[House Hearing, 119 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
THE GOVERNMENT
ACCOUNTABILITY OFFICE'S
2025 HIGH RISK LIST
=======================================================================
HEARING
BEFORE THE
COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT
AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
__________
FEBRUARY 25, 2025
__________
Serial No. 119-7
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Printed for the use of the Committee on Oversight and Government Reform
[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Available on: govinfo.gov,
oversight.house.gov or
docs.house.gov
__________
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
58-998 PDF WASHINGTON : 2025
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COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
JAMES COMER, Kentucky, Chairman
Jim Jordan, Ohio Gerald E. Connolly, Virginia,
Mike Turner, Ohio Ranking Minority Member
Paul Gosar, Arizona Eleanor Holmes Norton, District of
Virginia Foxx, North Carolina Columbia
Glenn Grothman, Wisconsin Stephen F. Lynch, Massachusetts
Michael Cloud, Texas Raja Krishnamoorthi, Illinois
Gary Palmer, Alabama Ro Khanna, California
Clay Higgins, Louisiana Kweisi Mfume, Maryland
Pete Sessions, Texas Shontel Brown, Ohio
Andy Biggs, Arizona Melanie Stansbury, New Mexico
Nancy Mace, South Carolina Robert Garcia, California
Pat Fallon, Texas Maxwell Frost, Florida
Byron Donalds, Florida Summer Lee, Pennsylvania
Scott Perry, Pennsylvania Greg Casar, Texas
William Timmons, South Carolina Jasmine Crockett, Texas
Tim Burchett, Tennessee Emily Randall, Washington
Marjorie Taylor Greene, Georgia Suhas Subramanyam, Virginia
Lauren Boebert, Colorado Yassamin Ansari, Arizona
Anna Paulina Luna, Florida Wesley Bell, Missouri
Nick Langworthy, New York Lateefah Simon, California
Eric Burlison, Missouri Dave Min, California
Eli Crane, Arizona Ayanna Pressley, Massachusetts
Brian Jack, Georgia Rashida Tlaib, Michigan
John McGuire, Virginia
Brandon Gill, Texas
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Mark Marin, Staff Director
James Rust, Deputy Staff Director
Mitch Benzine, General Counsel
Billy Grant, Professional Staff Member
Emily Allen, Professional Staff Member
Mallory Cogar, Deputy Director of Operations and Chief Clerk
Contact Number: 202-225-5074
Jamie Smith, Minority Staff Director
Contact Number: 202-225-5051
------
C O N T E N T S
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Page
Hearing held on February 25, 2025................................ 1
WITNESSES
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The Honorable Gene L. Dodaro, Comptroller General, Government
Accountability Office
Oral Statement................................................... 4
Written opening statements and bios are available on the U.S.
House of Representatives Document Repository at:
docs.house.gov.
INDEX OF DOCUMENTS
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* Statement for the Record, Shared Services Leadership
Coalition; submitted by Chairman Comer.
* Report, U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs's Office of the
Inspector General; ``Determination of VHA's Staffing
Shortages''; submitted by Rep. Lynch.
* Article, Business Insider, ``Dogecoin Cocreator Says Musk Is
A Grifter Who Couldn't Run Code''; submitted by Rep.
Pressley.
* Article, New York Times, ``DOGE Quietly Deletes 5 Biggest
Spending Cuts''; submitted by Rep. Subramanyam.
The documents listed are available at: docs.house.gov.
ADDITIONAL DOCUMENTS
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* Questions for the Record: Mr. Dodaro; submitted by Rep. Foxx.
These documents were submitted after the hearing, and may be
available upon request.
THE GOVERNMENT
ACCOUNTABILITY OFFICE'S
2025 HIGH RISK LIST
----------
Tuesday, February 25, 2025
U.S. House of Representatives
Committee on Oversight and Government Reform
Washington, D.C.
The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:36 p.m., in
room 2154, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. James Comer
[Chairman of the Committee] presiding.
Present: Representatives Comer, Gosar, Foxx, Grothman,
Cloud, Higgins, Biggs, Mace, Fallon, Donalds, Perry, Timmons,
Burchett, Greene, Burlison, Crane, Jack, McGuire, Gill,
Connolly, Norton, Lynch, Khanna, Brown, Stansbury, Garcia,
Frost, Lee, Crockett, Subramanyam, Ansari, Bell, Simon, Min,
Pressley, and Tlaib.
Chairman Comer. This hearing of the Committee on Oversight
and Government Reform will come to order. I want to welcome
everyone back.
Without objection, the Chair may declare a recess at any
time.
I now recognize myself for the purpose of making an opening
statement.
Welcome to today's Oversight Committee hearing on the
Government Accountability Office's 2025 High Risk List. Before
we get started, I want to recognize that this will be the
Comptroller General Dodaro's final time testifying on the High
Risk List as he is set to retire later this year. I want to
thank you, Mr. Dodaro, for your decades of service to the
United States. Under your leadership, GAO has done excellent
work to expose waste, fraud, abuse in the Federal Government
and provide recommendations to prevent it.
At the start of each new Congress, the GAO publishes a High
Risk List to update us on programs ripe for congressional
oversight and action. The 38 areas on this year's report all
present either a financial risk of loss of at least $1 billion
taxpayer dollars, or they present a risk involving public
health or safety, delivery of essential services to Americans,
national security concerns, privacy, economic growth, or the
rights of citizens. These potential billions of dollars could
be better utilized for lowering taxes, improving roads, or
making everyday life more affordable for the American people.
The average American works too hard to see tax dollars wasted.
My goal with this hearing is simple: to make sure the taxpayer
dollars is being spent wisely and to get more of it back to
Americans' pockets, where it belongs.
This list helps track the progress of deficiencies of
programs so that Congress can perform oversight to promote
efficient and effective use of taxpayer money. The Federal
Government programs created and funded by Congress must stay
true to their intended purpose, meet the stated objectives, and
remain stewards of taxpayer dollars. However, year after year,
bloated Federal programs managed by the Federal bureaucracy
continue to fall short of their goals and are often plagued by
fraud and abuse.
Despite the excellent reports by GAO each year, there
continues to be rampant waste, fraud, and abuse across the
Federal Government. For more than 30 years, GAO has provided
Members of Congress with this report, yet familiar programs
remain on this list now which were there in the very beginning.
Americans are tired of the Federal Government failing its
report card. The American people elected President Trump to
drain the swamp and rein in the runaway bureaucracy, and
President Trump is delivering on this promise.
President Trump has tasked DOGE with conducting a
governmentwide audit to eliminate Washington waste. GAO's
extensive reports and recommendations to the executive branch
have given DOGE a strong starting point as it takes on the
Federal bureaucracy. DOGE is taking note of GAO's critical work
in identifying trillions of dollars lost to improper payments
made by programs like Medicaid and unemployment insurance, and
now DOGE is taking action to address the root causes of
improper payments. DOGE has recognized GAO's reports on the
need to modernize IT for a more efficient and effective Federal
Government, and Elon Musk and his A team are working on
solutions to make that happen. The GAO's High Risk List
includes the Department of Defense's financial management. DoD,
I will remind everyone, has failed audits for 7 years in a row.
Under President Trump's leadership, Secretary Hegseth is going
to work with DOGE to finally address this.
Now more than ever, GAO's work tells us that we need more
data, more tracking of funds, more oversight and, yes, more
efficiency to know exactly where taxpayer dollars are going. We
are excited to work with the Trump Administration to continue
our mission of cutting out waste, fraud, and abuse. I look
forward to hearing from Comptroller General Dodaro on the good
work GAO is doing and how this Committee and the Trump
Administration could protect the American people's money from
being wasted by their government. Americans want more than
another report telling them about all the problems in
Washington. They want action to right the ship, and that is
just what President Trump, DOGE, and the Republicans in
Congress are doing for the American people.
With that, I now yield to the Ranking Member Connolly for
his opening statement.
Mr. Connolly. I thank the Chair, and I welcome Mr. Dodaro.
This is one of my favorite hearings in the calendar year, and I
think it is also very important. If you really want to get at
waste, fraud, and abuse, and you want to achieve efficiency,
which is the ability to maximize good outcomes while minimizing
waste--wasted time, wasted energy, wasted money--the High Risk
List of GAO is a great place to start. In fact, when this
Committee has paid attention to that list, we have effectuated
serious savings.
I will give the example. Information technology
modernization, which I focused on in the 16 years I have been
in this Committee, we have saved, according to GAO, $31
billion. So, when we talk about efficiency and trying to
achieve results for the American people, you do not do it by
taking a wrecking ball to the entire structure and hope you get
the bad with the good. You, in fact, take out a scalpel and you
cut out the excess, you cut out the waste, and you do it in a
thoughtful and reflective manner.
Unlike what the Chairman has just said, I do not believe
President Trump and Elon Musk have, in fact, done that at all.
They have done mass firings, mass resignations, and attempt at
resignations. To fire everyone in a probationary status does
not depict the good from the bad. It is, in fact, to treat
everyone as the same and hope for the best, and our seed corn
is being lost. We need to have talent for the future. The
approach of DOGE so far, and Elon Musk in particular, actually,
is injurious to the future course of skillsets needed in the
Federal Government. We need higher skillsets. We had to replace
a number of workers in the Federal Government who were going to
retire and are eligible for retirement. Unfortunately, the
approach of this Administration so far, led by Mr. Musk and
DOGE, does not do that at all.
So, I am looking forward to talking about other
opportunities like improper payments, which this Committee
talked about for years. I believe, Mr. Dodaro, that improper
payments add up to something like $281 billion a year. If we
multiply that times 10, that is almost $3 trillion we could
reduce the debt by if we got serious about dealing with
improper payments. When we look at revenue owed to the Federal
Government, owed to IRS, but not collected because of IRS'
inability to audit and collect, that number is anywhere from
$.5 trillion to $1 trillion a year. The last Trump Commissioner
of the IRS said it was $1 trillion a year. Well, if we took
that high number and multiplied it by 10, that is $10 trillion.
That is a third of the national debt almost.
So, there are things we can do. Another one is legacy
systems, which, again, GAO has talked about. They have
highlighted the top 10 candidates for retirement, legacy
systems of IT, which would save over $331 million a year. The
oldest legacy system, I believe you have identified, Mr.
Dodaro, is 51 years old.
So, we can do productive things. We can find common ground,
Democrats and Republicans, but we on this side of the aisle are
never going to support a mindless wrecking ball approach to
``achieving efficiency in the Federal Government.'' That is not
how to do it. It will wreak harm in the American people, it
will damage our form of government, and it is not something
that will ever merit our support. I yield back.
Chairman Comer. The Ranking Member yields back. I am
pleased to welcome today's witness, Comptroller General Gene
Dodaro, who brings more than 50 years of experience at the U.S.
Government Accountability Office and has served as head of the
legislative branch Agency since 2010. The Comptroller General
is serving the final year of his 15-year term. Mr. Dodaro has
testified before Congress 220 times on GAO's recommendations to
improve the performance and operations of the Federal
Government, leading to work that has led to over $1 trillion in
financial benefits to the American taxpayer during his tenure.
Comptroller General Dodaro was influential in developing the
concept and content of the High Risk List, which, over the last
15 years, has averaged financial benefits of about $40 billion
per year. Thank you for joining us. I look forward to our
discussion this afternoon.
Pursuant to Committee Rule 9(g), the witness and his staff
will please stand and raise their right hand.
Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you are
about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
the truth, so help you God?
[A chorus of ayes.]
Chairman Comer. Let the record show that the witnesses
answered in the affirmative. Thank you, and you all may take a
seat.
We appreciate you being here today and look forward to your
testimony. And I want to remind the Members of the Committee
that when the Comptroller General testifies, he has his staff
with him, and sometimes he will yield to his staff to answer
certain questions, so that is why they were all sworn in.
Let me remind the witnesses that we have read your written
statement. It will appear in full in the hearing record. Please
limit your oral statement, sir, to 5 minutes. As a reminder,
please press the button on the microphone in front of you so
that it is on and the Members can hear you. When you begin to
speak, the light in front of you will turn green. After 4
minutes, it will turn yellow. When the red light comes on, your
5 minutes have expired, and we ask that you would please wrap
it up.
So, now I recognize Mr. Dodaro for his opening statement.
STATEMENT OF GENE L. DODARO
COMPTROLLER GENERAL
U.S. GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABILITY OFFICE (GAO)
Mr. Dodaro. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, Ranking
Member Connolly, Members of the Committee. It is very good to
be here today to talk about GAO's high-risk area, which focuses
on fraud, waste, abuse, mismanagement, but also on broad-based
transformation that is needed for a number of our programs to
achieve greater efficiency and effectiveness in government.
There has been some good progress since our last update. As has
been mentioned, we have saved over $760 billion over time
through implementation of recommendations that have been acted
on by the Congress and the Administration on the high-risk
areas.
Today, I want to focus on a couple of things. One, we are
adding one new area this year, and that is improving the
delivery of disaster assistance. Storms are becoming more
frequent and intense. In the last 10 years, the Federal
Government has appropriated $500 billion for disaster
assistance. FEMA is stretched way too thin. They are managing
right now over 600 disasters. Some of them go back 20 years.
The system is fragmented. There are over 30 different Federal
agencies involved in delivering assistance. There is confusion,
overlapping regulations. We need reform in that area, and that
is why we are highlighting it.
There are also opportunities to better manage the cost of
the Federal Government. As has been mentioned by the Chair and
Ranking Member, improper payments remains a very intractable
problem. The last 6 years, there has been over $150 billion
every year in improper payments. That is not even the complete
number. There are a number of programs that are not even
reporting. There is $600 billion net tax gap between the amount
of taxes owed and taxes collected by the IRS. Voluntary
compliance is hovering around 82-85 percent. We can do better
in that area to make sure the government is getting its fair
share of revenue.
There are many major acquisitions across the government,
including DoD weapon systems. They are on the High List. The
Department of Energy, contracting for nuclear development and
cleanup of our weapons complex. These contracts are
consistently overrun, over budget, and delays occur, and do not
deliver on the promises. Information technology remains a
governmentwide problem. It is designated a governmentwide list.
Acquisitions and operations, the Government spends over $100
billion a year. Most of that goes to maintain existing legacy
systems and not to new technology, so the government is not
harnessing the power.
Just to give a couple of examples, FAA has 138 air traffic
control systems. Thirty-one percent of those systems are not
sustainable by FAA's own amounts. There are not enough spare
parts. There is not enough money. There are not enough plans.
And their plans to develop many of these systems are not
intended to resolve the problem for 10 or 13 years. We have got
the VA electronic healthcare system. They are on their fourth
try. They have spent over $12 billion already. We have only
deployed the system to 4 medical centers, another 5 in the next
year, but there are 160 more to go, so these are issues.
Cybersecurity, I designated that a high-risk area across
Federal Government in 1997, added a critical infrastructure
protection in 2003. It is still a problem. It has grown in
intensity, and the government is not acting at a pace
commensurate with the evolving grave threat, not just to the
Federal Government's information systems, but the critical
infrastructure protection, the electricity grid, water systems,
our telecommunications network, all across the 16 critical
infrastructure sections of the United States.
There are many other areas on the list that deal with
public health and safety, oversight of medical products. We
have got drug shortages. We have got not enough inspections of
drug manufacturers, food safety. The Bureau of Prisons is in
significant disrepair and understaffed, and I can go into many
of these areas during the discussion. But the main message here
is that action and heightened attention on these issues can
save billions of dollars, improve public health and safety, and
also go to the heart of improving the service and the
effectiveness and efficiency and a return on investment and
build better trust in our government institutions.
I thank you for the opportunity to be here today and would
enjoy entertaining your questions.
Chairman Comer. Thank you. I now recognize Dr. Gosar from
Arizona.
Mr. Gosar. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I extend the same
thing, Mr. Dodaro. I always look to this hearing to talk to you
because you have always been good to us and always been very
fair. So, thank you for doing that.
If I had to highlight just one Department of the
Government's efficiency accomplishment so far, it would be
proving that the waste, fraud, and abuse infecting the Federal
Government is not just isolated to one department. It is
government wide. Since the last GAO high risk report in 2023,
not a single item has been removed from that list. The Biden
Administration contaminated nearly every agency and dug our
Nation deeper and deeper in debt. This High Risk List includes
improper Medicaid payments and extravagant DoD acquisitions to
fund endless wars.
For 3 years, the Families First Coronavirus Response Act
provided FMAP funding to states to continuously enroll Medicaid
beneficiaries regardless of eligibility or their private
insurance. According to the Kaiser Foundation, enrollment in
Medicaid and CHIP grew by 23.1 million or 32.4 percent between
February 2020 and April 2023, and once again, the DoD failed
its seventh consecutive audit. Perhaps we should not authorize
Abrams tanks and send them over to Ukraine to be instantly
destroyed.
Mr. Dodaro, the High Risk List also mentions the
infrastructure of the Bureau of Prisons. Bureau of Prisons is
planning to close seven facilities and three satellite camps
due to budget constraints. I know who is being empowered with
emergency funds, ICE, who needs more detention beds. My
question for you, would allowing ICE to use these BOP
facilities as detention centers help generate additional
revenue and expand the use of excess Federal property, perhaps
even improve the infrastructure?
Mr. Dodaro. We have not taken a look at that issue yet. I
understand what your concerns are, and I do not know. We will
be taking a look and I am sure asked to look at how ICE is
using those facilities and what effect that is having, both
positive and potentially negative, and we will have to see. But
I am deeply concerned about the state of the prisons. They are
very understaffed, and there is excessive use of overtime, and
that can lead to both safety concerns for their staff as well
as incarcerated individuals. Despite the First Step Act, they
have not really focused on evaluating programs that are
intended to help people transition back into society and not
prevent recidivism from occurring and them ending back in
prison shortly after their release. So, I do not know to what
extent ICE using the facilities will complicate or potentially
have other effects on that area, but we will look at it.
Mr. Gosar. And to follow up on that is, if you regard this
as a transfer, could you tell us how you would transfer that
property too?
Mr. Dodaro. Yes. I am not sure. I would have to look at the
ownership of who owns the prisons.
Mr. Gosar. Now, the report also flags that the FDA must do
a better job to protect public health and improve its oversight
of temporary use or ``unapproved medical products like drugs,
vaccines during emergencies.'' Question for you. In your
investigation of this lack of an FDA oversight, did you uncover
why the FDA approved the emergency use of the experimental
COVID shot, but not ivermectin for the treatment of COVID?
Mr. Dodaro. Let me ask, Jessie. Let me call our expert up
in that area. It is Jess Farb. Ms. Jess Farb is managing
director of our healthcare work.
Mr. Gosar. Thanks, Jess.
Ms. Farb. Congressman, we have not looked into the use of
EUAs for ivermectin or vaccines at this point. We have not been
asked to do that yet by Congress.
Mr. Gosar. Well, one of the things that we are going to
have to really look at is improve FDA because there is trouble
all the way around, and I think both sides can agree on that
one. The report recommends the collection of tax payments for
oil and gas leases to help ``improve the government's fiscal
position.'' Would you agree that funds generated from the taxes
on oil and gas leases on Federal lands would help reduce the
deficit?
Mr. Dodaro. Yes.
Mr. Gosar. So, let us approve some more oil and gas leases?
Mr. Dodaro. No. Our finding is that it is already being
produced.
Mr. Gosar. OK.
Mr. Dodaro. And the government is not collecting. There is
no assurance it is collecting the amount that is already due. I
am not suggesting they produce more, but for what is being
produced, royalty payments are due to the government. The
Interior Department systems are in kind of disarray, and it is
not clear that they are collecting the revenue that is due to
the government.
Mr. Gosar. Thank you, Mr. Dodaro. I yield back.
Chairman Comer. The Chair recognizes the Ranking Member for
5 minutes.
Mr. Connolly. Thank you. Mr. Dodaro, welcome back. You have
been doing high risk reports to this Committee for a long time,
and on the High Risk List this year, there are how many items
again?
Mr. Dodaro. There are 38 items.
Mr. Connolly. Thirty-eight, and how many has Congress taken
action on?
Mr. Dodaro. There are quite a few. I mean, we took off
last----
Mr. Connolly. Well, quite a few is a little general.
Mr. Dodaro. Well, I can ask----
Mr. Connolly. Nineteen, 20?
Mr. Dodaro. I would say probably 20 is a fair statement,
20.
Mr. Connolly. Twenty.
Mr. Dodaro. Overtime.
Mr. Connolly. So, Congress has not ignored the High Risk
List.
Mr. Dodaro. No.
Mr. Connolly. But there are some perennial favorites that
keep on coming back for one reason or another, are there not?
Mr. Dodaro. That is correct.
Mr. Connolly. And what would be couple of examples of that?
Mr. Dodaro. Well, there are some charter members who have
been on since 1990.
Mr. Connolly. Can I ask you to speak close to the
microphone?
Mr. Dodaro. Yes, sure. There are some charter members who
have been on since 1990, Medicare, for example. The DoD weapon
systems has been on the list since 1990. Medicaid joined in
2003 along with real property across Federal Government. As I
mentioned earlier, put cybersecurity on in 1997, and so those
are some of the ones that were early additions to the list. And
I want to be clear--there have been improvements in some of
those areas, but they are not to the point where risk is being
managed properly, and we still have opportunities to do better.
Mr. Connolly. All right. If we adopted all of the
recommendations GAO put forward on the High Risk List, any idea
what the savings could be to the United States taxpayer?
Mr. Dodaro. Over $200 billion.
Mr. Connolly. Two-hundred billion dollars a year or total?
Mr. Dodaro. Total, but some of them would continue.
Mr. Connolly. Right. OK.
Mr. Dodaro. And that is a very conservative estimate. I
think it could be more, much more.
Mr. Connolly. Well, just for example, the savings from IT
modernization, which has been on your High Risk List, is $31
billion, yes. And by the way, it is a gift that keeps on
giving----
Mr. Dodaro. That is correct.
Mr. Connolly [continuing]. If we focus on real efficiency.
Are you familiar with the Taxpayer Funds Oversight and
Accountability Act, previously known as the CFO Vision Act?
Mr. Dodaro. Yes.
Mr. Connolly. And would that make the Federal Government
work better for the American people, in your opinion, if we
adopted it?
Mr. Dodaro. Yes. Yes. That was based upon recommendations
from a GAO study where we studied the impact of the CFO Act
over the 30 years of its implementation and some suggestions to
make it stronger.
Mr. Connolly. And does that bill also address improper
payments and fraud?
Mr. Dodaro. With some additional provisions added, it could
and should, and I am happy to provide additional suggestions to
the Committee in that regard.
Mr. Connolly. Yes. Could you just talk a little bit about
improper payments? Refresh our memory what we mean by
``improper payments.'' We do not mean the government
deliberately goes out and throws money from the rooftop.
Mr. Dodaro. No, that is not in the official statutory
definition, and I would not support that.
Mr. Connolly. For the record, neither would I.
Mr. Dodaro. The official definition is, it is a payment
that should not have been made or was made in the wrong amount.
Some of them can actually be an underpayment. Most, however,
are overpayments, probably 90 percent of them. They happen when
money is given to somebody who is really not eligible to
receive the benefit or the payment calculation is incorrect----
Mr. Connolly. Right.
Mr. Dodaro [continuing]. Or somebody submits a bill for a
service that was never provided. And, of course, some of the
improper payments could be fraud, and fraud is broader, and the
improper payments really are only estimate of about 80 Federal
programs. They are a very small subset. They should be bigger.
But fraud occurs throughout the Federal Government, so fraud
can occur beyond the improper payments.
Mr. Connolly. Final point. It just seems to me that part of
the problem with improper payments in the Federal Government is
there is no sort of incentive or reward system in the Federal
workforce to reward you for catching improper payments and
trying to deflect them. The reward system is getting money out
the door, understandably, and providing benefits and services
to needy citizens. Real quickly, could you comment on that----
Mr. Dodaro. Yes.
Mr. Connolly [continuing]. And how we address that?
Mr. Dodaro. That is exactly right. I mean, more people in
the Federal agencies have gotten in trouble for not paying
someone than they have from paying someone that they should not
have paid, and the incentives need to be changed. The other
complicating factors--many of these programs are administered
through the states, so there needs to be incentives at the
states. And Labor Department, for example, has offered a
suggestion that there be legislation to give states the ability
to keep five percent of whatever they were covering in proper
payments and use it to strengthen their payment integrity
processes, and I support that.
Mr. Connolly. I thank the Chair.
Chairman Comer. The Chair now recognizes Dr. Foxx from
North Carolina.
Ms. Foxx. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and thank you,
Mr. Dodaro, and we will miss you when you retire. We appreciate
you.
Last year, North Carolina saw immense devastation caused by
Hurricane Helene with over a 100 lives lost and nearly $60
billion in damage. While FEMA did show up to provide aid, I
give FEMA and the Federal response to Helene an overall grade
of a D-plus. It is no surprise that ``improving the delivery of
Federal disaster assistance'' was added this year to the GAO
High Risk List, which states that attention is also needed to
improve processes for assisting survivors. I could not agree
more.
One of the biggest problems I recognized while helping
constituents affected by the storms, is how FEMA's
representatives on the ground are telling people what the
Agency cannot do rather than what they can do. FEMA has a lot
of experience dealing with disasters, yet it seems to have
learned shockingly few lessons along the way. There should be
an information road map available to those affected by
disasters, including what they can expect from FEMA. This road
map should include how much and what kind of aid they can
expect to receive, a timeline for aid, information on all
available assistance, and what types of decisions will have to
be made in the coming weeks, months, and years. What
recommendations do you have for FEMA to ``improve processes for
assisting survivors?''
Mr. Dodaro. I will give a couple of examples, and I will
turn to Chris Currie, who is our expert in the area, and he can
enumerate all these suggestions that we have.
One of the things is, we think FEMA gets involved in too
many disasters. Right now, it is based on a per capita amount
of $1.86 per capita, has not been adjusted over time. So, they
get involved in a lot more disasters that if they effectively
evaluated the state and local ability to do it, we estimate
they could be non-involved in about 27 fewer disasters, which
would help deal with this issue. So, I will turn to Chris for
other examples.
Mr. Currie. Yes, ma'am. The way you described it, I could
not agree more with. The problem is we have a system that was
created to do good, but it is not helping the survivors that it
is supposed to help, and your description is right on. The
problem is the survivor and the community has to pull the
assistance out of FEMA and undergo a very complicated process
that is often fragmented across multiple agencies, and it is
very confusing, and survivors get worn down, understandably.
So, in terms of our recommendations, we actually have a number
of options to simplify the system, but also to reform how the
Federal Government provides this assistance so communities and
survivors can get it quicker and more easily.
Ms. Foxx. I have a follow-up question I will send to you
all because I am not going to have enough time for you to
answer that, and I need to ask another question. We have worked
very hard in this Committee on Postal Service reform, and we
are concerned that the High Risk List notes the Postal Service
lost $16 billion in fiscal years 2023 and 2024 and has $181
billion in debts and liabilities. The Postal Service cannot
continue operating as it has with its financials in such bad
shape. What suggestions do you have for us to shore up the
Postal Service so it can continue to provide critical service,
especially in rural communities like the ones most of us
represent?
Mr. Dodaro. Yes. There is a basic expectation gap between
the Congress and the Postal Service, and I think that gap has
to be closed. Congress wants certain delivery expectations set
for the Postal Service, but there is no way they are going to
generate the revenue necessary in order to meet those
expectations that Congress has for it. So, I think there has to
be a negotiation between Congress and the Postal Service, say,
this is what we want you to do. How much can you generate? They
need to keep trying to reduce their cost and they have had some
success, but not a lot. And I think that is fair to ask them to
reduce their cost, but at some point Congress has to say, here
is what we want and here is what we are willing to help
contribute to pay to keep that level of service going.
Ms. Foxx. It is my understanding that they have done not
nearly enough to automate and to reduce those costs. Do you
have some suggestions in that area?
Mr. Dodaro. Yes. This is Dave Marroni, our director in
charge of postal work.
Mr. Marroni. So, they have made some initial steps to
transform their network, but there still is a lot that remains
to be done. The network is antiquated. They are in the process
of trying to transform it, but there have been some problems in
that transformation. In certain areas where it has been
implemented, in Atlanta and Richmond, you have seen declines in
service performance as the rollout was done. So, it is really
important for the Postal Service to focus on what are the
lessons from that so as they continue this transformation,
which is really important to get at your point, it is rolled
out as smoothly as possible, so you both get those gains, and
you do not get the significant hiccups that happened with the
first two implementations.
Ms. Foxx. Mr. Chairman, thank you. I do want to follow up
with our witnesses, particularly on the Post Office.
Chairman Comer. Absolutely.
Ms. Foxx. It affects every American, and it is very
critical to us. Thank you very much.
Chairman Comer. Absolutely.
Very good. The Chair recognizes Ms. Norton from Washington,
DC.
Ms. Norton. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. For this year's high
risk update, the Government Accountability Office found that
inadequate staffing and skills gaps contributed to more than
half of the Nation's highest risk challenges. Mr. Dodaro, why
are Federal workers such an important part of the equation in
tackling high-risk areas?
Mr. Dodaro. Having the right numbers of staff with the
right skills is very essential. VA healthcare is on the high
risk for not providing timely and quality healthcare. There is
a real shortage of mental health providers. We have veterans
that need suicide care, for example. Last I checked, there were
17 veterans a day committing suicide, so we need well-qualified
mental health providers just in that area alone. You need
guards that are well qualified at the Bureau of Prisons. You
need good people managing our nuclear weapons complex, security
experts, et cetera. You need software engineers at DoD, and I
could go on and on. So, these areas--and we have had strategic
human capital across the Federal Government on our High Risk
List since 2001.
I have been very concerned about the Federal workforce does
not have the proper skills that are needed to address many of
these important areas that are providing critical services to
the American people and at the heart of providing public
safety. For example, there are not enough inspectors at FDA to
inspect foreign drug manufacturers. They only have 22 percent
of the manufacturers, yet most of our drugs now come from
foreign manufacturers in China and India and other countries,
and we are not inspecting them the way we should.
Our food supply, 15 percent imported, but in some
categories, like seafood, it is over 80 percent, fresh fruits
and vegetables over half, and we do not have enough inspections
being done on our food supplies either. EPA is not doing enough
assessments to assess toxic chemicals before they are
introduced into society. So, these are reasons that we have
this issue on the High Risk List because they do not have the
right people and enough skills in order to execute their
mission to protect the American people.
Ms. Norton. Well, unfortunately, Elon Musk and the
Department of Government Efficiency missed the memo on when
they came to power and began terrorizing the Federal workers
that serve the American people day in and day out. And let us
not forget that a third of these Federal workers are veterans.
Instead of focusing their efforts on recruiting and retaining
talented people to put their skills to work, solving the
Nation's challenges, Elon Musk offered an illegal scam buyout
to millions of Federal employees. That will only make the
government staffing challenges worse. And last Saturday, he was
at it again, threatening on social media that all Federal
workers would lose their jobs if they failed to reply to an
email and report what they did last week.
Mr. Dodaro, is it a best management practice to throw
around indiscriminate threats of mass firings, regardless of
job duties and mission needs?
Mr. Dodaro. Yes, I would not consider it a best practice,
but I have spent most of my career, decades, butting heads with
the bureaucracies across the government. There is a need for
change, but how you do it matters, and going about it in the
way that is being done now can cause some short-term problems
for the government because it can create other vulnerabilities,
unintended vulnerabilities. The way I have suggested in the
past that this be done, is the government figure out what
functions it does not want to do anymore, then you can deal
with the people in those functions or ones that do not have the
skills that you need anymore. But it should be done in a
respectful way, and it should be done also in a way that does
not hurt the Federal Government in the long term.
We need people to be coming into government. Whatever any
administration decides to do with their policies and what they
want the government to do, at the end of the day, they are
going to need good people to be able to do it, and not enough
younger people have been coming into the government with the
kind of skills that are needed going forward. So, you have to
be careful that you do not disincentivize people to want to
give public service because public service is important to
implementing any policy initiative by any administration, no
matter what the policy is. I am agnostic on the policy, that is
for elected officials, but I have seen good policies that do
not get implemented effectively because you do not have the
right people.
Chairman Comer. Very good. The gentlelady's time has
expired. The Chair recognizes Mr. Higgins from Louisiana.
Mr. Higgins. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Dodaro, thank you
for your service. What a very impressive record, good sir, and
you are a unique individual to have been able to make it
through so many significant changes in the executive branch and
in Congress. So, we thank you for your service, and I mean
that.
I would like to dig into two areas in my brief 5 minutes
with you, sir. One will be the Department of Defense, but
before we get there, I like to talk to you more about the
United States Postal Service. You mentioned that Congress
should clearly identify to the United States Postal Service
what we need, what we expect, and I would ask you, did we not
do that in 1970 with the Postal Reorganization Act? When the
Postal Service was reformed and redefined as an independent
Agency and allowed great autonomy and independence from
Congress, they were essentially, and I am simplifying here, and
I ask you to correct me if I am wrong, good sir. But
essentially, the Post Office was given great autonomy and the
ability to run itself, set its own fees and the price of
stamps, and establish its own financial conduct within the
Postal Service. It was essentially set up as a government-owned
corporation. And part of that deal, the 1970 law, required
performance to deliver for the American people and a net
neutral fiscal performance or a breakeven fiscal performance.
So, I would say that the United States Postal Service has
failed to comply with existing law, but perhaps I am
oversimplifying that, and I yield to the gentleman. Would you
please respond?
Mr. Dodaro. Yes, sure. Absolutely. Fundamentally,
structurally, your description is sound, and it was intended
for the Postal Service to operate like a private entity, all
right, until you run into situations where, if you are a
private entity, this Postal Service facility, we want to close
this Post Office in this rural area.
Mr. Higgins. If the gentleman will yield for a question to
his comment here?
Mr. Dodaro. Sure.
Mr. Higgins. But there was nothing in the 1970 law that
prohibited the manifestation of private competition, so any
reasonable corporate structure----
Mr. Dodaro. Right.
Mr. Higgins [continuing]. Would have anticipated the
manifestation of private competition. So, I would say that the
Post Office was never insulated from the impact of potential
private competition, nor are they at this time right now. So,
why would we give them the autonomy of corporate structure
without the responsibility to perform within the reasonable
guidelines of corporate structure, including consideration of
private competition? And I yield back to the gentleman.
Mr. Dodaro. Yes. Well, there are certain areas they have
competition in and certain areas they are a monopoly, First
Class Mail being a classic example of the monopoly. All I am
saying is that over time, as they moved to exercise their
autonomy, there were certain things that Congress balked at.
Closing of postal facilities was one. Moving to 5-day delivery
and packages on 6 days as opposed to 6-day delivery, Congress
balked on. And so that is the type of thing that I think we
need to negotiate around those particular things that a private
sector entity would do, but there is not an appetite for the
type of changes that would occur. I will ask my expert to add
on.
Mr. Higgins. Would you concur, and it will be my final
point, and then please answer. Like, how would you assess the
USPS performance regarding their mandate by law to break even
for decades they have failed?
Mr. Marroni. They are not self-sustaining. They have an
unsustainable business model, which is why there needs to be a
definition of what level of service going forward, as Mr.
Dodaro was saying, and also some figuring out of how is the
Postal Service, with those services, going to support it?
Because right now, they are not financially self-sufficient.
They are supposed to be.
Mr. Dodaro. First Class Mail is not coming back. I mean,
that is their most profitable area, is First Class Mail. It is
not coming back due to email and other electronic changes, and
they have not been able to cut costs fast enough to meet these
services. And so, absent some additional compromise between
Congress on delivery and perhaps some contribution to them or a
different model for what they have. Right now, the model is not
going to work, and eventually, what is going to happen is that
in 5 years or so, their money that they have to pay post-
retirement healthcare benefits is going to run out.
Mr. Higgins. It is unsustainable. Words of wisdom. Mr.
Chairman, my time has expired. I yield.
Chairman Comer. Thank you. The Chair recognizes Mr. Lynch
from Massachusetts.
Mr. Lynch. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Dodaro, good to see
you. They tell me that you have testified over 220 times. I
think Mr. Connolly and I have been there for most of them, and
I just want to say how grateful I am, on behalf of the American
taxpayer, for your good work. I can say that throughout your
time here, you have been honest and fastidious with your
reports and thorough. I would say that you have been strictly
nonpartisan throughout your time, and that has been helpful as
well during some tough issues. Just the fact that you are a
straight shooter has helped us with our work on our end. I
think, honestly, you have been a shining example of what a
Federal employee, a Federal worker, and a government taxpayer
watchdog should be, and so I wish you well. I am sorry that you
are leaving because we need you now more than ever. I am just
hoping that a little bit of Gene Dodaro rubbed off on those
people sitting behind you, and I think that may be the case.
Mr. Chairman, I ask unanimous consent to submit for the
record a report of the Inspector General of the Veterans
Affairs Administration: ``The OIG Determination of Severe
Occupational Staffing Shortages at the VA, Fiscal Year 2024.''
Chairman Comer. Without objection, so ordered.
Mr. Lynch. So, Gene, if you would, we had a report that was
filed by Mike Missal, who was the Inspector General for the VA
until he was fired by President Trump a little about, I do not
know, maybe 3 weeks ago. Anyway, he reported that the VA Health
Administration, which cares for more than 9 million veterans in
1,400 healthcare facilities and 170 VA medical centers, was
experiencing severe occupational staffing shortages of about
3,000 people--2,959 people--with over 82 percent of the
facilities reporting severe shortages of medical officers and
nurses. So, the nurses are like the Marine Corps of our health
system, and especially at the VA, they do it all. Doctors take
the credit, but the nurses do the work. And what did President
Trump do? And Elon Musk came in and fired another thousand.
That was right when they came in, which included healthcare
workers, employees who process benefit claims, workers who
staff the VA suicide crisis line, with record suicides among
veterans. And then just yesterday, the President went back and
fired an additional 1,400, so now we are down 5,400 employees
at the VA. This is something we used to agree on between
Republicans and Democrats. Can you offer us an assessment on
how these terminations will impact veterans and their families?
Mr. Dodaro. We are going to take a look at that because it
is on the high-risk area, but it is not going to help the
situation. We already had them listed as having shortages in
those areas, and they have difficulty retaining people. I am
very concerned about mental health and suicide prevention. We
are looking at the crisis hotline right now at the request of
the Senate. We are due to issue some reports. I will ask Jess
Farb to add her views. She is our Managing Director for
Healthcare and follows this carefully, but it is a reason to be
concerned.
Mr. Lynch. Yes.
Ms. Farb. Well, Congressman as----
Mr. Lynch. Gene, you can be a little more forthcoming
because you are retiring, so if you want to have at it, let me
know what you think--but, ma'am, go ahead. I am sorry.
Ms. Farb. OK. Sure.
Mr. Lynch. I apologize.
Ms. Farb. So, I would say that, obviously, VA has struggled
with just making sure that veterans get timely access to
healthcare. And so, not having the right number of people with
the right skill sets and the right ability to treat veterans is
going to affect what has already been a longstanding issue at
the VA in terms of timeliness of care, as we have reported in
the past, about how long veterans have waited. So, the people
that schedule the appointments are very essential to making
sure that veterans are able to get care, both in the VA
facilities and in the community.
Mr. Lynch. Yes. The other thing that worries me is right
now, I asked the VA how much of a backlog do you have on
claims, cases coming, veterans coming in, especially with the
PACT Act. What is the backlog of cases at the VA because it has
taken forever for people to get appointments. And they told me
they had a backlog today of 250,000 cases at the VA. They just
laid off an additional 2,400 people. So, I mean, can you
surmise what the impact that is going to create?
Mr. Dodaro. Well, it is going to create or make an already
bad situation likely worse. VA handling of disability issues is
also on the High Risk List. We have had it on the High Risk
List for a long time, and there was a point in time, and I hope
it is a little better now, but where if you went for an appeal,
it takes up to 7 years to get your appeal resolved.
Mr. Lynch. Exactly.
Mr. Dodaro. People would die before they would get a
decision on their disability claim area, and the PACT Act did
increase their workload. Now, I have not looked specifically at
what has happened, but we will as part of our work, but I know
the situation was not good to begin with.
Mr. Lynch. All right. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you,
Madam Chair, for your indulgence, and thank you, Mr. Dodaro.
Ms. Mace. [Presiding.] And generosity.
Mr. Lynch. Generosity, yes, and indulgence.
Ms. Mace. Uh-huh. OK. Thank you. I will now recognize
myself for 5 minutes.
Thank you, Comptroller General Dorado, for being with us
today, and I apologize for you having to bear witness to the
tantrums that unfolded in this Committee earlier today. The
Oversight Committee has convened today to discuss something
throwing the left into a tailspin, spending more time
protesting and disrupting official proceedings than
legislating, all because we are talking about cutting waste,
fraud, and abuse and government mismanagement.
For decades, this was not a partisan issue. You know who
championed cutting back on waste, fraud, and abuse? No other
than President Obama and Joe Biden. In 2011, Obama signed
Executive Order 13576 to create a Government Accountability and
Transparency Board, under Joe Biden's watch, to root out waste,
to root out fraud, and to root out abuse in Federal agencies.
Joe Biden himself even admitted back then, ``Cutting waste,
fraud, and abuse has been something Washington has talked about
for decades, but now, more than ever, what the American people
need is action.'' But now the left has done a complete 180,
claiming cutting waste, fraud, and abuse is fascist. They say
it is a threat to democracy. They even say our Nation's chief
executive should not be allowed to direct or control the
executive branch, or even ask an unelected bureaucrat who works
for him what they did at work last week. We just want to know
what are the top five things you did at the office. You should
know in about 5 minutes, and if you cannot answer that
question, you probably should not be employed by the Federal
Government or any company or organization that would never hire
you.
Their disruption has nothing to do with policy and
everything to do with Trump derangement syndrome, and I fear
that their disruption is pathological. It is about their need
to oppose anything tied to President Trump. They would rather
protect bloated bureaucracy and light our tax dollars on fire
than admit he was right. So, I will repeat, they have Trump
derangement syndrome, and I fear this is terminal.
Now, turning to an issue of great importance to me, as
Chairwoman of the Cybersecurity, Information Technology, and
Government Innovation Subcommittee. Mr. Dodaro, the 2025 High
Risk List highlights serious failures in Federal cybersecurity
and technology modernization, as you are, I am sure, fully
aware. Federal agencies spend billions of dollars a year on
software without a comprehensive or detailed understanding of
what they are purchasing and how it compares to what they are
already paying for. In other words, a lot of duplication. GAO
has reported without improvements to IT portfolio and
investment reviews, saying the Federal Government will likely
continue to expand resources and IT investments that do not
meet the needs of the government or the public. What steps
should agencies take right now to actually understand the
software they are buying instead of just throwing taxpayer
dollars at it hoping for the best? What is your advice?
Mr. Dodaro. Yes. I am going to turn to Carol Harris, who is
our Director in Information Technology, and she can enumerate
for you.
Ms. Mace. Terrific.
Ms. Harris. Thank you for the question. So, a number of
things that can be done. First of all, with regard to IT
management, I mean, we have a major issue where we have $100
billion annually going to the IT budget across the Federal
Government. Eighty percent of that money is going toward
sustaining old systems, so we have to tackle legacy issues.
Ms. Mace. How old are some of these systems?
Ms. Harris. Some of these systems range up to even like 50
years old, so they are old and they need to be----
Ms. Mace. These are the legacy systems, right, the real old
technology?
Ms. Harris. Correct. These are the legacy systems.
Ms. Mace. What kind of technology were they coded with?
Ms. Harris. With COBOL, for example, and other antiquated
computer languages. And that is part of the issue, where now
for these particular systems, the government is having a
difficult time finding staff and knowledgeable people to
actually work on these programs, because these computer
languages are out of date.
Ms. Mace. After I taught myself HTML in college, because
there were not college classes on how to code HTML. I consider
it a real programming language--some people may not--but I
learned COBOL, it was back in 1999. I worked on Y2K stuff, and,
I mean, that was almost 26 years ago, 27 years ago, when I did
that. The fact that we are still using it decades later. Real
quickly, I only have 45 seconds left. What are some of the
security and operational risks resulting from the last
Administration's failure to review and manage Federal
Government IT?
Ms. Harris. Well, when we take a look at those legacy
systems, for example, because we are continuing to manage them,
there are cybersecurity vulnerabilities associated with those,
as well as the staffing challenges as well as just increased
costs associated with maintaining these. So, the security
vulnerabilities in maintaining these old systems are very real,
and we have to address them, and we have made multiple
recommendations. We have 700 recommendations that are still
open that need to be addressed immediately.
Ms. Mace. And thank you both for your time today. I will
yield back. I will now recognize Mr. Khanna for 5 minutes.
Mr. Khanna. Thank you, Madam Chair. First, I wanted to
comment on the earlier debate where Representative Grothman and
Representative Greene said that some of these cuts that Musk
and DOGE are making are good and making our country more
efficient. And our side said, no, there are Federal workers who
are being fired without cause and they are not the poor
performers that they are. And I guess my question for the
Chair, and I know Chair Comer is not here, is, why not have
Elon Musk come before this Committee and make the case? I mean,
why not have Representative Greene ask him to explain why she
thinks the situation is good and have the confidence to explain
that to the American public? And we can ask him questions about
where we think that he has violated the law, but I do not
understand what the reluctance is to have Mr. Musk come here.
If you are so confident on your side that what he is doing is
in the interest of the American people, why not have speech and
have him here? And I hope that the Chair will consider that
request.
Mr. Dodaro, I have great respect for you, and I have great
respect for your service, but with due respect, this is not a
time for caution in speaking out. Your predecessor, Elmer
Staats, took Gerald Ford to court because Ford was not willing
to comply with the Impoundment Act. This was not a decision
that she made, that Staats made, but lawyers, Staats spoke out.
And I want to ask you whether what you think the President is
doing in pausing these payments automatically is a violation of
the Impoundment Act.
Mr. Dodaro. Yes, we are looking at that issue. We have
already sent letters to the Administration asking them to
explain their legal position to us, and we will be making
rulings as to whether or not these issues violated the
Impoundment Control Act or not.
Mr. Khanna. When will you be making that?
Mr. Dodaro. As soon as we can get the information from the
Administration. We are following the court cases as well, so we
are evaluating the court filings.
Mr. Khanna. What if they refuse to give you the
information?
Mr. Dodaro. Well, we have the information that is available
through the court filings of what their legal positions are for
many of these issues that are subject to the litigation.
Mr. Khanna. Would you say within 45 days, because that is
the rescission. I mean, they have about 45 days. I mean, I
think the automatic payments is a violation in itself.
Mr. Dodaro. Well, yes, we are going to make these decisions
as fast as possible. I fully intend to carry out our
responsibilities under the Impoundment Control Act
expeditiously and thoroughly.
Mr. Khanna. But how about by May 1?
Mr. Dodaro. I will check with my attorney, is what the
people always say, but I will check. I will let you know. Yes,
I am going to do it as quickly as we can, but we need to be
careful and thorough because the next step for us is to go to
court ourselves. I mean, under the Impoundment Control Act, if
we say there is an impoundment, the money is not released
within a certain period of time, we have to go to court.
Mr. Khanna. And are you prepared to do that?
Mr. Dodaro. Yes, yes, but I need to be prepared and be
careful, and because I want to go there, I want to win, all
right? So, we are going to do this as fast and as thoroughly as
we can. We have a good track record on this area, I have a good
group of attorneys, and we are going to do a thorough job.
Mr. Khanna. So, can the American people be assured that if
there are violations of the Impoundment Act in the automatic
pause or in the cuts, that you will make sure that you
prosecute that or take it to court and are confident that you
will prevail?
Mr. Dodaro. I can be confident that I will take it to its
full closure. I am not going to predict what the court is going
to say. I know better than that, but they have their own
independent decision-making. They are making some decisions
right now on these very topics, but I know and I am confident I
can give the American people assurance, we will carry out our
responsibilities.
Mr. Khanna. But to all the constituents who are saying we
are not doing enough, these things are getting paused, there
are cuts that are happening, you can assure them that you are
moving as expeditiously and taking this as seriously, that this
is your top priority in making sure that you are going to
uphold the Impoundment Act and take aggressive action if it is
violated.
Mr. Dodaro. Yes, absolutely, absolutely. I have been
talking about this as soon as things started to unfold. We sent
our letters over. This is very important. Now, there are a lot
of factors that go into making these decisions. One is how
specific Congress was in the appropriation law to begin with.
We need to take that into account. This year, we are in a
continuing resolution stage, so you do not have a lot of
specifics for this fiscal year, whether it is now year money or
not your money. There are some pauses for programmatic review.
So, there are a lot of details and a lot of legal
considerations to sort through, but this is a high priority for
us, and we are going to execute our responsibilities.
Mr. Khanna. I appreciate it.
Ms. Mace. All right. I will now recognize Mr. Biggs for 5
minutes.
Mr. Biggs. Thank you so much. It is good to see you again.
Welcome back. I have a question for you with regard to the
Impoundment Act. Let us say Congress appropriates $1, but the
Administration finds a way to do the same task that that dollar
is supposed to go for, for 75 cents. You do not think that they
are violating the Impoundment Act if they do not spend $1, the
full dollar, do you?
Mr. Dodaro. Well, that is a hypothetical question. I would
like to see the Federal Government spend $1 on something. I do
not think that that is going to happen, but the theory behind
your question is, did they spend everything that Congress
intended them to spend, and if they do not, that there is
nothing wrong with that. The Impoundment Act provides a remedy
for the President to submit a rescission proposal to the
Congress, and the Congress has 45 days to approve it. If they
do not, then they agree----
Mr. Biggs. Right, but the process can be cumbersome is the
point, then there needs to be the efficiency by doing the
Rescission Act. I do not take all the time for that.
Mr. Dodaro. Yes, but there is a process, yes.
Mr. Biggs. So, in your written testimony and in your
report, you say that the areas on the High Risk List include
programs that represented about 80 percent of the total
governmentwide reported improper payment estimate for Fiscal
Year 2023. Agencies in the Department of Treasury are taking
some steps to address this issue. Much more needs to be done to
control billions of dollars in overpayments and prevent fraud.
For example, CMS should improve the timeliness of audits to
identify and recover improper payments. You also make clear
that while congressional action may be necessary to eliminate
issues and that interagency coordination is needed, no progress
has been made on improving Medicaid program integrity since it
was added in 2023.
In 2023, GAO designated the unemployment insurance system
as high-risk because ``unemployment insurance is administrative
and program integrity challenges pose significant risk to
service delivery and expose the system to significant financial
losses.'' Similarly, GAO has ``designated Medicare as a high-
risk program due to its size, complexity, effect on the Federal
budget, and susceptibility to improper payments.'' Further, the
significant amount of Medicaid improper payments is a principal
reason that GAO included Medicaid program integrity on its 2023
High Risk List as well. In Fiscal Year 2023, the estimated
amount of improper payments for Medicaid reached approximately
$50.3 billion. Where is all that money going?
Mr. Dodaro. Well, it is going to the wrong places. It is
not quite clear. The estimates here are made based upon
sampling procedures, so it is not an enumeration of all the
payments. It is just for those that are in the sample that
where they make the payment, they try to recover the money. For
other things, it is just an estimate of statistically----
Mr. Biggs. Yes. So, you are basing it on statistical
inflation, right?
Mr. Dodaro. Right.
Mr. Biggs. So, it is impossible for you to tell how much of
that is due to fraud?
Mr. Dodaro. That is correct, although we have made
recommendations. We did a fraud estimate.
Mr. Biggs. And what is your fraud estimate?
Mr. Dodaro. Our fraud estimate from 2018 to 2022, that 5-
year period, we estimated annual losses to fraud to be between
$233 billion and $521 billion. So, that period covered both
before the pandemic and during the pandemic, which had, in my
view, epic fraud during the pandemic.
Mr. Biggs. Right. Right. Federal Medicaid spending was over
$575 billion in Fiscal Year 2023 and is expected to increase
over the next decade. What is needed to better manage the
program?
Mr. Dodaro. You said Medicaid or Medicare? I am sorry.
Mr. Biggs. Medicaid.
Mr. Dodaro. Medicaid.
Mr. Biggs. Yes.
Mr. Dodaro. No. 1 is you need to have better control over
managed care portion of Medicaid. The estimates on improper
payments for Medicaid only, really, are based upon the fee-for-
service portion, which is less than half of the payments now,
and we have encouraged much more aggressive fashion in looking
at the managed care portion. They have increased the number of
audits. They are starting to find more problems, so that is No.
1.
Mr. Biggs. OK. So, I got to move on----
Mr. Dodaro. All right.
Mr. Biggs [continuing]. Because there is just too much
here----
Mr. Dodaro. OK.
Mr. Biggs [continuing]. Because you also noted that DoD has
major problems as well. And so, I have introduced, once again,
the Audit the Pentagon Act, which aims to increase transparency
and accountability in the defense budget and imposing financial
consequences, because have they ever had a clean bill of health
on an audit?
Mr. Dodaro. Not for the overall Department. There are some
components, and I am very pleased, the last 2 years, the Marine
Corps has got an unmodified clean opinion. The other services,
not so much yet. Now, I noted that Secretary Hegseth has made
this a priority. I am going to be communicating with him,
meeting with him, to say, if you want to do this, here are the
things that need to be done in order to achieve an unmodified
opinion for the whole Department.
Mr. Biggs. And I am sorry that we are out of time because I
would like to hear all your Medicaid remedies as well as your
DoD remedies, but I have to yield back. Thank you.
Ms. Mace. I will now recognize Ms. Stansbury for 5 minutes.
Ms. Stansbury. Thank you, Madam Chair. Mr. Dodaro, thank
you so much for being here today, and also congratulations on
your soon-to-be retirement. Thank you for your service to our
country.
I want to just take a couple of minutes to talk about what
this hearing actually is, which is to talk about the High Risk
List. I am a former OMB'er, and we use GAO's reports at OMB to
actually implement change across the Federal Government. And
so, I am very acquainted with all the work of your staff. Thank
you for everything that you do.
So, I want to just clarify for folks who are watching at
home, the Government Accountability Office is a nonpartisan
government Agency. It is part of Congress. It is part of the
legislative branch. And your job is to audit, evaluate,
investigate, and to provide recommendations as a congressional
watchdog, both to Congress and to the executive branch,
correct?
Mr. Dodaro. That is correct.
Ms. Stansbury. And what you do every year as part of your
work is produce this High Risk List. And this year, the one you
are presenting to us today includes 38 areas that you have
identified that, as you just said in your testimony, would save
money, help ensure the health and safety of the American
public, and help to build trust in our Federal agencies. And I
want to briefly talk about some of the things that appear on
this list.
In fact, as you mentioned in your testimony, the first
thing on here is the improvement of delivery of Federal
disaster assistance. That is FEMA. Second is improvements in
surface transportation. We have got HHS and Public Health
Services, Department of the Bureau of Prison improvements.
There is a bunch of DoD recommendations here about improving
contracting and business practices, improving Small Business
Administration, resolving Federal housing finance issues
through HUD, EPA issues around environmental liability. There
is National Nuclear Security on here; enforcing tax laws,
including the IRS; improving certain FDA and DOI programs;
improving VA service; CMS programs; and also the regulation of
the financial regulatory system. And all of these things really
are about the transformation of how the Federal Government
provides services. And I heard you just say to Mr. Lynch as
well as to Mr. Khanna, that with respect to some of the
specific programs that were asked about, that the just
indiscriminate elimination of funding and staffing for these
programs would not only fail to actually resolve the issues
that you guys have identified, but potentially make them worse.
Is that correct?
Mr. Dodaro. That is a possibility.
Ms. Stansbury. Yes. So, obviously, there has been a lot of
conversation today in this Committee about the actions that are
being taken pursuant to DOGE by Elon Musk and these
indiscriminate funding freezes that are happening, the
dismantling of these programs, the hacking of Federal data, and
the mass firings, and we know that there is more that are
planned for this week. But unfortunately, we do not exactly
know what Elon Musk has actually been up to because he wo not
come to this Committee, and, in fact, our Republican colleagues
have shielded him from having to appear. But he did appear over
the weekend at CPAC at their political action event that was
held here in the Washington area.
[Poster.]
Ms. Stansbury. And here he is. He was wielding a chainsaw
with the Argentinian leader. And I will just say, as somebody
who grew up working construction, I know what two dudes who do
not know what to do with the chainsaw look like. But it is also
obvious that these guys actually do not also know how to manage
a Federal Government and how to address high-risk areas where
we actually do need to address issues of waste, fraud, and
abuse. And in fact, because I worked at OMB, I know that not
only are they not addressing these issues, they are looting the
Federal Government and breaking the law daily. And this
recklessness has really severe consequences, as was just
outlined by some of the other commentary already, but I want to
know some of the human impacts.
In my district--I was just home this weekend--we heard from
tribal college teachers who were fired, VA employees who are
not able to help support the veterans that they work with, a
colleague of mine who was told this week that his PTSD
counseling would be canceled. Tribal justice programs that pay
for cops had their funding frozen. I mean, the reality is, is
that this guy right here, who is an unelected billionaire, is
literally looting the Federal Government right now, and he has
no idea what he is doing. He is not even addressing the
fundamental problems that have been identified by our
nonpartisan watchdog. So, I want to be clear also that the
Republicans, as of today, just we took a break right before
this Committee went and voted on a rule to advance a tax
package that would make these cuts permanent to pay for a
permanent tax break for billionaires. So, what these guys are
up to is not about government efficiency. It is about looting
the American people in the Treasury to pay for billionaire tax
cuts. With that, I yield back.
Ms. Mace. OK. I will now recognize Mr. Cloud for 5 minutes.
Mr. Cloud. Thank you, Chairwoman, and thank you,
Commissioner, for being here. Our country, of course, is $36
trillion in debt. The American people, if we were to ask them,
and we have in the previous election, if we are to ask them if
we thought the Federal Government was working for them, they
would say, no, it seems like we are working for the Federal
Government. Yet, we continue to hear over and over from the
left that people who are coming in and doing things differently
do not know how to run the government. And the argument seems
to be like, well, we need people who know how to do what we
have been doing, even though it has continually led to failure.
Now I have, since being a new Member here, have appreciated
you coming before this Committee because for the last several
years, I felt like you were maybe the best good-faith effort in
helping us find waste, fraud, and abuse. The last several weeks
have been very interesting as new technology tools have been
brought to the table. And I find myself kind of like little
quagmire here in the sense, like, I have always thought it odd
that we begin counting waste, fraud, and abuse at a billion
dollars, even though it is the best good-faith effort we have
had. I have said a number of times, like, your report should
probably be our agenda as a committee or, certainly, somebody
should be doing it. In the last few weeks, so, we have seen a
handful of very young people with some very specific technical
skills come and seem to expose a lot that we have not been able
to see through the Government Accountability Office, so we have
a lot of new information at our disposal when it comes to the
very specific things that we are seeing.
I wanted to touch on the report because, while I do think
that you do good work, I was also concerned about some of the
things that I do see in the report and maybe some of the lenses
that things are being interpreted through. One, for example,
interest payments, and what we are paying on interest is not
even mentioned, and yet it is superseding our military
spending. One of the things you mentioned is strategic human
capital, and all the solutions to address it have to do with
basically more government, OK? We need more programs, and more
training, and more--and it continues to fall into this thing
that we see continually throughout the bureaucracy where the
answer to failed government is more government. And sometimes
that can be the case, but there is nothing addressing the fact
that it takes 2 years to fire a bad employee.
We could talk about the State Department recently, a lot to
come out about USAID and transgender operas overseas, and those
kind of things. I did not see, and again, it is 300 pages. I
might have missed it, but I did not see very much addressing
the State Department. And then there was a lot concerning
climate stuff, specifically when it came to connecting disaster
relief to climate activity, manmade carbon, carbon creation.
Connecting that to hurricanes is, at best, debatable science
right now, yet the report acts as if it is established, long-
held science and makes a number of recommendations for that. On
the other hand, it says that we need to look at oil and gas
revenues, and you actually mentioned it earlier that maybe we
need more. But we are talking about $15 billion there and
maybe, what, maybe there is 10 percent we are not getting. So,
we are talking $1 billion to $5 billion, but yet on the EV
mandates, we lost $7.5 billion dollars. That is not addressed
in the report as well. So, I have some concerns about whether--
we talk about it being nonpartisan. I think that is your best
intention, but at the same time, with a multi-thousand people
on staff, I have some concerns about the true nonpartisan
nature of the report.
I do want to give you some time to address something
because a lot has come up about Medicaid recently. There is a
lot of fearmongering, chicken little stories, the sky is
falling if we do or touch anything in Medicaid. Meanwhile, we
know that if we are going to correct course on the fiscal
course of our Nation, we have to address the mandatory side of
things. But you give a number of things touching Medicaid that
we can do, that do not actually address the people that
Medicaid was affected for. In other words, we are not taking
disabled people off Medicaid, where children, their needs are
still being met. Could you talk about some of those ways that
we can find savings for the American people do apply there?
Mr. Dodaro. Yes, before I get to Medicaid, though, let me
just touch on some of the things you talk about. First, on an
interest on the debt, I issued a special report on the fiscal
health of the Federal Government, basically saying it is on an
unsustainable long-term fiscal path. I specifically call out
the increase in interest on the debt, call for a plan to put
the Federal Government on a more sustainable fiscal path, point
out the main cost drivers, which are healthcare, demographics,
and growth in interest on the debt.
Mr. Cloud. Thank you.
Mr. Dodaro. And I have also made recommendations for about
a decade to try to change the approach to setting the debt
ceiling, which does nothing to control the debt.
On the issue on staffing, we are not saying you need more
government. We are saying Congress and the Administration said
this is what we want to do, and what we are saying is, OK, you
do not have the people in order to accomplish what Congress has
set in statute and the Administration's priorities are. So, we
are not determining the size and scope of government. That is
up to the elected officials. We are saying, however you define
it, it is not being implemented properly. Last on the climate
issue----
Mr. Cloud. On that point, with the change of policy that we
are seeing from the Trump Administration, could we expect this
report to deal with climate issues differently and oil and gas
issues differently?
Mr. Dodaro. Well, yes, and the climate issue, I want to be
clear on that. Our only focus on the climate issue is not on
what is causing it, what has changed. It is on the fiscal
exposure to the Federal Government, and that is the Federal
Government as an insurer. Our Flood Insurance Program is not
actuarially sound. The Flood Insurance Program owes $22.5
billion to the Treasury after the Congress has already forgiven
$17 billion. The Defense Department has been under instructions
from the Congress to look at its impact on its installations
domestically and internationally. The agriculture crop
insurance has more than doubled over a period of time.
Wildfires have expanded, and the Federal Government is fiscally
exposed.
So, all we are saying is, as the fiscal guardians of the
Federal Government, it is costing a lot more money, and it
would be better to focus on resilience and to try to build
things in up front. We are not commenting on the science of it
or whatever on that area. Let me ask my colleague to talk about
Medicaid because we have a lot of good suggestions.
Ms. Farb. I will try to be quick. So, we have over 65
recommendations, but there are three key ones that kind of get
at program integrity in the Medicaid program, to your point,
Congressman. So, looking at the budget neutrality of Medicaid
demonstrations and making sure that CMS is really clear about
what that means. When states experiment, we want to make sure
that we are not spending more than we otherwise would have.
Looking at the data behind some of the non-Federal share of
payments in Medicaid. So, understanding state-directed payments
to manage care plans and understanding sort of provider taxes
and other things that states use to help finance their share.
And then leveraging the findings of work that they can be doing
with state auditors, we have made a lot of points about this.
Just using the trends in the findings that the state auditors
find through their audits to inform their own oversight of the
program, so all areas directed at program integrity activities.
Mr. Cloud. Thank you. Appreciate your work.
Chaiman Comer. [Presiding] The Chair recognizes--let me,
for a second time--then go to Mr. Garcia--and we can follow up
with that.
Mr. Dodaro. Yes. I was just going to say, I will submit the
fiscal health report for the record for the Committee.
Chairman Comer. OK. Thank you. The Chair recognizes Mr.
Garcia.
Mr. Garcia. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I do
want to appreciate the work of the GAO. I think there is an
incredible work that happens there, and, of course, a lot of
uncovering of waste, fraud, and abuse happens. Mr. Dodaro, I
want to thank you for your important testimony. I agree there
is absolutely a responsibility for us to look at ways of
reducing the deficit, to actually make government more
efficient. And I think that, while I served as Mayor before
coming to this Committee, we worked really hard with our
auditor, with our state auditor, to do just that, and so thank
you for being here.
So, Mr. Dodaro, I do have some simple yes or no questions
for you, which I think are important. Mr. Dodaro, do you
believe that the recently firing of promoted Federal workers
who are, therefore, on probationary status does anything to
solve the important problems that you have raised today? Yes or
no.
Mr. Dodaro. Well, I agreed to, well, sworn to tell the
whole truth, nothing but the truth, and the whole truth
sometimes does not get reduced to a yes or no answer. And so,
in that case, I think it is important to look at what functions
were being provided and what was done in those cases, but it is
important that the rules be followed, that there are certain
personnel requirements and rules----
Mr. Garcia. Would you say yes or no?
Mr. Dodaro. The question was whether it would solve any of
the problems that we identified on the High Risk List, and the
answer to that question would be, it is doubtful.
Mr. Garcia. Exactly, and I agree with you. I agree it would
be a ``no.'' Now, what about has the GAO recommendation ever
included firing FAA aircraft safety inspectors who repair air
traffic control facilities?
Mr. Dodaro. No.
Mr. Garcia. No. I agree. Has the GAO ever made any
recommendation on firing USDA Animal and Plant Health
Inspection Service workers who are tracking the bird flu
outbreak or other outbreaks in poultry or cattle?
Mr. Dodaro. I do not believe so, no.
Mr. Garcia. Thank you. That is a ``no.'' Has the GAO
recommended firing National Nuclear Security Administration
workers who oversee our Nation's nuclear stockpile?
Mr. Dodaro. No.
Mr. Garcia. What about firing the only locksmith at
Yosemite National Park? Has the GAO ever recommended that?
Mr. Dodaro. I am not sure we have ever run into the
locksmith at the park.
Mr. Garcia. And the answer to that is you have not.
Mr. Dodaro. Right.
Mr. Garcia. And so, I thank you for that because, of
course, none of these have ever actually aligned with any of
the recommendations that have come out of your office, but yet,
they are clearly huge priorities for Elon Musk and his DOGE
team. It obviously is a crusade against the government, against
actually helping people across this country, and it is the
hypocrisy that we are seeing today, and there are committees
that I think is quite disturbing to House Democrats.
Now, Republican colleagues have spent a lot of time warning
about unsustainable deficits. We know that today there is a
huge vote, of course, we know, on a budget. Their budget
version and bill has a $4.5 trillion tax cut giveaway,
essentially, when we should be asking the super-rich to
actually pay more, and at the center of this we know is a huge
cut to Medicaid. They are targeting at least $880 billion,
maybe more, in Medicaid cuts. Now, in my district alone, we
have 300,000 people that are dependent on Medicaid,
approximately, which is a huge amount of the community and the
district. Now, nationally, 80 million people we know are on
Medicaid, but it actually impacts every single district across
the country, whether you are talking about Kentucky's 1st
District, where 26.5 percent of the population there, 155,000
people, are dependent on Medicaid; whether it is in Ohio's 4th
District, over 100,000 people depend on Medicaid, it is 15
percent of the population; whether it is in the Louisiana 3rd
District, 196,000, almost 200,000 people dependent on Medicaid;
or in in Georgia's 14th District, where 109,000 people, or 16
percent of the population, are dependent on Medicaid.
We know that Medicaid saves lives. These are huge numbers
of people. These are folks that are colleagues of ours and the
other side of the aisle, that are Members also of this
Committee, and that oftentimes are here at this Committee. So,
this actually has an impact to our constituents. It means
elderly and disabled people will not get their healthcare,
their long-term care. It actually impacts people that have real
substance abuse issues.
And one other thing that people do not realize about
Medicaid, there is a lot of conversation in this country about
births and encouraging people to have more children. Medicaid
covers 41 percent of all births in our country. Forty-one
percent of U.S. births were paid for by Medicaid. And so, if
this is really about supporting families and about expanding
families, we should also be talking about supporting and
expanding Medicaid coverage for Americans. We should be
providing more coverage, not less.
And so, with that, I want to thank you again for your work,
and I am hopeful that enough Republicans in today's vote will
do the right thing and avoid these Medicaid cuts. With that I
yield back.
Chaiman Comer. The gentleman yields back. The Chair
recognizes Ms. Greene.
Ms. Greene. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for being
here today, Mr. Dodaro, and congratulations on your upcoming
retirement.
For the past 4 years, Democrats have been in control of
basically all government functions for the American people. We
are at $36 trillion in debt, and the lies are getting to be
outrageous. Just listen to one of my colleagues talk about
Medicaid. The truth is for people watching at home, your
Medicaid benefits cannot get cut unless the Governor of your
state and the state cuts your benefits. That is the real truth.
Republicans here in Washington, here in Congress, we are not
taking away anyone's Medicaid benefits. As a matter of fact, we
are trying to cut out improper payments. We are trying to cut
out fraud.
At my DOGE Subcommittee, I had a hearing just 2 weeks ago
where we talked about improper payments. It is unbelievable,
and I am sure you would agree, Mr. Dodaro, that the amount of
money that is being paid to dead people, to foreigners, to
criminals, to terrorists, is amounting in the billions and
billions of dollars every single year. That is what Democrats
and Republicans should be agreeing on. We should be able to
come together and say let us stop this immediately.
Another thing that I find outrageous is that Democrats
under the Biden Administration passed $7.5 billion in spending
to build 500,000 electric vehicle charging stations all over
the country, whether Americans wanted them or not, but only 8
of these electric vehicle charging stations even got built. I
think that should have been in your top 25 list because where
is that money? Honestly, where is that money? That is a great
question.
Some other things that I would like to bring up to you here
is, GAO estimates that total fraud in these programs for
unemployment insurance, and you were just talking about it,
during the pandemic is at least $60 billion. Americans all over
the country will never forget that Democrats shut our country
down, shut our businesses down, people got fired, their
churches was closed, all their rights were taken away. And $60
billion from the Department of Labor, the Department of Labor
has still not developed an anti-fraud strategy, even though $60
billion is missing.
Also, the Medicare Program and scale of Medicare spending
is innately high risk, with the program spending an estimated
$1 trillion in 2024. Of that, in Fiscal Year 2024, we saw
roughly, I will go back to improper payments again, $54.3
billion in improper payments, and we have Democrats crying over
Elon Musk. Are you kidding me? The American people, the polling
is out, 72 percent, Democrats and Republicans, support DOGE.
Support it, 72 percent. They are not upset about anything that
Elon Musk is doing. As a matter of fact, they are happy. They
want all of these improper payments, all of this waste, they
want it back.
Now, here is what is really interesting to me. Despite this
significant progress made since GAO's 2023 high risk update--
thank you for that--USPS remains unable to fund its services
and employee obligations. That is outrageous. Private companies
have to be able to fund everything they do, but the United
States Postal Service still cannot do it. Now, the big one--the
big one--the Department of Defense, financial management, first
appeared on the High Risk List in 1995. Hey, I graduated from
high school in 1992. That is a long time ago now, and it
remains on this list, 28 years later. Twenty-eight years later,
Congress has not fixed this. The Department of Defense has not
fixed this. And last year, the Pentagon, with a budget of
around $850 billion, failed its seventh straight audit. What
are we doing? What are we doing? We should be at the most
bipartisan time in history where Republicans and Democrats can
come together and say the American people's money is being
stolen. It is being lost. It is outright treason to treat the
American people this way.
Mr. Dodaro, let me ask you this question. I cannot imagine
all the things you all have seen in your work. Do you disagree
with the effort of DOGE?
Mr. Dodaro. There is probably nobody in the government that
wants the government to be more efficient and effective than we
do at the GAO, and I do, personally. That is our job to help do
that, and we have worked many, many years in order to bring
about those changes, so, yes. Now, there are couple of
bipartisan things that you touched on that I think you and this
Committee could do. One is we have recommended that they make,
in order to stop paying dead people, the Social Security master
death file is given to Treasury, but only for a 3-year period.
They have already saved millions of dollars. Congress needs to
make it permanent. You could save hundreds of billions, of
millions, of dollars if that is done.
Ms. Greene. Can I get information from your team afterward?
Mr. Dodaro. Absolutely.
Ms. Greene. OK. That would be great. What about identity
verification?
Mr. Dodaro. Identity verification needs to be more
automated, and we have recommendations for that to occur in the
unemployment insurance area. Actually, the unemployment
insurance estimate on fraud we made was $100 billion to $135
billion.
Ms. Greene. Wow.
Mr. Dodaro. The other thing that could be done on a
bipartisan basis is that the statute of limitations to go after
the fraudsters needs to be extended from 5 to 10 years.
Congress did it for the Paycheck Protection Program, but not
for unemployment insurance. It is almost due to expire. So, if
Congress does not act soon, some of the fraudsters are likely
to get away because they will be outside the statute of
limitation. So, those things are really important and I think
should be bipartisan.
Ms. Greene. I agree. I think my time is up. Thank you, Mr.
Dodaro.
Chairman Comer. Thank you. And Ranking Member pointed out,
we have gone over a little bit on the last two on our side. If
someone feels the need to go over, I am keeping up with the
time. So, we will make it all work out. The Chair recognizes
Ms. Brown.
Ms. Brown. Thank you. Thank you, Chairman Comer, and thank
you to Mr. Dodaro for joining us today. This Administration
claims to care about rooting out waste, fraud, and abuse, but
the facts tell a very different story, so I just want to set
the record straight. On week one, President Trump fired 17
Inspectors General. These are the folks who work on behalf of
the people, Republicans and Democrats, regardless of party
affiliation or who is in the White House. They are the
watchdogs who root out government waste, fraud, and abuse, day
in and day out. Last year they identified nearly $100 billion
in potential savings. If Donald Trump and Elon Musk cared about
cracking down on waste, they would be talking to these
auditors, not firing them right out of the gate.
Meanwhile, the Government Accountability Office provides
cost-cutting recommendations that save taxpayers $40 billion
each year. So, if Trump was serious about efficiency, it would
focus on implementing the thousands of outstanding GAO
recommendations, including the 38 areas on the High Risk List,
but that is not what is happening. Instead, Trump created the
redundant Department of Government Efficiency, putting his
billionaire campaign donor, Elon Musk, who just so happens to
be a government contractor, in charge. That is not efficiency.
That is corruption dressed up as reform.
DOGE's records so far? Overstated claims, receipts that do
not add up, lies about condoms in Gaza, lies about 130-year-
olds on Social Security, an $8 billion contract that was really
$8 million. Can somebody say ``oops?'' DOGE claims to have
saved $55 billion. Well, Rupert Murdoch's, Wall Street Journal
crunched the numbers this weekend and found just $2.6 billion
in savings, mostly from canceled contracts and cuts in research
funding for things like Alzheimer's and chronic lung disease,
which brings me to my questions. Mr. Dodaro, how does the GAO
define ``government waste?''
Mr. Dodaro. Waste is defined as extravagant spending or
something that does not really add any value in terms of the
government's overall accomplishment of goals.
Ms. Brown. Thank you, and based on that definition, would
eliminating the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau qualify as
cutting waste or making a policy choice?
Mr. Dodaro. That is basically a value judgment and a policy
choice in order to do that.
Ms. Brown. Thank you. In my district, a Federal grant to
train teachers in underserved urban schools was terminated
solely because it was labeled as a DEI initiative. Is this
cutting waste or making a policy choice?
Mr. Dodaro. Waste to one person is not waste to another
person, but these are basically value judgments that are made
and based on policy preferences.
Ms. Brown. In your testimony, you mentioned that 20 of the
38 areas on the High Risk List in part are due to skills gaps
or inadequate number of staff. Would indiscriminately firing
probationary staff make it more or less likely that government
addresses waste, fraud, and abuse?
Mr. Dodaro. Yes, I answered this question earlier. I said
it was doubtful.
Ms. Brown. Doubtful. Thank you. In your testimony, it
highlights that the gross tax gap, which is the difference
between taxes owed and taxes paid on time. Can you remind us
what the tax gap was in 2022?
Mr. Dodaro. I would have to go back and take a look at what
it was in 2022, but it has been about the same as a percent of
the economy over time. Even though the numbers have grown as a
percent of GDP, it is about the same.
Ms. Brown. What would that percentage be?
Mr. Dodaro. I would have to----
Ms. Brown. All right. Let me just move on to my next
question.
Mr. Dodaro. Yes, I will provide that for the record. I have
it.
Ms. Brown. So, I am going to step out on a limb and say it
is about $700 billion a year that American taxpayers are being
robbed of, roughly, and that sure sounds like a lot of waste to
me. Now, would firing some 6,000 IRS workers lead to more or
less of that waste?
Mr. Dodaro. Yes, it depends on what their jobs are at the
IRS. Basically, they need more revenue agents, they need more
training, they need people for customer service. So, you would
have to look at what functions those people do and decide
whether or not they are important or not.
Ms. Brown. Well, thank you. I appreciate that. And let me
just clarify, high-income individuals are among the most
notorious tax cheats, and these are the same people Republicans
want to reward with a $4.5 trillion tax cut at the expense of
Medicaid, veterans benefits, and food assistance for children
and seniors, and that is what this is really all about. DOGE is
not about saving money, you all. It is about consolidating
power and ensuring that the rich get richer. So, from where I
sit, it looks like Trump and Elon Musk are not fighting waste.
They are just ensuring that the waste benefits the wealthy. And
with that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
Chairman Comer. The gentlelady yields back. The Chair
recognizes Mr. Perry from Pennsylvania.
Mr. Perry. Thanks, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Dodaro, thanks. Good
to see you again. You know a lot of things about a lot of
things, so, I am going to go somewhere where at least it has
been bipartisan. And I hope just by talking about it, that does
not destroy that, because we got a lot of work to do.
The Federal Government owns about a quarter a million
buildings and structures, about 2 billion square feet of office
space. A study by your Agency recently indicated 17 of the 24
agencies reviewed used 25 percent or less of their headquarters
office space. Even at their high mark, of 24 Federal agencies,
none of them use more than 49 percent. We got more than 11,000
acres of old unused buildings, and the American taxpayer, they
are forced to pay $2 billion a year for office space that sits
empty. Eighty percent of leases are going to expire in the next
5 years. I do not know if you are looking to take a contractor
job after you leave this rat race, but maybe that is something
you are interested in.
GAO reported just this year that real property management
was downgraded from ``met'' to ``partially met.'' Now, I think
you are familiar with the thing called the USE IT Act, which we
passed out of that committee. Bipartisan, not easy, but
bipartisan, and alongside OMB's benchmark, we would like to
remedy the situation of $2 billion a year for more than 11,000
acres of old, unused office space. I mean, that is more than
half the size of Disney World, just like sitting there empty,
but we are paying for it. You know a lot of things. What would
be your recommendation to Congress and to OPM to speed up the
implementation process? As you know, most of these agencies do
not want to give any of it up, even though they are not using
it, right, but they do not want to give any of it up. So, what
do we do, each one, Congress and OMB?
Mr. Dodaro. Yes, Dave Marroni is here. He did the study
that you referenced. I will let him----
Mr. Perry. All right.
Mr. Dodaro [continuing]. Explain in a minute, but the one
thing I would say that Congress needs to do is to make sure
that there are lessons learned. Congress tried to expedite this
by creating a board, and the board was to identify properties
for sale. They had three rounds. It barely made a dent in
anything. They were not in sync with OMB. There are no lessons
learned. That is why we downgraded them. There is still not a
process to dispose of Federal Real Property quickly and
expeditiously. And Congress can create that and set milestones.
I think it is very good that you set benchmarks for utilization
of the buildings that we keep, but we got to get rid of a lot
of buildings.
Mr. Perry. We have set the benchmarks, right?
Mr. Dodaro. Yes.
Mr. Perry. But we have agencies that cannot meet them or
will not meet them or do not meet them, but they still want to
hang on to them.
Mr. Dodaro. Yes, but you got to get rid of some of the
properties, and they could not enumerate.
Mr. Marroni. Yes. Well, same benchmark is an important
point in the law you referenced. There is also, within a year,
the measurements requiring OMB and GSA to start notifying
agencies if they have extra space, but I think you can do it.
Once those measurements are in place, how many people are
coming in to these buildings on daily basis, use those
measurements to say, OK, we have extra space, and then the
agencies need to expeditiously move forward.
OMB has a role there to ensure that they are setting
appropriate timeframes for agencies to respond if they are not
doing it on their own. Congress has a role in your oversight of
the implementation of the USE IT Act. And as the Comptroller
General mentioned as well, taking a look at the disposal
process for once owned buildings are going into the pipeline to
be gotten rid of, looking at ways to shorten it, make it less
complicated. We have noted for years that it is a complex,
complicated process. It takes too long.
And the reform process, the FASTA process, was an attempt
to look at ways to do that. Your legislation has extended the
life of FASTA, so it is an opportunity, really, to take
lessons, not only on what properties can we dispose of, but how
can we do it more quickly because there is a lot of extra
space.
Mr. Perry. So, are you saying it requires more legislation
from us regarding the standards and the process? Is that what
it requires, or can this be done by the Agency like GSA? Can
they do this on their own? And even though we want them to
divest, sometimes they do not, and even when we give them a
timeline, the timelines keep slipping, so then what?
Mr. Marroni. So, I think having the data now, as you know
from that report for your subcommittee, prior to that, there
was not even data on utilization outside of headquarters
buildings, very limited to know, so it is hard to tell how much
space you need if you are not actually measuring it. That
legislation will now require the collection of that data for
both owned and leased space throughout the country. That is
what is really important, for the agencies to take a look at
that data, and OMB to be there to push, to say, OK, if you are
extra, if you have more than you need, start getting rid of it.
Mr. Perry. Would it be an impoundment if OMB just said,
look, you have extra, you are not utilizing, we are paying for
X and we are not paying for the rest, as a forcing function?
Mr. Dodaro. Yes. No, no. What I think needs to be done,
there is a Federal building fund. In order to dispose of some
of this property, you need to fix it up sometimes and make it
available for sale.
Mr. Perry. We did not get into the backlog of maintenance
cost and all of that.
Mr. Dodaro. Right, but in this case, though, Congress has
been using the Federal Building fund for other purposes, so, I
think we have to come to grips with, if you want to----
Mr. Perry. Unbelievable, right, that they would do that.
Mr. Dodaro. Nothing shocks me after being in this job for
so long, but, I mean, we have to get in sync. And the other
thing Congress ought to do is make sure that wherever the
extension of FASTA is, they work in concert with OMB and GSA.
Last time they were working in parallel. They were not working
together.
Mr. Perry. OK. I thank you, Chairman. I yield.
Chairman Comer. Thank you. The Chair recognizes Ms. Lee.
Ms. Lee. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Dodaro, thank you for
being here today and sharing with this Committee this year's
High Risk List. This, of course, is the list that the
Government Accountability Office puts out every year that lays
out the government programs most at risk for waste, fraud, and
abuse, and recommends ways to approve them. If that sounds
familiar, it is because that is what DOGE is pretending to do,
but the work that GAO does is not pretend, and they produce
benefits at an average of $40 billion each year. Mr. Dodaro,
your time at GAO goes back more than 50 years, as you told us.
So, it is fair to say that you have a lot of experience with
this list and the GAO's work, correct?
Mr. Dodaro. Yes.
Ms. Lee. Thank you. I have just a few yes or no questions.
Not that I do not value your judgments, yes or no questions
about some of the contents of the High Risk List. One of the
areas identified in this list is the need to provide veterans
with better and more timely healthcare. Does your report
recommend improving veteran healthcare by cutting more than one
thousand jobs?
Mr. Dodaro. By what?
Ms. Lee. By cutting more than one thousand jobs?
Mr. Dodaro. No, it does not.
Ms. Lee. Thank you. How about the USDA? Does your report
recommend firing the workers tackling the bird flu outbreak?
Mr. Dodaro. No.
Ms. Lee. Another major area your list identifies is IT and
cybersecurity improvement. Does your list recommend anywhere
that the Federal Government start bypassing security protocols
and installing outside and unvetted software?
Mr. Dodaro. No.
Ms. Lee. Is cutting diversity, equity, and inclusion
programs recommended anywhere in your report?
Mr. Dodaro. No, we do not discuss those issues.
Ms. Lee. So, no?
Mr. Dodaro. No, that is not a topic in the report.
Ms. Lee. So, it is not there?
Mr. Dodaro. Right.
Ms. Lee. Thank you. Those are all actions taken by Elon
Musk and DOGE wrecking crew, and it is not surprising that none
of it is actually doing anything to improve waste, fraud, and
abuse. It is also not surprising that none of Musk's billions
in government contracts have been cut, yet none of the actions
by Trump and Musk have helped the American people. Eggs are
still expensive, so expensive that Waffle House has added a
surcharge, and thousands of hardworking Federal workers across
the country have lost their jobs. Slashing all the funding for
programs and services now is only going to lead to more
inefficiencies and more costs later.
The GAO literally has a blueprint of what to do to save
billions. The High Risk List is reported out every year. We
have a hearing on it every year, yet Trump and Musk are
ignoring these reports. Instead, they are gutting our
government programs and services to root out waste and to fix
our $36 trillion debt crisis. In reality, Trump and Musk want
all of us to pay for a massive $4.5 trillion tax giveaway to
the mega rich. Make no mistake, $4.5 trillion tax giveaway is
government spending, and it will balloon the deficit. If
Republicans want to be serious about tackling our debt, they
should start there. Start by putting the American people ahead
of the pocketbooks of their billionaire elite friends.
Thank you again for your time, Mr. Dodaro. I yield back to
the Ranking Member.
Mr. Connolly. I thank my colleague, and I echo what she has
just said. Mr. Dodaro, the Inspectors General are an important
part of accountability, transparency, efficiency, and oversight
of the Federal Government in a broad scope. Does firing 17 of
those inspectors general help with government efficiency?
Mr. Dodaro. No. I think the firing was----
Mr. Connolly. Speak up, please. I cannot hear you.
Mr. Dodaro. I am sorry. I am sorry. No, I think it was very
unfortunate. I think we lost a lot of institutional knowledge
and expertise with those firings. There were some Inspector
Generals fired back in the first Trump Administration, and I
issued a report talking about the importance of independent
Inspectors General and recommended that the Congress add some
provisions, the 30-day notice period, because the Inspector
Generals also report to the Congress. They are very unique part
of our government system, even though they are in the executive
branch. I do not dispute the President's authority to fire
them, but there should be notice of 30 days given and specific
reasons for the firings, but I think it is important to have
independent IGs.
Mr. Connolly. It should be performance based, and there has
to be cause. Otherwise, we are jeopardizing the independence of
the Inspectors General. I thank my colleague for yielding.
Chairman Comer. The Chair now recognized the next Governor
of Florida for 5 minutes.
Mr. Donalds. I actually appreciate that, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you. Mr. Dodaro, it is good to see you again. Thanks for
being back. Since 2003, Federal agencies have reported about
$2.8 trillion in improper payments, including over the last 7
years consecutively, at a minimum, $150 billion in each one of
those years. The High Risk report mentions that the Department
of Agriculture, HHS, HUD, DHS, OPM, and SBA all failed to
report improper payment estimates in Fiscal Year 2023.
And to reiterate for the American people, we have seven
agencies of the Federal Government that have not reported on
their improper payments. And, if memory serves, the last report
GAO issued had improper payments north of $240 billion that was
reported. What are some of the real issues within the Federal
Government for the lack of ability for these agencies to report
on improper payments within their purview?
Mr. Dodaro. I think there needs to be more pressure put on
those agencies by the administrations that are in place, and I
have talked to the prior administrations about this, and
Congress needs to demand that the law be followed than they do
improper payment estimates. I mean, I think it is not good
management to not know how much you are paying that you should
not be paying. It is not good fiscal stewardship. So, I am very
disappointed they are not reporting, and I would encourage the
Congress and the Trump Administration to require the reporting
now.
Mr. Donalds. I would agree with you wholeheartedly. Let me
ask you the question, the agencies that did not report, some of
them vary in size. Obviously, Department of Homeland Security
is a major department of the Federal Government.
Mr. Dodaro. Right.
Mr. Donalds. Considering that, let us just say, for
estimates sake--I do not have the report in front of me--that
in Fiscal Year of 2023, improper payments were $250 billion. If
we had the estimates of those seven departments, what do you
think the actual outstanding was from 2023?
Mr. Dodaro. Yes, I really hesitate to guess. The one thing
Congress needs to do in this area, though, the Temporary
Assistance for Needy Families, HHS, they cannot make an
estimate unless Congress changes the law. So, they refuse to do
it, saying they do not have the legal authority to require the
states to give them the information they need in order make an
improper payment estimate. So, Congress needs to change the
statute there.
Mr. Donalds. OK.
Mr. Dodaro. And I think that is important.
Mr. Donalds. All right. Thank you. FEMA is currently
managing over 600 major disaster declarations, some of which
have occurred 20 years ago. One of the GAO recommendations in
this year's High Risk report is that FEMA should identify and
document lessons learned related to estimating obligations for
catastrophic disasters. Can you expand upon this?
Mr. Dodaro. Yes. I will ask, Mr. Currie is our expert.
Mr. Donalds. Sure. Mr. Currie? Thank you.
Mr. Currie. Sure. FEMA has always struggled with this
because they do not know how much they are going to need in a
particular year. And then when you have a catastrophic disaster
season like you had last year in your home state with Helene
and Milton, that throws everything off. But COVID really threw
this off because FEMA did not expect to spend what it spent on
COVID. At the end of this year, it is going to have spent well
north of $150 billion on COVID, and what that has done is sort
of thrown all the estimates off. It has gone up over time,
which affects their estimates moving forward, and they spent
way more than they thought they were going to have to spend on
that. And that is one of the reasons that the Disaster Relief
Fund is in this constant negative situation. Actually, it is
going to be $12 billion underwater already at the end of
September, even after the supplemental appropriation that you
all provided it late last year.
Mr. Donalds. Not to cut you off, but to go down this line
of that we are talking about, is FEMA still having to make
payments out associated with COVID-19?
Mr. Currie. Absolutely, they are still making payments.
Mr. Donalds. Do you have an estimate of how much FEMA is
still appropriating out because of COVID-19?
Mr. Currie. Last time I checked, which was at the end of
February, they were upwards of $130 billion they had paid out,
and they expect to spend over $150 billion in the fiscal year.
They also told us they expect the disaster to run through the
end of Fiscal Year 2026, next year, and spend almost $180
billion on that. So, they are still reimbursing state and local
governments for that.
Mr. Donalds. OK. So, they are expected to spend another
$180 billion reimbursing state and local governments for COVID-
19, and that is a stretch?
Mr. Currie. Sorry, another $50 billion.
Mr. Donalds. Another $50 billion to take it to $180
billion?
Mr. Currie. Yes, exactly.
Mr. Donalds. OK. All right. Thank you for that. I
appreciate that. I am out of my time. Thank you so much, Mr.
Chairman. Mr. Dodaro, thank you for your time and your service.
Chairman Comer. The Chair recognizes Mr. Subramanyam.
Mr. Subramanyam. Subramanyam. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Comer. Sorry.
Mr. Subramanyam. That is OK. So, before we go on to this,
someone had said earlier that we cannot cut Medicaid here in
Congress, and I just want to make sure everyone knows at home
that that is not true. In fact, my state, this Republican
budget, which it does, would cut Medicaid benefits even a
little bit. Everyone who benefited from Medicaid expansion in
Virginia would actually lose that benefit, and so it would hurt
us and many other states, millions of people across the
country.
But moving on, thank you, Mr. Dodaro, for coming.
Actually,saw in the news that DOGE had a savings dashboard
online. Have you seen the savings dashboard, this website,
DOGE.gov/savings.
Mr. Dodaro. I have not. No.
Mr. Subramanyam. OK. Well, I have it up here. It says,
``Let's balance the budget.'' DOGE's total estimated savings
are $65 billion, but I would like to enter into the record this
article, February 25, from the New York Times, ``DOGE Quietly
Deletes the Five Biggest Spending Cuts it Celebrated Last
Week.''
The subtitle is, ``The cuts highlighted on an earlier
version of the wall receipts contain mistakes that vastly
inflated the amount of money saved.'' How much money do you
think DOGE is actually saving? Do you have just an estimate?
Mr. Dodaro. I do not know.
Mr. Subramanyam. You do not really know. I do not know
either. In fact, a lot of us do not know. We really want to ask
them. It would be really nice if we could. Have you met with
anyone at DOGE or Elon Musk?
Mr. Dodaro. I have not. No.
Mr. Subramanyam. OK.
Mr. Dodaro. We have had a couple of our people meet with
some DOGE people at the Treasury Department to talk about our
audits of the General Fund at the Treasury. Since we audit the
Federal Government's financial statements, we also audit the
General Fund, which is all the cash payment systems over there.
They had some questions about our report. That is the extent of
it so far. We have a number of requests from Congress to begin
looking at their access to the systems, and we will begin that
work at a number of agencies across government.
Mr. Subramanyam. I have sent a lot of letters. Have they
responded to any of your requests so far?
Mr. Dodaro. We are just getting started.
Mr. Subramanyam. You are just getting? Have you sent any
actual requests to them?
Mr. Dodaro. We have asked for an entrance meeting at the
Treasury Department, and so we expect to----
Mr. Subramanyam. What did they say?
Mr. Dodaro. Well, we are in the process. As far as I know,
we are not having any progress.
Mr. Subramanyam. OK. I tried to get into the Treasury
Department. They would not let me in, so.
Mr. Dodaro. Yes, we are their auditors.
Mr. Subramanyam. I guess that makes sense, but I am a
Member of Congress, so that is why I was confused.
Mr. Dodaro. I expect and anticipate cooperation.
Mr. Subramanyam. Interesting. And so just going on, I have
heard a lot that this is about addressing the Federal debt. And
if you got rid of every single Federal civil servant, how much
of the Federal debt would that actually pay down in--what do
you think of percentage?
Mr. Dodaro. Yes. The total Federal payroll is less than 10
percent of the Federal Government's expenditures. The problem
with our debt is you could eliminate almost the entire
discretionary part of the budget and still not really make an
impact, long-term, on the deficit path that we are on right
now. I mean, you are $36 trillion in debt right now. The debt-
to-GDP ratio from debt held by the public as a percent of gross
domestic product this year will be 100 percent in our entire
history--in our entire history. It has been 106 percent during
World War II.
Mr. Subramanyam. Sure.
Mr. Dodaro. Absent any change in fiscal policy, by 2050, it
will be over 200 percent of debt-to-GDP ratio. The only way to
deal with this is to deal with the main driver, which is
healthcare costs. Now, you can make inroads in terms of----
Mr. Subramanyam. But I would conclude from that then that
this effort is not actually doing much, if anything, to reduce
the Federal deficit, to reduce our Federal debt. In fact, it is
a drop in the bucket, I would say. And now let us look at what
the Federal civil servants who are being fired en mass, being
targeted en mass, are actually doing. They are firing nuclear
safety experts, accidentally. They are trying to call them
back. They cannot even find some of their emails. They deleted
all their contact info. They fired the staff researching bird
flu, actually, which is very relevant today. They cut FDA, NIH,
and CDC staff. Some of the high-risk projects that you are
talking about, the staff that is integral to implementing a lot
of your recommendations were actually fired.
And then even the website I was just talking about, this
wall of receipts, they actually messed that up, too. They said
that they cut about $8 billion at ICE, but it was actually $8
million. And then that is setting aside the fact that they
gave, accidentally, perhaps, self-proclaimed racists, actually,
read and write access to the critical Treasury data that
includes almost every American's personal information. And so,
it does not seem like this is actually very good. If they are
trying to cut the deficit, if they are trying to get rid of
waste, fraud, and abuse, they are doing a really bad job, it
sounds like. Thank you. I yield my time.
Chairman Comer. The Chair recognizes Mr. Burlison from
Missouri.
Mr. Burlison. Thank you. Thank you so much. It is good to
see you again. I will be sad after you leave. You had mentioned
in the previous conversation the debt-to-GDP ratio at nearly
100 percent, but according to the debt clock, at $36 trillion,
with a GDP of $29.6 trillion, we are actually at 123 percent.
Mr. Dodaro. Well, if you count, I am counting just debt
held by the public. The $36 includes debt that we owe to
ourselves and intergovernmental transfers like back to Social
Security and Medicare trust funds. So, you are right if you use
gross debt. I am using just debt held by the public.
Mr. Burlison. And over the next 10 years, we are planning
to add another $20 trillion, on the current spend level,
correct?
Mr. Dodaro. Yes. Yes.
Mr. Burlison. So, at what point do we end up in a situation
where we cannot make the interest payments?
Mr. Dodaro. I think this is the big issue, and I have said
that we have tremendous interest rate exposure because we
borrow short-term, so we are always refinancing the debt that
we had before. We never paid down any of it.
Mr. Burlison. And rates are going up.
Mr. Dodaro. And rates are going up, and that is what has
happened. The interest on the debt in 2023 was $352 billion.
This year it will be a trillion. So, compound interest works
well when you are saving, but not when you are borrowing.
Mr. Burlison. Yes. And that is why, for me, the alarming
number was seeing that the growth in the interest payments from
last year to this year has been over $200 billion just in the
growth.
Mr. Dodaro. Right.
Mr. Burlison. So, when we are talking about a
reconciliation package, if you are just going to cover the
growth in the interest payments, you would need to find savings
of at least $2 trillion over the next 10 years, correct?
Mr. Dodaro. Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. This is a big
problem.
Mr. Burlison. It is a really big problem, and I would
really welcome if our Democratic colleagues would recognize,
this is not a Republican problem. It is not a Democrat problem.
This is a math problem. This is a serious thing that I think we
only have maybe a few years, a handful of years left to correct
this before we end up in a debt spiral.
Mr. Dodaro. Yes, absolutely, and you are also going to
confront the depletion of the Social Security Trust Fund and
the Medicare Part A Trust Fund----
Mr. Burlison. In approximately 8 years----
Mr. Dodaro. Yes, yes.
Mr. Burlison [continuing]. To 11 years?
Mr. Dodaro. Yes. The trustees' estimates will be out in
another couple of months, and I would not be surprised if those
dates are moved up a tad.
Mr. Burlison. So, if we are having a mandatory spending
conversation, and this is what my question to you is, and I
think that we universally, even though we are going to be
criticized as though we are trying to kick people off of
Medicaid, if the goal is not to kick anybody off of Medicaid
that needs it, what are the different solutions that are in our
toolbox where we could eliminate improper payments? I would
hope to think that Democrats are not opposed to eliminating
improper payments in Medicaid, right?
Mr. Dodaro. No.
Mr. Burlison. One would hope. One would hope that they
would not be opposed to finding fraudsters or people that are
not supposed to be receiving the benefits, one would hope that
you would want to find ways of getting the best bang for your
buck within the program, and that is what I want to kind of
drill down to. At the end of the day, this is the healthcare
industry and the costs of healthcare that the Federal
Government is having to deal with, Medicaid and Medicare, and
even the insurance on the lives of the Federal workforce,
correct?
Mr. Dodaro. Yes.
Mr. Burlison. So, what can we do? Have you guys seen
anything that can be done that would actually have an impact in
driving down healthcare costs?
Mr. Dodaro. Yes. This is a compound problem because you
have got healthcare costs going up faster than the economy. And
you have the demographics are working against us because there
are older people that are hitting the payroll. It is a
combination of both things.
Mr. Burlison. And then I wanted to, if you could answer
this before my time runs out.
Mr. Dodaro. Sure.
Mr. Burlison. Within your answer, I noticed there was a
study that was done in 2019. I am hoping that you have new
studies that indicated when you studied the impact that PBMs
had had and whether or not that the savings was actually coming
back to the Federal Government and if there is new data,
because at that time it was 96 percent, that was coming back in
savings, so?
Ms. Farb. On the PBM issue, I am going to have to get back
to you on how much. We are doing some current work in that area
in terms of what we drive down. So, the way you pay for
services, the responsibility of the patients for cost sharing,
those are the types of things where the government could take
some action. So, for example, we have had a longstanding
recommendation. You all have considered this in multiple
Congresses, of making sure that Medicare and other payers are
paying the same for services, whether they are delivered in the
physician office or in the hospital outpatient department
setting. The most recent CBO score of that, which they put
out----
Mr. Burlison. Site neutrality is what you are saying?
Ms. Farb. Yes, budget neutrality, I mean, site neutrality,
yes, so that the most recent score of that is $151 billion in
savings over 10 years, and that has impacts on the entire
healthcare system. So, it is not even just savings within
Medicare. It will have an impact on other programs as well as
the private sector healthcare system. So, there are lots of
examples like that of paying differently for services.
Mr. Burlison. Can you provide those examples to me?
Ms. Farb. Yes.
Mr. Dodaro. Yes, we will do that.
There is also the adjustments that are made every year
between fee-for-service and Medicare and Medicare Advantage.
And the legislative commission set up by the Congress, I
appoint the members to this MedPAC for Medicare, one for
Medicaid. In the MedPAC area, they estimate that there is
overpayments being made to the managed care portion of, like,
$40 billion. And so, we have recommendations to make that a
fair comparison, so we are not overpaying.
Mr. Burlison. Thank you. I yield back.
Chairman Comer. Thank you. The Chair recognizes Ms. Ansari
from Arizona.
Ms. Ansari. Thank you. I am sorry. I thought since
Representative Frost is back. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Dodaro, you said today that ``there is a need for
change, but how we do so matters.'' I could not agree with you
more. We absolutely need to ensure that our government and its
agencies and programs are running efficiently and free of waste
so that we can deliver for the American people. We need to make
sure seniors are getting their Social Security checks on time
so they can pay their rent and have food on the table. But
meanwhile, Elon Musk is spreading brazen lies that tens of
millions of dead Americans are receiving checks, and he is
going after our personal data. We need to make sure we are
getting correct tax returns so that Americans depend and can
respond in a timely manner, but President Trump just fired
6,700 IRS employees in the middle of tax season, as you know.
And we need to ensure that Americans on Medicare continue using
telehealth services, which is essential for rural communities
and seniors, but the President is shutting that service down as
well in April. They fired over a thousand VA employees that our
veterans depend on for essential healthcare services and their
hard-earned benefits. Not only that, but they enacted a hiring
freeze for this Agency that already has a shortage of doctors
and nurses, and I know you confirm this earlier today as well.
There has also been a lot of talk about polling from my
colleagues from the other side of the aisle, so I would also
like to cite recent polling on this issue. In two recent polls,
when respondents were asked whether they approved or
disapproved of the job that Elon Musk is doing within the
Federal Government, there was a 34 percent approval compared to
a 49 percent disapproval. That poll was carried between
February 13 and the 18. It also found that 52 percent of
Americans disapprove of Musk shutting down Federal programs
that he deems unnecessary. And in another poll, only 28 percent
believe that Musk's role in the government is a ``good thing.''
So, Americans are fed up with the corruption. They know that
none of what is happening is about addressing waste, fraud, and
abuse, the new buzz word. It is about saving a buck to hand off
to billionaires.
So, Mr. Dodaro, thank you again for being here. A few
questions for you. Do you believe that firing 6,700 IRS
employees reduces waste and makes tax filing more efficient?
Mr. Dodaro. No.
Ms. Ansari. Thank you. Does the High Risk List recommend
the dismantling of USAID, the Department of Education, or the
Consumer Financial Protection Bureau?
Mr. Dodaro. Do we recommend that? No, we have not
recommended that.
Ms. Ansari. And did Elon Musk or DOGE consult with you and
your team to decide who to fire and who gets to keep their
jobs?
Mr. Dodaro. No.
Ms. Ansari. So, the independent, nonpartisan office--your
office--dedicated to research how the Federal Government can
increase efficiency, and I have heard a lot of praise from both
sides, which is deserved, the GAO is not in any way, shape, or
form consulted by the Trump Administration or Elon Musk before
they made sweeping decisions to fire thousands of government
employees, dismantle Agencies, or overstep Congress to do so.
Mr. Dodaro. The point of clarification I would make is
since we are an independent, nonpartisan organization in a
legislative branch, it is really not our role to be consulted
on personnel decisions in the executive branch. We give advice
on what kind of functions, the operations of the government,
but we do not, you know, make recommendations about specific
individuals and personnel decisions. That is left to them, but
what we do look at is whether or not decisions like that were
made in accordance with law and merit principles. And there is
also the Merit Systems Protection Board, and the Office of
Special Counsel, and the Fair Labor Relations Board. So, there
are a number of entities within their independent agencies that
are supposed to focus on the personnel process, whether people
are treated fairly.
Ms. Ansari. Thank you. That clarification is helpful. It is
overall extremely alarming to me that you were not consulted in
such sweeping, rapid changes that have come about. Your
recommendations, as you said, many of them have been around for
years and still remain an issue that we very much should be
tackling. But the corruption of DOGE and Elon Musk, and to a
point that has already been said, you know, if they believe
what they are doing is correct and they are tackling these
issues for the American people, I welcome them to come here and
speak to us as well. So, thank you again so much.
Chairman Comer. The Chair now recognizes Mr. McGuire.
Mr. McGuire. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you, Mr.
Dodaro, for your service, and I wish you the best in
retirement.
You know our country is in big trouble, $36 trillion in
debt. We should be sounding the alarms all over the place, on
both sides of the aisle, if it was $1 trillion. If you spend
more money per day in your household than you make per day, you
would be out on the street. And if you were a business and you
spend more than you bring in per day, you would be out of
business. If the government was a business----
Chairman Comer. Please talk into the microphone there, so
that it could be recorded.
Mr. McGuire. If the government was a business, it would be
out of business. Again, I talk about $36 trillion as the
biggest national security issue in our country.
I heard folks on the other side of the aisle talk about
DEI. If you had a list of things you would do if you wanted to
destroy our country, you would have open borders, you would
have 103,000 people a year die from fentanyl overdose from this
Chinese chemical warfare fentanyl being produced in China and
coming across our border, you would have these foreign wars,
you would spend more money than you make, things that did not
happen during Trump's first Administration. I heard them talk
about DEI. You know what DEI stands for? Didn't Earn It. Plus,
it is illegal discrimination and it destroys efficiency. Equal
opportunity is OK, but equal outcome is Marxist. Instead of
focusing on waste, fraud, and abuse over the last 4 years, we
were focused on these divisive, woke ideologies.
When you are doing business with foreign countries, they
say, you know, when we work with America's competitors, they
say we want to build a bridge. They talk about building a
bridge. When America comes to their town, they want to talk
about these woke ideologies. It is ridiculous. And I heard it
said that Trump is not serious about being efficient. Well, we
talk about the fentanyl that is killing all these American
people dead--103,000 a year. Well, border crosses are now down
in just a short period of time, 95 percent from 2,000 border
crosses per day to about 200 border crossings today. I would
say that is pretty efficient.
His recruitment is up in the military, the highest it has
been in 11 years. I would say that is pretty efficient. I mean,
if we do not have the young men and women willing to step up
and volunteer and protect our Nation, we will not have a
Nation. He is also got his appointees through the Senate just
about faster than any President in history. I would say that is
pretty darn efficient.
And when you are $36 trillion in debt, it is getting worse.
I do not say we are at the cliff. We are over the cliff. And by
the grace of God, President Trump and Elon Musk and everybody
else wants to pull us back and save this country. I think every
major nation in history that went under was because of
bankruptcy. He got several hostages, American hostages,
returned in record time. So, I would say President Trump
definitely cares about efficiency. What shocks me is that the
left is outraged at Elon Musk and all these people that are
fighting so hard to discover waste, fraud, and abuse, and save
our country, but they are not outraged at the people that
committed the waste, fraud, and abuse, and that just shocks me.
I find it concerning that says 2,003 Federal agencies have
reported about $2.8 trillion in estimated improper payments.
The GAO issued a biennial report the start of each Congress to
identify which programs are vulnerable to fraud, waste, and
abuse, and mismanagement. So, Mr. Dodaro, are there any common
themes or problems that you have noticed across the high-risk
areas when compiling this list in recent years?
Mr. Dodaro. Yes, there are a number of areas we have been
adding to the list involve multiple agencies to have to work
together in order to address it, and one of them is on point to
your point about fentanyl. We added drug misuse as a high-risk
area because there needed to be a better national strategy that
pulled together Federal departments and agencies, but also work
at the state and local level, work with law enforcement, work
with treatment facilities and others. And so, that is an area
that that requires multiple AGs to work together, so that is
one of the patterns that we have seen, you know, over time.
Mr. McGuire. Well, I would say the American people, We the
People, are sick and tired of being ripped off, and in just 5
weeks, DOGE, Elon Musk and his genius team, and by the way, the
guy is the richest man in the world. He does not need our
money. And President Trump is the only President in recent
history I have ever heard of that left office with less money.
Every other President has left office with more money.
But we have got to make some good decisions. Our country is
in really big trouble. We talk about FEMA. Hurricane Helene
impacted my district as well, and I was just struck by how
farmers and volunteers all across our commonwealth and all
across our Nation jumped in to help people. What are some
things that we can do? Like, I have heard it proposed that some
of the FEMA duties can be returned to the Governors. What do
you think we can do to handle these natural disasters more
efficiently?
Mr. Dodaro. Yes. I think one thing would be to determine at
what level, the state and local levels. They are already the
first responders, and FEMA gives grants for them to be better
prepared. But we have always said, well, how prepared are they?
And they have never been able to tell us over time. I will let
Chris Currie----
Mr. McGuire. My last question, real quick.
Mr. Dodaro. All right.
Mr. McGuire. What is the definition of ``insanity?''
Mr. Dodaro. Well, the common definition is used is keep
repeating the same thing over and over again and expecting a
different result.
Mr. McGuire. Yes. So, we have to move quickly. I do not
know if you knew who Mr. Wonderful is? Kevin O'Leary, very
successful businessman. He is on CNN. He is saying that DOGE
should move faster than its moving. It should cut 20 percent
more and then you rebuild from there because we are in drastic
times. Desperate times require desperate measures. Thank you
very much. I yield back.
Mr. Dodaro. We will provide answers on FEMA for the record.
Chairman Comer. The Chair recognizes Mr. Frost.
Mr. Frost. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Dodaro, thank you so
much for being here today. The GAO, Government Accountability
Office, it is really thoughtful expert reports that help us
save billions of dollars every year, and I thank you for that
work and thank your staff for that work.
The GAO could not be more different than Trump and Elon
Musk's DOGE. Trump and Musk want to rip away the vital services
that millions of Americans depend on. He is doing it just to
find money to give tax cuts to the richest people in this
country and largest corporations in this country, many of whom
pay a less effective tax rate than a lot of the teachers in my
district. DOGE will save nothing for the American people, while
making everything worse for us, while trying to find room to
give tax cuts to the richest people in this country.
Shamefully, those cuts include cuts to our military
veterans, including the nearly 32,000 veterans that I proudly
represent, and I take this subject personally because I am the
son of a veteran. I come from an Air Force family. How my
family has been there for so long? They were in it when it was
the Army Air Corps, and, so, I take this very personally. Mr.
Dodaro, VA healthcare is on the GAO's High Risk List. How have
staffing challenges at the VA contributed to this?
Mr. Dodaro. And I will ask Ms. Farb to come up. But they
have contributed to it very significantly. Jess?
Ms. Farb. I would say, you know, we talked about this a
little bit earlier, in terms of scheduling appointments for
veterans, both in the VA facilities and in the community,
providing treatments that are needed and timely care, which VA
has had problems with in the past, as we all know. So, not
having the staff that they need to kind of continue on the path
to making sure that veterans get timely access to quality care.
Mr. Frost. So, that is capacity issue, not enough?
Mr. Dodaro. Yes. Well, not a right type. I mean, we----
Mr. Frost. Yes.
Mr. Dodaro. I am very concerned about the mental health
area, and they do not have enough behavioral mental health
people, particularly for rural veterans.
Mr. Frost. A hundred percent.
Mr. Dodaro. And the suicide prevention area is another
area. You know, last I checked, there were 17 veterans a day
die by suicide.
Mr. Frost. Yes.
Mr. Dodaro. It is a national disgrace, in my opinion, that
we are not better supporting these people, which is why I added
it to the High Risk List, and so they need doctors, nurses.
They need the proper care and also the proper handoff if they
go to the community care process as well. So, it is an issue
that we need to be very careful on how we handle and make sure
it is done properly.
Mr. Frost. I 100 percent agree with you. I was actually
about to ask you about the VA's need to hire more psychiatrists
and psychologists, and I appreciate you bringing that up.
Mr. Dodaro. Right.
Mr. Frost. You know, last week, I held a veterans town hall
in my district at my local VA. There were a few hundred people
that showed up. Folks came very confused, very angry and very
scared. They asked questions. I have some of them down. They
asked, will I lose my benefits? Who staffs DOGE? And what are
they doing with my personal medical information? Will budget
cuts mean that I will have longer wait times? Why is my
healthcare being sacrificed to politics? These are the
questions people asked me, my constituents, veterans, asked me.
Among the 18 Inspectors General that Donald Trump illegally
fired, which, by the way, Congress was supposed to be notified
before an IG is fired like that. Maybe about 2 hours ago,
Republicans in this Committee took a vote to silence me because
I said Donald Trump was engaging in grifting, but complete
crickets when he breaks the law and completely circumvents
Congress and does not tell us about the firing of 18 Inspectors
General. How will the firing of the Inspector General of the VA
make it harder to address the issues that my constituents, the
veterans in my district, raised?
Mr. Dodaro. I responded earlier that I thought it was
unfortunate those IGs were fired. I think we lost a lot of
institutional and expertise in that area. We have worked very
closely with Mike Missal over the years and the other IGs. Now,
they have a very talented group of people. They will soldier
on, and they will continue to do the job, but it was
unfortunate. And, you know, I had recommended to the Congress
to make the change to require a 30-day notice and to give for-
cause because the Inspector Generals do report to the Congress
as well as to the head of the agency. It is a very unique
responsibility and Congress should have the opportunity to
engage in a dialog on that. I do not dispute the President's
authority to fire them, but how it is done and follow the
proper procedures, I believe, is important.
Mr. Frost. Thank you. The Orlando VA healthcare system
already suffers from critical staffing shortages. I mean, the
people there, who a large percentage of them are veterans
themselves, are doing a great job. They are doing what they
need to do, but they do not have the staff capacity necessary
to be able to meet the demand, to be able to live up to our
promise to people who put their lives on the line for the
safety and security of this country, and that is something I
take very seriously. It is something that a lot of my
Republican colleagues used to take very seriously, but times
change. Thank you so much and I yield back.
Chairman Comer. The Chair recognizes Mr. Gill from Texas.
Mr. Gill. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you for
holding this hearing today. I would like to start by addressing
a few of the concerns that our colleagues have had on the other
side of the aisle about the DOGE movement and Elon Musk in
particular. And first, they are telling us that what DOGE and
Elon Musk are doing by firing Federal workers, many of whom are
not showing up to work to begin with, is somehow cruel. And I
would like to say that perhaps what is actually cruel is
bankrupting our country by funding a Federal workforce that is
not working. What is cruel is driving up inflation by spending
more money than our Federal Government has, harming working-
class families across the country. What is cruel is
consolidating power in an undemocratic administrative state
that does not answer to anybody, apparently, if they had their
way.
You know, no Federal worker has a right to work for the
U.S. Government, but our children do have a birthright to
inherit a country that is not bankrupt, and that is what House
Republicans, and President Trump, and Elon Musk are trying to
do by cutting out waste, fraud, and abuse from the Federal
Government. What Elon Musk is doing is not cruelty. It is
altruism, and it is the first time anybody has been able to
actually rightsize our Federal budget, and we should be
applauding him, regardless of which side of the aisle we sit
on.
I would also like to address the idea that Elon Musk and
President Trump are somehow corrupt in rightsizing the Federal
Government. If you want to know where the real corruption is,
let us look at which side of the aisle has been benefiting from
this slush fund that we have been giving out with very little
accountability. It tends to be left-wing pet projects, left-
wing media, like NPR and PBS, who always routinely run cover
for Democrats while attacking Republicans. It is left-wing
advocacy groups and NGOs that are taking our tax dollars and
promoting DEI programs, and transgender gender surgeries, and
girl-powered climate action, whatever that means. These are all
left-wing movements that are being funded by our tax dollars.
And it raises the question of how successful would the leftist
political movement be in America if it were not for the fact
that their whole movement is subsidized by taxpayers? That is
what corruption is. And we are finding out now recently that
Stacey Abrams is part of part of the grift as well.
Apparently, the EPA gave $2 billion to a group called Power
Forward Communities that was funded in late 2023 and had only
reported $100 in total revenue. Power Forward Communities had
no business managing a grant that large, of course, but they
were appealing for Democrats. The co-chair of Power Forward
Communities is Shaun Donovan, who previously served as Barack
Obama's Director of HUD and OMB. And we also know that Stacey
Abrams is Senior Counsel for one of the coalition groups called
Renewing America, affiliated with this. That is corruption, and
that is the waste that we are trying to root out here.
They talk a lot about Elon Musk and DOGE and having access
to American data. Remember, Biden let 53 unpaid researchers and
students have full access to the American people's data at the
IRS, and there was no outrage then. We are learning now that
the Biden IRS leaked taxpayer information. We were told last
year that it was only for, I say only, for 70,000 Americans. We
are finding out today it was actually 405,000 Americans. That
is the kind of access to data that I am concerned about, and it
is being leaked to a left-wing news outlet that is partially
funded by George Soros. These are the questions we should be
asking and we should be raising.
They like to talk, I think disingenuously and very
hyperbolically, about President Trump being a dictator. As they
know, Article II of the Constitution says that the executive
power shall be vested in a President of the United States of
America, not in a technocratic, undemocratic, unelected,
administrative state that they have been propping up for so
long. We are a republic, not a European style technocracy, and
that is why our country is the global leader and Europe is not,
but for decades, we have watched as this administrative state
has metastasized and acts with incredible leftist fervor and
has no accountability. What President Trump and Elon Musk are
doing is returning our country back to its democratic roots,
restoring constitutional order in this country, and that is why
we should be supporting them. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Comer. The gentleman yields. The Chair now
recognizes Mr. Min. Oh, OK, am I out of order? Who do I?
Mr. Min. Oh, no, that is fine. Mr. Dodaro, thank you for
joining us. Thank you for your decade----
Chairman Comer. Hold on, Mr. Min. I am sorry. Mr. Connolly,
who is next?
Mr. Connolly. I think Ms. Simon is next.
Chairman Comer. OK. Sorry about that.
Mr. Min. OK.
Ms. Simon. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you, Ranking
Member. I appreciate your testimony today, sir. And thank you,
as an M.P.A. master student a few years ago, I spent an awful
lot of time reading your reports and I really, really
appreciate the level of professionalism that you have led, and
thank you for your service.
You know, my colleague, Mr. Frost, and you talked a bit
about veterans, sir, and I appreciate that. My mother served
the Veteran Administration for over 35 years. You know, if you
call (415) 221-4810 or in Phoenix to (602) 277-5511, or in
Texas (713) 791-1441, we know now when veterans, mothers of
veterans, partners of veterans, when they are calling--these
are only three of many VAs in the country--folks are not going
to answer the phone.
On February 14, this Administration fired over 1,000 VA
workers--1,000 VA workers--so, you know, when you cut staff,
you cut services. And when you cut services, these are more
than just budget decisions. It is a betrayal of the American
promise. Our servicemen and women deserve better. They fought
in the line of fire with an understanding that when they came
home, they would have efficacious health benefits, social
services, mental health services. That was our promise, and it
is not just in this Administration that we have broken our
promise. I will say that we have not done what we should have
in the past and currently in the present, but to annihilate
critical staff supporting critical lives of folks who dedicated
their lifespan to this country, it is a betrayal of a lexicon
of America First that I am hearing every single day.
You know, sir, I do not have a question for you. Again, I
am thanking you. But last week I visited an NIH-funded clinic,
and I know we are not talking so much about NIH in your report,
a Nobel Prize winning scientist and physician scientists on her
team, and young American students have dedicated their
professional careers to ending genetic diseases, like sickle
cell. They are there. They have a cure. The trials have gone
really, really well. They are looking at moving forward
treatment for ALS and for folks who have suffered from ALS and
have buried your uncles and your mothers, and your fathers, and
your cousins, and your nieces, you know, the devastation of
that disease.
For folks who are struggling, themselves, with dementia,
you know, the devastation in the world when financially that
your families have had to go through. This lab in Berkeley,
California has the best and the brightest scientist, and they
are facing because, again, of this effort to move efficiency, a
$37 million cut that will all but halt the research and send
those students home. That is not fear mongering. That is fact.
So, for all of the patients, those who are in the operating
rooms, sitting outside, waiting for your folks to come out,
those folks who are care workers, sitting at home trying to
figure out how you are going to make ends meet because you
cannot work because your father has devastating dementia, I
want us to understand what is at play. I am not blaming anyone.
What I am saying is, we are making bad decisions. Yes, we need
a more efficacious government, but when you attack the sick,
when you attack literally the scientists who are going to cure
Americans, we are lying to the people here, those young people.
I met one young man who has dedicated his life to curing
cancer. He is in that lab. He does not know if he is going to
be able to continue. America First looks something very
different than what we are purporting here today about creating
an efficacious government.
The last thing I will say, and I again, appreciate knowing
a lot about your organization and while you do not provide
direction necessarily to government departments when they have
done staff reductions, what your Agency has done is guide
directors to make those reductions using a process that is
concurrent with evaluations, concurrent with making sure that
there is deep communication, making sure that those employees
have an exit plan that will not exacerbate homelessness in our
communities. Thousands of workers have been laid off with no
evaluation. We have not stayed true to our union contracts. We
need to create a government that is efficacious and efficient,
but this ain't it. Thank you so much. I yield my time.
Chairman Comer. The gentlelady yields back. The Chair
recognizes Mr. Fallon from Texas.
Mr. Fallon. Mr. Chairman, thank you. You know, we sit here
all day and we hear folks pontificating, and it is the same old
broken record, and I fear that it is going to be like this for
2 years that, you know, you hear Elon Musk and you do hear fear
mongering, and you do hear ``billionaires,'' ``unelected
billionaires,'' ``unelected oligarchs,'' blah, blah, blah. The
fact of the matter is that when I was serving in the Air Force,
I saw many in the middle, many Federal workers that did a
fabulous job. They were gold coins for this country.
Unfortunately, I saw equal, probably slightly larger, number
that were a complete waste of taxpayer money. It was just not
operating efficiently, and they did not have the motivations.
And that is why I think even the father of modern
progressivism, Franklin Delano Roosevelt, feared, and was not a
fan of, public sector unions.
I want to thank you, Comptroller General Dodaro, for your
years of service, half a century, dare I say, started when you
were 5, you had an illustrious career, very successful one, and
a decade-and-a-half in your current position, and sincerely,
thank you. Also, you have done significant work with operating
inefficiencies in the Federal Government. I think that you
could argue, in a sense, that you were DOGE before DOGE or DOGE
was cool, or at least for half the people on this Committee,
cool, what have you. But the concept is not new. Long before
Donald Trump ever ran for public office, you were doing your
work and looking to get a lot of bang for that taxpayer buck,
but that is something that should be bipartisan. It does not
seem to be, unfortunately, but, you know, I am an internal
optimist and we can hope for a better day tomorrow.
Do you think, sir, that the Federal Government did, does,
or will operate at maximum efficiency right now?
Mr. Dodaro. It does not.
Mr. Fallon. Listen, I had a small company of a hundred
employees, private sector. I was making a buck. We did not
operate at maximum efficiency. It would be wonderful if we
could, but you cannot, and there is absolutely no way, Federal
bureaucracy of millions of people. I mean, what are you
finding? Was it about $40 billion a year that you have saved?
Mr. Dodaro. Yes.
Mr. Fallon. Because you are doing your work and maybe then,
maybe, we could argue that oversight and accountability works
looking for those efficiencies and quantifying that, and trying
to organize it into an effort where we can increase the scale.
It is a good thing for the country.
And I just went to Austin, Texas. I was in the Texas
legislature for 8 years, in the House and the Senate, and
visited with some of my colleagues and then some experts in the
Inspector General's office in Texas, and they were telling us
in their professional opinions and these folks have done it.
One of them, Mr. Chairman, served for 25 years investigating
primarily Medicaid fraud. And I asked, in your professional
opinion, after a quarter century doing what you have done, of
the $50 billion that Texas spends on entitlements, what
majority of that is fraud, waste, and abuse, what percentage
rather, and he said, at best, 10 percent, and at worst,
probably just north of 20 percent.
Mr. Dodaro. Yes.
Mr. Fallon. So, just in Texas alone, we are talking about
probably $7.5 billion of money that is spent by the taxpayers,
but it is not getting to the people that need it. You have got
folks that lie, you know, and sometimes the honor system stuff
where they are making much more income than they admit to, or
you have got the fraudsters and the organized criminals that
steal.
Mr. Dodaro. Right.
Mr. Fallon. And they are very good at it. They are very
sophisticated. And so, taking a look at it, we should not be
scared of it. We should embrace it. We should run toward it and
not run away from it. And not play political games or demonize
the most successful, you know, human being in history in the
private sector.
So, I wanted to ask you also, sir, some of these
initiatives that you had with your High Risk List, well, I
believe, need congressional action. What specific actions can
we realistically take, you think, in the next year or two see a
noticeable difference in improvement?
Mr. Dodaro. Yes. One is to make permanent the use of the
death master file to have Social Security give it to the
Treasury Department. That is only on a pilot basis. It has
already saved millions of dollars. It needs to be made
permanent. We should not be paying deceased people. It took me
a number of years to convince Congress to even make that a
pilot program. I never thought it would be so hard to stop
paying dead people, but apparently it was.
Mr. Fallon. Are they all in Chicago?
Mr. Dodaro. I do not know.
Mr. Fallon. No.
Mr. Dodaro. I do not think so. I think they are more spread
around.
Mr. Fallon. Yes.
Mr. Dodaro. But in any event, that is No. 1. No. 2 would be
to extend the statute of limitations for fraud in the
unemployment insurance program. It is about ready to expire at
the 5-year mark. Congress should do as it did with Paycheck
Protection Program and extend it for 5 more years to make it 10
years. There are hundreds of cases still being investigated
that, I think, need to come to a conclusion.
Mr. Fallon. Was that for the Social Security?
Mr. Dodaro. Unemployment.
Mr. Fallon. Unemployment fraud.
Mr. Dodaro. Unemployment insurance fraud, extend the
statute of limitations. Make site-neutral payments a reality
for Medicare. If you go to a doctor who is affiliated with a
hospital, Medicare pays you more than if you go to a doctor in
a private practice. It costs more for co-pays for
beneficiaries. CBO has already said in the next 10 years, it
would save $153 billion. I got many other ones, that I could,
you know, enumerate, but those are three biggies.
Mr. Fallon. Thank you very much. We would love to get with
your office on getting an extensive list, and, again, thank you
for your service. Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
Chairman Comer. The gentleman yields back. The Chair
recognizes Mr. Min.
Mr. Min. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Dodaro, congratulations
on your retirement, and thank you for your service. I
appreciate your suggestions, and as a freshman, new to your
particular suggestions, these high-risk projects, but
appreciate the concept.
Like some of my colleagues, I want to first just briefly
talk about DOGE, the Department of Government Efficiency, which
is apparently not a department, but a temporary organization
with all the authorities of a department or agency, but none of
the legal requirements that would otherwise apply to a
department or agency.
Now temporary organizations, you may know, under Federal
statute are limited to specific project or study. President
Trump's executive order creating DOGE made clear that DOGE's
authority was specifically limited to ``data modernization.''
But as has been widely reported, under the leadership of Elon
Musk, DOGE has far exceeded those statutory and executive order
limitations. DOGE employees have taken over the Federal Payment
System. They have received access to sensitive personal data
for any person who has ever received a check from the Federal
Government. They have frozen Federal employees out of their
computer systems. They have tried to terminate agencies and
programs, like the Department of Education and USAID.
So, Mr. Dodaro, I assume you are familiar with the United
States Constitution?
Mr. Dodaro. I am.
Mr. Min. And so many of my GOP colleagues today were
talking about Article II of the Constitution. Apparently, that
was in their talking points for today. But Article I, Section 1
states that all legislative powers are reserved to the Congress
of the United States. Article I, Section 9gives us exclusive
authority to appropriate money to Congress. Are you aware of
any provision in the Constitution that allows the executive
branch to unilaterally take away our legislative and
appropriations authority?
Mr. Dodaro. I am not aware of that, no.
Mr. Min. That is right because it does not exist. Are you
aware of any provision in the Constitution that allows a
special government employee appointed by the President to
unilaterally take away our legislative and appropriations
authority?
Mr. Dodaro. I do not think Constitution addresses that.
Mr. Min. It makes clear it is our authority only. And so,
what is happening right now with DOGE is unconstitutional,
illegal, and I will make that clear because they are
overturning laws that we passed, they are deleting agencies
that we have funded and created, and they are doing so without
consultation with Congress. So, I want to make that clear. Now,
Elon Musk has claimed he wanted to eliminate $2 trillion in
waste from the Federal Government. Do you believe that we are
going to find $2 trillion in waste if we look through the
budget?
Mr. Dodaro. Not on an annual basis.
Mr. Min. But I think he is talking annually, actually.
Mr. Dodaro. Yes, that is why I say that. But no, I do not
think that that is possible.
Mr. Min. And are you aware of the size of the domestic
discretionary budget, which is the focus of this hearing and
basically every effort that DOGE is looking into?
Mr. Dodaro. Yes.
Mr. Min. What is that roughly?
Mr. Dodaro. Let us see. It is about a third of the----
Mr. Min. Nine hundred billion dollars sound about right?
Mr. Dodaro. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Mr. Min. OK.
Mr. Dodaro. It is a little more than that, but yes.
Mr. Min. Nine hundred 17 billion, I believe, is the exact
number from the point.
Mr. Dodaro. It may be a little higher than that.
Mr. Min. OK.
Mr. Dodaro. Yes.
Mr. Min. And that is less than $2 trillion, just so we are
clear. So, we could cut everything from the domestic
discretionary budget, every program, every Federal employee,
and we are only a fraction of the way to $2 trillion, right?
Mr. Dodaro. Yes. Well, I mean, Social Security is over
trillion. Medicare is over a trillion.
Mr. Min. Yes.
Mr. Dodaro. Interest on the debt is over a trillion.
Mr. Min. Yes.
Mr. Dodaro. Medicaid is more than halfway there.
Mr. Min. Reclaiming my time. So, $2 trillion then.
Mr. Dodaro. Right.
Mr. Min. Yes. I think you are suggesting this, but I just
want to get to the point.
Mr. Dodaro. Right.
Mr. Min. We are looking at $2 trillion, and we are only
going to get there probably if we cut Medicaid, Social
Security, Medicare. Is that about right?
Mr. Dodaro. You would have to get to the big programs. You
cannot cut the big dollars if you do not go to where there is
spending.
Mr. Min. That is right. And so, do you think there is $2
trillion in waste if we look in Medicaid, Medicare, and Social
Security?
Mr. Dodaro. No.
Mr. Min. OK. Do you think there is $100 billion in waste?
Mr. Dodaro. Well----
Mr. Min. So, let me reclaim my time. Many of my House
Republican colleagues have expressed their concerns about the
$36 trillion debt. I am also concerned about that. Their
proposed budget would cut $3 trillion, including for lifeline
programs like Medicaid, SNAP, healthcare MET. You know, we are
talking about food for hungry babies, healthcare for sick
veterans, but it also adds over $4.5 trillion in tax cuts. So,
my question to you is math. If you cut $3 trillion in spending,
but also reduce revenues by $4.5 trillion, does that increase
or reduce the national debt?
Mr. Dodaro. Well, according to that scenario, it would
increase.
Mr. Min. And that is exactly right. Now I want to get one
last little line of questioning because many of my constituents
have told me they are concerned about the waste, fraud, abuse,
and mismanagement associated with the idea that one person,
Elon Musk, gets to decide so many aspects of the Federal budget
these days. They are concerned not only that it is illegal and
unconstitutional, but that so many of his decisions seem
designed to go after the agencies that have tried to regulate
his businesses, his competitors. So, my last question to you is
if an auditor were coming to audit something for you, but they
were a major investor in one of the companies that you were
looking at, would you hire them to work on that project?
Mr. Dodaro. No.
Mr. Min. All right. Thank you very much.
Mr. Dodaro. We have been asked to, and we will be looking
at the arrangements for those as it relates to ethics and
conflict of interest.
Mr. Min. Well, thank you very much and I, again, appreciate
your service.
Mr. Dodaro. Thank you.
Chairman Comer. The Chair now recognizes himself for 5
minutes. Mr. Dodaro, what are the worst programs for improper
payments over the last year?
Mr. Dodaro. Over the last year, it is Medicare, Medicaid,
the Earned Income Tax Credit, and Supplemental Nutrition
Assistance Program, and then bringing up that would be
unemployment insurance.
Chairman Comer. Medicare, Medicaid, and SNAP. The 2025 High
Risk report, like the previous reports, continues to paint an
alarming picture of the extent of improper payments, those
issues facing Medicare and Medicaid. That I think we agree, and
I know the American people agree, that we should not be giving
payments to people or businesses improperly. So, last year,
Medicare improperly paid roughly $51 billion in Medicaid,
improperly paid about $50 billion. That is over a $100 billion.
So, why do these programs continue to have such massive issues
with improper payments year after year, because GAO's released
report estimated between $233 billion and $521 billion, that is
half a trillion, was lost annually due to fraud between 2018
and 2022. But Medicare and Medicaid, in particular, $100
billion in the last year. Why does this happen?
Mr. Dodaro. Yes. Well, I think you have a need for better
provider screening. In other words, you know, letting providers
in there and you have a need for better enrollment screening.
This has been a consistent problem, particularly in the
Medicaid area, yes, in that area. Now, during the pandemic, for
3 years, everybody who was eligible at the beginning was deemed
eligible throughout to the end of the national emergency. So, I
do not even think the recent numbers, as big as they are, are
the full amount of improper payments. So, there needs to be
more rigorous screening and more attention on managed care
portion, and more auditing there of both of them.
Chairman Comer. So, during COVID, when the Federal
Government lost its mind, and that spanned two Administrations,
people were put on Medicaid without proper screening and things
like that, supposed to be temporarily?
Mr. Dodaro. Right.
Chairman Comer. It is supposed to be a temporary safety net
program, and what has happened is it has become an entitlement.
And one of the things that we are proposing in the budget
reconciliation bill is not cutting Medicare and Medicaid, like
my colleagues on the other side of the aisle, it is trying to
reform Medicare and Medicaid to where there are no improper
payments. We recognize the fact that you have been writing
about this for years. The problem is not getting any better.
People got on Medicaid during COVID, supposed to be
temporarily, but they are still on there.
Mr. Dodaro. Right.
Chairman Comer. They are still on there. They are not
supposed to be in there. Hardworking taxpaying Americans have
to pay for their health insurance, and there are people that
are gaming the system getting on Medicare and Medicaid. That is
who we are looking at in this budget reconciliation bill. That
is what President Trump and DOGE are looking at. This is not
something that we made up. This is not something that we pulled
out of the air. You all have been writing about this for years,
and we recognize there is a problem. But the fear, people say,
well, why hasn't Congress done anything? This is why. The way
they are acting.
People know that Social Security is being skimmed. People
know that unemployment is being skimmed. People know in this
chamber that Medicare and Medicaid is being skimmed, but they
wait. They wait for one person, and it is always a Republican,
to be bold enough to say we need to look at this and we need to
stop these improper payments. We need to stop the waste, fraud,
abuse, and mismanagement. And then the Democrats go, oh my God,
they are going to cut, they are going to cut, the Republicans
are going to cut, and then they get their constituents all
fired up. They say, oh, Elon Musk is going to steal your Social
Security check, and nothing gets done.
We are serious about it. The President has a mandate. We
appreciate the work that you and your staff has done
identifying the High Risk List. But one reason that people in
both parties, for numerous Congresses, have refused to even
look at Medicare and Medicaid fraud, is because they knew that
somebody would try to score political points and spook the
elderly people that need Medicare, the children that need
Medicaid, the children that need SNAP. They will not face the
reality that people have been added to the rolls that should
not be on the rolls. There are people ineligible. There are
providers in all 50 states that are abusing the system. And it
is going to take someone bold, it is going to take a Congress
with the backbone to do something about it.
And I will conclude by saying this. We do not want to cut
benefits for children. We do not want to cut benefits for the
elderly and the truly needy. We want to look at the system and
get rid of the waste, fraud, and abuse. That is what DOGE is
about. That is what President Trump campaigned on. And that is
what I hope at least the Majority party in here is committed to
get his back and try to do that because the American people are
fed up. They have lost confidence in government.
And just as Ms. Greene said that an overwhelming majority
of people approve of what the objectives of DOGE are, but it is
going to be up to Congress to get it done. I think we are
seeing tonight during this hearing, there are some people that
are going to obstruct and kick and try to score political
points, and there are some that are serious, they have rolled
up their sleeves, and, hopefully, we will get something done.
So, thank you for your High Risk report, and hopefully,
this Congress and this Administration will have the backbone to
do something about this heist of the American taxpayer dollars.
So, thank you. My time has expired.
I now recognize Ms. Pressley, I guess, or Ms. Crockett. Who
is next? Ms. Pressley.
Ms. Pressley. Thank you. Thank you to the Comptroller
General for being here today. I am grateful for your service,
and you are a great reminder of the ways in which government
does benefit people every day, but they are often unaware.
Congress has a duty to ensure that government operates
efficiently, effectively, and in the public interest. For any
elected official, constituent services are our bread and
butter.
I know long before I was an elected official, I worked as a
constituent services advocate, a Social Security liaison,
advocating for our most vulnerable. If your grandfather cannot
get an appointment at the VA or if your mom is stuck on hold
with the Social Security Administration for hours, you should
be angry and we should be fixing it. But instead of fixing it,
the Trump Administration has turned over the keys to an
unelected billionaire, Elon Musk, through the so-called
Department of Government Efficiency, or DOGE. Mr. Dodaro, can
you define--just so we are operating with the same
understanding and comprehension here--can you define government
efficiency?
Mr. Dodaro. Well, efficiency is getting the best possible
outcome with the least amount of resources.
Ms. Pressley. Right. It is not about slashing budgets for
the sake of headlines while weakening the very services that
keep people safe, fed, and housed. True efficiency is about
making government work better for the people, protecting the
rights, strengthening essential services, and ensuring tax
dollars go to the public good, not private profits. By that
standard, DOGE is not here to serve anyone other than Elon
Musk. But let us take a step back. History is important. Mr.
Dodaro, do you know how the term, ``DOGE,'' came about?
Mr. Dodaro. Not particularly.
Ms. Pressley. Well, it came from an internet meme featuring
a Shiba Inu dog that went viral on Reddit, and that meme led to
the creation of Dogecoin, a joke cryptocurrency, eventually
caught the attention of none other than Elon Musk in 2019. More
than 5 years ago, Elon Musk started tweeting about DOGE, making
jokes and using the cryptocurrency for profit. He was not
interested in government efficiency. He only cared about making
money. That is why the actual creator of Dogecoin said that
Elon ``was and always will be a grifter.''
Mr. Chair, I ask unanimous consent to enter into the record
this article titled, ``Dogecoin Co-Creator Calls Elon Musk a
Grifter Who Had Trouble Running Basic Code.''
Chairman Comer. Without objection, so ordered.
Ms. Pressley. Talk about did not earn it. So, here we are
in 2025, and Elon Musk is still using DOGE to make money. This
time, instead of pumping up a joke currency for his own
profits, he is using a meme-inspired agency to launch a hostile
takeover of the Federal Government.
DOGE has recklessly fired FAA employees and attacked the
Agency all while Musk's own aerospace business benefits from
regulatory rollbacks, make it makes sense. DOGE dismantled the
Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, a watchdog agency that
returned $21 billion to victims of fraud when he heard it was
planning to investigate his company. And just last week in a
moment of stunning incompetence, the Administration frantically
tried to un-fire hundreds of employees they had to let go the
day before. Why? Because those employees were overseeing our
nuclear stockpile. Those employees were managing the bird flu
outbreak. Those employees were providing not-nice-to-have, but
essential must-have services that all of our constituents rely
on.
Mr. Dodaro, do firing workers and then trying to un-fire
them sound like government efficiency to you?
Mr. Dodaro. It is not a best practice.
Ms. Pressley. Sure, it does not to me. What kind of
efficiency makes people hungrier? What kind of efficiency makes
people poorer? What kind of efficiency makes people less safe?
If Trump and Musk truly wanted to make government better than
they would turn to the actual efficiency experts at the
Government Accountability Office, but this was never about
efficiency. Just like the DOGE meme, the lives of hardworking
families are a joke to them. I will not stand for it. I know my
colleagues will not either, and we will continue to fight for a
government rooted in real efficiency, one that works for
everyone, not just for billionaires. I yield back.
Chairman Comer. The Chair now recognizes Ms. Tlaib.
Ms. Tlaib. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you so much. For me,
it is really ridiculous that we are sitting here today
listening actually to this incredibly thoughtful presentation
and report from you about all the ways we can make government
work better for our families, but tomorrow, my Republican
colleagues are actually going to ignore all of that. They are
going to ignore all of your thoughtful and very investigative,
thorough report of looking how we can serve our communities
better.
And so, it is alarming to me because I do not know if you
know this, Mr. Dodaro, like, our phones have been off the hook
of people just, increased anxiety, fear of what is going to
happen, many parents who have special needs children who just
cannot imagine Medicare and health services are being cut.
Another person who has access to Affordable Care Act is saying,
I cannot believe they are thinking about allowing that to
increase. I think it averaged by $600.
I understand from your report, some of the biggest
challenges in delivering for our families, for the people that
we represent here, stems from staffing shortages, right? And
skill gaps that make it very difficult to be effective in
delivering disaster assistance. I believe your report said
about responding to public health emergencies and keeping
groceries safe to eat, food, safe to eat. Is that correct?
Mr. Dodaro. That is correct. Twenty of the 38 areas are on
there, in part, because of skill gaps and shortages.
Ms. Tlaib. So, you are talking about we do not have enough
people?
Mr. Dodaro. In some cases, that is true, but in most cases,
it is having the right skills necessary to do it.
Ms. Tlaib. That is right.
Mr. Dodaro. It is both. It is both.
Ms. Tlaib. I mean, for me, a lot of my colleagues talk
about, like, oh, Elon Musk is about making more money. I
actually think he just likes experimenting, and he is
experimenting with us, the American people. It is like a huge
experiment and a game or something of that sort. I mean, 1 day
they turn the lights off in one department, the next day they
turn it back on. I mean, we are talking about, like, Head Start
programs that did not even get access to the portal until, I
think, this past week, and these are folks that are offering
services already, right? They already rendered the services and
they are trying to get reimbursed by us. So, do you think, I
mean, this Elon Musk experiment of indiscriminately firing
hundreds of thousands of Federal employees working on these key
issues will make a positive impact in addressing some of these
life and death challenges?
Mr. Dodaro. Yes. I think there is a need for more
efficiency in government. I want to be clear about that, and I
do think----
Ms. Tlaib. Yes, I agree. They should start with the
Pentagon budget, but OK.
Mr. Dodaro. Yes. Well, it is across the board in
government. I think you can be more efficient, but you have to
approach it in a more thoughtful, deliberative process.
Ms. Tlaib. But, Mr. Dodaro, do not you think they are
hiding behind efficiency? They are saying it is efficiency, but
it is irresponsibility. It is chaotic.
Mr. Dodaro. Yes, it is not my job to decide, though, as I
told you, but I do not----
Ms. Tlaib. Mr. Dodaro, one day they say, OK, all these
folks are fired. The next day they say, OK, you can come back.
Mr. Dodaro. Well, as I said, that is not a good practice.
Well, the good part about it is they recognized it and they
brought them back right away, but they----
Ms. Tlaib. Yes, but even when they try to turn the lights
back on, it is flickering.
Mr. Dodaro. I think you need to take a more deliberate
process. The one thing I have learned--I have been auditing the
Federal bureaucracy for 50 years--that you need to find out
what is the reason why things are the way they are before you
change it. Usually, there is a good reason, but not often, but
you need to know the answer to that question before you start
making changes. Otherwise, you have unintended consequences.
Ms. Tlaib. I mean, do you know what they did today?
Mr. Dodaro. No, I have been here all day.
Ms. Tlaib. No, because I think it is important, but you
know what they did today? They let go 28 veteran workers. So,
John Dingell VA in Detroit, it is a veteran hospital. They let
go 28 employees. I called, I said, what did they do? Like, I
asked a simple question. I do not know if they are doing that.
What did they do? Do you know what they did? Most of them were
the people that worked in cleaning the surgical equipment. Do
you know that we had an audit of the VA? You know about this,
right?
Mr. Dodaro. Yes.
Ms. Tlaib. And people died.
Mr. Dodaro. We did the audit.
Ms. Tlaib. Mr. Dodaro?
Mr. Dodaro. Yes.
Ms. Tlaib. People die in the John Dingell VA Hospital
because we did not have people cleaning the surgical equipment.
Yes or no.
Mr. Dodaro. Yes.
Ms. Tlaib. So, they just let go all these people. So, you
are telling me my veterans are going to go under a knife, and
we do not know if somebody is cleaning the surgical equipment?
Mr. Dodaro. This was a particular problem with colonoscopy.
Ms. Tlaib. How is that efficiency? He is experimenting with
the lives of our constituents and our residents. He should come
here voluntarily--they will not allow us to subpoena him--and
answer our questions. What are the reasons behind you letting
go, again, essential services? That is not efficiency. It is
irresponsible. It is almost negligent. It is chaos.
Mr. Dodaro, your service is welcomed because we believe we
want to be effective in delivering for our families, we do, but
this is not the way to do it. And I really do thank you for
your service. I know it is a long way, and it must be so
frustrating. God, watching this last few weeks must be just
unbelievable for you. For us, hearing our residents in tears
has been painful. So, thank you all. Thank you.
Mr. Dodaro. Thank you.
Chairman Comer. The Chair recognizes Ms. Crockett.
Ms. Crockett. Thank you so much. And Mr. Dodaro, I am going
to pick up where my colleague left off by, No. 1, thanking you
for your service. I mean, I do not really know if they would
have been trying to push you out, too, because it seems like
anybody that knows what their job is gets pushed out. So,
congrats on your retirement, and I am hoping that you have
sunnier days ahead.
But Ms. Talib just went through a series of things that she
feels like this is other than efficiency, and I have a term for
what I believe is going on. I think it is just downright cruel.
I think that you have people that literally do not have a
heart. They are telling us that, oh, no, no, we are going to
run the Federal Government like a business. Well, let me talk
to you about the people that are allegedly running this
business because the Federal Government ain't a business. But
let me clarify. If it was, I do not want to run like the
President has run businesses.
The President, it is my understanding, has filed bankruptcy
six times. We do not have that luxury in the United States of
America. But even when we start to think about Elon Musk, right
now, as it relates to Tesla, the sales are down. As it relates
to X, he has never made a profit since he bought X. In fact,
the value of X is 75 percent lower than it has ever been. So,
if I am going to go look for somebody to run a business, I am
going to look for someone who is going to run one successfully.
And before people start screaming and yelling about, well, he
is a billionaire, yes, when you know the right people and they
will just give you money, then you can become a billionaire
too, and maybe 1 day all of us will have that kind of access.
But until then, I want to talk about the fact that
congressional Republicans again, as has been stated, they do
not care about government efficiency no more than they care
about government services and programs that constituents rely
on. And just like Elon is hiding from this Committee,
Republicans are now hiding from their constituents.
Under the current Republican budget proposal, 166,000
people in the Chairman's district could lose their Medicaid
benefits, including more than 70,000 children. The same for the
Chairwoman of the DOGE Subcommittee: under the current budget
proposal, 120,000 people in her district could lose Medicaid
benefits, including 75,000 children. This is what efficiency
looks like to Republicans, selling out their own constituents
to pass tax cuts for their billionaire donors and friends, and
rather than taking GAO's recommendations and discussing how
Congress can help make Federal employees and agencies more
efficient, effective, and support it, they are firing
probationary Federal employees, which, again, in my opinion,
has led to planes actually falling out of the sky, but
nevertheless, which is crazy because no one has been more
unproductive than the Republicans on the Oversight Committee.
Nevertheless, Mr. Dodaro, of the 38 high-risk areas in
GAO's 2025 report, more than half are due in part to staffing
or skills gaps, which you have already discussed. In your
written testimony to the Committee, you stated, ``When we have
seen progress on high-risk issues, it is typically involved
three essential elements: congressional action or oversight,
commitment from top leaders at agencies, and active involvement
by the Office of Management and Budget.'' In your opinion, has
Congress done enough to ensure the mass indiscriminate purging
of Federal workforce does not ``impede the government from cost
effectively serving the public and achieving desired results?''
Yes or no.
Mr. Dodaro. Well, I talked before about telling the truth,
the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Sometimes it is not
a yes or no. I think Congress should get more engaged and
proactive in this area. I have always encouraged
administrations in the past to consult Congress in making some
changes. Many of these things deal with laws that Congress
passed, and I think Congress needs to get more active.
Ms. Crockett. I agree. We need to do our constitutional
duty, which is to conduct oversight. So again, I am inviting
Elon or anybody else that is a member of DOGE to come through
and we can have a conversation. In fact, I am not aware of any
recommendations that really go beyond just cutting those
services that people need. There has not been any talk about
cutting any of Elon's contracts, though, not a one, not that I
am aware of. Maybe you are aware of it, but you are aware that
Elon has been getting money from the Federal Government for a
number of years, correct?
Mr. Dodaro. Yes.
Ms. Crockett. OK. And it is my understanding that he has
not made a recommendation to cut any of his money as we are
trying to save money and save this country. At the end of the
day, what I am going to say is that we had the National Highway
Traffic Safety Administration open five investigations on Tesla
for complaints of unexpected braking, loss of steering control,
and crashes while cars were in self-driving mode. And Tesla
tried to block at least two rulings from the National Labor
Relations Board, punishing Elon for tweeting that factory
workers would lose stock options if they joined a union. This
is a problem. Can you at least tell me that you agree, that you
understand what a conflict of interest is, and that Elon----
Mr. Dodaro. I am well aware of what a conflict of interest
is, and we have been asked by the Congress to take a look at
this situation, and we will.
Ms. Crockett. Well, I appreciate that, and with that, Mr.
Chair, I will yield.
Chairman Comer. The gentlelady yields back. That concludes
our questioners.
In closing, I want to thank our witness, Mr. Dodaro, for
your testimony today. Thank you for your many years of service.
I want to thank your staff once again for your input today as
well.
With that, and without objection, all Members have 5
legislative days within which to submit materials and
additional written questions for the witnesses, which will be
forwarded to the witnesses.
Chairman Comer. If there is no further business, without
objection, the Committee stands adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 5:44 p.m., the Committee was adjourned.]
[all]