[Senate Hearing 118-643]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]




                                                        S. Hrg. 118-643


                    ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE AND HOUSING:
                        EXPLORING PROMISE AND PERIL

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               before the

                            SUBCOMMITTEE ON
           HOUSING, TRANSPORTATION, AND COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT

                                 of the

                              COMMITTEE ON
                   BANKING,HOUSING,AND URBAN AFFAIRS
                          UNITED STATES SENATE

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                             SECOND SESSION

                                   ON

             EXAMINING ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE AND HOUSING

                               __________


                            JANUARY 31, 2024

                               __________


  Printed for the use of the Committee on Banking, Housing, and Urban 
                                Affairs





                  [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]





                Available at: https: //www.govinfo.gov /

                               ______
                                 

                 U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE

60-366 PDF                WASHINGTON : 2026









            COMMITTEE ON BANKING, HOUSING, AND URBAN AFFAIRS

                       SHERROD BROWN, Ohio, Chair

JACK REED, Rhode Island              TIM SCOTT, South Carolina
ROBERT MENENDEZ, New Jersey          MIKE CRAPO, Idaho
JON TESTER, Montana                  MIKE ROUNDS, South Dakota
MARK R. WARNER, Virginia             THOM TILLIS, North Carolina
ELIZABETH WARREN, Massachusetts      JOHN KENNEDY, Louisiana
CHRIS VAN HOLLEN, Maryland           BILL HAGERTY, Tennessee
CATHERINE CORTEZ MASTO, Nevada       CYNTHIA M. LUMMIS, Wyoming
TINA SMITH, Minnesota                J.D. VANCE, Ohio
RAPHAEL G. WARNOCK, Georgia          KATIE BOYD BRITT, Alabama
JOHN FETTERMAN, Pennsylvania         KEVIN CRAMER, North Dakota
LAPHONZA R. BUTLER, California       STEVE DAINES, Montana

                     Laura Swanson, Staff Director

               Lila Nieves-Lee, Republican Staff Director

                       Elisha Tuku, Chief Counsel

                  Amber Beck, Republican Chief Counsel

                      Cameron Ricker, Chief Clerk

                      Shelvin Simmons, IT Director

                       Pat Lally, Assistant Clerk

                                 ______


   Subcommittee on Housing, Transportation, and Community Development

                      TINA SMITH, Minnesota, Chair

               CYNTHIA M. LUMMIS, Wyoming, Ranking Member

JACK REED, Rhode Island              MIKE CRAPO, Idaho
ROBERT MENENDEZ, New Jersey          MIKE ROUNDS, South Dakota
JON TESTER, Montana                  JOHN KENNEDY, Louisiana
CATHERINE CORTEZ MASTO, Nevada       BILL HAGERTY, Tennessee
KYRSTEN SINEMA, Arizona              J.D. VANCE, Ohio
RAPHAEL G. WARNOCK, Georgia          KATIE BOYD BRITT, Alabama
JOHN FETTERMAN, Pennsylvania

                Tim Everett, Subcommittee Staff Director

        Kelsey Pristach, Republican Subcommittee Staff Director


                                  (ii)










                            C O N T E N T S

                              ----------                              

                      WEDNESDAY, JANUARY 31, 2024

                                                                   Page

Opening statement of Chair Smith.................................     1
        Prepared statement.......................................    23

Opening statements, comments, or prepared statements of:

Senator Lummis...................................................     3

                               WITNESSES

Lisa Rice, President and Chief Executive Officer, National Fair 
  Housing Alliance...............................................     5
    Prepared statement...........................................    25
    Responses to written questions of:
        Chair Smith..............................................    55
        Senator Warnock..........................................    55
Vanessa Perry, Interim Dean and Professor, The George Washington 
  University School of Business; Nonresident Fellow, Housing 
  Finance Policy Center, Urban Institute.........................     6
    Prepared statement...........................................    46
    Responses to written questions of:
        Chair Smith..............................................    55
        Senator Warnock..........................................    60
Nicholas Schmidt, Partner and Artificial Intelligence Practice 
  Leader, BLDS; Founder and CTO, SolasAI.........................     7
    Prepared statement...........................................    47
    Responses to written questions of:
        Chair Smith..............................................    61
        Senator Warnock..........................................    63

              Additional Material Supplied for the Record

Letter submitted by ACU..........................................    68
Concept Paper submitted by AI....................................    71
Letter submitted by the Center for AI and Digital Policy.........    88
Letter submitted by Family Housing Fund..........................    94
Letter submitted by Urban Institute..............................    97
Letter submitted by NMHC/NAA.....................................   160
``To Err Is Automated: Have Technological Advances in the 
  Mortgage Market Increased Opportunities for Black 
  Homeownership?'' Working Paper.................................   163
Letter submitted by Zillow.......................................   185

                                 (iii)








 
                    ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE AND HOUSING:
                        EXPLORING PROMISE AND PERIL

                              ----------                              


                      WEDNESDAY, JANUARY 31, 2024

                               U.S. Senate,
  Committee on Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs,
    Subcommittee on Housing, Transportation, and Community 
                                               Development,
                                                    Washington, DC.
    The Subcommittee met at 10:03 a.m., in room SD-538, Dirksen 
Senate Office Building, Hon. Tina Smith, Chair of the 
Subcommittee, presiding.

             OPENING STATEMENT OF CHAIR TINA SMITH

    Chair Smith. Good morning. The Subcommittee on Housing, 
Transportation, and Community Development will come to order. 
Today's hearing will focus on both the promise and the threats 
that artificial intelligence poses in the housing sector, and 
I'm very much looking forward to our witness' testimony and to 
this conversation.
    I want to thank Ranking Member Lummis and her staff for 
your ongoing bipartisan work as we put together this hearing. 
We both share, I believe, a deep interest in how we can develop 
Federal policy that supports innovation, and expands 
opportunity for everyone to have a safe, decent, affordable 
place to live. And one of the most consequential innovations in 
recent years is artificial intelligence.
    Leader Schumer, Senator Rounds, Senator Young, and Senator 
Heinrich are leading a bipartisan effort to explore the 
impacts, opportunities, and threats that AI poses. And they 
have asked Senate committees to engage in our areas of 
expertise, which leads us to this Committee hearing today, 
examining what AI means for housing.
    So without a safe, decent, affordable place to live, 
nothing in your life works. Not your job, your family, your 
education, your health. So, a foundation question is how AI can 
help or hinder this goal. We know that some aspects of 
artificial intelligence have been around for a long time, and 
we also know that major advances are fueling the use of AI in 
finance and housing in ways that we need to understand.
    Consumers find AI when they encounter chatbots, when they 
shop online, or digital helpers that seem to be ubiquitous. And 
AI plays a role when a prospective tenant is looking to rent an 
apartment, or a renter submits a maintenance request to a 
management company, or a family tries to qualify for a home 
loan, or when a person experiencing homelessness is connected 
to services. These are powerful tools that hold great potential 
to cut costs and to target services, to reduce wait times, and 
to even reduce bias.
    But they also have the potential to bake in existing 
inequities and to reduce accountability and even limit 
opportunity. Today, AI is being used actively in every part of 
the housing continuum, from emergency homelessness services to 
mortgage financing. And as I was preparing for this hearing, I 
found endless applications.
    AI is being deployed, for example, to help connect people 
experiencing homelessness with health and housing resources. AI 
is helping to forecast more precisely and accurately where 
families are at risk of eviction so that we can better target 
assistance. Academics and advocates are using AI and machine 
learning to help understand, and map the country's zoning laws 
and codes, spanning 30,000 different localities.
    And these insights could help us to understand the dense 
and complicated rules that govern where, and how, and what 
types of housing are being built so that we can make better 
decisions about how to boost housing supply and lower costs. So 
there are many opportunities, and there are also some very real 
concerns about the threats that AI poses.
    In Minnesota, some landlords are reportedly using AI-
generated tenant-screening reports that include incorrect and 
sometimes illegal or off-limits information. The result, it's 
even harder for people to find a place to rent in some 
circumstances, and they may never know why they were declined 
or be able to correct the record. For landlords, maybe it's 
just easier to move on to the next applicant rather than 
consider additional information, another example of how AI used 
in a bad way can be quite harmful.
    There's a lawsuit in Minnesota right now against a law firm 
that has allegedly automated the process of filing evictions 
for landlords. In 1 month, the firm filed 400 eviction 
complaints. These eviction filings lacked much detail about why 
the eviction was happening, and seemed to routinely lack basic 
information about lease terms or to include significant errors 
around lease states, and rental amounts, and payment 
information.
    So the fact that a firm allegedly leaned on AI to generate 
a large number of eviction filings with false information, 
apparently without any meaningful review by an attorney, that's 
a big problem. Not only is the eviction illegal, but that 
eviction will live on in public records and hurt the tenant 
into the future.
    AI is also increasingly part of how people buy homes. It is 
used in credit scoring models and automated valuation models 
which determine the value of a home. How AI is deployed has 
major implications for a person's credit scores, their mortgage 
rates, and whether home ownership and wealth building is even 
within reach.
    We know that we have historic, systemic challenges with 
fairness and equity in this country. My own hometown of 
Minneapolis, has some of the greatest disparities in home 
ownership between Black and White families of anywhere in the 
country. So we need to carefully explore whether AI is 
extending and reinforcing these biases, and how it has the 
potential to correct them.
    Our excellent witnesses here today have an unenviable task 
in your opening statements to ground us in both these 
opportunities and threats in AI and housing in 5 minutes. I 
look forward to hearing from you, and I also look very much 
forward to the questions from my colleagues as we follow-up 
after your testimony.
    With any innovation there are both opportunities and 
challenges that we need to balance, and our job is to think 
about these complex issues so that we can develop the best 
public policy. So I very much look forward to this 
conversation, and I now turn to Senator Lummis for her opening 
statement.

         OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR CYNTHIA M. LUMMIS

    Senator Lummis. Well, thank you Madam Chair, and thanks to 
our witnesses for being here today.
    Yesterday, I was on an airplane sitting next to a woman who 
was flying into D.C. so the health care business could have 
their first workshop on AI and health care in some public 
health fields, and how to define AI and use guidelines in a way 
that will make the sideboards between existing technology and 
AI more clear.
    You are way ahead of the game that health care was. And Ms. 
Rice, it's so nice to see you again because you are the one who 
came to my office and explained to me how AI can be used in a 
nefarious way. And before that, I never even would've 
considered that AI could be used in a way that reinforces bad 
behavior, and so I'm so pleased to see you here today. And all 
of you, thank you for coming. So now we're going to explore the 
range of promises and perils that artificial intelligence can 
offer to housing in the United States.
    So there are many potential benefits from the use of AI in 
housing. Incorporating more information into housing decisions 
might expand access to credit. Automated tools may expedite the 
process of approving new housing developments. In rural areas, 
AI can ease the appraisals process and accelerate supply 
chains. Now, I'm the broken record on the Banking Committee for 
my support establishing a regulatory framework for digital 
assets. But I see some parallels where we have a new technology 
rapidly changing in a space, and a need for thoughtful 
consideration of how existing regulations may apply.
    So from today's hearing, I'd like to better understand what 
parts of AI fit in today's regulatory framework and what needs 
to evolve. We've already seen straying into some areas that 
create perils because they're poorly thought out from the 
regulatory aspect.
    This summer, in response to the potential use of AI when 
providing financial services to customers, the Securities and 
Exchange Commission proposed a rule called ``conflicts of 
interest'' in predictive data analysis. It was an overreaching 
rule, and the scope got into even using basic spreadsheets as 
covered technology. So what that did was put unneeded burdens 
on a new use of an old technology.
    So we need rules and regulations governing AI to be scoped 
appropriately, not using it as an excuse to force decades-old 
technology to comply with a new and unnecessary set of 
impractical regulations. So I'm delighted to see you here to 
help us parse the difference. And this is a really qualified 
panel, so this should be a really informative morning.
    Concerns about AI merit discussion. We need a financial 
system that gives families access to building wealth and create 
strong communities through home ownership. Credit decisions 
should be based on who can repay not on the color of their skin 
or the community they call home. We should recognize the risk 
that AI can, if not trained on complete data and within safe 
guards, reinforce bias and discrimination. But aggressive 
action prohibiting innovative AI use is perilous, and we need 
to find that balance.
    Today's hearing presents an opportunity to explore the 
application of AI within the housing space, and I look forward 
to hearing the testimonies of our witnesses. I'm optimistic 
about the prospect of harnessing AI to uplift and expand the 
American housing experience. So let's leverage innovation to 
improve access to housing in Wyoming and all over the United 
States. Thank you for being here. Thank you, Madam Chair.
    Chair Smith. Thank you so much, Senator Lummis. And I also 
am just really grateful that Senator Rounds is here. I know 
that you have done a lot of work in this space across the board 
and your leadership of that bipartisan task force that you and 
Senator Schumer are leading. So thank you very much. I'm glad 
you're here. Thank you.
    So we have three witnesses with us today. I'll introduce 
each of them. Dr. Vanessa Perry is interim dean and professor 
at the George Washington University School of Business and 
nonresident fellow at the Urban Institute's Housing Finance 
Policy Center. Dr. Perry has extensive experience in the use of 
AI in mortgage finance and home ownership.
    She previously held positions at the Department of Housing 
and Urban Development, the Consumer Finance Protection Bureau, 
and Freddie Mac. Dr. Perry earned her Ph.D. from the University 
of North Carolina at Chapel Hill and an MBA from Washington 
University in St. Louis.
    Ms. Lisa Rice is the president and CEO of the National Fair 
Housing Alliance. Ms. Rice leads the Alliance's work on 
eliminating housing discrimination, and addressing the evolving 
role of artificial intelligence in housing. She has provided 
expert testimony to the Banking and Housing Committee, the 
bipartisan Senate AI Forum, and the House Financial Services 
Committee. Ms. Rice previously served as a CEO of the Toledo 
Fair Housing Center and the Northwest Ohio Development Agency.
    And we have Nick Schmidt with us today, who is a partner 
and artificial intelligence practice leader at BLDS, and the 
founder and CTO of SolasAI--did I say that correctly? Close 
enough, he says. BLDS is a consulting firm that specializes in 
statistics and economics.
    Mr. Schmidt's work focuses on algorithmic fairness, 
explainable AI, and model governance practices. He founded 
SolasAI, a compliance-focused AI platform that works to 
identify and mitigate bias in algorithmic decision making. He 
earned his MBA from the University of Chicago's Booth School of 
Business.
    We'll begin with Ms. Rice, and just go down the line. You 
each have 5 minutes for your opening statements, and each of 
you have a clock in front of you which will count down the 
time. And your full written statement will be made a part of 
the record. Ms. Rice, you can begin.

STATEMENT OF LISA RICE, PRESIDENT AND CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER, 
                 NATIONAL FAIR HOUSING ALLIANCE

    Ms. Rice. Chairwoman Smith, Ranking Member Lummis, and 
other distinguished Members of the Senate Subcommittee on 
Housing, Transportation, and Community Development, thank you 
for the opportunity to testify during this hearing on 
artificial intelligence.
    The National Fair Housing Alliance works to eliminate all 
forms of housing and lending discrimination, and ensure equal 
opportunities for all people. We are the trade association for 
over 170 Fair housing organizations throughout the U.S. and its 
territories. We know that technology is the new civil and human 
rights frontier. That is why we are committed to creating 
automated systems that are fair, explainable, and trustworthy.
    It is why we also create and promote policies, frameworks, 
and other tools to advance responsible AI principles. 
Artificial intelligence holds great promise for improving 
systems, democratizing opportunities, lowering costs, and 
increasing productivity. Yet it also holds great dangers for 
perpetuating bias, spreading misinformation, excluding people 
from necessary services, and generating other harms.
    AI is used extensively in the housing and financial 
sectors, including in credit scoring, tenant screening, 
automated underwriting risk-based pricing, dynamic rental, 
pricing marketing, and many other areas. All these processes 
can manifest bias and extensive harm to consumers, communities, 
and our economy. Large language models like ChatGPT can also 
present challenges like data privacy, security bias, and 
accuracy concerns.
    Through our work, we have uncovered discrimination in all 
these systems. For example, our investigation against a major 
insurance company in which we examined a third-party scoring 
system used by the insurer, showed the system was overcharging 
Black consumers at rates that exceeded their commensurate level 
of risk. Our findings in that case are similar to findings by 
researchers at Berkeley that found algorithmic pricing models 
discriminate against Black and Latino consumers by overcharging 
them to the tune of $765 million per year.
    Consumers who live in communities with few mainstream 
banks, like rural areas and communities of color, can often be 
negatively impacted by AI systems that rely heavily on data 
contained in the credit reporting agencies. For example, the 
CFPB reports that consumers in southern rural areas of the U.S. 
disproportionately have lower credit scores because, in part, 
they have lower access to physical and online mainstream 
financial services and products.
    While AI can present serious threats, it can also be used 
for good. For example, NFHA uses AI tools to conduct research 
that is helping expand credit and housing opportunities for 
underserved groups and communities. Just this month, we 
released important research completed in conjunction with 
FairPlay AI, documenting a novel approach for de-biasing 
algorithmic models that simultaneously optimizes for high 
quality model performance.
    Most previous research on fairness techniques have shown a 
tradeoff lower moderate, a model accuracy for increased 
fairness. The novel approach at the center of our research, 
which is based on distribution matching, presents the ability 
to optimize models for both fairness and accuracy.
    In addition to de-biasing systems, AI can be used to detect 
discrimination risks, build systems that can expand access to 
credit, provide financial services to consumers more 
efficiently, optimize privacy, identify barriers to fair and 
affordable housing and zoning ordinances, and other positive 
activities.
    To ensure AI can be optimized for good, Congress must first 
do everything possible to ensure Federal agencies, researchers, 
and NGO's can apply existing laws and standards to the use of 
automated systems. Congress must ensure agencies have 
sufficient resources to tackle the issues, and Congress must 
pass legislation that both supports innovation and protects our 
society to ensure the U.S. can continue to lead the world in 
the development of the responsible AI. Thank you.
    Chair Smith. Thank you very much. Dr. Perry.

  STATEMENT OF VANESSA PERRY, INTERIM DEAN AND PROFESSOR, THE 
 GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY SCHOOL OF BUSINESS; NONRESIDENT 
     FELLOW, HOUSING FINANCE POLICY CENTER, URBAN INSTITUTE

    Ms. Perry. Thank you. Good morning. My name is Vanessa 
Perry. I'm a professor and interim dean at the George 
Washington University School of Business, and a nonresident 
fellow at the Housing Finance Policy Center at the Urban 
Institute focusing on consumers housing and financial markets. 
I want to thank Chairwoman Smith and Ranking Member Lummis for 
inviting me to testify on the impact of artificial 
intelligence, which is being employed increasingly throughout 
the housing and mortgage industry.
    Based on my three decades of research in this field, 
regulation of AI warrants urgent attention. While these models 
can enhance efficiency, they can have unintended impacts on 
fairness and equity. Compared to traditional models, AI relies 
on a wider range of data inputs and more complex combinations 
thereof.
    Although intricate multivariate algorithms have been used 
in the mortgage industry for years, AI models have the 
potential to incorporate new data sources due to their 
complexity. It is difficult, but not impossible for anyone 
other than AI developers to scrutinize and monitor their 
inputs.
    AI is already widespread in the mortgage market. AI digital 
marketing models target prospective home buyers, and 
communications with customers are intermediated by AI chatbots. 
Credit scoring companies and mortgage underwriting systems use 
AI to evaluate credit risk. AI models are used for property 
valuation, loan servicing, and loss mitigation. Because these 
models rely on historical data, there is the potential for them 
to systematize and amplify discrimination and inequality. For 
example, due to the legacy of redlining and segregation, and 
their effects on present day neighborhood conditions and home 
values, why should we expect AI to produce estimates that are 
both accurate and fair? And absent guardrails, how would we 
know if AI models were to incorporate data elements such as GPS 
location that serve as a proxy for race, gender, or ability?
    AI models are not subject to human error, and they enable 
more accurate and consistent decisions. Depending on how they 
are developed, their enhanced capabilities could expand access 
to home ownership for households currently underrepresented in 
the mortgage market. For example, AI can produce faster and 
less subjective estimates than human property appraisals, and 
can devise credit scores for those who lack a traditional 
credit history.
    To address concerns about AI's impact on access to the 
housing finance system for underrepresented communities, my 
colleagues and I have proposed five factors summarizing the 
societal, ethical, legal, and practical issues that should be 
considered in the development and implementation of AI. They 
form a memorable acronym, SCALE.
    First, societal values. Algorithms tell us what factors the 
developers think are important in what order, and to what 
degree. AI models should consider the socioeconomic and 
historical context such as past discrimination, and should 
align with prevailing legal and ethical paradigms, such as 
disparate impact law, individual freedom, privacy, and racial 
equity.
    Next, is contextual integrity. Model inputs should be 
relevant to the mortgage and housing domain, and may differ 
substantively from those used for other or less consequential 
context.
    Then, accuracy. Models should be reliable, error-free, 
unbiased, and representative of all demographic and income 
groups across varying macroeconomic conditions.
    Next, legality. The model and its inputs should not 
incorporate characteristics protected by fair lending laws, or 
generate unjustified disparate impacts based on these 
characteristics.
    Finally, expanded opportunity AI models should 
significantly increase access to credit in addition to offering 
greater cost efficiency or risk assessment benefits. This 
criterion represents a higher bar than existing regulatory 
frameworks, and has perhaps the most promising impact on the 
economy and communities.
    This framework could inform new or expanded regulations 
such as guidance for the use of certain types of data, for 
example, an individual's social media profile for certain 
purposes, such as mortgage lending decisions. If designed to do 
so, AI models can increase access to home ownership and 
eradicate the effects of systemic discrimination while 
increasing accuracy and efficiency in the mortgage value chain.
    We need new laws on the Federal level that utilize the 
scale factors previously enumerated at every stage of the AI 
life cycle. Thank you, again, for the opportunity to testify 
here today, and I look forward to answering your questions.
    Chair Smith. Thank you very much. Now we'll hear from Mr. 
Schmidt.

     STATEMENT OF NICHOLAS SCHMIDT, PARTNER AND ARTIFICIAL 
  INTELLIGENCE PRACTICE LEADER, BLDS; FOUNDER AND CTO, SOLASAI

    Mr. Schmidt. Thank you, Chair Smith, Ranking Member Lummis, 
Senator Rounds, and the esteemed Members of the Subcommittee. 
Thank you for this opportunity to share my experience and 
insights into how AI is revolutionizing the housing sector, and 
how we can make it safer, fairer, and more accountable.
    I'm Nicholas Schmidt, the founder and CTO of SolasAI. I'm 
also the practice leader at BLDS. I've spent nearly 25 years 
working to ensure that data, algorithms, and statistics are 
applied fairly. And I've spent the last decade devoted to the 
responsible and ethical application of AI and machine learning, 
and with a significant portion of my work focused on credit and 
housing.
    Examples of AI, including the amazing ability of generative 
AI, and the horror of deep fakes and what they might do to our 
democracy, drive our fear, our fascination speculation. But 
really, as amazing, and as scary as those truly are, the more 
mundane examples of AI in machine learning are just as 
important, especially in housing.
    We must recognize that these technologies are already 
shaping many aspects of the industry and getting distracted by 
those sort of shinier aspects of AI, may take our eyes off the 
ball at a time that is really critical.
    So what we should consider is that while an AI algorithm 
could help enable people to get a home loan for the first time, 
it could also drive a decision to evict someone from their home 
or apartment without sign sufficient justification. Because of 
the former, we want to encourage the adoption of the 
technology, because of the latter, we want to make sure that 
it's only used responsibly. This is only possible through 
effective regulation.
    When considering this, what is really important to remember 
is that these systems are driven by human decisions. 
Unfortunately, this human-centric nature of AI development is 
overlooked, but AI is not self-operating, and claiming so is a 
dangerous notion. It absolves us of the responsibility, and 
also ignores the numerous opportunities we have to shape AI for 
the better.
    Just to illustrate this, let's consider a mortgage 
underwriting algorithm. I'm going to go through some of the 
ways in which a human impacts how that algorithm ultimately 
operates determining what data to use. Should you use something 
like education or purchase history, how do you define 
delinquency? That's going to make a very large impact on people 
who have income insecurity, but are ultimately able to pay 
their mortgages over time. That'll make a big difference over 
whether or not they'll actually get a loan.
    What algorithm should the lender use? That affects not only 
discrimination, fairness, accountability, but also potentially 
the safety and soundness of the lender? No algorithm is 
perfect. We have to make a decision. Is the algorithm good 
enough to put into production? And finally, someone has to 
decide how to use the algorithm. All of these decision points 
offer an opportunity for smart intervention.
    And when considering such regulation that comes out of this 
intervention, we should remember that these technologies are 
not new to housing. We do not need to reinvent the wheel. 
Instead, we should learn from the practices and frameworks to 
create a strong and reasonable regulatory environment.
    In particular, there are three things I'll, I'll mention. 
The Federal Reserve's SR11-7 Policy, the NIST AI Risk 
Management Framework, and SP 1270 guidance and the disparate 
impact and disparate treatment framework from the Fair Housing 
Act, and potentially E-COA--we shall see what the courts say 
about that. But out of these frameworks and practices, I want 
to distill this down to four principles. Fairness, 
transparency, accountability, and materiality.
    Fairness, disparate impact and disparate treatment. And 
regulators should set expectations that bias and discrimination 
should be measured and mitigated in AI systems. But really, 
importantly, fairness is not just about antidiscrimination, and 
it is an issue that everyone here has a self-interest in.
    What is being put into some, not all, but some AI systems 
is not fair to anyone regardless of their race, ethnicity, sex, 
or age. We need to empower regulators to set and enforce 
principles-based standards for dating inclusion.
    Transparency. If a person receives a negative outcome from 
an AI-based decision, they should have the right to understand 
why.
    Accountability. If you are negatively impacted, you should 
have a right to appeal if it's a sufficiently high-stakes 
decision. Additionally, people or entities that deploy AI 
systems irresponsibly should face the appropriate consequences.
    And materiality. Businesses need to understand and make 
risk-based decisions. You can't have, for example, an Excel 
spreadsheet subject to the same regulations and, you know, 
requirements and oversight as a credit underwriting algorithm 
that is scoring millions of people. Doing so, ultimately, is 
ineffective for all of our goals.
    So by considering these four sets of principles, we really 
can develop a balanced regulatory approach. And by fostering 
collaboration among all of the stakeholders, we really do have 
a potential to harness AI's value in housing. With this. I 
really do believe that AI can serve as a force for good. Thank 
you very much for the opportunity to share my insight.
    Chair Smith. Great. Thank you so much to all of our 
panelists. And we'll now begin a round of questioning from 
colleagues. And I will start.
    So each of you, it seems to me, are highlighting both the 
opportunities and also the risks of AI. But I'm struck by how--
I guess I want to dive in a little bit more into how you--we 
know that AI used in housing could pose significant risks. But 
I'm wondering if you could talk a bit more about what the 
beneficial applications for AI might be.
    Let's say just take for example a goal of figuring out how 
to increase home ownership amongst, traditionally, you know, 
people who've been traditionally unable to buy their own home. 
AI is a tool. How could AI, just as an example, be used as a 
tool to advance that goal? And anybody, I'd love to hear what 
you have to say about that, if it's implemented correctly is 
right.
    Ms. Rice. I can start. As I shared, we have just released 
research this month using AI to help expand access to credit 
for people who are creditworthy and have been kept out of the 
financial mainstream. There are many organizations, and our 
research shows that we can increase fairness and access by 
about 13 percent for underserved groups.
    There are many organizations--well, I take that back, not 
many, but there are some organizations that are working on 
using AI and other forms of technologies to incorporate factors 
that are currently not included in the underwriting systems and 
the credit scoring systems that we utilize today in order to 
determine if people can access credit opportunity.
    So I'll give you an example. Rental housing payment 
information. This is a very viable factor. It is an important 
and highly predictive variable that is not included in the 
underscoring systems that we utilize today. That missing 
factor, that missing information, that missing data could 
really open up the aperture for opportunity, particularly for 
people who live in rural communities.
    As I stated before, the CFPB's research and other research 
shows that people in rural areas have disproportionately lower 
credit scores, not because they're less creditworthy, but 
because they don't have access to the mainstream financial 
services that regularly report positive data to the credit 
repositories. So if you access credit outside the financial 
mainstream, using rental housing payment information can really 
increase access to affordable credit opportunities.
    Chair Smith. So if AI is including sort of better 
information, less biased information, potentially information 
that isn't included in regular decision making, you could 
actually have a net positive impact on the fairness of the 
system.
    Ms. Rice. That's right.
    Chair Smith. Right. Thank you. Let me ask kind of a 
different question. Like, how do we address this so-called 
black box phenomenon in AI where, you know, you have an AI tool 
that includes machine learning, so it is constantly learning 
and changing the way it's, you know, improving supposedly the 
way that it's making decision-making, but it seems to sort of 
spit out an answer at the end.
    And the question is, like, where did that answer come from? 
Could maybe Mr. Schmidt or Dr. Perry, could you just address 
that? How do we actually get accountability when you have that 
kind of a technological tool?
    Mr. Schmidt. So there are two issues here. One is directly 
your question and how do we deal with these incredibly opaque 
algorithms? But then there's another important piece, which is, 
should we even be worrying about this in high-risk situations, 
or should we be using more interpretable--requiring more 
interpretable, more understandable algorithms?
    And the way that this is first sort of surfaced over the 
last 5 or 10 years is been this idea that in order to have 
accuracy, you had to have an opaque black box. By being able to 
incorporate lots of interactions and nonlinear relationships 
and all sorts of difficult math, you would get a more accurate 
measure of, say, credit outcomes.
    What has happened over the recent years is that people have 
realized that you don't need to have these incredibly opaque 
algorithms. You can actually develop ones that are pretty 
understandable. And so I believe that those are going to become 
much more commonly used in these high-rate, high-stakes 
decisions.
    Chair Smith. Interesting. Thank you. Dr. Perry, I'm out of 
time, if there's anything that you'd like to add, I'd love to 
hear from you.
    Ms. Perry. I just wanted to add that because these models 
are dynamic, they change often. The question is, which version 
of a model even would you scrutinize or monitor?
    Chair Smith. Yeah. Thank you. Senator Lummis.
    Senator Lummis. Thank you, Madam Chair. Mr. Schmidt, 
welcome. You have an interesting job and an important one in 
terms of helping us understand the four criteria you mentioned 
in your testimony. With regard to transparency, what level of 
explanation do you think companies and organizations should 
provide to consumers?
    Mr. Schmidt. So I think that there are two principles that, 
that need to apply. One of them is transparency into the 
process that they have undergone, and that will allow people to 
understand whether or not the data that was used was fair as 
well as the process, and whether or not the data was right. So 
were they using some factor, you know, education in a situation 
where education really didn't belong, or maybe they got the 
education of the person wrong. Being able to understand and 
appeal those decisions is very important.
    The other area where this is really important is having 
some sort of understanding of how to improve one's outcome. So 
you got rejected and you got told that, you know, had, I don't 
know, number of delinquencies in the past 60 days. Maybe that 
one's easy to figure out how to rectify, but in these complex 
systems it could be much more difficult than that. And giving 
people a clear framework to move from being rejected to being 
accepted, I think could be a very helpful public policy goal.
    Senator Lummis. Another question, this one about data 
privacy. How do you think companies that use AI models for 
housing should be thinking about data privacy?
    Mr. Schmidt. I would like to preface this by saying that 
I'm not a data privacy expert, but what I have seen in my 
experience, particularly with large lenders and other 
organizations that are really leading the financial system, is 
that data privacy is very high priority, and making sure that 
there are not data leakages as people spend inordinate amounts 
of time on. So I think that that is something that is very well 
recognized and something that the industry is really striving 
toward.
    Senator Lummis. So what is the weakest link here? You know, 
when you named those four criteria, which one is crying in need 
of improvement?
    Mr. Schmidt. The one that keeps me up at night is fairness. 
And this is both from, again, antidiscrimination in the 
traditional sense of the word, as well as fairness for 
everybody in this room. The quality of models being built 
across all industries is low. That is absolutely not universal. 
There are brilliant people doing very brilliant work, but there 
is a lot of stuff going on there that is extremely low quality.
    And what we need is to have the same kind of, or similar, 
model governance standards that were put forward by the Fed and 
the OCC, put into lower tier lending institutions and places 
like the health care industry. Because you are absolutely 
right, that the health, the financial system, financial 
industry, is light years ahead of every other industry. And the 
potential for damage if strong model governance is not put into 
place, astronomical.
    Senator Lummis. Can you help with that? Have you studied 
this enough that you're beginning to see how to break through 
those areas where the data is being used in a very 
unsophisticated way?
    Mr. Schmidt. These are mostly people problems. The problem 
with data scientists and data science is that there are--
colloquially, I'd say they're drunk on algorithms. They get 
very excited by the math, and they get very excited by the next 
new thing, and they don't take a step away and say, ``What is 
it I'm doing?''
    And so, I think that the first step is making people answer 
questions, making the model builders answer questions. What is 
it I'm putting in here? Why am I putting it in this model? What 
purpose does it serve? And the way that that can happen 
effectively is by requiring effective model governance.
    And if I may, the other thing that is really important is 
having lawyers in the middle of the room. And in the questions, 
I always tell my clients that lawyers are the best data 
scientists because they're the most skeptical and negative 
people in a room, and that's really what is needed in data 
science. So we need lawyers, and compliance, and people like 
all the ones who are laughing in this room, because you are the 
people who are going to question the data scientists and get 
them to start doing better work.
    Senator Lummis. Well, thank you. As a lawyer, I resemble 
that remark.
    [Laughter.]
    Senator Lummis. So thank you very much. I yield back. Thank 
you, Madam Chair.
    Chair Smith. Thank you, Senator Lummis. Senator Menendez.
    Senator Menendez. Thank you, Madam Chair. And as a lawyer, 
I'm not going to speak as a lawyer today, but as a legislator, 
so I can avoid that.
    Because of the way AI learns by studying large sets of 
data, if there is a bias in the underlying data, it can become 
encoded in AI's decision-making process. And when it comes to 
housing, the historical data reflects years of redlining, 
disparities in wealth, access to credit, appraisal bias, among 
others. So Ms. Rice, Dr. Perry, how can we work to ensure that 
AI doesn't stratify or even expand existing disparities in 
housing?
    Ms. Rice. Sure. I could take a first crack at that. There 
are multiple ways that we have to work to make sure that AI 
doesn't magnify existing inequities. So one way is to take 
steps to audit and monitor AI, to examine it preproduction, 
predeployment, and also post-deployment.
    We have developed, actually, what we believe is a state-of-
the-art framework. It's called purpose process and monitoring. 
We believe that it's a state-of-the-art auditing model 
framework to help ensure that algorithms are fair, and 
equitable, and that they do not pose harm to consumers. 
Unfortunately, we do know, Senator Menendez, that many models 
that have been deployed are exacting harms on consumers. We 
have clear evidence of that. So what the purpose monitoring 
process and monitoring framework does, is it helps model 
developers answer all of the questions that Nick just talked 
about. Right? Is this a good use for whatever problem it is 
that you're trying to solve? Does it need an algorithmic or an 
AI solution? Because there are many problems that that need to 
be solved that don't necessarily need an AI solution.
    It examines the data, it examines the model development, 
and the efficacy and accuracy of that model. And then, it also 
looks at the potential and examines the potential for harms. 
And it identifies, or I should say, compels model developers to 
look at less discriminatory alternatives while they are 
designing the model.
    Models can also change post-deployment, right, their 
effectiveness. Just because a model is effective on day one 
doesn't mean it is going to be still be highly effective and 
accurate on day 200. So you have to continually be auditing and 
monitoring that model to make sure that it is still 
efficacious. Thank you.
    Senator Menendez. Dr. Perry, anything you want to add to 
that?
    Ms. Perry. Yes. I would just like to add that in order to, 
sort of, prevent these models from producing, reproducing 
existing discrimination or past discrimination, the one thing 
to do is to intentionally design models that explicitly remove 
those effects and reduce those effects. And actually, that's 
one of the great promises of these tools; is that they can be 
programmed explicitly to remove the effects of past 
discrimination because they are more capable of identifying 
them than the sort of traditional models that we've relied on 
in this industry for so long.
    Senator Menendez. Yeah. Let me follow up this line of 
questioning. That problem is further magnified by the challenge 
of explainability. That is the model--the results of AI models 
and the steps that led them to where they are can be difficult 
to parse due to the complexity of the algorithms and the 
underlying data. How should we think about issues of 
accountability and oversight when it comes to these AI models 
and the data that they use? And I welcome anybody's.
    Ms. Perry. I'll start. My opinion is to effectively 
monitor, we need to examine, one, the guiding principles that 
are used to create these models, the inputs which data could 
potentially be used and which are prohibited by the models. And 
then finally, the effects; so the entire process with the 
understanding that regulatory agencies may not necessarily have 
the resources to do the volume of monitoring and enforcement 
that we are accustomed to. So we definitely need stronger 
protections and processes in place to make this happen.
    Ms. Rice. And Senator Menendez, I'll just add that a couple 
of weeks ago, we held the first our inaugural responsible AI 
symposium. And I had the privilege of hosting a segment with 
the heads of all of the Federal regulatory agencies. And I 
posed this question to them, and they each said that we 
currently have existing laws on the books that effectively 
govern many aspects of AI development and usage. And they are 
working to make sure that their agencies are adept and can 
enforce and exercise effective oversight over the use of AI, 
particularly in financial services.
    Now, one of the challenges is getting staff that are 
educated and trained on these systems and usages. That is a 
huge lift. I will tell you, when we stood up our responsible AI 
division, we had to comb the globe to find someone to head it 
up. And we did find someone in Canada, not in the United 
States. So we have to really do a good job of making sure that 
our citizens, our students, are well educated in this area.
    The other thing that they mentioned is that they need 
resources. They need effective resources, and they need to be 
using AI tools themselves in order to effectively police this 
area.
    Chair Smith. Thank you very much. Senator Rounds.
    Senator Rounds. Thank you, Madam Chair. And let me just, 
first of all, say thank you for doing this hearing today for 
both of you.
    The AI working group, when we started the program, one of 
the things that we talked about was is we wanted every single 
committee to be able to participate because of the expertise on 
the committees and the individuals who participated in meetings 
like this to share their points of view and their 
recommendations. So I really appreciate your jumping on as 
early as you have. You're probably one of the first 
subcommittees to actually have a significant opportunity to 
talk about a specific area in which AI does make a difference.
    And I also want to say, Ms. Rice, what you've indicated in 
terms of the personnel issue is something that we have to take 
into account. And we're never going to have enough experts on 
this, and so to be able to share those experts is one of the 
reasons why NIST, I think, is going to be very important, being 
a location where we can find individuals from industry who can 
come in and participate and help to bring that expertise to the 
committees, as well as to the organizations responsible for 
overseeing AI development.
    I also wanted to--Mr. Schmidt, I think you would agree with 
me on this, but I want to get your thoughts. I think that a 
company is responsible and has to abide by the Fair Credit 
Reporting Act, the Fair Housing Act, the Equal Credit 
Opportunity Act, regardless of what technology that they're 
using, AI or otherwise. Correct?
    Mr. Schmidt. Correct.
    Senator Rounds. So really, one of the challenges we've got 
is how do we make sure that within an algorithm or within a 
decision-making process, because AI really is simply a very, 
very fast decision-making process that is now available to us, 
but one in which a computer system and a use of formulas 
actually learns from itself, whether or not it was making 
correct decisions and modifies it, as Dr. Perry indicated, can 
modify itself along the way.
    And so what I'm curious about is, I don't think we can be 
afraid of the technology, but I think we've got to be able to 
leverage the best of it while at the same time being able to 
provide the regulators the ability to ask the questions and to 
make modifications or request modifications, should there be 
biases identified. Can you think of any program that we've ever 
made that doesn't have some biases built into it?
    Mr. Schmidt. No.
    Senator Rounds. So really, the challenge for us is how do 
we identify those biases? And in fact, any adult who is 
responsible for making decisions today, is there a human that 
doesn't have biases built into their decision making?
    Mr. Schmidt. I've yet to meet one.
    Senator Rounds. Yeah. So really, the question for us is how 
do we overcome those human attributes and allow a machine to do 
a better job of making decisions that eliminates the biases 
that we're trying to get out of our decision-making processes. 
Fair enough?
    Mr. Schmidt. Yes.
    Senator Rounds. OK. I know that we're going to have a lot 
of discussions about the problems and the challenges that we're 
going to have anytime we bring in a new type of technology. But 
I wanted to close with this, and it's going to come right back 
down to what Ms. Rice had indicated. Suitable AI talent is 
going to be in high demand.
    JPMorgan said in May of 2023 that it had hired 900 data 
scientists, 600 machine learning engineers, and 200 AI 
researchers to execute its technology initiatives. Google has 
hired thousands of researchers and engineers to work on machine 
learning and AI.
    However, I believe that it's critical that AI solutions 
reach beyond our largest companies. We learned at the end of 
the last year that between 2022 and 2023, the number of people 
experiencing homelessness on a given night increased in the 
United States by 12 percent to 653,104 people. The highest 
number of people recorded since the inception of the annual 
count in 2007. Researchers have used AI to identify individuals 
most at risk for losing their housing to target with 
homelessness prevention assistance.
    Now, I think this is one of the things that we should do a 
better job on, and if we can eliminate some of the challenges 
we have, just in terms of the number of individuals that we 
have to impact, AI could actually help us identify those 
individuals before they become homeless.
    Mr. Schmidt, could you discuss what steps we need to take 
now to provide the AI workforce of tomorrow, and how we make 
certain that AI talent is reaching areas like homelessness 
prevention?
    Mr. Schmidt. To address the latter half of your question, I 
think that it is very important that we encourage organizations 
like Ms. Rice's, as well as academia, and the type of work that 
Ms. Perry is doing, because quite frankly, industry is not 
likely to jump on those sorts of things. And we have to put the 
incentives in the right places and give the right people the 
right money and ability to put forward those sorts of programs. 
So that's what I would say about that.
    And then in terms of the talent gap, what we really need to 
do is concentrate on both STEM and liberal arts. What we need 
are well-rounded people. I've worked in tech-type companies my 
entire career, and I've always liked hiring English majors and 
history majors, and teaching them how to do statistics, because 
they're the ones who are really thoughtful.
    And so what we want to do is we want to encourage that. We 
want to encourage an educational system that is focused on 
questioning things, really getting into why are we doing 
things? And then the technology is secondary. My company, 
actually, so I founded it out 4 years ago. The first Python 
program I ever wrote became my company, and so I learned that. 
You know, I guess you can teach an old dog new tricks. I 
learned it later, and I think that many people can learn those 
kinds of things if they're given the right education to start 
with.
    Thank you. And thank you for your leniency on the time 
today, Madam Chair.
    Chair Smith. Absolutely. Thank you, Senator Rounds. Senator 
Warnock.
    Senator Warnock. Thank you, Madam Chair. And amen to Mr. 
Nicholas Schmidt on hiring folks with education and the 
humanities who think critically about these issues. Georgia is 
in a housing crisis, and it is not getting better. Since 2019, 
rent in Georgia has increased 13.7 percent. This is one of the 
highest increases in the country, but Georgia's not alone. 
According to Moody's Analytics, the amount that Americans are 
spending on rent is at a record high. For the first time last 
year, the average apartment cost over 30 percent, over 30 
percent of a family's monthly income.
    One factor driving rents up may be the use of AI software 
by some of the nation's largest and most powerful rental 
property management companies. As a ProPublica report details, 
this AI software looks at data across multiple companies and 
multiple buildings in the same area, and then recommends a 
monthly rental price. I am concerned that these tools may 
enable property management to coordinate pricing, coordinate 
escalation, inflate rents, and stifle competition.
    Ms. Rice, folks across Georgia are feeling the rental 
pinch. How can we ensure that AI driven rental software is not 
being weaponized to artificially inflate the rental market?
    Ms. Rice. Senator Warnock, thank you for that question. And 
you're talking about dynamic pricing systems, and you're 
absolutely right. We are very concerned about these systems and 
believe that they are contributing to the increase in rental 
housing prices.
    And because the systems are operated by a few companies 
that amass data amongst a number of different landlords 
throughout a region, there is a great propensity for reducing 
competition because those systems are conveying to all of those 
different landlords, essentially, the same dynamic, a kind of 
dynamic pricing.
    So a land an apartment complex that may not be getting a 
lot of inquiries can still elevate their prices because their 
competitors are getting a lot of inquiries. Right? So it does 
really work sort of cross purposes when you think about fair 
and affordable housing principles.
    The other danger is that there is very little transparency 
around these systems. So if a consumer wants to know why did 
the price increase from day one to day two the only information 
the consumer gets back is, ``Well, this is what the algorithm 
is saying the price is today.'' There's no explainability or 
transparency around why that price increase happened. So 
unfortunately, this is an area where we do need increased 
regulation.
    We're trying to use current fair housing laws to tackle 
this problem. We're also trying to use current antitrust laws 
to tackle this process, and we're not getting where we really 
need to be. So we do need increased regulation here. The only 
thing that I will add is that local jurisdictions may be able 
to use tools that they have to tamp down on the utilization of 
dynamic pricing algorithms, but that remains to be seen.
    Senator Warnock. So in an ironic way, and AI is here to 
stay, which is why we're having a conversation, but in a way, 
it sort of mitigates against natural competition in the market 
that this is falsely derived through these algorithms, and 
they're opaque. It's difficult to get through to ask the kinds 
of questions that we need to ask.
    So this is a unique threat that Congress has to address. 
This is affecting renters, but home ownership and the impact of 
these algorithms are impacting communities of color. Buying a 
home access to credit has been a long significant barrier. 
Techniques like machine learning and artificial intelligence 
can improve credit access by incorporating more types of data, 
like paying utility bills and rental history to demonstrate 
that someone is creditworthy, but they can recreate in code 
historical disparities and discrimination in the housing 
market.
    So, I'd like to quickly ask Dr. Perry. Dr. Perry, as credit 
scoring models become increasingly sophisticated, how do we 
ensure that these models do not perpetuate through the 
algorithm's historical discrimination?
    Ms. Perry. Thanks for the question. In order to ensure that 
these models, many of which operate in a sort of black box 
which is one of the key issues that we are concerned with, is 
really to require that we adopt ways to monitor and scrutinize 
every aspect of the model development process.
    I can't say it enough how important it is to have a set of 
guiding principles or goals that drive the development from the 
outset. Then we need to know exactly what inputs are currently 
being used and what inputs could potentially be used. Then we 
need to look at the way those inputs are combined. And finally, 
we need to do effects testing, but we can't just look at 
effects the way that we currently look at, say, test for 
disparate impact, because this is far more complicated than 
that and requires far more information.
    And, you know, these models take, you know, a long time to 
develop, but they also are changing on a dynamic basis, and 
that's why it's really important to know what the goals of the 
model are upfront.
    That said, I think there's really great potential because 
for everything you can program the AI to optimize, you can also 
program it to optimize opportunity and fairness. You can tell 
it explicitly, do not look at factors that are correlated with 
race, ethnicity, ability, or any other kinds of protected 
factors or prohibited factors.
    Chair Smith. Thank you. Thank you very much.
    Senator Warnock. Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
    Chair Smith. Yeah. Senator Cortez Masto.
    Senator Cortez Masto. Thank you, Madam Chair and our 
ranking member for this great conversation. I'm going to 
follow-up on this, but I'm going to ask Dr. Schmidt. If you 
would, Mr. Schmidt, talk a little bit about automated valuation 
models and home appraisals. Right? There's positives because it 
should lower costs. It should hopefully decrease bias, which we 
have been talking about. But you also note that the data used 
to build an automated evaluation model will be biased, could be 
biased. Right? And you have software program to address this 
issue. So, talk to us how you're decreasing that discrimination 
as the initial data going into these models.
    Mr. Schmidt. Sure. So the problem with any kind of pricing 
model, automated valuation model is that it is necessarily 
going to be looking at location, location, location. You know, 
that's what drives price. Well, what do we know about locations 
and housing in America? It's got a history that goes up to 
today of discrimination. You know, that has not ended.
    And so if you are building a model that incorporates 
information about location, which you have to do to get an 
accurate model, you are building a discriminatory model. But 
there are two things that kind of make it better. One of them 
is relative to the alternative. If you think about the 
potential bias, not necessarily, but potential bias of a human 
appraiser, and there's been a lot of investigations and work on 
that. It's shown that there's a really high risk of human 
appraisal bias, very unlikely that that will be explicitly 
built into an automated valuation model.
    So what that means is that within a particular geography 
that you're controlling for in one of these models, you're 
likely to remove that idiosyncratic bias from the appraiser. 
But the fact that you are controlling from one geography to 
another means that you're incorporating that geographic level 
discrimination.
    So I think of AVMs as having--they're a step, maybe a small 
step in the right direction. They are also much cheaper in 
rural settings. My understanding is in rural areas, it can be 
impossible to get an appraisal, a human appraisal. If there's 
good enough data, then an AVM could provide one. So there are 
many reasons why an AVM would represent just a sort of uniform 
improvement relative to current not ideal practices.
    Senator Cortez Masto. So let me ask you this, because this 
is a concern. I see where we're going, and I think my 
colleague's absolutely right. AI is here, and people are going 
to start using it, and they'll start using an appraisal 
process.
    I know in Las Vegas, in the metropolitan area, home values 
in a majority of our Black neighborhoods were devalued by at 
least 12 percent. That's over $22,000 difference compared to 
neighborhoods with fewer than 1 percent of Black residents. How 
do we ensure that that bias doesn't get put into these models?
    Mr. Schmidt. So it will to some----
    Senator Cortez Masto. So then how do we adjust for these 
differences?
    Mr. Schmidt. Yes. But there is yet another aspect to it, 
which is--and Ms. Rice was talking about it, and it's actually 
the center of my work--called Searching for Less Discriminatory 
Alternative Models. And it actually works better in AI and 
machine learning.
    And what it turns out in machine learning models is that 
you can have thousands, really an infinite number of ways to 
specify these models, including certain information, excluding 
other information, changing what are called hyperparameters, 
which are kind of the knobs and dials that slightly change the 
algorithm. All of these can have, or changing the algorithm 
itself, all of these can have an effect on the bias as well as 
the quality of the model.
    And machine learning, it turns out, there are just way more 
opportunities. And so what I've developed, and what Ms. Rice's 
organization has developed, and other very good organizations 
are working on, are finding those fairer models, and that's 
where things can continue to improve.
    Senator Cortez Masto. OK. Any other comments, Ms. Rice?
    Ms. Rice. Thank you, Senator Cortez Masto. I will say and 
remind us that not every issue warrants a technological 
response. So there is still--let's still remember that we have 
human beings that are highly trained to perform these types of 
appraisals, and we have to use them.
    Now, that said, AVMs, while they can be a useful tool, they 
are not as accurate in every community, so they don't have the 
same level of performance. And so we do find that AVM models 
are less accurate. In fact, in some communities, they have a 15 
percent degree of accuracy.
    So I think you'd agree you would not want to use an AVM 
model in a community that has a 15 percent degree of accuracy. 
That we're finding that in rural areas, and we're finding it in 
predominantly Black and Latino areas. AVM models are much more 
predictive in areas that have a lot of new housing development, 
and that are predominantly White.
    So, we are working on tools to make AVM models fairer. What 
will make AVM models fairer is if we change the construct or 
the approach that we currently use to determine property 
values. Right now, we use a sales comparison approach, which as 
Nick has already said, requires that I look at what the house 
across the street from me sold, or the house around the block 
from me sold.
    We have worked extensively with the insurance sector to 
change their property valuation models to make them fairer by 
considering the cost of reconstruction, and making sure that we 
have accurate data that can assess what is that reconstruction 
cost, and that gets embedded or enfolded into the valuation 
process.
    Senator Cortez Masto. Thank you. Thank you very much.
    Chair Smith. Thank you so much. Senator Lummis. We're going 
to move to a second round of questions for anybody who has 
them.
    Senator Lummis. Thank you, Madam Chair. And I'd like to 
start just by saying, Mr. Schmidt, you finally gave me an 
explanation for what I can tell people. My son-in-law does--and 
I've wondered how to explain what he does for years. Now I 
know. He manages teams of people who are drunk on algorithms, 
to make a product that's useful by sober people.
    [Laughter.]
    Senator Lummis. So thank you for that. I finally know how 
to explain what he does. Panel, thank you so much. I have the 
same question for each one of you to conclude my questioning. 
And I'd like to start with you, Dr. Perry. What regulatory 
approach would you advocate for this Committee to pursue? What 
guiding principles can you point us toward? How can you help us 
be relevant in this discussion?
    Ms. Perry. Thank you, Senator Lummis, for the question. I 
think that of the most important consideration is holding AI 
accountable for expanding opportunity. More so than anything, I 
think that is of critical importance. It's also important to 
move really very quickly because the industry is already 
adopting and applying these tools in ways we are not even 
aware.
    Senator Lummis. Thank you. Ms. Rice.
    Ms. Rice. Senator Lummis, thank you so much for the 
question. First, I'd say I'd echo what I said earlier, that we 
already have a bevy of existing laws and regulations that apply 
in this sector. And so, what we can do is help you understand 
the extent of that. And one of the things that we are thinking 
about is pulling together sort of a matrix, you know, some 
agencies that explain what are the existing laws and 
regulations that are in place, and then understanding what we 
need to do to enforce those existing laws and standards.
    But the second, I will note, is that there are gaps. There 
are clearly gaps, and we're finding that--we talked about a gap 
with the dynamic rent, the rental dynamic pricing schemes. And 
so, listing where there are gaps, and then helping legislators 
understand what it would really take to fill those gaps.
    And here I do advocate for an intersectoral approach, 
because you're going to need academicians, you're going to need 
developers, you're going to need industry, and you're going to 
need civil rights and human rights organizations to understand, 
you know, how to design the legislation so that we are 
addressing those gaps that do exist.
    Senator Lummis. Thank you. Mr. Schmidt.
    Mr. Schmidt. So, I would really repeat what my copanelists 
said. I think we need to move fast. I think it's extremely 
important to recognize that existing regulations already cover 
90 percent of it. What I have seen the Consumer Financial 
Protection Bureau, CFPP, and the OCC doing, I cannot say enough 
for. I think they're really moving in the right direction. 
They're doing excellent work, and they should be empowered to 
keep going in those directions. What I see is that industry is 
responding in a way that is really right.
    The other thing I would say is just that we need to make 
sure that our regulators have the education, they have the 
experience that they need. What the bureau has done from 2016 
to today, I think they've done an amazing amount of self-
education and bringing on really good people. And they're doing 
a great job considering the resources they have, but they could 
use more.
    Senator Lummis. Thank you. And Ms. Rice.
    Ms. Rice. Senator Lummis, can I just mention one thing? 
Section 230, the Communications Decency Act. We are going to 
have to revisit it.
    Senator Lummis. Thank you for that. This has been a great 
panel. Thanks for your work in this area. This is all new to 
me. So your guidance is deeply appreciated. Thanks, Madam 
Chair, for holding this hearing. I yield back.
    Chair Smith. Thank you so much. I just have a follow-up 
question, kind of along the lines of what Senator Lummis was 
asking about. There have been some efforts at the State level 
creating legislation and guidance around AI implementation. Mr. 
Schmidt or anybody, would you just comment, do you see anything 
out there at the State level that you think is good or 
something that we should be cautious about?
    Mr. Schmidt. The New York Department of Financial Services 
just released a circular for insurance. And of course, I could 
quibble with a few things, but really, I could have written the 
thing myself and been proud of it. I think that what they have 
done is excellent and really principle-based, and based in 
existing regulation and law, and could be very effective.
    Chair Smith. That's great. Anybody else have a comment 
about State-led efforts that you think are useful or something 
to not do?
    Ms. Perry. There a number of States that have done some 
really impressive things. And the concern that I'm have now is 
that they're going to be different from each other, and it's 
going to create havoc for companies, and in particular, it's 
going to be problematic for smaller businesses to comply when 
there are different State regulations, and something that is by 
definition, crosses State boundaries.
    Chair Smith. Yeah. Thank you. That's great. Ranking Member 
Lummis, I have a feeling that you and I could--we have easily 
another hour-and-a-half of conversation with these excellent 
panelists about this topic. And I think that there's a lot more 
work for us to do around this idea of what model governance 
standards might look like. The President's executive order on 
AI, the AI Bill of Rights, and you all have laid out some 
possibilities. There's lots of work there.
    But I'm struggling to really understand like how that 
becomes implementable, you know, in industry as you're trying 
to figure out--you know, as industry is trying to figure out 
what the rules are. And I'm also really struck by how one of 
the things that happens in AI is there's an imbalance of 
information.
    Like, information is power. And if you have more 
information as a seller than a buyer, then you're going to have 
more power. I'm seeing this right now in my own home State of 
Minnesota, where we have these big institutional investors who 
are able to within a matter of minutes, when a house comes on 
the market, decide whether it's something that they want to buy 
or not, while an individual home potential homeowner can't 
possibly compete with that. And so that shifts the balance of 
power in how real estate market has worked in the past in ways 
that I think are concerning.
    So I always think that if you want to understand the 
outcome, you need to look at what the incentives are. And to 
me, the question is how do we build incentives into this system 
so that we are maximizing fairness, and accountability, and 
transparency as we as we try to set some guidelines both to 
encourage innovation, but also to make sure that these systems 
are working for the public benefit.
    So, thank you very much to all of you for this. Senator 
Cortez Masto, do you have a follow-up question at all?
    Senator Cortez Masto. Just a comment, and I appreciate the 
conversation. Let me just say I heard the be thoughtful, 
reasonable, and rapid three things Congress is challenged at 
doing. And so we are doomed from the start.
    But it really would be helpful to get your thoughts maybe 
on the top three things that we can focus on in the housing 
space, or the best model that a State has put forward. I 
understand the patchwork concern, but if there's a good model 
that can be brought to at a Federal level, I think that's worth 
looking at as well. And then finally, thank you, Ms. Rice, for 
talking about CDA and 230. I couldn't agree more. We have to do 
something about that. So, thank you.
    Chair Smith. Great. Thank you so much. Well, thank you to 
our witnesses for being here today and for providing such 
excellent testimony. Before we adjourn, I would like to enter 
several statements into the record from the Urban Institute's 
Housing Finance Policy Center, and from Zillow, as well as 
reports and articles from Dr. Perry. Is there any objection. 
Without objection, those will be entered into the record.
    For Senators who wish to submit questions for the record, 
those questions are due 1 week from today, which is Wednesday, 
February 7th. For our witnesses, you will have 45 days to 
respond to any questions for the record, and thank you again. 
And with that, this hearing is adjourned.
    [Whereupon, at 11:21 a.m., the hearing was adjourned.]
    [Prepared statements, responses to written questions, and 
additional material supplied for the record follow:]
                 PREPARED STATEMENT OF CHAIR TINA SMITH
    Today's Hearing will focus on the promise and threats that 
Artificial Intelligence poses in the housing sector, and I am very much 
looking forward to our witnesses testimony and this conversation. I 
want to thank Ranking Member Lummis and her staff for our ongoing 
bipartisan work as we put together this hearing. We both share, I 
believe, a deep interest in how we can develop Federal policy that 
supports innovation and expands opportunity for everyone to have a 
safe, decent affordable place to live.
    And one of the most consequential innovations in recent years is 
Artificial Intelligence. Leader Schumer, Senator Rounds, Senator Young, 
and Senator Heinrich are leading a bipartisan effort to explore the 
impacts, opportunities and threats that AI poses. And they have asked 
Senate Committees to engage in our areas of expertise, which leads us 
to this Committee hearing today, examining what AI means for housing.
    Without a safe, decent, affordable place to live, nothing in your 
life works--not your job, your family, your education, or your health.
    So, a foundational question is how AI can help and hinder this 
goal. We know that some aspects of Artificial Intelligence have been 
around for a long time, and we also know that major advances are 
fueling the use of AI in finance and housing in ways that we need to 
understand.
    Consumers can find AI when they encounter chat bots when they shop 
online, or digital ``helpers'' that seem to be ubiquitous.
    AI plays a role when:

    a prospective tenant is looking to rent an apartment,

    a renter submits a maintenance request to her management 
        company,

    a family tries to qualify for a home loan, or when

    a person experiencing homelessness is connected to 
        services.

    These are powerful tools that hold great potential to cut costs, 
target services, reduce wait times, and even reduce bias.
    But they also have the potential to bake in existing inequities, 
reduce accountability, and limit opportunity.
    Today AI is being actively used in every part of the housing 
continuum, from emergency homelessness services to mortgage financing. 
As I was preparing for this hearing, I found endless applications.
    AI is being deployed to help connect people experiencing 
homelessness to health and housing resources.
    AI is helping to forecast more precisely and accurately where 
families are at risk of eviction to help better target assistance.
    Academics and advocates are using AI and machine learning to help 
understand and map the country's zoning laws and codes, which span 
about 30,000 localities. These insights will help understand the dense 
and complicated rules that govern where, how and what type of housing 
is allowed to be built, so we can make better decisions about boosting 
housing supply and lowering costs.
    So there are many opportunities. And, there are also very real 
concerns about the threats that artificial intelligence can pose to 
Americans. In Minnesota, some landlords are reportedly using AI-
generated tenant screening reports that include incorrect and sometimes 
illegal and off-limits information. The result--it's even harder for 
people to find a place to rent, and they may never know why they were 
declined, or be able to correct the record. For landlords, it may be 
easier to just move onto the next applicant rather than considering 
additional information.
    Another example of how AI, used in a bad way, can be quite harmful: 
There's a current lawsuit in Minnesota against a law firm that 
allegedly has ``automated'' the process of filing evictions for 
landlords. In one month, the firm filed 400 eviction complaints. These 
eviction filings lacked much detail about why the eviction was 
happening and seem to routinely lack basic information about lease 
terms and included significant errors regarding lease dates, rental 
amounts, and payment information.
    The fact that a firm allegedly leaned on AI to generate a large 
number of eviction filings with false information, apparently without 
meaningful reviewing by an attorney is a big problem. Not only is the 
eviction illegal, but that eviction will live on in public records and 
hurt the tenant into the future.
    AI is also increasingly part of how people buy homes. It's used in 
credit scoring models and automated valuation models (or AVMs), which 
determine the value of a home. How AI is deployed has major 
implications for a person's credit scores, their mortgage rates, and 
whether home ownership and wealth building is even within reach. We 
know that we have historic, systemic challenges with fairness and 
equity in in this country--my own home town of Minneapolis has some of 
the greatest disparities in home ownership between Black and White 
families anywhere in the country. We need to carefully explore whether 
AI is extending and reinforcing these biases, and how it has the 
potential to correct them.
    Our excellent witnesses have an unenviable task in your opening 
statements--to ground us in both the opportunities and threats of AI in 
housing, in 5 minutes each. I look forward to hearing from you, and I 
look forward to hearing the questions and conversation with my 
colleagues that will follow.
    As with any innovation, there are both opportunities and challenges 
that must be balanced, and our job is to think through how these 
complex issues so we can develop the best public policy. I very much 
look forward to this conversation.

                    PREPARED STATEMENT OF LISA RICE

 President and Chief Executive Officer, National Fair Housing Alliance
                            January 31, 2024

[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]


                  PREPARED STATEMENT OF VANESSA PERRY
Interim Dean and Professor, The George Washington University School of 
  Business; Nonresident Fellow, Housing Finance Policy Center, Urban 
                               Institute
                            January 31, 2024
    Good morning. Thank you for inviting me to address the impact of 
Artificial intelligence, i.e., AI, which is being employed increasingly 
throughout the housing and mortgage industry. For these purposes, AI 
refers to the use of data and algorithms in place of human decisions. 
This definition includes machine learning models, which are programmed 
to imitate the way humans learn, iteratively correcting themselves to 
improve their accuracy.
    Compared to traditional models, AI relies on a wider range of data 
inputs and more complex combinations thereof. Although complex 
multivariate algorithms have been in place in the mortgage market for 
years, these models have the potential to incorporate nontraditional 
data sources. Due to their complexity, it is difficult, but not 
impossible, for anyone other than AI developers to scrutinize and 
monitor their inputs.
    AI models are already widely applied in the mortgage market. AI 
digital marketing models target prospective homebuyers and 
communications with customers are intermediated by AI chatbots. Credit 
scoring companies and mortgage underwriting systems use AI to evaluate 
credit risk. AI models are widely used for property valuation, loan 
servicing, and loss mitigation. AI regulation warrants urgent attention 
because evidence from other domains and my research with the Housing 
Finance Policy Center at the Urban Institute suggests that while these 
models can enhance efficiency, they can have unintended impacts on 
fairness and equity. \1\
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     \1\ Michael Neal, Linna Zhu, Caitlin Young, Vanessa G. Perry, 
Matthew Pruitt (2023), ``Harnessing Artificial Intelligence for Equity 
in Mortgage Finance'', Urban Institute, November 6, https://
www.urban.org/research/publication/harnessing-artificial-intelligence-
equitymortgage-finance.
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    AI models are not subject to human errors, and they enable 
efficient, accurate, and consistent decisions. Depending on how they 
are developed, their enhanced capabilities could expand access to home 
ownership for households currently underrepresented in the mortgage 
market. For example, AI can produce faster and less subjective 
estimates than human property appraisals and can devise credit scores 
for those who lack a traditional credit history.
    However, because these models rely on historical data, there is the 
potential for these models to systematize and amplify discrimination 
and inequality. \2\ For example, due to the legacy of redlining and 
segregation and their effects on present-day neighborhood conditions 
and home values, why should we expect AI models to produce estimates 
that are both accurate and fair? And absent guardrails, how would we 
know if AI models were to incorporate data elements, such as GPS 
location, that serve as a proxy for race, gender, or ability?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
     \2\ Michael Neal, Linna Zhu, Vanessa G. Perry (2024), ``To Err Is 
Automated: Have Technological Advances in the Mortgage Market Increased 
Opportunities for Black Homeownership?'' Journal of the Center for 
Policy Analysis and Research, forthcoming, https://papers.ssrn.com/
abstract=4347212.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    To address concerns about AI's impact on access to the housing 
finance system for underrepresented or marginalized communities, my 
coauthors and I have proposed five factors summarizing the societal, 
ethical, legal, and practical issues that should be considered in the 
development and implementation of AI. \3\ They form a memorable 
acronym, S.C.A.L.E., which stands for:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
     \3\ Perry, V., Kirsten Martin, and Ann Schnare (2023), 
``Algorithms for All: Can AI in the Mortgage Market Expand Access to 
Homeownership?'', AI, 4(4), 888-903, https://doi.org/10.3390/ai4040045

    Societal values. Algorithms tell us what factors the 
        developer thinks are important, in what order, and to what 
        degree. AI models should consider the socio-economic and 
        historical context (e.g., past discrimination) and should align 
        with prevailing legal and ethical paradigms, e.g., disparate 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
        impact law, individual freedom, and racial equity.

    Contextual integrity. In addition to its accuracy, model 
        inputs should be relevant to the mortgage or housing domain, 
        and may differ substantively from those used for other or less 
        consequential contexts.

    Accuracy. Models should be reliable, error-free, unbiased, 
        and representative of all demographic and economic groups 
        across varying macroeconomic conditions.

    Legality. The model and its inputs, if used for housing or 
        housing finance decisions, should not incorporate 
        characteristics protected by fair lending laws or generate 
        unjustified disparate impacts based on these characteristics.

    Expanded opportunity. AI models should significantly 
        increase access to credit in addition to offering greater cost 
        efficiency or risk assessment benefits. This criterion has 
        perhaps the most promising impact on the economy and 
        communities.

    In terms of policy directions, the S.C.A.L.E. framework could 
inform new or expanded regulations, such as guidance for the use of 
certain types of data--such as an individual's social media profile--
for certain purposes, such as mortgage lending decisions.
    While the S.C.A.L.E. criteria imply that model inputs and 
algorithms, due to the complexity of AI models, regulators cannot rely 
on traditional approaches to documentation and testing. Furthermore, 
concerns about potential harms related to AI are domain-specific, 
suggesting that regulation and enforcement efforts must be targeted 
specifically to housing and mortgage applications.
    If designed to do so, AI models can increase access to home 
ownership and eradicate the effects of systemic discrimination while 
increasing accuracy and efficiency in the mortgage value chain. We need 
laws on the Federal level that turn the ``S.C.A.L.E.'' toward imposing 
these standards at every stage of the AI life cycle.
                                 ______
                                 
                 PREPARED STATEMENT OF NICHOLAS SCHMIDT
Partner and Artificial Intelligence Practice Leader, BLDS; Founder and 
                              CTO, SolasAI
                            January 31, 2024
    Chair Smith, Ranking Member Lummis, and Members of the 
Subcommittee, thank you for hosting this important hearing and for 
giving me the opportunity to submit this testimony.
    My name is Nicholas Schmidt, and I am the founder and Chief 
Technology Officer (CTO) of SolasAI, as well as a Partner and the AI 
Practice Leader at BLDS, LLC. My passion for the responsible and fair 
application of artificial intelligence (AI) and machine learning (ML), 
including in housing, has driven my career, leading to the development 
of SolasAI, a software platform dedicated to mitigating bias and 
discrimination in algorithmic decision making.
    At SolasAI, we create software that not only addresses regulatory, 
legal, and reputational challenges but also empowers innovation in 
model development. Our work centers on reducing disparate impact and 
eliminating disparate treatment, ensuring that AI tools used in housing 
are equitable, effective, and profitable.
    Today, I am here to share insights on how properly implemented and 
regulated machine learning and artificial intelligence can transform 
the housing sector. I aim to provide a comprehensive understanding of 
the potential for AI to make high-quality housing more affordable and 
accessible, while also addressing the critical need for fairness and 
equity in these technologies.
Defining Artificial Intelligence
    Before one can hope to craft effective laws or regulations around 
the use of artificial intelligence, we must first define it and 
understand its scope. While the term ``AI'' often conjures a vision of 
futuristic and sentient machines, in practical terms, AI encompasses a 
wide array of far less radical technologies.
    Contrary to the popular focus on--and hype around--generative AI, 
AI's impact on society extends through various types of machine 
learning (ML) and AI applications, many of which are already 
transforming the housing industry. \1\ What can be defined as AI 
includes technologies ranging from predictive analytics to automated 
decision-making systems, all of which impact the affordability, 
accessibility, and equity of housing in the United States.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
     \1\ Significant ink has been spilled over the attempt to precisely 
define the difference between ``AI'' and ``ML.'' Commonly, people refer 
to deep neural network-based techniques that are typically used for 
image, text, and language recognition or generation as ``AI,'' whereas 
other techniques that are used for things like credit underwriting or 
pricing (including, especially, tree-based ensemble models) are 
referred to as ``ML.'' A more robust and thorough discussion of the 
terms can be found here: https://mitsloan.mit.edu/ideas-made-to-matter/
machine-learning-explained and https://aima.cs.berkeley.edu/
newchap00.pdf.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    In practical terms, ML and AI represent a class of mathematical 
algorithms that learn patterns and rules from data. These learned rules 
may then be applied to new data to inform real-world decisions. Thus, 
it is important to remember that the rules AI develops are based on 
mathematical (i.e., not human) insight, but that those rules are 
developed on historical data that encode many types of human biases. 
However, as I discuss below, despite the computer developing the rules, 
human decisions affect how the rules are developed and systems are 
used. Understanding this is essential for writing effective 
legislation.
Human Decisions Drive Algorithms
    Beyond the confusion of what ``AI'' is, many people are unaware of 
how much human involvement is required to build and deploy an AI (or 
``algorithmic decisioning'') system. In fact, particularly coming from 
technology companies, there seems to be a fatalistic attitude that 
implies nothing can be done to improve them. This notion, dangerous in 
the extreme, is easily proven wrong. There are numerous places where 
humans interact with AI systems before and during the deployment of the 
algorithms that shape whether the algorithms are making reasonable, 
safe, and fair decisions. Understanding the extent to which the output 
of an algorithm is dependent on the decisions that people who build the 
models make is essential because--at each of these decision points--
there are opportunities for humans to make better decisions that can 
make the algorithms more fair, accountable, and transparent.
    Using a mortgage delinquency algorithm as an example, the human 
steps required to make such a model include, e.g.:

  1.  Choosing what the model will define as a delinquency. A data 
        scientist might define delinquency as 60 days or 90 days of 
        nonpayment. For people with less income security, but who are 
        likely to be able to pay their bills over a longer period, 
        choosing 60 days instead of 90 days may make the difference 
        between being provided a loan or being rejected. Importantly, 
        this decision is an entirely human-based decision.

  2.  Choosing which data will be used to predict delinquency. The 
        computer only makes its rules based on the data it is provided. 
        The person building the model might only include data clearly 
        related to delinquency (e.g., the existing level of debt, past 
        payment history, etc.), or they may include data that is not 
        clearly causally related to delinquency (e.g., education or 
        purchase history). The choices that the modeler makes will 
        affect the fairness of the model, its accuracy, its 
        reasonableness, and its reliability. While algorithms will 
        choose how to weight different data (and possibly exclude 
        certain data altogether), choosing which data to provide is an 
        entirely human-based decision.

  3.  Choosing the type of algorithm that will build these rules. Model 
        developers have many options regarding what model architecture 
        they will use to develop the model (i.e., how the model will 
        learn from the data). These include architectures like deep 
        neural networks, gradient-boosted trees, or traditional linear 
        regression. This decision has direct implications in terms of 
        the transparency of the model and whether the model's decisions 
        will be explainable. Some kinds of models, such as regression 
        models, are inherently explainable. This means it is possible 
        to know exactly how the model arrived at a decision. \2\ 
        Others, such as neural networks, are not transparent. The 
        decisions surrounding model architecture have practical and 
        legal implications, as I explain infra.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
     \2\ Providing a hypothetical example of how easy it is to 
interpret a linear regression, suppose we build an AVM using linear 
regression that uses three variables to predict home price: number of 
bedrooms, number of bathrooms, and number of square feet. With linear 
regression, we know the effect of each of these variables on a 
particular house's estimated price because linear regression is 
completely transparent. Looking at the model, we could know that, for 
example, each bedroom adds $50,000 to the value. We could also 
explicitly tell that an additional bathroom adds $25,000 to the value. 
Finally, we could see that every additional 100 square feet adds $5,000 
to the value. On the other hand, a more complicated model architecture 
could learn from the interaction of all of these variables in highly 
nonlinear ways such that increasing the square footage of the house by 
100 feet adds between $0 and $50,000, depending on the number of 
bedrooms and bathrooms. While, in this particular example, a more 
complex model would be more accurate than the regression model, it 
would also likely be very difficult to interpret and fully understand 
the model. This becomes particularly problematic when we move away from 
this simple three variable example to a more realistic ML model, which 
might include dozens, hundreds, or maybe thousands of variables.

  4.  Choosing whether the algorithm is sufficiently accurate for the 
        task. No algorithm is perfect. One issue is that a model might 
        be very effective for some people, but not others. For example, 
        it might be highly accurate for high-credit quality individuals 
        but be far less accurate for those with lower credit quality. A 
        person working for the lender will ultimately make a decision 
        whether that trade-off is acceptable before putting the model 
        into production. More generally, whether to test for different 
        forms of inaccuracy, how to balance the varying costs of 
        inaccuracy, and what minimum accuracy requirements are required 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
        are all human decisions.

  5.  Choosing how to implement and use the algorithm. Generally, an AI 
        or ML model does not make a decision on its own. Frequently, 
        only a subset of applicants will be scored by the model; which 
        applicants are scored is a human decision. Once applicants are 
        scored, what that score means and how it is used must be 
        determined. For example, will a cutoff be used, or will the 
        specific model work with another model or subjective rules to 
        make a decision? Will the score be considered in light of other 
        variables or factors? All of these are human decisions. In 
        fact, when all of these decisions are examined together, it is 
        clear that the entire model system, of which the model itself 
        may only play a relatively modest role, is largely made up of 
        interlocking human decisions that result in an ultimate 
        decision.

    I take pains to point out each of these decision points because, as 
NIST-1270 puts it, ``A fallacy of objectivity can often surround these 
processes, and may create conditions where technology's capacity and 
capabilities are oversold.'' \3\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
     \3\ The sentence preceding this quote summarizes the issues I 
address: ``Adding to the challenge is the reality that these systems 
are built and placed within organizational settings along with their 
accompanying--often unstated--policies and priorities, and used by 
subject matter experts and decision makers who have their own implicit 
heuristics and biases.'' NIST SP-1270, ``Towards a Standard for 
Identifying and Managing Bias in Artificial Intelligence'', p.25.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    This fallacy of objectivity has led many to conclude that not much 
can be done to regulate or effectively manage these technologies. 
However, because so much of the use of AI is driven by choices that 
people make, regulators and the law do not need to ``surrender'' to 
these emerging technologies; the space is ripe for regulation of human 
decisions. In fact, effective regulation of these human decisions can 
create fairer, more equitable outcomes without stifling innovation in 
this space. But more than just a benefit to consumers, having defined 
and reasonable regulations would give companies more clarity on how 
they can safely use AI systems.
    I next provide context for how AI is used in housing by discussing 
common use cases and outlining the challenges and opportunities they 
offer.
The Use of AI Systems in Housing
    AI systems are increasingly being used across the housing industry, 
as companies find that many facets of housing decisions can be made far 
faster, cheaper, and more reliably than can be performed by humans. 
While, in past years, there was significant discussion about whether 
algorithms should be making such decisions, we are now in a world where 
the use of such algorithms is commonplace; companies that do not employ 
them are at great risk of losing out to those that do. Below, I outline 
several areas where I have seen algorithms used in housing and discuss 
the opportunities and challenges associated with their use.
    Many entities have used algorithms to underwrite and price 
mortgages for decades. Fannie Mae's Desktop Underwriter (DU) and 
Freddie Mac's Loan Product Advisor (LPA) have histories dating back 
nearly 30 years, while FICO introduced its first consumer score in 
1989. More recently, human appraisals are being replaced with automated 
valuation models (AVM), allowing fast and--hopefully--accurate 
assessment of the value of a home. Other ways algorithms are used 
include the provision and pricing of insurance, providing background 
screening for rentals, automating the servicing of loans, and pricing 
rental units.
    There are two noteworthy takeaways from these applications of AI in 
the housing industry. First, there is a long history of the use of 
algorithms in housing. Correspondingly, there is a wealth of experience 
in building these algorithms fairly, reliably, and transparently. As 
such, we do not have to reinvent the wheel when it comes to effectively 
regulating the responsible use of algorithms. Second, the reach of 
algorithms in the housing industry is growing fast, which will 
profoundly affect people's housing decisions. It is imperative that we 
learn from what we know about safely implementing algorithms in housing 
and apply that knowledge to these newer applications.
    However, before discussing how the history and practices of 
regulating and monitoring the use of algorithms can be extended and 
made better in the world of AI, I will discuss a particular use case of 
algorithmic decisioning--automated valuation models--because they 
represent a concrete example of many of the benefits and challenges 
inherent in the expanded use of algorithms and AI.
Case Study in the Use of Algorithms: Automated Valuation Models
    As anyone who has purchased a house knows, obtaining an appraisal 
can be a drawn-out, stressful, expensive, and opaque process. Further, 
there is substantial evidence that human appraisals often suffer from 
significant discrimination, with Black or African American homeowners 
and people living in predominantly Black neighborhoods having their 
homes appraised for far less than they would have been if they were 
White or lived in a predominantly White neighborhood. \4\ Additionally, 
people living in rural areas have found it difficult to get an 
appraisal of their homes, and have found that appraisals are often more 
expensive. \5\ \6\ Higher costs and delays in securing an appraisal may 
make transactions in rural areas take longer, cause sales not to occur, 
or prevent home buyers or refinancers from locking in lower rates.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
     \4\ http://tinyurl.com/3w5s2dak
     \5\ https://www.knock.com/blog/how-long-does-an-appraisal-take
     \6\ https://www.homelight.com/blog/buyer-how-long-does-an-
appraisal-take/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    A potential promise of automated valuation models (AVMs) is that 
they may solve these problems. AVMs replace the job of a human 
appraiser by predicting the value of a home using a wide range of data, 
including information such as a home's square feet, number of 
bathrooms, size of yard, tax history, location, sales prices of similar 
homes, and many other factors. While they have a long history of use by 
financial institutions in valuing portfolios of properties, they are 
now being used in a way that has a far more direct impact on consumers. 
Lenders are using these estimated home values for many financial 
decisions, including as a factor in deciding whether to offer a loan, 
provide favorable terms, or offer refinancing. As such, they may 
significantly affect a person's finances and life, influencing where 
they live and how much they pay for housing. Their use is instructive 
for understanding the benefits and harms of algorithmic decisioning.
    AVMs' obvious and clear benefits are their speed, availability, and 
price. The National Association of Realtors (NAR) reported that, in 
2022, the average cost of a home appraisal was $500, with 9 percent of 
appraisals costing more than $800. \7\ Once an AVM is built and 
running, the cost of calculating an appraisal is virtually zero for the 
model owner (though borrowers could still be charged for this service). 
NAR additionally reported that the median response from realtors 
indicated that it takes 14 days for a lender to return a completed 
appraisal, with 4 percent of realtors reporting that it typically takes 
them more than 30 days to receive a completed appraisal. In comparison, 
obtaining an appraisal from an AVM is virtually instantaneous; even if 
the lender performs subsequent reviews of the AVM-based appraisal, an 
AVM-based appraisal is likely to be available substantially faster than 
a human-based appraisal. It is likely that the use of AVMs has already 
ensured that home sales have closed faster, instead of languishing or 
being rejected.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
     \7\ https://www.nar.realtor/sites/default/files/documents/2022-
appraisal-survey-09-27-2022.pdf
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Another benefit of an appraisal from an AVM is that it may be less 
discriminatory than an appraisal made by a human. A blog post from the 
CFPB describes a lawsuit where a Black couple's home appraised for 
nearly 60 percent more after they ``whitewashed'' their home--removing 
evidence that they were Black. \8\ Given that the data used in an AVM 
would not incorporate information about the race of the homeowners, 
this type of discrimination is unlikely to manifest in a well-built 
AVM. Put another way, human appraisers are subject to cognitive biases 
they may not even be aware of; AVMs are not.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
     \8\ http://tinyurl.com/2jt4vtrs
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    However, this is not to say that AVMs will be free from any 
discrimination or bias. \9\ AVMs are not magical--if they create 
accurate appraisals, those appraisals will follow the real estate maxim 
of ``location, location, location.'' Of course, because of the history 
of housing discrimination in the United States, a home's location 
necessarily incorporates historical and present patterns of 
discrimination and bias. As a result, because the data used to build 
AVMs is necessarily biased, the output of the models will be as well. 
AVMs also cannot help when there may be insufficient data to draw 
conclusions.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
     \9\ Throughout this report, I use the terms ``bias,'' 
``discrimination,'' and ``disparities'' more or less interchangeably, 
according to their lay definitions. However, it should be noted that 
each of these has distinct definitions and interpretations in technical 
and legal settings. Defining these terms precisely becomes particularly 
important when measuring and mitigating discrimination.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    To summarize, the discriminatory effect of AVMs is likely to be 
mixed. Because an AVM does not have access to or incorporate 
information about individual sellers or borrowers, it cannot 
discriminate based on those factors. However, it will still incorporate 
price-affecting discrimination in the data it sees. As a result, we can 
view AVMs as a tool to help fight discrimination in home pricing, but 
not one that is complete or without significant residual problems.
    My work, and the software we have developed at SolasAI, measures 
bias and discrimination in models such as AVMs. As explained above, 
data may be biased due to historical patterns of discrimination; when a 
model is trained on such data, it results in a biased model. Our work 
focuses first on measuring whether a model shows evidence of unfair 
disparities and, if it does, attempts to identify the source of those 
disparities. If such disparities are found, the software searches for 
what is known as a ``less discriminatory alternative'' (LDA) model. 
These LDA models provide predictive power similar to or equal to the 
original model but have a less discriminatory effect.
    In addition to these remaining concerns about discrimination, AVMs 
raise at least two other challenges: interpretability and 
accountability. Many (but not all) AI and ML algorithms are described 
as ``black-box'' processes, which means that, while we understand what 
data went into the algorithm, and we can see what the output of the 
algorithm is, it is very difficult to understand how or why the 
algorithm made the prediction that it made. In the case of a black-box 
AVM model, a lender might not be able to provide a borrower with a 
reliable explanation for why the home they wanted to buy received a low 
appraisal. While this lack of clarity may be acceptable in low-risk 
situations, or when the algorithm gets its prediction right, having 
opaque black-box models make high-risk decisions that cannot be 
explained may not be fair to people who receive unfavorable outcomes.
    The lack of explainability also raises concerns about the quality 
of the models. If we cannot sufficiently understand why a model gives a 
particular prediction, then we should have less confidence in that 
model. The problem is that, while it may appear to be a high-quality 
model based on the data it has seen, if we cannot understand the model, 
then we cannot be sure that its decision-making process makes sense and 
is likely to continue to operate well if conditions change. As a 
result, for business-critical or high-human-impact decisions, model 
builders need to balance a desire for accuracy with the necessity that 
the algorithm be explainable. \10\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
     \10\ There is a general understanding that more opaque ``black-
box'' algorithms are better able to capture hidden patterns in data 
than less opaque, ``white-box'' algorithms. To the extent this is true, 
a black-box algorithm will likely be more accurate. However, there has 
been significant work done to show that in many contexts, less opaque 
and highly interpretable models perform just as well, or virtually as 
well, as opaque models.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The points outlined above about AVMs apply to virtually every 
algorithm making housing-related decisions. With regard to 
discrimination, an algorithm is not inherently discriminatory, but it 
can discriminate if it is given discriminatory data, poorly built, or 
used in the wrong context. However, as we saw in the context of AVMs, 
even if they suffer from known biases, they may still represent a 
better option than human-based decisions.
    Having used AVMs to illustrate the benefits and perils of using AI 
more generally, the next section outlines concrete steps that 
legislators and regulators can take to minimize likely harm while 
encouraging and fostering safe innovation in AI.
The Role of Regulators and Policymakers in Ensuring Responsible 
        Innovation in AI
    As we consider regulations for AI in housing, the primary goal 
should be to maximize the responsible use of this technology: given its 
potential to cause extreme harm at scale, safe and sound implementation 
of AI technologies is paramount. However, given its potential to 
represent a significant technological development that delivers real 
and meaningful societal benefits, we should also aim to minimize 
regulation's potential to be overly burdensome, possibly stifling 
innovation.
    Effectively accomplishing this goal is significantly more likely if 
we consider two key factors. First, any approach to regulation should 
not be overly prescriptive. Instead, we should focus on setting clear 
risk-based principles that encourage and enforce responsible AI 
development and use, where the most impactful systems (i.e., the 
systems with the most potential to harm or benefit people, society, or 
the environment) receive the most oversight. Second, it will be 
valuable to recognize that a significant body of existing work, 
regulation, and industry practice can be applied to AI systems to make 
them safer. Looking to these tried and validated frameworks and 
policies should guide our approach to making effective regulations for 
the use of AI.
The Benefits of a Nonprescriptive Regulatory Environment
    A principles-based and less prescriptive approach to AI regulation 
can encourage innovation while ensuring the responsible development of 
AI. It recognizes the dynamic nature of technology and compliance and 
provides flexibility for continuous improvement and adaptation.
    A principles-based framework allows for innovation in both 
technology and compliance methods. On the compliance side, advancements 
like improved Less Discriminatory Alternatives (LDA) search and 
enhanced techniques for providing Adverse Action Notices (AANs) 
demonstrate how technology and compliance can complement each other and 
evolve together. Further, innovations in technology, such as Shapley 
values, explainable boosting machines, and Wells Fargo's Python 
Interpretable Machine Learning (PiML) package illustrate the rapid 
development of new AI tools and methods that encourage responsible 
model building. A less rigid but strong regulatory environment 
encourages such advancements.
    Overly prescriptive regulations, on the other hand, risk stifling 
innovation as they may lead to a ``design-around'' mentality, where the 
focus shifts from responsible development to merely meeting specific 
regulatory criteria. This can hinder genuine progress and the 
exploration of new AI and negate the desired helpful impact of the 
regulations. It also risks enforcing technical requirements that 
quickly drift into irrelevance as technology evolves.
Key Principles To Consider for AI Regulation
    Four fundamental principles are foundational for adopting effective 
AI regulation: materiality, fairness, accountability, and transparency. 
Developing regulations with these as guideposts will help ensure that 
AI systems serve the public interest while advancing technological 
progress.
    Materiality:
     This principle advocates for a risk-based approach in governing AI 
systems. By focusing more stringent regulation on higher-risk AI 
applications, resources will be allocated more effectively. For 
example, a company should not spend as much time reviewing a marketing 
model as they would an underwriting model that enormously impacts both 
consumers and the business. Adopting such a risk-based approach ensures 
that systems with the most significant potential impact are carefully 
monitored and promotes innovation by not overburdening lower-risk 
initiatives with unnecessary regulatory constraints. As discussed 
below, SR 11-7 provides a solid foundation for guiding how materiality 
is assessed in AI regulation.
    Fairness:
     The principle of fairness is central to the responsible deployment 
of AI. Establishing a clear understanding and expectation of fair AI 
practices is crucial, particularly in applications that significantly 
impact individuals, such as housing. Regulators should set expectations 
that bias and discrimination should be identified and mitigated in AI 
systems. Existing frameworks relating to measuring and mitigating 
disparate impact, disparate treatment, and proxy discrimination should 
guide further regulation of AI fairness.
    Accountability:
     AI systems must have accountability mechanisms, especially those 
with high impact. This involves providing individuals affected by AI 
decisions a right to appeal, ensuring that there is recourse for those 
who may be adversely impacted. Additionally, entities that deploy AI 
systems irresponsibly should face appropriate consequences.
    Transparency:
     The principle of transparency mandates clear explanations for 
decisions made by AI systems. This is fundamental to building trust in 
AI systems. Understanding the ``why'' and ``how'' behind AI-driven 
decisions is crucial for public acceptance and confidence in these 
technologies, and is further crucial to ensure that systems are fair.
    By focusing on these critical principles--materiality, fairness, 
accountability, and transparency--we can create a regulatory 
environment that encourages the development of innovative AI 
technologies and safeguards against potential harms and biases. This 
principles-based approach to AI regulation is particularly pertinent in 
housing, where the impact of AI can have profound implications on 
people's lives and the fabric of communities. Next, I discuss a number 
of frameworks that can serve as guides for future regulation.
Using Existing Regulations and Frameworks To Guide Further AI 
        Regulation
    Congress and regulators will not need to devise laws and 
regulations from scratch to achieve the objectives that I have laid 
out. There are many regulations, standards, and frameworks with a 
proven track record of setting standards for human decisions related to 
AI, holding relevant actors accountable for those standards, and 
supporting the development and deployment of these technologies. 
Importantly, in many (but of course not all) cases, the industry has 
welcomed these for providing clear and reasonable standards. I discuss 
these at a high level below.

    SR 11-7, \11\ a supervision and regulation letter from the 
        Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System, constructs 
        accountability mechanisms and organizational structures to 
        ensure adequate and risk-based governance of credit modelers. 
        While the document highlights the importance of technical 
        processes such as testing and monitoring, its primary focus is 
        on principles such as effective governance structures (e.g., 
        independent validation teams with high stature and strong 
        financial incentives), risk management executives with 
        independent reporting chains, and documentation requirements.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
     \11\ https://www.federalreserve.gov/supervisionreg/srletters/
sr1107.htm

    NIST SP 1270, \12\ a special publication from the National 
        Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST), describes 
        technical, process, and cultural problems and solutions 
        relating to AI bias. It highlights that many aspects of data 
        and AI systems are strongly influenced by human behavior and 
        decisions, and suggests that approaches from model risk 
        management (e.g., SR 11-7) coupled with more novel approaches, 
        such as structured feedback activities (e.g., bug bounties or 
        red teaming), human-centered design, and information sharing 
        are strong mitigants for managing bias in AI systems. Another 
        prominent theme of NIST SP 1270 is that basic scientific rigor 
        in AI needs to be improved.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
     \12\ https://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/SpecialPublications/
NIST.SP.1270.pdf

    The disparate impact, disparate treatment, and proxying 
        framework is a legal doctrine that has been developed over the 
        course of decades under the Fair Housing Act (FHA), the Equal 
        Credit Opportunity Act (ECOA), and Title VII of the Civil 
        Rights Act of 1964. This framework sets forth requirements for 
        measuring discrimination that could be used in any decision 
        tool (including AI or ML models) and provides a conceptual 
        framework for mitigating any meaningful disparities found 
        through conducting an LDA search. Many AI tools that affect 
        consumers in the housing market are likely covered by this 
        framework via the FHA. Setting the expectation that this 
        framework would be extended to all high-risk AI use cases 
        throughout the housing industry would ensure that companies 
        move towards adopting fairer models. \13\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
     \13\ Schmidt, Nicholas, and B. Stephens. ``An Introduction to 
Artificial Intelligence and Solutions to the Problem of Algorithmic 
Discrimination''. Conference on Consumer Finance Law (CCFL) Quarterly 
Report. Volume 73, Number 2 (October 2019). https://arxiv.org/abs/
1911.05755

    The NIST AI Risk Management Framework \14\ puts forward 
        four risk management functions for organizations: (1) Govern, 
        (2) Map (understanding the risk of AI systems in their 
        operational contexts with less emphasis on their development), 
        (3) Measure, and (4) Manage; and seven trustworthy 
        characteristics for AI systems: (1) Safe, (2) Valid and 
        Reliable, (3) Accountable and Transparent, (4) Explainable and 
        Interpretable, (5) Privacy-enhanced, (6) Fair with Harmful Bias 
        Managed, and (7) Secure and Resilient. Governance guidance is 
        largely aligned with the risk-based principles laid out in SR 
        11-7 but introduces additional governance concepts from data 
        privacy, information security, and more recent academic 
        research. The AI Risk Management Framework has two distinct 
        strengths: it acknowledges (1) that many AI risks arrive from 
        real-world problems, not computer code bugs; and (2) that 
        overlaps and connections between risks, risk controls, and 
        governance must be recognized. It does all this while orienting 
        governance toward traditional risk-based principles focusing on 
        human accountability.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
     \14\ https://www.nist.gov/itl/ai-risk-management-framework
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Conclusion
    The most significant harms associated with AI are not the 
fantastical scenarios often depicted in science fiction, but real-world 
issues such as discrimination, data privacy violations, unaccountable 
decision making, and fraudulent activities. Effectively regulating AI 
systems requires recognizing these facts. As AI evolves and impacts 
more aspects of housing, policymakers, regulators, public advocacy 
groups, and industry professionals must remain vigilant and proactive. 
We each play a key role in ensuring that AI systems are not only 
technically sound and effective, but are also fair, transparent, and 
accountable. This will require ongoing collaboration, research, and 
adaptation of regulatory approaches.
    Regulating AI so that it is used responsibly and safely and so that 
it can continue to benefit consumers and industry is a complex and 
crucial task. Materiality, fairness, accountability, and transparency 
provide a framework of principles that can serve as a touchstone for 
evaluating the effectiveness of proposed regulations. Further, 
leveraging existing regulations and frameworks such as SR 11-7, NIST SP 
1270, the disparate impact framework, and the NIST AI Risk Management 
Framework, regulators and legislators can create an environment that 
fosters innovation and protects against potential harm.
    The future of AI in housing presents both exciting possibilities 
and significant responsibilities. By embracing a principles-based 
regulatory approach, drawing on existing frameworks, and remaining open 
to continuous learning and improvement, we can build AI that reaches 
its potential to improve housing affordability, accessibility, and 
equity, while safeguarding the rights and interests of all individuals.
    Thank you again for the opportunity to share my insights and 
perspectives on this critical issue.

         RESPONSES TO WRITTEN QUESTIONS OF CHAIR SMITH
                         FROM LISA RICE

Q.1. How do we build incentives into housing and regulatory 
systems so that we are maximizing fairness, accountability, and 
transparency as we try to set guidelines both to encourage 
innovation but also to make sure these systems are working for 
the public? Can and should this be handled legislatively? Dr. 
Perry underscored the importance of holding ``AI accountable 
for expanding opportunity,'' and I welcome legislative and 
regulatory recommendations for how to best incentivize this.

A.1. Response not received in time for publication.

Q.2. You underscored the bevy of existing laws that apply to 
and cover most of the AI applications in housing. What are the 
legislative gaps you see in this space, and how do you 
recommend that Congress addresses them?

A.2. Response not received in time for publication.

                                ------                                


       RESPONSES TO WRITTEN QUESTIONS OF SENATOR WARNOCK
                         FROM LISA RICE

Q.1. The Fair Housing Act \1\ and Equal Credit Opportunity Act 
\2\ are landmark statutes to prevent discrimination in housing. 
Some Federal regulators have already used authorities under 
these statutes to engage in oversight of more advanced models 
that employ novel forms of data and more sophisticated 
statistical techniques. \3\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
     \1\ See supra n. 1.
     \2\ See supra n. 2.
     \3\ See Press Release, supra n. 3.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
A.1. Response not received in time for publication.

Q.2. In your view, are Federal regulators using all available 
authorities under FHA and ECOA to engage in oversight of novel 
software or models that employ machine learning (ML) or 
artificial intelligence (AI)? Why or why not?

A.2. Response not received in time for publication.

Q.3. Are there any ways in which existing statutes, 
authorities, or resources fail to enable policymakers and 
regulators to engage in oversight of novel software or models 
using ML and AI? If so, what additional authorities are most 
helpful? Please provide specific examples.

A.3. Response not received in time for publication.

                                ------                                


         RESPONSES TO WRITTEN QUESTIONS OF CHAIR SMITH
                       FROM VANESSA PERRY

Q.1. How do we build incentives into housing and regulatory 
systems so that we are maximizing fairness, accountability, and 
transparency as we try to set guidelines both to encourage 
innovation but also to make sure these systems are working for 
the public?

A.1. Existing regulatory frameworks in the lending industry, 
including, aspects of the Fair Housing Act, e.g., the disparate 
impact standard, \1\ and Affirmatively Furthering Fair Housing 
(AFFH), can be used to establish standards for fairness and 
accountability in Artificial Intelligence and Machine Learning 
(AI/ML) systems. Existing reporting requirements (e.g., under 
the Community Reinvestment Act, the Home Mortgage Disclosure 
Act, and the Federal Housing Finance Agency's conservatorship) 
collect data that can be used to evaluate outcomes, although 
expanded, real-time data, such as loan- and transaction-level 
detail, should be readily available to better inform regulators 
and policymakers about the impact these systems are having on 
the market.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
     \1\ ``Reinstatement of HUD's Discriminatory Effects Standard'', 
Housing and Urban Development Department, 03/31/2023, https://
www.federalregister.gov/documents/2023/03/31/2023-05836/reinstatement-
of-huds-discriminatory-effects-standard.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The issue of transparency is controversial among scholars 
who study ethical AI due to concerns about the complex and 
dynamic nature of AI/ML models. The Consumer Financial 
Protection Bureau (CFPB) has recently issued guidance 
elaborating on the Equal Credit Opportunity Act requirement 
that creditors explain the specific reasons for denying loans, 
even when complex AI/ML models are used. \2\ A distinguishing 
feature of AI models compared to algorithmic predecessors is 
that they often apply multiple factors simultaneously that can 
adapt to varying market conditions. Heretofore, these reasons 
have been listed in simple categories, e.g., credit history, or 
insufficient cash. In the case of AI/ML models, however, there 
could be numerous factors that may not matter by themselves but 
taken together result in loan rejection. To prevent consumer 
confusion, the CFPB should continue to provide standard 
categories of feedback, supported by empirical evidence on the 
messages that consumers are most likely to understand. At the 
same time, AI/ML models could be used to recommend actionable 
steps for denied applicants to take that would increase their 
likelihood of loan approval, e.g., how much debt reduction or 
savings would be necessary to qualify for a mortgage.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
     \2\ CFPB Issues Guidance on Credit Denials by Lenders Using 
Artificial Intelligence, Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, Sept. 
19, 2023, https://www.consumerfinance.gov/about-us/newsroom/cfpb-
issues-guidance-on-credit-denials-by-lenders-using-artificial-
intelligence/.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Financial regulators, e.g., the OCC, perform periodic 
reviews of underwriting models, and in the case of the 
Enterprises, model changes must be approved by FHFA in advance 
of adoption. To provide opportunities for innovation as well as 
regulatory oversight, President Biden's recent executive order 
on AI relies on voluntary commitments from AI companies and 
``red-team-style'' \3\ audits, but regulatory requirements and/
or tax incentives could be instituted to encourage firms to 
participate.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
     \3\ Red-teaming is the process of testing model effectiveness by 
applying an adversarial lens to your organization, https://www.ibm.com/
blog/red-teaming-101-what-is-red-teaming/.

Q.2. Can and should this be handled legislatively? You 
underscored the importance of holding ``AI accountable for 
expanding opportunity,'' and I welcome legislative and 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
regulatory recommendations for how to best incentivize this.

A.2. To ensure that AI/ML models accomplish the goal of 
expanding opportunity, \4\ legislation could be established, 
mirroring the Affirmatively Furthering Fair Housing (AFFH) 
provision of the 1968 Fair Housing Act. AFFH requires that 
entities receiving Federal funding related to housing must take 
active steps to promote fair housing practices and combat 
housing discrimination, based on an analysis of impediments to 
housing options in their jurisdictions. A similar mandate could 
be incorporated into H.R. 6580, i.e., the proposed Algorithmic 
Accountability Act of 2022, \5\ stipulating that predeployment 
impact assessments identify how an AI system expands 
opportunity for underrepresented groups (e.g., low-income, 
rural area residents, residents in historically redlined 
neighborhoods). Organizations would subsequently be evaluated 
against these goals at the post-implementation evaluation stage 
(Algorithmic Accountability Act, Sect. 3). \6\ To strengthen 
these incentives, additional legislation could create Expanded 
Opportunity Tax Credits for organizations which can demonstrate 
that the adoption of a new system has significantly impacted 
specific goals--a model that combines approaches from Low-
Income Housing Tax Credits and the affordable housing goals 
established for Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. In this example, a 
mortgage lender would qualify for a tax credit if they could 
demonstrate that a new AI/ML system would result in a higher 
rate of mortgage approvals for low- and moderate-income 
homebuyers, or for residents of rural or other underserved 
areas.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
     \4\ Perry, V., Kirsten Martin, and Ann Schnare (2023), 
``Algorithms for All: Can AI in the Mortgage Market Expand Access to 
Homeownership?'', AI, 4(4), 888-903, https://doi.org/10.3390/ai4040045.
     \5\ H.R. 6580, To direct the Federal Trade Commission to require 
impact assessments of automated decision systems and augmented critical 
decision processes, and for other purpose, Feb. 3, 2022, https://
www.congress.gov/117/bills/hr6580/BILLS-117hr6580ih.pdf.
     \6\ Mokander, J., Juneja, P., Watson, D.S., et al. (2022), ``The 
U.S. Algorithmic Accountability Act of 2022 vs. The EU Artificial 
Intelligence Act: What Can They Learn From Each Other?'' Minds & 
Machines 32, 751-758. https://doi.org/10.1007/s11023-022-09612-y
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    H.R. 6580, known as the Algorithmic Accountability Act, 
directs the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) to require impact 
assessments of automated decision systems and augmented 
critical decision processes. Rather than place the entire 
burden of these assessments on the FTC, all regulators of 
entities in affected industries, e.g., housing, credit, and 
education, could implement these assessments. This would allow 
specialization and alignment with the agencies' mission and 
goals.

Q.3. We know financial technology companies and mortgage 
lenders are exploring new ways to incorporate AI into 
underwriting and property valuation. What roles do Fannie Mae 
and Freddie Mac, as GSEs, have to play in shaping industry 
implementation and responsibility for AI technology? \7\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
     \7\ Neal, Michael, Linna Zhu, Caitlin Young, Vanessa G. Perry, 
Matthew Pruitt (2023a), ``Harnessing Artificial Intelligence for Equity 
in Mortgage Finance'', Urban Institute, November 6, https://
www.urban.org/research/publication/harnessing-artificial-intelligence-
equity-mortgage-finance.

A.3. Approximately 70 percent of mortgage loans in the U.S. are 
financed by Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, and most mortgage 
lenders utilize their proprietary underwriting systems. As 
conservator of the Enterprises, the Federal Housing Finance 
Administration (FHFA) has issued guidance for the managing 
risks of AI/ML systems \8\ and has approved the use of AL and 
ML models for certain applications, e.g., fraud detection, 
property valuation, and loan servicing activities. However, 
according to a recent study on AI in the mortgage industry, 
neither the Enterprises, the CFPB, nor other regulatory 
entities have provided specific standards for downstream 
adoption and management of AI by lenders, seller/servicers of 
the Enterprises, or other intermediaries in the mortgage value 
chain. Because the underwriting standards of the Enterprises 
are the primary drivers of lending practices industrywide, and 
because of the significant legal and financial risks of 
noncompliance, lenders and other market participants have been 
reluctant to experiment with AI-based innovations. \9\ As a 
result of this uncertainty, these lenders may miss 
opportunities to leverage AI/ML to advance opportunities for 
currently underserved market segments, such as models to expand 
credit scoring or increase fairness in property valuation.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
     \8\ Advisory Bulletin on Artificial Intelligence/Machine Learning 
Risk Management, Federal Housing Finance Agency, AB 2022-02, Feb. 10, 
2022, https://www.fhfa.gov/SupervisionRegulation/AdvisoryBulletins/
Pages/Artifical-Intelligence-Machine-Learning-Risk-Management.aspx.
     \9\ Neal, et al. (2023a).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Because of the Federal Government's close monitoring and 
oversight of the Enterprises, as well as their access to data, 
model development, and computing resources, they are in a 
better position than individual lenders to lead AI/ML 
innovation in the industry via pilot programs. For example, 
Freddie Mac has used AI/ML to incorporate rental and other 
payment data sources in their models, and partnering with 
Fintech companies has been one approach to expediting the 
development and testing of these tools. \10\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
     \10\ ``Zest AI Joins Forces With Freddie Mac To Help Make 
Homeownership Possible for More Americans'', PR Newswire, Nov. 18, 
2020, https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/zest-ai-joins-forces-
with-freddie-mac-to-help-make-homeownership-possible-for-more-
americans-301176336.html.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    It is important to note that historically, changes to 
underwriting models that require FHFA approval have taken years 
to implement, failing to meet the regulatory demands posed by 
the rapid pace of AI/ML innovations. For example, it has taken 
more than 5 years for the Enterprises to update their credit 
score requirement despite compelling evidence that these 
changes would have a significant and immediate impact on 
homeownership access for marginalized communities. \11\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
     \11\ ``Fact Sheet: Credit Score Models and Credit Report 
Requirements'', Federal Housing Finance Agency, Mar. 23, 2023, https://
www.fhfa.gov/Media/PublicAffairs/Pages/Fact-Sheet-FHFA-Announcement-on-
Credit-Score-Models-March-2023.aspx.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    It is also important to understand the influence of the 
Federal Housing Administration (FHA) on AI adoption in the 
mortgage industry. The FHA Technology Open to Approved Lenders 
(TOTAL) Scorecard has been developed using AI/ML and is used 
widely by mortgage lenders along with Freddie Mac and Fannie 
Mae's underwriting systems. Relative to the conventional market 
dominated by the Enterprises, FHA insures a disproportionate 
share of mortgages for low- and moderate-income, first-time 
homebuyers and historically underrepresented racial groups. For 
example, in 2023, FHA's percentage of mortgages to Black and 
Hispanic borrowers was 30.6 percent, \12\ compared to 15.7 and 
20.7 percent for Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae, respectively. \13\ 
FHA issues guidance for lenders on how to implement the FHA's 
AI-based systems but does not address lenders' use of their own 
AI applications. \14\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
     \12\ ``Fact Sheet: FHA's Impact in 2023--Making Homeownership 
Possible for Hundreds of Thousands of Families'', U.S. Department of 
HUD, Nov. 15, https://www.hud.gov/sites/dfiles/PA/documents/Fact-Sheet-
MMI-Rollout.pdf.
     \13\ ``2023 Annual Housing Activities Report'', Freddie Mac, 
https://www.freddiemac.com/about/pdf/2023-annual-housing-activities-
report.pdf; 2023 Annual Mortgage Report, Fannie Mae, https://
www.fanniemae.com/media/50736/display.
     \14\ Neal, Michael, Janneke Ratcliffe, and Matthew Pruitt (2023b), 
``AI Could Alter Mortgage Lending, but Government Leadership Is 
Needed'', Urban Wire, Urban Institute, November 6, https://
www.urban.org/urban-wire/ai-could-alter-mortgage-lending-government-
leadership-needed.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) 
also influences the adoption and oversight of AI in its role as 
regulator of the Enterprises' fair lending activities along 
with FHFA. Significant, additional investments in technology 
infrastructure and expertise will be necessary for HUD and the 
Department of Justice to investigate violations or otherwise 
enforce the Fair Housing Act when AI and ML are involved. 
Currently, the agency relies heavily on third-party vendors for 
fair lending testing of these models. \15\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
     \15\ Hoffberg, Adam, and Bill Reeder (2023), ``The FHA TOTAL 
Mortgage Algorithm: Providing Machine-Learning Analysis for Two 
Decades'', PD&R Edge, U.S. Dept. of HUD, June 27, https://
www.huduser.gov/portal/pdredge/pdr-edge-pdrat50-062723.html.

Q.4. Additionally, smaller, mission-oriented lenders such as 
Minority Depository Institutions and Community Development 
Financial Institutions tend to serve low-to-moderate income 
communities and minorities at higher proportions than other 
institutions. But we know, from one of your reports, that they 
have been slower to adopt AI than other financial institutions. 
Can you please describe this technology gap, and if it could 
further reinforce racial disparities in the mortgage industry 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
and what should be done about it?

A.4. According to a recent study, \16\ larger lenders are more 
likely to adopt AI/ML systems due to greater capacity to make 
the necessary investments in technology and human capital, used 
towards in-house or third-party resources. Fintech companies, 
for example, can charge anywhere from several thousand to 
hundreds of thousands of dollars per year to develop models 
used for customer service, underwriting, or fraud detection, 
not including additional ongoing costs for maintenance and 
administration. Taken together, these costs present significant 
barriers to AI adoption for smaller and mission-oriented 
lenders, such as CDFIs. Anecdotal evidence also suggests that 
these smaller institutions rely more heavily on relationship-
based approaches which are more labor-intensive, less 
quantifiable, and more difficult to replicate using algorithms 
designed for the mainstream mortgage market. However, one of 
the intended benefits of AI/ML is to incorporate nontraditional 
data sources in ways that can expand access to the mortgage 
market; another potential benefit is lower costs due to 
increased efficiency. Due to these technology gaps, smaller 
institutions could miss out on opportunities that AI presents 
to create mission-focused scale economies.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
     \16\ Neal, et al. (2023a).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    To ensure that smaller lenders have access to these 
technologies, regulatory agencies should partner with nonprofit 
housing organizations to provide technical assistance grants, 
similar to the Community Development Financial Institutions 
(CDFI) Program administered by the U.S. Department of the 
Treasury. This program provides grants to support investments 
in technology, capacity building, and new product development.

                                ------                                


       RESPONSES TO WRITTEN QUESTIONS OF SENATOR WARNOCK
                       FROM VANESSA PERRY

Q.1. The Fair Housing Act \1\ and Equal Credit Opportunity Act 
\2\ are landmark statutes to prevent discrimination in housing. 
Some Federal regulators have already used authorities under 
these statutes to engage in oversight of more advanced models 
that employ novel forms of data and more sophisticated 
statistical techniques. \3\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
     \1\ See supra n. 1.
     \2\ See supra n. 2.
     \3\ See Press Release, supra n. 3.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    In your view, are Federal regulators using all available 
authorities under FHA and ECOA to engage in oversight of novel 
software or models that employ machine learning (ML) or 
artificial intelligence (AI)? Why or why not?

A.1. Federal regulators, such as the U.S. Department of Housing 
and Urban Development (HUD), the U.S. Department of Justice 
(DOJ), and the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau (CFPB), 
have leveraged their authority under the Fair Housing Act and 
the Equal Credit Opportunity Act (ECOA) to regulate the use of 
Artificial Intelligence and Machine Learning models (AI//ML) in 
the mortgage industry. For example, in 2019 Facebook settled a 
Fair Housing Act case filed by HUD. The case alleged that 
Facebook's AI-driven advertising platform enabled 
discriminatory practices, such as targeting or excluding market 
segments based on prohibited factors, such as race, gender, 
nationality, religion, familial status, and disability. This 
landmark case has led to heightened awareness, increased 
scrutiny, and regulatory oversight of advertising practices in 
the mortgage industry. In addition, social media and digital 
marketing companies have instituted stricter policies to ensure 
compliance with fair housing laws.
    Additionally, in 2023, the CFPB, along with the DOJ, the 
Federal Trade Commission (FTC), and the Equal Employment 
Opportunity Commission (EEOC), issued a joint statement 
emphasizing their intentions to apply existing 
antidiscrimination laws and regulations to AI models, 
particularly when used for credit decisions and digital 
marketing of financial services. \4\ Later in 2023, the CFPB 
issued guidance reinforcing that existing legal requirements 
under ECOA for lenders to provide specific reasons for credit 
denials apply in the case of AI models. \5\ These examples 
underscore the potential for existing statutes to apply to 
emerging technological applications, such as AI/ML.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
     \4\ Khan, Linda (2023), Joint Statement on Enforcement Efforts 
Against Discrimination and Bias in Automated Systems, Federal Trade 
Commission, April 25, https://www.ftc.gov/legal-library/browse/cases-
proceedings/public-statements/joint-statement-enforcement-efforts-
against-discrimination-bias-automated-systems.
     \5\ CFPB Issues Guidance on Credit Denials by Lenders Using 
Artificial Intelligence, CFPB, Sept. 13, https://
www.consumerfinance.gov/about-us/newsroom/cfpb-issues-guidance-on-
credit-denials-by-lenders-using-artificial-intelligence/.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    While these are important signals to the industry about 
best practices and legal requirements, these agencies can only 
take action after alleged violations have occurred and 
complaints have been filed. Given resource constraints 
including limited in-house expertise in evaluating AI/ML 
models, more efforts should be placed on ensuring that AI/ML 
models align with prevailing legal requirements and established 
risk management principles before implementation, such as the 
predeployment impact assessments proposed in the Algorithmic 
Accountability Act of 2022. \6\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
     \6\ H.R. 6580, https://www.congress.gov/117/bills/hr6580/BILLS-
117hr6580ih.pdf.

Q.2. Are there any ways in which existing statutes, 
authorities, or resources fail to enable policymakers and 
regulators to engage in oversight of novel software or models 
using ML and AI? If so, what additional authorities are most 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
helpful? Please provide specific examples.

A.2. Resource constraints, regulatory bureaucracy, and 
statutory restrictions explain why existing statutes, 
authorities, or resources limit the ability of policymakers and 
regulators to oversee novel software or models using ML and AI. 
For example, under the Fair Housing Act and ECOA, HUD, and the 
CFPB, respectively, have subpoena power and can make referrals 
to the DOJ, but the DOJ is only able to make information 
requests. States have subpoena power but must defer to Federal 
regulators for cases against national banks. Congress could 
increase the effectiveness of enforcement efforts by expanding 
the subpoena power of the DOJ and the States.
    A Federal judge recently dismissed a case filed by the CFPB 
alleging that a mortgage company's communications would deter 
prospective Black mortgage applicants, ruling that the ECOA 
only applies to actual loan applicants, in contrast to the Fair 
Housing Act, which covers potential applicants. \7\ While this 
case did not relate to the use of AI/ML, it has implications 
for the ability to enforce AI/ML marketing practices. A 
legislative solution would be to align ECOA with the Fair 
Housing Act.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
     \7\ Andreano, Jr., Richard (2023), ``CFPB Suffers Significant 
Defeat in ECOA Lawsuit Against Townstone Mortgage'', Consumer Finance 
Monitor, Feb. 6, https://www.consumerfinancemonitor.com/2023/02/06/
cfpb-suffers-significant-defeat-in-ecoa-lawsuit-against-townstone-
mortgage/.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The Fair Housing Act's ``disparate impact'' rule prohibits 
the institution of lending policies, including the use of AI/ML 
models, that have an unjustified discriminatory effect based on 
protected characteristics. Similarly, ECOA prohibits the use of 
protected demographic characteristics in credit decisions. 
These regulations require lenders to legitimize actions that 
deny access to credit and housing opportunities but would be 
more impactful if expanded to stipulate an affirmative 
obligation by federally regulated entities to expand access to 
credit and housing opportunities.

                                ------                                


         RESPONSES TO WRITTEN QUESTIONS OF CHAIR SMITH
                     FROM NICHOLAS SCHMIDT

Q.1. How do we build incentives into housing and regulatory 
systems so that we are maximizing fairness, accountability, and 
transparency as we try to set guidelines both to encourage 
innovation but also to make sure these systems are working for 
the public? Can and should this be handled legislatively? Dr. 
Perry underscored the importance of holding ``AI accountable 
for expanding opportunity,'' and I welcome legislative and 
regulatory recommendations for how to best incentivize this.

A.1. It is essential to recognize that innovation and the 
principles of fairness, accountability, and transparency do not 
conflict. In fact, these principles are the catalysts that 
drive sustainable and impactful innovation. Rather than 
hindering progress, these values guide the development of 
technologies that will ultimately lead to successful 
innovation, serve the public good, and ensure equitable 
outcomes. Fairness is an integral component of successful 
innovation. Innovations that exacerbate disparities based on 
race, gender, age, or other categories cannot be deemed 
successful. Implementing standards that mandate testing and 
validation of the fairness of models mitigates risk and 
promotes innovation that benefits all segments of society. The 
importance of accountability in fostering successful innovation 
becomes evident when we reflect on the causes and responses to 
the 2008-2009 housing crisis. The lack of accountability by 
individuals making investment decisions was a significant 
factor in the crisis. However, the resilience of the lending 
industry since then can be attributed, in part, to enhanced 
regulatory standards for model risk management introduced by 
the Federal Reserve and the Office of the Comptroller of the 
Currency in 2011. These standards have significantly improved 
the vetting, testing, and monitoring of algorithmic decision-
making systems, and our economy's success demonstrates that 
accountability is a cornerstone of robust and responsible 
innovation. Transparency, likewise, plays a pivotal role in 
promoting responsible innovation within the housing sector. AI 
is, without a doubt, overhyped. As a result, there has been a 
tendency to implement AI systems without proper oversight in 
many industries. By encouraging and requiring more 
transparency, regulators and legislators will push companies to 
consider whether an insufficiently tested system is worth the 
potential for reputational harm that might result from 
disclosure through transparency requirements. For example, a 
modeler might want to use an unnecessarily and overly complex 
algorithm to assess credit quality (I have seen unnecessarily 
complex algorithms put into production far too frequently in 
unregulated industries). However, suppose the company 
understands that it has transparency requirements and must be 
able to explain why the algorithm made a decision. If the 
algorithm is too complex, the company cannot reasonably explain 
the algorithm's decisions. This may drive business and 
compliance leaders of the company to refuse to allow such a 
complex model to be used. This is beneficial because overly 
complex algorithms are often unfair and unsafe. Being 
encouraged to push back against the desire to ``move fast and 
break things'' will lead to a more considered and mature 
adoption of AI.
    While fairness, accountability, and transparency are 
compatible with and necessary for successful innovation, it is 
crucial to acknowledge the potential for legislative efforts to 
inadvertently impede progress. Successful legislation should be 
principled rather than prescriptive, offering a framework that 
fosters innovation while ensuring it operates within ethical 
boundaries. This approach allows flexibility and adaptation, 
which are essential for nurturing innovation in a rapidly 
evolving technological landscape.

Q.2. You underscored the bevy of existing laws that apply to 
and cover most of the AI applications in housing. What are the 
legislative gaps you see in this space, and how do you 
recommend that Congress addresses them?

A.2. With exceptions related to the provision of transparent 
explanations, standards around proxy discrimination, and 
mandating that modelers search for less discriminatory 
alternative models (which I outline in my responses to Senator 
Warnock), large lending institutions are generally well-covered 
by existing laws. However, smaller companies, including third-
party model providers, have generally not been subject to the 
rigorous standards against which large institutions are 
assessed in terms of model governance, model quality, fairness, 
and safety. While it is likely unreasonable to require that 
smaller companies meet the compliance standards of the top 
banks, they should be subject to more rigorous standards and 
expectations. Creating legislation that provides more funding 
for existing regulators to understand these issues and 
investigate companies that do not meet minimum standards would 
help ensure that these models, which have a significant effect 
on people's ability to rent apartments or buy homes, would be 
fairer and more effective.

                                ------                                


       RESPONSES TO WRITTEN QUESTIONS OF SENATOR WARNOCK
                     FROM NICHOLAS SCHMIDT

Q.1. As credit underwriting models increasingly employ newer 
and larger sets of data, I am concerned that historical 
discrimination in housing may lead to biased training data.
    What is your current assessment of the quality of training 
data available for those building credit models?

A.1. The quality of training data used to construct credit 
models is often inconsistent. Data quality is generally high 
for individuals with sufficient historical credit history to be 
evaluated through traditional credit scoring models, such as 
FICO or Vantage. While this observation may diverge from 
narratives frequently encountered in the press, credit bureaus 
maintain robust standards for accuracy and offer mechanisms for 
data dispute and correction. This achievement is, in part, a 
testament to effective legislative frameworks that mandate 
transparency and consumer rights to data access.
    Conversely, the emergent forms of data increasingly 
incorporated into credit assessments--particularly for those 
lacking a traditional credit score--exhibit varying degrees of 
quality. The issues stem from several factors, including the 
nascent stage of integrating such data into credit algorithms, 
the relative absence of mandates for data disclosure and 
correction, and the usage of complex algorithms that may 
obfuscate the impact of erroneous data on consumer credit 
evaluations. The latter of these issues may require significant 
efforts to uncover and address data inaccuracies, an effort 
that is often not sufficiently addressed by some model builders 
or users.
    Further, the issue of data incompleteness is more 
pronounced in these newer data streams. The dependency on 
third-party data providers that may not consistently capture 
information across all consumer segments exacerbates this 
challenge. Notably, discrepancies in data completeness often 
manifest along racial lines, underscoring the need for vigilant 
review and monitoring to prevent systemic biases.
    Despite these challenges, it is also crucial to recognize 
the potential benefits of incorporating alternative data 
sources. For individuals with limited or no traditional credit 
history, access to such data enables financial institutions to 
extend credit and housing opportunities that would otherwise be 
inaccessible. This can significantly enhance financial equity 
and provide opportunities to underserved populations. 
Therefore, while maintaining vigilance and concern about data 
quality and its associated fairness, it is essential to 
consider that its use often promotes financial inclusion.

Q.2. What standards are currently used by industry to assess an 
AI model's quality in terms of its data inputs as well as other 
model characteristics (e.g., accuracy, bias and discrimination, 
variance, performance on sparse data, etc.)?

A.2. Before machine learning (ML) and AI became widespread, 
most major financial services companies had robust processes to 
assess the fairness and reasonableness of decision making 
(whether subjective or algorithmic). As algorithmic decisioning 
has become more common, most companies have successfully 
applied these processes to their machine learning and AI 
algorithms. In particular, the legal framework of disparate 
treatment, disparate impact, and proxy discrimination is the 
most commonly used framework to assess fairness. This framework 
assesses both the data used to build the algorithm and the 
fairness of the algorithm's output.
    This framework has a rich history. While originating in the 
employment context, it has been extended to housing, lending, 
and other industries, including insurance and technology. Its 
advantages include its comprehensive yet flexible nature. It 
also addresses how discrimination has manifested in our 
society, and it provides an avenue to encourage inclusion 
without being unnecessarily burdensome. Finally, it is well-
designed to be applied to questions of fairness and inclusion 
in algorithmic decisioning by machine learning and AI.
    AI, ML, and the data used for these algorithms present some 
challenges to applying this framework, particularly in 
assessing proxy discrimination and disparate impact. 
Institutions would benefit from having more clarity around what 
types of data they can use and what they are expected to do to 
minimize any disparities in their models.
    Proxy discrimination involves making a lending decision 
based at least partially on a factor so closely related to 
membership in a protected class that it is essentially just a 
stand-in for that class. The classic example of proxy 
discrimination is redlining, which is the refusal to lend in 
certain neighborhoods that were almost always heavily minority 
neighborhoods. Lenders justified this by claiming that these 
neighborhoods were riskier to lend in than neighborhoods that 
were majority White. This was a racist policy, and lenders go 
to great lengths to avoid obvious proxies like this.
    However, in machine learning and AI, modelers use far more 
data than traditional credit bureau attributes, which are much 
less likely to be proxies for a protected class. When building 
these models, modelers may want to incorporate information 
about such varied things as marketing preferences, shopping 
preferences, and patterns of speech or writing that may cross 
the line and become proxies for a protected class. While it may 
seem clear that these variables should be avoided if they might 
proxy for a protected class, the question becomes more 
difficult for at least two reasons. First, using these 
variables may increase financial inclusion for people without 
sufficient traditional credit history--even for members of the 
protected class proxied by the variable. The question may be 
whether to deny a loan to everyone without sufficient credit 
history or to use these variables, accept some people without 
sufficient credit history, but accept relatively fewer members 
of a protected class than truly should be accepted if better 
data existed. The answer to this question is ultimately a 
public policy question that individual companies in the housing 
industry cannot answer on their own without encountering 
significant regulatory and legal risks. Thus, having clearer 
regulations around the use of potentially problematic variables 
would be beneficial.
    The second reason why this is a difficult question is that 
there is not a clear dividing line between disparate impact and 
proxy discrimination. While we can make some distinctions on 
certain variables, others are less obvious. For example, a 
variable that indicates where a person shops for clothing is 
almost certainly a proxy for sex. However, a variable that 
indicates the percent of disposable income a person spends on 
clothing may not be a proxy. Suppose the second variable is 
still correlated with sex, but it is also a robust predictor of 
whatever outcome is being modeled. In that case, it might be 
considered a source of disparate impact, not proxy 
discrimination. As such, it is not necessarily illegal. If the 
first variable does represent a proxy risk and the second does 
not, then it is obvious that there is some line between the two 
where a variable moves from being a cause of disparate impact 
to being a cause of proxy discrimination. The difficulty is 
that there is no clear guidance on where that line is. Industry 
participants would benefit from regulations that set out 
clearer guidance on what constitutes proxy discrimination.
    Machine learning and AI also present new issues related to 
disparate impact. While disparate treatment represents the 
explicit inclusion of protected class status into a decision, 
disparate impact is perhaps a subtler form of discrimination. 
In a disparate impact analysis of a model, we start with a very 
simple test. In the case of a yes/no outcome, we test whether a 
protected group receives the favorable outcome less frequently 
than a member of some reference group. For example, we test 
whether Black or African American applicants receive loan 
offers less frequently than non-Hispanic White applicants. In 
the case of a continuous outcome, such as interest rates paid 
for a loan, we assess whether the protected group has, on 
average, received worse terms than the reference group. Using 
interest rates as an example, we might test whether women pay 
higher APRs than men.
    Importantly, if we find evidence of unfavorable 
differences, we do not necessarily assume that the algorithm is 
illegally discriminatory. Instead, we move to the next step of 
assessing whether the algorithm's use has sufficient business 
justification and that none of the variables in the model 
represent disparate treatment or proxy discrimination. For 
example, a well-built credit underwriting model that has passed 
rigorous model governance standards and uses traditional credit 
bureau data would almost certainly pass this hurdle.
    If the model passes this second stage, we then test whether 
a similar process can still meet the institution's legitimate 
business needs but have a smaller negative impact on protected 
class members. Searching for such an alternative model is 
called a ``search for less discriminatory alternative models'' 
or ``LDA search.''
    Machine learning and AI have significantly extended the 
ability to effectively search for LDA models. In traditional 
models, the approach was to try adding or dropping a handful of 
variables and see whether that might decrease disparities while 
maintaining model quality. While sometimes effective, this 
approach often did not result in significant changes. In the 
new age of ML and AI, we have developed new techniques that 
have greatly expanded the ability to search for LDA models. 
Adopting such techniques can significantly increase equitable 
and fair outcomes in housing.
    While we have seen significant positive results from 
implementing these techniques, there is a lack of regulatory 
clarity around whether this is required, what techniques are 
allowed, and what standards will meet regulatory expectations. 
Legislation that clearly outlines that searching for less 
discriminatory models is a requirement and allows regulators to 
set the guidelines for what is acceptable will encourage 
industry participants to adopt these approaches. This could 
drive significant and positive change by making housing 
outcomes fairer and more equitable.

Q.3. In your written testimony, you stated, ``Many . . . AI and 
ML algorithms are described as `black-box' processes . . . 
[W]hile we understand what data went into the algorithm, and we 
can see what output of the algorithm is, it is very difficult 
to understand how or why the algorithm made the prediction it 
made.'' \1\ You also note that ``a lender might not be able to 
provide a borrower with a reliable explanation for why the home 
they wanted to buy received a low appraisal.'' \2\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
     \1\ Testimony of Nicholas Schmidt, U.S. Senate Committee on 
Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs, Subcommittee on Housing, 
Transportation, and Community Development (Jan. 31, 2024), https://
www.banking.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/schmidt-testimony-1-31-24.pdf at 
8.
     \2\ Id.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    In your experience, how commonly are ``black-box'' 
algorithms used in housing?

A.3. These algorithms are now quite commonly used in housing. 
They are used throughout the industry, most notably for 
marketing, appraisals, credit underwriting, loan pricing, 
evaluating renters, and servicing loans.

Q.4. How can regulators better ensure that lenders and other 
institutions use models capable of providing transparent 
explanations for their decisions?

A.4. Regulators may be able to encourage lenders to use 
appropriately transparent algorithms by assessing and judging 
them based on the quality of their models' explanations. If a 
lender knows it must give regulators evidence that its 
algorithms provide reasonably accurate explanations, it will be 
less likely to use an unnecessarily complex algorithm.
    The difficulty is that, even with relatively simple 
algorithms, all explanation methodologies have shortcomings; 
even the most robust approach will not always provide the best 
explanation for why an algorithm made a decision. This lack of 
perfection should not be a reason to reject AI and machine 
learning because well-built machine learning or AI algorithms 
significantly benefit consumers and industry participants.
    Regulators have not been clear about what constitutes a 
sufficiently robust explanation methodology. While this lack of 
clarity has been reasonable given the pace of technological 
change, we are now at a point where better guidance would 
benefit consumers and the industry. However, rather than 
prescribing a particular methodology, effective regulation 
would put forth methodologies for testing and evaluating the 
robustness of explanations. A company could then be evaluated 
on how well it tested its methodology and whether that 
methodology passed the tests it constructed. The benefits of 
this approach include that it would allow continued innovation 
by not prescribing an approach that may quickly find itself out 
of date while also providing companies with a clearer standard 
against which they can judge themselves.
              Additional Material Supplied for the Record

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