[Senate Hearing 118-774]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]




                                                        S. Hrg. 118-774

                 EXAMINING THE PUBLIC HEALTH IMPACTS OF 
                             PFAS EXPOSURE

=======================================================================


                                HEARING

                               before the

                    SUBCOMMITTEE ON CHEMICAL SAFETY,
                WASTE MANAGEMENT, ENVIRONMENTAL JUSTICE,
                        AND REGULATORY OVERSIGHT

                                 of the

                              COMMITTEE ON
                      ENVIRONMENT AND PUBLIC WORKS

                          UNITED STATES SENATE

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                             SECOND SESSION
                               __________

                            December 5, 2024
                               __________

  Printed for the use of the Committee on Environment and Public Works



                [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
                
                
                
        Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov
        
                               ______
                                 

                 U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE

63-017                 WASHINGTON : 2026        
        







               COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENT AND PUBLIC WORKS

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                             SECOND SESSION

                  THOMAS R. CARPER, Delaware, Chairman
          SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO, West Virginia, Ranking Member

BENJAMIN L. CARDIN, Maryland         KEVIN CRAMER, North Dakota
BERNARD SANDERS, Vermont             CYNTHIA M. LUMMIS, Wyoming
SHELDON WHITEHOUSE, Rhode Island     MARKWAYNE MULLIN, Oklahoma
JEFF MERKLEY, Oregon                 PETE RICKETTS, Nebraska
EDWARD J. MARKEY, Massachusetts      JOHN BOOZMAN, Arkansas
DEBBIE STABENOW, Michigan            ROGER WICKER, Mississippi
MARK KELLY, Arizona                  DAN SULLIVAN, Alaska
ALEX PADILLA, California             LINDSEY O. GRAHAM, South Carolina
JOHN FETTERMAN, Pennsylvania

               Courtney Taylor, Democratic Staff Director
               Adam Tomlinson, Republican Staff Director
               
                              ----------                              

   Subcommittee on Chemical Safety, Waste Management, Environmental 
                   Justice, and Regulatory Oversight

                     JEFF MERKLEY, Oregon, Chairman
               MARKWAYNE MULLIN, Oklahoma, Ranking Member

BERNARD SANDERS, Vermont             JOHN BOOZMAN, Arkansas
SHELDON WHITEHOUSE, Rhode Island     ROGER WICKER, Mississippi
EDWARD J. MARKEY, Massachusetts      DAN SULLIVAN, Alaska
JOHN FETTERMAN, Pennsylvania         SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO, West 
THOMAS R. CARPER, Delaware (ex           Virginia (ex officio)
    officio)
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
                            C O N T E N T S

                              ----------                              
                                                                   Page

                            DECEMBER 5, 2024
                            
                           OPENING STATEMENTS

Merkley, Hon. Jeff, U.S. Senator from the State of Oregon........     1
Mullin, Hon. Markwayne, U.S. Senator from the State of Oklahoma..     3
Carper, Hon. Thomas R., U.S. Senator from the State of Delaware..     4

                               WITNESSES

Schaider, Laurel, Ph.D., Senior Scientist, Environmental 
  Chemistry And Engineering, Silent Spring Institute.............     4
    Prepared statement...........................................     7
Fenton, Sue, Ph.D., Director of the Center for Human Health and 
  the Environment, Professor of Biological Sciences, North 
  Carolina State University......................................    13
    Prepared statement...........................................    15
Larranaga, Michael D., Ph.D., P.E., President and Managing 
  Principal, R.E.M. Risk Consultants.............................    52
    Prepared statement...........................................    55
    Responses to additional questions from:
        Senator Merkley and Senator Mullin.......................    62

                          ADDITIONAL MATERIAL

Reports:
    Per- and Polyfluoroalkyl Substance Uses (PFAS) Federal 
      Research and Development Strategic Plan (August 2024) from 
      the Executive Office of the President of the United States.    23
    Critical Per- and Polyfluoroalkyl Substance Uses (August 
      2023) from the Department of Defense.......................    71
Letter to Senator Merkley and Senator Mullin from:
    SEMI Global Advocacy Office..................................   103
    National Association of Clean Water Agencies (NACWA).........   115
    AGC Chemicals Americas, Inc..................................   118








 
                 EXAMINING THE PUBLIC HEALTH IMPACTS OF 
                             PFAS EXPOSURE

                              ----------                              


                       THURSDAY, DECEMBER 5, 2024

                               U.S. Senate,
         Committee on Environment and Public Works,
         Subcommittee on Chemical Safety, Waste Management,
           Environmental Justice, and Regulatory Oversight,
                                                    Washington, DC.
    The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 9:34 a.m. in 
room 406, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Jeff Merkley 
(chairman of the subcommittee) presiding.
    Present: Senators Merkley, Mullin, Carper, Markey, Wicker.

            OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. JEFF MERKLEY, 
             U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF OREGON

    Senator Merkley. Good morning, and welcome. This hearing of 
the Environment and Public Works Subcommittee on Chemical 
Safety, Waste Management, Environmental Justice and Regulatory 
Oversight is now underway. The topic is Everyday Exposure: 
Examining PFAS Pollution and its Impacts on Human Health.
    In 1980, when President Carter signed the Superfund into 
law, he said we had created in this Country great prosperity 
and a leadership of the entire world with our chemical industry 
and with the energy industries. But we have neglected to pay 
part of the cost of that development, and now, of course, we 
must face that responsibility.
    Today, we are here to discuss facing that responsibility, 
to understand the class of chemicals known as PFAS. Many folks 
know of PFAS chemicals from brands such as Teflon and Scotch 
Guard. But there are estimated to be thousands of PFAS 
chemicals in the use to resist water, stains, and grease. Some 
of these products include frying pans, furniture, food 
packaging, work boots, rain coats, microwave popcorn bags, 
pizza boxes, shampoos, cosmetics, contact lenses, toilet paper, 
firefighting foam, and the list goes on and on.
    In other words, it is impossible to avoid PFAS. The 
chemicals are so useful for consumer products, because they are 
durable and they are resistant to typical environmental 
processes including by water and bacteria. But those very 
qualities make them an environmental disaster. After decades of 
use, scientists are finding forever chemicals everywhere.
    Rubbing salt into the wound, they are concentrated into 
biosolids generated by wastewater treatment facilities and 
subsequently spread on crops as fertilizer, putting PFAS back 
into the water and food we consume.
    The more we learn about various PFAS chemicals, the clearer 
it becomes that any level of exposure is significant and 
dangerous. Estimates are that at least 45 percent of U.S. 
household tap water contains one or more PFAS chemicals.
    Two of the best understood PFAS chemicals, PFOA and PFOS, 
the Environmental Protection Agency has concluded there is no 
safe level in drinking water. PFAS has been linked to 
devastating health problems, breast cancer, testicular cancer, 
liver damage, thyroid disease, colitis, fertility problems, 
high blood pressure, low birth weight, developmental delays, 
high cholesterol. So this is a public health challenge, and we 
want to understand it better.
    These chemicals were first developed in the 1940's. By the 
1960's, manufacturers like 3M and DuPont knew their products 
were toxic. In fact, in 1981, DuPont removed female employees 
from working with PFAS chemicals after eight women gave birth 
to babies with severe birth defects. But these corporations 
kept these dangers secret for decades. The public didn't learn 
about them until they were revealed by a landmark lawsuit in 
the 1990's. PFAS manufacturers only began phasing out PFAS 
chemicals in the 2000's after public outcry.
    Today, scientists and researchers are revealing the dangers 
of these chemicals, underscoring the necessary ubiquity of 
their use, and identifying pollution hotspots that need to be 
contained or cleaned up. But we need extensive monitoring data 
to understand the scope, the severity, and the urgency of the 
problem, and understand how Congress and Federal agencies can 
protect the public from exposure to these chemicals. Avoiding 
PFAS poisoning cannot and should not be the responsibility of 
individual consumers.
    Thankfully, we have a panel of experts to help us 
understand this problem here today. Dr. Laurel Schaider is a 
senior scientist at the Silent Spring Institute, where she 
works to understand the health effects of PFAS exposure. As a 
result of her research, in 2022, New York State banned PFAS in 
food packaging, including pizza boxes, pastry boxes, sandwich 
wrappers, soup cups, and more. Since then, similar bans have 
passed in 12 more States.
    Joining her is Dr. Sue Fenton from North Carolina State 
University, who specializes in understanding how disease 
develops from PFAS. Her research is among the most cited 
toxicology work on PFAS exposure, and she was the first to 
identify how PFAS affects breast feeding. She previously worked 
for the Environmental Protection Agency and the National 
Institute of Environmental Health Sciences at the National 
Institutes of Health.
    And we are joined by Michael Larranaga, President and 
Managing Principal of R.E.M. Risk Consultants. He served on the 
Board of Scientific Counselors for the National Institute of 
Occupational Safety and Health, and a member of First 
Responders Advisory Group for the Department of Homeland 
Security.
    Thank you all for being here to share your expertise today. 
Now I would like to turn this over to our Ranking Member, 
Senator Mullin.

          OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. MARKWAYNE MULLIN, 
            U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF OKLAHOMA.

    Senator Mullin. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And thank you to 
all of our witnesses here. Thank you for your time, and I do 
appreciate your expertise.
    I would like to thank first of course the committee that 
spent a lot of time doing this. A lot of times we get the 
credit, but we really know it is the staff that is doing most 
of the work, right?
    I would also like to take the opportunity to introduce and 
welcome Dr. Larranaga, who received his undergraduate degree 
from Oklahoma State University. I have to put a plug there, I 
have a couple of boys going to school right there, and 
wrestling. Of course, I also have one at OSU wrestling, too, so 
I am kind of house divided there.
    He also later served as department head of the School for 
Fire Protection Safety. Almost everyone at some point in the 
past few years has heard about PFAS, unless you live underneath 
a rock, which is OK, because likely you would be in a lot 
better mental health if you did. For those who have not heard 
of PFAS, those acronyms refer to a group of chemicals first 
discovered almost 90 years ago that provided immense 
durability, strength and resilience, which is why PFAS is so 
commonly used in manufacturing markets today.
    Several thousands of PFAS have been manufactured and are 
used in a variety of industries around the world, including 
electric vehicle batteries, military and civilian aerospace 
equipment, semiconductors, linings for piping, surgically 
implanted medical devices, inhalers, water filtrations, foam 
touch streams, which all of us use today, solar panels, 
coatings for steel and concrete bridges, and you name it, they 
are pretty much involved in it.
    So, with so many different types of PFAS used in so many 
applications, blanketed banning PFAS without fully 
understanding the risks, the differences between the chemicals, 
would not only suffocate our economy, it would halt innovation. 
But it would also disproportionately impact low-income and 
rural communities who already face many other challenges.
    One thing I want to make clear is that although it is not 
nearly as impossible to show that all PFAS directly causes 
negative health conditions in humans, several studies have 
shown that significant exposures to certain PFAS can cause 
adverse health effects. However, as Congress considers PFAS 
regulations, we must also work to avoid unintentionally harming 
technological advancements and national security.
    I will pause here for a second and say, one thing that 
Congress seems to do is we overreact. I want to get it right. I 
live and walk in this world just like everybody else. I have 
six kids that are growing up in this world. And I expect to be 
around for a long time and I want my kids to be around and I 
want my grandkids to be around. So overreaction is not want I 
want to do here.
    But looking for a direction, a healthy direction, and 
moving in the right path is why you guys are here today. 
Hopefully you can incite wisdom, leave emotion out of it and 
put facts in place. And you can help steer us in the right 
direction.
    So once again, thank you for your time. With that, Mr. 
Chairman, I will yield back.
    Senator Merkley. Now I would like to turn this over to the 
Chairman of the entire committee, Senator Carper, and I believe 
this may be his last hearing.
    Senator Carper. Don't say that.
    [Laughter.]
    Senator Carper. Saving the best for last.
    Senator Merkley. Your last hearing while serving as Chair, 
and we are delighted to have you here.


          OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. THOMAS R. CARPER, 
            U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF DELAWARE

    Senator Carper. Thank you. It is wonderful to serve with 
you and our colleagues on this subcommittee.
    One of the things we get to do as we come to the end of our 
tenure in the Senate, we get to give a farewell address. Later 
this week, actually next week, I have the opportunity, a week 
or so from today, to give a farewell address. I am going to 
talk for 3 hours about PFAS that day. Not really.
    But I am going to talk a bit next week when I give my 
farewell address about all that we have accomplished in this 
room with this committee, with the involvement of the two 
gentlemen to my right. There are a couple of big issues that we 
have not been able to resolve. One of those is before us here 
today.
    I like to say, the key to success in life is you just don't 
give up, never give up. This is an important issue; it is an 
important issue for us to find common ground and something that 
is fair and reasonable, but actually provides the protection 
that we need.
    So I am delighted that the last hearing is on one of the 
toughest issues that we face. I would just urge both of you to 
make sure that in the next Congress, we don't quit, we find a 
way to yes. Thanks so much.
    Senator Merkley. Thank you very much, Chair Carper.
    We will now turn to our witnesses' testimony, starting with 
Dr. Laurel Schaider.


    STATEMENT OF LAUREL SCHAIDER, PH.D., SENIOR SCIENTIST, 
    ENVIRONMENTAL CHEMISTRY AND ENGINEERING, SILENT SPRING 
                           INSTITUTE

    Ms. Schaider. Good morning, Chairman Merkley, Ranking 
Member Mullin, and members of the committee. My name is Laurel 
Schaider. I am a senior scientist at Silent Spring Institute, 
an independent non-profit research organization investigating 
links between everyday chemicals and health. We are leaders in 
researching women's health and breast cancer prevention.
    Since 2009, I have led research on how PFAS moves through 
the environment, how people are exposed and how these chemicals 
affect our health. Thank you for the invitation to testify 
today.
    PFAS, or forever chemicals, have polluted every corner of 
the globe. They have been found in the blood of nearly every 
single American whose blood has been tested. My colleague, Dr. 
Fenton, will tell you about the many serious health effects 
associated with PFAS. I am here to tell you why that is very 
bad news.
    Exposures to PFAS are widespread. They are in our water, 
our food, consumer products, even in the air and dust in our 
homes. Although all of us have PFAS in our bodies, some 
communities and individuals have much higher levels than 
others.
    My main point is this: we need comprehensive strategies to 
address PFAS contamination, identify and reduce exposures, 
support impacted communities, and ultimately eliminate 
unnecessary uses of these harmful communities.
    PFAS are used in a wide range of everyday products, like 
non-stick cookware, stain resistant carpets, and cosmetics. My 
own research has shown that PFAS are widespread in food 
packaging and consumer products, like dental floss and 
children's clothing and furnishings. We have shown that PFAS 
can migrate out of products and end up in our bodies.
    Infants can be highly exposed, since PFAS can cross the 
placenta and contaminate breast milk. PFAS have also 
contaminated our environment. Millions of people in the U.S. 
are drinking tap water containing PFAS, according to testing by 
the U.S. Geological Survey in 2023.
    The most severe contamination is found near industrial 
facilities and military bases, airports and other locations 
where aqueous film forming foam, or AFFF, was used. In many 
other communities, PFAS contamination comes from wastewater 
treatment plants, landfills, septic systems, and sewage sludge 
used to fertilize farm land.
    Earlier this year, the EPA set standards for six PFAS in 
drinking water. These standards were set in the low parts per 
trillion range, much lower than for most other contaminants, 
underscoring their extreme toxicity. These new standards will 
go a long way to reducing exposures.
    However, they only apply to six individual PFAS, a drop in 
the bucket compared to the more than 14,000 chemicals 
classified as PFAS. And they do not protect the 44 million 
Americans who rely on a private well for their drinking water.
    The health and economic costs of PFAS are not evenly 
distributed. Public water systems serving small communities, 
particularly in rural areas, need more financial and technical 
support for testing and treatment. Our research has found that 
communities with higher proportions of Hispanic and Black 
residents are more likely to be exposed to PFAS through their 
drinking water. And PFAS can buildup in fish and shellfish, so 
tribal communities and subsistence fishers may be especially 
vulnerable.
    PFAS contamination takes a toll on communities. I have 
heard from anguished parents who feel guilt for having 
unwittingly exposed their children during pregnancy and breast 
feeding. I have heard from farmers who have lost their 
livelihood because their land and livestock were contaminated.
    And I have heard from too many people who have lost loved 
ones to cancer or other diseases that they suspect were caused 
by PFAS. They face a lifetime of worry about long-term health 
effects.
    Our health care systems have not caught up with this public 
health crisis. We need better access to PFAS blood testing, as 
recommended by a 2022 National Academies report. We need more 
resources to educate clinicians, such as those developed by our 
NIH-funded PFAS-REACH study as models for how PFAS blood 
testing can improve clinical care. New Hampshire now requires 
insurers to cover the cost of PFAS blood tests, and similar 
policies are needed nationwide.
    To protect public health and the environment, we need to 
turn off the tap on unnecessary uses of PFAS and develop safer 
alternatives. Many everyday uses of PFAS are not essential. 
PFAS in products such as cosmetics, dental floss, and home 
textiles have no real health or safety benefit. For some other 
uses, like firefighting foam, safe and effective alternatives 
already exist.
    In 2019, an international panel of experts from the fire 
engineering industry concluded that fluorine-free foams, which 
don't contain PFAS, meet the same performance standards as AFFF 
without long-term pollution risks.
    We will never solve this problem if we attempt to address 
PFAS one at a time. We need comprehensive strategies to address 
all PFAS, including fluorinated polymers as a class. Production 
of PFAS can expose workers and nearly communities, and products 
containing PFAS can contaminate the environment after their 
disposal.
    We need to stop assuming that chemicals are innocent until 
proven guilty. We are still dealing with costly messes from 
chemicals manufactured years ago, like DDT and PCBs. 
Fortunately, we also know that legislation can lead to 
significant improvements, like substantial declines in 
children's blood lead levels, and recovery of bald eagles from 
DDT in recent decades.
    We need to act now to address the current PFAS 
contamination crisis, prevent additional contamination, and 
protect future generations.
    Thank you.
    [The prepared statement of Ms. Schaider follows:]
    
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Senator Merkley. Thank you very much, Doctor.
    Now we will turn to Dr. Fenton. Thank you.


  STATEMENT OF SUE FENTON, PH.D., DIRECTOR OF THE CENTER FOR 
   HUMAN HEALTH AND THE ENVIRONMENT, PROFESSOR OF BIOLOGICAL 
           SCIENCES, NORTH CAROLINA STATE UNIVERSITY

    Ms. Fenton. Good morning, Chairman Merkley, Ranking Member 
Mullin, Chairman Carper. I am honored to be here for your last 
round.
    Two decades ago, my EPA colleagues and I discovered that 
newborn mice exposed to PFOA during pregnancy were dying. PFOA 
caused a dose-dependent decrease in birth weight of mouse pups. 
But even those that appeared healthy at birth died several days 
later.
    We reported a few years later, for the first time, that 
PFOA caused deficits in lactation, was transferred across the 
mouse placenta, was present in the breast milk of mice and 
women exposed to PFAS, and induced obesity and persistent 
breast developmental abnormalities during puberty from just a 
pregnancy exposure.
    Around that same time, PFAS and PFOA were voluntarily 
phased out of the market by the manufacturers. But by then, 
most Americans had it in their blood. Most of us here today, 
and I have looked at the room, have been exposed to PFAS as 
young adults. But a lot of the people sitting behind me were 
exposed in utero. They may have received up to 40 percent of 
their mom's body burden of PFAS.
    Today, it is likely that all U.S. children are born with a 
PFAS body burden and we have evidence of that from the CDC 
testing that is shown in Figure 1 on the screen. For several 
reasons, children are more vulnerable to the effects of PFAS 
than adults. Body burdens in children are higher, because they 
are breast fed. In America, human breast milk levels of PFAS 
and PFOA are at or above ATSDR's children drinking water 
screening level for these PFAS.
    We don't have a crystal ball to predict the severity of the 
health effects for this prenatally exposed generation. But 
scientists like myself are very concerned.
    In general, health effects associated with PFAS exposure 
include many of the things that Senator Merkley described in 
his opening remarks, and are really nicely summarized in the 
two documents that I have provided to the committee in your 
documents, the PFAS report to Congress and a highly cited paper 
by myself and other PFAS experts.
    Senator Merkley. Without objection, we will have those 
entered into the record. Thank you.
    Ms. Fenton. Although pregnant women and children are more 
vulnerable to the effects of PFAS, the 2022 National Academy 
report only provided clinical guidance for adults. Many new 
papers have emerged since this guidance was published, 
including alarming data indicating increased risks of fatty 
liver disease in children associated with PFAS exposure. 
Children don't usually have fatty liver disease.
    Due to the shorter half life in humans and rodents, GenX 
was offered by industry as a safer alternative to PFOA. 
However, my own studies in pregnant mice exposed to equivalent 
doses of PFOA and GenX finds they have similar health effects, 
especially fatty liver disease and metabolic disease. 
Therefore, GenX is not a safer alternative for PFOA.
    These toxicities in studies are super important for the 
people living in contaminated counties of North Carolina who 
were exposed to GenX in their drinking water and other 
perchloro ethers for decades. They will likely suffer health 
effects later in their life.
    NC State faculty are engaged with these communities and 
their families, and they deserve to be followed for health 
effects, just like the science panel study on the health 
effects of PFOA many years ago.
    Today, women of reproductive age were born between 
approximately 1992 and 2004, when PFAS and PFOA were at their 
highest levels in human blood. So the body burdens of these 
legacy chemicals are high. But these women, of the age that are 
in this room, are also exposed to emerging chemicals that we 
know very little about. We can't wait 20 more years to 
determine the health effects of PFAS exposures that are 
currently being passed from one generation to the next.
    Ongoing studies at federally funded labs across the U.S. 
are evaluating the effects of replacement PFAS, comparing those 
to known effects of legacy PFAS. While many studies can be 
done, we know enough today to say that replacement PFAS are not 
safe replacements.
    I ask this committee to promote the following suggestions 
to protect public health. Develop new and support current 
legislation to limit PFAS production and use as much as 
possible. Require health insurance companies to pay for PFAS 
testing for susceptible populations, like tribal communities, 
pregnant women and children.
    Empower the National Academy to update clinical guidance on 
PFAS to include children and pregnant women. Commit NIEHS and 
NC Cancer Moon Shot funds to develop a longitudinal health 
study on replacement PFAS exposure communities, especially 
those that may have been prenatally exposed. Oppose efforts to 
weaken CERCLA.
    Phase out PFAS-containing fire foam. Require companies to 
provide standards in any purified forms of any PFAS they 
produce. Fund innovative developmental methods to remove 
replacement PFAS from drinking water. And require PFAS 
producers and not taxpayers to fund the development of safe 
destruction methods that fully capture, mineralize and destroy 
PFAS.
    Please continue to move forward with our efforts to keep 
PFAS out of our environment. Remember, once it gets there, it 
takes billions of dollars and decades or generations to get rid 
of it. Our taxpayer dollars can go to better purposes than PFAS 
cleanup stemming from lucrative industries.
    I do want to say that the current rules that are in place 
are really a win-win. They are not only removing PFAS, but they 
are also removing other contaminants that are commingled.
    I want to thank you for your time and your influence.
    [The prepared statement of Ms. Fenton follows:]
    
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Senator Merkley. Thank you very much.
    I am going to defer to Senator Carper.
    Senator Carper. Thanks so much. I will just take another 
minute, if I could. There are a number of other committees that 
are meeting right now, with hearings. It is not like they are 
postponing everything until the last day or the last week, 
there is just a lot of important stuff that we need to be 
dealing with. This is certainly one of them. I am going to slip 
off to be at my other committee and try to participate in those 
hearings.
    The words of my father, as I sit here, come back to mind. 
My dad used to say the hardest things to do are sometimes the 
most important things to do. This is a hard thing to do, but it 
is also a really important one. My mother used to say, if you 
think you can, or you think you can't, you are right. If you 
think you can or you think you can't, you are right.
    A couple of years ago, at a hearing right here in this 
room, sitting, Michael, where you are sitting, was a fellow 
named Rob Wallace, a close friend of Senator John Barrasso from 
Wyoming. He was here for a hearing. He had been nominated by 
Donald Trump for a senior position in the Department of 
Interior. Rob Wallace said to us that day in his testimony, the 
bipartisan solutions are lasting solutions. Bipartisan 
solutions are lasting solutions.
    So I would just say, as I prepare to weigh anchor and set 
sail into the sunrise in a week or so that I hope that Senator 
Mullin, you and Chairman Merkley can somehow do what the rest 
of us have been unable to do, and that is to come to the right 
solution here. If you think you can or you think you can't, you 
are right. And I think you can.
    Thank you all very much.
    Senator Merkley. Senator Carper, thank you for the many 
quotes you have instilled in our minds. That is certainly one 
of them: if you think you can or you think you can't, you are 
right. Another is, it is not that hard, just do more of what 
works and less of what doesn't.
    Senator Carper. Find out what works and do more of that. 
There you go.
    Senator Merkley. And if you want to go fast, go alone. If 
you want to go far, go together. So thank you for these words 
of wisdom over the years.
    Senator Carper. I will be gone but not forgotten. That is a 
plus.
    Senator Merkley. That is right.
    Dr. Larranaga, welcome.

 STATEMENT OF MICHAEL D. LARRANAGA, PH.D., P.E., PRESIDENT AND 
          MANAGING PRINCIPAL, R.E.M. RISK CONSULTANTS

    Mr. Larranaga. Thank you, Chairman Merkley, Ranking Member 
Mullin, and Chairman Carper.
    I am testifying here today on behalf of the American 
Industrial Hygiene Association, the association for scientist 
professionals committed to preserving occupational and 
environmental health in the workplace and community.
    One of the headlines I want you to remember from my 
testimony today is that the use of PFAS chemicals is vital to 
the critical infrastructure of the United States. We must 
manage these chemicals responsibly and balance their use 
against the risk of using proposed alternatives.
    The use of PFAS is indeed critical, not only in the sense 
that our critical infrastructure provides a backbone for the 
U.S. Government to ensure our security, but also in the sense 
that our critical infrastructure is vital to maintaining the 
American way of life. For example, PFAS as described earlier in 
this hearing are used in the manufacture of semiconductors and 
electronics, medical equipment, pharmaceuticals, herbicides, 
insecticides, plastics, airplanes, automobiles, buildings, and 
thousands of other applications that we rely on every day.
    One aspect of my job is to assist companies in identifying 
alternatives for PFAS-containing firefighting foams. This is no 
easy task, as the PFAS containing aqueous film forming foam, or 
AFFF, is by far the best firefighting foam available. Companies 
are spending millions of dollars, sometimes per facility, to 
transition away from AFFF to fluorine-free foams. And the U.S. 
Government is doing the same.
    Our critical infrastructure stakeholders are replacing 
their AFFF fire suppression systems at great cost with less 
capable fluorine-free foams. It is important to note that the 
historical legacy AFFF foams using long-chain PFAS, you may 
have heard of these as CA foams, are no longer produced, sold 
or imported into the United States. We as a country are no 
longer recklessly disposing of mass volumes of chemicals 
containing PFAS directly into the environment.
    Modern AFFF formulations that meet the 2019 military 
specification contain trace amounts of PFOA of PFOS. Just to 
put that into perspective, the 2019 Intercontinental Terminals 
Fire in Deer Park, Texas, released 132, almost 133 pounds of 
air emissions per hour during the first 24 hours, eventually 
releasing more than 16 million pounds of toxic air emissions. 
Responding fire departments attempted to extinguish the fire 
with fluorine-free foams, and the fire burned for 51 hours.
    During the 51st hour, PFAS-containing AFFF was applied, and 
the fire was extinguished 13 hours later. During those 13 hours 
of AFFF application, the use of the modern military spec AFFF 
foam would have resulted in about 30 ounces of PFOA or PFOS 
introduced into the environment, or about two and a half of 
these coffee cups.
    So the risk versus reward calculation here is this: is it 
better for the environment and surrounding communities to be 
exposed to 16 million pounds of toxic air emissions, which is 
30 ounces of PFOA or PFOS? Had MilSpec AFFF been applied 
initially, the fire would have likely only burned for a couple 
of hours, if that, and we could have avoided releasing millions 
of pounds of toxic emissions into the air, most likely with a 
couple of ounces of long-chain PFAS released.
    According to Dwight Williams of the industrial firefighting 
team that extinguished the fire, the fire could not have been 
extinguished without the use of AFFF. In addition, there were 
51 hours of fluorine-free foam application and fluorine-free 
foams are not without their own toxicological drawbacks, being 
more toxic to certain types of aquatic life than AFFF.
    Another examples is the chemical fire in Rockton, Illinois. 
It was brought under control in 3 hours with the use of AFFF, 
when officials required the fire department to stop the 
application of AFFF for environmental concerns. The chemical 
fire then burned for another eight and a half days, generating 
21 million pounds of air emissions which could have been 
avoided.
    The fluorine-free foams are simply not as effective at 
attacking complex fires that occur in industrial facilities, 
onboard ships, or during an airplane crash, for that matter. 
Major airports are transitioning away from AFFF to fluorine-
free foams, and the Department of Defense is doing the same in 
all but the most critical applications.
    I am sitting here today to tell you that if my family and I 
are aboard a jetliner that crashes, please soak us in AFFF. 
Why? Because jetliner fires are dangerous. Fire moves 
exceedingly fast and AFFF is simply superior at putting out 
fires.
    It is important to recognize that AIHA and I recognize the 
toxicological properties inherent in these PFAS, and in no way 
encourages the improper use or disposal. AIHA supports the 
responsible management of these chemicals. However, we 
recommended a balanced and commonsense approach to chemical 
management and regulation, whereby the implementation of the 
risk versus reward calculus includes the assessment of the 
consequences of requiring the use of alternatives, removing 
these chemicals from the marketplace, and regulating these 
chemicals as an entire class instead of health and risk-based 
frameworks.
    In summary, the use of PFAS chemicals is vital to the 
critical infrastructure of the United States. We must manage 
these chemicals responsibly and balance their use against the 
risk of alternatives.
    On behalf of myself and the AIHA, thank you all for the 
opportunity to provide feedback on this important topics.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Larranaga follows:]
    
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Senator Merkley. We are delighted to have you share that 
information on foam, and I almost feel like we need a separate 
hearing to examine the complexities of the risk-reward that you 
have referred to.
    Today, we are primarily focused on consumer products that 
people come in contact with. I want to start simply by, when a 
lot of people hear about PFAS, they hear Teflon. The most 
common thing in our homes that has Teflon, as far as I am 
aware, are no-stick pans like this one. Is it correct, I will 
direct this to you, Dr. Schaider, is this PFAS? And is this a 
simple case of, we could just simply retire these pans? Does 
some of this forever non-stick Teflon get into our blood and 
our children's blood when we use these pans?
    Ms. Schaider. Thank you, Senator, for the question. Yes, 
there are still frying pans that are made with Teflon. Teflon 
is a long polymer, PFAS. In the production of Teflon, smaller 
PFAS molecules are used and put together to make the long 
polymers and other PFAS are used as processing aids.
    So frying pans are what I would consider a non-essential 
use of PFAS. We certainly have other ways to make cookware 
without the use of these toxic chemicals for everyday uses. 
There are concerns about PFAS exposures through the use of 
cookware, because the smaller PFAS molecules can come off of 
that cookware and expose people. There are also concerns about 
the life cycle. So in communities where Teflon is manufactured, 
with local environmental contamination and exposures among 
workers. Then at the end of a product's useful life span, those 
PFAS ultimately can end up in landfills or emissions from 
incinerators.
    Senator Merkley. So we have various agencies that evaluate 
the risk to our citizens of different products. If this is non-
essential and it presents a health risk, why do we still have 
Teflon coated pans being sold to the public?
    Ms. Schaider. I think that is a great question. I think 
because industry has been able to make the case that newer PFAS 
are less bio accumulative in peoples' bodies, that they are 
still acceptable to use. But I would argue that the newer 
replacement PFAS that are in use, as Dr. Fenton described, are 
not safe. And in cases like cookware, we should find 
alternatives to PFAS, because they are simply not an essential 
use.
    Senator Merkley. Dr. Fenton, you referred in your testimony 
to GenX. People listening to that hear ``Generation X.'' But 
that wasn't at all what you were referring to. You were 
referring to a chemical replacement. Can you explain a little 
bit about that?
    Ms. Fenton. Sure, I would be happy to. I am talking about 
HFPO-DA. It is a dimer acid, affectionately called GenX. There 
is more than one, multiple chemicals. The one thing really 
important about the GenX work that we have done is that when we 
saw the health effects in the animal studies that we have done, 
we couldn't measure it in their blood anymore. But we know we 
gave it to them.
    So at early life stages, or right before birth, we know we 
could measure it in the blood of the animals. But the people 
living in the areas that have been affected by GenX for 
decades, you can't measure it in their blood either anymore. We 
know that if you are exposed, the health effects can still 
happen.
    Senator Merkley. When you referred to the mice studies that 
you were looking at, those were PFAS studies. But there have 
been similar studies on GenX?
    Ms. Fenton. Yes, there are, Jane Hoppin, for example, at NC 
State University, and others, are doing biomonitoring studies 
to look at many of the replacement PFAS that are known to be in 
the water in the Cape Fear River Basin, and have been there for 
decades, like I said.
    Senator Merkley. Dr. Schaider, I have read in the past that 
microwave popcorn packages, like this one here, have non-stick 
surfaces, but that it's PFAS. Is that true? Is there PFAS in 
our microwave popcorn packages?
    Ms. Schaider. Thank you for the question, Senator. Testing 
that Silent Spring Institute led in 2017 found that PFAS are 
common, were common in fast food packaging. Other studies found 
that microwave popcorn bags also contained PFAS as a grease-
proof agent.
    In the meantime, some States have put in place bans on PFAS 
in food packaging. Then most recently, earlier this year, the 
FDA announced that PFAS are no longer allowed in paper food 
packaging as grease-proofing agents. So my understanding is 
that microwave popcorn and other paper-based food packaging 
should no longer have PFAS. I am not sure about imported food 
packaging, and how much testing and enforcement there is for 
imported food packaging.
    Senator Merkley. So in these cases where PFAS has been 
replaced, what has it been replaced by, and is that equally 
dangerous?
    Ms. Schaider. In some cases, the solutions to PFAS in food 
packaging are a simple replacement. In our study of fast food 
packaging, we found about half of wrappers did contain PFAS and 
half did not. I would be happy to provide some additional 
information about what the replacement chemicals are.
    But my understanding is that the replacements, other non-
PFAS food additives would not be as persistent or pose the same 
health risks.
    Senator Merkley. I have heard that paraffin, palm oil wax, 
and coconut wax are often used as a replacement for PFAS in 
food packaging. Are those dangerous to our health?
    Ms. Schaider. Those would be safer alternatives than PFAS.
    Senator Merkley. In the States that have--I see I am over 
my initial time here. I am going to yield to my colleague, but 
we may have time to go through several rounds of questions.
    Senator Mullin?
    Senator Mullin. Thank you so much. It is not like we have a 
lot of people waiting in line, so I wasn't too worried about 
you going long on that. But I do appreciate you looking at the 
time.
    Ma'am, we were talking about what is in food packaging, in 
the popcorn and the non-stick pans, which, the consumers are 
the ones who want to buy those pans, because cast iron is hard 
to deal with. For a guy that doesn't cook at all except Spam, I 
know how that sounds, but yes, I am the guy that likes Spam, 
OK? I am the one that buys that stuff, because it is the only 
thing I cook at my house up here in D.C.
    I also want to bring to everybody's notice, it is also on 
all of our touch screens, right? PFAS is in everyone's. So by 
using our touch screens, by using our phones, which everybody 
here has, and every one of our schools are giving them out for, 
that is how they are doing their homework now and doing their 
work at school. Is this contaminating our kids, too, every time 
they use the phone, every time they do their work at school?
    Ms. Schaider. Thank you for that question, Senator. I am 
not aware of studies that have looked at the extent of PFAS 
coming off of phones and touch screens. I wonder about that 
with my own children as well.
    But I do worry about the potential for PFAS to come off of 
products and end up in people's bodies.
    Senator Mullin. I bring that up because the pan, you are 
talking about the food, but the Teflon is designed to stay 
there. I mean, these, if you look at my phone, which you can't 
see, I don't even replace it every time I crack my phone, 
because I know I am going to drop it the next day. But it 
cracks up, we see them crack up, it is constantly on our head, 
it is constantly on our fingers, we are constantly using our 
fingers.
    So I don't know how this isn't the same as using the pan. I 
mean, I am serious. If you are talking about contamination, how 
does it transfer from one place to the next if it is not 
transferring by touch? And I say that because we don't know. 
And so when we are moving forward to put a ban on PFAS, one, 
what are we going to replace it with? I don't think coconut wax 
is going to replace these touch screens, right?
    When we start talking about insulating cups, I will leave 
the names out of them, but my kids drive me nuts with all these 
stupid insulating cups every time they get in my truck. It is 
like some fad that they carry. And it drives me nuts. But 
everyone one of those insulated cups for the most part have 
PFAS in them, right?
    Ms. Schaider. Yes.
    Senator Mullin. So what is it, at what level do we stop, 
and what level is it contaminated, which level is it isn't? Is 
it just on the disposable side of it, that we are not disposing 
of it right?
    These are questions that we need to talk about. Because it 
is something that we use in our everyday life that we have to 
be careful about. Yes, ma'am, go ahead.
    Ms. Fenton. If I might, Senator Mullin, I want to suggest a 
couple of things here. Yes, these are all ways that we could be 
exposed. We do know that PFAS can be dermally absorbed, so, 
through your skin. Some can be dermally absorbed. They are 
water soluble. So they are going to go into your skin.
    But this may not be the most prominent way that we are 
being exposed. I want to suggest that we do spend some time 
talking about PFAS in foods, foodstuffs, drinking water. 
Because those are major pathways of ingestion and exposure for 
all Americans.
    So there are some new work coming out of East Carolina 
University and NC State showing that produce grown in our State 
is contaminated with PFAS, just because of the soil that they 
are being grown in. Now, that is a shame. I hope that we can 
get to a place where we can get rid of the PFAS in the ground 
that the dairy cattle may eat the grass from that ground and 
our children could eat those blueberries.
    But making sure we have clean drinking water and food that 
is not contaminated with PFAS is a really major win.
    Senator Mullin. I would ask on, what exactly are we talking 
about with the health risks that it is exposing to? Because 
most of that which you are talking about, because plumbing is 
my background, and I also carry a C license, operating license 
for water treatment plants and wastewater treatment plants.
    Most of it is delivered through the water system from 
irrigation. But what we actually don't know is what harm it is 
actually causing, what is the long-term effects. We are 
identifying PFAS as there, but it is like we are putting the 
cart before the horse. We are saying that it is there, so it 
must cause some type of issue.
    But there is not enough study to actually say it is causing 
these issues. I just want to be cautious. I don't want to 
overreact. And I am not getting into all my questions, because 
I want to talk about semiconductors, too, sir, but I am running 
out of time. We will circle back on this.
    The whole point I am trying to make right here is, we all 
see that it is everywhere. It is everywhere. But I don't think 
we are even close to knowing the exact studies of if it is 
harmful and if it is, which direction is it harmful? At what 
point is it harmful? Is it just at the manufacturing stage? Is 
it in the raw form in itself? And so, yes, ma'am, you can 
finish, and I will go over my time.
    Ms. Fenton. I actually have a good answer for that. Many of 
the PFAS that we are talking about today don't change form. So 
it would be whatever, the PFOA, for instance, if you are 
exposed to PFOA, that is what is in your blood, and that is 
what stays in your blood. It is not easily removed from the 
body.
    We do know that many, a good handful of PFAS, we do know 
the health effects. I have put on the docket two really good 
reviews of the health effects of PFAS. One was written by 
Federal employees working across the entire base of the Federal 
Government, anybody who worked with anything with PFAS was on 
this committee that wrote the PFAS Report to Congress. Numerous 
health effects, both in humans and toxicology studies and 
ecology studies, are in there.
    Also, some colleagues of mine wrote specific, targeted 
areas that have the biggest weight of evidence for health 
effects of PFAS. And those do include cancer, birth weight 
reduction of newborn infants. So specifically for the newborn 
infant issue----
    Senator Mullin. I am sorry, I am almost 2 minutes over 
time. I apologize.
    Ms. Fenton. So for the newborn infants, we can estimate the 
amount of decrease in their birth weight by the amount of 
increase in the PFAS in the mom's blood. There is a direct 
correlation.
    Senator Mullin. I am over time. We will get back to you, we 
will circle back around.
    Senator Merkley. We are going to turn to Senator Wicker.
    Senator Wicker. Thank you very much. I am intrigued by the 
pronunciation of this substance. So since the last witness says 
PFAS, I will say PFAS. Some people say PFAS.
    I want to nail something down, if I can. Is there a 
category of PFAS, and I will ask this to you, Dr. Larranaga, 
that is not harmful as compared to a type of PFAS that is? And 
here is where I am going. There is a rather far-reaching 
definition of PFAS as ``any compound containing at least one 
fully fluorinated carbon atom.''
    I am told by some people that this combines a type of PFAS 
that is OK, and not harmful, with a type that is. And that the 
type of PFAS that is not harmful is used in 95 percent of our 
ammunitions, and a number of very, very important things to our 
economy, not to include national defense. So if the panel, 
starting with Dr. Larranaga, would discuss that, I would 
appreciate it.
    Mr. Larranaga. Thank you, Senator. It is my understanding 
that the fluoropolymer substances like PTFE, for example, that 
is used in many of our defense systems, 95 percent of our 
ammunition has a similar type of polymer chemical, almost all 
of our weapons systems have these types of chemicals. And that 
the PFAS of concern did not come out of those, for 
bioavailability, so they aren't available to the body for 
absorption.
    Senator Wicker. Although they do contain one fully 
fluorinated carbon atom?
    Mr. Larranaga. Yes, sir.
    Senator Wicker. They do not propose, they do not comprise a 
harmful substance?
    Mr. Larranaga. That is correct. One of the issues is, that 
could be caused if you are heating them. If you are heating 
them far above the temperature that they are rated for, that 
could happen.
    Senator Wicker. For example?
    Mr. Larranaga. For example, a pan. That is a complete use 
where we could remove that from the marketplace without any 
adverse effect to our infrastructure or defense.
    Senator Wicker. OK, so are we, should we be concerned that 
certain domestic suppliers will not be able to meet the demand 
for very important products as they continue to fight over this 
definition?
    Mr. Larranaga. Yes, sir. If we were to ban as a country all 
PFAS chemicals with a broad brush, it would affect our supply 
chain that would lead directly to our military, public health, 
and all these critical infrastructure sectors. One example is 
the guidance systems on airplanes and ships and a lot of other 
drones and things like that use semiconductors that, in which 
PFAS was used to create those semiconductors. In addition, the 
wiring, the insulation on the wiring has PFAS-containing 
chemicals as insulators to the wiring.
    If we were to broadly brush these into a regulator where we 
couldn't use them anymore, airplanes would have to get heavier, 
they would carry less people, they would carry less cargo, and 
they would become a lot heavier. So what that would mean is, we 
would be burning a lot more carbon to move the same amount of 
cargo or people.
    Senator Wicker. And public health would not be any better 
off?
    Mr. Larranaga. Public health would not be better off, 
because you would be increasing the amount of air pollution 
that you put into the environment, which ends up in our oceans 
anyway.
    Senator Wicker. OK, well, let me ask, Mr. Chairman, to at 
this point enter into the record a report on critical per and 
polyfluoroalkyl substance use.
    Senator Merkley. Without objection.
    [The referenced information follows:]
    
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Senator Wicker. Thank you. If other members--my time has 
expired but I am sure other members of the panel would like to 
respond.
    Senator Merkley. I think that is an invitation, if anybody 
else wanted to followup on his question.
    Ms. Schaider. Thank you for your question, Senator Wicker. 
To my knowledge, there are no PFAS that I would consider 
completely safe. Different PFAS have different chemical 
structures and different toxicity. We know a lot about PFOS, 
PFOA, and a handful of other PFAS chemicals that are frequently 
found in drinking water supplies, and in people's blood. There 
are newer PFAS replacement chemicals that are more mobile in 
the environment. We have been studying them for a shorter 
amount of time, but as Dr. Fenton said, they raise many of the 
same health concerns.
    When we talk about fluorinated polymers, like PTFE, those 
are large molecules and they are less likely to enter our cells 
and may not have the same type of toxicity. As Dr. Larranaga 
said, if you overheat those, though, they can produce toxic 
fumes. For instance, in your home, if you overheat a Teflon 
pan, those fumes can be really toxic for pet birds. I can't 
imagine that they are good for our health, either.
    I would add another important point, though, that 
fluorinated polymers don't occur by themselves. Polymers are 
produced from shorter PFAS chemicals that are stitched 
together, and products containing a fluorinated polymer also 
contain a mixture of different PFAS chemicals. So we never are 
exposed to just one PFAS at a time.
    So even fluorinated polymers raise concerns about exposures 
among workers and fluoropolymer production facilities and in 
the communities, for instance, in North Carolina, that Dr. 
Fenton described, in the communities around those facilities 
where drinking water, soil, sediment can be contaminated.
    Then at the end of a product's useful life span, there are 
concerns about disposal, what happens to those PFAS after we 
throw away products that contain PFAS. If they are incinerated, 
there are concerns about air emissions and what that might mean 
for communities around incinerators that are often 
environmental justice communities. Or putting them in a 
landfill could lead to slow release from landfills over time as 
well.
    In terms of the different types of uses of PFAS, I would 
point to the essential uses framework, which I think provides a 
really nice path forward for identifying where we can start 
making reductions in PFAS use now. It is certainly easier to 
take PFAS out of a Teflon pan.
    Another common use I would point to are dental flosses. 
Oral-B Glide dental floss, which is made with Teflon, we are 
putting Teflon in our mouth. To me that is a non-essential use 
that we could absolutely do away with right now. If we are 
talking about critical infrastructure, cell phones, 
semiconductors, those might take longer to find alternatives to 
phaseout their use.
    Senator Wicker. That statement is very much appreciated, 
the last sentence.
    It seems that I have mispronounced your name, Larranaga?
    Mr. Larranaga. Yes, sir.
    Senator Wicker. OK, I have done better.
    Mr. Larranaga. Thank you. First of all, Teflon dental floss 
is absolutely necessary. My teeth are packed so tight that that 
is the only thing I can get in there.
    [Laughter.]
    Mr. Larranaga. We agree that we shouldn't improperly 
dispose of PFAS-containing materials. But let me give you an 
example of how important PFAS chemicals are. The firefighting 
foams that we are replacing the PFAS-containing AFFF with 
contain fluorinated polymers.
    So if we were to remove these chemicals from the 
marketplace with a broad brush, we would be left without the 
ability to fight these large fires, even if we have to fight 
them in a compromised fashion, because these new foams are not 
as effective as AFFF.
    Ms. Fenton. Can I comment, please?
    Senator Wicker, I read just last night a document from the 
Federal Aviation Administration that there are two MilSpec 
AFFF, they are on the QPL, right now. We do have safe 
replacements. I know at least they have listed two, and they 
were considering a third one.
    So although it seems ominous, especially for the defense 
systems, some of the microcomputers, things like that, to 
replace something that seems essential, we are being successful 
at it. Someone, in fact, one of the companies that makes the 
QPL PFAS-free foam is a company that made AFFF foam. So they 
are doing it. They are still making money, they are still 
building their industry, and they are using their imagination 
and their experts to make a safer product.
    So I do think it is doable, and it is happening already. I 
just want to leave you with that impression.
    Senator Wicker. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for that 
indulgence, and perhaps witnesses can supplement their answers 
for the record.
    Senator Merkley. Thank you very much, Senator.
    I want to go back to a point you made, Dr. Fenton, about 
understanding the major pathways of human contamination. There 
are probably plenty of places where PFAS is, and it may be the 
insulation on wires, that may have a very low impact on human 
health, especially if they are hidden behind a wall on an 
aircraft.
    But as I understand it, the main things you are identifying 
are PFAS that is in our food and in our water. On the food 
side, the mention was about biosolids, and what we are talking 
about is in the human waste that is then repurposed as 
fertilizer. So it is interesting that when some PFAS goes 
through our bodies and doesn't stay in our blood, it finds its 
way back into our food. And maybe the second time around, it 
has an impact.
    So I really want to focus on those major sources of 
contamination that affects our health. You noted one aspect of 
that, studies that really focused on holding other factors 
constant. There is lower birth weight in humans who have a 
higher exposure to PFAS. I assume this is by taking blood 
samples.
    Ms. Fenton. Yes.
    Senator Merkley. So does this hold constant, all the other 
factors, like cigarette smoking is associated with lower birth 
weight, is this an area that we really have a pretty clear 
understanding of an impact?
    Ms. Fenton. Yes, sir, thank you for the question.
    There are dozens of studies that have shown consistent 
effects from PFAS-associated decreases in birth weight. Those 
are epidemiological studies that take into consideration all 
the things that you were just mentioning, smoking, poor 
nutrition, socioeconomic status, even the BMI of the mother. 
They take those many variables into consideration when they do 
the analysis in the studies. They are controlled for, so those 
are things that they control for.
    Senator Merkley. OK, so we sese this in human studies. But 
then you also mentioned mice studies. In the mice studies, they 
show the same thing. You mentioned mice that, I think you 
called them pups, is that the correct term?
    Ms. Fenton. Yes.
    Senator Merkley. And that we have seen the same effects. So 
we have both the human studies and the laboratory studies 
reinforcing each other?
    Ms. Fenton. Correct. In fact, the University of California 
San Francisco did a systematic review of all the studies that 
had shown birth weight outcomes in mouse studies, and at the 
time, all the studies that had shown birth weight outcomes in 
human studies. They reviewed them both altogether.
    So when I say a systematic review, that is all the 
information that is available in the literature.
    Senator Merkley. So lower birth weight can be an indication 
of other things, but maybe not the immediate highest concern. 
But it is an indication of something that is going on. But you 
mentioned some very specific things, like breast development 
abnormalities. Is that in humans or is that in mice, or both?
    Ms. Fenton. I first reported it in mice, and since then, 
there have been nine studies in women showing that PFAS and 
PFOA specifically and a few other handful of other PFAS are 
associated with women not being able to nurse their children. 
So they have a shorter duration of lactation, is the specific 
term they are using in these papers.
    And this is not just in the U.S. Several of these studies 
are from other countries. Several are from the U.S. They are 
showing very consistent----
    Senator Merkley. I want to keep this moving. How about 
other diseases where the studies have shown a significant 
correlation? For example, you mentioned fatty liver disease. I 
don't even know what that is, but maybe you are about to tell 
me. Also, are there other things? Do they show higher cancer 
rates, for example, for breast cancer or prostate cancer?
    Ms. Fenton. Yes. So some of the things that we have in 
common are thyroid disease. Definitely changes in fatty liver. 
Fatty liver is when, and you can tell if a person has fatty 
liver from their clinical enzymes. When you go to the doctor 
and they say they are going to do a liver panel on you, you can 
tell if you have some adverse outcomes in your liver based on 
those clinical, easy to acquire outcomes. You do a blood draw 
and they can tell you then.
    But the fat that is accumulating in the liver can lead to 
non-reparable damage to the liver. That would be like 
steatosis, when the liver can become fibrous. Once that 
happens, it is not reversible. Whereas fatty liver is 
reversible.
    Senator Merkley. So if you were to name the top four health 
concerns, would they be the ones you have just mentioned? Or 
what would the top four health concerns be that there is clear 
studies associated with higher PFAS?
    Ms. Fenton. Birth outcomes, one. Metabolic disease.
    Senator Merkley. Birth outcomes, meaning miscarriages? 
Meaning stillborn? Or simply the lower weight?
    Ms. Fenton. Smaller birth weight. And there is really good 
evidence that links smaller birth weight to long-term adverse 
health outcomes. There are thousands of papers that link it to 
that. This is not just a PFAS issue. Anything, like poor 
nutrition, cigarette smoking, anything that causes lower birth 
weight can lead to adverse outcomes later in life, long-term.
    So definitely birth outcomes. The thyroid disease is a big 
deal. Immune suppression I would say is one of the biggest 
issues. And we do know that PFAS suppresses the ability of the 
body to properly respond to a vaccination. This is really 
important in our children. And if children are given PFAS in 
their breast, from their mom, this really brings home a very 
important point. We want moms to breast feed their babies 
because they provide to the baby immunoglobulins in the milk 
that help the little infant develop their immune system. But if 
PFAS are inhibiting that proper production of a proper immune 
system, this can lead to long-term immune problems for the 
person.
    Senator Merkley. Thank you.
    Senator Mullin?
    Senator Mullin. How many different forms of PFAS is there?
    Ms. Fenton. A lot.
    Ms. Schaider. The number seems to keep changing. The most 
recent----
    Senator Mullin. Thousands?
    Ms. Schaider [continuing]. estimate by EPA is over 14,000.
    Senator Mullin. OK, so I just, I know, have we ever been 
able to identify which PFAS is causing this problem? Just yes 
or I don't know.
    Ms. Schaider. Yes.
    Senator Mullin. So we can specifically look at those and 
maybe be able to separate those from the other ones. Because I 
mean, when you are talking about immune shots, right, every 
needle out there has Teflon on it. That's what the plunger is 
able to slide up and down in. And so when they are getting 
injections, you are getting shots, it is Teflon. I am just 
saying that it is literally everywhere. And I don't know how 
you can possibly think we are going to ban PFAS if we don't 
look for what the alternative is going to be. And there is 
14,000 and counting different forms of PFAS.
    And I go back to my original statement, is, at which form, 
because you are creating it, so it is a chemical that you are 
creating, at which form or which deterioration does it become 
harmful? Where is the curve? Is it at the final product or the 
curve going down?
    I know you have a lot to say about it, but I have to move. 
I am just bringing the question to mind, because we are talking 
about the effects but we are not talking about when it actually 
takes place.
    I want to talk about semiconductors, and I need to send 
something for the record. Mr. Chairman, I would like to submit 
for the record a letter emphasizing the critical role certain 
PFAS play in manufacturing for the semiconductor industry.
    Senator Merkley. Without objection, so ordered.
    [The referenced information follows:]
    
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Senator Mullin. Dr. Larranaga, is that close?
    Mr. Larranaga. Yes, sir.
    Senator Mullin. OK. Given your experience in leading risk 
assessments in the semiconductor industry, what are the 
potential impacts of blanket regulatory ban on PFAS in this 
sector?
    Mr. Larranaga. So there are several impacts in this sector, 
one being the fabs which are tremendously expensive that build 
semiconductors would have to retool. In order to do precision 
manufacturing at the nano scale, at least currently with the 
technologies we have, PFAS are required. There is no way to do 
it without PFAS with the level of precision that is necessary 
to make a semiconductor chip.
    If we were not to be able to make those semiconductor 
chips, a couple of things would happen. One, our chips would 
have to become larger. Two, they would be less efficient and 
less capable as well as being less durable. Meanwhile, our 
competitors, China and other countries, would be increasing 
their computing power at the same time we would be decreasing 
our computing power.
    So from a semiconductor perspective, it is very important 
that we are able to use PFAS in this industry.
    Senator Mullin. So basically what I am hearing is that it 
could greatly disrupt the supply chain?
    Mr. Larranaga. It would tremendously disrupt the supply 
chain, yes, sir.
    Senator Mullin. Pointing out to other things that are 
involved with PFAS, many life-saving medications containing 
PFAS substances are antidepressants, autoinflammatory drugs, 
certain essential cancer treatments, and even Lipitor contains 
PFAS. I just point that out once again, it is literally 
everywhere.
    Sir, do you agree that this indicates that not all PFAS 
have the same impact on human health and therefore should be 
treated differently based on each chemical's properties and 
risk profile?
    Mr. Larranaga. Yes, sir, I do believe that the different 
PFAS chemicals will have different chemical properties and that 
we should look at them individually based on health risk 
frameworks.
    Not only medications, but actually medical instruments, 
like the semiconductors, they would have to get larger. Imagine 
a pacemaker inserted into someone's chest would have to become 
larger, also, because the PFAS chemicals that are used in the 
circuitry or on the wiring and in the actual chips that are 
used, the brain of the pacemaker. So those would have to become 
larger as well.
    So it has these--banning these as an entire class has these 
long-reaching effects that would affect our public health and 
health care at large.
    Senator Mullin. So what we are searching for here is 
instructions or direction on as we are looking for policy, how 
do we approach regulating it? And I think that is the question 
that we could tackle to some degree, if you have thoughts, 
short, because I am a little over time. But for all of you 
guys, what is the best way for us to tackle this?
    I know, Chairman Merkley, he is being thoughtful in this 
direction, which I appreciate. We understand not one size fits 
all, in my opening statement. We want to make sure that we 
don't overreact. So just really quickly if you could, what are 
your thoughts?
    Ms. Fenton. Senator, if I could, I think that there are 
essential uses, potentially. And potentially, we are not 
exposed to the products very often. But we may be exposed to 
the waste. I want to just mention that.
    Proper disposal of the waste in these industries is super 
important. Because if you think about it, think about how few 
people may actually ever touch a semiconductor or put their 
fingers on the wiring that my colleague is talking about. But 
the waste coming from the industries that make them go into 
water bodies, go into the air that we all breathe.
    Senator Mullin. So focus on the waste. I think that was 
kind of a point I made before, at which level does it become 
harmful.
    Ms. Fenton. Yes. And to your point earlier, when you think 
about the classes of PFAS that might cause health effects, the 
current regulation that is in place from the EPA will remove 
the compounds that cause, that we know already cause some of 
these health effects. So if we can keep that regulation in 
place, it will take those PFAS out of water, out of air.
    Senator Mullin. The problem is that some of those 
compounds, it is taking away from the critical needs that we 
already have. Some of the compounds to which they are referring 
to, the EPA, it is, what is it taking out of the industry that 
we are using every single day that is critical of our life.
    And so to some degree, I do feel like the EPA, not some 
degree, the EPA in its direction I think overreacted. Do I have 
time to look for that response, too, sir? You are the chairman.
    Senator Merkley. Why don't we come back after Senator 
Markey?
    Senator Mullin. Oh, sorry, sir. I didn't know you were 
here. I will yield back.
    Senator Merkley. Senator Markey?
    Senator Markey. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for 
having this very important hearing.
    Dr. Schaider, thank you for your years of service in 
women's health space. My wife was a two-star admiral in charge 
of all women's health in America. So I appreciate your service.
    Recent reports and studies show that soils examined show 
that hazardous waste incinerators have elevated levels of PFAS. 
These incinerators are disproportionately in disadvantaged 
communities. Toxic PFAS emissions get into the atmosphere when 
they can hurt children, pregnant women, agriculture soil, air.
    Can continuous monitoring of any air emissions protect our 
communities from being exposed to PFAS coming from hazardous 
waste incinerators?
    Ms. Schaider. Thank you for that question, Senator Markey. 
I think the concerns about incineration of PFAS are really 
critical to consider. I appreciate your raising concerns about 
environmental justice and the communities that live around 
incinerators.
    There are new, improving methods for how we measure PFAS. I 
think it is important if there is going to be incineration of 
PFAS-containing materials that we are carefully monitoring for 
the full suite of PFAS that are there.
    But I have concerns about incineration and what that might 
mean for exposures among people living in this communities. I 
think those kinds of life cycle issues are really why we need 
to be really judicious when we are creating these highly 
persistent chemicals that really don't break down.
    Senator Markey. Thank you.
    Dr. Schaider, firefighters protect us from harmful fires. 
But we need to help protect them from being harmed by the gear 
they wear, which is full of PFAS. So firefighters are just 
walking around covered in PFAS. We need to protect our 
protectors from cancer clusters in firehouses.
    Dr. Schaider, is it true that PFAS in firefighters' turnout 
gear and firefighting foams can harm their health?
    Ms. Schaider. Thank you for that question as well. There is 
a huge concern right now among firefighters about their 
exposures to PFAS. As you said, that can come from the 
firefighter turnout gear, which has typically had a PFAS Teflon 
layer.
    Senator Markey. Are there alternatives?
    Ms. Schaider. There are alternatives, and actually, our 
State of Massachusetts just instituted a ban on PFAS in 
firefighter turnout gear. So I am proud of our State for 
advancing that. I think it is an example of when we set a goal 
to reduce exposures and protecting firefighters' health, it is 
critically important that new research and development can 
provide solutions, so that we are keeping our protectors safe 
but also not exposing them to toxic chemicals.
    Senator Markey. I agree. And I think it is something that 
we should think about on a national level, because, well, 
obviously so many of our firefighters do die from cancer. We 
want to make sure that we give them the protections which they 
deserve.
    The Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry 
conducted an exposure assessment in Westfield, Massachusetts, 
one of the 10 cities included in the Centers for Disease 
Control and Prevention's PFAS Exposure Assessment. While random 
households were invited to participate, the data collected was 
not fully shared with the public.
    Dr. Schaider, do you agree that more data transparency 
would be helpful to allow the public to understand their 
exposures, risks and pathways?
    Ms. Schaider. Thanks for that question. I know that the 
ATSDR has released summary statistics for the results of blood 
testing that they conducted in Westfield. I am not familiar 
with the specifics.
    Senator Markey. Should that be made fully available?
    Ms. Schaider. Certainly the summary statistics of how 
people, in the blood levels that they tested in Westfield 
residents, how those compare to the general population, what is 
the median level, what is the 95th percentile, those summary 
statistics have been made available. I am not familiar with the 
specifics of the extent of data released.
    Senator Markey. Yes.
    Ms. Schaider. But I in general think that having more 
information about exposures among the general population and 
exposed communities is helpful.
    Senator Markey. Yes, we would want to ensure that there is 
total access to the information about the safety of 
breastfeeding for PFAS-exposed mothers, especially considering 
the potential health risks to children. So it would be, I 
think, a very important thing that we could do.
    The EPA's updated draft PFAS disposal guidance document 
acknowledges that performance and testing data are needed to 
validate PFAS, destruction by incineration as opposed to other 
novel ways of getting rid of PFAS in our environment.
    Dr. Fenton, do you believe that attempting standard 
incineration of PFAS can lead to more dangerous PFAS compounds 
released into our environment?
    Ms. Fenton. Thank you for the question, Senator. We 
certainly know that incineration can lead to release into the 
environment. What I suggested earlier in my comments was that 
funding innovative ways to mineralize these compounds, or re-
use what is being released from the incineration might be 
useful down the road. I do think there is a place that we can 
fund innovation yet, and work toward a place where we are not 
releasing fluorine carbon compounds into the environment.
    Senator Markey. With your indulgence, Mr. Chairman?
    Senator Merkley. Go ahead.
    Senator Markey. Dr. Fenton, do you believe that the failure 
of PFAS manufacturers to provide reference standards to the EPA 
has hindered the agency's ability to establish accurate 
drinking water standards for PFAS? Has this lack of cooperation 
hurt communities across the United States?
    Ms. Fenton. Sir, it has affected how quickly and how 
efficiently we can provide strong data, high quality data, on 
health effects. It has affected me personally; it has affected 
my colleagues. The confidential business information in some of 
the PFAS mixtures has really hindered our progress in 
understanding the health effects.
    That is probably the No. 1 issue that I have had to deal 
with, is the inability to get standards for some of the new 
compounds that we would like to study in North Carolina, in 
particular.
    Senator Markey. Thank you. It is absolutely critical.
    I had my first date with my wife 40 years ago, in two more 
months, Mr. Chairman. And she was explaining to me, her mother 
had died from breast cancer. And she was explaining to me that 
her interest in medicine was driven by that, and having to go 
to the Stanford Hospital day after day, it was a girl with her 
mother for the treatment.
    But what she explained to me was this, that Japanese women 
contract breast cancer at only one-third the rate of American 
women. But Japanese women contract breast cancer at the same 
rate as American women in the first generation that they live 
in America. Meaning that we are doing something to ourselves 
with our environment, what we put into our food, what we put 
into our water, what we put into the air. We do it to 
ourselves. And it causes a much higher level of cancers in our 
society.
    So we just can't deny these statistical realities when we 
compare ourselves to the rest of the world. While manufacturers 
might want to just continue business as usual, the impact has 
been felt by the families, the women, the children, in our 
society, the firefighters who get exposed and ultimately 
succumb to the diseases.
    I thank you so much for this very important hearing.
    Senator Merkley. Thank you very much, Senator.
    I notice that when we have a conversation about, and 
testimony about, well, PFAS in our food and water is causing 
bad health effects, often the response is, oh, but wait, it is 
on other things in our environment like insulated wire in an 
airplane or coating a solar panel, to try to distract us, 
essentially, from the fundamental question of the pathways in 
which we are affected, and how it can be removed in those 
pathways that are affecting human health.
    So this is not a conversation about banning a class of 
chemicals. It is a conversation about finding the ways that we 
are affected and eliminating those effects to improve human 
health.
    I think it is a very good point you made, however, Dr. 
Fenton, that the waste that happens from other portions of the 
industry may well find its way back into our bodies, even if 
the initial product is not one where we are touching or around. 
One of those products is stain-resistant carpet. I remember 
when the ads came out about, oh, you can drop all kinds of 
things on the carpet and it just beads up, and so forth. Is 
that a PFAS treatment? I am thinking about our little babies 
crawling around on the carpet. Is that a risk to our babies' 
health?
    Ms. Schaider. I would say absolutely yes. We do know that 
stain-resistant carpets treated with Scotch Guard or 
Stainmaster contain PFAS. And there is ample evidence that the 
chemicals don't stay in the product. There have been studies 
that have made links between people who have stain-resistant 
carpets in their house and levels of PFAS in their blood.
    Also I have concerns about children who are more 
vulnerable, spend more time close to the ground, spend more 
time with their hands in their mouth. We know that PFAS can get 
through our skin, but also can be transferred by hand to mouth 
contact in children who are more vulnerable to those harmful 
health effects.
    So we know that having these products in our home increases 
our exposure. And I think one point that is important to keep 
in mind, and Senator Mullin had asked about all these different 
ways that we can be exposed, all those cumulative exposures add 
up. We can be exposed from food and water and consumer 
products.
    Some pathways of exposure are easier to turn off now, and I 
think we should grab that low-hanging fruit and reduce 
exposures where we can. Other pathways may be more challenging. 
But we should work, in general, to reduce our exposures to PFAS 
and reduce our reliance on these problematic chemicals.
    Senator Merkley. I have kind of been assuming that areas 
where you have higher abrasion may produce more particles that 
find their way into our bodies. Maybe that is wrong. But for 
example, I think about carpets, we are walking on them, there 
is abrasion, there is carpet dust. That carpet dust, those 
fibers that have PFAS on them because they are stain resistant 
or spill resistant now are easily breathed in and therefore 
have a pathway to get into our bodies.
    I have thought about the Teflon pans, and I have seen many 
Teflon pans where the coating has essentially been worn off 
from stirring things in the pan. And of course, you noted that 
heat can be a factor as well.
    It seems a lot more of a risk than, say, a coating on my 
phone, where one, I can put a plastic cover over that coating, 
so I am not touching it. But even if I am, there is not the 
abrasion involved and I am guessing that the transfer of PFAS 
through my thumb might be far lower.
    So our goal here is to figure out and understand better 
where the highest levels of transfer, as you call it, low-
hanging fruit, that can have am impact. But my assumption about 
abrasion, is that a reasonable way to think about some of this?
    Ms. Schaider. I think that is one. One way to think about, 
I think a lot about how we actually get exposed to the PFAS and 
how do the chemicals and the products get into our bodies. So 
certainly, abrasion of products and fibers ending up in dust, 
we don't think about dust as a harmful chemical exposure 
pathway. But the dust in our homes is one way that we can be 
exposed to toxic chemicals. It is sort of a repository for 
toxic chemicals in homes.
    Also, there are certain PFAS chemicals that are volatile. 
So some of the PFAS that we are talking about in water are 
polar, they tend to stay in water. But other PFAS chemicals, 
like fluorotelomer alcohols are volatile, so they can actually 
come off of products and end up in the air in our homes. Then 
we breathe them in.
    Fluorotelomer alcohols are an example of a precursor. So we 
think of PFAS, PFOA, those chemical structures basically don't 
change unless you heat them at very high temperatures. Other 
chemicals like these fluorotelomer alcohols are what we call 
precursors. So in our bodies, over time and in the environment, 
they can be transformed into PFAS or PFOA or these other very 
stable PFAS.
    So that is another way we can be exposed, is through these 
volatile PFAS, that we do measure in indoor air and we do see 
that homes with PFAS-containing products have higher levels in 
air and dust.
    Senator Merkley. So the question we might be asking when we 
hear that there is PFAS on our cell phone is, is that a 
volatile version. I will ask that for the record. I will have 
my team followup.
    I want to note that you all mentioned cosmetics. Why would 
cosmetics contain PFAS? And cosmetics certainly produce dust, 
if you will, that we breathe in. Is there any rational reason 
to have PFAS in cosmetics?
    Ms. Fenton. They do it for waterproofing. It is like 
waterproof mascara and waterproof foundation that you would put 
on your face. It is meant to last all day.
    Senator Merkley. Is that absorbed through the skin? Because 
now you are applying something directly to a significant area 
of skin. Is that a much higher risk than some other sources?
    Ms. Fenton. Like all sources, it is how often you are 
exposed to it. So if you are wearing it every day as an 
individual, yes, you probably would have substantial exposure 
from that. But you can make personal choices, like you can make 
a personal choice not to have Scotch Guarded upholstery or 
mattresses or carpeting or cosmetics.
    Senator Merkley. But the thing is, Dr. Fenton, that 
citizens assume when they don't see a warning on it, it doesn't 
say, this carpet has Scotch Guard that will reduce your stains 
but also beware that your children may breathe in a whole lot 
of PFAS that may have health impacts. They don't put warnings 
on them. This is where we are relying upon every citizen to be 
educated, like each of you have doctorates, and make individual 
choices. That is why we have public policy, and that is why we 
are struggling with this.
    Of course, I have never used stain-resistant mascara--what 
did you call it?
    Ms. Fenton. Waterproof mascara.
    [Laughter.]
    Senator Merkley. I have never used mascara. I had no idea 
there was PFAS in it. But I am sure I can see a reason for 
that. Do we have studies that show cosmetics as you are 
describing, incorporating these water-resistant qualities, 
result in PFAS in the blood? Is it a pathway of concern?
    Ms. Schaider. I am not aware of specific studies that have 
looked at that question. But I think we know enough about how 
these chemicals can come out of products. As Dr. Fenton 
mentioned, they can be absorbed through our skin.
    I don't know that we need to do a study for every single 
product to show what percent of that PFAS ends up in our blood. 
I would take more of a precautionary approach, because we know 
that if chemicals are in products, at least some portion of 
that will end up in our bloodstream. And if we are talking 
about waterproof mascara, that is really not an essential use. 
I think that is an easy one to point out.
    We often say that you shouldn't need a chemistry degree to 
go shopping for products for your family. I think it is unfair 
to expect that consumers will know all the different types of 
harmful chemicals that they should avoid. As the mother of a 
`tween daughter who is getting into makeup, it is impossible to 
think that every person needs to know about these toxic 
chemicals. I think people rightfully expect that the government 
is protecting their health.
    Senator Merkley. That not always is the case.
    So my last question is really about the April EPA drinking 
water regulations for six PFAS chemicals. I think these are the 
regulations that were being referred to before. The level that 
they set is very, very low, like parts per trillion. I am used 
to parts per million or billion, but I have never seen a parts 
per trillion before.
    But now imagine that you are providing the water to a 
municipality. And you test and you go, oh, gosh, we have our 
water, the groundwater is contaminated with PFAS, we are 
pulling it out of the ground or whatever. Is it possible to 
really, is there any real cost-effective way to pull this PFAS, 
the parts per trillion, out of our drinking water?
    Ms. Fenton. Yes.
    Senator Merkley. OK, tell us about that.
    Ms. Fenton. Granular activated charcoal systems, large 
volume systems, have been implemented in multiple cities across 
the United States already. Because as you know, 11 States 
already had PFAS regulations on the books, only 11. So this 
Federal law now protects all States at a level that is safe.
    So 11 States have already figured out how to do this, and 
they are doing it. Some of them are doing it without increasing 
the water bill to their constituents.
    Senator Merkley. So we have a cost-effective way to get 
this out of our water.
    Ms. Fenton. Yes.
    Senator Merkley. Since water, you have all mentioned, is a 
major pathway, that is a real positive to accomplish that.
    Ms. Fenton. Right.
    Ms. Schaider. It is cost-effective, but there are economies 
of scale. So that works really well when you are a large water 
system, the cost per person decreases. But for small water 
systems with a small customer base, these systems are hugely 
expensive.
    For instance, on Hyannis, on Cape Cod in Massachusetts, 
where we have been studying PFAS for a number of years, there 
are only 14,000 customers. All of their public wells were 
contaminated by PFAS and they have had to spend tens of 
millions of dollars to install granular activated carbon to 
remove the PFAS. I don't think it is fair for the ratepayers to 
foot that bill. I would like to see more pathways for the 
chemical industries who created the chemicals and profited from 
them to be responsible for the cleanup.
    Senator Merkley. Polluter pays, is your principle.
    Ms. Schaider. Yes.
    Senator Merkley. Well, this is a really interesting and 
important conversation that we are having. Obviously, it is a 
very complicated one. So I really appreciate your bringing your 
expertise to bear, and hopefully it will cause others who are 
listening go, oh, we need to explore this further and think 
about how do we capture that low-hanging fruit.
    Should we be labeling things that warn individuals about 
the effects? Should we simply be, in certain products, and 
maybe it is the stain-resistant carpet saying no, that the 
health risk far outweighs any value, or so forth?
    There is a lot to followup on. I really appreciate your 
contributions and expertise.
    Ms. Fenton. Senator, could I suggest for the record that 
what you brought up about the policies on the labeling would be 
enormously useful to all Americans. If we knew which consumer 
products had PFAS in them, we could make better choices. We 
could change things. We could have some say by ourselves in our 
exposures.
    Senator Merkley. Let's followup on that question. Because 
one of the things that is in my head is I heard about lots of 
things that have PFAS I had no idea about, whether it is 
medical equipment or a screen of a cell phone. But there may be 
categories where that labeling is more important because the 
pathways of contamination are more significant. Maybe it is 
cosmetics, maybe it is carpet, I don't know.
    We will look to your expertise to help guide us. My team 
will keep wrestling with it. So thank you for that point.
    In closing, thank you again. We have heard that the 
scientific community is deeply concerned about the public's 
exposure to toxic PFAS chemicals. We have heard about the 
impact, both observed from human studies and from studies on 
mice, that the health effects are very significant, and 
therefore a topic we should continue to explore how to reduce 
this risk dramatically for our citizens.
    I ask unanimous consent from all my colleagues who are 
still at the table here to approve submissions for the record 
that they might like to make, including any letters they would 
like to submit or articles or other material.
    [The referenced information follows:]
    
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Senator Merkley. And if any of them wish to submit written 
questions for the record, that is allowed through the close of 
business on December 19th of this year. We will compile those 
questions; we will send them out to you all. And your replies, 
if you can get them back to us by January 9th, it would be very 
helpful, so it can be timely and close out the record.
    So without hearing any objection to that, that is the plan. 
This hearing is adjourned.
    [Whereupon, at 11:05 a.m., the hearing was adjourned.]
  

                                  [all]