[House Hearing, 119 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]


                   A DECADE LATER: ASSESSING THE LEGACY AND   
                    IMPACT OF THE FRANK LAUTENBERG CHEM-
                    ICAL SAFETY FOR THE 21ST CENTURY ACT

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

                      SUBCOMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENT

                                 OF THE

                    COMMITTEE ON ENERGY AND COMMERCE
                        HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS

                             FIRST SESSION

                               __________

                            JANUARY 22, 2025

                               __________

                            Serial No. 119-1
                            
[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]                            


     Published for the use of the Committee on Energy and Commerce

                   govinfo.gov/committee/house-energy
                        energycommerce.house.gov
                        
                              __________

                   U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE                    
58-842 PDF                  WASHINGTON : 2025                  
          
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------     
                       
                    COMMITTEE ON ENERGY AND COMMERCE

                        BRETT GUTHRIE, Kentucky
                                 Chairman
ROBERT E. LATTA, Ohio                FRANK PALLONE, Jr., New Jersey
H. MORGAN GRIFFITH, Virginia           Ranking Member
GUS M. BILIRAKIS, Florida            DIANA DeGETTE, Colorado
RICHARD HUDSON, North Carolina       JAN SCHAKOWSKY, Illinois
EARL L. ``BUDDY'' CARTER, Georgia    DORIS O. MATSUI, California
GARY J. PALMER, Alabama              KATHY CASTOR, Florida
NEAL P. DUNN, Florida                PAUL TONKO, New York
DAN CRENSHAW, Texas                  YVETTE D. CLARKE, New York
JOHN JOYCE, Pennsylvania, Vice       RAUL RUIZ, California
    Chairman                         SCOTT H. PETERS, California
RANDY K. WEBER, Sr., Texas           DEBBIE DINGELL, Michigan
RICK W. ALLEN, Georgia               MARC A. VEASEY, Texas
TROY BALDERSON, Ohio                 ROBIN L. KELLY, Illinois
RUSS FULCHER, Idaho                  NANETTE DIAZ BARRAGAN, California
AUGUST PFLUGER, Texas                DARREN SOTO, Florida
DIANA HARSHBARGER, Tennessee         KIM SCHRIER, Washington
MARIANNETTE MILLER-MEEKS, Iowa       LORI TRAHAN, Massachusetts
KAT CAMMACK, Florida                 LIZZIE FLETCHER, Texas
JAY OBERNOLTE, California            ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ, New York
JOHN JAMES, Michigan                 JAKE AUCHINCLOSS, Massachusetts
CLIFF BENTZ, Oregon                  TROY A. CARTER, Louisiana
ERIN HOUCHIN, Indiana                ROBERT MENENDEZ, New Jersey
RUSSELL FRY, South Carolina          KEVIN MULLIN, California
LAUREL M. LEE, Florida               GREG LANDSMAN, Ohio
NICHOLAS A. LANGWORTHY, New York     JENNIFER L. McCLELLAN, Virginia
THOMAS H. KEAN, Jr., New Jersey
MICHAEL A. RULLI, Ohio
GABE EVANS, Colorado
CRAIG A. GOLDMAN, Texas
JULIE FEDORCHAK, North Dakota
                                 ------                                

                           Professional Staff

                     MEGAN JACKSON, Staff Director
                SOPHIE KHANAHMADI, Deputy Staff Director
               TIFFANY GUARASCIO, Minority Staff Director
                      Subcommittee on Environment

                      H. MORGAN GRIFFITH, Virginia
                                 Chairman
DAN CRENSHAW, Texas, Vice Chairman   PAUL TONKO, New York
ROBERT E. LATTA, Ohio                  Ranking Member
EARL L. ``BUDDY'' CARTER, Georgia    JAN SCHAKOWSKY, Illinois
GARY J. PALMER, Alabama              RAUL RUIZ, California
JOHN JOYCE, Pennsylvania             SCOTT H. PETERS, California
RANDY K. WEBER, Sr., Texas           NANETTE DIAZ BARRAGAN, California
AUGUST PFLUGER, Texas                DARREN SOTO, Florida
MARIANNETTE MILLER-MEEKS, Iowa       JAKE AUCHINCLOSS, Massachusetts
LAUREL M. LEE, Florida               TROY A. CARTER, Louisiana
NICHOLAS A. LANGWORTHY, New York     ROBERT MENENDEZ, New Jersey
GABE EVANS, Colorado                 GREG LANDSMAN, Ohio
JULIE FEDORCHAK, North Dakota        FRANK PALLONE, Jr., New Jersey (ex 
BRETT GUTHRIE, Kentucky (ex              officio)
    officio)
                             C O N T E N T S

                              ----------                              
                                                                   Page
Hon. H. Morgan Griffith, a Representative in Congress from the 
  Commonwealth of Virginia, opening statement....................     2
    Prepared statement...........................................     4
Hon. Paul Tonko, a Representative in Congress from the State of 
  New York, opening statement....................................     7
    Prepared statement...........................................     9
Hon. Brett Guthrie, a Representative in Congress from the 
  Commonwealth of Kentucky, opening statement....................    11
    Prepared statement...........................................    12
Hon. Frank Pallone, Jr., a Representative in Congress from the 
  State of New Jersey, opening statement.........................    13
    Prepared statement...........................................    16

                               Witnesses

Chris Jahn, President and Chief Executive Officer, American 
  Chemistry Council..............................................    18
    Prepared statement...........................................    21
    Answers to submitted questions...............................   133
Richard E. Engler, Ph.D., Director of Chemistry, The Acta Group..    27
    Prepared statement...........................................    29
    Answers to submitted questions...............................   138
Geoff Moody, Senior Vice President, Government Relations and 
  Policy, American Fuel & Petrochemical Manufacturers............    47
    Prepared statement...........................................    49
    Answers to submitted questions...............................   147
Maria J, Doa, Ph.D., Senior Director, Chemical Policy, 
  Environmental Defense Fund.....................................    59
    Prepared statement...........................................    61
    Answers to submitted questions...............................   157

                           Submitted Material

Inclusion of the following was approved by unanimous consent.
List of documents submitted for the record.......................   116
Report of the Government Accountability Office, ``EPA Chemical 
  Reviews: Workforce Planning Gaps Contributed to Missed 
  Deadlines,'' February 2023\1\
Report of the Government Accountability Office, ``NEW Chemicals 
  Program: EPA Needs a Systematic Process to Better Manage and 
  Assess Performance,'' January 2025\1\
Letter of January 22, 2025, from Blake Nanney, Director, 
  Government Affairs, American Cleaning Institute, to Mr. 
  Guthrie, et al.................................................   117
Letter of January 22, 2025, from the U.S. Chamber of Commerce to 
  Mr. Guthrie and Mr. Griffith...................................   119
Article of March 7, 2022, ``The Truth about Dangerous Chemicals 
  in Solar Panels,'' Iowa Solar..................................   122

----------

\1\ The report has been retained in committee files and is included in 
the Documents for the Record at https://docs.house.gov/meetings/IF/
IF18/20250122/117835/HHRG-119-IF18-20250122-SD097.pdf.
Article of July 3, 2024, ``PFAS waste from solar panels: `This is 
  something that people in the sector don't like to talk 
  about,''' International Chemical Secretariat...................   126
Report of the Environmental Protection Agency, ``2022 TRI 
  National Analysis,''\1\
Letter of January 22, 2025, from John Reeves, Chief Executive 
  Officer, Microporous, to Mr. Guthrie and Mr. Pallone...........   130

----------

\1\ The report has been retained in committee files and is included in 
the Documents for the Record at https://docs.house.gov/meetings/IF/
IF18/20250122/117835/HHRG-119-IF18-20250122-SD097.pdf.

 
A DECADE LATER: ASSESSING THE LEGACY AND IMPACT OF THE FRANK LAUTENBERG 
                CHEMICAL SAFETY FOR THE 21ST CENTURY ACT

                              ----------                              


                      WEDNESDAY, JANUARY 22, 2025

                  House of Representatives,
                       Subcommittee on Environment,
                          Committee on Energy and Commerce,
                                                    Washington, DC.
    The subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 10:30 a.m., in 
the John D. Dingell Room 2123, Rayburn House Office Building, 
Hon. H. Morgan Griffith (chairman of the subcommittee) 
presiding.
    Members present: Representatives Griffith, Crenshaw, Latta, 
Carter, Palmer, Joyce, Weber, Pfluger, Miller-Meeks, Lee, 
Langworthy, Evans, Fedorchak, Guthrie (ex officio), Tonko 
(subcommittee ranking member), Schakowsky, Ruiz, Peters, 
Barragan, Soto, Auchincloss, Carter, Menendez, Landsman, and 
Pallone (ex officio).
    Also present: Representative Harshbarger.
    Staff present: Ansley Boylan Director of Operations; 
Marjorie Connell, Director of Archives; Jessica Donlon, General 
Counsel; Sydney Greene, Director of Finance and Logistics; 
Christen Harsha, Senior Counsel; Calvin Huggins, Clerk; Megan 
Jackson, Staff Director; Adam Joseph, Digital Director; Daniel 
Kelly, Press Secretary; Sophie Khanahmadi, Deputy Staff 
Director; Chris Krepich, Senior Communication Advisor; Brayden 
Lacefield, Special Assistant; Joel Miller, Chief Counsel; Ben 
Mullaney, Press Secretary; Kaitlyn Peterson, Policy Assistant; 
Seth Ricketts, Special Assistant; Jackson Rudden, Staff 
Assistant; Chris Sarley, Member Services/Stakeholder Director; 
Dray Thorne, Director of Information Technology; Jake Tyner, 
Chief Counsel; Timia Crisp, Minority Professional Staff Member; 
Waverly Gordon, Minority Deputy Staff Director and General 
Counsel; Tiffany Guarascio, Minority Staff Director; Anthony 
Gutierrez, Minority Professional Staff Member; Caitlin 
Haberman, Minority Staff Director, Environment; Perry Hamilton, 
Minority Member Services and Outreach Manager; Mackenzie Kuhl, 
Minority Digital Manager; Caroline Rinker, Minority Press 
Assistant; Emma Roehrig, Minority Staff Assistant; and Kylea 
Rogers, Minority Policy Analyst.
    Mr. Griffith. The subcommittee will come to order, and I 
recognize myself for an opening statement.

OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. H. MORGAN GRIFFITH, A REPRESENTATIVE 
         IN CONGRESS FROM THE COMMONWEALTH OF VIRGINIA

    Welcome. I am really looking forward to working with you, 
Ranking Member Tonko, as we start this adventure. I am hopeful 
we can work together on some bipartisan legislation going 
through the subcommittee.
    Today is not only my first hearing as chair of this 
subcommittee, but it is the first subcommittee hearing of the 
Energy and Commerce Committee for the start of the 119th 
Congress.
    The American people have spoken loud and clear. They have 
had enough of rising prices and the regulatory burden that 
threatens energy reliability, reduces American competitiveness, 
and in some cases makes for a stagnant economy.
    In general, I have long believed Congress needs to get back 
into the practice of passing regular authorizations. As chair 
of this subcommittee it is my goal to modernize some of our 
major environmental laws and enable predictable, commonsense 
regulation. I am glad we have hit the ground running with this 
hearing, and hope that we have signaled our commitment to dig 
into the statutory language to find out where we can make the 
law work better for all interested parties.
    To that end, today's hearing will examine the Frank 
Lautenberg Chemical Safety for the 21st Century Act, or the 
Lautenberg Act. Nearly 10 years ago, members of this committee 
worked tirelessly to develop the Lautenberg Act, to reform the 
Toxic Substances Control Act, often referred to as TSCA. TSCA 
governs the Environmental Protection Agency, or EPA's 
regulation of new and existing chemicals in the chain of 
commerce for products containing those chemicals. This was no 
easy task.
    The Lautenberg Act made the most significant changes to 
TSCA since it became law in 1976. The Lautenberg Act enjoyed 
strong bipartisan support in this committee before becoming law 
in 2016, and I was proud to be a part of that process. However, 
nearly 10 years have passed since the Lautenberg Act's passage. 
Both Democrat and Republican administrations at EPA have had 
the opportunity to implement the Act's procedures for 
collecting new information on chemicals, reviewing new 
chemicals, and for regulating those that the EPA determines 
pose an unreasonable risk. And each administration, as we will 
hear today, has encountered a number of challenges in 
implementing the Act.
    In 2023 the Government Accountability Office found that, 
between 2017 and 2022, EPA completed only 10 percent of the 
premanufactured chemical reviews within the time limit laid out 
in the Lautenberg Act. With the 10-year anniversary of the 
Lautenberg Act's passage quickly approaching, today's hearing 
will provide us an opportunity to learn more about what is 
working and what is not working at the EPA's Office of 
Pollution Prevention and Toxics.
    And it is important that we make the most of this 
opportunity to create that record. Among other things, TSCA, as 
amended by the Lautenberg Act, governs the EPA's process for 
reviewing new chemicals or in allowing new uses for existing 
chemicals before those products can be sold to consumers in the 
United States.
    Chemicals are part of manufacturing and methods and 
products that we depend on for our everyday life. New chemicals 
utilized in a safe manner not only lead to new products that 
enhance our quality of life but are also necessary for 
addressing crucial challenges like harnessing energy resources 
and treating disease.
    Similarly, our economic competitiveness and national 
security depend on our ability to innovate and bring new 
technologies to market safely and efficiently. As chemicals are 
part of nearly every product, and new chemistries are essential 
to develop better products, the TSCA regulatory scheme has 
profound impact across nearly every sector of our economy. New 
chemicals and new uses for existing chemicals must undergo EPA 
review. If these reviews don't take place in a timely manner, 
our international competitors could gain an edge, and more 
production would likely shift overseas.
    We are fortunate to have a panel of experts joining us to 
help pinpoint shortcomings with our current regulatory 
mechanisms and to discuss potential opportunities for reform.
    Today we will hear from Mr. Chris Jahn, president and CEO 
of the American Chemistry Council, also known as the ACC--of 
course, where I come from, that is the Atlantic Coast 
Conference. The ACC serves as an organization of chemical 
companies who often engage in EPA's regulatory process, 
including new chemical reviews.
    Also joining us is Mr. Geoff Moody, the vice president of 
government relations for the American Fuel & Petrochemical 
Manufacturers. He will share the experiences of refiners and 
manufacturers that comply with TSCA to make the products we 
depend on every day.
    We are also glad to have Dr. Richard Engler. Prior to his 
current role as director of chemistry at the Acta Group, Dr. 
Engler served at the Environmental Protection Agency for 17 
years, and will be able to share more about the agency's staff 
experience in implementing the Act.
    Additionally, Dr. Maria Doa, the senior director of 
chemical policy at the Environmental Defense Fund, will offer 
testimony. Before joining the Environmental Defense Fund in 
2021, Dr. Doa served at the Environmental Protection Agency for 
30 years, working on chemicals--working on chemical safety and 
TSCA.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Griffith follows:]
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Mr. Griffith. So with that I will yield back and now 
recognize the ranking member of this committee for his first 
time this Congress as ranking member, Mr. Tonko, for his 5-
minute opening statement.

   OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. PAUL TONKO, A REPRESENTATIVE IN 
              CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF NEW YORK

    Mr. Tonko. Well, I appreciate that, Mr. Chair, and let me 
start by congratulating you on becoming chair of this 
subcommittee. I look forward to a sound working relationship 
and being productive as a partnership here to move forward good 
legislation that will be speaking to the needs of the American 
public.
    Mr. Griffith. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Tonko. This subcommittee has awesome responsibilities 
protecting Americans from air pollution, from drinking water 
contaminants, and dangerous chemicals. It is critical to both 
our quality of life and our economy, and I look forward to 
working together in the 119th Congress. Similarly, I would like 
to congratulate full committee Chair Guthrie.
    The Toxic Substances Control Act, or TSCA, is a law that 
most Members of Congress, let alone most Americans, do not 
spend much time thinking about. So I appreciate the opportunity 
at the beginning of this Congress for us to come together and 
learn.
    And I do believe that the reason this law is off people's 
radars is because for the first 40 years of its history it was 
fundamentally broken. America had a very limited and largely 
ineffective national chemical safety program, which is why 
there was a bipartisan impetus to restore the public's trust by 
reforming TSCA to better protect people from both new and 
existing chemicals that pose an unreasonable risk.
    Ranking Member Pallone and I were directly involved in the 
negotiations that led to the Lautenberg Act being enacted 8\1/
2\ years ago, and I hope that our perspectives on that 
experience may help inform the committee's reexamination of the 
law today.
    Let me start by saying that the effort to reform TSCA was a 
long and difficult process, beginning many years prior to the 
enactment of the Lautenberg Act in 2016. It required a 
considerable amount of Member time, of staff time, and 
committee resources. And despite my opposition to the final 
agreement and retaining some lingering concerns from those 
negotiations, I truly believe that everyone entered into that 
process in good faith, which resulted in a law that has been an 
improvement over the previous status quo.
    One of the reasons that the Lautenberg process was possible 
was because it started with a consensus amongst industry and 
environmental groups that TSCA was in desperate need of reform, 
and I am curious whether we will hear a similar consensus 
today. I am anticipating that everyone will agree that 
implementation of the law has not been perfect, a view that I 
share. However, depending on who you ask, I suspect there will 
be very different examples of how EPA is failing to administer 
the law consistent with the statute.
    I believe the root of many of these implementation 
challenges can be traced back to the first Trump 
administration, which sought to deny EPA the resources and 
personnel needed to make the expanded requirements of the law 
work during those critical early days of implementation. Both 
industry and public health stakeholders will likely agree that 
EPA's Office of Chemical Safety must be provided with adequate 
resources and staff for this law to be successful. And frankly, 
some of the early actions of the new Trump administration are 
not encouraging on this front either.
    But despite some implementation challenges, I fully admit 
that TSCA has had achievements that would not have happened 
absent the Lautenberg Act. Among the five risk management rules 
finalized during the Biden administration, the American people 
are now significantly better protected from exposure to 
asbestos, methylene chloride, and TCE. These are some of the 
worst of the worst chemicals which are known to pose high 
risks, and yet for decades they had remained in commerce with 
few restrictions. In fact, it was not that long ago that any of 
us could have gone to a local hardware store and purchased a 
paint stripper containing methylene chloride, and dozens of 
Americans died because of it, including people who took all the 
recommended precautions and worked in well-ventilated spaces.
    I will not deny that many chemicals play an important role 
in our modern American life. I suspect we might hear about how 
new, innovative chemicals are essential to semiconductor and 
battery manufacturing and industries that I believe are 
critically important to the future competitiveness of the 
American economy. But I also believe that the people who are 
literally closest to these cutting-edge industries, whether it 
is the workers doing the manufacturing or the people living 
next to these facilities, deserve adequate protections. No 
chemical, no matter how essential it is perceived to be, should 
be given a free pass from proper review.
    So, Mr. Chair, I want to stress that I am always open to 
examining how we can improve our Nation's environmental laws on 
a bipartisan basis. However, having lived through the last TSCA 
reform effort, I can say that no one should expect such a big 
legislative task to be easy. The Lautenberg Act required 
significant Member-level commitment and trust building over 
several years to get over the finish line, and it required 
consensus and a willingness to compromise amongst industry and 
environmental advocates. I look forward to hearing from our 
witnesses whether such a consensus exists today, because I 
expect that any effort to significantly reform TSCA will truly 
need it.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Tonko follows:]
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Mr. Tonko. So thank you, Mr. Chair, and with that I yield 
back.
    Mr. Griffith. The gentleman yields back. I now recognize 
officially for the first time the chairman of the full 
committee, Mr. Guthrie, for 5 minutes for his opening 
statement.

 OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. BRETT GUTHRIE, A REPRESENTATIVE IN 
           CONGRESS FROM THE COMMONWEALTH OF KENTUCKY

    Mr. Guthrie. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and Ranking Member 
Tonko, Ranking Member Pallone. I really look forward to working 
with you guys in this area of the jurisdiction of this 
subcommittee as we review regulations and respond to them in a 
responsible manner. And this will be a busy subcommittee this 
Congress, and I am really excited about it.
    And so welcome, our witnesses, for being here today, and my 
colleagues.
    In this morning's hearing we will examine the 
implementation and impact of the Frank R. Lautenberg Chemical 
Safety for the 21st Century Act. This bipartisan legislation, 
which became law in 2016, provided for the only major 
amendments to the Toxic Substances Control Act, or TSCA, since 
the law was enacted in 1976. TSCA is a unique statute. It 
provides the U.S. Environmental Agency--Protection Agency, 
EPA--with broad authority to regulate the entire chain of 
commerce if it finds that a chemical substance poses an 
unreasonable risk. But it isn't working.
    So nearly a decade ago, this committee worked together to 
pass the bipartisan Lautenberg Act. Unfortunately, it is still 
not working, at least not how Congress intended. The EPA's 
flawed decision making process has consequently inhibited 
American innovation and our ability to complete--compete in the 
global market.
    This morning's hearing is also timely. Today the committee 
will receive a report from the Government Accountability Office 
requested last Congress by former Chair McMorris Rodgers and 
Senator Capito, now chair of the Senate Environmental and 
Public Works Committee, that assesses the EPA's new chemical 
review process.
    In addition, section 26 of the Lautenberg Act, EPA's 
authority to collect fees from chemical manufacturing and 
processors to defray certain costs of administrating--
administering the TSCA programs, will expire June of 2026. With 
that in mind, both today's discussion and the GAO report will 
provide this committee yet again with the opportunity to 
develop a bipartisan solution to unleash American innovation.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Guthrie follows:]
    [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Mr. Guthrie. I look forward to hearing from the witnesses, 
and I will yield the balance of my time to the Vice Chair of 
the committee, Mr. Crenshaw of Texas.
    Mr. Crenshaw. Thank you, Chairman Guthrie. Thank you, 
Chairman Griffith, for holding this important hearing. And 
thank you to all our witnesses for being here.
    I just want to start off by noting how important chemicals 
are to a strong economy, essential in making all of the 
products that are necessary for our modern life in the 21st 
century. Yet even the word ``chemicals'' elicits a pretty 
visceral negative reaction from many. But we have to remember 
that we have to put emotions aside and actually acknowledge 
that chemicals play an indispensable role in creating 
everything from lifesaving medical devices to computers and 
smart phones and cutting-edge military platforms.
    The domestic chemical industry supports hundreds of 
thousands of high-paying jobs. It generates hundreds of 
billions of dollars in economic activity. And unfortunately, 
the prior administration poorly implemented chemical 
regulations under the Toxic Substances Control Act, putting all 
of this at risk. Impractical, duplicative, or overburdensome 
regulations for existing chemicals threaten critical supply 
chains for the products that we all know and rely upon every 
single day.
    Additionally, the program that allows companies to bring 
innovative, safer, and greener chemicals to market has been 
utterly mismanaged over the past 4 years. Nobody opposes 
pragmatic regulations, but the EPA, under the previous 
administration, regularly delayed approval for new chemicals 
beyond when they were legally obligated to do so. And these 
delays, well, they threaten American leadership on chemical 
research and development, and they impose massive costs on the 
American economy.
    Luckily, we have an incredible opportunity on this 
committee to address these issues and work with the new 
administration to ensure America continues to be a thriving 
economic powerhouse and a leader in industrial innovation.
    I yield back.
    Mr. Griffith. The gentleman yields back. I now recognize 
the ranking member of the full committee, Mr. Pallone, for his 
5-minute opening statement.

OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. FRANK PALLONE, Jr., A REPRESENTATIVE 
            IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF NEW JERSEY

    Mr. Pallone. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Today the committee is holding its first hearing of the 
Congress, two days after President Trump was inaugurated.
    On day one, Trump announced his intention to withdraw the 
United States from the Paris Climate Accord, signed an order 
that directly questions the existence of climate change, and 
illegally directed Federal agencies to bypass the law and 
withhold critical infrastructure and climate investments that 
people across the country are counting on. And ultimately, the 
American people will be left to foot the bill for all these 
Executive orders with higher energy bills, dirtier air, sicker 
communities, lost jobs, a weakened economy, and a worse-off 
climate to pass on to future generations.
    Now, today we are actually examining the legacy of the 
Frank R. Lautenberg Chemical Safety for the 21st Century Act, 
and the law received strong bipartisan support back in 2016 and 
was named after New Jersey's late Senator Lautenberg. He was a 
champion of the right to know, the idea that if you give people 
information, then they are empowered themselves to protect 
their own safety. And the law updated and modernized the Toxic 
Substances Control Act, otherwise known as TSCA, for the first 
time in 40 years.
    Since its passage, I have worked to ensure that TSCA lives 
up to Senator Lautenberg's commitment to protecting Americans 
from dangerous chemicals, particularly children, pregnant 
women, workers, and environmental justice communities. And a 
key goal of the Lautenberg Act was to finally give the 
Environmental Protection Agency the ability to address the 
threats of harmful chemicals on the market. The original TSCA 
simply did not give EPA the tools it needed to address risks, 
even though we had a long--we had long known of the dangers of 
chemicals like asbestos. After decades of a broken chemical 
safety law and years of negotiation, Congress enacted the 
Lautenberg Act.
    Now, thanks to the updated law, EPA is required to make an 
affirmative determination that a chemical is safe before it can 
enter commerce, and this action stems the flow of toxic 
chemicals into people's homes. EPA is also required to review 
and manage harmful chemicals already on the market, finally 
providing EPA the ability to ban dangerous chemicals that have 
harmed far too many people.
    Now, despite the overwhelming bipartisan support and clear 
direction from Congress, it quickly became clear that the first 
Trump EPA was not interested in implementing a strong Federal 
chemical program. The Trump EPA's actions underestimated 
chemical risks, especially for workers and overburdened 
communities; delayed health protective rules; and exerted undue 
political influence on the regulatory process.
    But fortunately, over the last 4 years the EPA has worked 
to get back on track. The Biden EPA recommended to--went back 
to scientific integrity as a basis for its actions and its 
critical mission to protect public health and the environment. 
And the Biden EPA conducted a second look at the flawed risk 
evaluations of the Trump administration, implementing TSCA as 
intended and addressing disproportionate risks for vulnerable 
populations. Under Biden's leadership, EPA was finally able to 
ban the use of known dangerous chemicals like new uses of 
asbestos, methylene chloride, and TCE. And EPA is also well on 
its way to properly addressing legacy uses of asbestos.
    Now, the EPA's TSCA office has also played a critical role 
in addressing the rampant PFAS contamination across the Nation, 
and I was pleased to see EPA take actions to require more 
testing and reporting--eliminating exemptions and restricting 
certain legacy PFAS. But despite these significant improvements 
during the Biden administration, the TSCA office still faces 
its fair share of challenges. And I am concerned that this 
hard-fraught--this progress that we had under the Biden 
administration is going to be stifled under the new Trump 
administration, which did not have a great record 4 years ago 
and has already shown itself to be more interested in special 
corporate interests than the health of American families, 
workers, and communities.
    Now, we have seen how vulnerable communities bear the brunt 
of a weak chemical safety office. We have heard the tragic 
stories of Americans gone too soon because of lax or 
nonexistent chemical regulations. And we cannot afford to go 
back. If my Republican colleagues want to explore the 
possibility of a reauthorization of TSCA, we must work to 
strengthen it to ensure that we protect the health of all 
Americans, especially our most vulnerable, and at the same time 
fostering innovation.
    But as we examine the implementation of the Lautenberg Act 
today, it is important. It is important to me and all of us 
that this law live up to the government--to its environmental 
legacy. That is what Senator Lautenberg left behind, this 
idea--and I repeat it again--that one of the most important 
things we can do with environmental protection is give people 
the right to know, give them information, give them data so 
they know what is necessary to protect their own health and 
safety.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Pallone follows:]
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Mr. Pallone. So I look forward to today's hearing, Mr. 
Chairman, and I yield back.
    Mr. Griffith. I thank the gentleman for yielding back. That 
now concludes Members' opening statements.
    The Chair would like to remind all Members that, pursuant 
to committee rules, their Members' opening statements will be 
made a part of the record. I would caution you, however, do 
so--file those opening statements that you wish to have--be 
made part of the record in a timely fashion. If it shows up 6 
months later, it is probably not going to make the record.
    That said, we want to thank all of our witnesses for taking 
the time to testify before the subcommittee. You will have the 
opportunity to give an opening statement followed by questions 
from our Members, and we do appreciate it. I introduced the 
witnesses previously, so I am going to skip reintroducing them 
so we can get everybody time to ask their questions and then 
move along.
    So, Mr. Jahn, you are going to be recognized for a 5-minute 
opening statement. Thank you.

STATEMENT OF CHRIS JAHN, PRESIDENT AND CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER, 
AMERICAN CHEMISTRY COUNCIL; RICHARD E. ENGLER, Ph.D., DIRECTOR 
    OF CHEMISTRY, THE ACTA GROUP; GEOFF MOODY, SENIOR VICE 
  PRESIDENT, GOVERNMENT RELATIONS AND POLICY, AMERICAN FUEL & 
   PETROCHEMICAL MANUFACTURERS; AND MARIA DOA, Ph.D., SENIOR 
     DIRECTOR, CHEMICAL POLICY, ENVIRONMENTAL DEFENSE FUND

                    STATEMENT OF CHRIS JAHN

    Mr. Jahn. Thank you, Chairman Griffith and Ranking Member 
Tonko, Vice Chairman Crenshaw, Chairman Guthrie, Ranking Member 
Pallone. I appreciate the opportunity to have this hearing this 
morning and the ability to testify.
    I last appeared before this committee in October of 2023 
based on one central theme, that American success relies on 
American chemistry, and that is even more true today. Americans 
want a stronger and more affordable nation. America's chemicals 
manufacturers can help. Not only are we the driving force 
behind the entire manufacturing economy that produces everyday 
products that businesses and families rely upon, but our 
members are safer and cleaner than they have ever been before.
    But to provide what Americans are asking for, we need 
practical policy that protects the environment and human health 
without sacrificing manufacturing jobs and America's 
competitive edge.
    Nearly 10 years ago, Congress passed TSCA and updated it 
for the first time in decades. It included in that a 10-year 
expiration of the fees that our members pay to the EPA to 
conduct chemical reviews. Like any other user fee program, this 
gives Congress the ability to assess whether improvements to 
the law are necessary.
    If you remember nothing else about what I say to you today, 
there are requirements--there--we need to improve TSCA. The 
improvements are necessary.
    So the delays and the lack of sound science are 
jeopardizing chemical manufacturing here in the United States. 
I want to be clear, though, in what I am saying here today. I 
am not talking about opening up TSCA. What I am saying is I 
would like Congress to utilize the built-in oversight through 
the fees reauthorization process to assess the program and make 
necessary improvements. Dr. Michal Freedhoff, who ran the 
chemicals office in the Biden administration, recently 
suggested that this approach was healthy and reasonable, so we 
have bipartisan support for that effort.
    We have a unique opportunity to reform our regulatory 
environment to help U.S. manufacturing and allow us to 
outcompete other countries for years to come. To accomplish 
this, ACC is guided by principles that we ask Congress and the 
Trump administration to consider: number 1, to put science 
first, drive predictable, transparent, and facts-based 
policies; number 2, create a sensible regulatory environment 
that fosters innovation here in the United States, instead of 
offshoring it to other countries; and number 3, safeguard our 
communities and protect our environment.
    Our industry is safer and cleaner than ever before because 
of ACC's mandatory third-party audited program, called 
Responsible Care, focused on our members' environmental health, 
safety, and security performance. American innovation relies on 
new chemicals that enter commerce in a timely and predictable 
manner.
    Unfortunately, the new chemical program at EPA is broken. 
New chemicals cannot be manufactured, imported, or placed on 
the market without EPA approval. The statute requires a 
determination within 90 days. However, the EPA has consistently 
missed that mark, hindering innovation and ceding our Nation's 
competitive advantage to manufacturers overseas. Based on the 
EPA's updated public data in January, there were 394 chemicals 
in the queue under review: 93 percent of them were past the 
statutory deadline; 63 percent of them had been under review 
for more than a year. This is a permitting reform issue that 
urgently needs to be addressed.
    So what do these delays mean to our industry and U.S. 
competitiveness?
    First, delays mean that--create uncertainty for 
manufacturers, and they are less likely to invest in R&D that 
brings new, innovative, and more sustainable chemistries to 
market. Their customers, whether they are producing autos, 
semiconductors, or anything else, cannot wait.
    Second, delays and uncertainty make it more likely that 
manufacturers will bring products to market overseas. In fact, 
we conducted a survey of our members, and 70 percent of them 
reported choosing to introduce new products outside of the 
United States due to problems with the new chemical program. So 
the new Trump administration can make some changes, make things 
more efficient, but we still need changes to the law so that 
EPA is held accountable to the 90-day deadline.
    In addition to the changes in the 2016 law and the new 
chemical program, it also directed EPA to assess the risk of 
chemicals already in commerce. But however, due to unrealistic 
assumptions about exposures to chemicals, the EPA's approach 
has resulted in unnecessary regulation that is out of step with 
the rest of the world. So Congress needs to take a look at 
updating and providing commonsense regulation to the law, and 
strengthen the requirements for the best-available science and 
interagency coordination.
    So I appreciate the committee holding this hearing today. A 
healthy nation, a secure nation, an economically vibrant nation 
relies on chemistry. Thank you.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Jahn follows:]
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Mr. Griffith. The gentleman yields back. I now recognize 
Dr. Engler for his 5-minute opening statement.

             STATEMENT OF RICHARD E. ENGLER, Ph.D.

    Dr. Engler. Good morning, Chairman Griffith, Ranking Member 
Tonko, Chairman Guthrie, Ranking Member Pallone, and members of 
the Subcommittee on Environment. I thank the subcommittee for 
inviting me today.
    I have extensive experience with TSCA from my 17 years at 
EPA, where I participated in the review of thousands of 
premanufactured notices and low-volume exemptions, PMNs and 
LVEs. I participated in all aspects of those reviews, from the 
initial chemistry review to regulatory decision making. I also 
ran the Green Chemistry Program for many years. I left EPA in 
2015 to join Acta, a firm that helps clients with global 
chemical registrations. But my views today are based on my 
knowledge and experience as a chemist and a TSCA expert. And 
while I will focus on the TSCA new chemicals program, I can 
respond to questions on any aspect of TSCA.
    The new chemicals program is not working as it should. 
Since 2016 the program is stifling innovation, impeding 
commercialization of new chemistry, and driving sustainable 
chemistries out of the U.S. in part because since 2016 EPA is 
taking a hazard-based approach to chemicals rather than the 
risk-based approach that TSCA envisions. The expiration of TSCA 
user fees in 2026 provides Congress with an opportunity to make 
TSCA work better.
    It is important to understand the difference between risk 
and hazard, and so let me offer an example. A shark is a hazard 
to swimmers, but it is not a risk if a swimmer is not near the 
shark. We do not bar swimming in the ocean just because a shark 
is also in the ocean. We consider the likelihood and 
aggressiveness of local sharks to be near the beach. As 
practiced, EPA is effectively barring swimming unless you ask 
EPA if you can swim on the beach on that day. This is not how 
Congress intended TSCA to work.
    Under section 5, EPA must review each PMN and make one of 
several determinations on that substance: is the substance not 
likely to present unreasonable risk to health or the 
environment, including a risk to subpopulations under the 
intended, known, and reasonably foreseen conditions of use; or 
that it may present unreasonable risk; or that it will present 
unreasonable risk. If EPA finds that the substance is not 
likely to present risk, that substance can proceed to market 
without restriction. Otherwise, EPA is required to implement 
some restrictions. Currently, EPA reviews a PMN, and if EPA 
finds any hazard above its low hazard thresholds, EPA concludes 
that the chemical may present a risk. Any uncertainty precludes 
a ``not likely'' finding.
    If vinegar were to be submitted in a PMN, I expect that EPA 
would bar its use by consumers. Vinegar has hazards. It is 
irritating, and if it is left on the skin it causes chemical 
burns. If inhaled, it will damage the respiratory tract. EPA's 
current policy is that a corrosive substance may not be in a 
consumer product above 3 percent. Acetic acid, the key 
ingredient in vinegar, is corrosive, and vinegar contains about 
5 percent acetic acid. So EPA would prohibit consumer use.
    You may wonder, Don't we want EPA to protect against all 
hazards? And in my view, no. Some hazards are familiar and 
routine, and do not require EPA to issue restrictions, as with 
vinegar.
    There are also other statutes that protect workers, 
consumers, and the environment. EPA simply assumes that none of 
these has any protective effect. EPA has issued--as a result, 
EPA has issued restrictions on about 85 percent of PMNs since 
2016. Recently, that percentage is over 90 percent. Over 8\1/2\ 
years and three administrations later, we have seen essentially 
no change. EPA clearly thinks it is implementing TSCA section 5 
correctly.
    You might ask, The restrictions allow you to do what you 
want to do, so what is the big deal? The big deal is the effect 
on the supply chain. Each company in the supply chain must 
follow the restrictions and document compliance and meet other 
reporting requirements.
    Consider another analogy. If the new chemical is a car, EPA 
would review it and find that performing routine maintenance 
reduces the risk of accidents. And then EPA requires that 
routine maintenance be done and that you keep records. Your 
current car does not have these requirements. You do routine 
maintenance, but you question whether you can document every 
oil change, or be sure that you will never go over the mileage 
limit. Either would be viewed as a violation. In addition, the 
police, when they see that model car, are more likely to pull 
it over to review the records. Wouldn't you hesitate to buy 
that car? This is the bias against new chemicals with 
restrictions, and this is what is happening now.
    Some PMNs need to be restricted, but others do not. Take, 
for example, PMNs for chemicals that are on or nearly identical 
to chemicals on EPA's safer chemical ingredient list--safer 
choice ingredient list, a list of the best of the best 
chemicals for household products. In several cases, EPA found 
that these chemicals were too hazardous to be allowed in 
consumer products. This makes no sense. How can it be safer but 
also too hazardous to be allowed?
    Great products are being restricted in ways that offer no 
protective benefit because the potential harm is just not 
likely to occur. Cleaning products, chips, cars, buildings, 
defense and other industries are all starved of innovations. 
Congress needs to change TSCA to give clear direction and set 
performance expectations so that EPA is making decisions based 
on the best available science and reasonable predictions and 
assumptions.
    I look forward to your questions.
    [The prepared statement of Dr. Engler follows:]
   [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Mr. Griffith. Thank you very much, I appreciate it.
    Mr. Moody, you are now recognized for your 5-minute opening 
statement.

                    STATEMENT OF GEOFF MOODY

    Mr. Moody. Good morning, Chairs Griffith and Guthrie, 
Ranking Members Tonko and Pallone, and members of the 
committee. My name is Geoff Moody. I am the senior vice 
president for government relations and policy at the American 
Fuel & Petrochemical Manufacturers.
    AFPM proudly represents the petrochemical, refining, and 
midstream industries. It is a privilege to testify this morning 
about our experience with the TSCA implementation over the past 
10 years. Our members manufacture and transport petrochemicals 
that support a higher quality of life for people around the 
world, and the fuels that are the backbone of U.S. energy 
security and the economy.
    Our industries live the dual challenge every day of 
producing the petrochemicals and fuels needed for a modern and 
growing society and the need to do so evermore safely, 
responsibly, and sustainably. We therefore support a balanced 
and workable TSCA. I would like to spend my limited time today 
summarizing a few key points from my written testimony.
    First, TSCA must remain a risk-based statute grounded in 
reality and underpinned by sound science, the best available 
science. Unfortunately, EPA has strayed from this bedrock 
principle in recent years. The administration of this program 
will benefit by refocusing agency resources on the highest-risk 
chemicals based on exposure. Finally, if changes aren't made 
through a combination of better program management and targeted 
statutory changes, U.S. manufacturing and innovation will 
suffer. My testimony contains additional details, but I would 
like to briefly discuss a few key points about TSCA's new and 
existing programs.
    Starting with the existing chemical program, section 6, the 
2016 amendments require EPA to prioritize existing chemicals 
based on their risk and to designate them as high or low 
priority for further evaluation. They must utilize the best 
available science and weight of evidence to make reasonable 
risk determinations and, if needed, to promulgate mitigation 
measures.
    EPA has not been adhering to this. In fact, they have been 
largely regulating in a vacuum, disregarding other agencies' 
overlapping regulations, industrywide safety practices, and 
real-world data. One glaring example is in the risk modeling, 
which uses unrealistic default assumptions, ignoring OSHA's 
requirements and jurisdiction over workplace protections. To 
highlight just one aspect of this, EPA's modeling assumes our 
industry does not use personal protective equipment when 
handling chemicals at our facilities. To be clear, this does 
not happen. Another--in another example, AFPM, in its 
engagement with the agency, provided real-world data about how 
chemical is actually managed at our facilities. And rather than 
accepting real-world data, EPA relied on its own model 
assumptions, which resulted in a miscalculation of risk. And 
now chemicals are being prioritized incorrectly.
    Of the five chemicals just finalized for risk evaluation 
and the next five that EPA is currently taking comment on, all 
but two are intermediates, meaning they are primarily or only 
used in closed-loop systems where they are consumed during the 
manufacturing process. So the general public is not likely to 
ever come into contact with them. However, this approach 
requires AFPM members to go through a lengthy and uncertain 
process of seeking use exemptions, even though the agency knows 
that our uses--again, in those highly regulated, closed-loop 
systems--are well managed.
    As for section 5, the new chemicals program, it is no 
secret that it faces some significant challenges. The agency 
routinely misses deadlines for timely review of new chemicals 
and new chemical uses, and faces no real accountability for 
these delays, which can leave companies waiting for years 
before they can bring products to new--or new uses to the 
market because manufacturing can't happen without that 
approval.
    We have members that have been waiting for new use 
approvals that will keep plastic waste out of the environment--
help keep plastic waste out of the environment, and to build 
new chemistries for things like electric vehicles and solar 
panels. Many of those products are held up in the current 
section 5 review process, with no end in sight. EPA's delays 
and unpredictability are not reducing global demand for these 
products. What they are doing is sending manufacturing 
opportunities overseas.
    Just closing where I started, we support a TSCA program 
that determines risk based on sound science and real-world 
information and impacts. We believe the experience of the past 
decade has shown that a combination of implementation 
improvements and targeted--I say ``targeted''--statutory 
changes are needed to restore U.S. manufacturing confidence and 
to promote innovation under the statute. AFPM is looking 
forward--looks forward to working with the committee and other 
stakeholders to find those solutions.
    Thank you, and I look forward to your questions.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Moody follows:]
   [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Mr. Griffith. I thank the gentleman. I now recognize Dr. 
Doa for her 5-minute opening statement.

                 STATEMENT OF MARIA DOA, Ph.D.

    Dr. Doa. Thank you, Chairman Griffith, Ranking Member 
Tonko, Chairman Guthrie, Ranking Member Pallone, and members of 
the subcommittee for the opportunity to testify today on the 
implementation of the Frank R. Lautenberg Chemical Safety for 
the 21st Century Act. My name is Maria Doa. I am the senior 
director for chemical policy for the Environmental Defense 
Fund.
    EDF works to advance transformational solutions to the most 
serious environmental problems. Before joining EDF, I worked at 
the Environmental Protection Agency, where for the last 22 
years I held various leadership positions focused on the 
regulation of toxic chemicals, including the Toxic Substances 
Control Act.
    For nearly 40 years after TSCA was first enacted in 1976, 
it became clear that the original law fell short. Too many 
chemicals entered the market without adequate assessment, and 
the risks for many highly toxic chemicals remained unaddressed. 
In 2016, after a decade of legislative debate, Congress took 
decisive action and passed the Lautenberg Act with broad 
bipartisan support. The Lautenberg Act transformed what was 
once a largely ineffective law into one that set a clear 
directive to protect human health and the environment.
    I would like to address two of the significant improvements 
in the law. The first is the requirement for an affirmative 
safety determination before a new chemical can enter U.S. 
commerce, and the second is how the risks of existing chemicals 
are evaluated based on real-world exposures.
    Prior to the Lautenberg Act, it was up to EPA to determine 
whether a new chemical may present an unreasonable risk of 
injury to health or the environment, not whether the new 
chemical was safe to enter the U.S. market. This meant that 
many chemicals, particularly those with little or no toxicity 
information, made it onto the market without any restrictions. 
The Lautenberg Act requires an affirmative safety determination 
for market entry, yet a new chemical notice is only required to 
include information that is known or reasonably ascertainable.
    EPA has approved thousands of chemicals since the 
Lautenberg Act passed, yet there have been claims that EPA's 
new chemical reviews take too long and thus impede innovation. 
However, the delays in new chemical reviews are often caused by 
the new chemical submitters themselves when they fail to 
provide sufficient information up front. This results in the 
submission of additional information later in the process that 
requires reassessment and slows down the review.
    Innovation by itself should not be the determining factor 
for entry onto the market. We have learned expensive, damaging 
lessons from toxic, innovative chemicals of the past like PCBs 
and the forever chemicals, PFAS, that have resulted in hundreds 
of millions of dollars in cleanup costs. TSCA explicitly 
recognizes that innovation cannot occur at the expense of 
health and the environment. It is the industry that pits 
innovation against chemical safety. This is not a valid 
dichotomy.
    We support true innovation that embraces functionality and 
health and safety. EPA must be given sufficient information up 
front to make adequate, efficient, and expeditious reviews and, 
where necessary, allow for restrictions to protect health and 
the environment while supporting innovation.
    Another significant improvement is for how existing 
chemicals are managed. Under the Lautenberg Act, EPA took the 
first meaningful action in 25 years to address the unreasonable 
risks of some of the worst chemicals, including asbestos, 
trichloroethylene--or TCE--and methylene chloride. These 
chemicals cause harmful effects on our health, including 
cancer, birth defects, and even death. In the last 2 years, EPA 
finalized five new risk management rules for these harmful 
chemicals, banning many unsafe uses, dramatically strengthening 
worker protections, and providing greater protections for 
families and children. In developing these regulations, EPA 
used the best available science to determine the risks 
presented by the real-world exposure to the chemical rather 
than examining the risk of exposure to an individual use.
    The Lautenberg Act fundamentally improved our Nation's 
approach to chemical safety and is the driver in reducing 
unreasonable risks from toxic chemicals. Maintaining these 
aspects of the law is essential for safeguarding public health 
and supporting smart innovation. Reopening the Lautenberg Act 
would undermine these critical achievements.
    Thank you for your time, and I look forward to your 
questions.
    [The prepared statement of Dr. Doa follows:]
   [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Mr. Griffith. I thank the gentlelady. We will now begin 
questioning, and I recognize myself for 5 minutes.
    Dr. Engler, in your testimony today you talked about new 
chemical--the new chemicals program, and you implied that EPA 
misinterpreted the TSCA risk-based standard. For my 
constituents watching at home, could you explain how exactly 
chemical exposure is defined, how it relates to risk, and how 
you feel the EPA misinterpreted TSCA?
    Dr. Engler. So when EPA reviews a new chemical, they look 
at all the hazards. They also--they look at the information 
provided by the submitter. If the submitter provides or has 
information about releases and exposures, they will review 
that. If that information is not provided, EPA will predict 
releases and exposures using its own models and worst-case 
assumptions.
    And so this has been routine, and this has been done for as 
long as I have been working on TSCA, which is 27 years now. 
What happens now is, regardless of the outcome of EPA's models, 
even if EPA does not find risk using its worst-case 
assumptions, if there is a hazard above EPA's low-hazard 
threshold EPA, issues a restriction of one form or another. So 
the risk is gone from the equation. If there is a hazard there, 
EPA views that there must be a restriction. Any uncertainty 
leads to a restriction.
    Mr. Griffith. And so you are not talking about unreasonable 
risk. You are just talking about--
    Dr. Engler. Any possible risk.
    Mr. Griffith. Any possible risk.
    Dr. Engler. Yes. So the--I mean, EPA uses thresholds, they 
compare numerically, they compare exposures to the hazard 
thresholds. So they look and compare, this is what--this is the 
concern level. Where is the exposure level? If the exposure 
level is below the concern level, there is no unreasonable 
risk. Even when EPA finds that the exposure is below the 
concern, they still issue a restriction.
    Mr. Griffith. So thus your shark analogy, which I loved, 
and your vinegar analogy. And I think in your written testimony 
you mentioned lemon juice might not make the cut.
    Dr. Engler. Lemon juice would also probably be banned from 
consumer use, yes.
    Mr. Griffith. And I got to ask because I eat too much of 
it, I am sure, but how about my sodium chloride that I love?
    Dr. Engler. I will leave that to you and your doctor.
    Mr. Griffith. All right, so you don't think TSCA would get 
involved in that if it were a new chemical suddenly?
    Dr. Engler. Sodium chloride might pass.
    Mr. Griffith. It might pass? All right, well, that is good 
to know.
    Dr. Engler, do you believe EPA's new chemicals division 
follows basic evidentiary procedure in its decision-making 
process, yes or no?
    Dr. Engler. Generally--we have had mixed results, and it 
depends a lot on the--on who is reviewing the case, which is 
one of the problems we have. It should--your--a review of a 
particular case should not depend on the reviewer. The system 
should be predictable and consistent.
    Mr. Griffith. Yes.
    Dr. Engler. In some cases we provide data, we provide 
measured data, and EPA will use that data and assess the risk. 
And they will still issue a restriction if it is above the low-
hazard threshold. In other cases we provide data and the 
assessors ignore the data or they dismiss the data. They don't 
necessarily explain why, and they just use whatever 
conservative assumption. And again, we end up with a 
restriction.
    Mr. Griffith. As Chairman Guthrie alluded to in his opening 
remarks, we have just received an additional report from the 
GAO this morning. While we haven't had time to fully review all 
of its implications, the GAO does make it clear that the new 
chemicals division does not follow most key practices for 
managing and assessing the results of its new chemicals program 
and does not make use of evidence to learn or uses practices 
that would allow ``apply learning to decision making'' at the 
division. I am sure that has to do with different people making 
different decisions.
    Based on reading the testimony, I am not surprised by this, 
and I look forward to working with all of our witnesses to 
improve the new chemicals program. But it just goes to show 
that we probably ought to open it up, as Congress often ought 
to do with a lot of different bills every now and then, and 
say, ``Is it working?'' Check the engine, so to speak.
    Dr. Engler. Yes.
    Mr. Griffith. Mr. Jahn, could you expound some on what, in 
your opinion, should be considered the best available science 
for evaluating new chemicals?
    Mr. Jahn. So, as you just said the GAO report, I found out 
about that on the way over. I am not surprised----
    Mr. Griffith. So did I.
    Mr. Jahn [continuing]. Were interviewed in that process. 
And, you know, they provide science, for example, for the EPA 
to use that they request. However, very often what EPA ends up 
doing is doing its own modeling and using that data rather than 
the real-world data that our members provide to EPA for the 
assessment. That is one of the reasons that the new chemicals 
program takes so long.
    Mr. Griffith. All right. I appreciate that.
    Dr. Engler, again, could you explain just briefly the 
advantages and disadvantages of statistical modeling for 
chemical releases?
    Dr. Engler. Well, statistical modeling can be used to see 
what a worst case is. So EPA frequently uses 95th percentile. 
They don't look at the absolute worst case, they look at sort 
of a reasonable worst case. And so you are not looking at the 
very end when you talk about a statistical analysis. You--they 
don't look all the way at the very end of the tail, they look 
for that 95th percentile as a worst case.
    Mr. Griffith. All right, I appreciate that.
    My time is up, so I now yield back and recognize Mr. Tonko 
for 5 minutes of questioning.
    Mr. Tonko. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    I appreciate that Congress will need to reauthorize TSCA's 
fee authority to help provide the program with the resources it 
needs to function and function effectively. But I am also 
curious what EPA can be doing without congressional action to 
strengthen the program. So Dr. Doa, obviously, as of Monday, we 
have a new administration. Do you have any recommendations for 
how the incoming leadership at EPA can use its existing 
statutory authorities to better protect health and effectively 
administer TSCA?
    Dr. Doa. Thank you. There are a number of ways that EPA can 
protect health more rigorously. One would be the consideration 
of the multiple chemicals that communities that are around 
facilities are exposed to. Many companies will specialize in a 
type of chemical such as PFAS or brominated flame retardants. 
And while they will send a new chemical to EPA for that, and 
EPA will look at it individually, the communities are exposed 
to not only that chemical but previous PFAS that the company 
submitted to EPA as a new chemical--previous brominated flame 
retardant.
    So I think, given that TSCA specifically requires that EPA 
considers--that EPA consider exposures and risks to more highly 
exposed and susceptible populations such as those surrounding 
communities, and also consumers who are using multiple 
chemicals or the workers who will be using multiple similar 
chemicals, they have the tools, they have the knowledge, and 
they have the experience to be able to do that. EPA has really 
dedicated scientists and engineers who are committed to the 
program and who do their best in new chemicals to use the best 
available science.
    Mr. Tonko. Thank you. And TSCA requires EPA to make its 
regulatory decisions based on the best available science. So is 
it just simply what the manufacturer initially or willingly 
provides to the agency in terms of data, or does EPA have a 
responsibility to also seek out additional data to make well-
informed regulatory decisions?
    Dr. Doa. It is up to EPA to--and they do seek out data and 
models and develop these data and models that they use in the 
new chemicals. But they should not just be taking the industry 
data at face value. They need to look at the validity of the 
data, the applicability of the data for a particular use. Just 
because the industry says ``We don't think there are going to 
be releases from this use'' is not sufficient. EPA--it is their 
role to be independent and assess the information and use the 
sum of the information to determine whether there are 
unreasonable risks.
    Mr. Tonko. And I heard some expression of concern about 
timeliness and thoroughness on behalf of the industry as it 
applies its efforts to EPA. Can you expand upon that, please?
    Dr. Doa. Oh, yes, and I do have personal experience with 
this from when I was at EPA. What will happen is a company will 
submit information. And because they are only required to 
submit what is reasonably known or ascertainable, they may tell 
EPA that they have a chemical and they are using it in a 
certain way, and without much information beyond that. EPA will 
use its models, its vetted models, its experience, and they 
will do estimates. They--if they identify preliminarily an 
unreasonable risk and they tell the company, the company will 
often come back and say, ``No, I have more data.'' And then EPA 
will need to go back and redo its risk assessment again. If it 
still finds preliminarily unreasonable risk, then they go to 
the company. Then more data is submitted and it turns out, 
``Oh, no, you were concerned about worker inhalation, but we 
have this equipment that controls it.'' They never mentioned 
that in the initial submission.
    So EPA goes back and forth with them, sometimes up to five 
times redoing the risk assessment. That takes resources. That 
takes time because part of that is waiting for the company to 
go back and check and come back to EPA. So a lot of it is due 
to the industry, and it is not the 90-day clock that just goes. 
EPA must make an affirmative determination on the safety of the 
chemical.
    Mr. Tonko. Thank you. I had other questions, but I will 
submit those to the subcommittee to get to our witnesses.
    Thank you, and with that I yield back.
    Mr. Griffith. I now recognize the chairman of the full 
committee, Mr. Guthrie, for his 5 minutes of questioning.
    Mr. Guthrie. Thank you very much. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, 
and thanks for our witnesses for being here today. And as I 
said in my opening statement, we are looking to review 
regulations and do what is reasonable. And so I just have a 
question.
    So EPA's current policy is that a corrosive substance may 
not be present in a consumer product above 3 percent. As Dr. 
Engler pointed out in your testimony, the active ingredient in 
vinegar is acetic acid, which is an irritant and may cause 
chemical burns, and most vinegar contains about 5 percent of 
acetic acid. So around Christmastime my family was in town, and 
our coffee pot turned off because it needed to be descaled. In 
the old days you thought coffee pots just powered through. You 
got a lot of steam, and you--it took you a little longer. But 
now the coffee pot turns off and says, ``I am not going to work 
until you descale me.'' Well, who has descaling stuff sitting 
around?
    So that very day, my wife made her North Alabama white 
sauce, which we ate and enjoyed. But according to EPA, if I 
used that vinegar to descale my coffee pot, then it would be a 
toxic substance?
    Dr. Engler. Effectively, yes.
    Mr. Guthrie. And so----
    Dr. Engler. The EPA would prohibit the sale of vinegar as a 
coffee descaler.
    Mr. Guthrie. So I just want to go from Dr. Jahn across--
does that--I mean, Mr. Jahn, I am sorry. Does that seem 
reasonable?
    Mr. Jahn. That does not seem reasonable to me. And 
unfortunately, this is too often the experience that our 
members have when they are bringing new chemistries to market, 
whether they are more sustainable, they have better 
performance, and they go into medical devices, automobiles, 
fighter jets, you name it. It isn't reasonable, and it needs to 
be addressed.
    Mr. Guthrie. We will just go down, all the way down the 
list of--answer that. Do you think that is reasonable, Dr. 
Engler?
    Dr. Engler. No, I think it is--I think EPA is 
overinterpreting what is reasonably foreseen.
    So the statute requires EPA to consider whether or not a 
substance is not likely to present unreasonable risk under the 
reasonably foreseen conditions of use. And the assumption is, 
over 3 percent of acetic acid in vinegar, somebody might harm 
themselves with it because they have no certainty that someone 
will not misuse or misapply.
    Mr. Guthrie. But you can eat it. You can't pour it through 
your coffee pot. That is what--
    Dr. Engler. Yes.
    Mr. Guthrie. OK. That is what I want to make--that doesn't 
seem reasonable.
    Mr. Moody?
    Mr. Moody. I concur.
    Mr. Guthrie. OK. Dr. Doa?
    Dr. Doa. I think the issue is not acetic acid. The issue 
is, if you are using a corrosive chemical in an industrial 
process it might be fine, but the restriction that EPA would 
put on it would be you can't use it in a consumer product.
    Mr. Guthrie. But the issue is acetic acid.
    Dr. Doa. Because it would be sprayed, the concentration 
could be higher. It could be much higher.
    Mr. Guthrie. This is just the same--I took the bottle and--
she made the sauce, and I took the bottle and put it into the--
so that is the issue. I mean, that is--we can't just dismiss 
that is not the issue.
    Dr. Doa. Respectfully, sir, I think that EPA would not 
restrict that. It would restrict it, the percentage, because it 
gets much more corrosive at a higher percent, if it is used at 
a higher percent. I think that is--and so maybe they would say, 
no, it can't be used to descale at 15 percent because, one, 
it--functionally, it doesn't need to be above 3 percent.
    Mr. Guthrie. Right.
    Dr. Doa. And it would be harmful at 15 percent.
    Mr. Guthrie. OK. I think it says anything above 3, but we 
can look at that. So thanks.
    So just being in reasonableness as well, in TSCA another 
area of bipartisan discussion in this subcommittee has been the 
topics of advanced recycling. In your testimony, Mr. Moody, you 
discuss EPA's proposed regulation on pyrolysis oil, which has 
been pending at EPA since 2023. Pyrolysis oil allows 
manufacturers to break down waste plastics and return them to 
useful seed stock--feedstock that can be put into new plastics, 
and this is a key function in recycling.
    And so, Mr. Moody, do you think it makes sense to impede 
our ability to scale advanced recycling to meet our 
sustainability goals?
    Mr. Moody. Advanced recycling is a critical technology if 
we are going to effectively address the issue of plastic waste 
in the environment. So we agree that things should go through 
review, we should be assessing the risk and mitigating risk. 
But at the end of the day, the output of this process is 
chemically identical to other things on the inventory, as 
naphtha, as this other thing.
    So what we would say is, let's look at the data, but, you 
know, we shouldn't be impeding that technology because we need 
it to address----
    Mr. Guthrie. What do you think has been so difficult to get 
it approved?
    Mr. Moody. That is a great question. You know, I--there--I 
think there is probably different points of view on that and on 
how to best address the plastic waste issue. And I think that 
people come at that in good faith. From our perspective, this 
is critical, and you can't dismiss it.
    Mr. Guthrie. All right, thanks.
    Well, my time has expired, and I will yield back. Thanks, 
Mr. Chair.
    Mr. Griffith. The gentleman yields back. I now recognize 
the chairman--or the ranking member of the full committee, Mr. 
Pallone, for his 5 minutes of questioning.
    Mr. Pallone. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. TSCA, as we know, is 
our Nation's chemical safety law under which EPA reviews and 
manages chemicals to protect the health of Americans. And EPA 
is tasked with ensuring the safety of chemicals that consumers 
interact with every day, items like winter coats, workout 
clothes, bedding, mattress pads, computers, and cell phones.
    Now, the TSCA office has been underfunded, despite the 
significant increase in work requiring--required under the 
Lautenberg Act. And without the appropriate staff and 
resources, we can't expect the Act to fulfill its mission and 
EPA's mission to protect health, safety, and complete timely 
chemical reviews. So I know we are not the Appropriations 
Committee, but I do think I have to make a pitch that we need 
more money for the office. But let me go to Dr. Doa.
    Why is it important for EPA to conduct a premarket review 
of all new chemicals and make an affirmative determination on 
safety before a chemical is manufactured, if you will?
    Dr. Doa. Thank you for your question.
    One very important reason why new chemical reviews are so 
important is so that we don't have more chemicals like PFAS, or 
PCBs, or carcinogenic dyes, or brominated flame retardants on 
the market. These chemicals are harmful. And once they are on 
the market and companies are invested in them, it is very 
difficult to limit or decrease the amounts used, and it is 
difficult to get them off the market, even when they are shown 
to be extremely toxic.
    And then these reviews are important so we don't have to 
spend hundreds of millions of dollars as we are for PFAS, 
cleaning them up, or take the multiyear process of regulating 
it as an existing chemical.
    Mr. Pallone. Well, thank you. Now, have the changes 
included in the Lautenberg Act provided EPA with the ability to 
address existing chemicals that have long been known to cause 
harm?
    Dr. Doa. Well, most importantly, the Lautenberg Act gave 
EPA the tools and the directive to take action. Before the 
Lautenberg Act, EPA had not taken action in 25 years, despite 
the many people who died from methylene chloride, both 
consumers and users, despite the many people harmed from 
trichloroethylene, which causes three types of cancer, birth 
defects, affects multiple parts of the system, or asbestos, the 
poster child, causing cancer. So Lautenberg was crucial for 
being able to protect human health.
    Mr. Pallone. Well, thank you. And I also think it is 
important to remember that the chemicals regulated under TSCA 
are used in a range of applications, from manufacturing to 
consumer products found in the home every day--you know, TVs, 
microwaves, other electronics, household cleaners, all types of 
clothing.
    But a final question: Dr. Doa, what does a strong TSCA 
program mean for the health of Americans and the confidence 
consumers have in the safety of chemicals used in all aspects 
of their lives?
    Dr. Doa. It is crucial because what led to the Lautenberg 
Act was the widespread belief by consumers that they could not 
trust a lot of products, that they were being exposed routinely 
to toxic chemicals. And I think this is a way to ensure more 
confidence that what we use every day won't harm us and that we 
will be protected from the most harmful chemicals.
    Mr. Pallone. I appreciate that. You know, I go back to 
the--I know I sound repetitive, but I just can't help--you 
know, Senator Lautenberg, in so many areas of life, was a 
champion for what I call the right to know. And, you know, you 
just got to that.
    In other words, you know, people want information and data. 
I mean, how many times does somebody call my office and say, 
well, ``What is the data? What is the information? What can I 
rely on?'' And I think that, when you have a strong TSCA 
program, you are giving people information so they can, you 
know, make decisions and know what is bad for the health, know 
what is not good for their safety.
    You know, I can't emphasize enough why a--the--a strong 
TSCA program really empowers people and gives them, as you say, 
the feeling that they can have the confidence in these 
products. People are just so convinced that, you know, that 
whatever they use has already been approved, has already been 
safe. But more and more, they don't believe that anymore. So 
that is just another reason why I think we need a strong TSCA. 
Thank you so much.
    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. Griffith. The gentleman yields back. I now recognize 
the vice chairman of the subcommittee, Mr. Crenshaw, for his 5 
minutes of questioning.
    Mr. Crenshaw. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    I will start with you, Mr. Jahn. TSCA requires that the EPA 
make a determination within 90 days. Are there any consequences 
if the agency fails to make a determination within the 
statutorily mandated review period?
    Mr. Jahn. The short version is no. The EPA is supposed to 
give the fees back to the private company that applied. But 
that does not happen in practice. And so right now we are left 
in a situation where, again, as I said in my opening statement, 
63 percent of the submissions are a year old, when the deadline 
is 90 days.
    Mr. Crenshaw. Yes.
    Mr. Jahn. And so, as we look at the authorization process 
for those fees, we need to find some guardrails and some 
accountability for EPA to meet its deadlines.
    Mr. Crenshaw. I mean, it was said by Ms. Doa that a lot of 
the fault lies on the industry itself for not putting in the 
right paperwork or right information. How much of that is true, 
in your opinion?
    Mr. Jahn. So EPA has a challenge in clearly communicating 
with industry in regards to what it is looking for, and it is 
notorious for coming to the industry on the 89th day and 
saying, ``This is the additional information we would like. You 
have a couple of choices here. You can either suspend your 
application and we work on that, or we can deny it, or you can 
get your money back and go to the end of the queue.'' And we 
already know how long that queue takes.
    So I would respectfully submit that EPA needs to do a much 
better job in communicating with the industry in terms of what 
it needs, what it will use.
    Mr. Crenshaw. Mr. Engler, do you have something to add to 
that?
    Dr. Engler. Yes. So we work very closely with our clients 
to prepare very robust PMNs, and we are very good at predicting 
what EPA--the sort of information that EPA is looking for. But 
even when we do that, we find that EPA comes up with questions 
that we could never have predicted. Or during EPA's review they 
have made some errors, or they have missed some key information 
that is in the case. And so some of the rework is just the 
necessary communication between the submitter and EPA to make 
sure there is a shared understanding.
    Mr. Crenshaw. Right. Mr. Jahn, you might be limited in what 
you can say about this, but are you aware of instances where 
new chemical applications for safer and greener chemicals or--
and chemistries were delayed as a result of this kind of 
mismanagement under the TSCA program?
    Mr. Jahn. Yes, so I hear about this from members all the 
time. I could give you a couple of examples.
    One is an application for chemicals that goes into electric 
vehicle batteries. Despite providing all the information the 
EPA has requested, that application has been pending now for 
almost 5 years. OK? So that is number 1.
    Number 2, in the semiconductor space we have a member who 
just got a Department of Energy grant. They were going to build 
the facility with union labor, and they have been waiting for 
over a year from EPA to approve their PMNs.
    So there is at least a couple of examples, and there are 
many more.
    We have also had EPA tell our members that, well, you know, 
``You need to notify us and put it on the cover page when you 
submit your proposal.'' That is how bad it has gotten at this 
point. And we have said, ``Look, we do that. It is throughout 
the proposal. Is anybody actually reading this?'' That is where 
we are right now.
    Mr. Crenshaw. Yes, OK. They don't like where the 
information is on the packet.
    Mr. Jahn. Correct.
    Mr. Crenshaw. That is very annoying.
    Mr. Moody, this is kind of related because in your 
testimony you say that they fail to differentiate between the 
risks posed by a chemical and a consumer product, which is--of 
course, there is a wide amount of exposure there--versus the 
risk posed in a closed-loop industrial process. How can we 
promulgate better and more pragmatic regulations for existing 
chemicals, differentiating between these different conditions 
of use?
    Mr. Moody. So risk is a combination of hazard and exposure, 
and we have talked about that. Where you have something--where 
you have a chemical in a closed-loop system, there is no 
exposure. And so there should be--it should be a lower risk 
assessment at the end of the day because there is no exposure.
    We have seen multiple incidents over the last few years of 
EPA assessing an unreasonable risk on a chemical as a whole, 
but then intermediate processes get wrapped into that. And, you 
know, one example--and TCE has come up a couple of times today, 
but it is an impurity as part of a refining catalyst process, 
all closed loop. But were EPA to ban that use, we would have 
put half the gasoline supply in the U.S. at risk because it is 
used as a refining catalyst.
    So thankfully, we caught that and we engaged the agency. 
And, you know, we--there is a de minimis exemption in there. 
But starting with this premise that all uses, regardless of 
exposure, can create an unreasonable risk and then you are 
living by exemption is no way to run a program, from our point 
of view.
    Mr. Crenshaw. Right. That is not a proper holistic risk 
assessment.
    Thank you, I yield back.
    Mr. Griffith. The gentleman yields back. I now recognize 
Ms. Schakowsky for her 5 minutes of questioning.
    Ms. Schakowsky. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to 
our witnesses today. I really appreciate this.
    There is overwhelming evidence that we are all subjected, 
in some way or another, with chemicals that may not--that may 
hurt us, that children and, of course, workers are vulnerable. 
And I think we have to find out what is a danger to us, and 
then to proceed in the--making the most important thing our 
health and safety.
    I was a proud cosponsor of the Frank Lautenberg Act years 
ago, and I think that this is so incredibly important, and 
deals with the issues of chemical toxins that are there. And I 
saw that you mentioned, Doctor--where are you? Hold on one 
second.
    [Pause.]
    Ms. Schakowsky. OK, no, I still don't see it. Hang on.
    Yes, Dr. Doa, there we go, I am sorry. My vision is not so 
great. But I wanted to thank you for mentioning that methylene 
chloride is dangerous, and it is--can be cancer-causing, and I 
was so happy that during the Biden administration the EPA did 
actually take off the methylene chloride, and that is my 
understanding. Is that right?
    Dr. Doa. Yes, ma'am. It prohibited certain uses and 
required protections for--worker protections for other uses.
    Ms. Schakowsky. So I wanted to ask you, how important is 
the--that legislation important--why is it important, and how 
has it proceeded to make our environment safer, Lautenberg?
    Dr. Doa. Thank you. Yes, it is important because, as you 
noted, with methylene chloride and with other chemicals, it is 
protecting people--children, families, workers--from these 
toxic chemicals which cause a range of harm, cancer, and birth 
defects, and even death. So even though we knew about many of 
the deaths from methylene chloride over years--both consumers 
and workers, workers at small businesses--EPA was unable to 
take action under TSCA before Lautenberg.
    So this really turned the tide and has actually--will save 
lives in the future because methylene chloride cannot be used 
for certain uses. And where people have died in the past, 
fortunately they won't in the future.
    Ms. Schakowsky. I want to thank you for your 30 years of 
service----
    Dr. Doa. Thank you.
    Ms. Schakowsky [continuing]. At the Environmental 
Protection Agency, and now with the private sector, continuing 
in your work.
    But I wanted to ask you. I have heard that those in the 
chemical industry want to take away some of the benefits that I 
see for the country, for the--for consumers from the Lautenberg 
bill. I wanted you to comment on that.
    Dr. Doa. Thank you for the question.
    If we were to take away some of the protections to go back 
to TSCA before Lautenberg, we would be going back to a time in 
new chemicals where, if there wasn't sufficient information, 
chemicals just went onto the market. They were called drops 
because EPA couldn't make a determination, and so many 
chemicals were--went onto the market that were toxic, that were 
risky, very risky. So I think that would be one thing we would 
lose, the protections for chemicals going on to the market.
    And also for the existing chemicals, as I noted--and I was 
there when we tried to regulate existing chemicals, and there 
just weren't the tools--we would go back to a time where things 
that we know are extremely harmful to large parts of the U.S., 
we could do nothing about it.
    Ms. Schakowsky. Thank you. I realize my time is up. Is that 
right?
    Mr. Crenshaw [presiding]. Yes.
    Ms. Schakowsky. And I yield back. Thank you, thank you.
    Mr. Crenshaw. The gentlelady yields back. I now--the Chair 
right now recognizes Mr. Latta from Ohio.
    Mr. Latta. Well, thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and 
thanks to our witnesses for being with us today.
    If I could start, you know, my district, I have over 80,000 
manufacturing jobs, and some of those are chemical companies, 
and they produce a lot of different things that we have to use 
for our everyday lives. And Mr. Jahn, if I could start my 
questions with you, you know, I think it is interesting, you 
know, when you--in your testimony you were talking about we 
have to have a sensible regulatory environment, safeguard our 
communities, protect the environment, put supply chains behind 
us, and unlock the full capability of our transportation 
network. You also state that our chemical program is broken, 
and you also mentioned the length of time. You just mentioned 
it again for one of our Members, how long it is taking to get 
things done.
    But, you know, one of the questions I think is--I would 
like to ask is this: When you say 63 percent have been under 
review for more than a year, the question then becomes--is, are 
they approved? Are they denied, or are they just put out there 
for a longer wait period?
    Mr. Jahn. So it is a very good question. And so yes, there 
is no guarantee that these get approved. And so some of the 
testimony that you have heard earlier today talks about the 
thousands of chemicals that have gone through the process.
    And I want to be really clear. It has only been--since the 
revised law passed, it is about 1,700 chemicals that have gone 
through the process and been approved. So we have heard much 
larger numbers. That does not mean those are going into 
commerce. And you can go find that directly on the EPA's 
website.
    Mr. Latta. Thank you. And going back to your earlier 
statement about the--our supply chain, you know, during COVID 
we all know how broken we found that our supply chain became. 
But you also raised--talked about the supply chain and also 
that likely our manufacturer will bring products to overseas 
markets. What is that going to do to our supply chain?
    I think that is really important here in the United States 
because if we don't have the necessary chemicals to make 
something, you are going to have to go offshore. But what is 
that going to do to, you know, the American manufacturing that 
we have to do right here for our own national security?
    Mr. Jahn. Right. So again, as a reminder, chemistry is at 
the beginning of the manufacturing supply chain. Literally, 
everything starts with us. And so, therefore, there is a direct 
correlation between smart chemical management policy and the 
ability to maintain a robust and resilient supply chain.
    I'll give you one example: semiconductors. So it takes 500 
chemistries to manufacture one computer chip. So Congress has 
worked very hard to try to make sure that we are onshoring the 
manufacture of computer chips. We need to take equal care in 
chemical management policy to ensure that the inputs that make 
that possible are also made here to protect our national and 
economic security.
    Mr. Latta. And just real briefly, what are our foreign 
competitors doing?
    Mr. Jahn. Our foreign competitors----
    Mr. Latta. Right.
    Mr. Jahn [continuing]. In terms of----
    Mr. Latta. In the chemical side.
    Mr. Jahn [continuing]. Approving new chemistries----
    Mr. Latta. On the chemical side.
    Mr. Jahn. You know, if you look at Canada, you look at 
Korea, you look at the EU, typically you are looking at 1 to 3 
months to get their chemistries approved. At the outside, about 
6 months. So we are well, well behind. And if you look at the 
manufacturing space as a whole, China is nearly four times our 
size in terms of their production of chemistry. That lead is 
growing.
    Mr. Latta. Thank you.
    Mr.--Dr. Engler, you mentioned about, you know, we have got 
reduced innovation, hampered the adoption of sustainable 
chemistry. One of the questions I would like to ask: Do we need 
reform or more money in the whole system?
    Dr. Engler. I am sorry, can----
    Mr. Latta. Do we need to have reform, or do we have to have 
more money in the system?
    Dr. Engler. I am not sure what the correct funding level 
is. I think there is--because of staff turnover, there have 
been a lot of new hires, there have been changes. I think the 
program is still getting its feet under itself. So I think 
there is some inefficiencies built in there.
    I would like to see some more maturity before I say yes, 
the program needs a lot more resources, but it may. It may need 
more people. I think it certainly needs more resources to help 
with its IT systems.
    Mr. Latta. But, you know, we have been seeing and hearing 
from the testimony, you know, about what is happening with this 
reduced innovation and, as you've talked about, unsustainable 
chemistry. You know, the concern again is we have got to move 
things to market. Are things moving to market quickly or not?
    Dr. Engler. Oh, no, things are delayed, literally, for 
years.
    Mr. Latta. OK. Let me ask this question. Again, you know, 
we are falling behind, is what it sounds like in this country. 
And also, you know, your question about vinegar--vinegar is 
found on every--I would like to go to any grocery store in the 
United States and not find a vinegar product. You can even 
drink the stuff if you dilute it. So today, just out of 
curiosity, would you think that, you know, if the EPA went out 
there and said we are not going to even have EPA on grocery 
shelves, do you think that would happen if they would say we 
are going to look at vinegar once more?
    Dr. Engler. Well, I think if EPA looked at a lot of 
products, they would--a lot of current consumer products, they 
would probably ban them because of the potential that somebody 
might misuse it.
    Mr. Latta. Well, thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. My time 
has expired, and I yield back.
    Mr. Griffith [presiding]. The gentleman yields back. I now 
recognize Dr. Ruiz for his 5 minutes of questioning.
    Mr. Ruiz. Thank you so much. You know, I just--we updated 
the amendment to make it reflect a real-life situation. So all 
these hypothetical situations that you guys are talking about 
and bringing up with vinegar is just complete nonsense, and not 
real life.
    You know, Dr. Doa just explained that, indeed, no, there is 
no EPA banning of household vinegar to scrub your pots. And, 
you know, I want you to all know, as a scientist and as a 
physician, we have known for many years by Dr. Virchow who said 
that any substance in the right quantity can be toxic to your 
health.
    So, you know, let's just put aside these different 
hypotheticals, and let's talk about TSCA because it is an 
important piece of legislation. It provides the EPA the 
authority to determine the safety of both new chemicals before 
they enter the market and existing chemicals already in use.
    And as we have heard throughout this hearing, the Toxic 
Substances Control Act is vital to protecting Americans from 
dangerous chemicals like asbestos, methylene chloride, 
trichloroethylene that can cause cancers, severe heart, liver, 
renal diseases to people. And for decades the former TSCA law 
failed to safeguard our--safeguard our communities, allowing 
people to be exposed to harmful chemicals in their homes and 
workplaces. And this failure disproportionately impacted 
vulnerable populations, especially our children, who are 
particularly susceptible due to their size, physiology, 
developmentally growing brain, and certain behaviors.
    And as an emergency physician, I have treated kids from the 
devastating effects of inhaling or ingesting these toxic 
chemicals. And exposures during critical development stages can 
lead to severe lifelong health consequences. That is why the 
2016 Lautenberg Act was so important. You see, it strengthened 
TSCA by, among other changes, requiring the EPA to protect 
susceptible populations, including children, and said, hey, 
these are the ones that can be affected the most if ingested or 
inhaled accidentally.
    So, you know, we need to evaluate these chemicals. And 
unfortunately, the first Trump administration failed to 
properly implement the law, including by assuming certain 
exposures were addressed by other statutes and therefore 
discounting risks. The Biden administration has since adopted a 
more comprehensive or whole-chemical approach to provide more 
safety and protection. So these methods examine all exposures' 
pathways in real life, real-life scenarios. So it is important 
step forward to safeguarding the health of all Americans.
    Dr. Doa, you know, why is it important that EPA move to a 
whole-chemical approach when assessing the risks of a chemical 
substance, especially for vulnerable populations? And what does 
the whole-chemical approach mean?
    Dr. Doa. Thank you for your question.
    Starting off with what does the whole-chemical approach 
mean, it means all of your exposures to a chemical, whether 
from the air, water--including drinking water--from soil, from 
consumer products. Because that--looking at all of the things 
you are exposed to presents an accurate assessment of the risks 
that you will encounter.
    And I look at it as analogous to your diet. When you think 
about calories, you take--let's say you have a goal of 2,000--
what you ate for breakfast, what you had for lunch. You just 
don't compare to your goal what you had for breakfast, and then 
say that is fine. You look at everything you have compared to 
your goal.
    And it is particularly important for children, because 
children's bodies don't distinguish whether they are exposed to 
something from a consumer product, from the air, from the 
water, from dust. Kids put things in their--
    Mr. Ruiz. Yes.
    Dr. Doa [continuing]. Mouth all the time. And if you were 
to look at one use of a chemical that a child is exposed to, 
let's say in a consumer product--
    Mr. Ruiz. I have 30 seconds left.
    Dr. Doa. OK.
    Mr. Ruiz. I have one last question.
    Dr. Doa. Sure.
    Mr. Ruiz. The EPA considers susceptible populations such as 
children in its chemical reviews. How does it go about doing 
that? What additional protections do they have for children?
    Dr. Doa. So it looks at multiple steps. It looks at the 
total whole chemical. It looks at the fact that children 
metabolize chemicals different, are exposed a little bit 
different, a lot of hand-to-mouth. It focuses on the harms that 
are more important for children. And it should also be looking 
at filling data gaps on children's exposure.
    Mr. Ruiz. Thank you, I yield back.
    Mr. Griffith. The gentleman yields back. I now recognize 
Mr. Palmer for his 5 minutes of questions.
    Mr. Palmer. OK, I thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate the 
witnesses. If you will give me very brief answers, I have got a 
lot of material to cover.
    Mr. Moody, you made points about the unnecessary delays. 
Have these delays harmed American people by keeping innovative 
chemicals from coming to the marketplace that would include 
chemicals to be used to reduce emissions of greenhouse gases or 
mitigate other environmental issues?
    Mr. Moody. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Palmer. I am looking--
    Mr. Moody. Yes, sir. From our members, they have multiple 
applications that have been pending for EPA in front of--for 
years.
    Mr. Palmer. So it could improve--and Mr.--Dr. Engler, you 
made a point about the premanufacturing notifications have 
declined by over two-thirds, and from about 600 per year to 
less than 200 per year. Is that problematic for Americans in 
terms of access to chemicals being available for medical 
technology, food production, energy generation, and other uses 
to improve quality of life and lower the cost of living?
    Dr. Engler. Absolutely. Many of our clients are 
commercializing overseas.
    Mr. Palmer. Let me point out some things. I ran a think 
tank for years, and we used to publish environmental indicators 
that covered emissions, water quality, land use, toxic release, 
including the Toxic Release Inventory. So I started looking at 
the EPA's Toxic Release Inventory, and it is remarkable how 
much we have improved in that area. Just from 2012 to 2022 we 
have decreased the amount of Toxic Release Inventory by 21 
percent. And since 2000 it is over 50 percent.
    Is that--does that indicate the commitment of the industry 
to improving environmental quality?
    Dr. Engler. It is an indication of the commitment to the 
industry, it is also an indication of the innovations that are 
coming in to replace the more harmful things.
    Mr. Palmer. But that also includes risk screening, 
environmental indicators, which has gone down to 22 percent?
    Dr. Engler. Yes. Actually, I worked on the Risk Screening 
Environmental Indicators while I was at EPA, as well. And the 
RSEI scores have improved significantly.
    Mr. Palmer. When we talk about the Toxic Release Inventory, 
that includes some uses that my colleagues across the aisle are 
very high on, particularly in terms of renewable energy 
production. It--you require toxic chemicals used in wind 
turbines. Would that be true, Dr.--Mr. Jahn?
    Mr. Jahn. Yes it is. And in addition to that, I would say 
there is also 10 tons of plastic in a wind turbine, as well.
    Mr. Palmer. Right. And then, if you really want to get into 
toxic chemicals for renewables, you got to talk about solar 
panels. And by the way, the--we can't recycle the blades, there 
is very little of the--in terms of solar panel production that 
can be recycled. Solar panels contain cadmium, lead, arsenic, 
silver, copper, selenium. They use PFAS chemicals.
    Now, this--my colleagues across the aisle, when they were 
in the majority, moved legislation to ban PFAS. They want to 
completely eliminate it. But according to a couple articles I 
have here, Mr. Chairman, that I think we should introduce into 
the record--``The Truth About Dangerous Chemicals in Solar 
Panels'' and ``PFAS Waste From Solar Panels''--Mr. Chairman, I 
would like to introduce those into the record if there is no 
objection.
    Mr. Griffith. What we will do is we will put that on to the 
list, assuming that there is no objection from the Democrat 
side, and we will take it up at the end of the hearing.
    Mr. Palmer. Well, I am sure they won't object to science.
    Mr. Griffith. I am sure they won't, either, but I--it is 
courtesy for me to give them an opportunity to at least review 
it.
    Mr. Palmer. Well, you are a very courteous, Chairman. Thank 
you.
    Mr. Griffith. Thank you.
    Mr. Palmer. In 2022 the market share for PFAS materials and 
the--which are used in the outer layers of solar panels was 
close to 80 percent. And as I said, most of the solar panels 
have no characteristics for recycling. Is that problematic, Dr. 
Engler?
    Dr. Engler. Well, it is--only from a----
    Mr. Palmer. Well, let me restate it.
    Dr. Engler. OK.
    Mr. Palmer. Is it hypocritical? Because there are 
legitimate uses for PFAS. And I would say that solar panels 
using PFAS to harden the outer layer to make them more durable 
would be a legitimate use. Would you agree with that?
    Dr. Engler. Yes, I would.
    Mr. Palmer. Would you agree that it is hypocritical to 
eliminate all PFAS, or to support PFAS for certain uses that 
they favor as opposed to other uses?
    Dr. Engler. Well, I think an evaluation of PFAS should 
depend on the specific PFAS. It is an extraordinarily broad 
category.
    Mr. Palmer. But there is----
    Dr. Engler. And they have very----
    Mr. Palmer [continuing]. A legitimate use for PFAS.
    Dr. Engler [continuing]. Different characteristics.
    Mr. Palmer. You would agree with that?
    Dr. Engler. Yes, categorically, I would----
    Mr. Palmer. Now, I would support alternatives if there are 
alternatives, and I think the technology is catching up.
    So with that, Mr. Chairman, I happily yield back.
    Mr. Griffith. I thank the gentleman for yielding back and 
now recognize Mr. Peters for his 5 minutes of questions.
    Mr. Peters. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thanks to the 
witnesses, and thanks for holding this hearing today.
    I have to acknowledge up front that my first job out of 
college was in the Office of Toxic Substances, whereas what is 
sometimes called a faceless, unelected bureaucrat--but the 
acronyms CBI and PMN are seared into my memory and will never, 
never leave.
    And look, I know the chemical industry plays a vital role 
in innovation, including development of safer alternatives to 
replace hazardous substances. I know these advancements are 
crucial to the transition to clean energy for public health, as 
Mr. Palmer was suggesting. And I do understand that a TSCA 
review can feel like a massive roadblock. And I do remember the 
paperwork, particularly when companies are introducing newer, 
safer chemicals that align with our regulatory goals.
    I also know that there are significant delays in review and 
uncertainty about approvals that can hinder innovation, 
increases the cost for manufacturing, slows the transition to 
greener, safer, and more sustainable technologies, and can 
discourage risk taking, which is important in this field.
    But TSCA was designed to prioritize the protection of human 
health and the environment above all else. The requirement to 
determine unreasonable risk without considering cost is a 
cornerstone of the 2016 Lautenberg amendments which this 
committee worked on, as well. And the idea is to ensure that 
decisions are based on science and public safety, not economic 
pressures.
    We can create a regulatory regime that supports innovation, 
protects health and the environment, and maintains public 
confidence in chemical safety, and I would like to look forward 
to work with this committee to uphold the principles of TSCA 
while addressing the challenges and opportunities ahead, many 
of which you have identified.
    Dr. Engler, in your opinion, are there changes to TSCA or 
its administration that would both bolster critical innovation 
and maintain protections? Can you give me two or three ideas?
    Dr. Engler. Yes, absolutely. So I think EPA needs clear 
guidance from Congress on what level of uncertainty is 
acceptable. Does EPA need to be certain under all circumstances 
that there wouldn't be an unreasonable risk? Or is there some 
threshold, a not-likely threshold? What is that not-likely 
threshold?
    Mr. Peters. So a more objective metric against which to 
decide that?
    Dr. Engler. Yes, something to differentiate not-likely from 
may-present.
    Mr. Peters. OK. Have you proposed a particular kind of way 
to adjudicate that?
    Dr. Engler. Well, the--I mean, as I was thinking about it, 
the--intellectually, the threshold that I would propose is not-
likely and more-likely-than-not, because--
    Mr. Peters. OK.
    Dr. Engler [continuing]. More-likely-than-not gives some 
clarity that there doesn't need to be certainty, and that--not-
likely, that there is allowed to be some uncertainty that there 
won't be an unreasonable risk because we can never be certain 
about the future.
    Mr. Peters. Dr. Doa, outside of a ban, what are the range 
of options available to EPA when we address the chemicals 
risks?
    Dr. Doa. There are a wide range of options, and they are in 
TSCA also, including changes to the production processes, 
limits on concentration of the use of the chemical. It could be 
labeling, there could be record keeping.
    And I would note, you know, these--this menu is explicit 
for existing chemicals. And this gets to the conversation you 
had where the finding there is with a high degree of certainty 
for existing chemicals, and that is why it is a multiyear 
process as opposed to new chemicals, where more uncertainty was 
foreseen by Congress with the may-present, and particularly 
given the lack of information that is usually included with the 
submissions.
    Mr. Peters. Yes. I mean, I wish I had been on the committee 
for the redo of it. It happened just before I was on. But I do 
remember, specifically in the area of dyes, that even small 
changes in the formulation with basically the same chemical 
group would come under this tremendous review. And whether they 
were new or not, I guess they were technically new, but often 
they were basically the same.
    And so what--did you hear Dr. Engler's proposal for sorting 
out risk?
    Dr. Doa. I think he was talking----
    Mr. Peters. Did you understand what he said?
    Dr. Doa. I think the issue was on, like, the level of 
certainty. And I think there is quite a bit of that that is 
already in the statutory language. But I would like to comment 
on the issue of----
    Mr. Peters. Let me just ask him.
    What in the statutory language would you think needs to be 
changed?
    Dr. Engler. For me, the key threshold for new chemicals is 
how much certainty does EPA need to not make a decision of may-
present? So if there is any uncertainty--what happens now is, 
if they have uncertainty, it may present unreasonable risk.
    Mr. Peters. Right, and there is always uncertainty.
    Dr. Engler. And there is always----
    Mr. Peters. Particularly in places where people are risk 
averse about making decisions. So I would just say maybe we can 
work on tightening that up again so we can get what we want, 
and we can also do it in a way that is constructive.
    Mr. Chairman, I look forward to working on this issue, and 
I yield back.
    Mr. Griffith. Thank you very much, and I now recognize Dr. 
Joyce for his 5 minutes of questioning.
    Mr. Joyce. First, I want to thank you, Chairman Griffith 
and Ranking Member Tonko, for holding this hearing, and for our 
witnesses for being here with us today.
    The American chemical industry is a large and robust part 
of our economy. With revenues of over $600 billion, it provides 
over half a million highly skilled jobs for Americans. Just as 
important, American chemical industry produces a large share of 
the critical materials that we have discussed in this committee 
many times, chemicals like ethylene oxide, which has been used 
to sterilize medical equipment that is being used throughout 
surgical suites in America each and every day, and 
trichloroethylene, which is used to manufacture each and every 
battery, batteries that have brought us here in our vehicles 
today.
    While China has invested heavily to dominate the global 
rare earth mineral market, our domestic chemical industry has 
stayed strong. This is because of the affordable and reliable 
energy that we have in this country, the energy that is under 
the feet of my constituents in Pennsylvania. This energy, 
whether used in the production process or as feedstocks, has 
given our Nation a competitive advantage against the 
geopolitical competitors that we face. And we cannot afford to 
fumble this lead because of bad regulations.
    This is a heavily regulated industry, and we must keep 
workers and the public safe. But it should be with a science-
grounded, risk-based approach, rather than hazard-focused, 
broad regulations. And sadly, over the past 4 years we have 
seen TSCA weaponized by the previous administration. 
Fortunately, on Monday, President Trump said we are back in the 
golden age of America, where we are going to bring back 
manufacturing jobs and unleash American industries that are 
critical to our economic and national security.
    Mr. Moody, as I mentioned in my comments, why does it 
matter to our domestic chemical industry for the U.S. to 
unleash energy production, and how does that affect global 
competitiveness?
    Mr. Moody. Well, thank you for the question, Congressman.
    I would just say at the outset we have the world's most 
competitive refining and petrochemical industry, hands down. 
This is due to a combination of factors. You mentioned natural 
gas. We have cost-advantaged feedstocks here. We have an 
unsurpassed workforce, structural advantages throughout. So 
these are economic drivers of our communities and national 
security assets that we shouldn't be taking for granted.
    I would say affordable energy in general makes it easier to 
ship goods, to manufacture goods through power generation, and 
it provides consumers with more disposable income at the end of 
the day to spend in other parts of the economy. So affordable, 
reliable energy is critical to everything we do.
    In the U.S.--you mentioned natural gas. That is both a 
transportation fuel, it can also be used as a feedstock. We are 
cost-advantaged there. Most of the world uses a chemical called 
naphtha, which is more expensive. Our petrochemical 
manufacturers have a tremendous advantage here in the U.S.
    Implementation of TSCA and what we are talking about today 
is critical to make sure that we can take advantage of that, 
and that we are taking advantage of these national security 
assets. So----
    Mr. Joyce. Thank you.
    Mr. Jahn, OSHA sets enforceable Permissible Exposure 
Limits, PELs, to protect workers who might be exposed to 
hazardous substances. And this includes limits on the airborne 
concentrations of hazardous chemicals in the workplace. Yet the 
Biden EPA established ECELs in several TSCA section 6 rules, 
and in most cases surpassing OSHA's set PEL limits. Do you 
believe that the EPA has overstepped their statutory authority 
and infringed upon OSHA's PEL authority by creating the ECELs?
    And how can the EPA utilize the best available science to 
set feasible, reasonable, and scientific limits?
    Mr. Jahn. Absolutely. So EPA has gone beyond its statutory 
mandate, and it is now in OSHA's territory. OSHA is responsible 
for workplace safety. EPA has seen fit to regulate there, as 
well, and it creates a situation where not only are we not 
using the best available science, it is creating duplication. 
If we are really focused on making things more efficient in 
government, we can't have a standard that is set by EPA that is 
also set by OSHA, and industry is required to comply with both. 
I don't think that makes any sense, from the standpoint of 
trying to be competitive on a global scale.
    So we would like to see EPA to focus on--rightly focus on 
everything we have talked about this morning, on its area of 
expertise, and have OSHA focus on its.
    Mr. Joyce. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My time is expiring, 
and I yield back.
    Mr. Griffith. I appreciate that. Thank you for yielding 
back. I now recognize Ms. Barragan for her 5 minutes of 
questioning.
    Ms. Barragan. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am sitting here in 
my prep--and hearing this hearing. And in my preparation I was 
thinking we were going to have a greater conversation about 
chemicals and what we are going to actually do to protect 
children and families across the country from chemicals that 
cause lethal or life-altering health harms. And that is what I 
thought this--where this hearing was going to go. Instead, I 
keep hearing about the chemical industry, the chemical industry 
companies, and so on and so forth.
    And I think about those that wake up every day in 
neighborhoods where the air carries the persistent smell of 
industrial chemicals, where the water that flows from the tap 
has a metallic taste, where the soils where children play is 
laced with invisible toxins. And this is the harsh reality for 
many disadvantaged communities that face chemical pollution.
    When Congress updated our Nation's chemical safety law in 
2016, it empowered the EPA to protect--to better protect 
communities from this exposure to dangerous chemicals. So for 
me, this is really about public health and protecting our 
children.
    And I want to just recognize EcoMadres for a moment, who is 
here today, for all the work that they do in our communities to 
make sure that toxic chemicals are not in their neighborhoods, 
because we do need to protect our children.
    Dr. Doa, we have heard a lot today about delays on these 
new chemicals. I have also heard from public health and 
environmental groups about delays by the EPA to regulate 
existing chemicals that were approved before 2016 that likely 
pose a threat to human health. Do you think EPA should move 
faster to initiate the risk evaluations for these potentially 
dangerous chemicals?
    Dr. Doa. Yes. I think it is important for EPA to move as 
expeditiously as possible. And I think, in doing so, EPA should 
look at the chemicals that are released together in communities 
that cause the same harms, such as liver cancer or birth 
defects, because they can do the assessments more efficiently 
and result in a better picture of the real-life exposures and 
risks these communities face, and take risk management to 
address these risks.
    And this will also--by looking at them together, it would 
also result in not going towards a regrettable substitution.
    Ms. Barragan. Well, thank you. So I--you know, there was 
a--all the conversation was about the new chemicals and the 
delay that has been happening. I pulled up the EPA website from 
January 6, you know, of this year, and I think it showed about 
a quarter of the delay was waiting on the submitter to submit 
something or to sign something.
    In this case, you know, my question is related to all of 
these chemicals that are already out there that have been pre-
2016, where there is a delay and our children are being exposed 
to it day in and day out. And I think that is where we have 
definitely failed our communities.
    Dr. Doa, for the fiscal year 2025, my House Republicans and 
colleagues have proposed a 20 percent cut to EPA's budget. Can 
you talk about how this cut would cause further delays for 
chemical reviews and risk evaluations?
    Dr. Doa. Thank you. Well, this cut would affect the 
expertise and experience of the folks who would be doing the 
assessments. These are scientists and engineers. And if there 
is not the right expertise, trying to get that expertise will 
slow things down.
    And, you know, all the analysis that they must do to 
estimate the risk, the data that they must gather so that they 
have better estimates, this will slow down and affect the 
integrity, to some extent, of the assessments.
    Ms. Barragan. Great, thank you. Dr. Doa, in 2024 the EPA 
updated its review process to consider the impact of chemicals 
on communities already affected by pollution. Why is it 
important for the EPA to consider overburdened communities when 
they assess chemical health risk?
    Dr. Doa. It is extremely important because overburdened 
communities often have higher exposures, they are exposed to 
more chemicals, including chemicals that cause the same harms. 
And not assessing them just leaves them at greater risk for a 
longer period of time.
    Ms. Barragan. Well, great. Thank you.
    I just want to say I think the previous administration, you 
know, made progress in helping protect our communities and our 
children and public health, whereas this incoming 
administration and my colleagues are focused on making cuts and 
taking away those protections. That is very harmful.
    Thank you, and with that I yield back.
    Mr. Griffith. The gentlelady yields back. I now recognize 
Mr. Pfluger for his 5 minutes of questions.
    Mr. Pfluger. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think this 
administration is focused on innovation, which is the 
competitive advantage this country has. And instead of doing 
things in a rudimentary and out-of-date way, why don't we do it 
in an expeditious and at-the-speed-of-commerce-and-technology 
kind of way?
    Mr. Jahn, it is good to see you again. Before I ask any 
questions, can you just look around the room and tell us the 
things that are sitting in front of us, surrounding us, that 
involve chemicals, and just the daily use thing? Just give us 
three or four examples in the room.
    Mr. Jahn. Absolutely. So the clothes you are wearing, the 
phone that you are using, the microphone I am talking to, the 
chair you are sitting in. Everything starts with the chemical 
industry.
    Mr. Pfluger. The--and, you know, you can look around in our 
daily lives--and this is something that we--we are not going 
backwards, we are not going to abandon this, but we have to do 
this so that we lower costs and we use innovation to keep us 
safe, and to be able to continue to develop products.
    So TSCA's definition of unreasonable risk is broad. It is 
open to interpretation, leading to regulatory uncertainty. And 
my question for you, Mr. Jahn, is, How has this lack of 
specificity impacted the chemical industry's ability to 
actually innovate?
    Mr. Jahn. Yes. So again, we see that challenge in the new 
chemicals program. We had a nice discussion about what that 
threshold would be, what is EPA looking for, and how can they 
make decisions more quickly. And I think the important part to 
understand too, going back to the previous conversation, is 
that EPA has been doing less with more. They have had higher 
congressional appropriations and they have had additional fees 
from industry, double the--twice the fees on new chemical 
submissions and triple the fees on existing chemicals. So they 
have had more resources and they have been less productive over 
this administration.
    So that impacts our industry in a couple of ways. You look 
at innovation, as you said, and the ability to bring new 
chemistries to market that perform better. And either that can 
be done here in the United States or it will be done somewhere 
else. Our industry has not stopped innovating, but 70 percent 
of our members have made the rational business decision to go 
somewhere else. If it is made here, you have just made it more 
costly. Coming off a period of high inflation, prices up 23 
percent over the past few years, we are either killing jobs, 
killing innovation, and harming consumers. It is a bad 
combination.
    Mr. Pfluger. I can't wait to see what Mr. Zeldin is going 
to do with that to make sure that government is not an 
impediment.
    Mr. Moody, when it comes to the analysis, the economic 
factors, especially during the initial stages of risk 
evaluation under TSCA, you know, can you provide examples of 
industries or products significantly affected by the shift 
since the 2016 amendment was put in place?
    Mr. Moody. So look, we--there's kind of two parts of the 
program. So we have the existing chemicals program and the new 
chemicals program. In the existing chemicals program, which is 
really at this point dealing with a lot of the things at the 
top of the supply chain, we are looking at--our risk evaluation 
is under review now that will literally impact thousands and 
thousands and thousands of iterations. So, you know, it is hard 
to quantify that cost, but it is significant.
    On the new chemical program, it is not only the existing--
kind of the existing costs and loss, but it is also the 
opportunity cost, right? And there are things that we could be 
doing that we are not doing. Companies are not choosing to take 
the risk in--you know, of going through a lengthy R&D process 
in order to get to something at--the day. So there just has to 
be a better balance that we strike at the end of the day.
    Mr. Pfluger. Dr. Engler, I will end with you in the last 
minute. The EPA's authority under TSCA extends to regulating 
the full life cycle of chemical substances, including disposal. 
And in your experience, has the EPA managed this responsibility 
well in those areas?
    And where is its approach needing improvement? Give us some 
examples of this full kind of life cycle regulatory idea.
    Dr. Engler. So EPA routinely looks at end-of-life disposal 
for new chemicals. They look at potential exposures from 
landfill, water releases, air, and they predict potential dose 
to anyone who is nearby.
    But when the EPA--even when EPA, using their worst-case 
assumptions, does not find any exceedances, even if it is, you 
know, orders of magnitude below their concern level--they are 
still issuing some restriction to make sure that that would 
never, ever exceed that level. So we see it most acutely in 
water releases.
    Mr. Pfluger. Very good.
    Mr. Chairman, great hearing. Thank you for this. Thanks to 
the witnesses for your testimony. I yield back.
    Mr. Griffith. I thank the gentleman and now recognize Mr. 
Auchincloss for his 5 minutes of questioning.
    Mr. Auchincloss. Thank you, Chairman. I have learned a lot 
in this hearing through the written testimony. Thank you.
    The hazard times exposure framework is useful to me. What I 
am hearing and reading is that, you know, industry seems 
frustrated that maybe EPA is not thinking about exposure the 
way that it fully could, whether it is intermediate closed-loop 
systems or protections that your workers are taking on. It 
seems like EPA is very skeptical that industry is fully 
accounting for the hazards that actually exist in these 
chemicals because there is a financial incentive to downplay 
those hazards. And both sides, I think, have merits behind 
those arguments.
    What I am not hearing is industry seeking to unravel high 
standards that were put in place by TSCA or by the Lautenberg 
amendments. I mean, Mr. Jahn, Mr. Moody, are either of you 
arguing that we should undo the Lautenberg amendments?
    Mr. Jahn. I appreciate the opportunity to make that 
clarification. I will be very clear that we are not looking to 
undo, roll back TSCA reform.
    Mr. Auchincloss. Good.
    Mr. Jahn. And we are looking to get commonsense, science-
based regulation.
    Mr. Auchincloss. Yes, I think both sides are--want high 
standards. And I am sure, you know, the GAO report has 
indicated this probably, some process management improvements 
that EPA could do. But we want very high standards here.
    My concern is the Trump administration is not going to come 
in and make process improvements. The Trump administration is 
going to come in and just unravel the regulatory regime. And it 
is actually not going to be in the interest of innovators, 
because innovators rely upon the ability to make long-term 
investments, confident in the rule of law and a stable 
regulatory regime, and that is not what it is going to be like. 
It is going to reward the worst actors who are externalizing 
all the negative costs to society.
    I am not going to expect you to respond to that. I will put 
that out there. Let me move in, though, to PFAS, because this 
is an area of particular concern for Massachusetts.
    We have PFAS in our soil and in our water, and I applaud 
and appreciate the muscular steps that EPA under the Biden 
administration has taken to have higher standards for PFAS in 
drinking water. As we all know, though, this is probably the 
hardest place to tackle the PFAS problem, and it is at its 
absolute most diluted and the most expensive for municipal 
water supplies to remediate. It strikes me that we have really 
got to try to remediate PFAS at the point of production.
    Now, I have heard, Dr. Engler--I think it was you--say that 
we may not be able to treat PFAS as a class. I would 
respectfully disagree. There is scientific merit behind 
treating PFAS as a class. And if you do so, you can start to 
lean in to how we tackled CFCs 40 years ago through an 
essentiality framework, where you divide it up into 
nonessential, substitutable, and essential categories. For 
example, nonessential would be things like dental floss or 
water-repellent ski surfaces. Substitutable might be kind of 
textiles, like for jackets that people wear. And then essential 
would be for medical devices or for occupational protective 
clothing.
    And I want to open it up for our witnesses here just to 
comment on what you think about moving towards a pretty near 
complete ban of PFAS in production using an essentiality 
framework of nonessential, substitutable, and essential. I will 
start with you, Dr. Doa.
    Dr. Doa. Thank you for the question. Most of the uses on 
the market of PFAS are for what would be characterized as 
nonessential uses----
    Mr. Auchincloss. Yes.
    Dr. Doa [continuing]. Where there are already really good 
alternatives on the market. And even for some of the more 
essential uses--solar panels were mentioned earlier, and PFAS 
is used for that--but I think it is about 40 percent of the 
market is for--uses non-PFAS.
    So there are alternatives for hydrogen----
    Mr. Auchincloss. Yes.
    Dr. Doa [continuing]. There are alternatives for hydrogen 
production for some uses there. There is a lot of research that 
is going into that.
    And I think one important step is EPA has approvals that 
are still on the books for PFAS that were made 10 to 20 years 
ago.
    Mr. Auchincloss. The low-dose.
    Dr. Doa. Yes. Well, not just the low-dose, no. These are 
the--for the full, and before we had the sense. And so EPA 
could go back and review those----
    Mr. Auchincloss. OK.
    Dr. Doa [continuing]. And revoke them, particularly for 
where the uses are not needed.
    Mr. Auchincloss. I want to give Dr. Engler the last word 
here. Could we adopt an essentiality framework like we did for 
CFCs and apply it to PFAS?
    Dr. Engler. Well, I think it really comes down to what is 
the potential risk because, respectfully, I disagree. This--the 
science behind something that has a million molecular weight 
and something that has 40 molecular weight is very different. 
The exposure to the humans is just vastly different. So the 
toxicity of the hazards are not at all similar across the 
entire category.
    Mr. Auchincloss. But do you think even the six PFAS that 
EPA has already said are carcinogenic, do you agree that those 
six PFAS, which we don't want in our drinking water but we 
still allow in production, should they at the very least be 
phased out of production?
    Dr. Engler. Largely, they have been. The most hazardous C8 
PFAS have already been phased out of the vast majority of uses.
    Mr. Auchincloss. And there's a few hundred more that the 
EPA has indicated are potentially carcinogenic. Should those be 
phased out?
    Dr. Engler. And the EPA is moving forward with looking at 
those and possibly restricting those.
    Mr. Auchincloss. I yield back.
    Mr. Griffith. The gentleman yields back. I now recognize 
Mr. Weber for his 5 minutes of questions.
    Mr. Weber. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. Engler, I am going to come to you. I understand that 
under the Biden administration EPA would sometimes provide 
Federal agencies like NASA, which--a lot of those work in my 
district, about half of my--north of my district--and DoD last-
minute exemptions for critical uses based on a broken process 
where DoD, NASA, and other Federal agencies identify a problem 
and bring it to the EPA to plead for resolution.
    It seems like this process makes our national security 
chemical supply chain vulnerable and puts the burden on Federal 
agencies like NASA or DoD to know exactly where every chemical 
is used and how, which is just, in my view, not realistic. In 
fact, DoD recently issued a critical use report highlighting 
this very issue.
    Further, if EPA is only allowing a few uses, then the 
likelihood that chemical continues to be manufactured solely 
for us is low, which leads to overseas competition. In your 
opinion, how has EPA managed the interagency process under 
TSCA, and what do you recommend moving forward?
    How do we fix this coordination problem?
    And does providing last-minute, critical-use exemptions for 
DoD and others simply exacerbate the problem? Your thoughts?
    Dr. Engler. Well, I think the--my--in my view, the primary 
problem is EPA's approach. If--once they find that they can 
establish a safe level for workplace use, both for inhalation 
and a protection plan for dermal exposure, then they should set 
that as the standard and not nitpick about specific uses. If 
NASA or DoD or one of their contractors can meet the standard, 
there shouldn't be a ban for that use. And that is a question 
about what does ``the extent necessary'' mean. It is one of the 
key terms in TSCA.
    Coordination between and among Federal agencies has been a 
problem. It was a problem when I was at EPA. It continues to be 
a problem. And it is a real challenge. Everyone is very busy. 
But as you note, it is critically important that EPA speak with 
their sister agencies.
    Mr. Weber. Do we know, do we have a way of monitoring, 
measuring who is responsible for the timing in those responses? 
Do we know that in the EPA?
    Dr. Engler. Typically, that is done during the interagency 
review of rules. And I have heard--I haven't experienced it 
because, you know, we don't represent other agencies, but I 
have heard from other Federal partners that EPA is giving other 
Federal agencies very short periods of time to review rules.
    Mr. Weber. Mr. Jahn, I see you are chomping at the bit over 
there, so I am actually coming to you.
    Chemical manufacturers in my district have long expressed 
concerns about EPA's review of new chemicals. Now I am going to 
go back to something that happened, I don't know, about a month 
or so back. We are all aware that a lot of Federal employees 
are working from home, right? And we are hoping that Trump does 
something about that and gets them back to you. I know you know 
you all heard this, something about this guy that actually was 
working from home and posted a video or a picture of him in the 
bathtub taking a bubble bath.
    So in your view, would it be advantageous for us to get 
those Federal employees, including EPA, you know, back to work 
in the offices, minus the pictures of the bubble bath?
    Mr. Jahn. Yes, I am not interested in the bubble bath. But 
yes, it would be a great opportunity to create some more 
efficiency in the system and have people who are responsible 
for meeting the deadlines there to perform their duties.
    I would also like to clarify, because we have heard a lot 
this morning about this idea that industry is withholding 
information, it is too slow. We went through this this morning. 
Eleven percent of the applications that are behind schedule are 
waiting for industry information. That means more than three-
quarters that we are waiting on EPA to act. So I just want to 
be clear about that.
    Mr. Weber. That is great. Chemical manufacturers in my 
district long have expressed concerns about those reviews of 
new of new chemicals. And in fact, they are telling--they are 
saying that these reviews should be completed within 90 days of 
the EPA receiving a submission. In reality, EPA falls 
significantly short of this meeting requirement, and there's 
probably a whole lot of factors involved.
    Unfortunately, there is no avenue. As you all painfully 
know, there is no avenue for manufacturers to proceed with the 
development of these new chemicals or chemicals within--with 
significant new uses. So is it feasible, in your opinion, for 
a--what we are calling a 90-day shot clock for a temporary 
approval of the chemical to be granted while the EPA finishes 
that review?
    Mr. Jahn. Absolutely. I think that is fundamental to fixing 
the problems that we are having with TSCA, is having a shot 
clock and accountability for that deadline. We would be happy 
to work with anyone on the committee to help make that happen.
    Mr. Weber. Very quickly, what is the high--likelihood that 
a temporary approval would still be too much uncertainty for 
chemical manufacturers?
    Mr. Jahn. Under the current process, very high.
    Mr. Weber. Well, thank you for that.
    Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
    Mr. Griffith. The gentleman yields back. I now recognize 
Mr. Carter of Louisiana for his 5 minutes of questioning.
    Mr. Carter of Louisiana. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank 
the witnesses for being here. We greatly appreciate your time 
and expertise and interest in being with us.
    I represent south Louisiana, New Orleans and the river 
parishes, a district that encompasses the river parishes where, 
unfortunately, a term that we don't like but we are often 
assigned, and that is Cancer Alley, the heavily industrialized 
stretch along the Mississippi River between Baton Rouge and New 
Orleans, named for its high cancer rates among residents, which 
are believed to be linked to industrial pollution.
    I am particularly interested in how the Toxic Substances 
Control Act incorporates the concerns and health of fence-line 
communities like those in this industrial corridor. A prime 
example of these dangerous chemicals being manufactured near 
homes and schools is methylene chloride, a carcinogen with a 
wide range of commercial and--commercial uses.
    We understand and have heard discussions today about, well, 
this is important and these are chemicals that are needed for 
everyday life. No one is questioning that. What we are talking 
about is how can we do it safer, how can we do it better. Just 
because there are practical uses for it doesn't mean that we 
should not constantly work on improving it, because people's 
lives matter. And people who live in the close proximity of 
chemical plants, they matter. And coexistence becomes the order 
of the day. How do we continue to improve on our day-to-day 
life while taking into consideration the necessity of having 
clean water for people to drink, clean air for people to 
breathe?
    It is not about us against them. It is not industry against 
community, or vice versa. It is about making sure that we are 
taking care of our most important commodity: our earth, our 
people, human lives. Industry is important to all of the above, 
but you can't tell me we can't do better. You can't tell me 
that we cannot endeavor to find a better way to produce these 
necessities of life without killing people, right?
    So I want to talk about how do we find a way to invest 
human capital, research and development to do better. So Dr. 
Doa, how did the Lautenberg Act empower EPA to address 
dangerous chemicals like methylene chloride?
    Dr. Doa. One important thing that the Lautenberg Act did is 
that it made communities a more important stakeholder. It gave 
them--it moved away from just the industry to other 
stakeholders, including communities.
    And one important step that Lautenberg did was what has 
been called the whole-chemical approach. It is doing a better 
job at looking at the range of exposures and risks that people 
in communities face not only from the facilities--and often 
multiple facilities are near their community--but the other 
uses of the chemical maybe for small businesses in their 
community if the chemical is used in consumer products.
    So by having a better picture of what folks are exposed to, 
this leads to more informed decisions on how to mitigate those 
unreasonable risks, which is key. They shouldn't be treated as 
second class to the profits for the use of these old-school 
chemicals. There should be innovation to get to safer 
substitutes, instead of using TCE and perchloroethylene and 
methylene chloride, all these that cause liver cancer and a 
range of other harms.
    Mr. Carter of Louisiana. And the notion that because we 
have always done it this way is not a good answer to why we 
continue doing it this way when we put it next to the 
startling, alarming rates of cancer deaths.
    So Mr. Jahn, can you share with me, from your perspective, 
what are we doing, what are you doing to work to combat the 
dangers of business as usual as we attempt to move forward to 
have a safer way of protecting lives while necessarily using 
chemicals that are important to everyday life?
    Mr. Jahn. I thank you for the opportunity to respond to 
that.
    Number 1, methylene chloride has been banned by EPA as a 
paint stripper. That is totally appropriate, and that is what 
they should do under TSCA.
    Number 2--and you and I had--did an event in Louisiana a 
couple of years ago, and we talked about this--our members 
comply with a program called Responsible Care. We are not your 
grandfather's chemical industry. Our members are cleaner and 
safer than they have ever been. So this is a mandatory, third-
party-audited program. As a condition of membership----
    Mr. Carter of Louisiana. OK, I am sorry, I got 22--I got 
just --I got no time. Actually, can I just ask you real 
quickly, Can you in 10 seconds--and that is probably more than 
I have--tell me what--what are--what is your industry doing--
    Mr. Jahn. Yes.
    Mr. Carter of Louisiana [continuing]. To proactively look 
at chemicals that have always been used, and finding ways to 
make them better so we can lessen the impact on communities?
    Mr. Jahn. Well, we have talked all today about new 
chemicals that we want to get into commerce that have better 
performance and environmental properties, but we are--our air 
emissions are down, our greenhouse gas intensity is better, we 
are three times safer than nonmembers, we are four times safer 
than all of manufacturing----
    Mr. Carter of Louisiana. But those are outcomes. You are 
not talking about----
    Mr. Griffith. All right.
    Mr. Carter of Louisiana [continuing]. What you have done to 
get there. So I am going to yield back.
    My time is----
    Mr. Griffith. I appreciate the gentleman yielding--
    Mr. Carter of Louisiana. But I would love to spend some 
more time talking with you about that.
    Mr. Griffith. And I would remind all Members that we do 
have the opportunity to ask questions for the record after the 
hearing is over. I know 5 minutes is limited, but we have got a 
lot of folks who want to ask questions.
    Ms. Lee of Florida is now recognized for 5 minutes.
    Ms. Lee. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to our 
witnesses for being here today.
    So my home district in Florida has a very vibrant and 
important agriculture industry, principally specialty crops and 
livestock. Mr. Jahn, one of the things you touched on earlier 
was specifically semiconductors and some of the consumer 
products, and the ways in which regulatory uncertainty and 
burdens affect real industry in those ways. I would like to 
focus on agriculture and hear your thoughts about how some of 
these same challenges affect our growers and producers.
    Mr. Jahn. Indeed. So a number of chemistries have been 
mentioned today, whether it is formaldehyde, ethylene oxide, 
and others have a significant role to play in agriculture, of 
keeping crops safe, protecting them from harm. And, you know, 
from our perspective as an industry, food security is really 
national security, right? We have got 340 million Americans. 
They all want to eat.
    Now, TSCA doesn't specifically get into ag chemicals. That 
is in the pesticides office, but we produce many of the 
chemicals that are used in precursors to manufacture 
pesticides. And I will say that that office has the same 
problems that we are--the same problems in timeliness in 
regards to TSCA. Seventy percent of those chemistries are 
behind schedule, as well.
    So what I am trying to say to the members of the committee 
is we have a cultural problem at EPA in not meeting deadlines, 
and not being accountable in making sure that, whether it is 
agriculture or any other industry, has the resources they need 
to be able to feed and protect America.
    Ms. Lee. And could you elaborate on whether there are 
particular Executive orders or actions during the Biden 
administration that you think this administration could 
consider modifying or undoing?
    Mr. Jahn. So we are the most heavily regulated sector in 
American manufacturing. That burden has doubled over the last 
20 years. And the Biden administration would have increased 
that by 50 percent, with no commensurate environmental and 
health benefits.
    So there are a lot of things that I could point to. There 
are 13 different regulations targeted just at our industry, 7 
of them economically significant, more than the Trump, Obama, 
and Bush administrations combined. But I would point you to 2. 
One is the risk evaluation rule relevant to TSCA that doesn't 
actually focus on risk. And number 2, the new chemicals rule 
does not fix the challenges that we are talking about here 
today, which is why we are asking for legislative solutions.
    Ms. Lee. Dr. Engler, your earlier testimony, one of the 
things that you commented was that the review, the outcome of 
the review, can be affected by the particular person or 
employee who is conducting it, and that the consequence of that 
is a lack of consistent or predictable decisions. Would you 
elaborate on why that lack of consistent and predictable 
decisions is important, and how you believe it affects 
industry?
    Dr. Engler. Well, I think it affects both industry and 
health and the environment, because if we are getting 
inconsistent decisions we don't know which one is right. So is 
EPA making decisions based on the best available science? Are 
they making decisions based on consistent policies, consistent 
practices?
    It is economically important because you don't want to have 
different companies submitting products and one getting a 
competitive advantage or disadvantage because of the review 
team.
    Ms. Lee. And what are your thoughts on ways that we might 
improve that process to ensure that we are receiving more 
consistent and predictable results?
    Dr. Engler. So it is critical that EPA have written 
policies and procedures, and that everybody at EPA and their 
contractors follow those policies and procedures.
    Ms. Lee. And how could that more efficient or improved 
review process specifically contribute to the development and 
use of green or more sustainable chemicals? That would go back 
to my earlier question about helping and supporting farmers and 
ranchers in developing those precursor chemicals that are so 
important to their operations.
    Dr. Engler. So if there is a clear standard that people can 
design to for greener, more sustainable chemicals, then 
industry can design to that standard and be confident that when 
they submit that for a new chemical it will be approved without 
regulation, and done so timely.
    Ms. Lee. Thank you, Dr. Engler.
    And Mr. Moody, you mentioned in your testimony food 
packaging as an example of an everyday product that consumers 
use that is important for us in utilizing our everyday life and 
getting existing chemistries and products that they need to 
consumers. Would you discuss your thoughts on how we can ensure 
that the procedures and the regulatory review are productive, 
efficient?
    And share with us, if packaging and the other products you 
have discussed today aren't available in the U.S., where will 
we be going to source those items?
    Mr. Moody. Thank you for the question. I would just like to 
take a moment to associate myself with some comments Mr. Jahn 
said. And, you know, AFPM is not here calling for a rollback or 
an overhaul. We are looking for, I think, some very targeted 
changes. And that gets to your question.
    The one thing I would point to is probably one of our 
biggest issues, is--there is a term in TSCA called ``conditions 
of use,'' and it deals with things that are known or reasonably 
foreseeable. And you are supposed to assess risk based on those 
conditions. From our perspective, when the EPA comes in and 
starts talking about or evaluating rare occurrences, accidents, 
closed-loop systems, those are not reasonably foreseeable 
exposures that should be a condition of use for that chemical.
    And so one thing I would say is, let's clarify that that--
the legislation does not encompass those types of things, and 
really focus it on the conditions of use that we really think 
about, which is the normal conditions of use where there would 
be an exposure. If you do that and you are really focusing on 
where the pathways are, where consumers are actually going to 
come into contact with things, I think that is where the best 
use of resources are.
    Mr. Griffith. The gentlelady yields back. I now recognize 
Mr. Landsman of Ohio for his 5 minutes of questioning.
    Mr. Landsman. Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you for this 
hearing, for the testimony. I appreciate everyone.
    This is--well, a big takeaway for me is that there is broad 
support for Lautenberg, that, you know, it has done some good 
things. I want to get into one particular piece which is really 
important to me--I know it is important to everybody, but--the 
asbestos work. So I have a question on that.
    There also seems to be alignment on the fact that we all 
know that it is in our best interest to manage the risk of 
chemicals before they come to market. And the question is how 
best to do that. And instead of repealing anything, there is 
this question about improvement and what needs to be improved 
and how to do that so that we are keeping people safe and 
ensuring that we can bring things to market, you all can 
attract capital. And the 90-day piece is where I want to sort 
of focus, but first I want to ask Dr. Doa.
    The asbestos piece, can you just talk a little bit about 
the health implications and why it was so important for 
Congress to improve the law to, you know, properly address the 
toxic chemicals associated with asbestos?
    Dr. Doa. Thank you for the question.
    Well, asbestos is highly toxic, a carcinogen. And the real-
world implications are that 40,000 Americans die yearly from--
--
    Mr. Landsman. Yes.
    Dr. Doa [continuing]. Asbestos exposure. And this was 
something EPA tried to ban many years ago, unsuccessfully, 
which is why Lautenberg is so important. And the ban being--
phased out the uses, but there are still legacy uses that are 
in people's homes and business, and need to be handled properly 
because this is a potential longstanding source of exposure, 
similar to lead paint----
    Mr. Landsman. Yes.
    Dr. Doa [continuing]. In homes.
    Mr. Landsman. Thank you for that. And it demonstrates the 
value of the law, the work, the update.
    The question sort of moving forward--and I know we are just 
getting started, which is good--is--one of them has to do with 
the process. And I am curious, and folks can answer or simply 
submit, or we can sort of take this up later. But if the 
majority of things coming through aren't hitting that 90-day 
mark--and that is a big part of the issue here, because we want 
to make sure that we keep folks moving through the system while 
also ensuring that we are keeping people safe--is there process 
improvement that is being done? Is this something that the EPA 
has money for, has invested in?
    Do we have a sense as to what kind of improvement work 
happens and what we could be doing in an updated piece of 
legislation to invest in improvement so that we don't take away 
safeguards but we make the process--and I think you have 
alluded to this, Mr. Jahn--make the process smarter, more 
efficient, and the lines of communication just so much better, 
that people are getting in and out and we are protecting 
people? I am curious.
    And I will maybe start with you, Dr. Doa, and Mr. Jahn if 
we have some time.
    Dr. Doa. Thank you. I think one thing that is really 
important about this is a decision that is made on the new 
chemical is something we will live with for a long time.
    Mr. Landsman. Yes.
    Dr. Doa. And that the 90 days compared to the multiyear 
process for existing chemicals to address it later is key.
    I think one thing that is important that EPA did, they did 
a rule recently where they were more explicit about what is 
called ``known'' or ``reasonably ascertainable,'' the 
information that should be included in the initial submission. 
This hopefully will cut down on the rework, redoing the risk 
assessment multiple times. So I think that is an important 
first step.
    Mr. Landsman. Thank you.
    Mr. Jahn. Quickly, so better communication, accountability 
for the 90-day deadline. And then one thing that nobody has 
mentioned today so far is artificial intelligence.
    Mr. Landsman. Yes.
    Mr. Jahn. We are on the cusp of changing the world in 
regards to artificial intelligence, including in the advanced 
materials space. And EPA needs to be looking at how it can 
leverage that, how we invest in technology to make this process 
work more efficiently.
    Mr. Landsman. Thank you, I yield back.
    Mr. Griffith. The gentleman yields back. I now recognize 
Mrs. Fedorchak for her 5 minutes of questioning.
    Mrs. Fedorchak. Good morning, Chair Griffin and Ranking 
Member Mr. Tonko. This is my first meeting of this subcommittee 
and first hearing as a member of the E&C, and I am really 
excited to be here and get started. Thank you to our witnesses 
for your time this morning.
    Chemistry and chemical products play a significant role in 
North Dakota's economy. In 2023 we exported $665 million worth 
of chemical products. Additionally, feedstock chemicals are 
essential to the production of fertilizers that fuel our $12 
billion and growing agriculture sector. The farmers and 
ranchers in that sector produce the food that hopefully at some 
point today we will get to eat for lunch or maybe dinner.
    In 2024 the Biden administration's EPA finalized changes to 
chemical risk evaluations, changing from a statutorily 
mandated, risk-based approach to a zero-based, hazard-based 
approach--zero-risk, hazard-based approach. We have talked a 
lot about that this morning already.
    We all want to make America safer for our children. And I 
agree with my colleagues that we should always be trying to do 
better. But let's be clear. This change in approach from the 
EPA is a sea change in approach, and it creates more regulatory 
uncertainty and makes Americans less safe, not more safe, by 
pushing manufacturing overseas, jeopardizing American jobs, 
threatening supply chains, exposing them to intrusion by 
foreign adversaries, driving up costs for North Dakota farmers 
and ranchers and thereby for everything that we purchase. These 
too are real impacts and real risks for American families.
    And I appreciate that the EPA is taking a cumulative risk 
assessment of chemicals. We should also take a cumulative risk 
assessment of EPA regulations, because there are far-reaching 
impacts that go beyond just what we are talking about here this 
morning. So I want to just dig into that a little bit more, the 
change in the approach that the EPA is taking.
    EPA has stated that it--in its risk assessments it believes 
it may need to develop a cumulative risk assessment and look at 
the combined health risks for multiple chemicals as part of its 
evaluations.
    The agency has also claimed that it provides--``TSCA 
provides the Agency the authority to consider the combined risk 
for multiple chemical substances or a category of chemical 
substances.'' Mr. Jahn, does TSCA clearly give the EPA this 
authority, or is this a new interpretation of the statute?
    Mr. Jahn. We believe this to be a new interpretation of the 
statute. I mean, in the statute there is a requirement to use 
the best available science, there is a requirement to focus on 
the weight of scientific evidence and to look at exposures in 
the real world and what that--on those specific conditions of 
use. And we believe in a post-Loper Bright world it is not 
appropriate to extend and bend the existing legislation to that 
purpose.
    Mrs. Fedorchak. OK, thank you.
    Dr. Engler, would you agree with this characterization of 
what EPA is supposed to consider when conducting a risk 
evaluation for a particular chemical?
    Dr. Engler. Well, I think there are circumstances it is 
scientifically justified for EPA to look at potential 
cumulative risk, but it is--the--they simply can't say we have 
to look at every co-exposure of every possible thing.
    Mrs. Fedorchak. And Mr. Jahn, as the EPA looks at doing 
this and evaluating all possible ways people might be exposed 
to a chemical instead of focusing only on its primary use, as 
someone in industry how would you go about trying to determine 
that and helping to manage chemical exposure?
    Mr. Jahn. I think this is some of the challenges that we 
have run into with the implementation of TSCA. This hearing is 
appropriate to take a fresh look at this because this is a 
challenge we have going back with the EPA when they come back 
to us and say, well, you didn't look at this, this, and this. 
Well, nobody told us to look at it up front, and we are just 
guessing at what EPA wants in terms of information and 
potential exposures that they are looking at beyond the 
condition of use which the company is focused on.
    Mrs. Fedorchak. Are you ever asked to quantify, Mr. Jahn, 
the impacts of the delays in your not getting answers from the 
EPA in a timely manner?
    Mr. Jahn. Yes, so it is very difficult to quantify the 
exact impacts on that. But again, we are in a situation where 
the Chinese are the biggest producers in the world, nearly four 
times our size. That lead is growing, and 70 percent of new 
molecules we create are going somewhere else. The economic 
impact is significant.
    Mrs. Fedorchak. And Dr. Engler, from your perspective as 
someone with a scientific background, is this approach 
consistent with scientific principles?
    Dr. Engler. I would argue no. I think EPA is taking a far 
too precautionary approach, not considering what is realistic.
    Mrs. Fedorchak. OK.
    Mr. Griffith. The gentlelady yields back.
    Mrs. Fedorchak. Thank you.
    Mr. Griffith. I now recognize Mr. Soto for his 5 minutes of 
questioning.
    Mr. Soto. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    When the Frank L. Lautenberg Chemical Safety for the 21st 
Century Act was passed, then-Republican Chair John Shimkus was 
quoted as saying, ``This legislation on the floor today will 
mark the first consequential update of the Toxic Substances 
Control Act in 40 years. The end result of our work is a vast 
improvement over public law.'' These reforms were a bipartisan 
achievement. I think we could all agree on that, and we have to 
start from that going forward.
    And we have three choices: We could strengthen; keep the 
same, perhaps make it more efficient; or weaken the laws. I was 
happy to hear that many of you, you are more looking at the 
paperwork than you are about lowering the standards. That would 
be egregious.
    You know, we have heard about making America healthy again, 
but it hasn't really been defined, right? I mean, folks were 
outraged about red dye recently, and there has been 
demonization of vaccines and fluoride. So I don't know how this 
would work coming right out of the gates in the first hearing, 
talking about potentially adjusting these toxic laws. If the 
90-day review standard isn't being met, then we do have to find 
a way to fund more positions or improve it with technology, but 
just not simply make it easier for toxic chemicals to be 
approved.
    Dr. Doa, you know, one of the top three causes of cancer, 
as you know, is toxic chemicals. And I think we all agree that 
Americans deserve the best information about the chemicals that 
they come into contact with and the risk of cancer. China, over 
the last 20 years, saw about 82 to 84 percent of their 
population exposed to carcinogens, while we have seen a decline 
in the U.S. Should we really be looking at a China standard 
when we are coming to protecting our constituents against toxic 
chemicals?
    Dr. Doa. Excuse me? I think I missed part of what you said 
about China, their standard. Could--do you mind repeating?
    Mr. Soto. So we have seen about 83, 84 percent of the 
Chinese population exposed to carcinogens over the last 20 
years. And at that same time we have seen a decline in the 
United States. Should China really be the standard when we are 
looking at public health in these areas of toxic chemicals?
    Dr. Doa. Oh, no. My goodness, we shouldn't approve 
chemicals and harm significant parts of our fellow--of our 
population, harm our fellow citizens.
    I believe American innovation can develop useful chemicals 
that embrace health and safety. They are not mutually 
exclusive, and certainly our lives are not an appropriate 
trade-off for chemicals.
    Mr. Soto. Thank you.
    Dr. Engler, I really liked your vinegar example. You know, 
people know vinegar, though, right? They know not to rub it on 
their faces. They don't drink it straight. It is commonly known 
that it can be an irritant in those areas. But folks don't know 
polyfluoroalkyl, right, a chemical that has caused a cancer 
cluster in--among firefighters in Florida. So how much of a 
heads up do we really need to give folks for all these 
chemicals, unlike vinegar, that they would have no idea about?
    Dr. Engler. Well, I think there is an extraordinary range 
of hazards, from things that are minor, things that are 
knowable like vinegar but manageable, and things that are very 
hazardous. And so the same approach isn't applicable across 
that entire range.
    So what EPA has done historically--and in my view, should 
be doing--is looking--focusing on the particular hazards of the 
particular chemical and deciding, does this particular 
chemistry need to have restrictions going forward? And there 
are definitely PMNs, and some of our clients' PMNs, that are 
highly hazardous that EPA has restricted in entirely justified 
ways. And there are others that I think EPA is taking a far too 
precautionary approach, because these are hazards that don't 
need EPA to issue restrictions.
    Mr. Soto. Now, we saw a parallel of this with FDA with red 
dye recently being banned. How do you make a consistency 
between these two things?
    Dr. Engler. I am sorry, I didn't understand that.
    Mr. Soto. There was a ban recently on red dye. Perhaps, Dr. 
Doa, you are aware of it, as well. I see you nodding on it. How 
do we make these things consistent with--even with this being--
with the FDA? Dr. Doa, do you have a reflection on that?
    Dr. Doa. Oh, the ban on red dye number 3 was hugely 
important. Carcinogens have no place in our food. And likewise, 
EPA should be consistent and protect against introducing new 
carcinogens onto the market. We already know the damage that 
carcinogens have caused. We have so much data on it in workers 
and people.
    Mr. Soto. True freedom and public health requires informed 
choices. So I am really concerned to make sure that we have 
those for our constituents.
    And I yield back.
    Mr. Griffith. The gentleman yields back. I now recognize 
Mr. Evans of Colorado for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Evans. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, Ranking Member, 
and thank you to our witnesses for coming today.
    Whenever I have heard these conversations in the past, and 
even today, it seems like they are broadly framed in the 
economy versus health outcomes. And I guess I disagree a little 
bit with that characterization. I have a son that has special 
needs to include some breathing issues, and I want clean air, 
clean land, clean water as much as anyone does. But I know that 
I also need a job to be able to get him the healthcare that he 
needs, to be able to provide that health insurance. And I also 
need a robust chemical manufacturing capability here in the 
United States to be able to produce the medicines, the medical 
supplies that my son needs.
    And this isn't just me. This is a massive part of my 
district. My district produces tens of billions of dollars of 
oil, gas, fuel, petrochemicals, agriculture, fertilizer, et 
cetera, and those are the jobs that allow these families to be 
able to provide for the health needs of their kids and of their 
families.
    And finally, we know that financial stressors have a direct 
correlation to negative health outcomes, people either delaying 
seeking care until that problem becomes bigger and more 
expensive, financial stressors causing negative mental health 
outcomes. And so really, a two-part question here.
    Mr. Moody, I will start with you, a two-part question. 
Number 1, any sort of ballpark estimate that you can provide in 
terms of either lost jobs, inability to create jobs stemming 
from how the EPA is interpreting TSCA?
    And then part 2, any insight into negative health impacts 
as a result of that either loss of jobs or loss of economic 
productivity in terms of either the job itself or the loss of 
manufacturing ability for medicines, medical supplies, things 
of that nature?
    Mr. Moody. Thank you for the question, Congressman. I don't 
have a good estimate on the economic impacts, is the short 
answer.
    The longer answer is very complicated, and it gets into a 
lot of opportunity costs. And most of these chemicals going 
through the new chemicals process are subject to CBI, and so we 
don't even know, really, what is on the list. Our members won't 
even share it with us. But they assure us that they could be 
game changers.
    One thing I would say, though--and I want to pick up on 
something you said--I agree that there is--innovation and 
health are not mutually exclusive. So, you know, hear me say 
that very clearly. And actually, TSCA itself discusses these 
things in terms of reasonable risk, making it clear that there 
are hazard considerations, exposure considerations, and then 
there's actually risk tolerance considerations in here, because 
what you might consider risky somebody else might not, right? 
And so these are going to be some subjective judgments at the 
end of the day.
    Our concern is that EPA has gotten away from the science 
here and that they are making unreasonable assumptions about 
exposure, and that is driving decisions based not on sound 
science.
    So not exactly an answer to your question, but if I ever 
get a better number I will make sure we convey it.
    Mr. Evans. Thank you.
    And Dr. Engler. So hearing that EPA has gotten a little bit 
away from the science, do you have any insights into the 
negative health impacts that that might have in our ability to 
be able to either provide jobs or produce the manufacturing to 
provide medicines and medical supplies?
    Dr. Engler. I can't speak directly to that. But a group 
that we manage did a--we had a couple dozen members and 
surveyed them and did an economic analysis. And the economic 
analysis--they ran the results from the members through IMPLAN, 
the economic model. And the model predicted something on the 
order of billions of dollars a year of lost economic activity 
because of the issues with the new chemicals program.
    Mr. Evans. Thank you.
    Mr. Jahn, it looked like you had something to add there.
    Mr. Jahn. Yes, I could speak directly to that in this case. 
So I have asthma, as well. And thankfully, I don't need to use 
an inhaler very often. But you actually need formaldehyde to 
make an inhaler work. And the EPA's evaluation of formaldehyde 
and the bad science that they used to reach their conclusions 
was such a low level--below background levels--that this room 
would have not been in compliance with their original proposal. 
That is the kind of science that we are talking about that is 
driving decisions that are not in our health interest or our 
economic interest.
    Mr. Evans. So can you just expound on that a little bit, 
the ability to get something as simple as an albuterol inhaler, 
which has formaldehyde as one of the precursors to manufacture, 
that could be potentially impacted by the current 
interpretation that the EPA is taking for TSCA?
    Mr. Jahn. Absolutely. Now, we have been successful in 
getting them to back off of that, but they are still times--
still three times lower than the level that was just determined 
by the EU, which did that in the last year or two. So we are--
--
    Mr. Evans. How----
    Mr. Jahn [continuing]. Orders of magnitude out of line with 
everywhere else in the world.
    Mr. Evans. Real quick, I know my time is short: How much 
time and effort did it take you to get the EPA to walk that 
back?
    Mr. Jahn. Well over a year.
    Mr. Evans. Thank you, I yield back.
    Mr. Griffith. The gentleman yields back. I now recognize 
Mr. Menendez for his 5 minutes.
    Mr. Menendez. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to take 
a moment to acknowledge the service of the late Senator Frank 
Lautenberg, the namesake of the legislation we are discussing 
here today. Senator Lautenberg led an extraordinary life and 
fought tirelessly for the great Garden State every single day. 
I had the privilege of spending time with him and his family, 
got to know him, and he was an incredible individual. New 
Jersey is proud of his legacy, and I am glad for the 
opportunity to carry that work forward today.
    In New Jersey the chemical industry is the largest 
manufacturing industry in the State, employing tens of 
thousands of people. It also means that tens of thousands of 
people in New Jersey are exposed to chemicals every day at work 
and in fence-line communities located near high-risk chemical 
facilities. Dr. Doa, can you share with all those who call New 
Jersey home how the Lautenberg Act has worked to protect 
workers and fence-line communities from the potentially harmful 
effects of toxic chemicals?
    Dr. Doa. So TSCA has long considered the risk to workers 
for both new and existing chemicals. And under Lautenberg it 
has improved the protection of workers, because a worker 
shouldn't have to trade their health for a paycheck.
    And one thing it does is it sets standards for protection 
based on risks. And I have heard today OSHA PELs mentioned, 
that OSHA itself has said they are not protective for the most 
part, don't use them. And then OSHA also considers nonrisk 
factors. So just taking into account the nonrisk factors, their 
PELs, even if they weren't outdated would not be protective.
    So EPA sets performance standards that people can meet 
either through changes in production--EPA does not assume that 
every worker has a respirator strapped to them. And they can't 
because a respirator that is appropriate in--at one facility 
may be totally inappropriate for the same use at a different 
facility. It might not be protective because of differences in 
the size of the room, how much chemical is in the air. So that 
is such an important thing, that EPA recognizes that protecting 
workers is extremely important and that there are multiple 
tools to do it, and not just to put the burden on workers by 
assuming that they are just going to--on the assumption that 
they are going to wear a respirator.
    Mr. Menendez. Sure, I appreciate that.
    Thanks to the Lautenberg Act, EPA is now required to review 
all new chemicals before they can enter commerce. Previously, 
EPA only reviewed about 20 percent of new chemicals. That is a 
significant increase in workload, but a necessary one to 
protect the health of all Americans.
    Unfortunately, for much of the last 8 years, EPA has not 
received additional resources due to the added work--or to 
address the added work. A 2003 GAO report highlighted the 
office's resource constraints and pointed to staffing issues as 
a cause for delays in chemical reviews. And while EPA does have 
the ability to collect fees from industry, these fees can only 
offset 25 percent of the implementation costs.
    Dr. Doa, in your own words, what is the impact of an 
underfunded and understaffed TSCA program?
    Dr. Doa. Thank you. An underfunded program affects the 
reviews, and so it affects the integrity of the reviews and the 
decision that gets made. And it is less protective.
    Remember, before Lautenberg, many chemicals just dropped 
from review because there was insufficient information. Now EPA 
is required to make an affirmative decision on each chemical. 
And cutting back resources cuts back on the expertise, the 
knowledge, the experience because people will leave, people 
will--so there won't be the----
    Mr. Menendez. And you want to make sure of a balance of 
resources on both sides, right?
    Because it seems, Dr. Engler, that where Acta does partner 
with the folks who are submitting and provide services--and I 
am running out of time, so I have to go back, but I will try to 
give you a chance.
    Dr. Doa, just real quickly, while Congress considers 
reauthorization of the fees, yes or no, will that be enough, 
just the reauthorization of fees to do--to support EPA in the 
capacity they----
    Dr. Doa. No.
    Mr. Menendez [continuing]. They need to be?
    Dr. Doa. They need greater support overall.
    Mr. Menendez. So we should consider additional resources 
through----
    Dr. Doa. Yes.
    Mr. Menendez [continuing]. The appropriations process. 
Thank you.
    Dr. Engler. Yes, I just want to challenge the 20 percent. I 
have heard this number bandied about. It was certainly on the 
record in 2016. When I--I was 17 years at EPA. I reviewed 
literally thousands. We never let a case go through without 
somebody looking at it. We may have dropped things from taking 
action because that is what was required under the statute once 
we decided there wasn't a potential unreasonable risk, but that 
doesn't mean it wasn't reviewed.
    Mr. Menendez. OK. I would like to ask more questions, but I 
am out of time so I will have to submit them to record, 
including schedule F under the Trump administration, because we 
would love your thoughts on that. But we will submit those 
after this committee hearing.
    Thank you so much.
    Mr. Griffith. I thank the gentleman for yielding back and 
now recognize Dr. Miller-Meeks for her 5 minutes of questions.
    Mrs. Miller-Meeks. Thank you, Chairman Griffith and Ranking 
Member Tonko, for holding this hearing today. I want to also 
thank our witnesses for testifying before the subcommittee.
    In Iowa's 1st District alone, the chemical industry 
provides over 2,000 direct jobs, pays over 100 million in 
wages, and is the second-largest manufacturing industry in the 
State. This subcommittee has the responsibility of addressing 
the aggressive overregulation of the chemicals industry by the 
Biden administration, which has severely hindered American 
companies' ability to innovate, grow, and compete in the global 
market. I believe this hearing is a strong step in the right 
direction toward achieving that goal.
    And Dr. Doa said that the EPA wouldn't restrict vinegar, 
but let me give you an example of aggressive overregulation. I 
am both a former operating room nurse and a doctor, and when 
the EPA came out with its rules on ethylene oxide, which is the 
source for nonsteam sterilization, with no alternative in 
place, what was the assessment of the best available science? 
What was the assessment and evaluation of risks and the cost? 
Was it better to have people have nonsterilized equipment put 
in their bodies, risk infection, sepsis, and death? I would say 
that is an example of overzealous regulation.
    Mr. Moody, as you know, Iowa is a leader in biofuels 
production. In your testimony you state that when renewable 
feedstocks are coprocessed with petroleum feedstocks, even at 
low percentages, EPA considers these resulting fuel products to 
be new substances to TSCA review. Many believe this creates 
barriers and delays bringing renewables to the marketplace 
without improving safety or reducing cost or improving the 
environment. Can you explain more about why you believe fuels 
produced through coprocessing should be considered--should not 
be or should be considered new substances under TSCA?
    Mr. Moody. Thank you for the question. And I will just say 
AFPM's members, in addition to being refiners and petrochemical 
manufacturers, are some of the largest biofuel producers in the 
country. So we appreciate your advocacy.
    You are correct. The EPA came out several years ago and 
said new biofuels are going to be subject to section 5 of 
TSCA's significant new use rules, and they have been pushing 
new fuels through that process.
    From our perspective, whether it is a biofuel or a biobased 
plastic--so you have a, you know, bio feedstock going into a 
plastic--you are going to--there is going to be things that are 
already on the inventory that we should be evaluating against.
    So rather than going through an expensive, lengthy, 
seemingly endless process, let's look at whether there is 
something actually equivalent and whether there is actually any 
kind of real new risk there. And, you know, from our 
perspective, that would help conserve resources.
    Mrs. Miller-Meeks. So the current approach would, I think, 
hinder our farmers' ability to increase renewable fuel 
production and cede that marketplace to Brazil, who doesn't 
have the same restrictions, and then we import it back to the 
United States.
    Mr. Moody. Correct.
    Mrs. Miller-Meeks. Thank you.
    Mr. Jahn, in your testimony you expressed concern that in 
conducting TSCA risk evaluations EPA makes arbitrary 
assumptions about workplace exposures, such as assuming workers 
do not use personal protective equipment. You argue this is 
contrary to OSHA requirements and TSCA's directive for the EPA 
to defer to other agencies. As a general matter, if OSHA is 
already having regulations, do we need TSCA to tell us to avoid 
irritable chemicals getting in our eyes or on our skin? Isn't 
that kind of common sense and on the label?
    Mr. Jahn. Absolutely. So the Biden EPA assumed that they 
weren't wearing PPE. They assumed that they weren't doing that, 
even if they were required to do so by law, to be clear about 
that, and as well as the industrial hygiene protocols that our 
members put in place. This is not an accurate assessment of how 
our members operate and, you know, it is just ignoring reality 
and doesn't make sense. And it creates government duplication, 
which is part of the problem we are talking about here today.
    Mrs. Miller-Meeks. And it may be why they don't have enough 
time to focus on getting their reviews done within 90 days.
    Mr. Jahn. Exactly.
    Mrs. Miller-Meeks. The amended TSCA requires EPA to use the 
best available science, Dr. Engler, and when evaluating 
chemical risks. But the law does not define this term. Critics 
argue the EPA's recent risk evaluations have either overstated 
or understated risks. How do you think ``best available 
science'' should be defined?
    And what changes, if any, are needed to EPA's process to 
ensure it is using appropriate scientific standards?
    Dr. Engler. Well, the best available science is--it has got 
to be based on quality experiments that are objective and 
reproducible. Good science is good science, regardless of who 
funds it, whether it is industry or academia or NGO or the 
government.
    What we have seen--and we have seen uneven results in the 
existing chemicals risk evaluation. Some of them, in my view, 
have been based on sound science. Others, EPA is using the 
lowest number they can possibly find and using that to justify 
their existing chemical exposure limits, regardless of the 
departure from other regulatory agencies or other scientific 
bodies.
    Mrs. Miller-Meeks. Thank you. I have a question on 
formaldehyde risk, but my time has expired, so I will submit it 
to be answered for the record.
    Thank you, and I yield back.
    Mr. Griffith. Thank you very much for yielding back. I now 
recognize Mr. Langworthy for his 5 minutes of questions.
    Mr. Langworthy. Well, thank you very much, Chairman 
Griffith.
    The chemical industry is critical to New York State's 
economy. It ranks as our third-largest industry, and it 
generates $14.75 billion annually. Over the years I have spoken 
to many leaders in New York's chemistry industry, and one 
message has been consistent: robust and predictable chemical 
management policies, they are vital to driving American 
innovation and meeting our Nation's needs in energy, national 
security, healthcare, infrastructure, and many more areas.
    Unfortunately, under the Biden years the industry has 
experienced anything but predictability. Section 5 of the Toxic 
Substances Control Act, TSCA, requires the EPA to review new 
chemical notifications. But approvals without restrictions have 
dropped sharply from 90 percent in previous years to just 10 to 
20 percent under the Biden administration. Under TSCA section 5 
the EPA must review each premanufacture notice and determine 
whether a substance is not likely to present unreasonable risk, 
may present unreasonable risk, or will present an unreasonable 
risk to health or the environment.
    Dr. Engler, has the EPA actually defined ``unreasonable 
risk''?
    Dr. Engler. Generally, there is a course of conduct where 
they establish a concern threshold, and then they compare 
exposures to that threshold. And that is--that--although they 
haven't defined it, in practice that is how they determine 
whether or not something is an----
    Mr. Langworthy. So they really haven't defined 
``unreasonable risk.''
    Dr. Engler. They haven't defined it.
    Mr. Langworthy. OK.
    Dr. Engler. I can only tell you what they do.
    Mr. Langworthy. What are the consequences of not having 
clear definition?
    Dr. Engler. Well, it gives EPA--or individuals at EPA--a 
lot of latitude to make their own decision. And so we get the 
inconsistency that I have mentioned previously.
    Mr. Langworthy. So when evaluating a new chemical, should 
all hazards lead to an unreasonable risk? For example, you 
know, everyone is talking about vinegar here today, so an 
irritant such as household vinegar is subject to--is that 
subject to an unreasonable risk determination?
    Dr. Engler. I mean, if--again, I--my prediction is that EPA 
would find--if vinegar were submitted, EPA would find that 
consumer use may be an unreasonable risk, and EPA would have to 
issue some sort of restriction. I don't think that is 
reasonable.
    To Mr. Jahn's point earlier about--people do take 
protective measures when they get something on their skin and 
it hurts. So I think there is----
    Mr. Langworthy. Right.
    Dr. Engler [continuing]. There is some reasonableness to 
people saying, ``You know what? `Corrosive or irritating 
substances,' we don't need a regulation to force people to 
protect themselves for those.''
    Mr. Langworthy. President Trump, in his inaugural address, 
said we are unleashing an era of a commonsense revolution, and 
I think common sense needs to prevail a little more here.
    Dr. Doa, yes or no, when you say that over the last 8 years 
over 3,600 chemicals have been approved, does that mean that 
they have been commercialized too?
    Dr. Doa. For some of them, it is--
    Mr. Langworthy. Yes or no.
    Dr. Doa. Respectfully, sir, it is not a simple yes-or-no 
answer because, once EPA approves it, then it is up to the 
company to take the next step and commercialize it.
    Mr. Langworthy. So it was a no.
    Dr. Engler, are you aware of any instances in which a 
chemical has been approved but not gone to market because of 
EPA restrictions?
    Dr. Engler. Absolutely.
    Mr. Langworthy. So delays that stem from EPA's 
interpretation of the Toxic Substances Control Act extend 
beyond chemical producers. It ripples through the entire supply 
chain. Manufacturers across sectors rely on new chemical 
innovations to create essential products, from medical devices 
to semiconductors to construction materials.
    When approval processes stall, so does innovation, leaving 
businesses unable to upgrade to safer, more effective 
chemicals. This forces many industries to continue using older 
chemicals and hinders their ability to compete globally, 
especially against the Chinese, and expands--you know, the 
Chinese are constantly expanding their own chemical production 
capabilities at a very rapid pace. To strengthen the supply 
chain and ensure that the U.S. remains competitive, we need 
predictability and clarity in chemical regulations, not 
roadblocks and delays in innovation.
    Dr. Engler, given the ripple effects of regulatory delays 
on the entire supply chain, how can we ensure that EPA's 
chemical review processes are streamlined to allow American 
manufacturers to access safer, more effective chemicals in a 
timely manner so we don't fall behind global competitors like 
the Chinese?
    Dr. Engler. I think there are some critical, targeted 
changes that Congress can make to the statute that gives EPA 
clear guidance when--for new chemicals--when it should and 
should not be issuing restrictions.
    Mr. Langworthy. Excellent. As global competition, 
particularly from China, intensifies, we need more 
predictability in the chemical regulation space so American 
manufacturers can innovate and expand with confidence. And I am 
eager to work alongside--as a member of the Energy and Commerce 
Committee--along with the Trump administration, our new EPA 
Director-in-waiting, Lee Zeldin, to ensure that the American 
chemistry industry remains a global leader in safety, 
production, and innovation.
    And Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
    Mr. Griffith. I thank the gentleman for yielding back. I 
now recognize Mr. Carter of Georgia for his 5 minutes of 
questions.
    Mr. Carter of Georgia. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And let me 
begin by congratulating you, Mr. Chairman, as chair of this 
subcommittee. This is an extremely important committee, and 
this is an extremely important subject, issue that we are 
discussing today. And I appreciate you bringing it up as the 
first hearing that we are having this year.
    Before I begin, Mr. Chairman, if you will, I would like to 
ask that--submit a letter from the American Cleaning Institute 
on the need of--for a predictable and reliable chemical program 
for the record.
    Mr. Griffith. We will take that up at the end. We have a--
we put together a list. I need to let the minority party take a 
review of it, but it is--
    Mr. Carter of Georgia. OK.
    Mr. Griffith [continuing]. Usually not objected to, but 
they will take a look at it and let me know.
    Mr. Carter of Georgia. Well, the ranking member is a good 
friend of mine, so he will make sure we get it taken care of.
    [Laughter.]
    Mr. Carter of Georgia. Thank you again.
    Folks, thank you all for being here. I know it has been a 
long hearing so far, but I want to talk specifically. I am a 
pharmacist by profession, so this is very important to me. 
Chemicals are, obviously, used in drugs and manufacturing, and 
one of the things that we say in healthcare is that, you know, 
does the benefit outweigh the risk? And that is something that 
we have to look carefully at. And it is certainly something 
with chemicals.
    And I will tell you that I had some tribulation when I went 
to the golf course and was given some insect repellent, and 
they told me, ``You can spray it on you, but don't get it on 
the grass because it will kill the grass.'' Well, wait a minute 
here, you know? That brings me pause.
    But at the same time, we have gotten to a situation now 
where we have seen unacceptable delays in the new chemicals 
program. It has almost stopped, and we can't have that. We have 
got to have research and development. We have got to have new 
chemicals coming into the market. And a lot of it is being 
pegged and blamed, if you will, on overregulation. And we all, 
again, understand that there are risks involved in this, but we 
also understand that we can mitigate those risks effectively so 
that products can be used in commerce.
    And one of the things that I think is important to note is 
that EPA's evaluation of chemicals is a fee-based service, and 
that it has increased significantly. And that doesn't seem to--
and it doesn't seem to be providing that service proficiently 
at all. So a key component of the bipartisan Lautenberg Act is 
section 26, as you all know, which authorizes the collection of 
fees from chemical manufacturers and processors so they can 
defray the cost of administering TSCA programs. This fee 
authority, however, is set to expire in June of this--of next 
year, so we need to keep that in mind.
    Now, prior to the Lautenberg Act, as I understand it, it 
was--the fee was in statute. But now we have got a fee that--
the fee collections are 25 percent of EPA's annual cost of 
administering these activities, and it is capped at $25 million 
a year. So when TSCA was amended, the fee for a premanufactured 
notice, PMN, was $2,500. In 2018 EPA increased that fee to 
$16,000. And just last year EPA again raised it to $37,000. 
That is an increase of 1,380 percent.
    Mr. Jahn, yes or no, is that increase reasonable?
    Mr. Jahn. No. If this were a pay-for-performance system, 
EPA would be fired.
    Mr. Carter of Georgia. Dr. Engler, is it--do you think that 
is reasonable?
    Dr. Engler. I didn't see the basis for EPA raising the fee 
the way they did in the fee rule.
    Mr. Carter of Georgia. Mr. Moody?
    Mr. Moody. No, it is not reasonable.
    Mr. Carter of Georgia. Dr. Doa?
    Dr. Doa. With all due respect, sir, EPA is not the 
consultant.
    Mr. Carter of Georgia. Yes or no. That is all I ask.
    Dr. Doa. The fee--raising the fee is reasonable.
    Mr. Carter of Georgia. Raising the fee 1,380 percent is 
reasonable? OK. That is fine, that is fine.
    OK, Mr. Jahn, let me ask you something. What do you think 
is a reasonable amount to pay for a PMN or any other review 
that is carried out under TSCA?
    Mr. Jahn. So, look, the EPA has legitimate expenses it 
needs to cover.
    Mr. Carter of Georgia. Sure, we all understand that.
    Mr. Jahn. And so we are happy to have a conversation about 
what that looks like. But I am more concerned about, frankly, 
whether or not the process works and we get to results from 
that process, rather than how much it costs.
    Mr. Carter of Georgia. Dr. Engler?
    Dr. Engler. As I said earlier, I don't know what the right 
level is because I don't think the process is working 
efficiently.
    Mr. Jahn. That is right.
    Mr. Carter of Georgia. Right.
    Mr. Moody?
    Mr. Moody. I agree. I mean, I think what you would hear 
from our membership is they are--if they are getting results, 
then, you know, a higher fee might be justified. But we are not 
getting results.
    Mr. Carter of Georgia. OK. So, you know, we got a new 
administration now, and we have been talking about a number of 
different things. But one of the things is about permitting and 
about permitting reform and regulation reform. It starts right 
here, and this is extremely important. Thank you all for being 
here. This is an extremely important issue.
    And Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
    Mr. Griffith. I thank the gentleman for yielding back. And 
now, by unanimous consent, as we do in this committee on a 
regular basis, we allow members of the committee from other 
subs to waive on.
    Having been here since we gaveled in----
    Mrs. Harshbarger. Yes.
    Mr. Griffith [continuing]. I now recognize for 5 minutes of 
questioning Mrs. Harshbarger.
    Mrs. Harshbarger. Oh, you are so sweet. Thank you, Mr. 
Chairman and the ranking member, for allowing me to waive on.
    You know, Mr. Jahn, you said yours was the most regulated 
sector, and my pharmacy is the most regulated profession, if 
you ask me. And as a compounding pharmacist, you know, I have 
dealt with bulk chemicals, APIs, 90 percent of which originate 
outside this country, in China, and you have to comply with USP 
795, 797, now USP 800, have to deal with the NIOSH list with 
hazardous drugs, antineoplastics. It is just a regulated 
profession. And there is validity in dealing with these 
hazardous regulations, but it has to be based on common sense 
and scientific evidence. Do you agree?
    And this issue is very important to me and to my district 
because we have a company, Microporous. It is a battery 
separator manufacturer in my district, which--there is only two 
in the U.S. And it is currently facing an existential threat 
due to a final rule the Biden administration made related to 
trichloroethylene. The final rule would change the allowable 
amount of TCE in the workplace at Microporous a factor of 500 
times, from a limit of 100 parts per million to 0.2 parts per 
million. And that is just not realistic, and it would be 
impossible to meet. And it would cost jobs in the district, not 
to mention these battery separators are critical and essential 
for national security and national economy and to maintain 
critical infrastructure. So today I am introducing a 
Congressional Review Act with Congresswoman Mariannette Miller-
Meeks to scrap the Biden's TCE rule, just for your information.
    My first question is to Dr. Engler: Would this change to 
the allowable amount of TCE represent a risk-based or a hazard-
based approach?
    Dr. Engler. Well, actually, let me change the question 
here. The problem I have with the TCE rule is that EPA is 
basing their exposure limit on a study that hasn't been 
reproduced.
    Mrs. Harshbarger. Exactly.
    Dr. Engler. So I question whether what they are basing it 
on is the best available science.
    Mrs. Harshbarger. Well, it is a flaw. It is a flawed study. 
Just say it.
    OK, very good. Do you believe the--TSCA, the way it is 
written, would require an administration to make a drastic 
change to the particulate matter regulations surrounding TCE?
    Dr. Engler. I am sorry, ask that again.
    Mrs. Harshbarger. Do you believe the way TSCA is written 
would require an administration to make such a drastic change 
to the particulate matter regulations surrounding TCE?
    Dr. Engler. Not when it is based on such flimsy science.
    Mrs. Harshbarger. Yes, exactly. Thank you. Thank you for 
backing me up.
    It is really unfortunate that the Biden-Harris 
administration chose to take these drastic measures to harm the 
domestic production of battery separators. You know, it is 
ironic, considering that battery production was so integral to 
the Green New Deal that they wanted so badly. But we have a new 
administration, and we have the opportunity to clarify the 
TSCA's intent.
    And with that objection, Chairman, I am including the 
testimony from the CEO of Microporous.
    Mr. Griffith. And again, if you can give us a copy of 
that----
    Mrs. Harshbarger. Yes.
    Mr. Griffith [continuing]. So it can be reviewed.
    Mrs. Harshbarger. I will do it.
    Many Members have discussed in one way or the other the 
significant backlog in the review process for chemicals at EPA. 
So my question is for Dr. Doa.
    In your testimony you note that more than 3,600 chemicals 
have been approved during the first 8 years of amended TSCA, 
but do you know the number of chemicals that weren't approved 
or are still waiting?
    Dr. Doa. The number? I don't know the exact number in the 
process right now, ma'am.
    Mrs. Harshbarger. OK. Dr. Engler?
    Mr. Jahn. Ma'am, if I could--
    Mrs. Harshbarger. Yes.
    Mr. Jahn [continuing]. Comment on that, please.
    Mrs. Harshbarger. Go ahead.
    Mr. Jahn. So again, to be clear, 3,600 chemicals have not 
been approved since TSCA. The number is about half of that.
    Mrs. Harshbarger. Really?
    Mr. Jahn. That is based on--go to EPA's website and you can 
find that there.
    Mrs. Harshbarger. OK. That is what I need to know. I 
appreciate you all. Thanks for being here today.
    And I yield back, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. Griffith. All right. If you could give me that document 
so that we can get that--that is our next--yes.
    [Pause.]
    Mr. Griffith. I am giving my colleagues an opportunity to 
look at the document that was presented for unanimous consent.
    That will conclude our witness questions for the day.
    I ask unanimous consent to insert in the record the 
documents included on the staff hearing document list. That 
would include Mrs. Harshbarger's, Mr. Palmer's, and Mr. 
Carter's documents that they wanted to have submitted under 
unanimous consent.
    [The information appears at the conclusion of the hearing.]
    Mr. Griffith. I remind Members they have 10 business days 
to submit questions for the record, and I ask the witnesses to 
respond to the questions promptly.
    Without objection, the subcommittee is adjourned.
    [Whereupon, at 1:30 p.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.]
    [Material submitted for inclusion in the record follows:]
   [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

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