[House Hearing, 119 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
BUREAUCRATIC BARRIERS: MAKING VBA
EDUCATION SERVICES WORK FOR VETERANS
AND NOT THE BUREAUCRACY
=======================================================================
HEARING
before the
SUBCOMMITTEE ON ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY
of the
COMMITTEE ON VETERANS' AFFAIRS
U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
__________
TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 11, 2025
__________
Serial No. 119-4
__________
Printed for the use of the Committee on Veterans' Affairs
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Available via http://govinfo.gov
_______
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
59-614 WASHINGTON : 2025
COMMITTEE ON VETERANS' AFFAIRS
MIKE BOST, Illinois, Chairman
AUMUA AMATA COLEMAN RADEWAGEN, MARK TAKANO, California, Ranking
American Samoa, Vice-Chairwoman Member
JACK BERGMAN, Michigan JULIA BROWNLEY, California
NANCY MACE, South Carolina CHRIS PAPPAS, New Hampshire
MARIANNETTE MILLER-MEEKS, Iowa SHEILA CHERFILUS-MCCORMICK,
GREGORY F. MURPHY, North Carolina Florida
DERRICK VAN ORDEN, Wisconsin MORGAN MCGARVEY, Kentucky
MORGAN LUTTRELL, Texas DELIA RAMIREZ, Illinois
JUAN CISCOMANI, Arizona NIKKI BUDZINSKI, Illinois
KEITH SELF, Texas TIMOTHY M. KENNEDY, New York
JEN KIGGANS, Virginia MAXINE DEXTER, Oregon
ABE HAMADEH, Arizona HERB CONAWAY, New Jersey
KIMBERLYN KING-HINDS, Northern KELLY MORRISON, Minnesota
Mariana Islands
TOM BARRETT, Michigan
Jon Clark, Staff Director
Matt Reel, Democratic Staff Director
SUBCOMMITTEE ON ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY
DERRICK VAN ORDEN, Wisconsin, Chairman
JUAN CISCOMANI, Arizona CHRIS PAPPAS, New Hampshire,
ABE HAMADEH, Arizona Ranking Member
KIMBERLYN KING-HINDS, Northern MORGAN MCGARVEY, Kentucky
Mariana Islands DELIA RAMIREZ, Illinois
TOM BARRETT, Michigan TIMOTHY M. KENNEDY, New York
Pursuant to clause 2(e)(4) of Rule XI of the Rules of the House, public
hearing records of the Committee on Veterans' Affairs are also
published in electronic form. The printed hearing record remains the
official version. Because electronic submissions are used to prepare
both printed and electronic versions of the hearing record, the process
of converting between various electronic formats may introduce
unintentional errors or omissions. Such occurrences are inherent in the
current publication process and should diminish as the process is
further refined.
C O N T E N T S
----------
TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 11, 2025
Page
OPENING STATEMENTS
The Honorable Derrick Van Orden, Chairman........................ 1
The Honorable Chris Pappas, Ranking Member....................... 3
WITNESSES
Mr. Ken Smith, Acting Executive Director, Education Service,
Department of Veterans Affairs................................. 5
Accompanied by:
Mr. James Ruhlman, Deputy Director, Education Service,
Department of Veterans Affairs
APPENDIX
Prepared Statement Of Witnesses
Mr. Ken Smith Prepared Statement................................. 27
Statements For The Record
Defense Credit Union Council..................................... 35
Document for the Record Submitted by Derrick Van Orden........... 38
BUREAUCRATIC BARRIERS: MAKING VBA
EDUCATION SERVICES WORK FOR VETERANS
AND NOT THE BUREAUCRACY
----------
TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 11, 2025
Subcommittee on Economic Opportunity,
Committee on Veterans' Affairs,
House of Representatives,
Washington, D.C.
The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:14 a.m., in
room 360, Cannon House Office Building, Hon. Derrick Van Orden
(chairman of the subcommittee) presiding.
Present: Representatives Van Orden, Ciscomani, Hamadeh,
King-Hinds, Barrett, Pappas, McGarvey, Ramirez, and Kennedy.
OPENING STATEMENT OF DERRICK VAN ORDEN, CHAIRMAN
Mr. Van Orden. Good morning. The Subcommittee will come to
order. Before we begin testimony for the first hearing of the
119th Congress, I would like to introduce myself. I am Derrick
Van Orden. I think I would speak loud enough if I have that
microphone. I just figured that out. I am a retired Navy SEAL
senior chief. I am the longest serving enlisted member of the
military to ever be elected to Congress. I have used every
educational program that the Department of Defense offers,
including our Veterans Readiness and Employment (VR&E), and I
used the G.I. Bill to help educate my children.
I get all my health care through the VA. I love the VA. I
love the folks that give me my medical care. Welcome, ma'am. I
am sorry. I would love, I love our health care providers. I
love the folks that have helped me get my education.
What I despise about the VA is the bureaucracy and we waste
billions and billions of dollars supporting the bureaucracy of
VA. It is my intent to stop that.
Every single dollar that is wastefully spent is one that
does not go to a veteran, either their health care or education
or our gold star families, the benefits that they have earned
by sacrificing their family.
Essentially this is Groundhog Day. Mr. Barrett chaired the
subcommittee yesterday. It was a closed session, so I will not
described it in detail but essentially what we have identified
again is billions and billions and billions of dollars worth of
waste that the VA is responsible for through either inadequate
or no planning at all and that has got to stop.
I would be remiss not to mention my great friend, Mike, who
is no longer the ranking member. He has moved onto
appropriation. I do not know why he would want to go there, but
I would like to welcome Mr. Pappas. We had a great meeting in
private discussing your priorities, which would be veterans
homelessness, and we will be going to a field hearing to your
districts.
You have not heard this yet, but this is not a bipartisan
committee. This is a nonpartisan committee and that is, we
started that. Mike and I had a great relationship, and I expect
the same. I cannot believe Morgan is back. Good to see him. Mr.
Barrett, and ma'am, it is so wonderful to have you here.
I want to make sure that we follow through with some things
that we started in the 118th, so from the Senator Elizabeth
Dole 21st Century Veterans Healthcare and Benefits Improvement
Act we were able to pass improvements to education benefits,
homelessness prevention, homelessness prevention benefits,
Uniformed Services Employment and Reemployment Rights Act
(USERRA) and reduce the red tape of the VA
We will hear from the VA today. We have lots more to do to
this and I want to make sure that we are going to refocus the
Veterans Affairs Administration on veterans and not the
Veterans Affairs Administration. We are going to talk about
State of Education Services. The Department of Veterans Affairs
since 2020 the number of employees at the Education Services at
VA's headquarters in D.C. has nearly doubled growing from 102
to 185 in 2024. I want to say it again, the headquarters staff
has nearly doubled but the actual budget has only increased by,
it went from $1.5 billion to $12.1 billion and that is a
tremendous amount of money.
If we are spending all this money and we are increasing the
bureaucracy and not sending that to veterans benefits, that is
a problem.
I swear to God this is like Groundhog Day. I am just going
to bulletize some things here so that everybody understands for
the record. We have seen this in this hearing room contract and
oversight mistakes of the G.I., the digital G.I. Bill to the
tune of billions of dollars--excuse me, hundreds of millions of
dollars, VA bureaucrats going rogue with risk-based surveys
leading to schools backing out from accepting the G.I. bill, so
the antithesis of what the VA is supposed to be doing are
actually chasing veterans away from getting educated, an
absolutely foolish interpretation of a Supreme Court case that
will add nearly $10 billion to the deficit over the next decade
and not help anybody, a VA proposing rule to Federal Registry
using the wrong form causing schools to panic, paperwork,
government employees reinterpreting congressional law and
kicking out religious schools from our G.I. Bill. Unacceptable.
Former head of Education Services giving out his contact
information to school certifying officials because they had so
many communications issues that needed to be solved and the
list just goes on and on and on and on and on. It is going to
stop. Like this is going to stop.
I am very excited to have a new Secretary of the Veterans
Affairs. Denis was a friend of mine. I think he was undermined
and subverted by a lot of people sitting over here, permanent
bureaucrats. I firmly believe that. Denis wanted to do what was
right and his feet were knocked out from underneath him by the
permanent ruling class in Washington D.C. and those are not
elected officials, and it is going to stop.
We are going to do everything we can to make sure that
every single dollar that is allocated by this Congress goes to
help a veteran, not a bureaucrat. And so help me, God, that is
my sole intent and if I do not know how I could be more clear.
Mr. Pappas, that is how this is going to go. I yield to the
ranking member for any comments you may have, sir.
OPENING STATEMENT OF CHRIS PAPPAS, RANKING MEMBER
Mr. Pappas. Well I want to thank you first for your service
in Congress but also to our great nation and just the spirit by
which you approach your role here as a chair of this
subcommittee. I was on this subcommittee for my first two terms
in Congress. Really pleased to back and look forward to
developing a good, strong working relationship and continuing
the work that you did with Mike Levin for the last couple
years.
I want to thank you for holding this session here today. I
think we can all agree that the G.I. Bill is landmark law, and
I look forward to the work that we will do today together to
ensure that student veterans are provided the level of quality
that they deserve. I think we cannot hold this hearing today
without recognizing what is transpiring, the pressures on
federal programs and certainly on the Federal workforce as well
dedicated people that meet the needs of veterans each and every
day.
I want to take a trip back to late 2024, the final two
hearings of the Veterans Affairs Committee were on federal
agency overreach and poor performance due to staffing shortages
at the Veterans Readiness and Employment program. Since the
inauguration of President Trump, the VA has been thrown into
chaos as other federal agencies have been thrown into chaos.
Hiring freezes, pushing staff to quit, suspending grants,
eliminating programs that veterans with disabilities rely on
and frankly this congress has not stepped up to its authority
and stepped up to the plate in a way that I think we should be
at this moment.
This is an authority that expert witnesses said would be
used to restrain abuses in the executive branch. I will give
you quote from a recent hearing, ``Agencies are not permitted
to misread their congressional charge and statutes, and their
interpretation ought to be regarded with special skepticism
when they purport to find sweeping new authorities in old
statutes.'' That was Dr. Phillip Wallick, senior fellow at
American Enterprise Institute (AEI) testified before this
committee on December 18th of last year.
Yet today agencies under President Trump's executive
actions are finding all kinds of new ways to circumvent
congressional oversight. Dr. Wallick further remind this
committee during his testimony after the Loper decision that
many observers hope that these interventions can come from the
executive branch, specifically politically appointees in the
upcoming Trump administration, notably Elon Musk and Vivek
Ramaswamy who lead the recently conceived Department of
Government Efficiency (DOGE) argued in the Wall Street
Journal's, Wall Street Journal that the court's recent ruling
opens the door for the President to nullify thousands of
regulations based on improper interpretations through
nonenforcement and then review and recession.
``It is not at all clear that this is a sound prescription.
Instead the remedy for excessive administrative power is a
revitalization of congressional power not just a different
flavor of administrative power as overseen by a more aggressive
court.'' Dr. Wallick concluded his testimony by emphasizing how
members from both parties should rely on information and
guidance provided by public service professionals at VA and
push bipartisan legislation through Congress. He said if that
seems like pie-in-the-sky idea of how the House operates then
we all need to be asking how to make it work better.
I believe in the good work of this subcommittee and the
role of our committee in legislating and in overseeing the
Department. None of us want unelected bureaucrats running wild,
damaging systems, and compromising benefits for veterans. I
want to work with every member of this subcommittee to ensure
that veterans are at the center of all of our efforts and that
we are truly delivering the benefits that they have earned in a
timely fashion.
Mr. Chairman, I appreciate your comments saying that this
is a nonpartisan place for work, and I could not agree more.
That is why we must do the job of oversight of federal agencies
and programs, stand tall as a co-equal branch of government and
not shrink from our responsibilities, especially when it comes
to the end veteran.
Regarding the hearing today, I look forward to VA providing
more information on the implementation of the Elizabeth Dole
Act and hearing from VA about plans for 2025 and beyond and I
do want to thank you most sincerely, Mr. Chairman, for the time
and I yield back and look forward to the next couple of years
together.
Mr. Van Orden. Thank you, Mr. Pappas. I appreciate several
of your comments. I would, I would like us to focus internally,
sir. I have done nothing over the last two years other than
reminding the Biden Administration that we are a co-equal
branch of government, and I would, I would remind you, sir,
that President Trump has been in office for three weeks and I
think a day. Let us look forward collectively to doing things
great and if we have concerns I think we should address these.
I will now introduce the witness panel. Our first witness
is Mr. Ken Smith, Acting Executive Director of Education
Services, at the Veterans Benefits Administration (VBA). Mr.
Smith is accompanied by Mr. James Ruhlman--I got that right--
Deputy Director of Education Services at the Veterans Benefits
Administration.
I will ask the witnesses to please stand and raise your
right hand. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are
about to provide is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
the truth?
[Witnesses sworn.]
Mr. Van Orden. Thank you. Let the record reflect that the
witnesses have answered in the affirmative. Mr. Smith, you are
now recognized for 5 minutes to deliver your testimony on
behalf of the Department of Veterans Affairs.
STATEMENT OF KEN SMITH
Mr. Smith. Thank you, sir. Chairman Orden, Van Orden,
Ranking Member Pappas, and Members of the Subcommittee, thank
you for the opportunity to discuss the VA's delivery of
education benefits to our veterans and their families.
Accompanying me today is Mr. James Ruhlman, Deputy Director of
Education Service.
I understand and I am read in the concerns this committee
has raised on various issues in this space. One such issue that
came to my attention with your staff's recent visit to our
regional processing office in Muskogee. While there they
observed the processing of a claim related to the Supreme
Court's recent Rudisill decision. I understand that it did not
go as planned.
While the claim was processed, it took too long and
encountered several obstacles. Your staff heard concerns
directly from claims processors noting the very complex
instructions that they as claims processors are expected to
follow. Our team also described how claims go back and forth
several times before being fully completed, adding to the
delays and aging of claims.
We are taking immediate actions to engage claims processors
who are working these claims to gather their feedback.
VBA is evaluating current resources and tools, finetuning
procedures and exploring additional training opportunities, as
well as enforcing accountability throughout the process.
Despite some challenges, I want to highlight that VA's made
some great strides over the last several years to improve
benefit delivery and customer experience. VA's automated
approximately 50 percent of certificates of eligibility for new
applicants, allowing veterans to start their educational
pursuits faster.
Supplemental claims are currently hoovering near 70 percent
automated up from 40 percent in March 2021. We are also working
to modernize our systems. In July 2024, VA took the first
tangible steps to move 87 percent education benefit payments
off of the 50-year-old legacy Common Business-Oriented Language
(COBOL) system. Just this month, VA processed its first non-
Chapter 33 claims on the Digital GI Bill (DGI) platform. We are
on track to complete the migration from the legacy Benefits
Delivery Network (BDN) system by November 2025.
With the recent passage of the Elizabeth Dole Act, VA has
momentum to make necessary improvements to assist veterans in
obtaining full-time employment. Participants in the prior
program overwhelmingly recommended Veterans Technology
Education Courses (VET TEC) to other veterans.
VA proactively--VA's proactive efforts to improve customer
experience are making a difference across the board.
VBA's customer experience Survey Trust Score responses
indicate 87 percent of respondents expressed confidence about
enrolling in schools to use their education benefits up from 72
percent in 2022 and 85.6 percent trust that they will receive
their education benefits up from 75 percent in 2022.
VA also recognizes that strengthening partnerships with
external entities expands the veteran support network. We will
meet regularly with the leadership of the national association
of state approving agencies (SAA) and school certifying
officials. Our collaboration with the SAAs has improved the
risk-based surveys resulting in improved accountability and VA
is currently approving new programs in approximately 5 days.
School certifying officials (SCO) are important partners
serving as the first touchpoint for veterans enrolling in
school. These SCOs overwhelmingly endorse improvements to the
DGI enrollment manager, which replaced the first, the legacy
VA. Once program in March 2023, and has already processed 10
million enrollments.
In calendar year 2025, VA will address multiple high
priorities to include continuing DGI modernization, improving
the Rudisill review for a million potential beneficiaries and
enacting the many education related provision of the Elizabeth
Dole Act. We will also implement recommendations from the
Office of Inspector General and Government Accountability
Office (GAO).
Mr. Chairman, I share this committee's mission of working
for veterans and ensuring that VA effectively delivers the very
benefits that veterans have earned and deserve. I commit to you
that I will work to get it right, remain transparent in our
efforts and to not shy away from the challenges. My team and I
will also put veterans and beneficiaries first.
Mr. Chairman, this concludes my statement. My colleague and
I are prepared to answer any questions you or other members of
the committee may have.
[The Prepared Statement Of Ken Smith Appears In The
Appendix]
Mr. Van Orden. Thank you, Mr. Smith. The written statement
of Mr. Smith will be entered into the hearing record. We are
now going to proceed with the questioning. You are new here,
you two are, so we do 5 minutes, not 5 minutes and 50 second.
Cool? Keep it on track. We can always do a second round of
questioning if you guys are not satisfied with the answers from
the witnesses. Okay? Yes, I am talking to McGarvey over there.
All right. I now recognize the Ranking Member Pappas for 5
minutes to question the witnesses.
Mr. Pappas. Okay. Let us see how I do, sir.
Mr. Van Orden. You will be fine.
Mr. Pappas. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thanks for the
testimony, Mr. Smith, and our office and so many of my
colleagues' offices have been flooded with constituent calls
over the last few days and few weeks. We have literally heard
from thousands of people in my district in New Hampshire who
are concerned about sweeping executive orders from the
administration including those that are impacting VA.
The orders along with unclear guidance have I think shaken
confidence in the ability of, or the understanding that VA is
going to deliver on its promises to our veterans. I have heard
that directly from the veteran community in New Hampshire.
We were recently made aware of a list of positions at VA
that are not eligible for Elon Musk's so-called fork-in-the-
road retirement plan. One of the positions is the VR&E
counselor. You may be aware that I sent a letter to the
secretary asking for this position to be exempt from the hiring
freeze. My question to you is if the position is so mission
critical that these individuals are not eligible for the
retirement offer why are these positions subject to a hiring
freeze?
Mr. Smith. Thank you for the question, sir. There is a
separate executive order that we are operating under that
implement a government wide hiring freeze and, you know, we are
following that order.
Mr. Pappas. Do you expect that VA will request an exemption
from the freeze to hire staff members that can service
veterans' economic opportunity benefits including positions
that are needed to administer VR&E.
Mr. Smith. I am not sure what the secretary will choose to
do. I certainly await his guidance.
Mr. Pappas. Okay. If an exemption were granted and wait
times were not granted and wait times could increase as a
result would the administration reconsider an exemption as soon
as possible to minimize the impact to disabled veterans who are
seeking employment?
Mr. Smith. We absolutely want to minimize impact to the
extent possible and we will work with you and the appropriators
to make sure that we have, that we can fill to our budget
ceiling once we have reached the position where we can begin
hiring again.
Mr. Pappas. To your knowledge have any VR&E connected
positions been rescinded?
Mr. Smith. I do not know, sir.
Mr. Pappas. Okay. What if anything is VA's plan to ensure
that veterans do not experience delays in accessing VA's earned
benefits?
Mr. Smith. Speaking for the education delivery of benefits,
our positions, our claims processing positions are also
exempted as claims processors. We continue to execute against
the mission with the staffing that we have, and our high rate
of automation is supporting that as well allowing us to deliver
those critical benefits.
Mr. Pappas. I want to get to Rudisill. You brought it up in
your testimony, a population of over a million veterans and
their dependents who are potentially impacted by the decision
which established that eligible veterans and their dependents
can access up to 48 months of education benefits if they served
during two periods, typically before and after 9/11. How is the
president's hiring freeze impacting VA's ability to begin
reviewing these records?
Mr. Smith. We are, we are reviewing all of the Rudisill
claims with existing staff. I would say that we have the staff
onboard to conduct this review. Right now we are in the midst
of our spring hiring surge, so we are working to ensure that we
are delivering benefits for veterans and family members who are
in school and then we will shift to Rudisill. We prioritize
those claims so that we are making decisions for those that are
in school and low on remaining entitlement so that they can
continue their educational pursuits.
Mr. Pappas. With respect to the review in a briefing,
January 7th, it was reported that it would take approximately
22 months to complete the review because existing examiners at
regional processing offices have the ability to conduct this
work--only have the ability to conduct the work during nonpeak
enrollment periods.
It seems that waiting to hear about eligibility for 22
months is not centering on veterans and putting them first. Is
there any way that that timeframe can be expedited? What would
you need to get that review done in a much more timely fashion?
Mr. Smith. As I said we are, we, our current method is to
prioritize those claims that where the veteran or family member
is in school or low on entitlement. That is I think the best we
can offer at the moment. I----
Mr. Pappas. Would additional staffing help you conduct
those that review in a timelier fashion, less than 22 months?
Mr. Smith. These are very complex determinations. I am not
certain that additional staffing at this point would help.
Mr. Pappas. Okay. My time is up. I yield back.
Mr. Van Orden. Thank you, Ranking Member Pappas. I now
recognize Mr. Barrett from the great state of Michigan, which
is directly across from Lake Wisconsin.
Mr. Barrett. Is that anywhere near the Gulf of America, Mr.
Chairman?
Mr. Van Orden. Very close, sir.
Mr. Barrett. Okay.
Mr. Van Orden. I am glad someone got that.
Mr. Barrett. Well thank you. Mr. Smith, I know that there
has been a lot of discussion about these risk-based surveys
that are done and what constraint that has had, the downstream
effect of that on veterans being able to access education that
really fits their needs and what they are seeking. Can you give
us an update as to the status of these risk-based surveys and
whether they are being used in a strategic way to
disincentivize education institutions from participating in the
G.I. Bill and making that accessible to veterans?
Mr. Smith. Thank you for the questions, sir. I will give a
short answer and then hand it off to Mr. Ruhlman, who is much
more an expert on risk-based surveys. I will say that we do not
target any specific schools. We use a data-driven approach to
determine who ought to be reviewed under these surveys and
ensure that veterans are receiving the training and not defraud
out other benefits. Mr. Ruhlman?
Mr. Ruhlman. The purpose of the risk-based surveys is to
provide health checks and fix any problems before veterans
become at risk and end up being impacted by a school closures
and not being delivered with the quality of education that they
deserve and expect.
We do work closely with our SAA partners to revised that
model. We have actually done it for three years in a row and we
are currently in discussions with the state approving agencies
at their mid-winter conference in Crystal City, which is going
on this week.
We are going to continue to revise those models. We have
seen decreases year after year as we have revised that model
from about 1,300 in Fiscal Year 2023, about 250 in Fiscal Year
2024, and less than 200 this year and we will continue to do
that. It is not the goal of either VA or the state approving
agencies that are doing the risk-based surveys to drive schools
out of the market or to decrease the number of opportunities
available. We remain committed to working with our partners to
make sure that we are looking at the right schools and not
overburdening other schools that are in good shape.
Mr. Barrett. Is it also true that someone not involved with
the VA, not a part of your organization or anything else can
still prompt a complaint that would trigger this review that
you have described, the risk-based survey that you have
described?
Mr. Ruhlman. Complaints can drive the selection of a school
for a risk-based survey. We actually have a minimum of two
complaints that are needed in order to possibly do that and
that is actually done also in combination with a number of
other factors such as rapid growth in the student population
enrolled in a program, the payments per student 85/15
violations, 90/10 violations, any other serious actions or
scrutiny by state or federal agencies.
We do negotiate the selection of those schools with the
state approving agencies. we do not expect a school to be
selected solely because of the single or even two anonymous
complaints. That was something that was at least partially
responsible for the 1,300 number in Fiscal Year 2023.
That is one of the things that we have really focused on
along with no longer looking at the, at the transfer or
retention or persistence rates which tended to target community
colleges and two-year feeder schools for the four-years.
Mr. Barrett. Okay. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
Mr. Van Orden. Thank you, Mr. Barrett. The chair now
recognizes Morgan McGarvey from the great state of Kentucky.
Mr. McGarvey. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Good to be back here
this Congress with you all. Thank you all for being here today.
Look, I think one of the things that makes this committee a fun
committee to serve on is that we all agree. We all agree that
we want to get our veterans, the brave men and women who are
willing to put on a uniform and sacrifice everything for us,
the benefits they have earned, and they were promised.
I am glad we are having this hearing because we need to
focus on how to better serve our veterans. I also want to make
sure that we are putting all the focus on the right place,
which is getting these veterans their services and how do we
actually do that because that is what we want to have happen.
Come back with me to Louisville, Kentucky. I will take you in
the VA. I will take you in Veterans of Foreign Wars (VFW) 1170.
I will take you anywhere. You are going to hear some similar
things.
One, a lot of veterans do appreciate when the VA works for
them and there are things at the VA that are working for them.
Then they are going to tell you about the things that the VA
that are not working for them. We are here today talking about
education benefits on this committee, and I think you would
hear a lot of things, speed, that they are not getting these
benefits quickly enough. You are going to probably hear
complaints about confusing jargon, confusing things that happen
like how do we, how do we jump through these hoops? How do we
get these benefits we were supposed to have earned? Of course,
that ease of access kind of goes in with the confusing jargon.
How are we getting veterans what they need?
When we talk about the VA and the bureaucracy at the VA, I
think we can admit we all want there to be efficiency in the
VA, we want these services to be timely delivered, but I do not
want to just scapegoat every person who works at the VA,
because we have a lot of really talented public servants who
are at the VA getting our veterans the care and the things they
need.
When you look at what is happening, even though we are only
three weeks into the Trump Administration, when we look at the
executive orders on the hiring freezes, that applies to
everybody even, we have heard from doctors who have had a
hiring freeze and I know we are not talking about health care
in VA today, but that certainly plays into what we are talking
about. They are talking about drastically altering some of
these policies in an effort to starve out some of our dedicated
public servants and cut the workforce at the VA.
I think we are here with the right intention, but I want to
make sure we are here with the right focus and when you look at
congress, it is, the real complaint here is we need to improve
the policies and procedures in VA, let us do it. Let us work
together to make those changes. I am totally for it.
If we are concerned that railing against the VA is just
pretext to begin a DOGE death spiral of the VA, where you gut
the workforce in name of efficiency leading to slower benefit
delivery and more backlog for our vets, then let us remember
who we are here to serve.
I think about these changes, one you mentioned something I
want to get into, Mr. Smith, you said that additional staffing
would not necessarily help. You know, one thing I hear from
veterans is even if we go in the name of, look, we use
technology in all of our daily lives. I hear from a lot of
veterans that at the end of the day they want a person at the
other end of the line eventually. What would help? You said
staffing will not help. What will help us clear this backlog
and get veterans the benefits they need and deserve?
Mr. Smith. Thank you for the question. I certainly
appreciate your comments. We are very focused in improving our
Trust Score including all of the elements that you just
mentioned as well as ensure that veterans feel valued. That is
a key element of our Trust Score.
In terms of what would, I am sorry, what will help, I would
say we need better procedures, we need better job aids. We
should not have to require our claims processors to do many
multiple tasks without, you know, some supporting like
templates. And I think we can look at technology as an enabler
as well.
We are not there right now. We need to take a look at, you
know, things within our control in terms of those policies,
procedures, job aids, and tools, issue some reinforcement to
our folks who are one month or six weeks into processing these
Rudisill claims on a very steep learning curve and then
reassess and go forward.
Mr. McGarvey. Thanks. We are short on time and so I just
want to say I appreciate that. I do want to make sure that we
are getting our veterans what they need. If some of that is
technology that is fantastic. We need efficiency. We need
better off.
We also, we need to recognize what is going on right now.
There are 1.7 million veterans who have been come eligible for
additional G.I. benefits. The VBA is already using overtime and
seasonal capacity so thanks so much and we will keep on this.
Mr. Van Orden. Mr. McGarvey, if you would like we will do a
second round of questions. I understand Mr. Pappas would like
to do that already. Thank you very much. The gentleman yields
back. The chair now recognizes our newest member from the
Northern Mariana Islands, Ms. King-Hinds for 5 minutes.
Ms. King-Hinds. Thank you, Mr. Chairman for this
opportunity to learn a little bit more about Veteran Education
Services. I come from the Northern Mariana Islands and our
issue with the regards to veterans issue is just access. I am
curious to just to see what the program currently does to
ensure that equitable access for veterans living in remote
areas like the Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands
(CNMI) with regards to the digital G.I. Bill platform is,
ensures basically that our veterans have the same access.
Mr. Smith. Yes, thank you for the question. All U.S.
service members establish eligibility to education benefits
based on the merits of their service. I would like to ask
Ruhlman to talk just a little bit about getting schools
approved over, you know, in remote areas.
Mr. Ruhlman. Sure. Prior to this hearing I actually did
look to see how many schools are approved in the Commonwealth
of the Northern Mariana's. There is one college on Saipan and
that is it. To the extent that you have other training
providers that are interested in seeking G.I. Bill approval we
can work with you to get them G.I. Bill approved in order to
have more opportunities in the Northern Marianas for veterans
who do live there, and we would love to work with you on that.
We also do have a number of programs which are online which
could be accessed and those of course can be accessed worldwide
but really we need to have more schools offering programs
whether that is technical schools, degree granting programs,
employers who have on the job training (OJT) programs, that is
one of the ways that probably you could increase the number
would be to find some employers whether that is electricians,
plumbers, really any of the trades, skilled trades that have
OJT programs could be approved in the Northern Marianas as well
to allow people to use their benefits and to gain skills which
will help them get better paying jobs.
Ms. King-Hinds. All right. Thank you. It was raised that a
lot of times, right, our vets really would like to be able to
have access to a real-life person to be able to work through
some of these applications. In remote areas like the CNMI or
rural areas in particular, right, access to the internet is a
challenge.
What have you done with regards to just outreach to these
communities to ensure, right, we are talking about digitizing a
platform, but in remote communities like ours sometimes access
to digital platforms is a challenge and so what outreach work
has been done to ensure that remote and rural communities just
have a fighting chance basically at being able to avail some of
these services?
Mr. Smith. Mr. Ruhlman, could answer the question? I would
like ask Mr. Ruhlman to answer that question.
Mr. Ruhlman. Most of our outreach is done using a number of
different approaches. The bulk of it is through email,
websites, and it is electronic. I am sure we would have people
who would love to do additional outreach in person but that
would require additional travel funding.
I am not sure what else we can do in the short run, but I
would love to have further discussions about what we could do
to provide better service to individuals in the, in the
Commonwealth of the Northern Marianas as well as other more
remote places within the United States because we do want to
reach those individuals as well.
Ms. King-Hinds. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield my time.
Mr. Van Orden. The gentlelady yields back. The chair now
recognizes Mrs. Ramirez, my dear friend from the great state of
Illinois.
Ms. Ramirez. Thank you, Chairman. It is good to have
midwestern representation in committee. I want to thank the
Ranking Member also for holding today's hearing and the
witnesses for joining us today.
By the title of this hearing, I would like to believe we
are all in agreement that education is an important tool to
lift up our veterans and provide them with opportunities. While
I know that my colleagues across the aisle have turned their
backs on commitment to honor inclusion because of the current
administration's attacks on diversity, on equity, and inclusion
programs, I do have some news for them. On turning their backs
on a commitment to diversity is turning their backs on
veterans.
Veterans are diverse and I am proud to represent 20,727
diverse veterans of Illinois 3rd Congression District. Let us
be clear, now when we are talking about veterans, we are
talking about women, we are talking about people of color, we
are talking about first generation veterans, we are talking
about low-income veterans, we are talking about Lesbian, Gay,
Bisexual, Transgender, Queer, Intersex, Asexual Plus (LGBTQIA+)
veterans and deported veterans. They are all veterans. Each
veteran is to be celebrated in their diversity and entitled to
full access to their benefits that they have earned, and we
promised them.
That is why I take such a responsibility to provide careful
oversight of our education services seriously. It is our job.
We cannot let allow the times to dismantle veterans services or
deny the unique needs of diverse veterans in the name of
efficiency derail us from our duty. In fact if anything it
should make us fight even harder to fund the progress we have
made in serving veterans more effectively. With that I want to
turn to some questions.
The G.I. Bill comparison tool currently allows veterans to
search for schools that have a particular population focus such
as a women college for example, Alaska Native serving
institutions, Hispanic serving institutions, we call them HSIs
or historically Black colleges and universities, the HBCUs. Mr.
Smith, will the VA remove this information as a search feature
for veterans in order to comply with Trump's administration's
executive orders ending diversity, equity, and inclusion
programming?
Mr. Smith. Thank you for the question, ma'am. One week on
the job in and I have not gotten any instructions to that, to
that end. I would be happy to bring something back to you.
Ms. Ramirez. Mr. Smith, I would appreciate that. I
certainly want to make sure that I know what search information
is available and not available as veterans are looking at
schools so we will follow up with you. Let me send you, let me
ask you another follow-up question as you are searching. If the
VA would remove the ability to search institutions by diversity
characteristics, how would interfering with, how would that
actually interfere with a veterans freedom to choose a school
of their liking? Do you want, let me, do you want me to repeat
it?
Mr. Smith. Please.
Ms. Ramirez. Yes. I have asked you if the VA is looking at
removing this information, the search feature that allows
people to look at a school, you know, based on is it a woman's
colleges, is it an Alaska Native serving institution, is it an
HSI or HBCU, and my question to was, is the VA going to remove
the search feature and my follow-up question to you, because
you are going to get me that information is if the VA removes
the ability to search institutions by diversity characteristics
how will this interfere with a veterans freedom to choose a
school of their liking?
Mr. Smith. I believe that would force them to use another
search method for identifying schools of their choice. That is
my suggestion.
Ms. Ramirez. What search method would they be using?
Google, like what?
Mr. Smith. That would be my guess.
Ms. Ramirez. Well they would have to Googling when they
already were able to do that through the system that they use
but now we are saying we do not want you to have that choice,
so we are going to have you have to go look at other formats.
In some ways it would impact their ability and accessibility to
be able to look through the system they already have in place.
Correct?
Mr. Smith. It would be a two-step process.
Ms. Ramirez. Making it harder for veterans. All right. Well
let me, let me follow up. This past week my district office has
been taking calls from concerned constituents who are unclear
about how the Trump's administration executive orders on
funding and programs may impact the processing of their G.I.
claims and their G.I. benefits.
Let me ask you one last question, Mr. Smith. Since these
executive orders have been announced have veterans reached out
concerned about the impact of the changes under education
services and benefits?
Mr. Smith. I am unaware of any call traffic specifically
tagged to the executive orders but I could certainly research
that.
Ms. Ramirez. Do you have more calls this last week than you
had before?
Mr. Smith. I am unsure what our call volumes are right now.
Ms. Ramirez. Can you check on that for me? Thank you.
Mr. Smith. Certainly.
Ms. Ramirez. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Van Orden. The gentlelady yields back. Interestingly
enough we have a senior enlisted guy here, we have got a
warrant officer, and a commissioned officer, right? Correct?
Army Intel? That is an oxymoron right there, I will tell you to
be honest with you.
I would like to just publicly state that from my
perspective I do not recall a single instance where we cared
about the color of someone's skin, their gender, their
religion, or what they do in the privacy of their own home.
I think we all need to get back to that position and I can
affirmatively speak with confidence from the Trump
administration from their perspective that they do not care
about the color of your skin, your gender, your religion, or
what you do in the privacy of your home, an that we will be
approaching, they will be approaching as will this subcommittee
from an absolutely, 100 percent neutral perspective and if
anyone chooses to not do that then they are no longer welcome
on this subcommittee, and that is how we are doing our
business. That is cut and dry. That is the formal policy, and
Mr. Pappas, I have not even discussed this, but we are not
doing this correct?
Mr. Pappas. Doing what?
Mr. Van Orden. We are not going to, we are not going to
look at people through these individual lenses?
Mr. Pappas. Well I would be happy to have a conversation
about it.
Mr. Van Orden. Okay.
Mr. Pappas. What the VA needs to do to reach underserved
veterans----
Mr. Van Orden. Yes, 100----
Mr. Pappas [continuing]. so I think there is a----
Mr. Van Orden.--percent.
Mr. Pappas [continuing]. legitimate concern about
Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI) going away and us not
being able to seek out those veterans that deserve and need
assistance. I think that is the concern that Mrs. Ramirez was
expressing, and I support her questions.
Mr. Van Orden. Yes. I do not get me wrong, my, I have
tremendous amount of respect for you, ma'am. I just want to
tell you that our prospective as veterans from the entire
stratified levels of the military is we just do not see things
that way and we served, Tom, how long have you, how long were
in?
Mr. Barrett. Twenty-two years, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Van Orden. I was 26, how about you, Mr. Hamadeh?
Mr. Hamadeh. Eighteen.
Mr. Van Orden. Okay. We have got 60 years of military
experience here. I am just saying that we do not see it that
way. If there is anything we can potentially do better to reach
all of our veterans, if you had that flag on your shoulder I am
with you. Just to be clear so we are on the same sheet. Very
well.
The chair now recognizes Mr. Ciscomani from the great state
of Arizona for 5 minutes.
Mr. Ciscomani. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. You know, one of
the major focuses that I have, that I have had since getting
here to Congress and being on this, on this committee, is the
transition from active-duty service into veteran, into civilian
life and also what that means for them in terms of job
opportunities.
I have an advisory council that I formed two years ago
where I have 20 veterans in my district and they range from
enlisted and being in for four years, all the way up to retired
generals of 35-plus years of service. It helps me get a real
sense of what the transition looks like and it looks
differently for every person out there. This is one of the main
things that I hear in our community that the different
opportunities that veterans can have.
With my bill, the Senator Elizabeth Dole 21st Century
Veterans Health Care and Benefits Improvement Act, that you
mentioned just a little bit ago now being law, I look forward
to the many education opportunities for veterans that will be
created as a result of this enactment, from commercial drivers
licenses to careers in computer science, this bill puts
veterans and their loved ones first by extending popular
programs like the VET TEC, eliminating red tape for more
opportunities in education for veterans and expanding the Fry
Scholarship benefits for surviving spouses and those who
remarry as well.
I look forward to continuing to hear more from you all on
how the VA is putting our veterans first through their
educational journey. In this particular topic, Mr. Smith, as
you know VET TEC is an important higher education program that
has put thousands of veterans into high paying jobs across the
country, so I look forward to seeing this continued. What does
the VA plan to, when--I am sorry. When does the VA begin to
enroll veterans in this program again?
Mr. Smith. Thank you for the question, sir. We are still
working on an implementation plan. I do not have a date yet,
but I would be happy to bring that back to you and Congress
once we have it?
Mr. Ciscomani. Is there a sense of urgency on this? This is
an important aspect of the overall bill, you know, this has
been a pilot program that was highly successful, so I am hoping
that we have a sense of priority and urgency on this one.
Mr. Smith. Yes, sir.
Mr. Ciscomani. On the, a provision in the legislation
states that 4,000 student can be enrolled annually. Do you
believe this number will be reached, will be reached this year?
If you expect Congress will need to increase that number in the
future?
Mr. Smith. Again I think I need to get some understanding
of what the implementation timeline looks like. We are looking
carefully at improving the payment processing systems and our
ability to manage this through our digital G.I. Bill platform
to ensure that we have payment integrity and are reaching the
right veterans, so once we get all of that lined out within an
implementation timeline I would be happy to talk to you more.
Mr. Ciscomani. I am very interested in talking about that
specific timeline. The federal government is not know for its
expediency, so I think we need to really make sure that this is
moving quickly and swiftly.
We have, it is 4,000 a year. In my district alone we have
almost 80,000 veterans. That is my district alone, one of 435
in the Nation.
That we, in my mind there is, you know, ever reason to
reach the 4,000 and hoping that you come back and request for
more because this is a highly successful program that we need
to make sure that that happens. What about other aspects of the
bill like the Fry Scholarship, is, how is that going and where
are we on that?
Mr. Smith. Yes, sir. The extension of delimiting dates for
Fry Scholars, that is already completed because that was
something that we could handle in just regulations. We are
moving forward with that.
Mr. Ciscomani. I will ask the same follow-up question. What
are the, what is the timeline on this? What are you, what are
you thinking?
Mr. Smith. I will ask Mr. Ruhlman to give me some help with
that. I believe it is already done.
Mr. Ruhlman. Yes. There actually two Fry provisions, the
first one, Section 201, which as to do with a temporary
expansion of Fry Scholarship benefits and that is for terms
that start on August 1st, 2025. We do expect right now to be
receiving applications as of April 1st for that, so it should
be before anyone has the chance to enroll and use those
benefits.
For Section 202, which has to do with the delimiting date
and remarriage. We can actually handle that procedurally
because it is not something where it is determined by the
computer system. That one actually was implemented on January
30th.
Mr. Ciscomani. Basically we are ready to roll on this,
right? We, you know,----
Mr. Ruhlman. Yes.
Mr. Ciscomani. We are now ensured that providers and
students are able to participate in these programs, and
specifically the Fry Scholarship that is ready to go?
Mr. Ruhlman. For the delimiting date and remarriage, yes.
Mr. Ciscomani. Okay. Well I am out of time but my, I would
like to just get a sense of the timeline for the VET TEC please
as specific as you can and with specific metrics on the goals
of reaching the participants on there and also on the remaining
parts of the Fry Scholarship. Thank you. Chairman----
Mr. Van Orden. The gentleman----
Mr. Ciscomani. I yield back.
Mr. Van Orden. The gentleman yields back. The chair now
recognizes Mr. Hamadeh for 5 minutes. Welcome aboard, sir.
Mr. Hamadeh. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Your previous
comments are exactly spot on, the only thing we care about is
the American flag on our right shoulders
Mr. Van Orden. Right.
Mr. Hamadeh. Right. As an Army veteran myself and a member
of this committee, I am deeply troubled by the ongoing failures
of the VA education service bureaucracy to efficiently deliver
on the commitments we owe to those who have served.
The post 911 G.I. Bill was meant to expand opportunity but
today bureaucratic failures at the VA are delaying benefits,
increasing costs, and making it harder for veterans to access
the education they have earned.
The botched digital G. I. Bill roll out is a prime example.
What was supposed to streamline benefits ballooned from $470
million to nearly $1 billion. I mean that is embarrassing in
the private sector. That should be embarrassing in the
government as well. It remains plagued by delays.
Meaningless burden like excessive risked based surveys are
forcing legitimate schools to drop G.I. Bill eligibility and
the disastrous Rudisill expansion could cost taxpayers $10
billion with VA bureaucracy unilaterally adding to the federal
deficit. We need accountability, not excuses. Now the VA must
work for the veteran, not against them. Those who served our
nation deserve the best.
Now Mr. Smith, the VA has set a November 2025 to final
complete transitioning VA education benefits to a long delayed
digital G.I. Bill platform. This timeline has already slipped
before so what is VA doing to ensure that the digital G.I. Bill
program stays on track for this release?
Mr. Smith. Thank you for the question, sir. Let me say
first you have my commitment to be accountable and to ensure
that we are doing all we can to right by veterans, this
committee and get it right for those that have earned the
benefits.
We are on track for November 2025 to be off the BDN or the
benefits delivery network COBOL based system. We have had a
successful transition this month with our first non-Chapter 33
claims processing. We will move Chapter 35 dependents education
assistance next month and we are on track still with that
overall deployment in by November.
Mr. Hamadeh. Well it has been 55 days since Chairman Bost
sent a letter demanding answers regarding the failed
implementation of the Digital G.I. Bill platform. I am just
curious why the committee has not received a response?
Mr. Smith. I will have to get back to you, sir. I----
Mr. Hamadeh. Have you seen the letter?
Mr. Smith. No, sir, I----
Mr. Hamadeh. This was to the previous secretary. I am just
wondering if there was any transition period, you know, from
when you came in to see that letter?
Mr. Smith. I have not yet in the first week on the job. I
will certainly go back and look for that.
Mr. Hamadeh. All right. Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
Mr. Van Orden. Thank you. The chair now recognizes
themselves in the third party for 5 minutes. It just sounds so
silly, does not it? Mr. Smith, where is your predecessor?
Mr. Smith. Sir, Senior Executive Service is designed as a
flexible----
Mr. Van Orden. Just tell me where he is at?
Mr. Smith. He has been reassigned to another business line.
Mr. Van Orden. Why would you suppose that is, Mr. Smith?
The VA moves at its own speed. I ask unanimous consent that
this from April 1st, 2023, this press release from the
Department of Veterans Affairs is entered into the record.
Without objection, so ordered. Okay.
Budget cut proposals would hurt veterans. This is from
April 21st. This is what you said that our budget cuts were
going to threaten medical care for veterans. It did not happen.
Undermine access to telehealth, as a matter of fact we expanded
it. That did not happen. Worsen wait times for benefits, that
did not happen. Prevent construction on health care facilities
and veterans needs, that did not happen. Failed to honor the
memory of all veterans, we actually increased the budget by $81
million for our cemeteries overseas. Cut housing for veterans,
no. Increase food insecurity for veterans, no. Deprive veterans
of mental health, substance abuse, and other health services,
no. Eliminate job training and support homeless veterans, no.
Okay.
This is still on your website. Okay. Enough of this trash.
When we are talking, look, the Trump administration has been in
office for three weeks and one day. That is still on your
website, and it is a pack of political lies. Enough. I am sick
of this garbage, man.
In 2020, there were 657,928 veterans using education
services. In 2024, there is over 900,000. Okay. That is a 39.7
percent increase in participants and yet you have an 81.4
percent increase in your employees that are servicing this
stuff with a 5 percent increase in funding. The math is not
mathing, sir. You have bloated your bureaucracy and actually
shrunk the ability of veterans to get education benefits. You
have done that.
I know you have been in office for a week and there is a
reason your predecessor is not longer sitting there because of
rampant failure. It is just bad. You said you are taking
immediate action to correct these things What is a specific
example of an immediate action that you have taken, Mr. Smith,
to correct these deficiencies, just one?
Mr. Smith. Sir, I am very interested in improving----
Mr. Van Orden. All right. Stop. Let us, no, you are, no.
That is not it. No. I, maybe you are not catching on. We are
not going to do this any longer. I will be in office for at
least a year and a half or whatever it is left, and I do not
care. I honest to God do not care if I am sitting in this chair
two years from now. I do care if you are sitting in that chair
two minutes from now. You have mentioned accountability four
times in your oral testimony. What does accountability mean to
you?
Mr. Smith. Sir, we need to improve our ability to manage
risk, the schedule scope and cost.
Mr. Van Orden. Are you aware of a single bureaucrat in the
VA being fired for poor performance, one, are you aware of one?
Mr. Smith. There are individuals that are terminated, sir.
I cannot begin to tell you the reason.
Mr. Van Orden. Yes. How many guys have been laid or gals
who have been laid off for abject failure? Yes.
Mr. Smith. I would have to get some information from our HR
providers.
Mr. Van Orden. Well please do. As a Member of Congress it
is not my job to fire people in the executive branch. That is
just not my function. I am asking you if you are aware of
people that have been terminated for poor performance, and that
is just----
Mr. Smith. Yes.
Mr. Van Orden. That is not my job. Okay. Good. I would like
to correct, Mr. Hamadeh. It did not blow up from $460 million
to $960 million. It actually started, the bid that you guys put
in was $25 million. $25 million when you could have just used
the Pell Grant process to do the electronic G.I. Bill, but you
put in a bid for $25 million that is now $960 million, and I
still do not think it is going to be done in time. My time has
expired. I do not know, Mr. Pappas would like to do a second-
round question, so the chair now recognizes Mr. Pappas for 5
minutes.
Mr. Pappas. Thank you. I want to ask about implementation
of a provision that was included in the Dole Act. I helped
introduce a bipartisan bill. It is the Veteran Improvement
Commercial Driver's License Act. This was included in Dole Act.
It is based on the notion that we should be cutting red tape to
ease veterans transition into the civilian workforce and help
them find long term secure employment.
I am wondering if VA has established the criteria and
reporting requirements for commercial driver training programs
that are seeking quicker approvals to open a new location and
how VA will track Commercial Driver's License (CDL) schools
performance? If you can fill in some detail there, that would
be helpful?
Mr. Smith. Yes. I can tell you that we are still working to
implement that, and it is on track for March 2025, and I would
like Mr. Ruhlman to give some more details.
Mr. Ruhlman. Yes, we are working with our state approving
agency partners in order to develop everything that we do need
to implement that program, and we are working to develop some
measurable requirements for really all of these provisions
especially VET TEC because of what you quoted was actually
specifically almost verbatim from a GAO report and that is
something that we are trying to meet those requirements for the
various provisions of the Dole Act.
Mr. Pappas. Okay. Because this is job training, how will VA
keep track of employment outcomes, and will VA take steps to
hold CDL schools that have low outcomes accountable in some
way?
Mr. Ruhlman. Yes, we are focusing certainly on veteran
outcomes. That is something that we have been working on over
the past few years to get a better gauge of not only graduation
but employment, income, and seeing really how long they are in
the job as well. That is certainly something that we want to do
with trucking programs as well.
I know as far as actions to be taken if a threshold is not
met, the authority to suspend or withdraw approval is generally
held by our state approving agency partners which is why we
would want to include them in the conversation but I think that
we all have broad agreement that we only want to send veterans
to schools that have good positive outcomes for veterans and we
will continue to work with them as we roll this out have all
the policies in place by March 30th, and then move out in the
360 cadence as required by statute after that.
Mr. Pappas. Okay. I really appreciate those comments. Thank
you very much. Mr. Smith, if I could turn back to you.
Committee staff traveled to Muskogee recently. As you know
VA employee 1,500 individuals there that receive calls for
education service. Wondering if you can build up on your
testimony and give us the current performance of that site. How
are we doing?
Mr. Smith. Yes, sir. I can tell you that they are working
diligently to process all of their fall enrollments. I think
that their performance is really solid given the fact that they
are working through a high number of Rudisill inspired claims.
Mr. Pappas. Is everyone onsite and working in person or are
some of these people remote?
Mr. Smith. They are not remote, but they are still, they
have until the 28th of April to return to the office.
Mr. Pappas. Can you give us some more information because
we have heard these concerns not just with this facility but
with other VA facilities, just about the status of workspace.
Is there enough workspace for 1,500 people to be in the office
in person?
Mr. Smith. I am not aware of the details in Muskogee, but I
could certainly find that out for you?
Mr. Pappas. Yes, we would like some more detail on that
because if VA's requiring all individuals at this office to be
in person and that could potentially result in a loss of
productivity if we do not have adequate space for these folks
or greater expense to be able to build out space. I am just
wondering if VA would reconsider the decision for this
particular facility, which seems to be operating at a high
level of productivity that has made significant strides in
answering calls and serving veterans?
Mr. Smith. Understood, sir. I am certainly sure that the
Acting Undersecretary and Secretary will consider that.
Mr. Pappas. Well I appreciate that. I think as we move
forward we do need to make sure that those who are experts in
this work, who are front-line workers who talk to veterans day
in, and day out have a voice in the process and that is one
thing that I will continue to try to bring out through these
hearings because I think too often we do not see those people.
That can give us important feedback about how to improve
processes and again how to reach that end veteran who we owe a
great debt to. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.
Mr. Van Orden. The gentleman yields back. Mr. Barrett, the
chair now recognizes you for 5 minutes.
Mr. Barrett. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Smith, Mr.
Ruhlman, I listened to a lot of your testimony today. I brought
this up in my meeting yesterday. I have been a Member of
Congress now I think 38 days so there is a lot that I am
absorbing and learning about, but I can tell you that one
consistent denominator of all of this is that we have these
systems, these Information Technology (IT) systems that are
intended to be implemented that go exponentially overbudget,
fail to deliver, veterans suffer as a result, the taxpayers do
not get the value for the money that they have sent here. We
sit as a panel on a committee, ask questions. We do not get
specific answers and then the process, rinse and repeat every
two years and the feeling is that the institutional members of
the VA wait us out.
There is a two term, you know the clock is running. The
hourglass is going through, wait two more years, new faces will
be up here, new people will be there. They will ask you the
same questions and the process will repeat.
I am the chairman of the technology modernization
subcommittee. We have been looking at this electronic health
record debacle that we have been facing. Now this digital G.I.
Bill, these consistent problems with implementation of large-
scale IT projects. What can you tell us to restore, number 1,
that confidence and trust?
I mean I was looking at your biography and, you know, I am
an Army grunt that got elected to Congress. I have been here 38
days. I am not an expert in human capital utilization and
financial stewardship as you are, so help me understand how it
is that the common denominator of all of this is that we are
always overbudget, under delivering, and as a result of that we
have less to invest in the services that veterans have earned
because we are spending money on these projects that fail to
deliver.
Mr. Smith. Yes, sir. I appreciate your comments. I agree
with you that that is a lot of money. There is no doubt about
that. We are--I think generally we need to be accountable to
delivering these IT systems. We need to make sure----
Mr. Barrett. I would say specifically, not generally.
Mr. Smith. Yes. We need to make sure that we are
identifying risk early, that we are setting scope, budget, and
deliverable schedules that match the capability of the provider
and that we hold them accountable as well to achieve those
objectives?
Mr. Barrett. Why does not that happen? Like it cannot just
be that we should do these things. We do not live in Should
Land. We live in Real World and that has not happened and it
does not happen. It continues to not happen.
You know, as they say the definition of insanity is doing
the same thing over again and expecting a different result. I
feel like we are there, and we have done that, and we expect a
different result, and we expect accountability, and you promise
accountability but then we never actually see that in action.
Did we follow, for example, the GAO's advice about how to
implement these projects? I know they have done a lot of work
around large-scale IT projects, and it feel like VA continues
to disregard their recommendations and advice. Was that
followed in this, in this instance?
Mr. Smith. I am not certain, sir, whether they followed
those provisions. I have not had a chance to review all of
that. I can tell you that the Inspector General (IG) did an
audit of our deployment of DGIB and found that we needed to
make some improvements in creating an integrated master
schedule, communicating better with the vendor, and ensuring
that we are identifying early and often areas that could cause
critical failures. I do not believe that happened before, but
that is my commitment to you that that is where I am going.
Mr. Barrett. What actionable steps are we going to be able
to have, so for example, when you come to my subcommittee down
the road, what actionable steps are we going to have by then to
ensure that we have moved the ball forward in this regard, that
we are actually going to stick the landing and get this thing
done in the timeline that was promised, that we are going to,
you know, make a turnaround and get this done in a way that we
will actual deliver results for veterans?
Mr. Smith. We are working right now to address the findings
or the recommendations of IG, but that is not enough. I want to
really underscore the need to ensure that the culture of the
individuals that are working on this project understand this
and understand the expectation that we should be underbudget,
not overbudget.
Mr. Barrett. Would you say that you have the capacity to
dismiss people who do not share that shared value with you?
Mr. Smith. Yes, sir.
Mr. Barrett. You do not need any further authority from
Congress or the executive in order to do that?
Mr. Smith. No, sir.
Mr. Barrett. Okay. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
Mr. Van Orden. The gentleman yields back. I just want to,
we did have this hearing yesterday with Mr. Barrett, and do you
now have a schedule for the digital G.I. Bill, do you have a
schedule, like boom, we are doing it on this day?
Mr. Smith. My understanding is that yes, we have developed
an integrated master schedule.
Mr. Van Orden. Do we have the integrated master schedule?
Anybody? You got it? Do you have one? No. Okay. If you have one
it would be great if you shared it with us because we have to
fund that thing. If we do not have it, and you did, and we have
been asking for a year or so for this, that is a problem. Now,
Mr. Smith, I understand you have been in this job for a week.
Believe it or not you are getting some grace from this
committee and that stops after this committee hearing. The
Veterans Affairs Administration is responsible for blowing
through billions of dollars to say that, to that the VA.
Administration spends money like a drunken sailor is not
accurate, because when drunken sailor runs out of money he goes
back to the ship. We are not the ship any more, pal. I hope
that is really clear with everybody here. I believe that we
have found common ground, Mr. Pappas. We are going to approach
the executive branch, and I think it would be, it would make
more sense if people returned to their previous disposition
prior to COVID. If we have folks that were working remotely at
this call center, it is an old grocery store, if they were not
physically located in that building then I do not know how if
they returned to work that that would be beneficial. They are,
you said 500, like 500 desks short and IT equipment? We will
take that for action because that just does not make sense to
me. I think it is pretty clear. I mean we are now into the
Trump administration, and I speak to you the same way I did
with people under the Biden administration, and I just do not
care what political party you are affiliated with. I do not
care. This make sense, it appears to make sense and so we will
take that for action, sir. Yes. Okay.
Mr. Pappas, do you have any closing comments?
Mr. Pappas. Just----
Mr. Van Orden. Oh, sorry wait. The chair now recognizes the
ranking member for any closing----
Mr. Pappas. Thank you.
Mr. Van Orden.--comments he may or may not have.
Mr. Pappas. Thank you to our witnesses and look I have
served on this committee for six years. This is my fourth term
now. I have served during presidents, administrations of both
parties and I think the commitment has to be the same to
provide the oversight that Congress is required to do. At the
end of the day I know that everyone around this table shares
the same commitment to our nation's veterans. We may come at it
from different perspectives from time to time, but I really
join you in trying to seek that common ground and trying to
seek better outcomes for veterans. At the end of the day that
is how our success is going to be measured here on this
subcommittee and on the full committee. I really look forward
to the work ahead. Thank you.
Mr. Van Orden. The gentleman yields back. I do not really
have closing comments other than the fact that I would like to
thank Ranking Member Pappas and everybody for participating in
today's hearing. I ask unanimous consent that all members have
5 legislative days to revised and extend their remarks and
exclude extraneous materials, and without objection so ordered,
this hearing is now adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 11:24 a.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.]
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A P P E N D I X
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Prepared Statement of Witnesses
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Prepared Statement of Ken Smith
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Statements for the Record
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Prepared Statement of Defense Credit Union Council
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Document for the Record Submitted by Derrick Van Orden
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