[Senate Hearing 118-717]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]


                                                        S. Hrg. 118-717

                   U.S. AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL SYSTEMS, 
                          PERSONNEL AND SAFETY
=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

                      SUBCOMMITTEE ON AVIATION SAFETY, 
                         OPERATIONS, AND INNOVATION

                                 OF THE

                         COMMITTEE ON COMMERCE,
                      SCIENCE, AND TRANSPORTATION
                          UNITED STATES SENATE

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                             SECOND SESSION

                               __________

                           DECEMBER 12, 2024

                               __________

    Printed for the use of the Committee on Commerce, Science, and 
                             Transportation
                             
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                Available online: http://www.govinfo.gov
                

                   U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE                    
61-703 PDF                  WASHINGTON : 2025                
          
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       SENATE COMMITTEE ON COMMERCE, SCIENCE, AND TRANSPORTATION

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                             SECOND SESSION

                   MARIA CANTWELL, Washington, Chair
AMY KLOBUCHAR, Minnesota             TED CRUZ, Texas, Ranking
BRIAN SCHATZ, Hawaii                 JOHN THUNE, South Dakota
EDWARD MARKEY, Massachusetts         ROGER WICKER, Mississippi
GARY PETERS, Michigan                DEB FISCHER, Nebraska
TAMMY BALDWIN, Wisconsin             JERRY MORAN, Kansas
TAMMY DUCKWORTH, Illinois            DAN SULLIVAN, Alaska
JON TESTER, Montana                  MARSHA BLACKBURN, Tennessee
KYRSTEN SINEMA, Arizona              TODD YOUNG, Indiana
JACKY ROSEN, Nevada                  TED BUDD, North Carolina
BEN RAY LUJAN, New Mexico            ERIC SCHMITT, Missouri
JOHN HICKENLOOPER, Colorado          J. D. VANCE, Ohio
RAPHAEL WARNOCK, Georgia             SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO, West 
PETER WELCH, Vermont                     Virginia
                                     CYNTHIA LUMMIS, Wyoming
                   Lila Harper Helms, Staff Director
                 Melissa Porter, Deputy Staff Director
                     Jonathan Hale, General Counsel
                 Brad Grantz, Republican Staff Director
           Nicole Christus, Republican Deputy Staff Director
                     Liam McKenna, General Counsel
                                 ------                                

      SUBCOMMITTEE ON AVIATION SAFETY, OPERATIONS, AND INNOVATION

TAMMY DUCKWORTH, Illinois, Chair     JERRY MORAN, Kansas, Ranking
JON TESTER, Montana                  JOHN THUNE, South Dakota
KYRSTEN SINEMA, Arizona              ROGER WICKER, Mississippi
JACKY ROSEN, Nevada                  DAN SULLIVAN, Alaska
JOHN HICKENLOOPER, Colorado          TODD YOUNG, Indiana
RAPHAEL WARNOCK, Georgia
                           
                           
                           C O N T E N T S

                              ----------                              
                                                                   Page
Hearing held on December 12, 2024................................     1
Statement of Senator Duckworth...................................     1
Statement of Senator Cruz........................................     3
Statement of Senator Cantwell....................................     4
Statement of Senator Rosen.......................................    50
Statement of Senator Klobuchar...................................    52
Statement of Senator Sullivan....................................    54
Statement of Senator Welch.......................................    56

                               Witnesses

Kevin Walsh, Director, Information Technology and Cybersecurity, 
  United States Government Accountability Office.................     6
    Prepared statement...........................................     8
Dean Iacopelli, Chief of Staff, National Air Traffic Controller 
  Association (NATCA)............................................    16
    Prepared statement...........................................    18
Captain Jason Ambrosi, President, Air Line Pilots Association, 
  International..................................................    24
    Prepared statement...........................................    26
Dave Spero, National President, Professional Aviation Safety 
  Specialists, AFL-CIO (PASS)....................................    29
    Prepared statement...........................................    31
Marc Scribner, Senior Transportation Policy Analyst, Reason 
  Foundation.....................................................    36
    Prepared statement...........................................    37

                                Appendix

Response to written questions submitted to Kevin Walsh by:
    Hon. Jerry Moran.............................................    59
    Hon. Dan Sullivan............................................    62
    Hon. Maria Cantwell..........................................    63
Response to written questions submitted to Dean Iacopelli by:
    Hon. Jerry Moran.............................................    64
    Hon. Dan Sullivan............................................    65
    Hon. Maria Cantwell..........................................    66
    Hon. Tammy Duckworth.........................................    67
    Hon. Amy Klobuchar...........................................    69
Response to written questions submitted to Dave Spero by:
    Hon. Jerry Moran.............................................    70
    Hon. Dan Sullivan............................................    72
    Hon. Maria Cantwell..........................................    73

 
         U.S. AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL SYSTEMS, PERSONNEL AND SAFETY

                              ----------                              


                      THURSDAY, DECEMBER 12, 2024

                               U.S. Senate,
  Subcommittee on Aviation Safety, Operations, and 
                                        Innovation,
        Committee on Commerce, Science, and Transportation,
                                                    Washington, DC.
    The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:24 a.m. 
EST, in room SR-253, Russell Senate Office Building, Hon. Tammy 
Duckworth, Chairman of the Subcommittee, presiding.
    Present: Senators Duckworth [presiding], Cantwell, 
Klobuchar, Rosen, Hickenlooper, Welch, Moran, Cruz, and 
Sullivan.

          OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. TAMMY DUCKWORTH, 
                   U.S. SENATOR FROM ILLINOIS

    Senator Duckworth. Good morning. The Subcommittee on 
Aviation Safety, Operations, and Innovation will come to order. 
I want to welcome everyone to our hearing today, United States 
Air Traffic Control Systems, Personnel and Safety. This hearing 
is of vital importance to ensure the safety of our national 
airspace, and I want to thank our Chairwoman Cantwell, Ranking 
Member Cruz, and Ranking Member Moran for their help in making 
this hearing happen.
    Too much of our Nation's air traffic control equipment, 
technology, and infrastructure is outdated. Today we will have 
an opportunity to hear from stakeholders about the challenges 
these aging systems create for our air traffic controllers and 
what needs to be done to keep our airspace safe.
    We will be hearing from the Government Accountability 
Office of Information Technology and Cybersecurity Director, 
Kevin Walsh--thank you for being here; National Air Traffic 
Controller Association Chief of Staff, Dean Iacopelli--
hopefully I said that correctly, thank you; Air Line Pilots 
Association President, Captain Jason Ambrosi--welcome; 
Professional Aviation Safety Specialists President, Dave 
Spero--thank you; and Reason Foundation Senior Transportation 
Policy Analyst Marc Scribner--thank you for being here.
    Before I proceed to my opening statement I want to just 
make a comment that I am saddened to learn of FAA Administrator 
Whitaker's plan to resign next month. His leadership has been 
invaluable during this critical time in aviation safety. His 
oversight of Boeing production has been essential, and I hope 
the efforts he spearheaded on that front will continue. Our 
aviation system is safer because of his service, and we are 
grateful to him for it.
    I will recognize myself for the opening statement.
    In the years immediately following the pandemic, we 
witnessed an alarming series of close calls in commercial 
aviation. Last year, we saw a terrifying image of a JetBlue 
flight attempting to land in Boston that came within 400 feet 
of a Learjet taking off. In Austin, we saw a FedEx cargo plane 
attempt to land on the same runway where a Southwest 737 was 
about to take off. The two aircraft came within less than 200 
feet of each other.
    Our Committee held hearings and worked in a bipartisan 
manner to pass an FAA Reauthorization Act to make our skies 
safer. The new law, which is still being implemented, makes 
important investments in air traffic controller staffing and 
surface detection technology.
    But we cannot rest on our laurels. Safety requires constant 
vigilance, which leads me to today's hearing. The safety of the 
flying public depends upon well-equipped air traffic control 
systems. Our air traffic controllers work tirelessly to manage 
our national airspace, but they rely on increasingly outdated 
facilities and equipment. Following the January 2023 NOTAM 
system outage, which resulted in 1,300 flight cancellations, 
nearly 10,000 delays, and a shutdown of the national airspace, 
the FAA conducted an operational risk assessment to evaluate 
the sustainability of all aircraft, all air traffic control 
systems.
    In September, drawing upon that work, the Government 
Accountability Office, the GAO, conducted its own analysis and 
issued a report warning, FAA actions are urgently needed to 
modernize aging systems. Fifty-one of our Nation's 138 air 
traffic control systems are unsustainable. That is more than 
one-third.
    According to the GAO, 17 of these systems are critical for 
safety and efficiency, yet FAA will not be able to modernize 
some for 10 to 13 years, and as of May 2024, did not even have 
investments planned for four of them. Some ATC equipment is 
getting so sold, service and replacement parts are no longer 
available. For example, replacement antennas are no longer 
available for beacons used to determine the location of some 
aircraft during the en route portion of their flight. 
Manufacturer support is no longer available for the most common 
types of equipment and instrument landing systems, which FAA 
maintains at our airports. Worse, when FAA replaces aging 
equipment, the process sometimes takes so long, the new 
equipment is outdated by the time it actually gets deployed.
    To be clear, keeping FAA properly equipped is not an 
entirely new issue. It has challenged lawmakers and 
administrations from both parties for decades. What is new, 
however, is the context in which we find ourselves. Our air 
traffic control equipment and facilities are aging while our 
system is still under post-pandemic stress and contending with 
rising demand.
    Close calls are still happening. A few notable examples 
from this year demonstrate the type of safety risks that we are 
seeing. In April, a JetBlue Embraer 190 had to abort takeoff at 
Reagan National Airport when a Southwest 737 was about to cross 
the same runway. In May, an American A319 had to abort takeoff 
at DCA after reaching about 100 miles per hour because a 
smaller plane was on a final approach to an intersecting 
runway. In September, an Alaska Airline 737 aborted takeoff in 
Nashville to avoid a Southwest 737 that was about to cross the 
same runway. The Alaska plane braked so hard its tires blew 
out, reportedly.
    There is a growing consensus across a wide range of 
aviation stakeholders that Congress needs to address this 
issue. We need modern, sustainable air traffic control systems 
to keep the flying public safe, and I look forward to hearing 
from our witnesses about how best we can achieve that.
    And since Ranking Member Moran is not here for his 
statement, I will recognize our Chairwoman, Chairwoman 
Cantwell, for her opening statement. Oh, is he here? Oh, 
Senator Cruz.

                  STATEMENT OF HON. TED CRUZ, 
                    U.S. SENATOR FROM TEXAS

    Senator Cruz. Thank you, Madam Chair. Before I begin I want 
to comment on the announcement this morning that Michael 
Whitaker will resign on January 20. I want to thank him for his 
service. He was confirmed without a single no vote, a testament 
to his experience, his judgment, and his apolitical nature. 
When he took the job I asked him to focus on keeping the flying 
public safe and to stay out of politics, and he has ably led 
the agency during a challenging period, and I want to thank him 
for his public service.
    On January 11, 2023, the Nation experienced its first 
nationwide ground stop of air travel since 9/11. This ground 
stop resulted in roughly 10,000 flights being canceled and days 
of delays for travelers. What could have prompted this 
grounding of air travel? It was not weather or some airline 
experiencing operational difficulties. It was because the FAA's 
NOTAM system, which delivers crucial safety information to 
pilots, experienced a technical glitch.
    NOTAM has been used since 1947, and while the technology 
has evolved from the original telephone system, the current 
system has not been updated in over a decade. In fact, the most 
recent change to NOTAM was when the Biden administration 
changed Notice to Airmen to Notice to Air Missions. I think the 
American people would have preferred the Administration focus 
on modernizing the antiquated system over obsession on gendered 
language.
    In response to this massive failure, the FAA conducted a 
review of more than 100 critical systems for air traffic in 
this country. Notably, of the systems the FAA evaluated, 
roughly a third of these systems were unsustainable. Even more 
concerning, the Government Accountability Office, the GAO, 
looked at the FAA's assessment and discovered that the FAA did 
not have plans to modernize 17 systems that were, quote, ``most 
at risk.'' This is completely unacceptable.
    Air traffic facilities and radars need improvement. Based 
on FAA data, the reliability of the FAA's radar fleet is 
declining. They are online less often, unscheduled and 
scheduled outages last longer, and it takes longer to restore 
service when radar does break down. The United States should be 
a leader in aviation technology. Sadly, this is often not the 
case.
    Not only does the report deliver a harsh assessment of 
decades of sustainment efforts, it also presents a bleak 
picture when one considers the funding wasted on doomed 
projects. For example, the GAO identified one ATC system that 
needed additional funding for modernization just two years 
after it was completed. Other projects took more than 10 years 
to complete, becoming obsolete almost as soon as they were 
deployed.
    The FAA has long been plagued by difficulties in 
maintaining and modernization ATC systems, especially the 
NextGen project. NextGen was first developed in the early 
2000s, and has largely failed to deliver on the promised 
benefits. As projects finish, they quickly become outdated, 
underscoring the problem of such slow modernization. The FAA 
Reauthorization Act of 2024 addresses the problems with 
NextGen, requiring the FAA to finish development of NextGen and 
to sunset the office by the end of next year.
    Before the FAA can embark on another wholesale 
modernization project, the law requires the FAA to present the 
business case for the project to Congress, ensuring that the 
FAA conducts the analyses necessary to identify feasible 
benchmarks for the NAS before starting the next big project. 
The breadth, scale, and sheer number of these challenges should 
cause us to question the fundamental structure and operations 
of the FAA. Is this the right model for air traffic control?
    Experts across the political spectrum agree that there is a 
need for stakeholders to come together and discuss the path 
forward. In November 2023, the National Airspace System's 
Safety Review Team, appointed by the FAA, submitted an 
independent report to the FAA and to Congress focused on 
improving safety in the NAS, which included evaluating the 
reliability of the air traffic organization and the NAS.
    Administrator Michael Whitaker has also said the aviation 
community should be evaluating alternatives to insulate the 
agency from political disruptions. I agree. Congress should 
discuss and consider creative alternatives to ensure that the 
national airspace system reliably works for all users, 
particularly as new aviation transportation technology enters 
the market.
    The conclusions from the GAO report are numerous, but they 
all point to one clear conclusion: the status quo of how the 
FAA modernizes our ATC is unacceptable. Our nation should be 
the leader in the field, and instead we are stuck with 
technology that is outdated almost as soon as it is introduced 
into the airspace.
    I applaud the thousands of air traffic controllers who 
safely manage thousands of flights, but broader conversations 
about how we modernize our air traffic system are desperately 
needed. The American people deserve an operation that uses its 
funding wisely, is innovative while ensuring safety, and is 
also world-leading in reliability. As Chairman next year, I 
intend to focus heavily on the status of the airspace and what 
changes may be necessary to enhance its efficiency and 
reliability. Thank you.
    Senator Duckworth. Thank you, Ranking Member Cruz. I now 
recognize Chairwoman Cantwell.

               STATEMENT OF HON. MARIA CANTWELL, 
                  U.S. SENATOR FROM WASHINGTON

    Chair Cantwell. Thank you, Senator Duckworth, for having 
this important hearing this morning on aviation safety. Like 
you, I am saddened and surprised to hear of Administrator 
Whitaker's decision to step down in January 2025.
    I know this, that if you want to be the leader in aviation 
you have to be the leader in aviation safety. I think 
Administrator Whitaker was living by that motto. I hope that 
the next Administrator will live by it as well. The next 
Administrator needs to be ready on day one to continue the job 
of restoring the FAA's safety culture and providing real 
oversight of the aviation sector.
    This Committee has done good work looking at not just what 
manufacturers must do, but making sure that the FAA does its 
oversight role and responsibility.
    So we look forward to this opportunity to continue the work 
with Chairman-to-be Cruz in January, and with you, Senator 
Duckworth, on the very, very important technology challenges 
that we face in the FAA. And I will have more to say about 
Administrator Whitaker later today.
    Last year's outage of the FAA NOTAM system underscored that 
the FAA, like airlines, must have a backup system and 
redundancy. We need to have the FAA meet the same standards.
    So this hearing--and I want again to thank you for your 
leadership during the 118th Congress, Senator Duckworth, 
because serving as an aviator yourself, and certainly the 
intelligence that you bring to these technology issues, have 
helped us solve many issues.
    Getting aviation infrastructure right, whether it is the 
air traffic controller system, sustainable aviation fuel, next 
generation, or important issues like thermal plastics and 
composites, all of these are about winning the next 100 years 
of aviation.
    Our country has been blessed to be leaders in aviation, but 
we can see the competition coming, and we can see the 
challenges of implementing safety.
    According to the Airports Council-North America, every 
dollar invested in aviation infrastructure yields $2.5 dollars 
in aviation infrastructure growth, and importantly, it helps us 
stay on top of those aviation safety priorities.
    We have been spurred to action obviously by the horrible 
crashes that we witnessed with both Ethiopian Airlines Flight 
302 and the Lion Air Flight 610, which pushed us to pass ACSAA. 
And in the aftermath of that, the Alaska Airlines 1282 flight 
blow out renewed the focus even more on production quality.
    On January 12, several days after the incident, the FAA 
Administrator chose to strengthen its oversight of 
manufacturing and initiated an audit. Four days later, Senator 
Duckworth and I made sure that we petitioned the 737 MAX-7's 
deicing system, and Boeing withdrew that and pledged to work on 
fixing that, and we are still seeing this play out.
    Today's hearing marks the 12th hearing that our Committee 
has had, building on 7 hearings in the 117th Congress. So it is 
safe to say, with Senator Cruz's remarks, that we will continue 
to be laser focused on aviation safety and technology.
    NTSB Chairman Homendy and others testified on the spike of 
near misses and close calls that we were seeing, and Chair 
Homendy has been before the Committee several times to discuss 
the continued investigation of the Alaska Airlines door plug 
blowout.
    We brought in airline CEOs, labor leaders and talked about 
the success that we have seen, and what we need to do to keep 
going past our COVID-19 pandemic considerations.
    We put our money where our mouth is and set a table for a 
FAA reauthorization law, and all of the Committee worked very 
diligently to get that over the goal line. Again, I want to 
thank Senator Cruz for his work on that.
    The FAA law reauthorized both the FAA and NTSB for an 
additional five years to help keep safe 3 million daily 
passengers in the United States. It gives the FAA the resources 
it needs and makes sure that the Nation's aviation safety 
regulator does set that gold standard.
    The law provides NTSB, the Nation's safety watchdog, with 
the highest funding authorization it has received, to make sure 
that we hire the investigators needed to complete their 
mission. And the reauthorization invests in the well-being of 
our aviation workforce, giving them new tools, training, and 
platforms to thrive.
    Senator Duckworth, again, thank you for holding this 
hearing this morning. I look forward to your continued 
leadership in this very important role of aviation technology 
advancement and meeting our safety standards. Thank you.
    Senator Duckworth. Thank you, Chair Cantwell. We will now 
proceed to witness testimony. First I would like to recognize 
Mr. Kevin Walsh from the Government Accountability Office for 
his statement.

              STATEMENT OF KEVIN WALSH, DIRECTOR,

           INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY AND CYBERSECURITY,

         UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABILITY OFFICE

    Mr. Walsh. Chair, Ranking Member, and members of the 
Subcommittee, thank you for inviting GAO to testify on this 
important issue.
    The FAA's air traffic controllers rely on 138 systems that 
monitor weather, conduct navigation and surveillance, and 
manage communications. More than half of these systems are 
older than 20 years. Some are more than 60 years old. As a 
reminder, 20 years ago Facebook was launched, and 60-year-old 
systems may have been active when JFK was President.
    Unsurprisingly, these FAA systems have long-standing issues 
with the availability of parts and the retirement of 
knowledgeable technicians. Generally, legacy systems contribute 
to unmet mission needs, staffing issues, and increased costs. 
That matches with what we are seeing at the FAA.
    Further, their prior modernization efforts have been 
fraught with unrealistic baselines, cost and schedule overruns, 
unanticipated requirements, and poor oversight. The expected 
growth in air travel over the coming years will not help those 
issues.
    As part of our recent report we reviewed selected efforts 
to modernize dozens of air traffic control systems and found 
that, on average, the FAA took more than four years to create a 
baseline, that is expected cost, schedule, and performance of a 
project. We also noted that such pre-baseline investments 
received limited oversight from FAA. After establishing a 
baseline, these modernizations plan to take a further 12.5 
years to complete deployment, on average.
    Prolonged timeframes like this will impact FAA's mission. 
For example, the En Route Automation Modernization was 
completed in 2015, after a 10-year effort, but it was deployed 
without data technology, which required a major refresh soon 
thereafter.
    Back to the 138 air traffic control systems. To its credit, 
the FAA reviewed the systems to gauge how easy they are to 
maintain, as well as the operational impact of those systems. 
The FAA expects to use this assessment going forward to 
prioritize its modernization efforts. That assessment found 
that 33 of the air traffic control systems, 24 percent, had 
adequate funding and spare parts. The remaining 105 had 
differing degrees of shortages or potential shortages in spares 
and funding. Many of them also had limited staff expertise and 
did not meet mission needs.
    Confirming those issues, Mr. Spero's organization kindly 
asked its members some questions on our behalf, and their top 
issues were also obsolete systems, difficulties finding parts, 
and staffing shortfalls.
    Worryingly, FAA's assessment showed that 58 of the systems 
with shortages or shortfalls have a critical operational 
impact. Amongst them we identified 17 that we felt were 
especially concerning given their age, sustainability, and 
operational impact. Of those, the earliest of those 17 
modernizations is planned to finish in six years. Some are 
planned to be completed in 10 to 13 years, and four do not have 
ongoing modernization efforts.
    We also found that the FAA's Acquisition Oversight Council 
had not ensured that investments delivered functionality in 
smaller segments, and had not consistently monitored high 
risks. We also noted the Council made decisions based on 
incomplete data and documentation.
    Despite this, flying is safe. But continuing to rely on 
these legacy systems diminishes the margin of safety and adds 
stress to the national airspace. To that end, FAA needs to 
break modernizations into smaller pieces, deliver functionality 
quicker, and improve accountability.
    I hope that this hearing is a catalyst for action, but 
there is no easy answer or quick fix. A snap of Ironman's 
fingers cannot fix this. This will be the work of many years 
and billions of dollars.
    This concludes my statement, and I look forward to your 
questions.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Walsh follows:]

Prepared Statement of Kevin Walsh, Director, Information Technology and 
     Cybersecurity, United States Government Accountability Office


    Chair Duckworth, Ranking Member Moran, and Members of the 
Subcommittee:

    I am pleased to participate in today's hearing on the impact of the 
Federal Aviation Administration's (FAA) aging systems supporting the 
national airspace and air traffic control (ATC). As an agency of the 
Department of Transportation, FAA's mission is to promote the safe, 
orderly, and expeditious flow of air traffic in the national airspace. 
To ensure FAA's mission is met, air traffic controllers are to manage 
communications; monitor weather, navigation, and surveillance; and 
direct aircraft from takeoff to landing. Controllers manage up to 
50,000 flights per day. FAA anticipates continued growth and congestion 
in the airspace, forecasting that air travel will increase annually on 
average by 6.2 percent.
    Over the past several decades, FAA has been experiencing challenges 
with aging ATC systems. These challenges are due to, among other 
things, unavailability of parts, reduced technical expertise in 
outdated technologies, and growth in airspace demand.
    My statement today discusses the results of our recently issued 
report that, among other things, (1) identified FAA's unsustainable and 
potentially unsustainable ATC systems, (2) assessed the extent to which 
FAA has ongoing investments to modernize unsustainable and potentially 
unsustainable systems, and (3) examined the progress FAA has made in 
baselining and implementing selected modernization investments.\1\ 
Detailed information on the objectives, scope, and methodology for that 
work can be found in the issued report. In addition, we followed up 
with Department of Transportation and FAA officials in December 2024 to 
determine what actions they had taken to implement our recommendations.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \1\ GAO, Air Traffic Control: FAA Actions Are Urgently Needed to 
Modernize Aging Systems, GAO-24-107001 (Washington, D.C.: Sept. 23, 
2024).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    We conducted the work on which this statement is based in 
accordance with generally accepted government auditing standards. Those 
standards require that we plan and perform the audit to obtain 
sufficient, appropriate evidence to provide a reasonable basis for our 
findings and conclusions based on our audit objectives. We believe that 
the evidence obtained provides a reasonable basis for our findings and 
conclusions based on our audit objectives.
Background
    To ensure FAA's mission is met, air traffic controllers rely on 
numerous complex systems to monitor communications and weather and 
provide navigation and surveillance services during the various phases 
of flight. Figure 1 provides a simplified view of air traffic control 
within the national airspace.


    FAA has had longstanding challenges with maintaining aging ATC 
systems.\2\ According to FAA officials, these challenges are due to the 
unavailability of parts and retirement of technicians with expertise in 
maintaining the aging systems. In addition, there has been dramatic 
growth in airspace demand since the older systems were initially 
implemented. This has adversely impacted the ability of those systems 
to continue to support mission needs.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \2\ ATC systems support a variety of air traffic control 
operations, including navigation, weather, surveillance, 
communications, and air traffic optimization.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    These challenges can impact FAA's ability to meet its mission. For 
example, the Notice to Air Missions system, which enables air traffic 
controllers to provide real-time updates to aircraft crew about 
critical flying situations relating to issues such as weather, 
congestion, and safety, is over 30 years old. On January 11, 2023, the 
system became unavailable to users. To ensure safety, FAA grounded all 
departing aircraft for about 2 hours to fix the system. The outage 
caused cancellations of over 1,300 flights and delayed almost 10,000 
other flights throughout the day. Some airlines took several days to 
fully recover.
    For over 4 decades we have reported on challenges facing FAA's 
modernization of its ATC systems.\3\ In February 1982, FAA released its 
first comprehensive plan for improving ATC services. At that time, FAA 
estimated that implementation of this national airspace modernization 
plan would cost about $10 billion with full benefits realized by the 
late 1990s.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \3\ GAO, Examination of the Federal Aviation Administration's Plan 
for the National Airspace System--Interim Report, AFMD-82-66 
(Washington, D.C.: Apr. 20, 1982).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    As we subsequently reported in several products, FAA faced 
challenges with this modernization. Due to the many delays and overruns 
that FAA encountered, we designated FAA's ATC modernization as a new 
high-risk area in 1995.\4\ In doing so, we noted that the estimated 
cost of the overall modernization had ballooned to $36 billion, and the 
largest component had to be dramatically revamped. In continuing to 
identify FAA modernization as a high-risk area, in 2003 we reported 
that after 2 decades, FAA's ATC modernization was far from complete. 
Among the reasons for FAA's performance were that it did not (1) 
recognize the technical complexity of the effort, (2) realistically 
estimate the resources required, (3) adequately oversee its 
contractors' activities, and (4) effectively control system 
requirements.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \4\ GAO, High-Risk Series: An Overview, HR-95-1 (Washington, D.C.: 
Feb. 1, 1995). We updated our concerns in subsequent high-risk reports 
in 1997 through 2007. For example, see GAO, High-Risk Series: An 
Overview, HR-97-1 (Washington, D.C.: Feb. 1, 1997); and High-Risk 
Series: An Update, GAO-07-310 (Washington, D.C.: Jan. 31, 2007). In 
2009, we noted that continued focus on ATC systems modernization was 
warranted as FAA began new modernization efforts. GAO, High-Risk 
Series: An Update, GAO-09-271 (Washington, D.C.: Jan. 22, 2009).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    In 2003, Congress created the Joint Planning and Development Office 
to plan for and coordinate a transformation from the current ATC system 
to the next generation air transportation system (NextGen). NextGen is 
a multidecade, multibillion-dollar program to increase the safety and 
efficiency of air travel by transitioning from a ground-based ATC 
system that uses radar, to a system of systems based on satellite 
navigation and digital communications.\5\ FAA released its initial plan 
to implement NextGen in 2004.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \5\ In 2003, the Vision 100--Century of Aviation Reauthorization 
Act mandated that FAA create and carry out a plan for modernizing its 
ATC systems. Vision 100--Century of Aviation Reauthorization Act, Pub. 
L. No. 108-176, Sec. 709, 117 Stat. 2490, 2582-2585 (2003).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    We have reported that NextGen has had the following challenges: (1) 
software development complexity, (2) unanticipated system requirements, 
(3) insufficient stakeholder involvement during system development, and 
(4) unanticipated events, such as government shutdowns.\6\ These 
challenges have contributed to significant schedule delays. 
Specifically, while NextGen was initially planned to be completed by 
2025, as of November 2023, FAA did not anticipate completing NextGen 
until at least 2030.
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    \6\ See examples of reports we have previously issued on NextGen: 
GAO, Air Traffic Control Modernization: Progress and Challenges in 
Implementing NextGen, GAO-17-450 (Washington, D.C.: Aug. 31, 2017); Air 
Traffic Control Modernization: Management Challenges Associated with 
Program Costs Hinder NextGen Implementation, GAO-12-223 (Washington, 
D.C.: Feb. 16, 2012); and Next Generation Air Transportation System: 
Progress and Challenges Associated with the Transformation of the 
National Airspace System, GAO-07-25 (Washington, D.C.: Nov. 13, 2006).
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    Most recently, in November 2023, we reported that FAA had spent at 
least $14 billion on NextGen from Fiscal Years 2007 through 2022 and 
expected to spend about $22 billion in total through 2030.\7\ We found 
that FAA had made mixed progress meeting milestones in its ongoing 
effort to modernize air traffic management through the NextGen 
initiative.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \7\ GAO, Air Traffic Control Modernization: Program Management 
Improvements Could Help FAA Address NextGen Delays and Challenges, GAO-
24-105254 (Washington, D.C.: Nov. 9, 2023).
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    This mixed progress has slowed FAA's NextGen efforts to improve the 
safety and efficiency of air travel and address growing congestion in 
the national airspace. For example, FAA met its milestone for deploying 
more reliable digital communication services at ATC towers. However, it 
did not deploy initial modernized services to all 20 facilities serving 
en route flights by its September 2021 milestone.
    We also reported that FAA officials and stakeholders stated that 
the COVID-19 pandemic was a major cause of schedule delays and cost 
increases, as it required FAA to redo work that had been completed 
prior to the pandemic. In March 2023, FAA officials estimated the 
financial impacts of COVID-19 to the NextGen program were $225 million.
    We further reported that while FAA officials noted that another key 
contributor to the program's mixed progress was that NextGen had a flat 
budget for several years, we found that the actual budget reported in 
FAA's congressional budget justification generally aligned with the 
amounts in the President's budget request. For example, as reflected in 
FAA's congressional budget justifications for Fiscal Years 2012 through 
2023, FAA's budget requests and actual budget for NextGen--including 
system deployment--have remained relatively constant at about $1 
billion annually.\8\
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    \8\ We used the actual budget amount FAA reflected in its 
congressional budget justification for each Fiscal Year, but for Fiscal 
Year 2022 used the continuing resolution budget amount FAA reported 
because the actual budget was not yet available at the time the 
congressional budget justification was developed.
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About One-Third of FAA ATC Systems Are Considered Unsustainable
    Lastly, we found that FAA's efforts to implement NextGen met four 
leading practices in program management but fell short in fully meeting 
five other practices. We made four recommendations to address the five 
deficiencies to improve FAA's management of NextGen. As of November 
2024, FAA had not implemented three of the four recommendations.
    During Fiscal Year 2023, FAA determined that of its 138 ATC 
systems, 51 (37 percent) were unsustainable and 54 (39 percent) were 
potentially unsustainable.\9\ Specifically, after the January 2023 
shutdown of the national airspace following the Notice to Air Missions 
outage, FAA officials conducted an operational risk assessment to 
evaluate the sustainability of all ATC systems.\10\ In addition, the 
assessment was intended to inform where FAA should focus future 
investments, funding, and risk reduction activities associated with ATC 
systems.
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    \9\ The assessment identified 181 total systems. We excluded 43 of 
these systems that were classified as the responsibility of the 
Department of Defense or building facilities.
    \10\ FAA plans to continue conducting operational assessments of 
existing ATC systems on an annual basis. As of May 2024, FAA was 
developing a draft order to formalize this process.
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    The officials rated each of the 138 systems by their sustainability 
levels on a scale of A through E (rating A represented the least 
sustainable and rating E represented no sustainment issues). Systems 
with ratings A and B are unsustainable and C ratings are potentially 
unsustainable. Figure 2 summarizes the sustainability ratings of the 
ATC systems.


    FAA categorizes its ATC systems by criticality. Of the 105 
unsustainable or potentially unsustainable ATC systems,

   29 unsustainable and 29 potentially unsustainable systems 
        have a critical operational impact on the safety and efficiency 
        of the national airspace,

   16 unsustainable and 9 potentially unsustainable systems 
        have a moderate operational impact on the safety and efficiency 
        of the national airspace, and

   6 unsustainable and 16 potentially unsustainable systems 
        were mission support systems and were not considered critical.

    See figure 3 for a summary of the 105 systems by criticality and 
sustainability.


    Moreover, the ages of the 105 systems vary significantly. 
Specifically,

   73 were deployed over 20 years ago, with 40 being deployed 
        over 30 years ago, and six of those deployed over 60 years ago.

   32 systems were implemented within the past 20 years, with 
        four as recently as 2020.

    FAA also reported that of the 105 unsustainable and potentially 
unsustainable systems, 74 systems (70 percent) face one or more 
challenges that are historically problematic of aging systems. These 
challenges include no longer meeting mission needs, difficulty finding 
spare parts, and limited technical staff with expertise in repairing 
the aging system. Specifically, the agency reported that 11 systems no 
longer met FAA mission needs, 62 systems were difficult to maintain due 
to challenges in finding employees with the requisite knowledge and 
expertise, and 61 systems involved difficulty in finding spare or 
replacement parts.
FAA Has Ongoing Investments to Modernize At-Risk Systems but Did Not 
        Always Establish Near-Term Plans
    These challenges pose risks to the operations of key ATC systems. 
According to a February 2024 response from FAA technicians, the top 
issue facing the agency is system obsolescence and difficulty in 
finding replacement parts.\11\ The response also indicated that 
inadequate staffing of FAA facilities posed a challenge to maintaining 
systems because some technicians were responsible for areas spanning 
hundreds of miles.
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    \11\ In response to discussions with us, the Professional Aviation 
Safety Specialists (a labor union that represents, among others, 
national airspace safety inspectors and technicians) used a survey tool 
to solicit responses to our questions from member FAA employees who 
maintain the national airspace.
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    As of December 2023, the agency had 64 ongoing investments to 
modernize 90 of the 105 unsustainable and potentially unsustainable ATC 
systems. Collectively, the systems are intended to be modernized 
between 2023 through 2038. FAA did not have an associated modernization 
investment for the remaining 15 systems.
    However, FAA has been slow to modernize some of the most critical 
and at-risk systems. Specifically, when considering age, sustainability 
ratings, operational impact level, and expected date of modernization 
or replacement for each system, as of May 2024, FAA had 17 systems that 
were especially concerning. The 17 systems range from as few as 2 years 
old to as many as 50 years old, are unsustainable, and are critical to 
the safety and efficiency of the national airspace. However, the 
investments intended to modernize or replace these 17 systems are not 
planned to be completed for at least 6 more years. In some cases, they 
were not to be completed for at least 10 years.
    In addition, of the 15 systems that FAA does not have an associated 
ongoing modernization investment, four are critical systems and it is 
unknown when the associated systems will be modernized or replaced. 
(The remaining 11 systems were of moderate to low operational impact or 
only potentially unsustainable and not as much of an immediate 
concern.) Table 1 provides the key factors of the most critical and at-
risk ATC systems.


    a This table omits the official names of the 17 systems 
due to sensitivity concerns. We used generic designations instead.

    b In 2023 FAA officials conducted an operational risk 
assessment to evaluate the sustainability of all ATC systems. The 
officials rated each of the 138 systems by their sustainability levels 
on a scale of A through E (rating A represented the least sustainable 
and rating E represented no sustainment issues). Systems with ratings A 
are considered unsustainable because they have significant sparing 
shortages, shortfalls in sustainment funding, and little or no 
technology refresh funding is available. System with ratings B are 
considered unsustainable because they have significant shortfalls in 
sustainment funding or capability.

    c According to FAA officials in May 2024, the agency is 
taking steps to mitigate priority deficiencies for this system. These 
efforts are being addressed in operations, rather than through a 
technical refresh or sustainment investment.

    In addition, the key goals of the 2023 operational risk assessment 
were to identify where FAA should focus future investments, funding, 
and risk reduction activities associated with ATC systems. FAA 
officials stated that they used the assessment to determine that the 
agency had sufficient backup systems and redundancies in place to 
enable it to avoid a catastrophic incident.
    However, according to officials, FAA did not use the results of the 
2023 operational risk assessment to prioritize or establish near-term 
plans to modernize all unsustainable and critical systems identified in 
its assessment. Specifically, as mentioned previously, FAA has four at-
risk systems that do not have any near-term plans for modernization. 
Officials stated that they did not use the 2023 assessment to 
prioritize modernization investments because it was not completed in 
time to inform a 2024 enterprise architecture update.\12\ Officials 
stated that they plan to use the results of the 2024 operational risk 
assessment to inform future budget decisions and plans for 
modernization.
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    \12\ Each year, FAA updates the national airspace enterprise 
architecture roadmaps that highlight a 15-year view of modernization of 
the national airspace and a list of investments associated with each 
roadmap. The roadmaps include acquisition milestones as defined by the 
FAA acquisition management policy and any interdependencies between the 
investments. This helps to facilitate planning and scheduling for the 
approval, funding, acquisition, and deployment of related systems, 
equipment, or capabilities. Proposed capital investments must be 
presented to the JRC for review and approval before they begin. Once 
approved, an investment will be added to the national airspace 
enterprise architecture and be included in the President's budget 
submittal to Congress.
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    Without near-term modernization plans for these systems, critical 
ATC operations that these systems support may continue to be at-risk 
for over a decade before being modernized or replaced. Specifically, 
FAA can take well over a decade to implement modernization investments 
once initiated. Of the nine investments that we reviewed that had 
established cost, schedule, and performance baselines, FAA plans to 
take an average of 12 years and 8 months to complete all deployment 
activities. In addition, four of these investments plan to take as long 
as 15 to 19 years to implement. For example, while the Terminal Flight 
Data Manager modernization investment was initiated in September 2010, 
as of May 2024, FAA estimated it will not be completed until 19 years 
later, in February 2030.\13\ Similarly, the Common Support Services-
Weather system modernization investment was initiated in December 2010, 
but is not estimated to be completed until April 2026 (over 15 years 
later).\14\
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    \13\ The Terminal Flight Data Manager modernization investment is 
intended to support new services that provide automation to current, 
manually intensive operations and replaces critical, outdated systems 
in the national airspace. It shares electronic data among controllers, 
air traffic managers, aircraft operators, and airports. It also enables 
stakeholders to more efficiently stage arrivals and departures and 
manage surface traffic flow. As of May 2024, this investment was in the 
process of rebaselining, which may impact planned time frames.
    \14\ The Common Support Services-Weather project is intended to 
offer weather products for integration into air traffic decision 
support systems, improving the quality of traffic management decisions 
and reducing controller workload during severe weather. Products will 
be provided via a set of common web services for weather, using 
internationally recognized data access and data format standards.
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    The FAA Reauthorization Act of 2024 requires that by February 2026, 
FAA conduct an audit and report to Congress on the results to, among 
other things, determine the level of risk and impact associated with 
outdated, unsafe, or unstable legacy systems.\15\ The act also requires 
that the report provide recommendations for system replacements or 
enhancements.
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    \15\ Pub. L. No. 118-63, 138 Stat. 1025 (2024)
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Selected Modernization Investments Took Years to Baseline and 
        Progressed Slowly
    However, in the interim, Congress may not have important 
information on how FAA is mitigating risks related to critical systems. 
Accordingly, we recommended that FAA report to Congress on how it is 
mitigating risks of all unsustainable and critical systems that are 
identified in the annual operational risk assessments. Transportation 
concurred with our recommendation.
    According to the Office of Management and Budget (OMB), diligently 
tracking the execution of well-crafted plans can provide early warning 
of potential problems and enable timely and effective mitigation before 
problems spiral out of control.\16\ Baselined plans act as a guide 
throughout the life of an investment to provide a basis for measuring 
performance.\17\ In addition, according to FAA acquisition policy, once 
an investment establishes a baseline, the investment receives 
additional oversight from the Joint Resources Council (JRC)--FAA's 
executive acquisition governance board.
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    \16\ OMB, Information Technology Investment Baseline Management 
Policy, M-10-27 (Washington, D.C.: Jun. 28, 2010).
    \17\ Baseline is defined as the approved costs, schedule, and 
performance goals for a given investment.
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    Of the 20 selected investments we reviewed, 11 of the investments 
were required to establish an acquisition program baseline, and nine of 
them did so accordingly.\18\ However, it often took several years after 
investment initiation to accomplish this. Specifically, eight of the 11 
selected investments took longer than 4 years to establish a baseline. 
The Next Generation Very High Frequency and Ultra High Frequency Air-
to-Ground Communications Phase 2 investment took the longest amount of 
time at 6 years and 8 months.\19\ As another example, the Offshore 
Automation Phase 1 investment took 5 years and 6 months to establish a 
baseline.\20\ In addition, while the Aeronautical Information 
Management Modernization Enhancement 1 \21\ and FAA Enterprise Network 
Services\22\ investments were initiated over 6 years ago, as of May 
2024, neither had established an approved acquisition program baseline. 
FAA officials explained that some investments take a while to develop a 
baseline because of the complexity of the requirements or large number 
of affected stakeholders.
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    \18\ We selected 20 of the 65 investments intended to replace 
unsustainable and potentially unsustainable ATC systems. Specifically, 
we selected the 20 investments based on, among other things, the 
operational impact on the safety and/or efficiency of the national 
airspace, acquisition type, and lifecycle cost. For each investment, we 
compiled cost, schedule, and descriptive information from investment 
planning and oversight documents, such as the acquisition program 
baselines, execution plans, and quarterly investment metrics from a 
centralized investment data repository. We performed reliability checks 
on the data against other data sources, such the IT Dashboard.
    \19\ The Next Generation Very High Frequency and Ultra High 
Frequency Air-to-Ground Communications Phase 2 modernization investment 
is intended to replace and modernize aging and obsolete air-to-ground 
analog radios that allow direct voice communication with pilots. These 
radios are to support Voice Over Internet Protocol and meet modern 
requirements.
    \20\ The Offshore Automation Phase 1 investment aims to develop 
system enhancements to increase the productivity, capacity, flight 
efficiency, safety, and system availability of the offshore sites in 
Alaska, Hawaii, Guam, and Puerto Rico.
    \21\ The Aeronautical Information Management Modernization 
Enhancement 1 modernization investment is expected to consolidate 
redundant sources of aeronautical data (i.e., navigational aids and 
notices to air missions) and systems and provide the foundation to 
expand aeronautical information exchange among existing applications, 
air traffic management automation systems, and national airspace 
stakeholders.
    \22\ FAA Enterprise Network Services modernization investment is 
intended to provide FAA with modern ethernet/internet protocol 
telecommunications infrastructure (e.g., cabling) to, among other 
things, enable highly available and secure voice and data 
communications and networking capabilities needed to enable critical 
operations.
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    As a result, these pre-baselined investments receive limited 
oversight from the JRC for several years. Specifically, while FAA 
acquisition policy states that baselined investments are required to 
attend quarterly oversight meetings with the JRC, these oversight 
requirements do not exist for investments that have not been baselined.
    In April 2024, FAA officials stated that they were in the initial 
phase of planning to establish greater accountability for investments 
prior to establishing a baseline. Specifically, officials stated that 
they are considering providing investments increased oversight when 
requesting additional resources for investment activities, beyond what 
was initially allocated, or when pre-baseline milestones are delayed. 
In May 2024, officials stated that FAA has not taken any further steps 
toward this goal.
    To address the lack of accountability of pre-baselined investment, 
we made two recommendations:

   FAA should establish a time frame for developing and 
        implementing guidance to increase JRC oversight of pre-
        baselined investments that require additional resources or time 
        prior to establishing a baseline.

   FAA should ensure that ATC modernization investments 
        establish baselines in an expeditious manner.

    Transportation partially concurred with the first recommendation. 
To clarify our intention and address comments from Transportation, we 
added contextual language to this recommendation. The agency's planned 
actions should help meet the intent of our recommendation, if 
effectively implemented. Transportation concurred with the second 
recommendation. In December 2024, FAA officials stated that they do not 
have an update on actions they have taken to address these 
recommendations. They stated they would provide an update in March 
2025.
    In addition, we found that selected investments have progressed 
slowly. As discussed earlier, most of the selected modernization 
investments we reviewed plan to take many years before first deploying 
functionality and completing all deployment activities--with some 
taking as many as 15 to 19 years. Among other things, a key risk of 
slow system implementations is that the technology may be out of date 
by the time systems are implemented. For example, a November 2023 
National Airspace System Safety Review Team report found that while En 
Route Automation Modernization was initiated in 2004, it was not 
delivered until 10 years later.\23\ This process led to En Route 
Automation Modernization being deployed with outdated technology that 
needed a major technology refreshment within 5 years of implementation.
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    \23\ National Airspace System Safety Review Team, Discussion and 
Recommendations to Address Risk in the National Airspace System 
(Washington, D.C.: Nov. 15, 2023).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    We have previously reported that segmenting large complex system 
development and implementation efforts into smaller and more manageable 
increments has the potential to reduce risk and deliver capabilities 
more quickly.\24\ Since 2000, OMB has directed agencies to incorporate 
an incremental development approach into their policies and ensure that 
investments implement them.\25\ Further, since 2012, OMB has required 
that functionality be delivered to users at least every 6 months.\26\ 
Consistent with OMB's guidance, FAA's acquisition management policy 
states that the JRC is responsible for reviewing and approving 
investments that are organized as manageable segments.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \24\ GAO, Information Technology Reform: Agencies Need to Improve 
Certification of Incremental Development, GAO-18-148 (Washington, D.C.: 
Nov. 7, 2017); and High Risk Series: An Update, GAO-15-290 (Washington, 
D.C.: Feb. 11, 2015).
    \25\ OMB, Management of Federal Information Resources, Circular No. 
A-130 Revised, Transmittal Memorandum No. 4. OMB's 2012 and 2013 
guidance reaffirmed and strengthened these requirements. Executive 
Office of the President of the United States, OMB, Analytical 
Perspectives, Budget of the U.S. Government, Fiscal Year 2014, 
(Washington, D.C.: April 10, 2013), p. 354; and OMB, Contracting 
Guidance to Support Modular Development (Washington, D.C.: June 14, 
2012).
    \26\ OMB, FY 2016 IT Budget-Capital Planning Guidance (Washington, 
D.C.: May 23, 2014); Guidance on Exhibits 53 and 300--Information 
Technology and E-Government (2013); Guidance on Exhibits 53 and 300--
Information Technology and E-Government (2012).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    However, the Council had not ensured that selected investments 
deliver functionality in manageable segments. For example, the JRC 
allowed two investments (i.e., Enterprise Information Display System 
phase 1 and NextGen Weather Processor), to proceed even though neither 
was organized in manageable segments to deliver functionality 
incrementally.\27\ Specifically, the Enterprise Information Display 
System phase 1 investment was initiated 8 years ago and had not 
delivered any functionality to users. Similarly, NextGen Weather 
Processor was initiated 14 years ago and had yet to deliver any 
functionality to users.
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    \27\ The Enterprise Information Display Systems is intended to 
replace information display systems that display aircraft, 
aeronautical, and other types of information that are currently in use 
at approximately 400 facilities (e.g., air traffic control centers) 
with about 5,000 display systems. It was initiated in June 2016 and is 
estimated to be completed in December 2027. The NextGen Weather 
Processor is intended to replace FAA's aging weather processor systems 
and provide new capabilities, such as developing a common weather 
processing platform. This platform uses algorithms to create and 
display aviation-specific current and predicted weather. It was 
initiated in December 2010 and is estimated to be completed in April 
2026.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    FAA officials acknowledged that they should do more to identify 
opportunities to segment investments and deliver functionality to users 
more rapidly across all ATC system modernization investments.
    Specifically, in March 2024 the agency established a working group 
to develop guidance on segmenting investments. However, FAA officials 
did not provide specific time frames for developing and implementing 
this guidance.
    Accordingly, we recommended that FAA establish a time frame for 
developing and implementing guidance that the JRC ensures that ATC 
system modernization investments are organized as manageable segments. 
Transportation concurred with our recommendation. Similar to the 
previously discussed recommendations, in December 2024, FAA officials 
stated that they do not have an update on actions they have taken to 
address the recommendation. They stated they would provide an update in 
March 2025.
    In summary, FAA's reliance on a large percentage of aging and 
unsustainable or potentially unsustainable ATC systems introduces risks 
to FAA's ability to ensure the safe, orderly, and expeditious flow of 
up to 50,000 flights per day. In our September 2024 report, we 
emphasized that while FAA has ongoing investments aimed at modernizing 
aging ATC systems, the agency's progress to modernize some of the most 
critical and at-risk systems has been slow. As such, in our report we 
made seven recommendations to FAA aimed at, among other things, 
improving accountability of the replacement of these systems and 
reducing the amount of time the agency takes to modernize them. FAA 
officials were unable to demonstrate any actions they are taking to 
address our recommendations; however, expeditious implementation of our 
seven recommendations will be vitally important to help the agency 
manage risks while it addresses its unsustainable systems.
    Chair Duckworth, Ranking Member Moran, and Members of the 
Subcommittee, this completes my prepared statement. I would be pleased 
to respond to any questions that you may have at this time.

    Senator Duckworth. Thank you, Mr. Walsh.
    I now recognize Mr. Dean Iacopelli from the National Air 
Traffic Controllers Association.


          STATEMENT OF DEAN IACOPELLI, CHIEF OF STAFF,

         NATIONAL AIR TRAFFIC CONTROLLERS ASSOCIATION,

                            AFL-CIO

    Mr. Iacopelli. Good morning, Chair Duckworth, Chair 
Cantwell, and Ranking Member Cruz. Thank you for the 
opportunity to testify before you on this important subject.
    My name is Dean Iacopelli. I am Chief of Staff for the 
National Air Traffic Controllers Association, NATCA. I am a 
retired air traffic controller with over 30 years of 
experience, having been assigned to a facility responsible for 
separating aircraft in and around the New York City area.
    NATCA takes pride in our role as an aviation safety 
organization that stands shoulder-to-shoulder with Congress, 
the executive branch, and industry stakeholders to ensure that 
the national airspace system remains the safest and most 
efficient in the world. The 20,000 air traffic controllers and 
other aviation safety professionals represented by NATCA 
throughout the FAA, Department of Defense, and the Federal 
Contract Tower Program, are vital to the U.S. economy, ensuring 
the safe and efficient movement of millions of passengers and 
tons of cargo every day. Our mission is to ensure the flying 
public arrives home to their vacation, their business 
destination, without delay and while maintaining the highest 
margins of safety.
    I know that much of this hearing will be focused on safety 
and technology as well as funding for facilities and equipment, 
but I would be remiss if I did not first mention air traffic 
control staffing, which is the foundation of the air traffic 
control system. The national airspace system requires a 
sufficient number of trained air traffic controllers to meet 
the FAA's operational, statutory, and contractual requirements.
    Certified air traffic controllers are also vital to 
participating in the modernization, equipment, and procedures. 
We would like to thank this Committee for passing the FAA 
Reauthorization Act of 2024 with overwhelming bipartisan 
support. That law includes many critical provisions on hiring, 
training, and staffing, including directing the FAA to conduct 
maximum hiring for controllers for its duration. Congress has 
consistently provided the FAA with the resources it requests 
through both authorization of top-line numbers and the annual 
appropriations process.
    Currently one of the highest priorities for the FAA is to 
address the outdated FAA telecommunications infrastructure 
network, known as FTI. The FTI network affects radar displays 
that depict air traffic in real time and air-to-ground 
frequencies used to communicate with pilots. The network is 
largely comprised of copper wiring, which can no longer 
reliably meet the demand of the national airspace system. 
Recently, ground stops at airports in the New York City and 
Washington, D.C., areas highlight the consequences of a failure 
of the FTI network. The FAA must transition 4,600 sites away 
from copper wire and onto fiberoptic network to avoid extensive 
flight delays.
    The FAA operates more than 300 air traffic control 
facilities. The FAA's 21 air route traffic control centers were 
built in the 1960s, and have an average age of 62 years old. 
Fort Worth, Seattle, Kansas City, Chicago, and Houston centers 
are each between 59 and 64 years old.
    Our terminal facilities also require attention. The average 
FAA-operated tower is 36 years old. For example, Dallas-Fort 
Worth Airport has three air traffic control towers, which 
service one of the busiest airports in the country, the oldest 
of which is 50 years old.
    Many FAA facilities have exceeded their expected 
lifecycles. Others require new roofs, windows, HVAC systems, 
plumbing, and elevators. When major systems fail or facilities 
have structural problems, it can lead to flight delays or 
temporary airspace shutdowns. It is implausible to build the 
air traffic control system of the future in outdated and 
inadequate buildings.
    The national airspace system needs and deserves the best 
facilities and equipment to move this Nation's passengers and 
cargos. To sustain many of our legacy systems as well as to 
enhance and deploy new safety and modernization programs, the 
FAA projects that it will need $6 billion annually for its 
Facilities and Equipment account, which is a significant 
increase compared to recent years. Without this funding, along 
with continued focus on air traffic controller staffing, the 
FAA will struggle to maintain its capacity of the system, let 
alone modernize or expand it for new users and emerging 
technologies.
    NATCA's continued involvement as a productive and 
collaborative partner will ensure the FAA continues to deliver 
these initiatives to industry stakeholders and the flying 
public on time and at cost savings to the American taxpayers. 
If NATCA's trained and experienced representatives were not 
involved, many modernization programs would be delayed and 
experience cost overruns because they would need to go through 
costly and time-consuming revisions following the development, 
testing, and even after implementation.
    We look forward to working with this Committee, the 
Appropriations Committee, and the incoming administration to 
build on our successes and continue the safest period in 
aviation industry. Thank you.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Iacopelli follows:]

  Prepared Statement of Dean Iacopelli, Chief of Staff, National Air 
                Traffic Controllers Association, AFL-CIO
    Thank you for the opportunity to testify on behalf of the National 
Air Traffic Controllers Association, AFL-CIO (NATCA) at today's hearing 
titled ``U.S. Air Traffic Control Systems, Personnel, and Safety.''
    NATCA is the exclusive representative for nearly 20,000 employees, 
including the Federal Aviation Administration's (FAA) air traffic 
controllers, traffic management coordinators and specialists, flight 
service station air traffic controllers, staff support specialists, 
engineers and architects, and other aviation safety professionals, as 
well as Department of Defense (DOD) and Federal Contract Tower (FCT) 
air traffic controllers.
    NATCA takes pride in its role as an aviation safety organization 
that stands shoulder-to-shoulder with government and industry 
stakeholders to ensure that our National Airspace System (NAS) remains 
the safest and most efficient in the world. The air traffic controllers 
and other aviation safety professionals who NATCA represents throughout 
the FAA, DOD, and the private sector are vital to the U.S. economy, 
ensuring the safe and efficient movement of millions of tons of cargo 
annually within the National Airspace System (NAS).
    The NAS moves over 45,000 flights and 2.9 million passengers, and 
more than 59,000 tons of cargo every day across more than 29 million 
square miles of airspace. Although it is the safest, most efficient, 
and most complex system in the world, we should always strive to 
bolster safety, mitigate risk, and improve efficiency.
Executive Summary
    The FAA's two primary accounts for running the U.S. air traffic 
control system are its Operations\1\ (Ops) and Facilities and Equipment 
(F&E) budgets. Although the size of the F&E budget is roughly one-
fourth of its Ops budget, F&E funding is critical for developing, 
testing, deploying, and enhancing the systems that air traffic 
controllers and other aviation safety professionals use every day to 
ensure that more than one billion passengers annually arrive safely at 
their destinations.
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    \1\ NATCA supports the Department of Transportation's (DOT) Fiscal 
Year 2025 Operations budget request, which included an increase to 
$13.6 billion from the 2024 Continuing Resolution level of $12.729627 
billion, in recognition that the FAA will experience several 
uncontrollable cost increases of over $500 million, from personnel 
costs such as government-wide pay increases and annualized hiring from 
Fiscal Year 2024. The DOT's Fiscal Year 2025 budget request also 
accounts for a $43 million increase to hire and train at least 2,000 
new air traffic controllers to rebuild the controller staffing levels 
and meet current and projected traffic demands. This hiring target was 
established in accordance with the maximum hiring requirement in the 
FAA Reauthorization Act of 2024 and must increase in future years as 
the FAA Academy expands its capacity. In July 2024, the Senate 
Appropriations Committee approved this budget request in its Fiscal 
Year 2025 THUD appropriations bill, while the House THUD bill was 
slightly below that budget request amount.
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    These safety-critical systems must be continuous monitored, 
maintained, upgraded, and enhanced even after they are fully deployed 
across the NAS, while many contain physical components that have 
lifecycle expiration dates. Software enhancements and cyber security 
upgrades are also necessary to meet the growing demands of the NAS. In 
addition to increased commercial passenger and cargo traffic, the rapid 
proliferation of space launches and unmanned aerial systems must be 
integrated safely into the system by the workforce that keeps it 
running.
    F&E funding is also used to repair, update, and replace the FAA's 
rapidly aging physical infrastructure. Air traffic control facilities 
across the U.S. range from two to 82 years of age. Many controllers and 
other aviation safety professionals go to work every day in facilities 
that are plagued by leaking roofs, flooding basements that contain 
electronic systems, broken-down elevators and HVAC systems, and 
chronically backed-up bathroom toilets.
    NATCA's written testimony will focus these issue including: (1) 
controller staffing challenges and how they negatively affect 
infrastructure and modernization initiatives; (2) the concerns with 
FAA's rapidly-aging physical infrastructure; (3) the FAA's F&E budget 
requests to Congress understated its needs in previous years; and (4) 
illustrate how we, as a nation, are falling behind in our efforts to 
maintain and modernize the system.
    Importantly, this testimony will explain why NATCA must continue to 
be involved as a productive and collaborative partner across a wide 
range of safety, technology, and modernization programs to ensure that 
the FAA can deliver these initiatives to industry stakeholders and the 
flying public on-time and at a cost-savings to the American taxpayers.
I. Controller Staffing Challenges Continue to Hinder Infrastructure and 
                       Modernization Advancements
    NATCA continues to be focused on improving the system-wide 
controller staffing shortage. A properly-staffed controller workforce 
is necessary in order to safely and efficiently meet all of its 
operational, statutory, and contractual requirements, while also having 
the personnel resources to research, develop, deploy, and then train 
the existing workforce on new processes, technology, and modernization 
initiatives. Without a sustainable hiring, training, and staffing model 
like the one outlined in the FAA Reauthorization Act of 2024, which 
passed both chambers with overwhelming bipartisan support, the FAA will 
struggle to maintain the current capacity of the system, let alone 
modernize or expand it for new users.
    NATCA thanks the members of this subcommittee, as well as all 
Senators who championed the FAA Reauthorization Act of 2024. That law 
included many first-time provisions including directing the FAA to 
conduct maximum hiring for controllers for the duration of the bill and 
implementing expansion of the capacity of the FAA's Training Academy in 
Oklahoma City.
    After reaching its hiring targets for air traffic controller 
trainees three consecutive years, including increased targets of 1,500 
and 1,800 respectively the past two Fiscal Years, the FAA is finally 
starting to make some progress. After a decade of steady losses, in 
Fiscal Year 2023, the FAA added 15 additional Certified Professional 
Controllers and 15 additional trainees. In Fiscal Year 2024, the FAA 
added 140 CPCs and 189 trainees after accounting for attrition. Maximum 
hiring for the full duration of the bill will greatly assist the FAA 
achieve a staffing level required to meet all of its needs.
    The law also requires the FAA to implement the Collaborative 
Resources Workgroup's (CRWG) new, more accurate operational staffing 
targets on an interim basis, until the Transportation Research Board--a 
part of the National Academies of Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine--
completes a study to determine which staffing models and methodologies 
best account for the operational staffing needs necessary to meet 
facility operational, statutory, contractual and safety requirements of 
the air traffic control system. Proper and timely implementation of 
these provisions is essential to the safety, efficiency, and 
technological modernization of the NAS for the years to come.
    Congress must make the necessary investments in the FAA's rapidly 
aging physical and technological infrastructure, which need significant 
attention and additional funding. But, staffing and infrastructure are 
inextricably linked, because it requires fully certified controllers to 
develop, test, deploy, and train new technology, while at the same time 
meeting the safety and efficiency requirements of the system.
II. FAA's Physical Infrastructure is Rapidly Aging and Many Facilities 
                Have Exceeded Their Expected Lifecycles
    The FAA operates more than 300 air traffic control facilities of 
varying ages and conditions. The FAA's 21 Air Route Traffic Control 
Centers (ARTCCs) located in the continental United States were built in 
the 1960s and are more than 60 years old. The FAA's Terminal Radar 
Approach Control facilities (TRACONs) are on average more than 25 years 
old. In addition, the FAA has 132 combined TRACON/towers, which, on 
average, are approximately 35 years old. Finally, the FAA has another 
131 stand-alone Towers which average more than 30 years old.
    Many FAA facilities have exceeded their expected lifecycles. Others 
have major systems that have exceeded their expected functional 
lifecycle such as roofs, windows, HVAC systems, plumbing, and 
elevators, which no longer perform their necessary functions. Some of 
these issues have led to periodic airspace shutdowns and many others 
have led to safety concerns for the workforce. When these major systems 
fail, or facilities have integrity problems, it can lead to increasing 
delays, which negatively affect the flying public and our economy.
    The FAA is addressing its aging infrastructure through a 
combination of realignments, sustaining and maintaining some 
facilities, and replacing a handful of others. However, that process 
has been slow and hampered by funding constraints. The FAA will need a 
substantially increased investment in its F&E budget to adequately 
maintain, let alone, replace its aging infrastructure.
III. Congress Has Always Met FAA's Stated Budgetary Need For Facilities 
                             and Equipment
    The FAA, like much of the Federal government, has faced an unstable 
and unpredictable funding stream for the better part of two decades. 
Whether due to the risks of lapsed appropriations or authorizations, 
such interruptions have negatively affected all aspects of the FAA, 
making it increasingly difficult to maintain the safety and efficiency 
of the NAS. Even when the Agency is not facing the threat of a 
shutdown, multiple administrations from both parties have submitted 
insufficient FAA budget requests to Congress. FAA's requests have often 
fallen well-short of what it truly needs to adequately address the 
infrastructure needs of the NAS.
    Congress has consistently provided the FAA with the resources it 
requests through both authorization of top-line numbers and the annual 
appropriations process. However, because FAA has consistently requested 
too little, there are significant backlogs of NAS system sustainment 
and ATC facility sustainment, in addition to mounting delays in the 
implementation of NAS modernization and system improvements as well as 
ATC tower and radar facility replacement.
    The budgetary shortfalls also have not kept up with inflation over 
the past 15 years. For instance, the FAA has consistently requested 
only about $3 billion in annual appropriations for F&E throughout that 
period, even though in Fiscal Year (FY) 2024 the Agency's internal 
budgetary estimates showed that it needed at least $4.5 billion, with 
that need quickly approaching $6 billion. This loss of spending and 
buying power for F&E programs forced FAA into a ``fix-on-fail'' model 
by requiring it to prioritize mandatory costs, leaving little to no 
money for modernization and infrastructure programs.
    Currently, NATCA believes that the Department of Transportation's 
FY25 Budget Request ($3.6 billion) for F&E is insufficient to meet the 
Agency's modernization and technological needs. To sustain many legacy 
systems, as well as to enhance and grow critical safety and 
modernization programs, the FAA projects that it will need $6 billion. 
At minimum, the NATCA projects that the FAA will need at least $4 
billion to simply sustain these programs and the rest of the NAS. 
Investments that merely cover the costs to sustain current equipment 
will be insufficient to develop and implement new technologies and 
integrate new users into the system.
    The FAA's FY 2025 budget request, for the first time in over a 
decade, acknowledges its true need, although not entirely through its 
F&E request. In addition to the $3.6 billion F&E request, FAA cites the 
$1 billion in funds authorized for 2025 through the Infrastructure 
Investment and Jobs Act as supplementing its facilities and 
infrastructure funding needs. It also proposes a new Facility 
Replacement and Radar Modernization fund that would dedicate $8 billion 
over the next five years--beginning with $1 billion in 2025--to replace 
or modernize aging air traffic control facilities. This includes 
modernizing 377 critical radar systems and more than 20 air traffic 
control facilities. We, along with a wide array of industry 
stakeholders, support this request.
    Recently, the FAA publicly shared its facilities and systems 
sustainment backlog, ongoing needs for both, and facilities and systems 
replacement and improvement funding requirements looking forward 30 
years into the future.


    The FAA must continue to be transparent with its need for increased 
F&E funding so that it can meet its own equipment sustainment, 
replacement, and modernization needs. If not, it will continue to 
exacerbate the FAA's significant sustainment and replacement backlog. 
Failing to maintain and replace critical safety equipment that has 
exceeded its expected life introduces unnecessary risk into the system. 
These funding limitations also have prevented the FAA from designing 
and implementing new technologies that will improve safety.
 IV. FAA is Lagging Behind in its Efforts to Sustain and Modernize the 
                                  NAS
    In the coming years, the FAA will face unprecedented safety and 
technological challenges. The continued development and rapid 
proliferation of commercial space operations, advanced air mobility, 
unmanned aerial systems (drones), and other new entrants could 
jeopardize the safety and efficiency of the NAS if they are not 
properly integrated into the existing system. It is critical that NATCA 
remain involved with the safe and efficient integration of these new 
technologies.
    For the past 15 years, the FAA and NATCA have worked together to 
develop and implement safety-critical modernization programs that would 
not be possible without our joint efforts. For instance, NATCA and the 
FAA have achieved collaborative and cost-saving successes on 
modernization programs such as En Route Automation Modernization 
(ERAM), DataComm, and Metroplex. Recently, the Agency and NATCA have 
been able to fast-track a surface surveillance situational awareness 
tool that will help controllers mitigate the risks associated with 
wrong-surface landings and runway incursions. These types of programs 
and initiatives enhance safety and produce efficiencies that reduce 
delays and save fuel, while also preserving the United States' position 
as the world leader in aviation.
    However, under-funding for F&E will jeopardize sustainment and 
significantly hinder progress for many safety and modernization 
programs including, but not limited to: FAA Telecommunications, En 
Route Automation Modernization (ERAM), Standard Terminal Automation 
Replacement (STARS), DataComm, Voice Switch, Airborne Surveillance, 
Ground Surveillance, Airport Lighting, Space Integration, Aeronautical 
Information, Information Management, Terminal Flight Data Management 
(TDFM), and Facility Replacement and Radar Modernization (FRRM).
A. The FAA's Looming Telecommunications Crisis
    FAA telecommunications are the backbone of the air traffic control 
system. The FAA needs extensive telecommunications services and 
networking capabilities to support the operation of the NAS and other 
agency functions. The FAA Telecommunications Infrastructure (FTI) 
program currently provides these services and networking capabilities 
through a service-based contract, in which the service provider 
continually updates the underlying technologies. The majority of FTI's 
telecommunication lines function on an aging copper wire 
infrastructure, which is an outdated and no longer readily supported, 
as many local phone companies are discontinuing service to copper wire 
equipment throughout the country.
    As a result, air traffic controllers throughout the U.S. are 
experiencing a steady increase in unexpected outages of air traffic 
systems. Recent ground stops at airports in the New York and 
Washington, D.C., areas highlight the risks and consequences of 
telecommunication network failures. To date, there are over 30,000 
services at over 4,600 FAA sites that must transition away from copper 
wire and onto a fiber optic cable network in order to avoid severe 
service disruptions and extensive flight delays.
    The FAA's Enterprise Network Services (FENS) program will replace 
existing copper wire infrastructure with a fiber optic network. As a 
result, FENS will be able to provide reliable and secure 
communications, information services, and networking capabilities to 
support NAS operations and agency administration functions. This will 
not only help to stabilize the telecommunications network but also pave 
the way for cloud-based services and reduce program development and 
sustainment costs. However, any discontinuation or disruption to the 
existing copper wire services without first transitioning to fiber 
optic services would lead to potential safety risks and/or significant 
delays in air traffic services.
    Because this is both a time-sensitive and a safety-critical 
program, the FAA is currently moving money from other safety-critical 
programs in order to replace legacy copper wire on a case-by-case 
basis. The FAA is also spending an additional $7 million per month just 
to maintain the legacy copper wire as they delay the fiber optic 
upgrades due to insufficient funding. Other FAA programs will continue 
to suffer funding cuts if this program is not adequately funded.
B. The NOTAM Crisis Harbinger of Future Disruptions
    Even before the FAA's telecommunications crisis, the FAA was 
working to mitigate the risks associated with its faltering Notice to 
Airmen (NOTAM) system, which has been the source of significant 
disruptions throughout the NAS. The NOTAM system is vital for sharing 
and disseminating safety-critical flight information between both air 
traffic controllers and pilots.
    However, in early 2023, a complete failure of the NOTAM system 
caused nationwide ground stop causing significant flight delays. 
Despite the known vulnerabilities and risks associated with the current 
system, the FAA will struggle to fund this program without increased 
F&E funding. At minimum, the FAA will need $154 million just to conduct 
further research on a replacement NOTAM system, but will need $354 
million to replace the broken NOTAM system.
    Much like the FAA's looming telecommunications crisis, the NOTAM 
crisis was not at the top of any F&E priority lists until after the 
2023 collapse resulted in cascading nationwide delays and ground stops. 
We need to learn the lessons from similar events in the past and chart 
another course, rather than repeat the same mistakes.
C. FAA Must Continue to Sustain and Enhance Automation Platforms
    Automation platforms such as ERAM and STARS deliver flight plan and 
surveillance information to air traffic controllers on a real-time 
basis. These platforms are the foundational systems that keep our NAS 
operating safely 24-hours a day, 7-days a week, 365-days a year.
    Over the past four years, air traffic levels have continued to grow 
at a rate of 6.2 percent per year post-COVID, excluding new entrant 
operations. Air traffic automation systems have components reaching 
end-of-life that need to be replaced. Due to historically flat F&E 
funding, as a result of the FAA requesting less than it needs to 
maintain the system, air traffic automation has been unable to meet the 
growing needs of the NAS reducing the efficiency of the system.
    In the near future, controllers will have to rely on this 
inadequate technology to maintain the safety and efficiency of the NAS. 
Without fully funding these programs, the FAA will need at least $265 
million just to maintain current functionality in FY25. However, at 
that level, the FAA would not be able to make additional enhancement 
upgrades for any of the current automation systems and some hardware 
replacements would be at risk. Because these platforms require 
continuous maintenance, it will cost the FAA $400 million in FY25 to 
update the hardware for these systems and enhance functionality 
controllers desperately need.
D. Surveillance Programs
    Air traffic surveillance systems encompass Radar, ADS-B, and GPS. 
Although ADS-B and GPS have been extremely beneficial for improving 
safety and efficiency, they do not replace the need to maintain legacy 
radar infrastructure. Modern radar technology is more cost-effective, 
requires less maintenance, and offers an increase in range visibility 
which will allow the deployment of fewer assets and maintain the same, 
if not improve, surveillance visibility throughout the system.
    At minimum, the FAA will need $212 million just to sustain current 
surveillance systems. Many components of legacy radars are past their 
end-of-life cycles and are no longer manufactured, while some other 
suppliers of ground radar equipment went out of business. Without 
replacing and upgrading these systems, the flying public is at risk of 
experiencing unexpected and significant flight delays and other 
disruptions to the system whenever these systems breakdown. The FAA 
requires $1 billion to modernize radar technology throughout the 
system.
E. NATCA Involvement Critical in Every Phase
    It is critical that NATCA remain a productive and collaborative 
partner throughout development, testing, training, and implementation 
across a wide range of safety, technology, and modernization programs. 
NATCA's continued involvement will ensure that the FAA continues to 
deliver these initiatives to industry stakeholders and the flying 
public on-time and at a cost-savings to the American taxpayers. If 
NATCA representatives were not involved throughout the entirety of the 
process, many modernization programs would be delayed and experience 
cost overruns, because they would need to go through extensive, costly, 
and time-consuming revisions following development, during testing, and 
even after implementation.
                             V. Conclusion
    In order to enhance aviation safety, efficiency, and modernize FAA 
physical and technological infrastructure, Congress must prioritize 
investment in F&E funding. Meeting the FAA's F&E budgetary needs for 
Fiscal Year 2025 and beyond will finally allow the Agency to address 
its significant backlog of facility and equipment maintenance, repair, 
and replacement. This increased funding also will allow the FAA to fund 
critical modernization programs that enhance safety while continuing to 
expand the NAS to account for the development and rapid proliferation 
of commercial space operations, advanced air mobility, unmanned aerial 
systems (drones), and other new entrants that must be properly 
integrated into the existing system.
    It is critical that NATCA remain directly involved throughout the 
safe and efficient integration of new technologies including research, 
development, testing, deployment, and training. NATCA's continued 
involvement will ensure that the FAA continues to deliver these 
initiatives to industry stakeholders and the flying public on-time and 
at a cost-savings to the American taxpayers.
    Of course, none of this is possible without adequate staffing of 
the system. FAA must continue to hire and train the next generation of 
air traffic controllers. Congress' mandate to maximize controller 
hiring over the next five years can only be accomplished if FAA's 
Operations budget needs are also met.
    NATCA looks forward to working members of this Subcommittee, the 
full Committee, the appropriators, as well as all other Members of 
Congress, aviation stakeholders, the incoming Administration, and the 
FAA to achieve these and many other mutually beneficial goals.
    Thank you for holding this important hearing and providing the 
opportunity to testify.


    *FAA reduced its FY 2019 hiring target from 1,431 to 907 following 
the 35-day government shutdown.
    **FAA reduced its FY 2021 hiring target from 910 to 500 due to the 
COVID-19 pandemic and increased its hiring targets for FY 2022--2024.

    These data are prior to the Collaborative Resource Workgroup's 
recommendation to establish new CPC staffing targets for FAA's 313 air 
traffic control facilities.

    CPC: Certified Professional Controller

    CPC-IT: Certified Professional Controller in Training (fully 
certified elsewhere, transferred to a new facility and began training 
there)

    DEV: Developmental (trainee)

    AG: Graduate of the FAA Initial Classroom Training Academy in 
Oklahoma City, newly hired, and started at their first facility as a 
trainee

    Senator Duckworth. Thank you, Mr. Iacopelli.
    I will now recognize Captain Ambrosi with the Air Line 
Pilots Association.

        STATEMENT OF CAPTAIN JASON AMBROSI, PRESIDENT, 
           AIR LINE PILOTS ASSOCIATION, INTERNATIONAL

    Mr. Ambrosi. Chair Cantwell, Ranking Member Cruz, Chair 
Duckworth, and members of the Subcommittee, thank you for the 
opportunity to testify and to present the perspective of 79,000 
commercial airline pilots of the Air Line Pilots Association 
International. My name is Jason Ambrosi. I am current and 
qualified 767 captain, and since January of last year I have 
been President of ALPA, the largest pilot union and the largest 
nongovernmental safety organization in the world.
    Our association's history of safety and security advocacy 
spans more than 90 years, and I am honored to continue that 
tradition by participating in today's discussion. Congress, as 
guided by this Committee, made important investments in the 
future of our aviation system when it passed a strong safety-
focused, five-year FAA reauthorization bill. By furthering the 
Federal commitment to modernizing our system, enhancing the air 
traffic controller and aviation workforce, and investing in 
technology, we are positioned to remain the global aviation 
leader.
    As operators in the system, pilots have a vested interest 
in the FAA sustaining legacy systems and advancing 
technological and infrastructure improvements to ensure the 
national airspace system remains safe and efficient. One of the 
biggest modernization initiatives in recent history is NextGen. 
The capabilities that have been implemented with NextGen have 
increased situational awareness and provided tools to help 
pilots make safe decisions through performance-based 
navigation, data communication, and ADS-B implementation.
    However, the system's potential is not being fully 
realized, in part because many airliners are not properly 
equipped to take advantage of these updated capabilities. As a 
result, pilots and air traffic controllers are forced to use 
work-arounds that allow us to operate aircraft with outdated 
equipment in today's complex system, all of which runs counter 
to the anticipated benefits of NextGen. Implementing 
communications, navigation, and surveillance with air traffic 
management, data communication systems, and ATC automation 
systems will allow controllers to monitor aircraft, improve 
communication between pilots and controllers for clearance and 
reroutes, and ensure aircraft line up on the correct runway.
    To the latter point, ALPA is pleased the FAA 
reauthorization addresses the need for terminal airspace 
automation display at small airports that have traditionally 
operated without these technologies.
    As I have testified previously before this Committee, we 
have seen several near miss incidents, including a particularly 
close call, as you mentioned, in Austin in February of last 
year, in which pilots were the final line in defense in 
ensuring safety.
    Time and time again, similar examples highlight that the 
presence of at least two highly trained and well-rested pilots 
on all commercial airline flight decks, at all times, is a 
major factor in why airline travel remains the safest form of 
transportation. The human element of pilots working together on 
the flight deck is irreplaceable. We are able to see, hear, 
feel, and react to issues in real time. As the Austin incident 
showed, we save lives.
    To respond to these concerns and augment the critical role 
of pilots on the flight deck, the Committee has helped ensure 
that legacy systems, including ASD-X, remain fully operational 
to provide air traffic controllers with timely alerts that 
prevent accidents and near misses.
    Similarly, the Committee has responded to these incidents 
with greater focus on runway incursions through the 
establishment of a policy for not tolerance for near misses, 
which expands FAA's focus on improving the ground operation of 
aircraft at airports, establishing the Runway Safety Council, 
and supporting discretionary airport grant programs for runway 
safety projects.
    Unfortunately, underinvestment, including for facilities 
and equipment account, is affecting the systems pilots and air 
traffic controllers use to ensure safe and efficient 
operations. While Congress has provided the funding requested 
each year by the FAA during the annual appropriations process, 
there remains a significant shortfall in numerous maintenance 
and modernization efforts. Resources have not kept up with 
inflation, and effectively require the agency to prioritize 
sustainment to the detriment of modernization and 
infrastructure needs. The FAA must ask Congress for its true 
needs in order to sustain the legacy systems and make greater 
headway on NextGen to improve the NAS for pilots and all users.
    As a current and qualified airline captain with ongoing, 
firsthand experience in the National Airspace System, I can 
tell you that our commercial aviation system is safe, and I 
look forward to working with the Committee and the FAA to 
continue to improve aviation safety. Thank you.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Ambrosi follows:]

            Testimony of Captain Jason Ambrosi, President, 
               Air Line Pilots Association, International
    Chair Duckworth, Ranking Member Moran and Members of the 
Subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to testify and present the 
perspective of the more than 79,000 commercial airline pilots of the 
Air Line Pilots Association, International. My name is Jason Ambrosi, 
and I am a current 767 Captain at Delta Air Lines and president of ALPA 
since 2023. ALPA is the largest pilot union in the world and the 
largest non-governmental aviation safety organization with a history of 
safety and security advocacy spanning more than 90 years. I am pleased 
to participate in today's discussion about air traffic systems, 
personnel, and aviation safety.
    Let me affirm that as a current and qualified airline captain with 
a seat on the flight deck, our commercial aviation system is safe. 
However, while the U.S. aviation system remains the safest in the 
world, this outcome is not guaranteed. Safety is a matter of relentless 
vigilance, and our current success stems from decades of industry-wide 
efforts, and commitment to collaboration, data collection and analysis, 
hazard identification and mitigation, and congressional support. 
However, for the National Airspace System (NAS) to remain the safest 
and most efficient system, continuous improvements are needed to ensure 
that growth in traffic levels and new users do not threaten airline or 
system safety.
    Technological and infrastructure improvements are required to 
efficiently manage current NAS operations, with emphasis on NextGen 
automation tools and airport infrastructure improvements to provide 
safe and efficient gate to gate operations, reduced airborne reroutes, 
ensure that on time arrivals proceed directly to their gate, and cargo 
is delivered on time. Modernization must continue to keep ahead of the 
demand from the wide variety of aviation users. The technologies and 
procedures that are needed must also contemplate new entrants into the 
NAS. The future of air transportation will bring a combination of 
commercial air carriers, unmanned aerial vehicles, general aviation, 
urban air mobility devices, and commercial space flight. The airspace 
system of the future will involve a wider and more complex variety of 
operations that our air traffic control infrastructure must manage 
safely and efficiently. Additionally, many FAA facilities exceed their 
lifecycles and have deficient systems that create airspace and carrier 
delays.
    To the meet the challenges of an increasingly complex airspace, 
ALPA has worked with the FAA, our labor partners, airlines, and the 
industry to deploy air traffic control modernization. One of the 
biggest modernization initiatives in recent history is NextGen. The 
capabilities that have been implemented with NextGen have increased 
situational awareness and provided tools to help pilots make safe 
decisions through performance-based navigation, data communication, and 
ADS-B implementation. However, the system's potential isn't being fully 
realized--in part because many airliners aren't properly equipped to 
take advantage of its updated capabilities. As a result, pilots and air 
traffic controllers are forced to use ``workarounds'' that allow us to 
operate aircraft with outdated equipment in today's complex system.
    Increasing safety and updating air traffic control systems requires 
increased resources, stable and reliable funding to ensure continuous 
FAA operations, and greater use of the Airport and Airways Trust Fund 
(AATF) to allow the FAA to more effectively leverage the Trust Fund's 
balance. This Committee did a phenomenal job with passage of five-year 
bipartisan FAA reauthorization bill that helps augment and develop 
advanced technologies, including new surface safety technologies, 
equally important so-called ``low tech'' safety technologies for 
runways, lighting and signage, as well as increasing air traffic 
controller hiring.
    Underinvestment, including for the Facilities and Equipment (F&E) 
account, is affecting the systems pilots and air traffic controllers 
use to ensure safe and efficient operations. While Congress has 
generally provided the funding requested each year by the FAA during 
the annual appropriations process, there remains a significant 
shortfall of funding in numerous maintenance and modernization efforts. 
These shortfalls have not kept up with inflation and effectively 
required the agency to prioritize mandatory spending to the detriment 
of modernization and infrastructure needs. The FAA must ask Congress 
for its true needs and Congress should avoid unnecessary and damaging 
government shutdowns, threatened shutdowns, and lengthy Continuing 
Resolutions (CRs) that delay these critical efforts.
Aircraft Equipage to Support NextGen Procedures
    The NextGen modernization initiative has resulted in the creation 
of new performance-based navigation departures, arrivals, and 
instrument approaches. These procedures safely reduce noise, aircraft 
greenhouse gas emissions, and airspace congestion. However, not all of 
the airline aircraft can fly these new procedures. In some 
circumstances there may be 15-20 percent of the airline aircraft that 
are unable to utilize the new procedures. Unfortunately, air traffic 
controllers are unable to maintain the integrity of these operations 
with such high levels of non-equipped aircraft.
    For the NextGen procedures to become the standard, instead of the 
exception, the commercial airline aircraft fleet needs standardized 
equipage capabilities that meet the navigational requirements for 
flying the NextGen procedures. In recent years, there have been 
attempts to implement NextGen procedures with the assumption that 
pilots will utilize workarounds to offset the limited navigation 
capabilities on some of the aircraft. These workarounds often add 
complexity and workload, which is counter to the anticipated benefits 
from NextGen. In reality, pilots in lesser equipped aircraft are 
working harder to make the aircraft comply with the NextGen way of 
navigating. At times, instead of flying approaches with both precision 
lateral and vertical guidance that is automated with the assistance of 
an autopilot, pilots are also asked to hand-fly non-precision 
approaches on some of today's airline aircraft that lack the necessary 
NextGen navigation capability.
    While NextGen initiatives provide support for the NAS and augment 
pilot flying, a minimum of two pilots on the flight deck ensure 
redundancy that provides added awareness, expertise, and experience, 
factors that established and maintain today's safety standard. There is 
no technological or procedural pathway today or in the future that can 
overcome the risks introduced by reducing the flight deck compliment, 
including technological failures or anomalies, incapacitation, and 
issues associated with the human-machine interface. ALPA views flight 
deck technology and automation as a human support tool, not a 
replacement. Given an FAA-Industry Working Group found that 20 percent 
of ``normal'' flights experience aircraft malfunctions that require 
human intervention, the premise of transport category aircraft 
operation--including FAA's scientific study of fatigue, sleep inertia, 
and related regulation and guidance--must be based on a minimum of two 
well-trained plots on the flight deck.
CNS/ATM Improvements Would Benefit All
    When Communications, Navigation, and Surveillance (CNS) 
capabilities are integrated with Air Traffic Management ATM) systems, 
airspace management and air traffic operations become safer and more 
efficient. Surveillance technologies enable air traffic controllers to 
monitor aircraft and track their positions in real-time, increasing 
situational awareness and enabling proactive airspace management. 
Precise navigation systems enhance navigation accuracy and support 
optimized flight routing, attendant fuel savings, and reduced flight 
times. CNS/ATM contributes to increased airspace capacity, reduced 
delays, improved safety, and enhanced operational efficiency.
    Similarly, ADS-B, and ADS-C, as well as surface detection systems 
like Airport Surface Detection System Model X (ASDE-X) and Airport 
Surface Surveillance Capability (ASSC) are currently deployed runway 
safety systems that help prevent surface collisions and wrong surface 
landings. However, ASDE-X and ASSC are fully deployed at only 43 
airports. Our air traffic controller workforce needs these capabilities 
to be fully functioning at all of the airports where ASDE-X and ASSC 
are installed. ALPA has called upon the FAA to install surface safety 
systems at all airports with airline services. ALPA is pleased the 
FAA's efforts to rapidly develop a new surface capability, the Surface 
Awareness Initiative (SAI), has made significant progress this year. 
After fielding a SAI system at four airports this summer to validate 
the system's readiness for expansion, the FAA has expanded deployment 
to 14 more airports by the end of 2024. ALPA continues to call on the 
FAA to have a surface safety system installed at all airports with an 
air traffic control tower and where there are airline operations, as 
quickly as possible.
    ADS-B represents a major advance in efficient air traffic 
management and pilot situational awareness, with the potential to 
safely increase the capacity of the NAS. However, the use of ADS-B in 
oceanic airspace has lagged due to the severe difficulty of deploying 
ground stations on the water. Therefore, the FAA's original ADS-B 
program never planned for ADS-B in oceanic airspace. A solution 
currently available to the FAA is a service called space-based ADS-B. 
Simply put, the aircraft's ADS-B information is received by a satellite 
constellation instead of ground stations and relayed to air traffic 
controllers. Space-based ADS-B has the potential to provide 
surveillance information equivalent to en route radar surveillance over 
the ocean. In addition to surveillance, there is the safety benefit 
where the space-based ADS-B continuously tracks all aircraft. Should an 
aircraft be required to conduct a ditching into the ocean the precise 
location of the aircraft will be immediately known. Some have observed 
that with space-based ADS-B, there may no longer be the need for 
``search'' in ``search and rescue''. ALPA would support an FAA 
investment into Space Based ADS-B capabilities, as a supplement to the 
ground-based ADS-B network. The safety benefits we foresee would 
provide significant value.
ATC Automation
    There are many automation systems in the NAS that provide air 
traffic controllers with critical tools for the safe and efficient 
movement of aircraft, and they must continue to be updated. A recent 
update to the terminal airspace automation system has resulted in being 
able to track aircraft to ensure that they are lined up for the correct 
runway. This new capability is called the Approach Runway Verification 
(ARV) and is a significant safety advancement. ALPA was also pleased to 
see that the FAA reauthorization addresses the need for a terminal 
airspace automation display at small airports. Historically smaller 
airports have operated without any display of aircraft in the air 
traffic control tower, so that air traffic controllers can increase 
awareness of aircraft that are in the vicinity of the airport. The 
addition of a display in all air traffic control towers where there are 
airline operations is an important step in advancing safety across the 
NAS.
Voice and Data Communications
    NextGen's Data Communications system (Data Comm) supplements radio-
based voice conversations between pilots and air traffic controllers 
with digital, text-based messaging in the en route phase of flight. 
This often reduces the likelihood of missing or misunderstanding air 
traffic control clearances. Further, there is no need for the pilot to 
read back a message for accuracy. Data Comm also facilitates faster 
communications and can help increase operational efficiency in the 
national airspace. While the FAA has deployed Data Comm at air traffic 
control towers, the last shutdown cost taxpayers up to $8 million to 
repeat training for controllers at several facilities and further 
delayed implementation by 18 months. Beyond fiscal support, the 
vicissitudes of shutdowns interfere and plague NextGen implementation.
Future Demands on the NAS
    Higher fidelity CNS data and the ability to exchange this data in 
real time would allow better definition, geographically and temporally, 
of the protected airspace needed for space launch and reentry 
operations (both commercial and government-sponsored), and to 
disseminate this information to ATC and other airspace users.
    ATC modernization is necessary to support the integration of UAS. 
Small UAS (sUAS) will operate in airspace at altitudes that are 
generally considered to be ``below the NAS.'' The low altitude sUAS 
operations will need some form of assistance in ensuring safe 
separation to avoid collision with manned aircraft, other sUAS, 
terrain, and obstacles. The FAA's work in Unmanned Traffic Management 
is just getting started, and certain foundational decisions need to be 
made about the role of the FAA in offering low-altitude separation 
services. ALPA recommends that the air navigation services at low 
altitude be provided by the same service provider of all other airspace 
in the NAS. In other words, the FAA should be providing separation and 
surveillance services. This ensures consistent application of safety 
risk mitigation policies and procedures.
Funding Challenges
    Although Congress has authorized the FAA with funding for multiyear 
modernization projects, such as automation improvements or system 
upgrades, the FAA has underestimated its ongoing needs for facilities 
and equipment funding. This dynamic has built up over more than a 
decade, and it creates enormous challenges for the FAA to keep 
massively complicated projects on course and bring them to completion. 
Continuing resolutions, government shutdowns, authorization extensions, 
and other disruptions hinder the infrastructure modernization process. 
With all these issues at play, modernization of a critical system 
becomes a series of stop, replan, and restart. This is not a reliable 
or efficient approach to effectively plan and execute the modernization 
plan for our Nation's air traffic control infrastructure, which also is 
the world's largest and busiest airspace system. As called for in the 
2024 FAA reauthorization legislation, the FAA has the opportunity and 
the requirement to now provide Congress with a more accurate picture of 
its budgetary needs for facilities and equipment. Providing the FAA the 
resources it needs to complete the mission, across multiple 
appropriation cycles, is a key area where Congress can assist in 
ensuring that our Nation's air traffic control system will meet the 
needs of the millions of Americans who depend on safe and reliable air 
transportation.
Near Misses and Technology
    Last year I testified before this Committee on addressing near 
misses. First, I would like to commend the Committee for important 
provisions to improve safety and prevent near-miss incidents. The bill 
not only provides funding and stability for the FAA and FAA programs, 
but also for the latest safety technology on runways, for the hiring of 
more air traffic controllers, for workforce development, and a host of 
technological additives related to this hearing. Notable provisions of 
the legislation related to aviation safety, modernization, and 
expansion of additional capabilities for more airports, include:

   ALPA is pleased to see that the FAA authorization included 
        guidance to the FAA to ensure that legacy surface safety 
        systems including the ASDE-X system remain fully operational. 
        When fully functional the ASDE-X system provides air traffic 
        controllers with timely alerts that prevent accidents and near-
        misses.

   ALPA is also appreciative of the Committee's greater focus 
        on runway incursions through the establishment of a policy for 
        No Tolerance for Near Misses, which expands FAA focus on 
        improving the ground operation of aircraft at airports, 
        establishing the Runway Safety Council, and supporting 
        discretionary airport grant programs for runway safety 
        projects.

    ALPA looks forward to continued collaboration with the Committee to 
sustain and enhance safety. Thank you for the invitation, your 
continued focus on safety, and the opportunity to testify.

    Senator Duckworth. Thank you, Captain Ambrosi.
    I now recognize Mr. Dave Spero from the Professional 
Aviation Safety Specialists for his opening statement.

          STATEMENT OF DAVE SPERO, NATIONAL PRESIDENT,

    PROFESSIONAL AVIATION SAFETY SPECIALISTS, AFL-CIO (PASS)

    Mr. Spero. Good morning. Chair Cantwell, Ranking Member 
Cruz, Subcommittee Chair Duckworth, thank you for inviting me 
to testify on behalf of PASS. PASS represents approximately 
11,000 FAA and Department of Defense employees throughout the 
United States and abroad. These employees install, maintain, 
support, and certify air traffic control and national defense 
equipment, inspect and oversee the commercial and general 
aviation industries, develop flight procedures, and perform 
quality analyses of complex aviation systems used in air 
traffic control and national defense at home and abroad. Every 
day they work to ensure the safety and efficiency of an 
aviation system that transports over 2.9 million passengers 
across more than 29 million square miles of airspace. Their 
work is essential to the safe and effective operation of the 
aviation system.
    Unfortunately, challenges unrelated to employee expertise 
are limiting that effectiveness. PASS appreciates the 
opportunity to share information and recommendations regarding 
air traffic control systems, personnel, and safety.
    The largest PASS FAA bargaining unit is the Air Traffic 
Organization in the technical operations unit. There are 
approximately 4,000 technicians responsible for installing, 
operating, maintain, and repairing more than 74,000 radar, 
communication, automation, navigational aids, airport lighting, 
backup power, and HVAC systems at FAA facilities in support of 
the national airspace system. In February, PASS was asked to 
provide the Government Accountability Office with information 
regarding 135 FAA programs and services.
    To provide accurate, current information, PASS shared that 
list with Tech Ops employees nationwide and asked them to 
complete a survey. Their feedback was extensive and concerning. 
The challenges our technicians face range from dealing with 
aging equipment, navigating through cumbersome procedures, and 
limited availability of parts. The complexity of the systems, 
compounded by staffing and training inadequacies further 
exacerbates the situation.
    For instance, outdated technologies like Time Division 
Multiplexing hinder the swift implementation of new systems, 
while reliability concerns plague critical systems such as the 
advanced lighting systems for aircraft runways and fiberoptic 
transmission systems. The maintenance is increasingly 
challenging as systems become obsolete, necessitating 
specialized training and expertise. That being said, the 
technicians also interface with highly technical, state-of-the-
art cloud-based solutions, which is often overlooked.
    The most significant result of our survey was the clear 
indication that FAA employees, if adequately staffed, are 
capable and willing to perform the work to ensure successful 
implementation of new systems and equipment while also 
maintaining the aging systems as efficiently as possible.
    The biggest challenge from our perspective is a lack of 
vision on behalf of the agency. Compounding this challenge is 
the lack of an appropriate technician staffing model. The FAA 
has been developing the Tech Ops staffing model for over a 
decade, yet they are fully aware that today they are short at 
least 800 technicians. While PASS does not agree that the model 
is factoring in all the necessary data to determine the optimum 
number of technicians, it clearly reveals an understaffed 
workforce.
    The directives outlined in the FAA reauthorization bill are 
a roadmap for improvements. However, timely implementation is 
critical to their success. PASS thanks the lawmakers for 
including language in the 2024 reauthorization bill directing 
the agency to install 15 instrument landing systems that are in 
storage in Missouri. PASS-represented technicians are ready and 
capable of doing this. While the language in the 
reauthorization directs FAA to install the ILS within 18 months 
of the law's passage, our attempts to coordinate with the 
agency have gone unreturned. As far as PASS knows, the 
equipment, paid for by taxpayers, is still not in service.
    The FAA is simply not effectively using a key resource to 
address some of these challenges. The agency is ignoring the 
skill level and potential of more than 4,000 employees. The 
resources for the FAA to be effective are there. The FAA is not 
taking advantage of them.
    PASS thanks the Subcommittee for holding this important 
hearing. As always, the union stands ready to assist lawmakers 
and the agency to ensure the safety of the American flying 
public.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Spero follows:]

  Prepared Statement of David Spero, National President, Professional 
              Aviation Safety Specialists, AFL-CIO (PASS)
    Chair Duckworth, Ranking Member Moran and members of the 
subcommittee, thank you for inviting me to testify on behalf of the 
Professional Aviation Safety Specialists, AFL-CIO (PASS).
    PASS represents approximately 11,000 Federal Aviation 
Administration (FAA) and Department of Defense employees throughout the 
United States and abroad. PASS-represented employees in the FAA 
install, maintain, support and certify air traffic control and national 
defense equipment, inspect and oversee the commercial and general 
aviation industries, develop flight procedures, and perform quality 
analyses of complex aviation systems used in air traffic control and 
national defense in the United States and overseas. PASS members work 
to ensure the safety and efficiency of the aviation system that 
transports over 2.9 million airline passengers across more than 29 
million square miles of airspace (domestic and U.S. airspace over 
oceans) at over 65,000 facilities every day. The diversity of the PASS-
represented workforce provides insight into the safety of the system 
they maintain and the industry they oversee. PASS members are tasked 
with ensuring that the U.S. air traffic control system remains the gold 
standard of aviation safety. In fact, there has not been a major 
aircraft accident in the U.S. since the Colgan Air crash in 2009. That 
is a record for the FAA, its employees and the aviation community 
should be proud of this accomplishment.
    The work PASS members do every day is essential to the safe and 
efficient operation of this country's aviation system. Unfortunately, 
challenges unrelated to employee talent and professionalism are 
limiting the agency's efficiency and effectiveness. These obstacles 
include the aging air traffic systems and facilities essential to air 
traffic control operations as well as related impacts on the technical 
workforce represented by PASS.
    PASS appreciates the opportunity to share information and 
recommendations regarding air traffic control systems, personnel and 
safety.
AIR TRAFFIC ORGANIZATION AND IMPACT OF AGING SYSTEMS
    The largest PASS bargaining unit at the FAA is the Air Traffic 
Organization (ATO) Technical Operations unit, consisting of technical 
employees who install, maintain, repair and certify the radar, 
navigation, communication and power equipment that comprises the U.S. 
National Airspace System (NAS).
    Within Technical Operations, PASS represents FAA airway 
transportation systems specialists, more commonly referred to as 
technicians. Technicians ensure the functionality of communications, 
computers, navigational aids and power systems vital to safe air travel 
and the mission of pilots and air traffic controllers. Technicians 
maintain aging systems while simultaneously interfacing with highly 
technical, state of the art cloud-based solutions, and this is often 
overlooked. PASS-represented employees in Flight Program Operations 
(AJF), Mission Support Services (AJV) and Air Traffic (AJT) also 
provide critical support to the system by conducting flight 
inspections, developing instrument flight procedures, handling 
administrative tasks and other important work.
    There are approximately 4,000 FAA technicians responsible for 
installing, operating, maintaining and repairing more than 74,000 
radar, communications, automation, navigational aids, airport lighting, 
backup power, heating, ventilation and air conditioning (HVAC) at FAA 
facilities.\1\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \1\ Federal Aviation Administration, Airway Transportation Systems 
Specialists, updated October 6, 2022. Accessed December 10, 2024: 
https://www.faa.gov/jobs/career_fields/aviation_careers/atss_join. This 
number does not reflect the number of technicians that are fully 
certified.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Technician Input Regarding Aging Systems
    In February, PASS was granted the opportunity to provide the 
Government Accountability Office (GAO) with information regarding 135 
FAA programs and services. In order to provide the GAO with the most 
accurate and current information, PASS shared the list of programs and 
services with Technical Operations employees throughout the country and 
asked them to complete a survey. In addition to providing information 
on systems not on the GAO's list, the results of the survey indicate 
top concerns are related to aging equipment, cumbersome procedures, 
parts that are unreliable or unavailable, system complexity, and 
staffing and training of the workforce. At the rapid pace with which 
technology changes, the FAA is getting further behind in replacing 
aging systems.
    However, the most significant result of the survey was the clear 
indication that FAA employees are capable and willing to perform the 
work to ensure successful implementation of new systems and equipment 
while also maintaining the aging system as efficiently as possible. The 
biggest challenge is a lack of vision on behalf of the agency.
    The length of time it takes the FAA to implement new systems is 
directly related to the fact that current NAS systems and equipment are 
becoming obsolete. As stated by the GAO, ``During Fiscal Year 2023, FAA 
determined that of its 138 ATC systems, 51 (37 percent) were 
unsustainable and 54 (39 percent) were potentially unsustainable.'' \2\ 
According to PASS members who were surveyed, a key reason for ATC 
system sustainment issues is the inability to implement new systems 
quickly enough.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \2\ U.S. Government Accountability Office, Air Traffic Control: FAA 
Actions Are Urgently Needed to Modernize Aging Systems, GAO-24-107001, 
September 23, 2024, p. 15.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    For instance, many facilities are still relying on an aging 
communications technology known as Time Division Multiplexing (TDM). 
TDM is a method of combining multiple data streams into a single 
communication channel by allocating specific time slots for each data 
stream. Use of this antiquated technology is not only inefficient, but 
it is unnecessarily costly. Telecommunication companies now use carrier 
ethernet and are not required by the Federal Communications Commission 
to support TDM technology. The FAA was aware of the change and that 
PASS-represented employees could assist in the transition. 
Unfortunately, the FAA is still relying on TDM and is being charged a 
premium by communications companies that no longer regularly use the 
technology. The agency has been informed by a communications company 
that maintaining the current technology is going to cost $85 million a 
year. According to the FAA, it was an unanticipated expense that will 
come from operational funds. This will most certainly delay the 
implementation of the FAA Enterprise Network Services program (FENS) 
since the agency cannot progress on FENS until TDM is phased out and 
other infrastructure is upgraded as well.\3\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \3\ Federal Aviation Administration, ``FAA Enterprise Network 
Services Program,'' updated July 25, 2023. Accessed December 10, 2024: 
https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/technology/cinp/fens.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Another member who was surveyed cited key concerns with the High 
Intensity Approach Lighting System with Sequenced Flashing Lights 
(ALSF-2). The ALSF-2 is an approach lighting system (ALS), which 
provides the basic means to transition from instrument flight to visual 
flight for landing. This provides visual information on runway 
alignment, height perception, roll guidance and horizontal references 
for Category II/III instrument approaches.
    ALSF is critical for an airport in low visibility weather 
situations. If it is not working, the airport is downgraded, which 
means some aircraft cannot land. An ALSF system failure would 
constitute significant delays to an airport and the NAS overall in 
instrument flight rules (IFR) conditions. However, due to the age of 
this system, light rebuild kits for ALSF are not reliable. Lighted 
navigational aids require regular parts replacement and fail often. If 
an outdated replacement part is either unreliable or unavailable, the 
impact on the system could be far-reaching.
    PASS is also concerned with the FAA's Fiber Optic Transmission 
System (FOTS) and the associated complications with the system due to 
its age. FOTS is an electronics architecture for using fiber optic 
telecommunications equipment and systems at major airports. According 
to a PASS-represented employee at one of those airports, the system 
faces several challenges due to aging parts, which are not readily 
available. When a failure occurs, an airport loses access to the system 
until technicians can travel to the sites and correct the issue. This 
is not something that will be resolved by the eventual implementation 
of FENS as it is considered `inside the fence' (within the actual 
airport fence). Furthermore, due to the age of FOTS, no FAA training 
exists for the related equipment. The number of technicians who were 
trained are retired or approaching retirement.
Technical Operations Staffing and Training
    It is impossible to discuss any issue related to the technician 
workforce at the FAA without highlighting the importance of staffing 
and training.
    Insufficient technician staffing can result in increased 
restoration times and more air traffic delays during an outage. It can 
also make it difficult to ensure adequate shift coverage by 
technicians, another scenario that increases the risk of major air 
traffic issues. PASS has long called attention to not only the need for 
sufficient technical staffing but also the lack of a reliable staffing 
model on which to base staffing decisions and placement.
    However, hiring and training new technicians is not a quick or easy 
process. FAA technicians must be skilled and proficient on multiple 
systems. It can take up to three years to fully train an FAA technician 
to perform all necessary duties related to the position. In addition, 
the FAA is still playing catch up after its training academy in 
Oklahoma City was shuttered during the COVID-19 pandemic. According to 
the Department of Transportation Inspector General (IG), ``Most FAA 
systems require specific training and certification, and FAA does not 
typically train maintenance technicians on every equipment type. 
Therefore, individual maintenance technicians cannot work on all 
equipment, increasing the complexity of the technician workforce 
planning effort.'' \4\ In addition, the FAA does not hire new 
technicians before experienced technicians retire. That training and 
expertise walks out the door without mentoring the next generation of 
employees. In 2024, 33 percent of the technicians PASS represents were 
age 55 or older.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \4\ Department of Transportation Inspector General, Opportunities 
Exist for FAA To Strengthen Its Workforce Planning and Training 
Processes for Maintenance Technicians, Report No. AV2023027, May 2, 
2023, p. 6.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    In discussions with the FAA, staff have been developing the 
Technical Operations staffing model (TSM) for over a decade and are 
aware that the workforce is short at least 800 technicians. While PASS 
does not agree that the TSM is factoring in all the necessary data to 
determine the optimum number of technicians, it nonetheless reveals an 
understaffed workforce. PASS stands ready to assist the FAA with a 
staffing plan that will take into consideration all the elements of the 
position, including the responsibility of ensuring the safe and 
efficient operation of aging and new systems and equipment.
RECOMMENDATIONS
    PASS is extremely proud of the work our members do every day in 
Technical Operations. These dedicated public servants go above and 
beyond the usual call of duty to ensure the safety of the American 
flying public and should not be hampered by challenges because of 
outdated or aging systems and equipment.
    Expediting new systems into the NAS is the obvious solution to the 
issue at hand. This has been the solution for years. Using resources 
outside the agency to upgrade aging systems has been neither efficient 
nor cost effective. By utilizing the workforce it already has, the FAA 
could repurpose funds being spent on costly contractors and bring the 
work in-house. Unfortunately, the FAA has lacked the motivation to do 
so.
    PASS strongly emphasizes that the FAA technical workforce could be 
ready to assist the agency with updating and/or replacing its aging 
systems and equipment if the workforce was properly staffed around the 
country for such a task. They are uniquely qualified and have the 
expertise to accomplish this work if the workforce was augmented.
    PASS thanks lawmakers for including language in the 2024 FAA 
reauthorization bill directing the agency to install 15 taxpayer-
purchased instrument landing systems (ILS) that are in storage in 
Independence, Missouri. The technicians PASS represents are ready and 
capable of completing this task.\5\ This is a prime example of the FAA 
taking steps toward identifying a solution but then failing to complete 
the work to implement it. While the language in the reauthorization law 
directs the FAA to install the ILS within 18 months of the law's 
passage (May 2024), PASS's attempts to coordinate with the agency to 
begin the project have gone unreturned. As far as PASS knows, the 
equipment--paid for by the taxpayer--is still not in service.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \5\ MCO NAV, ``ORL Glideslope Shelter Replacement,'' July 12, 2021. 
Accessed December 10, 2024: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKP1o5Pl_w.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    PASS has additional concerns related to the agency's procurement 
processes, some of which go back decades. However, pinpointing the 
FAA's procurement and decommissioning strategy is not the 
responsibility of PASS. The union believes that the agency must conduct 
a full safety review and analysis before making any major changes to 
the operation of the NAS. As part of that process, the FAA should meet 
with PASS and other impacted labor unions.
    Furthermore, the Airport and Airway Trust Fund is underutilized. 
Given projections by the Congressional Budget Office, the Fund is 
likely to triple over the next 10 years and have a balance of over $17 
billion that should be utilized for the modernization of the NAS.\6\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \6\ Congressional Budget Office, Airport and Airway Trust Fund 
Baseline Projections, June 2024.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    PASS-represented employees are the solution to the issues 
surrounding FAA aging systems and equipment. FAA technicians are the 
only individuals with the skill and knowledge to ensure the safe and 
efficient operation of this country's air traffic control system. These 
employees are also able to assist the agency in updating the current 
system and addressing any challenges with aging systems and equipment 
if the workforce is properly staffed.
    Quite simply, the FAA is not effectively using a key resource to 
address some of these challenges. The agency is ignoring the skill 
level and potential of more than 4,000 employees stationed across the 
country. The resources for the FAA to be more effective are there; the 
FAA is not taking advantage of the opportunity.
CONCLUSION
    The FAA must address aging systems and equipment throughout the NAS 
based on careful analysis combined with efficient and effective action. 
Given the pace of technology, many systems and equipment are on the 
path to becoming outdated every day. The technician workforce can be 
instrumental in assisting the agency in ensuring successful 
implementation and updates throughout the NAS.
    Congress must give FAA access to the Airport and Airway Trust Fund 
in order to fund the critical upgrades necessary to maintain the gold 
standard of the U.S. air traffic control system.
    PASS thanks the subcommittee for holding this important hearing. As 
always, the union stands ready to assist lawmakers and the agency every 
step of the way to serve the needs and safety of the American flying 
public.
                                 ______
                                 
                               ADDENDUM A
                   FAA Technical Operations Workforce
    The Technical Operations workforce at the Federal Aviation 
Administration (FAA) has diminished to a level that may lead to crises 
regarding the maintenance, repair, and certification of the National 
Airspace System (NAS). According to the FAA, in October 2014, there 
were approximately 5,810\7\ technical employees (consisting of 
occupational series 2101, 856, and 802). Since then, the numbers have 
steadily declined, to approximately 5,360,\8\ the COVID-19 pandemic 
slowed training for these highly skilled employees. The 2101 
occupational series makes up the bulk of the Technical Operations 
workforce.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \7\ FAA collective bargaining contract data, 21st pay period of 
2014.
    \8\ FAA collective bargaining contract data, 21st pay period of 
2024.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The current staffing of 2101 employees (21st pay period of 2024 
sent to PASS from the agency) is as follows:


    The workforce can be broadly defined in three categories. 
Apprentices, also known as trainees, or developmental employees are 
auxiliary to the workforce because they are still officially in 
developmental training. Journeymen have been recently certified but 
will continue years of ``on-the-job training'' to then specialize in 
skills and do the bulk of certification and restoration work on the 
NAS. However, there is no clear definition of progression for a 
journeyman. Lastly, specialists have been working in their field for a 
significant time and are experts in their given skill or subject area.
    The data suggests that the journeymen portion of the workforce has 
decreased substantially, by 960 employees, and represents the bulk of 
attrition of the 2101. Alternatively, the percentage of apprentices has 
almost tripled since 2014. These trainees should be certified at a 
higher rate and join the workforce as journeymen in a much timelier 
manner.
    This potential crisis is exacerbated by the fact that training has 
slowed considerably due to the pandemic. As a result, the percentage of 
trainees has increased to a level that is unacceptable. Journeymen are 
left to handle the bulk of the work. This has led to a workforce that 
is understaffed, under-trained and overburdened.


    The FAA needs to engage with PASS to create long-term staffing 
goals through a Workforce Plan. Simply developing a Technical 
Operations staffing model based on the current workforce does not take 
into consideration the growth of the NAS through Next Generation Air 
Transportation Systems (NextGen) technologies nor does it take 
advantage of the skills and abilities of this highly technical group of 
employees.


    Recommendation: The FAA needs to engage with PASS to create long-
term staffing goals through a Workforce Plan as it has for controller 
and safety inspectors. Simply developing a Technical Operations 
staffing model based on the current workforce does not take into 
consideration retirements or the growth of the NAS through Next 
Generation Air Transportation Systems (NextGen) technologies nor does 
it take advantage of the skills and abilities of this highly technical 
group of employees.

    Senator Duckworth. Thank you, Mr. Spero.
    I now recognize Mr. Marc Scribner from the Reason 
Foundation for his opening statement.

   STATEMENT OF MARC SCRIBNER, SENIOR TRANSPORTATION POLICY 
                   ANALYST, REASON FOUNDATION

    Mr. Scribner. Chair Duckworth, Chair Cantwell, Ranking 
Member Cruz, and members of the Subcommittee, good morning and 
thank you for the opportunity to testify before you today.
    My name is Marc Scribner. I am a Senior Transportation 
Policy Analyst at Reason Foundation, a national 501(c)(3) 
public policy research and education organization with 
expertise across a range of policy areas, including aviation.
    Throughout its 46-year history, Reason Foundation has 
conducted research on air traffic management, emerging aviation 
technologies, and their interactions with public policy. My 
testimony today focuses on institutional problems that are 
undermining efforts to modernize the infrastructure needed to 
support the continued air traffic volume growth in the national 
airspace system.
    GAO's September report adds to the reams of studies 
documenting wide-ranging problems facing FAA's air traffic 
control modernization efforts, which have been plagued by 
delays and cost overruns for decades. I commend GAO for its 
excellent analysis and support its recommendations.
    However, I believe the problems facing FAA run much deeper. 
A decade ago, my Reason Foundation colleague, Robert Poole, 
conducted an in-depth study on the relationship between 
innovation and the structure of and culture at FAA. He selected 
seven innovations in air traffic control and did brief case 
studies on each, observing how each innovation has been dealt 
with by FAA's Air Traffic Organization and its counterparts 
overseas.
    He identified an agency culture resistant to innovation and 
then developed five explanations as to why ATO status quo bias 
exists, which were subsequently validated by a panel of more 
than dozen expert peer reviewers.
    First, the ATO self-identifies as a safety agency rather 
than a technology service provider. Second, it faces a lack of 
or loss of technical expertise. Third, it faces a lack or loss 
of management expertise. Fourth, excessive agency bureaucracy 
is labeled as oversight. And fifth and finally, there is a lack 
of customer focus.
    These cultural problems reflect an underlying flaw inherent 
in ATO's institutional design. It exists as a service provider 
within the national aviation regulator that is, in turn, housed 
within the Department of Transportation. Its capital needs must 
compete with broader DOT and Executive Branch priorities and 
budget requests and then rely on inadequate annual 
appropriations.
    The ATO's institutional design was historically the 
dominant model for air navigation service providers globally. 
This picture has changed dramatically since 1987, when New 
Zealand became the first country to separate air traffic 
control from its Transport Ministry. Since then, nearly all 
industrialized countries have adopted a public utility model 
for air traffic control, and separating the provision of air 
navigation services from the Civil Aviation Authority has been 
a globally recognized best practice by the International Civil 
Aviation Organization for more than two decades.
    This organizational separation allows air traffic control 
to be regulated at arm's length, just like every other aviation 
player, and it resolves the fundamental conflict of interest of 
having a regulator also operate a service that it is tasked 
with regulating.
    Under the public utility model, air navigation service 
providers assess cost-based user fees paid directly to the 
providers. Providers can then issue revenue bonds based on 
their projected revenue streams, just as airports do today in 
the United States. It is through predictable user-based revenue 
collection that air navigation service providers outside the 
U.S. have been able to successfully finance large-scale capital 
modernization efforts. Air navigation service providers that 
operate as public utilities, funded by user fees, now number 
62, and serve 83 countries worldwide. In contrast, just 18 
countries besides the United States, mostly developing 
countries, continue to operate air traffic control as part of 
legacy civil aeronautics authorities that also regulate 
aviation safety.
    The modernization of existing air traffic management 
infrastructure in the United States continues to fall behind 
peer countries, and is straining from the continued operations 
and growth of conventional airspace users. The prospect of new 
airspace entrants raises even more questions about the ability 
of the U.S. to accommodate the future of aviation.
    The bottom line is this. Successfully modernizing air 
traffic control technology and service provision in this 
country will require institutional modernization.
    Thank you again for the opportunity to testify, and I 
welcome your questions.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Scribner follows:]

   Prepared Statement of Marc Scribner, Senior Transportation Policy 
                       Analyst, Reason Foundation
    Chair Duckworth, Ranking Member Moran, and Members of the 
Subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to testify before you 
today. My name is Marc Scribner. I am a senior transportation policy 
analyst at Reason Foundation, a national 501(c)(3) public policy 
research and education organization with expertise across a range of 
policy areas, including aviation.\1\ Throughout its 46-year history, 
Reason Foundation has conducted research on air traffic management, 
emerging aviation technologies, and their interactions with public 
policy. My testimony today focuses on institutional problems that are 
undermining efforts to modernize the infrastructure needed to support 
the continued air traffic volume growth in the National Airspace 
System.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \1\ My biography and writings are available at https://reason.org/
author/marc-scribner/.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
                            I. Introduction
    The United States was once the global leader in airspace 
management. However, in recent decades, we have fallen behind peer 
countries that have modernized their air traffic control practices and 
technologies. The Federal Aviation Administration's (FAA) modernization 
program, known as the Next Generation Air Transportation System 
(NextGen), has been plagued by cost overruns and delays. This bodes 
poorly for anticipated traffic growth from conventional airspace users 
and raises serious questions about long-term efforts to integrate 
emerging aviation technologies and operations--such as unmanned 
aircraft systems and advanced air mobility--into the National Airspace 
System (NAS).
    Our increasingly obsolete air traffic control system is preventing 
airspace users from realizing benefits today while also threatening the 
future integration of emerging aviation technologies into the NAS. 
While there are many problems facing FAA's Air Traffic Organization 
(ATO) generally and NextGen specifically, they can be grouped into 
three categories:

   Funding: uncertain, unstable, and poorly suited to paying 
        for large-scale capital modernization programs such as NextGen.

   Governance: a system with so many legislative branch and 
        Executive Branch overseers that it focuses ATO management 
        attention far more on overseers than on ATO's aviation 
        customers.

   Culture: an organizational culture that is status-quo 
        oriented.

    These are all interrelated. The uncertain nature of the annual 
appropriations process makes it difficult for the ATO to complete major 
procurements in a timely fashion. As a governmental entity charged with 
regulating safety while providing air navigation services, 
unfortunately, FAA focuses on remaining accountable to its many 
political and administrative overseers rather than the users of its 
navigation services. FAA's dual regulator/service provider mission also 
presents a fundamental conflict of interest.
        II. Problems Identified in the GAO Report and Responses
    September's Government Accountability Office (GAO) report 
catalogued a lengthy list of problems plaguing FAA efforts to modernize 
aging, outdated air traffic control (ATC) systems.\2\ GAO researchers 
identified 138 ATC systems, and its assessment found that 37 percent 
are unsustainable (i.e., need to be replaced) and 39 percent are 
potentially unsustainable. And 58 of those systems ``have critical 
operational impacts on the safety and efficiency of the national 
airspace.''
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \2\ Government Accountability Office, ``Air Traffic Control: FAA 
Actions Are Urgently Needed to Modernize Aging Systems,'' GAO-24-107001 
(Sep. 23, 2024). Available at https://www.gao.gov/products/gao-24-
107001.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Even worse, GAO found that FAA has 64 ongoing efforts aimed at 
modernizing 90 of the unsustainable and potentially unsustainable 
systems. But current FAA plans show that many of these systems will 
still be in operation for between six and 13 more years before being 
either replaced or modernized. Table 3 in the report lists 17 of the 
``most critical and at-risk'' ATC systems, all of which are 
``unsustainable'' and shows that 13 of them are not projected to be 
replaced until the 2030s--and that four of them have no modernization 
investment underway at all. GAO notes that the reason four at-risk 
systems have no modernization plans is because the 2023 operational 
risk assessment was not completed in time for those four to be 
included.
    GAO referenced the November 2023 report of the National Airspace 
System Safety Review Team,\3\ which highlighted several aging systems 
as indicative of broader problems:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \3\ ``Discussion and Recommendations to Address Risk in the 
National Airspace System,'' National Airspace System Safety Review Team 
(Nov. 2023). Available at https://www.faa.gov/
NAS_safety_review_team_report.pdf.

   Airport Surface Detection Equipment Model-X (ASDE-X), 
        deployed in the early 2000s to track surface movements and 
        alert controllers to potential conflicts, is no longer in 
        production and ``spare parts are extremely limited.'' \4\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \4\ Government Accountability Office, supra note 2, at 7.

   Beacons used for en-route surveillance, with 20-year-old 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
        transponders and no available replacement antennas.

   Instrument landing systems (ILSs), most of which are at 
        least 25 years old and for which manufacturer support is no 
        longer available.

    GAO highlighted comments from the Safety Review Team and from both 
the National Air Traffic Controllers Association and Professional 
Aviation Safety Specialists that ``should be timelier in identifying 
and addressing concerns with unsustainable systems given the length of 
time it takes to move through the acquisition process.'' \5\ Table 4 of 
GAO's report shows that it can take between two and nearly nine years 
``to establish an acquisition program baseline'' once a candidate 
system has been identified. This means that the time from the start of 
program planning to delivery of a modernized or replacement system can 
range from 5.5 years to as much as 19.5 years, by which time many 
selected technologies will be obsolete.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \5\ Id. at 22
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    In response to GAO's September report, numerous stakeholders 
contacted Reason Foundation to share their experiences with FAA's ATC 
modernization efforts.\6\ These responses offer insight into FAA's 
particular failures. I highlight three below.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \6\ Robert W. Poole, Jr., ``Responses to GAO Report on Aging FAA 
Systems,'' Aviation Policy News, No. 228, Reason Foundation (Nov. 
2024). Available at https://reason.org/aviation-policy-news/spirit-
bankruptcy-space-launches-and-response-to-report-on-aging-faa-systems/
#a.

   A recently retired FAA engineer explained a general cultural 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
        problem within the agency:

                Political overseers have made over FAA in their own 
                image, putting people in charge of things for which 
                they are not qualified: engineering programs run by 
                non-engineers, operations run by non-operational 
                people, logistics run by non-logisticians. The systems 
                engineering that FAA once had has been destroyed.  . . 
                . I hope the GAO report elicits some positive action, 
                but I wouldn't bet on it. It's an accident waiting to 
                happen, but until it does, the current ``leadership'' 
                is just making sure they don't get blamed for it.

   A consultant who has worked within and external to FAA wrote 
        in with disturbing details on specific aging ATC systems, 
        including Mode-S:

                Mode-S (secondary surveillance radar) is in such poor 
                condition that it is operated in violation of FAA's own 
                commissioning orders for technician certification of 
                its operational performance. As many as half of current 
                Mode-S systems are operated in ``IBI,'' meaning they 
                have zero Mode-S accuracy and capability. Accuracy of 
                these radar systems drives the separation criteria of 
                three and five miles near airports and in en-route 
                airspace. The lack of this radar input makes the 
                surveillance fusion with ADS-B less accurate and 
                reliable. This data is what feeds the automation inputs 
                of both en-route and terminal airspace.

   An engineering manager at a European aviation technology 
        company compared FAA's modernization efforts and procurement 
        process to those of gold-standard ANSP Nav Canada:

                Look at Nav Canada. How many primary radar types do 
                they have for terminal surveillance? One. How many does 
                FAA have? Three, dating back to the 1980s. The 
                manufacturers of two of them are out of business. FAA 
                has four types of secondary/beacon radars. Nav Canada 
                does a wholesale replacement, launching a project at 
                the end of life to replace them all at once. Nav Canada 
                has one primary switch for all systems: tower, 
                approach, and en-route. One backup switch for all. They 
                just did a replacement tender for them all . . . FAA is 
                never a single buy. All are indefinite quantity 
                contracts. So suppliers deliver 10 to 20 systems a 
                year. It is the [indefinite delivery/indefinite 
                quantity] type of contract process, related to funding, 
                that does not allow for a realistic replacement.

    GAO also reports that FAA budget requests for facilities and 
equipment ``have remained relatively constant at about $1 billion 
annually.'' \7\ While NextGen's flat budget is indeed a problem, GAO 
does not mention the two reasons why FAA has been unable to request 
adequate financial support for modernization. First, FAA's budget 
request must be approved by the Secretary of Transportation. Second, 
the Office of Management and Budget has the last word on how much the 
Department of Transportation (and hence FAA) can request.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \7\ Government Accountability Office, supra note 2, at 10
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    This is not how critically important public utilities operate, 
whether government-owned or investor-owned. Utilities plan their 
capital spending needs and obtain approval to set their rates to 
provide the needed revenue streams to pay off bonds used to finance 
large facility and equipment investments. That is true of Federal 
government utilities like the Tennessee Valley Authority, but nothing 
like that process exists for FAA's ATC system. It has no bonding 
authority, must compete against unrelated Department of Transportation 
and broader Executive Branch priorities, and then depend solely on 
inadequate annual appropriations from Congress.
           III. Problems with FAA ATO's Institutional Design
    A decade ago, my Reason Foundation colleague Robert Poole conducted 
an in-depth study of the structure of and culture at FAA and their 
relationship to innovation.\8\ He selected seven innovations in air 
traffic control and did brief case studies on each, observing how each 
innovation has been dealt with by the ATO and its counterparts 
overseas. In each of these, he found that ATO's approach was far more 
hesitant than that of air navigation service providers (ANSPs) in other 
countries that are structured as public utilities. He then developed 
five explanations of why this status-quo bias exists, which were 
subsequently validated by a panel of more than a dozen expert peer 
reviewers.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \8\ Robert W. Poole, Jr., ``Organization and Innovation in Air 
Traffic Control,'' Reason Foundation Policy Study 431 (Jan. 2014). 
Available at https://reason.org/wp-content/uploads/files/
air_traffic_control_organization_innovation.pdf.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    These five identified detrimental institutional deficiencies at 
FAA's ATO are as follows:

  1.  Self-identity as a safety agency rather than as a technology 
        provider. This stems from the ATO being embedded within FAA, 
        whose mission is safety. Nearly all the innovations relevant to 
        NextGen come from the aerospace/avionics industry, which has a 
        much more innovative, dynamic culture. Those companies are 
        regulated at arm's length by FAA--but the ATO is embedded 
        inside the regulator.

  2.  Lack of, or loss of, technical expertise. Partly due to its 
        status-quo culture and partly due to civil service pay scales, 
        the FAA has a chronic problem with not attracting or not being 
        able to retain the best engineers and software professionals. 
        This means that a lot of the detailed requirements for new air 
        traffic control and aviation systems end up being defined by 
        contractors, which can lead to costly additions that make the 
        systems more complex and costly than necessary.

  3.  Lack of, or loss of, management expertise. For the same reasons 
        that FAA has limited technical expertise, it also has trouble 
        attracting and keeping top-notch program managers who are used 
        to being held accountable for results.

  4.  Excessive bureaucracy labeled as oversight. Inherent in being a 
        large government agency that is spending taxpayers' money, the 
        FAA must be held accountable to all the normal government 
        overseers. The ATO must respond to oversight by the FAA 
        Administrator, the Secretary of Transportation, the Office of 
        Inspector General, the Office of Management and Budget, the 
        GAO, and up to 535 Members of Congress. While safety is the top 
        priority, responding to the requests and whims of all these 
        overseers takes up a large amount of senior management's time.

  5.  Lack of customer focus. Because the ATO gets its funding from 
        Congress, it ends up--de facto--acting as if its customer is 
        Congress rather than the aviation customers it is supposed to 
        serve.
        IV. The Global Air Navigation Service Provider Landscape
    The status-quo ANSP model in the United States was historically the 
dominant model globally, whereby air traffic control was provided by a 
civil aviation authority within the transport ministry. That model has 
undergone major change since 1987 outside of the United States, 
starting when the government of New Zealand removed its air traffic 
control system from the transport ministry by restructuring it as 
Airways New Zealand, a self-supporting government corporation. Within 
10 years, more than a dozen other countries had followed suit.
    Separating the provision of air navigation services from the civil 
aviation authority and putting the ANSP at arm's length from its safety 
regulator, like all the other key players in aviation--airlines, 
business aviation, general aviation, airframe manufacturers, engine 
producers, pilots, mechanics, and so forth--is now the globally 
recognized best practice. For more than two decades, this has been 
International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) policy.\9\ The United 
States is among the last industrialized countries that have not taken 
this step to eliminate the fundamental conflict of interest of having 
an aviation regulator also operate a service it is tasked with 
regulating.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \9\ International Civil Aviation Organization, Safety Oversight 
Manual, Doc. 9734, Part A, Paragraph 2.4.9 (2001).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The revenue source for ANSPs operated as public utilities is 
globally accepted cost-based user fees in accordance with the airport 
and air traffic control charging principles promulgated by ICAO.\10\ 
Prior to the conversion of these ANSPs to public utilities, those 
revenues were nearly always paid by airlines and other airspace users 
to the respective national governments. In most cases, once an ANSP has 
been converted to a utility, the user-fee revenue flows directly to the 
ANSP as its primary source of revenue. This makes it possible for the 
ANSPs to issue revenue bonds based on their projected revenue streams, 
just as airports do today in the United States and elsewhere. It is 
through their predictable streams of revenue that come directly from 
users that ANSPs outside the United States can successfully finance 
large-scale capital modernization efforts.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \10\ International Civil Aviation Organization, ICAO's Policies on 
Charges for Airports and Air Navigation Services, Doc. 9082 (9th 
Edition, 2012).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Globally, three ANSPs have been moved out of the government 
entirely under either an independent nonprofit user cooperative model 
or as partially privatized companies. Another 55 operate as wholly 
owned government corporations. Just 19--mostly developing countries, 
but also including the United States, Japan, and Singapore--operate as 
part of legacy civil aeronautics authorities that also regulate 
aviation safety. ANSPs that operate as public utilities funded by user 
fees now number 62 and serve 83 countries globally.\11\ Appendix A 
lists ANSPs around the world by governance model.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \11\ Marc Scribner, ``2024 Annual Privatization Report: Aviation,'' 
Reason Foundation (May 2024) at 26-29. Available at https://reason.org/
wp-content/uploads/annual-privatization-report-2024-aviation.pdf.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
                             V. Conclusion
    The modernization of existing air traffic management infrastructure 
in the United States continues to fall behind peer countries and is 
straining from the continued operations and growth of conventional 
airspace users. The prospect of new airspace entrants raises even more 
questions about the ability of the United States to accommodate the 
future of aviation, which would have significant negative impacts on 
the economy and safety. Evidence suggests that successfully modernizing 
the technology and service provision of air traffic management of the 
National Airspace System will require institutional modernization.
    Thank you for the opportunity to testify before the Subcommittee, 
and I welcome your questions.

  Appendix A: Air Navigation Service Providers, by Type of Organization
------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Country             ANSP          Organization Type        Notes
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Canada           Nav Canada         Nonprofit
                                     corporation
Italy            ENAV               Part investor-owned
UK               NATS               Part investor-owned
UK               Serco              Shareholder-owned
------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Albania          ALBCONTROL         State-owned company
Argentina        DGCTA              State-owned company
Armenia          ARMATS             State-owned company
Australia        Airservices        State-owned company
                  Australia
Austria          Austro Control     State-owned company   Also regulates
Belgium          Skeyes             State-owned company
Botswana         CAAB               State-owned company
Bulgaria         BULATSA            State-owned company
Cambodia         CATS               State-owned company
Croatia          Croatia Control    State-owned company
Curacao          DCANSP             State-owned company
Czech Republic   ANS CR             State-owned company
Denmark          Naviair            State-owned company
Egypt            NANSC              State-owned company
Estonia          EANS               State-owned company
Fiji             Airports Fiji      State-owned company
                  Ltd.
Finland          Finavia Corp.      State-owned company
Georgia          Sakaeronavigatsia  State-owned company
Germany          DFS                State-owned company
Hungary          HungaroControl     State-owned company   Also regulates
Iceland          ISAVIA             State-owned company
India            Airports           State-owned company
                  Authority of
                  India
Indonesia        AirNav Indonesia   State-owned company
Iran             Iran Airports      State-owned company
                  Company
Ireland          AirNav Ireland     State-owned company
Israel           Israel Airports    State-owned company
                  Authority
Kazakhstan       Kazaeronavigatsia  State-owned company
Latvia           LGS                State-owned company
Lithuania        Oro Navigacija     State-owned company
Macedonia        M-NAV              State-owned company
Maldives         Maldives Airports  State-owned company
                  Co.
Malta            MATS               State-owned company
Moldova          MoldATSA           State-owned company
Mozambique       Aeroportos de      State-owned company
                  Mocambique
New Zealand      Airways New        State-owned company
                  Zealand
Nigeria          NAMA               State-owned company
Norway           Avinor             State-owned company
Papua New        PNG Air Service    State-owned company
 Guinea
Portugal         Nav Portugal       State-owned company
Romania          ROMATSA            State-owned company
Russia           State ATM          State-owned company   Also regulates
                  Corporation
Serbia &         SMATSA             State-owned company
 Montenegro
Slovak Republic  LPS SR             State-owned company
Slovenia         Slovenia Control   State-owned company
South Africa     ATNS               State-owned company
Spain            ENAIRE             State-owned company
Sri Lanka        AASL               State-owned company
Sweden           LFV                State-owned company
Switzerland      Skyguide           State-owned company
Thailand         AEROTHAI           State-owned company
Turkey           DHMI               State-owned company
Uganda           CAA Uganda         State-owned company
Ukraine          UkSATS             State-owned company
Vietnam          VATMC              State-owned company
Zambia           NACL               State-owned company
------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bangladesh       CAAB               Civil aviation        Financially
                                     authority             autonomous
Cyprus           DCA Cyprus         Civil aviation
                                     authority
Dominican        IDAC               Civil aviation
 Republic                            authority
Ghana            Ghana CAA          Civil aviation
                                     authority
Greece           HCAA               Civil aviation
                                     authority
Japan            JCAB               Civil aviation
                                     authority
Jordan           CARC               Civil aviation        Financially
                                     authority             autonomous
Kenya            Kenya CAA          Civil aviation
                                     authority
Mongolia         CAA of Mongolia    Civil aviation
                                     authority
Myanmar          DCA Myanmar        Civil aviation
                                     authority
Nepal            CAA Nepal          Civil aviation
                                     authority
Saudi Arabia     GACA               Civil aviation
                                     authority
Singapore        CAAS               Civil aviation
                                     authority
Swaziland        SWACAA             Civil aviation
                                     authority
Taipei FIR       ANWS               Civil aviation
                                     authority
Tanzania         TCAA               Civil aviation
                                     authority
Trinidad &       Trinidad & Tobago  Civil aviation
 Tobago           CAA                authority
Tunisia          OACA               Civil aviation
                                     authority
United States    FAA                Civil aviation
                                     authority
------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Azerbaijan       AZANS              Government
                                     department
Brazil           DECEA              Government
                                     department
France           DSNA               Government
                                     department
Mexico           SENEAM             Government
                                     department
Netherlands      LVNL               Government            Financially
                                     department            autonomous
Poland           PANSA              Government
                                     department
United States    DOD Policy Board,  Government            Military
                  Aviation           department
------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Belgium          MUAC               Intergovernmental     Upper airspace
Honduras         COCESNA            Intergovernmental     6 countries
Senegal          ASECNA             Intergovernmental     17 countries
Angola           ENANA-EP           uncategorized
Haiti            OFNAC              uncategorized
Luxembourg       ANA                uncategorized
Sudan            Sudan ANS          uncategorized
Dubai            DANS               uncategorized
------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Senator Duckworth. Thank you, Mr. Scribner. I will now 
recognize myself for five minutes of questions.
    GAO found 17 of the 51 unsustainable air traffic control 
systems are critical, yet investments to modernize some of 
these will not be completed for more than a decade. Worse, as 
of May 2024, there was not even any modernization investment 
underway for four of these systems.
    Mr. Walsh, how worried should we be about these four 
critical and unsustainable systems for which there were not any 
modernization investments underway?
    Mr. Walsh. So as myself and the other witnesses have said, 
the national airspace is safe. It is safe to fly. But this is 
stressing the system, and the longer we wait, the worse it will 
get. So I am worried, but again, it is still safe to fly.
    Senator Duckworth. Thank you. Mr. Iacopelli, how worried 
are air traffic controllers about unsustainable critical air 
traffic control systems for which there are no modernization 
investments underway?
    Mr. Iacopelli. I will reiterate what has been said. The 
national airspace system is safe. We represent 15,000 
professional, trained, dedicated air traffic controllers who 
will do everything they can to maintain the safety of the 
system. They are the failsafe, along with the pilots and the 
technicians to oversee it. So very similar to Mr. Walsh, we 
believe the system is safe. We are obviously concerned about a 
number of these issues, not the least of which is the FTI 
network. But as far as the systems go, we would like to work 
with the FAA. We have talked to the FAA about working with them 
in addressing those issues, and we will continue to do so.
    Senator Duckworth. I feel that it is the personnel, the air 
traffic controllers and the pilots, who are keeping us safe, 
despite systems and technology that keeps going further and 
further behind, and you are having to adjust more and more in 
order to keep the flying public safe. Would that be an accurate 
statement?
    Mr. Iacopelli. That is an accurate statement.
    Senator Duckworth. Thank you. I see you nodding, Captain 
Ambrosi. Would you like to comment on this? And how do pilots 
feel about these aging systems and systems that do not have 
plans to be updated?
    Mr. Ambrosi. Well, as my colleagues have said, the system 
is safe. We have never been happy with current safe. If we said 
in the 1980s that we are safe but we are safe enough, think of 
how many accidents we would be enduring today. So you can never 
say we are safe enough. We always need to push forward. As Dean 
said, we do a lot of work-arounds to make sure that the system 
is working as intended, and we keep the traffic, the passengers 
and cargo, moving.
    There needs to be that next step forward in safety where we 
get the technology that supports the human element--the air 
traffic controllers, the pilots. We absolutely need that next 
investment and that push forward to the next level for all of 
us, to continue the safe operation and make it safer.
    Senator Duckworth. Can you speak a little bit about how 
having the two pilots helped with the reaction time to some of 
the near misses, and why it was critical to have two pilots as 
opposed to one?
    Mr. Ambrosi. I mean, as we talked about the Austin 
incident. If there was only one pilot there, the first officer 
would not have identified the Southwest jet on the runway. 
Let's take the Alaska incident. While there is still an 
investigation underway, can you imagine having a door panel 
come off an airplane in flight, with only one person in the 
flight deck at that time to manage that situation.
    Let's take ground operations, surface operations, where you 
have two people, at least--some of our international operations 
more. Somebody needs to have their eyes outside at all times--
you are a pilot and you understand that--eyes outside while 
somebody else may be looking down at a chart, you know, how do 
we get from A to B. We do not work at the same airport every 
day, so we will go to an airport and it may be our first time 
there. Somebody's head is down and another pilot needs to be 
heads-up, looking out and seeing where we are going and 
monitoring the technology. You know, there is technology right 
around the corner that will give us more situational awareness 
on the ground. But if someone is looking at that situational 
awareness display to see where other airplanes are, that means 
somebody else needs to be looking out the window.
    Senator Duckworth. And in the Alaska Airline door plug 
incidents, one of the pilot's headsets was actually ripped off 
in the middle of that incident, from the wind gusts.
    Mr. Spero, if we are stuck relying on these unsustainable, 
critical air traffic control systems for many more years, how 
much harder will it be for your personnel to maintain them? And 
are you confident we will have enough parts and a workforce 
with enough experience to do so?
    Mr. Spero. Senator, thank you for the question. So I will 
start out by saying I like the way Captain Ambrosi talked about 
work-arounds. That is essentially what our folks do every day 
when they do not have spare parts. They find ways to make these 
systems work. They look for the spare parts. They have to dig 
into the FAA system to see if they can get them refurbished.
    It will become more difficult as times goes on. Moving 
forward, they have to have the ability and the training, and 
the staffing, as well. We have had incidents in various places 
where we have the equipment, we have the spare parts, yet we do 
not have the right people in the right place at the right time 
to restore systems. In Chicago earlier this year we had a 
ground stop because we did not have a trained technician 
available on shift to be able to exclude a software problem 
that effectively caused the controllers to not know where the 
aircraft were. Once that person came in, they fixed it in two 
minutes.
    But all of these things fall together. It is going to 
become more difficult as time goes on. We have to have the 
personnel. We have to have the parts. We have to have the 
training. It breaks our members' hearts to not be able to 
sustain the air traffic control system the way they want.
    Senator Duckworth. Thank you. I now recognize Ranking 
Member and incoming Chairman Cruz for his question line.
    Senator Cruz. Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to each 
of the witnesses for being here today on this very important 
topic. Mr. Walsh, let me start with you. The GAO report paints 
a grim picture of the FAA's sustainment plans for the air 
traffic system. More than 100 ATC systems, meaning radar, 
software, and hardware, were unsustainable or potentially 
unsustainable. With air travel expected to continue to grow, 
breakdowns and disruptions will only get worse.
    Mr. Walsh, your expertise is in procurement and 
modernization of legacy systems. How would you summarize the 
current state of air traffic control?
    Mr. Walsh. The easy summary is this is what happens if you 
take the ``if it isn't broke, don't fix it'' or perhaps if it's 
still somewhat working, don't fix it, just sustain it, over 
many, many years. So we are seeing the ramifications of that. 
We need to invest more money and more funds to get us back on 
track.
    Senator Cruz. How do you fix it? And I suspect the answer 
is not going to be just more money, because that answer has 
often failed to solve the problem.
    Mr. Walsh. You are correct. Throwing money at the problem 
won't fix it. You need adequate oversight. You need the right 
people in the right place. You need training. You need to have 
more of the good people that are keeping things running with 
bandaids and patches.
    So as I said in my opening statement, this is not a quick 
fix. There is no silver bullet. This is going to be the work of 
years and billions of dollars and thousands of people.
    Senator Cruz. All right. Mr. Scribner, in your testimony 
you mentioned that former FAA employees responded to your 
analysis of the GAO report. One stakeholder wrote that the 
ongoing reliability of existing surveillance technology like 
radar and ADS-B is in jeopardy, and the replacement for these 
existing technologies likely will not be deployed for 15 years.
    Why do you think FAA employees reacted so powerfully to the 
GAO report and your analysis, and what does it say about the 
FAA's acquisition strategy that it takes 15 years to deploy a 
new surveillance system?
    Mr. Scribner. Well, thank you for those questions, Senator 
Cruz. On the first, I think the reaction that Reason Foundation 
received from FAA stakeholders on the GAO report, it was not 
really anything new. A lot of these types of complaints we have 
heard for many years. I think they saw the thorough, and I 
think the excellent analysis, in the GAO report as an 
opportunity for Congress, for FAA, for Department of 
Transportation leadership to really take another close look at 
some of these issues that, again, are not new.
    When it comes to the delays that they are specifically 
complaining about, again, those are not new, and as documented 
by GAO quite thoroughly, this is quite common. I think 
especially stakeholders who have contractors who have worked 
abroad with air navigation service providers outside the 
country, and then they come back and work with ATO, can see the 
night-and-day situation when it comes to technology procurement 
and technology development. Some of the larger ANSP's globally 
are able to develop their own technology effectively in-house 
and then market it globally. That is something that the FAA 
used to specialize in developing technology in-house, but 
increasingly it is relying too much on outside contractors 
without adequate internal controls, and that is helping add to 
the delays and cost overruns for a variety of systems.
    Senator Cruz. My understanding is that the FAA has 
concurred with the majority of the GAO's recommendations, 
ranging from better reporting requirements and budget baseline 
practices to more regular reviews from the Joint Resources 
Council. Are those recommendations, in your judgment, 
sufficient, or should Congress consider more creative solutions 
to ensure that the U.S. air traffic control system is the best 
in the world?
    Mr. Scribner. As I said in my opening statement and as I 
detail in my written testimony, I think the problems run much 
deeper. It is structural. It is institutional design that is 
ultimately the root cause here. There is a reason why the vast 
majority of countries, of air navigation service providers 
globally, have moved toward the public utility model, the self-
supporting public utility model, to avoid some of the political 
problems that the FAA continues to experience. And we have seen 
a lot more success outside the U.S. in modernizing air traffic 
control technologies and practice than we have here. And again, 
I think it is institutional.
    Senator Cruz. And finally, Mr. Iacopelli, in your judgment, 
what is the biggest challenge outside of funding facing the 
FAA's air traffic control system?
    Mr. Iacopelli. Thank you, Senator. I would say, you know, 
we have recently--I will answer it this way--we have recently 
met with the COO of the ATO, and we talked about this 
equipment. Right now the way it is set up is, unfortunately, 
that there is a program office that goes out and looks for and 
acquires new technologies. And they take that equipment idea 
and bring it over to the ATO, and say, hey, we have acquired 
this. How do you want to use it?
    It does not make a whole lot of sense to us. We would 
rather, as the experts in running the air traffic control 
system, and the COO, Tim Arel, has agreed, we should get 
together, talk about what do we need, look at all of the 
systems that are out there, prioritize what we need, prioritize 
what would make it better, go through that, and move forward 
together and saying this is what the ATO needs. This is what 
air traffic control needs to maintain the safety of the NAS and 
improve and increase the efficiency of the NAS.
    Senator Cruz. So what you are saying makes a lot of sense. 
Is there anything that prevents the FAA from doing that now?
    Mr. Iacopelli. There is not, and it is a goal that we are 
going to start doing in the coming weeks and month, certainly 
in 2025, to move--and this is not a NATCA issue. It is an FAA 
issue--moving those pieces around to put the office that goes 
out and acquires technology for air traffic control under the 
ATO so that we are acquiring systems that make sense to air 
traffic control.
    Senator Cruz. Very good. Thank you.
    Senator Duckworth. Chairwoman Cantwell.
    Chair Cantwell. Thank you, Madam Chair. And following on 
Senator Cruz's line of questioning, because I think the issue 
here is we want to know what modernization takes, and we, 
obviously, have seen a lot of events. So the workforce training 
and hours also matter to us, and the experience of those air 
traffic controllers. If you listen to the Alaska flight audio, 
it was really critical that the communication between the pilot 
and the air traffic control system had the best you could 
possibly have in that situation.
    So Captain Ambrosi, let's just say you are the most active 
user of the air traffic controller system. So you said 
something in your statement, at the very end. I do not see it 
in your written statement. But you were referring to the FAA's 
tendency to do what is required within their budgeting but not 
come to the table with the right amount of technology 
investment. Am I making sense there, when you were talking 
about your resources? I do not know if you have that line and 
you could re-read it again.
    Mr. Ambrosi. If you like.
    Chair Cantwell. Yes, please.
    Mr. Ambrosi. Sure.
    Chair Cantwell. Because I thought it was a very telling 
statement about this dilemma.
    Mr. Ambrosi. Let's see. While Congress has provided the 
funding requested each year by the FAA during the annual 
appropriations process, there remains a significant shortfall 
in the numerous maintenance and modernization efforts. 
Resources have not kept up with inflation and effectively 
require the agency to prioritize sustainment to the detriment 
of modernization and infrastructure needs. The FAA must ask 
Congress for its true needs in order to sustain legacy systems, 
and make greater headway on NextGen and improve the NAS for all 
users.
    Chair Cantwell. Sustainment to the detriment of----
    Mr. Ambrosi. Modernization.
    Chair Cantwell.--modernization. OK. That is what I wanted 
you to focus on.
    So how do we deal with this dilemma? Because sustainment, 
you know, there was much debate between, I think, NATCA and 
others about what they thought the FAA should do. But if the 
FAA is sitting over here looking at sustainment instead of 
modernization, and modernization is absolutely capable, as the 
NTSB Chairwoman has said, on near-miss technology at the 
airports or these systems, how can we be better informed that 
that is no tradeoff when safety is concerned? Trading off 
sustainment for modernization is no tradeoff when safety is 
concerned. How do we better understand this?
    Mr. Ambrosi. Well, I will use this second to do a shout-out 
for Administrator Whitaker and thank him for his leadership. It 
will be sad to see him go. We obviously need an FAA 
Administrator that is going to be a leader, and we need long-
term, stable leadership at the top of the FAA to tackle this 
exact challenge. It was under his leadership that the FAA did 
request a significant increase in budget last year to address 
the facilities and equipment and improvement. But yes, they 
need to ask for what they need, absolutely.
    Chair Cantwell. OK. I am not sure I quite got the--here is 
how we are dealing with it. We, in the ACSAA, said, we want a 
Top 10 trend list. We want to know what the top safety trend 
concerns are, so that you are elevating that to us. We also, 
obviously, had the Chair testify here, and then Acting 
Administrator heard her, and a few days later ended up finally 
putting out an order on near-miss technology deployment for 
most large airports in the United States.
    But you are asking us to do our oversight role, but it is a 
lot of times way deep down that there is this disagreement. Now 
you have captured it--sustainability versus modernization. But 
what else can we do to crystalize that that modernization 
equals safety, and that Congress needs to understand where 
dollars go when they are prioritizing safety?
    Mr. Ambrosi. All I can answer is by working together and 
highlighting the problems that may be there. I believe that the 
people at the FAA want to modernize. They believe they have a 
path forward. It is just a case of saying, ``All right. We have 
got to really ask for what we need and go out and do it.''
    They have the data. There have been miraculous things over 
the last two decades----
    Chair Cantwell. Not--I have to interrupt--no, no, no, not 
if people are sitting there arguing over formula models for 
staffing. That is what we argued over. I see everybody 
nodding--formula models for staffing. That is what we argued 
over. Nobody argued over you need this technology modernization 
now, so that you can prevent X, Y, and Z from happening, or the 
risk of whatever that risk was, 30 percent change. I don't 
know. Some percent chance of that happening.
    Instead it came down to this is a disagreement over 
staffing models, and I do not really think that is what it was 
about. I think it was about sustainability of an organization 
versus modernization, just as you crystallized it.
    So anyway, I will stop there, Madam Chair. But I do think 
this is--we here are--I am really proud of what our Committee 
has done on oversight, and by that I mean the whole Committee 
has really taken a more aggressive role and position and input 
in really understanding these.
    But you guys all have to help us. You have to help us 
crystallize these opportunities in ways that Congress can fully 
see the tradeoffs without, you know, having to spend hours and 
hours and hours digesting the nuance here of staffing models. 
And I do not know, Mr. Iacopelli, if anybody else has any 
thoughts about that. But the way we have dealt with it so far 
is to use the NTSB, and to say you be the watchdog whistle here 
and tell us, and be louder about it.
    But look, these technology shifts are major in innovation 
and they are also critical to our competitiveness. So we want 
to get it right, and we want to understand it. So I don't know. 
If I could have one more minute, if anybody else has a comment 
on that.
    Mr. Iacopelli. So if I may, thank you, Senator. So it is an 
interesting perspective that the staffing question was 
sustainment versus modernization. On one side was we have a 
model that barely keeps the system alive and runs it as 
inexpensively as we can. On the other side you had the air 
traffic experts who looked at it and said, ``If we are building 
the air traffic control system for the future, and we want it 
to be safe, we need to do these things.''
    And when we talk about sustainment and modernization I 
think Mr. Walsh said it. There is not an easy fix. There is not 
an easy solution. And I would liken it to any--you know, when I 
talked about the buildings, when I talked about anything that 
we are trying to improve, if we are installing high-definition 
TVs in a building that is run on an electric generator, powered 
by gasoline, it is not sustainable.
    So we have to have the equipment that is out there work 
while we modernize, and modernization, in a lot of instances, 
is improving efficiency. And I know your focus, and I think it 
is an excellent question, what are the modernization tools that 
we need that focus on safety. We have to deal with efficiency 
and capacity, but we need to focus first and foremost on 
safety.
    And I think that in our conversations with the FAA, and I 
will also follow up with what Captain Ambrosi said, thank Mike 
Whitaker for his leadership because he has been, much as I 
heard from all of you say, hey, he has been focused on safety. 
It has been an important part of his charge. And we have worked 
together to try to identify those systems we need to make the 
system safe, but we have to figure out a way to do both, 
because we cannot let go of the things we have until we have 
the replacement, and those things take time.
    But the safety issues in the modernization do need to be 
separated out from the capacity and efficiency issues.
    Chair Cantwell. Well, I see many of my colleagues here who 
probably want to jump in on these things. But I would say this 
Committee has the capacity. I think it has demonstrated it has 
the capacity. So I think we just have to get this debate 
elevated. It was not a staffing model discussion. It was about 
what do you need to do. And again, Captain Ambrosi being the 
end user of all of this, you know, I am sure they were the 
loudest in saying this is what we need, because they are the 
ones every day who have to get up there and rely on this.
    Mr. Ambrosi. And with your leadership and the leadership of 
this Committee saying to them, ``Is this really what you need? 
Does this budget have what you need to modernize?'' and put 
them on the spot. So I thank this Committee----
    Chair Cantwell. Well, I think air traffic controllers were 
saying yes, but a larger FAA discussion was saying no, and then 
we are in the middle, trying to digest and help. But anyway, we 
got what we needed, which was important, but more to do. More 
to do because technology and modernization are going to 
continue.
    Again, thank you, Chair Duckworth, for this very important 
hearing, and thank you for your leadership on aviation, in 
general.
    Senator Duckworth. Senator Rosen very patiently joining us 
remotely.

                STATEMENT OF HON. JACKY ROSEN, 
                    U.S. SENATOR FROM NEVADA

    Senator Rosen. Thank you, Chair Duckworth. I appreciate you 
and Ranking Member Moran. Today's hearing is critically 
important to all of us, and I appreciate all the witnesses for 
being here and for your work.
    You know, safe and efficient travel, I do not have to tell 
you. I was Chair of the Tourism, Trade, and Export Promotion 
Subcommittee on Commerce, and safe and efficient travel is key 
to Nevada's tourism economy, and it begins with our Nation's 
air traffic controllers. And we do have the safest skies in the 
world.
    And I want to build a little bit on what Senator Cantwell 
is talking about with staffing issues and a lot of these 
systemic issues that we have with modernization, because today 
air traffic controllers are working longer hours, longer than 
ever before, fewer breaks, for more consecutive days. And we do 
agree, every one of us, this is not sustainable, and it must be 
addressed.
    In May, the FAA sent a letter on the controller shortage 
that argued its own staffing targets would produce the same 
hiring levels for the next 3 years, as what the recommended 
targets from the Collaborative Resource Working Group.
    So Mr. Iacopelli, has the FAA sufficiently taken into 
consideration the Collaborative Resource Working Group's 
staffing model, which NAFDA helped inform, when crafting its 
own workforce plan? Because we cannot burn out the workforce we 
have, and we have to grow folks faster than we are doing.
    Mr. Iacopelli. Thank you, Senator. Those are all true and 
very accurate points. The men and women, the professionals that 
we represent, are working longer, and they are working harder, 
and they are handling more aircraft than they have, likely in 
most of their careers because we do have a relative new 
turnover in our workforce.
    As far as the CRWG goes, the Collaborative Resource Work 
Group, the ATO, the Air Traffic Organization, has fully 
embraced it. They were partnered with NATCA in the creation of 
those certified professional staffing targets, because we 
partnered and worked through it collaboratively with the ATO.
    When you get to the FAA--and again, we do thank Mike 
Whitaker for his service and his commitment to safety--but it 
has been a challenge convincing the FAA as a whole that the 
CRWG numbers are the correct number that we need to adequately 
and safely staff the air traffic control facilities in the 
country, that allow them to take sufficient breaks, that allow 
us to participate in the modernization efforts and moving the 
air traffic control system into the future.
    We are expecting that part of the FAA Reauthorization Act 
of 2024--again, thank you all for passing that--requires a 
study of the two different models. In the meantime----
    Senator Rosen. We need more than a study. We need to take 
some action. I think we have studied an awful lot, and 
somebody's safety is on the line.
    I have just a little over a minute. I will take some more 
of your answer off the record because I just want to pair this 
with modernizing our aging technology, as it is going to 
alleviate some of the strain on the air traffic controllers 
because they are working oftentimes with older equipment or 
things that are not as technically good as they could be. And 
it also will help expedite and increase air traffic controller 
graduation rates.
    And one of these pieces of technology that will help us, 
help the air traffic controllers and their workload are the 
Terminal Flight Data Manager and the FAA's Surface Safety 
Portfolio. So I am going to ask you--like I said, I just have 
about a minute left--what impact, Mr. Iacopelli, you think the 
TFDM or Surface Safety Portfolio systems had on airports that 
have installed this equipment, particularly when it comes to 
controllers' morale and retention. You know, workers, we 
partner with technology to be better at our job, so it is 
really important, right, it's a partnership between humans and 
technology that gives us a safe space, a safe airspace in this 
regard.
    Mr. Iacopelli. Well, thank you again, Senator. So we did 
deploy the Surface Awareness Initiative, and I know several 
times Austin was brought up. That was the first location that 
we worked with the FAA, and we collaboratively developed this 
new tool that, again, we call it the Surface Awareness 
Initiative. And we deployed it at Austin first, and we put it 
in seven other locations.
    It is overwhelmingly, positively received. In fact, the 
leadership of the FAA, including Administrator Whitaker, from 
the ATO and NATCA, went to Austin, talked to the folks there, 
and they are very appreciative, and it has made a difference. 
And we are continuing to try--well, not try, we are continuing 
with our deployment schedule to get that out. It is in eight 
facilities now. We are going to another nine facilities in the 
coming months. So it has made a difference.
    And this is an interesting point between those things that 
are modernization that are for safety and those things that are 
modernization for capacity. The TFDM is more a capacity tool. 
All things that we modernize have some effect on safety. But 
the Surface Awareness Initiative is a direct tool that directly 
affects safety.
    Senator Rosen. And if it is a very short answer, how can we 
help you speed up the deployment of some of these tools that we 
know help, because we need to speed up the deployment. It is 
going to really help us all across this Nation. If you want 
just like a 10-second answer, I could take it off the record, 
but what do you need to help speed up your deployment schedule?
    Mr. Iacopelli. What we need to do is be adequately funded 
so that the FAA does not have to choose between deploying this 
and something else and make this a prioritization issue.
    Senator Rosen. Thank you very much, and I yield back, Madam 
Chair.
    Senator Duckworth. Senator Klobuchar.

               STATEMENT OF HON. AMY KLOBUCHAR, 
                  U.S. SENATOR FROM MINNESOTA

    Senator Klobuchar. Thank you. Thank you very much, Madam 
Chair. Mr. Walsh, it is critical, as you have talked about in 
this hearing, that our safety and security, for our safety and 
security that we upgrade our aviation system. The NOTAM system 
outage, way back, as you know, caused a delay, major delay, and 
in July the FAA confirmed that there is now a backup system in 
place, but there is still more work to do.
    Could you talk about the challenges that airports and air 
traffic controllers face when trying to transition away from 
their old legacy systems?
    Mr. Walsh. So I think the National Airspace System Safety 
Review Team did a great job in their recent report on the 
topic, and I would highlight some of the things that they said. 
In particular, it is very difficult right now to turn off the 
legacy systems once you have built the new system that is 
intended to replace it. We have a lot of users. In particular, 
if you read between the lines, the military, that does not 
easily transition over to newer technology, and FAA is then 
left holding the bag with two systems rather than one. And then 
they have to sustain both of those systems rather than focusing 
entirely on their new system, which again, takes up an 
increasingly large piece of the not growing pie.
    So I think as our air traffic controllers, our pilots, and 
our technicians work with these older systems it makes their 
life harder, and again, it makes it more upon them to catch 
things when they go wrong or when these systems have outages.
    Senator Klobuchar. OK. Very good. Thank you.
    Mr. Iacopelli, thank you for being here. As you know, we 
have a shortage of air traffic controllers. We have a major hub 
in Minnesota. I know how important the air traffic controllers' 
work is, and we have seen flight disruptions and the like. The 
bill that we passed back in May, with Senator Cantwell's 
leadership, the FAA Air Traffic Controller's Hiring Act, 
focused on boosting FAA training capacity.
    Do you believe that we should focus on training and hiring? 
How is it going? What is the latest?
    Mr. Iacopelli. Well, thank you for the question, Senator, 
and absolutely, yes, we need to continue to focus on hiring. We 
know that the FAA has just met their hiring goal for the Fiscal 
Year, so we are in a new Fiscal Year. And based on the FAA 
Reauthorization Act that they are required to do max hiring. 
And we have partnered with the FAA and our Public Affairs 
Department to go out and promote that.
    If you ever scroll through Facebook you see hundreds of air 
traffic controllers promoting this profession and how great it 
is and how much they want people to get in it, for two reasons. 
One, it is a great profession, and two, we need more air 
traffic controllers.
    We do need to focus on the training. We have recently 
agreed to some new initiatives within the FAA to focus on 
training, increase the success rate, the TSS provision in the 
FAA Reauthorization Act, the training simulator. Again, it is a 
funding issue. It has been authorized. We need the 
appropriations part, and hopefully the FAA is going to ask for 
the right amount of money so, again, we are not choosing 
between which thing is more important. We need all of it.
    Senator Klobuchar. Right. You know, the air traffic control 
tower up in Duluth is 70 years old, in northern Minnesota. The 
weather is rather harsh there. We also have an incredible Guard 
base there, and Cirrus is right near there. So there is a lot 
of it, a great synergy of air travel and air manufacturing. It 
is one of the three oldest towers in the country. It does not 
make the line-of-sight requirements. It is in need of 
significant repairs. It actually gets under water somehow, even 
though it is on a hill, quite a bit. We got some funding for it 
but not enough to get it going.
    So is the biggest obstacle here infrastructure, and just 
talk about the rural communities. And this is not even that 
rural, right. It is quite a big city, Duluth, Minnesota, where 
Bob Dylan came from. The biopic is coming out, so I want to get 
it on everyone's mind.
    Mr. Iacopelli. We have been working, using the Bipartisan 
Infrastructure Law as the base, to go through and look at a lot 
of our facilities. And, I mean, we have our folks sending us 
pictures of flooded basements, mold, decay. When I mentioned 
plumbing, just upgrading the plumbing in the facility, so that 
the restrooms and the water work, so that our folks who are air 
traffic controllers can do that.
    I know up in Alaska they have space heaters. We have gone 
through where the air conditioning this past summer in several 
locations around the country just stopped working. And we have 
had our folks in the elevators stopped and it was 90-plus 
degrees in the tower, and they had to go to remote sites.
    So all of those little things, in those rural communities, 
where you do not hear about it, it does not necessarily make 
the news. We certainly hear about it. I am assuming you hear 
about it from your constituents.
    So it is an enormous task to go out and upgrade the entire 
infrastructure of the national airspace system. And I think Mr. 
Walsh said it--it is not a quick fix. It is not something that 
happened over the past 3 years. It is something that has been 
building for 50 years of, if it's not broke--and I forget how 
you said it--but if it's not broke, we don't need to fix it. If 
it is working, that is good. Let's keep going.
    And I do not want to take up too much time, but we have 
radar sites right now that the FAA is going around trying to 
decommission because they do not have the means by which they 
can maintain it. That is not improving safety. That is simply a 
matter of taking down a radar site so you can use those parts 
someplace else, because they do not have the means by which to 
maintain those radar sites, and that is another big issue we 
are going through.
    Senator Klobuchar. OK. Very good. Anything else, Captain, 
that you would like to add?
    Mr. Ambrosi. I think Dean covered it pretty well there. But 
it is an all-of-the-above strategy. We need to keep it working 
so we can keep moving passengers and cargo. But it is time to 
make that next leap and finally put the people, resources, the 
money in place to move our--it is the safest aviation system in 
the world, but we need to keep it that way and move it forward. 
So I would agree with everything he said.
    Senator Klobuchar. OK. Thank you. I will send questions in 
writing. There are many things going on today around here, so 
thank you. Thanks.
    Senator Duckworth. Thank you. I hear they are tough in 
Alaska about those space heaters there, Senator Sullivan.

                STATEMENT OF HON. DAN SULLIVAN, 
                    U.S. SENATOR FROM ALASKA

    Senator Sullivan. Well, thank you, Madam Chair, and it is 
always good to follow my friend from Minnesota, who has similar 
issues, cold, rural----
    Senator Klobuchar. Space heaters.
    Senator Sullivan.--space heaters needing upgrades. We do 
not have--was it Bob Dylan? We do not have him, but we have a 
lot of other famous people.
    So I want to thank the Chair for holding this really 
important hearing, and Mr. Iacopelli, I want to begin with you, 
first doing a shout-out to all the air traffic controllers 
across the country, in Alaska in particular. These are really 
heroes, in my view. They keep us safe. We have a lot of 
aviation challenges in Alaska. You guys do such a great job. I 
am a giant fan of your workers and members.
    You know, even the whole issue, a lot of Americans do not 
know if you are flying to Asia, you know, even from Chicago or 
somewhere, you come over the Alaska airspace. Our air traffic 
control kind of gets them safely to Tokyo or Seoul. So I really 
just want to do a great shout-out to them.
    And I want talk to you. You know, as we were developing the 
FAA Reauth I supported the Air Traffic Control Hiring Act to 
require the FAA to set a minimum of hiring targets for new air 
traffic controllers. We got a lot of this in the bill, but is 
there more Congress can be doing on this really important 
issue?
    Mr. Iacopelli. Well, thank you, Senator, and I appreciate 
the compliment to our brothers and sisters who work up in 
Alaska.
    You know, the Reauthorization Act and the requirement to 
conduct max hiring, the success of that depends on having it 
sufficiently funded. So we are hopeful that the FAA requests 
the money that they need to continue the hiring. We are working 
with the FAA, and I am sure you are aware, sir, that we have 
expanded the enhanced CTI program, the College Training 
Initiative. So we are working on that.
    We are working on a number of initiatives in-house, if you 
will, to enhance and improve the training, to enhance and 
improve the success rate, most importantly, of that training. 
Because any time we take someone, we know if we hire 2,000 
people, we are not getting 2,000 through our training course 
out in Oklahoma. Then once they hit the field, again, there is 
more attrition.
    But to maintain that focus and not lose sight of the 
importance, and again, we have all Priority 1A things here. 
Everything is a 1, 1, 1 priority. But to continue to focus and 
ensure we have the funding to stay with it. Because it is not a 
one-year task. It is a multiyear, long-term commitment.
    Senator Sullivan. Well, thank you on that, and I again, we 
will continue to stay very focused on this Committee on those 
issues.
    Captain Ambrosi, it is good to see you again, sir, and I 
want to do a shout-out to your members too. They are great 
Americans. A lot of them live in Alaska. We have more pilots 
per capita than any state in the country, as you probably know, 
more veterans per capita too--I know our Chair cares a lot 
about that--per capita.
    But we also have challenges with regard to having enough 
pilots, particularly for regional airlines, because they get 
recruited up to the major airlines so quickly. So one of the 
things that I worked on with you and others, that had 
bipartisan support, and both labor union support and industry 
support, was focusing on education for our pilots. And one 
thing that just kind of--I just do not understand why it still 
exists--that we have this kind of unequal treatment for, loan 
treatment between traditional college students and students 
seeking a professional airline pilot, who shoulder very costly 
loans for training.
    So I am trying to fix that. As you know, we had a bill that 
unfortunately did not make it in the FAA Reauth that I thought 
was kind of a no-brainer to get in there, to help our pilot 
situation. Can you explain the barriers a prospective pilot 
faces for assessing flight education and training and what you 
think Congress should be doing to right-size the existing 
programs?
    And oh, by the way, on Federal loan payback, you know, the 
pilots who go through this kind of training, they get Federal 
loans. They will have a great record of paying back those 
loans, unlike some of the others who do not, because they will 
go get an aviation job or a pilot job, and those are good-
paying jobs.
    So what more can we do to level that playing field?
    Mr. Ambrosi. Senator, good to see you. Thank you again, as 
you did with the shout-out for our members. They work hard 
every day.
    Senator Sullivan. Yes, we have a lot in Alaska, as you 
know.
    Mr. Ambrosi. Keep our people safe. Thank you for your 
leadership on this issue. As I may have said in former 
testimony that I would not be able to be a pilot today with 
what it costs.
    Senator Sullivan. Yes.
    Mr. Ambrosi. It has gotten out of hand. It is a wonderful 
profession. I am proud to be an airline pilot. And we need to 
do more to open the doors.
    We have a robust pipeline. The schools are full. But there 
are the best and brightest still out there that do not have the 
resources that enable them to do this.
    Senator Sullivan. Yes. Do you think that limits the number 
of pilots in America, just because it is so expensive?
    Mr. Ambrosi. It certainly limits--it takes away the ability 
for a lot of people that would like to get into this 
profession, if they do not have the ability to get the 
resources, the Federal loans, that could help. It does not make 
sense that if you can get those loans for other professions, 
that we cannot do it for ours.
    Senator Sullivan. To get a philosophy degree, you can get a 
Federal loan, but pilot training, you cannot. That seems 
backward.
    Mr. Ambrosi. Yes. Well again, thank you for your leadership 
on it. I believe that opening the doors of opportunity for all 
those that would like to get into this profession, it is an 
important step in the right direction.
    Senator Sullivan. Great. And Madam Chair, I want to work 
with you on that too. I know you care a lot about this issue.
    I see my time has expired, so I will submit additional 
questions for the record. But the one that I am going to 
submit, just to make a very quick comment on, is this idea of 
air traffic control privatization. I know we have differing 
views on the panel, but I am going to submit that.
    I do not support that. I think that the small, rural 
airports, that my state has an enormous number of, they are 
going to kind of lose out on any kind of, you know, 
privatization that would be run by a private entity. I think in 
this case the government is best equipped to make sure smaller 
airports, smaller populations, who need infrastructure, do not 
get missed out. So I will submit that for the record, Madam 
Chair. I appreciate the hearing. Thanks again.
    Senator Duckworth. Without objection. Senator Welch.

                STATEMENT OF HON. PETER WELCH, 
                   U.S. SENATOR FROM VERMONT

    Senator Welch. Thank you very much, Madam Chair, and I 
share the concern about small airports that Senator Sullivan 
just mentioned.
    I want to start by thanking Mr. Whitaker. He had a short 
time but a big impact. And it is extraordinary to hear from 
everyone, from Senator Cruz to folks who are on the panel 
paying tribute to the excellent job he did as the FAA 
Administrator. And I am very sorry to lose him. We are proud of 
him, he is a Vermonter, but primarily because of the 
extraordinary job that he did in creating confidence among all 
of the folks who are keeping our skies safe.
    I have a few questions, Mr. Iacopelli, I want to ask you. 
On these shortages that we are trying to deal with, I know the 
FAA is really hard at work at implementing changes to deal with 
the air traffic controller shortage. And it takes time, 
especially 3,000 ATC staffers overnight cannot be hired.
    But the ongoing shortage is really hurting us in 
Burlington, Vermont, at the Leahy International Airport in 
Burlington, and it has resulted--we understand in the slot 
waivers for the New York area airports, that has been really 
detrimental to us but also to other small airports around the 
country.
    Last year, JetBlue terminated service routes from Leahy 
Burlington International Airport to JFK. That is a real problem 
for us. We had a lot of folks that wanted to come from JFK to 
Burlington and from Burlington to JFK.
    So I want to just ask, what is your confidence about the 
capacity for swift implementation of the ATC workforce 
provisions included in the FAA Reauthorization Act, and will 
the FAA be able to lift the New York City slot waivers by the 
end of the waiver period, which is slated for October 2025?
    Mr. Iacopelli. Thank you, Senator. To start with the slot 
question, we do not know. I do not know that they will be able 
to do that. I do not know if it is based solely on staffing or 
through some commitment with the airlines. NATCA is not 
involved in the----
    Senator Welch. But we are sort of in it now. Do you have 
any assessment of the progress that is being made that gives 
you any capacity to be confident that the target will be met?
    Mr. Iacopelli. So the training and hiring of air traffic 
controllers is an ongoing effort. It is going to take years of 
sustained focus to ensure that we continue to hire. Now, the 
FAA Reauthorization bill requires max hiring for 5 years, 
because that is the length of the bill. And honestly, if it was 
a 10-year bill it would have to be 10 years. Because as we 
hire, and we lose through attrition, as we hire we lose, for 
retirement and those who are unsuccessful.
    But to your question, Senator, we are focused along with 
the ATO and the FAA in ensuring that those who do get hired 
receive the best quality training we can, to ensure the most 
success that we can, to address those issues that you are 
talking about.
    Senator Welch. Well, I will just implore you to stay on it, 
because you were not able, obviously, and I respect that, to 
give us confidence that those slot waivers will be dealt with 
so that we can get service back to New York City. So it is 
really, really important to us in Vermont.
    There is also, you know, with the smaller airports, the 
need for upgrades of equipment and facilities. At our airport 
in Burlington the tower was built in the 1980s, and it is 
considered to be relatively new for a small airport. But we 
have had significant expansions at the airport, and at the 
tower you cannot see the entire airport. We have got $17.8 
billion in the FAA Reauthorization Act to fund the 
modernization of key technologies.
    My question to you is, as we continue to implement the FAA 
Reauthorization Act, how can the FAA better coordinate with 
smaller regional airports to ensure its technology and 
facilities are being consistently maintained and upgraded?
    Mr. Iacopelli. Well, thank you for that, Senator. I think 
the best way for us to do it is continuing to stay involved 
with the FAA and having our experts work with the FAA, whether 
it be in the ATO or any other line of business that oversees 
the deployment of new technologies.
    We do have a good number of professionals out there working 
with the FAA now, and their counterparts who are either in the 
engineering or the other modernization departments. And we do 
make sure we are focused on where does it need to be deployed 
and are we getting it to where it needs to be, as quickly as we 
can. But there are limitations to how much we can get 
accomplished, as was previously discussed.
    Senator Welch. OK. Thank you. I yield back.
    Senator Duckworth. Thank you to our witnesses for your 
participation today. They have called a vote so we are going to 
end the hearing.
    The hearing record will remain open until January 13, 2025. 
Any Senators that would like to submit questions for the record 
should do so by December 20, 2024. I again thank the panel for 
being here. I thought this was a very good discussion. We ask 
that responses be returned to the Committee by January 13.
    And that concludes today's hearing. Thank you.
    [Whereupon, at 11:56 a.m., the hearing was adjourned.]

                            A P P E N D I X

    Response to Written Questions Submitted by Hon. Jerry Moran to 
                              Kevin Walsh
1. FAA Budgetary Processes
    Over the course of the last decade, Congress has consistently 
provided funding in excess of that requested by the FAA to support its 
modernization and sustainment needs, particularly for legacy systems. 
The GAO report implies this level of investment is inadequate to 
support the safety and capacity of the airspace.

   What recommendations do you have that would enable the level 
        of investment that is more in line with the needs and short 
        comings identified in your report?
    Answer. We previously reported that the amount Congress has 
invested in NextGen generally aligned with the amounts in the 
President's budget request.\1\ For example, as reflected in the Federal 
Aviation Administration's (FAA) congressional budget justifications for 
Fiscal Year 2012 through 2023, FAA's budget requests and actual budget 
for NextGen--including system deployment--remained relatively constant 
at about $1 billion annually. We did not assess FAA's budget requests 
in relation to NextGen priorities.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \1\ GAO, Air Traffic Control Modernization: Program Management 
Improvements Could Help FAA Address NextGen Delays and Challenges, GAO-
24-105254 (Washington, D.C.: Nov. 9, 2023).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Nonetheless, representatives from an association representing air 
traffic controllers told us that FAA's budget requests for implementing 
NextGen have not kept up with the growing costs of materials and labor 
over time. We also reported that FAA has not updated its full NextGen 
life cycle cost estimate since 2017. Updating this estimate could help 
better inform and justify budget requests. Accordingly, we recommended 
that FAA develop an updated life cycle cost estimate for NextGen, 
measure FAA's performance against it, and create a schedule for 
updating the life cycle cost estimate regularly.
    Finally, we recently initiated a new audit looking at, among other 
things, the reliability of FAA cost and schedule estimation practices 
for air traffic control (ATC) system modernization investments. This 
new audit, coupled with our prior recommendation, may help to improve 
the accuracy, reliability, and justification of the budget requests 
submitted by FAA.

   Are there added revenues, such as the Airport and Airway 
        Trust Fund, for Congress to explore for FAA to better leverage 
        investment in its infrastructure modernization programs?
    Answer. FAA's funding for these investments generally comes from 
the Facilities and Equipment account. We have not done work on other 
possible revenue sources.
2. DOD Systems
    The GAO report excluded 43 systems that were classified as the 
responsibility of the Department of Defense or building facilities.

   Can you speak at all to the sustainability of those DOD 
        systems? Are there lessons to be learned in how those systems 
        are sustained?
    Answer. We have not done work on how the 43 systems and building 
facilities are sustained. Of the 43, 16 were classified as systems 
supporting national defense, and the remaining 27 were classified as 
building facilities. FAA officials rated each of the 16 national 
defense systems by their sustainability and criticality. The table 
below is a summary of the 16 systems based on FAA's 2023 operational 
risk assessment.\2\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \2\ These numbers were derived from the 2023 National Airspace 
System operational risk assessment. FAA intended to perform the 
assessment annually.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                 Sustainability rating
        Systems by Operational Impact         --------------------------
                                                Critical   Moderate  Low
------------------------------------------------------------------------
A: Unsustainable due to shortages in spares            0          0    0
 and shortfalls in funding
B: Unsustainable due to shortfalls in funding          0          0    0
 or capability
C: Potentially unsustainable due to possible          15          0    1
 shortfalls in funding or capability
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total                                                 15          0    1
------------------------------------------------------------------------

    One of the four critical systems for which FAA does not have an 
associated modernization investment underway is used by the Departments 
of Defense and Homeland Security, as well as FAA.

   How would you suggest these three agencies initiate 
        discussions regarding procurement of a replacement system?
    Answer. While we have not done work on how these three agencies 
might initiate discussions for the procurement of a replacement 
system,\3\ we have developed best practices to be used by Federal 
agencies to enhance Federal interagency collaboration.\4\ Specifically, 
in May 2023 we issued a report that highlights eight leading 
collaboration practices, including bridging organizational cultures, 
identifying and sustaining leadership, clarifying roles and 
responsibilities, and developing written guidance and agreements.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \3\ We omitted the official name of the system due to sensitivity 
concerns. We used a generic designation instead.
    \4\ GAO, Government Performance Management: Leading Practices to 
Enhance Interagency Collaboration and Address Crosscutting Challenges, 
GAO-23-105520 (Washington, D.C.: May 24, 2023).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    In addition, in March 2024 FAA provided us a few additional details 
on the system that is used by FAA and the Departments of Defense and 
Homeland Security. Specifically, FAA officials stated that the three 
agencies intend to modernize the system, but no program is currently 
underway. In March 2024, FAA officials stated that the Office of the 
Secretary of Defense was working on an analysis of alternatives for a 
new replacement investment, and that analysis was nearing completion. 
FAA officials also stated that the National Airspace System (NAS) 
Defense Program plans to begin tri-agency discussions to procure a 
replacement system that meets the modern requirements of all three 
agencies. Lastly, the officials stated that while it is unlikely that 
they will be able to start the program in 2025, once they are able to 
start, it will take at least nine years before the legacy system is 
decommissioned.
    Following the interagency collaboration best practices from our May 
2023 report could be helpful to FAA, and the Departments of Defense and 
Homeland Security in ensuring effective collaboration as they embark on 
their future work.
3. Limiting Factors
    Pages 37 and 38 of the report call attention to the limitations of 
FAA's acquisition management oversight council, stating ``[it] is not 
ensuring that the investments deliver functionality in manageable 
segments to address the extended periods of time it takes FAA to 
develop and deploy new systems.''

   Has your investigation into these aging systems offered any 
        insight into why FAA is less agile in its procurement and 
        development of new systems than other Federal agencies--like 
        DOD?
    Answer. While we did not perform an in-depth analysis of whether 
FAA is less agile in its procurement and development than other Federal 
agencies, in April 2024, we asked about reasons for FAA's lack of 
agility. FAA officials did not give specific reasons for its lack of 
agility but stated that in some instances it is not appropriate to 
segment a system development effort. Specifically, officials stated 
that when a system is providing functionality that is only useful when 
it is deployed throughout the NAS, it is not appropriate for the system 
to be segmented. The officials highlighted two examples of these types 
of systems: the En Route Automation Modernization (ERAM) system and the 
Standard Terminal Automation Replacement System (STARS). The officials 
stated that they could not realistically provide only a portion of the 
full functionality to safely separate aircraft in the en route or 
terminal airspace; nor could the FAA provide that functionality to half 
of the country when the systems need to be able to communicate with 
each other.
    In April 2024, FAA officials acknowledged that they should do more 
to identify opportunities to segment investments and deliver 
functionality to users more rapidly across all ATC system modernization 
investments. Specifically, in March 2024 the agency established a 
working group to develop guidance on segmenting investments, where 
feasible. Officials noted that the working group will be addressing the 
types of investments that should apply this strategy. FAA anticipates 
the working group will result in improved guidance and training 
opportunities for segmentation. However, FAA officials did not provide 
specific time frames for developing and implementing this guidance. 
Accordingly, we recommended that FAA establish a time frame for 
developing and implementing guidance that the Joint Resources Council 
ensures that ATC system modernization investments are organized as 
manageable segments.
4. Modernization Difficulties
    The report shows a clear picture of the pressing needs of 
modernization.

   What are the primary difficulties the FAA has found to 
        execute the modernization programs?
    Answer. In our September 2024 report, we identified individual 
reasons why specific investments were delayed, but these reasons varied 
by investment.\5\ In addition, we reported that segmenting large 
complex system development and implementation efforts into smaller and 
more manageable increments has the potential to reduce risk and deliver 
capabilities more quickly. We also highlighted that the Office of 
Management and Budget requires agencies to deliver functionality to 
users at least every 6 months.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \5\ GAO, Air Traffic Control: FAA Actions Are Urgently Needed to 
Modernize Aging Systems, GAO-24-107001 (Washington, D.C.: Sept. 23, 
2024).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    However, we found that FAA's acquisition oversight body--the Joint 
Resources Council--does not ensure that investments deliver 
functionality in manageable segments. For example, while the Enterprise 
Information Display System (E-IDS) was initiated 8 years ago, it has 
not delivered any functionality to users. Similarly, the NextGen 
Weather Processor (NWP) system was initiated 14 years ago and had yet 
to deliver any functionality to users.
    As a result, we concluded that this lack of segmentation, at least 
partially, contributes to the extended development time frames. 
Accordingly, we recommended that FAA establish a time frame for 
developing and implementing guidance that the Joint Resources Council 
ensures that ATC system modernization investments are organized as 
manageable segments.
    In November 2023 we reported that closer adherence to five program 
management practices could better position the agency's ongoing effort 
to modernize air traffic management.\6\ Collectively, the gaps in 
program management mean FAA has less assurance that it has taken steps 
to avoid major course corrections in the future, contributing to 
continued delays in deployment. We made four recommendations to improve 
FAA program management operations.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \6\ GAO-24-105254.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    In addition to these program management challenges, FAA and 
stakeholders cited varying levels of aircraft equipage, the changing 
national airspace, and unanticipated events as challenges to 
implementing its modernization efforts. More specifically, achieving 
the level of equipage on aircraft needed to ensure that operators can 
realize NextGen benefits has continued to be a barrier. While 
foundational systems--such as ERAM and STARS--do not require aircraft 
operators to install avionics, other NextGen systems do, and aircraft 
operators have achieved different levels of aircraft equipage. Also, 
cybersecurity risks posed by a more connected NAS, integration of new 
entrants into the NAS (such as drones and commercial spacecraft), and 
potential spectrum interference were cited as additional challenges. 
Lastly, unanticipated events, such as the COVID-19 pandemic, have 
affected modernization timelines. Although the COVID-19 public health 
emergency ended in May 2023, FAA was continuing to modify plans and 
schedules resulting from restricted access to facilities, testing 
delays, and difficulties obtaining system components, as of November 
2023.
    Finally, we recently initiated a new audit, which will assess the 
extent to which FAA follows leading practices for planning, selecting, 
managing, and evaluating ATC modernization investments. We will also 
assess the reliability of FAA's cost and schedule estimation practices 
of ATC system modernization investments. This new audit is intended to 
provide additional insights into the execution of FAA's ATC 
modernization investment practices.
5. Federal Contract Tower Program
    Kansas is home to the Kansas City Air Traffic Control Center and 
eight (8) participants in the FAA's Federal Contract Tower program.

   Can you provide the Subcommittee your perspective of the FAA 
        Contract Tower program, which continues to provide critical ATC 
        safety benefits to the 264 airports in the program?
    Answer. We have not done work on this topic.
6. NOTAM Improvement Act
    Following the January 2023 Notice to Air Missions (NOTAM) outage, I 
was pleased to introduce with my colleagues, Sens. Klobuchar and 
Capito, a bill to require FAA establish a task force to strengthen the 
resiliency and cybersecurity of the NOTAM system.
    The bill was signed into law in 2023, and the task force's report 
is expected early next year.

   Are there particular themes you expect to find in the 
        report?
    Answer. We have not examined the NOTAM outage or the work of the 
taskforce, which would be needed to comment on this topic.
   How do you anticipate the findings and recommendations from 
        this report to complement GAO's findings to help bolster safety 
        of the NAS ecosystem?
    While we cannot speculate on the taskforce's future report, it will 
be important for FAA to closely review their findings and 
recommendations and work to implement ours and others' recommendations 
aimed at strengthening the safety of the NAS.
                                 ______
                                 
    Response to Written Questions Submitted by Hon. Dan Sullivan to 
                              Kevin Walsh
    With the persistent challenges faced by Congress and the FAA to 
budget for air traffic control modernization, there have periodically 
been suggestions to spin off the air traffic control systems into a 
private or quasi-private entity.
    I have deep reservations about any proposal to transfer the FAA's 
air traffic facilities to a quasi-private corporation and allow it, 
rather than Congress, to make decisions on where funding should be 
spent and how much tax general aviators should pay. This threatens to 
leave rural communities largely ignored.
    The 582 airports out of 600 in Alaska that do not have air traffic 
control would receive little if any funding for upgrades and new 
technology, and it is unclear what would happen to the 400 navigation 
aids that Alaskans depend on. The largest hubs would receive the lion's 
share of the funding leaving states like Alaska with no recourse.

    Question 1. Do you agree that congress is in the best position to 
allocate resources between the few dozen airports serving larger cities 
and the thousands of general aviation airports and facilities serving 
rural America?
    Answer. Congress has the authority to determine how to allocate 
resources or whether to separate ATC operations from FAA. In October 
2016, we identified key transition issues associated with such a 
change, including changes in user fees and their impacts on certain 
users such as general aviation.\7\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \7\ GAO, Air Traffic Control: Experts' and Stakeholders' Views on 
Key Issues to Consider in a Potential Restructuring, GAO-17-131 
(Washington, D.C.: Oct. 13, 2016).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Similarly, I have concerns over a non-public entity making 
decisions regarding the allocation of airspace. In Anchorage for 
example, airspace is shared among Ted Stevens International, Merrill 
Field, one of the largest general aviation airports in the country, 
Lake Hood, the world's largest floatplane airport, and major military 
airfields which conduct air training activities.
    With more licensed pilots per capita than any state in the union we 
have (9,428 active pilots), we have an extremely active General 
Aviation community in Alaska. Allocating air space among these diverse 
users should be determined by a government entity, not a private 
organization.

    Question 2. Do you agree that airspace should be available to all 
users, including those serving small towns and villages as well as 
individuals as it is currently?
    Answer. FAA regulations currently identify various classes of 
airspace and requirements for those classes, which are, in part, based 
on proximities to airports. While we have not done recent work on how 
separating ATC operations between a government entity and private 
organizations might specifically impact airspace users, as mentioned in 
the prior question, our October 2016 report explores various issues 
that are associated with separating ATC operations from FAA.\8\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \8\ GAO-17-131.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                 ______
                                 
   Response to Written Questions Submitted by Hon. Maria Cantwell to 
                              Kevin Walsh
    Planning for Safe Transition Away from Aging Systems: In a 2019 
report, GAO looked at legacy systems across the Federal government, 
identifying the 10 most critical systems in need of replacement. The 
report observed that three agencies, including the Federal Aviation 
Administration (FAA), had ``no documented plans to modernize'' the 
critical systems identified.
    Five years later, Government Accountability Office's (GAO's) 2024 
report found that FAA still did not have near-term modernization plans 
in place for certain at-risk systems.
    This is exactly why section 622 in the FAA Reauthorization law 
mandates an outside audit of all FAA legacy systems in to determine the 
level of risk and impact associated with operating outdated, unsafe, or 
unstable older systems.
    After the audit is complete, FAA must then implement a plan to 
prioritize the drawdown, replacement, or enhancement of legacy systems 
based on the risks such systems pose to aviation safety.

    Question 1. Having multiple redundancies in systems can help delay 
or even prevent air traffic control (ATC) system failures and 
operational disruptions in the aviation system. To what extent has GAO 
seen the FAA comprehensively incorporate redundancies in legacy ATC 
systems?
    Answer. We have not done in-depth work on this topic. However, when 
we asked FAA about systems that are considered a single point of 
failure or have associated redundancies, FAA stated that depending upon 
the system, if there are not any direct or associated redundancies, 
there are procedural contingencies in place to mitigate operational 
risk. FAA officials explained that if one system goes down, another one 
takes over, or the air traffic controller uses an alternative piece of 
equipment or changes operational procedures to monitor air traffic.

    Question 2. GAO's recent report points out that planning for ATC 
systems should focus not just on upgrading legacy systems and 
installing new technologies, but also on determining which aging 
systems to decommission. In your view, is FAA taking a constructive 
approach to phasing out the systems that have outlasted their useful 
life?
    Answer. The FAA Acquisition Management System includes a 
sustainment phase referred to as In-Service Management, which entails 
revalidating the need to sustain deployed assets or taking other action 
to improve service delivery. During this phase, the service 
organization or program office responsible for sustaining a system is 
expected to periodically revalidate the need to sustain fielded assets 
or recommend other action such as upgrade, replacement, or 
decommissioning and removal.
    The Acquisition Management System also includes a Service Analysis 
phase which is intended to determine what capabilities must be in place 
now and in the future to meet agency goals and the service needs of 
customers. During this phase, the organization is intended to identify 
differences between future service need and current capability. A 
service shortfall is expected to be addressed by a sustainment action 
for existing assets or a new service delivery idea.
    We have not done in-depth work on FAA's decommissioning and 
disposition processes. However, to the extent that FAA can 
expeditiously complete its NextGen modernization efforts, the agency 
will likely be in a better position to decommission aging systems. In 
November 2023, we reported that closer FAA adherence to program 
management practices was needed.\1\ Since that report was issued, the 
FAA Reauthorization Act of 2024 requires FAA to operationalize the 
programs under NextGen by the end of 2025 and then sunset its Office of 
NextGen. The act also requires FAA to establish an office within FAA 
responsible for the modernization of NAS, including the development of 
an information-centric NAS, improving the interoperability of NAS 
systems, and developing an integrated plan for the future of NAS. As 
FAA moves in this direction, we believe that full implementation of our 
recommendations, related both to aging systems and NextGen program 
management, will target critical improvements needed for the new office 
to begin meeting the expectations of Congress in this vital area.\2\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \1\ GAO-24-105254.
    \2\ GAO-24-105254 and GAO-24-107001.

    Question 3. I understand that in some cases, FAA will need to 
operate legacy ATC systems until it can safely transition to newer 
technologies. Based on the GAO report, is FAA undergoing effective 
analysis and planning to determine when it is safe to transition away 
from operating older ATC systems?
    Answer. We have not done in-depth work on the decommissioning and 
disposition processes or the transition from one operational asset to 
another. However, FAA completed the 2023 operational risk assessment to 
assist in identifying systems that present a risk to the NAS and may be 
considered for decommissioning as part of the Acquisition Management 
System processes described earlier. Nonetheless, as reflected in our 
September 2024 report, FAA did not prioritize or establish near-term 
plans to modernize unsustainable and critical systems based on its 
operational assessment as originally intended.\3\ Officials stated that 
they plan to use the results of the 2024 operational risk assessment to 
inform future budget decisions and plans for modernization.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \3\ GAO-24-107001.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                 ______
                                 
    Response to Written Questions Submitted by Hon. Jerry Moran to 
                             Dean Iacopelli
1. NOTAM Improvement Act
    Following the January 2023 Notice to Air Missions (NOTAM) outage, I 
was pleased to introduce with my colleagues, Sens. Klobuchar and 
Capito, a bill to require FAA establish a task force to strengthen the 
resiliency and cybersecurity of the NOTAM system.
    The bill was signed into law in 2023, and the task force's report 
is expected early next year.

   Are there particular themes you expect to find in the 
        report?
    Answer. NATCA is a participant in the NOTAM task force. We expect 
themes to include acknowledgement of known vulnerabilities and risks 
associated with the current system, including the need to reduce the 
number of NOTAMs in the system, the need to prioritize the importance 
of NOTAMs in terms of the safety of flight, and the need for more 
stringent requirements for a replacement NOTAM system. Despite these 
themes, the FAA will have a difficult time funding this program without 
increased F&E appropriations. At minimum, the FAA will need $154 
million just to conduct further research on a replacement NOTAM system. 
It will need $354 million to replace the broken NOTAM system.

   How do you anticipate the findings and recommendations from 
        this report to complement GAO's findings to help bolster safety 
        of the NAS ecosystem?
    Answer. NATCA anticipates both reports will complement each other 
in defining core issues that exist in the NOTAM program and throughout 
the majority of FAA systems and programs.
    Congress has consistently provided the FAA with the resources it 
requests through both authorization of top-line numbers and the annual 
appropriations process. However, because FAA has historically requested 
too little, there are significant backlogs of NAS system sustainment 
and ATC facility sustainment, in addition to mounting delays in the 
implementation of NAS modernization and system improvements as well as 
ATC tower and radar facility replacement.
    The FAA's FY 2025 budget request, for the first time in over a 
decade, acknowledges its true need, although not entirely through its 
F&E request. In addition to the $3.6 billion F&E request, FAA cites the 
$1 billion in funds authorized for 2025 through the Infrastructure 
Investment and Jobs Act as supplementing its facilities and 
infrastructure funding needs. It also proposes a new Facility 
Replacement and Radar Modernization fund that would dedicate $8 billion 
over the next five years--beginning with $1 billion in 2025--to replace 
or modernize aging air traffic control facilities. This includes 
modernizing 377 critical radar systems and more than 20 air traffic 
control facilities. We, along with a wide array of industry 
stakeholders, strongly support this request.
    The FAA must continue to be transparent with its need for increased 
F&E funding so that it can meet its own equipment sustainment, 
replacement, and modernization needs. If not, it will continue to 
exacerbate the FAA's significant sustainment and replacement backlog. 
Failing to maintain and replace critical safety equipment that has 
exceeded its expected life introduces unnecessary risk into the system. 
These funding limitations also have prevented the FAA from designing 
and implementing new technologies that will improve safety.
                                 ______
                                 
    Response to Written Questions Submitted by Hon. Dan Sullivan to 
                             Dean Iacopelli
    With the persistent challenges faced by Congress and the FAA to 
budget for air traffic control modernization, there have periodically 
been suggestions to spin off the air traffic control systems into a 
private or quasi-private entity.
    I have deep reservations about any proposal to transfer the FAA's 
air traffic facilities to a quasi-private corporation and allow it, 
rather than Congress, to make decisions on where funding should be 
spent and how much tax general aviators should pay. This threatens to 
leave rural communities largely ignored.
    The 582 airports out of 600 in Alaska that do not have air traffic 
control would receive little if any funding for upgrades and new 
technology, and it is unclear what would happen to the 400 navigation 
aids that Alaskans depend on. The largest hubs would receive the lion's 
share of the funding leaving states like Alaska with no recourse.

    Question 1. Do you agree that congress is in the best position to 
allocate resources between the few dozen airports serving larger cities 
and the thousands of general aviation airports and facilities serving 
rural America?
    Answer. Congress has consistently provided the FAA with the 
resources it requests through both authorization of top-line numbers 
and the annual appropriations process. However, because FAA has 
consistently requested too little, there are significant backlogs of 
NAS system sustainment and ATC facility sustainment, in addition to 
mounting delays in the implementation of NAS modernization and system 
improvements as well as ATC tower and radar facility replacement.
    The budgetary shortfalls also have not kept up with inflation over 
the past 15 years. For instance, the FAA has consistently requested 
only about $3 billion in annual appropriations for F&E throughout that 
period, even though in Fiscal Year (FY) 2024 the Agency's internal 
budgetary estimates showed that it needed at least $4.5 billion, with 
that need quickly approaching $6 billion. This loss of spending and 
buying power for F&E programs forced FAA into a ``fix-on-fail'' model 
by requiring it to prioritize mandatory costs, leaving little to no 
money for modernization and infrastructure programs.
    To sustain many legacy systems, as well as to enhance and grow 
critical safety and modernization programs, the FAA projects that it 
will need $6 billion. At bare minimum, the NATCA projects that the FAA 
will need at least $4 billion to simply sustain these programs and the 
rest of the NAS. Investments that merely cover the costs to sustain 
current equipment will be insufficient to develop and implement new 
technologies and integrate new users into the system.
    The FAA's FY 2025 budget request, for the first time in over a 
decade, acknowledges its true need, although not entirely through its 
F&E request. In addition to the $3.6 billion F&E request, FAA cites the 
$1 billion in funds authorized for 2025 through the Infrastructure 
Investment and Jobs Act as supplementing its facilities and 
infrastructure funding needs. It also proposes a new Facility 
Replacement and Radar Modernization fund that would dedicate $8 billion 
over the next five years--beginning with $1 billion in 2025--to replace 
or modernize aging air traffic control facilities. This includes 
modernizing 377 critical radar systems and more than 20 air traffic 
control facilities. We, along with a wide array of industry 
stakeholders, support this request.
    NATCA is not advocating to reform FAA or the Air Traffic 
Organization's (ATO) structure.
    NATCA will oppose any reform proposal that would transfer 
management or operation of the air traffic control system to a for-
profit entity or to one that is co-owned, operated, and/or controlled 
by for-profit entities. Moreover, any FAA reform proposal must adhere 
to NATCA's core principles before we would consider endorsing it:

  1.  Ensure the frontline workforce is protected in their employment 
        relationship, including their pay, rights, retirement, health 
        care and other benefits, negotiated collective bargaining 
        agreements, and indemnification for acts within the scope of 
        their employment;

  2.  Ensure safety and efficiency remain the top priorities;

  3.  Provide for a stable, predictable funding stream that adequately 
        supports air traffic control services, staffing, hiring and 
        training, long-term modernization, preventative maintenance, 
        and ongoing modernization to infrastructure; and

  4.  Maintain a dynamic aviation system that continues to provide 
        services to all users, areas, and segments of the existing 
        aviation community as well as integrating new users.

    NATCA will meticulously review the details of any reform proposal 
before taking a position.
    Similarly, I have concerns over a non-public entity making 
decisions regarding the allocation of airspace. In Anchorage for 
example, airspace is shared among Ted Stevens International, Merrill 
Field, one of the largest general aviation airports in the country, 
Lake Hood, the world's largest floatplane airport, and major military 
airfields which conduct air training activities.
    With more licensed pilots per capita than any state in the union we 
have (9,428 active pilots), we have an extremely active General 
Aviation community in Alaska. Allocating air space among these diverse 
users should be determined by a government entity, not a private 
organization.

    Question 2. Do you agree that airspace should be available to all 
users, including those serving small towns and villages as well as 
individuals as it is currently?
    Answer. NATCA is focused on the safety and efficiency of the system 
for all users. NATCA takes pride in its role as an aviation safety 
organization that stands shoulder-to-shoulder with government and 
industry stakeholders to ensure that the NAS remains the safest and 
most efficient in the world. The air traffic controllers, including in 
Alaska Flight Service Stations, and other aviation safety professionals 
that NATCA represents throughout the Federal Aviation Administration 
(FAA), Department of Defense (DOD), and the FAA's Federal Contract 
Tower (FCT) program ensure the safe and efficient movement of GA 
aircraft and millions of tons of cargo annually, while simultaneously 
ensuring that more than one billion commercial passengers annually 
arrive at their destinations safely. In its role as a safety 
organization, NATCA does not take a position on how access to airspace 
is allocated or prioritized among existing users.
    NATCA believes the National Airspace System must continue to be a 
dynamic aviation system that continues to provide services to all 
users, areas, and segments of the existing aviation community as well 
as integrating new users.
                                 ______
                                 
   Response to Written Questions Submitted by Hon. Maria Cantwell to 
                             Dean Iacopelli
FAA Facilities and Equipment Funding
    The President's FY 2025 Budget included the establishment of a $8 
billion Facility Replacement and Radar Modernization program to make 
further investments in addressing FAA's aging infrastructure through FY 
2029. Building upon the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law $5 billion 
investment in air traffic facilities, the Administration proposal would 
provide dedicated supplemental appropriations to modernize 377 radar 
systems and more than 20 aging air traffic facilities nationwide.
    In July 2024, NATCA joined a coalition of aviation industry leaders 
advocating for the establishment of a separate annual funding stream 
from the Airport and Airway Trust Fund (AATF), dedicated solely for 
upgrading and replacing FAA air traffic facilities, systems, and 
equipment.
    While the Administration and industry coalition proposals are 
different, both emphasize using additional AATF funding to upgrade air 
traffic control system infrastructure in light of growing air travel 
demand.

    Question 1. How would air traffic controllers, air traffic support 
specialists, and other ATC professionals represented by NATCA benefit 
from additional funding to upgrade FAA systems, facilities, and 
equipment in performing their job duties?
    Answer. The FAA's FY 2025 budget request, for the first time in 
over a decade, acknowledges its true need, although not entirely 
through its F&E request. In addition to the $3.6 billion F&E request, 
FAA cites the $1 billion in funds authorized for 2025 through the 
Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act as supplementing its facilities 
and infrastructure funding needs. It also proposes a new Facility 
Replacement and Radar Modernization fund that would dedicate $8 billion 
over the next five years--beginning with $1 billion in 2025--to replace 
or modernize aging air traffic control facilities. This includes 
modernizing 377 critical radar systems and more than 20 air traffic 
control facilities. We, along with a wide array of industry 
stakeholders, strongly support this request.
    Disruptions to FAA funding and significant budgetary shortfalls 
create a more stressful, less productive work environment for all 
aviation safety professionals. Many controllers and other aviation 
safety professionals go to work every day in facilities that are 
plagued by leaking roofs, flooding basements that contain electronic 
systems, broken-down elevators and HVAC systems, and chronically 
backed-up bathroom toilets. Without sufficient funding the FAA will 
continue to experience delays implementing vital modernization 
technology, sustaining and repairing of existing safety-critical 
equipment, and the hiring and training of new controllers and other 
aviation safety professionals.
    Additional funding, such as the Facility Replacement and Radar 
Modernization proposed in the President's FY 2025 Budget, would not 
only allow for an improvement in physical infrastructure and working 
conditions, but it would also provide for desperately needed 
modernization and technology updates to aviation systems and air 
traffic control automation platforms that are used by controllers 24 
hours a day, 7 days a week.
    The FAA must continue to be transparent with its need for increased 
F&E funding so that it can meet its own equipment sustainment, 
replacement, and modernization needs. Failing to maintain and replace 
critical safety equipment that has exceeded its expected life 
introduces unnecessary risk into the system, such as the complete 
failure of the NOTAM system in 2023 and the current unexpected outages 
of the FAA's Telecommunications Infrastructure (FTI) program that are 
plaguing air traffic facilities across the country.

    Question 2. Given NATCA's support for the industry proposal, and if 
more AATF funds are made available annually, what system upgrades would 
you like to see FAA prioritize first in its modernization of air 
traffic control systems?
    Answer. NATCA has identified several automation platforms and 
modernization programs that are the most critical to maintaining and 
upgrading the National Airspace System (NAS) based on their 
relationship and necessity to the continued safe and efficient 
operation of the NAS. At the top of that list is maintaining, 
repairing, and replacing RADAR systems, some of which date back to 
1964. NATCA anticipates that RADAR failures are likely to occur in 
2025, which could cause gaps in surveillance coverage throughout the 
country. NATCA also believes that additional funding is needed for air 
traffic automation platforms such as ERAM, STARS, and ATOP enhancements 
to support new entrants, such as space launches and UAS/UAM/UTM 
operations. The Agency and NATCA have been able to fast-track a surface 
surveillance situational awareness tool that will help controllers 
mitigate the risks associated with wrong-surface landings and runway 
incursions. It needs to be deployed across all airports that do not 
currently have an existing surface tool.
                                 ______
                                 
  Response to Written Questions Submitted by Hon. Tammy Duckworth to 
                             Dean Iacopelli
    Question 1. Safety is the most important concern, but equipment 
failures can also cause flight delays and disruptions. In June, a feed 
from a long-range radar to the Chicago TRACON malfunctioned. Air 
traffic controllers reported seeing multiple targets on their displays. 
They saw two aircraft representing just one aircraft on their screen. 
Worse, this was at a time when there was no qualified technician on 
duty to fix the equipment. This resulted in a ground stop at O'Hare, 
while they called in an off-duty technician. In August, air traffic was 
halted in Newark due to a technology outage in Philadelphia. Ground 
stops can have ripple effects.

    When equipment failures result in ground stops--what does that mean 
for air traffic controllers and what is the impact on air traffic 
across the country?
    Answer. As you rightfully noted, equipment failures that cause 
ground stops are a tremendous burden and cause unnecessary stress for 
air traffic controllers. For controllers and other aviation safety 
professionals, an equipment failure is often treated as an emergency 
and swift action is needed to ensure safety for all aircraft and the 
flying public.
    In recent years, these unexpected outages have occurred far more 
frequently, placing an even higher workload and stress level on the air 
traffic workforce. Depending on the outage, the effects are often felt 
throughout the National Airspace System. In addition to the examples at 
the Chicago TRACON and in Philadelphia, the complete failure of the 
NOTAM system in 2023 and the anticipated outages of the FAA's 
Telecommunications Infrastructure (FTI) program going forward are 
recent examples of a long-standing problem.
Topic: Air Traffic Control Infrastructure
    Question 2. While recently describing the need for FAA to upgrade 
its facilities to keep up with technology, FAA Administrator Michael 
Whitaker called some of the current efforts ``band-aid'' solutions with 
``a lot of duct tape''.

    Do you agree with Administrator Whitaker's characterization, and if 
so, can you describe how this ``band-aid'' approach is impacting air 
traffic controllers?
    Answer. NATCA concurs with the statement from Administrator 
Whitaker. Controllers are working in rapidly-aging facilities, using 
outdated and unstable technology that lacks modern automation. These 
issues can lead to significant delays and a tremendous increase in 
workload.
    Although the FAA has begun the process of upgrading its rapidly 
aging infrastructure to improve technology, that process has been slow 
and hampered by the Agency not requesting its full need for F&E funding 
throughout the last 15 years. This loss of spending and buying power 
forced FAA into a ``fix-on-fail'' model by requiring it to prioritize 
mandatory costs, leaving little to no money for modernization and 
infrastructure programs. The FAA's ``fix-on-fail'' philosophy has also 
been applied to maintenance and repair projects, as the Agency stopped 
stockpiling critical parts for essential operational equipment 
resulting in a backlog of maintenance projects at facilities around the 
country.
    Congress has consistently provided the FAA with the resources it 
requests through both authorization of top-line numbers and the annual 
appropriations process. However, because FAA has consistently requested 
inadequate resources, there are significant backlogs of NAS system 
sustainment and ATC facility sustainment, in addition to mounting 
delays in the implementation of NAS modernization and system 
improvements as well as ATC tower and radar facility replacement.
    Furthermore, the F&E budget has not kept up with inflation over the 
past 15 years. For instance, the FAA has consistently requested only 
about $3 billion in annual appropriations for F&E throughout that 
period, even though in Fiscal Year (FY) 2024 the Agency's internal 
budgetary estimates showed that it needed at least $4.5 billion, with 
that need quickly approaching $6 billion. This loss of spending and 
buying power for F&E programs forced FAA into a ``fix-on-fail'' model 
by requiring it to prioritize mandatory costs, leaving little to no 
money for modernization and infrastructure programs.
    The FAA's FY 2025 budget request, for the first time in over a 
decade, acknowledges its true need, although not entirely through its 
F&E request. In addition to the $3.6 billion F&E request, FAA cites the 
$1 billion in funds authorized for 2025 through the Infrastructure 
Investment and Jobs Act as supplementing its facilities and 
infrastructure funding needs. It also proposes a new Facility 
Replacement and Radar Modernization fund that would dedicate $8 billion 
over the next five years--beginning with $1 billion in 2025--to replace 
or modernize aging air traffic control facilities. This includes 
modernizing 377 critical radar systems and more than 20 air traffic 
control facilities. We, along with a wide array of industry 
stakeholders, strongly support this request.
Topic: Close Calls and Near Misses
    Question 3. Coming out of the pandemic, we saw an alarming rise in 
close calls in commercial aviation. Last year, FAA convened a safety 
summit to bring stakeholders together to address it. We've done a lot 
of work since then to help restore our margins of safety--including 
passing an FAA reauthorization law with many safety enhancements. But 
the new law is just starting to be implemented, and in the meantime, 
our aviation system remains stressed.

    Do you think modernizing our aging air traffic control systems 
would improve our safety margins and if so, how?
    Answer. Although it is the safest, most efficient, and most complex 
airspace system in the world, we should always strive to bolster 
safety, mitigate risk, and improve efficiency. NATCA believes that 
investing in modernization and technology programs will improve the 
margins of safety in addition to enhancing system efficiencies.
    The FAA's aging radar surveillance infrastructure is in dire need 
of modernization. NATCA anticipates in the near future, RADARs 
throughout the U.S. will start to fail causing gaps in surveillance 
coverage. Likewise, new RADAR technology could also allow for 
surveillance coverage in areas where coverage does not currently exist. 
In addition, emerging technologies and new entrant activity such as 
UAS, UAM, and increased space launches will require updated automation 
technology so controllers can continue to ensure as the system improves 
safety margins rather than degrade.
    The Agency and NATCA have been able to fast-track a surface 
surveillance situational awareness tool that will help controllers 
mitigate the risks associated with wrong-surface landings and runway 
incursions. It needs to be deployed at facilities that do not have an 
existing surface surveillance tool.
Topic: Fiber Optic Cables
    Question 4. You noted in your testimony that FAA needs to upgrade 
its telecommunications from copper wire to fiber optic cable but since 
FAA only has enough funding to proceed on a case-by-case basis, FAA is 
stuck spending $7 million per month just to maintain the old copper 
wire that ultimately needs to be replaced. That's $85 million a year.

    How important is this transition from copper to fiber optic cable 
and is this something we should be accomplishing more swiftly?
    Answer. FAA telecommunications are the backbone of the air traffic 
control system, which makes the transition from copper wire to fiber 
optic cable absolutely critical to the operation of the National 
Airspace System (NAS). This network provides data to air traffic 
control information and automation platforms in addition to air-to-
ground communications and facility-to-facility communications.
    Presently, there are over 30,000 services at over 4,600 FAA sites 
that must transition away from copper wire and onto a fiber optic cable 
network in order to avoid severe service disruptions and extensive 
flight delays. NATCA believes the current timeline to complete the 
transition is insufficient when compared to the rate of copper wire 
discontinuances.
    One of FAA's three main service providers has advised the Agency 
that it will be discontinuing copper wire services two years earlier 
than originally planned. This requires the FAA to reallocate resources 
to ensure that none of the affected facilities lose services during 
2025 before the discontinuance occurs.
                                 ______
                                 
   Response to Written Questions Submitted by Hon. Amy Klobuchar to 
                             Dean Iacopelli
Air Traffic Controllers Hiring
    Question 1. Our nation is facing a shortage of air traffic 
controllers, causing flight disruptions and safety risks across the 
country and seriously straining our air traffic controller workforce, 
and putting travelers at risk. The Federal Aviation Administration 
Reauthorization passed in May included my bill with Senator Braun, the 
Air Traffic Controllers Hiring Act, to boost Federal Aviation 
Administration training capacity and increase the Federal Aviation 
Administration's use of its expedited hiring authority.

    In your view, how should the Federal Aviation Administration focus 
on training and hiring more controllers?
    Answer. NATCA thanks Sen. Klobuchar and Sen. Braun for their 
leadership in passing the Air Traffic Controllers Hiring Act as part of 
the FAA Reauthorization Act of 2024. The FAA must take a holistic, 
collaborative approach to resolving its staffing and training 
challenges. The first step is implementing the Collaborative Resource 
Workgroup's (CRWG) jointly-developed operational CPC staffing targets 
for each facility as the basis for its annual Controller Workforce Plan 
(CWP) as required by the FAA Reauthorization Act of 2024, while 
continuing maximum controller hiring for at least the duration of the 
Act.
    The FAA also must continue to submit annual budget requests for its 
Operations account that account for the increased cost to hire and 
train at least 2,000 new air traffic controllers annually, in order to 
rebuild controller staffing levels and meet current and projected 
traffic demands.
    NATCA supports the Department of Transportation's (DOT) Fiscal Year 
(FY) 2025 Operations budget request, which included an increase to 
$13.6 billion from the 2024 Continuing Resolution level of $12.72 
billion, in recognition that the FAA will experience several 
uncontrollable cost increases in addition to maximum controller hiring. 
In July 2024, the Senate Appropriations Committee approved this budget 
request in its FY 2025 THUD appropriations bill.
    We were pleased the negotiators from the House and Senate agreed to 
an anomaly in the December-passed Continuing Resolution to ensure the 
FAA can maintain its hiring, training, and staffing plans until a full-
year appropriations bill can be passed.
Air Traffic Control Infrastructure
    Question 2. Smaller regional airports provide a vital link to the 
rest of the world for many rural communities, particularly for both 
residents and businesses in my state that rely on them to connect to 
the Twin Cities and beyond. At the Duluth International Airport, the 
current air traffic tower is 70 years old, making it one of the oldest 
towers in the country. It does not meet current Federal Aviation 
Administration line-of-sight requirements, and it needs significant 
repairs. I've been fighting to get them the funding to build a new one.

    What do you see as the biggest obstacles for building out 
infrastructure to support air traffic controllers?
    Answer. The FAA operates more than 300 ATC facilities of varying 
ages and conditions. NATCA has been and continues to advocate for 
additional funding to repair and replace the FAA's physical 
infrastructure. Although the FAA has begun the process of addressing 
its rapidly aging infrastructure through a combination of realignments, 
sustaining and maintaining some facilities, and replacing a handful of 
others, that process has been slow and hampered by funding disruptions 
and limitations. The landmark, bipartisan Infrastructure Investment and 
Jobs Act (IIJA) was a huge step in the right direction in addressing 
these issues, but it will not be enough on its own.
    Some of the biggest hurdles, beyond funding limitations, include 
significantly-high vendor costs, flawed FAA/vendor contracts, and 
vendor inability to provide product that meets FAA's needs and 
standards.
                                 ______
                                 
    Response to Written Questions Submitted by Hon. Jerry Moran to 
                               Dave Spero
1. Pace of Modernization
    The GAO report has highlighted that many of the safety critical 
systems currently operating are well past their planned service life. 
It is, though, clear to me the endurance of these systems is a 
testament to the quality of the Kansas workforce that has been 
manufacturing these systems for decades.
    Congress has allocated $5 billion over 5 years for airspace system 
infrastructure modernization, though the pace of deploying new 
technologies, also produced in Kansas, could take years.

   As an expert in the operations and maintenance of these 
        systems, is this a sustainable path forward?
    Answer. The largest PASS bargaining unit at the FAA is the Air 
Traffic Organization (ATO) Technical Operations unit, consisting of 
technical employees who install, maintain, repair and certify the 
radar, navigation, communication and power equipment that comprises the 
U.S. National Airspace System (NAS).
    Within Technical Operations, PASS represents FAA airway 
transportation systems specialists, more commonly referred to as 
technicians. Technicians ensure the functionality of communications, 
computers, navigational aids and power systems vital to safe air travel 
and the mission of pilots and air traffic controllers. Technicians 
maintain aging systems while simultaneously interfacing with highly 
technical, state of the art cloud-based solutions, and this is often 
overlooked.
    As emphasized in PASS's testimony, PASS-represented technicians in 
the field have many concerns regarding issues with aging equipment and 
the pace at which the equipment is being upgraded. Of utmost 
importance, the correct number of technicians must be in place to 
maintain the current equipment and assist in the implementation of new 
equipment and technology. The amount of time it takes to upgrade one 
system at hundreds of locations across the country can be considerable. 
Without the right number of technicians in place to install the new 
systems and equipment while also maintaining operations around the 
country, the time to upgrade the system can take even longer.
    While PASS appreciates the funding allocated by Congress for 
airspace system infrastructure modernization, it is also essential to 
recruit and retain the right number of employees to ensure a successful 
modernization. For the FAA to do that, it needs to develop, in 
collaboration with PASS, a workforce staffing model and implement it as 
soon as possible. Once the staffing is appropriate a paradigm shift to 
have our workforce install equipment across the NAS quicker and more 
efficiently so it is not obsolete before it is completely installed 
would accelerate aviation modernization.
2. NOTAM Improvement Act
    Following the January 2023 Notice to Air Missions (NOTAM) outage, I 
was pleased to introduce with my colleagues, Sens. Klobuchar and 
Capito, a bill to require FAA establish a task force to strengthen the 
resiliency and cybersecurity of the NOTAM system. The bill was signed 
into law in 2023, and the task force's report is expected early next 
year.

   Are there particular themes you expect to find in the 
        report?

   How do you anticipate the findings and recommendations from 
        this report to complement GAO's findings to help bolster the 
        safety of the NAS ecosystem?
    Answer. PASS expects the report to include themes that address but 
are not limited to the following issues: ensuring NOTAMs are accurate, 
timely, relevant, and contain pertinent information; best practices to 
improve the accuracy and understandability of NOTAMs; how to educate 
and work with air carriers, other airspace users and aviation service 
providers; NOTAM cybersecurity, stability, and resiliency; and 
training.
    It is also likely that the report will determine if its 
recommendations satisfy the National Transportation Safety Board's 
safety recommendation A-18-024, which asks the FAA to ``establish a 
group of human factors experts to review existing methods for 
presenting flight operations information to pilots . . . to optimize 
pilot review.'' \1\ By emphasizing human factors design, information 
prioritization, stakeholder collaboration, and modernization of the 
NOTAM system, these actions align with the NTSB's goal to enhance how 
pilots receive and retain flight operations information, particularly 
in critical situations such as what happened in the Air Canada 759 
incident it references in the recommendation.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \1\ National Transportation Safety Board, ``Taxiway Overflight Air 
Canada Flight 759 Airbus A20-211, C-FKCK, San Francisco, California, 
July 7, 2017.'' Report Number AIR-18-01. Adopted on September 25, 2018. 
Published on October 11, 2018. https://www.ntsb.gov/safety/safety-recs/
recletters/A-18-023-029.pdf
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
3. Limiting Factors
    Page 7 of the GAO report highlights that a lack of spare parts for 
certain systems is point of concern to maintaining these systems.

   What are some of the limiting factors for part production?
    Answer. In February, PASS was granted the opportunity to provide 
the Government Accountability Office (GAO) with information regarding 
135 FAA programs and services. In order to provide the GAO with the 
most accurate and current information, PASS shared the list of programs 
and services with Technical Operations employees throughout the country 
and asked them to complete a survey. In addition to providing 
information on systems not on the GAO's list, the results of the survey 
indicate top concerns are related to aging equipment, cumbersome 
procedures, parts that are unreliable or unavailable, system 
complexity, and staffing and training of the workforce. At the rapid 
pace with which technology changes, the FAA is getting further behind 
in replacing aging systems.
    For instance, a PASS member who was surveyed cited key concerns 
with the High Intensity Approach Lighting System with Sequenced 
Flashing Lights (ALSF-2). The ALSF-2 is an approach lighting system 
(ALS), which provides the basic means to transition from instrument 
flight to visual flight for landing. This provides visual information 
on runway alignment, height perception, roll guidance and horizontal 
references for Category II/III instrument approaches.
    ALSF is critical for an airport in low visibility weather 
situations. If it is not working, the airport is downgraded, which 
means some aircraft cannot land. An ALSF system failure would 
constitute significant delays to an airport and the NAS overall in 
instrument flight rules (IFR) conditions. However, due to the age of 
this system, light rebuild kits for ALSF are not reliable. Lighted 
navigational aids require regular parts replacement and fail often. If 
an outdated replacement part is either unreliable or unavailable, the 
impact on the system could be far-reaching.
    While PASS is not involved with the production of parts, the union 
concurs that the lack of spare parts is concerning. PASS stands ready 
to assist with a further review of issues related to the availability 
of parts.
4. Workforce
    The GAO report highlighted challenges not new to the FAA: 
workforce--and difficulties recruiting technicians with the skills 
required to maintain some of these older systems.
    In your testimony, you indicated it can take up to three years to 
fully train a technician to perform necessary duties related to a 
position. As noted in the report, the systems your workforce is 
responsible for maintaining are outdated and technologies no longer 
commonly taught at technical schools.

   To what degree does this situation exacerbate the training 
        challenge?
    As indicated in PASS's testimony, hiring and training new 
technicians is not a quick or easy process. FAA technicians must be 
skilled and proficient on multiple systems. It can take up to three 
years to fully train an FAA technician to perform all necessary duties 
related to the position. Furthermore, the FAA is still playing catch up 
after its training academy in Oklahoma City was shuttered during the 
COVID-19 pandemic.
    Exacerbating the issue is the fact that the FAA training for many 
aging systems and equipment is not offered very often. This is another 
reason the current workforce is essential. The knowledge and skills 
these employees have are vital to the continued operation of the 
system. We must utilize the technicians' knowledge working these 
programs to provide on the job training to a new generation of 
technicians before they retire. We cannot let this knowledge walk out 
the door when they retire. FAA employees must be trained to maintain 
and certify all systems and equipment in the aviation system--both 
current and those newly introduced.

   Are there ways industry and Congress can work together to 
        provide technical programs to better equip current and future 
        technicians for their jobs, with the systems-wide modernization 
        and replacement in mind?
    Answer. The FAA must address aging systems and equipment throughout 
the National Airspace System (NAS) based on careful analysis combined 
with efficient and effective action. Given the pace of technology, many 
systems and equipment are on the path to becoming outdated every day. 
The technician workforce can be instrumental in assisting the agency in 
ensuring successful implementation and updates throughout the NAS.
    PASS believes there are many ways industry and Congress can 
collaborate to better equip current and future technicians. 
Congressional inquiry and legislation is essential to securing both 
attention and funding for many aspects of the aviation system. But 
without the FAA's commitment to action, little can be accomplished.
    For example, PASS thanks lawmakers for including language in the 
2024 FAA reauthorization bill directing the agency to install 15 
taxpayer-purchased instrument landing systems (ILS) that are in storage 
in Independence, Missouri. The technicians PASS represents are ready 
and capable of completing this task when fully staffed. This pilot 
program can be an example of how we can save time and taxpayer dollars 
by utilizing the Federal workforce. This is a prime example of the FAA 
taking steps toward identifying a solution but then failing to complete 
the work to implement it. While the language in the reauthorization law 
directs the FAA to install the ILS within 18 months of the law's 
passage (May 2024), PASS's attempts to coordinate with the agency to 
begin the project have gone unreturned. As far as PASS knows, the 
equipment--paid for by the taxpayer--is still not in service.
                                 ______
                                 
    Response to Written Questions Submitted by Hon. Dan Sullivan to 
                               Dave Spero
    With the persistent challenges faced by Congress and the FAA to 
budget for air traffic control modernization, there have periodically 
been suggestions to spin off the air traffic control systems into a 
private or quasi-private entity.
    I have deep reservations about any proposal to transfer the FAA's 
air traffic facilities to a quasi-private corporation and allow it, 
rather than Congress, to make decisions on where funding should be 
spent and how much tax general aviators should pay. This threatens to 
leave rural communities largely ignored.
    The 582 airports out of 600 in Alaska that do not have air traffic 
control would receive little if any funding for upgrades and new 
technology, and it is unclear what would happen to the 400 navigation 
aids that Alaskans depend on. The largest hubs would receive the lion's 
share of the funding leaving states like Alaska with no recourse.

    Question 1. Do you agree that Congress is in the best position to 
allocate resources between the few dozen airports serving larger cities 
and the thousands of general aviation airports and facilities serving 
rural America?
    Answer. PASS has been opposed to any attempt to privatize the 
aviation system. We have consistently maintained that the U.S. 
government is the only entity that should be responsible for the safe 
and efficient operation of this country's aviation system. This 
country's aviation system is clearly valuable both in terms of economic 
impact and services provided. It is obvious that such an asset should 
be properly funded and overseen. Privatizing the air traffic control 
system would do neither.
    In fact, congressional oversight would be severely curtailed and 
that congressional oversight ensures that the flying public has a voice 
when it comes to aviation-related issues. This is even more essential 
in Alaska and other rural or smaller environments. Many smaller 
airports across the country are dependent on congressional involvement 
and support in order to continue to operate. Under a private model, 
local cities and towns could be increasingly saddled with the costs of 
keeping their airports open and maintained properly.
    PASS agrees that Congress should continue to allocate aviation 
resources throughout the country.

    Similarly, I have concerns over a non-public entity making 
decisions regarding the allocation of airspace. In Anchorage for 
example, airspace is shared among Ted Stevens International, Merrill 
Field, one of the largest general aviation airports in the country, 
Lake Hood, the world's largest floatplane airport, and major military 
airfields which conduct air training activities.
    With more licensed pilots per capita than any state in the union we 
have (9,428 active pilots), we have an extremely active General 
Aviation community in Alaska. Allocating air space among these diverse 
users should be determined by a government entity, not a private 
organization.

    Question 2. Do you agree that airspace should be available to all 
users, including those serving small towns and villages as well as 
individuals as it is currently?
    Answer. PASS firmly believes that airspace should be available to 
all licensed and certified users throughout the system. Our air traffic 
control system is a national public asset and PASS strongly believes it 
should remain in the public trust.
    Allowing any entity other than the U.S. government to allocate 
airspace would place such decisions in the hands of a private entity 
not focused on what is best for the country overall. Furthermore, 
Americans in rural areas rely on their local, smaller airports for 
employment, commerce and transportation. Many of these smaller airports 
will not have a congressional advocate under a private model and it is 
possible that a nongovernmental entity would do away with Essential Air 
Service program. It is feasible that a corporation would not focus on 
maintaining these facilities if they are not profitable, essentially 
shrinking this country's airspace.
                                 ______
                                 
   Response to Written Questions Submitted by Hon. Maria Cantwell to 
                               Dave Spero
    Safety Risk Analysis of FAA's Technician Workforce: In addition to 
aviation safety inspectors, Professional Aviation Safety Specialists 
(PASS) represents FAA employees who play an integral role in operating, 
maintaining, and certifying air traffic control systems. This includes 
FAA's technical operations workforce made up of airway transportation 
systems specialists, commonly referred to as technicians. However, as 
air traffic systems age, so does the workforce that has the knowledge 
and expertise to operate and maintain these systems.

    Question 1. Has FAA's Air Traffic Organization (ATO) conducted a 
safety risk management (SRM) analysis with respect to the technician 
workforce to evaluate staffing challenges associated with operating 
aging systems?
    Answer. The Professional Aviation Safety Specialists, AFL-CIO 
(PASS) appreciates the opportunity to address these questions and 
concerns. As indicated in the question submitted by Hon. Maria 
Cantwell, the FAA's Technical Operations workforce is responsible for 
maintaining and certifying this country's aviation system and, as the 
system ages, so too does the workforce.
    While the FAA has a process in place for conducting safety risk 
management (SRM) analyses, the primary objective of SRM is to provide 
information regarding hazards, safety risk and safety risk mitigations 
to agency decision-makers. The target of such analyses is usually 
safety risks outside of the makeup of the workforce. This means that 
while the SRM is able to identify certain risks and hazards, PASS is 
not aware of the agency using this method to examine its staffing 
challenges. The FAA should apply SRM to workforce and staffing issues.

    Question 2. Has ATO done such an analysis to determine the number 
of technicians it needs per FAA facility to ensure the safe and 
reliable operation of ATC systems in the National Airspace System? If 
so, what has been the level of coordination between ATO and PASS in 
assessing and developing solutions to this staffing issue?
    Answer. PASS has long called attention to not only the need for 
sufficient technical staffing but also the lack of a reliable staffing 
model on which to base staffing decisions and placement. As stated in 
PASS's written testimony, the FAA has been developing the Technical 
Operations staffing model (TSM) for over a decade and the agency is 
aware that the workforce is short at least 800 technicians.
    PASS has concerns that the FAA's current strategy is not taking 
into consideration all the necessary data to determine the optimum 
number of technicians. PASS has provided input and assisted the FAA on 
attempts to establish an adequate workforce plan, but the union feels 
as if the agency is not fully cooperating with PASS to develop such a 
plan. As always, the union stands ready to assist the FAA with a 
staffing plan that will take into consideration all the elements of the 
position, including the responsibility of ensuring the safe and 
efficient operation of aging and new systems and equipment.
    Air Traffic Specialist and Technician Workforce Shortages: Due to 
severe FAA technician staffing shortages in some areas of the air 
traffic control system, the responsibility of keeping some systems 
running falls on one FAA employee. At the San Antonio System Support 
Center,
    for instance, at the hearing date there was just one full-time 
certified technician responsible for servicing three long-range radar 
sites within hundreds of miles from San Antonio. He has since been 
promoted and there is not a certified technician in this area to 
maintain the three long-range radars. And overall, the FAA is short at 
least 800 technicians throughout the National Airspace System.

    Question 3. While we are grateful to dedicated FAA employees who 
make it possible to maintain aging systems that still perform key 
safety functions, do you believe these technician workforce shortages 
insert operational safety risks into the National Airspace System? 
Would you agree short-staffed FAA facilities expose single points of 
failure in how FAA operates air traffic systems?
    Answer. PASS is extremely concerned that the technician staffing 
shortages introduce additional risk into the National Airspace System 
(NAS). Insufficient technician staffing can result in increased 
restoration times and more air traffic delays during an outage. It can 
also make it difficult to ensure adequate shift coverage by 
technicians, another scenario that increases the risk of major air 
traffic issues.
    For example, as PASS discussed in testimony presented in July to 
the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee Aviation 
Subcommittee, an incident over the summer with a radar system caused a 
ground stop when no technician was on site with the requisite skills to 
fix the issue. Just a few weeks later at the same airport, a power 
supply failure led to another ground stop. The failure was resolved 
quickly yet required an off-duty technician to intervene to restore it 
to service. Again, there was no technician with that skillset on duty. 
Even brief ground stops have a ripple effect across the NAS. These two 
problems would have been resolved immediately if the agency had the 
right number of people with the right training in place.
    While the FAA acknowledges that it is short at least 800 
technicians, PASS and the employees we represent have serious concerns 
that this number is far higher. The FAA is not taking into 
consideration many factors that go into a fully trained and capable 
technician who is able to perform all duties required of the position. 
PASS again emphasizes that we are prepared to assist the agency in 
determining the right path forward to ensure adequate staffing at 
facilities throughout the country.

    Question 4. What is PASS doing in its own capacity to recruit more 
FAA technicians, share knowledge about aging systems, and ensure they 
receive proper training to enable them to respond in the event of a 
system issue or outage?
    Answer. FAA technicians must be skilled and proficient on multiple 
systems. It can take up to three years to fully train an FAA technician 
to perform all necessary duties related to the position. Unfortunately, 
the FAA is still playing catch up after its training academy in 
Oklahoma City was shuttered during the COVID-19 pandemic. In addition, 
the FAA does not hire new technicians before experienced technicians 
retire. That training and expertise walks out the door without 
mentoring the next generation of employees. We encourage proactive 
staffing so this expertise is taught to the next generation of 
technicians.
    PASS consistently expresses concern with the training of the 
technician workforce and the ability of the FAA to keep current with 
hiring and training new technicians. It is a long process because these 
employees are tasked with such an important responsibility. However, in 
order for the agency to function safely and efficiently, it is a 
process that must be made a priority.
    Furthermore, the membership of PASS is a diverse group of men and 
women from across the country. PASS is focused on increasing efforts to 
recruit new employees and retain the current workforce. Our members 
serve on committees, organizations and boards tasked with building 
interest and involvement in aviation. PASS members also participate in 
tradeshows and events at schools specifically aimed at attracting youth 
to a career in aviation. In addition, PASS worked closely with the FAA 
to develop the Gateways Internship\1\ program to hire college and even 
high school students as trainee technicians to receive practical, on-
the-job experience while still in school. But comprehensive training 
for all technicians must remain paramount.
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    \1\ Federal Aviation Administration, Gateways Program, https://
www.faa.gov/jobs/students/gateways, (accessed January 17, 2025).
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