[Senate Hearing 118-663]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
S. Hrg. 118-663
SOCIAL MEDIA AND THE TEEN MENTAL
HEALTH CRISIS
=======================================================================
HEARING
before the
SUBCOMMITTEE ON PRIVACY,
TECHNOLOGY, AND THE LAW
of the
COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY
UNITED STATES SENATE
ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
__________
NOVEMBER 7, 2023
__________
Serial No. J-118-42
__________
Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
www.judiciary.senate.gov
www.govinfo.gov
------
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
60-432 WASHINGTON : 2025
COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY
RICHARD J. DURBIN, Illinois, Chair
SHELDON WHITEHOUSE, Rhode Island LINDSEY O. GRAHAM, South Carolina,
AMY KLOBUCHAR, Minnesota Ranking Member
CHRISTOPHER A. COONS, Delaware CHARLES E. GRASSLEY, Iowa
RICHARD BLUMENTHAL, Connecticut JOHN CORNYN, Texas
MAZIE K. HIRONO, Hawaii MICHAEL S. LEE, Utah
CORY A. BOOKER, New Jersey TED CRUZ, Texas
ALEX PADILLA, California JOSH HAWLEY, Missouri
JON OSSOFF, Georgia TOM COTTON, Arkansas
PETER WELCH, Vermont JOHN KENNEDY, Louisiana
LAPHONZA BUTLER, California THOM TILLIS, North Carolina
MARSHA BLACKBURN, Tennessee
Joseph Zogby, Chief Counsel and Staff Director
Katherine Nikas, Republican Chief Counsel and Staff Director
Subcommittee on Privacy, Technology, and the Law
RICHARD BLUMENTHAL, Connecticut, Chair
AMY KLOBUCHAR, Minnesota JOSH HAWLEY, Missouri, Ranking
CHRISTOPHER A. COONS, Delaware Member
MAZIE K. HIRONO, Hawaii JOHN KENNEDY, Louisiana
ALEX PADILLA, California MARSHA BLACKBURN, Tennessee
JON OSSOFF, Georgia MICHAEL S. LEE, Utah
JOHN CORNYN, Texas
Cassie Fields, Democratic Chief Counsel
Julissa Milligan Walsh, Republican Chief Counsel
C O N T E N T S
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OPENING STATEMENTS
Page
Durbin, Hon. Richard J........................................... 5
Graham, Hon. Lindsey O........................................... 6
Blumenthal, Hon. Richard......................................... 1
Hawley, Hon. Josh................................................ 3
Blackburn, Hon. Marsha...........................................
WITNESS
Bejar, Arturo.................................................... 7
Prepared statement........................................... 38
APPENDIX
Items submitted for the record................................... 53
SOCIAL MEDIA AND THE TEEN MENTAL
HEALTH CRISIS
----------
TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 7, 2023
United States Senate,
Subcommittee on Privacy, Technology,
and the Law,
Committee on the Judiciary,
Washington, DC.
The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:03 a.m., in
Room 226, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Richard Blumen-
thal, Chair of the Subcommittee, presiding.
Present: Senators Blumenthal [presiding], Klobuchar, Coons,
Hirono, Hawley, Kennedy, Blackburn, and Cornyn.
Also present: Senators Durbin, Graham, Welch, and Butler.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. RICHARD BLUMENTHAL,
A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF CONNECTICUT
Chair Blumenthal. This hearing of the Judiciary
Subcommittee on Technology, Privacy, and the Law will come to
order. Thank you, everyone, for attending.
My thanks to Ranking Member Hawley, and particularly to the
Chairman of the Judiciary Committee, Dick Durbin, for giving us
this opportunity, and he is vitally interested in this topic,
and I'm going to call on him after Senator Hawley for his
remarks.
We are gathered today to ear testimony from a whistleblower
and engineer, widely respected and admired in the industry. And
not just any expert, but an engineer hired specifically by
Facebook to help protect against harms to children and make
recommendations for making Facebook safer.
We've known for more than a decade that rates of teens
suffering from suicides, hospitalizations for self-harm, and
depression have skyrocketed.
As he knows, these numbers are more than statistics.
They're real people, and his daughter is one of them. Arturo
Bejar is the former director of engineering for Protect and
Care at Facebook, and he will tell us about the evidence he
brought directly to the attention of the top management of
Facebook and Meta, Mark Zuckerberg, Sheryl Sandberg, and others
in meetings and memos.
He resoundingly raised an alarm about statistics showing
Facebook's prevalent and pernicious harms to teens--telling
Mark Zuckerberg, for example, in a memo that more than half of
Facebook users had bad or harmful experience just within the
last week.
Instead of real reform, he will testify that Facebook
engaged in a purposeful public strategy of distraction, denial,
and deception.
They hid from this Committee and all of Congress evidence
of the harms that they knew was credible. And they ignored and
disregarded recommendations for making the site safer, and they
even rolled back some of the existing protection.
Now, Mr. Bejar is not the first or the only whistleblower
to come forward. We heard from Frances Haugen who showed that
Facebook's own researchers described Instagram itself as a,
quote, ``perfect storm,'' end quote, and that it, quote,
``exacerbates downward spirals of addiction, eating disorders,
and depression.''
Mr. Bejar is the first to show in documents--not just in
his recollection, but in documents how he warned the top
management of Facebook and Instagram of the ongoing harms their
products were causing. We're going to present those documents
for the record, and they show, for example, that over a quarter
of young teens, 13 to 15 years old, report receiving sexual
advances on Instagram.
[Poster is displayed.]
Chair Blumenthal. Nearly a third of young teens have seen
discrimination based on gender, religion, race, and sexual
orientation.
A quarter of young teens report having been bullied or
threatened.
And nearly a quarter of young teens report experiencing
feeling worse about themselves, about their bodies, and their
social relationship. The type of experience that lead to
serious depression and eating disorders.
And when users reported harmful content to Facebook, it
took action only 2 percent of the time. Remedies only 2 percent
of the time.
There's a history here. In August of 2021, Senator
Blackburn and I wrote to Facebook about the impact of their
products on kids. We asked, quote, ``Has Facebook research ever
found that its platforms and products can have a negative
effect on children's and teens' mental health or well-being? ''
Facebook refused to answer.
In October of 2021, Senator Blackburn and I held a hearing.
We heard from Frances Haugen about Instagram's harms, and on
that same day, Mr. Bejar sent an email to Mark Zuckerberg,
Sheryl Sandberg, Adam Mosseri, and other executives validating
Ms. Haugen's testimony.
That email actually demonstrated even greater harms than
were then public--a chilling and searing indictment of
Instagram and Facebook. And I'm going to ask that it be made
part of the record, without objection.
[The information appears as a submission for the record.]
In December of 2021, Mr. Mosseri then testified to the
Committee--to our Subcommittee, after he met with Mr. Bejar
discussing these numbers and statistics relating to suicide.
And during that hearing, a number of us asked him about
Facebook promoting suicide.
Mr. Mosseri knew--but he didn't disclose--that on a weekly
basis, around 7 percent of Facebook users overall encounter
content promoting suicide and self-harm, with 13- to 15-year-
olds seeing it more often than others.
There's a pattern here with Facebook. It hides risks by
saying things like bullying and harassment is only 0.08 percent
of content.
When in reality, Meta executives know that 11 percent of
those 13- to 15-year-olds face bullying every single week--
every single week on Instagram.
And just to be absolutely clear, that's millions of
children and teenagers. It's not just a number. Behind every
one of those numbers, is a real person, a teenager, a child
whose life is changed--maybe forever, by that searing
experience of bullying, eating disorder content, suicide
promotion.
We can no longer rely on social media's mantra, ``Trust
us.'' We can no longer depend on its putting the blame or
responsibility on parents.
What's needed now is legislative reform, the Kids Online
Safety Act. Senator Blackburn and I have enlisted more than 45
of our colleagues, almost half the United States Senate, in
favor of the Kids Online Safety Act.
And the final point I would make is that social media, in
particular Facebook, still fails to take these threats
seriously.
This June, The Wall Street Journal found that Instagram was
hosting open markets for child abuse material, even
recommending pedophiles to each other. Young teens were being
extorted and coerced into sexual acts. Instagram was complicit.
Mr. Bejar, you provided Mark Zuckerberg, Adam Mosseri, and
others in management, with specific recommendation to prevent
teens from experiencing this unwanted sexual contact and
harassment. Those recommendations were never adopted. You have
put your career on the line to come forward--an experienced and
trusted industry expert whose job was to make Facebook safer,
and your recommendations were purposefully ignored, or
disregarded, or rejected.
I'm just going to remind my colleagues that we've heard
from young people as well as parents about these harms, and one
of them told me, ``How many more children have to die before
Congress will do something? '' That's why we're here today, and
I want to thank all of my colleagues who are present--truly a
bipartisan group on behalf of this cause and turn to the
Ranking Member, Senator Hawley.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. JOSH HAWLEY,
A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF MISSOURI
Senator Hawley. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Thank
you for convening this hearing. This is such a vital hearing on
a vital topic, and to be honest with you, this hearing
concerns, I think, every parent's nightmare.
And I see you're nodding, Mr. Bejar. You're a father, that
subject composes--that reality composes some of your testimony.
I'm also a father of three, and what you have brought to this
Committee today is something that every parent in America needs
to hear. The numbers are really stunning. That one in four
teenagers, minor children will experience sexual solicitation
on Meta's platforms at some point. One in eight say that they
have experienced unwanted sexual advances.
We're talking about children now. These are not adults.
Children have experienced unwanted sexual advances just in the
last week, within the last 7 days.
And, of course, we know from Meta's own internal research
that they knew the extent of this problem even as they were
ignoring you. And I want to turn to some of that research that
Senator Blumenthal just referenced.
Here's what Meta--these are Meta's own words from their own
internal research on the effect of their own product on
children, particularly young women. Quote: ``We make body image
issues worse for one in three teen girls.''
Quote: ``Teens blame Instagram for increases in the rate of
anxiety and depression. This reaction was unprompted and
consistent across all groups.''
Quote: ``Teens told us they don't like the amount of time
they spend on the app, but they feel they have to be present.
They often feel addicted and know that what they're seeing is
bad for their mental health, but feel unable to stop
themselves.''
This is the reality that Meta and Instagram, Facebook, they
knew these things were happening. These quotes are years old
that I just read. You pointed this out to them, too, Mr. Bejar,
and still they did nothing.
In fact, they did worse than nothing. And what your
testimony shows is, when you brought these concerns to them,
when you exposed this reality, rather than respond, they cooked
the books.
If I understand your testimony correctly, they started
telling the public, including Congress and, of course, every
parent in America that, ``Oh, we get 90 percent of unwanted
sexual material, child sex abuse material, pornography,
terrorism threats--we take it down. Our AI systems find it and
take it down.''
But what you expose is, in fact, those AI systems are
catching only a small, small percentage of that kind of abusive
material online.
So when Facebook is out there promoting to the world, ``Oh,
we're taking down the vast majority,'' it's simply not true.
And in fact, they know it's not true. And that statistic is
designed to mislead.
They are deliberately misleading parents about what's on
their platform. They are deliberately misleading parents about
the safety of their children online.
And I just want to echo something that Senator Blumenthal
has said: It is time for Congress to take action. It was time
years ago for Congress to take action. It is--it is an
indictment of this body, to be honest with you, that we have
not acted. And we all know the reason why.
If I could just start with a little plain talk here this
morning. Big Tech is the biggest, most powerful lobby in the
United States Congress. They spend millions upon millions upon
millions of dollars every year to lobby this body. And the
truth is, as every reporter in this room knows, and I hope
you'll report it after this hearing, they do it successfully.
They successfully shut down every meaningful piece of
legislation every year. I've only been here for 4 years and I
have seen it repeatedly, in the short time I have been here.
We'll get all kinds of speeches in Committee, we'll get
speeches on the floor about how we have to act, and then this
body will do nothing. Why? Money, that's why. Gobs of it. Gobs
of it--influencing votes. A hammer hold on this process.
It is time for it to be broken. And the only way I know to
break it is to bring the truth forward. And that's why we are
so glad, Mr. Bejar, that you are here today to do it. Thank
you, Mr. Chairman.
Chair Blumenthal. Thanks, Senator Hawley. The only footnote
I would add is, this time must be different.
Senator Hawley. That's right.
Chair Blumenthal. They have armies of lawyers and
lobbyists. They spend tons of money, but this time must be
different. Senator Durbin.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. RICHARD J. DURBIN,
A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF ILLINOIS
Chair Durbin. Thank you, Chairman Blumenthal and Senator
Hawley.
And let me follow up with Senator Hawley's comments. I
couldn't agree more. I could not agree more.
And in the Senate Judiciary Committee, after some graphic
hearings where parents and victims came forward and told us
what had happened to them online, we decided to take action.
We passed six bills related to this issue--child sexual
abuse and similar issues--six bills. And something happened
that was miraculous: All six passed unanimously. Every Democrat
and every Republican. Take a look at the folks who are up--are
on the ends of the table. It's across the political spectrum.
We all agreed on this. What has happened since? Nothing.
Six bills waiting for a day on the calendar. Six bills
waiting for a national debate. Six bills passed unanimously on
a bipartisan basis. And they put real teeth in enforcement,
too.
And I think that's why they've gone nowhere. Big Tech is
the big kid on the block when it comes to this issue--and many
other issues before us. That's the reality.
I want to thank Chairman Blumenthal and Senator Hawley for
bringing together so many Members at this hearing.
Our philosophy in putting together the Subcommittees was to
say to each of the Senators in charge of them, ``Do your best.
Take your issue that means something to you and do your best to
bring it to the American people and legislation to the floor of
the United States Senate.''
This Committee is one that I'm counting on to be successful
in this regard.
Mr. Bejar, thank you for the courage of stepping up and
speaking up. The only amendment I would make to the Chairman's
remarks and Senator Hawley's is, it's not only a parent's
issue, it's a grandparent's issue, too. We see this and it
scares the hell out of us.
So thank you for what you've brought us today. I'm
particularly intrigued by your idea of a survey so that we find
out from the source what's really happening.
My experience at Capitol Hill goes back several years. I
took on a tobacco issue. We were hitting our head against the
wall trying to penetrate this vast lobby at the time.
The one way we managed to penetrate it was to make it a
children's issue. Protecting kids from addiction to tobacco.
And then a lot of good things started happening.
Why is it that this issue, which relates to our kids so
much more and is so much more dangerous even than tobacco, in
my estimation, why is it so difficult?
Senator Hawley's correct. We're really fighting the biggest
kid on the block when it comes to this issue. Thank you, Mr.
Chairman.
Chair Blumenthal. Thanks very much, Senator Durbin and
thank you for your leadership on this issue.
I'm going to turn to Senator Graham if he has some opening
remarks, and then to Senator Blackburn.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. LINDSEY O. GRAHAM,
A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF SOUTH CAROLINA
Senator Graham. Very quickly. Maybe number seven is the
magic number of bills--the next bill, I hope.
And thank you Senator Blumenthal and Hawley for doing this,
is to sunset Section 230. The other bills are going nowhere
until they believe they can be sued in court. The day they know
the courtroom is open to their business practices, they will
flood us with all kind of good ideas.
Until that day comes, nothing's going to happen.
And I said as we passed them, ``They're going to go to the
floor to die and be on Senator Schumer, Senator McConnell.''
What's the House doing? Not much.
So the bottom line is, a society that cannot take care of
its children--or refuses to--has a bleak future.
So thank you for doing this.
Chair Blumenthal. Thanks, Senator Graham. Senator
Blackburn.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. MARSHA BLACKBURN,
A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF TENNESSEE
Senator Blackburn. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
And Mr. Bejar, thank you so much. Thank you for the time
that you've given Senator Blumenthal's staff, my staff, as
you've met with us, and for being so open when you met with
Senator Blumenthal and I last week. I really appreciate this.
As Senator Blumenthal said--and we have worked on this for
years, and he built the timeline out going to 2021.
But the work we were doing, looking at Big Tech and looking
at some of the problems, the lack of privacy, the frustration
of people not being able to control who had access to their
virtual ``you,'' is what led us to this point to begin to look
at what was happening to our children.
And, as I told you in our meeting, the day we had that
first hearing--looking at what was happening online with
children--it was like the floodgates opened. And we started
hearing from moms and dads--not only in Tennessee and not only
in Connecticut, but across the country--who were saying, ``Can
I please tell you my story? ''
The reason they did this is because their hearts were
breaking.
Their children had committed suicide.
Their children had met a drug dealer.
Their children had met a pedophile.
Their child had met a sex trafficker.
They had been exposed to cyber bullying and had committed
suicide.
They were looking up ways to commit suicide.
See, there are laws in the physical world that protect
children from all of this. But online, it has been the Wild
West. And as my colleagues have said, we have fought this army
of lobbyists for years.
Big Tech has proven they are completely incapable of
governing themselves, of setting up rules, of having
guidelines, of designing for safety. And it is so important
that we move forward with this.
Now, one thing I will add--and I think is so important for
your being here and for our colleagues that weren't a part of
what we were doing.
In 2021, Mr. Mosseri, when he came before us as the CEO of
Instagram, indicated they were taking steps.
But we find out they were not. We find out from the advice
and the awareness that you provided Mark Zuckerberg and Mr.
Mosseri, what did they do with that? They made a conscious
decision to ignore your advice and guidance and used our kids
as the product.
The longer they're online, the richer that data is.
The richer the data is, the more money they make.
So they have monetized what comes from our children being
addicted to social media.
Thank you so much for being here today. Thank you, Mr.
Chairman.
Chair Blumenthal. Thanks, Senator Blackburn.
Let me introduce--formally introduce the witness. Arturo
Bejar is a former security engineer with very significant
experience working on user safety and well-being.
At Facebook he served as director of engineering for
Protect and Care, a specific team at Facebook from 2009 to
2015. He reported to the CTO.
He then came back as a consultant to help Instagram's Well-
Being Team from 2019 to 2021. He is also a parent to a
courageous young girl--young woman who spoke up about her
experiences online.
Mr. Bejar, as is our custom, I'm going to administer the
oath to you now. If you would stand, please.
[Witness is sworn in.]
Chair Blumenthal. Thank you. Please go ahead.
STATEMENT OF ARTURO BEJAR, FORMER DIRECTOR OF ENGINEERING FOR
PROTECT AND CARE, FACEBOOK, BERKELEY, CALIFORNIA
Mr. Bejar. Chairman Durbin, Ranking Member Graham, Chairman
Blumenthal, Ranking Member Hawley, and Members of the
Subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to appear before
you and for your interest in addressing one of the most urgent
threats to our children today--to American children, and
children everywhere.
My name is Arturo Bejar, and I appear before you today as a
dad with firsthand experience of a child who received unwanted
sexual advances on Instagram.
As an expert with over 20 years of experience working as a
senior leader, including leading online security for--and
safety and protection at Facebook, it is unacceptable that a
13-year-old girl gets propositioned on social media.
Unfortunately, it happens all too frequently today. In a
carefully designed survey by Instagram in 2021, we found that
one in eight kids age 13 to 15 years old, experienced unwanted
sexual advances in the last 7 days.
This is unacceptable, and my work has shown that it doesn't
need to be this way.
Starting in 2009, I was the engineering and product leader
for Facebook's efforts to reduce online threats to both
children and adults. I met regularly with senior executives,
including Mark Zuckerberg, and they were supportive of this
work.
As a parent, I took the work personally, and I worked hard
to help create a safer environment. By the time I left in 2015,
I felt the work was going in the right direction.
A few years later, my 14-year-old daughter joined
Instagram. She and her friends began having awful experiences,
including repeated unwanted sexual advances, harassment. She
reported these incidents to the company and it did nothing.
In large part--because of what I learned as her father--in
October of 2019, I returned to Facebook, this time as a
consultant with Instagram's Well-Being Team.
We tried to set goals based on the experiences of teens
themselves. Instead, the company wanted to focus on enforcing
its own narrowly defined policies, regardless of whether that
approach reduced the harm that teens were experiencing. I
discovered that most of the tools for kids that we had put in
place during my earlier time at Facebook had been removed.
I observed new features being developed in response to
public outcry, which were, in reality, kind of a placebo--a
safety feature in name only to placate the press and
regulators.
I say this because rather than being based on user
experience data, they were based on very deliberately narrow
definitions of harm. The company was creating its own homework.
For example, Instagram knows when a kid spends a
significant amount of time looking at harmful content, content
that they are recommending. Meta must be held accountable for
their recommendations and for the unwanted sexual advances that
Instagram enables.
As soon as I understood this gap, I did what I had always
done. I researched the problem, vetted the numbers, and
informed Mark Zuckerberg, Sheryl Sandberg, and other
executives. I did this because for 6 years, that was my job, to
let them know of critical issues that affected the company.
It's been 2 years since I left, and these are the
conclusions I have come to.
One, Meta knows the harm that kids experience on their
platform, and the executives know that their measures fail to
address it.
Two, there are actionable steps that Meta could take to
address the problem.
And three, they are deciding time and time again to not
tackle these issues.
Instagram is the largest public directory of teenagers with
pictures in the history of the world. Meta, which owns
Instagram, is a company where all work is driven by data, but
it has been unwilling to be transparent about data regarding
the harm that kids experience and unwilling to reduce them.
Social media companies must be required to become more
transparent, so that parents and public can hold them
accountable.
Many have come to accept the false proposition that
sexualized content, unwanted advances, bullying, misogyny, and
other harms are unavoidable evil. This is just not true.
We don't tolerate unwanted sexual advances against children
in any other public context, and they can similarly be
prevented on Facebook, Instagram, and other social media
products.
What is the acceptable frequency for kids to receive
unwanted sexual advances? This is an urgent crisis.
When asked, ``Has anyone threatened you, damaged your
reputation, insulted you, disrespected you, excluded you, or
left you out? '' 11 percent of kids said, ``Yes, in the last
week.'' And one in four witnessed it happening, and the company
does nothing about that.
When asked if they saw a post that made them feel bad about
themselves, one in five kids said, ``Yes, in the last week.''
Meta executives know this. The public now knows this.
When I left Facebook in 2021, I thought the company would
take my concerns and recommendations seriously to heart--and
act. Yet years have gone by and millions of teens are having
their mental health compromised and are still being traumatized
by unwanted sexual advances, harmful content on Instagram and
other social media platforms.
There was a time when at home, on the weekend at least, a
kid could escape these things, these harms.
But today, just about every parent and grandparent has seen
their kids' faces change from happiness, to grief, to distress,
the moment that they check social media. Where can a child seek
refuge?
It's time the public and parents understand the true level
of harm enabled by these products, and it's time for Congress
to act. Thank you for your time.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Bejar appears as a
submission for the record.]
Chair Blumenthal. Thanks, Mr. Bejar.
We're going to now begin with questions and each of us will
ask 5 minutes of questions and because of the turnout, I'm
going to limit it to 5 minutes and then we'll have a second-
round if folks want to do that.
You know, we put in the record your memo to Mark Zuckerberg
of October 5th where you recommend that there be, in effect,
not only a change in the business practice of the company, but
a culture shift, as you call it. And then you wrote to Mr.
Mosseri separately on October 14th--I'm going to ask that that
document be made part of the record as well--where you
presented more of these statistics and very powerful evidence
of harm.
[The information appears as a submission for the record.]
Chair Blumenthal. And it seems to me that the reaction was
to pat you on the head and, in effect, tell you to go away, be
a good boy, and pull the curtain.
Senator Hawley has referred to cooking the books.
I think what they did was bury this evidence, conceal it,
hide it, and deny it, in effect, to Congress and to the public.
And then, in the past year, they've actually cut around
21,000 jobs or a quarter of the global workforce in what Mark
Zuckerberg has called the year of efficiency. Hundreds of jobs
involving content moderators and safety jobs, including from
Instagram's Well-Being Team. What is the impact of cutting
those resources devoted to online safety?
Mr. Bejar. Thank you for the question. If you start from
the point that the work was already heavily under-resourced
when I was there, that we were dealing 20 percent, 10 percent
of people experiencing this, and that there was a small
fraction of people dedicated to address that harm, and then
they take more resources away from that, including the people
who are doing the work to understand the harm that kids are
experiencing, then it seems to me that the company culture is
one of see no evil, hear no evil. We don't want to understand
what people are experiencing and we were not willing to invest
in that and the tools that will help.
Chair Blumenthal. Thank you. We spoke in advance of the
hearing and you told me a story about meeting with another
senior executive, Chris Cox, Facebook's chief product officer.
And it was just so striking to me that he already knew a lot of
the numbers and statistics and evidence of harm that you were
bringing to Mark Zuckerberg's attention. Why was this meeting
so memorable to you?
Mr. Bejar. When I returned in 2019, I thought they didn't
know. Like, when I began seeing a culture that was consistently
ignoring what teens were experiencing, I thought that
executives did not know.
And I did spend a year researching, vetting, validating
with people across the organization. And I would ask people,
``Do you know what percentage of people are experiencing this?
''
And nobody was able to answer off the top of their head.
The first person to do that was Chris Cox. And I found it
heartbreaking because it meant that they knew and that they
were not acting on it.
Chair Blumenthal. In effect, their expressed caring about
teens and safety and protecting children was all a charade, a
mockery. They already had the evidence that you were bringing
to their attention. They knew about it and they disregarded it.
Correct?
Mr. Bejar. Yes, that's correct.
Chair Blumenthal. And then they rejected your
recommendations for making Facebook and Instagram safer.
Correct?
Mr. Bejar. That's correct.
Chair Blumenthal. And let me ask you before we go to our
next Senator, do you think that we, the Congress of the United
States, should now act? Don't you think action is long overdue
in this area, given the total lack of credibility on the part
of social media?
Mr. Bejar. Yes. My experience after sending that email and
seeing what happened afterwards, is that they knew, there are
things they could do about it, they chose not to do them, and
we cannot trust them with our children. And it's time for
Congress to act. The evidence, I believe, is overwhelming.
Chair Blumenthal. I'm very hopeful that your testimony
added to the lawsuit that's been brought by attorneys general--
State attorneys general, across the country--I'm a former State
attorney general, I believe strongly in enforcement by them--
added to the interests that I think is evidenced by the turnout
of our Subcommittee today, will enable us to get the Kids
Online Safety Act across the finish line, along with measures
like Senator Durbin's proposals and others that can finally
break the straitjacket that Big Tech has imposed on us.
Big Tech is the next Big Tobacco. I fought Big Tobacco in
the 1990s. I sued Big Tobacco. I urged Congress to act. The
same kind of addictive product that Big Tobacco pedaled to kids
now is advanced to them and promoted and pitched by Big Tech.
And we need to break the straitjacket they've imposed through
their armies of lobbyists and lawyers. Thank you. Senator
Hawley.
Senator Hawley. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Bejar, thank you again for being here. I just want to
first establish a fact or two, just to make sure everybody
understands.
So on October the 5th, 2021, you composed an email, which
is now, I think, in the record, to Mark Zuckerberg, Sheryl
Sandberg, and a group of other executives at Meta. Am I right
so far?
Mr. Bejar. That's correct.
Senator Hawley. In that memo, you disclosed to them that
according to your own research, one in eight children--children
now, had experienced unwanted sexual advances within the last 7
days. Is that correct?
Mr. Bejar. That's correct.
Senator Hawley. And about one in three, I think it was 27
percent, had experienced unwanted sexual advances outside of
the 7-day window. So that is more than 7 days. Is that correct?
Mr. Bejar. That is correct.
Senator Hawley. Those numbers are astounding. I just want
to let that sink in. One in eight, within 7 days. A third of
children outside of that window. Mark Zuckerberg, did he reply
to you?
Mr. Bejar. He did not reply.
Senator Hawley. Did he meet with you?
Mr. Bejar. He did not meet with me.
Senator Hawley. Sheryl Sandberg, did she meet with you?
Mr. Bejar. She did not meet with me.
Senator Hawley. So in other words, the people who had
recruited you to come back to Facebook--Meta--whatever--it's
hard to keep up, they ignored your findings. When you presented
data to them, they didn't want to see. They turned a blind eye.
Let me ask you about something else. This is from The Wall
Street Journal's report earlier this year.
This is June of this year. They found the following, I'm
going to quote: ``Instagram helps connect and promote a vast
network of accounts openly devoted to the commission and
purchase of underage sex content. Pedophiles have long used the
internet, but, unlike the forums and file transfer services
that cater to people who have an interest in illicit content,
Instagram doesn't merely host these activities, Instagram's
algorithms promote them. Instagram connects pedophiles and
guides them to content sellers via recommendation systems that
excel at linking those who share these interests, The Journal
and academic researchers found.''
This is a stunning, stunning report, Mr. Bejar, that--that
more than buttresses, bears out what you were telling, trying
to tell the executives who ignored you. Just give us a sense,
in your own view, why do you think this is happening?
Why has Instagram become, in the words of The Wall Street
Journal, ``a vast pedophile network''? Why are people like your
daughter every time they get on Instagram, they're being
bombarded with unwanted sexual advances, sexual content. Why is
this happening?
Mr. Bejar. My experience of that is that most of the
resources, isn't close to all that they invest in this, go
toward this very narrow definition of harm. And so I would
encourage anybody here, when you're looking at this issue, if
you find an account that seems to be a pedophile account,
selling things, try and act on it. Try and raise it, see what
the company does with that.
But see what happens if you like it or follow it, what you
start getting recommended. And of all of the things that get
surfaced by the systems, how many of them are they acting on?
It's a fraction of a percent.
Senator Hawley. One of the things that you said changed
from the time you left Facebook in 2015, I think it was, and
came back in 2019, was that Facebook had shifted to an
automated driven process of safety standards, safety
inspection, monitoring for things like this, which they boast
about. They say that their AI is great, it's doing great work.
That doesn't appear, however, to be the actual fact. It appears
that these harms are proliferating. Tell us about the shift
toward automated safety monitoring and what that has meant in
your experience.
Mr. Bejar. I was not there for the shift, but what I can
say is that algorithms are as good as their inputs. So if you
don't allow a child to be, ``Oh, that is gross, it makes me
uncomfortable,'' right--which is something that you can do for
an ad today.
You can take an ad and say that is sexually inappropriate.
But there's no way for a child to do that when they get a
message or other areas.
How do these systems like even have a hope of addressing
these issues? How can they as a company have a hope of
addressing these issues if they're not willing to listen when a
teen is trying to tell them that they're experiencing gross
content, unwanted sexual advances? I mean, that's how you find
predators. That's how you find the bad things.
Senator Hawley. So what--what your research found, and what
you elevated to leadership was, at least in part, that these
automated systems were not catching the vast majority of this
unwanted content out there. I mean, the sexual advances of this
pedophile material, it simply doesn't begin to capture. Yet
Facebook didn't shift more resources, didn't change their
process.
And here's the thing that really gets me, and I'll end with
this, Mr. Chairman, I know there's others who want to question.
I have been reading over and over and over again [holds up
documents] this case filed by my home State, Missouri v.
Biden--landmark First Amendment case--in which two Federal
courts, a Federal district court and a Federal court of
appeals, have found that Facebook, among others, actively
coordinated with the present administration to censor First
Amendment-protected speech.
Not this garbage that is not protected by anything in our
Constitution, but First Amendment-protected speech.
Here's what gets me. What the courts found--this is in the
record, this is factual findings--is that Facebook devoted all
kinds of resources and people, actual human people to doing
things like monitoring posts on COVID-19 vaccine efficacy.
There's one example of a parent in my home State of Missouri
who wanted to post something about a school board meeting.
Facebook used human moderators to go and take down that post.
That was important. That has to come down. We can't have them
posting about school board meetings for heaven's sake.
But the things that your daughter experienced, this [holds
up documents]--this ring of pedophiles--rings, plural, that
Facebook just can't find the time for. They just don't have the
resources for it. That we just have to leave to, you know, let
the market have its effect. Let AI do its job. We just don't
have the resources for it.
They had plenty of resources to censor First Amendment
speech. No resources to protect our children. Absolutely
unconscionable.
Chair Blumenthal. Thanks, Senator Hawley. Senator Durbin.
Chair Durbin. Thanks for being here, Mr. Bejar. You said
earlier in your opening statement that when you worked for
these companies, they were data driven. What do you mean by
that?
Mr. Bejar. Everything at--everything at Meta--there's goals
based on numbers. There's fine-grained understanding of what is
happening. People set their jobs on that. The next 6 months,
I'm going to make this number go from this to that.
Chair Durbin. But the ultimate answer is they were dollar
driven, too. Correct?
Mr. Bejar. What I can speak to very directly is that in my
question to Adam was, you know, what percentage of teens should
be experiencing unwanted sexual advances? If there's not a team
that that's their goal, if they can't answer your questions
about, well, how many teens are impacted by this? And if they
cannot give you detailed data as to who's initiating those
contacts, then it's just not a priority.
Chair Durbin. But I--bottom line is this, they've made a
decision that it's not a priority to them because of profit
motive. Have they not? In terms of what it's going to cost them
in their business model if they have to interrupt it and
monitor the content.
Mr. Bejar. I think that would be a wonderful question to
ask Mark and Sheryl--well, Sheryl's no longer there--and Adam
because they can speak to why they made these choices. I can
only speak to the fact that they keep making these choices over
and over again.
Chair Durbin. Well, I would just back up what Senator
Graham said. If this becomes expensive to them to continue this
outrageous conduct, then they may pay closer attention. That's
for sure. But you have suggested here, as well, that we need a
survey of young people, as to their experience. You want to
explain that?
Mr. Bejar. Yes. The way that harm should be tracked on
these products is, you go up to teens and ask them, did you
receive an unwanted sexual advance in the last 7 days? And they
are going to know, it doesn't matter what the message is.
And then what you can do to help that teen is give them a
chance to tell you. And the measures that I talk about are not
even expensive to implement.
Chair Durbin. We were also briefed by the DEA in terms of
narcotics transactions and the use of platforms for that
purpose. Did you ever look into that issue?
Mr. Bejar. I did not directly, but what you can do is, if
you look at the numbers that I provided the Committee, there is
a category for that class of issues. And you should ask the
company how much of that content, which teens experience as
that, they take down.
Chair Durbin. It's interesting to me that if one of my
kids, when they were kids--our grandkids now--came home and
said there was somebody lurking outside the playground at
school that make the kids feel uncomfortable. We would know
what to do and to move on it quickly. We'd find it
unacceptable.
And yet what we know for a reality is that there is danger
lurking in the iPhones that they're opening up every single
day. And yet we seem to feel that we are unable to respond to
this. I hope we can change that.
Senator Graham's suggestion about 230, I don't know. Do you
have any thoughts on that? Section 230?
Mr. Bejar. No, I'm not qualified to talk about 230. But I
can say that these companies should be held accountable for the
content they recommend.
Chair Durbin. Well, I certainly agree with that. I think
that is the bottom line. Thank you for your testimony.
Mr. Bejar. Thank you.
Chair Blumenthal. Thanks, Senator Durbin. Senator Graham.
Senator Graham. Thank you. You're doing the country great
service here.
Did they contest your memo? Did anybody call you up and say
you don't know what you're talking about, you're wrong?
Mr. Bejar. No. I must have spoken to 20 or 30 people,
including Adam Mosseri, saying, ``Do you have any feedback?
Any--anything that's inaccurate in my data? '' And nobody did.
Senator Graham. Okay. Is it--to sum up your testimony, is
it fair to say that in its current form what you're describing
is a dangerous product?
Mr. Bejar. Correct.
Senator Graham. And that millions of families are affected
by this dangerous, dangerous product?
Mr. Bejar. Correct.
Senator Graham. As a father who had a 13-year-old affected
by this product, did you feel helpless?
Mr. Bejar. I did. And I was, if one that could help, it
would've been me.
Senator Graham. If you could have sued them, would you?
Mr. Bejar. I apologize, could you repeat the question?
Senator Graham. If you could sue on behalf of your
daughter, would you?
Mr. Bejar. I believe they just have to be held to account
and being transparent about----
Senator Graham. Okay. Well one way of doing that is to sue
them. Do you know you can't sue them under the current law?
Mr. Bejar. I did not know that.
Senator Graham. Okay. All right. So they--your daughter
felt harmed. Your testimony is, millions of people are in the
same situation as your daughter. They know what they're doing
and they keep doing it anyway. Is that all correct?
Mr. Bejar. That is correct.
Senator Graham. I can't think of a company in the world
that can do this crap and not get sued except these people.
Now, if you had to give sovereign immunity, basically what
we've done here, to a group of people, this would be on the
bottom of my list, not the top of my list. So I've just asked
my office to find out how much money I've received from
Facebook, Instagram, and other companies. I'm going to give it
back.
I think we all--ought to all boycott the giving because if
Senator Hawley's right, I think you are, their leverage here is
just power over the political system.
So I'm calling on every Member of Congress today, don't
take their money until they change. Don't accept what they're
offering you until they change. Because the money you're
receiving is coming from people that have created a dangerous
product for children and they seem not to be willing to change.
That'd be on the bottom of my list, now that I know what
you've told me, of people I want to associate myself with. Have
you ever heard them talk about being afraid of anything or
anybody?
Mr. Bejar. I have not.
Senator Graham. That's amazing, isn't it? Companies this
big, he's telling them what you're doing is hurting people,
they're indifferent to it. But they feel like they're immune
from action because they pretty much are.
Bottom line, if we did create a system where parents like
you could sue and hold them liable in court, do you think that
may change your behavior?
Mr. Bejar. That is not for me to say. I just want my
daughter, our kids to have the tools that they need when
they're experiencing these things.
Senator Graham. Yes. Well what I will tell you is that I
believe it would. We'll never know till we try. I think we
should dedicate ourselves on this Committee--which has been a
pleasure to serve on Senator Durbin, all of you have been great
on this issue--to not just pass bills, but insist on change.
The ultimate change comes, my colleagues, is when they can
be held liable in a court of law. Until you open up the
courthouse, nothing's going to change. The day you do, you'll
be amazed how many good ideas they knew about they didn't tell
us. So I'm going to dedicate what time I have left in this
business to opening up the courtroom because I don't think
nothing else will do. And until that day comes, I'm not going
to take any of their money.
If every Member of Congress says, ``Your money is not
welcome till you change,'' that might be the first step toward
change.
Thank you for your bravery. Sorry, what happened to your
daughter. We owe you and everybody in your situation better.
Thank you.
Chair Blumenthal. Thanks, Senator Graham. And that's why
many of us have joined you in the call for abolishing Section
230, including the Ranking Member and myself. Senator
Klobuchar.
Senator Klobuchar. Thank you very much, Senator Blumenthal.
Thank you for those words, Senator Graham.
I am a strong believer in, ``We can talk about this and
have hearings and keep reminding people that we need to get
things done, but until we change the law, these are no longer
companies that started in a garage with two guys tinkering
around with platforms or computers or in their college dorm
room.'' Okay?
This is real lives that are getting lost, and I really
appreciate Mr. Bejar that you are willing to come forward and
testify.
I'm going to focus on one area that I don't think we've
talked about enough, and that is the platform's inability and
refusal to take down sites that are selling dangerous drugs.
Recently the DEA found that one-third of drug cases had
direct ties to social media. I was just in Minnesota with a
mom, Bridget who lost her kid. And the kid literally ordered
one pill--as we say, one pill kills--on the internet thinking
it was something else. It was laced with fentanyl. As the mom
said--as Bridget said, ``All of the hopes and dreams we as
parents had were erased in the blink of an eye. And no mom
should have to bury their kid.''
That's why Senator Durbin and I and others on this
Committee have been working with Senators Shaheen and Marshall,
as well as Senator Grassley on this bill that has come through
this Committee already, and needs to go to the floor along with
another of other bills we've talked about--to require social
media companies to report fentanyl and other dangerous drug
sales on their platforms.
In the words of our DEA Administrator, they have
basically--the cartels, who don't really care if people die or
not because no one knows it--in Mexico and China, have
basically harnessed these platforms. Do social media companies
have the correct incentives to identify and eliminate drug
sales to kids?
Mr. Bejar. Thank you for the question and the concern on
all of those important things. Until there is disclosure of
what kids experience as drug content, sexual content, until
there is transparency about these things, I don't know what the
incentive is. Which is why I think transparency is so
essential.
You know, as parents and grandparents, we see it, we
understand it, we know how frequent it is. That's what the
numbers they have to share. And if I would want one thing for
everybody here to know, is that when we talk about any category
that you care about, for example, drugs, and then when the
company talks about that category, they're likely talking about
a fraction of a percent of what we as a society are
experiencing.
Senator Klobuchar. Exactly. And we all know there's a lot
of other things to do with fentanyl including at the border,
but this would be a major game changer for the ability to take
these cases on.
Prosecutors have also reported an emerging trend where
offenders collect photos of children that may fall just shy of
the definition of child pornography and distribute them on
websites with the intent to harass or abuse the child victims.
And there was a major story on this in The Washington Post.
Senator Cornyn and I have a Bill, the SHIELD Act, to fill
in gaps in Federal law so that prosecutors can hold those who
abuse kids in this way accountable. In your role as a person at
Facebook who was responsible for efforts to keep users safe,
can you talk about the deficiencies in current policies?
Mr. Bejar. Thank you for the question. If you look at
content that sexualizes minors, again, the question is, is that
something that actually violates company policy and would be
removed, and is that what the company is acting on?
Or does it end up being something that, because it is
content that the company does not act on, they actually end up
recommending and distributing? Right?
And as a parent, we see this. Right? If you were to look
and open the app and look for it, you can find it, and then if
you like it, you get recommended it. And these are all things
that the company is, I believe, aware of, in terms of reach,
and can do things about and have chosen not to do so.
Senator Klobuchar. Okay, very good. I think--I was
listening to Senator Graham, and he's right that there's one
big thing we can do is to allow these cases to go forward in
court. But I also think some of these things I'm discussing,
actually makes it easier for people to proceed with these cases
and create incentives.
And one thing I'd add, I'll ask it on the record, is that
Senator Coons, Senator Cassidy--and I think Senator
Blumenthal's involved--have a bill to allow independent
researchers to look at the algorithms that you know are
designed in a way that manipulates these kids and can lead to
their deaths, to require these digital platforms to give
independent researchers access to data. And I just--yes or no,
I figure you think this would be helpful?
Mr. Bejar. Yes.
Senator Klobuchar. Yes. Okay, very good. Just again, thank
you. And we can, again, talk about this all we want and we'll
remember you and your story. But until we get these things and
are allowed floor time by both sides and can maybe put them
together into one package, we're just not going to get the
solutions that we need. Because just getting mad at these
platforms haven't changed their conduct.
Chair Blumenthal. Thanks. Thanks, Senator Klobuchar.
Senator Kennedy.
Senator Kennedy. Mr. Bejar, social media can make people
less lonely. Can it not?
Mr. Bejar. It can do that.
Senator Kennedy. Social media can deliver insight. Can it
not?
Mr. Bejar. It can.
Senator Kennedy. Social media when used properly can give
voice to the timid. Can it not?
Mr. Bejar. It can.
Senator Kennedy. Social media can also spread hate. Can't
it?
Mr. Bejar. It can.
Senator Kennedy. And isn't it a fact that much of social
media, not all, but much of social media has become a cesspool
of snark?
Mr. Bejar. What I can speak to Senator, is, it happens all
so often and it doesn't need to be that way.
Senator Kennedy. Yes. But is it that way for much of, not
all, but much of social media?
Mr. Bejar. One of the numbers that I talk about is this 20
percent of kids who witnessed bullying in the last 7 days. And
this is content that does not get taken down. If people comment
on it, it gets promoted.
Senator Kennedy. Yes. Well, let me put it another way. I'm
trying to sum this up for us. Isn't it a fact that social media
has lowered the cost of being an a-hole?
[Laughter.]
Mr. Bejar. Yes.
Senator Kennedy. And isn't it true that social media
removes any geographical border to the harassment of others?
Mr. Bejar. Yes.
Senator Kennedy. And isn't it true that some forms of
social media optimize for engagement?
Mr. Bejar. Yes. I think using your term, they reward being
an a-hole.
Senator Kennedy. Yes. And isn't it true that some forms of
social media use surveillance to identify our and our kids' hot
buttons?
Mr. Bejar. I cannot speak to that.
Senator Kennedy. Isn't it true that some forms of social
media use algorithms to show us and our kids stuff that pushes
those hot buttons?
Mr. Bejar. I will say this. Recently, my daughter had
somebody go into one of her posts about cars and said, ``You
know, you'd like to drive and you like cars because you saw a
man doing it.'' And she said, ``I'm studying automotive
restoration. I've been doing this for years. I know a lot about
cars. I am more than qualified.'' And the person shot back,
``No--women just belong in the passenger seat.''
And to every point that you just made, I will say that when
I asked her about that post, if she would delete it, because
she knows reporting would do nothing, she said, ``I will not
delete it because I'm worried that that will mean that less
people will see my posts.''
Senator Kennedy. All right. I'm not going to ask you this
question. I'm going to make the statement because you're
probably not familiar with Louisiana. But in my State, social
media has impacted the news media, particularly print media.
Thank God for our TV news and our radio news. But when it comes
to our print media, we're--we in Louisiana--and that's print
media and paper, paper and print media, which is on the
internet--when it comes to print media, we in Louisiana are a
news desert. We've only got about two real non-news print media
journalists left who are fair and aren't opinion journalists.
Most of our print media members are now sports journalists--
which is fine, I love sports. But there's a lot else going on
in the world. Let me wrap up this way. What you do is what you
believe. Isn't it?
Mr. Bejar. It is.
Senator Kennedy. And everything else is just cottage
cheese. Isn't it?
Mr. Bejar. It is.
Senator Kennedy. Yes. I look forward to the day when
Members of the United States Senate will come together and
establish a new rule, not used every day or every week, or
every month, or even every year. But that rule would say, when
there is a consensus, and when you, as a Senator, can
demonstrate that you have 60 votes to pass a bill, that you
have the right to bring that bill to the floor of the United
States Senate, no matter who doesn't want it. Thank you, Mr.
Chairman.
Chair Blumenthal. Thanks, Senator Kennedy. Senator Hirono.
Senator Hirono. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Mr.
Bejar for testifying.
I was curious about the fact that so many of the young
people on these platforms are exposed to cyber bullying, and
that can be anything. Your daughter experienced some of that
because of some of the things that she posted online.
So--but there is also an addictive quality to keeping these
kids online. And for the platforms, keeping these kids online
means money for them. What is it that--is there anything we can
do to address the addictive aspect of what is happening to our
young people where they continue to go on to these platforms
and expose themselves to this kind of harmful content?
Mr. Bejar. Thank you for the question. I think that it is
essential to have good data about the impact that this product
has. And it's not that difficult. You could take a teenager
after half an hour and go, like, ``How are you doing? ''----
Senator Hirono. Mm-hmm.
Mr. Bejar [continuing]. ``Are you feeling better or worse?
'' And then use that information.
Senator Hirono. Let's say that we have this kind of data as
to the harmful impact. What do you think we should do?
Mr. Bejar. I think that products should adopt measures, and
where appropriately compelled, to figure out a good way to help
teens have a use of the product that serves them.
Because I think what happens right now is it distresses
them. And what I experienced as a parent, and I think every
parent here has experienced, is that sense of urgency, of
needing to be on there, and the impact that it has on their
emotions.
Senator Hirono. Do the young people understand the harmful
impact themselves? Would it help if--part of your testimony is
about how all of us should be--should understand what is
happening. Would it help if the kids themselves also understand
the harmful impacts? This is also an aspect of education, for
example, of the young people. Would that help?
Mr. Bejar. I think it helps to educate young people. I
think what helps in my experience the most is changes to the
product so that it's less harmful. And it's those changes and
the refusal to do those changes is why I'm here.
Senator Hirono. So right now, there's not much incentive
for these platforms to change their product because they face
no consequences for the content.
So meanwhile, dozens of States, including the State of
Hawaii, where I come from, have sued these companies, including
Meta, alleging that they designed their products to harm users.
And I think all or most of these cases have been consolidated
in California. The defendants are saying that they are limited
in their liability exposure because of Section 230.
You're not a lawyer, but if these companies were exposed to
legal liability and of these lawsuits--they are still pending,
by the way. And if the companies are found liable and forced to
pay money as a result of these lawsuits, do you think that
would change their behavior as far as them paying attention to
the harmful impact of the contents on their platforms?
Mr. Bejar. I'm not a lawyer, and I'm not qualified to weigh
in on that.
Senator Hirono. No. But you did testify that it's all about
money for these companies. That's why they keep doing what they
do. And if they were exposed to--if they had to pay money as a
result of their content, do you think that would change their
behavior?
Mr. Bejar. My hope is, and what I believe will change their
behavior is, it's the moment that Mark Zuckerberg, when he
declares earnings, he has to say, ``Last quarter we made $34
billion''----
Senator Hirono. Mm-hmm.
Mr. Bejar [continuing]. And the next thing he has to say
is, ``And in Instagram, this is the percentage of teens that
experienced unwanted sexual advances.'' That number would go
down very quickly.
Senator Hirono. How would it go down?
Mr. Bejar. Because it would be incentivized to work on it.
Because right now, there are no goals to reduce unwanted sexual
advances, as far as I am aware.
Senator Hirono. Except that if they are--if there's no law
that prevents them from having these kinds--this kind of
content, or there are no court cases, they're not held
responsible for content, then the fact that people know that
they have an incentive, that they have exposed these kids, so
what? Right?
They--and this is why there's so much attention being paid
to Section 230 and the limited liability, in fact, no
liability. They are protected from content of--they do try, I
suppose, and you say that they have a very limited definition
of what is harmful content.
But on the other hand, I'm all for doing more than we are
currently doing. But, you know, one of the things that can also
happen, I read a letter asking the FTC to investigate matters--
alleged practice of censoring advertisements for health
products related to menstruation.
And there Meta decided that this kind of advertisements was
harmful. I hardly call that a very narrow definition of harm.
So all these companies, left to their own devices, they get
to choose what they deem to be harmful. And the examples that
you cite, it's a very limited definition. But this, the example
I cite, they've decided that women's health products, that is
harmful and they're going to censor those kinds of products.
So, you know, this is--it's a lot more complicated than at
first, I guess, glimpse. But I know we're going to try and do
something. So thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chair Blumenthal. Thanks, Senator Hirono. Senator
Blackburn.
Senator Blackburn. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And thank you
for your testimony and your frankness. I know that we
appreciate it.
And my State of Tennessee, we have attorneys here from our
Attorney General's office today, and they are pushing to also
get something done about the overreach of Facebook. And we're
grateful that so many States have stepped up to hold Facebook
and Meta to task. So we appreciate this.
I want to return us to December 2021, and Chairman
Blumenthal mentioned this. He and Ic, at the Senate Commerce
Consumer Protection Subcommittee that we led, had Mr. Mosseri
in front of us. And you were consulting for Instagram at that
time. Correct?
Mr. Bejar. So what is the date again?
Senator Blackburn. December 2021.
Mr. Bejar. I had left at that point.
Senator Blackburn. You had left at that point. Okay. And a
few months earlier, you sent him two emails that talked about
youth harms on the platform. Correct?
Mr. Bejar. Correct.
Senator Blackburn. Okay. Now I'm going to quote you some
things from his testimony. He said, and I quote, ``We care
deeply about the teens on Instagram, which is in part why we
research complex issues like bullying and social comparison and
make changes.'' Do you agree with that characterization?
Mr. Bejar. I agree with that they make research. I don't
agree that they make changes.
Senator Blackburn. Okay. So they have the info, they take
no action. He also said, ``We don't allow people to bully or
harass other people on Instagram, and have rules in place that
prohibit this type of conduct. We've also built tools that
prevent bullying from happening in the first place, and empower
people to manage their accounts so they never have to see it,''
end quote. Do you agree with that?
Mr. Bejar. I think it's profoundly misleading, because at a
time at which the public statistic was a fraction of a percent.
Right? One in five teens had watched it happening--like 10
percent experienced it. And you have to bear in mind they're
standing right there. And if this was a school, that would be
completely unacceptable.
Senator Blackburn. I agree. Let me give you one more.
Talking about the executives, and I'm interested to see how
they reacted to the information that came out in 2021 about
their disregard for harms to minors.
Do you think that Meta executives were motivated to do more
or to address the problem? Or were they interested in covering
up what was going on at Meta at the time?
Mr. Bejar. I think you will need to ask them about their
intentions. But I also deeply believe that actions speak louder
than words.
Senator Blackburn. Did any of the members of Meta's team,
whether it was Zuckerberg, Sandberg, Cox--did any of them
respond to your email in a way that suggested that they were
going to take an action to correct the wrongs?
Mr. Bejar. No. For 6 years, when I sent that kind of
message, I would get a meeting within 24 hours to spend
meaningful amount of time talking with them and what needed to
be dealt with.
And in this case, the lack of response, the meeting
sometime later, and then the lack of action, again speaks about
the fact that they, you know----
Senator Blackburn. So they sloughed it off----
Mr. Bejar. It was----
Senator Blackburn [continuing]. Money was more important
than protecting children?
Mr. Bejar. I think you should ask them that question.
Senator Blackburn. Okay. I would be interested to know who
took responsibility for making policy determinations about
youth safety? And one conversation you had with my staff, you
suggested that Mark Zuckerberg had a hand in such decisions
during your first stint at the company. But that when you
returned, he would tell employees not to raise youth safety
issues to him. Is that accurate?
Mr. Bejar. In my first stint, he would be--he, Chris Cox,
and Sheryl, would be who you raise these issues to, and they
would engage very proactively. Having done that for 6 years,
that's why I felt I was probably one of the most qualified
people in the world to bring it to their attention.
I was not aware when I brought--sent my email that it was
hard to talk to Mark about this, but I could say that my
experience of how the entire company was behaving when it came
to the harms that teens were experiencing, was a culture issue
that was grinding on that decision, which in my experience,
prioritizing prevalence over harm, is something that Mark sets
direction for that whole executive team. And that's why I
realized it was necessary to appeal directly to them.
Senator Blackburn. So they were aware.
Mr. Bejar. Correct.
Senator Blackburn. They knew that harms were taking place.
Mr. Bejar. Correct.
Senator Blackburn. They had the research that pointed this
out--their own research.
Mr. Bejar. Correct.
Senator Blackburn. And they made a conscious decision to do
nothing about it.
Mr. Bejar. Correct.
Senator Blackburn. Did they ever talk about profits as
opposed to enacting these protections?
Mr. Bejar. Not in my presence.
Senator Blackburn. Not in your presence. Okay.
So other than Mark Zuckerberg, who would've claimed
responsibility for dealing with youth safety and youth harms?
Mr. Bejar. It would have----
Senator Blackburn. Anyone?
Mr. Bejar [continuing]. Adam Mosseri for Instagram.
Senator Blackburn. So, Adam. Okay. Thank you for that. My
time's expired. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chair Blumenthal. Thanks, Senator Blackburn. Senator Welch.
Senator Welch. Thank you very much. I just want to start by
acknowledging my gratitude to my colleagues on this Committee
for the work that you have been doing on a bipartisan basis.
Senator Blackburn and I began working together when we were
both in the House together and introduced, I think, the first
Privacy bill.
So I haven't been with you in this effort, but I was with
Senator Blackburn. And I can't elaborate on the excellent
opening statements Senator Blumenthal and Senator Hawley, that
you made, and I guess in our phrase, I'd like to associate
myself with your remarks.
But I do want to, on my own behalf, express my shock at
what's happening to our kids and how it's all because there's a
lot of money to be made. And your questions Senator Blackburn
revealing just the disregard for the mental health of our kids
is--is truly shocking. So I'm all in with you on your efforts
here.
I'm also delighted that in Vermont, our attorney general
has joined the lawsuit. And also I want to thank you for your
stepping forward and providing such clarity, and also embedded
in the concern that you have, not just for your daughter, but
for all of our kids.
A couple of issues that have come up from letters that I've
received and comments--and I know you're getting the same
questions as well is from--and I want to make sure we can do
this legislation that doesn't do any harm. And I've been
receiving a number of letters from folks in the LGBT community
who are concerned that some of this legislation included the
KOSA Act would compromise their ability to get together online
and be mutually supportive. And I support that.
So is it, I just want you to talk a little bit about how,
if we proceed with the legislation, which I hope we do, we're
not in any way going to interfere with the capacity of kids who
legitimately are getting together, mutually supporting, none of
the exploitive stuff. Can we accomplish that?
Mr. Bejar. Thank you for the question. I cannot speak to
the legislation. I think--I trust that you are extraordinarily
qualified for that part. I think that my job here is to help
bring light to the harms----
Senator Welch. Right.
Mr. Bejar [continuing]. That these teams are experiencing.
And the fact that the way the company talks about them, in my
experience, is misleading.
Senator Welch. Okay. And that's based on all your years
really at the forefront of Facebook.
Mr. Bejar. Correct. And then the other thing I really would
want you to know, and for any kid that, again, ends up having
these awful experiences, it does not need to be this way.
Right? There ought--Instagram is standing right next to them as
these things are happening, and they should be able, and I know
because I built these kinds of things for 6 years, they should
be able to turn and say, ``Can you please help me with this?
''----
Senator Welch. Right.
Mr. Bejar [continuing]. And then get help with whatever's
happening for them. And today, that is not the case.
Senator Welch. So it's the exploitative content that's in
the algorithms that you're focusing on, and I think all of us
are.
Mr. Bejar. I think you--no, it's--it's actually--it's when
somebody says in front--you're talking at school and you're in
the hallway and somebody comes to you and says, ``I'm going to
make sure that you don't get invited to any party ever again.''
Right? The only people around you hear that. And if that
happens online, that is a post that implies a person--doesn't
name them----
Senator Welch. Right.
Mr. Bejar [continuing]. Never gets removed, is incredibly
distressing to the teen. And the kind of stuff I am talking
about, because I deeply care about every child we can talk
about in every context, is that, that child who gets like left
out, insulted because of the reasons that Chairman Blumenthal
outlined, that child should be able to get help independent of
what the content is. And I believe that's important for all
children, no matter what their gender or----
Senator Welch. Right. No, I share that. By the way, another
question that's come up is about encryption. And there's real
privacy benefits to maintaining an encryption. So I would hope
that any legislation that we have wouldn't compromise the
privacy rights of individuals who are on the internet.
Mr. Bejar. I deeply believe in privacy and in everything
that I'm talking about. Right? If a child gets a direct
message, right, that makes them uncomfortable, hurts them, it
doesn't matter what the content is, it ought to be, ``My house,
my rules.''
Senator Welch. Right.
Mr. Bejar. It only matters that that child feels
uncomfortable, and is able to say, which is what I asked Adam,
can we please add a button when a child receives this message
that says like, ``Please help me.'' ``What's going on? ''
``Somebody's being like, really mean to me.''
Senator Welch. Right.
Mr. Bejar. And it doesn't matter what the content is, that
child deserves help.
And if somebody's initiating those messages, sending those,
going into those kids' houses and telling them these things,
then step number one----
Senator Welch. Yes.
Mr. Bejar [continuing]. They should know that's not
appropriate. And if they keep doing it, then other things can
be brought to bear.
Senator Welch. Thank you. So kids first.
Mr. Bejar. Absolutely.
Senator Welch. Thank you. I yield back.
Chair Blumenthal. Thanks, Senator Welch. Senator Cornyn.
Senator Cornyn. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Bejar for being
here and your courage and your testimony.
You know, I think we've met the enemy, and the enemy is us.
We actually have six bills that Senator Durbin referred to that
were voted out of the Judiciary Committee. But in the Senate,
the only person who can actually schedule those bills for vote
is the Majority Leader, Senator Schumer.
And so I would suggest that we focus our attention on
trying to get Senator Schumer to schedule a vote on those six
pieces of legislation. There's--that would be a good start. But
we can talk about it, but without that happening, nothing is
going to happen in the Senate.
So one wise person said one time, when trying to figure out
a complex topic like this, follow the money.
You keep--you've mentioned a number of times that data--do
social media applications like Instagram and Facebook collect
huge volumes of data about the users?
Mr. Bejar. They do.
Senator Cornyn. And that data is then used mainly for
advertising products. For example, it's amazing to me when I go
to a website and I look at something, let's say a piece of
hunting gear, next thing I know on my Instagram, an
advertisement from that same company shows up.
And the way that that happens is that Instagram, Facebook,
X or formerly known as Twitter, sells that data to companies
who then use that information to promote their products. Isn't
that correct?
Mr. Bejar. I'm not an expert in that domain.
Senator Cornyn. Well, that's what--that's how they make
money. Right?
Mr. Bejar. They make money through advertising.
Senator Cornyn. Yes. Well, I was shocked to read an article
here in the MIT Technology Review, which talks about, it's
shockingly easy to buy sensitive data about U.S. military
personnel.
Duke University did a study at the request of West Point
and others, and determined for as little as 12 cents per record
that data brokers would sell sensitive information on U.S.
military members and veterans. Does that--would that surprise
you?
Mr. Bejar. Again, this is not an area where I have any
expertise. I mean, I have expertise from the perspective of
being a security professional and ensuring that the systems do
what they're set to do. But I don't have expertise on how the
data gets brokered.
Senator Cornyn. Well, I think it's pretty much common
knowledge that that's the case--that this data accumulated by
social media companies is then sold. And that's the reason why
when you go on Instagram or Facebook, you don't actually have
to pay a subscription or a fee.
And they've talked about if they couldn't recover that
revenue from selling that data about me, Chairman Blumenthal,
the Ranking Member Hawley and others, or your daughter, then
they would have to charge a fee in order to make this
economical. But they don't do that because they can sell your
data.
And as shocking as what you have discovered, and you shared
with us today about this one social media company, the truth is
this is not unique to Instagram or Facebook. Correct?
Mr. Bejar. Correct. It's the entire social media sector
that serves teens.
Senator Cornyn. And here in the Congress, we've talked a
lot about our concern about China's increasing belligerency,
and militancy, and buildup of its, not only its economy, but
its military, and threatening peace in Asia and elsewhere.
But we're also--have talked a lot about apps like TikTok,
for example, that are Chinese applications that then do much as
Instagram does and vacuum up all this data, addict our children
by using the algorithms or codes to figure out what to
recommend to them.
And again, this is all about the data, and all about the
money.
And of course, Senator Durbin mentioned the use of social
media applications when it comes to selling drugs. You know,
fentanyl, synthetic opioid is a single leading cause of death
for 18- to 45-year-olds in America today. And much of it is
transacted, those sales and promotions through the use of
social media. And then there's other scary things like
deepfakes. Do you know what a deepfake is?
Mr. Bejar. I do.
Senator Cornyn. What is it?
Mr. Bejar. It is when you use technology to create an image
that appears to be a person, but it's not an actual video or a
photograph of that person.
Senator Cornyn. And I've read in the last couple of days
that deepfakes are now being used to basically portray young
girls for sexual--sexual gratification using these deepfakes--
fake, false images due to this incredible technology. Which, as
Senator Kennedy pointed out, could be used for a lot of good,
but it could be also used for ill, as well.
I know our time is short here today. I just want to thank
you for answering some of these questions. We have a lot of
work to do here in the Senate and in the Congress, and as
parents and grandparents and to try to protect our children.
I'm just--thank goodness my daughters are adults now, and they
don't live in the--you know, they aren't of an age of Senator
Hawley's kids or others'. But the first thing we need to do,
Mr. Chairman, is ask the one person who can actually schedule a
floor vote on some of the bills that passed unanimously out of
the Senate Judiciary Committee to schedule a vote. We could do
that next week, but he's got to make it happen. Thank you.
Chair Blumenthal. Thanks, Senator Cornyn. I can't speak for
Senator Schumer, but I know he is vitally interested in reform
in this area, and I'm sure that he will make that interest real
on the floor of the Senate at the right time. Senator Butler.
Senator Butler. Thank you, Chair Blumenthal and Ranking
Member Hawley. As a mom, this is a topic that I could not not
show up to engage in.
And I want to--appreciate your leadership, Mr. Bejar, for
fighting for and leading on behalf of not just my daughter, but
America's children--and I know not just your own.
I appreciate very much also your comments to my colleague
here, Senator Welch. Specifically, when you're talking about
taking an all children approach. I want to direct my comments
to really engage in a space that where maybe all children--the
all children approach hasn't necessarily been taken. And I'd
love to get your thoughts on some gaps that we could try to
fill.
Now you know and we know that the internet can be a hateful
place. We've talked about that today.
I understand that among your research in Meta's user
experience, you looked into instances of identity-based
hostilities on the platform, and you found that over a quarter
of Instagram users under the age of 16 said they witnessed
hostility against someone based on their race, religion, or
identity, within the last week.
One study published in the Journal of American Academy of
Children and Adolescent Psychiatry looked at the issue of
online racial discrimination between March and November of
2020. It found that Black youth experienced increases on online
racial discrimination that their white counterparts did not.
And those instances of discrimination predicted worsened same
day and next day, mental health amongst Black youth.
Mr. Bejar, can you talk with us a little bit about what
more you think the company should be doing to protect against
these kinds of racial and ethnic harassments and hostility
online?
Mr. Bejar. Sorry. The fact that a child today, white,
Black, any identity, right, gets called out in front of the
entire shared audience--again, the difference between when this
happens in a school and when it happens online. Right? Go home,
ask him, ask your child, what would you do? What can you do?
And there's no way for that child to say, ``This is what's
happening to me: Somebody's being really mean to me.'' And I
use that language because 10 years ago, Facebook knew this. We
knew that in order to help a child dealing with an issue and
help them, you have to hear the words that they use.
A 13-year-old does not like to report things because
they're worried they're going to get in trouble and get other
people in trouble. So you tell them, ``Would you like some
help? '' And if you look at the work that I submitted from 10
years ago, you should be able to say, you know, ``This is like
awful for me because of my identity''--any form of that.
And the company should be able to take that into account to
help that child be protected, and then get them resources. And
then also make sure that that is not acceptable behavior in the
community.
Because the most tragic thing about that 20 percent number
witnessing these kinds of attacks, is that the lack of action
on part of the company and the very narrow definition of the
content that they would take down, means that they're
normalizing the behavior----
Senator Butler. Yes.
Mr. Bejar [continuing]. Children watch and children learn
from the way other children are behaving.
Senator Butler. And just to follow up a little bit, what
would it look like to create a good experience? Is it the--just
the simple, the ability to sort of exercise some agency and the
button that you're asking--that you're making reference to?
Mr. Bejar. It's a process. So if it's on direct messages,
you have a button, you record that somebody initiated that
message. And one of the questions for the platforms is, you
know, how many, like, hateful or harassing messages should
somebody be able to send before you tap them on the shoulder
and you tell them that it's not appropriate behavior. Right?
So it creates information that you can then act on----
Senator Butler. Right.
Mr. Bejar [continuing]. If somebody keeps doing it, then
you know that they're up to no good, and then you can take
further measures. And so without this data, any systems
cannot--do not have a hope of making a safer environment for
youth.
Senator Butler. And what do you think has been the barrier
for companies? We're talking about the companies that you have
the most experience with. What do you think is the barrier to
change, and what do you think could help to create that--to
overcome that barrier?
Mr. Bejar. I think they're just not incentivized to make
this change. That's why nothing has changed. It's been 2 years.
And, you know, our kids do not have that button in their direct
messaging where the content doesn't matter, to say, ``This
makes me uncomfortable.'' But you can say it about an ad, for
example. Right? You can go into an ad and say, ``Oh, that's
sexually inappropriate.'' Right? Or, ``It's not for me.''
The thing about this is, until the information is
transparent, and I would strongly encourage that that includes
identity-based youth, because if it turns out that the overall
number is 10 percent, but that 90 percent, 80 percent of youth
that experience these things is because of an identity issue,
the data is there to be had if the company makes it a priority
and collects it. And that is at the heart of why I am here
today.
Senator Butler. Thank you so much, Mr. Bejar, again, for
your leadership and advocacy on behalf of America's children.
Mr. Chair.
Chair Blumenthal. Thanks, Senator Butler.
A number of our colleagues may be joining us, returning in
the next few minutes. But why don't we begin a second round of
questions now. Speaking of which, Senator Coons is arriving,
and I can give you a couple of minutes to get comfortable, or
you can begin right now.
[Voice heard off microphone.]
Chair Blumenthal. Senator Coons.
Senator Coons. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, Ranking
Member, for convening this important and timely hearing. And
Mr. Bejar Arturo, thank you so much for taking of your own
personal experience as the senior engineer responsible for the
Well-being section within this unbelievable platform.
Quick survey suggests that something like two-thirds of all
American teens are currently on Meta's platforms, in particular
Instagram.
I am very concerned about the likely impact on our children
and our future. And I wanted to make sure that I had a chance
to question you for just a few moments about a possible path
forward.
As you testified to this Committee today, your own research
was hidden, was ignored, was marginalized by the very team that
had recruited you to return to a leadership role at Meta.
Your testimony highlights the dangerous lack of
transparency at social media companies, the dangerous
consequences of this ongoing global experiment with our
children, and documents ways in which they are on the receiving
end of both images that make them feel worse about themselves,
and unwanted sexual advances.
Our own U.S. Surgeon General has issued a clarion call for
Congress to act, to recognize we are experiencing a crisis in
mental health, in particular amongst our children, and to find
ways to restrain these platforms and their impact.
A bipartisan bill--I suspect Senator Klobuchar, or Senator
Blumenthal may have referred to before--called the Platform
Accountability and Transparency Act, that's co-sponsored by
Senator Cornyn, and Senator Cassidy, and Senator Graham, would
make critical advances in transparency and require platforms to
disclose some of the public safety information that they
currently hide.
Can you give just two or three examples of the kinds of
data and the kinds of insights into algorithms and how they
work, that would be critical for our public to know, and that
companies like Meta refuse to report?
And do you expect that companies will ever voluntarily
fully disclose what it is about their algorithms that make
these platforms addictive or even dangerous for our children?
Mr. Bejar. Apologies. Thank you for the question. I think
that for as long as these companies get to make up their own
definitions of what is harmful, of what is, for example,
addiction--I looked into that issue when I was in the company
asking around about the understanding of it.
And what I found is that it was an internal term called
problematic usage. And the definition of that was so narrow,
right, that--does it really capture what we as parents all see?
And so I think without transparency of the harms that teens
are experiencing by their own word, right, without instruments
that help us understand the role that social media plays in
their lives, and without ensuring that, for example, there's
something that when they need help, actually helps them, this
was something that we proposed saying, let's measure our help
by whether it helped--and that was not adopted.
And so I think that without these things, I don't think
anything is going to change, and that's why I'm here today.
Senator Coons. Could you explain for us how empowering
independent researchers would provide a much more balanced
understanding of how safe or dangerous social media platforms
really are, and say something about what kinds of safety
research could be done in order to facilitate a better mental
health and better safety outcomes for our teenagers?
Mr. Bejar. I can speak well to that because that's what I
did and my team did for 6 years. Right?
Ten years ago, we brought in experts from different
universities in the United States, including Yale, who
understood that, for example, a 13-year-old is more liable to
take risks, right, because of where they are developmentally,
and they knew that it was important that the most important
thing that you can do for a child that's having a distressing
experience, is to make sure that they feel supported at that
moment.
Us as product engineers and designers are not qualified to
give teens tools, and that's why independent research and the
data that enables that is absolutely necessary to help our
understanding of what people are experiencing online.
Senator Coons. Thank you. My colleague, Senator Hawley said
earlier that Instagram's algorithm doesn't just promote, but
accelerates the connections between pedophiles and our kids.
For anyone who is a caring and concerned parent, for anyone who
cares about our community, that should be a chilling sentence.
And the fact that you dedicated years to conducting
research on safety, and did everything you could to get it to
the attention of the leadership of the company, and are only
here before us as a last gasp attempt, should motivate all of
us to advance legislation that will unlink what I think is a
corrosive, harmful, malign connection between algorithms, and
self-harm, and assaults on our children. Thank you for your
testimony today.
Chair Blumenthal. Thanks, Senator Coons.
We're going to have a second round of questions limited in
length I want to assure you, but thank you for your patience
and your perseverance here today.
Let me just begin by saying that the lawsuit filed by the
Commonwealth of Massachusetts yesterday, which is one of nine
individual lawsuits filed around the country by States, and it
is complimentary to the Federal lawsuit filed by 33 States in
District Court, Connecticut, joined that lawsuit--I'm going to
ask that the complaint be made part of the record, without
objection--says that 90 percent of young people in the United
States--90 percent of young people use Instagram.
[The information appears as a submission for the record.]
Chair Blumenthal. So we're talking about millions of young
people. Are we not?
Mr. Bejar. Yes, we are.
Chair Blumenthal. And it cites Mark Zuckerberg saying in
October 2021, in response to Frances Haugen's whistleblower
testimony before our Committee, quote, ``At the heart of these
accusations, is this idea that we prioritize profit over safety
and well-being. That's just not true.'' He said further, ``It
is very important to me that everything we build is safe and
good for kids,'' end quote.
Taking your admonition that actions speak louder than
words, his actions certainly demonstrate the falsehood of those
claims. Do they not?
Mr. Bejar. They do. And if I have a moment, there's
something from that same note that I would like to bring to the
Committee's attention.
Chair Blumenthal. Sure.
Mr. Bejar [holds up document]. In the same note, Mark
Zuckerberg wrote, ``But when it comes to young people's health
or well-being, every negative experience matters. It is
incredibly sad to think of a young person in a moment of
distress who instead of being comforted, has their experience
made worse.'' And I believe that is what Instagram does today.
Chair Blumenthal. The reference was made earlier to the
policies of Facebook and social media in general being data
driven. In fact, they are dollar driven. Correct?
Mr. Bejar. My experiences of extensive data driven
culture----
Chair Blumenthal. Or in this case Facebook and Meta
doctored the data to drive the dollars.
Mr. Bejar. In my experience, what happened is this data
that should be public, right, they shouldn't need to be here to
talk about it, should be public about harm.
Chair Blumenthal. You know, I was struck in the memo that
you wrote to Adam Mosseri dated October 14th, it's now part of
the record, you made the point, first of all--and I'm quoting,
``Everyone in the industry has the same problems right now.''
Mr. Bejar. Correct.
Chair Blumenthal. You made that point to Mr. Mosseri and,
in effect, urged Meta to be a leader--Instagram and Facebook
could be a leader. And you said, quote, ``There is a great
product opportunity in figuring out the features that make a
community feel safe and supportive,'' end quote. ``A great
product opportunity''--in effect, you were inviting them to
design a better product that consumers would prefer because it
was safer. Correct?
Mr. Bejar. Correct.
Chair Blumenthal. And the history of capitalism--I don't
want to be too philosophical here, is that consumers go to
products that are more efficient, more effective, but also
safer. As in safer cars, safer ovens, safer washing machines,
safer everything. And you were appealing to the better
instincts of Mosseri and Zuckerberg and the whole team.
Correct?
Mr. Bejar. That is correct. I mean, Instagram is a product.
Right? Like ice cream, or a toy, or a car.
I ask you, right, how many kids need to get sick from a
batch of ice cream, or be hurt by a car, before there's all
manners of investigations? And there was an opportunity because
they're standing right next to the teen.
They're the company that's delivering the unwanted sexual
advance. They're the company that's delivering the content that
is upsetting to them, and they're standing right there. And
they should be able--like there's the opportunity for them to
be told, ``Hey, there's something really awful happening here.
Will you help me? '' And be like, ``Yes I can.'' Right? And
then use that to make the community be one that's safer.
Chair Blumenthal. Right. And the Kids Online Safety Act is
also about the product. It's about product design.
If you have consumers, give them some choices about what
they want to see and hear, so as to be able to disconnect the
algorithms that drive something people don't want to see or
hear. It's not censorship, it's not content blocking. Do you
favor that approach to protecting young people and others on
the internet?
Mr. Bejar. Completely. In a world where, as in the third
paragraph on my email to Mark, and in my experience from 10
years earlier--that's 5 years of looking at this--where 90
percent of the content that teens experience as harassment,
right, it might not be discernible for policies. The only way
to address this is through the kind of measures that you're
describing. It's a product. It needs to be different. It has to
change.
Chair Blumenthal. And the Kids Online Safety Act is also
about holding social media and Big Tech accountable when they
harm people. Right now, as you've heard, they feel no sense of
accountability in terms that really affect their bottom line,
when Mark Zuckerberg gives his quarterly report or his
discussion to analysts. Would you favor that kind of
accountability so that they are held responsible?
Mr. Bejar. Absolutely. I was, again, within the Well-Being
Team, which I want to take a moment to say that in my
experience, the Integrity and Well-being professionals, which
are working on these issues firsthand, are incredibly good
people with wonderful ideas and management couldn't be letting
them down more. But----
Chair Blumenthal. And----
Mr. Bejar. Sorry.
Chair Blumenthal. Go ahead, sorry.
Mr. Bejar. All I was going to say, during that time, one of
the issues that it's in one of the materials, is we talk about
a kind of content that we know is bad for body image issues. It
has a name, the inspiration, it's being recommended. They know
it is being recommended. They know teens are spending a
meaningful time looking at it, and they were unwilling as a
product to address that. So without being to held to account
for what they're recommending, I can't imagine that ever
changing.
Chair Blumenthal. And another part of our Kids Online
Safety Act provides for more transparency about the algorithm
so that there can be more public knowledge and also expert
knowledge. Would you favor that approach?
Mr. Bejar. Yes. I believe transparency is essential. And I
will say that algorithms are as good as their inputs and can be
measured by their outputs. So you can take an algorithm and if
the algorithm doesn't know that a kid experiences something as
obscene, then why won't it recommend it? And if you look at
what it's recommending, if it's recommending obscene things
that should be held to account, then the only way there is with
transparency about these aspects.
Chair Blumenthal. And before I go to Senator Hawley for his
second round of questions, you know, you mentioned that the
people who worked on your team, the people who work in these
companies--to quote you, are generally good people who want to
do the right thing.
And I noticed in your memo to Mr. Mosseri, you said, and
I'm quoting, ``A point, which might be good for you to know,
which I did not put in the document reviewed by the team, is
that many employees I've spoken to who are doing this work and
are of different levels, are distraught, are distraught about
how the last few weeks have unfolded. These people who love FB/
IG''--Facebook, Instagram, I assume--``and are heart/mission-
driven to the work.''
They were distraught by the public exhibition of Facebook's
knowing that it was profiting by toxic content driven at kids
and the company, in effect, concealing and hiding the truth,
rejecting recommendation for improvement, and rolling back
safety measures. Correct?
Mr. Bejar. Correct. They were distraught. They were afraid
that because the company was externally disavowing, like, body
image issues, while at the same time there were studies and
data that were saying otherwise, features getting proposed that
were saying otherwise.
They were afraid that the work would be stopped, that they
wouldn't get the support they needed, or they wouldn't be able
to build what they needed to build. And I say that the amount
of investment that this company ought to do for those people,
should be commensurate to that table of harms that you now
have.
Chair Blumenthal. Thank you. Senator Hawley.
Senator Hawley. Thank you, again, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Bejar, thank you for being here and thank you, you have
been extraordinarily patient, but also incredibly forthcoming
in your responses. And it's just been tremendously helpful. So
thank you so much.
I just want to come back to something that you said over
and over, because you've been asked about it over and over to
quote you in response to an earlier question. You said that,
``Changes to the product''-- and you were just explaining that
Instagram is a product like ice cream or opioids maybe--
``Changes to the product would be most helpful, but there is no
incentive.''
And by no incentive, I mean, that really just means there's
no money in it for the company. Right? I mean, isn't that what
it gets down to at the bottom? If they could make money on it,
wouldn't they do it?
Mr. Bejar. You're going to have to ask them. I really am,
I'm very excited for the day that Mark or Adam are sitting
here.
Senator Hawley. Me too.
Mr. Bejar. And then you can ask them, ``So why did you not
invest? '' Because one of the things that is in each
recommendation you see there, ``Do you understand what data's
causing these things? '' Like, here's the button that you can
build in the systems.
Those are not a matter of significant investment. It would
not cost them as much. It is a matter of how much they
prioritize the work, and whether they're willing to set their
goals based on what teens are experiencing.
Senator Hawley. I think that's very well said. And, you
know, I would just add this, you commented earlier that it
would be great to hear Mark Zuckerberg say, you know, ``We made
$34 billion this quarter.'' That was a hypothetical you threw
out. And then here also have to report, ``Here's the amount of
harm that teenagers suffered.''
I'd tell you what else I'd love to hear him say: ``We made
$34 billion this quarter, and we have $34 billion in jury
judgments pending against us.'' That would get their attention.
And I just have to say, at the end of the day, if you want
to incentivize changes to these companies, you have got to
allow people to sue them. You've got to open up the courtroom
doors.
The FTC fined Facebook, what was it? A billion dollars or
something a couple of years ago. It made no discernible
difference to their business practices. None. They changed
nothing. They don't care.
But I tell you what they fear, they fear parents going into
court and holding them accountable. That's the hammer. That's
what happened with Big Tobacco. That's what happened with
opioids. That's the hammer. And that's what we have got to do.
And so I'll just say this, you know, we talked about the
bills that were passed by this Committee. One of them is
Senator Durbin's bill along with me, it's our bill together on
child sexual exploitation, abuse material, CSAM exploitative
material. And for my money, the best part about that bill is it
contains a private right of action.
So I'll just say this, it's November, I think the 7th
today, is that right? I'll make you a pledge. We're going to
vote before the end of the year.
Before the end of this calendar year, I will go to the
floor of the United States Senate and I will demand a vote on
the bills that we have passed in this Committee.
And we'll just find out. We're going to put people on
record because I'm tired of waiting.
I've waited 4 years. Many folks on this Committee have
waited far longer. So we're going to vote. Any Senator can go
to the floor and call up a piece of legislation and ask for a
vote on it. And I'm going to do it. Before the end of this
year, I'm going to do it.
So we're going to find out. We have all this talk about,
oh, we love it, we need to do stuff. Okay, fine, let's do
something.
And the other thing I'll just say is on the money. The
money that is flowing into this Capitol from Big Tech is
obscene. It's totally obscene. And if we really wanted to
change something, we'd get the corporate money out of politics.
We would stop these mega corporations from making political
contributions. That would change things.
But either way, we're going to vote before the end of 2023,
and we'll just put people on record and we'll see where we go
from there.
Mr. Bejar, thank you. I hope your testimony today will
really motivate people. I know it will motivate parents. I
think every parent listening to this will say, ``You know what,
that's been my experience, too.''
And I think to have someone who is an engineer as you are,
has your level of expertise, and been inside the company, I
think so often parents feel isolated and they feel like,
``Maybe I just don't understand this technology. Maybe I'm the
only one.'' And I just say, listening to you today, I think
parents are going to say, ``I'm not the only one. My kid is not
the only one.'' Yes, go ahead.
Mr. Bejar. If I may say something about that. Parents know
they see this every day. And the other thing that it's been my
experience in all my years doing this, is that parents know how
to parent.
And sometimes when I've had a parent of a child that's been
groomed and come and talk to me about it, about their
experience, they're like, ``Well, I don't understand this
technology.'' The best way I've experienced of people to think
about these things, is just take social media out of the
conversation.
Like, as a parent of a young kid, you know who your kids
are spending time with. You keep an eye out on that. Right?
This--you get a sense of that. You want to make it very safe
for your kid to come up to you and say, ``Hey dad, like there's
this thing that's happening.'' That's what happened with me at
home. And you want to make it safe for a kid to bring up an
issue to you.
And then when you see that these things are happening on
these devices, right, if these things were happening at a
school and you knew that like one in five kids were witnessing
or one in 10 were experiencing about the unwanted sexual
advances, and the kid turns to somebody in the school, right,
for help, and they're like, ``Oh, I'm sorry. I cannot help you
with that.'' As a parent, what would you do? Right? You would
hold the school's administration into account. And that's one
of the reasons that I am here today.
Chair Blumenthal. Thanks, Senator Hawley.
I would just, again, make the point that the Kids Online
Safety bill imposes accountability. And I want to join the
pledge to seek a vote before the end of the year. I'm very
hopeful we'll have not only a vote, but an overwhelmingly
positive bipartisan vote in favor of the Kids Online Safety
bill.
And I challenge social media and Big Tech to come forward
and put your money where your mouth is--put your actions where
your rhetoric is, support this bill.
For years, in fact, before our Committee they have said,
``Oh, well we want regulation, but just not that regulation.''
And that has been their mantra, ``Trust us.''
No longer will kids or parents trust social media to impose
the right safeguards, and we want to give them the tools that
their products need, so that kids can take back their lives
online. Senator Blackburn.
Senator Blackburn. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And thank you,
again, for your patience today.
I wish that my colleague from Vermont was still here. It
was 2012 when he and I started on Privacy, and filed the first
Privacy bill in the House. And as Senator Welch was saying,
we've been at this for a long time and we've been fought by Big
Tech every single step of the way--every way.
And it's been really quite amazing to see, because they
are--and sometimes people will say, how did tech companies grow
this big this fast? And they didn't have the guidelines, the
rules, and restraints that the physical world has. And it's
kind of been the Wild West. And we've seen that in how they
choose to gather data and data mine, and use that to make the
dollar--the eyeballs. They've got to keep these eyeballs on the
page. The longer they keep 'em, the more money they make.
Now I want to go back to the hearing we had with Mr.
Mosseri in December 2021. And for the record, I want us to
build out a little bit more of this framework because I think
it's important to the States that have joined the lawsuit. I
think it's important to us as we work to get the Kids Online
Safety Act passed.
Now, when you were with Facebook, you built a structure
that would allow for some online governance and you put in
place what you thought was a pretty good process for keeping
people safe online. Correct?
Mr. Bejar. That's correct.
Senator Blackburn. And basically, you had embarked on
safety by design. Is that correct?
Mr. Bejar. That is correct.
Senator Blackburn. Okay. And you were putting in place a
duty of care for the social media company to be responsive to
the users that were on those platforms.
Mr. Bejar. That is correct. And as I was going through one
of these materials, I remember talking about bullying and
teenagers and said that we as a company had the responsibility
not only to the teens within the product, but to also improve
the world's understanding of these issues so that the field
could be moved forward. And that is the spirit with which we
engaged the work.
Senator Blackburn. And then in 2013, Facebook decided they
were going to change the rules and allow kids ages 13 to 17 to
post content on Instagram. Correct?
Mr. Bejar. I don't know the exact date that change
happened.
Senator Blackburn. Okay. I think that that is accurate. And
allowing them--what do you think changed? What motivated them
to drop that age and allow 13-year-olds?
Mr. Bejar. I cannot speak to their motivation, but what I
can say is that if you look at those 2013 presentations and
2012, one of the things that is written about there, is the
fact that a 13-year-old, right, will do riskier behavior and
feels things more intensely because that's where they are
developmentally. And so making a change that potentially
increases their audience, I think would be inconsistent with
that understanding.
Senator Blackburn. I find it so interesting that whether it
was Zuckerberg, or Sandberg, or Cox, when you highlighted with
them how readers were responding to the survey--users were
responding and you kept trying to direct this toward the
experience--not the perception, but the experience. And that is
noted several times in your emails to them.
Even though 51 percent of the users may say they've had a
negative experience, they chose not to address that issue. And
in most corporations allowing issues like that to just slide
would never be tolerated. So it is left when I ask myself, why
did they do that? It has to be because they were motivated by
profit, over motivation to protect their users in the virtual
space.
I do want to ask you just a couple of things to go back on
your memo to Adam Mosseri, the October 14th email, and you laid
out an agenda and an opportunity for items for discussion so
that you would make good use of your time. And you explicitly
and specifically went through the numbers on kids that had
received different negative interactions. And then you broke
out the data by age, and you created a chart so that he could
look at it in a Google doc.
Mr. Bejar. Correct.
Senator Blackburn. How did he respond when you broke it out
by age? Or did he take the time to look at it?
Mr. Bejar. It is my experience of all the years in Meta,
that an executive gets that email, reads it thoroughly, looks
at all of the attachments. And so it would be my expectation
that he had read it.
Senator Blackburn. Okay.
Mr. Bejar. My conversation with him, he demonstrated
understanding of everything I spoke about, and we specifically
talked about the button for a teen girl who received unwanted
advances.
Senator Blackburn. Okay. Thank you for that. I think that
what troubles me is knowing that harm was being done to kids
and then to tell us, and I quoted back to you some of his
comments from his testimony that he gave to us, and for him to
allude to the fact--to give the impression that they've built
tools that prevent these adverse activities.
But then, you know, it's that old thing of the truth, the
whole truth, and nothing but the truth. It was true. They had
built tools. You built them. That was true.
But they chose to remove that. And in doing that, there are
hundreds of children that we have met with their parents and we
have heard about the suicides, the attempted suicides, and the
adverse impact on these children. Thank you.
Chair Blumenthal. Thanks, Senator Blackburn. Thank you so
much for being here today.
As you can tell from the turnout, there is very strong
bipartisan support for reform because actions do speak louder
than words.
And my hope is that colleagues will join Senator Hawley,
and me, and Senator Blackburn, and Senator Durbin, and others
in seeking action on a very doable, practical, politically
achievable bill that targets the design of this product, much
as we would a safer car, or stopping addiction to cigarettes
and tobacco and nicotine.
Big Tech is very much in danger. I would say it is the next
Big Tobacco, and I'm hoping that it will join in this effort to
make its product safer.
In some ways, what we face here is a garden variety
challenge to improve the reliability and safety of a product
that uses a black box that very few people understand, which
makes it more complex and mysterious, but no less urgent and
ultimately understandable by everyday Americans.
Everyday Americans understand the harm that's being done.
We have seen and heard it from moms and dads, from teenagers
who have come to us and pleaded, absolutely implored us to act
now--not at some distant point in the future.
And so by the end of the year, I'm very hopeful that we
will have a vote, and that it will be an overwhelmingly
bipartisan vote, in part thanks to the testimony that you have
offered today.
It has been tremendously impactful and moving and very
powerful in its science-based persuasion. You're an engineer,
as you have stated, you're not a lawyer, but ultimately
engineering is what may save Facebook from the perils and
dangers that it's creating along with other social media. It's
not alone.
And my hope is that we will move forward so that, in
effect, we can make Big Tech the next Big Tobacco in terms of a
concerted effort to reduce its harm and inform the public about
how they can do it, as well.
So thank you for your testimony today and this hearing will
be adjourned now, but the record will remain open for a week in
case colleagues have any questions they want to submit in
writing.
And in the meantime, again, my thanks to you for your very
impactful and important testimony today.
The meeting is adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 12:11 p.m., the hearing was adjourned.]
[Additional material submitted for the record follows.]
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
A P P E N D I X
The following submissions are available at:
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CHRG-118shrg60432/pdf/CHRG-
118shrg
60432-add1.pdf
Submitted by Chair Blumenthal:
Bejar, Arturo, email to Mark Zuckerberg, et al., October 5, 2021. 2
Bejar, Arturo, attachment to email to Mark Zuckerberg, et al.,
October 5, 2021............................................... 4
Bejar, Arturo, email to Adam Mosseri, October 14, 2021, source:
The Wall Street Journal....................................... 5
Commonwealth of Massachusetts v. Meta Platforms, Inc. and
Instagram, LLC, November 6, 2021.............................. 7
[all]