[Senate Hearing 118-668]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
S. Hrg. 118-668
HOW MASS DEPORTATIONS WILL SEPARATE
AMERICAN FAMILIES, HARM OUR ARMED
FORCES, AND DEVASTATE OUR ECONOMY
=======================================================================
HEARING
before the
COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY
UNITED STATES SENATE
ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
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DECEMBER 10, 2024
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Serial No. J-118-87
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Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary
[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
www.judiciary.senate.gov
www.govinfo.gov
______
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
60-483 WASHINGTON : 2025
COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY
RICHARD J. DURBIN, Illinois, Chair
SHELDON WHITEHOUSE, Rhode Island LINDSEY O. GRAHAM, South Carolina,
AMY KLOBUCHAR, Minnesota Ranking Member
CHRISTOPHER A. COONS, Delaware CHARLES E. GRASSLEY, Iowa
RICHARD BLUMENTHAL, Connecticut JOHN CORNYN, Texas
MAZIE K. HIRONO, Hawaii MICHAEL S. LEE, Utah
CORY A. BOOKER, New Jersey TED CRUZ, Texas
ALEX PADILLA, California JOSH HAWLEY, Missouri
JON OSSOFF, Georgia TOM COTTON, Arkansas
PETER WELCH, Vermont JOHN KENNEDY, Louisiana
LAPHONZA BUTLER, California THOM TILLIS, North Carolina
MARSHA BLACKBURN, Tennessee
Joseph Zogby, Majority Staff Director
Katherine Nikas, Minority Staff Director
C O N T E N T S
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OPENING STATEMENTS
Page
Durbin, Hon. Richard J........................................... 1
Graham, Hon. Lindsey O........................................... 3
Padilla, Hon. Alex............................................... 4
Cornyn, Hon. John................................................ 7
WITNESSES
Arthur, Art...................................................... 11
Prepared statement........................................... 45
Responses to written questions............................... 138
Manner, Randy.................................................... 13
Prepared statement........................................... 117
Morin, Patty..................................................... 15
Prepared statement........................................... 122
Reichlin-Melnick, Aaron.......................................... 16
Prepared statement........................................... 125
Turay, Foday..................................................... 10
Prepared statement........................................... 134
APPENDIX
Items submitted for the record................................... 43
HOW MASS DEPORTATIONS WILL SEPARATE
AMERICAN FAMILIES, HARM OUR ARMED
FORCES, AND DEVASTATE OUR ECONOMY
----------
TUESDAY, DECEMBER 10, 2024
United States Senate,
Committee on the Judiciary,
Washington, DC.
The Committee met, pursuant to notice at 9:56 a.m., in Room
G50, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Richard J. Durbin,
Chair of the Committee, presiding.
Present: Senators Durbin [presiding], Whitehouse,
Klobuchar, Coons, Blumenthal, Hirono, Padilla, Welch, Graham,
Grassley, Cornyn, Cruz, Hawley, Kennedy, Tillis, and Blackburn.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. RICHARD J. DURBIN,
A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF ILLINOIS
Chair Durbin. This meeting of the Senate Judiciary
Committee will come to order. Today, the Committee will discuss
President-elect Trump's announced goal of mass deportation of
undocumented immigrants from communities across the country.
Thirteen million undocumented immigrants live in our
country. Most have been here for a long period of time. They're
healthcare workers, teachers, farm workers, small business
owners. They pay taxes nearly, $50 billion a year. They did in
2022. And many, like one of our witnesses today, grew up
alongside our children and grandchildren with the same dreams
of a first job, a driver's license, and college acceptance.
Let's get down to the bottom line. I hope we can all agree
that any undocumented immigrant found guilty of a serious crime
should not be allowed to stay here, or if we have knowledge,
they should not be allowed to come into this country. Period.
Ms. Morin, I read your testimony this morning, touched my
heart. Your loss of your daughter, I know you'll talk about in
some length. That is a tragedy which we all lament and look on
with sadness, and we don't want to allow that kind of
individual who damaged your family so terribly in this country
in the first place. Period.
In his first term, President Trump deported DREAMers who
came to the U.S. as children. He deported veterans who had
served our Nation. He deported essential workers who cared for
our families, built our homes, and made sure we have food on
the table in the morning. It was an undocumented worker who was
watching your grandchild this morning at the daycare center,
undocumented worker who walked carefully with your mother back
to her room after breakfast so she didn't fall down. It was an
undocumented worker with that leaf blower in your front yard
over the weekend.
Now, President-elect Trump has pledged that on the first
day of his new administration, he will declare a national
emergency and use our military as part of a mass deportation
plan. I've made a living out of politics, as have my colleagues
at the table here. During the course of the campaign, you can
make promises. Sometimes they come true and sometimes they
don't.
The notion of Mexico building a wall on our Southern border
was repeated over and over again. It didn't happen. There was
an extension of the wall on our border, but Mexico didn't pay
for it. Things change when you go from high flying campaign
rhetoric to ground.
Think about for a moment, using our military for a mass
deportation plan. I'm sure it would have a damaging impact on
the morale of the troops, rounding up people in their own
communities at a time when we're already facing the most
serious recruitment challenge in years.
Listen to the words of Stephen Miller, who now has been
promoted to a higher-level position, deputy chief of staff for
policy for incoming President Trump. Here's what Stephen Miller
said ``in terms of personnel, you go to the Red State Governors
and you say, give us your National Guard. We will deputize them
as immigration enforcement officers. And if you're going to go
into an unfriendly State like Maryland--'' Stephen Miller said,
``well, there would just be Virginia doing the arrests in
Maryland, right? Very close, very nearby.''
Almost a nonchalant attitude toward the notion of sending
National Guard from one State to the other to end up sending
people out of this country. In addition to weakening our
military, it would cost hundreds of billions of dollars to
deport every undocumented immigrant in our country. It would
damage our economy and separate American families.
Instead, we should focus on deporting those who truly are a
danger to America, and we should give the rest a chance to earn
legal status. They would have to register with the government,
certainly pay their taxes, and submit to serious background
checks. Most Americans, nearly two out of three, agree we
should give lawful status to undocumented immigrants who don't
pose a threat to our country. That's what we did in 2013, a
bipartisan group of eight Senators, including myself, Ranking
Member Graham, drafted a bill to reform our immigration laws
and secure our border. 2013, it was, that bill passed the
Senate 68 to 32.
Unfortunately, it wasn't taken up by the House of
Representatives and the Republican majority. The notion behind
that was that everyone would be under requirement to come
forward and identify themselves to the government. All the
undocumented people in this country. And if they identified
themselves, went through a background check, paid their taxes,
they could continue to live and work here without fear of
deportation.
In fact, in our bill, over a long period of time, and a
really long period of time, they could be on a path to legality
and citizenship. That's a starting point that I think makes
sense. Not mass deportation, but mass accountability so we know
who's here. And how it would make a difference? We would go to
E-Verify to make sure that if you didn't go through that
process in our bill, you couldn't legally work in the United
States. So, there was an enforcement. It was serious. I'm glad
I was part of that effort, and I hope we can return to the
discussion.
Over the weekend, by President-elect Trump, I watched his
interview on Meet the Press. He said some positive things, from
my point of view, and he really challenged us on the Democratic
side to work with him when it came to the DREAMers. I accept
the challenge. Name the time and place, Mr. President, I'll be
there.
The reality is that Congress, for almost 40 years, has
failed to fix our broken immigration system. We've had
opportunities to do it. I hope we can find more in the future.
We should use our 2013 Immigration Bill as a starting point
instead of mass deportations. As I said, mass accountability.
Let's fix our broken immigration system in a way that protects
our country and honors our heritage as a Nation of immigrants.
Now, I recognize Senator Graham.
STATEMENT OF HON. LINDSEY GRAHAM,
A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF SOUTH CAROLINA
Senator Graham. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. From our
point of view over here, one of the primary issues facing the
American people in 2024, for President and other elections, who
is best able to control a broken border? Most Americans are
sympathetic, kind-hearted people who feel like the Biden
Administration was criminally negligent in protecting us by
having a broken border and allowing drugs to pour into our
country to kill tens of thousands of young people, allow people
to come into our country who are convicted felons to do damage
to families who we'll hear from today.
That nightmare is coming to a close. And in January 2025,
the Republican Senate will make its top priority a
transformational border security bill that will be taken up and
passed by the Budget Committee, increasing the number of bed
spaces available to detain people instead of releasing them,
increasing the number of ICE agents to deal with people who
should be deported. Finish the wall and put technology on the
border so we'll have operational control of the border. That's
going to be our top priority. I want to cut taxes, we'll cut
taxes. But as to the Senate, transformational border security
goes first, through reconciliation.
Over 8 million people were encountered during the Biden
years, 4 million released into the country. The non-detained
docket that we have as a Nation is over 7 million people. There
are 600-and-something thousand people on that non-detained
docket that have criminal records. We're going to start sending
people out of the country that present a threat to us and
should never have been here to begin with.
The politics of immigration and broken borders, according
to a couple of Democratic Senators, was outcome-determinative.
I think they're right. So, as much as I respect and admire the
Chairman, I think your focus is misplaced here. You should be
working with us to clean up this mess. You should want mass
deportations of people here illegally that represent threats to
our country.
[Display boards were shown.]
How did we get to where we're at? The average annual
deportation for Obama and Trump was about the same. Along comes
Biden it drops like a rock. So, when you have people show up,
and by the millions, and the number of people being deported
goes down by 40-something percent, you're incentivizing more
people to come.
It is our belief that the only way you'll get control of
the border is for deportations to start early so people will
not pay the money to the coyotes and others to come to our
border in the first place because they see people leaving, not
staying. If we do not have outflow, the inflow will continue.
An example of a broken immigration system was the abuse of
parole by the Biden Administration, mass parole of people who
did not meet the two criteria under the parole statute. The man
who's been convicted of killing Laken Riley was paroled into
the country because there was no bed space. There's nothing in
the statute that allows parole because we have no place to put
you. There are 38,000 beds. We're going to increase that
dramatically.
One of the witnesses here today, his family was destroyed
by a man that had been deported three times. The fourth time
was not a charm. So, if you're here illegally, get ready to
leave. If you're a criminal, we're coming after you first. If
you've been paroled illegally, we're not going to give you the
roots to attach yourself to our country because you should not
have been here in the first place. As to the DREAMers,
hopefully we can find a solution to that problem.
What I want to do is regain control of a broken border
really quickly. The highest number of people on the terrorist
watch list in our country exists today. Hope that number will
go down pretty quickly. I know Senator Cornyn's on the Intel
Committee. In many ways, a broken immigration system has
created a ticking time bomb for our national security.
So, yes, the Republican Party will pass as its top
priority, border security, more bed spaces so you don't have to
release people that shouldn't be released, and more ICE agents
to deport people who represent a threat to our country and
shouldn't be here to begin with. We're going to do that.
And to my Democratic friends, I think if you resist
rational deportation policy, you do so at your own peril.
Eighty-six percent of the people deported under the Trump's
first term were involved with criminal convictions or pending
criminal matters. I have never seen such a mess. It's time to
clean that mess up. So, come January, help is on the way.
Chair Durbin. Thank you, Senator Graham. We have an
Immigration Subcommittee, and chairing that Committee is
Senator Padilla, Ranking Member, Senator Cornyn. They each ask
for a chance to make an opening statement. I recognize Senator
Padilla.
STATEMENT OF HON. ALEX PADILLA,
A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA
Senator Padilla. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and to Senator
Graham. And I want to thank each and every one of the witnesses
that are here today for, obviously, a timely and important
discussion, but taking place during an uncertain and unnerving
time for many in our Nation's history.
I'm going to deviate for a second from my prepared remarks
just to acknowledge what Senator Graham has begun to lay out.
This topic, this issue, is certainly complex. It doesn't do the
issue and the challenge justice to just say, well, there's so
many immigrants in America, or some people say illegal, some
people say undocumented, immigrants in America, when you really
must break it down into a number of categories.
Are there some number that beyond being in the country,
undocumented, may be involved with unlawful activities? Yes.
And I don't think you're going to find Democrats saying we
shouldn't be pursuing actions against violent criminals. But
when Senator Graham also suggests, but you know, we hope we can
take care of the DREAMers.
DREAMers, as you all know, young people who were brought
here by their parents at a very young age, but have grown up
here and are undocumented. Are they also on the target list for
deportation or not? Because we look at them in a different
category. I've had Republican colleagues want to cooperate and
collaborate on legal status and pathways to citizenship for
farm workers, for example, and I get back to them and other
essential workers in America.
But, you know, just because you're undocumented, does that
mean you are on the target? It's yes or no, or are we going to
have the maturity and act responsibly to kind of break down a
complex conversation? Because number one, yes, Democrats
believe we need an orderly, safe, and humane border. Number
two, yes, we should not hesitate to pursue enforcement actions
against violent criminals.
But let's be clear what we are talking about today. This
hearing is on the eve of the next Donald Trump Administration,
and we've heard him for months, and months, and months now
throughout the campaign trail promise mass deportations. We
heard him over and over again commit to, quote, ``The largest
deportation operation in American history.'' And we've had big
ones. For folks watching from home, google Operation Wetback
and begin to do some homework.
We've even heard Donald Trump say that there will be no
price tag for deportations, and heard him promise on Truth
Social to use the United States military to execute it. Now, I
can already hear some of the rebuttals from Republican
colleagues to suggest that, well, he doesn't really mean all
immigrants. He's only talking about violent criminals. Well, I
wish I could believe that he's only committing to targeting
violent criminals because we agree on that front, but pardon me
if I'm skeptical.
We've seen--we've seen Donald Trump in the past and how he
operates. Do you remember the Muslim bans he imposed early in
his first term and the family separations at the border that we
witnessed for years? So, I've seen enough to know that while he
may plan to prioritize, in effect, he will be targeting all
undocumented immigrants, which will inevitably include those
without criminal convictions of any type.
Now, previous administrations of both parties, you saw some
stats being presented. It's been the policy of previous
administrations to prioritize the deportation of those with
criminal convictions, but what we're hearing from incoming
President Trump isn't that. And look at who he has putting in
these pivotal roles to help him execute are loyalist in Kristi
Noem at DHS, extremist Stephen Miller as deputy chief of staff
for policy, and Tom Homan as border czar, who told undocumented
immigrants through the press, quote, ``You should be afraid,''
end quote.
DREAMers, farm workers, that's the message. And he promised
work site raids to prosecute anyone who stands in their way.
They're pushing an extremist agenda on top of the fact that
separating spouses and ripping away children from their
parents, citizen children from sometimes undocumented immigrant
parents isn't just cruel. It's not just morally wrong.
Here's another very important reason why Americans should
be concerned. For anybody whose vote this last November was
motivated by high prices of food, of housing, if anything else,
understand that the mass deportation Donald Trump is describing
will be disastrous to our economy. Again, I'm not trying to
justify those involved with criminal activity. We're on all the
same page there. I'm talking about nonviolent, undocumented
immigrants.
It is all of us, the American people, who will pay for the
extremism policies that he has promised. Put aside the
millions, and millions, and millions of dollars to find
undocumented immigrants he may be targeting to detain and to
remove through the process of deportation for a minute, don't
even count on the funds that will be necessary to hire
thousands of Border Patrol and ICE agents, let alone the cost
of constructing detention centers and jails for this operation.
Let's focus on the impacts to the economy for American
families because, the fact is, there are millions of
undocumented immigrants living in the United States today who
are working in industries critical to our entire economy.
Undocumented immigrants make up nearly 15 percent of all
construction workers, for example, and roughly half of our
agricultural workforce.
Again, if you care about the cost of housing, you care
about the about food prices at the grocery store, you should be
paying attention. Because if tomorrow Stephen Miller could snap
his fingers and have his way, our annual GDP would drop roughly
6.8 percent. Imagine all the losses of the Great Recession, and
then still shrinking the economy another 2.5 points.
So, what does that mean for folks at home? It's simple. Any
industry with a significant percentage of undocumented
immigrants will have a harder time finding workers and know
we've all been hearing from employers and business leaders for
years now about their struggle already to find sufficient
workforce. Stores will have a harder time keeping the shelf
stocked, and yes, prices will rise, and rise, and rise.
So, hello, America. Get ready for a more expensive food
bill when you're preparing next year's Thanksgiving dinner or
next year's Christmas dinner. And if you've been saving up for
years and years to try to buy your first home, get ready to
wait even longer because construction will slow and prices will
go up.
So, the next time we hear Republicans say that they support
Trump's plan to deport waves, waves of undocumented immigrants,
let's be clear about what comes with that. Higher prices for
American families. They're supporting the forced removal of
millions of hardworking community members. Eighty percent of
whom have lived here 10 years or more. These are not recent
arrivals, people who have lived here for years, if not decades.
They're supporting fear and uncertainty in immigrant
communities that will cause untold numbers of immigrants, no
matter their status, to stay home from work, from school, from
shopping. And they're supporting the punishment of over 5
billion workers who Donald Trump's own Administration declared
to be, quote, ``essential'' to our economy. Essential workers
who fed us and kept us safe during the COVID-19 pandemic.
So, if you agree with the spirit of at least that segment
deserves better, then colleagues join me in supporting the
Citizenship for Essential Workers Act. The essential workers
that the Trump Administration deemed critical to our Nation's
economy and security. Let's provide them with some legal status
upfront and a pathway to earn citizenship because we need them.
Our economy needs farm workers. I think you'd agree. Our
economy needs construction workers, hospitality, and
transportation workers, healthcare workers, and students, and
innovators who help keep our economy and our country thriving.
We don't need the massive deportations that the political
rhetoric of the campaign cycle has brought us, and we certainly
don't need the uncertainty, the fear, and the loss that we'll
feel for years to come.
So, with that Mr. Chairman, I'm looking forward to hearing
from our witnesses and to today's conversation.
Chair Durbin. Thanks, Senator Padilla.
STATEMENT OF HON. JOHN CORNYN,
A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF TEXAS
Senator Cornyn. Thank you, Chairman Durbin. Listening to my
Democratic colleagues, it's as if November 5th never occurred.
That we haven't had an election. That we haven't had a
referendum on the failed border policies of the Biden/Harris
Administration.
Let's be clear, the crisis at the southern border is
entirely a problem caused by the Biden Administration's
policies. It is a manmade disaster. The election, I believe, in
large part, was a referendum on those policies and the American
people spoke decisively rejecting this as the new normal. They
rejected lawlessness as the new normal.
When President Biden came into office, Customs and Border
Protection was apprehending about 70,000 illegal migrants a
month. President Biden came in and have reversed virtually all
of the Trump Administration policies, including canceling our
agreements with Mexico and the Northern Triangle countries to
limit illegal immigration.
President Biden also imposed--attempted to impose a 100-day
moratorium on all deportations. By March, illegal crossings had
ballooned to 170,000 per month up from 70,000, and then climbed
progressively higher from there.
Then the President used his executive authority to
implement new guidelines that made clear to illegal immigrants
that DHS was extremely unlikely to take any action against them
until their conduct became especially egregious. Even so,
criminal aliens were able to get away with a lot before any
action would be taken.
Take for example the tragic case of Rachel Morin, a mother
of five who was raped and murdered by an illegal migrant. Her
killer crossed the border illegally in February 2023. He was
suspected of committing multiple crimes even before he took her
life. This tragedy and others like it could have been prevented
were it not for President Biden's willful refusal to enforce
the law.
The truth of the matter is President Biden's willful
neglect of border of security and public safety has created--
created immense suffering for American families, and his
administration is fully responsible for the fact that we have
to hold this hearing today. The American people are fed up with
the lawlessness at the southern border, and in November, they
tasked Republicans the job of cleaning it up. And that we will
do.
We have a big job ahead of us, no doubt. But by one
estimate, there are already 1.3 to 1.6 million migrants who are
under final orders of deportation who are still in the country.
That strikes me as a good place to start; people who've been
entitled to full due process and hearing in front of an
immigration court and are under final orders of deportation.
What are they still doing here? Well, it's because of the Biden
Administration's willful neglect of the law and enforcement.
By my calculations, Biden Administration has released at
least 3.6 million illegal migrants over the southern border,
and during the same 4 years, Border Patrol recorded an
additional 1.7 million gotaways. Those are people willfully
evading law enforcement. As of 2022, more than 1 million
illegal immigrants have received final orders of removal, but
were still present in the United States and that has now
ballooned to about 1.3 million-plus.
As of July 21st, 2024, ICE, Immigration and Customs
Enforcement, had more than 660,000 criminal aliens on its
national docket. I look forward to doing what the American
people voted for on November 5th, which is to restore the law
and enforcement of the law as the new normal in America, unlike
the last 4 years. And it's going to require us to do a lot of
work to clean up the mess left by the previous administration's
policies.
We have to make it absolutely clear to prospective illegal
immigrants that we will enforce our immigration laws. We will
not accept illegal border crossings as the new normal. What we
will accept is lawful, orderly, humane immigration policies. We
are the most generous country in the world when it comes to
naturalizing people coming to our country, roughly a million
people a year. That's the right way to do it, not the way the
Biden Administration had it done.
We will follow through on the orders of removal by
immigration courts and again, we will not accept lawlessness--
lawlessness and criminality in the United States as the new
normal. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chair Durbin. Thanks, Senator Cornyn. Today, we welcome
five witnesses. I'll introduce the three majority witnesses,
and then turn to Ranking Member Graham to introduce the two
minority witnesses.
Our first witness is Foday Turay--I hope I was close to
pronouncing it correctly.
Mr. Turay. Yes, Senator.
Chair Durbin. Thank you. He is protected from deportation
under the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals program, also
known as DACA created under President Obama. Mr. Turay now
serves as an assistant district attorney in the city of
Philadelphia.
Our second witness is retired Major General Randy Manner,
who served our Nation in a variety of positions in the Pentagon
and around the world for 30 years, including acting vice-chiefs
of the National Guard Bureau in which he oversaw that important
part of our military defense.
Finally, we are joined by Aaron Reichlin-Melnick, a senior
fellow at the American Immigration Council, where he works to
inform the American public about immigration policy and advance
fact-based research into enforcement. Ranking Member Graham,
would you like to introduce your witnesses?
Senator Graham. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Our first witness
is Mr. Art Arthur. He's a resident fellow in law and policy at
the Center for Immigration Studies. Prior to joining the center
in 2017, he served as an immigration judge, was associate
general counsel of Immigration Naturalization Service. He
served as staff director for the National Security Subcommittee
on the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform, and
counsel on the House Judiciary Committee.
He is an expert on immigration policy. He has decided
thousands of cases, and has testified before Congress on more
than 10 occasions. He received his JD from George Washington
University and his bachelor's from University of Virginia.
Ms. Morin is here with us again. She from Aberdeen,
Maryland. She's retired, but currently works part-time as an
office administrator for a church. She has six children, stay-
at-home mom for 25 years, and homeschooled her children. She is
mother of Rachel Morin, and she joins us today to share
Rachel's story.
Real quickly, Senator Cornyn mentioned this, but the man
who stands accused of murdering Rachel was deported three
times, is suspected of murdering a woman in El Salvador where
he came from, broke into a home in California and assaulted a
young girl, who's pending trial like everybody else. He's
innocent to prove until proven guilty, but this case not only
has destroyed your family and broken your heart, Ms. Morin. It
should be a wake up call to the country. And I got the call,
and we're going to do something about this. Thank you.
Chair Durbin. Thanks, Senator Graham. We're going to
proceed as follows. I'm going to swear in the witnesses. They
each have 5 minutes to make presentations and then we open it
to the Senators who have each 5 minutes to ask questions. So,
my first request is for the five witnesses to please stand and
take the oath.
[Witnesses are sworn in.]
Chair Durbin. Let the record reflect that the five
witnesses answered in the affirmative. Mr. Turay, you're first.
STATEMENT OF FODAY TURAY, ASSISTANT
DISTRICT ATTORNEY, PHILADELPHIA DISTRICT
ATTORNEY'S OFFICE, PHILADELPHIA, PENNSYLVANIA
Mr. Turay. Chairman Durbin, Ranking Member Graham, a Member
of this Committee, good morning----
Chair Durbin. Good morning.
Mr. Turay [continuing]. And thank you all for inviting me
to speak with you today. Before I begin, I'd like to express my
deep sympathy to Patty Morin for the horror she and her family
have endured. My prayers are with you and those dedicated
fighting for justice. My name is Foday Turay, I'm a DACA
recipient, a prosecutor, a husband, and a dad. And without
question a patriot.
My love for this country stems from my elementary school
days when I recited the Pledge of Allegiance with all my
classmates each morning. My family came to the United States in
search of freedom and safety. I was born in Sierra Leone at a
time of great civil unrest. When I was 4 years old, my father
was killed, and my mother, and grandmother, and I fled to
Guinea, a neighboring country.
My mother was able to migrate to the United States, but I
stayed with my grandmother who died shortly after my mother
left. I came to the United States on my seventh birthday in
2003. I have been here ever since. I learned that I was
undocumented when I tried to get a driver's license. It was one
of the worst days of my life. In 2012, I was drawn a lifeline
when DACA was announced. Thanks to DACA, I was able to graduate
from college and attend law school on a full-merit scholarship.
I now work full-time for the district attorney's office in
Philadelphia.
During this time, I met and married my beautiful wife,
Jaxhiel, who is here with me today, and we bought a house, and
we had our son. The opportunity to address all of you on behalf
of DACA recipients and mixed status families like mine is not
one I take for granted. My wife and I have spent years building
community, and we're extremely anxious about what the future
might bring.
I feel the consequences of mass deportation on a personal
level, on a community level, and on a societal level. On a
personal level, my wife is here, and I have no family in Sierra
Leone to help sustain me. I'm currently the breadwinner in my
family. If I were to be deported, my wife and our son would be
left, without to pay the mortgage.
My son would also be without a father. My deportation would
hurt my own U.S. citizen mother and my wife's extended family,
all of whom are United States citizens. My wife is the primary
caregiver of her mother who is legally disabled and has a tumor
in her brain. My wife's mother requires chemotherapy injection
each month in order to control the size of the tumor on her
brain. If I were to be deported, my wife would no longer be
able to play such a critical role in her mother's life.
My wife should not have to choose between caring for her
mother, who's legally disabled and has a brain tumor, and me.
My brother-in-law who--my brother-in-law should not have to
choose between re-enlisting in the Marines next year and
risking his mother's health if my wife is not here to care for
her. My brother-in-law has been serving in the United State
Marines since he graduated high school.
On a community level, my taxes help fund my community's
road, school and overall well-being. If I were to be ripped
from my community, the taxes I pay would go with me. My wife
and I are also devoted Christians with strong ties to our
church. Finally, the people of Philadelphia would be hurt if I
were to disappear. Victims of crimes whose cases I prosecute
will lose an ally in their fight for justice.
On a societal level, mass deportation would be devastating.
As a prosecutor, I know how delicate the ties between law
enforcement and immigrants can be. If immigrants are afraid to
cooperate with the police or prosecutors, like myself, because
they're afraid of deportation, we all suffer. When you have ICE
agents patrolling courthouses and police station, you create a
category of people who are less willing to report crimes and
less willing to cooperate with law enforcement in solving
crimes.
Mass deportation hurts all of us, our family, our
community, and our society. We owe it to ourselves and to our
country to reject mass deportation and look for a solution for
DREAMers whose lives have become deeply rooted in the country
and strengthened our borders.
DACA recipient and long-term undocumented individuals in
mixed status families have become pillars in their homes.
Removing them will place hardship on U.S. citizens like my
mother-in-law, U.S. citizenship--U.S. citizens, like my wife
who depends on our contribution in the house. This will cause
an incentive for those U.S. citizens to turn to social welfare
programs due to one less income in the home.
After more than two decades here, I can absolutely state
that this is my home. I'm part of the fabric of my community
and they're part of me. The Federal Government may not have
fully recognized this truth yet, but I long for the day when
they do. Until that day comes, I'll continue to contribute
everything to my house, to my mother-in-law, to my son, to my
wife, and to my entire family.
Thank you, all so much for your time and attention to this
critical issue.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Turay appears as a
submission for the record.]
Chair Durbin. Thank you, Mr. Turay. Mr. Arthur.
STATEMENT OF ART ARTHUR, RESIDENT
FELLOW IN LAW AND POLICY, CENTER FOR
IMMIGRATION STUDIES, WASHINGTON, DC
Mr. Arthur. Chairman Durbin, Ranking Member Graham, and
Members of the Committee. Thank you for inviting me today. My
name is Andrew Arthur, and I'm the resident fellow in law and
policy at the Center for Immigration Studies, a nonpartisan
think tank here in Washington.
Respectfully and humbly, I believe that today's hearing,
which focuses on the immigration enforcement policies of the
incoming Trump Administration is premature because, as of yet,
the incoming administration has not announced its policies.
Given that, however, the Committee should assume two
things. First, that the policies the new administration will
implement will comport with law. And second, that those
policies will implement enforcement mandates Congress has set
forth in the Immigration and Nationality Act.
As the Supreme Court has made clear, the principle that
Congress is entrusted, exclusively, with the formulation of
policies relating to the entry of aliens and the right to
remain here, quote, ``has become about as firmly embedded in
the legislative and judicial tissues of our body politic as any
aspect of our government,'' close quote.
Right now, the U.S. immigration system is at a breaking
point. The number of cases pending before the immigration
courts has nearly tripled in the past five fiscal years, and
that's after 700,000 cases involving putatively removable
aliens were terminated, dismissed, or closed. A record 10.8
million-plus inadmissible applicants for admission have been
encountered nationwide since FY 2021. And between releases and
gotaways, nearly 8 million inadmissible aliens have entered our
country over the past 4 years.
The sad state of our immigration system is directly
attributable to policy decisions that have been made at the
local, State, and most critically, Federal level, not by
Congress that has plenary power over--under our constitutional
order over immigration, but by an executive branch that has
usurped Congress's authority.
That has, needlessly, rendered the American people
vulnerable to predation by criminals and aliens who pose a
national security risk. And as the chairman of the Federal
Reserve has admitted, it has dampened wages for American
workers, both citizens and lawful immigrants, and impacted the
unemployment rate.
Most critically, however, it has ruined the faith of the
American people and the credibility of our immigration system.
As Barbara Jordan, civil rights icon, former Member of
Congress, and at the time, chairman of the U.S. Commission on
Immigration Reform told Congress in 1995, quote, ``Credibility
in immigration policy can be summed up in one sentence. Those
who should get in, get in. Those who should be kept out, are
kept out. And those who should not be here will be required to
leave,'' close quote.
With deportations, including deportations of criminal
aliens plunging over the past 4 years, Senator Graham's chart
showed, it's little wonder that as Gallup reported in July, a
majority of Americans want an immigration reduction, reversing
a 19-year trend.
The law mandates that illegal migrants be detained, but
that law has been ignored. The law mandates that criminal, that
alien criminals be removed, but that law has been ignored. And
most crucially, the law mandates that foreign nationals who
want to come here do so legally. But that law has only been
honored in the breach.
This massive migrant surge has allowed our elected
officials to ignore the fact that 22.5 percent of working-age
American men are out of the workforce. A 7.6 percent increase
compared to just 2000, and 11.2 percent more than in 1960.
Those non-working Americans are more vulnerable to addiction,
disease, and, quote, ``deaths of despair,'' close quote.
Two weeks ago, in the United Kingdom, Prime Minister Kier
Starmer resolved to address the immigration source of such
issues in Great Britain, and it's well past time that our
government did the same.
In his 1995 State of the Union address, President Bill
Clinton explained, quote, ``All Americans, not only in the
States most heavily affected, but in every place in this
country, are rightly disturbed by the large numbers of illegal
aliens entering our country. The jobs they hold might otherwise
be held by citizens or legal immigrants.
The public service they use impose burdens on our
taxpayers, that's why our administration has moved aggressively
to secure our borders more by hiring a record number of new
border guards, by deporting twice as many criminal aliens as
ever before, by cracking down on illegal hiring, by borrowing
welfare benefits to illegal aliens,'' close quote.
Change the tenses, and that's pretty much what President
Trump promised to do when he was Candidate Trump on the
campaign trail.
Thank you. Truly appreciate the honor, and I look forward
to your questions.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Arthur appears as a
submission for the record.]
Chair Durbin. Thanks Mr. Arthur. General Manner.
STATEMENT OF RANDY MANNER, MAJOR GENERAL,
RETIRED, UNITED STATES ARMY, RETIRED,
ALEXANDRIA, VIRGINIA
General Manner. Chairman Durbin, Ranking Member Graham,
Members of the Committee, I thank you for your invitation to
speak today.
For over 35 years, I served our Nation in both the regular
Army and in the National Guard. Prior to retiring from the Army
as a major general, I served as a deputy commanding general of
the United States Third Army in Kuwait, as the acting vice-
chief of the National Guard Bureau, and as the acting and
deputy director of the Defense Threat Reduction Agency.
During the time I served, I saw firsthand that our military
force is the envy of the world. It is respected by our allies
and by people around the world who want to live free of
oppression. It is feared by our enemies and those who would do
us harm.
Our military members come from every possible background
representing every State, every race, ethnic group, and
religion. But when they come together in the military, they are
molded together in a team expected to embody the values which
make America great; duty, honor, integrity, respect, selfless
service, loyalty, personal courage, and excellence.
President-elect Trump has announced his intent to use the
U.S. military to execute his mass deportation plan. I'm gravely
concerned that placing our military in this role could cause
significant harm to both the institution of our armed forces
and to service members themselves.
There are four significant risks that I want to emphasize.
First, using military assets for mass deportations would
negatively impact the military's readiness and capability to
accomplish its core mission of national defense. Our military
is engaged in over 160 countries around the world. They are
focused on responding to potential threats from China, Russia,
and other competitors, strengthening interoperability with
allies and partners, and taking care of our servicemen and
their families.
Our National Guard units are stretched thin, responding to
natural disasters at home, while also regularly deploying
overseas in active-duty status. Additional training or
deployments to support deportation operations would absolutely
harm operational readiness and reduce the military's ability to
counter adversaries or respond to crises in combat.
My second concern is that the military is simply not
trained to do this mission. Immigration enforcement is the
responsibility of Federal law enforcement agencies like ICE and
CBP. These agencies' personnel regularly interact with migrants
and U.S. citizens. They are extensively trained in the
appropriate application of immigration law, the protection of
civil rights and civil liberties, and care of migrants in
custody.
The U.S. military is the best trained in the world for its
war-fighting mission, but it is neither trained or equipped for
immigration enforcement. Most active-duty armed forces receive
no training for domestic law enforcement situations. A small
number of National Guard units receive a mere 4 to 8 hours of
civil disturbance training per year. This lack of training and
experience greatly increases the risk of significant and
potentially deadly mistakes in a charged operational
environment.
My third concern is the effect on recruiting, retention,
and morale. The military is already facing its most challenging
recruitment environment in 50 years. Involvement of the
military in a politically charged domestic deportation efforts
would only add to those challenges. It would separate service
members from their families, their jobs, and their communities
for extended periods of time in order to engage in a highly
controversial mission for which service members would feel ill-
equipped and trained. That's a recipe for disillusionment and a
poor advertisement for political--potential recruits.
Finally, involving the military in a politically charged
domestic issue like mass deportation would erode public trust
in the military. Americans trust our military because it
protects all of us, regardless of our politics, from the
possibility of foreign aggression.
When the military is tasked with carrying out domestic
policies that may be controversial to some, it undermines the
foundation of that trust. That, in turn, will increase risks in
morale, recruitment, retention, and readiness. And all of these
impacts carry serious consequences for our national security.
Gentlemen, for these reasons--and ladies, for these
reasons, I strongly encourage any future Presidential
administration to keep immigration enforcement and our military
separate.
Thank you, and I look forward to your questions.
[The prepared statement of General Manner appears as a
submission for the record.]
Chair Durbin. Thanks, General Manner, Ms. Morin.
STATEMENT OF PATTY MORIN, ABERDEEN, MARYLAND
Ms. Morin. Chairman, Ranking Member, Senators, thank you
for this opportunity to come speak to you. I really appreciate
it. As you can tell from my introduction, I'm not a politician.
I'm a mother. I raised six children. I have 25 grandchildren. I
have four great-grandchildren.
The day that we got the phone call that my daughter had
been murdered, I was--I'm sure you've heard this before, but I
was in Kentucky. We had a grandbaby that had passed away. And
when I got the phone call, the detective said, ``Ms. Morin, we
found your daughter's body.''
At the time, all I knew was that my daughter was dead. When
I went to meet with a detective and we had come back from
Kentucky, I was told that she was beaten so badly that her body
was blanketed in bruises, that she was strangled, that she was
raped, and that she was stuffed into a drain pipe.
The person--the person that they alleged did this was an
illegal immigrant from El Salvador that was a gotaway. He had
already--they already had an Interpol warrant for him in El
Salvador for murdering a woman. He had attacked a 9-year-old
and her mother in California. And he waited on the trail that
day that our family has walked for 25 years, and snapped,
dragged my daughter off the trail, and did these horrendous,
brutal things. This is what she looked like before that day.
[Picture shown.]
She's a beautiful woman. But more than that, you can tell
from looking at her, just the light that comes out of her. She
was a happy person. She loved her children. She was a hard
worker. My daughter is like so many other American girls that
go about their life and they're just caught unawares from
behind, dragged off the main road trail, whatever, strangled,
raped, murdered. Some have been found, some have not.
I realized that deportation and illegal immigration has
become such a big issue. And rightly so. We have Americans that
are dying every day, and law enforcement don't want to give you
the true numbers because they don't want the public to panic.
In our town, we've had two murders by illegal immigrants.
Maryland, is a sanctuary State, and we have sanctuary
cities. I was last told that crime in Maryland has increased by
850 percent over the last 4 years. We have 54,000--over 54,000
convicted criminals, illegal immigrants that are criminals in
our country at this very moment.
I think deportation is necessary. The American people
should not feel afraid to live in their own homes. When I was
14 years old, and I don't know if anybody knows this, but when
I was 14 years old, a criminally insane man came into my house,
kidnapped me, made me walk 60 miles toward the Canadian border
while raping me at night. I have some idea of what it's like to
be a victim of a violent crime where law enforcement did not
believe that they were going to find me alive. So, I have some
understanding of what my daughter suffered.
And when I was at that funeral home and saw my daughter's
body, because the case, the hearing's not until April, I can't
tell you in detail, but I can tell you this one thing; that my
daughter suffered so terribly in a very brutal and violent way.
And these types of immigrants should not be in our country, and
because we have open borders, and because everyone is allowed
in, and because the law is not being carried out at the
borders. If they had done a DNA swab the three times they
encountered this person that's allegedly accused of killing my
daughter, they would've known that he had an Interpol warrant
for murder in his country.
We need to follow the laws that are already on the book. We
need to close our borders. We need to protect American
families. We need to protect our women and children, which are
the most vulnerable in this country. And I do understand the
economics that everyone is talking about. I do understand the
military position, but I think that you should put American
citizens first.
We are the ones that pay your paycheck. We are the ones
that pay taxes. We are the ones that believe that when you went
into office, that you were going to keep your word, and that
you were the man or the woman for the job at the time that
would uphold our values. We are a constitutional republic for
the people, by the people. We, the people, have put you the
people into office and you should be doing everything you can
to protect us. That's why we put you there.
A thought that I had just today coming on the train over
here, is that when you look at a tree and you say, ``Oh, that's
an apple tree.'' You say that because you see that their apple
is the fruit that's growing on the tree. It's the same thing
with a man's character. It's by your actions that a person
knows what their character is like. And I think one of the
reasons why 87 percent of Americans voted for Donald Trump is
because they have seen the character by the fruit that
President Biden and Kamala Harris have produced these last 4
years. Thank you.
[The prepared statement of Ms. Morin appears as a
submission for the record.]
Chair Durbin. Thank you, Ms. Morin. Mr. Reichlin-Melnick.
STATEMENT OF AARON REICHLIN-MELNICK,
SENIOR FELLOW, AMERICAN IMMIGRATION
COUNCIL, WASHINGTON, DC
Mr. Reichlin-Melnick. Chairman Durbin, Ranking Member
Graham, and distinguished Members of the Committee, my name is
Aaron Reichlin-Melnick, and I'm the senior fellow at the
American Immigration Council.
At the Council, we have long studied the population of
immigrants in the United States, and provide detailed estimates
of their demographics and economic contributions on our map,
the Impact website. Today, there are at least 13 million
undocumented immigrants in the United States. President-elect
Trump has promised a mass deportation campaign with the stated
intent of rounding up and deporting every single one of them.
So, who are they? Well, most have been here for at least 15
years, having entered before the Obama administration. Over 4.8
million people have been here for 25 years or more with no path
to permanent legal status. No line for them to stand in. Most
undocumented immigrants have spent decades living, working, and
putting down roots all at constant risk of deportation.
Nearly all are either employed or attending school. Some
have permission to work legally. Most do not, putting them at
increased risk of exploitation. They're farm workers, meat
packers, cooks, waiters, construction workers, factory workers,
delivery people, home health aides, nurses, teachers, artists,
writers, musicians, entrepreneurs, and yes, even lawyers.
Undocumented immigrants are also more than their jobs. They
are parents, spouses, partners, brothers and sisters,
grandparents, and grandchildren, loved ones, and friends to
millions of U.S. citizens and permanent residents. Five million
U.S. citizen children have at least one undocumented parent. In
an average public school classroom of 25 children, at least two
have an undocumented immigrant parent at risk of deportation.
While president-elect Trump talks about targeting
criminals, over 90 percent have no prior criminal record
whatsoever, of the small minority that do the most common prior
convictions are traffic offenses or immigration offenses.
Efforts to ramp up deportations would sweep in tens of
thousands of people each year who have no or minimal criminal
legal system contact.
We know this because this is what happened during the first
Trump Administration. When there were no enforcement
priorities, everyone was an enforcement priority. And the
single largest group of the increased arrests under the Trump
Administration was people with no criminal record.
Beyond splitting families apart, a mass deportation
campaign would be a costly mistake for American taxpayers. When
we account for the enormous capital investment, infrastructure,
and hiring necessary to arrest, detain, process, and remove 1
million people per year, we estimate that mass deportations
would cost $968 billion in total, enough to instead construct
2.9 million new homes or fund headstart for 79 years.
Mass deportations would also cause economic chaos. As
millions are expelled, the U.S. population and labor force
would shrink. So, too, with the economy. Prices would rise in
sectors with significant undocumented workforces. Building,
maintaining, and repairing houses would become more expensive,
as would groceries, restaurants, travel, and childcare. Every
American would feel the pinch of inflation.
Overall, we estimate that a mass deportation campaign would
lead to a loss in total GDP of 4.2 to 6.8 percent at minimum,
as much as the Great Recession. And just like then, many
Americans would lose their jobs. Even an attempt to deport
millions of people will have repercussions. After all,
undocumented immigrants are not just producers, they're also
consumers. Collectively, they hold over a quarter trillion
dollars in annual purchasing power. If millions are deported or
otherwise forced to leave, American businesses will close, not
just from a lack of workers, but also from a lack of customers.
A large-scale mass deportation campaign will also increase
exploitation while it is carried out. Unscrupulous employers
will dangle deportation over any of their workers who dare to
push back and will have the full force of the U.S. Government
to support their threats.
But mass deportation is not the only option. Congress could
instead create a new path to permanent legal status, allowing
many people already living here to file an application, go
through a background check, pay a fee, and get their papers in
order.
When the Council studied the impact of Reagan's 1986
amnesty, we concluded that legalization would be the cheapest
Federal workforce development and anti-poverty program to for
children in history. It would also raise overall wages, create
new jobs, increase tax revenues, and create a level playing
field and fair competition for U.S. workers. The President-
elect's mass deportation plans would crash the American
economy, break up families, and take a hammer to the
foundations of our society by deporting nearly 4 percent of the
entire U.S. population.
But Congress has a choice. Instead of going down that path,
we can instead crack down on exploitation, strengthen millions
of families, and build American prosperity by providing
undocumented immigrants a way to fix their papers. The choice
is clear.
Thank you, and I look forward to your questions.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Reichlin-Melnick appears as
a submission for the record.]
Chair Durbin. Thank you very much. Each of us now has 5
minutes of questions, and I'm going to start mine with Mr.
Turay. Mr. Turay, are you undocumented?
Mr. Turay. Yes.
Chair Durbin. Pardon me? Say it again.
Mr. Turay. Yes, Senator.
Chair Durbin. And why are you undocumented?
Mr. Turay. I came here from a civil unrest. I had no
choice. My life was in danger. My mom told me the story when I
was trying to get my driver's license.
Chair Durbin. How old were you when you came?
Mr. Turay. I came here when I was 7 years old.
Chair Durbin. What do you do today?
Mr. Turay. I'm a prosecutor. I represent victims of crimes
and go after heinous people that have committed crimes against
the Morins family.
Chair Durbin. You've talked about Ms. Morin's situation a
minute or so earlier, but the perpetrator of the crime against
her daughter, Rachel, would be the type of person that you
would prosecute?
Mr. Turay. Yes, Senator.
Chair Durbin. I think there is a fundamental difference
we're being asked to acknowledge here. Is there a difference
between Mr. Turay and the animal who attacked Ms. Morin's
daughter? Of course, there is. This man for a living is
prosecuting criminals. This other individual is a clear
criminal with a record. When we say massive deportation, should
we consider them the same because they're both undocumented?
Let me ask you this, Mr. Reichlin-Melnick. Most Americans,
when you talk about the cost to the government in billions of
dollars for this deportation are going to say what most of us
would fundamentally say, ``Keep me safe. I don't care what the
hell it costs.'' So, is it realistic? If we're talking about a
massive deportation for us to be looking at Federal budgets for
financing?
Mr. Reichlin-Melnick. I think it's important for people to
understand that ICE already goes after people with criminal
records all the time. And, in fact, that has been the priority
of the previous two to three or more Presidential
administrations and is what Congress sets.
So, the overwhelming majority of people who would be the
targets of a mass deportation campaign do not have criminal
records. They are people who have been living otherwise law-
abiding lives in this country, living, working, and in many
cases paying taxes.
Chair Durbin. So, you estimate at least in one publication
here, that the cost of massive deportation would be $316
billion.
Mr. Reichlin-Melnick. At a minimum. In fact, if you look at
it over the course of an 11-year operation, it could be as much
as $1 trillion.
Chair Durbin. And that's for conducting sufficient arrest,
detaining immigrants en masse, legal processing, and removal
for those four categories.
Mr. Reichlin-Melnick. That's right. And we're looking at
hundreds of billions of dollars to carry out and deportation of
4 percent of the U.S. population.
Chair Durbin. So, if you want to do a massive deportation
to get Mr. Turay out of this country, you're talking about a
massive amount of money that has to be spent?
Mr. Reichlin-Melnick. Enormous sums.
Chair Durbin. And we hear from General Manner the impact it
could have on our National Guard and military if they are given
this responsibility. Have you taken that into consideration?
Mr. Reichlin-Melnick. We weren't even able to account for
the costs to the military. So, you should consider our
estimates to be conservative. The actual costs would likely be
significantly higher because there are so many factors that we
couldn't even attempt to estimate.
Chair Durbin. You are right. To carry out over 13 million
arrests in a short period of time would require somewhere
between 220,000 and 409,000 new government employees and law
enforcement officers. Nearly impossible given current hiring
challenges across law enforcement agencies. Could you explain
that?
Mr. Reichlin-Melnick. Well, right now, ICE only has about
8,500 officers in the entire agency, and less than a thousand
are assigned to fugitive operations. Whose job it is to go out
into the community and arrest people. But because the
overwhelming majority of undocumented immigrants have no
interaction with the criminal justice system, they have no
criminal offenses.
That means that to arrest them would require going out into
the community, finding them, and rounding them up. And in order
to do that, would require an enormous investment in personnel
far beyond any law enforcement operation ever conducted in the
United States history.
Chair Durbin. So, if we were determined to remove Mr.
Turay, the prosecutor from Philadelphia, from America and send
him back to Sierra Leone, or someplace like that, you're
talking about massive amounts of money. If we are to focus on
the truly dangerous people in this country to make sure that
they are removed, and should be, that is a lesser amount for
sure?
Mr. Reichlin-Melnick. That's right. And, in fact, if you
look at ICE's own data, non-detained docket, which has already
been cited by several Members here, that is looking at about
1.2 percent or less of people who have any sort of serious
violent offense. And, of course, the resources involved there
would be much smaller than trying to deport 13 million people.
Chair Durbin. Making a priority the dangerous people who
are in this country, or those who are here illegally and could
be dangerous, certainly, is a much different assignment than
saying massive deportations. Thank you, Mr. Melnick. Senator
Graham.
Senator Graham. Does anybody disagree with the following
statement: America has a right to limit how many people can
come into our country? Nobody disagrees with that. Good. Mr.
Turay, very successful life. You have much to be proud of.
During the 4-years of the Trump Administration, were you ever--
anybody suggest you should be deported?
Mr. Turay. Thank you, Senator, for the question. No.
Senator Graham. Okay. Do you support deporting the 1.2
million people who have been through the system, have a final
order of removal? Do you support them leaving
Mr. Turay. Senator, I'm a prosecutor. I----
Senator Graham. No, no, no, no. I didn't ask you if you're
prosecutor. Do you support them leaving?
Mr. Turay. I support people that have committed serious
crimes----
Senator Graham. Do you support the people who have gone
through the system, been denied, had their day in court, final
order of removal, do you support them leaving?
Mr. Turay. If you have committed----
Senator Graham. As a prosecutor, as a rule of law person?
Mr. Turay. If you have committed a serious crime in this
country----
Senator Graham. That, that's not the question. So, is it
your belief that every non-criminal in the world can come to
America?
Mr. Turay. No.
Senator Graham. How many people want to come to America
that are non-criminals? Probably hundreds of millions. And I
understand why. It's a great country. So, my point is, if
you're not willing to say that we're going to deport you after
you've had your full day in court, you're facing a final order
of deportation, we're going to incentivize people to come
forever.
Mr. Melnick, is that, that right? How many people did
Ronald Reagan provide amnesty to?
Mr. Reichlin-Melnick. Estimates are roughly 2.7 to 3
million.
Senator Graham. How many illegal immigrants are in the
country today?
Mr. Reichlin-Melnick. I said roughly 13 million of them. I
don't know the exact estimates.
Senator Graham. Okay. I would say that the last thing we
want to do is give amnesty to people here now because we'll be
overrun. Mr. Arthur, would you describe the last 4 years as
mass illegal immigration coming to our borders?
Mr. Turay. I believe that that's fair characterization,
Senator.
Senator Graham. Does anybody disagree that the last 4 years
has resulted in mass illegal immigration directed toward
America? Because if this is not mass, what the hell would be?
Now, how do you answer mass illegal immigration? You start
enforcing the laws, Ms. Morin said, and you start sending
people back who've had their day in court. You can't answer the
question. And I respect you. You've been able to take the
opportunity to make something of yourself, but we're passing on
just constant disorder.
If you can't say you should be deported after you've had a
full hearing, everything been available to, and you lose, and
it's hard to say you need to go, then we don't have an
immigration system.
General, how many people have been deployed to the border
by Governors to assist in border security from the National
Guard?
General Manner. Sir, I don't have that information.
Senator Graham. Okay. It's thousands. Is that a legal use
of the National Guard?
General Manner. It is not the illegal use of the National
Guard.
Senator Graham. It's legal, right?
General Manner. That is correct.
Senator Graham. Yes, I agree with you there. What's the
largest cause of death in America for young people? Does
anybody know? Mr. Arthur?
Mr. Arthur. Drug poisoning, overdose deaths.
Senator Graham. Coming from a drug called fentanyl, mainly?
Mr. Arthur. That is correct, sir
Senator Graham. Okay. Where does that drug come from?
Mr. Arthur. That drug, reports indicate that it's made from
precursors that come from the People's Republic of China,
assembled in Mexico, and largely smuggled into the United
States over the southwest.
Senator Graham. General Manner, do you consider illegal
immigration a national security problem?
General Manner. I believe that it is something that ICE and
CBP needs to address.
Senator Graham. No, I asked you, is it a national security
problem?
General Manner. I think it's a concern, yes.
Senator Graham. Okay. I do, too. And they are the highest
number of people on the terrorist watch list in our country
today. At the end of the day, the number of people being killed
in America by drug poisoning is coming from labs and cartels in
Mexico. General Manner, does the President have the authority
to attack a drug lab in Mexico that's making fentanyl to kill
American citizens?
General Manner. I am not a legal expert, Senator.
Senator Graham. Okay. And I do not know. So, here's what I
would say. I think we need to be tough, compassionate, but end
this crap. If you're trying to poison America, you're a drug
cartel, your days are numbered. We're coming after you,
hopefully working with Mexico. If you've had your full day in
court and you lost, it's time for you to go and try to do it
right.
We have to break this endless cycle of having policies that
entice people to come to our country illegally, because that is
the lack--we're losing sovereignty and losing control over our
Nation. There are too many people being hurt from this out-of-
control system. So, how do you deal with mass, illegal
immigration? You start with mass deportation of people who
shouldn't be here.
Mr. Turay, I think President Trump was pretty clear about
DACA, but what do we tell the kids who've been brought here in
the last year who are 7 years old? Do you ever break this
chain? So, I'm hoping Mr. Chairman, that once we regain control
of our border and try to shut down the poisoning of America, we
can have a logical, rational discussion about DREAMers and
others. But until we control that border, until we get control
over the crime coming into this country and the poisoning of
America, that discussion cannot happen.
I've worked with you and others for decades, for--yes,
really, decades, to fix a broken immigration system. The way
the Biden Administration's handled this border problem has
created a nightmare for our country. And there's a reason 70
percent of the people want deportations. It's not cost. They
want to bring order to chaos. Thank you.
Chair Durbin. Senator Klobuchar.
Senator Klobuchar. Thank you very much. Mr. Chairman, thank
you for having this hearing. And I know that you've worked with
Senator Graham in the past on the DREAMers issue, and I hope
that work continues.
And I would start with what you said, Mr. Arthur, just
about how we don't know yet how this is going to come down. And
I do actually appreciate that Senator Durbin did this hearing,
because I think we've got to start anticipating it, and start
having these discussions.
Now, I personally don't want to have what happened last
time. I went over a weekend, I got calls from a family in
Lebanon who was ready to bring their little baby that they had
adopted to the U.S. and were stopped practically at the airport
with a little kid with a flag sweatshirt on. And we were
eventually able through officials in the past Trump
Administration to get that baby adopted and is now a thriving
child in the U.S.
And so, I, Ms. Morin, so appreciate you being here and your
strength coming forward. I believe there is a way we could do
this right. I'm not certain how this is going to head, but I
just want you to know that based on the work that was being
done on a bipartisan basis at this last year, that there are
people that want to get to this point where we get this order
at the border, where we put the funding into enforcement, into
things like Border Patrol agents.
And this was legislation that I'm sure not everyone agreed
with on both sides, but a proposed legislation that Senator
Lankford had negotiated that was supported by a number of
people. And, hopefully, that can be at least a starting point
for discussing it, even though it didn't go anywhere last year.
And that was, you know, increasing ICE detention capacity.
It was looking at increasing border management. And I
personally have taken a lot of grief for my support for COPS
Reauthorization and adding resources to law enforcement, which
I think is so necessary with the fentanyl issue.
But I think that there is a way, I note that in that
agreement, that proposal that was made, as well as the proposal
that Senator Rounds negotiated that Senator Graham has been
involved in the past on path to citizenship for DREAMers on
doing something about the temporary status people, on looking
at people who have not committed crimes, and what we can do to
make sure our workforce is strong. I think there is a path
here, and I'm just continuing to focus on where we can go.
And I would ask you, Mr. Turay, and your story was moving
in its own way. You've lived in the U.S. for 21 years, you're
now married to an American citizen, have an 18-month-old son
who's also a U.S. citizen. And I watched President-elect's
interview on Meet the Press this weekend, and he did talk about
working with Democrats on the DREAMer issue, which I
appreciated. But that same time, then he talked about the only
way not to break up a family is you keep them together and then
you send them all back. I'm not certain he meant that with
DREAMers, but what would happen to your family if you were sent
back?
Mr. Turay. I mean, my family would face serious
consequences. As I noted in my testimony, my wife is a U.S.
citizen. Our entire family are U.S. citizens. Not only would
this impact me on a personal level, but it would impact the
U.S. citizens that have built their lives around me, U.S.
citizens like my mother-in-law who has--who is legally disabled
and has a brain tumor that requires her to take chemo in the
United States. If my wife is not around to care for her, if my
wife is not around to be there for her mother, it's going to
cause serious hardship on her life and potentially cause her to
lose her life.
And, also, my brother-in-law has been serving in the
Marines since he graduated from high school. He wants to
reenlist in the Marines next year. However, he has to choose
between the love for his country or the love for his mom, and
come back home and take care of his mom. So, not only is this
impacting me on a personal level, it's impacting the people
around us that have built their life around me.
I've been in this country for so long. And to think that
you can just remove an individual who United State citizens
have built their lives around would not cause hardship on other
people around them, it's just disheartening.
Senator Klobuchar. Okay. Mr. Reichlin-Melnick, could you go
through just one more time the statistics and then I'm out of
time here. And if the focus was on enforcement, you know, as
well as the border, and going after the people that we know
have criminal records here, just that kind of money we'd be
talking about if we wanted to focus our efforts on that group,
as well as, I would add to that, it's also going to be more
border protection, which we know we need?
Mr. Reichlin-Melnick. Yes, Senator. So, we estimate that an
on average, a single deportation costs the U.S. Government, in
today's fund money, slightly under $24,000. So, if we're
looking at deporting 13 million people----
Senator Klobuchar. No, I didn't ask----
Mr. Reichlin-Melnick [continuing]. That adds up to----
Senator Klobuchar [continuing]. I'm actually trying to get
us to a solution that might work here. Let's see--I remember
when you were talking to Senator Durbin, and you talked about
if you focused on the group that we know have criminal records
that are still out there, that kind of cost and what that would
be.
Mr. Reichlin-Melnick. I have to run the exact numbers for
you, or I'm happy to get those for you. But it is substantially
less expensive than what President Trump has repeatedly said he
would do, which is aim to deport every single person here,
regardless of whether they have a conviction or not.
Senator Klobuchar. So, if we could get that and follow up
later, because I think that there'd be some widespread
agreement that if we're going to start somewhere, for one
thing, we must begin with these most serious offenders that are
out there and get the money set aside for that. Do more at the
border, try to do something positive here with DREAMers and
people that are contributing so greatly to our economy, and
trying to figure this out.
We have done this, tried this several times and had
agreements with Democrats and Republicans in the Senate. Not
everyone--not everyone on the left, right? Not everyone, but
I'm just hoping we can get to a place like that. So, thank you
very much.
Chair Durbin. Thanks, Senator Klobuchar. Senator Kennedy.
Senator Kennedy. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Arthur, you
are with the Center for Immigration Studies, is that right?
Mr. Arthur. That's correct, Senator.
Senator Kennedy. And that's a nonpartisan think tank, is
it?
Mr. Arthur. It is, sir.
Senator Kennedy. Okay. The border is an open bleeding
wound, isn't it?
Mr. Arthur. That's a fair way to characterize what's been
going on for the last 4 years.
Senator Kennedy. The southern border is chaotic by design,
isn't it?
Mr. Arthur. Yes, it is. I've been covering the border for
three decades, and yes, it's pretty chaotic.
Senator Kennedy. Will it be fair to say that the broken
southern border is manmade?
Mr. Arthur. It would be fair to say that, sir, based on
policies that have been implemented.
Senator Kennedy. And that man's name is Joe Biden, isn't
it?
Mr. Arthur. That would be a fair assessment, yes, Senator.
Senator Kennedy. Under President Biden, if you wait in line
for legal immigration, you're a chump, aren't you?
Mr. Arthur. When you look at the benefits that have been
given to people, and the speed at which they've been released
into the United States, I would be chagrined if I were waiting.
Senator Kennedy. You're a chump, aren't you?
Mr. Arthur. Yes, sir.
Senator Kennedy. General----
General Manner. Yes, sir.
Senator Kennedy [continuing]. You believe in open borders,
don't you?
General Manner. I believe in the rule of law, sir.
Senator Kennedy. Right. And it makes you angry that
President Bi--President Trump does not believe in open borders,
doesn't it?
General Manner. Senator, I'm not here to discuss
immigration policy. I'm here to discuss whether or not we use
the military to enforce it.
Senator Kennedy. And it makes you angry that most Americans
don't believe in open borders, doesn't it?
General Manner. Not in the slightest, sir. Again, I'm not
here to discuss the immigration policy.
Senator Kennedy. Duty, honor, respect. You talked about
that----
General Manner. Yes, sir.
Senator Kennedy [continuing]. In your opening statement.
On October 14th of this year, you went on CNN. I want to
read you what you said. Make sure I'm accurate. Here's what you
said. ``President Trump is not like any sane leader. I'm very
proud of General Milley for saying that President Trump is a
total fascist. To Bob Woodward, if he is chairman of the Joint
Chiefs is calling the President the fascist. I'm so proud of
him for breaking that barrier. The challenge is because most
MAGA Republicans, they don't understand what fascism is. The
reality is that they are, in fact, fascists themselves.'' Did I
read that accurately?
General Manner. Senator, I am happy to discuss my personal
perspectives with you separately at any time. That's not the
purpose of the hearing today.
Senator Kennedy. Did I read that accurately?
General Manner. I believe so, yes.
Senator Kennedy. Yes. You think you're smarter than the
American people, don't you?
General Manner. Absolutely not, Senator. I am here to
discuss the use of the military as part of this mass
deportation.
Senator Kennedy. You think you're more virtuous than the
American people, don't you, General?
General Manner. Senator, I'm insulted by your comment.
Senator Kennedy. Duty, honor, and respect. You talked about
that in your opening statement, didn't you?
General Manner. Yes, sir.
Senator Kennedy. Ms. Morin said--I wrote down her words.
She said by their actions, you know, what someone's character
is like. You agree with that?
General Manner. Senator, for 35 years, I served my country
with absolute honor and distinction, and I will continue to do
so.
Senator Kennedy. You agree with what Ms. Morin said?
General Manner. Of course.
Senator Kennedy. Mr.--got a few minutes left.
Chair Durbin. Twenty-three seconds.
Senator Kennedy. Well, actually, you let Ms. Klobuchar go
well over, so I'm assuming you'll extend me the same order.
ChairDurbin. I'll give you the same minute I gave to her.
Senator Kennedy. You gave it 1 minute 20. I timed it.
Chair Durbin. You're using----
Senator Kennedy. I watched you like a hawk, Dick.
[Laughter.]
Mr. Mel--Mr. Reichlin-Melnick, you believe in open borders,
too, don't you?
Mr. Reichlin-Melnick. I do not, Mr. Kennedy.
Senator Kennedy. Okay. On November 1st, 2022, you tweeted,
``Both Texas and Louisiana have their knives out for Black
immigrants.'' Do you remember that tweet?
Mr. Reichlin-Melnick. I don't, but it's quite possible.
Senator Kennedy. What Texans--it's not only possible, it
happened. You're not denying it, are you?
Mr. Reichlin-Melnick. No, I'm saying--I'm referring to the
context--actually, I don't know the context.
Senator Kennedy. Who are you talking to about--who in Texas
had their knives out for Black immigrants?
Mr. Reichlin-Melnick. I'm guessing the context, but my
suspicion----
Senator Kennedy. Give me a name.
Mr. Reichlin-Melnick [continuing]. Is to do with the
Attorney General Ken Paxton and the attorney general----
Senator Kennedy. Give me a name.
Mr. Reichlin-Melnick [continuing]. Of Louisiana.
Senator Kennedy. Give me a name.
Mr. Reichlin-Melnick. I just did.
Senator Kennedy. You don't have a name, do you?
Mr. Reichlin-Melnick. I just said Ken Paxton.
Senator Kennedy. You don't have a name, do you?
Mr. Reichlin-Melnick. I just said it. Ken Paxton.
Senator Kennedy. How about Louisiana? You said Louisiana
has its knives out for Black immigrants. Who in Louisiana were
you talking about?
Mr. Reichlin-Melnick. Again, I'm not certain. That was 2
years ago. And as I'm sure you know, much has happened in the
last 2 years.
Senator Kennedy. Well, did you say it?
Mr. Reichlin-Melnick. Again, I do not remember the context,
Senator Kennedy.
Senator Kennedy. But you said somebody had their knives out
from Louisiana for Black immigrants, but you don't know who
they were. You just said it.
Mr. Reichlin-Melnick. I said the Attorney General of
Louisiana and Texas. And I believe this referred to,
specifically, lawsuits brought and arguments that were made in
court that the arrival of Haitians----
Senator Kennedy. I'm out time, but I want to get you on the
record----
Chair Durbin. Thank you very much, Senator. Appreciate your
questions.
Senator Kennedy [continuing]. That you believe that the
Attorney General at that time of Louisiana had his eyes--knives
out for Black immigrants. That's your testimony?
Chair Durbin. Thank you, Senator Kennedy.
Mr. Reichlin-Melnick. Given the litigation conduct, yes.
Chair Durbin. Senator Hirono.
Senator Hirono. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We have a broken
immigration system. This was acknowledged over a decade ago
when I first arrived in the U.S. Senate. And we actually, in
2013, we had a bipartisan, comprehensive immigration reform
bill that addressed the issues of all of the immigrants who are
working in various large sectors of our economy, IE, in the Ag
sector, where the Chamber of Commerce are concerned about what
we're doing with immigration policy. Where we dealt with the
undocumented immigrants who are working and paying taxes for
which they get absolutely--you know, they're paying the Social
Security, Medicare, and they don't get those benefits at all.
So, we have a broken immigration system. We actually had
the two Senators who are sitting here, the Chairman and of the
former chair of the Committee who are part of a comprehensive
immigration reform. So, I don't know why we cannot come to some
sort of an agreement to deal with the massive, complex issues
that confront us.
So, that is what I'm calling for. Until we make a
commitment to comprehensive immigration reform, pointing
fingers at the Biden Administration or any other
administration, it's not going to get us far anywhere fast.
And, in fact, every administration has had border enforcement
policies. You may not like the policies, for example, I
certainly didn't support the Trump policy of separating
thousands, thousands of children from their parents without
keeping track of who their parents were.
All I'm asking for is a rational, reasonable, humane
immigration policy. So, that was what I thought the
comprehensive immigration bill in 2013 was. I didn't agree with
all of the provisions, but some of us worked really hard on it.
And Senator Graham as I mentioned, was part of that. So, that's
what I think we ought to be focusing on.
Now, General Manner, I'm glad you're here because we have a
President who has said many times that he intends to use the
military to do immigration policies, to affect his immigration
policies. And General Manner, you said that that is going to
have a very negative impact on readiness, for example, because
our military, including a National Guard, they're not trained
for immigration enforcement.
So, as the Chair, currently, of the Armed Services
Committee's Readiness Subcommittee, I share your concerns. By
the way, maybe you can go over again a little bit more. What
kind of infrastructure would be needed to enforce immigration
deportation on up to 4 percent of our population? What kind of
infrastructure would we need in order to affect that?
General Manner. I have to defer to the other experts on the
panel.
Senator Hirono. Okay. Well, then that would be Mr.
Reichlin-Melnick?
Mr. Reichlin-Melnick. Yes.
Senator Hirono. Now, I'm pronouncing your name. Would you
like to go into some of that?
Mr. Reichlin-Melnick. Senator, in order to carry out that
form of operation would require hiring tens of thousands of new
law enforcement agents. It would require building dozens, if
not hundreds, of new detention centers, hiring thousands of new
judges, all at a cost of hundreds of billions of dollars,
potentially up to or more than a trillion dollars over the
course of more than a decade.
Senator Hirono. Do you support comprehensive immigration
reform?
Mr. Reichlin-Melnick. I do. We----
Senator Hirono. Does anybody on this panel not support
comprehensive immigration reform that really gets to some of
the problem--well, that really addresses the issues that we're
facing? Anybody on the panel?
Mr. Arthur. Senator, I have to say, if comprehensive
immigration reform is not a defined term, and as with all
legislation----
Senator Hirono. But, you can look at----
Mr. Arthur [continuing]. The devil is in the detail.
Senator Hirono. Excuse me. You can look----
Mr. Arthur. Sorry.
Senator Hirono [continuing]. At the 2013 bill, and that had
some of the kinds of--that would be what I would describe as
comprehensive. It was not the answer. It was not the be-all and
end-all, but it was pretty comprehensive, wouldn't you say?
Mr. Arthur. I was actually on the bench at the time that
that bill was introduced. I was an immigration judge and not
involved in legislation.
Senator Hirono. Well, it was--trust me when I say that it
was about as comprehensive immigration reform as we have
managed to do, and over a decade at this point. And that's
more, I think, what we need to do. And I don't think there's
anybody here who supports something called the ``open borders''
because, as I said, every single administration has had border
enforcement policy. You may not agree with all that. I don't
think there's anybody sitting here who supports open borders,
whatever the heck that means.
But we all know that we need to have border control. We do
need--need that. But what are we going to do about the 11
million to 13 million undocumented people here who are very
much a part of our community and the fabric of many, many
communities? Not to mention, that there are U.S. citizens that
are part of their families. And are we going to start busting
them up? What's that going to do?
So, you know, before we start throwing out all kinds of so-
called ``solutions'', I think we need to rethink that-- about
what are we going to do to have a rational, reasonable
immigration policy. And that's what I'm calling for. Thank you,
Mr. Chairman.
Chair Durbin. Thank you, Senator Hirono. Senator Blackburn.
Senator Blackburn. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you to
each of you for being here today. Ms. Morin, I am so sorry for
your loss. I know that's been a very difficult time for you and
your family. And this truly is a season of sorrow for you-all,
and I recognize that.
I find it so interesting. This open border policy that
we've seen is not a compassionate policy. I've talked to people
that work with human trafficking and sex trafficking, and what
is happening to women and children is abhorrent. And we all are
fully aware of that.
Mr. Chairman, I appreciated your remark that we should
deport those that are truly a danger to Americans. I think
that--that's accurate. I don't think there's anything anyone
would disagree with that. We've all seen the uptick in violent
crimes such as Ms. Morin and her family have experienced. And
this is the reason I reintroduced my CLEAR Act this year, which
would enable local law enforcement when they apprehend someone
who's in the country illegally to detain them and then call on
ICE to deport them. And then the Federal Government have to
repay that local law enforcement agency for what they've spent
and that apprehension, that detention.
And we should pass this bill today. And that would be a
good thing for this Committee to be doing this last week. Pull
it up, put it on the hotline, and run it. Is there anybody on
this panel that disagrees with deporting criminal, illegal
aliens? Raise your hand if you disagree with that. Everybody
agrees. Those that have committed crimes against our citizens
should be deported.
Mr. Arthur, I want to come to you. Talk for just 1 minute
about why it is important that we empower local law enforcement
to carry out the job that the Federal Government has not done.
Mr. Arthur. Well. You actually heard Mr. Reichlin-Melnick
talk about how few ICE enforcement removal officers there are.
There's always going to be a set number of those individuals.
When you allow police officers who are involved in their
community, who are the first line, actually putting hands on
criminals, they're going to be the people who are best able to
pull those individuals out of the community.
And it's important to note, Senator, that when you talk
about immigrant crime--you know, Ms. Morin's situation is
horrible. And every crime is horrible. So, much of that
immigrant crime takes place in immigrant communities. Sanctuary
jurisdictions do nothing but punish the immigrants that those
individuals that live in those communities that those criminals
are sent back to. So, that's why it's absolutely crucial.
Senator Blackburn. I appreciate that. So, I think we should
move forward with my legislation, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Reichlin-
Melnick, I'd like to come to you. I want to talk about some of
your tweets. You've been active on X. Here's one. ``This is bad
analysis that bears a little resemblance to the facts. The
Remain in Mexico program was not very successful. It was a
human rights disaster that fed people to the cartels with not
much impact on border crossings. Plus, Biden ended it when it
was barely in use at all.''
Mr. Reichlin-Melnick. That's correct.
Senator Blackburn. Let's talk about that. So, do you still
believe that Remain in Mexico was not very successful?
Mr. Reichlin-Melnick. It wasn't. In fact, it was one of a
suite of programs that went into effect in 2019, about four or
five different ones over the course of about 8 months.
Senator Blackburn. Do you believe that it was a human
rights disaster?
Mr. Reichlin-Melnick. Yes. And I can tell you the stories
of the women sent back by the United States to Mexico who were
raped----
Senator Blackburn [continuing]. Tell you stories----
Mr. Reichlin-Melnick [continuing]. In Mexico because of
that.
Senator Blackburn [continuing]. People that were raped
along the way, people that have been trafficked----
Mr. Reichlin-Melnick. And we sent them back to those
traffickers----
Senator Blackburn [continuing]. And drug dealers--okay.
Mr. Reichlin-Melnick. Remain in Mexico gave people to the
cartels, and we turned our eyes away from them.
Senator Blackburn. Remain in Mexico was successful, and we
all know it. Now, let me talk to you----
Mr. Reichlin-Melnick. It was not.
Senator Blackburn [continuing]. You about another tweet
that you put up. ``There are not 320,000 missing children--"
Mr. Reichlin-Melnick. That's correct.
Senator Blackburn. ``That number is a false interpretation
of a DHS OIG report that said that 32,000 people who entered as
unaccompanied children from 2019 to 2023 were ordered deported
for missing court, and ICE failed to charge--to file charging
documents for 291,000 more.''
Mr. Reichlin-Melnick. That's right. That's an accurate
description of the OIG report.
Senator Blackburn. Now, you know, this is a human rights
disaster. Because what we have heard is the DHS Inspector
General, and what they have testified, is that they found
32,000 migrant children did not show up for their court date.
And an additional 291,000 migrant children never received
notices to appear.
Mr. Reichlin-Melnick. That's correct. That's what my tweet
said.
Senator Blackburn. So, it is it your testimony that DHS
does, in fact, know the whereabouts of every single one of
these 320,000 children and they're just not telling people
where these children are?
Mr. Reichlin-Melnick. No, because that's not DHS's function
here. It's also Office of Refugee Resettlement.
Senator Blackburn. It is DHS and ORR.
Mr. Reichlin-Melnick. It's not their job to go out and find
every single people.
Senator Blackburn. It is DHS and ORR.
Mr. Reichlin-Melnick. I guess the broader point, if
somebody isn't missing if no one's looking for them.
Senator Blackburn. What we know--what we know is that
through reports that have been made, reported even in The New
York Times, many of these children are in abusive situations.
They are working in plants. And indeed, DHS says that you've
got these 320,000 migrant children that cannot be located. That
is a human rights disaster. I yield back.
Mr. Reichlin-Melnick. Senator Blackburn, they did not say
they can't be located. They said that they had not even
attempted to----
Senator Blackburn. My time is expired. I yield back, Mr.
Chairman.
Mr. Reichlin-Melnick [continuing]. File a charging
document, which is a very different thing.
Chair Durbin. I'm going to give the witness an opportunity
to finish his remarks.
Mr. Reichlin-Melnick. I just want to note, the DHS report
did not say these children were missing. It said that ICE had
failed on the job to actually start the court process for them.
If ICE filed the court documents, many of those people would be
living at the exact address that the ICE told them. It's just
ICE has not filed the charging documents. It's not that they're
missing. And, of course, exploitation is very real. And we've
called for more labor enforcement to ensure it doesn't happen.
Chair Durbin. Senator Padilla.
Senator Padilla. Thank you, Mr. Chair. And the fact that
we're still discussing, debating the struggle to reconnect
children who were separated from their parents more than 4
years ago today, should tell us a lot about what to expect in
the next administration.
I think it's worthy of further conversation, maybe a
different hearing, a different day to focus on that. Just as a
reminder for folks that are observing today's hearing, that the
topic--the stated topic of today's hearing is, ``How Mass
Deportations Will Separate American Families, Harm Our Armed
Forces and Devastate Our Economy.''
So, I'll attempt in my questions to bring us back to the
focus of this hearing today. But, first, wanted to point out a
couple of notes that I've taken throughout the hearing, in
hearing from my colleagues on the Committee, the issues they've
raised, the questions they've raised to underscore a statement
I made at the outset, which is how complex this conversation in
this policy area is. And so, it requires thoughtful and nuanced
solutions.
You know, Senator Graham was talking about the numbers. The
numbers, the numbers, the numbers, and even questioned
witnesses of--would you be opposed to someone who has had their
date in court, he said, and has been denied a further stay in
the United States after having had their day in court that
sheds light on process, due process, often lack thereof,
representation in the process. Lack of representation in the
process.
I'm for a process and finality of a process, a finality, an
answer, clarity about your future in a matter of weeks and
months, not years and years. But that requires investment in
the process by the Federal Government in hearing officers, in
immigration judges. So, let's just lay that out if we're going
to be genuine and serious about tackling the backlogs and the
issues.
Second, man, if I had a nickel for every time I heard
fentanyl in this Committee. Serious problem, serious problem,
but irresponsible in how it's misportrayed so often in
immigration conversations. Fentanyl needs to be addressed.
Fentanyl needs to be stopped. Its import--its illegal
importation needs to be tackled.
But if we're going to do it thoughtfully and seriously,
let's look at what the Customs and Border Protection Agency
tells us. Eighty percent of individuals who are prosecuted and
convicted for bringing fentanyl into this country are United
States citizens. Happy to share the link, folks. Happy to share
the report. So, if that's a concern, then let's address the
heart of the concern and not just use it as a soundbite to
further attack immigrants.
Oh, by the way, did you know that the numbers at the
Southern border are way down? People talking about this crisis
at the border crisis, we always need to do more to ensure a
safe, orderly, and humane border. But some of these numbers
that are being tossed around are not what's happening today
because of President Biden's policies this last year. So, let's
be intellectually honest with ourselves and the public.
Now, that being said, Mr. Reichlin-Melnick, you're pretty
popular today. I have a question for you as well. As you know,
and you've referenced the largest mass deportation effort in
U.S. history was President Eisenhower's Operation Wetback. I
referenced to it in my opening statements. During that
operation, more than half a million Mexicans and many United
States citizens were deported. And, as far as anybody can tell,
Operation Wetback did not achieve its intended effects of
increasing employment rates or wages for U.S. workers.
Former President Trump has said that he planned to model
his deportations on Operation Wetback. Now, you testified today
about the expected negative economic impacts of mass
deportation, including the rising costs of food. Some estimates
say food prices are going to go up 19 percent based on this
alone. In what world does food become cheaper with mass
deportations?
Mr. Reichlin-Melnick. Mass deportations would not cause
food prices to become cheaper. The exact opposite would occur.
In fact, a single work site raid in 2018 under the Trump
Administration at a beef plant in Tennessee led to ground beef
prices rising by 25 cents for the year that the plant was out
of operation following the raid.
Senator Padilla. And just to follow up to that question--
I'm cognizant of my time, Mr. Chairman--I've referenced so many
industries that have significant percentages of undocumented
workforce in them. I think chief among them is the agricultural
industry, not just nationally, but particularly, in the State
like California, the largest agricultural producing State in
the Nation where estimates are more than 75 percent of the
workforce is undocumented.
I hear from growers, as do all my colleagues, I hear from
labor contractors, as do all my colleagues, about how easy it
is for them to recruit United States citizens to do the work in
the fields. And let me tell you how easy it is. It is not.
There's a reason that the agricultural industry relies on
immigrants, including so many undocumented immigrants, to help
keep the food supply chain going, keep food on the tables of
American families.
And I invite my colleagues, if you want to get a taste of
what it's like and the difficulties for the recruitment, to
spend a day in the fields, like I did in 2022, picking radishes
and parsley, like Senator Booker did in 2023. Happy to work
with growers and farm workers to provide that opportunity for
all of you.
Follow up question. Mr. Reichlin-Melnick, just briefly
describe to us what it would look like if the agricultural
industry were suddenly to lose half of its workforce.
Mr. Reichlin-Melnick. I mean, if it was overnight the U.S.
food supply would crumble. Workers--undocumented workers work
across the agricultural sector; from picking crops in the
field, to meat processing, to poultry processing, to dairy, to
everything in between. And these are workers that, without
them, our food supply would drastically diminish.
I'm not saying that there's no jobs Americans will do. Of
course, that's not true. Americans have done those jobs in the
past, but it could take decades before we got enough workers to
replace the experience and the knowledge of some of these
workers who have been doing the jobs for 20, 30 years. It is
not something that can just be replaced overnight. It can cause
severe impact to the U.S. food supply.
Chair Durbin. Thank you, Senator Padilla.
Senator Padilla. The violent criminals, let's go after
them. The vast majority of immigrants and undocumented
immigrants who are contributing so much to this country, they
deserve better. Thank you.
Chair Durbin. Senator Tillis.
Senator Tillis. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to paint a
picture of the crisis at the border and what the incoming
administration has to deal with. Roughly, eight million people
came into this country illegally from the outgoing
administration's border policies. Eight million. Does anyone
find that acceptable? I'm going to give you-all a chance to
answer that question shortly.
The American people elected a new President, in large part,
to secure the border and deport people who came illegally under
their predecessor. So, to my Democratic colleagues, how many
illegal immigrants being deported by the new administration
would you find objectionable? Mr. Melnick, I'll ask you, a
million?
Mr. Reichlin-Melnick. I think one million would be a
disaster.
Senator Tillis. Two million?
Mr. Reichlin-Melnick. Again, considering we're talking
about law abiding people who've been here for decades, I think
that is enough that would have severe negative ramifications
for the United States.
Senator Tillis. Three million?
Mr. Reichlin-Melnick. Same answer.
Senator Tillis. Five million?
Mr. Reichlin-Melnick. Same answer, even worse
ramifications.
Senator Tillis. Do you think it would be fair or moral to
deport any illegal immigrants?
Mr. Reichlin-Melnick. Yes. I'm not a supporter of open
borders, as I said before.
Senator Tillis. Well, I'm kind of curious what your
position was back during the Obama administration when that's
exactly what he did. I'm not reading what Trump intends to do.
I'm reading exactly what President Barack Obama did when he
came into office and deported nearly five million people, or in
excess of three million people. So, at that time were you
involved, politically, or in this space at the time that Obama
was here? How old were you back then?
Mr. Reichlin-Melnick. I was a graduate of law school and
was working at the time.
Senator Tillis. Were you opining on deportations at that
time?
Mr. Reichlin-Melnick. I was not.
Senator Tillis. Do you believe that President Obama made a
grave, horrible, inhumane mistake by deporting those folks?
Mr. Reichlin-Melnick. Well, it wasn't five million people--
--
Senator Tillis [continuing]. That came in under the Bush
administration?
Mr. Reichlin-Melnick. It wasn't five million people. We're
looking at internalized deportations
Senator Tillis. Over three million. So, let's not split
hairs.
Mr. Reichlin-Melnick. Actual numbers are closer to 1.5
internal ICE deportations. And there was a portfolio of----
Senator Tillis. So, you said President Obama was immoral
and inappropriate to deport those million people. Is that what
I heard you say?
Mr. Reichlin-Melnick. There were many people who were
deported----
Senator Tillis. It's a yes or no question. Look, I don't
normally get into these antagonistic sorts of discussions here,
but it needs to be said. Because you, just a month ago, said,
``At the turn of the century, Jim Crow was legal. Lynchings
were at their highest level in U.S. history. Women couldn't
vote. The infant mortality rate was 165 per 1,000, and the
average life expectancy was 47--'' Oh, ``and we also had quasi-
open borders.'' That part wasn't bad.
So, let me tell you what I tell everyone who comes in this
room and has the polarizing testimony, sir, that you have had.
You're a part of the problem. I'm a part of a group of people
here who have said, as the President did, incidentally, on
Sunday. He believes there should be a path for DREAMers. We're
demonizing President Trump for something he may or may not do.
But he has said to his Republican base, he believes that there
should be certainty for DREAMers.
He's also said that we have to have a secure border. And as
long as the border is not secure, people like me who try to
treat people who are in the State, that they are here, with
respect and understanding, some of the issues that Mr. Padilla
brought up, you cause people to go into their corners and get
nothing done.
That is why Chair Durbin has not been able to fulfill the
promise on DREAMers every single year he has tried for the last
20 because people like you make it impossible to have a--let me
finish, and then I'll let you speak as long as the Chair wants
to--have a rational discussion about it.
Because if we don't secure the border, I can't get a path
to citizenship for the DACA population. If we don't secure the
border, I can't get Democrats and Republicans to come together
and give certainty to the DREAMer population.
Are there any DREAMers in the room? Raise your hand if you
are. All right, well, this is a part of the problem, ladies,
and gentlemen. You have an incoming Republican President who
just said, as late as Sunday, that he's prepared to give you
certainty. But we have people here demonizing him for asking
the reasonable question of; can't we all agree that we need to
secure the border?
So, if you are sincerely--I don't know how you make your
money. I don't care what your political motives are. But,
number one, I would really appreciate it, to say, if you would
go out on social media and say that President Obama did a
horrible disservice to those people he deported. And he's as
wrong-minded as every other Republican who said we've got to
secure the border, deport people.
Because you can't have one being okay and the other one not
being okay. And if you don't come to the table and recognize in
a world where, yes, 100 years ago, it was probably safe to have
a quasi-open door border because the world order was changing
and we emerged as a world leader.
But today we have terrorists that can fly from the Middle
East, land in Mexico, and come across the border in less than
24 hours. We're not living in Ellis Island anymore. We've got a
problem that can't be solved. And people like you are creating
more obstacles to people like me who are willing to take hits
from my own party to satisfy what people like Donald Trump want
to get done. Thank you.
Mr. Reichlin-Melnick. May I respond?
Senator Tillis. Knock yourself out.
Senator Welch. [Presiding.] No. Thank you, Senator. It is
my time, so I'm going to speak. First of all, I want to thank
all the witnesses. I think we're actually going to start making
progress on securing the border and on a sensible humane
policy. I want to thank folks from the immigrant community, and
DREAMers, who I know are here, and acknowledge my respect for
the contributions you've made to our country. And I don't want
to lose the benefit of that.
As I've listened to my colleagues, I think there's--it's
not that complex. Number one, I think there is agreement we
have to have a secure border. You can't have a country that
doesn't have a control over its border.
Second, I think there's broad consensus that criminals who
are here should be deported. Ms. Morin and I just want to
acknowledge, as we all have, the incredible life you've had,
and the loss of your daughter, and your own experience. People
who do that, they shouldn't have gotten in, and they shouldn't
be here. And if they are here, they should be in jail.
Third, we have the question of people whose status has been
determined, but it took so long for that status to be
determined, in many cases, years, and years, that they become
an integral part of their community and they put roots down
here and they haven't committed a crime. This is where we don't
have consensus. There's a view among some, and I think that
President-elect Trump has this view, that if you are here
illegally, no matter how long it took for that adjudication to
occur, and no matter what your roots are, then you should go
back.
Senator Graham was indicating a view that if you've been
adjudicated, fear is fair and should go back. There's another
point of view. And that is that if you have been here, and we
had a system that didn't adjudicate in any kind of timely way,
and you have been working--put it in very specific terms, on a
farm in Vermont for seven, or for eight, or for 9 years, and
you become a contributing member to the community and the
economy.
There's another approach one could take where you might pay
a fine, you might have to make amends for the fact that you
came here illegally, but there'd be an acknowledgement of the
contributions you've made, the roots you've established, and
what the harm to the community would be. And that, certainly,
would be the case in Vermont.
Just speaking about agriculture, I just can't imagine--
actually, I can imagine. I've talked to some farmers who if
they lost their labor, they would lose their farm, because cows
don't milk themselves. And they are not able to get local labor
to do that.
So, there is a real potential here for us to find common
ground and get something done; that is securing the border,
that is deporting criminals, that is making judgments about
allowing people the option of paying a fine, where there would
be a deterrent as long as we have a secure border.
You know, Ms. Morin, and I just want to ask you, you've
suffered so much, and I want to express to you my gratitude for
your advocacy on behalf of others. But if we had a secure
border, you're advocating for that. If we have and that keeps
criminals out, right, would it be in conflict with what you
think would be a reasonable outcome for like DREAMers, for
instance, folks who--kids who came here with their parents
who've not committed any crime, who've become parts of the
community. Would that be something that you would see as a
reasonable outcome to find a way for them to have a legal
status?
Ms. Morin. A couple of things from listening to everyone
speak. One, as an American citizen and not a politician, so I
don't know all the ins and outs, but just what I'm hearing is
the bottom line is profit. To an American citizen here, you're
putting like--you're putting profit above American lives. So,
that's the message you're communicating.
For me, personally, there--our country is made of
immigrants. We have 250 years or more of immigrants that have
come to this country and have built the country to what it is
today, and we are descendants of those immigrants. The issue is
having an open border that allows an invasion of people that
compromises our national security because our borders, we don't
have enough border agents to stem the flow of immigrants. But
then also, they bypass the law to speed up them coming in, and
in doing so, they miss all the criminals that are coming into
our country.
So, I think we need to put those laws back into place and
to practice so we can catch them at the border. And then, I
think that we should work toward those that have come to the
country--if it's illegal. Illegal, the very word itself, means
unlawful. So, are we saying it's okay to come to America in an
unlawful way? There has to be some kind of a line, a precedence
of what is lawful and what isn't lawful.
Senator Welch. Well, I thank you for that. I mean, the
heart of--at least as I hear what you're saying, is that we
have to have a secure border in the first place.
Ms. Morin. Yes.
Senator Welch. Yes. Well, thank you again. My time is up,
and I'm going to--who's--are you next, Hawley? Senator for
Missouri.
Senator Hawley. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thanks to the
witnesses for being here. I have to say, I'm kind of amazed
that we're holding this hearing. To me, it's remarkable that
the idea of, actually, as you were just saying, Ms. Morin, the
idea of enforcing our laws, protecting our border, securing our
streets from criminals. It's amazing that that's controversial
at all. And it says something a lot about the other side of the
dais that we're having this hearing today.
Let me just ask you, Mr. Reichlin-Melnick, I mean, is it
really such a bad idea to deport people like the criminal who
killed this young man? This is Travis Wolfe. He was 12 years
old when he was killed. [Poster is displayed.] He was mowed
down--and I do mean mowed down in a car by an illegal
immigrant, 12 years of age, walking along a sidewalk in my
State of Missouri, mowed down by an illegal immigrant who, I
think, also had a prior criminal record. Is it such a bad idea
to deport the person who killed him?
Mr. Reichlin-Melnick. Any person who commits a heinous
crime should suffer the consequences under the law.
Senator Hawley. Good. What about officer David Lee? Officer
David Lee was killed in Missouri just a few months ago by
another illegal immigrant, once again in a car, who used it as
a lethal weapon to ram him and kill him. Is it so wrong, such a
bad idea to deport the illegal immigrant who killed this good
man?
Mr. Reichlin-Melnick. Again, any person who commits an
awful act should face the full force of the law.
Senator Hawley. We've had multiple stabbings in the State
of Missouri at laundromats in O'Fallon, Missouri, where
innocent civilians were going to do their laundry of an evening
and were attacked with knives, slashed, bled, stomped upon.
Should the illegals who do that, should they not be deported?
Mr. Reichlin-Melnick. No, as I said, if you commit an
offense, you should have face consequences. But the
overwhelming majority of the 13 million people----
Senator Hawley. We've had an officer here today----
Mr. Reichlin-Melnick [continuing]. Have not committed an
offense.
Senator Hawley [continuing]. Assaulted in Kansas City on
the other side of the State who have been assaulted by illegal
immigrants. One officer required over 100 stitches to the head,
police officer, earlier this year. Should the illegal immigrant
who did that not be deported?
Mr. Reichlin-Melnick. Again, they should face the
consequences of the law, but they are a very small minority of
the population that President Trump is promising to deport.
Senator Hawley. Well, let's talk about the rest of the
people who you don't want to be deported. You said in an
article that you wrote recently, ``New report shows costs--
devastating costs of mass deportation.'' You wrote this in
October. Do you remember this piece?
Mr. Reichlin-Melnick. Yes. That is a summary of our report
that we published in October.
Senator Hawley. Yes. So, in this piece, and it's also in
your written testimony, you talk about how much the economy
will lose if the United States actually enforces our
immigration laws and deports folks who are here illegally. And
I want to quote you now. You say, ``Some industries would be
particularly hard hit, including construction, agriculture, and
hospitality, which combined, would lose more than two and a
half million workers. What's the argument here, that there
aren't American workers who are available to do those jobs?
Mr. Reichlin-Melnick. No. And as I said previously, there
likely are, but the issue is that it would cost decades----
Senator Hawley. And you don't want their wages to rise?
Mr. Reichlin-Melnick. I think that we want to pass a path
to citizenship so we can have level, fair playing field for
every American.
Senator Hawley. Why would--why would you want American
citizens and those who are here lawfully to have to compete
against illegal immigrants, who by the way, are often paid----
Mr. Reichlin-Melnick. I don't want that.
Senator Hawley [continuing]. Non-minimum wage, who are not
given the federally mandated benefits precisely because they're
here illegally. Why would you want to drive down the wages of
millions of working Americans who can't get those jobs in
construction, agriculture, and hospitality because illegal
immigrants are getting them, suppressing wages in the meantime.
Why would you want to do that?
Mr. Reichlin-Melnick. Well, if you've been here for my
initial testimony, you'd know I don't want exploitation.
Senator Hawley. Listen, I read your testimony word for
word, and I've been watching it, and I know what the answer is.
You don't actually care about working people because you're
absolutely hell bent on this ideological agenda of opening our
border. You want to give everybody who's here a path to
citizenship. You want blanket amnesty. You talk about mass
deportations, that's your word, not Trump's. You want mass
amnesty, right? It's right here in your testimony.
Mr. Reichlin-Melnick. We want a path to citizenship for----
Senator Hawley. That's amnesty.
Mr. Reichlin-Melnick [continuing]. People who pass a
background check, who pay a fine, who----
Senator Hawley. That's amnesty. That's amnesty. You just
said there's millions of people. Thirteen million people,
right? Thirteen million people you want to dump into the labor
force.
Mr. Reichlin-Melnick. They are already in the labor force.
Senator Hawley [continuing]. Who will drive--illegally,
they're here----
Mr. Reichlin-Melnick Yes. So, unless it's legal for them--
--
Senator Hawley [continuing]. Taking jobs from American
citizens and saying, oh, perfect. So, here's your plan--so just
if you're wondering America--here's the Democrats' plan. Take
the 13 million-plus illegals who are here taking jobs from
Americans, taking wages down, taking healthcare benefits, and
bring them here legally so that they can continue to drive down
wages, flood the labor force and suppress----
Mr. Reichlin-Melnick. Senator Hawley, they can't flood the
labor force if they're already part of the labor force, which
is the economic issue today.
Senator Hawley. They are flooding the labor force now.
That's what's happening now.
Mr. Reichlin-Melnick. The majority have been here for over
15 years. Many--millions have been here since the Reagan----
Senator Hawley. And what has happened to Reagan working
class wages in that time, Mr. Reichlin-Melnick?
Mr. Reichlin-Melnick. Working class wages----
Senator Hawley. Have they gone up?
Mr. Reichlin-Melnick [continuing]. Wages are currently
going up. Yes.
Senator Hawley. Oh, really? They've gone up over the last
15 years?
Mr. Reichlin-Melnick. Over the last 15 years, I will have
to consult the economists on that matter.
Senator Hawley. Yes, they're down. Way down. What world do
you live in?
Mr. Reichlin-Melnick. Senator----
Senator Hawley. Listen, here's the deal. The American----
Mr. Reichlin-Melnick. Are you familiar with the phrase----
Senator Hawley [continuing]. People just voted--oh, well
you know what? It's my time not yours. So, you're here to
answer my questions, not to offer a soliloquy. And let me just
end with this. The American people just got a good look at your
economic program and they voted against it.
We've had an open border for the last 4 years. We have had
de facto amnesty, as you yourself just said, for the last 15-
plus years. It has been a disaster. People have died because of
it. Wages are lower because of it. Our streets are in chaos
because of it.
And now you and the Democratic Party just say more of the
same, more of the same, let's double down. I would just say to
you, I think that's insanity. I think it's total insanity. And
the American people do, too.
Mr. Reichlin-Melnick. Senator Hawley, we have a choice. We
can either hurt the economy or help the economy. And if we want
to deport 13 million----
Senator Hawley. It hurts the economy to give American
workers jobs?
Senator Welch. Senator from Texas.
Senator Cruz. Elections have consequences. For the last 4
years, we have seen the most radical experiment in open borders
this Nation has ever seen. There are many reasons the American
people showed up in overwhelming numbers to vote, to reelect
Donald Trump, to elect a Republican majority in the Senate, to
reelect a Republican majority in the House.
But there was no reason more front and center than the open
borders of the last 4 years. And I have to say, I think there
were a number of us wondering, did any of the Democrats in
Congress learn anything from the election? And the existence of
this hearing makes very clear the answer is no.
We've seen 12 million people come into this country
illegally under Joe Biden and Kamala Harris. My home State of
Texas has seen more than any State in the country. There is a
reason that the Rio Grande Valley, which has been Democrat for
over 100 years, flipped Red this election. Because when your
home is invaded by more than 12 million people, it changes your
voting patterns every single day. We have seen Americans
murdered. We have seen women raped. We have seen children
brutalized by criminal, illegal aliens released deliberately by
Joe Biden and Kamala Harris.
The numbers are staggering. According to ICE, as of July
21st, 2024, nearly 650,000 criminal illegal aliens were
currently on ICE's non-detained docket. Which means they've
been released, they're wandering around, they're free. And of
those 650,000, 14,944 have been convicted of homicide.
[Poster is displayed.]
You want to know what mass deportation is? Those 14,944
better pack their bags right now because with a new
administration, we're going to show up, we're going to arrest
you, and we are going to deport you. Twenty thousand and sixty-
one have been convicted of sexual assault.
Now, I want you to ask of my Democrat colleagues--and it is
striking that virtually none of them are here. That is
reflected in their conduct because they are silent and putting
their head in the sand as to the human tragedies. But what
resident of what Blue State says; you know what? America's
better off with 20,000 rapists being released into this
country.
One hundred five thousand and one hundred forty-six have
been convicted of assault. I would ask my Democrat colleagues
if they were here, why the hell, today, does the Biden
Administration not go and arrest every one of these criminals
and deport them? What rational world says, America's better off
with more criminals.
And these are not just statistics. Ms. Morin, thank you for
being here. The country grieves the loss of your daughter. Your
daughter was beautiful. She was a mom who I know loved her
kids, and she's not with us today. She was raped and murdered
because this administration chose to release a violent criminal
into America.
Your daughter should still be alive, and every one of these
victims should still be alive. Laken Riley, a name that the
Democrats on this Committee can't bring themselves to utter,
should still be alive. And in my hometown of Houston, Jocelyn
Nungaray. I've gotten to know Jocelyn's mother, Alexis, very
well.
Ms. Morin, like you, Alexis, is incredibly brave. I cannot
imagine the pain. I'm a father. To lose your child, no parent
should have to bury their child. Children should bury their
parents. Not the other way around. It is wrong what happened to
you. But I want to say to you, thank you for having the courage
to tell Rachel's story. I would understand if you just curled
up in a ball and cried. But--and I'm sure you have wept a lot
of tears, but thank you for having the courage to tell Rachel's
story.
And I want to say, if there is anything that is a mandate
from this election, it is to end this insanity. Stop these
murders, stop these rapes, stop these assaults, protect our
citizens. And Ms. Morin, I just want to give you the
opportunity at the end of my questioning to share from your
perspective why this matters. Why we should stop releasing
criminals into America?
Ms. Morin. In order to prepare for this hearing, I was
actually looking at statistics over the last couple of days,
and most of the rape and murder statistics by illegal
immigrants are actually against children. And to me that's
astounding. I don't know how many people here have children or
grandchildren, but can you imagine your 7-, 8-, 9-year-old
daughter being forcibly raped by a stranger, sometimes multiple
times?
This is the culture--and I realize it's not all immigrants,
but this is the culture that they come from, this kind of
violence. They grow up in it in their countries. To them, it's
just part of what they've known for their lives. But to bring
that criminal culture into America, it's destroying our
families.
I know of women in my hometown that have come up to me
because they know I'm Rachel's mom and say to me, ``Some guy
just ran up behind me and tried to pull me down to the ground.
And if it wasn't for the fact that I could fight him off and
run to a store to call the police, I might not be here.'' And
in one instance, that man had attacked seven other women.
Senator Cruz. Wow.
Ms. Morin. Why are we allowing this? And then the women and
children that are raped and because they're so ashamed of
what's happened to them, how they've been so violated, they
don't say anything. So, the numbers are grossly underestimated,
I believe, as far as the crimes that are happening in our
country. And I think we need to stop this.
Senator Cruz. Thank, thank you very much.
Chair Durbin. [Presiding.] Thank you very much. I
appreciate all the witnesses appearing before the Committee
today.
There are, obviously, many questions asked about the mass
deportation proposal of the President-elect. As I said earlier,
I listened carefully at the Meet the Press yesterday, and I
believe the magnitude of that statement is growing in the mind
of the President-elect. Mr. Melnick, you certainly allude to
that in terms of the number of personnel and the cost to our
Nation.
Bottom line still is, we have no tolerance for keeping
dangerous people here who've come to this country and asked to
be made citizens. And we have certainly, have no interest in a
policy that allows them to come across the border with
impunity. But the mass deportation includes not only that
possibility of stopping those people, but an impact on Mr.
Turay and his family. I think most of us would agree that a man
who's given his life to criminal prosecution is a value to us
based on what Ms. Morin just mentioned, and I think we should
go forward with that in mind. Let's be thoughtful and
reflective, and do things that make America safer and are
consistent with our values.
The hearing record will remain open for 1 week for
additional materials to be submitted.
Chair Durbin. And with that, the meeting of this Committee
stands adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 12:09 p.m., the hearing was adjourned.]
[Additional material submitted for the record follows.]
A P P E N D I X
Submitted by Chair Durbin:
Access Living.................................................... 308
AFL-CIO, Statement............................................... 400
Agular, Cecilia, Letter.......................................... 375
Alabama Immigrant Advocacy Organizations......................... 358
Alliance for Immigrant Survivors................................. 184
American Academy of Pediatrics, Testimony........................ 376
American Immigration Lawyers Association......................... 182
AMICA, Center for Immigrant Rights............................... 186
Asian Pacific Institute on Gender-Based Violence (apigbv)........ 190
Brennan Center for Justice....................................... 194
Coalition for Humane Immigrant Rights (CHIRLA)................... 220
Center for Law and Social Policy (CLASP)......................... 225
Center for Migration Studies (CMS)............................... 242
Center for Migration Studies (CMS)............................... 269
Children's Defense Fund, Texas................................... 436
Church World Service (CWS)....................................... 258
Cohn, Lindsay P., PhD............................................ 249
Cohn, Linday P., PhD, Statement.................................. 324
Cruz, Jessica Garcia, Letter..................................... 373
Diaz, Alvany, Letter............................................. 374
Donald, Heidi Gurcke, Letter..................................... 163
Duran, Veronica Oreliana, Letter................................. 159
Ebel, Karen E., Statement........................................ 271
German American Internee Coalition, Karen Ebel................... 178
German American Internee Coalition............................... 286
Immigrant Children's Rights, Young Center........................ 164
Jacobs, Colleen, Letter.......................................... 402
Japanese American Citizens League................................ 320
Japanese Peruvian Oral History Project, Statement................ 408
Joint Economic Committee (JEC)................................... 334
Justice for Migrant Women........................................ 404
Letter from Various Groups....................................... 155
Maldonado, Abner, Letter......................................... 372
Maurer, Daniel D., Statement..................................... 346
MomsRising Together.............................................. 339
Morales, Brenda Compean, Letter.................................. 161
National Asian Pacific American Women's Forum (napawf)........... 341
National Association of Social Workers (NASW).................... 332
National Education Association (NEA)............................. 319
National Immigrant Justice Center................................ 313
National Immigration Law Center.................................. 386
Nevitt, Mark P., Statement....................................... 302
Rios, Maricruz Lozano, Letter.................................... 160
Rivera, Maria Isabel, Letter..................................... 370
Rodriguez, Sonia Romero, Letter.................................. 162
Society for Community Research and Action........................ 259
Southern Border Communities Coalition (SBCC)..................... 356
Tahirih Justice Center, Statement................................ 417
Teaching, Interpreting, & Changing Law (ILRC).................... 152
Texas Civil Rights Project....................................... 165
The Advocates for Human Rights................................... 420
UNIDOS US........................................................ 424
United Farm Workers.............................................. 423
United We Dream.................................................. 395
Wartime Treatment Study Act of 2007.............................. 294
World Relief..................................................... 433
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