[Senate Hearing 118-640]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]


                                                        S. Hrg. 118-640

                  PUBLIC INTEGRITY AND ANTI-CORRUPTION LAWS 
                        AT THE DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

                            SUBCOMMITTEE ON
                               PERSONNEL

                                 OF THE

                      COMMITTEE ON ARMED SERVICES
                          UNITED STATES SENATE

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                             FIRST SESSION

                               __________

                             APRIL 26, 2023

                               __________

         Printed for the use of the Committee on Armed Services
         
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                 Available via: http://www.govinfo.gov

                                __________

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                      COMMITTEE ON ARMED SERVICES


                     JACK REED, Rhode Island, Chairman	
	
JEANNE SHAHEEN, New Hampshire		ROGER F. WICKER, Mississippi
KIRSTEN E. GILLIBRAND, New York		DEB FISCHER, Nebraska
RICHARD BLUMENTHAL, Connecticut		TOM COTTON, Arkansas
MAZIE K. HIRONO, Hawaii			MIKE ROUNDS, South Dakota
TIM KAINE, Virginia			JONI ERNST, Iowa
ANGUS S. KING, Jr., Maine		DAN SULLIVAN, Alaska
ELIZABETH WARREN, Massachusetts		KEVIN CRAMER, North Dakota
GARY C. PETERS, Michigan		RICK SCOTT, Florida
JOE MANCHIN III, West Virginia		TOMMY TUBERVILLE, Alabama
TAMMY DUCKWORTH, Illinois		MARKWAYNE MULLIN, Oklahoma
JACKY ROSEN, Nevada			TED BUDD, North Carolina
MARK KELLY, Arizona                  	ERIC SCHMITT, Missouri                                    
                                  
                                     
		    Elizabeth L. King, Staff Director
  		John P. Keast, Minority Staff Director
_________________________________________________________________

                       Subcommittee on Personnel

 ELIZABETH WARREN, Massachusetts, 
             Chairman
RICHARD BLUMENTHAL, Connecticut		RICK SCOTT, Florida
MAZIE K. HIRONO, Hawaii			MIKE ROUNDS, South Dakota
TIM KAINE, Virginia			DAN SULLIVAN, Alaska
TAMMY DUCKWORTH, Illinois            	TED BUDD, North Carolina
                                     
                                 (ii)


                         C O N T E N T S

_________________________________________________________________

                             April 19, 2023

                                                                   Page

Public Integrity and Anti-Corruption Laws at The Department of        1
  Defense.

                           Members Statements

Statement of Senator Elizabeth Warren............................     1

Statement of Senator Rick Scott..................................     3

                           Witness Statements

Wilkerson, Colonel Lawrence B., USA (Ret.), Former Special            5
  Assistant to the Chairman of The Joint Chiefs of Staff.

Brian, Danielle, Executive Director and President, Project on        10
  Government Oversight.

Krass, The Honorable Caroline D., General Counsel, Department of     57
  Defense; The Honorable Carrie F. Ricci, General Counsel, 
  Department of The Army; The Honorable John P. Coffey, General 
  Counsel, Department of the Navy; The Honorable Peter J. Beshar, 
  General Counsel, Department of The Air Force.

Questions for the Record.........................................    80

                                 (iii)

 
 PUBLIC INTEGRITY AND ANTI-CORRUPTION LAWS AT THE DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE

                              ----------                              


                       WEDNESDAY, APRIL 26, 2023

                      United States Senate,
                         Subcommittee on Personnel,
                               Committee on Armed Services,
                                                    Washington, DC.
    The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 3 p.m., in 
room 222, Russell Senate Office Building, Senator Elizabeth 
Warren (Chairman of the Subcommittee) presiding.
    Subcommittee Members present: Senators Warren, Kaine, 
Scott, and Budd.

         OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR ELIZABETH WARREN

    Senator Warren. I am pleased to welcome you all to today's 
hearing to receive testimony on public integrity and anti-
corruption laws at the Department of Defense (DOD). The people 
who choose to serve at the Department of Defense are talented 
and dedicated professionals who are committed to their mission 
of keeping American lives safe.
    Like all Americans, I appreciate their service and I 
appreciate their commitment to our Nation. But respect for 
these individuals cannot blind us to an ugly underbelly at DOD. 
There has long been a too cozy relationship between the 
Department and the increasingly powerful group of defense 
contractors that reap huge profits from hundreds of billions of 
dollars in Government contracts.
    The appearance and the reality of the Pentagon being 
captured by the defense industry undermines our public 
confidence and threatens our National Security. Every year, the 
Department of Defense receives more discretionary taxpayer 
dollars from the Federal budget than any other part of 
Government.
    DOD and the defense industry often defend the enormous 
Pentagon budget by pointing out that it supports substantial 
investments in development and research to make our country 
more innovative and more competitive, but that story does not 
fit the facts.
    A recent DOD study reported that defense contractors' 
Federal investments are increasingly going to their 
shareholders rather than being invested in more research and 
development.
    In fact, from 2010 to 2019, big defense companies spent 73 
percent more on stock buybacks and dividends than they did 
during the previous decade. Because Federal contracts are so 
profitable for defense companies, these companies want the 
inside track on how to win those contracts.
    A preferred strategy is to hire former Pentagon employees 
to put together the bids and then to present them to their 
former colleagues in Government. After all, if a defense 
industry staffer used to work in the next cubicle over from a 
Pentagon acquisitions officer, there is a better chance that 
the industry staffer can get his phone calls and emails 
returned. A better chance the industry staffer can schedule a 
sales pitch.
    A better chance that the sales pitch will go well, and with 
all the latest intelligence on what the Department wants to 
fund, the industry staffer who just left the Department of 
Defense, has the best possible chance of turning former 
friendships into dollar signs for the defense industry.
    This model is not hypothetical. A 2019 analysis by the 
Government Accountability Office (GAO) found that the 
Pentagon's 14 largest contractors have on staff 1,700 former 
Department of Defense senior civilian and military officials--
1,700 former DOD people using their DOD contacts on behalf of 
the defense industry.
    That is an entire small town working full time just to 
gather in Government contracts for the defense industry. Now, 
those who defend the revolving door between the Pentagon and 
the defense industry say that these Government employees are 
hired for their expertise. But again, the facts belie that 
story.
    In fact, a new analysis released today by my office, which 
is right here, check out the graphics, found that 91 percent of 
Government employees hired by the top defense industries don't 
become top executives. Nope, 91 percent of the Government 
employees hired by the top defense industry companies become 
registered lobbyists for their new employers.
    The biggest weapons contractors all have former senior 
Pentagon officials on their board. Their star-studded cast 
includes Lockheed Martin with a former Chairman of the Joint 
Chiefs of Staff and a former DOD General Counsel on their 
board. Boeing with a former Chief of Naval Operations.
    Raytheon with a former Deputy Secretary of Defense and Vice 
Chairman of the Joint Chiefs. General Dynamics with a former 
Secretary of Defense, and Northrop Grumman with a former Air 
Force Chief of Staff and Chief of Naval Operations. It is clear 
that these companies think that the best way to succeed is to 
buy influence with the DOD.
    Influence peddling occurs in multiple forms. Instead of 
going to work directly for a single giant defense industry 
contractor, some former military officers hang out a shingle 
when they retire and offer their services to foreign 
governments. They rake in the cash. A former Navy SEAL earned 
$258,000 a year as a special operations adviser for Saudi 
Arabia.
    An Air Force colonel received $300,000 a year to work for a 
Russian-owned satellite company. These foreign governments 
claim they are buying advice, but no one is fooled. In reality, 
they are purchasing favors, influence, and a good name for 
themselves in Washington, whether that is in America's National 
Security interest or not. Ethics lapses take other forms as 
well.
    The Wall Street Journal reported on DOD and other Executive 
Branch officials who own stock in companies that stood to 
benefit from their official activities. In one case, a Pentagon 
official owns stock in Alibaba while weighing in on whether the 
United States Federal Government should bar other Americans 
from investing in Alibaba because of its ties to the Chinese 
Government.
    The worst part, the DOD signed off on the official's work 
and didn't see a problem. Ethics requirements are essential to 
safeguard the integrity of the Pentagon's work, but too often, 
legislation has moved our ethics laws in the wrong direction.
    Last year's National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA) got 
rid of a requirement for the DOD Inspector General to report on 
certain aspects of the Department's ethics compliance. A few 
years ago, I barely defeated a proposal that DOD advocated for 
writing into Federal law that would have further watered-down 
lobbying restrictions on former Pentagon officials. We need 
more oversight of ethics enforcement, not less.
    I was concerned to see that DOD's written testimony for 
today's hearing claims that DOD specific rules can be, and I 
quote, ``counterproductive'' and ``undermine rather than 
promote a shared commitment to ethics.'' What undermines this 
commitment is DOD fighting laws passed by Congress instead of 
enforcing those laws.
    Now, to be clear, problems of undue influence are not 
unique to the Department of Defense. I have introduced 
comprehensive legislation to address ethics failures both at 
DOD and across the Federal Government.
    But failure to strengthen ethics laws elsewhere in 
Government is not an excuse for tolerating terrible ethics 
lapses at DOD. Ultimately, these conflicts of interest hurt 
competition, and they create an uneven playing field.
    At today's hearing, I want to hear from our witnesses about 
the threats posed by conflicts of interests, whether current 
protections in Federal law are sufficient to protect those 
conflicts, the process for approving retired National Security 
officials who are working for foreign governments, and any 
other areas where law and policies could and should be 
strengthened.
    In 1959, Congress held 25 hearings to investigate the 
revolving door between defense contractors and senior military 
officials. General Omar Bradley, our country's first Chairman 
of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, testified that he did not believe 
any former Government official should, ``bring any influence'' 
to win contracts for a company.
    The generation that fought World War II took ethics 
responsibility seriously and we should do the same. When 
defense contractors have an outsized influence over the 
Pentagon, or when senior leaders see no issue with selling 
their credentials to the highest bidder, our National Security 
is compromised and it is time to put a stop to this.
    So, to our witnesses, I say thank you and welcome for 
appearing. I want to turn to Ranking Member Scott for his 
comments to open this hearing.

                STATEMENT OF SENATOR RICK SCOTT

    Senator Scott. Sure. First, I want to thank Chair Warren. 
First of all, I look forward to reading your report. I want to 
thank Chair Warren for one, to make sure individuals and 
industry do not exploit American taxpayers to gain unfair 
advantage over others or jeopardize our National Security.
    My understanding is that under current law, former 
Department of Defense employees, whether military or civilian, 
are held to a higher standard of ethical conduct than former 
employees of any other Federal agency.
    Also, my understanding that DOD employees are subject to 
standard conflict of interest rules for which violations are 
punishable by jail time. They are also subject to enhanced 
restrictions on post Government appointment.
    They are enforced through a variety of civil punishments, 
including recoupment of pension payments. I know there have 
been some recent reports in the press about perceived issues 
with DOD ethics rules.
    You can also read in these articles evidence that our 
current rules are working. In all the media reports, personnel 
had undergone a rigorous screening process from the Department 
of Defense and State to read them waivers to work.
    In fact, much of this reporting reveals that in many 
circumstances, applicants are denied by the Government, and the 
individuals discussed in the articles have been extensively 
vetted and cleared. This is supported by a report issued by the 
GAO in September 2021.
    Additionally, in Section 1073 of Fiscal Year 2023 National 
Defense Authorization Act, a study is required to evaluate 
these issues. I think Chair Warren was instrumental in that. I 
hope we will wait for the results of that study before imposing 
any additional requirements on the DOD.
    Now, let me be clear, I think it is wrong and we do not 
want individuals or industry to exploit situations to gain 
unfair advantage over others or jeopardize the interest of our 
National Security. It is important that we not let people game 
the system and should never tolerate someone doing so in a way 
that risks National Security. I think it is important the two 
things exist at the same time.
    One, military and civilian personnel should be able to 
pursue meaningful employment to further advance U.S. National 
Security interests. Two, DOD must be able to protect against 
and punish unethical behavior without making service so much a 
sacrifice that we drive away those we truly need to protect our 
country.
    While it appears that we are doing a good job of this right 
now, I think it is important to always do exactly what Senator 
Warren is doing and be an advocate for improvements and second 
looks. We should be constantly reviewing policies and spending, 
and everything else that Government does to make sure it is 
working the right way.
    Again, I want to thank Chair Warren for holding this 
hearing today. I would also like to address my concerns 
regarding one of our witnesses today. I appreciate Colonel 
Wilkerson's service to our country, but I am highly troubled by 
his repeated and longstanding criticism in the harshest terms 
of Israel and those who disagree with the Colonel.
    I am referring to his repeated public statements calling 
Israel an apartheid State, certain that controls United States 
foreign policy. Clearly, the Obama, Iran deal blows that 
assertion out of the water. Israel did not support that deal. 
Colonel Wilkerson has also suggested that Israel, not Syria, 
used chemical weapons, and has asserted the United States 
should never have recognized the State of Israel because it has 
been a disaster for us and the world.
    I think countries like Jordan, which also wouldn't exist 
without Israel's help, and the Abraham Accords states would say 
differently. I would like to think those countries around the 
world whose trade, economy, and security have improved because 
of their ties to Israel, like India, would also disagree with 
the Colonel.
    The Colonel's continued attacks against former U.S. 
Government officials fails to add to reasonable debate that can 
improve policymaking. As to the Colonel's references to former 
Government officials he thinks are too close to Israel and 
favor too much, I remind us all that every country represents 
itself to the United States Government and each of us to 
attempt to influence our directions, our decisions, as do 
interest groups and private companies.
    I hardly think those representing Israel or its interests 
deserve more scrutiny than anyone else. I am particularly 
bothered by what appears to be an obsession by Colonel 
Wilkerson with the Jewish State of Israel and some of the most 
ardent defenders who, of course, are Jewish Americans.
    With the Colonel's past comments, it makes it difficult to 
have high expectations he will be able to contribute to our 
hearing today. With that, thank you to the witnesses for 
appearing before the Subcommittee today. I look forward to your 
testimony and want to thank Chair Warren for hosting this 
meeting.
    Senator Warren. I want to thank my partner here, Senator 
Scott, and we will get started with our panels. We are going to 
have two panels today. The first panel consists of outside 
witnesses to provide their perspective on where current ethics 
and public integrity laws are falling short.
    We will have Lawrence Wilkerson, Retired Colonel and Former 
Special Assistant to Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, 
Colin Powell, and we will have Danielle Brian, Executive 
Director of the Project on Government Oversight.
    Mr. Wilkerson, I am going to recognize you first. With 
apologies, I am going to go vote, handing the gavel over to 
Senator Scott, and I will return as quickly as I can. In the 
meantime, it is up to you.

STATEMENT OF COLONEL LAWRENCE B. WILKERSON, USA (RET.), FORMER 
 SPECIAL ASSISTANT TO THE CHAIRMAN OF THE JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF

    Mr. Wilkerson. Well, thank you, Madam Chairwoman, and 
Ranking Majority, or Minority Leader, and also the two 
Senators, at least one now who are in attendance, my own 
Senator from Virginia, Senator Tim Kaine.
    Let me respond to some remarks that were just made by the 
minority leader. George Washington was the one who opined first 
and most powerfully that any nation that ties its interests 
totally with the interests of another nation is bound to be 
punished for it. Of course, he was talking about France at the 
time, but that is applicable to any relationship that the 
United States might have with a friend, ally, non-NATO ally, or 
whatever.
    Let me thank you for asking me to come here today to talk 
about this. I think this is a serious issue, but I want to put 
it in some context, if I may, with a few minutes that I have 
and take it to a wider writ, if you will, but with pertinence 
and relevance, to be sure.
    We have been at war for more than 20 years. I see in 
Houston, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Chicago, where I was last 
week, soldiers of all components, marines and others walking 
around in battle dress uniform. First of all, I can tell you 
that would have been anathema to my old boss, Colin Powell, but 
it is not what we are. We are not a Republic that has soldiers 
in the street dressed for combat all the time.
    Twenty years of war plus and trillions of dollars spent, 
and yet we have nothing like was created on the 1st of March 
1941 and created essentially by SR71, and called essentially a 
committee to investigate the national Defense Program and 
chaired by, of course, Harry Truman, who said, ``this is going 
to be my main task,'' to ensure the big man doesn't get away 
with things that hurt the little man.
    Typical Harry Truman language, and that Senate 
investigating committee did enormous service for America. It 
pointed out many problems with an existential conflict, if you 
will. That is to say, one that we had to win on two fronts, in 
the Pacific and in Europe. Great service done by Harry Truman. 
I would say it was as great a service as he did as in the 
Executive Office. We have nothing like that today.
    I know the rejoinder would be we have all kinds of 
committees like the Senate Budget Committee, Senate 
Appropriations Committee, Armed Services Committees in the 
House and the Senate to do this or do that, but nothing like 
this, which is focused on what I call the National Security 
budget, which, ladies and gentlemen, is over $1.6 trillion 
annually now.
    That is including everything that should be under National 
Security. That is a lot of money. That is a huge amount of 
money. We have even got CBO [Congressional Budget Office] 
reports that postulate it might take all discretionary Federal 
spending in a few years just to pay for defense if we keep up 
at this rate.
    So, contributory to this and to these policies is another 
story I will relate to you about Norman Augustine. Many of you 
probably know who Norman Augustine is. He was head of the Red 
Cross. He was CEO [Chief Executive Officer] of Lockheed Martin. 
He was Assistant Secretary of Defense for Defense and 
Engineering. He was head of the Defense Science Board. His 
portfolio goes miles, associated mostly with National Security.
    Norm told Colin Powell and others of us when President H.W. 
Bush decided to downgrade the defense industrial base in the 
armed forces by about 25 to 30 percent, depending on what you 
are talking about. Norm said, ``you know what you are going to 
get with the defense contractors, don't you?''
    ``You are going to get six or seven that run everything, 
and they are going to monopolize, and they are going to build 
shoddy products and charge you a maximum price. That is what is 
going to happen,'' and by God, that is pretty much what has 
happened.
    The Chairman actually indicated that in some ways, with the 
stock sell offs and the share price increases and all the money 
going to the CEO and the VPs [Vice Presidents], and the CFO 
[Chief Financial Officer] rather than to the floor workers and 
such--Halliburton, I think, by some estimates, made $44 billion 
off Afghanistan and Iraq alone.
    When there is that much influence out there from the 
defense contractors, it is not like you call up, for example, 
Vice President Dick Cheney and say, ``give me a war,'' but 
there is a hell of a lot more influence for National Security 
decisionmaking whose objective is just that.
    That is what these Generals and Admirals and others 
contributed to by constant movement through what we call a 
revolving door and out to help that industry. Thank you.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Lawrence B. Wilkerson 
follows:]

          Prepared Statement by Colonel Lawrence B. Wilkerson
    In late August 1993, I was helping Colin Powell move into his new 
home in McLean, Virginia. We were admiring a beautiful over-and-under 
shotgun that Mikhail Gorbachev had given Powell when he was Ronald 
Reagan's final national security advisor, and at the same time we were 
resting momentarily in the lobby of the spacious new house, having 
unloaded quite a few items to that point. I took the moment to ask 
Powell an important question--for both of us.
    ``What's next for you, boss?''
    He looked at me with that enigmatic, slight smile of his and said 
he didn't know. I followed up with a matter-of-fact statement that he 
could emulate one of his heroes, George Marshall, and shoot for a 
cabinet position, SecDef or SecState.
    He answered with words that stunned me somewhat and that I will 
never forget.
    ``I'd need several millions of dollars to do that. You can't go 
after a cabinet position such as those without lots of money--
particularly if you're a Black man with 300 Jamaican cousins, at 
least.''
    Again he smiled--more widely--as I logged that trenchant thought 
without comment on what it meant, if true, for our democracy, both in 
terms of millionaire cabinet officers and the feeling that Blacks 
needed more insurance-for-the-future than Whites.
    Then he followed up with a statement that did not stun me and with 
which I completely agreed and about which I felt similar disgust.
    ``One thing's for certain'', he said. ``I won't be a beltway 
bandit.''
    I knew precisely what he meant.
    Powell and I had had several pithy conversations over the previous 
four and a half years about flag officers who departed the Pentagon, or 
other high perches in the military, and went almost directly to defense 
contractors or similar corporate entities and traded their 
``rolodex's'' for six-figure salaries and perks. Rather than rolodex, 
today the term would be ``cellphone contact list''.
    We both knew why they were hired by the likes of Lockheed, Grumman, 
Raytheon, Boeing, Booze Allen, SAIC, CACI, United Technologies (now 
merged with Raytheon), and so on. They were hired for the high-level 
people they knew and could influence, from their contemporaries still 
on Active Duty to the key people in other government departments and 
agencies, to the Saudi, Japanese, Korean, European, Israeli and other 
potentates and near-potentates, in uniform and in mufti, with whom they 
had worked during Active service. Those related to Saudi Arabia seemed 
particularly egregious and compromised, partly if not largely because 
so much money, both above-board and ``dark'', could be in play.
    Both Powell and I held such flag officers (and not a few Colonels/
Navy Captains) in some disdain.
    We both knew that the lives to which they had become accustomed 
were difficult to shed, both from a power perspective and a standard of 
living point of view. But we also believed there were several other 
ways to provide for a rough continuation of such lifestyles rather than 
prostrating oneself and one's honor to the beltway bandits, which is 
precisely what we both labeled them--and not just in humor.
    One could contend that we also knew there might be one or two 
officers who could go, say, to Lockheed, accept a position that paid 
six or seven times what they had earned in the military, and still make 
sound decisions and give sound advice and not put national interests in 
jeopardy. Adding in a very robust flag officer retired pay, they were, 
as we described it, sitting pretty--and maintaining their honor and 
dignity. But--and it's a huge ``but''--we both thought we could count 
such officers on one hand.
    Call it a deterioration of ethics in the military officer corps, 
the lure of filthy lucre, the lifestyle preferences, the elixir of 
continued power and influence, call it what you will, we knew that the 
Army did not usually produce many giants of integrity, as sometimes the 
American people seemed to think. We knew too that Hamilton and Madison 
had been right when they said men were no angels--and that's why 
governments were instituted and the rule of law established.
    And we often talked about how the process had become just too easy, 
that what had begun to be called the ``revolving door'' was well-
lubricated and passing through it took almost no effort and carried 
little stigma at all. And, usually, came with quite a few perks.
    Later, when we both were growing old, we had occasion to comment on 
one particularly egregious example that appalled us both. Powell opened 
his criticism with a blow to the solar plexus of the general officer 
involved, because he had been a staff member for Powell when Powell was 
chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
    This officer, in 2002 and 2003 and later, was not only working for 
a media outlet and being paid, he was also advising the boards of one 
or two of the defense contractors in position to benefit enormously 
from the 2003 Iraq War.
    From his media perch, he advocated strenuously for the war and for 
its positive progress after ``the statue came down'' (the apparent end 
of combat). It was very hard to believe this particular officer 
actually thought the war would be a cakewalk, and certainly not the 
post-hostilities phase because we all knew there were simply too few 
troops for the war and far too few for the war's aftermath. Indeed, 
Powell had even discussed such matters with the officer in question 
earlier as well as with the Commander of Central Command, General 
Franks.
    Both Powell and I, with some expressed disgust, concluded this 
officer was shilling for the war to increase share prices--which 
subsequently rose dramatically--as well as fulfill and secure his well-
compensated media role.
    This is only one example, perhaps one of the most egregious, but 
only one.
    For instance, both Powell and I discussed the number of USAF 
officers who pushed for the F-35 while in uniform and then went to work 
in some way for one of the several contractors involved. What troubled 
us most was that on the inside, so to speak, they knew of the cost 
overruns, the shoddy performance, the outright lies being offered about 
the logistics package and the associated costs, but they went right out 
and took positions with the contractors and became an integral part of 
the deceit.
    Likewise as the mission of Close Air Support (CAS) arose with 
regard to the F-35. These officers knew well that the USAF would never 
risk such an expensive aircraft supporting soldiers on the ground; yet 
they joined the chorus asserting the F-35 would perform CAS missions, 
perform them well, and thus the very best airframe for that purpose, 
the A-!0 Warthog, could be retired. That made us furious. We also knew 
that even if the F-35 were somehow committed to CAS, it would perform 
the mission atrociously, risking unnecessarily soldiers' lives. Both 
Powell and I had discussed the ``Roles and Missions'' debate numerous 
times--including going over the Key West Agreement as one of our first 
actions upon Powell's assuming the position of CJCS; so, we knew the 
history of the debates and how often CAS had fared very poorly in them 
since WWII. For both of us, this was a sacred matter of soldiers' lives 
on the ground.
    Both Powell and I realized how having partisan flag officers, more 
interested in making money and securing their futures than in the very 
best defense of sound policies and procedures, was putting not only 
vast resources at risk but more substantially, lives on the 
battlefield.
    Let me provide an example of how this revolving door situation 
actually confronted me.
    As a colonel, I had only a couple of offers from contractors as I 
departed the Army with 31 years of service. I believe this was largely 
because to the contractor empire I became a lost entity, so to speak. 
After Powell's 4-year chairmanship, I was asked by the Marine Corps 
Commandant, General Charles Krulak, to go to Quantico, VA and ``make 
his new war college joint.'' Having served with Marines before--and 
truly revering them--and having been on the faculty of the Naval War 
College in Newport, RI, as well as being a graduate of both that 
school's junior and senior courses, I knew the Navy and its Marine 
Corps very well. I accepted the Commandant's offer and served at 
Quantico for 4 years and was ``ceremoniously'' retired from the Marine 
Corps at Quantico and administratively, with no fanfare, retired from 
the Army at Ft. Myers (I wasn't even present).
    And to their credit, the two contractors that did discover me at 
Quantico followed all the rules in making me an offer, i.e., they made 
it post-both retirements.
    Later, when I became Secretary of State Powell's chief of staff, I 
was approached--illegally--while I was still in office and 
propositioned. Twice.
    Actually, in both instances the individual who was supposed to make 
me an offer, tried to do so but in both cases I cut him off, cited the 
rules, and politely asked him to leave my office. With some obvious 
embarrassment, both gentlemen did so with no debate. From their 
countenances and parting apologies, however, I could tell my actions 
were wholly unexpected.
    I relate this personal story simply to demonstrate how widespread 
such a recruiting practice is and how eager the defense industry is to 
get its hands on you if you are serving in high places. An acquaintance 
of mine, a West Point graduate and Army colonel upon his retirement, 
eventually accepted an offer not too dissimilar to one of those made to 
me and wound up serving his ``security contractor''--headed by a 
retired US Army four-star flag officer--in the Ministry of Defense in 
Tbilisi, Georgia and making hundreds of thousands of dollars as a 
consequence. His wealth at this stage vastly exceeds my own.
    The practice of stepping through the revolving door is well in 
place. It is, in my view, pernicious, corrupting, and damaging to the 
interests of the country.
    There is an indirect aspect of this revolving door story that needs 
mentioning too because it is at the least contributory to the problem. 
Powell and I discussed this issue several times as well.
    The issue is there are too many flag officers.
    The ``bloat of flags'', as we used to call it, is frankly 
incredible.
    One statistical indicator, which I find overwhelmingly convincing, 
is a simple set of ratios: in WWII, with roughly 12 million Americans 
in service, the ratio of flag officers to ``the ranks'' was one to six 
thousand. Today, with all Service components comprising roughly two 
million Americans (and one must be careful here in writing 
``Americans'' because a recruiting procedure today enlists non-
Americans with a promise of eventual citizenship), the ratio of flag 
officers to ``the ranks'' is one to 14 hundred. A dramatic difference.
    Today we have brigadier generals performing tasks, exercising 
authority and managing roles that in the past majors and lieutenant 
colonels performed quite well.
    Additionally, we have unnecessary three-and four-star positions, 
even in ostensibly leadership and management roles.
    But the staff officer ranks are by far the worst in this regard, 
whether the positions are inside the U.S. or on the increasingly 
bloated staffs of organizations such as the NATO military alliance.
    One Navy Captain, writing in 2019, had this to say:
                A cursory examination of the historical record makes 
                clear that the number of flag officers serving in the 
                United States Navy operates independently from either 
                the number of ships in service or the number of 
                personnel in uniform. Today, the number of flag 
                officers seems to be more a political concoction or a 
                runaway administrative outgrowth, but has little to do 
                with the sea or the ability to sustain combat 
                operations on it.
    I would agree wholeheartedly and apply the description to each of 
the other Services in addition to the Navy, with its Marine Corps being 
somewhat of an exception. I say somewhat because it too has had some 
inexplicable growth in numbers.
    And I am well aware that I keep describing the Marines Corps as if 
it were an integral part of the Navy and that any one of the present 
crop of Commandants would likely smack me for that description. The 
leaders of the Marine Corps today by and large consider the Corps a 
separate and independent entity in their heart of hearts--and the 
Congress has afforded them ample evidence of late to that effect, 
particularly by adding a Marine four-star to the Joint Chiefs of 
Staff--a decision this body might regret in a real war, say, with 
China. Unity of command has long been a principle of war and what is 
the Marine Corps divorced from the Navy except another Army?
    For a comprehensive look at what violating unity of command does to 
a military, see the eminent naval historian Dr. Craig Symonds' new book 
(2022), Nimitz at War, which relates the history of the Pacific Theater 
in WWII. Because Franklin Roosevelt would not intervene with Admiral 
King, Admiral Nimitz, and General Douglas MacArthur and establish and 
empower one overall commander in the Pacific, America suffered tens of 
thousands of casualties needlessly.
    Clearly, today's bloat of flag officers contributes to, if nothing 
else, the sheer number of retired flag officers available to defense 
and security contractors. I would contend that it also contributes to 
the less than stellar character of some of these individuals because, 
as I have earlier intimated, the ranks of solid-character Americans fit 
for such lofty service are not replete with individuals. There are some 
flag officers I have known whom I would not follow to a tea party let 
alone in a war.
    I vividly recall Powell's debriefing me on a call he had just 
received from Senator Chuck Hagel when the Senator was a member of the 
Senate Armed Services Committee.
    The Senator told Powell that he--the Senator--was looking over the 
proposed promotion lists of two-stars to three-stars and three-stars to 
four-stars.
    Hagel, Powell informed me, was angry. He told Powell that there was 
not a single individual on the prospective four-star list that he would 
want as a Service Chief, a Unified Command Commander, or a Chairman. 
Same with the prospective three-star list should any of them be so 
fortunate to make it to four. ``What is wrong?'' Hagel asked Powell.
    Powell then engaged the Senator in a somewhat lengthy and complex 
discussion of how the various Service personnel systems were simply not 
working very well when it came to who did and who did not make flag 
rank--and, more seriously, that the crop of prospects was not 
necessarily the best ever.
    Now, I had known Powell and worked for him directly about 3 years 
at that juncture of our 12 professional years together and I knew him 
even at that early stage to be somewhat of a historian when it came to 
American history, particularly military history.
    ``In our history,'' I asked him, ``has it ever been any better in 
decades of no significant war?''
    ``You've got a point,'' he responded. ``But it's not as if we 
haven't had plenty of combat practice.''
    ``Yea,'' I responded. ``And we haven't actually won a war in half a 
century-plus--except that little fracas in the Gulf in 1990-'91, 
kicking Saddam's Army out of Kuwait.'' (After all, my mother did not 
raise a complete fool. . . . ).
    ``So what should I have told the Senator?'' Powell asked.
    ``Precisely what you did tell him--the truth as you see it. After 
all, the Constitution assigns the Congress the responsibility to look 
after the armed forces, the Army in particular, as it's raised as the 
occasion demands. Since they provide for a navy, their diligence 
perhaps should be more acute in that direction.''
    ``It isn't any better there, and you know it.'' Powell conjectured.
    ``So what should we do?'' I pleaded. ``Pray for a big war?''
    ``Probably the only thing that would change the situation,'' he 
said, sadly.

                                        *****
    These are my thoughts and, clearly, I have conveyed some of the 
thoughts, as expressed to me, of General and Secretary of State Colin 
Powell as well. We had many conversations about such matters but, other 
than a real war to cleanse the ranks, we had no real solution--that is, 
a politically possible solution--to offer.
    We often remarked on just how many such people, the majority of 
them flag officers, General George Marshall had to root out and release 
from service in the late 1930's. The exigencies of a looming world war 
demanded it. I would not wish for that solution, but it just might be 
the only one that would work.
    I'm pleased to answer any questions you might have, if I'm able to 
do so.

STATEMENT OF DANIELLE BRIAN, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR AND PRESIDENT, 
                PROJECT ON GOVERNMENT OVERSIGHT

    Ms. Brian. Thank you, Chairman, and thank you, Senator 
Scott, for inviting me to testify today. I want to focus on 
three legal but corrupting phenomena that undermine integrity 
at DOD.
    The revolving door, as has been mentioned now, while some 
important reforms were passed in the 2018 and 2022 NDAAs, there 
really remain some significant loopholes. Let me give you three 
examples and why they matter.
    When the Chief of Naval Operations announced his intention 
to retire nine littoral combat ships, he stated that one more 
dollar in that system would result in a less capable, less 
lethal, and less ready Navy.
    But an intense lobbying campaign led by former Navy 
officials who had gone to work for companies with contracts to 
support those ships successfully prevented the Navy's 
retirement of five of those ships.
    Now, current lobbying restrictions did not prevent this 
because they only prohibit a very narrow definition of lobbying 
activities for very senior officials. When then Undersecretary 
of Defense Pete
Aldridge served on the Pentagon's Defense Acquisition Board, he 
helped decide that the Air Force's F-22 program should proceed.
    Two months later, he joined the board of Lockheed Martin, 
the maker of the F-22. After only 6 years, Defense Secretary 
Gates canceled production of that aircraft, saying they weren't 
relevant to current wars. The revolving door laws did not apply 
to Aldridge because he was too senior to be considered an 
acquisition official.
    When Lieutenant General Heebner was Assistant to the Army 
Chief of Staff Shinseki, they announced moving to an all-
wheeled army away from tracked vehicles. One month later, 
General Heebner was hired to become Senior Vice President of 
General
Dynamics, and you guessed it, the maker of the wheeled Stryker 
vehicle.
    Now, as we are supplying Ukraine with equipment to defend 
themselves, we are sending over 40-year-old tracked Bradley 
fighting vehicles because they are preferable for the offroad 
mobility, especially in mud. Revolving door restrictions did 
not apply to
General Heebner because he became an executive and not a 
lobbyist for the company.
    These examples demonstrate the impact of the revolving 
door. This is not just a nicety. It is about military readiness 
and effectiveness, and whether we are actually putting our 
troops' interests and our National Security first.
    My written testimony includes specific recommendations to 
close these and other loopholes. The second phenomenon, 
undermining the integrity of DOD is the occurrence of former 
U.S. Military and Reserve personnel receiving waivers of the 
Constitutional Emoluments Clause to work for foreign 
governments.
    POGO's [Project on Government Oversight] investigation that 
was concurrent with the Washington Post identified more than 
500 instances of these waivers over 10 years. Shockingly, the 
State Department is even approving waivers to work for 
countries notorious for serial human rights violations, 
including for former National Security adviser James Jones, who 
reportedly increased his work for Saudi Arabia even after their 
horrifying murder of United States resident and journalist 
Jamal Khashoggi.
    These waivers have most frequently benefited the United 
Arab Emirates (UAE), which had 280 former United States 
Military on their payroll during that timeframe. Our 
investigation even found four people who were approved to work 
for entities owned by the Chinese Government.
    We have several recommended reforms in my written 
testimony, but there should be no waivers for former U.S. 
military personnel going to work for countries identified by 
the State Department as guilty for a pattern of human rights 
violations, or which are our country's rivals, and finally, 
ownership of defense stocks by senior officials.
    Currently, only acquisition officials are banned from 
owning stock in the top ten defense companies. But until a few 
years ago, this Committee, the Senate Armed Services Committee, 
required every nominee to divest all stock from any defense 
contractor before being confirmed.
    I have brought with me two examples of ethics agreements 
from officials who agreed to this committee's requirements in 
2010 and 2014 to divest from and not invest in any company 
identified as a DOD contractor as a condition of their 
confirmation.
    In the short term, I encourage the Committee to revive that 
rule, but Congress should codify a more expansive plan. If the 
Congress does accomplish this suite of reforms, it will 
increase public confidence in the integrity of the DOD, and 
more importantly, it will improve our military readiness and 
capability, and we at POGO would be thrilled to help you do so.
    [The prepared statement of Ms. Danielle Brian follows:]

                  Prepared Statement by Danielle Brian
    Chairwoman Warren and Ranking Member Scott, thank you for inviting 
me to testify today. The subject of this hearing is one of the primary 
reasons my organization was created.
    Founded in 1981, the Project On Government Oversight (POGO) is a 
nonpartisan independent watchdog that investigates and exposes waste, 
corruption, abuse of power, and when the government fails to serve the 
public or silences those who report wrongdoing. We champion reforms to 
achieve a more effective, ethical, and accountable Federal Government 
that safeguards constitutional principles.
    We made our mark in the 1980's by investigating Pentagon waste, 
fraud, and abuse, spotlighting overspending on $640 toilet seats, 
$7,600 coffee makers, and $435 hammers.\1\ Four decades later, things 
have mostly changed for the worse and this hearing on public integrity 
at the Department of Defense (DOD) could not have come at a better 
time. Congress can and must act to improve the laws that are meant to 
ensure policymakers spend tax dollars pragmatically and are acting in 
the interest of our national security.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \1\ Project On Government Oversight, Defense Waste and Fraud 
Camouflaged as Reinventing Government (September 1999), 5, https://
docs.pogo.org/report/1999/report-19990901.pdf.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Improving these laws will require tackling three legal--but 
corrupting--phenomena that skew public policy for personal and private 
gain. We have practical solutions for each of these persistent 
problems. First, close remaining loopholes to slow the revolving door 
between the Pentagon and defense companies. Second, end the rubberstamp 
approval of former military personnel working for foreign governments, 
and third, mitigate the risk and appearance of financial conflicts of 
interest for senior Pentagon officials.
    slow the revolving door between pentagon and defense contractors
    The United States spends more on defense than the next nine 
highest-spending countries combined, including our principal rivals, 
Russia and China.\2\ The military budget proposal submitted by the 
Biden administration for 2024 totals some $842 billion and stands to be 
the largest appropriations of military funds since 1960.\3\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \2\ ``The United States Spends More on Defense than the Next 9 
Countries Combined,'' Peter G. Peterson Foundation, accessed April 21, 
2023, https://www.pgpf.org/blog/2022/06/the-united-states-spends-more-
on-defense-than-the-next-9-countries-combined.
    \3\ Department of Defense, ``Department of Defense Releases the 
President's Fiscal Year 2024 Defense Budget,'' Press Release, March 13, 
2023, https://www.defense.gov/News/Releases/Release/Article/3326875/
department-of-defense-releases-the-presidents-fiscal-year-2024-defense-
budget/; ``U.S. Military Spending/Defense Budget 1960-2023,'' 
Macrotrends, accessed April 21, 2023, https://www.macrotrends.net/
countries/USA/united-states/military-spending-defense-budget.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    This money represents the intent of this Congress to maintain the 
most capable and advanced military in the world. But it also presents 
opportunities for waste, mismanagement, and predatory abuse. Recent 
history has borne this out time and again. Now is the time to eliminate 
opportunities for corruption. Congress took important steps to address 
this problem in the National Defense Authorization Acts (NDAAs) for 
fiscal years 2018 and 2022,\4\ but more work must be done to close the 
remaining loopholes.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \4\ 10 U.S.C., Chapter 49, ``Miscellaneous Prohibitions and 
Penalties,'' Notes, https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/
subtitle-A/part-II/chapter-49.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The past 20 years of major weapons systems development from the 
Pentagon and its industry partners has been a litany of failures. The 
F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, the littoral combat ship, the Zumwalt-class 
destroyer, and the Ford-class supercarrier have all suffered major and 
costly challenges.\5\ These systems have cost American taxpayers 
hundreds of billions of dollars, and they still don't fulfill their 
intended missions even after years of delays and retrofits.\6\ These 
setbacks have burdened our armed forces with decades of opportunity 
costs. Taxpayer money could instead have gone to systems that actually 
work as intended.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \5\ Geoff Wilson, Project On Government Oversight, ``Ushering in a 
New Generation of Accountable Defense Spending,'' Baker's Dozen: 
Thirteen Crucial Issues Policymakers Can Act on Now, February 2, 2023, 
https://www.pogo.org/report/2023/02/bakers-dozen-thirteen-crucial-
issues-policymakers-can-act-on-now#heading-9.
    \6\ Dan Grazier, ``The F-35 and Other Legacies of Failure,'' 
Project On Government Oversight, March 19, 2021, https://www.pogo.org/
analysis/2021/03/the-f-35-and-other-legacies-of-failure.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Defense companies and their lobbyists, rather than practical 
military strategy, have guided significant budgetary and strategic 
decisions by Congress, over the objections of top military leaders. And 
it is no secret that the defense industry owes this success in no small 
part to defense companies having hired former military and civilian DOD 
personnel to shape the lobbying efforts. According to OpenSecrets, in 
the last Presidential election cycle in 2020 the defense industry spent 
over $100 million on lobbying.\7\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \7\ OpenSecrets, ``Defense Summary,'' https://www.opensecrets.org/
industries/indus.php? Ind=D.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    A 2018 POGO report identified 380 instances of high-ranking former 
Pentagon officials who transitioned from the DOD to private companies 
between 2008 and 2018 and almost immediately became lobbyists, board 
members, executives, or consultants for defense contractors. These 
instances included work performed for defense contractors by 25 former 
generals, nine former admirals, 43 former lieutenant generals, and 23 
former vice admirals.\8\ Nearly 90 percent of these former officials 
bgecame registered lobbyists, where the operational skill is influence-
peddling.\9\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \8\ Project On Government Oversight, Brass Parachutes, 9, https://
s3.amazonaws.com/docs. pogo.org/report/2018/
POGO_Brass_Parachutes_DOD_Revolving_Door_Report_2018-11-05.pdf.
    \9\ Project On Government Oversight, Brass Parachutes, 9-10 [see 
note 8].
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    In clashes between industry lobbying and military judgment, the 
lobbyists all too often win. We saw this in 2022 when the Navy 
attempted to retire nine Freedom-class littoral combat ships, with 
Chief of Naval Operations Admiral Mike Gilday telling the Senate 
Appropriations Subcommittee on Defense that he ``refused to put an 
additional dollar against that system.'' \10\ He also said that, while 
keeping these ships in service would allow for a ``larger Navy,'' it 
would also be a Navy that was ``less capable, less lethal, and less 
ready.'' \11\ The Navy justified cutting these ships, which have faced 
significant problems with their powerplants as well as failures to 
develop weapons and systems for their hulls, by showing that their 
early retirements would save some $4.3 billion over the next 5 years 
that could be used to support more pressing Navy priorities.\12\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \10\ Senate Appropriations Subcommittee on Defense Hearing on the 
fiscal year 2023 Navy and Marine Corps Budget Request, 117th Cong. (May 
26, 2022) (Remarks of Admiral Mike Gilday, Chief of Naval Operations) 
https://www.navy.mil/Press-Office/Testimony/display-testimony/Article/
3046510/senate-appropriations-subcommittee-on-defense-holds-hearing-on-
the-fiscal-year/.
    \11\ Senate Appropriations Subcommittee on Defense Hearing, Remarks 
of Admiral Mike Gilday [see note 10].
    \12\ Eric Lipton, ``The Pentagon Saw a Warship Boondoggle. Congress 
Saw Jobs,'' New York Times, February 4, 2023, https://www.nytimes.com/
2023/02/04/us/politics/littoral-combat-ships-lobbying.html.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    In a recent investigation, the New York Times reported that ``A 
consortium of players with economic ties to the ships--led by a trade 
association whose members had just secured contracts worth up to $3 
billion to do repairs and supply work on them--mobilized to pressure 
Congress to block the plan, with phone calls, emails and visits to 
Washington to press lawmakers to intervene.'' \13\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \13\ Lipton, ``The Pentagon Saw a Warship Boondoggle. Congress Saw 
Jobs'' [see note 12].
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Lobbying efforts like this are often led by former career DOD 
officials and retired military officers, who have managed to turn their 
military connections and flag ranks into lucrative careers in the 
private sector. That was the case with the littoral combat ships. A 
nearly 20-year retired Navy veteran, Timothy Spratto, led the lobbying 
effort to thwart their retirement. At the time, Mr. Spratto was general 
manager of BAE Systems' Jacksonville, Florida, shipyard where the 
littoral combat ships on the East Coast are serviced and which recently 
won part of a $1.3 billion Navy contract to do repairs on the 
vessels.\14\ According to his LinkedIn page, Spratto's last role before 
leaving the Navy was ``Assistant Chief of Staff, Material Readiness and 
Assessments, Naval Surface Forces Atlantic''--the exact sort of 
position he would later lobby to gin up support for underperforming 
ships.\15\ According to the New York Times, the lobbying effort started 
almost immediately after the Navy announced its plans to retire nine of 
the ships, ``with a burst of phone calls to Capitol Hill, local 
officials in Jacksonville, and the Navy's ship-maintenance division.'' 
\16\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \14\ Lipton, ``The Pentagon Saw a Warship Boondoggle. Congress Saw 
Jobs'' [see note 12].
    \15\ ``LinkedIn page for Timothy Spratto,'' LinkedIn, accessed 
April 18, 2023, https://www.linkedin.com/in/tbspratto/.
    \16\ Lipton, ``The Pentagon Saw a Warship Boondoggle. Congress Saw 
Jobs'' [see note 12].
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Mr. Spratto was not alone in this effort. Take, for example, 
retired Rear Admiral James A. Murdoch, who served as program executive 
officer for the littoral combat ship program from 2011 to 2013. After 
his retirement, he became the international business development 
director for ship and aviation systems at Lockheed Martin, one of the 
prime contractors that built the failing Freedom-class littoral combat 
ships.\17\ Or retired Captain Tony Parisi, who penned an op-ed in 2022 
for Real Clear Defense titled ``Don't Give Up the Ship,'' which 
defended continuing the littoral combat ship program but failed to 
mention that he was a member of the General Dynamics team responsible 
for training crews to operate the ships.\18\ While writing an op-ed 
would not trigger post-employment restrictions even if they had covered 
Captain Parisi (whose rank placed him below their coverage), this 
contribution to the fight illustrates how the defense industry can 
deploy the credibility of prior military service to sway public 
opinion. In the end, this lobbying effort was successful in undermining 
the Navy and preventing five of the ships from being retired.\19\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \17\ Project On Government Oversight, Brass Parachutes, 19 [see 
note 8].
    \18\ Lipton, ``The Pentagon Saw a Warship Boondoggle. Congress Saw 
Jobs'' [see note 12].
    \19\ Lipton, ``The Pentagon Saw a Warship Boondoggle. Congress Saw 
Jobs'' [see note 12].
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Existing restraints on lobbying the Pentagon after leaving 
government are clearly inadequate. Despite the reforms Congress has 
made in recent years, none of the previously mentioned activities would 
have been prohibited.\20\ This is either because post-government 
employment restrictions don't apply to most military personnel below an 
O-7 rank and most civilian personnel below the Senior Executive Service 
level; the ban that applied to Rear Admiral Murdoch was only for 1 
year; or because an activity like writing an op-ed isn't considered 
lobbying and the prohibitions only apply to narrowly defined lobbying 
activities and contacts.\21\ These weak guardrails risk prioritizing 
the financial interests of former senior officials and arms contractors 
over our national security.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \20\ 10 U.S.C., Chapter 49, ``Miscellaneous Prohibitions and 
Penalties,'' Notes [see note 4].
    \21\ 10 U.S.C., Chapter 49, ``Miscellaneous Prohibitions and 
Penalties,'' Notes [see note 4].
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Congress should strengthen the post-government employment 
restrictions for former uniformed and civilian defense personnel. And 
those restrictions should not be limited to former contracting 
officials, who are not the only individuals influencing the 
Department's acquisition decisions. Senior officials make strategic 
decisions that can influence the Department's budgetary requests, 
contracting plans, and policy formulation. Officials with no direct 
role in procurement activities make recommendations and decisions that 
can shape departmental needs that drive acquisition decisions. While 
the final call on which bidder receives a particular contract award may 
not be theirs to make, these officials can influence the criteria that 
will ultimately determine which companies are eligible to compete for 
contracts or are likely to succeed. Other officials can shape day-to-
day decisions affecting the delivery of contracted services or the 
evaluation of performance.
    In 2017, information technology expert Deap Ubhi helped shape the 
early direction of what would become the Joint Enterprise Defense 
Infrastructure (JEDI) contract. A civilian worker for the Pentagon, Mr. 
Ubhi did market research for the JEDI project in his last 2 months on 
the job. He eventually recused himself from the project and, 2 weeks 
later, went to work for Amazon in October 2017.\22\ When his 
participation in the project and employment negotiations with Amazon 
came to light in 2018,\23\ the contract, which DOD had awarded to 
Amazon, was upended.\24\ Another bidder, Oracle, challenged the award. 
That revolving door case was among the reasons the contract bid was the 
subject of costly protests, court-ordered holds and investigations, and 
finally cancellation of the contract.\25\ The reforms Congress later 
passed in 2021 to extend recusals would have prevented this 
calamity.\26\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \22\ Karen Weise and Thomas Kaplan, ``Giant Military Contract Has a 
Hitch: A Little-Known Entrepreneur,'' New York Times, March 20, 2019, 
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/20/technology/military-contract-deap-
ubhi.html.
    \23\ Aaron Gregg, `` `Once an Amazonian, always an Amazonian': 
Former Pentagon official's business ties draw scrutiny,'' Washington 
Post, December 18, 2018, https://www. washingtonpost. com/business/
2018/12/18/once-an-amazonian-always-an-amazonian-former- pentagon-
officials-business-ties-draw-scrutiny/.
    \24\ Alex Emmons, ``Amazon Offered Job to Pentagon Official 
Involved with $10 Billion Contract it Sought,'' Intercept, June 3, 
2019, https://theintercept.com/2019/06/03/amazon-defense-department-
jedi-contract/.
    \25\ Aaron Gregg and Jay Greene, ``Fierce backlash against Amazon 
paved the way for Microsoft's stunning Pentagon cloud win,'' Washington 
Post, October 30, 2019, https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/
10/30/fierce-backlash-against-amazon-paved-way-microsofts-stunning-
pentagon-cloud-win/.
    \26\ 10 U.S.C., Chapter 49, ``Miscellaneous Prohibitions and 
Penalties,'' Notes [see note 4].
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Two additional examples also stand out. As undersecretary of 
defense for acquisition, technology, and logistics, Edward ``Pete'' 
Aldridge was head of the Defense Acquisition Board that made the 
controversial decision to pursue procurement of the Lockheed Martin F/
A-22 fighter jet. Two months after he ensured Lockheed would be awarded 
the contract, he secured a position on the company's board of 
directors.\27\ The Procurement Integrity Act only bars those directly 
involved with contracting decisions at a granular level from receiving 
compensation from a contractor for a year after they leave government. 
It fails to cover higher level officials whose decisions steer the 
director of contracting efforts.\28\ When Mr. Aldridge left DOD to work 
for Lockheed Martin, a spokesperson for the company emphasized that the 
compensation restriction did not apply to him. As a director, Mr. 
Aldridge received a $75,000 retainer and $75,000 in Lockheed Martin 
stock.\29\ After only 6 years then-Secretary of Defense Robert Gates 
canceled production of the F-22, stating, ``The more they buy of stuff 
we don't need, the less we have available for the stuff we do need. . . 
It ain't a complicated problem.'' \30\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \27\ Renae Merle, ``Lockheed Adds Director Fresh from the 
Pentagon,'' Washington Post, June 27, 2003, https://
www.washingtonpost.com/archive/business/2003/06/27/lockheed-adds-
director-fresh-from-the-pentagon/1f65541e-56c7-42be-892b-d2c416f33739/.
    \28\ 41 U.S.C. Sec.  2104 (2023), https://www.law.cornell.edu/
uscode/text/41/2104.
    \29\ /Merle, ``Lockheed Adds Director Fresh From the Pentagon'' 
[see note 27].
    \30\ Greg Jaffe, ''Gates Makes Impassioned Case for Ending F-22 
Program,'' Washington Post, July 17, 2009, https://
www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/16/AR200907 
1603872.html.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    So far, we've given examples from the Navy and Air Force to 
illustrate the weaknesses of current revolving door restrictions on 
senior officials. Let us round things out with one from the Army. Army 
Lt. General David K. Heebner was a top assistant to Army Chief of Staff 
General Eric Shinseki. Three months before Heebner retired, the Army 
announced it was ``prepared to move to an all wheel formation as soon 
as technology permits,'' in a shift away from tracked vehicles. General 
Dynamics, which manufactures the wheeled Stryker, was the beneficiary 
of this new vision, essentially putting United Defense, which produced 
tracked vehicles, out of the running. Just 1 month after the Army 
announced the plan to procure more wheeled vehicles, General Dynamics 
revealed that it had selected Lt. General Heebner to be its senior vice 
president of planning and development.\31\ While the Stryker remains in 
service, the battle in Ukraine has demonstrated the benefit of having 
tracked vehicles for the purpose of off-road mobility.\32\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \31\ Revolving Door Working Group, ``The Government-to-Industry 
Revolving Door,'' 32 [see note 26].
    \32\ Lara Seligman, Lee Hudson, and Paul McLeary, ``Pentagon weighs 
sending Stryker combat vehicles to Ukraine,'' Politico, January 9, 
2023, https://www.politico.com/news/2023/01/09/pentagon-stryker-combat-
vehicles-ukraine-00077083.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The law did not prevent these former senior officials from going to 
work for these companies. Additional restrictions Congress later 
enacted also would not have prevented these trips through the revolving 
door. Congress must do more. There is no time to delay in making the 
necessary reforms to give the public confidence that our weapons 
procurement decisions and military budget are crafted with integrity 
and put genuine national security needs first.
    Very real national security challenges face us today, but not all 
of them need high-tech answers or the investment of hundreds of 
billions of dollars in exquisite new weapons systems. It is critical 
that lawmakers do all in their power to ensure that decisions regarding 
the largest part of our annual discretionary spending, on which our 
national security depends, are made without bias or undue influence 
from corporate or self-interests.
    In 2017, lawmakers included a provision strengthening revolving 
door restrictions on senior Defense Department officials in Section 
1045 of the fiscal year 2018 NDAA.\33\ That provision expanded post-
government restrictions related to lobbying for military officers at 
the O-7 level and above, as well as their civilian counterparts in 
Senior Executive Service and Executive Schedule positions. Except for 
the secretary, these officials were previously covered by a 1-year 
restriction on communicating with, or appearing before, their former 
employing components of the Defense Department.\34\ (The secretary was 
already covered by a longer and broader restriction.) The new provision 
expanded the scope of the restriction to cover contacts with any part 
of the Department--not just the former employing components--and to 
cover behind-the-scenes work, such as research and preparation for 
lobbying contacts.\35\ For officials at the O-9 level and above, as 
well as civilians at Executive Schedule Level III and above, the new 
provision also extended the length of the restriction to 2 years.\36\ 
POGO supported this important legislation.\37\ We applauded its passage 
as a remarkable advancement in protecting the government against former 
officials seeking undue influence over the government on behalf of 
their new employers and clients.\38\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \33\ 10 U.S.C., Chapter 49, ``Miscellaneous Prohibitions and 
Penalties'' [see note 4].
    \34\ 18 U.S.C. Sec.  207(c) (2023), https://www.law.cornell.edu/
uscode/text/18/207. Regulations of the Office of Government Ethics 
designate various components of the Department of Defense as separate 
agencies for the purpose of applying the statutory post-employment 
restrictions only to communications and appearances before the 
component that previously employed a former senior or very senior 
employee. 5 C.F.R. pt. 2641, app. B, https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/
text/5/appendix-B_to_part_2641.
    \35\ 10 U.S.C., Chapter 49, ``Miscellaneous Prohibitions and 
Penalties'' [see note 4].
    \36\ 10 U.S.C., Chapter 49, ``Miscellaneous Prohibitions and 
Penalties'' [see note 4].
    \37\ Daniel Van Schooten, Mandy Smithberger, and Scott Amey, ``POGO 
Tells National Defense Authorization Act Conferees to Prioritize Troops 
and Taxpayers, Not Contractors,'' Project On Government Oversight, 
October 13, 2017, https://www.pogo.org/letter/2017/10/pogo-tells-
national-defense-authorization-act-conferees-to-prioritize-troops-and-
taxpayers-not-contractors.
    \38\ Scott Amey, ``Defense Lobbying Ban Might Drain the Pentagon 
Swamp,'' Project On Government Oversight, March 12, 2018, https://
www.pogo.org/analysis/2018/03/defense-lobbying-ban-might-drain-
pentagon-swamp.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    However, established interests inside the Pentagon had a different 
reaction. The Department dragged its feet on implementing the law for 
over 2 years, stalling until March 2020 before releasing a policy. \39\ 
Even before issuing this policy, the Pentagon requested a legislative 
rollback that would strip the behind-the-scenes lobbying restriction 
and narrow the scope of the no-contact ban to only the former 
official's former employing component.\40\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \39\ Office of the General Counsel of the Department of Defense, 
DOD Instruction 1000.32, ``Prohibition of Lobbying Activity by Former 
DOD Senior Officials,'' March 26, 2020, https://irp.fas.org/DODdir/DOD/
i1000_32.pdf.
    \40\ Katie Porter and Jackie Speier, ``The Pentagon's Proposal to 
Fill the Swamp,'' Lawfare, June 10, 2020, https://www.lawfareblog.com/
pentagons-proposal-fill-swamp.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    POGO and other watchdogs objected to this effort to weaken 
government ethics in the DOD, and the measure failed.\41\ However, 
Pentagon leaders may try again. If they do, Congress should reject the 
rollback.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \41\ John M. Donnelly, ``Pentagon Looks to Undo Parts of McCain 
Anti-Lobbying Law,'' Roll Call, April 14, 2020, https://rollcall.com/
2020/04/14/pentagon-looks-to-undo-parts-of-revolving-door-law/.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The fiscal year 2022 NDAA added another ethics restriction, now 
requiring those coming into the Defense Department to recuse for 2 
years from any particular matter involving specific parties in which a 
former employer is a party or represents a party.\42\ The recusal 
obligation should be expanded beyond ``particular matters involving 
specific parties'' to any ``particular matter'' affecting the former 
employer. But we can't stop there.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \42\ 10 U.S.C., Chapter 49, ``Miscellaneous Prohibitions and 
Penalties'' [see note 4].
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Congress should enact several additional commonsense measures to 
slow the revolving door between the Pentagon and the military 
industrial complex and build a more transparent, accountable, and 
capable national security policy.
    First, lawmakers must close remaining loopholes in current ethics 
rules, which give former high-ranking officials room to evade post-
government employment restrictions.\43\ The primary post-government 
employment law, 18 U.S.C. Sec.  207, mainly covers traditional lobbying 
activities (contacts with parts of the Department of Defense). But it 
should cover behind-the-scenes work of all types, to prevent former 
officials from selling their expertise and insider knowledge to defense 
contractors, as well as to remove the temptation of future employment 
prospects for current defense officials making decisions that affect 
contractors.\44\ Another loophole in that law allows the Office of 
Government Ethics to designate separate components of the DOD for 
treatment as distinct Federal agencies, meaning former officials can 
contact any part of the DOD other than their former employing component 
without restriction. While the fiscal year 2018 NDAA may have closed 
this loophole, 18 U.S.C. Sec.  207 should be amended to incorporate 
that change.\45\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \43\ Project On Government Oversight, Brass Parachutes, 11 [see 
note 8].
    \44\ 18 U.S.C. Sec.  207(c) [see note 34].
    \45\ 18 U.S.C. Sec.  207(c) [see note 34]; 5 C.F.R. pt. 2641, app. 
B [see note 34].
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The Procurement Integrity Act imposes a 1-year post-government 
employment bar on a former defense official receiving compensation for 
employment with a defense contractor that holds a contract award worth 
more than $10,000,000.\46\ However, the restriction applies only if the 
former official served in one of several specified procurement-related 
capacities with respect to the contract.\47\ This restriction should be 
expanded to apply to all former senior and very senior employees of the 
Department of Defense in the chain of command of covered procurement 
officials, not just to those who were directly involved in 
procurements. This change would track the concept of a restriction 
applying to certain matters under a former employee's ``official 
responsibility,'' which is used in 18 U.S.C. Sec.  207(a)(2). The 
prohibition as to employers should apply to all divisions, affiliates, 
and subcontractors of a contractor, and language in the law making it 
applicable to work as a ``consultant'' should be amended to explicitly 
refer to attorneys, lobbyists, and other representatives or advisors to 
defense contractors. \48\ The loopholes in these restrictions leave 
room for defense contractors to stack the decks in their favor by 
bringing former high-ranking officials onto their boards and into 
executive suite offices, or by otherwise engaging in advocacy that has 
the impact of lobbying but is not explicitly banned.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \46\ 41 U.S.C Sec.  2104(a)(1) [see note 28].
    \47\ 41 U.S.C Sec.  2104(a)(1) [see note 28].
    \48\ 41 U.S.C Sec.  2104(a) [see note 28].
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Second, Congress should extend the post-government ban on lobbying 
the DOD. For generals, admirals, and career members of the Senior 
Executive Service, this restriction should last 4 years; for political 
appointees at the Senior Executive Service level and above, the 
restriction should last either 4 years or until the end of the 
Presidential administration, whichever is longer. As discussed 
previously, the recent reforms extended that ban to 2 years for former 
military officials at the O-9 level and above and their civilian 
counterparts. But a 2-year ban on lobbying the Department of Defense 
should also apply to former military officials at the O-7 and O-8 
levels, and their civilian counterparts in Senior Executive Service and 
Executive Schedule positions.
    Presidents George H.W. Bush, Bill Clinton, Barack Obama, Donald J. 
Trump, and Joe Biden all issued ethics Executive Orders or standards of 
conduct at the start of their presidencies, addressing these ethics 
issues for their administration. Presidents Clinton and Trump extended 
the post-government employment lobbying ban on their appointees to 5 
years, and President Biden extended the lobbying ban on his appointees 
to 2 years or the duration of his administration, whichever is 
longer.\49\ It is time for Congress to codify what the public clearly 
wants from their government.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \49\ Project On Government Oversight, ``Comparing Ethics Orders: 
Biden's Is on Top, But it Could be Stronger,'' January 28, 2021, 
https://www.pogo.org/resource/2021/01/comparing-ethics-orders-bidens-
is-on-top-but-it-could-be-stronger.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    We are well aware of the objection that expanding post-employment 
restrictions would make it impossible for former Pentagon officials to 
find post-government work. But there are terrific examples of senior 
government officials finding lucrative work in the private sector by 
leveraging their management experience without exploiting the 
relationships they developed inside the government. One example is the 
Bush administration's Deputy Secretary of Energy Kyle McSlarrow, who 
went on to run the National Cable and Telecommunications Association 
(now known as NCTA--The Internet & Television Association) after 
leaving government.\50\ Other famous examples include former Secretary 
of Defense Robert Gates, who became the president of the Boy Scouts of 
America and then chancellor of William & Mary after leaving the 
government.\51\ There's also former Secretary of State, Defense, and 
Army Chief of Staff George C. Marshall, who served as president of the 
American Red Cross and chairman of the American Battle Monuments 
Commission.\52\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \50\ ``Kyle McSlarrow, Senior Vice President, TPX Business Planning 
and Development, Comcast Cable,'' Comcast, accessed April 18, 2023, 
https://corporate.comcast.com/news-information/leadership-overview/
kyle-mcslarrow.
    \51\ Erin Zagursky, ``Robert M. Gates to be reappointed as W&M 
Chancellor,'' William & Mary News Archive, September 20, 2018, https://
www.wm.edu/news/stories/2018/robert-m.-gates-to-be-reappointed-as-wm-
chancellor.php.
    \52\ The George C. Marshall Foundation, ``Marshall and the Red 
Cross,'' September 22, 2017, https://www.marshallfoundation.org/
articles-and-features/marshall-and-the-red-cross/; American Battle 
Monuments Commission, ``History,'' https://www.abmc.gov/about-us/
history.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Third, Congress should require defense contractors to certify that 
their employees are in compliance with the requirements of Section 1045 
of the NDAA for fiscal year 2018.\53\ Specifically, Congress should 
enact a law mandating that the secretary of defense issue regulations 
requiring each offeror that submits a bid or proposal in response to a 
solicitation issued by the DOD to include in such bid or proposal a 
representation that all covered individuals receiving compensation from 
such offeror are in compliance with the requirements of that section. 
The Government Accountability Office recommended in 2021 that the DOD 
issue regulations containing this requirement, and the DOD agreed with 
the recommendation and committed to do so.\54\ There is no reason 
Congress should not make this certification a statutory requirement.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \53\ 10 U.S.C., Chapter 49, ``Miscellaneous Prohibitions and 
Penalties'' [see note 4].
    \54\ Government Accountability Office, Post-Government Employment 
Restrictions: DOD Could Further Enhance Its Compliance Efforts Related 
to Former Employees Working for Defense Contractors, GAO-21-104311 
(2021) Recommendations, https://www.gao.gov/products/gao-21-104311.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Finally, Congress should increase transparency regarding government 
ethics compliance by current and former defense officials. Congress has 
mandated that the DOD issue written guidance on post-government 
employment restrictions to departing senior and very senior employees 
and retain that guidance in the After Government Employment Advice 
Repository, but the public has little access to that guidance.\55\ 
Congress should require the DOD to make that guidance public by posting 
it in a centralized data base on the website of the Office of 
Government Ethics.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \55\ ``Defense Federal Acquisition Regulation Supplement; Senior 
DOD Officials Seeking Employment with Defense Contractors'' (DFARS Case 
2008-D007), 74 Fed. Reg. 59913 (November 19, 2009), https://
www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/FR-2009-11-19/pdf/E9-27849.pdf.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    This is data that is already collected and processed by government 
administrators, following a congressional mandate in 2008.\56\ 
Furthermore, this information is not private or classified, and can be 
accessed by a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request or by some 
cursory searching on websites like LinkedIn. POGO has maintained a 
similar ``proof of concept'' data base to demonstrate a relatively 
simple and inexpensive way to strengthen Federal contractor 
accountability.\57\ The United Kingdom also maintains a public data 
base for its former appointees and government officials.\58\ The public 
has a strong interest in seeing the formal ethics opinions in DOD's 
secret data base. These opinions are the first line of defense against 
intentional or inadvertent misconduct by covered former DOD officials, 
and their publication would go a long way toward assuring taxpayers 
that military procurement decisions are being made based on merit and 
not preferential treatment.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \56\ 74 Fed. Reg. 59913 [see note 56].
    \57\ ``Pentagon Revolving Door Data base,'' Project On Government 
Oversight, last modified January 31, 2023, https://www.pogo.org/data 
base/pentagon-revolving-door.
    \58\ Cabinet Office, ``Business Appointment Rules Advice,'' last 
updated April 5, 2023, https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/
cabinet-office-business-appointment-rules-advice.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Along the same lines, we recommend releasing other ethics records 
pertaining to top political appointees in the DOD and other agencies on 
the Office of Government Ethics' website. While the public can request 
these records under the Freedom of Information Act or, in some cases, 
under government ethics laws, practical obstacles limit public access 
to these records. Because the public has no way of knowing when the 
government has issued an ethics waiver, for example, a member of the 
public would not know to request a copy of the waiver or where to file 
the request. Obtaining other records, like ethics screening 
arrangements, through FOIA requests is a slow process that, in many 
cases, can only be employed effectively through costly litigation.
    But the public's need to know when the government is excusing 
officials from compliance with ethics laws and regulations or how the 
government is implementing recusals outweighs any interest an 
individual official may have in keeping such matters hidden from the 
public. A law mandating the creation of a centralized data base could 
exclude records containing classified information or records of 
individual ethics counseling, other than legally mandated issuances 
like the post-employment guidance in the After Government Employment 
Advice Repository.\59\ Therefore, the increased transparency and public 
accountability would not come at any cost to government effectiveness.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \59\ 74 Fed. Reg. 59913 [see note 56].
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    We think that it is important to close this section by noting that 
U.S. military personnel have complied with more serious restrictions 
than what we are proposing in more demanding times than these. U.S. 
Navy and Marine Corps personnel were barred from being employed by Navy 
contractors under U.S. law from 1896 into the 1960's.\60\ That broad 
restriction specified, ``No payment shall be made from appropriations 
made by Congress to any officer in the Navy or Marine Corps on the 
Active or retired list while such officer is employed by any person or 
company furnishing naval supplies or war material to the Government.'' 
\61\ Despite this ban, the U.S. Navy and Marine Corps underwent an 
incredible technological and doctrinal modernization that allowed them 
to claim victory in the two largest wars ever fought.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \60\ 10 U.S.C. Sec.  6112 was repealed by Pub. L. 87-649, 
Sec. 14c(36), September 7, 1962, 76 Stat. 501, https://
uscode.house.gov/statviewer.htm'volume=76&page=501.
    \61\ 34 U.S.C. Sec.  883, 1896, https://tile.loc.gov/storage-
services/service/ll/uscode/uscode1925-00103/uscode1925-001034016/
uscode1925-001034016.pdf.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The revolving door has been a growing problem for a long time. The 
Government Accountability Office has been issuing reports on the 
problems with the DOD revolving door since at least 1986.\62\ POGO has 
also pushed for specific reforms since the 1980's.\63\ We know what the 
problems are. They have been studied, reported on, evaluated, and 
reevaluated. Now is the time for Congress to finish what it has started 
by implementing additional reforms.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \62\ Government Accountability Office, DOD Revolving Door; Many 
Former Personnel Not Reporting Defense-Related Employment, GAO/NSIAD-
86-71 (March 1986), https://www.gao.gov/assets/nsiad-86-71.pdf.
    \63\ Danielle Brian-Bland and Dina Rasor, ``Lies, Half-Truths, and 
Misrepresentations: How the Military Gets Its Money,'' Yale Law & 
Policy Review, Vol. 5, No. 1 (1986): 102-119, https://www.jstor.org/
stable/40239235.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    End Rubberstamp Approval of Former Military Personnel Serving 
Foreign Powers
    The second problem of outside influence we would like to bring to 
Congress's attention involves the influence of foreign governments. In 
the earliest days of the republic, the founders understood the dangers 
of foreign government influence. That is why they took care to enshrine 
a safeguard in the Constitution against foreign influence over 
government officials--the Emoluments Clause. The Emoluments Clause 
prohibits anyone holding ``an office of profit or trust,'' which 
includes retired military personnel and members of the reserves, from 
receiving payments from foreign governments unless Congress 
consents.\64\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \64\ Congressional Research Service, ``Foreign Government 
Employment by Armed Services Retirees,'' IF12276, January 5, 2023, 
https://crsreports.Congress.gov/product/pdf/IF/IF12276/7; Department of 
Defense, Standards of Conduct Office, ``Application of the Emoluments 
Clause to DOD Civilian Employees and military personnel,'' White Paper, 
accessed April 19, 2023, https://dodsoco.ogc.osd.mil/Portals/102/
emoluments_clause_applications.pdf.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Congress has granted limited consent to receive such payments for 
individuals who obtain waivers, first from their employing services and 
then from the Department of State.\65\ The statutory designation of the 
State Department as the final approving authority comes with the duty 
to wield the waiver power responsibly, putting national interests 
before an individual's profit-seeking activities.\66\ But, in practice, 
that is not what State Department officials appear to have done.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \65\ 37 U.S.C. Sec.  908, https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/
37/908.
    \66\ 22 C.F.R. Sec. Sec.  3a.2 and 3a.3 (2023), https://
www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/22/part-3a.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    A POGO investigation, concurrent with an investigation by the 
Washington Post, revealed that the State Department all but 
rubberstamps these approvals. Between April 2010 and August 2020, over 
500 retired and reserve U.S. military personnel received authorization 
to work for foreign countries.\67\ The governments of some of those 
countries are notorious for human rights violations and their 
activities raise questions of potential national security issues.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \67\ Julienne McClure, ``State Dept. Is Quietly Approving Former 
Servicemembers' Work for Foreign Interests. That's a Problem,'' Project 
On Government Oversight, October 18, 2022, https://www.pogo.org/
investigation/2022/10/state-dept-is-quietly-approving-former-
servicemembers-work-for-foreign-interests-thats-a-problem; Craig 
Whitlock and Nate Jones, ``Retired U.S. Generals, Admirals Take Top 
Jobs with Saudi Crown Prince,'' Washington Post, October 18, 2022, 
https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/interactive/2022/
veterans-us-foreign-jobs-saudi- arabia/.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    This is true of the government of Saudi Arabia, one of the top 
employers at issue in these waivers. The State Department has expressed 
concern about the authoritarian government's record of abuses, citing 
``unlawful or arbitrary killings, including extrajudicial killings; 
enforced disappearances; torture and cruel, inhuman, or degrading 
treatment or punishment by government agents; harsh and life-
threatening prison conditions; arbitrary arrest and detention; 
political prisoners or detainees; [and] transnational repression 
against individuals in another country.'' \68\ In 2018, Saudi leaders 
ordered the brutal murder of Jamal Khashoggi, a United States resident 
employed by the Washington Post.\69\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \68\ State Department Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor, 
2022 Country Reports on Human Rights Practices: Saudi Arabia, (2022), 
https://www.State.gov/reports/2022-country-reports-on-human-rights-
practices/saudi-arabia/.
    \69\ Shane Harris, Souad Mekhennet, John Hudson, and Anne Gearan, 
``Turks tell U.S. officials they have audio and video recordings that 
support conclusion Khashoggi was killed,'' Washington Post, October 11, 
2018, https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/turks-
tell-us-officials-they-have-audio-and-video-recordings-that-support-
conclusion-khashoggi-was-killed/2018/10/11/119a119e-cd88-11e8-920f-
dd52e1ae4570_story.html.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    There are also concerns about Saudi Arabia's ties to our 
international rivals. The White House has accused the Saudi Government 
of taking measures to help Russia fund its murderous campaign in 
Ukraine.\70\ The monarchy has also reportedly relied on Russian and 
Chinese negotiators to work toward reestablishing diplomatic ties with 
Syria and Iran.\71\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \70\ Jackie Northam, ``The White House accuses Saudi Arabia of 
aiding Russia and coercing OPEC oil producers,'' NPR, October 13, 2022, 
https://www.npr.org/2022/10/13/1128523146/saudi-arabia-russia-opec-oil-
cut-biden-congress-washington.
    \71\ Summer Said, Benoit Faucon, and Michael Amon, ``Saudi Arabia, 
Syria Close to Resuming Ties in Russia Brokered Talks,'' Wall Street 
Journal, March 23, 2023, https://www.wsj.com/articles/saudi-arabia-
syria-close-to-resuming-ties-in-russia-brokered-talks-a340b817; Abby 
Sewell, ``Saudi Arabia, Syria may restore ties as Mideast Reshuffles,'' 
Associate Press, March 24, 2023, https://apnews.com/article/saudi-
arabia-syria-restore-relations-192c4b2086b34288bdd530e06fc4a32a.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Yet former National Security Advisor James Jones and former head of 
the National Security Agency Keith Alexander, both of whom are retired 
military officers, have served the Saudi monarchy with the State 
Department's blessing.\72\ There is not much higher in the ranks of 
former U.S. Government insiders a foreign power could hope to reach 
than these two individuals.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \72\ Whitlock and Jones, ``Retired U.S. Generals, Admirals Take Top 
Jobs with Saudi Crown Prince'' [see note 68].
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Mr. Jones increased his involvement with the Saudi Government after 
the murder of Mr. Khashoggi.\73\ The killing did not discourage Jones's 
company from applying to do more work for the regime. According to the 
Washington Post, former four-star Air Force General Charles Wald, who 
worked for Mr. Jones, said, ``We asked ourselves, are we basically 
turning a blind eye toward immorality?'' \74\ The answer to that 
question is yes. And the State Department joined them in ignoring that 
immorality.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \73\ Whitlock and Jones, ``Retired U.S. Generals, Admirals Take Top 
Jobs with Saudi Crown Prince'' [see note 68].
    \74\ Whitlock and Jones, ``Retired U.S. Generals, Admirals Take Top 
Jobs with Saudi Crown Prince'' [see note 68].
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Topping even Saudi Arabia as an employer of former U.S. military 
personnel is the United Arab Emirates (UAE). The State Department 
approved nearly 280 waivers permitting former military personnel to 
work for the regime in the UAE.\75\ Over three-quarters of those 
waivers authorized work for EDGE Group or one of its subsidiaries, a 
defense conglomerate owned by the Emirati State. This year, EDGE's CEO, 
Mansour AllMulla, boasted that his company has ``excellent 
relationships with a lot of partners in China, Russia, and with the 
different countries.'' \76\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \75\ McClure, ``State Dept. Is Quietly Approving Former 
Servicemembers' Work for Foreign Interests. That's a Problem'' [see 
note 68].
    \76\ Agnes Helou, ``EDGE Group CEO Talks Acquisitions, Chinese and 
Russian Cooperation and Autonomous Systems,'' Breaking Defense, 
February 21, 2023, https://breakingdefense.com/2023/02/edge-group-ceo-
talks-acquisitions-chinese-and-russian-cooperation-and-autonomous-
systems/.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The State Department has identified a litany of ``significant'' 
human rights violations by the UAE's rulers, including reports of 
arbitrary arrests, torture, and disappearances, as well as harassment 
of human rights organizations.\77\ Despite such concerns, the State 
Department essentially rubberstamped waiver requests from former 
military personal to work on behalf of the UAE.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \77\ State Department Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor, 
2022 Country Reports on Human Rights Practices: United Arab Emirates, 
(2022), https://www.State.gov/reports/2022-country-reports-on-human-
rights-practices/united-arab-emirates/.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Former Defense Secretary James Mattis received one of these 
waivers. That was during a brief gap in Federal employment, between his 
service as a Marine Corps four-star general and his appointment as 
secretary of defense. He did not disclose his work for the Emirati 
Government in the financial disclosure report he filed upon being 
nominated for defense secretary, though a departmental spokesperson 
claims he told the Senate Armed Services Committee about it.\78\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \78\ Mandy Smithberger, ``Generally Concerning,'' Project On 
Government Oversight, August 2, 2017, https://www.pogo.org/
investigation/2017/08/generally concerning.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    As secretary, General Mattis was leading the Department of Defense 
when former President Trump decided to support a blockade of Qatar by 
the UAE.\79\ Whatever position then-Secretary Mattis may have taken 
regarding the blockade behind closed doors, having a former UAE 
military advisor leading our military at that time risked an erosion of 
public confidence in the government's decisions and jeopardized 
relations with America's allies.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \79\ Julian Borger, ``Qatar Blockade Exposes Rifts in Trump 
Administration's `Peculiar' Foreign Policy,'' Guardian, June 24, 2017, 
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jun/24/qatar-blockade-trump-
administration-foreign-policy.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Another example involves Charles Bolden, retired United States 
Marine Corps major general and former administrator of the National 
Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA). While leading NASA in 
2016, then-Administrator Bolden negotiated a cooperation agreement with 
the UAE.\80\ Following his departure from government, the State 
Department authorized him to work as a member of the Emirati Space 
Advisory Committee in 2018. He had expressed his interest in fostering 
collaboration between the U.S. and UAE as early as 2010, so his work on 
the 2016 agreement may have been an earnest effort to pursue legitimate 
policy objectives.\81\ But without greater public awareness of the 
relationships involved or the negotiations, his work for the UAE so 
soon after leaving government creates an appearance problem that 
threatens public trust.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \80\ National Aeronautics and Space Administration, ``NASA, UAE 
Sign Significant Outer Space, Aeronautics Cooperation Agreement,'' 
Press Release 16-058, June 12, 2016, https://www.nasa.gov/press-
release/nasa-uae-sign-significant-outer-space-aeronautics-cooperation-
agreement.
    \81\ McClure, ``State Dept. Is Quietly Approving Former 
Servicemembers' Work for Foreign Interests. That's a Problem'' [see 
note 68].
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    These episodes illustrate the potential for conflicts of interest. 
The State Department's permissive approach to dispensing foreign 
government emolument waivers creates a perverse
    incentive for officials to consider currying favor with foreign 
governments before they leave the military. This temptation could lead 
to misusing their positions in the hopes of reaping rewards after they 
leave their posts. The Washington Post reported that some former top 
officials received six-and seven-figure payments working for foreign 
governments, ``far more than what most American service members earn 
while on Active Duty.'' \82\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \82\ Whitlock and Jones, ``Retired U.S. Generals, Admirals Take Top 
Jobs with Saudi Crown Prince'' [see note 68].
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The effects of these waivers even touches on one of the most hotly 
debated issues in Congress today: the strategic challenge to the United 
States from China. Between April 2010 and August 2020, at least four 
emoluments waivers were approved for former U.S. military personnel to 
work for organizations with ties to China.\83\ This is despite the fact 
that the DOD and Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin have described China 
as ``America's pacing threat,'' with other DOD officials clarifying 
that ``China is the only country that can pose a systemic challenge to 
the United States in the sense of challenging us, economically, 
technologically, politically and militarily.'' \84\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \83\ McClure, ``State Dept. Is Quietly Approving Former 
Servicemembers' Work for Foreign Interests. That's a Problem'' [see 
note 68].
    \84\ Jim Garamone, ``Official Talks DOD Policy Role in Chinese 
Pacing Threat, Integrated Deterrence,'' Department of Defense, June 2, 
2021, https://www.defense.gov/News/News-Stories/Article/Article/
2641068/official-talks-DOD-policy-role-in-chinese-pacing-threat-
integrated-deterrence/.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Beyond the problem of the State Department's permissiveness with 
waivers, there is also the issue of transparency. In theory, the public 
should have access to these waivers to monitor the risks the State 
Department is choosing to create. But it took protracted FOIA 
litigation by both POGO and the Washington Post to secure the release 
of these waivers, with the State Department and the Department of 
Justice fighting against it. If those agencies had put as much effort 
into considering these waivers as they put into keeping them from the 
public, there might be fewer waivers.
    After we prevailed in the FOIA case, the documents still left 
questions unanswered. Many of them were heavily redacted. The 
government redacted names of officials receiving the waivers in 80 
percent of the waivers generally and 98 percent of the waivers for work 
on behalf of the UAE.\85\ Even without redactions, the waivers were 
short on details. In some cases, they identified the employing entity 
but not the foreign country for which the work was to be performed. And 
in cases of firms with numerous clients, identifying the client nation 
from the waiver was often impossible.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \85\ McClure, ``State Dept. Is Quietly Approving Former 
Servicemembers' Work for Foreign Interests. That's a Problem'' [see 
note 68].
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    When highly visible former members of U.S. military leadership 
appear on television, give quotes to reporters, or publish opinion 
pieces, they enjoy the trust of a public that assumes their proven 
loyalty is solely to the interests of our own country. But if they are 
working for a foreign government, or hope to work for one in the 
future, that trust may be misplaced. The public should know of their 
divided interests. Unfortunately, the State Department has left the 
public without tools to identify these conflicts of interest if the 
former officials in question fail to share that information.
    This lack of transparency thwarts public oversight. Without knowing 
the name of a former official being granted a waiver, the public does 
not know what expertise and insider knowledge is being put to use 
abroad. Without knowing which country is buying that former official's 
services, the public cannot gauge the risks created. And without 
knowing what services a former official will provide, the public has no 
way to scrutinize whether divided loyalties could have influenced an 
official's prior work for our own government. These are not risks 
Americans should bear in ignorance.
    But there are things Congress can do to improve the situation. This 
year, POGO published a list of recommendations on how to deter foreign 
influence.\86\ We recommend that Congress:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \86\ Dylan Hedtler-Gaudette, ``How to Deter Foreign Influence and 
Protect Government Integrity,'' Project On Government Oversight, 
February 22, 2023, https://www.pogo.org/resource/2023/02/how-to-deter-
foreign-influence-and-protect-government-integrity.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Enact substantive prohibitions on former government 
officials (including but not limited to the military) seeking and 
obtaining employment with certain problematic foreign countries or 
entities controlled by those countries. The list of prohibited 
employers should include adversaries, serial human rights abusers, 
regimes that do not respect religious freedom, and other authoritarian 
and malign governments and the entities controlled by those 
governments.
      Enact a 5-year ban or a ban that lasts for the duration 
of a president's administration, whichever is longer, on former senior 
and very senior DOD employees covering both representational activity 
and behind-the-scenes assistance to foreign governments, foreign 
political parties, and foreign business entities.
      Require expanded waiver applications to include more 
substantive details and information about potential foreign employers, 
including the precise nature of the role, any preexisting relationships 
or communications between the applicant and the prospective employer, 
compensation, and additional relevant information.
      Require submission of comprehensive waiver application 
data to Congress on a regular basis and make those reports available to 
the public within a reasonable timeframe. This reporting should come 
from the Department of Defense and Department of State, and should 
include complete articulation of the methodology and procedures for 
assessing and rendering decisions on waiver applications.
      Require a retrospective analysis and subsequent report on 
previously approved waivers and any conflict of interest or national 
security concerns that were either flagged at the time and not resolved 
or that were flagged and adjudicated. This report should also 
specifically address any waivers in which the Department of State 
flagged International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR) concerns, what 
the exact nature of those concerns were, and how they were resolved.
      Impose robust financial penalties for those retired and 
reserved officials who violate the law by not obtaining a waiver prior 
to working on behalf of a foreign interest or who have otherwise 
violated the rules in place around seeking employment with foreign 
interests.
      Require the Government Accountability Office to 
periodically audit the emoluments waiver system and its efficacy as 
well as any ongoing concerns around the potential corrupting impact of 
former U.S. Government officials working on behalf of foreign 
interests.
    POGO urges the committee to undertake the work of implementing our 
recommendations by advancing legislation. The American people deserve 
nothing less that the protection these solutions would provide.
    Reduce Risk and Appearance of Financial Conflicts of Interest for 
Senior Pentagon Officials
    The final corrupting phenomenon we recommend Congress address is 
the possibility and the appearance of ongoing financial conflicts of 
interest that exist because of an inadequate ban on stock ownership by 
certain defense officials.
    The law currently prohibits specified defense officials from owning 
or purchasing stocks in the top 10 companies doing business with the 
Pentagon during the previous five fiscal years.\87\ Those 10 companies 
claim a disproportionate chunk of contract awards--over 38 percent. But 
in fiscal year 2022, the top 100 contractors accounted for 61 percent 
of obligated contract dollars.\88\ Most of those companies rely on the 
Pentagon as their largest or, in some cases, only customer.\89\ 
Expanding the ban to cover these 100 companies would significantly 
reduce the risk as well as the perception of conflicts of interest.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \87\ 10 U.S.C. Sec.  988 (2023), https://www.law.cornell.edu/
uscode/text/10/988.
    \88\ Defense and Security Monitor, ``Top 100 Defense Contractors 
2022,'' Forecast International, February 22, 2023, https://
dsm.forecastinternational.com/wordpress/2023/02/22/top-100-defense-
contractors-.
    \89\ ``Top 100 for 2022,'' Defense News, https://
people.defensenews.com/top-100/.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Furthermore, the current prohibition only applies to senior 
acquisition officials. As we mentioned earlier, other senior officials 
who are not designated as acquisition officials can significantly 
impact the fortunes of companies. Their ability to hold stock in 
companies that do business with the DOD damages public faith in the 
Department. Applying the prohibition to more senior officials would 
help restore the public's trust.
    With so much money and the security of the Nation at stake, the 
public deserves to know that legal safeguards are sufficient to prevent 
the temptation of lucrative investment returns from compromising our 
national defense.
    Contractor interactions with defense personnel create risks of 
conflicts of interest, as well as the potential for insider trading 
based on information gleaned from these interactions. There is no way 
for Congress or the public to know how often these risks materialize 
under the current circumstances. This creates an appearance problem for 
the DOD because the public cannot rule out the possibility of conflicts 
of interest and insider trading. Banning more senior officials from 
owning stocks in a wider array of defense contractors can significantly 
reduce both the risks of insider trading and the appearance of these 
possible conflicts.
    This simple measure would bolster public confidence in defense 
programs. Congress should apply the stock ownership prohibition to all 
senior and very senior employees covered by subsections (c) and (d) of 
18 U.S.C. Sec.  207, and expand the current prohibition to the top 100 
defense contractors. Broadening the scope of this stock ownership ban 
to cover more senior officials and more of the top companies working 
with the Pentagon would strengthen the public's faith in the DOD while 
reducing the risks of financial conflicts of interest.
    Senior leaders in the government have ample alternatives for 
investing without jeopardizing national security or public trust, 
including diversified mutual funds, diversified exchange-traded funds, 
and the Thrift Savings Plan's portfolio investments. Demonstrating the 
viability of this approach, this committee used to require nominees for 
Senate-confirmed positions to commit to divesting all defense 
contractor stock in their ethics agreements, and there is no reason to 
believe that this practice affected the quality of Pentagon 
leadership.\90\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \90\ Ethics agreements of Department of Defense nominees used to be 
explicit as to the requirement to divest contractor stocks, a 
requirement we believe came from the policy of the Senate Armed 
Services Committee at the time. See Letter from Robert Work (nominee 
for the position of Deputy Secretary) to Stephen Preston, General 
Counsel and Designated Agency Ethics Official, Department of Defense, 
February 7, 2014, 1 (``During my term of office, neither my spouse nor 
I will invest in any company identified as a Department of Defense 
contractor or any other entity that would create a conflict of interest 
with my Government duties. I understand that if any company in which my 
spouse or I invest enters into a contract with the Department of 
Defense, my spouse or I will be required to divest that interest.''), 
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/23784690-dod-robert-o-work-
2015ea; Letter from Dr. Jonathan Woodson (nominee for the position of 
Assistant Secretary of Defense for Health Affairs) to Jeh Johnson, 
General Counsel and Designated Agency Ethics Official, Department of 
Defense, April 23, 2010 (similar language), https://
www.documentcloud.org/documents/23784697-dod-02542-jonathan-woodson-ea.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
                               conclusion
    Major General Smedley Butler, who twice won the congressional Medal 
of Honor while serving 33 years in the United States Marine Corps, 
wrote after World War I, ``War is a racket. It always has been. It is 
possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most 
vicious. . . It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in 
dollars and the losses in lives. A racket is best described, I believe, 
as something that is not what it seems to the majority of people. Only 
a small `inside' group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the 
benefit of the very few, at the expense of the very many. Out of war a 
few people make huge fortunes.'' \91\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \91\ Smedley D. Butler, War is a Racket, (New York: Round Table 
Press, INC., 1935), 1-2.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Echoing these comments, President Dwight D. Eisenhower warned in 
his 1961 farewell address that ``we must guard against the acquisition 
of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-
industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced 
power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this 
combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should 
take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can 
compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery 
of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and 
liberty may prosper together.'' \92\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \92\ Dwight D. Eisenhower, ``President Dwight D. Eisenhower's 
Farewell Address,'' (speech, the Oval Office, Washington, DC, January 
17, 1961), https://www.archives.gov/milestone-documents/president-
dwight-d-eisenhowers-farewell-address.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    There is too much at stake now to do nothing. This Congress is in a 
position to make a real impact. We urge Congress to pass legislation 
that more effectively slows the revolving door between the Pentagon and 
defense contractors while simplifying the rules; deters the possibility 
of foreign influence by ending the rubberstamp approval of former 
military personnel working for foreign governments; and expands the 
stock ownership prohibition to reduce the risk and perception of 
financial conflicts of interest for senior Pentagon officials.
    Our aspirational American values of government ethics and taxpayer 
accountability are all touched by these reforms. And in a very real 
sense, the strength of our military and our readiness are also directly 
undermined when policymakers make decisions based not on actual need, 
but on what is best for the bottom line of defense contractors. 
Congress should move to ensure that the United States military, the 
servicemembers who wear its uniforms, and the citizens who depend on 
their service are all provided for by a system that prioritizes our 
national security and results over private gains.

      
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Senator Warren. Thank you very much, and it is good to be 
back with you. I am going to recognize myself here for first 
round of questions. Decisions made at the Department of Defense 
and other Federal agencies should be based on one thing and one 
thing only, what is in the best interests of the American 
public.
    But big defense contractors have a different set of 
incentives. They are responsible to their shareholders, and 
that means their job is to make as much as they can in profits. 
Mr. Wilkerson, you have decades of experience in Republican and 
Democratic Administrations, both in uniform at DOD, ultimately, 
as Special Assistant for the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, 
Colin Powell, and as a civilian in the State Department.
    You have seen the relationship between the Federal 
Government and private industry up close and personal. Now, 
there are a lot of different ways that industry seeks to 
influence decisionmaking at the Pentagon, and a key one is by 
use of the revolving door.
    So, Mr. Wilkerson, let me just ask you, were you lobbied by 
former colleagues who were hoping to influence your 
decisionmaking when you worked either at the Pentagon or at the 
State Department?
    Mr. Wilkerson. I was at both places. I was asked legally, 
in view of the administrative instructions I received when I 
became Director and Deputy Director of the Marine Corps War 
College in Quantico, Virginia.
    In other words, they came to me after I retired. In State, 
it was quite the opposite. I had to tell them midsentence, as 
it were, stop. Motion my staff assistant come in. ``Escort this 
gentleman out, please, because he is getting ready to make an 
offer of employment to me, and I can't, you know, listen to 
it.''
    That was my administrative instructions when I did my 
financial disclosure form and went through the White House 
background investigation and everything else. I knew that I 
could not entertain an offer for civilian employment post my 
position until I was out of it.
    Senator Warren. I am just making sure I am following you as 
we go through this. You are saying while you were still working 
for the Government, that there were defense contractors who 
were pretty clearly willing to step over the line to try to 
make you an offer of employment while you were still a 
Government employee?
    Mr. Wilkerson. Yes, ma'am.
    Senator Warren. How about on the other side? Were they 
lobbying you about contracts, other things?
    Mr. Wilkerson. Not directly. It is a little bit more 
pernicious than that. For example, when I would sit down at 
lunch with Turki al-Faisal, who at that time was head of Saudi 
intelligence, with David Ignatius from the Washington Post on 
the other side of me, and listen to the conversation at the 
table, I knew there was influence being peddled.
    Was there an exchange of money? I don't know. I myself was 
offered a couple of thousand dollars from the Saudi official in 
order to do this, that, and the other thing, and I told him 
simply, I can't take it. If there is a really, truly pernicious 
relationship with flag officers, and I am sad to say, colonels 
too, I am sad to say it seems to be dominating the Air Force.
    It is everywhere, but in the Air Force, it is really bad. 
It is Saudis, going to work for the Saudis in whatever it is 
they do for the Saudis. I spent a lot of time in this building 
lobbying to get the Senate to pass and then in the House to get 
the House to pass the legislation under the War Powers 
Resolution that would get us out of the war in Yemen.
    We got it passed in both houses. Unfortunately, President 
Trump vetoed it. I encountered people all the time who were 
being influenced by Saudi money that was exercised, if you 
will, in order to keep that vote from being successful.
    Senator Warren. Let me just back it up a little bit. I very 
much appreciate your firsthand account here. To ask you that 
based on your experience in Government, I just want to focus on 
the part about why defense contractors, not just foreign 
governments, but defense contractors like Boeing or Raytheon, 
why is it they want to hire former Pentagon employees to work 
for them as lobbyists?
    What do they see is the benefit? Why is it better to have 
someone who, for instance, they could hire people whose 
profession is lobbying, someone who is lobbying in another 
field, say, for the last 10 years? They don't want that. They 
will take somebody who has never lobbied before, but who has 
been employed at the Pentagon. Why is that?
    Mr. Wilkerson. Well, there are a number of reasons for 
that. I think the No. 1 reason is because they know people who 
are their contemporaries who are in the building, as it were, 
or wherever it happens to be.
    They also know that that individual usually 06, 07, 08, or 
up, has contacts elsewhere in the defense contracting business. 
Now really just about roller decks [contact lists], and they 
know that that person knows how to work those contacts.
    If it is a specific program like the F-35, for example, 
with which I am somewhat familiar, then you get people who are 
very familiar with that on the inside, know all about the lies 
that you have been telling the Federal Government with regard 
to the program, and we will come out and reinforce those lies, 
deceit, if you will, from their position with your business. It 
is a very insidious, pernicious thing.
    Senator Warren. I take it that this is really why Federal 
law has long recognized the importance of trying to insulate 
the work of the Federal Government from the influence of 
private industry. We have been driving in this direction for a 
long time, just not very successfully.
    Federal law requires that Government officials, depending 
on where you are, wait 1 year or 2 years based on their 
seniority before lobbying their former agency. I think this is 
called a cooling off period.
    Ms. Brian, let me ask you about this. You run an 
organization called POGO that works as a nonpartisan Government 
watchdog. Is a 2-year cooling off period sufficient to address 
concerns about conflicts of interest?
    Ms. Brian. It is a step in the right direction, Chairwoman, 
but it is not enough. It has been clear to us that you really 
need to, especially when you are talking about political 
appointees, look to the end of an Administration, the length of 
the time of an Administration, which is often four or even 
longer, depending on if the person is reelected.
    This is something that we have done an analysis of the past 
Presidential ethics orders all the way back to President 
Clinton. Each President has had some form of ethics order, 
often applying as much as a 5-year cooling off period.
    But we do think a 4-year or at least to the end of the 
Administration when it comes to those appointees is important. 
I would love to include for the record, sort of our evaluation 
of those various considerations and how they could be applied 
through legislation.
    Senator Warren. Without objection.
    Ms. Brian. Thank you.

 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                    President    President    President    President    President       POGO
----------------------------------   Biden        Trump        Obama        Bush        Clinton       Proposed
                                                                                                       Ethics
                                  -----------------------------------------------------------------    Reforms
                                                                                                   -------------
                                                                                                       To add
                                                                                                     consistency
                                                                                                         and
                                                                                                     continuity
                                                                                                       to the
                                                                                                      Executive
                                                                                                       Branch
                                                                                                       ethics
         Executive Action                         EO 13770     EO 13490   Restatement    EO 12834     program,
                                     EO 13989   (revoked by  (revoked by  of existing  (revoked by   POGO urges
                                                 EO 13983)    EO 13770)   ethics laws   EO 13184)    Congress to
                                                                                                     codify the
                                                                                                        best
                                                                                                      practices
                                                                                                        from
                                                                                                      previous
                                                                                                    presidential
                                                                                                       ethics
                                                                                                      Executive
                                                                                                       Orders.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post-Government Employment Ban on  Applies to   Applied to   Applied to         None   Applied to   Applies to
 Lobbying as a Registered                 all          all          all                    former   all former
 Lobbyist                          ``appointee  ``appointee  ``appointee                   senior   senior and
                                   s,'' for 2   s,'' for 5     s,'' for                ``appointee  very senior
(or, in the case of POGO's         years after       years          the                s,'' for 5    employees
 proposal, ban on assisting a         leaving                duration of                    years
 registered lobbyist)               office or   Applied to   administrat                                   For
                                      for the   ``lobbying          ion                Applies to   ``appointees
                                   duration of  activities'                              lobbying   '' who are
                                   administrat      ' with   Applied to                any officer      former
                                         ion,   respect to     lobbying                        or    senior or
                                    whichever     a former     contacts                 appointee   very senior
                                   is longer--  appointee's    with any                    of the   employees,
                                     a period   own agency.   ``covered                    former   for 4 years
                                      that is     But this    Executive                appointee's  or for the
                                    longer in   restriction      Branch                own agency   duration of
                                   some cases   was limited  official''                                    the
                                     than the         by a   and any non-              For former   administrati
                                        Obama   definition   career SES                    senior          on,
                                       ethics         that                             appointees   whichever is
                                       pledge   created new                            who served       longer
                                   restriction   loopholes                                 in the
                                                    beyond                              Executive   For a former
                                   Applies to     those in                              Office of       senior
                                     lobbying         the LDA,                                the   employee who
                                     contacts   including a                            President,         is a
                                     with any     loophole                             the 5-year   registered
                                    ``covered          for                               ban also    lobbyist,
                                    Executive   lobbying on                            applied to   applies to
                                       Branch   regulations                            any officer  the former
                                   official''      , which                             or employee      senior
                                   and any non-    largely                                 of any   employee's
                                   career SES   gutted this                            agency for   own agency.
                                                restriction                             which the   For a former
                                   The EO does                                          appointee   very senior
                                   not supply    President                                    had   employee who
                                            a        Trump                             ``personal         is a
                                   definition,   rescinded                                    and   registered
                                       but it   this EO at                             substantial   lobbyist,
                                   appears to   the end of                             responsibil  applies to
                                   be tracking         his                                 ity.''   the former
                                          the   administrat                                         very senior
                                   definition   ion, so it                              President   employee's
                                   in 2 U.S.C.    was less                                Clinton   own agency
                                   Sec.   1602      than 5                              rescinded   and to the
                                                 years for                             this EO at        other
                                                all covered                            the end of    officials
                                                appointees                                    his   identified
                                                                                       administrat  in 18 U.S.C.
                                                                                       ion, so it         Sec.
                                                                                         was less       207(d)
                                                                                           than 5
                                                                                        years for     For both
                                                                                             some       former
                                                                                       appointees       senior
                                                                                                     employees
                                                                                                    and former
                                                                                                    very senior
                                                                                                    employees,
                                                                                                    whether or
                                                                                                           not
                                                                                                    registered
                                                                                                            as
                                                                                                    lobbyists,
                                                                                                    also applies
                                                                                                    to behind-
                                                                                                    the-scenes
                                                                                                    assistance
                                                                                                        to any
                                                                                                    registered
                                                                                                    lobbyist who
                                                                                                    is making or
                                                                                                    preparing to
                                                                                                        make a
                                                                                                    contact the
                                                                                                        former
                                                                                                      employee
                                                                                                      would be
                                                                                                    prohibited
                                                                                                    from making.
                                                                                                    Includes an
                                                                                                     exception
                                                                                                    for public
                                                                                                      interest
                                                                                                     lobbyists
                                                                                                    who are not
                                                                                                    lobbying on
                                                                                                     behalf of
                                                                                                    for-profit
                                                                                                    organization
                                                                                                             s
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ban on Communicating with the      Extends the      Merely     Extended         None         None   2 years for
 Appointee's Former Agency on      1-year post-   restated   the 1-year                             all former
 Behalf of Others with Intent      employment          the        post-                             senior and
 toPInfluence                      restriction    existing   employment                             very senior
                                   applicable   restriction  restriction                            appointees
                                    to senior     under 18   applicable
                                   appointees   U.S.C. Sec.   to former                             During this
                                        under       207(c)       senior                             period, no
                                    18.U.S.C.                appointees                             contact with
                                         Sec.                  under 18                             any part of
                                      207(c),                U.S.C. Sec.                            appointee's
                                        which                   207(c),                                 former
                                      applies                     which                             department
                                   only to the                  applied                             or agency,
                                       former                only to the                            regardless
                                   employee's                    former                                 of OGE
                                   own agency,               employee's                               separate
                                   from 1 year               own agency,                            ``component'
                                   to 2 years                from 1 year                                     '
                                                             to 2 years                             designations
                                   Expands the
                                   restriction
                                   to prohibit
                                   communicati
                                     ons with
                                       senior
                                   White House
                                        staff
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ban on Behind-the-Scenes           For former         None         None         None         None   2-year ban
 Assistance to Lobbyists           appointees                                                       on behind-
                                      who are                                                       the-scenes
                                       former                                                       assistance
                                    senior or                                                           by all
                                   very senior                                                          former
                                   employees,                                                       senior and
                                     a 1-year                                                       very senior
                                       ban on                                                       employees to
                                    assisting                                                       others who
                                      others,                                                              are
                                   behind-the-                                                      undertaking
                                   scenes, in                                                       contacts or
                                   undertaking                                                        lobbying
                                   contacts or                                                      activities
                                     lobbying                                                       that they,
                                   activities                                                       themselves,
                                   that they,                                                         would be
                                   themselves,                                                      prohibited
                                     would be                                                             from
                                   prohibited                                                       undertaking
                                         from
                                   undertaking                                                      Congress has
                                                                                                     done this
                                                                                                       for DOD
                                                                                                    officials,
                                                                                                        and it
                                                                                                     should be
                                                                                                      expanded
                                                                                                    government
                                                                                                    wide. Public
                                                                                                              Law 115-91,
                                                                                                    Sec.   1045
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ban on FormerPAppointee Working    Applies to   Applies to         None         None   Applies to      For all
 for any Foreign Government or            all          all                                    all       former
 Foreign Political Party to        ``appointee  ''appointee                            ``appointee  senior and
 Influence U.S. Policy             s,'' for 2       s,'' a                                 s,'' a   very senior
                                   years after   permanent                              permanent   employees,
                                      leaving          ban                                    ban   for 5 years
                                   government   applicable                             applicable       or the
                                   or for the       to any                                 to any   duration of
                                   duration of     conduct                                conduct          the
                                          the   that would                             that would   administrati
                                   administrat     require                                require          on,
                                         ion,   registratio                            registratio  whichever is
                                    whichever   n under the                            n under the     longer,
                                    is longer      Foreign                                Foreign     covering
                                                    Agents                                 Agents         both
                                                Registratio                            Registratio  representati
                                                  n Act of                               n Act of         onal
                                                      1938                                   1938   activity and
                                                                                                    behind-the-
                                                But did not                            For senior       scenes
                                                     cover                             appointees   assistance
                                                activities                               who were   to foreign
                                                 requiring                             engaged in   governments,
                                                registratio                                 trade      foreign
                                                n under the                            negotiation   political
                                                          LDA                               s, an   parties, and
                                                                                       additional,     foreign
                                                 President                                 ban on     business
                                                     Trump                             behind-the-    entitles
                                                 rescinded                                 scenes
                                                      this                             assistance   This reform
                                                restriction                            to foreign       should
                                                at the end                             governments     include
                                                    of his                              , foreign   prohibitions
                                                term, so it                             political   on working
                                                       was                             parties, or  with certain
                                                effectively                               foreign      foreign
                                                    only a                               business   countries,
                                                prohibition                             entities,     expanded
                                                 until the                             for 5 years   emolument
                                                end of the                                              waiver
                                                administrat                             President   applications
                                                ion and not                               Clinton   , and public
                                                a lifetime                              rescinded    reporting
                                                       ban                                   this   requirements
                                                                                       restriction
                                                                                       at the end
                                                                                           of his
                                                                                       term, so it
                                                                                              was
                                                                                       effectively
                                                                                           only a
                                                                                       prohibition
                                                                                        until the
                                                                                       end of the
                                                                                       administrat
                                                                                       ion and not
                                                                                       a lifetime
                                                                                              ban
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ban on Appointee Accepting Gifts   Applies to   Applies to   Applies to         None         None      For all
 from Lobbyists or Lobbying               all          all          all                             senior and
 Organizations                     ``appointee  ``appointee  ``appointee                            very senior
                                   s,'' ban on  s,'' ban on  s,'' ban on                            employees, a
                                   gifts from   gifts from   gifts from                             ban on gifts
                                   registered   registered   registered                                   from
                                    lobbyists    lobbyists    lobbyists                             lobbyists or
                                   or lobbying  or lobbying  or lobbying                              lobbying
                                   organizatio  organizatio  organizatio                            organization
                                       ns for           ns           ns                             s. The rules
                                   duration of                                                       should be
                                   appointment                                                      expanded to
                                                                                                      apply to
                                                                                                    registered
                                                                                                     lobbyists
                                                                                                    and to any
                                                                                                    for-profit
                                                                                                    corporation
                                                                                                     that is a
                                                                                                    client of a
                                                                                                    registered
                                                                                                    lobbyist to
                                                                                                         avoid
                                                                                                     arbitrary
                                                                                                    distinctions
                                                                                                       between
                                                                                                     companies
                                                                                                       that do
                                                                                                     their own
                                                                                                    lobbying and
                                                                                                     companies
                                                                                                          that
                                                                                                     outsource
                                                                                                      lobbying
 
                                                                                                      A $20 de
                                                                                                    minimis gift
                                                                                                     exception
                                                                                                     should be
                                                                                                    applied to
                                                                                                          ease
                                                                                                    enforcement
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ban on Appointee Handling Matters     For all      For all      For all         None         None      For all
 Involving Former Employers or     ``appointee  ``appointee  ``appointee                            officials,
 Clients                            s'' a ban    s'' a ban    s'' a ban                             for 2 years
                                           on           on           on
                                   participati  participati  participati                               Require
                                      ng in a      ng in a      ng in a                             recusal from
                                   particular   particular   particular                                    any
                                       matter       matter       matter                             ``particular
                                    involving    involving    involving                               matter''
                                   particular   particular   particular                             (not merely
                                   parties in   parties in   parties in                             ``particular
                                    which the    which the    which the                               matter''
                                       former       former       former                              involving
                                   employer or  employer or  employer or                              specific
                                   client is a  client is a  client is a                              parties)
                                     party or     party or     party or                              affecting
                                   represents   represents   represents                                    any
                                     a party,     a party,     a party,                             organization
                                   for 2 years  for 2 years  for 2 years                            , including
                                     from the     from the     from the                                a trade
                                      date of      date of      date of                             organization
                                   appointment  appointment  appointment                            , for which
                                          and          and          and                             the officer
                                     reaching     reaching     reaching                             or employee
                                      back to      back to      back to                             has served
                                    employers    employers    employers                                  as an
                                   and clients  and clients  and clients                             employee,
                                       of the       of the       of the                               officer,
                                    appointee    appointee    appointee                              director,
                                   during the   during the   during the                             trustee, or
                                       2-year       2-year       2-year                                general
                                       period       period       period                             partner in
                                     prior to     prior to     prior to                             the past 2
                                   appointment  appointment  appointment                                 years
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ban on Handling Matters on Which   Applies to           No   Applies to         None         None       N/A to
 the Appointee had Lobbied                all   employment          all                                 public
                                   ``appointee        ban.   ``appointee                              interest
                                         s.''                      s.''                              lobbyists
                                                       The                                            entering
                                     Absent a    following     Absent a                             government
                                   waiver, the  applied to   waiver, the
                                    appointee          all    appointee                                    For
                                           is   ``appointee         was                              corporate
                                   prohibited         s'':   prohibited                              lobbyists
                                         from                      from                             and certain
                                   working for  2 years for  working for                             corporate
                                   any agency   participati  any agency                             representati
                                     that the        ng in     that the                             ves, 2 years
                                    appointee   particular    appointee                                    for
                                      lobbied    matter on      lobbied                             participatin
                                                which they                                                g in
                                   2 years for     lobbied   2 years for                            particular
                                   participati               participati                             matter on
                                        ng in   2 years for       ng in                             which they
                                   particular   participati  particular                             lobbied; 2
                                   matters on    ng in the   matters on                              years for
                                   which they     specific   which they                             participatin
                                      lobbied   issue area      lobbied                               g in the
                                                  in which                                            specific
                                   2 years for         the   2 years for                            issue area
                                   participati  particular   participati                            in which the
                                    ng in the       matter    ng in the                                 matter
                                     specific   falls, but     specific                               falls; 2
                                   issue area     rendered   issue area                              years for
                                     in which         this     in which                             seeking or
                                   the matter    expansion   the matter                              accepting
                                   falls, but       nearly   falls, but                             employment
                                   appears to   meaningless   failed to                                with an
                                         have           by       define                             agency that
                                     accepted   interpretin  ``specific                                    the
                                    the Trump            g        issue                              appointee
                                   administrat  ``specific       area''                             lobbied; and
                                        ion's        issue      (partly                                    the
                                   interpretat      area''   because the                            definition
                                       ion of   effectively  employment                             of specific
                                   ``specific         as a   ban largely                            issue area
                                        issue   ``particula   prevented                              should be
                                      area,''   r matter of   the issue                             established
                                     which is      general         from                               as being
                                   effectively  applicabili    arising)                             significantl
                                            a        ty.''                                           y broader
                                   ``particula                                                          than a
                                   r matter of                                                      ``particular
                                      general                                                        matter of
                                   applicabili                                                         general
                                        ty.''                                                       applicabilit
                                                                                                          y.''
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Golden Parachute Ban                Prohibits         None         None         None         None      Either:
                                     ``golden
                                    parachute                                                            (a) a
                                   payments''                                                       complete ban
                                   in cash or                                                       on anything
                                   in kind (if                                                        of value
                                   offered as                                                       given by a
                                     a direct                                                           former
                                   substitute                                                        employer,
                                   for a cash                                                       unless the
                                    payment),                                                       appointees
                                      whether                                                              can
                                        given                                                       demonstrate
                                    before or                                                       they would
                                        after                                                             have
                                     entering                                                       received it
                                   government,                                                      if they had
                                   unless the                                                         not gone
                                   appointees                                                             into
                                     can show                                                       government
                                   they would
                                         have                                                               or
                                   received it
                                   if they had                                                      (b) a 4-year
                                   not entered                                                      recusal from
                                   the United                                                              any
                                       States                                                       ``particular
                                   Government                                                         matter''
                                                                                                    (including
                                   But it does                                                      particular
                                          not                                                       matters of
                                     prohibit                                                          general
                                          the                                                       applicabilit
                                   accelerated                                                      y) affecting
                                   vesting of                                                              the
                                     unvested                                                        financial
                                        stock                                                       interests of
                                   options or                                                       the former
                                     unvested                                                         employer
                                   restricted                                                       (which would
                                    stock (or                                                             mean
                                      similar                                                       essentially
                                     unvested                                                       treating the
                                      assets)                                                       appointees
                                     prior to                                                       as if they
                                     entering                                                       continued to
                                   government                                                       hold stock
                                                                                                      in their
                                      It also                                                           former
                                     does not                                                        employer,
                                     apply if                                                       which would
                                   the former                                                       disqualify
                                     employer                                                       them under
                                   offers the                                                       the conflict
                                      item to                                                       of interest
                                   individuals                                                        law from
                                     entering                                                       participatin
                                   government,                                                        g in any
                                   as long as                                                       work focused
                                     the item                                                           on the
                                   would also                                                       industry in
                                           be                                                        which the
                                    available                                                           former
                                   to someone                                                         employer
                                   going into                                                        operates)
                                        state
                                   government
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hiring Based onPQualifications,      Included     Included     Included         None         None      Include
 Competence, andPExperience                                                                             hiring
                                                                                                    requirements
 
                                                                                                    Also require
                                                                                                    training on
                                                                                                         merit
                                                                                                       systems
                                                                                                    principles
                                                                                                    and whistle
                                                                                                        blower
                                                                                                    protection
 
                                                                                                    In addition,
                                                                                                      prohibit
                                                                                                    participatio
                                                                                                          n in
                                                                                                     personnel
                                                                                                       actions
                                                                                                       against
                                                                                                        career
                                                                                                       federal
                                                                                                     employees
                                                                                                    outside the
                                                                                                    appointee's
                                                                                                     immediate
                                                                                                      chain of
                                                                                                      command,
                                                                                                        absent
                                                                                                       written
                                                                                                    documentatio
                                                                                                      n of the
                                                                                                    reason for
                                                                                                           the
                                                                                                    appointee's
                                                                                                    involvement,
                                                                                                    which must
                                                                                                    be provided
                                                                                                        to the
                                                                                                      employee
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Public Disclosure                  All ethics        None.          OGE         None   Pledges and     For all
                                   pledges and  Pledges and  required to                  waivers   appointees,
                                       waiver      waivers       file a                filed with         make
                                   certificati  filed with       public                appointee's  publicly and
                                          ons   appointee's   report on                    agency     promptly
                                   required or      agency          the                             available in
                                   authorized                administrat                                     a
                                       by the                ion of the                             centralized
                                    executive                   pledge.                             database on
                                   order shall               Pledges and                             OGE's web
                                     be filed                   waivers                               site all
                                     with the                filed with                                 ethics
                                   head of the               appointee's                              pledges,
                                   appointee's                   agency                                 ethics
                                      agency.                                                       agreements,
                                      Waivers                                                          waivers
                                      must be                                                       (including
                                   made public                                                      conflict-of-
                                    within 10                                                         interest
                                         days                                                       waivers and
                                                                                                    standards of
                                         This                                                          conduct
                                   transparenc                                                        waivers,
                                            y                                                       extensions,
                                   requirement                                                      approvals,
                                     does not                                                       authorizatio
                                     apply to                                                              ns,
                                   conflict-of-                                                     certificatio
                                     interest                                                       ns, and all
                                   waivers or                                                            other
                                           to                                                          legally
                                    standards                                                        operative
                                   of conduct                                                           ethics
                                      waivers                                                       records to
                                                                                                        ensure
                                                                                                        strict
                                                                                                    compliance
                                                                                                    with ethics
                                                                                                    commitments.
                                                                                                    An exception
                                                                                                    would exempt
                                                                                                       records
                                                                                                    containing
                                                                                                    classified
                                                                                                    information,
                                                                                                    information
                                                                                                    pertaining
                                                                                                    to ongoing
                                                                                                           law
                                                                                                    enforcement
                                                                                                    activities,
                                                                                                           and
                                                                                                    individual
                                                                                                      guidance
                                                                                                    that is not
                                                                                                    required by
                                                                                                     law to be
                                                                                                        issued
 
                                                                                                    In addition,
                                                                                                    OPM should
                                                                                                          make
                                                                                                      publicly
                                                                                                    available a
                                                                                                     real-time
                                                                                                    listing of
                                                                                                           all
                                                                                                     political
                                                                                                    appointees
                                                                                                     (by name,
                                                                                                        title,
                                                                                                       agency,
                                                                                                        agency
                                                                                                    component,
                                                                                                       date of
                                                                                                    appointment,
                                                                                                    and date of
                                                                                                    termination)
                                                                                                        on its
                                                                                                    official web
                                                                                                          site
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Report to the President              Requires         None     Required         None         None   Require OGE
                                    reporting                    OGE to                             to report to
                                    on ethics                 report to                                    the
                                    executive                       the                             President on
                                        order                 President                                    the
                                   administrat                on ethics                             administrati
                                      ion and                 executive                              on of any
                                    necessary                     order                                 ethics
                                   recommendat               administrat                             executive
                                      ions on                ion, which                             order and a
                                   procurement                      was                             variety of
                                     lobbying                  released                               laws and
                                          and                publicly on                            regulations
                                   presidentia                OGE's web                             pertaining
                                   l pardons.                      site                              to ethics
                                      It also                                                       and require
                                   requires a                                                       OGE to make
                                    report on                                                       that report
                                          the                                                           public
                                     material
                                   assistance
                                          ban
                                    extending
                                           to
                                    employees
                                   ``involved
                                       in the
                                   procurement
                                    process''
                                      for any
                                     contract
                                   under their
                                   responsibil
                                   ity in the
                                       last 2
                                     years of
                                        their
                                   government
                                      service
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lobbying Defined                   The act of             LDA``to act .         None        Meant   Expand the
                                            a   definition     . . as a                 knowingly   definition
                                   registered       except   registered                communicati  to go beyond
                                     lobbyist   ``lobbying   lobbyist''                     ng or   the current
                                                activities'   under the                 appearing   limitations
                                                ' did ``not            LDA             before any           on
                                                   include                             officer or   registered
                                                communicati                            employee of  lobbyists to
                                                     ng or                                    any   cover anyone
                                                 appearing                              executive       with a
                                                with regard                             agency on    financial
                                                     to: a                              behalf of   conflict of
                                                  judicial                                another    interest,
                                                proceeding;                            (except the     closing
                                                a criminal                                 United    loopholes
                                                  or civil                                States)   and adopting
                                                       law                             with intent    a single
                                                enforcement                                    to     standard
                                                  inquiry,                              influence    that will
                                                investigati                                           apply to
                                                    on, or                             Exceptions    lobbyists
                                                proceeding;                             included:   for moneyed
                                                    or any                                    1. Lobinterests,
                                                    agency                              for state    those who
                                                process for                              or local     secretly
                                                rulemaking,                            government   advise them
                                                adjudicatio                            2. Certain      and the
                                                     n, or                              judicial,   people they
                                                licensing,                              criminal,   work for--
                                                as defined                              civil, or    all those
                                                    in and                             administrat   who might
                                                governed by                                   ive       affect
                                                       the                             proceedings      public
                                                Administrat                            3. Work for  policy for
                                                       ive                             a college,   private gain
                                                 Procedure                              hospital,
                                                   Act, as                               research   Include an
                                                amended, 5                             institution   exception
                                                U.S.C. 551                             or not-for-  for public
                                                 et seq.''                                 profit     interest
                                                                                       organizatio   lobbyists
                                                                                                n
                                                                                              4. Lobbying
                                                                                              for
                                                                                       internation
                                                                                               al
                                                                                       organizatio
                                                                                       ns, if the
                                                                                        Secretary
                                                                                         of State
                                                                                         approves
                                                                                       5. Furnishi
                                                                                               ng
                                                                                       scientific
                                                                                               or
                                                                                       technologic
                                                                                               al
                                                                                       information
                                                                                       6. Testimon
                                                                                          y under
                                                                                             oath
                                                                                       pursuant to
                                                                                        18 U.S.C.
                                                                                             Sec.
                                                                                       207(j)(6).
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Executive AgencyPDefined           As defined   As defined   As defined         None   As defined   As defined
                                   by 5 U.S.C.  by 5 U.S.C.  by 5 U.S.C.               by 5 U.S.C.  by 5 U.S.C.
                                   Sec.   105,  Sec.   105,  Sec.   105,               Sec.   105,  Sec.   105,
                                          and          and          and                       and   and includes
                                    including     included    including                  included     the EOP,
                                     the EOP,     the EOP,     the EOP,                  the EOP,   USPS, USPRC,
                                        USPS,        USPS,        USPS,                     USPS,   but not GAO.
                                   USPRC, but   USPRC, but   USPRC, but                USPRC, but   Covers the
                                     not GAO.     not GAO.     not GAO.                  not GAO.       entire
                                   Covered the    Excluded   Covered the                 Excluded       agency
                                       entire     separate       entire                  separate
                                       agency       agency       agency                    agency
                                                components                             components
                                                        as                                     as
                                                designated                             designated
                                                    by OGE                                 by OGE
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Administration                         Agency       Agency       Agency         None       Agency       Agency
                                    heads, in    heads are    heads, in                 heads are    heads, in
                                   consultatio  required to  consultatio               required to  consultation
                                   n with OGE,   establish   n with OGE,                establish    with OGE,
                                          are     rules to          are                  rules to   are required
                                   required to      ensure   required to                   ensure   to establish
                                    establish   pledges are   establish                pledges are  and publish
                                     rules to   signed and     rules to                 signed by     rules to
                                       ensure       ensure       ensure                appointees       ensure
                                   pledges are  compliance   pledges are                and trade   pledges are
                                      signed,     with the      signed,                negotiators     signed,
                                       ensure        order       ensure                and ensure       ensure
                                   compliance   within the   compliance                compliance   compliance
                                         with       agency         with                  with the   with waivers
                                   waivers in                waivers in                     order   in written
                                      written                   written                within the       ethics
                                       ethics                    ethics                    agency   agreements,
                                   agreements,               agreements,                            and ensure
                                   and ensure                and ensure                             that spousal
                                         that                      that                             employment
                                      spousal                   spousal                             issues and
                                   employment                employment                                  other
                                   issues and                issues and                              conflicts
                                        other                     other                                    are
                                    conflicts                 conflicts                             addressed in
                                          are                       are                                written
                                    addressed                 addressed                                 ethics
                                   in written                in written                             agreements.
                                       ethics                    ethics                             Agencies are
                                   agreements.               agreements.                                  also
                                     OGE will                  OGE will                             required to
                                       assist                    assist                             provide OGE
                                   agencies in               agencies in                            with copies
                                     adopting                  adopting                             of ethics-
                                        rules                     rules                                related
                                   related to                related to                              documents
                                   the EO and                the EO and                             for public
                                        other                     other                             posting in a
                                       ethics                    ethics                             centralized
                                   requirement               requirement                                public
                                       s, and                    s, and                               database
                                    report to                 report to
                                          the                       the
                                    President                 President
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Waiver Authority                   Granted to   Granted to   Granted to         None   Granted to          Bar
                                      the OMB          the      the OMB                       the   retroactive
                                    Director,    President   Director or                President     waivers,
                                           if     or their        their                and had to      require
                                    certified     designee    designee,                        be      written
                                   in writing     and took           if                 certified   justificatio
                                     that the   effect when   certified                    by the   ns for why
                                   restriction           a   in writing                 President   the waiver
                                           is   certificati    that the                in writing    is in the
                                   inconsisten       on is   restriction                 that the     national
                                   t with the    signed by           is                waiver was    interest,
                                   purpose of          the   inconsisten                   in the    and place
                                          the   President.   t with the                    public      them on
                                   restriction  A copy was   purpose of                 interest.    OGE's web
                                   or it is in  provided to         the                The waiver   site within
                                   the public   the agency.  restriction                 would be      10 days
                                     interest       But no   or it is in                published
                                    (national        legal   the public                    in the
                                   security or    standard     interest                   Federal
                                     economic          was    (national                  Register
                                      exigent   established  security or                and given
                                   circumstanc  for issuing    economic                    to the
                                    es). Goes   the waiver,     exigent                 appointee
                                   beyond the   which meant  circumstanc               and agency
                                        Obama   it could be     es). No
                                    pledge in   issued for   requirement
                                   identifying  any reason   to release
                                   circumstanc       or no      waivers
                                   es in which   reason at    publicly.
                                     a waiver      all. No          (In
                                       may be   requirement   practice,
                                     granted.   to release    the Obama
                                         Also   the waiver   administrat
                                     requires    publicly.          ion
                                     that the          (In     released
                                   waiver must   practice,       them.)
                                      be made    the Trump
                                       public   administrat
                                    within 10          ion
                                         days     released
                                                 unsigned,
                                                  undated,
                                                retroactive
                                                 waivers.)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Receiving postgovernment                 None         None         None         None         None            A
 compensation from a contractor                                                                     restriction
 who receive Federal contracts in                                                                   on the post-
 excess of $10 million                                                                              government
                                                                                                    employment
41 U.S.C. Sec.   2104                                                                               receipt of
 (Procurement Integrity Act)                                                                        compensation
                                                                                                        from a
                                                                                                    contractor
                                                                                                     currently
                                                                                                    applies only
                                                                                                        if the
                                                                                                        former
                                                                                                      official
                                                                                                     served in
                                                                                                        one of
                                                                                                       several
                                                                                                     specified
                                                                                                    procurement-
                                                                                                       related
                                                                                                    capacities
                                                                                                    with respect
                                                                                                          to a
                                                                                                    particular
                                                                                                     contract.
                                                                                                          This
                                                                                                    restriction
                                                                                                     should be
                                                                                                    expanded to
                                                                                                    apply to all
                                                                                                        former
                                                                                                    employees in
                                                                                                    the chain of
                                                                                                    command of
                                                                                                    any covered
                                                                                                     official,
                                                                                                      not just
                                                                                                     those who
                                                                                                          were
                                                                                                      directly
                                                                                                    involved in
                                                                                                    procurements
                                                                                                         . The
                                                                                                    prohibition
                                                                                                         as to
                                                                                                     employers
                                                                                                    should apply
                                                                                                        to all
                                                                                                    divisions,
                                                                                                    affiliates,
                                                                                                           and
                                                                                                    subcontracto
                                                                                                       rs of a
                                                                                                    contractor,
                                                                                                    and language
                                                                                                    in the law
                                                                                                     making it
                                                                                                    applicable
                                                                                                    to work as a
                                                                                                    ``consultant
                                                                                                    '' should be
                                                                                                    amended to
                                                                                                    explicitly
                                                                                                      refer to
                                                                                                    attorneys,
                                                                                                    lobbyists,
                                                                                                     and other
                                                                                                    representati
                                                                                                        ves or
                                                                                                    advisors to
                                                                                                    contractors
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Financial Holdings Restriction           None         None         None         None         None      For all
                                                                                                    senior and
                                                                                                    very senior
                                                                                                    employees,
                                                                                                      restrict
                                                                                                     financial
                                                                                                      holdings
                                                                                                    (including
                                                                                                         their
                                                                                                    spouses and
                                                                                                         minor
                                                                                                    children's
                                                                                                    holdings) to
                                                                                                    Treasuries,
                                                                                                    diversified
                                                                                                    mutual funds
                                                                                                    and similar
                                                                                                          non-
                                                                                                    conflicting
                                                                                                    assets, with
                                                                                                    exceptions
                                                                                                           for
                                                                                                     financial
                                                                                                    interests in
                                                                                                    a spouse's
                                                                                                     employer,
                                                                                                      personal
                                                                                                    residences
                                                                                                     and other
                                                                                                          non-
                                                                                                    commercial
                                                                                                    individual
                                                                                                    residences
                                                                                                      (whether
                                                                                                      occupied
                                                                                                    personally
                                                                                                     or rented
                                                                                                      out), as
                                                                                                       well as
                                                                                                       limited
                                                                                                    exceptions
                                                                                                      for pre-
                                                                                                      existing
                                                                                                        family
                                                                                                        trusts
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Outside Employment and Work              None         None         None         None         None      For all
 Commitment Ban                                                                                     senior and
                                                                                                    very senior
                                                                                                    employees,
                                                                                                      bar them
                                                                                                          from
                                                                                                    engaging in
                                                                                                    compensated
                                                                                                       outside
                                                                                                    employment
                                                                                                       for the
                                                                                                    duration of
                                                                                                         their
                                                                                                    appointment,
                                                                                                    with limited
                                                                                                    exceptions
                                                                                                    for family
                                                                                                        trusts
                                                                                                      (e.g., a
                                                                                                     trust for
                                                                                                           the
                                                                                                    appointee's
                                                                                                     immediate
                                                                                                       family,
                                                                                                    trusts for
                                                                                                        family
                                                                                                    members who
                                                                                                    cannot care
                                                                                                           for
                                                                                                    themselves,
                                                                                                         etc.)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Special Government Employee Rules        None         None         None         None         None      Develop
 and Procedures                                                                                      rules and
                                                                                                    procedures
                                                                                                    to require
                                                                                                        formal
                                                                                                       written
                                                                                                    designation
                                                                                                    of special
                                                                                                    government
                                                                                                      employee
                                                                                                     status at
                                                                                                    the time of
                                                                                                    appointment,
                                                                                                    which must
                                                                                                      be filed
                                                                                                    with OPM and
                                                                                                        in the
                                                                                                    absence of
                                                                                                      which an
                                                                                                      employee
                                                                                                    will not be
                                                                                                      deemed a
                                                                                                       special
                                                                                                    government
                                                                                                      employee
 
                                                                                                    Also provide
                                                                                                      that any
                                                                                                       special
                                                                                                    government
                                                                                                    employee who
                                                                                                    serves more
                                                                                                      than 130
                                                                                                     days in a
                                                                                                       365-day
                                                                                                    period will
                                                                                                    be converted
                                                                                                    automaticall
                                                                                                        y to a
                                                                                                       regular
                                                                                                      employee
                                                                                                     status or
                                                                                                    terminated
 
                                                                                                    Require OPM
                                                                                                    to create a
                                                                                                        public
                                                                                                    database of
                                                                                                    all special
                                                                                                    government
                                                                                                     employees
                                                                                                    (identified
                                                                                                      by name,
                                                                                                        title,
                                                                                                        agency
                                                                                                    component,
                                                                                                    appointment
                                                                                                     date, and
                                                                                                    termination
                                                                                                    date). The
                                                                                                      database
                                                                                                         would
                                                                                                    exclude FACA
                                                                                                     committee
                                                                                                    members and
                                                                                                       certain
                                                                                                         other
                                                                                                    classes of
                                                                                                    SGEs who are
                                                                                                    determined
                                                                                                     by OGE to
                                                                                                       have no
                                                                                                    significant
                                                                                                        policy
                                                                                                     making or
                                                                                                    implementing
                                                                                                     authority
                                                                                                        (e.g.,
                                                                                                      seasonal
                                                                                                    workers in a
                                                                                                    gift shop,
                                                                                                        summer
                                                                                                       inters,
                                                                                                    lifeguards,
                                                                                                         etc.)
 
                                                                                                     Close the
                                                                                                    loophole in
                                                                                                      5 U.S.C.
                                                                                                          Sec.
                                                                                                    13103(f)(8)
                                                                                                    that exempts
                                                                                                    SGE's in the
                                                                                                      EOP from
                                                                                                        public
                                                                                                     financial
                                                                                                    disclosure
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Discretionary Trusts                     None         None         None         None         None   Provide that
                                                                                                    all senior
                                                                                                      and very
                                                                                                        senior
                                                                                                     employees
                                                                                                          must
                                                                                                    disclose the
                                                                                                    holdings of
                                                                                                    discretionar
                                                                                                    y trusts to
                                                                                                      the same
                                                                                                    extent that
                                                                                                    they would
                                                                                                    disclose the
                                                                                                    holdings of
                                                                                                    trusts for
                                                                                                    which they
                                                                                                    are vested
                                                                                                    beneficiarie
                                                                                                             s
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Agency Heads                             None         None         None         None         None   Provide that
                                                                                                      OGE must
                                                                                                    review and
                                                                                                    certify the
                                                                                                     financial
                                                                                                    disclosure
                                                                                                    reports and
                                                                                                        ethics
                                                                                                    agreements
                                                                                                        of any
                                                                                                    agency heads
                                                                                                         whose
                                                                                                    positions do
                                                                                                    not require
                                                                                                        Senate
                                                                                                    confirmation
                                                                                                    (e.g., CDC
                                                                                                     Director,
                                                                                                    Postmaster
                                                                                                      General,
                                                                                                    etc.) before
                                                                                                    they begin
                                                                                                    serving in
                                                                                                    the position
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Senator Warren. You know, one of the common arguments that 
some of my colleagues make about cooling off periods is that if 
we lengthen them, it will make it tougher to recruit talented 
people to work at DOD.
    Now, I always want to pause when I hear that argument and 
say, think about that for a minute. The claim is if somebody 
knew that Federal law would prevent them from becoming a 
lobbyist after they left their Federal job, that they would 
choose not to come to work at the DOD in the first place.
    Mr. Wilkerson, based on your experience, if we told people 
who were in line for top Pentagon jobs that they would need to 
wait 4 years instead of 3 years or 2 years before they could 
become lobbyists after they left that job, do you think this 
would make it harder for DOD to attract the talent that they 
need?
    Mr. Wilkerson. I don't, and I go back to Admiral Spruance, 
Admiral Nimitz, Admiral Halsey, General Eisenhower, and a host 
of other characters whom we all know from World War II who 
weren't so motivated. They didn't have that incentive to do 
what it was they did, which was quite phenomenal, if you think 
about it.
    Senator Warren. Is it your experience or your sense that 
extending our cooling off period would strengthen or weaken our 
National Security?
    Mr. Wilkerson. I don't know what the exact time would be 
that would be most effective, but I think it is a measure. It 
is a measure. Frankly, I would rather see the military 
reinstitute what I got at the Naval War College from Admiral 
Stockdale and a guy by the name of Joe Brennan, which was 
ethics and military service, and be a subject of a seminar, for 
example, that had standing room only crowds in it, because that 
is not something we teach as a country anymore.
    Senator Warren. Fair point. Fair point. I am going to do 
one last question, because I am way over time. I was filling in 
while everybody was voting here. But my last question is to 
you, Ms. Brian.
    POGO has been around for over 40 years, that you have been 
looking at this issue, you have been investigating these 
problems for nearly that long. Do you think we need more 
studies before we take steps to strengthen Pentagon ethics 
requirements?
    Ms. Brian. My plea is not for us to do any more studying. 
As you mentioned, POGO ourselves have been doing this work 
since the 1980's with analysis, the GAO has at least 40 years 
of reports, more than 40 years of reports studying this, the 
Inspectors General have as well.
    We don't really need to be studying this anymore. We really 
do know the problem here, and we just need to fix the problem. 
If I could add to the point, you raised before about those who 
might not want to come into Government or into the Defense 
Department, if they know they can't become lobbyists 
afterwards, I would argue I don't want them in the Defense 
Department then, and I am glad that they are reluctant to go 
in.
    Senator Warren. Right. Thank you. You know, I just want to 
close this by saying I have a bill that would combat giant 
defense contractors capturing the Pentagon by making some 
ethics reforms.
    We should close influence peddling loopholes so the 
definitions of lobbying capture all of the work that 
corporations do to try to tilt the system in their favor. We 
should extend recusal periods for people who come to DOD from 
giant Pentagon contractors, and we should require more public 
reporting on these companies about their hiring a former 
Department of Defense official.
    A good place to start this is by extending those cooling 
off periods for at least 4 years, and with that, I apologize to 
my colleagues for going so long and turn this over to Mr. 
Scott.
    Senator Scott. Thanks, Senator Warren. Thank you all for 
being here. I am sorry I had to leave when you were in your 
presentation, but do you have specific recommendations that you 
would make?
    So here is an example. Do you think we ought to prevent a 
former DOD personnel that--working for a defense contractor, if 
they had nothing--if they are going to do work in an area or 
even lobby an area that had nothing to do with their job in the 
military ahead of time?
    Ms. Brian. No, no I don't.
    Senator Scott. Okay.
    Ms. Brian. Actually, I am glad you came back, Senator, 
because I did want to respond to something you had in your 
opening statement about the fact the DOD does have more--which 
is true, there are more ethical or conflict of interest 
restrictions for a DOD. But I think that is a good thing. DOD 
has such an important mission. Yes, so I think that is okay.
    Senator Scott. Yes, it is a pretty big budget. There was a 
GAO study in, I guess, 2021 that said there is something like 
1.1 million people get out of the service in between 2014 and 
2019, but only about 1,700 were former DOD senior acquisition 
officials ended up working for defense contractors. Does that 
sound right?
    Ms. Brian. It sounds correct. But I don't think it is 
right. I mean, I think it is terrible.
    [Laughter.]
    Senator Scott. That is not exactly why I asked the 
question----
    [Laughter.]
    Senator Scott. Do you think that is about the right number? 
What we should be looking at is what happens, what the impact 
of those 1,700, right?
    Ms. Brian. Well, that GAO report only looked at the top 14 
contractors and there are about 100,000 DOD contractors. I 
really would have preferred if DOD----
    Senator Scott. Do you think the number is quite a bit 
bigger?
    Ms. Brian. But I think that it is important to know those 
were the 14 biggest ones, and I think that as the Chairwoman 
reflected, that is a lot of people for 14 companies.
    Senator Scott. Let's say you have somebody that has a 
successful military career or worked at DOD and things like 
that, whatever they did. What do you think they should do when 
they finish? Because they clearly have gained a lot of 
knowledge. Do you think they should be completely eliminated 
from being able to work in defense or for a defense contractor? 
What should they do with their time?
    Ms. Brian. I think it really depends on the circumstance of 
what their position was when they were at DOD. But for the vast 
majority of cases, they have a world of opportunities without 
having to trade on their influence peddling.
    I think it is important to remember that in the private 
sector, almost every company now has non-compete clauses where 
you can't go to the competitor, which those clauses that are 
being upheld in the courts are quite narrow in their scope.
    I think that is the same thing in this case where if a 
person had been involved, for example, in deciding that the F-
22 program should go forward, they should not be allowed to go 
to Lockheed. That doesn't mean there aren't a world of other 
companies they could go to work for.
    Senator Scott. Yes. Colonel, Israel is a big and very 
important to a lot of citizens of Florida, as you would expect. 
You have stated that Israel will be gone in 20 years. You said 
that, I think last year, a year before, so why would you 
believe that, and why do you think that?
    Mr. Wilkerson. Because Bibi Netanyahu is the leader. If he 
weren't the leader, I wouldn't say that.
    Senator Scott. It is only because--well, he probably wasn't 
the leader for a while there.
    Mr. Wilkerson. Oh, he has been the leader for a long time. 
He worked with Marc Rich to get discounted oil and break our 
sanctions in Iraq for Israel as the finance officer, if you 
will.
    Senator Scott. You have said the recognition of Israel was 
a mistake. Do you think when you look at the Abraham Accords 
and the success, we have had with those, do you think--and 
there is a lot of countries now benefiting from Israel. Do you 
think that our recognition of Israel is, or continues to be, a 
mistake?
    Mr. Wilkerson. What worries me the most right now, Senator, 
is a change in the unified command plan, because I know how the 
military fought that change for over half a century. I know how 
Colin Powell would have fallen on his sword over that change.
    That puts Israel for the first time in its history and 
Central Command's history in the area of responsibility (AOR), 
the area of responsibility with all the Arab countries. Had we 
done that when we put together the 600,000 man coalition that 
included the French, the Syrians, and others in the first Gulf 
War, it would have collapsed right away.
    The Abraham Accords is not sufficient enough, nor the 
rapprochement between Tehran and Riyadh to convince me that 
that change should have been made unless we are planning on war 
with either Israel leading and us following, or us leading and 
Israel holding our coat, or together.
    That is the only reason, as a military professional of 31 
years and a student of the Unified Command Plan (UCP) in 
particular, a document signed by the President would be changed 
to that effect.
    Senator Scott. Thank you, Chair.
    Senator Warren. Thank you. Senator Kaine.
    Senator Kaine. Thanks for doing this hearing. I really 
appreciate it. It is an interesting day to be having discussion 
about Israel because it is the 75th independence anniversary 
today.
    I think Israel and the United States have been great 
allies. You talked about President Truman. That was one of his 
proudest accomplishments was the recognition of Israel, and 
that----
    Mr. Wilkerson. Over George Marshall's objections----
    Senator Kaine. He did. He said, the person he most admired 
in the world, George Marshall, told him not to do it, but he 
had the strength as a guy with a high school degree from----
    Mr. Wilkerson. I am a fan of Israel, Senator----
    Senator Kaine.--to stare down--well, just let me finish. He 
had the strength to stare down a guy who had won the Nobel 
Peace Prize and say, yes, but I think this is the right thing 
to do. That doesn't mean you can't criticize Israel. It doesn't 
mean we shouldn't also recognize the huge protests that are 
going on in Israel----
    Mr. Wilkerson. Yes.
    Senator Kaine.--right now are the sign of a functioning 
democracy. Peaceful----
    Mr. Wilkerson. Gives me hope.
    Senator Kaine. I wish we could get as many Americans to 
peacefully protest about some things that I wish would change. 
There is some very hopeful signs, challenging signs. No country 
is perfect. I have a lot of questions I want to ask.
    I am troubled by The Washington Post reporting that says 95 
percent of the time when somebody who is a retired military 
officer asks for a waiver to work for a foreign government, the 
answer is yes.
    That is just--without even knowing the details of the 
individual cases, that percentage strikes me as very troubling. 
It reminds me of the challenge we got into with military 
housing a few years ago.
    In the military housing contracts, the base commanders had 
the authority to decide at the end of the year whether the 
housing, the private housing companies got a bonus or not, and 
they were giving the bonus like 98 percent of the time.
    All you needed to know is to look at that and then know 
there is going to be a huge problem. Of course, there was. That 
problem was actually facilitated by actions that this Committee 
sadly took a few years before when we shrunk the size of 
headquarters staff in an arbitrary across-the-board way.
    What that meant was a lot of people, like folks running 
housing programs, got shrunk. You have to be careful when you 
do something like that. But I am really troubled by this 95 
percent number, and it just seems to me like that is a symptom 
of something that is wrong. What is the fix for that?
    Ms. Brian. Well, Senator, this is only happening because 
the Congress has actually given the authority to the State 
Department to authorize these waivers. So, this is a perfect 
place for congressional oversight to look into.
    What are the standards that the State Department is 
applying? In our written comments, we have a lot of additional 
recommendations that include more transparency.
    We had to litigate, and so did The Washington Post, in 
order to even get the very, very redacted waivers that we were 
able to accomplish. Not only is this happening with alarming 
frequency, it is happening under a veil of secrecy as well.
    Senator Kaine. I know Ms. Brian you said we don't need more 
studies. I hate just study after study after study. I like 
action. But there are nuances here and I wonder what you would 
think.
    In terms of more restrictions for people leaving the 
Pentagon and going to work for businesses in the defense space, 
does it matter what level they are?
    Would you set it and have a higher level of restriction for 
higher level officials, lower level restriction for people 
junior in their career?
    Ms. Brian. Oh, absolutely. One of the things that is ironic 
about the current restrictions is many of them apply to more 
junior people than they do to the more senior people.
    I think if the Senate were to focus really just on those 
more senior people, I think you would have really a lot of 
important loopholes being closed.
    Senator Kaine. Then to a point that was raised by the 
chairwoman in her opening. You know, if it is about sharing 
expertise, but the overwhelming majority of people who go are 
going into lobbying or adjacent influencing rather than 
providing expertise in the design of a program, you could also 
have limitations that might not stop you from joining but might 
stop you from joining in a kind of a lobbying or influencing 
capacity.
    Ms. Brian. Absolutely.
    Senator Kaine. I was supervising the maintainers of a 
particular air platform, okay, doing things that would enable 
that platform to require less maintenance. Okay, that would be 
a good thing. That would be a sharing in expertise. But going 
into influence and Government relations, you might draw some 
distinctions there.
    Ms. Brian. Absolutely. You will see in our breakdown of the 
kinds of loopholes to be closed. It really is about closing the 
access of influence peddling, is really the central problem.
    Senator Kaine. Right, and to your point, Madam Chair, I 
think the way we define lobbying--we define it pretty narrowly 
now and pretty--and smart lawyers and others can figure out how 
to lobby without it being lobbying, and that probably requires 
us to be a little more diligent as well. I yield back.
    Senator Warren. Senator Budd.
    Senator Budd. Thank you, Madam Chair. Again, thank the 
witnesses for being here today. I think we all can agree that 
maintaining the trust of the American people is a fundamental 
aspect of public service, and the trust is earned, not given.
    But I am deeply concerned with the message that the 
American people are being sent today about the men and the 
women in uniform, as well as senior leadership across the 
Department of Defense.
    I think this message is a wrong one, in my opinion. I am 
deeply concerned about the message that is being sent to those 
considering raising their right hand in defense of this Nation. 
There is a certain undertone to some of the testimony we have 
already heard. Frankly, the fact that we are having this 
hearing, I think that makes a statement.
    We are told to beware the Beltway bandits, the likes of 
specifically to name a few, Lockheed, Grumman, Raytheon, and 
Boeing. The American companies that, yes, they make a profit, 
but they also create jobs, they innovate, they help deter our 
adversaries, and they maintain American peace and prosperity. 
We are told of a, ``deterioration of ethics in the military 
officer corps,'' the lure of filthy lucre, the lifestyle 
preferences, the elixir of continued power and influence.
    That, again, ``the Army does not usually produce many 
giants of integrity.'' I couldn't disagree more. The military 
has produced giants like Washington, Eisenhower, Nimitz, and 
Stockdale, Colonel, some that you mentioned earlier.
    For the last 20 years, All-Volunteer Force has transformed 
into a generation of combat leaders, some of whom are now 
general and flag officers or senior civilian leaders in the 
Pentagon.
    The American people have invested heavily in these leaders 
with years of training and professional military education. 
Particularly at a time we are already facing a recruiting 
shortage, we should be wary of telling prospective recruits 
that their would-be leaders are corrupt or that they should 
give the Nation decades of service--or should they give the 
Nation decades of service, that their future career options 
would or should be limited.
    Now, I am not arguing that there are no bad apples, but it 
seems to me that any insinuation that senior military leaders 
are inherently corrupt or easily influenced by defense 
contractors or foreign powers, I think that is just wrong.
    Colonel Wilkerson, how is accepting a job that uses your 
well-earned knowledge, experience, and judgment pernicious and 
I am quoting here, ``pernicious, corrupting, and damaging to 
the interests of the country?'' Briefly, please.
    Mr. Wilkerson. A specific example, Senator, would be those 
people who work against, for example, the idea that the A-10 
Warthog is a better close air support aircraft for my fellow 
infantrymen than the F-35, which any infantryman knows will 
never come down to provide close air support for them. Should 
it do it from altitude, it will be ineffective, and yet we are 
getting rid of the very best platform for that that we have 
ever created, the A-10, principally because we have people who 
are pushing the F-35 so hard.
    I really have a hard time blaming them because it is 
costing astronomically and they have got to have something to 
prove that that aircraft is worth it. But I don't want the GIs 
on the battlefield and the marines on the battlefield to have 
to suffer for that.
    Senator Budd. Thank you, Colonel. Again, you want to 
evaluate those on a case-by-case basis.
    Mr. Wilkerson. Yes.
    Senator Budd. I would agree with that. Madam Chair, I have 
a series of articles regarding past comments made by Colonel 
Wilkerson. I would like to submit it for the record.
    Senator Warren. Without objection.
    [The information referred to follows:]
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Senator Budd. Thank you. Colonel Wilkerson, on the issue of 
foreign influence, you have been quoted as saying, ``the Jewish 
lobby, and American Israel Public Affairs Committees (AIPAC) in 
particular, played an outsized influence in the run up to the 
Iraq war.''
    You have called Israel, one of our closest allies, an 
apartheid State. It just concerns me that with comments like 
those, are we supposed to take your testimony here today 
seriously, particularly when you talk about foreign influence? 
But again, I appreciate you being here. And Madam Chair, I 
yield back.
    Senator Warren. Thank you. I want to do a second round of 
questions for anybody who wants to do it. As I mentioned in my 
opening statement, and Senator Kaine referred to it, there is a 
recent investigation by The Washington Post and POGO that found 
that hundreds of retired military officers have gone to work 
for foreign governments.
    Senator Grassley and I launched our own bipartisan 
investigation, and it was not intended to be partisan. We wrote 
to the Department of Defense. We asked for detailed information 
about DOD's processes for how they approved of this work and 
how much these retired officers expected to receive in payment 
from foreign governments.
    What we discovered is that the approval rate from DOD is in 
excess of 95 percent, as you underscored, Senator Kaine, and 
that the officers themselves made a lot of money. An Air Force 
general working for Saudi Arabia was getting paid $24,000 a 
month, which just about doubled what he was already receiving 
from his military pension.
    What troubles me in particular about this is how hard it is 
to get the information. Senator Grassley and I were successful 
because we were able to bear down on it with some Senate elbow 
grease on this.
    But the information is not made public. The Washington Post 
and POGO had to dig this out in other ways. So now that we have 
got this information, I just want to do a little bit more on 
the summary. High approval rates by DOD. Mr. Brian, can you 
just say a word about the kinds of countries that are employing 
our former generals, colonels, admirals?
    Ms. Brian. Well, the thing that was most shocking to me was 
when we are talking about countries not only that are serial 
violators of human rights, the United Arab Emirates, for 
example, with 280 of these people on their payroll.
    But the fact that we were able to find four people who were 
approved to work for entities owned by China, which is 
obviously a rival to our country, that to me, was--what 
standard are they using to approve these?
    Senator Warren. Right. A little troubling about the 
particular countries that are being approved here. The number 
of retired officers working for foreign governments was made 
public by your outside investigation.
    Can you just say a word about what it would mean if we 
required from the get-go that any employment by a former high-
level Department of Defense official by a foreign government 
had to be made public and available for anyone in the public to 
see? What would be the consequence of that, in your view?
    Ms. Brian. I think it would be extremely valuable, in part 
because remember, these people are not just on the payroll, but 
as you noted, some of them are very high level, including 
former National Security Advisor or the head of the NSA 
[National Security Agency].
    Then they are also commenting in the media, but it is not 
also identified in their comments that they are on the payroll 
of a foreign country. They are just acknowledged as a former 
National Security official, and so, the public needs to know 
and the Congress needs to know who is paying you for these 
comments.
    Senator Warren. Just to make clear, so everybody is kind of 
following what happens here. Does the U.S. Government place 
restrictions on our ability as a Government to help countries, 
for example, that are identified as having terrible human 
rights records or to help the Chinese Government, for example?
    Ms. Brian. I mean, there is certainly all kinds of 
considerations that the State Department and DOD go into before 
they are evaluating whether those agreements are agreed to. But 
in this case, clearly, that is not what is happening.
    Senator Warren. Well, I am particularly concerned that what 
has happened is there has been--this has become a way to bypass 
those restrictions and to be able to communicate with and 
influence government and evade the sanctions or the 
restrictions that are otherwise in place. So, thank you again 
very much.
    Thank you for initiating this study and bringing this to 
light so that Senator Grassley and I could followup and we 
could do more to highlight what is happening here. Senator 
Scott, do you have anything more? Senator Kaine?
    All right. With that, thank you very much, both of you, for 
being here, and I call up the second panel.
    [Pause.]
    Senator Warren. Our second panel will consist of counsels 
from the Department and from the military services. Caroline 
Krass is General Counsel for the Department of Defense. Carrie 
Ricci is General Counsel of the Army. Shaun Coffey, or John P., 
sorry, Coffey is General Counsel of the Department of the Navy, 
and Peter Justice Beshar is General Counsel of the Department 
of the Air Force.
    Thank you all for being here today. I understand you have 
one joint statement that will be delivered by Ms. Krass.

STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE CAROLINE D. KRASS, GENERAL COUNSEL, 
 DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE; THE HONORABLE CARRIE F. RICCI, GENERAL 
COUNSEL, DEPARTMENT OF THE ARMY; THE HONORABLE JOHN P. COFFEY, 
GENERAL COUNSEL, DEPARTMENT OF THE NAVY; THE HONORABLE PETER J. 
      BESHAR, GENERAL COUNSEL, DEPARTMENT OF THE AIR FORCE

    Ms. Krass. Thank you very much. Chairman Warren, Ranking 
Member Scott, and distinguished Members of the Senate Armed 
Services Committee, Personnel Subcommittee, I want to thank you 
for the opportunity to testify today.
    I would also like to thank the General Counsels of the 
military departments who are testifying alongside me. As you 
just introduced them, Carrie Ricci, Army General Counsel, John 
Coffey, Navy General Counsel, and Peter Beshar, Air Force 
General Counsel.
    I value their strong partnership in reaffirming DOD's 
commitment to ensuring that all personnel carry out their 
duties and responsibilities ethically. In these remarks, I 
would like to highlight two principles in particular.
    First, DOD's strong commitment to ethical conduct. And 
second, the comprehensive set of existing ethics laws and 
regulations across the Executive Branch that create a clear, 
consistent, and balanced framework appropriately tailored to 
promote integrity and to prevent conflicts of interest. I have 
submitted a longer written statement for the record. Let me 
begin with DOD's commitment to ethical conduct.
    As the largest Government agency, DOD has approximately 3 
million personnel, filling nearly 675 distinct occupations 
worldwide. Across this vast and varied enterprise, DOD remains 
deeply committed to ensuring that our personnel carry out their 
duties ethically and free from any actual or perceived 
conflicts of interest.
    The DOD ethics program embraces a tone from the top model, 
with participation from the highest levels of DOD leadership, 
including the Secretary of Defense, who consistently 
communicates his expectations to all of us regarding ethical 
conduct.
    As one of my many duties, I serve as the Department's 
primary designated agency ethics official. We have 16 
additional designated agency ethics officials and more than 
3,000 ethics officials at every level, each of whom is required 
to be an attorney.
    Together, we administer strong ethics programs designed to 
facilitate compliance through extensive training and enhanced 
financial disclosure reviews, as well as to identify and 
address potential violations.
    DOD's financial disclosure programs help detect and prevent 
potential conflicts of interest, with a focus on individuals 
whose position or duties creates a potential for conflicts of 
interest. Our ethics attorneys provide extensive guidance, 
including assisting individuals in comprehending the often 
intricate and overlapping patchwork of post-Government 
employment laws that apply to DOD employees in particular.
    In fact, GAO released a 2021 report recognizing the 
effectiveness of DOD's programs in preventing violations of 
those post-Government employment laws. The report also noted 
that both DOD and defense contractors benefit from the 
contractors' employment of former Government officials by 
leveraging the general knowledge and skills that these 
officials developed during their Federal service and improving 
communications between industry and the Government.
    I would now like to touch upon the existing framework of 
comprehensive ethics laws and regulations that we work to 
uphold every day. Executive Branch-wide criminal ethics laws 
and implementing regulations create a clear, consistent, and 
balanced framework that is appropriately tailored to promote 
integrity and to prevent conflicts of interest.
    They are also supported by years of interpretive guidance 
from the Office of Government Ethics, the Department of 
Justice, and the Federal Courts. Generally, these laws and 
regulations prohibit an employee from participating in 
particular matters that would affect the employee's financial 
interests, to include the financial interests of their family 
members or certain other entities with which they have or have 
had an outside relationship.
    Importantly, these laws and regulations require a nexus 
between an employee's duties and the financial interest or 
relationship in order for a conflict of interest to arise.
    In addition, under the Executive Branch-wide ethics 
regulations, incoming Government employees have a 1-year 
cooling off period from interacting with their former employer, 
and a criminal statute restricts former Government employees 
from communicating back to the Government on matters in which 
they were personally and substantially involved.
    This time-tested standard protects against undue influence 
without unreasonably interfering with the ability of veterans 
and other public servants to use their education, skills, and 
expertise to earn a living and support their families following 
service to our country.
    I believe there is always room for improvement, and DOD 
supports well-coordinated and integrated efforts to enhance 
Executive Branch-wide laws. But imposing additional ethics 
restrictions that apply only to DOD can be counterproductive, 
if they diverge from longstanding and well-known Executive 
Branch-wide ethics laws.
    They can create unnecessary complexity and confusion and 
may also put us at a disadvantage from our recruitment and 
retention perspective. Recognizing these concerns in the Fiscal 
Year 2023 NDAA, Congress directed an independent review of the 
impact that DOD specific ethics laws may have on recruiting and 
retention.
    This review is underway and the Department looks forward to 
sharing the results with you when it is complete. Finally, my 
colleagues will be happy to discuss with the Committee the 
processes for evaluating requests from retired servicemembers 
regarding foreign government employment or compensation.
    To help ensure a consistent approach across DOD, the 
Undersecretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness recently 
directed the military services to conduct a 90-day assessment 
of those processes and to provide any recommendations for 
improvement. The Department looks forward to briefing the 
Committee on the results.
    In closing, I would like to thank you for holding this 
important hearing today, and to reiterate DOD's commitment to 
maintain the public's trust as we defend the Nation. My 
colleagues and I look forward to answering your questions.
    [The prepared joint statement of The Honorable Caroline 
Krass follows:]

           Prepared Statement by The Honorable Caroline Krass
    Chair Warren, Ranking Member Scott, distinguished Members of the 
Senate Armed Services Committee Personnel Subcommittee: Thank you for 
the opportunity to testify today.
    I would also like to thank my colleagues the General Counsels of 
the Military Departments who are testifying alongside me--Carrie Ricci, 
Army General Counsel; Sean Coffey, Navy General Counsel; and Peter 
Beshar, Air Force General Counsel.
    The Department of Defense is deeply committed--from the very top of 
the Department down--to ensuring that all personnel carry out their 
duties and responsibilities ethically. Existing Executive Branch-wide 
ethics laws establish clear, consistent, and balanced standards for our 
personnel to follow from the time they are hired and continuing after 
they depart. DOD works extraordinarily hard to promote compliance with 
both the letter and spirit of these laws, and we have earned a strong 
reputation for administering effective training and compliance programs 
across the Department.
    Today, I look forward to showcasing DOD's strong ethics program and 
explaining the comprehensive ethics rules that apply to current and 
former DOD personnel. My colleagues will also be happy to discuss the 
screening processes implemented by the Military Services when approving 
requests from military retirees to engage in foreign government 
employment--approval processes that culminate in final review and 
approval by the Secretary of State.
                  dod's commitment to ethical conduct
    As the largest Government agency, with approximately three million 
military and civilian personnel who fill nearly 675 distinct 
occupations across the globe, DOD does business with close to 30,000 
organizations that range from traditional defense contractors and 
universities to non-profit organizations. \1\ DOD personnel work in 
offices and laboratories, shipyards and airfields, medical facilities, 
and schools. They serve in the Army, Marine Corps, Navy, Air Force, 
Space Force, and Defense Agencies while supporting a common mission: 
``to deter war and ensure our Nation's security.'' \2\
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    \1\ See, e.g., ``DOD Vendors with Contracts Over $25,000,'' January 
2023, available at https://dodsoco.ogc.osd.mil/Portals/102/Documents/
Conflicts/2023 percent2025K percent20covering 
percent20FY2022.pdf'ver=f7CHvUlbGeU percent3d.
    \2\ See U.S. Dep't of Defense, ``About,'' available at https://
www.defense.gov/About/.
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    Across this vast and varied enterprise, DOD remains deeply 
committed to ensuring that all of our personnel carry out their duties 
and responsibilities ethically and free from actual and perceived 
conflicts of interest. It is imperative to uphold the highest ethical 
standards and maintain public trust as we execute our vital mission.
    DOD's highly regarded ethics program helps ensure that we live up 
to these high standards. Alongside my many other duties, I serve as the 
primary Designated Agency Ethics Official (DAEO) for the Department of 
Defense. DOD has 16 additional DAEOs throughout the Department. The 
DAEOs are the most senior attorneys in their respective DOD departments 
and agencies. My Standards of Conduct (SOCO) team has deep expertise 
and provides additional connective tissue for the DAEOs and ethics 
officials throughout DOD. I am very proud of their commitment to 
excellence. Together, we oversee an ethics program comprised of more 
than 3,000 ethics attorneys embedded at every level across DOD, around 
the globe and at sea.
    To assist DOD employees in following existing ethics laws and 
regulations, we implement extensive training programs across the 
Department. We also administer strong compliance programs. When there 
is reason to believe that there has been a failure to comply with 
applicable ethics laws and regulations, DOD policies establish clear 
guidelines for transmitting such cases to the Inspectors General or 
criminal investigative services, who investigate and, where 
appropriate, refer the matter to the Department of Justice for 
prosecution.
    The DOD ethics program embraces a ``tone from the top'' model, with 
participation from the highest levels of DOD leadership. The Secretary 
of Defense consistently communicates his expectations regarding ethical 
conduct and values-based decisionmaking. Shortly after his 
confirmation, the Secretary issued an ethics message to the DOD 
workforce on the importance of practicing and exercising ethical 
decisionmaking in the same manner and with the same alacrity that we 
practice and exercise other professional skills. \3\ The Secretary 
followed this with a video ethics message, a series of training 
sessions for senior leaders which he personally led, and regular 
meetings with ethics officials.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \3\ Secretary of Defense Memorandum, ``Reaffirming Our Values and 
Ethical Conduct,'' March 1, 2021, available at https://
media.defense.gov/2021/Mar/02/2002591989/-1/-1/1/SECRETARY-OF-DEFENSE-
REAFFIRMING-DOD-VALUES-AND-ETHICAL-CONDUCT.PDF.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Our extensive ethics training program helps realize the Secretary's 
vision. Office of Government Ethics (OGE) regulations require ethics 
officials to provide every new Executive Branch employee, including 
military officers, with initial ethics training within 3 months of 
joining the Executive Branch. \4\ DOD has extended this training 
requirement to all enlisted personnel, who must complete initial ethics 
training within 180 days of entering Active Duty. In 2021, DOD ethics 
officials provided initial ethics training to more than 160,000 new DOD 
personnel. \5\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \4\ See 5 C.F.R. Sec.  2638.304; see also DOD 5500.07-R, ``Joint 
Ethics Regulation,'' Sec.  1-209 (2011) [hereinafter JER]. OGE's 
regulation requires Senate confirmed Presidential appointees (``PAS'' 
officials) to receive in-person initial ethics training within 15 days 
of appointment. See 5 C.F.R. Sec.  2638.305. Ethics Agreements for DOD 
PAS officials require this training within seven days.
    \5\ OGE publishes DAEO agency responses to the OGE Annual Agency 
Ethics Program Questionnaire on its website. These Questionnaires are 
submitted to OGE on February 1 of each year and cover data for the 
preceding calendar year. Data for the 2023 Questionnaires (covering 
calendar year (CY) 2022) has not yet been published, as OGE reviews and 
processes the information prior to publication. Some data used in this 
statement therefore derives from Questionnaires submitted by DOD DAEOs 
in February 2022 (covering CY 2021). These numbers do not include 
personnel assigned to certain intelligence agencies, as information 
concerning the number and composition of such personnel is classified.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    OGE regulations also require that personnel who file a financial 
disclosure report receive annual ethics training on conflict of 
interest and other ethics laws. \6\ DOD further requires all Defense 
Acquisition Workforce personnel to receive annual ethics training, 
regardless of whether they are required to file a financial disclosure 
report. \7\ In 2021, DOD ethics officials delivered annual ethics 
training to more than 140,000 financial disclosure filers.
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    \6\ See 5 C.F.R. Sec. Sec.  2638.307, 308.
    \7\ See Under Secretary of Defense (Acquisition, Technology & 
Logistics) Memorandum, ``Mandatory Annual Ethics Training for the 
Defense Acquisition Workforce,'' January 15, 2014.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    DOD's extensive financial disclosure program helps employees, 
supervisors, and ethics officials detect and prevent potential 
conflicts of interest. The program focuses on individuals whose 
position or duties create a potential for conflicts of interest, such 
as senior personnel or those involved in the acquisition process. These 
personnel are required to file a report within 30 days of assuming 
their position and on an annual basis thereafter. In 2021, these DOD 
personnel filed approximately 150,000 financial disclosure reports (OGE 
Forms 278e and 450). All senior personnel are required to report 
certain transactions no later than 45 days after the transaction 
occurs, \8\ and last year they filed more than 3,600 of these periodic 
transaction reports (OGE Form 278T).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \8\ See 5 U.S.C. Sec.  13105(l).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    OGE regulations require ethics officials to review and certify all 
financial disclosure reports within 60 days of receipt. \9\ DOD goes 
further by requiring that a supervisor, who is most familiar with the 
employee's duties, first review each report. \10\ Ethics officials 
followup with employees when potential conflicts of interest are 
identified, taking steps to ensure that any such conflicts are avoided 
or resolved. If a supervisor or other official receives credible 
information indicating that an employee violated the conflict of 
interest rules, the matter is referred to the appropriate authorities.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \9\ See 5 C.F.R. Sec.  2634.605.
    \10\ See JER, supra note 4 Sec.  Sec.  7-206, 7-306.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    All senior DOD personnel who file public financial disclosure 
reports must certify annually that they are both aware of post-
Government employment disqualification requirements and that they have 
not violated them. \11\ And the Defense Federal Acquisition Regulation 
Supplement (DFARS) requires contractors to certify that former 
employees working on a DOD contract are complying with applicable post-
Government employment ethics laws. \12\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \11\ See id. Sec.  8-400.
    \12\ See DFARS Sec.  252.203-7005.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    To assist current and former DOD employees with comprehending the 
often intricate and overlapping patchwork of post-Government employment 
laws, DOD ethics counsel devote considerable resources to providing 
written guides, meeting individually with current and former personnel, 
and issuing formal opinions when current employees arrange for new 
employment. When DOD personnel leave the Department, DOD ethics 
officials help ensure that they are aware of the relevant post-
Government employment ethics laws, including by providing tailored exit 
briefings and written advice. Former DOD personnel continue to reach 
back to DOD ethics officials for advice on the application of post-
Government employment laws after their departure.
    In 2021, GAO released a report on DOD's post-Government employment 
restrictions. \13\ The report recognized the effectiveness of DOD's 
compliance measures for preventing violations of laws and regulations 
relating to post-Government employment. The report did not suggest that 
additional DOD-specific restrictions are either necessary or in the 
Government or public interest. Instead, GAO noted that ``both DOD and 
defense contractors benefit from the contractors' employment of former 
Government officials. For example, contractors benefit from the 
knowledge and skills that former DOD officials developed at DOD. DOD 
benefits from improved communication.'' \14\ Moreover, GAO found that 
fewer than 2 percent of former DOD senior and acquisition officials 
work for the 14 biggest defense contractors. Between 2014 and 2019, 
approximately 1.5 million people left employment with DOD, and only 
about 1,700 (0.1 percent) of those were former senior or acquisition 
officials who worked at one of the 14 biggest defense contractors.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \13\ U.S. GOV'T ACCOUNTABILITY OFF., GAO-21-104311, Post-Government 
Employment Restrictions: DOD Could Further Enhance Its Compliance 
Efforts Related to Former Employees Working for Defense Contractors 
(2021).
    \14\ Id. at 6.
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           existing comprehensive ethics laws and regulations
    Executive Branch-wide ethics laws and regulations create a clear, 
consistent, and balanced framework that is appropriately tailored to 
promote integrity and prevent conflicts of interest when Executive 
Branch personnel enter and exit government employment.
    All Executive Branch employees are subject to a number of ethics 
statutes and regulations intended to prevent conflicts of interest. For 
example, the governing Federal criminal statute, 18 U.S.C. Sec.  208 
(Section 208), prohibits Executive Branch employees from participating 
in any particular matter that could affect their financial interests. 
OGE regulations, 5 C.F.R. Sec. Sec.  2635.501-03, prohibit Executive 
Branch employees from participating in matters that could cause the 
public to question their impartiality. Both the criminal statute and 
the impartiality regulation require a nexus between an employee's 
duties and the financial interest for a conflict of interest to arise.
    Section 208 broadly prohibits any Executive Branch employee from 
participating personally and substantially in any particular matter in 
which the employee knows that they have a financial interest that would 
be directly and predictably affected by the matter, or in which the 
employee knows that a person whose interests are imputed to the 
employee has a financial interest directly and predictably affected by 
that matter. An imputed financial interest can arise from a spouse, 
minor child, general partner, or any organization in which the 
Executive Branch employee serves as an officer, director, trustee, 
general partner, or current/prospective employee.
    Any waiver of Section 208's requirements requires approval by a 
supervisor, in consultation with an ethics official and OGE. \15\ OGE 
requires agencies to report, as part of an annual ethics program 
questionnaire, the number of statutory conflict of interest waivers 
granted in the previous calendar year. In DOD, such waivers are 
generally available only when no other reasonable alternative exists 
and are granted infrequently. For example, between 2017 and 2022, only 
one very limited waiver was granted. \16\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \15\ See 5 C.F.R. Sec.  2640.301 (providing the requirements for 
issuing an individual waiver under 18 U.S.C. Sec.  208(b)(1)).
    \16\ This waiver was granted for approximately 1 month to bridge 
the period between when the employee initiated divestiture of an 
investment fund with potentially conflicting holdings and the final 
redemption date.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    In addition, the longstanding cornerstone of Executive Branch-wide 
restrictions related to post-Government employment, 18 U.S.C. Sec.  
207, permanently prohibits all former Executive Branch personnel from 
representing a non-Federal entity (NFE) to any officer or employee of 
any agency within the executive, legislative, or judicial branches, as 
well as to any Federal court or court martial on a particular matter 
involving specific parties in which the former employee personally and 
substantially participated during Government service. \17\ And for 2 
years after leaving Government service, all former Executive Branch 
personnel are prohibited from representing an NFE to any officer or 
employee of any agency within the executive, legislative, or judicial 
branches, as well as to any Federal court or court martial on a 
particular matter involving specific parties that was pending under the 
former employee's official responsibility during the last year of 
Government service. \18\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \17\ See 18 U.S.C. Sec.  207(a)(1).
    \18\ See id. Sec.  207(a)(2).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    My SOCO team has prepared Attachment A, which contains a more 
detailed overview of the ethics compliance regime that applies to DOD 
personnel in relation to four topics: (1) incoming employee 
restrictions; (2) stock ownership; (3) seeking future employment in the 
course of Government service; and (4) post-Government employment.
       importance of clear, consistent, and balanced ethics laws
    Clear, consistent, and balanced ethics laws are essential to 
ensuring compliance and maintaining the public's trust. Clear laws are 
easy for personnel to understand and follow. Consistent laws fit within 
the overall statutory framework for regulating ethical conduct within 
the Executive Branch using common terminology and definitions to 
prevent confusion. Balanced laws are carefully tailored to avoid 
conflicts and preserve public trust, respect an individual's ability to 
use their professional education and experience after leaving 
Government service, and acknowledge the Government's interest in 
recruiting and retaining personnel with requisite experience and 
skills.
    The existing Executive Branch-wide ethics laws generally satisfy 
these criteria. On top of this longstanding body of law, we also 
benefit from years of detailed interpretive guidance provided by OGE, 
the Department of Justice, and the Federal courts. These time-tested 
standards protect against undue influence without unreasonably 
interfering with the ability of veterans and other public servants to 
use their education, skills, and experience to earn a living and 
support their families following service to the country. Other laws, 
such as the Procurement Integrity Act, are aligned with the intent and 
language used in these criminal conflict of interest laws and provide 
additional protections. Together, these laws take a clear, consistent, 
and balanced approach to preventing conflicts of interest while 
preserving DOD's ability to leverage the expertise of current and 
former personnel.
    There is always room for improvement, of course, and DOD supports 
well-coordinated and integrated efforts to enhance Executive Branch-
wide ethics laws. We have concerns, however, that additional DOD-
specific ethics laws \19\ can be counterproductive. DOD-specific 
statutes can introduce unnecessary complexity and confusion, 
particularly where they introduce terms and definitions that are 
incongruent with the existing Executive Branch ethics framework, and as 
a result they may ultimately undermine rather than promote our shared 
commitment to ethical conduct. DOD-specific laws may also put the 
Department at a disadvantage in recruiting and retaining expertise and 
can deter the top talent we need from participating in public-private 
talent exchanges.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \19\ See Attachment A (describing the DOD-specific statutes in more 
detail).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Recognizing that DOD-specific ethics laws could adversely affect 
DOD's participation in talent and knowledge exchange, recruitment, and 
retention, Congress has directed an independent review of the 
application and impact that DOD-specific ethics laws may have on these 
capabilities. As required by the fiscal year 2023 NDAA, we have entered 
into an agreement with an independent federally Funded Research and 
Development Center to conduct this study. The study will consider 
whether the enactment of DOD-specific ethics laws harms DOD's ability 
to share knowledge between Government and industry; is consistent with 
existing laws that apply to all Executive Branch employees; creates 
confusion; and could impact recruiting and retention.
    Once this comprehensive review is complete, I look forward to 
sharing the results with the Committee.
                     foreign government employment
    The U.S. Constitution places restrictions on the acceptance of 
foreign government employment by retired military personnel. The 
Emoluments Clause of the Constitution prohibits any person holding an 
``office of profit or trust''--which includes Service members even 
after they retire from the Service--from accepting compensation from a 
foreign government, or an entity controlled by a foreign government, 
without congressional consent. \20\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \20\ U.S. CONST. art. I, Sec.  9, cl. 8.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Congress has consented to the receipt of foreign government 
compensation by military retirees in some circumstances. Federal law 
allows the Military Department Secretaries to approve requests from 
military retirees to accept foreign government employment, subject to 
final review and approval by the Secretary of State. \21\ Congress 
requires DOD to report annually the number of retired Flag and General 
Officers who have received approval to accept foreign government 
employment. Since 2015, the Military Services have approved an average 
of 10 requests from retired Flag and General Officers each year. \22\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \21\ See 37 U.S.C. Sec.  908. In most cases, the Secretaries of the 
Military Departments have delegated their approval authority to another 
senior official.
    \22\ 37 U.S.C. Sec.  908, as amended in 2019, requires the 
Secretaries of the Military Departments, in consultation with the 
Secretary of State, to report the number of General and Flag Officers 
who receive approval to accept foreign government employment, including 
the name of the foreign government, the duties to be performed, and the 
total amount of compensation. The Military Departments reported 68 
approvals for General and Flag Officers from CY 2015 through CY 2019; 5 
in CY 2020; 5 in CY 2021; and 3 in CY 2022.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Military Service Procedures
    Each Military Service has implemented its own process for reviewing 
requests from military retirees for approval to accept foreign 
government employment. At a minimum, each Service requires review by a 
legal counsel and a senior human resources officer or other senior 
official prior to forwarding to the Secretary of State for final 
approval. The Secretary of State is the ultimate approval authority for 
foreign government employment. Applications not approved by the 
Services are not forwarded to the Secretary of State for review.
    To help ensure a consistent approach throughout the Department, the 
Undersecretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness recently directed 
the Military Services to assess their processes for reviewing requests 
for approval of foreign government employment by military retirees. The 
Military Services were directed to report the results of this 
assessment within 90 days, including any recommendations for 
improvement. The Department looks forward to briefing the Committee on 
the results of this assessment.
    Compliance with the Emoluments Clause is an individual 
responsibility and penalties for non-compliance are a personal 
financial liability. If the Department becomes aware of a potential 
violation of the Emoluments Clause, that potential violation is 
investigated by the Military Service. If a determination is 
subsequently made that the individual failed to obtain required advance 
approval for foreign government employment, that individual will owe a 
debt to the United States equal to the amount of compensation the 
individual received from the foreign government. Collection action, 
which may include offset of retiree pay, can be taken to satisfy the 
debt.
Other Foreign Government Employment Laws
    The primary criminal statute that governs post-Government 
employment, 18 U.S.C. Sec.  207, prohibits former senior and very 
senior Executive Branch personnel from representing or aiding a foreign 
entity with the intent to influence any employee of the Government or 
Member of Congress, and prohibits behind-the-scenes assistance, for 1 
year after leaving the relevant position, office, or employment. \23\ 
Any U.S. citizen who provides defense services to a foreign government 
may also be required to comply with State Department's International 
Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR). \24\ And Congress has required the 
Intelligence Community (IC) to restrict certain Executive Branch 
personnel and contractors assigned to IC elements from accepting 
employment with foreign governments, with oversight provided by the 
Director of National Intelligence and regular reporting to Congress. 
\25\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \23\ See 18 U.S.C. Sec.  207(f); see also 5 C.F.R. Sec.  
2641.206(a) (implementing the basic prohibition in 18 U.S.C. Sec.  
207(f)).
    \24\ See 22 U.S.C. Sec.  2278; see also 22 C.F.R. Parts 120-130. 
For an overview of ITAR and the underlying authorities published by the 
State Department, see https://deccs.pmddtc.State.gov/
deccs'id=ddtc_public_portal_itar_landing.
    \25\ See, e.g., 50 U.S.C. Sec.  3073a.
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                               conclusion
    DOD shares this Committee's commitment to maintaining the public's 
trust as we defend the Nation. My colleagues and I look forward to 
answering your questions.
                              attachment a
    This Attachment details the ethics compliance regime that applies 
to DOD personnel in four areas: (1) incoming employee restrictions; (2) 
stock ownership; (3) seeking future employment in the course of 
Government service; and (4) post-Government employment.
Incoming Employee Restrictions
    Restrictions related to former employment seek to balance the need 
to maintain public trust with the Government's need to benefit from the 
knowledge and expertise that employees bring from prior employment with 
industry, academia, and other non-Federal entities (NFEs).
    A criminal statute, 18 U.S.C. Sec.  208 (Section 208) provides that 
a conflict of interest can arise from former employment if an Executive 
Branch employee retains a financial interest in their former employer, 
such as owning company stock. \26\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \26\ See 18 U.S.C. Sec.  208(a).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Even absent a criminal conflict of interest, OGE regulations 
recognize that certain circumstances involving a member of an 
employee's household, or other ``covered relationships,'' could cause 
the public to question the employee's impartiality. All Executive 
Branch employees are prohibited from participating in a particular 
matter involving specific parties that they know is likely to affect 
the financial interests of a member of their household, or in which 
they know a person with whom they have a ``covered relationship'' is or 
represents a party to the matter if the employee or an agency designee 
determines that a reasonable person would question their participation. 
\27\ The regulatory definition of a ``covered relationship'' is broad 
and includes, inter alia, former and prospective employers of certain 
family members. \28\ If an Executive Branch employee raises an 
impartiality concern, an agency designee, generally a supervisor, can 
authorize that employee to participate in the matter only when the 
Government interest in the employee's participation outweighs the 
concern that a reasonable person may question the integrity of the 
agency's programs and operations. \29\
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    \27\ See 5 C.F.R. Sec.  2635.502.
    \28\ See id. Sec.  2635.502(b)(1).
    \29\ See id. Sec.  2635.502(d).
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    Without prior authorization, Executive Branch employees may not 
work on matters where their former employer is, or represents, a party 
for 1 year--the ``cooling off'' period. \30\ For civilian political 
employees, the current Administration's Ethics Pledge imposes a further 
2-year restriction on participating in particular matters involving a 
former employer or client for whom the employee performed services in 
the 2-years prior to appointment. \31\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \30\ See id. Sec.  2635.502(b)(1)(iv).
    \31\ Exec. Order No. 13989, 86 Fed. Reg. 7029 (Jan. 25, 2021).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    In the National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA) for fiscal year 
2022, Congress enacted an additional 2-year statutory prohibition 
specific to DOD personnel. \32\ That statute bars DOD personnel from 
participating in a matter in which their former employer is a party for 
2 years and appears to combine standards from Section 208 and the OGE 
impartiality regulations. \33\ Combining language from the criminal 
statute and the impartiality regulation creates a new and distinct 
standard substantively different from the standards that apply to all 
Executive Branch employees. While DOD has provided interpretive 
guidance and training to help personnel understand how the overlapping 
recusal standards apply, multiple standards create confusion and make 
it difficult even for well-intentioned employees to implement and 
understand applicable recusal requirements. \34\
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    \32\ See National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2022, 
Pub. L. No. 117-81, Sec.  1117, 135 Stat. 1541, 1955-1956 (2021) 
][hereinafter fiscal year 2022 NDAA].
    \33\ See id.
    \34\ See SOCO Advisory 22-01, ``Guidance Regarding Section 1117 of 
the National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2022,'' (Jan. 
11, 2022), available at https://dodsoco.ogc.osd.mil/Ethics-Program-
Resources/DOD-Ethics-Guidance/SOCO-Advisories/2022-SOCO-Advisories/.
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    As required by OGE regulations, financial conflicts of interest and 
impartiality responsibilities are addressed in the ethics training that 
new employees receive upon joining DOD. \35\ In accordance with OGE 
policy guidance, very senior personnel of the Executive Branch who have 
broad responsibilities inform their staffs in writing of their recusal 
from matters involving a former employer and implement rigorous 
screening processes to ensure that such matters are assigned to another 
appropriate employee. \36\
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    \35\ 5 C.F.R. Sec.  2638.304(e).
    \36\ OGE Memorandum DO-04-012 (June 1, 2004).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Stock Ownership
    Existing conflict of interest laws, together with DOD's robust 
training and screening processes, maintain an appropriate balance 
between individual property ownership rights and the public interest in 
avoiding conflicts.
    Section 208 provides that a criminal conflict of interest can arise 
when an Executive Branch employee, or their spouse or minor child, owns 
more than a de minimis amount \37\ of stock in a company and the 
employee is asked to take an official action that could affect the 
financial interest of that company. All Executive Branch employees have 
a duty to monitor their financial interests for any potential conflicts 
of interest that may arise between their financial holdings and their 
official duties. When a potential conflict of interest is identified, 
Executive Branch employees must either recuse themselves from taking 
any action that could affect the financial interest of the company in 
which they hold stock or divest the stock holding.
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    \37\ Federal regulations allow Executive Branch employees to 
participate in particular matters when the disqualifying financial 
interest arises from stock ownership with an aggregate market value 
that is less than an established regulatory de minimis amount, to 
include the holdings of the employee, the employee's spouse, and minor 
child(ren). See 5 C.F.R. Sec.  2640.202.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    DOD civilian officials appointed by the President, by and with the 
advice and consent of the Senate and DOD personnel in key acquisition 
positions face additional restrictions. These personnel are prohibited 
from owning more than a de minimis amount of stock in the largest ten 
defense contractors based on contract awards. \38\ Linking this 
restriction to a publicly available list of contracts awarded by DOD 
provides transparency and consistency, while allowing these personnel 
and their financial advisors to effectively ensure compliance with the 
requirement.
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    \38\ In 2019, Congress enacted 10 U.S.C. Sec.  988, which 
memorialized some of the Senate Armed Services Committee (SASC) 
policies requiring these personnel to divest of certain stock holdings. 
These personnel may not own or purchase, above OGE's regulatory ``de 
minimis'' amount, the ``stock of a company that is one of the 10 
entities awarded the most amount of contract funds by the Department of 
Defense in a fiscal year during the five preceding fiscal years.'' 
Referencing contracts awarded rather than revenue received allows the 
Department and its employees to consult a list of companies that the 
General Services Administration compiles annually and is publicly 
available. The list of companies who are among the top ten defense 
contractors captures all entities holding more than 1.5 percent of the 
total contracting dollars awarded by DOD. It generally includes some 
combination of the same 11 contractors, though unanticipated events--
like the COVID-19 pandemic--may occasionally result in changes.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Merely owning stock in a defense company is not enough to create a 
potential conflict of interest for DOD personnel--there must be some 
nexus between an employee's financial interests and their official 
duties. For example, a senior official at the Defense Commissary Agency 
may have conflicts with a major dairy supplier but has no conflict of 
interest with an aircraft manufacturer. Imposing broader divestiture 
requirements in addition to existing conflicts laws can create 
confusion without advancing important Government or public interests. 
Such requirements can also potentially prevent DOD from recruiting and 
retaining top talent and expertise.
  Seeking Employment
    Several statutes and regulations that apply across the Executive 
Branch seek to prevent even the appearance of partiality once Executive 
Branch personnel have had contact with an NFE regarding post-Government 
employment.
    Section 208 provides that a criminal conflict of interest can arise 
when Executive Branch personnel begin negotiating for future employment 
with an NFE. \39\ ``Negotiation'' means ``discussion or communication 
with another person, or such person's agent or intermediary, mutually 
conducted with a view toward reaching an agreement regarding possible 
employment with that person.'' \40\ Once negotiations have commenced, 
and during any time in which an employee has an arrangement for future 
employment with an outside organization, they are prohibited from 
participating in any particular matter that could affect the financial 
interests of that organization.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \39\ See 18 U.S.C. Sec.  208(a).
    \40\ 5 C.F.R. Sec.  2625.603(b)(i) (noting that the same definition 
also applies for 18 U.S.C. Sec.  208(a)).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    In addition to the statutory prohibition, ethics regulations 
require Executive Branch employees to recuse from matters that could 
affect the financial interests of any NFE with whom they are seeking 
employment. \41\ ``Seeking'' is a lower threshold than ``negotiating'' 
and includes, inter alia, ``unsolicited communication to any person, or 
such person's agent or intermediary, regarding possible employment with 
that person.'' \42\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \41\ See 5 C.F.R. Sec.  2635.604(a)(1).
    \42\ 5 C.F.R. Sec.  2635.603(b) (excluding unsolicited 
communication ``for the sole purpose of requesting a job application'' 
from this example).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Two additional statutes cover certain Executive Branch personnel 
seeking employment with an NFE. First, senior Executive Branch 
personnel must file a statement notifying their ethics counselor of any 
negotiation or agreement for future employment or compensation within 
three business days after commencement of the negotiation or execution 
of the agreement. \43\ Second, the Procurement Integrity Act imposes 
restrictions on Executive Branch personnel who personally and 
substantially participate in procurement for a contract in excess of 
the simplified acquisition threshold (currently $250,000) and are 
contacted by a bidder regarding non-Federal employment, or are seeking 
employment with a bidder. Such personnel must report the contact in 
writing and either reject the offer or disqualify themselves from 
further personal and substantial participation in that procurement. 
\44\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \43\ See Stop Trading on congressional Knowledge (STOCK) Act of 
2012, Pub. L. No. 112-105, Sec.  17, 126 Stat. 291, 293-94 (2012) (5 
U.S.C. Sec.  13103, note).
    \44\ See 41 U.S.C. Sec.  2103 (explaining that the agency could 
authorize the official to resume participation in the procurement, in 
accordance with 18 U.S.C. Sec.  208, on the grounds that: (1) the 
person is no longer a bidder or offeror in that procurement; or (2) all 
discussions regarding possible employment with the bidder or offeror 
have been terminated without an agreement or arrangement for 
employment).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    When seeking employment, as in other contexts, DOD personnel face 
additional restrictions specific to the Department. Section 1117 of the 
fiscal year 2022 NDAA (Pub. Law No. 117----81) prohibits DOD personnel 
from participating in a matter in which a prospective employer is or 
represents a party to the matter. \45\ The Executive Branch-wide 
restrictions discussed above already prohibit DOD personnel from 
participating in any matter that could affect the financial interest of 
a prospective employer.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \45\ See fiscal year 2022 NDAA, Pub. L. No. 117-81, 135 Stat. 1541, 
1955-56 (2021).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Post-Government Employment
    All former Executive Branch personnel are subject to ethics 
restrictions that aim to prevent improper influence \46\ and use of 
non-public information \47\ following Government service. These laws 
seek to both preserve public trust and allow former Government 
personnel to appropriately use their professional experience after 
leaving Government service.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \46\ See 18 U.S.C. Sec. Sec.  203, 207; see also 41 U.S.C. Sec.  
2104; 5 C.F.R. Sec.  2641.
    \47\ See 18 U.S.C. Sec.  1905; see also 18 U.S.C. Sec. Sec.  641, 
793, 794; 50 U.S.C. Sec.  783.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Executive Branch-wide restrictions related to post-Government 
employment are extensive. As discussed above, 18 U.S.C. Sec.  207 
prohibits all former Executive Branch personnel from representing an 
NFE on a particular matter involving specific parties to any officer or 
employee of any agency within the executive, legislative, or judicial 
branches on which the former employee personally and substantially 
participated during Government service. And for 2 years after leaving 
Government service, all former Executive Branch personnel are 
prohibited from representing an NFE to any officer or employee of any 
agency within the executive, legislative, or judicial branches, as well 
as to any Federal court or court martial on a particular matter 
involving specific parties that was pending under the former employee's 
official responsibility during the last year of Government service. 
\48\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \48\ See 18 U.S.C. Sec. Sec.  207(a)(1), (a)(2).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    For 1 year after leaving the Government, former senior Executive 
Branch officials may not represent an NFE to any personnel at their 
former agency, regardless of the matter. \49\ This one-year period 
extends for an additional year (to 2 years total) for any former 
Secretary of Defense, as well as other very senior personnel of the 
Executive Branch. \50\ During the covered periods, the law broadly 
restricts any communication or appearance by former Executive Branch 
personnel with the intent to influence official action. For 1 year 
after leaving Government, former senior and very senior Executive 
Branch officials may also not knowingly aid, advise, or represent a 
foreign government or foreign political party, with the intent to 
influence any officer or employee of the United States or any Member of 
Congress. \51\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \49\ See id. Sec.  207(c).
    \50\ See id. Sec.  207(d).
    \51\ See id. Sec.  207(f).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Outside of 18 U.S.C. Sec.  207, procurement integrity laws provide 
additional restrictions for certain former Government personnel. Former 
Government personnel are prohibited from accepting compensation from a 
contractor for 1 year if they served in certain positions or made 
certain decisions relative to an acquisition valued greater than $10 
million. \52\ The current Administration's Ethics Pledge imposes 
further post-Government employment restrictions on all civilian 
political appointees. \53\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \52\ See 41 U.S.C. Sec.  2104.
    \53\ See Exec. Order No. 13,989, 86 Fed. Reg. 7029 (Jan. 25, 2021).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    While extensive, these Executive Branch-wide laws are appropriately 
and narrowly targeted to prevent conflicts of interest between a former 
employee's position and duties and their subsequent non-Federal 
employment. Especially for a Department with nearly 675 distinct 
occupations across the globe, a targeted approach is critical. A former 
senior Air Force acquisition official in post-Government employment 
with an aircraft manufacturer presents vastly different potential 
conflict of interest concerns than a former senior official from the 
Defense Human Resources Agency seeking post-Government employment with 
the same company.
    Former DOD personnel are also subject to additional DOD-specific 
statutory requirements.
    For example, former DOD personnel who served in certain positions 
or took certain actions on an acquisition valued over $10 million 
during their last 2 years of service are required to obtain a written 
ethics opinion before accepting compensation from any defense 
contractor regardless of whether there was a nexus between the former 
employee's duties and their prospective employer. \54\ There are 
currently nearly 30,000 defense contractors. The written opinions are 
maintained for 5 years in a central DOD data base called the After 
Government Employment Advice Repository. Maintaining these opinions in 
a secure Government system ensures their ready availability to ethics 
officials and Inspectors General, while protecting the privacy and 
security interests of current and former DOD personnel.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \54\ See National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2008, 
Pub. L. No. 110-181, Sec.  847, 122 Stat. 3, 243-44 (2008).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Former senior DOD personnel are also subject to additional 
restrictions on certain communications back to the Government. Section 
1045 of the fiscal year 2018 NDAA created a confusing patchwork of DOD-
specific restrictions for ``covered individuals'' who are former DOD 
officers in the grade of O-7 and above, or an equivalent civilian 
level. \55\ The applicability of the restrictions depends upon the 
subject and nature of the proposed contact; the appointment status of 
the person to whom the contact is directed; and the agency within which 
the intended recipient works. By contrast, 18 U.S.C. Sec.  207 bars 
communication with all Federal personnel in the former senior 
official's prior agency without regard to the appointment status of the 
person to whom the contact is directed.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \55\ See National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2018, 
Pub. L. No. 115-91, Sec.  1045, 131 Stat. 1283, 1555-56 (2017).

    Senator Warren. Thank you very much. So, I am going to 
start with the first round of questions, and I just want to say 
how glad I am to have all four of you here today, that we have 
four general counsels for the Department of Defense, the Army, 
the Navy and the Air Force.
    The four of you are the top lawyers at the Pentagon, and it 
is your job to oversee compliance with our ethics laws. I am 
deeply grateful for your work. I obviously believe it is very 
important, and I appreciate your being here to explain to us 
and to say publicly how these laws work.
    What I want to do is I just want to kind of run through 
some examples and make sure I understand exactly how some of 
these pieces go. One of the key guardrails in our conflict of 
interest laws says that if an official is, ``personally and 
substantially involved'' in a Pentagon program and then leaves 
to go to work for a defense contractor, they are permanently 
barred from coming back and lobbying the Pentagon on behalf of 
the company on issues related to the program that they used to 
work on.
    Boy, do I get what we were trying to accomplish with that 
and I think that is terrific. I just want to look at maybe some 
loopholes in that.
    Ms. Krass, let's say that a Pentagon official helped write 
the contracts between the Pentagon and Lockheed Martin for a 
multibillion-dollar weapons program. Under current law, as 
written, would that person be prohibited from leaving the 
Pentagon and joining Lockheed Martin's board?
    Ms. Krass. Thank you, Senator. I absolutely share your 
commitment to maintaining the public's trust and to avoiding 
any appearance of conflicts. Applying these laws is very 
context dependent and fact specific, but in general, the 
procurement integrity laws would prevent an acquisition 
official from accepting any compensation from a defense 
contractor for----
    Senator Warren. So, anybody who helped write these 
contracts. When Jim Mattis was told that he couldn't represent 
Theranos on a particular matter, but that he was free to go 
join their board of directors, that was okay.
    Ms. Krass. I can't opine on that particular situation but--
--
    Senator Warren. That is what happened.
    Ms. Krass. But if, generally speaking, somebody has left, 
if they have worked on a particular matter involving specific 
parties, they may not come back to the Government on that 
particular matter.
    Senator Warren. But they can join the board of directors of 
the company that is talking to the Government.
    Ms. Krass. As I mentioned, if they are a former acquisition 
official, then they would not be able to, if they were involved 
in a contract of $10 million or more.
    Senator Warren. So, you don't think Jim Mattis was involved 
in any contracts worth $10 million or more? This is just public 
record.
    I am just going by what's public here. It looks like to me 
there is a big loophole for people who go off and just join the 
board of directors, which, by the way, is a pretty good job. 
Because it turns out, according to their SEC [Securities 
Exchange Commission] filings, Lockheed paid its board members 
more than $300,000 a year.
    It is a nice gig, so let me ask you another one. Ms. Krass, 
under our current ethics laws, would this person be allowed to 
be a consultant paid by Lockheed Martin, to advise Lockheed 
Martin on how to respond to DOD in order to win future 
contracts from the Pentagon, so long as they personally didn't 
come in and lobby. Would that be okay?
    Ms. Krass. They would not be able to--and again, these are 
all context dependent.
    Senator Warren. I understand that and we will keep that as 
a running objection.
    Ms. Krass. Okay. But they would not be allowed to use any 
proprietary information or any other non----
    Senator Warren. The point is--the question I am asking is, 
can they come in? Can they consultant and tell you how to do it 
as long as they are not the ones who show up in the office?
    Ms. Krass. I think under existing laws, they have to be 
careful not to use any proprietary or other nonpublic 
information.
    Senator Warren. Right, but otherwise, they get to do that. 
Let me try one more. Under current ethics laws, could this 
former Pentagon official's consulting work include helping 
Lockheed Martin develop a public campaign to win new contracts, 
including targeting former colleagues, again, so long as they 
don't do any direct lobbying themselves? Would that be okay?
    Ms. Krass. I think that, again, the same laws would apply 
in terms of not being able to use any proprietary----
    Senator Warren. I understand that. But the question I am 
asking is, can they come and do this under the current rules? 
You sound like you are reluctant to say yes, but we know it is 
happening. It is in the public domain. We have already read 
these stories. People have testified to it directly.
    Ms. Krass. What I can say is that on the DOD side of the 
equation, we are committed to--and our officials are committed 
to upholding the ethics laws and making sure that they are 
not----
    Senator Warren. I understand that you are committed to 
upholding them as written. I am not trying to give you a hard 
time here. I am just trying to see how effective what is 
written and what you have got to deal with.
    I get it that you can't enforce laws that don't exist. What 
I am trying to do is figure out from the point of view of the 
Congress whether or not we need to do a little more with those 
laws so that there aren't as many holes in them.
    Let me try another one. Mr. Beshar let's say that Raytheon 
hires this colonel 1 week after--oh, I have got one. I am 
sorry, I set it up wrong. Let's say we have an Army colonel who 
worked at the Defense Security Cooperation Agency, DSCA, which 
is responsible for overseeing arms sales to foreign countries.
    Mr. Beshar, let's say that Raytheon hires this colonel 1 
week after he retires from the military to help them lobby to 
speed up approval of a Patriot weapons system that will make 
them a lot of money. He reaches out to the Air Force, you get 
where I am going with this, for a meeting. Is there any reason 
an Air Force official can't take that meeting?
    Mr. Beshar. Senator Warren, Ranking Member Scott, Senator 
Kaine, I appreciate the opportunity to be here today. I am 
joined this morning by a number of my colleagues from the 
Ethics Department within the Air Force, and they provide a 
vital service to the Department and they do it well. To your 
specific example, provided that the hypothetical colonel is not 
subject to a lifetime bar or a 2-year----
    Senator Warren. That is my question. Is he subject to a 
lifetime bar if he goes over and lobbies the Army instead of 
DSCA?
    Mr. Beshar. Yes, and assuming that he is not subject to 
such a bar or a supervisory bar, then he could have such a 
meeting, because at that 06 level he is not subject to the 
cooling off period.
    Senator Warren. Okay. I am just trying to get how skinny 
this thing is. The last question I want to ask is about the one 
we were talking earlier about going to work for Saudi Arabia 
and other foreign countries.
    I just have a question around that, and maybe, Ms. Krass, 
you are the one to ask this. When this more than 95 percent 
approval rating that is coming through on the DOD approval of 
our high-ranking military officials going to work for foreign 
governments, I just want to ask, is there any requirement under 
current law for the Pentagon to consider whether this work 
would enhance the National Security of the United States of 
America?
    Ms. Krass. Yes, Senator Warren. The way that the system, as 
you, I am sure you well know, is set up is that the Emoluments 
Clause precludes accepting compensation or from working for a 
foreign government in Congress has consented--I mean, unless 
Congress consents, and Congress has consented to that in 
certain circumstances when the Secretary of the military 
department has approved and the Secretary of State has 
approved.
    Senator Warren. I understand that and I appreciate it, and 
I am way over time and my colleagues are being very generous 
with me.
    The question I am trying to ask you is, is there anything 
that requires the Pentagon to look at whether or not it is in 
our national interest to permit this general or admiral to go 
work for a foreign country?
    Ms. Krass. What I would like to do is to defer to any one 
of my colleagues, perhaps----
    Senator Warren. Mr. Coffey?
    Mr. Coffey.--because in fairness to Ms. Krass, Congress 
delegated the approval authority to the military--the 
Secretaries and really don't include the Secretary of Defense. 
Although always happy to get----
    Senator Warren. Fair enough. Fair enough.
    Mr. Coffey.--guidance from her friends on the third deck.
    Senator Warren. Glad to have the help.
    Mr. Coffey. Which we get a lot. The answer is, yes. In the 
Department of the Navy, there are--the standard is, would 
approving the employment be inimical to the National Security 
interests of the United States? That is sort of the headline.
    Senator Warren. Okay. That is inimical though.
    Mr. Coffey. Yes, it is. There are four sub-standards, which 
I am happy to share with you of the Department.
    Senator Warren. Okay.
    Mr. Coffey. But remember, we are talking about whether 
somebody who has served their country and has retired, what 
restrictions, if any, we are going to put on their employment.
    Senator Warren. Right.
    Mr. Coffey. Obviously, we have the Emoluments Clause and 
then we have permission from Congress if two Federal entities, 
two Executive Branch entities approve it.
    Senator Warren. Right.
    Mr. Coffey. The Department of the Navy and Secretary of 
State. So, the questions that are posed, and there is a very 
rigorous process, which I am happy to share with you either 
today during questions, or questions for the record afterwards. 
But among the questions that in the Navy and the Marine Corps--
are the following, whether the foreign civil employment will 
adversely affect----
    Senator Warren. Okay, I get adversely--you heard my 
question. You can just answer my one question. Do you, as part 
of your routine questions, ask, does having this admiral or 
general go work for a company that works for the People's 
Republic of China or for Saudi Arabia or for the UAE, enhance 
the National Security for the United States of America? Is that 
one of your questions?
    Mr. Coffey. Among the only files that I have reviewed, I 
have seen that discussion. For example----
    Senator Warren. Okay. Is that one of the questions you are 
internally required to ask? This shouldn't be that hard.
    Mr. Coffey. It is certainly in all of the various files 
that I have looked at, it is there. Ultimately the State 
Department decides whether it is in the interest of the United 
States and whether it should be approved. But it is----
    Senator Warren. That is what I am trying to get at. If 
anybody is actually looking at that. You are telling me it is a 
question that you answer each time, and the 95 plus percent 
that you approved, you believed that it would enhance the 
national interests of the United States of America for that 
general or that admiral to go work for the UAE or Saudi Arabia. 
Is that right? That is what you are telling me?
    Mr. Coffey. Madam Chair, what I am saying is that the 
standard is a negative standard. It is the opposite of what I 
said before. However, in the files that I reviewed----
    Senator Warren. That was the question I asked.
    Mr. Coffey. That is where, and I will just say that Under 
Secretary Cisneros has directed each of the Mil-Dep Secretaries 
to take 90 days to look at this and come up with whether we can 
do this a better way. I can tell you we are all jumping in on 
that. I have had a chance to look at how Army does it, how Air 
Force does it. We think we can improve it. We are looking at 
that.
    Senator Warren. Please understand, I am not your enemy here 
and I am not the enemy of the people who are sitting behind 
you.
    I am grateful for the work you do. I just want you to have 
the tools so that you are getting backed up by the
    U.S. Congress and that you are not in a position where the 
standard is so flimsy or where there are so many exceptions 
that there are other ways to accomplish what it is that we 
clearly didn't want to have happen.
    I am just really concerned. I see a 95 percent plus 
approval rating to go work for countries like Saudi Arabia and 
the UAE, and countries that have terrible human rights abuses, 
and I think, ``how could that be good for the United States of 
America?'' That, to me, has to be our standard. I just want to 
get us in the right place. Senator Scott.
    Senator Scott. Thank you, Chairwoman. First of, thanks to 
each of you for being here. I appreciate the fact you guys were 
willing to go through the horrible confirmation process that 
each of you went through, I wouldn't want to do that. I don't 
know if it is worse than an election.
    Senator Warren. It is not----
    [Laughter.]
    Senator Scott. Have any of you approved anybody, since you 
have been there, do you know of anybody that has been approved 
to work for China? To go to work for or either the government 
of China, an entity controlled by the government of China, or a 
company majority owned by Chinese officials? Do you know of 
any?
    Ms. Ricci. The Army does not.
    Senator Scott. You don't have any?
    Mr. Coffey. Nor does the Navy, Senator.
    Mr. Beshar. I believe we are in the same position, Senator.
    Senator Scott. Okay. I don't want you to breach of 
confidence, but without naming a name, could you give me an 
example of where somebody got turned down.
    Because you heard what we were told, that 95 percent of the 
people are getting approved, right. I don't know if that is 
good or bad. You could argue--I mean, I think Senator Kaine 
would say that it seems a little high, right.
    Maybe just everybody is doing a really good job of 
compliance, right. So, give me an example of people who have 
gotten turned down.
    Mr. Coffey. I will start. Again, I am going to be very 
generic. An applicant was denied in part because of the 
counterintelligence diligence that had been done and it felt it 
would be adverse to the National Security, if it were approved.
    Mr. Beshar. Senator Scott, I thought it might be helpful to 
briefly describe the way we have changed our process at the 
Department of the Air Force.
    In 2020, we overhauled the protocols and the policy for 
approving or reviewing foreign government employment. There are 
three changes in particular that were made. First was to create 
a board, a three-person board for the first time that would 
review these applications.
    Second was to articulate a clear standard. Some of the 
questions that Senator Warren asked, would this potential 
engagement be embarrassing to the United States is an example, 
has a proper counterintelligence assessment been performed by 
the Air Force Office of Special Counsel, and has the country in 
question taken actions that would be contrary to the interests 
of the United States.
    The third important change was putting a 3-year temporal 
limit on any approvals that are granted so that the individual, 
after 3 years, if they wanted to continue, would have to come 
back into the process to the Department of the Air Force.
    Senator Scott. Okay.
    Ms. Ricci. Senator Scott, in the Army, there have been some 
of these approvals and we have found that we have had to--there 
have been denials for people with derogatory information in 
their files that would reflect negatively on the United States 
and would also make them susceptible to foreign influence.
    I also want to add, I know that Senator Warren mentioned 
the UAE and Saudi Arabia. I have looked at the approvals in the 
files, and they are largely connected to our foreign military 
sales programs.
    The vast majority of Army personnel who have been approved 
have not been general officers. They have been maintainers who 
have been hired by these countries to help maintain the 
equipment that through security cooperation, the Government has 
determined it is in our interest for these--to make these sales 
to these countries.
    These soldiers who are now retired have been able to find 
employment with them, maintaining the same equipment that they 
maintain for the Army. That has been the majority of our 
approvals.
    Senator Scott. So, have you--I assume what you guys do 
every day, you have the process you talked about. You have a 
process and you go through the process. Have any of you come to 
a point where you say, ``I don't think we should do this, but I 
don't have the authority to not allow it to happen?'' Have you 
ever felt like that in any case where you think, ``no, we 
shouldn't really be doing this, but you can't stop it?''
    Mr. Beshar. Senator Scott, very briefly. We have had 
instances where individuals have withdrawn because of some of 
the rigors of the process. Also, the concept broadly that the 
Congress has really created a two-pronged approval.
    The focus of the Department of the Air Force is more on 
security and counterintelligence, whereas the State Department 
is the final approval authority, is a bit more on the foreign 
policy considerations.
    Ms. Ricci. Yes, Senator Scott, I have not felt that way at 
all. In fact, the Army has undertaken a review of our 
regulation because we want to strengthen our requirements, and 
our requirements currently exceed what is required under the 
statute.
    Mr. Coffey. I concur. I don't feel that way. I do think 
taking a hard look at how we do things and see if we can 
tighten things up and get on the same page as our sister 
departments is a good exercise and we are doing that now.
    Senator Scott. Have you felt like--just and I don't think 
you guys were there for any of it, but have you felt like there 
is a difference between administrations and how this is 
handled? Has it changed much, you know, when you guys came in?
    Mr. Coffey. On foreign government employment, sir?
    Senator Scott. Yes.
    Mr. Coffey. Certainly, preparing for the hearing today, 
none of us were here in the prior Administration. I certainly 
did not detect any material difference in how things were 
treated. Perhaps that is consistent with the 95 percent 
approval rate.
    Senator Scott. Have you seen anything different?
    Ms. Ricci. I have not seen anything different in the Army. 
There was a dip in applications because of the COVID period. 
There was about a 2-year period where we had far fewer. But 
comparing the before and the current, I have not seen any 
change in how they are treated or evaluated.
    Senator Scott. Do you guys feel any pressure from anybody 
to be more lax or be more strict? Is there any political 
pressure at all that you guys ever feel?
    Ms. Ricci. Senator, not at all. In fact, I will say that in 
the Army we have individuals, we have individuals who come 
forward even when they know it is not a foreign government, but 
it is a company working in that foreign government, out of an 
abundance of caution.
    We encourage that and we find that this is very helpful. We 
just are pleased to say that there is a high compliance rate. 
That probably speaks to why so many are approved, because it is 
a self-reporting requirement and these are responsible 
individuals seeking solid employment.
    Senator Scott. You make the argument that people have been 
in the military probably are real followers, to a great extent.
    Ms. Ricci. Exactly. Yes, yes.
    Senator Scott. Thanks.
    Senator Warren. Senator Kaine.
    Senator Kaine. Just to pick up on it, the 95 percent figure 
I just find very troubling. This is different than Committee on 
Foreign Investment in the United States (CFIUS), but there is 
some an analog and I am sure that the CFIUS approval rate is at 
95 percent based on my own experience and working with American 
companies, where there is going to be some investment by, you 
know, a Chinese food company into Smithfield Foods.
    The degree to which that gets scrutiny enough from two 
sources but from multiple sources, is pretty intense. I bet the 
approval rate is at 95 percent. I credit that, (A) probably 
people don't apply if it is a stretch, okay. So, a lot of 
military folks wouldn't push the envelope; (B) they withdraw 
maybe in the middle of the process and that is not counted as a 
turn down, so that reduces the number; and (C) that--Ms. Ricci, 
I appreciate you pointing out this maintainer point. If the 
U.S. is approving foreign military sales of a platform and 
there is a specific need to maintain that platform, that would 
seem to be an obvious case where it might be warranted.
    But I just still am troubled by a 95 percent approval 
rating. There is just something odd about that to me. I am not 
surprised that it may not be different among Administrations, 
but I applaud the fact that the DOD is now doing a 90-day 
assessment of this, because that seems unusual.
    I wondered if Congress were just to do one thing in this 
and say, and if approved, there must be some report to Congress 
about it and it should be public. I wonder if that might change 
either, (A) who applies or, (B) what gets approved, or both. 
But this is helpful. Let me ask you one other thing.
    A number of us have filed a bill to restrict the ability of 
Members of Congress to trade in stocks because we get all kinds 
of information, sometimes classified, sometimes not, but 
information that the general public doesn't get that could 
affect our ability to trade stocks.
    I have cosponsored a bill with Senator Merkley and others, 
and there are other bills out there that essentially attempt 
the same thing. From an ethics standpoint within the service 
branches, what is the normal protocol to analyze whether 
people's financial holdings pose conflicts of interest in the 
work that they do?
    Mr. Coffey, you jump to the mic. You look like you are 
moving to the mic first, so I am going to ask you.
    Mr. Coffey. I think Mr. Beshar looked over me and--well, I 
think it starts with the Criminal Code, 18 USC 208 which states 
that you are not to participate in any matter that might affect 
you or your family's financial status.
    That is a pretty, pretty stark rule. I know there has been 
a lot of talk about whether you make certain laws applicable 
down to 06s or below, etcetera, but that law applies to 
everybody, regardless of you are an acquisition or anything 
else. So, then you have more specific laws specifically 
directed at stocks.
    All of us had to divest if we owned any defense stocks to 
de minimis, or for the well-counseled people, to zero, and 
ensure that we are just crystal clean on that. From my 
perspective, and I am very proud of the ethics program with the 
Department of the Navy, we have 900 ethics counselors.
    From day one, you are told about ethical behavior. We have 
annual reviews. We have 41,000 people who file financial 
disclosure forms, every one of which is reviewed by a 
supervisor who knows what they are working on and can detect 
whether there is any nexus between their financial status and 
what they are working on.
    I think we have in place a clear, consistent, and balanced 
program. We can always improve it. Whatever you give us in 
terms of laws, we will vigorously enforce. But I think the 
current State of play, as the GAO found in the 2021 report, was 
we have a pretty effective program.
    Frankly, there are some benefits when I am sitting across 
from somebody who served to know that they can explain to their 
fellow board members or others at the company why we need that 
tech data for that F-35. That, and I would like to think that 
they are in there explaining to their fellow board members this 
is why they are being pains in the butt, it is because they 
really need it.
    I think like the GAO found, there are some benefits to 
having veterans in the Pentagon who have been in private 
industry. I wasn't in the defense industry, but I can see the 
benefits of it and vice versa for people who have retired, and 
in order to make a living, go work for the defense Industry.
    Senator Kaine. I will just hand it back to the Chair. I can 
see benefits, too. I mean, I can definitely see benefits both 
directions, but I just want there to be appropriate guardrails 
so that the benefits of expertise are not overcome by abuses, 
even if not ill-intended. There can be kind of an unintentional 
slippage toward abuse, and I think we need to guard against 
that. But thank you all, and I will hand it back to you, Madam 
Chair.
    Senator Warren. Thank you, Senator Kaine. In fact, I want 
to followup on Senator Kaine's questions. I take this one kind 
of personally. A few years ago, I pushed hard for a law that we 
passed that barred many Department of Defense officials from 
owning more than $15,000 in stock in the largest defense 
contractors. It is a law that you all are now out there 
enforcing.
    That law also says that senior officials who work on 
contracts can't own or buy large amounts of stock in 
contractors that were the top ten recipients of DOD dollars in 
the last 5 years. And for everyone, DOD is supposed to make 
sure that no one is working on a project that has stock 
holdings that could create a conflict of interest, going into 
your general point about this. But I want to talk a little bit 
about the big gaps here.
    We saw a recent Wall Street Journal report that highlighted 
the case of the DOD policy official who owned somewhere between 
$15,000 and $50,000 of stock in the Chinese company Alibaba, 
who was actively working on a policy about whether Alibaba's 
ties to China meant that the company should be on a list of 
companies that Americans could not invest in.
    Two weeks after the official purchased the stock, Alibaba 
got what it wanted. It was omitted from the list of prohibited 
companies, and the company's stock increased immediately by 4 
percent. A nice return in a very short period of time.
    Ms. Krass, Alibaba is not a defense contractor, so current 
law did not prevent this DOD official from owning its stock. 
But ethics officers still should have spotted that his 
possession gave him insider information that could boost his 
personal finances, going to the point that Mr. Coffey made, and 
could influence the advice that he was giving to the 
Government, a possible conflict of interest here.
    I understand, you were not at DOD when this happened. But 
why didn't DOD officials pick up that this was a conflict of 
interest? There clearly is a conflict here, right?
    Ms. Krass. Senator, absolutely. I agree that employee may 
not participate in any matter in which they have a financial--
--
    Senator Warren. Why didn't they pick this up?
    Ms. Krass.--and they need to either have recused themselves 
from those matters or they need to have divested of the 
financial interest so as to avoid the problem. As you 
mentioned, I was not at the Department at the time, and I am 
happy to take back any questions that you have on that.
    Senator Warren. I guess that is, I don't know?
    Ms. Krass. What I do know is that my team works extremely 
hard, as Mr. Coffey indicated.
    Senator Warren. I understand that. Let me ask about another 
loophole. Stock ownership limits apply to certain senior 
Department officials, but they do not apply to everyone. Would 
the Chief of Staff to Secretary Austin or the Chief to the 
Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff be allowed to own $30,000 
in Lockheed Martin, DOD's top contractor?
    Ms. Krass. In the review of a financial disclosure form, 
any potential conflicts are identified and it is determined 
whether or not an employee would need to divest the stock 
because they can't perform their duties appropriately, if they 
were to continue to hold the stock and recuse themselves. There 
is the other option to recuse. If it would interfere with the 
employee's performance of their official duties in a 
significant way----
    Senator Warren. The person has come to you for advice. Are 
they covered by the current statute? This is somebody who is 
not confirmed by the Senate and is not an acquisitions officer. 
Are they covered by this rule?
    Ms. Krass. By 18 USC 208, everybody is covered by that 
rule.
    Senator Warren. You are saying you would tell them they 
have to divest the stock?
    Ms. Krass. Yes. I would either have them divest or recuse 
depending on what the scope of their official duties would be.
    Senator Warren. Okay. I hope that is the advice that you 
are giving. Let me ask one more. If the Chief of Staff to 
Secretary Austin helps make decisions about whether or not 
their boss should meet with the company. They don't give advice 
on acquisitions, but they decide who gets access. This is the 
gatekeeper. Does that change whether or not they can own 
$30,000 of Lockheed Martin stock?
    Ms. Krass. They would still--that is beyond the de minimis 
amount and they would not be able to participate in a decision 
about whether to recommend a meeting unless they had divested 
of the stock.
    Senator Warren. Okay, I hope that is the case. That is not 
what public reporting seems to indicate, but I hope that is the 
case.
    I want to do one more and then I will quit, and hand this 
over to Senator Scott. Some of the recent biggest procurement 
fights have been between smaller but still huge tech companies 
like Oracle, Microsoft, Amazon, who are all fighting over which 
company was going to get the $10 billion Joint Enterprise 
Defense Infrastructure (JEDI) contract, which would have 
provided cloud computing for DOD.
    One of the Pentagon officials involved in deciding which 
company got the contract owned Microsoft stock. Now, Microsoft 
had received $400 million in DOD contracts, which is not high 
enough for them to be listed in the prohibited stock list.
    DOD is just supposed to keep an eye out for problems if 
they pop up here. The official disclosed that she owned 
Microsoft stock to DOD, she disclosed it to DOD. Did anyone at 
DOD say that this was a problem given her acquisitions' role?
    Ms. Krass. Again, as we were discussing, you----
    Senator Warren. This is a matter of public record.
    Ms. Krass. Yes, but I was receiving my tenure, Senator, and 
I cannot speak to the specifics of that, but I would be happy 
to, again, take any questions.
    Senator Warren. Well, I will just tell you the answer, no. 
It was not raised by DOD. DOD did not have a problem with this. 
Ultimately, in this case, the person was referred for 
prosecution.
    But I am concerned about the process here. I am concerned 
that we are keeping too narrow. I understand the overall rule 
is a conflicts rule, but I am concerned that we are too narrow 
in what we look at and how we define it and whether we get 
enough disclosure that these pop up and we can see them.
    Then I am concerned about the fact that we don't have 
public reporting of this so that, quite frankly, somebody to 
look over your shoulder and say, I get it, I see what is 
happening here, and here is where I disagree, and we need to 
tighten up the laws. That is the part that I am worried about, 
and that is what this is about today. Senator Scott.
    Senator Scott. Do you think more public disclosure would be 
helpful? I got to be honest, I was Governor of Florida for 8 
years, everything was public. You just got used to it. Every 
text, every email, everything was public record. So, it is--
life is actually, for me, I came to the conclusion life is 
easier. Everybody knows everything. So, what do you all think?
    Ms. Krass. Yes, I will start and then invite my colleagues 
to join me. I think that as we think about increased 
transparency, we of course have already published financial 
disclosure form reports. But I think we just need to always be 
mindful of any privacy interests that are at stake.
    Of course, the Privacy Act does not apply between us, you 
know, as branches of Government, but it does apply to us as the 
Executive Branch in disclosing individuals' information, and so 
we just need to be mindful of that.
    Senator Scott. They didn't worry about it when I was 
Governor. I mean, every text, every email, everything is 
public. So, you learn to be smart.
    Ms. Krass. I try to write my emails as if they might become 
public just in case.
    Senator Scott. Yes. Do you all think more transparency 
would be helpful?
    Mr. Coffey. Well, as a general principle, it is hard to 
disagree with that, but I do think there are privacy interests 
involved.
    I look forward to seeing what the independent commission 
comes up with that Congress has directed to see what they come 
up with on that idea. Senator Warren, to make you feel better, 
I certainly think that the Department of the Navy breeds 
ethical behavior. We had a big black eye a few years ago with 
Glenn Defense Marine Asia (GDMA).
    We set the tone at the top and it is--from the day you get 
in the door and when you are leaving, it is about ethical 
behavior. We have bad eggs. We are big department.
    You are going to have a couple of bad eggs, but I can tell 
you, when I hear someone wants to come to see the Secretary, 
the answer is, if you see that person, you are going to see 
everybody in that industry.
    You are not going to play favorites, and we have a lot of 
ethical advisers at the Secretariat and all up and down the 
chain of command. I just want to leave you with some comfort 
that we are being very vigorous in our enforcement of the 
ethics laws.
    If you decide to give us some new ones, all we ask for, at 
least on my part, is that they be clear so we can advise our 
people. That they be consistent----
    Senator Scott. It is easier, right?
    Mr. Coffey. Yes.
    Senator Warren. We are very much in that direction. But let 
me just ask you, privacy interests, what is the privacy 
interest, and you work for the Department of Defense, and you 
own defense industry stock. What is the privacy interest?
    Mr. Coffey. Well, again, I think in part the trial lawyer 
keeps thinking about causation and the link. There needs to be 
a link between the financial interests of the person to the 
Department of Defense and what they do----
    Senator Warren. No. If you are a lawyer, you understand 
appearance of impropriety. We don't ask for lawyers or judges 
to actually prove that this person has a conflict of interest. 
We talk about the appearance and why the appearance matters, 
because our job is to build public confidence.
    You build public confidence when everybody knows that every 
email is going to be disclosed. You build public confidence 
when you say if you want to invest, have at it, but don't 
invest in Department of Defense stocks if you work for the 
Department of Defense.
    That one is just a no, and if that so crimps your investing 
style, then go work somewhere else. I just don't get why this 
is a privacy issue. I don't know what is there. Sorry, I 
interrupted, Senator Scott.
    Senator Scott. Now, we have to disclose everything. Run for 
office. They expect you to disclose everything.
    Senator Warren. My taxes are online.
    Senator Scott. Have you referred anybody--any of you refer 
to anybody for criminal prosecution?
    Mr. Coffey. As a department? Certainly. The answer is yes.
    Senator Scott. You have while you have been there?
    Mr. Coffey. Yes, and I will say that as a result of The 
Washington Post articles, and we have checked and some of the 
people in the article did not apply, and we are proceeding 
accordingly. I will just leave it there.
    Senator Scott. Okay. Anybody else?
    Mr. Beshar. We are in a similar position, Senator Scott, 
and I very much like the way you opened the hearing by saying 
that there is always opportunity for improvement. I think any 
leader should have the mindset of continuous improvement.
    A number of the studies that are being done, whether it is 
the review by Undersecretary Cisneros, what he has directed on 
foreign government employment, or it is the 1073 review that 
will look into really the post-Government employment 
restrictions and where is the right balance to be struck. I 
think all of us are trying to have an open mind about how we 
can make our protocols and procedures as appropriate as we can.
    Senator Scott. Have you have had to? Have you had to refer 
anybody--?
    Ms. Krass. I have not.
    Ms. Ricci. I have not during my tenure.
    Senator Scott. Okay. Just to finish, the question about 
Alibaba, could you just get us information, if there is--you 
might not be able to find any information, but if you do, can 
you get it to Senator Warren and me?
    Ms. Krass. Yes.
    Senator Scott. I mean, I think it is pretty interesting, 
right, so technically--you shouldn't be able to do that. I mean 
if those are the facts. This is something that was written, so 
if those are the facts, those are the facts, right. Okay, thank 
you. Thanks for doing your job, by the way.
    Senator Warren. Yes, and I do. I appreciate the work that 
you all do. I just want to give you the tools so you can do it 
even better. I want to thank all of our witnesses for their 
testimony today on the first and second panel.
    I also want to thank Jon Clark, and Gary Leeling, and Andy 
Scott, and Sofia Kamali, and Noah Sisk, and Jenny Davis, and 
Sean O'Keefe, and Katie Magnus, and Brendan Gavin for their 
work in putting together today's hearing. These hearings take a 
lot of work, and I appreciate all that they have done.
    We just go into this with a mindset of we want to do 
better. We want to have complete confidence that when the 
Department of Defense submits a budget, it is because the 
Department of Defense and its top officials believe this is 
what is best for the United States of America, this is not 
something that helps out some particular individual in their 
personal financial circumstances.
    That is all we are looking for here, is the best way to 
tell that to the American people. Appreciate your work, and 
with that, we close this hearing. We are done. Thank you.
    [Whereupon, at 4:44 p.m., the Subcommittee adjourned.]

    [Questions for the record with answers supplied follow:]

            Questions Submitted by Senator Elizabeth Warren
                       stock trading restrictions
    1. Senator Warren. Ms. Krass, has the Department of Defense (DOD) 
reviewed Reed Werner's ownership of Alibaba stock given his reported 
official activities that would impact the company?
    Ms. Krass. From 2019 to 2021, Mr. Werner served as the Deputy 
Assistant Secretary of Defense (DASD) for South & Southeast Asia, which 
is comprised of the following countries:
    India, Bangladesh, Bhutan, Diego Garcia, Maldives, Nepal, Sri 
Lanka, Brunei, Burma, Cambodia, East Timor, Indonesia, Laos, Malaysia, 
Philippines, Singapore, Thailand, and Vietnam. (https://
policy.defense.gov/OUSDP-Offices/ASD-for-Indo-Pacific-Security-Affairs/
)
    Mr. Werner's official area of responsibility and authority did not 
extend to China, as there is a separate DASD for China. The then-Deputy 
Secretary of Defense approved DOD's list of Communist Chinese military 
companies submitted to Congress in accordance with section 
1237(b)(4)(B) of Public Law 105-261, as amended, based on the 
recommendation of the then-Under Secretary of Defense for Acquisition 
and Sustainment (USD(A&S)). The Acting Assistant Secretary of Defense 
for Indo-Pacific Security Affairs at the time, David Helvey, concurred 
with the USD(A&S)'s recommendation, and his position was informed by 
the DASD for China at the time, Chad Sbragia. DASD Werner did not play 
a role in this recommendation. The Department has reviewed the 
allegations in the Wall Street Journal's October 11, 2022 article and 
is taking appropriate action.

    2. Senator Warren. Ms. Krass, has DOD concluded any ethics laws 
were violated by Reed Werner? If so, what actions has DOD taken?
    Ms. Krass. See response to question 1 above.

    3. Senator Warren. Ms. Krass, how many DOD personnel have disclosed 
to DOD that they own stock in defense contractors that are prohibited 
by 10 U.S.C. 988?
    Ms. Krass. Relevant reports filed in the Office of Government 
Ethics (OGE) Integrity.gov public financial disclosure system covering 
calendar years 2020 to 2023 indicate that 35 individuals reported 
holding stock valued in excess of the de minimis amount in an entity 
appearing on the Top Ten List for the relevant reporting period. None 
of these individuals were covered officials and therefore did not hold 
stock in violation of 10 U.S.C. Sec.  988.

    4. Senator Warren. Ms. Krass, are any specific actions taken when 
DOD personnel disclose they own stocks prohibited by 10 U.S.C. 988?
    Ms. Krass. Officials subject to 10 U.S.C. Sec.  988 are required to 
file the OGE 278e Public Financial Disclosure Report annually, as well 
as to submit OGE 278-T Periodic Transaction Reports promptly upon the 
purchase, sale, or exchange of certain securities, including stocks. In 
addition to requiring review by ethics officials, DOD requires 
supervisory review of these financial disclosure reports to identify 
any potential conflicts of interest with the filer's duties. If an 
official subject to Section 988 comes into possession of a prohibited 
stock (for example, through inheritance), ethics officials will advise 
the individual of the requirement to divest promptly and work with the 
individual to ensure that appropriate recusals and screening 
arrangements are in place until divestiture is accomplished.

    5. Senator Warren. Ms. Krass, in the past 10 years how many times 
has DOD requested personnel divest stock ownership to avoid a real or 
perceived conflict of interest?
    Ms. Krass. DOD has effective measures to safeguard against 
conflicts of interest. Federal statutes and implementing regulations 
prohibit personnel from participating personally and substantially in 
any particular matter that would have a direct and predictable effect 
on their actual or imputed financial interests. The mechanisms for 
preventing conflicts of interest include recusal, divestiture and re-
assignment. Where a potential conflict of interest exists, ethics 
officials will work with the individual and his or her supervisor to 
determine the most appropriate mechanism under the applicable 
circumstances. , DOD does not maintain a comprehensive historical data 
base of these actions, which are specific to the individual and 
circumstances at the time. However, individuals who are required to 
divest of a security may request a certificate of divestiture from the 
Office of Government Ethics (OGE). OGE publicly posts certificates of 
divestiture obtained by senior officials on its website at: https://
oge.gov/Web/OGE.nsf/Officials%20Individualpercent20 
Disclosures%20Search%20Collection

    6. Senator Warren. Ms. Krass, in the past 10 years have there been 
any instances in which personnel refused to divest or take other 
actions for prohibited stock ownership? What action occurred if so?
    Ms. Krass. I am not aware of any instances in which personnel 
refused to divest or take other actions for prohibited stock ownership.
    DOD has effective measures to safeguard against conflicts of 
interest. Federal statutes and implementing regulations prohibit 
personnel from participating personally and substantially in any 
particular matter that would have a direct and predictable effect on 
their actual or imputed financial interests. The mechanisms for 
preventing conflicts of interest include recusal, divestiture and re-
assignment. Where a potential conflict of interest exists, ethics 
officials will work with the individual and their supervisor to 
determine the most appropriate mechanism under the applicable 
circumstances.

    7. Senator Warren. Ms. Krass, how many DOD personnel in acquisition 
positions have disclosed to DOD they own stock in companies that were 
the top 100 contractors for DOD in fiscal year 2021?
    Ms. Krass. DOD is a large organization with a diversity of missions 
among its 2.8 million personnel across three military departments and 
33 distinct agencies and components, including an acquisition workforce 
of almost 190,000 personnel. This diversity means that potential for 
conflicts of interest, even for acquisition personnel, vary widely 
depending on an employee's organization and actual duties. DOD has over 
3,000 ethics officials located around the world at every level of the 
Department to train and advise DOD acquisition and other personnel. 
Contracting officers and certain other acquisition personnel are 
required to file financial disclosure reports, which are reviewed by 
the employee's supervisor prior to review and certification by ethics 
officials. Financial disclosure systems do not track and report data 
concerning assets listed by individuals in a specific job series. 
However, DOD's financial disclosure review procedures are effective in 
preventing and addressing conflicts of interest, particularly when 
combined with DOD's extensive training programs, active mitigation 
through recusal, divestiture, or reassignment, and, when necessary, 
enforcement.
                post-government employment restrictions
    8. Senator Warren. Ms. Krass, how many opinions are currently in 
DOD's After Government Employment Advice Repository (AGEAR)?
    Ms. Krass. As mandated by Section 847 of the National Defense 
Authorization Act (NDAA) for Fiscal Year 2008, Pub. L. No. 110-181 
(``Section 847'') the Department of Defense is required to retain 
written requests and opinions in AGEAR for 5 years for certain 
``covered officials'' who, within 2 years of leaving DOD, expect to 
receive compensation from any defense contractor. Since 2018, 
approximately 1,300 post-Government employment opinions have been 
retained in AGEAR.

    9. Senator Warren. Ms. Krass, how many opinions in DOD's AGEAR 
concluded the individual had a lifetime ban on certain post-government 
activities?
    Ms. Krass. Under 18 U.S.C. Sec.  207(a)(1), all Executive Branch 
employees have a lifetime criminal ban on representing others on 
particular matters involving specific parties in which they 
participated personally and substantially during their Government 
service.
    Section 847 of the NDAA for fiscal year 2008 requires certain DOD 
officials to request and receive a written opinion regarding the 
applicability of post-employment restrictions before receiving 
compensation from any DOD contractor. Section 847 applies to current 
and former DOD officials who participated personally and substantially 
in an acquisition with a value in excess of $10 million (``the 
Acquisition'') while serving in: (1) an Executive Schedule position; 
(2) a Senior Executive Service position; (3) a general or flag officer 
position; or (4) in the position of program manager, deputy program 
manager, procuring contracting officer, administrative contracting 
officer, source selection authority, member of the source selection 
evaluation board, or chief of a financial or technical evaluation team.
    The same type of participation that triggers the section 847 
requirements also triggers a lifetime criminal ban under 18 U.S.C. 
Sec.  207(a)(1). Thus, all DOD officials subject to Section 847 will 
also have a lifetime criminal ban from representing a prospective 
employer (or any Non-Federal Entity (NFE)) back to the Government with 
regard to the Acquisition. Furthermore, depending on the DOD official's 
position and/or participation relative to the Acquisition, the DOD 
official may also have a ban from accepting any compensation from the 
prime contractor for that acquisition for 1 year under the Procurement 
Integrity Act, 41 U.S.C. Sec.  2104.

    10. Senator Warren. Ms. Krass, what entities or programs do 
opinions in AGEAR cite as having a lifetime ban on certain post-
government activities?
    Ms. Krass. The lifetime criminal ban under 18 U.S.C. Sec.  
207(a)(1) is triggered by personal and substantial participation in 
``particular matters involving specific parties,'' and such matters 
include all contracts and acquisitions regardless of value. Section 847 
requires written post-Government employment opinions for certain DOD 
officials who participated in acquisitions over $10 million and plan to 
work for a DOD contractor to be stored in AGEAR. Thus, all individuals 
requesting and receiving an opinion that is stored in AGEAR have, at a 
minimum, a lifetime ban relative to the acquisition(s) triggering 
section 847. While the post-Government employment opinion or request 
stored in AGEAR is required based on participation in a $10-million 
acquisition, that specific acquisition may not be relevant to the DOD 
official's prospective employment with a DOD contractor. Because 
section 847 requires certain DOD officials to receive a written opinion 
before accepting compensation from any DOD contractor, there may be no 
actual nexus between the DOD official's participation in the 
acquisition that triggered the section 847 requirement and their 
prospective employment with a DOD contractor.

    11. Senator Warren. Ms. Krass, how many individuals has DOD advised 
in AGEAR that they have a lifetime ban on certain post-government 
activities?
    Ms. Krass. All DOD officials who have requested and received 
opinions in AGEAR will have, at a minimum, a lifetime ban on 
participation in the acquisition in excess of $10 million that 
triggered their requirement to request and receive a written post-
employment opinion in AGEAR.

    12. Senator Warren. Ms. Krass, what percentage of individuals who 
received ethics opinions included in AGEAR were advised they have a 
lifetime ban on certain post-government activities?
    Ms. Krass. One hundred percent. See response to question 11 above.

    13. Senator Warren. Ms. Krass, Ms. Ricci, Mr. Coffey, and Mr. 
Beshar, in the past 10 years how many times has your agency received 
reports of possible violations of post-government ethics restrictions?
    Ms. Krass, Ms. Ricci, Mr. Coffey, and Mr. Beshar. Allegations of 
ethics violations may be reported in a variety of ways, with the 
Inspectors General (IGs) and criminal investigative services typically 
receiving reports directly through mechanisms such as the DOD Hotline:
    https://www.dodig.mil/Components/Administrative-Investigations/DOD-
Hotline/Hotline-Complaint/
    Information concerning such complaints is maintained by the IGs and 
investigative services. In addition, ethics officials report 
information in their possession concerning disciplinary actions and 
certain referrals to DOJ as part of the Annual Agency Ethics Program 
Questionnaire that DOD submits to the Office of Government Ethics (OGE) 
each year. These Questionnaires are published on OGE's website.
    Since 2015, as part of the Annual Agency Ethics Program 
Questionnaire, OGE has asked ethics officials to separately report how 
many disciplinary actions were taken based wholly or in part on 
violations of post-Government employment restrictions governed by 18 
U.S.C. Sec.  207 and subpart F of 5 C.F.R. 2635. Since 2015, the 
respective Offices of the General Counsel of the DOD and the Military 
Departments reported approximately 15 instances of disciplinary actions 
that were based wholly or in part on violations of post-Government 
employment restrictions.

    14. Senator Warren. Ms. Krass, Ms. Ricci, Mr. Coffey, and Mr. 
Beshar, in the past 10 years how many times have reports of possible 
violations of post-government ethics restrictions been substantiated 
and what actions were taken as a consequence?
    Ms. Krass, Ms. Ricci, Mr. Coffey, and Mr. Beshar. Allegations of 
ethics violations may be reported in a variety of ways, with the 
Inspectors General (IGs) and criminal investigative services typically 
receiving reports directly through mechanisms such as the DOD Hotline:
    https://www.dodig.mil/Components/Administrative-Investigations/DOD-
Hotline/Hotline-Complaint/
    Information concerning such complaints is maintained by the IGs and 
investigative services, to include data relating to whether the 
allegations are substantiated or not. In addition, ethics officials 
report information in their possession concerning disciplinary actions 
and certain referrals to DOJ to the Office of Government Ethics each 
year as part of the Annual Agency Ethics Program Questionnaire. These 
Questionnaires are published on OGE's website.
    Since 2015, as part of the Annual Agency Ethics Program 
Questionnaire, OGE has asked ethics officials to separately report the 
number of referrals made to the DOJ of potential violations of criminal 
post-Government employment restrictions governed by 18 U.S.C. Sec.  
207, along with the number of referrals that DOJ accepted for 
prosecution. Since 2015, the respective Offices of the General Counsel 
of the DOD and the Military Departments reported fewer than 5 referrals 
of potential violations of criminal post-Government ethics restrictions 
to DOJ. Of those referrals, DOJ declined to accept any for prosecution.

    15. Senator Warren. Ms. Krass, Ms. Ricci, Mr. Coffey, and Mr. 
Beshar, in the past 10 years how many times has your agency received 
reports of possible violations of post-government lobbying and 
representational restrictions?
    Ms. Krass, Ms. Ricci, Mr. Coffey, and Mr. Beshar. Allegations of 
ethics violations may be reported in a variety of ways, with the 
Inspectors General (IGs) and criminal investigative services typically 
receiving reports directly through mechanisms such as the DOD Hotline:
    https://www.dodig.mil/Components/Administrative-Investigations/DOD-
Hotline/Hotline-Complaint/
    The respective Offices of the General Counsel of the DOD and the 
Military Departments are not aware of any complaints involving an 
allegation of a possible violation of post-Government lobbying and 
representational restrictions, as set forth in section 1045 of the NDAA 
for fiscal year 2018.

    16. Senator Warren. Ms. Krass, Ms. Ricci, Mr. Coffey, and Mr. 
Beshar, in the past 10 years how many times has your agency 
substantiated reports of possible violations of post-government 
lobbying and representational restrictions and what actions were taken 
as a consequence?
    Ms. Krass, Ms. Ricci, Mr. Coffey, and Mr. Beshar. Allegations of 
ethics violations may be reported in a variety of ways, with the 
Inspectors General (IGs) and criminal investigative services typically 
receiving reports directly through mechanisms such as the DOD Hotline:
    https://www.dodig.mil/Components/Administrative-Investigations/DOD-
Hotline/Hotline-Complaint/
    The respective Offices of the General Counsel of the DOD and the 
Military Departments are not aware of any complaints involving an 
allegation of a possible violation of post-government lobbying and 
representational restrictions, as set forth in section 1045 of the NDAA 
for fiscal year 2018.

    17. Senator Warren. Ms. Krass, Ms. Ricci, Mr. Coffey, and Mr. 
Beshar, in the past 10 years how many times have you referred DOD 
officials to the Department of Justice, Inspectors General, or U.S. 
attorneys for alleged violations of ethics laws?
    Ms. Krass, Ms. Ricci, Mr. Coffey, and Mr. Beshar. Allegations of 
ethics violations may be reported in a variety of ways, with the 
Inspectors General (IGs) and criminal investigative services typically 
receiving reports directly through mechanisms such as the DOD Hotline:
    https://www.dodig.mil/Components/Administrative-Investigations/DOD-
Hotline/Hotline-Complaint/
    Information concerning such complaints is maintained by the IGs and 
investigative services. In addition, ethics officials do report 
information in their possession concerning disciplinary actions and 
certain referrals to DOJ to the Office of Government Ethics each year 
as part of the Annual Agency Ethics Program Questionnaire. These 
Questionnaires are published on OGE's website.
    As part of the Annual Agency Ethics Program Questionnaire, ethics 
officials reported the number of referrals made to the DOJ of potential 
violations of the criminal conflicts of interest statutes (18 U.S.C. 
Sec. Sec.  203, 205, 207, 208 and 209). Based on a review of available 
records from the past 10 years, in total, the respective Offices of the 
General Counsel of the DOD and the Military Departments referred 
approximately 62 potential violations of the criminal conflicts of 
interest statutes to DOJ. Of those referrals, DOJ accepted 
approximately 16 for prosecution. DOJ declined to accept approximately 
42 for prosecution and 4 referrals were still pending as of the date of 
submission for the corresponding Annual Agency Ethics Program 
Questionnaire.

    18. Senator Warren. Ms. Ricci, Mr. Coffey, and Mr. Beshar, how many 
of the retired military personnel approved to work for foreign 
governments in the past 10 years were personally and substantially 
involved in decisions that would impact the country they were approved 
to work for?
    Ms. Ricci, Mr. Coffey, and Mr. Beshar. In determining whether to 
recommend Department of State approval of a request for foreign 
government employment, the Military Departments evaluate a number of 
criteria related to national security, regardless of whether a retired 
service member participated personally and substantially in a matter 
involving the foreign government. This information can include 
information about the duties performed in a foreign country.

    19. Senator Warren. Ms. Ricci, Mr. Coffey, and Mr. Beshar, how many 
of the retired military personnel approved to work for foreign 
governments in the past 10 years attended meetings with embassy 
officials or foreign agents employed on behalf of the country they were 
approved to work for?
    Ms. Ricci, Mr. Coffey, and Mr. Beshar. In determining whether to 
recommend Department of State approval of a request for foreign 
government employment, the Military Departments evaluate a number of 
criteria and other information related to national security. This 
information can include information about the duties performed in a 
foreign country. The Department of State is the final approval 
authority for foreign government employment of retired military 
personnel and does not require applicants to list meetings with embassy 
officials or foreign agents.

    20. Senator Warren. Ms. Ricci, Mr. Coffey, and Mr. Beshar, retired 
General Jim Mattis was the commander of Central Command and later 
received approval to work with the United Arab Emirates, a country that 
had been in his area of responsibility as commander. How many other 
military personnel your service approved to work for foreign 
governments were approved for work for foreign governments they 
deployed to or were in their area of responsibility during their 
Military Service?
    Ms. Ricci, Mr. Coffey, and Mr. Beshar. In determining whether to 
recommend Department of State approval of a request for foreign 
government employment, the Military Departments evaluate a number of 
criteria and other information related to national security. This 
information can include information about the duties performed in a 
foreign country. The Department of State is the final approval 
authority for foreign government employment of retired military 
personnel and does not require applicants to list prior deployments or 
areas of responsibility.

    21. Senator Warren. Ms. Ricci, Mr. Coffey, and Mr. Beshar, how many 
military personnel sought approval for work on behalf of foreign 
governments before they were officially retired?
    Ms. Ricci. Although Army regulations would allow a servicemember to 
submit a request for approval before their retirement date to begin 
foreign government employment after their retirement, I am not aware of 
any such requests.
    Mr. Coffey. None. The Department of the Navy (DON) does not process 
foreign government employment authorization requests until the 
servicemember is no longer on Active Duty.
    Mr. Beshar. None. The Air Force Personnel Center does not allow 
members to apply prior to retirement. They must follow the guidance in 
Air Force Instruction 36-2913, which states that those on Active Duty 
are ineligible to apply for approval or accept employment with a 
foreign government or entity.

    22. Senator Warren. Ms. Ricci, Mr. Coffey, and Mr. Beshar, 
personnel who had or continue to have access to classified information 
are more likely to intentionally or unintentionally share our most 
sensitive national security information with foreign governments if 
they are on their payroll. What oversight processes are in place to 
make sure this employment doesn't compromise classified information?
    Ms. Ricci. Consistent with the requirements of DODM 5200.02, 
Procedures for the DOD Personnel Security Program, the Department of 
the Army has established procedures to ensure that, upon termination of 
employment with the Federal Government, servicemembers have their 
access to classified information terminated, receive a security 
debriefing, and complete a security termination statement as required. 
Retirees requesting approval of foreign government employment are 
required to complete a written questionnaire, which includes questions 
relating to the applicant's access to classified information during 
their Military Service. As part of the application to approve foreign 
government employment, all applicants are required to complete 
internet-based TARP (Threat Awareness and Reporting Program) training 
and submit a certificate of completion before the application can be 
processed. All applicants are required to sign the Classified 
Information Nondisclosure Agreement (Standard Form 312), certifying 
knowledge of their commitment to safeguard classified information and 
acknowledging that any unauthorized disclosure of classified 
information may constitute a violation, or violations, of United States 
criminal laws.
    Mr. Coffey. Consistent with the requirements of DODM 5200.02, 
Procedures for the DOD Personnel Security Program, the Department of 
the Navy has established procedures to ensure that, upon termination of 
employment with the Federal Government, servicemembers have their 
access to classified information terminated, receive a security 
debriefing, and complete a security termination statement as required. 
Retirees requesting approval of foreign government employment are 
required to complete a written questionnaire, which includes questions 
relating to the applicant's access to classified information during 
their Military Service. All applicants are required to sign the 
Classified Information Nondisclosure Agreement (Standard Form 312), 
certifying knowledge of their commitment to safeguard classified 
information and acknowledging that any unauthorized disclosure of 
classified information may constitute a violation, or violations, of 
United States criminal laws.
    Mr. Beshar. Consistent with the requirements of DODM 5200.02, 
Procedures for the DOD Personnel Security Program, the Department of 
the Air Force has established procedures to ensure that, upon 
termination of employment with the Federal Government, servicemembers 
have their access to classified information terminated, receive a 
security debriefing, and complete a security termination statement as 
required. Retirees requesting approval of foreign government employment 
are required to complete a written questionnaire, which includes 
questions relating to the applicant's access to classified information 
during their Military Service. All applicants are required to sign the 
Classified Nondisclosure Agreement (Standard Form 312), certifying 
knowledge of their commitment to safeguard classified information and 
acknowledging that any unauthorized disclosure of classified 
information by them may constitute a violation, or violations, of 
United States criminal laws.

    23. Senator Warren. Ms. Ricci, Mr. Coffey, and Mr. Beshar, how many 
times have the services received allegations that retired military 
personnel who work for foreign governments improperly shared classified 
information over the past 10 years?
    Ms. Ricci. Records relating to reports of allegations of improper 
sharing of classified info have a 6-year record retention period. Since 
2016, my office received one allegation about an Army officer who 
intended to work for a foreign government in a manner that likely would 
have involved classified information, however, the Army in conjunction 
with the FBI, prevented this individual from entering into this 
employment. The officer had not submitted an application for foreign 
government employment.
    Mr. Coffey. The DON is not aware of any allegations regarding the 
improper sharing of classified information by personnel employed by a 
foreign government.
    Mr. Beshar. The Department of the Air Force (DAF) is not aware of 
any allegations regarding the improper sharing of classified 
information by personnel employed by a foreign government.

    24. Senator Warren. Ms. Ricci, Mr. Coffey, and Mr. Beshar, how many 
retired military personnel the services approved to work for foreign 
governments had active security clearances at the time they were 
approved?
    Ms. Ricci, Mr. Coffey, and Mr. Beshar. While this information is 
not separately tracked or readily available, each of the Military 
Departments requires retired servicemembers applying for approval of 
foreign government employment to provide information about the security 
clearance the applicant held while in military service. Most personnel 
leaving military service lose their security clearance upon retirement, 
although DOD 5200.02M provides a process by which retired personnel may 
be granted a security clearance. Retirees requesting foreign government 
employment authorization are required to complete Standard Form 312, 
certifying knowledge of their commitment to safeguard classified 
information and acknowledging that any unauthorized disclosure of 
classified information by them may constitute a violation, or 
violations, of United States criminal laws.

    25. Senator Warren. Ms. Ricci, Mr. Coffey, and Mr. Beshar, is there 
any kind of work your services would categorically deny if retired 
military personnel requested to perform that work on behalf of a 
foreign government?
    Ms. Ricci, Mr. Coffey, and Mr. Beshar. In determining whether to 
recommend Department of State approval of a request for foreign 
government employment, the Military Departments evaluate a number of 
criteria and other information related to national security. Every 
application is evaluated on the unique facts and circumstances 
presented in the application. The Under Secretary of Defense for 
Personnel and Readiness has asked the Military Departments to assess 
for sufficiency the information and criteria applied in reviewing 
applications for approval of foreign government employment. The 
Department of Defense looks forward to briefing the Committee on the 
results of this assessment.

    26. Senator Warren. Ms. Ricci, Mr. Coffey, and Mr. Beshar, are 
there any countries your services would categorically reject retired 
military personnel working on behalf of?
    Ms. Ricci, Mr. Coffey, and Mr. Beshar. In determining whether to 
recommend Department of State approval of a request for foreign 
government employment, the Military Departments evaluate a number of 
criteria and other information related to national security. Every 
application is evaluated on the unique facts and circumstances 
presented in the application. All applications receive a security and 
intelligence review. The Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and 
Readiness has asked the Military Departments to assess for sufficiency 
the information and criteria applied in reviewing applications for 
approval of foreign government employment. The Department of Defense 
looks forward to briefing the Committee on the results of this 
assessment.

    27. Senator Warren. Ms. Ricci, Mr. Coffey, and Mr. Beshar, what is 
your service's check list for reviewing, approving, and denying foreign 
government employment?
    Ms. Ricci. See Table 2-1 in AR 600-291, ``Foreign Government 
Employment,'' which describes the Army FGE application process:
    https://armypubs.army.mil/epubs/DR_pubs/DR_a/ARN30208-AR8_600-291-
000-WEB-1.pdf.
    The Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness has 
asked the Military Departments to review the information and criteria 
applied in reviewing applications for approval of foreign government 
employment. The Department of Defense looks forward to briefing the 
Committee on the results of this assessment.
    Mr. Coffey. The DON does not have a check list, but rather has a 
process for reviewing foreign government employment requests. DON 
military retirees seek Service approval for foreign government 
employment by submitting applications to the delegated approving 
official within each Service. Applications include detailed questions 
concerning the nature of the proposed employment and a refreshed 
acknowledgement of non-disclosure obligations. Upon receipt of an 
application, each Service (i.e., Navy, Marine Corps) conducts detailed 
reviews, to include reviewing retiree records for adverse or reportable 
information and/or a review conducted by Naval Criminal Investigative 
Service (NCIS), and a review of the proposed employment by security and 
counterintelligence experts. The delegated approving official then 
weighs: (1) whether the foreign government employment will adversely 
affect the foreign relations of the United States; (2) whether the 
foreign government employment will enable a foreign government to exert 
an undue influence upon the United States; (3) whether the foreign 
government employment will jeopardize the security of the United 
States; and (4) whether the foreign government employment will violate 
any laws of the United States. Foreign government employment that would 
be inimical to the national interest is not approved. Requests approved 
by the Service are forwarded to the Department of State for final 
review and approval. The Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and 
Readiness has asked the Military Departments to review the information 
and criteria applied in reviewing applications for approval of foreign 
government employment. The Department of Defense looks forward to 
briefing the Committee on the results of this assessment.
    Mr. Beshar. The factors considered by the DAF are listed in 
paragraph 3.5 of Air Force Instruction 36-2913:
    https://www.retirees.af.mil/Portals/53/documents/FGE/
AFIpercent2036-2913. pdf'ver=2016-08-17-112414-970).
    The Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness has 
asked the Military Departments to review the information and criteria 
applied in reviewing applications for approval of foreign government 
employment. The Department of Defense looks forward to briefing the 
Committee on the results of this assessment.

    28. Senator Warren. Ms. Ricci, Mr. Coffey, and Mr. Beshar, when was 
the last time this process was updated and are there regular reviews of 
the process? How often do those reviews occur if so?
    Ms. Ricci. AR 600-291 was last updated in September 2020. The Army 
is currently in the process of revising this AR. The Under Secretary of 
Defense for Personnel and Readiness has asked the Military Departments 
to review the information and criteria applied in reviewing 
applications for approval of foreign government employment. The 
Department of Defense looks forward to briefing the Committee on the 
results of this assessment.
    Mr. Coffey. The Secretary of the Navy delegated FGE approval 
authority to the Chief of Naval Personnel and Commandant of the Marine 
Corps. These officers regularly review their internal processes and 
procedures (including questionnaires) and, as needed, update the 
process and procedures to account for new challenges, employment 
trends, and efforts to better elucidate information relevant to 
decisionmaking. The Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and 
Readiness has asked the Military Departments to review the information 
and criteria applied in reviewing applications for approval of foreign 
government employment. The Department of Defense looks forward to 
briefing the Committee on the results of this assessment.
    Mr. Beshar. The Department of the Air Force substantially revised 
its AFI governing FGE in July 2020. AFI 36-2913 is currently undergoing 
review and update. The Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and 
Readiness has asked the Military Departments to review the information 
and criteria applied in reviewing applications for approval of foreign 
government employment. The Department of Defense looks forward to 
briefing the Committee on the results of this assessment.

    29. Senator Warren. Ms. Ricci, Mr. Coffey, and Mr. Beshar, will you 
share with this Committee the results of your service's review that was 
directed by the Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness 
within 100 days?
    Ms. Ricci, Mr. Coffey, Mr. Beshar. The Department of Defense looks 
forward to briefing the Committee on the results of the assessment 
directed by the Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness.
                               __________
             Questions Submitted by Senator Mazie K. Hirono
                        red hill accountability
    30. Senator Hirono. Mr. Coffey, critical to public integrity and 
anti-corruption is confidence that the appropriate action will be taken 
when misdeeds or inappropriate behavior are identified. Any perceptions 
of lack of accountability for our leaders calls into question the 
foundations of the entire system, and rightly so. We're seeing this 
play out in real time following the Red Hill water contamination 
crisis. To date, the Navy has not publicly held anyone accountable for 
a disaster that impacted almost 100,000 people. Mr. Coffey, can you 
please tell me why the people of Hawaii are still awaiting 
accountability for a crisis that occurred over 18 months ago?
    Mr. Coffey. The Navy takes accountability seriously and understands 
that the citizens of Hawaii deserve to know what actions the Navy takes 
in regard to the spills that have occurred at the Red Hill Bulk Storage 
Facility. A consolidated disposition authority (CDA) was assigned to 
review and take any required administrative or disciplinary actions 
against U.S. Navy servicemembers associated with the original fuel 
spills from May and November 2021. While those decisions were being 
reviewed and finalized, a subsequent Aqueous Film Forming Foam (AFFF) 
spill occurred in March 2023. The CDA was tasked in May 2023 to review 
this additional AFFF spill investigation together with the 2021 fuel 
spills investigations to ensure that all appropriate actions are taken. 
Once these reviews and actions are finalized, the Navy will ensure that 
the public is made aware of the accountability actions taken by the 
Navy.

    31. Senator Hirono. Ms. Krass, accountability is critical to the 
public's faith in our military. As such, how does the Department ensure 
individuals responsible for misdeeds are held accountable?
    Ms. Krass. The Secretary is committed to rebuilding trust with the 
people of Hawaii, our service members, civilians, and their families. 
Accountability is an important part of that rebuilding process, and the 
Navy is conducting accountability reviews for both Navy personnel and 
Navy contractors at Red Hill. The Department is confident that the 
Navy, upon completion of its processes, will take appropriate measures 
to ensure accountability for the spills at Red Hill.
              career development for acquisition officials
    32. Senator Hirono. Ms. Krass, there is a pronounced need for both 
the Pentagon and the defense industrial base to move faster as the 
country competes with its pacing threat. Though necessary to ensure 
ethical guard rails and avoid conflicts of interest, it is in the best 
interest of the country to have decisionmakers that understand both 
industry and the DOD. Ms. Krass, how can the Department of Defense 
better support career development, which may include industry 
exchanges, while preserving public trust in the system?
    Ms. Krass. The Department is committed to upholding the ethics laws 
by avoiding circumstances that would create an appearance of 
preferential treatment or conflicts of interest. There is widespread 
recognition that both the Government and industry benefit from 
exchanges of personnel, as evidenced by laws such as 10 U.S.C. 
Sec. 1599g that facilitate personnel exchanges with the private sector. 
Executive Branch ethics laws and regulations appropriately balance the 
need to preserve the public trust with the Government's interest in 
participating in such exchanges. DOD personnel participating in 
industry exchanges remain subject to Federal ethics laws and 
regulations during their detail to industry, just as industry personnel 
who are detailed to the DOD are subject to Federal ethics laws and 
regulations during their detail. Even after leaving DOD, former DOD 
personnel and industry personnel who have been detailed to DOD are 
subject to, at a minimum, a ban on representing a non-Federal entity 
back to DOD on a particular matter in which they participated in 
personally and substantially. Additionally, exchange participants are 
typically required to file financial disclosure reports, which are 
reviewed by their DOD supervisors prior to certification by ethics 
officials, to assist in identifying and preventing any conflicts of 
interest with their outside financial interests, to include continued 
employment and participation in employer benefits.
                  consultants for foreign governments
    33. Senator Hirono. Ms. Krass, I have supported changes to the 
Federal Acquisition Regulations to specifically create a prohibition on 
people who provide consulting services to the DOD from entering 
contracts with entities who are simultaneously providing consulting 
services to the governments of our adversaries, including China, 
Russia, and Iran, North Korea and others. Existing conflict of interest 
provisions do not account for this specific type of conflict of 
interest. Would the Department of Defense support this change to the 
Federal Acquisition Regulations?
    Ms. Krass. As indicated in the question, the current Federal 
Acquisition Regulations (FAR) do not address potential conflicts of 
this sort. The Department would give serious consideration to such a 
proposal.

    34. Senator Hirono. Ms. Krass, Is it important for there to be a 
waiver process in certain instances?
    Ms. Krass. Waivers may be necessary and appropriate in certain 
circumstances, such as to permit continued contracting for certain 
national security requirements and to avoid unwelcome second and third 
order effects or unintended consequences. Any modification to the FAR 
should provide for waiver authority on a case-by-case basis that the 
Department may exercise at a senior level of approval.
                               __________
              Questions Submitted by Senator Roger Wicker
                    conflict of interest allegations
    35. Senator Wicker. Ms. Krass, Ms. Ricci, Mr. Coffey, and Mr. 
Beshar, during the hearing, there were questions concerning how the 
Department addressed conflict of interest allegations against Ms. Stacy 
Cummings relative to the JEDI cloud procurement. Can you clarify DOD's 
processes for identifying and preventing conflicts of interest and what 
actions, if any, DOD took with regard to the allegations against Ms. 
Cummings?
    Ms. Krass, Ms. Ricci, Mr. Coffey, and Mr. Beshar. Ms. Cummings was 
an acquisition policy official (Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense 
(DASD) for Acquisition Enablers from 2019 to 2021 and was the acting 
Principal DASD for Acquisition in September 2019) who was asked to sit 
in on discussions considering a potential change to the JEDI 
acquisition strategy. Ms. Cummings had not previously been involved in 
the acquisition. Acquisition counsel advising on the JEDI procurement 
requested to view financial disclosure reports for officials 
participating in these discussions and identified Ms. Cummings' 
potential conflict of interest. Once it was brought to her attention, 
Ms. Cummings promptly recused herself from any further meetings 
relating to the acquisition and divested the stock that created the 
conflict of interest. In accordance with DOD policy, the DOD Standards 
of Conduct Office (SOCO) made the required referral to the DOD 
Inspector General (IG). The DOD IG found that while a technical 
conflict of interest violation occurred, it was identified early and 
Ms. Cummings was not able to impact the outcome of the procurement. The 
DOD IG referred the case to the Department of Justice, which declined 
to prosecute. The IG recommended that Ms. Cummings receive additional 
counseling and training, which was conducted.
               post-employment rules for senior employees
    36. Senator Wicker. Ms. Krass, Ms. Ricci, Mr. Coffey, and Mr. 
Beshar, testimony provided at the hearing appeared to indicate that 
senior government employees may be subject to less restrictive post-
government employment restrictions than non-senior employees. If 
accurate, this concerns me. Can you explain what post-employment rules 
apply to senior employees and how they are different from the rules 
that apply to non-senior employees?
    Ms. Krass, Ms. Ricci, Mr. Coffey, and Mr. Beshar. All former senior 
Executive Branch personnel are subject to greater restrictions than 
former non-senior personnel. Former senior DOD personnel are also 
subject to greater restrictions beyond those that apply to former 
senior personnel who served in other Executive Branch agencies.
    All former Executive Branch personnel are subject to ethics 
restrictions that aim to prevent improper influence after leaving 
Government service. These laws seek to both preserve public trust and 
allow former Executive Branch personnel to appropriately use their 
professional experience after leaving Government service.
    All former Executive Branch personnel, to include former senior 
personnel, are subject to criminal bans under 18 U.S.C. Sec. Sec.  
207(a)(1) and (a)(2) that prohibit them from representing their new 
employer (or any non-Federal entity (NFE)) back to the Executive or 
Judicial branches:
    1) Permanently on matters in which they participated while in 
Government; and
    2) For 2 years on matters that were pending under their former 
official responsibility.
    All former Executive Branch personnel are also subject to the 
Procurement Integrity Act, 41 U.S.C. Sec.  2104, which prohibits 
personnel from accepting compensation from a prime contractor for 1 
year if they served in certain acquisition roles or personally made 
certain decisions on acquisitions valued over $10 million, as defined 
in the Act.
    Additional laws apply to former senior Executive Branch officials. 
In addition to the post-Government restrictions that apply to all 
former Executive Branch personnel, several more restrictive criminal 
bans under 18 U.S.C. Sec. Sec.  207(c)-(f) apply exclusively to all 
Executive Branch former senior personnel:
    1) For 1 year after leaving a senior position, all former senior 
personal are prohibited from representing a non-Federal employer to 
their former agency on any official matter;
    2) For 1 year after leaving a senior position, all former senior 
personal are prohibited from aiding, advising, or representing a 
foreign government or foreign political party, with the intent to 
influence any officer or employee of any Federal department, agency, or 
Member of Congress; and
    3) For 2 years after leaving a very senior position, former very 
senior personnel are prohibited from representing a new employer to 
their former agency on any official matter.
    Finally, former senior DOD officials are subject to the additional 
restrictions in Section 1045 of the NDAA for fiscal year 2018, which 
can apply for up to 2 years. Section 1045 prohibits such officials from 
participating in certain communications back to individuals holding 
specific positions throughout the Executive Branch. Rather than the 
bright line representational bans under 18 U.S.C. Sec.  207, the 
applicability of Section 1045 restrictions depends upon the subject and 
nature of the proposed communication; the appointment status of the 
person to whom the contact is directed; and the agency within which the 
intended recipient works.
                               __________
              Questions Submitted by Senator Dan Sullivan
                         dod ethics requirement
    37. Senator Sullivan. Ms. Krass, in your joint testimony, you 
reviewed the extensive number of laws and regulations that govern the 
conduct of current and former Department of Defense employees. You also 
noted the small amount of former DOD senior officials and acquisition 
officials who work for the 14 largest defense contractors: between 2014 
and 2019, 1.5 million people left DOD employment and only 1,700 or 0.1 
percent of those were former senior or acquisition officials who went 
to work at one of the 14 largest defense contractors. You expressed 
concern with DOD-specific ethics requirements that do not apply across 
the Executive Branch. That said, you noted that the DOD was complying 
with the Fiscal Year 2023 NDAA's requirement to have a federally Funded 
Research and Development Center conduct a study of whether DOD-specific 
ethics laws would harm DOD's ability to share knowledge between 
Government and industry, if that would be consistent with existing laws 
applicable to all Executive Branch employees, if it would create 
confusion, and if it would impact recruiting and retention. In your 
opinion, do the existing laws and regulations applicable to current and 
former Department of Defense officials adequately balance the need to 
access top talent while also protecting against improper influence?
    Ms. Krass. I look forward to sharing the results of the independent 
review required by the NDAA for fiscal year 2023 with the Committee. I 
believe it is important to assess the potential impact of ethics 
restrictions that apply only to current and former DOD personnel, and 
not to all Executive Branch employees. DOD supports ethics laws that 
are clearly written, consistent with the larger body of Federal ethics 
law, and correctly balance the interests of the Department and our 
personnel.
    The longstanding, well-established, Executive Branch wide ethics 
laws and regulations take a balanced approach to effectively mitigate 
perceived conflicts of interest while allowing for circumstances that 
present little risk of potentially inappropriate influence. These laws 
strike an appropriate balance between preserving public trust and 
allowing former government personnel to apply their education and 
professional experience to earn a living after leaving government 
service. Clear, consistent, and balanced ethics laws are essential to 
ensuring compliance and maintaining the public's trust, while fostering 
recruitment and retention of high-quality personnel.
    The Executive Branch-wide laws and regulations also create clear 
restrictions that are easy to understand and follow, to include:
    1) A permanent ban on participating in any particular matter that 
would have a direct and predictable effect on the employee's actual or 
imputed financial interests.
    2) A 1-year cooling-off period before any new Federal employee can 
work on any matters affecting a former employer or client.
    3) A permanent ban that prohibits all former Executive Branch 
personnel from representing their employer (or any other Non-Federal 
Entity (NFE)) back to the Executive or Judicial branches in matters on 
which they participated while working for the Government.
    4) A 2-year ban that prohibits all former Executive Branch 
personnel from representing their employer (or any other NFE) back to 
the Executive or Judicial branches in matters that were pending under 
their responsibility during their last year working for the Government.
    5) A 1-year ban that prohibits all former senior Executive Branch 
personnel from representing their employer (or any other NFE) back to 
their former agency.
    In 2021, GAO found that only a very small percentage of former 
senior DOD personnel (0.1 percent) actually work for the largest 
defense contractors after leaving Federal service.\1\ Additionally, GAO 
determined that:
    1) DOD and industry have effective programs to detect and prevent 
violations of post-government employment laws;
    2) DOD has improved practices to help ensure compliance with post-
government employment restrictions; and
    3) Industry's practices promote awareness of and compliance with 
ethics laws.

------------
    \1\ U.S. GOV'T ACCOUNTABILITY OFF., GAO-21-104311, Post-Government 
Employment Restrictions: DOD Could Further Enhance Its Compliance 
Efforts Related to Former Employees Working for Defense Contractors 
(2021).

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