[Senate Hearing 118-702]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]



                                                        S. Hrg. 118-702

                   REDUCING PRESCRIPTION DRUG PRICES:
                        HOW COMPETITION CAN MAKE
                  MEDICATIONS AFFORDABLE FOR PATIENTS

=======================================================================



                                HEARING

                               before the

                       COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY
                          UNITED STATES SENATE

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                             SECOND SESSION

                               __________

                            OCTOBER 29, 2024

                               __________

                           CHICAGO, ILLINOIS

                               __________

                          Serial No. J-118-82

                               __________

         Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary




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                        www.judiciary.senate.gov
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                               ______
                                 

                 U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE

61-373                    WASHINGTON : 2026








                       COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY

                   RICHARD J. DURBIN, Illinois, Chair
                   
SHELDON WHITEHOUSE, Rhode Island     LINDSEY O. GRAHAM, South Carolina, 
AMY KLOBUCHAR, Minnesota                 Ranking Member
CHRISTOPHER A. COONS, Delaware       CHARLES E. GRASSLEY, Iowa
RICHARD BLUMENTHAL, Connecticut      JOHN CORNYN, Texas
MAZIE K. HIRONO, Hawaii              MICHAEL S. LEE, Utah
CORY A. BOOKER, New Jersey           TED CRUZ, Texas
ALEX PADILLA, California             JOSH HAWLEY, Missouri
JON OSSOFF, Georgia                  TOM COTTON, Arkansas
PETER WELCH, Vermont                 JOHN KENNEDY, Louisiana
LAPHONZA BUTLER, California          THOM TILLIS, North Carolina
                                     MARSHA BLACKBURN, Tennessee
                                     
             Joseph Zogby, Chief Counsel and Staff Director
      Katherine Nikas, Republican Chief Counsel and Staff Director








                            C O N T E N T S

                              ----------                              

                           OPENING STATEMENTS

                                                                   Page

Durbin, Hon. Richard J...........................................     1

                               WITNESSES

Davis, Hon. Danny K., U.S. Representative from Illinois..........     3
Schakowsky, Hon. Jan, U.S. Representative from Illinois..........     4
Foster, Hon. Bill, U.S. Representative from Illinois.............     6
Krishnamoorthi, Hon. Raja, U.S. Representative from Illinois.....     8
Casten, Hon. Sean, U.S. Representative from Illinois.............     9
Garcia, Hon. Jesus G. ``Chuy,'' U.S. Representative from Illinois    11
Ramirez, Hon. Delia C., U.S. Representative from Illinois........    12
Brandt, Deanna...................................................    23
    Prepared statement...........................................    35
Douglas, Anthony D., II..........................................    19
    Prepared statement...........................................    37
Raoul, Kwame.....................................................    15
    Prepared statement...........................................    39
Sachs, Rachel E..................................................    17
    Prepared statement...........................................    43
Sandsmark, Michael A.............................................    21
    Prepared statement...........................................    60

                                APPENDIX

Items submitted for the record...................................    63








 
                   REDUCING PRESCRIPTION DRUG PRICES:
                        HOW COMPETITION CAN MAKE
                  MEDICATIONS AFFORDABLE FOR PATIENTS

                              ----------                              


                       TUESDAY, OCTOBER 29, 2024

                              United States Senate,
                                Committee on the Judiciary,
                                                       Chicago, IL.
    The Committee met, pursuant to notice at 10 a.m., in 
Everett McKinley Dirksen United States Courthouse in Chicago, 
Illinois, Hon. Richard J. Durbin, Chair of the Committee, 
presiding.
    Present: Senators Durbin [presiding].
    Also present: Representatives Davis, Schakowsky, Foster, 
Krishnamoorthi, Casten, Garcia, and Ramirez.

         OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. RICHARD J. DURBIN, 
           A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF ILLINOIS

    Chair Durbin. I just want to thank the judges, the clerks 
of the court martial service, and all the staff and personnel 
for today's hearing at the Dirksen Federal Courthouse.
    Today, the Committee will examine an issue on lives of many 
people in Illinois and across the country; the high price of 
prescription drugs. It is a scandalous situation in America. 
People in the United States pay the highest prescription drug 
prices in the world. On average, four times more than people in 
similar countries pay for brand name medications.
    For example, a well-known blood thinner, Eliquis, entered 
the market in 2013, 11 years ago, and it cost $3,100 annually 
in the United States. Same drug made by the same company for 
sale in Japan was not $3,100, it was $1,000. And over the past 
decade, the price in the United States has more than doubled 
from $3,100 to $7,100. Meanwhile, in Japan, the price has 
dropped. Same drug, same company.
    Why? For years, Big Pharma has abused our patent system to 
obtain monopolies and medications so they can charge these sky-
high prices. At the same time, they spend billions of dollars 
to fill the airwaves with ads. So, patients tell their doctors 
they need drugs like Eliquis, so they can go skiing, fishing, 
white water rafting. By fueling demand for expensive 
medications that are walled off from competition by clever 
patent schemes, Big Pharma has made American patients their 
profit engine.
    Thankfully, this administration and Democrats in Congress 
decided to do something about it. In 2022, Congress passed and 
President signed the Inflation Reduction Act. Not one single 
Republican voted for it. Under this law, we have capped the 
price of insulin at $35 a month, saving 50,000 seniors in 
Illinois about $500 a year. We have made vaccines under 
Medicare free.
    When shingles or RSV vaccines can cost up to $300 a dose, 
this change creates real savings for 1.4 million seniors in 
Illinois. Starting in January, there'll be a $2,000 annual cap 
on out-of-pocket costs for seniors. Meaning, no matter how 
expensive your medications are, you will not pay more than 
$2,000 in copay.
    I want to show you a chart. In August, the Biden/Harris 
Administration started negotiating with Big Pharma, to lower 
prices for 10 of the most expensive drugs under Medicare, 
resulting in price savings of up to 79 percent. I know it's 
impossible to read, trust me, that's what it says.
    [Poster is displayed.]
    [Laughter.]
    As a result of this negotiation, 9 million seniors will 
save a total of $1.5 billion in annual out-of-pocket costs, 
including nearly 300,000 seniors in Illinois who take one of 
these 10 drugs. Remember Eliquis, the one I talked about 
earlier? Thanks to this new law, Medicare was able to 
permanently cut its price in half, taking nearly $300 off the 
monthly price tag for more than 100,000 seniors in our State. 
This is just the beginning. Next year, Medicare will negotiate 
to lower prices for another 15 drugs, and 20 in the year after 
that.
    But just as these historic savings are starting to take 
effect, there are great threats to their progress. Eight 
pharmaceutical companies raced to Federal courthouses to stop 
the price negotiation. And former President Trump and his 
Republican allies want to repeal this provision altogether.
    In this Committee, we often hear cries that these reforms 
will freeze innovation because the high cost of research and 
development for new drugs justifies these astronomical prices. 
That's the former argument. But these critics failed to mention 
that taxpayer-funded new research at the National Institutes of 
Health benefited 99 percent of all drugs approved by the FDA in 
the last decade. In other words, our tax dollars being spent by 
the National Institutes of Health are establishing the research 
necessary to develop these drugs.
    They also fail to mention that many pharmaceutical 
companies spend more on sales and marketing than they do on 
research and development. Too often, the prices Big Pharma 
charges do not reflect scientific breakthroughs, but rather 
manipulation by lawyers and marketers. In fact, the top 10 
bestselling drugs in 2021 were covered by an average of 42 
active patents that block competition and create windfall 
profits.
    The Judiciary Committee has taken a leading role in 
addressing Big Pharma schemes. Last year, the Committee 
unanimously reported five bipartisan bills that address these 
anti-competitive tactics. This includes my bill with Senator 
Tillis, Republican, of North Carolina, to improve information 
sharing between the FDA and the patent office to prevent 
gamesmanship. Congress needs to pass these bills into law.
    Drugs are not effective in treating disease if a patient 
can't afford to buy them. Our hearing today will explore how 
legislation like IRA and the Judiciary Committee bills will 
help ensure patient access to lifesaving medications.
    Let me lay out the mechanics for today's hearings. I'm 
joined today by seven members of the Illinois congressional 
delegation. Some arriving a little late with early morning 
appointments in other places, but I'm glad you're here. I have 
first recognized them to give brief statements. After we hear 
from our House colleagues, we will turn to our outside witness 
panel. After I introduce and swear in the witnesses, each 
witness has a 5-minute opening statement, and then we'll have 
questions and answers.
    I'll now turn to our first panel. I will call my colleagues 
from Congress in order of seniority unless they are late in 
arriving due to scheduling conflicts. But the first was here 
early, and I will welcome him. Congressman Danny K. Davis, you 
may make an opening statement if you wish.

               STATEMENT OF HON. DANNY K. DAVIS, 
      UNITED STATES REPRESENTATIVE (IL-07), WASHINGTON, DC

    Representative Davis. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Senator 
Durbin, and Ranking Member, Senator Graham, and Members of the 
Judiciary Committee. Let me, first of all, thank you for 
holding this field hearing to discuss an important issue to my 
constituents and the Nation about prescription drug prices.
    Back in 2010 when our Nation did not have affordable 
insurance plans for the poor and the needy, my colleagues and I 
on the Committee of Ways and Means, Energy and Commerce, 
Education and Workforce, and others in the House, helped 
produce legislation for President Barack Obama to sign into law 
on March 23, the Affordable Care Act that overhauled the U.S. 
healthcare system.
    Healthcare reform is not health insurance, but a law that 
made changes to the insurance system to allow many uninsured, 
underinsured, and employer-based insured individuals to receive 
at least 10 essential health benefits in their planned 
coverages. The historic ACA reduced the number of uninsured 
Americans by more than 20 million, extended critical consumer 
protections to more than 100 million individuals strengthened 
our health system by lowering the cost and requiring all 
marketplace insurance plans to cover treatment for preexisting 
medical conditions that affects up to 129 million Americans.
    The ACA is a good first step and framework to strengthen 
and improve our healthcare system that we can build upon 
through future policy initiatives to provide greater access, 
quality services, and lower cost drugs to underserved and needy 
Americans throughout our country.
    This law staged our reform efforts to alter and change 
prescription drug accessibility and affordability, especially 
when we are confronted with drug manufacturers and pharmacy 
benefit managers who are producing certain medications and 
managing prescription drug benefits on behalf of insurers that 
cost too much money.
    One of those policy initiatives I'm talking about is the 
Build Back Better Act, where my colleagues and I developed a 
legislative language with respect to high priced drugs that are 
included in the Inflation Reduction Act that President Biden 
and Vice-President Harris managed and signed into law on August 
16, 2022.
    Through the IRA, we legislated brought changes to Medicare 
prescription drugs coverage and specific changes to Medicaid, 
the State Children's Health Insurance Coverage Program, CHIP, 
and private health insurance. It requires Secretary Becerra of 
Health and Human Services to negotiate prices for certain 
prescription drugs covered under Medicare, Part B, physician-
administered drugs, and part D, retail prescription drugs.
    By law, he is required to negotiate maximum fair prices 
with 10 different drug producers for 2026 and increase to 15 
drugs for 2027 and 2028, and 20 drugs for 2029 and each 
following year. It is important that Medicare continue to 
negotiate low prices on behalf of the American people.
    Historically, negotiating prices will not limit companies' 
innovation and development of better medications and cures for 
the American people. The Inflation Reduction Act through the 
leadership of President Biden, Vice-President Harris, and 
Democrats in Congress took on Big Pharma and won a decade long 
battle to lower the cost for millions of seniors with new 
benefits that cap a $35 monthly out-of-pocket cost for insulin 
for 4 million Americans on Medicare who use it, three singles 
and other essential vaccinations, $2,000 out-of-pocket caps on 
prescriptions drugs to get it in 2025. That would save 19 
million Americans an average of $400 each year in protections 
from drug company price hikes.
    Additionally, the IRA companies now must pay Medicare or 
rebate if their prices rise faster than inflation. From 2019 to 
2020, half of all drugs covered by Medicare had prices rise 
faster. In the State of Illinois, 59,718 Illinoisans on 
Medicare who use insulin are now saving on average $519 
annually, thanks to the $35 per month insulin cap. 275,956 
Illinoisans are saving an average of $542 on monthly insurance 
premiums. For the State of Illinois, 597,880 Illinoisans are 
saving an average of $432.70 thanks to the inflation reduction 
tax, $2,000 annual out of pocket cost cap effective in 2025.
    I thank you, Mr. Chairman, for this hearing, and yield back 
the balance of my time.
    Chair Durbin. Thanks, Congressman Davis. Appreciate your 
attendance and your testimony. I know you all been wondering, 
I've just put on the record, I had a bowl of cereal this 
morning for breakfast. Before I poured the milk on the cereal. 
I checked the expiration date on the product and it was okay.
    Why is there an expiration date on dairy products? The next 
witness is responsible for it. She led the consumer effort to 
put expiration dates on dairy products as a mom and as an 
activist, and led her to a career in government. She is the 
ultimate voice in our delegation when it comes to consumer 
protection, and it's my honor to recognize my colleague, 
Congresswoman Schakowsky.

               STATEMENT OF HON. JAN SCHAKOWSKY, 
      UNITED STATES REPRESENTATIVE (IL-09), WASHINGTON, DC

    Representative Schakowsky. Well, thank you so much, Senator 
Durbin, and for having this hearing today. It's so incredibly 
important.
    I agree with everything that you said and what my colleague 
has said, but it's never said enough. And I want to say that in 
2020, 5 of the largest pharmaceutical companies made in 
profits, $80 billion. This is larger than any other company in 
the United States of America, Big Tech, or any other 
organization. They made more money.
    And yet, Americans are paying twice to three times as much 
for pharmaceuticals, the exact same pharmaceuticals that are 
available around the world. I mean, I think that the American 
consumer is really viewed as kind of a chump by the 
pharmaceutical industry. I am very, very concerned about the 
kinds of activities that Big Pharma has done to make sure that 
they protect their own profits.
    We saw during the pandemic that Big Pharma refused to let 
countries around the world develop their own pharmaceuticals 
for the Covid vaccine. They said, no, we want to make sure that 
you can't get any of the information in order to be able to 
produce your own. So, I think that the fact that many people 
died around the world, that the pharmaceutical companies have 
been responsible for that.
    We also know that when it comes to what--that we are seeing 
that the pharmaceutical companies have gone to the a number of 
the hospitals and changed the rules around 340B and made it 
harder for the hospitals to be able to make sure when there are 
low income patients and they're trying to provide to them, the 
pharmaceutical companies had changed some of the rules. And 
maybe we'll hear from some of our experts about that.
    I've also been very concerned about the role that the 
pharmaceutical companies have played to help to raise the 
prices. And you heard and you mentioned about the Affordable--
not the Affordable Care Act, but about the what the Biden 
Administration has done, what Kamala Harris has done to make 
sure that we were able to provide in the Inflation Reduction 
Act to lower the cost, to negotiate the cost of prescription 
drugs to lower them that had been done on 10 drugs. And we want 
to see those prices go down.
    And I assure you that the pharmaceutical companies have not 
been happy about doing that. That we have made insulin so 
available to Americans at $35 a month. You know, that insulin 
costs about a buck to make. And yet, we have seen in the past 
hundreds of dollars being charged by the pharmaceutical 
companies.
    Unfortunately, these benefits have only gone to people that 
are getting Medicare right now. And I know that the 
administration, our Democratic administration has said they 
want it applied to all Americans. So we can make serious 
progress, and we should, and we need to, and we need to hold 
accountable Big Pharma.
    I want to say also that I have offered legislation that I 
hope will pass in the in the next session that will allow 
people to import from certain countries like Canada to be able 
to have lower cost drugs, and to import them into the United 
States of America. And I also am introducing legislation that 
would allow the Department of Health and Human Services to be 
able to create more affordable drugs by manufacturing those 
drugs.
    So, we should be not just handing over patents to the Big 
Pharma companies to do what they want with us as Americans. And 
I am looking forward in the next session of Congress, being the 
optimist that I am, that we are going to be changing some of 
those rules and practices by Big Pharma, and that we are going 
to be able to get all Americans to be able to afford the drugs 
that they need for their lives and deserve.
    Let me just say one more thing. I was at a drugstore where 
a woman before me was told by the pharmacist how much she had 
to pay. And very quickly she said, ``Well, I simply can't.'' 
And she walked away without the drugs that she needed. This is 
happening all across the country. It needs to stop.
    And with that, I yield back.
    Chairman Durbin. Thank you, Congresswoman, for all your 
work in this area. We believe in Illinois that every 
congressional delegation should have a physicist, and our 
delegation has one of those.
    And Congressman Bill Foster, you're next.

                STATEMENT OF HON. BILL FOSTER, 
      UNITED STATES REPRESENTATIVE (IL-11), WASHINGTON, DC

    Representative Foster. Well, good morning, and thank you 
Chair Durbin for inviting me to speak today.
    Over the past several years, I've heard from countless 
constituents who are struggling to afford the ever-rising cost 
of prescription drugs. And all too often this means choosing 
between purchasing a critical medication, or paying for rent, 
or groceries. As one of the richest nations in the world, no 
American family should have to make a choice like that. And I 
was proud that the House and Senate worked together and make 
real progress on this problem with the Inflation Reduction Act 
in 2022.
    Starting in 2025, just a few weeks away, the Medicare Part 
D will not have to pay more than $2,000 annually toward their 
prescription drugs. Seniors with diabetes are already getting 
much needed insulin for just $35 a month, and Medicare will 
soon begin using negotiated drug prices with pharmaceutical 
companies to help bring those costs down further. However, 
there is still a lot of work to be done here, especially for 
Americans who are too young for Medicare.
    You know, insulin was discovered at a university laboratory 
more than a century ago, and the scientists who made that 
discovery refused to put their names on the patent, remarking 
that, ``Insulin belongs to the world.'' And now, we find people 
still unable to afford it despite the low production cost. So 
more than a century later, there's a lot of work to be done 
here.
    But as we think about prescription drug pricing, there's an 
important balance that we must strike. New innovative drugs 
must be affordable for patients who need them, but we also need 
sufficient financial incentives for pharmaceutical companies to 
invest in developing new drugs. Research that, you know, often 
fails to produce anything marketable.
    Now, with taxpayer-funded NIH paying much of the earliest 
stage and riskiest research in recent years, some of this 
burden has been lifted. But we still must be careful not to go 
too far in the other direction and potentially halt the 
scientific progress toward a variety of illnesses.
    As we all know, the presence of competition, especially 
from off-patent, generic versions of a given drug, are one of 
the most reliable ways to keep drug prices reasonable. An 
important example of this is the worldwide race to develop 
inexpensive oral versions of GLP-1 receptor agonists, known to 
the public as Ozempic and Wegovy.
    You know, if you're pre-diabetic and you take these drugs, 
you will pretty much never become diabetic. You will lose a lot 
of weight, your blood pressure will go down, and when 
competition drives down the price anywhere near the production 
cost of under $100 a day though, then the world will be a 
better place. And the healthcare cost structure in this country 
will be transformed because one-third of all our healthcare 
costs are diabetes now. But for now, millions of Americans are 
unable to access these life-altering medications because of 
cost. But despite that, the cost in other countries is 10 times 
lower than it is in our country.
    I also appreciate the Biden Administration that they're 
taking a close look at some of these, and in some cases, 
cracking down on potential anti-competitive abuses within the 
patent system that prevent or delay generic entry. Practices 
such as evergreening, where a pharmaceutical company makes a 
slight tweak through a drug to extend its patent. Or pay for 
delay, where a company pays a generic brand to delay their 
entry into the market.
    That puts a risk at that careful balance within our patent 
system, and Congress must support efforts to ensure our patent 
system is operating as intended
    And finally, hand in hand with affordability, prescription 
drugs must also be accessible to American families. Earlier 
this month, there were troubling reports from the New York 
Times that the pharmacy benefit managers, or PBMs, were 
systematically underpaying small independent pharmacies for 
patient's prescriptions.
    The goal, the Times alleged, was to run these pharmacies, 
which compete with the PBMs in-house pharmacies out of business 
with techniques like cherry-picking the most profitable drugs 
for their in-house pharmacies, and leaving the unprofitable 
drugs for struggling local pharmacies. In many cases, these 
alleged efforts were successful, leaving many Americans, 
especially those in rural areas, without a local pharmacy. But 
I have heard exactly the same thing from local pharmacies in 
Aurora and in Naperville.
    Congress must study this issue closely and to ensure that 
PBMs are not engaging in anti-competitive behavior, which could 
impact both the accessibility of pharmacies and the prices of 
drugs themselves. So, I thank the Senate Judiciary Committee 
for its hard work on preventing anti-competitive behavior in 
the healthcare space, and I hope the Committee will consider 
the two issues I've laid out today. Thank you, and I yield 
back.
    Chair Durbin. Thanks, Congressman Foster. As I mentioned at 
the outset, we're recognizing Members in order of seniority, 
and now recognize Representative Krishnamoorthi.

            STATEMENT OF HON. RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI, 
      UNITED STATES REPRESENTATIVE (IL-08), WASHINGTON, DC

    Representative Krishnamoorthi. Good morning, and thank you 
Senator Durbin for hosting this hearing focus on rising 
prescription drug prices.
    Prescription drugs exist in one of the few industries that 
do not operate along the normal rules of supply and demand. The 
blunt truth is that if you or a loved one needs medicine, 
you'll pay almost any price to obtain it. This ability to 
squeeze every dime from those who need medicine, not only 
fatten corporations' bottom lines, but also leads to the 
creation of exploitive middlemen as surely as sharks are drawn 
to blood.
    One of these middlemen are pharmacy benefit managers, or 
PBMs, for short. PBMs harm Americans in two ways. One, PBMs are 
helping to fuel ever rising drug prices, and then two, PBMs are 
killing independent pharmacies, as Congressman Foster alluded 
to just a second ago.
    First, I want to get into drug prices. On behalf of 
healthcare payers like employers and insurers, PBMs negotiate 
with drug companies, acting as middlemen to create formulary 
lists that determine which medicines patients can be 
prescribed. To maximize their own profits, PBMs have 
implemented a so-called rebate system that requires drug 
companies to provide rebates based on their drugs list prices. 
In exchange, PBMs include these drugs on their formularies. The 
higher the prices, the higher the rebates, and the more likely 
that a company's drug gets on the PBMs formulary.
    The glaring problem, however, is that PBMs do not appear to 
be passing along the rebates to their clients, namely the 
payers, and ultimately, the consumers. Meanwhile, PBMs pursuit 
of ever higher rebates drives up what they're linked to, namely 
drug prices. This is not some conspiracy theory. Congress, 
numerous States, investigative journalists, and even the FTC, 
as you can see from these various headlines, from even Attorney 
General Raul, who's been asking the supreme court and other 
agencies to look into this issue, have now illustrated that 
this is a commonly understood problem.
    [Poster is displayed.]
    The second way in which PBMs undermine healthcare is by 
killing off independent pharmacies. How? Not only do PBMs act 
as the middlemen between payers and drug companies, they also 
act as the middlemen between payers and the pharmacies. And 
they do it in the following way. First, pharmacies buy drugs 
from wholesalers in anticipation of reasonable reimbursements 
from the PBM after the drugs are dispensed. However, the PBMs 
then set these artificially low reimbursement rates.
    PBMs have engaged in complex schemes to either grossly 
underpay pharmacies for the drugs they dispense, or by 
instituting clawbacks and what are called DIR fees, direct and 
indirect remuneration fees. These DIR fees mean that PBMs 
retroactively clawback money from pharmacies for drugs they 
have already dispensed in the past.
    CMS found that DIR fees exploded by, and this is not a 
typo, 107,400 percent over the last decade. PBMs appear to be 
using any and every trick in the book to continue to make 
enormous profits and kill off independent pharmacies. The 
result of these clawbacks and underpayments has been stark. The 
National Association of Community Pharmacists report that 
almost every day a pharmacy is permanently closing its doors. 
At this point, 73 percent of counties in Illinois are now a 
pharmacy desert, meaning there is not a pharmacy located in 
that county.
    [Poster is displayed.]
    CMS acted earlier this year to block the most egregious DIR 
abuses, but PBMs are still putting relentless pressure on 
independent pharmacies. Why? Well, surprise, surprise, the 
largest PBMs parent companies run their own competing 
pharmacies, which now dispense a whopping 80 percent of all 
prescriptions in the country. PBMs have the power to kill off 
their competition, and they are doing just that.
    The result of PBM control and manipulation is that drug 
prices are going up, pharmacy closures are going up. And guess 
what? PBM profits are going way up. PBMs, I would suggest, 
stand for pretty big markups. That's what PBMs are at this 
point.
    However, there's some cause for hope. Elected officials on 
the State and Federal level from both parties, including in 
Illinois, agree that PBMs need to be reined in. For instance, 
we should pass as soon as possible much needed PBM reform 
legislation like the bipartisan Pharmacist Fight Back Act. This 
bill is the most comprehensive approach to PBM reform yet, and 
I believe meaningful reform of the PBM industry is within our 
grasp, even within this Congress.
    Senator Durbin, thank you again for your yeoman's work to 
lower prescription drug costs and for holding this hearing. I'm 
honored to have been included. Thank you.
    Chair Durbin. Thank you very much, Congressman. I'll just 
emphatically add, if you've been to a Walgreens drug store 
lately to fill a prescription; you know what you're going to 
find? A line of 12 people in front of you. I see some heads 
nodding in the audience.
    And you think to yourself, they're closing drug stores, 
they're want to close some drug stores. And yet, the demand is 
so high, they can't fill the request to customers who walk into 
their stores. Something's wrong with this picture, and I think 
it's PBMs. They're stepping in and complicating this market 
relationship. And the consumer will pay the ultimate price. So, 
I thank you for raising that issue.
    Mr. Krishnamoorthi. Yes, sir.
    Chairman Durbin. Next, is Congressman Sean Casten.

                STATEMENT OF HON. SEAN CASTEN, 
      UNITED STATES REPRESENTATIVE (IL-06), WASHINGTON, DC

    Representative Casten. Thank you, Chair Durbin for doing 
this, and I'm honored to be invited.
    So, a couple years ago, I had the opportunity to meet with 
some of the doctors and administrators at the Mayo Clinic, and 
was chatting with them about how they measure success as one of 
the more successful health clinics in our country. And they 
said their metric is this mortality amenable to healthcare. How 
many people die every year, but for their access to healthcare?
    Now, maybe that's because there was an oversight in the 
part of the hospital. Maybe there weren't beds available. Maybe 
they couldn't get the right specialist. Maybe they didn't have 
insurance. All of these people are people who should have 
lived. And they measure that success for their hospital. They 
measure it for their State, they compare to others.
    You can look at it countrywide. And in the United States, 
last year, a little over a million people died, should have 
lived but for shortcomings in our healthcare system. That's 336 
per 100,000, if you want to normalize it on a per capita basis. 
And to put that in perspective, that is more than twice the 
rate of the Swiss, the Japanese, the Australians, the Swedish, 
the Netherlands, the French.
    I could go on and on down that list. We have worse health 
outcomes than virtually every other industrialized country in 
the world. And on top of that, we pay more for healthcare than 
any other country in the world. About $13,000 per capita per 
year. $4 trillion. So, if we were paying a lot in getting great 
outcomes, okay, that's a tradeoff. As it is, we're paying a lot 
and not getting robust outcomes.
    If we step that back, the fastest growing cost in the 
healthcare system is pharmaceuticals in 2004, 1 percent 
expenses were pharmaceuticals. Last year was 14 percent. It's 
growing faster than anything else in the system. I think 
several folks have talked about why it is that we have said 
that Medicare shouldn't negotiate pharmaceutical prices, and 
that's a rich conversation. But we should point out that it is 
insane. If you were to tell the American people when you go buy 
a car, you can't negotiate with the dealer. When you buy a 
house, you can't negotiate. None of us would call that a 
competitive market. And somehow, we've got this idea in our 
head that, well, competitive markets will fix this problem. 
They haven't. They failed.
    In 2019, the House passed H.R. 3 to fix that problem; to 
not only give Medicare the right to negotiate, but compel them 
to negotiate. And I don't want to be partisan, but if we're 
talking about epidemiology, we need to use all the statistics. 
Every single Democrat voted for that bill, and only two 
Republicans in the House voted for it. That bill would've given 
Medicare the ability to negotiate prices, would've capped out-
of-pocket costs, would've added dental, vision, hearing to 
Medicare, and a number of other reforms as well. As you know 
well, Chair Durbin, the Senate was led by Republicans at that 
time and chose not even to bring it up for a vote.
    Fast forward 2 years later, and as you mentioned in the 
Inflation Reduction Act, we then passed several of those 
provisions in the bill, all of them. But now, we've got 10 
drugs that are available for Medicare to negotiate, which will 
expand next year, out-of-pocket costs are capped to $2,000, $35 
price on insulin, expansions on ACA subsidies.
    Not a single Republican voted for any of those. I don't 
want that to be partisan, but it is the reality that we would 
not have made that progress but for who was in power in 2022. 
The result of that just in my district in Illinois, 6, is that 
there are now 23,000 more people who have health insurance, who 
are saving an average of $1,000 a year. Just in one 
congressional district, 4,300 people who are saving $490 a year 
on average on insulin. 24,000 people who are saving on average 
$533 on prescription drugs. And that's going to go to 34,000 
next year.
    Illinois wide, I think as Congressman Davis pointed out, 
the numbers I've seen is that folks are going to save over $120 
million, almost 500,000 people in Illinois. And oh, by the way, 
that's a $600 a year savings in Medicare, which means that our 
fiscal health as a nation is better, and people are healthier, 
and people are saving out-of-pocket costs.
    Now, having watched the Bears game this weekend, the last 
thing I want to do is to celebrate before the game is over. And 
make no mistake, this game is not over. We have made terrific 
progress, and maybe it's appropriate to do a shimmy in the end 
zone after the referee puts his hands up. But we haven't won 
the game yet. And I hope that as we move forward in this 
Congress, we can simply recognize that there is not a business 
in the world that comes to Washington and says, ``I wish my 
industry was more competitive.''
    [Laugher.]
    It is crazy that we had to give Medicare the right to 
negotiate. We've gotten that to 10 drugs, we'll expand it next 
year. They should have the right to negotiate all drugs. As 
Congressman Krishnamoorthi has pointed out, pharmacy benefit 
managers are not designed to create competition. Quite to the 
contrary, it appears that they're getting in the way of 
competition.
    We need to expand the number of covered drugs. We need to 
make sure that these benefits cover the whole system. And I 
hope someday, everybody who has the privilege to serve and to 
have public service recognizes that you either are or someday, 
God willing, will be a senior citizen. Your constituents 
include large numbers of senior citizens. One hundred percent 
of Americans I've polled this would like to be healthier, would 
like to spend less on drugs, and would like to see our deficits 
fall. And I hope that that leads us all to make this a 
robustly, bipartisan commitment to competition markets and a 
healthier population in the very near future. Thank you, and I 
yield back.
    Chair Durbin. Thank you very much. And if I'm not mistaken, 
the report in the Heritage Foundation Project 2025 would've 
eliminated the power that we have given to our Government to 
negotiate lower drug prices. So, in fact, this issue is on the 
ballot next Tuesday for voters to decide whether to move 
forward with this or not.
    Congressman Garcia.

          STATEMENT OF HON. JESUS G. ``CHUY'' GARCIA, 
      UNITED STATES REPRESENTATIVE (IL-04), WASHINGTON, DC

    Representative Garcia. Thank you, Chairman Durbin, for 
convening this most important hearing on this critical topic. 
There's no reason that the wealthiest country in the history of 
the world at a time when we're confronting the consequences of 
health disparities that were laid bare by the Covid pandemic, 
that patients still cannot afford the everyday medications that 
they need to live a healthy, dignified life.
    Under the Biden Administration, Congress has taken 
unprecedented steps in the right direction to lower the sky-
high cost of prescription drugs. I'm proud to have participated 
in a progressive push to ensure that prescription drug costs 
were addressed in the Inflation Reduction Act. The bill, of 
course, has capped, as we've discussed, a $35 per month for 
seniors, and finally allowed Medicare to begin negotiating for 
other lower drug prices.
    Prices for the first 10 drugs negotiated were released this 
summer. When they go into effect in 2026, they will start 
saving customers up to 76 percent, hundreds in cases, thousands 
of dollars per month. The new prices are expected to save 1.5 
billion in 2026 alone. But despite remarkable progress, these 
gains only address a fraction of the enormous need for lower 
drug prices for patients not covered by these programs.
    For example, I represent a congressional district that is 
over 65 percent Latinos, and Latinos are nearly twice as likely 
to have diabetes than non-Hispanic whites. So, while the 
insulin cap is a lifesaver for people who are covered, everyone 
else, even those with private insurance does not cover the 
insulin. And they're still paying hundreds.
    That's a policy issue, and one created when Republicans 
blocked a broader insulin cap from the final version of the 
Inflation Reduction Act. That comes on top of the fact that 
many of my neighbors already confronting health inequities like 
under insurance, food deserts, and a lack of nearby health 
facilities that contribute to the overall well-being.
    So, for the tens of thousands of individuals in my 
district, approximately 94,000 people are without insurance 
because they're immigrants, or undocumented, or otherwise 
ineligible. We've got to find a new approach. And while the 
impacts of the targeted drug pricing legislation we've passed 
demonstrates how far we've come, the remaining gaps show us 
where we need to go toward comprehensive legislation that 
addresses anti-competitive behavior by pharmaceutical companies 
at its root.
    That's why I'm proud to be here at this Senate Judiciary 
hearing. And as a new Member of the House Judiciary Committee, 
it's an important issue that we've got to tackle together. We 
must confront practices that corporations use to prolong market 
exclusivity for profitable drugs. We must call out the billion 
spent on lobbying, campaign contributions and stock buybacks by 
Big Pharma companies that simultaneously claim they cannot 
afford to lower drug prices. It's price gouging, plain and 
simple, and it's got to stop.
    So, again, I deeply appreciate the opportunity to be here 
today with my colleagues, and I look forward to working 
together with everyone here, panelists, and my colleagues in 
the House and Senate to work toward a common goal of affordable 
healthcare for all. Thank you.
    Chair Durbin. Thank you, Congressman. Congresswoman 
Ramirez.

              STATEMENT OF HON. DELIA C. RAMIREZ, 
      UNITED STATES REPRESENTATIVE (IL-03), WASHINGTON, DC

    Representative Ramirez. Thank you, Chair Durbin for holding 
this important hearing. I'm really honored to join my 
colleagues here in the House and listen to expert testimony 
around an issue that deeply affects my constituents and the 
words of my father, Luis Ramirez, ``la medicina esta muy 
cara,'' The cost of prescription drugs in America is too darn, 
we'll say, high.
    Too often, I hear from my constituents talk about the 
impossible choices they have to make between paying rent, 
paying for groceries, or affording their inhalers. And in our 
Nation, a person with asthma pays about $1,830 for year, just 
for lifesaving emergency. And I'm grateful to have been part of 
the movement in Illinois to cap the prices of prescription 
drugs. I was in the Illinois State legislature when SB 667 came 
to the floor to cap the price of insulin. And I had the honor 
to be a co-sponsor and vote yes on that bill.
    And of course, I'm grateful for the historic legislation 
passed by Democrats to cap the price of insulin and allow 
Medicare to negotiate the price of prescription drugs. The 
folks we're here because we know we have to do so much more. 
Too many lives are on the line. You've heard it from my 
colleagues today, our family, our friends, our neighbors, our 
constituents, they depend on us to continue to advance efforts 
that reduce the cost of and increase access to medication.
    You see, in Illinois, my District 3, is comprised of 
working people who depend on these efforts. Twelve percent of 
my residents have income below the poverty line. Over 82,000 
people have no healthcare insurance coverage whatsoever. Two 
hundred and thirty three thousand of them, rely on public 
programs for coverage, and multiple communities qualify as 
medically underserved. But when the unchecked corporate greed 
of pharmaceutical companies meets the lack of proper regulation 
of prescription drug prices, families in my district and all of 
our districts suffer.
    In my district, families have found relief in community 
health centers like Erie Humboldt Park Health Center, that 
provide essential comprehensive healthcare and regulatory 
programs created by Congress like the 340B drug discount 
program where healthcare providers that serve low income and 
uninsured communities are able to purchase drugs at a lower 
cost and help patients afford their medication, their insulin, 
their inhalers, their blood pressure medication, their Narcan, 
their Prep, and more.
    In addition to helping patients afford their medicine, we 
know that community health centers provide the high-quality 
comprehensive care patients with chronic conditions needs to 
thrive. Programs like the 340B Drug Discount Program and high 
rates of utilization of community health centers across 
Illinois, show us how critical it is for Congress to take 
action to address how unregulated, greed-driven drug pricing 
holds our families back from realizing a better healthcare 
outcome, and fuller and more vibrant lives.
    And look, the truth is that the prescription drug pricing 
system is intentionally complicated and confusing. That's why 
we need all those charts, Raja. It's a predatory practice, and 
everyday Americans struggle to understand what is covered and 
how much it's going to cost them. It's clear we have both the 
opportunity and the responsibility to address this broken 
system that regularly puts profits over people's well-being.
    And for the last 2 years, I've had the privilege to serve 
on the Veteran Affairs Committee, where I've seen firsthand the 
potential of models that prioritize coverage and lifesaving 
medications for our communities. And as I work with my 
colleagues in the Committee to ensure the proper implementation 
of the historic PACT Act, it is clear that we have the models, 
we have the tools, and we have the capacities to ensure that 
every family has access to care and the assistance they need.
    But we have to continue to advocate for Medicare for all, 
to provide comprehensive benefits to every person in the United 
States, including primary care, including vision, dental, 
prescription drugs, and more. We have to bring the full power 
of the Federal Government regulation, legislation, and the word 
you've heard here for my colleagues over and over, negotiation, 
to fight for our constituents so they never have to forego 
necessary prescriptions.
    Today, I look forward to listening to experts about the 
crucial steps we can take together to ensure that everyone, 
regardless of ZIP Code, regardless of migration status, have 
access to the medicine they need, and the care that they 
deserve, and the help that we know our Nation can provide.
    Thank you, Senator Durbin, for this opportunity and for 
this hearing.
    Chair Durbin. Thank you, Congresswoman.
    Each morning in the Senate, the Republican leader and 
Democratic leader make statements, and I am usually there to 
hear them. One recent statement made by the Republican leader, 
Mitch McConnell, was in reference to the negotiation of drug 
prices. He referred to it as, ``Pharmaceutical socialism,'' 
pharmaceutical socialism.
    I'm glad you brought up the fact that the Veterans 
Administration has been negotiating drug prices for decades, 
saving the taxpayers a lot of money in the process, and making 
sure that the men and women who served our country still 
receive the very best when it comes to medical assistance. I 
don't think that's socialism. I think that's basic to America 
and our democracy. I thank you for raising that issue.
    I want to thank my colleagues for joining me this morning. 
All of your contributions were very positive and will be part 
of the record. And in the process of changing out the panel to 
the second panel, I want to thank healthcare leaders from 
around our State who had joined us here at this hearing, 
including Illinois Public Health Director, Dr. Sameer Vohra, 
State Senator Mike Simmons, a former intern in Durbin's Office, 
and representatives from hospitals and health centers; Lawndale 
Christian Access, PCC, ATT, AHS, Family, Rush, Sinai, and Lurie 
Children's, along with the Illinois pharmacists who've joined 
us as well.
    So, I thank my colleagues for joining me this morning, and 
you are now officially dismissed. If the five members of the 
second panel would approach the table, I'd appreciate it very 
much, and remain standing for a moment. If you would please 
raise your right hand. Do you affirm the testimony you're about 
to give before the Committee will be the truth, the whole 
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
    [Witnesses are sworn in.]
    Chair Durbin. Let the record indicate that the five 
witnesses, luckily, all answered in the affirmative. I'd like 
to introduce them. Our first witness is Kwame Raoul, the 42d 
Attorney General of the State of Illinois. He served as 
Illinois Chief Legal and Law Enforcement Officer since 2019. 
Assumed this role after serving for 14 years as an Illinois 
State Senator. Previously served as a prosecutor in Cook County 
and staff attorney for City Colleges of Chicago.
    We're also joined by Professor Rachel Sachs, a professor of 
law at Washington University in St. Louis, where she also 
serves as a faculty scholar with the Institute for Public 
Health, and Faculty Fellow with Cordell Institute for Policy in 
Medicine & Law, and much more, I know from earlier 
conversation.
    Our next witness is Dr. Anthony Douglas, general surgery 
and resident physician at the University of Chicago Medicine, 
where he focuses on trauma and acute care surgery. Also, the 
founder and first fellow of the University of Chicago Surgical 
Advocacy Fellowship. Thank you for being here.
    Next, joined by Michael Sandsmark. Mr. Sandsmark is the 
Director of Pharmacy at Iroquois Memorial Hospital, and 
resident home in Watseka. In 2023, Iroquois Memorial Hospital 
was designated as a critical access hospital by the Centers for 
Medicare and Medicaid Services, recognizing the key role that 
this facility plays in providing healthcare in that part of the 
State.
    Our final witness is Deanna Brant, a retired executive 
assistant from Countryside, Illinois. She's a Medicare 
beneficiary, and I look forward to hearing her perspective on 
what it's like to cope with these high cost of prescription 
drugs. Thank you for joining us.
    I'm going to let the Attorney General kick it off. Take it 
away.

                STATEMENT OF HON. KWAME RAOUL, 
        ATTORNEY GENERAL, STATE OF ILLINOIS, CHICAGO, IL

    Mr. Raoul. Good morning, and thank you Mr. Chairman. Thank 
you for inviting me to speak on this important issue. As 
attorney general, I take seriously my office's fundamental 
function to protect the health and wellness of Illinois 
citizens. High prescription drug prices harm Illinois patients 
by obstructing access to treatments needed to sustain their 
health and well-being. Without access to affordable 
medications, medical conditions worsen, patients' overall 
health, outcomes decline in some patient, and for some patients 
it can be fatal.
    According to U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, 
from January, 2022 to January 2023, more than 4,200 drug 
products had price increases, of which 46 percent were larger 
than the rate of inflation. With these ever increasing costs, 
patients may stop taking their medications as prescribed or 
eventually abandoned treatment all altogether.
    In addition to the direct burden on Illinois consumers, 
high prescription costs also impact the State at large because 
they are significant payers of healthcare services. State 
dollars pay for prescription drug use by State employees and 
their dependents, the use by people housed by the Department of 
Corrections, and Medicaid beneficiaries. In Illinois, about 3.9 
million people are enrolled in Medicaid.
    Pharmaceutical companies and pharmacy benefit managers, 
known as PBMs, must be more transparent about their pricing and 
business practices. They should also be held accountable for 
unnecessary and overly burdensome increases in prices for 
prescription drugs. As mentioned earlier by several speakers, 
the original purpose of PBMs was to negotiate on behalf of 
employers, government payers, and consumers, to minimize 
overpricing by manufacturers. Instead, PBMs have made the 
pharmaceutical market more opaque, and have driven up 
prescription drug pricing.
    My office and those of other state attorneys general have 
worked to hold PBMs accountable. However, before expounding on 
the actions my office has taken, I do have to mention that the 
scope of what I can share and the answer is limited. Due to 
ongoing litigation and investigations that are subject to 
confidentiality agreements, I'm restricted from commenting on 
certain pending matters.
    I want to emphasize that I have used multiple tools 
available to go after bad actors in the industry. We have used 
our authority under the Illinois Consumer Fraud and Deceptive 
Business Practices Act, the Illinois Voice False Claims Act, 
and antitrust laws to target the prescription affordability 
crisis from every possible angle.
    PBMs profit from fees charged to market participants and by 
reimbursing pharmacies less than PBMs are paid for dispersing 
medications. We believe PBMs have engaged in practices that 
drive up their own profits at the expense of patients and the 
State actors who have contracted with them.
    My office has uncovered practices that have allowed PBMs to 
largely overcharge State agencies through their contracts with 
the State, and I've been successful in bringing money back to 
Illinois through these investigations. For example, as a PBM 
for Illinois Medicaid program, Centene subsidiaries delivered 
pharmacy benefits to Illinois State agencies such as the 
Illinois Department of Healthcare and Family Services.
    We initiated an investigation that determined that 
Centene's subsidiaries allegedly submitted inaccurate 
pharmaceutical reimbursement requests that failed to accurately 
disclose the cost of pharmacy services. In addition, requests 
for reimbursement did not disclose available pharmaceutical 
discounts in the improperly inflated dispensing fees. On 
September 27, 2021, my office on behalf of the State executed a 
settlement agreement that required Centene to pay the State 
over $56 million.
    As recently as June 24, this year, my office recovered $45 
million to the State through a settlement agreement with CVS 
after an investigation under the False Claims Act, showed that 
CVS as a PBM contracted with the State improperly failed to 
pass rebates back to the State from April 1, 2020 through 
September 30, 2023.
    PBMs have largely been unregulated, and as recently as 
earlier this year, I joined a bipartisan group of AGs calling 
on Congress to reform the way PBMs do business. Federal 
legislation is needed to curb undue price increases, and to 
increase transparency around the way PBMs operate and set 
prices. In the absence of Federal regulations, States have 
passed their own regulations, which have been met with pushback 
from the industry. There's a petition pending in front of the 
U.S. Supreme Court to determine whether Federal laws preempt 
State laws that regulate PBMs.
    This past summer, my office joined a bipartisan coalition 
States urging the court to review a decision from the 10th 
Circuit holding that Federal laws preempt Oklahoma laws 
regulating PBMs. The coalition seeks to protect consumers by 
assuring that States can regulate PBMs as part of our efforts 
to address access and affordability to prescription drugs.
    In December 2022, my office originally filed a complaint in 
Cook County against PBMs and manufacturers alleging violations 
of our Consumer Fraud And Deceptive Practices Act for engaging 
in an insulin pricing scheme. Our case is now in a MDL pending 
before the District Court in New Jersey. The complaint alleges 
that insulin pricing scheme has caused the cost of insulin to 
skyrocket. To be clear, insulin costs these manufacturers less 
than $2 per unit to produce, yet prices can range from $300 to 
$700 per unit.
    Our antitrust bureau investigates the conduct of brand drug 
manufacturers who engage in illegal activities to delay entry 
of generic competitors, which drives up prices for consumers. 
Such activities could include agreements with generic companies 
to delay entry into market, product hopping schemes, and 
exclusive contracting schemes, which prevent drug companies 
from accessing the components needed to manufacture these 
drugs.
    Our bureau is working with nearly all other States on 
litigation against the generic drug in industry for engaging in 
price fixing conspiracies involving hundreds of generic drugs. 
The State coalition has already settled with several 
individuals and two corporations who have agreed to provide 
monetary relief and substantial cooperation.
    In 2023, my bureau in partnership with the FDC, and several 
other State AGs, was able to secure a settlement agreement with 
Amgen, one of the world's largest biopharmaceutical drug 
companies to address the potential competitive harm that would 
result from Amgen's purchase of Horizon Therapeutics. The 
settlement resolved the potential anti-competitive acquisition 
and prevents Amgen from engaging in anti-competitive actions to 
disadvantage any product that would compete with these drugs. 
The agreement requires Amgen to submit annual compliance 
reports and monitors in place to oversee compliance.
    Mr. Chairman, these are examples of how my office has 
worked to reign in the ongoing problem of prescription drug 
overpricing. They're not exhaustive, for examples. We will 
continue to do so. I'm thankful to the Committee for shining a 
light on these challenges, and I hope that we can collectively 
work on behalf of Illinois patients, employers, and the 
government payers to reduce the price of prescription drugs.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Raoul appears as a 
submission for the record.]
    Chair Durbin. Thanks, Attorney General. Professor Sachs.

   STATEMENT OF RACHEL E. SACHS, JD, MPH, PROFESSOR OF LAW, 
       WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY IN ST. LOUIS, ST. LOUIS, MO

    Professor Sachs. Chair Durbin, my name is Rachel Sachs, and 
I'm a professor of law at Washington University in St. Louis, 
where my research focuses on innovation and access to new 
pharmaceuticals. Thank you for the opportunity to testify about 
the role of competition in making prescription drugs more 
affordable for patients, and how this Committee might address 
these issues. All views I offer today are my own.
    Over the last 40 years, Congress has focused on competition 
from lower cost, generic, and biosimilar versions of branded 
prescription drugs as the primary tool to bring down prices and 
promote access to affordable medications. 1984 saw the passage 
of the Hatch-Waxman Act, which created a path to FDA approval 
for generic versions of small molecule drugs. When combined 
with State laws allowing pharmacists to substitute generics for 
branded drugs, Hatch-Waxman has been largely successful.
    Today, generic drugs quickly take over 80 percent of the 
branded drugs market share and multiple generics can drive down 
prices by over 90 percent. Of course, ongoing focus on branded 
drug manufacturers attempts to delay generic competition 
matters. And I'll return to that.
    The Biologics Price Competition and Innovation Act as 
enacted in the Affordable Care Act in 2010, created a path to 
approval for biosimilar versions of biological products. To 
date, this law has been less successful at creating competition 
than has Hatch-Waxman. Just 61 biosimilars for 17 biologics 
have been approved to date, and many have not yet been 
marketed. Even marketed biosimilars struggle to gain market 
share, and have driven down prices by a smaller amount.
    The relative weakness of biosimilar competition is 
traceable to several factors. In my written testimony, for 
example, I refer to patent listing distinctions between the 
Orange and Purple Books, the interchangeable designation, and 
comparatively weak State substitution laws as legal drivers.
    The Inflation Reduction Act, or IRA, and its Medicare drug 
price negotiation program also looks to generic and biosimilar 
competition as the primary tool to drive down drug prices. 
Recognizing that Hatch-Waxman and the Biosimilars Act have not 
always succeeded in enabling generic and biosimilar entry only 
if such competition has not emerged, does the IRA envision a 
role from Medicare to negotiate the prices for drugs it 
purchases as a market participant.
    The IRA only permits a drug to qualify for negotiation 
after it has been FDA approved for many years, and a drug with 
an approved and marketed generic or biosimilar is not eligible 
for selection for negotiation. Hatch-Waxman and the Biosimilars 
Act aim to support approval of generics and biosimilars. This 
approval is necessary for competition, but is not sufficient to 
enable it.
    Take the biosimilars example. Even where a biosimilar is 
approved and marketed, it must be covered by insurers, 
physicians must prescribe it, and pharmacists must substitute 
it. Patents matter for creating competition at the approval 
stage, but legal changes must go beyond patent law to include 
insurance coverage, physician prescribing, and pharmacy 
substitution.
    This Committee ought to consider legislation to improve 
competition, but a full response will require support from 
other Committees with distinct jurisdictions. First, this 
Committee should continue to focus on the approval of generics 
and biosimilars where the PTO and patent law play key roles. 
This Committee has already taken up several bills responding to 
branded manufacturers efforts to discourage generic or 
biometry. The Federal Trade Commission's recent challenges to 
over 400 patents allegedly and properly listed in the Orange 
Book also fall into this category.
    Second; coverage. Many insurance coverage decisions are 
mediated through pharmacy benefit managers, or PBMs, about 
which we've heard already. PBMs have been criticized, including 
for the ways in which they sometimes appear to limit access to 
lower cost products. Both the Federal Trade Commission and 
several State attorneys general have sued the Nation's largest 
PBMs over their conduct, in the market for insulin in 
particular. This Committee should consider its role in PBM 
reform, including potentially supporting the commission's 
complaint.
    Third; prescription. This Committee might work 
collaboratively with others to encourage the prescribing of 
lower cost products. For example, experts have argued for 
reforming the Medicare Part B payment system, arguing that it 
encourages clinicians to choose higher priced products over 
lower priced ones.
    Fourth; substitution. State biosimilar substitution laws 
typically only permit substitution where the biosimilar is 
deemed interchangeable by FDA. Most approved biosimilars lack 
that designation. This Committee might support efforts to alter 
State biosimilar substitution laws, plus efforts by other 
Committees regarding the interchangeable designation as FDA has 
requested. This Committee should support competition to make 
prescription drugs more affordable for patients.
    Chair Durbin, I appreciate your focus on this important 
issue, and I look forward to answering your questions.
    [The prepared statement of Professor Sachs appears as a 
submission for the record.]
    Chair Durbin. Thank you very much. Dr. Douglas.

    STATEMENT OF ANTHONY D. DOUGLAS II, MD, GENERAL SURGERY 
   RESIDENT, UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO, CITIZEN ACTION ILLINOIS, 
                          CHICAGO, IL

    Dr. Douglas. Good morning. Thank you, Senator Durbin, and 
the Members of your Judiciary Committee for the opportunity to 
testify today. Also, for your investment in this important 
issue. My name is Dr. Anthony Douglas II, I'm a general surgery 
resident physician at the University of Chicago. I'm here on 
behalf of my patients, as well as Citizens Actions, Illinois, 
and my thoughts are my own.
    As physicians on the front lines, we have a pulse on how 
everyday Americans are affected by high out-of-pocket 
prescription costs. We make and carry out the plans for 
patients in the inpatient and outpatient settings. We perform 
the operations, and we guide Americans across this country to 
recovery. For physicians like myself, one of the most difficult 
conversations to have are those with patients over the phone 
when they are at the pharmaceutical counter.
    As I sit before you, I can hear the worry, the desperation 
and embarrassment of my patients from the CVS and Walgreens 
counter saying, ``Dr. Douglas, I cannot afford this 
medication.'' I remember the face of the woman with type 1 
diabetes who came to our emergency department with appendicitis 
who was not taking the insulin she was prescribed. When I asked 
her why, her answer was simple, ``I cannot afford it.'' Her 
surgery was delayed. I sat and watched her dangerously high 
blood sugars improve each day with angst, hoping she didn't 
have a complication as we waited.
    Senator Durbin, I have story after story of people 
balancing the cost of medications to sustain their livelihood, 
and the cost of their mortgages, utilities, childcare, and 
groceries. And they almost always choose the more pressing 
immediate needs over their medications.
    My father, who is in the audience today, was prescribed 
Jardiance for his type 2 diabetes. It cost him $660 a month to 
refill. He has since been switched to a more affordable but 
less effective medication after free samples from his physician 
ran out.
    In an Uber ride, Carol, a middle-aged woman, drove me to 
the airport after asking me what I did for a living. She 
divulged that she had a kidney transplant a week ago. I scolded 
her for not being at home recovering, and her response made me 
feel ashamed. She said she had no choice but to drive Uber 
because the cost of the drugs to keep her body from rejecting 
her brand-new kidney were too great.
    And I'd be remiss if I didn't share this story. I spoke at 
a retirees' meeting about a week ago. And a member of the 
audience came to tell me about his friend who was a former 
police officer, who developed a blood cancer and was depleting 
his family's financial reserves to pay for the medication to 
treat his blood cancer, and stopped taking the medication to 
let his disease run it's course in order for his family to have 
finances to survive.
    In our State of Illinois, a survey of adults revealed that 
one in four people split ration, or take sips of their 
medications to prolong needing a refill. That means 
approximately 20 Americans in this room right now are not 
taking their medications as they are prescribed because they 
must delay paying to refill the prescription. As a physician, I 
can tell you drugs do not work like that. Medication non-
adherence accounts for 25 percent of hospitalizations, and 
125,000 deaths a year.
    One of the significant drivers of how much our country 
spends on healthcare is inefficiency. The lack of prescription 
affordability leads Americans to visit the emergency 
department, or be admitted to the hospital for conditions that 
could be effectively controlled at home if they simply had 
access to the appropriate medications that is inefficient.
    In 2023, according to the U.S. Department of Health and 
Human Services, 4,200 drug prices had price increases, and 46 
percent of those increases were larger than the rate of 
inflation, as alluded to earlier. The average price increase 
was 15 percent, or about $590 per drug. The Inflation Reduction 
Act was a pivotal step toward addressing the rising cost of 
prescription drugs for Medicare Part D patients. The Act helped 
to reduce the price of a drug like Xarelto, a blood thinner 
that I prescribe almost daily from $517 to $197, a 62 percent 
cut.
    Other drug prices were cut between 38 to 79 percent. This 
and the annual drug spending cap for senior Americans will make 
medications more affordable and save lives. But in my 
experience, Medicare Part D enrollees are merely a fraction of 
the population that is suffering from the rising costs of 
prescription drugs. We cannot forget about the number of other 
vulnerable groups as well; the young and uninsured who 
unexpectedly develop an illness, the middle working class who 
develop chronic diseases, and whose employer-based or private 
insurance doesn't quite relieve the cost, ethnic minorities who 
are disproportionately uninsured, unemployed, living in 
poverty, and victims of health inequities. All of these 
populations are suffering.
    We spend hours as physicians filling out prior 
authorizations just to find out that even after insurance kicks 
in, the cost of a medication is still out of reach for some 
patients. We need additional intervention at the Federal level 
related to patent abuse, vice transparency, and PBM practices. 
The pharmaceutical industry threatens that regulation of drug 
pricing would would force them to remove drugs from the market, 
attempting to incite fear among Americans who are desperately 
in need of their medications.
    In reality, the pharmaceutical industry spends more on 
advertising in America than research and development. As a 
result, the citizens of these United States pay more on drug 
costs than any other developed country. Why should a State like 
Florida have to import prescription drugs made and manufactured 
here in the United States from Canada to lower the cost of 
medications for their citizens?
    This price gouging must end and it must end through Federal 
regulation. Drugs do not work if people cannot afford them, and 
I cannot fulfill my duty as a physician if my patients cannot 
follow their doctor's orders. Thank you.
    [The prepared statement of Dr. Douglas appears as a 
submission for the record.]
    Chair Durbin. Thank you, Dr. Douglas. Dr. Sandsmark.

    STATEMENT OF MICHAEL A. SANDSMARK, PHARMD, DIRECTOR OF 
    PHARMACY, IROQUOIS MEMORIAL HOSPITAL AND RESIDENT HOME, 
                          WATSEKA, IL

    Dr. Sandsmark. First of all, thank you, Chairman Durbin, 
for inviting me here today to discuss prescription drug prices 
and their effects on my patients.
    As a pharmacist, I've had countless discussions with 
patients at the pharmacy counter about their prescription drug 
costs. It is never an easy task to explain to a retired 
teacher, a grandma, or a neighbor, that their prescription 
copay will be over $600 simply because it is a new year, but 
that the prescription that was $47 last month is now $260 
because they're now in the Medicare coverage gap.
    For the last 5 to 10 years, I have been having these 
conversations with my patients all too frequently as the cost 
of prescription drugs have far outpaced inflation. These 
conversations often led to patients leaving prescriptions 
behind or rationing previously filled prescriptions solely due 
to the accessibly high cost.
    At the beginning of the year, I see patients delaying 
medication refills because of the high Medicare Part D 
deductible. As the year progresses and patients begin to enter 
the Medicare Part D coverage gap, we often see patients stop 
filling their most expensive medications for the remainder of 
the year. These conversations just became disheartening to our 
patients and who are burning out myself and my dedicated 
pharmacy staff.
    So, we set out to try and avoid these conversations 
altogether. Even before the patient arrives at the pharmacy 
counter, my staff and I explore all ways to reduce our 
patient's costs and bridge these coverage gaps. We want to 
ensure that the patient leaves the pharmacy with the prescribed 
medication or a therapeutically equivalent medication in their 
hands.
    Being a part of a critical access hospital affords my staff 
the time to advocate for our patients and more closely work 
with providers, nurses, social workers, and medical assistants 
to overcome these financial barriers. It often takes the entire 
healthcare team across multiple departments to connect patients 
with manufacturer samples, find a free trial coupon, enroll 
patients in a prescription assistance program, explore 
opportunities to the 340B drug savings program, and if all else 
fails, paying for the patient's copay out of our own pockets.
    Since the passage of the Inflation Reduction Act, our 
patients have certainly benefited directly at the pharmacy 
counter. This legislation has drastically improved the 
financial stability of many of my elderly patients who are 
almost all living on a fixed income. I'm reminded of a type 1 
diabetic farmer that was spending nearly $7,500 a year solely 
on insulin copays prior to turning 65 in 2022. He now spends 
less than $900 annually because of the $35 month cap on copays 
for his NovoLog and Lantus that he has prescribed.
    Another way that we have helped reduce our patient's 
prescription expenses is by counseling them, selecting the 
right Medicare Part D plan each year. Unfortunately, the open 
enrollment period has typically led me to explaining ever 
increasing prices, and patients becoming increasingly worried 
about their household budgets.
    However, this open enrollment period has led to entirely 
different feelings for my patients. I'm looking forward to 
showing them their 2025 plan comparisons because more out-of-
pocket savings will be rolled out to all patients, not just 
those dependent on insulin.
    Last week, I counseled an 84-year-old retired home 
healthcare aide, suffering from heart disease and type 2 
diabetes. She takes 13 medications, including Entresto, 
Xarelto, Victoza, Praluent, and Jardiance. She will see her 
out-of-pocket costs fall from over $7,000 in 2024 to only 
$2,000 in 2025. These are life-changing savings for many of my 
patients, and now my staff and I can focus more on clinical 
aspects of our profession instead of chasing them coupons and 
dealing with manufacturer samples.
    The Inflation Reduction Act not only has helped reduce 
prescription drug expenses, but has also had a dramatic effect 
on one of the most important medications we have in our toolkit 
today; vaccines. At Iroquois Memorial Hospital, the pharmacy 
staff helps lead a vaccination program across many care areas, 
including long-term care residents, patients in our rural 
health clinics, and acute care patients.
    The expansion of coverage for many recommended adult 
vaccinations, including shingles, RSV, and COVID-19, has 
undoubtedly led to increased vaccination rates among our 
patients. Two years ago, nearly all patients interested in 
receiving the two dose shingles series first inquired about the 
cost before we ever discussed effectiveness or potential side 
effects. Unfortunately, a large percent of these patients would 
decline receiving the vaccine when they discover their out-of-
pocket cost for nearly $400 for the series.
    Today, these vaccines are fully covered for Medicare 
beneficiaries, and the conversations I have with patients are 
censored around the importance of receiving the vaccines 
instead of the cost.
    Although current legislation has led to significant 
reductions in the price of prescription medications to a large 
segment of the U.S. population, there is still more work to be 
done. I've seen every increasing need to legislate meaningful 
cost reductions for all patients in the United States, 
especially those working-class Americans with employer-
sponsored health insurance.
    As we see type 2 diabetes and heart disease diagnosed in 
patients in their 20's and in their 30's, it is increasingly 
important to ensure these patients and their families can 
afford to treat these diseases effectively for decades during 
their most productive years.
    Thank you, again, Senator Durbin for the opportunity to 
share my experience and those of many of my patients here 
today.
    [The prepared statement of Dr. Sandsmark appears as a 
submission for the record.]
    Chair Durbin. Thank you, Dr. Sandsmark. Ms. Deanna Brandt.

                  STATEMENT OF DEANNA BRANDT, 
             MEDICARE BENEFICIARY, COUNTRYSIDE, IL

    Ms. Brandt. Thank you, Chairman Durbin, and Members of the 
Committee. My name is Deanna Brandt. I live in Countryside, 
Illinois. I'd like to tell you a little bit about my experience 
in using the Part D section of Medicare. I've been on Medicare 
for since 2002, where about 19 of those years, I was on very 
few prescriptions. And for the most part, they were generic and 
considered tier 1 drugs, and very inexpensive. I was very 
healthy. So, very few problems.
    In 2021, I developed Covid, although I was unaware, with no 
symptoms. However, I developed atrial fibrillation, or AFib, 
maybe from Covid. It was detected when I was sent to the 
hospital to be treated for the AFib. From 2021 to the present, 
I have had RSV, two back surgeries, a bladder tumor, and stones 
in my bile ducts. Needless to say, it has required more 
prescriptions, but happy to say I now feel very well.
    Three of the medications I take are quite expensive and put 
me in the coverage gap. Pretty early in the year, in 2021, I 
was able to stay in the initial coverage section until I had to 
deal with AFib, and then I was pushed very quickly into the 
coverage gab in October. In 2022, it was May, 2023, April, and 
this year I got all the way to June.
    My out-of-pocket costs in 2021 were $4,533. In 22, they 
were $7,019, just $31 from the catastrophic stage. In 2023, it 
was $7,528, and I did reach the catastrophic stage. To date, 
this year, I've spent $5,634, but I will have at least another 
$1,200 through the end of the year.
    Although I have Social Security and a pension, and 
therefore on a fixed income, I do have to watch my spending. I 
live in a moderately priced condo, have a mid-price car, and I 
don't go on vacations. The amount I spend on drugs was more 
than I received from required distribution from my 401K. 
Instead of saving that money, I paid for drugs. I do like to 
assist my grandchildren with their school loan debt, but the 
last 3 years I was unable to assist.
    For others, that $7,000 would mean their basic needs like 
food, housing, or transportation. They're greatly affected. The 
average person spends about $3,000 in groceries a year, and 
about $1,500 a month in rent. For many, the cost of their drugs 
is a decision of whether they do or do not pay for their basic 
needs.
    I also was at a pharmacy one day when a lady came to pick 
up her prescriptions, one prescription. They told her the 
price. I don't remember exactly what it was, but it was well 
over $100. She stood there for a minute and then said, ``I 
don't have that kind of money,'' and she walked away from the 
counter without her medication. My regret was that I didn't 
react and offer her some help.
    I have a friend that's in a study for cancer. The drug she 
is taking would cost her $4,000 a month if she wasn't in the 
study. That is more money than most people receive from Social 
Security. She would not have been able to afford to pay that 
amount. She's, thankfully, in remission at the moment. I have 
another friend that pays $1,000 a month for a cream for a 
dermatology problem.
    There's assistance for low-income people, and there is a 
group of people with enough disposable income to afford 
medications. It's the group in the middle that seemingly bear 
the heaviest burden in this matter. Prescriptions that are 
necessary for quality of life should not be beyond any senior, 
let alone any other age group's ability to afford it. Being 
healthy should not just be for people with discretionary 
income.
    Food for thought. I sometimes question how the incessant 
advertising of prescription drugs on all forms of media affect 
the overall drug cost. Could that money spent be repurposed 
into lowering drug cost? I cannot decide which drugs I take. 
Only my doctor can.
    My friends and I are very grateful for Medicare and the 
drug program. We certainly don't want to go backward. It just 
seems for the cost for drugs that are considered tiers 3, 4, 
and 5 are very excessive. We're all grateful that next year 
there'll be a cap on our medications at $2,000. It could be the 
difference for many of eating or taking their medications.
    Thank you for your time and your efforts to lower 
prescription drugs. Keep working on this to make it better for 
me and others.
    [The prepared statement of Ms. Brandt appears as a 
submission for the record.]
    Chair Durbin. Thank you for being here. Sincerely, thank 
you very much. I'm sorry you don't consider this trip a 
vacation since you----
    [Laughter.]
    Ms. Brandt [continuing]. It is kind of.
    Chair Durbin. It's kind of a vacation, a little ways, but 
you're telling your personal story. Thank you. Makes a 
difference. Really does make a difference. I'm going to ask you 
a few things about it in a minute. What a panel. What a great 
panel. Thank you all for being here.
    Dr. Douglas, thanks for telling your personal story as your 
perspective as a physician. It really is meaningful. You 
mentioned that to manage his diabetes, your father was 
prescribed Jardiance, which he was unable to afford.
    I think we have a chart on Jardiance. As you can see from 
the chart, Jardiance manufacturers steadily raised the drugs 
price over the last 5 years from around $450 to nearly $600 for 
a 30-day supply. Your father lived through this under the 
Inflation Reduction Act. Medicare is finally able to negotiate 
the price it pays for certain drugs, including Jardiance, and 
the Biden/Harris Administration was able to negotiate the price 
for Jardiance down to $197 a month. A 66 percent discount over 
the high price your dad faced.
    Tell me what that price reduction, you think, will mean to 
your patients.
    [Poster is displayed.]
    Dr. Douglas. Well, in short, Senator, it means saving 
lives. I mean, people who have access to the medications that 
they need because they are affordable and within reach means 
that their conditions such as Jardiance, which is utilized to 
manage diabetes as well as some other comorbids as well means 
that they have their blood sugars in control. They stay out of 
the hospital. They don't have complications associated with 
diabetes like strokes, heart attacks, peripheral vascular 
disease. Ultimately it means that we keep people out of the 
hospital. We keep people from the morbidity and the mortality 
associated with diseases like diabetes.
    Chair Durbin. So, I'm going to ask you a question about the 
medical profession and vis-a-vis this issue, and maybe you'll 
feel comfortable answering, if you don't just say so. But it 
strikes me that there are a handful of drugs which we are 
bombarded with when it comes to advertising. You just can't 
watch a football game, or frankly, anything on your television 
without getting an ad for a new drug, or many times, a drug you 
know pretty well.
    Dr. Douglas. Yes.
    Chair Durbin. The fact that we can pronounce and even spell 
Xarelto at this point is proof positive that we've certainly 
been trained with all these ads. I'm assuming, and you tell me 
if I'm wrong, that the pharmaceutical companies have basically 
decided if we can convince the ultimate consumer to go into the 
doctor's office and say, I need Xarelto, I need Wegovy, or 
whatever it happens to be. That the doctor is going to 
prescribe that as opposed to questioning whether or not it's 
necessary, or whether there's an affordable generic. Is that 
true?
    Dr. Douglas. Yes. I mean, I certainly, I think that is the 
strategy. Not only do they advertise directly to physicians to 
encourage us to prescribe these medications, but they also 
encourage patients to go in the clinics and the hospitals to 
ask for these medications.
    For example, the drug that we've all been talking about 
today, Ozempic. We're constantly, as physicians, being 
bombarded with questions about their ability to get on the 
Ozempic, just to find out that the patients can't afford 
Ozempic. That I think the list price for Ozempic is around 
almost $1,000. And so, they certainly--this is certainly a 
strategy, I believe, from the pharmaceutical industry to 
encourage patients to ask for the medications that they see on 
the television screen.
    Oftentimes, patients aren't even aware that these 
medications are applicable to their situations, and we as 
physicians have to educate them and tell them why, you know, 
this medication is not appropriate for your condition.
    Chair Durbin. Let's take Ozempic, and look at some numbers. 
Novo Nordisk sells it for $71 in France, $59 in Germany. The 
United States, they charge patients $969, and the price is only 
going up. And I can understand the demand are coming from the 
consumer side, anything that is reduction in weight which 
doesn't involve strict adherence to diet or exercise. People 
have been looking for that miracle care for a long, long time, 
and it's going to create an ethical issue for us, too, unless 
we bring the price down to an affordable level in terms of the 
fact that weight reduction in and of itself, I think, is 
beneficial in almost every circumstance. And so, how do you 
react to that?
    Dr. Douglas. Well, my concern is, again, for those patients 
who Ozempic is not appropriate for. There's certainly 
conditions and situations where medication is not the right 
answer to address weight reduction. In some cases, surgery is 
more appropriate for patients with high BMI scores.
    And so, my concern is that those patients who come in 
asking for the medication, often for some of them, that 
medication is not applicable to them. And then for the patients 
who it is applicable to, most of them can't afford to even take 
the medication for us to prescribe it to them. So, I think that 
there's certainly--I think it's issues on both sides.
    Chair Durbin. Dr. Sandsmark, let me ask you a question that 
I raised earlier with the first panel. What's going on with 
Walgreens? Why is it when you go in there, you have to wait in 
line to get a prescription filled? I had to return a third day 
to get a prescription filled at Walgreens, smack-dab in the 
middle of Chicago. And you better pick the time of day when 
you're coming. If it's anytime near the end of a workday, the 
lines are just unbearable. And here we have a situation where 
they're saying, well, the answer to this from Walgreens 
corporate perspective is we're going to have to start closing 
drug stores. Closing drug stores? How does that solve a 
corporate financial problem? But it certainly doesn't address 
the basic problem of people waiting in line forever and ever to 
have a prescription filled. What's your take on that?
    Dr. Sandsmark. Yes, it's certainly not going to lead to 
better health healthcare outcomes by closing pharmacies. I 
think a lot of it has to do with how a lot of retail 
pharmacists are treated. There's a lot of burnouts with staff. 
Not only the pharmacists, but technicians. They're forced to 
administer vaccines, counsel patients, you know, fill hundreds 
and hundreds of drugs each day. And so, there is a lot of 
burnouts in there.
    You know, these corporations are having trouble finding 
staffs, like aren't able to keep their stores open. And then, 
going along with the reimbursement rates from these PBMs that, 
yes, some of them are controlled by big pharmacy chains, but 
some of them are not. So, you see the pharmacies as an 
individual getting squeezed by the low reimbursement rates on 
these ever-increasing prices on these drugs.
    Chair Durbin. I'd like to invite Professor Sachs and the 
Attorney General, to comment on the PBM experience that I've 
just described and any aspect of it.
    Professor Sachs. Oh, sure. So, in terms of the prices of 
prescription drugs, I'll defer on the question of independent 
pharmacies. In terms of the prices, there's clearly a role for 
some type of actor to negotiate for lower prices for drugs. But 
we've heard already about the ways in which PBMs don't seem 
like in many cases, they're passing on the discounts that 
they're getting to insurers or to patients. And so, in my view, 
we should think broadly about opportunities at the Federal 
level and even at the State level for PBM reform.
    So, you might have, for example, a regulatory reform or 
statutory reform that acts on the PBMs themselves, but you 
could think about a reform that would affect another actor in 
the healthcare system to push back on the problems that we're 
seeing. And so, the Inflation Reduction Act, I think is one 
example of this.
    So, if you look at, for example, the Federal Trade 
Commission regarding PBMs and their conduct in the insulin 
market, one of the concerns is about patients' exposure to 
these really high out-of-pocket costs. You could respond to 
that, and maybe we should respond to that by looking at the 
conduct of the PBMs themselves. But another way to respond to 
it is, as the IRA does, it caps Medicare beneficiaries' out-of-
pocket costs for insulin at $35 per month, and it has this 
additional out-of-pocket cap and the Medicare Part D program as 
a whole.
    So, one option is to look at reforms that address the PBM 
itself, but another is to say, insurers are working with the 
PBMs in this way, and that relationship is subject to some of 
these concerns that might be harming patients. Let's look at 
the harm to patients more directly. So, that's maybe just one 
point I would make.
    Chair Durbin. Attorney General.
    Mr. Raoul. Yes, Mr. Chairman. The transparency is 
desperately needed. As we initiated our first investigation 
into a PBM that I mentioned earlier, getting the resolution was 
rather quick because they knew what they were doing was in 
inappropriate.
    Chair Durbin. Inappropriate. From an Attorney General's 
point of view, I might use a different word, but go ahead.
    Mr. Raoul. Yes. The stronger language that could be used 
on--it's unconscionable. Because as mentioned by several 
speakers today, the role of the PBM is the opposite of what the 
effect has been. It's to be able to negotiate, to drive down 
the costs. And the impact on end users, the patients, is that 
they're not using their medication or they're not using their 
medication appropriately, and the consequence can be fatal in 
some instances.
    The question that we're faced with State actions to 
regulate PBMs is whether we're preempted by the feds. And 
that's why we've been trying to use both efforts to encourage 
and protect State efforts to control the pricing as well as to 
encourage Congress to be able to get some transparency, get 
these PBMs to furnish their pricing data to the feds as well as 
State payers.
    Chair Durbin. Ms. Brandt, as you described it, I'm 
impressed by the fact that you've been able to juggle all these 
numbers and how they apply to you personally. And you seem to 
have made it through this thicket, but you describe people who 
have not been able to do so. Do you think this notion of $2,000 
a year maximum out-of-pocket expense, also define maybe $40 a 
week, is the most that you can have to pay out-of-pocket? Do 
you think that this is a cleanup of a system that is too 
complicated?
    Ms. Brandt. It might be. I'm a person that charts 
everything. So, every year, I compare the medication programs, 
and I write everything to how much every one will cost me. Not 
everybody does that.
    Chair Durbin. I think you could be an influencer.
    [Laughter.]
    Ms. Brandt. I'm yelling at people all the time. People have 
told me, oh, I don't look at it. I just pay the same, do the 
same. So, I'm kind of yelling at them. But I think it's such a 
wonderful addition, the $2,000. I'm very, very happy.
    Chair Durbin. It does make a big difference.
    Ms. Brandt. Big difference.
    Chair Durbin. Dr. Sandsmark, when it comes to the role of 
the pharmacist, I think we ought to put a couple things on the 
record. What does it take to become a licensed pharmacist in 
the State of Illinois?
    Dr. Sandsmark. Usually, about 6 to 8 years of schooling. 
And then----
    Chair Durbin. Beyond college?
    Dr. Sandsmark [continuing]. That'd be total.
    Chair Durbin. Pardon me?
    Dr. Sandsmark. Yes. Beyond high school, that'd be total.
    Chair Durbin. So, it's 8 years.
    Dr. Sandsmark. Yes. Depending on which school you go to. 
Yes. It'd be up to it.
    Chair Durbin. Is it an expensive education?
    Dr. Sandsmark. Probably about quarter to a half a million 
dollars, depending on which school you choose.
    Chair Durbin. And ultimately, these pharmacists are still 
in high demand, right?
    Dr. Sandsmark. Very, very much so.
    Chair Durbin. And how many pharmacy schools do we have in 
our State, or nearby?
    Dr. Sandsmark. I think we're up to like five or six now. 
Used to be only a couple.
    Chair Durbin. And you work out of the hospital, the 
Iroquois County Hospital?
    Dr. Sandsmark. Yes.
    Chair Durbin. But you do retail?
    Dr. Sandsmark. We do everything. We might go from mixing 
$100,000 chemo in the morning to filling a $4 antibiotic from a 
patient in our urgent care. So, it's really all over the board.
    Chair Durbin. Professor Sachs, I can't tell you how many 
times I've heard on the floor about the freeze on innovation 
and preventing new drugs from coming to market. You teach a 
course on that, don't you?
    Professor Sachs. I do teach classes on innovation in the 
pharmaceutical industry, but also on access to new medications.
    Chair Durbin. The cancer drug, Keytruda, had $25 billion in 
sales last year. $25 billion. The revenue for this single 
medication is on par with what MasterCard or McDonald's 
Corporation earns in a year. How is it possible? How can it 
possibly be that a penny less in profit to Big Pharma will 
stifle innovation?
    Professor Sachs. One of my favorite quotes on this topic is 
from former Health and Human Services Secretary Azar, who 
himself was a former pharmaceutical company executive, and he 
referred to this as a tired talking point, right? He said, 
``it's not the case that if one penny disappears from pharma 
profit margins, American innovation will grind to a halt.'' And 
yet, over time, we certainly have seen the pharmaceutical 
industry oppose all kinds of measures of drug pricing reform 
from the larger scale drug price negotiation programs to much 
smaller scale bills that would focus on particular patent or 
FDA abuses.
    And so, in my view, what we really care about is the value 
of innovation to patients. It's about delivering real, new 
clinical value for patients, and reforms that preserve and 
protect that value, rather than just the amount of innovation 
are really what matters. And here, one thing about the 
Inflation Reduction Act, the IRA's drug price negotiation 
program, is it really centers that concept of innovation that 
delivers value for patients.
    So, Congress specifically directed Medicare to consider as 
part of the negotiation process factors like; whether a drug is 
a therapeutic advance as compared to existing therapeutic 
alternatives, the drug's comparative effectiveness, and whether 
the drug addresses unmet medical needs.
    Those are the kinds of things where Medicare is directed to 
consider. Whether this drug delivers more value for patients. 
If so, maybe we should pay more for it, rather than if there's 
a drug that's one of these, you might use the term ``me too 
drugs'', but doesn't provide a new mechanism of action or a new 
option for patients.
    Chair Durbin. We also know that pharmaceutical companies 
spend more in sales and marketing than they do on research and 
development. In 2020, Johnson & Johnson, one of the leaders, 
spent nearly twice as much on sales and marketing, $22 billion 
than it spent on R&D. GlaxoSmithKline was even worse. It spent 
$7 billion on research and development. Less than half of the 
$15 billion it spent on sales and marketing.
    Dr. Douglas, you seem like you're aware of this. Have you 
discussed this with people in the pharmaceutical industry?
    Dr. Douglas. Yes, certainly. The uneven spending in terms 
of on advertising and marketing versus the actual research and 
development, I think that a common conversation amongst my own 
colleagues and around the hospital is the fact that, you know, 
in America, we prioritize capitalism, right?
    And there's nothing wrong with turning a profit, but when 
that profit takes priority over people, especially in the 
healthcare industry, that's when it becomes a problem. And it's 
not an over exaggeration that people are dying because they 
can't afford the medications that they need, and they're 
spending much more time in the hospital in the emergency 
department.
    When we look at the--you quoted the Johnson & Johnson 
numbers. Novartis spent $14.6 billion in advertising and $9.9 
billion in research and development. Pfizer spent $11.4 billion 
advertising and $6.6 billion in research and development. I 
have a hard time grappling why these numbers. Well, one, why 
would your advertising cost be significantly higher than 
research and development, but why they would even be close in 
terms of numbers. And so, I think that it is a moral hazard on 
the behalf of the pharmaceutical industry in order to turn over 
large profits.
    And, you know, another point I want to make is that we 
talked about the evasiveness of the pharmaceutical industry and 
avoiding legislation to regulate these prices and industries. 
Like, the hospitals and some of our clinics, our larger scale 
clinics that get a lot of bad rep about care and affordability 
of care are being gouged by the pharmaceutical industry as 
well.
    We talk about the 340B Program, which is currently under 
attack by the pharmaceutical industry and some other opponents 
of the 340B Program. But that those type of programs that make 
prescription drugs more affordable for hospitals and patients 
allow us to provide resources in strapped environments like at 
the University of Chicago, where we care for a large percentage 
of Medicaid and Medicare patients.
    So, these programs that they've--the legislation that 
they've evaded and the regulation that they have evaded from 
making prescriptions more affordable, is harmful to patients, 
and it leads to less, and less, and poorer and poorer outcomes 
in terms of healthcare outcomes in our country.
    Chair Durbin. Now, the pharmaceutical industry is going to 
counter that they put these ads in the air for consumer 
education so that they can learn more about these drugs. I'm 
going to ask you about one of the drugs, and one of the 
statements that's made over and over again. The Xarelto, the 
warning is this, ``Don't take Xarelto if you're allergic to 
Xarelto''
    [Laughter.]
    Chair Durbin. Tell me as a doctor what you make of that.
    Dr. Douglas. Well, I think, oftentimes, in a lot of these 
advertising, you--I mean, we all see that the ads and on the 
television about all the warning signs and how quickly they 
rattle off ?
    Chair Durbin. Oh, yes.
    Dr. Douglas [continuing]. All the potential side effects or 
potential hazards to taking these medications, which is 
important for people to know and to be aware of. But there's 
evidently not a priority for people to know that otherwise they 
wouldn't be the last 3 seconds of the commercial in these 
advertisements. Right? So, I think it is important, the 
transparency about the harm and the risk of taking these 
medications is important, but it's not a priority for the 
pharmaceutical industry.
    And it's a marketing tactic. There's a science to 
marketing. It's like there's a science to medicine. I think in 
one of the previous hearings you had, one of your colleagues on 
the Judiciary Committee talked about that the ads are a cure 
for loneliness, right, and how we look at these ads and the 
people start off as depressed and sad because they are dealing 
with the disease. And then at the end, they're surrounded by 
family and loved ones
    Chair Durbin. Marching down the street.
    [Laughter.]
    Dr. Douglas. Marching, yes. And that's not reality, right? 
It's a marketing scheme by the pharmaceutical industry to 
encourage and inspire patients to go and purchase or lobby 
their physicians to prescribe those medications.
    Chair Durbin. Well, I kind of challenged the industry on 
consumer education when Senator Grassley and I introduced a 
bill, which said that every one of these ads had to contain a 
disclosure of the actual list price of the pharmaceutical drug. 
So, that the people who are watching this ad and thinking about 
maybe I can march down the street, too, having lost 35 pounds, 
maybe that's in my future as well.
    Well, we introduced this and it turned out the 
pharmaceutical industry did not want to educate any American 
consumers on the actual list price they set for the drug 
itself. Do you have any idea what the number one advertised 
drug is on television now?
    Mr. Raoul. I'm not aware.
    Chair Durbin. Well, when you hear the name, you will be; 
Rinvoq. Rinvoq. Any idea, perhaps Dr. Sandsmark, you might know 
this. Do you know what a monthly prescription of Rinvoq cost?
    Dr. Sandsmark. I don't think I've dispensed that one 
before, which is probably fortunate for my patients because I'm 
sure the prices can be rather high.
    Chair Durbin. Six thousand one hundred dollars. Six 
thousand one hundred dollars. Now, if you knew, if it were 
flashed on the screen while you're watching this ad, you might 
have second thoughts about whether or not I want to recommend 
that to the doctor next time I go in. Now, I don't want to stop 
anybody from a legitimate conversation and exchange with a 
medical professional. I'm not suggesting that at all. But this 
is not designed for legitimate information to be given to 
consumers. It is designed to market a product, and it's very 
successful in that effort in what they're achieving.
    I want to ask the Attorney General a question. When you 
join these other attorneys general on an amicus to the Ninth 
Circuit Court of Appeals supporting an Oregon law that requires 
pharmaceutical manufacturers to annually report information for 
certain types of prescription drugs, why is it important for 
the States to be able to provide more transparency?
    Mr. Raoul. Yes. As I mentioned with regards to the PBM, 
having everything, certain information--allows for inflated 
pricing, and more transparency does, you know allows for State 
and Federal regulators to rein in on some of these practices.
    Chair Durbin. It certainly does. And, I think, we've made 
that point today. Dr. Sandsmark, let me ask you about specific 
pharmacy near my home in Springfield. I've heard concerns from 
independent rural pharmacy owners like Dave Bagot, Petersburg 
Pharmacy in Menard County. He's highlighted the systemic 
underpayment by PBMs to small pharmacies, and how these 
middlemen steer patients to their preferred networks.
    The Federal Trades Commission has also found the same thing 
in enforcement against the three big PBMs; CVS Caremark, 
Express Scripts, and Optum, for anti-competitive and unfair 
rebating practices. This is a complicated subject that I'd like 
to ask you and Dr. Professor Sachs. We need more transparency 
around PBMs, as the Attorney General just said. Can you help us 
unpack these issues?
    Dr. Sandsmark. So, first of all, you know, preferred 
pharmacies is a loaded term, right? So, preferred doesn't mean 
more affordable. It just means that they, the PBM wants you to 
go there. It doesn't mean you're going to save money there. So, 
even on the Medicare Part D website, patients can go and see 
that one insurer might say that a chain pharmacy is preferred, 
but if they were to select a small independent pharmacy, like 
the one you talked about, that pharmacy might not be preferred, 
but more affordable for the patient at the bottom line 
annually.
    So, you have to see who's calling it preferred, right? Is 
it the PBM calling it preferred? That's, you know, steering you 
toward that. And we see the low underpayments all the time on 
these, you know, brand name drugs that we've been talking about 
all morning. You know, those are the drugs that a lot of times 
we're losing the most money on, right? The independents are 20 
percent of our prescriptions each month, we're usually losing 
some amount of money to the PBMs because they're not paying us 
enough for what we're paying it from the wholesaler.
    Chair Durbin. So, they make the drugs available, but they 
charge prices which you can't recover at the counter?
    Dr. Sandsmark. Yes, exactly.
    Chair Durbin. Dr. Sachs?
    Professor Sachs. So, one, I think, of the real challenges 
here, and we've heard a little bit about this, is the role of 
vertical integration, and the ways in which these PBMs are 
incorporated into pharmacy chains, or insurers, or other parts 
of the drug pricing supply chain and ecosystem, which makes 
transparency particularly important, but also even more 
complicated.
    So, we heard already, for example, reference to this New 
York Times series about the role of PBMs. Something that comes 
up in that series is about the role that PBMs are now creating 
these GPOs, these group purchasing organizations, that they're 
separating out from their core PBM functions. And whether 
through those GPOs, they might be siphoning off additional fees 
or other services. And it's very difficult to know. And so, 
transparency or sort of other oversight in general might be 
helpful in getting at that information.
    Another point that comes up in that news series and also in 
the interim staff report from the FTC from earlier this summer 
is this question of PBMs now introducing their own co-branded 
biosimilars, and in some cases, referencing them over 
biosimilars from other manufacturers. That's something where 
there also has yet to be, I think, a real sustained look at 
whether that's pro-competitive or anti-competitive. And so, 
there's a whole range of practices that have been raised in 
these reports that it'd be helpful to know much more about.
    Chair Durbin. It appears there's another process underway. 
Some of the largest pharmaceutical companies have gone further. 
They have launched new telehealth platforms. Now, patients 
seeing a drug ad on social media can, ``Click here,'' to talk 
to a doctor about a company's advertised medication. These 
platforms link patients with hand-selected healthcare 
providers. The ensuing visits are often briefed with little 
review of health records or histories. It makes a healthcare 
appointment more like an Amazon shopping experience, and the 
financial relationship between the drug company and the doctor 
raises concerns about inappropriate inducement of prescribing.
    What concerns would you have about pharmaceutical 
companies' handpicked doctors writing prescriptions for 
patients who are connected via their own ads? Dr. Douglas?
    Dr. Douglas. Yes, I would have significant concerns. 
There's financial incentive for these physicians to prescribe 
medications that may not be the most appropriate for that 
patient situation. So, I'm not personally aware of any 
physicians who are employed or work through telehealth and are 
supported through prescription drug industries, but I certainly 
would be concerned that there's incentive for the physician to 
prescribe medications that won't necessarily benefit the 
patient or be appropriate for their situation.
    Chair Durbin. Professor Sachs?
    Professor Sachs. Well, as a health law professor, something 
we talk about often is the independence of the medical 
profession, and the importance of physicians being able to make 
independent medical judgments based on clinical evidence about 
what might be best for their patients. And so, there's a whole 
series of different laws that are designed to make sure that 
physicians are exercising that independent judgment, maybe that 
they're not being financially induced, right, by other actors.
    And so, I'd have to look more at that case study in 
particular, but that certainly would be something that would be 
potentially concerning in thinking about the role of the 
physician and the relationship with their patient.
    Chair Durbin. I want to thank this panel for their 
contributions to this hearing. This hearing is really laid out 
in real terms how the market failure is caused by Big Pharma's 
exploitation of the patent system and bombardment of TV ads 
have made medications unaffordable for many people.
    The perspectives we heard from patients, pharmacists, 
providers, and legislators, are a call to action, from my point 
of view. We need to build upon the Inflation Reduction Act. For 
Ms. Brandt's observation, we've got to have affordable drugs. 
Your money or your life is not an acceptable outcome from this 
hearing. The perspectives we heard today will help us to build 
upon bringing down the high cost of prescription drugs.
    I'm not against pharmaceutical companies making a profit, 
I'm for it. I wanted to incentivize them to find new cures, new 
approaches in medicine. What we have now in this country is 
just almost indescribable. Try to get somebody to describe the 
role of a PBM. Attorney General, there was a full-page ad in 
the New York Times not that long ago from the PBM industry 
saying, ``We are not middlemen.'' But they were middlemen, 
completely lost the role that they play. We need to continue to 
incentivize pharmaceutical companies to develop these drugs 
while ensuring that they're accessible to Americans who need 
them at a price they can afford.
    The hearing record will remain open for a week for 
statements to be submitted. Questions for the record may be 
submitted by Senators by 5 p.m. on Tuesday, November 5, a day 
you should remember.
    Chair Durbin. I want to thank the witnesses again for 
coming. This hearing stands adjourned. And this is the end of 
your vacation Ms. Brandt.
    [Laughter.]
    [Whereupon, at 11:59 a.m., the hearging was adjourned.]
    [Additional material submitted for the record follows.]
    
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                            A P P E N D I X

The following submissions are available at:

  https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CHRG-118shrg61373/pdf/CHRG-118shrg
    61373-add1.pdf


Submitted by Chair Durbin:

 Patients For Affordable Drugs NOW, letter........................     2

 Transparency-Rx, letter..........................................     5

                                 [all]