[House Hearing, 119 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
ANTI-AMERICAN AIRWAVES:
HOLDING THE HEADS OF NPR AND PBS
ACCOUNTABLE
=======================================================================
HEARING
before the
SUBCOMMITTEE ON DELIVERING ON
GOVERNMENT EFFICIENCY
of the
COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT
AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
__________
MARCH 26, 2025
__________
Serial No. 119-14
__________
Printed for the use of the Committee on Oversight and Government Reform
[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Available on: govinfo.gov
oversight.house.gov or
docs.house.gov
______
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
59-845 PDF WASHINGTON : 2025
COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
JAMES COMER, Kentucky, Chairman
Jim Jordan, Ohio Gerald E. Connolly, Virginia,
Mike Turner, Ohio Ranking Minority Member
Paul Gosar, Arizona Eleanor Holmes Norton, District of
Virginia Foxx, North Carolina Columbia
Glenn Grothman, Wisconsin Stephen F. Lynch, Massachusetts
Michael Cloud, Texas Raja Krishnamoorthi, Illinois
Gary Palmer, Alabama Ro Khanna, California
Clay Higgins, Louisiana Kweisi Mfume, Maryland
Pete Sessions, Texas Shontel Brown, Ohio
Andy Biggs, Arizona Melanie Stansbury, New Mexico
Nancy Mace, South Carolina Robert Garcia, California
Pat Fallon, Texas Maxwell Frost, Florida
Byron Donalds, Florida Summer Lee, Pennsylvania
Scott Perry, Pennsylvania Greg Casar, Texas
William Timmons, South Carolina Jasmine Crockett, Texas
Tim Burchett, Tennessee Emily Randall, Washington
Marjorie Taylor Greene, Georgia Suhas Subramanyam, Virginia
Lauren Boebert, Colorado Yassamin Ansari, Arizona
Anna Paulina Luna, Florida Wesley Bell, Missouri
Nick Langworthy, New York Lateefah Simon, California
Eric Burlison, Missouri Dave Min, California
Eli Crane, Arizona Ayanna Pressley, Massachusetts
Brian Jack, Georgia Rashida Tlaib, Michigan
John McGuire, Virginia
Brandon Gill, Texas
------
Mark Marin, Staff Director
James Rust, Deputy Staff Director
Mitch Benzine, General Counsel
Peter Warren, Senior Advisor
Lisa Piraneo, Senior Professional Staff Member
Billy Grant, Professional Staff Member
Mallory Cogar, Deputy Director of Operations and Chief Clerk
Contact Number: 202-225-5074
Jamie Smith, Minority Staff Director
Contact Number: 202-225-5051
------
Subcommittee on Delivering on Government Efficiency
Marjorie Taylor Greene, Georgia, Chairwoman
Michael Cloud, Texas Melanie Stansbury, New Mexico
Pat Fallon, Texas Ranking Minority Member
William Timmons, South Carolina Eleanor Holmes Norton, District of
Tim Burchett, Tennessee Columbia
Eric Burlison, Missouri Stephen Lynch, Massachussetts
Brian Jack, Georgia Robert Garcia, California
Brandon Gill, Texas Greg Casar, Texas
Jasmine Crockett, Texas
C O N T E N T S
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Page
Hearing held on March 26, 2025................................... 1
Witnesses
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Ms. Katherine Maher, Chief Executive Officer and President,
National Public Radio
Oral Statement................................................... 6
Ms. Paula A. Kerger, President and Chief Executive Officer,
Public Broadcasting Service
Oral Statement................................................... 7
Mr. Michael Gonzalez, Angeles T. Arredondo E Pluribus Unum Senior
Fellow, The Heritage Foundation
Oral Statement................................................... 9
Mr. Ed Ulman (Minority Witness), President and CEO, Alaska Public
Media
Oral Statement................................................... 11
Written opening statements and bios are available on the U.S.
House of Representatives Document Repository at:
docs.house.gov.
Index of Documents
----------
* Rural Sign-On Statement, Multiple Public Radio Stations;
submitted by Rep. Connolly.
* Statement for the Record, DPE AFL-CIO; submitted by Rep.
Connolly.
* Statement for the Record, ETV South Carolina Statement;
submited by Rep. Conolly.
* Statement for the Record, Gassiott TPR; submitted by Rep.
Connolly.
* Statement for the Record, KANW; submitted by Rep. Connolly.
* Statement for the Record, KENW TV & FM; submitted by Rep.
Connolly.
* Statement for the Record, KERA; submitted by Rep. Connolly.
* Statement for the Record, KRPS; submitted by Rep. Connolly.
* Statement for the Record, Ozarks Public Broadcasting
Statement; sbmitted by Rep. Connolly.
* Statement for the Record, SCPR; submitted by Rep. Connolly.
* Statement for the Record, Tim Franklin - Medill School of
Journalism; submitted by Rep. Connolly.
* Statement for the Record, TPR Board; submitted by Rep.
Connolly.
* Statement for the Record, WABE; submitted by Rep. Connolly.
* Statement for the Record, WAMU; submitted by Rep. Connolly.
* Statement for the Record, WBUR; submitted by Rep. Connolly.
INDEX OF DOCUMENTS
----------
* Statement for the Record, WEKU; submitted by Rep. Connolly.
* Statement for the Record, WNIN Radio and TV; submitted by
Rep. Connolly.
* Statement for the Record, WTIP; submitted by Rep. Connolly.
* Representative Statement Letter, Mike Gonzalez; submitted by
Rep. Greene.
* Article, The Free Press, ``NPR Editor Uri Berliner: Here's
How We Lost America's Trust''; submitted by Rep. Cloud.
* Press Release, FEMA, 2019 Report; submitted by Rep. Crockett.
* Article, NPR, ``What Biden's preemptive pardons for family
members could mean for presidential powers''; submitted by Rep.
Garcia.
* Article, Free Press, ``Uri Berliner: NPR Should Refuse to
Take Federal Funds''; submitted by Rep. Greene.
* Rural Sign-On Statement, Multiple Public Radio Stations;
submitted by Rep. Lynch.
* Statement for the Record, GPB; submitted by Rep. Lynch.
* Statement for the Record, WKMS; submitted by Rep. Lynch.
Documents are available at: docs.house.gov.
ANTI-AMERICAN AIRWAVES:
HOLDING THE HEADS OF NPR AND PBS
ACCOUNTABLE
----------
Wednesday, March 26, 2025
U.S. House of Representatives
Committee on Oversight and Government Reform
Subcommittee on Delivering on Government Efficiency
Washington, D.C.
The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:05 a.m., in
room HVC-210, Capitol Visitors Center, Hon. Marjorie Taylor
Greene [Chairwoman of the Subcommittee] presiding.
Present: Representatives Greene, Comer, Cloud, Fallon,
Timmons, Burchett, Burlison, Jack, Gill, Norton, Lynch, Garcia,
Casar, and Crockett.
Also present: Representatives Jordan, Khanna, and Randall.
Ms. Greene. This hearing of the Subcommittee on Delivering
on Government Efficiency will come to order. Welcome, everyone.
Without objection, the Chair may declare a recess at any
time.
I recognize myself for the purpose of making an opening
statement.
Good morning. At the DOGE Subcommittee we are continuing
our war on waste. That means rooting out spending that is
unnecessary, wasteful, and, frankly, un-American. Today, we are
looking at the more than half a billion dollars Federal
taxpayers spend annually to fund public radio and television. A
big chunk of this subsidy flows to National Public Radio and
Public Broadcasting Service.
NPR and PBS are the big D.C.-based entities that create and
distribute much of the news and educational content heard and
seen on public radio and TV stations across the country. When
Congress adopted the Public Broadcasting Act of 1967, it did so
because it thought at the time that Federal dollars were needed
to provide objective news and education content to the entire
Nation, including rural residents who lived ``off the grid.''
Fast forward a few decades, and a lot has changed. The
invention of the internet, for instance, and social media, it
has made news and information widely available to those living
in remote areas. Americans are increasingly consuming digital
media and podcasts. The audience of public radio and television
is declining, and I know this because I represent a rural
district where farmers listen to podcasts and internet-based
news while they drive their tractors.
At the same time, NPR and PBS have increasingly become
radical, left-wing echo chambers for a narrow audience of
mostly wealthy, White, urban liberals and progressives who
generally look down on and judge rural America. PBS News is not
just left-leaning, but it actively uses taxpayer funds to push
some of the most radical left positions, like featuring a drag
queen on the show, ``Let's Learn,'' a show targeted toward
young children ages three to eight years old.
I want you to know I grew up watching children's
programming on PBS, and as a mother who raised three children,
I felt confident that I could leave the room while my own
children were watching children's programming on PBS. But I can
tell you right now, Ms. Kerger, specifically, as a mother, if I
had walked in my living room or one of my children's bedrooms
and seen this child predator and this monster targeting my
children, I would have become unglued, and that is how most
parents feel all over this country.
This is not the only example of them sexualizing and
grooming children. They have been doing it for over the last
decade. In 2015, PBS-produced Frontline put out a documentary,
``Growing Up Trans,'' that takes viewers on an intimate and
eye-opening journey inside the struggles and choices facing
transgender kids and their families. This means that PBS is one
of the founders of the trans child abuse industry, all while
taking taxpayer money. Brainwashing and transing children is an
issue so hated by parents across the country that it was a
driving force in the landslide Republican and Trump victory in
the 2024 election cycle and Presidential race.
The news that these entities produce is either resented or
increasingly tuned out and turned off by most of the
hardworking Americans who are forced to pay for it. They no
longer view NPR and PBS as trusted news sources. As a matter of
fact, with these people, they are a threat. In fact, when Elon
Musk put his hand over his heart and extended it and told the
American people his heart goes out to them, PBS News posted the
clip, called it a fascist Nazi salute, and described how it was
similar to the same ``heil'' used by Nazis at their victory
rallies. Not once did PBS or NPR report on the numerous
accounts of Democrats making the same gesture: AOC, Kamala
Harris, Barack Obama, Elizabeth Warren, somebody that lost a
Presidential race, Hillary Clinton, Governor Tim Walz. Why
wasn't this treated exactly the same way? Is there not a
standard in journalism today? Apparently not.
``Here is How We Lost America's Trust,'' was, in fact, the
title of a powerful essay written last year by Uri Berliner, a
veteran NPR editor. In his essay, Berliner described how NPR's
downward spiral accelerated greatly during the first Trump
Administration. He said NPR dedicated efforts to damage the
Trump presidency via relentless pursuit of Russiagate rumors
that the Trump campaign colluded with Russia over the election.
NPR hosts interviewed Adam Schiff, then the top Democrat of the
House Intelligence Committee, 25 times about Trump and Russia,
but they made no apologies when the Mueller Report found no
evidence that the Trump Campaign had colluded with Russia,
because they did not.
Berliner also described NPR's passionate embrace of the
left-wing DEI ideology that Americans clearly reject, as
evidenced by the November elections. NPR's language and style
guides were shaped by race and gender-based affinity groups
that dominated the internal culture of the organization, and
NPR journalists were to ask everyone they interviewed their
race, gender, and ethnicity and enter it into a centralized
tracking system. This tracking system embeds DEI into the
fibers of its content. Sounds like racism to me. It is a
software attached to NPR's content management system where
these reporters and producers submit information about their
source's race and ethnicity, gender identity, geographic
location--that is kind of scary--and age range. The tool allows
NPR to track the demographics of their sources in real time to
allow for source diversity. The irony of these supposed diverse
sources is that NPR has no interest, real interest, in
diversity, like having diverse viewpoints.
Berliner tried to sound the alarm on this when he checked
voter registration records of the editors at D.C.'s NPR
headquarters and found 87 registered Democrats and zero
registered Republicans, but NPR treated Berliner like a
political dissident in the old Soviet Union. He was driven out
of the organization and forced to resign. Sounds like
communism. And the ringleader of that effort was NPR's then
newly appointed CEO, Katherine Maher, who is before us today.
She dismissed Mr. Berliner's wake-up call as profoundly
disrespectful, hurtful, and demeaning. In other words, instead
of viewing it as a chance to finally right the ship at NPR, she
doubled down. In doing so, she made it clear how any further
internal dissent would be dealt with on her watch. That does
sound like communist China at the taxpayer's expense.
And no one should be surprised. NPR installed her in the
top job after Ms. Maher was firmly on record with a litany of
public comments and social media posts displaying her ultra-
progressive views, her scorn for free speech, and her fondness
for censorship. So, now it is up to Congress to determine if
Americans are going to continue to provide her and the
organization that put her in charge willingly, after they knew
these things, with taxpayer funds to continue to pursue their
progressive, or rather, communist agenda. For far too long
Federal taxpayers have been forced to fund biased news. This
needs to come to an end, and it needs to come to an end now.
So, I am glad Ms. Maher and Ms. Kerger accepted our invitation
to show up today and be held accountable to the taxpayers. I
look forward to them answering our questions in full public
view and explaining to the American people why they think they
deserve Americans' hard-earned taxpayer money.
I request unanimous consent that Representative Jim Jordan
from Ohio, Representative Ro Khanna from California,
Representative Emily Randall from Washington be waived on to
today's hearing for the purpose of asking questions.
Without objection, so ordered.
And with that, I yield to Ranking Member Lynch for his
opening statement.
Mr. Lynch. Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to thank the
witnesses for your willingness to come forward and offer your
advice and testimony to this Committee.
Madam Chair, for over 2 decades of service on this
Oversight Committee, I have worked with Members on both sides
of the aisle to investigate issues of critical importance to
the safety and security of the American people, including the
conduct of wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, terrorist attacks
against the U.S. compound classified annex in Benghazi, and
several major intelligence and security breaches under
Democratic and Republican administrations. So, I am sad to see
that this once-proud Committee, the principal investigative
committee in the House of Representatives, has now stooped to
the lowest levels of partisanship and political theater to hold
a hearing to go after the likes of Elmo and Cookie Monster and
Arthur the Aardvark, all for the unforgivable sin of teaching
the alphabet to low-income families' children and providing
accessible local news and programming.
This hearing also comes at the direction of President Trump
and Elon Musk, who have repeatedly called for the defunding of
all public media and claimed that media organizations, such as
PBS and NPR, are ``a liberal disinformation machine.''
Meanwhile, the Trump Administration is engaged in an actual
disinformation campaign to minimize the catastrophic national
security breach that was revealed earlier this week. As
reported by Atlantic editor-in-chief, Jeffrey Goldberg, Mr.
Goldberg was inadvertently added to a group chat on an
unauthorized, non-secure, publicly available message app in
which Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth disclosed ``operational
details of forthcoming strikes on Yemen,'' including
information about targets, weapon systems, and other actions
the U.S. would be taking, and also attack sequencing.
I want to remind my colleagues in Congress that Federal law
makes it a crime when a person, through gross negligence,
removes information relating to national defense from its
proper place of custody or deliver to anyone in violation of
this trust, ought to be lost, stolen, or abstracted, or
destroyed. And what is more, if evidence shows that any of the
parties who were in on that Signal chat lied under oath in the
Senate yesterday, Mr. Ratcliffe or Ms. Gabbard, for instance,
then certainly conspiracy to conceal that breach would be far
worse where censure or criminal intent is in evidence, and
would be more likely to invite culpability and possible
criminal liability. The Secretary of Defense would be subject
to criminal prosecution, and it would be the responsibility of
the U.S. Attorney General to prosecute that, but where a
conflict exists, it might require a special prosecutor.
This security breach severely compromised the safety of
American troops in advance of imminent U.S. operations and
airstrikes against Houthi rebel positions. It is well
documented that the Houthi arsenal includes anti-aircraft
capability, ballistic missiles, cruise missiles, rockets, and
unmanned aerial attack drones. Mr. Goldberg, who was
unwittingly elevated to the clearance level afforded to members
of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, was also joined in the exposed
group chat by Vice President J.D. Vance, Secretary of State
Marco Rubio, and National Security Advisor Mike Waltz, and
other senior members of President Trump's national security
team. This Committee should be questioning every single one of
them as to why they were using an unapproved, unsecure
messaging app to conduct sensitive classified discussions about
military operations in which our sons and daughters in uniform
are being sent into battle.
One of the participants was actually sitting in Russia--
sitting in Russia--using an unsecure app, and every Member of
this Committee knows what that means. We have all been advised
about which apps are secure and insecure and when it is
appropriate to engage in non-critical discussions. As former
Chairman of our Subcommittee on National security, I recall a
time when just the potential for a security breach that could
expose American troops and intelligence personnel to
unnecessary danger would immediately trigger hearings and bring
this Committee to a lather on both sides. But you can bet we
will not be touching this issue because, today, the controlling
House Majority is afraid to do its job. It is afraid to hold
Trump and Trump's Administration accountable. They would rather
post up against Big Bird than deal with that issue.
In reference to public media, Elon Musk recently asked
should your tax dollars really be paying for an organization
run by people who think the truth is a distraction. Well, I
would say the same about the current Administration and its
proliferation of disinformation, from claims that Ukraine
started its own invasion, to Secretary Hegseth's assertion that
no one was texting war plans. You can read the text today
because yesterday in the hearing they said it was not
classified information. So, you can actually go on The New York
Times website and read the text that was discussed in advance
of our military operations in Yemen.
Madam Chair, if shame was still a thing, this hearing would
be shameful, and I yield back the balance of my time.
Ms. Greene. I am pleased to introduce our witnesses today.
Paula Kerger is the President and Chief Executive Officer of
the Public Broadcasting Service, also known as PBS. Katherine
Maher is the President and Chief Executive Officer of National
Public Radio, also known as NPR. Mike Gonzalez is the Angeles
T. Arredondo E Pluribus Unum senior fellow at the Heritage
Foundation. Ed Ulman is the President and CEO of Alaska Public
Media. Again, I want to thank you all for being here to testify
today.
Pursuant to Committee Rule 9(g), the witnesses will please
stand and raise their right hand.
Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony that you
are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God?
[A chorus of ayes.]
Ms. Greene. Let the record show that the witnesses answered
in the affirmative. Thank you. You may take a seat. We
appreciate you being here today and look forward to your
testimony.
Let me remind the witnesses that we have read your written
statement, and it will appear in full in the hearing record.
Please limit your oral statement to 5 minutes. As a reminder,
please press the button on the microphone in front of you so
that it is on and the Members can hear you. When you begin to
speak, the light in front of you will turn green. After 4
minutes, the light will turn yellow. When the red light comes
on, your 5 minutes have expired, and we would ask that you
please do your best to wrap up.
I now recognize Katherine Maher for her opening statement.
STATEMENT OF KATHERINE MAHER
CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER AND PRESIDENT
NATIONAL PUBLIC RADIO
Ms. Maher. Chairwoman Greene, Ranking Member Lynch, and
distinguished Members of the Subcommittee, my name is Katherine
Maher, and I am the President and CEO of National Public Radio
and I welcome the opportunity to discuss the essential role of
public media in delivering unbiased, nonpartisan, fact-based
reporting to Americans.
Americans listen to public radio as they commute, as they
work, and in the kitchen as they cook with family. Nearly 100
percent of Americans live within range of a public radio
station. We cover what matters to local communities--crop
prices, cook-offs, and local sports teams--alongside news of
the Nation and the world, from the halls of Congress to
coverage of our troops overseas. Today, Americans have more
media choices than ever. The rise of podcasting has established
a competitive free market for audio news and information, and
every day I am honored to know that we have 43 million
listeners from every state in the Nation.
Amidst this competition, local stations choose to become
members of NPR for the value we provide. For example, we are
the only non-paywalled news outlet with a dedicated reporter
covering veterans' issues. While NPR is only 25 percent of
station programming on average, audiences for NPR bring the
scale and revenue that subsidize essential local programming.
Local public media journalism has never been more important to
American families who consider it part of the fabric of their
communities. It correlates with higher rates of civic
engagement, greater civic cohesion, and economic advantages,
such as better municipal bond ratings. Recent independent
polling found that more than 60 percent of all Americans, and
more than half of Republicans, trust public broadcasting to
deliver fact-based news.
I understand the Subcommittee has questions about funding
for NPR and public radio. The vast majority of Federal dollars,
more than $100 million of the $121 million annual appropriation
for public radio, goes directly to 386 local non-commercial
stations across the Nation. This highly efficient investment
enables your local stations to raise an average of $7 for every
Federal dollar.
As a grantee of the Corporation for Public Broadcasting,
NPR received Federal funding of $11.2 million last year. These
funds allow us to maintain the National Public Radio Satellite
System, helping safeguard our national security, civil defense,
and disaster response, and enabling public radio to reach every
corner of America. Additionally, these funds help protect
journalists covering our troops overseas and reverse the
decline of local journalism.
As a recipient of Federal funds, it is our responsibility
to answer legitimate questions about why public funds should go
to NPR, whether we are truly committed to serving all
Americans, and whether the institution is an effective steward
of taxpayer dollars. I hear, respect, and understand your
concerns regarding bias and whether public media is relevant in
a commercial landscape, and I would like to spend a minute
sharing with you my actions to address your concerns.
First, it is critical for NPR's newsroom to operate with
the highest journalistic standards. That means that they do
their jobs independently, and as CEO, I have no editorial role
at NPR. In other words, I do not decide what we cover or how we
cover it. I lead NPR's strategy, ensuring we have resources and
policies in place to serve all Americans, not just those with a
specific point of view. I was brought into NPR to revive and
reorient the organization and bring public media to a wider
audience, a new generation, and new platforms. We have a
responsibility to serve Americans across the full political
spectrum in a trustworthy, nonpartisan fashion. It is essential
that we deliver on this commitment, and we have work to do, and
we are doing it.
In May, we launched an initiative to improve our editorial
review processes to make sure all pieces are fair and
comprehensive. We hired new editors and analysts to ensure we
are giving fair airtime to different voices and issues. We
started regular meetings with our nearly 200 local newsrooms so
we can plan together for the needs of their audiences, and the
early results are positive. Our digital platforms, where we
have the best data about our listeners, the political beliefs
of our visitors mirror the makeup of the country across the
ideological spectrum, and we are seeing growth in readers and
listeners.
I joined NPR because I believe that our strong and dynamic
Nation deserves great public media for all. Americans are smart
and curious, and they want us to cover issues that matter, from
the price of eggs to national security. It is our job to
deliver truthful facts and information so citizens can make up
their own minds. I believe Americans voted for a transformative
administration, and it is our responsibility to cover that
transformation fairly, with integrity, and tenacity.
I have been CEO for 1 year and 1 day. I have made changes
to leadership and planning, invested in editorial integrity,
committed to expanding our audiences and our relevance for all
Americans. While we have taken significant steps in the right
direction, the journey cannot be completed overnight. Given the
support that 75 percent of Americans have for public media, I
ask Congress to give us the opportunity to continue to serve
the American public. I will invite you to listen with a fresh
ear, and to that end, our newsroom invites you to join us on
air, and I welcome your questions.
Ms. Greene. Thank you, Ms. Maher. I now recognize Paula
Kerger for her opening statement.
STATEMENT OF PAULA KERGER
PRESIDENT AND CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER
PUBLIC BROADCASTING SERVICE
Ms. Kerger. Chair Taylor Greene, Congressman Lynch, and
Members of the Subcommittee, my name is Paula Kerger, and I am
the President and CEO of PBS, a role that I have held for 19
years. It is my honor to be here on behalf of the 336 PBS
stations who serve every community in the United States.
There is nothing more American than PBS. As a membership
organization, our local service is at the heart of our work.
Our job at PBS is to support our stations so that local
stations can serve their communities. We have been proudly
fulfilling our mission for nearly 60 years, using the public
airwaves and other technologies to help educate, engage, and
inspire the American people. That mission is our guide star and
remains just as important today as when the Public Broadcasting
Act was signed into law in 1967.
PBS stations provide something that cannot be found on
commercial networks. This is because PBS stations are focused
on the needs and interests of the viewers they serve,
especially in rural areas. PBS stations are the only outlet
providing coverage of local events, for example, high school
sports, local history and culture content, candidate debates at
every level of the election ballot, and specialized
agricultural news. Local stations also partner with other
community organizations to address issues of concern like
veterans' affairs and the opioid crisis.
Finally, communities depend on the essential public safety
information and emergency alerts our local stations provide.
Our programming comes from our local stations. For example,
``Southern Storytellers'' was produced by Arkansas PBS for our
national audience. This program highlighted Southern culture
through its literature, music, and film. Across the country,
nearly 4 million people watch ``Southern Storytellers'',
helping Americans learn about our shared history and what
brings us together as a people and a Nation.
Our stations pool resources to invest in programming that
will benefit all Americans, ranging from history and science to
art and music. For example, ``Firing Line with Margaret
Hoover'' creates a forum for people with a wide range of views
to respectfully share ideas, while programs like Independent
Lenses' ``Matter of Mind: My Alzheimer's'' explores the
challenges facing many American families. And we celebrate what
makes our country great. ``A Capital Fourth'' and the
``National Memorial Day Concert'' honor our Nation's ideals,
our servicemembers and our veterans. Looking ahead, we will
mark our Nation's 250th birthday with a landmark initiative
headlined by a new major series from Ken Burns, ``The American
Revolution''.
Our educational programming for children is one of the most
important aspects of our service to the American people. I
strongly believe that the programming we offer to prepare
children for the future is the most essential work that we do.
Today, more than half of all preschool-aged children are not
enrolled in pre-kindergarten programs. Our content has helped
tens of millions of children prepare for success in school and
in life with free programming that is available everywhere
children are, on air, online, and in the classroom. Our
educational programming is backed by scores of research studies
showing that our programs, like ``Daniel Tiger's Neighborhood''
and ``Super Why!'' help kids develop essential skills like
reading, math, and problem solving.
We are proud that nearly 9 out of 10 families agree that
PBS is the most trusted, safe, and educational media brand for
children. Because our programming is free and universally
available, we are able to reach more low-income families than
any other media company. In fact, our viewers overall reflect
the wide variety of communities we serve. Our audience mirrors
the overall U.S. population with respect to education, income,
and geography. Each month, over 160 million television and
online viewers explore the world through our trusted content,
and more than three-quarters of Americans feel that PBS
stations provide excellent value to their communities.
For over 2 decades, the American public has consistently
ranked public television as one of the best investments the
government makes. More than 70 percent of the CPB funds from
Congress go directly to our stations, and for every dollar of
that vital seed money, local stations raise seven to support
their work. This is one of the best, most successful examples
of a public-private partnership.
When I think about the need for our service, I think of a
man I met during a visit to a local station in Nebraska. He was
a rancher with young children, and he drove hours to attend a
local station event. He pulled me aside and told me this: ``We
need PBS. We do not live near a preschool. My children have
learned to read watching PBS shows, and the shows we watch on
PBS are our connection to the rest of America.'' That is why
PBS and the 336 local stations in your communities do what we
do. PBS programming and the services that local stations
provide bring Americans together. It is valued, needed, and
trusted by the American people.
I appreciate the opportunity to be here today, and I look
forward to your questions.
Ms. Greene. Thank you, Ms. Kerger. I now recognize Mike
Gonzalez for his opening statement.
STATEMENT OF MICHAEL GONZALEZ
ANGELES T. ARREDONDO E PLURIBUS UNUM SENIOR FELLOW
THE HERITAGE FOUNDATION
Mr. Gonzalez. Thank you, Chairwoman Taylor Greene, Ranking
Member Lynch, for allowing me to appear before you today.
My name is Mike Gonzalez. I am a Senior Fellow at The
Heritage Foundation. The views expressed are my own and should
not be construed as representing any official position of The
Heritage Foundation.
Before joining Heritage 16 years ago, I was a journalist
for many years. I worked in Latin America, Asia, and Europe,
traveled with the Mujahedeen in Afghanistan, was arrested in
Panama, witnessed China's takeover of Hong Kong, and covered
the stock market for The Wall Street Journal. I have even
covered high school sports. I know that journalists can keep
their prejudices in check, that is, if they want to. This
ability to give all sides a hearing becomes an even more
serious obligation when taxpayers are coerced to pay for you.
Yet NPR, PBS, and the other state broadcasters refuse to abide
by the simple code of decency. For decades, they have asked for
more money while telling conservatives to get lost. But the
Nation today is in a very different place, with $36 trillion in
debt, and more importantly, we are seeing not just a shift in
our cultural vibe, but a shift in societal paradigms. Through
their egregious bias, NPR and PBS have violated the public
trust. Public media needs to be defunded and the CPB needs to
be dissolved.
It is a matter of simple fairness. Multiple arguments can
be made. I will list just a few. We are deeply in debt. No. 2,
the arrangement is unfair to private sector media competitors.
No. 3, public broadcasting was created with the promise that it
would be educational, but now that thousands of competitors
have come online, public media has become, as George Will says,
like the human appendix, vestigial and purposeless. The funding
is a regressive tax, an obnoxious wealth transfer from working
families to the affluent, but the ultimate factor is the
broadcaster's unforgivable political bias. What we have today
is a circular undemocratic relationship. Democrats unanimously
vote for more and more money for public media, and, in
exchange, public media heavily tips the scale in their favor.
It is a nice arrangement for them, but it must end. NPR's and
PBS's full-hearted embrace of progressive views and constant
denigration of conservative ones is quantifiable.
Thank you. I refer you to my written testimony. Besides my
own examples, I cite the research of Tim Graham as well as NPR
veteran Uri Berliner, who says, ``An open-minded spirit no
longer exists within NPR.'' Rather than pause and reflect, NPR
instead chose to circle the wagons and assassinate Berliner's
character. This is part of a pattern. In 2010, NPR fired Juan
Williams and vilified him as a psycho after he dared to flout
the network's progressive orthodoxy. The people running NPR
remain, in Mr. Williams' words, an insulated cadre of people
who think they are right and who have a hard time with people
who are different. They went completely off the rails when
Donald Trump was elected in 2016. Coverage ``veered toward
efforts to topple the Trump presidency,'' Berliner said.
NPR hitched its wagon to the false claim that Russia had
colluded with the Trump campaign. It also refused to cover the
Hunter-Biden laptop story. After the 2020 riots, NPR firmly
sided with those who affirmed, without a shred of evidence,
that America is an oppressive society gripped by systemic
racism. NPR and PBS even justified looting. Rather than just
then use journalism as a truth-seeking tool, NPR and PBS
distorted journalism to further a political agenda. Yamiche
Alcindor, the liberal activist that PBS hired to cover the
White House, routinely used the platform to make
unsubstantiated allegations against President Trump. President
Biden, she presented as ``a moral and decent man.''
Consider Katherine Maher's appointment as NPR CEO. Her long
record of comments leave zero doubt that she is not only a
committed progressive, but someone whose disdain for free
expression disqualifies her from being anywhere close to the
levers of power at a media institution. And what does she think
of President Trump? He is ``a deranged, racist sociopath.'' Ms.
Maher is an American. She is entitled to her views. The
question is whether NPR is entitled to appoint her as CEO and
then ask conservatives to just pony up.
Public media's main argument now is that it is essential
for weather emergencies in hard-to-reach places and that
without public money, local news will cease to exist, but over
98 percent of Americans today have a mobile phone. Even Alaska,
one of our most isolated states, has high levels of internet
penetration. As for the claim that the taxpayer is the last
available business model for local news, NPR and PBS are asking
us to believe something laughable, that the government can fund
a media structure that actually keeps the government in check.
I urge you not to try to mend public broadcasting. End it.
Thank you very much for your attention, and I look forward
to your questions.
Ms. Greene. Thank you, Mr. Gonzalez. I now recognize Ed
Ulman for his opening statement.
STATEMENT OF ED ULMAN
PRESIDENT AND CEO
ALASKA PUBLIC MEDIA
Mr. Ulman. Madam Chair, Ranking Member, and distinguished
Members of the Subcommittee, it is an honor to be here today.
My name is Ed Ulman. I am the President and CEO of Alaska
Public Media. The people of Alaska rely on public media to
provide free universal access to essential services in public
safety, education, and community connections. This includes
potentially lifesaving alerts, updates on community affairs,
coverage of state and local government, proven educational
content engagement services, and local and national news.
In many parts of Alaska and communities throughout the
country, public media is often the only locally operated,
locally controlled broadcasting service. We are more than nice
to have. We are essential, especially in remote and rural
places where commercial broadcasting cannot succeed. We provide
potentially lifesaving warnings and alerts that are crucial for
Alaskans who face threats ranging from extreme weather to
earthquakes, landslides, and even volcanoes. Nationwide, our
public television interconnection system supports the PBS
Warning Alert Response Network, a critical pathway for the
distribution of wireless energy emergency alerts to cell
phones.
Public television pioneered data casting technology to
enable public safety officials to communicate with each other
without the need for broadband or cell service. In partnership
with the Department of Homeland Security, public television has
proven how this technology can assist rural search and rescue,
over water communications, large event crowd control, and even
school safety incidents. Alaskans use our services to connect
to their communities and the broader world through access to
local public and government affairs, agricultural news, local
history and culture, as well as local and national educational
content and news. Our programming caters to and is informed by
the specific needs of the communities we serve.
Just to give a few examples, ``Indie Alaska'', an award-
winning series of documentaries, captures Alaska's people,
places, and their unique stories. ``Alaska Insight'' is a
weekly public affairs program that moves the conversation
beyond the headlines and right into Alaska's communities. Our
radio station hosts Alaska's only statewide call-in programs,
``Talk of Alaska'' and ``Line One: Your Health Connection''. We
reach across Alaska with these essential free services through
a statewide network consisting of four TV channels and one
radio station. We coordinate the only statewide news network
which includes 27 independent radio stations across Alaska, and
we operate the Alaska Rural Communication System, which
provides free over-the-air television and radio programming to
100 rural communities.
Alaska Public Media is one of more than 360 locally
controlled and operated public television stations and over
1,000 public radio stations throughout the country that provide
critical services to address the broad range of interest and
views of our local communities. These stations collectively
reach nearly 99 percent of the American public, regardless of
zip code or income level. This nationwide service would not be
possible without Federal support. Today, over 70 percent of the
Federal funds for the Corporation for Public Broadcasting go
directly to stations just like ours. Our system leverages this
crucial seed money seven times over in highly efficient public-
private partnerships.
Reducing or eliminating Federal funding would be
devastating and could cause the closure of many stations,
especially the most rural and remote.
Our highest costs come from maintaining broadcast and IT
infrastructure, local programming, and community engagement,
all of which would be in serious jeopardy without Federal
funding. Cuts to our national partners, PBS and NPR, would have
a similar impact, particularly in small and rural markets. The
broad range of news and educational programming that we receive
from these organizations is popular with Alaskans. Without this
national content, we would receive less local support,
endangering the local services we provide. This national-local
model efficiently leverages economies of scale and allows us to
provide the unique mix of local programming and national
content that Alaskans want.
Congress' support for the mission of public broadcasting,
to provide every American access to free, non-commercial,
quality educational programming, remains critical. It allows us
to connect Alaskans with each other and with our neighbors in
the lower 48 and to connect the Nation with us. I urge Congress
to maintain Federal funding for public broadcasting, to ensure
that local stations around the country can continue to provide
essential services to their local areas. I welcome your
questions.
Ms. Greene. Thank you, Mr. Ulman. I now recognize myself
for 5 minutes of questions.
Ms. Maher, your public statements and social media posts
reflect left-wing ideology and blatant opposition to free
speech. After all, you were the head of Wikipedia for many
years, which is a platform that does not tell the truth. Let us
walk through some of your statements so the public can
understand your personal views. You said your fellow Americans
just elected Donald Trump as President again this past
November. You called him ``a deranged racist and sociopath.''
You posted on X that America is addicted to White supremacy. It
is appalling. You have publicly chastised using the phrase
``boy and girl,'' which you said erases the language for non-
binary people. There are only two genders, by the way.
Ms. Maher, the Federal funding that your outlet receives
comes from all American taxpayer dollars, not just from your
viewers who support such statements as these. Let me inform you
that your Federal funding is also paid for by the other half of
the country, the 77 million Americans who voted for President
Trump, someone you called a deranged racist sociopath. Ms.
Maher, many find your pro-censorship and anti-free speech views
more concerning than your politics. The only speech you like
seems to be speech that you agree with. In 2021, you called the
First Amendment the No. 1 challenge in American journalism
because it makes it hard to crack down on bad information. You
said in a TED Talk that, ``Our reverence for the truth might be
a distraction.'' You have also expressed support for de-
platforming individuals you view as fascist. Who do you think
should be charged with cracking down on so-called bad
information? Is it NPR? Is it the government? Is it you, Ms.
Maher?
Ms. Maher. Congresswoman, Madam Chair, thank you so much
for the opportunity to address this. I know----
Ms. Greene. Is it up to you and NPR to crack down on bad
information or decide the truth? Answer the question, yes or
no, Ms. Maher.
Ms. Maher. Absolutely not. I am a very strong believer in
free speech, and I believe that more speech----
Ms. Greene. Your public statements say otherwise. Ms.
Maher, in 2021, when speaking at an Atlantic Council event, you
said that when you were CEO of Wikipedia, you took a very
active approach to disinformation and misinformation. During
the COVID pandemic and the 2020 election, you said you censored
information through conversations with government. Which
governments were those, Ms. Maher, the Biden Administration?
Yes or no.
Ms. Maher. Madam Chair, Wikipedia never censored any
information.
Ms. Greene. These are your public statements, Ms. Maher.
Ms. Maher, are you familiar with Section 399(b) of the
Communications Act? It prohibits non-commercial education
broadcast stations, NCEs, from airing commercials on behalf of
for-profit entities. The FCC recently opened an investigation
into the underwriting announcements and related policies of NPR
and PBS. Does NPR air commercials for for-profit entities, Ms.
Maher? Yes or no?
Ms. Maher. Madam Chair, we are in full compliance with the
FCC's inquiry and will continue to cooperate.
Ms. Greene. I remind you, you are under oath, and
violations of the Communications Act comes with a fine up to
$10,000 and possibly up to a year in prison. Does PBS air for-
profit commercials, Ms. Kerger?
Ms. Kerger. We air underwriting announcements and we
believe we are in full compliance with the FCC, and we look
forward to delivering the material required in this part of
this investigation.
Ms. Greene. We look forward to that, too. I am assuming
both of you are concerned about this and that is why you
brought so many attorneys with you today. Ms. Kerger, using
taxpayer subsidies, PBS funded Independent Lens to make
documentaries for part of your programming. In 2016, ``Real
Boy'' was aired about a trans teen navigating adolescent
sobriety and the ramification of his gender identity. In 2022,
the same series aired ``Our League'', in which a trans woman
comes to her old school Ohio bowling league in a story about
transition. Then in 2024, ``Racist Trees'' was aired telling a
story of how in Palm Springs, a Black neighborhood fights to
remove a divisive wall of trees. Do you think PBS needs to fund
ridiculous material such as this that the taxpayers are having
to pay for?
Ms. Kerger. These are documentary films that are point-of-
view pieces that are part of our primetime schedule for adults.
Ms. Greene. And parents and adults do not trust that type
of programming.
Mr. Lynch. Thank you, Madam Chair. I ask a unanimous
consent to enter into the record this letter from 72 public
radio stations serving rural communities across the country
where they emphasize how important Federal funding is to the
ability to provide vital public safety information.
Ms. Greene. Without objection, so ordered.
Mr. Lynch. OK. I also have a similar letter from the
Georgia PBS NPR station also asking for consideration for
Federal funding.
Ms. Greene. Without objection, so ordered.
Mr. Lynch. Thank you. Ms. Kerger and Ms. Maher, can we talk
a little bit about the educational service you provide for
children of low-income families and how that is received and
the trust that you have generated among families in that
situation?
Ms. Kerger. Yes, a significant part of our broadcast day is
devoted to programming for children. We focus on preschool.
That goes back to the legacy of Fred Rogers who believed that
media could be a tool to help to instruct children as well as a
tool of entertainment. Our programming is focused on core
skills that kids need to develop before they enter school, in
math and in learning numbers and in learning letters, so that
kids that do not have the opportunity to be in a formal pre-K
program have a chance to walk into school for the first time on
equal footing with kids that have more opportunity. And that is
the heart of what we think about in the programming that we
develop for kids.
Mr. Lynch. Independent groups have done assessments on the
trust factor that parents have on PBS Kids, which is one of
your most popular services. Can you talk about that?
Ms. Kerger. Yes.
Mr. Lynch. Where do you come in in terms of the comparison
to other stations?
Ms. Kerger. Yes. We are the most trusted media brand. In
fact, Parents magazine this week just ran the results of a
study that was done on ``Daniel Tiger's Neighborhood'',
actually looking at 16-year-olds that remember some of the
basic skills they learned as small children. And what we are
focused on is to make sure, again, that every child has the
opportunity to learn and be excited about the world around them
when they enter a school for the first time, and to give them
those core basic skills that we can see they carry forward in
life.
Mr. Lynch. Ms. Maher, I would like you to focus on the work
that public media is doing in relation to public safety
communications. How important is this function of public
broadcast media? Particularly, I am talking about the most
rural, most remote communities in this country.
Ms. Maher. Thank you so much, Congressman. We are part of
the National Next Generation Warning System for which we have
received a significant investment over the course of the last
few years, and many thanks to Congress for supporting that
appropriation. Our stations are busy implementing that across
the Nation. We also are part of the statewide emergency plans
for more than 20 states. You will see the importance and value
of public radio, in particular, when we face extreme weather,
for example, weather in Ashland, North Carolina recently. Blue
Ridge Public Radio was the only news information source
available for nearly 2 weeks as people struggled with outages
of water and electricity and certainly outages of cell phones
and internet. Recently as well, my colleague from Alaska would
be able to speak to Raven Public Media, which had a very
similar experience of 2 weeks of outages in which the local
media station was, again, the only source of information for
that community. When everything else goes down, Public Radio is
there, available to first responders to be able to communicate
directly about issues of harm and ensure the public has access
to vital critical information.
Mr. Lynch. Now, I mean, there is a lot of information out
there, a lot of stations out there, but what is the difference
here when you have a paywall-free, non-subscription access for
some of these communities?
Ms. Maher. I think it makes all the difference in the
world, sir. As I mentioned in my opening statement, we are one
of the only publications in America that has a dedicated
veterans beat and the only one without a paywall. I am always
struck by something that our veterans reporter told me, which
is that a mother of one of our troops deployed overseas came to
him and said that for the first time in 9 months she had heard
his son's voice. That is something that I believe only public
media can do, and it can only do that because it is available
to all Americans without any barriers.
Mr. Lynch. Thank you. Madam Chair, I yield back.
Ms. Greene. I now recognize Chairman Comer from Kentucky
for 5 minutes.
Chairman Comer. Thank you, Madam Chair. Mr. Ulman, I am
glad you brought up a point that has been mentioned a couple of
times already at the early start of this hearing about rural
and remote. And I have to tell the story, when I graduated from
college with a degree in agriculture, I went back to rural
Monroe County, Kentucky, and worked on a farm, my farm, for 5
years, full-time. I farm to this day, but full-time. I was in a
tractor sometimes 10, 12, 14 hours a day, and I listened to the
radio, and the only radio station I could get that had news was
public radio. So, I listened to as many hours of public radio
as anyone on this panel, I can assure you, and it was a great
service. That was 30-some years ago.
Today, in that same remote area, I mean, you have got
SiriusXM, you have got podcasts, there is internet access now,
there is a whole menu of media options now, but over time--and
I still occasionally listen to NPR because I just want to hear
what they have to say--and I do not even recognize the station
anymore. It is not news. I feel like it is propaganda. I feel
like there is disinformation every time I listen to NPR. And a
media entity like MSNBC or Huffington Post that, in my opinion,
consistently spews disinformation, they can do that. They are a
private company. But NPR gets Federal funds, and I have a
problem with that because if people in Alaska, if all they have
is public radio, then all they know is what these headlines
say. And they are wrong about COVID-19, and the headlines are
in the background. I do not have time to go over all these
headlines that are wrong, about Russian collusion, wrong,
wrong; about the Hunter Biden laptop, wrong.
And then there is a story about me and part of what we went
through on this Committee during the Biden investigation,
which, by the way, ended with Joe Biden's last act as President
of the United States, pardoned his entire family, preemptively,
for an 11-year period, which just so happened to be the 11-year
period that this Committee investigated the Bidens, that we had
subpoenaed bank records. I do not think NPR reported about the
pardons, but they reported a lot about how there was no
evidence of any wrongdoing and things that just were not true.
In fact, there is a story, NPR, ``Lawmaker Leading Hunter Biden
House Investigation, Accused of Owning a Shell Company.'' Well,
that is me.
Ms. Maher, are you familiar with that story that NPR wrote
about me at the height of the Biden investigation when you all
were disputing every aspect of our investigation that is a
hundred percent factual? We have hundreds of pages of evidence,
hundreds of pages of bank records, hundreds of pages of emails.
Do you remember the story that NPR wrote about me saying I had
a shell company?
Ms. Maher. Congressman, I was not at NPR at the time, and I
am unfamiliar with the story.
Chairman Comer. Where do you get your sources on something
like that? That is a very serious accusation because we are
investigating a President and his family who had 28 shell
companies. I have an LLC, had five properties in it. It is in
my financial disclosure form. I have gone into great detail,
given lots of interviews, but people that listen to NPR, they
are totally disinformed on the truth, and I have a problem with
that because you get Federal funds. And I do believe there was
a role for public radio 30 years ago, maybe 20 years ago, maybe
5 years ago, but because of technology today, I do not think
there is a role for public radio anymore.
And I think you have abused the privilege that you had with
receiving Federal funds because these headlines here are not
true. This is disinformation on some huge topics. Do you want
to dispute anything that I said in the remaining 30 seconds?
Ms. Maher. Thank you, Congressman. First of all, I want to
recognize your concerns. One of the first things that I did in
coming in in May was to beef up our editorial standards. I
directed my editor-in-chief, who, by the way----
Chairman Comer. Why is NPR even doing editorials?
Ms. Maher. I am so sorry.
Chairman Comer. Should NPR even do editorials?
Ms. Maher. I do not mean editorial in terms of opinion
editorial.
Chairman Comer. Do you even need opinion? What does it
matter with opinion? If you are a federally funded entity that
is supposed to provide the news, can you not provide the news
in balance?
Ms. Maher. Of course. Of course, Congressman. I mean,
editorial standards for our journalism was to beef up our
editorial practices, bringing in more editors to make sure that
we have more points of view reflected in every story. I have
engaged in a number of actions trying to address some of these
concerns.
Chairman Comer. And my time has expired. I have lost
confidence in Public Radio. I don't think, Madam Chair, they
should get a penny of Federal funds. I yield back.
Ms. Greene. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I now recognize Mr.
Garcia from California for 5 minutes.
Mr. Garcia. Well, thank you, Madam Chairwoman. I want to
first begin by thanking all of our witnesses that are here
today. I know that there is a lot we should be discussing right
now at this hearing. We have of course had some pretty shocking
security breaches that we are just learning about through a lot
of our national security officials. We know that Pete Hegseth
should be removed from office or should resign. We have Donald
Trump, who, of course, is crashing the stock market. He has
taken away millions--millions--of programs and hurting people
across this country to fund tax giveaways to billionaires, and
our constituents cannot access their Social Security benefits.
Now, I think, actually, Chairwoman Greene supports everything
that the Trump Administration is actually doing, so instead of
a serious hearing, we are here to attack NPR and PBS. So, let
us get right into it.
Now, Ms. Kerger, the American people want to know, is Elmo
now or has he ever been a member of the Communist Party of the
United States? Yes or no.
Ms. Kerger. No.
Mr. Garcia. Now, are you sure, Ms. Kerger, because he is
obviously red.
Ms. Kerger. Well, he is a puppet, but no.
Mr. Garcia. Now, that is not all. He also has a very
dangerous message about sharing and helping each other. He is
indoctrinating our kids that sharing is caring. Now, maybe he
is part of a major socialist plot, and maybe that is why the
Chairwoman is having this hearing today, but let us talk about
somebody else. Let us talk about Cookie Monster. Now, we know
that Health Secretary, RFK Jr., is coming out against fast food
and baked goods. Are we silencing pro-cookie voters? Yes or no,
Ms. Kerger.
Ms. Kerger. The cookies are a sometime food.
Mr. Garcia. Well, thank you. Now, I agree with you, and let
us also talk about the most important, maybe, character on
``Sesame Street''.
[Photo]
Mr. Garcia. This is actually Big Bird. Now, Ms. Kerger,
since Elon Musk actually fired USDA workers who have been
working on the bird flu, does it make sense to also fire Big
Bird? Yes or no.
Ms. Kerger. We would like to keep Big Bird.
Mr. Garcia. I completely agree with you, and now it gets
even worse.
[Poster]
Mr. Garcia. Now, this is actually a tweet that Big Bird
actually sent out about the COVID-19 vaccine, encouraging folks
to actually get their vaccination, which, of course, we believe
in vaccines. Now, perhaps the reason why we are having this
hearing is because our Chairwoman, Ms. Greene, has actually
said some really negative things about getting vaccinations,
and that perhaps is why we are here. And so, we support Big
Bird being pro-vaccine and promoting vaccines across this
country. Now, I will admit though, the extreme liberal agenda
that you are all pushing, I think, does not stop there. This,
of course, is Bert and Ernie. Now, these two guys actually live
together. They are friends. They are supportive of each other.
Now, that might be triggering to our Chairwoman and someone in
this Committee, and perhaps that is also why we are here today.
Ms. Kerger, an important question: are Bert and Ernie part of
an extreme homosexual agenda?
Ms. Kerger. No.
Mr. Garcia. Thank you, Ms. Kerger, and thank you for being
a good sport. Now, I am obviously using some humor here, but
the fact that we are sitting here today talking about defunding
public television is actually not funny. At a time where we
cannot agree on basic facts and while the free press is under
attack, we need public media like PBS and NPR more than ever. A
large majority of Americans say they trust PBS, and that is
exactly why extremists are trying to tear it down. Public
broadcasting is a tool for education, for emergencies, and a
cherished part of our national fabric. We get huge benefits
from a tiny Federal investment. The Majority and their
Chairwoman should drop this attempt to silence media voices
they do not like.
So, the message, I think, today is very, very simple. If we
are going to get rid of any puppeteers, we should get rid of
the one that is actually controlling Donald Trump. Fire Elon
Musk and save Elmo. And with that, I yield back.
Ms. Greene. I now recognize Mr. Cloud from Texas for 5
minutes.
Mr. Cloud. Thank you, Chairwoman. NPR fancies itself as a
nonpartisan news outlet, public information outlet, even says
that we should consider all things, all things are considered,
yet their history of political bias has shown that there are a
number of things they have not considered. They asked us not to
consider that the Hunter Biden laptop was real. They dismissed
what was always the most probable theory of the COVID lab leak
from Wuhan. They interviewed Russia collusion hoaxster, Adam
Schiff, 25 times, who claimed to have a vault of information in
his office leading to the impeachment of President Trump,
which, of course, we now know was all fraudulent.
I would like to submit for the record an article by Uri
Berliner, ``I Have Been at NPR for 25 Years. Here is How We
Lost America's Trust.''
Ms. Greene. Without objection.
Mr. Cloud. So, NPR, unfortunately, has lost much of the
audience that they used to have, and now they have a very
partisan audience because of this. Who do they bring in to fix
it? They bring in Ms. Maher, who has a history and commentary
of promoting Marxist ideology, including critical theory, said
we should not use the terms boy or girl, has called our
President a deranged racist sociopath, and said that our
reverence for the truth has become a distraction that is
preventing us from finding consensus and getting important
things done. And one could look at that and think that maybe,
in your view, promoting groupthink is more important than
finding the truth. I thought we liked diversity of ideas,
especially, and that as an online encyclopedia, that you used
to manage, activism was more important than accuracy. Now I had
an uncle who used to say that you should never let the truth
get in the way of a good story, and while that was humorous
when we were talking about weekend fishing expeditions, when we
are talking about news and information, and encyclopedias, and
things that are of national importance, I find that very
troubling. Now you are here managing NPR, which is in part
federally funded. Can we expect that you will bring the same
lack of reverence for truth to your management of NPR?
Ms. Maher. Thank you, Congressman. First of all, I do want
to say that NPR acknowledges that we were mistaken in failing
to cover the Hunter Biden laptop story more aggressively and
sooner. Our current editorial leadership----
Mr. Cloud. And Wuhan?
Ms. Maher. We recognize that we were reporting at the time,
but we acknowledge that the new CIA evidence is worthy of
coverage and have covered it.
Mr. Cloud. What have you done to clean up the bias before?
You mentioned I was not there for that. What are you doing to
clean up and make sure that we have Hunter Biden?
Ms. Maher. Absolutely. Thank you, Congressman. As I
mentioned, I came in in May. Mr. Berliner published his story 2
weeks into my tenure regarding stories that had happened prior.
I wish that I had had the opportunity to speak with Mr.
Berliner. I would have loved to have had him engage and come
back to us with some suggestions as to what we could do
editorially in order to address what he perceived as bias.
Mr. Cloud. Now, you have had a long history, including the
thing that I mentioned, about lack of reverence for truth. You
have even talked about the First Amendment kind of getting in
the way of what you wanted to get done, and then you are
wanting us to believe that NPR is now taking this non-biased
approach. I mean, where was the come-to-Jesus moment for you, I
guess, that has turned you around and that we can trust the
American taxpayer dollars with your leadership of NPR?
Ms. Maher. I so appreciate the opportunity to perhaps
clarify some things. My talk about truth was really referencing
the way that people use truth to refer to belief as opposed to
facts, and my encouragement was that we focus on facts. With
regards to the First Amendment----
Mr. Cloud. That is not what your comment said. Your comment
said that truth was getting in the way of getting things done
and that you were prioritizing what you wanted to get done over
truth, and that is really unfortunate. I want to go to a
different context because you are allowed to have your
political opinion. Any news organization should be going after
the truth. That is what we want and expect out of news
organizations, but certainly a media platform can have whatever
opinion it wants in a free society. The question for us today,
as a Committee, is whether or not the taxpayer should be forced
to pay for this kind of thing.
Mr. Gonzalez, I wanted to get your take on this about why
the corporate public broadcasting, is it still relevant today?
I mean, we are in a different context than we were in the 1960s
where maybe not every home had a television. Now many of them
have multiple televisions, and certainly, most have a screen in
their pocket most times during the day. I have three here on my
desk, and so it seems like we are in a different context of
where could we possibly get the news today or information.
Could you speak to the importance, or lack thereof, of the
Corporation of Public Broadcasting in the context of where we
are today in society?
Mr. Gonzalez. Yes, right. When it came on after the passage
of the '67 Public Broadcasting Act in the early 1970s, there
were only three networks. We had Cronkite, Reasoner, and the
other guy, and PBS added, by third, the number of networks that
we had. That is not the case today and as far as education,
which has been diminished. And by the way, I believe that
``Sesame Street'' was sold to HBO 10 years ago, but as far as
the educational value, we have an unending stream of
educational content online.
I could reel off a number of websites that people can
access, YouTube channels, where kids of all income levels can
access educational content. But basically, as I said in my
testimony, it goes back to the basic unfairness that
conservatives for 50 years have been saying, but you are
completely biased, and they have the audacity to say, oh no, we
are not, and you have to just pay us, and that is the basic----
Ms. Greene. The gentleman's time has expired. Thank you,
Mr. Gonzalez.
I ask unanimous consent to enter into the record an article
published today by Uri Berliner about NPR basically saying that
the bias has not changed.
Mr. Lynch. Madam Chair, I also have a unanimous consent
request from the Members who were at Mr. Grijalva's funeral
mass this morning asking to submit into the record this letter
of support for Federal funding from WKMS, which is Kentucky
Radio, where Mr. Comer rode his tractor.
Ms. Greene. Without objection, so ordered.
Mr. Lynch. Thank you.
Ms. Greene. I now recognize the gentleman, Mr. Casar, from
Texas, for 5 minutes.
Mr. Casar. Good morning. Mr. Gonzalez, you wrote the
proposal to defund NPR, PBS, and public broadcasting for
Project 2025. Can you answer a few questions for me? How many
millions of dollars a month do taxpayers spend for Daniel Tiger
to play golf?
Mr. Gonzalez. I have no idea who he is.
Mr. Casar. I think the answer is none.
Mr. Gonzalez. OK.
Mr. Casar. To your knowledge, has Ms. Piggy ever been
caught trying to funnel billions of dollars in government
contracts to herself and to her companies?
Mr. Gonzalez. That is a silly question.
Mr. Casar. Well, the answer is no. How about Arthur the
Aardvark? Has he ever fired independent government watchdogs
who are investigating his companies? The answer is no. Madam
Chair, I am told we are here to talk about government
efficiency, but Daniel Tiger has not blown $10 million of
taxpayer money to play golf with his friends, but Donald Trump
has just at the beginning of his Administration. Ms. Piggy has
not been caught funneling billions of dollars in government
contracts to herself, but Elon Musk has; and Arthur has not
fired independent government watchdogs investigating him and
his companies, but Elon Musk has fired at least five.
So, once again, my Republican colleagues are dragging in a
scapegoat, this time PBS and NPR, to try to distract from the
fact that Trump and Musk are robbing working people. It is
``Sesame Street'' that is making things expensive. It is Mr.
Rogers that is blowing taxpayer money. It is listeners like
you. It is absurd. The total funding for public broadcasting is
just one-sixth the amount that Elon Musk's companies make off
of the government every single year, but you will not see Elon
Musk being grilled by this Committee. I have seen a lot, but
pointing the finger at Elmo to cover for Elon Musk might be a
new low for Ms. Marjorie Taylor Greene's Committee. I do not
think Americans are buying it.
Here is what I think we should be having a hearing about.
After Trump and Musk took over the government, reporters
noticed the State Department was trying to funnel $400 million
taxpayer to Tesla. The State Department said it is an old
contract, no news here, but because of a brave whistleblower
and an NPR reporter, they exposed the corruption and the lies.
Madam Chairwoman, if we want to look into waste, fraud, and
abuse, why not look into that? Elon Musk, who is running
cabinet meetings, who is running the White House, was trying to
funnel money to himself, so let us stop investigating Cookie
Monster and start investigating how the Trump Administration
lied about this and was trying to funnel money to their biggest
political supporter.
Maybe you are trying to defund NPR because they expose this
kind of corruption. And if Republicans were serious about
investigating waste, fraud, and abuse, my colleagues would
admit that Big Bird is not the problem. Big Tech is. Big Pharma
is. Big insurance companies are. Elon Musk's companies make
billions--$3 billion a year--off of government contracts. That
is six times the money that goes to all of public broadcasting.
Private insurers and Medicare Advantage overcharged taxpayers
$83 billion just last year. That could pay for public
broadcasting 160 times over. The $4-and-a-half trillion tax cut
for the ultra-wealthy that Republicans on this Committee are
trying to push through, that would pay for public broadcasting
9,000 times over.
There is money to pay not just for PBS and NPR, but
healthcare for every American, tuition-free trade school and
community college for every American, to end homelessness on
the streets of our cities, but my Republican colleagues do not
want to talk about the corporate waste, fraud, and abuse
because those corporations fund the Republicans campaigns. So,
instead, they want to shut down educational programming for
kids and their families, and they want to shut down local radio
stations. To borrow a phrase from ``Sesame Street'', the letter
of the day is C and it stands for ``corruption.''
Look, in my home city of Austin, Texas, we have Austin City
Limits, which decade after decade after decade has chronicled
American music. And if they had a bad season and it was private
TV, they just would have shut it down, and we would not have
had decade after decade after decade of Austin City Limits.
That is the amazing thing about public broadcasting. I have a
lot of public housing residents in the San Antonio side of my
district, and when I talk to them and they hear about what is
going on in Washington, DC, they talk about Texas Public Radio.
And I just heard my colleagues talking about educational
programming for kids on YouTube. That stuff is loaded with ads,
and also, on other forms of private television, they are
selling you and your kids stuff, making people feel bad. They
are trying to make a profit off of you. That is why I sat in
front of Mr. Rogers because you got to learn something and were
not just trying to sell you junk. It is better for our kids, it
is better for our families, and we should actually be
supporting public broadcasting instead of this stuff.
Madam Chair, leave Elmo alone. Bring Elon in for
questioning instead.
Ms. Greene. I now recognize Mr. Timmons from South Carolina
for 5 minutes.
Mr. Timmons. Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to thank the
witnesses for being here today. I am going to begin by saying
this. We do not want to shut down NPR, PBS, but we have $36
trillion in debt and we have run a $1.8 trillion annual
deficit, and we are scouring all government spending, not just
Democrat priorities, but Republican priorities, too. We are
going to be going through the defense budget. We are going to
be making sure that we are spending our taxpayer dollars wisely
because we have an existential threat. We have an existential
threat. We cannot continue down this path financially.
So, we do not want to shut you down, but we cannot continue
down this path. And so, if our debt is part of the reason we
are here, I think another part of the reason we are here,
reevaluating your role and the government's use of taxpayer
dollars to partially fund your institutions, is because
technology has changed everything. We are not living in 1967,
and the internet has changed our society. We have such
increased social interconnectedness, and there are various
options for people to get news and to get disinformation or
information, whatever you want to get. So, those are the two
kind of reasons I want to start with, and that is probably half
the problem we are here for.
The other half is your perceived bias and your content
moderation and the manner in which you are violating
journalistic integrity, and I will say this. NPR, you have been
far worse at this. Ms. Kerger, you have done a much better job
at this, but we still have some issues we are going to talk
about. Ms. Maher, do you think that the public statements you
have made on social media create a challenge in your leadership
for what should be an unbiased public information system? Did
your past comments--I will give you a better question. Did they
come up in your job interview? Like, do you see a problem?
Ms. Maher. Congressman, thank you for the question. No,
they never came up in my job interview.
Mr. Timmons. You are a rabid progressive. And do you not
think it is a problem that your political leanings make it seem
to the American people that you are not biased and you are not
doing your job because you agree that your job is to have
journalistic integrity, right?
Ms. Maher. Absolutely, but there is a strong firewall
between the newsroom and anything that I do.
Mr. Timmons. Let us talk about the newsroom. You have 87
registered Democrats, not a single Republican in your editor
boards. I mean, how does that work to give us the perception
that you are doing your job of actually delivering unbiased
information?
Ms. Maher. Well, I would agree with you that that number is
a concern if it is accurate. I do believe that we need to have
journalists who represent the full breadth of the American
society so that we can report well for all Americans.
Mr. Timmons. Well, I think that you are failing. I realize
you have only been there for a year, but I just really think
that while it is a small portion of your budget, you very much
should expect to restructure your revenue streams because I do
not think that NPR is necessarily worth saving, and I am going
to go on to Ms. Kerger. I will say this, you have been very
professional and you have been there for decades, and I think
that you have done a fairly good job over your tenure, but I
want to ask you a very simple question. In retrospect, do you
think that it was inappropriate to put the drag queen on the
kids' show? Do you think that was a mistake?
Ms. Kerger. The drag queen was actually not on any of our
kids' shows. The image that Chairman Taylor Greene showed was
from a project that our New York City station did with the New
York City Department of Education.
Mr. Timmons. What time of day did it air?
Ms. Kerger. It did not air. It was a digital project they
did for the Department of Education. It only appeared on our
website briefly.
Mr. Timmons. Do you think that that image had anything to
do with PBS? Do you see----
Ms. Kerger. It was not for PBS. It was mistakenly put on
our website by our--I am sorry, I do not mean to talk over you.
It was mistakenly put on our website by our New York City
station. It was not intended for national distribution. It was
immediately pulled down. It was never broadcast.
Mr. Timmons. OK. But do you think that you should publish
something that calls trees racist? In retrospect, should you
have published that?
Ms. Kerger. I am not sure what you are referring to,
Congressman.
Mr. Timmons. You had a segment that was called ``Racist
Trees''. I mean, we have already referenced it a number of
times, so I mean, do you think trees can be racist? I guess
that is a good one.
Ms. Kerger. I do not know what you are talking about.
Mr. Timmons. OK.
Ms. Kerger. I have never heard of what you are referring
to----
Mr. Timmons. All right. Well, we----
Ms. Kerger [continuing]. But I would be happy to look into
it.
Mr. Timmons. I guess, last, do you think that it is
appropriate to expose children to issues of transitioning? Do
you see a problem with that? Is that something you should
avoid?
Ms. Kerger. That is not anything on any of our children's
programs at all.
Mr. Timmons. Ms. Kerger, you have done a far better job
here today, and we are going to continue to have this
conversation. But again, we have $36 trillion in debt, and we
are trying to figure out how to make sure that our kids and our
grandkids have an opportunity at the American Dream because if
we do not change course financially, they will not. Thank you.
I yield back.
Ms. Kerger. Thank you.
Ms. Greene. I now recognize the gentlewoman from Texas, Ms.
Crockett, for 5 minutes.
Ms. Crockett. Thank you so much. It should not be
surprising that the President is doing everything possible to
make it more difficult for the media to hold him accountable
and for the public to be informed about his reckless and
illegal behavior, yet here we are. The Republicans have
actually organized this goofy hearing to try to convince the
American people that PBS and NPR are ``domestic threats'' not
the incompetent, unqualified Secretary of Defense who is
texting war plans to journalists. But it is you all, PBS and
NPR, the American people are supposed to be worried about.
You cannot make this up. It is as stupid as it sounds. The
American people should be worried about the President
threatening to investigate NBC for treason for reporting on his
felony convictions, or arresting reporters and stripping
networks of their licenses for not saying nice things about him
or not using ``Gulf of America.'' The Republican's witness, Mr.
Gonzalez, went so far as to suggest that because NPR and PBS
reported on the murder of George Floyd, they ``represent a
danger to our physical health as well as the civic health of
our body politics.'' Ms. Maher, do you think reporting on the
murder of George Floyd and highlighting instances of systemic
racism is a domestic threat to America?
Ms. Maher. Thank you, Congresswoman. I believe it is our
responsibility to report on all issues of interest to the
American public.
Ms. Crockett. Thank you so much. Ms. Kerger, what about
you?
Ms. Kerger. I agree. I think it is important for us to
report on the important news of the day.
Ms. Crockett. So, let us talk about the critical role of
public media. During his first term, President Trump's own
Department of Homeland Security highlighted the importance of
Public Broadcasting's role in public safety. In 2018, his
Administration stated, ``PBS and local public television
stations play a crucial role in protecting communities by
delivering essential information to individuals and first
responders. These benefits are all made possible by Public
Broadcasting stations' unique reach, reliability, and role
across America, and are especially vital in rural and
underserved areas.''
Madam Chairwoman, I seek unanimous consent to enter into
the record the 2018 report.
Ms. Greene. Without objection, so ordered.
Ms. Crockett. And Madam Chair, I also seek unanimous
consent to enter into the record, the 2019 report titled,
``Modernizing the Nation's Public Alert and Warning System''
from Trump's----
Ms. Greene. Without objection, so ordered.
Ms. Crockett. In the report, FEMA encouraged ``the use of
Public Broadcast capabilities to expand alert warning and
communication capabilities to fill gaps in rural and
underserved areas.'' Mr. Ulman, what is a more significant
domestic threat, reporting the murder of George Floyd or
dismantling most of America's emergency communication systems?
Mr. Ulman. Can you please repeat the question for me,
Congresswoman?
Ms. Crockett. Which one is more of a threat, reporting the
murder of George Floyd or dismantling most of America's
emergency communication systems?
Mr. Ulman. Dismantling the emergency systems.
Ms. Crockett. And isn't it true that KBRW-AM in Barrow,
Alaska, is the only broadcast service available in an area of
more than 90,000 square miles?
Mr. Ulman. That is correct. It is also the North Slope
where the majority of all the oil production that comes from
Alaska takes place.
Ms. Crockett. Thank you so much. And isn't it true that
without these stations' broadcast, Americans in rural
communities would lack access to lifesaving information and
public safety alerts?
Mr. Ulman. That is correct.
Ms. Crockett. So, in your opinion, would eliminating
funding for stations in rural America, like WNGH Channel 18, in
the Chairwoman's district, hurt Americans?
Mr. Ulman. It would hurt Americans, yes.
Ms. Crockett. In fact, Georgia Public Broadcasting serves
as the official distributor of evacuation route information
during state-ordered evacuations, and the chairwoman is here
advocating to strip their funding.
Look, the DOGE agenda is not about government efficiency.
It is about breeding corruption at the expense of the safety of
the American people, particularly Americans living in rural or
remote parts of the country. They do not care about public
safety, they do not care about emergency management, and they
do not care about free speech, all of which are harming
American people. In fact, I am going to skip off real quick
because they have tried to come for you, Ms. Maher, and I just
want to clarify, you did not work for NPR when those statements
were made, did you?
Ms. Maher. That is correct.
Ms. Crockett. And to be clear, free speech is not about
whatever it is that you all want somebody to say, and the idea
that you want to shut down everybody that is not Fox News is
bullshit. We need to stop playing because that is what you all
are doing in here. You do not want to hear the opinions of
anybody else, and the Constitution says Congress shall make no
law respecting or establishing of religion or prohibiting the
free exercise thereof or abridging the free speech or press.
Ms. Greene. The gentlewoman's time has expired. The
gentlewoman's time has expired.
Mr. Garcia. Madam Chairwoman, can I put something into the
record? Unanimous consent, please.
Ms. Greene. Without objection, so ordered.
Mr. Garcia. Thank you. I would like to put in this NPR
article, ``What Biden's Preemptive Pardons for Family Members
Could Mean for Presidential Powers,'' if I could submit that to
the record?
Ms. Greene. Without objection, so ordered.
I now recognize the gentleman from Ohio, Jim Jordan, for 5
minutes.
Mr. Jordan. Thank you, Madam Chair. Ms. Maher, who is Uri
Berliner?
Ms. Maher. Mr. Berliner is a former senior editor.
Mr. Jordan. That is all?
Ms. Maher. A former senior business editor for NPR.
Mr. Jordan. How long did he work at NPR?
Ms. Maher. I believe he was there just over 25 years.
Mr. Jordan. Twenty-five years. Award-winning journalist?
Did he win any awards?
Ms. Maher. Our time did not apply.
Mr. Jordan. Peabody Award. That is pretty important, isn't
it?
Ms. Maher. That is, absolutely.
Mr. Jordan. A pretty distinguished journalist, right?
Ms. Maher. Certainly.
Mr. Jordan. He wrote a long story about what you do at NPR.
Is NPR biased?
Ms. Maher. Congressman, I have never seen any instance of--
--
Mr. Jordan. Never?
Ms. Maher [continuing]. Political bias determining
editorial decisions, no.
Mr. Jordan. Well, Mr. Berliner, in his story last year,
wrote, in the D.C. area, editorial positions at NPR, he said he
found 87 registered Democrats, zero Republicans. Is that
accurate?
Ms. Maher. We do not track the numbers or the voter
registration, but I find that concerning.
Mr. Jordan. Award-winning journalist who worked 25 years at
NPR, Mr. Berliner, was he lying when he wrote that?
Ms. Maher. I am not presuming such. We do not track that
information about our journalists.
Mr. Jordan. Eighty-seven to zero, and you are not biased?
Ms. Maher. I think that is concerning, if those numbers are
accurate.
Mr. Jordan. It is concerning. I mean, it was not 44-43, it
was not 60-27, it was not 70-17, it was not even 80 to 7. It
was 87 Democrats, zero Republicans, and you say NPR is not
biased. How about the big stories over the last few years?
According to Mr. Berliner again, on the Trump-Russia story, he
wrote, ``At NPR, we hitched our wagon to Trump's most visible
antagonist, Representative Adam Schiff,'' and he said they
interviewed him 25 times. Is that accurate?
Ms. Maher. I was not there at the time, but those numbers
sound accurate.
Mr. Jordan. Those sound accurate, but then he said when the
Mueller report came out and Robert Mueller said he found no
evidence of collusion, he said ``Russiagate faded from our
programming.'' Is that accurate?
Ms. Maher. Again, I was not there at the time. I could not
say.
Mr. Jordan. You could not say?
Ms. Maher. I was not at NPR at the time.
Mr. Jordan. You did not prepare for that? You knew we were
going to ask you about this guy, didn't you? It has come up,
like, 6,000 times already in the hearing.
Ms. Maher. I just could not say whether it faded from our
coverage, sir.
Mr. Jordan. How about this story? October 2020, the New
York Post had the Hunter Biden laptop story, and one of those
editors, I guess one of those 87 Democrat editors, said this:
``We do not want to waste our time on stories that are not
really stories. We do not want to waste the listeners' and
readers' times on stories that are just pure distractions.''
Was that a pure distraction story?
Ms. Maher. Our current editorial leadership believes that
that was a mistake, as do I.
Mr. Jordan. Yes. The whole country knows that was a
mistake, definitely impacted the election. I think it certainly
impacted the election. How about the COVID origin story? That
is a pretty big story too, right? Mr. Berliner said, ``We
became fervent members of the term, `natural origin,' even
declaring that the lab leak was debunked by scientists.'' Turns
out though, the lab leak is what most people think actually
caused the COVID virus.
Ms. Maher. Sorry, sir. Is there a question there?
Mr. Jordan. There is. You guys were zero for three. On the
three of the biggest stories in the last 5 years, you guys were
zero for three, and yet you maintain that NPR is not biased?
Ms. Maher. Congressman, I do not believe we are politically
biased, no. We are a nonpartisan organization.
Mr. Jordan. Nonpartisan organization. What has happened to
your listeners over the last 5 years? Went up, down, or stayed
the same?
Ms. Maher. It has gone up and down, and is now going back
up.
Mr. Jordan. Well, I thought 5 years ago it was at 60
million. You said in your opening statement, I think, 43
million.
Ms. Maher. That is correct.
Mr. Jordan. So, 43 million now, and it was at 60 million 5
years ago. I can do some math. That looks like it went down.
Ms. Maher. And is now going back up.
Mr. Jordan. It is now going back up?
Ms. Maher. Yes, it is.
Mr. Jordan. How much has it went back up?
Ms. Maher. It has gone up a couple of millions over the
past year.
Mr. Jordan. Oh, so you went from 60 million to 41 million,
and now you are back up to 43 million.
Ms. Maher. In a year's time. I am very proud of that
growth, sir.
Mr. Jordan. OK. You are proud of that growth, OK, but over
5 years, it went down 18 million?
Ms. Maher. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Jordan. OK. Should taxpayers subsidize NPR?
Ms. Maher. I believe that taxpayers should subsidize local
stations, sir. That is the vast majority of what we are talking
about.
Mr. Jordan. I thought you said you got $11 million from
Corporation of Public Broadcasting, which is taxpayer funding
directly to you, right?
Ms. Maher. That is to support the public radio and
satellite system.
Mr. Jordan. And then local stations get it from the
Corporation of Public Broadcasting, right? They get taxpayer
money?
Ms. Maher. A hundred million that goes to the local
stations.
Mr. Jordan. A hundred million goes to local stations, and
then those local stations buy back programming content from
you. So, that money goes to the local stations, comes back to
you, gets routed through the local stations, all taxpayer
money.
Ms. Maher. Those fees are actually based on private
donations rather than on Federal funding.
Mr. Jordan. Well, we all know money is fungible, so some of
it gets put in there.
Ms. Maher. Certainly. We could agree that money is
fungible.
Mr. Jordan. More money for less listeners. You fired the
guy who pointed all this out, who said that you were so biased
to the left that you lost listeners, which is exactly
happening, and you are here maintaining that, oh, you need to
continue to get taxpayer money.
Ms. Maher. I did not fire Mr. Berliner, sir.
Mr. Jordan. OK. The guy that left after all that. I
understand, I understand. Are you fundraising off today's
hearing?
Ms. Maher. Sir, I believe that there was a message that
went out earlier today letting people know we were coming in,
yes.
Mr. Jordan. Yes, and at the bottom of the message, it said,
``donate now,'' right?
Ms. Maher. I do not recall the exact language.
Mr. Jordan. I can show it to you. Right there, it is,
``Donate now.'' I mean, I am not against fundraising. We all do
it. I mean, I get it, but I assume this fundraising thing is
probably going to all the left listeners who were subsidized
content by the taxpayers and that is the problem. That is the
rub. I yield back.
Ms. Greene. The gentleman's time has expired. I now
recognize Ms. Randall from Washington for 5 minutes.
Ms. Randall. Thank you so much. You know, I am new to
Congress, this is my first term, and I came from a legislative
body that did not have quite as heated debates in our
committees and were generally fairly welcoming to our folks
joining us to testify. So, I want to say thank you to all of
you for taking the time out of your schedule to come and share
your experience with all of us and with the American people. I
am grateful for your time and for the work that you do in
service of your communities and neighbors.
You know, American families used to get all the same news,
right? Folks would have access to a handful of news channels,
they would watch the same nightly news programs, they would go
from one to the other to the other, and we could all agree on
what was happening in our country. We all used to operate from
the same baseline of information, but today, it is no secret
that we are operating in a much more diversified and fractured
media environment. The content space, the use of AI-generated
content, Americans now have to be able to discern for
themselves whether something they are hearing is true or not.
But investing in public media is a bedrock to our healthy,
critically informed and engaged public, and our democracy.
And I know that my colleagues on the other side of the
aisle have argued over whether every piece of programming is in
service of the public, but I also want to point out that in my
fairly rural district, we have a lot of areas that are not
served by broadband. A lot of folks who cannot easily access
numerous podcasts while they are out working on their property,
they have to maybe wait for something to download when they are
at home, using maybe even a wired internet connection, right? I
am in a dead zone for about an hour-and-a-half as I am driving
from one city to another in my community, but public radio is
broadly accessible, and it is important for folks counting on
the weather report, for kids who are in pre-kindergarten who
are watching Elmo and learning to count and do math. It is
important for the young people who were home during COVID and
were able to continue learning with the help of public
broadcasting.
I think we have a lot of problems in this country, a lot of
problems that we should be tackling for regular Americans who
are struggling to afford to live, to afford housing, to afford
health care, to be able to live the lives that they dream of
for themselves and their children. I think we have got some
national security concerns that have been talked about a lot in
this Committee. But I think talking about defunding public
broadcasting and public media is an egregious misuse of our
time here.
Mr. Ulman, when we talk about cutting funds for the
Corporation for Public Broadcasting, we are talking about those
local small stations that rely on that money. Seventy percent
of Corporation for Public Broadcasting funding goes directly to
public radio. I know you have worked in Tacoma in the past. I
can attest to how rural some parts of Western Washington are.
It is not all Tacoma. What role do public media stations, like
NPR and PBS, play in supporting local stations? What kind of
programming do they provide?
Mr. Ulman. The local communities are at the heart of the
work we do. As I shared in my opening remarks, we talk about
the people and the places there. You bring up a memory of mine.
Chehalis, Aberdeen, Hoquiam area, KBTC was the only public
television station there. You know about the struggles that
that community was having over a decade ago, job loss, all
kinds of terrible economic situations. We provided educational
services there with a half-a-million-dollar local grant that we
partnered with the community on. It was incredible work. We do
the same thing in Alaska with military families, homeschoolers,
elementary schools. Those are the pieces we provide, and then
local news stories that people can use about where they live
and what they do. That is what we do. That would be lost.
Ms. Randall. Thank you so much. Madam Chair, I yield back.
Ms. Greene. Thank you. I now recognize the gentleman from
Tennessee, Mr. Burchett, for 5 minutes.
Mr. Burchett. Thank you, Chairlady. Ms. Kerger, is it true
that HBO bought the rights to ``Sesame Street''?
Ms. Kerger. No, it did not. Sesame Street entered an
arrangement with HBO for a number of years, which is now----
Mr. Burchett. And it was a paid arrangement, correct?
Ms. Kerger. Yes, which allowed us to get the series for
free during the period of that time.
Mr. Burchett. How much money was transacted during that
time?
Ms. Kerger. I do not know. Sesame Street is a private
organization. It is separate from ours.
Mr. Burchett. OK. Ms. Maher, what about Lee Greenwood's
``God Bless the USA'' is propaganda?
Ms. Maher. I am sorry, sir. Could you repeat the question?
Mr. Burchett. What about Lee Greenwood's ``God Bless the
USA'' is propaganda?
Ms. Maher. I do not believe that is propaganda, sir.
Mr. Burchett. OK. Well, in January, North County Public
Radio, and that is a subsidiary of NPR, had Daphne Brooks, who
apparently is a Black feminism scholar, on its show, where it
was hosted by the host Brittany Luz, and it says, ``Have you
ever watched something on TV and thought OK, now this is
propaganda? Have you ever had that moment?'' To which Daphne
Brooks replied, ``Whenever I see Lee Greenwood singing `Proud
to be an American'.''
Ms. Maher. I believe that represents the individual we
interviewed on air, not the position at NPR.
Mr. Burchett. And did you say there is no bias on NPR?
Ms. Maher. That is not a position of NPR.
Mr. Burchett. That is not a bias statement, ma'am? Both
parties wrap themselves around this song every time there is a
national conflict. Lee Greenwood sings it and he does a
beautiful job, but you say there is no bias in NPR.
Ms. Maher. That is that individual's opinion, and she, of
course, is entitled to it, but that is not the position of NPR.
Mr. Burchett. Ma'am, you said in your opening statement
that you were going to be transformative and I believe you
failed to do that. Let me ask you, why did you call President
Trump a fascist and a deranged racist sociopath in 2020?
Ms. Maher. Congressman, I appreciate the opportunity to
address this. I regret those tweets. I would not tweet them
again today. They represented a time where I was reflecting on
something that, I believe, that the President had said rather
than who he is. I do not presume that anyone is a racist.
Mr. Burchett. You do not believe anyone is a racist?
Ms. Maher. I do not start by presuming anyone is a racist,
sir.
Mr. Burchett. OK. Has NPR or PBS ever conducted an internal
review to assess whether conservative or right-leaning
perspectives are fairly representative news in programming?
Ms. Maher. Congressman, what we look at is the distribution
of people who listen to our work, and we can tell you, and I am
proud to tell you, that for our digital, our podcasts, and our
website, the distribution of Americans who come to NPR does
reflect the political distribution of the Nation. In fact, the
distribution on our website, 33 percent of folks who come are
conservative versus 28 percent who are liberal, and the rest
identify as independent. So, the largest group is conservatives
who come to NPR's websites.
Mr. Burchett. So, you believe that most Americans think
President Trump is a fascist and a deranged racist sociopath?
Ms. Maher. I do not believe that at all, sir.
Mr. Burchett. OK. Ma'am?
Ms. Kerger. We, obviously, are constantly looking at the
voices that we bring forward. We take to heart our commitment
to bringing forward perspectives from across the country. Our
programming comes from our local stations. And I mentioned in
my opening comment the series that we did out of Arkansas,
``Southern Storytellers'', that is just one little example. Ten
percent of our schedule is news. The rest of it is either
children's programming or programming based on history to give
us all a collective expression. And we are constantly looking
to making sure that we are bringing forward a diversity of
viewpoints and perspectives and experiences that really do make
up the fabric of this country.
Mr. Burchett. OK. NPR's Senior Editor, Leonard, has been
mentioned before, but he has quoted as saying, ``An open-minded
spirit no longer exists within NPR, and now, predictably, we do
not have an audience that reflects America,'' yet you stated
that the audience does reflect America. He was suspended
without pay for 5 days for saying this, and, of course, he
eventually resigned in April 2024. You have also stated that
Federal funding is essential for NPR to operate, but also claim
only 1 percent of your funding comes from the Federal
Government. Which is it?
Ms. Maher. Mr. Berliner was suspended for the outside work
policy, not for what he said, sir. In terms of Federal funding,
the Federal funds go to support our operation of the public
radio satellite system, which enables all of our local stations
to be able to communicate information and broadcast,
including----
Mr. Burchett. As I stated earlier, ma'am, funding is very
fungible. It flows wherever it needs to. I do not buy that
argument.
Ms. Maher. We do have a separate policy, sir.
Mr. Burchett. I wonder if any of the members of the
committee would comment real quickly. Would you agree that Real
America's Voice, Newsmax, Fox, or NewsNation, if they were to
see Federal funds, would you all support that? Yes or no. Mr.
Ulman, yes or no?
Mr. Ulman. I would have to get back to you on that.
Mr. Burchett. Ma'am?
Ms. Kerger. I actually do not have an opinion about that.
Mr. Burchett. Ma'am?
Ms. Maher. I do not have an opinion about that, sir. Sir,
that would be Congress' decision.
Mr. Burchett. Thank you, Chairlady.
Ms. Greene. Thank you. I now yield to the gentleman from
California, Mr. Khanna, for 5 minutes.
Mr. Khanna. Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you for
allowing me to waive on to the Committee. Mr. Gonzalez, I read
with interest your testimony. It was so angry, so I thought I
would try to lighten things up a little bit. Who are three of
your favorite characters on ``Daniel Tiger'' or what episodes
are your favorites?
Mr. Gonzalez. Representative Khanna, thank you very much
for the opportunity to lighten up. Again, I think I am taking a
time machine here. ``Sesame Street'' went to HBO----
Mr. Khanna. Daniel Tiger, do you have some favorite
characters, O the owl? Any of them?
Mr. Gonzalez. No, none.
Mr. Khanna. What does ``ugga mugga'' mean to you?
Mr. Gonzalez. Nothing.
Mr. Khanna. You have never heard the expression, ``ugga
mugga?''
Mr. Gonzalez. I do not think so, no.
Mr. Khanna. It is affection. Have you ever watched a
``Daniel Tiger'' show or know any families who watch a ``Daniel
Tiger'' show?
Mr. Gonzalez. I do not think so, no.
Mr. Khanna. You have never watched one?
Mr. Gonzalez. I have never seen ``Daniel Tiger''. Sorry,
I----
Mr. Khanna. Do you know what ``Daniel Tiger'' is a
successor to?
Mr. Gonzalez. I do not know ``Daniel Tiger'', so I do not
know what he is a successor to.
Mr. Khanna. No, the show. What it is a successor to? Do you
know?
Mr. Gonzalez. No.
Mr. Khanna. You really do not know, honestly?
Mr. Gonzalez. No, I really do not.
Mr. Khanna. It is all over history. It is a successor to
``Mr. Rogers.''
Mr. Gonzalez. Oh, there you go. OK. Mr. Rogers I know.
Mr. Khanna. OK. Are you familiar with his 1969 testimony?
Mr. Gonzalez. I am.
Mr. Khanna. I want to quote because it is one of my
favorites. I studied this actually going to school. It is some
of the most effective testimony in Congress. He said, ``I give
an expression of care every day to each child to help him
realize that he is unique. I end the program by saying you have
made this day a special day by just your being you. There is no
person in the whole world like you, and I like you just the way
you are.'' Senator Pastore, who was a hard-headed fiscal
conservative, said he got goosebumps by that testimony and it
is what convinced him to fund the public broadcast. You have
said you would not have funded it. Do you think Senator Pastore
made a mistake back then?
Mr. Gonzalez. Oh, yes, absolutely. I think I agree with
Fred Friendly, who testified and said----
Mr. Khanna. You would have voted against----
Mr. Gonzalez. I would have voted, yes, I do not think that
you should have state broadcasters.
Mr. Khanna. Now, what is the cost of public broadcasting as
a percent of the Federal budget?
Mr. Gonzalez. I do not know, but it is a----
Mr. Khanna. Come on. You are talking about the $36 trillion
of debt that we have. You are saying this is a really important
thing that we need to cut. You did not read about what percent
it is?
Mr. Gonzalez. It is important in principle, and it is----
Mr. Khanna. The principle is a different thing. You are
saying this is an effective strategy to cut debt, and you have
no idea what percent?
Mr. Gonzalez. It was 5 percent of the discretionary cuts in
the GOP----
Mr. Khanna. It is .01 percent.
Mr. Gonzalez. Right, but it was 5 percent of the
discretionary cuts in the 2017 budget.
Mr. Khanna. Point-one percent of the Federal budget. That
is one of the reasons Senator Pastore said, you know, it is
worth it in an investment in American kids. Now, you said
Sesame Street is a private organization or Sesame Street is
going private. I did not understand that because Sesame
Workshop is a nonprofit. What did you mean by private?
Mr. Gonzalez. Well, I mean, it is a nonprofit. It is
separate from----
Mr. Khanna. OK. But it gets public funding. Were you
talking about the HBO thing?
Mr. Gonzalez. Yes.
Mr. Khanna. Do you realize that HBO just canceled with them
and----
Mr. Gonzalez. I do, yes.
Mr. Khanna. And the reason they canceled them, and I am
trying to explain why Senator Pastore funded this, and if you
talk to families who watch ``Daniel Tiger'', maybe you would
appreciate it. The reason they canceled it is because it was
not making a profit because when you try to do ``Daniel Tiger''
or ``Sesame Street'', and you try to do what Mr. Rogers was
talking about, helping the emotional and social development of
kids, it is not easy. You got to hire people who are child
psychologists. You have to hire people who are educationalists.
A lot goes into this, and HBO said, you know what? It is not
making money. We would rather put on things that are geared
toward adults or that are going to be conflicts. We are not
making money on this.
And the whole reason Senator Pastore said that we are going
to fund this, I know you kind of mocked in your testimony the
kids, but the whole reason was that when you make programming
for children to help their social and emotional development, it
costs so much money to do, and it is a public good, then not
everything has to be about profit. Do you have any idea what it
takes to produce ``Daniel Tiger'', who all they hired? Did you
ever try to figure it out?
Mr. Gonzalez. No, but I can tell you that the market said
that there was not enough demand for it and that is the reason
why HBO got rid of it.
Mr. Khanna. Right.
Mr. Gonzalez. Because there was not enough demand.
Mr. Khanna. Yes. That is exactly the right point. Are you
saying that everything in American society needs to be driven
by the profit motive? There is not enough demand on getting
ratings for things that help the social and economic
development of kids, but you know what Mr. Rogers understood,
what we have forgotten in this country? Some things are more
valuable than money. At a time where a country is polarized, I
wish we had a little more empathy and caring, and that is not a
partisan issue. That is an American issue, and I would
recommend you rewatch that testimony from Mr. Rogers. I hope
the whole country would watch it.
Mr. Gonzalez. I have watched it, and we are $36 trillion in
debt.
Ms. Greene. I now recognize the gentleman from Missouri,
Mr. Burlison, for 5 minutes.
Mr. Burlison. Thank you, Madam Chair. You know, I think
that it is important to bring this conversation into the
context that needs to be said, which is that we are $36
trillion in debt as a Nation. We are spending 20 percent of
every dollar that comes in from taxpayers just to cover the
interest, and guess what? American people, bad news, interest
rates are going up, so that 20 percent is going to get worse
and worse.
We had Ray Dalio come in and tell Congress that we are
entering potentially dark territory. There are a number of red
flags. We are at the worst level of debt than we were after we
left the World War II, OK? We are at that level of debt, and we
did not just fight a war. We were facing potential wars and
conflicts. We are at that level of debt and we did not just
emerge from a recession or depression. If that happens today,
you will see the dollar no longer be the world reserve
currency, and we will be in serious trouble, and so that is the
context that we are in. Look, if there was all the money in the
world, it is fine to throw money around, but we do not have all
the money in the world, and the question that we have at hand
today is, is it appropriate to spend taxpayer dollars on things
that may not be necessary anymore?
And so, my question, Mr. Gonzalez, at one point in time,
there was state-sponsored speech directly. It was the form of
town criers, correct? So, government used to fund people to go
out in the street and deliver the news of the day vocally at
street corners, correct?
Mr. Gonzalez. Yes.
Mr. Burlison. OK. Why don't we do that today?
Mr. Gonzalez. Well, I think it is because we would have
better ways of delivering the news.
Mr. Burlison. I mean, I think you get my point. Like,
today, at one point in time, there was very limited access to
news and there was an appropriate time where potentially, we
needed to have state-sponsored news, but do we need that today?
Mr. Gonzalez. No, we do not, and may I quote Thomas
Jefferson on this very point, since you bring this up? He said,
``To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the
propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors is
sinful and tyrannical.'' This is what I base my opposition to
public funding for media.
Mr. Burlison. Yes, and that is why I think that given this
context, like, let us be real. It was said that we are
attacking free speech. This is state-sponsored speech. And the
very reason why we have, you know, these witnesses before us
today is not because they are totally being funded or
completely being funded. We are not bringing in Disney Channel
in here, right? We are not bringing in National Geographic,
right, for their content. The reason why we are having this
conversation is because we are funding you, and because we are
funding you, the taxpayers get to have an opportunity to ask
why are we funding some of this content that they might
disagree with, right?
Mr. Gonzalez. Yes. No, that is completely right. In fact, I
think that PBS and NPR, but especially PBS, will thrive on the
membership model. They keep saying it is such a small
percentage, well, if it is--the public funding--if it is such a
small percentage, then no problem.
Mr. Burlison. Yes. So, Ms. Maher, I am going to ask a very
difficult question, but if you are in my shoes and you have to
face the fact, can we fund Social Security or do we spend money
on NPR, which would you choose?
Ms. Maher. Congressman, I would argue that in one of the--
--
Mr. Burlison. Which, if you had to pick, if you were forced
to make a decision, there was not enough money to go around,
Social Security or NPR?
Ms. Maher. We know how important public media is to our
Nation's seniors, sir.
Mr. Burlison. More important than Social Security? I think
American people would disagree.
Ms. Maher. I think that----
Mr. Burlison. Ms. Kerger, let me ask this. Would it be more
appropriate to fund PBS or to fund veterans' healthcare? If
given limited resources, which is where we are at?
Ms. Kerger. I recognize the limited resources, and I feel
that both are important for this country.
Mr. Burlison. I think what the American people want to know
is when they are sending money, their taxpayer dollars, and
they are funding things like Independent Lens, and look, I like
some of the content on your stations. I love NOVA, but you know
what? NOVA competes with National Geographic in nature. Why are
we funding something that competes with these private sector
industries? I like ``Sesame Street'', but I also know that it
is competing directly with ``Handy Manny'', ``Doc McStuffins'',
and ``Little Einsteins'', right? Those exist, and we are not
funding them. They are not here having to defend their content.
But because we are funding it, I am going to ask you, why are
we funding in episodes of Independent Lens about episode called
``Real Boy: A Trans Teen Navigates Adolescence, Sobriety, and
Physical and Emotional Ramifications?'' That is what the
American people want to know. Social Security----
Ms. Greene. We are out of time, but our witnesses can
answer the questions.
Ms. Kerger. Thank you, Madam Chair. That was a documentary
that was produced for adults as part of our primetime audience,
and it was part of a point of view that we share to try to help
people understand the wide breadth of experiences of people
across the country.
Mr. Burlison. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Ms. Greene. I now recognize the gentlewoman from the
District of Columbia, Ms. Norton, for 5 minutes.
Ms. Norton. Thank you, Madam Chair. I would like to thank
the witnesses for being here today. I am a strong supporter of
public broadcasting, and I am a regular listener and watcher of
the public broadcasting stations here in D.C. Public
broadcasting is a public good. WETA is D.C.'s local PBS station
and is proudly home to the world's longest-running high school
quiz show. For over 60 years, the show, ``It's Academic'', has
showcased some of the best and brightest high school students
in the Capital Region. President Reagan once praised ``It's
Academic'' as ``a reminder of the importance of education,''
and even Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas made a guest
appearance. One area student who competed on the show said,
``It has made me a lot smarter,'' and ``getting to say that I
have been on a TV show is really cool.'' ``It's Academic'' is
just one example of local public media programming that
celebrates and lifts up the community. Mr. Ulman, in your
experience as head of the Alaska Public Media, why is it
important for public media to elevate local voices?
Mr. Ulman. Thank you so much for that question. There are
stories to be told all over this great Nation of ours, and one
of the things that I take the utmost pride in is being someone
who can provide the strategy and build the resources and build
the capacity to ensure that we can capture video about those
uniquely Alaskan stories. We can capture audio about those
uniquely Alaskan stories, and what we do is we take that
opportunity to not only tell those stories for ourselves within
our great state, but we also work with our national partners.
This local national partnership is essential. Without PBS,
without NPR, you would not hear stories, news stories, public
affairs stories, community stories from Alaska. You would not
see them on the PBS ``NewsHour''. This is vital. It is vital
for Alaskans to know that they are connected to their Nation
and that what we do in Alaska matters to our Nation. Thank you,
again, for that question.
Ms. Norton. Ms. Kerger, I would love to hear your bigger
future picture take on this. If PBS stations are suddenly taken
off the air, what would be lost to communities across the
country?
Ms. Kerger. I have spent a good part of my time as the
president of PBS traveling and visiting our stations across the
country because I feel for me to do my job well, I need to
understand what the role of our stations are in communities.
That means spending time not just with station management, but
also with people in the community. So, I have been to all 50
states, and the reason that we are here and the reason that we
are arguing so passionately for funding, recognizing there are
very difficult challenges in our country right now, is that
many of our smaller and, actually, medium-sized stations would
not exist without the Federal appropriation.
And when you look at a station like Cookeville, Tennessee,
which serves part of Appalachia, 50 percent of their budget
comes from the Federal Government. Those are stations that I
have seen that have small staffs that do extraordinary work,
and those are the stations that I worry would not survive. This
would be an existential moment for them, and that is why I
think this is so important.
Ms. Norton. The D.C. area NPR station similarly provides
acclaimed programming, including up-to-the minute news and
local shows exploring the D.C. cultural scene and sharing
stories from all over the city, including historically
marginalized areas. The station also produces award-winning
journalism, such as an investigative feature on local families
coping with sickle cell disease throughout the country. More
and more local news outlets are closing each day at a rate of
more than two per week. This has made public radio reporting
all the more important. Ms. Maher, why is it beneficial for
journalists to live in the communities they cover?
Ms. Greene. We will let the witness quickly answer, and
then we are out of time.
Ms. Maher. Thank you so much, Madam Chair. We find that
enabling public radio to continue to be funded allows for us to
meet the needs of people who live in news deserts. And having
journalists who are from that community means they can
prioritize the needs of that community, whether it is sickle
cell issues in D.C., or whether it is the price of sorghum in
our agricultural heartland, whether it is thinking about the
wildfires that we see across the center and west of our
country, or whether it is the impact of storms across the Gulf
and southern parts of our country.
We recognize local journalists. They speak the language.
They recognize the pronunciations of the places that they come
from. They come from the community. It is tremendous value to
enable that we are for America, from Americans, and all
American voices are heard.
Ms. Greene. The gentlelady's time has expired. I now
recognize the gentleman from Texas, Mr. Fallon, for 5 minutes.
Mr. Fallon. Thank you, Madam Chair. Ms. Maher, do you
believe that the National Public Radio takes a balanced and
fair approach to news, politics, culture, et cetera?
Ms. Maher. Mr. Fallon, thank you for the question. I came
into National Public Radio----
Mr. Fallon. And I apologize, it is just that we have such
limited time.
Ms. Maher. Of course.
Mr. Fallon. You believe that to be true?
Ms. Maher. I believe that we have work to do. We always do
in order to improve and serve all Americans.
Mr. Fallon. I think it is more accurate than not that you
are either fair or you are unfair. So, what do you think you
are?
Ms. Maher. I believe we wake up every day with a desire to
be fair and it is part of why----
Mr. Fallon. I mean, that you are fair? You have a desire to
be fair. OK. So, you would not describe NPR as objective and
nonpartisan?
Ms. Maher. I would.
Mr. Fallon. You would. OK. Ms. Kerger, same question for
you. Would you believe that PBS is fair and objective and
nonpartisan?
Ms. Kerger. Yes.
Mr. Fallon. OK. Thank you. Thank you for the quick answer,
too. So, I find it interesting that the CPB's recent goal was
to promote efforts that ensure fact-based journalism that
promotes a symphony of ideological viewpoints. You both agree
with that goal?
Ms. Maher. Yes.
Ms. Kerger. Yes.
Mr. Fallon. All right. Wonderful. So, Ms. Kerger, in 2023,
when PBS had a program, ``Washington Week'', with the Atlantic,
and when President Biden's mental acuity was questioned, one of
the reporters claimed the GOP was lying. Another reporter,
Jeffrey Goldberg, who has been in the news of late, described
Biden as, ``mentally acute.'' Were you aware if there were any
dissenting opinions on that program that day?
Ms. Kerger. I do not know from that day, no.
Mr. Fallon. There were not, but fortunately, and there was
a debate, and I believe, June 2024, where the American people
in the world found out just who was lying: the Democrats,
Jeffrey Goldberg, and PBS. Ms. Maher, I am sure you are aware
that Hunter Biden had a laptop.
Ms. Maher. I am, sir, yes.
Mr. Fallon. OK. And there were many stories written about
said laptop?
Ms. Maher. Yes, sir.
Mr. Fallon. And in 2020, unfortunately, NPR's managing
editor for news refused to cover the story, and he branded it a
``waste of time, not a real story, and a distraction.'' And
instead, unfortunately, of NPR investigating, they ran a puff
piece that led with, ``Experts say attack on Hunter Biden
addiction deepens stigma for millions.'' It is unfortunate that
NPR ignored the Hunter Biden laptop story, but you all did talk
quite a bit about the debunked Russia collusion. Do you know
how many times NPR interviewed Adam Schiff about the Russia
collusion?
Ms. Maher. Congressman, I would love to say that we
actually believe we made a mistake on the Hunter Biden laptop
story.
Mr. Fallon. And I appreciate that. Thank you. How many
times did you all interview Adam Schiff about the Russia
collusion?
Ms. Maher. I am sorry, sir. I do not have that number.
Mr. Fallon. It was 25 times. You know how many times NPR
interviewed the Chairman of this Committee, Oversight
Committee, Jamie Comer, about the Biden impeachment inquiry,
the Hunter Biden tax evasion, and illicit business dealings
with Biden family?
Ms. Maher. I am sorry, sir, I do not know.
Mr. Fallon. I believe that is zero. So, it is 25 to zero.
Ms. Kerger, you are aware there is a political spectrum, goes
all the way from the far right to the far left and everywhere
in between. Would it trouble you to hear that for 6 months,
there was an analysis done on PBS ``NewsHour'' from June to
November 2023 where they found that ``far right,'' that term
was used 162 times and ``far left'' was only used 6 times? Do
you find that troubling?
Ms. Kerger. I do not know the study that you are referring
to, and I would be very interested in seeing it and
understanding how they came up with those numbers.
Mr. Fallon. Media Research Center did a 6-month analysis.
And it is not how do you find it. You say, ``far right.'' It is
terms. They used the term, ``far right,'' 162 times, ``far
left'' 6 times. That is a 96 to 4 percent skew. You are also
aware that you covered the GOP and Democratic National
Conventions in 2024?
Ms. Maher. Yes, we did.
Mr. Fallon. OK. Interestingly, 72 percent of the coverage
of the GOP convention was negative; 88 percent of the
Democratic Convention was positive. Should not be surprising
when you have anchors like Amina Noah, who described the
Republican rhetoric as ``outright racism, echoing White
supremacy.''
Ms. Maher, NPR, you believe your reporters are fair, they
are fair and they are working at it?
Ms. Maher. I believe that they work to be, every day, sir.
Mr. Fallon. They are non-biased, and yet you have the voter
registration issue. I mean, we are all human beings. We are all
going to see through the world through a certain lens, and are
you aware of any registered Republicans in your newsroom?
Ms. Maher. I could not say registered, but I know we have
conservatives in our newsroom, yes.
Mr. Fallon. OK. So, the recent registration, when it was
looked at, 87 Democrats and zero Republicans registered.
Ms. Maher. I found that very concerning, sir.
Mr. Fallon. Yes, I would. Not even 40 to 30 or 50 to 20, 87
to zero. But it should not be surprising when their own CEO
says things like, ``I am so done with late stage capitalism,''
or calls the President of United States a deranged racist
sociopath, or that America is addicted to White supremacy. So,
billions have gone into both of your coffers over the last
several decades, and I understand why Democrats on this
Committee are going to viciously and vehemently defend you all
because you become a propaganda wing of the Democratic Party.
Sixty-seven percent of your viewers and listeners identify as
Democrat, with only 12 percent conservative, and you become a
sandbox for leftist propagandists to frolic on taxpayer dime
and no more. And when you said in the beginning you are going
to promote a symphony of ideological viewpoints, yes, you do if
you were left, leaning left, far left, more remarkably Marxist.
I yield back.
Ms. Greene. The gentleman's time has expired. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Fallon. I now recognize the gentleman from
Texas, Mr. Gill.
Mr. Gill. Thank you, Chairwoman Greene, and I apologize. I
am getting over a cold, so I am losing my voice here. Ms.
Maher, I want to start with you just generally. Would you say
you generally agree or disagree with the following statement:
``The history of all hitherto existing society is the history
of class struggles?''
Ms. Maher. I would not say I agree with that.
Mr. Gill. That is good to hear. It is interesting because a
lot of your thinking, as expressed by your public statements,
is deeply infused with economic and cultural Marxism. Do you
believe that America is addicted to White supremacy?
Ms. Maher. I believe that I tweeted that, and as I have
said earlier, I believe much of my thinking has evolved over
the last half decade.
Mr. Gill. It has evolved. Why did you tweet that?
Ms. Maher. I do not recall the exact context, sir, so I
would not be able to say.
Mr. Gill. OK. Do you believe that America believes in Black
plunder and White democracy?
Ms. Maher. I do not believe that, sir.
Mr. Gill. You tweeted that in reference to a book you were
reading at the time apparently, ``The Case for Reparations.''
Ms. Maher. I do not think I have ever read that book, sir.
Mr. Gill. You tweeted about it. You said you took a day off
to fully read ``The Case for Reparations.'' You put that on
Twitter in January 2020.
Ms. Maher. I apologize. I do not recall that I did.
Mr. Gill. OK.
Ms. Maher. No doubt that your tweet there is correct, but I
do not recall that.
Mr. Gill. OK. Do you believe that White people inherently
feel superior to other races?
Ms. Maher. I do not.
Mr. Gill. You do not? You tweeted something to that effect.
You said, ``I grew up feeling superior. How White of me.'' Why
did you tweet that?
Ms. Maher. I think I was probably reflecting on what it was
to be to grow up in an environment where I had lots of
advantages.
Mr. Gill. It sounds like you are saying that White people
feel superior.
Ms. Maher. I do not believe that anybody feels that way,
sir. I was just reflecting on my own experiences.
Mr. Gill. Do you think that White people should pay
reparations?
Ms. Maher. I have never said that, sir.
Mr. Gill. Yes, you did. You said it in January 2020. You
tweeted, ``Yes, the North; yes, all of us; yes, America; yes,
our original collective sin and unpaid debt; yes, reparations,
yes; on this day.''
Ms. Maher. I do not believe that was a reference to fiscal
reparations, sir.
Mr. Gill. What kind of reparations was it a reference to?
Ms. Maher. I think it was just a reference to the idea that
we all owe much to the people who came before us.
Mr. Gill. That is a bizarre way to frame what you tweeted.
OK. How much reparations have you personally paid?
Ms. Maher. Sir, I do not believe that I have ever paid
reparations.
Mr. Gill. OK. Just for everybody else?
Ms. Maher. I am not asking anyone for reparations.
Mr. Gill. Seems to be what you are suggesting. Do you
believe that looting is morally wrong?
Ms. Maher. I believe that looting is illegal, and I
referred to it as counterproductive. I think it should be
prosecuted according to the law.
Mr. Gill. Do you believe it is morally wrong, though?
Ms. Maher. Of course.
Mr. Gill. Of course. Then why did you refer to it as
counterproductive? Very different way to describe it.
Ms. Maher. It is both morally wrong and counterproductive,
as well as illegal.
Mr. Gill. You tweeted, ``It is hard to be mad about
protests,'' in reference to the BLM protests, ``not
prioritizing the private property of a system of oppression.''
You did not condemn the looting. You said that it was
counterproductive. NPR also promoted a book called, ``In
Defense of Looting.'' Do you think that that is an appropriate
use of taxpayer dollars?
Ms. Maher. I am unfamiliar with that book, sir, and I do
not believe that was at my time at NPR.
Mr. Gill. You tweeted that you read that book, but----
Ms. Maher. I do not believe that I did read that book, sir.
Mr. Gill. Do you think that--a few years ago NPR educated
America about ``the whole community of genderqueer dinosaur
enthusiasts.'' Do you think that that is an appropriate use of
tax dollars?
Ms. Maher. I was not at NPR at the time, sir.
Mr. Gill. That is not the question, though. Do you think
that that is an appropriate use of our tax dollars?
Ms. Maher. I think our tax dollars that we use are to be
able to provide a wide range of----
Mr. Gill. I will take that as a, yes, you do believe that
that is appropriate. Your health advisor at NPR also stated in
an interview that, ``Fear of fatness is more harmful than
actual fat.'' Would you like to explain how fear of fatness is
more harmful than actual fat? That is directly an editorial at
NPR.
Ms. Maher. I am not familiar with the editorial, and I do
not believe that was published during my time here.
Mr. Gill. It is called, ``Diet Culture is Everywhere. Here
is How to Fight It.'' Do you think that that is an appropriate
use of taxpayer dollars?
Ms. Maher. I think any reporting on health is an
appropriate use of taxpayer dollars, yes.
Mr. Gill. And you think that editorializing that fat is not
unhealthy is appropriate?
Ms. Maher. I do not know what that article is, sir, and I
am not familiar with it, so I could not say.
Mr. Gill. This is a fake news. Do you think that basic
accommodations, like doorways or seat belts, represent ``latent
fat phobia?''
Ms. Maher. I do not have an opinion, sir.
Mr. Gill. It is also from NPR. Do you think civility is
racist?
Ms. Maher. No, sir.
Mr. Gill. No. Your outlet ran an article entitled, ``When
Civility is Used as a Cudgel Against People of Color,'' that
was on ``All Things Considered''. Would you like to explain?
Ms. Maher. Well, I am not on the editorial side, sir. I am
not familiar with that story.
Mr. Gill. You talk about how NPR is news. This is
editorialization, and I will read it: ``For many people of
Color in the United States, civility is not so much social
lubricant as it is a vehicle for containing them, preventing
social mobility, and preserving the status quo.'' This is
garbage. I will spend all of my time doing everything I can to
ensure you guys never get another dollar of taxpayer funding.
This is complete garbage. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Ms. Greene. Thank you, Mr. Gill. I now recognize the
gentleman from Georgia, Mr. Jack, for 5 minutes.
Mr. Jack. Well, thank you very much, Madam Chair. I would
like to just start and build off of something Mr. Fallon noted,
and, Ms. Maher, I think you noted and just to confirm within
your statement to him that NPR failed to accurately report the
circumstances around the content within Hunter Biden's laptop
story. Is that fair to categorize your statement?
Ms. Maher. Our current editorial leadership believes that
we have made a mistake not reporting the story and more
reporting it earlier, yes.
Mr. Jack. And I recognize you were not there at the time,
but what intuitional controls--what have you done to ensure
that never happens again?
Ms. Maher. A number of things, sir, and thank you for the
opportunity to speak to them. We have hired an additional
editor corps, or which we refer to as our editorial review, to
make sure that all stories, before they go out, are
comprehensive and well-reviewed. We have instituted a monthly
review to ensure that the most challenging stories of every
month, that we go back and we look at what we may have missed,
in order to not miss issues again, and change processes and
policies to be able to have more robust conversation, and to
ensure all areas and all views are considered.
We have hired analysts to be able to count the number of
stories that we are running on any particular issue, including
whose voices are represented. We have moved from bringing
pundits on air to trying to bring direct policymakers on air so
that we can ask questions of policymakers rather than hearing
through other people's perspectives. Those are just a few of
the things we have done so far. I have got a couple others, if
you have time.
Mr. Jack. Thank you, and you can submit those for the
record.
Would you suggest then that the failure to accurately
report those circumstances and the content around that story,
would you suggest today, as I feel, and many others feel, that,
that impacted the 2020 election?
Ms. Maher. I could not say, sir. I do not know.
Mr. Jack. Well, I just asked because you have a broad
viewership, broad listenership. And I am just curious if it is
so broad and it is so necessary for us to continue to give
taxpayer funds, as you all submit to me, to misaccurately
report something that is incredibly important around a 2020
election is very concerning, so welcome another thought from
you there.
Ms. Maher. I believe that we made a mistake, as I said, and
I believe that we have taken that to heart and are focused on
how do we report, and report effectively in a timely fashion,
on all the issues that matter to all Americans. I hear your
concern, sir, and I want you to know that we are truly working
on this.
Mr. Jack. I would like to spend the rest of my time talking
about funding, and I know that some of my colleagues talked
about it a little bit today, but could you walk us through the
amount of money that NPR receives from CPB annually?
Ms. Maher. Yes. Sure, sir. We received $11.2 million this
past year, the majority of which goes to the public radio
satellite system, which we operate on behalf of the entire
public radio network. We also received a smaller amount of
funding in the course of the past year that went to help us
hire those additional editors and analysts in order to be able
to beef up that editorial review. We received funding to
support the coverage of the recent election in order to make
sure that we had our journalists all across the country and
were able to speak to Americans of all different political
backgrounds.
Mr. Jack. And what percentage of your budget share comes
from the Federal Government?
Ms. Maher. Depending on how you count it, sir, it is less
than 5 percent.
Mr. Jack. And to help me understand, too, the CPB, you
know, as I understand it, Congress has appropriated $500
million to CPB. It flows out, and I think smaller radio
stations go and apply for grants for it. Do you receive payment
from smaller radio stations through licensing agreements and
things of that nature?
Ms. Maher. We do, and the fees for that are designed around
the amount of funding that they get from private member
donations, so the fees are not designed around Federal funding.
They are designed around what sort of direct private support
and donations they receive from members and listeners.
Mr. Jack. Well, I noted Mr. Jordan today suggested that you
are fundraising off of this hearing today. And a question that
I have then, if you receive less than 5 percent and over and
over today you have said that private funding helps support the
mission and the work of NPR, could NPR survive without the 5
percent that we give NPR annually?
Ms. Maher. My belief is that the funding is essential to
the public radio system, and that is not only the 246 member
stations, but the 1,300 stations across the Nation so that we
are able as a network to serve all Americans with a hundred
percent coverage. If Federal funding for our network goes away,
it means that people in rural parts of America, places where
they cannot afford to make private donations to support their
local journalism, those will be harmed. But sir, if I may, the
bigger harm as well or the additional harm is that Americans in
places that are affluent or do have many media choices will not
be able to hear from their fellow Americans that are often
underheard.
Mr. Jack. Bottom line, if the 5 percent went away, would
NPR still exist?
Ms. Maher. Well, it would be incredibly damaging to the
Federal, excuse me, to the National Public Radio system.
Mr. Jack. I yield back.
Ms. Greene. Turn your microphone on.
Mr. Gill. Madam Chair, I would just like to submit to the
record this flash drive.
Ms. Greene. You ask unanimous consent?
Mr. Gill. I ask unanimous consent to submit to the record
this flash drive containing six feet worth of documents
documenting NPR and PBS has political bias.
Ms. Greene. Without objection, so ordered.
Mr. Gill. Thank you.
Ms. Greene. In closing, I want to thank our witnesses once
again for their testimony today. I now yield to the Ranking
Member Lynch for his closing remarks.
Mr. Lynch. Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you for having
this hearing. I want to thank the witnesses for your
willingness to testify. In closing, I want to follow-up on Mr.
Khanna's point. I would point out to my colleagues that there
are some government functions that are not merely transactions.
There are some undertakings that we, as a country, engage in,
which are not necessarily justified by cash on the barrel at
the point of purchase. Everything is not a transaction. It is
not like selling a car, although that is exactly what the
President was doing on the lawn of the White House the other
day.
Sometimes a government program is a long-term investment. I
think that applies to public broadcasting, like when you use
public television to teach kids their numbers and their
alphabet because in some households, that might be the only
source of instruction available. More often it could be an
exercise in trust because a lot of our parents out there, 88
percent of parents, said they trusted PBS Kids. Or when you
have a documentary given by a historian, like Ken Burns, and he
does research and drills down on the letters and firsthand
correspondence of Civil War veterans and families North and
South and gives us the hard facts of the Civil War. Hopefully,
we are teaching or at least reminding people of the
wrongfulness of slavery and the consequences from a system of
bondage and the horrific price that was paid, and perhaps is
still being paid.
Everything is not a transaction, but I do believe that some
people see it that way. I think President Trump and Elon Musk
see life, often, as a series of transactions. Much of the
support we provide to seniors is not a profitable transaction
because they are older and vulnerable, but they have paid for
their fair share into Social Security. That is why FDR designed
it that way. Some people just wanted the government to promise
to pay a pension, but FDR knew that if he had Americans pay
into that system, that their sense of fairness would cause them
to defend that pension, and so they would fight like hell to
get what they had coming. It sounds like we might have to test
that theory if Elon Musk and Howard Lutnick have their way.
Another thing we do that is not necessarily profitable in a
financial sense, is that we care for our veterans. It is a
promise we made to our sons and daughters in uniform, and it is
the right thing to do. And veterans' care and veteran benefits
are special because those benefits are owed to every veteran
who lies in a hospital bed in every VA hospital across the
country, because those benefits are for courageous service
previously and honorably rendered to our country. And so, now
it is the time for America and Congress to fulfill their
obligation as promised. That is not a transaction. But because
of that cost, the Trump Administration VA has announced 80,000
layoffs at the VA.
Trump and Vance also see support for Ukraine as a
transaction, even though they have been invaded by Russia and
are fighting for their lives and their freedom. As we saw a
couple of weeks ago, for President Trump and Mr. Vance, it was
a power transaction. And as the President insisted, Zelensky
had no cards to play, and as Vance pointed out, he refused to
sufficiently bend the knee and he did not dress up. These
examples point out the nature of the presidency.
Throughout our history, the President has never been viewed
as the huckster-in-chief. Instead, our most successful
Presidents have occupied a position of what could be seen as
moral leadership, which might cause some to conclude that
America is bankrupt right now, but I have hope in the genius of
our Constitution that the checks and balances of our government
framework might once again compensate for that shortcoming in
the White House. It could be that Congress might provide that
balance, or it may be the judicial branch that steps into the
breach, or it might require the ultimate source of power in our
system, the people themselves to demand that we fulfill our
obligations to all those most vulnerable in our country,
wounded veterans, seniors, children and the poor to whom so
much is owed.
Madam Chair, I appreciate the opportunity here to address
this issue. I would have preferred that we were talking about
the security breach that occurred recently, but perhaps that
will be for another day, but I thank you for your courtesy, and
I yield back.
Ms. Greene. I now recognize myself for closing remarks. The
United States is $36 trillion in debt. In Fiscal Year 2024, the
government spent over $1.8 trillion more than it took in, and
in Fiscal Year 2025, the interest on our debt is expected to
exceed $1 trillion. As we continue investigating waste, fraud,
and abuse, and we can look no further than the Corporation for
Public Broadcasting, the LGBTQ indoctrination of our children,
the systematic racism narrative, and the support for censorship
being pushed by the heads of NPR and PBS are just several of
the many abuses of taxpayer dollars. And if you are one of the
select few who might support such content, you can personally
support and fund it with your own money through private
donations because the reality is the United States of America
is broke and cannot afford it.
And after all, PBS and NPR are already fundraising off of
this Committee hearing. The American people are closely
following along today in this long-awaited hearing to hear the
case for why Americans hard-earned tax dollars should continue
for public broadcasting. I think from what we have heard here
today, the American people will not continue to allow such
propaganda to be funded through the Federal Government with
their hard-earned tax dollars. The Corporation for Public
Broadcasting, that we give over half a billion dollars to, no
longer serves the public. It serves a narrow audience of
wealthy, liberal elites who are out of touch with everyday
Americans. Not only have the times changed and the American
people who once needed these outlets can now access the news
anywhere at any time, but the content that is being put out
through the state-sponsored outlets is so radical, it is
brainwashing the American people, and, more significantly,
American children, with un-American, anti-family, pro-crime,
fake news.
The American people do not support their taxpayer dollars
going to NPR articles, like ``How is sex determined, scientists
say it is complicated,'' which discusses how biological sex is
not limited to male or female. Or another article about how
stories on crime are rife with misinformation and racism, or
about how birds and trees are racist. Over a 7-month period,
the Media Research Center discovered the PBS ``NewsHour'' gave
over 90 percent of the airtime to the left on gender ideology
stories. Ninety percent. As mentioned earlier, PBS was the
outlet that featured the child predator drag queen on the
education show for kids ages three to eight years old. And to
clarify the record, because our witness, Ms. Kerger, lied under
oath and said it was not featured on PBS, this show was aired
on PBS on April 1, 2021, and we will take a look at this video
right now. We are using a TV today because our audio system is
having problems. Let us go ahead and watch this video.
[Video shown.]
Ms. Greene. The hips go, swish, swish, swish. The shoulders
go, shimmy, shimmy, shimmy. That is repulsive. That is not what
children ages three to eight should ever be watching--a grown,
biological man posing as a woman. And by the way, Ms. Kerger,
that was aired on April 1, 2021, and then something happened.
It was not an accident and it was not just for a brief time
that it was up. It was aired April 1, and then somehow it
expired May 24. Later on, it was taken down. I wonder why that
was taken down.
Another egregious example includes back in 2010, PBS' Tavis
Smiley stated that Christians blow up people every single day.
I have not seen that ever happen in my life. And today, if you
look on NPR's website, there is still zero mention of any
negative coverage of any Democrat today, and trust us, there
are more than plenty of examples to pull from. How about a
Member from this Committee making fun of the Governor of Texas
for having a disability and living his life in a wheelchair,
Ms. Maher?
From headlines to podcast documentaries, to children's
programming, NPR and PBS have all but abandoned their promise
to deliver unbiased, nonpartisan, and fact-based reporting. The
American people have woken up to this nonsense and blatant
disregard for truth, and truth matters, and they will not put
up with it any longer. Contrary to the beliefs of the head of
NPR, Ms. Maher, truth is not subjective. It is actually very
important, and there are not multiple truths. There is just
one. For a civilization to exist, objective truth must exist.
It must be embraced. It must be protected. It is not a
distraction, and despite many attempts to whitewash it, truth
will prevail.
The Corporation for Public Broadcasting is using taxpayer
dollars to actively suppress the truth, suppress diverse
viewpoints, and produce some of the most outlandish, ludicrous
content. After listening to what we have heard today, we will
be calling for the complete and total defunding and dismantling
of the Corporation for Public Broadcasting. Here is how it
works in America: every single day--every single day--private
businesses operate on their own without government funding. We
believe that you all can hate us on your own dime.
With that, and without objection, all Members have 5
legislative days within which to submit materials and
additional written questions for witnesses, which will be
forwarded to the witnesses.
If there is no further business, without objection, the
Subcommittee stands adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 12:29 p.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.]
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