[Senate Hearing 118-657]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]


                                                        S. Hrg. 118-657

                 POTENTIAL BUDGETARY EFFICIENCIES ACHIEVED 
                    THROUGH IMPROVEMENT TO MANAGEMENT 
                    AND PLANNING PROCESSES WITHIN DEPART-
                    MENT OF DEFENSE PERSONNEL PROGRAMS

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

                            SUBCOMMITTEE ON
                               PERSONNEL

                                 OF THE

                      COMMITTEE ON ARMED SERVICES
                          UNITED STATES SENATE

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                             FIRST SESSION

                               __________

                             JULY 26, 2023

                               __________

         Printed for the use of the Committee on Armed Services
         
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                 Available via: http://www.govinfo.gov

                                __________

                   U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE                    
60-411 PDF                  WASHINGTON : 2025                  
          
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                      COMMITTEE ON ARMED SERVICES

                  JACK REED, Rhode Island, Chairman	
	
JEANNE SHAHEEN, New Hampshire		ROGER F. WICKER, Mississippi
KIRSTEN E. GILLIBRAND, New York		DEB FISCHER, Nebraska
RICHARD BLUMENTHAL, Connecticut		TOM COTTON, Arkansas
MAZIE K. HIRONO, Hawaii			MIKE ROUNDS, South Dakota
TIM KAINE, Virginia			JONI ERNST, Iowa
ANGUS S. KING, Jr., Maine		DAN SULLIVAN, Alaska
ELIZABETH WARREN, Massachusetts		KEVIN CRAMER, North Dakota
GARY C. PETERS, Michigan		RICK SCOTT, Florida
JOE MANCHIN III, West Virginia		TOMMY TUBERVILLE, Alabama
TAMMY DUCKWORTH, Illinois		MARKWAYNE MULLIN, Oklahoma
JACKY ROSEN, Nevada			TED BUDD, North Carolina
MARK KELLY, Arizona                  	ERIC SCHMITT, Missouri                                    
                                  
                                     
		    Elizabeth L. King, Staff Director
  		John P. Keast, Minority Staff Director
_________________________________________________________________

                       Subcommittee on Personnel

 ELIZABETH WARREN, Massachusetts, 
             Chairman
RICHARD BLUMENTHAL, Connecticut		RICK SCOTT, Florida
MAZIE K. HIRONO, Hawaii			MIKE ROUNDS, South Dakota
TIM KAINE, Virginia			DAN SULLIVAN, Alaska
TAMMY DUCKWORTH, Illinois            	TED BUDD, North Carolina

                                  (ii)


                         C O N T E N T S

_________________________________________________________________

                             July 26, 2024

                                                                   Page

Potential Budgetary Efficiencies Achieved Through Improvement to      1
  Management and Planning Processes Within Department of Defense 
  Personnel Programs.

                           Members Statements

Statement of Senator Elizabeth Warren............................     1

Statement of Senator Rick Scott..................................     4

                           Witness Statements

Mosher, David E., Assistant Director for National Security,           7
  Congressional Budget Office.

Roark, Michael J., Deputy Inspector General, Evaluations             15
  Component, Department of Defense, Office of Inspector General.

Field, Elizabeth, Director, Defense Capabilities and Management,     20
  Government Accountability Office.

Questions for the Record.........................................    57

                                 (iii)

 
   POTENTIAL BUDGETARY EFFICIENCIES ACHIEVED THROUGH IMPROVEMENT TO 
    MANAGEMENT AND PLANNING PROCESSES WITHIN DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE 
                           PERSONNEL PROGRAMS

                              ----------                              


                        WEDNESDAY, JULY 26, 2023

                      United States Senate,
                         Subcommittee on Personnel,
                               Committee on Armed Services,
                                                    Washington, DC.
    The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 4:03 p.m., in 
room 106, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Senator Elizabeth 
Warren (Chairman of the Subcommittee) presiding.
    Subcommittee Members present: Senators Warren, Blumenthal, 
Kaine, Scott, and Budd.

         OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR ELIZABETH WARREN

    Senator Warren. This hearing will come to order. Good 
afternoon. I want to welcome our witnesses for today's 
Personnel Subcommittee hearing, and I want to offer a very 
special thank you to Ranking Member Scott for helping on this 
Committee and doing it on rather short notice.
    Also, for our other Members for joining us as we examine 
opportunities to save money at the Pentagon. Members of 
Congress, and this Committee in particular, have a 
responsibility to root out waste and price gouging in Pentagon 
spending.
    We owe it to the men and women of the military who rely on 
us to fund the equipment activities they need to defend us, and 
we owe it to the taxpayers who foot the bill. I don't think it 
will be a surprise to anybody when I tell you, we have a lot of 
work to do on this front. This year, the Department of Defense 
requested $842 billion in funding.
    Just last month, negotiators had barely agreed as part of 
the bipartisan deal to lift the Nation and avoid default on the 
Nation's debt, to limit this year's Department funding to only 
100 percent of the amount that the Department actually 
requested in the budget. While the defense industry howled that 
$842 billion was simply not enough.
    Now, some of my colleagues have already pledged that by the 
end of the year they will pass a supplemental budget to give 
the Department of Defense more money and are currently drawing 
up plans for billions more in spending. If another huge 
supplemental is approved by Congress, the total could be the 
largest Pentagon budget since World War II.
    I support funding our military so that it can do its job to 
keep Americans safe. I support making sure that servicemembers 
have the pay and benefits they deserve and the high quality 
equipment they need to do their work safely.
    I support adequate resources for the whole Department of 
Defense to operate without cutting corners. I support ensuring 
that Ukraine has the support it needs from the United States to 
resist Russia's illegal war.
    But reports from Pentagon watchdogs and budget experts, 
both inside and outside Government, have repeatedly shown that 
there are serious problems at the Department of Defense (DOD) 
with wasting taxpayer dollars.
    Reports from the Government Accountability Office (GAO), 
the Department of Defense Inspector General, the Special 
Inspector General for Afghanistan Reconstruction, the 
Congressional Budget Office (CBO), the Cost Assessment and 
Program Evaluation Office, I have now run out of fingers, and 
the Pentagon's own auditors have all identified billions and 
billions and billions of dollars that do nothing more than line 
the pockets of giant defense contractors, often with little or 
no oversight from the Pentagon.
    When the Department of Defense comes to Congress to ask for 
more money, we should be asking why they aren't putting in 
place a few basic oversight tools to stop defense industry 
price gouging.
    Before DOD gets another dollar, they need to put checks in 
place to stop paying $1,500 for a medical device that can be 
purchased at Wal-Mart for $192, and just stop paying $1,800 for 
vaccines that everyone else pays $125 for. Pentagon officials 
themselves estimate that savings just from tightening up our 
practices in hiring contractors, just that one area alone, 
would be about $44 billion over 10 years.
    Before we provide more money to the Pentagon, DOD needs to 
explain to the American people why it is failing to implement 
basic safeguards regularly employed by both families and 
businesses. This hearing will focus on a few of the key 
findings from budget experts. I appreciate their willingness to 
appear as witnesses.
    They have identified cost savings across the Pentagon's 
work. But because this is the Personnel Subcommittee, we are 
going to focus today on issues of waste related to how DOD buys 
personnel related goods and services.
    I will note as a measure of how little congressional 
oversight there has been, and how determined Senator Scott and 
I are to reel this back in, that this is only the second time 
in the last 15 years that the Inspector General (IG) has been 
invited to testify before this Committee. Before turning to our 
witnesses, let me briefly highlight two key problems in this 
Subcommittee's jurisdiction that clearly require congressional 
oversight.
    First, DOD fails to prevent price gouging by private 
defense contractors, period. There is no real dispute about 
this. One report after another from independent Inspector 
General has documented that DOD contracting officers agree to 
pay excessive prices without asking companies for 
justifications and that companies delayed or refused to provide 
cost data when requested.
    Without that pushback, the U.S. taxpayer is just a sitting 
duck for defense industry price gouging. By now, most people 
know that over-the-top price gouging occurs on spare parts and 
weapons systems. Earlier this year, I called out Boeing for its 
failure to provide basic cost data for almost 11,000 items.
    In other examples where that price data has been made 
public, we learned that Boeing charged the Army $71, $71 for a 
pin that should have cost $0.04. In another case, they charged 
nearly $1,700 for a ramp gate roller assembly that DOD could 
have purchased for $8--$1,700 for $8 item.
    A recent investigation by 60 Minutes found that even after 
adjusting for inflation, we are paying seven times more for 
each missile we send to Ukraine than we paid in the 1990's. But 
price gouging isn't limited to spare parts and weapons systems. 
It also happens when DOD is paying for health care.
    This week I wrote a letter to the Defense Health Agency 
(DHA) highlighting pricing on health care items. For example, 
DOD was paying $1,500 for breast pumps that Wal-Mart sold for 
less than $200. The agency was paying over $1,800 for vaccines 
that could be purchased for $125. Multiply that price gouging 
by the high volume of purchasing in the military, and it is 
clear that taxpayers are getting seriously ripped off.
    Another way that taxpayers get gouged is through its 
contractor workforce. Our Nation's defense is often supported 
through contractors who feed our troops, house our military 
families, transport needed equipment, and perform a ride range 
of tasks that in past years were either done by Active Duty 
military or by civilian employees.
    Over the past quarter century, DOD spending on service 
contracts has more than doubled, reaching over $205 billion in 
fiscal year 2022. This has created a huge industry of military 
contractors, turning them into billion dollar businesses. But 
in many cases, hiring a contractor cost more than simply paying 
a Federal employee to perform exactly the same function.
    At a minimum, DOD should be examining each contract to make 
certain the prices are reasonable and that the work cannot be 
done directly by Federal employees for a whole lot less money. 
But that is not what is happening. Instead of carefully 
reviewing each Government contract, the GAO has determined that 
DOD does not even know how many contractors it has and does not 
effectively analyze long term costs.
    DOD has failed to safeguard taxpayer money, and it has 
opened the door to price gouging by Government contractors. It 
is DOD's job to stop these rip offs. As I noted earlier, this 
hearing will focus on cost savings and the jurisdiction of this 
Subcommittee. We will also primarily focus today on places 
where DOD can use authorities it already has.
    But let me be crystal clear, if the Pentagon wants more 
funding this year, above 100 percent of their budget request 
that has already been fulfilled by Congress, then Congress 
should at a minimum give DOD more access to cost and pricing 
data from contractors, tie any increases in upfront payments to 
contractors to requirements that they deliver goods and 
services on time, remove a requirement in current law that 
military services must send Congress pricey wish lists for 
extra spending on top of their annual budget requests, require 
contractors to disclose changes in average prices and gross 
margins, and require any DOD component that fails to pass an 
audit to return 1 percent of its budget back to Treasury.
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    For many of these proposals, bipartisan legislation already 
exists to make these changes. If other Senators want to dump 
more money into the Department of Defense on top of fully 
funding the budget they already have, then they should also 
support including these commonsense measures to fight back 
against price gouging.
    So, I am pleased that we are here to talk about this, and I 
call on Ranking Member Scott for an opening statement.

                STATEMENT OF SENATOR RICK SCOTT

    Senator Scott. First off, thanks for being here. I want to 
thank Chairwoman Warren for doing this. You know, I am a 
business guy, so you have to invest to get what you want done, 
but you sure as heck don't want to waste any money. The easiest 
way to spend money on something is through savings. It is a lot 
easier than have to come up with new capital or borrow more 
money, whatever you are doing.
    I want to thank Chairwoman Warren for doing this, and we 
have talked about doing another hearing in, I think, September, 
we want to hear from other Members if they have anything they 
want to talk about. But there has to be a hell of life savings 
here, right?
    The Department Defense is the Nation's largest employer. 
Over 2 million people serve in our military in either an Active 
or Reserve capacity. We have another 824,000 people who work as 
DOD civilian employees. An additional 800,000 people support 
the DOD through contract mechanism. That is a lot of people.
    Between military personnel, civilian employees, contracted 
labor, nearly 50 percent of the total defense budget is spent 
on the DOD workforce, which in fiscal year 2023 equates to more 
than $400 billion.
    They are Americans. It is not just money in numbers.
    They are serving our country, and I think every one of them 
probably feels like they have a good, important mission to get 
done. Each one of them is the reason why the work of this 
Subcommittee is so important. There has been plenty of talk in 
Washington that have excused the waste and inefficiencies of 
the Department of Defense, saying, oh gosh, it is a big place. 
I don't know if you can really do this there.
    I think most of us think that is pretty ridiculous. We all 
have to do it in our homes. We have to do it in our businesses. 
Our families are doing it every day, especially at a time where 
we are seeing ridiculous inflation. So, I think that we can 
figure this out, and there are ways to save a lot of money. I 
used to be in business at one time. I ran the seventh biggest 
U.S. employer. We had to do it every day.
    We had to keep coming up with efficiencies. None of our 
customers says, ``I want to give you more money.'' None of our 
shareholders said, ``we would like you to give us less of a 
return.'' So, we had to constantly come up with this. As a 
matter of fact, in some of the manufacturing companies I had, 
by contract, by written contract, every year I had to cut 2 
percent of my price--my cost, by contract.
    Every year I was required to get 2 percent productivity 
gains or make less money, and nobody wanted to get paid less, 
nobody wants to make less. You just had to do it. It is all 
doable.
    I just want to thank you guys for what you do. I have only 
been up here 4\1/2\ years, but I think every one of your 
agencies actually is a real help to what we do in our jobs.
    The report you put out, the information you put out is 
actually very helpful to me. I think the DOD is in desperate 
need of real, thorough, and consistent audits. I can't imagine 
not doing an audit, a thorough audit. In the private sector, 
when you have an audit and there is anything in the audit that 
says ``we need to fix it,'' you have to fix it, you have to fix 
it.
    Your shareholders are going to hold you accountable, and 
you are not going to keep your job if you don't go through that 
audit and try to eliminate as many, if not all of the problems 
before the next audit, not in 5 years. The next audit, you had 
to try to get anything that was in there, and you had to get a 
clean audit, or if you are the CEO, you would not have a job.
    I think we have got to make sure that--this is a lot of 
money. We want to have a lethal military. We want to support 
our military. But it has got to be done where we don't waste 
any dollars.
    This is not about cutting spending. It is about spending 
money efficiently and making sure that whatever we spend, it 
means we are going to take care of our servicemembers and we 
are going to have the most lethal force possible, so hopefully 
nobody ever wants to do anything against us.
    I don't think it's a hard concept. I think we all do it 
every day in our life. The more efficiencies we can find--
either we can save money for the taxpayers of this country, or 
we can make bigger investments to make sure we have a better 
military. I don't think any of us want to slow down our 
investments in defense, but also understand that we shouldn't 
be doing things that we don't get a return on.
    We ought to be hell bent on getting that done. We also have 
to understand that it is getting harder and harder to recruit 
in the military, so everybody there is more and more important. 
If you look at it, just like in companies, we are spending more 
dollars training people now than at any time. When my dad went 
in, he was an ace in the Airborne.
    They just sent him to the front lines. I don't know how 
much training he got. I got a little bit, and then swabbed the 
decks, cleaned the latrines a lot. Today, I think they are 
getting a lot more training than when I got when I was in. In a 
perfect world, our servicemembers would be used exclusively for 
military-specific tasks.
    But some jobs need to be done, and the uniformed 
servicemember is the only person available to do it. But I 
agree with Chairman Warren, we use a lot of civilians, and it 
just can't cost as much money.
    You come up here and you see how many companies have just 
been created by provide services to sometimes it is our Federal 
Government, sometimes it is just our military. The margins on 
this stuff, I mean, we didn't make margins in the business I 
was in that were like this.
    We have got to make it easier for our servicemembers abroad 
to find fulfilling work for their supporting spouses. I was 
just traveling, and we had one individual that was telling me 
that she had a very well-trained husband and couldn't get a job 
where they were.
    There is some crazy rule that was preventing--when I was 
Governor of Florida, we tried to, and I am sure Senator Kaine 
did the same thing, you are trying to make your State the most 
military friendly State, and so you figure out how do you wave 
everything you can so all the spouses can get a job because it 
has a big impact on these, the ones that serve there, but also 
their livelihood every day. We can't pay exorbitant salaries 
for our military.
    A lot of their spouses have to make a decent income to 
survive. I recently heard--so this was just about the spouse, I 
guess there is--with some of the individuals overseas, they 
apply through USA Jobs. It is difficult that they can't get 
jobs overseas to do telework in the United States. Some of the 
stuff just doesn't make any sense.
    We got to make this all easier. I think we have got to do a 
review of all of our laws governing Federal civil service. We 
want to make sure that it works like the private sector. You 
want to be able to hire people when you want to hire them as 
quickly as you can, but you want to be able to hold people 
accountable.
    If you can't hold people accountable, then unfortunately 
you end up with the bad actors, not with the best employees. No 
one wins in that situation. I think both Republicans and 
Democrats have proposed things over--just even since I have 
been up here, to try to make that better, but often there is 
some special interest to try to prevent that. Hopefully we can 
go through all these things.
    I think this is going to be a good hearing, but I think 
there is more to be done to try to find efficiencies and force 
these efficiencies so we can make sure we make good 
investments. Thanks for being here. Thanks for what you do 
because your reports are really good.
    Senator Warren. Thank you very much. Terrific opening 
statement. I also want to say thank you to our witnesses for 
appearing and thank you for your work. We are going to have one 
panel today that is composed of Government watchdogs and budget 
experts.
    Mr. David Mosher, the Assistant Director for National 
Security for the Congressional Budget Office, is with us. Mr. 
Michael Roark, who is Deputy Inspector General for the 
Evaluations Component of the Department of Defense Inspector 
General, and Ms. Elizabeth Field, the Director for Defense 
capabilities and Management at the Government Accountability 
Office. Thank you all again for appearing today.
    Mr. Mosher, you are recognized for 5 minutes for an opening 
statement.

 STATEMENT OF DAVID E. MOSHER, ASSISTANT DIRECTOR FOR NATIONAL 
             SECURITY, CONGRESSIONAL BUDGET OFFICE

    Mr. Mosher. Thank you very much, Senator. Thank you, 
Senator Scott and the committee for inviting me to come 
testify. I appreciate the opportunity to talk a little bit 
about reducing DOD's compensation costs.
    The size of DOD's compensation budget actually is not very 
well defined. I know we have a nice pie chart there, and the 
challenge is like, what is that $205 billion number? It is not 
well-defined.
    It is better defined on the military side and on the 
civilian compensation side, but definitely in the biggest hole 
and is the biggest uncertainty is service contractor workforce, 
and that is because DOD really collects and publishes very 
incomplete data about that workforce. DOD's total workforce 
consists of three types of labor, military personnel, both full 
time and part time, Federal civilians, as well as service 
contractors.
    DOD refers to this is their total force. It is something 
you try to manage and balance and get the right capabilities to 
the right needs. Compensation for the three types of labor is 
largely found in the military personnel account, as well as the 
operations and maintenance (O&M) account, although there is 
some--operation and maintenance--although there is some in the 
research and development (R&D) account as well.
    I am focusing on service contract labor, and just to be 
clear here, these are contractors who are personnel who are 
hired by private companies under service contracts awarded 
expressly to augment civilian and military personnel within 
DOD. Service contractors provide a wide range of activities.
    As you alluded to, Senator Warren, you can't go to a 
military base without running into a large number of service 
contractors doing very important functions. So just to be 
clear, though, I am not talking about people who are hired by 
companies who produce goods and weapons that the Department 
buys. I am focusing on that other group. How big is DOD's 
workforce? We actually don't know.
    We know that DOD plans to have at the end of this year 
about 2.2 million full time personnel, 1.4 on the military side 
and about 800 million on the civilian side. But there is no 
centralized accounting for the service contractors, and 
estimates range widely from sort of 250,000 was the number that 
the Congressional Research Service (CRS) published a year or 
two ago, to numbers that are two to three times that amount.
    But we don't know, and on that higher end, it rivals the 
duty civilian workforce in size. What is the cost of DOD's 
workforce? Again, we don't know. We can't get all the pieces of 
it. Roughly one-third of annual--DOD's annual budget is devoted 
to compensation for military and civilian personnel working 
directly for the Department.
    That is about $279 billion in 2023. If you include service 
contractors, that number could be, as Senator Warren suggested, 
close to half of DOD's annual budget. We can't be more precise 
in--precisely because we do not get data from DOD that allows 
us to do that, in the same way that we get very good data about 
military personnel and civilians.
    DOD, for example, reports that the budget authority for 
service contracts in 2022 was about $95 billion. But Office of 
Management and Budget (OMB) data indicates this number could be 
as high as $274 billion. This is for the contract dollars, not 
necessarily the labor costs.
    I will get to that in a moment. We have looked, CBO, 
throughout the years at reports at how to reduce DOD's 
compensation costs by changing policies mostly. A good example 
of that is our options for reducing the deficit budget volume 
we reduce--we produce every 2 years. I have highlighted some of 
those in my written testimony.
    But savings from that for these kinds of policy changes 
would be roughly $1 to $3 billion for each of those a year over 
10 years, which is 1 to 2 percent of DOD's compensation budget 
for the military.
    Small changes, but those compound over time with pay 
raises, etcetera, that can grow into larger savings. We haven't 
been able to look at that for service contractors. One other 
thing I want to note and a very important piece of compensation 
for the military are veterans benefits.
    They are essential to how DOD recruits and retains staff. 
It is an important promise that we make to our servicemen and 
women. The Department of Veterans Affairs (VA's) budget 
requests this year, just for some context, was $320 billion. 
So, it is the highest it has ever been for 2024--about twice 
the size of DOD's military compensation budget. CBO's options, 
we do options looking at that, we have come up with options 
that range from about $1 billion a year on average, to more 
than $25 billion a year if you make some policy changes.
    So, what would be the value of more comprehensive data on 
service contractors? First, I think, and my colleagues from GAO 
can go into this at great length much better than I can, but it 
helps the Department manage its workforce, understand where the 
costs are and then what the important things are.
    It also provides some transparency so that if we make 
changes, DOD makes changes in personnel policy where it wants 
to, say, cut military personnel or civilians, that you don't 
see costs grow up in service contracts in a way that you can't 
anticipate. If you can't track numbers, it is hard to follow 
that, and of course, it helps with congressional oversight, 
which is a very important one.
    We have some specific suggestions about how to do that in 
our about changes we would like to see in the way DOD reports 
data to the Congress, and that would help with us in our 
analysis and understanding the service contractor workforce. 
That concludes my remarks, and I want to thank you for the 
opportunity, and welcome your questions.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Mosher follows:]
      
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    Senator Warren. Thank you very much. Thank you for being 
with us, Mr. Mosher. Mr. Roark, you are recognized for 5 
minutes.

   STATEMENT OF MICHAEL J. ROARK, DEPUTY INSPECTOR GENERAL, 
    EVALUATIONS COMPONENT, DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE, OFFICE OF 
                       INSPECTOR GENERAL

    Mr. Roark. Good afternoon, Chairman Warren, and Ranking 
Member Scott, and distinguished Members of the Subcommittee. 
Thank you for inviting me to appear before you today to discuss 
our important oversight work on Department of Defense 
healthcare.
    Today, I will discuss three reports: two reports where we 
identified that additional procedures were needed to contain 
healthcare costs, and one report that showed that the DOD 
effectively implemented procedures to control costs.
    In April 2018, we issued a report on TRICARE payments for 
breast pumps and replacement parts. In December 2014, public 
law authorized the Defense Health Agency (DHA) to pay for 
manual and standard electric breast pumps and replacement 
parts.
    However, the DHA did not implement maximum reimbursement 
rates for standard electric breast pumps and replacement parts. 
Instead, DHA paid the amount that suppliers billed, unless 
TRICARE regional contractors had negotiated a rate with 
suppliers. We determined that the DHA overpaid $16.2 million 
for breast pumps and replacement parts for TRICARE 
beneficiaries in 2016.
    Specifically, DHA overpaid for over 91 percent of breast 
pumps and nearly 57 percent of replacement parts. We made two 
recommendations to address the deficiencies we identified. 
Specifically, we recommended that the DHA only use suppliers 
that have entered into agreements and have fixed reimbursement 
rates to provide breast pumps and replacement parts.
    We also recommended the DHA recoup payments from the 
suppliers that billed excessive amounts for breast pumps and 
replacement parts. In August 2019, we issued a report on 
TRICARE payments for various healthcare services and equipment.
    Specifically, we focused on claims for which the DHA paid 
the amount the provider billed, or also known as paid as 
billed, for items with high claim costs such as vaccines, 
contraceptive systems, compression devices, oral appliances for 
the treatment of sleep apnea, charges for the installation of 
durable medical equipment, and costs associated with obtaining 
stem cells that were provided to beneficiaries in the TRICARE 
regions in 2017.
    We determined that the DHA regularly paid more than pricing 
benchmarks for services and equipment where it did not 
establish or use existing TRICARE maximum allowable 
reimbursement rates. For example, the DHA paid $3.1 million 
more than pricing benchmarks for 65 percent of vaccines.
    We identified examples of the DHA paying more than pricing 
benchmarks for other items such as durable medical equipment 
and costs associated with obtaining stem cells. For example, 
the DHA paid one supplier as much as $5,000 a month to rent a 
vascular compression device, while two other suppliers rented 
the same device for only $700 a month.
    We made a total of seven recommendations to DHA, including 
identifying the reasons why TRICARE region contractors were not 
using the existing maximum allowable reimbursement rates, 
reviewing opportunities to implement maximum allowable 
reimbursement rates, periodically reviewing those rates, and 
updating TRICARE policy.
    We also recommended that the DHA recoup overpayments and 
seek voluntary refunds from TRICARE providers where the DHA 
paid more than pricing benchmarks. Finally, in September 2020, 
we issued a special report on the actions the DHA took to 
control costs for healthcare claims associated with COVID-19, 
including eliminating co-payments and cost shares for COVID-19 
diagnostic testing, clarifying access to behavioral health 
services via telehealth, and implementing temporary TRICARE 
regulation changes in response to COVID-19.
    As a result, managed care support contractors deferred or 
manually paid claims pending system and pricing updates and 
created dashboards to share information and perform data 
analytics on health care claims related to COVID-19.
    The DHA also implemented other initiatives to monitor that 
COVID-19 claims were paid and tracked properly, and that 
potentially fraudulent COVID-19 related services were 
identified.
    Through these actions, the DHA reduced the risk of medical 
providers exploiting the pandemic for personal gain and 
possibly preventing improper payments before they could occur. 
This concludes my statement, and I would be happy to answer any 
questions you may have.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Roark follows:]

                 Prepared Statement by Michael J. Roark
    Good afternoon Chairwoman Warren, Ranking Member Scott, and 
distinguished Members of the Subcommittee. Thank you for inviting me to 
appear before you today to discuss our oversight work on the Department 
of Defense (DoD) health care.
    Providing for the health and well-being of Service members and 
their families is critical to DOD recruitment, retention, and 
readiness. The annual DOD OIG DOD top management and performance 
challenge reports have consistently highlighted the important 
challenges facing DOD health care, including rising health care costs. 
For example, in 2020, the DOD OIG reported that the DOD must reduce 
vulnerabilities for health care fraud within the Military Health System 
and control rising health care costs. In 2021, the DOD OIG reported 
that the DOD faced challenges, such as fraud, acquisition reforms, and 
payments for health care services with limited or no cost controls.
    One of the leading contributors to increasing health care costs is 
fraud. Health care fraud continues to be one of the top investigative 
priorities for the DOD OIG's Defense Criminal Investigative Service 
(DCIS). DCIS investigations span the spectrum of health care fraud, to 
include pharmacy services, TRICARE, public health, medical facilities, 
medical practitioners, health care kickbacks, and pharmaceutical fraud. 
DCIS is primarily responsible for most TRICARE related fraud 
investigations, and currently has an investigative case count of over 
600 cases up from 565 cases in fiscal year 2022.
    The DOD OIG also conducts audits and evaluations to provide 
oversight of DOD health care. Today I will discuss three audit reports, 
two reports where we identified that additional procedures were needed 
to contain health care costs, and one report that showed that the DOD 
effectively implemented procedures to control costs.
        tricare payments for breast pumps and replacement parts
    On April 25, 2018, we issued a report on TRICARE payments for 
breast pumps and replacement parts. \1\ The objective of this audit was 
to determine whether the DOD paid reasonable prices for standard 
electric breast pumps and replacement parts from suppliers in the 
TRICARE program.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \1\ DOD OIG Report No. DODIG-2018-108, ``TRICARE Payments for 
Standard Electric Breast Pumps and Replacement Parts,'' April 25, 2018.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    In December 2014, Public Law authorized the Defense Health Agency 
(DHA) to pay for manual and standard electric breast pumps and 
replacement parts. \2\ The DHA implemented a policy, effective December 
19, 2014, allowing beneficiaries to obtain either one manual breast 
pump or one standard electric breast pump per birth event. This policy 
also permitted beneficiaries to receive breast pump replacement parts, 
including tubing, adapters, bottle caps, shields, bottles, and locking 
rings, as necessary for up to 36 months.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \2\ Public Law 113-291, ``Carl Levin and Howard P. `Buck' McKeon 
National Defense Authorization Act for 2015,'' December 19, 2014.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The DHA reimburses medical procedures, services, and supplies using 
various reimbursement methodologies to establish maximum reimbursement 
rates to ensure that payments are reasonable. A TRICARE maximum 
allowable reimbursement rate is the payment ceiling for reimbursement 
to providers. However, the DHA did not implement maximum reimbursement 
rates for breast pumps and replacement parts. Instead, the DHA paid the 
amount that the suppliers billed for the breast pumps and replacement 
parts, unless the TRICARE regional contractor had a negotiated rate 
with the suppliers.
    We determined that the DHA overpaid for standard electric breast 
pumps and replacement parts for TRICARE beneficiaries in the three 
TRICARE regions in 2016. Specifically, the DHA overpaid for:

      54,006 of 59,241 breast pumps (91.2 percent); and

      380,911 of 671,112 replacement parts (56.8 percent).

    This occurred because the DHA did not require contractors for the 
three TRICARE regions to use only suppliers that had fixed 
reimbursement rates for breast pumps and replacement parts. As a 
result, we calculated that the DHA overpaid $16.2 million for standard 
electric breast pumps and replacement parts provided to TRICARE 
beneficiaries in all three TRICARE regions in 2016.
    We made two recommendations to address the deficiencies we 
identified. We recommended that the DHA Director use only suppliers 
that have entered into agreements that have fixed reimbursement rates 
to provide standard electric breast pumps and replacement parts 
throughout all TRICARE regions. We also recommended that the DHA 
Director review and pursue appropriate action, such as recouping any 
overpayments from the suppliers that billed excessive amounts for 
breast pumps and replacement parts. Both recommendations are closed.
        tricare payments for health care services and equipment
    On August 20, 2019, we issued a report on TRICARE payments for 
various health care services and equipment. \3\ The objective of this 
audit was to determine whether the DHA paid higher prices than 
necessary for TRICARE health care services and equipment where it did 
not establish or use existing TRICARE maximum allowable reimbursement 
rates.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \3\ DOD OIG Report No. DODIG-2019-112, ``Audit of TRICARE Payments 
for Health Care Services and Equipment That Were Paid Without Maximum 
Allowable Reimbursement Rates,'' August 20, 2019.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    We focused on claims for which the DHA paid the amount the provider 
billed (paid-as-billed) for vaccines and contraceptive systems, such as 
human papillomavirus (HPV) vaccines and intrauterine devices; 
compression devices; oral appliances for the treatment of obstructive 
sleep apnea; charges for the installation of medical equipment; and 
costs associated with obtaining stem cells that were provided to 
beneficiaries in the TRICARE North, South, and West Regions in 2017. We 
selected those services for review because of their high claim costs.
    We determined that the DHA regularly paid more than other pricing 
benchmarks for services and equipment where it did not establish or use 
existing TRICARE maximum allowable reimbursement rates. Specifically, 
the DHA paid more than other pricing benchmarks for vaccines, 
contraceptive systems, compression devices, oral appliances, costs 
associated with the installation of medical equipment, and stem cell 
acquisition provided to TRICARE beneficiaries in the three TRICARE 
regions in 2017. For example, the DHA paid more than other pricing 
benchmarks for 70,248 of 107,953 vaccines (65 percent), and 1,341 of 
5,450 contraceptive systems (25 percent).
    This occurred because the DHA did not:

      use existing TRICARE maximum allowable reimbursement 
rates or other industry pricing benchmarks to pay TRICARE claims for 
vaccines and contraceptive systems;

      identify services and equipment that were paid at prices 
that exceeded other pricing benchmarks;

      define in TRICARE guidance what would constitute an 
excessive payment for TRICARE services and equipment, and provide 
instructions to its TRICARE contractors to identify and limit these 
charges; or

      consistently revise TRICARE reimbursement methodology to 
align with Medicare reimbursement methodologies when paying for TRICARE 
services and equipment.

    As a result, of the $18.1 million reimbursement that we reviewed, 
the DHA paid $3.9 million more than other pricing benchmarks for 
vaccines and contraceptive systems provided to TRICARE beneficiaries in 
the three TRICARE regions in 2017.
    We also identified examples of the DHA paying more than other 
pricing benchmarks for durable medical equipment, and costs associated 
with obtaining stem cells. While we were unable to quantify the total 
magnitude, the examples showed that the DHA paid excessive prices and 
continues to waste funds on other services and equipment that are paid-
as-billed. For example, the DHA paid a supplier as much as $5,000 per 
month to rent a vascular compression device while two other suppliers 
rented the same device for approximately $700 per month.
    Finally, DHA policy requires beneficiaries in certain TRICARE 
categories to pay cost shares for equipment. Therefore, TRICARE 
beneficiaries will continue to pay higher out-of-pocket costs if the 
DHA does not establish or use existing TRICARE maximum allowable 
reimbursement rates. For example, DHA policy requires beneficiaries in 
certain TRICARE categories to pay a 20-percent cost share for durable 
medical equipment. TRICARE beneficiaries paid costs of $1,000 when a 
TRICARE supplier billed $5,000 for the vascular compression device 
rental discussed earlier. This $1,000 cost share far exceeded the 
prices offered by two other DME suppliers that rented the same device 
for approximately $700.
    We made a total of 7 recommendations to the DHA Director:

      identify the reasons why TRICARE region contractors did 
not use existing TRICARE maximum allowable reimbursement rates, take 
immediate actions to confirm that TRICARE claims for vaccines and 
contraceptive systems are paid using the TRICARE maximum allowable 
reimbursement rates, and recoup overpayments;

      determine whether TRICARE region contractors applied 
TRICARE maximum allowable reimbursement rates to health care services, 
other than just vaccines and contraceptive systems;

      determine whether the DHA should adopt vaccine 
manufacturer rates as reported by the CDC when reimbursing TRICARE 
claims for vaccines, and if adopted, regularly update rates to stay 
current with the vaccine manufacturer rates;

      conduct annual reviews to identify health care services, 
supplies, and equipment for which TRICARE paid higher prices, and 
establish and implement new TRICARE maximum allowable reimbursement 
rates accordingly;

      revise TRICARE policy to incorporate wording regarding 
reasonable cost and being a prudent buyer similar to the related 
clauses in 42 Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) 405.502 and Centers for 
Medicare and Medicaid Services Publication 15-1, ``Provider 
Reimbursement Manual'';

      revise TRICARE reimbursement methodologies to align with 
the Medicare program, and establish an annual process to identify 
recent changes to Medicare reimbursement methodologies; and

      seek voluntary refunds from TRICARE providers where the 
DHA paid more than other pricing benchmarks identified in this report. 
As of March 2023, 6 recommendations were closed, and one recommendation 
is resolved, but open.

   dha controls implemented to control costs for tricare covid-2019 
                            related services
    On September 3, 2020, we issued a special report on the actions the 
DHA took to control costs for health care claims in the first year of 
the coronavirus disease-2019 (COVID-19) pandemic. \4\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \4\ DOD OIG Report No. DODIG-2020-125, ``Special Report: Controls 
Implemented by the Defense Health Agency to Control Costs for TRICARE 
Coronavirus Disease-2019 Pandemic Related Services,'' September 3, 
2020.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The DHA issued several letters to the managed care support 
contractors (MCSCs) providing guidance on claims processing for COVID-
19 related claims. The letters included clarifying guidance and various 
new requirements for the MCSCs to implement related to:

      eliminating co-payments and cost shares for COVID-19 
diagnostic testing;

      clarifying access to behavioral health services via 
telehealth;

      eliminating co-payments and cost shares for COVID-19 
serology testing; and

      implementing temporary TRICARE regulation changes in 
response to COVID-19.

    As a result, the MCSCs deferred or manually paid claims pending 
system and pricing updates and created dashboards to share information 
and perform data analytics on health care claims related to COVID-19. 
The DHA also implemented other initiatives. For example, the DHA:

      established work groups to monitor and address COVID-19 
issues related to DOD healthcare;

      updated the pricing system and instituted special 
processing codes to ensure COVID-19 claims are paid and tracked 
properly; and

      added parameters to the annual risk registry that allows 
the DHA to monitor and track potential fraudulent COVID-19-related 
services.

    Through these actions, the DHA took steps to reduce the risk of 
medical providers exploiting the pandemic for personal gain and 
possibly prevented potential improper payments before they could occur. 
With the elimination of co-payments and cost shares and the expansion 
of telehealth and behavioral management services, the DHA provided more 
flexibility for providers and beneficiaries during the COVID-19 
pandemic, which enabled beneficiaries to receive the care they needed.
    This concludes my statement and I would be happy to answer any 
questions you have.

    Senator Warren. Thank you, Mr. Roark. Ms. Field, you are 
recognized for 5 minutes.

 STATEMENT OF ELIZABETH FIELD, DIRECTOR, DEFENSE CAPABILITIES 
        AND MANAGEMENT, GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABILITY OFFICE

    Ms. Field. Thank you. Chairwoman Warren, Ranking Member 
Scott, and Members of the Subcommittee, thank you for inviting 
me to testify on GAO's work regarding the many challenges and 
opportunities that DOD faces related to personnel management.
    With a total of almost 3 million Active Duty 
servicemembers, Reservists, and civilians, not to mention 
countless contracted personnel, the Department of Defense is 
one of the Nation's biggest employers.
    That also means that DOD's workforce is one of its biggest 
cost drivers. In determining personnel requirements, the charge 
to defense officials is clear, use the least costly mix of 
personnel while ensuring the workforce is sufficiently sized 
and comprised of the appropriate mix of military, civilian, and 
contractor personnel with the right skills to carry out the 
mission. I want to emphasize that first part, the using the 
least costly mix.
    As you know, the Federal Government is on an unsustainable 
long term fiscal path. At the end of fiscal year 2022, debt 
held by the American public was about 97 percent of GDP. 
Moreover, the fiscal year 2022 Federal budget deficit was the 
fourth largest in U.S. history. As the largest single category 
of discretionary spending, the defense budget deserves 
scrutiny.
    At the same time, we know that ensuring DOD can carry out 
its mission is vitally important. The military services are 
today facing what some have called the greatest recruiting 
challenge in a generation, all while we encounter increasingly 
complex and bold threats from China, Russia, and non-State 
actors.
    Through our work at GAO, we have identified obstacles that 
can hinder defense officials' ability to strike the correct 
balance between efficiency and effectiveness in shaping their 
workforce: things like unreliable data, overly complicated 
hiring mechanisms, arbitrary staffing cuts, and antiquated 
Department processes.
    We have also identified ways in which DOD could potentially 
cut costs by better managing its resources. In an organization 
as large and complex as DOD, it can be hard to appreciate what 
these challenges and opportunities really look like, so I would 
like to briefly offer one example.
    The military health system relies on more than 240,000 
Active Duty, Reserve, civilian, and contractor personnel to 
provide both operational medical care in support of war and 
contingencies, and to provide beneficiary care to about 9.4 
million eligible people. In 2018, we identified weaknesses in 
DOD's approach to managing its workforce for both operational 
medical care and beneficiary care.
    For example, we reported that in determining medical 
personnel requirements for operational care, the Army, Navy, 
and Air Force were relying solely on military personnel, even 
though civilian and contractor personnel had been used in 
operational settings. We also found that the Military 
Departments were not considering the full cost of Active 
personnel compared to Reservists.
    This is significant because Reserve forces are generally 
less costly than similar Active component units. In terms of 
beneficiary care at military medical treatment facilities, or 
MTFs, we reported that DOD faced numerous challenges 
implementing its planned workforce mix but had not developed a 
strategic workforce plan for managing them.
    For example, we found that DOD had not clearly determined 
how it planned to mitigate the effect of military personnel 
deployments on MTF operations. In one instance, we learned that 
due to overlapping deployments, eight of nine general surgeons 
at a military hospital were deployed at the same time, leading 
to a gap in coverage.
    We also found that DOD had not developed a sound strategy 
for addressing vacancies in civilian positions, a problem that 
has led some MTFs to discontinue providing certain medical care 
due to patient safety concerns or to backfill positions with 
military personnel, which can be unnecessarily costly and erode 
morale.
    We further reported in 2018 that in planning for the 
transition of MTFs from the military Departments to the then 
new Defense Health Agency, DOD had not validated headquarters 
level personnel requirements or conducted a comprehensive 
review that considers the least costly mix of personnel.
    Although DOD concurred with the many recommendations we 
made, the Department has yet to fully implement them. Doing so, 
especially now that the MTF transition has occurred, is even 
more important for ensuring that DOD strikes that difficult 
balance between ensuring medical readiness and providing sound 
patient care on the one hand and cutting unnecessary costs on 
the other.
    In fact, GAO has estimated that DOD could save millions of 
dollars by implementing some of these recommendations. Thank 
you, and I look forward to your questions.
    [The prepared statement of Ms. Field follows:]
      
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Senator Warren. Thank you, Ms. Field. I appreciate your 
being here and appreciate your testimony. I recognize Senator 
Kaine for 5 minutes.
    Senator Kaine. Thank you, Chairwoman Warren, and thank you 
to our witnesses. I think I am going to make my comments maybe 
a little bit more for my colleagues and--but also to share with 
these witnesses or experts some frustrations I have and why I 
am glad that the chair and ranking Member have decided to do 
this hearing and then hopefully embrace others.
    I have been very frustrated in my 10 years on the Committee 
about the absence of real analysis of major initiatives that we 
undertake within the Pentagon, and I am just going to use two, 
military housing, and then the formation of the DHA and the 
military medical services that Ms. Field discussed.
    The Pentagon made a decision, no doubt, for both cost and 
quality reasons in the 1990's, to push a privatized housing 
model. It is not our core expertise. Why don't we let housing 
companies do it? It is not warfighting, let others do it, and 
if they do it, they may be able to save us money and also offer 
higher quality accommodations to military members and families.
    It has been a pretty big failure, and I think the failure 
is more on the Pentagon side of the ledger even than the 
private provider side of the ledger, because the contracts that 
were set up gave the Pentagon significant oversight 
responsibility.
    For example, on a base, the base commander was to hold back 
payment until the end of the year to some certain percentage 
and then decide whether the provider had merited some, or all, 
or none of that payment based on performance. Instead, the 
pattern was essentially for the base commanders to just release 
all the money at year end, regardless of performance.
    The contracts with the private providers were set up so 
that at some midpoint in these long term contractual periods, 
the Pentagon could step back and do an assessment, are you 
meeting the needs of our families? If not, we need to 
renegotiate the contract. That midpoint came. There was no 
renegotiation done.
    Just steady State, it is now off our shoulders, so it is on 
the shoulders of these housing providers, and the housing 
providers weren't being incentivized to really treat our 
military family members the way that they would treat 
commercial clients, because all these providers also had 
commercial business.
    They treat their commercial clients better because they 
would leave and go somewhere else if they didn't. They started 
to treat our military families sort of as hostages. We ended up 
making it worse. We had as a key theme to the NDAA [National 
Defense Authorization Act] a few years ago, there was an effort 
to push cut in headquarter staff, a non-defined, across the 
board cut in headquarters staff without really digging into who 
are headquarters staff.
    I fought very hard against an across the board headquarters 
staff cut. I was unsuccessful. A couple of years later, this 
housing thing blew up in our face, and we went back and looked 
at what was the headquarters staff that was cut. In all of the 
offices that were charged with the responsibility of overseeing 
these housing contracts, they were losing 30, 40, 50, 60 
percent of their staff, and surprise, surprise.
    To quote a famous Marine, Gomer Pyle, surprise, surprise, 
when you cut all the housing staff, suddenly the oversight gets 
worse, and the quality gets worse. A program that was designed 
to save money and a program that hopefully was going to lead to 
a better result, ended up, frankly, probably doing neither.
    We have had to come in, and we are making progress, but we 
are still not really where we are. We ought to have great both 
cost and quality tools to assess a program like this. 
Similarly, the different service branches had their own 
military expertise. The decision was made based on a study that 
was done in 2011 to try to put this together in a combined DHA.
    I still hear all kinds of constituent complaints from 
servicemembers in Virginia and their families about waiting 
lists and insufficient access to services from the DHA. Ms. 
Field, you talked about areas where the DHA is spending more 
than they need to or having a hard time recruiting people into 
key positions.
    Where I hear about it is from our military members and 
their families who have a hard time getting access to services, 
particularly in the mental health space. We have had a raft of 
military suicides at the mid-Atlantic Regional Maintenance 
Center in Norfolk and in ships that are in dry-dock for 
extended periods, and often the availability of mental health 
services is weak.
    One of my staffers went on a carrier avail recently, and on 
the entire carrier there were two mental health psychologist 
positions for this huge group of people, and one was vacant. My 
staffer asked, okay, how long has this position been vacant? 
For a very long time. Well, what is the salary that you would 
pay this psychologist?
    The salary is $85,000. You would make so much more than 
that having a psychology practice in suburban Arlington, 
Virginia, or virtually anywhere in the country, and you 
wouldn't have to be deployed on a carrier for months at a time 
away from your family. We are not going to fill that position 
at that salary.
    These are two instances of big initiatives, transitioning 
healthcare into a DHA environment. Transitioning housing from 
the military provides it, to let's get the housing experts to 
do it. Both are continuing to show major problems. I am not 
sure either really produce savings or produce better quality of 
service to our military men and women.
    I don't really have a question for you, but I guess Senator 
Scott asked me, do you have some issues that are on your mind 
that can inform future discussions?
    I would like to know when we embrace these major 
initiatives, how do we measure them to make sure they are doing 
what we say and how do we maybe get hold of it quicker if it is 
going the wrong direction, to turn it in a positive direction 
rather than just keep investing in something that is not 
bearing out as it should?
    I will just stop there, but I am really happy that you are 
doing this, and I do want to make sure we focus on the dollars, 
but I also want to focus on the bang for the buck. If the 
dollars are being wasted and we are not getting the service 
that we need to either promote lethality or protect our people, 
then I think we have got a lot of work to do, and I appreciate 
the Committee for tackling this.
    Senator Warren. Thank you very much, Senator Kaine, and the 
reminder, this is the first of more than one hearing as we try 
to dig in better on these issues. I really appreciate your 
comments here and the points you highlight. Senator Scott.
    Senator Scott. To followup with one other thing Kaine said. 
I come from a business background, so my first reaction is, it 
is not that the business was bad, right? Was the structure of 
the deal wrong?
    Was there no accountability? Was there no measurement? Did 
it never make, you know--and we don't even have a conversation 
like that. It is like we just want to blame somebody, whoever 
we want to blame. It is not something that should be hard to 
figure out.
    In business, you have the ability and there are all these 
organizations now that you can compare your costs, all this 
stuff to somebody else now. There are all these comparative 
groups that you can buy into, and I wonder, I have never heard 
of any part of the Federal Government, especially DOD, ever 
doing that.
    Going back to Mr. Roark, let me ask you a question. When I 
became Governor of Florida back in 2011, our Medicaid program--
we bid it out, and the benefit of doing it is we knew our cost 
and we also could hold somebody accountable for access and 
quality, right, and outcomes. But you had to put all this 
measurement in there.
    One thing that surprised me, we didn't have any program 
where somebody could say, okay, so I wasn't responsible for 
buying after that. If you are talking about breast pumps, I 
didn't have to buy breast pumps, it was their responsibility to 
do that.
    They have a contract with TRICARE, they bid it out, and 
then the Government is responsible for the purchase of 
equipment?
    Mr. Roark. Senator, in this case, when Congress passed the 
law that enabled breast pumps, I think what happened was that a 
lot of suppliers set up websites and so forth and let military 
spouses and military members know that this benefit was 
available to them, but they didn't have the prices on the 
website.
    Then they--DHA hadn't set up the price ceiling or the price 
cap, if you will, and so, therefore, if there is no price cap 
in place, then it just goes into this paid as billed category, 
as I mentioned in my statement.
    Senator Scott. It is outside of the contract?
    Mr. Roark. Correct, and so, the contractor in that case 
just pays as billed. If there is a cap, then they can only go 
up to that amount. I think that that is the key point here.
    Senator Scott. Do they not use any of these group 
purchasing organizations? Because there are a bunch of them 
now. Now in fact one of my own companies has the biggest in the 
country, and I mean all that stuff, you are guaranteed the 
lowest price. They don't do that?
    Mr. Roark. What we did as the OIG to try to oversee this 
particular item is that we went to look for other benchmarks, 
like you said. Whether that is other Federal health care 
programs, Medicare, Medicaid, or whether that is retail prices, 
you know, we were kind of searching for, you know, what would 
be a reasonable price for these items.
    However, I think that that is the concern and to some 
degree the frustration with the pay to billed model, which is, 
you know, there is a competing interest where DHA wants to get 
the item out to servicemembers in a timely manner, so there is 
the kind of--some incentive to do that quickly. On the other 
side, we also want to ensure that we get what we paid for, and 
we pay a fair price, and so achieving that balance is 
critically important.
    Senator Scott. So, in your report when you look at DHA 
overpayments, was it a little bit of money? Was it--and so, you 
have the numbers on how much it is? Are we talking about quite 
a bit of money?
    Mr. Roark. Correct. For breast pumps, the total amount that 
was paid in 2016 was about $28 million, and we have calculated 
that the excessive charges or the overpayments were about $16 
million.
    Senator Scott. What is the total value of DHA overpayments 
found by the Inspector General? How much money for everything. 
Do you have a total number?
    Mr. Roark. Across the entire health system? I don't have 
that number, but maybe I can speak to these examples. Again, I 
think we highlight these examples as a way of showing that 
there is much more out there, and that great efficiencies could 
be achieved across the board if some of these lessons learned 
are applied across the board.
    Senator Scott. Thanks.
    Senator Warren. I really appreciate this direction on the 
conversation because it is about what information is available 
to us. Here we are, we are talking about civilian employees, 
servicemembers, and as we see up here, the contractors.
    The idea that when we talk about defense contractors, most 
people think about Lockheed Martin or Boeing, these giant 
companies that win these huge contracts to build fighter jets 
or bombs.
    But the DOD relies a lot on what it calls service 
contractors. These are contractors like Booz Allen, McKinsey, 
and CACI International Inc., hired to do things like 
accounting, legal services, consulting. Over the past two 
decades, the Department of Defense has gone from spending about 
$100 billion a year on service contractors, to $205 billion in 
2022.
    This is the point. It is not quite half of the entire 
budget that we are spending, but it sure starting to crowd in 
on it. Mr. Mosher, you lead the National Security Division for 
the Congressional Budget Office, and you have decades of 
experience in budget analysis.
    We know from public reports that DOD currently employs 2.1 
million military personnel and about 770,000 civilian 
personnel. I am going to ask you something I think you answered 
in your original testimony, but it is important enough here. I 
want to underscore it. Do we know how many contractors DOD 
employees?
    Mr. Mosher. In a word, no. We just don't know yet.
    Senator Warren. We don't know, and I think I heard you in 
talking that the estimates that the estimates are from here--it 
is not that we don't know down to the last person. We don't 
even know what the ballpark is here, I take it from what you 
said.
    Mr. Mosher. That is correct. We don't know what the maximum 
number is. OMB provides data in their object class analysis 
that gives the size of the service contracts themselves. One 
way of cutting it would be about $274 billion in 2022, I 
believe. But that tells you what the cost of the contract is. 
It doesn't tell you either the number of the people or how much 
we are paying in labor.
    There will be labor and non-labor costs. One thing that 
is--there are different types of contracts. There are people 
who mow lawns and much of their costs would probably be labor. 
There are people who sit in chairs next to civilians and 
military in the Pentagon. Their costs are probably mostly 
labor.
    But there are also service contracts that provide 
maintenance of tanks and such like that, where you would expect 
a smaller portion of their costs would be labor, and they are 
buying parts.
    Senator Warren. Here we are spending more than $200 billion 
on service contractors. We don't really know how many people we 
are hiring or what we are paying these people.
    We accepted the GAO estimate of $200 billion. I just want 
to point out, CBO has said it may be closer to $300 billion. 
The inability of Government accountants even to estimate how 
much we are spending is a sign that Pentagon contracting is 
badly broken.
    Every time that DOD decides to hire a contractor to perform 
a service for the Department, they are supposed to, by law, be 
taking that on because it is the cost effective way to get the 
job done.
    Ms. Field, this is right in your wheelhouse. Does DOD 
collect data that would allow its managers or allow someone 
doing oversight to conduct a cost comparison to figure out 
whether or not the Department should contract something out or 
do that work in-house?
    Ms. Field. No. So, it is a source of cost savings, in fact, 
to in-source positions, to convert them from contractor to 
civilian. The Department used to have a data base that provided 
some fairly detailed information about contractors that would 
potentially help that sort of analysis. Recently, DOD shifted 
to a Federal Government wide data base system that has less 
data.
    Senator Warren. We now know less than we used to. We spend 
more and have less information about it. The Department of 
Defense's Cost Assessment and Program Evaluation Office found 
that in some cases, defense contractors can cost two or three 
times as much as civilian employees doing exactly the same 
work.
    As you say, people sitting side by side. In other cases, 
they are just outright fraud. In 2014, the Department of 
Defense Inspector General found that defense contractor 
Northrop Grumman improperly billed the Government more than 
$100 million for employees to provide training and logistics 
support for counter-narco terrorism technology program.
    Sounds like an important program. Northrop Grumman was 
charging the Government an average of 100 billable hours a day 
for a single employee. Ms. Field, pretty clearly, nobody can 
work more than 24 hours in a day, so it is a pretty clear sign 
that fraud is going on. When you see something like that, 
right? No one should have any doubt. There is fraud here. Can 
DOD or DODIG easily detect these kinds of overcharges or 
excessive rates?
    Ms. Field. I am not familiar with that particular case, but 
I can absolutely tell you that it is very hard to detect and to 
prove fraud. That is why things like hotlines are so valuable 
for Inspectors General and GAO.
    I will also note very briefly that GAO has recommended some 
improvements to DOD's Fraud Risk Management Program. Their 
guidance Department wide currently does not require routine 
fraud risk assessments. That is something that should be going 
on.
    Senator Warren. Okay, so they don't know how many 
contractors they employ, and they don't have systems in place 
that will catch even blatant fraud. Unfortunately, it gets 
worse from here.
    When DOD submits its annual budget, it has to include a 
projection of the long term cost of its programs so that we 
know not just what something is going to cost in year one, but 
what it is going to look like down the road.
    Ms. Field, can DOD estimate what its future costs are for 
service contracts that go beyond this fiscal year?
    Ms. Field. Not nearly as well as we would like. The 
Department did not used to include services contracting at all 
in the FYDP [Fiscal Year Defense Program], as you mentioned, 
the 5-year future defense program. That was astounding to us 
because service contracts represent consistently about half of 
the Department's contracting costs.
    They have made some improvements in this space, but there 
are many more they could make. Will be issuing a report soon 
with some recommendations.
    Senator Warren. I appreciate that. In fact, the GAO has 
reported that DOD has ``limited visibility'' into DOD's future 
spending plans. If DOD can't track this, I don't know how it is 
that the rest of us are supposed to exercise oversight. So let 
me ask you one more, Ms. Field.
    The GAO has put DOD service acquisitions, meaning how DOD 
manages and makes decisions about hiring outside contractors to 
perform duties like program analysis or engineering advice, on 
your high risk list. That is what you call it, your high risk 
list. What does that mean?
    Ms. Field. The high risk list is a report we put out every 
2 years of the areas of the Federal Government that are most 
vulnerable to fraud, waste, and abuse and, or are in need of 
significant management. DOD has more areas on the high risk 
list that any other agency.
    Senator Warren. All right. So, thank you. I just want to 
summarize here what you all have just told me. DOD doesn't know 
how many contractors it hires.
    DOD can't track whether those contractors will cost more 
money or less money than having a Federal employee do the same 
job. DOD does not have systems in place to catch even the most 
blatant frauds when contractors try to cheat the American 
taxpayer.
    DOD cannot estimate the long term costs of hiring 
contractors, and DOD recognizes that the decisions it makes 
about service contractors run a high risk, one of the highest 
risks in Government that the taxpayer is getting cheated.
    The Department of Defense is not in a position to make 
smart decisions about how to spend taxpayer dollars. It doesn't 
have basic data about what things cost. If Congress doesn't 
have this information, then we can't exercise appropriate 
oversight.
    We should require the Pentagon to put better systems in 
place to collect these data and then make these data available 
to you and us. Thank you. Senator Blumenthal.
    Senator Blumenthal. Amen. I think that is a very powerful 
summary of what we need to do with respect to contracting and 
personnel, nonmilitary service contracting, and other similar 
kinds of DOD contracting. But I want to come back to the 
recruitment issue. Because I think of all the challenges to our 
military right now, the clear and present danger is we are not 
going to get enough good people to wear the uniform.
    The statistic that you provide, 72 percent, that is the 
Army's percentage in meeting its recruiting goal. I had 
breakfast this morning with the commandant to be, hopefully he 
will be confirmed soon and--of the Marine Corps, and he was 
very proud of the fact Marine Corps meets its recruiting goals.
    Senator Kaine and I had some experience with Marines. Our 
two sons served as Active Duty in the Marine Corps. I have 
another son who was a Navy SEAL whom Senator Warren knows. They 
didn't go into it for the money. At the time they were single, 
so they didn't really care that much about the housing and 
schools for kids.
    I notice that you make some recommendations about how to 
address this issue, get more reliable data, monitor plans and 
strategies for effectiveness, goals, plans, and strategies. But 
I think that something more fundamental is needed here because 
you can monitor, you can strategize, but unless you are 
reaching the people you want to recruit, it just won't work.
    I wonder if any of you have insights, for example. We are 
going to raise--if we can get this NDAA approved, we will raise 
military pay 4 percent, 5 percent. I don't know whether that 
will make a difference.
    What is the key here? Should we look to the Marine Corps as 
an elite service? Do we need more of the kind of spirit, 
image--I don't know. You know, there are plenty of ads that try 
to recruit young people. So, tell me what your thoughts are.
    Ms. Field. If I could begin, I would just offer two quick 
thoughts. The first is I think quality of life in the military 
is incredibly important for recruitment because in all of our 
work, we often hear that young, enlisted servicemembers talk 
about their experience with their buddies back home or with 
their families.
    When they hear, for example, that they are living in 
housing, barracks that is in very poor condition, their buddies 
and their family members get the message, don't go into the 
military. So that is my first thought, quality of life, which 
can cover a lot of things to include housing, but also things 
like pay, compensation, food.
    My second thought just for your awareness is that we are 
right now conducting an audit, looking at the recruiting 
programs across the services that will include a look at their 
use of digital and social media. I don't have any results from 
that audit yet, but we will certainly provide them as soon as 
we have.
    That might illuminate why the Marine Corps is more 
successful than other services, particularly the Army.
    Senator Blumenthal. Any others?
    Mr. Roark. For me. I think just to echo the points that my 
colleague Ms. Field made. I think that health care is an 
important part of taking care of the soldiers that we have and 
making sure that their quality of life is as good as possible.
    I think that efficiencies that we can gain in the health 
system to make every dollar count is critically important, and 
I think that is why we are all here today to explore 
opportunities to do that.
    Then on the housing side, I know we have done a number of 
projects on housing hazards, health hazards and so forth, that 
military families face in privatized housing.
    Then we are also completing a series of evaluations right 
now on the Fiscal Year 2020 NDAA provisions for privatized 
housing. We are in the third year of a 3-year series of 
evaluations on that.
    Senator Blumenthal. Well, I look forward to the audit. It 
can't come soon enough, but I want to add one more perspective. 
You know, I recently visited Groton, where our army is training 
Ukrainians to fight.
    I have never seen American troops more motivated and 
engaged than they were in training these young Ukrainians. We 
are about to go fight and die. These are young people who were 
bakers and teachers and computer scientists, and they are being 
taught by our Army who have incredible skills and the challenge 
of teaching those Ukrainians their profession. It is a 
profession.
    Elicited such motivation. The food isn't great, the housing 
is okay, but not great. But the mission is really what drives 
them. I don't know how we attract people. I have seen some of 
the social media, some of the ads about the mission. But that's 
just a thought, not an original thought by any means, but one 
that struck me thinking about recruitment.
    Those young troops from our American troop are going to 
talk about that experience their whole lifetime. The same 
happened, you know, Senator Kaine and I visited one of the 
bases where Ukrainian refugees were brought back, and there 
were marines there. These Marines had never been deployed. But 
working with the refugees is an experience, again, a mission 
for them.
    It is not a combat mission, but it is something where their 
sense of purpose is really fulfilled. So just a thought and I 
don't know how we put it into the recruitment program, but it 
just struck me that that is going to be a selling point if we 
want to get the best and brightest.
    Mr. Mosher. Senator, if I could, on your question about 
recruiting and such. As sort of the data guy, one of the things 
I think you need to look at is, are the services putting the 
money that they should be into the recruiting budgets? How does 
the Army's recruiting budget and numbers of recruiters this 
year compared to 1 year ago or 2 years ago?
    Are they actually sort of doing what you would think they 
would do, and that is putting more money against that. So, look 
at the numbers. Also, don't forget, we are in a boom economy in 
terms of employment and the military always has trouble 
recruiting when you can make good money on the outside. So that 
is another thing to keep in mind as you are looking at this.
    Senator Blumenthal. We are in a boom economy. But you know 
what? What the Marine Corps does is they take some of their 
best people and they put them on recruiting. It is not a 
backwater for them.
    It is essential. They put it as a priority. You know, you 
are great at what you do as a marine? We are going to put you 
out to get more great marines. It is not kind of the fallback 
for a well, you know, so-and-so can't really do the job, let's 
put him into recruiting.
    We will send them out, you know, Hartford, Connecticut. The 
marine who goes to Hartford, Connecticut, is among the best 
because he has to attract the best. So, just another thought.
    Senator Warren. It is a powerful point, Senator Blumenthal. 
Senator Scott.
    Senator Scott. I just want to followup with what Senator 
Blumenthal said. I joined the Navy at 18. They didn't tell me I 
was going to sleep in barracks, we didn't have barracks. We had 
a ship, 57--3 racks up. I think it was 7 feet tall. So, we had 
a rack that was as long as I am tall. Everything we owned was 
in a container that size. That was it.
    The showers actually didn't work that much because when we 
out to sea, because the desalinization stuff didn't work a lot 
of times, and they shut it off right in the middle of the 
shower, which is really nice. Right when you had soaped down. 
Food, not the best.
    Better than what my dad had. He was in the Army. So, I 
think it goes back to mission, and we had a hearing on this, 
and I don't know if you remember hearing much about how they 
were selling mission. I didn't. But the truth is, if you are in 
business, if you can't sell a mission, you are not going to 
recruit good people.
    Actually, our offices I bet can find really good people 
because we have a mission. I think it goes back to, we got to 
really sell why we are doing what we are doing, and I think our 
military leadership and whoever is the President has got to 
sell the fact that we are doing this for a very specific reason 
and purpose, and how important it is.
    If we don't, I think it is going to continue to be hard, 
and you have to admire what the Marines are doing because they 
figured it out. So, can I ask you a question, does anybody meet 
with you all? I mean, you put out these nice reports. Does 
anybody care from the military? Who talks to you guys?
    Ms. Field. I would say, yes. We, for the most part, have a 
good working sort of collegial relationship with DOD officials. 
They do implement many of our recommendations, but I will also 
note DOD has the lowest implementation rate in terms of 
implementing GAO recommendations compared to other agencies.
    So, yes, they meet with us. I think many of them are 
committed, hardworking civil servants, but we would like to see 
our recommendations implemented at a higher rate.
    Senator Scott. Same thing?
    Mr. Roark. For us, same thing for us. So, I think we do a 
lot of outreach with senior officials and with others, and 
whether that is around the world. I travel around the world to 
meet with folks in different organizations and different 
commands and understand what their challenges are and so forth.
    I think we get very positive, candid feedback there, and 
then once we issue a report, or I believe that for the most 
part, DOD handles it in a very professional way and takes it 
seriously. Sometimes recommendations are, you know, a little 
harder to implement. For the most part, I think the 
relationship is positive.
    Mr. Mosher. We are not really a recommendation generating 
agency. We don't make recommendations and kind of till more 
with policy, options, and choices. So, it is a little less 
direct.
    But we certainly do hear from DOD when they don't like 
things that we have written or when they like things that we 
have written. We hear from Members or staff on the Committee. 
So, I think it just really depends for us on the study.
    Senator Scott. Well in business, the shareholders, the 
board--I mean, you don't keep your job if you don't do your 
audit, right? Right, I mean, it is the most basic thing you 
have to do. Or the CEO is not going to stay there. Because if 
you get a bad audit, I mean, you can be delisted if you are a 
public company.
    So, I guess part of it is we have got to hold people 
accountable on our part at the senior level. If they are--if we 
expect them to follow what you guys do. Ms. Field, can I ask 
you a question. Can you tell me what the difference between--
like, take an officer that has Active Duty military working for 
them, and then they hire an outside firm to do the work.
    So, you end up with either a civilian that works for part 
of the Federal Government or a civilian that works for Booz 
Allen or whatever. How do they manage them?
    Because it sure seems like it would be awfully difficult if 
they are not in the military and you are an officer, how do you 
manage these people? Can you fire them? Can you say ``you are 
not going to get a promotion?'' What do you get to do?
    Ms. Field. Yes, that is a great question. I think it is 
difficult, and I think part of the issue, and I will go back to 
the health system just because it is an example that I think 
people can really grasp and identify with. The contracting 
companies, so let's say Booz Allen, they get to decide who they 
are going to send to fill a contract.
    What we heard when we went around to military treatment 
facilities is, if we don't like the candidate that they send--
and they, by the way, have--the companies have 30 to 60 days to 
propose a candidate, they can send that candidate back, but 
then that company has another 30, sometimes 60 days----
    Senator Scott. You are paying all this time?
    Ms. Field. The contract, yes, and so, what we heard from 
MTF was that in some cases they have to decide between filling 
a position with a subpar candidate or leaving that position 
vacant. So, it is a real problem.
    Senator Scott. What about if they are a Federal employee? 
So, if the choice is between a Federal employee and a military 
member, how do you manage them? What would be the differences?
    Ms. Field. I think my understanding, and I have certainly 
observed this, is that Active Duty military try to treat 
everybody as part of the team. It is not surprising, given the 
emphasis on leadership in the military.
    But they do still face the same struggles that we see sort 
of across the civilian workforce, and so Senator Warren pointed 
out the GAO's high risk list. Federal strategic human capital 
is on that high risk list because it is so hard to manage the 
Federal workforce, civilian workforce in the way that would be 
most effective.
    Senator Scott. Thank you.
    Senator Warren. Thank you. I want to talk a bit more about 
healthcare, and just so anybody who is watching this knows, 
servicemembers and their families get their health care 
coverage through TRICARE that we have talked about some today. 
This is the DOD's managed health care program, and it is run, 
you guessed it, by private contractors, including one of the 
largest health insurance companies in the country. The cost of 
this health care coverage is shared by taxpayers, and in some 
cases by servicemembers and their families who have co-pays on 
some of the care that they get.
    The Defense Health Agency is responsible for managing these 
contractors, and it provides the reimbursements for medical 
procedures, services, supplies, whatever is purchased under 
this. Years of support show that TRICARE is allowing rampant 
price gouging by health care providers, driving up costs for 
beneficiaries and ripping off taxpayers.
    The Department of Defense Inspector General has long warned 
about the costs of letting TRICARE fraud continue unchecked. We 
have talked about two examples today, breast pumps that are for 
sale at Wal-Mart for $192. The Federal Government, through 
TRICARE and a private contractor, ends up paying as much as 
$1,500. Vaccines that everywhere else can be purchased for 
$127. What happens through TRICARE? It reimburses $1,848 for 
exactly the same vaccine.
    Now, medical supply companies make a profit when they can 
sell items to private insurance companies. That is how they 
stay in business. But insurance companies typically set a cap 
on what they will reimburse for a product.
    Your audit found that the reason DHA was paying these 
clearly inflated prices was either because the Federal 
Government had failed to set price caps or maximum 
reimbursement rates for these products. In other words, DHA had 
effectively told these companies that they were willing to pay 
whatever it was the company wanted to charge.
    Even in cases where the DHA has set those rates, the DHA 
continually failed to enforce the caps or to claw back money 
when they had been overcharged from the original agreement. 
Now, Mr. Roark, when TransDigm overcharged DOD for spare parts, 
let's get out of health care for a second, your office 
recommended that DOD ask for a refund.
    DOD did, they asked for the refund, and the American 
taxpayer got $16 million back. But what did DHA, let's go back 
to health care, what did DHA say when you recommended asking 
for a refund for TRICARE price gouging, both in areas where 
they had never set a rate to begin with or where there was a 
cap, but DOD had not enforced it? What happened when you asked 
them, go get the money back, or at least some of it?
    Mr. Roark. In our two reports, we kind of covered this in 
two ways. First, we asked them to seek voluntary repayments for 
instances where very high prices had been charged for services 
or for items.
    Then in other cases, we asked them to recoup money for 
instances where they did not enforce the cap, as you mentioned. 
In the end, about $712 was the kind of the total amount that 
they recouped.
    Senator Warren. I am sorry, did you say $712?
    Mr. Roark. Yes--$712,000--$712,000.
    Senator Warren. Okay. All right, $712,000, okay.
    Mr. Roark. In terms of the amount of voluntary repayments, 
it was zero.
    Senator Warren. Voluntary repayments was zero. In fact, I 
have the quote here from your report. DHA said--this is when 
they have been overcharged. DHA said, ``the idea of voluntary 
payments is not realistic.''
    In other words, we just aren't going to do it. Why was it 
in many cases here that DHA didn't even try to get the money 
back? It feels like a failure of both oversight and will.
    Interestingly enough, the former head of DHA, the one who 
made these decisions not to seek voluntary repayments because 
they said we are just not going to get anything from that, 
retired from the agency in 2019 and a year later joined the 
board of the largest TRICARE contractor.
    Mr. Roark, how much do you estimate that DOD could save if 
it just set maximum prices caps, like ordinary insurance 
companies do, and then actually enforced those caps?
    Mr. Roark. I can't say across the entire health system 
because that is just a lot of different areas. However, for 
these two reports that we are here discussing today, we 
calculate that the savings that could be achieved by 
implementing our recommendations was around $100.7 million. 
That is $81.2 million for the breast pumps report and $19.5 
million for the second report.
    Senator Warren. Okay. I just want to underscore this. It is 
$100 million for breast pumps, which is important, but I mean, 
and vaccines, and that is it. We have got $100 million there, 
and we have to assume this problem exists all the way across. I 
am very concerned that DHA is failing to protect TRICARE 
beneficiaries and allowing these companies to rip off 
taxpayers.
    Yesterday, I sent a letter to both the DOD and DHA asking 
both agencies to improve oversight and transparency around 
current TRICARE spending and put new rules in place to prevent 
price gouging of our military families in the future. I think 
we are going to have a lot more work to do in this area.
    Do you have another question you would like to ask? You 
mind if I do one more and then I will be finished? Okay. I have 
got one more round that I want to ask here. During the Obama 
administration, Ash Carter, who was then head of acquisitions 
at the Pentagon, led an initiative to identify improvements in 
how DOD contracts for services. This initiative was called, 
Better Buying Power, and it identified $90 billion in potential 
savings over 12 years. Let me say that again $90 billion.
    One of the biggest recommendations was changing the way 
that DOD writes contract requirements when it buys services, 
everything from cleaning buildings to management consultants. 
The GAO wrote, and I want to quote what the GAO said, 
``determining whether to contract for such services, 
eliminating duplicative or unnecessary services, and 
effectively managing and overseeing contractors is vital to DOD 
achieving its missions.''
    Ms. Field, help me translate those recommendations into 
terms that people who don't do acquisitions policy for a living 
will understand. Is this the basic idea that you can protect 
your budget when you are buying a service by being clear about 
what you expect from whomever you hire, and that you should 
probably do an assessment on the front end to determine whether 
or not you need that work at all. Is that about right?
    Ms. Field. That is exactly right, and maybe to give an 
example in DOD. This would be, for example, one of the 
services, let's take the Army, deciding that it needs to figure 
out how much it is spending on grounds maintenance, right, 
which is something that happens at military installations 
across the world.
    Under this practice, the Army should figure out how many 
contracts does it have for grounds maintenance? How many does 
it need? How can it cut costs by perhaps consolidating 
contracts? It is pretty simple. It is something that we all do 
in our own households.
    Senator Warren. Ask for a volume discount----
    Ms. Field. Right, absolutely. So that is the idea.
    Senator Warren. Okay. Okay. It is a really important 
insight because we are talking about things that pretty much 
every business in America does and pretty much every family by 
figuring out in advance what they are getting and what they are 
paying for it.
    Do you have any idea, Ms. Field, how much money DOD would 
save if they conducted these reviews before they shoveled the 
money out the door?
    Ms. Field. I don't have an across the board estimate for 
you, but I will offer two points. The first is that we know 
that when two of the smaller DOD components used this practice, 
specifically the Defense Logistics Agency and the Defense 
Threat Reduction Agency, DTRA, when they did this, they saved 
hundreds of millions of dollars. Those were----
    Senator Warren. Hundreds of millions for just the smaller--
--
    Ms. Field. Just two small components.
    Senator Warren. Okay.
    Ms. Field. My second point I would offer is that if you 
think about the amount that DOD writ large is spending on 
services contracting, $205 plus billion, if they were able to 
save just 1 percent of that, there is $2 billion right there. 
So, there is a lot of potential.
    Senator Warren. That is a 1-year.
    Ms. Field. That is 1 year.
    Senator Warren. It compounds over time, as you were talking 
about, the effects of this. You know, it is great that DLA and 
other agencies are saving money, but it is the military 
services who buy the lion's share of the services here.
    I just want to make sure that I understand, that the 
military services are not doing similar reviews to the kind you 
talked about across other areas to eliminate duplicative 
contracts and try to save money.
    Ms. Field. So originally really were not doing it, which is 
problematic because, as you mentioned, they account for about 
three-quarters of the service contracting dollars for DOD. GAO 
recommended that the services adopt this practice.
    They have begun implementing it to varying degrees of 
success. We are just about to issue a new report in the coming 
weeks that will identify some recommendations for the services 
to do it better, to hopefully get better results.
    Senator Warren. You are going to make this recommendation 
to the same services that you said have the lowest rate of 
picking up your recommendations. Is that right?
    Ms. Field. Our hope is that they will take them seriously 
and implement them.
    Senator Warren. We will find ways to make them take this 
more seriously. I just want to underscore here about how we are 
leaving money on the table here.
    The Better Buying Power Initiative that I talked about a 
minute ago estimated that sharpening DOD's pencils on review 
requirements alone could save $44 billion over 10 years on 
consulting and research and development contractors. If we got 
even a 10th of that savings, we would be talking about real 
money here.
    When DOD asks for supplemental funding, we should remind 
them that by following a few basic accounting and oversight 
practices, they would have another $44 billion to spend, and 
ask why, if they really need this money, they haven't already 
done that.
    This is just one area where DOD could score huge savings. 
You start to multiply that in other areas and we are talking 
about significant money here. So, I am going to make a closing 
statement. You have closing statement, anything you want to 
say?
    I just want to thank all of our witnesses. I want to thank 
you for your service. I want to thank you for testifying today. 
I want to thank you for continuing to make recommendations, and 
to stay on this. I also want to thank Jon Clark, and Gary 
Leeling, and Andy Scott, and Sofia Kamali, and Noah Sisk, and 
Sean O'Keefe, and Katie Magnus, and Brendan Gavin for their 
work in helping put this hearing today.
    I really appreciate your contributions. I am looking 
forward to working with all of you. We are committed to 
ensuring that servicemembers and their families receive all of 
the resources and all of the support that they need. It is 
clear from today's hearing that DOD has a lot of work to do to 
make sure that we have the right cost efficient mix of Federal 
employees, military personnel, and contractors.
    Those failures add up. DOD's own estimates say that we 
could save $90 billion over the next 12 years, and our 
witnesses today have identified other areas where we can save, 
and we know there are more reports coming on this.
    I remain concerned that the Pentagon is too focused on 
increasing its budget and neglecting to exercise due diligence 
to prevent waste and fraud in the money that we have already 
allocated. Senator Scott.
    Senator Scott. First off, think about what we can do, all 
right, take Mr. Roark, what you said that they didn't get 
voluntary. What if we asked about it, all right. So, if you 
guys will think about that.
    I will give you just some of my business background. This 
was 26 years ago. I ran a hospital company. Our revenue base 
was $24 billion. My savings over--took me a few years to get 
there--was $2.4 billion. It is how much, then how much costs I 
cut out of--and that was out of, our cost structure would have 
been out of 25 percent of the cost. Something like that.
    So much of my savings there. I mean, this is staggering, 
the dollars that you can save. When you have the Government's 
buying power, I mean, it is not a little bit. It is staggering, 
the dollar numbers. I don't want to speak on behalf of the 
chairwoman, but if there are things that would be helpful that 
we can ask for, I think both of us are in the same position.
    We support our military. The fund issue--and I am not--I am 
not sitting here, and I wouldn't say, gosh, I am here to cut 
military spending. I want to make the military spending smart, 
efficient, and have a lethal force. But we do have $32, I think 
you said it, Ms. Fields, we got $32 trillion of the debt.
    We have to spend our money better. We have got problems. 
So, if you guys have any ideas. Do you want to say something, 
Ms. Field?
    Ms. Field. Yes. If I may, I do want to point out that GAO 
issues what we call ``matters for congressional 
consideration.''
    These are recommendations to Congress of improvements that 
we think should be made to programs, many of them that could 
save money. We just issued a report estimating the total 
amount, which was billions that the Government could save.
    There is one that is relevant to the discussion today that 
we have made and has not yet been implemented, and that was a 
recommendation that Congress eliminate the Secretary of 
Defense's authority to contract with U.S. Family Health Plan 
providers.
    This is a very small, little known program, but when we 
assessed it back in 2014, we found that that program largely 
duplicated providing the same benefit to the same beneficiaries 
and many of the same areas as participate in the TRICARE prime 
program.
    The problem with the U.S. Family Health Plan, besides the 
fact that it is duplicative, is that the contractors or the 
companies that provide services under this do not need to 
compete in the same way that you typically would, nor do they 
have to have transparency in how they price out their services.
    That is one matter for congressional consideration that 
remains unimplemented, and if implemented, could save hundreds 
of millions of dollars.
    Senator Scott. You said, Mr. Mosher, this bastion is on the 
service contracting, that you don't have data. Think about how 
much data there is. All that is available. They are just not 
giving it to you. All that data is out there because it has to 
be in the contract, right?
    Mr. Mosher. Well, I think that is the issue, how much is in 
actually in the contract in terms of labor costs and on labor 
costs. There is actually hope in the sense that the Army, we 
think, kind of cracked this.
    They had for several years data that they were looking at 
service contractors, they were demanding from the contractors 
information of the sort that we think would be very useful up 
until about 2015, and then it got wrapped up into the broader 
DOD system, and now we are getting less than we had before.
    You could look back to the way the Army reported and try to 
use that as a model. We think that the OP-8, which is one of 
the budget displays that DOD provides to the Congress, which 
deals with civilians and other labor, does not really capture 
much.
    If you could do something parallel for service contractors, 
that would be data we could use. I mean, I guess my sense is 
the best way to start controlling these sorts of things is to 
have better data. So, and you can ask for that.
    Senator Scott. Good job. Everybody gets a good job today.
    Senator Warren. Thank you.
    Mr. Roark. Can I add one point? One the consistent themes 
that we emphasized across our reports was emphasizing to the 
DOD how important volume discounts are and using our 
negotiating power to see if we can achieve better prices and 
lower cost through that as well.
    I think that regarding some of the points that we have all 
discussed today, I think that for me, the lessons that we can 
learn from the two reports today is just being proactive, 
taking a look at the data for trends to try to identify 
problems before they become a crisis and a lot of money is 
spent, and using those benchmarks, as we talked about, to make 
sure that we are getting the best price possible.
    Then periodically reviewing and monitoring it to make sure 
that we follow through and ensure that those steps that we 
implement are effective.
    Senator Warren. Thank you very much, all three of you. 
Thank you for your service to the country. Thank you for being 
in here today. I hope we will all stay in touch. Thank you. 
This hearing is adjourned.
    [Whereupon, at 5:34 p.m., the Subcommittee adjourned.]

    [Questions for the record with answers supplied follow:]

            Questions Submitted by Senator Elizabeth Warren
                    dod organization and management
    1. Senator Warren. Ms. Field, there have been many efforts to make 
the Pentagon more efficient. In 2010, the then Secretary of Defense 
introduced an initiative to reduce overhead costs and reinvest the 
saved funds into warfighting. Years later, it was reported the 
Department of Defense had a study which found $125 billion that could 
be saved over 5 years in its back-office bureaucracy. Additionally in 
2015, the National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2016, 
required the DOD to cut $10 billion in costs from headquarters, 
administrative, and support activities. What are the impacts--financial 
and otherwise--of reducing costs in headquarters, administrative, and 
support activities?
    Ms. Field. Reducing unnecessary costs should always be a key 
objective for DOD. The issues identified in the above referenced DOD 
study are similar to some of GAO's longstanding high-risk areas at DOD, 
including our business transformation, financial management, and 
contract management high-risk areas. \1\ For example, the Defense 
Business Board study noted that DOD could realize savings by optimizing 
spending on contracts, developing a change strategy that includes 
identifying skills gaps in the workforce, and optimizing information 
technology through application rationalization and consolidation. 
Similarly, GAO has called for DOD to be more strategic in how it 
acquires services, including making greater use of category management 
techniques to identify opportunities to meet the department's needs at 
lower costs; to address the causes and solutions of skill gaps in the 
workforce; and to develop an information technology architecture with 
sufficient information about business activities to allow for more 
effective identification of overlap and duplication.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \1\ GAO, High Risk Series: Efforts Made to Achieve Progress Need to 
Be Maintained and Expanded to Fully Address All Areas, GAO-23-106203 
(Washington D.C.: April 20, 2023).

    2. Senator Warren. Ms. Field, can cost saving be achieved without 
requiring layoffs of civil servants or a reduction of military 
personnel?
    Ms. Field. Yes. Our prior work has found that efforts to review 
service requirements prior to contract award can result in cost savings 
by reducing or eliminating duplicative requirements. For example, we 
reported that defense agencies--such as the Defense Logistics Agency 
and Defense Threat Reduction agency, among others--saved hundreds of 
millions of dollars from fiscal years 2017 to 2019 through holistically 
reviewing their service requirements for efficiencies.
    We have also reported that improvements in DOD's and other Federal 
agencies' use of category management--an Office of Management and 
Budget-led initiative intended to help agencies buy more strategically 
and achieve efficiencies--has resulted in more than $35 billion in cost 
savings across contracts for goods and services. DOD spent $414 billion 
on contracts for goods and services in fiscal year 2022, so savings 
identified on just 1 percent of that total through improved use of 
service requirements reviews or category management initiatives would 
amount to over $4 billion.\2\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \2\ Contract obligations based on GAO's analysis of Federal 
Procurement Data System data.

    3. Senator Warren. Ms. Field, the DOD was able to identify over $9 
billion in cost savings for headquarters, administrative, and support 
activities. Has the DOD implemented changes to save the $9 billion it 
has identified? If not, why has it not done so?
    Ms. Field. I believe this question refers to a DOD report that it 
had identified a total of $9.2 billion in cost savings from fiscal year 
2015 through fiscal year 2019. However, we found that DOD did not have 
a reliable cost estimate to support these estimated savings.\3\ 
Further, according to DOD's internal assessment, $5.3 billion of these 
cost savings were ``not auditable'' because the baseline for reductions 
had not been established, among other reasons. In addition, 
documentation supporting cost savings estimates from other efficiencies 
was not sufficiently detailed.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \3\ GAO, Defense Efficiency Initiatives: DOD Needs to Improve the 
Reliability of Cost Savings Estimates, GAO-17-724 (Washington, DC: July 
24, 2017).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Reducing the resources devoted to headquarters activities has been 
a long-standing challenge for DOD, but our subsequent work has shown 
some progress in that area. In our November 2020 report on DOD's reform 
efforts, we found that DOD's savings estimates were generally reflected 
in its budget materials. \4\ In addition, through implementation of its 
Performance Improvement Framework, which DOD issued in October 2022, 
the department has put in place a process that may help to collect and 
validate information on the costs and savings associated with reform 
efforts.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \4\ GAO, Defense Reform: DOD Has Made Progress, but Needs to 
Further Refine and Formalize Its Reform Efforts, GAO-21-74 (Washington, 
DC: November 5, 2020).

    4. Senator Warren. Ms. Field, the DOD increased and improved its 
acquisition workforce after an almost 50 percent reduction between 1989 
and 1999. How can the DOD improve efficiency and reduce waste in its 
acquisition management?
    Ms. Field. DOD can continue its efforts to attract, hire, sustain, 
and improve the defense acquisition workforce and provide clear 
guidance on ways to more strategically and efficiently buy goods and 
services. GAO's prior work has found that a larger acquisition 
workforce has allowed DOD to bolster support for critical functions, 
such as program management, engineering, and contracting. DOD has also 
continued to take steps to ensure the acquisition workforce has needed 
skills and training to perform key tasks by completing competency 
assessments for each of its acquisition career fields and transforming 
its credentialing processes for acquisition career fields.
    DOD can continue to support its acquisition workforce by making 
sure it has clear and up to date guidance on managing acquisitions. For 
example, DOD plans to issue guidance by the end of this fiscal year on 
better managing its service acquisitions through the use of category 
management--an Office of Management and Budget-led initiative intended 
to help agencies buy more strategically and achieve efficiencies. We 
have reported that improvements in DOD's and other Federal agencies use 
of category management has resulted in more than $35 billion in cost 
savings across contracts for goods and services. In September 2023, we 
also made recommendations to update Air Force and Army service 
acquisition policies to ensure data on service acquisitions are 
aggregated and reviewed to identify broader cost savings and 
efficiencies.

    5. Senator Warren. Ms. Field, what would be the financial and 
management impact for DOD reducing its acquisition and auditing 
workforce?
    Ms. Field. Maintaining a skilled acquisition workforce is vital to 
maintaining military readiness, increasing DOD's buying power, 
achieving savings, and meeting emerging challenges and complexities. 
Following reductions in the size of DOD's acquisition workforce in the 
1990's due to decreasing defense budgets and concerns about skill gaps 
and growing reliance on contractors to perform tasks, GAO included 
DOD's acquisition workforce as an area on GAO's High Risk list. DOD has 
taken steps to rebuild its acquisition workforce since 2009. For 
example, DOD leveraged the Defense Acquisition Workforce Development 
Fund to hire, train, and retain a workforce that grew from around 
126,000 in fiscal year 2008 to nearly 183,000 in fiscal year 2020, and 
has implemented recommendations GAO made to improve how it selects, 
trains, and mentors program managers--a critical acquisition career 
field. These steps, among others, allowed GAO to remove DOD's 
acquisition workforce from GAO's High Risk list in 2021. We have 
ongoing work to assess DOD's financial management workforce and expect 
to issue a report early next year.

    6. Senator Warren. Mr. Roark, you mentioned a 2021 report where DOD 
Office of Inspector General (OIG) found the DOD faced challenges to 
acquisition reforms in health care services. What are the challenges 
the DOD faces in acquisition management?
    Mr. Roark. My statement was from the OIG Management Challenges list 
2021, it was just a general statement on an overall risk. Nothing 
further to report.

    7. Senator Warren. Mr. Roark, how can the DOD overcome these 
challenges?
    Mr. Roark. The two main reports discussed at the hearing were DOD 
OIG reports DODIG-2018-108, ``TRICARE Payments for Standard Electric 
Breast Pumps and Replacement Parts,'' and DODIG-2019-112, ``Audit of 
TRICARE Payments for Health Care Services and Equipment That Were Paid 
Without Maximum Allowable Reimbursement Rates.'' The recommendations 
from these two DOD OIG reports, discussed in the response to question 
10 below, can help the DOD avoid improper payments for health care.

    8. Senator Warren. Ms. Field, the DOD has not passed an audit since 
they started the independent reviews in 2017. The Government 
Accountability Office (GAO) reported that the DOD ``remains the only 
major agency that has never been able to accurately account for and 
report on its spending or physical assets.'' What value can be gained 
from the DOD passing its independent audit?
    Ms. Field. The financial statement audit has value far beyond the 
audit opinion. It can help to identify vulnerabilities and ways to 
improve operations. As DOD reported, financial audits have resulted in 
short-and long-term benefits. The audits have increased transparency 
and visibility of financial management issues, and are providing a 
positive return on investment from value gained through independent 
auditor insight into DOD's business processes. These audit insights 
help DOD to assess what is performing well and what areas still need 
improvement. The audits have also helped identify assets that DOD did 
not know existed. For example, as DOD reported in its June 2020 
Financial Information and Audit Remediation report, the Navy identified 
and added nearly $2.4 billion of unrecorded inventory, operating 
materials and supplies, and general equipment. The Navy subsequently 
used those items to fill over 12,000 requisitions, which otherwise 
would have cost $50 million. DOD reported that as a result of increased 
transparency and visibility of financial management, it improved its 
operations and business processes, which should lead to the preparation 
of reliable financial statements and help DOD's mission by providing 
accurate information for decisionmaking. For example, in fiscal year 
2022, the Air Force identified and corrected approximately $5.2 billion 
worth of variances in its general ledger for equipment and accumulated 
depreciation. DOD reported that this increased level of visibility 
allows for greater control and oversight of financial transactions 
related to military equipment.

    9. Senator Warren. Ms. Field, what are the greatest challenges for 
DOD passing an audit?
    Ms. Field. Issues and risks that hinder DOD's ability to achieve a 
clean audit opinion include (1) material weaknesses, (2) ongoing 
deficiencies with DOD's financial management systems, and (3) 
introduction of new systems and challenges associated with 
implementation of those systems.\5\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \5\ A material weakness is a deficiency, or combination of 
deficiencies, in internal control over financial reporting, such that 
there is a reasonable possibility that a material misstatement of the 
entity's financial statements will not be prevented, or detected and 
corrected, on a timely basis.

      While it is possible for any audited entity to receive a 
clean audit opinion and still have material weaknesses, some material 
weaknesses prevent the auditor from performing procedures to draw a 
conclusion on the financial statements. DOD consolidated 16 of its 
identified material weaknesses into 10 categories the department now 
tracks and reports, which includes Information Technology, Fund Balance 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
with Treasury, property, and reporting entity.

      DOD has wide-ranging weaknesses in its financial 
management systems that prevent it from collecting and reporting 
financial and performance information that is reliable, useful, and 
timely. DOD's financial management and business systems modernization 
efforts have been on GAO's list of high-risk programs and initiatives 
since 1995. DOD management recognizes the risk that legacy systems pose 
to its operations and related accounting, and is in the process of 
identifying, retiring, and replacing legacy systems. However, DOD must 
first produce a complete inventory listing of systems before it can 
ensure retirement of all noncompliant systems.

      For over 30 years, DOD has initiated a variety of efforts 
and undergone several changes in organizational responsibility to help 
modernize its business and financial systems and improve the quality of 
data. However, DOD rarely processes financial transactions using only 
one IT system. For example, in fiscal year 2021, DOD reported that it 
used 299 separate IT systems to support its financial statements. The 
audit requirement for supportable transactional data is speeding the 
pace of system improvements, including new system implementation, which 
will eventually provide management with insights, metrics, analytics, 
and a common operating picture from which to make informed decisions.
                                tricare
    10. Senator Warren. Ms. Field and Mr. Roark, there are a series of 
DOD Inspector General (IG) reports finding that the DOD is failing to 
prevent price gouging and overpayments to contractors in the TRICARE 
health program. One contributor to these excess healthcare costs is 
improper payments. What recommendations does your organization have for 
the DOD to better manage improper payments?
    Ms. Field. In 2015, GAO found that the Defense Health Agency's 
(DHA) method for measuring TRICARE improper payments only examines the 
claims processing performance of the contractors that process TRICARE's 
purchased care claims and does not examine the underlying medical 
record documentation to discern whether each sampled payment was 
supported.\6\ As a result, we reported that TRICARE's reported improper 
payment estimates may underState the amount of improper payments for 
the program. To better assess and address the full extent of improper 
payments in the TRICARE program, we recommended that the Secretary of 
Defense direct the Assistant Secretary of Defense (Health Affairs) to 
implement a more comprehensive TRICARE improper payment measurement 
methodology that includes medical record reviews, as done in other 
parts of its existing post-payment claims review programs. Since that 
time, DHA has taken some action to incorporate medical record reviews 
into its improper payment estimates, including completing 2 years of 
such review. However, the agency has not taken steps to continue 
medical reviews or incorporate the results of such reviews into the 
TRICARE improper payment estimates. Relatedly, we recommended that the 
Secretary of Defense direct the Assistant Secretary of Defense (Health 
Affairs) to develop more robust corrective action plans that address 
underlying causes of improper payments, as determined by the medical 
record reviews. By fully implementing these recommendations, DOD would 
be better positioned to understand and address the extent of TRICARE 
improper payments.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \6\ GAO, Improper Payments: TRICARE Measurement and Reduction 
Efforts Could Benefit from Adopting Medical Record Reviews, GAO-15-269 
(Washington, DC, Feb 18, 2015).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Mr. Roark. In DOD OIG reports DODIG-2018-108 and DODIG-2019-112, 
the DOD OIG made a total of 9 recommendations, 3 of which pertain to 
improper payments. For report DODIG-2018-108, we recommended that the 
Defense Health Agency use only suppliers that have fixed reimbursement 
rates for electric breast pumps, and that it pursue actions, such as 
recouping overpayments, from suppliers that billed excessive amounts 
for breast pumps and replacement parts. For report DODIG-2019-112, we 
recommended that the Defense Health Agency identify reasons why 
contractors did not use existing TRICARE maximum reimbursement rates 
for vaccines and contraceptive systems. Further, we recommended that 
the Defense Health Agency update policy, conduct periodic reviews of 
reimbursement rates, and seek recoupment for overpayments.

    11. Senator Warren. Ms. Field and Mr. Roark, how much could the DOD 
be saving by more effective improper payment management?
    Ms. Field. With respect to TRICARE, we do not have an estimate of 
the financial savings that would result from DOD implementing our 
recommendation for improved improper payment reporting or of other 
efforts by DOD to improve TRICARE improper payment management.
    Mr. Roark. For OIG reports DODIG-2018-108 and DODIG-2019-112, we 
identified a total of $116.9 million in potential monetary benefits. 
Specifically, for report DODIG-2018-108, we identified $81.2 million in 
funds put to better use and $16.2 million in questioned costs. For 
report DODIG-2019-112, we identified $19.5 million in funds put to 
better use.

    12. Senator Warren. Ms. Field, what lessons can be learned from how 
the Department of Health and Human Services' (HHS) Centers for Medicare 
& Medicaid Services' (CMS) approach to improper payments?
    Ms. Field. In 2015, we found that DOD uses a methodology for 
measuring TRICARE improper payments that is less comprehensive than the 
methodology used to measure improper payments in Medicare. We reported 
that CMS's approach to measuring Medicare improper payments examines 
medical records associated with a sample of claims to verify support 
for the payment. This methodology more completely identified improper 
payments beyond those resulting from claim processing errors, such as 
those related to provider noncompliance with coding, billing, and 
payment rules.
    Additionally, CMS we reported that reports more comprehensive 
information about root causes of improper Medicare payments than DOD 
does for TRICARE, develops corrective actions that more directly 
address root causes, and uses the information to address the agency's 
goal of reducing future improper payments.

    13. Senator Warren. Ms. Field, which other departments or agencies 
that manage improper payments better than the DOD?
    Ms. Field. We have not specifically assessed whether other 
departments or agencies manage improper payments better than DOD. 
However, agency inspectors general report annually on their agencies' 
compliance with criteria included in the Payment Integrity Information 
Act of 2019 (PIIA) and related Office of Management and Budget 
guidance. PIIA includes six criteria for compliance, which OMB guidance 
expands to 10. OMB instructs inspectors general to report on whether 
agencies complied with these criteria, such whether agencies conducted 
improper payment risk assessments, reported estimates, and developed 
corrective actions plans, as required.
    In March 2023, we noted that for fiscal year 2021, only 10 of the 
24 agencies specified in the Chief Financial Officers Act of 1990 (CFO 
Act), as amended, were compliant with PIIA and related OMB criteria, as 
reported by their inspectors general.\7\ These agencies were: (1) U.S. 
Agency for International Development, (2) Department of Commerce, (3) 
Department of Energy, (4) Department of Interior, (5) Department of 
Justice, (6) Department of State, (7) Department of Transportation, (8) 
General Services Administration, (9) National Science Foundation, and 
(10) Nuclear Regulatory Commission. The total of 10 compliant agencies 
was a decrease from 12 agencies in fiscal year 2020, and the lowest 
number of compliant CFO Act agencies since fiscal year 2017.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \7\ GAO, Improper Payments: Fiscal Year 2022 Estimates and 
Opportunities for Improvement, GAO-23-106285 (Washington, DC: March 29, 
2023).

    14. Senator Warren. Ms. Field, are there best practices DOD should 
adopt?
    Ms. Field. We have issued several resources for use in managing 
improper payments. These include:

      Standards for Internal Control in the Federal Government 
(known as the Green Book). \8\ The Green Book provides managers 
criteria for designing, implementing, and operating an effective 
internal control system, which is key to preventing and reducing 
improper payments.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \8\ GAO, Standards for Internal Control in the Federal Government, 
GAO-14-704G (Washington, DC: September 10, 2014).

      A Framework for Managing Fraud Risks in Federal Programs. 
\9\ This framework identifies and conceptualizes leading practices to 
aid program managers in managing fraud, including fraud that results in 
improper payments.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \9\ GAO, A Framework for Managing Fraud Risks in Federal Programs, 
GAO-15-593SP (Washington, DC: Jul. 28, 2015).

      A Framework for Managing Improper Payments in Emergency 
Assistance Programs.\10\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \10\ GAO, A Framework for Managing Improper Payments in Emergency 
Assistance Program, GAO-23-105876 (Washington, DC: July 13, 2023).

    This framework provides principles that can help Federal program 
managers mitigate improper payments in emergency assistance programs, 
and it can also be useful for managing improper payments in non-
emergency assistance programs or during normal program operations.
    In addition, in a June 2023 report, we examined programs with 
reported reductions in estimated improper payment rates since fiscal 
year 2017. \11\ We identified examples of 19 programs across eight 
agencies with reported reductions, according to fiscal year 2022 
reporting. Based on our review of agencies' financial reports and 
interviews with agency officials, including DOD, we found that 
strategies and efforts for mitigating improper payments varied. 
However, we found that the most commonly reported mitigation efforts 
fell under two broad categories: (1) establishing accountability and 
facilitating internal collaboration, and (2) providing technology, 
tools, and training targeted to root causes. Efforts related to these 
categories may have contributed to reductions in programs' estimated 
improper payment rates.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \11\ GAO, Improper Payments: Programs Reporting Reductions Had 
Taken Corrective Actions That Shared Common Features, GAO-23-106585 
(Washington, DC: June 30, 2023).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    DOD has taken some steps to adopt practices that could help reduce 
improper payments. For example, for our June 2023 report noted above, 
DOD told us the department had established senior accountable officials 
at the senior executive service level in each of the military services 
and defense agencies to promote accountability for the DOD payment 
integrity efforts. In addition, according to DOD, the department 
developed and implemented processes and tools to evaluate, monitor, and 
measure improper payments for DOD Travel Pay, including developing 
performance metrics and tracking them via spreadsheets and data base 
dashboards, performing periodic quality assurance reviews of metrics 
and corrective action implementation, and monitoring recovery of 
overpayments.
    DOD is also using Advana, an enterprise data platform, across the 
department for advanced analytics. Specifically, according to DOD 
officials, DFAS utilizes the Advana Improper Payment Detection (IPD) 
tool for the early identification and prevention of improper payments 
in seven entitlement systems (i.e., contractual payment systems). DOD 
officials told us that the Advana IPD tool has identified and prevented 
more than 7,000 potential improper payments since it was implemented in 
December 2020. We are working with DOD to obtain more information on 
the savings generated from the tool.
                             privatization
    15. Senator Warren. Ms. Field, there has been an effort to 
privatize commissaries on military installations or at least study the 
effects of privatizing commissaries. Would privatizing commissaries 
improve their quality for military personnel and provide cost-savings 
for the DOD?
    Ms. Field. GAO has not directly assessed whether privatization 
would improve the quality for military personnel and provide cost-
savings for DOD. However, GAO has issued several reports on the Defense 
Commissary Agency's (DeCA) management of the commissaries, in which we 
identify the ways in which DeCA does not operate like a business 
because it is required to provide certain benefits to service members, 
their families, and retirees.

      First, as we reported in 2022, DeCA's two primary 
objectives of generating savings and increasing margin can be in 
tension with one another, particularly if the targets set for each are 
incompatible. \12\ Specifically, if DeCA raises the prices on certain 
items to generate more margin (and therefore reduce its reliance on 
appropriations), the savings to the customer on those items decreases. 
Conversely, if DeCA lowers prices to provide more savings to customers, 
DeCA's ability to generate a margin decreases. Since fiscal year 2016, 
DeCA has had a global target customer savings rate of 23.7 percent, 
meaning that it expects its customers to save, on average across all 
commissary locations, over 20 cents on the dollar by shopping at a 
commissary instead of making similar purchases at other local grocery 
stores.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \12\ GAO, Defense Commissaries: Actions Needed to Clarify 
Priorities and Improve Program Management, GAO-22-104728 (Washington, 
DC: June 28, 2022).

      Second, DeCA operates commissaries throughout the United 
States, including in isolated or more remote areas, as well as at 
overseas locations in 13 countries. This means that DeCA operates 
commissaries in some locations that would not necessarily be considered 
profitable by the private grocery industry, but that are important to 
the customer population. Whereas a private grocery store chain might 
close a location based on lack of profitability, DOD must follow clear 
criteria defined in a DOD instruction to close a commissary. \13\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \13\ DOD Instruction 1330.17, DOD Commissary Program (June 18, 
2014) (incorporating change 2, effective Sept. 14, 2018)

    Given these factors, any assessment of the potential effects of 
privatizing commissaries would need to determine if a private company 
could both deliver the full intended benefit to all consumers, 
including those in remote and rural locations, and provide the intended 
customer savings, or whether those benefits and savings should be 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
adjusted.

    16. Senator Warren. Ms. Field, did the privatization of military 
housing improve the quality of housing for military personnel and 
provide cost-savings for the DOD?
    Ms. Field. In seeking the authorities granted to DOD under the 
Military Housing Privatization Initiative (MHPI) in 1996, department 
officials posited that leveraging private sector financing would allow 
them to eliminate inadequate housing more economically and faster than 
could be achieved through traditional military construction financing. 
As such, GAO's work in the early years of MHPI sought to assess the 
validity of this assumption. A number of complicating factors made 
doing so difficult. In 1996, for example, GAO reported that because DOD 
was using new construction standards to assess the condition of 
military-owned housing units, many housing units that DOD classified as 
inadequate were not dilapidated, but only lacked modern amenities, such 
as a separate utility room or a carport. \14\ In other words, there was 
no reliable baseline with which to compare the condition of the new, 
privatized housing to the old, government-owned housing. Based on this 
work, we further stated in 1998 that while we recognized that DOD faced 
significant housing problems, we did not fully agree with DOD on the 
magnitude of the problem. \15\ Further, in 2000, we reported that, 
because no projects under the program had been completed, there was 
little basis for evaluating the effectiveness of the program in 
eliminating inadequate housing more economically and faster than could 
be achieved through traditional military construction financing.\16\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \14\ GAO, Military Housing: Privatization Off to a Slow Start and 
Continued Management Attention Needed, GAO/NSIAD-98-178 (Washington, 
DC, July 17, 1998).
    \15\ GAO/NSIAD-98-178.
    \16\ GAO, Military Housing: Continued Concerns in Implementing the 
Privatization Initiative, GAO/NSIAD-00-71 (Washington, DC: March 30, 
2000).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    However, we were able to evaluate DOD's estimated cost savings. 
When GAO analyzed the complete life-cycle cost estimates that DOD had 
prepared for individual projects, we found that, overall, the cost 
savings were likely to be more modest than predicted. For example, in a 
1998 analysis of two privatized housing projects, GAO's review showed 
that although privatization was less costly for each project, the 
overall estimated cost savings to the Government were considerably less 
than the military services' estimates--about $54 million less, or about 
7 percent, at one of the two installations, and $15 million less, or 
about 10 percent, at the other. GAO also found in a subsequent review 
of 12 projects that privatization, on average, should cost the 
government about 11 percent less than military construction financing. 
For 10 of the projects, we calculated that the estimated savings ranged 
from 38 percent to 5 percent. For the remaining two projects, we 
estimated that privatization would cost more than military 
construction--about 9 percent and about 15 percent more, 
respectively.\17\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \17\ 17GAO/NSIAD-00-71.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    In recent years, as questions about whether privatization was the 
right policy choice have transitioned to questions about how 
privatization is working, GAO's work has focused on assessing the 
financial health of privatized housing projects and DOD's oversight of 
the condition of the housing.
                               __________
               Questions Submitted by Senator Joe Manchin
                    government accountability office
    17. Senator Manchin. Ms. Field, the Government Accountability 
Office (GAO) recommended in 2005 that the position of Chief Management 
Officer (CMO) be created within the Department of Defense. Does GAO 
still believe a CMO position is necessary?
    Ms. Field. Yes, we believe a CMO function or its equivalent, as 
discussed below, is needed to ensure that DOD can effectively manage 
business reform to achieve progress. Our work has identified the need 
for DOD to have dedicated leadership at a very senior level, with 
significant authority, clearly defined roles and responsibilities, and 
resources to successfully drive business reform. There are different 
models that DOD and Congress could adopt to ensure that a fully 
empowered senior leader focused on business operations and 
transformation is in place. For example, the U.S. Department of State 
has adopted a ``two deputies'' model, in which one Deputy Secretary of 
State focuses on management and resources issues, while the other 
focuses on the more traditional mission responsibilities of the Deputy 
Secretary of State. The CMO model is another structure that DOD could 
adopt to address DOD's longstanding weaknesses in managing its business 
operations, if the position is sufficiently empowered and resourced to 
perform these duties.
    For more than a decade, DOD and Congress have experimented with 
different organizational structures to try to facilitate successful 
business reforms within the department, and to address longstanding 
weakness that have resulted in reduced efficiencies and ineffective 
performance. We have assessed many of these structures and the reform 
initiatives that have come out of them, and have found that these 
characteristics--senior leader with sufficient authority, clearly 
defined roles and responsibilities, and sufficient resources--to be 
critical to success.

    18. Senator Manchin. Ms. Field, how would GAO characterize the 
Department of Defense handling of that 2005 recommendation to create a 
CMO until it was formally created by Congress in the Fiscal Year 2018 
National Defense Authorization Act?
    Ms. Field. DOD's response to GAO's recommendation to create a CMO 
reflected progress in some areas, but challenges in others, and was not 
fully successful. DOD first took steps to establish a CMO role in May 
2007, when it designated the Deputy Secretary of Defense as the 
department's CMO. In September 2007, we found that while the Deputy 
Secretary was at the appropriate level with sufficient authority and 
responsibility to transform business operations, the demands placed on 
the position made it difficult for them to maintain the oversight, 
focus, and momentum needed to resolve business operational 
weaknesses.\18\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \18\ GAO, DEFENSE BUSINESS TRANSFORMATION; Achieving Success 
Requires a Chief Management Officer to Provide Focus and Sustained 
Leadership, GAO-07-1072, (Washington, DC: September 5, 2007).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Subsequently, Congress included a provision in the National Defense 
Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2008 to codify the Deputy Secretary 
of Defense as the DOD CMO, establish a new position known as the Deputy 
Chief Management Officer (DCMO) to assist the Deputy Secretary, and 
name the Under Secretaries of the military departments as CMOs of their 
respective organizations. \19\ The military departments also 
established DCMO positions to assist the CMOs with overseeing their 
business operations. In addition, the National Defense Authorization 
Act for Fiscal Year 2009 required the secretary of each military 
department to establish an office of business transformation and 
develop business transformation plans, with measurable performance 
goals and objectives, to achieve an integrated management system for 
the business operations of each military department.\20\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \19\ Pub. L. No. 110-181, Sec.  904 (2008).
    \20\ Pub. L. No. 110-417, Sec.  908 (2008).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    While these structures resulted in enhancements in DOD's business 
operations, we found that DOD had not defined the relationship between 
the DCMO and military departments, and that the DCMO was advisory and 
not held accountable for results. We also found that DOD needed to 
further define how the CMO and DCMO would monitor and assess 
information to measure department-wide progress against goals, among 
other things.\21\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \21\ See GAO, High-Risk Series: An Update, GAO-13-283 (Washington, 
DC: February 2013); High-Risk Series: An Update, GAO-11-278 
(Washington, DC: February 16, 2011); and High-Risk Series: An Update, 
GAO-09-271 (Washington, DC: January 22, 2009).

    19. Senator Manchin. Ms. Field, would you say the Department in any 
serious way attempted to address the concerns raised by GAO that lead 
the Office to recommend the creation of that position?
    Ms. Field. One key reason that DOD's Approach to Business 
Transformation has remained on our High Risk List since 2005 is that 
the department has not fully implemented our recommendations designed 
to position DOD for success in this area. For example, in 2005 we found 
that a lack of sustained leadership attention and appropriate 
accountability had challenged DOD's progress in implementing a risk 
management framework, and that such leadership was needed for 
transformational efforts.\22\ We made several recommendations related 
to assigning clear leadership with accountability, and developing 
performance measures, among others, but DOD did not fully implement 
them.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \22\ See GAO, Defense Management: Additional Actions Needed to 
Enhance DOD's Risk-Based Approach for Making Resource Decisions, GAO-
06-13 (Washington, DC: November 15, 2005).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    In 2007, we reported that while DOD had made progress establishing 
a management framework for overall business transformation, it did not 
fully address broader business transformation efforts.\23\ We concluded 
that DOD's efforts at business transformation consisted of various 
entities whose interrelationships were not clearly articulated and 
numerous plans that were not integrated across the department. We 
further found that there was no single individual, office, or 
integrated plan within DOD to provide a complete and focused assessment 
of the department's business transformation efforts. We recommended 
that DOD institutionalize in directives the roles, responsibilities, 
and relationships among various business-related entities and 
committees and expand the management framework to capture overall 
business transformation efforts, rather than limit efforts to 
modernizing business systems. DOD did not implement this 
recommendation.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \23\ GAO-07-1072.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Although DOD has taken some actions over the years to act on GAO's 
recommendations in this area, key recommendations remain unimplemented. 
Among them are that DOD routinely and comprehensively monitor and 
evaluate ongoing efficiency initiatives, and consistently report reform 
savings based on definitions of reform.

    20. Senator Manchin. Ms. Field, what does GAO attribute the 
supposed ``failures'' of the CMO to as identified in the May 6, 2020 
Defense Business Board Independent Assessment?
    Ms. Field. We found that the absence of a chartering directive, 
cultural resistance to enterprise-wide transformation efforts, a lack 
of resources, and sustained challenges in delivering material reform 
limited the effectiveness of the position. In its 2020 assessment of 
the CMO position, among other things, the Defense Business Board 
concluded that the CMO position was not set up for success, and we 
agree. In addition, a June 2023 report from the Defense Management 
Institute echoed these structural and cultural challenges, and 
concluded that they hindered the ability of the CMO to drive business 
reform.
    As we reported in 2019, while Congress had given the CMO both 
significant responsibilities and authorities--subject to the authority, 
direction, and control of the Secretary and Deputy Secretary of 
Defense--DOD had not resolved unanswered questions about how the CMO's 
responsibilities and authorities would be carried out. \24\ For 
example, the National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2019 
directed the Secretary of Defense, acting through the CMO, to reform 
DOD's enterprise business operations across all organizations and 
elements of the department with respect to any activity relating to 
civilian resources management, logistics management, services 
contracting, or real estate management. \25\ Fulfilling these 
responsibilities depended, in part, on the CMO's visibility into the 
business operations of all components of the department, including the 
military departments, as well as the ability to identify and execute 
DOD-wide business reforms.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \24\ GAO, Defense Business Operations: DOD Should Take Steps to 
Fully Institutionalize the Chief Management Officer Position, GAO-19-
199 (Washington, DC: March 14, 2019).
    \25\ Pub. L. No. 115-232, Sec.  921 (2018).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    We found that DOD leadership had not fully determined how the CMO 
would exercise its authority to direct the secretaries of the military 
departments and the heads of all other elements of DOD on matters for 
which the CMO had responsibility. We identified instances in which the 
lack of a determination as to how the CMO was to direct the business-
related activities of the military departments led to questions about 
respective roles and authorities of the CMO. In one case, officials 
from the military departments questioned the CMO's authority to make 
binding decisions; in another, the military departments sought to 
pursue reform activities without CMO involvement and oversight.
    We also identified instances in which the CMO's efforts to 
implement reforms were hampered by a lack of resources. We reported 
that DOD had established reform teams led by senior officials 
throughout the department charged with identifying and implementing 
initiatives to consolidate the department's business operations. \26\ 
However, the Office of the CMO did not request funding for reform team 
initiatives, in part because officials had initially planned to use 
available funding from the savings generated by the initiatives to fund 
the development and implementation of other initiatives. Office of the 
CMO officials later recognized the need for the initiatives to obtain 
funding separate from any savings realized, but had not developed an 
approach to do so. As a result, reform teams reported lacking the 
funding needed to implement some of their initiatives.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \26\ GAO, Defense Management: DOD Needs to Implement Statutory 
Requirements and Identify Resources for Its Cross-Functional Reform 
Teams, GAO-19-165 (Washington, DC: January 17, 2019).

    21. Senator Manchin. Ms. Field, does GAO believe the Department's, 
and specifically multiple Secretaries of Defense, failure to supply a 
Department Charter to the position of CMO confirming its authority 
contributed to the assessments outlined in the Defense Business Board 
Independent Assessment of the CMO?
    Ms. Field. Yes, the lack of a chartering directive directly 
contributed to the department's inability to successfully implement the 
CMO position. In March 2019, we reported that the absence of a 
chartering document to codify the CMO's authorities and 
responsibilities and specify how those are to be operationalized, would 
raise continued questions about the extent of the CMO's authority and 
responsibility, and would prevent a shared understanding across the 
department of the CMO's role. We concluded that guidance that fully 
encompasses all CMO authorities and responsibilities and explains how 
they are to be operationalized could help institutionalize and sustain 
the position beyond the tenure of the current acting CMO. We 
recommended that DOD codify the CMO's authorities and how they are to 
be operationalized in formal department-wide guidance. DOD concurred 
with this recommendation, but did not implement it, and subsequently 
the CMO position was disestablished by the William M. (Mac) Thornberry 
NDAA for fiscal year 2021.

    22. Senator Manchin. Ms. Field, does GAO believe the current 
delineation of business modernization, cost assessment, and cost 
efficiency responsibilities are held by offices within the Department 
at a sufficient seniority level, and does GAO believe those duties are 
effectively coordinated within the Department?
    Ms. Field. It is too soon to tell whether the current delineation 
of DOD's business operations responsibilities is effective in driving 
sustained and meaningful business transformation.
    With the disestablishment of the CMO in January 2021, the Deputy 
Secretary of Defense reestablished the Director of Administration and 
Management (DA&M), who was subsequently designated the department's 
Performance Improvement Officer (PIO). The Deputy Secretary also 
transferred a number of former CMO responsibilities to DA&M and other 
organizations throughout the department, including the Under Secretary 
of Defense (Comptroller) and the Chief Information Officer. Table 1 
shows selected responsibilities for each of these officials as 
prescribed in the Deputy Secretary of Defense's guidance.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    Department of Defense official                                   Responsibility
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Director of Administration and Management/ Performance Improvement                               Defense reform
 Officer                                                                                Performance improvement
                                                                                Pentagon Reservation management
                                                                                           Defense-wide support
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Under Secretary of Defense (Comptroller)                                               Defense business systems
 
                                                                       Maintain Financial Improvement and Audit
                                                                                               Remediation Plan
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chief Information Officer                                                              Defense business systems
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: GAO

    DOD is in the process of collecting data and will be reporting on 
the results of its new coordination efforts as part of the fiscal year 
2025 and 2026 budget cycles. Specifically, ODA&M partnered with the 
Under Secretary of Defense (Comptroller) and the Cost Assessment and 
Performance Evaluation office to issue revisions to department's 
Integrated Program and Budget Guidance for fiscal year 2024-2028 in 
order to capture additional information on reform efforts. Further, 
ODA&M officials told GAO that they continue to engage with Under 
Secretary of Defense (Comptroller) and Cost Assessment and Performance 
Evaluation to identify opportunities for performance improvement 
initiatives in the department. According to those officials, full 
integration of the approach into the Planning, Programming, Budgeting, 
and Execution process will likely not occur until the fiscal year 2026 
budget cycle, which will be initiated in early 2024.
                   national defense authorization act
    23. Senator Manchin. Ms. Field, does GAO endorse or support section 
902 of S. 2226, the National Defense Authorization Act, and does this 
include endorsing or supporting this section's inclusion through the 
NDAA conference process and within the final version of the Fiscal Year 
2024 NDAA?
    Ms. Field. While this is a policy decision for the Congress to 
make, our work has demonstrated that DOD would benefit from a fully 
empowered, senior leader who is dedicated to driving meaningful and 
sustainable enterprise-wide business reform. This need could be filled 
through different organizational constructs as long as these conditions 
are met and the position is appropriately resourced.
    We recognize that DOD has recently undertaken a significant 
reorganization, pursuant to statutory direction associated with 
disestablishment of the CMO, and reassigned the roles and 
responsibilities of the position to other offices. DOD has also 
established and is also utilizing different governance structures to 
help manage departmental reform. Among other things, after the CMO was 
disestablished, DOD implemented a new approach to business reform 
focusing on a bottom-up approach that emphasizes DOD organizations' 
responsibility to initiate and implement business reforms. As recently 
as August 2023, the Deputy Secretary of Defense approved a list of 
crosscutting initiatives and DOD established a new senior governance 
structure for its business management and reform efforts. While DOD has 
made some progress laying the groundwork for collecting data associated 
with its business reforms under its new structure, it is too soon to 
determine if it will be successful. GAO will be reporting on DOD's 
initial efforts in implementing this new structure in the Fall 2023, 
and will continue to monitor its progress moving forward.

    24. Senator Manchin. Mr. Roark, does the DOD Office of Inspector 
General endorse or support section 902 of S. 2226, the National Defense 
Authorization Act (NDAA), and does this include endorsing or supporting 
this section's inclusion through the NDAA conference process and within 
the final version of the Fiscal Year 2024 NDAA?
    Mr. Roark. The DOD OIG does not endorse or support pending 
legislation.

    25. Senator Manchin. Mr. Mosher, does the Congressional Budget 
Office endorse or support section 902 of S. 2226, the National Defense 
Authorization Act (NDAA), and does this include endorsing or supporting 
this section's inclusion through the NDAA conference process and within 
the final version of the Fiscal Year 2024 NDAA?
    Mr. Mosher. CBO's role is to provide objective, nonpartisan 
information to support the budget process and to help the Congress make 
effective budget and economic policy. The agency does not make policy 
recommendations or take positions on legislation.
                               __________
              Questions Submitted by Senator Dan Sullivan
                         military compensation
    26. Senator Sullivan. Mr. Mosher, I and other Senators serving on 
the Senate Armed Services Committee (SASC) have repeatedly discussed 
the military's recruiting challenges with DOD officials during hearings 
this year. In fact we had an entire hearing on the subject in May, in 
which we heard from senior representatives from each branch. DOD 
officials have provided many reasons for the recruiting crisis from 
lack of interest and fitness among young people to their fear of 
leaving home and perception that military service puts life on hold. 
However, one reason most timely and fitting to your appearance here 
today is the belief that in good economic times military recruiting 
suffers as more economic opportunities are available. However, as you 
know Mr. Mosher, the military offers an attractive compensation plan 
that not only includes a competitive salary but medical and life 
insurance, housing allowances, and extensive paid leave. In your 
opinion, what could the DOD do to make the current military 
compensation plan more understandable to potential recruiting pools?
    Mr. Mosher. Although military personnel are well compensated when 
compared with their peers in the civilian sector, the structure of 
DOD's compensation package is complicated. Its mix of cash, noncash, 
and deferred compensation (which includes veterans' benefits) differs 
significantly from the more straightforward wages or salaries that 
potential recruits or servicemembers who are contemplating reenlistment 
might use for comparison. Thus, one concern is that prospective and 
current members of the military may undervalue the military 
compensation package. The armed services provide military personnel 
with an accounting of the value of their compensation each year, but it 
is not clear how well that information is understood or how it informs 
members' decisions about reenlisting.
    CBO has not specifically examined ways to make the current military 
compensation package more easily understood to potential recruits. In 
its broader analysis of military compensation, however, the agency has 
presented options for changing aspects of the current compensation 
system, such as relying more on cash bonuses, that could improve 
understanding.\2\ In a related effort undertaken at the request of the 
Senate Armed Services Committee, CBO is developing an infographic that 
will illustrate, in part, how military compensation compares with 
compensation in the private sector.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \2\ See, for example, Congressional Budget Office, Approaches to 
Changing Military Compensation (January 2020), www.cbo.gov/publication/
55648.

    27. Senator Sullivan. Mr. Mosher, in what ways could the DOD 
improve the military compensation plan to make it more attractive?
    Mr. Mosher. An analysis by CBO has found that compared with their 
peers in the civilian sector, military personnel are well 
compensated.\3\ On average, enlisted personnel receive cash 
compensation that is higher than that received by about 90 percent of 
civilians of the same age and education level (which surpasses DOD's 
goal that cash compensation meet or exceed the 70th percentile of 
civilian earnings). Moreover, the difference between military and 
civilian compensation is greater than that comparison suggests because 
military compensation includes noncash benefits, such as health care, 
that civilians must purchase using their cash compensation. And after 
leaving the service, military members may be eligible for deferred 
benefits from the Department of Veterans Affairs, such as the GI Bill, 
health care, and compensation for medical conditions incurred during 
their service.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \3\ Ibid.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    One way to make the military compensation package more attractive 
may be to make it easier to compare with compensation in the private 
sector (as discussed in CBO's response to the previous question). 
Another solution may be to change the relative mix of cash, noncash, 
and deferred compensation to make the overall package more attractive 
to potential recruits and service members contemplating reenlistment.
    Servicemembers receive a larger share of their overall compensation 
in the form of noncash and deferred benefits than do most people 
employed in the private sector. And evidence suggests that many service 
members greatly underestimate the full value of those deferred 
benefits. In addition, because cash can give people more control over 
their spending choices, current and prospective service members may 
value cash compensation more than noncash compensation. Increasing the 
share of military compensation that cash pay represents could improve 
efforts to attract and retain military personnel--particularly younger 
people. (Research has shown that senior military personnel tend to 
value deferred compensation in the form of retiree benefits more than 
their younger colleagues do.)
    CBO recently examined several ways that DOD could change the 
structure of military compensation to reduce or slow the growth of 
spending while still attracting and retaining a high-quality force.\4\ 
Some changes could also help DOD fill needed positions and make the 
compensation package more appealing. One approach would emphasize cash 
bonuses instead of other elements of compensation--including increases 
in basic pay--to give DOD more flexibility to respond to recruiting 
challenges and to increase enrollment in undersubscribed career fields, 
such as aircraft maintenance or cybersecurity. A second approach would 
introduce a salary system in which military personnel would pay for 
housing, food, and health care for their families, like civilians do. 
Such a system would give policymakers, service members, and--perhaps 
most importantly--potential recruits a more complete view of the amount 
of cash pay that military personnel can earn.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \4\ Congressional Budget Office, Approaches to Changing Military 
Compensation (January 2020), www.cbo.gov/publication/55648.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Under one scenario in a new salary system, cash pay could be higher 
for junior enlisted service members who are single, particularly young 
members living in barracks. Raising their cash pay would encourage 
those members to stay in the military longer, in part because it would 
compensate them for the hardship of residing in barracks (one of the 
least attractive aspects of military life, according to surveys). Some 
service members might be worse off, however, and transitioning to a new 
salary system would be complicated. DOD's most recent comprehensive 
review of military compensation examined some of the advantages and 
disadvantages of a salary system but did not recommend implementing 
such a system.\5\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \5\ Department of Defense, Report of the Thirteenth Quadrennial 
Review of Military Compensation, Volume I: Main Report (December 2020), 
www.tinyurl.com/28jammjb20 (PDF).

          special pay to attract dod civilian first responders
    28. Senator Sullivan. Ms. Field, several DOD installations in my 
State have historically had trouble attracting DOD civilians to fill 
first responder positions, particularly firefighters. Some of these 
reasons have included the remoteness of duty locations, cost of living, 
availability and affordability of housing, high cost of moving 
expenses, late declinations by applicants, and physical relocation to 
Alaska. However, more recently Fort Greely and Fort Wainwright have 
begun applying special pays to attract and retain DOD civilians in key 
first responder positions, which so far seems to be working. What 
hiring tools does the DOD currently have to hire DOD civilians into 
hard to fill positions?
    Ms. Field. While we have not evaluated the full range of hiring 
tools currently available to DOD to hire civilians into hard-to-fill 
positions, we have previously reviewed the department's use of specific 
hiring authorities to hire science, technology, engineering, and 
mathematics (STEM) personnel at the defense laboratories; the 
availability of support services to personnel in remote locations; and 
suicide prevention efforts at remote locations outside the contiguous 
United States. \27\ Our 2018 review of DOD's use of hiring authorities 
found that certain factors--such as the high demand for science and 
technology workers, competition with ]the private sector, the 
requirement for U.S. citizenship, and the need for security clearances, 
among other things--resulted in hiring challenges and prompted concern 
about the outlook for a workforce that is vital to the department's 
mission. \28\ To address some of those concerns, the Senate Armed 
Services Committee noted that it had taken steps to provide the defense 
laboratories with certain flexibilities from Federal rules and 
regulations that had the potential to hinder the laboratories' ability 
to carry out their critical missions. Those flexibilities included 
greater pay-setting authority and the ability to hire qualified 
candidates who meet certain criteria using direct hire. \29\ Laboratory 
officials we surveyed identified certain direct hiring authorities as 
both helpful in hiring STEM personnel and doing so in a timely manner. 
Laboratory officials also told us, however, that despite the 
availability of the hiring authorities, challenges to hiringqualified 
candidates remained.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \27\ GAO, DOD Personnel: Further Actions Needed to Strengthen 
Oversight and Coordination of Defense Laboratories Hiring Efforts, GAO-
18-417 (Washington, DC: May 30, 2018); Military Installations: DOD 
Should Consider Various Support Services when Designating Sites as 
Remote or Isolated, GAO-21-276 (Washington, DC: Jul. 29, 2021); and 
Suicide Prevention: DOD Should Enhance Oversight, Staffing, Guidance, 
and Training Affecting Certain Remote Installations, GAO-22-105108 
(Washington, DC: Apr. 28, 2022).
    \28\ GAO-18-417.
    \29\ These authorities are intended to expedite the hiring process 
and facilitate efforts to compete with the private sector.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    In 2021, we reported on challenges with obtaining support services 
at remote installations in the United States. \30\ While this report 
did not specifically cover first responders, remote installation 
officials identified challenges in general with filling and retaining 
civilian employees. For example, officials at the four installations 
included in our review stated that they gauge the interests of service 
members in specific morale, welfare, and recreation (MWR) programs and 
work with regional and service-level MWR officials to maximize the 
programs that the installation is able to offer. However, officials 
also stated that their ability to provide MWR services is negatively 
affected by factors such as low pay, commute time, and cost of living 
that impact their ability to fill and retain civilian employees at 
installations in remote or isolated areas. For example, officials at 
Clear Air Force Station, Alaska, told us that it is difficult to find 
civilian workers to support the food and beverage services on the 
installation because of low salaries, such as $11 an hour, and the 
commute from the nearest community, which is about 25 miles from the 
installation. In addition, officials from two of the four installations 
and respondents to our survey identified the lack of employment 
opportunities for their spouses as a concern. For example, at Marine 
Corps Mountain Warfare Training Center, Bridgeport, California, service 
members have to choose between living in family housing or in 
communities located another 30 miles from the installation so that 
their spouses can find employment. If they live in family housing, both 
the service member and the spouse face total commutes of over an hour a 
day; the service members face a commute of over 2 hours a day if they 
live in the nearest community.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \30\ GAO-21-276.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Additionally, in April 2022, we reviewed the department's suicide 
prevention policies, programs and activities for service members and 
dependents, including those assigned to remote locations outside the 
contiguous United States. \31\ We found that, while the department had 
taken steps to integrate suicide prevention into primary care, it 
experienced challenges in fully staffing the primary care behavioral 
health positions. According to Defense Health Agency (DHA) officials, 
these challenges included high demand for behavioral health providers, 
difficulties in recruiting behavioral health personnel that want to 
work in a primary care setting, undesirable locations, and prolonged 
hiring and on-boarding processes. However, while DHA officials were 
aware of the challenges, the agency had not addressed the shortages.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \31\ GAO-22-105108.

    29. Senator Sullivan. Ms. Field, what improvements would you like 
to see in the previously mentioned area?
    Ms. Field. As noted, we have not evaluated the full range of hiring 
tools available to DOD to hire civilians into hard-to-fill positions. 
However, the previously discussed reviews of hiring at the defense 
laboratories, support services at remote installations, and the 
department's suicide prevention efforts at remote installations outside 
the contiguous United States identified steps the department could take 
to be better positioned to address associated personnel challenges. 
\32\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \32\ GAO-18-417; GAO-21-276; and GAO-22-105108.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    For example, our 2018 review of the defense laboratories' use of 
hiring authorities found that the department needed to strengthen the 
oversight and coordination of its efforts to hire science, technology, 
engineering, and mathematics personnel at the defense laboratories. 
\33\ As a result, we recommended that the department obtain and monitor 
defense laboratory hiring data to improve oversight, and develop 
performance measures for evaluating the effectiveness of the 
laboratories' hiring. \34\ While DOD has since taken the necessary 
actions to address those recommendations, our findings and 
recommendations underscore the need for and importance of establishing 
proper oversight mechanisms, including obtaining and monitoring 
relevant data on hiring and developing performance measures, to better 
understand the use and efficacy of any hiring authorities.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \33\ GAO-18-417.
    \34\ In GAO-18-417, we also recommended that DOD establish 
timeframes to guide hiring authority approval and implementation. DOD 
has implemented this recommendation.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    During our 2021 review of support services at remote installations, 
we recommended, among other things, that the Secretary of Defense, in 
collaboration with the Secretaries of the military departments and the 
Commandant of the Marine Corps, should systematically assess the risks 
associated with not having needed support services for service members 
and their dependents stationed in remote or isolated areas and 
subsequently develop strategies to better meet those needs as 
appropriate. \35\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \35\ GAO-21-276.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Our 2022 review of the department's suicide prevention efforts 
recommended that DOD develop a strategy to address the previously noted 
primary care behavioral health provider staffing shortages, including 
those at remote installations. \36\ Having such a plan is key to 
resolving shortages. In response to this recommendation, DOD provided 
us with standardized contract language for primary care behavioral 
health personnel and stated that it expects this language will improve 
recruitment and retention of these personnel by including an accurate 
position description and recommending the inclusion of certain 
incentives in the contract. However, to fully implement this 
recommendation, DOD should provide documentation that it has developed 
a strategy that comprehensively addresses challenges staffing those 
personnel. By developing such a strategy, DOD can help ensure the 
military services' ability to provide more comprehensive and effective 
behavioral health care to service members and dependents through 
primary care resources.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \36\ GAO-22-105108.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    We also have direction from the Joint Explanatory Statement 
accompanying the NDAA for Fiscal Year 2023 that we assess civilian 
support at remote locations and provide a report. Specifically, the 
Joint Explanatory Statement directs GAO to assess 1) the average number 
of vacancies for civilian support services positions at remote or 
isolated military installations in comparison to vacancies for such 
positions at other military installations, and 2) the average number of 
days required to fill such a vacancy at a remote and isolated military 
installation in comparison to filling a vacancy of a position with the 
same duties at such other installations.

                              [all]