.
    Mr. Larsen of Washington. Okay. As recently as when?
    Mr. Singletary. I am sorry?
    Mr. Larsen of Washington. As recently as when?
    Mr. Singletary. As recently as last week, beginning of the 
last week.
    Mr. Larsen of Washington. All right. That is good. A lot of 
other money has been paused, and so we are--we approved this 
money--Congress did--approve this money. There was a pause, 
there was a startup for some, not for others.
    Mr. Singletary. Yes.
    Mr. Larsen of Washington. And we are not getting really 
clear messages at all from the current administration on what 
is moving forward and what isn't. So I do appreciate that.
    Do you want more of it?
    Mr. Singletary. Of course.
    Mr. Larsen of Washington. All right. Probably the most 
important question and answer we can get from anybody. I 
appreciate that very much.
    And then Mr. LaTourette, I want to ask you about forever 
chemicals, and what's been your experience in controlling the 
discharge of PFAS and PFOA in New Jersey?
    Mr. LaTourette. So, New Jersey has been at the tip of the 
spear on PFAS issues dating back to 2006. We did some of the 
first occurrence studies. And we have a prolific PFAS 
contamination problem in the State of New Jersey, in part 
because of the manufacturing centers, particularly in the 
southern part of the State.
    But we first set standards to control for PFAS 
contamination in drinking water back in 2020, and we put those 
standards in place before the Federal Government had acted.
    Those standards are now applied to drinking water systems. 
There are over 100 drinking water systems in the State of New 
Jersey that have impacts from PFAS chemicals, meaning, to the 
point I had made earlier of, if we are not careful about our 
discharges into waterways and if we are not regulating them and 
enforcing that regulation, inevitably, that enters into the 
water cycle.
    That which enters into the water cycle ends up coming into 
our drinking water systems, and we must put treatment on it to 
remove it.
    Mr. Larsen of Washington. All right.
    Mr. LaTourette. Huge cost.
    Mr. Larsen of Washington. And, quickly, are you hearing 
from any New Jersey water systems or sewer systems about State 
Revolving Fund money being paused at all? What is your 
experience?
    Mr. LaTourette. The way that our intended-use plans and 
our----
    Mr. Larsen of Washington [interposing]. All right.
    Mr. LaTourette [continuing]. Our--function----
    Mr. Larsen of Washington [interrupting]. Can you give me a 
yes or a no? Or get back to me.
    Mr. LaTourette. Not at this very moment, no.
    Mr. Larsen of Washington. Got it. I will get back--okay. 
Thank you.
    Mr. Collins. The Chair now recognizes Mr. Hurd for 5 
minutes.
    Mr. Hurd of Colorado. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    Good morning to our witnesses.
    Mr. Hasten--am I pronouncing that right?
    Mr. Hasten. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Hurd of Colorado. I want to get that right.
    I represent Colorado's Third Congressional District, which 
covers about half of the landmass of the State, and rural 
electric cooperatives are vital to my district, just as they 
are to much of rural America.
    When it comes to the distribution cooperatives that 
actually deliver power to rural America, whether in Arkansas, 
your home State, or in Colorado, my home State, who owns those 
distribution cooperatives?
    Mr. Hasten. The cooperative business model, the members--we 
call them member consumers--they are ultimately the owners of 
the cooperative.
    All the--as a CEO, I am charged with running the company; I 
report to a board. The board of directors comes from these 
local communities that serve these co-ops. And so the board of 
directors comes from the community. I report to that board. 
And, through that, we run the cooperative.
    But, ultimately, we look at the business model as: All of 
this exists to serve our members in a cooperative fashion.
    Mr. Hurd of Colorado. Just to be specific, so the members 
at the distribution cooperative, those are families? Those are 
small businesses? Those are ranchers? Is that correct? They are 
the owners of those distribution cooperatives?
    Mr. Hasten. Yes. Yes. All of the members of that community 
that we serve, yes.
    Mr. Hurd of Colorado. Your testimony mentions the cost of 
complying with Federal permitting programs, like section 404 
permits, Endangered Species Act, particularly the costs of 
delay.
    When it comes to those costs of delay, who pays for that?
    Mr. Hasten. In a co-op?
    Mr. Hurd of Colorado. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Hasten. Every cost I get ultimately gets passed 
directly on to those members, the members of the community that 
we serve. So it is a passthrough. So any cost that comes to us, 
we are going to pass it right back on to the community that we 
serve.
    Mr. Hurd of Colorado. So those get paid--those additional 
costs get paid by the farmers, the small-business owners, the 
families that are served by that cooperative?
    Mr. Hasten. Yes, in the form of, we will set electric rates 
to cover the cost of service, so any costs that we incur go 
into how much we have to charge for rates. So, yes, indirectly, 
through their electric rates, they will pay for any costs that 
are incurred in making the power and getting it to them.
    Mr. Hurd of Colorado. Mr. Hasten, would it be fair to say 
that these permitting delays effectively act as a hidden tax on 
rural America?
    Mr. Hasten. Yes.
    Mr. Hurd of Colorado. Thank you very much.
    Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
    Mr. Collins. The Chair now recognizes Mr. Garamendi for 5 
minutes.
    Mr. Garamendi. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It is a pleasure to 
be with you in your first hearing. And, my, you have certainly 
stepped into the big issue right at the outset. Thank you for 
doing so.
    I think I will go to a piece of legislation that is 
bipartisan in this House, that we have been working on for 
several years, and it is NPDES.
    And, specifically, Mr. Singletary, you raised this issue 
early on, that the permit is presently a 5-year permit for 
municipal districts, sanitation districts. That gives them just 
about enough time to figure out what they are going to do, and 
then they have to go get a new permit, which means they go back 
through the whole cycle again.
    The legislation we have been talking about is a 10-year 
permit period. Please comment on this. You raised the issue 
early on.
    Mr. Singletary. Certainly.
    Just recognize all the effort it takes to submit an 
application, go through that permitting process, allowing the 
State to expand the terms of those permits--you would still 
have the same environmental protection. States have the 
authority to address any issues, unforeseen issues, that come 
up. But it would provide some certainty for the regulated 
entities. They would have it for that longer period.
    And it would, like I said, essentially cut that whole 
permitting process in half. Over that 10-year period, you are 
only having to do it once instead of every 5 years. Because, 
like you said, by the time you get a permit issued, we are very 
close to--it is not very much longer that you have to start 
that process all over again and start planning for the next 
one.
    Mr. Garamendi. You did raise a piece of the concern, and 
that is, in that intervening 10-year period, there could very 
well be some extraordinary event, unknown, unforeseen, that 
might cause--or, should cause new review.
    I think you talked about that briefly or skipped right over 
it. Could you get to that in a little more detail?
    Mr. Singletary. Certainly, Congressman.
    If there was an issue that is discovered, we still have the 
ability to address that through our implementation and 
enforcement process, but we can also trigger additional review. 
And we can--actually, there are provisions that allow us to 
require that permit to be amended to address those concerns if 
something is discovered.
    Mr. Garamendi. I raise this--we are going to reintroduce 
this bipartisan bill in the next few weeks, and I draw the 
attention of the committee and the new chair to it. I think it 
would be one of the ways in which we can expedite the 
permitting--or, reduce the amount of permitting that is 
required.
    So I will let it go at that.
    There are other issues. I suppose I ought to pound away on 
the impoundment issues that are out there.
    Do any of you have specific examples of the way in which 
the current Trump impoundment of funds is affecting your 
district?
    Mr. Singletary? I will go on down. Maybe Mr. Hanners, I 
don't know. Mr. Hasten surely.
    Mr. Singletary. I am sorry. Impoundment?
    Mr. Garamendi. This is the current impoundment of the 
Federal funding.
    Mr. Singletary. Oh, the funding.
    Mr. Garamendi. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Singletary. I think we in Oklahoma recognize the 
current administration's--that they see a benefit in reviewing 
these funds. We hope that review goes quickly.
    We do think that the projects that come through us, they 
are so critically important, whether it is wastewater or public 
water supply projects, that they are going to survive any 
review that occurs. We think they are that essential to 
Oklahoma and, obviously, the country.
    Mr. Garamendi. Well, we have heard from Mr. Hanners that 
delays cost money. So you are seeing delays in Oklahoma on 
projects?
    Mr. Singletary. We are not seeing any delays at this point.
    Mr. Garamendi. Could there be delays if this impoundment 
continues?
    Mr. Singletary. Well, right now, the funding--the money is 
continuing to be released. We have reached out to EPA, who kind 
of controls the purse strings for us, and they let us know that 
all the funding sources that we are involved in, that that 
money is still flowing to those projects.
    Mr. Garamendi. Mr. LaTourette, examples in New Jersey?
    Mr. LaTourette. So we saw some immediate implications from 
the funding freeze a couple weeks ago, so much so that New 
Jersey took legal action in a court case with other States. And 
that judge returned a decision that the funds could not be 
frozen.
    They continued to be frozen, and the court had to issue 
another order just yesterday reminding the President of 
complying with the law.
    Mr. Garamendi. Mr. Hasten, examples from your State?
    Mr. Hasten. I don't have any examples where it has cost us 
any delay.
    Mr. Garamendi. So we have a red State and a blue State 
different. Interesting. Maybe there is targeted impoundment.
    I am going to let it go. I am going to yield back my 2 
seconds.
    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. Collins. Thank you.
    The Chair recognizes Mr. Burlison for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Burlison. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And it is good to 
see you up there. Congratulations.
    Mr. Hanners, the Clean Water Act was enacted to restore the 
integrity of our Nation's waters. However, in recent years, it 
has been weaponized, mostly by environmental zealots with a 
political agenda that goes far beyond the primary purpose of 
protecting water.
    Do you agree that the Clean Water Act has strayed from its 
original intent?
    Mr. Hanners. I can speak to what we have gone through at 
our West Virginia mill project. I appreciate the question, 
Congressman.
    We started off with an understanding of the Corps of 
Engineers that we needed--a certain scope was going to be 
included in the permitting for this project. So, what happened 
in this situation--and we have encountered in other projects of 
this size and scope as we navigate the 404 process--is the 
scope that was initially explained to us and that we entered 
into changed dramatically as we got further into the project.
    So, very frequently throughout the process, we have other 
entities that are involved in doing a study, whether that is on 
artifacts we may come across, whether that is on wetlands. And 
each of those different interfaces with the permit causes 
examples of--I can give you examples of very long delays 
related to each of those different directions of the permit. 
So, for our West Virginia project, for example, we incurred 
hundreds of millions of dollars in additional loss attributed 
to the extenuation of this permitting process.
    So it is an example of us--we need certainty, stability, 
and consistency in the process. We know what to expect when we 
enter the process, and we understand that the process is going 
to be timely, and we understand how to navigate the process.
    We are fully on board with navigating a process that both 
provides us the opportunity to get a project of that scope 
permitted and also protects the environment.
    Mr. Burlison. How would you like to see that? Would you 
prefer to have it streamlined so that all of those entities 
that might be affected are asking for that research to be done 
concurrently? Or what ideas are there to streamline that 
process?
    Mr. Hanners. The States know best about their water 
resources. And our interactions at the State level have been 
very good. They are responsive; they are knowledgeable. If 
there is a question about how to navigate something, we get a 
quick resolution on what steps we should take.
    So we believe that we should get that process to the State 
level and also keep the States focused on their statutory duty 
to prioritize water quality as they navigate the process.
    Mr. Burlison. I know in my own State of Missouri, I would 
agree with you; our State, the Department of Natural Resources 
does a better job than the EPA.
    However, our State and probably many States have an 
arrangement in place where they are required to enforce 
whatever the EPA has issued. So we had a lot of issues, for 
example, when it came to trichloroethylene being in our water 
supplies. There was a dispute as to what was acceptable levels 
of this product, which I guess is diesel cleaning fluid, is 
basically what it is, or it is a byproduct of that.
    So, what we determined was, when we tracked it down, there 
wasn't a law that was put into place, there was no one on the 
Federal level that changed anything, but an unelected official 
had issued a guidance document, and that subsequently caused 
the State of Missouri and, I am assuming, many other States to 
change regulations radically.
    Do you see that happening in other States?
    Mr. Hanners. We do. We have experienced that with our West 
Virginia project, another one we executed recently in 
Brandenburg.
    And listening to Mr. Hasten describe his project early on, 
we experienced a very similar challenge to what you just laid 
out as well and the process that he nailed down during his 
project description.
    Mr. Burlison. It would seem that we need to do something 
just universally up here to make a statement or put into the 
law that the Federal Government, unless it is an act of 
Congress or somebody who is elected making this decision--the 
force of an unelected official shouldn't carry the same weight. 
So I think that is something we ought to look into.
    Thank you. My time has expired.
    Mr. Collins. The Chair now recognizes Mrs. Sykes for 5 
minutes.
    Mrs. Sykes. Thank you to the chair and ranking member for 
holding this hearing today and kicking us off for the 119th 
Congress for the Water Resources and Environment Subcommittee.
    I appreciate your leadership on this subcommittee and look 
forward to working with you both as we work to improve our 
Nation's water infrastructure and ensuring access to clean 
water for the people of Ohio's 13th Congressional District, 
where I have the honor of representing, and all across the 
United States of America.
    The Clean Water Act exists for a reason.
    On June 22, 1969, the Cuyahoga River caught on fire due to 
extreme pollution for the 13th time. This poster next to me 
shows, although in black and white, what it looked like in 
Cleveland as a river caught on fire. Imagine a body of water 
catching on fire.
    And this image, which was taken of the fire in 1952, was 
published in a Time magazine article covering the 1969 fire 
that helped catalyze a movement to protect our waters and our 
planet, ultimately leading to the creation of Earth Day, which 
is on April 22nd, and in a movement around protecting water in 
a much more substantial and meaningful way.
    You all know in this committee how much I love to brag on 
my district and particularly my home State of Ohio, and this is 
not something that we could brag about, but, thankfully, the 
bad news was not the last news for Ohio or for this country, 
because this movement also led to the creation of the 
Environmental Protection Agency and, after much bipartisan 
collaboration, the passage of the Clean Water Act in 1972.
    I take some exception to some of the testimony I heard 
today about the Clean Water Act and enforcing it, because it 
has been very hard for Cleveland--I don't represent Cleveland--
to shake off the misnomer ``the mistake on the lake,'' and it 
has reverberated for generations to come. So it is important 
that we protect water not just for this century, this 
generation, but futures to come so we don't see other mistakes 
on the lake or whatever you want to call it.
    And so, now, the Cuyahoga River, which runs through my 
district, through the Cuyahoga Valley National Park--and it is 
one of the most visited national parks in the United States. It 
took 20 years and $3.5 billion in infrastructure investments to 
clean up the Cuyahoga River and to allow nature to return to 
its shores, something that we are still working on every single 
day.
    This underscores what it costs when we don't protect our 
waters and the billions of dollars we can save by investing in 
clean water and water infrastructure before disasters strike. 
And so that is why I am such a proud supporter of the 
Bipartisan Infrastructure Law, which has authorized over $17 
billion for communities nationwide to improve America's water 
infrastructure.
    Now, one of the largest investments that we have received 
was in the city to Canton to modernize some of its water 
systems. But I do want to talk about the impact on the Federal 
freeze and this pause-and-review strategy, because this is 
significant. And I know we don't always like to talk about our 
history, but history will repeat itself if we continue to make 
the same mistakes.
    And so, Mr. LaTourette, as a State leader who is tasked 
with protecting your waterways and the infrastructure, can you 
talk about what the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law has done for 
communities, mid- and small-size communities like Akron and 
Canton, where I represent, and how this freeze or the pause-
and-review strategy is impacting the ability to keep our 
waterways clean?
    Mr. LaTourette. Thank you, Congresswoman, for the question.
    The Bipartisan Infrastructure Law, in the water space, 
brought about $1 billion over 5 years to the State of New 
Jersey. And I mentioned before that we have a need for water 
infrastructure investment that is nearly $32 billion over 20 
years. And I make that comparison because, while the Bipartisan 
Infrastructure Law was historic in the size and scope of its 
investment in our infrastructure, it is nowhere near enough, 
and we have to continue making the investments.
    We should fully federally fund the Clean Water State 
Revolving Fund to its maximum amount. Because what we are able 
to do in New Jersey when we have a greater amount of Federal 
funding and there is not the specter of risk that it will not 
be there for us when the next cycle of intended-use planning is 
right around the corner, what we are able to do with it is turn 
that $1 billion into $4 billion with the way that we leverage 
our State funds and the private funds we bring in. And that----
    Mrs. Sykes [interrupting]. Mr. LaTourette, I am so sorry to 
cut you off, because I could sit and listen to you talk about 
the State Revolving Fund for hours, but I only have 2 seconds 
left and I want to make sure I make a point, that this poster 
is, again, indicative of what happens if we don't act.
    I believe in permitting reform. We should and we can do 
better. But their next frontier is PFAS. And I have seen a lot 
of the testimony hitting against it and trying to keep us from 
ensuring that we are keeping our water safe. Let's not let this 
happen again. And let's commit to working with one another to 
find appropriate permitting reform and ways to keep our 
waterways safe.
    Thank you, Mr. Chair. I appreciate you giving me a couple 
extra moments, and I yield back.
    Mr. Collins. The Chair now recognizes Mr. Onder for 5 
minutes.
    Dr. Onder. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. Hasten, in your testimony, you underscore the 
importance of rural electric co-ops in providing power, 
especially to rural areas, in your home State. And in Missouri, 
co-ops play a very vital role in our infrastructure and 
supplying power to those communities.
    Can you describe how inefficient clean-water permitting 
adds to costs, which are already higher for rural electric 
consumers, than if the permitting process were more efficient 
and sensible?
    Mr. Hasten. Congressman, thank you for the question. And 
for 8 years, I made power in Missouri for their electric co-
ops, so I am very familiar----
    Dr. Onder [interposing]. Yes.
    Mr. Hasten [continuing]. With the co-ops in your State.
    Delays--if you have an expected sort of timeline, right--so 
the projects that we do, if I wanted to build a new powerplant 
today, even the simplest powerplant, a simple natural gas 
powerplant, it is a 5-year process.
    Dr. Onder. Right.
    Mr. Hasten. And so, we layer in all of the planning and all 
of the--when we need to put in for permits and when we need to 
invest in infrastructure.
    Well, if you buy things, let's say very expensive capital 
infrastructure, and you have this expected timeline of when it 
goes into service----
    Dr. Onder [interposing]. Right.
    Mr. Hasten [continuing]. But then it doesn't--so imagine a 
$500 million powerplant that doesn't go online. Everything is 
sitting there, and you are gaining interest during 
construction, right?
    Dr. Onder. Right.
    Mr. Hasten. All of that is just adding to the cost. That 
thing is not creating any benefit. You are not putting power 
out to members or to supply load, generate revenue to make it a 
useful asset.
    So it is on that scale----
    Dr. Onder [interrupting]. And that is a cost.
    Mr. Hasten [continuing]. That these delays just add cost.
    Dr. Onder. Right.
    Mr. Hasten. Not to mention staff hours, consultants, 
lawyers. Those are just administrative fees that add up.
    And as the Congressman from Colorado had mentioned, every 
one of those, as a co-op, I am passing that right on to the 
people that I serve in my communities. They are paying for it. 
I am just the conduit.
    Dr. Onder. So, in your experience, dealing with the State 
of Arkansas on permitting, how does that compare with your 
experience dealing with the Federal Government: the EPA and the 
Army Corps of Engineers?
    Mr. Hasten. I would say that, for section 401 and section 
402 permits, we are lucky in the State of Arkansas that the 
ADEQ, Arkansas Department of Environmental Quality, is able to 
control those. They have been delegated that authority to do 
that.
    Dr. Onder. Yes.
    Mr. Hasten. My experience with them is outstanding.
    Dr. Onder. Good.
    Mr. Hasten. Yes, they are my regulator; yes, they tell me I 
have to do things that are like, ``Oh, that's hard to do''----
    Dr. Onder [interposing]. Sure.
    Mr. Hasten [continuing]. But there is a partnership.
    Dr. Onder. Right.
    Mr. Hasten. So I am trying to serve the community, I am 
trying to serve economic development, I am trying to do that. 
They have their job to do, and--but you feel that sense of 
partnership. So, if they tell me it is going to be 60 days, I 
get it in 60 days. If they do it--sometimes they get it to me 
faster. So, a real partnership, good communication.
    When we go to section 404 and we are working with Federal 
agencies, it is, I would say, generally poor communication or 
ignored communication or continual emails and calls from us to 
get anyone to answer the phone type of communication. And to 
say that it is a bit of the runaround, instead of partnering 
together to say, ``Look, this is important. Clean water is 
important. We have these rules. How do we comply?''
    Working with our Arkansas department--I would also say, I 
have worked with Oklahoma. Great. Worked with Missouri DNR; I 
have worked with Iowa DNR. I have had great experiences with 
all those State agencies.
    Dr. Onder. Good.
    Mr. Hasten. What you get at the Federal level, there is a 
certain sense of, ``We are the law. We are the top. And what we 
say goes, no questions asked. And I don't really feel compelled 
to--I don't have to do this under a timeline other than what I 
want. And your project isn't really a timeline that means 
anything to me.''
    Dr. Onder. Yes, you must at times wonder whether this is 
really the law that you are hearing about or the opinion of 
some unelected bureaucrat.
    From your perspective, what would be the impact on electric 
co-ops if nationwide permitting were not reauthorized?
    Mr. Hasten. If it was not reauthorized?
    Dr. Onder. Not reauthorized.
    Mr. Hasten. It would be detrimental. Very detrimental.
    I mean, there are a lot of things we do under nationwide 
permits, right? Transmission line maintenance, right-of-way 
clearing, recovering from storms.
    Dr. Onder. Sure.
    Mr. Hasten. So, if every single thing we did that needs to 
be in some way sort of time-sensitive, if it had to go through 
the full review--and some things need to go through that full 
review----
    Dr. Onder [interposing]. Right.
    Mr. Hasten [continuing]. But a lot of things do not. And if 
you got rid of those, it would be really damaging.
    Dr. Onder. Thank you.
    I yield back.
    Mr. Collins. The Chair now recognizes Ms. Friedman for 5 
minutes.
    Ms. Friedman. Thank you, Chair Collins and Vice Ranking 
Member Scholten.
    I am very honored to be a member of this subcommittee. 
Water is hugely important in my area, in California and Los 
Angeles. I served on the Metropolitan Water District board of 
directors for 8 years and sat on the water committee in the 
California legislature. And I am really looking forward to 
working with all of you on water issues.
    The health of our families and our economy and local water 
bodies and wetlands depends on robust investment in water 
infrastructure and strong water standards. And I have been very 
interested to hear today about the, sometimes, tension between 
environmental protections and economic development and moving 
projects forward.
    And, certainly, everybody wants to make sure that any 
regulation that we have moves quickly, that entities that are 
looking for permitting in the regulated community have a 
process that is fair, that moves rapidly, and that makes sense.
    But, at the same time, I do want to push back a little bit 
about some of the terms that I have heard, like ``radical 
environmental activist.'' I don't think that it is radical for 
families to want to make sure that their children are not 
drinking PFAS, chromium-6, lead, and other harmful materials. 
It is certainly not radical for the people of Los Angeles to be 
very frustrated that when we have our droughts like we have 
every year, that we can't drink from the giant aquifer that is 
under Los Angeles because of historic pollution.
    And I think that, also, those of us who want Government to 
be efficient really bristle at wasting billions of dollars 
every year cleaning up pollution--air pollution, water 
pollution, pollution of the ground--from industries that could 
have been prevented from causing this pollution in the first 
place through strong environmental protections and 
environmental regulations.
    So it is not at all at odds for those of us who want 
efficiency and economic development to also demand strong 
regulation to prevent that kind of waste, to prevent the human 
cost and human health impacts from not regulating, which we 
have seen happen so far over the years.
    Now, the recent Supreme Court ruling in Sackett v. EPA to 
exclude certain wetlands from the definition of ``waters of the 
United States'' pushes back decades-old regulation and makes 
fewer wetlands to be covered under the Clean Water Act since 
the 1970s. The ruling excluded ephemeral waters and 
intermittent waters, both of which are incredibly important to 
California because of the way our hydrology works. In fact, 90 
percent of California's original wetlands have already been 
destroyed.
    And the Trump administration stripped away environmental 
protections in their last administration, and there is every 
indication that they want to do so again. That would be harmful 
to our pocketbooks and certainly harmful to public health.
    I was proud in the California legislature to have passed AB 
2875, which codified the Executive order from Governor Pete 
Wilson to establish a State policy of no net loss of wetlands 
and only long-term gain. And I am proud to say that that bill 
was bipartisan, that it was supported by Republicans and 
Democrats alike who recognized the importance of these 
resources.
    Commissioner LaTourette, I want to thank you for being with 
us today. Can you just maybe briefly speak to the importance of 
the Clean Water Act and robust environmental protections to the 
State of New Jersey?
    Mr. LaTourette. Thank you for the question.
    I think we have to recognize that every single thing we do 
across our landscape, every single thing we build, how we 
operate our businesses, how we run the Government, always has 
an environmental externality. Everything has an environmental 
externality.
    The question that I think we should be asking ourselves is, 
how do we reduce those externalities such that it is not a 
great cost to business? Because when those externalities are 
not addressed at the beginning, they become a cost, 
necessarily, to someone else: harming someone's health, 
diminishing our recreational and commercial fisheries, right?
    Because the externality that is wrought by a lack of 
adequate pollution control on wastewater discharge has to be 
addressed somewhere else, because there is only one water, and 
it is all connected. And so, if we are not reducing our 
pollutant loadings to waterways, the public, the taxpayer, is 
going to be left holding the bag, such that that pollution is 
then remedied by a drinking water system, right, for example.
    So we, I believe, have to look at this more holistically 
and not only as a cost center to any one particular regulated 
actor.
    Ms. Friedman. Thank you very much.
    I yield back.
    Mr. Collins. The Chair now recognizes Mr. Westerman for 5 
minutes.
    Mr. Westerman. Thank you, Chairman Collins.
    And thank you to the witnesses for being here today.
    And I am just going to keep rehashing something that has 
been talked about a lot. It is something I have--I am going to 
start with a story that I have talked about a lot that doesn't 
really deal with clean water, but it deals with a broken 
process.
    I think, if my staff wants me to wake up in the morning, 
they give me a lot of coffee and they schedule meetings with 
people who are frustrated with our permitting process.
    And, this morning, I had a--first meeting was with a county 
executive from back home in Arkansas, who was telling me about 
how long it took him to get a permit from the Corps of 
Engineers to build a bike trail, a little section of bike 
trail, and ended up having to go to Vicksburg from Little Rock 
even though there is a Little Rock District right there close 
by.
    And then I had the pleasure of meeting with FHWA on a road 
project that--I am going to keep talking about this, if I live 
long enough and keep getting reelected, until they get the 
project finished. But we had a road washout--Forest Service 
road washout in 2020 and then another landslide on the road in 
2022. And they have $6 million to study and fix the project. 
And the best date they could give me this morning was 2027.
    So we are looking at 6 or 7 years to fix a 1-acre landslide 
on a gravel road in the national forest that is causing people 
to have to go 30 and 40 minutes out of the way to get to 
school, to get to the hospital. There is a concessionaire on 
the Forest Service land that--his business has been hurt by 
this. And it is all because we have a broken permitting 
process.
    So FHWA, they are doing what the Forest Service wants to 
do, because they are dealing with emergency funding and it 
doesn't come out of the Forest Service budget. So, instead of 
building a road around the slide, they are having to repair the 
slide, so we are talking about $6 million to fix a gravel road. 
And if you stand back and look at it, you think, this has no 
environmental benefit. It is just the bureaucracy that is 
dealing with an antiquated system.
    So I asked, why does the Forest Service not want you to 
build a road around it? Well, we have to go through at least an 
EA and maybe an environmental impact statement through the NEPA 
process, but if we go where the road already is, we can just do 
a CE. Well, my question is, why do you have to do a CE to fix a 
road that has been there for a long time? I mean, there is no 
common sense in these laws.
    And I don't totally fault the bureaucrats; I fault Congress 
for not fixing the system. And Mr. Collins and I serve on 
another committee that has jurisdiction over NEPA, and I think 
there is going to be a good bipartisan effort this Congress to 
fix the myriad problems with NEPA.
    And in talking to FHWA, they said the worst group to deal 
with is Corps of Engineers. You have to do a permit with Corps 
of Engineers.
    So we need broad permitting reform. And we will just start 
at the end, and if you have one suggestion on permitting 
reform--we want to protect the environment, but we want a 
streamlined process where we can actually build stuff in 
America again.
    Mr. Singletary. If I had one suggestion, I would give 
States more authority to implement the programs and, kind of, 
make changes to the programs as necessary within their States.
    A lot of times, they are much closer to the projects. We 
have a lot more at stake for some of them, because they are 
happening in our State. We can be a lot more responsive. 
Sometimes when we are working with our counterparts, our 
Federal counterparts, they may not be located--in fact, almost 
none of ours are actually located within the State, so we are 
dealing with folks at distance, and sometimes that can slow 
down the process.
    Mr. Westerman. Mr. LaTourette.
    Mr. LaTourette. I agree with my colleague here from 
Oklahoma that State environmental agencies are more present and 
in the work with the regulated actor than Federal agencies are, 
unquestionably.
    New Jersey has maximum assumption under almost every one of 
the Federal environmental laws, and then we add additional 
protections, because that is what our public demands. And we 
are able to trim permitting timelines down as a function of 
everything living under one roof.
    We have an office called the Office of Permitting and 
Project Navigation, for example. They exist to steward projects 
through the regulatory process so as to not land in one of the 
gaps that folks have identified here today.
    And so I believe maximum State assumption--but that needs 
to be funded by Congress, right? Categorical grants to State 
environmental agencies need to go up.
    Mr. Westerman. Mr. Chair, if it is okay if the other 
witnesses would submit a written answer to that, I would 
appreciate it.
    I am obviously out of time, and I yield back.
    Mr. Collins. Yes, I will probably finish with that question 
myself.
    The Chair now recognizes Ms. Pou for 5 minutes.
    Ms. Pou. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    And thank you to all the witnesses that are here today.
    We have heard and much has been said that, over the 50 
years, the Clean Water Act has served to reduce pollution in 
waterways across this Nation.
    With the passage of time, it is easy to forget why the law 
was enacted in the first place. Lakes were filled with 
chemicals. Streams were clogged with sewage. And we heard 
earlier testimony, or comments, about how rivers were literally 
on fire.
    Our environment and public health has changed for the 
better thanks to the bipartisan Clean Water Act.
    I would like to mention and to ask Commissioner LaTourette: 
New Jersey is an excellent example of how States can improve 
efficiency in the permitting process. Could you please share 
with us what are some of the best practices from New Jersey 
that you would recommend to other States?
    Mr. LaTourette. So the first thing that I would recommend 
is that we support, federally, the assumption of the programs 
we have talked about here today by States, that the Federal 
Government increase its funding to States for implementation.
    Our State employees are cheaper than your Federal 
employees, and I think that that is an important point. And 
they are closer to the work on the ground, and what we have 
seen in the State of New Jersey is a greater degree of 
efficiency and speed because of that integration of permitting 
processes.
    Now, I know we have heard a lot today about delays costing 
time, costing money, and then that can be a problem. I 
recognize that that can be a problem. But permitting reform 
isn't just one thing. When we say that ``it has taken 7 years 
to get this project permitted,'' there are local, State, and 
Federal considerations.
    The most important thing that any regulated actor can do--
and I know this because I counseled them as a lawyer in the 
private sector before--is to run all of their processes 
concurrently. There are so many issues that you can identify 
upfront and then talk to your State regulated agency 
beforehand, well before you ever make a permit application. 
Because we are there to work with you and identify any of the 
flags way upfront. And when you do that upfront, your 
permitting process is far more expedient.
    Ms. Pou. Thank you for that.
    Can you also share with us how ensuring clean water for our 
communities pays dividends in terms of savings in other areas 
like public health and contributing to the economy?
    Mr. LaTourette. So, aside from creating the 170,000 
construction jobs that I mentioned, our water bank investments 
help to make our waterways more swimmable and more fishable, 
directly bearing on our tourism and recreational economy.
    But there are really important public health issues at work 
here. Take, for example, in the northeastern section of New 
Jersey, where there are communities built out 100 and 150 years 
ago with really dated, old infrastructure--combined sewers that 
bring together the stormwater and the sanitary water, all going 
through pipes that are not big enough. And then what happens? 
Backups of that sewage into our streets that our children have 
to walk through on their way to school. That is not okay, 
right?
    And by making more investment, we can both increase 
permitting timelines but get more projects in the ground.
    Ms. Pou. Thank you.
    First of all, thank you very much for responding to that 
question, because my very own city of Paterson knows all too 
well what that impact is like, particularly when we are talking 
about combined sewer systems and how antiquated they are and 
how costly they can be. Having this in place is certainly going 
to be very helpful.
    Thank you very much for your remarks.
    I yield back, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. Collins. Thank you.
    The Chair now recognizes himself for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Hanners, Nucor, it says you are the largest, most 
diversified steel producer in the United States. Carbon 
footprint roughly 10 percent of the particulate emissions of 
the average steel mill out there; 95 percent less water than 
the average steel mill. Eighty-six percent of your process 
water is reprocessed before it is discharged.
    I think it is safe to say that Nucor wants to be the best 
in the industry, hire the best people, take care of the 
environment, and, overall, be the best steward that you can be.
    So I want to kind of delve into something real quick. I 
read through a lot of your testimony here, and I want to get 
into your West Virginia project, because I want--I live by 
example. I am just a commonsense-type person. You give me an 
example of what is going on, I can better understand it.
    I want to kind of look at the loading dock and the barge 
problem that you had there. And I don't know how much you can 
speak on it, but I do know that, in reading here, it caused 
your project to go from $2.7 billion to $3.5 billion.
    And then, if you could, I don't know if you can intertwine 
some NWP, the nationwide permitting, in that. Would that have 
helped? Not helped? Since this is obviously not the first 
loading dock and barge dock that you have ventured on.
    Mr. Hanners. Certainly. I appreciate the question.
    You are right; we are as passionate about the environment 
and continuing to innovate to find cleaner ways to make steel. 
You would be astounded at our team and any of our sites you 
visited. It is part of our culture to find new ways to better 
serve the environment.
    To your questions about West Virginia, the port facility is 
one example--there are others--of us finding a specific 
instance--in this case, it is mussels in the water, in the Ohio 
River, West Virginia--and then really struggling to find a 
solution to partner with the entity--in this case, the Corps of 
Engineers and the Fish and Wildlife department--to create a 
solution.
    And it wasn't that we weren't ready to make the investment 
to create the solution; it is that we couldn't get clarity on 
what the solution needed to be. And that is where the 
boundaries and where we think reform could come in and really 
help us be much more efficient and on time and on budget with a 
project like this, is, we are willing to make the investments 
necessary to meet our responsibilities to the environment, but 
we need to know what they are. We need clarity, and we need the 
ability to take action in the way that is expected of us.
    As long as the permitting process is consistent and it is 
clear to us what we need to do, and we can get the answers and 
responses we need in a timely manner, we are fully on board 
with making those investments and making those changes.
    Mr. Collins. Well----
    Mr. Hanners [interrupting]. So your point about the $2.7 
billion to $3.5 billion, over $3.5 billion now, that was one 
instance, but I could list off five or six others that were 
very similar to that.
    Mr. Collins. Well, let me ask kind of what Chairman 
Westerman was asking when he said the one big change, if you 
could make one change.
    And I know the two gentlemen to your right suggested more 
State rights. And believe me, I am big on State rights. I mean, 
it is a whole lot better than having this place up here make 
decisions for you.
    But would you say clarifying regulations or States' rights 
would be--or something else?
    Mr. Hanners. So States' rights, yes. The State entities we 
work with are responsive, they are thorough. We partner with 
them; it feels like a partnership.
    But I would also add judicial review, limiting judicial 
review. We are fully on board with complying, but we need 
resolution. And sometimes we will get, midnight, last day of 
the permitting process, we will get somebody who will drop in a 
challenge, and then we will need to extenuate the permit in 
order to----
    Mr. Collins [interrupting]. I know----
    Mr. Hanners [continuing]. Go after that challenge.
    Mr. Collins. I don't mean to break in. I know, in highways 
and transit, a lot of your road-builders just factor in an 
extra 30 percent of the cost to build roads and bridges just 
because of the environmentalists' frivolous lawsuits.
    Mr. Hanners. Yes.
    Mr. Collins. Is there a number you all add into the 
equation?
    Mr. Hanners. No, we don't account for that upfront. But 
I'll tell you, what happens is, when we have bad experiences, a 
challenging experience, like West Virginia, it makes us more 
conservative with our next iteration of how we think about the 
returns we are going to generate on a process, which makes us 
less likely to make an investment in the future.
    Mr. Collins. Right.
    Mr. Hanners. We are a successful company. We plan to 
continue to grow. But it does take a little bit of our 
willingness to make that next investment. It makes us ask more 
questions, to be more conservative.
    Mr. Collins. Mr. Hasten, I want to give you 30 seconds to 
answer Chairman Westerman's question. What out there would you 
like to change first if you had the option?
    Mr. Hasten. I agree with everyone else that said, push as 
much down to the States as you can. They are in the local 
community, they know the situation, and there is more of a 
partnership.
    And then I would think, at the Federal level, just some 
consolidation. You got all these individual fiefdoms all trying 
to determine things in an individual way, with no real 
accountability. Like----
    Mr. Collins [interposing]. Yes.
    Mr. Hasten [continuing]. In my company, if I tell you, ``I 
want this in 30 days,'' in 30 days, I am going to send you an 
email and say, ``Where is it at?'' and you will be held 
accountable. There is no accountability anywhere.
    Just some accountability. Set some clear deadlines. We are 
not asking for anybody to lower the hurdles. Keep the hurdles 
high. Keep the standards high. Keep the water clean. But let's 
run the race, and let's hold people accountable to timelines.
    Mr. Collins. Thank you. Thank you.
    And I yield back.
    The Chair now gives 5 minutes to Ms. Gillen for questions.
    Ms. Gillen. Thank you, Chairman.
    And thank you to our witnesses for coming and testifying 
today.
    Mr. LaTourette, in your testimony, you highlighted how, 
under section 404 of the Clean Water Act, project applicants 
were often challenged to adhere to two different but 
overlapping permitting processes at both the State and Federal 
level.
    Can you talk about some of the ways that we can streamline 
the permitting process to get rid of duplicative and redundant 
requirements, but yet keep strong environmental protections in 
place?
    Mr. LaTourette. Yes. I think one of the biggest things that 
we can do is to provide States with the incentive to adopt the 
Federal programs and implement them on behalf of the Federal 
Government.
    Now, that doesn't give States a free pass, let's be clear. 
The States are still overseen--and should be--by the U.S. EPA 
and, in some instances, the Army Corps to ensure that we are 
compliant with the minimum Federal standard. But bringing it 
down to the State level would necessarily have a beneficial 
impact, as folks up here have recognized.
    But that does not mean compromising environmental quality. 
And I am glad to hear everybody up here speak to that point. 
Because we have to acknowledge that the pollution controls that 
EPA sets are minimums--truly minimums. They are not acceptable 
in the State of New Jersey, and they don't allow us to be 
proactive about new pollutants that are emerging in the 
marketplace and in our water supplies.
    Ms. Gillen. Yes. Just following up on that, I want to get 
rid of redundancies in our permitting processes. I was a local 
government official before I got here, and I know that 
sometimes we could get caught up, as you say, Mr. Hanners, in 
litigation forever just trying to get a project across the 
finish line. But we do have States with varying standards. So 
that is why, when I hear ``States' rights'' and things like 
that--some States don't have the same standards that others do.
    Mr. Hanners, in your written testimony--I was not here for 
your verbal testimony--you talked about emerging contaminants 
and that some of the standards may be too high. Well, we know 
that these are carcinogens. And I certainly don't want my 
family drinking carcinogens; I don't want other people's 
families drinking carcinogens. And I do know the real costs of 
filtering these emerging contaminants out of our system, but I 
think that we need to agree that we have to have a very high 
standard when we are talking about water containing these 
emerging contaminants.
    So what do you think is the best way forward to get some 
uniform agreement so we can streamline the permitting process, 
Mr. Hanners?
    Mr. Hanners. Well, I will say that manufacturing processes 
like ours, Nucor--but I can speak more broadly--are cleaner 
than ever. And we strive to find new technology to make it even 
cleaner. And I can give you examples like a carbon 
sequestration project we are navigating in Louisiana where it 
will make a material impact to the cleanliness of our steel. We 
are making those investments. We are working on those things 
all the time.
    The challenge with the new regulation you mentioned, 
PM2.5, is, we need a seat at the table. Because some 
of those standards are either unclear or we are not sure how to 
manage that problem. And if we have a seat at the table during 
the implementation or the build of that policy, then we can 
help, one, equip us with a better understanding of how to 
navigate that, but, two, potentially push back or help shape 
something that achieves an outcome of making the environment 
cleaner but also is feasible and implementable by companies 
like ours and manufacturers like ourselves.
    Ms. Gillen. Thank you.
    Mr. Singletary, I believe in your written testimony you 
spoke a bit about how the permitting process is also 
complicated by multiple different agencies weighing in.
    And I think that is also the litigation that you spoke 
about in your testimony, Mr. Hanners.
    What is a way that you think that we could streamline the 
permitting process with giving a seat at the table to all the 
different various agencies that might be involved in a big 
project or might have some impact on a big project?
    Mr. Singletary. Your question--I am sorry, Congresswoman--
was regarding multiple agencies----
    Ms. Gillen [interrupting]. Correct.
    Mr. Singletary [continuing]. In the same process?
    I think making sure that the role of each of the agencies 
is well-defined and coordinated is probably the biggest issue.
    I can tell you, when we look at our permitting program at 
the agency, I mean, we are looking beyond just what 
coordination with other agencies is like. We are looking--we 
have an Office of Continuous Improvement that has gone through 
every step that we take internally to help determine what are 
the slowdowns in our process that are caused by us, how can we 
improve those.
    We are putting big investments into different platforms 
that we need for the permitting process, bidding a rulemaking, 
and potentially some legislation to help streamline our 
process. I think something like that at the Federal level would 
really help coordinate all those efforts.
    Ms. Gillen. Thank you so much.
    I yield back.
    Mr. Knott [presiding]. Thank you, ma'am.
    The Chair recognizes Representative LaMalfa.
    Mr. LaMalfa. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Thank you, panelists, for being here with us today as we 
talk about the Clean Water Act and its well intention back in 
the 1970s when passed and its weaponization these days to stop 
so many projects and other things beyond the scope of what I 
think was ever intended and been reinterpreted according to 
Army Corps and others.
    So, when you talk about the different permits, the 402 
permit under NPDES, National Pollutant Discharge Elimination 
System, all pollutant discharges into a ``water of the U.S.'' 
are prohibited unless that 402 is granted. So this is for 
private sector as well as Federal.
    I know we talk about a 404 permit for dredge/fill on 
something called the ``waters of the U.S.,'' which--the 
definition of ``water of the U.S.'' has been abused greatly in 
the last 20 years or so.
    And when we are talking about dredge permits, for example, 
I can think of a really absurd example where there was a new 
bridge being constructed, where some of the pilings had to be 
within a lake. And so they had to move some of the soil to 
build the new uprights. And so that soil, being moved, it was 
now considered a pollutant, even though it is the same soil 
that started out under the water and could have just been moved 
to the side and remained under the water. Instead, it had to be 
hauled away, at who knows what expense and delay.
    So the 402, again, is being abused. And the concern I want 
to bring up here is how it applies to firefighting and what the 
Forest Service has been looking at with requiring a permit to 
use a material for fighting fires--the fire retardant that is 
so extremely important--to be more effective in fighting and 
preventing the spread of fire.
    I mean, again, we have seen it time and again with the 
fires in the West, in my home State of California. In my own 
district, the community of Paradise destroyed, community of 
Greenville destroyed, town of Happy Camp partly destroyed, 
others. And then what has really gotten a lot of people's 
attention, obviously, is what happened in Los Angeles here so 
far, even though it can be known that each year you are going 
to have the Santa Ana winds, you have the brushy hillsides, 
they suspend removal of brush, and that is partly why we are 
where we are in SoCal.
    So, when we talk about the use of fire retardant--that is 
the pink stuff that gets dropped out of the aircraft, the DC-
10s, the helicopters, and all that, when it isn't just straight 
water--we have to work to hang on to that.
    So there was a lawsuit, incredibly. An environmental group 
sued the Forest Service a couple years ago to stop the use of 
that. And then, 2023, the court ruled the Forest Service 
violated the Clean Water Act by failing to get an NPDES permit 
to use it. So the court declined to use an injunction to 
completely stop the use of retardant, but at any moment, it 
could be taken away.
    So for Mr. Hanners: We have never seen this before, where 
the Forest Service had to get this NPDES permit for applying 
the retardant. My understanding is that they make both aerial 
fire retardant and airplanes use it to put out fires. 
Firefighters somehow have to battle through this lawsuit 
process.
    So would you talk to us about this a little bit, Mr. 
Hanners? It would have to come from either EPA or jump through 
the hoops of California, and it can take a very long time. We 
could lose this product if they get their way. Would you please 
comment on that a little bit?
    Mr. Hanners. Certainly. I can't comment on the specifics of 
fire retardants and that policy, the decision you are 
referencing. But I can say, for manufacturers like Nucor across 
America, it is important we have a robust supply chain of fire 
retardants and, I think more importantly, a little bit more 
broadly, we understand the rules of usage of not just fire 
retardants but navigating a permit process or using a new type 
of--or even a well-used type of consumable we may use in our 
process.
    Mr. LaMalfa. Well, if we had to go to straight water, if 
you didn't have this material, which has a sticky factor to it 
and it lasts longer--water just coming out of an aircraft, 
especially in hot weather, once it hits that fire, completely 
dissipates.
    If we don't have this material, how effective are we going 
to be at suppressing or controlling the spread of fire?
    Mr. Hanners. I can't comment on that.
    Mr. LaMalfa. You can't comment on it. All right.
    Should Congress look at clarifying the Clean Water Act to 
ensure these activities continue to be done?
    Mr. Hanners.
    Mr. Hanners. Could you repeat the question?
    Mr. LaMalfa. Should Congress look at clarifying the Clean 
Water Act to ensure these activities, such as aerial 
application, can continue without this onerous permit?
    Mr. Hanners. I can't comment on that.
    Mr. Knott. The Chair recognizes Representative Norton.
    Ms. Norton. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    This is a question for Mr. LaTourette.
    The District of Columbia, the Nation's capital, which I 
represent, has greatly benefited from Federal investments in 
our water infrastructure over the last decade. The DC Water and 
Sewer Authority's multibillion-dollar Clean Rivers Project is 
expected to reduce combined sewer overflows in the District's 
waterways by 96 percent by 2030.
    Mr. LaTourette, how do investments in clean water 
infrastructure improve public health and grow the economy?
    Mr. LaTourette. I believe the question is, how do clean 
water investments improve the environment and the economy?
    Ms. Norton. And grow the economy, yes.
    Mr. LaTourette. So the first thing that I will say is, the 
clean water investments first and foremost protect public 
health and the environment. Our first job is always protecting 
the health of our residents. And when we have discharge into 
waterways that is above any of our State or Federal standards, 
there is a risk of public health exposure. That is what this is 
all based upon.
    So, first and foremost, the investments in clean water are 
helping to protect people's health and their lives.
    And, then, in addition to that value--we have a growing 
economy in the State of New Jersey. We are continuing to build 
out our State with new businesses that rely on sewer service 
expansions. No sewer service, no new multifamily residential 
projects, no new business expansions into AI or other sectors 
that we are focused on. And so those investments are critical, 
right? It is the bones upon which our entire economy is based.
    Ms. Norton. Thank you.
    This is another question for you, Mr. LaTourette.
    The Potomac River provides over 75 percent of the national 
capital region's drinking water and is the only drinking water 
source for DC and parts of northern Virginia, which have just 1 
day of backup water supply, which poses a risk to residents of 
the national capital region, the region's economy, and the 
national security.
    What are the immediate and long-term implications of 
pausing and cutting Federal funding for critical Clean Water 
Act investments?
    Mr. LaTourette. I think that the impact of pausing Federal 
funding, scrutinizing it--whatever the words that are being 
used to describe what is happening--the implications are 
exactly what we are hearing folks talk about from the 
perspective of business and industry about permits holding up 
projects and delaying economic growth. The same is true for 
either an intended, accidental, temporary--whatever we call 
it--pause on Federal funding to the States that are funding 
these water infrastructure projects.
    And we need them now more than ever. I am glad you point 
out the issue of water supply, Congresswoman, because in New 
Jersey we lack, in many places, the continuity that is 
necessary to make sure we have several days of water 
availability were there to be an issue with a major water 
source like you are explaining. And that investment is critical 
to solving that allocation need.
    Ms. Norton. Thank you very much, Mr. LaTourette.
    And I yield back.
    Mr. Knott. Thank you.
    The Chair recognizes Representative Taylor.
    Mr. Taylor. Thank you, Chairman and Ranking Member, for 
holding this hearing today.
    And thank you to our witnesses for their testimony and 
insight.
    With the Ohio River running through my district, I want to 
ensure the Federal Government implements policies that utilize 
the river's resources to support businesses and people while 
creating jobs and economic opportunities which we desperately 
need. I am excited to work with members of this committee to 
pass meaningful legislation and a strong WRDA bill that allows 
the United States to prosper.
    Previous administrations have implemented several 
regulations related to the ``waters of the United States,'' or 
WOTUS. Through redtape and litigation, these WOTUS regulations 
have hindered States, businesses, and energy producers from 
carrying out simple projects.
    Mr. Hasten, in your testimony, you highlighted how the 
Arkansas Electric Cooperative Corporation received a 
streamlined Nationwide Permit 3, which took 9 months to get, 
causing damage to your hydropower plant.
    I am confident that a streamlined permit should not have 
taken 9 months to complete. Based on your expertise, what would 
a normal timeframe have been?
    Mr. Hasten. Thank you, Congressman. I think it depends on 
the work. So, there are different permits. I think in our 
estimation, given that it is an existing structure, everything 
we were asking for was to return it to the design condition.
    The fact that the Arkansas River is an extreme water 
resource, that adds a level of additional scrutiny. So, that 
scrutiny takes some time. But I think in our estimation and 
planning, we would have thought for a nationwide permit to do a 
repair on a weir, which is there to prevent cavitation of--
well, accidental cavitation of the turbines, which if you don't 
take care of that, can affect reliability--we would have 
thought 60 to 90 days, 30 days. It is in that timeframe, 
definitely not 9 months.
    And then the challenge is, when you finally get it--it is 
valid for 5 years, so that is a good thing--but these 
conditions in the river that allow this maintenance, you are 
sort of at the whim of God and nature as to when that will 
occur.
    And if it doesn't happen in the next 5 years, we have to go 
through the same process. You see how we could keep missing the 
boat.
    Mr. Taylor. Got you. With a 9-month approval process for 
maintenance repairs on existing energy projects, what does this 
administration and Congress need to do to eliminate some of 
these burdensome requirements?
    Mr. Hasten. I think definitely continuation of these 
nationwide programs, which the intent of those is streamlined 
reviews. Maybe set some clearly defined timelines on what those 
are, and maybe push us to say, hey, let's do the right thing, 
but let's do it in a more efficient fashion, increase 
coordination between the different agencies, right?
    Instead of it just being a scattergram of confusing 
requirements, as Mr. Hanners said, not sure what you have to 
comply with, something that requires a singular source, a 
singular--somebody's the lead agency, but there is an answer, 
here is the answer, we know what it is, and we know what to do.
    I think also--from Arkansas, so your razorbacks--I 
shouldn't want to put up a transmission line and find a hog 
wallow out there where the wild hogs have been digging around, 
and there is some mud and some water, and then have to wonder 
if that is a ``water of the U.S.''
    But I do have to wonder, and I have to hire consultants to 
come tell me if a pig wallow in the middle of a field is 
``waters of the U.S.''
    And so the Sackett decision, I think, tried to eliminate 
some of that lack of common sense and good environmental 
science, but I think we still have very broad determinations of 
what are ``waters of the U.S.''
    And so in my opinion, adhering to what the Supreme Court 
said and requiring Federal agencies to comply with that, and 
let's get clear definitions: ``waters of the U.S.,'' waterways, 
as I have heard other testimony.
    We want to protect the water, but a mud wallow in the 
middle of a field that stops a transmission line, when I have 
got a huge lithium deposit in Arkansas that I think our Nation 
also wants to get lithium out of the ground, rare earth metals, 
that kind of thing, if it delays those types of projects, you 
are just delaying those types of national priorities.
    And I would say also just better communication and 
transparency so that everybody can see a request is in, here is 
your due date, here is the status, something that is more 
transparent than you just send it and then hope for the best 
and wait for months.
    Mr. Taylor. Thank you very much.
    Chairman, I yield back.
    Mr. Knott. Thank you, sir.
    The Chair recognizes the Representative from Alabama.
    Mr. Figures. Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the 
committee leadership for hosting this--or holding this hearing 
rather, and thank you to all of you guys for being here for 
your time. I know it is not easy to sit here and take all of 
these questions.
    Listen, as I have sat through this hearing, I think 
something is becoming abundantly clear, and that is that there 
is a balance that is needed.
    I have not heard anyone on this panel say that there should 
be no Federal role for permitting.
    I have certainly heard several pieces of testimony that 
indicate that the State needs a more dynamic role and a more--I 
guess, more of a leadership role in the permitting processes.
    So if we can go down the line, about 45 seconds each or so, 
can you talk to me about what you think that appropriate 
balance is between State and Federal involvement starting with 
you, Mr. Singletary?
    Mr. Singletary. Thank you. Like I already said, I think the 
States, I mean, we, this is our homes, right? I mean, we are 
permitting activities, regulating activities that affect us 
directly, affect our citizens directly.
    I think having more control at that State level. Obviously 
there is a role for EPA and for the Federal Government to play 
in environmental protection, but nobody has as much of an 
interest as the States do in protecting their environment, but 
also ensuring that we have prosperity, economic prosperity in a 
State.
    To us, economic prosperity and environmental protection, it 
is all about the well-being of Oklahomans. So I think that is 
where our real interests come.
    So I think that kind of highlighting the State's role in 
implementing these programs, and in some ways, even helping 
design the programs, would be very beneficial.
    Mr. Figures. Thank you.
    Mr. LaTourette.
    Mr. LaTourette. I would say with respect to the Clean Water 
Act permitting programs we have been discussing here today, 
consider the State of New Jersey a case study, if you will.
    We have grown our economy at the same time that we have 
consistently, over years, on a bipartisan basis, exceeded 
minimum Federal standards, at the same time, having 90-day, 
120-day clocks on permitting decisions.
    We can do both. The balance exists. It is a bit of a 
fallacy to suggest that it doesn't.
    Mr. Figures. Mr. Hanners. And I will note that Nucor has a 
facility in Eufaula, Alabama, which is in my district.
    Mr. Hanners. We do, and thanks for your support, 
Congressman. We have hit on a number of these items, but I will 
just summarize. Nationwide permits are very important to us. We 
do a lot of projects that have very minimal impact on the 
environment, and we need that expedited process of being able 
to get that permit nailed down in an efficient manner that is 
understandable and a little bit more responsive, as you have 
heard from the others providing testimony.
    The second thing is pushing more decisionmaking to the 
State side. I hit it again, but I think it is so important. We 
have partners with State authorities, and it works very well 
when we can go to a State, whether it be Alabama, we can talk 
about the project we are trying to accomplish, and we can get 
quick answers, and we can get solutions on how we navigate 
together the permitting process.
    And every time for us, in the States we work in, it has a 
good outcome.
    The last thing I would say is just further limiting 
judicial review. With each of our projects--I shouldn't say 
``each,'' but many--we will gets to the finish line of what we 
expect to be the end of a permit, and we will often have 
midnight entries of a challenge to the permitting process, and 
that dramatically can extend the permitting process.
    And we are not against--we want those challenges to be 
heard, but we do need some better limits on how long those 
challenges can persist without a solution.
    Mr. Figures. Thank you.
    Mr. Hasten.
    Mr. Hasten. Yes, I think clean water and good efficient 
permitting for infrastructure are not mutually exclusive. So if 
you look at--and I heard the questions, the balance, sort of 
like where the Federal role and the State's role in this 
process.
    I see the Federal Government as sort of that higher, 
overarching looking at how the States impact each other and 
so--I grew up in Iowa. So if a polluter in Iowa did something--
now I live in Arkansas--it is going to make its way down the 
Mississippi River to Arkansas.
    So, therefore, I think the Federal Government has a role in 
that because each State would individually--could act in their 
own interest or have different rules.
    So, when it comes to setting the standards, when it comes 
to those types of waterways, when it comes to overarching rules 
that protect those types of bodies of water and ensures good 
compliance among the States, I think the Federal Government has 
the role there.
    I think to the maximum extent that they could then say, 
well, these are the rules, this is what it is, push some of the 
enforcement of those rules and the permitting down to the 
States where they are in those local communities with those 
companies, I think, to the most extent that you could do that, 
I think the process would be more efficient.
    Mr. Figures. Thank you. And one thing I will note about 
you, Mr. Hasten, one decision that cannot be balanced is your 
decision to attend Auburn University instead of the University 
of Alabama. Roll tide.
    Mr. Hasten. War eagle.
    Mr. Figures. Thank you, gentlemen.
    Mr. Knott. The Chair recognizes himself for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Hanners, I want to talk to you, going back to this 
topic of the West Virginia plant project, that the price 
overrun almost eclipsed $1 billion. And for the average person, 
I think that is a very sort of esoteric subject.
    Can you walk me through what led to that, who was the 
source that challenged the permitting process, and how did that 
cost breakdown unfold once it was in motion?
    Mr. Hanners. Certainly. I appreciate the question, Mr. 
Congressman.
    Mr. Knott. I mean, the average person has no idea. You get 
a permit----
    Mr. Hanners [interposing]. Right.
    Mr. Knott [continuing]. And you start to build a project--
--
    Mr. Hanners [interposing]. Right.
    Mr. Knott [continuing]. How in the world could it be 
delayed and then $1 billion added to the cost?
    Mr. Hanners. Right. And when we make a decision to make an 
investment like that, the many millions of dollars, the biggest 
in our company's history, the biggest in West Virginia's 
history, and we are looking forward to the period of--it is 
going to take us 4 years, potentially longer, to build that 
project.
    So once that decision is made to make that investment, we 
started the permitting process immediately.
    And if you are asking for how did that go wrong, or where 
did we run into challenges there, it was really with the Corps 
of Engineers as it relates to the scope of what needed to be 
permitted for that project.
    Mr. Knott. Right.
    Mr. Hanners. It started off with a smaller area. It was 
then broadened months after we got into the project, and that 
required us to include many other studies on a bigger piece 
of----
    Mr. Knott [interrupting]. So you received an initial 
permit, and then the goalposts were moved?
    Mr. Hanners. No. We were in the permitting process when the 
goalpost was brought.
    Mr. Knott. Okay.
    Mr. Hanners. And then that led to your other point about 
the costs you incur because of that. You are executing a 
project like this, and you have to buy equipment that is 
shipping from many locations. And this is massive equipment.
    So now this equipment has to sit in storage, and you are 
paying for storage, you are paying for additional 
transportation.
    You made decisions to employ a team, because you have to 
make those employment decisions very early on in a project to 
start to build out the capabilities you need from a people 
standpoint. So now you have extra people that you are paying 
early, right?
    You have contractors on site that you need, but they are 
not doing productive work yet.
    Mr. Knott. Right.
    Mr. Hanners. So all that cost stacks up to a very big 
impact.
    Mr. Knott. And do you have any type of relief once the Army 
Corps of Engineers starts to move those goalposts, do you have 
any way to challenge it, appeal it, question the reasonableness 
of it?
    Mr. Hanners. No. Very minimal. And the responsiveness is 
frustrating at times. It is very hard to get an answer at 
times. You don't know exactly who to go to or who is the 
authority making what decision within that Corps of Engineers 
specific challenge you are trying to navigate.
    So from a company like ours standpoint, from a 
manufacturer's standpoint, it is very frustrating to navigate 
what the actual challenge is you are trying to tackle.
    Mr. Knott. Right. And in terms of the problem, would you 
say it is the implementor or the actual language within code 
itself that is the problem, or is it----
    Mr. Hanners [interrupting]. Oh, that is a tough question.
    Mr. Knott. Is it the regulator or is it the regulation?
    Mr. Hanners. I think it is a combination of both, but I 
will tell you that we have very different interactions with the 
Corps of Engineers in different areas on the Ohio River even.
    So there is an implementor factor certainly, just an 
understanding of the policy that is applied differently from 
this area to this area.
    Mr. Knott. Right.
    Mr. Hanners. But that can also be, I think there is a need 
to tighten up some of that language so that we understand the 
rules, the implementor has a very clear understanding of the 
boundaries, and I think that best is answered by pushing more 
authority to the State in those instances.
    Mr. Knott. Sure. What deference or what consideration does 
the Army Corps in this West Virginia project, what did they 
give to the billion-dollar increase in cost?
    Mr. Hanners. I don't know that they--any. I----
    Mr. Knott [interrupting]. No consideration?
    Mr. Hanners. Very little recognition.
    Mr. Knott. No consideration. So is it also improper for me 
to conclude or to assume that this project would have led to a 
more efficient, cleaner operation, more modernized technology, 
et cetera? Is that correct?
    Mr. Hanners. Absolutely.
    Mr. Knott. And so with all of these delays and increased 
costs, they are preventing a more modern operation from coming 
online?
    Mr. Hanners. Absolutely.
    Mr. Knott. So there is a perverse incentive here.
    Mr. Hanners. Absolutely.
    Mr. Knott. They are using ``waters of the United States'' 
to slow the bringing of a new project online?
    Mr. Hanners. I would absolutely agree with that.
    Mr. Knott. And that is not just unique to West Virginia and 
your one project, correct?
    Mr. Hanners. That is correct.
    Mr. Knott. Okay.
    Sir, Mr. Hasten, in terms of one of the answers you gave 
earlier, you said that it takes 5 years, and what stuck out to 
me is, to build a simple, natural gas powerplant.
    If there was more regulatory certainty, less judicial 
review vagueness, and the ability just to construct it with a 
front-end permit, and that gave you a smooth sail, how long 
should the construction, start to finish, take?
    Mr. Hasten. If you streamlined the permitting process, you 
just look at what is the time right now until you get your 
permit--and each project is different, so it is hard to give 
you an exact number of months.
    Mr. Knott. Yes.
    Mr. Hasten. But it would translate directly into, 
reductions in that timeline are going to reduce the overall 
time, right?
    The delays that are most costly are when you think you have 
got it all laid out, and then as Mr. Hanners said, you have 
purchased very expensive equipment, and then when the permit 
doesn't come through or those delays come in, then there are 
huge carrying costs on these projects.
    So any efficiency we can do there, and if we can tighten 
timelines and not lower the standard, but, like, why look at 
the same thing three times, let's do it one time----
    Mr. Knott [interposing]. Yes.
    Mr. Hasten [continuing]. That type of thing, that will 
translate into savings in projects, and we will be able to get 
infrastructure in service, online faster.
    Mr. Knott. Great. Thank you.
    The Chair recognizes Representative DeSaulnier.
    Mr. DeSaulnier. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to thank 
the witnesses as well.
    I represent a district in northern California that 
represents most of the San Joaquin-Sacramento Delta, the 
largest estuary west of the Mississippi. It provides over half 
of the river flow in the State of California.
    Our current President is becoming familiar with these 
dynamics. I have represented it for most of the last 35 years 
at the local, State, and Federal level.
    Mr. LaMalfa is not here, but we negotiated a partnership 
when we were in the legislature that would help change the 
dynamic. So the first time in the history of the State, we 
would require permitting by our ag industry because their 
aquifers were collapsing.
    The San Joaquin Valley creates one-third of the vegetables 
and fruit in the United States. It is an enormous agricultural 
and economic benefit. So getting this balance, from that 
perspective, has always been interesting.
    In 1972, if my memory serves me, when the Clean Water Act 
was passed, one of the premier, in my view, pieces of 
legislation environmentally--and it should be businesswise as 
well--Richard Nixon was President. It passed out of the Senate 
with no ``no'' votes. It passed out of the House with, I think 
11 ``no'' votes.
    And then President Nixon vetoed it, and they overrode the 
veto with huge bipartisan support.
    In that context, it seems as if, and for all of you, but I 
am going to start with Mr. LaTourette and his experience 
specifically about the delta smelt and how all of that is 
intertwined in our instance, but in other instances in 
environmental protection.
    But it does seem as if we could have improved our 
efficiency to the point of--and to the chair's point--of doing 
more of this upfront.
    Litigation is not an effective way, I don't think, as a 
progressive Member of Congress, to provide oversight. So to the 
degree we can do it, it is more efficient.
    And I am somewhat frustrated sometimes that we haven't made 
it more efficient for everyone. Although I think we have made 
great strides, in particular in California.
    The California Water Project, one of the great engineering 
feats in American history, started by Governor Pat Brown, 
allowed for all of this.
    So in that context, the recent news, having dealt with, the 
Endangered Species Act and the delta smelt specifically, it is 
the canary in the coal mine as a lot of these circumstances 
are.
    And still having the balance of when to hold water, when to 
release water, in an environment that is changing every year 
because of climate change and the relationship to the Sierra 
snowpack in our case.
    So could you speak, Mr. LaTourette, in your experience, 
that dynamic where it is not just about, in our instance, the 
delta smelt. It is the canary in the coal mine that they 
represent, about the health of the largest estuary west of the 
Mississippi, which obviously has context of clean drinking 
water and the supply of clean drinking water for the country.
    So how do we meet that balance but also in the context of, 
it is, in this case, it is not just about that particular 
species--although it is important in and of itself--but it is 
more the impact that it represents to the health of the delta 
in this case?
    Mr. LaTourette. Can you just say that last part one more 
time, maybe a little closer to the mic? I want to make sure I 
am getting it. I think it is an Endangered Species Act 
question.
    Mr. DeSaulnier. Well, no, more generally, the health--the 
environmental health of someplace like the San Joaquin Delta is 
important to clean water, that if you are not balancing all of 
this, you are going to have to spend more money on clean water 
rather than less.
    Mr. LaTourette. So----
    Mr. DeSaulnier [interrupting]. So, the environmental 
balance that benefits everybody.
    Mr. LaTourette. So, I think it is important, as I said to 
the Congresswoman before, that we look at this issue a bit more 
holistically, right, because any one project that is getting 
built, and we are concerned about a permit from under the NWP 
or a permit under the Clean Air Act for particulate matter, 
there are multiple things going on in the development of any 
one site, that all bear on the greater environmental impact in 
that region.
    And so I think we have to look at the permitting matters 
across the board, and the way that we do that, to promote 
coordinated environmental governance that is conscious of the 
air issue, the land issue, the water issue, across the board, 
is that we have a mechanism inside our State environment agency 
that brings every internal State agency and the Federal 
agencies that touch that, to one table.
    It is a service that we provide to the regulated community, 
because any one regulated actor may not see the greater context 
of environmental health. If we bring everyone around the table, 
we can help share that information so that we are doing the 
best to protect the environmental health across all media.
    Mr. DeSaulnier. Thank you.
    Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Always willing to work with you 
and others to try to make the system work more efficiently.
    Mr. Knott. Thank you, sir.
    The Chair recognizes Mr. Perry for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Perry. I thank the chair and thank the witnesses. This 
to me falls into the category of ``No good deed goes 
unpunished.''
    To me, the radical left has been so hell-bent at stopping 
traditional energy power and projects, the things that provide 
us with nearly every modern, imaginable good that we have, and 
the abuse of the system that we have, to do their bidding.
    That is what I have seen over the course of my time here. 
The radical left's weaponization, particularly of section 401 
of the Clean Water Act, is a perfect example of the anti-energy 
mindset.
    It is actually kind of like an anti-civilization mindset 
taking hold and being used to attack projects for which they 
disagree. And as many have stated here along the line, you get 
a permit, you think you are going to work, and then it is 
actually a strategy to let you build out as much of the project 
as possible and stop it at the end to chill investment for 
future projects, which is just mind-numbing.
    I will give you a couple examples. The State of Washington 
used section 401 to kill the Millennium Bulk Terminal Project 
due to nonlisted adverse impacts.
    Now, they might have all been valid adverse impacts. 
Unfortunately, none of them related to water quality. And, 
again, I will remind everybody, this is section 401.
    The State of New York used section 401 to deny a pipeline 
project in Raritan Bay due to the potential greenhouse gas 
emissions from the project.
    Well, greenhouse gas emissions are unrelated to water 
quality, right? This is 401. And, oh, by the way, like, I get 
that they don't love a pipeline. I am not sure I want a 
pipeline in my backyard, either.
    But so now we are going to put the fuel on a train, and 
they are not going to like that, either. So then we are going 
to buy the fuel from Russia or some other country that hates 
us. This is a brilliant plan.
    The State of Oregon killed an LNG export terminal using 
section 401 process.
    The State of New Jersey denied a water quality permit for a 
proposed pipeline project, and they actually cited water 
quality issues. However, the environmental groups that pushed 
the State into action made it very clear they were just simply 
in opposition to traditional energy projects.
    Fortunately, during the first term of the Trump 
administration, it was identified, this weaponization, for what 
it is, and took action to limit the scope of the 401 to actual 
water quality issues.
    And I would cite the gentlelady from Ohio, Representative 
Sykes. I was alive when the Cuyahoga River was on fire.
    None of us on this committee, probably none of you in the 
audience, agree with a pipe coming out of a factory dumping 
into a river and filling it with a bunch of stuff that is 
flammable and killing--like, none of us agree with that, but 
that was 50 years ago. We don't do that anymore. And to use 401 
to stop legitimate projects for everything other than what 401 
is used for, like, has to be recognized, acknowledged, and 
something has to be done about it.
    It is vital that Congress acts to make the change 
permanent. Last Congress, we took action to do so by passing 
the Water Quality Certification and Energy Project Improvement 
Act through this committee and included it in H.R. 1.
    And it has got to be brought back up and taken across the 
finish line. It is an important step to stop the radical 
assault on traditional energy projects.
    Mr. LaTourette, your Governor Murphy is appointed alternate 
commissioner to the Delaware River Basin Commission. God bless 
him.
    The DRBC, as we know it, is under immense pressure from 
environmental groups that receive significant Federal funding. 
It is not just paid for by people out in the community that 
say, well, we want it to--it is paid for by tax dollars, to 
move forward with a ban on hydraulic fracturing. And 
Pennsylvania has got a lot of resources, so does New York.
    But in doing so, the commission denied Pennsylvanians in 
the river basin the ability to access the mineral rights that 
they themselves own, the underpinning of the United States of 
America and free society itself. They can't extract it but for 
the commission's actions.
    It has also denied the Nation and the world a critical 
source of natural gas at a time of high price and significant 
volatility in the market, and, again, we turn to Russia, 
because of things like the Jones Act and these type of things, 
to buy gas for New England.
    And I don't want to be paying those rates, but I don't 
think those people do either, but we can't get--Pennsylvania 
can't get its product to market because of this kind of stuff.
    The DRBC is an unelected group of bureaucrats. Legislation 
that I have offered, the DRILL Now Act, will be reintroduced 
this week, and addresses the misguided power grab by the DRBC.
    This river basin commission--and there are three of them in 
Pennsylvania that cover the State--impose more stringent 
regulations than the duly elected representatives of the 
Commonwealth.
    That kind of stuff has got to end, somebody has to be 
accountable, and it can't be people at these commissions that 
aren't elected and impose these kind of--these regulatory 
prohibitions on the citizenry and our country.
    I yield the balance.
    Mr. Knott. Thank you, Representative Perry. The gentleman 
yields back.
    Are there any further questions from any members of the 
subcommittee who have not yet been recognized?
    Seeing none, I ask for unanimous consent to enter into the 
record the following letters related to the Clean Water Act 
permitting: From the Industrial Energy Consumers of America, 
dated February 10th, 2025; the Interstate Natural Gas 
Association of America, dated February 10th, 2025; American 
Society of Civil Engineers, dated February 11th, 2025; the 
Western States Water Council, dated February 11th, 2025; the 
Waters Advocacy Coalition, dated February 11th, 2025; the 
Louisiana Department of Environmental Quality, dated February 
11th, 2025; and lastly, the Associated Builders and 
Contractors, dated February 11th, 2025.
    Without objection, so ordered.
    [Mr. Knott's submissions for the record are on pages 65-
79.]
    Mr. Knott. This concludes our hearing for today. I would 
like to thank each one of the witnesses for your time and your 
testimony. The subcommittee stands adjourned. Thank you.
    [Whereupon, at 12:31 p.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.]


                       Submissions for the Record

                              ----------                              

Letter of February 10, 2025,  from Paul N. Cicio,  President and Chief
 Executive Officer,  Industrial Energy  Consumers of  America, to Hon. 
 Mike Collins, Chairman, and Hon. Frederica S. Wilson, Ranking Member,
 Subcommittee on  Water Resources and  Environment,  Submitted for the
 Record by Hon. Brad Knott
                                                 February 10, 2025.
The Honorable Mike Collins,
Chairman,
House Subcommittee on Water Resources and Environment, Washington, DC 
        20515.
The Honorable Frederica S. Wilson,
Ranking Member,
House Subcommittee on Water Resources and Environment, Washington, DC 
        20515.

Re: Comments for the Record on Hearing ``America Builds: Clean Water 
Act Permitting and Project Delivery''--44 Natural Gas Pipelines Issue 
Orders to Manufacturers to Reduce/Curtail Use of Natural Gas Due to 
Inadequate Pipeline Capacity

    Dear Chairman Collins and Ranking Member Wilson:
    The manufacturing sector's economic growth has never before faced 
such a growing crisis as we are faced with today, due to inadequate 
natural gas pipeline capacity. The recent protracted cold weather has 
once again shown the fragility of our nation's natural gas system as 44 
pipelines (see Figure 1) across the country have issued either 
operational flow orders (OFOs) or curtailment notices to manufacturing 
companies to reduce demand in order to service the needs of homeowners, 
power companies, and LNG exports. When there is inadequate pipeline 
capacity, manufacturing companies are always the first to be curtailed. 
Curtailment can cost millions of dollars per day, disrupt operations, 
damage equipment, impact supply chains for consumer, industrial, and 
national defense products.
    Some manufacturers saw their natural gas prices increase 
twentyfold. If we do not reduce our natural gas consumption after 
notice has been given to do so from the pipeline, the pipeline can 
penalize the manufacturer by charging higher prices ranging from $40 
per MMBtu to $120 per MMBtu.
    One hundred percent of IECA member companies are from the 
manufacturing sector and their competitiveness is dependent upon the 
affordability of natural gas and electricity. Natural gas is used as a 
fuel and feedstock. The U.S. manufacturing sector consumes 26 percent 
of the U.S. natural gas and 25 percent of U.S. electricity. 
Manufacturing is the only sector that operates 24/7, which requires 
reliability of natural gas and electricity.
    Weather in December and January challenged the pipeline supply 
chain of interstate, intrastate, and Local Distribution Systems (LDCs). 
Pipeline warnings/notices to reduce or curtail supply are now in both 
winter and summer, more frequent and severe due to higher demand for 
electricity generation and LNG exports. Increasing electrical demand by 
data centers, crypto currency, and the electrification of the economy 
are all intensifying the problem. Despite increased demand, the U.S. 
Energy Information Administration (EIA) found that the U.S. added 
record low interstate natural gas pipeline capacity in 2022 and 2023.
    The manufacturing sector is especially vulnerable along the entire 
East Coast from Georgia to New York, which is supplied by the Transco 
Pipeline. There is zero availability of firm natural gas pipeline 
transportation that is needed to expand existing facilities or invest 
in new ones. Until there is an increase in pipeline capacity, we urge 
electric utilities to not prematurely shut down coal-fired electric 
generating units. IECA sent a letter to the Federal Energy Regulatory 
Commission (FERC) on February 4 urging them to address this issue by 
holding a Technical Conference.\1\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \1\ IECA Requests FERC Hold Technical Conference--No Firm Pipeline 
Capacity Available on East Coast for Manufacturing, https://www.ieca-
us.org/wp-content/uploads/02.04.25_Request-for-FERC-Technical-
Conference.pdf
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    We ask Congress to take swift, decisive action to address this 
urgent problem. First, we urge Congress to quickly advance energy 
permitting legislation, which would expedite the expansion of our 
nation's natural gas pipeline network to serve our nation's growing 
demand.\2\ Second, we urge this Subcommittee to hold a hearing to allow 
manufacturing companies to explain the gravity of the impacts of 
inadequate natural gas pipeline supply.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \2\ 49 Consumer Organizations Support Permitting Reform to Build 
More Natural Gas Pipelines, https://www.ieca-us.org/wp-content/uploads/
07.29.24_Senate_House-NG-Pipeline-Coalition-Letter_FINAL.pdf
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
            Sincerely,
                                             Paul N. Cicio,
President and Chief Executive Officer, Industrial Energy Consumers 
                                                        of America.

cc:  House Committee on Transportation & Infrastructure
                               __________

The Industrial Energy Consumers of America is a nonpartisan association 
of leading manufacturing companies with $1.3 trillion in annual sales, 
over 12,000 facilities nationwide, and with more than 1.9 million 
employees. One hundred percent of IECA members are manufacturing 
companies whose competitiveness is largely determined by the cost and 
reliability of natural gas and electricity. IECA's sole mission is to 
reduce and avoid energy costs and increase energy reliability through 
advocacy in Congress and regulatory agencies, such as the Federal 
Energy Regulatory Commission. IECA membership represents a diverse set 
of industries including chemicals, plastics, steel, iron ore, aluminum, 
paper, food processing, fertilizer, insulation, glass, industrial 
gases, pharmaceutical, consumer goods, building products, automotive, 
independent oil refining, and cement.

                                Figure 1
------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
1.........................................  Atlanta Gas Light
2.........................................  Acadian: LA
3.........................................  Alabama Tennessee Gas
                                             Pipeline
4.........................................  ANR Pipeline Company
5.........................................  Atmos Energy: VA
6.........................................  Blackhills Pipeline
7.........................................  Columbia Gas Transmission
                                             Company: MD, VA, PA, WV
8.........................................  Danville Utilities
9.........................................  Dominion Energy: SC
10........................................  Duke Energy: OH, KY, SC, NC
11........................................  East Tennessee Natural Gas
12........................................  Eastern Gas Pipeline
13........................................  Enable Gas Transmission, LLC
14........................................  Enterprise Acadian
15........................................  Enterprise Intrastate
16........................................  Enterprise Texas Pipeline
17........................................  Houston Pipeline
18........................................  Kinder Morgan Texas
19........................................  Liberty Utilities
20........................................  Louisville Gas and Electric
21........................................  Michigan Gas Utilities
22........................................  MoGas Pipeline
23........................................  National Grid
24........................................  Natural Gas Pipeline (NGPL)
25........................................  NIPSCO
26........................................  Northern Border Ventura
27........................................  Northern Natural Gas: SD
28........................................  Northwest Pipeline
29........................................  North Shore Gas
30........................................  Ozark Gas Transmission
31........................................  Panhandle Eastern Pipe Line
                                             Company
32........................................  PECO, An Excelon Company
33........................................  Peoples Gas
34........................................  Piedmont Natural Gas: TN,
                                             NC, SC
35........................................  Public Service Company of
                                             Colorado
36........................................  Southern Natural Gas Company
37........................................  Spire MoGas Pipeline
38........................................  Summit Natural Gas
39........................................  Tennessee Gas Pipeline
                                             Company
40........................................  Texas Eastern Transmission
                                             Pipeline: TX, TN
41........................................  Texas Gas Service
42........................................  Transco: VA, NC, VA, SC, GA
43........................................  UGI Pipeline
44........................................  Until, Maine Natural Gas
------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                 
                                 
 Letter of February 10, 2025, from Amy Andryszak, President and Chief Ex-
  ecutive Officer, Interstate Natural Gas Association of America, to Hon.
  Mike Collins, Chairman,  and Hon. Frederica S. Wilson,  Ranking Member,
  Subcommittee  on  Water Resources and  Environment,  Submitted for  the
  Record by Hon. Brad Knott
                                                 February 10, 2025.
The Honorable Mike Collins,
Chairman,
Water Resources and Environment Subcommittee, United States House of 
        Representatives, 2165 Rayburn House Office Building, 
        Washington, DC 20515.
The Honorable Frederica Wilson,
Ranking Member,
Water Resources and Environment Subcommittee, United States House of 
        Representatives, 2165 Rayburn House Office Building, 
        Washington, DC 20515.
    Dear Chairman Collins and Ranking Member Wilson,
    I am writing to offer the views of the Interstate Natural Gas 
Association of America (INGAA) for the Subcommittee's America Builds: 
Clean Water Act Permitting and Project Delivery hearing.
    INGAA is a trade association representing the interstate natural 
gas pipeline and storage industry. Our members transport most of the 
natural gas consumed in the United States through a network of 
approximately 200,000 miles of interstate transmission pipelines. These 
large capacity, critical infrastructure systems are analogous to the 
interstate highway system and span multiple states or regions. Our 
industry delivers natural gas to end users such as local distribution 
companies, electricity generators, industrial manufacturers, and LNG 
export facilities.
    For more than a decade, the shale revolution has gifted our country 
with abundant natural gas supplies, which has elevated the need for 
additional infrastructure to move gas around the country. Pipelines 
make it possible to deliver North America's abundant natural gas 
reserves to fuel our homes, businesses, and the American economy.
    Natural gas infrastructure is inherently reliable, built in 
compliance with exact safety regulations and engineering standards. 
According to the Pipeline and Hazardous Materials Administration 
(PHMSA), these linear infrastructure networks are not only the most 
efficient but also the safest way to transport large energy quantities 
like natural gas and petroleum products with over 99.999% of all 
pipeline deliveries being made safely each year. The North American 
Electric Reliability Corporation indicated in its recent summer 
assessment that ``natural gas supply and infrastructure is vitally 
important to electric grid reliability, particularly as variable energy 
resources satisfy more of our energy needs . . . '' Moreover, the 
Energy Information Administration (EIA) indicated that natural gas was 
the primary source--roughly 43 percent--of U.S. utility-scale 
electricity generation in 2023 and projected last month in its short-
term energy outlook that domestic natural gas demand will outpace 
supply over the next two years.
    The United States needs a modernized network of natural gas 
infrastructure to meet its energy, economic and security goals. 
Although enactment of the Fiscal Responsibility Act (FRA) contained 
incremental permitting improvements, broad reforms to the Clean Water 
Act (CWA) and other statutes are needed to address the fact that 
current permitting processes to site and approve new and expanded 
natural gas and liquid energy infrastructure remain slow, inefficient 
and overly litigated. These ongoing challenges hamper access to 
domestic natural gas resources and other fuel sources, raise energy 
costs in certain regions, and in the worst cases, limit access to 
energy and create reliability issues during periods of extreme weather.
    INGAA applauds the Subcommittee's interest in potentially advancing 
legislative measures that would expedite energy infrastructure 
permitting and asks that you consider the following CWA recommendations 
of importance to the natural gas transmission pipeline industry.

       CWA Section 401 energy infrastructure permitting reforms.

    Section 401 of the Clean Water Act (CWA) adopts a ``cooperative 
federalism'' approach to regulation by giving each State or Tribe a 
significant, carefully defined role in regulating discharges into 
waters of the United States (WOTUS). If an activity authorized by a 
federal agency would result in a discharge into WOTUS, the State or 
Tribe where the discharge occurs must certify that the discharge 
complies with CWA Sections 301, 302, 303, and 307. The federal agency 
may not authorize the activity unless the State or Tribe certifies the 
discharge's compliance, certifies compliance subject to specific 
conditions, or waives its right to certify. Section 401 requires the 
State or Tribe to determine compliance within a ``reasonable period of 
time,'' not to exceed one year.
    Interstate natural gas pipeline projects frequently cross WOTUS, so 
INGAA members' projects often require a Section 401 certification, 
which has broad applicability to a variety of infrastructure projects, 
including interstate natural gas pipelines, roads, electric 
transmission, hydroelectric transmission and flood control. Based on 
our experience, Section 401 works well in most States. Certain States 
have misused Section 401, however, to burden, delay, or outright veto 
critical energy infrastructure projects, namely natural gas pipelines. 
In so doing, those States disrupt the role of federal and state 
authorities, undermine the actions of other States and damage 
cooperative federalism.
    Misuse of Section 401 has taken many forms. For example, States 
have denied certification for policy reasons other than protection of 
water quality. In addition, States have disregarded or circumvented the 
one-year time limit on review. Although pipelines can seek judicial 
review of a State's certification decision, projects cannot move 
forward while the pipeline appeals a denial, and the delay and 
uncertainty associated with litigation make it costly and time 
consuming. Indeed, judicial review of Section 401 certifications 
presents an additional obstacle to infrastructure development and in 
some instances, led to cancellation of projects even when the project 
developer was successful in the courts.
    Actions by the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) under the 
prior Administration compounded the uncertainty and risk created by 
States' misuse of Section 401. In 2023, the EPA rescinded a rule 
promulgated by the agency in 2020 \1\ to address misuse of Section 401 
and replaced the rule with one that significantly expands the scope of 
Section 401 review to the activity as a whole rather than discharges 
from the point of discharge. This authorizes the certifying authority 
to potentially take an overly expansive analysis of the water quality 
impacts caused by other aspects of the project potentially unrelated to 
the discharge that triggered the certification requirement. INGAA 
maintains that the 2023 rule \2\ exceeds EPA's authority under the CWA 
and affords States and Tribes significantly greater latitude to 
potentially deny Section 401 certifications to block essential 
infrastructure development on policy grounds unrelated to water 
quality.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \1\ https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2020/07/13/2020-
12081/clean-water-act-section-401-certification-rule
    \2\ https://www.epa.gov/cwa-401/final-2023-cwa-section-401-water-
quality-certification-improvement-rule
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    INGAA members need regulatory certainty--consistent, legally sound 
``rules of the road''--to invest hundreds of millions of dollars in 
critical infrastructure projects. Persistent misuse of Section 401 and 
regulations that change wildly every few years undermine this 
certainty. We urge Congress to act to ensure that States adhere to 
their carefully defined role in the CWA's cooperative federalism 
framework and that a reasonable regulatory framework can survive longer 
than four years. Actions to clarify the scope of Section 401 review are 
of paramount importance. Specifically, we ask Congress to restore 
cooperative federalism by clarifying that:
      Section 401 authorizes States to review discharges into 
WOTUS, not the entire activity subject to federal authorization 
(including activities which occur in other states). This clarification 
would help ensure that states act within appropriate limits of their 
Section 401 authority and confirm compliance with federally approved 
water quality criteria as intended by the underlying statute.

      States must base their certification decisions on whether 
the discharge complies with the enumerated sections of the CWA, not 
compliance with other state laws or policies.

    INGAA also urges Congress to address judicial review of Section 401 
certification decisions so that there is an effective, efficient, and 
predictable process for appealing State determinations.

       CWA Section 404 energy infrastructure permitting reforms.
       
    Section 404 of the Clean Water Act (CWA) prohibits the discharge of 
dredged or fill material into waters of the United States, including 
wetlands, without authorization from the Secretary of the Army, acting 
through the Corps of Engineers. There are two types of authorization 
under Section 404.
    First, Section 404 requires an individual permit for discharges 
with potentially significant impacts. The agency or a State or Tribe 
acting through a Corps-approved program--evaluates applications for an 
individual permit using a ``public interest'' standard and 
environmental criteria published by the EPA.
    Second, Section 404 allows the Corps to establish a general permit 
that authorizes discharges that have minimal adverse environmental 
effects. The general permit reduces the length of review for discharges 
that have minimal effects and meet the strict set of conditions 
established in the permit. The CWA provides an additional limit on the 
use of a general permit: a district or division commander can revoke 
the nationwide permit in a state or other geographic region.
    The Corps' most recent set of general permits \3\ (Nationwide 
Permits (NWPs))--became effective on February 25, 2022, and will expire 
on March 14, 2026. The NWPs authorize discharges associated with a 
variety of industrial projects so long as those discharges meet each 
NWP's stringent criteria. For example, developers must notify the Corps 
of certain planned projects prior to construction, which provides the 
Corps an opportunity to determine the project's eligibility for the NWP 
program.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \3\ https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2021/12/27/2021-
27441/reissuance-and-modification-of-nationwide-permits
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    The Corps must maintain its NWP program to meet the United States' 
energy needs. To complete work on the pipeline network to deliver 
natural gas securely, reliably, and affordably, operators specifically 
rely on NWP 12, which authorizes discharges from utility lines crossing 
waters of the United States, including natural gas pipelines. Without 
NWP 12, it would be extremely difficult to complete myriad maintenance, 
repair, and modernization projects that must be done quickly to 
preserve the integrity and safety of our systems, including projects 
required by the Pipeline Safety Act and the Pipeline and Hazardous 
Materials Safety Administration (PHMSA).
    Despite the agency's well-established, effective oversight process, 
the NWP program has been targeted in recent years with various 
stakeholders filing legal challenges and urging the prior 
Administration to revoke NWPs to hinder essential linear infrastructure 
projects. In 2022, the Administration launched an inquiry into whether 
``modifications or other future actions'' with respect to NWP 12 were 
appropriate, creating significant uncertainty as to whether the Corps 
would maintain an effective NWP program moving forward.
    Like planning under Section 401 under the Clean Water Act, 
pipelines need to know the ``rules of the road'' when investing 
substantial time and capital into the planning and completion of 
critical work their networks. We cannot afford regulatory actions that 
cast doubt on the availability of the NWP program, which burdens the 
agency by increasing the need for individual permits for activities 
that have only minimal impact, and delays service to the public.
    INGAA urges the Corps to reissue all NWPs prior to their scheduled 
expiration in March 2026. We also support additional action by Congress 
to protect the NWP program and promote regulatory certainty. Introduced 
in the 118th Congress, H.R. 7073, Creating Confidence in Clean Water 
Permitting Act, would extend the length of the Corps' general permits 
from five years to ten years. Additionally, H.R. 7023 would clearly 
define discharge activities within the Corps' CWA Section 404 
authority. These commonsense changes would provide additional certainty 
for developers of all types of linear infrastructure, not just natural 
gas pipelines.
    Thank you for your attention to these important matters. INGAA 
stands ready to work in a bipartisan manner to enact these CWA reforms 
and other durable permitting process improvements that enable 
development of the energy infrastructure to continue delivering the 
benefits of natural gas to the American people.
            Sincerely,
                                             Amy Andryszak,
    President & CEO, Interstate Natural Gas Association of America.

                                 
                                 
Statement of the American Society of Civil Engineers, Submitted for the 
                       Record by Hon. Brad Knott
                       
                              Introduction
                              
    The American Society of Civil Engineers (ASCE) appreciates the 
opportunity to submit a statement to the House Committee on 
Transportation & Infrastructure's Subcommittee on Water Resources and 
Environment for its hearing on permitting regulations under the Clean 
Water Act. We are grateful to Subcommittee Chairman Mike Collins and 
Ranking Member Frederica Wilson for holding this hearing on this 
important subject.
    Founded in 1852, ASCE is the nation's oldest civil engineering 
society. ASCE represents more than 160,000 members of the civil 
engineering profession in 177 countries. As the professionals who 
design, construct, and maintain critical aspects of the United States' 
water resources, ASCE welcomes the opportunity to offer perspective on 
the important subject of Clean Water Act permitting and project 
delivery.

ASCE's 2021 Infrastructure Report Card
    Our nation's infrastructure is the foundation that connects our 
businesses, communities, and people. It serves as the backbone of the 
U.S. economy, and is critical to the nation's public health, safety, 
and welfare. Every four years, ASCE publishes the Report Card for 
America's Infrastructure, which grades 17 major infrastructure 
categories using a simple A to F school report card format. In 2021, 
the nation's clean water infrastructure, comprised of stormwater and 
wastewater infrastructure, received grades of D and D+ respectively. On 
March 25, 2025, ASCE will release the 2025 Report Card for America's 
Infrastructure. The 2025 Report Card will provide an updated snapshot 
of the nation's stormwater and wastewater infrastructure and note areas 
of progress and ongoing challenges that have been observed over the 
past four years.

Reauthorization of the Clean Water Act
    For more than 50 years, the Clean Water Act (CWA) has provided a 
foundation for ensuring that the nation's waterways are fishable and 
swimmable. Since this landmark law was passed in 1972, the CWA has 
prevented 700 billion pounds of pollutants from contaminating the 
nation's waterways annually, significantly slowed the loss of America's 
wetlands, and has helped generate billions of dollars in economic 
activity through industries such as fishing and recreation.\1\ Under 
the CWA, critical tools like the Clean Water State Revolving Fund 
(CWSRF) program were created and have provided billions of dollars to 
states and communities to support low interest loans for upgrades to 
wastewater and stormwater infrastructure. Continued support for the CWA 
is critical to ensuring that America's waterways are free of pollution 
and do not pose health and safety risks to the public.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \1\ https://www.nwf.org/-/media/Documents/PDFs/NWF-Reports/2022/
Five-Decades-of-Clean-Water1
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    ASCE recognizes the critical importance of providing proper balance 
between timely permitting for infrastructure projects and mitigating 
and preventing harmful effects to the environment. ASCE strongly 
believes that reforms to permitting processes should focus on using the 
best available science to make objective determinations on 
environmental impacts while streamlining permitting and approval 
decisions to reduce delays to critical infrastructure projects.
    To better protect the health and beneficial use of the nation's 
waters, ASCE supports and encourages the reauthorization of the Clean 
Water Act.\2\ Amended several times since becoming law in 1972, the CWA 
has not received Congressional reauthorization since the Water Quality 
Act of 1987, which included, among other provisions, the creation of 
the CWSRF to support low interest financing for stormwater and 
wastewater infrastructure capitalization projects.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \2\ https://www.asce.org/advocacy/policy-statements/ps420---clean-
water-act-reauthorization
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    Reauthorization would provide more consistent access to federal 
appropriations, creating greater certainty and planning ability for 
infrastructure development. It should also take a stronger approach to 
non-point source pollution, a leading cause of water quality 
challenges, and incorporate a watershed approach which recognizes the 
connectivity of water systems across geographical and political 
boundaries and brings a wide range of voices and perspectives to the 
table.
    ASCE also encourages any CWA reauthorization be accompanied by the 
development of nationwide best practices supporting sustainable and 
consistent approaches to protection of waters which are also mindful of 
the need to minimize timing of regulatory processing and associated 
costs.

Addressing Non-Point Source Pollution
    One of the most important functions of the Clean Water Act is the 
prevention and mitigation of point-source pollution in the nation's 
waters. Point-source pollution is pollution originating from a distinct 
and identifiable source, such as a pipe leak, runoff from sewage 
treatment plants, and discharge from factories and other industrial 
facilities. However, ASCE supports the development of more aggressive 
efforts under the CWA to address non-point source pollution, which is 
pollution originating from more discrete sources such as urban and road 
runoff, agricultural activity, and mine runoff. Non-point source 
pollution has been identified as the leading remaining contributor to 
water quality issues, creating harmful effects for drinking water 
supplies, fisheries, and recreation.\3\ ASCE supports efforts to 
prevent and mitigate non-point source pollution through a variety of 
methods. These include the development of regulations and mechanisms 
requiring mitigation of the impacts of non-point source pollution, 
increased funding for research into the impact of non-point source 
pollution on surface water and groundwater, and improving sustainable 
best management practices.\4\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \3\ https://www.epa.gov/nps/basic-information-about-nonpoint-
source-nps-pollution
    \4\ https://www.asce.org/advocacy/policy-statements/ps461---non-
point-source-pollution
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Watershed Approach
    ASCE strongly believes that the most effective way to protect the 
nation's waters, including the mitigation of non-point source 
pollution, is through a watershed approach. This approach focuses on 
water quality and quantity and considers the connectivity of all 
systems. It acknowledges the overlapping nature of systems which cross 
political and geographical lines and brings all stakeholders from the 
public and private sectors to the table. This also allows for the 
incorporation of local and regional viewpoints into planning and 
decision-making processes.\5\
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    \5\ https://www.asce.org/advocacy/policy-statements/ps422---
watershed-management
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Conclusion
    ASCE greatly appreciates the opportunity to provide the Water 
Resources and Environment Subcommittee with comments on this critical 
issue. One of ASCE's primary policy goals is supporting proper balance 
between timely and efficient infrastructure development as well as 
reducing and mitigating harmful effects to the environment. We look 
forward to working with the committee on how best to address these 
issues throughout the 119th Congress.

                                 
                                 
Statement of the Western States Water Council, Submitted for the Record 
                           by Hon. Brad Knott
                           
    On behalf of the Western States Water Council (WSWC), we wish to 
express our appreciation for the opportunity to provide written 
testimony on Clean Water Act (CWA) Permitting and Project Delivery. The 
WSWC is a bi-partisan government entity created by Western Governors in 
1965, representing eighteen states. Our members are appointed by and 
serve at the pleasure of their respective Governors, advising them on 
water policy issues. Our mission is to ensure that the West has an 
adequate, secure, and sustainable supply of water of suitable quality 
to meet its diverse economic and environmental needs now and in the 
future. The WSWC has long supported legislation that addresses needs 
related to the challenges of aging and inadequate infrastructure, while 
ensuring a reliable and secure water supply. The WSWC also has a long 
history of involvement in discussions between states and the federal 
government related to CWA Sections 401, 402, and 404, including state 
permitting authorities and jurisdiction over waters of the States and 
waters of the United States (WOTUS).
    Water in the West is a limited resource. Water must be recognized 
as a critical public policy priority given the importance of the 
resource to our public health, economy, food security, environment, and 
the western way of life. We must cultivate a western water conservation 
ethic through a greater understanding of and appreciation for water's 
value. A secure and sustainable water future will be determined by our 
ability to maintain, replace, expand, and make the most efficient use 
of critical water infrastructure. Sustainable water resource management 
should enhance the protection and restoration of significant aquatic 
ecosystems and improve economic and environmental security.
    The West and the Nation depend on an intricate and aging system of 
weirs, diversions, dams, reservoirs, pipelines, aqueducts, pumps, 
canals, laterals, drains, levees, wells, stormwater channels, and water 
and wastewater treatment and hydroelectric power plants. Substantial 
and sustained investments in water project construction, maintenance, 
rehabilitation, and replacement are necessary and pay long-term 
dividends to the economy, public health and safety, and the 
environment. The federal government has a significant role in financing 
and cost-sharing for water-related infrastructure, given federal 
economic and environmental objectives, federal tribal trust and treaty 
obligations, past commitments, and federal regulatory mandates. See 
WSWC positions #481, #486, #519, and #521--Resolutions Summary, Western 
States Water Council.
    The CWA Section 101(b) expressly recognizes, preserves, and 
protects ``the primary responsibilities and rights of States to 
prevent, reduce, and eliminate pollution, to plan the development and 
use (including restoration, preservation, and enhancement) of land and 
water resources. . . . '' and Section 101(b)(7) commits resources ``to 
support and aid research relating to the prevention, reduction, and 
elimination of pollution and to provide Federal technical services and 
financial aid to State and interstate agencies and municipalities in 
connection with the prevention, reduction, and elimination of 
pollution.''
    CWA Section 101(g) further provides that the primary and exclusive 
authority of each state to ``allocate quantities of water within its 
jurisdiction shall not be superseded, abrogated, or otherwise impaired 
by this Act.''

                     State Certifications (CWA 401)
                     
    The Western States strongly support the planning and development of 
critical infrastructure and streamlined permitting processes, but such 
efforts should not come at the expense of States' authority to 
allocate, manage, and protect their water resources. The Council 
supports a balanced and integrated approach to achieve water and energy 
policy goals that plans for the future in sustainable ways, and 
recognizes legitimate state water resource and water quality 
management, protection, and planning authorities to balance competing 
water uses. The development of hydropower and other federally permitted 
and licensed projects involving activities that may impact states' 
water quality standards should be appropriately undertaken in 
compliance with substantive and procedural state water law and 
delegated authority under CWA Section 401.
    States have responsibly exercised their delegated authority under 
the CWA Section 401 and under state water quality statutes to protect 
water quality, and they must consider proposed activities and 
discharges in light of the States' designated water uses and related 
water quality standards. An overly narrow reading of Section 401 would 
deprive the States of the ability to maintain the very beneficial uses 
that the CWA was designed to protect, and would threaten the existing 
partnership between state and federal agencies based on cooperative 
federalism.
    CWA Section 401 certification denials by states are rare and 
carefully considered, and are not examples of the failure of the 
system, as the process has been historically well-understood, reliable 
and supported by case law that provides certainty for both state and 
federal agencies, and the regulated community. The vast majority of 
Section 401 certification requests are processed by States within 90 
days, well within the one year allowed by current law, with relatively 
little if any backlog of certification actions. Most delays are 
typically due to submission of an incomplete application, applicants' 
non-responsiveness to requests for additional information, the 
completion of necessary study requirements, the size and complexity of 
some projects (and related impacts), substantive changes to the 
proposed project requiring further review, or constraints on state 
resources.
    Substantial and recurring changes to regulatory definitions, 
policies, and programs between federal Administrations create 
uncertainty for co-regulators and the regulated community, often 
leading to unreliable results, indecision, inconsistency, and lawsuits.
    Actions taken by the federal government under the 2020 CWA Section 
401 Certification Rule (85 FR 42210) caused some Western States to 
issue an increased number of denials, due to inflexible deadlines that 
did not accommodate state public engagement laws or allow sufficient 
time to gather adequate information on project impacts. The 2020 rule 
revision led to federal agencies waiving reopener conditions in 
nationwide permits imposed on federal projects by States under CWA 
Section 401, inconsistent with CWA Sections 101(b) and 101(g), Section 
27 of the Federal Power Act, and the Supreme Court ruling under P.U.D. 
No. 1 of Jefferson County v. Washington Department of Ecology.
    The 2023 CWA Section 401 Water Quality Certification Improvement 
Rule (88 FR 66558) identified 16 national parks that EPA declared to be 
``lands of exclusive federal jurisdiction'' and asserted that EPA is 
the Section 401 certifying authority in those parks, although States 
have been the certifying authority in some of those parks for decades.
    The WSWC strongly supports early state engagement in federal 
permitting and licensing actions and the coordination of state and 
federal environmental requirements and review processes for critical 
infrastructure without diminishing state authority. WSWC encourages EPA 
to consult with affected states regarding certifying authority in 
national parks designated as ``lands of exclusive federal 
jurisdiction'' in order to resolve any jurisdictional disputes in a 
manner that upholds the CWA's direct grant of Section 401 certifying 
authority to States and its intent to empower States to protect water 
quality within their boundaries.
    The WSWC supports any changes that strengthen the deference to 
state water laws and do not diminish the primary state authority and 
responsibility for the appropriation, allocation, development, 
conservation, and protection of their water resources, including 
minimum streamflows, and the protection of water quality and designated 
uses.
    In 1994, the U.S. Supreme Court issued a 7-2 decision declaring 
that minimum streamflow requirements are a permissible condition of CWA 
Section 401 certifications. A Washington city and local utility 
district sought a license to build a hydroelectric project on the 
Dosewallips River. The proposed project would reduce the water flow 
below the state's minimum stream flow requirement to protect fish 
habitat, a state designated use of the water under Section 303 of the 
CWA. The Washington Department of Ecology issued a Section 401 
certification imposing a minimum stream flow requirement as a condition 
of the hydropower license, and the applicants objected to the state's 
authority to impose water flow requirements.
    In P.U.D. No. 1 of Jefferson County v. Washington Department of 
Ecology, 511 U.S. 700 (1994), the Court upheld a state's authority to 
impose conditions under the Section 401 certification process where 
necessary to protect a designated use for fish habitat. The Court 
rejected the argument that water quality requirements were limited to 
discharges under the CWA, noting that Washington's instream flow 
requirement was necessary to enforce the designated use of the river. 
The Court said that the CWA preserves each state's authority to 
allocate water quantity between users and does not limit Section 401 to 
water quality concerns when protecting designated uses. Importantly, 
the Court also rejected an effort to read ``implied limitations'' into 
Section 401 based on a perceived conflict between Section 401 state 
certifications and FERC authority under the Federal Power Act and the 
interpretation in First Iowa Hydro-Electric Cooperative v. FPC, 328 
U.S. 152 (1946).
    Again in 2006, the Supreme Court recognized that State 401 
certification authority is `` . . . essential in the scheme to preserve 
state authority to address the broad range of pollution.'' S.D. Warren 
Co. v. Maine Board of Environmental Protection, 547 U.S. 370 (2006), 
citing 116 Cong. Rec. 8984 (1970).

                   NPDES Permits and Water Transfers
                   
    The CWA prohibits discharging ``pollutants'' through a ``point 
source'' into a ``water of the United States'' without first obtaining 
a National Pollutant Discharge Elimination System (NPDES) permit. The 
permit includes limits on what can be discharged, monitoring and 
reporting requirements, and other provisions to ensure that the 
discharge does not violate state water quality standards.
    EPA in 40 CFR Part 122.3(i) expressly excluded water transfers from 
regulation under the NPDES permitting program, and defined a water 
transfer as an activity that conveys or connects waters of the United 
States to another water of the United States without subjecting the 
water to intervening industrial, municipal, or commercial use. The rule 
relies on EPA's CWA interpretation and does not limit any ability of a 
State to use any available authority, including authority regarding 
nonpoint sources of pollution, to protect the water quality of the 
receiving water body in a water transfer.
    Water transfers and water quality are essential to the social, 
economic and environmental well-being of the Western States. The United 
States Court of Appeals, in the cases of Friends of the Everglades v. 
South Florida Water Management Dist., 570 F.3d 1210 (11th Cir. 2009), 
and New York State et al. v. Environmental Protection Agency, 846 F.3d 
492 (2nd Cir. 2017), upheld EPA's Water Transfer Rule, holding it to be 
a reasonable construction of the CWA and therefore entitled to 
deference by the Federal Courts and on which decisions the United 
States Supreme Court subsequently denied Petitions for Writ of 
Certiorari.
    The WSWC supports EPA's amendment to its CWA regulations in 40 CFR 
122.3(i) and supports the codification of 40 CFR 122.3(i) into statute 
by Congress. The WSWC has long declared its position that the transport 
of water through constructed conveyances to supply water for various 
uses without the ``addition'' of a pollutant should not trigger federal 
NPDES permitting requirements, simply because the transported water 
contains different chemical concentrations and physical constituents. 
The WSWC supports the ability of each Western State to use available 
authorities to place appropriate conditions on water transfers to 
protect water quality. With few exceptions, States have been delegated 
full or partial federal authority to administer the NPDES program and 
issue permits. Moreover, regardless of the extent of federal 
jurisdiction over waters of the United States, States have authority to 
protect their waters of the State, including any waters that may not 
fall under CWA delegated NPDES permitting authority.

                  Waters of the United States (WOTUS)
                  
    The CWA is built upon the principle of cooperative federalism in 
which Congress intended the States, the EPA, and the U.S. Army Corps of 
Engineers (USACE) implement the CWA as partners, delegating co-
regulator authority to the States. This cooperative federalism 
framework has resulted in significant water quality improvements since 
the law's enactment in 1972, and Western States have made great strides 
in protecting water quality and coordinating water quality and water 
quantity decisions. It is imperative that EPA and USACE actively seek 
meaningful state consultation, engagement, and participation in the 
review and development of any new proposed or final rule to define 
WOTUS. States are best positioned to manage the water within their 
borders because of their on-the-ground knowledge of the unique aspects 
of their hydrology, geology, and legal frameworks.
    States have both state statutory and constitutional authority 
pursuant to their ``waters of the state'' jurisdiction to protect the 
quality of waters within their borders, and such jurisdiction generally 
extends beyond the limits of federal jurisdiction under the CWA. Again, 
CWA Section 101(b) supports the States' critical role in protecting 
water quality as Congress explicitly declared that it did ``recognize, 
preserve, and protect the primary responsibilities and rights of States 
to prevent, reduce, and eliminate pollution.'' The Supreme Court has 
limited the jurisdictional scope of the CWA in U.S. v. Riverside 
Bayview Homes, Inc., 474 U.S. 121 (1985); Solid Waste Agency of 
Northern Cook County (SWANCC) v. Corps, 531 U.S. 159 (2001); Rapanos v. 
United States, 547 U.S. 715, 723 (2006); and Sackett v. EPA (#21-424).
    Perennial streams with a relatively permanent surface water 
connection to navigable waters are presumptively considered to be under 
federal CWA jurisdiction consistent with Rapanos and Justice Scalia's 
plurality opinion. In Sackett, the Court affirmed the phrase ``waters 
of the United States'' includes only relatively permanent, standing, or 
continuously flowing bodies of water.
    A one-size-fits-all national approach to federal regulations, 
guidance, and programs pertaining to the CWA does not recognize 
specific conditions and needs in the West, where water and 
precipitation can be scarce and a variety of unique waterbodies exist, 
including small ephemeral washes and arroyos, snow dependent 
intermittent streams, effluent dependent and dominated streams, prairie 
potholes, playa lakes, and terminal lakes, as well as numerous man-made 
reservoirs, impoundments, and water and stormwater conveyance 
structures. Further, there are physical, biological, and chemical 
differences between waters, and hydrologic differences, both spatially 
and temporally, as well as considerable differences in legal doctrines 
that govern water in Western States, which mean that federal effort to 
clarify CWA jurisdiction will inevitably impact each State differently, 
thus underscoring the need to thoroughly involve States in developing 
and implementing any rule so as to clearly respect and avoid conflict 
with state authority over the regulation of water quality and the 
allocation of waters and water rights within their respective borders
    Any efforts to redefine or clarify CWA jurisdiction have, on their 
face, numerous federalism implications that have the potential to 
significantly impact States and alter the distribution of power and 
responsibilities among the States and the federal government. As co-
regulators, States are separate and apart from the general public, and 
have a unique role with the federal government in the development and 
implementation of any rule to clarify or redefine CWA jurisdiction. 
Information-sharing does not equate to meaningful consultation, and the 
uncertainty and differences of opinion that exist regarding CWA 
jurisdiction requires EPA and the USACE to develop and implement 
federal CWA jurisdiction efforts in authentic partnership with the 
States. Uncertainty and differences of opinion have and continue to 
exist regarding CWA jurisdiction among States, and challenge EPA and 
the Corps to develop and implement any new rule in cooperation with the 
States, based on principles of cooperative federalism, and together to 
provide greater certainty and a clearer definition of the limits of 
federal jurisdiction.
    As noted above, substantial and recurring changes to regulatory 
definitions, policies, and programs between federal Administrations 
create uncertainty for co-regulators and the regulated community, often 
leading to unreliable results, indecision, inconsistency, and lawsuits. 
Congress and this Administration should ensure that any federal effort 
to clarify or define CWA jurisdiction and define Waters of the United 
States:
    1.  Creates an enduring and broadly supported definition.
    2.  Acknowledges and addresses the needs, priorities, and concerns 
of states as co-regulators.
    3.  Includes robust, meaningful, and representative state 
participation and consultation in the development and implementation of 
any rule, acknowledging the inherent federalism implications.
    4.  Gives full force and effect to Congress' intent to maintain a 
reasonable balance of state and federal authority and the purposes of 
CWA Sections 101(b) and 101(g).
    5.  Complies with the limits set by Congress as interpreted by the 
Supreme Court, and appropriately incorporates those limits.
    6.  Specifically identifies waters and features outside the scope 
of the CWA jurisdiction including but not limited to groundwater and 
historically recognized agricultural exemptions.
    7.  Acknowledges that States have authority to protect all ``waters 
of the state,'' and that excluding waters from federal jurisdiction 
does not always mean that they will be exempt from state regulation and 
protection.
    8.  Continues to provide access to appropriate technical and 
financial assistance to the states to protect and improve water quality 
under existing EPA programs without regard to jurisdictional 
determinations.
    9.  Provides a clearly delineated process for resolving differences 
of opinion over federal and non-federal jurisdiction, and jurisdiction 
between different States and Tribes (treated as states).
    10.  Provides for mapping of jurisdictional waters as a joint 
federal/state/tribal effort employing the best available data and 
tools, with appropriate provisions and processes for map maintenance.
    11.  Includes an appropriate delay in the effective date of any new 
rule or otherwise allows for a transition enabling states to take such 
actions as may be necessary to address any gaps in state law, 
regulation and protection, and to ensure sufficient time for tools to 
be developed by federal agencies, in collaboration with states, that 
facilitate implementation of the new rule.
    12.  Recognizes the need to balance definitional clarity with 
flexibility in implementation to address the unique landscapes, flow 
regimes, and legal frameworks in various regions of the Nation and 
appropriately weighs all factors of science, law, and effective policy 
to draw jurisdictional conclusions that are appropriate, and that do 
not impinge on the rights of States.
    13.  Considers a regional approach to the definitions of terms for 
foundational and any categorical waters in the rule and defines regions 
building upon existing classification systems based on hydrology, 
geology, and climate.
    14.  Provides, in the rule development process, a representative 
number of states, as co-regulators, with diverse perspectives and 
regions to engage actively in an integrated way with the EPA and Corps 
staff to provide direct and effective feedback on the implementability 
of a proposed rule which requires ample time for development of new 
regulatory language.

                    EPA Veto Authority (CWA 404(c))
                    
    EPA's actions in the Section 404 permitting process have not always 
been consistent with established protocols, creating challenges for 
States' engagement and public and private investment in projects 
requiring Section 404 permits.
    CWA Section 404(c) grants the EPA Administrator the power ``to 
prohibit the specification (including the withdrawal of specification) 
of any defined area as a disposal site, and . . . deny or restrict the 
use of any defined area . . . as a disposal site, whenever he 
determines . . . that the discharge of such materials into such area 
will have an unacceptable adverse effect on municipal water supplies, 
shellfish beds and fishery areas (including spawning and breeding 
areas), wildlife, or recreational areas.''
    In 1992, as directed by CWA Section 404(q), EPA and USACE executed 
a Memorandum of Agreement (``1992 MOA'') that bound the two agencies to 
specific procedures for resolving potential disagreements, including 
``elevation of specific individual permit cases . . . that involve 
aquatic resources of national importance.''
    WSWC supports the promulgation of regulations and guidance: (1) 
improving predictability in Section 404 permitting, specifically the 
404(c) and 404(q) processes; (2) improving communication between 
federal agencies and States, particularly providing States with a 
meaningful opportunity to address EPA concerns prior to the exercise of 
its veto power; and (3) requiring EPA to adhere to established Section 
404 permitting processes and protocols, and to update those protocols 
as appropriate to reflect current procedures.
    WSWC also supports documentation of the rationale for any Section 
404(c) veto, including: (1) verification that impacted waters are 
Waters of the United States; (2) findings from any Final Environmental 
Impact Statement pertaining to the proposed project; (3) impacts to 
municipal water supplies, shellfish beds, fishery areas, wildlife, and 
recreational areas; and (4) resolved issues emanating from discussions 
between the USACE and EPA.
    Thank you for the opportunity to submit our written testimony.

                                 
                                 
Letter of February 11, 2025, from the Waters Advocacy Coalition, to  Hon.
 Mike Collins, Chairman, and   Hon. Frederica S. Wilson,  Ranking Member,
 Subcommittee  on  Water Resources  and  Environment,  Submitted  for the
 Record by Hon. Brad Knott
 
                                                 February 11, 2025.
The Honorable Mike Collins,
Chairman,
Subcommittee on Water Resources and Environment, Committee on 
        Transportation and Infrastructure, U.S. House of 
        Representatives, Washington, DC 20515.
The Honorable Frederica S. Wilson,
Ranking Member,
Subcommittee on Water Resources and Environment, Committee on 
        Transportation and Infrastructure, U.S. House of 
        Representatives, Washington, DC 20515.
    Dear Chairman Collins and Ranking Member Wilson:
    The Waters Advocacy Coalition (WAC) applauds your leadership in 
holding today's hearing on ``America Builds: Clean Water Act Permitting 
and Project Delivery.'' WAC represents a large and diverse cross-
section of the nation's broad business community, including the 
construction, transportation, real estate, mining, manufacturing, 
forestry, agriculture, energy, wildlife conservation, and public health 
and safety sectors. Our members are vital to building a thriving 
national economy and are essential to achieving the nation's critical 
infrastructure, manufacturing, supply chain, transportation, and energy 
goals.
    Our members operate their businesses in compliance with a 
comprehensive framework of federal and state laws, regulations, and 
policies. They regularly obtain federal Clean Water Act (CWA) permits, 
including dredge and fill permits from the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers 
under CWA section 404 and discharge permits from the U.S. Environmental 
Protection Agency and state permitting authorities under CWA section 
402. Many of our members also conduct activities under the Corps' 
Nationwide Permit program, which provides an important option to 
expedite projects that have lower environmental impact. We therefore 
have a significant interest in the Committee's work to address CWA 
permitting and project delivery challenges and opportunities.
    For many of our members, CWA permitting can be a major hurdle in 
moving essential projects forward efficiently. We appreciate the 
Committee's work to address these challenges and ensure that essential 
projects are not hindered by bureaucratic delays or uncertainties, 
while supporting the CWA's cooperative federalism framework, 
environmental protection, and the need for a more streamlined, 
predictable regulatory framework.
    We look forward to working with you to identify opportunities for 
targeted reforms that will help achieve our nation's ambitious national 
priorities and support the communities that depend on these projects.
            Sincerely,

American Exploration & Mining           National Association of Home 
  Association.                            Builders.
American Farm Bureau Federation.        National Association of Realtors. 
American Road and Transportation        National Mining Association.    
  Builders Association.                 National Asphalt Pavement 
Associated Builders and                   Association.
  Contractors.                          National Stone, Sand & Gravel      
Associated General Contractors of         Association.            
  America.                              The Fertilizer Institute.     
Leading Builders of America.            RISE (Responsible Industry for a .                     
Liquid Energy Pipeline Association.       Sound Environment)                            
National Club Association.              Southeastern Lumber                  
                                          Manufacturers Association.
 

cc: Members of the Committee on Transportation and Infrastructure

                                 
                                 
Letter of February 11, 2025, from Aurelia S. Giacometto, Secretary, State of
 Louisiana,  Department   of   Environmental   Quality,  to   Committee   on
 Transportation   and   Infrastructure,   Subcommittee  on  Water  Resources 
 and Environment, Submitted for the Record by Hon. Brad Knott
 
                                State of Louisiana,
                     Department of Environmental Quality,  
                                       Office of the Secretary,    
                                               February 11, 2025.  
Committee on Transportation and Infrastructure,
Subcommittee on Water Resources and Environment,
U.S. House of Representatives, 2165 Rayburn House Office Building, 
        Washington, DC 20515.

Re: America Builds

    Dear Chairman Graves, Chairman Collins, and ranking members:
    I understand that the House Committee on Transportation and 
Infrastructure's Subcommittee on Water Resources and Environment is 
interested in confronting challenges with Clean Water Act (CWA) 
permitting and encouraging federalism in environmental protection. I am 
pleased to provide Louisiana's experience and perspective as it relates 
to the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency and the U.S. Army Corps of 
Engineers implementation of CWA Section 404. Louisiana is committed to 
protecting the quality of our waters. At the same time, we are 
committed to fairness in permitting, economic progress, and natural 
resource development. I believe Congress intended that the States would 
play a critical role in implementing the CWA within their states. I 
look forward to working with the Committee to improve the federal-state 
partnership established under the CWA cooperative federalism framework.

                        CWA Section 404 Permits:
                        
    As a primacy state, Louisiana's Department of Environmental Quality 
authorizes over 30,000 environmental permits per year. Currently, the 
U.S. Army Corps of Engineers implements the CWA Section 404 program in 
the state. Unfortunately, federal agency overreach through the Section 
404 program interferes with the ability of states to determine economic 
activity within our borders. Two recent examples illustrate my 
concerns.
1. Corps use of National Historic Preservation Act Section 106 review 
        to delay permits.
    In the context of reviewing a CWA Section 404 permit application 
for development of a large-scale grain elevator and associated 
infrastructure, on June 10, 2024, the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers 
requested a determination of eligibility from the Keeper of the 
National Register of Historic Places under the 36 C.F.R. Part 800 
regulations. At the urging of environmental advocates, the Corps 
request included a huge swath of land within the State, over 22,000 
acres, far beyond the area of permitted effects identified by the Corps 
during review of the permit. After prolonged delay, the applicant 
withdrew the permit and requested that the Keeper suspend review of the 
Corps request due to the absence of any proposed federal action and no 
potential effect to historic resources.
    Without any jurisdiction or authority, on Oct 16, 2024, the Keeper 
issued a determination finding the entire area eligible for listing. 
The Keeper noted that ``the Section 106 consultation has since been 
terminated because the applicant has withdrawn its permit request, but 
the Army Corps has stated . . . that it is still requesting this 
determination on eligibility.'' Going forward, any development within 
the 22,000 acre boundary must fully comply with the NHPA Section 106. 
The Corps illegal and overreaching actions were intended to stop all 
project development within a substantial area of Louisiana, amounting 
to federal zoning within our State.
2. EPA's weaponization of regulations implementing Title VI of the 
        Civil Rights Act.
    Under the Biden administration, EPA has taken unprecedented steps 
to use EPA's Title VI regulations to leverage states to include 
conditions on or preclude permitting altogether under the guise of 
preventing ``disparate impacts.'' EPA's regulations, 40 C.F.R. Part 7, 
prohibit actions that ``have or may have the effect of subjecting a 
person to discrimination.'' However, the Supreme Court clarified that 
Title VI only prohibits intentional discrimination. Alexander v. 
Sandoval, 532 U.S. 275, 280-81 (2001). The Court expressed skepticism 
on the validity of EPA's regulations. Id. at 282. Last year, a federal 
court in Louisiana enjoined EPA from enforcing its regulations against 
the State of Louisiana, finding Title VI has no disparate impact 
language, only intentional discrimination is prohibited. Louisiana v. 
EPA, No. 2:23-cv-692, 2024 WL 250798 (W.D. La. Jan. 23, 2024). The 
Court found that EPA has weaponized Title VI as a blanket grant of 
authority to veto permitting decisions and that the regulations require 
decision-makers to evaluate the racial outcomes of their policies and 
to make decisions on those racial outcomes. While limiting the decision 
to Louisiana, Judge Cain cast doubt on the legality of EPA's 
regulations in any state. Twenty-three states, Louisiana included, 
requested the EPA amend its regulations to bring them in line with the 
text of the statute and with the Equal Protection Clause of the U.S. 
Constitution. Congress should ensure EPA complies with the States' 
request.

                   CWA Section 404 Program Assumption
                   
    The CWA Section 404 program remains one of the widely misused 
federal environmental permitting programs. It is for this reason that 
Louisiana, among several other states, has expressed interest and even 
taken steps toward assuming permitting responsibility. On December 18, 
2024, EPA published a final rule revising the regulations governing 
State and Tribal assumption of the CWA section 404 permitting program. 
Unfortunately, that rule raises several concerns, particularly with 
EPA's oversight of compliance with CWA 404(b)(1) and determining the 
list of waters that would be retained as federally regulated waters. As 
written, the final rule will do little to motivate states to seek 
assumption. Congress should require EPA to withdraw that rule and 
publish a new rule that reflects state input.
    I appreciate the opportunity to provide the Department's view on 
these important permitting issues.
            Sincerely yours,
                                     Aurelia S. Giacometto,
Secretary, State of Louisiana, Department of Environmental Quality.

                                 
                                 
Letter of February 11, 2025, from Kristen Swearingen, Vice President, Leg-
 islative and Political Affairs,  Associated Builders and Contractors,  to
 Hon. Mike Collins,  Chairman,  and  Hon.  Frederica  S.  Wilson,  Ranking 
 Member,  Subcommittee  on  Water  Resources  and  Environment,  Submitted
 for the Record by Hon. Brad Knott
                     
                                                 February 11, 2025.
The Honorable Mike Collins,
Chairman,
Committee on Transportation and Infrastructure, Subcommittee on Water 
        Resources and Environment, U.S. House of Representatives, 
        Washington, DC 20515.
The Honorable Frederica S. Wilson,
Ranking Member,
Committee on Transportation and Infrastructure, Subcommittee on Water 
        Resources and Environment, U.S. House of Representatives, 
        Washington, DC 20515.
    Dear Chairman Collins, Ranking Member Wilson and Members of House 
Committee on Transportation and Infrastructure's Subcommittee on Water 
Resources and Environment:
    On behalf of Associated Builders and Contractors, a national 
construction industry trade association with 67 chapters representing 
more than 23,000 members, thank you for holding the hearing, ``America 
Builds: Clean Water Act Permitting and Project Delivery.'' ABC members 
play a significant role in building America's infrastructure and seek 
to inform the committee of legislative opportunities to responsibly 
streamline CWA Section 404 permitting by eliminating persistent 
statutory barriers to state assumption.
    Section 404 prohibits the deposition of dredge or fill material 
into the waters of the United States without a permit. The U.S. Army 
Corps of Engineers exclusively administers Section 404 in every state 
except Michigan and New Jersey. Completion of the USACE Section 404 
permitting process averages nearly 800 days and nearly $300,000 in 
applicant administrative costs per permit, frustrating action on 
America's critical housing and infrastructure priorities.
    The recent divestiture in federal court of Florida's Section 404 
authority exemplifies persistent statutory barriers to state 
implementation, contrary to the CWA's explicit preservation of states' 
``primary responsibilities and rights'' to ensure the integrity of 
water resources. Improving the statutory framework would eliminate 
duplicative permitting, achieve decisional consistency, and promote 
transparency by reducing points of contact for permittees. For example, 
at the time of Florida's Section 404 assumption, Florida's state-
administered wetland program covered 86% of waters subject to 
concurrent USACE permitting, and permitted in 17 days the same activity 
in the same waterway that USACE permitted in 300 days.
    Congress should enact amendments consistent with the following 
recommendations to simplify Section 404 assumption and vest states with 
the authority to exert the superior efficiency, consistency, and 
transparency achievable via localized administration of wetland 
permitting.
      Authorize Endangered Species Act Section 7 liability 
protection to flow through state or tribal Section 404 enforcement 
agencies: Congress should allow states to secure Endangered Species Act 
Section 7 incidental take permits covering all state-administered 
Section 404 program permittees, subject to adequate state regulatory 
provision for subsequent species- and site-specific U.S. Fish and 
Wildlife Service or National Marine Fisheries Service determinations.

      Authorize states and tribes that assume Section 404 
authority to issue permits of equivalent duration to USACE Section 404 
permits: Congress should ensure parity in the duration of permits 
issuable by USACE and state authorities by substituting the present 
five-year lifetime of state-issued permits under Section 404 with 
provision that state permits may not exceed statutory or regulatory 
limitations governing the duration of permits issued by USACE.

      Clarify that states and tribes may assume authority to 
issue Section 404 permits for discharges into a portion of assumable 
waters: Congress should eliminate the current ``all or nothing'' 
assumption framework and afford states latitude to administer 
permitting for those activities and assumable waters they are best 
equipped to manage.

      Authorize expenditure of EPA Wetland Development Grant 
Program funding to offset continuing state Section 404 implementation 
costs by supplementing state fee-for-service revenues: In view of the 
potential for wider Section 404 assumption to relax demands on federal 
personnel and resources, Congress should at minimum eliminate present 
obstacles to expenditure of existing federal funding for state water 
quality programming on continuing administration of assumed programs.

    ABC appreciates the opportunity to comment on today's hearing and 
looks forward to working with the committee during the 119th Congress.
            Sincerely,
                                        Kristen Swearingen,
                 Vice President, Legislative and Political Affairs,
                               Associated Builders and Contractors.

                                 
                                 
Letter of February 11, 2025,  from  Amanda E. Eversole,  Executive Vice 
 President and Chief Advocacy Officer, American Petroleum Institute, to 
 Hon. Mike Collins,  Chairman,  and  Hon. Frederica S. Wilson,  Ranking 
 Member,  Subcommittee on  Water Resources and  Environment,  Submitted
 for the Record by Hon. Mike Collins
                    
                                                 February 11, 2025.
The Honorable Mike Collins,
Chair,
Subcommittee on Water Resources and Environment, 2165 Rayburn House 
        Office Building, Washington, DC 20515.
The Honorable Frederica Wilson,
Ranking Member,
Subcommittee on Water Resources and Environment, 2165 Rayburn House 
        Office Building, Washington, DC 20515.
    Dear Chairman Collins and Ranking Member Wilson:
    The American Petroleum Institute (API) writes regarding the 
upcoming Water Resources and Environment Subcommittee Hearing: 
``America Builds: Clean Water Act Permitting and Project Delivery'' on 
Tuesday, February 11, 2025.
    API is committed to meeting the challenge of providing affordable 
and reliable energy while continuing to reduce emissions. As the 
leading trade association representing the entire value chain of the 
U.S. oil and natural gas industry, API supports policies that 
strengthen our nation's energy security and economy and protect our 
environment. Permitting reform, including changes to the Clean Water 
Act, is essential to unlocking investments in the infrastructure we 
need to build to unleash American energy.
    Investments to modernize infrastructure, including expanding 
current pipeline capacity and building new capacity, can help ensure 
that energy remains affordable for American consumers, create good-
paying jobs, give U.S. manufacturers a competitive advantage through 
lower energy and raw material costs, and provide revenue to local, 
state and federal governments. Yet, decades-long challenges with the 
existing permitting process have hampered the development of critical 
infrastructure projects and jeopardized American energy security.
    Many of those permits are issued at the state or federal level 
under the Clean Water Act (CWA) when a project may impact navigable 
waters. The permitting process can take years, and those delays can 
lead to skyrocketing project costs or even cancellation. Last Congress, 
this committee passed two bills--H.R. 1152 and H.R. 7023--that would 
have made meaningful reforms to the CWA to create a more conducive 
environment for moving critical projects forward.
    H.R. 1152 would have helped ensure that water quality 
certifications reviewed and issued by states, tribes or EPA under 
Section 401 are limited to direct water quality impacts from point 
source discharges to navigable waters and are not be used by certifying 
agencies as a de facto veto of critical energy projects. H.R. 7023 
would have codified the Nationwide Permit (NWP) Program under Section 
404 to ensure the ongoing viability of the program for linear 
infrastructure projects and extended the reissuance period to provide 
greater regulatory certainty. We are pleased to see the committee 
revisit this important topic this Congress and hope to see legislation 
reintroduced that aligns with the following recommendations for CWA 
permitting reform:

Section 401:
      Clarify that it applies only to federal activity--Need 
for certification arises only when a federally licensed or permitted 
activity has the potential to result in a discharge from a point source 
into a ``water of the United States.''
      Scope of reviews--Certification review is limited to 
assuring that a discharge from a Federally licensed or permitted 
activity will comply with water quality requirements. Certification 
review shall not include review of other sources, indirect impacts, 
and/or the ``activity as a whole.''
      Start of the clock--Certification review period commences 
upon the date of the certifying authority's receipt of a request for 
certification, and this review period cannot exceed one year, as 
specified in the statute.
      Prohibit withdrawal / resubmit--Certifying authorities 
should not be allowed to restart the one-year time review requirement 
solely by recommending withdrawal and/or resubmission of applications.
      Clear application requirements--Require states to publish 
requirements for certification requests and require states to notify 
applicants within 30 days of receipt of application whether the states 
have all the materials needed to process a certification request.
      Determinations--Final decisions on whether to grant, 
grant with conditions or deny a request for certification must be in 
writing and based only on local water quality reasons, and certifying 
authorities must provide rationale for decision.
      Conditions--Each certification condition should be 
supported by an explanation for why the condition is necessary to 
certify compliance with water quality requirements and supported with a 
citation to applicable legal requirements that protect water quality.
Section 404:
      NWP renewals--Extend the reissuance cycle for NWPs from 
five to ten years, which would help provide increased regulatory 
certainty for project developers and avoid potential disruption to 
critical infrastructure projects.
      Confined EPA Authority--Ensure that EPA does not pre-
emptively bar potential activities requiring a CWA Section 404 permit 
before there is an applicant or a project; for EPA to make a veto 
determination under 404(c), an entity must apply for an actual Section 
404 permit with the Corps.
      One NWP--To help ensure predictability for project 
developers, clarify that one linear project can be authorized under one 
NWP, even if there are multiple owners or developers and even if there 
are multiple crossings of the same water body in different places or 
multiple water bodies in the same location.
      Consultation--Because the Corps' issuance and reissuance 
of NWP 12 is limited to only those activities that have ``no effect'' 
on listed species or designated critical habitat, clarify that 
consultation under the Endangered Species Act is not required.
      Use for oil / pipelines--Ensure that the Administration 
maintains NWP 12 for activities associated with oil and natural gas 
pipelines that do not result in the loss of greater than \1/2\ acre of 
Waters of the United States for each single and complete project.
      Judicial review--Include a provision to ensure that an 
action seeking judicial review of an individual or general permit under 
section 404 must be filed no later than 60 days from the date the 
permit is issued. In addition, ensure that if a federal court remands 
or vacates a permit under section 404, the issuer of the permit must 
act on the remand or vacatur no later than 180 days from the date the 
permit is remanded or vacated. In addition, ensure that those permits 
already approved as of the date of enactment are not subject to 
challenge.

    Applying these reforms to Section 401 and 404 of the CWA would help 
create a more conducive environment for moving critical projects 
forward by providing a more transparent, timely and consistent process.
    API looks forward to working with Congress to advance meaningful 
bipartisan permitting reform this year.
            Sincerely,
                                        Amanda E. Eversole,
               Executive Vice President and Chief Advocacy Officer,
                                      American Petroleum Institute.

CC:  The Honorable Sam Graves, Chair, House Committee on Transportation 
and Infrastructure
     The Honorable Rick Larsen, Ranking Member, House Committee on 
Transportation and Infrastructure

                                 
                                 
Letter of February 11, 2025, from Rich Nolan, President and Chief Execu-
 tive Officer, National Mining Association, to Hon. Mike Collins, Chair-
 man,  and  Hon. Frederica S. Wilson,  Ranking Member,  Subcommittee  on 
 Water  Resources  and  Environment, Submitted for  the  Record by  Hon.
 Mike Collins
                                
                                                 February 11, 2025.
The Honorable Mike Collins,
Chairman,
Subcommittee on Water Resources and Environment, Committee on 
        Transportation and Infrastructure, U.S. House of 
        Representatives, Washington, DC 20515.
The Honorable Frederica S. Wilson,
Ranking Member,
Subcommittee on Water Resources and Environment, Committee on 
        Transportation and Infrastructure, U.S. House of 
        Representatives, Washington, DC 20515.
    Dear Chairman Collins and Ranking Member Wilson:
    On behalf of the National Mining Association (NMA) and our nearly 
280 member companies and organizations, I applaud your leadership in 
holding today's hearing on ``America Builds: Clean Water Act Permitting 
and Project Delivery.''
    The NMA is the only national trade organization that serves as the 
voice of the U.S. mining industry and the hundreds of thousands of 
American workers it employs before Congress, the federal agencies, the 
judiciary, and the media, advocating for public policies that will help 
America fully and responsibly utilize its vast natural resources. We 
work to ensure America has secure and reliable supply chains, abundant 
and affordable energy, and the American-sourced materials necessary for 
U.S. manufacturing, national security, and economic security, all 
delivered under world-leading environmental, safety, and labor 
standards. The NMA has a membership of more than 280 companies and 
organizations involved in every aspect of mining, from producers and 
equipment manufacturers to service providers.
    The NMA and our members support regulations that both foster 
environmental protection and promote responsible development. Our 
members operate under a comprehensive framework of federal and state 
laws, regulations, and policies that govern nearly every inch of a mine 
site. Our members regularly obtain Clean Water Act (CWA) section 404 
dredge and fill permits from the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers (Corps) 
and CWA section 402 National Pollutant Discharge Elimination System 
(NPDES) permits from the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) and 
state permitting authorities. We therefore have a significant interest 
in the Committee's work to identify challenges and opportunities in the 
CWA permitting process.
    Mining companies rely on fair, consistent, and predictable 
permitting processes to support our national priorities and remain 
competitive in the global economy. But for too long, regulatory 
uncertainty in the permitting process has delayed projects, chilled 
investment in U.S. mining operations, and inhibited the ability to mine 
the raw materials on which our nation's energy, infrastructure, 
manufacturing, and mining supply chains depend. The U.S. already has 
one of the longest mine permitting processes in the world. A recent 
report by S&P Global found that it takes an average of 29 years to 
bring a mine online in the U.S.--longer than any other country except 
Zambia, which takes 34 years.\1\ These delays have real world 
consequences. Unexpected delays alone can reduce a typical mining 
project's value by more than one-third, and the higher costs and 
increased risk that can arise from a prolonged permitting process can 
cut the expected value of a mine in half before production even 
begins.\2\ Permitting uncertainty can also cause project proponents and 
investors alike to look outside the U.S. when determining where to 
invest and develop projects. This puts our nation's supply chain 
independence at risk and creates a dangerous situation where we become 
increasingly import-dependent on necessary materials from adversarial 
countries.\3\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \1\ S&P Global, Mine Development Times: The U.S. in Perspective 
(June 2024), available at https://cdn.ihsmarkit.com/www/pdf/0724/
SPGlobal_NMA_DevelopmentTimesUSinPerspective_
June_2024.pdf.
    \2\ SNL Metals & Mining, ``Permitting, Economic Value, and Mining 
in the United States,'' at 9 (June 15, 2015), available at https://
nma.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/SNL_Permitting_Delay_Report-
Online.pdf (last visited Feb. 11, 2025).
    \3\ SNL Metals & Mining, ``Permitting, Economic Value, and Mining 
in the United States,'' at 9 (June 15, 2015), available at https://
nma.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/SNL_Permitting_Delay_Report-
Online.pdf (last visited Feb. 11, 2025).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    For our members, CWA permitting is often a significant hurdle to 
executing critical projects efficiently and effectively. The NMA 
appreciates the Committee's work on addressing CWA permitting 
challenges and strongly supported key provisions of the 118th Congress' 
H.R. 7023, Creating Confidence in Clean Water Permitting Act.\4\ \5\ 
Specifically, we\\ supported Sections 2, 5, and 6. Those provisions 
would promote transparency in EPA's water quality criteria development 
process; provide regulatory certainty in shoring up the existing CWA 
section 402(k) permit shield provision; and clarify timing of the CWA 
section 404(c) veto process to support fairness and predictability.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \4\ National Mining Association, ``Transportation and 
Infrastructure Clean Water Act Letter of Support,'' (January 2024), 
available at https://nma.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/02/TI-CWA-Letter-
of-Support-1-30-23-Final.pdf
    \5\ Waters Advocacy Coalition, `` `Waters of the United States' 
Implementation,'' (March 2024), available at https://nma.org/wp-
content/uploads/2024/06/FINAL-WAC-Letter-on-WOTUS-Implementation-
Questions.docx
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    In addition to these provisions in H.R. 7023, the NMA also 
encourages the Committee to explore statutory revisions to the CWA 
Section 401 state certification process to clarify the factors states 
and authorized Tribes can consider in their review; support the 
reauthorization of the Corps' current suite of Nationwide Permits; 
promote flexibility in the compensatory mitigation process; and find 
ways to help states and the federal government work together to support 
the CWA's cooperative federalism framework.
    The NMA stands ready to assist the Committee on identifying 
opportunities to improve the CWA permitting process to support domestic 
mining. We look forward to working with your teams on next steps.
            Sincerely,
                                                Rich Nolan,
President and Chief Executive Officer, National Mining Association.

                                 
                                 
 Letter of February 20, 2025, from T. Lane Wilson, Sr. Vice President and
  General Counsel,  The Williams Companies, Inc.,  to  Hon. Mike Collins,
  Chairman, and Hon. Frederica S. Wilson, Ranking Member, Subcommittee on
  Water  Resources and  Environment,  Submitted for  the  Record by  Hon.
  Mike Collins
  
                                                 February 20, 2025.
The Honorable Mike Collins,
Chairman,
Committee on Transportation and Infrastructure, Subcommittee on Water 
        Resources and Environment, United States House of 
        Representatives, 2251 Rayburn House Office Building, 
        Washington, DC 20515.
The Honorable Frederica S, Wilson,
Ranking Member,
Committee on Transportation and Infrastructure, Subcommittee on Water 
        Resources and Environment, United States House of 
        Representatives, 2251 Rayburn House Office Building, 
        Washington, DC 20515.
    Dear Chairman Collins and Ranking Member Wilson:
    Thank you for holding this important Hearing in the U.S. House of 
Representatives Committee on Transportation & Infrastructure 
Subcommittee on Water Resources and Environment about the need for 
commonsense Clean Water Act (CWA) permitting reforms.
    Williams is a trusted energy industry leader committed to safely, 
reliably, and responsibly meeting growing energy demand. We use our 
33,000-mile pipeline infrastructure to serve 12 key supply areas and 
handle about one-third of the nation's natural gas. We operate Transco, 
the country's largest interstate natural gas network, with more than 40 
percent more volume than the next largest natural gas pipeline.
            Pipelines are Essential, Pipelines Power America
    Pipelines are the safest, cleanest, and most cost-efficient means 
of transporting energy. The U.S. Department of Transportation 
recognizes that pipelines are essential infrastructure capable of 
moving greater volumes of energy resources than any other mode of 
transportation.
    Oil and natural gas account for 74 percent of our nation's energy 
mix--nearly all of that product is transported via pipeline.\i\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \i\ https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/us-energy-facts/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Regions of the country where pipelines are more abundant see lower 
energy costs, and it is no coincidence that regions with higher energy 
costs are known for overly aggressive permitting regimes or abuses of 
the permitting process to block or cancel interstate natural gas 
pipeline projects.
    During peak demand, New England experiences extremely high price 
spikes compared to other areas of the country. For example, gas prices 
have spiked numerous times during winter months in New England (as high 
as $75 per MMBtu) in the past decade, while prices have remained 
moderate and more stable in Southwest Pennsylvania (consistently under 
$5 per MMBtu), where abundant supplies have adequate pipeline outlets 
to serve peak demand.
    Growth in U.S. natural gas is driven by LNG exports, data center 
growth, electrification, and a general increase in energy consumption. 
Lower-48 gas demand growth driven by LNG exports is expected to more 
than double by 2030, with an additional 13.2 Bcf/d of growth expected 
from 2024-2030.\ii\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \ii\ Source: Wood Mackenzie North America Gas, Investment Horizon 
Outlook, November 2024.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Electricity demand is also experiencing 10 times faster growth per 
year this decade than what was seen in previous decades, driven by the 
energy needs of artificial intelligence and the emergence of new, 
large-load data centers. U.S. data center power demand is expected to 
more than double from about 22 GW in 2023 to 45 GW in 2030 per S&P base 
case, requiring as much as 4 Bcf/d of incremental gas demand. It is 
notable, however, that this new technology's demand needs could be 
underestimated. If combined-cycle gas-fired generation provided 100 
percent of the electricity for the range of forecasts already 
presented, it could translate into incremental U.S. demand for power as 
high as 12 Bcf/day.
    This growing demand cannot be met by intermittent resources such as 
wind and solar. In fact, excluding this forecasted growth, to replace 
the energy supplied by natural gas to New York's homes and businesses 
in February 2023 alone, New York would need 285 times more utility 
scale solar installations than the state had in 2022 and enough solar 
panels to cover 549,000 football fields. And it would require $1 
trillion in solar construction costs.\iii\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \iii\ Williams' analysis utilizing data from S&P Global Platts, US 
Energy Information Administration, Environmental Protection Agency and 
National Renewable Energy Laboratory. To replace the natural gas Btus 
that NY state's residential/commercial customers used on 02/3/2023, it 
would take 285x more utility scale solar installations than the state 
had in 2022.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Additionally, Americans cannot rely on intermittent wind and solar 
to meet demand during peak hours or extended weather events. The U.S. 
saw record high power demand in 2023, averaging 35.2 Bcf/d (2.1 Bcf/d 
higher than in 2022), even as wind and solar grew. And peak day demand 
for natural gas hit a record high of 54.8 Bcf/d in August of 2024, 
highlighting the continued need for reliable natural gas to meet peak 
day needs and back up intermittent resources.
    Peak day gas demand for power generation is expected to increase 
across all major Independent System Operators (ISO), due to the growth 
in electrification, artificial intelligence (AI), and data center 
growth.

    America Needs More Pipelines to Meet Growing Demands and Ensure 
                           National Security
                           
    Data centers driving advancements in artificial intelligence will 
be built overseas if we do not build the critical energy infrastructure 
required to support their operations here. The U.S. has the abundant 
energy resources to meet this need, but a byzantine permitting system 
coupled with fervent opposition to human advancement from activist 
groups makes building infrastructure unnecessarily challenging. To 
ensure America's long-term competitiveness, Congress must prioritize 
permitting reform.
    Demand for natural gas has increased 43 percent since 2013, while 
the capacity of infrastructure to support the demand has only grown 25 
percent. Without action, the gap between demand and physical 
infrastructure will grow as AI tools become more critical to the U.S. 
in a competitive world marketplace. This gap will continue to impact 
reliability and affordability and harm American consumers.
    It generally takes our industry about nine months to build a large 
natural gas pipeline safely and in a way that has little environmental 
footprint, but it can take years to get a project approved by 
government agencies. America's permitting system is labyrinthian by any 
reasonable measure, requiring projects to receive duplicative approvals 
from dozens of federal and state agencies.
    Beyond the permitting process, there are also significant 
litigation risks from groups weaponizing regulatory loopholes and 
misusing environmental statutes to delay and cancel projects. Virtually 
every pipeline project encounters these costly and time-consuming 
delays. It has become a feature of the system.
    There are three key steps to streamlining the regulatory process 
that Congress can take to help ensure that we have the infrastructure 
needed to meet growing energy demands:
    1.  Policymakers need to empower the Federal Energy Regulatory 
Commission (FERC). Currently, a single activist state can block a 
proposed interstate natural gas project, regardless of the benefits it 
would bring, through an abuse of the Clean Water Act's section 401 
review process. FERC already considers water quality issues as a part 
of its National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA) analysis, so bringing 
the section 401 review process under FERC would create efficiencies and 
prevent any one state from obstructing interstate commerce.

    2.  Congress needs to reform judicial review, providing for the 
courts to fairly review the actions and decisions of govemment 
agencies, such as the Bureau of Land Management (BLM), the 
Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), and FERC, to cut back on lawfare 
that leaves good projects languishing for months, if not years. The 
best way to accomplish this reform is to alter the evidentiary standard 
to provide greater durability for federal authorizations and principled 
guard rails to ensure challenges of the authorization are based on 
evidence, not harmless gaps in the administrative process. A challenge 
should only be successful if its proponent is able to present evidence 
that establishes clearly and convincingly that a permit authorization 
was improper. Otherwise, the authorization should stand.

    3.  Lastly, but equally as important, is fixing the remedy allowed 
under the NEPA, the procedural statute that is wrongly being used to 
delay, deny, and cancel energy infrastructure. NEPA litigation should 
be limited to the purpose of the statute--to inform the public, Defects 
in a NEPA analysis should only result in further disclosures, not in 
unduly delaying or cancelling a project.

    These reforms would allow interstate natural gas pipelines, as well 
as other energy infrastructure, to be built to meet demand. We must 
come together to ensure the Clean Water Act, NEPA, and judicial review 
of agency decisions are working for the American people--not preventing 
progress and competitiveness in the name of politics.

              Weaponization of Clean Water Act Section 401
              
    Section 401 of the Clean Water Act applies to all energy and 
infrastructure projects that require a federal permit and which may 
cause a discharge to a water of the United States. Pursuant to section 
401, states and tribes are required to either certify that a project is 
protective of water quality or waive the certification requirement. 
Section 401 allows state and tribal participation in federal permitting 
procedures that may otherwise exclude or preempt such input. The 
certification process must be completed before a federal permit may be 
issued.
    Each year, thousands of federal permit applications are submitted 
for projects that will require section 401 certifications, including 
traditional energy projects and new critical infrastructure that will 
drive the deployment of lower carbon emission energy sources. For 
example, an energy infrastructure project that impacts a federal 
wetland or water requires authorization from the Army Corps of 
Engineers under CWA section 404 or the Rivers and Harbors Act section 9 
or 10. Annually, the Army Corps issues nearly 3,500 individual permits 
and authorizes more than 50,000 projects under general permits. Every 
single Army Corps individual permit, and many general permits, require 
a section 401 certification. Army Corps-permitted projects include 
large wind and solar generation, new transmission lines to bring remote 
renewable generation to load centers, and critical minerals exploration 
and mining that is essential to support the burgeoning battery storage 
and electric vehicle economies.
    Additionally, the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission issues 44 
federal licenses, and EPA issues 125 federal discharge permits 
annually. Most, if not all, of these permits also require a section 401 
certification.
    Ambiguous language in the statute, along with a lack of federal 
oversight, has led to confusion over the scope, timing, and procedures 
that are applicable to section 401 certifications. These circumstances 
have also led some states to interpret the section 401 authority very 
broadly and to delay certification decisions for years or even decades. 
While most states focus their section 401 review on potential water 
quality impacts, as the Clean Water Act requires, some states have used 
the section 401 program to veto projects that do not align with, for 
example, state energy policy. Similarly, while most states act on a 
certification request within the statutory one-year period, some states 
have adopted practices, like withdraw-and-resubmit procedures, and 
denials without prejudice, that result in a years-long or decades-long 
certification process. These ambiguities create opportunities for bad 
faith project delay and veto of interstate projects.
    As The Wall Street Journal reported, ``pipeline projects have been 
blocked that would deliver gas from prolific shale-gas fields in 
Pennsylvania, Ohio, and West Virginia.'' Williams has some specific 
examples of how CWA section 401 has been weaponized against pipeline 
projects.

 Constitution and NESE Pipeline Delays Resulted in Higher Costs, Lost 
                    Economic Output in the Northeast
                    
    The Cuomo administration's denial of the water quality permits 
needed for the Constitution pipeline project blocked jobs, decreased 
tax revenue, and increased emissions in economically challenged areas. 
In addition, this denial has placed the region's grid reliability at 
risk.
    The $683 million Constitution project was to bring natural gas from 
the Marcellus Shale in Susquehanna County, Pennsylvania, to Schoharie 
County, New York, where it would have connected to two existing 
interstate natural gas pipelines (Iroquois Gas Transmission and 
Tennessee Gas Pipeline) that directly serve New York and New England. 
The U.S. Chamber of Commerce found that the delay of the Constitution 
Pipeline had resulted in $3.9 billion in loss economic output and over 
23,000 job-years of work for the region.
    Water quality permits are to be granted or denied within one year, 
but the Constitution Pipeline endured New York's repeated delays of its 
Clean Water Act Section 401 certificate application based on meritless 
claims related to the ``completeness of the application.'' These delays 
were compounded by New York's efforts to restart the one-year shot 
clock every time a new submission was made.
    Specifically, in 2014, New York requested that Constitution 
rescind, update, and resubmit its application. In 2015, the New York 
State Department of Environmental Conservation (NYDEC) requested the 
company do so again. In 2016, two years after its initial receipt, New 
York denied the application claiming it lacked ``sufficient information 
to enable the Department to determine if the Application demonstrates 
compliance'' with New York water quality standards. In the wake of 
Hoopa Valley and associated precedents around Millennium Pipeline, on 
August 28, 2019 the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission (FERC) 
confirmed that New York had waived its CWA section 401 authorities 
through its dilatory requests for more information. Unfortunately, 
eight years of arbitrary regulatory and litigation delays, along with 
changing market conditions, prompted the project sponsors to pull the 
plug on the project on February 21, 2020.
    Northeast Supply Enhancement (NESE), another project killed by New 
York based on meritless water quality grounds, serves as another 
example. New York first denied NESE's water quality permit on May 15, 
2019, and then did so again on May 16, 2020, after a resubmittal. New 
Jersey followed suit. Though the Cuomo Administration previously 
expressed concerns over climate impacts, Governor Andrew Cuomo sent a 
letter to National Grid saying that it should pursue more emissions-
intensive and less safe means of delivering natural gas like trucks, 
barges, and ships, rather than pipelines. Despite his administration 
blocking a pipeline meant to expand service to New York customers and 
reduce reliance on higher emitting energy sources, he demanded that 
National Grid find alternatives or lose its franchise in the New York 
City metropolitan area. Without pipelines, New York state and local 
officials need to ``grapple with the potential need for new trucked gas 
supplies and associated infrastructure, as well as the risk for supply 
disruptions and moratoriums in coming years.''--Politico, 2020xiii
    Without changes to section 401 that provide greater clarity and 
regulatory certainty, the literally thousands of energy infrastructure 
projects subject to section 401 each year could also be subject to the 
weaponization of section 401.

 Conclusion: Congress can Provide Much-Needed Certainty for Permitting 
                                Projects
                                
    Congress can instill certainty and spur increased investment of 
capital in American energy infrastructure, unleashing a renaissance in 
American manufacturing and an advancement of national security, all 
with American energy resources.
    Pipelines power America, and our country and its citizens have 
received the benefits of this large-scale infrastructure for years. We 
should not take this historical benefit for granted and let competing 
countries rapidly build out their own infrastructure, while our 
permitting system continues to stifle ours. The timing is perfect for 
meaningful permitting reform that includes pipelines.
    Real permitting reform will put the U.S. on a path to meet the 
ever-growing need for energy and a path to achieve human flourishing. 
The changes will cost taxpayers nothing while paying a world of 
dividends.
            Sincerely,
                                            T. Lane Wilson,
   Sr. Vice President and General Counsel, The Williams Companies, 
                                                               Inc.

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