[House Hearing, 119 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
LEVERAGING TECHNOLOGY TO STRENGTHEN
IMMIGRATION ENFORCEMENT
=======================================================================
HEARING
before the
SUBCOMMITTEE ON CYBERSECURITY, INFORMATION
TECHNOLOGY, AND GOVERNMENT INNOVATION
of the
COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT
AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
__________
MARCH 4, 2025
__________
Serial No. 119-10
__________
Printed for the use of the Committee on Oversight and Government Reform
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Available on: govinfo.gov
oversight.house.gov or
docs.house.gov
_______
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
59-602 PDF WASHINGTON : 2025
COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
JAMES COMER, Kentucky, Chairman
Jim Jordan, Ohio Gerald E. Connolly, Virginia,
Mike Turner, Ohio Ranking Minority Member
Paul Gosar, Arizona Eleanor Holmes Norton, District of
Virginia Foxx, North Carolina Columbia
Glenn Grothman, Wisconsin Stephen F. Lynch, Massachusetts
Michael Cloud, Texas Raja Krishnamoorthi, Illinois
Gary Palmer, Alabama Ro Khanna, California
Clay Higgins, Louisiana Kweisi Mfume, Maryland
Pete Sessions, Texas Shontel Brown, Ohio
Andy Biggs, Arizona Melanie Stansbury, New Mexico
Nancy Mace, South Carolina Robert Garcia, California
Pat Fallon, Texas Maxwell Frost, Florida
Byron Donalds, Florida Summer Lee, Pennsylvania
Scott Perry, Pennsylvania Greg Casar, Texas
William Timmons, South Carolina Jasmine Crockett, Texas
Tim Burchett, Tennessee Emily Randall, Washington
Marjorie Taylor Greene, Georgia Suhas Subramanyam, Virginia
Lauren Boebert, Colorado Yassamin Ansari, Arizona
Anna Paulina Luna, Florida Wesley Bell, Missouri
Nick Langworthy, New York Lateefah Simon, California
Eric Burlison, Missouri Dave Min, California
Eli Crane, Arizona Ayanna Pressley, Massachusetts
Brian Jack, Georgia Rashida Tlaib, Michigan
John McGuire, Virginia
Brandon Gill, Texas
------
Mark Marin, Staff Director
James Rust, Deputy Staff Director
Mitch Benzine, General Counsel
Lauren Lombardo, Deputy Policy Director
Raj Bharwani, Senior Professional Staff Member
Duncan Wright, Senior Professional Staff Member
Mallory Cogar, Deputy Director of Operations and Chief Clerk
Contact Number: 202-225-5074
Jamie Smith, Minority Staff Director
Contact Number: 202-225-5051
------
Subcommittee on Cybersecurity, Information Technology, and Government
Innovation
Nancy Mace, South Carolina, Chairwoman
Lauren Boebert, Colorado Shontel Brown, Ohio, Ranking
Anna Paulina Luna, Florida Minority Member
Eric Burlison, Missouri Ro Khanna, California
Eli Crane, Arizona Suhas Subramanyam, Virginia
John McGuire, Virginia Yassamin Ansari, Arizona
C O N T E N T S
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Page
Hearing held on March 4, 2025.................................... 1
Witnesses
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Mr. John Fabbricatore, Former Senior Executive and Field Office
Director, Immigration and Customs Enforcement, Enforcement
Removal Operations, Principal Consultant, The Complete Solution
Group
Oral Statement................................................... 6
Dr. Doug Gilmer, Retired Senior Law Enforcement Advisor and
Assistant Special Agent in Charge, Immigration and Customs
Enforcement, Homeland Security Investigations, President & CEO,
Resolved Strategies
Oral Statement................................................... 7
Mr. Simon Hankinson, Senior Research Fellow, Border Security and
Immigration Center, The Heritage Foundation
Oral Statement................................................... 9
Ms. Deborah Fleischaker (Minority Witness), Principal Consultant,
Blackbird Ventures LLC
Oral Statement...................................................
Written opening statements and bios are available on the U.S.
House of Representatives Document Repository at:
docs.house.gov.
Index of Documents
----------
* No additional documents were entered into the record for this
hearing.
LEVERAGING TECHNOLOGY TO STRENGTHEN
IMMIGRATION ENFORCEMENT
----------
Tuesday, March 4, 2025
U.S. House of Representatives
Committee on Oversight and Government Reform
Subcommittee on Cybersecurity, Information Technology, and Government
Innovation
Washington, D.C.
The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:04 a.m., in
room 2128, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Nancy Mace
[Chairwoman of the Subcommittee] presiding.
Presents: Representatives Mace, Boebert, Burlison, Crane,
McGuire, Brown, Khanna, Subramanyam, and Ansari.
Ms. Mace. Good morning. The Subcommittee on Cybersecurity,
Information Technology, and Government Innovation will now come
to order, and welcome everyone who is here today.
Without objection, the Chair may declare a recess at any
time.
I will now recognize myself for the purpose of making an
opening statement.
Good morning to everyone who is here today, to our
witnesses, to our guests who are here as well, important
conversation about leveraging technology to strengthen
immigration enforcement. It was last year when I was in the
Oversight Committee, and I exposed a sanctuary sheriff in the
state of South Carolina, Charleston County, South Carolina. Her
name was Kristin Graziano, and I learned that she was not
working with ICE at the time, and she was letting illegal
immigrants who were here in our country illegally--criminals
because they break the law when they come into our country as
soon as they cross that border illegally, it is a crime--but
she was allowing rapists, pedophiles, molesters, murderers out
onto the streets of South Carolina, in my district, in my
state, doing harm to women and girls.
And so, having this conversation today is more important
than ever because we have to stop this. And I will say this,
that illegal border crossings are down significantly now that
Donald Trump is President. I believe the last stat I read was
that they were down 90 percent. But anyway, when I was exposing
what my sanctuary sheriff was doing last year, my Lieutenant
Governor, Pam Evette, stood silent. My Attorney General, Alan
Wilson, stood silent. I was literally one of the only people in
South Carolina willing to stick my neck out, put my career on
the line, my reputation on the line, to make sure this kind of
thing stopped.
And so, today we are going to have this hearing about using
technology to minimize illegal immigration, to strengthen
immigration enforcement. First of all, it is well documented
the Biden Administration used technology to facilitate the
invasion of our Nation by millions of illegal aliens, the CBP
One app being just one example of this. Today's hearing will
explore how technology can help strengthen the enforcement of
our Nation's immigration laws. Cutting edge technology enhances
immigration enforcement and reduces risks for immigration
enforcement officials. From facial recognition software to data
analytics powered by artificial intelligence to GPS monitoring,
advanced technologies empower U.S. Immigration and Customs
Enforcement, or ICE, to track, apprehend, and deport illegal
aliens in our country.
And we know right now, under the leadership of Donald Trump
and the leadership of Tom Homan, that we are trying to deport
those who are here illegally as fast as we can. And I believe
we do not have enough ICE agents right now to do that. We have
got to make sure that ICE and Homeland Security have all the
resources they need to do it as quickly as possible.
Tracking illegal aliens and identifying threats to the
homeland allows ICE to more effectively enforce our Nation's
immigration laws and remove those who are unlawfully present in
the United States. Former President Biden and his Secretary of
Homeland Security, Alejandro Mayorkas, willfully and
intentionally unleashed an invasion--an invasion--of illegal
aliens into the U.S. from around the world. We had more people
crossing illegally into our country that were on the Terrorist
Watch List than ever in the history of the United States over
the last 4 years. Illegal aliens shepherded into the country by
the Biden Administration include terrorists, murderers,
rapists, pedophiles, cartel members, drug traffickers, sex
traffickers, child traffickers, human traffickers, not exactly
the kind of people you want roaming the streets of our
communities.
By systematically dismantling President Trump's policies
from his first Administration, the Biden Administration flung
the border wide open for any and all who wished to enter here
the U.S. illegally. This has led to the unlawful entry of over
10 million illegal aliens into the U.S., and nearly 2 million
``known gotaways,'' who entered the country without once being
apprehended. As of last July, there were over 646,000 illegal
aliens with additional criminal histories running around free
right here in the United States, and those are only criminal
aliens that are known to ICE officials, so the actual number is
actually statistically, probably significantly, much, much
higher.
Why is this issue important? Why must we use all means at
our disposal to identify, locate, and deport all illegal aliens
in the U.S.? It is because the heinous nature of the crimes
committed by those who enter the U.S. illegally and treat this
Nation as their own playground to get rich by selling human
beings and illegal drugs while victimizing women and children.
The most dangerous criminals include cartel organizations that
control the border, who force women into indentured servitude
or sex slavery to pay for their entry into the U.S. They
subject children to child pornography. If you speak to law
enforcement at the border, you will hear about rape trees,
where the underwear of women and girls brutally raped on their
journey to America are hung like trophies.
Ten years ago, I did not even know what fentanyl was, and
now I personally know multiple people who have died of a
fentanyl overdose. We have all heard stories also of law
enforcement who are doing investigations, who were accidentally
exposed to fentanyl, end up in the hospital very sick. They are
lucky they have not died. The Biden Administration shoulders
the blame for the record deaths of American citizens, the
record number of illegal aliens, and the record profits for
drug cartels due to fentanyl and human trafficking. And we are
talking about numbers, about the amount of money that the
cartels have made off of drug trafficking and human
trafficking, tens of billions of dollars easily north of $60 or
$70 billion. They are making money off the U.S. because we let
them.
To protect American citizens, we must undo the horrors
caused by the Biden Administration's immigration policies that
rewarded criminal illegal aliens. A core component of this is
the ability to track and monitor all illegal aliens in the
country when detention is not feasible for some reason. When
used as part of the Alternatives to Detention, or ATD program,
modern technology can be used to monitor illegal aliens within
the country and assist with proper enforcement of U.S.
immigration laws. When detention is not possible, these modern
technologies can enhance security by monitoring and tracking
illegal aliens to ensure they can be removed once a final order
of removal is in place. The Biden Administration, however,
refused to use the ATD program as intended, frequently and
prematurely removing illegal aliens from monitoring before a
final order of removal was in, allowing them to scatter
throughout the interior of our country and victimize American
citizens.
For example, at the Biden Administration's direction, one
of the illegal aliens who murdered Jocelyn Nungaray, a 12-year-
old girl from Texas, who was raped and strangled to death.
[Photo]
Ms. Mace. This is Jocelyn Nungaray. I hope we never forget
her name. We never forget her face. We never forget the horrors
she endured. She was 12 years old. The illegal who raped and
killed her had his GPS ankle monitor removed prior to
committing these horrific crimes. Jocelyn Nungaray is the face
of the horrors American women and girls are suffering at the
hands of illegals that have been let in by the Joe Biden
Administration. The Biden Administration allowed this to
happen, all while unconscionably ignoring easy-to-use and
available technologies that could have prevented the release of
illegal aliens with criminal histories in the first place.
I look forward to the testimonies of our witnesses today,
which include former ICE officials, to hear about their
firsthand experience and suggestions on how we can leverage
technology to strengthen immigration enforcement and facilitate
the mass deportations Americans overwhelmingly support. I now
yield to Ranking Member Brown for her opening statement.
Ms. Brown. Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to the
witnesses for being here today. Before I begin, I want to
highlight that Chair Mace and my Federal Contractor
Cybersecurity Vulnerability Reduction Act, which would close a
critical loophole in Federal Cybersecurity standards, passed
the House yesterday. So, Chairwoman Mace, I am looking forward
to continuing to work together on these----
Ms. Mace. Yes, ma'am.
Ms. Brown. [continuing.] Important issues.
Ms. Mace. Thank you.
Ms. Brown. Now moving to the topic of today's hearing.
Immigration has remained a hot button issue across both
Republican and Democratic administrations. Congress--I repeat
Congress--has the authority, not the President, to enact a
lasting solution. I take this responsibility seriously as well
as our country's long history of accepting immigrants from all
over the world, making us who we are today. But when I see the
dangerous and cruel way that the current President treats and
talks about immigrants, I know I am not dealing with a serious
and solution-driven administration. We all want our cities to
be safe. We all want to work with law enforcement and community
members to prevent crime. No one wants dangerous criminals,
terrorists, or illicit drugs coming in through our borders, but
propagating lies and misplaced fear are not going to address
the issue. In fact, it risks making the problem worse.
Real change starts with real solutions. Last year, the
Senate crafted a comprehensive and bipartisan immigration
reform, which presented a real opportunity to move the ball
forward on this critical issue for the first time in a decade.
In fact, the bill would have helped to address the fentanyl
crisis by providing new scanning technologies at ports of entry
and increasing staffing for customs agents. But what happened?
Then Presidential candidate, Donald Trump, blew up the bill
because he wanted to run on an anti-immigration rhetoric
instead of fixing the problem.
Instead of seeking to score political points, we should
work on a bipartisan basis to find real solutions to our broken
immigration system. That means modernizing our border
infrastructure, reforming the asylum process, and ensuring a
fair and efficient way to resettle asylum seekers across the
country. To prevent abuse of the asylum system, we must invest
in programs that speed up processing times, properly fund
immigration courts, and ensure fair adjudications. And let us
be clear: creating a pathway to citizenship--Dreamers, PS
holders, farmworkers, and so many others--is not just the right
thing to do. It strengthens our economy and provides much-
needed relief to communities that have earned it.
And yes, technology has a real role to play here, and
Congress recognizes that. The 2024 spending bill signed into
law by President Biden included a more than 20-percent increase
in funding to purchase and deploy next-generation technology,
like surveillance towers, tunnel detection technology, and
mobile surveillance technology. This funding is already helping
to strengthen border security, prevent the flow of fentanyl,
and combat human trafficking.
During President Trump's first term, his Department of
Homeland Security released a mobile application called CBP One
that allowed immigrants to fill out much of the necessary
paperwork before they reach the border. That seemed like a good
idea, except the app frequently malfunctioned and often failed
to recognize faces with darker complexions. The Biden
Administration ran with the idea and turned this broken app
into a legitimate tool to provide a legal pathway for those
escaping violence and persecution to come to America for a
better life. That is leveraging technology to solve our border
crisis. While the revamped CBP One app was not perfect, the app
helped more than 1 million immigrants--more than 1 million
immigrants--legally enter the United States to become
productive and valued members of our communities.
And it deterred illegal border crossings, that is, until
the Trump Administration abruptly shut it down last month as
part of his day one, sign first, and ask later executive order
rampage. So, what have we seen instead in the first 2 weeks of
the Trump Administration? An attempt to terrorize immigrant
families. On his first day in office, Trump signed an executive
order authorizing Immigrations and Custom Enforcement, also
known as ICE, to raid schools, churches, and hospitals with
little to no oversight or plan. The Trump Administration should
instead be focusing on the responsible and humane use of
technology to address border security when it makes sense. Any
technology to address border security must be done with strong
oversight and safeguards to protect privacy, civil rights, and
civil liberties. These concerns must always be at the forefront
of any conversation on the use of technology, and especially
artificial intelligence, across Federal Government.
So, I hope that we can have a productive conversation today
about the opportunities that come from modern solutions and how
we can implement those solutions while safeguarding against
abuse.
Ms. Mace. Thank you so much. I am pleased to now introduce
our witnesses for today's hearing. Our first witness is Mr.
John Fabbricatore, former Senior Executive and Field Office
Director for Enforcement Removal Operations at ICE. Our second
witness is Dr. Doug Gilmer, retired Senior Law Enforcement
Advisor and Special Agent in Charge for Homeland Security
Investigations at ICE. Our third witness is Mr. Simon
Hankinson, Senior Research Fellow for the Border Security and
Immigration Center at the Heritage Foundation, and our fourth
witness is Ms. Deborah Fleischaker, Principal Consultant at
Blackbird Ventures, LLC. Welcome, everyone. We are pleased to
have you this morning.
Pursuant to Committee Rule 9(g), the witnesses, if you will
please stand and raise your right hands.
Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you are
about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
the truth, so help you God?
[A chorus of ayes.]
Ms. Mace. Let the record show the witnesses all answered in
the affirmative. Thank you. We appreciate all of you being here
today and look forward to your testimony.
Let me remind the witnesses that we have read your written
statements, and they will appear in full in the hearing record.
Please limit your oral statements to 5 minutes. Now, as a
reminder, please press the button on the microphone in front of
you so that it is on and the Members up here can hear you. When
you begin to speak, the light in front of you will turn green.
After 4 minutes, the light will turn yellow, and when the red
light comes on, your 5 minutes has expired, and I will ask you
to conclude your remarks.
I will now recognize, Mr. Fabbricatore, to please begin
your opening statement.
STATEMENT OF JOHN FABBRICATORE
FORMER SENIOR EXECUTIVE AND FIELD OFFICE DIRECTOR
IMMIGRATION AND CUSTOMS ENFORCEMENT
ENFORCEMENT REMOVAL OPERATIONS
AND PRINCIPAL CONSULTANT
THE COMPLETE SOLUTION GROUP
Mr. Fabbricatore. Good morning, Chairwoman Mace, Ranking
Member Brown, and distinguished Members. Thank you for the
opportunity to speak with you today on the critical topic of
leveraging technology to strengthen immigration enforcement.
This issue is at the heart of national security, impacting us
at every level from the border to interior enforcement. Border
security and immigration enforcement are vital pillars of our
Nation's safety and security, yet sanctuary states and cities
often obstruct interior enforcement by cutting off ICE from
essential data systems. This lack of cooperation, combined with
outdated data infrastructure, leaves us vulnerable. We face
mounting challenges, such as human trafficking, violent illegal
alien gang activity, drug smuggling, and the influx of lethal
substances like fentanyl. Tackling these issues demands
innovation, strategic thinking, and integration of cutting-edge
technology into our operations.
With over 30 years of Federal law enforcement experience,
much of it spent on immigration enforcement, I am convinced
that we will continue to face significant vulnerabilities
without adopting advanced technological solutions and
unconventional strategies. Technology must go beyond the
borders, reaching interior enforcement by integrating advanced
investigative tools into field operations. Streamlined data
sharing across agencies, modernized communication systems, and
increased funding for technology deployment are essential to
improving efficiency, accuracy, and coordination.
In the last 4 years, sanctuary jurisdictions have further
exacerbated these challenges by denying access to critical data
sources, such as DMV records. These jurisdictions allow barely
vetted individuals to obtain driver's licenses while blocking
ICE agents from accessing this information. The inability to
retrieve such records undermines our ability to protect the
Nation effectively. Information sharing is not optional. It is
fundamental to actionable intelligence, analytics, and a
unified response to today's threats. For example, in the past,
my team used tools like the Eagle Direct Identification
Environment, or simply called EDDIE, a mobile system that links
portable fingerprint readers to ICE data bases via smartphones.
This tool allowed my team to identify heroin dealers in Denver
who falsely claimed to be U.S. citizens but were, in fact,
Honduran nationals. Quick access to data base information
enabled us to remove these dangerous individuals from the
community.
However, the effectiveness of the tool depends on the
quality and integration of the data in our systems, a glaring
issue that underscores the urgent need for modernization. The
time to act is now. We need a new data platform that are agile,
robust, and equipped with advanced machine learning and cloud-
native capabilities. These systems can reveal unseen
relationships, identify patterns, and provide actionable
insights, giving agents the tools for target and apprehend with
precision. A significant focus must also be placed on
integrating case management systems that track operations
through the enforcement lifecycle. Officers should be spending
their time on the streets safeguarding our communities, not
stuck behind desks wrestling with disconnected, antiquated data
bases.
I have seen the consequences of a fragmented approach.
After 9/11, the whole-of-government strategy for information
sharing proved successful. However, over time, we have
regressed into siloed agencies that are hesitant to
collaborate. This reluctance has led to serious national
security gaps, evidenced by what occurred under the last
administration: the rampant flow of illegal drugs, like heroin,
methamphetamine, and fentanyl, across our borders and a
persistent prevalence of human trafficking operations.
A unified response is nonnegotiable. ICE must have real-
time data sharing capabilities with Federal and state agencies
to increase efficiency and improve targeting. Emerging
technologies from the private sector also hold enormous
potential to revolutionize immigration enforcement. By
leveraging automation software for high-volume targeting,
building advanced analytics platforms, and integrating working
leads management systems, we can maximize productivity and
enable officers to focus on their primary mission: stopping
national security threats, apprehending criminal aliens, and
enforcing the immigration law.
The threats we face are not static. They are dynamic,
interconnected, and constantly evolving. To address these
multifaceted challenges, we must adopt proactive, technology-
driven solutions. This is not simply an operational necessity.
It is a moral imperative. If we are to enforce immigration law,
eradicate fentanyl, disrupt human and sex trafficking
operations, and ensure the safety of our Nation, Congress must
prioritize investment in technology and expertise. By working
together, we can create immigration enforcement framework that
is responsive, efficient, and effective.
Thank you once again, and I look forward to your questions
and working alongside you to safeguard the future of our
Nation.
Ms. Mace. Thank you. I will now recognize Dr. Gilmer to
please begin his opening statement.
STATEMENT OF DR. DOUG GILMER
RETIRED SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ADVISOR
AND ASSISTANT SPECIAL AGENT IN CHARGE
IMMIGRATION AND CUSTOMS ENFORCEMENT
HOMELAND SECURITY INVESTIGATIONS
AND PRESIDENT AND CEO
RESOLVED STRATEGIES
Mr. Gilmer. Good morning, Chairwoman Mace, Ranking Member
Brown, Members of the Subcommittee. Thank you for this
opportunity. I am Dr. Doug Gilmer. I am a 35-year veteran of
law enforcement with the majority of that time spent with ICE
HSI. My career has focused primarily on two areas: national
security and human trafficking. I have received a National
Intelligence Award from the DNI for Intelligence Integration
and also recently was presented the William Wilberforce
Lifetime Achievement Award for my role in helping to counter
human trafficking globally. I retired from HSI in August 2024
where, in my last role, I served at the DHS Center for
Countering Human Trafficking.
There is an interconnectedness between illegal immigration,
transnational and cross-border crime, drug and human smuggling,
human trafficking, illicit finance, et cetera. Faced with an
enormous problem today, and with the countless numbers of
people who were allowed to enter the U.S. during the last
Administration, many of whom saw the opportunity they were
given as license to engage in criminal activity, law
enforcement needs help to combat these public safety threats.
If we first identify its intended outcomes, technology can aid
in targeting threats, identifying trends, patterns, identifying
victims, and analyzing vast amounts of data quickly, allowing
for a faster, more efficient law enforcement response while
also protecting personally identifying information. Technology
can improve productivity, mitigate risks, improve morale, and
reduce fatigue.
The government is often hampered by its ability to
effectively integrate the latest technology, and, at times, has
ineffectively used technology in ways that impeded
investigative efforts. When the previous Administration took
office, a moratorium on immigration arrests was almost
immediately put in place. While this dramatically impacted ICE
ERO in doing their job, it also impacted HSI. The answer was to
create a computer application by which ICE personnel had to
seek permission to make an arrest. The online form was then
routed through the chain of command to executive leadership for
adjudication based on established protocols. This is an example
of an inefficient use of technology to solve a problem that did
not need solving.
There have been technology successes, however. The DHS
Center for Countering Human Trafficking recently completed a
technology upgrade to assist in the issuance of Continued
Presence, an immigration benefit provided to foreign nationals
in the U.S. believed to be victims of human trafficking. Once,
this was a process that could take well over a year to
adjudicate. Today, the CCHT has been able to digitize that
process and reduce processing times down to as little as 3
weeks while adding additional anti-fraud measures.
Standing in the way of onboarding third-party applications,
however, are the current acquisition requirements and the
inability to onboard safe and secure technology quickly
impacting public safety. The time it takes to acquire
technology and integrate it means that by the time it is
onboarded, we have missed opportunity, and the solution can be
outdated. Often when a technology is acquired, it is siloed in
a particular agency, component, or division rather than scaled
to provide solutions for the general workforce.
Sometimes the issue is a matter of acquisition priority.
For instance, in my last field assignment, we only had about
five EDDIE machines for HSI personnel statewide. As John
described the EDDIE machine, this tool not only helps in
enforcing immigration law, but it saves time. It aids in
enforcement prioritization, reduces the chance of error, and
also helps law enforcement rapidly identify suspects and
mitigate threats to safety. In the absence of our own
technology to solve crimes, we have often had to rely on NGOs
and state and local law enforcement agencies who routinely have
better technology. Not only is this time consuming, but the
ability to do so relies solely on personal relationships, and
it places an additional burden on those groups to assist.
In some cases, technology and processes are already in
place but are not scaled to meet contemporary requirements. In
some cases, we own the technology but are not allowed to use it
out of privacy concern. Facial and pattern recognition
technology is one such tool with tremendous potential for
solving crimes and recovering victims of exploitative crime.
However, the restrictions placed on its use are so tightly
controlled, it is only used in a small percentage of cases.
Recurrent vetting and targeting are other examples of
underutilized technology. The best technology, however, is
useless if the technology itself and or the evidence or data it
produces remains in silos. That remains one of the biggest
detriments to law enforcement: the lack of a collaborative
data-sharing environment. When technology and data are siloed,
are not easily retrieved or accessible, we lose critical time
and miss information relevant to an investigation.
In conclusion, I am proud of my service with ICE, HSI, and
of my colleagues there today. I believe ICE, though under
resourced for its vast mission, could be the greatest value
proposition in Federal law enforcement, and if properly
resourced, could do far more good. There is not a more nimble
and responsive Federal law enforcement agency in the Federal
Government, none that work harder to pursue criminals and
criminal organizations and are more committed to advocating for
and serving the victims of the crimes they investigate. Thank
you.
Ms. Mace. Thank you. I will now recognize Mr. Hankinson for
opening remarks.
STATEMENT OF MR. SIMON HANKINSON
SENIOR RESEARCH FELLOW
BORDER SECURITY AND IMMIGRATION CENTER
THE HERITAGE FOUNDATION
Mr. Hankinson. Chairwoman Mace, Ranking Member Brown,
Members of the Committee, thank you for inviting me today. I am
a fellow at the Heritage Foundation, but the views I express
today are my own.
DHS is required by law to detain all aliens arriving
illegally in the U.S. throughout their entire immigration
proceedings. Nonetheless, over the past 4 years, the Biden
Administration released and paroled millions of them and let
them go wherever they wanted, with no easy way for ICE to find
them. Mass release of unknown aliens is a national security and
community safety risk. There is no real vetting of aliens
released or paroled. Unless a foreign national has a record
with U.S. agencies, DHS is flying blind. And even if U.S.
agents request information on an alien, many countries will not
or cannot give it, so DHS has likely released thousands of
aliens with criminal records in their home countries, and if we
let them go with a promise to show up in court in future, it
does stand to reason that we should know where they are.
Most released and paroled aliens are economic migrants who
will not qualify for asylum, but only a small percentage of
aliens ordered deported are ever actually removed. Alternatives
to Detention, or ATD, was started in 2004 to increase
compliance with court attendance and removal. ICE contracts to
track aliens using facial recognition, voice ID, or GPS
monitors, but to work, ATD has to be used widely and wisely.
There are around 7.5 million aliens on ICE's non-detained
docket, of whom, only about 184,000 are tracked using ATD, and
ICE releases the majority of aliens from ATD long before their
cases are over. A study in 2020 showed that 79 percent of ATD
participants were unenrolled before their cases were over, and
worse, for those that did stay in the program for their entire
case lifetime, 85 percent absconded from ATD.
ICE says, ``ATD enables aliens to remain in their
communities, contributing to their families and community
organizations. That is a benefit to aliens, but what about the
risk to Americans?'' From 2004 to 2020, there were 21,000
criminal charges or convictions recorded among the aliens in
the ATD program, and in the Biden years, here are just a few
aliens who were on GPS monitoring, which is the best level of
ATD, yet victimized American citizens or legal immigrants.
We have already discussed the sad case of Jocelyn Nungaray,
but in January 2025, Jefferson Ubilla-Delgado was arrested in
Chicago for the murder of George Levin. He had entered the U.S.
illegally, was released with a notice to appear and a GPS ankle
monitor. In September 2024, Estefania Primera, also known as La
Barbie, was arrested in El Paso, Texas. She was a member of the
Tren de Aragua gang and accused of operating a massive sex
trafficking ring. She was also released at the border with a
GPS ankle monitor, but she took it off. And in February 2024,
Diego Ibarra, the brother of Laken Riley's murderer, Jose
Ibarra, was released with a GPS ankle monitor, but he cut it
off and moved from Colorado to Georgia and lived there without
molestation.
ICE ERO, Enforcement and Removal Operations, has limited
staff, and many local law enforcement agencies refuse to
cooperate with their detainers. They do not routinely pursue
absconders and track down for arrest the highest-risk cases.
There are roughly 430,000 aliens on the non-detained docket who
have been convicted of crimes, but ICE's target in 2024 to
remove them was only 29,389. And to make it worse, under the
Biden Administration, ICE resources were diverted from the
mission, which is enforcement, to providing social services.
So, detaining every alien who crosses into the U.S. illegally
is the ideal situation, but if we cannot do that, let us at
least try to keep track of them.
With emerging facial recognition, artificial intelligence,
and other technology, keeping track of aliens is getting easier
and cheaper. ICE should aim to have 100 percent of non-detained
aliens doing frequent check-ins. Congress should impose clear
penalties for failure to check in with ICE. For example, it
should be a be a felony for an alien to remove their GPS
monitor. ICE should turn on GPS tracking through the SmartLINK
application. They could use automated case analysis to assess
the risks for ATD. We know from European data that rates of
criminal activity differ enormously based on national origin
and other factors, and ICE could collect that information,
along with criminal records from aliens for all Federal, state,
and local arrests. It is unacceptable to have millions of
foreign nationals in the midst of deportation proceedings and
not know where they are.
Thank you for inviting me to testify, and I welcome your
questions.
Ms. Mace. Thank you. I now recognize Ms. Fleischaker for 5
minutes.
STATEMENT OF MS. DEBORAH FLEISCHAKER (MINORITY WITNESS)
PRINCIPAL CONSULTANT
BLACKBIRD VENTURES LLC
Ms. Fleischaker. Chairwoman Mace, Ranking Member Brown, and
Members of the Subcommittee, thank you for inviting me to
participate in today's hearing. My name is Deborah Fleischaker,
and I am currently the Principal Consultant at Blackbird
Ventures. Previously, however, I spent almost 14 years at the
U.S. Department of Homeland Security, including over 10 years
as a career civil servant. Over 2 of my years at DHS were spent
at U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement, ICE, first as the
Assistant Director in charge of Regulatory Affairs and Policy,
and then a year as the Acting Chief of Staff of the Agency.
Following my time at ICE, I moved back to DHS and finished my
government career as the Department's Executive Secretary and
Acting Chief Privacy Officer.
I want to start my testimony by clearly stating the
operational challenges in increasing immigration enforcement,
including where technology can help ameliorate those challenges
and where it does not play a role. First, immigration
enforcement, including deporting people ordered removed from
this country, is hard. There is a tendency to talk about
immigration enforcement as a matter of will, and this
obfuscates the real material limiting factors on increasing
immigration enforcement.
For example, Axios reported yesterday that removals and
arrests during the Trump Administration are lower than the
daily averages in Fiscal Year 2024. This happened despite high-
profile immigration enforcement actions by the new
Administration, including the use of Federal law enforcement
and defense personnel, assets, and money. The only operational
statistic that has increased during the first part of the Trump
Administration has been the total detained population, the
increase of which is driven by the increased detention rates of
people with no criminal record. I do not think anyone here
would argue that the Trump Administration has less of a will to
enforce immigration law, yet the operational outputs are
declining because of the material limits to immigration
enforcement.
Second, technology cannot address all the limiting factors
to increasing removals. The immigration lifecycle is long and
complicated. The ultimate consequence in that lifecycle--
removal--requires the cooperation of other countries. ICE
cannot remove a person unless they have a place to remove them,
travel documents, and a seat on an airplane or a bus.
Technology can make some of this process more efficient, but it
does not impact the willingness of other countries to accept
removals.
Third, I would like to talk about some of the success that
ICE has had using technology to increase immigration
enforcement. These initiatives are instructive in how ICE can
use technology to better effect its mission. First, the ICE
check-in app. In late 2024, ICE deployed a check-in app that
allows certain people on its non-detained docket to perform
their mandatory check-ins with an ICE officer using their
phones. The check-in app should allow ICE to better manage its
non-detained docket, relieve impacts on the limited physical
space at ICE field offices and allow ICE officers more time to
focus on noncitizens who are true public safety threats. ICE is
still evaluating the effectiveness of the check-in app, but
these are the types of efficiencies that can free up ICE
officers from largely administrative tasks.
Next one is Family Expedited Removal Management, or FERM.
Before September 2021, ICE used family residential centers to
detain family units. These FRCs were expensive and resulted in
relatively few removals. ICE began using ATD technology,
including geolocation on heads of households, to move family
units through the immigration enforcement lifecycle. This new
processing pathway increased removals of family units in 2024
at a fraction of the cost of the former FRCs.
ICE already has access to vast amounts of data, but the
officers need help turning it into prioritized, actionable
leads. ICE has full access to information about noncitizens
booked into prisons and jails throughout the country through
routine data sharing. This access is called interoperability,
formerly Secure Communities, and has been in place without
interruption since 2017. ICE also has access to information-
sharing data bases, including state DMV data bases, U.S.
National Crime Information Center, and a variety of gang data
bases. Access to additional data is not the limiting factor in
ICE's immigration enforcement mission. All of its access
already provides vast troves of information. ICE does not need
additional data to do its job, but it does need help analyzing,
sorting, and prioritizing the data to which it already has
access.
Technology can and should help ICE focus on public safety
and national security threats instead of people who happen to
be in the wrong place at the wrong time. This sort of
technology assistance would support the ICE workforce, achieve
greater efficiency, enhance compliance, and reduce costs by
providing enhanced case oversight, intelligent decision
support, and streamlined check-ins and reporting for the non-
detained population.
Thank you for the opportunity to testify on this important
topic. I would be happy to answer any questions you might have.
Ms. Mace. Thank you. I will now recognize myself for 5
minutes of questions.
A couple of weeks ago, I went on my first ICE raid, and I
got to see ICE and Homeland Security and other agencies and
agents come together, different field offices come together, to
find this guy who a week prior had, like, a brick of fentanyl,
or a portion of a brick, enough to kill a thousand people. It
was a lot, but one of the things that I learned there was that
in the Biden Administration, those agencies were not actually
able to work together. They were not allowed to do that, work
together to deport those who are here illegally, and I learned
a lot during that.
But, Dr. Gilmer, I want to ask you my first question.
Something struck me in your testimony this morning. You are
talking about restrictions on data. Can you talk a little bit
more about that, some examples? Like, I guess it was maybe
biometric data, there were restrictions on data you can utilize
or----
Mr. Gilmer. Yes. So, we have advanced technologies, facial
recognition technology, pattern-matching technology that could
be used to solve a vast array of crime and can be used to
identify victims of crime, especially minor victims of child
sexual abuse material, human trafficking victims, that type of
thing, who often live in the shadows, right? But that
technology is so tightly controlled out of fear of privacy,
that it is only used in a very small percentage of cases. There
has been a lot of fear that has been allowed to grow around
that technology, I think, often by people who do not really
understand the technology and do not understand the fact that
we can utilize that technology, while also putting in proper
safeguards to protect, you know, privacy, ethics, and civil
rights.
Ms. Mace. And some examples of silos that you mentioned.
Mr. Gilmer. Again, a lot of that technology is siloed into
different components or divisions. It is not rolled out through
an enterprise solution to the Agency, different components
within DHS. Our systems do not talk to each other. I mean, we
have a hard enough time talking between HSI and ERO, between
our systems, much less bringing in CBP, TSA, Border Patrol, and
when that data is siloed within those particular components, it
is very easy to miss things because you cannot access the data
and operationalize that data.
Ms. Mace. And then my next question is really for everyone.
Can you speak to how the Biden Administration used technology
to facilitate the invasion of illegal aliens into the country?
Mr. Fabbricatore. Yes, ma'am. For one, CBP One app, I
believe, was definitely misused by the Biden Administration to
allow people to come in, and that was one technology that was
developed out of something that it should not have been used
for. I think it was a go-around around Congress to allow people
to enter the United States. And we have seen a lot of those
cases that have entered on the CBP One app show up as criminal
aliens, you know, in the arrests that we have made.
Ms. Mace. How is the app used?
Mr. Fabbricatore. How is it used?
Ms. Mace. Yes, how is it used to do that?
Mr. Fabbricatore. Well, what we have seen, especially the
fraud from that, is that the cartels were actually using it
down in Mexico and having people sign up through them to then
get on the CBP One app and get around, you know, being able to
go through. So, the cartels were actually making money off of
the CBP One app.
Ms. Mace. That is insane. Dr. Gilmer.
Mr. Gilmer. Yes, I echo everything that that my counterpart
just said. I do not have as much experience with the CBP One
app particularly because my focus was with HSI and primarily on
criminal investigations, but even within HSI, we saw the misuse
of the CBP One app by those subjects that we did encounter,
oftentimes subjects of criminal investigations.
Ms. Mace. The cartels----
Mr. Gilmer. The cartels.
Ms. Mace. [continuing.] Using CB One app to get people into
this country illegally, and we know this. We know this, and we
allowed it to happen. Mr. Hankinson.
Mr. Hankinson. Yes. In terms of numbers, nothing is more
extreme than CBP One. There were also the programs for specific
countries, which obviously had to use technology to enroll
people in the first place. There was some diversion of ICE
money to programs like the Case Management Pilot Program and
the Young Adult Case Management Program, I think it was, that
were essentially providing social services instead of
enforcement operations. And I am sure that had to be
facilitated by the use of the technology that they had.
Ms. Mace. I am certain that they did. Thank you. I will now
yield 5 minutes to Representative Brown.
Ms. Brown. Thank you, Madam Chair. When strong privacy,
civil rights, and civil liberties protections are in place,
technology can be a critical tool in immigration enforcement.
For example, the Biden Administration installed new technology
at select locations along the Southern border that quickly
screens commercial cargo coming into the United States for
illegal contraband. These nonintrusive inspection capabilities
keep commerce flowing into the United States while successfully
reducing drug and human trafficking. Ms. Fleischaker, in your
experience, what role does technology play in keeping our
border secure, and what do you see are some areas of
opportunity?
Ms. Fleischaker. I think you just pointed out one area
where technology has helped keep our borders secure. I think
that we should be using technology to make the process work as
efficiently and effectively as we can. I think there are a lot
of examples that I was a part of where technology was used to
improve the process. I gave a couple during my testimony,
including the ICE check-in app to help the non-detained
population, and FERM, which really increased the number of
family removals without the cost and burden of family
detention.
Ms. Brown. Thank you. And so much of the immigration
conversation is focused on immigrants coming to the United
States the right way, but it is not easy for people to enter
through a legal pathway because our immigration system has not
kept up with the demands of the modern world. This is why the
Biden Administration used the CBP One mobile application to
make border crossings more efficient and provide guidance to
individuals seeking asylum, people crossing the Southwest
border illegally to request asylum. Once it went into effect,
it was the only way for people to get an appointment to request
asylum. So, Ms. Fleischaker, how can technology like CBP One
make legal immigration pathways more accessible?
Ms. Fleischaker. I am not going to argue that we cannot
improve the technologies that we use. I think that that should
be a constant and ongoing effort. I have no argument that we
should be continuing to improve CBP One. I will say, though,
that I tend to support programs and policies that makes the
workforce's job easier. CBP One is one of those programs that
allowed Border Patrol agents to plan for and make efficient the
process of bringing people through the border when they were
seeking asylum. It allowed us to organize ourselves, and it
allowed us to plan for and appropriately staff the Border
Patrol offices because we knew who was going to be coming on
any given day. That is the kind of thing that I think is a net
positive, even when things can continue to be improved.
Ms. Brown. Thank you. So, maybe you can tell me, before CBP
One, what difficulties did asylum seekers face when they
arrived at legal ports of entry, and how can we expand the ways
that CBP One app improved the process for people arriving at
the border seeking asylum?
Ms. Fleischaker. Previously, people would queue and wait,
maybe, you know, for days or weeks, depending on the busyness
of a particular border patrol station. The CBP One app helped
bring some order to that process, which was, in my mind, a net
improvement. I think that we should be using technologies like
that to help improve the process writ large. I think that
technologies that help us sort of sift through data, process
people more quickly, improve outcomes are worth it. I will say,
from the ICE perspective, you know, Congress appropriates the
funds. Data modernization funds at ICE are often cannibalized
because for the more pressing needs such as detention or ATD,
right? So, we need those funds, ICE needs those funds, but
often those funds do not get used for the appropriated purpose
because there is more pressing, immediate needs.
Ms. Brown. Thank you. And one of the first things that
President Trump did upon taking office was discontinue the use
of CBP One and cancel all existing appointments, so can you
tell us what are some of the immediate effects that this will
have on the country's immigration challenges?
Ms. Fleischaker. So, I want to be careful. I am no longer
with the Department, so I did not get to witness exactly what
happened when the CBP One appointments were canceled, but as
people will come to the border, they will no longer have
appointments. They will no longer be prescreened and vetted,
and it, I believe, should increase confusion, time in
processing, and potential lines to get in.
Ms. Brown. Thank you. My time has expired.
Ms. Mace. Thank you. I will now recognize Representative
Boebert for 5 minutes.
Ms. Boebert. Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you so much
to our witnesses here who came to testify on border policies
and technologies.
I was excited to see President Trump put out a post, a
truth, on Truth Social, that said, ``The month of February, my
first full month in office, had the lowest number of illegal
immigrants trying to enter our country in history by far. There
were only 8,326 apprehensions of illegals by Border Patrol at
the U.S. Mexico border, all of whom were quickly ejected from
our Nation or, when necessary, prosecuted for crimes against
the United States of America. This means that very few people
came. The invasion of our country is over. In comparison, under
Joe Biden, there were 300,000 illegals crossing in 1 month, and
virtually all of them were released into our country. Thanks to
the Trump Administration policies, the border is closed to all
illegal aliens.'' ``Immigrants'' is what he what he put.
``Anyone who tries to illegally enter the U.S.A. will face
significant criminal penalties and immediate deportation.'' I
think the President Trump and his team, Secretary Noem and
border czar, Tom Homan, have done a fantastic job of turning
chaos at our southern border into control.
Mr. Fabbricatore, welcome from the great state of Colorado.
I wanted to ask you some questions about Colorado's sanctuary
policies that prevent ICE from coordinating with local law
enforcement agents and maybe how that had an impact on the Tren
de Aragua presence that we saw in Aurora.
Mr. Fabbricatore. Thank you, ma'am. So, yes, the sanctuary
policies in the state of Colorado, as you know, there have been
many that have been passed since 2013 that limit cooperation
with Immigration Customs Enforcement, and that even limits the
amount of data that ICE is allowed to get. This includes DMV
records, the state Department of Labor, so this keeps ICE from
being able to identify criminal illegal aliens easily and go
out on the street and arrest them. When you have those
limitations, that is when you are going to see an increase in
crime like we saw with Tren de Aragua over the last couple of
months because ICE just simply is not getting the data that is
necessary to be able to target these criminal illegal aliens
and remove them from the streets quickly.
Ms. Boebert. Yes, and do you believe that using modern
tracking technology would have helped secure our border and
even our cities in the state of Colorado?
Mr. Fabbricatore. It definitely would have helped. It is
something that the ERO officers need in order to be able to
facilitate making arrests quickly, which is what we want to do.
We do not want to give illegal criminal aliens an opportunity
to commit more crimes in the U.S. We want to arrest them as
quickly as we can.
Ms. Boebert. Yes. And so, with this CBP One app and
discussing improvements to the app, do you think that there is
a possibility for self-deportation, some sort of incentive to
self-deport using the app, and arrive at a location to get a
one-way ticket home?
Mr. Fabbricatore. If we can use the app to enter, we can
use that app to exit. So, absolutely, we can develop that
technology to allow people to self-deport, and that way,
families do not have to be separated.
Ms. Boebert. Right.
Mr. Fabbricatore. They can go right through the CBP One
app, they can get on the app, they can do an exit. We can have
that information readily available, and they can self-deport.
Ms. Boebert. Thank you. And, Mr. Fabbricatore, under the
failed Biden regime, how many criminal illegal aliens were able
to evade ICE apprehensions because you were all restricted from
using the right tools and technologies and authorities?
Mr. Fabbricatore. So, thousands, I mean, millions even. I
mean, we have 1.4 million on the non-detained docket of final
orders right now, which, you know, they went and saw an
immigration judge. Immigration judge said you must leave, and
they even defied an immigration judge's order, so these cases
are stacking up. It is something that needs to be taken care
of, and under this Administration, it will be.
Ms. Boebert. And, Mr. Fabbricatore, the Biden
Administration focused on reducing detention rates rather than
increasing surveillance. Hundreds of heinous acts were
committed by violent criminal aliens. Do you think that
reducing detention rates, rather than increasing surveillance,
makes our borders more or less secure?
Mr. Fabbricatore. No. We need an increased detention rate,
absolutely. I think we are at 41,000 beds right now. I know
President Trump would like to double, if not even have more, up
to 100,000 beds. This is what we need. In order to have the
deportation process be successful, we need those beds in place.
Ms. Boebert. Thank you, and I am certainly proud of the
initiative that President Trump has put forward and, like I
said, border czar, Tom Homan. And I know that you have worked
with him in the past, and I hope to see you alongside him in
the future as well, and we have Secretary Noem doing a great
job. And Mr. Fabbricatore, if you got 5 seconds that you want
to say something, it is yours.
Mr. Fabbricatore. Thank you, yes. We need this technology.
ERO needs this technology. They need the money, and they need
the beds.
Ms. Boebert. Thank you, Mr. Fabbricatore. I yield.
Ms. Mace. Thank you. Representative Ansari, you are
recognized for 5 minutes.
Ms. Ansari. Thank you, Madam Chair. I am proud to represent
Arizona's 3rd Congressional District, an incredibly diverse
community where more than 64 languages are spoken, and like
many in my district, I am the daughter of immigrants who came
to the United States for a better life. Unfortunately, the
Trump Administration continues to target families in my
district and across the country with inhumane immigration
policies, including mass deportations that are already
negatively impacting our economy with extreme backlash from
economists, as well as the business community in Arizona.
Right now, hundreds of migrants are being held in Panama
and Guantanamo Bay under brutal conditions, many of whom are
fleeing persecution and could face deadly consequences if
deported to their home countries. This includes Artemis, an
Iranian woman who converted to Christianity and would be
punished by death if she went back to Iran. I guess Christian
values get thrown out the window when it comes to asylum
seekers. These policies are unacceptable and fundamentally un-
American. We can have secure borders and also have an
immigration system based on humanity. These policies do none of
that.
Now the Trump Administration wants to expand surveillance
technology to infringe on the civil liberties of immigrants and
all of us in an effort to ramp up the horrific mass deportation
efforts. Let us be clear. This will not stop with immigrants.
If they can do this to immigrants and asylum seekers, there is
nothing stopping them from doing it to American citizens as
well. As we know, Elon Musk and DOGE are illegally accessing
Americans' private data and hacking into sensitive technology
systems like Social Security and taxpayer data, which poses a
grave national security threat.
With that, I would like to turn to my questions for Ms.
Fleischhacker. In your opinion, does ICE have the capacity to
conduct mass arrests and deportations and ramp up its use of
technology without relying on outside contractors?
Ms. Fleischaker. I think ICE has a huge reliance on outside
contractors. It has the capability of developing much of this
technology itself, but it needs the funding and time to do
that. I think that there is a very clear pipeline between ERO
and the private prison industry, that, I do not think
ultimately serves immigration enforcement, ICE or the country.
Ms. Ansari. Speaking of the pipeline between the work and
the private prison industry, there has been some talk about the
need to ramp up from the 41,000 beds. Can you talk a little bit
more about what the numbers could look like and what the
profits or, you know, benefits could be to the private prison
industry if this Administration is able to fulfill all that it
wants to do when it comes to mass deportations?
Ms. Fleischaker. Again, I am not part of the
Administration, so I cannot speak to exactly what their plans
are. Detention is very expensive. It is the largest expense in
the ERO budget, and detention beds cost a lot of money.
Congress appropriates that money. ERO has been above the
congressionally appropriated number for years, so it really is
not a matter of ERO not doing what it is being asked to do. It
has done it. ERO ICE does not have those beds. It will need to
purchase, rent, lease them mainly from private prison
companies. That is going to be an enormous funding source for
them.
Ms. Ansari. Thank you. Ms. Fleischaker, would it be
dangerous, in your view, to allow unaccountable private
security contractors to run immigration enforcement?
Ms. Fleischaker. Of course, accountability and oversight is
absolutely necessary to any contract that we would sign. As you
stated very eloquently, immigration enforcement, privacy, civil
rights, civil liberties do not need to be in opposition to one
another. They can work in concert, and it is very important
that we have the appropriate mechanisms to do that.
Ms. Ansari. And finally, are you concerned that a rapid
scaleup of detention facilities could mean that DHS cuts
corners, fails to impose appropriate guardrails, such as
vetting contractors, protecting human rights, and ensuring fair
and competitive bidding processes?
Ms. Fleischaker. Absolutely. Detention is very complicated.
The people in detention need to be provided appropriate levels
of care. When you ramp up too quickly, you end up using
facilities that do not have the staffing levels to provide that
care, do not have the capabilities of providing that care, and
people get hurt or die.
Ms. Ansari. Thank you so much. I yield back.
Ms. Mace. Thank you. I now recognize Representative
Burlison for 5 minutes.
Mr. Burlison. Thank you, Chairwoman Mace, for having this
important hearing. You know, it is really good to see that the
disaster that was Alejandro Mayorkas is gone. He is a disgrace.
I am glad he was impeached, and he will forever have a stain on
the history of the United States and the scourge that he
allowed to ensue. But he lied to us multiple times. He stood
before Members of Congress and he said the border is secure.
Well, I ask you, Mr. Fabbricatore, Dr. Gilmer, was that true?
Mr. Fabbricatore. It was absolutely not true. The border
was not secure.
Mr. Gilmer. It was not secure, and it was made less secure.
Mr. Burlison. OK. Then he went on to NPR, OK, and he had an
interview just this year in which he said that, you know, the
border is now more secure under the end of the Biden
Administration than it was in 2019. Is that true?
Mr. Fabbricatore. No, it is not true. The border is more
secure with this Administration that is in place.
Mr. Gilmer. I echo my colleague.
Mr. Burlison. OK. Then my other question is that he also
said that to truly secure the border, that really that they
were doing the most that they possibly could do as an executive
branch, that Congress had to act, and we have heard that again
and again, but the data and the facts dispute otherwise, right?
So, is Congress the only one that can make a difference, or can
the President actually make a difference?
Mr. Fabbricatore. The President can absolutely make a
difference. It is about attitude and effort. This President,
President Trump, is putting in the attitude that is needed to
say the border should be secure and he is putting in the
effort. It is something that the last Administration did not
do. They did not have that attitude. They wanted people to come
in, and they did not put any effort.
Mr. Gilmer. Again, I echo my colleague. We have laws on the
books. We have Title 8, which is our immigration law. It is the
huge volume that my colleague and I had to virtually memorize
early in our careers. While maybe it has not kept up with the
current state of time----
Mr. Burlison. It is still pretty clear.
Mr. Gilmer. It is still pretty clear, and----
Mr. Burlison. And it is still illegal.
Mr. Gilmer. Yes, and it is actually not a bad piece of
legislation. It just has not kept up with the times, and if we
were allowed to enforce those laws in the manner and spirit in
which those laws were written, we would be much more effective.
Mr. Burlison. Let me ask this. Was the CBP One app
effective, or was it a disaster?
Mr. Fabbricatore. It was a disaster in the way that they
used it. The CBP One app was not meant to be used for what it
was used for under the Biden Administration. It was supposed to
be used for bringing in goods and traffic, and other things.
The way that they used it, I believe, was an end-run around
Congress.
Mr. Burlison. OK. Is there any technology that you would
advocate for that would help, you know, ICE do its job?
Mr. Fabbricatore. There is a lot of technology that is out
there, and I think it is important that we bring this
technology forward, and we allow ICE agents to actually use
some of it to see what is the best that we would need. When we
are looking at the CBP One app and how it was used, there may
be technology within that that we could have used. It is just
how the application was actually used and what it was used for.
Mr. Burlison. I know that with the advent of AI, it may
open up some opportunities to dig deeper into people's
backgrounds and their histories.
Mr. Fabbricatore. AI is going to definitely be
groundbreaking for us, but we are always going to need that
human element because getting human intelligence out of someone
else right now is not easily done just with AI. You still need
that case agent to be able to look in the eyes of the person
that is sitting in front of them to develop that human intel.
Mr. Gilmer. I agree. Technology is never going to fully
replace humans, but there is technology out there today that we
need to learn to use better. As a matter of coincidence, right
now in Washington, DC, about five blocks from here, there are
probably about 150 of the most tech savvy, innovative tech
providers, solution providers, developers that are meeting
privately to address these very issues that we are talking
about right now. And that is where a lot of these solutions are
going to come from: the minds of private industry who can help
guide the Federal Government in a safe, secure use of
technology.
Mr. Burlison. Well, thank you, and thank you for your
service to our country. I am sorry that your Administration let
you down and let other ICE agents down, and with that, I yield.
Ms. Mace. Thank you. I will now recognize Congressman
Subramanyam for 5 minutes.
Mr. Subramanyam. Thank you. I wanted to go back to a couple
of things people have said. One was that we do not have enough
ICE agents, and, generally, you know, there is a people problem
here as well. And I would love to know, Ms. Fleischacker, you
know, recently we saw that about 400 people were fired at DHS,
and some of them were from the DHS Science and Technology
Directorate. How do you think these firings are going to
impact, you know, being able to use science and technology for
border security?
Ms. Fleischaker. I think letting civil servants who are
doing a good job go damages morale and will decrease the
effectiveness of the Agency.
Mr. Subramanyam. And could you tell us much about what the
Science and Technology Directorate does, or did you have any
experience with them?
Ms. Fleischaker. I did not work directly with the Science
and Technology Directorate. I would be happy to get back to
you.
Mr. Subramanyam. Sure. No problem.
Mr. Subramanyam. And there was also a Cybersecurity and
Infrastructure Security Agency within. Did you work with them
at all?
Ms. Fleischaker. I worked with them a little bit. They do a
lot of election security work.
Mr. Subramanyam. OK. And you know, I think, right now,
there is an effort to fire all, I guess, probationary workers
as well at DHS. Long term, if we are losing people at DHS, how
is that going to impact, you know, the morale, the ability to
address border security generally?
Ms. Fleischaker. I think it is incredibly damaging. I think
that we need to be approaching efficiency with a scalpel, not a
sledgehammer. And simply getting rid of probationary employees,
who may be excellent and may have actually been government
employees for a very long time, is not the appropriate way of
doing that.
Mr. Subramanyam. And I want to go back to the CBP One app.
Which Administration launched the CBP One app?
Ms. Fleischaker. I actually do not know where it was
originally developed. I know that under the Biden
Administration, they reworked it and launched it in the form
that people are discussing today.
Mr. Subramanyam. OK. And you mentioned the ICE check-in
app, and do the people who created that app, are they still
employed at DHS? Do you know?
Ms. Fleischaker. Many of them are, yes.
Mr. Subramanyam. Many of them, but not all of them?
Ms. Fleischaker. I----
Mr. Subramanyam. Yes.
Ms. Fleischaker. You know, it is a broad team that develops
these things, so I do not know to a person, but I know that
many, many of the leaders still are there.
Mr. Subramanyam. And you were the Chief Privacy Officer
at----
Ms. Fleischaker. I was the Acting Chief Privacy Officer at
the end of my----
Mr. Subramanyam. There has been this discussion about data
privacy and civil liberties related to some of these
technologies, how would you characterize--what are your
thoughts on that conversation?
Ms. Fleischaker. There are laws, regulations, and policies
that are in place that make clear that privacy is important.
There are processes that the Department follows to ensure that
privacy is being protected when new programs or technologies
are implemented. I think that that is an important part of
oversight and care that we can take in making sure that the
technologies and the programs that we deploy are used as we
want them to be used, and there are not unintended
consequences.
Mr. Subramanyam. Thank you. I am going to yield my time to
the Ranking Member.
Ms. Brown. I yield back. Thank you.
Ms. Mace. OK. I will now yield 5 minutes to Representative
Crane from Arizona.
Mr. Crane. Thank you, Mr. Chairwoman, for holding this
important hearing on cybersecurity, information technology, and
government innovation.
President Trump has only been back in office for 43 days,
and border encounters are down 66 percent compared with the
beginning of 2024. In February, we saw 8,326 border encounters.
That number reached 189,913 in February of last year under
Biden. Last week, single-day border apprehensions hit a 15-year
low. President Trump and our new leadership at the Homeland
Security Department are equipping Border Patrol agents and law
enforcement to do their jobs. We were told by so many people on
the right and the left just last year that the solution to our
border crisis was a bipartisan border deal. Biden and border
czar, Kamala Harris, blamed Congress for continued border
failures. Meanwhile, President Trump restored order and
security almost immediately.
I next want to take an opportunity to correct the record
real quick. My colleague, Ms. Brown, said that she was talking
about the cruel way that the President talks about immigrants.
I am pretty sure, Ms. Chairwoman, that the President actually
married an immigrant. I do not think he has a problem with
immigrants at all. What I think he has a problem with is this
last Administration that threw the border completely wide open,
let in between 10 and 15 million illegals, and some of them
unfortunately raped and murdered many Americans, and that is
what he really has a problem with. He also has a problem with
U.S. taxpayers having to foot the bill for all of it.
I recently spoke to a DA from Pinal County in my district,
who told me his police officers still have very little
information when they arrest illegal aliens on their status or
backgrounds due to poor vetting and lack of biometrics. Mr.
Gilmer, how would some of these technology tools we are not
currently using enable Border Patrol officials to stop the flow
of illegal aliens, while also assisting our law enforcement
officers?
Mr. Gilmer. I do not know that some of the technology, such
as the EDDIE machine, is necessarily going to stop illegal
crossings. If you have somebody determined enough to come
across there, they are going to find a way to come across. But
what that technology does, whether it is the EDDIE device,
whether it is facial pattern matching technology, it helps us
to rapidly identify individuals and identify where they might
be on a threat matrix. Are they a known or suspected gang
member? Are they on the terrorism watch list, for instance? Are
they a person who is already potentially the subject of an
investigation by HSI or another Federal law enforcement agency?
Being able to rapidly identify, you know, that biometric
information, which, you know, it is difficult to get biometrics
to lie, a person can tell us a story, give us a wrong name, all
day long, but I can tell you----
Mr. Crane. Thank you.
Mr. Gilmer. [continuing.] Putting an EDDIE in front of
somebody gets them to identify very quickly.
Mr. Crane. Great. Let us talk about some other technologies
then. Not only did the Biden Administration stop building the
wall, but is it not true that they also refused to put up key
technology components like sensors, lighting that was already
purchased on border wall system, Mr. Fabbricatore?
Mr. Fabbricatore. Yes, that is absolutely correct. I have
been down to the border about 8 times since I retired in 2022.
Got to speak to a lot of Border Patrol agents. Cameras are down
on the border. The technology for sensors has not been
improved, and I heard many complaints from Border Patrol
agents.
Mr. Crane. Is it true that the Biden Administration also
banned the use of DNA testing so that agents could no longer
know if children belonged to the adults they were with, or if
they were being trafficked, Mr. Fabbricatore?
Mr. Fabbricatore. Unfortunately, that is very true. When
the Biden Administration first came into office, they had
stopped the DNA testing that President Trump had put into play
in his first term, which kept us from being able to verify
whether children actually belong with the adults that they were
traveling with.
Mr. Crane. Thank you. Ms. Fleischaker, you focused a lot on
the decrease in outputs under this Administration. You cited in
your testimony that Axios reported yesterday the removals and
arrests during the Trump administration are lower than the
daily averages in averages in Fiscal Year 2024, and then you go
on to give some statistics. But is it not true, ma'am, that you
know, some of the data going down might have something to do
with the fact that the flow of illegals trying to come into the
country is down as well?
Ms. Fleischaker. I am not in the Administration. I can only
go by what is reported.
Mr. Crane. But do you know that the flow is down because
people now know that our border is secure?
Ms. Fleischaker. I mean----
Ms. Mace. Very quickly.
Ms. Fleischaker. I would state that the flow has been
decreasing for a number of months.
Mr. Crane. Thank you. I yield back.
Ms. Mace. Thank you. I will now recognize Representative
McGuire for 5 minutes.
Mr. McGuire. Thank you, Chairwoman Mace, and thank you to
our witnesses for being here today.
The American people have suffered from the Biden-Harris
Administration's failure of keeping the American people safe at
home and abroad, and especially at our Southern border. Because
time is an issue, I want to go real fast with four ``yes'' or
``no'' questions. No. 1, if you cross our border illegally, are
you a criminal?
Mr. Fabbricatore. Yes.
Mr. Gilmer. Yes.
Mr. Hankinson. Yes.
Ms. Fleischaker. It is usually considered----
Mr. McGuire. That is a yes or no.
Ms. Fleischaker. Yes.
Mr. McGuire. Thank you. No. 2, yes or no, criminals do not
care about the law.
Mr. Fabbricatore. They do not care.
Mr. Gilmer. They do not care.
Mr. Hankinson. No.
Ms. Fleischaker. I do not think I can say ``yes'' or ``no''
to that. It depends on the person.
Mr. McGuire. I see what we are working with. All right. No.
3, this statement, do you agree with it, yes or no, ``Police
are good, criminals are bad, and victims are important.''
Mr. Fabbricatore. Yes, absolutely.
Mr. Gilmer. One hundred percent, yes.
Mr. Hankinson. Yes.
Ms. Fleischaker. Again, people are complicated----
Mr. McGuire. I see what we are dealing with.
Ms. Fleischaker. [continuing.] But generally, yes.
Mr. McGuire. All right. No. 4. Last one. Trump is more
effective at securing our Southern border than the Biden
Administration. Yes or no.
Mr. Fabbricatore. Yes.
Mr. Gilmer. Yes.
Mr. Hankinson. Yes.
Ms. Fleischaker. I do not have the information to answer
that.
Mr. McGuire. Interesting. The past 4 years with Biden, our
border has been an open door, and the for the folks that
support the Biden Administration, they say that illegals have
come here for a better life, but they started off as a
criminal, and they started off breaking our law. We talked
about the 12-year-old Jocelyn earlier. We talk about Laken
Riley. These illegal aliens have been robbing, raping, and
killing the American people. And I heard one of the witnesses
talk about, hey, the Trump policies could cause people to be
hurt or die. What about the American people that have been
robbed, raped, and killed? I do not see anyone on the other
side talking about that. They tore down our border wall that
was placed specifically by our Border Patrol, where it was the
most dangerous to protect the American people, and under the
Biden Administration, they removed that wall. And I have
heard--this is a ``yes'' or ``no,'' I guess--I have heard that
we had electronics on that wall, so it was not just a steel
wall, and the Biden Administration refused to use those
electronics, and they actually tore them down. Is this
information true?
Mr. Fabbricatore. Yes.
Mr. Gilmer. That is my understanding.
Mr. Hankinson. I cannot specifically say the equipment was
taken, but I was told that there were repairs that were not
done and lights and sensors and other things were not turned
on.
Ms. Fleischaker. I did not work on the border wall. I do
not know the answer.
Mr. McGuire. Understood. So, we have the fentanyl overdose
epidemic in our country. I call it Chinese chemical warfare. It
is being produced in China, coming across the Southern border,
and poisoning and killing more Americans each year than died in
the Vietnam War. When you express your concern about people
might get hurt or die, what about those hundred thousand-plus
Americans that are killed every day? Thank God President Trump
is back in the White House, and not to mention human
trafficking and all the children that are gone missing that we
all know about. Data shows that border encounters have
decreased by 66 percent compared to January 2024. However,
again, millions of illegal aliens who were released by the
Biden Administration are still in our country.
Mr. Fabbricatore and Dr. Gilmer, as former ICE agents
working during the Biden Administration, is it fair to say that
this was the worst administration to work with regard to
enforcing immigration law in the U.S.? Please answer ``yes'' or
``no.''
Mr. Fabbricatore. Yes, it was.
Mr. McGuire. Could you provide more specific examples----
Mr. Gilmer. Yes.
Mr. McGuire. Excuse me. Can you provide more specific
examples of policies that made your job more difficult under
the Biden Administration?
Mr. Fabbricatore. Yes, for sure. You know, I retired under
the Biden Administration because of how horrible it was. I just
could not give the orders to the men and women that worked for
me that I felt were counter to protecting the United States.
One of those was just a system that they had set up where, as a
supervisor, when agents would put information in the system, it
was so tiered that we could not allow these agents out onto the
street to actually make arrests. They were limiting the arrests
that we were making.
Mr. McGuire. Dr. Gilmer, running out of time.
Mr. Gilmer. Yes. I echo my colleague. The moratorium that
was initially placed on making arrests significantly impacted
our ability. We had cases that we were attempting to assist our
state and local partners with. In one particular case, we had a
sex offender who shot his victim, and they were attempting to
obtain warrants on the subject, but we thought that we could
actually detain that person and get them off the street, but we
were not allowed to.
Mr. McGuire. These policies that we are talking about today
with the Biden Administration, they are absolutely not serious
about protecting our border or the American people at home and
abroad, and thank God we have President Trump in the White
House. I would ask both of you, Mr. Fabbricatore and Dr.
Gilmer, what tools does Congress need to give ICE to achieve
its mission?
Ms. Mace. Very quickly.
Mr. Fabbricatore. No. 1, we need the money to be able to
have more beds. We need detention space, and we need more ERO
officers out on the street and this technology as well.
Mr. Gilmer. I echo my colleague. We need the technology and
the resources, but we need the personnel to use that technology
and fulfill the mission and purpose.
Mr. McGuire. I yield. Thank you.
Ms. Mace. Thank you. In closing, I want to thank our
panelists once again for your testimony this morning. We
appreciate everyone's perspectives, experiences, and expertise
on this.
We can use technology to investigate those who are here
illegally and get them back out of the country. This issue is
really important. As I said earlier, I was recently on an ICE
raid in my hometown of Goose Creek, South Carolina. Goose
Creek, beautiful neighborhood, beautiful houses. We roll up in
there at 6 a.m. because this 18-year-old kid who came here
illegally had a brick of fentanyl on him a week before that
would kill God knows how many people in this country, and he
was affiliated allegedly with some particular gangs.
I did a ride along with the North Charleston Police
Department in Charleston, South Carolina, a couple weeks ago as
well. And I want to thank all of my local law enforcement
officers, ICE agents, Homeland Security agents, all these
people who are out there putting their lives on the line to
protect us and deport those who are here illegally. But when I
was on this ride along with local police, it was really cold
that night. I learned that even late at night, 10 p.m.,
criminals do not come out when it is cold by the way. I got to
go back when it is a little bit warmer. However, instead they
drove me down certain streets, like Stall Road in North
Charleston. That is where the Sinaloa Cartel hangs out. That is
where gang members from MS-13 hang out. Tren de Aragua is in
South Carolina. These cartel gang members, these people are
everywhere. It is not just in big cities like New York. It is
not just the Roosevelt Hotel where we are housing many of these
people. They are in Goose Creek, South Carolina. You all have
never heard of Goose Creek. It is a small town. They are
literally everywhere, and it is scary, and we have allowed this
to go on.
We had Maddie Hines, just 2 years ago, this young 4-year-
old girl from South Carolina who was hit by an illegal alien.
That guy, that criminal, that murderer, was deported under
Donald Trump and let back in under Joe Biden. Last year, the
spring of last year, a 4-month-old infant killed by an illegal
alien on the roads of Beaufort County, South Carolina, her life
stolen. That baby was stolen from the parents of an American
family who did not deserve it. No one deserves that. And we
have seen--thank God for Donald Trump, I praise the Lord above
every single day--illegal border crossings are down by over 90
percent now just because he is President and showing strength,
showing leadership, putting people like Tom Homan as border
czar to make sure this stuff does not go on anymore.
I am very passionate about women's issues, not just illegal
immigration, but I had a bill that passed on the floor of the
House a couple of weeks ago, the Violence Against Women by
Illegal Aliens Act. I am a rape survivor. I take it very
seriously. If you are here illegally and you rape a woman, you
molest a child, you murder one of us, you are gone. A hundred
and forty-five Democrats voted against that bill. It is
shameful, and we are going to work hard for the American
people, for everyone across South Carolina.
I want to thank our witnesses for everyone for being here
today. God bless you. Thank you for your service to our country
and her citizens to keep us safe, exposing the truth, exposing
the corruption, exposing what is going on here. It is
disgusting. It is shameful. People ought to be not just fired.
They need to be prosecuted, and they need to go to prison. It
needs to happen immediately.
So, with that, and without objection, all Members will have
5 legislative days within which to submit materials and to
submit additional written questions for the witnesses, which
will then be forwarded to the witnesses for their response.
If there is no further business, without objection, the
Subcommittee stands adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 11:24 a.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.]
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