[Senate Hearing 118-772]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]



                                                        S. Hrg. 118-772

                   THE PRESIDENT'S FISCAL YEAR 2025 
                 SOCIAL SECURITY ADMINISTRATION BUDGET

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                                HEARING

                               before the

                          COMMITTEE ON FINANCE
                          UNITED STATES SENATE

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                             SECOND SESSION

                               __________

                             MARCH 20, 2024

                               __________

                                     
                                     
                                     
                                     
                                     
                                     
               [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
               
               
               
               
               
               
             
            Printed for the use of the Committee on Finance
          
                               ______
                                 

                 U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE

62-929--PDF               WASHINGTON : 2026
            
            
 
 
 



                          COMMITTEE ON FINANCE

                      RON WYDEN, Oregon, Chairman

DEBBIE STABENOW, Michigan            MIKE CRAPO, Idaho
MARIA CANTWELL, Washington           CHUCK GRASSLEY, Iowa
ROBERT MENENDEZ, New Jersey          JOHN CORNYN, Texas
THOMAS R. CARPER, Delaware           JOHN THUNE, South Dakota
BENJAMIN L. CARDIN, Maryland         TIM SCOTT, South Carolina
SHERROD BROWN, Ohio                  BILL CASSIDY, Louisiana
MICHAEL F. BENNET, Colorado          JAMES LANKFORD, Oklahoma
ROBERT P. CASEY, Jr., Pennsylvania   STEVE DAINES, Montana
MARK R. WARNER, Virginia             TODD YOUNG, Indiana
SHELDON WHITEHOUSE, Rhode Island     JOHN BARRASSO, Wyoming
MAGGIE HASSAN, New Hampshire         RON JOHNSON, Wisconsin
CATHERINE CORTEZ MASTO, Nevada       THOM TILLIS, North Carolina
ELIZABETH WARREN, Massachusetts      MARSHA BLACKBURN, Tennessee

                    Joshua Sheinkman, Staff Director

                Gregg Richard, Republican Staff Director

                                  (II)










                            C O N T E N T S

                              ----------                              

                           OPENING STATEMENTS

                                                                   Page
Wyden, Hon. Ron, a U.S. Senator from Oregon, chairman, Committee 
  on Finance.....................................................     1
Crapo, Hon. Mike, a U.S. Senator from Idaho......................     3

                         ADMINISTRATION WITNESS

O'Malley, Hon. Martin, Commissioner, Social Security 
  Administration, Baltimore, MD..................................     5

               ALPHABETICAL LISTING AND APPENDIX MATERIAL

Crapo, Hon. Mike:
    Opening statement............................................     3
    Prepared statement...........................................    39
O'Malley, Hon. Martin:
    Testimony....................................................     5
    Prepared statement...........................................    40
    Responses to questions from committee members................    49
Wyden, Hon. Ron:
    Opening statement............................................     1
    Prepared statement...........................................    72

                             Communications

AARP.............................................................    75
American Federation of Government Employees, AFL-CIO.............    77
Center on Capital & Social Equity................................    78
Center for Fiscal Equity.........................................    87
Hatcher, Daniel L................................................    92
National Committee to Preserve Social Security and Medicare......    99
Social Security Administration Inspector General Gail S. Ennis...   101

                                 (III)









 
                   THE PRESIDENT'S FISCAL YEAR 2025 
                 SOCIAL SECURITY ADMINISTRATION BUDGET

                              ----------                              


                       WEDNESDAY, MARCH 20, 2024

                                       U.S. Senate,
                                      Committee on Finance,
                                                    Washington, DC.
    The hearing was convened, pursuant to notice, at 2:35 p.m., 
in Room SD-215, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Ron Wyden 
(chairman of the committee) presiding.
    Present: Senators Menendez, Carper, Cardin, Brown, Bennet, 
Casey, Whitehouse, Hassan, Cortez Masto, Warren, Crapo, 
Grassley, Cassidy, Lankford, Daines, Tillis, and Blackburn.
    Also present: Democratic staff: Sam Conchuratt, 
Professional Staff Member; Joshua Sheinkman, Staff Director; 
and Tiffany Smith, Deputy Staff Director and Chief Counsel. 
Republican staff: Becky Cole, Chief Economist; Gregg Richard, 
Staff Director; and Lara Rosner, Social Security Policy 
Advisor.

   OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. RON WYDEN, A U.S. SENATOR FROM 
             OREGON, CHAIRMAN, COMMITTEE ON FINANCE

    The Chairman. The Finance Committee will come to order. 
Today the Finance Committee meets to discuss the Biden 
administration's commitment to protecting and strengthening 
Social Security. Commissioner O'Malley, thank you for joining 
us.
    Commissioner, I think it would be appropriate to begin to 
say, you know, you've barely got there, and you are still 
finding your way around the offices, and you have taken more 
concrete action to help seniors and improve operations in your 
early administration than the vast majority of your 
predecessors.
    At your confirmation hearing, we pressed you on the urgent 
need to address this scourge of overpayments. They have been 
forcing already struggling seniors and folks of modest income 
to pay back thousands, sometimes even tens of thousands of 
dollars, because of a mistake that was no fault of their own. 
No American who lives on a fixed income, struggling to balance 
the grocery bill against rent and utilities, can afford to pay 
a large bill back to the government. Now, it's appropriate just 
to have a little history of this as we get into talking about 
this with you.
    A few years ago, I wrote a law requiring the Social 
Security Administration to modernize its systems with one kind 
of lodestar, and that was to prevent overpayments. For years, 
Social Security dragged its feet on implementing these changes 
that I mandated by law. Many of the recent problems with 
overpayments that we have all been hearing about in our States 
could have been prevented if the agency had implemented these 
changes sooner.
    Now, several weeks after you were confirmed, you said what 
you were going to be about was bringing Social Security into 
the 21st century, and you said you were going to get these new 
systems up and running this year. And, colleagues, what this 
does is, it significantly streamlines the Social Security 
program for all those folks, all those seniors that we 
represent, because the changes allow the agency, for example, 
to get wage data quickly and efficiently and accurately, and 
that is, front and center, a requirement to prevent 
overpayments. You promised swift action, and you are already 
starting to show real progress, not only on big pressing 
problems like overpayments, but you have not shied away from 
diving right into some of the smaller fixes that Social 
Security needs to have.
    Listening to employees and seniors, you're making concrete 
changes that in my view--and, Mr. Commissioner, as you know, I 
go back with seniors to my days when I was director of the Gray 
Panthers and I had a full head of hair and rugged good looks 
and all that. And you are making changes that are going to make 
it easier for seniors to sign up for Medicare and improve 
customer service.
    And you have said that if there is a problem, no matter 
what size it is, you are going to go out there and focus on 
fixing and improving service, getting checks out the door 
faster to the older people who need them.
    In my view, when it comes to these challenges, there is a 
clear choice to make, and you and I have talked about that. We 
either let a broken system just continue to upend the lives of 
older people, or you can tackle the problems head-on. As far as 
I can tell, you are taking the head-on option, going after 
these things aggressively from the start.
    Now let's talk for a moment about the President's budget. 
He released his budget and reaffirmed his commitment to 
protecting seniors and Social Security, and that he would 
oppose any cuts to Americans' hard-earned benefits. Now, that 
is quite a difference to what the Republican front-runner for 
the presidential nomination has said.
    On the same day, on national television, the Republican 
front-runner said there was a lot that could be done on 
Americans' hard-earned Social Security and Medicare benefits 
``in terms of cutting.'' So that, I gather, is his platform, 
because that is what he said: cut the programs; let everybody 
else pick up the pieces. Obviously, Social Security is on top 
of everybody's mind, with respect to protecting the program, 
and particularly making sure that it is solvent.
    I intend to work closely with my colleagues to ensure that 
we protect Americans' hard-earned benefits for decades to come. 
A piece of that, Mr. Commissioner, will be making sure 
billionaires and the ultrawealthy start paying their fair 
share.
    As we start this discussion, let's be clear on this. I want 
everybody to know I am a capitalist. I want people to be 
successful. That is the American dream. We want people to do 
well; we want people to be successful.
    We also believe that it is important that everyone, 
including billionaires, pay their fair share. My billionaires 
tax proposal has close to 20 Senators as cosponsors now, and it 
is going to start that effort to make sure the ultrawealthy pay 
the taxes they owe, and help close the gap to ensure seniors 
can depend on the lifeline of Social Security.
    One last point--just a quick step down memory lane, 
colleagues. The Finance Committee has not held a hearing 
specifically on oversight of the Social Security budget in over 
a decade. We said when you were nominated, Mr. Commissioner, we 
were going to change that. You are giving us the opportunity to 
do it today.
    We can get an update on the Biden administration's efforts 
to address ongoing challenges within Social Security, and we 
can also hear from you about the changes that you are focused 
on making in the program in the days ahead that make for a more 
solvent program and protect what we consider to be the Social 
Security guarantee.
    President Biden's proposed budget for the coming year shows 
his commitment to the Social Security guarantee, to protecting 
seniors' hard-earned benefits and making sure the program has 
the resources it needs to improve customer service and better 
serve the American people.
    Thanks for helping to get things back on track.
    Senator Crapo?
    [The prepared statement of Chairman Wyden appears in the 
appendix.]

             OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. MIKE CRAPO, 
                   A U.S. SENATOR FROM IDAHO

    Senator Crapo. Thank you, Senator Wyden, and thank you, 
Commissioner O'Malley, for appearing before the committee this 
afternoon to discuss the President's Fiscal Year 2025 budget 
for the Social Security Administration. I too appreciate your 
efforts, the commitment that you made to us, and the efforts 
you are undertaking to strengthen and restore our Social 
Security Administration.
    Commissioner O'Malley, during your nomination hearing, you 
committed to making customer service improvements at the SSA a 
top priority. During today's hearing, I look forward to hearing 
more about that: your approach to addressing SSA's ongoing 
challenges with wait times for the national 800 number, 
processing times for disability decisions and improper 
payments, the data and metrics you are looking at to evaluate 
your progress, and how the Biden administration's budget 
request for the SSA supports these efforts.
    Average wait times for the national 800 number have ticked 
down slightly over the last few months, but still remain about 
30 minutes. After years of delays, the Social Security 
Administration has successfully transitioned its national 800 
number to a new phone service platform. While the budget 
highlights the expected benefits of this new phone system, the 
Social Security Administration must do more to ensure that 
future information-technology projects make responsible use of 
taxpayer dollars by being delivered on time and on budget.
    Americans across the country continue to wait far too long 
to receive a disability decision from the SSA. The President's 
budget proposes addressing these wait times through hiring and 
retaining State Disability Determination Services employees, 
and seeking process efficiencies, including improved 
technology.
    The budget also highlights a proposed rule the agency 
claims would improve its disability adjudication process by 
reducing the number of years of past relevant work SSA 
considers when making disability decisions. While SSA's 
disability rules do need revisiting, simplification should not 
always result in more mandatory spending.
    SSA should also focus on updating the outdated occupations 
list used in making disability decisions, to ensure the correct 
applicants are receiving benefits. The Social Security 
Administration has already spent a substantial amount of time 
and resources on this update, and I urge you to stick to your 
commitment of making this update a high priority.
    During your nomination hearing, Senators on both sides of 
the aisle underscored the need for SSA to do more to reduce 
improper payments. Last month, the Social Security 
Administration took an important step toward implementing the 
Payroll Information Exchange provision in the Bipartisan Budget 
Act of 2015. Once this new exchange is in place, it is expected 
to improve payment accuracy and reduce the self-reporting 
burden on beneficiaries.
    I also understand that the Social Security Administration 
has been reviewing its policies and procedures to identify what 
more can be done to help prevent and address overpayments. I 
look forward to hearing more about these efforts today. As SSA 
continues this work, the agency must be careful to address the 
initial errors, not just waive the mistakes after they have 
occurred.
    While the President's budget includes operational requests 
for Congress to consider, it also fails in addressing Social 
Security's long-term solvency. The Social Security program 
provides benefits to millions of seniors, individuals with 
disabilities, and their families. We must ensure current 
beneficiaries and future generations will be able to depend on 
the program by addressing its financing shortfalls.
    The President's budget does not include any legislative 
proposals to back up his stated commitment to protect and 
strengthen Social Security. The solutions preserving it are 
increasingly difficult, as more time is wasted.
    Thank you again for being here today, Commissioner 
O'Malley, and thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    [The prepared statement of Senator Crapo appears in the 
appendix.]
    The Chairman. Thank you, Senator Crapo. We now turn to you, 
Commissioner, for your opening statement. I understand that you 
are going to use some slides for members to follow along with 
your testimony. Your testimony will be made part of the record, 
as well as the slides you provided the members.
    [The slides appear in the appendix beginning on p. 47.]

    STATEMENT OF HON. MARTIN O'MALLEY, COMMISSIONER, SOCIAL 
             SECURITY ADMINISTRATION, BALTIMORE, MD

    Commissioner O'Malley. Awesome. Mr. Chairman, Ranking 
Member Crapo, and members of the committee, thank you for the 
honor to be able to appear before you today, and, Mr. Chairman, 
thank you for holding this hearing on our budget.
    It has been 9 years since we have had any hearing on Social 
Security's budget, and it is a great honor to be here with you 
to share with you a little bit about what I have learned. I 
have been on this job for 90 days, and I have been most 
pleasantly surprised by just how anxious the senior executive 
service was for a confirmed leader.
    They want to do better. People across the country--I have 
visited all 9 regions over 16 days in January. The employees 
want to do better. They consider themselves to be performing a 
sacred mission for all of us, and indeed they do.
    So, I have learned a lot, and we have a lot in motion, 
including the Payroll Information Exchange, which will be 
advertised very shortly. We hope to have that up and going by 
July. The 15- to 5-year lookback will hopefully simplify a lot 
of the administrative and wait times involved in the disability 
program.
    But I wanted to share with you right up front--and it is 
one of the lead slides I shared with you in the material I gave 
out to you--one of the things I have learned--and I see the 
symptoms of it and the effects of it every single day--is that 
Social Security is now serving more customers than ever before 
with fewer staff than Social Security has had in 27 years.
    You might be surprised to learn--or perhaps not; I know I 
was--that Social Security operates today, now, on less than 1 
percent of overhead compared to its annual benefit outlays. And 
this operating overhead has been cut effectively by 20 percent 
over these last 9 years.
    If one were to compare this social insurance agency to the 
private-sector companies that are also on those slides like 
Allstate, which I believe operates on about--let me make sure I 
get it right. Allstate operates on approximately now 13 percent 
of its overhead compared to annual outlays. Liberty Mutual, 
Liberty Biberty, operates on about 22 percent. The Social 
Security Administration, at least up until 2018, operated on 
1.2 percent.
    So, as I have traveled around the country, I wanted to 
share with you--mindful of my time here and how I am wanting to 
answer your questions, I wanted to announce to you a few of the 
things that we are doing on those key customer service issues, 
namely the 800 number wait times; time for disabilities; and 
third, the injustice of the overpayments.
    We have a new team in place, and within 30 days we launched 
SecurityStat. SecurityStat is our new performance management 
regimen that operates on an every 2 weeks, every 2 weeks 
cadence--eight different meetings focused on one topic. Not 
only the 800 number, not only the disability determinations, 
but also 1 blessed hour on fraud, the prevention of fraud--and 
the OIG is at the table as we strive to get inside the turning 
radius of the fraudsters.
    We have 1 blessed hour that is committed to reducing those 
initial disability determinations as well. We have one entirely 
focused on notices. We send out notices that look like the old 
Mad Libs, except these are designed by mad lawyers over time. 
We cannot blame our seniors when they receive the notice, or 
anybody, when they cannot make sense of it.
    The only thing you can make sense of on some of our notices 
is that if you do not understand it, you should call our 800 
number and wait for 39 minutes. So these are all of the things 
that we focus on in SecurityStat.
    Let me wrap up with the focus of one of these meetings, 
which is overpayments and underpayments. Many of us saw that 60 
Minutes expose about Americans who, through no fault of their 
own, received one of these indecipherable notices, did not 
respond, but then found Social Security was intercepting 100 
percent of their benefits every month until we recouped the 
overpayment.
    These stories are shocking to our shared sense of equity 
and good conscience, and so today I am announcing some new 
reforms on that score. Many of these reforms came from our own 
employees on the front lines, and a brilliant woman named 
LeeAnn Stuever, who has helped us unpack and get to the root 
causes and the true facts underlying this.
    First, instead of intercepting 100 percent of benefits in 
those instances where beneficiaries fail to call us to work out 
an overpayment plan, instead of intercepting 100 percent, we 
are going to do as we have long done in title 16 SSI, and 
intercept only 10 percent.
    Second, we are going to shift the burden away from 
insisting that the claimant prove that they were not at fault. 
Instead, that burden will be more rightly on the agency in 
determining fault.
    Third, we will allow repayment plans of up to 60 months. 
Traditionally, we only allowed repayments of up to 36. At the 
VA, they do 60. We are now going to do 60 as well.
    And finally, we are going to make it easier for overpaid 
beneficiaries to request a waiver of payment.
    In conclusion, we have discovered many things to improve 
process, many things to improve technology here and there. But 
continuing to reduce staffing while increasing beneficiaries is 
only going to lead to more difficulty for all of our customers.
    I have every confidence that restoring customer service 
levels at Social Security here and now will provide a dividend 
of trust for generations to come. The President's budget is a 
big step in the right direction on that score. It includes a 9-
percent increase over last year to $15.4 billion, and with 
those dollars, we are confident we are going to be able to 
reduce the wait time on the 800 number. We are going to reduce 
the time to disability determinations, and we are going to do a 
much better job on reducing the numbers of overpayments and the 
injustices that result from them.
    So, I look forward to working with you and diving deeper 
into any areas that are of interest to you. Thank you.
    [The prepared statement of Commissioner O'Malley appears in 
the appendix.]
    The Chairman. Commissioner, thank you very much.
    And let's go to this Payroll Information Exchange concept 
first, because it relates to kind of how you showed up here. 
You made some big promises to tackle overpayments head-on, and 
I am sure seniors and others kind of hear this stuff coming 
from Washington, and they maybe roll their eyes a little bit 
and they say, ``We'll see.''
    But we are now on our way to having quicker, more efficient 
policies to prevent overpayments, because the agency can get 
wage data, can get this from employers and others quickly. It 
just seems to me that after years and years of waiting--and as 
you and I talked about, I worked across the aisle to get this 
passed, and then basically nothing happened; nothing. We just 
kind of kept pushing the agency, and nobody got serious about 
getting this wage data and recognizing the importance of 
efficiency and the like, and you took this on.
    So tell us, if you would--because you are going to have to 
have a comprehensive game plan fighting these overpayments--
what are we going to do for the long term, what are we going to 
do right now? And I will ask another question about helping 
people who are in a bind right now.
    But tell us how this Payroll Information Exchange, the data 
exchange, is going to help you prevent overpayments for the 
long term, and can we finally get this problem that has harmed 
so many seniors under control?
    Commissioner O'Malley. Mr. Chairman, thank you for your 
question. Thank you for your interest, and thank you for 
pushing us on the payroll information data exchange. As I 
traveled around the country, visiting all nine regions in the 
first week of January, I always found the best ideas came from 
people who were on the front lines already doing the work.
    One of the constant questions that I received in employee 
town hall fashion was, ``When are we finally going to have PIE? 
When are you all going to do regulations to finally do the 
Payroll Information Exchange, because it will alleviate our 
work burdens; it will make for less overpayments.''
    In some of our programs--I am thinking of SSI especially--
it is an income-based program. People have to verify that they 
are making below a certain amount, and if they have a job, they 
have to be careful not to go above a certain amount of 
earnings, otherwise, it triggers potentially an overpayment, 
adjustments, and things of the like.
    And with ever-declining staff over the years, it has taken 
us longer to catch up with overpayments, or changes in income, 
or living arrangements, or the other things that have to go 
into that program. So we have been doing a lot of prep work 
that will allow us to use a big data solution, to use a 
contract with a company called Equifax. And even as old as our 
legacy systems are, we have done the work necessary to 
integrate our efforts across all the field offices and 
processing centers, with Equifax's data base.
    So, if a claimant or customer signs up and gives us 
permission to verify their wages through Equifax, we will not 
be waiting for somebody to come in with their latest pay stub. 
We will not be waiting for somebody in a processing center to 
put it through a scanner, to have it connect up with the file. 
Instead, it will happen instantaneously. We hope, therefore, we 
will be able to, in real time, identify where a situation that 
could have led to an overpayment is popping up, and we think it 
will be a great relief on both the administrative burden 
internally and the administrative burden on customers, and lead 
to greater accuracy.
    The Chairman. Let me see if I can get two more questions in 
quickly. By the way, Mr. Commissioner, I thought you would be 
interested. The original idea for the Payroll Information 
Exchange came from one of your employees, a Social Security 
employee. He took it to our office in Eugene, OR. So, this idea 
we are very proud of has roots in our State.
    Commissioner O'Malley. I do not doubt it.
    The Chairman. So there you are: Payroll Information 
Exchange for the long term. What is the most important thing 
you can do to help somebody who is clobbered right now by an 
overpayment?
    Commissioner O'Malley. Well, some of those things we just 
announced--and there are more things that will be coming. 
Seventy-five percent of overpayments are under $5,000 or less. 
Ninety-two percent of people actually call us and work out a 
payment plan.
    I have sat there with people at Social Security, listening 
on the other phone, as clients ask, ``Hey, I cannot make the 
$200 every month. Can you allow me to do $100?'' So, we have 
good people at Social Security, good people in the field 
offices, and my message to people across the country if they 
have had an overpayment is, call us, contact us.
    I know it is hard with fewer staff, but we do answer the 
phones within 5 minutes in the 1,210 field offices across the 
country, and they are compassionate people on the other end, 
who we now know are receiving clear instructions that we need 
to act and be mindful of the damage this can do to individuals.
    We have a lot of flexibility as an agency that you have 
given us, not to claw back in cruel ways, if that is against 
equity and good conscience or defeats the purpose of the very 
act that you are sworn to uphold.
    The Chairman. Let me get one other question in very 
quickly, because I am already over my time. Tell us a little 
bit about the funding picture, because I know that you are 
looking at ways to beef up the very best possible customer 
service for seniors and others. What are you going to try to 
put your resources in, and where are you going to need some 
additional help?
    Commissioner O'Malley. Yes, sir. Having been Mayor of 
Baltimore and having been a Governor during a recession, I 
honestly was taking with a grain of salt some of the news I was 
reading about the agency saying that it was suffering from a 
lack of funding and a lack of staffing.
    But when I got in there, that has been the most unpleasant 
surprise of all, to see the staffing going down now to 27-year 
lows, while the number of customers continues to rise. When I 
was here before you in October, we were serving 68 million 
customers; we are now serving 71 million customers. And so, if 
you are able to pass the President's budget, these are the 
things that we would do with those dollars.
    We would invest in front-line staff, $269 million of that. 
We would invest in staffing back up our teleservice centers, 
which suffer from a 24-percent attrition rate. We would address 
a backlog in the processing centers; that is where $85 million 
would go. We would eliminate the hearings backlog with an $89-
million increase.
    An area where we are especially suffering, and probably the 
largest dollar amount on here honestly, is the initial 
disability claims backlog. It is reaching historic highs, 
people waiting for their initial disability, and that, as you 
know, is a 50-State problem.
    In some of your States, you have attrition rates that are 
so bad that, in some States, 85 percent of the people who work 
in disability examinations are trainees. So our productivity 
has taken a hit. Our staffing is low there, and we need to beef 
up our DDSs.
    And finally, information technology. It is people, it is 
process, but it is also technology, and 90 percent of our 
technology budget goes to taping together green screens and IBM 
systems from 40 years back. We need to modernize with our 
technology investments.
    The Chairman. Thank you.
    Senator Crapo?
    Senator Crapo. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and I 
want to follow up basically a little bit on the line of what 
you were just discussing. I was very interested in your chart 
that shows, for example, the wait time on the 1-800 number and 
what it could be. It could go from 38 minutes to 5 minutes. 
Same thing on disability decisions and hearing decisions.
    The question I have is what--this chart says that with 1.2 
percent of benefit outlays as a level of funding, that you 
could take the wait times on the 800 number from 38 minutes to 
5 minutes. Is that just hiring a lot more employees? What are 
the actions that you would take with adequate funding to remove 
that, to move that number from 38 minutes to 5 minutes?
    Commissioner O'Malley. A big, big part of it actually is 
the agents taking the calls. There are things we can do with 
tactics on either side, deflecting calls, getting more people 
to go online, and there are things we can do once we do answer 
the call--resolution on the first call rather than making 
people call back.
    But there is no substitute for all of us Americans who call 
and say, ``I want to talk to an agent; I want to talk to an 
agent.'' If there are not enough agents, it is going to be a 
long wait time.
    Senator Crapo. So what is 1.2 percent of funding outlays? 
What amount of dollars is that?
    Commissioner O'Malley. The President's budget calls for 
$15.4 billion. That is about .96 of 1 percent.
    Senator Crapo. Okay. So yours is a little--your recommended 
budget is a little higher than that?
    Commissioner O'Malley. The official recommended budget was 
higher than that, and here it is. It was $16.2 billion. The 1.2 
percent that I had on that graph was to show that prior to 
2018, that was the pretty consistent level of overhead compared 
to annual benefit outlays that allowed us to support customer 
service at the level that Americans frankly have already paid 
for through years of working and their FICA.
    Senator Crapo. So again, just so I can understand what it 
is that would be needed here, would your $16.2 billion budget 
get you to 1.2 percent of funding of benefit outlays?
    Commissioner O'Malley. No, sir, not yet.
    Senator Crapo. Would it get even close?
    Commissioner O'Malley. The President's budget would be a 
solid step in that direction. The budget that was my 
recommendation, which was honestly kind of in motion before I 
was confirmed, is another positive step in that direction. It 
would take other successive steps over the years to get us back 
to 1.2.
    Senator Crapo. All right.
    Tell me a little bit about the difference between your 
budget proposal and the President's. What are the primary 
differences between your request, which is about $0.8 billion 
higher, and what areas do you think need additional funding 
beyond the President's budget that would have been included in 
your number?
    Commissioner O'Malley. Yes, sir. It is a matter of scale, 
but I think the priorities are the same.
    Senator Crapo. Okay.
    Commissioner O'Malley. And then I think we have a pretty 
good idea of where the backlogs are, where we're failing our 
customers, and where we need to restore staff most urgently. 
Absent that, we find ourselves playing Whac-A-Mole, shifting 
every day, taking trainers off of training and throwing them in 
the front office and doing other things that are bad overall 
for the productivity and the efficiency of the organization.
    Senator Crapo. All right; thank you.
    Moving to a different topic: information technology. I 
understand that you have been known to say that technology is 
the cause of and the solution to all of our problems. I 
appreciate your recognition of the critical role that IT plays 
in the Social Security Administration's operations, and your 
acknowledgment of the challenges that the SSA has had with it 
in terms of its projects over the years.
    During your nomination hearing, you said that, if 
confirmed, you would do a rapid assessment of SSA's IT systems, 
with a focus on how these systems serve the agency's customers 
and employees. What is the status of this assessment, and what 
can you share on your findings today?
    Commissioner O'Malley. Yes, sir. That assessment is 
underway, and we just hired a new CIO on March 4th. There was 
also a modernization plan that was put forward before that by 
the outgoing CIO, but we have experienced and insightful people 
from MITRE who are doing exactly that assessment.
    It is not completed yet. They have only kind of just begun 
their work. I would have liked to have hired a CIO before March 
4th, but that was her first day. She is very good, Marcela 
Escobar-Alava, and all of that is underway.
    In fact, we are already shifting things. For example, PIE, 
we had to shift things from one aspect of the IT budget in 
order to make sure that PIE started on time. But that overall 
evaluation is underway, and there will be short-term and long-
term things that we need to do. The longer modernization goal 
should be to get to a modern customer relations management 
platform that allows the American people the same level of 
customer service they get when they are calling other 
corporations in the private sector, whether an insurance 
company or a bank.
    Senator Crapo. Well, thank you. I will be very interested 
in that assessment. I would appreciate it if you would give us 
some updates as you move along.
    Commissioner O'Malley. Yes, sir. Thank you.
    The Chairman. Senator Menendez?
    Senator Menendez. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Governor, I hope 
you had a good St. Patrick's Day.
    When you came before the committee in November, I asked you 
about your commitment to improving payment accuracy. As you 
know, my office has heard from beneficiaries who have received 
letters saying they must pay back thousands or in some cases 
tens of thousands of dollars to the government.
    I have been pleased to see your demonstrated commitment to 
addressing overpayment inequities, but there is more work to be 
done. This issue spans from a challenging appeals process, low 
staffing that leads to beneficiaries receiving bills that date 
back 30 years, and challenges around payroll data.
    How will the President's budget help address this 
multifaceted problem that leads to overpayments?
    Commissioner O'Malley. Yes. Senator, thank you for your 
question, and thank you for urging us forward to do even more. 
The things that I announced today about moving away from the 
100-percent intercepts, the default position, shifting of the 
burden--all of those things will make a difference.
    There are still other things that we need to untangle and 
figure out with regard to administrative finality and the like. 
But you kind of put your fingers on one of the problems, and it 
is this. You know, we have not seen more citizens being 
assessed overpayments, but we have seen the time it takes to 
assess the overpayment grow, and therefore the debt itself 
grows because of the shortage of staff and the extra length of 
time it takes before we discover it, or before we are able to 
contact the person and make arrangements.
    Senator Menendez. That's simply not fair.
    Commissioner O'Malley. Pardon?
    Senator Menendez. That's simply not fair.
    Commissioner O'Malley. What is not fair, that we should not 
have staffing; that it should take us so long?
    Senator Menendez. Well, no, that the time frame that it 
took to ultimately make those determinations has added to a 
cost that otherwise would not have existed.
    Commissioner O'Malley. That's true. It's not fair. People 
have paid for their customer service. It comes out of the same 
trust fund it always has back when it was 1.2 percent. And so 
you ask, ``What would the President's budget do for us on 
that?'' It would allow us to restore many of the staff losses 
that will allow us to narrow that amount of time.
    So, as I said before, 75 percent of the debts in the title 
II OASDI are $5,000 or less. Ninety-two percent of people get a 
hold of us, but in an agency this big, if you are harming 8 
percent of the people, that is a lot of people.
    Senator Menendez. Well, I will look forward to your work in 
this, and to hearing as you go along if there are other things 
that need to be done. I would like to know. I am sure members 
of the committee would as well.
    Commissioner O'Malley. Thank you, Senator.
    Senator Menendez. A CBO report from last month has yet 
again proven that certain right-wing voices claiming that 
immigrants are so-called takers who drain our Nation's 
resources are blatantly wrong. Here are a few excerpts from the 
report.
    Immigrants will grow the entire U.S. labor force by an 
extra 5.2 million workers over the next 10 years. Over the next 
10 years, our GDP will be about $7 trillion larger, and our 
Federal tax revenues $1 trillion greater than they would 
otherwise be without these immigrants. The report confirms that 
America's prosperity and financial security depend upon the 
enormous contributions of hardworking immigrants, and as more 
and more Americans retire, new immigrants eager for work 
opportunities will help fund our Social Security system for all 
Americans.
    And so, even though undocumented immigrant workers 
contribute billions into our Social Security system to keep it 
solvent for U.S. citizens, they do not receive a single dime in 
benefits from it. So, do you agree with the CBO's findings, 
that immigrant workers continue to be essential to keeping our 
Social Security fund solvent?
    Commissioner O'Malley. I sure do, Senator.
    Senator Menendez. Okay. And that is a point that often goes 
unreported in a way that I think is part of the consideration 
that we should have.
    Finally, when applying for SSDI or SSI disability benefits, 
individuals reported they have spent years with little or no 
income working through the system, only to see their 
application rejected. They also described dehumanizing, 
extensive, and highly confusing paperwork.
    A recent report from the Center for American Progress notes 
that only 33 percent of applicants for SSDI and 32 percent of 
applicants for disability benefits with SSI were awarded 
benefits at any time in the process, largely due to extreme 
administrative burdens and delays.
    What can you do as Commissioner to reduce the red tape and 
extreme barriers that individuals with disabilities face when 
they are trying to collect the benefits to which they are 
entitled?
    Commissioner O'Malley. Yes, sir. There is rarely a day that 
goes by when we are not wrestling with the complexities of this 
program, both in disability determinations and especially in 
SSI. Supplemental Security Income is about 4 percent of our 
benefit outlays, but it is about 40 percent of our 
administrative overhead.
    This program seems to get in its own way. In other words, 
while it purports to be a program of last resort for the 
poorest of people, it forces the poorest of people to jump 
through hoops, stand on their head, and gargle peanut butter in 
order to qualify for it.
    So there are things we can do to simplify SSI, and some of 
those things are underway. The movement to electronic 
signatures in the agency is part of that. But the larger 
problem is this: it is a very staff-intensive program to 
administer, and it is an income-based program, and our staffing 
levels are at a 27-year low. So, in addition to being a complex 
program, it is also facing the same sort of understaffing 
challenges that the whole agency is facing.
    Senator Menendez. I look forward to following up on that.
    Commissioner O'Malley. Thank you.
    The Chairman. I thank my colleague.
    Senator Grassley?
    Senator Grassley. Remote work is a problem throughout the 
Federal Government, not just with Social Security. But I want 
you to know that I hear from Iowans that getting in-person 
assistance at field offices is a real challenge. I recently 
read about your organization entering into a memorandum of 
understanding with the employee union that expands this 
episodic telework.
    So how are you going--by the way, I think this is something 
you and I discussed when you came to my office.
    Commissioner O'Malley. Yes, sir.
    Senator Grassley. I did not try to get a commitment out of 
you on anything on that point, but I did want to point out to 
you how I thought that your predecessor probably lost his job 
because he was taking on this effort to try to get more people 
to come to the office.
    So how are you going to serve seniors when there is even 
more remote work than there is now?
    Commissioner O'Malley. Yes, Senator. Let me share with you 
that on February 2nd, we changed our telework balance, and this 
is the sum and substance of it. I said, ``Look, I am here on 
site 5 days a week, every day of the week, and if I am not 
here, I am in one of the regions or catching a dawn's early 
light flight.''
    The Commissioner's office at headquarters is here 4 days a 
week, one of telework. All of the other components, 3 days a 
week, 2 of telework. Now, the field offices have been open 5 
days a week, 9 to 5, ever since the shutdown ended. That is a 
fact.
    We also do a pretty decent job of getting people 
appointments within a reasonable time. We can debate what 
reasonable is, but they also answer the phones in the field 
offices between 3 to 5 minutes. But this item that you touched 
on, the episodic telework, is simply this.
    When I was in--I cannot remember whether I was in Kansas 
City or San Francisco, a young dad who worked at our 
teleservice centers said, ``My son was really sick. I needed to 
get him to emergency care right away, but my wife was coming 
home and was going to come off her job and relieve me. I asked 
my supervisor could I come in and work the second half of the 
day, and she said, `No. We do not allow that sort of episodic 
granting of a half-day or something.' ''
    And so, when it came time for us to bring everybody back to 
the regional headquarters, and everybody back to the Baltimore 
headquarters for more days, the question was asked, ``Are we 
going to allow them to take a personal half-day and telework on 
those days if some calamity happens, sick kid, you know, a flat 
tire or something?''
    I said, ``Well, sure. We are not monsters; we are human 
beings. Life happens.'' They said, ``Well, what about for the 
union-
organized workforce?'' I said, ``Don't they already have 
that?'' And they said, ``No.'' I said, ``Well, that's not fair. 
I mean, don't they have sick kids? Don't they have flat tires? 
''
    I don't want that to distract you though from the larger 
movement, which is to have core collaboration days at the 
headquarters, to keep those field offices open 5 days a week, 9 
to 5, and to make sure that we see people. We are doing all of 
those things, albeit with a lot less staff than before. But we 
are not going backward and doing more telework.
    Senator Grassley. Both Trump and Biden are running on a 
campaign of not cutting Social Security. I think that is a 
stupid thing. They are not serving the future generations they 
should by running on that sort of a platform, but that is their 
platform. Obviously if they do nothing, they are not going to 
cut it in the next 4 years.
    But we all know that by 2033, based on what your studies 
show, that it is going to go from 100 percent down to 77 
percent of scheduled benefits. Now, is that a cut to you? I am 
not asking what Trump and Biden would say about it. But if you 
go from 100 percent to 77 percent, isn't that a cut?
    Commissioner O'Malley. Absolutely. If Congress is not able 
to avert it, as you all did in 1982, that would be a real hit 
to people.
    Senator Grassley. Yes. The Social Security Act requires the 
Board of Trustees, which includes the Social Security 
Commissioner, to report on trust fund financial status by April 
1st. It is frequently missed. Can Congress expect that report 
April 1st, and if not, why not?
    Commissioner O'Malley. We were hopeful that we were going 
to be able to get it to you, but there was data from the U.S. 
Census that was late arriving. So we will not make it on April 
1st, but it will come shortly thereafter. There will be a delay 
of a few weeks, but not a few months.
    Senator Grassley. Great.
    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    The Chairman. I thank my colleague.
    Senator Carper is next.
    Senator Carper. Yes, thanks very much. Welcome. It is great 
to be with you. Thank you. Thank you for taking this on. And 
part of me kind of envies you for taking on a challenge of this 
magnitude--and you really jumped right into it--and getting a 
running start. So, congratulations.
    We are here to help, and we are grateful for your service 
in this regard.
    Commissioner O'Malley. Thank you.
    Senator Carper. I thank the chairman, and I thank the 
ranking member for bringing you back before us so soon. I think 
it was in 2023 this committee considered your nomination. It 
seems longer, but it was 2023. But we're really pleased--I was 
pleased to support your nomination, and really pleased to see 
the strong bipartisan support that it received.
    And for the first time, I think, in close to 10 years, our 
committee is meeting to review the budget of the Social 
Security Administration, which has responsibility for providing 
support for our seniors and individuals with disabilities.
    As you mentioned in your testimony, amid historic 
underfunding and understaffing, the Social Security 
Administration is facing what we call, and you probably do too, 
a customer service crisis.
    The average call time--we have talked to you, and we have 
discussed this already--but the average hold time for an 
individual wanting to speak to a staff member at the Social 
Security Administration is 38 minutes. The average American 
waits about 220 days--that's over 7 months--for an initial 
decision about their disability status.
    These numbers are more than disappointing; they are 
shocking. They are just not acceptable, if they are true, and I 
would leave that up to you. The Social Security 
Administration's programs cannot succeed without first 
delivering gold-standard service to all of our Americans. I am 
encouraged that the agency is maybe prioritizing serving those 
with greatest need, and ensuring disability applicants with the 
most severe conditions are given an initial decision within 30 
days or less.
    The last time you were good enough to appear before our 
committee, I recommended that you talk with Danny Werfel, 
Commissioner of the Internal Revenue Service. Like you, he has 
inherited an agency with a customer service crisis. While I 
know you have a tough job ahead, I'm encouraged that the 
President's budget for Fiscal Year 2025 makes critical 
investments for customer service at the Social Security 
Administration.
    My question is, should the President's budget be enacted, 
how would you leverage this investment to improve the agency's 
customer service? You talked about this a bit already, but 
especially for reducing call and disability claim wait times, 
can you speak to the unique customer service challenges the 
Social Security Administration is facing, and how the agency, 
Social Security as you see it, can learn from Danny Werfel's 
success at the IRS?
    Commissioner O'Malley. Yes sir; thank you, Senator. The 
President's budget is a very, very strong step in a better 
direction for this agency's customer service. Of the $15.4 
billion proposed in the President's budget, our plan is to 
increase front-line staff serving our customers by $269 
million, to increase the staffing at our teleservice centers. 
They have an attrition rate of 24 percent----
    Senator Carper. A year?
    Commissioner O'Malley [continuing]. In our teleservice 
centers. You can only imagine the sort of stress that people 
encounter on an under-performing system when people have been 
on hold for 45 minutes or an hour--nobody's coming in pleasant 
after waiting on hold for benefits they have already earned.
    We plan to invest $85 million to bring down the backlogs in 
our processing centers. Some of you, no doubt, got calls from 
people who said, ``I got a notice from Social Security saying 
they should process my claim in 30 days. It has been 90 days. I 
have not heard anything from them.''
    So we have to get those backlogs down. The biggest 
investment would be at the initial disability stage, 50 States. 
Delaware, Maryland, Louisiana all have their own DDS offices 
that make the initial determinations. Those backlogs have grown 
and grown and grown. In fact, in my prepared remarks before 
you, I believe I have a map of the United States with the 50 
States. That map is supposed to be shaded. The green is 
supposed to represent States that get it done in 120 days. 
There is no green on the continental United States. Across the 
South, particularly, there are acute backlogs. So that is why 
we would invest $2.8 billion to staff up the DDSs where 
attrition has been great, and where half of their staff seem to 
be in training status, and therefore not as productive as they 
could or should be if they fully had a grasp of the material.
    We are doing some other things with technology, but none of 
those things can make up for the yawning gap between having the 
highest number of beneficiaries in our history and the lowest 
staffing we have had in 27 years.
    We are getting a lot of great bunt singles to get on base 
in terms of process efficiency and automated Medicare 
processing and things like that, but those are bunt singles. 
Only Congress can hit the home run of restoring our staffing, 
and ideally making quick strides to get us back to that 1.2 
percent of average outlays that we always had been before 2018.
    The Chairman. I thank my colleague.
    Senator Carper. Thanks, Mr. Chairman.
    The Chairman. Next is--let's see, Senator Cassidy.
    Senator Cassidy. Hey, Mr. O'Malley. At your nomination 
hearing, I noted how the Social Security Administration is 
relying on a 50-year-old Dictionary of Occupational Titles. I 
smile because, when you read some of them, they are clearly 
anachronisms. The agency has spent over $500 million paying the 
Bureau of Labor Statistics to come up with an updated 
occupational data file and spending another $100 million on 
staff and contractor time testing the file.
    Senator Brown and I introduced a bill requiring SSA to 
compile this and submit a report every 3 years. Where are you, 
where is the agency, on implementing the updated occupational 
titles?
    Commissioner O'Malley. Yes. Senator, there seems to be no 
end to the ongoing outlays of money proposed for an updating of 
the dictionary of titles. I have kind of put the brakes on 
this, frankly. It is a lot of money, and I think with the 
availability of technology and data sharing and other things 
that are out there in the world, I think we need to take a 
fresh look at whether we can get from point A, which was last 
updated, I guess in 1991, to a more modern system, without 
necessarily having to send out giant teams of researchers to do 
103 more side-by-side studies for 2 weeks, of cashiers and what 
the physical requirements are for them.
    There is a level of complexity here, yes. But I think to 
continue to put more and more money into doing this the way we 
have been doing it and having no results does not make a lot of 
sense, given our budget throes. So I have asked them to hit the 
``pause'' button on this while we reevaluate and see if there 
might be another way to get it done.
    Senator Cassidy. Well, it was not under your authority, but 
if we spent $600 million and accomplished nothing, it is 
incredibly frustrating.
    Commissioner O'Malley. Hugely frustrating.
    Senator Cassidy. So let me ask you--and that leads me to 
the next thing--about modernizing your legacy systems, your 
technology systems, et cetera, and specifically, how do you use 
AI? In health care, we are trying to use AI; I say that as a 
physician.
    For example, the National Health Service in England has 
used AI to screen people with mental health issues, and they 
found a greater degree of satisfaction among the screeners, the 
screenees, and they found that when the doctors and nurses 
received the record, they were better done than had a human 
done them.
    Now, this seems ideal for your backlog. You are having a 
hard time hiring people. You have a labor shortage. That would 
be something that could be done, and perhaps even produce a 
better file if it is the same experience as the National Health 
Service.
    All that as a lead-in, to what degree is the agency 
updating their systems with an eye toward AI, not just for that 
but for fraud, et cetera? I turn it to you.
    Commissioner O'Malley. Yes, sir. There are a lot of areas 
ripe for this, and our top, I would say training priority has 
actually to do with using an automated system in the disability 
determinations.
    There is a tool that SSA invented called IMAGEN, and IMAGEN 
essentially takes those 1,000 pages of medical records and puts 
them in a form that can be searched and be curated, and 
compared to past applicants to see, even assess, what is the 
percentage likelihood of this one being an allowance? ``Make 
sure you take your eyes to page 912 of this report, to page 
702, because that is where the parts are about what the 
claimant has been experiencing.''
    Senator Cassidy. Now, this is an AI system or an algorithm? 
Is this something that you developed in-house, or is it 
something that you contracted for?
    Commissioner O'Malley. Yes, it is something we developed 
in-house. Victory has a thousand fathers. Because it works 
right and because it reduces the time by about 50 percent that 
it takes to examine all of these records, there are people 
inside the agency who say the agency invented it, and there is 
a contractor who says they invented it.
    Senator Cassidy. Okay, let me ask you; I am almost out of 
time. But going back to that 1.2, you mentioned that you have a 
relatively low overhead. Again, AI has the potential to further 
lower that, and so to what degree are you also using AI to look 
at fraud, to look at again, having intake of patients with 
complaints?
    The whole kind of backlog of complaints could be brought 
down if it turns out that you use AI to interview the 
individual as it is done elsewhere.
    Commissioner O'Malley. Yes. As part of our SecurityStat 
regimen, one of the hours--in fact, it is the only hour that we 
are closed to the public and do not livestream--is about fraud. 
One of the things that we have been able to do in fraud is to 
use machines to identify patterns, to identify anomalies.
    We need to do a constantly better job of that, but we do 
have models that do work, and we need to refine those models. 
So we are looking for needles in a needlestack instead of 
needles in a haystack when we refer cases and flag cases back 
for a second review in the field office.
    Senator Cassidy. Well, I am out of time, but that is your 
aspiration. I guess my question though is, to what degree are 
you employing AI or other tech in order to help do that, 
because that does seem something, that pattern recognition 
seems to be tailor-made for that, which we could use AI for.
    Commissioner O'Malley. Yes. We are already doing some of 
that. We can do more, and I think we can do more immediately 
when it comes to geospatial, and identifying emerging hot spots 
on the map, or the impossible medical days and things of that 
nature.
    Senator Cassidy. Thank you.
    Commissioner O'Malley. Thank you.
    The Chairman. Senator Lankford is next.
    Senator Lankford. Okay, Mr. Chairman, thank you.
    Thanks for being here in the conversation. I know you 
jumped into the deep end of the pool with a lot of areas to be 
able to resolve some things. My State is one of the States that 
is working with the Driver's License Data Verification system, 
which we have been very behind on. Social Security has been 
very helpful to us in the process of going through that, so I 
just wanted to give you kudos----
    Commissioner O'Malley. I thank you.
    Senator Lankford [continuing]. And give you a chance to be 
able to hear that, that we are working through that. Some has 
been on our State's responsibility and some on yours, but we 
seem to be getting very close on that.
    We do have a lot of constituent requests that are coming in 
on the issue about overpayments. When they get an overpayment 
statement and they are asked to be able to go track down work 
history and records, and how much they were paid from years 
ago, it is difficult, obviously, for them.
    They have to be able to work this out, to be able to figure 
it out. The challenge has been not that they have to go chase 
some of that down. That is part of the process for them to be 
able to figure it out. It is the communication on the back side 
of that.
    It is, do they have a person they are working with? Can 
they get in contact with them? Can they maintain communication 
with that person consistently, trying to be able to work out 
the details? That is still an ongoing issue to try to figure 
out.
    It is confusing enough for a lot of folks who are trying to 
be able to handle an overpayment situation, trying to be able 
to chase down the records. It is more confusing when they deal 
with different people in the process, to be able to resolve it.
    So, as much as we can maintain the consistency of that, an 
open line of communication, that would be helpful.
    Commissioner O'Malley. Great; well said. And I think the 
best thing for people to do is to get to their field office 
when they have one of those notices.
    Senator Lankford. Right.
    Commissioner O'Malley. You can work out a payment plan by 
calling the 800 number and eventually getting connected with 
the debt collection folks. But the best thing to do is to go to 
your field office.
    Senator Lankford. Yes. And they maybe will have the 
opportunity to be able to do that. We are obviously improving 
those options, but it is its own challenge when you are in a 
rural area and have difficulty traveling and all those things.
    Commissioner O'Malley. Sure.
    Senator Lankford. So, a couple of handoff issues I just 
want to be able to raise to you. One of them is, years ago--and 
I will leave out all the wheres and the whys on this just to 
protect her in the process. But I was walking through a Social 
Security office--and I think you and I have talked about this 
before--in my State, walking to the cubicles, just meeting 
people, asking what they do, trying to get some insight from 
them on what we could do better. One of my favorite answers was 
someone who said to me when I said, ``What do you do?'', she 
replied, ``I do something the Federal Government should not do. 
That is what I do.'' I said, ``Well, what do you do?'' She 
said, ``Well, I spend my days trying to figure out how to pay 
attorneys that I did not hire, and someone who hired a 
disability attorney, in fact they hired two or three attorneys, 
and I have to figure out what percentage to pay each person.''
    Somehow, we have got to figure out how to be able to manage 
this, because obviously the good staff who are at Social 
Security, they do not have any relationship with all these 
attorneys. Yet they are having to actually choose which 
attorneys to be able to pay what amount, and to be able to 
track through all these bundles of records as they fight 
through the process on that.
    So that is something we have just got to be able to figure 
out together, how to be able to resolve that, and to be able to 
make that easier.
    The other thing is, dealing with some attorneys, not all, 
some attorneys who stretch out the length of a process because 
they know if they stretch it out to the farthest point, if they 
ask for delays, if they show up at hearings and try to submit 
one more record, it forces it to go a little bit longer.
    There is a maximum amount they can be paid, and if they can 
stretch out the whole proceeding, they can get to their maximum 
amount. We've got to be able to figure that out as well. I 
understand that some people want to be able to hire a counsel, 
but those individuals and those counsels that we see 
repetitively that are lengthening cases that could be done 
quickly to be able to make sure they maximize their payments, 
that is wrong in a million ways, especially for that individual 
receiving disability.
    What ideas have come at this point to be able to identify 
consistent law firms that are stretching things out to the 
longest possible way, and if we are seeing that pattern for 
them, what consequences can we bring to be able to make sure we 
are protecting the disability individual, not benefiting the 
attorneys?
    Commissioner O'Malley. Yes, sir. I had heard that same 
story. In further investigation, I am not finding a whole lot 
of evidence of that, and perhaps it is because the wait times 
have become so horribly long that they----
    Senator Lankford. Right. It is assumed it is always there--
--
    Commissioner O'Malley [continuing]. Are always going to 
reach their maximum just given--they have no need to delay the 
case, because it is also a violation of the professional code 
of conduct to do such a thing.
    Senator Lankford. Sure it is.
    Commissioner O'Malley. We have noticed, though--we have 
shifted from doing hearings primarily in person before COVID, 
and then of course we could not do any in person, so we were 
using teleconference and videoconference. Now even after COVID, 
the vast majority of our hearings are being done by 
teleconference or video, which is allowing us to close a few 
hearing offices as well.
    We noticed though, in mapping, that there are some regions 
of the country where it seems that people, and the law firms in 
disproportionate numbers, still insist on their personal 
appearance in face-to-face hearings. So we are able to see that 
on a map.
    We are able to make some calls. We are able to address it. 
I think it was less a matter of maximizing fees and more a 
matter of not realizing how much more quickly they could get 
clients good results. We also looked at the difference between 
the two results, in-person or teleconference, and found no 
difference in terms of percentage of allowances.
    Senator Lankford. Great; thank you.
    Let me just make a couple of quick statements here I want 
to be able to follow up on the record. One is the difference 
between the administrative law judges and the administrative 
appeals judges. Obviously, there is a big difference between 
the two.
    I have some questions, because I understand Social Security 
is leaning toward more administrative appeals judges, and I 
just want to be able to do some follow-up on that.
    The other one is the transition from SSI to SSDI for those 
teenagers making that transition. I have talked to several 
folks who are talking about the length of time that it takes. I 
wonder if there is a way to be able to expedite the hearing 
when you are actually making that transition, to be able to 
make sure that those who are transitioning from SSI to SSDI--
because obviously there are two different standards there. Many 
do not qualify in the next level, and I want to make sure that 
we are actually managing that handoff well. We can talk about 
that later, or I can try to submit that for the record.
    Commissioner O'Malley. Great, thank you.
    Senator Lankford. Thank you.
    The Chairman. Senator Cardin?
    Senator Cardin. Governor O'Malley, Mayor O'Malley, 
Commissioner O'Malley, whatever title you are using now, 
welcome to our committee. It is good to have you here. I note 
that you have visited all the regions. You have commented about 
that. I think that is a good thing to do, to really try to 
understand the challenges that are out there in the field.
    I noticed that the next generation of your ``stats'' is 
SecurityStat, and I think that is going to be very helpful for 
all of us, including your workforce, to be able to have metrics 
in order to judge the progress that they are making.
    But I just really want to--this is a hearing on the 
President's budget, and if I understand it, the President's 
budget would give you 1.2 percent for administering of the 
benefits outlays. I just want to go to this one chart that you 
presented, and make sure I understand this correctly. If we 
fund the President's budget--one of the major complaints we get 
is the wait time on the 1-800 number. You are telling us that 
with those resources, you can reduce the wait time from 38 
minutes to 5 minutes? Am I reading that correctly?
    Commissioner O'Malley. I cannot say that. What I can say is 
that we believe that we can bring it down. It's currently 
roughly over 30 minutes. The last full week of reporting we had 
ended March 8th, and it was down to 31, which is a better trend 
line. We have been wrestling it down.
    I believe that with the President's budget, we could bring 
it down another 20 minutes to more like an 11- or 12-minute 
wait time.
    Senator Cardin. And then long-term, with that support, you 
believe you can bring it down to within 5 minutes?
    Commissioner O'Malley. I believe with further strides, we 
can bring it down to 5 minutes, and in fact in the field 
offices--the wait is 3 to 5 minutes for the field offices.
    Senator Cardin. And the other issue that we hear about all 
the time is the disability determinations, the time from the 
initial disability reconsideration decisions, which now go 
about two-thirds of the year. You are saying you can bring that 
down also? Can you just talk a little bit more about the trend 
line there?
    Commissioner O'Malley. Yes, sir. That is going to be a 
longer task; it involves more training. But in essence, we 
would plan to use $2.8 billion to restore the staffing losses 
that have happened over the last 9 years, when we have gone 
without even having a budget hearing or an appropriation 
hearing.
    Some of the greatest attrition has happened at our State 
DDS offices. So we would use that $2.8 billion to hire up 
again. All of these 50 are State employees, as you know, that 
our Federal dollars pay for. Each of those offices have 
different leaders and face different challenges. But we need to 
get their staffing back up.
    We have also designated some cadres within the Federal 
aspects of the agency that can help bail out those DDSs. But 
that is more like emergency work. The longer-term is, we have 
to get the staffing back up in those DDSs, and that is the 
biggest chunk of the additional dollars in the President's 
budget.
    Senator Cardin. And then the wait time for a hearing 
decision itself--I am not sure how the budget directly impacts 
that. Maybe you could explain that a little bit more.
    Commissioner O'Malley. Yes, sir.
    Senator Cardin. It still is shocking it is a year for those 
decisions.
    Commissioner O'Malley. Yes; I will do my best. There are, 
in essence, three stages to a disability determination. The 
first one is the initial stage. That is a process. It begins 
with in-person application at the field office. Then it goes 
from the field office to the State DDS, and there it can sit, 
used to be 120 days. Now the average time is 228 days and has 
every indication of rising as their attrition in fact rises.
    If you are denied that, your next level of appeal is to go 
for a reconsideration in that same State office, which also 
takes another 220 days.
    Senator Cardin. And how does the President's budget attempt 
to address that delay?
    Commissioner O'Malley. With greater staffing, we will be 
able to process more cases more quickly. It is almost like a 
school system, where all of your staffing is in teachers. If 
you have rising numbers of students and declining numbers of 
teachers, you are going to have greater class sizes.
    By way of a metaphor, with fewer staff in the DDSs, the 
number of cases per each staff worker goes up, and therefore 
the wait times become longer.
    Senator Cardin. I just point out 1.2 percent seems like a 
rather low amount for an administrative cost for a program. I 
do not know too many private sectors that can administer a 
program at 1.2 percent. I would also acknowledge that we have a 
trust fund, and you have been disadvantaged because you are 
counted in the caps that we appropriate for, even though it is 
trust funds.
    Commissioner O'Malley. Yes, sir.
    Senator Cardin. We believe you should be budgeted, you 
should have oversight, but why it is included in the domestic 
spending caps is somewhat a mystery to many of us.
    Commissioner O'Malley. I do not quite understand it either. 
I have never served in the Federal service until now, but it 
would seem to me for all of those years that I worked, and you 
worked, and we were paying our FICA, nobody asked us if paying 
into Social Security was a discretionary act on our part.
    So I am not sure why suddenly those same FICA dollars that 
had always supported a high level of customer service are now 
in essence being cut. Before 2018, we operated on about 1.2 
percent compared to annual outlays. A company like Allstate 
operates on 19.4 percent. Liberty Mutual, Liberty Biberty, is 
23.6 percent compared to annual outlays.
    Social Security traditionally had been 1.2 percent. We are 
headed to a 27-year low, with the highest number of 
beneficiaries, and it would also be the lowest year in terms of 
that percentage. Now the President's budget gets us back up to 
.96 of 1 percent. Over the next couple of years--and it is not 
really even an appropriation in the sense that it is an 
allowance.
    It is allowing us to use the payments that workers have 
made over the years, not only for their benefits but for the 
customer service to access them. I think 1.2 percent is not 
much to pay for a high level of customer service for benefits 
we have already earned.
    Senator Cardin [presiding]. Thank you.
    Senator Bennet?
    Senator Bennet. Commissioner, it is great to see you.
    Commissioner O'Malley. Great to see you.
    Senator Bennet. Thank you for your willingness to serve, 
and I know you are new to the job, so what you are hearing 
today is not anything that you have been able to address 
directly. But just on that point that you are making about 
changing demographics--there are more retirees, there are fewer 
people to support them.
    I mean, what do you think we need to do to--not to surge 
more resources at the problem, but use technology and other 
kinds of things to be able to address this? I mean, we have in 
Colorado, I know, more and more people retiring every day. The 
numbers that I have seen are as many as 400 people at a time 
waiting in line for 20 appointments in the State.
    I know that is true everywhere. You have heard that. How do 
we not just throw resources at it, but do it in a targeted way 
that actually drives systems change that can make sense here?
    Commissioner O'Malley. Senator, you are exactly right in 
the role that technology plays. It is people, it is processes, 
and it is technology. On all three of those, we have suffered 
from a lack of investment. When it comes to technology, our 
technology budget is about one-third of the size of what you 
appropriate to Veterans Affairs.
    In our case, it is one-third of that amount for a much 
larger population, and because of our legacy systems--IBM, 
COBOL, green screen--you know, it's the layers of Jerusalem 
built upon themselves for the last 88 years.
    Ninety percent of our technology budget goes to 
maintenance, what they call ``keeping the lights on.'' The 
other 10 percent goes to product development and modernization. 
Some of the best modernizations, really, have bubbled up and 
back to Social Security from the regions of Social Security, 
rather than something that was done on a nationwide basis. So 
we need more staff, but we also need to modernize our 
technology.
    There are some things that we have discovered that we 
brought back from the field. I do not think I mentioned this 
one here. When I was in Birmingham, they said, ``Look, we 
invented this here. This is a way that, when people apply for 
Medicare, we are able to automate a process that used to take a 
human technician 8 minutes to go through--yes, that is Mr. 
Bennet, that is his mother's maiden name, you know, all of 
those sorts of things, and many, many screens.''
    They were able to build that on Excel and automate that 
process so that it happens in 7 seconds. And if there is an 
anomaly, say an election for Part B when you wanted to say D, 
it stops and tells the technician there is an anomaly in the 
application that needs to be tended to.
    Now, that will save 40 work-years. It was all gummed up 
from years of not having a confirmed Commissioner who could 
drive things through the office of information security and the 
lawyers and the policy and all of that.
    We got it done quickly, but it is 40 work-years. We are 
hitting bunt singles. We are hitting them fast. Some of those 
things involve better use of technology and automation. But the 
sort of things that are total system changes, we do not have 
the money to do. We could, and it would be a good expenditure.
    You know, we have a little museum up at Social Security. It 
is only about the size of two big rooms. But you go through 
there and you see Walter Cronkite interviewing the head of 
technology at Social Security in Baltimore in like 1969, and 
they are so proud that this agency that serves the American 
people is at the forefront of technological innovation and 
customer service.
    That was then, man. That is not now. This agency, there is 
nothing we can--there are no clever tricks of technology that 
can cross that yawning gap between beneficiaries going like 
this [pointing up] and staffing at a 27-year low. There are 
clearly technological improvements, clearly process 
improvements, but we need additional staff.
    Senator Bennet. Well, I hope you will let the committee 
know, as you get into this, how we can be of greater help to 
you as well. And I am not surprised, you know, that for 
somebody who has worked at the local level as you have and as I 
have, there is a lot of skepticism sometimes of whether a 
command-and-control approach is going to get the job done.
    And the innovation that you are already seeing in the 
field, I hope you are able to collect that, bring it here, and 
tell us what we need to do, so that together we can provide a 
better level of customer service for everybody.
    Commissioner O'Malley. Thank you. Please come and see 
SecurityStat in Baltimore. You would dig it as a former city 
guy.
    Senator Bennet. Thank you; thank you.
    The Chairman. Thank you, Senator Bennet.
    Senator Whitehouse?
    Senator Whitehouse. Thank you very much.
    Great to have you back with us.
    Commissioner O'Malley. Good to be back.
    Senator Whitehouse. We are, I think a number of us, working 
here on ways to make sure that Social Security stays solvent 
essentially indefinitely. I think if the American people knew 
that Social Security was going to be solvent into the 
indefinite future, that Medicare was going to be solvent into 
the indefinite future, it would have a calming and reassuring 
effect on folks.
    It is just an unnecessary asterisk for them to have to add 
to their family's financial planning, to think, uh, maybe, what 
is Congress going to do? So I have proposed a pretty simple 
bill that kicks in the payment to Social Security back over 
$400,000, to honor Joe Biden's promise that he was not going to 
raise taxes for people earning under $400,000.
    So I would also add that I chair the Budget Committee, and 
in our hearing last week on the budget, Shalanda Young, who 
heads OMB, came in and said that this bill was absolutely in 
line with the principles that President Biden espoused in his 
State of the Union address.
    So I think we have a real chance to deliver that solvency 
and that security for the American people. I want to ask you to 
commit to making sure that your team can give us whatever 
technical assistance and factual support that we need to make 
sure we make the best presentation and are working with the 
best factual information as we try to solve this problem, by 
basically trying to solve two problems at once.
    One is an unfair and rigged tax code that lets high-income 
earners off in a way that regular wage earners are not; and 
second is the solvency and security indefinitely of Social 
Security.
    Commissioner O'Malley. Well, Senator, I look forward to 
working with you on that. We have an outstanding Chief Actuary 
at Social Security, and the work that they do, the analysis 
they can do, the permutations, parameters, probabilities--we 
would love to be able to work with you on that.
    Senator Whitehouse. And it was through your Social Security 
Actuary that we reached the determination that this would keep 
Social Security solvent indefinitely----
    Commissioner O'Malley. The last big----
    Senator Whitehouse. Through the entire horizon that the 
Social Security Actuary looks, it is solvent and probably 
beyond.
    Commissioner O'Malley. Yes. Seventy-five years is a long 
time.
    Senator Whitehouse. It is a long time.
    Commissioner O'Malley. The last time this Congress--well, 
not this Congress. The last time our Congress wrestled with 
this, the depletion of that was only about 2 months off of the 
horizon.
    Senator Whitehouse. Yes.
    Commissioner O'Malley. So hopefully, we will not wait that 
long. It can be fixed. I learn something every day up there, 
but one of the things I learned was, I asked Steve Goss why is 
it, what did we get wrong when we said it was going to be 75 
years solvent in 1982, but now we have moved that depletion 
event up to 2034?
    He said we got two things wrong. We failed to account for 
the depth and the breadth of the recession and what that would 
do. But he also said the bigger problem was the tax reforms 
that followed the 1982 solvency fix, which shoved so much 
earned income out of the bracket to which FICA applied, that 
instead of it capturing 90 percent of earned dollars, it only 
ended up capturing 82 percent as we chose to concentrate at the 
very top earners the income growth for the next 40 years.
    Senator Whitehouse. Yes, yes. There are two problems. One 
is the cap, and the other is the ability of very highly paid 
individuals to divert their pay through an LLC or shell 
corporation so that it does not come in as taxable wages. And 
we are going to try to solve both of those ways around fair 
taxation, and do so in a way that takes this worry--is Social 
Security going to be there; is Medicare going to be there for 
me?--off the list of things Americans have to worry about.
    And let me just, in my 40 seconds that remain, commend you 
for the emphasis you have put on customer service. Your 
colleague over at the IRS has been beefed up with considerable 
resources for customer service, and I will tell you that, 
sitting down with Rhode Island's Taxpayer Advocate, they are 
seeing results. They are seeing wait times reduced. The 
Taxpayer Advocate also has to go get in line with IRS central 
to get information. So, if they are jammed up at IRS central 
for information, even Taxpayer Advocates have to intermediate 
between a concern of an irritated taxpayer and the institution.
    They are just seeing there like all their decks--they are 
just clearing through their backlogs, and it has really been a 
very, very big deal for ordinary Americans who have to deal 
with the IRS to be able to see that happen. So, make it happen 
for Social Security too, and we will have a lot of happy 
customers.
    Commissioner O'Malley. We can do it.
    The Chairman. I thank my colleague
    Next is Senator Casey.
    Senator Casey. Mr. Chairman, thanks very much. And, 
Commissioner, I want to thank you for having two rounds today.
    For those who do not know, our Aging Committee had a 
hearing with the Commissioner earlier today, and we are 
grateful for your service, grateful for your willingness to do 
this difficult job, and grateful for your testimony today.
    I wanted to try to cover maybe at least two issues. One is 
Supplemental Security Income and child applicants. That is the 
first issue. It has been well documented that the number of 
children receiving so-called SSI is 20-percent below what it 
was prior to the pandemic.
    SSI benefits, as you know, are especially important for 
children with disabilities, and for children of parents who 
have disabilities. Families that include a member with a 
disability have up to 25 percent more expenses than a family 
without a member who has a disability.
    So those families obviously have financial burdens that 
others do not, and we know that SSI benefits provide a stable, 
important source of income to address these additional 
expenses. And I am concerned, as I know you and so many others 
are, about the 20-percent decrease in child recipients. It 
means that hundreds of thousands of families may be struggling 
to meet the added expenses that a disability can bring to a 
child and that child's family.
    In Pennsylvania, SSA and the State disability services 
office work to identify children who may be eligible for SSI 
and let their families know that their children may be eligible 
for SSI. Nationwide however, the child SSI applications are 
only slowly increasing.
    What is the Social Security Administration doing to address 
the decrease in child SSI recipients? That is one question. And 
the other is, how is SSA, the Social Security Administration, 
reaching out to families who may have a child who is eligible 
for SSI benefits so that families can apply for the resources 
Congress intended for them to have?
    Commissioner O'Malley. Senator, it is my understanding--and 
we have been analyzing the results that this campaign might 
have yielded--we spent a fair amount of money doing outreach 
and doing advertising.
    In your own State, as you mentioned, your State government, 
the government of the Commonwealth, took it upon themselves to 
do outreach and to do mailers. We saw some uptick. Overall, I 
am not sure that we can say that it was directly attributable 
to that advertising campaign.
    It would seem to me that the better approach would be to 
work with our brother and sister agencies in HHS to better 
target those households, those families, the guardians of those 
children or parents, and that would, I think, be the more cost-
effective and better way to go. Also, to reach out to schools 
and school systems. There is a network out there of people who 
already work with children day in and day out, and I think that 
that is the direction into which we will probably pivot. It is 
a much more sort of data matching, targeted network approach to 
reaching the right households with kids who qualify but are not 
applying.
    Senator Casey. Yes. Well, we look forward to working with 
you on that to get those numbers up. Like a lot of things in 
the pandemic, we are still trying to better understand why.
    Commissioner O'Malley. Right.
    Senator Casey. We look forward to working with you on that.
    The other thing I wanted to ask you about is ABLE accounts. 
I was able to pass--it is almost 10 years ago, it will be 10 
years in December--legislation, with the chairman's help at the 
time, so-called ABLE accounts, where we changed the tax code so 
you could save for a disability just like you save for college.
    We had this anomaly in the tax code where literally, in the 
same family, one daughter could have a 529 account for the 
family and anyone who wanted to help that child save for higher 
education, yet her sister who might have a disability might go 
to college or might not. Because her sister has a disability, 
there is no way to save for that sister beyond the $2,000 cap.
    So we changed the law, and now those families can save up 
to $100,000 a year. So it makes it possible, for example, for 
SSI recipients to save up to $100,000 a year for disability 
expenses, and still maintain SSI benefits. Here is the problem: 
the number of people with ABLE accounts in the country is only 
about 165,000.
    So the eligibility is wide, but the sign-up, or those who 
have taken advantage of it, is small. So literally, every 
person who is an SSI recipient and who had acquired their 
disability before the age of 26 is eligible to open an ABLE 
account.
    So I want to work with you on that. I just would ask you--
and I can submit it for the record, because I know I am out of 
time--but maybe we can work together on that. I will submit 
some questions about how we can work together.
    Commissioner O'Malley. I would very much like to do that. I 
think there might be some interchange here and some play with 
the kids aging out of foster care as well, and something the 
agency might be able to do more proactively.
    I also met recently with the State Treasurers of the 
Nation. They were in town 2 weeks ago here, and I met with them 
and had a lot of conversations. They take pride in 
administering the ABLE accounts and overseeing them, and so I 
think we need to do more of the ABLE accounts and less of the 
other sort of accounts.
    Senator Casey. Commissioner, thanks very much.
    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Commissioner O'Malley. Thank you.
    The Chairman. Thank you, Senator Casey, and good work for 
all those disabled kids all these years.
    Senator Tillis is next.
    Senator Tillis. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. O'Malley, 
Commissioner O'Malley, Martin, thank you. You know I supported 
your confirmation process, because you convinced me with the 
work that you have done as a public servant that you get it in 
terms of transformation.
    I have a really quick question for you. It has to do with 
funding. You and I talked about a version of this document 
[holding up a chart]. I think at one point we were saying maybe 
you ought to reverse the order, because this is probably a 
trend that bears repeating if you have already talked about it.
    This used to be pretty close to the service levels before 
you got whacked on funding, right?
    Commissioner O'Malley. Yes, sir.
    Senator Tillis. Okay.
    Commissioner O'Malley. Prior to 2018, we delivered.
    Senator Tillis. So, in a way, you kind of want to go back 
to the future. Talk a little----
    Commissioner O'Malley. Yes, sir. Nostalgia's not everything 
it used to be, but in our case it was.
    Senator Tillis. Yes. So, I mean--it really is. Are any of 
these service levels in the green here, where you want to get 
to, substantially different from when you had the funding 
streams to actually drive these service level outcomes? Are 
they roughly the same?
    Commissioner O'Malley. That is roughly where they were in 
2018.
    Senator Tillis. Okay. Tell me a little bit about--I like 
the control room that you have set up. Have you discussed with 
anybody what you are trying to do now, in terms of cadence and 
trying to affect transformation in Social Security?
    Commissioner O'Malley. Not yet here today. I would be glad 
to.
    Senator Tillis. Yes, could you run through it really 
quickly?
    Commissioner O'Malley. Yes; sure.
    Senator Tillis. And I know you were formerly a politician, 
so try to be brief. I've only got 3\1/2\ minutes.
    Commissioner O'Malley. Thank you; thank you. We have in 
essence, within 30 days of the New Year, actually on February 
5th, we launched and had our very first meeting of a new 
agency-wide performance management regimen we call 
SecurityStat.
    It is kind of like a doubleheader Monday, doubleheader 
Tuesday, and then the following week, two more meetings on the 
Monday, two more meetings on the Tuesday, and then we rinse and 
repeat.
    So we have created an agile every-2-week cadence, in a room 
a little smaller than this one. We have about 15 of the most 
relevant Deputy Commissioners around the table, and for 1 
blessed hour we lock the whirlwind outside, and we focus on 
field operations.
    We take a break, go across the hall to the follow-up room. 
We memorialize in the after-action report the things people 
agreed to get done within the next 2 weeks. One component might 
have lead--maybe the legal counsel has an answer she needs to 
run to ground in order for Policy to move and make a change.
    And then we go back across the hall and resume for the 
second hour. That focuses on HR. The next day, one solid hour 
on the 800 number, and so on.
    Senator Tillis. I like the framework. How have people 
reacted to it, because it's probably a little bit different 
framework than they have been accustomed to over the past few 
years?
    Commissioner O'Malley. It is very different in two 
respects. One is, we have all kind of fallen in, or maybe we 
have never gotten out of, the rut of annual budget cadence. You 
know, give me 1 percent improvement every year so we are not 
embarrassed at our budget hearing. So this is every 2 weeks--
every 2 weeks.
    The other way it is different is, there is a culture of, if 
you have an hour with the Commissioner, you want to fill that 
hour up with 60 slides. The last one you present in the final 
30 seconds, and then it says ``Any questions?'' So instead, we 
really use the data, the maps, and the latest emerging 
information shared by all.
    It's livestreamed to 220 members of the senior executive 
service throughout the country, and what we like to do--it is 
more like a jury. You know, you have about 15 people who focus 
on the latest evidence of how we are doing, what we are doing, 
and we ask the question, ``What are the actions we can take to 
get a better result by the time we are back here in 2 weeks? ''
    Senator Tillis. Give me an idea of what you have done to 
get out to the field, and what is the reaction there? I am 
assuming you have been out.
    Commissioner O'Malley. Yes, sir. Within the first month, in 
a 16-day period of time in the winter, I visited all nine 
regions. The Social Security Administration is divided into 
nine regions. So, every day was spent not only getting to know 
the command staffs of that region, not only doing a big town 
hall with employees listening, getting ideas, but sitting with 
people on the headset on the other end of the call from a 
customer or on the other side of the glass divider in the field 
office.
    I learned a lot, and we hit all of those, like I said, in 
the first week of January. It has made a big difference, 
because some of the best ideas came from people who have been 
doing the job in frustration, who felt like nobody was 
listening.
    Senator Tillis. That is good to hear.
    I am about out of time, but when can we expect going into a 
phase where you would present to the members--at least the 
Finance Committee, if not the members at large--what you found, 
what efficiencies you intend to drive out?
    You can provide that for the record if you have a project 
plan, and I had another question that I will just submit for 
the record in the interest of time.
    But thank you, and I believe that you just have to maintain 
that continuous feedback--get out there. And I also thank you 
for the policy that you have taken on having people come back 
to work.
    There are some people, I think, who have been misinformed, 
thinking that you have not sent that message. Half of success, 
or 90 percent of success is showing up, and I appreciate the 
fact that you are having your employees show up.
    Thank you, Mr. O'Malley.
    Commissioner O'Malley. Thank you.
    The Chairman. Thank you, Senator Tillis.
    Senator Warren?
    Senator Warren. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    So, when American workers pay for Social Security, I think 
they deserve to know that they are going to get the benefits 
that they earned. That is why President Biden and Democrats in 
Congress are fighting to protect and to enhance Social 
Security, funded by making the wealthy pay their fair share.
    But today I want to focus on an issue that does not get 
much attention, and that is State governments seizing Social 
Security benefits for foster youth, often with the help of 
predatory private contractors. Now, some people might say, 
``Wait a minute, you are talking about children getting Social 
Security.''
    Well, we have to remind people that half a million children 
are in the foster system, and some of these are children with 
disabilities who need extra care, which makes them eligible for 
Supplemental Security Income. And many foster children have 
lost a parent who had worked and paid into Social Security, 
which would make these kids eligible for survivor's benefits.
    Commissioner O'Malley, you have worked in government your 
whole life fighting for working families, and now you head up 
the Social Security Administration. Do you agree that when a 
parent dies, a child deserves and often desperately needs the 
Social Security benefits that their parent earned?
    Commissioner O'Malley. Absolutely.
    Senator Warren. Yes. So the law says that Social Security 
survivor's benefits must be used in the child's best interest 
for unmet needs, and yet, if that child is in foster care, 
their benefits may be seized by State agencies that are 
responsible for taking care of them.
    States, with a little help from the Federal Government, 
fund the foster care system, but dozens of States are now 
secretly screening the kids in their care to see if they would 
be eligible for Social Security benefits, sometimes even hiring 
data mining companies to try to identify targets and then 
funneling those Social Security benefits into State coffers to 
pay for anything from paper clips to prisons. In 2018 alone, 
States took at least $179 million from foster kids, and in many 
cases, these children did not even know that they were entitled 
to the money.
    Commissioner O'Malley, when I heard about this, I nearly 
fell out of my chair.
    Funneling a foster child's benefits into State coffers and 
not directing an additional cent toward improving that child's 
life, does that sound like it is meeting the legal requirement 
that those benefits be used in that child's best interests?
    Commissioner O'Malley. It certainly does not sound like the 
sort of policy outcome that any of us would like for kids in 
foster care, regardless of whether or not the law says legally 
they can.
    Senator Warren. All right. Well, I've got even a question 
about whether or not the law says they can.
    Commissioner O'Malley. Okay.
    Senator Warren. The law is very clear that those Social 
Security benefits are to be used for that child, you know, and 
these kids are not rich. Quite the opposite.
    A few hundred bucks a month could make a huge difference in 
the life of one of these children, to pay for trauma 
counseling, specialized tutoring, saving for college, saving up 
money for a down payment on an apartment, because they are 
going to get dropped from the system when they turn 18 and have 
nothing.
    So here is the good news, Commissioner O'Malley. SSA has 
the power to ban States from stripping away foster kids' earned 
benefits. So let me ask you, what are your plans to ensure that 
foster children's Social Security benefits are used for their 
own needs, rather than being siphoned off by agencies and for-
profit data mining companies?
    Commissioner O'Malley. Yes. We are taking another look at 
this policy. There are some 17 States, led by Maryland, that 
have either passed laws or are considering laws that would 
require a certain amount of those benefits be conserved for the 
child.
    There are probably a lot of States that would tell you that 
if a child is in foster care, they pay more than what the 
benefits are that that child is receiving. So they would argue, 
with their lawyers, that they are using it for care and 
maintenance, as indeed a grandmother or another family member 
might, for care and maintenance.
    But when we all know what terrible outcomes kids aging out 
of foster care have--and we know that at least for this portion 
of them who receive benefits, there is a better way--we should 
do what we must so that when that kid ages out of foster care 
having had benefits, that they are not just given a pat on the 
back and their clothes in a plastic bag when they turn 18.
    Senator Warren. Well, I appreciate your attitude on this. 
You know, seizing the benefits that go to some of our most 
vulnerable children, just to finance other parts of State 
government, just is not right. And I hope you will pick up all 
of the tools available to you at the Federal level to make sure 
that those kids get what their parents were promised back when 
their parents paid into the Social Security system.
    Commissioner O'Malley. I am looking forward to continuing 
to work with you on enacting some of this. You know, 34 of the 
States claim that they do conserve a portion of it. But we are 
about to find out exactly how true that is in the research that 
we are doing.
    Senator Warren. And remember, you've got the Federal power.
    Commissioner O'Malley. Yes.
    Senator Warren. Thank you.
    The Chairman. Senator Warren, my State, Oregon, has led the 
country in protecting these kids, and I understand our staffs 
are talking. So, we will follow that up promptly. It is a 
serious, serious problem for these kids.
    Senator Hassan is next.
    Senator Hassan. Well, thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Thank 
you, Commissioner O'Malley, for being here today.
    During your confirmation hearing in November, we discussed 
our shared concern over the high rate of agency error in the 
disability benefits determination process. I also understand 
that the agency is facing a significant backlog of claims, with 
more than a million initial disability claims pending, and the 
average claimant is waiting nearly 8 months for a decision. As 
you know, agency error and long wait times put already 
vulnerable individuals at increased risk.
    What actions have you taken to address these challenges 
since being confirmed, and what tangible progress can Congress 
expect during the coming year?
    Commissioner O'Malley. And, Senator, to understand the call 
of your question, when you say, ``agency error,'' do you mean 
with regard to payments, overpayments, underpayments, or in the 
decision itself?
    Senator Hassan. In the initial decision itself.
    Commissioner O'Malley. The Social Security Administration 
runs what I understand to be the largest public administrative 
adjudicatory body in the free world. There are several layers 
of appeals. The one where we are experiencing the most stress, 
the greatest backlog, and where we have suffered the greatest 
attrition and the greatest decline in average processing time 
is at the State DDSs.
    Some of them have as many as 30 percent, 40 percent fewer 
staff than they did before, and while we deploy other cadres 
from other parts of the agency to try to bail out those DDSs, 
it has been a real struggle. That is why, in the President's 
budget, we would allocate--I believe it is $2.6 billion to 
bring the staffing at those DDSs back up. That is the most 
important thing we can do.
    We also though have developed some technologies that allow 
us to do a much faster job of curating, searching, and making a 
determination on the relevant aspects of 1,000 pages of medical 
records. That should also shrink the time somewhat.
    Those are two of the most important things we are doing. I 
spoke before on the overpayment aspect. Maybe that plays in 
here, but the main challenge is that we have people just 
waiting too long for an initial disability determination. If 
you are unsuccessful at that initial determination, there is 
another appeal in the same State office for the same 220 days 
or more, and then there is an appeal to the ALJ hearing.
    Our desire, what we strive to do, is better and more 
accurate decisions right up front, rather than having to wade 
through the waterfall or have people delayed. If people should 
be on, we get them on, or if they should have an allowance, we 
should do that as early as possible, not as late as possible.
    I want to add just one thing. I know I am carving into time 
here, but it is inspiring what this agency does, for all of its 
understaffing and high workloads, to do the fast, compassionate 
allowances when people are really hurting. They do that and 
they take pride, and they do it silently; they do it quickly 
though, and they largely do it well for people most in need, 
within 30 days.
    Senator Hassan. Well, I appreciate that, and I know my 
constituent service staff would say that they have had some 
really good, constructive conversations and partnerships with 
people in your administration. But I do think that initial 
claim time is really, really important, and the longer it 
delays, the more it puts people who are very vulnerable and 
eligible at risk.
    I did want to turn to the overpayment and staffing issues, 
if I could. The next two questions I have are how your budget 
request can further the Social Security Administration's 
efforts to prevent those overpayments and improve customer 
service? Because compared to 1995, the Social Security 
Administration has currently about 50 percent more customers 
with fewer staff. This staffing shortage directly impacts 
customer service, as well as payment accuracy. How does the 
administration's budget request address the staffing needs at 
the Social Security Administration, and is there specific 
funding dedicated to reducing overpayments?
    Commissioner O'Malley. Senator, thank you. Yes. In the 
President's budget, we would propose using $269 million to 
increase front-line staffing, $79 million at the teleservice 
centers that suffer a 24-percent attrition rate, and also $85 
million to the processing centers.
    I mentioned, and as I said before--I might have misspoken--
the $2.6, $2.8 billion for the State DDSs. All of those, along 
with improvements to technology, will help us to do a better 
job of catching overpayments. As we have unpacked this issue of 
overpayments, we have come to the conclusion, based on the 
data, that we have not seen a big increase in the numbers of 
people who suffer an overpayment through no fault of their own, 
but because of our short staffing, it takes us longer to catch 
up with that overpayment, and so the amount they owe is higher 
by the time we take care of it. And each of those four areas I 
outlined are a piece of getting that time down.
    Ninety-two percent of Americans, when they are sent a 
notice that they have an overpayment, actually call us or go to 
their field office and say, ``People make mistakes; I will 
repay it. Let us work out something reasonable.''
    But for those 8 percent, we have been treating them in kind 
of a very heavy-handed and draconian way, with really bad 
consequences.
    Senator Hassan. And that needs to change. Thank you.
    Mr. Chair, a moment of personal privilege. The staff member 
sitting behind me, Abby Bronson, this is her last Finance 
hearing. She is going back to New Hampshire to work on housing 
policy, and I just want to thank her very much for her 
excellent work.
    The Chairman. Very good; thank you. Thank you for the good 
work as well.
    Senator Blackburn is next, and let the word go to the 
Democrats and Republicans, we are getting close to the end. The 
Commissioner has been very patient, so there may be Democrats 
and Republicans who wish to still ask questions.
    We will go with Senator Blackburn next, and then I will 
have a question or two. But we are going to get this wrapped up 
pretty quickly. So, Democrats and Republicans, come if you are 
so inclined.
    Senator Blackburn?
    Senator Blackburn. Well, thank you. Yes, thank you so much, 
and we appreciate the opportunity to have you before us, and to 
talk about the President's budget.
    One thing that I want to go to is the trust fund, and I 
know that the Social Security trust fund needs to be shored up. 
It is to be exhausted in 2033, and then what we have read is, 
CBO estimates that the program will pay a 75-percent benefit in 
2033.
    So, when you were before us previously, you refused to take 
a position regarding what policy options should be explored to 
shore up the Social Security trust fund. So I would like to 
know if you have settled on something. Have you made 
recommendations to the President? Why didn't we see those in 
the budget?
    Commissioner O'Malley. Well, Senator, I do not know that I 
so much refused to take a position, as I deferred to the fact 
that you are the power that gets to make that decision, not me. 
But the President has said many times that he believes once 
people make over $400,000, they should start paying into Social 
Security again.
    Others have had other times at which they believe that that 
should happen, and there are proposals out there. Your 
colleague from Rhode Island was just talking, before you came 
in, about those things. So I will work, and our Actuary will 
work confidentially, with any of you who want to look at the 
various dials, as Senator Cassidy describes them, that are 
necessary to be adjusted for long-term solvency of the system.
    It is true that we face, once again, a depletion event like 
we faced in 1982. It is coming on us faster, but that does not 
mean that there is not the will in this Congress to come 
together and push that out for another 75 years. The Actuary 
told me there were two things that messed them up that they did 
not account for.
    One was the breadth of the 2007 to 2010 recession. And he 
said the other thing that we did not account for was this: when 
President Reagan and Howard Baker and Tip O'Neill asked us to 
set a level for income, they said to capture 90 percent of 
earned income. But then tax reforms happened after that 1982 
fix, so they ended up only capturing 82 percent of earned 
income, because we were going with this notion that if you let 
wealth concentrate at the highest levels of our country, that 
will make the economy better.
    Agree or disagree with that, the mathematic effect on it 
was to move that depletion date from 2050 to 2034--2034 is the 
combined date. But that can also change. The new Actuary and 
trustees' report will come out within the next 30 days, and you 
know, we will of course share it with you.
    Senator Blackburn. Okay, that is good.
    Let me ask you this. Since you sit on the Board of Trustees 
for the fund and the discussions with the Board, what has been 
their approach to the solvency issue, because I know Senator 
Cassidy--he and I have talked a lot.
    There are things Congress will need to do. There are things 
the administration is going to need to do. So, as the Board of 
Trustees has looked at this, what has their approach to the 
solvency issue been?
    Commissioner O'Malley. Well, this will be my first meeting 
of that board. I understand through COVID, they generally got 
into a habit of kind of accepting the report on Zoom. That is 
not really the deliberative body, as I understand it.
    The Actuary is probably your best bet for sure of someone 
who can call balls and strikes and score various policy 
changes. But I do not believe we would ever meet to try to 
pretend that we are the policymaking body on that. That is your 
prerogative.
    But I really would love--nothing would make me happier 
during my time here than to be able to serve the members of 
this committee or Congress overall in achieving what Tip 
O'Neill and Ronald Reagan did in their own day.
    Senator Blackburn. Okay.
    There have been a couple of mentions of staffing shortages 
and processing times, and we have looked at that. I found it 
curious in the President's budget, he has a national paid leave 
program that he is planning to have run out of Social Security, 
and you have mentioned difficulty in meeting the workload.
    You have even had something, episodic telework, whatever 
that proposal is. But I would like for you to comment. Do you 
have the bandwidth to do a national paid leave program when 
your wait times have doubled since 2019?
    Commissioner O'Malley. We would have the bandwidth if it 
comes with the funding that I understand is in the bill. On our 
current staffing, no, we would not be able to do that. But if 
the additional funding that comes with that is there to 
administer it, we could.
    Senator Blackburn. And returning people to in-person work?
    Commissioner O'Malley. Yes. Let me talk about that a little 
bit. The episodic telework is a bit of a red herring. On 
February 2nd, I did an into-the-camera announcement to all of 
our staff and said, ``Look, you all, we are shifting now to 
core collaboration days.''
    What does that mean? In effect, that means I am in at work 
5 days a week, and the Commissioner's office is 4 days a week, 
1 of telework.
    The field offices have been open 5 days a week, 9 to 5, 
ever since COVID ended, and their balance is, an individual 
person is 3 days a week in the office greeting customers, 2 
days telework, where they get oftentimes a lot of their 
adjudicatory stuff done, the processing of the claims on the 
back end.
    And then in all of the regions, we also insisted that we be 
3 days in the headquarters, even if you are regional 
headquarters, and 2 days of telework. This episodic telework 
thing is in essence this. After I made that announcement, they 
said, ``Well, what if somebody has a sick kid? Are you saying 
that they cannot work from home when they have a sick kid, and 
they have to stay home with that child?''
    I said, ``Well, we're not monsters. We are human beings. 
So, of course they could do that episodic telework for a half-
day.'' Then our labor commissioner said to me, ``You know the 
unions, the organized workforce, are going to ask if they have 
it.'' ``Yes,'' I said, ``Don't they already?'' They said, ``No, 
they do not.'' I said, ``Well, that is silly.''
    I had heard--because I traveled all around the country and 
in all nine regions did town halls. There was a young dad, I 
forget now, in Kansas or San Francisco. He said, ``You know, I 
had a sick kid, had to get him to an emergency room, but my 
wife was coming off of her job at noon, and all I said to my 
boss was, `Could I have the morning off and come and give you a 
full shift in the afternoon in the teleservice center,' '' and 
she said, ``No, we do not do that.''
    And I said, ``Well, that is stupid.'' Don't we want more 
people on our phones when we are suffering from a staffing 
shortage, our lowest staffing in 27 years, with the highest 
number of beneficiaries? But the point of that is--and I'm 
unpacking that on your time--that we have shifted to more 
people on site, and that is across the country.
    The Chairman. This is an important issue, but we are just 
going to have to move on. And I look forward to talking with my 
colleague and the Commissioner.
    Senator Brown?
    Senator Brown. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Commissioner, thank 
you for being here, and thank you for your willingness to 
serve.
    Social Security is a solemn promise, as we know. People 
have paid into it all their lives, and deserve to know if the 
government will protect that promise. I know that it has been 
threatened by efforts to privatize and to raise the retirement 
age, and all the things that conservatives have done that don't 
serve the American public.
    I have heard a lot of concern in Ohio about Social Security 
overpayments. Chairman Wyden and Senator Casey and I sent a 
letter last fall to the Acting Commissioner, asking why so many 
people received overpayment notices in error, and what SSA will 
do to fix it. Ohioans should not pay the price, obviously, for 
the government's mistakes.
    I am pleased to hear about the steps you are taking in your 
first 90 days to reduce overpayments. I mentioned that to you 
in some of our private discussions. So, thank you for that, and 
we will continue to push on that and work on that.
    There are steps you, as a Commissioner, can take to reduce 
overpayments. There are steps that only Congress can take. I 
know you talked about bunt singles or something, as some 
Orioles fan might talk about. I know there is interest in both 
parties on this committee to work together to address the root 
causes of overpayments, so that benefits are administered 
accurately and efficiently.
    When you were here in November, you called the SSI asset 
limit a leading cause of overpayments. You added that it 
presented a significant administrative burden for SSA. Tell us 
why you think the current asset limit is a burden, both for you 
administering it and for beneficiaries?
    Commissioner O'Malley. The asset limit has not been raised 
for years and years. The asset limit is $2,000. SSI is about 4 
percent of our benefit outlays, but it accounts for 40 percent 
of our administrative work.
    That is because, as a means-tested program, we have to 
evaluate every month to make sure that no one in any given 
month goes over their allowable amount that they can have as 
assets in a savings account, or in earnings. So in essence, in 
the short term, if it were raised from $2,000 to $20,000, as 
your bill--and compliments and kudos to you and your Republican 
colleague, Senator Cassidy, for your efforts both in the Senate 
and the House, bicameral, bipartisan, to raise that.
    Now, you should be very proud of that. Hopefully it is the 
shape of more common-sense things to come. Eventually probably, 
as we make it less burdensome for people to apply to the 
program, more people will apply closer and closer to that 
$20,000-limit edge. But the short term will be that it should 
reduce the incidence and numbers of overpayments.
    Senator Brown. Thank you. And it is just so important when 
you meet--you know, one thing the chairman's really good at is 
putting human faces on this. I mean, it is easy to go back home 
and talk about statistics and this is not right, and that 
number should be here, and that cost-of-living adjustments 
should be built into it.
    But we did a little event outside the Capitol--back, it was 
a hot day, I remember, so it was maybe July or August into 
September--with a young woman from my State who wants to work, 
and she has worked as a greeter in a restaurant in Athens, OH, 
and she keeps bumping up against this asset limit.
    It makes no sense, and she is single. Raising it to $10,000 
would make a huge difference. I mean, that is why Senators 
Cassidy and Lankford and Casey and Hassan have all agreed to 
sign on to this. It is just something we've got to commit 
ourselves to do.
    I'm running over my time. What progress are you making to 
simplify the SSI application process?
    Commissioner O'Malley. That is kind of a white whale of our 
administrative pursuits. People have been saying--in fact, I 
wish I had a dime for every time a person said, ``I mean, why 
don't you just have TurboTax for SSI?'' It is a complex 
problem. There has been a lot of work done on simplifying it.
    We were talking earlier about the declining numbers of kids 
who apply for SSI. I mean, the end game--the Social Security 
Administration has been very slow to embrace digital 
technologies, communicating with people via phone and text. As 
a result, a lot of our so-called modernization efforts or 
simplification efforts are really about taking paper forms and 
turning them into online forms, which is not really 
simplification. It might be electrification, but it isn't 
simplification.
    So we need to be building toward the end state of not just 
simply putting forms with fewer questions on them online. We 
really need to simplify the program, we need to simplify 
communications to stay in compliance with the program, and I 
think our best bet for that is going to be digital and texting 
technologies.
    We are working on it. We are not there yet. A lot of the 
advocates did not like the first iteration we had because they 
thought it was exclusive. They believe we should make it 
simpler for everybody, not just for people who are wealthy and 
can afford to navigate something like that.
    Senator Brown. Well, we are going to keep watching. The 
Chair, the President of the Richmond Fed one time said, ``Keep 
watching what I am doing, and keep letting me know that you are 
watching me.'' And we will let you know regularly, white whale 
notwithstanding, that we are watching. Thanks.
    Commissioner O'Malley. Thank you, Senator, for your 
leadership on this and so many things.
    The Chairman. Thank you, Senator Brown. And you really have 
put a human face on this question of the asset limit, and I 
look forward to working with you to make sure this actually 
gets done.
    Commissioner, it has been a long afternoon. I want to ask 
you about something, the fancy word for it, apparently, is 
``effectuation.'' And I am going to kind of walk you through 
what we think it is, because when I heard about it, I said, ``I 
am going to bring this up with the Commissioner.'' This came 
up, you know, after we talked, so this is all kind of brand 
new.
    It seemed like it had been something more akin to a kind of 
secret backlog, and here is how it came to us. So, there is a 
period between the point at which Social Security awards 
benefits--and in effect gives a thumbs-up to a person--and when 
the benefit check is mailed or deposited in their account.
    Now, many of these, of course, are done very quickly, with 
no kind of fanfare or anything like that. But we have come up 
against people who have been waiting for months, and here is 
the case in Oregon.
    We helped a mom in Medford, OR with three kids who had been 
waiting for 8 months for her disability benefits. By the time 
she got her first payment, she had basically drained all of her 
savings and was at risk of losing her house.
    So, we have not gotten into this. I had never really heard 
the word ``effectuation,'' and you and I have talked a bunch of 
times about how government jargon kind of consumes so much of 
this.
    Back in the days when I ran the legal aid program for the 
elderly, I used to follow all this. But what can be done--and I 
recognize this is the first time it has been brought up. What 
can be done to get on top of this, so that people like the 
person we helped in Medford, OR are not going to be clobbered 
this way?
    Commissioner O'Malley. Yes, sir. When we talk about the 
backlogs at the processing centers--and those aspects of the 
President's budget that would allow us to bring down that 
backlog at the processing centers--I do believe that that is 
what you are hearing from people when they talk about 
effectuation, the time it takes to effectuation. They manage to 
survive and hang in there all the way through the hearing and 
appeals and everything else, and then they are drumming their 
fingers for another 5 months waiting for the backlog at the 
processing centers to clear.
    We have a big backlog at the processing centers, but there 
is no denying the fact that we have lost a lot of staff there 
as well. And that is why the President's budget is so important 
to get us back up to that level of customer service so you do 
not have these cases.
    The backlog, the processing backlog--we propose putting $85 
million to address the processing centers' backlog, which 
should help alleviate some of the waits that people experience 
in that. I am sure that there is probably more nuance to it, 
depending on what sort of effectuation it is.
    The effectuation for the retirees, as you mentioned, goes 
very quickly. Others are more complex. If it involves making a 
calculation in two programs, it can become even more complex 
than that. But it is that processing center backlog that we 
talked about earlier where the effectuations are most delayed.
    The Chairman. Well, with your lead, Mr. Commissioner, I 
will have our staff start talking to your staff. And look, you 
are making the case that a lot of people would be pretty 
skeptical that government can do smart stuff and government can 
do it well.
    And you have outlined a number of steps for us today, in 
response to questions from Democrats and Republicans here on 
the committee, that are going to set in motion--and you have 
done it in less than 100 days--some very substantial changes.
    So I want it understood that I think you are really off to 
a strong start in terms of righting wrongs. We have lots of 
stuff to do, and clearly trying to show that you are making a 
lot of progress is going to strengthen the hand of those of us 
who want to make sure you have the resources to do more and to 
get these policies up and running as quickly as possible. So we 
thank you.
    For the Senators, questions for the record have to be 
submitted by next Wednesday, March 27th, at 5 p.m.
    Commissioner, it has been a long afternoon. Thanks for your 
good work. Thanks for your patience in responding to all these 
questions.
    With that, the Finance Committee is adjourned.
    [Whereupon, at 4:39 p.m., the hearing was concluded.]

                            A P P E N D I X

              Additional Material Submitted for the Record

                              ----------                              


                Prepared Statement of Hon. Mike Crapo, 
                       a U.S. Senator From Idaho
    Thank you, Senator Wyden, and thank you, Commissioner O'Malley, for 
appearing before the committee this afternoon to discuss the 
President's Fiscal Year 2025 budget for the Social Security 
Administration.

    Commissioner O'Malley, during your nomination hearing, you 
committed to making customer service improvements at the SSA a top 
priority. During today's hearing, I look forward to hearing more about 
your approach to addressing SSA's ongoing challenges with wait times 
for the national 800 number; processing times for disability decisions 
and improper payments; the data and metrics you are looking at to 
evaluate your progress; and how the Biden administration's budget 
request for the SSA supports these efforts.

    Average wait times for the national 800 number have ticked down 
slightly over the last few months, but still remain above 30 minutes. 
After years of delays, the SSA has successfully transitioned its 
national 800 number to a new phone service platform. While the budget 
highlights the expected benefits of this new phone system, SSA must do 
more to ensure that future information technology projects make 
responsible use of taxpayer dollars by being delivered on time and on 
budget.

    Americans across the country continue to wait far too long to 
receive a disability decision from SSA. The President's budget proposes 
addressing these wait times through hiring and retaining State 
Disability Determination Services employees and seeking process 
efficiencies, including improved technology.

    The budget also highlights a proposed rule the agency claims would 
improve its disability adjudication process by reducing the number of 
years of past relevant work SSA considers when making disability 
decisions. While SSA's disability rules need revisiting, simplification 
should not always result in more mandatory spending. SSA should also 
focus on updating the outdated occupations list used in making 
disability decisions, to ensure the correct applicants are receiving 
benefits. SSA has already spent a substantial amount of time and 
resources on this update, and I urge you to stick to your commitment of 
making this update a high priority.

    During your nomination hearing, Senators on both sides of the aisle 
underscored the need for SSA to do more to reduce improper payments. 
Last month, SSA took an important step toward implementing the Payroll 
Information Exchange provision in the Bipartisan Budget Act of 2015. 
Once this new exchange is in place, it is expected to improve payment 
accuracy and reduce the self-reporting burden on beneficiaries.

    I also understand that SSA has been reviewing its policies and 
procedures to identify what more can be done to help prevent and 
address overpayments. I look forward to hearing more about these 
efforts today. As SSA continues this work, the agency must be careful 
to address the initial errors, not just waive the mistakes after they 
have occurred.

    While the President's budget includes operational requests for 
Congress to consider, it fails in addressing Social Security's long-
term solvency. The Social Security program provides benefits to 
millions of seniors, individuals with disabilities, and their families. 
We must ensure current beneficiaries and future generations will be 
able to depend on the program by addressing its financing shortfalls.

    The President's budget does not include any legislative proposals 
to back up his stated commitment to protect and strengthen Social 
Security. The solutions to preserving it are increasingly difficult as 
more time is wasted.

    Thank you again for being here today, Commissioner O'Malley, and 
thank you, Mr. Chairman.

                                 ______
                                 
              Prepared Statement of Hon. Martin O'Malley, 
              Commissioner, Social Security Administration
    Chairman Wyden, Ranking Member Crapo, and members of the committee, 
thank you for inviting me to discuss the Social Security 
Administration's (SSA's) service delivery, customer experience, and 
Fiscal Year (FY) 2025 budget request. I am Martin O'Malley, 
Commissioner of SSA, and I am deeply honored to be here today on behalf 
of the agency's thousands of skilled and dedicated employees.

    Social Security is the most far-reaching and important act of 
social and economic justice that the people of the United States have 
ever enacted, and it is the honor of a lifetime to answer the call to 
public service once more by leading SSA towards a better future. In 
particular, I pledged before this very committee to make improving 
SSA's customer service my top priority. With your consent, I was sworn 
in as Commissioner exactly 3 months ago today.

    It is my strong belief that the public deserves the highest level 
of customer service from their government. We owe it to every American 
to improve the customer service and support provided by Social 
Security, so people can get answers to their questions and get their 
benefit applications decided in a timely manner. These are your 
constituents, your neighbors, your friends, and your family. They have 
paid into the Social Security system, and that includes paying for 
adequate customer service from the agency.
                           the current state
Social Security Is Serving More Customers Than Ever Before With Fewer 
        Staff Than Ever Before

    By the end of FY 2024, SSA will serve over 7 million more 
beneficiaries with about 7,000 fewer full-time permanent staff when 
compared to FY 2015 (Figure 1). While modernization and other 
efficiencies have helped for some things, there is no way around the 
fact that the agency cannot keep doing more with less.

[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]


    SSA's budget was essentially level from FY 2018 through FY 
2021, while costs continued to increase. We had to make difficult 
decisions to cut funding in certain areas, such as staffing and 
overtime. As a result, we ended FY 2022 with our lowest staffing level 
in 25 years.

    With your support, we received a $785 million increase in FY 2023 
over FY 2022. We used that funding to begin to rebuild our workforce to 
better serve our customers and beneficiaries. Our staffing increased to 
nearly 60,000 at the end of FY 2023--still historically low, but better 
than the roughly 56,000 at the end of the prior year.

    Currently--due to the extended continuing resolution (CR) that we 
are under in FY 2024--we have stopped all hiring, and our staffing 
levels have already fallen below where they were in April of last year. 
If we continue this path of no hiring, we will fall to a new all-time 
low of around 55,000 full-time permanent staff by the end of this 
fiscal year--nearly 11 percent lower than the roughly 62,000 full-time 
permanent staff we averaged from 2010 through 2019.

    Similarly, the State Disability Determination Services (DDS) were 
able to make some progress increasing their staffing levels in FY 2023, 
following years of record-high attrition and a historically low 
staffing level in FY 2022. But in FY 2024, the DDS have quickly dropped 
below last year's staffing levels due to our pause in hiring given the 
funding level, which is leading to a severe setback in addressing a 
service delivery crisis.
SSA Has Extremely Low Operating Expenses
    Members may be surprised to learn that Social Security has now been 
reduced to operate on less than 1 percent of its annual benefit 
payments. This is extremely low--much lower than private insurance 
companies. For instance, Allstate operates on 19 percent of its annual 
benefit payments, and Liberty Mutual operates on nearly 24 percent of 
its annual benefit payments.

    Please know that I am not suggesting that this was something done 
knowingly and willingly to Social Security by members of Congress. 
However, Congress has not granted Social Security its own budget or 
appropriations hearing in 9 years.

    We can and must do better. We want to work with Congress to sustain 
the funding increases in the President's FY 2025 budget and beyond, to 
enable SSA to improve service levels and reduce wait times.

    Under the current system, Social Security's operating overhead, as 
a share of benefit outlays, has shrunk by 20 percent over the last 10 
years. A decade ago in FY 2015, Congress provided a funding level that 
represented 1.26 percent of benefit outlays for operating expenses 
(Figure 2). But the proportion has been shrinking over time, as our 
appropriated administrative expenses have not kept pace with the growth 
in our beneficiaries and benefit outlays. In FY 2023, it was down to 
1.01 percent, and under a full-year CR for FY 2024, it will drop under 
1.0 percent for the first time ever, to just 0.94 percent.
Our Service and Customers Are Suffering
    As a result of this historic underfunding and understaffing, Social 
Security faces a service delivery crisis. The situation is dire, and 
the public we serve is paying the price as they attempt to access the 
benefits that they have already worked their whole lives to earn. For 
example:

      Backlogs in the States continue to grow. Disability applicants 
are waiting on average nearly 8 months (228 days) for an initial 
decision and an additional 7 months (223 days) for those who request a 
reconsideration. However, for those applicants with the most severe 
health conditions, we award benefits in less than 30 days.

      People who try to reach us by phone are now waiting on hold for 
38 minutes or more on a dysfunctional 800 number system.

      And our agency has long strived to get the right amount to the 
right person at the right time, but struggles to catch erroneous 
overpayments in a timely manner, which can have damaging consequences 
for beneficiaries.

[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]


    But still, we do our very best every day to serve the highest 
number of beneficiaries we have ever served in the face of the lowest 
projected staffing levels in 27 years.
            how we're addressing the service delivery crisis
    As soon as I was sworn in 3 months ago, I announced my intent to 
focus the agency on three key service delivery challenges in 2024: 
disability determination wait times, national 800 number wait times, 
and overpayment and underpayment inequities.

    Since then, I have held countless briefings with executives and 
staff, met with labor partners and advocates, and most importantly, I 
have traveled to SSA's regions across the country to meet with and 
learn from the dedicated employees who are tirelessly serving members 
of the public each day in our offices and on our phones. I conducted 10 
town halls in headquarters and the regions where I was able to interact 
with about 2,000 employees. I visited field offices, hearing offices, 
processing centers, and teleservice centers. I sat in with call center 
representatives taking calls and sat side by side with claims 
specialists interacting with the public. I heard countless suggestions 
for improvements both big and small, some of which we are already 
beginning to implement. I also made an open call for employees to 
submit their ideas and insights for improving customer service, and so 
far, we have received nearly 3,000 submissions and counting. I am 
grateful to the dedicated SSA employees who took the time to submit 
their ideas, and I have begun to personally review and respond to as 
many as I can each week.

    Based on what I have learned from inside and outside of the agency, 
including conversations with employees and customers, I have 
implemented numerous changes to improve both our employees' experience 
and our customers' experience with us. I like to call these quick wins 
or low-hanging fruit--that is, things where we have the authority and 
the ability to act quickly and make immediate improvements, no matter 
how seemingly small.

    For example:

          During my visit, one employee in Boston identified the need 
        for a simple technology fix to create a ``no to all'' button 
        (similar to ``select all'') within the claims-taking process on 
        Supplemental Security Income (SSI) applications. By doing so, 
        we could reduce staff time in collecting information on 
        applicants' financial resources. We were able to implement this 
        fix within 4 weeks of first hearing the idea.

          Also based on an employee suggestion--this one from 
        Birmingham--we rolled out a nationwide expansion of a new 
        Automated Medicare Process (AMP) to improve back-end processing 
        for online Medicare claims. This will reduce processing time 
        from 7 minutes to 7 seconds, freeing up the equivalent of 
        around 40 people to do other critical pending work. In 1 week, 
        we implemented a fix that had been stalled since 2011.

          To further increase our ability to collaborate, engage, and 
        innovate across the agency, I announced an increase in on-site 
        presence at SSA's headquarters and regional offices, starting 
        April 7th. (SSA's field offices have been fully open to the 
        public since early 2022 and are not affected by this change.)

          Last month, we published formal notice of our plans to 
        access and use information from payroll data providers.\1\ This 
        long-awaited automated payroll information exchange (PIE) will 
        reduce wage-related overpayments by ensuring we receive timely 
        and accurate wage data. The notice is open for public comment 
        until April 15, 2024, and we encourage all interested parties 
        to submit comments.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \1\ SSA, ``Use of Electronic Payroll Data To Improve Program 
Administration.'' Federal Register, 89 FR 11773. February 15, 2024, 
https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2024/02/15/2024-02961/use-of-
electronic-payroll-data-to-improve-program-administration. See also: 
SSA, ``Social Security Publishes Proposed Rule for Payroll Information 
Exchange to Reduce Improper Payments,'' February 15, 2024, https://
www.ssa.gov/news/press/releases/2024/#2-2024-2.

          We are also working on three final rules that will simplify 
        and streamline the consideration of non-cash assistance within 
        the SSI program. By taking these actions, we will increase the 
        accessibility of this vital needs-based assistance, while also 
        decreasing overall processing time.
SecurityStat
    On February 5, 2024, we launched SecurityStat, standing biweekly 
leadership meetings to track and align on key performance outcomes 
across rotating challenges. Many of you have kindly sent your staff to 
observe this new way of doing business at SSA. Your attention, your 
interest, and the presence of your staff at our side have been more 
deeply appreciated than you can know.

    SecurityStat is based on the successes I had with CitiStat and 
StateStat in my prior roles. I have found in my past experience that a 
focus on data for all, combined with regular accountability and 
collaboration, helps to create a winnable game for employees and 
improve performance across the board, especially in large agencies. 
That is precisely what SecurityStat is about.

    The four central tenets of SecurityStat are: timely, accurate 
information shared by all; rapid deployment of resources; effective 
tactics and strategies; and relentless follow-up and assessment.

    SecurityStat is critical because the service delivery challenges 
that we face are cross-cutting. No one component of SSA, no matter how 
well-led, can solve any one of these problems by itself. Rather, we 
must work together across the agency in timely, agile, and 
collaborative ways as never before. SecurityStat provides a systematic 
and recurring method of doing that, by gathering the top leaders in a 
room together and engaging in data-driven performance management.

    So, every 2 weeks, in a rotating fashion, we gather together and 
focus intensely on the most important things SSA is charged with 
accomplishing for the American people and for you, their members of 
Congress. For 1 blessed hour every 2 weeks we focus, together, on each 
of eight key challenges:

          Field operations.
          Human Resources.
          National 800 number.
          Overpayments and underpayments.
          Disability determinations.
          Disability hearings.
          Fraud.
          Notices.

    On an encouraging note, I have found that there is a certain muscle 
memory at SSA. The senior executives and front-line managers have 
responded very positively to this newer, faster cadence of 
collaboration and accountability.

    On the first Monday of the SecurityStat rotation, we begin by 
focusing on field operations--the more than 1,200 field offices, 8 
processing centers, and 24 teleservice centers that make this agency 
go. We discuss ways to reduce the attrition rates that plague the 
agency, currently 10 percent in the field offices and 22 percent among 
the staff answering the phones on the national 800 number. We discuss 
ways to improve performance and service delivery even in a reality 
where customers keep increasing and staffing keeps declining. Then, we 
focus on the flip side of service delivery--the human resources of the 
skilled and trained employees necessary for us to serve the American 
people even as we labor under a total hiring freeze.

    On Tuesday mornings in the first weekly rotation, we turn first to 
Social Security's national 800 number. Average wait times for customers 
trying to reach us by phone have skyrocketed to 38 minutes today, 
nearly double the FY 2019 wait time of 20 minutes. Five to 7 million 
people call our 800 number every month, and about 4 million of them 
hang up in disgust after waiting far too long. This year was the 35th 
anniversary of our 800 number, and it was a challenging one thanks to a 
woefully underperforming phone system that has fallen far short of our 
expectations. Under the current technology, our managers have no 
visibility into the work being done, and call-takers have no view into 
the customers who pop up onto their screen. In addition to the 
technology shortcomings, we are struggling now with a 22-
percent attrition rate in our teleservice centers and among other staff 
answering the phones. All options are on the table as we do everything 
in our power to reduce unacceptably long wait times being endured by 
our customers.
Overpayments and Underpayments
    In the second topic of our first Tuesday rotation, we turn to 
overpayments and underpayments. For 88 years, the hardworking employees 
of the Social Security Administration have strived to pay the right 
amount, to the right person, at the right time. And the agency has done 
this with a high degree of accuracy over a massive scale of 
beneficiaries; our overall accuracy rates are 99.34 percent for Social 
Security and 90.80 percent for SSI based on our stewardship reviews.\2\ 
In fact, one of the unsung stories of heroism in our Nation's battle 
against the COVID-19 pandemic was SSA's Herculean accomplishment of 
cranking out those checks to protect beneficiaries' income and health 
care during a critical time in the pandemic.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \2\ See PaymentAccuracy.gov. These overall accuracy figures 
consider both overpayments and underpayments for FY 2022, the most 
recent data available.

    But despite our best efforts, we sometimes get it wrong and pay 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
beneficiaries more than they are due, creating an overpayment.

    When that happens, Congress requires that we make every effort to 
recover those overpaid benefits. But doing so without regard to the 
larger purpose of the program can result in grave injustices to 
individuals, as we see from the stories of people losing their homes or 
being put in dire financial straits when they suddenly see their 
benefits cut off to recover a decades-old overpayment, or disability 
beneficiaries attempting to work and finding their efforts rewarded 
with large overpayments. Innocent people can be badly hurt. And these 
injustices shock our shared sense of equity and good conscience as 
Americans.

    We are continually improving how we serve the millions of people 
who depend on our programs, although we have room for improvement, as 
media reports last fall revealed. We have also embarked upon a deep 
dive into the extent of the overpayment problem at Social Security, the 
root causes of these administrative errors, and the steps we can take 
as an agency to address these individual injustices.

    Our deeper understanding of the complexities of this problem has 
set us on the following course of action:

        1.  Starting next Monday, March 25th, we will be ceasing the 
        heavy-handed practice of intercepting 100 percent of an 
        overpaid beneficiary's monthly Social Security benefit by 
        default if they fail to respond to our demand for repayment. 
        Moving forward, we will now use a much more reasonable default 
        withholding rate of 10 percent of monthly benefits (but not 
        less than $10 per month)--similar to the current rate in the 
        SSI program.

        2.  We will be reframing our guidance and procedures so that 
        the burden of proof shifts away from the claimant in 
        determining whether there is any evidence that the claimant was 
        at fault in causing the overpayment.

        3.  For the vast majority of beneficiaries who request to work 
        out a repayment plan, we recently changed our policy so that we 
        will approve repayment plans of up to 60 months. To qualify, 
        Social Security beneficiaries would only need to provide a 
        verbal summary of their income, resources, and expenses, and 
        recipients of the means-tested SSI program would not need to 
        provide even this summary. This change extended this easier 
        repayment option by an additional 2 years (from 36 to 60 
        months).

        4.  And finally, we will be making it much easier for overpaid 
        beneficiaries to request a waiver of repayment, in the event 
        they believe themselves to have been without any fault and/or 
        without the ability to repay.

    Implementing these policy changes--with proper education and 
training across the people, policies, and systems of the agency--is an 
important but complex shift. And we are undertaking that shift with 
urgency, diligence, and speed.

    There are some changes that can only be effectuated by the will and 
good judgment of Congress. I look forward to working with members to 
discuss ideas that could address the root causes of overpayments.

    In addition to our focus on overpayments, we are also working to 
increase our processing of SSI underpayments, particularly for the 
oldest and highest-priority cases. As of March 11th, we have processed 
46,319 underpayments and released approximately $120 million this 
fiscal year to our customers with these aged and priority 
underpayments. And we are on track to complete 98 percent of these 
underpayments by the end of FY 2025.
SecurityStat, Continued

    As we continue our SecurityStat rotation into the second week, on 
Mondays we focus first on the shamefully long time that it now takes 
for State DDSs to make an average initial disability determination. Ten 
years ago, when our appropriations represented a larger share of our 
annual outlays, we were able to make these needed determinations in 110 
days. But today, operating on less than 1 percent of annual outlays, it 
takes our DDSs an average of 228 days to make the same initial 
determinations (Figure 3). We have the longest average processing time 
and the highest number of pending cases ever in the history of our 
disability program for initial claims.

    In other words, disability applicants are waiting on average nearly 
8 months (228 days) for an initial decision and an additional 7 months 
(223 days) for those who request a reconsideration. We must do better, 
and our long-term goal is to reduce those waits to 4 months (120 days) 
each.

[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]


    At the next level of appeal, disability applicants who have 
requested a hearing with an administrative law judge (ALJ) currently 
face an average wait time of 365 days--a whole year--to get a decision. 
We continue to work toward our goal of issuing hearings decisions 
within 9 months (270 days) on average.

    On Tuesdays of the second week of the SecurityStat rotation, we 
focus with the Office of Inspector General at the table on fraud and 
the tactics and strategies we can take, together, to get inside the 
turning radius of the bad actors. Following the fraud stat, we focus 
for 1 hour, as a group, on what we can do to reduce the number, 
expense, and confusion we inflict upon our customers through long and 
impossible-to-understand notices.

    So that is how we spend our weeks fighting to serve an all-time 
high number of customers with a 27-year low in staffing. Our duty is to 
serve the people who depend on the benefits they have earned through 
Social Security.

    I remain encouraged that the overwhelmed, hardworking, exhausted 
men and women on the frontlines of this agency--those who haven't quit 
to find less stressful or higher paying jobs elsewhere in the Federal 
Government or beyond--still wake up every day to serve their country by 
serving their neighbors.
Our FY 2025 Budget
    I am confident that with the rapid cadence of accountability and 
collaboration that SecurityStat provides, and continuous solicitation 
of areas for improvement from employees and customers, we will begin to 
make forward progress. But we cannot do it alone; we need your help to 
ensure we have the necessary funding and staffing.

    As the Mayor of a cash-strapped city and then a recession-era 
Governor, I'm quite familiar with operating on tight budgets. I also 
spent nearly a year intensely studying SSA materials from the outside 
before my confirmation. Even with all of that, SSA's budget is far more 
dire than I thought. Years of underfunding have decimated our staffing 
levels and therefore also our ability to serve the public.

    Coming off a challenging budget year in FY 2024, it is critical 
that we receive adequate funding in FY 2025. Approval of the FY 2025 
President's budget request of $15.4 billion for SSA would allow us to 
begin making progress toward improving customer service.

    We know that additional funding makes a difference. The U.S. 
Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) received an infusion of funding and 
increased its satisfaction and trust among veterans from 50 percent to 
nearly 80 percent. The Internal Revenue Service (IRS) used additional 
funding to reduce its call wait times from 30 minutes to 4 minutes. SSA 
was able to dig out of the initial disability claims backlog during the 
Great Recession with significant funding provided through the American 
Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009. I am confident we can do it 
again, but it will take sufficient funding, just as it did for IRS and 
VA.

    Under the FY 2025 President's budget, we would be able to restore 
staffing to FY 2023 levels and begin to improve our service delivery. 
The budget supports an infusion of staff in our teleservice centers to 
significantly reduce 800 number wait times, to 12 minutes in FY 2025. 
The budget will also expand staffing and overtime in the DDSs, yielding 
an expected 185,000 more initial disability claims processed and over 
100,000 more reconsiderations than we estimate processing in FY 2024. 
We will focus on those customers waiting the longest for a decision, 
which will pave the way for dramatic improvements in average processing 
time. The budget also includes the resources needed to reduce the 
hearings backlog and prevent its recurrence as we work down the initial 
claims backlog.
                             in conclusion
    The American people worked their whole lives to earn the benefits 
of Social Security--and those benefits include the right to an 
appropriate level of customer service. I have every confidence that a 
restoration of service levels at Social Security--here and now--will 
produce a dividend of trust for generations to come.

    Let me say, finally, on behalf of the agency, how grateful I am for 
the funding level proposed in the FY 2025 President's budget. This 
additional funding will be a huge help in our mission to provide the 
American people with a level of customer service for which they've 
already paid, but have in recent years consistently been denied.

    I look forward to answering your questions.

    And it is my great honor to serve the people of our republic in my 
capacity as their Commissioner of Social Security.

                                 ______
                                 

                     Social Security Administration

                  A Path to Improve Customer Service 
                       Today and Into the Future

                                                         March 2024

[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
                                 
       Questions Submitted for the Record to Hon. Martin O'Malley
                 Questions Submitted by Hon. Ron Wyden
    Question. At the time of this hearing, SSA was operating under a 
hiring freeze due to flat funding and was at risk of losing 5,000 
employees by the end of FY 2024.

    How do hiring freezes or hiring restrictions impact customer 
service?

    Answer. The inability to hire degrades our customer service in key 
areas such as telephone service, the time it takes to get an 
appointment, and claims processing times.

    Question. Unfortunately, it is not the first time Congress was 
unable to pass a full-year spending bill and instead enacted continuing 
resolutions with little or no changes to funding levels.

    Please provide all instances of SSA or government-wide hiring 
freezes or restrictions due to insufficient funding. For each instance, 
please include impacted components and positions and their respective 
role in customer service.

    Answer. For each of the last 12 fiscal years, we had either a 
hiring freeze or restricted hiring. For each year from FY 2013 through 
FY 2018, the freezes were mainly related to starting each fiscal year 
under a continuing resolution (CR), which restricts our ability to hire 
and often results in a full or partial hiring freeze. Additionally, in 
FY 2017, there was a government-wide hiring freeze, which was 
implemented by the President, which lasted from January through April.

    From FY 2019 to FY 2022, our staff components were frozen to 
dedicate all hiring to front-line positions.

    In FY 2023, while we had significant hiring due to a $785-million 
increase in our appropriation, we had to significantly reduce these 
efforts starting in June due to spending limits prescribed in the 
Fiscal Responsibility Act of 2023. Although we did not have a freeze in 
FY 2023, there was a significant reduction in the number of hires that 
were authorized.

    These limitations impact all of SSA's components. However, the 
biggest impact generally affects our front-line operational positions 
who provide direct public service.

    Question. As you may know, the Social Security Advisory Board 
published a report in February 2024 examining the agency's effectuation 
process, focusing on SSDI and SSI awards. The report found significant 
variances in processing time based on the type of benefit and the stage 
in which the claim was awarded. The report also noted data limitations 
in SSA's 2020 public use file version of the Disability Analysis File 
which restricted further investigation.

    In its October 2022 report to Congress, SSA did not distinguish 
among SSI-only, SSDI-only, and concurrent claims. Please provide a 
table of effectuation time by claim title and award level (initial, 
reconsideration, ALJ, appeals council, Federal court) for each fiscal 
year from 2019-2023 and FY 2024 year to date.

    Answer. We do not have the requested information due to systems 
limitations that do not allow for that type of analysis.

    Question. Please describe any differences in the effectuation 
process between claims awarded after Federal court remand are 
effectuated and other claims. How does SSA track effectuation time for 
Federal court remands? Does SSA have any plans for improving the speed 
of effectuation for these cases?

    Answer. Our analysis finds there are generally no differences in 
the effectuation process between claims awarded after Federal court 
remand and other disability claims. Once federally remanded claims are 
approved by SSA's Appeals Council or an administrative law judge, they 
are transferred to the effectuation component (field office or 
processing center depending on claim type) and tracked locally to 
develop the nonmedical factors and determine eligibility and payment 
amounts.

    In addition to our recent agency accomplishments,\1\ and as 
outlined in our FY 2024 SSA Action Plan,\2\ we are continuing to 
identify ways to optimize our internal and external processes, which 
would improve claims effectuation. For example, we are working to 
strengthen employee training, streamline technician tools, expand 
digital submission channels, and improve our notice clarity.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \1\ https://www.ssa.gov/agency/commissioner/100-days-
accomplishments.html.
    \2\ https://www.ssa.gov/agency/materials/ssa-action-plan-2024.pdf.

    Question. When considering cases that take a long time to 
effectuate, are there any patterns by case characteristics? Has SSA 
analyzed its case flow to identify potential sources of process 
backlogs or inefficiencies? What is SSA doing to improve effectuation 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
time and accuracy for those claims?

    Answer. Cases that take longer to effectuate generally have a 
longer look-back period--say, the preceding 24 instead of 12 months--
for our employees to obtain and review necessary evidence from the 
beneficiary and other sources, as appropriate. Some claims are complex 
requiring manual actions like windfall offset calculations, multiple 
systems inputs and coordination across field offices and processing 
centers to determine eligibility and payment amounts. Additionally, the 
claimant may have moved making it difficult to reach them.

    As noted in our response to the previous question, we are working 
to strengthen employee training, streamline technician tools, expand 
digital submission channels, and improve our notice clarity.

    Question. What information does SSA collect about the time it takes 
different processing centers to effectuate claims? Please share any 
information for the past 3 fiscal years.

    Answer. We track the percentage of disability claims processed 
timely meaning they were effectuated prior to the first payment being 
due or within 16 days of receipt by the processing centers (PCs). Below 
is a table reflecting PC timeliness for the past 3 fiscal years.


                    SSA Disability Claims Timeliness
------------------------------------------------------------------------
     SSA Processing Center (PC)         FY 2021     FY 2022     FY 2023
------------------------------------------------------------------------
PC 1 Northeastern                          92.2        92.2        92.0
------------------------------------------------------------------------
PC 2 Mid-Atlantic                          94.8        96.2        95.4
------------------------------------------------------------------------
PC 3 Southeastern                          94.3        93.0        91.8
------------------------------------------------------------------------
PC 4 Great Lakes                           91.6        90.3        89.7
------------------------------------------------------------------------
PC 5 Western                               91.5        92.3        91.9
------------------------------------------------------------------------
PC 6 Mid-America                           93.3        94.1        94.0
------------------------------------------------------------------------
PC 7 Disability Operations                 90.4        93.1        92.2
------------------------------------------------------------------------
PC 8 Earnings and International            93.1        87.0        91.7
 Operations
------------------------------------------------------------------------
All PCs                                    92.4        93.0        92.4
------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Question. SSA's October 2022 report to Congress and the FO2 time 
metric both measure from the date of the award of benefits to when the 
awardee is put into pay for monthly benefits. What management 
information does SSA have on when awardees receive lump-sum retroactive 
benefits (or, in the case of large underpayments of SSI, the first 
installment of retroactive benefits)? Does SSA have plans to collect or 
publish more data on payment of retroactive benefits?

    Answer. We track how long SSI underpayments are pending. Our 
underpayment accuracy rates are high: our internal quality reviews, 
which a third-party auditor validates, indicate that 91.98 percent of 
all SSI payments were free of overpayments, and 98.82 percent were free 
of underpayments in FY 2022. For FY 2024-2025, we have established a 
new priority goal to increase underpayment processing of our oldest and 
highest priority cases,\3\ including those disproportionately impacted 
by poverty. Through August, we processed 93,000 underpayments and 
released approximately $245 million this fiscal year to our customers 
with these aged and priority underpayments. We are on track to complete 
our goal of 98 percent of these underpayments by the end of FY 2025.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \3\ Per our Updated 2023 Agency Equity Action Plan (https://
www.ssa.gov/equity/assets/materials/2023.pdf), these priority cases 
fall into one of the following categories: dedicated accounts with 
pending payments on a current or prior record, uncashed checks, pending 
payments over $5,000, and pending payments on a prior record including 
potential payments to an authorized representative.

    We are also working to improve our data on underpayments to inform 
additional opportunities to expedite processing. For example, we are 
focusing on processing SSI underpayments that meet our criteria for 
exceptions to installment payments such as individuals who are 
terminally ill. As we improve the quality of our underpayment data, we 
will assess opportunities to collect and publish data on payment of 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
retroactive benefits.

    Question. Is SSA considering adding Representative Call Centers at 
PCs that currently do not have them? What factors are involved in SSA's 
decision-making on this topic?

    Answer. Yes, we are exploring the feasibility of adding 
Representative Call Centers at PCs that do not currently have them, and 
considering key factors like staffing availability and workload 
considerations.

    Additionally, we updated our Appointed Representatives Services 
(ARS)\4\ application to allow appointed representatives to access a 
list of all their pending cases, electronically, in real time, and to 
know if their SSA Form--1696 (Claimant's Appointment of 
Representative)\5\ was processed without having to resubmit the form or 
contact our offices for status.
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    \4\ https://www.ssa.gov/ar/.
    \5\ https://www.ssa.gov/forms/ssa-1696.pdf.

    Question. Please provide data for each of the past 3 fiscal years 
on the number and percentage of SSI claims where a full claim was taken 
(also called ``simultaneous development'') that were awarded in 120 
days or less, 121-150 days, 151-180 days, and 181 days or more. If 
possible, please provide both national figures and data for each DDS. 
Does SSA have any initiatives or plans to identify claims that 
underwent simultaneous development and are approaching 120 days since 
application in hopes of obtaining a decision quickly enough that a Pre-
Effectuation Review Contact (PERC) is unnecessary? Has SSA considered 
whether 120 days is an appropriate threshold, or are there any plans to 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
do so?

    Answer. We do not have the requested data, due to systems 
limitations. However, we want to note that SSI claims that require 
simultaneous development (i.e., a full claim), such as claims involving 
Quick Disability Determinations and Compassionate Allowances, are fast-
tracked for expedited effectuation.

    Additionally, we are evaluating what the appropriate threshold 
should be.

    Question. Is SSA familiar with the issue of ``phantom'' windfall 
offsets, described by the SSAB as ``situations where the SSI portion of 
a concurrent claim was denied, but the DI effectuator does not act 
because they are waiting for SSI effectuation''? What information does 
SSA have about the extent of this issue, and what plans does the agency 
have to improve effectuation of such claims? Has SSA considered 
returning to the agency's previous policy of allowing staff to delete 
offset coding in MCS before adjudicating claims, and what 
considerations would be needed to ensure payment accuracy if this were 
permitted?

    Answer. Yes, we are familiar with situations when the SSI portion 
of a concurrent claim was denied, and technicians must update the 
record indicating windfall offset does not apply. We have updated our 
systems so technicians can make inputs to delete the offset coding in 
the Modernized Claims System (MCS) before adjudicating the claim to 
release the title II retroactive benefits when windfall offset does not 
apply. We also have mechanisms in place to alert our employees to 
update the record. However, this process may involve coordination 
across our field office and PC jurisdictions. We will continue to work 
to improve complex workloads like windfall offset though training and 
automation, wherever possible.

    Question. Does SSA plan to update its Fiscal Year 2024 and/or FY 
2025 Agency Priority Goals to include improvements to the disability 
effectuation process? If so, what are those goals?

    Answer. We do not plan to update our FYs 2024-2025 Agency Priority 
Goals (APG) \6\ to include improvements to the disability effectuation 
process.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \6\ https://www.performance.gov/agencies/ssa/apg/fy-24-25/.

    However, one of our current APGs focuses on improving initial 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
disability processing time, and to help achieve our goal we are:

          Implementing the Past Relevant Work rule \7\ to reduce from 
        15 to 5 the years of work we consider in making disability 
        determinations;
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \7\ Federal Register: Intermediate Improvement to the Disability 
Adjudication Process, Including How We Consider Past Work, https://
www.federalregister.gov/documents/2024/04/18/2024-08150/intermediate-
improvement-to-the-disability-adjudication-process-including-how-we-
consider-past-work.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
          Restoring a pre-2018 policy, known as Collateral Estoppel, 
        to allow technicians in local offices to apply a prior 
        determination of disability;
          Implementing regulations to streamline what we count as 
        income for calculating SSI eligibility and payments;
          Raising the fee cap for claimants' representatives to remove 
        a potential barrier for people looking for quality 
        representation; \8\ and
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \8\ Federal Register: Maximum Dollar Limit in the Fee Agreement 
Process, https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2024/05/10/2024-
10248/maximum-dollar-limit-in-the-fee-agreement-process.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
          Implementing a final rule,\9\ which provides a reliable 
        method for us to directly pay authorized appointed 
        representative fees to affiliated entities.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \9\ Federal Register: Changes to the Administrative Rules for 
Claimant Representation and Provisions for Direct Payment to Entities, 
https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2024/08/21/2024-18497/
changes-to-the-administrative-rules-for-claimant-representation-and-
provisions-for-direct-payment-to.

These improvements will help lessen the administrative burden for 
claimants, representatives, and SSA employees, and reduce the time it 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
takes to process disability claims.

    Question. The report identified document submission and processing 
as a particular pain point of the effectuation process is collecting 
similar or the same type of information during the claims process. It 
seems that SSA's eSubmit program would help reduce some of the 
administrative burden for SSA and its customers. Has SSA considered 
expanding eSubmit's use to allow awardees and their representatives to 
submit documents electronically during the effectuation process?

    Answer. Yes, we plan to expand Upload Documents (formerly eSubmit) 
to allow claimants and third parties to initiate submissions. We are 
also reviewing additional forms for inclusion, which could account for 
over 3 million form submissions each year.

    Currently, Upload Documents is available to local offices and 
Workload Support Units nationwide (about 28,000 employees). Upload 
Documents allows claimants to upload 50 forms \10\ and 77 different 
types of evidence, upon technician request--allowing us to more 
efficiently develop the claim. Additionally, this year, we also removed 
the signature requirement entirely for 13 of our most commonly used 
forms, totaling about 1 million submissions annually.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \10\ We also released three fillable webforms: the SSA-827 
(Authorization to Disclose Information to the Social Security 
Administration); the SSA-25 (Certificate of Election for Reduced 
Spouse's Benefits); and the SSA-795 (Statement of Claimant or Other 
Person).

    Question. In 2017, SSA revised its rules related to the submission 
of medical evidence (Revisions to Rules Regarding the Evaluation of 
Medical Evidence, 82 FR 5844). Among several changes, the Final Rule 
eliminated SSA's longstanding recognition that evidence provided by 
medical providers who have examined and treated the claimant is 
generally of a higher value than medical opinions issued by those who 
have never examined the claimant or have only examined them briefly. In 
an October 28, 2016 public comment letter to SSA, I warned that the 
rule would ``increase delays, as claimants and their representatives 
would be forced to file additional appeals in order to have the 
evidence appropriately considered.'' Rather than recognizing the 
probative value of evidence by the claimant's treating physician, DDS 
examiners may deem the evidence insufficient and instead request a 
consultative examination, increasing processing costs and further delay 
the claim's processing time. At a time when over 1.1 million cases are 
pending at the initial level and staffing shortages at the DDS level, 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
it may be appropriate to revisit this rule.

    Has SSA studied to determine whether these rules increased the 
quality and completeness of disability claims, and whether it 
contributed to processing times? If so, what were study's findings?

    Answer. We have not conducted a study, like you describe, at the 
initial and reconsideration levels of disability claims. However, we 
are currently studying how administrative law judges apply this rule at 
the hearing level.

    Question. In 2018, SSA announced that it would end the 20-year-long 
pilot of eliminating the reconsideration step in the 10 ``prototype'' 
States. At the time, SSA stated it was reinstating the step to provide 
policy uniformity and cost savings. It also noted that reinstating 
reconsideration would increase wait times for five times more claimants 
than it will help, extending wait times by an average of 100 days. At 
the time, SSA provided my office data that in 2017, approximately 
106,000 Americans were denied at the reconsideration step. Of those, 
7,500--or 7 percent--would have been awarded benefits had they not 
given up on the process. With an average agree rate of nearly 90 
percent, it appears that the step does not provide additional value to 
the claimant by adding an additional 200 days before it can appear 
before an administrative law judge.

    It is also unclear whether restoring reconsideration improved 
processing times or generated cost savings in the protype States. In 
2018, then-Acting Commissioner Kilolo Kijakazi notified Congress that 
she was putting together an executive-led cross-agency work group 
charged with identifying and testing processes designed to enhance the 
reconsideration step. To date, SSA has not provided a report on 
agency's findings regarding the elimination of the reconsideration 
step, or the work group's recommendations to enhance or otherwise 
reform reconsideration.

    Please provide a report to the committee of SSA's findings on 
eliminating the reconsideration step. The report should include average 
processing times for initial claims for States in which the 
reconsideration step was eliminated, and processing times in States 
that kept the reconsideration appeals step.

    Answer. See table.

     Initial Overall Average Processing Time, FY 2017-FY 2023 (Days)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
                   2017    2018    2019    2020    2021    2022    2023
------------------------------------------------------------------------
National           110.5   111.4   120.2   131.0   165.0   184.3   217.5
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Non-Prototype *    111.4   111.8   120.5   130.5   166.7   189.8   225.9
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Prototype *        107.6   106.7   115.3   127.8   157.2   161.6  183.3
------------------------------------------------------------------------
* Please note the above numbers breaking out prototype from non-
  prototype States do not include the State of California. Two offices
  in California participated in the prototype, but they also continued
  to assist other California DDS offices and conducted many
  reconsiderations. Our data does not capture assistance provided within
  a given State, so including the California data in those categories
  could skew the data.


    Question. Please provide the number of claims in which a DDS 
examiner requested additional medical evidence or requested a CE, or 
the claimant submitted additional medical evidenced.

    Answer. In general terms, approximately 88 percent of initial 
disability claims processed in a given year require at least one piece 
of medical evidence (MER), and 39 percent of them require at least one 
CE, in addition to any evidence applicants provided with their initial 
claims. Last year there were approximately 1.7 million initial claims 
requiring MER and 739,000 claims requiring a CE.

    At the reconsideration level, approximately 80 percent of 
reconsiderations processed in a given year require at least one piece 
of MER and 24 percent of them has at least one CE request. Last year, 
there were approximately 387,000 reconsideration cases requiring MER 
and 113,000 claims requiring a CE.

    Our data do not capture whether additional medical evidence is 
submitted without a specific request from the DDS, so we cannot provide 
that information.

    Question. Please provide the number and percentage of claimants who 
chose not to pursue further appeals after the reconsideration level of 
appeal.

    Answer. From FY 2020 to FY 2023, approximately 176,000 (10 percent) 
of reconsideration-level denials were not appealed to the hearing 
level.

    Question. Please provide the estimated cost.

    Answer. At my confirmation hearing, I promised to conduct a deep 
dive on the disability programs and agreed to release a report on the 
reconsideration step after 6 months in office. We shared this report 
with your committee on July 2, 2024, which provided these cost 
estimates.

    The report did not include the other items you requested above. 
Therefore, we addressed those items above.

    Question. Today, over 1 million Americans are waiting for a 
decision from Social Security on their disability benefit application. 
I know there are several factors that contribute to the backlog, but 
there are things the agency can do to cut red tape so Americans won't 
have to wait eons for a decision.

    If SSA receives the President's requested funding levels, what 
changes would we see to reduce the current backlog and prevent future 
backlogs from occurring?

    Answer. The President's requested funding would allow us to 
increase staffing in our field offices (FOs), processing centers (PCs), 
and State Disability Determination Services (DDSs). The compounding, 
synergistic effect of the multiple tactics now deployed and planned to 
attack the DDS backlog cannot be calculated with probabilistic 
accuracy. But the anticipated increase in staffing would reduce our 
initial disability claims wait times to an average of 215 days, thereby 
reducing our claims backlog by 15 percent. For example:

          $2.8 billion of the proposed funding would be used for 
        payroll, hiring, workload processing costs, and other expenses 
        in the State DDSs to support reducing the initial disability 
        claims backlog. To address the large backlog of initial 
        disability claims in FY 2025, the proposed funding expands 
        processing capacity at the DDS offices by allowing DDSs to hire 
        about 2,900 people.
          $269 million of the proposed funding would restore staffing 
        in our FOs to our Fiscal Year 2023 levels. This would allow the 
        FOs to deliver quicker decisions on disability and retirement 
        claims, shorter wait times for an appointment, and improved FO 
        telephone service.
          $85 million of the proposed funding would be allocated to 
        our PCs to handle more complex benefit decisions and address 
        the PC backlogs.
          $1.7 billion of the proposed funding would be allocated to 
        our IT services. This funding would allow us to maintain and 
        continue to modernize our large IT infrastructure and increase 
        our suite of digital and automated services.

    Question. The Vulnerable Population Liaisons (VPL) initiative was 
developed to serve as the bridge between SSA and underserved 
communities, partnering with local community organizations and legal 
aid groups as they assist their clients apply for Social Security and 
SSI benefits. However, I have heard from legal aid groups in my home 
State and around the country who have had difficulty accessing contact 
information for their respective VPL. This raises questions of whether 
SSA's VPL initiative will only be utilized by those ``in the know.''

    How do local field office management and/or regional offices raise 
awareness among service providers, community organizations, and legal 
aid groups on the VPL initiative as a resource?

    Answer. The Vulnerable Population Liaisons (VPLs) role is 
voluntary, as part of an employee's routine claim processing functions, 
and is not in every field office.

    Initially, while our offices were closed to walk-in service, local 
Public Affairs Specialists (PASs) provided partner community-based 
organizations (CBOs) with contact information for their local servicing 
VPLs to help people apply for SSI benefits.

    Currently, local practices for raising awareness of VPLs vary. The 
local PASs continue to engage CBOs to provide resources like our 
Outreach Toolkit \11\ and provide VPL contact information. 
Additionally, our Regional Communications Directors \12\ serve as local 
ombudspersons to help facilitate any further support needs.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \11\ https://www.ssa.gov/thirdparty/materials/pdfs/SSA_Faith-
Based_and_Community_Group
_Outreach_Toolkit.pdf.
    \12\ https://www.ssa.gov/agency/rcds.html.

    Question. How do local field office management or regional offices 
share VPL's contact information? Is it done proactively or only when 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
individuals or organizations reach out to SSA's regional offices?

    Answer. As noted in our response above, local practices may vary.

                                 ______
                                 
              Questions Submitted by Hon. Thomas R. Carper
    Question. Stolen Social Security numbers have become the linchpin 
of identity fraud. Perpetrators misuse Social Security numbers to apply 
for credit cards, and fraudulently claim or redirect government 
benefits. The misuse of Social Security numbers is an issue that 
affects Americans of all ages. Older Americans, newborns, and children 
are especially vulnerable as these groups are less likely to monitor 
their credit or use their Social Security number, therefore, less 
likely to notice fraud.

    How will the Social Security Administration leverage the 
President's budget request to improve agency coordination and customer 
service, specifically for victims of Social Security number misuse?

    Answer. The FY 2025 President's budget would allow us to restore 
staffing levels in field offices. Our frontline staff help people 
facing misuse to correct SSA program-related issues and provide 
information on steps they can take with credit bureaus, law 
enforcement, and other government agencies. Additionally, our employees 
refer allegations of misuse to our OIG for investigation.

    Question. The Social Security Administration is facing a 27-year 
staffing shortage. This shortage is only exasperated by Federal hiring 
freezes since October of last year, due to the uncertainty of funding 
for Fiscal Year 2024.

    How will the Social Security Administration work to not only hire 
new staff, but also retain existing staff and ensure they have the 
tools they need to thrive?

    Answer. Starting Day One, I visited SSA offices across the country 
and encouraged front-line employees to identify ideas for improving the 
customer and employee experience. We received over 3,500 employee 
ideas. So far, we implemented dozens of quick wins to reduce time-
consuming, administrative burdens on the public and make employee 
workloads more manageable. These changes are available on our recent 
agency accomplishments webpage. Based on all the input, we also 
developed our FY 2024 SSA Action Plan, which boils down the most 
impactful things we can accomplish into 27 strategic initiatives. 
Action on each of the initiatives has already begun; many will take 
more than just the year to fully accomplish. However, these efforts 
will also require important investments, including enactment of the FY 
2025 President's budget.

    With our FY 2024 enacted appropriation, we are providing limited 
targeted hiring and overtime to frontline operations. Through our HR 
SecurityStat--which meets every 2 weeks--we are working to improving 
employee training to better equip new hires, and strengthen retention. 
For example, we recently aligned our Domestic Employees Teleworking 
Overseas policy with section 6202 of the FY 2022 National Defense 
Authorization Act to better support military spouse employees.

    Additionally, on this year's Federal Employee Viewpoint Survey, we 
increased our participation or response rate by over 50 percent since 
last year--the highest year-over-year increase of any agency in the 
Federal Government. So our staff are most definitely reengaging. 
However, we know that morale still has a long way to go in light of the 
heavy weight of shrinking staff and growing workloads.

    I am proud of these accomplishments and the hard work SSA is doing. 
But these improvements will only go so far--our budget directly drives 
our staffing levels. We need a budget every year that allows us to 
continue hiring and fund needed service improvements.

    Question. Despite the Social Security Administration's best 
efforts, even the slightest error in calculating benefit payments can 
be costly to the taxpayer. In 2022, the agency issued an estimated 
$13.6 billion in improper payments. After reporting an overpayment to 
the Social Security Administration, several of my constituents have not 
received a monthly benefit while the agency reviews the overpayment 
issue. One constituent in particular, did not receive a single benefit 
payment for 3 months after reporting an overpayment.

    How will the agency ensure that no American who reports an under or 
over payment is penalized and left without any benefits during a review 
period?

    Answer. On March 25, 2024, we changed our procedure for recovering 
overpayments from Social Security benefits. We now collect 10 percent 
(but not less than $10 per month) of the total monthly Social Security 
benefit, rather than 100 percent, which was our prior procedure. There 
are limited exceptions, such as when an overpayment resulted from 
fraud.

    We also recently changed our policy so that we can approve a 
beneficiary's request to repay their overpayment at a lower rate over a 
longer period of time (up to 60 months) more efficiently. To qualify, a 
Social Security beneficiary needs only to provide a verbal summary of 
their income, resources, and expenses. Supplemental Security Income 
recipients do not need to provide this summary.

                                 ______
                                 
               Questions Submitted by Hon. Sherrod Brown
    Question. I appreciate the actions you outlined in your testimony 
to reduce overpayments. These are necessary first steps. Does SSA have 
a plan to implement a statute of limitations on collecting 
overpayments?

    Answer. We are exploring options generally to improve our 
administrative processes to reduce burden on our customers.

    Question. You have named the current SSI asset limit as an 
administrative burden for SSA. Please describe this in greater detail, 
and estimate what you think would happen to this administrative burden 
if Congress enacted legislation that moved the asset limit to $10,000 
single/$20,000 married, indexed moving forward. Would such a change 
result in savings for SSA?

    Answer. As you saw in the budget, the President is committed to 
protecting and strengthening Social Security, including supporting 
efforts to improve Social Security benefits, as well as Supplemental 
Security Income benefits, for seniors and people with disabilities, 
especially for those who face the greatest challenges making ends meet.

    We would be glad to provide your office with technical assistance 
on the potential impacts of the change you reference, including any 
administrative savings.

                                 ______
                                 
            Questions Submitted by Hon. Robert P. Casey, Jr.
    Question. During the hearing, you discussed wait times for 
determination of eligibility for SSI or SSDI benefits. In the case of 
people who have developed a disease or condition that threatens their 
life, quick determination of eligibility is critical. According to a 
GAO report from 2020, over the period from 2008 to 2019 almost 110,000 
people died waiting for determination of eligibility for benefits.

    In the cases when a person has developed a condition, such as 
amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS) or Huntington's disease, what does 
SSA do to expediate determination of eligibility and get benefits to 
recipients as soon as possible?

    Answer. Our two fast-track processes, Quick Disability 
Determinations (QDD) and Compassionate Allowances (CAL), identify 
claimants with the most severe impairments, like those you reference, 
so we can expedite decisions and reduce the wait time. For FY 2024, our 
average processing time for QDD cases was about 25 days and about 38 
days for CAL cases. Regarding ALS, we also note that the Disability 
Insurance Benefit 5-month waiting period no longer applies to claimants 
with ALS who have a Notice of Award dated on or after July 23, 2020.

    Question. The Compassionate Allowances listing is a valuable tool 
for addressing applicants who have a fast-moving condition or disease 
such as bladder cancer. SSA also works to identify new diseases or 
conditions that meet the Compassionate Allowance criteria, such as 
trisomy 9 or genetic deletion conditions such as 1p36 deletion 
syndrome.

    If an applicate for SSDI or SSI has a Compassionate Allowance 
condition, but their application is not receiving quick attention, what 
recourse do they have to expediate a decision regarding their 
eligibility?

    Answer. Claims involving Compassionate Allowance conditions are 
generally awarded benefits in about 38 days.

    For claims that extend beyond this timeframe, the local servicing 
field office can intervene, and if needed, Regional Communications 
Directors can facilitate additional support.

    Question. The ABLE Act, which I sponsored, passed in 2014 and makes 
it possible for SSI recipients to save up to $100,000 for disability 
expenses and still maintain SSI benefits. However, the number of people 
with ABLE accounts is only approximately 165,000, despite the ABLE Act 
allowing every person who is an SSI recipient and became disabled 
before the age of 26 is eligible to open an ABLE account.

    What can you and the leadership at SSA do to ensure that local 
Social Security offices know about the benefits of ABLE accounts for 
SSI recipients, and that accurate information about the effect on SSI 
benefits is being accurately conveyed to beneficiaries, especially 
families of child SSI recipients?

    Answer. ABLE accounts are a vital program that we continue to 
support by publishing and updating materials for our employees and the 
public, like a recent ABLE Programs Blog Post.\13\ We also make sure 
front-line staff know about ABLE accounts and share ABLE information 
with SSI recipients. I am also working with my Communications Team on 
expanding outreach efforts in this area.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \13\ https://blog.ssa.gov/able-programs-prepare-for-expanded-
eligibility/?utm_medium=email&
utm_source=govdelivery.

    Question. I introduced the Making ABLE a Tool to Combat Hardship, 
or the ABLE MATCH Act, which would provide a dollar-for-dollar match to 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
anyone who earns less than 200 percent of the Federal poverty limit.

    For those who are SSI recipients, how would this type of match 
incentivize savings and help them to become economically self-
sufficient?

    Answer. We would be glad to provide your office with technical 
assistance.

                                 ______
                                 
                 Questions Submitted by Hon. Mike Crapo
    Question. The Social Security Administration's long wait times for 
disability decisions, particularly those for Supplemental Security 
Income, not only affect applicants but also affect health-care 
providers who serve a large number of low-income patients. To help 
provide more clarity on SSA's wait times for disability decisions, 
please provide the latest national-level and Idaho-specific data 
available for the:

          Average processing time for initial disability claims for: 
        all claims; title II only; title XVI only; and concurrent 
        claims.

          Average processing time for disability reconsiderations for: 
        all claims; title II only; title XVI only; and concurrent 
        claims.

          Annual average processing time for hearings decisions for: 
        all claims; title II only; title XVI only; and concurrent 
        claims.

    Answer. We do not have the average processing times for the three 
levels of disability decisions by type of application. However, below 
we provided the average processing times through FY 2024 Q2--both 
national and those for Idaho.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                    Average Processing Time
   All Disability    ---------------------------------------------------
       Claims             Nationally (days)           Idaho (days)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Initial Claims                            229                       163
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Reconsiderations                          224                       123
------------------------------------------------------------------------
ALJ Hearings                              361                    421 *
------------------------------------------------------------------------
* The Boise hearing office (which hears all Idaho cases) is a satellite
  office of the Billings, MT hearing office. The average processing time
  is for the full Billings hearing office.


    Question. Please also describe the specific actions the SSA is 
planning to implement to reduce processing times for SSI applications.

    Answer. We are taking actions to streamline SSI processing by 
implementing program simplifications with process and technology 
improvements. For example, we recently:

          Published three regulations to streamline what we count as 
        income for calculating SSI eligibility and payments. First, SSA 
        no longer counts food assistance when it calculates SSI payment 
        amounts or eligibility.\14\ Second, a simpler rental subsidy 
        calculation is now SSA's nationwide policy, instead of applying 
        in only seven States.\15\ Third, SSA revised the definition of 
        a public assistance household \16\ to include the Supplemental 
        Nutrition Assistance Program and households where not all 
        members receive public assistance. These rules, which became 
        effective September 30, 2024, reduce the administrative burden 
        for applicants, recipients, and SSA.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \14\ https://www.ssa.gov/news/press/releases/2024/#3-2024-4.
    \15\ https://www.ssa.gov/news/press/releases/2024/#4-2024-1.
    \16\ https://www.ssa.gov/news/press/releases/2024/#5-2024-3.

          Launched first-party eSignature and document upload to local 
        offices and Workload Support Units nationwide (about 28,000 
        employees). So far, we approved the removal of wet signatures 
        on 13 forms, accounting for over 1 million submissions per 
        year. We are reviewing other forms that account for over 3 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
        million submissions per year.

          Implemented a ``no to all'' button (similar to ``select 
        all'') within the claims-taking process on SSI applications. 
        This new feature, based on employee feedback, saves employees 
        and your constituents time during the application process.

    Additional information on our initiatives to improve access to SSI 
is available on page 11 of our SSA Equity Action Plan 2023 Update.

    Question. On March 1, 2024, the Social Security Administration 
signed a memorandum of understanding (MOU) that expands certain 
employees' ability to participate in ``episodic'' telework on top of 
their existing telework arrangement. According to the MOU, it is 
anticipated that instances of episodic telework will be ``infrequent'' 
and ``limited in duration.''

    Are there any specific limitations on the total amount of episodic 
telework a front-line employee can request? If so, what are these 
limits?

    Answer. Telework is subject to supervisory approval based on 
business needs, and episodic telework is, by definition, infrequent or 
due to some sort of extenuating circumstance.

    Question. The President's budget outlines principles for protecting 
and strengthening Social Security but does not include a legislative 
proposal for improving Social Security's solvency.

    Under the President's budget, Social Security payroll taxes would 
actually decline by $17 billion over 10 years. What accounts for this 
decline in Social Security payroll taxes?

    Answer. Some of the budget's revenue proposals have effects on wage 
and salary income, which result in small changes to payroll taxes. 
However, these effects are minimal relative to total Social Security 
payroll tax collections, which are $15.7 trillion over the 10-year 
budget window.

    Question. The President's budget notes that the Social Security 
Administration is interested in renewal of section 234 demonstration 
project authority, which expired on December 31, 2022.

    Are there specific demonstration projects for which the agency is 
seeking this authority? If so, please provide the purpose, expected 
duration, and evaluation metrics for each potential demonstration 
project.

    Answer. As noted, we are interested in working with Congress to 
renew section 234 authority. What we would test would depend on the 
parameters of the authority, which have differed across previous 
renewals.

    We would be glad to work with your office to discuss potential 
projects, and provide you with further information regarding 
interventions, data collection and evaluation metrics, duration of the 
projects, contracts, and cost estimates.

    Question. The materials accompanying the President's budget project 
that the Social Security Administration's information technology (IT) 
modernization efforts yielded nearly $430 million in cost avoidance and 
efficiencies from fiscal year 2018 to 2023.

    What is the total IT investment that went into achieving these cost 
efficiencies?

    Answer. See table.


                            Table 3.25--Modernization Cost Avoidance and Efficiencies
                                                  (in millions)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                 Cumulative       * FY 2018-FY
                 Domain                    FY 2018-FY 2022  FY 2023 Benefits      Benefits         2023 Actual
                                              Benefits         (projected)       (projected)          Costs
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Benefits                                            $20.70             $0.05            $21.20           $183.51
Communications                                      $17.20             $0.00            $17.20            $41.89
Disability                                          $43.30            $26.90            $70.20           $279.42
Earnings                                            $15.20             $0.00            $15.20            $75.42
Enumeration                                        $212.10            $67.00           $279.10            $58.46
Infrastructure                                       $0.00             $0.65             $0.65             $0.00
Service Delivery                                    $24.70             $0.02            $24.70           $122.00
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Totals                                             $333.20            $95.00           $428.20          $760.70
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
* Represents the actual costs for the IT investments that achieved the FYs 2018-2022 actual and FY 2023
  projected cost efficiencies.
Note: The first three columns in this table are from SSA's FY 2025 Congressional Justification, https://
  www.ssa.gov/budget/assets/materials/2025/FY25-JEAC.pdf.


    Question. What are the work year savings associated with these cost 
efficiencies?

    Answer. We estimate approximately 3,400 work year savings are 
associated with these cost efficiencies, which enabled us to redirect 
frontline staff to other workloads.

    Question. Multiple President's budgets have discussed the Social 
Security Administration's plans to replace its three separate legacy 
phone systems for the national 800 number, field offices, and 
headquarters with a unified telephone system. According to SSA, 
creating a unified telephone system through its Next Generation 
Telephony Project (NGTP) would improve the quality and efficiency of 
its telephone service.

    Now that SSA has transitioned the national 800 number to NGTP, does 
SSA still plan to transition its field offices and headquarters to this 
platform?

    If yes, what is the timeline for this transition?

    If not, why not?

    Answer. We are no longer using the Next Generation Telephony 
Project (NGTP) platform for our 800 number, and we do not plan to 
transition any other phone systems to that platform because it fell far 
short of our expectations.

    Instead, on August 22, 2024, we transitioned our 800 Number to a 
better-
performing phone system with certain advantages like call-back assist. 
We have begun to turn the tide in the right direction. In October, we 
answered calls in an average of 12.8 minutes--still nothing to write 
home about, but significantly improved from 42 minutes last November. 
We estimate this move will save the agency up to $25 million in 
operating costs over 5 years.

                                 ______
                                 
                 Questions Submitted by Hon. Tim Scott
    Question. A priority issue for me and my constituents is the Social 
Security Administration's work to prevent synthetic identity fraud. 
This fraud, perpetrated by criminals who typically steal a child's 
Social Security number, create a synthetic identity, and rack up 
thousands in debt, often goes undetected for years. SSA holds the key 
to preventing this fraud. Legislation I previously authored created the 
SSA's electronic consent-based SSN verification (eCBSV) system to allow 
financial institutions and their service providers the ability to get a 
real-time response as to whether the name, SSN, and date of birth 
submitted to the financial institution matches SSA's records. If it is 
not a match, that's an indication that there may be synthetic identity 
fraud at play. SSA built and operationalized this system per my 
legislation, and it is also a requirement that financial institutions 
pay for the system. What I have heard and seen is that the cost of the 
build and operations of the system are astronomical, and in trying to 
recover the costs, SSA has increased the fees for the use of the 
system. These increases, leading to some institutions paying 22 times 
as much as they did originally, for the same service, are causing 
financial institutions to use the system less. The only people who 
benefit from this result are the criminals perpetrating synthetic 
identity fraud.

    What is SSA doing under your leadership to ensure that the pricing 
of the system does not deter use of it? What is the current status of 
the eCBSV?

    Answer. We understand that cost is one of several factors that may 
have contributed to less-than-expected participation in the service. As 
of October 2024, we have 20 direct customers and 2,916 indirect 
customers \17\ using the eCBSV service. We processed more than 54 
million transactions in FY 2024 and over 225 million transactions since 
initial rollout in FY 2020.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \17\ Direct customers pay SSA a subscription to connect directly to 
SSA's eCBSV. Indirect customers go through a service provider to use 
SSA's eCBSV.

    The Economic Growth, Regulatory Relief, and Consumer Protection Act 
requires that we fully offset the cost to administer eCBSV. We remain 
committed to reviewing costs annually and are monitoring our progress 
towards collecting enough eCBSV fees to breakeven on the system's build 
and ongoing costs. As we get closer to breaking even during FY 2027, we 
will evaluate lowering eCBSV fees. Once we have recouped our costs, the 
fee structure will be lower as it will only need to cover the ongoing 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
costs of eCBSV.

    Question. The recent pricing structure for the use of the eCBSV 
released in the Federal Register will continue to hamstring the program 
by effectively funneling all eCBSV requests through one mega provider. 
The top tier of the pricing structure would allow someone to make 
essentially unlimited requests when just 55 million requests were made 
last year. This would allow whichever firm purchases that tier to 
outprice their competitor, creating, in effect, a government-sanctioned 
monopoly. This was not congressional intent. With only one provider 
setting pricing for the entire market and forcing other eCBSV providers 
to exit, they will be able to set their pricing to whatever level they 
want and likely cool demand, in turn raising the number of new accounts 
that have not been vetted for synthetic identity fraud.

    Will SSA commit to restructuring their eCBSV prices in a way that 
encourages competition and expands the program's use?

    Answer. Yes, as noted in our response to the question above, we 
remain committed to reviewing costs annually and are monitoring our 
progress towards collecting enough eCBSV fees to breakeven on the 
system's build and ongoing costs. Once we have recouped our costs, the 
fee structure will be lower as it will only need to cover the ongoing 
costs of eCBSV.

                                 ______
                                 
                Questions Submitted by Hon. Bill Cassidy
    Question. SSA has historically been quite risk averse in its 
approach to technology adoption, and this has sometimes served the 
agency well. The agency has suffered fewer breaches than other 
similarly sized agencies, and I appreciate that. Also, the complexity 
and scale of the agency's legacy systems, combined with burdensome 
Federal contracting and hiring practices, make it difficult for SSA to 
modernize its technology. However, I am interested in learning more 
about how the agency is taking advantage of recent advancements in AI 
and other advancements to improve its service while achieving cost 
savings. Federal Government-wide, we need to learn from the private 
sector and find ways to do more with limited resources, and it seems AI 
could really help with this.

    Are there specific tasks where SSA plans to integrate AI? For 
example, is SSA going to use AI to identify cases of Social Security 
Disability Insurance (SSDI) fraud or overpayments?

    Answer. We recognize the benefits of leveraging AI technologies, 
like virtual assistants, to enhance the customer and employee 
experience. We use AI to support various processes, while remaining 
committed to preserving the rights and privacy of the public and 
ensuring compliance with applicable Federal legal authorities.

    For example, we are increasing use of our Intelligent Medical 
Language Analysis Generation (IMAGEN) tool, which helps employees 
complete disability determinations by identifying and organizing 
medical evidence. Since I started, the share of DDS cases that use 
IMAGEN has nearly doubled from 28 percent to over 50 percent. We are 
now training all new employees to use IMAGEN. We also expanded the 
types of cases for which DDS employees can use IMAGEN, and we expanded 
IMAGEN for use at the hearing level.

    SSA also uses AI to support program integrity, including 
overpayment trends. For example, we use a scoring model to profile 
Supplemental Security Income cases for technician review based on the 
likelihood and magnitude of an overpayment. We are also considering 
ways to leverage AI to help us detect potential fraud in our programs.

    Additional information on our outreach with industry experts about 
how AI may affect the landscape of Social Security is available on our 
National Disability Forum webpage.\18\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \18\ https://www.ssa.gov/ndf/ndf_outreach.htm?tl=0.

    Question. The SSA operates with many outdated legacy systems that 
were developed decades ago and have become increasingly difficult and 
expensive to maintain and integrate with modern technology. These 
systems often lack interoperability, scalability, and security features 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
required for efficient and effective operations in today's digital age.

    What is the SSA's current strategy for modernizing its legacy 
systems, and how does it prioritize which systems to upgrade first?

    Answer. Our modernization strategy focuses on providing more 
digital services to the public, improving the employee experience, and 
expanding access to digital data at SSA. Our IT Investment Review Board 
determines the budget allocations for our IT investments based on 
current agency priorities and goals.

    Prioritizing our investments to modernize our legacy systems is 
increasingly difficult as costs continue to rise, and we do not receive 
our full budget request. Information about our current accomplishments 
and major initiatives can be found on pages 33-34 of the agency's FY 
2025 Budget Overview.\19\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \19\ https://www.ssa.gov/budget/assets/materials/2025/2025BO.pdf.

    Question. Can you provide an overview of the challenges encountered 
in modernizing these legacy IT systems, and what specific steps are 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
being taken to overcome these obstacles?

    Answer. Our biggest challenge is the size and complexity of our 
systems. Continuing daily operations while we update our systems is a 
balancing act, and integrating new systems to work with our outdated 
legacy systems requires specialized knowledge and resources. We 
continue to experience attrition and loss of staff with this 
specialized knowledge.

    Completing our IT modernization work requires sustained investment 
to decrease dependency on legacy software before institutional staff 
knowledge is gone. While we received an IT budget of $2.1 billion in 
2024, we had to use almost 90 percent ($1.9 billion) to operate and 
maintain current services. Only 10% ($212 million) was left for us to 
modernize IT and expand our digital services. For example, with that 
remaining IT funding in FY 2024, we expanded Upload Document 
capabilities so the public can upload and sign (when a signature is 
required) certain documents electronically. Customer experience surveys 
indicate 86.8 percent customer satisfaction and 87.7 percent trust 
ratings with this service.

    We are doing what we can to consolidate and modernize our systems 
to help us adapt to future needs and automated process as outlined in 
our FY 2025 Budget Overview referenced above. However, we need help 
from Congress to ensure we have the necessary funding and staffing to 
provide the type of service Americans deserve.

    Question. How is SSA currently using AI in program administration 
tasks like identifying overpayment trends, and the prevention and 
detection of fraud?

    Answer. As noted in our response above, we use AI to support 
program integrity, which includes identifying overpayment trends. We 
use AI in the form of machine learning models to screen for anomalies 
and profile cases for employees to further review and then make 
determinations. We are also considering ways to leverage AI to help 
detect fraud in other areas of our programs.

    Question. With regard to software projects more generally, they 
seem to be most successful when a focus is kept on user needs. A major 
problem with past projects in a variety of agencies has been a tendency 
to collect all the requirements up front, and then fail to adapt to 
change. This results in systems that fail to center user needs.

    As you modernize legacy systems, can you please provide details as 
to who is responsible for developing new systems, and how are they 
being held accountable to ensure that the resulting product effectively 
addresses the requisite needs? Are software development best practices 
being following, like focusing on users, regular deliverables, and 
constant communication between teams?

    Answer. Our Chief Information Officer (CIO) is responsible for all 
software development and is accountable to me. The CIO is an active 
participant at SecurityStat, a performance management tool I stood up 
to address our customer service crisis. I require the attendance of all 
deputy commissioners, including the CIO, to collaborate on solutions to 
our key challenges and to report on their progress in the next meeting.

    When modernizing our systems or developing new software, we 
incorporate a quality assurance process. For example, we conduct user 
acceptance testing to obtain feedback from users, which helps us to 
determine whether a product is functioning as intended. This best 
practice also helps us to identify any potential improvements for 
future releases.

    Question. Many SSA systems are built on old mainframes that have 
not been upgraded in decades. This increases risk for issues such as 
insider threat and leads to ineffective citizen services. What is SSA's 
plan to modernize old systems, implement enhanced cybersecurity 
features, and increase payment integrity by decreasing fraud?

    Answer. Our technology modernization investments focus on simple, 
seamless, and secure service, while maintaining rigorous stewardship 
and oversight of our programs. For detailed information about how we 
are modernizing our information technology, enhancing cybersecurity, 
and increasing payment integrity, please refer to our accomplishments 
and major initiatives on pages 33-34 of our FY 2025 Budget Overview.

    Question. Thank you for responding to the letter that Senator 
Hassan and I sent back in November, urging the agency to reduce 
overpayments and prevent undue harm to the most vulnerable Social 
Security recipients when recovering overpayments. In that letter, you 
noted a series of administrative improvements that SSA has done to help 
reduce the incidence of these overpayment issues. However, my staff in 
Louisiana have sent me a report regarding a constituent of mine from 
down in Denham Springs that I wanted to run by you. Back in 2021, she 
received a letter from SSA noting that she has received over $67,000 in 
overpayments covering a period of over 10 years! SSA noted that it was 
a mistake made by them in their retirement calculations. Due to her age 
and disability status, and due to the fact that she faced severe losses 
from the 2016 floods in my State, she is in no position to pay back 
this overpayment. This issue has caused her great mental stress, and 
she is now seeking counseling for it.

    Can you please share what steps you are taking to address SSA's 
overpayments to beneficiaries?

    Answer. We have been taking a hard look at overpayments and have 
taken meaningful steps to improve the process through the following 
initiatives:

        1.  Lower Withholding Rate--In March, we ceased the heavy-
        handed practice of intercepting 100 percent of an overpaid 
        beneficiary's monthly Social Security benefit by default if 
        they fail to respond to our repayment notices. We now use a 
        much more reasonable default withholding rate of 10 percent of 
        total monthly benefits (but not less than $10 per month)--
        similar to the current rate in the SSI program.

        2.  Less Burdensome Repayment Process--We now approve repayment 
        plans of up to 60 months without requesting proof of income and 
        assets for the vast majority of beneficiaries who request to 
        work out a repayment plan. This change extended this easier 
        repayment option by an additional 2 years (from 36 to 60 
        months).

        3.  Payroll Information Exchange (PIE)--In February, we 
        published formal notice of our plans to access and use 
        information from payroll data providers. This long-awaited 
        system will reduce wage-related overpayments by ensuring we 
        receive timely and accurate wage data. We plan to use PIE data 
        to automatically adjust SSI benefits before they are paid--
        preventing overpayments from occurring--and to administer the 
        SSDI program more efficiently. The agency is carefully 
        reviewing and analyzing the public comments we received.

        4.  Waiver Process Simplification--We are making it much easier 
        for overpaid beneficiaries to request a waiver of repayment, 
        when they believe they are without any fault and cannot repay. 
        To do this, we are streamlining forms and simplifying 
        processes, as well as shifting the burden of proof where 
        applicable away from the beneficiary in determining whether 
        there is any evidence that the beneficiary was at fault in 
        causing the overpayment.

        5.  Notice Improvements--We have taken actions to reduce the 
        confusion our customers frequently have in understanding the 
        complexities of our notices. As we develop solutions, we will 
        focus on how we can clarify and simplify our overpayment 
        notices.

    Question. Thank you again for agreeing to work with us at your 
nomination on helping get my bipartisan claiming nomenclature bill 
through Congress. The same bipartisan group of Senators (Collins, 
Coons, Kaine) also introduced a bill to try to bring back the Social 
Security Statement. While millions of Americans have created My SSA 
online accounts, very few log in more than once, and I am concerned 
that the exact groups that either have not created an account or have 
not logged in regularly are the same ones that need the most help to 
better understand their future retirement benefits.

    Can I ask you to work my staff to help revise our current bill into 
one that SSA could support?

    Answer. We would be happy to provide your staff with technical 
assistance on your current bill.

                                 ______
                                 
                Questions Submitted by Hon. Steve Daines
    Question. Thousands of Montanans rely on Social Security payments, 
and while I commend your efforts to improve the national 800 number, we 
still hear from folks having trouble getting assistance from the Social 
Security Administration and facing long wait times to speak to a 
representative.

    What steps are you taking to decrease wait times and ensure callers 
can connect with an agent?

    Answer. Reducing wait times is one of my top priorities, and we 
address it every 2 weeks in our 800 number SecurityStat session. We 
also have a new executive with extensive experience managing high-
volume call centers who reports directly to me. I've tasked her with 
conducting a full review of our 800 number services to make 
recommendations to improve the employee and customer experience.

    On August 22, 2024, we transitioned our 800 number to a better-
performing phone system with certain advantages like call-back assist. 
We have begun to turn the tide in the right direction. In October, we 
answered calls in an average of 12.8 minutes--still nothing to write 
home about, but significantly improved from 42 minutes last November. 
We estimate this move will save the agency up to $25 million in 
operating costs over 5 years.

    We are also looking at expanding automated features like 
Interactive Voice Response. We are considering increasing self-service 
options for those who prefer them, reducing wait times for individuals 
who need to speak with an agent. Additionally, we are addressing the 
root causes of why people are being driven to our 800 number by 
simplifying complex and confusing notices and completing customers' 
needs on the first contact, and through redesigned webpages.

    We are doing everything we can with the current funding 
environment, but meaningful improvements simply require technology and 
funding for enough trained staff. With our FY 2024 enacted 
appropriation, we are providing limited targeted hiring and overtime to 
our front-line operations. The FY 2025 President's budget would allow 
us to devote an additional $79 million to our teleservice centers, who 
answer our 800 number calls, to increase staffing and reduce wait times 
by approximately 20 minutes.

    Question. You recently signed a memorandum of understanding 
allowing episodic telework.

    Can you provide information on what constitutes ``episodic'' and 
whether there are required minimum hours employees must work in person?

    Answer. The memorandum of understanding defines ``episodic'' 
telework as work that is infrequent, based upon the unique workload 
needs of the agency or due to the personal circumstances of the 
requesting employee, and limited in duration. For example, an employee 
might request episodic telework to work onsite for the second half of 
the day and use personal leave in the first half to fix a flat tire. As 
noted in our response to the question below, employees at our local 
offices work in the office at least 3 days a week. However, when life 
happens, episodic telework is a useful workplace flexibility, which we 
use to support recruitment and retention, while also being mindful of 
fulfilling our mission requirements.

    Question. What are the in-person requirements for employees working 
in the seven field offices in Montana to ensure constituents are able 
to get appointments all 5 days of the work week?

    Answer. Employees at our local Social Security offices work in the 
office at least 3 days a week. Schedules alternate within the office so 
that employees are present all 5 days of the week to serve the public. 
Whether they are in the office or teleworking, employees take calls or 
appointments over the phone and process applications for benefits.

                                 ______
                                 
                 Questions Submitted by Hon. Todd Young
    Question. Given the important role the SSA plays, it is imperative 
the agency fosters public trust by ensuring proper protocols are in 
place to protect beneficiaries. Notably, in September of last year, the 
Social Security Office of the Inspector General (OIG) issued a report 
titled ``Digital Identity in My Social Security'' that found the 
Administration's identity verification portal does not comply with 
current Federal requirements related to identity assurance.\20\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \20\ https://oig.ssa.gov/assets/uploads/142307.pdf.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Do you agree with OIG's findings in this report, why or why not?

    Answer. Yes, we agreed with OIG's recommendations in this report. 
We remain committed to aligning our digital identity program with 
Federal requirements while ensuring that our electronic services are 
accessible to all segments of the public.

    Question. What are you and your team doing to ensure American 
beneficiaries are not put at further risk of fraud due to incompliant 
identity verification protocols?

    Answer. We are continuing to make improvements that align our 
digital identity program with emerging guidelines, including emerging 
National Institute of Standards and Technology digital identity 
guidelines, and best practices. For example, we started a multiphase 
effort to transition all our customers to a federated credential 
service provider (Login.gov or ID.me) to meet current standards for 
security and credentialing. In addition to providing a greater level of 
security, this transition will streamline the customer experience 
allowing access online services across transaction types.

    Question. During your nominations process, you committed to 
providing this committee with an assessment of the performance of 
credential service providers at the SSA.

    Do you commit to sharing that information with both the majority 
and minority staff of this committee by May 31, 2024, ``yes'' or 
``no''?

    Please note that by this date, you will have been confirmed to your 
position for over 5 months.

    Answer. We recently completed this assessment and shared it with 
the committee.

    Question. When you came before this committee in advance of your 
confirmation, I asked you both during the hearing and in the proceeding 
questions for the record to discuss your views on telework. You 
emphasized that, if confirmed, you would ``examine in detail what the 
problems are'' with the availability of in-person appointments and 
``develop a comprehensive plan to improve customer service, including 
the ability to schedule face-to-face appointments in a timely manner.''

    In your time as Commissioner thus far, what have you discovered 
regarding the availability of in-person appointments to beneficiaries 
needing assistance?

    Answer. Many times customers are waiting too long for appointments, 
and we meet to tackle this issue every 2 weeks during our Operations 
SecurityStat. In February 2024, we shared best practices with all field 
office managers to ensure appointment calendar availability. We are 
also looking at additional opportunities for workload sharing to 
improve our appointment time frames.

    Question. How can the SSA continue to improve its in-person service 
to beneficiaries in Indiana and across the country?

    Answer. Please see our response to the question above on the 
actions we are taking to improve service for your constituents and 
members of the public nationwide.

    We also need sufficient and sustained funding to optimize service 
delivery. With our FY 2024 enacted appropriation, we are providing 
limited targeted hiring and overtime to our frontline operations. We 
encourage you to support the President's budget request for FY 2025.

    Question. What percentage of SSA employees telework full time? What 
percentage work a hybrid schedule? What percentage work in-person full 
time?

    Answer. As of April 19, 2024, approximately:

          Ninety percent of SSA employees are recurring teleworkers, 
        teleworking one or more days a week based on an agreement with 
        management. For instance, field office employees and most 
        headquarters employees report onsite at least 3 days a week.

          One percent of SSA employees are working remotely.

          Nine percent of SSA employees are working in-person full 
        time.

    Question. Over the past year, I have partnered with several of my 
colleagues on both sides of the aisle to gain a better understanding of 
the potential opportunities, and areas of concern, for AI 
implementation.

    As you evaluate budgetary needs for the SSA for Fiscal Year 2025, 
what role do you see artificial intelligence playing in improving 
customer service at the SSA?

    Answer. We recognize the benefits of leveraging AI technologies, 
like virtual assistants, to enhance the customer and employee 
experience. We use AI to support various processes, while remaining 
committed to preserving the rights and privacy of the public.

    For example, we are increasing use of our Intelligent Medical 
Language Analysis Generation (IMAGEN) tool, which helps employees 
complete disability determinations by identifying and organizing 
medical evidence. Since I started, the share of DDS cases that use 
IMAGEN has nearly doubled from 28 percent to over 50 percent. We are 
now training all new employees to use IMAGEN. We also expanded the 
types of cases for which DDS employees can use IMAGEN, and we expanded 
IMAGEN for use at the hearing level.

    SSA also uses AI to support program integrity such as identifying 
overpayment trends. For example, we use a scoring model to profile 
Supplemental Security Income cases for technician review of nonmedical 
eligibility based on the likelihood and magnitude of an overpayment. We 
are also considering ways to leverage AI to help us detect potential 
fraud in our programs.

    Additional information on our outreach with industry experts about 
how AI may affect the landscape of Social Security is available on our 
National Disability Forum webpage.

    Question. You have stated the SSA has a goal of reaching a 12-
minute wait time for the national 800 call line for Fiscal Year 2025, a 
20-minute decrease from Fiscal Year 2024 estimated call wait times.

    What steps do you intend to take to accomplish that goal?

    Answer. Reducing telephone wait times is one of my top priorities, 
and we address it every 2 weeks in our 800 number SecurityStat \21\ 
session. We also have a new executive with extensive experience 
managing high-volume call centers who reports directly to me. I've 
tasked her with conducting a full review of our 800 number services to 
make recommendations to improve the employee and customer experience.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \21\ https://www.ssa.gov/securitystat/800-number-performance.

    Through the agile SecurityStat process, we sprang into action and 
identified quick wins to reduce unnecessary calls on the front end, and 
improve first call resolution on the back end. Among those quick wins 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
on the 800 number, we:

          Secured approval from the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) to 
        accept phone attestations--instead of having to mail a paper 
        copy for wet signature--from beneficiaries wanting to change 
        their voluntary tax withholding from their benefits. This lets 
        us process and resolve the action on the first phone call.

          Enhanced our online system to automatically provide more 
        detailed claim status updates to the people representing 
        disability applicants, eliminating their need to call us for 
        frequent status updates.

          Transitioned to a better-performing phone system and rolled 
        out call-back assist, so customers can receive a call back when 
        an agent is available instead of waiting on hold. These data-
        driven decisions have yielded immediate benefits for both 
        callers and employees, including reduced wait times and more 
        self-service options.

          Revamped the training for new hires at our teleservice 
        centers to improve employee engagement and reduce attrition of 
        new hires.

    As a result of these quick actions and many more, we have begun to 
turn the tide in the right direction. In October we answered calls in 
an average of 12.8 minutes--still nothing to write home about, but 
significantly improved from 42 minutes last November. Having 
transitioned on August 22nd to a more modern and higher-
performing phone system, our FY 2025 goal is to keep average wait times 
on our 800 number under 12 minutes on average for the entire fiscal 
year.

    We are doing everything we can within the current funding 
environment. For example, we are looking at expanding automated 
features like Interactive Voice Response. We are also considering 
increasing self-service options for those who prefer them, reducing 
wait times for individuals who need to speak with an agent. 
Additionally, we are addressing the root causes of why people are being 
driven to call our 800 number by simplifying complex and confusing 
notices and completing customers' needs on the first contact.

    However, meaningful improvements simply require technology and 
funding for enough trained staff. With our FY 2024 enacted 
appropriation, we are providing limited targeted hiring and overtime to 
our frontline operations. The FY 2025 President's budget would allow us 
to devote an additional $79 million to our teleservice centers to 
increase staffing and reduce wait times by approximately 20 minutes.

    Question. While the metric of phone call wait times is helpful in 
assessing the level of customer service, a more complete metric is the 
number of individuals that are able to actually receive the assistance 
they need via the phone.

    Of the beneficiaries that call the national 800 number, what is the 
success rate of individuals that are actually able to get in touch with 
a live representative?

    Answer. In September 2024, our answer rate is approximately 64 
percent. Please refer to our SecurityStat webpage, which tracks our 800 
number performance including a chart on the percentage of callers that 
reach a representative. Additionally, based on survey data as of 
September 2024, customers reported 87 percent satisfaction with their 
experience once they reached an agent.

    Question. What is the success rate of beneficiaries that call the 
national 800 number and are able to have their issue resolved?

    Answer. We are committed to making sure customers can resolve their 
issues at the first point of contact, which as of September 2024, 84 
percent of surveyed 800 number customers reported we achieved.

    Question. SSA employees in my State have shared with me concerns 
about the SSA's attrition rates. They have witnessed challenges with 
retaining employees who are frustrated by a lack of training, poor IT 
support, and other hindrances.

    Please provide attrition rates for current SSA employees, not 
including retirements. Include clear explanations of the data and 
timeframes used in your response.

    Answer. The pie chart below shows SSA's separation data by type and 
category as of April 25, 2024. Nonretirement separation continues to 
outpace retirements. Additionally, resignations are the leading type of 
separations. Additional information about our separation trends is 
available in our Human Capital Operating Plan: FY 2023-2026.\22\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \22\ https://www.ssa.gov/open/materials/SSA-Human-Capital-
Operating-Plan-FY2024-FY2026.pdf.

[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]


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    Question. What do you believe leads to attrition at SSA?

    Answer. Staffing levels that are too low are the primary driver of 
attrition because they result in unsustainable workloads. According to 
exit surveys, employees report feeling exhausted and overworked. 
Employees leaving the agency have reported low morale, insufficient 
training and development, and high workloads as the top three areas for 
improvement. Additionally, attracting and retaining new hires has been 
a challenge. Our direct service structure hampers our ability to 
compete with the workplace flexibilities of other similar agencies.

    Question. What can the SSA do to improve its employee retention 
rates? Please provide concrete steps on how you plan to address 
employee attrition, including benchmarks with dates and measurable 
goals.

    Answer. We are listening to our employees. On this year's Federal 
Employee Viewpoint Survey, we increased our participation or response 
rate by over 50 percent since last year--the highest year-over-year 
increase of any agency in the Federal Government. So our staff are most 
definitely reengaging. However, we know that morale still has a long 
way to go in light of the heavy weight of shrinking staff and growing 
workloads.

    Starting Day One, I visited SSA offices across the country and 
encouraged front-line employees to identify ideas for improving the 
customer and employee experience. We received over 3,500 employee 
submissions. So far, we implemented dozens of quick wins to reduce 
time-consuming, administrative burdens on the public and make employee 
workloads more manageable. These changes are available on our recent 
agency accomplishments webpage. Based on all the input, we also 
developed our FY 2024 SSA Action Plan, which boils down the most 
impactful things we can accomplish into 27 strategic initiatives. 
Action on each of the initiatives has already begun; many will take 
more than just the year to fully accomplish. However, these efforts 
will also require important investments, including enactment of the FY 
2025 President's budget.

    Additionally, with our FY 2024 enacted appropriation, we are 
providing limited targeted hiring and overtime to front-line 
operations. Through our HR Security
Stat--which meets every 2 weeks--we are working to improving employee 
training to better equip new hires, and strengthen retention. For 
example, we recently aligned our Domestic Employees Teleworking 
Overseas policy with section 6202 of the FY 2022 National Defense 
Authorization Act to better support military spouse employees.

    I am proud of these accomplishments and the hard work SSA is doing. 
But, these improvements will only go so far--our budget directly drives 
our staffing levels. We need a budget every year that allows us to 
continue hiring and fund needed service improvements.

                                 ______
                                 
               Questions Submitted by Hon. John Barrasso
    Question. I appreciate your recognition of the many issues facing 
the Social Security Administration. In comparison to pre-COVID 
performance metrics, wait times for phone calls and in-person services 
approximately doubled. The time frame for disability determinations has 
also doubled, alongside the disability claims backlog.

    How do you account for the poor performance outcomes described 
above?

    Answer. SSA's budget was essentially level from FY 2018 through FY 
2021, while costs continued to increase. We had to make difficult 
decisions to cut funding in certain areas, such as staffing and 
overtime. As a result, we ended FY 2022 with our lowest staffing level 
in more than 50 years. At the end of FY 2024, we served over 7 million 
more beneficiaries with about 6,300 fewer full-time permanent staff 
when compared to FY 2015.

    Modernization and other efficiencies helped for some things, but we 
cannot keep doing more with less. With funding we received in our FY 
2024 enacted appropriation, we are providing limited targeted hiring 
and overtime to our front-line operations. We need your help to ensure 
we have sufficient and sustained funding. I encourage you to support 
the President's budget request for FY 2025.

    Question. What is your strategy to decrease the time frame for 
disability determinations?

    Answer. One of our FYs 2024-2025 Agency Priority Goals is to 
improve the customer experience by reducing the wait time for an 
initial disability claim decision. By September 30, 2025, our goal is 
to achieve an average processing time for initial disability claims of 
215 days and decide 92 percent of pending initial disability claims 
that begin the fiscal year 180 days old or older.

    So far, we implemented many recent agency accomplishments to reduce 
administrative burdens and improve access for people with disabilities. 
Additionally, our FY 2024 SSA Action Plan boils down the most impactful 
things we can accomplish into 27 strategic initiatives. Including to 
reduce disability wait times. Action on each of the initiatives has 
already begun; many will take more than just the year to fully 
accomplish. However, these efforts will also require important 
investments, including enactment of the FY 2025 President's budget. Our 
ongoing progress can be tracked on SecurityStat, which is a performance 
measurement tool to help us set goals, choose actions, and monitor 
progress in meeting these challenges.

    Question. What is your plan to reduce wait times for phone calls 
and in-person appointments?

    Answer. Reducing telephone wait times is one of my top priorities, 
and we address it every 2 weeks in our 800 number SecurityStat session.

    We also have a new executive who reports directly to me with 
extensive experience managing high-volume call centers. I've tasked her 
with conducting a full review of our 800 number services to make 
recommendations to improve the employee and customer experience.

    On August 22, 2024, we transitioned our 800 number to a better-
performing phone system with certain advantages like call-back assist. 
We have begun to turn the tide in the right direction. In October, we 
answered calls in an average of 12.8 minutes--still nothing to write 
home about, but significantly improved from 42 minutes last November. 
We estimate this move will save the agency up to $25 million in 
operating costs over 5 years.

    As outlined in our FY 24 SSA Action Plan, we are looking at 
expanding automated features like Interactive Voice Response. We are 
also considering increasing self-service options for those who prefer 
them, reducing wait times for individuals who need to speak with an 
agent. Additionally, we are addressing the root causes of why people 
are being driven to our 800 number by simplifying complex and confusing 
notices and completing customers' needs on the first contact.

    We recognize that customers are waiting far too long for 
appointments, and we meet to tackle this issue every 2 weeks during our 
Operations SecurityStat. In February 2024, we shared best practices 
with all field office managers to ensure appointment calendar 
availability. We are also looking at additional opportunities for 
workload sharing to improve our appointment timeframes.

    As noted in response to your first question, modernization and 
other efficiencies helped for some things, but we cannot keep doing 
more with less. We are doing everything we can within the current 
funding environment, but meaningful improvements simply require 
technology and funding for enough trained staff.

    Question. What is your solution to addressing the disability claims 
backlog?

    Answer. As noted in our responses to your first two questions, 
improving the disability claims process is one of my top priorities. 
Our recent accomplishments and FY 2024 limited targeted hiring can help 
us address the backlog, but ultimately, we need funding for technology 
and enough trained staff. With the FY 2025 President's budget, we plan 
to get processing times down to 215 days for initial disability claims. 
Our long-term goal is to reduce those waits to 4 months (120 days).

    Question. Since COVID, the SSA has relied heavily on telework. I 
believe this is a massive factor in the poor performance outcomes 
described above. You have made changes to teleworking policies, which 
have yet to take effect. But they fall far short of a quick and 
immediate return to pre-COVID norms.

    Do you believe a stronger on-site presence will improve customer 
service?

    Answer. Yes, I believe a stronger on-site presence enhances 
collaboration, engagement, and innovation. Our primary goal is to 
ensure we deliver on our mission to provide the level of service our 
customers expect and deserve. We know that many people rely on our in-
person services, and we strive to provide people with the benefits and 
services they have earned and need.

    Question. Why is your agency not requiring employees to fully 
return to the office?

    Answer. Like most agencies, we have had telework to some degree at 
our agency for over 20 years, and our approach to our telework policy 
is the same now as it was before the pandemic. We use telework where it 
supports our mission. In accordance with the Telework Act of 2010, our 
telework program, which we have had for over 20 years, provides 
workplace flexibility and continuity of operations during emergencies. 
Before the pandemic, it was not unusual for employees to telework or 
for employees to bring laptops home in anticipation of weather or other 
emergency-required telework days.

    The hybrid work environment is important to our recruitment and 
retention efforts in today's labor market. It helps us compete with 
other private employers and other Federal agencies that offer flexible 
work arrangements. In addition to supporting recruitment and retention, 
the hybrid work environment enables us to institute space sharing or 
hoteling when it makes business sense.

    Question. Do you have an expected timeline for a full-return to the 
office? If not, when will you have one?

    Answer. We do not anticipate discontinuing our use of telework in 
the foreseeable future. In April, we significantly increased our on-
site presence to ensure we gain the benefits of working together, face-
to-face, while maintaining hybrid work benefits as well. Currently,

          Ninety percent of SSA employees are recurring teleworkers, 
        teleworking 1 or more days a week based on a signed agreement 
        with management. For instance, field office employees and most 
        headquarters employees report onsite at least 3 days a week.

          One percent of SSA employees work remotely.

          Nine percent of SSA employees work in-person full time.

    Question. The Social Security number is the centerpiece of American 
identity. Whether you are obtaining employment, opening a bank account, 
establishing credit, or countless other purposes, you need a Social 
Security number. This is also the case for receiving government 
benefits. As a result, there are numerous reasons someone would attempt 
to steal another person's Social Security number.

    Massive data breaches have left American citizens vulnerable to 
identity theft. Criminal networks are dangerously sophisticated in 
stealing these numbers and selling them to bad actors. Now, pair these 
risks with the influx of 9 million illegal immigrants in the last 3 
years alone. We know that many illegal immigrants obtain stolen Social 
Security numbers of U.S. citizens to receive benefits and obtain jobs. 
Past projections, according to the Center for Immigration Studies, 
indicate 75 percent of illegal immigrants are using fake or stolen 
numbers. Another study from the Social Security Administration in 2013 
estimated that some 700,000 illegal immigrants were using stolen Social 
Security numbers.

    Do high levels of illegal immigration pose greater risks for 
widespread identity theft, in terms of citizens having their Social 
Security Numbers stolen?

    Answer. We recognize the challenges of identity theft. As the White 
House has said,\23\ it is clear that reliance on historic knowledge-
based verification (e.g., Social Security number, date of birth), is 
more and more susceptible to attacks given the widespread ease of 
access by criminal syndicates to individuals' personal information, 
which can be bought on the dark web for pennies.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \23\ Fact Sheet: President Biden's Sweeping Pandemic Anti-Fraud 
Proposal: Going After Systemic Fraud, Taking on Identity Theft, Helping 
Victims, The White House. https://www.white
house.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2023/03/02/fact-sheet-
president-bidens-sweeping-pandemic-anti-fraud-proposal-going-after-
systemic-fraud-taking-on-identity-theft-helping-vic-
tims/.

    Regarding the SSA study you referenced, we believe you are 
referring to SSA's April 2013 Actuarial Note: Effects on Unauthorized 
Immigrants on the Social Security Trust Funds.\24\ However, the study 
notes that the majority of the SSNs in the figure you cite were not 
stolen from citizens but were obtained from SSA, often decades earlier, 
by using fraudulent documents. To address this, we successfully 
strengthened identity verification for the SSN application process over 
time. Today, we use a robust application process requiring SSN 
applicants to submit evidence of age, identity, and United States 
citizenship or current work-authorized immigration status. We also 
coordinate with other government agencies--the custodians of the 
records we use to assign SSNs--to obtain the information they collect 
and verify electronically. Our estimates made use of data and estimates 
from the Census Bureau and Department of Homeland Security.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \24\ https://www.ssa.gov/OACT/NOTES/pdf_notes/note151.pdf.

    From SSA's perspective, when we come across any evidence of misuse 
of an SSN, we refer the matter to our Office of Inspector General to 
investigate. Our OIG is responsible for investigating allegations of 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
SSN misuse and fraud.

    We refer the public to the Federal Trade Commission, which provides 
public resources at Federal Trade Commission, Protecting America's 
Consumers,\25\ and publishes fraud trend data at Explore Data, Federal 
Trade Commission.\26\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \25\ https://www.ftc.gov/.
    \26\ https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/data-visualizations/explore-
data.

    Question. What is the agency doing to stop identity theft, and how 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
are you working to protect U.S. citizens from being victims?

    Answer. We use various strategies to educate the public and our 
employees about how best to protect their sensitive information from 
fraudsters. For example, we:

          Released public service announcements, worked with external 
        groups and agencies to raise awareness, and partnered with the 
        United States Postal Service to display identity scam 
        prevention posters in Post Offices around the country.

          Provide our employees with the latest information to ensure 
        they can help the public, including their friends, families, 
        and communities.

          Use social media to reach individuals, advising them to 
        ``guard their card'' and sensitive information.

          Collaborate closely with our OIG to keep our customers and 
        employees informed of developing threats against their personal 
        information, like our annual Slam the Scam.

          Perform over 2 billion legally authorized automated SSN 
        verifications annually through more than 3,500 data 
        exchanges.\27\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \27\ Our verification services verify that the name, SSN, and other 
information presented match our records. We cannot verify that the 
individual presenting that information is the correct individual.

    Question. What services are you providing U.S. citizens who have 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
had their Social Security number stolen and misused?

    Answer. We understand the frustration, distress, and economic 
hardship that SSN misuse and identity theft cause victims. If an 
individual suspects their identity has been stolen, they can contact us 
directly and we can correct SSA program-related issues.

    We develop cases of possible SSA-program related fraud and refer 
them to our OIG for investigation as appropriate. Individuals who 
suspect their identities have been stolen can place a block on their 
online SSA account to prevent anyone from viewing their record or being 
able to change direct deposit information online or by phone without 
contacting us.

    As a matter of practice, we also provide individuals who suspect 
their identities have been stolen with up-to-date information about 
steps they can take to work with credit bureaus, law enforcement 
agencies, and the Federal Trade Commission. We encourage individuals to 
consider contacting the IRS because an identity thief might use a 
stolen SSN to file a tax return.

    Question. How many illegal immigrants used stolen Social Security 
numbers and fraudulent Social Security cards last year?

    Answer. Please refer to our previous response.

    Question. Has there been an increase in fraud over the last 5 and 
10 years?

    Answer. Please refer to our previous response.

    Question. Please provide any additional data the Social Security 
Administration has on the current use of Social Security number by 
illegal immigrants.

    Answer. Please refer to our previous response.

                                 ______
                                 
                 Prepared Statement of Hon. Ron Wyden, 
                       a U.S. Senator From Oregon
    Today, the Finance Committee meets to discuss the Biden 
administration's commitment to protecting and strengthening Social 
Security. Thank you, Commissioner O'Malley, for joining us. 
Commissioner, you're not even 100 days into your time in office, and 
already, you've taken more concrete action to help seniors and improve 
operations in your administration than most of your predecessors.

    At your confirmation hearing back in November, I pressed you on the 
urgent need to address the scourge of overpayments, which are forcing 
already struggling beneficiaries to pay back thousands--sometimes even 
tens of thousands--of dollars because of a mistake that was no fault of 
their own. No American living on a fixed income, struggling to balance 
the grocery bill against rent and utilities, can afford to pay a large 
bill back to the government.

    A few years ago, I wrote a law requiring the Social Security 
Administration to modernize its systems to prevent overpayments. For 
years, SSA dragged its feet on implementing those changes. Many of the 
recent problems with overpayments could have been prevented if the 
agency had implemented these changes sooner.

    Just 3 weeks after you were confirmed, Commissioner, you committed 
to bringing the SSA into the 21st century, and promised to get these 
new systems up and running this year. This will significantly 
streamline Social Security's process so the agency can get wage data 
quickly, efficiently, and accurately to prevent overpayments.

    You promised swift action, and you've already been delivering, and 
exceeding expectations--not only on big, pressing problems like 
overpayments, but you haven't shied away from diving right in to fix 
some of the smaller challenges the SSA is facing. Listening to 
employees and seniors, you are also making concrete changes that will 
make it easier for seniors to sign up for Medicare and improve customer 
service.

    You've shown that no problem is too small to fix if it means 
improving service and getting checks out the door faster to seniors who 
need them.

    In my view, when it comes to these challenges, there's a clear 
choice to make: we can either let a broken system continue to upend the 
lives of Americans, or you can tackle these problems head-on. 
Commissioner, as far as I can tell, you've made the right choice.

    To build off of that, last week President Biden released his 
administration's budget and reaffirmed his commitment to protecting 
Social Security and his opposition to any cuts to Americans' hard-
earned benefits. That's a sharp contrast to the Republican front-runner 
for the presidential nomination, who that same day said on national 
television that there was a lot that can be done on Americans' hard-
earned Social Security and Medicare benefits, quote ``in terms of 
cutting.'' That, in a nutshell, is his platform when it comes to this 
issue: cut programs, and let everyone else pick up the pieces.

    Obviously, solvency is top of everyone's minds with regard to 
protecting Social Security, and I will continue working alongside my 
colleagues to ensure we protect Americans' hard-earned benefits for 
decades to come. A key piece of that puzzle will be finally making sure 
billionaires and the ultrawealthy start paying their fair share. My 
billionaires income tax would ensure the ultrawealthy start paying the 
taxes they owe and help close the gap to ensure seniors can depend on 
the lifeline of Social Security for years to come.

    I'll close with this: today's hearing is a bit out of the ordinary 
for us, as the Finance Committee has not held a hearing specifically to 
perform oversight on the Social Security Administration's budget in 
over a decade. But today's hearing is further evidence of momentum 
under Commissioner O'Malley and President Biden's leadership to deliver 
for seniors. I convened today's hearing not only to get an update on 
the Biden administration's efforts to address ongoing challenges within 
Social Security, but to also underscore exactly what's at stake with 
this bedrock program that millions of seniors and Americans with 
disabilities rely on.

    President Biden's proposed budget for the coming year shows his 
commitment to protecting seniors' hard-earned benefits and ensuring the 
Social Security Administration has the resources it needs to improve 
customer service and better serve the American people.

    Commissioner, as discussed, you've been hard at work to get things 
back on track. I look forward to hearing more today about your ongoing 
efforts to protect Americans' hard-earned Social Security benefits.

                                 ______
                                 

                             Communications

                              ----------                              


                                  AARP
March 20, 2024

The Honorable Ron Wyden             The Honorable Mike Crapo
Chairman                            Ranking Member
Committee on Finance                Committee on Finance
United States Senate                United States Senate
219 Dirksen Senate Office Building  219 Dirksen Senate Office Building
Washington, DC 20510                Washington, DC 20510

Dear Chairman Wyden and Ranking Member Crapo:

AARP, which advocates for the more than 100 million Americans age 50 
and older, thanks you for holding today's important hearing on ``The 
President's Fiscal Year 2025 Social Security Administration Budget.'' 
Social Security has an unparalleled nearly 90-year track record of 
success, is incredibly popular with the American people, and serves as 
a lifeline for millions of older Americans and their families. Congress 
should and must do more, therefore, not only to protect Social 
Security, but also to improve the vital services provided by the 
agency.

The Importance of Social Security

According to the Social Security Administration (SSA), more than 67 
million Americans are currently receiving the money they have earned 
from Social Security after a lifetime of hard work and contributions. 
Social Security is the principal source of income for over 40 percent 
of older American households, and roughly one in six older households 
depend on it for nearly all of their income. Despite its critical 
importance, people's average checks are modest. Nonetheless, Social 
Security lifts approximately 16.5 million older Americans out of 
poverty and allows millions more to live their retirement years 
independently, without fear of outliving their income.

Increased Funding for SSA Customer Service

AARP believes that older Americans and their families have earned not 
only their Social Security, but the right to receive timely and 
accurate services from SSA. Unfortunately, service at the agency has 
been declining for many years, largely as the result of underfunding 
from Congress. This trend must end now.

SSA simply does not have the resources it requires to provide all 
services promptly and properly to its customers. Between 2010 and 2023, 
SSA's operating budget shrank by 17 percent, even as the number of 
beneficiaries grew by 22 percent. SSA is also currently experiencing 
historic lows in staffing. It is not realistic to expect SSA to provide 
the necessary level of service to a growing customer base with a 
shrinking workforce and the continued failure of Congress to approve 
adequate funding. These failures are having very real consequences for 
the American people.

AARP often hears from our members who are frustrated, or worse, when 
interacting with the agency. Callers to SSA's National 1-800 number 
wait an average of 35 minutes for their call to be answered, with many 
hanging up long before then. American workers filing for disability 
benefits are experiencing the longest wait time ever for an initial 
determination. For those who are originally denied and seek a decision 
from an Administrative Law Judge, they must wait an additional year on 
average. Shockingly, more than 10,000 people die every year while 
waiting for a final decision on their disability claims.

To help SSA make necessary improvements to its customer service, 
Congress must make available increased funding for the agency. As such, 
AARP urges Congress to approve, at a minimum, the Administration's 
$15.5 billion request for SSA administrative expenses for the 2025 
fiscal year. With this additional funding, which comes not from general 
revenue but from the Social Security Trust Funds, we expect the agency 
to make long-overdue improvements in service and hire top-quality staff 
to meet the needs of the American public.

Social Security has a responsibility and a duty to provide timely and 
quality service to the public, and Congress has a duty to ensure the 
agency has the resources necessary for SSA to fulfill its mission. We 
are already nearly halfway through the 2024 fiscal year, but Congress 
has lurched from one funding crisis to another, paralyzing agencies 
like SSA who need to hire staff and make long-term investments for the 
future. Given that this agency's dollars come mostly from the Social 
Security Trust Funds, not general revenue, Congress is effectively 
denying the American people the customer service they deserve and have 
already paid for via their payroll taxes.

We strongly urge Congress to reverse the trend of denying SSA the 
funding it needs, and to ensure those additional dollars are spent to 
improve customer service.

Social Security Deserves a Full and Open Debate

Congress must act to ensure Social Security remains strong for 
generations to come. According to the most recent Social Security 
Trustees' report, Social Security can continue to pay 100 percent of 
earned benefits until 2034. After that, and without action from 
Congress, Social Security can continue to pay about 80 percent of 
promised benefits for generations, falling to 74 percent in 2097. 
Social Security is not ``going broke'' as some have argued, but 
Congress does need to take action sooner rather than later to shore up 
the program's long-term finances and to ensure the future adequacy of 
Social Security.

At the same time, AARP calls on Congress to take up this important work 
in an open, transparent way. AARP believes the Senate Finance 
Committee, which has deep expertise and jurisdiction over Social 
Security, should be the lead on such efforts, not a new commission or 
``super committee.'' We strongly object to proposals to create new 
commissions or committees to address Social Security. If regular order 
is the gold standard for routine legislative matters, it certainly 
should be the standard for Social Security.

Moreover, let us be clear that debt and deficits in the general budget 
are not the correct lens through which to view changes to Social 
Security. Instead, any changes should focus on the financial and 
retirement security of the American people. Social Security is not a 
driver of the annual deficits or current national debt. It is not 
funded by general revenue but is instead self-financed. In fact, more 
than 90 percent of Social Security is financed by payroll tax 
contributions from American workers and employers; around 4 percent is 
from federal income taxes on some Social Security benefits; and around 
6 percent comes from interest earned on U.S. Treasury bonds held by the 
Social Security Trust Funds. Any argument that claims Social Security 
is a driver of the national debt--simply because it receives interest 
from the U.S. Treasury bonds it has purchased--is disingenuous at best.

Older Americans agree that Social Security should be protected in any 
discussion about the debt or deficit. According to AARP research,\1\ 85 
percent of older Americans oppose targeting Social Security to reduce 
federal budget deficits. And this is consistent across political 
affiliation: 88 percent of Republicans, 79 percent of Independents, and 
87 percent of Democrats strongly oppose cutting Social Security to 
reduce the debt.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \1\ https://www.aarp.org/pri/topics/work-finances-retirement/
social-security/social-security-medicare-budget-deficit/.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Conclusion

Once again, thank you for holding today's important hearing. We look 
forward to working with you to ensure millions of older Americans and 
their families receive the high-quality service they deserve from SSA 
and to protect their hard-earned Social Security. If you have any 
questions, please feel free to contact me, or have your staff contact 
Tom Nicholls on our Government Affairs staff at tnicholls@aarp.org or 
(202) 434-3765.

Sincerely,

Bill Sweeney
Senior Vice President
Government Affairs

                                 ______
                                 
          American Federation of Government Employees, AFL-CIO

                            80 F Street, NW

                          Washington, DC 20001

                             (202) 737-8700

                              www.afge.org

Chairman Wyden, Ranking Member Crapo and Members of the Committee:

On behalf of the American Federation of Government Employees, AFL-CIO 
(AFGE) which represents over 750,000 federal employees at over 70 
different agencies, we thank you for holding this important hearing on 
Social Security Administration's (SSA) FY 2025 budget proposal.

With offices in every state, AFGE represents over 44,500 SSA employees. 
AFGE employees at SSA help more than 67 million elderly, disabled, 
widows and orphaned children access the insurance benefits earned from 
working. These benefits, which only average $1,773 a month,\1\ help 
these families survive when they can no longer work because of age, 
disability or death of a family member. For about 40% of elderly 
beneficiaries, Social Security is their largest source of income in 
retirement.\2\ While 10% of seniors over the age of 65 are currently in 
poverty, without Social Security a whopping 39% of seniors would be in 
poverty.\3\ Social Security is also the largest and most successful 
children's anti-poverty program; nearly 4 million children of a 
disabled, retired, or deceased parent are helped by the program.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \1\ SSA Monthly Statistical Snapshot, February 2024. Available at: 
www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/quickfacts/stat_snapshot/.
    \2\ SSA Fact Sheet. Available at: www.ssa.gov/news/press/
factsheets/basicfact-alt.pdf.
    \3\ ``President's Budget Strengthens Social Security,'' CBPP, March 
11, 2024. Available at www.cbpp.org/blog/analyzing-president-bidens-
2025-budget#Kathleen-Romig-311150PM.

With the baby boom generation entering retirement years at a rate of 
10,000 a day Social Security beneficiaries have increased by 22% from 
2010 to 2023.\4\ However, SSA's operating budgets have not only failed 
to keep up, they have decreased by 17%.\5\ This has led to a loss of 
16% of SSA's workforce, nearly 10,000 workers, going from 66,989 full 
time equivalent employees (FTE) in FY 2010 to only 58,201 FTEs in FY22. 
For the public, this means long wait times for individuals in need to 
get the help they need. For example, average phone wait times were 35 
minutes in February 2024, and disability claims wait on average 7.5 
months for an initial claim and 2.5 years through the hearing level.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \4\ ``Social Security Administration Needs Additional Funding to 
Avoid Exacerbating Customer Service Crisis,'' CBPP, September 22, 2023. 
Available at: www.cbpp.org/blog/social-security-administration-needs-
additional-funding-to-avoid-exacerbating-customer-service.
    \5\ ``Social Security Administration Needs Additional Funding to 
Avoid Exacerbating Customer Service Crisis,'' CBPP, September 22, 2023. 
Available at: www.cbpp.org/blog/social-security-administration-needs-
additional-funding-to-avoid-exacerbating-customer-service.

To better serve the public, the agency needs more front-line staff to 
process claims and to retain its experienced workforce. According to 
agency data, SSA only has 18,500 Claims Specialists in Field 
Operations. Yet in FY23, it would have taken 29,300 work years to 
complete the existing Retirement, Survivor, and Disability claims. SSA 
needs thousands of additional Claims Specialists to process claims and 
prevent the backlog of cases from continuing to grow. Due to high 
attrition in the Customer Service Representative position (FY 2023 
shows 15% attrition with Customer Service Rep positions in field 
offices, 21% attrition with Customer Service Representative positions 
in the SSA Tele-Service Centers), Claims Specialists are doing four 
different jobs. They are not only given claims cases at increasingly 
rapid rates, but now also answering general phone inquiries, serving 
walk-in customers at field offices, processing card applications and 
taking more complex cases. This results in employee fatigue and burn 
out and is the driving cause of higher than normal attrition (10% for 
employees in SSA Field Operations FY 2023, 4 points higher than 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
historic averages).

Years of underfunding has left SSA employee benefits far behind those 
offered by other agencies. SSA is one of the only federal agencies that 
does not offer a student loan repayment benefit or childcare subsidies 
to its workforce. AFGE surveyed its members and found 76% believe their 
compensation does not reflect the importance, complexity, or volume of 
the work they perform. Employees frequently leave SSA for other federal 
agencies with better benefits and less stressful working conditions. An 
AFGE internal survey of SSA employees found that 54% of the workforce 
is considering leaving the agency in the next year. This is especially 
devastating to public service because many SSA positions require years 
of training and experience to become efficient. To improve public 
service, it is vital that SSA be able to compete with other federal 
agencies for the best workers. AFGE recommends recruitment and 
retention pay for employees to incentivize them to stay in their SSA 
career. AFGE also recommends bilingual differential pay to recruit and 
retain bilingual workers that offer undeniable cost savings and 
efficiency to SSA and on par with the private sector that offers 5-20% 
of base pay to multilingual employees after testing criteria are met.

Commissioner Martin O'Malley's confirmation has been a shot in the arm 
at the agency, where he has already enacted common sense reforms to 
improve efficiency and employee morale. He identified ways to afford 
employees more flexibility to stay productive on the job while also 
allowing managers to have more employees on hand to serve the public. 
But he can only do so much without the support of Congress. Last 
December, the Senate overwhelmingly confirmed Martin O'Malley to be 
SSA' Commissioner. It is now vital for you to support him and the 
public SSA serves by supporting the funding needed to modernize the 
agency.

Many of our older workers remember when SSA used to be one of the best 
places to work in the federal government and was properly resourced. If 
funding kept up with inflation since FY 2010, SSA's current budget 
would be nearly $16.5 billion.\6\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \6\ Calculated using $11,447 (million) in FY 2010 Funding 
(www.ssa.gov/budget/assets/materials/2011/2011FullJustification.pdf) 
then using DOL's inflation adjustment calculator (https://data.bls.gov/
cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl).

President Biden requested $15.4 billion for SSA for FY 2025, an 
increase of $1.3 billion or 9% over the 2-year period since FY 2023. 
This investment would improve public service and is an important first 
step in restoring the agency's staffing levels, which have reached 
record lows. However, even this increase barely keeps up with 
inflation. For example, Social Security found inflation to be 9.1 
percent over the most recent 2-year period (5.9% in 2022 + 3.2% in 
2023). At a minimum, Congress must meet the President's modest proposed 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
increase or else service at the agency will continue to deteriorate.

Not only should Congress fully fund the President's budget request; it 
should explore other ways to increase agency efficiency. In the 
Inflation Reduction Act, Congress gave the Internal Revenue Service 
(IRS) a much needed injection of funding through the creation of an $80 
billion fund that could be spent down over the next 10 years. A $20 
billion fund could allow Commissioner O'Malley to modernize SSA and 
restore the agency's ability to serve the public. SSA also suffers by 
being subject to budget spending caps, despite the fact it has a 
dedicated revenue stream from FICA taxes and is supposed to be funded 
from the Trust Fund. Using the trust fund to bolster service could be 
done without any budgetary impact.

AFGE thanks you for holding this hearing on the Social Security 
Administration's budget and for considering our recommendations on 
behalf of this dedicated workforce. We urge you to fully fund SSA and 
look forward to working with the Committee to best serve the American 
public. If you have further questions about any of these issues, please 
contact Jeff Cruz at jeff.cruz@afge.org.

                                 ______
                                 
                   Center on Capital & Social Equity

                       https://inequalityink.org/

                        Statement of Karl Polzer

_______________________________________________________________________

  Could long-term Treasury bonds and Fed financing help close Social 
                      Security's funding gap? \1\
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    \1\ https://inequalityink.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/Fed-and-
debt-financing-could-they-help-Social-Security-March-12-2024-.pdf.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                Summary

Besides facing a major long-term funding shortfall, Social Security is 
putting increased pressure on federal spending and pushing up annual 
deficits. Spending down Social Security reserves requires the Treasury 
to sell bonds. As the program moves toward debt financing organically, 
the paper below explores the possibility of adding long-term public 
debt and assistance from the Federal Reserve Bank as tools to deal with 
Social Security's financial shortfall. Experts differ widely on whether 
increased debt or general fund financing would be a positive change. 
Findings include:

    -  A related and deeper problem than how to structure Social 
Security's funding is demographic. The U.S. is not producing enough 
children or allowing sufficient immigration to build the type of 
workforce needed to sustain Social Security's current level of 
benefits.
    -  Bonds with longer terms than currently issued could help finance 
Social Security while benefiting private pension plans and insurance 
products under certain conditions. But the market for them may be 
limited.
    -  There are several ways Congress could provide liquidity or 
short-term funding for Social Security if needed.
    -  Increased levels of debt financing could affect legal and 
procedural protections for Social Security beneficiaries now receiving 
"entitlements" under the budget rules for mandatory spending.
    -  Proposals to channel Social Security funds into the stock market 
would significantly increase the amount of money Congress would have to 
raise through debt or taxes. One pot of funds would be needed to deal 
with the current Social Security shortfall, and another needed for 
stock purchases to fund the program in the future.
    -  The longer policymakers wait to deal with Social Security's 
funding problem, the more likely some kind of debt financing may be 
needed to maintain the program in the future.

      Contact: kpolzer1@verizon.net

  Could long-term Treasury bonds and Fed financing help close Social 
                        Security's funding gap?

             Karl Polzer, Center on Capital & Social Equity

  The author would like to thank Stephen Goss, William Emmons, Henry 
 Aaron, Desmond Lachman, John Lowell, and Rusty Toler for comments and 
      suggestions. They are in no way responsible for the paper's 
                             shortcomings.

The upcoming annual 2024 Social Security Trustees Report will likely 
echo previous warnings. The trustees last report,\2\ released almost a 
year ago, cautioned that, unless Congress changes the law, Social 
Security will only have enough money to pay about 80% of current 
benefits by 2034. That is when the program's reserves run dry, and it 
can only pay out what Social Security taxes bring in.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \2\ https://www.ssa.gov/oact/TR/2023/index.html.

The program's actuaries calculate that long-term solvency will require 
raising Social Security tax revenues by one-third or reducing benefits 
\3\ by one-fourth--or negotiating a combination of the two approaches. 
They project Social Security's 75-year deficit is about 1.3% of GDP. 
When the 2023 report was released, U.S. GDP was $24 trillion, 1.3% of 
which equaled about $388 billion. Multiply by 75 years and you get 
about $30 trillion as a rough estimate of the long-term funding gap. 
Social Security's annual cost is forecast to increase from 5.2% of GDP 
in 2023 to 6.3% in 2076--after the Baby Boom generation \4\ has passed 
away--and then decline to 6.0% by 2097.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \3\ https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/social-security-cuts-
proposals-from-3-politicians-could-slash-your-benefits/ar-
BB1igSIM?ocid=msedgntp&pc=HCTS&cvid=0fe558e4cc614c40a1c75
ea2d1b1dafe&ei=29.
    \4\ https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/publications/
2014/demo/p25-1141.pdf.

This paper explores the possibility of adding long-term public debt and 
assistance from the Federal Reserve Bank as tools to deal with Social 
Security's financial shortfall for several reasons. Though falling 
``outside the box'' of conventional policy analysis, long-term debt 
could lessen the short-run pain of payroll tax increases or benefit 
cuts otherwise needed to balance its books. This policy approach is not 
a personal preference.\5\ I am not advocating for it. In order to 
evaluate it, I sought comments from experts in Social Security policy, 
actuarial science, economics, and the Fed and include some below.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \5\ https://inequalityink.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/02/CCSE-work-
on-Social-Security-and-retirement-savings-updated-Jan-2024.pdf.

One motivation for exploring debt financing was trying to push some of 
the cost of what is generally believed to be a ``bulge'' in Baby Boomer 
retirees to later generations. As discussed below, expert review of the 
article proved this assumption to be questionable at best. The number 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
of Boomer births turns out to be more of a blip than a bulge.

Perhaps the strongest reason to explore debt financing is that it is 
already under way in an operational sense. As a result of the mechanics 
of spending down its reserves, Social Security already is moving toward 
financing its shortfall with bond sales. As I pointed out \6\ last 
year, after almost 40 years of rendering a surplus, Social Security's 
revenues dropped below expenditures in 2021. As a result, the federal 
government has had to raise an additional $56 billion in 2021, $22 
billion in 2022, and an estimated $53 billion in 2023 to pay promised 
benefits. Social Security's annual funding shortfall is projected to 
reach $378 billion in 2032 (unadjusted for inflation) just before 
reserves run dry. (A thorough description of trust fund's history and 
function can be found in ``Social Security Cash Flows and Reserves''\7\ 
by David Pattison, and a brief one here.\8\)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \6\ https://inequalityink.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/Senate-
Budget-Committee-Social-Security-hearing-statement-7-12-2023.pdf.
    \7\ https://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/ssb/v75n1/v75n1p1.html.
    \8\ https://www.ssa.gov/OACT/ProgData/fundFAQ.html.

Because the entire federal government is spending more than it takes 
in, drawing down Social Security reserves adds to current budget 
deficits. The government needs to raise additional funds to use Social 
Security reserves because they are, in effect, legally binding IOUs 
from one part of the government to another not backed up by marketable 
assets. Once the reserves are depleted, the government will need 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Congressional authority to tap new sources of revenue.

I hypothesized that long-term bonds might be able to help Social 
Security in many ways. If Congress, for some reason, waited until the 
last minute to act on the shortfall, they could help provide short-term 
funding and liquidity to prevent a sudden drop in benefits. Bonds could 
also be a significant part of a long-term financing solution.

For the sake of experiment, assuming U.S. GDP averages $30 trillion 
over the next 75 years, Social Security would need roughly $400 billion 
a year in additional funding. What would be the impact if the 
government financed about half of that amount ($200 billion) a year 
through long-term debt?

While financing experts no doubt could come up with better ways to 
engineer this, I offered a couple of options. Congress could authorize 
the Treasury to sell special 50-year to 100-year bonds to raise $200 
billion (or whatever amount decided) each year and send the cash to the 
Social Security trust fund, which, in turn, would carry an obligation 
to repay the rest of the government when the bonds matured. In this 
way, the rest of the federal government would be loaning Social 
Security money, just as the social insurance program provided cheap 
financing to the rest of the government for decades as it generated a 
surplus during a period when the ratio of workers to beneficiaries \9\ 
was higher.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \9\ https://www.pgpf.org/blog/2022/08/the-ratio-of-workers-to-
social-security-beneficiaries-is-at-a-low-and-projected-to-decline-
further.

The longest-term US bond now issued by the US matures in 30 years. 
Already, fourteen OECD countries,\10\ most with slowing population 
growth and increasing life spans, have issued sovereign debt with 
maturities ranging from 40 to 100 years. A handful of large private-
sector organizations including wealthy U.S. universities and health 
care networks have issued century-long debt. Buyers include pension 
funds and insurance companies managing long-term risk. Could long-term 
Social Security debt financing dovetail with future needs of private-
sector retirement funds?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \10\ https://fortune.com/2019/08/23/ultra-long-century-bonds/.

The Federal Reserve Bank could play a role in this. Much as the Fed has 
helped salvage financially distressed and insolvent banks, hedge funds, 
airlines, and insurance companies, Congress could authorize and direct 
it to acquire long-term Treasury bonds providing cash to Social 
Security as assets on its balance sheet. Under the current legal 
framework,\11\ the central bank cannot purchase Treasuries directly 
from the government. It can work with the Treasury to facilitate 
government spending. For example, through the 2020 CARES Act,\12\ 
Congress authorized sending $1,200 checks to individuals in families 
earning less than a certain amount while the Fed made sure that the 
government could finance that spending on favorable terms by buying 
large amounts of government bonds in the secondary market.\13\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \11\ https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/money_12851.htm.
    \12\ https://www.thebalancemoney.com/2020-stimulus-coronavirus-
relief-law-cares-act-4801184#
::text=The%20CARES%20Act%20sends%20a%20%241%2C200%20stimulus%20check,fo
r%20each
%20child%20under%20the%20age%20of%2017.
    \13\ https://inequalityink.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/fed-
helicopter-money-latest-9-01-20.pdf.

Asset purchases including these increased the Fed's balance sheet by 
$7.8 trillion \14\ between September 2008, just before the acute phase 
of the financial crisis, and the end of 2022 after the central bank 
stimulated the Covid-impaired economy, according to the St. Louis Fed. 
Would adding $200 billion a year in Social Security debt to its balance 
sheet be on a scale \15\ to pose significant risk to bank and financial 
system? How much would not pose a risk? Social Security debt could be 
separated from other Fed assets to minimize the impact on other 
reserves and potential risk shouldered by Fed member banks. The 
Treasury could work with the Fed to buy and sell bonds in its Social 
Security account in a way that facilitated monetary and fiscal policy 
goals as needed.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \14\ https://www.stlouisfed.org/on-the-economy/2022/january/have-
fed-asset-purchases-reshaped-bank-balance-sheets-part-1.
    \15\ https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/bonds/us-debt-
maturing-bond-yields-treasury-bills-federal-reserve-qt-2023-9.

As the US economy recovered from the effects of the COVID epidemic, the 
central bank began reducing its balance sheet gradually (quantitative 
tightening) in June 2022 by not reinvesting all the proceeds of 
maturing securities, according to the Brookings Institute.\16\ By early 
January 2024, the Fed had reduced its assets from a peak of nearly $9 
trillion to $7.7 trillion. Unless its reserves fall to much lower 
levels, their magnitude may have less of an impact on the economy than 
movements of assets on and off its balance sheet, which indirectly 
impact economic growth and interest rates.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \16\ https://www.stlouisfed.org/on-the-economy/2022/january/have-
fed-asset-purchases-reshaped-bank-balance-sheets-part-1.

One might argue that pumping billions of dollars in debt financing to 
Social Security beneficiaries each year instead of raising payroll 
taxes could have inflationary effects. On the other hand, macroeconomic 
effects might be muted because beneficiaries are expecting to receive 
benefits at that level. Most of the new money in the system would be 
used by low- and middle-income retirees and disabled persons to 
maintain current levels of consumption. Unlike loans to businesses, not 
much of it would be saved and invested in enterprises stimulating 
expansion of the money supply and resulting inflation. Minimizing the 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
need to raise taxes could be helpful if there is risk of a recession.

While the Social Security trustees frame financial solvency in terms of 
pre-funding the program for 75 years, Social Security already is 
operating on a pay-as-you-go basis relying, along with the rest of the 
federal government, on increasing levels of debt financing. Though 
policymakers could shore up Social Security financing \17\ without it, 
long-term debt could be a useful tool in helping break deadlocks to 
reach compromise over a package of tax increases and benefit cuts.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \17\ https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/?p=967219.

If Congress does not act, in about 10 years benefits for more than 
eighty million people will drop by 20%. In 2023, Social Security 
payments averaged $1,827 a month. The economic disruption of an average 
monthly cut of $365 would be enormous, not only for tens of millions of 
elder and disabled people and family members who could no longer pay 
all their bills, but also for food stores, landlords, medical 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
providers, nursing homes, and others receiving their money downstream.

The longer policymakers temporize, the more jarring the economic and 
political impacts of re-financing the program are likely to be. So, why 
not use the leading institutions providing capital to the international 
economic engine to help stabilize the nation's most valued social 
insurance program?

                           Reviewer Comments

  Debt timing, birth rates, immigration, and size of the future work 
                                 force

The most important criticism of the proposal is that its widely held 
assumption that the Baby Boomers constitute a generational ``bulge'' is 
incorrect. Social Security's chief actuary pointed out: ``Births in the 
boom period (1946-65) were not extraordinary as the birth rate (per 
woman) averaged 3.3 in that period versus about 3.0 prior. Those births 
are perceived as a boom only because that generation has since led to 
much lower birth rates (2.0 or lower). The change in the age 
distribution of the population starting in 2008 is an increasing level 
shift in the population age distribution, and not a transient bulge. 
Given this is an apparent permanent shift, borrowing will not be an 
effective answer.''

[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]


    In light of this and other comments, it would make sense to 
decrease the amount of debt in this financing ``experiment'' from 50% 
of the shortfall to somewhere in the range of 10%-25%. Baby Boomer 
parents had about 10% more children than preceding generations. We 
cannot be sure that the US birth rate will remain below two in the 
future though government actuaries and economists may be building that 
rate into their models. A complementary variable contributing to the 
size of the future workforce is the rate (and type) of immigration, 
which recently has been driving US population growth, according to new 
San Francisco Fed paper.\18\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \18\ https://www.frbsf.org/research-and-insights/publications/
economic-letter/2023/02/role-of-immigration-in-us-labor-market-
tightness/.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

                 Annual U.S. population change, 2015-22

Uncertainty about whether the workforce can grow sufficiently to 
provide the revenue to fund Social Security obligations may be the most 
significant finding in this exercise. To what degree can the native US 
population produce enough children, or its politics allow sufficient 
inflow of workers,\19\ to get the job done?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \19\ https://www.brookings.edu/articles/new-immigration-estimates-
help-make-sense-of-the-pace-of-employment/
?utm_campaign=Economic%20Studies%20Bulletin&utm_medium=email
&utm_content=297899672&utm_source=hs_email.

[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

                    Could long-term bonds help?

Assuming debt plays a future role in Social Security's financing, one 
economist commented that long-term bonds might be helpful under certain 
conditions: ``If the new bonds--call them SS bonds--were issued at 
maturities that overlap regular Treasury issuance, I suspect they would 
be expensive relative to simply issuing more Treasury debt. So your 
proposal would be a money-loser. If, however, SS bonds are issued only 
as super-long bonds, with 50 years to maturity or more, it becomes a 
question of whether their uniqueness would elicit sufficient 
specialized demand--mostly from pension funds and insurance companies, 
I suspect--to overcome their inevitable illiquidity and a hefty term 
premium. My intuition is that SS bonds of this type would be very 
expensive to issue. If there were a large demand for 50- to 100-year 
bonds, why wouldn't the Treasury have issued them already? In fact, the 
US Treasury has considered this and decided not to do it, even though 
some other countries have issued at those maturities.''

At a national retirement security conference \20\ in late February, I 
asked an actuary whose firm manages several pension plans to weigh in. 
He said that there is a market for debt instruments that can spread 
risk and manage cash flow over 75 years among pension plans, and that 
US bonds would offer more security than foreign issuance. However, 
pension fund managers already have developed a work-around using 
``derivatives'' as a substitute. It's unclear whether they would turn 
away from existing products if the US Treasury were to offer new very-
long-term bonds.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \20\ https://www.nirsonline.org/events/previous-conferences/2023-
conference-highlights/.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

                  The Fed and other sources of relief

Social Security could borrow money from other federal trust funds to 
deal with liquidity issues as it did from Medicare's beginning in 1982 
as Congress worked on reforms establishing its current financing 
scheme. If a similar scenario recurred, it is unclear whether inter-
trust-fund borrowing would be available or could provide the amount of 
money needed.

There is also precedent for Congress setting up a separate federal 
corporation to issue bonds to repay the debts of a trust fund. In 1989, 
Congress enacted \21\ such a scheme to bail out savings and loan (S&L) 
institutions that failed during the S&L crisis of the late 1980s and 
early 1990s. REFCORP issued bonds between 1989 and 1991. Over the 
course of more than 6 years, the Resolution Trust Corporation 
liquidated, bailed-out, or otherwise resolved, 747 insolvent S&Ls, and 
thrift institutions. This cost taxpayers almost $500 billion.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \21\ https://www.investopedia.com/terms/r/refcorp.asp.

Responding to a scenario involving the Federal Reserve as a potential 
market maker and long-term holder of Social Security bonds, a former 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fed economist provided these comments:

        ``Even though this flies in the face of the Fed's preferred 
        operating procedures--hold only Treasury debt that mirrors the 
        Treasury's outstanding issuance by maturity--you should mention 
        that there is precedent for what you propose. Large-scale asset 
        purchases of federal agency debt and agency mortgage-backed 
        securities made no sense from the traditional Fed perspective. 
        But (former fed chairman) Ben Bernanke made the case that the 
        Fed should prevent the mortgage market from collapsing, rather 
        than waiting for Congress to do it. If a similar emergency 
        occurred for Social Security beneficiaries, the Fed might well 
        step in again. But a much better plan would be to pay for the 
        shortfall out of government resources raised in regular 
        Treasury auctions.''

     Is debt financing of any kind a good idea for Social Security?

Reviewer reactions to using debt as a future funding source for Social 
Security ranged from strong objection to acceptance, in part stemming 
from the state of the federal budget writ large. According to an 
economist from a conservative think tank:

        ``My main reservation with your paper is that it is proposing 
        added government debt financing to be bought by the Federal 
        Reserve at a time when our public finances are already on a 
        dangerously unsustainable path. At a time of cyclical strength 
        and full employment, we are running a 6% of budget deficit. 
        According to the Congressional Budget Office, on present 
        policies we will continue to run deficits of that size for as 
        far as the eye can see. That will soon take our debt level to a 
        higher level in relation to GDP than that which we reached in 
        1945. This would seem to be inviting both a dollar crisis and a 
        move to higher inflation that would constitute an unfair tax on 
        the poor. Rather than adding to the debt problem, I think that 
        a more appropriate way to address the social security crisis is 
        through an equitable way to increase social security revenues 
        and reduce expenditures.''

Another economist predicted that Social Security would survive more or 
less intact with its shortfall covered by regular Treasury issuance. A 
third (from a left-to-center think tank) commented: ``When you refer to 
long-term borrowing, that is simply general revenues by another name, 
but under whatever name it flies, some of it would be a good idea in my 
opinion. All good, but keep in mind that depositing funds borrowed 
today is nothing more than general revenues today rather than general 
revenues tomorrow.'' In the current fiscal situation of recurring 
budget deficits, tapping into general revenues means generating more 
debt.

          Funding structure, legal and procedural protections

Many economists characterize Social Security's trust fund as a 
``fiction'' obscuring that its benefit payments are ``just another line 
item'' in the federal budget. The trust fund, however, is part of a 
matrix of legal and procedural protections for Social Security 
beneficiaries receiving ``entitlements''\22\ under the budget rules for 
mandatory spending.\23\ Unlike federal discretionary programs where 
spending levels are determined annually through appropriations, 
mandatory spending for entitlements like Social Security is open-ended, 
guaranteeing that eligible individuals receive benefits according to a 
pre-set formula. The government must allocate funds to meet the needs 
of all qualified individuals, even if spending exceeds overall 
budgetary limits \24\ set by Congress and the President. (The Social 
Security Administration's operating budget, however, is set by Congress 
in its annual appropriations process.)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \22\ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Mandatory_spending#::text=The%20bulk%20of%20
mandatory%20spending%20is%20for%20entitlement,specific%20mandatory%20pro
gram
%2C%20outlays%20are%20made%20automatically.%20.
    \23\ https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/R/R44582.
    \24\ https://policyvspolitics.org/what-is-the-debt-ceiling/.

If Congress includes general revenue in Social Security financing 
reforms, questions arise concerning whether, and to what extent, Social 
Security might retain its status as an entitlement and mandatory 
spending: Would the portion of benefits paid for by general funds 
retain this status? The portion covered by dedicated Social Security 
taxes? Could entitlement and mandatory spending status disappear 
altogether?

           Could investing in equities help Social Security?

Over the years, there have been several proposals to invest trust fund 
dollars in the stock market in order to generate higher long-term gains 
than what lending to the rest of the government can yield. Sen. Bill 
Cassidy (R-LA) recently presented \25\ the latest iteration of a Senate 
study group proposal that would both close Social Security's current 
financing gap while also setting up a separate equity fund to help 
finance Social Security decades in the future. Aside from the higher 
risk posed by equity value fluctuation, because trust fund outflow now 
exceeds inflow, this proposal would significantly increase the amount 
of money Congress would have to raise through taxes or borrow. One pot 
of funds would be needed to deal with the current shortfall, and 
another needed for stock purchases to fund Social Security in the 
future. Pre-funding Social Security is more difficult than it has been 
in the past. Before putting Social Security funds at risk in the stock 
market, proponents might consider trying it with a dedicated funding 
stream of an agency with a much smaller budget. For example, what about 
a trial run with the Securities and Exchange Commission?\26\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \25\ https://www.nirsonline.org/events/previous-conferences/2023-
conference-highlights/.
    \26\ https://rpc.cfainstitute.org/en/policy/positions/sec-funding.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

                           Final observations

While I do not necessarily favor debt financing to help close Social 
Security's financing gap, the program's current structure is putting 
increased pressure on federal spending and pushing up annual federal 
deficits. The longer policy makers wait to deal with Social Security's 
funding problem, the more likely some kind of debt financing may be 
needed to maintain the program in the future. Long-term bonds could be 
part of that solution under certain conditions but probably could not 
play a major role. A related and deeper problem facing the US than how 
to structure Social Security's funding is demographic. The country is 
not producing enough children or allowing sufficient immigration to 
build the type of workforce needed to sustain Social Security's 
promised benefits.

Karl Polzer is founder of the Center on Capital & Social Equity.

Contact: kpolzer1@verizon.net

                        Sources and references:

The Ratio of Workers to Social Security Beneficiaries Is at a Low and 
Projected to Decline Further--Peterson Foundation, https://
www.pgpf.org/blog/2022/08/the-ratio-of-workers-to-social-security-
beneficiaries-is-at-a-low-and-projected-to-decline-further.

Birth rate--Wikipedia, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birth_rate.

The 2023 OASDI Trustees Report, https://www.ssa.gov/oact/TR/2023/
index.html.

The Federal Reserve's Balance Sheet: What It Is and Why It Matters | 
Bankrate, https://www.bankrate.com/banking/federal-reserve/federal-
reserve-balance-sheet/.

FRB: Why doesn't the Federal Reserve just buy Treasury securities 
directly from the U.S. Treasury?, https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/
money_12851.htm.

Have Fed Asset Purchases Reshaped Bank Balance Sheets? Part 1--St. 
Louis Fed, https://www.stlouisfed.org/on-the-economy/2022/january/have-
fed-asset-purchases-reshaped-bank-balance-sheets-part-1.

Understanding the Federal Reserve Balance Sheet--Investopedia, https://
www.
investopedia.com/articles/economics/10/understanding-the-fed-balance-
sheet.asp#::
text=Traditionally%2C%20the%20Fed%27s%20assets%20have%20mainly%20consist

ed%20of,bonds%20have%20maturities%20of%20more%20than%2010%20years.

How Does the Fed Reduce Its Balance Sheet?--Investopedia, https://
www.investo
pedia.com/insights/how-will-fed-reduce-balance-sheet/.

U.S. Senate Budget Committee hearing, ``Protecting Social Security for 
All: Making the Wealthy Pay Their Fair Share,'' July 12, 2023, 
statement of Karl Polzer, https://inequalityink.org/wp-content/uploads/
2023/07/Senate-Budget-Committee-Social-Security-hearing-statement-7-12-
2023.pdf.

The Fed is bankrupt--The Hill, https://thehill.com/opinion/finance/
3955889-the-fed-is-bankrupt/.

How will the Federal Reserve decide when to end ``quantitative 
tightening''?--Brookings, https://www.brookings.edu/articles/how-will-
the-federal-reserve-decide-when-to-end-quantitative-tightening/
#::text=It%20began%20reducing%20its%20balance,
%249%20trillion%20to%20%247.7%20trillion.

U.S. Population Projected to Begin Declining in Second Half of 
Century--U.S. Census, https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/
2023/population-projec
tions.html.

The Baby Boom Cohort in the United States: 2012 to 2060--U.S. Census, 
https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/publications/2014/
demo/p25-1141.pdf.

The Role of Immigration in U.S. Labor Market Tightness--San Francisco 
Fed, https://www.frbsf.org/research-and-insights/publications/economic-
letter/2023/02/role-of-immigration-in-us-labor-market-tightness/.

New immigration estimates help make sense of the pace of employment | 
Brookings, https://www.brookings.edu/articles/new-immigration-
estimates-help-make-sense-of-the-pace-of-employment/
?utm_campaign=Economic%20Studies%20Bulletin&utm_
medium=email&utm_content=297899672&utm_source=hs_email.

100 Year Bonds? Here's Why ``Ultra-Long'' Bonds Have Caught on in 14 
Countries and Counting--Fortune, https://fortune.com/2019/08/23/ultra-
long-century-bonds/.

What's in the 2020 Coronavirus Relief Law (CARES Act)?--The Balance, 
https://www.thebalancemoney.com/2020-stimulus-coronavirus-relief-law-
cares-act-4801184#
::text=The%20CARES%20Act%20sends%20a%20%241%2C200%20stimulus%20check
,for%20each%20child%20under%20the%20age%20of%2017.

US Debt: $7.6 Trillion Will Mature in Next Year--a Third of the Total--
Business Insider, https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/bonds/us-
debt-maturing-bond-yields-treasury-bills-federal-reserve-qt-2023-9.

Social Security Cuts: Proposals from 3 Politicians Could Slash Your 
Benefits--MSN, https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/social-security-
cuts-proposals-from-3-politicians-could-slash-your-benefits/ar-
BB1igSIM?ocid=msedgntp&pc=HCTS&cvid=
0fe558e4cc614c40a1c75ea2d1b1dafe&ei=29.

Fed helicopter money: Could new tools allowing the Fed to pump money 
through ``the people'' make U.S. monetary policy more equitable and 
effective?--Karl Polzer, https://inequalityink.org/wp-content/uploads/
2023/07/fed-helicopter-money-latest-9-01-20.pdf.

There's a way to save Social Security, but it involves taxing the 
rich--Washington Examiner op-ed, https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/
?p=967219.

A Widening Gap in Life Expectancy Makes Raising Social Security's 
Retirement Age a Particularly Bad Deal for Low-Wage Earners--Karl 
Polzer--Society of Actuaries, https://inequalityink.org/wp-content/
uploads/2023/07/ITPI0820_hi-Res_polzer_
modified.pdf.

2023 Conference Highlights--National Institute on Retirement Security, 
https://www.nirsonline.org/events/previous-conferences/2023-conference-
highlights/.

Resolution Funding Corporation (REFCORP): Overview, https://www.investo
pedia.com/terms/r/refcorp.asp.

The world's drowning in debt--brace yourself for economic turbulence, 
https://nypost.com/2024/02/21/opinion/the-worlds-drowning-in-debt-
brace-yourself-for-economic-turbulence/.

National Deficit | U.S. Treasury Fiscal Data, https://
fiscaldata.treasury.gov/americas-finance-guide/national-deficit/.

Central Banks Need to Be Honest About Their Losses, by Willem H. 
Buiter--Project Syndicate, https://www.project-syndicate.org/
commentary/ecb-fed-deferred-asset-fudge-to-mask-excessive-losses-by-
willem-h-buiter-2024-03.

The Role of Entitlement Programs in the U.S. Federal Budget, https://
policyvspolitics.org/the-role-of-entitlement-programs-in-the-u-s-
federal-budget/.

Overview of Funding Mechanisms in the Federal Budget Process, and 
Selected Examples, https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/R/
R44582.

SEC Funding, https://rpc.cfainstitute.org/en/policy/positions/sec-
funding.

Mandatory spending--Wikipedia, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Mandatory_spend
ing#::text=The%20bulk%20of%20mandatory%20spending%20is%20for%20entitle
ment,specific%20mandatory%20program%2C%20outlays%20are%20made%20
automatically.%20.

 Center on Capital & Social Equity work on Social Security and 
retirement savings (updated January 2024), https://inequalityink.org/
wp-content/uploads/2024/02/CCSE-work-on-Social-Security-and-retirement-
savings-updated-Jan-2024.pdf.

                                 ______
                                 
                        Center for Fiscal Equity

                      14448 Parkvale Road, Suite 6

                          Rockville, MD 20853

                      fiscalequitycenter@yahoo.com

                            mbinder@umd.edu

                      Statement of Michael Bindner

Chairman Wyden and Ranking Member Crapo, thank you for the opportunity 
to address Administrator 's testimony.

General Approach

For obvious reasons, this year will be more hectic than the last. The 
budget and appropriations process need to be simple. To do this, please 
just pass a consensus caretaker budget with two draft partisan 
supplemental bills, one of which can be enacted during the Lame Duck 
Session or at the beginning of the next Congress for the president-
elect to sign upon taking office, depending on who wins. Details are 
provided in our comments to the full Ways and Means Committee on the 
HHS budget.

If such a budget is enacted, use it as the basis for spending caps for 
a new Budget Control Act. Make the targets realistic and self-enforcing 
for purposes of Appropriations Committee allocations.

Contingencies

In the event the majority in the House shifts due to early retirements 
or insurrection indictments, the Senate majority and the House minority 
should have legislation ready to enact a Public Option, including 
reconciliation instructions for the FY24 budget year. Details are 
provided in our comments to the full Ways and Means Committee on the 
HHS budget.

Any change in control will only last through the special election 
cycle; this should be the second priority. The first must be amending 
the Electoral Count Act and the jurisdiction of the Ethics Committees 
to provide for the enforcement of the Fourteenth and Twentieth 
Amendments, including provisions for removing any such disability for 
members and/or the president-elect.

The President's Budget

The submitted budget strengthens Social Security in a way that ensures 
no benefit cuts; extends solvency by asking the highest-income 
Americans to pay their fair share; and improves financial security for 
seniors and people with disabilities. These priorities have not changed 
to a great extent. We will address these proposals in the order 
presented by OMB.

Social Security 2100 is the current ``school solution'' proposed by the 
Democrats. I hope that it clears both chambers, preferably on a 
bipartisan basis. However, as I mentioned in my 2019 comments to the 
Social Security Subcommittee, we cannot stop because we have made the 
numbers work.

America Needs a Raise

Too many of the retired and disabled Americans (myself included) find 
it hard to make ends meet. The savaging of pension rights has made a 
decent retirement a rarity, as it is impossible for workers to both 
save and feed their families.

More is needed than simply reinforcing the status quo. Work must pay 
enough for workers to put money away, as the three-tooled retirement 
model requires. Note that an employee-ownership model would restore 
pensions and end the need for such furniture.

The President's proposal to restore the Child Tax Credit, which has 
already been passed by the House, is a major step in that direction. It 
is one of the two things that must be continued to meet our sacred 
trust for their retirement, as well as their present well-being.

So that no one will simply use fecundity for their incomes, minimum 
wages must be increased for present workers. Current retirement, 
survivors, disability, and unemployment insurance and minimum wage 
levels are inadequate. America needs a raise, which should be adjusted 
for inflation on an annual basis. Twice the current level, but with a 
shorter work week (and work day) would eliminate the incentive to cut 
work hours for lower wage employees to avoid paying benefits (as well 
as improvements to how healthcare is funded, which is a whole other 
subject).

Unemployment, retirement, and disability insurance should at least 
match increased minimum wage levels on a full-time basis (but assuming 
26-hour work week). This means that the minimum benefit, not the 
average, should be at least $1,600 per month.

The median benefit needs to be high enough so that no one who is 
disabled or retired requires either Food Stamps or housing subsidies to 
meet basic needs. Upwards of $2,000 per month is necessary, especially 
as the vast majority of retirees do not bring large retirement funds 
with them into old age, and certainly not into disability.

Payments to dependent children for survivors and the disabled should be 
abolished and replaced with an enhanced CTC at the $1,000 per month 
level.

To increase benefits for retirees and the disabled, consider the higher 
minimum wage rates as wage inflation and readjust all prior work 
experience by this inflation. Combined with some of the tax rate 
adjustments in the proposed Act, raising the minimum wage will increase 
future revenues enough to pay for higher benefits.

The Federal Role in Causing Inflation and Inequality

Households making under the 90th percentile have been losing ground for 
almost half a century, while incomes above that amount have increased 
on a regular basis.

The source of inequality, aside from abandoning the 91% top marginal 
tax rate, is granting raises at an equal percentage rather than by an 
equal amount. When the 91% rate was repealed, incomes were fairly 
equal, so it was not an issue.

The federal government plays an outsized role in how salaries are 
determined through percentage-based cost of living adjustments to 
government workers, beneficiaries, government contractors. The 
government can change this with the stroke of a pen. The private sector 
will follow suit with a higher minimum wage, adequate child tax credits 
(as described below) and paying individuals in training from ESL to 
community college the minimum wage to pursue their studies.

From here on in, adjust for cost of living for federal employees and 
contractors on a per dollar an hour rather than on a percentage basis 
(or dollars per month or week for federal beneficiaries). Calculate the 
dollar amount based on inflation at the median income level. No one 
gets more dollars an hour raises, no one gets less dollars per hour in 
increases. Increase the minimum wage as above and consider decreasing 
high end salaries paid to government employees and contractors. Even 
without decreases, simply equalizing raises will soon reduce 
inequality. Why is this necessary?

Prices chaise the median dollar. The median dollar of income is 
actually at the 90th percentile, rather than the 77th percentile (which 
is about where the median is). This strategy will reduce inflation in 
both the long and short terms as prices adjust to decreases in higher 
salaried income. Let me repeat this--prices chase income dollars, not 
income earners.

Raising Adequate Revenue

The President proposes that we raise the income ceiling to collect more 
money even though this would increase benefits to the wealthy. I 
propose that Congress lower the OASI tax ceiling so as to lower 
benefits with less drastic bend points, move Survivors Insurance for 
non-retirees, Health/Affordable Care Act payroll taxes and Disability 
Insurance entirely to a Subtraction VAT or Credit Invoice VAT as 
described in Attachment One--Tax Reform. A floor is also added so that 
EITC payments are no longer necessary.

The S-VAT will pay for increasing the Child Tax Credit beyond what the 
President proposes, to be distributed with pay rather than at the end 
of the year, and the higher minimum wage will end the need to subsidize 
low wage employers at the public trough.

The most important points are that, rather than raising income caps on 
payroll taxes, all value added for an employer is taxed, both labor and 
profit and, because there is no way to separate out individual income 
contributions to the tax, each employee will be credited the same 
amount--which allows for higher benefits without bend points. Such 
taxes also have no ceilings, so the S-VAT rate can be lower than both 
current law and the proposed legislation.

In 1998, when I participated in on-line discussions on Social Security 
personal accounts, I brought up the necessity of doing this. This idea 
raised the hackles of the privatizers much more than their desire to 
take advantage of riskier investment strategies. The best way to kill 
talk of private accounts is to introduce redistribution on the front 
end and give organized labor proxies to vote worker shares.

Finally, a word on Section 204 of Social Security 2100 regarding the 
Social Security Trust Fund. This is simply window dressing. The reality 
is that any trust fund balances must still be loaned to the Treasury 
and reimbursed with general income tax revenues or additional 
borrowing.

In our first submission to Congress in May of 2010, we addressed Trust 
Fund reimbursement issues. They are particularly applicable given the 
proposed funding increases in the subject legislation (which, if 
passed, would continue to have workers subsidize lower income tax rates 
for the few). They remain especially true today.

When Social Security was saved in the early 1980s, payroll taxes were 
increased to build up a Trust Fund for the retirement of the Baby Boom 
generation. The building of this allowed the government to use these 
revenues to finance current operations, allowing the President and his 
allies in Congress to honor their commitment to preserving the last 
increment of his signature tax cut.

This trust fund is now coming due, so it is entirely appropriate to 
rely on increased income tax revenue to redeem them. It would be 
entirely inappropriate to renege on these promises by further extending 
the retirement age, cutting promised Medicare benefits or by enacting 
an across the board increase to the OASI payroll tax as a way to 
subsidize current spending or tax cuts.

Increasing Affordable Housing Supply to Reduce Housing Costs

We disagree with the President's proposed subsidies. The best cure for 
housing affordability is higher income. The President's budget is on 
the right track regarding the Child Tax Credit. I would treble down on 
his amounts and distribute these funds through Old-Age, Survivors, 
Disability and Unemployment Insurance payouts or with wages.

Urban renewal, which relocates poor and largely non-white people, leads 
to redevelopment that chases the 90th percentile. The tax incentives in 
the President's budget are exactly the wrong approach. Instead, reform 
the entire tax system so that most families do not have to file income 
taxes. By most, I mean 99%.

A Radical Change to Entitlement Spending

This is a new idea that deserves mention, just to think about for the 
future. There are many proposals to maintain incomes as technology eats 
jobs (although ChatGPT is not the demon we thought it was). Among them 
are a social credit payment, Kelso and Adler's Two Factor theory and 
Len Burman's proposal for a Universal Earned Income Tax Credit. The 
last makes the second-tier economy permanent where now it is simply an 
ad hoc affair. It also does nothing for those with inadequate training.

Disability Insurance is hard to get and this dissuades getting off, 
regardless of programs such as the Ticket to Work. Making it easier to 
get some kind of benefit after normal unemployment without a disability 
filing and the associated lawsuit will encourage work and end reporting 
requirements to claim extra income. When income appears in the system 
above a certain level, give notice that benefits will stop--and an 
added bonus for doing so.

There is a large leaky bucket in social services at large and for 
disability insurance in particular, employing an army of social workers 
who would rather be doing client care than pushing paper and making 
determinations of whether the employer or employer was responsible for 
job loss and whether a family is entitled to benefits or not. There is 
another army of lawyers who fight disability claim denials and tax 
preparers (and revenue agents) that process earned income tax credit 
claims.

There is another army of tax avoidance professionals whose main product 
is tax minimization for upper middle class and wealthy families by 
selling retirement accounts and whole life policies (on commission).

There is yet another army fighting a losing battle against homelessness 
with public housing and hard to get subsidies, with another who 
capitalize on these programs by offering substandard housing.

These armies include taxpayers in their battle plans. We can redirect 
these efforts with a few simple changes.

Unemployment and disability insurance can be ``no fault'' and paid 
automatically with a few simple steps to minimize fraud (multiple 
collections). They also need to pay more, as does baseline Social 
Security (which 80 percent of retirees rely on as their soul income).

Children can be provided for without Food Stamps or EITC paperwork or a 
parent on disability, or by being diagnosed themselves.

The system can also end the exploitation of the ``working poor'' who, 
with remedial education can learn themselves out of poverty to the 
extent that they are able, and who require a low tier economy that 
provides cheap goods and convenience food. The thing that gets in the 
way is the opportunity cost of not working to go to school. Including 
taking ESL.

Long-term unemployment insurance is offered as an option. There should 
not be an end date and should equal what is paid for a full-time, 
minimum wage job. This rate can be set at the level paid to retirees, 
as this level of income is at about that level anyway.

A stipend at this level can also be paid to students who are old enough 
to work through college or technical training--with all such training 
and education provided free of charge, ending the need for student 
loans and other grants and the process for administering them.

A refundable child tax credit, paid with wages, stipends or benefits 
ends the need for the EITC, SNAP, TANF and disability and survivor 
payments funded through Social Security.

Unemployment benefits are intended as an incentive to keep staff, 
although avoiding them has resulted in a wasteful system of punitive 
human resource policies to fire people for cause. Giving employers a 
refundable offset mitigates these incentives and results in their 
referral to other payers, especially schools, who would take over plan 
administration (rather than having government do so).

The main question is always how to pay for high Social Security, 
disability and unemployment benefits? The most appropriate way to pay 
some of it is an employer-paid subtraction VAT or net business receipts 
tax at the federal and state levels, with offsets to fund education and 
stipends for current and potential employees, as well as their children 
and the children of current employees. Ideally, what is collected by 
the government and redistributed will be zero.

The other part of the funding is a goods and services (value added) tax 
to take over funding the employer contribution for Social Security, as 
well as long-term unemployment insurance.

The state-level S-VAT would fund education and related stipends and 
child credits (again, with offsets).

Individual employee FICA taxes will fund additional payments to 
retirees over and above long-term unemployment insurance levels.

Personal and corporate income taxes will be abolished for all but the 
top 1% as part of the deal. To replace capital gains taxes, an asset 
value-added tax will be levied for each transaction (explained 
elsewhere).

To avoid the abuse of keeping people on payroll who do nothing, 
refundable portions (paid by government) of offsets will be limited to 
S-VAT + GST collections.

To review the bidding, the list of government functions abolished in a 
radical reform include punitive (rather than no-fault) unemployment 
insurance, temporary assistance to needy families (and its replacement 
with real education), disability insurance, the complicated earned 
income tax credit, supplemental nutrition assistance, inheritance 
taxes, employer paid FICA and personal and corporate taxation, as well 
as the associated private sector costs, housing subsidies and the need 
to lobby for services for the poor.

Thank you for the opportunity to address the committee. We are, of 
course, available for direct testimony or to answer questions by 
members and staff.

    Attachment--Tax Reform, Center for Fiscal Equity, March 24, 2023

Synergy: The President's Budget for 2024 proposes a 25% minimum tax on 
high incomes. Because most high-income households make their money on 
capital gains, rather than salaries, an asset value-added tax replacing 
capital gains taxes (both long and short term) would be set to that 
rate. The top rate for a subtraction VAT surtax on high incomes (wages, 
dividends and interest paid) would be set to 25%, as would the top rate 
for income surtaxes paid by very high-income earners. Surtaxes 
collected by businesses would begin for any individual payee receiving 
$75,000 from any source at a 6.25% rate and top out at 25% at all such 
income over $375,000. At $450,000, individuals would pay an additional 
6.25% on the next $75,000 with brackets increasing until a top rate of 
25% on income over $750,000. This structure assures that no one games 
the system by changing how income is earned to lower their tax burden.

Individual payroll taxes. A floor of $20,000 would be instituted for 
paying these taxes, with a ceiling of $75,000. This lower ceiling 
reduces the amount of benefits received in retirement for higher-income 
individuals. The logic of the $20,000 floor reflects full-time work at 
a $10 per hour minimum wage offered by the Republican caucus in 
response to proposals for a $15 wage. The majority needs to take the 
deal. Doing so in relation to a floor on contributions makes adopting 
the minimum wage germane in the Senate for purposes of Reconciliation. 
The rate would be set at 6.25%.

Employer payroll taxes. Unless taxes are diverted to a personal 
retirement account holding voting and preferred stock in the employer, 
the employer levy would be replaced by a goods and receipts tax of 
6.25%. Every worker who meets a minimum hour threshold would be 
credited for having paid into the system, regardless of wage level. All 
employees would be credited on an equal dollar basis, rather than as a 
match to their individual payroll tax. The tax rate would be adjusted 
to assure adequacy of benefits for all program beneficiaries.

High-income Surtaxes. As above, taxes would be collected on all 
individual income taxes from salaries, income and dividends, which 
exclude business taxes filed separately, starting at $400,00 per year. 
This tax will fund net interest on the debt (which will no longer be 
rolled over into new borrowing), redemption of the Social Security 
Trust Fund, strategic, sea and non-continental U.S. military 
deployments, veterans' health benefits as the result of battlefield 
injuries, including mental health and addiction and eventual debt 
reduction.

Asset Value-Added Tax (A-VAT). A replacement for capital gains taxes 
and the estate tax. It will apply to asset sales, exercised options, 
inherited and gifted assets and the profits from short sales. Tax 
payments for option exercises, IPOs, inherited, gifted and donated 
assets will be marked to market, with prior tax payments for that asset 
eliminated so that the seller gets no benefit from them. In this 
perspective, it is the owner's increase in value that is taxed. As with 
any sale of liquid or real assets, sales to a qualified broad-based 
Employee Stock Ownership Plan will be tax free. These taxes will fund 
the same spending items as high income and subtraction VAT surtaxes. 
There will be no requirement to hold assets for a year to use this 
rate. This also implies that this tax will be levied on all eligible 
transactions.

The 3.8% ACA-SM tax will be repealed as a separate tax, with health 
care funding coming through a subtraction value-added tax levied on all 
employment and other gross profit. The 25% rate is meant to be a 
permanent compromise, as above. Any changes to this rate would be used 
to adjust subtraction VAT surtax and high-
income surtax rates accordingly. This rate would be negotiated on a 
world-wide basis to prevent venue seeking for stock trading.

Subtraction Value-Added Tax (S-VAT). Corporate income taxes and 
collection of business and farm income taxes will be replaced by this 
tax, which is an employer paid Net Business Receipts Tax. S-VAT is a 
vehicle for tax benefits, including:

      Health insurance or direct care, including veterans' health care 
for non-
battlefield injuries and long-term care.
      Employer-paid educational costs in lieu of taxes are provided as 
either 
employee-directed contributions to the public or private unionized 
school of their choice or direct tuition payments for employee children 
or for workers (including ESL and remedial skills). Wages will be paid 
to students to meet opportunity costs.
      Most importantly, a refundable child tax credit at median income 
levels (with inflation adjustments) distributed with pay.

Subsistence-level benefits force the poor into servile labor. Wages and 
benefits must be high enough to provide justice and human dignity. This 
allows the ending of state administered subsidy programs and 
discourages abortions, and as such enactment must be scored as a must 
pass in voting rankings by pro-life organizations (and feminist 
organizations as well). To assure child subsidies are distributed, S-
VAT will not be border-adjustable.

As above, S-VAT surtaxes are collected on all income distributed over 
$75,000, with a beginning rate of 6.25%. replace income tax levies 
collected on the first surtaxes in the same range. Some will use 
corporations to avoid these taxes, but that corporation would then pay 
all invoice and subtraction VAT payments (which would distribute tax 
benefits). Distributions from such corporations will be considered 
salary, not dividends.

Credit Invoice Value-Added Tax (CI-VAT). Border-adjustable taxes will 
appear on purchase invoices. The rate varies according to what is being 
financed. If Medicare for All does not contain offsets for employers 
who fund their own medical personnel or for personal retirement 
accounts, both of which would otherwise be funded by an S-VAT, then 
they would be funded by the I-VAT to take advantage of border 
adjustability.

CI-VAT forces everyone, from the working poor to the beneficiaries of 
inherited wealth, to pay taxes and share in the cost of government. As 
part of enactment, gross wages will be reduced to take into account the 
shift to S-VAT and CI-VAT, however net income will be increased by the 
same percentage as the CI-VAT. Inherited assets will be taxed under A-
VAT when sold. Any inherited cash, or funds borrowed against the value 
of shares, will face the I-VAT when sold or the A-VAT if invested.

CI-VAT will fund domestic discretionary spending, equal dollar employer 
OASI contributions, and non-nuclear, non-deployed military spending, 
possibly on a regional basis. Regional CI-VAT would both require a 
constitutional amendment to change the requirement that all excises be 
national and to discourage unnecessary spending, especially when 
allocated for electoral reasons rather than program needs. The latter 
could also be funded by the asset VAT (decreasing the rate by from 
19.25% to 13%).

Carbon Added Tax (C-AT). A Carbon tax with receipt visibility, which 
allows comparison shopping based on carbon content, even if it means a 
more expensive item with lower carbon is purchased. C-AT would also 
replace fuel taxes. It will fund transportation costs, including mass 
transit, and research into alternative fuels. This tax would not be 
border-adjustable unless it is in other nations, however in this case 
the imposition of this tax at the border will be noted, with the U.S. 
tax applied to the overseas base.

                                 ______
                                 
                Statement Submitted by Daniel L. Hatcher

                 University of Baltimore School of Law

                    Saul Ewing Civil Advocacy Clinic

                          1420 N. Charles St.

                        Baltimore, MD 21201-5779

                            T: 410-837-5706

                            F: 410-837-4776

    Thank you to the Chair and Members of the Committee for holding 
this hearing regarding the Social Security Administration's budget and 
practices. I submit this statement for the record regarding questions 
raised to the new Commissioner of the Social Security Administration 
(SSA), addressing harmful state agency practices of taking foster 
children's SSI and OASDI (survivor) benefits.

    Across the country, child welfare agencies have been misusing SSA's 
representative payee program to take resources from vulnerable foster 
youth. Often with the assistance of private contractors, the agencies 
search for children who may be disabled or have deceased parents and 
therefore potentially eligible for SSI or survivor benefits. The 
agencies apply on the children's behalf and then take control of the 
funds by applying to become the children's representative payee. Then, 
although the agencies' core purpose is to serve and promote the welfare 
of children, the agencies divert the children's money to government 
revenue rather than using the funds for the children's individualized 
needs and best interests as intended. The agency rationale is to pay 
back the cost of foster care, but children have no legal obligation to 
pay for their own care. And all of this is usually done without telling 
the children or the children's legal advocates. Disabled children 
desperately needing more help are never told they have SSI benefits 
that the agencies are taking. Foster children traumatized by their 
parents' deaths are not told their parents were able to leave them 
survivor benefits, as the agencies take the funds--depriving the 
children of using their own money to help themselves and stripping the 
children of the invaluable emotional connection the benefits could have 
provided to their deceased parents.

    For over 20 years, I have been engaged in research, scholarship, 
and advocacy regarding this and interrelated poverty issues.\1\ I was 
encouraged to hear SSA's Commissioner, Martin O'Malley, respond to 
excellent questions from Senator Elizabeth Warren--indicating he wants 
SSA to better protect foster children's benefits. Similarly, in his 
testimony before the House's Joint Social Security and Work & Welfare 
Subcommittee Hearing held on March 21, 2024, Commissioner O'Malley 
indicated he wants SSA to use its existing powers to better protect 
foster children's benefits--so they actually help the children.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \1\ E.g, Daniel L. Hatcher, Foster Children Paying for Foster Care 
(https://scholarworks.law.ubalt.edu/all_fac/283/), 27 Cardozo L. Rev. 
1797 (2006); Purpose vs. Power: Parens Patriae and Agency Self-Interest 
(https://scholarworks.law.ubalt.edu/all_fac/285/), 42 N. Mex. L. Rev. 
159 (2012); The Poverty Industry: The Exploitation of America's Most 
Vulnerable Citizens, NYU Press (June 21, 2016); Stop Foster Care 
Agencies from Taking Children's Resources (https://
www.floridalawreview.com/article/89240-stop-foster-care-agencies-from-
taking-children-s-resources/stats/all/pageviews), 71 Florida Law Rev. 
Forum 104 (2019).

    In support of Commissioner O'Malley's indicated efforts, I am 
attaching legal memorandums that I previously provided to leadership at 
SSA and the Administration for Children and Families--at their 
request--summarizing existing authority of both agencies to stop state 
agencies from taking foster children's SSA benefits. Again, thank you 
for your attention to these important matters.

                         Memorandum in Support

To:        Social Security Administration

From:      Daniel Hatcher, Professor of Law, University of Baltimore 
School of Law

Re:        POMS Clarification of Representative Payee Fiduciary Role

Date:      October 27, 2021

    Thank you for the opportunity to discuss concerns regarding how 
state and county child welfare agencies are misusing foster children's 
Social Security benefits (including SSI and OASDI). During our meeting 
on October 21, 2021, SSA requested a memorandum in support of suggested 
clarification in POMS regarding representative payees' fiduciary role. 
The following provides the needed clarification and summarizes the 
legal framework necessitating the clarification.

Suggested Clarification:

    Add the following or similar language to POMS GN 00602.001 (Use of 
Benefits): ``When a child has been placed in foster care or other out-
of-home care in the custody or care of a child welfare agency, the 
child's current maintenance needs are provided and paid for by the 
agency. Thus, the representative payee may not use the child's benefits 
to pay or reimburse the costs of care, and, consistent with the 
fiduciary role, the represented payee must conserve or invest benefits 
on behalf of the beneficiary (using available savings mechanisms that 
are exempt from relevant asset limits) or use the benefits for other 
existing and foreseeable needs that are not already provided by the 
child welfare agency.''

Why Clarification is Necessary:

    Under current practices, state foster care agencies seek out 
children who are disabled or have deceased parents, apply for Social 
Security SSI or OASDI benefits and apply to take control of the 
children's benefits as representative payee--all usually without 
notifying the children or their legal representatives. Then, once the 
agencies assume the fiduciary obligation as representative payee, the 
agencies use the children's benefits to reimburse themselves for agency 
costs that children have no legal obligation to reimburse (and that the 
state agencies are legally obligated to provide and pay for). Often, 
revenue maximization contractors help with the entire process.

    The child welfare agencies' appropriation of children's SSI and 
OASDI benefits could not be a clearer violation of their fiduciary 
oblations. ``There is no equitable principle more firmly established in 
our jurisprudence than that a fiduciary is under a duty of loyalty to 
his beneficiaries and cannot use the property of a beneficiary for his 
own purposes.'' Gianakos, Ex'r v. Magiros, 238 Md. 178, 185-86 (1965). 
The agencies incorrectly rationalize their breach of fiduciary 
obligation by claiming they can use foster children's SSI and OASDI 
benefits to reimburse ``current maintenance'' costs that the state 
agencies have paid for. As summarized below, the child welfare agencies 
are purposefully misinterpreting federal law.

    The Social Security Act requires representative payees to act as 
fiduciaries, to use SSI and OASDI funds for the beneficiary's ``use and 
benefit'' and in a manner that they determine is in the beneficiary's 
best interest. 42 U.S.C. Sec. 405(j); 20 CFR Sec. 404.2035(a) 
(``representative payee has a responsibility to [u]se the benefits 
received on your behalf only for your use and benefit in a manner and 
for the purposes he or she determines . . . to be in your best 
interests . . .''). This requirement is reiterated in the Social 
Security Administration's policy manual, the Program Operations Manual 
System (``POMS''). According to the POMS, a representative payee must 
exercise individualized discretion for each child beneficiary and apply 
the benefits ``in the best interests of the beneficiary, according to 
his/her best judgment. . . .'' (POMS GN 00602.001 (Use of Benefits).

    Within this framework, the payee/fiduciary can use the benefits to 
pay for current maintenance needs if those needs are not being provided 
for elsewhere. However, if current maintenance costs are already paid 
for, as in the circumstance of children in the custody of child welfare 
agencies, then the payee must either conserve the benefits or use the 
benefits for other foreseeable needs not already paid for by the 
agency. POMS GN 00602.001 (Use of Benefits) (``A payee must use 
benefits to provide for the beneficiary's current needs such as food, 
clothing, housing, medical care and personal comfort items, or for 
reasonably foreseeable needs. If not needed for these purposes . . . 
the payee must conserve or invest benefits on behalf of the 
beneficiary . . .'') (emphasis added). See also, POMS GN 00602.001 (Payee 
Responsibilities and Duties) (``The representative payee 
responsibilities and duties are to:  meet with the beneficiary on a 
regular basis to ascertain his or her current and foreseeable needs;  
use funds in the beneficiary's best interest;  conserve benefits not 
needed for the beneficiary's current needs . . .'') (emphasis added).

    The obligations of a representative payee are therefore clear. The 
payee is a fiduciary and must exercise individualized fiduciary 
discretion in determining how to use a beneficiary's OASDI funds. The 
over-arching principle governing the exercise of discretion is to serve 
the best interests of the beneficiary. And, because the beneficiary's 
best interest is paramount, the payee's self-interests cannot be 
considered. POMS GN 00602.001 (Use of Benefits) (directing Social 
Security Administration staff to ensure that ``the payee understands 
the fiduciary nature of the relationship, and that benefits belong to 
the beneficiary and are not the property of the payee.'') (emphasis 
added).

    Foster children do not have a debt obligation to pay for their own 
care. Rather, state and federal law explicitly requires the state 
foster care agencies to pay the costs of foster care services. E.g., 
Md. FL Sec. 5-527(b)-(c) (requiring that the ``Department shall pay for 
foster care'' for all foster children). Like state laws, Title IV-E of 
the Social Security Act requires state child welfare agencies to 
provide and pay for the current maintenance costs of foster children. 
Title IV-E mandates that states ``shall make foster care maintenance 
payments on behalf of each child . . .'' 42 U.S.C. Sec. 672(a)(1) 
(emphasis added). The foster care maintenance payments must include 
``payments to cover the cost of (and the cost of providing) food, 
clothing, shelter, daily supervision, school supplies, a child's 
personal incidentals, liability insurance . . . and reasonable 
travel. . . .'' 42 U.S.C. Sec. 675(4)(A). Thus, Title IV E requires state 
agencies to pay for the current maintenance costs that the agencies are 
wrongly reimbursing with children's SSI and OASDI benefits.

    Further, Title IV-E requires states to pay their share of the costs 
of care with state funds, and Title IV-E specifically prohibits states 
from using other federal funds (including SSI and OASDI benefits) to 
defray or replace the required state expenditures. 45 CFR Sec. 75.306 
explicitly prohibits state agencies from using money other than state 
funds to pay the cost of care. The regulation even specifically 
prohibits the use of other (non-IV-E) federal funds (which includes 
Social Security Benefits) for the state costs. See also, OFFICE OF 
INSPECTOR GEN., SOC. SEC. ADMIN., HAWAII DEPT. OF HUM. SERVICES--AN 
ORG. REP. PAYEE FOR THE SOC. SEC. ADMIN., A-09-08-28045 at 5 (2008) 
(citing then 45 CFR Sec. 92.24) (concluding that a foster care agency 
``must pay its share of the foster care costs with State funds,'' that 
Federal regulations prohibit the agency ``from using a child's OASDI 
benefits to reimburse itself for the State's share of Title IV-E 
costs . . .'').

    Such structure is consistent with court decisions holding that 
foster children, as the direct beneficiaries of this federal mandate, 
have privately enforceable rights to force states to pay the foster 
care maintenance payments on their behalf:

        Each of the cited provisions similarly discusses how the state 
        must distribute benefits to each child. . . . 42 U.S.C. 
        Sec. 672(a)(1) (requiring that ``each State with a plan 
        approved under this part shall make foster care maintenance 
        payments on behalf of each child'') (emphasis added). Plainly, 
        these directives are both couched in mandatory terms and are 
        unmistakably focused on the benefitted class, i.e., foster 
        children.

Connor B. v. Patrick, 771 F. Supp. 2d 142 (D. Mass. Jan. 4, 2011). See 
also, e.g., C.H. v. Payne, 683 F.Supp.2d 865 (S.D. Ind 2010)(same). 
Given this enforceable right of foster children to force state agencies 
to pay foster care maintenance payments on their behalf, the state 
agencies cannot possibly have a countervailing ability to force the 
children to reimburse those same payments. As even further support for 
this obvious conclusion, in its training manual for organizational 
representative payees, the SSA explains that ``paying legal 
guardianship fees would not constitute proper use of benefits'' if the 
``[g]uardianship costs and fees are included as part of a state's 
support obligation to the beneficiary . . .'' SOCIAL SECURITY 
ADMINISTRATION, TRAINING ORGANIZATIONAL REPRESENTATIVE PAYEES, Unit 6, 
available at http://www.ssa.gov/payee/LessonPlan-2005-2.htm.

    In addition to misinterpreting federal law, child welfare agencies 
have also wrongly relied on the Supreme Court's decision in Washington 
State Dep't of Social & Health Services v. Guardianship Estate of 
Keffeler, 537 U.S. 371 (2003). (E. 67). In Keffeler, the Court's sole 
holding is that a state agency did not violate the anti-
attachment provision of the Social Security Act by applying children's 
Social Security benefits to state foster care costs. The Court 
concluded the anti-attachment provision was not applicable, because the 
state agencies are not creditors to the children--because the children 
owe no debt for the cost of care. The Court noted that it was not 
addressing other legal concerns with the agency practices, including 
constitutional concerns and that the agency payees are acting 
inconsistently with their fiduciary obligations under Sec. 405(j) of 
the Social Security Act. In fact, the Supreme Court explicitly 
indicated that such fiduciary concerns should be addressed by the SSA:

        Respondents also go beyond the Sec. 407(a) [anti-attachment 
        provision] issue to argue that the department violates 
        Sec. 405(j) itself, by, for example, failing to exercise 
        discretion in how it uses benefits, periodically ``sweeping'' 
        beneficiaries' accounts to pay for past care, and ``double 
        dipping'' by using benefits to reimburse the State for costs 
        previously recouped from other sources. These allegations, and 
        respondents' Sec. 405(j) stand-alone arguments more generally, 
        are far afield of the question on which we granted 
        certiorari. . . . Accordingly, we decline to reach respondents' Sec. 405(j) 
        arguments here, except insofar as they relate to the proper 
        interpretation of Sec. 407(a). Respondents are free to press 
        their stand-alone Sec. 405(j) arguments before the 
        Commissioner, who bears responsibility for overseeing 
        representative payees, or elsewhere as appropriate.

Id. at 390, n.12 (emphasis added).
    Thus, current child welfare agency practices of taking children's 
benefits to reimburse agency costs violates their fiduciary obligations 
and conflicts with the entire intended structure of the representative 
payee system. The practices necessitate clarification by the SSA in the 
POMS or elsewhere, that child welfare agencies acting as payees cannot 
use children's benefits to reimburse themselves for the costs of care.

cc: Amy Harfeld, Jill Hunter-Williams

                               Memorandum

To:         Assistant Secretary January Contreras, US Dept. Of Health & 
Human Services, Administration of Children and Families; Associate 
Commissioner Aysha Schomburg, US Dept. Of Health & Human Services, 
Administration of Children and Families, Children's Bureau.

From:      Daniel Hatcher, Professor of Law, University of Baltimore 
School of Law, Civil Advocacy Clinic.

Re:         ACF Oversight Authority and Suggested Guidance regarding 
Child Welfare Agencies' Fiduciary Role and Protecting Foster Children's 
Resources (including Social Security, VA benefits, and other 
resources).

Date:      September 5, 2022

    Thank you for the opportunity to meet on August 18, 2022, for the 
purpose of additional discussion regarding ACF's role in addressing 
ongoing concerns of how state child welfare agencies are misusing 
foster children's resources. For over 20 years, I have been engaging in 
research, scholarship, and advocacy regarding this and interrelated 
poverty issues--while simultaneously serving as an attorney and 
clinical law professor directly representing impoverished children and 
adults.

    This memorandum is consistent and supportive of requested 
administrative actions in the document provided by Amy Harfeld dated 
August 10, 2022, which was in preparation for our meeting. As we 
discussed in the meeting, the core issue of those administrative 
requests is the urgent need for ACF guidance to indicate that child 
welfare agencies must protect foster children's resources rather than 
taking them. This memorandum therefore addresses that core issue, 
outlining ACF authority and providing suggested new guidance. 
Additional support may also be provided soon regarding the related 
administrative requests in Amy Harfeld's August 10, 2022 document.

    This issue goes to the very heart of the purpose of state child 
welfare agencies--and the purpose of ACF--serving and protecting the 
best interests of children in need of care. In their current practices, 
child welfare agencies are abdicating this mission and directly harming 
children in their care by seeking out vulnerable foster youth and then 
taking their resources. Disabled children desperately needing more help 
are never told they have disability benefits that the agencies are 
taking. Foster children traumatized by their parents' deaths are not 
told their parents were able to leave them survivor benefits, as the 
agencies secretly take the funds--depriving the children of using their 
own money to help themselves and stripping the children of the 
invaluable emotional connection the benefits could have provided to 
their deceased parents. Further, the agencies in many states are also 
taking other resources from foster children, including VA benefits, 
cash assets, insurance, the children's own income, and more. For 
example, the Nebraska agency crafted a regulation so it can take 
virtually everything from foster children--even burial plots.\1\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \1\ Neb. Admin. Code, 479 NAC 2-001.08 [redacted for space].

    Almost 1 year ago, during our last meeting on this issue on 
September 28, 2021, ACF asked for a summary of authority to exercise 
oversight over child welfare agencies regarding these issues. In 
response, I provided a memorandum dated October 4, 2021, explaining the 
authority. In our recent August 18, 2022 meeting, I was encouraged to 
hear Assistant Secretary Contreras indicate support for exercising 
oversight authority to appropriately address this harmful practice. In 
response to requests and discussion during the meeting, this updated 
memorandum provides suggested new guidance and further outlines ACF 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
authority.

ACF authority and duty to ensure that state child welfare agencies 
serve children's best interests.

    Throughout the numerous federal laws and regulations regarding 
state child welfare agencies, the paramount purpose is unwavering: 
protecting and serving the best interests of children in need of care. 
And ACF in turn is the federal agency created with the purpose and 
authority to monitor and ensure that the child welfare agencies adhere 
to that mission.

    For example, 42 U.S.C. Sec. 622 requires that ``a State must have a 
plan for child welfare services which has been developed jointly by the 
Secretary and the State agency . . .'' The requirements for state plans 
focus on serving the children's best interests. And one section of plan 
requirements, for which ACF is intended to provide guidance and 
oversight, requires that the plan must ``include a description of the 
services and activities which the State will fund under the State 
program carried out pursuant to this subpart, and how the services and 
activities will achieve the purpose of this subpart.'' The ``purpose of 
this subpart'' is provided in 42 U.S. Code Sec. 621, and the very first 
listed purpose is ``protecting and promoting the welfare of all 
children.'' Similarly, in 45 CFR Sec. 1355.25 (``Principles of child 
and family services''), ACF provides clear principles that must guide 
state child welfare agencies. Below are just a few of the principles, 
directly indicating child welfare agencies should only act in the best 
interests of children and families:

    (a) The safety and well-being of children and of all family members 
is paramount . . . [redacted for space].

As listed above, one of the principles specifically requires the 
agencies to help youth in ways that improve their future self-
sufficiency--but when the agencies take the children's own resources, 
such actions directly conflict with these required principles.

    Further, additional federal law set out in 42 U.S.C. Sec. 675--
again for which ACF is intended to provide oversight and guidance--
requires child welfare agencies to develop individualized case plans 
for each child, again focused on serving the best interests of foster 
children and specifically requiring the agency to provide planning and 
services designed to help children in their future struggle for self-
sufficiency: ``services which will help such child prepare for the 
transition from foster care to a successful adulthood.'' In fact, the 
entire Chafee Foster Care Program for Successful Transition to 
Adulthood is intended to serve children's best interests in supporting 
their efforts for future self-sufficiency, but the child welfare 
agencies' actions in taking the children's resources directly undercuts 
the purpose of the program.

    Further still, though guidance regarding permanency planning and 
child well-being dated January 5, 2021 (ACYF-CB-IM-21-01), ACF 
recognizes that ``the best interests of the child is paramount'' 
[redacted for space].

    Moreover, federal agencies have stepped in repeatedly to curtail 
the racial disproportionality in the child welfare system. For example, 
a guidance letter was provided by the Department of Justice, Office of 
Civil Rights, and the Administration for Children and Families 
Compliance Section, indicating the importance ``to ensure that child 
welfare agencies are aware of their responsibilities to protect the 
civil rights of children and families in the child welfare system.''

    Thus, the paramount purpose of child welfare agencies to protect 
and serve children's best interests--and not engage in actions that are 
harmful to the children--is clear. And ACF was created with clear 
authority and purpose to provide guidance and oversight to ensure that 
child welfare agency actions do not conflict with their core mission.

ACF has authority and obligation to provide oversight to clarify that 
child welfare agencies must protect foster children's resources rather 
than taking the resources to pay agency costs.

    Appropriately addressing child welfare agencies' misuse of foster 
children's resources falls directly within ACF's authority and 
obligation to provide oversight and guidance to ensure the agencies 
serve children's best interests. To begin, all child welfare 
protections built into the federal statutory framework apply to all 
children in foster care, whether IV-E eligible or not. As ACF explains 
in existing guidance, federal law ``requires that all of the 
protections set forth therein be provided to all children in foster 
care.'' \2\ Then, 42 U.S. Code Sec. 676 provides ACF with authority and 
obligation to provide guidance and oversight to ensure child welfare 
agencies adhere to their purpose, explaining HHS/ACF ``may provide 
technical assistance to the States to assist them to develop the 
programs authorized under this part and shall periodically (1) evaluate 
the programs authorized under this part and part B of this 
subchapter . . .'' (emphasis added).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \2\ ACF Child Welfare Policy Manual, 8.3C, TITLE IV-E, Foster Care 
Maintenance Payments Program, State Plan/Procedural Requirements, 
Question 1.

    Specifically addressing children's resources, 42 U.S. Code 
Sec. 672(a) sets out a structure where the agencies are required to 
provide and pay for ``foster care maintenance payments.'' Under the 
fundamental requirement, ``[e]ach State with a plan approved under this 
part shall make foster care maintenance payments on behalf of each 
child who has been removed from the home of a relative . . .'' 
(emphasis added). Foster care maintenance is defined in 42 U.S. Code 
Sec. 675 as ``payments to cover the cost of (and the cost of providing) 
food, clothing, shelter, daily supervision, school supplies, a child's 
personal incidentals, liability insurance with respect to a child, 
reasonable travel to the child's home for visitation, and reasonable 
travel for the child to remain in the school in which the child is 
enrolled at the time of placement . . .'' As further evidence of this 
requirement, 42 U.S.C. Sec. 622 indicates agency plans must ``include a 
description of the services and activities which the State will fund 
under the State program . . . and how the services and activities will 
achieve the purpose of this subpart'' (emphasis added). So, when child 
welfare agencies take resources from children to pay state foster care 
costs, the agencies are breaching their fiduciary role in conflict with 
federal law that requires the states to provide and pay for those 
costs--with state money, not by taking the children's resources. 
Further, the agencies' harmful practice does not even provide more 
revenue to the agencies, but rather supplants required state funding 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
with the children's funds.

    Thus, the structure requires that states pay for the foster care 
maintenance for all foster children, and then the states can claim a 
federal match for children who are IV-E eligible (42 U.S. Code 
Sec. 674). In fact, 45 CFR Sec. 75.306 explicitly prohibits agencies 
from using money other than state funds to pay the cost of care. The 
regulation prohibits the use of other (non-IV-E) federal funds 
(including Social Security Benefits) for state costs. And the 
regulation also requires that the funds used to pay the state share 
must be consistent with the program objectives. If an agency takes 
children's resources for state costs, such actions are directly 
contrary to the agency's core objectives of serving children's best 
interests, including agency services that are supposed to aid the 
children in their future transition to self-sufficiency after leaving 
care (45 CFR Sec. 75.306 (3) & (5)). Further, the regulation also 
requires that the funding states use for state costs must be ``provided 
for in the approved budget when required by the HHS awarding agency.''

    Thus, ACF has authority to provide direction/clarification that 
state agencies must protect children's resources (including but not 
limited to Social Security) in a way that serves the children's best 
interests.

The authority of the Social Security Administration regarding 
representative payees does not restrict the authority of ACF to ensure 
child welfare agencies act in children's best interests and in 
compliance with federal law governing child welfare.

    SSA's authority to provide guidance regarding representative payees 
does not restrict the authority and obligation of ACF to provide 
oversight and guidance ensuring that child welfare agencies act in 
children's best interests and in compliance with federal law governing 
child welfare [redacted for space].

    I previously provided another memorandum dated October 27, 2021 to 
SSA leadership in response to their request after a meeting on October 
21, 2021. That memo provided analysis of how SSA can also issue 
clarified guidance specific to representative payees [redacted for 
space].

Recommended guidance

    ACF's Child Welfare Policy Manual provides interpretations and 
directives to agencies in all child welfare related issues. For 
example, in 8.4D question 2, ACF provides a directive regarding ``How 
should the decision to apply for SSI or title IV-E benefits be made?'' 
ACF explains that agencies must decide between seeking SSI or IV-E 
based on the child's best interests: ``Information regarding the 
benefits available under each program should be made available by the 
title IV-E agency so that an informed choice can be made in the child's 
best interest.''.

    To provide policy guidance consistent with federal law and the 
mission of ACF and child welfare agencies, ACF should consider the 
following additions and clarifications to the manual:

1. [redacted for space].
2.  Additional guidance in response to 8.4D, question 2. The suggested 
language is in bold in the excerpted answer below. The reason for this 
necessary language is to clarify that child welfare agencies must not 
use foster children's Social Security benefits or other children's 
resources to pay or reimburse the state share of foster care costs.

        Question 2. How should the decision to apply for SSI or title 
        IV-E benefits be made?

        Answer

        The difference between title XVI (SSI) and title IV-E should be 
        considered carefully by the decision maker when choosing 
        whether to apply for either or both title IV-E or SSI benefits 
        on behalf of the child. Information regarding the benefits 
        available under each program should be made available by the 
        title IV-E agency so that an informed choice can be made in the 
        child's best interest. To achieve this goal, title IV-E 
        agencies should exchange information regarding eligibility 
        requirements and benefits with local Social Security district 
        offices and establish formal procedures to refer clients and 
        their representatives to the local Social Security district 
        office for consultation and/or application when appropriate.

        To comply with their role of serving children's best interests, 
        title IV-E agencies must not use a child's SSI or other 
        resources to pay or reimburse foster care maintenance costs (as 
        defined in 42 U.S. Code Sec. 675) or state foster care costs.

3.  Additional guidance in 8.1F TITLE IV-E, Administrative Functions/
Costs, Match Requirements. The following new question and answer 
provided in bold below is necessary to clarify that child welfare 
agencies must not use foster children's Social Security benefits or 
other children's resources to pay or reimburse the state share of 
foster care costs.

        Question 6. May children's resources be used to pay the state 
        share of foster care costs?

        Answer

        No. Consistent with cost sharing requirements in 45 CFR 
        Sec. 75.306 and children's best interests, a child's resources 
        (including Social Security Benefits, VA benefits, cash assets, 
        trust accounts, insurance, inherited resources, the child's own 
        income, or any other resource or asset belonging to the child) 
        may not be used by the IV-E agency to pay or reimburse foster 
        care maintenance costs (as defined in 42 U.S. Code Sec. 675) or 
        state foster care costs, whether or not a child is eligible for 
        title IV-E.

        [redacted for space].

    Again, I sincerely thank you for your leadership at ACF, for the 
opportunity to meet, and for your indicated desire to address this 
important issue. Also, as we discussed in the meeting, I applaud ACF's 
recent improved guidance regarding child support enforcement in child 
welfare cases--which is a perfect complement to the suggested guidance 
in this memorandum. I am more than willing to talk further if helpful 
and can provide additional resources upon request.\3\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \3\ Some of my past scholarship addresses more details of this and 
related issues. E.g, Daniel L. Hatcher, Foster Children Paying for 
Foster Care (https://scholarworks.law.ubalt.edu/all_fac/283/), 27 
Cardozo L. Rev. 1797 (2006); Collateral Children: Consequence and 
Illegality at 
the Intersection of Foster Care and Child Support (https://
scholarworks.law.ubalt.edu/all_fac/288/), 74 Brooklyn L. Rev. 1333 
(2009); Purpose vs. Power: Parens Patriae and Agency Self-
Interest (https://scholarworks.law.ubalt.edu/all_fac/285/), 42 N. Mex. 
L. Rev. 159 (2012); The Poverty Industry: The Exploitation of America's 
Most Vulnerable Citizens, NYU Press (June 21, 2016); Book Chapter, 
States Diverting Funds from the Poor (https://
scholarworks.law.ubalt.edu/all_fac/1100/), in Holes in the Safety Net: 
Federalism and Poverty (Ezra Rosser, ed., Cambridge University Press 
2019); Stop Foster Care Agencies from Taking Children's Resources 
(https://www.floridalawreview.com/article/89240-stop-foster-care-
agencies-from-taking-children-s-resources/stats/all/pageviews), 71 
Florida Law Rev. Forum 104 (2019).

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
cc: Amy Harfeld, Jill Hunter-Williams, Ian Marx

                                 ______
                                 
      National Committee to Preserve Social Security and Medicare

                      111 K Street, NE, Suite 700

                          Washington, DC 20002

                              202-216-0420

                             www.ncpssm.org

              Statement of Max Richtman, President and CEO

On behalf of the millions of members and supporters of the National 
Committee to Preserve Social Security and Medicare, I am pleased to 
submit this testimony for the record in support of robust funding for 
the Social Security Administration in Fiscal Year 2025. Members of the 
National Committee come from all walks of life and every political 
persuasion. What unites them is their passion for protecting and 
strengthening Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, and the other 
programs that are so vitally important to older Americans.

The fiscal year (FY) 2025 budget recommendations submitted by President 
Biden to Congress on March 11, 2024, affirm his commitment to America's 
seniors in major ways. The budget provides funding to improve customer 
service for Social Security beneficiaries as the Social Security 
Administration (SSA) continues to grapple with service delivery 
challenges. And the President supports legislation that extends the 
solvency of the Medicare Part A Hospital Insurance trust fund, broadens 
the number of prescription drugs subject to price negotiation and 
expands Medicaid home and community-based services (HCBS). With 10,000 
baby boomers turning 65 every day--and the number of seniors projected 
to double by 2050--it's clear that this budget is mindful of the need 
to safeguard our older Americans now and into the future.

Social Security represents the foundation of income security for the 
American people. Without a solid foundation, other programs designed to 
protect workers and their families from the ravages of death, 
disability and old age simply will not be able to adequately fulfill 
their missions. The activities of the Social Security Administration 
(SSA) are at the heart of the administration of the Social Security 
program. Adequate funding for SSA is vitally important to millions of 
Americans across the country who either are receiving Social Security 
or expect to do so in the future, both to ensure that they receive the 
benefits they have earned and to maintain the public's support for this 
essential program.

Unlike most other agencies, the Social Security Administration's 
operations are not funded by general tax revenues but through Social 
Security's Trust Funds. As a result, although the money used to fund 
the agency is technically ``on budget'' for budget scoring purposes, 
SSA's operations are actually paid for by American workers and their 
employers when they make their payroll tax contributions. Rather than 
appropriating funds from the general Treasury, Congress limits the 
amount the agency can spend annually from the Trust Funds through the 
appropriations process. The long history of Agency underfunding is 
therefore especially frustrating when one considers that contributions 
from American workers have built up an almost $2.8 trillion surplus in 
the Trust Fund accounts, in addition to over $1 trillion received in 
Federal Insurance Contributions Act (FICA) contributions each year.

In 2025, SSA anticipates delivering about $1.6 trillion in direct 
payments to beneficiaries, at a remarkably low administrative cost of 
about 1 percent. The President proposes $15.402 billion for SSA's FY 
2025 appropriation for administrative expenses. This is an increase of 
$1.3 billion--9 percent--over the level enacted for the 2023 Fiscal 
Year.

At the time this testimony was written, Congress had not enacted a 
permanent appropriations' bill for SSA for FY 2024. During 
Congressional consideration of the FY 2024 Continuing Resolution, the 
Administration requested a $727 million anomaly for FY 2024, which 
would have brought SSA to an annualized funding level of $14.854 
billion. The anomaly level of funding would have helped prevent further 
service deterioration by maintaining staffing levels, increasing 
processing capacity through overtime, and funding critical information 
technology enhancements.

Unfortunately, this anomaly request was not provided by Congress. As a 
result, since October 1, 2023, SSA has been operating on essentially 
flat funding, which if made permanent, would have a severely 
detrimental effect on service and would halt the progress SSA made to 
begin improving service in FY 2023. Level funding has not covered the 
over $600 million increase in SSA's annual fixed costs such as salaries 
and rent on more than 1,500 field and hearing offices across the 
country. SSA was forced to freeze hiring during the extended Continuing 
Resolution, which has caused the agency's staffing levels to fall back 
to where they were in April 2023. SSA also significantly reduced 
overtime levels in FY 2024 compared to FY 2023, limiting one of the 
agency's most important tools for increasing processing capacity and 
supporting offices.

If SSA is forced to continue the hiring freeze and overtime limits 
throughout FY 2024, the agency anticipates it will lose over 4,500 
full-time permanent staff this fiscal year, resulting in SSA's lowest 
staffing since 1972 (55,000 staff), including about 750 fewer employees 
in National 800 Number call centers and about 2,100 fewer employees in 
field offices across the country. This loss of staff will negatively 
impact call wait times, disability timelines, and other key performance 
metrics and be felt by the people SSA serves.

SSA has approximately 500 million interactions with the public each 
year through field office visits, call centers, and other engagements. 
While they have exceptional employees dedicated to serving millions of 
people, SSA is serving 50 percent more customers with less staff than 
they had in 1995. Since FY 2010, Social Security's customer service 
budget has declined in inflation-adjusted terms by 17 percent and its 
staffing by 16 percent, while at the same time the number of SSA's 
beneficiaries has grown by 22 percent.

The long history of disinvestment in the agency's core public services 
must be reversed if the American public is to receive the services they 
have already paid for through their monthly payroll contributions. The 
solution to this growing problem is for Congress to embark on a multi-
year effort to restore adequate funding levels for SSA's operating 
budget, beginning with, at a minimum, providing the full level of 
funding requested by the President for FY 2025. If the President's 
budget request is approved by Congress, SSA intends to continue ongoing 
efforts to re-build its workforce, thus allowing SSA to process 
increasing numbers of disability claims, reduce wait times on the 
national toll-free number and begin to address the pending backlogs. 
This funding request represents a solid first step toward what will 
need to be a multi-year effort to rebuild the agency's ability to 
provide the customer service America's workers and retirees deserve and 
expect.

We support the Administration's proposal to provide additional funding 
to improve the level of service provided by SSA's toll-free telephone 
service which has suffered a decline in service delivery due to 
misguided underfunding. Perversely, over the years SSA's national toll-
free telephone service staff has declined substantially, even as call 
volume grew. The results, predictably, were more busy signals, more 
hang-ups, longer wait times and fewer calls handled. The President's 
budget provides additional resources that should enable SSA to 
significantly improve its telephone service, with a projected reduction 
in wait times on SSA's 800 Number by over 20 minutes to 12 minutes. We 
thank the Administration for proposing to strengthen the adequacy of 
this vital service which must be available as a critical lifeline for 
those who have difficulty visiting a field office in person due to age 
or disability.

Providing adequate funding is also essential to resume the process of 
eliminating the backlogs that have developed in both the Disability 
Determination Services and the Offices of Hearings Operations and is 
clearly necessary to expedite the processing of the current backlog. 
Relative to level staffing, a hiring freeze and loss of 4,500 staff in 
2024 would add an estimated 20 more days and 175,000 more cases in the 
disability backlog. The President's FY 2025 Budget request is projected 
to reduce initial disability claims wait times to an average of 215 
days, and reduce the claims backlog by 15 percent.

While the National Committee applauds the Administration's budget 
proposal, we feel compelled to point out the request is well below the 
$16.45 billion request submitted by the SSA to the Office of Management 
and Budget. We firmly believe the agency itself is better positioned to 
anticipate the funding it will need to provide the level of service the 
American people deserve from SSA than the Office of Management and 
Budget. We therefore hope Congress will provide the full requested 
level of $16.45 billion when formulating its own appropriations 
legislation for FY 2025. This is especially true considering the 
seriously insufficient funding we anticipate the agency will receive 
for FY 2024. Fully funding the agency's original request will represent 
a major step toward restoring SSA's ability to fulfill its mission.

Lastly, we applaud the President's commitment to improve and strengthen 
Social Security, and his support for raising the payroll tax cap for 
those earning over $400,000 annually. The President has made clear his 
commitment to ensuring the wealthy pay their fair share throughout his 
FY 2025 budget and we hope Congress will support his efforts. However, 
we note the absence of any specific Social Security legislative 
proposals in the President's FY 2025 budget. To address this omission, 
we urge the Congress to consider the Social Security 2100 Act, 
introduced as H.R. 4583 in the House by Representative John Larson (D-
CT) and in the Senate as S. 2280 by Senator Richard Blumenthal (D-CT), 
and the Social Security Expansion Act, S. 393 (H.R. 1046 in the House), 
legislation developed by Senator Bernie Sanders (I-VT) and 
Representative Jan Schakowsky (D-IL). These bills make important, long 
overdue improvements to the Social Security program, as well as 
strengthening the program's finances. We look forward to working with 
the Administration in enacting this important legislation.

Social Security, a critical lifeline for millions of Americans, must 
not be allowed to wither on the vine. Congress must provide adequate 
funding for this foundation of support for workers and their families. 
Accordingly, we strongly urge Congress to provide, at minimum, the 
President's budget request of $15.402 billion for FY 2025.

                                 ______
                                 
                     Social Security Administration

              Statement of Inspector General Gail S. Ennis

Introduction

Chairman Wyden, Ranking Member Crapo, and Members of the Committee on 
Finance, the Social Security Administration (SSA) faces numerous 
challenges, and the Office of the Inspector General (OIG) is committed 
to addressing those challenges through diligence and innovation to 
protect and preserve SSA's vital programs for the American people. It 
is critical for the committee to understand these challenges and how 
the President's Budget for Fiscal Year (FY) 2025 will address them.

The mission of SSA OIG is to serve the public through independent 
oversight of SSA's programs and operations. SSA OIG accomplishes that 
mission by conducting independent and objective audits, investigations, 
and reviews. Our oversight work significantly impacts the integrity, 
effectiveness, and efficiency of SSA's programs and operations.

While SSA focuses on administering programs and operations, SSA OIG 
searches for and reports systemic weaknesses in SSA's programs and 
operations and provides recommendations for program, operations, and 
management improvements. SSA OIG has consistently delivered valuable 
oversight information to SSA, the U.S. Congress, other stakeholders, 
and the public.

SSA OIG has identified and is responding to new and emerging challenges 
and threats, including pervasive imposter scams, challenges and fraud 
schemes caused by the Coronavirus (COVID-19) pandemic, and the rise of 
the latest threats and opportunities associated with cybersecurity and 
artificial intelligence (AI). In FY 2025, SSA OIG will address these 
issues timely using our available resources, all while continuing to 
meet our core mission.

President's Budget for Fiscal Year 2025

The President's FY 2025 Budget for SSA OIG requests $121.3 million in 
direct appropriations, which includes $2 million to remain available 
until expended for information technology (IT) modernization efforts. 
In addition, the budget requests that SSA transfer $19.6 million to SSA 
OIG for the direct costs of leading the jointly operated anti-fraud 
Cooperative Disability Investigations (CDI) program. These increases 
would help offset rising fixed costs; however, we continue to make 
tradeoff decisions with our resources to address emerging challenges.

The President's budget request will allow SSA OIG to perform its core 
mission of auditing and investigating SSA programs and operations. 
Further, the requested funding will allow us to take innovative steps 
forward by building our data analytics capacity, increasing data-driven 
decision-making, investing in IT and automation tools, and 
strengthening and building our workforce. These improvements will lead 
to a more nimble and responsive organization.

The Committee on Finance should be aware SSA OIG received our first 
increase in base funding in FY 2022 after receiving no increases since 
FY 2016. The recent increases by the U.S. Congress have maintained SSA 
OIG's ability meet our core responsibilities.

In FY 2023, our auditors identified $1.9 billion in questioned costs 
and $565 million in funds that could be put to better use at SSA. In FY 
2023, our investigators contributed to investigations that generated 
$179 million in monetary accomplishments through court-ordered 
restitution and recoveries, as well as projected future savings for 
SSA. Most importantly, our Return on Investment was 21-to-1 for the 
last several FYs, generating $21 in savings for every dollar the U.S. 
Congress provides SSA OIG.

Audit

As the Committee on Finance knows, SSA's workforce consists of 
approximately 60,000 people, with over 1,500 offices nationwide and 
worldwide. These employees serve millions of customers annually.

Over the last several FYs SSA OIG has moved away from the historical 
practice in the Office of Audit (OA), which required each auditor to 
complete one annual audit. Audits were scoped accordingly. After 
examining this method and reviewing previous audits, SSA OIG concluded 
the status quo approach aimed to fix errors rather than get to the root 
cause of issues identified by our auditors. SSA OIG decided to change 
that approach.

OA leadership determined SSA OIG needed to produce larger and more 
complex audits to address the root cause of the issues facing SSA. 
Rather than having auditors work on individual audits, we restructured 
the process into audit teams to allow dedicated resources for each 
audit. The revised audits engage with the Agency and focus on actual 
results. Leadership recognized the team approach would reduce the 
number of audits per year but was confident it would increase the 
quality and impact of our work. This approach was correct. For several 
FYs, while we adapted to this new approach, our auditors produced fewer 
but also more complex audits. And, today, OA has increased its 
productivity while producing more impactful audits, issuing 43 
comprehensive audit reports in FY 2023 that identified $1.9 billion in 
questioned costs and $565 million in funds that could have been put to 
better use.

OA continues working on impactful audits during FY 2024. As of January 
2024, OA has 15 reports in process related to improving the prevention, 
detection, and recovery of improper payments.

Audits Addressing Vulnerable Populations

Since October 1, 2020, OA has completed seven audits identifying 
underpayments, potential underpayments, or untimely payments of funds 
due or benefits to vulnerable populations, such as child beneficiaries, 
widows, Supplemental Security Income recipients, surviving spouses, and 
beneficiaries whose medical condition was not expected to improve. 
Potential underpayments identified in these reports totaled almost $640 
million.

OA has additional ongoing work that focuses on services provided to 
vulnerable populations. Specifically, we have work in progress to 
determine whether SSA implemented planned actions to reduce barriers to 
accessing its services. We are also looking at whether SSA follows 
policies and procedures to identify and expedite initial disability 
applications that qualify as priority cases, such as Quick Disability 
Determination, Compassionate Allowance, Terminal Illness, Military 
Casualty/Wounded Warrior/100% Permanent & Total Disability, Homeless, 
Presumptive Disability/Blindness, and Hardship cases, among others.

Some individuals cannot manage or direct the management of their 
finances because of their age and/or mental and/or physical condition. 
The U.S. Congress granted SSA the authority to appoint representative 
payees to receive and manage these beneficiaries' payments. A 
representative payee can be an individual or an organization. In 
September 2023, we reported that SSA did not take appropriate and 
timely action in response to alleged individual and organizational 
representative payees' misuse of benefits and made six recommendations 
to SSA. We continue to review issues impacting these vulnerable 
populations through in-progress work looking at the effectiveness of 
SSA controls and procedures for monitoring representative payees.

Cooperative Disability Investigation Program

SSA OIG has innovated processes to maximize our impact by expanding and 
realigning the CDI program to provide more coverage at a lower cost.

Presently, SSA OIG has 50 CDI units across the country, and we provide 
an SSA OIG investigator to run these anti-fraud units. CDI units, 
consisting of personnel from SSA, SSA OIG, state disability 
determination agencies, and state or local law enforcement, investigate 
disability fraud in SSA programs. SSA OIG worked with SSA to provide 
nationwide CDI coverage by October 2022, as the Bipartisan Budget Act 
of 2015 intended.

In areas where we could not secure a local law enforcement partner, 
such as New Hampshire, Vermont, and Maine, SSA OIG and SSA collaborated 
on two approaches to provide CDI coverage and increase investigative 
capacity. First, we created CDI Hubs by consolidating SSA OIG and SSA 
personnel to cover multiple states. In instances when a local law 
enforcement partner is not present, the SSA OIG team leader covers that 
workload until a law enforcement partner can be secured. Second, SSA 
OIG harnessed the skill sets and institutional knowledge of reemployed 
annuitants to serve as CDI investigators. For example, the South New 
England Hub, which covers Connecticut and Rhode Island, has a 
reemployed annuitant serving as an investigator to help provide CDI 
coverage for Connecticut. A total of four hub models operate across the 
country to ensure CDI coverage.

In FY 2023, CDI efforts contributed over $75 million in projected 
savings and recoveries for Social Security programs and approximately 
$94 million for other Federal and state programs. Since the program's 
inception, CDI efforts have contributed to projected savings of over $8 
billion.

The President's Budget provides $19.6 million for the CDI program. In 
previous FYs, SSA OIG has had to assign existing investigative 
personnel to the CDI program, at the expense of other non-CDI 
investigative work. SSA's appropriations language provides the 
authority for SSA to transfer a portion of its Limitation on 
Administrative Expenses funding to SSA OIG to cover the costs 
associated with operating the CDI program.

While the additional CDI funding to date has supported a higher overall 
Full Time Employee (FTE) count for our office, our count of FTEs 
dedicated to our primary mission is still lower than in FY 2015. This 
is due to increased fixed costs, such as statutory employee pay raises. 
The FY 2025 budget request provides additional flexibility within SSA 
OIG's base appropriation and allows us to restore historical staffing 
levels for critical non-CDI hires.

Finally, with the FY 2025 Budget, SSA OIG will continue to conduct 
complex and large-scale investigations, develop and leverage 
partnerships and collaborations to accomplish investigative priorities 
to permit more effective investigative efforts.

IT Modernization

The $2 million set-aside for IT Modernization is critical in SSA OIG's 
efforts to modernizing administrative applications with business 
process management solutions. This account provides for the continued 
enhancement of SSA OIG's critical administrative systems, and the 
integration of internal applications with SSA systems, which will 
enhance data sharing capabilities with external partners. This includes 
SSA's Allegation Referral Intake System and SSA OIG's Case Management 
System. Further, the account will provide for modernizing cybersecurity 
functions and enhancing SSA OIG's cybersecurity posture in response to 
evolving cybersecurity mandates and vulnerability remediation. Further, 
it will increase staffing to fill software development, project 
management, and systems security needs.

Some of the modernization projects SSA OIG is undertaking will 
facilitate 
increased/enhanced use of analytics capability. SSA OIG established the 
Business Intelligence and Analytics Division within our Office of 
Information Technology in FY 2021. This division is undertaking several 
initiatives to maximize the available resources--both human and 
technical--to enhance its data maturation for SSA OIG. This division 
possesses analytical skills in the initial phases of data analytics and 
has supported SSA OIG investigative and audit efforts by expediting 
data analyses that used to take months to complete manually. Finally, 
in FY 2023, SSA OIG established an AI Task Force to conduct a critical 
study and review on how AI will assist the work of the Office of Audit 
and the Office of Investigations, but also to look at the challenges 
posed with more sophisticated AI-generated scams.

Examining and Leveraging AI

Public and private sector entities will continue to explore using AI 
technology as a tool to improve operations. As AI advances, 
governmental agencies, including SSA, will seek to leverage this 
emerging technology. While the use of AI has the potential to improve 
customer service and create efficiencies, AI could also be used to 
create and exploit synthetic identities to direct millions of dollars 
away from deserving SSA beneficiaries and recipients, similar to 
pandemic and imposter schemes.

In FY 2023, SSA OIG established an internal AI task force comprised of 
investigators, auditors, IT specialists, and lawyers to confront these 
issues. In FY 2025, SSA OIG's oversight responsibilities will increase 
significantly in this area to help identify and minimize 
vulnerabilities in agency systems, security, and programs. Significant 
investments will be required in hardware, software, and training to 
ensure SSA OIG personnel have the appropriate tradecraft to investigate 
AI-enabled criminal activity, protect vulnerable persons, and provide 
Federal and state prosecutors with the forensic data needed to 
successfully prosecute fraud against SSA.

In recent years, SSA OIG identified best practices and lessons learned 
from analytical and investigative work done combatting pandemic- and 
imposter-related fraud. These will serve as the foundation for 
developing additional tools and investigative techniques.

Coronavirus (COVID-19) Pandemic Fraud

One of the issues that has been of interest to the United States 
Congress is combating Coronavirus (COVID-19) pandemic fraud. SSA OIG's 
Office of Investigations has played a critical role in Federal 
investigations related to the misuse of Federal pandemic relief funds. 
Using stolen identities and Social Security numbers was critical to 
pandemic relief-related fraud. The misuse of SSNs and identity theft in 
furtherance of fraud schemes related to Coronavirus Aid, Relief, and 
Economic Security Act programs, including the Paycheck Protection 
Program, Pandemic Unemployment Assistance, and Economic Injury and 
Disaster Loans, is no exception.

Addressing pandemic fraud required SSA OIG to shift workloads within 
our base appropriations. In FY 2023, SSA OIG contributed to 100 
investigations related to COVID-19 pandemic relief programs, funds, and 
scams. Further, SSA OIG participates on the National COVID-19 Fraud 
Enforcement Task Force led by the U.S. Deputy Attorney General, and as 
many as 21 pandemic-related task forces and workgroups across the 
country. In FY 2024, SSA OIG anticipates expending $1.1 million on 
pandemic-related investigative workloads and audits. Further, SSA OIG 
has not received supplemental funding to address pandemic fraud. 
Federal agencies that administered pandemic relief programs did receive 
these types of additional funding.

Social Security Scams

SSA OIG has established a multidisciplinary team of professionals who 
develop and implement innovative approaches to combat Social Security-
related and other government imposter scams through investigations, 
enforcement actions, and public outreach and education. SSA OIG's 
multipronged approach has helped significantly disrupt these scams. Our 
efforts have resulted in multiple arrests and convictions and 
eliminated many scam calls to potential victims.

Further, although SSA OIG has achieved remarkable results in the drop 
of SSA imposter scam-related complaints, according to the Federal Trade 
Commission (FTC), SSA imposter scams are still the number one 
government-related imposter scam and, with a recent increase in 
complaints, continue to be a challenge requiring the devotion of 
significant SSA OIG resources. Earlier this month, SSA OIG and SSA 
combined efforts on our fifth annual National Slam the Scam Day. The 
United States Senate passed a resolution supporting National Slam the 
Scam Day, sponsored by Senators Susan Collins and Mark Kelly, with 
original cosponsors Senators Mike Braun, Richard Blumenthal, Kyrsten 
Sinema, Marco Rubio, and Rick Scott.

SSA OIG remains engaged and committed to maintaining institutional 
knowledge to investigate these scams by working with Federal, state, 
and local partners, as well as consumer advocacy groups, to protect 
people from becoming victims. In FY 2024, SSA OIG expects to dedicate 
an estimated $3 million to combatting imposter scams, including funding 
for human capital resources and allegations management. In FY 2025, SSA 
OIG will continue to commit staff to analyze imposter scam allegations, 
develop investigative leads, and deploy effective investigative 
strategies to combat these fraud schemes. The FY 2025 Budget will allow 
SSA OIG to better anticipate, recognize, and efficiently mitigate new 
and emerging fraud schemes, including those related to pandemic relief 
and government imposter scams.

SSA OIG plans to work year-round on scam education. In addition, SSA 
OIG will continue to track scam allegations submitted to SSA OIG, issue 
scam alerts, and increase its social media presence by posting new scam 
tactics and anti-fraud reminders. In FY 2025, SSA OIG will deploy 
advanced data analytics and generative AI tools to expeditiously 
identify and flag clusters of the most egregious cases of fraud for 
immediate investigation.

Conclusion

Chairman Wyden and Ranking Member Crapo, thank you for the opportunity 
to submit a written statement on the President's Budget for FY 2025. I 
believe it is essential for the Committee on Finance to understand the 
breadth of issues SSA OIG will be focusing on in FY 2025. The dedicated 
employees of SSA OIG work each day to ensure the integrity of SSA 
programs and the funding provided by the U.S. Congress ensures the 
integrity of these programs.

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