[Senate Hearing 118-607]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]








                                                        S. Hrg. 118-607
 
   UNLOCKING DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION FINANCING FOR MORE TRANSIT	
                      ORIENTED HOUSING DEVELOPMENT

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                                before a

                          SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE

            COMMITTEE ON APPROPRIATIONS UNITED STATES SENATE

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                             SECOND SESSION

                               __________

                            SPECIAL HEARING

                     June 18, 2024--WASHINGTON, DC

                               __________

         Printed for the use of the Committee on Appropriations
         
         
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       Available via the World Wide Web: https://www.govinfo.gov
       
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                U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE 
 59-868                WASHINGTON : 2025
    

                       
                      COMMITTEE ON APPROPRIATIONS

                   PATTY MURRAY, Washington, Chairman
RICHARD J. DURBIN, Illinois          SUSAN M. COLLINS, Maine, Vice 
JACK REED, Rhode Island                  Chairman
JON TESTER, Montana                  MITCH McCONNELL, Kentucky
JEANNE SHAHEEN, New Hampshire        LISA MURKOWSKI, Alaska
JEFF MERKLEY, Oregon                 LINDSEY GRAHAM, South Carolina
CHRISTOPHER A. COONS, Delaware       JERRY MORAN, Kansas
BRIAN SCHATZ, Hawaii                 JOHN HOEVEN, North Dakota
TAMMY BALDWIN, Wisconsin             JOHN BOOZMAN, Arkansas
CHRISTOPHER MURPHY, Connecticut      SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO, West 
JOE MANCHIN, West Virginia               Virginia
CHRIS VAN HOLLEN, Maryland           JOHN KENNEDY, Louisiana
MARTIN HEINRICH, New Mexico          CINDY HYDE-SMITH, Mississippi
GARY PETERS, Michigan                BILL HAGERTY, Tennessee
KYRSTEN SINEMA, Arizona              KATIE BRITT, Alabama
                                     MARCO RUBIO, Florida
                                     DEB FISCHER, Nebraska

                      Evan Schatz, Staff Director
              Elizabeth McDonnell, Minority Staff Director
                                 ------                                

  Subcommittee on Transportation, Housing and Urban Development, and 
                            Related Agencies

                     BRIAN SCHATZ, Hawaii, Chairman
PATTY MURRAY, Washington (ex         CINDY HYDE-SMITH, Mississippi, 
    officio)                             Ranking
RICHARD J. DURBIN, Illinois          SUSAN M. COLLINS, Maine (ex 
JACK REED, Rhode Island                  officio)
CHRISTOPHER A. COONS, Delaware       JOHN BOOZMAN, Arkansas
CHRISTOPHER MURPHY, Connecticut      SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO, West 
JOE MANCHIN, West Virginia               Virginia
CHRIS VAN HOLLEN, Maryland           LINDSEY GRAHAM, South Carolina
KYRSTEN SINEMA, Arizona              JOHN HOEVEN, North Dakota
                                     JOHN KENNEDY, Louisiana
                                     JERRY MORAN, Kansas

                           Professional Staff

                              Dabney Hegg
                             Kelsey Daniels
                              Rajat Mathur
                              Jessica Sun

                       Michael Clarke (Minority)
                       Cameron O'Brien (Minority)
                       Jason Woolwine (Minority)

                         Administrative Support

                          Amanda Kronenberger

                            C O N T E N T S

                              ----------                              
                                                                   Page

                      DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION

                              ----------                              

Statement of Dr. Morteza Farajian, Executive Director, Build 
  America Bureau.................................................
  1..............................................................

Opening Statement of Senator Brian Schatz........................
  1..............................................................

Statement of Senator Cindy Hyde-Smith............................
  2..............................................................

Summary Statement of Dr. Morteza Farajian........................
  3..............................................................

    Prepared Statement of Dr. Morteza Farajian, Ph.D.............
      5..........................................................

Statement of Dr. Tracy Hadden LOH, Fellow, Brookings Institute...
  7..............................................................

    Prepared Statement of Dr. Tracy Hadden Loh...................
      9..........................................................

Statement of Mr. Adhi Nagraj, Chief Development Officer, 
  Mccormack Baron Salazar........................................
  12.............................................................

    Prepared Statement of Mr. Adhi Nagraj........................
      14.........................................................

        Ratings of Partnership...................................
          15.....................................................

        Timing...................................................
          15.....................................................

        Intercreditor Agreements.................................
          15.....................................................

        Year 15--Resyndications..................................
          16.....................................................


   UNLOCKING DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION FINANCING FOR MORE TRANSIT-
                      ORIENTED HOUSING DEVELOPMENT

                              ----------                              


                         TUESDAY, JUNE 18, 2024

                                       U.S. Senate,
           Subcommittee of the Committee on Appropriations,
                                                    Washington, DC.
    The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:02 a.m. in 
Room SD-138, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Brian Schatz 
(chairman) presiding.
    Present: Senators Schatz, Reed, Van Hollen, and Hyde-Smith.

                      DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION

STATEMENT OF DR. MORTEZA FARAJIAN, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, 
            BUILD AMERICA BUREAU


               opening statement of senator brian schatz


    Senator Schatz. Good morning. This hearing will come to 
order. And I want to thank our witnesses for being here today.
    On our panel, we have Dr. Morteza Farajian, Executive 
Director of the Build America Bureau of the Department of 
Transportation; Dr. Tracy Hadden Loh, a Fellow at the Brookings 
Institution; and Mr. Adhi Nagraj, Chief Development Officer at 
McCormack Baron Salazar.
    Each of our witnesses bring incredible expertise in their 
respective fields, and we are eager to hear your thoughts on 
how Congress can improve access to financing for transit-
oriented development. Funding TOD is a no-brainer. When we 
invest in neighborhoods around public transit, we create jobs, 
cut traffic, and protect the environment.
    And it is even more relevant today as the country grapples 
with a national housing shortage, and a post-pandemic reality 
of empty office buildings. Estimates put the national housing 
shortage somewhere between five- and seven million units. That 
leaves nearly 42 million American households cost-burdened, 
meaning they are spending more than 30 percent of their income 
on housing. And in the state of Hawaii, 30 percent sounds 
pretty good to most.
    Skyrocketing housing costs are driving more and more people 
into poverty and homelessness. A lot of the problem comes down 
to the simple and stubborn reality that we don't build enough 
housing in this country.
    Now, a lot of work to fix that has to start with policy 
reforms at the state and local level, but what the Federal 
Government can and should do is incentivize national action and 
expand access to financing opportunities for development.
    We need to make it easier to build in any way that we can. 
Providing low-interest capital through Transportation 
Infrastructure Finance and Innovation Act (TIFIA) and Railroad 
Rehabilitation & Improvement Financing (RRIF) is one means, but 
for it to work and spur the kind of development that we had 
planned for, it needs to be easier to use.
    In 2015, the FAST Act expanded the TIFIA Program to include 
housing projects near transit hubs. This direction from 
Congress was stalled by the previous administration, who 
neglected to address our housing crisis. But more recently, 
following guidance under the Biden administration, we are 
seeing real enthusiasm for it in states across the country. 
Project proposals are popping up in red states and blue states 
alike: Illinois, Florida, Utah, Texas, North Carolina. And the 
list goes on.
    But we have also heard from local governments and 
developers that the credit rating requirements, fees, and 
lengthy review processes hinder them from accessing these funds 
for housing. And we have heard from DOT that limited funding 
for administration and oversight is preventing the program from 
reaching its full potential.
    These challenges need to be addressed by Congress. We need 
to simplify and streamline the credit review process, and we 
need to get DOT the resources it needs to make the programs as 
successful as they can be. The information we gather here today 
will help us to do that, and we look forward to hearing your 
perspectives and ideas, on how we can strengthen the program, 
and help to unlock its benefits for communities nationwide.
    And with that, I will turn it over to the Vice Chair, 
Senator Hyde-Smith, for her opening statement.


                 statement of senator cindy hyde-smith


    Senator Hyde-Smith. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And welcome. 
Thank you all for being here at this important hearing that we 
are having today.
    While many of the issues that we address in the T-HUD bill 
falls squarely within either the transportation or the housing 
spaces, the topic today clearly cuts across both. It is pretty 
interesting, and TOD is a concept that seeks to blend 
transportation and housing efforts through mixed-use 
development around access to frequent and reliable public 
transit. These types of projects may not be feasible for remote 
rural communities in Mississippi, like where I live, and across 
the country, but they certainly have promise and beneficial 
factors for populated urban areas.
    For example, Jackson, Mississippi, recently received a $1 
million grant from the Federal Transit Administration for TOD 
planning. This grant will support the One Line Project, which 
aims to create new multimodal infrastructure and a bus rapid 
transit system along a 5-Mile Corridor in our capital city. 
This corridor has the highest concentration of employers and 
educational institutions in the entire state, including Jackson 
State University, and the University of Mississippi Medical 
Center, and numerous city, county, and state government 
offices. And despite this density, however, only 1 percent of 
the residents living in that area use public transportation to 
commute to work, and only 2 percent walk to work, 90 percent 
commute to work using their personal vehicles. And we know what 
that does.
    The City of Jackson will use the Federal TOD funds to 
reverse this trend, by improving accessibility and facilitating 
mixed-use development. In addition to the FTA programs, 
Congress has also supported TOD by authorizing the use of TIFIA 
funds for commercial and residential development and related 
infrastructure within a half mile of a transit facility.
    Since Congress provided this new authority, however, only 
one TIFIA loan has been awarded to a transit-oriented 
development (TOD) project, which notably did not include any 
residential components. So I hope today's discussion will shed 
light on what is preventing more of these projects from moving 
forward. I am concerned that what we are seeing is another case 
of the Government being unable to get out of its own way.
    Layers upon layers of Federal regulations and requirements 
discourage local leaders and private investors from pursuing 
the TOD projects that have the potential to transform so many 
communities. But I do look forward to hearing what Congress can 
do to improve the process while ensuring that housing is a 
focus of federally funded TOD projects.
    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Senator Schatz. Thank you, Vice Chair. Are there any 
members wishing to make an opening statement? If not, we will 
start with our witnesses. And you each have five minutes for 
your testimony, and then we will get into our back and forth.
    Dr. Farajian, please proceed with your testimony.


               summary statement of dr. morteza farajian


    Dr. Farajian. Thank you, Chair Schatz, Ranking Member Hyde-
Smith, and Members of the Subcommittee, for the opportunity to 
discuss the Build America Bureau's Transit-Oriented Development 
Financing. In my testimony today, I will highlight the Bureau's 
TOD authority, activities, and remaining challenges.
    First, I will summarize what we do. The Build America 
Bureau advances and invests in America's infrastructure by 
lending Federal funds at below-market rates on favorable terms 
to qualified borrowers while protecting taxpayers, clearing 
roadblocks for creditworthy projects, and encouraging the use 
of best practices in project planning, financing, and delivery.
    The Bureau has 115 TIFIA and RRIF loans and loan tranches 
to 71 distinct borrowers from 23 states, and the District of 
Columbia, that are in construction or operations, totaling just 
over $31 billion in credit extended. The Bureau also 
administers four grant programs to expand the public sector's 
capacity to finance and deliver infrastructure. The Regional 
Infrastructure Accelerator Program helps public entities 
develop priorities and financing strategies to accelerate 
projects eligible for TIFIA credit assistance.
    The Thriving Communities Program provides technical 
assistance, planning, and capacity-building support to smaller 
and under-resourced communities through capacity builders-- 
technical assistance providers that support groups of 
communities based on their common needs. The Bipartisan 
Infrastructure Law established the Rural and Tribal Assistance 
Pilot Program, which provides grants for preconstruction and 
predevelopment studies for rural and tribal communities, and 
the Innovative Finance and Asset Concession Program, which 
provides grants to public entities to facilitate and evaluate 
public-private partnerships.
    We also offer customized direct technical assistance for 
projects of all sizes and project sponsors with different 
experience levels.
    Finally, the Bureau administers allocation of private 
activity bonds for qualified highway or surface freight 
transfer facilities.
    The FAST Act authorized the Bureau to finance TOD projects. 
TOD projects include public infrastructure and economic 
development projects, including affordable housing, workforce 
housing, and commercial development physically or functionally 
related to transit, passenger rail, or multimodal stations. TOD 
projects can transform underperforming and underutilized 
assets, increase transit and passenger rail ridership and 
revenue, facilitate office-to-residential conversion, and 
support affordable, equitable multimodal access to 
opportunities and services. I am proud to say that in April 
2024, the Bureau closed USDOT's first TOD loan of up to $26.8 
million for the Mount Vernon Library Commons project, now under 
construction in Washington State. Our financing will save that 
community at least $3 million compared to other financing 
options.
    Implementing the TOD authorities Congress gave us has been 
incremental and steady. We published TOD guidance and a policy 
statement on our website. We held five webinars in the past 
year for more than 500 participants. We also participated in 
webinars with the White House and with the U.S. Department of 
Housing and Urban Development, and presentations at the U.S. 
Housing and Community Development Conference, the National 
Housing and Rehabilitation Association, and the Urban Land 
Institute.
    We hosted in-person technical workshops in Austin, Kansas 
City, Los Angeles, Chicago, and Jacksonville. To make our 
financing more accessible and attractive, USDOT announced it 
would provide transit and TOD projects TIFIA financing for up 
to 49 percent of total project costs, the TIFIA statutory limit 
since 2012. USDOT typically limits TIFIA loans to 33 percent of 
project costs by policy.
    Even with this progress, prospective borrowers have told us 
they are encountering challenges in utilizing TIFIA or RRIF for 
TOD projects, the most significant of which are the following. 
TIFIA's legislation requires an investment-grade rating. While 
this level of rating protects taxpayers from defaults, it can 
be unattainable for certain TOD projects. Typically, rating 
agencies do not rate real estate deals that have both 
construction and long-term financing elements, as this is not 
common practice in the market. The Bureau has consulted with 
rating agencies, several of whom are now developing rating 
approaches for TOD projects.
    Second, a range of Federal requirements apply to TIFIA and 
RRIF borrowers, including compliance with NEPA, Buy America, 
Davis-Bacon wage rates, and others. Some prospective borrowers 
have told the Bureau they are not familiar with Federal 
requirements and have a learning curve in both understanding 
how to comply and structuring compliant projects that are 
financially viable.
    To address this obstacle, the Bureau has had one-on-one 
meetings to educate potential borrowers on Federal requirements 
and to assist project sponsors in developing complete and 
quality applications.
    Third, project sponsors are used to the time line 
commercial banks use for short-term construction loans. TIFIA 
and RRIF loans typically have 40-year or longer maturities, 
meaning they have both short-term construction risk and long- 
term revenue risk. This combination complicates and lengthens 
the underwriting process.
    The Bureau has explored innovative approaches such as 
teaming with short-term lenders and collaborating with HUD and 
other Federal agencies to develop viable financing products and 
to streamline the process. As our program matures and we close 
more loans, we should be able to standardize our process and 
procedures, and develop template documents that could further 
streamline the process and reduce time lines.
    In early 2021, we had no TOD projects in the Bureau's 
active pipeline, even though the authority had been in place 
since late 2015. Today, interest in the TOD pipeline is robust, 
with over 40 TOD projects actively engaging with the Bureau on 
utilizing its financing programs. We anticipate our TOD 
pipeline and portfolio will continue growing quickly, and 
welcome any opportunity to improve our programs and deliver 
quality experiences that achieve the intended program outcomes.
    Thank you, Chairman Schatz, Ranking Member Hyde-Smith, for 
this opportunity. I would be happy to answer any questions you 
might have for us.
    [The statement follows:]
           Prepared Statement of Dr. Morteza Farajian, Ph.D.
    Thank you, Chair Schatz, Ranking Member Hyde-Smith, and Members of 
the subcommittee for the opportunity to discuss Build America Bureau 
(Bureau) financing and transit-oriented development (TOD). In my 
testimony today, I will highlight the Bureau's TOD authority, 
activities, and remaining challenges.
    First, I will summarize what we do. The Build America Bureau (also 
called the National Surface Transportation and Innovative Finance 
Bureau) advances investment in America's infrastructure by lending 
Federal funds at below market rates under favorable terms to qualified 
borrowers while protecting taxpayers; clearing roadblocks for 
creditworthy projects; and encouraging use of best practices in project 
planning, financing, and delivery.

  --The Bureau currently has 115 Transportation Infrastructure Finance 
        and Innovation Act (TIFIA) and Railroad Rehabilitation and 
        Improvement Financing (RRIF) program loans and loan tranches to 
        71 distinct borrowers from 23 States and the District of 
        Columbia that are in construction or operations, totaling just 
        over $31 billion in credit extended.

  --With the FY 2025 budget proposal to repurpose balances in support 
        of the National Infrastructure Investment Grant Program, the 
        Bureau continues to have substantial capacity for new lending: 
        TIFIA will have over a billion in available credit subsidy 
        budget authority, with up to 15 percent of TIFIA's annual 
        funding available for TOD projects; RRIF has traditionally 
        relied upon borrower-paid credit risk premiums to pay the 
        subsidy cost of its loans, and has $35 billion in overall 
        lending capacity.

    The Bureau also administers four grant programs to expand the 
public sector's capacity to finance and deliver infrastructure. The 
Regional Infrastructure Accelerator Program helps public entities 
develop priorities and financing strategies to accelerate projects 
eligible for TIFIA credit assistance. The Thriving Communities Program 
provides technical assistance, planning, and capacity building support 
to smaller and under-resourced communities through Capacity Builders-
technical assistance providers that support groups of communities based 
on their common needs. The Bipartisan Infrastructure Law (BIL) 
established the Rural and Tribal Assistance Pilot Program, which funds 
pre-construction and pre-development studies for rural and Tribal 
communities, and the Innovative Finance and Asset Concession Program, 
which provides grants to public entities to facilitate and evaluate 
public-private partnerships. We also offer customized direct technical 
assistance, for projects of all sizes and project sponsors with 
different experience levels. Finally, the Bureau administers private 
activity bonds allocated by USDOT for qualified highway or surface 
freight transfer facilities.
    The Fixing America's Surface Transportation (FAST) Act authorized 
the Bureau to offer TOD projects. TOD projects include public 
infrastructure or economic development projects (including affordable 
and workforce housing and commercial development) located near or 
physically or functionally related to transit, passenger rail, or 
multimodal stations. TOD projects can transform underperforming and 
underutilized assets, increase transit and passenger rail ridership and 
revenue, facilitate office-to-residential conversions, and support 
affordable, equitable, multimodal access to opportunities and services. 
I am proud to say that in April 2024, the Bureau closed USDOT's first 
TOD loan-up to $26.8 million for the Mount Vernon (Washington) Library 
Commons Project, now under construction. Our financing will save the 
community at least $3 million compared to other financing options.
    Building and implementing the TOD authorities Congress gave us has 
been incremental and steady. We published TOD guidance and a policy 
statement on our website. We held 5 webinars in the past year for more 
than 500 participants. We also participated in webinars with the White 
House and with the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development 
(HUD) and presentations at the U.S. Housing and Community Development 
Conference, National Housing and Rehabilitation Association, and Urban 
Land Institute. We hosted in-person technical workshops in Austin, 
Kansas City, Los Angeles, Chicago, and Jacksonville. To make our 
financing more accessible and attractive, USDOT announced it would 
provide transit and TOD projects TIFIA financing for up to 49 percent 
of project costs, the TIFIA statutory limit since 2012. USDOT typically 
limits TIFIA loans to 33 percent of project costs by policy.
    Even with this progress, prospective borrowers have communicated 
encountering challenges in utilizing TIFIA or RRIF for TOD projects, 
the most significant of which are the following:

  --TIFIA's legislation requires investment grade ratings. While this 
        level of rating protects taxpayers from defaults, it can be 
        unattainable for certain TOD projects (e.g., those pledging 
        project revenues as the repayment source). Typically, rating 
        agencies do not rate real estate deals that have both 
        construction and long-term financing elements, as these are not 
        common practice in the market. The Bureau has consulted with 
        rating agencies, several of whom are now developing rating 
        approaches for TOD projects. Some rating agencies have told me 
        they might have a hard time making the economics work to rate 
        smaller projects. Consequently, for some small projects the 
        cost to obtain a rating offsets the benefits TIFIA offers, 
        making TIFIA less attractive for those projects.

  --A range of Federal requirements apply to TIFIA and RRIF borrowers, 
        including compliance with the National Environmental Policy Act 
        (NEPA), Buy America, Davis- Bacon wage rates, and others. Some 
        prospective borrowers have told the Bureau they are not 
        familiar with Federal requirements and have a learning curve in 
        both understanding how to comply and structuring compliant 
        projects that are financially viable. To address this obstacle, 
        the Bureau has had one-on-one meetings to educate potential 
        borrowers on Federal requirements and to assist project 
        sponsors in developing complete and quality applications.

  --Project sponsors are used to the timeline commercial banks use for 
        short-term construction loans. TIFIA and RRIF loans typically 
        have 40-year or longer maturities, meaning they have both 
        short-term construction risk and long-term revenue risk. This 
        combination complicates-and lengthens-the underwriting process. 
        The Bureau has explored innovative approaches, such as teaming 
        with short-term lenders and other Federal agencies, and 
        collaboration with HUD and other Federal agencies to develop 
        effective products and to streamline the process. As our 
        program matures and we close a few more TOD loans, we should be 
        able to standardize our process and procedures and develop 
        template documents that could further streamline the process.

    In early 2021, we had no TOD projects in the Bureau's active 
pipeline, even though the authority had been in place since late 2015. 
Today, interest in the TOD pipeline is robust, with over 20 TOD 
projects engaging with the Bureau on utilizing its financing programs. 
We anticipate our TOD pipeline and portfolio will continue growing 
quickly and welcome any opportunity to improve our programs and deliver 
quality customer experiences that achieve the intended program 
outcomes.
    Thank you, Chairman Schatz and Ranking Member Hyde-Smith. I would 
be happy to answer any questions you might have.

    Senator Schatz. Thank you. Dr. Loh, please proceed with 
your testimony.
STATEMENT OF DR. TRACY HADDEN LOH, FELLOW, BROOKINGS 
            INSTITUTE
    Dr. Loh. Good morning, Members of the Subcommittee. And 
thank you for the opportunity to offer testimony as you explore 
the potential of applying innovative public financing tools to 
produce desperately needed affordable housing in ideal 
locations near transit.
    My name is Tracy Hadden Loh, and I am a Fellow at the 
Brookings Institution where I study commercial real estate. I 
also represent the District of Columbia on the Washington 
Metropolitan Area Transit Authority Board.
    However, what I am about to say is my own opinion and does 
not necessarily represent the opinions of the staff, officers, 
or trustees of Brookings, or those of the WMATA Board or staff.
    With that out of the way, there are three reasons why the 
public would benefit from the real existence of a working tool 
for transit-oriented multifamily finance.
    First, I assume that everyone here is already aware that 
the U.S. is in a housing crisis where we do not have enough 
homes in needed locations, and costs are at record highs.
    The question is what to do about it. As my colleagues at 
Brookings have recently noted, making apartments more 
affordable starts with understanding the costs of building 
them. The 20- to 30 percent of a typical project's soft costs 
related to permitting and financing are directly shaped by 
public policy and regulation. And affordable housing projects 
often have higher soft costs due to the complexity of 
financing. So any intervention that reduces the cost of 
financing for affordable housing projects can directly improve 
their feasibility and affordability.
    Second, recently new multifamily starts have collapsed due 
to higher interest rates and lower property values that are a 
factor of rising operating costs reducing net income. A major 
lesson that we learned from the Great Recession was that there 
are better economic outcomes during and after a downturn, when 
the government helps move capital counter-cyclically. While the 
Federal Housing Administration already does this through 
mortgage insurance, it is also hypothetically possible for the 
Federal Government to do this through direct finance.
    Third, the case of transit-oriented development is a unique 
use case for the Federal role in multifamily finance that 
directly addresses the need to balance risk and reward in the 
public interest. There is a lot of Federal money invested in 
transit systems, and they create value in the locations they 
serve that is a reward to be captured, and at reduced public 
risk. One study found that transit-accessible multifamily 
properties are 58 percent less likely to default.
    The U.S. Department of Transportation has over $100 billion 
ready for deployment at very low interest rates through the 
TIFIA and RRIF programs. These programs have traditionally 
helped finance major transportation projects.
    However, as we just heard, the first real estate project to 
close on a TIFIA loan happened in April. This a big milestone 
but additional statutory, and regulatory changes, and 
clarifications are needed to make this financing more 
accessible. DOT's NEPA process is lengthy and incompatible with 
projects that also need to attract private equity capital in 
order to complete their capital stack.
    That kind of project succeeds or fails based on the time it 
takes for a project to go from conception to occupancy and 
stabilization. Other agencies like HUD, Agriculture, and the 
EDA have NEPA processes that are more efficient. There is a 
need for either an interagency collaboration or a new process 
within the DOT.
    Similarly, Buy America requirements that are impactful and 
make sense for billion- or trillion-dollar infrastructure 
projects are unnecessary deal killers on smaller-scale real 
estate projects. An administrative waiver or legislative action 
to speed up the more pressing policy priority of building 
housing near transit, makes sense.
    Congress should also consider increasing the maximum loan-
to-cost threshold for TIFIA from 49 percent to match RRIF, 
which already allows loans up to 75 percent loan to cost. This 
would reduce the burden on project sponsors to find gap 
financing.
    Finally, TIFIA borrowers are required to have an 
investment-grade rating in order to receive a loan. The problem 
is that rating agencies don't typically even rate the debt of 
individual real estate projects. There are ways to work around 
this but streamlining would be both appropriate and better.
    In terms of advice to the administration, the development 
of model documents, including a pro forma financial model for 
transit-oriented development projects, could provide more 
clarity than any number of webinars, workshops, or pages of 
guidance, and this should be an immediate priority for the 
Build America Bureau.
    Transit-oriented development is a logical and elegant 
solution to multiple problems; however, significant barriers to 
using TIFIA and RRIF financing for real estate are real.
    Here are three reasons why it makes sense to debug this 
now: Any countercyclical housing lending is helpful, and 
affordable housing near transit achieves many broadly shared 
policy goals. Two, some projects will never be strong 
candidates for conventional debt but provide significant public 
benefits and merit a lender of last resort. This is relevant 
for rural areas. The first TIFIA real estate project in Mount 
Vernon, Washington, is next to an Amtrak station in the county 
seat of a rural county that also contains three Native American 
reservations. That is an example of how this program matters 
everywhere.
    Three, commercial real estate as a sector will likely see a 
medium-term lack of liquidity; however, the broader economic 
and social need for capital to flow in order to adapt the build 
environment to new economic and demographic realities is 
urgent. Available facilities should be deployed and not idled 
on the sidelines.
    This is a time where there is a broad need for government 
to do more with the same level of resources and deliver 
positive economic, social, and environmental returns. Transit-
oriented development is an opportunity to do so, which merits 
this committee's scrutiny.
    Thank you for the opportunity to inform your considerations 
on this topic.
    [The statement follows:]
               Prepared Statement of Dr. Tracy Hadden Loh
    Good afternoon, members of the committee, and thank you for the 
opportunity to offer testimony as you explore the potential of applying 
innovative financing tools administered by the Department of 
Transportation's Build America Bureau to produce desperately needed 
affordable housing in ideal locations: near transit service.
    My name is Tracy Hadden Loh, and I am a fellow with the Bass Center 
for Transformative Placemaking at Brookings Metro. Transformative 
placemaking is an integrated practice that breaks down the siloes 
between professional disciplines-including real estate and 
transportation planning-to advance local growth and development through 
holistic, interconnected strategies. I'm here today to share insights 
gleaned from our work at the Center to create new knowledge, policies, 
investment strategies, practices, and tools to build more great places 
that work for more people.
    According to the Census Bureau's 2021 Rental Housing Finance 
Survey, the three most common sources of mortgage loans for multifamily 
housing are commercial banks, mortgage banks, and credit unions.\1\ In 
that survey, these sources provided capital to an estimated 4,569 
properties, while alternative sources of financing (including public 
options) serviced only 137 properties-a trickle next to a stream. This 
could be interpreted as an indication that conventional lenders have 
the multifamily market covered, and are multifamily builders' preferred 
source of capital. Is a public option needed?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \1\ U.S. Census Bureau. (2021) Rental Housing Finance Survey 
(RHFS). https://www.census.gov/data- tools/demo/rhfs/#/
?s_tableName=TABLE5&s_moe=showmoe
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The answer to this question depends on the goal that policymakers 
are trying to achieve. It is clear that in good times, traditional 
finance has learned how to invest in multifamily construction, and 
builders work with these capital sources. The caveat is that right now 
these are not the best of times. Additionally, we are not necessarily 
getting the most needed housing in the most needed locations. 
Multifamily housing production is facing challenges, and there is an 
opportunity to respond.
    The remainder of this testimony will outline the three-part case 
for why the public sector should consider creating new tools for 
multifamily lending, especially for transit-oriented development. I 
will then specifically address the potential of the Build America 
Bureau's lending tools and how they are-and are not-suited to this use 
case.
The three-part case for more tools for public sector multifamily 
        finance
    First, as my colleagues at Brookings and elsewhere have recently 
noted, ``Making apartments more affordable starts with understanding 
the costs of building them.'' \2\ Recent research on the inputs to 
production of multifamily housing notes that while the majority (50% to 
70%) of project costs are ``hard costs'' related to labor and 
materials, the 20% to 30% of a typical project's ``soft costs'' related 
to permitting and financing are of particular public sector interest 
because these costs are directly shaped by public policy and 
regulation, and ``affordable housing projects often have higher soft 
costs due to the complexity of financing.'' \3\ Any intervention that 
reduces the cost of financing for affordable housing projects can 
directly improve their feasibility and affordability.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \2\ Hoyt, H. & Schuetz, J. (2020, May 5) Making apartments more 
affordable starts with understanding the costs of building them. 
Brookings Institution. https://www.brookings.edu/articles/making-
apartments-more-affordable- starts-with-understanding-the-costs-of-
building-them/
    \3\ Hoyt, H. & Schuetz, J. (2020, May 19) Flexible zoning and 
streamlined procedures can make housing more affordable. Brookings 
Institution. https://www.brookings.edu/articles/flexible-zoning-and-
streamlined-procedures- can-make-housing-more-affordable/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Second, real estate is a cyclical industry because of its reliance 
on finance and, therefore, economic cycles. As shown in Figure 1, 
multifamily housing production has fluctuated dramatically over time-
much more so than natural demand (i.e., population), with downturns in 
production typically coinciding with recessions.\4\ However, most 
recently, new multifamily starts have collapsed even without a 
recession, due to higher interest rates and lower property values that 
are a factor of rising operating costs (e.g., insurance) reducing net 
income.\5\ A major lesson learned from the Great Recession was that 
there are better economic outcomes during and after economic downturns, 
when government backing is available to help move capital counter-
cyclically.\6\ While the Federal Housing Administration does this 
through mortgage insurance, it is also hypothetically possible for the 
Federal Government to do this through direct finance. However, any 
potential change to the Federal role in multifamily finance should be 
carefully considered to avoid exposing the public to unbearable costs 
and/or risk.\7\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \4\ Figure 1 can also be accessed online at https://
fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=1ohWg.
    \5\ Goodman, L., et al. (2023, November 30). Housing Finance: At a 
Glance Monthly Chartbook, November 2023. Urban Institute. https://
www.urban.org/research/publication/housing-finance-glance-monthly-
chartbook- november-2023
    \6\ Passmore, W., & Sherlund, S. M. (2018). The FHA and the GSEs as 
Countercyclical Tools in the Mortgage Markets. Federal Reserve Bank of 
New York Economic Policy Review, 24(3) https://www.newyorkfed.org/
medialibrary/media/research/epr/2018/EPR_2018_fha-and- 
gses_passmore.pdf?sc_lang=en ; Young, S.D., Browne, E.K. & Moroz, P.C. 
(2021). The Countercyclical Nature of the Federal Housing 
Administration in Multifamily Finance. Cityscape: A Journal of Policy 
Development and Research, 23(1), 319-338. https://www.huduser.gov/
portal/periodicals/cityscpe/vol23num1/ch15.pdf
    \7\ Congressional Budget Office. (2015). The Federal Role in the 
Financing of Multifamily Rental Properties. https://www.cbo.gov/
publication/51006

Figure 1. US multifamily housing production and population trends


    Third, the case of transit-oriented development is a unique use 
case for a Federal role in multifamily finance that directly addresses 
the need to balance risk and reward in the public interest in 
multifamily lending. As the literal book on transit-oriented 
development notes, a ``strong real-estate market 'floats all boats, but 
when the tide goes out it is the boats in the best position relative to 
transit that continue to float.'' \8\ This assertion, reported to 
researchers in a qualitative interview, is consistent with the findings 
of studies testing relationships between location affordability (i.e., 
lower transportation costs from transit access) and foreclosure 
outcomes after the Great Recession, for both single-family and 
multifamily properties.\9\ While the evidence indicates transit-
oriented development has lower foreclosure risks, some transit- 
oriented development projects also have higher risks related to the 
complexity of executing mixed-use projects or those that involve joint 
development with a transit authority and higher hard costs related to 
infrastructure that make them unattractive to conventional lenders and 
in need of alternative financing.\10\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \8\ Cervero, R., et al. (2004). Transit-Oriented Development in the 
United States: Experiences, Challenges, and Prospects. Transit 
Cooperative Research Program. https://nap.nationalacademies.org/
catalog/23360/transit- oriented-development-in-the-united-States-
experiences-challenges-and-prospects
    \9\ Wang, K. & Immergluck, D. (2019). Neighborhood Affordability 
and Housing Market Resilience. Journal of the American Planning 
Association. 18(5). https://doi.org/10.1080/01944363.2019.1647793
    \10\ Venner, M. & Ecola, L. (2007). Financing Transit-Oriented 
Development: Understanding and Overcoming Obstacles. National Academies 
of Science: Transportation Research Board. 1996(1). https://doi.org/
10.3141/1996- 03
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Over the past three decades, the Federal Government has spent an 
average of about $14 billion each year on transit.\11\ Mass transit and 
rail are both cumulatively and currently the third- largest category of 
public spending on infrastructure, after highways and water.\12\ Given 
the magnitude of this investment, there is a clear public interest in 
maximizing the utility and performance of the resulting assets, and 
land use is key factor in transit ridership trends.\13\ Locations 
proximate to transit are also ideal for lower-income households who 
need affordable housing, because these locations also reduce their 
transportation cost burden.\14\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \11\ Congressional Budget Office. (2022, March 22). Federal 
Financial Support for Public Transportation. https://www.cbo.gov/
publication/57636
    \12\ Congressional Budget Office. (2018, October 15). Public 
Spending on Transportation and Water Infrastructure, 1956 to 2017. 
https://www.cbo.gov/publication/54539
    \13\ Watkins, K., et al. (2022). Recent Decline in Public 
Transportation Ridership: Analysis, Causes, and Responses. Transit 
Cooperative Research Program. https://nap.nationalacademies.org/
catalog/26320/recent-decline-in- public-transportation-ridership-
analysis-causes-and-responses
    \14\ Renne, J.L, et al. (2016). The Cost and Affordability Paradox 
of Transit-Oriented Development: A Comparison of Housing and 
Transportation Costs Across Transit-Oriented Development, Hybrid and 
Transit-Adjacent Development Station Typologies. Housing Policy Debate, 
26(4-5), 819-834. https://doi.org/10.1080/10511482.2016.1193038
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
The current applicability and challenges of Build America Bureau 
        lending tools
    The U.S. Department of Transportation (DOT) has over $100 billion 
ready for deployment at very low interest rates through the 
Transportation Infrastructure Finance and Innovation Act (TIFIA) and 
the Railroad Rehabilitation and Improvement Financing (RRIF) 
program.\15\ These programs have traditionally helped finance major 
transportation projects, such as constructing roads, bridges, and 
tracks. Both the 2015 Fixing America's Surface Transportation (FAST) 
Act and the 2021 Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act contained 
reforms intended to make it easier for transit-oriented development to 
leverage TIFIA and RRIF. Since 2021, the DOT has also made 
administrative changes to the program to facilitate deployment.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \15\ Build American Bureau. (n.d) Transit Oriented Development 
Financing Overview. [PowerPoint Slides]. U.S. Department of 
Transportation. https://www.transportation.gov/sites/
buildamerica.dot.gov/files/2024- 01/2024_FinancingTOD.pdf
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The first real estate project to close on a TIFIA loan happened 
last month (May 2024).\16\ This is because the Biden administration has 
prioritized figuring out administrative issues with the programs and 
providing technical assistance to potential users. However, additional 
statutory and regulatory changes and clarifications are needed to make 
this resource more accessible:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \16\ McAdams, B. & Loh, T.H. (2024, May 30). How local governments 
can put their assets to work. Brookings Institution. https://
www.brookings.edu/articles/how-local-governments-can-put-their-assets-
to-work/

  --Because TIFIA and RRIF were originally intended for transit, rail, 
        and roadway projects, there remains a requirement that projects 
        undergo a review for environmental impact. That doesn't make 
        sense for infill real estate development. Projects are likely 
        eligible for a categorical exclusion under the National 
        Environmental Policy Act (NEPA), but it's a time-consuming, 
        bureaucratic headache for public-private investments that 
        succeed or fail based on the time it takes for a project to go 
        from conception to occupancy and stabilization. Other agencies-
        such as the Department of Housing and Urban Development, 
        Department of Agriculture, and Economic Development 
        Administration- have NEPA processes that are much more 
        efficient. There is a need for resources to support either an 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
        interagency collaboration or a new process within the DOT.

  --Similarly, ``Buy America'' requirements that are impactful and make 
        sense for billion- or trillion-dollar infrastructure projects 
        are unnecessary deal-killers on smaller-scale real estate 
        projects. An administrative waiver to speed up the more 
        pressing policy priority of building housing near transit makes 
        sense.

  --Congress should consider increasing the maximum loan-to-cost (L2C) 
        threshold for TIFIA from 49% to match the RRIF program, which 
        allows loans up to 75% L2C for transit- oriented development 
        and 100% L2C for public infrastructure. This would reduce the 
        burden on project sponsors to find gap financing from other 
        sources, which for some projects will make the difference 
        between feasibility and impossibility. It is also more 
        consistent with typical real estate practice, in which most 
        real estate developments borrow 60% to 70% of their project 
        costs from commercial lenders and secure the remaining 30% to 
        40% from private equity (at a much higher cost).

  --TIFIA borrowers are required to have an investment grade rating in 
        order to receive a loan. That's unrealistic for a tool intended 
        to encourage transit-oriented real estate development. Rating 
        agencies don't typically even rate the debt for these types of 
        projects. Applicants have found some workarounds, but it's 
        another instance in which the tool needs an update to work 
        better for this new use.

  --While RRIF does not technically require an investment grade rating, 
        the publication of guidelines for setting the RRIF credit-risk 
        premium rate (based on a project's credit rating, collateral 
        ratio, pre-lease or pre-sale rates, etc.) so developers can 
        have some early expectation of the outcome of this critical 
        step in the underwriting process could make or break the value 
        and feasibility of RRIF as a debt source.

  --The development of model documents-including a pro forma financial 
        model-for transit-oriented development projects could provide 
        more clarity than any number of webinars, workshops, or pages 
        of guidance. This should be an immediate priority for the Build 
        America Bureau.

  --There are questions about whether the definitions in Chapter 53 of 
        Title 49, which covers public transportation, authorize the 
        Federal Transit Administration to oversee transit-oriented 
        development projects. This could be clarified in the statute, 
        or the Build America Bureau could be given project oversight 
        authority for transit-oriented development.
                               conclusion
    Transit-oriented development is a logical and elegant solution to 
multiple problems. However, that does not mean it is easy. The barriers 
to using TIFIA and RIFF financing for real estate are significant, but 
there is new motivation to justify addressing them for several key 
reasons:

  --Any counter-cyclical housing lending is helpful, and affordable 
        housing near transit achieves many broadly shared policy goals 
        (such as production, improving the efficiency of existing 
        Federal transportation investments, and climate).

  --Some projects will never be strong candidates for conventional 
        debt, but provide significant public benefits and merit a 
        lender of last resort. The first TIFIA real estate project-in 
        Mount Vernon, Wash., located next to an Amtrak station in the 
        county seat of a rural county that also contains three Native 
        American reservations-is an example of this.

  --Commercial real estate as a sector will likely see a medium-term 
        lack of liquidity because of a confluence of factors, 
        especially rising defaults in both office and multifamily and 
        persistently higher interest rates. However, the broader 
        economic and social need for capital to flow in order to adapt 
        the built environment to new realities is urgent. Available 
        facilities should be deployed, not idled on the sidelines.

    We are in a time where there is a broad need for government to do 
more with the same level of resources and deliver positive economic, 
social, and environmental returns. Transit-oriented development is an 
opportunity to do so, which merits this committee's scrutiny. I thank 
you for the opportunity to inform your considerations on this topic.

    Senator Schatz. Thank you, Dr. Loh.
    Mr. Nagraj, please proceed with your testimony.
STATEMENT OF MR. ADHI NAGRAJ, CHIEF DEVELOPMENT 
            OFFICER, MCCORMACK BARON SALAZAR
    Mr. Nagraj. Great, thank you. Good morning. Thanks for 
having me. And it is really--I see you on TV all the time, so 
it is nice to see you in person. And it has been 25 years, 
Senator Reed, so good to see you again. It has been a while.
    My name is Adhi Nagraj, and I am an attorney and the Chief 
Development Officer at McCormack Baron Salazar. In this 
capacity, I oversee affordable housing and mixed-income real 
estate development projects around the country. Based in St. 
Louis, Missouri, MBS is one of the Nation's leading developers, 
managers, and asset managers of economically integrated urban 
neighborhoods.
    Since 1973, MBS has been an innovator in community 
development and urban revitalization, including in TIFIA-
eligible transit-oriented neighborhoods. In all, we have built 
22,000 high-quality affordable and mixed-income apartments for 
families, children, seniors, and veterans in 47 cities.
    Over the past several decades, MBS has worked closely with 
the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development, other 
Federal agencies, senators, members of Congress, as well as 
state and local partners to finance our properties and keep 
rents affordable for our residents. The primary tool that we, 
and most other developers, use to finance affordable housing is 
the Low-Income Housing Tax Credit administered by the IRS.
    Every individual project that MBS constructs is owned by a 
separate special purpose entity that receives an allocation of 
credits that it sells to private investors who secure limited 
partnership interests in the projects. In exchange for 
receiving the tax credits and other benefits, the investor 
provides the equity that we need to build housing.
    In addition to securing equity, MBS and other affordable 
housing developers often take out private loans from commercial 
banks or the FHA to finance construction. As interest rates 
rise, the amount of debt any project can leverage goes down, 
which is why this inflationary market with high interest rates, 
increasing construction costs, and a soaring insurance market 
has been particularly challenging for the affordable housing 
industry.
    For these reasons, we researched with enthusiasm the 
prospect of utilizing TIFIA or RRIF loan products, essentially 
low-interest 35-year fully amortizing loans to help close the 
gaps of our projects around the country. As a national leader 
in urban infill development, often at transit locations, MBS 
felt that our affordable housing developments in local 
communities would significantly benefit from this tool.
    However, legislative action is needed to effectively pair 
TIFIA with LIHTC. Below is a summary of technical challenges 
and potential solutions:
    One is the ratings of partnerships, so again, as has been 
spoken about, when developers build new buildings, we create 
special-purpose entities, new limited partnerships or LLCs to 
prevent cross-collateralization across multiple properties. And 
so the investment-grade requirement, when you set up a new 
entity it has no borrowing history, and so that makes us 
ineligible to use the TIFIA product.
    The development community would need a legislative change 
to this rule in order to use TIFIA funding. One potential 
solution is to use the underwriting metrics from FHA or another 
HUD office familiar with assessing risk for affordable housing 
transactions in lieu of securing a specific rating for a 
borrower.
    Two, is timing: All funding sources have to be legally 
bound prior to or simultaneously to closing on a TIFIA or RRIF 
loan. The challenge is that many state housing finance agencies 
require developers to secure written commitments for all 
funding prior to applying for tax credits and tax-exempt bonds. 
It creates a chicken-and-egg dynamic. We can't secure a TIFIA 
loan without securing tax credits, but we can't secure tax 
credits without securing TIFIA.
    One workaround would be for DOT to underwrite specific 
deals and issue conditional commitments to projects that would 
make closings conditional upon meeting other obligations, 
including securing other financing. This would allow developers 
to use the TIFIA conditional commitment to secure credits and 
bonds, and then we can close on all financing simultaneously.
    Two other things that I will note in my remaining time, 
both have been discussed a little bit, one is the role of 
intercreditor agreements: So as was just mentioned, TIFIA 
finance is up to 49 percent of your project costs, I would say 
in the affordable world, with restricted rents and high 
operating expenses, we actually don't get that close to 49 
percent, because there are expensive projects that are near 
transit, and the NOI and debt that you can leverage is not 
close to 49 percent--net operating income--sorry. In the market 
rate world that has higher rents you do--the 49 percent does 
become a barrier.
    We then have a gap in the financing, so we could have a 
TIFIA loan, project equity, and there is a gap. The gap could 
be filled by a commercial lender, but then we would have to 
negotiate intercreditor agreements between a commercial bank 
and the DOT in order to negotiate things like what happens upon 
foreclosure, refinancing, surplus cash flow, just all the risks 
of a commercial lender working with the Federal Government. So 
we would have to work through that challenge, and it would be 
great to have more certainty on rules around that.
    The last item has to with resyndications. At the end of a 
15-year tax credit compliance period in the affordable world, 
owners such as MBS look to resyndicate or rehabilitate the 
properties; that is where the investor exits the partnership. 
We can bring on a new investor, source new equity to 
rehabilitate the properties, and there is no guidance and 
regulations around TIFIA, about what to do in year 15 when you 
want to resyndicate and bring in a new investor.
    In conclusion, the TIFIA program could be a valuable tool 
to accelerate the production of affordable housing apartments 
across the country at transit stations, meeting DOT's GHG 
reduction goals. However, the challenges outlined above would 
need to be addressed before the affordable housing community 
could utilize the program and better incorporate it into the 
existing array of financing tools, especially including the 
Low-Income Housing Tax Credit. Thank you.
    [The statement follows:]
                 Prepared Statement of Mr. Adhi Nagraj
    My name is Adhi Nagraj, I am the Chief Development Officer at 
McCormack Baron Salazar (MBS). In this capacity I oversee affordable 
housing real estate development projects across the country. Based in 
St. Louis, Missouri, MBS is one of the Nation's leading developers, 
managers and asset managers of economically integrated urban 
neighborhoods. Since 1973, MBS has been an innovator in community 
development and urban revitalization in 47 cities, having built more 
than 22,000 high-quality affordable and mixed-income apartments for 
families, children, seniors and veterans.
    As Congress and the Administration have appropriately prioritized 
infrastructure investment in the post-pandemic era, it is important to 
keep affordable housing in that conversation. The U.S. has a shortage 
of 7.3 million rental homes affordable and available to renters with 
extremely low incomes, according to the National Low Income Housing 
Coalition. In fact, no state has an adequate supply of affordable 
rental housing for the lowest-income renters. Housing insecurity 
negatively impacts job retention, academic performance, and mental and 
physical health, including the spread of Covid-19 among essential 
employees just a few years ago. Housing is infrastructure.
    As you may know, housing policy in recent decades has moved away 
from 100% government supported model that isolated economically 
vulnerable residents to a more resilient mixed- finance, mixed- income 
model that brings together public, private and philanthropic interests 
to strengthen communities and uplift households. Putting the financial 
pieces together for development and sustaining the community once built 
is as much art as science. And economic fluctuations add great stress 
to the model.
    Over the past several decades, MBS has worked closely with the U.S. 
Department of Housing and Urban Development, other Federal agencies, 
Senators and Members of Congress, as well as with State and local 
partners, to finance our properties and keep rents affordable for our 
residents. The primary tool that MBS and most other developers use to 
finance affordable housing is the Low-Income Housing Tax Credit, 
administered by the Internal Revenue Service. Every individual project 
that MBS constructs is owned by a separate special purpose entity that 
receives an allocation of credits that it sells to a private investor 
who secures limited partnership interests in the project. In exchange 
for receiving the tax credits and other tax benefits, the investor 
provides the equity needed to construct the building.
    In addition to securing equity, MBS and other affordable housing 
developers often take out private loans from commercial banks to 
finance construction. As interest rates rise, the amount of debt that 
any project can leverage goes down, which is why this inflationary 
market with high interest rates--compounded by increasing construction 
and labor costs and a soaring property insurance market--has been 
particularly challenging for the affordable housing industry.
    For these reasons we researched with enthusiasm the prospect of 
utilizing the TIFIA or RRIF loan products--essentially low interest 35-
year fully amortizing loans--to help close the gaps of our projects 
around the country. As a national leader in urban infill development, 
often at transit locations, MBS felt that our affordable developments 
and local communities would significantly benefit from this financing 
tool.
    However, our research found that TIFIA didn't pair well with the 
Low Income Housing Tax Credit program due to incompatible rules at DOT 
and IRS. Legislative action is needed to effectively pair TIFIA with 
LIHTC.

    Below is a summary of technical challenges with potential 
solutions:
                         ratings of partnership
    Under TIFIA rules, borrowers need to have an investment-grade 
rating. However, in the LIHTC industry, developers create special 
purpose entities that own individual affordable housing projects and 
have no borrowing history, therefore making them incapable of securing 
investment-grade credit ratings. Under the RRIF program the rating 
doesn't have to be any specific grade so this is less of an issue, but 
RRIF has a much narrower geographic focus and therefore fewer projects 
qualify. The development community would need a legislative change to 
this rule in order to use TIFIA funding. One potential solution is to 
use underwriting metrics from FHA or another HUD office familiar with 
assessing risk for affordable housing transactions in lieu of securing 
a specific rating.
                                 timing
    All funding sources have to be legally binding prior or 
simultaneously to closing on TIFIA/RRIF loans. The challenge is that 
many state housing finance agencies require that developers secure 
written commitments for all funding prior to applying for tax credits. 
It creates a chicken-and- egg dynamic--we cannot secure a TIFIA loan 
without securing tax credits, yet we cannot secure tax credits without 
securing a TIFIA loan. One work around would be for DOT to underwrite 
specific deals and issue ``conditional commitments'' to projects that 
would make closings conditioned upon meeting other obligations, 
including securing all other financing. That would allow developers to 
use the TIFIA conditional commitment to secure tax credit and close on 
all financing simultaneously.
                        intercreditor agreements
    The restrictive RRIF program finances up to 75% of eligible costs, 
and the TIFIA program finances 49% of eligible project costs. Under 
RRIF, developers can raise the capital stack 75/25 debt to equity. 
However, since TIFIA can only provide a loan equal to 49% of project 
costs, projects often need another lender to help finance the 
transaction. There's a high likelihood that incorporating a commercial 
lender into the capital stack will create problems, given the need to 
negotiate intercreditor agreements between DOT and the subordinate 
lender, negotiating for example events of default, split of surplus 
cash, and foreclosure. Additionally, commercial lenders will not be 
able to meet the DOT maturity terms which means the commercial banks 
will have a shorter term, and a repayment schedule or residual 
refinancing risk needs to be negotiated. Refinancing the subordinate 
loan in the middle of term of the senior DOT lender creates refinancing 
risk due to interest rate uncertainty.
                        year 15--resyndications
    At the end of the 15-year tax credit compliance period, owners such 
as MBS often look to resyndicate properties. During this process, 
developers secure new tax credits, sell them to a new limited partner, 
and generate additional tax credit equity needed to pay for the costs 
to rehabilitate the property and extend the term of affordability. 
However, the TIFIA rules don't explicitly allow for a refinancing 
during the 35-year loan term, which would need to be addressed given 
the frequency and need for properties to be resyndicated after the 
compliance period ends.
                               conclusion
    The TIFIA program could be a valuable tool to accelerate the 
production of affordable housing units across the country. However, the 
challenges outlined above would need to be addressed before the 
affordable housing development community could utilize this tool and 
better incorporate it into the existing array of financing tools, 
including and especially the Low-Income Housing Tax Credit program.

    If you have any questions, please email me at 
[email protected], or call me at 510-289-1502.

Sincerely, Adhi Nagraj
Chief Development Officer
McCormack Baron Salazar

    Senator Schatz. I want to thank all of our testifiers, 
really good input here. And I am probably going to do a second 
round. But I want to sort out of all the recommendations that 
you are making, what can be done administratively, and what 
can--even in that category, what would require a rule change 
rather than just a process change, and then what needs a 
statutory change?
    So, Dr. Farajian, I think you are up to explain which ones 
of these recommendations need a legislative action, and which 
ones are kind of on the administration? On the investment-grade 
rating requirement that is statutory; am I right about that?
    Dr. Farajian. Yes.
    Senator Schatz. Okay. So that is on us. It sounds like, 
although NEPA, Buy America, and Davis-Bacon are clearly 
statutory, there is some administrative flexibility to at least 
make it work better. Am I getting that right?
    Dr. Farajian. That is correct.
    Senator Schatz. Okay. And tell me about the amortization 
period under a TIFIA loan, we were talking earlier, it is 30 
years, or it may be up to 40, or how does this work?
    Dr. Farajian. It is typically 30- or 35 years, in addition 
to the construction period that could add up to 40 years, for 
example, if you apply 5 years for construction.
    Senator Schatz. Do you mean after the completion of 
construction, so that the loan period starts when the 
construction is complete?
    Dr. Farajian. Yes. So we don't count the construction 
years. If you count 5 years of construction, 35 years of the 
loan payment period, 40 years total amortization.
    Senator Schatz. And Dr. Loh, you were saying that is a 
problem?
    Dr. Loh. It is only attractive to some kinds of developers. 
You know, I would say for some developers, being able to 
amortize over a longer time period is really attractive. So for 
example, for the public sector who is probably going to get 
involved in a lot of these kinds of projects anyway in order to 
credit enhance them and meet that requirement. But in 
conventional commercial real estate, typically projects 
refinanced at the end of the construction period, and then they 
are looking for a ten-year loan.
    Senator Schatz. And I am just picturing a capital stack 
that includes like a 30- to 35-year amortization period, and 
then the remaining, say, 51 percent that is at a ten-year 
amortization period; can that even function? Can you sort of 
refinance the TIFIA loan and consolidate after the project is 
built? Does this work?
    Dr. Loh. Yeah, I think TIFIA loans can be refinanced 
anytime.
    Senator Schatz. Okay.
    Dr. Farajian. They can be refinanced without any penalty. 
So that is one of the flexibilities we provide. And also, we 
are flexible in terms of the term. Some borrowers want a 10-
year loan or a 15-year loan.
    Senator Schatz. Got it. Okay. Not a problem for us to 
solve. Template documents sound very smart. Can you please 
report back to the committee about that? The loan-to-cost 
threshold, is that also statutory?
    Dr. Loh. Yes, that is statutory. And I think that, you 
know, what I am proposing here is just to synchronize TIFIA and 
RRIF. You know, why favor projects that happen to be near a 
railroad station as opposed to a light rail station? I think in 
a normal person's mind, they think that these are rail 
stations.
    Senator Schatz. I am the T-HUD Chair, and I am not sure I 
could describe the difference between the two of those things. 
Can we go back to sort of how difficult the investment-grade 
rating requirement is, Mr. Nagraj? Just talk to me about how 
that basically doesn't work in the marketplace.
    Mr. Nagraj. Sure, it doesn't work. So you know, if we are 
looking to develop 100 units of affordable housing or mixed-
income housing somewhere in the city, we would set up a new 
limited partnership. We would source debt and equity, hire the 
architects, do the environmental testing, all the work that we 
need to do. That entity has no, you know, 10- 20-year borrowing 
history. It is a new special purpose entity that was set up 
just to own and operate one building.
    So it becomes a non-starter. And we do that purposely 
because we don't want to cross-collateralize 100 units here, 
with 100 units in Baltimore, and then all of a sudden to make 
each other at risk. So we very purposefully set up special-
purpose entities to individually own, when we do that, of 
course, there is this inability to have any kind of investment 
grade.
    Senator Schatz. So basically, the only way you can do this 
is if you are big enough to already be investment grade and you 
are doing a number of projects, or you are a county?
    Mr. Nagraj. That is right. And I again think about the FHA 
model of, when we propose a project to FHA, they say, hey, what 
are your costs? What are your streams of rents? Are your rents 
supportable? Is your debt supportable? You know, kind of prove 
to us that this project can operate successfully long term. 
They don't look at the borrowing history of the borrower; they 
look at the validity and the viability of the actual project.
    Senator Schatz. And that is to say nothing about the sort 
of administrative burden, time, and money it takes to actually 
get your credit assessed even if you could, because this 
requirement, which sort of exists for counties, you know, by 
the way, on the tribal side, this is also a problem because 
some tribes, you know, go to Wall Street and make their pitch 
and get their, you know, A-minus or B-plus credit rating or AA 
credit rating, but a lot of them are too small to go in and do 
that kind of analysis and demonstrate that kind of 
creditworthiness. So this is like, you know, in multiple ways 
not working.
    Dr. Loh, you were going to say something?
    Dr. Loh. Yeah, I mean, this is about protecting the public 
from risk which, as a taxpayer, I am in favor of, but, you 
know, the question is: how much risk? If a trillion-dollar 
infrastructure project defaulted, that does feel like that 
would be kind of bad. But these real estate projects are much 
smaller, and requiring an investment-grade rating is like 
crushing an ant with a boulder in terms of, like, 
congratulations, the ant is dead, the public is protected from 
risk. But you could have gotten it with something much smaller 
and more practical.
    Senator Schatz. Or just like normal underwriting?
    Dr. Loh. Correct.
    Senator Schatz. Okay. And that is the point I think you 
are--yes.
    Dr. Loh. Yes. I am not proposing, do not vet these 
projects, and do not protect the public from risk. Instead, 
underwrite the way that all other real estate is underwritten?
    Senator Schatz. Right. Which is, you look at the project 
and see whether it makes any sense. What about this requirement 
that the TIFIA money be sort of the last dollar in?
    Dr. Farajian, is that something you can fix, or is this all 
going to end up being on us to pass a new bill that includes 
all these technical fixes? But I am trying to sort out which of 
these things you think the Department could fix without our 
intervention?
    Dr. Farajian. The requirement that we have is to make sure 
that at the time that we close a loan, the project is fully 
funded. So there are no more gaps in the project. Because there 
have been cases in the past that we would underwrite a loan, we 
would approve the loan, the project would start construction, 
but there is still a gap, and the project cannot be completed. 
But that doesn't mean that we would like to be the last dollar 
spent on the project. We can be the first dollar spent on the 
project. By the time that we close a loan, we would must see 
the project fully funded.
    Senator Schatz. Right. But if those requirements exist for 
other parts of the capital stack, then aren't we actually 
stuck?
    Dr. Farajian. We can actually work with them to close 
simultaneously. So we work with other lenders to close at the 
same time, to make sure that they know that our loan is being 
closed, and we know that their loan is being closed.
    Senator Schatz. Vice Chair Hyde-Smith.
    Senator Hyde-Smith. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As I noted in 
my opening remarks, the TOD has not gained nearly as much 
traction in rural areas but has seen growth in larger, more 
urban population centers as a means of creating connected 
communities. But my first question for all three of you, the 
panel, is kind of twofold. What unique challenges do less 
densely populated areas face when considering a TOD project? 
And how can the Federal Government assist small or midsize 
communities in ensuring that the benefits of TOD are not just 
constrained to urban areas? And I will start with whomever.
    Mr. Nagraj. Thank you for the questions. Those are real 
challenges. On the first question around unique challenges to 
less densely populated areas, infrastructure costs are 
significant. So when we are building in more remote locations 
around the country, just the trenching, the power, the water, 
all the costs that are not going to yield an immediate return 
on your investment because you have got to do a high amount of 
infrastructure before you can go vertical.
    So essentially, finding a subsidy, or finding some source 
to pay for that infrastructure cost, because essentially as we 
build around the country, and in Huntsville, Alabama, or 
Winston-Salem, North Carolina, we are creating new roads, and 
streets, and utilities that didn't exist anymore. So finding a 
source to help finance that would be critical, and because only 
once we do that can we go vertical. So I think that would be a 
critical piece.
    Senator Hyde-Smith. Very good.
    Dr. Loh. I would just like to jump in and add that, you 
know, what rural communities want is to be connected, you know, 
connected to their larger regional economies and to the 
national economy. They don't want to have to leave and go 
somewhere else in order to be connected. And part of 
maintaining, for example, you know, rail service at smaller 
stations in more rural areas is to do this kind of place-
making, real estate land development around the station in 
order to make sure that the station has demand, and remains a 
vibrant anchor that can justify the rail service that preserves 
connections between communities that have historically been 
connected.
    Senator Hyde-Smith. Thank you. Very logical.
    Dr. Farajian. Thank you for that question, Senator. A 
couple of issues that I hear from rural communities I can 
quickly summarize for you. One is, we have a program called the 
Rural Project Initiative, under which we cut the interest rate 
from Treasury rate, which is the regular rate that we charge, 
to half of Treasury rate. That is very popular with a lot of 
rural communities. We have financed many projects since 2019 
when we rolled out of that initiative.
    We have ten projects right now in our Rural Project 
Initiative pipeline, four of them being TOD. The biggest 
challenge that I am hearing from them is a legislative 
requirement that those projects to receive half Treasury rate, 
those projects need to cost less than $100 million. And $100 
million years ago would have been a substantial amount of money 
for a lot of these projects. Today, a lot of these projects are 
hitting that threshold. That is a big challenge for them.
    The other challenge is we can waive the requirement for 
them to reimburse the Bureau's advisor cost, and we pay for 
those advisor fees out of our TIFIA subsidy budget that we 
receive, but as long as the projects cost less than $75 
million. That is another challenge, that a lot of these rural 
communities, they have to pay upfront for the Bureau's advisor 
fees that, unfortunately, we cannot pay for, even though we 
have the budget for it, because of that [$75 million total 
project cost] limitation.
    The third challenge is having capacity at the local level 
to comply with Federal requirements, for example understand how 
to go through NEPA process, understand how to go through 
underwriting process. We have a couple of technical assistance 
programs to help those projects; Innovative Finance and Asset 
Concession Program I mentioned earlier, Thriving Communities, 
Regional Infrastructure Accelerator Program.
    The experience has been very good. We are working with a 
lot of rural communities, but of course, there is more need out 
there than what we have so far met. So we will be happy to 
expand those programs and work with more communities to build 
more capacity at the local level.
    Senator Hyde-Smith. Very, very helpful.
    Mr. Nagraj. Excuse me?
    Senator Hyde-Smith. My next question is that--oh. I am 
sorry?
    Mr. Nagraj. Could I make one more? Sorry, to interrupt you.
    Senator Hyde-Smith. Absolutely.
    Mr. Nagraj. Just one more point on this, that I am 
reflecting back on some projects we are looking at in Missouri, 
and other kind of lower, lower-dense communities, and that is, 
I think it is worth revisiting the transit requirements and 
specifically what we are seeing is this -- the term ``intercity 
bus'', and some of the requirements that we have, they have 
kind of curious definitions. And I know this is a little bit in 
the weeds, but it is super important. And I think it prevents 
projects from either qualifying or not.
    The definition around intercity bus includes bus routes 
where 50 percent or more of the passengers do not make a same-
day return trip, which is curious, if we are trying to promote 
TOD and greenhouse gas reduction, the fact that we are trying 
to incentivize people not making a return trip is, I think, too 
restrictive. And when we look at the definition of bus rapid 
transit, fixed-route bus systems that operate at least 50 
percent of the service on a fixed guideway, so requiring a 
fixed guideway or a separated lane, when I think about a lot of 
rural communities, it is just intercity buses, I think if we 
eased up on those definitions, it would open up the door for a 
lot more eligible projects.
    Senator Hyde-Smith. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am over my 
time.
    Senator Schatz. Senator Reed.
    Senator Reed. Well, thank you very much for your excellent 
testimony. And Dr. Farajian, thank you for coming up to Rhode 
Island, meeting with state leaders, and talking about how we 
can really get moving on this project. And I have to commend 
Dr. Loh, and Mr. Nagraj, for the wisdom of going to Brown 
University. It has eminently been demonstrated here today. You 
are well educated.
    It strikes me, Dr. Farajian, that HUD has been in the 
business of housing, affordable housing, for a long time, the 
FHA. Are we trying to coordinate and essentially make your 
regulations look a lot like their regulations? I know there are 
some exceptions, but is that an ongoing project?
    Dr. Farajian. Thanks for that question, Senator. Yes, we 
have been talking to HUD, working with HUD, trying to learn 
from them. As you said, they have a lot of experience in this 
field, it is new for us. We are trying to learn as much as we 
can. There are differences in terms of legislations we have, in 
terms of regulations we have, and then some of our policies and 
regulations were not developed or drafted for TOD, and we need 
to go back and revise them. So we are going through that 
process now.
    Senator Reed. Yeah, it seems that we have a responsibility, 
just a general sort of macro view and we are talking about 
housing here, we are not really talking about developing 
transportation facilities; that they have to be there, so this 
should be about housing. And if we simplify it to make it look 
just like, or as close as we can, to FHA policy, et cetera, I 
think we will be in a much better position; is that fair?
    Dr. Farajian. Yes, I agree with you on that. And we are 
doing our best, to the extent possible, to be close as the 
process proceeds.
    Senator Reed. And we have to do our best too.
    Dr. Loh, your comments, and then Mr. Nagraj; do you have 
any comments?
    Dr. Loh. Yeah. I mean, I am certainly in agreement. I think 
that HUD does have a ton of experience at protecting the public 
interest while at the same time helping these projects actually 
happen.
    Senator Reed. Thank you.
    Mr. Nagraj. Yeah, I was going to say that FHA has a lot of 
sophisticated staff who are used to underwriting these 
projects. FHA also works with servicers, kind of third-party 
companies opposed to FHA staff working with a hundred or more, 
hundreds of developers and developments around the country, 
they contract with individual companies and then the 
contractors' contract with us, so it reduces the administrative 
burden.
    Senator Reed. Right. And there is an outreach program 
essentially, so that some developers might not be aware of 
that, because there is a transit facility nearby they could 
participate in this, but with that outreach, they would. One 
other issue I think, Mr.--excuse me----
    Mr. Nagraj. That is all right. It happens all the time; 
Nagraj.
    Senator Reed. Can I call you Adhi, [Aad-hi]?
    Mr. Nagraj. Adhi.
    Senator Reed. The reason we know each other from 25 years 
is he was in the city here in Providence, Rhode Island, so we 
are all pals. Should we put some emphasis or incentives for 
affordable housing? Right now there is nothing in there, so 
essentially someone could come into you and say: I want to 
build luxury apartments $1.5 million until you get to the top 
floors. And you would say, okay, well, let us go. Should we 
have some affordable housing emphasis, either incentives or 
rules?
    Mr. Nagraj. I certainly think so. I think so. According to 
the National Low Income Housing Coalition we have a shortage of 
over 7 million homes for low-income people. Low-income housing 
impacts job retention, academic performance, mental health, 
physical health so I think we have to have those kinds of 
incentives.
    There have been studies in California with all the TODs 
around there that low-income people near transit have higher 
transit usage than wealthy people, market rate people, and it 
is because market rate people have a lot more options between 
private cars, and Uber, and Lyft, than do low-income people. So 
I think we can enhance our GHG reduction goals by including 
some affordability requirement on these developments.
    Senator Reed. And your comments, this is a presumption, I 
don't know, but in rural areas you would more likely not find 
luxury--I mean, rural-rural areas luxury apartments. That is 
the place where you would probably have a real demand for 
affordable housing; is that accurate?
    Mr. Nagraj. That is right. We work in a lot of communities 
where there is need for housing but the incomes just haven't 
caught up with the need, and so those are communities, 
especially where we need to support the middle-class jobs, the 
lower-class jobs, and people who do need to commute a long way 
to their employers. So I think it is critically important 
there.
    Senator Reed. Very good.
    Dr. Loh. Can I add just a little bit to this?
    Senator Reed. Yes, ma'am, please.
    Dr. Loh. So what I would encourage the subcommittee to 
consider, is just given that this program has had trouble 
achieving escape velocity in producing any housing, that just 
be careful about making it more complicated, to making the 
projects that would use the source of financing more complex. 
That said, I do think there clearly is a special case for more 
generous terms for projects that include affordable housing.
    But I have heard a lot of creative ideas about how the 
Build America Bureau is thinking about being more generous, you 
know, like for example, reducing the rate below the Treasury 
rate for certain kinds of projects. If the subcommittee will 
consider increasing the loan-to-cost ratio for TIFIA, perhaps 
that could be tied to increase affordability.
    Senator Reed. No, I concur, a simplification, that is why I 
am suggesting we look at what HUD does. It has been in the 
field a long time. And we try to be just like that so it is 
simpler for the developer. And also the Buy American versions, 
the chairman mentioned, probably and you commented probably not 
necessary given the type of construction we are doing, and the 
cost we have to maintain, so, ``Keep it simple, stupid'', is my 
rule. Thank you.
    Mr. Nagraj. And Senator, if I may add? I would just like to 
continue on that thought, that the rural project initiative 
that I mentioned earlier have a Treasury rate that has been 
very successful. It is for a policy that Congress deemed 
necessary, and we have a lot of interest in it. A similar model 
can be used for other type of policies that Congress wants to 
promote.
    Senator Reed. Thank you very much for that. Thank you. 
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Senator Schatz. Senator Hyde-Smith.
    Senator Hyde-Smith. I just have one more that I am going to 
do it the same way. The TOD projects are primarily driven by 
the local entities due to the need for land zoning and things 
like that. But the success of combining TOD and affordable 
housing is dependent on these local relationships. And how can 
transit agencies better partner with housing authorities, 
developers, and other stakeholders at the local level to 
increase the supply of affordable housing? How can we improve 
that?
    Dr. Farajian. I can go first. Well, thanks for that 
question, Senator. And thanks to all the good work that members 
of the subcommittee and committee put into passing the 
Bipartisan Infrastructure Law. We have got a couple of very 
effective tools that I mentioned in my testimony, one of them 
being the Innovative Finance and Asset Concession Grant 
Program, which right now we are evaluating the applications 
that we have received.
    It allows us to provide funding to transit agencies, or 
other public project owners, project sponsors, like 
municipalities and DOTs, that own assets that are underutilized 
but have potential for better utilization.
    The goal is to scan those assets, screen them, identify the 
ones that have potential for further development, create a 
database of those assets, and share them database with public 
and private companies that could then create partnerships with 
public entities and develop them. Most of those assets, by 
default, are going to be located around transit stations, 
because those assets that need to be scanned under the program 
to be eligible for TIFIA financing.
    So we saw a lot of interest. I am very optimistic about the 
program. Of course, it is new, we are just establishing it, we 
are rolling it out, but we saw significant interest. In the 
discussions that we have had with many transit agencies, they 
have highlighted to me that while they have assets, many 
agencies don't know where those assets are, and what is the 
true value of those assets, what can be done. So hopefully 
through this program, we will be able to unlock value from some 
of those assets.
    Senator Hyde-Smith. Thank you.
    Dr. Loh. I will just pile on there and say that transit 
agencies, systematically, are underfunded to achieve their core 
mission of delivering transit service. And so it is really 
difficult for them to think even bigger than that core mission 
and get at this integration between land use and 
transportation, even though commonsense indicates, man, these 
transit agencies have all these really valuable assets, why 
don't they just develop them?
    You know, this is a capacity issue regarding achieving 
their core mission. And so any way to uniquely support 
additional capacity, especially bringing expertise and capacity 
from the private sector, which does the vast majority of real 
estate in the United States, to these kinds of public assets, 
is the solution that we need right now.
    Otherwise, you know I think that the challenge of transit-
oriented development is that costs are systematically higher. 
The infrastructure costs are higher because a lot of this land 
is needed to continue serving a transit purpose, even as it 
also makes sense for it to serve a housing purpose. And so that 
systematically makes the projects more expensive.
    There is pressure on these projects to include significant 
ability because we know that is who needs to live near transit 
the most. But once again, all that does is increase the gap 
between feasibility and the project's cost.
    So anything that the Federal Government can do in order to 
provide both the capacity and the resources to close that gap, 
I believe that the public will be more than paid back any broad 
public benefits that will come from better integrating land use 
and transportation in terms of changes to travel behavior and 
strengthening housing markets.
    Senator Hyde-Smith. Okay.
    Mr. Nagraj. If I could just add one more thing. Just a 
concrete example, in the Bay Area, the Bay Area Rapid Transit 
BART System, secured a large planning grant to look at all 
their stations and look to see what are financially feasible 
TODs that they could have at their individual stations and what 
should the affordability requirements be,
    Frankly, a really difficult thing is, what to do with the 
parking lots, because people do get upset if they lose their 
parking, and how to finance replacement parking. And so they 
secured a large planning grant and that it was transit and 
planners working together, because I agree at a lot of these 
transportation organizations, keeping their transit systems 
alive, especially right now, is our primary challenge, and it 
is a daunting 25-hour task and the partnership work.
    But as we worked around the country, when you talked about 
partnership with agencies right here, or close to here in 
Baltimore, at Perkins Homes, in Atlanta, in Syracuse, all these 
are communities where housing authorities and cities are 
working together to plan communities to accommodate the 
divergent needs of a community, because no community has is a 
monolith.
    But they are able to spend time on the planning, and the 
outreach in order to make sure that the agencies and the people 
are on board, so that we can, we can build up. And because of 
the challenges that Dr. Loh just talked about, that is where 
feel like, if we could unlock the TIFIA financing scheme it 
could help overcome a lot of these challenges on TOD that we 
don't face in projects that are not near transit.
    Senator Hyde-Smith. Thank you all. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Senator Schatz. Senator Van Hollen.
    Senator Van Hollen. Thank you Chairman Schatz, Ranking 
Member Hyde-Smith.
    Thank all of you for your testimony. I have been trying to 
keep one ear on your testimony on C-Span before I got here, but 
I apologize if I sort of retread territory you have already 
covered.
    But in my State of Maryland, the Maryland Department of 
Transportation has a growing interest in pursuing TOD projects, 
generally, and it is reviewing opportunities for TOD at current 
and future stations along existing and future transit 
corridors, including the future West Baltimore Redline Station 
in Maryland. We are trying to revive the Red Line in Baltimore, 
and that recently received a TOD Planning Grant.
    So Dr. Farajian, as Maryland, and Maryland DOT 
specifically, evaluates these TOD opportunities, what should we 
be factoring into the decision process when considering whether 
it is a good TIFIA candidate or not? And what is the benefit to 
Maryland for using the TIFIA Program for financing these 
projects, versus the private market or other existing state 
financing options?
    Dr. Farajian. Thank you for that question, Senator. 
Maryland is not unfamiliar with our programs. We have closed a 
couple of loans in Maryland before. I believe on Purple Line, 
we have two loans right now, the initial loan and the 
subsequent loan we provided, as well as a couple of other 
projects. We have worked with Maryland DOT closely, we are 
actually in discussions with them on various issues, we will be 
more than happy to work with them.
    My recommendation to them is to come to us and talk to us 
about those projects as early as possible. I have experts that 
will be able to walk them through some of the requirements, and 
make sure that they don't do anything on those projects that 
would preclude them from being eligible for TOD loans.
    I mentioned earlier we have a couple of grant programs that 
I am not sure if Maryland has applied to the Innovative Finance 
and Asset Concession Grant Program that we are evaluating now, 
but the new round of course is going to go out as soon as we 
get the fiscal year 2025 budget approved. I would definitely 
suggest to them if they haven't applied, to apply for that. And 
we work with many counties, including Montgomery County.
    We just gave them a grant to establish what we call a 
Regional Infrastructure Accelerator in Montgomery County. We 
will be more than happy to work with them, because as you 
mentioned, there are a lot of opportunities in Maryland, a lot 
of good projects. And my staff and I would be happy to meet 
with anyone that you think would like to discuss any of these 
opportunities in more detail.
    Senator Van Hollen. I appreciate that, and they may well be 
listening. We will look forward to putting that you two in 
touch. As you say, I mean, Maryland has used TIFIA loans before 
the Purple Line you mentioned. I don't believe MDOT has used a 
TIFIA loan in connection with the TOD before. This is a more 
innovative new approach, and that is why we look forward to, 
you know, meeting to get a better sense.
    And I guess partly because this is a newer idea, it is an 
undersubscribed program, which means there is a lot of 
opportunity here for those who are sort of paying attention.
    But what can Congress do to better help communities, 
states, and Montgomery County, other counties in Maryland, 
other places around the country, learn more about and access 
the TIFIA Program at the Build America Bureau? So how can we 
make this more attractive to transit agencies?
    Dr. Farajian. There are a couple of factors that we can 
propose. Some of those factors require legislative change, 
especially related to TOD projects. I believe the number one 
factor that everyone here agrees is the rating requirement that 
is preventing a lot of projects to be eligible for TIFIA loans; 
that is a legislative requirement.
    For smaller projects, sometimes the size limit of the 
project can make them not feasible because some of the fees are 
fixed fees; for example, conducting a NEPA study, whether a 
project is a $50 million project or a $500 million project. For 
some of those projects, providing more incentives and 
initiatives through Congress that would be helpful for them; 
being able to waive, for example, their fees, or being able to 
provide lower interest rate to some of those projects.
    We do provide a lot of technical assistance that has been 
very successful at the Bureau. Our TOD project pipeline has 
grown significantly. The overall pipeline for Bureau has grown 
significantly, from almost $4 billion back in 2019, now we are 
at about $40 billion today. But we will continue the outreach, 
we will continue capacity building at local level.
    The other thing that I can tell you is what we are doing 
now at DOT is to make sure that we streamline our process, 
procedures, and everything that we can do internally to make 
sure that this new program, TOD, can fit within the broader 
programs that we have that were initially develop for highway, 
transit, or rail projects, not necessarily vertical 
development. That is an ongoing battle, ongoing process, so we 
need to go back and change some of the regulations and policies 
that have been in place for quite a long time to make sure that 
they are not putting additional burden on some of these TOD 
projects.
    Senator Van Hollen. Well, thank you for that, and I think 
we can sort of break these barriers and impediments into sort 
of two categories, well maybe three: One, is just getting more 
information out about these; two, is streamlining the process 
internally, but then you mentioned some of the legislative 
barriers that require the new laws, for example, with the 
rating systems.
    So if I could just ask our other two witnesses to comment 
on some of those suggestions for streamlining and improving 
this program and whether you have any additional thoughts as we 
move forward?
    Dr. Loh. Thank you, Senator. You know, I think this is the 
right question to ask. Requirements that make sense for 
billion- and trillion-dollar infrastructure projects should 
apply to those, do not necessarily translate to real estate 
projects that are much smaller but are a critical piece of 
those billion- and trillion-dollar infrastructure projects 
being successful, right? The Purple Line doesn't work if it is 
a Purple Line to nowhere.
    Senator Van Hollen. Right.
    Dr. Loh. And we want every station to be somewhere, and it 
is always possible, of course, technically possible, to comply 
with Federal requirements, but if that results in projects 
where the percent of the project costs that his lawyer is 
getting paid is as big as the percent of project costs that is 
low-income households having somewhere to live, that also has 
great transportation that, while great for lawyers, is 
unfortunate for the public.
    And so rightsizing the Federal administrative requirements 
on these projects is something that I think, ultimately, does 
serve the public interest and does not expose the public to 
more risk.
    And so, Buy America is a great example of that in the 
context of real estate. We want this to be great housing, 
right? Really good quality, built to contemporary building 
standards, but the kinds of heating and cooling systems that 
are used in the best quality LEED buildings now are only 
manufactured abroad.
    We aren't at the point where we have created a market for 
that in the United States. When we are ready, and that can 
happen, that will be great, but trying to force it to happen, 
trying to move the market one individual transit-oriented 
development project at a time, that doesn't work, and it 
doesn't scale the same way that it does work when you put those 
kinds of market-moving policies into a trillion-dollar 
infrastructure project.
    Senator Van Hollen. Thank you. I know, Mr. Chairman if you 
can keep it really short, your response.
    Mr. Nagraj. Sure. I will keep it really short.
    Senator Van Hollen. Thank you.
    Mr. Nagraj. McCormack Baron Salazar is working at Perkins 
Homes, just next to Downtown Baltimore, Fells Point, 800 units 
of mixed-income housing with the city, and the housing 
authority, and the state. And so we are in the middle of 
redeveloping the public housing, and what we are seeing with 
this densification is area median incomes are rising, it is 
kind of what we want in redeveloping a very distressed, low-
income community, and the need for mobility is increasing.
    So we are seeing, as we are kind of creating a new little 
mini-city in this otherwise disinvested neighborhood, the needs 
of the residents are growing. They need to be more mobile. I 
hope people see it as a false choice between transit and 
housing. The more housing we build at transit stations, the 
more it is going to increase ridership, and the more fare 
revenue is going to increase from the transit stations.
    So we do feel like this is synchronous. We talked earlier 
about the transit usage of low-income folks being higher than 
those with means because low-income folks don't have a ton of 
options, unlike folks who own cars, and Lyft, and Uber 
everywhere.
    So we think that that synergy is really important, and are 
hopeful that we can work this out because that spread on loans 
is massive between a TIFIA loan and a conventional loan. It can 
yield millions of dollars of savings, and that savings, while 
we don't want it to go to the lawyers, and no offense to the 
lawyers, could expedite the acceleration of new housing being 
built.
    Senator Van Hollen. Well, thank you. Thank you for 
mentioning Perkins Homes. I am glad you are working on that 
project. And really thank all of you. It has been very 
informative.
    Mr. Nagraj. Thank you.
    Senator Van Hollen. Thank you.
    Senator Schatz. Thank you, Senator Van Hollen.
    To close, you know, I think over the next year or so, I 
think the economy is doing fine. I think the real estate 
economy is not doing fine because of the interest rate 
environment. And I think this is the exact right time to start 
deploying these TIFIA loans for housing, because they are 
countercyclical, because of the spread between a commercially 
available loan and a TIFIA loan is massive at this point.
    And so our timing, although it is arguably 9 years delayed, 
some of this, you could be subject to criticism. Some of this 
was the previous administration sandbagging the Federal Law, 
but it is just worth pointing out that it is sort of go-time.
    And so along those lines, HUD has standard underwriting 
procedures. Dr. Farajian, why wouldn't we just sort of borrow 
those as opposed to reinventing the wheel here?
    Dr. Farajian. Thanks for that question, Senator. You are 
absolutely right. They do have underwriting procedures, we have 
been talking to them. There are some administrative challenges 
in terms of borrowing everything that they have, or even having 
access to everything that they have. We are working through 
some of those challenges, two different agencies, different 
processes and procedures. We are working with them, as I 
mentioned earlier, we are collaborating with them, but we have 
got to be mindful of some of those challenges that have slowed 
us down.
    Senator Schatz. I am not sure what you are talking about. 
It sounds like you are getting resistance, but I can't tell 
whether it is sort of interagency cultural resistance or like 
an actual problem.
    Dr. Farajian. It is just when two agencies are trying to 
make two programs that are different and separate from each 
other, work, and get together and make things work; there is a 
need to have an interagency agreement, there is a need to get 
the lawyers involved and make sure that the information that is 
being shared is all being shared in the right way, in the 
formal way. So there are steps that we need to go through--when 
we are trying to go through this.
    Senator Schatz. Sure. But we are not talking about private 
information; we are talking about a sort of template for 
analyzing whether something is a viable project. And I have a 
hard time believing, since you are in the Federal Government, 
and so is the other agency, that I get that you need to work it 
out, but you know, I will follow up through staff and directly 
with both Secretaries, but I just don't want us to get stuck.
    And I know how hard some of this stuff is, but not for good 
reasons. There may be good reasons that some of this HUD stuff 
doesn't work at DOT fine, but underwriting procedures, you 
don't make them up, they are not like boutique-ey little things 
where you say: Well, this is how I do it, you know, from the 
transportation perspective.
    Evaluating the viability of a project is a thing that 
people do, and mostly those things ought to rhyme. My 
understanding is a bunch of these projects potentially have an 
FHA portion of their capital stack, and potentially a TIFIA 
portion of their capital stack. I am getting nods, correct?
    Dr. Farajian. Yes.
    Senator Schatz. Okay. So if that is true, and something 
comes in through FHA and Ginnie Mae, hasn't the Federal 
Government established its creditworthiness, on the 
creditworthiness of the project? And do we need DOT to do its 
own analysis and require somebody to go to S&P, or Moody's, or 
whomever? Or can the fact that something has moved through this 
other Federal process and we have decided that is basically 
investment grade, some of the lowest risk stuff around, why 
wouldn't that suffice in terms of meeting the statutory 
requirement?
    Dr. Farajian. Well, the statute is very clear on requiring 
the borrowers to have the rating agencies to rate the TIFIA 
loan, so that is why we have to require it.
    Senator Schatz. Do you agree with that, Mr. Nagraj?
    Mr. Nagraj. I agree.
    Senator Schatz. I think overheard that you are.
    Mr. Nagraj. I agree that the statute says it. I do, as you 
are talking, you know, as a practitioner, I feel like there is 
kind of a small idea, and then a big idea. Maybe the solution 
was somewhere in the middle. The small idea is kind of 
coordination with a different department using, as you said, 
the same set of Regs and documents, and pro formas, and one set 
of lawyers.
    The big idea that I brainstormed was, you know, if there is 
a joint, you know, TOD office and there are folks from HUD, 
FHA, and DOT that are all kind of--and not to create a 
different bureaucracy, but I think it would kind of accelerate 
and create a super agency that could be the coordinating entity 
that developers and developments around the country work with.
    That for me is a bigger idea. It is a bit of consolidation, 
or kind of a super agency. But somewhere, whether it is kind of 
mere coordination or the creation of a joint TOD office, I 
think there has to be one set of docs, one set of Regs, so that 
we are not getting underwritten several times by different 
public agencies.
    Senator Schatz. I am 100 percent sure I can't pass a super 
agency in this Congress, so let us go for a working group. In 
all seriousness; I think we don't need a new statute, and a new 
architecture, and a new law, we could just start working 
together better, and certainly both Secretaries could say: You 
guys are going to work together, and here is the team. It can 
be informal, it can be a task force by memorandum, whatever, 
but I like the idea.
    And I am not quite satisfied, Dr. Farajian, that we 
couldn't meet the requirements if another executive agency is 
evaluating this, and determining its creditworthiness, so I am 
not a lawyer, but I think we should try to put our heads 
together and figure out if there is a work around here, 
especially in the short run.
    Dr. Farajian. Senator, I will take that back, and have the 
lawyers look at that.
    Senator Schatz. Okay. And if they have a bad answer, don't 
give it back to me. And certainly don't put it in writing. I am 
just kidding.
    But look, I'm thinking about legislative intent, right, we 
are saying the Congress said: Oh, and make sure this stuff is 
creditworthy. I am not sure we are opining about the particular 
mechanisms. Now, sometimes the plain language of the statute 
doesn't give us a lot of room to maneuver, but sometimes it 
does.
    And so I just think we need to press on this, especially 
even if we were able to make some of these changes, we still 
have to work them up and go through the legislative process. It 
could be, optimistically, 5 months, it could be, you know, 
pessimistically, way more than that.
    So we have got to work on parallel tracks to fix some of 
this stuff administratively. You know, I hope for the best and 
plan for the worst.
    The final question I have is just on the pipeline. You said 
there are, I guess, 20-23 projects in the current pipeline; is 
that correct?
    Dr. Farajian. It is changing every day, and it depends on 
the definition of ``pipeline''. We have received 48 letters of 
interest.
    Senator Schatz. Okay. So that is actually what I was going 
to ask because, like, you know, I deal with the great people at 
the Hawaii Housing Finance Development Corporation, and 
sometimes they have a spreadsheet that is like: Look, 28,000 
units, right. And then you kind of go like: Well, where are 
they? Do they have their entitlements? Do they have their 
commercial loan? Do they have a site control? Do they have all 
the rest of it?
    And so, what you are saying is the pipeline could be very 
early: Hey, we would like to learn about this, or it could be 
relatively far along. Is that the way I should understand this?
    Dr. Farajian. The 48 projects have submitted letters of 
interest, which is the first step to start our process.
    Senator Schatz. Okay.
    Dr. Farajian. They are a little bit more developed than 
some of the other projects that have just talked to us and said 
that we have an idea. So we have many more projects that have 
talked to us. They said, we have an idea, but they have not 
submitted anything in writing yet.
    Senator Schatz. How many are close to being consummated?
    Dr. Farajian. Twenty-four out of those 48, we have assigned 
what we call ``project development leads''. These are 
individuals within Build America Bureau, a single point of 
contact, who is working with them very closely.
    Senator Schatz. So they are case managed sort of one by 
one?
    Dr. Farajian. Yes, one by one, to help them, as I mentioned 
earlier, to maneuver through some of those challenges that we 
know exist for those projects.
    Senator Schatz. So let us just talk about throughput, so it 
is 48, or it is 20-something, or whatever; by the end of the 
year, what is an optimistic number of projects that will have 
gone through this pipeline and all the way to getting a loan?
    Dr. Farajian. So we just closed one deal. We have two other 
projects in credit worthiness right now, that we are actively 
underwriting loans for them. It is hard to say whether they 
close a loan or not, because the ball is sometimes in their 
court, and making sure that they can get things done on their 
side. But I believe one of them, which is a housing project, 
has a very, very high chance of closing at this point.
    Senator Schatz. So I guess my question is, I am asking you 
for your intuition. And if I were you, I would be a little 
nervous about supposing what might happen, but I am going to 
press you a little bit. It seems to me that you are optimistic 
that this thing has been delayed, pretty much intentionally in 
the previous administration, and then you have your normal, 
kind of like, Federal Government getting the wheels turning.
    And now we are at a point where this thing may be nonlinear 
in its growth. Is that what you are anticipating? Like, if we 
come back six, or eight, or twelve months from now, do you 
think you are going to have some more success to report?
    Dr. Farajian. Yes, Senator. I think the first few deals 
will be very difficult to close because we have a lot of 
challenges that we need to work through. But once we have a few 
of those deals through the process, once we have answered a lot 
of questions that we are already working on, I think the 
process is going to become much simpler next year for a lot of 
these deals to go through the process.
    Senator Schatz. Okay. And we are going to continue to track 
this, but I would like you to convey both to your department, 
and also we will convey it to HUD and to the White House, that 
this is something we are watching and that sometimes you pass a 
law, and it just sort of self-executes, right?
    Sometimes you have to do the do, and you have a lot of work 
to accomplish. If there is a place for this committee to nudge 
the bureaucracy along, if there are things that we can do to 
provide top cover or momentum, we want to do that.
    I mean, this is a highly technical space, and yet we had 
pretty good participation in this hearing. And usually, if it 
is something that requires a deep level of technical expertise, 
members find another place to be. But we are really interested 
in this, and so I want you to know we are going to be tracking 
this, and we are available for small favors that are in the 
four corners of the statute.
    So I want to thank all of the testifiers for being here 
sorry, I am going into my closing script. I am going to make it 
up.

                     ADDITIONAL COMMITTEE QUESTIONS

    The record will remain open for the next two weeks so that 
any member can submit questions for the record.

                          SUBCOMMITTEE RECESS

    Senator Schatz. Thank you for your time and testimony.
    [Whereupon, at 11:14 a.m., Tuesday, June 18, 2024, the 
hearing was adjourned, and the subcommittee was recessed, to 
reconvene subject to the call of the Chair.]

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