[Senate Hearing 118-231]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]



                                                        S. Hrg. 118-231

                CELEBRATING THE 50TH ANNIVERSARY OF THE 
                        SAFE DRINKING WATER ACT

=======================================================================


                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

                              COMMITTEE ON
                      ENVIRONMENT AND PUBLIC WORKS

                          UNITED STATES SENATE

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                             SECOND SESSION
                               __________

                           NOVEMBER 20, 2024
                               __________

  Printed for the use of the Committee on Environment and Public Works






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        Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov        
                               ______                                 

                 U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE

63-213                    WASHINGTON : 2026        








               COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENT AND PUBLIC WORKS

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS
                             SECOND SESSION

                  THOMAS R. CARPER, Delaware, Chairman
          SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO, West Virginia, Ranking Member

BENJAMIN L. CARDIN, Maryland         KEVIN CRAMER, North Dakota
BERNARD SANDERS, Vermont             CYNTHIA M. LUMMIS, Wyoming
SHELDON WHITEHOUSE, Rhode Island     MARKWAYNE MULLIN, Oklahoma
JEFF MERKLEY, Oregon                 PETE RICKETTS, Nebraska
EDWARD J. MARKEY, Massachusetts      JOHN BOOZMAN, Arkansas
DEBBIE STABENOW, Michigan            ROGER WICKER, Mississippi
MARK KELLY, Arizona                  DAN SULLIVAN, Alaska
ALEX PADILLA, California             LINDSEY O. GRAHAM, South Carolina
JOHN FETTERMAN, Pennsylvania

               Courtney Taylor, Democratic Staff Director
               Adam Tomlinson, Republican Staff Director
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
                            C O N T E N T S

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                                                                   Page

                           NOVEMBER 20, 2024
                           OPENING STATEMENTS

Carper, Hon. Thomas R., U.S. Senator from the State of Delaware..     1
Capito, Hon. Shelley Moore, U.S. Senator from the State of West 
  Virginia.......................................................     3

                               WITNESSES

Fox, Hon. Radhika, Principal, North Star Strategy................     6
    Prepared statement...........................................     9
Nygren, Hon. Dr. Buu, President, Navajo Nation...................    16
    Prepared statement...........................................    19
Tucker-Vogel, Cathy, Public Water Supply Section Chief, Kansas 
  Department of Health and Environment...........................    26
    Prepared statement...........................................    29

                          ADDITIONAL MATERIAL

Statement for the Record letters to Senator Carper and Senator 
  Capito from:
    Association of Metropolitan Water Agencies (AMWA)............    52
    American Water Works Association (AWWA)......................    58
Written testimony from David L. Gadis, District of Columbia Water 
  and Sewer Authority............................................    61
Letter to Senate Environment and Public Works Committee from 
  Universal Access to Clean Water for Tribal Communities (UACW)..    63
Letter to Senator Carper and Senator Capito from:
    North American Lake Management Society (NALMS)...............    68
    National Congress of American Indians (NCAI).................    71
Statement for the Record letter to the U.S. Senate Environment 
  and Public Works Committee from Erik D. Olson, Natural 
  Resources Defense Council......................................    73
Statement of The U.S. Water Alliance to the Committee of 
  Environment and Public Works...................................    74
Testimony of Kishia L. Powell of WSSC Water (Washington Suburban 
  Sanitary Commission) to U.S. Senate Committee on Environment 
  and Public Works...............................................    80
The National Congress of American Indians Resolutions:
    #AK-21-006...................................................    86
    #NO-23-013...................................................    88
    #SD-95-097...................................................    91
Press Release: Bipartisan Infrastructure Law Supports $580 
  Million Investment to Fulfill Indian Water Rights Settlements, 
  February 2, 2023...............................................    93
Article: Environmental Forum: We Need an Act for the 21st 
  Century, Erik D. Olson.........................................    99
News Release: Environmental Protection Agency: U.S. EPA awards 
  over $45 million for environmental improvements on tribal lands 
  in America's Pacific Southwest as 28th Annual EPA Tribal 
  Conference ends, October 21, 2020..............................   100
U.S. Senate Environment and Public Works Committee Safe Drinking 
  Water Act Hearing presentation, November 20, 2024..............   104








 
                CELEBRATING THE 50TH ANNIVERSARY OF THE 
                        SAFE DRINKING WATER ACT

                              ----------                              


                      WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 20, 2024

                                       U.S. Senate,
                 Committee on Environment and Public Works,
                                                    Washington, DC.
    The committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:15 a.m. in 
room 406, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Thomas R. Carper 
(chairman of the committee) presiding.
    Present: Senators Carper, Capito, Kelly, Padilla, Ricketts.

          OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. THOMAS R. CARPER, 
            U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF DELAWARE

    Senator Carper. I love baseball, as some of you know. This 
is like a day-night double header. The day game is over and we 
are about to turn on the lights and play the second half of the 
double header.
    Good morning, everyone, again. I call this hearing to 
order.
    We are gathered here today, as you know, to celebrate the 
anniversary of the Safe Drinking Water Act, which President 
Ford signed into law on December 16th, 1974. Today, we will 
reflect on the impact of the Safe Drinking Water Act and on the 
work that our committee has done to protect drinking water and 
to protect public health.
    This hearing is also an opportunity to discuss what 
improvements are needed moving forward to safeguard our 
Nation's drinking water.
    Our work on the Safe Drinking Water Act is personal to me. 
Some of you may recall, in the Bible there is a verse my 
mother, as Senator Capito knows, my mother was from Beckley, 
West Virginia, and she used to drag us to church every Sunday 
morning, every Sunday night, every Thursday night, and on 
Wednesday nights. One of the things she wanted to make sure 
that we internalized was not just the Golden Rule, to treat 
other people the way you want to be treated, but also to make 
sure that we took a verse of scripture, Matthew 25, dealing 
with the least of these, when I was hungry did you feed me, 
when I was naked, did you clothe me, when I was thirsty, did 
you give me something to drink. It is right there in the Bible, 
Matthew 25. Something that is there, and the Golden Rule is in 
every major religion in the world. Everyone, I do not care if 
you are Catholic, Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, it is in there for 
everybody, to treat other people the way we want to be treated.
    For me, Matthew 25 and the Golden Rule are things that 
basically say that we want to make sure that all Americans have 
access to clean, safe, and reliable water services. For 
example, back in 2017, about 7 years ago, we have three 
counties in Delaware, in the southernmost county, Sussex 
County, a small, unincorporated community just outside of 
Millsboro in the southern part of our State, reached out to me 
because their drinking water had become contaminated.
    I went and sat in the living room of one of the members of 
this community and heard personal stories of how children could 
not drink water out of their taps, families could not bathe, 
and overnight, their property values plummeted. This small 
community, like so many across America, was dependent on well 
water. Growing up in West Virginia and Virginia later on, we 
used well water. That is where we got our water.
    Their challenges back in that small community near 
Millsboro, their challenges led our team to start drafting the 
first in a series of significant drinking water reform bills 
over several Congresses, all with a goal of making sure every 
American has access to safe, clean, and reliable drinking 
water. The Safe Drinking Water Act is the foundational Federal 
law that enables us to strive toward that goal.
    To understand the significance of the Safe Drinking Water 
Act, it is important for us to recall the State of our Nation's 
drinking water in the early 1970's. Before the Safe Drinking 
Water Act became law in 1974, there was no comprehensive 
Federal regulation protecting our Nation's drinking water. In 
1970, officials found that 90 percent of the drinking water 
systems surveyed were contaminated. Let me just say that again: 
officials found that 90 percent of surveyed drinking water 
systems were contaminated.
    Between 1961 and 1970, State health departments, along with 
supplemental reports, documented nearly 50,000 cases of illness 
caused by water-borne disease in the United States, 50,000. As 
a result, Congress got to work. Congress got to work and passed 
the Safe Drinking Water Act in 1974. It would become the first 
Federal law to provide a regulatory framework for protecting 
our Nation's drinking water.
    Some of us may recall the Safe Drinking Water Act led to 
major Federal investments in drinking water infrastructure 
during the 1970's and the 1980's, including the construction of 
much of our Nation's drinking water infrastructure. These 
investments also represented incredible progress for public 
health.
    Unfortunately, over the next few decades, Federal 
investment did not keep pace within these communities. By 2017, 
the American Society of Civil Engineers gave our Nation's aging 
drinking water infrastructure a grade of D, D as in dog, a 
grade of D. There was a water main break every 2 minutes, that 
is every 2 minutes, in America. Congress recognized the need 
for significant investment in water infrastructure, and in 
2018, this committee, in frankly, this room, this committee led 
the efforts to pass America's Water Infrastructure Act, which 
reauthorized and updated the Safe Drinking Water Revolving 
Funds for the first time in more than 20 years.
    Then in 2021, this committee drafted the Drinking Water and 
Wastewater Infrastructure Act. This bill served as the 
foundational piece of the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law, which 
Senator Capito and I actually ended up managing on the Senate 
floor, one of the great honors for me and I suspect for you in 
the time that I have served here, which President Biden signed 
into law on November 15th, 2021, another anniversary that we 
just celebrated.
    Speaking of celebrations, today is also the President's 
birthday. How about that?
    In total, the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law invested in an 
unprecedented $55 billion to improve drinking water and 
wastewater systems in communities across our Country. This 
remains the single largest water infrastructure investment in 
our Nation's history. Those funds go a long way toward 
protecting the health and well-being of Americans from coast to 
coast.
    For example, the city of Tucson, Arizona, is using 
Bipartisan Infrastructure Law funding to treat contaminated 
well water. The community of Hastings, Nebraska, is using 
Bipartisan Infrastructure Law funding to inventory lead service 
lines that the city will then replace. The city of Newark, New 
Jersey, not to be confused with Newark, Delaware, is using 
Bipartisan Infrastructure Law funding to evaluate the 
reliability of their sewer systems.
    While the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law has enabled us to 
make considerable progress, there are still challenges facing 
our communities that we must address. I have long said that the 
Bipartisan Infrastructure Law was just a down payment on 
America's infrastructure needs. Today's hearing is not only an 
opportunity for us to celebrate the 50th anniversary of the 
Safe Drinking Water Act, but it is also a chance to chart a 
path forward to build and rebuild the 21st century water 
infrastructure that we need to assure that all Americans, all 
Americans, have access to clean drinking water.
    We look forward to hearing from our distinguished panel of 
witnesses about this important topic. Before we do, I want us 
to hear from Senator Capito for any comments that she wants to 
make.
    Senator Capito, you are recognized. Thank you.

        OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO, 
          U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF WEST VIRGINIA

    Senator Capito. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thanks to the 
witnesses who are here today and our members who are here for 
this important meeting on the past impacts and the future of 
the Safe Drinking Water Act. Many of the comments I will make 
will jive with what the Chairman has put forward.
    As we celebrate this 50th anniversary of the Safe Drinking 
Water Act, we must first recognize the remarkable progress that 
we have made in securing safe, reliable and affordable water 
across the Country. When Congress passed the Safe Drinking 
Water Act, contaminants in our drinking water posed serious 
threats and risks to Americans and our public health.
    After its enactment, the Safe Drinking Water Act drove a 
significant improvement in drinking water quality by 
establishing enforceable health standards, empowering States 
and water systems to monitor and manage water quality, and 
enabling the EPA to intervene when standards were not met.
    This framework has been instrumental in ensuring safe, 
reliable, and affordable drinking water for communities across 
the State. Despite these landmark achievements, we still have 
to recognize that more work lies ahead.
    First, in 2021, Congress made an unprecedented investment, 
and the Chairman talked about this, in the Nation's water 
infrastructure through the Bipartisan Infrastructure Investment 
in Jobs Act, IIJA. That investment gives us an opportunity to 
modernize our drinking water structure, strengthen resilience 
and address disparities in water access.
    The funding particularly targets small and disadvantaged 
communities aiming also to replace lead pipes, make important 
infrastructure upgrades, such as upgrading our filtration 
systems, and addressing emerging threats like PFAS. Despite 
these significant investments and advancements, many rural and 
underserved communities still struggle to access Federal 
resources due to complex processes.
    While the Safe Drinking Water Act framework offers the 
foundation for these communities to receive support, we must 
also focus on building local capacity, providing technical 
assistance and addressing the pervasive challenge communities 
encounter across the EPA's various grant programs. Addressing 
these issues will empower communities to access needed 
resources to upgrade their systems and effectively protect our 
public health.
    Second, we must carefully implement Safe Drinking Water Act 
and IIJA programs in partnership with our State and local 
governments. Cooperative federalism, which is a principle 
enshrined in the Safe Drinking Water Act, recognizes that 
States are best positioned to understand, prioritize, and 
address the needs of their communities.
    Federal programs should complement these State programs, 
rather than impose one-size-fits-all mandates that complicate 
funding processes and divert attention from pressing 
infrastructure needs.
    Third, the unprecedented level of funding provided of the 
IIJA demands rigorous oversight and accountability. As stewards 
of taxpayers' dollars, we must ensure that these funds are used 
effectively and transparently, monitoring EPA's administration 
of funds and maximizing the public health impact of each dollar 
that is spent. congressional oversight is especially crucial as 
we work to address emerging contaminants, such as PFAS or 
forever chemicals, which require careful regulatory approaches 
that balance scientific rigor with practical feasibility for 
water systems nationwide. PFAS presents unique challenges 
because of its persistence in the environment.
    The EPA's proposal to classify certain PFAS as hazardous 
substances under CERCLA, though well-intentioned, would impose 
financial penalties on utilities that are tasked with cleaning 
up PFAS that they did not create, and forcing unfair costs onto 
our local governments and ratepayers. To address this, Congress 
must exempt these entities or, they are called passive 
receivers, from CERCLA liability while holding manufacturers 
and primary contributors accountable. This balanced, science-
based approach will allow water systems to prioritize their 
efforts on providing clean water.
    As we look to the future, the legacy of the Safe Drinking 
Water Act reminds us of the power of bipartisan cooperation, 
sound science, and shared responsibility across Federal, State 
and local governments. These values have been central to the 
Act's success and will continue to guide our efforts to 
strengthen and protect our Nation's drinking water systems.
    As we focus on practical, evidence-based solutions, we 
honor the Act's spirit and renew our commitment to safe, 
reliable, and affordable drinking water for all Americans.
    In closing, I want to thank all of our Federal, State and 
local partners and the water professionals who work tirelessly 
to keep our water systems running safely. I look forward to our 
discussion today and working to advance our shared mission to 
protect and enhance America's drinking water.
    Thank you.
    Senator Carper. Thank you, Senator Capito.
    Let me now recognize Senator Kelly, who is going to 
introduce our distinguished witness from the Navajo Nation. 
Senator Kelly, please.
    Senator Kelly. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am pleased to 
welcome to the committee the President of the Navajo Nation, 
Dr. Buu Nygren. President Nygren was elected President of the 
Navajo Nation in 2022. Upon his election, he made history as 
the youngest-ever president of the Navajo Nation.
    Prior to his election as President, Dr. Nygren served as 
the Chief Commercial Officer of the Navajo Engineering and 
Construction Authority. He is a graduate of Arizona State 
University and is has a doctorate from the University of 
Southern California. He and his wife, Jasmine, live in Red 
Mesa, Arizona.
    I have the honor of working closely with President Nygren 
on many of the issues that we will be discussing today, 
including exploring every opportunity to make sure that tribal 
households throughout the Navajo Nation have access to clean, 
reliable drinking water, but also cleaning up abandoned uranium 
mines and securing water rights for the Navajo Nation and other 
tribes and communities in northern Arizona.
    President Nygren, thank you for agreeing to testify in 
front of the committee today. I know that the committee is 
going to benefit from your experience as we discuss maximizing 
the investments made by the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law to 
improve tribal water infrastructure, and also to get your 
perspective on what more Congress can do to meet the needs of 
tribal communities.
    With that, Mr. Chairman, I will hand it back over to you. 
Thank you.
    Senator Carper. Thank you, Senator Kelly.
    Next, I am pleased to welcome Hon. Radhika Fox, former 
Assistant Administrator of the U.S. Environmental Protection 
Agency, Office of Water, and current Principal of North Star 
Strategy. Radhika has more than 25 years of experience in 
executive management, policy, strategy, and operations. She has 
advanced policies, programs, and initiatives at the 
intersection of sustainability, infrastructure investment, 
environmental management, water resources and environmental 
justice and our economy.
    We are also joined today by Cathy Tucker-Vogel, Public 
Water Supply Section Chief of the Kansas Department of Health 
and Environment. She has over 30 years of water sector 
experience in the State of Kansas, where she oversees the 
Drinking Water State Revolving Fund and the Water Operator 
Certification programs.
    Now, I think we are ready. Radhika Fox, welcome. It is 
great to see you. We welcome you and thank you again for all 
your service to our Country.

           STATEMENT OF HON. RADHIKA FOX, PRINCIPAL, 
                      NORTH STAR STRATEGY

    Ms. Fox. Thank you, good morning, Chairman Carper, Ranking 
Member Capito, and members of the committee. It is really a 
pleasure to be before you again.
    Ranking Member Capito, it is always lovely to see you. It 
has been a pleasure working with you for several years now on a 
range of drinking water issues, PFAS, and infrastructure 
investment. It is great to see you again.
    Senator Carper, I want to express my gratitude for your 
years of service, not only to your home State of Delaware, but 
to this Nation, to the U.S. Senate, and to our environment. You 
are going to be deeply, deeply missed.
    Senator Carper. Thank you very much. You can have five or 
ten more minutes.
    [Laughter.]
    Ms. Fox. Just 50 years ago there were no national 
enforceable rules governing the safety of our drinking water. 
The drinking water that Americans relied on carried discarded 
chemicals, pesticides, fertilizers and human waste, leading to 
high rates of disease among children and adults alike.
    That is why, in 1974, Congress took bold action and 
established the Safe Drinking Water Act (SDWA). The Act 
transformed our expectations, and it saved lives and created 
jobs. First and foremost, SDWA has improved water quality at 
the tap by empowering the EPA to set national drinking water 
standards, saving lives and preventing diseases for countless 
Americans. It has increased monitoring and compliance 
requirements, helping us control emerging contaminants and stem 
potential threats to our drinking water.
    SDWA also established the Drinking Water State Revolving 
Fund, which provides affordable financial assistance for water 
infrastructure projects that protect public health. It fostered 
transparency, requiring water systems to share information 
about the quality of their drinking water with the communities 
that they serve.
    The Safe Drinking Water Act, while many Americans do not 
even think about it, was truly a game changer in terms of our 
ability to protect the health and well-being of the American 
people. During my time at the EPA, I had the honor of working 
very closely with this committee to continue to make progress 
for the American people through the implementation of the Safe 
Drinking Water Act.
    I want to take a moment to highlight some of our collective 
successes over the last couple of years as really an example of 
what we can accomplish through partnership and collaboration.
    Both Senator Carper and Senator Capito already spoke about 
the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law, and deep appreciation to 
this committee for their leadership in getting that in place. 
Of the $50 billion that was dedicated to water infrastructure 
investment, EPA has awarded about $21 billion of those funds to 
States, tribes and territories, and those resources are really 
working on behalf of local residents all across the Country.
    Alongside the EPA infrastructure funding, we have also 
developed a robust technical assistance program to do the very 
thing that you just spoke about, Senator Capito, to ensure that 
every community has a fair shot at receiving these funds. The 
Water TA program that was stood up over the last few years is 
now helping about 3,500 communities across the Country in 
accessing this funding. It is places like McDowell County in 
West Virginia, the Makah Tribe in Washington State, with a real 
focus on building the technical, financial and managerial 
capacity of these water systems.
    EPA also made progress on the regulatory front with a more 
protective Lead and Copper Rule, establishing the first 
drinking water standards for PFAS, and other regulations.
    I am certainly proud of all of our shared accomplishments, 
but we have so much more to do. Our work will not be done until 
every single American has drinking water that is safe, 
reliable, and affordable. As we look to the future, I want to 
offer five priorities for our collective work.
    First, we must continue to invest in our Nation's water 
infrastructure. EPA's recent Drinking Water Needs Survey found 
that in the United States, we have about a $385 billion need to 
invest in drinking water infrastructure over the next 20 years, 
not to mention the need on the clean water side. We need more 
programs like the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law.
    Second, we must modernize water management by rapidly 
accelerating the adoption of digital tools. There are 
incredible technologies that exist right now to help improve 
water quality, water efficiency, and resilience. The Federal 
Government has a really important role in raising awareness, 
providing technical assistance and offering funding and 
incentives to help water utilities embrace these tools.
    Third, we must strengthen water management through 
equitable consolidation. There are over 50,000 water utilities 
in this Country and many of them struggle to meet regulatory 
requirements, manage costs and maintain their infrastructure. 
Equitable consolidation can deliver real results for local 
residents if it is done well.
    Fourth, we have to adopt drinking water policy and 
investments to help communities with what is increasingly 
called the water whiplash, this phenomenon of shifts between 
extreme weather patterns, moving from severe droughts to 
intense floods and back again. There is a lot we can do on the 
policy side, flexible water use regulations, encouraging 
conservation practices, and expanding water recycling that can 
help communities confront these challenges.
    Finally, across all that we do, we must improve outcomes 
for underserved and disadvantaged communities. Right now, one 
in three Americans struggles to pay water bills. What good is 
clean water if you can not afford to drink it? We need to 
establish a permanent Federal water assistance program to help 
struggling families.
    In closing, the Safe Drinking Water Act was an 
extraordinary accomplishment. It set the stage for decades of 
progress.
    The clean and safe drinking water that so many Americans 
enjoy today would not have been possible if we acted by 
voluntary action by individual water utilities. It could not 
have been accomplished by communities and States working 
independently. We never could have developed and scaled a 
nationwide effort to test, protect and improve our drinking 
water without the leadership and reach of the Federal 
Government.
    It is truly an example of the essential work of our Federal 
Government, what it can and must do to stand for our well-
being. As we look back at the last half century and look 
forward to the next, I hope that will be our lesson and our 
goal.
    Thank you for the opportunity to join you today. I look 
forward to the discussion.
    [The prepared statement of Ms. Fox follows:]
    
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Senator Carper. We look forward to it as well. Thank you 
very much, Radhika. Thanks for all of your good work across the 
years. We are delighted to see you again.
    I want to say before, it is not every day that we get to 
welcome a president to our hearings. This is an important 
subject, so Mr. President, you are welcomed. Do people ever 
call you Mr. President?
    Mr. Nygren. Yes.
    [Laughter.]
    Senator Carper. I think that would be a great perk. 
Welcome, Mr. President, and thank you. Please proceed.


               STATEMENT OF HON. DR. BUU NYGREN, 
                    PRESIDENT, NAVAJO NATION

    Mr. Nygren. Chairman Carper, Ranking Member Capito, thank 
you.
    Senator Carper. Believe it or not, she pronounces it 
``Capito.'' I am sure your name has been mispronounced a time 
or two.
    Mr. Nygren. Plenty of times. Except around Halloween, when 
they are pretty good at it.
    [Laughter.]
    Mr. Nygren. I want to say thank you so much to the esteemed 
members of the committee, as well. Ya'at'eeh. I am Dr. Buu 
Nygren, Navajo Nation President. The Navajo Nation is the 
largest Native American tribe in the U.S., spanning 17.5 
million acres in Arizona, New Mexico, and Utah. We have over 
400,000 enrolled members, half residing on the reservation. 
Under the 1868 Treaty, the United States had a legal and moral 
obligation to assist the Navajo Nation in addressing the 
challenges we face in safeguarding the well-being of our 
people.
    Thank you for this opportunity to testify on the 50th 
anniversary of the Safe Drinking Water Act, which has been 
vital for ensuring safe drinking water for many, many Navajo 
families in the Nation. The Act enabled the Navajo Nation to 
regulate its drinking water systems, marking a significant step 
for tribal sovereignty and self-determination.
    The Navajo Nation's efforts to ensure safe drinking water 
began with the establishment of the Public Water System 
Supervision Program (PWSSP) in 1991. This program laid a strong 
foundation for regulating and monitoring water systems across 
the Nation. Building on this progress, the Navajo Nation 
formally adopted the Navajo Nation Safe Drinking Water Act in 
1995. This legislation was made to align with the Federal 
regulations ensuring that all drinking water systems on the 
Navajo Nation met rigorous safety and compliance standards.
    In December 2000, the Navajo Nation became the first 
federally recognized tribe to attain full authority for 
implementing the Safe Drinking Water Act. This historic 
milestone solidified the Nation's authority to oversee and 
enforce safe drinking water regulations independently.
    Today, the PWSSP regulates 26 water purveyors responsible 
for 171 water systems providing essential oversight to ensure 
clean and safe drinking water for approximately 169,000 of my 
tribal members across the Navajo Nation. The program continues 
adopting new regulations, ensuring that our water systems 
comply with evolving safety standards. This includes monitoring 
and reporting on over 90 contaminants and addressing emerging 
issues such as arsenic, disinfection by products, and PFAS.
    The Public Water System Supervision Program has shown 
remarkable leadership and innovation in advancing the Navajo 
Nation's access to safe drinking water. One of its key 
achievements is developing a formal construction review 
program, which ensures that all water system designs, new 
construction and safe system upgrades meets stringent safety 
and performance standards. This program guarantees that water 
infrastructure projects are built to last and serve the needs 
of the Navajo Nation's communities effectively.
    Additionally, the program has implemented an operator 
certificate program to uphold the quality and reliability of 
water system operations by providing rigorous training and 
certification for our operators. The program ensures that those 
managing water and wastewater systems have the expertise to 
address the challenges and maintain compliance with safety 
regulations. Collaboration has been central to the program's 
success.
    Through partnerships with the Indian Health Service and the 
EPA, the program has significantly reduced contamination levels 
in several Navajo communities, including Aneth, Montezuma 
Creek, and Greasewood Springs. These efforts involve the 
construction of water treatment plants, the extension of 
pipelines to bring clean water to areas that previously relied 
on less reliable sources. Funding sources like the American 
Recovery and Reinvestment Act and the Water Infrastructure 
Improvements for the Nation Act, the Bipartisan Infrastructure 
Law, have been very instrumental in extending pipelines and 
upgrading infrastructure in the Navajo Nation.
    Despite progress in securing safe drinking water for the 
Navajo Nation, challenges do remain. Many communities still 
lack basic water infrastructure. Building pipelines across 
remote, rugged terrain is very costly and time-consuming, often 
hindered by logistical and financial constraints. Emerging 
contaminants like PFAS and PFOA require advanced monitoring and 
treatment and investments in technology.
    Additionally, transitioning to surface water systems to 
reduce groundwater reliance adds complexities, including staff 
training, to meet regulatory standards.
    We deeply appreciate the support from Congress and Federal 
agencies which has been very essential in advancing safe 
drinking water efforts for our people. However, as demands on 
our water system grows, additional resources are urgently 
needed. We request restoring our annual grant funding for the 
Public Water Systems Supervision Program, which was last fully 
funded 11 years ago in 2014. With increases in costs since then 
and updated funding levels, it is critical to support 
enforcements, inspections, operator training, and program 
sustainability.
    In closing, I urge Congress to continue supporting our 
tribal programs like the Navajo PWSSP, and increase funding for 
critical infrastructure projects.
    Thank you for your time and your continued support. I am 
here for any questions that you may have.
    Ahehee'on behalf of the Navajo Nation.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Nygren follows:]
    
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Senator Carper. Good. Thank you so much for joining us, and 
for your leadership, Mr. President. When is your birthday?
    Mr. Nygren. Christmas.
    [Laughter.]
    Senator Carper. You're kidding. That is great.
    All right, well, nice of you to join us. Thank you for your 
leadership.
    Cathy Tucker-Vogel, where are you from?


 STATEMENT OF CATHY TUCKER-VOGEL, PUBLIC WATER SUPPLY SECTION 
       CHIEF, KANSAS DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND ENVIRONMENT

    Ms. Tucker-Vogel. Good morning, Chairman Carper, Ranking 
Member Capito and members of the committee. I am from the great 
State of Kansas. I am the Drinking Water Administrator at the 
Kansas Department of Health and Environment, but I am also here 
today representing the Association of State Drinking Water 
Administrators, whose 57 members represent the drinking water 
primacy agencies, who work as co-regulators to protect public 
health through the implementation of the Safe Drinking Water 
Act.
    Senator Carper. Welcome. We are delighted that you are 
here. Please proceed.
    Ms. Tucker-Vogel. In Kansas, I direct the programs that 
implement the Safe Drinking Water Act with oversight of about 
961 public water supply systems in the State of Kansas that are 
all predominantly small and rural. I oversee the approximately 
2,000 water operators in the State of Kansas.
    Senator Carper. How many people live in Kansas these days?
    Ms. Tucker-Vogel. Almost 3 million.
    Senator Carper. OK.
    Ms. Tucker-Vogel. The 50th anniversary of SDWA provides an 
opportunity for us to celebrate successes and identify 
approaches to meet our future challenges. The first national 
interim primary drinking water regulation, published in 1975, 
and I actually have an original copy here, yes, an original 
copy of the Federal Register. It was eight and a half pages 
long, and set maximum contaminant levels for 18 contaminants. 
Today, the most recent publication of 40 C.F.R. Part 141, which 
are the Drinking Water Regulations, consists of 343 pages and 
regulates over 90 contaminants.
    You can see over the past 50 years, our workload has 
increased quite a bit.
    Primacy agencies and public water supply systems rely on 
three programs created in the 1996 amendments to the Safe 
Drinking Water Act. Those are the State Revolving Fund, which 
has been mentioned here today, and is the foundation for the 
implementation of our State drinking water programs.
    Since its inception in 1997, the SRFs have provided $57.3 
billion in funding for water system improvements. The SRFs have 
also provided $5.1 billion in additional subsidy through 
principal forgiveness on the loans and many of these projects 
benefit small and rural communities.
    The second program I want to briefly review is the Capacity 
Development Program, which States have used to help small water 
systems achieve and maintain technical, financial, and 
managerial capacity, and has become an integral part of all 
State drinking water programs. I would just note that in 
addition, SDWA prohibits awarding loans to water systems that 
do not demonstrate TFM capacity.
    Finally, the third program I want to highlight is the fact 
that Congress recognized that a well-trained and qualified work 
force is necessary for water systems to ensure compliance with 
regulations. The operator certification program consists of 
training, examination, work experience and continuing education 
requirements. Those three are really foundational to the 
operation of our drinking water programs.
    Implementation of SDWA during the past 50 years has 
significantly improved public health protection. For example, 
the corrosion control requirements in the 1991 Lead and Copper 
Rule have reduced exposure to lead from drinking water by 70 
percent.
    One of the biggest challenges primacy agencies and public 
water supply systems face is the number and complexity of new 
and proposed drinking water regulations. In the past 3 years, 
EPA has published four final regulations and anticipates three 
more in 2025. Primacy agencies and water systems struggle to 
meet the implementation challenges that these new regulations 
impose on our programs.
    State primacy agencies really rely on two Federal funding 
sources to operate their programs. That is the Public Water 
Supply Supervision grants, and the SRF setasides. Since 
implementation of the congressionally directed spending in 
2022, the base SRF capitalization grants have seen a 45 percent 
reduction, while the PWSSP grant allocations have increased 
somewhat, about 16 percent over the last 20 years. This 
critical source of funding for State programs has not kept up 
with inflation and expanding program responsibilities.
    Other challenges for States and water systems include 
compliance with Buy America, Build America, Davis-Bacon and 
American Iron and Steel, the IIJA restriction that only allows 
subsidies for disadvantaged communities, work force shortages, 
both at the State and local levels and cybersecurity threats 
and vulnerabilities.
    Although the challenges are many, with improved 
collaboration between EPA and States, combined with enhanced 
support from Congress, we can continue to protect the Nation's 
drinking water. There are actions needed to ensure the 
achievements of SDWA over the past 50 years will continue for 
the next 50. congressional actions that we would recommend: 
provide nationwide waivers for compliance with Build America, 
Buy America, American Iron and Steel, and Davis-Bacon 
requirements for public water supply systems serving a 
population less than 10,000; allow SRF program flexibility to 
award additional subsidies to address compliance issues 
regardless of disadvantaged community status; fully fund the 
SRF capitalization grants; and fund congressionally directed 
spending from a source other than the SRF capitalization 
grants; increase the annual PWSSP grant appropriation to $200 
million per year; and provide dedicated funding to address 
cybersecurity vulnerabilities.
    In closing, ASDWA and its members are working very hard 
every day to ensure the provisions of the SDWA are implemented 
in the most effective and efficient manner possible. On behalf 
of ASDWA's members, I want to thank you for your continued 
investment in America's public water supply systems and the 
people they serve. You will find more details regarding my 
comments today in my written testimony.
    I would be happy to answer any questions you may have. 
Thank you for inviting me to speak today.
    [The prepared statement of Ms. Tucker-Vogel follows:]
    
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Senator Carper. Thank you very much for joining us and for 
your testimony as well. Our thanks to each of our witnesses. It 
is great to see you. Some of you have come a long way and we 
are especially grateful for that.
    I believe that we can all agree, probably everybody in this 
room, probably a lot of the people who are watching this across 
the Country, I think we can all agree that every American 
deserves access to clean, safe and reliable drinking water. 
This hearing commemorates the 50th anniversary of the Safe 
Drinking Water Act, a piece of legislation that has enabled 
immense progress toward that goal, and really helped to change 
the lives and improve the lives of so many people now and in 
the last 50 years.
    Would each of you share with us for a moment your 
perspective on the importance of the Safe Drinking Water Act 
for protecting public health? Radhika, please.
    Ms. Fox. Yes, thank you, Senator Carper, for the question. 
I sort of said it in my opening remarks, that SDWA is a game 
changer. It was an absolutely game changer, because it 
established a national framework for testing, monitoring and 
treating our drinking water. As a result, now 91 percent of 
public water systems are delivering drinking water that meets 
all national standards. That is an incredible statistic.
    Now, we need to be at 100 percent. The drinking water that 
Cathy, you and your fellow ASDWA members are responsible for 
regulating, President Nygren, what you are doing on the Navajo 
Nation, it is because of a national framework that created 
uniform expectations that we are still working to meet.
    Senator Carper. All right, thank you for that.
    Another question for you, Ms. Fox, as our colleagues have 
heard me say time and time again, bipartisan solutions are 
lasting solutions. In fact, those words, the first time I heard 
those words was from Rob Wallace, a close friend of John 
Barrasso from Wyoming. It was in this room and he was sitting 
right where you are sitting, Cathy, and he had been nominated 
by President Trump for a senior position in the Department of 
Interior. He said to me in his testimony these words. He said, 
bipartisan solutions are lasting solutions. That is what he 
said. I think that is something we all agree with, and I think 
it is one of the secrets to our success in this committee.
    The Safe Drinking Water Act is no exception to that. From 
its initial passage in 1974 all the way through passage of the 
Bipartisan Infrastructure Law last Congress, all the major 
legislation that Congress has passed to protect drinking water 
has been bipartisan. I am particularly proud of the bipartisan 
efforts of this committee, especially with the leadership of 
Senator Capito, to pass drinking water infrastructure 
legislation.
    My question for you, Radhika, how has bipartisanship played 
a role in safe drinking water protections, and what do you see 
as a future opportunity going forward for bipartisanship in 
this regard?
    Ms. Fox. I feel that I just have to start by thanking this 
committee for really being a beacon of bipartisanship on water 
and environmental issues. It was an honor of a lifetime to be 
able to work with all of you for 3 years.
    I do think that the successful bipartisan action this 
committee has taken on water also reflects the reality for 
community and for people. Water knows no political boundaries. 
If you have clean, safe water, you fuel the economy. If you do 
not, it is a barrier to prosperity.
    Interestingly, Senator Carper, just last night I was 
reading a roundup of various ballot measures at the local and 
State level that were about water and conservation. They 
overwhelmingly were supported by voters from New York to 
Minnesota. I think it is because people understand that there 
is nothing more essential to life than clean, safe water.
    I again want to thank the bipartisan action of this 
committee. It really has been a beacon of how we can get things 
done for the people of this Nation.
    Senator Carper. Thank you.
    Senator Capito?
    Senator Capito. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank all of you.
    I think we are very much all aligned in terms of saying the 
value of the Safe Drinking Water Act and as we look forward. I 
am going to take a little bit different tactic on my questions 
here, since I have an expert panel in front of me.
    I want to start with you, Ms. Tucker-Vogel. I mentioned 
this in my opening statement. Water systems often receive and 
encounter PFAS contaminants without producing or intentionally 
accepting or distributing them.
    Given the EPA's proposed PFAS designation under CERCLA, 
what would the impact be for water systems and consumers of the 
potential liability that this could place on local utilities 
that bear no responsibilities? You said you had 900 separate 
systems. You have to be obviously anticipating and thinking 
about this.
    What is your perspective on the passive receiver issue?
    Ms. Tucker-Vogel. If you look at the memo from EPA on their 
discretion on enforcement for PFAS under CERCLA, it does exempt 
community water systems. Well, I should not say exempt, it says 
they will use discretion on enforcement at community water 
systems.
    However, it does not mention non-community water systems, 
non-transient, non-community, which are schools, those non--
residential water systems that serve the same people every day. 
The big one that comes to mind is schools.
    We would want to make sure that schools are also included 
in that discretionary enforcement. Water systems under the new 
PFAS rule will have to comply. If they do have PFAS in their 
water, they will have to install treatment in order to be 
compliant with the new regulation.
    Funding will be a big problem. We have done some 
preliminary sampling in the State of Kansas. We are fortunate 
that we have only identified, so far, about three or four 
systems that have detections. We have one system which is a 
military base, Fort Leavenworth, which has installed treatment. 
Of course, that is a Federal Government responsibility, so that 
does not really impact our small systems. They will be very 
challenged if we have to start installing this expensive 
treatment for PFAS removal.
    Senator Capito. OK, thank you. Yes, this is a source of 
concern, I think, as we move forward.
    Radhika Fox, thank you, and good to see you. Thank you for 
the nice compliments, and I hope you are doing well in the 
private sector as you have devoted 3 years to us and to your 
Country. Thank you for that.
    While I have you here, I am going to ask you a question 
about something that occurred while you were in your capacity. 
You know that the safe drinking level, this maximum containment 
level (MCL) is something that I was pushing constantly for, set 
a level that we can understand, measure, and be safe with. The 
Science Advisory Board was sort of questioning the processes 
for setting those levels. They identified major flaws in the 
EPA's approach like inconsistent inclusion and exclusion of 
epidemiology and animal studies, lack of predefined protocol, 
insufficient transparency.
    What would your response be to that, and how can we improve 
upon the processes, but also make this MCL level workable for 
the systems that Ms. Tucker-Vogel talked about? Also the 
President of the Navajo Nation is going to have to deal with 
this as well.
    Ms. Fox. One thing I will say, Senator Capito, having been 
at the EPA for 3 years, I absolutely agree and I think Cathy 
would probably agree with this, too, there are vast 
improvements we can make to the regulatory development process, 
creating great efficiency and transparency. From a process 
perspective, I absolutely agree with you.
    On the question of the process that EPA went through to set 
the level at four parts per trillion, what I recall is that was 
very much, that was a recommendation that was made by career 
staff experts who had reviewed hundreds of studies. We arrived 
at the four parts per trillion because some of the more recent 
studies from when States had set MCLs showed that PFAS clearly 
causes cancer. That is what really led to the decision to set 
that at four parts per trillion.
    Senator Capito. You do not really have a response to what 
the Science Advisory Board, the questions that they raised on 
the setting of this level?
    Ms. Fox. I believe that there was robust discussion between 
the staff who were managing the development of that regulation 
and the Science Advisory Board.
    Senator Capito. OK, thank you.
    Mr. Chairman, I have to go to my other committee. Thank you 
all very much.
    Senator Carper. Thank you for this morning. Thank you very 
much.
    Senator Capito. Well, I was going to do a big thank-you to 
you and I feel sort of bad, I have not. I am planning one. It 
is going to be big.
    [Laughter.]
    Senator Capito. I did name the bill after you, and other 
things. I did not want anybody who was listening to this to 
think that I, as the Ranking Member, do not have great 
appreciation and admiration for not just our working 
relationship but our personal relationship. Our native West 
Virginia roots I think have tied us together very early, very 
long. I thank you for that. You are just going to be amazed at 
what I am going to say later on.
    [Laughter.]
    Senator Carper. You will get as much time as you want.
    Senator Capito. It is my 48th wedding anniversary today.
    Senator Carper. Really? Congratulations. That is wonderful.
    Senator Capito. Worked for Charlie.
    Senator Carper. Tell him we said thanks for sharing you 
with all of us. Thanks, and thanks for your kind words. See you 
soon.
    I think next is Senator Padilla. Senator Padilla, please.
    Senator Padilla. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I really appreciate 
your holding this hearing to celebrate the 50th anniversary of 
the Safe Drinking Water Act, which is a bedrock environmental 
law ensuring safe and clean drinking water for all Americans.
    Mr. Chairman, earlier, you referenced the right to clean 
water, safe water, and reliable water. I also want to add 
affordable water to that list of important criteria. In the 
very first hearing that I held as chair of the Subcommittee on 
Fisheries, Water, and Wildlife, we examined the challenges of 
water affordability, especially for small, rural, and tribal 
water systems.
    Now, unlike a lot of other types of infrastructure projects 
that receive Federal funding, drinking water infrastructure is 
primarily funded by ratepayers. That has become the case. In 
fact, over 90 percent of a typical water utility's revenue 
comes directly from customer payments.
    As drinking water systems face $625 billion in 
infrastructure needs over the next 20 years, what does this 
mean for working families, the working families that we 
represent, working families across the Country? It means that 
many customers are facing water bills that are rising even 
faster than inflation overall.
    My first question for Ms. Fox, I appreciated your testimony 
on the importance of establishing a permanent water assistance 
program to help struggling families pay their water bills. That 
is why I introduced legislation to establish the Low-Income 
Household Water Assistance (LIWAP) Program. Can you speak more 
about why a national, permanent assistance program for water is 
so critical?
    Ms. Fox. First of all, thank you for your leadership, 
Senator Padilla, on this issue of water affordability. As I 
said in my opening remarks, one in three Americans struggles 
with the price of their water bills. If you think about the 
fact that ongoing investment is going to be needed in water 
infrastructure, this issue of affordability is only going to 
increase.
    It was quite incredible that Congress established the LIWAP 
program, and that has helped hundreds of thousands of families 
be able to address arrearages and water affordability costs. 
More is needed. We need a permanent water affordability 
program. I am very hopeful that this next Congress will sort of 
pick up the mantle of your important legislation and get it to 
the finish line.
    Senator Padilla. Thank you. On a related note, the 
increased cost is not just for the replacement of some aging 
infrastructure, the expansion to add capacity. It is not just 
pipes, it is not just pumps, it is not just the treatment that 
is needed to meet important safety standards. Ongoing operation 
and maintenance costs are something that is not often 
considered. It is important to do so.
    Again, this milestone, this hearing presents an opportunity 
to reaffirm our commitment to resilient water infrastructure. 
The Bipartisan Infrastructure Law should play a historic and 
pivotal role in helping us address some of these deferred 
maintenance needs. The operational and maintenance costs are so 
critical to sustaining these systems, but often receive 
insufficient attention and funding.
    Ms. Fox, given that the incoming Administration has already 
signaled that they plan to rescind unspent funds for major 
multi-year investments, can you speak to the importance of 
continued and focused investments in our Nation's water 
infrastructure, particularly for ensuring the long-term 
sustainability of these systems?
    Ms. Fox. Absolutely. If you look, Senator, at any of the 
mega-trends in water, what we know is everywhere is becoming 
more water insecure. Scarcity is an issue, making sure that our 
water systems are fortified in the face of more uncertain 
weather patterns. It is absolutely a time to really double down 
on investment in water infrastructure.
    What I can say about the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law, $21 
billion is already out from EPA to States, tribes and 
territories, like my fellow witnesses said. That money is being 
put to work in over 1,200 local water infrastructure projects 
in every State across this Country. Every American is really 
going to be benefiting from this.
    I certainly hope that the incoming Administration will 
continue to invest the second half of that Bipartisan 
Infrastructure Law funding as well as work in a bipartisan 
fashion with Congress to continue to sustain those investments. 
I really see the infrastructure dollars and the permanent water 
affordability program as two sides of a coin that really can 
deliver clean, safe water for the American people.
    Senator Padilla. Thank you very much.
    Mr. Chairman, just in closing, I want to remind the members 
of the committee that we had this hearing, the conversations 
that we have had since are truly bipartisan. If you look at the 
rural communities that I referenced earlier, the lower income 
communities, the tribal communities throughout the Country, it 
is not Blue States, it is not Red States, it is truly all of 
us. This is an area where there should be significant 
bipartisan agreement.
    Thank you very much.
    Senator Carper. Thank you as well.
    Before I turn to Senator Ricketts, I want to say a word of 
thanks to both of you for our faithful attendance. You were 
preceded here by Barbara Boxer, and my guess is if you choose 
to continue to do this line of work for the years to come, and 
I hope you will, that you may end up sitting in this seat. If 
you do not, you will have to share it with this guy right here, 
because nobody is more faithful in attendance than him.
    Senator Ricketts, please. Thank you.
    Senator Ricketts. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and 
thank you very much for your work here on this committee. It 
has been a pleasure serving on this committee with you. Thank 
you for what you have done.
    Thank you to the witnesses who have come here today to 
share their experiences. Together, we celebrate the 
contributions of water utilities across the Nation and their 
work to ensure access to safe drinking water. We should 
celebrate safety.
    We should also expect to celebrate transparent and 
constitutional water regulations under both the Safe Drinking 
Water Act and the Clean Water Act. Sadly, starting with the 
Obama administration and now with the Biden Administration, the 
EPA has pursued implementing the unconstitutional Waters of the 
United States Rule, otherwise known as the WOTUS Rule. Put 
forward originally by the Obama administration, now by the 
Biden Administration, this rule was predictably illegal. The 
Biden Administration's pursuit of it has only hurt Americans.
    The legal ambiguity around the Biden WOTUS Rule acutely 
impacts Nebraska. Nebraska's economy is deeply tied to 
agriculture. It is about 20 percent of our State's economy; 
about one in four jobs are tied to agriculture in Nebraska. 
About 92 percent of our land area in Nebraska is dedicated to 
agriculture.
    Our farmers and ranchers are the original conservationists. 
They protect the land, the animals, the waters, because they 
want to pass that land on to the next generation. We have 
farmers and ranchers who are third, fourth, fifth, sixth 
generation.
    They depend on protecting those natural resources. They are 
stewards of the land that know their livelihoods and their 
families' livelihoods are tied to the health of the land and 
water they tend.
    They tend to the lands. Nebraskans depend on the Federal 
Government to give them clear and transparent guidance. The 
Biden WOTUS Rule was the opposite of what Nebraskans needed. It 
did not have to be so problematic.
    Congress gave the EPA clear definitions of intent. The 1972 
Clean Water Act established navigable waters as Waters of the 
United States. The 1972 Clean Water Act says navigable waters 
50 times. Congress' intent could not have been more clear on 
what it was. It was very clear that this is what the EPA had 
authority to regulate.
    Now, I am a biology major, not a sailor. It seems to me the 
plain water definition of navigable is that you can put a boat 
on it and you can go someplace. Oh, let's look. Guess what? 
Merriam Webster agrees with me. What does Merriam Webster say? 
Deep enough and wide enough to afford passage of ships.
    Guess who else also agrees? The Supreme Court. The Supreme 
Court unanimously ruled that the Biden Administration exceeded 
its authority on the Clean Water Act, all nine justices. When 
the court is unanimous, I question if the EPA understands the 
Clean Water Act. Or maybe the EPA just does not care what the 
Clean Water Act boundaries are. Either explanation is 
embarrassing.
    Sadly, the damage of this rule did not stop with the 
Supreme Court decision. The EPA failed to issue clear 
implementation of guidelines after the illegal rule was struck 
down. Farmers and ranchers have to guess how to comply with the 
EPA.
    These guidelines are critical. Violation of the Clean Water 
Act can carry penalties of up to $64,000 a day. This ongoing 
regulatory confusion does not just undermine trust in our 
institutions, it jeopardizes the ability of hard-working 
Americans to pay their bills, feed their children, and care for 
the land and water that they have. They love this land.
    Waters of the U.S. is just one example of how the Biden 
Administration created regulatory uncertainty. Biden's EPA 
created similar issues with other rules on the Safe Drinking 
Water Act. They have added costly regulatory burdens for rural 
and urban water systems impacting Nebraska households.
    I am looking forward to a change in leadership at the EPA 
soon. New leadership will give farmers and ranchers, 
manufacturers and landowners a transparent and legal regulatory 
framework, and new leadership will increase American's access 
to clean, safe, and affordable drinking water.
    Again, I look forward to having new leadership at the EPA 
soon enough, given the regulatory uncertainty that this EPA has 
created. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
    Senator Carper. Thank you as well.
    A question, Radhika, for you. Many of us are still 
grappling with the results of last month's elections, including 
what it means for environmental and public health protections 
going forward. Now more than ever, it is important to remain 
vigilant about protecting progress that we are making toward 
clean drinking water.
    Ms. Fox, would you please describe what you will be 
watching out for during the next Administration in terms of 
drinking water protections? Are there potential policy actions 
that the Trump Administration might take that concern you? Go 
ahead.
    Ms. Fox. Thank you for that question, Senator. I think as 
has been a theme of this hearing, the issue of clean, safe 
water knows no political boundaries. This committee has been a 
shining example of taking bipartisan action to ensure that 
every American has access to clean, safe water.
    I certainly hope that the next Administration, the Trump 
Administration, will continue the work and that the next 
Congress will continue that work. I think if you look at, for 
example, Senator Carper, the issue of PFAS, this is an area 
where you and Senator Capito have worked hand in hand on the 
issue. PFAS affects communities all around the Country.
    The PFAS drinking water standard that was established 
during the Biden Administration really was initiated during the 
Trump Administration. While I certainly would expect that they 
will be taking a look at the regulation, I certainly am hopeful 
that some protection for PFAS is going to be important for the 
American people.
    Same thing with the Lead and Copper Rule. The Trump 
Administration established the Lead and Copper Rule that the 
Biden Administration built on. Again, I am hopeful here that 
even as refinements are made that these protections are 
maintained.
    Senator Carper. All right. Thank you for that.
    This will be a question for each of you. We will start with 
Ms. Tucker-Vogel.
    Based on all of your testimony, it is clear that sustained 
Federal support is critical to build and rebuild our Nation's 
drinking water infrastructure. The Bipartisan Infrastructure 
Law that a number of us on this committee have worked very hard 
on, and our staffs, has enabled us to make, we believe, 
considerable progress. We have also heard about ongoing 
challenges that remain unaddressed.
    I have long said that the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law was 
a down payment on safe drinking water. Congress will need to 
take more actions to protect that investment.
    Looking forward, I am going to ask each of you to summarize 
the key considerations for Congress to protect safe drinking 
water. What should be in a potential future supplemental 
funding package for drinking water infrastructure? Where do you 
see agreement with your fellow witnesses? Ms. Tucker-Vogel, 
will you lead off with that, then we will go to the president, 
then back to Radhika.
    Ms. Tucker-Vogel. If you go back to my comments about 
things, from a State drinking water agency perspective, and the 
fact that drinking water touches everyone every day in every 
community, and it is the primary public health protection 
measure that we can provide to our citizens.
    As far as congressional actions, the Buy America, Build 
America, American Iron and Steel, and Davis-Bacon are really a 
burden on especially the small water systems that we are 
primarily talking about and that primarily exist in the State 
of Kansas.
    Providing some relief, maybe some waivers, for those 
serving less than 10,000 would be very beneficial and allow 
those small systems to take advantage of the SRF program and 
the other grant programs, the emerging contaminants for small 
and disadvantaged communities, and the grants for small, 
underserved and disadvantaged communities which are outside of 
the SRF programs, but still very important funding to help 
these small communities, and allow the SRF programs some 
flexibility in awarding the additional subsidy grants principal 
forgiveness in the SRF program, so that a water system that may 
be having compliance issues, say, with nitrates, in Kansas we 
are seeing a real uptick in nitrate contamination.
    They may not be a disadvantaged community at the point they 
are making the loan application, but if you start talking about 
a $3.5 million nitrate removal treatment plant, the cost of 
installing that treatment plant could very well tip them over 
the edge into being a disadvantaged community just by simply 
the operational costs and the water rates that would have to go 
along with that to repay the loan.
    Providing States some flexibility on how we assign 
additional subsidy would be very helpful as well.
    Senator Carper. Good. We have been rejoined by Senator 
Kelly. While he takes his seat, Mr. President Nygren, we will 
come back to you once Senator Kelly has had an opportunity to 
get settled in and ask his questions. Then the same question of 
Radhika. I will just restate that question, actually two 
questions that are related. I am going to ask each of you to 
address this.
    Looking forward, would you please summarize the key 
considerations for Congress to protect safe drinking water, and 
what should be in a potential supplemental funding package for 
drinking water infrastructure? Where do you see agreement with 
your fellow witnesses? We will come back once he has asked his 
questions.
    Senator Kelly, thanks for rejoining us.
    Senator Kelly. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    President Nygren, thanks again for joining us today. I want 
to ask you to expand upon your testimony where you discuss the 
importance of making sure the tribal communities receive not 
just funding for physical building infrastructure, but also for 
staff, training, and work force development to make sure tribes 
can operate and maintain drinking water systems.
    First, can you expand upon what you said during your 
opening remarks to explain what types of funding the Navajo 
Nation has received in prior years to administer drinking water 
programs? I am talking about previous years. What were the 
types of funding that the Nation received?
    Mr. Nygren. Thank you, Senator. As mentioned in my 
testimony, we currently receive the Public Water Systems 
Supervision grant, and we feel like it has not been fully 
funded since 2014. I have been told that it is about half 
funded since then. Really to continue to roll out the Safe 
Drinking Water Act, to make sure that that program is funded, 
we would really appreciate that.
    The other funding that we have gotten is the Source Water 
Protection Grant. I am told that it was about $200,000, around 
that number, that we have received, to try to provide some 
quality source water prevention from contamination as well.
    Then the other grant that we received is to make sure that 
these grants continue to work together in partnership to have 
us continue to implement these grants. Sometimes the resources 
and the dollars we get are not quite enough. The vastness of 
the Navajo Nation, we have, as I mentioned earlier, about the 
size of West Virginia, two and a half times the size of 
Massachusetts. Really, to implement the resources that are 
needed we have to make sure that we have our personnel to be 
out in the community, testing, whether it is well water, 
testing existing water systems that have not been looked at in 
a long time.
    Again, the funding that we get we really hope that we ca 
get it fully funded to make sure that we meet those demands.
    Senator Kelly. Even when it is fully funded, do you feel 
like it is still an insufficient amount of money to do the work 
you need? Is that correct?
    Mr. Nygren. Yes, definitely. As I was talking with our EPA 
team, that they have not gone out and evaluated some of the 
groundwater systems that have like windmills that a lot of our 
people continue to use, having grown up 19 years, I grew up on 
well water, and the discussions I had with EPA was, I wonder if 
the well water that I drank for 19 years, I wonder if it was 
ever tested.
    A lot of communities still use well water, spring water. 
Some of the spring waters on Navajo, they have had traces of 
uranium, but sometimes communities just need to drink water to 
satisfy their thirst. Again, I think that if we were fully 
resourced above and beyond what we are requesting at the 
moment, it would really help us. There is still 30 percent of 
the population that still does not have access to clean, 
reliable drinking water, because most of them have to haul the 
water miles and miles at a time.
    Senator Kelly. I have a staff member who works for me in-
state, who you know, who has to haul water every week. The 
frequency varies based on the time of year and how much water 
people tend to use.
    Can you talk a little bit about staffing capacity and how 
the funds that we provide help you administer these programs 
and why this is so important to tribal communities?
    Mr. Nygren. When it comes to the staffing, we are 
definitely using the dollars that we can get. Again, we staff 
them with as many people as we possibly can. But as I mentioned 
earlier, we have some personnel that continue to try to monitor 
as much as they can.
    As far as the other resources that we have received, I know 
it is like the ARPA money, the Bipartisan Infrastructure 
dollars, especially with the Gallup water supply and trying to 
complete some of those resources, we have really been trying to 
implement a lot of those working with our Navajo Tribal Utility 
Authority, some of the bipartisan money that has come down from 
Congress. We have continued to connect people to water on a 
month-to-month basis. Again, that is just using existing water 
sources, and I know at the moment, you are championing one of 
our biggest water rights settlement the time.
    To really continue to build that out, we really need to 
have a really good idea of how much water we are going to have 
as we continue to build out some of those clean water efforts.
    Senator Kelly. If you know, how many families are getting 
access via piped water to their homes, on average, each month?
    Mr. Nygren. On average, I think the number that I recently 
got about a month ago is over the past year we have connected, 
I think it was about 700 homes over the past year. Again, if 
you divide that, I am probably not as quick as you at math, 60 
something a month.
    Senator Kelly. Sixty something. Yes.
    I will come back to you, Mr. President, in a second. Ms. 
Fox, can you describe what ways the Bipartisan Infrastructure 
Law in the Biden Administration worked to provide additional 
capacity building assistance to help tribal communities?
    Ms. Fox. Absolutely. During my time at the EPA, we 
established the first-ever tribal water action plan, which was 
the Biden Administration's commitment to strengthen the nation-
to-nation relationship with tribes through the implementation 
of the Safe Drinking Water Act and the Clean Water Act. That 
tribal water action plan included several things. One was to 
invest more in technical assistance to support tribes, and I 
talked about some of that technical assistance work earlier.
    There was also a commitment to help an additional 100 
tribes get treatment at State, so they could also be setting 
and managing the water regulations. Then there were several 
rulemakings that were really focused on better aligning the 
implementation of the Clean Water Act with tribal treaty 
rights.
    Of course there is more work to be done. Those were some 
examples of the efforts that we partook in.
    Senator Kelly. Can you think of additional resources you 
might need or additional authorities that the EPA could benefit 
from to help tribal communities meet their drinking water 
needs?
    Ms. Fox. I would absolutely agree with the recommendations 
that President Nygren has already made. I think that we have 
well established programs for technical assistance, for 
infrastructure. We really just need to continue resourcing 
them, so that we can reach more communities.
    Senator Kelly. I think I am a little bit over my time, but 
one suggestion for President Nygren, when you come back to the 
committee and the Chair will be Senator Capito from West 
Virginia, I often talk about the Navajo Nation not being twice 
the size of Massachusetts, but being almost as big as West 
Virginia.
    [Laughter.]
    Senator Kelly. Just for your information.
    With that, I will turn it back over to Mr. Chairman.
    Senator Carper. As a native of West Virginia, I would just 
say, almost heaven, almost heaven, West Virginia. Thank you, 
Senator Kelly. You have been a great member of this committee. 
It has been an honor to have served with you, and in the Navy. 
We are probably the only committee in the Congress where we 
have two retired Navy captains serving on the same committee in 
lockstep with a bunch of Republicans and Democrats. Thank you 
very much.
    Senator Kelly. Even though we did not serve in the Navy at 
the same time.
    [Laughter.]
    Senator Carper. That is true. I served when they had wooden 
ships.
    [Laughter.]
    Senator Kelly. Cannons.
    Senator Carper. Cannons, there you go.
    Before we wrap it up, I would just say, let's go back to 
the last question. I think we heard from you, Ms. Tucker-Vogel. 
President Nygren, I would like to hear from you and Radhika on 
the last question, please.
    Mr. Nygren. Thank you. I believe that one of the things I 
think about when it comes to how do we continue to promote the 
Clean Drinking Water Act is to make sure that as we continue to 
fund our efforts, as I mentioned earlier, the Navajo Nation 
still has thousands and thousands of people without running 
water and access to clean drinking water. We need to continue 
to have that support from Congress, continue to have that 
support from the EPA, from the Department of Interior and IHS 
as we continue to partner to make sure that we continue to 
deploy our efforts to bring water to families every week.
    One of the things I also think about, too, is to make sure 
that some efforts on trying to secure water rights, that is one 
of the biggest initiatives that we have on behalf of the Navajo 
Nation, is that we have secured some water rights in the San 
Juan River on the New Mexico side, the Utah water rights as 
well.
    In Arizona, we are still continuing to fight. Arizona, 
actually, is 60 percent of the Navajo Nation, and we have not 
secured our water rights for 60 percent of the Nation as well. 
That fight, I think if we can continue to get that accomplished 
and really have a future that the Navajo Nation can plan around 
that would be amazing to see. As I mentioned in my testimony, 
bringing water on the Navajo Nation, you have rough terrain, 
you have rocks, you need trenchers to try to go through the 
rock to bring water to some of the western part of the Navajo 
Nation.
    There are a lot of challenges. If we can continue to make 
sure that we can secure our water, our water rights, that would 
help us tremendously.
    Senator Carper. Good. Thank you for that.
    Ms. Fox. Senator, I just want to appreciate you for this 
hearing, to take a moment to kind of reflect on our progress. I 
think so often when we do this work, we are thinking about what 
is next, what are the challenges that we have not dealt with 
yet.
    If you think about it, 50 years ago, Safe Drinking Water 
Act, 52 year ago, we had the Clean Water Act, two incredibly 
important canons of environmental regulation. We have gone from 
human waste in our drinking water, we have gone from rivers on 
fire because there was so much pollution to really, really 
incredible progress for the American people because of what 
this body, Congress, did for the American people.
    Then I think about under your leadership, Senator Capito's 
leadership, we got $50 billion, so another 50, $50 billion in 
funding for water infrastructure, which is really setting the 
stage for the next 50 years of progress. I think we just have 
to keep going, continue. We do not always get the policy right; 
we do not ever have all the money that we need.
    Over the last 3 years, 4 years, we have really made 
progress. I think it is time to just keep going. When we bet on 
water, America wins.
    Senator Carper. I like that. Let me just ask one last 
question. Sometimes I ask, is there a question you wish you had 
been asked today but you were not. If there is one, give us the 
question and your answer, please. Go ahead.
    Ms. Tucker-Vogel. I did not quite hear what you said.
    Senator Carper. Sometimes I like to say to the witnesses, 
especially when we have a lot of concurrence, a lot of 
agreement, if there is any question that you wish you had been 
asked but were not.
    Ms. Tucker-Vogel. A question I wish I had been asked?
    Senator Carper. Yes, you get to ask a question and answer 
that question.
    Ms. Tucker-Vogel. One of the things I touched on briefly 
was work force issues. I think it is very important to 
recognize we have work force challenges, not only at water 
systems with the greying of our water operators, if you will. 
Many of them are retiring. The younger folks are not really 
interested in working in a public water supply system where you 
are on call 24-7, 365 days out of the year. Salaries are low.
    We have those same problems with State agencies and people 
that provide the assistance to those water systems.
    Looking at ways to perhaps support work force issues, to 
help grow the work force, to make being a water operator an 
attractive career for folks coming out of college. I will give 
you a couple of examples. What we have done in Kansas, our 
junior colleges, community colleges, are going directly to high 
schools trying to get high school seniors who may not be 
interested in going to college into the water sector work.
    The National Rural Water Association has an apprenticeship 
program. Kansas has done, I believe, about 19 water operators 
have gone through the apprenticeship program in the last three 
to 4 years. Nine of them have successfully passed their water 
operator examinations and are now out working in our small 
communities.
    Those kinds of efforts to shore up work force issues and 
provide some support to expand our work force issue efforts I 
think would be very helpful.
    Senator Carper. That is good. I was privileged to serve as 
Governor of Delaware for 8 years, and chaired the National 
Governors Association for some of those years. The NGA has what 
they call a Center for Best Practices. It is a clearinghouse 
for ideas that may come out of Kansas, out of West Virginia, 
out of Delaware. We just share them across geographical lines 
and State lines.
    The idea is to figure out what works and do more of that, 
and to make it easier to share those ideas. What you have just 
shared with us is another example of that.
    President Nygren, do people ever mispronounce your name? 
Your last name? Mr. President, go ahead. Is there anything you 
wish you had been asked but have not been?
    Mr. Nygren. I can agree with Cathy, I am glad she brought 
that up. Work force development in the Nation, especially with 
the aging work force and trying to continue to entice high 
school students to really pursue their trades and to give every 
opportunity so that we can have a lot more people working out 
in the skilled labor force is really definitely needed, not 
only there but here on the Navajo Nation as well.
    I am definitely glad that question was brought up. Overall, 
I am just very happy that this committee, as mentioned by 
everyone on this panel today, we are very appreciative that we 
have bipartisan support to try to get water to every American. 
I appreciate your leadership, and thank you so much, Senator 
Carper.
    Senator Carper. Thank you. People in the future will say, 
what do you most remember about chairing the Committee on 
Environment and Public Works? I will say, the last hearing that 
I chaired. They will say, why is that? I will say, the 
president was there.
    [Laughter.]
    Senator Carper. All right, Radhika.
    Ms. Fox. As you know, Senator, I have been asked lots and 
lots of questions by this committee over the last several 
years.
    Senator Carper. Yes, you have.
    Ms. Fox. I think the question that I wish I was asked is, 
what is your favorite quality when it comes to Senator Carper. 
I would say it is your heart.
    I want to close with this story.
    Senator Carper. Remember, this is a PG audience.
    [Laughter.]
    Ms. Fox. Back in June 2021, when I was confirmed by the 
Senate, I was sitting in my home, it was in the evening, and a 
phone number I did not recognize showed up on my cell phone. It 
was Senator Carper. He was on the train home to Delaware, and 
he called just to say congratulations, and I expect you to do 
good stuff.
    Then he said, because he had met my husband at my 
confirmation hearing, he said, is your husband there? So I went 
and got my husband and Senator Carper said, thank you, thank 
you for sharing your wife with the Country.
    Then he remembered that my dad had come out, during COVID, 
to the confirmation hearing. It was the first time I had seen 
my dad in months and months because of COVID. He said, is your 
dad there? I said, my dad lives somewhere else. He said, can 
you conference him in?
    I conferenced my dad in, and I was like, Dad, Senator 
Carper is on the line for you. He was like, what? You just were 
so kind to my father, who you know as an immigrant came to this 
Country from rural India. You remember that story about my 
father, that he lived in a small village without running water, 
and that his daughter became the first woman of color to run 
the water program for the Country. You remembered that.
    Senator Carper, I want to thank you for your service, for 
always doing this work of policy from a place thinking about 
people and with such a good heart. Thank you.
    Senator Carper. You are kind to say that. Thank you very, 
very much for that.
    Speaking of spouses and parents, Senator Kelly and I spent 
a lot of years in uniform in the Navy. Back in World War II, 
especially, a bunch of true heroes, one of those was Bob Dole 
from Kansas, he ended up as a Senator here. He was a leader. He 
ran for President, and had an extraordinary career. His wife, 
Elizabeth, was nominated to serve in a position that required 
Senate confirmation. It was a great story.
    I do not know if they were at this room and this table, but 
there is a tradition that when people are nominated for Senate 
confirmable positions that their home State Senator might come 
and introduce them to the colleagues on the committee. The 
story is, it is a true story, that when Elizabeth Dole came for 
her confirmation hearing before the appropriate Senate 
committee, her husband sat next to her to introduce her. He 
said these words to his Senate colleagues, Robert Dole, these 
were his words. He said, ``I regret that I have but one wife to 
give for my Country.
    [Laughter.]
    Senator Carper. He has passed, and he left a great legacy 
here. She is still alive and doing a whole lot of great stuff 
with her life. Remember us to your family, especially your 
husband.
    A lot of times members of the committee, my colleagues and 
I, get thanked for our service, for what we do. People have 
been very kind to Ben Cardin and me and others, Debbie 
Stabenow, who is stepping down at the end of this year. I have 
been doing a number of interviews, looking back, legacy kind of 
interviews, which are interesting and fun.
    People ask me, what is my secret to success. I will say, my 
sister and I picked the right parents. Not a lot of money but 
good values and deep faith and hard work. A real love for this 
planet and the idea that we have a moral obligation to protect 
this creation that we all call home, this planet Earth. I think 
that is something that goes across party lines in this 
committee. It is a good thing.
    One story, I have said it, I may have said it today but I 
want to say it again. It is one of my favorite experiences. 
People say to me, what do you most remember in your 24 years in 
the Senate. I remember the night we were up all night debating 
the Inflation Reduction Act, which actually has a lot of clean 
energy provisions in it that deal with water and air and so 
forth. We were debating up until the wee hours of the morning 
that legislation and the Inflation Reduction Act.
    We finally voted about 3 or 4 in the morning and it passed 
with one vote. Vice President Kamala Harris came out and 
presided over the Senate for the last vote. It was a 50-50 
vote; she broke the tie. I spoke to her afterward, things went 
crazy and people were celebrating, a lot of crying for some for 
different reasons on the passage of the Inflation Reduction 
Act. It think we are finding it is something we can live with 
and do well, create a lot of jobs across the Country.
    I left there, I go back and forth on the train a lot like 
Joe Biden used to do, but that morning I caught a train around 
6 o'clock back to Delaware. We were finished in the Senate and 
I caught a train and headed back and got up in Wilmington.
    I do not know how many of have, in your States, WaWas. We 
have them all up and down the east coast. I love Wawa. Those of 
you who are familiar with them probably love it, too.
    Anyway, rather than driving home, it was about 7:30 in the 
morning, I was dead tired, but rather than driving home I said, 
I am going to go get a cup of coffee at Wawa. I did. I got a 
small cup of coffee and went to the cashier to pay for it. She 
knew who I was, and was very kind. I had a small cup.
    She said, your money is no good here for a small cup of 
coffee. That is what she said, isn't that nice? Your money is 
no good here for a small cup of coffee. I said, can I get a 
larger cup of coffee? She said no. Your money is no good here 
for a small cup of coffee.
    Then she went on to say this. She said, you have been up 
all night, haven't you? I said, yes, we have, with my 
colleagues. She said, I know what you have been doing. She 
said, I have a son and a daughter, and I want to make sure that 
they have a planet to grow up on and a planet to grow old on. 
Think about that. A planet to grow up on and a planet to grow 
old on. She said, I know that is what you have been working on.
    I said, I want to make sure they have a planet to grow up 
on and grow old on, and hope some day that, my wife and I have 
several sons. We hope some day to have some grandchildren, and 
we want to make sure that they have a planet to grow up on and 
grow old on.
    I also want to make sure, and I said this to the lady that 
morning, I also want to make sure that your kids and 
everybody's kids have not just a planet to grow up on, I want 
to make sure they have jobs that they can support themselves 
and their families. As it turns out, we can do both.
    For as long as I have been on this committee, 24 years, 
that is what we have been, trying to make sure that we do have 
a planet to grow up on and grow old on, for those who follow 
us. Also to make sure that the economy of this Country remains 
vibrant, and it is. To make sure it continues to produce jobs 
at an incredible pace without going forward into the future.
    Let me say to our staff members, those on the Republican 
side who work under the leadership of Senator Capito, who has 
been a wonderful colleague and partner on so many things, 
including today, to express my sympathy that you have to put up 
with guys like me from time to time. Really to express my 
thanks for our staff members who are here, over my right 
shoulder. I do not see Adam, who is their leader on the staff 
side. Tell him that some nice things were said about him in his 
absence.
    To the folks on my left here, led by in part by Elizabeth 
Grace and Courtney, our thanks to all of you.
    To members and my colleagues who have been great 
collaborators for good, it has been a joy. I look forward to 
coming back and visiting from time to time.
    With that, final housekeeping. I want to again thank our 
witnesses for your time and your testimony, for what you do 
with your lives. Ensuring access to clean drinking water has 
been a priority for me throughout my career, since my sister 
and I were little kids. We lived alongside Beaver Creek outside 
Beckley, West Virginia, a creek that was so polluted you could 
not drink it, you could not eat the fish out of that creek. My 
training, as somebody who cares about the environment, started 
right there as a little boy.
    While the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law is enabling 
considerable progress toward meeting our Nation's drinking 
water infrastructure needs, there are still major challenges 
and opportunities that the Congress needs to address and must 
address. Today we were able to learn about some of those 
challenges and consider what communities will need going 
forward to ensure that all Americans have access to clean 
drinking water.
    We have heard, I think, important perspectives today. There 
are many more perspectives that can and should inform this 
important discussion.
    To that end, I ask unanimous consent to submit for the 
record letters from a variety of stakeholders that relate to 
today's hearing. I would ask unanimous consent for that.
    Hearing no objection, that is one of my favorite things I 
do as the Chair, I wait until none of my colleagues are here, 
then I make a unanimous consent request. I could ask for the 
moon, and there is nobody here to object. I have not gotten 
into any trouble yet. Hopefully I will escape today as well.
    [The referenced information follows:]
    
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    Senator Carper. Final housekeeping. Senators will be 
allowed to submit questions for the record through the close of 
business on December 4th. We will compile those questions, we 
will send them to each of you, and we are going to ask you to 
respond to us by December 18th.
    Anything else? No. With that, it is a wrap. This hearing is 
adjourned. Thank you all.
    [Whereupon, at 11:50 a.m., the hearing was adjourned.]
    
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