    [House Hearing, 119 Congress]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]

                     HOPE ON THE HORIZON: PRIORITIZING SMALL
                      BUSINESS GROWTH IN THE 119TH CONGRESS

    =======================================================================

                                    HEARING

                                  BEFORE THE

                          COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS
                                 UNITED STATES
                            HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                        ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS

                                 FIRST SESSION

                                   __________

                                  HEARING HELD
                                FEBRUARY 5, 2025

                                   __________

    [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

                Small Business Committee Document Number 119-001
                 Available via the GPO Website: www.govinfo.gov

                                    __________

                       U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
    58-532                  WASHINGTON : 2025

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                      HOUSE COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS

                        ROGER WILLIAMS, Texas, Chairman
                            PETE STAUBER, Minnesota
                            DAN MEUSER, Pennsylvania
                             BETH VAN DUYNE, Texas
                               JAKE ELLZEY, Texas
                             MARK ALFORD, Missouri
                             NICK LALOTA, New York
                            BRAD FINSTAD, Minnesota
                              TONY WIED, Wisconsin
                          ROB BRESNAHAN, Pennsylvania
                              BRIAN JACK, Georgia
                             TROY DOWNING, Montana
                 KIMBERLYN KING-HINDS, Northern Marina Islands
                             DEREK SCHMIDT, Kansas
                   NYDIA VELAZQUEZ, New York, Ranking Member
                           MORGAN MCGARVEY, Kentucky
                           HILLARY SCHOLTEN, Michigan
                          LAMONICA MCIVER, New Jersey
                            GIL CISNEROS, California
                           KELLY MORRISON, Minnesota
                            GEORGE LATIMER, New York
                             DEREK TRAN, California
                           LATEEFAH SIMON, California
                           JOHNNY OLSZEWSKI, Maryland
                            HERB CONWAY, New Jersey
                        MAGGIE GOODLANDER, New Hampshire

                     Lauren Holmes, Majority Staff Director
                     Melissa Jung, Minority Staff Director

                               C O N T E N T S

                               OPENING STATEMENTS

                                                                       Page
    Hon. Roger Williams..............................................     1
    Hon. Nydia Velazquez.............................................     2

                                   WITNESSES

    Mr. Karl Hutter, Chief Executive Officer, Click Bond, Inc.,
      Carson City, NV................................................     5
    Mr. Bill New, President and Owner, New Industries, Morgan City,
      LA.............................................................     7
    Ms. Alice Frazier, President and Chief Executive Officer, Bank of
      Charles Town, Charles Town, WV.................................     8
    Ms. Molly Moon Neitzel, Founder and Chief Executive Officer,
      Molly Moon's Homemade Ice Cream, Seattle, WA...................    10

                                    APPENDIX

    Prepared Statements:
        Mr. Karl Hutter, Chief Executive Officer, Click Bond, Inc.,
          Carson City, NV............................................    48
        Mr. Bill New, President and Owner, New Industries, Morgan
          City, LA...................................................    58
        Ms. Alice Frazier, President and Chief Executive Officer,
          Bank of Charles Town, Charles Town, WV.....................    61
        Ms. Molly Moon Neitzel, Founder and Chief Executive Officer,
          Molly Moon's Homemade Ice Cream, Seattle, WA...............    74
    Questions for the Record:
        None.
    Answers for the Record:
        None.
    Additional Material for the Record:
        Associated Builders and Contractors (ABC)....................    76
        Canada Prime Minister Document...............................    78
        Defense Credit Union Council (DCUC)..........................    79
        PIIE Document................................................    81
        Small Business Investor Alliance (SBIA)......................    96

     HOPE ON THE HORIZON: PRIORITIZING SMALL BUSINESS GROWTH IN THE 119TH
                                    CONGRESS

                                  ----------

                          WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 5, 2025

                      House of Representatives,
                   Committee on Small Business,
                                                        Washington, DC.
        The Committee met, pursuant to call, at 10:01 a.m., in Room
    2360, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Roger Williams
    [chairman of the Committee] presiding.
        Present: Representatives Williams, Stauber, Meuser, Van
    Duyne, Ellzey, Alford, LaLota, Finstad, Wied, Bresnahan, Jack,
    Downing, King-Hinds, Velazquez, McGarvey, Scholten, McIver,
    Cisneros, Morrison, Latimer, Tran, Simon, Olszewski, Conaway,
    and Goodlander.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. Before we get started, I want to
    recognize Mr. Alford from the great State of Missouri to lead
    us in the pledge and the prayer.
        Mr. ALFORD. Thank you.
        Well, God, we are just so thankful to be here today as a
    Committee to just try to make America better through small
    business.
        I thank you for the witnesses who have come here today,
    paid their own way to be here, to testify and to take
    questions.
        God, let us operate in a manner of civility and love.
        And I just appreciate all the Members of this Committee and
    the Ranking Member and the Chair for their dedication.
        Just bless us, bless our time together, for the betterment
    for the United States of America.
        Through Jesus Christ, I pray.
        Amen.
        I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of
    America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation,
    under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. Good morning, everyone, and I want to
    now call the Committee on Small Business to order.
        Without objection, the Chair is authorized to declare a
    recess of the Committee at any time.
        I now recognize myself for my opening statement.
        Welcome to the first Committee on Small Business hearing of
    the 119th Congress.
        I want to extend my gratitude to our witnesses for being
    here also today. And I know many of you traveled to share your
    experiences with us and your perspectives, and we deeply value
    your time and your voice.
        The Committee on Small Business is proud to represent the
    hardworking men and women of Main Street America here in
    Washington. Our mission today and every day is to listen,
    learn, and better understand the challenges and the
    opportunities impacting the American people, particularly those
    who build and sustain small businesses nationwide.
        Small-business owners are not just entrepreneurs; they are
    job creators, community leaders, and the backbone of economic
    opportunity for millions of Americans. Small-business ownership
    reflects the very essence of the American Dream--the
    opportunity for any person, from any background, to take a
    risk, work hard, and build a better future for themselves and
    their families.
        Our economy depends on small businesses and the workers
    they employ. From local manufacturers to retail employees,
    service workers and bankers, they are the heartbeat of our
    economy, shaping our communities through their dedication,
    creativity, and resilience.
        Over the past 4 years, Main Street America has faced
    historic challenges--stifling regulations, record-breaking
    inflation, supply-chain disruptions, high interest rates, and a
    national labor shortage. Despite these challenges, the men and
    women of main street have proven time and time again their
    strength and ability to adapt. These individuals embody the
    grit, the innovation, and perseverance that make the nation
    great.
        So this Congress, alongside President Trump, will once
    again prioritize policies that support Main Street America,
    strengthen economic opportunity, and create an environment
    where small businesses can grow and create jobs.
        Today, we celebrate the critical role each small business
    plays in building and sustaining their communities. We look
    forward to hearing from our witnesses on how increased small-
    business optimism and a promising economic landscape will help
    Main Street America.
        There is hope on the horizon for small businesses, thanks
    to President Trump's pro-business commitment to lowering taxes
    and cutting regulations. It is time to turn the page on the
    past 4 years and focus on the future for Main Street America
    under President Trump.
        I wanted this hearing to be the first of the 119th Congress
    so we could shine a light on the great contributions and
    sacrifices of Main Street America--those who dedicate their
    days, their resources, and lives to make our nation strong.
        Before we proceed, I would like to extend a warm welcome to
    the new Members joining the Committee. We are thrilled to have
    you as part of our team and look forward to working with you
    this Congress. As Chairman, I am eager to work alongside all of
    you as we help shape policies that put the needs of Main Street
    America first.
        Now, with that, I will yield to our distinguished and my
    friend, the Ranking Member from New York, Ms. Velazquez.
        Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Good morning. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Again, I want to express our condolences to you. We have you
    and your family in our thoughts and prayers.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you.
        Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Good morning. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for
    holding this important hearing.
        And thank you to the witnesses for being here today.
        In just 4 short years, 22 million Americans took the leap
    of faith and started a small business--a record high for a
    single Presidential term. Our nation saw an unprecedented
    small-business boom and economic comeback in the face of an
    equally unprecedented global pandemic and recession.
        Everyday Americans and entrepreneurs receive essential
    investments from the American Rescue Plan Act, Bipartisan
    Infrastructure Law, CHIPS and Science Act, and Inflation
    Redaction Act--historic victories that laid a strong foundation
    for our economic recovery. The data shows that this foundation
    is fruitful. Annual inflation is at 2.7 percent, and real GDP
    growth has accelerated to 3.1 percent in the last quarter.
        Mr. Chairman, small business is not a Democratic or
    Republican issue; it is an American issue. While we will work
    with our Republican counterparts to find common ground and do
    right by America's main streets, we will never weaken our
    commitment to make life better for our nation's small-business
    owners.
        From the tech company that started as an idea in a garage
    to more established main street retailers or the local
    restaurant, all play an important role in generating employment
    opportunities for our communities, whether they be in rural or
    urban America.
        That is the beauty of America. Anyone can have a dream and
    make it a reality and that is what millions of entrepreneurs in
    this country have done.
        Many couldn't have done it without the assistance of one of
    the SBA's programs. From lending to mentoring to marketing, the
    SBA has remained a critical resource to those with a good idea
    and employers hoping to expand.
        There is more that this committee can do to continue our
    efforts to grow the small-business economy, like investing in
    childcare, healthcare, and developing the next generation of
    workers.
        That is why today's hearing is so timely. It will allow us
    to gain valuable perspectives on how to best help entrepreneurs
    continue to do what they do best--invest in themselves, their
    communities, and their workers.
        While we may not always agree with each other on the best
    path forward, it is my hope that we will work together for the
    betterment of small employers.
        Today, we are joined by a distinguished panel of witnesses.
    This hearing is an opportunity to listen to their insights into
    the challenges facing small businesses and, specifically, how
    Congress can prioritize their needs. I look forward to hearing
    the witnesses' testimony.
        And, with that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. The lady yields back.
        And now I will introduce our witnesses.
        Our first witness here with us today is Mr. Karl Hutter.
    Mr. Hutter is the CEO of Click Bond, Inc., located in Carson
    City, Nevada. Mr. Hutter joined Click Bond in 2000 and has held
    various positions within the company, including the vice
    president of sales and marketing, chief operating officer,
    chief financial officer also. Before leading the sales team,
    Mr. Hutter directed the company's business development and
    applications engineering efforts across the Asia-Pacific
    region.
        Mr. Hutter is a certified airline transport pilot and a
    passionate advocate for general aviation and the aerospace
    industry as well as for American manufacturing. He also serves
    several industry associations, such as the Aerospace Industries
    Association Board of Governors, the National Association of
    Manufacturers, and the General Aviation Manufacturers
    Association.
        Mr. Hutter holds a Bachelor of Science degree in systems
    engineering and operations management from the School of
    Engineering and Applied Science at Wharton Business School of
    the University of Pennsylvania. He also is a graduate of Penn's
    Jerome Fisher Management and Technology Program.
        So thank you for joining us here today.
        Our next witness is Mr. Bill New. Mr. New is the founder,
    owner, and president of New Industries, LLC, located in Morgan
    City, Louisiana. Mr. New has led the company since its founding
    in 1985. Prior to that, he worked as a structural and project
    engineer for Mobil Exploration and Production and Mobil
    Research and Development.
        Mr. New is an active volunteer, having served as president
    of the Foundation for the Louisiana School for Math, Science,
    and the Arts and currently as Co-Chairman of the Capital
    Campaign. He also has been a Board Member of the Catholic
    Foundation of South Louisiana and a longtime leader in the Boy
    Scouts of America, where he earned the rank of Eagle Scout in
    1973.
        Mr. New currently resides in Louisiana with his family. Mr.
    New holds a Bachelor of Science in ocean engineering from
    Florida Atlantic University and completed the Owner/President
    Management Program at Harvard Business School.
        So thank you for being here today, Mr. New.
        Our next witness is Ms. Alice Frazier. Ms. Frazier is
    president and CEO of Potomac Bancshares and Bank of Charles
    Town, located in Charles Town, West Virginia. Ms. Frazier has
    more than 32 years of banking experience with Cardinal
    Financial Corporation, BB&T, and Middleburg Financial
    Corporation. Prior to that, she worked for 4 years in public
    accounting with national and regional firms.
        Ms. Frazier is currently serving as Vice Chairman of the
    Independent Community Bankers of America and has previously
    served as their Executive Committee as secretary. She also
    serves on the Federal Reserve Bank of Richmond Board and is a
    past Chairman of the Virginia Association of Community Banks.
        Ms. Frazier has a Bachelor of Science degree from Radford
    University and is a graduate of the Stonier Graduate School of
    Banking and the USC Graduate School of Bank Investing.
        Thank you for joining us today, again. And I look forward
    to hearing from all of you.
        And now I recognize the Ranking Member from New York, Ms.
    Velazquez, to briefly introduce our last witness appearing
    before us today.
        Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        I would like to welcome Ms. Molly Moon Neitzel, the founder
    and CEO of Molly Moon's Homemade Ice Cream, in the Seattle
    region.
        Molly Moon's opened in 2008 when Ms. Neitzel left her
    career as a political consultant and founder of the nonprofit
    Music for America to follow her dreams and her sweet tooth as a
    main street businesswoman. Now, Molly Moon's has nine
    locations, $12 million in revenue, accolades in national
    publications, and a cult following in the Seattle area.
        Ms. Neitzel is also a founding Member of Main Street
    Alliance, a small-business coalition advocating for pro-small-
    business policies, including healthcare, childcare investment,
    paid family and medical leave, women's entrepreneurship
    promotion, and capital access, among others.
        Ms. Neitzel holds a bachelor's degree in journalism from
    the University of Montana.
        Welcome, and thank you for testifying today.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you.
        And we appreciate all of you being here today, again.
        And so, before recognizing the witnesses, I would like to
    remind them--we have some rules around here--that oral
    testimony is restricted to 5 minutes in length. If you get over
    that, you will hear a little of this--[gavel tapping]--and that
    means that your time is up. And if you see the light turn red
    in front of you, it means your 5 minutes has concluded and you
    should wrap up your testimony.
        So, with that in mind, I now recognize Mr. Hutter for his
    5-minute opening remarks.

    STATEMENTS OF KARL HUTTER, CEO, CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER, CLICK
         BOND, INC., ON BEHALF OF THE NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF
     MANUFACTURERS; BILL NEW, PRESIDENT AND OWNER, NEW INDUSTRIES,
     ON BEHALF OF THE NATIONAL OCEAN INDUSTRIES ASSOCIATION; ALICE
    FRAZIER, PRESIDENT AND CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER, BANK OF CHARLES
         TOWN, ON BEHALF OF THE INDEPENDENT COMMUNITY BANKERS
      ASSOCIATION; AND MOLLY MOON NEITZEL, FOUNDER AND CEO, MOLLY
        MOON'S HOMEMADE ICE CREAM, ON BEHALF OF THE MAIN STREET
                                ALLIANCE

                        STATEMENT OF KARL HUTTER

        Mr. HUTTER. Good morning, Chairman Williams, Ranking Member
    Velazquez, and Members of the Committee. My name is Karl
    Hutter, and I am the CEO of Click Bond, an engineered products
    company in Carson City, Nevada.
        And Click Bond is a family business and one very much built
    on innovation. My parents founded the company in 1987,
    combining my dad's inventive genius with my mom's manufacturing
    background and business acumen. And today our adhesive-bonded
    fasteners are used in aviation, marine, defense, industrial
    settings around the world and even beyond, in space. And like
    many small and medium manufacturers, we are an integral part of
    the manufacturing supply chain and, in our case, of the
    nation's defense industrial base.
        However, companies like Click Bond face significant
    challenges, often stemming from Washington itself. American
    businesses now shoulder a staggering $3 trillion annually in
    regulatory costs, disproportionately impacting manufacturers.
        Unfortunately, small companies get hit twice--first with
    unworkable regulations that apply to us directly and then, as
    well, with compliance and reporting requirements that larger
    firms are forced to pass down.
        Well, fortunately, Congress and the Trump administration do
    have the opportunity to reverse course. You can do that with
    commonsense reforms such as: unwinding outdated chemicals
    reporting requirements that force us to look backwards in time
    and deep into our supply chains; and preventing unnecessary EPA
    roadblocks in State and local permitting; and in rolling back
    costly energy and labor mandates. These policies would go a
    long way toward lifting barriers on manufacturers and their
    growth.
        And, additionally, comprehensive permitting reform must be
    a priority. A predictable, streamlined permitting process will
    unlock manufacturing growth and drive new job-creating
    investments across this country.
        So, just as with regulations, our industry is facing
    significant uncertainty, cost, and burden thanks to expiring
    tax policies. To say the least, 2017 tax reform was rocket fuel
    for Click Bond. The new 21-percent corporate tax rate allowed
    us to raise wages for our production employees, invest in
    capital equipment, strengthen our employee tuition support
    program, and accelerate the timeline for constructing a new
    facility. The new 20-percent pass-through deduction likewise
    empowered our suppliers and partners to reinvest in their
    businesses, readying them to support our growth.
        But the key tax provisions began expiring in 2022 and 2023,
    and this is already harming manufacturers. It is now more
    expensive for Click Bond to conduct R&D, the very lifeblood of
    both our product and our process innovation. It is more
    expensive for us to purchase capital equipment, the very tools
    that will unleash the productivity of our team. And it is more
    expensive for us to finance job-creating investments, such as
    that state-of-the-art sustainable manufacturing facility.
        And more tax hikes are looming at the end of this year,
    including the halving of the estate tax exemption, which will
    force many family businesses to hold back on investments or
    contemplate selling pieces of their company to satisfy an
    unjust tax bill.
        Recent National Association of Manufacturers research found
    that failing to extend pro-manufacturing tax policies could
    cost the U.S. nearly 6 million jobs and $1 trillion in lost
    GDP. And that is an outcome, Mr. Chairman, that we can't
    afford. If Congress wants to preserve American innovation,
    ingenuity, and competitiveness, inaction is simply not an
    option.
        So, look, despite these challenges, I want to remain very
    optimistic, as I am, about the future of Click Bond and
    manufacturing in the United States, particularly for our small
    businesses. At Click Bond, we are ready to seize this moment,
    translating the pace of innovation and the strong global demand
    for aerospace products into job growth and export
    opportunities. The same story holds true for the small and
    medium manufacturers across our supply chain.
        As a family business, we are ready to invest--and to
    reinvest--in growth, R&D, and capital equipment to generate
    excellent careers that lift our communities, while deploying
    modern, sustainable manufacturing processes.
        And, finally, as a Member of our nation's defense
    industrial base, we are proud to do this work in service of
    strengthening our country's security and its readiness.
        Congress has a critical opportunity to right-size the
    regulatory landscape, put an end to permitting delays, and
    protect manufacturers from devastating tax increases. I
    encourage you to seize this opportunity, empower manufacturers,
    and strengthen America. Because when manufacturing wins,
    America wins.
        Thank you, and I look forward to your questions.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you very much, Mr. Hutter. Right
    on time. Thank you.
        And now I recognize Mr. New for your 5-minute opening
    remarks.

                         STATEMENT OF BILL NEW

        Mr. NEW. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member Velazquez,
    and Members of the Committee. I appreciate the opportunity to
    testify today.
        This is my first time testifying in front of a
    congressional committee, so I may stumble a little bit. Public
    speaking is not one of my strong points.
        But I am Bill New. I am the founder and the owner and the
    president of New Industries. We are a south-Louisiana-based
    steel fabricator. We build process equipment for the oil and
    gas industry, subsea equipment for producing in deepwater. We
    also build pressure vessels and things used in process plants,
    refineries, petrochemical. And we also build some agricultural
    processing equipment as well. So, basically, we cut, bend, and
    weld the steel.
        And, you know, I have been at it--I started the company in
    1985, quit my job working for an oil company. I was 28 years
    old. As most of us are when we are 28 years old, we think we
    are bulletproof and we know everything. About 2 years later, I
    figured out I didn't know anything. But, to that point, it was
    too late, so--so, been at it ever since.
        You know, I think a big misconception about the oil and gas
    industry for most people, the general public certainly, is
    that, when they think of oil and gas, they think of the
    Chevrons and the Exxons and the Shells and the BPs, but, for
    all those great big companies--and they are all customers of
    mine--you know, there are a whole lot of companies like New
    Industries, you know, small businesses that fabricate, that
    build equipment, that provide services both on shore and
    offshore. And that is really the heart of the oil and gas
    industry, is those small businesses that make it all happen.
        The oil companies, comparatively, don't actually employ
    that many people. They spend the money, but sometimes they are
    almost more like bankers than actually operators.
        And so it is very important to, you know, encourage oil and
    gas. You know, we have been through a period over the last 4
    years of issues with permitting, with lease sales. And,
    already, the new administration has already turned some of
    those things around.
        But it just takes time, you know. And the projects
    typically--a lot of projects we work on have horizons of 5 and
    10 years from the time they discover--even before they
    discover, drill the first well, until it is on production, and
    spend billions of dollars. And if we don't have consistency in
    leasing and consistency in regulation, those projects never get
    started.
        Because if you award a lease to one of the major oil
    companies today in deepwater, it will be at least probably 3
    years before they actually drill a well, because there is a lot
    of preliminary work to be done. And then, once that well is
    drilled, assuming that it is a discovery, then it will be
    several more years getting it developed, building the
    equipment, building the facility. And so that consistency of
    regulation is so important to the industry and certainly
    important to New Industries.
        Same thing with tax policy, you know. We certainly took
    advantage of the accelerated depreciation when that was there.
    We spent a lot of--invested a lot of money in equipment, big
    equipment--cranes, plate rolls, you know, big pieces of
    machinery. But it is a lot easier to pay for them when I can
    deduct the full cost of depreciation in the first year. It
    certainly helps pay for them.
        So I urge you to just continue along this path. And I am
    looking forward to the next 4 years. Our customers are much
    more optimistic since the election. Projects that had been on
    hold, I hear, now suddenly we are talking about moving forward.
        And so, you know, we are a project-based business. If our
    customers are not drilling new wells, developing new
    facilities, building new process plants, adding on to process
    plants, there is no work for us. You know, I am not like
    Walmart; I can't generate incremental sales with price. I can't
    put welders on sale this week and sell any more. I mean, if my
    customers need one, you know, they will buy it; if they don't
    need it, it doesn't matter what my price is.
        And so we are looking forward to the next 4 years. I think
    it is a pretty exciting time to be in our industry.
        Thank you.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you very much.
        I now recognize Ms. Frazier for her 5-minute opening
    remarks.

                       STATEMENT OF ALICE FRAZIER

        Ms. FRAZIER. Thank you, Chairman Williams and Ranking
    Member Velazquez and Members of this Committee.
        I am Alice Frazier, CEO of Bank of Charles Town, a 154-
    year-old community bank with $877 million in assets, serving
    markets West Virginia, Maryland, and Virginia.
        I testify today on behalf of the Independent Community
    Bankers of America, where I am Vice Chairman.
        This hearing is well-timed for the new Congress and
    administration, which I can assure you has brought new hope for
    the communities I serve. The optimism is unmistakable.
        Small-business loans are almost 90 percent of our
    portfolio. And, in aggregate, community banks extend a
    disproportionate number of small-business loans, especially in
    smaller markets. We serve small businesses with customized
    products and personalized services that can only be provided by
    locally-based, on-the-ground lenders. We lend based on
    firsthand knowledge of our customers and our communities. That
    is what sets us apart from larger, out-of-market competitors.
        And, importantly, my bank is a small business, as defined
    by the SBA, and within the jurisdiction of this Committee. We
    are a small business helping small businesses. The same is true
    of thousands of community banks, many of which are family-owned
    just like the local coffee shop on main street.
        Many community banks, like my bank, are also SBA lenders,
    and we share with this Committee a commitment to protecting the
    integrity of the SBA guaranteed loan programs with stability in
    its products and services.
        Today, I want to talk about the remarkable resilience and
    the new optimism I am seeing in our markets and focus on a
    couple of proposals from our agenda for the new Congress, which
    is attached to my written statement.
        You see, the phones are ringing again with small businesses
    in my footprint eager to expand with community-bank credit. My
    written statement contains a compelling story of a restaurant-
    supply company seeking credit to meet demand from new and
    upgrading restaurants. It is an example of growth based upon
    business optimism.
        And our small-business lending capacity could be further
    enhanced by regulatory and tax relief. Today's market optimism
    is based upon an expectation of new policies that will spur
    economic growth and job creation. It is our job to deliver on
    that expectation.
        Top of mind for community banks and small-business
    borrowers is the destructive impact of Section 1071 of Dodd-
    Frank Act, which requires community banks to collect granular
    and invasive data on small-business loan applicants.
        Small-business lending is not and should not be a
    commodity. Underwriting is based on numerous borrower
    characteristics and market variables, and loans are typically
    customized to give borrowers the best chance of success. The
    data collected under 1071 will not reflect the full scope of
    underwriting and may suggest discrimination where none exists.
        Bank examiners are really best positioned to make this
    judgment in the application of fair lending and CRA laws.
    Section 1071 is simply the wrong tool for this job.
        Lenders will respond by standardizing loan features to
    protect themselves from charges of discrimination. But please
    keep in mind, minority and women borrowers, whom this rule is
    supposed to help, often benefit from that customized lending.
        With the new Congress and administration, you have an
    opportunity to revisit and this time fully repeal Section 1071.
    ICBA strongly supports and thanks Chairman Williams for his
    1071 Repeal to Protect Small Business Lending Act. We ask
    Members of this Committee to support this critical bill.
        A few other ICBA priorities for this Congress include
    updating regulatory thresholds so that community banks are not
    subject to regulations designed for the largest of banks. And
    doing so will create regulatory relief that will allow us to
    better serve our customers.
        And in the coming tax debate, we urge permanent extension
    of the deduction for pass-through business income under Section
    199A. The loss of this deduction would amount to a steep tax
    increase for the vast majority of small businesses, including
    nearly 1,500 Subchapter S community banks.
        Thank you for allowing the community-bank perspective, and
    I am happy to answer any questions you may have.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you very much.
        And I now recognize Ms. Moon Neitzel.
        And I heard, when the Ranking Member introduced you, ``$12
    million worth of ice cream.'' That is a lot of ice cream. So I
    am anxious to hear about that. Okay.

                    STATEMENT OF MOLLY MOON NEITZEL

        Ms. NEITZEL. Thank you, Chairman.
        Chairman Williams, Ranking Member Velazquez, and Members of
    the Committee, I am honored to be here today.
        My name is Molly Moon Neitzel, CEO of Molly Moon's Homemade
    Ice Cream in Washington State. I am also a founding Member of
    the Main Street Alliance, which represents over 30,000 small
    businesses nationwide, and a proud Member of MomsRising.
        At Molly Moon's, we employ about 200 people across 9 ice
    cream shops, and our products are sold across our region. Next
    week, we will begin construction on three more locations, in
    part funded by SBA loans. We are a growing, thriving business.
        Today, we have been asked to highlight some of the real
    challenges facing small businesses and what you all can do to
    improve the health of the small-business economy.
        But the title of this hearing, ``Hope on the Horizon,'' and
    this Committee's statement that President Trump's policies put
    America first are at odds with the reality that the President's
    current and proposed actions are gutting the engine of the
    American economy--main street businesses.
        His policies have disadvantaged small businesses against
    our larger competitors in the Tax Code and created instability
    for the nation's biggest and best job creators. Small
    businesses created 65 percent of all new jobs in the past
    decade. We are the foundation of the U.S. economy.
        But there are concrete ways this Committee can support Main
    Street America.
        First, our Tax Code isn't working for main street
    businesses. We need to fix the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act to target
    199A deduction relief to smaller operators, not just big
    corporations. And the IRS must be fully funded, not gutted, in
    order to enforce the law and ensure the giant companies and the
    wealthy people who run them pay their fair share.
        Second, let's use the revenue from fair enforcement of the
    Tax Code to invest in a national childcare system, paid family
    and medical leave, and affordable healthcare.
        At Molly Moon's, we invest $1,000 per month toward
    childcare for each employee's child, and the returns have been
    tremendous. Since launching this program, we have seen a rise
    in parents able to work full-time and apply for promotions into
    management because they can now afford the childcare to work
    during our busiest hours. We have even had babies brought into
    this world because women who worked for us realized they could
    afford to grow their families with reduced childcare costs
    factored in.
        The ROI on this workforce stabilization has been huge--and
    the babies are real cute--but, as much as I love leading on
    this issue, we do it because Congress has failed to create a
    childcare infrastructure that supports our nation's workforce.
        Third, every small-business owner I know and every business
    in America is incredibly concerned about a global trade war and
    the general chaos-creation policies we have seen in the federal
    government in the last few weeks. Being so worried about what
    is coming next and trying to safeguard against it has negative
    impacts on our operations, profits, and communities.
        Small businesses depend on each other and many other
    businesses around the world. We depend on a functional Small
    Business Administration and sound economic policies.
        But any tariffs--and even the threats of them--will
    increase costs, raising prices even higher for families,
    raising inflation again. This is the opposite of President
    Trump's and many Republicans' campaign promises to America.
        As just one example, a quarter of all the produce consumed
    in the U.S. is grown in Mexico, and an ice cream shop,
    restaurant, or grocery store will be devastated by a 25-percent
    tax on those fruit and vegetable costs.
        Extrapolate that one example over all small businesses,
    most of whom operate in the global economy for ingredients,
    parts, or their whole product, and we are driving toward
    recession.
        We don't need a global trade war to destabilize our economy
    or more tax cuts for the biggest corporations. We need a fair
    Tax Code, stable economic policies, and a healthy, available
    workforce so that main street and small businesses can thrive.
    With your help, I hope a bright future for small business is
    possible.
        Thank you, and I am happy to answer any questions from the
    Committee.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. The lady yields back.
        We will now move to the Member questions under the 5-minute
    rule, and I recognize myself for 5 minutes.
        Ms. Frazier, small businesses have faced unprecedented
    economic challenges, such as inflation and rising interest
    rates, which threaten their ability to access capital. As you
    all well know, access to capital is essential to any growing,
    aspiring business.
        Yet, instead of helping Main Street America, under the
    Biden administration, the CFPB implemented the 1071 rule, which
    you mentioned, which put an even heavier burden on small
    financial institutions that were struggling to keep up with
    rising interest rates.
        So I recently introduced the 1071 Repeal to Protect Small
    Business Lending Act, which would immediately repeal CFPB's
    small-business-killing rule.
        How would an immediate repeal of the 1071 rule ensure that
    community banks can continue providing affordable lending
    options to small-business owners?
        Ms. FRAZIER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I can give you an
    example of the impact.
        There are over 81 different data decision points that we
    would need to collect and decide upon in evaluating or just
    taking the application. And when I think about my bank and the
    number of loans that were small businesses in the past 2 years,
    it was over 237 loans, for $140 million. Multiply that, each
    one, by 81 points that we need to first make a decision upon
    and collect and then report upon.
        And so the only way that that could be possible is to
    continue to evaluate technology and use of AI, which then
    doesn't focus us on the conversations or building the
    relationships or giving the advice and counsel many small
    businesses need.
        So I hope those give you some illustrations of what that
    impact would do for us.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. Absolutely.
        Mr. New, in the final days as President, President Biden
    sought to ban offshore oil and gas leases in vast offshore
    areas. If not for President Trump issuing several executive
    orders on his first day in office to repeal these efforts, the
    ban would have covered more than 625 million acres,
    representing the largest withdrawal of offshore oil and gas
    leases in U.S. history.
        So how will President Trump's actions help your industry
    thrive and meet the demands of the offshore oil and gas sector?
        Mr. NEW. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        You know, it is really about having access to lands to
    drill. Unlike onshore, where a lot of the oil and gas
    production is on private land, in the federal offshore waters
    it is all federal lands. So it depends on the federal
    government to basically be the landowner, the judge, the jury,
    and the executioner. So, when there are not leases available,
    my customers don't have opportunities to drill.
        And, you know, I say it is a pipeline. So it is not just
    the lease today. Because if you lease today, it is going to
    be--you know, it may be 10 years before there is production.
    But there are a lot of activities that have to go on to get to
    that stage. And if we are not leasing today, we are not going
    to have those activities over the next 10 years and that
    production.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. Great.
        I have a limited amount of time, so, Mr. Hutter, let me
    just ask you a short question here. Can you explain how
    dangerous and overbearing regulations have impacted your
    business?
        Mr. HUTTER. So I think that one of the things to always
    remember for our smaller businesses particularly is, certainty
    goes a long, long way. And while, I think, you know, we don't
    argue against regulations that make the rules clear and, you
    know, work toward goals of making our people safer and the
    impacts that we make on our communities only positive ones, I
    would say, generally, regulations need to be thought of in
    terms of their clarity, in terms of their workability, and in
    terms of making sure we don't put in constraints on things that
    get out over the skis of science.
        And let me explain real quickly on that one. When it comes
    to things like materials--PFAS restrictions, for example, I
    think is a good one--there are things in our defense supply
    chain that simply don't have substitutes. In the healthcare
    sector, it would be similar to the ethylene oxide restrictions
    that are being considered, right? There is no similar
    disinfectant gas.
        And when you talk about products that have a certification
    cycle that lasts the better part of a decade, having a sudden
    need to swap a key component or material in your product and
    then put the recertification and test requirements on top of
    that that are necessary to ensure that, well, if you are making
    something that is going in an aircraft engine to a civil
    airliner, that we are all safe and secure aboard that airplane,
    look, there are things that make that nearly impossible.
        So I would just really say that it is important to be very
    clear on what the reality science- and technology-wise is
    before we go and put forward a regulation demanding the
    impossible.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you.
        My time is up.
        I now recognize the Ranking Member for 5 minutes of
    questions.
        Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Ms. Neitzel, President Trump reentered office on promises
    to immediately lower egg prices. However, in the past week, the
    national average warehouse delivery price for conventional
    large white eggs rose to $6.70 per dozen from $5.87 on January
    20th when he took office.
        Any comments on that?
        Ms. NEITZEL. Yes. Egg prices have risen. There is also an
    egg shortage in America.
        The instability in food prices is only going to get worse
    as we understand more about the trade war. And restaurants and
    ice cream shops and grocery stores operate on the thinnest
    margins of most main street businesses. We simply can't afford
    prices to increase in any of our cost of goods.
        Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Thank you.
        On Saturday, President Trump enacted a 25-percent tax on
    goods from our trade allies Canada and Mexico and a 10-percent
    tax on goods from China. The nonpartisan Peterson Institute
    reports that these taxes will spike up our inflation and cut
    our GDP over the next few years.
        Mr. Chairman, I request unanimous consent to enter the
    report into the record.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. So ordered.
        Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Ms. Neitzel, you state that these tariffs
    will cost you $100,000 extra on ice cream cups and containers
    alone. Will you be forced to pass this cost on to consumers?
        Ms. NEITZEL. Yes. If these tariff go through, I will have
    to raise my prices.
        Ms. VELAZQUEZ. And we all know that, 2 business hours into
    Monday, President Trump paused his tariffs on Mexico.
        Was that chaotic for your business? How harmful was that
    tariff?
        Ms. NEITZEL. Yeah, that was very chaotic. We are wondering
    where fruit and paper products are going to come from and how
    we will make up the costs.
        Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Ms. Neitzel, President Trump is placing the
    richest man in the world and the owner of several large tech
    corporations, Elon Musk, in charge of the federal government
    without the guardrails of typical federal employment.
        Do you think this will make federal agencies pay more
    attention to the needs of small businesses like yours or
    bigger, wealthier corporations?
        Ms. NEITZEL. It will absolutely make the federal government
    pay more attention to bigger corporations.
        Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Mr. Musk had the highest-ranking civil
    servant at the Treasury Department removed for their reluctance
    to give him unrestricted access to a sensitive payment system
    used to pay out more than $6 trillion a year in Social
    Security, Medicare, government contract payments, and tax
    reforms.
        Are you comfortable letting this unelected man have this
    data on federal payments to you and your fellow Americans?
        Ms. NEITZEL. No. Every person I have talked to in the last
    2 weeks and especially the last 2 days--every American is
    scared of Elon Musk being given the keys to our government.
        Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Thank you.
        The federal government has increasingly used continuing
    resolutions to fund vital programs, rather than more stable
    yearly budgets. As a small-business owner who receives services
    from the SBA, is this approach to public-service funding
    helpful?
        Ms. NEITZEL. No.
        Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Why not?
        Ms. NEITZEL. I wish that Congress could work together to
    pass real budgets that are longer-term and intentional, with
    the priorities of main street businesses at the heart of the
    concern.
        Ms. VELAZQUEZ. So here we are. We always say that certainty
    is so important for small businesses in order to plan ahead,
    and yet the federal government cannot provide that certainty.
        Regarding the type of immigrants who have work permits, the
    President issued an executive order to deport those immigrants.
    What effect will that have on main street small businesses?
        Ms. NEITZEL. Losing farmers who have work permits in the
    United States will devastate the food system in America. We
    need those workers in order to feed our families and our
    children.
        Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Thank you.
        I yield back.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you, Ms. Velazquez.
        She yields back.
        And now I now recognize Ms. Van Duyne from the great State
    of Texas for 5 minutes.
        Ms. VAN DUYNE. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
        And I want to thank all of our witnesses for joining us
    today.
        Mr. Chairman, I ask for unanimous consent to submit for the
    record the Prime Minister of Canada's statement announcing
    border protections in direct response to President Trump's
    proposed tariffs.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. So ordered.
        Ms. VAN DUYNE. We have heard some conversation this morning
    how bad tariffs are, but the fact is that what we have seen
    over the last several days is that we have had countries--
    Canada, Mexico, Colombia--that have actually agreed now to help
    us, the United States, with a number of different things, from
    securing our borders to preventing fentanyl deaths. I think
    those are really important, as opposed to just looking at how
    much we are going be able to save on a grapefruit.
        You know, I have heard some criticisms this morning on Musk
    and how he is not running our typical federal government
    programs. I am going to ask anybody: Have our typical federal
    programs and how we have typically been running the federal
    government helped any of your businesses? Or has it gotten us
    into $36.22 trillion of debt and a $2 trillion deficit?
        We added $1.4 trillion of regulations the last 4 years onto
    our small businesses. And, Ms. Moon, I am assuming that you
    appreciate the additional $1.4 trillion of extra money that
    businesses are having to spend, including and especially small
    businesses.
        I have also heard how dangerous it is that Mr. Musk, who is
    an advisor to an elected President, how dangerous his
    regulations are and because he is an unelected person.
        Does anybody know how many bureaucrats in our government,
    in our agencies that are making these decisions, how many of
    them are elected?
        Ms. Moon?
        Ms. NEITZEL. He has not been confirmed by Congress.
        Ms. VAN DUYNE. He is an advisor to the President. It is not
    part of the Cabinet, not necessary for confirmation.
        But even people who are confirmed are not elected. But what
    we have seen is, so many of these bureaucrats over and over
    again are making the decisions. And, a lot of times, we pass
    laws but the regulations that these agencies are putting out
    don't even reflect the intent and sometimes are in direct
    conflict with our laws. And none of them are elected.
        And I think what you have seen is the American public is
    sick of it. They want to have a difference in how government is
    typically run, for those exact reasons.
        I appreciate you being here. Look, I love ice cream, and I
    am happy that you are contributing, you know, to our economic
    growth. But I think we also need to get real here. And as we
    kick off the 119th Congress, we have an incredible opportunity
    right now to undo many of the harms that have been done to
    small businesses by the Biden-Harris administration and we can
    enact meaningful pro-growth reforms.
        And, you know, we saw a recent report from the National
    Association of Manufacturers that revealed that if the Trump
    tax cuts are not renewed, that in Texas's 24th District alone
    27,000 jobs and $2.6 billion in wages and $5.3 billion in GDP,
    just in Texas's 24th District, are at risk.
        So, Mr. Hutter, as the CEO of a manufacturing company, what
    tax policies are most important to small businesses like yours?
        Mr. HUTTER. Sure. No, thank you for the opportunity.
        I think I would choose to focus first on something that
    demands immediate attention because it has already expired, and
    it is the inability to no longer expense--the inability to any
    longer expense research and development.
        It is important for everyone to remember that R&D, while we
    tend to think about that as being the research behind the
    amazing new products that America is famous for, it is really
    also about the amazing new processes that America is famous
    for. And one of the things that we are absolutely best at and
    makes this country the most competitive is our innovation
    around manufacturing.
        And so, at a time when we really are enjoying low
    unemployment and we have an opportunity to get even greater
    value deployed for our country through the amazing talent on
    our teams, what do we need? We need to have the ability to
    invest in capital equipment that unleashes their capability and
    puts new productivity in the hands of our people. And we need
    to have incentive--or, at least, the removal of disincentive--
    to invest in that very research and development that creates
    the new processes that will utilize that equipment, those
    tools, and enable that talent.
        The upshot of all of this is not just continuing to
    preserve and strengthen American competitiveness economically,
    supporting our defense industrial base--always something I am
    happy to talk about--but, most importantly of all, it is an
    opportunity to raise wages, to actually raise the value of the
    work that great American talent is doing.
        Ms. VAN DUYNE. Oh, I love that. And nowhere in there did I
    hear you say that we needed to have more regulations.
        Mr. HUTTER. No.
        Ms. VAN DUYNE. In a response to concerns that I have heard
    from small businesses in north Texas and actually around the
    country, I reintroduced yesterday the Small Business Regulatory
    Reduction Act. And I am looking forward to looking at those
    costs of regulations to small businesses and require that the
    SBA ensure that the regulations are cost-neutral.
        And, with that, I yield back.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. The lady yields back.
        And I now recognize Mr. McGarvey from the great State of
    Kentucky for 5 minutes.
        Mr. MCGARVEY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate that.
        Mr. Chairman, let me also start off by offering my
    condolences and our prayers to you and everything you are going
    through. We have been thinking about you a lot. It is good to
    be back here.
        Ms. Moon, appreciate you being here today. In 1942, it was
    Winston Churchill who wrote to the British Wartime Minister of
    Food that Americans are, quote, ``great addicts of ice cream,
    which is said to rival alcoholic drinks.'' I am born and raised
    in Kentucky, and I would just say, why can't we love both?
        But I think there has been a lot of really good points
    brought up here today, and I want to address a few of those.
    Because, in this particular instance, I do think there is a
    link between what you are experiencing with your ice cream
    business and what we are seeing at our distilleries in Kentucky
    as a result of the Trump tariffs and the chaos that he has
    thrown the economy into.
        There is--in Kentucky right now, we see it--bourbon has to
    be made in America. Ninety-five percent of the world's bourbon
    is made in Kentucky, but it just has to be made in America. We
    also get 100 percent of the good stuff. But it is not going to
    incentivize new manufacturing in America to do this.
        We saw this in the first round of tariffs. The retaliatory
    tariffs placed on American products like bourbon cost hundreds
    of millions of dollars to my State.
        These don't just impact a company's bottom line. This is
    everybody, from the farmers who grow the corn, the coopers who
    put it in the barrel, the union workers who put it in the
    bottle, the truck drivers who take it to the store, the stores
    like yours that sell the product, the consumers who buy it. It
    is harmful to everyone down the line.
        And what we are seeing right now with these tariffs and
    what they have resulted in, throwing our economy into--it is
    not over. It is not over. It is just a pause right now. There
    are people who are going to bed in Kentucky going, what is
    going to happen to the economy? What is going to happen to our
    business?
        And what do we get for it? All the reports are really
    modest, not much. Donald Trump has erased billions of dollars
    in market capitalization, throwing districts like mine into
    chaos, with these tariffs, but there is not a lot of actual,
    real new behavior from a place like Canada. Canada seized 43
    pounds of fentanyl on the border last year. The Canadian papers
    and other places are sort of running that we lost the deal on
    this.
        What we want in this Committee and what I have enjoyed
    about the nature of this Committee is the bipartisan nature of
    it, that we actually want our small businesses to flourish.
    What every congressional district here has is an economy that
    is driven by small businesses. We want those to work.
        So, when we talk about these tariffs and the impact that
    they have on small businesses--you started to hit on this. I
    know you get a lot of your products locally sourced from the
    Pacific Northwest, but you can't get it all from there,
    correct?
        Ms. NEITZEL. Correct.
        Mr. MCGARVEY. And so do you have to buy coffee or chocolate
    or other things from other countries?
        Ms. NEITZEL. We buy sugar, chocolate, coffee and tea, and
    paper products from outside of the United States.
        Mr. MCGARVEY. And you said this would have a $100,000
    impact on your business alone in selling ice cream.
        Ms. NEITZEL. That is just if there were tariffs on our
    paper products. Yes.
        Mr. MCGARVEY. Just on the paper products. Expanding beyond
    that, it is going to be even more of an impact.
        Ms. NEITZEL. Correct.
        Mr. MCGARVEY. A question I honestly don't know the answer
    to: Do you think--you talked about you would have to pass this
    on to the consumers. What does that actually do to your
    business? Do the consumers absorb all that cost?
        Ms. NEITZEL. Yeah. So, when food prices are higher in
    America, it makes people go out to eat less often. I am very
    dependent on people going out to dinner and then walking down
    to the ice cream shop afterward. The small-business economy is
    especially intertwined with each other. So vegetable costs at
    the restaurants down the street matter just as much to me as my
    own cost of goods. And I am extremely worried about
    restaurants.
        Mr. MCGARVEY. Yeah. And so I think we see the impact, the
    ripple effect this has and will have on your employees.
        And, of course, I love what you are doing with childcare. I
    truly wish we were doing more with childcare in Congress. We
    need to. That is absolutely an economic development tool as
    well as a crisis that we have in this country, not having
    enough childcare.
        But when this impacts a business like yours, it impacts
    other businesses, it impacts your employees, it impacts the
    childcare you are providing, and I think we see the ripple
    effects. So I appreciate that and hope we can continue to
    provide some relief for small businesses up here.
        Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
        I now recognize Mr. Ellzey from the great State of Texas
    for 5 minutes.
        Mr. ELLZEY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I send my
    condolences to you and your family, as well, for the loss of
    your bride.
        Mr. Hutter, welcome to our hearing. As an aviator myself,
    would you tell me what exactly--let's say, what is your premier
    part that goes into an aircraft that we would all know?
        Mr. HUTTER. Well, we manufacture about 5,000 parts that go
    into the engine, the cells of every Boeing 737 and Airbus A320,
    Boeing 787 and A350. Of course it contains and surrounds the
    engines.
        Mr. ELLZEY. And you created this part and are the sole
    proprietor of it as a small business. Nobody does what you do.
    Correct?
        Mr. HUTTER. You know, we are proud to have quite a few
    things that have been both IP-protected but also trade-secret-
    protected. And we maintain those positions by just being the
    best.
        Mr. ELLZEY. Okay.
        So what is an example of a regulation that has held back
    your business from growing? Because aviation is highly
    regulated, because it is all about safety. We are not going to
    discuss what has happened in the last week. But that is why the
    regulations are so high. Are there some that are unnecessary
    and too cumbersome for you?
        Mr. HUTTER. Yeah, no, it is a great question. Of course,
    you know, thank you for the reference to the tragedies of the
    last week. It was a reminder of why regulations not only are
    not all bad, they are really critical for us to deliver the
    safety record that we have in this country.
        But there are some that, as I mentioned earlier, just don't
    make sense or are pretty unworkable, if not impossible, for
    small businesses. You know, our businesses are small, but they
    are great ones, too, if we can be allowed to get to the work
    that we have been set out to do. And there are a great number
    of regulations--and I am thinking of some that even are born of
    SEC regulation----
        Mr. ELLZEY. Uh-huh.
        Mr. HUTTER.--okay? Previously we had the conflict-minerals
    source tracing. We have the opportunity to potentially see
    something similar in some of the greenhouse-gas-emissions
    regulations. It is the chance to let's, you know, get this
    stuff right and do it in a way that is workable.
        And where I am headed here is, you have got regulations
    that are targeted at and made the responsibility of publicly
    traded companies or large companies like our customers, and
    whether they are right, wrong, or indifferent at that level,
    here is what happens at my level: The reporting requirements,
    the data collection requirements that come rolling down through
    the supply chain--and 60 to 70 percent of the aerospace supply
    chain, civil and defense, is not at those big names that you
    see on the stock ticker; they are at companies like ours, small
    businesses. And just the effort to go get the data and feed it
    back upstream to serve those compliance needs requires, you
    know, a team that I don't have.
        And the people that would go to do that kind of analytical
    and research work are the very same talent on my lean, mean
    team that would otherwise be focusing their efforts on
    improving our production and scheduling, our reliability, our
    economy, maybe even our direct impact to our employees around
    safety or around environmental responsibility. And, instead,
    they are off on this, you know, research project supporting a
    regulation that I don't even know that the government knows
    what it is going to do with the data.
        Mr. ELLZEY. And they don't know the second-, third-order
    effects. If you go out of business, we don't make 737s. It is
    as simple as that.
        Mr. HUTTER. No, sir. And I think that that reaches across
    some of these things like availability of certain materials,
    the stability of energy supply.
        Mr. ELLZEY. Yeah.
        Mr. HUTTER. We had better understand what we are doing
    before we shut off the tap on something that could bring things
    to a stop real fast.
        Mr. ELLZEY. It sounds a lot like the banking for the
    community banks. I mean, if you just changed the wording just a
    little bit, it sounds exactly the same way.
        And, Mr. New, we are just about out of time. So it sounds
    like--I know, in your industry, this same kind of regulations
    have an effect.
        Ms. Neitzel, I want to thank you for being here. I am an
    addict of ice cream. I can't wait to try the Yeti.
        I just want to point out that--you are talking about a
    shortage of eggs. The Trump administration has been in power
    for less than 2 weeks. There is no shortage of eggs because of
    Donald Trump. It is bird flu and the requirement to kill a lot
    of chickens that has caused a shortage that has been ongoing
    for several years in the United States now. It has nothing do
    with tariffs--which, I might add, are not actually in effect.
    It was a negotiating point.
        But I would also like to add: Let's be clear, I mean, I am
    extremely impressed with your desire to start a business. I
    wish I could start an ice cream business. But keep in mind,
    there are consequences for choices that you make. For instance,
    you know, you don't--do you allow police in your store if they
    are armed?
        Ms. NEITZEL. I do.
        Mr. ELLZEY. You do? But you didn't in 2020, correct?
        Ms. NEITZEL. Correct.
        Mr. ELLZEY. Okay. Well, there are consequences for not
    allowing cops in the CHOP area, which ended up devastating your
    business. So I think we ought to keep in mind cause and effect
    in small businesses, and some of those choices you made prove
    to harm your own business.
        So thank you.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
        I now recognize Mrs. McIver from New Jersey for 5 minutes.
        Mrs. MCIVER. Thank you so much, Chair and Ranking Member.
        And thank you to all of the witnesses for being here today.
        And, Mr. Chair, I offer my condolences to you and your
    family as well and my prayers to you all.
        We all know that small businesses are the backbone of the
    American workforce and the driving force behind the American
    Dream. We have heard many of our witnesses talk about that
    today and many Members of Congress talk about that. In my
    district alone, thousands of small businesses thrive, employing
    tens of thousands of hardworking individuals, many from
    minority, women, and immigrant communities.
        Just 2 weeks ago, one of my small businesses experienced an
    unjust raid by ICE agents, resulting in the arrest of three
    employees and the detention and questioning of several others.
    This raid created widespread fear within the entire community,
    disrupted business operations, and imposed undue hardship on
    the establishment and the dedicated workers there.
        I spoke to this community this morning, the leader, one of
    my council members and mayor of this community, and they
    indicated to me that about a 25-percent to 30-percent drop they
    have seen in the small business--in the small businesses--you
    know, folks coming in to support small businesses and shops and
    the locals there, which speaks to this is a very thriving
    community on small businesses. It is definitely a hardship. I
    mean, it has created so much of a fear that people are scared
    to come outside in this community.
        And, Ms. Neitzel, you talked about it when our Ranking
    Member asked you about what does it mean when, you know,
    immigrants are not showing up to work on farms and they are not
    coming to work, and you talked about, you know, the impact it
    would have on our food systems.
        But can you elaborate a little bit more on what the profit
    margins would be--the impact on the profit margins themselves
    for small businesses because of such?
        Ms. NEITZEL. If farmers can't get their employees to come
    to work because they are so scared of ICE raids, then
    restaurants and grocery stores and ice cream shops won't have
    the produce that we need to make our products. If we don't have
    what our customers want, like that Yeti ice cream, we are not
    going to have customers walking in our doors. It will bring the
    entire small-business economy to a halt.
        Mrs. MCIVER. Correct. Thank you for that. And I am sure,
    like I mentioned about my East Ward community in the city of
    Newark already experiencing that, when folks are not coming in
    to shop and support small businesses.
        I just want us all to think about this from both sides of
    the aisle as we begin our work here in this new Congress--that
    seems like it has already been 25 years in this new Congress
    already, but only a couple of weeks in--that it is imperative
    that we prioritize the protection of all businesses and the
    individuals who contribute to their success.
        Safeguarding their well-being is essential to maintaining
    the strength of our local economies and preserving the
    opportunities that small businesses provide.
        So thank you so much.
        And with that, I yield back.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. The lady yields back.
        I now recognize Mr. Alford from the great State of Missouri
    for 5 minutes.
        Mr. ALFORD. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Again, our sympathies to
    you and your great family down in Texas, running a great small
    business there, for the loss of your Patty.
        Thank you to our witnesses for being here today. Appreciate
    that.
        This committee stands as a staunch advocate for Main Street
    America. If we do not champion main street interests, we risk
    losing the small businesses that are integral, part of the
    fabric of America.
        Small businesses spent the last 4 years under attack from a
    lethal combination of inflation and overregulation. This
    committee is here to assure small business owners that these
    attacks are over. The Trump administration and a unified
    Republican Congress are here to fight for you, to ensure that
    everyone can live the American Dream.
        Throughout President Biden's term, federal agencies
    finalized more than 1,000 regulations, costing small businesses
    more than $1.7 trillion--$1.7 trillion. That is the same as the
    entire federal discretionary budget for fiscal year 2023.
        It is unacceptable that federal agencies can put this
    burden on the taxpayers of this country. And with Elon Musk in
    charge of the Department of Government Efficiency, we will end
    the federal government's attack on businesses.
        Through a letter dated February 3, and here in this very
    committee room, Ranking Member Velazquez and committee
    Democrats have raised concerns about DOGE being granted access
    to Small Business Administration systems. Well, with all due
    respect to the Ranking Member, who is now leaving this
    committee room, this is exactly what Americans voted for last
    November 5.
        The American people are sick and tired of unelected and
    unaccountable bureaucrats wasting billions of dollars--taxpayer
    dollars. The PPP and EIDL programs wasted hundreds of billions
    of dollars in potentially fraudulent COVID loans. Estimates
    vary, but most agree that over $200 billion was fraudulent.
        The American people elected President Trump to clean up the
    corruption and waste in Washington. Maybe, just maybe, if
    committee Democrats joined the majority last Congress in
    investigating SBA's lax fraud controls and nearly nonexistent
    efforts to reclaim taxpayer dollars, then DOGE would not need
    to now go inside the SBA.
        I am also enthused that President Trump has ordered federal
    workers back to their desks in the offices just down the street
    here. As we saw on our visit to the SBA more than a year ago,
    employee attendance was meager at best. As Chairman of the
    Subcommittee on Oversight, I will be working with Ranking
    Member Tran to ensure maximum efficiency and transparency by
    the SBA.
        With 2 minutes left, Ms. Moon Neitzel, a couple of
    questions for you.
        How much is the price of an ice cream cone in your shop, a
    small one? Let's just start with a small one.
        Ms. NEITZEL. A single scoop is $6.95.
        Mr. ALFORD. $6.95. If the tariffs go into effect, what is
    the estimated price increase you will have to make on that
    product?
        Ms. NEITZEL. I have no idea, because I----
        Mr. ALFORD. Can you take a guess?
        Ms. NEITZEL. Nope.
        Mr. ALFORD. $7.25? Is it going to go up a dollar?
        Ms. NEITZEL. Could be.
        Mr. ALFORD. A dollar.
        Do you know why the tariffs are being used right now as a
    tool by President Trump? It is to shut down the illegal and
    illicit fentanyl that is coming to our country from Mexico and
    Canada that is killing more than 300 of our fellow citizens
    each and every year.
        Ms. NEITZEL. All 43 pounds of it from Canada.
        Mr. ALFORD. I would submit to you that the threat of a
    tariff to stop this illegal drug trade--and, yes, most of it is
    coming from Mexico--is worth the added cost of an ice cream
    cone in America.
        Ms. Moon Neitzel, do you hire any illegal aliens?
        Ms. NEITZEL. I don't know.
        Mr. ALFORD. You don't know? You could be hiring illegal
    aliens?
        Ms. NEITZEL. We check the paperwork as per regulation.
        Mr. ALFORD. But you think some of them might be illegal,
    here illegally?
        Ms. NEITZEL. I don't know.
        Mr. ALFORD. Why should any employee or any illegal alien be
    working in America to begin with?
        Ms. NEITZEL. Every American deserves a job.
        Mr. ALFORD. Every U.S. citizen or every person who lives in
    the Americas?
        Ms. NEITZEL. Every American deserves a job, sir.
        Mr. ALFORD. I will take that as a U.S. citizen.
        Why should anyone who is here with legal status be fearful
    of any ICE raids?
        Ms. NEITZEL. The fear and intimidation of these ICE raids
    reaches to every American citizen, as well as the folks they
    are looking for.
        Mr. ALFORD. Well, I think, if you are here legally, you
    have no reason to be fearful. And I do believe that a small
    increase in the price of ice cream is worth an American life.
        So thank you. And I yield back.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
        I now recognize Mr. Cisneros from the great State of
    California for 5 minutes.
        Mr. CISNEROS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I, as well, want
    to send along my sympathies to you and your family for your
    loss.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you.
        Mr. CISNEROS. January 24 the SBA updated its small business
    contracting goals for the fiscal year 2025. Under President
    Trump, SBA requires agencies to award at least 5 percent of all
    contracts to small disadvantaged businesses. That is down 15
    percent from the Biden administration.
        Other Trump administrative targets include 5 percent for
    all federal prime contracts going to women-owned small
    businesses and 5 percent to--all federal prime contracts going
    to service-disabled veteran-owned small businesses, 5 percent
    of all prime contracts going to a HUBZone, historically
    underutilized business zones, 3 percent. These HUBzones are in
    my district, including the cities of El Monte, Covina, Azusa,
    La Puente, and more.
        So, Ms. Frazier, given these decreased targets, what advice
    would you have for a small business--small disadvantaged
    business--looking to secure capital, as well as for veteran-
    owned small businesses and women-owned small businesses?
        Ms. FRAZIER. Thank you.
        I would like to think that there are opportunities
    continued beyond maybe just those contracts. We actually are a
    bank for government contractors. Many of them do take advantage
    of the 8(a) and are able to use that to grow their revenues.
    And some also partner up with some that are not 8(a) to be able
    to deliver their services and their products from that
    perspective. So while the numbers may be down, I think the
    opportunities for revenues continue to grow.
        Mr. CISNEROS. Well, but the likelihood is, is that if these
    small disadvantaged businesses are not going to receive as many
    contracts, then banks are probably going to be less likely to
    lend to them, right? The same thing as well as our women-owned
    businesses and veteran-owned businesses, if they are not going
    to get as much government contract business as they did in the
    past possibly. There is that possibility as well.
        Ms. FRAZIER. I think the loans that they apply for are also
    relevant to the size of their business at the time. And so
    sometimes--all government contractors ebb and flow with their
    revenues and the contracts that they win, and so loan sizes
    also increase and decrease relative to that.
        Mr. CISNEROS. Well, but I think, again, as it goes, the
    least likely of their business decreasing because, as we said,
    if they are going to get less business, the chance of them kind
    of having to downsize means the possibility of less capital for
    their businesses.
        But with that, I will move on.
        Ms. Neitzel, I just want to commend you for your commitment
    to childcare. The investment that you have made with your
    business to benefit your employees I think should be commended,
    and it should really be a model for other businesses.
        So how could we as a committee, how can we as a Congress
    help you and other businesses like you that are making this
    investment? And as you stated in your testimony, I do think we
    need to invest in childcare across the country.
        But how can we help small businesses like you help their
    employees to make them better businesses?
        Ms. NEITZEL. You can help by creating a national childcare
    program that is cost saving because of scale.
        Putting a child in daycare in Seattle costs between $2,500
    and $3,000 a month. That is far more than most of my employees
    pay in rent or mortgage payments. So me investing $1,000 a
    month isn't even covering their costs.
        But if we had a national childcare system that provided
    subsidies or a robust childcare facility system like most other
    developed nations, we could scale the--lower the cost per
    child, scale the program, and stabilize the entire American
    workforce, allowing more women, in particular, to fully
    participate in the American economy.
        Mr. CISNEROS. Thank you for that answer. And as you stated
    also, the tariffs, the negative effect it is going to have on
    your business, with the raising of prices. And my State of
    California and my community down in southern California have
    been devastated by fires.
        Many of the businesses--one of the businesses in my
    district relies on products that they have to come from other
    countries, one of them being Canada, the other being Mexico.
    This is going to hurt their business. Lumber, a large amount of
    lumber that is now going to be needed to rebuild southern
    California, the cities of Altadena, Pacific Palisades, that is
    going to hurt the builders.
        And with that, I yield back.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
        I now recognize Mr. Finstad from the great State of
    Minnesota for 5 minutes.
        Mr. FINSTAD. Thank you, Chairman Williams, for holding this
    important hearing today.
        And thank you to the witnesses for taking time and being
    here.
        I would also like to take a moment, Mr. Chairman, to extend
    my condolences to you on the loss of Patty, and just I want you
    to know that I continue to pray for you and your family.
        I am honored to serve here on the Small Business Committee
    for the 119th Congress. As a small business owner myself and
    one of the very few real farmers that gets to serve in
    Congress, I know firsthand the impact that heavy-handed,
    burdensome regulations have on our small business owners.
        Over the last 4 years, main street businesses have been
    fighting to keep their doors open, dealing with the impacts of
    inflation, misguided regulations, supply chain issues, and an
    administrative state that does not put their priorities first.
        I am looking forward to the opportunity to make lasting
    changes that will allow our communities in southern Minnesota
    and across the country to thrive.
        With that being said, Mr. Hutter, you talked in your
    testimony about the regulatory state, permitting reform
    possibly needed. And last Congress, I was proud to have led the
    passage of a bipartisan bill called the PROVE IT Act, which
    gives our small businesses a seat at the table and a voice in
    the regulatory process.
        Do you feel like right now you have a voice in that
    process? Do you have an opportunity as we pass these well-
    intended laws in Congress, the administrative state implements
    their rules and regulations, and they come to you and say here
    are the hoops and loops you have to jump through and walk
    through and hide under to comply, do you have a voice in that
    process? Do you have an opportunity to express your additional
    cost and the burdensome regulatory state that that puts on your
    business? Do you have a voice at that table?
        Mr. HUTTER. Well, first off, I apologize, I am not familiar
    with the act, but it sounds like a good one in the sense of
    giving that input.
        We really rely largely on our manufacturers associations,
    our aerospace industries association to try to be the
    interlocutor.
        We would love to have more of a direct line of sight to
    that. And I think a good place where that shows up are things
    where we see that expansion and that rollout of more and more
    on the regulatory side.
        We are keeping a close eye, I should say, on some of the
    EPA regulations, particularly around the New Source Review. And
    I just choose that one because as we look to revolutionize and
    modernize and grow our manufacturing processes, you have a
    scenario that traditionally was pretty lean and mean where
    these types of small emitter permitting would happen at the
    local level, the municipal level.
        And now we are seeing potentially the EPA nose under the
    tent to get involved in things that are only going to add a
    federal layer to that as well in a scenario that seems
    completely unwarranted.
        So there is an example of something I would raise my hand
    and say: Is this really a good idea?
        Mr. FINSTAD. Yeah. Thank you for that.
        And so, as you know, business owners across the country
    have been tasked to comply with numerous regulations, and it
    has had a major impact on their bottom line. As has been stated
    earlier, $1.7 trillion over the last 4 years affecting small
    businesses.
        With your business specifically, can you give us a rough
    estimate of how much time and resources have you had to
    allocate towards compliance efforts in the last 4 years?
        Mr. HUTTER. Well, the irony, of course, being that taking
    even more time to calculate that just puts bad on top of bad.
    But it is hundreds of thousands of dollars a year.
        And I say it is not just the dollars, it is the scarce
    resources for talent who have to be redeployed to doing these--
    I call them intern projects, if you will--as opposed to really
    working on the business. But for a company our size, it
    actually, we would say, over the last 4 years, ranges into the
    millions, to be sure.
        Mr. FINSTAD. Yeah. So as a small business owner myself, I
    don't have a stable of lawyers or compliance officers or
    regulatory experts to help me through that, so it definitely
    costs our family business money.
        So with what you have just stated, what would you do in
    your small business with those dollars if you were able to
    deploy them in other ways?
        Mr. HUTTER. That is pretty simple. We are heavy believers
    in reinvestment, and those dollars that weren't going to hiring
    an outside consultant or distracting our folks to go run the
    compliance activity would be going into direct impact for
    either our team and our business actually working on improved
    safety, working on improved quality, working on improved
    productivity and efficiency that is going to win tomorrow.
        So the dollars would be put as direct lead on target for
    the things that matter to make us more competitive and more
    successful in our mission.
        Mr. FINSTAD. Yeah. Thank you for that.
        And, Ms. Neitzel, I just have to say thank you on behalf of
    the dairy farmers in southern Minnesota and across this
    country. Keep selling ice cream.
        And, Mr. Chairman, this body was built on ice cream and bad
    decisions.
        So with that, I yield back.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. From what I can see, I think you are
    right.
        [Laughter.]
        Chairman WILLIAMS. Next, I would now recognize Mr. Tran
    from the great State of California for 5 minutes.
        Mr. TRAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I, too, would like
    to share my condolences with you and your family on your loss.
        I look forward to working on this committee under your
    leadership and the Ranking Member's leadership and working with
    my colleagues here on this committee.
        I grew up with a small business background. My parents had
    their own corner market. So the small business and being part
    of this committee is very important to me, so important that I
    believe that small businesses are the heart and soul of our
    community and the heart and soul of our economy.
        I started a pharmacy and my own law practice, a small
    business, before coming to Congress. So appreciate being on
    this committee.
        So my first question goes to Ms. Neitzel.
        Access to health care is still a barrier to
    entrepreneurship for Americans looking to take a leap of faith
    and start a small business. How would you expand healthcare
    through Medicaid and the ACA? How do you think that would help
    inspire entrepreneurs to join the business community?
        Ms. NEITZEL. Thank you for the question.
        I do a lot of mentoring of young women and young people in
    general looking to start their own companies, and a huge
    barrier to starting innovative and helpful new businesses in
    our economy is that the entrepreneurs who have the great ideas
    can't leave their jobs because of healthcare.
        If we had a national single-payer system that took care of
    every American, it would free up that intellectual and
    inspirational sort of heart of the American Dream.
        Mr. TRAN. Thank you.
        Ms. Frazier, can you discuss what your financial
    institution is doing to help close racial and gender
    disparities in access to small business capital?
        Ms. FRAZIER. Oh, I would be happy to. Thank you.
        We actually work together with three other financial
    institutions to start what we called a Banking on Diversity
    loan program. Well, it actually ended up only being three
    institutions, not four altogether. One was purchased.
        Ultimately, we put out into the marketplace $1.5 million of
    zero interest rate loans to help minorities and those that were
    early stage businesses overall. So revenues were under a
    million. Most of the businesses were under a year old. And to
    date, I am really excited at the success of that program and
    how those businesses have grown.
        Mr. TRAN. Thank you for that.
        Mr. Hutter, you have previously spoken about the shortage
    of skilled workers in this country, and your firm has partnered
    with local community colleges to operate jobs training
    programs.
        Can you discuss the importance of career and technical
    education in addressing that shortage?
        Mr. HUTTER. Sure. Absolutely. And it is part of our story
    of really being a high-tech manufacturer coming to northern
    Nevada in the late 1980s and a community that built its economy
    on gaming and tourism at that time, and we have been proud to
    be part of that revolution. And part of the key to making that
    happen has been the partnership with our local educational
    institutions.
        And I will say, as important as it is in our business to
    have bachelor's degreed and advance degreed folks, particularly
    in the technical side of things, it is even more fundamental to
    have folks with the skills to be able to serve at kind of the
    technician level. And we really turn to those partnerships with
    our local community colleges for that, and they are essential.
        Mr. TRAN. Thank you.
        As a follow-up to that, do you think that more investment
    is needed in trade education, STEM education, to maintain and
    expand the workforce?
        Mr. HUTTER. Yes, I do believe that that is critical, and it
    can come from a few different directions. But a key aspect of
    that is really being done in a context of engagement with
    industry.
        So we make sure that the investment in curriculum and the
    investment in laboratories and whatever it may be actually
    matches the needs of business, and we have found that to be a
    really great partnership. But we definitely support them.
        Mr. TRAN. Thank you so much.
        Mr. Hutter, Mr. New, Ms. Frazier, Ms. Neitzel, thank you so
    much for being here with us.
        And with that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
        Mr. LALOTA. [Presiding.] The gentleman yields.
        I now recognize Mr. Downing from the great State of Montana
    for 5 minutes.
        Mr. DOWNING. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        And thank you to our witnesses here.
        So over the past 4 years, Montantans have watched as the
    Biden administration did everything it could to put energy
    producers in our State and around the country out of business.
        They almost succeeded. Coal, oil, natural gas producers
    have been holding on by a thread as radical Green New Deal
    activists and the EPA and BLM revoked leases for mines and
    extraction facilities. They closed off vast swaths of federal
    land to energy production and introduced rules and regulations
    specifically tailored to shut down these companies.
        Now, this anti-energy stance had a negative impact outside
    of the energy sector. Small businesses, especially in
    manufacturing, require reliable access to cheap energy to make
    their products and operate successfully.
        Now we are entering into a brave new world as
    cryptocurrency, blockchain, artificial intelligence integrate
    further into every sector of the economy. Our energy
    infrastructure and production capacity are nowhere near the
    size they need to be to manage this technological expansion.
        Now, unleashing American energy production is a priority
    for the Trump administration, and I look forward to working
    with them to do just that.
        So my first question to Mr. New--and thank you for being
    here--over the past 4 years have you seen a decline or a
    slowing of growth in your business due to the anti-oil-and-gas
    leasing policies of the Biden administration?
        Mr. NEW. Certainly our customers have slow-walked projects,
    they have canceled some projects because they couldn't get
    permits. They were uncertain about the future and didn't--
    wouldn't invest.
        And today, just this morning, I read one of our customers,
    a project that they have been talking about for about 5 years
    now, they just announced that they are probably not going to go
    ahead with that project now because it drug out so long that
    this was an oil export terminal--their main customer bailed out
    because it was taking so long.
        Mr. DOWNING. So would approving more leases for oil and gas
    production in the Gulf of America, as the Trump administration
    has promised, improve your potential for growth?
        Mr. NEW. Absolutely. Our customers have to have access to
    leasing.
        Mr. DOWNING. Okay. Mr. New, access to capital is a
    significant issue for many small businesses, especially in the
    energy sector.
        Now, have you seen a decrease in capital access for your
    business or others in the energy sector due to a lack of
    regulatory certainty? And, if so, how has this regulatory
    uncertainty affected your business?
        Mr. NEW. Yes, I have seen it directly, particularly in some
    of the larger banks. Banks that I have done business with for
    many years basically told me that: Bill, we love you, we love
    your business, you do a great job, but you are an oil and gas
    business, we can't lend to you anymore.
        Mr. DOWNING. Yeah. Thank you, sir.
        Mr. Hutter, thank you for being here.
        Joe Biden and Gary Gensler's SEC and woke reinsurance
    companies have tried to shut down companies through the back
    door rather than the front door using ESG to restrict access to
    capital at the expense of small business.
        Now, how has this harmed your business? And how can
    Congress make improvements?
        Mr. HUTTER. I am not really in a position to comment on
    that directly because we haven't experienced the effects of
    that.
        I know that we have small businesses, smaller than us by
    far, in our supply chain, and I would just broadly say that
    their access to capital and their access to the things that
    make them successful are critical to me as well. But no direct
    experience.
        Mr. DOWNING. Well, thank you.
        I just, as a former securities and insurance regulator,
    have seen a lot of this happening, so I appreciate that.
        So I just want to thank you all for your testimony.
        The past 4 years have been a relentless struggle for
    American energy producers. But with the Trump administration
    prioritizing domestic energy dominance there is a reason for
    renewed optimism.
        And the testimonies today have made it clear: Energy
    security is economic security. It is national security. And
    moving forward, we must cut through the regulatory red tape
    stifling small business, especially those in manufacturing and
    energy production.
        Now, I look forward to working alongside my colleagues in
    Congress and the Trump administration to get this done.
        Thank you. I yield my time.
        Mr. LALOTA. The gentleman yields.
        I now recognize the gentleman from Maryland, Mr. Olszewski,
    for 5 minutes.
        Mr. OLSZEWSKI. Thank you very much.
        I first want to just join this committee and all the
    Members in sharing my condolences with the Chair and
    surrounding he and his family in our prayers.
        Thank you all for making the time to travel.
        Ms. Neitzel, I am looking forward next time for you
    bringing samples for us to have while we are here, please.
        I just want to open, I have had a chance to listen quite a
    bit, just two quick observations.
        I know there has been a lot of back-and-forth about
    unelected bureaucrats both Democrats and Republicans have
    leveraged here. I just hope that as we go about our work that
    we can agree on things like Congress' fundamental power of the
    purse, our legal authority to establish change and eliminate
    departments.
        And I just hope that as we have those conversations,
    conversations that I welcome, that we do it through the well-
    established democratic processes that this country has been
    founded on for a very long time.
        As it relates to tariffs, I just want to remind, especially
    relative to Canada, we are talking about in fiscal year 2024,
    1.5 percent of all apprehensions at the border were on the
    northern border, just 1.5 percent. The last 3 fiscal years, the
    amount of fentanyl that came from the northern border was less
    than 1 percent of all fentanyl seized.
        And so if we are willing to exchange a 25 percent increase
    on goods for that, I guess we should expect those numbers being
    zero in the upcoming year, but we will see what happens there.
        Mr. Hutter, I know on Congressman Tran's question you spoke
    about and I really appreciate your engagement with community
    colleges and STEM and job training programs. Clearly, you see
    the value in those investments.
        I really appreciate also your conversation about engagement
    with industry. Prior to coming to Congress, as Baltimore County
    executive, we both made our community colleges absolutely free
    to any family making $150,000 or less.
        We also partnered with the nursing and healthcare industry
    to create a nursing pipeline program that actually, for
    Democrats, we would say we knocked down barriers to
    opportunity, we invested in things like childcare,
    transportation, and housing. Perhaps from a Republican
    perspective you can say we helped people pull themselves up by
    their bootstraps.
        But would you say that if we engage in those conversations
    and find those gaps, those are the kinds of investments that we
    in Congress might want to continue to make to help make more
    opportunities for your workforce?
        Mr. HUTTER. Yeah. I think yes. And I would want to make
    sure to capture that this is as much or more also an obligation
    and responsibility of business itself. And it has been very
    much that partnership of the investment we put into our own
    training and development for folks, and I think it is a key
    piece that differentiates us and makes us a great place to work
    and attracts the best talent.
        But that happens in a context where we want to hire from
    our community versus draw people in from far and far away. We
    want to build our community as we go.
        And so I do think that it is all in the doing. But from a
    concept standpoint, of course, having a strong commitment in
    the community to the education and the training and, I would
    say, the overall uplift in the tone around the nobility of
    skilled trades is really critical.
        Mr. OLSZEWSKI. That is great. I appreciate that question
    and hope to bring that forward as my time here in Congress
    continues.
        And then, Ms. Neitzel, I just will conclude with a question
    for you.
        Congratulations on the new shops that are coming. I know
    that they, as you have testified, are funded in part with SBA
    loans.
        I just wanted to give you a minute, minute and a half here.
    Any feedback that this committee might have in terms of what
    your interaction has been like, what we might want to know to
    help make sure that other businesses who are looking to do
    similar work can have access to it?
        Ms. NEITZEL. This was my first time using this SBA loan
    program. I started my company with sort of friends and family
    investors and have just gone through a community bank without
    the guarantee of the SBA to grow my company for the last 17
    years. So this is my first experience, and it has been fine.
        I was listening to Ms. Frazier's testimony and thinking
    there are opportunities, I think, for us to chat about ways
    that both Main Street Alliance and Ms. Frazier and her banking
    organization could talk about bipartisan ways to maybe make it
    a little smoother.
        It has been a very complicated process, and I loved her
    comment about the 81 data points. I have felt each of those 81
    questions deeply.
        But the access to the capital and a stable SBA have been
    critical to my business' next phase of growth.
        Mr. OLSZEWSKI. That is great.
        Well, I welcome the opportunity to work with both of you if
    we can find those improvements in the years ahead.
        With that, I yield. Thank you.
        Mr. LALOTA. The gentleman yields.
        I now recognize Ms. King-Hinds from the beautiful Northern
    Mariana Islands for 5 minutes.
        Ms. KING-HINDS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I join the
    Members in expressing my condolences to the Chairman.
        Thank you to all the witnesses for your testimony today and
    for making time to be with us.
        Under SBA definitions, all businesses in my district, the
    Northern Mariana Islands, are small businesses. That is why I
    am so grateful to serve on this important committee, so I can
    speak about their challenges here in the 119th Congress.
        Businesses in my district operate in one of the most remote
    parts of our country. This geographic isolation drives up
    operating costs, limits access to customers and capital. And in
    recent years, we have seen a growing sense of hopelessness--
    some would say straight-up despair--because our primary
    industry, which is tourism, has yet to recover from the impacts
    of COVID-19.
        Testimonies today cited a 2023 study of the National
    Association of Manufacturers which found that federal
    regulations cost an estimated $12,800 per employee across all
    sectors of the U.S. economy, and this highlights some of our
    challenges.
        To put that figure in perspective, in my district, that
    would suggest that the cost of regulatory compliance in the
    Northern Marianas is 38 percent of our total gross domestic
    product and 25 percent of all business revenue made in the
    islands.
        What makes this so challenging is, despite the many one-
    size-fits-all regulations, there is no one-size-fits-all
    application of benefits for small businesses in my district.
    For example, while SBA has made significant investments in the
    CNMI in response to natural disasters and the pandemic, in
    programs like the SBA's Restaurant Revitalization Fund, my
    district had the lowest approval rate in the nation, with
    nearly 90 percent of applications denied.
        Despite the dire need for capital among entrepreneurs,
    participation in SBA's flagship 7(a) Loan Guarantee Program is
    far below national averages.
        It is clear that the federal government must do more to
    recognize and address the realities of businesses in isolated
    communities like mine. National policies already create
    challenges for small businesses, but for places like the CNMI
    these challenges are magnified.
        As this committee looks to support President Trump's effort
    to unleash small businesses in our community, I ask that we
    take a critical look at how Congress can do more to support the
    unique needs of these businesses in areas like the CNMI and do
    our part to break away from one-size-fits-all policies on
    funding, capital access, labor, and market access.
        It is around 2 a.m. now from where the people that I
    represent live. We are 15 hours ahead of Washington, D.C. And
    when the sun comes up in the mainland it is nighttime back
    home.
        In many ways, our horizons are different. I have seen the
    data that many businesses in the United States have rebounded
    from the pandemic and have grown beyond it. Unfortunately, the
    same cannot be said for the Northern Marianas.
        I do believe, however, that hope is on the horizon, and I
    ask for this committee's partnership to make sure that despite
    the distance and the obstacles, when hope does make it over the
    horizon it is something that we can all celebrate.
        So I am here trying to be a better champion for the people
    in my community, and I guess I am looking to champion policies
    that address rural, isolated communities like mine. And so this
    question is to you, Ms. Frazier.
        One of the biggest issues for businesses in my district is
    access to capital. Traditional banking models often struggle to
    serve high-cost, low-volume markets in sparsely populated areas
    like the CNMI.
        In your experience, how can federal policy better support
    community banks in small population centers so they can extend
    capital to businesses that are viable but geographically
    disadvantaged?
        Ms. FRAZIER. Thank you for that question. I am going to
    answer that with two fronts, if I may.
        You spoke about the one-size-fits-all regulation and how it
    impacts the small businesses, and it impacts us when banking
    regulations are one-size-fits-all, and it puts us in boxes and
    makes us have to operate very similar to much more out-of-
    market, larger competitors.
        What you have indicated is your businesses need that
    personal relationship. They need that ability to have a banker
    that they can work with and help them with a customized
    product.
        SBA, with a guarantee or not, it is how do those cash flows
    come into that business, how can the bank help them support it
    when they need it the most. So the tiered regulation,
    recognizing thresholds, would be critically important for us.
        And I am going to go back to the 1071, because if applied
    the way it is intended or the way it is now currently written,
    forget the 81 data points. It says that we have to separate the
    person from the decision. And so the person that is actually
    working with the client, understanding their business, is not
    part of the decision, and that can really impact the ultimate
    outcome.
        Ms. KING-HINDS. Thank you for that.
        Going back to these one-size-fits-all regulations, do you
    see a disproportionate impact with regards to rural banks in
    your experience?
        Ms. FRAZIER. I do. I have the great benefit of visiting
    several States over the past year and meeting a lot of bankers,
    and I have met a bank that is running off of seven employees.
    Imagine trying to implement these regulations with seven
    employees, but they are serving a tiny, tiny community with all
    that they need. And so it is unbearable for them to bear that.
        Ms. KING-HINDS. All right. Thank you.
        Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.
        Mr. LALOTA. The gentlelady's time has expired.
        I now recognize the gentleman from New Jersey, Dr. Conaway,
    for 5 minutes.
        Mr. CONAWAY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        And thank you, witnesses, for presenting yourself to us
    today.
        As I have listened to the comments today, I have to say I
    am a little bit surprised about the criticisms of the prior
    administration with respect to job growth. We have 21 million
    businesses that were created, the largest number in any single
    Presidential term, 440,000 establishments per month, 90 percent
    faster than during the pre-pandemic era.
        We have growth--I know this is of concern to some in the
    administration--but business ownership among Black households
    doubled, a 30-year high business ownership for Latinos, a 30-
    year high in business ownership for Asian Americans as well.
        And we have seen that, while certainly inflation was a
    challenge, it is--well, you have to except food and energy
    now--we are getting down to more normalized inflation in this
    country as well.
        So things are pretty strong. When you compare us to Europe,
    we are well ahead of them. Our economy is the envy of the world
    when you compare it to other people. In fact, China is
    experiencing deflation now.
        And so I think certainly we want to make sure that our
    small businesses continue to thrive. Ninety percent of the jobs
    are created by small businesses in this country; they are, and
    we hear it all the time, the backbone of our economy. Forty-six
    percent of all employees are employed by small business,
    probably more than that. And certainly a great contribution to
    new job growth.
        So small business is rightly the concern of the American
    people and certainly, rightly, the concern of the Congress.
        I wanted to make a comment. We have heard about tariffs
    this morning as well. And tariffs, whether they have gone into
    effect fully yet or not, we have already seen that businesses
    have taken steps. Some have raised prices because of the
    instability caused by the back-and-forth over tariffs, and
    those prices of course drive inflation.
        We have heard already from our witnesses today and others
    who have spoken from the dais about the costs of inputs that
    will go up.
        California needs to be rebuilt. We heard that from the Vice
    Ranking Member about the need to rebuild California, and the
    wood and the materials that are going to be needed to get that
    job accomplished under a system of the tariffs that are
    proposed, if they go through, are going to raise the cost of
    housing once again. Of course, housing inflation was a huge
    issue for Americans in this last issue.
        In my own State alone, when you look at our relationship,
    trading relationship with Canada, Canada is responsible for
    $17.5 billion to our economy in New Jersey. It is a huge--
    through the bilateral trade agreements and interaction with
    Canada each year in New Jersey alone.
        So a tariff on Canada, which will certainly impact our
    economy in the State of New Jersey, and we certainly don't want
    to see that.
        And, indeed, we have not quite as much with Mexico, but we
    know tariffs are little more than a tax on the American people,
    will raise costs at a time when they are very concerned about
    costs, they want to see costs down.
        This is a promise, I think--I don't want to talk about what
    people voted on this last election. They voted on the promise
    of the government taking on inflation. I don't know how you do
    that exactly in an economy that is not controlled.
        But anyway, that is the promise that was made. People voted
    on that. And let's just hope that we, as we move forward in
    these next 4 years, keep the job growth going and get inflation
    under control.
        Ms. Neitzel, can you speak to us--and you have probably
    done some of this already, and I am sorry if I am repetitive
    here--but you run a small business. You get inputs from in
    country and overseas. Can you perhaps elaborate more or
    reemphasize the impact of tariffs on your own business and the
    cost of your inputs?
        Ms. NEITZEL. Yes. I have spoken a little bit about that.
    But as I said, our paper products all come from overseas, as do
    sugar, coffee, chocolate.
        Another concern that I have is the dairy farm where I buy
    all of our milk and cream is a fantastic family-owned farm that
    is so far north that when I go visit those cows my cell phone
    connects to the Canadian cell towers.
        They grow some of their feed for those dairy cows, and they
    trade constantly with Canada. Our farmers in the Pacific
    Northwest have wonderful long-lasting relationships, trade
    relationships, with our friends and allies to the north.
        Mr. CONAWAY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Mr. LALOTA. Thank you. The gentleman's time has expired.
        I now recognize Mr. Bresnahan from the great State of
    Pennsylvania for 5 minutes.
        Mr. BRESNAHAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and to Ranking
    Member Velazquez, who I am so elated to see that finally cares
    about egg pricing in the United States on day 16.
        But my first question actually is a little bit off of the
    cuff and is for Ms. Moon.
        Ms. Moon, you made reference earlier about the amount of
    fentanyl that was seized at the southern border. What was that
    number again? The northern border.
        Ms. NEITZEL. Forty-three pounds from Canada, sir.
        Mr. BRESNAHAN. Are you aware of how many people would be
    killed if they consumed 43 pounds of fentanyl?
        Ms. NEITZEL. This isn't about fentanyl with Canada; it is
    about bullying and chaos creation.
        Mr. BRESNAHAN. Well, to me, it is about the 12 million
    people that 43 pounds of fentanyl would kill, which is more
    than the population of the State of Ohio, specifically coming
    from someone who lost a 16-year-old cousin because of a
    fentanyl-related situation. So----
        Ms. NEITZEL. I am sorry for your loss.
        Mr. BRESNAHAN. Thank you. And I think when you are talking
    and make comments that it is only 43 pounds, I find that
    incredibly disheartening.
        My next comment would be on the community banking side. I
    come from a small business background. My family was very
    involved in a community bank, and something that really allowed
    our small business to grow was because of our relationships
    with small community banks, having the lending officer, the
    person who truly understands your business, what you are going
    through during the good and the bad.
        What are the biggest risks to community banks right now
    that you would see?
        Ms. FRAZIER. The ongoing regulation. And a couple of the
    points I have talked about is just the impact of not
    recognizing the differences between the banks and the ones that
    you just mentioned that were so important, that tiered
    regulation is critically important, that 1071.
        While I have touched on the data points, I have touched on
    the separation of the decision, it just forces those loans to
    be put much more into more of a database, an AI decision, and
    commoditizing, which I think is really, really impactful and
    hurtful to small businesses, because we do spend quite a bit of
    time coaching, counseling, and helping many of them grow from
    the infancy of an idea all the way through to something much
    larger.
        Mr. BRESNAHAN. Well, I definitely appreciate the role
    community banks play in the entrepreneurship ecosystem. It is
    something that I struggle with and advocated for through
    various different nonprofits that I was involved in through
    tecBridge, which is an entrepreneurship-based board in Junior
    Achievement. And it is those new businesses that are starting
    don't have access to capital.
        And I have had so many entrepreneurs come to me in my last
    life--33 days ago--saying: How do I get a line of credit? If
    they don't have a history of credit they are financing their
    small businesses on top of credit cards.
        What can Congress do to improve the accessibility of
    capital to that startup entrepreneur, truly the American Dream?
        Ms. FRAZIER. We really need to stabilize the impact of
    changing minds and thought processes around the SBA as well for
    those startup businesses, and to also consider through that
    process that the best people, the best way to get those dollars
    implemented are through the community banks, where the
    relationships can be formed, and not through an online business
    that can fulfill the need to get capital but they are not
    helping them grow their business, et cetera. I would say that
    is one way.
        Another way is also improving community banks' access to
    capital, because anytime we raise a dollar, that is ten times
    we can put out, $10 we can put out into the community. So any
    opportunities to impact our access to capital, whether it is
    changing the accredited investor regulations and allowing it to
    be a million dollars, including the house, or in a Sub S, where
    1,500 banks are Sub S, allowing more investors into those.
        Mr. BRESNAHAN. Thank you for that. I think that is going to
    be something that I would like to focus on and inspiring the
    next generation of entrepreneur, but that barrier to enter into
    those markets and grow and expand, just like I am sure Ms. Moon
    had gone through when you were first starting your first ice
    cream shop.
        But that is the American Dream, and it should be
    incentivized. And the burden, the red tape to create your own
    destiny is a very challenging and scary concept sometimes.
        Mr. Hutter, I also come from the highway infrastructure
    background. How have you been able to adapt to tool up with the
    next generation of workforce? And are you seeing a pipeline of
    qualified individuals to offset your growth and operation?
        Mr. HUTTER. Well, the top talent in the world is always
    going to be hard to come by, and we need to make more of it in
    the States. And I think, more directly, we need to unlock it
    more readily.
        Every American talented worker who is in my plant needs to
    benefit from immediate permitting reform, immediate regulatory
    rollback, so that we can actually get their talents out there
    on the shop floor in larger, more capable facilities that can
    allow them to do more for our economy and for their families.
        Mr. BRESNAHAN. Thank you. I yield back.
        Mr. LALOTA. The gentleman's time has expired.
        I now recognize Ms. Goodlander from the great State of New
    Hampshire for 5 minutes.
        Ms. GOODLANDER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am so thrilled
    to be a part of this committee.
        I am grateful to you all for being here today. I am
    grateful to be part of this committee and excited because I
    really do believe that small businesses are one of the most
    hopeful expressions of the American Dream.
        And I say that as the great granddaughter of a family
    farmer, the granddaughter of a serial entrepreneur who started
    out selling airplane rides at the Nashua Airport right down the
    road from where I grew up, and the daughter of a small business
    entrepreneur.
        I have just come back from 9 days all around the great
    State of New Hampshire. And thank you for recognizing it is a
    great State. My district spans from my hometown Nashua all the
    way up to what we call the North Country, the Canadian border,
    nine counties that stretch across my district.
        I spent a lot of time talking to small businesses. And one
    of the throughlines in this hearing so far has been the need
    for certainty for small businesses.
        You said it well, Mr. Hutter, that certainty, it goes a
    long way, and it is mission critical for so many small
    businesses in my State and across this country.
        From the last 2 weeks, one of the big sources of
    uncertainty for small businesses has been the threats of
    federal funding freezes, including following last week's
    memorandum from the Office of Management and Budget to other
    executive actions that have been taken that have really called
    into question the availability of lawfully enacted federal
    funding that reaches our communities.
        This hasn't been abstract. I am hearing from small
    businesses and nonprofit organizations, from mayors, from
    police chiefs, from fire chiefs all across our communities who
    continue to face uncertainty in accessing the federal funding
    that is promised to the people of New Hampshire.
        And so one of the questions I want to ask each of our
    witnesses is, you all rely on and work closely with the Small
    Business Administration and with other federal agencies.
        Starting with you, Ms. Neitzel, could you just tell us what
    communication, if any, or guidance you received from the Small
    Business Administration, or any other federal agency for that
    matter, that helped you navigate questions around the
    availability of federal funding and federal programs?
        Ms. NEITZEL. We work with a small community bank called
    Peoples Bank in Washington State, and all of our communication
    has been with them. We had a really productive conversation
    with the regional small business administrators at the
    beginning of our loan process who were very informative.
        One of the things I want to address about the federal
    funding freeze is that many childcare providers in our
    community are extremely worried about the federal funding
    freeze and worried about being able to pay childcare providers.
    If workers in Seattle and across Washington State can't send
    their kids to those childcare centers, the economy stops.
        Ms. GOODLANDER. I heard from many childcare providers who
    were facing enormous uncertainty from small businesses across
    my district.
        Another source of uncertainty is the threat of a trade war.
    And you have spoken to the real cost of that uncertainty for
    small businesses.
        Look, I believe tariffs are an important tool that can
    create competition in our economy and can do a lot of good, but
    the uncertainty that this has caused for small businesses
    across New Hampshire is just unacceptable.
        I want to turn to something where I think we can all agree
    on. And I was really grateful for your written testimony, in
    particular you, Ms. Frazier, what you wrote about the
    importance of competition in the American economy.
        I spent a good deal of time serving in the Antitrust
    Division of the Department of Justice, and I am very hopeful
    that this is going to be an area where we can agree across the
    ideological spectrum on the need for competition in the
    American economy.
        In your written testimony, you spoke a bit about the
    impacts of consolidation, the impacts on community banks. Could
    you say a bit more about the importance of competition and what
    it does for the bottom line for the American people?
        Ms. FRAZIER. Well, the competition between the banks, I
    think what you find in community banks is that we are all
    working together to better the communities. And if regulation
    continues to persist and grow and grow, it makes it harder and
    harder for community banks to survive and thrive. And
    oftentimes there does continue to be consolidation, and that is
    where I believe communities are really impacted.
        Ms. GOODLANDER. I think it is true across the board, from
    our defense industrial base to, I am sure, the market for ice
    cream in the United States. I see monopolies everywhere, and I
    think this is an area where this committee can do a lot of good
    for small businesses and the American people.
        So with that, I yield back, Mr. Chairman.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. [Presiding.] The lady yields back.
        I now recognize Mr. Meuser from the great State of
    Pennsylvania for 5 minutes.
        Mr. MEUSER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Thank you very much to our witnesses. Appreciate you being
    here.
        So I think it was you, Mr. Hutter, that said there is a
    renewed sense of optimism, thankfully. Over the last 4 years,
    we dealt with inflation in excess of 20 percent, gasoline
    prices through the roof, literally bringing people to tears. An
    overall energy crisis. Prohibitions, some in Pennsylvania, on
    the exporting of LNG for no particular reason.
        Meanwhile, we had a President that thought he only asked
    for a survey to be taken as opposed to a complete prohibition.
        A border crisis that is an absolutely unmitigated disaster
    that includes human trafficking, rape, all kinds of horrible
    things--I have been to the border four times--drugs, death.
    Hundreds of thousands of young people in particular lost their
    lives. Human trafficking even throughout my rural district.
    Wars. Thousands and thousands, tens of thousands of Ukrainians
    and Russians dying. Unrest in the Middle East to no end.
        Small businesses--bringing it back home--small businesses
    having some of the worst times ever, from uncertainty, loss of
    tax relief, the uncertainty of losing the 199A.
        Certainly, if there would have been a different President
    there, it would have been gone. No question about it. Let's
    face it. That is what they stated.
        Manufacturing is on the decline in the United States. It is
    on the upswing in China and other places.
        So all of this going on, and it just can't help but be
    startling to hear my good friends on the other side of the
    aisle talk about how wonderful things used to be and how
    horrible they are going to be, and yet these tariffs haven't
    even gone into effect yet. And yet there is chaos and
    everything else taking place.
        I will tell you what has gone into effect: responses from
    Trudeau and Sheinbaum in Mexico as to correcting some of those
    horrible problems that have occurred. So that has taken place.
        And you know what is also startling to me? And I was in
    international business. I was in business over 20 years. How
    somehow taxing those small companies that became big
    companies--and that makes them evil, by the way--is okay, but
    put a tariff on a small or large business overseas, that is
    awful. That is going to create all kinds of worldwide
    instability and global unrest.
        I think most of us will pay a little more for ice cream and
    guacamole if we have less human trafficking and overdose deaths
    in the United States of America. I think that was resounding in
    the most recent election.
        So let's focus on common sense rather than nonsense
    political posturing that we are hearing here: the importance of
    keeping the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act.
        You, Mr. Hutter, mentioned right at the very beginning
    bonus depreciation is on its way out, it is on the decline.
    199A is gone at the end of this year. And we probably won't get
    Democrat support there. That is why we need to do it in
    reconciliation, which is an outrage.
        The R&D tax credit is on its way--it is gone, completely
    gone. And by the way, China has re-upped their R&D tax credit,
    which you are nodding, you are aware of. They call it a super
    deduction of 200 percent.
        So America first doesn't mean America alone. America first
    means: Why don't we start looking after our American businesses
    as opposed to being this global charity which only weakens our
    United States of America.
        So, Mr. New, we are talking taxes, regulations, and we are
    talking banking. Tell me how important the 199A is, how
    important taxes relief is to you.
        And, Ms. Frazier, I would like you to either tell me as
    soon as we are done here how much of a problem the CFPB has
    been to you--or were they wonderful and they showed up in your
    bank.
        I will start with you, if you don't mind, Ms. Frazier.
        Ms. FRAZIER. Given the size of my bank, they didn't show up
    in my bank. We are under $10 billion. But their new
    regulations, their laws have been quite discerning and quite
    costly to us, as we look at everything. Our compliance
    department overall--we looked at a budget--is over a million
    dollars a year.
        Mr. MEUSER. Great.
        Ms. FRAZIER. Can't pass that along.
        Mr. MEUSER. Do you think the plan moving forward is going
    to help your businesses, gentlemen, or be detrimental?
        Mr. NEW. Well, certainly the lower tax rates and----
        Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman's time is up.
        Mr. MEUSER. I yield back, Mr. Chairman.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
        I now recognize Ms. Morrison from the great State of
    Minnesota for 5 minutes.
        Ms. MORRISON. Thank you, Mr. Chair. And, Mr. Chair, I would
    also like to offer my condolences and deep sympathy for your
    loss.
        Thank you to all the testifiers for being here today. And
    congratulations to all of you for your successful small
    businesses and the important addition that they are making to
    the success of the American economy.
        You know, I am excited to be on this Committee because it
    is known as one of the less partisan committees and more
    focused on problem-solving. And that is why I came to Congress,
    because I want to solve problems. And I hope that, going
    forward, we continue to have a future-oriented problem-solving
    lens as we proceed.
        Mr. Hutter, sincere gratitude to you for helping secure our
    nation's safety through much of the work that your business
    does.
        I hear and appreciate the frustration that comes with
    regulations and administrative burden. I am a physician by
    trade, and I am very familiar, the pain of administrative
    burden that is heaped on physicians, frankly, primarily from
    the private sector.
        So, as we look to streamline the regulatory burden on small
    business, I hope we can agree that a balance has to be struck
    between keeping our people safe by protecting and doing what we
    can to keep our air, land, and water clean.
        You know, Mr. Hutter, you mentioned PFAS, which I think is
    a great example. Because, as we learn new things, we have to
    adapt, we have to be nimble, sometimes we have to change the
    way we do things. And I think most of us agree that we want to
    minimize the amount of PFAS that we continue to pour into our
    water and our land and, by extension, our bodies.
        You mentioned that there aren't good current substitutions
    for some of the PFAS chemicals, some of the properties that
    they have. So, in the short term, I think we need targeted
    exceptions to some of the bans that certain States have been
    enacting--and there is legislation at the federal level as
    well--that gives, you know, time for our innovative research
    universities and entrepreneurs to develop alternatives.
        And I don't expect you to define the specifics around PFAS,
    but I was wondering if you could comment on that balance
    between regulations that protect public health while allowing
    and encouraging businesses to thrive.
        Mr. HUTTER. Sure. And I like the way you framed that.
        I think the key thing that I could say here is:
    predictability, clarity, and workability. And we need to have
    that renovation--revolution, if necessary--to our regulatory
    scheme right now.
        You know, the gentleman, the doctor, mentioned, you know,
    we have had a great recovery--in job growth; manufacturing has
    enjoyed that. Let's not trip ourselves at the starting line
    here, because what comes next is going to define the next 50
    years.
        So we have to--and I call upon all of you, let's really
    auger in on this and find the balance between--I mean, it is
    not a balance. I don't think it is a compromise. We all want
    the same outcomes here. In fact, let's make sure that industry
    is best enabled to invest into the solutions. Let's trust our
    companies to actually put money and talent and innovation
    behind the problems and help us solve them together.
        So I think that if we can agree on some clear, actionable
    regulations, in place of a meandering, ever-growing kind of
    miasma of unclear, unpredictable, ``I don't know if I can
    invest into this cloud or not,'' we are going to see a lot more
    progress a lot faster.
        Ms. MORRISON. Thank you, Mr. Hutter.
        Mr. Chair, I yield back.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. The lady yields back.
        I now recognize Mr. Jack from the great State of Georgia
    for 5 minutes.
        Mr. JACK. Well, thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
        And I want to thank the witnesses for testifying today.
        I am a freshman, and during my last campaign, or, rather,
    my first campaign for office, deregulation was by far and away
    one of the most important things that I heard over and over
    across my district.
        And I have a unique background. From the first day to the
    last day of President Trump's first administration, I worked in
    his White House. And one of the things that he tasked me with
    doing was working across his administration to achieve the two-
    for-one deregulatory cuts that he pledged during his campaign.
    And, of course, he superseded that; he had eight for one. And
    as you may have seen, he signed an executive order, I think
    last week, noting that he wants to do 10-for-1 cuts. For every
    regulation on the books, he wants to cut 10 existing
    regulations.
        So I want to applaud you for walking us through some of the
    areas in which we can focus our deregulatory agenda to achieve
    the economic success that we had in the first administration.
        I want to start, if I could, to Mr. Hutter.
        In your testimony, you referred to the 2017 Tax Cuts and
    Jobs Act. And I know my distinguished colleague from
    Pennsylvania, Mr. Meuser, touched on it just a moment, but you
    mentioned specifically that it was rocket fuel for
    manufacturers like Click Bond. And you also mentioned that the
    pro-manufacturing incentives in the TCJA were key to innovation
    and capital investment.
        And thanks to Chairman Williams for appointing me the
    Chairman of our Subcommittee on Innovation, Entrepreneurship,
    and Workforce Development, I want to highlight that innovation
    component. And I just want to know, could you reiterate the
    importance of the TCJA incentives for small businesses like
    Click Bond in investing in next-generation manufacturing and
    workforce training?
        Mr. HUTTER. Sure.
        Well, the TCJA--like I said, rocket fuel. And we need to
    focus on getting those extensions enacted immediately where
    they did incentivize the very investments in our companies and
    in our capital equipment that puts, really, those effective
    tools in the hands of our talent.
        But I want to go beyond TCJA to say, you know, the R&D
    expensability expiration is an aspect of TCJA, okay? It was
    something we enjoyed for 70 years. And when it comes--prior to
    TCJA.
        So it is not just really the effort to ensure that we
    extend and keep in place those amazing investment incentives
    and the predictability that allowed us to make those
    investments into the long term; we need to bring back the
    expired provisions that have already gone out, especially
    around R&D expensing.
        And if we can do this in a way that, again, delivers that
    in a consistent, reliable way without a bunch of sunsets, we
    are actually going to get to the place where people can invest
    with confidence not just over a couple quarters or a couple
    years but at generational level. And that is what is really
    going to carry this country and our manufacturers forward.
        But we have to get on it right now. Let's not trip at the
    start line, like I said.
        Mr. JACK. I completely agree.
        And if I could, in my remaining time, turn to Mr. New.
        I was encouraged by your opening testimony talking about
    permitting. Again, I recall very fondly working on trying to
    accelerate our permitting process. And I took great delight
    when I saw the previous administration take credit for many of
    the permitting leases that we pushed forward during President
    Trump's administration from 2017 to 2021. To your point, it
    takes 3 to 4 years sometimes for some of these projects to come
    on line. We want to accelerate that as much as we can.
        So, with what time I have left, I am curious, how can
    Congress legislate safeguards to prevent future regulation
    efforts in your industry specifically?
        Mr. NEW. Well, certainly, you know, executive orders are
    fine, but, you know, we see that, you know, one administration
    comes in and they write a bunch of executive orders, the next
    administration comes in and immediately reverses all those, and
    so it is kind of whipsawed back and forth.
        But if you can enshrine some of those changes--like changes
    in the Outer Continental Shelf Lands Act, this withdrawal of
    areas for leasing--if you can enshrine some of that, where it
    is not subject to executive order, then we don't have that
    whipsaw back and forth, constantly changing every 4 years when
    there is a change in administration.
        Mr. JACK. And I also took note, during your opening
    testimony, you talked about how it is challenging, if you are
    running a business, when you have this ever-shifting regulatory
    landscape, it is really challenging to project your growth.
        I am just curious. In all of your years in your industry,
    which administration have you seen as the most successful at
    moving forth on deregulatory efforts?
        Mr. NEW. Well, certainly, the previous Trump
    administration, I would say, is probably the most successful in
    the deregulatory area.
        You know, and I am--I would think like a lot of small
    businesses, I am not looking for a handout. I am just looking
    for a level playing field, and then get out of my way. I will
    do the work, I will invest the money, I will push it forward,
    but just get out of my way. Don't stifle me every time I turn
    around.
        Mr. JACK. Well, I appreciate that, sir.
        Thank you to each and every one of our witnesses for
    testifying today.
        And I yield back to our distinguished Chairman, Mr.
    Williams.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
        I now recognize Ms. Scholten from the great State of
    Michigan for 5 minutes.
        Ms. SCHOLTEN. Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman.
        And thank you so much to our witnesses for joining us here
    today.
        I want to revisit an important conversation that we have
    been having here about the tariffs. And I know that, you know,
    we have covered a lot of it today, but one thing I really
    wanted to focus in on is this 30-day pause.
        And, you know, while it has given businesses a little bit
    of reprieve, to me and what I have heard from small-business
    owners back home: That is not much time to plan, when who knows
    what is at the other end of those 30 days. You know, so many of
    our small businesses and entrepreneurs are trying to compete in
    an increasingly unstable marketplace, and these tariffs could
    really throw them into a tailspin.
        Ms. Neitzel, I wonder, can you speak to how this impending
    change impacts your business operations and how you are
    navigating through this on such short notice and, you know,
    particularly to the 30-day piece?
        Ms. NEITZEL. Sure. Yeah, the uncertainty has, you know, put
    myself and my CFO in a pinch to figure out, if we did have to
    pay, say, $112,000 more for our cost of goods because of these
    tariffs, we don't have a plan for how to sell, you know, a
    million dollars more of ice cream to make up that profit. That
    is not something that I can do [snaps fingers] like that.
        It is incredibly difficult, and it is unnecessary. It is
    fearmongering. It is bullying. It is playing with the hearts of
    small-business owners across America who do not need this. We
    have been doing well and growing for the last 4 years.
        Ms. SCHOLTEN. Thank you so much for sharing that.
        My district covers much of west Michigan. Kent County, the
    most populated county in my district, is home to almost 60,000
    immigrants. That is almost 9 percent of the county's
    population. Suffice it to say, these folks are a real source of
    influence in our community. They contribute culturally,
    socially, and certainly have a significant economic impact, a
    strong presence in our local workforce.
        Many of our constituents are worried about the potential
    for mass deportations having a ripple effect on a lot of
    industries. I believe that such actions could cause a real
    strain on our workforce. We know that mass deportations that
    don't necessarily target only a specific individual can cause
    individuals to even not show up to work if they themselves even
    have status but happen to be married to someone who doesn't or
    have someone in their family who doesn't.
        Would mass deportations make it more difficult for
    businesses like yours to find workers or to navigate or the
    impact that it--speak about the impact that that would have.
        Ms. NEITZEL. I am extremely fearful for mass deportations'
    effect on farms in Washington State.
        I think that, yes, it creates so much fear, not just for
    adults, not just for people who do have legal status, but also
    for children and for schools. I have received many emails from
    folks in Washington State about planned and threatened and
    rumored ICE raids in our public schools in suburbs outside of
    Seattle.
        And kids just need to go to school. Kids are going to grow
    up and start businesses. And we need to stop threatening all of
    these families with the fear tactics.
        Ms. SCHOLTEN. Thank you. As a mom of two school-aged kids
    and someone who has heard just awful stories from around our
    district, I share those concerns, and we hear it.
        I want to use just the last few minutes here to get into,
    staying on the topic of kids and childcare, institutions like
    Head Start, which provide educational support services to young
    children and families. Over 12 locations in Kent County in my
    district, as I mentioned. Due to the federal funding freeze
    last week, they are struggling to draw down payments that they
    need to continue their critical services. Even after the
    memorandum has been rescinded, we are still seeing roadblocks.
        As an employer who helps their workers access childcare--
    and kudos to you--would your businesses be impacted if those
    childcare providers had to discontinue their services?
        Ms. NEITZEL. Yes. A threat to the childcare system in our
    region and everywhere is a threat to workers being able to show
    up and do their jobs, and it is a threat to us being able to be
    open.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. The lady's time is up.
        Ms. SCHOLTEN. Thank you.
        I yield back. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. The lady yields back.
        I now recognize Mr. Stauber from the great State of
    Minnesota for 5 minutes.
        Mr. STAUBER. Thank you, Mr. Chair, for holding this
    important hearing today.
        You know, during the past 4 difficult years under the Biden
    administration, over 1,100 regulations were added--I will
    repeat that: over 1,100 regulations were added--putting an
    enormous pressure on our small businesses, costing nearly $1.8
    trillion, adding more than 356 million hours of paperwork.
        You know, as we look forward to the future, we have to
    support policies that support small businesses and the growth
    of our small businesses. It is important to understand the
    hurdles that still remain.
        Mr. New, what are some of the most challenging regulations
    that you have faced when servicing the offshore oil and gas
    industries?
        Mr. NEW. There is a number of regulations that apply
    directly--not directly to us but to our customers that increase
    their costs of doing business, doesn't permit them to do
    projects because the permitting timeline is drawn out. And that
    directly impacts us in the fact that our business is totally
    dependent on our customers developing facilities and building
    new equipment, and if they are not doing that, then there is no
    work for us. And that certainly--you know, obviously, it makes
    it a struggle to maintain our employment.
        And, you know, on the tax side, you know, particularly the
    accelerated depreciation allows me to invest in new equipment.
    What that does in the long run--I mean, that makes us more
    productive, but what that does is that allows our employees to
    be more productive.
        Mr. STAUBER. Yeah.
        Mr. NEW. And that is the one area where you have lasting
    wage growth, is, if my employees are more productive, I can pay
    more.
        Mr. STAUBER. Yeah.
        Mr. NEW. And that is really--when you look from an economic
    side, that is the only place that can come from.
        Mr. STAUBER. Right.
        Mr. NEW. It has to come from enhanced productivity.
        Mr. STAUBER. Mr. Hutter, same question. What are some of
    the most challenging regulations that you have faced in your
    industry?
        Mr. HUTTER. Well said, Mr. New.
        I would like to really focus that on permitting, if I may,
    because I think that we are in a scenario right now where, to
    secure the strategic materials that we need, especially in--I
    look at that through the defense supply chain--we need to have
    sensible mining permitting, right? We need to keep moving on
    this to secure the materials we need for our power supply. Now,
    we are not extremely energy-intensive ourselves, but we use
    input materials that need to be made here in the United States
    that require reliable and sizable energy inputs too create
    them--alloyed metals, thermoplastics, coming from Bill's side
    of the world.
        And I just would highlight, on that permitting side, that
    really we are talking about infrastructure of all sorts here,
    whether it is minerals extraction or whether it is power plants
    or whether it is distribution and other infrastructure.
        And so, when I think about the opportunities for power
    sources of the future, okay--modern advanced nuclear,
    windmills, solar panels--all of these things have to be
    connected to the grid using infrastructure that has to be
    permitted. We have to seize this moment here for this country,
    and we have to make that sensible and get going on it.
        And one of the things that I really look forward to, that I
    get to see in my slice of the world, are the opportunities for
    advanced aerial mobility, okay? Electrified or hydrogen-enabled
    clean transportation for the future. Well, how are we going to
    distribute that electricity to airports and rooftops where they
    have never been before? How are we going to develop that
    hydrogen infrastructure?
        All of this is only going to move at the speed of
    permitting. And so we need to clean that up now.
        Mr. STAUBER. I really appreciate that, the permitting and
    the NEPA regulations, what are stifling growth. I mean, you
    look at an average mine opening in the United States of America
    is 29 years?
        Mr. HUTTER. Sure.
        Mr. STAUBER. The only country that is longer is the country
    of Zambia. Give me a break, right? We need these minerals. And
    we know right now China is using that against us. They are
    stopping their exporting of antimony and other critical
    minerals that we need.
        Okay. With a simple ``yes'' or ``no,'' would you agree that
    extending the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act tax provisions would have a
    positive impact on your ability to reinvest in your workforce?
        Mr. Hutter?
        Mr. HUTTER. Absolutely.
        Mr. STAUBER. Mr. New?
        Mr. NEW. Absolutely.
        Mr. STAUBER. Ms. Frazier?
        Ms. FRAZIER. Absolutely.
        Mr. STAUBER. We have heard loud and clear that these tax
    credits are a lifeline for small businesses. My colleagues on
    the other side of the aisle should remember this when they
    vote, because standing in the way of these policies means
    standing in the way of Main Street America.
        Small businesses, we have always said, are the engine of
    our economy. We have to protect them and allow them to grow and
    prosper on the streets of this great nation.
        Mr. Chair, I yield back.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
        And I now recognize Ms. Simon from the great State of
    California for 5 minutes.
        Ms. SIMON. Thank you so much.
        And, Mr. Chair, like others on this Committee, I offer my
    condolences from a very deep place, also having lost my
    husband. I am hoping that Members in this building continue to
    shed love and prayers on you forever. And thank you for leading
    today.
        I also want to thank you, Mr. Chair, for working with my
    office to submit a bill that would protect small-business
    owners from the waste and abuse of criminals who did the wrong
    thing during the pandemic and took advantage of this Committee
    and of our federal government.
        There are small businesses around the country that know
    that they serve as the lifeblood of their communities, and they
    deserve ongoing support. In fact, you know, last week, during
    my first workweek, I was able to meet with the field
    representatives in the Small Business Administration's field
    office in the Bay Area. Wonderful folks, who literally that
    morning learned that all of the resources that they had for the
    thousands of small businesses in my community, they were on
    freeze.
        Nevertheless, they were willing to work with my office and
    my newly hired, very excited staff to go door to door in the
    seven cities that I represent to ensure that we were still
    going to work and that we cared that employment rates would
    continue to rise. We wanted to make sure that our small
    businesses were paying taxes to support our police and fire.
        And yet, only hours later--only hours later--we got a call
    from the young woman that I was talking to who worked at the
    Small Business Administration saying that she got a letter
    asking for her resignation.
        We are in trouble.
        So I have one quick question--and thank you for opening up
    an ice cream store. As a widow and a single mom, sometimes one
    of the small luxuries that I had in the darkest days was going
    to a small business and just being able to sit and talk to a
    small-business owner. I can't wait to taste your product at
    some point.
        I know I missed a lot of this hearing, because I am outside
    trying to defend this democracy as it continues to fall down. I
    am curious: In your speaking with other small-business owners,
    what has been some of the fallout and anxiety over this chaos,
    over this freeze?
        One day we are hearing one thing, and the other day we are
    hearing another. The portals are closed. Phones aren't being
    answered. Folks are trying to employ real people in communities
    and pay their rents.
        Can you give me a number of examples, in the 2 minutes that
    I have left, about what this fallout really means for real
    communities in terms of public safety and employment?
        Ms. NEITZEL. Well, many of the people that we have heard
    from at Main Street Alliance run childcare centers who are very
    scared of the funding freeze. So those are big examples. And
    one childcare center may take care of 45 or even 100 children.
    That is 100 or 200 parents who now can't go participate in the
    economy. So that has been a pretty huge one.
        Another thing----
        Ms. SIMON. May I ask a question?
        Ms. NEITZEL. Yes.
        Ms. SIMON. When a student, particularly a community college
    student, a poor single mother, let's say, like a teen mom, like
    I was, who went to community college and who used the
    neighborhood daycare center that got federal funds--now I have
    a master's degree--what happens when a single mother doesn't
    have childcare?
        Ms. NEITZEL. Well, if she can't go to work, she may lose
    her job.
        Ms. SIMON. And what happens when she loses her job?
        Ms. NEITZEL. If women and parents are losing their jobs
    because of a lack of childcare, it is sending them into a
    spiral to poverty quickly. If they can't feed their children
    because they can't work and they can't pay their rent--we have
    an endemic of homelessness in this country, many of which are
    children, and things like this only push us closer to more of
    that.
        Ms. SIMON. Ma'am, so are you alluding to what may in fact
    be--could be fact, that the EOs and that this very
    disillusioned communication from our administration about
    freezes and payouts could in fact cause our communities to be
    less safe, cause our single mothers to be less employed, folks
    may in fact have to drop out of college? Is that what you are
    implying, ma'am?
        Ms. NEITZEL. Yeah. The federal funding freeze is going to
    cause people to lose their jobs and push us toward recession.
        Ms. SIMON. But, ma'am, in my last 15 seconds, the
    administration says that the freeze is only--it may only be for
    a few seconds, a few days, a few weeks. What are the
    implications? And after your answer, I will yield.
        Ms. NEITZEL. The chaos is deafening for the small-business
    community in every way.
        Ms. SIMON. Thank you.
        I will yield back.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentlelady yields back.
        And I would like to say something just real quick that I
    should have said, I failed to talk about when we started the
    hearing, is that you will periodically see many of us--you have
    seen it today--leave, come in, go back, go forth. You have seen
    Ranking Member do it; you have seen me do it. We are going to
    other committee hearings that we have. We are not mad at you or
    whatever. But I do want to make that--because that sometimes
    confuses people, that we all come and go and so forth. So that
    is what you saw there today.
        I want to say thank you to the witnesses for their
    testimony and for appearing before us today.
        Without objection, Members have 5 legislative days to
    submit additional materials and written questions for the
    witnesses to the Chair, which will be forwarded to the
    witnesses.
        I ask the witnesses to please respond promptly.
        And if there is no further business, without objection, the
    Committee is adjourned.
        [Whereupon, at 12:26 p.m., the Committee was adjourned.]

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