[House Hearing, 119 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
RESTORING THE SBA: PUTTING MAIN STREET
AMERICA FIRST
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HEARING
BEFORE THE
SUBCOMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT,
INVESTIGATIONS, AND REGULATIONS
OF THE
COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS
UNITED STATES
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
__________
HEARING HELD
MARCH 11, 2025
__________
[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Small Business Committee Document Number 119-005
Available via the GPO Website: www.govinfo.gov
__________
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
59-421 WASHINGTON : 2025
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HOUSE COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS
ROGER WILLIAMS, Texas, Chairman
PETE STAUBER, Minnesota
DAN MEUSER, Pennsylvania
BETH VAN DUYNE, Texas
JAKE ELLZEY, Texas
MARK ALFORD, Missouri
NICK LALOTA, New York
BRAD FINSTAD, Minnesota
TONY WIED, Wisconsin
ROB BRESNAHAN, Pennsylvania
BRIAN JACK, Georgia
TROY DOWNING, Montana
KIMBERLYN KING-HINDS, Northern Marina Islands
DEREK SCHMIDT, Kansas
NYDIA VELAZQUEZ, New York, Ranking Member
MORGAN MCGARVEY, Kentucky
HILLARY SCHOLTEN, Michigan
LAMONICA MCIVER, New Jersey
GIL CISNEROS, California
KELLY MORRISON, Minnesota
GEORGE LATIMER, New York
DEREK TRAN, California
LATEEFAH SIMON, California
JOHNNY OLSZEWSKI, Maryland
HERB CONAWAY, New Jersey
MAGGIE GOODLANDER, New Hampshire
Lauren Holmes, Majority Staff Director
Melissa Jung, Minority Staff Director
C O N T E N T S
OPENING STATEMENTS
Page
Hon. Mark Alford................................................. 1
Hon. Derek Tran.................................................. 3
WITNESSES
Mr. Theodore J. Gutierrez, State Director, Missouri Small
Business Development Center (SBDC), Columbia, MO............... 8
Mr. Alfredo Ortiz, Chief Executive Officer, Job Creators Network,
Sugar Land, TX................................................. 10
Mr. Richard Trent, Executive Director, Main Street Alliance,
North Bethesda, MD............................................. 11
APPENDIX
Prepared Statements:
Mr. Theodore J. Gutierrez, State Director, Missouri Small
Business Development Center (SBDC), Columbia, MO........... 29
Mr. Alfredo Ortiz, Chief Executive Officer, Job Creators
Network, Sugar Land, TX.................................... 33
Mr. Richard Trent, Executive Director, Main Street Alliance,
North Bethesda, MD......................................... 35
Questions for the Record:
None.
Answers for the Record:
None.
Additional Material for the Record:
H.R. 2027 - Returning SBA to Main Street Act................. 38
ABC Letter................................................... 49
DCUC Letter.................................................. 51
RESTORING THE SBA: PUTTING MAIN STREET AMERICA FIRST
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TUESDAY, MARCH 11, 2025
House of Representatives,
Committee on Small Business,
Subcommittee on Oversight,
Investigations, and Regulations,
Washington, DC.
The Subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 10:02 a.m., in
Room 2360, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Mark Alford
[chairman of the Subcommittee] presiding.
Present: Representatives Alford, Van Duyne, Finstad,
Downing, Tran, Cisneros, McIver, Simon, and Goodlander.
Also Present: Representatives Williams, Velazquez,
Gutierrez, Ortiz, Trent, and Wied.
Chairman ALFORD. Good morning, everyone. Before we get
started, I want to recognize Congressman Brad Finstad from the
great state of Minnesota to lead us in the Pledge of Allegiance
and a prayer.
Mr. FINSTAD. Thank you. Please bow your heads. Dear Father,
we thank you for (off mic)
I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of
America. And to the Republic for which it stands, one nation
under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
Chairman ALFORD. Good morning, everyone. I now call the
committee on Oversight, Investigations, and Regulation to
order. Without objection, the Chair is authorized to declare a
recess of the committee at any time.
I now recognize myself for my opening statement.
Welcome to today's hearing which will focus on restoring
the SBA to its original mission of serving Main Street America.
First, I want to thank our witnesses, all three of you, for
joining us today on your own time and your own dime. I really
appreciate you being here. I hope this hearing will continue to
be a productive dialogue on how we can ensure that the Small
Business Administration returns to its mission to assist small
businesses while increasing efficiency at the agency.
Owning your own business is one of the most rewarding
careers in our great nation. The SBA has dedicated resources to
aid job creators who find themselves having a tough time
navigating their entrepreneurial journey. Through the public
private partnership with the Small Business Development Center,
small businesses at all stages can receive critical counseling
and training. SBDCs have many solutions to support main street,
from preparing loan applications to workforce development.
Since we spend taxpayer dollars providing these resources to
entrepreneurs, we must ensure that these programs operate
effectively and efficiently. Importantly, these programs must
be consistent with the intent and mission of the SBA.
Unfortunately, during the Biden-Harris administration, the
SBA strayed from its core mission and prioritized politics and
misguided policies over American small businesses. An overall
theme was the SBA's flawed operation that limited the agency's
day-to-day work. Notably, the agency's work-from-home policy
for SBA staff hindered its ability to execute its mission up
until a few weeks ago thanks to President Trump and our new
administrator.
Biden's SBA falsely claimed that it could operate remotely.
But the reality was that the SBA was a ghost town. We saw it
firsthand. When Members of this committee visited the SBA
headquarters, we found rows of empty desks, calendars that had
not been moved since 2020. And this was when they knew we were
coming. The Biden SBA repeatedly failed to deliver for America
small businesses while also failing to conduct sufficient
oversight of its programs. Instead, they focus on turning the
agency into a voter registration arm of the Biden-Harris
reelection efforts.
It is critical that we conduct the necessary oversight over
the SBA's operations, especially for political initiatives like
voter registration that were well outside the scope of the
agency's core mission, providing support to America's small
businesses.
As I just mentioned, thanks to President Trump's steps to
address these egregious failures and more are being taken with
the new SBA Administrator, Kelly Loeffler, during this hearing
we will dive into what went wrong. However, it is equally vital
to focus on creating positive change. These efforts should
begin with the untapped potential of the SBA Office of
Advocacy, better known as just Advocacy. The Office of Advocacy
is supposed to serve as the independent voice for small
businesses within the federal government, monitoring and
ensuring compliance with the Regulatory Reflexibility Act and
helping policymakers better understand issues confronting small
business owners.
Over the years, though, Advocacy has faced several
challenges in advocating for small businesses. Of top concern,
the Biden administration has refused to even nominate an
individual for the position of chief counsel of the Office of
Advocacy, leaving the top small business advocate position
vacant. Last Congress, the committee sent letters to then
President Biden calling on him to fill the position. But
instead, reckless rulemaking followed. While small businesses
were forced to endure Biden's unprecedented onslaught of
regulations, his administration shamefully did not prioritize
appointing an independent voice for small businesses. These
failures have shown just how out of touch the SBA had become.
It is time. It is time to return the SBA to its core
mission and finally meet the needs of Main Street America. And
that is why I am proud to announce that I have introduced the
Returning SBA to Main Street Act in the U.S. House. The
Returning SBA to Main Street Act was first introduced in the
Senate by the Committee on Small Business and Entrepreneurship
Chair, Senator Ernst. I am honored to introduce the House
Companion Bill to ensure that the SBA workforce is no longer
centered around D.C. and will meet the needs of small
businesses where they are, especially in rural communities in
my district in Missouri's 4th district.
Today our office sent a letter to Administrator Loeffler
requesting that the SBA's Kansas City Regional Office be moved
to Columbia, Missouri, in accordance with her initiative to
move SBA offices out of sanctuary cities. While Kansas City's
policies are only sanctuary city adjacent, Columbia offers a
far superior alternative thanks to its closer proximity to the
University of Missouri, Missouri's Small Business Development
Center, and the rural communities that reflect the heart of
America.
Again, I want to thank the witnesses for being here today
to testify.
And with that, I now recognize my friend and the
distinguished Ranking Member from the great state of
California, Mr. Tran, for his opening remarks.
Mr. TRAN. Thank you, Chair Alford, and I am pleased to have
the opportunity to serve as the Ranking Member of this
important subcommittee. I look forward to working with you
throughout this Congress to conduct robust oversight of the
Small Business Administration. Thank you to the witnesses for
being here today. I hope to hear more today on how we can
support our small businesses' access the tools they need to
launch and grow successful businesses.
Let me begin by mentioning that under the Biden-Harris
administration, more than 21 million business applications were
filed. The largest number in a single presidential term in the
history of our nation. Women, minorities and immigrant
entrepreneurs played a leading role in this historic surge.
Business ownership doubled for black households while Latino
and Asian American household reached a 30 year high. More
Americans than ever were able to pursue the American Dream and
that is a milestone that we should be celebrating today.
We should also be focusing on the achievement of the
previous administration. In fiscal year 2024, SBA approved more
than 76,000 loans in the 7A and 504 programs providing 37.7
billion to small businesses. The Microloan program, which
provides loans up to $50,000, approved 94 million in new small
dollar loans, meaning the smallest of the small businesses were
able to access capital which can be so hard to come by and can
be a barrier for growth. The resource partners offered free and
low-cost counseling to hundreds of thousands of entrepreneurs
to help them tackle the challenges they face every day. And in
part to SBA's efforts, federal agencies awarded 28.4 percent of
federal contracting dollars totaling $178.6 billion to small
businesses.
The facts speak for themselves. Despite what you may hear
today, SBA is committed to its mission of helping small
businesses. That has been true under each administration, in
large part because of dedicated civil servants. Their work
should be applauded, not demonized. SBA employees workday in
and day--work day and night under the first Trump
administration and through the Biden administration to
implement emergency COVID programs that meant the very survival
of millions of small businesses and nonprofits in this country.
I stand ready to work with everyone here to ensure the
integrity of programs and efficient government. But it cannot
come at the expense of SBA staff working diligently to serve
small employers.
Turning to the environment today, we are in the midst of
troubling and chaotic times. And in the roughly 2 short months
of the Trump administration, we have lurched from one crisis to
another. Late in the night on January 24th, President Trump
fired SBA's Inspector General Mike Ware without the 30-day
advance notice to Congress or a reason as required by law. Mr.
Ware testified before our committee multiple times about the
potential fraud and the pandemic relief programs and was
praised by Members on both sides of the aisle for his work to
investigate and recover fraudulent pandemic funds. Which I
should note occurred mostly under the first Trump
administration.
A couple of days later, OMB released a memo requiring all
agencies to freeze federal funding, which led to widespread
confusion for small businesses, lenders, resource partners and
contractors. Small businesses rely heavily on SBA's counseling,
contracting and access to capital programs, and a disruption in
funding, even for a short period of time, could impact the
viability, cash flow and services of small businesses. While
the memo was supposedly rescinded the next day, the White House
press secretary said the freeze remained in full force and
effect. Needless to say, these actions caused undue confusion,
chaos and uncertainty.
I, along with the Ranking Member, Rep. Nydia Velazquez,
sent an oversight letter to the SBA expressing our concern over
the administration's action to freeze federal funding and to
obtain a list of any and all programs that may have been
affected. Then on February 3rd, we started hearing reports that
Elon Musk and his DOGE team infiltrated the SBA, gaining access
to all of SBA systems, including human resources, contract and
payment system. This breach has widespread implications for
America's 35 million small businesses, potentially endangering
their private information. Despite sending two letters to the
SBA, along with all the Democratic Members of the committee, we
have yet to receive a legitimate response to our questions
about Elon Musk and DOGE team accessing the systems within SBA.
On Friday, February 7th, hundreds of SBA employees received
termination notices, leaving them and their supervisors
scrambling for information. Then on Monday, February 10th, SBA
officials said it was a mistake only to receive a termination
notice again on Tuesday, February 11th, but this time the
firings were for real and effective immediately. Not only was
this incredibly confusing, but it was mean-spirited, cruel and
made clear that no meaningful thought went into the decision.
And now small firms and farmers all over the country are
reeling from the back-and-forth nature of tariffs with Canada
and Mexico. The uncertainty has left many struggling to keep
up.
We have seen this before in June 2018 when the Trump
administration launched a trade war with the EU over steel.
America's small distilleries were hit by retaliatory tariffs
and saw production costs rise. For example, Cedar Ridge
Distillery in Iowa faced higher prices for the steel used in
their aging barrels, which led to higher costs in production
and forced them to end plans for expansion. Even the U.S.
Chamber of Commerce has raised the alarm bells of small
businesses scrambling to adjust to the current trade war. For
example, take Pluie Inc., a Texas-based company that makes
diaper changing tables. They are now forced to revisit their
budget, allocating more for tariffs while cutting back on
marketing.
American small business cannot stomach the chaos, confusion
and uncertainty of a Trump administration and they deserve
better. It is time to work together and conduct real and
meaningful oversight into the administration and the effect it
is having on small businesses.
I look forward to hearing from our witnesses today. Thank
you. And I yield back.
Chairman ALFORD. Thank you, Mr. Tran. I now recognize the
Chairman of the full committee from the great state of Texas,
Chairman Roger Williams, for an opening statement. Chair?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Thank you, Chairman Alford, and I am pleased
to announce the first hearing organized by the subcommittee on
Oversight and Investigation Regulations focuses on restoring
the SBA to its foundational mission of serving Main Street
America. And I also want to thank you, all the witnesses, for
being here today, too.
Now, since the SBA's founding 70 years ago, its mission
statement has renamed--remained the same, and that is to aid,
counsel, assist and protect the interests of small business
concerns. Unfortunately, under President Biden, the SBA
deviated from its core mission of helping America start, grow
and build resilient businesses. For example, instead of
listening to the very real hardships experienced by main
street, like access to capital, inflation and regulatory
burdens, in 2024, the SBA entered into a memo--or an MOU with
the Michigan Department of State, which allowed the SBA to
arrest her voters at its events in Michigan and with a link to
the SBA's website.
Now, registering voters is undeniably irrelevant to the
SBA's mission, and it is unconscionable that political
activities were prioritized over the voices of small business
owners. And further, the SBA has been operating both
duplicative and unauthorized programs over the years. This is
particularly troubling since the most important programs are
performed on the ground where staffing and resources are
already stretched very thin.
And it has recently come to the attention of the committee
that the SBA may have attempted to leverage the Small Business
Development Centers to carry out duties that aligned with the
Biden-Harris misguided policies and political initiatives,
pulling them away from the counseling and training programs
that main street and small business owners need.
Now, to echo subcommittee Chairman Alford and the work of
this subcommittee at large, we must make sure that we are both
doing right by the taxpayer and entrepreneurs that the SBH
programs are streamlined, effective and efficient. Alongside
President Trump and Minister Loeffler, there is a committee--we
as a committee remain focused on putting main street first. And
I am glad to see Representative Alford introduce the House
companion to Chair Ernst's Returning SBA to Main Street Act.
The critical legislation will ensure that the needs of main
street are met by relocating more of the SBA workforce to main
street. In other words, in retail business, take the product to
the customer. Ensuring that all SBA programs are running
effectively is essential to meeting the needs of small
businesses. And the idea shared today will help the SBA's
future and right-size the agency.
So with that being said, I look forward to today's
important conversation. Want to thank all of you again, and I
yield back.
Chairman ALFORD. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
It is now my honor to recognize the Ranking Member of the
full committee from the great state of New York, Ranking Member
Velazquez, for an opening statement.
Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and Mr.
Tran. Thank you to the witnesses for being here today. The
purpose of today's hearing is to restore the SBA and put Main
Street America first. Well, we are going to have to sift
through the rhetoric to find the facts.
Let's begin by talking about the small business boom. More
than 21 million small businesses were created during the Biden
administration. And women and minorities led the way, starting
more businesses, providing for their families and creating
economic growth in their communities. We should be building on
the previous administration efforts. Instead, this
administration in 3 short months has opted to upend one policy
after another and injecting chaos, confusion and uncertainty
for small businesses.
Let's focus for a minute on the President's on-again, off-
again tariff war with Canada and Mexico. It is a whiplash for
employers simply trying to run their business. The bottom line
is consumer prices will surge. Even the U.S. Chamber of
Commerce recognizes this and publishes a report entitled
``Small Businesses Are Afraid.'' They are worried that the
added cost of tariffs will adversely impact their ability to
remain competitive and turn a profit. Small businesses need
certainty, and instead, they must adjust to chaotic economic
policies.
Turning to the SBA, we have a tech billionaire rifling
through SBA data and we cannot get a straight answer from the
SBA as to what data has been accessed and why, or even why they
need it. Democrats on this committee sent numerous letters that
have gone unanswered. And while this letter has gone
unanswered, the newly confirmed administrator wasted no time
walking through the SBA, pointing out empty desks for a photo
op on her policy to end teleworking. What was not mentioned was
the mass termination of hundreds of employee's days before. In
less than a week, hundreds of employees were fired, only to be
told it was a mistake. And then they were fired again,
effective immediately. We are still waiting for the agency to
respond to requests detailing the impact and breadth of the
termination so we can understand how it serves the SBA mission.
And most concerning are the recent reports that employees
of SBA Fraud Risk Management Board, which was created in 2022
to root out waste, fraud and abuse at the agency have been
terminated. And that is in addition to the President firing the
SBA IG.
How could we have spent 2 years in this committee talking
about curbing fraud in the pandemic programs and sit idly by
while the Trump administration is firing the key people who can
investigate, prevent and recover fraudulent funds? And now, we
are hearing, not being informed that the new administrator is
closing down six regional offices in Democratic cities, not
less, with no plans to relocate them. I can only assume that
this must be part of the reorganization, an effort to RIF
federal employees, all in the name of complying with
immigration executive orders. I hope we get assurances this
won't hinder the agency's mission to provide assistance to
small employers in this city as well as others.
And while we are speaking of the SBA mission, which is to
assist small employers in accessing capital and entrepreneurial
development, I am curious as to why Administrator Loeffler
likes the idea of SBA taking over the student loan process. Who
is going to take care of this business? Firing the workforce
that works at SBA? And where are the resources when they are
cutting its budget? How does this fit the agency's mission?
That is the real question. While I appreciate the witnesses
that are testifying today, I am frustrated that we do not have
the SBA Administrator here to speak directly to us. We must
conduct real oversight of the SBA and bring in the agency heads
to shed light into what is going on behind closed doors.
Thank you. And I yield back.
Chairman ALFORD. Thank you, Ranking Member. Appreciate
that.
I will now introduce our witnesses for today.
Our first witness is Mr. Ted J. Gutierrez. Mr. Gutierrez is
the State Director of the Missouri Small Business Development
Center in Columbia, Missouri, in the 4th Congressional
District. Mr. Gutierrez joined the Missouri Small Business
Development Center in 2022, following years of experience at
the Virgin Islands, St. Louis, and Southern Illinois University
locations. Prior to that, Mr. Gutierrez worked as a banker at
Mid Country Bank and a Managing Director of the Jackson County
Mass Transit District in Illinois. Mr. Gutierrez currently
serves on the National Board for America's Small Business
Development Center and as an Education Director for the
University of Missouri's Extension Business Development
Program. Mr. Gutierrez holds a Master's of Business
Administration from the University of Redlands in Redlands,
California, and a Bachelor of Science from the University of
New Mexico in Albuquerque. Thank you for joining us today, sir.
I am looking forward to today's important conversation.
Our next witness here is Mr. Alfredo Ortiz. Mr. Ortiz is
the chief executive officer of the Job Creators Network in
Atlanta, Georgia. Mr. Ortiz joined the Job Creators Network in
2014. Prior to that, he served as vice president of CSM Bakery
Products Food Service Division and as a consultant for Boston
Consulting Group in their Washington office. He is also worked
in marketing, new product development, and corporate strategy
for Georgia Pacific, Kraft and others. Mr. Ortiz is currently a
Board Member for the Georgia Chamber of Commerce and an
Advisory Board Member for Littler's Workplace Policy Institute.
He is also the co-host of the Main Street Matters podcast. Mr.
Ortiz holds a Master of Business Administration from the
University of Michigan in Ann Arbor and a Bachelor's in
Economics from Pomona College in Claremont, California. Thank
you, sir, for being here today. I look forward to hearing your
testimony and having a great conversation.
We appreciate all of you being here today. And before we
recognize the witnesses, I want to remind them that their oral
testimony is restricted to 5 minutes. And our Ranking Member
will now introduce the witness for the minority.
Mr. TRAN. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I am delighted to introduce Mr. Richard Trent, the
executive director of Main Street Alliance. Mr. Trent had a
dynamic career prior to joining the Main Street Alliance. As
the Executive Director of Friends of Anacostia Park, Mr. Trent
oversaw one of the East Coast's largest environmental
restoration projects. Today, he is working every day to create
a level playing field for main street small businesses. His
work has helped uplift communities all across the country and,
in turn, boost their local economies. I look forward to your
testimony, which will reflect the voices of the mom-and-pop
small businesses. Thank you for being here.
Chairman ALFORD. Again, just for the witnesses, I want to
remind you that you have 5 minutes for your opening remarks.
You will see a red clock in front of you that is set to 5
minutes, and when your time is expired, we will gavel you out
and go to the next witness remarks. So thank you.
I now recognize Mr. Gutierrez for his 5-minute opening
remarks. Sir?
STATEMENTS OF THEODORE J. GUTIERREZ, STATE DIRECTOR, MISSOURI
SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT CENTER (SBDC); ALFREDO ORTIZ, CHIEF
EXECUTIVE OFFICER, JOB CREATORS NETWORK; AND RICHARD TRENT,
EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, MAIN STREET ALLIANCE
STATEMENT OF TED J. GUTIERREZ, STATE DIRECTOR, MISSOURI SMALL
BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT CENTER
Mr. GUTIERREZ. Good morning Chairman Alford, Ranking Member
Tran, Members of the committee, thank you for inviting me to
testify today.
My name is Theodore (Ted) Gutierrez, and I am the state
director for the Missouri Small Business Development Center
hosted by the University of Missouri Extension. Our network is
dedicated to supporting and advancing the success of Missouri's
entrepreneurs and small businesses.
We are a proud part of the nationwide Small Business
Development Center system of 63 networks with over 900
locations and over 3,000 professional counselors, advisors,
specialists and support staff.
For over 43 years SBDCs have been providing one-on-one
counseling services to small business owners and aspiring
entrepreneurs at no cost. During that time, our member networks
have developed a wide variety of services tailored to meet the
needs of Main Street America.
Some of the subject matter we counsel on and train include
cybersecurity, export assistance, disaster recovery and
resiliency, manufacturing, marketing, sales, ecommerce,
accounting, financial statement analysis, business strategy
development, business plan, basic credit practices, pre-
business startup planning, existing business expansion, and of
course exit strategy and succession planning, and many more as
dictated by our statute.
SBDCs continue to evolve to meet the needs of America's
small businesses. We are tasked with providing almost every
conceivable form of technical assistance to small businesses in
our respective states. Each SBDC network is nationally
accredited which distinguishes us among available resources.
Our networks leverage the accreditation to evaluate and update
our services to meet the changing needs of our clients who
drive our services. Our economic impacts and performance
numbers are based on attributed verified input from our
clients.
By sheer volume, locations and economic impact, the SBDC
program is the number one resource in the United States and its
territories providing technical assistance and training for
entrepreneurs and small businesses. In FY `22-'23,
Congressional funding or investment for America's SBDCs
translated to $216.4 million in federal revenues generated and
$327.2 million in state revenues generated. Every federal
dollar received rendered $1.59 in federal tax revenue and $2.40
in state tax revenue. A new job is created every 6.5 minutes. A
new business is started every 33.3 minutes. Our clients
experience an average of 15 percent annual sales growth
compared to the national average of 6.2 percent with $6.6
billion in sales. SBDC is providing 90 percent of SBA's access
to capital assistance. SBDCs served 92 percent of SBA's
technical assistance clients.
Despite SBDC's economic impact generation and ROI, here are
a few challenges we face. Funding priorities versus demand for
our services, both federal and local. Political agendas which
lead to mission drift. Funding to bring on more staff with
industry expertise. Funding for technology and implementation
in ways to reach additional small businesses in need of help,
especially in rural America. Funding to provide disaster
planning, resiliency and recovery.
Here are a few challenges faced by Main Street America.
Confusion of resources available. Uncertainty of economic
climate, i.e., high interest rates, taxes. Supply chain
disruption. Increased costs of the workforce, minimum wage
laws. Finding and hiring people who are reliable and want to
work. And of course, disaster recovery efforts and strategies
for long-term recovery. SBDCs are the first responders to a
natural disaster or disaster and SBDCs are there during and
after the disaster.
So we ask how can the SBA be restored? Simply by putting
Main Street America first. The SBA is responsible for
dispersing the allocated Congressional funding and
administration of our grant program. It is important to
distinguish that the SBDC is not part of SBA nor are employees
of SBA.
Over the years, SBDCs have worked with SBA administrators
from every administration. We do that because SBA is our
partner, just as our host universities, states, banks and
economic development groups. The SBA is ready for clarity of
purpose and vision to serve entrepreneurs and small businesses.
The SBA should remain an advocate for the millions of small
businesses in our country not focused on political agendas. SBA
has many fantastic tools and partners. They need to use them
appropriately and efficiently. To regain public trust in the
SBA, it must focus on providing resources and collaborate with
partner programs such as the SBDC so every entrepreneur can
work towards achieving their dream and contribute to the
overall well-being of our economy. Every entrepreneur from the
wheat fields to the shops of Main Street America should have
the same opportunity for success.
This concludes my testimony. Once again, thank you Chairman
Alford and the committee for allowing me to speak here today.
Chairman ALFORD. Great timing. Thank you.
Let's go to Mr. Ortiz for his 5-minute remarks. Sir?
STATEMENT OF ALFREDO ORTIZ, CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER, THE JOB
CREATORS NETWORK
Mr. ORTIZ. Good morning, Chairman Alford and distinguished
Members of the Oversight, Investigations, and Regulations
Subcommittee.
Thank you for the opportunity to testify today on the vital
topic of restoring the U.S. Small Business Administration. My
name is Alfredo Ortiz and I am the CEO of Job Creators Network
and the nation's largest conservative small business advocacy
organization.
It is no secret that small businesses have faced historic
challenges over the past few years. These include the COVID
pandemic and the heavy-handed government response, as well as
the weak economy characterized by high inflation and
overregulation. The Biden administration implemented a nearly
$2 trillion regulatory burden that disproportionately harmed
small businesses. Now, more than ever, small businesses need an
effective agency in Washington looking out for them.
Unfortunately, the Small Business Administration has let
entrepreneurs down over the past few years. Under the Biden
administration, it prioritized political activities such as
voter registration and diversity, equity, and inclusion over
the real concerns of small businesses.
Ignoring repeated urging from Chairman Williams and the
broader small business community, the Biden Administration
never even nominated a chief counsel for Advocacy, leaving a
key office unfilled that could have acted as the voice of Main
Street during this difficult period.
The SBA also did not adequately require its staff to return
to work, resulting in an office vacancy of 90 percent by one
estimate. No wonder American small businesses have lost faith
in the SBA.
That changes with the trusted and proven leadership of
Administrator Kelly Loeffler. The SBA now has the opportunity
to restore its core mission of helping small businesses. That
means ending the agency's politicization and bureaucracy,
requiring staff to return to work and engaging in rigorous
oversight and accountability.
Under the Chief Counsel of Economist Casey Mulligan, who
successfully led Trump's Council of Economic Advisors in his
first term, the SBA's Office of Advocacy can finally get the
leadership it needs to be small businesses' independent voice
within the federal government.
The Office of Advocacy plays an important role in ensuring
compliance with the Regulatory Flexibility Act, which the
previous administration routinely ignored to the detriment of
small businesses. JCN is fighting to pass the Prove It Act,
which fulfills the intent of the Regulatory Flexibility Act and
gives small businesses a seat at the rulemaking table. But
until then, a strong Office of Advocacy can reduce red tape and
stand up for the small businesses in Washington.
Once restored, the SBA can take steps to do even more good
for small businesses. At the top of this list is prioritizing
training programs to teach entrepreneurs the skills they need
to survive and thrive. Teaching small businesses how to fish so
they can be successful for the long-term.
The SBA should harmonize existing private sector small
business efforts by the likes of Goldman Sachs and American
Express in a public-private partnership small business training
program. This program will teach entrepreneurs the basics of
succeeding in today's economy, including building a convincing
business plan, identifying suppliers and selling online.
These efforts can significantly reduce the first-year small
business failure rate, which currently stands at about 20
percent. Decreasing this failure rate to around 10 percent,
let's say, would result in millions of more small businesses
and millions of jobs over the years, significantly
strengthening the American economy.
A key component in this more effective SBA is heeding
Chairman Alford's recommendation to move personnel to regional
offices closer to the small businesses they serve. It is
impossible for the Washington SBA to have its pulse on the
needs of Main Street in communities from coast to coast. SBA
loan making should also be conducted by third-party community
banks with this lending expertise and community relationships.
Under the leadership of Administration Leffler and Chief
Counsel Mulligan as well as the oversight of this committee,
the SBA can be restored and reinvented into the agency that the
American small businesses want and need. Thank you very much
for your time, and I would be happy to answer any questions you
may have.
Chairman ALFORD. Thank you, sir.
I now recognize Mr. Trent for his 5-minute opening remarks.
STATEMENT OF RICHARD TRENT, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, MAIN STREET
ALLIANCE
Mr. TRENT. Chairman Alford and Ranking Member Tran, thank
you for the opportunity to testify today.
I am Richard Trent, the executive director of Main Street
Alliance, representing over 30,000 small business owners
nationwide. Our members span industries, but they share a
fundamental need; a stable, predictable economy that allows
them to plan, invest and grow. Unfortunately, that stability is
being undermined not by market forces alone, but by reckless
decision making that injects uncertainty into the economy and
disrupts small businesses ability to operate.
While some argue that regulations are the biggest burden on
small businesses, our members tell us otherwise. Their greatest
concerns aren't red tape. Their instability at key agencies,
policy reversals, and economic disruptions that shake their
ability to plan for the future.
Today, I want to focus on three urgent issues that are
fueling uncertainty and putting small business survival at
risk.
First, I will just say that SBA instability is hurting our
entrepreneurs. The Small Business Administration is a lifeline
for 35 million small businesses. Yet recent mass firings,
sudden program changes and bureaucratic delays have thrown
thousands of entrepreneurs into limbo.
Patrick DePula, owner of Salvatore's Tomato Pies in
Madison, Wisconsin, is actively repaying an economic injury
disaster loan that kept his doors open during COVID. If the
U.S. enters a downturn, the SBA's ability to offer hardship
waivers will be critical. But staffing cuts raise serious
concerns about whether those safeguards will still exist.
Shannon Burns, an entrepreneur and consultant in
Alexandria, Minnesota, helps new small businesses craft
business plans. With 20 million new businesses launched since
2020, SBA's resources are needed more than ever. Yet reduced
staffing will limit access to these vital services.
Molly Moon Neitzel, who testified here a few weeks ago,
owner of Molly Moon's Ice Cream in Seattle, Washington, was
expanding her business when she learned of leadership changes
and staffing cuts at the SBA. She had contracts signed and
investments made, and any delay in finalizing her loan would
have made that devastating for her.
Decentralization must be strategic and planned, not
weaponized in ways that create chaos for businesses. All of
this is happening against a backdrop of inflationary pressures
and market uncertainty. The trade war escalations and erratic
tariff policies are already impacting small businesses. 2 weeks
ago, a Dodge Ram truck cost $80,000. Now it is $100,000. If
that is what is happening to trucks, imagine the impact on
restaurants, grocery stores and retailers that rely on imports.
Ballooning deficits and corporate tax loopholes put upward
pressure on interest rates.
Second, it is important to note that federal funding
freezes and data breaches are direct attacks on small business
stability. When federal funding is frozen or misused, the first
to feel the impact are small business owners who rely on these
funds to keep employees on payroll and communities thriving.
A tech entrepreneur in Utah lost multiple contracts when
the freeze stalled nonprofit sales, disrupting a revenue
pipeline. A Wisconsin childcare provider feared delays in state
block grant funding would leave her unable to pay staff. And a
researcher in Oak Ridge, Tennessee, had her federally funded
projects suspended overnight, leaving her uncertain about her
income and career.
These aren't abstract concerns. They are real businesses,
real jobs, and real consequences. And when federal funds stop
flowing, they don't just delay government projects, they slow
down entire economies.
And beyond funding freezes, the DOGE seizures of sensitive
IRS data is an existential threat. One of the world's richest
men now has access to bank statements, tax records and
competitive financial data of millions of businesses, including
his own competitors. This is not draining the swamp; it is
stocking it with more crocodiles. No CEO in America should have
access to that kind of intelligence, which destroys fair
competition and erodes trust in government institutions.
The third thing I will bring up is just that SBA office
relocations and the Ernst Bill will hurt local economies. We
have seen what happens when abrupt agency relocations gut
institutional knowledge and destabilize communities. In 2019,
the USDA moved two research agencies from D.C. to Kansas, and
75 percent of employees resigned; stalling grants, research and
hurting local businesses that relied on federal contracts.
Now the Administrator's memo mandates that SBA regional
offices relocate from sanctuary cities, turning thriving small
business hubs like Boston, Atlanta, Denver and Seattle into
collateral damage for political posturing.
I urge this committee to focus on practical, bipartisan
solutions in light of the current economic uncertainty. Fully
staff the SBA so it can meet the needs of entrepreneurs.
Unfreeze critical funding that small businesses rely on. Block
corporate access to sensitive financial data to preserve fair
competition. And reject policies that inject instability into
the economy and instead strengthen Main Street's ability to
compete.
Thank you, and I look forward to your questions.
Chairman ALFORD. Thank you, Mr. Trent. Well done.
We now move to the Member questions. Under the 5-minute
rule, I recognize myself for 5 minutes.
Mr. Gutierrez, this morning I was proud to introduce the
Returning SBA to Main Street Act. A companion bill to
Chairwoman Ernst's bill in the U.S. Senate. Mr. Gutierrez, over
the past four years you have had firsthand experience working
to fill the gap, somewhat big gap, left by a political SBA. Can
you speak to us about how an SBA that is actually focused on
Main Street could actually help small businesses?
Mr. GUTIERREZ. Thank you for the question, Congressman.
You know, having SBA focus on what the mission and values
of SBA should be on supporting small businesses is crucial. I
know that several SBA field offices are short on staff. I know
that many of them were not necessarily available to help as
soon as help was needed. Therefore, we were able to fill the
gap, along with some other resource partners as well.
But SBA essentially just needs to focus on what it is they
re doing and serving the small businesses, relying on its
partners to work and to help on the front lines. Having SBA in
the field would be a tremendous asset to small businesses,
particularly in, you know, throughout the--throughout the
Midwest, of course, working with the community bankers to
having those subject matter experts in the field would be
amazing.
Over the past few years, we have had one SBA representative
in the field of Missouri down in Springfield, and the others
were located in both St. Louis and Kansas City. So that is
simply just not enough assistance from SBA throughout the
state. And of course, anytime that assistance was needed, they
typically referred them out to the partners such as SBDCs, the
Women's Business Centers, the Veterans Business Outreach
Centers and SCORE as well.
Chairman ALFORD. So what would it mean if we ended up
moving the Kansas City SBA office to Columbia?
Mr. GUTIERREZ. Well, Columbia will be very excited to have
SBA presence there again. I believe that during COVID, the SBA
office was removed at that time. And so, just having that local
presence, that local subject matter, would do wonders because
it will mean more availability to community bankers. Being
central to the state would be more access throughout the state
within a 5- or 6-hour drive anywhere across the state. And it
would just serve as a signal that SBA is here and ready to help
serve in the communities.
Chairman ALFORD. Mr. Ortiz, SBA Administrator Loeffler has
echoed the President's return to office mandate. SBA staff are
now required to be in the office 5 days a week. While this is a
great start, you have further recommended that funding regional
initiatives like entrepreneur centers would be a more efficient
use of taxpayer dollars. Please explain your reasoning for that
recommendation, sir.
Mr. ORTIZ. Thank you, Chairman Alford, for the question.
Having education and innovation centers, I think,
regionally closer to where there are small business owners are,
would be extremely, I think, well received by our small
business owners. I doubt that there are too many small business
entrepreneurs out there in, let's say, Des Moines, Iowa, that
decide, hey, I want to start my own small business. Let me get
on a plane, fly up to D.C., and enter the halls of SBA to
help--help me do that. They need them there. They need them
where they are, where the ideas are. We need to bring those
resources to the people. Where the people are, not here in D.C.
One of the recommendations I had made is let's just close
down the D.C. offices. I don't see why we would need that. I
think we need those resources out in the fields. We need
support for folks like Mr. Gutierrez here. And we need to be
able to support our small business owners where they are, which
is in the fields because they are not in D.C. And so, I think
having the opportunity to do that, I think, would make the 1.4
billion, roughly, that is allocated for the department much
more effective and more efficiently.
Chairman ALFORD. Thank you, sir.
Mr. Gutierrez, back to you. Though the COVID-19 pandemic
was declared over in '23, Community Navigators programs
continue well into 2025. In fact, that program's set to sunset
9 months from now. Some people call it walking-around money for
Biden-preferred organizations. It seems that Community
Navigators has a reputation for not being very efficient. Can
you walk us through how the Community Navigators program
duplicated efforts already done by SBDCs?
Mr. GUTIERREZ. So my understanding with the Community
Navigators program is that each state was allocated a certain
amount of funding and it was granted towards a certain NGO or
nonprofit. And to be quite honest with you, the SBDCs in
several states actually hosted the Navigators program. In the
state of Missouri, we did not. We were actually never contacted
by the Navigators program. I cannot speak to any type of
results, or any type of information produced by the Navigators
program other than we knew they were there somewhere in
Missouri, and I don't even know if they are staffed anymore. So
as far as duplication of efforts, we were doing that all along
for 43 years. We will be doing it for another 43 years.
Chairman ALFORD. Thank you. I now recognize the Ranking
Member for 5 minutes of questions.
Mr. TRAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. In less than a week,
between 400 to 700 SBA employees were terminated with notice,
then informed the terminations were a mistake, and then fired
effectively immediately, effective immediately. Many of these
employees were veterans, injured or disabled workers, and
workers with years of service. Mr. Trent, can you please share
how these terminations will affect small businesses who rely on
these employees for loans, disaster aid, and small business
assistance?
Mr. TRENT. Well, I can say that well over half of our
30,000-plus membership have applied for funding through the SBA
and a significant portion actually rely on different loan
products or technical assistance. Over the last couple years,
the SBA has offered, honestly, a real bespoke service to small
business owners. We have got members in our cohort who speak
directly to regional officers, loan officers that help them
drive business sustainability. So the mass firing of between
400 and 700 people will inevitably have a direct impact on
entrepreneurs' ability to successfully navigate the challenges
that present themselves every single day as a small business
owner.
Mr. TRAN. Thank you, Mr. Trent. Last Thursday,
Administrator Loeffler announced that she is relocating six
regional SBA offices away from sanctuary cities. Can you
describe the effect the closure of these offices will have on
Main Street businesses in urban areas?
Mr. TRENT. Well, it is really unfortunate because what it
means is that you have got honest, hardworking entrepreneurs
that are now caught in the middle of a game of political
football that none of them wanted to have anything to do with
in the first place. I will say that the example from 2019, the
relocation of the USDA offices, is a good example of what
happens. When the USDA office was moved from D.C. to Kansas
back in 2019, 75 percent of the workforce left. The local shops
that depended on that regular foot traffic languished. And
Chief of Staff Mick Mulvaney at the time was actually caught
saying that this was all designed just to fire people,
essentially. So it would be good, I think that if we, if we
talked about it in those sort of blunt terms is just like,
yeah, we wanted, we would like to get rid of folks at the SBA.
But this is a PR sleight of hand that is really disadvantaging
folks. And the local economies will--that are--that thrive on
that foot traffic in Atlanta and Boston and Denver are
certainly going to feel the effects of it.
Mr. TRAN. Thank you for that. And then on March 3rd of
2025, the U.S. Chamber of Commerce published a report titled
I'm Afraid Small Businesses Speak out on Tariffs. The report
found that terrorists will have a real devastating impact on
thousands of small businesses across the nation and on all
Americans in the form of higher prices. What are you hearing
from the small businesses in the Main Street Alliance?
Mr. TRENT. I have an inbox filled with terrified messages,
phone calls, and text messages from small business owners that
aren't really sure how they are going to continue operating if
some of these tariffs go through. I mean, we saw a report
released from NFIB, historically the conservative voice for
small business America, just came out and showed that February
12 percent of small business owners thought it was a good time
to expand their business. That is a 5 percent drop from the
previous month, the largest drop in that indicator since April
2020 when COVID struck. So you have got folks that are really
scared out here and it is no laughing matter.
Mr. TRAN. Thank you, Mr. Trent. I am going to shift to you,
Mr. Gutierrez. SBDCs have received level funding over the
years, yet you are being asked to do more and more with less
and less. Can you please share the importance of full funding
for the SBDCs? And how does lurching from one continuing
resolution to another hurt SBDC's ability to counsel small
businesses?
Mr. GUTIERREZ. Thank you for the question. So when a CR
happens to be quite honest with you, it doesn't affect us
because we all have to do what we do on a daily basis, and that
is serve our clients. What it does is it promotes the reliance
on our host universities to help or to offset any type of
potential funding slowdown. And as far as SBDCs being out there
and doing the things that we do, we just keep our head down,
focused on serving those small businesses, and make sure that
we are able to do what is asked of us, what is tasked of us
through the grant program that we are tasked with, so.
Mr. TRAN. So thank you, Chairman. I yield back.
Chairman ALFORD. Thank you, Ranking Member. I now recognize
Mr. Finstad from Minnesota for five minutes.
Mr. FINSTAD. Thank you Mr. Chairman, and thank you for
holding this important subcommittee hearing today. And thank
you to our witnesses for taking time to be with us. Over the
past four years, small businesses across our country have been
struggling to keep their doors open with the impacts of record
high inflation, supply chain disruptions, and burdensome
regulations hindering their growth. I have heard firsthand from
small businesses across my district about the impact that they
have felt over the last few years here and what it has meant to
their businesses and opportunities or lack of opportunities
across Southern Minnesota.
So that being said, I want to go to Mr. Ortiz. As President
CEO of the Job Creators Network, you know the important role
the SBA plays in supporting small business owners. One of the
things that I have seen in past experience working in federal
government is the ability to meet the customers' needs. And
that is usually a relationship based, face to face, how can I
help you kind of situation. And so, I am really happy to hear
that Administrator Loeffler has returned the SBA to in person
work. And so, just want to know from you, do you believe this
move will improve the services at SBA?
Mr. ORTIZ. Congressman, thank you for the question. I
believe the face to face is critical for the interaction for
small business owners, for their success. I still would say
that we have to get more people out to the field, to the
resources where the small business owners are. It is great that
there are some small businesses here in the D.C. area serving
the community and serving Congress, but that is not where the
bulk of our small businesses are. It is out in the field. It is
out, you know, in Pella, Iowa, in Portland, Oregon. It is all
across the country. That is where they need to be, and that is
where the resources need to be allocated. And so, I think it is
a great step in the right direction, but I think we need to go
further and we need to reallocate those resources out to the
fields.
Mr. FINSTAD. Thank you for that. And all I would say is
preach, keep preaching. And I represent a district of 21
counties, pretty rural Southern Minnesota. And a lot of times
these counties feel like they are flyover land for
organizations like SBA. And so, I completely agree with you.
Moving a little bit. In February, I was proud to
reintroduce, for the second time the House passed the Prove IT
Act. And the PROVE IT Act, it received the Job Creators Network
endorsement. And this bill would give our small businesses a
voice in the regulatory process as they work to serve their
communities and pursue the American dream. What impact, Mr.
Ortiz, do you think that the passage of this legislation would
have on small businesses in navigating the regulatory
environment?
Mr. ORTIZ. Thank you, again, for the question, Congressman.
This is a game changer for small businesses, no doubt about it.
And we are glad to see that Senator Ernst also introduced the
companion legislation in the United States Senate on this. This
is critical. I think for too long, agencies have been given a
pass in terms of trying to do what they are supposed to do,
which is show the impact to small businesses on regulations.
Too many waivers have been signed to basically say, no, it is
actually fine. And small businesses have been hurt all along
the way. They don't have the resources to come and bring all
their lawyers and, you know, 12 lawyers and everything else
that they need at the end of the legislative process to try to
challenge stuff and go to the Supreme Court. They don't have
the resources to do it. They are trying to run their businesses
24/7. And so, having the opportunity to finally force agencies
to actually consider the effect of regulation on small
businesses is critical. And having the opportunity to have a
seat at the table at the beginning of the process rather than
the end of the process is absolutely critical. Again, this is a
game changer, and I think we need to do everything we can to
make sure that it passes quickly, swiftly, and in this
Congress.
Mr. FINSTAD. I appreciate those comments, and I couldn't
agree more with you. It is, you know, really a dereliction of
duty from Congress because we pass these good intended laws, we
leave it up to the regulatory state to create all the hoops,
and loops, and bells, and whistles, and the rules and
regulatory climate that our business has to live under with no
opportunity to weigh in on, wait a minute, you know, this is
going to impact us. And to your point, small businesses don't
have stables of lawyers and compliance officers.
Mr. ORTIZ. Right.
Mr. FINSTAD. And so, giving them more power in the
regulatory process is something I am going to work hard for,
so, I appreciate your support on that.
One last question here for Mr. Gutierrez. As Missouri's
SBDC director, you more than likely have a great pulse for what
is impacting small businesses across your state. How has the
regulatory environment impacted small businesses in your
community? And what can we do here in Congress to ensure Main
Street businesses have the ability to grow and prosper?
Mr. GUTIERREZ. Sure. One big topic for a lot of small
businesses, well, for most small businesses, has been the
Corporate Transparency Act that was introduced, I believe it
was, last year, and then rescinded, and then paused, and going
back and forth. That has some very, very tough situations----
Chairman ALFORD. The gentleman's time has expired. I now
recognize Mr. Cisneros from California for five minutes.
Mr. CISNEROS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The conclusion of
the majority's hearing memo included, you know, the SBA's Mr.
Ortiz's testimony included ending the Agency's politicization.
Mr. Gutierrez shared that the SBA should not focus on political
agendas. Mr. Trent, you highlighted to us that this shouldn't
be about partisanship. We all agreed. And we should not be
politicizing the SBA. And this committee has passed multiple
bipartisan pieces of legislation, unanimously. So far, today,
we heard the SBA should go to where the people are, put Main
Street America first. Yet we have an administrator, an SBA
administrator, targeting major cities led by Democratic mayors
as she seeks to close SBA regional offices in Boston, Seattle,
Chicago, Atlanta, New York City, and Denver. And it is probably
not long before my area of Los Angeles County is on that list
as well.
So, Mr. Trent, in your view, how does the brazen
politicization of SBA to close offices in major metropolitan
areas impact small businesses?
Mr. TRENT. Yeah, it impacts them directly. And listen, I
feel for and have thousands of small business owners in rural
areas, Minnesota, Wisconsin. And I hear from them, you know, it
is absolutely, it can be tough to access some of these SBA
resources. And you know what, it is okay to talk about maybe
moving a couple staff to different parts of the country to have
more direct service for rural entrepreneurs. But the truth is
that you have got hundreds of thousands of entrepreneurs
concentrated in Atlanta, in Denver, in Boston, that are going
to feel the effects of sort of this move away from these
entrepreneurship hubs. And it is really unfortunate, I would
say. And we can already feel the rumblings, and it adds to this
environment of uncertainty for entrepreneurs that are going to
have to take on more costs, frankly, just to meet basic
technical assistance needs.
Mr. CISNEROS. Thank you for that answer. Again, Mr. Trent,
you represent a nationwide network of over 30,000 small
business owners, many of which depend on the SBA. In your
testimony, you urge the committee to reject policies that
inject instability into the economy. As we have seen with the
Trump tariffs, the President is on again, off again, based on
whoever is in his ear at that given moment. Main Street is
getting whiplash. How important is it for small businesses to
have stability?
Mr. TRENT. It is unbelievably important. So, around 50
percent of small businesses across the country are operating
with about a month of operating reserves. So, we have got to be
making decisions that are reflective of the fact that we
respect these small business owners. We respect where they are,
right, with that little operating reserve. And the uncertainty
around the tariffs, the will they, won't they soap opera, it
affects budgeting for entrepreneurs. It affects planning. It
affects the way that they are thinking about growing their
teams in the year ahead. And so, there are the direct impacts
as tariffs start to come into play. But then there are the
knock-on effects that we are really not going to be able to
know the full extent of the problem until six months, a year
from now.
Mr. CISNEROS. Thank you. According to the SBA's own
website, the Office of the Inspector General provides
independent, objective, and timely oversight to improve the
integrity, accountability, and performance of SBA and its
programs for the benefit of the American people. The SBA
administrator on day one said, from day one, the SBA will
uphold the highest standards of accountability, performance,
and integrity. Mr. Trent, how can the SBA have the highest
standards if the office tasked to provide oversight is vacant?
Did President Trump's illegal firing of the Inspector General
already undermine the administrator wanting to uphold the
highest standards of accountability and integrity?
Mr. TRENT. It is going to be tough without someone in that
office as that Inspector General is not just the main person
investigating a lot of fraud and abuse within the agency, but
also a sounding board for thousands and thousands of
entrepreneurs across the country. So, with that post vacant,
that is an ally for small business owners that is not there
right now. And frankly, it is going to be scary for our
entrepreneurial class.
Mr. CISNEROS. All right, well, thank you for your testimony
and I yield my time back.
Chairman ALFORD. Thank you, Mr. Cisneros. I now recognize
Chairman Williams from the great state of Texas for five
minutes.
Mr. WILLIAMS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And Mr. Trent, on a
side note, thanks for being here.
Mr. TRENT. Absolutely. Thanks for having me.
Mr. WILLIAMS. You are saying Dodge pickups went up from
$18,000 to $20,000?
Mr. TRENT. $80,000 to $100,000.
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yeah, I am a Dodge pickup dealer.
Mr. TRENT. It is a good truck.
Mr. WILLIAMS. In Texas. And we are selling for $70,000.
Mr. TRENT. So it sounds like a good profit off----
Mr. WILLIAMS. So, you need to get down there and see me.
Mr. Gutierrez, as we have been discussing, bloated and
duplicative SBA programs waste taxpayers' dollars and undermine
the efficiency of the effectiveness of services provided small
business. Could you elaborate on ways the committee can
streamline SBA programs?
Mr. GUTIERREZ. Sure. I love the idea of having more SBA
presence in the field to serve the rural communities. I believe
that there is a lot of programs that were created to duplicate
some of the services that we have been doing for over 40 years.
For example, I believe the Navigators program was designed to
reach those underserved populations. We are already there. We
are already serving the underserved populations from rural
America to Main Street, Saint Louis, Main Street, Kansas City,
to down in Joplin, Missouri. We do all that sort of stuff.
So to have that money duplicated to a whole new agency or
organization, you are recreating the wheel. We have been doing
it for, like I mentioned, over 40 years. During the time that
there was CARES Act money, we were allocated a large amount of
money. Our results doubled or sometimes tripled in some of the
areas.
When that funding did go away, we were left with. We called
what we believe would have been the COVID cliff where the money
dried up, but the demand for our services didn't. We are still
at an all-time high. So the services that we provide, we often
have up to two weeks before someone can come in and see one of
our business counselors in the rural area. But as far as
duplication of process, we are the ones, the first ones here.
We will be the last ones out the door because we are here every
day, doing what we need to do to serve Main Street America.
Mr. WILLIAMS. Thank you. Mr. Ortiz, as you mentioned in
your testimony, assessing the performance of SBA programs is
important to maximizing utility of a taxpayer resource in
aiding and supporting small businesses. So my question to you
would be, what performance metrics would you suggest the SBA
consider implementing to maximize the effectiveness of the SBA
program?
Mr. ORTIZ. Chairman Williams, thank you very much for the
question. In this era of DOGE, I think trying to achieve that
combination of effective and efficient is what we need to do
here. And with the SBA, that is one of the things we need to do
as well. I think it is important that we set metrics to know
that we are successful. One of the biggest metrics that I see
that we can do, and this is a very, very tangible one, is this
failure rate of small businesses. For example, the failure rate
for small business first year is about 20 percent. And when you
look into the number one reason why, it is because they don't
know how to create a business plan.
So again, I go back to the teach the fishermen how to fish.
Let us actually teach them how to create business plans.
Imagine if we could reduce that failure rate in four years from
20 percent to 10 percent. You have 33 million small business
owners. One could actually conceive that you create another 15
million small businesses by doing so. And if each small
business employs two people, you have just added 30 million
more American small businesses or jobs to those small
businesses. And so, there is an important metric there that we
need to take into account, establishing, I guess, this
effective and efficient combination of a $1.5 billion agency.
It is not necessarily about saving money. It is just about
making those dollars work harder for American taxpayers.
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, that is great. And we know that small
business is the backbone of our country; 99 percent of the
businesses are small businesses; 75 percent of the workforce
and payroll is done by small business.
Mr. ORTIZ. That is correct.
Mr. WILLIAMS. And we have got to keep risk and reward in
their life all the time, where they can take some risk and get
reward and not be burdened by regulations in the federal
government. Easier to compete against each other than to
compete against the federal government.
Mr. ORTIZ. That is correct. But----
Mr. WILLIAMS. I think every single day. With that, Mr.
Chairman. They have never been cheaper than they are today, Mr.
Trent, let me tell you that, okay. And thanks for letting me
have fun with you, okay. I yield my time back.
Chairman ALFORD. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I now recognize Mrs.
McIver from New Jersey for five minutes.
Mrs. MCIVER. Thank you, Chairman and Ranking Member for
having this hearing and thank you to our witnesses for joining
us today. This hearing could not come at a better time
considering the rapid changes occurring at the Small Business
Administration. SBA's work has helped turn the dreams of
countless everyday entrepreneurs into reality and has helped
thousands climb up the socioeconomic ladder in America. My home
district, the 10th District in the great state of New Jersey,
is proud to host the SBA New Jersey Regional Office, providing
important services all over the Garden State. For years, SBA
employees have worked hard for the American people, and we owe
it to them to ensure that they are treated fairly while
performing their work for our communities.
As mentioned in this committee hearing today, we have heard
over and over again about the reckless firings of hundreds of
employees at SBA, including the probationary employees, which
is why I introduced the MERIT Act to ensure that these
employees are granted back their jobs immediately and the
backpay.
I have heard from many of you today about the strains on
the Department, which obviously trickle down to the businesses
and the support that they are able to get. So for each of the
witnesses today, I would like to ask, do you support the firing
of these hundreds of employees? We can start with Mr.
Gutierrez.
Mr. GUTIERREZ. Under the current direction of the
administration, I would say yes.
Mrs. MCIVER. It is funny because in your opening statement,
you said that they were short staffed. So, I mean, the SBA is
already short staffed, but you support the firing of these
hundreds of employees that was just recently fired?
Mr. GUTIERREZ. I would say that the majority of the
firings, from what I understand and what I have read, are out
of the D.C. area as opposed to what is going on in the field. I
know that the field has been really underrepresented, and I
believe that when you have any type of transition like this
that could lead to potentially more stability down the line,
that is something that, from a private standpoint, that goes to
efficiency. So, yes, I understand that there has been lots of
jobs left or lost, but to my point earlier, those jobs are
never out in the field, and they were never really affecting a
lot of the regions that they were in.
Mrs. MCIVER. Do you know that for sure?
Mr. GUTIERREZ. Well, I can speak directly to the Missouri
and the Kansas City offices.
Mrs. MCIVER. But not for the entire, not for every office
or every----
Mr. GUTIERREZ. Of course not. I can't speak for across the
nation.
Mrs. MCIVER. Okay, thank you. Mr. Ortiz?
Mr. ORTIZ. I worked at a consulting agency called Boston
Consulting Group. This is something that we used to do day in
and day out, is trying to make sure that we have an
organization that is more effective and efficient for, in this
particular case, it is not an organization, but it is an agency
that works for the federal government who actually is taxpayer
funded. We have a responsibility to our small business owners
to make sure that we have the most effective and efficient not
only agency, but people working for it. I was a small business
owner, and I will tell you that I bet everything I had on my
small business, and I wanted to make sure that every small
business owner that goes to the SBA knows that they have the
most effective and efficient people working in the Agency.
Mrs. MCIVER. It is a yes or no, Mr. Ortiz.
Mr. ORTIZ. Well, that is my answer, ma'am.
Mrs. MCIVER. So you don't--it is yes or no. Do you support
the firings of those people?
Mr. ORTIZ. I support a more effective and efficient agency.
Mrs. MCIVER. Okay, next. Mr. Trent?
Mr. TRENT. No.
Mrs. MCIVER. Thank you.
Mr. TRENT. Yeah, I mean, I come at this work as a veteran
family. And so, I think when I think of SBA, I think of veteran
entrepreneurs. My grandfather served in World War II. My
brothers, both in the Army. One went to, was deployed to Iraq.
You have got thousands and thousands of veteran entrepreneurs
who started businesses. That growth rate in veteran-owned
businesses doubled in the first two years of the Biden
administration. Now you have got those same veterans who served
our country defending the freedoms that a lot of us take for
granted, who have had the rug pulled out from under them as a
result of these mass firings. It is shameful.
Mrs. MCIVER. Thank you so much for that. I want to thank
the witnesses, even those who kind of skated around the
question. But the point of the matter is, is we have to make it
make sense. We cannot sit up here and say that, you know, it
is, we need a more efficient, we need to have more help at SBA.
We hear from different businesses all the time about the delay
in assistance that they can get from SBA sometimes. So,
saying--sitting up here saying that we support the firings or
we don't support, there is not enough staffing, it is just not
all making sense. And we should be supporting our small
businesses and making sure we are delivering to them as much
assistance that we can do. That is our job here, not to be
making things harder for them.
Thank you. With that, I yield back.
Chairman ALFORD. Thank you. I ask unanimous consent for Mr.
Wied from Wisconsin to wave onto this hearing without
objection. So ordered. I now recognize Mr. Wied for five
minutes.
Mr. WIED. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for allowing me to speak
in today's hearing. And thank you to the witnesses who came
here to share their experiences with us. Northeast Wisconsin is
home to a wide variety of small businesses who have faced
economic uncertainty due to an overreaching and overtaxing
federal government. As a former small business owner myself, I
know the challenges you must overcome to operate and grow a
successful small business. Under this previous administration,
small businesses across the country faced increased regulatory
burdens, which made starting, running, and growing a small
business more difficult.
At the same time, the Small Business Administration enacted
policies, such as allowing its employees to work from home,
that negatively impacted small businesses. It is important that
as a committee, we address these broken and burdensome policies
and make Main Street America great again.
My first question is for Mr. Ortiz. In your opening
statement, you spoke about the additional $2 trillion of
regulatory burdens levied on businesses during the Biden
administration. Having fewer employees and less financial
services, small businesses bear an increased burden of these
additional regulations. As Members of the Small Business
Committee, what should our top priority be to reduce these
regulations and provide immediate regulatory relief to small
businesses?
Mr. ORTIZ. Thank you very much for the question,
Congressman. One of the hardest things during the past four
years under the Biden administration for small businesses was
the regulatory environment that existed. About $1.8 billion
that was placed on our businesses across the country. And also
inflation. When you take those two together, it was a huge
burden for small businesses. And quite frankly, when you look
at it, compared to our large corporations, it was an extreme
danger, really, for our small businesses on Main Street. And
so, we have to make sure that we reduce that regulatory
environment.
I heard the Congressman on this side talk about 21 million
small business applications, for example, filed. In our cursory
review of those 21 million small business applications, those
are actually gross applications. So, for example, they are not
actually net applications. For example, if I had a business in
New York and I am trying to flee New York to go to Florida
because there are less taxes and less regulatory environment
there. That Joe's Pizza Place that moves from Texas, excuse me,
from New York down to Florida is considered a new business,
according to the Biden administration numbers of those 21
million applications.
And so, when we look at the net applications, actually,
small businesses didn't grow in those four years of the Biden
administration. They shriveled because of that regulatory
environment and because of high inflation. And so, we have got
to make sure that we address those, too. And the last I
checked, the SBA is not a jobs bank. It is an environment. It
is an agency that needs to serve the American small business
owner, and there are 33 million of them that are struggling
right now. Thank you.
Mr. WIED. All right, thank you. I yield back.
Chairman ALFORD. Thank you, Mr. Wied. I now recognize Ms.
Simon from California for five minutes.
Ms. SIMON. Thank you, Chair, and thank you to the
witnesses. We don't have to argue that small businesses are the
backbone of our economy. I love this committee because we
consistently lift that up. You know, there are many issues that
have been covered in this hearing, and I will repeat some of
them. You know, my concern, the concern of many is that we have
come together as a committee with a profound mission of
advancing opportunities for small businesses in this country.
You know, just in the last few days, we know that 403s and
401(k)s have been thrown out of the window for folks. Folks
have lost so much. We also know that in this committee, we have
said together, cross aisle, we will make a commitment to
disabled folks, to our veterans, to women-owned businesses, on
Main Street, on Telegraph Street, on Broadway Streets. And here
we are having a conversation, trying to figure out how to
advance our way forward. I think we all know what we want. We
want a more efficient sector. We want a government agency that
can show up at the doors, where the websites work.
Within the last two weeks, hundreds of SBA workers have
been fired. Fired. We are talking about closing down six
agencies in major cities in this country. So, I want folks who
are watching to know the dry cleaner, the auto repair dealer,
the barber shop, the woman who called my office yesterday, who
is starting a home care business to make sure that our elders
have trained wonderful MAs at their homes every single day
doing work that many of us have never done. Where is she going
to go? She called from outside of my district to get support.
You know what, she will be on the phone for hours. The
websites, they were already difficult to access three
administrations ago, four administrations ago. What are we
doing? What are we doing?
And now, we have this conversation that has become real,
that tariffs have met the doors of our small businesses. We
know that entrepreneurs are already working day and night to
keep their doors open. We also know that the cost of doing
business in the last couple of weeks has shot up. These
policies are cruel. They are cruel and they don't focus on low-
income, and middle-income, and working-class people who are
trying to get off a government dole, who want to make good for
themselves, and offer the folks in their communities, and their
sons, and their daughters, jobs. They want to send their kids
to college.
We are kicking them in the ribs. Not only the folks who
work for Small Business Agency, but the folks who are on the
ground. You hire an Inspector General and you fire them. You
fire tons of workers, hundreds of workers. And then we have a
policy that chooses to enact tariffs that will destabilize this
country. It is cruel. And we know that. We don't have to
litigate that. Any one of us who have run small businesses, who
have run payrolls. I have ran payrolls since I was 19 years
old. I have hired hundreds of workers. I have trained workers
to leave incarceration in the streets, in foster care, to get
jobs. Whether they are doctors or lawyers or medical providers,
I have done that work. I know how hard it is to keep an
institution alive when you are by yourself.
Fine, close six agencies and see what happens to our
economy. We will see. We will see. When you fire IRS workers,
when you fire frontline workers in communities that are helping
small businesses. I have to ask, do we care? Do we truly care
about folks on the ground?
You know, I have one quick question, which I think I know
the answer to. You know, with all that we are talking about, I
want to say before I ask my question, and it will be quick.
This fiscal year alone in my district, our local SBA office has
served, served on the, like, literally on the front lines, 822
small businesses offering $351 million of direct loans to keep
businesses afloat. If we care, we would advance those
opportunities, not take them away. You are automating support
through these actions.
You know, Mr. Trent, only have a couple of seconds left.
How can having field offices near metro areas be a strategic
choice and also an effective use of taxpayer dollars to serve
small businesses? How can having these offices near metro areas
be a strategic choice to support small businesses? Just a quick
answer.
Mr. TRENT. I will just quickly say that because a lot of
these city centers are hubs for entrepreneurship where there is
a real preponderance of small business activity----
Chairman ALFORD. The gentlewoman's time has expired. The
Chair now recognizes Mr. Downing from Montana.
Ms. SIMON. Thank you, sir.
Mr. DOWNING. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And thank you to the
witnesses. Under the Biden administration, SBA suffered from
serious mismanagement that hindered the Agency's ability to
support small business. You know, through irresponsible work
from home policies, DEI mandates, and voter registration
efforts, Biden's SBA prioritized politics and bureaucracy over
the interests of Main Street America.
First, Mr. Gutierrez, your testimony demonstrates the power
of small business centers, or SBDCs, to assist small businesses
and, you know, produce a return on taxpayer investment. So,
from your experience as the director of Missouri's SBDC, how do
they help support rural businesses which very often lack access
to the information and training needed to thrive?
Mr. GUTIERREZ. Thank you for the question. So, the Missouri
SBDC serves all 114 counties in the city of Saint Louis. It is
a large footprint across the state with 18 business service
centers and two satellite locations. With a staff of 33 full-
time folks. That is simply just not enough.
Mr. DOWNING. Right.
Mr. GUTIERREZ. Unfortunately, we are not able to have a
physical presence. However, with the introduction of different
technologies, such as Zoom, Teams, things of that nature, we
are able to reach more folks. We try to set up regional
meetings where we are meeting with several different counties
at once. We set up a revolving schedule to meet with different
cities, so we are there on a regular basis. But simply the fact
is that we are stretched thin, just like many of our other
partners in the field that are frontline, and we are doing as
best as we can.
I mentioned earlier that sometimes because of staffing
issues and funding issues, it could take up to two weeks before
they are able to see anybody in person at one of our rural
business centers. We are just trying to do a lot with little.
Mr. DOWNING. Well, thank you. So, how did the SBA's work
from home policies under the previous administration negatively
impact your SBDC?
Mr. GUTIERREZ. Quite honestly, they didn't impact us at all
because we were on the ground. We were meeting with the
businesses on a regular basis. We knew that the SBA offices
were there. We helped support them whenever possible. But
during the last three or four years, we often found that
traveling to the SBA offices in both Kansas City and Saint
Louis, unfortunately, the personnel was not there.
Mr. DOWNING. Okay.
Mr. GUTIERREZ. I remember showing up for a meeting and
nobody was there with the meeting with our SBA representative.
So it is just a matter of, you know, we are doing the best we
can to meet the needs of small business in rural America, and
of course, obviously, Main Street America as well.
Mr. DOWNING. Thanks. According to a 2024 report from this
committee, the Biden administration attempted to leverage SBDCs
to promote voter registration activities. Were you ever
approached by the Biden administration to support their voter
registration efforts?
Mr. GUTIERREZ. Fortunately, in the state of Missouri, we
were not.
Mr. DOWNING. Do you believe the administration would have
approached you if Missouri were a more competitive state in
their presidential politics?
Mr. GUTIERREZ. I would like to think that we would not have
been approached, but I can't answer that hypothetical.
Mr. DOWNING. Thank you, Sir. Moving on. Mr. Ortiz, in your
testimony, you emphasize the truly egregious nature of SBA's
political activities under the Biden administration. How have
these activities damaged SBA's reputation as a reliable partner
for small businesses across our country?
Mr. ORTIZ. Thank you, Congressman, for the question.
Unfortunately, small business owners just don't believe and
trust in the SBA anymore. I think they look to other partners
outside of the SBA. And quite frankly, there are a lot of great
partners out there. Goldman Sachs, American Express, for
example, run some fantastic small business programs. Sir, Mr.
Gutierrez runs great programs as well. So, I think what we need
to do is we need to restore confidence in the SBA.
Mr. DOWNING. And what steps can SBA take to restore
confidence with small business?
Mr. ORTIZ. Well, I mentioned already in the testimony, I
think part of it is we got to move resources out to the fields.
Better resources, more effective resources. I think, you know,
certain folks were let go. I would question, and make the
question is maybe they were--maybe they should have been let go
because they weren't exactly the most effective resources for
our small business owners. We need to make sure that we ensure
people who have the experience to be able to make suggestions,
for example, on how to create small business plans for small
business owners. We talk a lot about, and the left talked
about, the Democrats talked a lot about establishing small
businesses need certainty, for example. Well, if they needed
certainty, I wonder why they didn't vote, for example, in the
last budget, you know, the budget bill. None of them voted for
a budget that included the extension of the Tax Cuts and Jobs
Act. If they need certainty----
Mr. DOWNING. And how important do you think that is for
Main Street America, the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act?
Mr. ORTIZ. It is hugely important. In 2017, with the Tax
Cuts and Jobs Act, that provided the impetus for the successful
economy that we had was the two biggest parts of the small
business needs were the tax deduction and the immediate
expense----
Chairman ALFORD. The gentleman's time has expired. We now
recognize Ms. Goodlander from New Hampshire for five minutes.
Mr. DOWNING. Thank you.
Ms. GOODLANDER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And thank you,
Ranking Member Tran. I really believe deeply in the work of the
Oversight Subcommittee. We all swore--one thing that unites us
all in this committee and in Congress is we all swore an oath
to protect and defend this important document, the United
States Constitution. And one of the core responsibilities of
Congress is oversight. It is because oversight is about
transparency, which is essential to public trust. Oversight is
essential to cracking down on waste, fraud, and abuse, which I
am deeply committed to. Oversight is about making sure that our
government works for hardworking people. And that we give the
American people and our small businesses the certainty that
they need and deserve.
Another core Constitutional responsibility of Congress is
the power of the purse, the power to direct and control federal
spending. And that is because we live in a democracy and not in
a monarchy. And so, what we have seen in the last 51 days is an
unprecedented assault on this power of Congress. It is an
assault that is lawless, it is dangerous, and it has had a
really bad impact on so many of our small businesses and
workers across this country and across New Hampshire.
Mr. Trent, you testified that federal funding freezes are a
direct attack on small businesses, on the stability that small
businesses need. And that is certainly what I am hearing from
small businesses across New Hampshire who are unsure about
whether they can keep workers on payroll; who aren't sure how
they are going to provide health care to those workers. I
wondered if you could say more about what you are seeing from
federal funding freezes across the country.
Mr. TRENT. So, we have got hundreds of members that were
directly impacted by those funding freezes and the impact
ripples throughout their own local economy. One member in New
Glarus, Wisconsin, runs a childcare facility. Worried about
state block grant funding. She thought that she might not be
able to make payroll the next month and would have to fire half
of her team.
We have in Oak Ridge, Tennessee, a member who does
groundbreaking research for the government. She logs into her
funding portal one morning and finds that the funding that was
supposed to be powering her work was nowhere to be found.
Totally, totally frozen. We have still got folks who are
wrestling with these freezes, and everyone is just told to be
excited about the incoming deregulation regime. And so, it is
really unfair. And we are certainly hearing from most of our
members that this is something that is impacting them every
single day.
Ms. GOODLANDER. Well, I should say also, the impact of
these freezes has been on SBA workers in the state of New
Hampshire. It is not just here in the Capital. It is across the
country in field offices, which is harming our small
businesses, too.
Mr. Trent, you wrote about a subject that I care deeply
about, fair competition. And I think it is another issue that
should unite us all here in Congress. Our antitrust and
consumer protection laws are as old, the ideas in them are as
old as America. It is about checking power. And here on the
Small Business Committee, we are about bringing power back to
our small businesses at a time when the American economy has
never been more consolidated.
You wrote about the impact of the unprecedented access that
an unelected billionaire in the White House has to the
sensitive data of small businesses and of people across the
United States. You testified that this destroys fair
competition alongside the destruction of public trust. Can you
say more about that?
Mr. TRENT. So there is a reason why Walmart doesn't have
access to the books of the mom-and-pop stores right down the
street from it. There is a reason why no other CEO in this
country has access to the bank statements, taxpayer data, of
small businesses because it is an unbelievably unfair
advantage. And this includes the taxpayer data and bank
statements of some of Elon Musk's actual competitors. And so,
we need to be doing everything in our power to make sure that
the playing field is level for small businesses to compete.
And I will just respond by respectfully disagreeing with
some statements around deregulation and tax code that have been
made with. Deregulation can be good, but very often the
benefits accrue to the largest companies in the world. The
repeal of Dodd-Frank and the lessening of restrictions around
capital requirements inevitably led to the fallout of Silicon
Valley Bank. J.P. Morgan was quick to gobble up thousands and
thousands of depositors while a lot of different small banks
languished. Right. The tax code, 82 percent of surveyed small
business owners believe that the tax code is currently rigged
against them, favoring large corporations. So you have got a
growing sentiment among small business owners that things
aren't fair and we need to do something to fix that.
Ms. GOODLANDER. Thank you.
Chairman ALFORD. The gentlewoman's time has expired.
Ms. GOODLANDER. I yield back.
Chairman ALFORD. All right. Thank you so much. I want to
personally thank each and every one of you. Mr. Gutierrez, Mr.
Ortiz, and Mr. Trent. It was a fascinating conversation today.
Thank you for your testimony and your investment in small
businesses in our future. I want to thank Ranking Member Tran,
and all the Members of this subcommittee, and also the staff,
which really is the impetus and the hard work behind what goes
on here. So thank you, staff. Without objection, Members have
five legislative days to submit additional materials and
written questions for the witnesses to the Chair, which will be
forwarded to the witnesses. I ask the witnesses to please
respond promptly to those. If there is no further business,
without objection, the committee is adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 11:30 a.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.]
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