[House Hearing, 119 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]


            RESTORING MULTIPLE USE TO REVITALIZE AMERICA'S
                  PUBLIC LANDS AND RURAL COMMUNITIES

=======================================================================

                           OVERSIGHT HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

                     SUBCOMMITTEE ON FEDERAL LANDS

                                 OF THE

                     COMMITTEE ON NATURAL RESOURCES
                     U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS

                             FIRST SESSION

                               __________

                       Tuesday, February 11, 2025

                               __________

                            Serial No. 119-6

                               __________

       Printed for the use of the Committee on Natural Resources
       
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        Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov
                                   or
          Committee address: http://naturalresources.house.gov
          
          
                                 __________

                   U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE                    
58-952 PDF                  WASHINGTON : 2025                  
          
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------     
     

                     COMMITTEE ON NATURAL RESOURCES

 
                      BRUCE WESTERMAN, AR, Chairman
		  ROBERT J. WITTMAN, VA, Vice Chairman
                    JARED HUFFMAN, CA, Ranking Member

Robert J. Wittman, VA,			Raul M. Grijalva, AZ,
 Vice Chairman				  Ranking Member Emeritus
Tom McClintock, CA			
Paul A. Gosar, AZ			Joe Neguse, CO
Aumua Amata C. Radewagen,		Teresa Leger Fernandez,
 AS					 NM
Doug LaMalfa, CA			Melanie Stansbury, NM
Daniel Webster, FL			Val Hoyle, OR
Russ Fulcher, ID			Seth Magaziner, RI
Pete Stauber, MN			Jared Golden, ME
Tom Tiffany, WI				Dave Min, CA			
Lauren Boebert, CO			Maxine Dexter, OR
Cliff Bentz, OR				Pablo Jose Hernandez, PR
Jen Kiggans, VA				Emily Randall, WA
Wesley P. Hunt, TX			Yassamin Ansari, AZ
Mike Collins, GA			Sarah Elfreth, MD
Harriet M. Hageman, WY			Adam Gray, CA
Mark Amodei, NV				Luz Rivas, CA
Tim Walberg, MI				Nydia Velazquez, NY
Mike Ezell, MS				Debbie Dingell, MI
Celest Maloy, Utah			Darren Soto, FL
Addison McDowell, NC			Julia Brownley, CA
Jeff Crank, CO		
Nick Begich, AK
Jeff Hurd, CO
Mike Kennedy, UT                              

                     Vivian Moeglein, Staff Director
                Ana Unruh Cohen, Democratic Staff Director
                    http://naturalresources.house.gov


                    Vivian Moeglein, Staff Director
                      William David, Chief Counsel
               Ana Unruh Cohen, Democratic Staff Director
                   http://naturalresources.house.gov
                                 ------                                

                     SUBCOMMITTEE ON FEDERAL LANDS

                       TOM TIFFANY, WI, Chairman
                      MIKE KENNEDY, UT, Vice Chair
                     JOE NEGUSE, CO, Ranking Member

Tom McClintock, CA                   Raul M. Grijalva, AZ
Russ Fulcher, ID                     Teresa Leger Fernandez, NM
Pete Stauber, MN                     Melanie A. Stansbury, NM
Cliff Bentz, OR                      Jared Golden, ME
Wesley P. Hunt, TX                   Maxine Dexter, OR
Mark Amodei, NV                      Emily Randall, WA
Celeste Maloy, UT                    Jared Huffman, CA, ex officio
Mike Kennedy, UT
Bruce Westerman, AR, ex officio

                               ---------
                               
                                CONTENTS

                              ----------                              
                                                                   Page

Hearing Memo.....................................................     v
Hearing held on Tuesday, February 11, 2025.......................     1

Statement of Members:

    Tiffany, Hon. Tom, a Representative in Congress from the 
      State of Wisconsin.........................................     1
    Huffman, Hon. Jared, a Representative in Congress from the 
      State of California........................................     3

Statement of Witnesses:

    Clarke, Hon. Eric, County Attorney, Washington County, Utah, 
      St. George, Utah...........................................     5
        Prepared statement of....................................     6
    Canterbury, Tim, President, Public Lands Council, Howard, 
      Colorado...................................................    14
        Prepared statement of....................................    15
        Questions submitted for the record.......................    18
    Gibbs, Dan, Executive Director, Colorado Department of 
      Natural Resources, Denver, Colorado........................    20
        Prepared statement of....................................    21
    Neiman, Jim, President and CEO, Neiman Enterprises, Hulett, 
      Wyoming....................................................    23
        Prepared statement of....................................    24

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To:        House Committee on Natural Resources Republican Members

From:     Subcommittee on Federal Lands: Aniela Butler, Brandon Miller, 
        and Jason Blore ([email protected]; 
        [email protected]; and [email protected]; 
        x6-7736)

Date:     February 10, 2025

Subject:   Oversight Hearing on ``Restoring Multiple Use to Revitalize 
        America's Public Lands and Rural Communities''
________________________________________________________________________
        _______
    The Subcommittee on Federal Lands will hold an oversight hearing on 
``Restoring Multiple Use to Revitalize America's Public Lands and Rural 
Communities'' on Tuesday, February 11, 2025, at 2 p.m. in Room 1324 
Longworth House Office Building.
    Member offices are requested to notify Will Rodriguez 
(Will.Rodriguez @mail.house.gov) by 4:30 p.m. on Monday, February 10, 
if their Member intends to participate in the hearing.
I. KEY MESSAGES

     The Trump administration has promised a prompt return to 
            multiple use on our federal lands, which will bring 
            immediate relief and concrete benefits to struggling 
            Americans, particularly those in rural, western 
            communities.

     Returning multiple-use principles to federal land 
            management will help lower housing costs, ease the way for 
            much-needed development projects, allow for increased 
            access to public lands, improve forest health, bolster 
            rural economies, and secure American energy dominance for 
            years to come.

     In contrast, the Biden administration pursued a variety of 
            heavy-handed, preservationist policies. Besides harming 
            rural communities, these policies marked an egregious 
            departure from longstanding and widely accepted multiple 
            use principles.

     Through the vague ``30x30 Initiative,'' the controversial 
            ``Public Lands Rule,'' unpopular national monument 
            expansions, restrictive resource management plans, and 
            other ill-advised policies, the Biden administration 
            revealed the alarming scope and dogmatic application of its 
            preservationist agenda.

II. WITNESSES

     The Honorable Eric Clarke, County Attorney, Washington 
            County, St. George, Utah

     Mr. Jim D. Neiman, President and Chief Executive Officer, 
            Neiman Enterprises, Hulett, Wyoming

     Mr. Tim Canterbury, President, Public Lands Council, 
            Howard, Colorado

     Mr. Dan Gibbs, Executive Director, Colorado Department of 
            Natural Resources, Denver, Colorado [Minority Witness]
III. BACKGROUND
The Biden Administration's Harmful Disregard of Multiple-Use Principles
The Significance of Multiple Use
    The federal government owns approximately 640 million acres of land 
in the United States (U.S.), covering about 28 percent of the country's 
landmass.1 In America's western states, federal land 
ownership approaches 50 percent of the landmass. These lands fall 
primarily under the jurisdictions of the Bureau of Land Management 
(BLM) and the U.S. Forest Service (USFS).2 The BLM's 
enabling statute, the Federal Land Policy and Management Act of 1976 
(FLPMA), requires the agency to manage its 244 million acres of land 
and more than 700 million acres of subsurface mineral estate in 
accordance with multiple use and sustained yield (commonly referred to 
as a `multiple use mandate').3 Multiple uses include 
livestock grazing, energy and mineral development, timber production, 
outdoor recreation, and wildlife habitat protection.4 FLPMA 
further defines the term ``sustained yield'' to require ``the 
achievement and maintenance in perpetuity'' of multiple 
uses.5 Similarly, USFS must guarantee multiple use and 
sustained yield on America's national forests.6
    For nearly 50 years, the multiple use mandate has guided productive 
and responsible administration of America's public lands. The 
principle's primacy in law and practice during this lengthy period 
indicated broad acknowledgment of a simple truth: multiple use is 
essential to the Western way of life. With so much western land under 
federal control, thousands of rural economies depend on access to 
federal land for energy and mineral development, recreational activity, 
livestock grazing, timber production, and other activities supporting 
economic livelihoods. In fact, BLM estimated that its lands supported 
783,000 jobs in fiscal year (FY) 2021.7
    Throughout its term, however, the Biden administration jettisoned 
longstanding multiple use principles to implement a radical 
environmentalist agenda. Turning a blind eye to the needs of western 
and rural America, Biden's federal land managers obsessed over climate 
change, environmental justice, clean energy, and resource preservation. 
They advanced these goals through policies and programs such as the 
``30x30 Initiative,'' the BLM's ``Public Lands Rule,'' national 
monument creation and expansion, preservationist resource management 
plans (RMPs), the ``Old Growth'' Initiative, and related efforts. These 
extreme measures jeopardized the well-being of countless western and 
rural communities.8 The purpose of this hearing is to 
examine the harmful consequences of the Biden administration's 
abandonment of multiple use and demonstrate the numerous benefits that 
will result from restoring this time-honored principle to the 
management of America's public lands.
The Radical and Ill-Defined ``30x30 Initiative''
    The vast scope of the Biden administration's preservationist agenda 
was quickly revealed when, on January 27, 2021, President Biden issued 
Executive Order (E.O.) 14008, directing the U.S. Department of the 
Interior (DOI), the U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA), the Council 
on Environmental Quality (CEQ), and other federal agencies to preserve 
at least 30 percent of the country's lands and waters by 
2030.9 Observers soon highlighted significant problems with 
the E.O., including its extraordinary vagueness and failure to define 
basic terms.10 For instance, it was not explained whether 
conservation efforts on private and state lands and waters would have 
counted toward meeting the 30 percent goal. Similarly, the Biden 
administration failed to identify a baseline of current conservation 
practices to measure progress toward the 30x30 goal. The federal 
government already owned roughly 28 percent of U.S. land when the 
Initiative was launched.11 If this amount had been used as a 
baseline, the federal estate would have still had to grow by an 
additional 41 million acres of land in less than a decade to meet the 
30 percent goal. This translates to an area roughly the size of the 
State of Washington.12

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    This unscientific and ill-defined goal had so many issues that 
the Biden administration even attempted to rebrand the effort as the 
``America the Beautiful Initiative,'' an implicit acknowledgment of 
30x30's willful detachment from mathematical realities. Further 
confusion resulted from the previous administration's announcement of a 
``$1 billion'' ``America the Beautiful Challenge'' fund to further the 
30x30 Initiative.13 When asked about how the program would 
meet its $1 billion funding goal, for example, CEQ representatives 
vaguely cited authority under the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law, even 
though that statute contains no mention of either the 30x30 Initiative 
or its objective of ``conserving 30 percent of the nation's lands and 
waters.''14 At the conclusion of the Biden administration, 
despite promises of conservation, 30x30 was only ever cited as a 
justification for locking up lands and resources under restrictive, 
preservationist designations such as national monuments and mineral 
withdrawals.15 Together, these actions demonstrate that the 
30x30 Initiative was a deliberately vague policy to which the Biden 
administration could point when attempting to justify its increasingly 
restrictive land-use policies and further weakening of multiple use.
The Controversial ``Public Lands Rule'' and Natural Asset Companies
    On May 9, 2024, the BLM published its final, so-called 
``Conservation and Landscape Health'' Rule (commonly referred to as the 
``Public Lands Rule'').16 The publication followed more than 
a year of controversy, limited opportunities for public input, and 
well-founded concerns upending the longstanding multiple use 
mandate.17 Under FLPMA, BLM-administered lands are to be 
managed in support of multiple uses, which are exclusively defined to 
only include livestock grazing, energy and mineral development, timber 
production, outdoor recreation, and wildlife habitat 
protection.18 The Public Lands Rule, however, allows BLM to 
elevate conservation above all other uses, thereby threatening the 
traditional uses that many Western communities rely upon for their 
livelihoods.19 Specifically, the rule enables BLM to lease 
federal parcels under new and vaguely defined ``restoration and 
mitigation'' leases and change certain standards governing land-use 
decisions.20 Moreover, if BLM determines that uses 
previously authorized under FLPMA are incompatible with a restoration 
and mitigation lease, new land-health standards, or an Area of Critical 
Environmental Concern (ACEC), those uses would no longer be 
allowed.21
    The Public Lands Rule's new leases are an unaccountable mechanism 
through which wealthy individuals and entities could lock up huge areas 
of public land for preservationist purposes. These leases are broadly 
available to ``entities seeking to restore public lands or mitigate'' 
negative environmental impacts.22 While the initial lease 
term is capped at 10 years, the lease ``can be extended as necessary to 
serve the purpose for which [it] was first issued.''23 Also 
troubling is the fact that the leases are vulnerable to exploitation by 
a new kind of entity, the natural asset company (NAC). A NAC is a 
company ``whose primary purpose is to actively manage, maintain, 
restore . . . and grow the value of natural assets and their production 
of ecosystem services.''24 Developed by the Intrinsic 
Exchange Group (IEG), NACs ``hold the rights to the ecological 
performance'' of prescribed areas, including public lands, for 
``conservation, restoration, or sustainable management.''25 
On September 29, 2023, the New York Stock Exchange requested that the 
Securities and Exchange Commission allow NACs to be listed on the 
exchange.26 Although the proposal was withdrawn after facing 
heavy criticism, IEG maintains that it will continue to pursue 
``different options'' for introducing NACs into financial 
markets.27 Through misguided policies like the Public Lands 
Rule, the Biden administration had made it easier for extreme 
environmental groups or foreign entities, perhaps under the guise of a 
NAC, to hold unaccountable, managerial authority over federal lands. 
This was certainly a marked departure from the idea, codified in 
statute, that BLM lands are supposed to be owned by the public and 
managed to support multiple uses.
Unilateral and Unpopular National Monument Expansions
    Under the Antiquities Act of 1906, Congress authorized the 
president to designate national monuments on federal lands containing 
``historic landmarks, historic and prehistoric structures, or other 
objects of historic or scientific interest.''28 This 
authority was limited, however; among other restrictions, the law 
specified that national monuments ``shall be confined to the smallest 
area compatible with the proper care and management of the objects to 
be protected.''29 Despite the Antiquities Act's intended 
narrow focus, presidents of both parties have repeatedly abused the law 
throughout its history to lock up millions of acres of land under 
onerous restrictions. The 46th president, however, took this brazen 
disregard to new heights. In just four years, President Biden created 
or expanded 12 national monuments and restored the boundaries of three 
others that Presidents Obama and Clinton had created.30 This 
included two national monuments that President Biden created in 
California during the last two weeks of his presidency: the 624,000-
acre Chuckwalla National Monument and the 224,000-acre Sattitla 
Highlands National Monument.31 In total, President Biden 
``used the Antiquities Act more than any first-term president since the 
Carter administration,'' using his expansive interpretation of the 
statute to lock up nearly 5.7 million acres of land.32
    Apart from blocking access to natural resources, national monuments 
often defy local sentiment and limit economic opportunities for 
struggling rural economies.33 Adding insult to injury, 
locals often express concern over ``whether there was sufficient 
consultation with, and support from, Congress, local and state 
governments, residents of the affected areas, and the general public'' 
before a president creates a given monument.34 Further, 
national monuments are increasingly being placed under the jurisdiction 
of the BLM and USFS,35 creating tensions with the two 
agencies' multiple-use mandates. By unilaterally designating more than 
5 million acres as national monuments, President Biden thus expanded 
upon a lamentable presidential tradition of flagrantly abusing the 
Antiquities Act and ignoring the concerns of local communities and 
stakeholders.36
Restrictive RMPs
    BLM prepares RMPs to serve as land-use plans for specific units. As 
the BLM's ``blueprint'' for ``keeping landscapes healthy and 
productive,'' an RMP should offer a balanced management plan that 
accounts for multiple uses and the perspectives of interested 
stakeholders.37 Under the Biden administration, however, 
these plans were routinely transformed into top-down, preservationist 
schemes that flew in the face of local interests and concerns. The Rock 
Springs RMP, which covers approximately 3.6 million acres in 
southwestern Wyoming and was finalized in December 2024, is 
representative of this approach.38 When the Draft Rock 
Springs RMP was released in August 2023, many locals were dismayed to 
see its strict limitations on oil and gas development, grazing, and 
recreation.39 The opposition was so strong that Wyoming 
Governor Mark Gordon called on the BLM to withdraw the Draft RMP 
completely.40 Unfortunately, the finalized RMP ignored most 
of these concerns, and BLM Principal Deputy Director Nada Wolff Culver 
rejected Governor Gordon's recommendations outright.41 In 
response, state and local officials expressed disappointment that 
``years of collaborative work'' with the BLM had proved 
unavailing.42
    Similar dynamics unfolded in Colorado, Montana, North Dakota, Utah, 
and across the West. The BLM's RMPs for the Colorado River Valley Field 
Office (CRVFO) and Grand Junction Field Office (GJFO), finalized on 
October 16, 2024, restricted oil and gas leasing on nearly 1.1 million 
acres in Colorado despite facing significant opposition in Colorado and 
Congress.43 Relatedly, county officials in Utah accused BLM 
of failing to adequately coordinate with state and local partners 
during the planning of the Grand Staircase-Escalante National Monument 
(GESNM) RMP.44 According to these officials, the BLM missed 
critical deadlines, failed to produce a list of the ``objects'' that 
would be protected by the monument's new acreage, and misled the public 
about road closures that would occur under the agency's preferred 
alternative.45 By cutting off multiple use at the planning 
level, the Biden administration furthered a ``death by a thousand 
cuts'' approach to rural and western economies that depend on 
productive lands for food, fuel, and fiber.
The Misguided ``Old Growth'' Initiative
    In April 2022, President Biden issued E.O. 14072, directing USDA 
and DOI to define, identify, and inventory ``mature and old growth 
forests'' on public lands and develop policies to protect those 
forests.46 The interagency mature and old growth initiative 
began in July 2022 with a Federal Register Notice and public comment 
period, resulting in roughly 4,000 comments and more than 100,000 
signatures on various form letters from across the 
country.47 In April 2023, USFS published an ``initial 
draft'' seeking to define and inventory ``old-growth and mature 
forests'' and even convened a ``Definition Development 
Team.''48 Yet these efforts failed to create a coherent 
definition for ``old-growth'' or ``mature'' forests. This was a 
predictable shortcoming, as no standard definition exists for ``old-
growth forests'' and ``mature forests,'' and they are not terms 
recognized in the scientific practice of forestry. Despite this lack of 
clear definitions, the report identified 91 million acres of ``old-
growth and mature'' forested lands on National Forest System (NFS) 
lands, comprising 63 percent of all land managed by USFS.49
    The Biden administration ultimately admitted that ``these 
`definitions' are considered dynamic, not static, and thus are subject 
to refinement as new information is incorporated (working 
definitions).''50 Despite lacking a real definition, the 
administration released an introductory report in January that 
identified wildfire, insects, and diseases as the leading threats to 
mature and old-growth forests and even admitted that ``tree cutting'' 
is a minor threat.51 The report even acknowledges that 
active management generally ``improved or maintained'' old growth 
stands.52 Continuing this misguided and incomplete effort, 
USFS published a Notice of Intent to amend all 128 national forest land 
management plans to provide direction on managing, conserving, and 
stewarding old-growth forest conditions.53 On June 21, 2024, 
USFS released a draft Environmental Impact Statement that included 
burdensome regulations that would hinder forest management 
efforts.54
    There was significant opposition from various stakeholders who 
argued that the proposed National Old Growth Amendment was legally 
suspect and scientifically flawed. In response, USFS announced they 
were withdrawing the proposed amendment on January 7, 
2025.55 USFS Chief Randy Moore acknowledged this opposition, 
stating there ``was also feedback that there are important place-based 
differences that we will need to understand'' in order to properly 
steward forest resources on the ground.56 While this was a 
welcome decision, the fact remains that this ill-advised effort from 
the Biden administration unquestionably diverted time and energy away 
from addressing the overwhelming wildfire and forest health crisis that 
is the true threat to forest stands of every age class.
The Benefits of Restoring Multiple Use
    The American people need relief after suffering four years of 
disastrous natural resources policy under President Biden. A simple 
return to the letter and spirit of time-tested multiple-use mandates, 
as proposed by the Trump administration, will go a long way toward 
helping struggling communities surrounded by federal land. Some of the 
policy areas with the most urgent need for improvement are described 
below.
Right-sizing Federal Land Ownership to End America's Housing Shortage
    The harmful consequences of excessive federal land ownership are 
not confined to America's rural communities. Federal lands encircle 
many of the nation's fastest-growing urban centers, driving up housing 
costs and rental prices.57 This problem is especially 
pronounced in America's western states, where approximately half of the 
land is federally owned.58 Therefore, it is unsurprising 
that this region has generally suffered from housing price increases 
that have outpaced those experienced in other parts of the 
country.59 Additionally, these communities often face 
significant delays in approving needed transportation projects, water 
resource plans, and other local initiatives simply because they are 
surrounded by federal parcels under restrictive land-use 
designations.60
    Fortunately, workable solutions to America's housing crisis remain 
firmly within reach. In a 2022 study, Republicans on the U.S. 
Congressional Joint Economic Committee (JEC) found that ``[t]he federal 
government can alleviate a large share of the housing shortage in the 
West by disposing of a minuscule share of its vast 
landholdings.''61 Freeing up only 0.1 percent of the federal 
government's landholdings for residential development across the west 
could lead to the construction of 2.7 million new homes and empower 4.7 
million Americans to finally afford averagely priced homes in their 
states.62 In Utah, for example, allowing for more housing to 
be built on federal lands could address 35 percent of the current 
housing shortage.63 Utah Governor Spencer Cox recently 
identified the state's exorbitant housing prices as ``the single 
greatest threat'' to achieving future prosperity, which shows the 
importance of this issue. Even a small reduction in the federal estate 
could bring enormous benefits to American families.
Restoring Multiple-Use to Improve Forest Health and Strengthen Rural 
        Economies
    BLM and USFS are the two primary agencies tasked with forest 
management.64 USFS manages roughly 145 million acres of 
forests and woodlands across the NFS, while BLM manages 37.6 million 
acres of mostly public domain forests.65 Turning these 
agencies away from the preservationist approaches they have taken under 
the Biden administration and requiring them to fulfill their statutory 
multiple-use mandates would benefit both the economy and the 
environment by promoting active, responsible stewardship of federal 
forestland. Timber harvesting and grazing, for example, are traditional 
uses whose increased presence in federally managed forests is essential 
to managing the wildfire crisis and supporting rural economies.
    Timber harvesting can directly reduce wildfire risk. Vast tracts of 
federal forests are overloaded with hazardous accumulations of dry 
fuels that have resulted from a combination of fire suppression and a 
dangerous lack of thinning, prescribed burns, and mechanical 
treatments.66 Yet USFS missed its timber target in FY 2024 
by roughly 260 million board feet.67 Doubling down on this 
failure, USFS lowered its timber target from 3.4 to 3.2 billion board 
for the next two years.68

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    Reversing this troubling trajectory for timber targets would 
bolster USFS's wildfire risk reduction capabilities and revitalize 
threatened sawmill infrastructure. Since 2000, over 1,500 sawmills, 
approximately one-third of the total number of sawmills then in 
operation, shut down or severely curtailed their business 
activities.69 Boosting timber targets would help prevent 
future loss of this critically important infrastructure, which could be 
leveraged to help ramp up forest management activities and process 
hazardous fuels. The viability of this solution has been confirmed in 
practice. Following the devastating Caldor Fire in 2021, the Washoe 
Tribe of Nevada and California partnered with a private timber company 
and USFS to build a sawmill to process the salvage timber left behind 
by the wildfire.70 This partnership promised to improve 
forest health and provide an important source of revenue and jobs in 
that region.71 Moving forward, our land management agencies 
must reject the false premise that locking up land is sufficient to 
protect our forests. Instead, to restore health and resiliency to our 
forests, federal land managers must engage in active forest management, 
which includes responsible timber harvesting.
    Grazing is another traditional use whose increased application 
would significantly reduce wildfire risk and improve landscape health. 
Studies have repeatedly demonstrated that grazing is compatible with 
rangeland management and even vital to rangeland health. In 2024, for 
example, USDA released a study showing livestock grazing can limit both 
wildfire risk and invasive annual grasses.72 Responsible 
grazing can modify the range to make it more fire resilient, while the 
presence of livestock on federal land decreases fire probability and 
severity.73 Such benefits are among the reasons why USFS 
listed grazing as a key aspect of the agency's Wildfire Crisis 
Strategy.74 Grazing on public lands also delivers 
considerable cost savings to federal land management agencies while 
adding economic value to rural economies. Ranchers grazing livestock on 
public lands assist federal agencies by frequently clearing public 
trails, monitoring recreation trends, observing wildlife movements, and 
responding first to wildfires and other natural disasters.75
    As demonstrated through the examples of timber harvesting and 
grazing, a severe consequence of federal land managers locking up land 
is that states and localities lose out on revenue-generating 
activities. Economic research has found that a ``[w]ilderness 
designation is significantly associated with lower per capita income, 
lower total payroll, and lower total tax receipts in 
counties.''76 The study continued by noting that ``[t]he 
benefits and costs from [w]ilderness are unevenly distributed between 
local and non-local communities, with local communities incurring a 
larger burden of the costs.''77 This logic would readily 
apply to other restrictive land-use designations that contradict true 
multiple-use. Therefore, opening more federal land to traditional uses 
could serve as a promising way forward for many of the nation's most 
economically disadvantaged rural areas.
Republican Solutions to Restore Local Control and Productive Uses of 
        Public Lands
    House Republicans are determined to use the 119th Congress to 
advance commonsense and practicable solutions to increase Americans' 
access to their public lands and empower local stakeholders to have a 
greater role in land-use decisions. In completing this work, 
Republicans will return to many of the legislative solutions that were 
already developed in the 118th Congress to advance these policies to 
President Trump's desk. A selection of bills planned for consideration 
or already considered this Congress in the jurisdiction of the House 
Committee on Natural Resources include the following:

     H.R. 471 (Rep. Westerman), ``Fix Our Forests Act'': 
            Comprehensive, bipartisan legislation to restore forest 
            health, improve resiliency to catastrophic wildfires, and 
            protect communities by expediting environmental analyses 
            and deterring frivolous lawsuits.78

     H.R. 3397 (Rep. Curtis) (118th), ``Western Economic 
            Security Today (WEST) Act of 2024'': Withdraws the proposed 
            Public Lands Rule and prohibits the BLM from finalizing, 
            implementing, or enforcing any substantially similar 
            rule.79

     H.R. 5499 (Rep. Miller-Meeks) (118th), ``Congressional 
            Oversight of the Antiquities Act'': Amends the Antiquities 
            Act by requiring congressional approval for the designation 
            of national monuments. If Congress does not approve the 
            designation within six months, the monument cannot be 
            redesignated by the President for 25 years.80

     H.R. 6085 (Rep. Hageman) (118th), To prohibit the 
            implementation of the Draft Resource Management Plan and 
            Environmental Impact Statement for the Rock Springs RMP 
            Revision, Wyoming: Restricts the Secretary of the Interior 
            from finalizing, implementing, administering, or enforcing 
            the RMP and Environmental Impact Statement for the Rock 
            Springs RMP Revision, Wyoming.81

     H.R. 6547 (Rep. Boebert) (118th), ``Colorado Energy 
            Prosperity Act'': Restricts the Secretary of the Interior 
            from finalizing, implementing, administering, or enforcing 
            the Draft RMP or Draft Supplemental Environmental Impact 
            Statement for the CRVFO and GJFO RMPs.82

     H.R. 7006 (Rep. Curtis) (118th), To prohibit natural asset 
            companies from entering into any agreement with respect to 
            land in the State of Utah or natural assets on or in such 
            land: Restricts a NAC from entering into any agreement 
            regarding land or natural assets in Utah.83
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  OVERSIGHT HEARING ON RESTORING MULTIPLE USE TO REVITALIZE AMERICA'S
                   PUBLIC LANDS AND RURAL COMMUNITIES

                              ----------                              


                       Tuesday, February 11, 2025

                     U.S. House of Representatives

                     Subcommittee on Federal Lands

                     Committee on Natural Resources

                            Washington, D.C.

                              ----------                              

    The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:07 p.m. in 
Room 1324, Longworth House Office Building, Hon. Tom Tiffany 
[Chairman of the Subcommittee] presiding.
    Present: Representatives Tiffany, McClintock, Fulcher, 
Stauber, Amodei, Maloy, Kennedy, Westerman; Neguse, Stansbury, 
Dexter, Randall, and Huffman.
    Also present: Representative Hageman.

    Mr. Tiffany. The Subcommittee on Federal Lands will come to 
order.
    Without objection, the Chair is authorized to declare a 
recess of the Subcommittee at any time.
    The Subcommittee is meeting today to hear testimony on 
restoring multiple use to revitalize America's public lands and 
rural communities.
    I ask unanimous consent that the following Members be 
allowed to participate in today's hearing from the dais: the 
gentlelady from Wyoming, Ms. Hageman; and the gentleman from 
Colorado, Mr. Crank.
    Without objection, so ordered.
    Under Committee Rule 4(f), any oral opening statements at 
hearings are limited to the Chairman and the Ranking Minority 
Member. I therefore ask unanimous consent that all other 
Members' opening statements be made part of the hearing record 
if they are submitted in accordance with Committee Rule 3(o).
    Without objection, so ordered.
    I will now recognize myself for an opening statement.

STATEMENT OF THE HON. TOM TIFFANY, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS 
                  FROM THE STATE OF WISCONSIN

    Mr. Tiffany. I want to welcome everybody to the first 
official Subcommittee on Federal Lands hearing of the 119th 
Congress.
    Last Congress the Subcommittee continued its bipartisan 
tradition by sending more than 15 separate pieces of 
legislation to the President's desk. In fact, if Federal Lands 
were counted as a full Committee, it would have tied for the 
fourth most productive Committee in the House last Congress. 
This is also based on a conservative estimate, since we are not 
counting the numerous other bills signed into law through 
comprehensive packages like the EXPLORE Act.
    As we begin our important work in this new Congress, this 
Subcommittee will work with the Trump administration and the 
new Republican Senate majority to restore multiple use to our 
public lands, empower local communities, and revitalize rural 
economies.
    And there is much work to be done. President Biden left 
America's public lands and natural resources in a sorry state. 
For four long years President Biden and his Federal land 
managers abandoned the long-standing and previously 
uncontroversial principle of multiple use. Instead they adopted 
top-down preservationist schemes designed to placate extreme 
environmentalists. Along the way, Biden's officials never 
seemed to notice or care that their reckless policies were 
inflicting enormous damage on America's rural economy, housing 
affordability, energy dominance, and national security.
    While virtually no American was spared by President Biden's 
irresponsible natural resource policies, the harm was felt most 
acutely out West. Growing urban centers like Salt Lake City and 
Las Vegas suffer from exorbitant housing and rental prices 
largely because they are encircled by Federal land. Rural 
communities are facing economic devastation as generations-old 
grazing and logging businesses have had to shut down due to 
ruinous regulations. And on top of all that, the Democrats' 
profligate spending brought us the highest inflation in 40 
years, which disproportionately hurt rural residents.
    The startling scope and arrogance of these policies were 
laid bare by the Biden administration's 30x30 agenda. Under 
this initiative Federal land managers sought to lock up at 
least 30 percent of the Nation's land and waters by 2030. 
Seldom remarked was the fact that the Federal Government 
already owns 640 million acres, or roughly 28 percent of the 
Nation's land mass, including nearly 50 percent of the land out 
West. The 30x30 initiative, then, was simply a misleading 
attempt to justify further land grabs. Thirty by thirty was 
consistently cited when the Biden administration designated new 
national monuments or announced ill-advised mineral 
withdrawals.
    Under glaring abuses of the Antiquities Act the former 
President sealed off nearly six million acres in California, 
Nevada, Arizona, Utah, and Colorado. Adding insult to injury, 
the Federal land managers who planned and implemented these 
national monuments often displayed a sneering disregard for 
local opinion. Again and again, local officials and residents 
reported that their questions and concerns had been deflected 
or ignored.
    This was also true of the BLM's Public Lands Rule, which 
overturned the long-standing statutory precedent of multiple 
use and sustained yield. The rule empowers environmental groups 
and foreign entities to purchase so-called conservation leases, 
and thereby lock up millions of acres of public lands intended 
for multiple use. Despite repeated requests to hold more in-
person listening sessions from s across this dais in Western 
States, the Biden administration refused to do so and pushed 
this rule forward over the objections of governors, local 
officials, ranchers, recreationalists, and countless others.
    Similar issues plagued the resource management plans issued 
by Biden's bureaucrats in Colorado, Utah, Montana, North 
Dakota, and Wyoming. The BLM used resource management plans to 
prohibit energy production, limit economic activity, and block 
traditional access. And yet again, Federal land managers simply 
dismissed local outrage.
    These examples lead to an inescapable conclusion: When 
bureaucrats in Washington turn their backs on multiple use, 
they also turn their backs on the American people. Thankfully, 
a unified Republican government means that relief is now at 
hand. Instead of ignoring local voices, we are putting Western 
communities back in the driver's seat to shape the land and 
resource policies that affect their lives.
    Further, Committee Republicans will ensure that Federal 
land managers understand that, under our watch, coordination 
will always require attentive, good faith, and meaningful 
engagement with local communities. The days of ignoring and 
downplaying stakeholders' concerns are over.
    I could go on forever about these issues, but fortunately 
we have some high-caliber witnesses in front of us who are 
eager to share their expertise. So in closing I would like to 
thank all of them for traveling here today. Please know that 
your insights are highly valued by each member of this 
Subcommittee.
    With that I yield and recognize the Ranking Member of the 
Full Committee, Mr. Huffman.

   STATEMENT OF THE HON. JARED HUFFMAN, A REPRESENTATIVE IN 
             CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA

    Mr. Huffman. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Pinch hitting for our 
Subcommittee Ranker for now. I appreciate it.
    This Subcommittee will host some very important 
conversations in the coming months, conversations and debates 
over policy that will have profound impacts on the future of 
our public lands. And it is clear from the onslaught of attacks 
emanating from the White House that the heart and soul of 
America's public lands is at stake here.
    Between Project 2025 and its extreme targeting of public 
lands, and now the aggressive rollout of the Project 2025 
agenda through executive orders, a hiring freeze, funding 
freeze, there is no question that Federal land management 
agencies, along with many other Federal agencies, are under 
siege. This reckless and illegal action is delaying the 
delivery of critical funds to State, local, and tribal partners 
right now. It is paralyzing the implementation of wildfire 
mitigation projects, projects that keep communities safe. It is 
pausing or outright canceling the hiring process for critical 
personnel with vital functions like public safety, resource 
protection, and others.
    Shockingly, constituents in my district who are hard at 
work implementing post-fire disaster recovery and wildfire 
mitigation projects have been forced to pause these efforts 
without any idea how long this pause will even remain in 
effect. They could lose an entire season because of the 
administration's actions. There is nothing ``woke'' about 
reducing wildfire risk and helping communities rebuild. These 
efforts are essential for public safety, regardless of 
politics. So this is beyond perplexing.
    On top of that, countless Federal employees have no idea if 
they still even have a job because these tech bros, along with 
Elon Musk, these unelected, unaccountable private-sector 
actors, are rifling through all of their computer systems and 
private information, in some cases suggesting mass layoffs. And 
doing that with non-partisan civil servants is incredibly 
shortsighted. This ego-driven vendetta is going to have grave 
consequences. And those who support it or those who simply 
stand by while it happens will own those consequences.
    The tech bros at DOGE have no idea how much Americans love 
their public lands. Visitation is skyrocketing, outdoor 
recreation is booming. And thanks to the hard work and 
dedication of the Biden administration, conservation is on the 
rise. Democrats are proud of the progress we achieved in the 
last 4 years. But unfortunately, the country is about to 
experience a massive sense of whiplash. Newly confirmed 
Interior Secretary Burgum has wasted no time in rolling out the 
Project 2025 playbook. His secretarial orders set the stage for 
rolling back practically every beneficial public lands policy 
from the past 4 years, exactly as called for in Project 2025.
    Rolling back initiatives like the Public Lands Rule, 
stripping protections for places like the Boundary Waters, 
peeling back national monuments to hand over our public lands 
to polluting billionaire barons is a betrayal of the American 
people and the lands we all love. This plan, again, is right 
out of Project 2025, and Donald Trump swore up and down that it 
was not his plan. Many of you here denied it, as well. But here 
we are with an administration that is following it to the 
letter.
    My Republican colleagues insist that they support policies 
that reflect their commitment and the input of rural 
communities. Well, let me tell you, there are going to be a lot 
of incensed rural stakeholders when the President carries 
through with his plans to roll back all of these protections.
    We have an obligation and a responsibility to manage our 
public lands in a balanced way that keeps future generations in 
mind and puts conservation on equal footing with other demands 
and uses. To put it in context of this hearing today, balance 
is a key component of multiple use.
    My district is full of rural communities, and I can assure 
you that the local input that Republicans repeatedly cite isn't 
just a blanket request for more development and extraction and 
pollution. Local input includes requests from Tribes seeking to 
protect sacred sites and cultural resources from destruction by 
foreign mining conglomerates, or local communities hoping to 
preserve the unspoiled landscapes around them. That is why 
Democrats work with their communities to develop legislative 
solutions for public lands in their districts.
    Democrats also represent rural communities surrounded by 
public land, just like many of you. All you have to do is to 
look at the members of this Subcommittee and the districts they 
represent. Unfortunately, our efforts are often blocked in 
Congress by our colleagues across the aisle.
    But first and foremost, we need to put an end to the 
uncertainty and the chaos that is going on right now because of 
President Trump's Federal funding freeze. I really hope my 
colleagues across the aisle will start engaging on that, paying 
attention to the damage that is rolling out to all of our 
districts. If we really want to help rural communities, that is 
a good place to start.
    Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.

    Mr. Tiffany. Thank you for the opening statement, Mr. 
Huffman, and we are going to move on to witness testimony here.
    Let me remind the witnesses that under Committee Rules, you 
must limit your oral statement to 5 minutes, but your entire 
statement will appear in the hearing record.
    To begin your testimony press the ``on'' button.
    On the microphone, we use timing lights. When you begin, 
the light will turn green. At the end of 5 minutes, the light 
will turn red, and I will ask you to please complete your 
statement.
    First, I would like to introduce the Honorable Eric Clarke, 
the County Attorney of Washington County, Utah.
    Mr. Clarke, you are recognized for 5 minutes.

STATEMENT OF THE HON. ERIC CLARKE, COUNTY ATTORNEY, WASHINGTON 
                 COUNTY, UTAH, ST. GEORGE, UTAH

    Mr. Clarke. Thank you, Chairman Tiffany, Ranking Member 
Neguse, and members of the Subcommittee for giving me the 
opportunity to address you today.
    My ancestors settled the area of Bryce Canyon National Park 
and the Grand Staircase-Escalante National Monument. I was in 
high school in 1996 when the 1.7 million-acre monument was 
created and my town became surrounded by public lands that were 
no longer managed for multiple use.
    Professionally, I have worked in the Washington County 
Attorney's Office in southwest Utah for 14 years, and have 
served as the elected county attorney since 2020. I regularly 
work on public land issues involving federally protected land, 
plants, and animals, land exchanges with the BLM, highway and 
water development projects, resource and travel management 
plans, and visitor crowding in Zion National Park. For better 
or worse, I am an expert when it comes to the often 
dysfunctional public land bureaucracy.
    My family has lived in southern Utah for six generations. 
My Grandpa Clarke worked in the Escalante sawmill, which relied 
on timber harvested from Forest Service land. He also ran 
cattle on BLM-managed lands that are now part of the Grand 
Staircase National Monument. His livelihood relied on positive 
and functional partnerships with Federal land management 
agencies, and he lived a long, happy life. Unfortunately, the 
sawmill is now closed because the Forest Service could not 
provide consistent timber permits. Running cattle becomes more 
and more difficult due to constantly changing Federal land 
management and restrictions. I have six siblings, but only one 
lives in our home county. There are simply not enough high-
paying jobs to keep people in the area.
    I live in nearby Washington County, which, in contrast to 
my home county, is thriving economically. Our population center 
is 90 miles from Las Vegas on Interstate 15, and we are the 
gateway to Zion National Park, which had over 5 million 
visitors last year. We have experienced rapid population growth 
for decades, growing from 10,000 residents 65 years ago to more 
than 200,000 today.
    Like other population centers in the Southwest, conserving 
water and improving our water infrastructure are of paramount 
importance to us. An egregious example of a broken bureaucratic 
system is the BLM administrative land exchange process. We must 
improve our water reuse capacity, and the first step in our 
comprehensive water reuse plan was to complete a non-
controversial land exchange where the county would acquire a 
reuse reservoir site and BLM would receive designated critical 
habitat that would increase the size of the Red Cliffs National 
Conservation Area. The BLM estimated it could complete the 
simple exchange in 18 months, but it has been 8 years and the 
exchange is still in process. We cannot meet our water needs if 
every step in the Federal process takes a decade to complete.
    We also have to build new arterial roads to meet our growth 
demands. Congress approved a Northern Corridor for our 
community in the 2009 Omnibus Public Land Management Act. In 
that same bill, and with our county's support, Congress 
designated 250,000 acres of wilderness, 110,000 acres of 
National Conservation Area lands and 165 miles of Wild and 
Scenic River. In 2021 the BLM approved a four-and-a-half-mile 
Northern Corridor. Simultaneously, we protected thousands of 
acres of Mojave Desert tortoise habitat. But 2 months ago the 
BLM revoked that right-of-way, removed the protections on the 
habitat, and flaunted the clear direction from Congress to 
delineate a buildable road corridor by 2012.
    I have worked on this project for 10 years, and it is 
beyond frustrating to have our good-faith growth and 
conservation efforts disregarded. Communities surrounded by 
Federal lands need reliable and responsive Federal partners. 
For communities to thrive we need consistent multiple-use 
management. Congressional action on permitting reform, 
including judicial review, will be helpful.
    Maximizing public uses on Federal lands also depends on 
congressional oversight of how Federal land management 
agencies' handbooks and internal policies are utilized to 
thwart or delay multiple uses on those lands. We need 
consistency in land management decisions. We need those 
decisions to be completed in a timely, cost-effective manner. 
And we need the BLM to follow its multiple-use mandate, work 
with us to preserve our cherished public lands, encourage 
responsible access, and provide for economic growth.
    My great-great-great-grandparents helped settle southern 
Utah. I hope that my generation is not the last in my family to 
have the opportunity to live in our amazing area.
    Thank you for holding this important hearing today.

    [The prepared statement of Mr. Clarke follows:]
           Prepared Statement of Eric Clarke, County Attorney
                        Washington County, Utah

Introduction
    Thank you, Chairman Tiffany, Ranking Member Neguse, and members of 
the subcommittee for giving me the opportunity to discuss the impacts 
of federal land management when the management ignores the desires of 
and impacts to communities adjacent to federally managed lands.
    My ancestors settled the area near Bryce Canyon National Park and 
the Grand Staircase-Escalante National Monument. I was in high school 
in 1996 when President Clinton proclaimed that the federally managed 
land adjacent to my community was part of the original 1.7-million-acre 
Grand Staircase-Escalante National Monument designation. 
Professionally, I have worked in the Washington County Attorney's 
office in southwest Utah for 14 years and have served as the elected 
County Attorney since 2020. Our county contains most of Zion National 
Park, 15 congressionally designated wilderness areas, and two 
congressionally-designated national conservation areas. I regularly 
work on public land issues involving (1) the 14 federally protected 
plants and animals in our county; (2) land exchanges with the Bureau of 
Land Management (BLM); (3) highway and water development projects; (4) 
resource and travel management plans; and (5) visitor crowding in Zion 
National Park. For better or for worse, I am an expert when it comes to 
the often-dysfunctional public land bureaucracy.
    The Federal Land Policy and Management Act of 1976 is a 
congressional act that mandates BLM to manage public land resources for 
a variety of uses including livestock grazing, recreation, timber 
harvesting, energy development while balancing the protection of 
sensitive lands and species and cultural resources. ``Multiple use'' is 
not an esoteric concept. It is an actionable and proven approach to 
land management. Multiple use encourages actors to co-exist rather than 
exclude one another. The movement away from multiple-use management of 
public lands and toward benefiting only one use directly harms local 
communities. Figure 1, a map of the state of Utah, shows how few BLM 
lands (in yellow) are eligible for multiple use whereas most BLM lands 
in Utah are encumbered with special designations.

[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

    I share with this committee direct examples of how multiple use 
can advance the needs of all stakeholders. Yet, the way federal 
agencies have chosen to implement federal land and environmental 
policies enacted by Congress is riddled with red-tape, layers of 
review, and processes that have become an impediment that delays and 
diminishes the use of federal lands for the public benefit. This is why 
facilitating multiple uses also enhances the conservation values 
integral to land management.
I. Federal Mismanagement Harmed my Hometown
    After World War II, my grandpa married my grandma, and they bought 
a small farm in a small community in rural southern Utah where they had 
both been raised. They raised their six children in that same small 
community. My grandpa worked full time in the timber industry, 
sharpening saws in a sawmill in the small town of Escalante. The 
sawmill where he worked relied on timber harvested from U.S. Forest 
Service (USFS) managed land. He also ran cattle on BLM-managed lands 
that are now part of the Grand Staircase-Escalante National Monument. 
My grandparents' livelihood relied on positive and functional 
partnerships with federal land management agencies, and they lived 
long, happy lives.
    Unfortunately, after my grandpa retired, the sawmill where he'd 
spent his career closed. While its owners tried several times to get it 
up and running again, each time it failed because of legal challenges 
to timber harvesting permits or bureaucratic red tape. A sawmill cannot 
operate without a steady supply of timber, and all the timber was in a 
federally managed forest where it was tied up by bureaucratic red tape.
    Grazing has fared better than logging, but it is still negatively 
impacted by federal decisions and management plan updates that place 
further restrictions on monument uses. Much, if not most, of the Grand 
Staircase-Escalante National Monument was actively grazed at the time 
of its creation. While the number of cattle allowed was not immediately 
reduced when the National Monument was created, road closures and other 
restrictions have made it difficult for owners who rely on historic 
federal grazing permits to maintain cattle. On top of this, only a 
small portion of land in the area is private property, so any cattle in 
the area must graze on federal land. I spoke with a concerned county 
commissioner two weeks ago who says that grazing is being choked out of 
existence due to federal mismanagement and restrictions.
    No one who visits this area will find evidence of destructive 
logging or over-grazing. The hard-working people who worked in those 
industries saw BLM and USFS employees as their partners, partners whom 
they worked alongside to keep the land healthy because healthy lands 
were necessary for the local communities' economic survival. The 
industries suffered not because the local communities were abusing the 
land, but due to broken bureaucratic processes and never-ending legal 
challenges from non-governmental entities.
    My paternal grandparents had six children, and I am the oldest of 
my father's seven children. Yet I have only one sister and no paternal 
cousins living in the community where I grew up. The high school in 
Escalante is now only a fraction of the size it was at the time of my 
graduation in 1999. As the local saying goes--the area's largest export 
is its children. While the state of Utah was the fastest growing state 
in the nation for the fifteen-year period of 2008-2023, averaging a 21% 
growth rate, counties in rural Utah made up of mostly federally managed 
land cannot grow. The Grand Staircase-Escalante National Monument is in 
Garfield and Kane Counties. The population of Garfield County was 5,172 
in 2010 and is now 5,314, representing only a 1.6% increase over 10 
years. \1\ Kane County has experienced similar trends with an average 
growth trend of 1% between 2010-2023. \2\ As demonstrated by my 
experience, people move away because it is no longer economically 
feasible for them to remain. For most people born in these communities, 
the only employment options include working for a governmental agency 
or working in the tourism industry (neither option is known to lead to 
economic prosperity because the hospitality jobs are often seasonal and 
low paying).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \1\ Population Data Garfield County: https://www.census.gov/
quickfacts/fact/table/garfield countyutah/PST045224
    \2\ Population Data Kane County: https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/
fact/table/kanecountyutah/AFN120222
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Federal lands should be managed in a way that allows the lands and 
species to thrive and that promotes long-term economic prosperity for 
the people invested in the survival of the lands. Instead, land 
management is choking local economies out of existence.
II. Washington County is Vested in Protecting the Local Environment
    After finishing law school and a federal judicial clerkship, I 
moved to Washington County, Utah. I am currently the elected County 
Attorney. Washington County is a public lands county, with the federal 
government managing over 75% of the land in our county. Of our 1.5 
million acres, the BLM manages 41% of those, the USFS manages 25%, and 
the National Parks Service manages 9%. Our county's uniquely beautiful 
landscape is a result of the junction of the Colorado Plateau, the 
Mojave Desert, and the Great Basin landforms. Our awe-inspiring vistas, 
warm climate, and welcoming community make Washington County an ideal 
place to live and visit.
    Washington County continues to experience rapid population growth. 
In 1960, we had a population of 10,000. Today it is over 207,000. \3\ 
To put that into perspective, our population has at least doubled every 
20 years since 1960. With tourism playing such an essential role in our 
economy, it is unsurprising that estimates place the number of visitors 
our County receives at between eight and ten million annually. Last 
year, Zion National Park was the fourth-most-visited national park in 
the United States, attracting five million visitors. \4\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \3\ Population Data Washington County, Utah: https://
worldpopulationreview.com/us-counties/utah/washington-county
    \4\ Zion National Park Visitation: https://www.nps.gov/zion/learn/
management/park-visitation-statistics.htm
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    In addition to being an attractive place for people to live and 
visit, our unique landscape is also home to 15 federally protected 
plant and animal species. For decades, Washington County has 
successfully implemented the Washington County Habitat Conservation 
Plan, proving that vibrant communities can participate in successful 
conservation efforts resulting in thriving lands and species when 
community members have a seat at the table and when they are allowed to 
work in partnership with Federal agencies. Our community leaders work 
diligently to ensure our population growth and tourism industry, along 
with their associated outdoor recreation, occur in ways that preserve 
our local environment. Our open space and beautiful views are an 
essential part of the Washington County experience, and our community 
leaders are invested in preserving them.
III. Broken Bureaucratic Processes are Impeding Our Water 
        Infrastructure Planning
    Washington County exists in an extremely dry desert climate. We 
have a single, small drainage basin that provides all the water to our 
area. The region relies on water storage from above-average 
precipitation years to meet our needs in below-average years. We have 
proactively planned and developed water systems and storage throughout 
the time our community has existed. However, the burdensome bureaucracy 
that has harmed my hometown is also harming my current community. For 
example, a very small reservoir currently under construction in 
Washington County required 20 years of a costly bureaucratic tug-of-war 
to win a permit and begin construction.
    An egregious example of a broken bureaucratic system is our county 
water district's efforts to navigate the BLM's administrative land 
exchange processes. For background, our county developed a 
comprehensive water reuse plan that will allow us to meet our 
population growth by reusing water--a system that would solve many of 
the problems currently faced by many drought-ridden areas in the 
Western United States. This water reuse system is a common-sense 
solution that nearby desert communities like Las Vegas, Nevada have 
used to great effect. Washington County's regional reuse system will 
include new treatment facilities, conveyance infrastructure, and water 
storage facilities that will optimize reuse water. Most of the system 
intersects with federal lands. Due to local leaders' familiarity with 
the bureaucratic challenges presented by the federal environmental 
review processes, they hoped to speed up the process by using a 
comprehensive environmental impact statement (EIS) for the entire reuse 
project rather than one project component at a time.
    The linchpin of this reuse plan requires the development of a large 
reuse storage reservoir. In accordance with our preservation-minded 
attitude, we worked to put this site on lands of minimal biological and 
historical value. Thus, the Washington County Water Conservancy 
District proposed purchasing valuable and tortoise-occupied Mohave 
desert tortoise habitat from a private person. Those private lands 
reside inside the boundary of the Red Cliffs National Conservation 
Area. This purchase would allow those lands to be immediately 
incorporated into that NCA when it goes under BLM management. In 
exchange, the District worked within the BLM Resource Management Plan 
to identify other lands the District could utilize that are less 
biologically and economically valuable to enhance water storage 
capability. Notably, the privately held tortoise land inside the NCA 
had long been flagged as a priority for BLM acquisition and the 
reservoir site is listed as a planned reservoir site in the current BLM 
resource management plan for the area.
    This exchange checks every box. It fits the existing BLM planning 
documents, helps the environment in multiple ways, and directly 
benefits the local community. When we began working on it, the BLM 
estimated that it could be completed in 18 months. But eight years have 
now passed, and the exchange is still not complete. The County has not 
run into any unforeseen issues like discovery of a new species or a 
previously unknown antiquity site. The BLM process is simply broken and 
cannot be completed in a timely manner.
    The years-long delay has cost our water district millions of 
dollars because construction costs have increased dramatically. These 
costs necessarily come out of the pockets of our citizens and 
taxpayers. If the administrative land exchange had been completed in 
two years, the comprehensive environmental impact statement for the 
regional reuse project would be finished by now. A significant amount 
of our water reuse system would be under construction. Frustratingly, 
everything has been delayed because a timely completion of the land 
exchange has failed.
IV. 2008 Washington County Growth and Conservation Act
    We have worked diligently to preserve open space in our area. 
Twenty years ago, Utah's then-Governor Olene Walker encouraged local 
leaders to work with Congress, conservation groups, and others to 
protect significant swaths of open space in our county while ensuring 
those protections would not impede future water development, utility 
access, or road construction. Those efforts resulted in the Washington 
County Growth and Conservation Act, which was passed as part of the 
2009 Omnibus Public Lands Management Act (Public Law 111-11).
    On the ``conservation'' side of the Washington County Growth and 
Conservation Act, the Act designated 16 wilderness areas, totaling 
nearly 250,000 acres. It designated 165 miles of the Virgin River and 
its tributaries in our county as a Wild and Scenic River. The Act also 
established two national conservation areas protecting, to a lesser 
degree than wilderness, an additional 110,000 acres. This NCA acreage 
was expected to grow significantly when the BLM fulfilled its 
commitment to acquire the lands privately held and the school trust 
lands inside the Red Cliffs National Conservation Area (Red Cliffs NCA) 
boundary. The Act even designated uses for the funds that would come as 
the BLM sold lands that had been listed for disposal year earlier; 
these funds were to go toward acquiring the NCA inholdings. Thus, the 
``conservation'' side of the Washington County Growth and Conservation 
Act was significant.
    On the ``growth'' side of the Washington County Growth and 
Conservation Act, local and state land-use planners were assured that 
the creation of the Red Cliffs National Conservation Area would not 
unduly hinder running utilities or accessing water within the NCA as 
necessary for future population growth. This assurance was important 
because the NCA's southern and eastern boundary was adjacent to 
existing or planned developments, and its western boundary abuts the 
Shivwits Band of Paiutes Reservation. All parties understood that, to 
some degree, the NCA land would always have to be utilized for the 
movement of water, utilities, and traffic.
    Bringing together both the ``conservation'' and ``growth'' sides of 
the Act, the Act also gave the BLM three years to develop a 
comprehensive travel management plan that would ensure appropriate 
access to all of the BLM-managed land in the county, placing an 
emphasis on continuing recreational use of the remaining multiple use 
areas. The contents of the final plan for BLM-managed lands was to 
include one or more options for the construction of what is known 
locally as the ``Northern Corridor.'' As you can see in the map 
prepared for this testimony, the Red Cliffs NCA boundary dips south 
near the historic downtown of St. George City (See Exhibit A). Traffic 
planners have identified the need for a northern bypass road since the 
mid-1980s, which is why it was clearly and unequivocally included in 
the Act. Forty years later, we are still waiting, and the bypass road 
is needed now more than ever.
V. BLM's Failure to Follow the 2009 Omnibus Public Lands Management Act
    Inexplicably, the BLM has fully implemented all the conservation 
measures of the Act while largely ignoring the growth measures. Here 
are a few examples:

     A. Utility and Water Access. This House Committee held a 
            field hearing in St. George City in 2016 to address utility 
            and water access in the Red Cliffs NCA. The draft Resource 
            Management Plan (RMP) for the Red Cliffs NCA 
            inappropriately restricted utility and water access, not 
            adhering to the agreement reached in the Washington County 
            Growth and Conservation Act. Pressure from the committee, 
            combined with excellent work of then-Deputy Washington 
            County Attorney Celeste Maloy, resulted in most of these 
            concerns being resolved before the finalization of the RMP.
     B. Travel Management. Around 2014, the local BLM field 
            office began working with Washington County on the 
            congressionally required travel management plan as passed 
            in PL 111-11. For six months, County and BLM planners 
            identified dispersed campsites, overlooks, and other 
            destinations throughout the county. The draft plan was well 
            written, and the County was largely supportive of the BLM's 
            preferred alternative. However, the plan was never released 
            for public comment, nor was it adopted. It has continued to 
            gather dust on a shelf in the local BLM office for 10 
            years.
     C. Northern Corridor. The BLM's most egregious action has 
            been its open opposition to the Northern Corridor, a road 
            project expressly enabled by the Congress in the Washington 
            County Growth and Management Act (PL 111-11). This open 
            opposition was demonstrated in the BLM's denial of an 
            initial application for the roadway--a decision that was 
            overturned by the Department of Interior Board of Land 
            Appeals. This open opposition was also demonstrated by the 
            BLM's refusal to include a transportation corridor that 
            would meet our area's clear traffic needs in the 2016 Red 
            Cliffs NCA Resource Management Plan.
VI. Granting a Right-of-Way
    Washington County is one of the fastest growing counties in the 
state of Utah and it is projected to continue growing, doubling its 
population by 2050. \5\ As much as we focus on smart and innovate ways 
to provide water, housing, and energy for our residents and our 
millions of visitors each year, our community is equally concerned with 
transportation and traffic congestion and the consequences to these 
issues for our local neighborhoods and our air quality.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \5\ Kim C Gardner Total Population Projections by County: https://
tableau.dashboard.utah.edu/t/Business/views/20220111_Detailed_Proj_Vis/
ProjectionsWorkbook?%3Adisplay_count=n&%3 
Aembed=y&%3AisGuestRedirectFromVizportal=y&%3Aorigin=viz_share_link&%3As
howApp Banner=false&%3AshowVizHome=n
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    In 2017, our County gathered numerous federal, state, and local 
stakeholders to directly address the Northern Corridor issue, given the 
BLM's lack of action on the travel management plan and our need to 
address regional transportation issues. Washington County teamed up 
with the BLM, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service (USFWS), the State of 
Utah, Utah's school trust lands administrators (SITLA), local 
transportation planners, and cities.
    While our position remains that no additional biological mitigation 
should be necessary because the roadway was part of the bargain struck 
in the 2009 Act, we also acknowledge legitimate concerns about the 
road's impacts on the Red Cliff's Desert Reserve. The Reserve is the 
key component of the county's habitat conservation plan and its Mojave 
desert tortoise incidental take permit. In the process of addressing 
the Northern Corridor issue, the County and other stakeholders saw an 
opportunity to protect as open space the heavily recreated area shown 
as Zone 6 in the attached map--an opportunity that we embraced, further 
illustrating local leaders' commitment to preserving the beautiful and 
biologically important local environment (See Exhibit A).
    From 2017 to 2021, the BLM and the USFWS jointly completed an 
environmental impact statement (EIS) that analyzed the following:

     (1) an application from Utah for the Northern Corridor 
            Right-of-Way;
     (2) a 25-year renewal of the County's desert tortoise 
            incidental take permit.

    The incidental take permit renewal process included amending 
Washington County's Mohave Desert Tortoise Habitat Conservation Plan so 
that the plan addressed commitments from the County, the BLM, Utah's 
school trust lands administration (SITLA), and other parties impacted 
if the Northern Corridor were approved. The most important biological 
aspect of those commitments was the County's offer to expand The Red 
Cliffs Desert Reserve to include Zone 6 in return for the BLM's grant 
of a right-of-way to the state of Utah for the Northern Corridor. In 
2020 and 2021, the USFWS approved the amended habitat conservation plan 
and renewed the county's incidental take permit. The BLM granted Utah a 
right-of-way for the Northern Corridor, which then triggered the part 
of the amended plan that established Zone 6.
    Zone 6 contained 6,813 acres, half of which was already BLM-managed 
land. One-third of Zone 6 was part of the Red Bluff Area of Critical 
Environmental Concern, an area already managed for conservation of the 
protected dwarf bear-poppy plant but not yet managed for conservation 
of the Mojave desert tortoise. Nearly half of Zone 6 is privately owned 
by Utah School Trust Lands Administration (formerly SITLA). The 
remaining acres were owned by private property owners or local 
governments. The area has a large and healthy desert tortoise 
population. It is also heavily recreated.
    Popular trails include Bearclaw Poppy and Zen, using for mountain 
biking and hiking. Rock climbing areas include the Green Valley Gap and 
Moe's Valley. To put in perspective how popular the area is, trail 
counters show that over 100,000 mountain bike rides occur annually on 
the Bearclaw Poppy Trail alone.
    To ensure that all impacts to the desert tortoise from the 
construction of the Northern Corridor would be fully offset, the County 
and its partners proposed the following:

     (1) set aside all 6,813 acres in Zone 6 to be managed for 
            the benefit of the tortoise,
     (2) do away with the prior development authorization of 
            3,341 acres of non-federally managed lands, and
     (3) strategically place tortoise culverts under Cottonwood 
            Road in the portion of the Red Cliffs NCA near the Northern 
            Corridor.

    This would result in the County protecting 12 acres of tortoise 
habitat for every one acre of habitat disturbed for road development. 
In terms of the tortoise population, eight tortoises would be protected 
due to the preservation of lands for every one tortoise disturbed due 
to road development (although new information indicates that the ratio 
would be closer to 10:1). (See 2020 Amended and Reinstated Washington 
County Habitat Conservation Plan Appendix G). \6\ No reasonable 
refutation can be made that the proposed benefits to the described 
tortoise recovery efforts far outweigh the harms caused by the 
construction and ongoing use of the four and half mile-long Northern 
Corridor.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \6\ Appendix G, Determining Fully Offset for the Northern Corridor 
of the 2020 Amended and Restated Washington County Habitat Conservation 
plan. https://eplanning.blm.gov/public_projects/1502103/200341977/
20029421/250035622/Amended%20Washington%20County %20HCP%20-%20Final.pdf
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    We were understandably shocked in 2022 when the BLM and non-
governmental organizations agreed in an out-of-court settlement to do 
two things: (1) immediately revoke the Biological Opinion from USFWS 
supporting the 2020 Northern Corridor Record of Decision and (2) 
complete a supplemental environmental impact statement allowing for the 
revocation of the right-of-way. The BLM completed that final revocation 
in December 2024; the USFWS simultaneously eliminated Zone 6.
    These actions made the 3,300 acres of occupied tortoise habitat, 
which are still privately-owned as school trust lands, immediately 
developable. Before this decision, I would never have imagined the 
USFWS would choose to allow for the destruction of high quality and 
occupied habitat, an action that will translate into the destruction of 
12 acres of habitat for every one acre that gained protection. 
Washington County filed a lawsuit last summer challenging the illegal 
revocation of the Northern Corridor Biological Opinion. We are 
currently working with the State of Utah as we explore our options for 
most effectively challenging the revocation of the state's BLM-issued 
right-of-way.
VII. Breaching Trust
    In addition to the inexplicable path taken by the Biden Department 
of Interior, the agency also burned bridges built by decades of the 
federal agencies and community partners working together in good faith. 
After the Northern Corridor Right-of-Way was issued in January 2021, 
our county was obligated to fulfill many commitments triggered by the 
road's approval.
    We have spent over $6 million! We have closed areas to OHV use by 
constructing fencing and signage and by imposing a regular law 
enforcement presence. We have already purchased enough acres of land to 
offset the loss of tortoise habitat acres from the road at a 3:1 ratio. 
We have purchased grazing permits to be retired. We have built a public 
outreach center where we educate the public about our area's sensitive 
animals and plants daily. We have implemented tortoise-conscious 
development restrictions for utilities crossing Zone 6. We have 
significantly cleaned up and reduced the amount of trash dumping that 
had been occurring in the area for decades. We have fulfilled our part 
of the bargain.
    Neither the BLM nor the Fish and Wildlife Service ever indicated 
that we should hold off on these activities or that our obligations 
were being put on hold while they engaged in secret backroom 
negotiations with outside groups for years. They held us to our 
commitments while possessing a full knowledge that they were going to 
renege on theirs.
    How can we partner with these agencies now? We spent years working 
to find a solution that satisfied every possible requirement of the 
Endangered Species Act and the 2009 Omnibus Public Lands Management 
Act. The County and the state spent millions of taxpayer dollars on 
studies, plans, and an environmental impact statement. We then spent 
millions more fulfilling our time-sensitive obligations under the new 
agreement. The federal agencies knowingly extorted money from us and 
then took away the right-of-way that we had negotiated, and that 
Congress had approved in 2009. The Biden Department of the Interior 
actions have left us with no viable option for meeting our area's 
transportation needs. We hope that, with a change in Administration, 
the agencies may renew their commitments to us in a way that will allow 
us to keep the full benefit of our work and resources. However, the 
broken bureaucratic process has proven nearly impossible to complete 
during a single Administration.
Conclusion
    For Communities to thrive, we need consistent, multiple use 
management. I worry that the negative impact of these federal decisions 
will grow with my children as they grow to adulthood. Employment 
opportunities in the towns near southern Utah's national monuments are 
severely limited. Housing prices will increase dramatically if failure 
to build roads and water infrastructure prevents Washington County from 
keeping up with housing demand. I had no viable option for staying in 
my hometown and so I moved from a town of 500 to a community that has 
grown to 200,000. I worry that the dysfunctionality of federal land 
management will force not only my children, but children coming of age 
across Southern Utah, to move away from the area.
    As much as this depends on Congressional action in implementing 
changes that will lead to permitting reform, it also depends on 
Congressional oversight of how the BLM and other federal agency 
handbooks and internal policies are utilized and implemented, as they 
are now utilized and implemented to thwart multiple uses of federal 
lands. Unfortunately, my personal and professional life have been 
significantly and negatively impacted by poor federal land management 
policies and implementation of policies that have failed to respond to 
the needs of my community.
    Communities surrounded by federal lands need responsive federal 
partners. We need consistency in land management decisions. We need 
those decisions to be completed in a timely, cost-effective manner. And 
we need those decisions to seriously consider our local economies and 
cultures. My great-great-great grandparents helped settle Southern 
Utah. I hope that my generation is not the last in my family to have 
the opportunity to live in our amazing area.
    Thank you for holding this important hearing today.

   [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]   
                                 __
                                 

    Mr. Tiffany. Yes, thank you, Mr. Clarke. I will now 
recognize Mr. Tim Canterbury, President of the Public Lands 
Council.
    Mr. Canterbury, you have 5 minutes.

 STATEMENT OF TIM CANTERBURY, PRESIDENT, PUBLIC LANDS COUNCIL, 
                        HOWARD, COLORADO

    Mr. Canterbury. Thank you, Chairman Tiffany, Ranking Member 
Neguse, and members of the Subcommittee for the opportunity to 
provide testimony today. My name is Tim Canterbury, and I serve 
as President of the Public Lands Council. Since 1968 PLC has 
been the only organization in Washington, D.C. dedicated to 
representing the unique perspectives of cattle and sheep 
producers who hold the 22,000 Federal grazing permits across 
the West. Between the Forest Service and the BLM, approximately 
250 million acres have grazing as an authorized use in any 
given year.
    For five generations, my family has raised cattle in 
Colorado. Aside from my private land, I have held BLM and 
Forest Service grazing permits since the 1980s, and manage the 
lands, waters, wildlife, and multiple uses they sustain. Like 
other grazing permittees, I am responsible for maintaining 
fences, water troughs, pipelines, culverts, and other 
infrastructure on my allotment that benefits my livestock and 
other users of these lands.
    These other users are plentiful. Colorado is home to some 
of the country's most popular hiking and climbing areas. Two of 
the most used trails to access these fourteeners run through my 
allotments. In the height of summer we have measured more than 
1,000 people per day who go through my grazing allotment on 
these trails. I have adjusted my grazing rotations and embraced 
emerging technologies to reduce the potential for conflict 
between recreationalists and my livestock like gates left open, 
damage to water tanks, and soil disturbance from heavy foot 
traffic. This is all part of normal multiple use management for 
ranchers like me.
    Western economies depend on successful multiple use, and 
grazing is a tool that makes true multiple use possible. 
Grazing reduces wildfire risk by more than 40 percent. Without 
grazing, hikers, bikers, hunters, and climbers would all lose 
out to damage from catastrophic wildfire or other land loss.
    Public lands are crucial to the domestic agriculture supply 
chain, too. Approximately 63 percent of the Western cattle 
herd, and more than 50 percent of the national sheep herd spend 
time grazing on public lands. These livestock operations 
directly support trucking companies, feed mills, fencing 
companies, water management systems, veterinarians, and more. 
Loss of these lands would cripple regional and national 
livestock production.
    Research from the University of Wyoming shows that if 
grazing were removed from just 3 States, Idaho, Oregon and 
Wyoming, you would see a 60 percent decrease in cattle sales in 
those States, and over 40,000 jobs eliminated in a 10-year 
period. Apply that formula to all Western States, and the 
impact of grazing management is clear the challenges in our 
operations are plentiful. Besides economic drivers and an 
unpredictable Mother Nature, there are activist groups who work 
to exploit rules and lawsuits to eliminate public lands 
grazing. We survive because the facts about our good management 
and the law are on our side.
    But sometimes the law places huge regulatory burdens on me 
and my family. We bear the burdens of implementing the ESA, 
NEPA, Antiquities Act, and more. The biggest challenge is when 
our Federal regulations work against us rather than with us. 
Over the last several years we saw an administration that 
doubled down on harmful rules, including the BLM Public Lands 
Rule. More land designations and a reduced focus on active 
management are not the solution.
    I offer the following suggestions for Congress to help 
ensure decisions are made on the ground, rather than in an 
office in Washington.
    No. 1, direct agencies to increase the use of targeted 
grazing to reduce wildfire risk. We thank Representative 
LaMalfa and this Committee for leadership on this issue.
    Two, direct specific resources to ensure agencies can do 
NEPA and permitting in a timely way. This will decrease the 
risk of litigation and improve efficiency.
    Three, reform statutes like the ESA and the Antiquities Act 
that have repeatedly been abused to the detriment of the 
landscape. More land designations are not the solution.
    And finally, set expectations that all kinds of energy 
development avoid or minimize impacts to livestock grazing. 
Everyone should have to play by the same rules so that no one 
use is more important than another.
    Chairman, Ranking Member, and members of the Subcommittee, 
I appreciate the opportunity to provide testimony on the role 
grazing plays in making multiple use possible. We are happy to 
answer any questions.

    [The prepared statement of Mr. Canterbury follows:]
  Prepared Statement of Tim Canterbury, Public Lands Council President

    Chairman Tiffany, Ranking Member Neguse, and Members of the 
Subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to provide testimony on the 
importance of multiple use of our nation's public lands. My name is Tim 
Canterbury and I serve as President of the Public Lands Council (PLC). 
Since 1968, PLC has been the only organization in Washington, D.C. 
dedicated solely to representing the unique perspectives of cattle and 
sheep producers who hold the 22,000 federal grazing permits.
    My family has raised cattle in Howard, Colorado for five 
generations. My grandchildren are the seventh generation to live and 
work in this way of life. During the course of the year, my cattle 
spend time on my private land as well as on federal land grazing 
allotments. I have held grazing permits since the 1980s and have 
managed them as an integral part of my operation. I manage these lands 
and waters, and the wildlife and multiple uses they sustain, as if they 
were my own. For me, there is no difference in my level of investment 
between the lands I own and the federal lands grazing allotments for 
which I hold the permits.
    Like me, there are thousands of grazing permittees in the West 
whose careful stewardship of these landscapes has protected hundreds of 
millions of acres across the 14 western states where grazing happens on 
federal lands. Between the U.S. Forest Service (USFS) and the Bureau of 
Land Management (BLM), approximately 250 million acres \1\ have grazing 
as an authorized use in any given year. In addition to the annual 
grazing fee I pay the agency, I am responsible for maintenance of 
fences, water troughs, pipelines, culverts, and other infrastructure 
that benefits not only my livestock, but all other users of those 
acres. Because of these additional investments, the cost for me to 
graze public lands is the same as the cost for me to graze my own lands 
or lease a private pasture. My family and I have also made additional 
investments in technology, like virtual fence, to add an extra layer of 
management precision on my allotments. When you factor in this 
additional outlay, it is actually much more expensive for me to graze 
on federal lands.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \1\ USFS classifies approximately 93 million acres as eligible to 
be used for grazing; BLM has the potential to authorize grazing on 155 
million acres. This figure represents the total number of acres that 
may be grazed in a given year, however the number of acres grazed is 
often much lower as a result of allotments that are vacant or closed, 
often due to litigation and inadequate resources to complete NEPA 
analyses. USFS: https://www.fs.usda.gov/es/speeches/meeting-challenges-
together BLM: https://www.blm.gov/programs/natural-resources/
rangelands-and-grazing/livestock-
grazing#::text=The%20BLM%20manages%20livestock%20grazing,issue%20 
to%20public%20land%20ranchers.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Value of Grazing
    Colorado is home to some of the country's most popular hiking and 
climbing areas. Two of the most-used trails to access these 
``fourteeners'' run through my allotment. In the height of summer, we 
have measured more than 1,000 people per day who go through my grazing 
allotment on these trails. I have adjusted my grazing rotations to 
reduce the potential for conflict between recreationalists and my 
livestock and have made other changes to reduce the impact of gates 
left open, damage to my water tanks, and soil disturbance from tires, 
tracks, and heavy foot-traffic. When you're a federal lands grazing 
permittee, these challenges are a normal part of your daily management.
    Despite the inherent complexities, public lands ranchers embrace 
multiple use as a core part of their operations. While grazing is 
undoubtedly a use of federal lands as an important part of the national 
beef, lamb, and wool industries, grazing also provides host of co-
benefits as a land management tool. Grazing protects wildlife habitat, 
reduces the risk of catastrophic wildfire, and supports local 
economies. Cattle grazing on federal lands provides $8.575 billion \2\ 
in ecosystem services each year, ranging from wildlife-based 
recreation, forage production, and other economic measures of 
biodiversity and land use.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \2\ Maher, Anna T, et al. ``An Economic Valuation of Federal and 
Private Grazing Land Ecosystem Services Supported by Beef Cattle 
Ranching in the United States.'' Translational Animal Science, U.S. 
National Library of Medicine, 4 May 2021, pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/
articles/PMC8290490/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The economic benefits of federal lands grazing cannot be 
overstated. Approximately 63 percent of the Western cattle herd and 
more than 50 percent of the national sheep herd spend some time on 
public lands. These livestock operations directly support trucking 
companies, feed mills, fencing companies, water management systems, 
veterinarians, and other important rural infrastructure. If access to 
federal grazing were lost or significantly abridged, the impacts could 
be catastrophic. Research from the University of Wyoming \3\ suggests 
that if grazing were removed from just three states--Idaho, Oregon, and 
Wyoming--the direct and secondary impacts would be catastrophic for the 
surrounding areas. For these three states, loss of access to federal 
lands grazing would:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \3\  University of Wyoming Extension. ``Economic Impacts of 
Removing Federal Grazing Used by Cattle Ranches in a Three-State Area 
(Idaho, Oregon, and Wyoming)''. August 2022.

     Decrease cattle sales by 60 percent (in those three 
            states).
     Eliminate more than 40,000 jobs over a 10-year period. 
            This increases to 163,507 over a 40-year period.
     Cause a 65 percent reduction in ranch labor related to 
            cattle production.

    This work also suggests that while the immediate impact from loss 
of grazing would be devastating, the secondary economic impacts to the 
surrounding unities would be three times greater by dollar value.
    Permittees manage their livestock to find the highest degree of 
efficiency for both the productivity of their livestock and the health 
of the landscape. Many permittees, like my family, have been managing 
these same lands for decades and provide the kind of continuity of 
management that protects landscapes from the worst kind of damage. This 
committee has seen the horrors wrought on the land and on livestock 
from the increase in catastrophic wildfires over the last decade. While 
there are many factors that contribute to wildfire risk, grazing is a 
proven, effective tool to reduce harm. Grazing reduces the risk of 
wildfire ignition between 45 and 50 percent. \4\ When fires do ignite, 
grazing is a key tool to reduce fire severity by removing the fine 
fuels that make fires hotter, faster, taller, and more dangerous for 
firefighters.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \4\ Starrs, G., Siegel, K., Larson, S., & Butsic, V. (2024). 
Quantifying large-scale impacts of cattle grazing on annual burn 
probability in Napa and Sonoma Counties, California. Ecology and 
Society, 29(3). https://doi.org/10.5751/es15080-290310
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Grazing is also key for reducing invasive species; much of the 
discussion around fire risk and challenges to western biodiversity have 
centered around invasive annual grasses, like cheatgrass.
    It is well known that ``even small amounts of cheatgrass in an 
ecosystem can increase fire risk''. \5\ For years, critics of federal 
lands grazing have inaccurately blamed the spread of cheatgrass on 
grazing when in fact, targeted grazing both removes the grass from the 
landscape and prevents seeds from spreading. Once the seeds pass 
through the cow's digestive tract, the seeds are unable to germinate. 
\6\ In short: grazing reduces cheatgrass, and therefore reduces 
wildfire risk.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \5\ Bradley, B. A., Curtis, C. A., Fusco, E. J., Abatzoglou, J. T., 
Balch, J. K., Dadashi, S., & Tuanmu, M. (2017b). Cheatgrass (Bromus 
tectorum) distribution in the intermountain Western United States and 
its relationship to fire frequency, seasonality, and ignitions. 
Biological Invasions, 20(6), 1493-1506. https://doi.org/10.1007/s10530-
017-1641-8
    \6\ Holton, G., Franco, A.M., Richardson, W., Stringham, T., 
Fonseca, M. (2024). Evaluating the effects of ruminal incubation and 
abomasal enzymatic digestion on the germination potential of Bromus 
tectorum. Rangelands, 46(4), 132-136. https://doi.org/10.1016/
j.rala.2024.05.001
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Regulatory Challenges to Multiple Use
    Over the last four years, there have been a number of policy 
changes that have eroded the careful balance of multiple use 
management, and have threatened grazing's place on the landscape. In 
the BLM, policy changes like the ill-conceived ``Public Lands rule'' 
upended the agency's longstanding expectation of balancing multiple 
uses in a productive way and put an unfair--and illegal--thumb on the 
scale so that some uses would have greater legal and practical priority 
than others. As implemented, the rule creates new layers of 
bureaucracy, making it harder for ranchers to renew permits, expand, 
and maintain economic viability. The rule also places an outsized focus 
on the use of restrictive Areas of Critical Environmental Concern 
(ACEC) designations that give the BLM the ability to expedite more 
restrictive land management, promotes increased conflict on the 
landscape, and increases the BLM's difficulty in delivering on the 
agency mission. The repercussions of implementing this rule would 
adversely impact the national economy.
    Other challenges cut across many policy areas; the Biden 
Administration's changes to the National Environmental Policy Act 
(NEPA) and approach to land use planning picked winners and losers 
among multiple uses. Using the updated NEPA authorities, federal 
agencies elevated internal goals, like solar and wind energy, allotting 
staff time and funding to projects they deemed ``priority'' while other 
uses were deprioritized, delayed, and devalued. Delays ranged from 
simple requests, like approval of range improvement construction and 
maintenance, to larger projects like timely post--fire remediation 
that, when stalled, exacerbate the impact of the fire. Across the 
board, implementation of the grazing program suffered as the agency 
focused on ``higher priority'' issues.
    USFS also faces challenges. Updates to the USFS grazing handbook 
and directives have been languishing before agency leadership for 
nearly 10 years, and many forests are so severely understaffed that 
implementation of the grazing program and range management are far 
removed from the district level. This committee needs to look no 
further than a comparison of the agency's budget across the programs; 
for example, the agency has repeatedly failed to request the full 
allotment of Range Betterment Fund dollars that are crucial to 
cooperative monitoring and range improvement projects with permittees, 
but continues to tell this Committee and stakeholders that they are 
unable to carry out programmatic work because they lack funds and 
staff.
    Over time, land management has become more restrictive, not less. 
There are fewer cattle and sheep on the landscape now than 30 years 
ago, and millions more acres are in restrictive land designations. 
National monument designations, wilderness areas, and ACECs have 
restricted grazing in historically managed areas leading to overgrown 
vegetation and increased wildfire risk. Federal overreach in land 
designations bypasses local stakeholders, ignoring the needs of rural 
communities. Each time the pendulum of power shifts in our democracy 
our nation's public lands ranchers are left bracing for potential 
designations that could hurt their economic viability and render the 
land without the proper management necessary.
    Generally, regulatory burdens are the cause of the greatest 
uncertainty for ranchers. Ranchers must navigate extensive federal 
permitting processes to graze on public lands, facing delays and 
inconsistencies. Delayed permit renewals and uncertain staffing 
allocations discourage investment in land improvements like water 
infrastructure and rotational grazing systems, and overlapping 
regulations from agencies like the BLM, USFS, and Fish & Wildlife 
Service create inefficiencies and added costs.
Opportunities for Congressional Action
    Congress has a great deal of opportunity to improve multiple use 
management for grazing and all other multiple-use management. While the 
list is not exhaustive, I offer the following suggestions for immediate 
action:

     Direct agencies to increase the use of targeted grazing to 
            reduce wildfire risk. We appreciate the committee's recent 
            action on Fix Our Forests Act, and urge widespread 
            congressional support. This committee must make clear to 
            USFS and BLM that targeted grazing to reduce fuels must not 
            occur only within the bounds of grazing allotments; grazing 
            is already reducing fuels in those allotments. The real 
            need is outside allotments, where fuels are untreated and 
            pose a risk to all uses around them.

     Direct targeted resources to environmental analysis and 
            permitting for rangeland monitoring and grazing allotments. 
            Both USFS and BLM have long lists of outstanding NEPA 
            analyses that should be updated to facilitate the improved 
            management. Congress should direct the agencies to stand up 
            targeted teams to work through these lists expeditiously.
     Reform statutes that has repeatedly been abused to the 
            detriment of the landscape. PLC has a long history of 
            supporting modernizations of the Endangered Species Act, 
            Migratory Bird Treaty Act implementation, National 
            Environmental Policy Act, and the Equal Access to Justice 
            Act. Congress must provide clear direction to the agencies 
            about future use to prevent further misuse.
     Conform expectations for traditional and alternative 
            sources to avoid or minimize impacts to livestock grazing. 
            Livestock producers have become increasingly concerned that 
            alternative energy sources, like solar, will have 
            irreversible impacts to livestock grazing since 
            installations on federal land require conversion of 
            multiple-use land to a single use. This committee should 
            establish a clear expectation that any new installation 
            should avoid existing grazing allotments.

    Chairman, Ranking Member, and members of the Subcommittee, I 
appreciate the opportunity to provide a review of the last several 
years and offer suggestions about how to build a stronger future for 
our public lands. The long-held multiple-use doctrine ensures that 
federal lands remain productive and accessible to all. Ranching 
provides ecological and economic benefits that ensure those lands are 
not just accessible, but healthy, resilient, and attractive to all 
other uses.
    My family has managed the lands we utilize since 1879. Our 
commitment to these lands is baked into our way of life. The knowledge 
that is handed down from generation to generation offers deep 
historical and ecological knowledge of the working landscape. Congress 
and federal agencies must recognize public lands ranching as an 
essential part of the multiple-use framework and ensure these lands are 
able to be both important parts of our country's history, and of our 
future. Together, I'm hopeful we'll ensure grazing is still an 
instrumental part of the west in another 150 years.
    Thank you for the opportunity to testify.

                                 ______
                                 

 Questions Submitted for the Record to Mr. Tim Canterbury, President, 
                          Public Lands Council

            Questions Submitted by Representative Westerman

    Question 1. During his questioning, Ranking Member Neguse suggested 
that you might believe that the Bureau of Land Management (BLM) 
requires additional funding and employees to support adequate grazing 
and other traditional uses on our public lands.

    1a) Is that, in fact, your position?

    1b) Or were you instead suggesting that the BLM's allocation of 
existing resources could be improved, as you seemed to clarify when 
questioned later by Chairman Tiffany? If so, please elaborate.

    Answer. I was not suggesting Congress provide additional funding. 
The Bureau of Land Management (BLM) has a broad responsibility to work 
with grazing permittees, users from a wide variety of multiple use 
groups, and other interests in their mission to manage public lands. In 
my experience, I believe that BLM should target existing resources--to 
include funding, personnel, partnerships, and other attentions--to the 
greatest effect. BLM has the tools they need to undertake environmental 
reviews, process grazing permits, and do necessary monitoring 
activities, but sometimes these resources are focused in other areas. I 
suggest that BLM increase their internal attention to some of these 
core function because their attention can be leveraged by grazing 
permittees and all of us who are on the land on a daily basis.

    Question 2. In response to Chairman Tiffany's question about 
whether additional BLM funding was necessary, you stated the following: 
``[W]hen I used to walk into the agency office there would be three 
people in the office that managed the entirety of the resources and the 
lands that are being managed today with three to four hundred people.''

    2a) Do you think this increase in administrative headcount is an 
effective way to protect multiple uses of BLM lands? Why or why not?

    Answer. More people increases the administrative headcount, but not 
necessarily their capacity or efficiency. There are key positions in 
the BLM that work closest with the permittee to get work done: 
rangeland conservationists, local line officers, and state staff are 
all integral in the day-to-day communications and approval of key 
projects on the ground. I believe the agency should prioritize ensuring 
these positions are filled; we need the right people in the right 
places, not more people across the board. We have seen what happens 
when BLM focuses on having more people across the agency--these 
individuals' tasks become duplicative and rather than becoming more 
efficient, the agency gets less efficient over time.

    2b) Does conservation generally result from BLM administrators or 
from the grazing permittees, ranchers, and livestock owners, who work 
on, and care for, America's public lands?

    Answer. Grazing permittees are the ones doing the conservation work 
on the ground, but on federal lands, our work has to be approved and 
monitored by the federal agency that issues our permit. We are on the 
front line of watching for invasive species, fire risk, which 
pedestrian trails are unsafe, where fences are down, and all of the 
many considerations that go into successful multiple use. It's a system 
that has to work so that grazing permittees can do the important work 
on the ground.

    Question 3. Would you please distinguish between targeted grazing 
as an allotment management practice and targeted grazing for fuels 
reduction?

    3a) Have federal land managers demonstrated a proper understanding 
of how both types of targeted grazing should be applied? Please 
explain.

    Answer. Over the last several years, public lands grazers have been 
frustrated by the relative lack of application of targeted grazing. 
Both BLM and the U.S. Forest Service have tried to apply targeted 
grazing, but they have historically limited application to areas within 
the boundaries of current grazing allotments. When talking about 
grazing for wildfire risk reduction, this defeats the purpose: active 
grazing allotments already are at a reduced risk for wildfire ignition 
and lower severity because of existing grazing, and we need to apply 
targeted grazing outside of allotments, in high risk zones, in vacant/
closed allotments, and other areas that need additional fire mitigation 
tools.
    We are starting to see some application of targeted grazing in 
these other areas, but there's a lot of room for improvement. Over the 
last several years, we've seen BLM back away from several 
authorizations to use targeted grazing to create fuel breaks, so this 
is one thing I'd like to see improved.

    3b) If not, how might Congress help provide direction to the 
agencies?

    Answer. Congress should provide clear direction to both agencies 
that targeted grazing for wildfire risk reduction should include all 
federal land in need of fuels reduction, not just existing grazing 
allotments. If the agencies are serious about reducing fine fuels at 
scale and at low risk, then targeted grazing should become a visible, 
widely used tool. It shouldn't be relegated to a ``pilot program'' 
status, nor should it be a tool of last resort when all other tools 
aren't suitable.

                                 ______
                                 

    Mr. Tiffany. Thank you, Mr. Canterbury. I now recognize Mr. 
Dan Gibbs, Executive Director of the Colorado Department of 
Natural Resources.
    Mr. Gibbs, welcome. You have 5 minutes.

STATEMENT OF DAN GIBBS, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, COLORADO DEPARTMENT 
             OF NATURAL RESOURCES, DENVER, COLORADO

    Mr. Gibbs. Thank you, Mr. Tiffany. Thank you, Chairman 
Tiffany, Ranking Member Neguse, and esteemed members of the 
Subcommittee. I am really excited to be here today.
    As the Executive Director of the Colorado Department of 
Natural Resources, I am proud to share the incredible work we 
do to meet our mission to develop, preserve, and enhance 
Colorado's natural resources. I have led the Colorado DNR since 
2019, but my love for natural resources began while living in 
Gunnison County, Colorado with the Gunnison River right in my 
backyard and public lands right there, as well.
    My parents were both public school educators, and their 
experience as teachers influenced me to pursue a career in 
public service. Over my career I have worked for Congressman 
Mark Udall, was a State representative, State senator, and a 
county commissioner. I have also fought fires throughout the 
West as a certified wildland firefighter. I live in Summit 
County, which is a community comprised of over 80 percent 
Federal lands.
    We cherish our public lands in Colorado. They provide a 
vital public good that improves the mental health and physical 
well-being of our residents and visitors, while also generating 
tremendous economic opportunities. Colorado is an all-above 
energy State where we work hard to balance the energy 
transition with the need for reliable energy. For instance, we 
are the fourth-largest oil and gas-producing State with vast 
natural gas reserves, coal, hardrock minerals, geothermal 
sources, and seemingly endless sunshine and consistent winds 
that assist our efforts to increase renewable energy 
generation.
    In addition to enabling resource extraction, our public 
lands support our growing outdoor recreation economy. We are 
privileged to live in a State that contains 22 million acres of 
public lands. Colorado's expansive prairies, mountain river 
valleys, desert canyons are essential to our lifestyle, 
heritage, and identity.
    Colorado's outdoor recreation industry contributes $36.5 
billion in GDP and represents 12 percent of our State's entire 
labor force. To manage this we have developed a robust 
partnership between local, State, Federal, and tribal entities 
through our Colorado Outdoor Strategy and Regional Partnership 
initiatives. Through this proactive approach our dedicated 
staff work closely with our Federal partners to responsibly 
manage and enhance outdoor recreation.
    In Colorado we proudly work hand in hand with our Federal 
partners, as evidenced in our successful co-management of the 
Arkansas Headwaters Recreation Area since 1989. The BLM and the 
U.S. Forest Service own much of the area along 152 miles of the 
Arkansas River, and Colorado Parks and Wildlife collects a user 
fee to help manage the boat launch, campgrounds, and river 
rescue, among other activities. The co-management effort has 
been so successful that we are now exploring replicating this 
in other areas around the State, in particular the Pikes Peak 
region in Colorado Springs.
    As a wildland firefighter and resident of a fire-prone 
community, I have seen firsthand the risk that megafires pose. 
Because wildfires don't know the difference between Federal, 
State, and private and tribal lands, we need a management 
strategy that reflects an all-hands approach. We are very proud 
of our shared stewardship agreement with the U.S. Forest 
Service, and we hope to soon finalize a similar agreement with 
the BLM. The shared stewardship agreement that was initiated 
under the first Trump administration provided the structure to 
combine funding towards doing the right work at the right place 
and the right scale based on collaborative input.
    Colorado and much of the arid West is one lightning strike, 
one unattended campfire away from the next devastating 
megafire. By prioritizing planning and working together, we can 
take advantage of shared Federal/State resources to create the 
economies of scale needed to treat the acres to protect lives, 
property, and critical infrastructure. Shared stewardship 
should not be limited solely based on forest management, but 
instead should apply this important tool broadly to 
collaboratively manage trails, water, wildlife, and much more.
    As a former county commissioner, I know our rural 
communities and understand the challenges they face. We must 
manage and fund our lands in a way that allows for these 
communities to reap the benefits. In Colorado our extensive 
network of stakeholder networking collaborative groups works 
hard to get projects off the ground. The funding that Colorado 
receives from the Federal Government is imperative to 
accomplish projects that cover everything from flood mitigation 
to dam and mine safety, typically in rural communities. Recent 
efforts to freeze Federal funds are creating significant 
uncertainty and concern among our constituents, and are already 
negatively impacting these types of projects.
    Federal funding is the bedrock of these programs. I 
encourage you to continue to partner with States. Together we 
can leverage our natural resource funding to obtain 
extraordinary, efficient, and cost-effective lifesaving 
outcomes.
    And with that, Mr. Chairman, I am happy to answer any 
questions. Thank you.

    [The prepared statement of Mr. Gibbs follows:]
Prepared Statement of Dan Gibbs, Director of the Colorado Department of 
                           Natural Resources

Introduction
    Thank you, Chairman Tiffany, Ranking Member Neguse, and esteemed 
members of the Subcommittee. I'm excited to be here today.
Overview
    As the Executive Director of the Colorado Department of Natural 
Resources, I'm proud to share the incredible work we do to meet our 
mission to develop, preserve, and enhance Colorado's natural resources. 
I've led Colorado's DNR since 2019, but my love for natural resources 
began while living in Gunnison County Colorado with the Gunnison River 
and public lands in my backyard. My parents were both public school 
educators and their experience as teachers influenced me to pursue a 
career in public service. Over my career, I have worked for Congressman 
Mark Udall, was a Colorado state representative and senator, and a 
county commissioner. I have also fought fires throughout the west as a 
certified wildland firefighter. I live in Summit County, which is a 
community comprised of over 80% federal lands.
    We cherish public lands in Colorado. They provide a vital public 
good that improves the mental health and physical well-being of our 
residents and visitors while also generating tremendous economic 
opportunities. Colorado is an all of the above energy state, and we 
work hard to balance the energy transition with the need for reliable 
energy. For instance, Colorado is the fourth-largest oil-producing 
state; with vast natural gas reserves, coal, hard rock minerals, 
geothermal sources, and seemingly limitless sunshine and consistent 
winds that assist our efforts to increase renewable energy generation.
Outdoor Recreation Economy
    In addition to enabling resource extraction, our public lands 
support a growing outdoor recreation economy. We are privileged to live 
in a state that contains 22 million acres of public lands. Colorado's 
expansive prairies, mountain river valleys, and desert canyons are 
central to our lifestyle, heritage, and identity.
    Colorado's outdoor recreation industry contributes $36.5 billion in 
GDP and represents 12% of the state's entire labor force. To manage 
this, we have developed robust partnerships between local, state, 
federal, and tribal entities through Colorado's Outdoor Strategy and 
the Regional Partnerships Initiative. Through this proactive approach, 
Colorado's dedicated staff works closely with federal partners to 
responsibly manage and enhance outdoor recreation.
    In Colorado, we proudly work hand in hand with our federal 
partners, as evidenced by our successful co-management of the Arkansas 
Headwaters Recreation Area since 1989. The BLM and US Forest Service 
own much of the area along 152 miles of the Arkansas River, and 
Colorado Parks and Wildlife collects user fees to help pay for the 
management of boat launches, campgrounds, and river rescue. This co-
management effort has been so successful that we are exploring 
replicating that model in the Pikes Peak Region in Colorado Springs.
Shared Stewardship
    As a wildland firefighter and resident of a fire-prone community, I 
have seen first-hand the risk that megafires pose. Because wildfires 
don't distinguish between federal, state, private and tribal lands, we 
need a management strategy that reflects an all-lands approach.
    We are very proud of our Shared Stewardship agreement with the 
USFS, and we hope to soon finalize a similar agreement with the BLM. 
The Shared Stewardship agreements that were initiated under the first 
Trump Administration provide the structure to combine funding toward 
doing the right work, in the right place, at the right scale based on 
collaborative input to manage our forests.
    Colorado and much of the arid west is just one lighting strike or 
one unattended campfire away from the next devastating megafire. By 
prioritizing, planning, and working together, we can take advantage of 
shared federal-state resources to create the economies of scale needed 
to treat the right acres to protect lives, property, and critical 
infrastructure.
    Shared Stewardship should not be limited solely to forest 
management. Instead, we should apply this important tool broadly to 
collaboratively manage trails, water resources, wildlife, and much 
more.
    Rural Communities, Public Lands, and the Role of the Federal 
Government As a former Summit County Commissioner, I know our rural 
communities and understand the challenges they face. We must manage and 
fund public lands in a way that allows for these communities to also 
reap the benefits. In Colorado, our extensive network of stakeholder 
working groups collaborate to get boots on the ground to complete 
critical conservation projects in an efficient and cost-effective 
manner.
    The funding that Colorado receives from the Federal Government is 
imperative to accomplish projects that cover everything from flood 
mitigation to dam and mine safety typically in rural communities. 
Recent efforts to freeze federal funds are creating significant 
uncertainty, and concern among our constituents and are already 
negatively impacting these types of projects. Federal funding is the 
bedrock of these programs, and I encourage you to continue to partner 
with states. Together, we can leverage our natural resource funds to 
obtain extraordinarily efficient, cost effective, and lifesaving 
outcomes.
Conclusion
    Thank you for giving me the opportunity to speak about Colorado's 
collaborative approach to managing our natural resources. In the West, 
we are truly blessed with a diverse array of natural resources and so 
we must be faithful stewards of the land so that all future generations 
have the same access and opportunities. The only way we can accomplish 
these goals is by working together to find the balance between resource 
extraction and conservation.
                                 ______
                                 
    Mr. Tiffany. Thank you, Mr. Gibbs. I now recognize Mr. Jim 
Neiman, President and CEO of Neiman Enterprises.
    Welcome, Mr. Neiman, and you have 5 minutes for your 
testimony.

STATEMENT OF JIM NEIMAN, PRESIDENT AND CEO, NEIMAN ENTERPRISES, 
                        HULETT, WYOMING

    Mr. Neiman. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And Congresswoman 
Hageman apparently had to leave, but I also want to thank the 
rest of the Committee.
    My name is Jim Neiman, President of Neiman Enterprises, a 
multi-generational sawmill business operating in South Dakota, 
Wyoming, Colorado, and Oregon. I appreciate the opportunity and 
feel very blessed to be here today to testify.
    For 89 years our family business has been built on 
perseverance, adaptability, and a deep commitment to forestry 
and our communities. My grandfather founded our first mill in 
1936 in the Black Hills. Our work is about more than timber. It 
is about sustaining forests and communities. A critical 
partnership exists between the Forest Service and the forest 
products companies: the Forest Service relies on industry to 
manage 193 million acres of Federal lands, while we rely on the 
agency for a stable supply of raw material. When this 
partnership functions well, it creates stability for business 
and enables the Forest Service to implement much-needed 
treatments on the landscape. However, for this partnership to 
succeed, all parties must be fully committed.
    In the Black Hills, where my company has deep roots, the 
Forest Service has a long history of sustainable timber 
management, dating back to the very first Federal timber sale 
in 1899. Proper forest management has proven to control insect 
infestation, reduce wildfire risk, and ensure a sustainable 
supply of timber. However, we are now experiencing a 75 percent 
reduction, I repeat, 75 percent reduction, in the timber sale 
program in the Black Hills.
    This year the Forest Service has proposed a timber sale 
program that meets only a fraction of what one of our mills in 
Spearfish needs to stay operating, let alone the needs of the 
broader forest industry in the area. Unfortunately, we are 
seeing a decline in forest management not only in the Black 
Hills, but across multiple forests through the Forest Service 
regions.
    The consequences are real and permanent. In 1921, despite 
record-high lumber prices, we were forced to close the mill in 
South Dakota due to inadequate Forest Service timber sales. 
Today our two remaining sawmills in the Black Hills are running 
at 50 percent capacity and incurring tremendous financial 
losses, while other companies are being forced to truck 
material across three States to fill their needs and fill the 
gap.
    The need to do more in our forests is not new, and is 
supported by both parties. Yet in the last 4 years timber 
output has dropped 17 percent nationwide, and multiple sawmills 
which have heavily relied on Federal lands have now shut down. 
The loss of sawmills means more than economic hardship; it 
devastates communities. Two of our four operations, Wyoming and 
Oregon, reside in very small communities where our family 
business is the economic backbone. Without it, both could 
become another ghost town losing its schools, health care, and 
local businesses.
    Our industry is highly capital intensive. Building a modern 
sawmill today costs well over $200 million. No business would 
make that kind of an investment to manage Federal lands when 
existing mills are struggling to access supplies of raw 
materials.
    We know what works, but we need to act immediately. Many 
Federal legislative policies fail to support the Federal 
management levels needed to reduce wildfire and insects risk. 
The Forest Service needs clear priorities, and we must fully 
utilize the capacity we already have before exploring new 
markets or industries. The Organic Act of 1897 established our 
national forests with a clear mission: to manage them to ensure 
a permanent wood supply and clean water and prevent destruction 
of insects and fire. Today we are failing to meet those 
objectives. Reduced management is harming forests, watersheds, 
wildlife, and communities. These problems are fixable, but we 
must act fast to save the forest communities and the industry 
that we depend on.
    We have a very serious situation here, and I just want to 
thank you for your time, Mr. Chairman, and God bless America.

    [The prepared statement of Mr. Neiman follows:]
    Prepared Statement of Jim Neiman, President, Neiman Enterprises

    Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My name is Jim Neiman, President of Neiman 
Enterprises, a multi-generational company operating four sawmills in 
South Dakota, Wyoming, Colorado, and Oregon. I appreciate the 
opportunity to provide testimony on this important topic. In addition 
to my role at Neiman Enterprises, I am also a member of the 
Intermountain Forest Association which represents forest products 
companies operating in the Rocky Mountain Region of the USFS and a 
member of the Federal Forest Resource Coalition, which represents 
similar businesses across the country, although I am not representing 
either organization today.
    For 89 years, our family's sawmill business has been built on 
perseverance, adaptability, and a deep-rooted commitment to forestry 
and community. My grandfather founded our first mill in 1936 in Upton, 
Wyoming, later relocating to Hulett in 1940 after a fire.
    In Hulett, a community of about 400 people, if you want to grow 
your company--you must figure out how to grow the community with it. We 
went from 20+ employees in 1974 to 125 employees in 1995. A shortage of 
housing has plagued the community for years. We developed our first 
housing subdivision in 1980 with 33 lots and helped fund the Hulett 
Community Housing Authority, with units for senior and affordable 
housing. We also developed a golf community with an airport to retain 
and attract quality employees.
    Our commitment extends beyond our family; it's about the 
communities where we operate and the forests that sustain them. We 
believe that healthy forests create healthy communities, and our work 
in sustainable forestry ensures both can thrive for generations to 
come.
    Across the US, and even more so in the Western states, there is a 
tremendous partnership in place to manage federal lands. This 
partnership is born out of necessity. The US Forest Service (USFS) 
depends on forest products companies as the primary tool for managing 
forests on their 193 million acres of land while reducing risk from 
wildfires and insect infestations. In turn, forest products companies 
rely on the USFS to provide raw material for manufacturing forest 
products and supporting community economies.
    When this partnership is functioning well, it creates opportunities 
for a healthy industry to make investments in our facilities, and 
allows the Forest Service to implement treatments on the landscape. 
During the first Trump Administration, Secretary of Agriculture Sonny 
Perdue visited the Black Hills and saw first-hand how the partnership 
between the USFS and forest products companies can win wars against 
pine beetle epidemics and save communities from wildfires. And while he 
had hoped to use the Black Hills as a model for other parts of the 
country, we have seen how important leadership is to sustaining that 
type of success.
    Importantly, for this partnership to work, all parties must be 
making the same commitments to accomplish the necessary treatments on 
the land.
    On the Black Hills National Forest, where my company originated and 
has a tremendous amount at stake, the USFS originally proposed a timber 
sale level of 45,000 Cubic Feet (CCF) this fiscal year. They have 
recently stated they hope to get closer to 60,000 ccf this year, 
including all forest products--biomass such as chipping, firewood, 
small diameter post-and-pole material, and sawtimber. Unfortunately, 
that increase is not enough to change the end result.
    To help understand what the program levels mean for our partnership 
in the Black Hills, our family's sawmill located in Spearfish, SD needs 
approximately 90,000 ccf from USFS lands on an annual basis to stay 
operational--this represents about 75-80 percent of the material needs 
at that facility due to the percentage of forested land the federal 
government owns in the Black Hills. This is only one of the facilities 
in the Black Hills and the combined need is much greater.
    In the Black Hills, the industry is heavily integrated with 
companies using all types of products from the Black Hills National 
Forest. Sawmills use larger trees (9'' in diameter or greater), post-
and-pole operators use smaller material predominantly 6'' to 9'' inch 
material, and biomass companies such as wood pellet producers and a 
particle board manufacturer have traditionally utilized residues from 
other facilities rather than using raw material from the forest.
    The current Black Hills Forest Plan allows for 202,000 ccf 
allowable sale quantity and the forest products companies that haven't 
yet closed aren't asking for the maximum.
    We are seeing downturns in forest management on some other national 
forests in Region 2, and within other Regions of the USFS, and the 
resulting impacts on our industry and communities are permanent.
    We are here today, in the first month of a new administration where 
forest management should take a front seat. The reality is that forest 
management isn't a partisan issue and the opinion that we need to be 
doing more in our forests isn't new. However, we have never faced a 
more critical fork in the road for our national forests and the 
communities that call them home and depend on them for economic 
sustainability--the need to greatly increase the scale of timber 
harvest and other forest management is unprecedented.
    Recent administrations of both parties have acknowledged the 
importance of increasing the work we do to manage our national forests.
    Under the Obama administration, the USFS developed a strategy 
titled: Increasing the Pace of Restoration and Job Creation on Our 
National Forests.\1\ That strategy found that between 65-82 million 
acres of NFS lands were in need of forest management actions to restore 
the forests to more sustainable conditions. Restoration activities 
principally involve reducing tree densities and timber outputs during 
that administration actually climbed from about 2.5 Billion Board Feet 
in 2009 to 2.9 Billion Feet in 2016.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \1\ US Forest Service, Increasing the Pace of Restoration and Job 
Creation on Our National Forests: https://www.fs.usda.gov/sites/
default/files/legacy_files/media/types/publication/field_pdf/
increasing-pace-restoration-job-creation-2012.pdf
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    During the first Trump Administration, timber outputs increased 
from around 2.9 Billion Board Feet to 3.2 Billion Board Feet, largely 
through the use of new authorities adopted by Congress since 2004 and 
the Trump Administration's ``Shared Stewardship'' approach which worked 
to improve cooperation and co-management between the Forest Service and 
the States.
    Early into the Biden administration, the US Department of 
Agriculture reported on the first 90 days of their Climate-Smart 
Agriculture and Forestry Strategy.\2\ Within the report, the USDA 
concluded that ``Forest Service and other research scientists have 
determined the current level of treatment is not enough to keep pace 
with the scale and scope of the wildfire problem.'' and that the ``. . 
. USDA must increase the scale of its actions by two to four times more 
than is currently treated.''
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \2\ US Department of Agriculture, Climate Smart Agriculture and 
Forestry Strategy 90-Day Progress Report: https://www.usda.gov/sites/
default/files/documents/climate-smart-ag-forestry-strategy-90-day-
progress-report.pdf
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    After the historic wildfire seasons of 2020 and 2021, the USFS 
responded by developing a strategy to Confront the Wildfire Crisis,\3\ 
which correctly stated that, ``The risk has reached crisis proportions 
in the West, calling for decisive action to protect people and 
communities and improve forest health and resilience.'' As a starting 
point, the strategy called for implementing forest management actions 
on an ADDITIONAL 20 million acres of National Forest System lands by 
2030.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \3\ US Forest Service, Wildfire Crisis Strategy: https://
www.fs.usda.gov/sites/default/files/Confronting-Wildfire-Crisis.pdf
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Unfortunately, despite this commitment to increased timber 
management, commercial timber outputs fell during the Biden 
Administration by more than 17 percent nationally, leaving many Western 
sawmills scrambling to secure adequate raw materials.
    As an industry, we appreciated the attention to this issue during 
the first Trump administration and the recognition that we already have 
the capacity to tremendously improve the health of our National Forests 
by working with the existing forest products industry. Moving forward, 
promising opportunities exist to work with Congress and this second 
Trump administration to develop policy and guidance that finally 
addresses the incredible scale and need for increased treatment on our 
national forests.
    Although the forest management program is currently suffering in 
the Black Hills National Forest, it has a more than 125 year history of 
timber sales and has, at times, served as a shining example of how to 
sustainably manage national forests across the country; beginning with 
the first ever timber sale on federal land in 1899. In the Black Hills 
National Forest, more than four times as much timber has been removed 
as what was present at the time of the first timber sale--and there is 
still approximately three times \4\ as much timber standing today.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \4\ US Forest Service, Revised Black Hills National Forest Timber 
Assessment, p. 38: https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/
fseprd1153857.pdf
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Most recently, timber management on the Black Hills showed that the 
war against insect epidemics can actually be won through timber sales 
conducted at the landscape scale. Forest Service scientists \5\ 
researched the effects of commercial harvest operations on mountain 
pine beetle mortality and found that treated forest stands only 
experienced four percent mortality to insects compared to more than 38 
percent loss in untreated stands. They also found that treatments 
rapidly reduced mortality from pine beetles and concluded that, ``Stand 
density reductions through silviculture across a large geographical 
area can abate MPB-caused tree mortality.''
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \5\ Jose F. Negron, Kurt K. Allen, Angie Ambourn, Blaine Cook, 
Kenneth Marchand, Large-Scale Thinnings, Ponderosa Pine, and Mountain 
Pine Beetle in the Black Hills, USA, Forest Science, Volume 63, Issue 
5, October 2017, Pages 529-536, https://doi.org/10.5849/FS-2016-061
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Further, the Black Hills has directly shown how forest management 
through timber harvest can safeguard communities and the forest alike 
from wildfires. In 2022, the Wabash Springs fire ignited just outside 
the city limits of Custer, SD but within exurban community development. 
The conditions at the time of ignition were dry with moderate drought, 
and winds gusting to 60 mph. A powerline arced and the fire began to 
spread quickly. This is a scene we know all too well in the West. 
Fortunately, the area where the fire began had been previously treated 
with a commercial timber sale to fight mountain pine beetle populations 
and had also received additional follow-up work to further reduce the 
fire danger. The fire was contained to 110 acres and was extinguished 
as quickly as it started. Surveying the area in the months after showed 
no trees were lost and no structures were damaged or destroyed.
    After the fire, local Forest Service officials said they were able 
to suppress the fire and prevent the loss of homes because of the work 
done in recent years by both the Forest Service and private landowners 
in the area. Noting that no structures or even large trees were burned, 
the USFS said ``The fuels treatment and the thinning that's been done 
in and around that area for the last 8-10 years certainly made a 
difference.'' Custer County Emergency Management Director Steve Esser 
echoed that sentiment.\6\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \6\ Wabash Springs Fire Threatened Homes: https://
www.custercountychronicle.com/content/wabash-springs-fire-threatened-
homes
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    That hasn't been the only local example of similar treatments 
saving structures, communities, and certainly the forest from damage.
    And it isn't just the Black Hills where the empirical evidence has 
shown the difference treatments can make locally and across broader 
landscapes.
    Although the previous Administration efforts to prioritize older, 
less productive forests was flawed in terms of goals and process, it 
did illustrate the real risks to our National Forests and efforts to 
provide components of older forests on the landscape in the long-term. 
Through extensive discussion highlighting the outsized impacts to older 
forests from insects and wildfires, the threat assessment \7\ showed 
that mature and old growth forests decreased on ``reserved'' lands 
(Wilderness Areas, Inventoried Roadless Areas, National Monuments, and 
others) but that old growth forests actually increased by nearly 8 
percent on non-reserved lands. In other words, where timber harvest is 
allowed, old growth forests increased in acreage. Conversely, older 
forests decreased on lands set-aside from management.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \7\ USDA and DOI, Mature and Old-Growth Forests Analysis of Threats 
on Lands Managed by the Forest Service and Bureau of Land Management: 
https://www.fs.usda.gov/sites/default/files/fs_media/fs_document/MOG-
threat-analysis.pdf AND https://evergreenmagazine.com/content/files/
2024/06/MOG-threat-analysis.pdf
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    To be clear, and I can speak for the industry as a whole, we want 
to see older forests on the landscape in the long-term but there must 
be recognition that forests are not static and is a foolish endeavor to 
believe we can preserve disturbance prone forests just as we find them 
today, in perpetuity. Age and structure are states of existence, not 
places, and what is old today may be young again and vice-versa.
    Previous examples in this testimony have shown what has and can 
work well. We also know what isn't working for our national forests and 
dependent communities.
    In the Black Hills, our family was forced to close a sawmill during 
record high lumber markets in 2021, because of inadequate USFS timber 
sales. Today, our two remaining sawmills are running at 50 percent 
capacity and incurring tremendous financial losses in the process. 
Those reductions have also negatively impacted the particle board 
manufacturer which relies on the residues produced from the sawmills. 
They are now trucking wood chips across three states to meet a portion 
of their supply and have resorted to chipping operations in the forest 
for other portions of their material needs--at a significantly 
increased cost compared to sawmill residues.
    Again, decreasing USFS outputs have been the primary factor in the 
reductions in our industry and the resulting job losses. Our industry 
is accustomed to volatility in our end use markets. Companies in the 
Black Hills are no exception: we have been in business for decades, 
generations in some instances, and have weathered numerous economic and 
market downturns--but we must have raw materials in order to continue 
our operations. If we have to close up shop, the entire ``value 
chain''--loggers, truckers, equipment dealers, and, most vitally, our 
skilled workers simply have to move on to find gainful employment and 
viable markets. Once lost, it is nearly impossible to rebuild this 
value chain.
    Nationally, we know that competition among producers is fierce, and 
overall the sector doesn't grow much faster than the overall economy. 
We know that mills close for a wide variety of reasons, including 
competition, distance from good markets, lack of adequate investment, 
or mismanagement. We also know that lumber producers who must rely on 
Federal timber resources face the additional challenges presented by an 
inadequate and unpredictable log supply. These challenges have been 
exacerbated by reduced timber outputs over the last four years, leading 
to disproportionate closures of sawmills in areas dominated by National 
Forests.
    While overall timber outputs fell in almost every Forest Service 
regions, the impacts have been particularly damaging in those regions 
where National Forests make up the majority of the productive 
timberland.
    In the Northern Region (Montana and North Idaho), timber outputs 
fell by 39 percent over the last five years, leading to or contributing 
to mill closures in Seeley Lake, MT, St. Regis, MT, and Missoula, MT.
    In the Pacific Northwest Region (Oregon and Washington), timber 
outputs fluctuated widely, but overall they declined by more than 11 
percent. This led to mill closures in Springfield, John Day, Glendale, 
Banks, Riddle, Toledo, and Philomath, OR. New leadership in this Region 
is showing a promising desire to get national forests and forest 
management programs back on track.
    In the Rocky Mountain Region, looking beyond the impacts in the 
Black Hills, there are multiple facilities running at decreased 
production and facing extreme difficulty acquiring logs to keep 
operating. In this region, the closures go beyond just sawmills. A 
renewable energy, biomass fueled power plant was recently forced to 
close when the USFS canceled remaining task orders and did not renew a 
long-term stewardship contract that would have kept the facility 
running and providing renewable energy to the electrical grid in 
Colorado.

[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

    Previous 10 years of timber sale accomplishments in the USFS 
Rocky Mountain Region

    The losses of these facilities do more than make the task of 
managing the National Forests more difficult. They tear at the very 
fabric of these small communities and eliminate meaningful economic 
opportunities, particularly for workers with less than a college 
education. Sawmills and other wood using facilities provide family wage 
jobs that sustain communities year round, and managed forests provide 
healthy and safe areas that sustain active recreation industries as 
well. The managed forests on the Black Hills have historically produced 
hundreds of millions of board feet of timber, yet our tourist industry 
is thriving. We don't need an either/or approach when it comes to 
timber vs. recreation.
    Speaking bluntly about my own home town, Hulett is a small, close-
knit community of about 400 people. Our family business is the economic 
heart of the community. Without it, there is a strong possibility that 
Hulett will become the newest ghost town in the West. While ghost towns 
are somewhat romantic to visit long after the fact, the process of 
becoming a ghost town means the loss of a functioning community with 
access to schools, healthcare, and grocers.
    These closures and curtailments are happening at the same time we 
see millions of national forest acres burning in wildfires or infested 
by insects each year. As a product, there are currently needs \8\ to 
restore forest cover on 7 million acres of USFS land and more than 12 
million acres total of federal lands.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \8\ Reforestation Hub: https://www.reforestationhub.org/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Our industry is highly capital intensive, with a modern, State of 
the Art sawmill costing upwards of $200 Million to build from the 
ground up. Nobody is coming to make investments in the hundreds of 
millions toward the partnership of managing federal lands when the 
current forest products infrastructure is struggling to get supplies of 
raw materials.
    As we discuss forest management today, it is important for the 
Committee to keep in mind that 98 million acres of the National 
Forests--more than half the total acreage--is in restrictive land use 
designations including Wilderness or Roadless areas. By law, no timber 
harvest takes place in Wilderness Areas, and there are extremely 
limited and rarely used exceptions allowing some hazardous fuels 
reduction work in Roadless areas. Management is also restricted in 
National Monuments, Wild & Scenic River Corridors, and other areas 
identified in forest plans.
    We know what works but, frankly, we need to get out of our own way. 
Many federal and legislative policies do not provide for the levels of 
forest management we need to have the desired effect of substantively 
reducing wildfire hazards and insect infestation risks at meaningful 
scales. We also need clear direction of what the priorities of the USFS 
should be and that we should fully utilize the capacity we already have 
in place before getting creative on developing new industries or 
markets.

    I am reminded of the stated objective within the original Organic 
Act of 1897 \9\ which provided for the creation of our national forests 
(then known as forest reserves):
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \9\ Organic Act of 1897: https://www.publiclandsforthepeople.org/
wp-content/uploads/2015/05/ORGANIC-ACT-OF-1897.pdf

     Public forest reservations are established to protect and 
            improve the forests for the purpose of securing a permanent 
            supply of timber for the people and insuring conditions 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
            favorable to continuous water flow; and

     The Secretary of the Interior shall make provisions for 
            the protection against destruction by fire and depredations 
            upon the public forests and forest reservations which may 
            have been set aside or which may be hereafter set aside 
            under said Act

    Although some could say times have changed, it is clear the current 
reduced level of management on national forests is not having a 
beneficial effect of protecting the forests, habitat, watersheds, 
communities, or our climate from damages inflicted by wildfires and 
insect epidemics.
    The problems in our forest are fixable, but we must act urgently to 
save the forests, and the companies and communities that depend on 
them.

                                 ______
                                 

    Mr. Tiffany. Thank you, Mr. Neiman. Now we will take 
members questions.
    Members, you will have 5 minutes for your questioning, and 
we will start out with the gentleman from California, Mr. 
McClintock.
    Mr. McCormick. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. You know, listening 
to the Ranking Member and the Democratic witness talk about the 
need for more money, I am struck by the fact that throughout 
the 20th century we not only maintained healthy and fire-
resilient forests, we made money doing it. Federal timber 
auctions, Federal grazing contracts actually generated an 
enormous flow of capital. Twenty-five percent of that funding 
went to local governments that were impacted by the Federal 
lands to compensate them for land that is off their tax rolls, 
and the other 75 percent went into our land management agencies 
right back into good land management.
    Mr. Neiman, what happened?
    Mr. Neiman. I can reflect back into the 1970s and 1980s and 
watch what we went through. But when I look at what happened in 
the 1990s and the Forest Service cutting the volume 
considerably back, we lost a lot of sawmills through that time 
period.
    Mr. McCormick. Yes, we saw that in the Sierra Nevada. We 
saw a 75 percent reduction in timber harvested off the Federal 
lands, and we saw a concomitant increase in acreage destroyed 
by catastrophic fire in the same period. We saw the number of 
sawmills operating in California go from about, I think it was, 
180 down to about 30. And we have now entered an era of 
catastrophic fire.
    Now, there is nothing new in that. Before the 20th century 
paleontologists tell us we lost about 4.5 million acres a year 
to catastrophic fire in California. But land management brought 
that down to about 250,000 acres a year, a fraction of what we 
had lost to nature because of good land management. But we 
passed laws then that made that management all but impossible, 
and we have watched the acreage destroyed by catastrophic fire 
return to their pre-modern levels. In 2020 we lost about 4.3, I 
think, million acres to catastrophic fire in California.
    Now, is that nature or is that policy?
    Mr. Neiman. Well, I would refer to policy first, but when 
you recognize that most of those forests are growing from one 
to two to three to 4 percent a year, and you are compounding 
that growth every year for now three decades, you have 
increased your inventory of carbon in that forest horrendously 
from what it was naturally back 100 years ago. So the policy 
has caused a huge problem in building back to where we now have 
catastrophic fires due to the fuel load on all those forests.
    Mr. McCormick. Mr. Canterbury, we not only auctioned off 
excess timber to provide revenues for land management, but we 
also did a great deal more ranching. You know, you mentioned 
that, sheep and cattle ranching that suppress brush growth. Why 
aren't we doing that these days at the same levels that we used 
to?
    Mr. Canterbury. Thank you, Congressman. And so I think, if 
we look back in history, the significant reduction to the AUMs 
that is allowed today versus what there was 30, 40, 50 years 
ago is very significant. So I would say nothing replaces good 
conservation and land management on the ground.
    Mr. McCormick. Right.
    Mr. Canterbury. It can't be made back here. I am sorry. We 
need to be able to dictate our own futures on the ground, 
working with our partners every day, whatever agency that may 
be.
    Mr. McCormick. Yes. One of the other sad things, I toured 
the devastation of the Southern California fires a few weeks 
ago and just noted that is how nature gardens. She removes 
excess growth by disease, pestilence, drought, and ultimately 
catastrophic fire.
    And I recall the City of Altadena being absolutely 
destroyed by the fires. The Trump administration, in its first 
term, started the years-long process to get a permit to cut 
fire breaks to protect the town of Altadena from the 
surrounding national forest. Biden came in, reversed that, and 
then declared wilderness protection over those forests that 
make land management all but impossible, and the result was 
nature returned to do the gardening, and Altadena was destroyed 
in the process. It is sad.
    Thanks for being here today.
    Mr. Neiman. Thank you.
    Mr. Tiffany. The gentleman from California yields, and I 
will recognize the gentleman, the Ranking Member of the 
Subcommittee, Mr. Neguse, for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Neguse. I thank the Chairman, and thank you to each of 
our witnesses for being here for traveling to Washington, D.C. 
in some cases. We appreciate your testimony.
    In particular, I want to thank my good friend and someone 
whom I think has been an exceptional public servant in the 
State of Colorado for many, many years, and that is 
Commissioner, State Representative, State Senator, and now, of 
course, Executive Director Gibbs. And I couldn't agree more and 
concur with his assessments regarding what needs to be done 
with respect to a number of the issues that he described. And 
of course, I am biased because he is my constituent back in 
Summit County, Colorado. But we are grateful for him being 
here.
    I want to just follow up. Mr. Canterbury. Canterbury? 
Sorry, I hope I pronounced that right.
    Mr. Canterbury. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Neguse. Yes, sir. OK, great. I want to follow up on one 
particular provision of your written testimony. So I believe 
this is the second-to-last page. You write, ``As one of,'' it 
says, ``While the list is not exhaustive, I offer the following 
suggestions for immediate action.'' And one of those 
suggestions, you have underlined it, ``direct targeted 
resources to environmental analysis and permitting for 
rangeland monitoring and grazing allotments.'' What do you mean 
by targeted resources?
    Mr. Canterbury. So thank you, Ranking Member Neguse. It is 
a pleasure to be here today.
    So what we are talking about there on those targeted funds, 
if you will, we need to very specifically target some funding. 
Every agency, as you know, is out of funds. We need some 
funding directly for the monitoring protocols that we all live 
by so the agencies can get this monitoring done.
    Mr. Neguse. That is right. So here is why I ask. No, you 
answered the question. Thank you, Mr. Canterbury, because you 
have resolved that in my mind. I just wanted to make sure I 
understood that. When you said ``targeted resources,'' what you 
mean is targeted funding. That is the word you used. I concur 
with that assessment.
    Were you invited here by the majority or by the minority of 
this Committee as a witness today?
    Mr. Canterbury. That is a really good question. I am 
assuming I was invited by----
    [Laughter.]
    Mr. Neguse. Why don't I answer that question for you? You 
were invited by the majority, and we are delighted to have you. 
In particular, as a Coloradan, I am certainly delighted to have 
you here.
    But the reason why I say this is my colleague from 
California, you know, took great umbrage with the idea that the 
Democratic witness and Democratic Members of Congress are 
demanding more funding. And yet right here, one of your 
principal recommendations, and it is a common-sense 
recommendation, by the way, is for more funding for the nature 
of the work that you have described.
    And it is not all that complicated, right? I mean, many of 
you have testified about multiple use and, you know, some of my 
colleagues on the other side of the aisle, you know, agree with 
your assessments regarding timber sales or energy leases. Who 
manages those? Who would you go about calling if you were going 
to try to procure a timber sale? How does that happen, Mr. 
Canterbury?
    Mr. Canterbury. So Ranking Member, thank you for that 
question.
    Mr. Neguse. Sure.
    Mr. Canterbury. I don't deal in the timber industry, but I 
certainly deal in the livestock industry.
    Mr. Neguse. Sure.
    Mr. Canterbury. And my cows eat the understory----
    Mr. Neguse. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Canterbury [continuing]. And keep those veggies, those 
succulent vegetative plants----
    Mr. Neguse. But where would you go about procuring a 
grazing lease? Who do you go to?
    Mr. Canterbury. So I----
    Mr. Neguse. You go to the Federal agencies, right? You go 
to the BLM.
    Mr. Canterbury. I deal with my local agency, folks.
    Mr. Neguse. Correct.
    Mr. Canterbury. Yes, sir, I do.
    Mr. Neguse. Exactly, right? They are Federal employees. 
These are individuals who work for the Federal Government, 
particularly the BLM. Right? The same can be said for any 
number of the multiple uses that this Committee is apparently 
endeavoring to discuss today.
    My broader point is that, as we are discussing multiple use 
and the benefits of multiple use and the need for the Federal 
Government to be more responsive, a mile away President Trump 
is  endeavoring to gut every Federal agency piece by piece. 
Mass rescission offers, buyouts, so-called buyout offers to the 
Federal Government, including some of the same BLM employees 
that you work with, sir, that every witness here works with, 
and it feels a little bit like we are in the Twilight Zone 
here. You know, that we are supposed to have a sort of normal 
Federal Lands Subcommittee hearing to discuss the propriety or 
the benefits of multiple use and ignore the storm that is 
developing around us.
    I mean, I am sure you all are aware of this. Agencies are 
being shut down here in Washington, the CFPB, effectively, just 
a few days ago. I don't know if the BLM will be next. I suppose 
we are going to find out.
    So I would just encourage the Chairman of this 
Subcommittee, and I want to give him my sense, we certainly are 
not going to treat these hearings as business as usual until 
our colleagues on the other side of the aisle step up, tell the 
administration to pull back, and we can get back to regular 
order, because there is a lot that these witnesses have 
proposed that is reasonable and common sense and bipartisan. 
But let me assure all of you, none of it, none of it will come 
to fruition if the current administration has its way.
    And I yield back.
    Mr. Tiffany. The gentleman yields. I now recognize the 
gentleman from Minnesota, Mr. Stauber, for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Stauber. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As you know well, in 
northern Minnesota we have the three T's: timber, taconite, and 
tourism. I would argue there are few communities across this 
great Nation that understand and benefit from the multi-use 
mandate more than the communities across northern Minnesota 
that I am proud to represent.
    My district is home to two working industrial forests, 
including the Chippewa National Forest and the Superior 
National Forest, where we responsibly harvest timber and mine 
the taconite that is used in production of 80-plus percent of 
this Nation's domestically-produced steel. And located on the 
Superior is the Duluth Complex, which is the largest untapped 
copper nickel find in the entire world. But we will only be 
able to responsibly mine these minerals needed to power our 
21st century economy forward if we uphold and promote the 
multiple use mandate on our Federal lands.
    Mr. Neiman, thank you for being here today. I want to share 
that I know your industry quite well, given the makeup of my 
district. It is home to dozens and dozens of timber harvesters, 
mills, and other wood product manufacturers. Unfortunately, we 
have seen several mills shut down in recent years, leading to 
the loss of hundreds of jobs. And in most cases this has been 
due to regulatory burdens put in place by the EPA and other 
federal regulatory agencies, as well as the Forest Service's 
failure to uphold their end of the bargain of the multiple use 
mandate and enable us to reach our timber harvesting goals. Can 
you talk about the economic impact of mill closures in rural 
communities where your companies operate?
    Mr. Neiman. I sure could. Thank you very much, and please 
say hi to Howard Hedstrom for me.
    Mr. Stauber. I know Howard very well.
    Mr. Neiman. A great friend.
    I am going to talk first. I have lived through six 
recessions in my lifetime at my age, going clear back to the to 
the 1970s. And our family has been able to weather those storms 
and get through them. This is the first recession in the timber 
business that we have been in that we have had to deal with no 
timber supply and running out of wood. You can figure out how 
to get through recessions sometimes and weather storms like we 
have in the past, but you can't operate a sawmill without wood.
    Along with what you recognized, the high cost of added 
costs that has happened in inflation over the last three or 4 
years, and all the regulation that comes on with that, that 
regulation has cost the government a whole lot more to put up 
that wood and made it less valuable to us at the same time, 
with the added cost we have to go through.
    So I hope that answers your question.
    Mr. Stauber. It does. And there was a timber harvester that 
was reluctant to even go out and harvest the timber. He 
couldn't afford the fuel, wasn't going to make it on just 
harvesting the timber.
    So Mr. Neiman, one last question. Is it fair to say that if 
the Forest Service was doing a better job of meeting its timber 
harvesting goals, many of the jobs in the timber harvesting and 
forest products industries wouldn't be at risk allowing for the 
maximum allowable sale to be harvested?
    Mr. Neiman. I don't know of any forest in the country that 
is meeting their ASQ.
    Mr. Stauber. Right.
    Mr. Neiman. I know of none.
    Mr. Stauber. That is the point of the question. Thank you. 
Thank you.
    Mr. Gibbs, is a forest fire subject to a NEPA analysis?
    Mr. Gibbs. [No response.]
    Mr. Stauber. That is not hard.
    Mr. Gibbs. No.
    Mr. Stauber. Is a forest fire subject to PM NAAQS 
regulations?
    Mr. Gibbs. No.
    Mr. Stauber. What does a better job of sequestering carbon 
from our atmosphere, a manufactured wood product, an insect-
infested tree, or a burnt forest?
    Mr. Gibbs. You know, our----
    Mr. Stauber. That is not hard, either. It is a manufactured 
wood product.
    [Laughter.]
    Mr. Stauber. Mr. Gibbs, thank you very much.
    Mr. Chair, I yield back.
    Mr. Tiffany. The gentleman yields. I now recognize the 
Ranking Member, Mr. Huffman, for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Huffman. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I always learn 
something in these hearings. Mr. Stauber just, you know, 
suggested maybe if we require NEPA for forest fires we could 
solve this problem. I wish it was that simple.
    I also wish it was as simple as my colleague from 
California portrayed in his very nostalgic, gauzy view of the 
1970s. I wish that all of the problems of rural economies and 
fire risk could be solved by just rewinding back to the 1970s 
and doing everything the way we used to back then.
    But the truth is not everything was perfectly done in the 
1970s. In fact, some of the timber harvest that took place in 
the 1970s and 1980s was not sustainable. Some of these 
clearcuts created long-term damage. I mean, we still have 
watersheds that are bombed out, fisheries that are devastated 
by erosion and other problems from some clearcutting that just 
shouldn't have happened, at least not in the way that it did, 
not only driving some species to the brink of extinction but 
devastating salmon in the Western United States. And we have 
had to spend so much public dollars trying to restore a lot of 
the damage that was done then.
    And I look around my district and some of the most 
unhealthy forests that we have were forests that were clearcut 
during that golden age and then replanted with, you know, even-
age plantation forests that are totally unhealthy and very 
vulnerable to catastrophic fires. So we shouldn't be too 
nostalgic and gauzy about the 1970s. We are all trying to solve 
problems here, but I think we have got to do it with clear 
eyes.
    And so, Director Gibbs, I wanted to ask you just about what 
is happening right now with this Federal funding freeze because 
in my district I just recently talked to the Humboldt County 
Resource Conservation District about how the freeze in Federal 
funding and all of this chaos and uncertainty is causing their 
entire community wildfire defense program to just be frozen and 
suspended. And, of course, they work with other partners, with 
Tribes and local governments and private landowners. Often the 
Federal funding leverages all of those other resources, it gets 
people working together in ways that they wouldn't otherwise 
collaborate. And we are now weeks into a freeze. We could be 
months in before it is over. We could lose the entire season.
    Tell me what is happening in Colorado, and what are your 
thoughts about the effects of these actions on the ground?
    Mr. Gibbs. Thank you, Congressman, for that question. To 
say the least, it has created major uncertainty, for the 
Colorado Department of Natural Resources. We have more than 350 
Federal grants that support approximately $300 million worth of 
programs, with a staff capacity of 490 people that are funded 
through Federal funding.
    We do extensive work at the Department of Natural 
Resources. Picture us almost like a miniature Department of the 
Interior. We handle land, water, wildlife, minerals, and oil 
and gas. And let me just give you a quick snapshot of some of 
these potential impacts. And we are really monitoring this 
closely, because it is day by day. Initially, when the 
executive orders came out I had meetings first thing in the 
morning and then later on in the afternoon because there was 
such uncertainty for me and my staff to understand what are we 
going to be reimbursed for, who is going to be our partner.
    Just a couple of days ago, my staff asked us if I should 
fund a $4 million critical dam project that our parks and 
wildlife team manage. And this is considered a dam where, if 
there was a breach, there could be huge consequences for a 
local community if not funded, and we decided to fund that 
program moving forward without really knowing if we are going 
to be reimbursed.
    But everything from wildlife operations to outdoor 
recreation, aquatic nuisance species as you know, out West that 
is a huge challenge. With the Water Conservation Board, we have 
a water-ready watersheds program that works with local 
communities to do a threat analysis to understand, if there was 
a major catastrophic wildfire, what that would mean to the 
local community, where those sediment issues would be, where 
the community would be most at risk. We also have a floodplain 
mapping unit that is funded through the Federal Government.
    And then our Energy and Carbon Management Commission, we 
have our orphan well program. And then, to this date, within 
our Division of Reclamation, Mining, and Safety, our program 
for our abandoned mine program which is funded through IIJA 
funds, are frozen right now.
    Mr. Huffman. Yes.
    Mr. Gibbs. And this is looking at, critically the life and 
safety of people in Colorado, where if our team can't get in 
there and do remediation work, it could have seismic challenges 
for our communities.
    And so it has created uncertainty and huge challenges and 
confusions, to say the least. But we are monitoring it very 
closely.
    Mr. Huffman. Thank you very much.
    I yield back, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. Tiffany. The gentleman yields. I now recognize Mr. 
Amodei from the great State of Nevada for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Amodei. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, I appreciate it.
    You know, it is interesting to me to hear questions 
regarding public lands, obviously, that is this Subcommittee, 
and how things are going, and uncertainty that is caused by 
things from members that have left, as a State that the Federal 
Government owns between 80 and 85 percent of.
    And if you don't think that is impact, and sir, you got my 
attention when you said, hey, 80 percent of my county, but I 
was busy feeling sorry for you because my colleague to my right 
said, ``That guy used to be my boss.'' I am going, geez, I 
wonder how he is holding up.
    [Laughter.]
    Mr. Amodei. But anyhow, nonetheless, I want to just start 
with before all this uncertainty of 23 or 24 days ago, and 
let's start with you, Mr. Gibbs.
    Can you tell me if the Forest Service before 24 days ago 
was fully staffed for all their positions in your State? Timber 
people, watershed people, archeological people? Were they fully 
staffed federally in the State of Colorado?
    And when you tell me that, if you know, tell me about BLM. 
Were they 100 percent on range cons, 100 percent on realty 
executives, 100 percent on all that?
    And let me tell you why I am asking you so I am not trying 
to trick you. But the reason I am asking you is because if you 
want to talk about staffing and resources, it is like even 
though there was a lot of money poured into the Department of 
the Interior under the last administration, they weren't 
filling those jobs. They weren't paying those people a wage 
that they could live in your communities. And we will go 
through Utah, and if you are answering for Colorado, we will go 
through anybody else who wants to talk about it.
    But my point here is, when was the last time that resources 
were fully funded in terms of personnel to manage those assets 
and those programs that you talked about, to your knowledge, in 
Colorado?
    Mr. Gibbs. Yes, yes. Thank you, Congressman. I don't know 
all those answers because, of course, I don't work for the BLM 
or U.S. Forest Service.
    But I will tell you, Congressman, that we do have a shared 
stewardship agreement with U.S. Forest Service. It is very 
robust.
    Mr. Amodei. Let me stop you there because my time is 
limited.
    Mr. Gibbs. OK.
    Mr. Amodei. So I will take that as an ``I don't know.''
    Well, I do, because I do oversight for those agencies. And 
if they are fully staffed in your State, then God bless you. 
Because you know what? The staffing levels in my State, where 
the land management mission is no more important than anywhere 
else, they control the whole State, 80-plus percent. And you 
know what? They can't get people to apply, even.
    And you know what? As a guy who works on the appropriations 
side, it is like, please pay your people a living wage so they 
can go work in Gunnison, or they can go work in Heber or 
wherever, and it is like, yes, we are working on that, we are 
working on that.
    And I will just say this. And I think I am going to get the 
same thing, and so I am not going to press this, but I will 
just tell you this. You want to talk about resources for 
agencies that manage public resources? It goes back a long way 
before 23 days ago, and it is shameful. I have got this saying. 
It is like last time we had a resource administration, here is 
a bipartisan statement, ladies and gentleman, was probably 
Teddy Roosevelt. And you know who knows that more than anybody 
else? I would submit Westerners know that. Your Western State, 
my Western State struggle to manage vast tracts of Federal 
resources. And we can argue about what the right management is, 
but how can you sit there and gripe about it when we are not 
funding basic resource decisions even some of which I may 
disagree with?
    So I would just say, it is interesting that we do this in 
the context of, if you are really about the resources, you 
really ought to give your Federal land managers and those 
agencies the ability to engage fully. And you may have an 
agreement with them. I mean, my State does, too. But it is 
like, when you talk about millions of acres, it is like, eh, we 
will do the best we can.
    But I will tell you what. It is time to talk about who is 
responsible for vast tracts of land in all Western States, and 
giving them the tools to do it, whether it is range cons, 
forest techs, everything from soup to nuts.
    With that, Mr. Chairman, I would like to yield the 
remainder of my time, if I could, to my colleague from Utah.
    Ms. Maloy. OK. Well, in the 30 seconds I have, I am just 
going to do one thing that I think would be cool, but I don't 
want to spend my 5 minutes on it.
    Eric, the last time we had a witness here from Utah he had 
his dad and his wife with him, and I said, ``Bringing your 
family is pretty Utah''. But could we just have your family 
stand up for a second?
    Because everybody in here is related to Eric Clarke.
    [Laughter.]
    Ms. Maloy. Come on, hurry. I have only got 13 seconds.
    So that might be the most Utah thing I have seen, that you 
have that many family members here to watch you testify.
    And with that I will yield back the remainder of Mr. 
Amodei's time.
    Mr. Amodei. Happy to help people from Utah.
    [Laughter.]
    Mr. Tiffany. The gentleman yields, and we will allow no 
more outbursts like that from the Chair here in the Committee.
    [Laughter.]
    Mr. Tiffany. Now we would like to recognize Ms. Dexter from 
Oregon.
    And by the way, welcome to the Subcommittee.
    Ms. Dexter. Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman, and I really 
appreciate this opportunity to serve.
    I did want to just briefly say that job security being 
eroded is probably not helping recruitment as we move forward, 
but that is a little bit of a side note.
    As a representative for the State of Oregon, where over 50 
percent of our land is federally managed, I know firsthand the 
beauty, biodiversity, and critical resources the public lands 
have to offer. So thank you all for your testimony today and 
for coming on behalf of these public lands. They are treasures.
    In my own district I have the privilege of representing one 
of Oregon's natural treasures and a critical resource, as well, 
the Mount Hood National Forest. And the Mount Hood Wilderness 
is home to diversity and a vibrant ecosystem, and certainly 
provides drinking water to more than one million people in the 
Portland area. And it generates millions annually for the local 
economy, as well, by facilitating various recreational 
activities, which I know are also very popular in Colorado and 
Utah.
    A recent poll found that 85 percent of voters in the 
western U.S. support efforts to protect more of our natural 
landscapes. So there is a balance to be struck between 
development and conservation, clearly. But what I am hearing 
from my Republican colleagues seems to potentially ignore our 
community's desire to ensure our children have access to a 
clean and livable environment for years to come. And I say that 
knowing the concerns that we have for our investments in our 
agencies.
    So I am going to pivot to tribal co-management now. We have 
heard from witnesses today that an important component of 
public lands management involves the input of local 
communities. And if we want to ensure public lands are managed 
for the greater good, we have to acknowledge that the 
ecological expertise of local Indigenous communities are a key 
component of achieving this goal. So it is for this reason I am 
interested in advancing efforts led by my predecessor, Mr. 
Blumenauer, to ensure the Warm Springs Tribe in Oregon is made 
a true partner in the U.S. Forest Service's efforts to steward 
the public lands within and around Mount Hood.
    So Mr. Gibbs, you noted in your testimony the importance of 
importance of shared stewardship. What are the benefits of 
incorporating tribal voices into that stewardship of Federal 
lands?
    And how might these co-management plans improve our 
conservation efforts?
    Mr. Gibbs. Well, thank you, Representative, for that 
question.
    In Colorado we have a very strong working relationship with 
our two federally recognized Tribes. They are the Southern Ute 
and Ute Mountain Ute. And we do not have currently co-
management agreements, but we do have very strong State-to-
tribal relationships that we can explore, you know, that in the 
future.
    We are currently working very closely on fire mitigation 
work, where we can, you know, partner on reservation land, 
exploring, you know, State funding that could be there. Our 
team is working monthly to work together to really find a sweet 
spot to make sure that their voices are heard. I brought in an 
Assistant Director on Tribal Affairs for the Department of 
Natural Resources so we can look at all of our eight divisions 
and really look for potential partnerships and collaborations 
moving forward.
    Ms. Dexter. Great, thank you. And it is clear that these 
Indigenous communities have cared for these lands for time 
immemorial. So we must therefore do better to seek their 
partnership, so thank you for your leadership in that regard.
    In 2020 the Mount Hood Wilderness was ravaged by two 
wildfires, and crews are still working on reopening 
recreational areas. Mr. Gibbs, you are certified wildland 
firefighter by training. In your experience as a firefighter 
and your capacity now as the head of Colorado Natural 
Resources, do you think that tribal co-stewardship has helped 
in efforts to curb wildfire with the efforts you have made?
    Mr. Gibbs. Yes, they have definitely helped, for sure. And 
it was a great honor to serve on the National Wildfire 
Commission, where we came up with 148 consensus-based 
recommendations. So whether you are a Republican or Democrat on 
this Committee, I really urge you to take a hard look at those 
recommendations. And tribal voices were a strong voice on those 
recommendations. So most definitely we look for partnerships.
    Ms. Dexter. Very good. So I am going to conclude in my 28 
seconds.
    It is vital that we work together to promote policies that 
strengthen our local economies without sacrificing our 
children's ability to grow up and have access to these clean, 
livable environments. And I look forward to working with the 
majority on these policies, and I believe our tribal 
communities will look forward to that, as well. Thank you.
    Mr. Tiffany. The gentlelady yields. I now recognize the 
gentleman from Idaho, Mr. Fulcher.
    Mr. Fulcher. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to the 
panel for coming and sharing with us today. This is always 
educational for us. And forgive some of us who have competing 
committees. We bounce in and bounce out, so if I do hit a 
repeat, that is why. But thank you again for being here.
    And Mr. Chairman, thanks for having this hearing. The 
multiple use issue is hugely important. As pointed out, the 
Federal Government has got about 640 million acres of land 
across the U.S., and about 33 million of those are in my home 
State of Idaho. And in Idaho the Bureau of Land Management 
manages around 11 million acres for multiple use purposes, and 
the Forest Service has about 20.4 million acres, including 
significant portions of three national forests.
    But here is the rub: the deferred maintenance backlog just 
for the U.S. Forest Service, this is across the country, but a 
lot of that is in Idaho, is somewhere in the neighborhood of 
$8.7 billion, with a B. For Interior, that number is somewhere 
around $32 billion. That is the deferred maintenance backlog. 
So whether you agree with the Federal management and the 
process and all that or not, the bottom line is they are 
overwhelmed. There is just simply not the resources to do it.
    And the ramifications of the BLM public lands rule in Idaho 
have been hugely substantial. Stretches of BLM-managed 
rangeland critical for livestock grazing have been heavily 
affected, and our ranchers are now required to renew grazing 
permits in restricting conditions that places additional 
burdens on their operations and threatening the economic 
viability of our communities.
    Additionally to that, for some time our sawmills have been 
facing closures because the project permits have not been 
available. The timber is there, we have got more than enough of 
that, but we can't get the logging project permits from Federal 
land, and it fails to meet our industry needs.
    Mr. Neiman, I did catch most of your opening statement, but 
you describe some of this, maybe not in the same words, but how 
do you think that we best hold our Federal agencies 
accountable? From your vantage point, how do we ensure that we 
can improve some of those access to some of the resources we 
have got?
    Mr. Neiman. One of the things I would look really hard at, 
and thanks for a very important question, one of the solutions 
I would use would be Good Neighbor Authority.
    I know in Idaho, because I know a bunch of the industry in 
Idaho, in Wyoming, in Colorado that have strong ties to, 
through their State agencies, particularly State forests, to 
help out. So Good Neighbor can step in and know what is best on 
the ground in those States themselves. So I would love to see 
in this transition that we are going through right now that 
more authority is given to States to step in and treat those 
lands, because they know what is best. They are the ones that 
have to deal with the fires and the insects.
    We are in the middle of a catastrophe right now nationwide 
in all the Western States of overstocked lands, of fuel loads 
on the forest. And it, almost needs to be acted as an 
emergency, and that means we need more timber sales. And we 
can't do that without the existing forest products industry. If 
they go away, you have fewer tools in the toolbox for the 
Forest Service to treat it. So we have got to have new thinking 
going on here.
    Mr. Fulcher. So to your point, we had about a million acres 
go up, just under a million acres of wildfire this last year, 
just in Idaho in the last year. So that is to your point.
    And I will just also say, because I am going to run out of 
time for questions, I will submit those in writing.
    But I want to give you a follow-up on the Good Neighbor 
Authority. We do use that heavily in Idaho. Last Congress I 
launched that again to include counties and Tribes to be 
authorized for that, and that got through the House but not the 
Senate. So we are going to try that again, and I think we will 
get that done. So we are going to get that expanded.
    I have got just a little bit left here, so I am going to 
jump to Mr. Canterbury.
    What steps do you believe that Congress should be taking to 
protect grazing rights? What is the best thing we can do for 
you?
    Mr. Canterbury. Thank you, Congressman and, as stated in my 
testimony, I think you all have an obligation for oversight on 
our agency folks. Make certain that they are following through 
with the guidance that you have given them, and they are not 
leaving the reservation and going on their own.
    Mr. Fulcher. Thank you for that, a point well taken. And I 
would add that there are some lawsuit issues we also have to 
deal with, but that is for another time and testimony, because 
I am out of time.
    Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
    Mr. Tiffany. The gentleman from Idaho yields. I now 
recognize the gentlelady from New Mexico, Ms. Stansbury.
    Ms. Stansbury. Great, thank you so much, Mr. Chairman, 
Madam Ranking Member.
    Thank you, all of you for traveling out here today. I have 
enjoyed listening to you today. I am Melanie Stansbury, and I 
am deeply proud to represent New Mexico's 1st congressional 
district, which is right in the heart of central New Mexico and 
includes 10 rural counties. And so I know very well all of the 
issues that you all are here to talk about today, and I really 
thank all four of our witnesses here today.
    And I agree wholeheartedly with Mr. Clarke. We have a 
broken bureaucracy, and there are certainly no easy solutions.
    And Mr. Neiman, we absolutely need to be supporting our 
local timber sawmills. They are a critical part of the West, 
and especially also of forest stewardship. And I think 
especially family-run businesses are particularly important.
    And I also agree, Mr. Canterbury, that grazing is an 
important part of the West, and our food system and also, 
increasingly for forest management, having our livestock not 
only grazing to make food but also helping with forest 
stewardship is also becoming an increasingly important tool.
    And Dr. Gibbs, I appreciate your testimony today and I am 
going to ask a question here in a moment.
    And, you know, I want to just say I am excited to serve on 
this Committee. My background is as a water resources 
professional. I rarely get to say that these days, but I worked 
for 20-plus years in the field of water resources planning and 
drought management and, obviously, the intersection with land 
stewardship, and so I really appreciate the opportunity to 
serve on this Committee.
    But I am concerned about what we have seen over the last 3 
weeks in terms of what the administration has been putting 
forward in terms of policies. We saw a whole slew of executive 
orders on the first day of this administration, essentially 
undoing much of what the previous administration had done to 
protect private and sensitive lands, especially lands that are 
important for conservation reasons, for climate resilience, for 
wildlife habitat, for endangered species.
    There were areas that were removed from drilling in the 
Outer Continental Shelf because they were considered unsuitable 
for various reasons, areas in Alaska that have been removed for 
decades that, executive orders rolled back the protections for. 
And just in the last couple of weeks we have seen a slew of 
executive orders at the Department of the Interior that are 
targeting DEI programs, that are targeting energy and mining, 
the Outer Continental Shelf in Alaska, and we are also hearing 
that the Department of the Interior is reviewing the protection 
for national monuments.
    And I think all of these actions by the administration need 
to be discussed. Because when you take them in the entirety of 
what they add up to, it is not just the rollback of the work 
that the last administration did, it is really the opening of 
massive amounts of public lands, waters, and mineral resources 
across the West to multi-national corporations. And for what 
purpose?
    You know, in the case of New Mexico they are talking about 
taking away protections for Chaco Canyon. This is one of the 
most sacred places on the face of the planet for our Pueblo and 
Dine people. And they want to actually open up the greater 
Chaco Canyon area for oil and gas drilling so that some oil and 
gas companies can make a few million dollars off of it and ruin 
it for all of eternity?
    They are talking about opening, you know, a vast mining 
operation at Oak Flat in Arizona, which is the sacred site of 
the Apache people for thousands of years. There are reasons why 
we protected these places. It is not an ideological affinity 
for some technical term around multiple use. It is because they 
are sacred, because they have cultural importance.
    And the funding freezes are going to have real impacts for 
our communities. All of you talked about land and water 
impacts.
    And Dr. Gibbs, I know you have already answered this, but, 
taking away and freezing all of this funding, millions of 
dollars to States, Tribes, and local governments that could 
help with land stewardship, what kind of impact is that going 
to have on our communities?
    Mr. Gibbs. Yes, thank you for that question. It could have 
devastating impacts on wildfire issues, devastating impacts on 
protecting life, property, and critical infrastructure.
    You know from your experience being a water leader, impacts 
just on wildfires alone, if we don't have the resources and 
staff capacity to get out there to do fire mitigation work, to 
put together firebreaks, to work with our local communities to 
make sure we are doing work at the right pace, right location, 
right scale, could have dramatic, dramatic impacts not only on 
people in my community, but I know you know Colorado River 
issues well, too, of course. But it could have devastating 
impacts on 40 million people that depend on Colorado River 
water, for example.
    And so the relationship we have with our Federal partners, 
you know, whether it is dealing with remediation of orphan 
wells or old abandoned mines, water quality and quantity, these 
are life-and-death issues for people. It is not just something 
that should be wrapped up into politics at all.
    This is something that, being the head of the Department of 
Natural Resources, I think of often. You know, I stay up at 
night thinking about not if, but when we have our next 
megafire, and thinking about all the different partners that 
are involved with fighting that fire and so forth. And whether 
it is the BLM or the U.S. Forest Service, they are my brothers 
and sisters as we work to problem-solve this.
    And so it is scary to think about what potential impacts we 
could have. And we are just really monitoring it closely 
because we are just not sure right now what is in versus out, 
what is considered Green New Deal or what is not, you know? And 
for us it is common sense partnership at the end of the day 
that we need.
    Ms. Stansbury. Thank you very much.
    And thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I hope that these funding 
freezes, and obviously, the courts are weighing in right now, 
but I think, you know, as was noted, this is life or death, 
especially in our fire-prone communities.
    And I noted, Dr. Gibbs, you are also a firefighter. Thank 
you for your service.
    Thank you.
    Mr. Tiffany. Does the gentlelady yield?
    OK, the gentlelady yields. I now recognize Representative 
Maloy for 5 minutes.
    Ms. Maloy. Well, I want to thank all of the witnesses for 
being here. I know this is a big sacrifice, and it really is 
helpful for us. I have follow-up questions for Mr. Canterbury, 
Mr. Gibbs, and Mr. Neiman, but you can probably relax because I 
have my old boss up here and I only have 5 minutes to ask him 
questions. So I probably won't get to any of you. I may have to 
ask follow-up questions.
    So for my colleagues, you know Eric Clarke is a smart guy 
because he hired me right out of law school before he knew if I 
had passed the bar.
    [Laughter.]
    Ms. Maloy. But also, when I first interviewed he hired 
somebody else, not me. He hired me the second time. So this is 
a really long revenge plan I am working on here.
    [Laughter.]
    Ms. Maloy. Now I have got him where I can ask him 
questions.
    Mr. Clarke, you talked about consistency in your testimony, 
and some of these are projects you and I worked on together 
where we are working with an agency and they make one decision, 
but it takes them years to make a decision, then they roll back 
that decision and it takes them years to roll back the 
decision, then they change it again and it takes them years and 
you have to keep studying it.
    And I have sat here and listened to a lot of talk about 
funding being frozen, and how that is going to impact agencies. 
I just wonder if you can give us a guess. How much money do you 
think it could have saved taxpayers in Washington County if the 
agencies, like our friend, Mr. Canterbury, suggested, targeted 
resources on getting projects done, instead of dragging their 
feet for years while taxpayers are paying for man hours and 
also analysis?
    Mr. Clarke. Thanks, Congresswoman. I just have to warn 
everybody, you never know what someone you are going to hire is 
going to do to you after the fact.
    [Laughter.]
    Mr. Clarke. Easily, our county taxpayers are easily losing 
$2 to $5 million a year as we are trying to work through these 
broken processes on projects that we know need to happen, that 
everybody agrees will eventually happen, but we just can't get 
them there.
    Ms. Maloy. Yes. And is it fair to say that on some of the 
projects we have worked on together, there may be one 
personality in an agency that, for ideological reasons, just 
disagrees with what the county is trying to do? And one person 
in an agency can drag their feet and slow a project down for 
years.
    Mr. Clarke. Yes.
    Ms. Maloy. Is that fair? OK. So I have been in a lot of 
hearings. I have been doing policy for a long time, and I 
always hear from agencies we are expected to do more with less. 
They want us to do more with less. We can't fill our positions, 
we don't have enough people. I would like to see agencies do 
less with less.
    And thank you, Mr. Neiman, for reminding us that the Forest 
Service has a mission, and it is a very targeted mission. And 
what I see is them doing a lot of things that are not that 
mission, but they can't fill the positions that are focused on 
watersheds and production.
    And so, Eric, would you unpack for us a little bit, either 
with the Northern Corridor or with the habitat conservation 
plan, how many people at those agencies you have to work with 
to do something that everyone agrees is a good idea and is 
eventually going to happen?
    Mr. Clarke. Yes, thank you for that question.
    Ms. Maloy. You are welcome.
    Mr. Clarke. So those of us that are boots on the ground in 
these situations, we work every day with our Federal partners. 
And they want to be our Federal partners, right? These are 
people that are living in our communities, that are doing work 
that they love, that are trying to help stuff get better.
    And so when we put together a land use application, we go 
into them and we say, hey, we need a new road. How are we going 
to make this a win-win? Or we need a new water project, how do 
we do that? We are interacting with the whole team, and we are 
doing it regularly, consistently, and we are having some back-
and-forth and working through our disagreements, and that could 
be a great process. It should be a great process. That is how 
land management should be, where the local people are coming in 
and talking to the Federal people, and we are working through 
those.
    But then what happens is we will get a local person to 
write something up on their desk, and then it goes to a desk in 
Salt Lake, and then it goes to a desk in Denver, and then it 
goes to a desk in Washington, D.C. And before it trickles back 
to Denver, to Salt Lake, to our desk, we have lost a year and a 
half, and it all changes in that time.
    And so then the boots on the ground, great Federal 
employees that are just wanting to get stuff done, are pulling 
their hair out because they are tired of us calling them and 
saying, ``Why isn't anything happening,'' and then it gets back 
to them and it is different than the good thing that they put 
together and proposed be done.
    Ms. Maloy. Thank you. That is the important thing I wanted 
to get out of this hearing.
    And I am almost out of time, so I just want to put a fine 
point on this because we have had a lot of talk on both sides 
about Federal funding and do we need more or do we need less. 
And I agree with our friend next to you that it needs to be 
targeted. It needs to be focused on the agency's mission.
    And we are Congress. We control the purse strings. So right 
now we have got an administration that is trying to show where 
money is being spent well, where it is not being spent well. 
And I would just remind everyone to ignore the hysteria and 
focus on the balance of power. We have an oversight obligation, 
and we are doing it here. Thank you all for being part of it.
    And with that I am out of time and I yield back.
    Mr. Tiffany. The gentlelady yields. I now recognize Ms. 
Randall for 5 minutes.
    Welcome.
    Ms. Randall. Thank you so much, Mr. Chair. It is a delight 
to be here in this Subcommittee to have a, you know, good 
discussion about Federal lands management.
    I have the great honor of representing Washington State's 
6th district, which is most of the Olympic Peninsula and a 
little bit of the City of Tacoma. And in the peninsula we are 
lucky to have the Olympic National Park, a park that spans 
922,651 acres and includes 95 percent designated wilderness. 
And surrounding the park we also have the Olympic National 
Forest, Federal forest land.
    You know, we are really lucky in Washington to have this 
unique ecosystem in our backyards and, you know, many people 
who have lived there for generations and generations, including 
the usual and accustomed land of 12 federally recognized Tribes 
who have stewarded it since time immemorial and many folks who 
choose to move to the beautiful Pacific Northwest because of 
this unique place.
    I will never forget one of my first canvassing experiences 
as a State senate hopeful when I knocked on the door of a 
Republican woman who said, ``Oh, don't waste your time with me, 
you know, I am not going to vote for you.'' And then I asked 
her what she cared about, and she said protecting the waters 
that are home to the orca whale in Washington State. And that 
really exemplifies to me how bipartisan the protection of our 
unique ecosystem is in Washington's 6th.
    You know, one of the things that is special about this 
place is how many ways folks have to access the lands. Folks 
hike and camp, you know, they hunt and fish. And science 
happens in the forests and in the waters, you know, of the Hoh 
River, and Lake Quinault, and in the national park, and along 
the Pacific Coast. It is also an incredible boon to our economy 
to attract folks out to visit this special place.
    Mr. Gibbs, the outdoor recreation economy accounted for 
$639.5 billion in 2023 nationwide. We know that parks and 
public lands are centerpieces of this business, and that means 
jobs and opportunities for communities, especially communities 
like mine. Could you talk about the role you have seen public 
lands play in the outdoor recreation economy in Colorado, and 
how selling off public lands to corporations or shutting down 
our access to recreation in order to create more resource 
extraction might impact it?
    Mr. Gibbs. Yes, yes. Thank you, Representative. And I was 
just thinking what a beautiful location that you represent. I 
would love to visit that area sometime.
    In Colorado we are also really blessed with just amazing, 
beautiful outdoor spaces and vistas and rivers. We are also 
blessed with amazing outdoor recreation opportunities. I would 
argue that we have some of the best--or the best--places to go 
skiing, and to hunt and fish, to go rafting with your friends 
and family and so forth. And outdoor recreation is $36.5 
billion to our State's GDP, so it is significant. And, you 
know, I am here in Washington, D.C., and I would argue anyone 
to the back of me, I would ask them, you know, what do you 
think of when you think of Colorado? Many people think of the 
world-class recreational opportunities.
    And I think it is really important to note that in Colorado 
we work hard to find define a balance. We can be the fourth-
largest oil and gas producing State, while at the same time 
having the best skiing opportunities, while we also have some 
of the best mountain biking opportunities, and working hard to 
find a balance.
    We also have what is called our outdoor regional 
partnerships. Mr. Canterbury and I really agree on there is one 
particular location in his community called Envision Chaffee 
County, where we work hard to bring the ranching community 
together along with the mountain bikers, along with the 
firefighters and all different user groups to try to find that 
sweet spot because it is not them or oil and gas or recreation. 
It is recreation and it is preservation and it is conservation 
and it is supporting our wildlife. So it is an all-the-above 
approach that we work really hard in Colorado to strive for. 
Thanks.
    Mr. Stauber. Don't forget the timber.
    Mr. Gibbs. And the timber industry plays an important role, 
too.
    [Laughter.]
    Ms. Randall. Thank you, Mr. Gibbs.
    Mr. Chair, I yield back.
    Mr. Tiffany. The gentlelady yields. I now recognize the 
Vice Chair of the Subcommittee, Mr. Kennedy, for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Kennedy. Thank you, Chairman Tiffany, and I am honored 
to work with you as the Vice Chair. Thanks for that 
opportunity. And thanks to the witnesses, particularly the 
Honorable Clarke.
    Mr. Clarke, thanks for being with us and tolerating your 
former employee's prosecutorial questions that she has. I am I 
am looking forward to actually working with all of you to make 
sure that we revitalize and restore multiple use of Federal 
lands together. I think we can do that.
    The Biden administration has ignored Utah's needs and 
neglected their duties to keep Federal lands open to the 
public. By limiting Utah's resources, the Biden administration 
artificially limits the State's economic growth and has limited 
the opportunity for housing and jobs for young Utah families. 
The youngest State in the union is Utah, and we are supportive 
of using these lands that these young families can have an 
opportunity to grow.
    In addition, I refuse to allow the Federal Government to 
neglect Utah lands any longer, and I am looking forward to 
working with the Trump administration to find solutions to 
bring much-needed relief to struggling Utahns, particularly in 
our rural communities. And so Mr. Clarke, I had a question for 
you in that regard because you know very well the Northern 
Corridor.
    And thanks for your written testimony. It details a lot of 
what has happened in the Northern Corridor in Washington 
County. It has been negotiated in good faith under Trump and 
mandated by Congress, and this happened despite the county's 
extreme efforts to secure additional protections from the 
Mojave Desert tortoise. And I am committed to working with the 
Utah delegation and the Trump administration to construct the 
highway and boost Washington County's economy.
    How did the Biden administration's decision to refuse the 
Northern Corridor affect the locals, tourists, and the Mojave 
Desert tortoise is my first question.
    Mr. Clarke. Thank you, Mr. Vice Chair, and I apologize if I 
slip and refer to you as senator, though, because the last time 
we time we did this, you were in the State Senate.
    It harms all three. When we can't build infrastructure in 
rapid-growing area that harms quality of life, it harms the 
ability for tourism to continue to flourish, and the regular 
residents.
    But the fact that we went so far above and beyond where, 
where Congress had already said, ``You are going to get a road 
there,'' but we still mitigated for it under the Endangered 
Species Act in order to prevent a lawsuit. We went so far above 
and beyond and protected thousands of acres of desert tortoise 
habitat. Then to have that taken away just felt like a slap in 
the face to us.
    Mr. Kennedy. In your testimony, your written testimony, 
even as to the tortoise you mentioned that 8 to 1 or even 10 to 
1 tortoises would suffer as a result of the Biden 
administration's decision. Can you expand a little bit on that?
    Mr. Clarke. Yes. So tortoises are a unique endangered 
species in that they don't move fast. And so we can put a road 
through tortoise habitat, we can clear the tortoises, we can 
put in tortoise culverts. They are burrowing animals. And so we 
can put a road through habitat with some impact, but really a 
pretty minimal impact. And that is what we proposed to do, was 
put a road through an area, and then we offset that with 7,000 
acres of protected area, half of which was developable.
    Now, that developable 3,500 acres, if that gets bulldozed 
and houses go there, that is not the same thing as having 
culverts under a road. That is permanently taking away the 
habitat.
    Mr. Kennedy. Yes. Thank you for that explanation.
    I will yield the rest of my time to my extremely 
outstanding colleague, Congresswoman Maloy, who has some 
additional questions.
    Ms. Maloy. I am abusing my authority like I always do in 
your Subcommittee, Mr. Chairman, and I appreciate your patience 
with me.
    Mr. Clarke, one more question is probably all I have time 
for, but one of the things I wanted to point out at the end the 
end of my time and ran out of time for is that, in the case of 
the Northern Corridor or the Habitat Conservation Plan, who 
pays for your time?
    Mr. Clarke. Our county taxpayers.
    Ms. Maloy. And who pays for the time of the people who work 
at the Habitat Conservation Plan?
    Mr. Clarke. Also county taxpayers. We have a big team, 
including biologists, that are all county employees.
    Ms. Maloy. And who pays for the time of the county 
commissioners who have been negotiating this?
    Mr. Clarke. Also county taxpayers.
    Ms. Maloy. And who is paying for the time of all the 
Federal people who are dragging their feet and making it take 
longer?
    Mr. Clarke. And that is all of us as a country.
    Ms. Maloy. So we are talking about a road. We know how to 
design it. We know how to make it tortoise-friendly. But we 
have got people who are applying for a permit, people who are 
slowing down the permit, and the taxpayers are paying all of 
them. So when we talk about how we could do less with less, 
this is what I am talking about. We could design a road, make 
it environmentally friendly, and mitigate for any impact to 
tortoises in a small fraction of the time that it has taken, 
and with a small fraction of the taxpayer dollars spent that it 
is taken.
    And so it is sort of a charade we are playing to pretend 
that all of these processes we are going through are doing 
anything good for tortoises or for the taxpayers. You have got 
8 seconds if you want to respond to that.
    Mr. Clarke. I couldn't agree more that so many resources 
are wasted and so many good things are prevented from being put 
into place because we can't get projects done.
    And I could make any ask, anything that Congress can do to 
help cut through that tape, and not just impose time limits or 
reduce things, but actually reduce the bureaucracy so that we 
can get stuff done, is going to help those of us that have to 
get things done on the ground able to accomplish things.
    Ms. Maloy. Thank you.
    Mr. Clarke. Thank you.
    Ms. Maloy. And thank you for yielding me your time, I 
appreciate it.
    Mr. Tiffany. The Utah delegation yields.
    [Laughter.]
    Mr. Tiffany. I now recognize the gentlelady from Wyoming.
    Ms. Hageman. Thank you. Lest we forget, the 2001 Clinton 
roadless rule denied access, management, and use to 58.5 
million acres of Forest Service lands. It was the largest 
rulemaking in U.S. history at the time. And since then we have 
watched as our forests have been decimated because of a lack of 
active management.
    Global warming and climate change are nothing but a 
scapegoat to cover up the true impact of the Democrats' and 
radical enviros failed land management policies. In fact, 
Colorado is ground zero for the beetle outbreak, which occurred 
because of the 1997 blowdown in the Routt National Forest that 
took down 13,000 acres of trees in one night. That beetle 
outbreak then spread throughout the entire interior West not 
because of global warming, not because of climate change, but 
because the Forest Service refused to allow treatment or 
harvesting in those 13,000 acres. And our national forests have 
been destroyed since that time.
    The Biden administration's restrictive Federal land 
policies have significantly impacted the timber industry, 
particularly in Wyoming where Neiman Enterprises is one of the 
largest sawmill operators. Forest management has led to 
worsening wildfire risks, as well as insect infestations which 
threaten both timber supply and forest health.
    The U.S. Forest Service failed to meet its timber harvest 
targets by 260 million board feet in Fiscal Year 2024, and 
reduced targets for future years. Mr. Neiman, how has this 
affected sawmill infrastructure in timber-dependent communities 
in Wyoming?
    Mr. Neiman. I will start and go back to that we originally 
had three sawmills in the Black Hills. We shut one down in Hill 
City, South Dakota, laid off 125 employees. Two years ago we 
laid off one shift at Hulett, it went from two shifts to one 
shift, laid off about 40 or 50 employees. Spearfish a year ago 
this spring laid off 60, 70 employees at Spearfish, South 
Dakota. Along with that we have laid off about 15 logging crews 
that spread throughout the hills from a lot of different 
communities throughout the area. So we have reduced our 
employment tremendously.
    When you go from two shifts cutting Ponderosa to one shift, 
your costs go up. And then you compound that with all of the 
inflation costs that have happened, and fuel costs, it puts you 
in a real precarious position. So we are hanging on by a thread 
with less than 1 year under contract right now, figuring out 
what is our next move.
    I hope we see some really significant changes that puts us 
back on track. So we hope that we can see the light of day here 
fairly soon so we can see some hope. I am a third generation, 
and I hope to pass it on to the fourth and maybe the fifth 
generation. If we don't see that light, then I will be making 
more restrictions and shut down. And the impact that has on 
communities is tough.
    Ms. Hageman. These policies have horrific impacts upon 
forest health, upon our environment, upon our watersheds, but 
they also have horrific impacts on our communities, taking away 
our jobs.
    Since the year 2000 over 1,500 sawmills have shut down due 
to declining timber sales. What policies should Congress pursue 
to restore multiple use timber harvesting and prevent further 
economic losses in Wyoming's forestry sector?
    Mr. Neiman. Well, I would start, we had Congressman 
Westerman in here a few minutes ago, I would start by passing 
the bill that he has proposed, the----
    Ms. Hageman. Healthy forests?
    Mr. Neiman. Yes, yes. I think that would be a good start.
    But we are going to need other actions along with his bill. 
And I know Senator Thune, Senator Barrasso are working on some 
amendments that should be helpful. But it is going to take a 
clear change of direction to get this shape back up.
    Ms. Hageman. You know, one of the things that bothers me so 
much about Washington, D.C., and Representative Maloy has 
touched on it a couple of times here, we are $36 trillion in 
debt in this country. What that means is we have spent massive 
amounts of money with deficit spending. Deficit spending in and 
of itself is bad, but it also covers up a lot of really bad 
policies.
    It is wonderful to have flowery language about protecting 
recreation and the Belknap and the little flower here, and I 
want to see a tortoise there. It is so fine and dandy to say 
all of that. But when you destroy your communities and destroy 
your tax base, you become incapable of actually protecting the 
very environment you profess to love.
    There has to be a balance in the way that we manage these 
resources. These catastrophic forest fires are spewing more 
carbon into the atmosphere than every single car in the entire 
country in a matter of months. What we saw in California is an 
absolute tragedy beyond anyone in this room's imagination, and 
it is because of failed land use policy and a refusal of people 
to recognize global warming and climate change, and screaming 
that at the top of your lungs isn't going to do a damn thing to 
fix any of this.
    It is imperative that we manage these resources for the 
best interests of the American citizens. I appreciate you being 
here and being willing to talk about common-sense solutions and 
why we must change course if we are going to protect and 
preserve these resources into the long-distant future.
    Thank you, and with that I yield back.
    Mr. Tiffany. The gentlelady's time has expired. I am going 
to take my 5 minutes for questioning now.
    By the way, I think that is the Fix Our Forests Act that 
you might have been referring to, Mr. Neiman.
    Mr. Clarke, you talked about--it was either a community or 
your family's mill that closed. Tell us a little bit about that 
mill closing and why it closed.
    Mr. Clarke. So it was a community mill in Escalante, and it 
closed around the 1990s, when you were talking about how there 
was a lot of things that happened. And in my personal 
experience, I spent a summer working for the Forest Service on 
a trail crew and I remember having a conversation with the 
forester, who was kind of over timber permits at that time. And 
I remember I definitely treated her like I assumed that she 
was, I am definitely on the right side of the spectrum, I 
treated her like she was not on my side of the spectrum.
    And she stopped me 1 day and she said, ``Look, I am a 
forester. Like, I want to have healthy forests. You have got to 
understand that that is what I am going for.'' And so she and I 
had a conversation about the forest. And what would happen is a 
Utah-based environmental group would file a lawsuit every time 
they issued a timber permit, and it made it impossible for a 
sawmill in a pretty remote area to have what they needed.
    Mr. Tiffany. So as a result of those lawsuits? That was a 
big part of why that mill had to close?
    Mr. Clarke. Yes.
    Mr. Tiffany. Yes. Are there more mills in Utah today than 
there were 20 years ago?
    Mr. Clarke. Definitely not.
    Mr. Tiffany. Significantly less?
    Mr. Clarke. Significantly less.
    Mr. Tiffany. You said something about you would want to 
change something in regards to judicial review. What is that 
specific item? I think you said it in your testimony. What is 
that item that you would like to see changed?
    Mr. Clarke. So we were the victims of an out-of-court 
settlement where, had the Biden administration just stepped 
away and let us defend an action, we would have been fine. But 
the environmental groups filed a lawsuit challenging something 
that the Trump administration had approved, and then there was 
an out-of-court settlement that wasn't based on anything 
important.
    And so what we need is more certainty that sue-and-settle 
thing harms us.
    Mr. Tiffany. So it was a sue-and-settle.
    Mr. Clarke. Yes.
    Mr. Tiffany. And it has been used time after time, hasn't 
it, to stop projects, to stop proper management in the Western 
States in particular, is that right?
    Mr. Clarke. And in particular, projects that have gone 
through the whole process and have been greenlighted finally, 
and then they get this sue-and-settle that isn't based in the 
facts, it is just based on the politics.
    Mr. Tiffany. Yes, thank you.
    Mr. Canterbury, earlier you had a number of questions from 
Representative Neguse and he tried to get this Committee to 
believe that the first thing you believe in is that there needs 
to be an increase in funding, they call it ``resources'' here 
in Washington, D.C., there needs to be more resources. That is 
called greenbacks by most people. Is it necessary to increase 
the budget by the Bureau of Land Management to get more money 
to you, or could there be money that could simply be redirected 
and get it to the ground in order to be able to get the permits 
that you need?
    Mr. Canterbury. So if I may, and I will try not to take too 
much time, if we just back up in history, when I used to walk 
into the agency office there would be three people in the 
office that manage the entirety of the resources and the lands 
that are being managed today with 300 to 400 people. Those 
three people could talk to us and sit down and figure out what 
was the best.
    We cannot regulate conservation. Conservation comes from 
those of us that are on the land.
    Mr. Tiffany. Yes. So in other words, if the dollars are 
spent appropriately, the permitting process can be completed 
for grazers like yourself. Is that correct?
    Mr. Canterbury. It can be completed. You can help simplify 
that permitting process.
    Mr. Tiffany. Mr. Neiman, would you rather have us change 
regulations and permitting, those type of things, or would you 
like the Federal Government to give you more money?
    Mr. Neiman. The first, for sure. Less regulation. I don't 
want more money. Businesses should stand on their own if it is 
given a fair chance. So regulation is helping destroy us.
    Mr. Tiffany. How many families lost jobs as a result of the 
reduction in some of your mills and the mill closures? How many 
families have lost jobs?
    Mr. Neiman. Directly related to us, along with the 
independent contractors, someplace between 150 and 200 families 
lost their jobs. If I go back to what happened in the 1990s, I 
think it was like 26,000 or 30,000 jobs were lost. It was a 
huge amount.
    Mr. Tiffany. Twenty-six to thirty thousand jobs where?
    Mr. Neiman. That was throughout the West.
    Mr. Tiffany. Throughout the West. And are Americans more 
likely to buy a 2x4, or you name whatever wood product, are 
they more likely to buy that from an American company these 
days, than they were 40 years ago?
    Mr. Neiman. I am seeing a strong trend to lean back to 
support buying American, buy from the U.S. I am feeling that.
    Mr. Tiffany. Compared to 40 years ago, when you look at 
today with the mill closures that we have had across the United 
States, are you more likely to buy a 2x4 that has been made in 
the United States today than you were 40 years ago, when we had 
a lot more mills?
    Mr. Neiman. Yes.
    Mr. Tiffany. We were more likely to have it 40 years ago 
that it might have been made in America. Is that correct?
    Mr. Neiman. Yes.
    Mr. Tiffany. Yes, and it would really be nice to get back 
to that time, wouldn't it?
    Mr. Neiman. Yes.
    Mr. Tiffany. Yes. I have a whole bunch more questions, but, 
you know, I listen to this from the Ranking Member when he 
talked about Humboldt County out in California and that, boy, 
things are just going to fall apart as a result of that.
    Are you completely dependent on the Federal Government? Is 
that what is being said here when you hear a statement like 
that? I don't think anyone should want to be put in that 
position. And this conjecture that we may not be able to 
complete projects, let's see if those projects actually do not 
happen because, I can tell you, the Trump administration is 
going to make sure that money gets to those frontline 
communities, rather than funding that 400 people that it now 
takes to get a grazing permit out. Let's do it in an effective, 
efficient manner that reflects the wants and needs of the 
American people.
    So with that I conclude my questioning, and I want to thank 
all the witnesses for their valuable testimony.
    Members of the Subcommittee may have some additional 
questions for you, and we will ask that the witnesses respond 
to those questions in writing. Under Committee Rule 3, members 
of the Subcommittee must submit questions to the Subcommittee 
Clerk by 5 p.m. on Friday, February 14, 2025. The hearing 
record will be held open for 10 business days for those 
responses.
    If there is no further business, without objection, the 
Subcommittee on Federal Lands stands adjourned.

    [Whereupon, at 3:53 p.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.]

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