    [House Hearing, 119 Congress]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]

                       BUREAUCRATIC BARRIERS: MAKING VBA
                      EDUCATION SERVICES WORK FOR VETERANS
                           AND NOT THE BUREAUCRACY

    =======================================================================

                                    HEARING

                                   before the

                      SUBCOMMITTEE ON ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY

                                     of the

                         COMMITTEE ON VETERANS' AFFAIRS

                         U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                        ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS

                                 FIRST SESSION

                                   __________

                           TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 11, 2025

                                   __________

                                Serial No. 119-4

                                   __________

           Printed for the use of the Committee on Veterans' Affairs

        [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

                        Available via http://govinfo.gov
                                       _______

                     U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE

    59-614                    WASHINGTON : 2025

                         COMMITTEE ON VETERANS' AFFAIRS

                         MIKE BOST, Illinois, Chairman

    AUMUA AMATA COLEMAN RADEWAGEN,       MARK TAKANO, California, Ranking
        American Samoa, Vice-Chairwoman      Member
    JACK BERGMAN, Michigan               JULIA BROWNLEY, California
    NANCY MACE, South Carolina           CHRIS PAPPAS, New Hampshire
    MARIANNETTE MILLER-MEEKS, Iowa       SHEILA CHERFILUS-MCCORMICK,
    GREGORY F. MURPHY, North Carolina        Florida
    DERRICK VAN ORDEN, Wisconsin         MORGAN MCGARVEY, Kentucky
    MORGAN LUTTRELL, Texas               DELIA RAMIREZ, Illinois
    JUAN CISCOMANI, Arizona              NIKKI BUDZINSKI, Illinois
    KEITH SELF, Texas                    TIMOTHY M. KENNEDY, New York
    JEN KIGGANS, Virginia                MAXINE DEXTER, Oregon
    ABE HAMADEH, Arizona                 HERB CONAWAY, New Jersey
    KIMBERLYN KING-HINDS, Northern       KELLY MORRISON, Minnesota
        Mariana Islands
    TOM BARRETT, Michigan

                           Jon Clark, Staff Director
                      Matt Reel, Democratic Staff Director

                      SUBCOMMITTEE ON ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY

                     DERRICK VAN ORDEN, Wisconsin, Chairman

    JUAN CISCOMANI, Arizona              CHRIS PAPPAS, New Hampshire,
    ABE HAMADEH, Arizona                     Ranking Member
    KIMBERLYN KING-HINDS, Northern       MORGAN MCGARVEY, Kentucky
        Mariana Islands                  DELIA RAMIREZ, Illinois
    TOM BARRETT, Michigan                TIMOTHY M. KENNEDY, New York

    Pursuant to clause 2(e)(4) of Rule XI of the Rules of the House, public
    hearing records of the Committee on Veterans' Affairs are also
    published in electronic form. The printed hearing record remains the
    official version. Because electronic submissions are used to prepare
    both printed and electronic versions of the hearing record, the process
    of converting between various electronic formats may introduce
    unintentional errors or omissions. Such occurrences are inherent in the
    current publication process and should diminish as the process is
    further refined.

                             C  O  N  T  E  N  T  S

                                  ----------

                           TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 11, 2025

                                                                       Page

                               OPENING STATEMENTS

    The Honorable Derrick Van Orden, Chairman........................     1
    The Honorable Chris Pappas, Ranking Member.......................     3

                                   WITNESSES

    Mr. Ken Smith, Acting Executive Director, Education Service,
      Department of Veterans Affairs.................................     5

            Accompanied by:

        Mr. James Ruhlman, Deputy Director, Education Service,
            Department of Veterans Affairs

                                    APPENDIX
                        Prepared Statement Of Witnesses

    Mr. Ken Smith Prepared Statement.................................    27

                           Statements For The Record

    Defense Credit Union Council.....................................    35
    Document for the Record Submitted by Derrick Van Orden...........    38

                       BUREAUCRATIC BARRIERS: MAKING VBA
                      EDUCATION SERVICES WORK FOR VETERANS
                            AND NOT THE BUREAUCRACY

                                  ----------

                           TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 11, 2025

          Subcommittee on Economic Opportunity,
                        Committee on Veterans' Affairs,
                                      House of Representatives,
                                                       Washington, D.C.
        The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:14 a.m., in
    room 360, Cannon House Office Building, Hon. Derrick Van Orden
    (chairman of the subcommittee) presiding.
        Present: Representatives Van Orden, Ciscomani, Hamadeh,
    King-Hinds, Barrett, Pappas, McGarvey, Ramirez, and Kennedy.

            OPENING STATEMENT OF DERRICK VAN ORDEN, CHAIRMAN

        Mr. Van Orden. Good morning. The Subcommittee will come to
    order. Before we begin testimony for the first hearing of the
    119th Congress, I would like to introduce myself. I am Derrick
    Van Orden. I think I would speak loud enough if I have that
    microphone. I just figured that out. I am a retired Navy SEAL
    senior chief. I am the longest serving enlisted member of the
    military to ever be elected to Congress. I have used every
    educational program that the Department of Defense offers,
    including our Veterans Readiness and Employment (VR&E), and I
    used the G.I. Bill to help educate my children.
        I get all my health care through the VA. I love the VA. I
    love the folks that give me my medical care. Welcome, ma'am. I
    am sorry. I would love, I love our health care providers. I
    love the folks that have helped me get my education.
        What I despise about the VA is the bureaucracy and we waste
    billions and billions of dollars supporting the bureaucracy of
    VA. It is my intent to stop that.
        Every single dollar that is wastefully spent is one that
    does not go to a veteran, either their health care or education
    or our gold star families, the benefits that they have earned
    by sacrificing their family.
        Essentially this is Groundhog Day. Mr. Barrett chaired the
    subcommittee yesterday. It was a closed session, so I will not
    described it in detail but essentially what we have identified
    again is billions and billions and billions of dollars worth of
    waste that the VA is responsible for through either inadequate
    or no planning at all and that has got to stop.
        I would be remiss not to mention my great friend, Mike, who
    is no longer the ranking member. He has moved onto
    appropriation. I do not know why he would want to go there, but
    I would like to welcome Mr. Pappas. We had a great meeting in
    private discussing your priorities, which would be veterans
    homelessness, and we will be going to a field hearing to your
    districts.
        You have not heard this yet, but this is not a bipartisan
    committee. This is a nonpartisan committee and that is, we
    started that. Mike and I had a great relationship, and I expect
    the same. I cannot believe Morgan is back. Good to see him. Mr.
    Barrett, and ma'am, it is so wonderful to have you here.
        I want to make sure that we follow through with some things
    that we started in the 118th, so from the Senator Elizabeth
    Dole 21st Century Veterans Healthcare and Benefits Improvement
    Act we were able to pass improvements to education benefits,
    homelessness prevention, homelessness prevention benefits,
    Uniformed Services Employment and Reemployment Rights Act
    (USERRA) and reduce the red tape of the VA
        We will hear from the VA today. We have lots more to do to
    this and I want to make sure that we are going to refocus the
    Veterans Affairs Administration on veterans and not the
    Veterans Affairs Administration. We are going to talk about
    State of Education Services. The Department of Veterans Affairs
    since 2020 the number of employees at the Education Services at
    VA's headquarters in D.C. has nearly doubled growing from 102
    to 185 in 2024. I want to say it again, the headquarters staff
    has nearly doubled but the actual budget has only increased by,
    it went from $1.5 billion to $12.1 billion and that is a
    tremendous amount of money.
        If we are spending all this money and we are increasing the
    bureaucracy and not sending that to veterans benefits, that is
    a problem.
        I swear to God this is like Groundhog Day. I am just going
    to bulletize some things here so that everybody understands for
    the record. We have seen this in this hearing room contract and
    oversight mistakes of the G.I., the digital G.I. Bill to the
    tune of billions of dollars--excuse me, hundreds of millions of
    dollars, VA bureaucrats going rogue with risk-based surveys
    leading to schools backing out from accepting the G.I. bill, so
    the antithesis of what the VA is supposed to be doing are
    actually chasing veterans away from getting educated, an
    absolutely foolish interpretation of a Supreme Court case that
    will add nearly $10 billion to the deficit over the next decade
    and not help anybody, a VA proposing rule to Federal Registry
    using the wrong form causing schools to panic, paperwork,
    government employees reinterpreting congressional law and
    kicking out religious schools from our G.I. Bill. Unacceptable.
    Former head of Education Services giving out his contact
    information to school certifying officials because they had so
    many communications issues that needed to be solved and the
    list just goes on and on and on and on and on. It is going to
    stop. Like this is going to stop.
        I am very excited to have a new Secretary of the Veterans
    Affairs. Denis was a friend of mine. I think he was undermined
    and subverted by a lot of people sitting over here, permanent
    bureaucrats. I firmly believe that. Denis wanted to do what was
    right and his feet were knocked out from underneath him by the
    permanent ruling class in Washington D.C. and those are not
    elected officials, and it is going to stop.
        We are going to do everything we can to make sure that
    every single dollar that is allocated by this Congress goes to
    help a veteran, not a bureaucrat. And so help me, God, that is
    my sole intent and if I do not know how I could be more clear.
    Mr. Pappas, that is how this is going to go. I yield to the
    ranking member for any comments you may have, sir.

           OPENING STATEMENT OF CHRIS PAPPAS, RANKING MEMBER

        Mr. Pappas. Well I want to thank you first for your service
    in Congress but also to our great nation and just the spirit by
    which you approach your role here as a chair of this
    subcommittee. I was on this subcommittee for my first two terms
    in Congress. Really pleased to back and look forward to
    developing a good, strong working relationship and continuing
    the work that you did with Mike Levin for the last couple
    years.
        I want to thank you for holding this session here today. I
    think we can all agree that the G.I. Bill is landmark law, and
    I look forward to the work that we will do today together to
    ensure that student veterans are provided the level of quality
    that they deserve. I think we cannot hold this hearing today
    without recognizing what is transpiring, the pressures on
    federal programs and certainly on the Federal workforce as well
    dedicated people that meet the needs of veterans each and every
    day.
        I want to take a trip back to late 2024, the final two
    hearings of the Veterans Affairs Committee were on federal
    agency overreach and poor performance due to staffing shortages
    at the Veterans Readiness and Employment program. Since the
    inauguration of President Trump, the VA has been thrown into
    chaos as other federal agencies have been thrown into chaos.
    Hiring freezes, pushing staff to quit, suspending grants,
    eliminating programs that veterans with disabilities rely on
    and frankly this congress has not stepped up to its authority
    and stepped up to the plate in a way that I think we should be
    at this moment.
        This is an authority that expert witnesses said would be
    used to restrain abuses in the executive branch. I will give
    you quote from a recent hearing, ``Agencies are not permitted
    to misread their congressional charge and statutes, and their
    interpretation ought to be regarded with special skepticism
    when they purport to find sweeping new authorities in old
    statutes.'' That was Dr. Phillip Wallick, senior fellow at
    American Enterprise Institute (AEI) testified before this
    committee on December 18th of last year.
        Yet today agencies under President Trump's executive
    actions are finding all kinds of new ways to circumvent
    congressional oversight. Dr. Wallick further remind this
    committee during his testimony after the Loper decision that
    many observers hope that these interventions can come from the
    executive branch, specifically politically appointees in the
    upcoming Trump administration, notably Elon Musk and Vivek
    Ramaswamy who lead the recently conceived Department of
    Government Efficiency (DOGE) argued in the Wall Street
    Journal's, Wall Street Journal that the court's recent ruling
    opens the door for the President to nullify thousands of
    regulations based on improper interpretations through
    nonenforcement and then review and recession.
        ``It is not at all clear that this is a sound prescription.
    Instead the remedy for excessive administrative power is a
    revitalization of congressional power not just a different
    flavor of administrative power as overseen by a more aggressive
    court.'' Dr. Wallick concluded his testimony by emphasizing how
    members from both parties should rely on information and
    guidance provided by public service professionals at VA and
    push bipartisan legislation through Congress. He said if that
    seems like pie-in-the-sky idea of how the House operates then
    we all need to be asking how to make it work better.
        I believe in the good work of this subcommittee and the
    role of our committee in legislating and in overseeing the
    Department. None of us want unelected bureaucrats running wild,
    damaging systems, and compromising benefits for veterans. I
    want to work with every member of this subcommittee to ensure
    that veterans are at the center of all of our efforts and that
    we are truly delivering the benefits that they have earned in a
    timely fashion.
        Mr. Chairman, I appreciate your comments saying that this
    is a nonpartisan place for work, and I could not agree more.
    That is why we must do the job of oversight of federal agencies
    and programs, stand tall as a co-equal branch of government and
    not shrink from our responsibilities, especially when it comes
    to the end veteran.
        Regarding the hearing today, I look forward to VA providing
    more information on the implementation of the Elizabeth Dole
    Act and hearing from VA about plans for 2025 and beyond and I
    do want to thank you most sincerely, Mr. Chairman, for the time
    and I yield back and look forward to the next couple of years
    together.
        Mr. Van Orden. Thank you, Mr. Pappas. I appreciate several
    of your comments. I would, I would like us to focus internally,
    sir. I have done nothing over the last two years other than
    reminding the Biden Administration that we are a co-equal
    branch of government, and I would, I would remind you, sir,
    that President Trump has been in office for three weeks and I
    think a day. Let us look forward collectively to doing things
    great and if we have concerns I think we should address these.
        I will now introduce the witness panel. Our first witness
    is Mr. Ken Smith, Acting Executive Director of Education
    Services, at the Veterans Benefits Administration (VBA). Mr.
    Smith is accompanied by Mr. James Ruhlman--I got that right--
    Deputy Director of Education Services at the Veterans Benefits
    Administration.
        I will ask the witnesses to please stand and raise your
    right hand. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are
    about to provide is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
    the truth?
        [Witnesses sworn.]
        Mr. Van Orden. Thank you. Let the record reflect that the
    witnesses have answered in the affirmative. Mr. Smith, you are
    now recognized for 5 minutes to deliver your testimony on
    behalf of the Department of Veterans Affairs.

                         STATEMENT OF KEN SMITH

        Mr. Smith. Thank you, sir. Chairman Orden, Van Orden,
    Ranking Member Pappas, and Members of the Subcommittee, thank
    you for the opportunity to discuss the VA's delivery of
    education benefits to our veterans and their families.
    Accompanying me today is Mr. James Ruhlman, Deputy Director of
    Education Service.
        I understand and I am read in the concerns this committee
    has raised on various issues in this space. One such issue that
    came to my attention with your staff's recent visit to our
    regional processing office in Muskogee. While there they
    observed the processing of a claim related to the Supreme
    Court's recent Rudisill decision. I understand that it did not
    go as planned.
        While the claim was processed, it took too long and
    encountered several obstacles. Your staff heard concerns
    directly from claims processors noting the very complex
    instructions that they as claims processors are expected to
    follow. Our team also described how claims go back and forth
    several times before being fully completed, adding to the
    delays and aging of claims.
        We are taking immediate actions to engage claims processors
    who are working these claims to gather their feedback.
        VBA is evaluating current resources and tools, finetuning
    procedures and exploring additional training opportunities, as
    well as enforcing accountability throughout the process.
        Despite some challenges, I want to highlight that VA's made
    some great strides over the last several years to improve
    benefit delivery and customer experience. VA's automated
    approximately 50 percent of certificates of eligibility for new
    applicants, allowing veterans to start their educational
    pursuits faster.
        Supplemental claims are currently hoovering near 70 percent
    automated up from 40 percent in March 2021. We are also working
    to modernize our systems. In July 2024, VA took the first
    tangible steps to move 87 percent education benefit payments
    off of the 50-year-old legacy Common Business-Oriented Language
    (COBOL) system. Just this month, VA processed its first non-
    Chapter 33 claims on the Digital GI Bill (DGI) platform. We are
    on track to complete the migration from the legacy Benefits
    Delivery Network (BDN) system by November 2025.
        With the recent passage of the Elizabeth Dole Act, VA has
    momentum to make necessary improvements to assist veterans in
    obtaining full-time employment. Participants in the prior
    program overwhelmingly recommended Veterans Technology
    Education Courses (VET TEC) to other veterans.
        VA proactively--VA's proactive efforts to improve customer
    experience are making a difference across the board.
        VBA's customer experience Survey Trust Score responses
    indicate 87 percent of respondents expressed confidence about
    enrolling in schools to use their education benefits up from 72
    percent in 2022 and 85.6 percent trust that they will receive
    their education benefits up from 75 percent in 2022.
        VA also recognizes that strengthening partnerships with
    external entities expands the veteran support network. We will
    meet regularly with the leadership of the national association
    of state approving agencies (SAA) and school certifying
    officials. Our collaboration with the SAAs has improved the
    risk-based surveys resulting in improved accountability and VA
    is currently approving new programs in approximately 5 days.
        School certifying officials (SCO) are important partners
    serving as the first touchpoint for veterans enrolling in
    school. These SCOs overwhelmingly endorse improvements to the
    DGI enrollment manager, which replaced the first, the legacy
    VA. Once program in March 2023, and has already processed 10
    million enrollments.
        In calendar year 2025, VA will address multiple high
    priorities to include continuing DGI modernization, improving
    the Rudisill review for a million potential beneficiaries and
    enacting the many education related provision of the Elizabeth
    Dole Act. We will also implement recommendations from the
    Office of Inspector General and Government Accountability
    Office (GAO).
        Mr. Chairman, I share this committee's mission of working
    for veterans and ensuring that VA effectively delivers the very
    benefits that veterans have earned and deserve. I commit to you
    that I will work to get it right, remain transparent in our
    efforts and to not shy away from the challenges. My team and I
    will also put veterans and beneficiaries first.
        Mr. Chairman, this concludes my statement. My colleague and
    I are prepared to answer any questions you or other members of
    the committee may have.

        [The Prepared Statement Of Ken Smith Appears In The
    Appendix]

        Mr. Van Orden. Thank you, Mr. Smith. The written statement
    of Mr. Smith will be entered into the hearing record. We are
    now going to proceed with the questioning. You are new here,
    you two are, so we do 5 minutes, not 5 minutes and 50 second.
    Cool? Keep it on track. We can always do a second round of
    questioning if you guys are not satisfied with the answers from
    the witnesses. Okay? Yes, I am talking to McGarvey over there.
    All right. I now recognize the Ranking Member Pappas for 5
    minutes to question the witnesses.
        Mr. Pappas. Okay. Let us see how I do, sir.
        Mr. Van Orden. You will be fine.
        Mr. Pappas. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thanks for the
    testimony, Mr. Smith, and our office and so many of my
    colleagues' offices have been flooded with constituent calls
    over the last few days and few weeks. We have literally heard
    from thousands of people in my district in New Hampshire who
    are concerned about sweeping executive orders from the
    administration including those that are impacting VA.
        The orders along with unclear guidance have I think shaken
    confidence in the ability of, or the understanding that VA is
    going to deliver on its promises to our veterans. I have heard
    that directly from the veteran community in New Hampshire.
        We were recently made aware of a list of positions at VA
    that are not eligible for Elon Musk's so-called fork-in-the-
    road retirement plan. One of the positions is the VR&E
    counselor. You may be aware that I sent a letter to the
    secretary asking for this position to be exempt from the hiring
    freeze. My question to you is if the position is so mission
    critical that these individuals are not eligible for the
    retirement offer why are these positions subject to a hiring
    freeze?
        Mr. Smith. Thank you for the question, sir. There is a
    separate executive order that we are operating under that
    implement a government wide hiring freeze and, you know, we are
    following that order.
        Mr. Pappas. Do you expect that VA will request an exemption
    from the freeze to hire staff members that can service
    veterans' economic opportunity benefits including positions
    that are needed to administer VR&E.
        Mr. Smith. I am not sure what the secretary will choose to
    do. I certainly await his guidance.
        Mr. Pappas. Okay. If an exemption were granted and wait
    times were not granted and wait times could increase as a
    result would the administration reconsider an exemption as soon
    as possible to minimize the impact to disabled veterans who are
    seeking employment?
        Mr. Smith. We absolutely want to minimize impact to the
    extent possible and we will work with you and the appropriators
    to make sure that we have, that we can fill to our budget
    ceiling once we have reached the position where we can begin
    hiring again.
        Mr. Pappas. To your knowledge have any VR&E connected
    positions been rescinded?
        Mr. Smith. I do not know, sir.
        Mr. Pappas. Okay. What if anything is VA's plan to ensure
    that veterans do not experience delays in accessing VA's earned
    benefits?
        Mr. Smith. Speaking for the education delivery of benefits,
    our positions, our claims processing positions are also
    exempted as claims processors. We continue to execute against
    the mission with the staffing that we have, and our high rate
    of automation is supporting that as well allowing us to deliver
    those critical benefits.
        Mr. Pappas. I want to get to Rudisill. You brought it up in
    your testimony, a population of over a million veterans and
    their dependents who are potentially impacted by the decision
    which established that eligible veterans and their dependents
    can access up to 48 months of education benefits if they served
    during two periods, typically before and after 9/11. How is the
    president's hiring freeze impacting VA's ability to begin
    reviewing these records?
        Mr. Smith. We are, we are reviewing all of the Rudisill
    claims with existing staff. I would say that we have the staff
    onboard to conduct this review. Right now we are in the midst
    of our spring hiring surge, so we are working to ensure that we
    are delivering benefits for veterans and family members who are
    in school and then we will shift to Rudisill. We prioritize
    those claims so that we are making decisions for those that are
    in school and low on remaining entitlement so that they can
    continue their educational pursuits.
        Mr. Pappas. With respect to the review in a briefing,
    January 7th, it was reported that it would take approximately
    22 months to complete the review because existing examiners at
    regional processing offices have the ability to conduct this
    work--only have the ability to conduct the work during nonpeak
    enrollment periods.
        It seems that waiting to hear about eligibility for 22
    months is not centering on veterans and putting them first. Is
    there any way that that timeframe can be expedited? What would
    you need to get that review done in a much more timely fashion?
        Mr. Smith. As I said we are, we, our current method is to
    prioritize those claims that where the veteran or family member
    is in school or low on entitlement. That is I think the best we
    can offer at the moment. I----
        Mr. Pappas. Would additional staffing help you conduct
    those that review in a timelier fashion, less than 22 months?
        Mr. Smith. These are very complex determinations. I am not
    certain that additional staffing at this point would help.
        Mr. Pappas. Okay. My time is up. I yield back.
        Mr. Van Orden. Thank you, Ranking Member Pappas. I now
    recognize Mr. Barrett from the great state of Michigan, which
    is directly across from Lake Wisconsin.
        Mr. Barrett. Is that anywhere near the Gulf of America, Mr.
    Chairman?
        Mr. Van Orden. Very close, sir.
        Mr. Barrett. Okay.
        Mr. Van Orden. I am glad someone got that.
        Mr. Barrett. Well thank you. Mr. Smith, I know that there
    has been a lot of discussion about these risk-based surveys
    that are done and what constraint that has had, the downstream
    effect of that on veterans being able to access education that
    really fits their needs and what they are seeking. Can you give
    us an update as to the status of these risk-based surveys and
    whether they are being used in a strategic way to
    disincentivize education institutions from participating in the
    G.I. Bill and making that accessible to veterans?
        Mr. Smith. Thank you for the questions, sir. I will give a
    short answer and then hand it off to Mr. Ruhlman, who is much
    more an expert on risk-based surveys. I will say that we do not
    target any specific schools. We use a data-driven approach to
    determine who ought to be reviewed under these surveys and
    ensure that veterans are receiving the training and not defraud
    out other benefits. Mr. Ruhlman?
        Mr. Ruhlman. The purpose of the risk-based surveys is to
    provide health checks and fix any problems before veterans
    become at risk and end up being impacted by a school closures
    and not being delivered with the quality of education that they
    deserve and expect.
        We do work closely with our SAA partners to revised that
    model. We have actually done it for three years in a row and we
    are currently in discussions with the state approving agencies
    at their mid-winter conference in Crystal City, which is going
    on this week.
        We are going to continue to revise those models. We have
    seen decreases year after year as we have revised that model
    from about 1,300 in Fiscal Year 2023, about 250 in Fiscal Year
    2024, and less than 200 this year and we will continue to do
    that. It is not the goal of either VA or the state approving
    agencies that are doing the risk-based surveys to drive schools
    out of the market or to decrease the number of opportunities
    available. We remain committed to working with our partners to
    make sure that we are looking at the right schools and not
    overburdening other schools that are in good shape.
        Mr. Barrett. Is it also true that someone not involved with
    the VA, not a part of your organization or anything else can
    still prompt a complaint that would trigger this review that
    you have described, the risk-based survey that you have
    described?
        Mr. Ruhlman. Complaints can drive the selection of a school
    for a risk-based survey. We actually have a minimum of two
    complaints that are needed in order to possibly do that and
    that is actually done also in combination with a number of
    other factors such as rapid growth in the student population
    enrolled in a program, the payments per student 85/15
    violations, 90/10 violations, any other serious actions or
    scrutiny by state or federal agencies.
        We do negotiate the selection of those schools with the
    state approving agencies. we do not expect a school to be
    selected solely because of the single or even two anonymous
    complaints. That was something that was at least partially
    responsible for the 1,300 number in Fiscal Year 2023.
        That is one of the things that we have really focused on
    along with no longer looking at the, at the transfer or
    retention or persistence rates which tended to target community
    colleges and two-year feeder schools for the four-years.
        Mr. Barrett. Okay. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
        Mr. Van Orden. Thank you, Mr. Barrett. The chair now
    recognizes Morgan McGarvey from the great state of Kentucky.
        Mr. McGarvey. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Good to be back here
    this Congress with you all. Thank you all for being here today.
    Look, I think one of the things that makes this committee a fun
    committee to serve on is that we all agree. We all agree that
    we want to get our veterans, the brave men and women who are
    willing to put on a uniform and sacrifice everything for us,
    the benefits they have earned, and they were promised.
        I am glad we are having this hearing because we need to
    focus on how to better serve our veterans. I also want to make
    sure that we are putting all the focus on the right place,
    which is getting these veterans their services and how do we
    actually do that because that is what we want to have happen.
    Come back with me to Louisville, Kentucky. I will take you in
    the VA. I will take you in Veterans of Foreign Wars (VFW) 1170.
    I will take you anywhere. You are going to hear some similar
    things.
        One, a lot of veterans do appreciate when the VA works for
    them and there are things at the VA that are working for them.
    Then they are going to tell you about the things that the VA
    that are not working for them. We are here today talking about
    education benefits on this committee, and I think you would
    hear a lot of things, speed, that they are not getting these
    benefits quickly enough. You are going to probably hear
    complaints about confusing jargon, confusing things that happen
    like how do we, how do we jump through these hoops? How do we
    get these benefits we were supposed to have earned? Of course,
    that ease of access kind of goes in with the confusing jargon.
    How are we getting veterans what they need?
        When we talk about the VA and the bureaucracy at the VA, I
    think we can admit we all want there to be efficiency in the
    VA, we want these services to be timely delivered, but I do not
    want to just scapegoat every person who works at the VA,
    because we have a lot of really talented public servants who
    are at the VA getting our veterans the care and the things they
    need.
        When you look at what is happening, even though we are only
    three weeks into the Trump Administration, when we look at the
    executive orders on the hiring freezes, that applies to
    everybody even, we have heard from doctors who have had a
    hiring freeze and I know we are not talking about health care
    in VA today, but that certainly plays into what we are talking
    about. They are talking about drastically altering some of
    these policies in an effort to starve out some of our dedicated
    public servants and cut the workforce at the VA.
        I think we are here with the right intention, but I want to
    make sure we are here with the right focus and when you look at
    congress, it is, the real complaint here is we need to improve
    the policies and procedures in VA, let us do it. Let us work
    together to make those changes. I am totally for it.
        If we are concerned that railing against the VA is just
    pretext to begin a DOGE death spiral of the VA, where you gut
    the workforce in name of efficiency leading to slower benefit
    delivery and more backlog for our vets, then let us remember
    who we are here to serve.
        I think about these changes, one you mentioned something I
    want to get into, Mr. Smith, you said that additional staffing
    would not necessarily help. You know, one thing I hear from
    veterans is even if we go in the name of, look, we use
    technology in all of our daily lives. I hear from a lot of
    veterans that at the end of the day they want a person at the
    other end of the line eventually. What would help? You said
    staffing will not help. What will help us clear this backlog
    and get veterans the benefits they need and deserve?
        Mr. Smith. Thank you for the question. I certainly
    appreciate your comments. We are very focused in improving our
    Trust Score including all of the elements that you just
    mentioned as well as ensure that veterans feel valued. That is
    a key element of our Trust Score.
        In terms of what would, I am sorry, what will help, I would
    say we need better procedures, we need better job aids. We
    should not have to require our claims processors to do many
    multiple tasks without, you know, some supporting like
    templates. And I think we can look at technology as an enabler
    as well.
        We are not there right now. We need to take a look at, you
    know, things within our control in terms of those policies,
    procedures, job aids, and tools, issue some reinforcement to
    our folks who are one month or six weeks into processing these
    Rudisill claims on a very steep learning curve and then
    reassess and go forward.
        Mr. McGarvey. Thanks. We are short on time and so I just
    want to say I appreciate that. I do want to make sure that we
    are getting our veterans what they need. If some of that is
    technology that is fantastic. We need efficiency. We need
    better off.
        We also, we need to recognize what is going on right now.
    There are 1.7 million veterans who have been come eligible for
    additional G.I. benefits. The VBA is already using overtime and
    seasonal capacity so thanks so much and we will keep on this.
        Mr. Van Orden. Mr. McGarvey, if you would like we will do a
    second round of questions. I understand Mr. Pappas would like
    to do that already. Thank you very much. The gentleman yields
    back. The chair now recognizes our newest member from the
    Northern Mariana Islands, Ms. King-Hinds for 5 minutes.
        Ms. King-Hinds. Thank you, Mr. Chairman for this
    opportunity to learn a little bit more about Veteran Education
    Services. I come from the Northern Mariana Islands and our
    issue with the regards to veterans issue is just access. I am
    curious to just to see what the program currently does to
    ensure that equitable access for veterans living in remote
    areas like the Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands
    (CNMI) with regards to the digital G.I. Bill platform is,
    ensures basically that our veterans have the same access.
        Mr. Smith. Yes, thank you for the question. All U.S.
    service members establish eligibility to education benefits
    based on the merits of their service. I would like to ask
    Ruhlman to talk just a little bit about getting schools
    approved over, you know, in remote areas.
        Mr. Ruhlman. Sure. Prior to this hearing I actually did
    look to see how many schools are approved in the Commonwealth
    of the Northern Mariana's. There is one college on Saipan and
    that is it. To the extent that you have other training
    providers that are interested in seeking G.I. Bill approval we
    can work with you to get them G.I. Bill approved in order to
    have more opportunities in the Northern Marianas for veterans
    who do live there, and we would love to work with you on that.
        We also do have a number of programs which are online which
    could be accessed and those of course can be accessed worldwide
    but really we need to have more schools offering programs
    whether that is technical schools, degree granting programs,
    employers who have on the job training (OJT) programs, that is
    one of the ways that probably you could increase the number
    would be to find some employers whether that is electricians,
    plumbers, really any of the trades, skilled trades that have
    OJT programs could be approved in the Northern Marianas as well
    to allow people to use their benefits and to gain skills which
    will help them get better paying jobs.
        Ms. King-Hinds. All right. Thank you. It was raised that a
    lot of times, right, our vets really would like to be able to
    have access to a real-life person to be able to work through
    some of these applications. In remote areas like the CNMI or
    rural areas in particular, right, access to the internet is a
    challenge.
        What have you done with regards to just outreach to these
    communities to ensure, right, we are talking about digitizing a
    platform, but in remote communities like ours sometimes access
    to digital platforms is a challenge and so what outreach work
    has been done to ensure that remote and rural communities just
    have a fighting chance basically at being able to avail some of
    these services?
        Mr. Smith. Mr. Ruhlman, could answer the question? I would
    like ask Mr. Ruhlman to answer that question.
        Mr. Ruhlman. Most of our outreach is done using a number of
    different approaches. The bulk of it is through email,
    websites, and it is electronic. I am sure we would have people
    who would love to do additional outreach in person but that
    would require additional travel funding.
        I am not sure what else we can do in the short run, but I
    would love to have further discussions about what we could do
    to provide better service to individuals in the, in the
    Commonwealth of the Northern Marianas as well as other more
    remote places within the United States because we do want to
    reach those individuals as well.
        Ms. King-Hinds. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield my time.
        Mr. Van Orden. The gentlelady yields back. The chair now
    recognizes Mrs. Ramirez, my dear friend from the great state of
    Illinois.
        Ms. Ramirez. Thank you, Chairman. It is good to have
    midwestern representation in committee. I want to thank the
    Ranking Member also for holding today's hearing and the
    witnesses for joining us today.
        By the title of this hearing, I would like to believe we
    are all in agreement that education is an important tool to
    lift up our veterans and provide them with opportunities. While
    I know that my colleagues across the aisle have turned their
    backs on commitment to honor inclusion because of the current
    administration's attacks on diversity, on equity, and inclusion
    programs, I do have some news for them. On turning their backs
    on a commitment to diversity is turning their backs on
    veterans.
        Veterans are diverse and I am proud to represent 20,727
    diverse veterans of Illinois 3rd Congression District. Let us
    be clear, now when we are talking about veterans, we are
    talking about women, we are talking about people of color, we
    are talking about first generation veterans, we are talking
    about low-income veterans, we are talking about Lesbian, Gay,
    Bisexual, Transgender, Queer, Intersex, Asexual Plus (LGBTQIA+)
    veterans and deported veterans. They are all veterans. Each
    veteran is to be celebrated in their diversity and entitled to
    full access to their benefits that they have earned, and we
    promised them.
        That is why I take such a responsibility to provide careful
    oversight of our education services seriously. It is our job.
    We cannot let allow the times to dismantle veterans services or
    deny the unique needs of diverse veterans in the name of
    efficiency derail us from our duty. In fact if anything it
    should make us fight even harder to fund the progress we have
    made in serving veterans more effectively. With that I want to
    turn to some questions.
        The G.I. Bill comparison tool currently allows veterans to
    search for schools that have a particular population focus such
    as a women college for example, Alaska Native serving
    institutions, Hispanic serving institutions, we call them HSIs
    or historically Black colleges and universities, the HBCUs. Mr.
    Smith, will the VA remove this information as a search feature
    for veterans in order to comply with Trump's administration's
    executive orders ending diversity, equity, and inclusion
    programming?
        Mr. Smith. Thank you for the question, ma'am. One week on
    the job in and I have not gotten any instructions to that, to
    that end. I would be happy to bring something back to you.
        Ms. Ramirez. Mr. Smith, I would appreciate that. I
    certainly want to make sure that I know what search information
    is available and not available as veterans are looking at
    schools so we will follow up with you. Let me send you, let me
    ask you another follow-up question as you are searching. If the
    VA would remove the ability to search institutions by diversity
    characteristics, how would interfering with, how would that
    actually interfere with a veterans freedom to choose a school
    of their liking? Do you want, let me, do you want me to repeat
    it?
        Mr. Smith. Please.
        Ms. Ramirez. Yes. I have asked you if the VA is looking at
    removing this information, the search feature that allows
    people to look at a school, you know, based on is it a woman's
    colleges, is it an Alaska Native serving institution, is it an
    HSI or HBCU, and my question to was, is the VA going to remove
    the search feature and my follow-up question to you, because
    you are going to get me that information is if the VA removes
    the ability to search institutions by diversity characteristics
    how will this interfere with a veterans freedom to choose a
    school of their liking?
        Mr. Smith. I believe that would force them to use another
    search method for identifying schools of their choice. That is
    my suggestion.
        Ms. Ramirez. What search method would they be using?
    Google, like what?
        Mr. Smith. That would be my guess.
        Ms. Ramirez. Well they would have to Googling when they
    already were able to do that through the system that they use
    but now we are saying we do not want you to have that choice,
    so we are going to have you have to go look at other formats.
    In some ways it would impact their ability and accessibility to
    be able to look through the system they already have in place.
    Correct?
        Mr. Smith. It would be a two-step process.
        Ms. Ramirez. Making it harder for veterans. All right. Well
    let me, let me follow up. This past week my district office has
    been taking calls from concerned constituents who are unclear
    about how the Trump's administration executive orders on
    funding and programs may impact the processing of their G.I.
    claims and their G.I. benefits.
        Let me ask you one last question, Mr. Smith. Since these
    executive orders have been announced have veterans reached out
    concerned about the impact of the changes under education
    services and benefits?
        Mr. Smith. I am unaware of any call traffic specifically
    tagged to the executive orders but I could certainly research
    that.
        Ms. Ramirez. Do you have more calls this last week than you
    had before?
        Mr. Smith. I am unsure what our call volumes are right now.
        Ms. Ramirez. Can you check on that for me? Thank you.
        Mr. Smith. Certainly.
        Ms. Ramirez. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Mr. Van Orden. The gentlelady yields back. Interestingly
    enough we have a senior enlisted guy here, we have got a
    warrant officer, and a commissioned officer, right? Correct?
    Army Intel? That is an oxymoron right there, I will tell you to
    be honest with you.
        I would like to just publicly state that from my
    perspective I do not recall a single instance where we cared
    about the color of someone's skin, their gender, their
    religion, or what they do in the privacy of their own home.
        I think we all need to get back to that position and I can
    affirmatively speak with confidence from the Trump
    administration from their perspective that they do not care
    about the color of your skin, your gender, your religion, or
    what you do in the privacy of your home, an that we will be
    approaching, they will be approaching as will this subcommittee
    from an absolutely, 100 percent neutral perspective and if
    anyone chooses to not do that then they are no longer welcome
    on this subcommittee, and that is how we are doing our
    business. That is cut and dry. That is the formal policy, and
    Mr. Pappas, I have not even discussed this, but we are not
    doing this correct?
        Mr. Pappas. Doing what?
        Mr. Van Orden. We are not going to, we are not going to
    look at people through these individual lenses?
        Mr. Pappas. Well I would be happy to have a conversation
    about it.
        Mr. Van Orden. Okay.
        Mr. Pappas. What the VA needs to do to reach underserved
    veterans----
        Mr. Van Orden. Yes, 100----
        Mr. Pappas [continuing]. so I think there is a----
        Mr. Van Orden.--percent.
        Mr. Pappas [continuing]. legitimate concern about
    Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI) going away and us not
    being able to seek out those veterans that deserve and need
    assistance. I think that is the concern that Mrs. Ramirez was
    expressing, and I support her questions.
        Mr. Van Orden. Yes. I do not get me wrong, my, I have
    tremendous amount of respect for you, ma'am. I just want to
    tell you that our prospective as veterans from the entire
    stratified levels of the military is we just do not see things
    that way and we served, Tom, how long have you, how long were
    in?
        Mr. Barrett. Twenty-two years, Mr. Chair.
        Mr. Van Orden. I was 26, how about you, Mr. Hamadeh?
        Mr. Hamadeh. Eighteen.
        Mr. Van Orden. Okay. We have got 60 years of military
    experience here. I am just saying that we do not see it that
    way. If there is anything we can potentially do better to reach
    all of our veterans, if you had that flag on your shoulder I am
    with you. Just to be clear so we are on the same sheet. Very
    well.
        The chair now recognizes Mr. Ciscomani from the great state
    of Arizona for 5 minutes.
        Mr. Ciscomani. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. You know, one of
    the major focuses that I have, that I have had since getting
    here to Congress and being on this, on this committee, is the
    transition from active-duty service into veteran, into civilian
    life and also what that means for them in terms of job
    opportunities.
        I have an advisory council that I formed two years ago
    where I have 20 veterans in my district and they range from
    enlisted and being in for four years, all the way up to retired
    generals of 35-plus years of service. It helps me get a real
    sense of what the transition looks like and it looks
    differently for every person out there. This is one of the main
    things that I hear in our community that the different
    opportunities that veterans can have.
        With my bill, the Senator Elizabeth Dole 21st Century
    Veterans Health Care and Benefits Improvement Act, that you
    mentioned just a little bit ago now being law, I look forward
    to the many education opportunities for veterans that will be
    created as a result of this enactment, from commercial drivers
    licenses to careers in computer science, this bill puts
    veterans and their loved ones first by extending popular
    programs like the VET TEC, eliminating red tape for more
    opportunities in education for veterans and expanding the Fry
    Scholarship benefits for surviving spouses and those who
    remarry as well.
        I look forward to continuing to hear more from you all on
    how the VA is putting our veterans first through their
    educational journey. In this particular topic, Mr. Smith, as
    you know VET TEC is an important higher education program that
    has put thousands of veterans into high paying jobs across the
    country, so I look forward to seeing this continued. What does
    the VA plan to, when--I am sorry. When does the VA begin to
    enroll veterans in this program again?
        Mr. Smith. Thank you for the question, sir. We are still
    working on an implementation plan. I do not have a date yet,
    but I would be happy to bring that back to you and Congress
    once we have it?
        Mr. Ciscomani. Is there a sense of urgency on this? This is
    an important aspect of the overall bill, you know, this has
    been a pilot program that was highly successful, so I am hoping
    that we have a sense of priority and urgency on this one.
        Mr. Smith. Yes, sir.
        Mr. Ciscomani. On the, a provision in the legislation
    states that 4,000 student can be enrolled annually. Do you
    believe this number will be reached, will be reached this year?
    If you expect Congress will need to increase that number in the
    future?
        Mr. Smith. Again I think I need to get some understanding
    of what the implementation timeline looks like. We are looking
    carefully at improving the payment processing systems and our
    ability to manage this through our digital G.I. Bill platform
    to ensure that we have payment integrity and are reaching the
    right veterans, so once we get all of that lined out within an
    implementation timeline I would be happy to talk to you more.
        Mr. Ciscomani. I am very interested in talking about that
    specific timeline. The federal government is not know for its
    expediency, so I think we need to really make sure that this is
    moving quickly and swiftly.
        We have, it is 4,000 a year. In my district alone we have
    almost 80,000 veterans. That is my district alone, one of 435
    in the Nation.
        That we, in my mind there is, you know, ever reason to
    reach the 4,000 and hoping that you come back and request for
    more because this is a highly successful program that we need
    to make sure that that happens. What about other aspects of the
    bill like the Fry Scholarship, is, how is that going and where
    are we on that?
        Mr. Smith. Yes, sir. The extension of delimiting dates for
    Fry Scholars, that is already completed because that was
    something that we could handle in just regulations. We are
    moving forward with that.
        Mr. Ciscomani. I will ask the same follow-up question. What
    are the, what is the timeline on this? What are you, what are
    you thinking?
        Mr. Smith. I will ask Mr. Ruhlman to give me some help with
    that. I believe it is already done.
        Mr. Ruhlman. Yes. There actually two Fry provisions, the
    first one, Section 201, which as to do with a temporary
    expansion of Fry Scholarship benefits and that is for terms
    that start on August 1st, 2025. We do expect right now to be
    receiving applications as of April 1st for that, so it should
    be before anyone has the chance to enroll and use those
    benefits.
        For Section 202, which has to do with the delimiting date
    and remarriage. We can actually handle that procedurally
    because it is not something where it is determined by the
    computer system. That one actually was implemented on January
    30th.
        Mr. Ciscomani. Basically we are ready to roll on this,
    right? We, you know,----
        Mr. Ruhlman. Yes.
        Mr. Ciscomani. We are now ensured that providers and
    students are able to participate in these programs, and
    specifically the Fry Scholarship that is ready to go?
        Mr. Ruhlman. For the delimiting date and remarriage, yes.
        Mr. Ciscomani. Okay. Well I am out of time but my, I would
    like to just get a sense of the timeline for the VET TEC please
    as specific as you can and with specific metrics on the goals
    of reaching the participants on there and also on the remaining
    parts of the Fry Scholarship. Thank you. Chairman----
        Mr. Van Orden. The gentleman----
        Mr. Ciscomani. I yield back.
        Mr. Van Orden. The gentleman yields back. The chair now
    recognizes Mr. Hamadeh for 5 minutes. Welcome aboard, sir.
        Mr. Hamadeh. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Your previous
    comments are exactly spot on, the only thing we care about is
    the American flag on our right shoulders
        Mr. Van Orden. Right.
        Mr. Hamadeh. Right. As an Army veteran myself and a member
    of this committee, I am deeply troubled by the ongoing failures
    of the VA education service bureaucracy to efficiently deliver
    on the commitments we owe to those who have served.
        The post 911 G.I. Bill was meant to expand opportunity but
    today bureaucratic failures at the VA are delaying benefits,
    increasing costs, and making it harder for veterans to access
    the education they have earned.
        The botched digital G. I. Bill roll out is a prime example.
    What was supposed to streamline benefits ballooned from $470
    million to nearly $1 billion. I mean that is embarrassing in
    the private sector. That should be embarrassing in the
    government as well. It remains plagued by delays.
        Meaningless burden like excessive risked based surveys are
    forcing legitimate schools to drop G.I. Bill eligibility and
    the disastrous Rudisill expansion could cost taxpayers $10
    billion with VA bureaucracy unilaterally adding to the federal
    deficit. We need accountability, not excuses. Now the VA must
    work for the veteran, not against them. Those who served our
    nation deserve the best.
        Now Mr. Smith, the VA has set a November 2025 to final
    complete transitioning VA education benefits to a long delayed
    digital G.I. Bill platform. This timeline has already slipped
    before so what is VA doing to ensure that the digital G.I. Bill
    program stays on track for this release?
        Mr. Smith. Thank you for the question, sir. Let me say
    first you have my commitment to be accountable and to ensure
    that we are doing all we can to right by veterans, this
    committee and get it right for those that have earned the
    benefits.
        We are on track for November 2025 to be off the BDN or the
    benefits delivery network COBOL based system. We have had a
    successful transition this month with our first non-Chapter 33
    claims processing. We will move Chapter 35 dependents education
    assistance next month and we are on track still with that
    overall deployment in by November.
        Mr. Hamadeh. Well it has been 55 days since Chairman Bost
    sent a letter demanding answers regarding the failed
    implementation of the Digital G.I. Bill platform. I am just
    curious why the committee has not received a response?
        Mr. Smith. I will have to get back to you, sir. I----
        Mr. Hamadeh. Have you seen the letter?
        Mr. Smith. No, sir, I----
        Mr. Hamadeh. This was to the previous secretary. I am just
    wondering if there was any transition period, you know, from
    when you came in to see that letter?
        Mr. Smith. I have not yet in the first week on the job. I
    will certainly go back and look for that.
        Mr. Hamadeh. All right. Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
        Mr. Van Orden. Thank you. The chair now recognizes
    themselves in the third party for 5 minutes. It just sounds so
    silly, does not it? Mr. Smith, where is your predecessor?
        Mr. Smith. Sir, Senior Executive Service is designed as a
    flexible----
        Mr. Van Orden. Just tell me where he is at?
        Mr. Smith. He has been reassigned to another business line.
        Mr. Van Orden. Why would you suppose that is, Mr. Smith?
    The VA moves at its own speed. I ask unanimous consent that
    this from April 1st, 2023, this press release from the
    Department of Veterans Affairs is entered into the record.
    Without objection, so ordered. Okay.
        Budget cut proposals would hurt veterans. This is from
    April 21st. This is what you said that our budget cuts were
    going to threaten medical care for veterans. It did not happen.
    Undermine access to telehealth, as a matter of fact we expanded
    it. That did not happen. Worsen wait times for benefits, that
    did not happen. Prevent construction on health care facilities
    and veterans needs, that did not happen. Failed to honor the
    memory of all veterans, we actually increased the budget by $81
    million for our cemeteries overseas. Cut housing for veterans,
    no. Increase food insecurity for veterans, no. Deprive veterans
    of mental health, substance abuse, and other health services,
    no. Eliminate job training and support homeless veterans, no.
    Okay.
        This is still on your website. Okay. Enough of this trash.
    When we are talking, look, the Trump administration has been in
    office for three weeks and one day. That is still on your
    website, and it is a pack of political lies. Enough. I am sick
    of this garbage, man.
        In 2020, there were 657,928 veterans using education
    services. In 2024, there is over 900,000. Okay. That is a 39.7
    percent increase in participants and yet you have an 81.4
    percent increase in your employees that are servicing this
    stuff with a 5 percent increase in funding. The math is not
    mathing, sir. You have bloated your bureaucracy and actually
    shrunk the ability of veterans to get education benefits. You
    have done that.
        I know you have been in office for a week and there is a
    reason your predecessor is not longer sitting there because of
    rampant failure. It is just bad. You said you are taking
    immediate action to correct these things What is a specific
    example of an immediate action that you have taken, Mr. Smith,
    to correct these deficiencies, just one?
        Mr. Smith. Sir, I am very interested in improving----
        Mr. Van Orden. All right. Stop. Let us, no, you are, no.
    That is not it. No. I, maybe you are not catching on. We are
    not going to do this any longer. I will be in office for at
    least a year and a half or whatever it is left, and I do not
    care. I honest to God do not care if I am sitting in this chair
    two years from now. I do care if you are sitting in that chair
    two minutes from now. You have mentioned accountability four
    times in your oral testimony. What does accountability mean to
    you?
        Mr. Smith. Sir, we need to improve our ability to manage
    risk, the schedule scope and cost.
        Mr. Van Orden. Are you aware of a single bureaucrat in the
    VA being fired for poor performance, one, are you aware of one?
        Mr. Smith. There are individuals that are terminated, sir.
    I cannot begin to tell you the reason.
        Mr. Van Orden. Yes. How many guys have been laid or gals
    who have been laid off for abject failure? Yes.
        Mr. Smith. I would have to get some information from our HR
    providers.
        Mr. Van Orden. Well please do. As a Member of Congress it
    is not my job to fire people in the executive branch. That is
    just not my function. I am asking you if you are aware of
    people that have been terminated for poor performance, and that
    is just----
        Mr. Smith. Yes.
        Mr. Van Orden. That is not my job. Okay. Good. I would like
    to correct, Mr. Hamadeh. It did not blow up from $460 million
    to $960 million. It actually started, the bid that you guys put
    in was $25 million. $25 million when you could have just used
    the Pell Grant process to do the electronic G.I. Bill, but you
    put in a bid for $25 million that is now $960 million, and I
    still do not think it is going to be done in time. My time has
    expired. I do not know, Mr. Pappas would like to do a second-
    round question, so the chair now recognizes Mr. Pappas for 5
    minutes.
        Mr. Pappas. Thank you. I want to ask about implementation
    of a provision that was included in the Dole Act. I helped
    introduce a bipartisan bill. It is the Veteran Improvement
    Commercial Driver's License Act. This was included in Dole Act.
    It is based on the notion that we should be cutting red tape to
    ease veterans transition into the civilian workforce and help
    them find long term secure employment.
        I am wondering if VA has established the criteria and
    reporting requirements for commercial driver training programs
    that are seeking quicker approvals to open a new location and
    how VA will track Commercial Driver's License (CDL) schools
    performance? If you can fill in some detail there, that would
    be helpful?
        Mr. Smith. Yes. I can tell you that we are still working to
    implement that, and it is on track for March 2025, and I would
    like Mr. Ruhlman to give some more details.
        Mr. Ruhlman. Yes, we are working with our state approving
    agency partners in order to develop everything that we do need
    to implement that program, and we are working to develop some
    measurable requirements for really all of these provisions
    especially VET TEC because of what you quoted was actually
    specifically almost verbatim from a GAO report and that is
    something that we are trying to meet those requirements for the
    various provisions of the Dole Act.
        Mr. Pappas. Okay. Because this is job training, how will VA
    keep track of employment outcomes, and will VA take steps to
    hold CDL schools that have low outcomes accountable in some
    way?
        Mr. Ruhlman. Yes, we are focusing certainly on veteran
    outcomes. That is something that we have been working on over
    the past few years to get a better gauge of not only graduation
    but employment, income, and seeing really how long they are in
    the job as well. That is certainly something that we want to do
    with trucking programs as well.
        I know as far as actions to be taken if a threshold is not
    met, the authority to suspend or withdraw approval is generally
    held by our state approving agency partners which is why we
    would want to include them in the conversation but I think that
    we all have broad agreement that we only want to send veterans
    to schools that have good positive outcomes for veterans and we
    will continue to work with them as we roll this out have all
    the policies in place by March 30th, and then move out in the
    360 cadence as required by statute after that.
        Mr. Pappas. Okay. I really appreciate those comments. Thank
    you very much. Mr. Smith, if I could turn back to you.
        Committee staff traveled to Muskogee recently. As you know
    VA employee 1,500 individuals there that receive calls for
    education service. Wondering if you can build up on your
    testimony and give us the current performance of that site. How
    are we doing?
        Mr. Smith. Yes, sir. I can tell you that they are working
    diligently to process all of their fall enrollments. I think
    that their performance is really solid given the fact that they
    are working through a high number of Rudisill inspired claims.
        Mr. Pappas. Is everyone onsite and working in person or are
    some of these people remote?
        Mr. Smith. They are not remote, but they are still, they
    have until the 28th of April to return to the office.
        Mr. Pappas. Can you give us some more information because
    we have heard these concerns not just with this facility but
    with other VA facilities, just about the status of workspace.
    Is there enough workspace for 1,500 people to be in the office
    in person?
        Mr. Smith. I am not aware of the details in Muskogee, but I
    could certainly find that out for you?
        Mr. Pappas. Yes, we would like some more detail on that
    because if VA's requiring all individuals at this office to be
    in person and that could potentially result in a loss of
    productivity if we do not have adequate space for these folks
    or greater expense to be able to build out space. I am just
    wondering if VA would reconsider the decision for this
    particular facility, which seems to be operating at a high
    level of productivity that has made significant strides in
    answering calls and serving veterans?
        Mr. Smith. Understood, sir. I am certainly sure that the
    Acting Undersecretary and Secretary will consider that.
        Mr. Pappas. Well I appreciate that. I think as we move
    forward we do need to make sure that those who are experts in
    this work, who are front-line workers who talk to veterans day
    in, and day out have a voice in the process and that is one
    thing that I will continue to try to bring out through these
    hearings because I think too often we do not see those people.
    That can give us important feedback about how to improve
    processes and again how to reach that end veteran who we owe a
    great debt to. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.
        Mr. Van Orden. The gentleman yields back. Mr. Barrett, the
    chair now recognizes you for 5 minutes.
        Mr. Barrett. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Smith, Mr.
    Ruhlman, I listened to a lot of your testimony today. I brought
    this up in my meeting yesterday. I have been a Member of
    Congress now I think 38 days so there is a lot that I am
    absorbing and learning about, but I can tell you that one
    consistent denominator of all of this is that we have these
    systems, these Information Technology (IT) systems that are
    intended to be implemented that go exponentially overbudget,
    fail to deliver, veterans suffer as a result, the taxpayers do
    not get the value for the money that they have sent here. We
    sit as a panel on a committee, ask questions. We do not get
    specific answers and then the process, rinse and repeat every
    two years and the feeling is that the institutional members of
    the VA wait us out.
        There is a two term, you know the clock is running. The
    hourglass is going through, wait two more years, new faces will
    be up here, new people will be there. They will ask you the
    same questions and the process will repeat.
        I am the chairman of the technology modernization
    subcommittee. We have been looking at this electronic health
    record debacle that we have been facing. Now this digital G.I.
    Bill, these consistent problems with implementation of large-
    scale IT projects. What can you tell us to restore, number 1,
    that confidence and trust?
        I mean I was looking at your biography and, you know, I am
    an Army grunt that got elected to Congress. I have been here 38
    days. I am not an expert in human capital utilization and
    financial stewardship as you are, so help me understand how it
    is that the common denominator of all of this is that we are
    always overbudget, under delivering, and as a result of that we
    have less to invest in the services that veterans have earned
    because we are spending money on these projects that fail to
    deliver.
        Mr. Smith. Yes, sir. I appreciate your comments. I agree
    with you that that is a lot of money. There is no doubt about
    that. We are--I think generally we need to be accountable to
    delivering these IT systems. We need to make sure----
        Mr. Barrett. I would say specifically, not generally.
        Mr. Smith. Yes. We need to make sure that we are
    identifying risk early, that we are setting scope, budget, and
    deliverable schedules that match the capability of the provider
    and that we hold them accountable as well to achieve those
    objectives?
        Mr. Barrett. Why does not that happen? Like it cannot just
    be that we should do these things. We do not live in Should
    Land. We live in Real World and that has not happened and it
    does not happen. It continues to not happen.
        You know, as they say the definition of insanity is doing
    the same thing over again and expecting a different result. I
    feel like we are there, and we have done that, and we expect a
    different result, and we expect accountability, and you promise
    accountability but then we never actually see that in action.
        Did we follow, for example, the GAO's advice about how to
    implement these projects? I know they have done a lot of work
    around large-scale IT projects, and it feel like VA continues
    to disregard their recommendations and advice. Was that
    followed in this, in this instance?
        Mr. Smith. I am not certain, sir, whether they followed
    those provisions. I have not had a chance to review all of
    that. I can tell you that the Inspector General (IG) did an
    audit of our deployment of DGIB and found that we needed to
    make some improvements in creating an integrated master
    schedule, communicating better with the vendor, and ensuring
    that we are identifying early and often areas that could cause
    critical failures. I do not believe that happened before, but
    that is my commitment to you that that is where I am going.
        Mr. Barrett. What actionable steps are we going to be able
    to have, so for example, when you come to my subcommittee down
    the road, what actionable steps are we going to have by then to
    ensure that we have moved the ball forward in this regard, that
    we are actually going to stick the landing and get this thing
    done in the timeline that was promised, that we are going to,
    you know, make a turnaround and get this done in a way that we
    will actual deliver results for veterans?
        Mr. Smith. We are working right now to address the findings
    or the recommendations of IG, but that is not enough. I want to
    really underscore the need to ensure that the culture of the
    individuals that are working on this project understand this
    and understand the expectation that we should be underbudget,
    not overbudget.
        Mr. Barrett. Would you say that you have the capacity to
    dismiss people who do not share that shared value with you?
        Mr. Smith. Yes, sir.
        Mr. Barrett. You do not need any further authority from
    Congress or the executive in order to do that?
        Mr. Smith. No, sir.
        Mr. Barrett. Okay. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
        Mr. Van Orden. The gentleman yields back. I just want to,
    we did have this hearing yesterday with Mr. Barrett, and do you
    now have a schedule for the digital G.I. Bill, do you have a
    schedule, like boom, we are doing it on this day?
        Mr. Smith. My understanding is that yes, we have developed
    an integrated master schedule.
        Mr. Van Orden. Do we have the integrated master schedule?
    Anybody? You got it? Do you have one? No. Okay. If you have one
    it would be great if you shared it with us because we have to
    fund that thing. If we do not have it, and you did, and we have
    been asking for a year or so for this, that is a problem. Now,
    Mr. Smith, I understand you have been in this job for a week.
    Believe it or not you are getting some grace from this
    committee and that stops after this committee hearing. The
    Veterans Affairs Administration is responsible for blowing
    through billions of dollars to say that, to that the VA.
    Administration spends money like a drunken sailor is not
    accurate, because when drunken sailor runs out of money he goes
    back to the ship. We are not the ship any more, pal. I hope
    that is really clear with everybody here. I believe that we
    have found common ground, Mr. Pappas. We are going to approach
    the executive branch, and I think it would be, it would make
    more sense if people returned to their previous disposition
    prior to COVID. If we have folks that were working remotely at
    this call center, it is an old grocery store, if they were not
    physically located in that building then I do not know how if
    they returned to work that that would be beneficial. They are,
    you said 500, like 500 desks short and IT equipment? We will
    take that for action because that just does not make sense to
    me. I think it is pretty clear. I mean we are now into the
    Trump administration, and I speak to you the same way I did
    with people under the Biden administration, and I just do not
    care what political party you are affiliated with. I do not
    care. This make sense, it appears to make sense and so we will
    take that for action, sir. Yes. Okay.
        Mr. Pappas, do you have any closing comments?
        Mr. Pappas. Just----
        Mr. Van Orden. Oh, sorry wait. The chair now recognizes the
    ranking member for any closing----
        Mr. Pappas. Thank you.
        Mr. Van Orden.--comments he may or may not have.
        Mr. Pappas. Thank you to our witnesses and look I have
    served on this committee for six years. This is my fourth term
    now. I have served during presidents, administrations of both
    parties and I think the commitment has to be the same to
    provide the oversight that Congress is required to do. At the
    end of the day I know that everyone around this table shares
    the same commitment to our nation's veterans. We may come at it
    from different perspectives from time to time, but I really
    join you in trying to seek that common ground and trying to
    seek better outcomes for veterans. At the end of the day that
    is how our success is going to be measured here on this
    subcommittee and on the full committee. I really look forward
    to the work ahead. Thank you.
        Mr. Van Orden. The gentleman yields back. I do not really
    have closing comments other than the fact that I would like to
    thank Ranking Member Pappas and everybody for participating in
    today's hearing. I ask unanimous consent that all members have
    5 legislative days to revised and extend their remarks and
    exclude extraneous materials, and without objection so ordered,
    this hearing is now adjourned.
        [Whereupon, at 11:24 a.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.]

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                             A  P  P  E  N  D  I  X

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                        Prepared Statement of Witnesses

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                        Prepared Statement of Ken Smith

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                           Statements for the Record

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               Prepared Statement of Defense Credit Union Council

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             Document for the Record Submitted by Derrick Van Orden

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