    [Senate Hearing 118-577]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]

                                                            S. Hrg. 118-577

                           NAME, IMAGE, AND LIKENESS,
                        AND THE FUTURE OF COLLEGE SPORTS

    =======================================================================

                                    HEARING

                                   BEFORE THE

                           COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY
                              UNITED STATES SENATE

                        ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                                 FIRST SESSION

                                   __________

                                OCTOBER 17, 2023

                                   __________

                              Serial No. J-118-35

                                   __________

             Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary

    [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

                            www.judiciary.senate.gov
                                www.govinfo.gov

                                   __________

                       U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
    58-971 PDF                  WASHINGTON : 2025

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                           COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY

                       RICHARD J. DURBIN, Illinois, Chair
    SHELDON WHITEHOUSE, Rhode Island     LINDSEY O. GRAHAM, South Carolina,
    AMY KLOBUCHAR, Minnesota                     Ranking Member
    CHRISTOPHER A. COONS, Delaware       CHARLES E. GRASSLEY, Iowa
    RICHARD BLUMENTHAL, Connecticut      JOHN CORNYN, Texas
    MAZIE K. HIRONO, Hawaii              MICHAEL S. LEE, Utah
    CORY A. BOOKER, New Jersey           TED CRUZ, Texas
    ALEX PADILLA, California             JOSH HAWLEY, Missouri
    JON OSSOFF, Georgia                  TOM COTTON, Arkansas
    PETER WELCH, Vermont                 JOHN KENNEDY, Louisiana
    LAPHONZA BUTLER, California \1\      THOM TILLIS, North Carolina
                                         MARSHA BLACKBURN, Tennessee
                 Joseph Zogby, Chief Counsel and Staff Director
          Katherine Nikas, Republican Chief Counsel and Staff Director

    \1\ At the time of the hearing, Senator Butler was not a Member of the
    Committee on the Judiciary. The Senate agreed to S. Res. 411, assigning
    Senator Butler to the Committee later that day, October 17, 2023.

                                C O N T E N T S

                                  ----------

                               OPENING STATEMENTS

                                                                       Page

    Durbin, Hon. Richard J.
        Prepared statement...........................................    54

    Blumenthal, Hon. Richard.........................................     1
    Graham, Hon. Lindsey O...........................................     3

                                   WITNESSES

    Manchin, Hon. Joe, III, a U.S. Senator from the State of West
      Virginia.......................................................    46

    Baker, Charlie...................................................     4
        Prepared statement...........................................    56
        Responses to written questions...............................    59

    Bodensteiner, Jill...............................................    13
        Prepared statement...........................................    85
        Responses to written questions...............................    88

    Huma, Ramogi.....................................................    10
        Prepared statement...........................................    97
        Responses to written questions...............................   102

    Jones, Walker....................................................    12
        Prepared statement...........................................   116
        Responses to written questions...............................   122

    Petitti, Tony....................................................     6
        Prepared statement...........................................   134
        Responses to written questions...............................   138

    Swarbrick, Jack..................................................    15
        Prepared statement...........................................   150
        Responses to written questions...............................   154

    Thomas, Trinity..................................................     8
        Prepared statement...........................................   161
        Responses to written questions...............................   163

                                    APPENDIX

    Items submitted for the record...................................    53

                         NAME, IMAGE, AND LIKENESS, AND
                          THE FUTURE OF COLLEGE SPORTS

                                  ----------

                           TUESDAY, OCTOBER 17, 2023

                                  United States Senate,
                                    Committee on the Judiciary,
                                                        Washington, DC.
        The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:06 a.m., in
    Room 216, Hart Senate Office Building, Hon. Richard Blumenthal
    presiding.
        Present: Senators Blumenthal [presiding], Whitehouse,
    Klobu-char, Coons, Booker, Padilla, Ossoff, Graham, Grassley,
    Cornyn, Lee, Cruz, Hawley, Cotton, Kennedy, Tillis, and
    Blackburn.
        Also present: Senator Manchin.

             OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. RICHARD BLUMENTHAL,
              A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF CONNECTICUT

        Senator Blumenthal. The hearing of the Judiciary Committee
    is called to order. Please take your seats, and welcome to all
    of our witnesses.
        I am very grateful to my colleague Senator Durbin for
    giving me this opportunity to chair the hearing, and we wish
    him a very, very speedy recovery. He evidently had knee
    surgery. I believe it may have been because of a college sports
    injury. And I don't know exactly all the details of his sports
    prowess. I've seen him in the Senate gym.
        But all of you know our colleague Senator Booker, who is
    truly a college athlete star and very knowledgeable on this
    topic and a partner with me in long-standing efforts to reform
    the system.
        I want to thank our Ranking Member, Senator Graham, who's
    been very interested and involved in this issue. And I'm going
    to put in the record a statement from Chairman Durbin before I
    begin my remarks.
        [The prepared statement of Chair Durbin appears as a
    submission for the record.]
        Senator Blumenthal. We all know, today, that this system of
    college athletes is in need of reform. That's why you're here.
    It's in need of reform now, which is why we're here. The
    system, all too long and often, has been exploitive and abusive
    financially, emotionally, physically. And we have had a number
    of hearings in other Committees--the Commerce Committee, as
    well as this one. And I am hopeful that this very impressive
    bipartisan group of witnesses can help to guide us toward
    specific steps with a sense of urgency that is appropriate for
    this kind of problem.
        The system, very simply, has been far more focused on
    profits than protecting students, and it has failed to
    safeguard them against the abusive and often exploitive system
    that takes advantage of their blood, sweat, and tears in
    creating a $16 billion industry.
        Make no mistake, it is a $16 billion or more industry that
    is fueled by the blood, sweat, and tears of these athletes, and
    all too often, they fail to benefit from it.
        Many States have passed NIL legislation. The Supreme Court
    has ruled in a 9-to-0 decision that has forced, in a sense, a
    day of reckoning. And I believe strongly that we need a
    national standard for name, image, and likeness, mainly to
    protect the athletes against potential disreputable agents or
    unscrupulous deals in a race to the bottom among a patchwork of
    States.
        That's important not only to protect the schools against
    unfair competition but also the athletes, themselves. And the
    idea of a national standard is what brings us here today in a
    very immediate sense.
        Student-athletes are better off now than they were, and
    many of your organizations have recognized the need for change.
    Charlie Baker, the head of the NCAA, specifically outlined some
    of the reforms that they have taken voluntarily.
        We've all read and heard alarming examples of these
    instances of exploitation and abuse. Every year, at least two
    college football players die of heat stroke. Just 3 months ago,
    Myzelle Law, from MidAmerica Nazarene, in Kansas, was found in
    the locker room after football practice, suffering a seizure
    with a body temperature of 108 degrees. Myzelle never
    recovered, and he died a week later.
        Heat stroke is one of the most gruesome ways to die. Truly
    horrible. It's absolutely preventable. These deaths are a
    product of bullying, a win-at-all-costs culture that is far too
    common in athletic departments.
        That culture creates the condition that costs the lives of
    talented young men and women like Myzelle, and it fosters the
    abusive hazing and sexual assault that we've seen at Baylor,
    Northwestern, San Jose State, and elsewhere.
        The NCAA, in past years, has failed to address this abuse
    as quickly and effectively as it should have. I agree that we
    should set a strong national standard and we ought to enshrine
    it in Federal law--enforceable, not just put it in the statutes
    but make sure that it is enforceable either through the
    separate corporation that Senator Booker and I have proposed,
    to enforce an Athletes Bill of Rights, or through some other
    means.
        As importantly as NIL, though, we need to address
    enforceable health and safety standards much more broadly and
    comprehensively. We need to ensure that college athletes are
    able to get an education in return for their blood, sweat, and
    tears.
        In July, I was proud to announce a draft bipartisan bill
    with Senator Booker and Senator Moran, the College Athletes
    Protection and Compensation Act. Our draft legislation would
    establish a strong national NIL standard, but it would also
    protect the well-being and educational success of student-
    athletes.
        Our student-athletes rights package would set health and
    safety standards to protect college athletes from serious
    injury, mistreatment, abuse, and even death. It would guarantee
    tuition and aid to student-athletes that suffer a career-ending
    injury or are cut from a team. It would establish a medical
    trust fund to cover health care for long-term injuries
    resulting from college athletes' participation in sports. And
    it would bring transparency to the NIL market and to college
    athletes programs.
        We've talked about these kinds of reforms for more than a
    decade. The time for action is now. There are lives ongoing,
    careers at stake, individuals who really need and deserve this
    kind of protection, and I'm very grateful to Senator Durbin and
    the Committee for addressing this topic. And I'd like to turn
    now to the Ranking Member.

              OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. LINDSEY O. GRAHAM,
            A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF SOUTH CAROLINA

        Senator Graham. Thank you, Senator Blumenthal. Yes, we're
    hoping that Senator Durbin gets back soon. I don't know what
    his 40 time will be after the knee injury, but in my case, I
    just want to run 40. I don't care how long it takes. I'm going
    to try to get Senator Booker's number and put it online, see if
    it'll make a little bit of money. What number were you?
        Senator Booker. 81.
        Senator Graham. 81. So, we meet today with the world on
    fire. To my Democratic colleagues, you have been very good to
    work with in trying to find a response to this horrific attack
    by Hamas against Israel that will make the world a better and
    safer place.
        So, as we talk about one of the more fun things in American
    life, college sports, I just want to let everyone out there
    know that this Committee is working hard to try to find a way
    to be helpful.
        In terms of being helpful, where I come from, South
    Carolina--and many people on this side--college football is not
    a sport, it's a religion. And we're very concerned about where
    this thing is going.
        I think there's a lot of bipartisan support; there needs to
    be a national standard. All of your schools need to have some
    guidance that applies to everybody, all the time. I think if
    you make college athletes employees, you're going to knock out
    sports programs for Division II. A lot of non-revenue-
    generating sports, particularly women's athletics, will go
    away.
        As you try to elevate some of the star players to make sure
    they get a piece of the pie, we don't want to create an
    environment where Division II or smaller Division I schools
    will be knocked out of the game because they can't afford it. I
    want it still to be an amateur sport, to the best that we can.
        So, to me, I want to associate myself with what Senator
    Blumenthal said. There needs to be a Federal standard.
        Utah is offering everybody on the team a new truck. There's
    no end to this. You know, donors are out there competing
    ferociously. In pro sports, you sign a contract. That means
    nobody's going to take that player away from you for a certain
    period of time. You've got a chance to get your money back.
        Between the portal and NIL, college football is in
    absolutely chaos, and we need to fix it. And so national
    legislation is the only way to fix it, and in our desire to
    protect the athlete, which is a worthy goal, we can't destroy
    by making it so expensive, non-revenue-generating sports. And
    we want to make sure that athletes at every level in college--
    smaller colleges--can play, too. That's the goal. I look
    forward to trying to find a solution. Thank you.
        Senator Blumenthal. Thanks, Senator Graham. I'll introduce
    the witnesses, and then we'll swear them in and turn to their
    statements.
        We're pleased to have all of you here today.
        Charlie Baker, our first witness, is president of the
    National Collegiate Athletic Association, or the NCAA. Mr.
    Baker is a former basketball player at Harvard, who also
    happened to serve as Governor of Massachusetts from 2015 to
    2023.
        We're joined by Tony Petitti, Commissioner of the Big Ten
    Conference. The Big Ten, one of the so-called Power Five
    conferences, is home to several powerhouse college athletic
    programs, which I know Chair Durbin would like to note includes
    the University of Illinois and Northwestern University.
        Our next witness is Trinity Thomas, an All-American gymnast
    at the University of Florida. Among her many accomplishments,
    Ms. Thomas is a two-time Honda award winner, given to top
    female athletes in college gymnastics, and she holds the NCAA
    record for perfect 10s, with 28. She is currently pursuing her
    second master's degree and has built an impressive NIL
    portfolio.
        We are also joined by Ramogi Huma, executive director of
    the National College Players Association, an organization he
    helped to found for college athletes' rights. Mr. Huma earned a
    bachelor's degree and a master of public health degree from
    UCLA, where he was a member of the football team. And he's been
    very helpful in the past, not only in advocacy but also in
    helping us shape legislation.
        Mr. Walker Jones, executive director of The Grove
    Collective, an entity designed to help athletes at the
    University of Mississippi monetize their NIL rights. Mr. Jones
    graduated with a bachelor's degree from the University of
    Mississippi, where he was a member of the college football
    team.
        Ms. Jill Bodensteiner, vice president and director of
    athletics at St. Joseph's University, a member of the board of
    directors of Women Leaders in College Sports. She can speak to
    the perspective of how smaller universities are dealing with
    the advent of NIL.
        And, finally, Jack Swarbrick, vice president and director
    of athletics at the University of Notre Dame. Mr. Swarbrick has
    helped to shape modern college athletics. Earlier this year, he
    co-authored an op-ed in The New York Times discussing the state
    of college sports.
        We welcome all of you, and would you please rise to take
    the oath, which is our custom?
        [Witnesses are sworn in.]
        Senator Blumenthal. Thank you. Mr. Baker, we'll begin with
    your testimony, please.

      STATEMENT OF CHARLIE BAKER, PRESIDENT, NATIONAL COLLEGIATE
              ATHLETIC ASSOCIATION, INDIANAPOLIS, INDIANA

        Mr. Baker. [Off microphone.]
        Senator Blumenthal. I think your microphone may not be on.
        Mr. Baker. Better?
        Senator Blumenthal. Yes.
        Mr. Baker. Okay. Thank you very much, Senator Blumenthal.
    To you and to Ranking Member Graham and the distinguished
    Members of the Committee, I want to start by thanking you all
    for the opportunity to be here today.
        Before I begin, I do want to say that on behalf of college
    sports, generally, we condemn the recent violence perpetrated
    by Hamas. These acts were horrific, hard to comprehend, and our
    thoughts are with the people of Israel and the innocents that
    are involved in that conflict.
        In advance of my testimony today, we did speak with leaders
    from all three divisions, and others, to ensure that I'm
    speaking for as broad a collection of NCAA voices as possible.
    That this Committee has made time to discuss college sports
    speaks to their importance, and we very much appreciate it.
        College sports are a ticket to an education for a half a
    million young people, generating $4 billion in college aid.
    College sports are cornerstones to countless campuses, and in
    turn they are cornerstones for thriving communities. College
    sports are America's Olympic pipeline, with 75 percent of the
    2022 Team USA coming up through NCAA sports.
        College sports are also long overdue for a change, but I'm
    proud to say we have been doing something about that. Since I
    took over as NCAA president 7 months ago, we've created a
    student-athlete health insurance fund that will provide all
    athletes across all three divisions access to health insurance
    for athletically related injuries for up to 2 years post-
    eligibility or graduation.
        Every DI school is now required to provide health care
    benefits, degree completion funds for at least 10 years after
    they stop competing, and mental health services to their
    student-athletes. Scholarships are protected, and schools must
    offer academic counseling, financial literacy, and career
    preparation. We've prioritized equitable championship
    experiences, and I've directed national office leadership to
    put gender equity at the center of everything they do.
        The NCAA also continues to advance commonsense changes to
    sports betting policies and enforcement policies that penalize
    the adults, not the young people.
        And the NCAA is moving NIL bylaws forward, to improve
    outcomes for student-athletes--we share your concern there--
    because they deserve to profit from their NIL, free from
    manipulation. These changes are long overdue, and they're
    happening now, thanks in part to calls for action from Members
    of this Committee and from the student-athletes themselves.
        There are some issues college sports face that we, the
    NCAA, cannot address on our own. Our new NIL bylaw proposal
    requires student-athletes to disclose certain information to
    their schools only and offers incentives to use fair contract
    terms and reputable agents. We want to partner with Congress to
    go further and curtail inducements and prevent collectives and
    other third parties from tampering with students, and we would
    like to have a national standard where a patchwork of laws, as
    you pointed out, Senator Blumenthal, currently exists.
        Schools, conferences, and the NCAA are making changes to
    the benefits that we provide. And to enable enhanced benefits
    while protecting programs from a one-size-fits-all approach, we
    support codifying current regulatory guidance into law by
    granting student-athletes special status that would affirm that
    they are not employees. And on this point, we're not alone.
        I visited Augustana College in South Dakota a few months
    ago, with Senator John Thune, to hear student-athletes talk
    about why they don't want to become employees. The elected
    student-athlete representatives from all three divisions are on
    record saying the same thing. They fear the current legal
    landscape turning them into employees, and they have called for
    action.
        The athletic conferences representing the vast majority of
    Historically Black Colleges and Universities have also
    supported this policy. They believe the progress they've made
    educating young people of color would be at risk if their
    athletic departments had to become employers.
        We also think there's opportunity for Congress to ensure,
    in this new era of collectives, that there's no discrimination
    on the basis of race, gender, or sport in the marketing or
    facilitation of NIL agreements.
        And, last, we want to partner with Congress to grant
    limited liability protection, so we can set reasonable
    competition standards and enforce student health and well-being
    requirements with direction from Congress.
        Let me just close with this. We're grateful for the time
    you're giving us today and appreciate the chance to exchange
    ideas with you. And I learned, serving as Governor, that the
    legislation branch has immense power and rightfully yields it
    sparingly. But I believe we can find common ground on this, and
    I look forward to helping student-athletes succeed in this new
    era. Thank you.
        The prepared statement of Mr. Baker appears as a submission
    for the record.]
        Senator Blumenthal. Thanks, Governor Baker. Mr. Petitti?

                STATEMENT OF TONY PETITTI, COMMISSIONER,
                 BIG TEN CONFERENCE, ROSEMONT, ILLINOIS

        Mr. Petitti. Thank you. Senator Blumenthal, Ranking Member
    Graham, and distinguished Members of the Committee, thank you
    for the opportunity to discuss the pertinent issues impacting
    collegiate athletics, including name, image, and likeness,
    commonly known as NIL. And thank you for your strong commitment
    to finding legislative solutions.
        We have been working closely with Senators Cruz,
    Blumenthal, and Booker on their legislative proposals, and I am
    encouraged to see there is strong interest in addressing the
    issues facing college sports.
        My name is Tony Petitti, and since May I've been proud to
    serve as the seventh commissioner of the Big Ten Conference,
    the country's oldest Division I collegiate conference. Although
    I've only been the Big Ten commissioner for 6 months, I have a
    long history of working in professional and college sports,
    particularly in Major League Baseball.
        I'm also a former student-athlete--was the first in my
    family to attend college. Like millions of Americans, being a
    college athlete helped me pursue a higher education while
    continuing to follow my passion for sports, which for me was
    baseball.
        The Big Ten Conference is deeply committed to academics,
    research, and broad-based sports opportunities for all
    students. We take great pride in the success of our student-
    athletes, both inside and outside the classroom during their
    time at Big Ten institutions, as well as afterwards. Student-
    athlete health and welfare is a top priority for us at the Big
    Ten. We provide both on-campus and post-separation health care,
    which guarantees that our student-athletes have access to
    medical care and mental health services both during and after
    their time on campus.
        While the Big Ten and other Autonomy Five conferences
    currently provide these important benefits, the Big Ten is open
    to and supports efforts to discuss additional health and
    wellness benefits for our student-athletes.
        As we've all discussed in recent years, the long-standing
    ``rat'' student-athlete model has undergone an incredible and
    rapid transformation. We see this confluence of events as an
    opportunity to fundamentally modify the dynamics that exist for
    student-athletes.
        We are prepared to modernize our guidelines to create a new
    framework for collegiate athletics, one that more fairly
    provides benefits to student-athletes directly from member
    institutions, maintains broad-based sports opportunities for
    men and women, and upholds Title IX.
        We see four main challenges that must be addressed by
    proper regulation to better protect and serve our student-
    athletes and to support a new governing structure.
        First, there are now more than 30 different State laws
    related to name, image, and likeness. Many States are passing
    NIL and associated laws designed specifically to provide their
    in-State universities with a competitive advantage in
    recruiting through the promise of NIL. To provide certainty,
    equity, and competitive balance, a uniform Federal statute is
    needed to preempt this network of State laws.
        Second, because of a combination of court decisions,
    current litigation, and State actions, the NCAA is unable to
    make or enforce commonsense regulations governing athletics.
    Through legislation, Congress should grant limited and
    conditional liability protections so that we can set and
    enforce reasonable competitive standards and promote student-
    athlete welfare.
        Third is the ability to effectively identify true NIL deals
    from pay-for-play or inducement schemes, particularly with the
    precipitous rise of collectives. Student-athletes are
    frequently being induced by collectives to attend specific
    institutions and transfer from one school to another without a
    true NIL deal. This has resulted in a pay-for-play system
    primarily controlled by boosters and executed under the guise
    of NIL.
        We are concerned that management of college athletics is
    shifting away from the universities to collectives. The Big Ten
    will continue to support students making true business deals
    off of their name, image, and likeness and provide student-
    athletes the freedom to choose the institutions from which they
    will obtain an education.
        We do not, however, support such activity when it is tied
    to a pay-for-play scheme disguised as NIL. Simply put, as the
    collegiate sports environment has evolved, so too have the
    motivations and goals of many collectives, which are now trying
    to create competitive advantages and are not subject to Title
    IX.
        We are already seeing that payments from collectives will
    not be easy to sustain. Without action from Congress, we will
    continue to lack the ability to manage collegiate athletics.
        Finally, I want to touch on the question of whether
    student-athletes should be classified as employees. Not only is
    employment status complex, but it is contrary to the
    educational model that has long flourished in American
    collegiate athletics.
        The Big Ten strongly supports congressional proposals that
    would codify benefits for student-athletes, that guarantee
    consistency across States and sports, without the need to
    classify student-athletes as employees.
        With many new challenges on the horizon, we look to
    Congress for your partnership in helping us embrace change and
    ensure that we tackle these new challenges effectively, while
    celebrating and promoting college athletics. Thank you, again,
    for the opportunity to appear before you today, and I look
    forward to answering any questions you may have.
        [The prepared statement of Mr. Petitti appears as a
    submission for the record.]
        Senator Blumenthal. Thank you, Mr. Petitti. Ms. Thomas?

                 STATEMENT OF TRINITY THOMAS, GYMNAST,
              UNIVERSITY OF FLORIDA, GAINESVILLE, FLORIDA

        Ms. Thomas. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to
    speak here today.
        I've spent the last 5 years competing on the University of
    Florida's gymnastics team. Over the course of my time at UF,
    I've completed my bachelor's degree in applied physiology and
    kinesiology and my master's degree in health education and
    behavior. I've had the privilege of competing before and after
    name, image, and likeness opportunities became available for
    student-athletes.
        The experiences that I've had along the way have helped me
    develop into the young woman that I am today. I'm currently
    serving as student assistant coach for the gymnastics team at
    the University of Florida, while pursuing a second master's
    degree in entrepreneurship and training for a chance to compete
    at the U.S. Olympic trials in 2024.
        As a student-athlete at the University of Florida, I've had
    the opportunity to receive an education from a top five
    university while also competing against some of the best
    gymnasts in the Nation. Competing against the best athletes on
    the biggest stages has provided me with more opportunities than
    I ever imagined possible when I started gymnastics as a little
    girl in Pennsylvania.
        One of the biggest opportunities that college gymnastics
    has given me is the ability to benefit from the changes in NIL
    policies that have recently come to college athletics. While
    student-athletes weren't yet able to benefit from NIL when I
    first arrived at the University of Florida, I was immediately
    intrigued once the rules were changed.
        It took many of my--me and my fellow athletes time to learn
    to navigate the waters of NIL, and everyone is still learning
    as we go, given it is a new and uncharted territory. It's been
    interesting to navigate, but I was able to interview and sign
    with agencies, partner with various companies, learn to become
    an entrepreneur, focus on building my brand, and work on so
    many cool personal projects that mean a lot to me.
        The first year that student-athletes had the ability to
    take advantage of NIL, I was able to get iPads for my younger
    siblings as Christmas gifts. Kids' gymnastics camps had the
    ability to promote the fact that I would be coming to work with
    them. I worked with companies to support women's sports and
    more.
        Unfortunately, one of the parts of NIL that makes it
    difficult for student-athletes is the varying laws and
    regulations that are in place from State to State. There
    currently is no single standard that applies to all student-
    athletes in all sports, which oftentimes leaves us confused. In
    some cases, the different laws also place certain student-
    athletes at a disadvantage, depending on where they go to
    school.
        Recently, I was invited to attend SEC Day on the Hill in
    Washington, DC, to speak with Representatives from Congress.
    Most of my discussions centered around the issue of NIL and
    allowed me to share some of my personal experiences as a
    student-athlete, including how NIL policies have impacted me
    personally, both the positives and the areas where there could
    still be improvements.
        While discussions were positive, it seems clear that the
    best path forward for everyone would be if we had a Federal NIL
    policy that applied to all athletes from every sport at every
    school and at every level.
        This will create equal opportunity for all student-athletes
    to benefit from NIL and will create a uniform standard to
    ensure we're all playing by the same rules and eliminate
    confusion and unfair advantages. A Federal law will also have
    the benefit of ensuring the future of sports, like gymnastics,
    are protected.
        The SEC is one of the Nation's hotbeds for showcasing and
    developing Olympic talent, and it would be a huge loss that
    would be felt well beyond just college athletics if these
    sports were put at risk due to any future legislation that
    might come from one State or another.
        Protecting the future of my sport and the dozens of other
    sports that have developed future Olympians should be a top
    priority. Not only do women's and Olympics sports at the
    collegiate level help young women like me receive a college
    education, but they also help athletes benefit from the very
    same NIL opportunities that I have experienced during my time
    as a student-athlete at the University of Florida.
        While college sports took a step forward with NIL during my
    time as a student-athlete, more can still be done to better the
    lives of all student-athletes. I'm hopeful we will soon have a
    national standard and the future of college athletics will be
    improved for the next generation of great student-athletes.
        Thank you for taking the time to focus on a topic that is
    important to me and hundreds of thousands of student-athletes
    all over the Nation.
        [The prepared statement of Ms. Thomas appears as a
    submission for the record.]
        Senator Blumenthal. Thank you so much, Ms. Thomas. Mr.
    Huma?

    STATEMENT OF RAMOGI HUMA, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, NATIONAL COLLEGE
                 PLAYERS ASSOCIATION, NORCO, CALIFORNIA

        Mr. Huma. Good morning. First, I would like to thank
    Chairman Durbin and Ranking Member Graham, Senator Blumenthal
    for allowing me to testify today.
        The National College Players Association, the NCPA, served
    as a sponsor of the first State NIL law in the Nation and
    successfully fought for the passage of NIL laws in a dozen
    other States. College athletes now have the ability to earn NIL
    compensation, just like other college students and American
    citizens.
        As hard as the NCPA has fought for college athletes' NIL
    freedoms, NIL should not be a priority for Congress, because
    athletes already have these freedoms. While there are some NIL-
    related areas that should be fine-tuned, such as athlete agent
    certification, there are more important issues that athletes
    desperately need Congress to prioritize.
        Instead of adopting an NIL-only bill, Congress should
    include broad-based reform that is critical in protecting
    college athletes.
        Many are shocked to learn that the NCAA refuses to enforce
    safety standards. It's not against NCAA rules for college
    athletics personnel to force an athlete back into the same game
    with a concussion, sexually abuse an athlete, or kill an
    athlete in a hazardous workout.
        Instead of helping these athlete victims, the NCAA coldly
    responds that it has no duty to protect college athletes. Then
    whose duty is it? These colleges receive Federal funds while
    creating hazardous conditions for their athletes. The NCPA's
    stance is that Congress has a responsibility to protect college
    athletes.
        The NCPA asks this Committee and Congress not to follow the
    NCAA's lead by skirting this important duty. The NCPA is
    grateful for so many of the Members of this Committee taking an
    active role in trying to address problems in NCAA sports
    through legislation.
        We believe there can be a bipartisan solution that can iron
    out some of the NIL issues as well as bringing forth critical
    broad-based reform, including the enforcement of safety
    standards, coverage for athletes of sports-related medical
    expenses, and prohibiting the NCAA from discriminating against
    female college athletes, like we saw during its March Madness
    tournament.
        The NCPA has been working closely with Senators Booker,
    Blumenthal, and Moran on a bipartisan draft that not only
    addresses NIL issues, it includes important broad-based
    reforms. And this draft continues to head in a promising
    direction.
        As a practical matter, any bipartisan legislation that can
    actually move through the Senate cannot have poison pills that
    would kill it. Such a bill shouldn't attempt to require or
    prohibit athlete revenue-sharing, require or prohibit athlete
    employment status, or attempt to give NCAA sports an antitrust
    exemption. There are strong beliefs about these areas among
    stakeholders, but these issues should be set aside so that
    bipartisan progress can be made in other important areas.
        Both before and after State NIL laws became effective, the
    NCAA and its conferences lobbied Congress for an antitrust
    exemption, which the NCPA strongly opposes. Antitrust lawsuits,
    U.S. DOJ antitrust investigations, and State legislation
    targeting NCAA antitrust violations have brought forth
    important economic freedoms and protections for college
    athletes.
        Because of antitrust laws, the NCAA can no longer price-fix
    an athletic scholarship below the cost of attendance, limit
    scholarships to only 1 year, prohibit colleges from providing
    medical coverage to athletes, or ban athletes from earning NIL
    compensation. The NCAA is a chronic antitrust violator and a
    glaring example of why antitrust laws are needed in this
    country.
        Another important issue, and one that is worthy of its own
    separate bill, is the harmful conference realignment that will
    require college athletes to spend many additional hours
    traveling at the expense of their academics and their health.
    These developments are nothing but a greedy TV money grab that
    treats athletes like commodities and their education like a
    punch line.
        Using athletes in predominantly Black sports to generate
    more TV dollars at the expense of their education, while Black
    football and basketball athletes suffer the lowest graduation
    rates, is unjustifiable.
        Another problem is that, as megaconferences emerge, each
    team and fan base will have less of a chance to win their
    conference. Colleges in megaconferences are literally selling
    out their athletic future for TV dollars, just to give a pay
    bump to coaches, athletic administrators, and spend on more
    shiny facilities.
        This is short-sighted, this harms college athletes, and the
    NCPA is encouraging Congress to pass legislation that would
    base conference realignment on reasonable regional proximity
    and limit the number of colleges in a conference.
        It's no secret that there are partisan divisions in many
    areas in American life, but sports is a special area. The NCPA
    has worked with lawmakers on both sides of the aisle to pass
    NIL laws in red States, blue States, and purple States, because
    when it comes to the well-being of college athletes, lawmakers
    who care about athletes find themselves on the same team,
    regardless of political party.
        Every future, current, and former college athlete in each
    of your States needs you to join this team and pass meaningful
    broad-based legislation. Thank you.
        [The prepared statement of Mr. Huma appears as a submission
    for the record.]
        Senator Blumenthal. Thanks very much, Mr. Huma. Mr. Jones?

             STATEMENT OF WALKER JONES, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR,
             THE GROVE COLLECTIVE, COLLIERVILLE, TENNESSEE

        Mr. Jones. Senator Blumenthal, Ranking Member Graham, and
    Members of the Committee, thank you so much for inviting me to
    be here today.
        My name is Walker Jones, and I'm the executive director of
    The Grove Collective, representing student-athletes at the
    University of Mississippi, and I'm also a founding member of
    the TCA, or The Collective Association, which is comprised of
    25 collegiate collectives from across the Power Five landscape,
    serving as advocates for over 50,000 student-athletes in 25
    sports.
        Our goal is to serve as a unified voice to shape the
    development of NIL, of the NIL market in college sport, by
    creating a sustainable model that gives student-athletes the
    ability to maximize their NIL platforms.
        Current data shows that collectives are responsible for
    approximately 80 percent of the money being paid to NCAA
    athletes through their NIL activities. Given this figure, the
    TCA is unique in that our members possess and are willing to
    share our firsthand knowledge of how NIL is working in your
    local communities, and we seek to partner with anyone who wants
    to produce well-informed and effective legislation benefiting
    collegiate student-athletes first.
        Unlike all our stakeholders in college sports, we work with
    everyone in the ecosystem by sitting at the point of
    intersection within NIL commerce.
        Before we delve into the substance, let me be very clear
    about one thing. Our organization and I are extremely bullish
    on college athletics. Are there aspects of the current model
    that need addressing and evolving? Of course. But the
    overwhelming majority of commerce with name, image, and
    likeness is positive.
        As a student-athlete in the late 90s, I can tell you that
    today's student-athletes have the resources and ability to deal
    with the realities that inevitably come to them in life.
    Whether they play professional sports or not, athletes now have
    the ability to solve for socio-economic issues, stay in school
    longer to further their academic careers, locate the best
    possible competitive situations athletically, and be a more
    functional contributor to society when they leave their
    respective campuses.
        Finally, as TV viewership continues to break records each
    weekend in the college football season this year and this past
    spring with March Madness in basketball, the marketplace for
    athletes to maximize their value has never been stronger.
        The NIL landscape continues to experience the inevitable
    growing pains of any free-market model, but the overall health
    of college athletics is strong. The TCA members feel those in
    this panel today and other important stakeholders share the
    expertise and passion, along with Congress, to work together
    for long-term sustainability and growth of college athletics.
        If need is the mother of all innovation, collectives were
    born from the need for student-athletes to have a stable,
    secure, and trusted entity representing their interests.
    Student-athletes trust our collectives, and this has caused
    some tension at times between our affiliate institutions,
    collegiate conferences, and the NCAA.
        But we are comfortable in the discomfort, because at the
    end of the day, our singular focus is on the student-athletes
    who would otherwise be forced to navigate this new and
    constantly evolving environment on their own.
        We root for and work with every student-athlete that
    chooses to work with us, not just the superstar athletes. While
    no one would be surprised that the majority of the student-
    athletes and work originate around football and men's
    basketball, our efforts have particularly benefited women and
    non-revenue sports. In fact, there was a 20 percent increase in
    women's NIL deals from 2021 to 2022, and we expect an even
    larger increase at the end of 2023.
        All this leads me to talk about what we, as collectives,
    stand for. We stand for creating opportunities for athletes to
    match with national and local sponsors, nonprofits, and
    charities, while creating avenues to interact with their fan
    bases. We are independent businesses, separate from
    universities and the athletic departments, and feel our
    student-athletes are served best by that independence.
        We provide resources and tools to help our student-athletes
    not only monetize their value but prepare for their future
    professions and careers. We provide best practices and
    standards to keep the bad actors out of the marketplace and
    create sustainability in the model. We provide transparency and
    disclosure to our university partners to remain compliant with
    State and NCAA rules and regulations.
        And, finally and most importantly, we are committed to
    diversity and inclusion in sourcing NIL opportunities for all
    athletes, regardless of the sport they play.
        Additionally, I thought it'd be helpful to elaborate on
    what we as collectives are not. We are not owned, nor are we
    agents. We are not financial advisors to the athletes we serve.
    That being said, most of our collectives provide financial
    literacy and tax planning and assistance with any financial
    questions that come their way.
        We do not participate in the recruiting process and desire
    to not--to only work with athletes once they have decided to
    attend our school. That is best left to coaches and athletic
    departments, under the strict watch of the NCAA.
        We are not rogue organizations run by out-of-control
    boosters and donors. Most collectives operate as full-time
    businesses with infrastructures, staff, transparency with our
    universities and our constituents. I thank you for your time
    and look forward to answering any and all your questions.
        [The prepared statement of Mr. Jones appears as a
    submission for the record.]
        Senator Blumenthal. Thanks, Mr. Jones. Ms. Bodensteiner?

    STATEMENT OF JILL BODENSTEINER, VICE PRESIDENT AND DIRECTOR OF
          ATHLETICS, SAINT JOSEPH'S UNIVERSITY, PHILADELPHIA,
                              PENNSYLVANIA

        Ms. Bodensteiner. Senator Blumenthal, Ranking Member
    Graham, and distinguished Members of the Committee, thank you
    for the opportunity to testify here today.
        I am especially appreciative of the invitation because I
    fear that the voice of institutions like St. Joe's has been
    lost in the public narrative. As you know, college athletics is
    extraordinarily diverse. The reality is, at a Division I school
    like St. Joe's, college athletics is actually working quite
    well.
        Before we consider starting over and transitioning all
    student-athletes across the country to employee status based
    largely on the issues facing one sport, I'd like to tell you a
    little bit more about life at St. Joe's.
        We have 478 student-athletes, which equates to 10 percent
    of our student body. We offer 20 sports. Football is not one of
    them. We have an incredible departmental culture that is
    consistent with our Jesuit mission: holistic development of our
    student-athletes. Our student-athletes go to class, and they
    select majors which they're passionate about.
        More than half of our student-athletes participate in
    sports that aren't bound to a regular season conference
    schedule, meaning that they rarely travel overnight and miss
    class.
        Our student-athletes outperform our non-student-athletes in
    GPA, retention rates, and graduation rates. We have many
    student-athletes who are former Olympians, professional
    athletes, Hall of Fame coaches, but most of our athletes go on
    to very successful careers outside of sport.
        Last year, just 3.9 percent of our undergraduate student-
    athletes transferred. Our annual expense budget is just over
    $20 million, which includes almost half of that which goes
    toward student financial aid. As you know, many Power Five
    institutions have budgets 10 times as large as ours.
        Our revenue, while growing, does not equal our expenses. In
    fact, the university subsidizes our athletic department to the
    tune of 80 percent per year. So, why does the university make
    this investment? Primarily because athletes benefit and are
    enriched from the experiences they gain from being a student-
    athlete, and it prepares them to be the leaders of tomorrow.
        Division I athletics also benefits the entire university by
    creating a more vibrant campus experience and providing
    national exposure.
        At St. Joe's, we're not waiting for an NCAA rule to tell us
    to protect the health and safety of our student-athletes. We do
    so because it's the right thing to do and it's fundamental to
    who we are.
        We employ dozens of individuals whose sole job is to
    support the physical and mental well-being of our student-
    athletes and their academic success. Finally, outside of team
    travel, our number one operating expense is student-athlete
    insurance premiums and medical expenses.
        I hope that you'll agree that athletics is working quite
    well for student-athletes in institutions like St. Joe's. In my
    opinion, the primary crisis facing college athletics is the
    threat of our student-athletes becoming employees.
        I practiced labor and employment law for 15 years before
    getting into this line of work. I do not believe employment
    status is the answer, and nor do our student-athletes. They
    don't want to have to apply for posted positions, when what
    they're really going for is an education. They don't want to go
    through the State work comp system for their injuries. They
    don't want to punch a time clock, worried about what might be
    compensable time under the FLSA.
        If our student-athletes are deemed employees, we will
    transition their financial aid to wages in order to stay
    competitive. The taxation differences between wages and tuition
    are extreme and not in the favor of our student-athletes. Our
    51 international student-athletes want to compete, and they
    would not be able to do so as employees, due to their F-1
    student status.
        For these reasons and many more, I am passionate about the
    granting of special status to student-athletes that would
    confirm that they are not employees of their respective
    institutions.
        On the other hand, we desperately need reform when it comes
    to NIL. Like most athletic directors, I've always been
    supportive of student-athlete NIL. The legitimate endorsement
    deals like those obtained by Ms. Thomas are awesome, especially
    for women, who have limited opportunities in professional
    sports and whose value peaks during their college years.
        Unfortunately, the current NIL situation is untenable for
    three reasons.
        Number one, NIL collectives are engaged in bidding wars for
    the attendance and retention of student-athletes.
        Number two, under current rules, Title IX does not apply to
    collectives, resulting in a disproportionate percentage of
    collective dollars going to male athletes.
        And, number three, the patchwork of conflicting State laws
    governing NIL are confusing to everyone, especially the
    student-athletes, and create a profoundly unequal playing
    field.
        In sum, thank you for your attention today, and thank you
    especially for hearing the voice of the non-Power Five schools
    like St. Joe's and beyond.
        [The prepared statement of Ms. Bodensteiner appears as a
    submission for the record.]
        Senator Blumenthal. Thank you very, very much, Ms.
    Bodensteiner. And we'll now turn to Mr. Swarbrick, of your alma
    mater, Notre Dame.

     STATEMENT OF JACK SWARBRICK, VICE PRESIDENT AND JAMES E. ROHR
     DIRECTOR OF ATHLETICS, UNIVERSITY OF NOTRE DAME, SOUTH BEND,
                                INDIANA

        Mr. Swarbrick. Thank you very much, Chairman Blumenthal,
    Ranking Member Graham, and Members of the Committee, both for
    the invitation to be with you today but also for your interest
    in this important topic. Chairman Blumenthal, the University of
    Notre Dame shares both your sense of urgency and your belief in
    need for reform.
        I'm on the final leg of a 40-year journey to support youth
    Olympic and collegiate athletes. It's been the privilege of a
    lifetime because it's allowed me to assist, on a firsthand
    basis, remarkable young people like Ms. Thomas, for whom sport
    is a root to education, to leadership development, and to
    brighter futures.
        College athletics represents the most compelling example of
    that for me. It's a uniquely American asset that has enabled
    education for first-generation Americans, made our colleges and
    universities more diverse places, contributed to the very
    fabric of the university community, and sustained and supported
    our Olympic movement in this country.
        But that unique asset must evolve if it is going to
    continue to deliver those sorts of benefits. That we at Notre
    Dame understood that was evident in 2015 when President Jenkins
    became the first university president in the country, in an op-
    ed piece, to call on the granting of rights for name, image,
    and likeness for all student-athletes.
        More recently, in an op-ed piece, Father Jenkins also
    demonstrated our support for a medical trust fund and for
    graduation guarantees to student-athletes.
        The common thread in that view at the University of Notre
    Dame is normalizing the experience of student-athletes against
    that of students who are not athletes. That was the basis of
    our opinion on name, image, likeness, and ideas. If every other
    student at our campus had that right, why shouldn't student-
    athletes?
        Similarly, where there is a difference based on athletic
    participation, in this case the risk of injury in contact
    sports or the potential to leave early to pursue a professional
    opportunity, then a distinction's appropriate, and that's why
    we supported both the medical trust fund and the graduation
    guarantee. We recognize that that reform must continue, and
    there's a necessary role for Congress to play in it, but it can
    be limited in scope.
        We, the members of the NCAA, must accept the responsibility
    to do more. We support fully President Baker's efforts to
    reform name, image, likeness, and ideas to provide the medical
    and graduation protections he articulated, and we must do more
    to help ensure that the opportunity to transfer does not
    undermine the opportunity to gain an education in our colleges
    and universities.
        But there are three areas in which we do need your help.
        The first has been referred to by several people here, and
    that is to make sure to retain the student-athlete status as
    students. That status is being attacked administratively, in
    litigation that's ongoing, and in State legislation. It is
    central to our model that our student-athletes be students and
    not employees, for many of the reasons Ms. Bodensteiner
    articulated.
        But most importantly, our student-athletes don't want a
    change in status. They come to Notre Dame to be students, to
    have the experience of students: living in dorms, going to the
    same classes, and pursuing the same majors. The risk of
    changing that model has many faces, but the one that concerns
    me the most is the risk to our Olympic sports and our female
    sports in colleges and universities. It will create a pressure
    to separate the sports, and with that separation comes a
    challenge to the funding of our Olympic sports.
        We also need help in preempting the myriad of State laws
    which set different standards for college athletics. College
    athletics is the quintessential example of interstate commerce.
    We have more of our contests outside the State of Indiana than
    in it.
        And, finally, we need a way to satisfy the student-
    athletes' interest in competitive equity. They want the
    opportunity to participate and win. They want to know there's
    an even playing field.
        We have to find a way to deliver that to them. That can
    come either by empowering the NCAA in limited areas to enable
    competitive equity or to develop a process by which we can
    agree with our student-athletes on what those rules and
    regulations should be. Our student-athletes deserve the
    competitive equity that we need to deliver to them. Thank you
    very much.
        [The prepared statement of Mr. Swarbrick appears as a
    submission for the record.]
        Senator Blumenthal. Thank you very, very much, Mr.
    Swarbrick. I thank you, all, for this really excellent
    testimony.
        We're going to have questions now from Committee Members.
    We'll have 5-minute rounds. I'll begin and then turn to the
    Ranking Member, and then we'll go in the order of appearance.
        What I hear here is a really strong endorsement of college
    athletics as a unifying force for our communities, and Senator
    Graham mentioned that college athletics is a religion in South
    Carolina.
        I don't know whether it is in Connecticut, but we celebrate
    victory in Connecticut. As you know, UConn Huskies men's team
    won their fifth championship.
        [Laughter.]
        Senator Blumenthal. Our Quinnipiac hockey team was
    victorious, as well, and we had parades, literally, through the
    streets of Hartford when it happened.
        So, I think you've all highlighted the unique unifying
    force that college athletics plays and the opportunities it
    affords to students and the unique opportunity that we have--
    and the need to do it now--for reform.
        I hear also strong reservations, indeed opposition to
    classifying athletes as employees. I hear a general feeling
    that the reform very likely should go beyond just strictly NIL.
        And what I hear, very encouragingly, is that some of your
    colleges--St. Joseph's and Notre Dame--most impressively are
    already embarking on many of the reforms that Senators Booker
    and Moran and I have proposed.
        But we need to avoid a race to the bottom in name, image,
    and likeness, a bidding war among colleges that often tempt
    college athletes with unscrupulous deals or agents and put
    colleges at the mercy of an unequal playing field.
        What I'd like to do is now focus on the reforms that may
    avoid the need for even that employee status that seems so
    alluring to many who proposed reforms. I'd like to ask all of
    you, and in the interest of time, I'm going to put it to you
    collectively. Would any of you oppose the creation of a medical
    trust fund to cover health care for student-athletes' long-term
    injuries? If you would oppose it, raise your hand, and I'll
    call on you.
        Nobody opposes it, the record should show.
        Would you oppose guaranteeing the scholarships of student-
    athletes that suffer career-ending injury or who are cut from a
    team? If you oppose it, please raise your hand.
        Again, the record should show no one here opposes it.
        Would you oppose setting enforceable health, safety
    standards to protect college athletes from serious injury,
    mistreatment, abuse, and death?
        Again, no one opposes it.
        And, finally, would you oppose a requirement for at least
    high-revenue schools to support the insurance costs and out-of-
    pocket medical expenses of student-athletes?
        No opposition. I think your views on this issue are
    profoundly important and show that we need to think beyond just
    NIL standards.
        I am struck, and this issue has been raised, by the
    difference, often, in treatment of women athletes. Female
    athletes, under the present system, apparently earn
    approximately $900 per NIL deal, as compared to the $3,000,
    which is the average for male athletes, as reported by the NIL
    platform, Opendorse. It seems to me that this area is one where
    reform is necessary, and I'd like to ask Ms. Thomas and Ms.
    Bodensteiner for your views on this topic.
        Ms. Thomas. Can you first repeat the question for me,
    please?
        Senator Blumenthal. The disparate treatment of men and
    women in college sports. Do you see it as an issue, and how
    pressing?
        Ms. Thomas. Yes, I do see it as an issue. Me, as a female
    athlete, I feel like I personally have to do a lot more,
    especially in the NIL space, to receive what I feel like I
    deserve.
        Senator Blumenthal. Ms. Bodensteiner?
        Ms. Bodensteiner. Thank you for the question, Senator. And
    just to bring a little life to that, right now at St. Joe's,
    you know, male basketball student-athletes are, I wouldn't say
    demanding, but asking what the collective will do for them.
        That is not happening in any of our women's sports, and I
    think it's absolutely essential that we find a way to ensure
    that male and female athletes have equal opportunity to earn
    NIL money.
        Senator Blumenthal. Thank you. My time has expired, so I'm
    going to turn to Senator Graham. I have a lot more questions,
    but we'll have a second round, I hope.
        Senator Graham. Thanks, Senator Blumenthal. So, if Congress
    does nothing, where does this thing go, Mr. Swarbrick?
        Mr. Swarbrick. Well, I think we'll wind up with a series of
    rulings that declare students as employees subject to the FLSA
    rules, or other rules and regulations, but it won't happen
    uniformly. It'll happen serially and create an unsustainable
    difference from State to State.
        We'll have a patchwork of State legislation that will also
    create differences which are unsustainable. That, for me, is--
    are the things that are most important to avoid at the moment,
    while we continue the reforms that Senator Blumenthal
    articulated.
        Senator Graham. Governor Baker, do you agree with that?
    Where do you see this thing going if we do nothing?
        Mr. Baker. I would say, first of all, that I think the--
    while I appreciate Walker Jones' optimism about men and women
    when it comes to NIL participation, the numbers are so--well,
    first of all, there are no publicly available numbers. Okay?
        So, the first thing we really need there, more than
    anything, is some form of transparency around what people are
    actually getting. There are reporters who cover college sports
    who won't write about NIL, because they don't believe anything
    anybody tells them. That's one of the----
        Senator Graham. Well, just hold on a second. Mr. Jones,
    who's the highest paid NIL person in college football?
        Mr. Jones. Well, again, a lot of that is some urban legend.
        Senator Graham. I'm not asking about urban legend.
        Mr. Jones. Well----
        Senator Graham. You're in this business. You should know.
    Tell me.
        Mr. Jones. Well, again, probably the highest grossing is a
    gymnast, actually, Olivia Dunne from LSU.
        Senator Graham. Okay. How much does she make?
        Mr. Jones. Again, she's making into the seven figures. I
    don't know the exact figure, but she's well into the seven
    figures in her endorsements.
        Senator Graham. Mr. Petitti, is that--Tony? Can I just call
    you Tony?
        Mr. Petitti. That's fine, Senator. Thank you.
        Senator Graham. Okay. Where does this thing go if we just
    sit on the sidelines?
        Mr. Petitti. I agree, what's been said. I think where we're
    going to end up is we're going to be having a system that's
    been dictated by a myriad of State laws, by the results of
    litigation, and by the results of employment action. It's
    completely unmanaged change. I think the results are
    unpredictable, and I think the----
        Senator Graham. Let me give you my concern.
        Mr. Petitti. Yes, Senator.
        Senator Graham. Between the portal and the poaching of
    players, I think you'll have chaos. I mean, you've got the
    University of Utah offering everybody who'll play, a truck. So,
    we're headed down the road, here, of a bidding war. Do you
    agree with that, Tony?
        Mr. Petitti. I do. I think our coaches would echo the same
    sentiment across multiple sports, in terms of just the money
    entering the system. It's called NIL, but it's not really NIL.
    So, we say that collectives are responsible for the
    overwhelming amount of money in the system. That money is not
    really true NIL deals right now. So, I feel you are correct,
    Senator.
        Senator Graham. So, here's my concern to the Committee--is
    that, you know, college athletics needs to be available to men
    and women at every level. Non-generating--Ms. Thomas, does the
    gymnastics team make money for the University of Florida, or do
    you know?
        Ms. Thomas. I'm not sure.
        Senator Graham. Okay. Well, you have done--you've got a lot
    to be proud of. But there are a lot of programs out there that
    don't make money. Is that true, Ms. Bodensteiner?
        Ms. Bodensteiner. That is correct.
        Senator Graham. If it's all about money, they're going to
    be left behind.
        Division II schools. If you made Division II--if you made
    people employees, Governor Baker, what would happen to Division
    II schools?
        Mr. Baker. I think it's pretty clear that Division II and
    Division III schools would get out of the interscholastic
    collegiate sports business and probably----
        Senator Graham. And, now, just----
        Mr. Baker [continuing]. Turn most of their stuff into----
        Senator Graham [continuing]. Listen to what he said.
        Mr. Baker [continuing]. Club sports. I mean, the typical--
    --
        Senator Graham. It's going to happen. Right? If you make
    these people employees, they can't afford it.
        Mr. Baker. You tax everything, and you completely change
    the model. And it's sort of a 4x increase in what the costs
    would be, if--I mean, the typical DII school has an athletic
    budget of 5 or $6 million. I mean, that's the way you should
    start--and DIII is more or less the same.
        It's 95 percent of the schools lose money on sports.
    Ninety-five. Right? Five percent of them have serious budgets
    with serious revenue and a concern about employment but a
    willingness to do a lot more around what they believe they
    should be doing for student-athletes.
        But you're right, Senator. The impact on DII and DIII--and,
    by the way, a lot of DI schools would be--and their athletes,
    student-athletes, would be profound.
        Senator Graham. Seems to me we want to avoid that. To make,
    you know, college sports available to a lot of people at
    different levels--that should be one of our goals. Do you all
    agree with that?
        Everybody nods.
        So, Mr. Chairman, let's try to find a way, Senator
    Blumenthal, to deal with the money problem, NIL, make sure that
    people are taken care of as athletes and it's not just the
    Wild, Wild West out there.
        But, final comment, if this Committee and the Commerce
    Committee doesn't act in about a year, this thing is going to
    be an absolute mess, and you're going to destroy college
    athletics as we know it. Thanks.
        Senator Blumenthal. Thanks, Senator Graham. I think Wild
    West is exactly the right term to characterize where we're
    going. Senator Whitehouse.
        Senator Whitehouse. Thanks. Thank you, Chairman, for
    holding this. We've got so many witnesses here that it's going
    to be hard to ask a question and get through all seven, let
    alone ask a bunch of questions and get through all seven. So,
    what I think I'll do is mention three concerns that I have that
    you all are welcome to respond to in writing. We take questions
    for the record, here, and your answers become a part of the
    record of the proceedings.
        So, the first concern is helping student-athletes avoid
    unfair contracts where they get, like, locked in for too long
    or get locked into contracts that have huge, you know,
    management and other fees, so forth. Who's in charge of
    protecting student-athletes when there's so much pressure and
    money involved, and they're not exactly experts in the art of
    contract negotiations? So, that's one.
        Two is, the NIL will naturally take pretty good care of the
    star, high-value student-athletes. And the question is, when
    this flood of money opens up, how much should we be looking at
    the non-star teammates of the star student-athletes? How much
    should we be looking at the non-remunerative teams, in addition
    to the teams that make enormous amounts of money? And what do
    we do about schools that don't field either remunerative teams
    or star athletes? Do they just get left behind, or should there
    be a fund that tries to reach into all of those areas? So,
    that's two.
        And the third is a pretty obvious piece, which is that
    there are lots of injuries that take place during student
    athletics, and how we manage those injuries out into the
    future--it would seem to me that if loads of money is flooding
    in, one good way to--one good thing to have it flood into would
    be a fund that can make sure that athletes get their health
    care covered for injuries that are traced back to their
    collegiate sports careers, even if the manifestation comes
    later.
        We do this with veterans all the time. You have an exposure
    during your service in a foreign country, 20 years later,
    something manifests, you look back, and the VA provides the
    coverage. Something along those lines.
        Those are the thoughts that come to mind for me. And if you
    have any helpful advice on that, I'd be grateful to have each
    of you take a moment to share your thoughts in writing on those
    three. And with that, Chairman, thank you very much.
        Senator Blumenthal. Thanks, Senator Whitehouse. Senator
    Grassley.
        Senator Grassley. Yes. Well, thank you, all, for coming.
    You're right in the middle of a lot of things that go on in the
    fall of the year with this university sports and everything.
        Anybody that wants to respond to this--because it's a
    concern of mine--if there is no Federal preemption of State NIL
    laws, do you believe that there will be any Title IX concerns?
        And, if there is a Federal NIL proposal, what do you
    propose Congress do to mitigate Title IX concerns, if you think
    that there should be concerns raised? I don't expect all of you
    to answer that, but if any of you want to dig into that, I'd
    appreciate hearing your opinion.
        Mr. Huma. I'd like to give a little perspective here, I
    think, on--you know, Title IX is Federal law, and it's
    enforceable. You know, there are some--you know, the
    collective, it's kind of difficult to see the degree to which
    they are collaborating with the schools or separate from
    schools or anywhere in between.
        And, you know, collectives acting as an arm of the school,
    sharing essential services--I think this was addressed in the
    draft Senators Booker, Blumenthal, and Moran--you know, there
    has to be kind of a clear line. Is this an extension of the
    school? And if it is, Title IX should apply. If not, then it's
    just like Nike or some other third party out there.
        And as much as we all--you know, the beginning of NIL, it
    was all about free-market opportunities for college athletes,
    the same ones that the coaches get, the pros get, every
    American citizen gets. With the free market, sometimes the free
    market isn't very equitable in all walks of life.
        If you look at advertisers, you know, there's been
    complaints from different groups that advertisers aren't
    including diversity in various areas, but you don't have
    Congress trying to come in and define things. You know, the
    free market's one thing. We advocate on our organization, when
    it comes to direct pay, you know, Title IX is applicable. Free
    market's free market.
        I think there was--there's issues being raised about
    whether or not male athletes get more than female athletes, and
    that is a reflection, in part, again--aside from the idea that
    some of these collectives are actually acting as an extension
    of the school, which should apply--Title IX would apply. You
    know, really, it's a reflection of society. There's inequitable
    treatment amongst various subsets of groups in the free market.
    I think that's what we're seeing here.
        The other is to point out that this industry, no secret,
    $17 billion primarily generated football and basketball
    players, sports that are predominantly Black. The one area
    where they might have freedom, equal freedoms, is in NIL. The
    degree to which any of this money is flowing more toward
    football and basketball players because of market interests--
    that's our economic system, free market, capitalism.
        When it comes to third parties, that's the whole vein.
    That's what--when we advocated from California, the very first
    NIL State, and every State in between, that's clearly
    understood. I think there's a bit of a blur here when we're
    talking about third-party NIL versus things that the school
    gives directly.
        Again, if a collective is an extension of the school, then
    it absolutely should be--Title IX should apply. But Title IX's
    the law. It's enforceable now. And complaints should go to the
    Department of Education Office for Civil Rights in the
    appropriate areas, lawsuits.
        But I don't know that it's even appropriate for Congress to
    start dictating what the free market should look like, only for
    college athletes, which may so happen to take money out of
    Black athletes' pockets in the first--after the first couple
    years of them finally getting equal treatment. I think that
    would be inappropriate and misguided.
        Senator Grassley. I've still got a minute left. Anybody
    else want----
        Mr. Jones. Yes, sir. Senator Grassley, I'd like to respond
    to that, as well. And just speaking to Title IX from a
    collective standpoint, you know, what we're seeing--remember,
    we're just now into year three of this marketplace, so it's
    still evolving. We're still adjusting.
        But I can tell you, on the ground level, from a trend
    standpoint, we are seeing a correction on those revenue sports,
    your football, men's basketball, and some self-governance
    that's taking place with the way we're contracting with the
    student-athletes.
        But the inverse is happening for our non-revenue and
    women's sports. We are seeing more and more deals that are
    asking for female involvement. I know, speaking from the
    University of Mississippi's standpoint, we've tripled our
    female roster of NIL from last year to this year. Our first
    team-wide deal at Ole Miss was our women's basketball team.
    Some of the highest earners in NIL, as I told Senator Graham,
    are female athletes.
        Now, there's not as many of them, but what I would just
    encourage everybody, that whether Title IX applies to us from a
    collective standpoint or not, it would not change how we
    operate. We are operating to have a very diverse and inclusive
    athlete roster because at the end of the day, that's what
    brands want. And that creates more value, when we have brand
    campaigns. And we are getting requests from outside brands more
    for female student-athletes.
        So, that trend is developing. Is it acceptable, to this
    point? Not acceptable, but it is moving in the right direction.
    So, while your high-revenue sports are kind of self-governing
    and correcting themselves, your non-revenue and female sports
    are seeing a boost, as the figures are showing us and what
    we're seeing at the ground level.
        Senator Grassley. Mr. Chairman, I'll put the rest of my
    questions for answer in writing.
        Senator Blumenthal. Thank you, Senator Grassley. You're
    welcome to do so. Thank you. Senator Coons.
        Senator Coons. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Swarbrick, I
    read with great interest your editorial, along with Father
    Jenkins', and just wanted to lift up your focus on college
    athletics as part of a route to education, to leadership, and
    to opportunity. Your focus on and your support for a medical
    trust fund and graduation guarantees, I thought, was admirable.
        I want to focus in on one area, which is whether or not
    student-athletes should be considered employees. This is
    currently being examined in the Third Circuit and the NLRB, and
    that sparked fierce opposition from your institution, as well
    as Ms. Bodenstei-ner's institution, as well as the University
    of Delaware, in my home State.
        Why does Notre Dame oppose classifying student-athletes as
    employees, and what do you think the harmful impact would be on
    athletics across the University of Notre Dame and then across,
    more broadly, institutions of all sizes, if that were to
    happen?
        Mr. Swarbrick. What defines the unique American model of
    intercollegiate athletics--and, to be clear, it doesn't exist
    anywhere else--it's a club system everywhere else in the
    world--is the integration into the educational institution. It
    is the opportunity to have all of the same rights and
    privileges as any other student.
        And if you put them in a separate category, with all the
    consequences that have been articulated here, that goes away
    immediately, and we no longer have the model that we understand
    as intercollegiate athletics today and fundamentally separates
    it from the educational value.
        As President Baker's association points out regularly, the
    vast, vast majority of student-athletes are not going on to
    continue their sport after they leave college. It is the
    education which is the primary value of their experience. We
    have to protect that. We have to protect their ability to be
    admitted under the same standards, to be educated under the
    same standards, and to learn under the same standards. If you
    take that away, you do enormous damage to those--to those
    current students.
        Senator Coons. I know this is a period of huge change in
    college athletics, and as the Chair and Ranking Member have
    said, we need to act. And, Mr. Swarbrick, thank you for your
    testimony, and Go Irish.
        Ms. Bodensteiner, if I might, are there some factors that
    are applicable across institutions of all sizes? You are
    athletic director at a school with a different profile than
    maybe a Big Ten university or even the University of Notre
    Dame. Are there some specific factors that are key to your
    institution and others like it in the greater Philadelphia
    area, and across our country, that Congress should keep in mind
    as we attempt to draft NIL legislation that would preempt State
    legislation and apply to all the universities in America?
        Ms. Bodensteiner. I appreciate your question very much,
    Senator. Thank you. I tend to agree with colleagues at Power
    Five and other institutions when it comes to NIL. I think our
    basketball coaches are as disappointed in what has happened in
    the market than anybody in the country.
        And so, you know, on the employment front I do think we
    have some unique challenges if student-athletes were to be
    deemed employees, and really it's the expense, whether through
    taxation--I mean, our, you know, human resources department is
    overwhelmed, as we are, with two mergers happening, and to give
    them 487 additional employees to process, many of whom are, you
    know, leaving on an annual basis--again, the taxation issues.
        I mean, for an institution like us--and, again, I can't
    stress enough that we are spending $20 million and bringing in
    $4 million in revenue for athletics--that this would just be an
    untenable situation, which, again, I worry about the ability
    for us to continue fielding all 20 of our sports.
        Senator Coons. Understood. Mr. Baker, if I might, just a
    closing question. Across the different legislative proposals
    that are in front of us, and across the wide array of State
    laws, what do you think are the most critical provisions for us
    to include in legislation, moving forward?
        Mr. Baker. Well, I would certainly support the State
    preemption issue, because there--I mean, if you think about
    this just at a conference level, most conferences have multiple
    States.
        And if you're trying to create anything that looks like a
    level playing field, and to get back to Trinity Thomas' comment
    about the fact that--I thought she said it well. There should
    be one set of rules for all athletes across all sports at all
    schools. I think that's exactly right.
        I think the employment question is obviously on everybody's
    mind, and I'm sure there are things schools--especially those
    that can do it, which would be the 5 percent I talked about
    before--who would do far more, if they felt like they could do
    it in an environment where their student-athletes were still
    students.
        I think the issue around safe harbor, limited liability,
    whatever it is you want to call it, I get the fact that's a
    really big issue, and what I would say to Congress is, if you
    want--if you want to create some sort of framework around that,
    and guardrails, that's fine.
        But I do worry that we're going to head down a road where
    people are going to start challenging whether or not we should
    have, you know, minimum academic standards for people to be
    eligible to play. Are people going to change the rules around?
        Let's suppose we pursue the rule that I was talking about
    earlier, where we want to create some transparency around NIL,
    because, you know, with all due respect to you, Walker, nobody
    knows what's going on, and everything is sort of a guess and a
    rumor.
        So, when people say we're doing much better when it comes
    to women student-athletes and NIL, I don't know if that's true
    or not, and neither does anybody else.
        And I think we need to give the student-athletes, frankly,
    a lot more visibility into what the price signals are, so that
    they can make the best decision for them and their families.
    Under the current system, they're in a ``Trust us'' game with
    practically everybody.
        And Trinity, I give you enormous credit for what you've
    managed to do in that kind of an environment, but there are a
    lot of student-athletes for whom that's going to be very
    challenging.
        And I think the final one would be the whole conversation
    that we've already had about trying to figure out sort of the
    best way to deal with some of the issues around health and
    safety, because national standards on that I think we can all
    support.
        Senator Coons. Thank you for that input. I do think
    transparency, fairness, and preserving the educational mission
    that is at the core of higher education are key parts, as we
    work together to move forward. Thank you, to all the witnesses.
    Thank you, Mr. Chair.
        Senator Blumenthal. Thanks, Senator Coons. Senator Kennedy.
        Senator Kennedy. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It's clear to me,
    from listening today, that we still have a lot of work left to
    do.
        I want to start with trying to look at this issue from
    30,000 feet. For many years now, college athletics has
    generated enormous revenues. I'm not saying that's a bad thing.
    That's a good thing.
        The Supreme Court comes along in, what, the Alston case--is
    that right--in 2021 and changes where that money's going.
        Before, that money was going to TV stations and
    universities and coaches and others--I guess construction
    companies, if we're building them new stadiums.
        And then, after the Supreme Court decides the Alston case
    in 2021, the kids start getting paid, and all hell breaks
    loose.
        I mean, is that what is going on here? The fact that the
    money is being redistributed, and that's going to cause the
    world to spin off its axis? Because the kids are getting a
    share of the dough? Governor?
        Mr. Baker. What I would say, Senator, in response to the
    Alston decision is, there is flexibility for schools that can
    afford to make Alston payments to do so, and they can make
    Alston payments in particular sports, as long as they manage to
    satisfy the Title IX requirements. And they can choose what
    level they want to support, and they----
        Senator Kennedy. Well, I understand that, Governor----
        Mr. Baker [continuing]. Can also choose to play or not.
        Senator Kennedy [continuing]. But you're getting down into
    the weeds. And I'm not saying that's a bad thing. We're----
        Mr. Baker. Okay.
        Senator Kennedy [continuing]. Going to have to get in the
    weeds. But that's what this--before the Alston case, everything
    was just fine. And then the Alston case is handed down, and the
    kids start getting some of the money, not the adults. The
    adults have got to share. And all of a sudden, the world's on
    fire. What am I missing here?
        Mr. Baker. For the record, I support the Alston stuff. I
    also support NIL. I just would like to see a little more
    transparency and support for information to make it easier for
    student-athletes to succeed in this space.
        Senator Kennedy. Well, let me make this suggestion to you,
    and I want to hear from the rest of the panel. I would strongly
    encourage you and your colleagues to try to get together and
    come up with a new system for us to consider that looks like
    somebody designed it on purpose.
        You may regret asking Congress to intervene here. All of a
    sudden, you're going to be micromanaged. Now, I'm not saying we
    shouldn't, and my colleagues have raised excellent points, and
    it sounds to me like we do have a bit of a--I don't know, a
    Wild, Wild West, as Chairman Blumenthal described it. But I'd
    be real careful before you invite Congress in to start
    micromanaging your business.
        Let me go back to the original question. Any of you, what
    am I missing about this? Isn't this fight over the fact that
    the kids are now getting some of the money that the adults were
    getting before? Yes, sir?
        Mr. Huma. Absolutely. Absolutely. The injustice that has
    been inflicted on college athletes seemed to be fine for the
    industry until we won some court rulings and State legislatures
    started passing laws. Essentially, the industry [microphone
    feedback] had a monopoly on college athletes' NIL value. They
    owned every penny. Nike wants to slap a logo on a kid, got to
    pay the school. The kid can't get a penny. That's what this is
    about.
        They even--many of the schools even said, hey, if that
    happens, we're going to lose money. Well, that means you've
    been stealing money from these kids, if it's against, like, the
    Supreme Court--if it violates antitrust law. That's the
    problem.
        You know, the opposition--even employment status. All this
    is about, we don't want to pay them fairly. You know, NIL--just
    so you know, this is not equitable economic situation here.
    That's like saying, go get another job because we're not going
    to pay you for what you do here. You know, we're in a cap--you
    have a national price fix for a scholarship, no matter--and a
    lot of these schools [microphone feedback]--I don't know if
    that's me or not.
        Senator Kennedy. That's the NFL, man.
        Mr. Huma. Is it? So, and we can't treat every division as
    if it's the same. FBS schools masquerading as DIII schools,
    saying, there are no employees here. You know, at Notre Dame, I
    know they--I would imagine they have students in the bookstore
    as employees. It doesn't seem to harm their educational
    opportunity. There's no congressional hearings about that.
        We're talking about equal rights. And this industry is
    operating in an illegal fashion. It's breaking antitrust law,
    breaking labor laws, and now it's coming home, and players are
    getting, you know, avenues [microphone feedback] and leverage
    and pulling kind of pulling leverage, and here we are, saying
    the sky's going to fall, but----
        Senator Kennedy. I--I----
        Mr. Huma [continuing]. It's not the truth.
        Senator Kennedy. I agree with you. I don't mean to go over
    so much, Mr. Chairman. We are talking about rights here, but
    we're also talking about money. And it just seems to me that
    this controversy, in part, has been caused by a model of
    redistribution for that money.
        And I've got a lot of sympathy for kids, I have to tell
    you. The adults seem to be able to take care of themselves, but
    it's the kids that make all of this possible. Thank you, Mr.
    Chairman.
        Senator Blumenthal. Thanks, Senator Kennedy. I just want to
    make clear before I introduce the next Senator, who happens to
    be the co-author with me of the College Athletes Protection and
    Compensation Act, there's no effort here to micromanage
    anything.
        And I think that Mr. Huma makes an excellent point that
    even the limited benefits, so far, to college athletes that
    we've seen have come because of a fight, because of an effort
    on the part of advocates like Mr. Huma and others who are here,
    to treat athletes more fairly.
        And nobody's been a stronger advocate than Senator Booker.
    I'm pleased to call on him. He genuinely would've benefited
    from NIL, had it existed when he was playing football at
    Stanford.
        We often joke, I was a college swimmer, and there's no
    one--no way anybody would've offered me a contract to do
    anything in NIL, but he was a genuine star, and he's been a
    star----
        Senator Kennedy [continuing]. Well, Mr. Chairman----
        Senator Blumenthal [continuing]. On this issue.
        Senator Kennedy. Can I respond? And look, Richard, you make
    a very valid point, and I'm not denigrating anybody's efforts
    here. I'm just suggesting that we do need to be careful.
        Once Congress decides to get involved, it really gets
    involved. I don't want to have Congress in the business of
    trying to establish concussion protocols for each school,
    because that's where it can lead to. That's all I'm saying.
        Senator Blumenthal. Thanks for that point. Senator Booker.
        Senator Booker. Chairman, thank you very much. You've been
    an extraordinary partner and leader in this area, and I'm just
    grateful to have you involved.
        Senator Moran has been extraordinary, as has been a number
    of other Republican colleagues who I've worked with over the
    last, God, decade.
        I want to thank Maria Cantwell, as well, who's the
    Chairwoman of the Commerce Committee, who's just done an
    extraordinary job on these issues, as well.
        This is about, to the day, the 10-year anniversary of when
    I was elected to the United States Senate. And I came here to
    work on a lot of issues, but this was definitely one of them. I
    have these strange two thoughts about college sports.
        One is, it's one of the best parts of American culture. I
    literally would not be sitting here today if it wasn't for the
    opportunities that were afforded me as a football player in
    high school and college. It is one of the bright lights--at a
    time when America has so many forces dividing us--that unifies
    us in a way that I think is very special.
        The challenge I found 10 years ago is I--and the first
    Commerce Committee hearing on this, I was very angry, because I
    also knew the dark side of college sports and knew too many of
    my friends whose bodies were beaten and battered who were going
    in, in their own pocket, years later, to try to pay for spinal
    cord injuries or shoulders, knees.
        And, God forbid, I saw the challenges with CTE, guys who
    were coming out of ball who had head injuries, depression, and
    so many other symptoms that we now know are symptoms of CTE,
    but nobody there to help them or support them.
        More than this, I just couldn't understand how we could
    have a system that guys who spent over 80 hours, 70 hours, 60
    hours playing this sport, who didn't graduate on time, were
    going in their own pocket after their football career was over,
    just to pay for the last few credits that they had. I couldn't
    understand how low-income kids who got a chance to play ball
    didn't have the money to even, you know, get their parents to
    come see them play, while the jersey with their names on it
    were being sold in student bookstores for more money than one
    of their parents made in a full day's labor.
        And what frustrated me was, at that time, the NCAA was
    giving lip service to a lot of the changes but seemed to only
    move when they got embarrassed, whether it was being
    embarrassed like Shabazz Napier saying, ``I couldn't afford to
    eat,'' when he won the NCAA championship, or the embarrassment
    of showing the differential treatment of women versus men in
    NCAA tournaments.
        I am so glad that this group is here now, because the folks
    here before us have been extraordinary in their leadership.
        I cannot thank President Baker enough for being willing to
    work with me and my team, for his, what I think has been, very
    progressive leadership in bringing about change.
        Commissioner Petitti, you have been a great partner in
    trying to develop something that could be bipartisan and
    actually can work to put some common-sense guardrails.
        And Brother Huma, we've been working on this since you and
    I both had hair, and it is--I cannot tell you how grateful I am
    for your leadership and advocacy in fighting for what most
    people who watch sports think should be the norm, that the men
    and women who are contributing most of this $15 billion
    industry should, at the very least, have some basic standards
    for health, safety, and justice, when it comes to these issues.
        And so I'm grateful to be here with folks who are really
    constructive in trying to find a way, number one, to preserve
    college sports, which is now being threatened, in my opinion,
    by a lot of the Wild, Wild West which has been mentioned. And I
    think, Mr. Huma, you're correct. There is so much bipartisan
    place to land on this, while the controversial stuff we could
    leave aside, if we could just find a pathway forward in keeping
    athletes centered and first.
        So, I'm extraordinarily encouraged by the work of Senator
    Blumenthal, Senator Moran. The discussion document that we put
    out--the feedback has been so great. There is so much accord.
    We've got to move forward and, to Senator Kennedy's point, not
    to have any unintended consequences, to do it with a light
    touch but, again, protect college athletes.
        Just very quickly, I'd really like to turn to the one
    college athlete that's actually here. Ms. Thomas, it's
    extraordinary that you are here, and I can't thank you enough
    for being here. You are playing and have played at a level
    that's just great.
        I don't think folks understand the physical demands and the
    mental demands. You've seen very personally the challenges
    that--a lot of folks don't understand what athletes go through
    while trying to balance difficult academic schedules.
        And I guess I just would love, in the last seconds I have--
    why do you think it's so important that, whatever we do, we
    prioritize the health, safety, mental health, well-being of
    college athletes, teammates, and others? Can you just express
    the urgency of the moment?
        Ms. Thomas. Yes. Being a student-athlete is super
    difficult. Hours upon hours. Obviously, you're a student, too,
    and that's a lot already, and then you're putting on that--I
    mean, we practice. Every single day we're doing something,
    whether it's conditioning or practice or training or letting
    our trainers work on our bodies for us. It's a lot. And the
    traveling, on top of that, is a lot, and competing in our
    sport.
        So, everything outside of that, that's extra, needs to be
    so that it's taking care of us. I'm obviously not a student-
    athlete anymore, technically, but for all of my former
    teammates and all of the student-athletes that are going to
    come after me, I want the very best for them. I know how hard
    it is to be successful as a student-athlete, and we just need
    to make sure that we're doing the best for them.
        Senator Booker. Thank you. And again, Tony, Ramogi,
    Governor, I'm so grateful for the work we're doing. I really
    think we can get someplace for this.
        I just want to say, for the record, Notre Dame has been one
    of the best partners that we've had, extraordinary and
    honorable in the way you're doing it, and that's the only
    reason why, in this hearing, I am restraining from talking
    about my best career football game, when Notre Dame was ranked
    number one, and we went into South Bend, Indiana, and upset----
        [Laughter.]
        Senator Booker [continuing]. I think Sports Illustrated
    called it the greatest upset in all of college sports, that
    year----
        [Laughter.]
        Senator Booker [continuing]. All sports except for when
    Buster Douglas beat Mike Tyson. But I'm not going to talk about
    that at all, out of respect for your institution and gratitude
    for your partnership.
        Mr. Swarbrick. Thank you for your restraint.
        Senator Booker. Thank you very much.
        [Laughter.]
        Senator Blumenthal. You should listen to Senator Booker
    when he's unrestrained.
        [Laughter.]
        Senator Blumenthal. Thanks, Senator Booker, and thanks for
    all your work on this measure. And I second your thanks to
    Senator Moran as well as to Senator Cantwell and others on the
    Committee who have been very thoughtful on this issue. Senator
    Tillis.
        Senator Tillis. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, all,
    for being here.
        Governor Baker, I think probably a year or two from now,
    you're going to consider being a Republican Governor in a
    Democrat State one of the simpler jobs you've had. You've got a
    lot of work to get done.
        Mr. Baker. I already do, Senator.
        Senator Tillis. I had a question, and Mr. Huma, I want to
    make sure I heard this right. I think in your opening statement
    you said that the NCAA has no duty to protect college athletes.
    Could you, in about 30 seconds, explain to me why----
        Mr. Huma. Sure.
        Senator Tillis [continuing]. The basis for that?
        Mr. Huma. In the Derek Sheely v. NCAA lawsuit, where Derek
    Sheely was--he died during a football practice, and the family
    sued. The NCAA's legal defense and public defense is that the
    NCAA has no legal duty to protect college athletes, and it has
    kept that stance in every lawsuit in its defense.
        Senator Tillis. That said--I guess, Governor Baker, I'm
    going to ask you about that, but, I mean, a part of what we're
    talking about is that the universities themselves have the
    primary responsibility for the health and safety of the
    student. And it would seem to me that even if you want to set
    aside the humanitarian factors, that you want every athlete to
    be healthy, every day of the week, doing the best that they can
    do, to get the most people to watch that sport.
        It seems like there's an inherent obli--or, not an
    obligation--there's an economic driver behind trying to protect
    these people. So it's very difficult for me to have anybody,
    you know, viewed as you're running through a mill. It just
    doesn't make sense to me. You want the best athletes on the
    field every Saturday--and I'm a football fan, and basketball, I
    guess, every day of the week. It's harder to follow, for me.
    Too many of them.
        But, I mean, I just want to dispense with the notion that
    you would actually have somebody recruit a kid to St. Joseph's
    and not care about their health and well-being. It would seem
    like it'd be in the forefront. Am I correct, Ms. Bodensteiner?
        Ms. Bodensteiner. Yes, that was the comment--intent of my
    opening statement, to say we're not waiting around for an NCAA
    rule, nor do we feel like it's lacking. We do it for several
    reasons, already, proactively. And if something does happen,
    our insurance and coverage----
        Senator Tillis. I just don't get it.
        Ms. Bodensteiner [continuing]. Is rich.
        Senator Tillis. You want the stars on the field, because
    it's the stars that attract people to the games, and it's that
    attraction that generates revenue and creates the economic
    cycle.
        Ms. Thomas, first off, congratulations on your academic and
    athletic prowess. How many 10s did you say that you've--did, I
    think, the Chairman said you got over your career, athletic----
        Ms. Thomas. Twenty-eight.
        Senator Tillis. Twenty-eight. And I don't know if you're--
    if you're not comfortable, just say you're not comfortable with
    this. Can you tell me a little bit about the income that you're
    receiving from your NIL contracts right now?
        Ms. Thomas. I'm not comfortable answering that.
        Senator Tillis. Okay. Well, I think it's interesting. I'd
    like to learn more, and maybe you know. I've read reports
    about--when we're thinking about NIL, we're thinking about
    Olivia Dunne--Dunne, I'm sorry--a gymnast who I think her
    career high in the uneven bars was a 9.925. So, she's never
    gotten a 10, and she's one of the most highly compensated
    people in NIL right now.
        But I've also heard reports of people that are just making
    enough to where they can pay their college tuition, that
    they're finding ways, through NIL. They're athletes, they're
    student-athletes, but they're not the big names that are
    actually making revenue.
        Is that--did I--is that just anecdotal, or are we seeing
    some sense, Mr. Jones, that other people are finding this as a
    way to pay for their education, then move on to something other
    than the collegiate sport that attracted them?
        Mr. Jones. Yes, sir, Senator. I would tell you that, you
    know, one of the things that we're seeing at the ground level
    is athletes solving for socio-economic issues that are
    inevitable in their life: family-related issues, like it said,
    paying off a sibling's student debt----
        Senator Tillis. Yes.
        Mr. Jones [continuing]. Flying their parents to come watch
    them play. So, the athletes--which then also gives them the
    ability to stay in school longer and pursue their academic
    career.
        Senator Tillis. Well, I think--I--I think everybody here
    has stipulated that they support NIL. I mean, that, to me--
    anybody leaving this meeting thinking anybody's detracting from
    that I don't think's been paying attention.
        I do disagree with some of my colleagues who don't think--
    and I think I disagree with you, too, Mr. Jones, that we don't
    need rules of the road. I think it was Mr. Swarbrick that said
    this is the essence of interstate commerce. It was one of you,
    in your testimony. I thought it was you.
        But I guess in my remaining time, several States--we've
    implemented a patchwork. I think that we have to eliminate
    that. I think that we do have to create rules of the road.
        This is where it gets dangerous, because it means Congress
    has to get involved, to get it right. So, I guess the question
    I have, are there--is there a national model that we should be
    instructed by, or is there a given State or jurisdiction--and,
    Mr. Swarbrick, I'll let you answer this, if you have the
    information--that's done it particularly well or that we should
    be instructed by as we proceed down that path?
        Mr. Swarbrick. Unfortunately, Senator, I don't think there
    is an example to look to right now.
        Senator Tillis. So, they're all just bad examples?
        Mr. Swarbrick. Well, they're--it's been motivated by a bit
    of a race to the bottom for recruiting purposes. Right? And----
        Senator Tillis. Okay.
        Mr. Swarbrick [continuing]. So that's been the challenge.
    If there's one thing we could do that would address the Title
    IX issues and otherwise, would be try to get it where name,
    image, likeness, and ideas has to relate to name, image,
    likeness, and ideas.
        Senator Tillis. Mm-hmm.
        Mr. Swarbrick. If we could do that--the most well-known
    basketball player in the country right now is from Iowa, and
    she's a woman.
        When it's really about name, image, and likeness, you have
    an equity that's achieved, and it relates to the level of
    accomplishment and fame. In most pro teams, there's a handful
    of men or women that have marketing deals.
        But yet in college, everybody on the team has one. It's not
    a marketing deal. We need to get back to where they relate to
    name, image, likeness, and ideas.
        Mr. Jones. And, Senator, just to respond to that, we are
    for regulation. We're not asking that there not be
    transparency. We are already very transparent.
        Senator Tillis. But a national NIL?
        Mr. Jones. We're fine. If there's a national preemption on
    State statutes, we--we support that, as well.
        Senator Tillis. All right, I missed--I'm glad----
        Mr. Jones. We are----
        Senator Tillis. I'm glad you----
        Mr. Jones. We are for----
        Senator Tillis [continuing]. Clarified that.
        Mr. Jones [continuing]. That, and we are ready to work with
    any body that wants to regulate. The problem is, nobody is, and
    we're having to navigate it ourselves. But we support
    regulation and oversight.
        Senator Tillis. Well, thanks for clarifying. I think we
    have to do it. And, folks, there are a lot of things, the
    employment status--Ms. Bodensteiner, I wasn't going to put you
    in that position.
        If they become employment status, you're going to have a
    skeleton of an athletic program that you have today, because
    the numbers don't work. They already don't work for you. You
    just reach a point to where there'll be certain sports that'll
    be forgotten in collegiate athletics, which really begins the
    beginning of the end of their sports being relevant in any
    level, at the pro or semi-pro level.
        So, thank you, all, for being here. We've got work to do,
    and I, for one, think that we should. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
        Senator Booker [presiding]. Senator Klobuchar.
        Senator Klobuchar. Thank you very much. I want to thank
    you, Senator Blumenthal, and you, Senator Booker, for your
    work. And I'm looking forward to working with you on both my
    positions on Judiciary and Commerce to get this done.
        I will try to show the same restraint as you did, Senator
    Booker--it's not as good, but it's pretty good--in asking my
    first question to Governor Baker and noting that, given that
    he's from Massachusetts, where they play a lot of hockey, that
    the University of Minnesota Duluth and U of M women's hockey
    teams have collectively won 11 NCAA championships since 2001.
    I'm not sure you can have that record in Massachusetts. Is that
    correct?
        Mr. Baker. I got nothing there. I got nothing. No.
        Senator Klobuchar. Okay. All right.
        Mr. Baker. Harvard has won several women's NCAA
    championships, but those numbers in Minnesota are very special.
        Senator Klobuchar. Excellent. Excellent answer. Okay. Next,
    can you elaborate on how the NCAA's new policies will help
    student-athletes, the ones that you note in your written
    testimony about improving financial outcomes, including in
    areas of financial literacy, standard contract terms, agent
    registration?
        Mr. Baker. Sure. The policies that the DI Council is
    working their way through should be voted on before the end of
    the year, but they're basically designed to create what I would
    describe as some transparency and accountability.
        The financial literacy piece is something some schools
    already do. We would like to see everybody required to do that.
        The uniform standard contract is basically about doing
    exactly the same thing we do in almost every financial
    transaction industry in America, which is to have a contract
    that represents basic terms, and if an agent wants to move off
    of that, they need to explain to the student-athlete and the
    family why they want to move off it.
        The third part is to create what I would describe as a
    system where student-athletes would make available to their
    schools what their deal looks like, and then all that data
    would get deidentified and incorporated into kind of a public
    distribution.
        So that, if you were a gymnast, if you were a football
    player, if you were a basketball player, you would have some
    idea of what, traditionally, NIL looks like for you or for
    somebody like you, so that you have some idea about what it is
    you should get.
        And then the final piece is to make sure that we have an
    agents registry where agents have to, among other things, say
    they work for their customer, their client----
        Senator Klobuchar. Mm-hmm.
        Mr. Baker [continuing]. Because there's way too many
    examples, at this point, of agents taking advantage of student-
    athletes.
        Senator Klobuchar. I remember we talked about that when we
    met. Thank you.
        Mr. Baker. Yes.
        Senator Klobuchar. Mr. Petitti, how do the lack of uniform
    rules--I think, what, we have 31 State laws now that have
    emerged. How do the lack of rules put schools in States without
    NIL laws, like Minnesota, at a disadvantage because they cannot
    take advantage of State laws that preempt NCAA rules and are
    more permissive?
        Mr. Petitti. It's creating a recruiting and a transfer
    advantage in those States where money can flow to student-
    athletes that is encouraging attendance. It's encouraging
    transfer.
        States that have not enacted, so far, are in different
    positions. What we have, it's been mentioned earlier, is a
    situation where we compete in one conference across many
    States. We want that to be somewhat balanced. There's already
    enough--we have different size stadiums.
        There's a lot of things that impact competitiveness, but in
    this case we're seeing States increasingly keep ratcheting up
    what they're doing, to try to improve competitively. So, it
    starts at one place, and the next State, the next State keeps
    going----
        Senator Klobuchar. Right.
        Mr. Petitti [continuing]. In one direction.
        Senator Klobuchar. And, Ms. Thomas, does that lack of a
    single nationwide standard make things more difficult for
    student-athletes?
        Ms. Thomas. Yes. It makes things much more difficult and
    very confusing, a lot of times.
        Senator Klobuchar. Okay. Another issue that's related. Ms.
    Bodensteiner, after 50 years of Title IX, our athletes
    shouldn't have to fight to get adequate pay.
        As you know, Senator Cantwell and the Commerce Committee,
    we've worked to pass legislation, the Equal Pay for Team USA
    Act, which now requires equal pay and resources. How can we
    ensure that gender pay disparities don't persist under an NIL
    system?
        Ms. Bodensteiner. I think it's a combination of what
    Governor Baker and Mr. Swarbrick have already mentioned. One is
    transparency, and two is getting back to legitimate NIL deals,
    where the actual capitalist market is paying, in which case
    women will succeed at a greater level, I believe, than male
    athletes.
        But I think it all comes down to getting rid of this, you
    know, imper--should be impermissible market of paying athletes
    to attend institutions.
        Senator Klobuchar. Okay. Mr. Petitti, back to you. When we
    had a hearing, we all saw firsthand Simone Biles, Aly Raisman,
    McKayla Maroney, and Minnesotan Maggie Nichols testify before
    the Senate Judiciary Committee in 2021. By coming forward, we
    know they made a difference.
        What measures are the Big Ten and its member institutions
    implementing to ensure these types of abuse don't occur? We're
    very proud to have the final Olympic gymnastics trials destined
    for Minnesota in June of 2024 and think there'll be a lot of
    discussion about that. So, if you could just answer it from the
    Big Ten's perspective.
        Mr. Petitti. Yes. Thank you, Senator. First, we obviously--
    we want to make sure we ensure the safest environment for
    student-athletes, for coaches, and for the students that work
    in athletic departments. That's number one.
        Since then, we were the first to install a chief medical
    officer. The amount of attention and resources from the
    conference office--what we're trying to do is make sure that
    our members have, you know, the best resources to make sure
    that we're guaranteeing a safe environment for everybody
    involved.
        Senator Klobuchar. Thank you. And I'll ask on the record,
    Mr. Huma, questions I had about the announcement on the long-
    term health and disability benefits which I'd like to--I'll do
    it later and defer to my colleagues. Thank you.
        Senator Booker. I think next is my fellow Stanford man. I
    played tight end. I think he played far right wing on the
    soccer team--Josh Hawley.
        [Laughter.]
        Senator Hawley. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And thanks to all
    of the witnesses for being here.
        Mr. Baker--Governor Baker, if I could just start with you,
    I appreciated your comments in your opening statement about the
    attacks, the terrorist attacks on the state of Israel and the
    need to condemn those for what they are.
        Let me ask you about some of the statements that student
    groups on the campuses of your member schools have said
    recently.
        Students at Harvard wrote they, quote, ``hold the Israeli
    regime entirely responsible for all unfolding violence.''
        Students at Ohio State University praised, quote, ``the
    heroic''--heroic--``resistance in Gaza.''
        Students at the University of North Carolina claimed,
    quote, ``It is our moral obligation to be in solidarity with
    the dispossessed. This includes violence.''
        Students at New York University wrote, ``Peaceful discourse
    must be rejected'' and instead said, ``There is no peace in a
    colonized people living under occupation, subjugation, and
    apartheid,'' referring to Israel.
        And, finally, I'm sure you know Columbia University--
    Columbia was actually forced to close its campus when an
    Israeli student was assaulted and numerous Jewish-American
    students were threatened. Would you condemn this rhetoric of
    violence and antisemitism at these campuses?
        Mr. Baker. I think it's important--and I say this as much
    as a former Governor as I say it as the current head of the
    NCAA--for all of us, whether we agree with someone's general
    political philosophy or not, to condemn any support for
    violence. There is never an excuse for unprovoked attacks on
    innocent people.
        And I, you know, I've said many times, and I said it a lot
    when I was Governor, that we have gotten really casual about
    the way we think about violence in this country. And I said it
    all the way through the summer of 2020, when we had some really
    horrible things that happened to members of our Black
    community.
        And I think the--I think we have a cultural problem there
    as much as anything else, Senator. And I think it's important
    for everybody on all sides of the political spectrum to call
    that stuff out.
        Senator Hawley. Good. I agree with you. I'm glad you're
    willing to say it. I think it's important that the NCAA be
    willing to say it. You've got many Jewish-American athletes,
    I'm sure.
        Mr. Baker. And Jewish-American students.
        Senator Hawley. Indeed. And while--and I think you were
    gesturing to this. While the First Amendment certainly protects
    the right of anybody on our campuses and across the country to
    say what they want, peacefully--peacefully--that doesn't mean
    that we have to condone it and act as if it's morally
    acceptable.
        And I think it's vital that we take a stand. I'm going to
    ask the Senate to take a stand on the same rhetoric and condemn
    it as the violent antisemitic rhetoric that it is.
        Let me ask you about a student safety issue of a different
    kind. Earlier this year, this Committee heard testimony from a
    12-time All-American swimmer, Riley Gaines. She testified that
    in March of 2022, at the national championships where she was
    swimming, she was forced to share a locker room with a
    biological male, Lia Thomas.
        Let me just read from her testimony. ``In addition to being
    forced to give up our awards, our titles, and our
    opportunities, the NCAA forced me and my fellow swimmers to
    share a locker room with Thomas. Let me be clear. We were not
    forewarned, we were not asked for our consent, and we, the
    women, did not give our consent.'' Is that still NCAA policy?
        Mr. Baker. First of all, I'm not going to defend what
    happened in 2022. I wasn't there. I was still Governor of the
    Commonwealth. What I will say is, we have very specific rules
    and standards around the safety and security of all our
    student-athletes, and anyone who hosts one of our national
    championships has to know--has to accept that they know what
    they are and then abide by them accordingly.
        Senator Hawley. But--and does that include female athletes
    having to share locker rooms with biological males not being
    warned or consent? Do they--are they asked for their consent?
        Mr. Baker. I don't believe that--I don't believe that
    policy would be the policy we would use today.
        Senator Hawley. Currently not in----
        Mr. Baker. Correct.
        Senator Hawley. In--yes.
        Mr. Baker. Yes.
        Senator Hawley. Well, let me just ask you this. Would you
    support the right of student-athletes to unionize--athletes
    like Ms. Gaines, Ms. Thomas here today--to unionize, to have
    some bargaining power on some kind of an equal footing to deal
    with the NCAA, whether it's over safety issues like this one,
    whether it's over name, image, and likeness, whether it's over
    compensation?
        It seems like these institutions have all of the power. The
    NCAA has a lot of power, as we heard from Ms. Gaines. Should
    student-athletes have the right to unionize, to be able to
    speak with a little bit of an equal voice?
        Mr. Baker. I think the most important thing for us to
    remember here is to unionize--if student-athletes were to
    unionize--and we're going to have court cases on that, which is
    why--there's currently two NLRB cases that involve this issue.
    I'm more likely than not to not want to speak specifically to
    those.
        I do have concerns, and I've raised these before, about
    creating a system where you put one brush across all 19,000
    teams, all 1,100 schools, all 500,000 athletes, and say they
    should all be employees, because I do believe in your State and
    in the State of every single person on this Committee,
    literally thousands of your interscholastic athletic programs
    will go away. Because it completely changes everything about
    what it means to be a student-athlete and what it means to be a
    college that supports student athletics. And I think that's a
    problem.
        Senator Hawley. Well, I appreciate your responses and your
    candor. I will just say, in conclusion, that I think we've got
    to find some way to give these student-athletes a voice, and
    whether it's the issues like the ones Ms. Gaines raised or NIL
    issues or others, currently I think there's a huge power
    disparity. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Mr. Baker. Can I just make one final point, Senator, which
    is all three of our student-athlete advisory councils, which
    are elected by their peers, have expressed deep concerns about
    being considered to be employees. And I've talked to probably
    1,000 student-athletes since I got this job, and I haven't
    talked to one yet who wants to be an employee. I think that's
    important.
        Senator Booker. Senator Blackburn.
        Senator Blackburn. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you to
    each of you for being here. As most of you know, whether it's
    the Commerce Committee or here at Judiciary Committee, we have
    been focused on what we're going to do with the NIL issue and
    how it's going to affect student-athletes.
        Likewise, we have been very concerned about men in women's
    sports and what that does to the student experience.
        And Trinity, congratulations to you on your outstanding
    record. I am absolutely delighted that we have the opportunity
    to hear your perspective today.
        Governor Baker, it's no surprise to you I want to come to
    you first. And one of the things--pardon me--that we are
    looking at is the patchwork of State laws and how that affects
    so many different processes with the recruiting process,
    dealing with NIL, different approaches, different types of
    collectives.
        So, as you look at this patchwork, knowing that it's going
    to impact schools differently, whether it is Ole Miss or St.
    Joe or whomever, talk for a moment about how you're going to
    clean this up, and what is your timeline for delivering it?
        Your predecessor never could give us a date, time, and
    place that something was going to happen. So, give me a
    timeline. Give me a way forward. I think every university--
    there's 1,000 schools in this country that you all cover, and
    they all want to know, what is that process?
        Mr. Baker. So, thank you very much for that question,
    Senator, and I do appreciate the time you've given me on these
    issues. With respect to student-athlete transparency and access
    to information and consumer protections, which is sort of how I
    think about it, those are in the process of being written up,
    and I expect they'll be ratified before the end of the calendar
    year. Okay?
        And those are going to----
        Senator Blackburn. And the implementation would be at what
    point?
        Mr. Baker. It would be effective the beginning of the next
    scholastic year, so let's call it August of 2024.
        Senator Blackburn. Okay.
        Mr. Baker. With respect to institutional involvement, which
    is another issue we've talked about quite a bit here, I would
    expect those to be done by March, and I would expect that right
    around March we'd also be dealing with the issues around
    recruitment, also effective August of 2024.
        Senator Blackburn. Okay. So, there would be----
        Mr. Baker. Now, the question then becomes, Senator, those
    will be the ratified and voted-on bylaws by the organization,
    by the NCAA and its membership. But that doesn't necessarily
    mean that, in the current legal and regulatory environment,
    everybody will comply with them. And I fully expect at some
    point we'll have----
        Senator Blackburn. And then with women--with men in women's
    sports, when do you expect some specific guidance? Because you
    just responded to Senator Hawley that you didn't think the
    situation with Lia Thomas and Riley----
        Mr. Baker. Yes.
        Senator Blackburn [continuing]. Gaines, who, by the way, is
    a Tennessean--that the position would be the same. So, when
    will there be specificity on that?
        Mr. Baker. Well, first of all, the rules around--as I said
    before, the rules around transgender athletes generally are
    more restrictive today than they were in 2022. And I can state
    pretty clearly that no one's going to get forced into any sort
    of situation that's going to make them uncomfortable. We make
    that very clear in the guidance that we give to anybody who
    hosts one of our championships, period.
        Senator Blackburn. Okay. Thank you. Mr. Jones, if I could
    come to you, please. The collectives are something that we have
    looked at, and, of course, as we know and has been discussed
    today, 98 percent of your college athletes do not play pro
    sports.
        And then looking at the NIL issue, the financial benefit to
    the student, the need for financial literacy in this, the need
    to prepare that 2 percent that do go on to the pros, because we
    hear 78 percent of those athletes end up in bankruptcy--talk a
    little bit about what the collective is doing.
        You said in your testimony that you all don't help with
    recruitment. You jump in after the students are there. So, how
    do you help prepare them for this?
        Mr. Jones. Well, I think a lot of what we've heard today
    about collectives are outdated perceptions that probably were
    formed over 12 months ago when collectives were first being
    formed. They weren't as well staffed, they didn't have as much
    guidance, and they were just trying to figure things out.
        I think collectives, like everything, has evolved over the
    last 12 months, Senator, to a much more functional, well-
    staffed organization run by business professionals that provide
    resources and tools, because at the end of the day--I think
    originally collectives were about just writing a check to the
    athlete. There's no doubt about that.
        But I think what's happened now, collectives, and at least
    for mine, specifically, at the University of Mississippi, it's
    as much about developmental as it is compensation. And I
    believe that's philosophically the way we should be going, to
    protect the well-being of our student-athletes, to make them
    better prepared and more functional members of society when
    they leave their campus.
        So, most collectives in the 25, in the TCA, we stand united
    for--we already are very transparent. We have our contracts on
    file with universities. We are all about getting the bad actors
    out, with an agent registry. And a standardized contract? We
    have no problem with those things. So, we support a lot of what
    we've heard today. I just think the perception of collectives
    is outdated.
        We have evolved, just like the market has evolved, and we
    are giving our athletes resources and tools so they're better
    prepared in financial literacy, being a taxpaying citizen,
    networking in business, protecting the value of their name on
    social media, and all those tools, and how to deliver an
    obligation where you're compensated, which is the tools they're
    going to need, Senator, whether they play, to your point,
    professional sports or not. And the majority will not. And the
    tools that we are providing on the collectives of today are
    helping them prepare for that.
        Senator Blackburn. Mr. Chairman, my time has expired. I
    think it might be helpful to us, knowing there are other
    collectives in the room, if we could get a written statement
    from them of what their process of participation is, with their
    students, as we look at having some certainty and consistency
    in this process across the country.
        Senator Booker. Thank you. I'm turning it back over to the
    real Chairman, but I just want to say, next up is the Deion
    Sanders of the Republican caucus, Ted Cruz.
        [Laughter.]
        Senator Cruz. That may be the kindest introduction I have
    ever gotten in my life.
        [Laughter.]
        Senator Cruz. And I will say to the Senator from New
    Jersey, he may find that introduction played in attack ads
    against him in his home State, so I apologize for that ahead of
    time.
        [Laughter.]
        Senator Cruz. Welcome, to all the members of this panel.
    Thank you for being here. Thank you for your testimony on this
    topic, which I think is an exceptionally important topic.
        College sports are amazing. They are something that pulls
    us together. We're in a time where it seems we can't agree on
    what time of day it is. We're yelling and fighting over
    everything, and yet every week, millions of Americans come
    together and they cheer for their schools and they stand
    unified, and no one cares what race, what ethnicity, no one
    cares what political party they are, no one cares what religion
    they are. They stand together, and they cheer, and that's--
    that's important. I get enormous joy cheering for Texas schools
    every week. We--and that's true all across--all across the
    country.
        College athletics has also been an incredible avenue for
    millions of young men and millions of young women to get a
    great education--young men and women who might not otherwise
    have an opportunity to go to college, to have their college
    paid for and to get all of the benefits of participating in
    organized sports.
        Most college athletes will never play pro ball. They're not
    going to be on the cover of a Wheaties box. They're not going
    to get a Nike contract. But they are learning discipline and
    teamwork and sportsmanship, and they're learning to be gracious
    winners, and they're learning to be gracious losers, and
    they're learning all sorts of skills that will help them every
    day of their life.
        And I'm very worried about the state of college athletics
    right now. In addition to serving on the Judiciary Committee,
    I'm also the Ranking Member of the Senate Commerce Committee,
    which has jurisdiction over athletics.
        And as each of the witnesses know, I've spent much of the
    past year visiting and listening to stakeholders, listening to
    the NCAA, listening to conferences, listening to universities
    and institutions, listening to athletes.
        And across the board, I'm hearing real concern about the
    state of college athletics right now, that it is a Wild West,
    and that there is a real risk that if Congress doesn't act and
    act quickly, that we risk doing enormous damage to a system
    that is providing enormous benefits to millions of Americans.
        I've introduced draft legislation to address this issue,
    and the legislation I've introduced takes a different approach
    than some of the other pieces of legislation that have been
    introduced. And lots of Members of this body have introduced
    legislation. There's a lot of interest in it.
        My legislation protects NIL rights, front and center. I
    think it's important. I think it's right that athletes deserve
    to enjoy the fruit of their hard labors. And if their skills
    are generating millions of dollars and are a massive economic
    powerhouse, it's only right that these young men and young
    women should enjoy significant fruits from their hard work and
    their performance.
        But at the same time, I don't think anyone wants to see a
    world where you have a few giant schools with all the money,
    that buy all the top athletes, and we destroy competitiveness
    across college athletics.
        One of the great things about March Madness is 64 teams,
    and any one of them can win, in any given year. That makes it
    incredible fun to watch.
        I think it is also important that we protect college
    athletes across the board, so it's not just, you know, football
    and basketball at big marquees programs. But it's Division II,
    Division III schools--it's all sorts of non-revenue sports that
    are really important but are not going to produce millions of
    dollars and, you know, be on TV nationally.
        So, I'd like to ask a couple of questions to each of the
    witnesses, quickly. Number one, do each of you believe it is
    important that Congress act and provide a uniform national
    standard rather than 50 States having 50 different standards?
    Do you think it's important that Congress act? And I'm just
    going to ask for a yes or no.
        Mr. Baker. Yes.
        Mr. Petitti. Yes.
        Ms. Thomas. Yes.
        Mr. Huma. No.
        Mr. Jones. Yes.
        Ms. Bodensteiner. Yes.
        Mr. Swarbrick. Yes.
        Senator Cruz. Okay. A second question, and a difference
    between the way my bill approaches it and other bills, is that
    my bill empowers the NCAA to work with conferences, to work
    with universities to set the rules of the road.
        I think that's a better solution than the Federal
    Government stepping in, either an existing Government agency or
    a brand new Government agency. I think nobody wants to see
    Congress and politicians deciding what roughing the passer is.
    And bad things will happen, I believe, if Government takes over
    college sports.
        So, I'd like to ask everyone on the panel again to answer
    yes or no, or actually not yes or no, but do you believe the
    NCAA should be setting the rules, or do you believe the Federal
    Government should be setting the rules? Governor?
        Mr. Baker. Well, that's kind of an easy one for me,
    Senator. I'll go with the NCAA on that one.
        Senator Cruz. I figured that.
        Mr. Petitti. NCAA.
        Ms. Thomas. I don't have an opinion on that.
        Senator Cruz. Okay.
        Mr. Huma. The Federal Government, by extension of
    establishing a third party.
        Senator Cruz. Okay.
        Mr. Jones. The devil's in the details, but we would be open
    to the NCAA.
        Ms. Bodensteiner. The NCAA, in compliance with existing
    Federal laws.
        Senator Cruz. Okay.
        Mr. Swarbrick. The NCAA, especially if they can figure out
    targeting.
        Senator Cruz. Okay. I'm confident Congress cannot. I don't
    understand who gets called for targeting, but I know it pisses
    me off when it's against my schools.
        All right. Last question. There's a big debate over whether
    student-athletes should be classified as employees or not. I
    believe that would be a very serious mistake. It would subject
    scholarships to taxation. It would subject student-athletes to
    all sorts of wage and hour regulations. It would mean, if
    suddenly you have a receiver who drops a bunch of passes, you
    can be fired and lose your scholarship.
        All of that seems really bad for college athletics, not to
    mention the cost that it would impose on smaller programs that
    I think would lead to eliminating smaller programs. Going down
    the panel, do you believe student-athletes should be treated as
    employees, yes or no?
        Mr. Baker. No.
        Mr. Petitti. No.
        Ms. Thomas. No.
        Mr. Huma. Yes, for FBS football, Division I men and women's
    basketball.
        Mr. Jones. No.
        Ms. Bodensteiner. No.
        Mr. Swarbrick. No.
        Senator Cruz. Mr. Chairman, I would ask unanimous consent
    to enter into the record two different letters that I have
    here.
        One is a letter dated October 13, 2023, from four
    Historically Black Athletic Conferences, saying any legislative
    framework classifying student-athletes as employees would have
    a staggering impact on our athletic program and schools--an
    employment model for college sports is simply not the answer.
        And then second is a letter from the chair of the Division
    I Student-Athlete Advisory Committee, which represents nearly
    190,000 student-athletes, noting that student-athletes should
    not be employees of their institutions.
        Senator Blumenthal [presiding]. Without objection, so
    ordered.
        [The information appears as submissions for the record.]
        Senator Cruz. Thank you.
        Senator Blumenthal. Senator Padilla.
        Senator Padilla. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I had to step out
    for a presiding officer shift but have been tracking this
    important conversation, which I'm not unfamiliar with. Right,
    Mr. Huma?
        Appreciate you all participating here today. And I have
    heard that this question of whether there should be a national
    standard versus State-by-State standard keeps getting
    revisited, and I just want to register my position on that.
        I agree that, ideally, there would be a national standard,
    but only if it's done right and not if it undermines or
    compromises any of the protections or gains that have been made
    in different States. And I speak from experience.
        You know, when I served in the California State
    legislature, we worked hard to pass the Nation's first-ever
    student-athlete bill of rights.
        We even got through all the debates about student-athletes
    versus athlete-students--but that, maybe, is a discussion for
    another day--a student-athletes bill of rights to require
    universities to increase protections, health care, and
    resources to support student-athletes, not just their health,
    but with a specific eye toward academic support and graduation
    rates.
        And so I want to make a point here, for the record. While
    the NCAA has reported that 90 percent of Division I athletes
    have graduated within 6 years in 2022, this statistic fails to
    include athlete transfers who do not re-enroll.
        There's other concerns about the methodology. Bottom line
    here is statistics from NCAA are inaccurate and misleading.
    Using the standard Federal graduation rate, just 69 percent of
    Division I athletes graduated within 6 years.
        So, as we have this important conversation today, I want to
    make sure that the billions of dollars in profit that is made
    off of the performance, the work, and the sacrifice of student-
    athletes in collegiate sports is also used to support their
    pursuit of a college degree. Again, we intentionally call them
    student-athletes, not athlete-students. The student part comes
    first, not just in name. It also needs to come first in
    practice.
        Question for Mr. Huma. What protections exist today, and
    what protections are still needed to further support student-
    athlete graduation rates?
        Mr. Huma. Thank you. And thank you for all the work you've
    done in the past on college athletes' rights in California,
    setting a great example of what States can do.
        But, you know, first and foremost, if you look at the Pac-
    12 surveys, they did a survey a few years ago, and across all
    sports, athletes reported spending 50 hours a week in their
    sport alone. Fifty hours, on top of full-time school. So, you
    know, that survey's not going to change the TV schedules and
    the game schedules, but it's important that athletes on the
    back end have enough time to graduate.
        So, one important issue is to make sure athletes have
    enough time to graduate. I know the NCAA is saying that it's
    going to pass legislation for years and years afterwards, but
    the thing is, without enforcement, any rules that the NCAA
    adopts, if there's no enforcement, it's not going to happen,
    you know, so they don't have to abide by that.
        Senator Padilla. And so I'd offer to my colleagues, for
    consideration, a threshold, as we did at the State level.
    Certain programs, certain schools whose graduation rates, by
    program, fall below a certain threshold would then trigger
    requirements for additional investment, additional support,
    whether it's tutoring or anything else--if we're genuine and
    sincere when we call them student-athletes, right, not just
    athletes or athlete-students.
        I know my time is brief, but I also want to just ask a
    follow-up question to you on, in addition to academic support,
    I mean, the mental health needs--stress is real, and that's
    been under, you know, programs to date, conference structures
    to date.
        I can imagine--only imagine, under new conference
    structures, more travel time, more money at stake, time away
    from home and family, et cetera. What recommendations would you
    have for better supporting the students in that capacity?
        Mr. Huma. Well, I think first, if you address some of the
    root problems, you know, it's making sure injuries are taken
    care of, coaches can't push players back with injuries. There's
    a lot of athletes who are broken because they've been betrayed
    by the universities. And there has to be a third party. You
    know, it's not the honor system. Many schools do it right, many
    don't.
        The surveys show it. The trainers are saying that coaches
    are forcing players back in competition before they're ready.
    Fifty-nine percent of trainers say that. Twenty percent report
    returning players to play without even medical clearance.
    That's what's happening, really, at the schools. They're
    breaking kids.
        And now you realign conferences on opposite coasts? That's
    more pressures on academics, travel, their health, their rest.
    So, some of the structural issues need to be addressed. That
    will go a long way. And for the schools, many schools should be
    prioritizing having proper mental health services on campus.
        Senator Padilla. Yes. And there's no such thing as a full
    4-year ride. And I know my time is up, but I do want to ask
    just one more question, because I think it's timely,
    particularly for the State of California.
        And it's going to be for Governor Baker: It's my
    understanding that, following the 2021 Supreme Court decision,
    student-athletes are no longer forced to choose between their
    collegiate eligibility and NIL contracts.
        As all of you know, Los Angeles will be hosting the 2028
    Olympic and Paralympic Games, and preparations are well
    underway. To ensure the success of Team USA in these Games, we
    must address any remaining barriers to participation by our
    student-athletes.
        Governor Baker, you mentioned in your testimony that
    collegiate sports programs have been a significant pipeline for
    Team USA. Are there any remaining barriers for student-athletes
    who are also Olympic athletes? And whether it's accessing
    stipends from Olympic training programs or endorsing products
    during the Games, how would some of the rules that are
    entertained at State by State or here, federally, going to
    impact that conversation?
        Mr. Baker. What I think I would like to do, Senator, is get
    back to you in writing on that, because that's a really
    important question with a lot of detail in it, and I don't want
    to get it wrong. Okay? So, I will get you an answer in writing.
        Senator Padilla. I look forward to that.
        Mr. Baker. Okay.
        Senator Padilla. Thank you very much. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
        Senator Blumenthal. Thanks, Senator Padilla. Senator Lee.
        Senator Lee. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. President Baker, I'd
    like to turn to you first. A few minutes ago, my colleague
    Senator Hawley asked you a couple of questions related to Riley
    Gaines.
        Now, Riley Gaines was here just a few months ago. She
    testified in front of this Committee, at another hearing, about
    how the NCAA discriminated against her when she was required to
    compete against a biologically male athlete, Lia Thomas, and
    also required to share changing facilities with that same
    biologically male athlete.
        Another female swimmer, Kylee Alons, was so uncomfortable
    being required, without advance notice, to share changing
    facilities with a biologically male competitor that she went
    and found a supply closet, instead.
        Now, when Senator Hawley asked you those questions, you
    demurred, noting that those occurred before you came on as
    president. I understand that, and I look forward to those sorts
    of things not happening.
        But I think it's still relevant for us to ask what's been
    done about those. So, I'd like to know, first, have you
    apologized to those female athletes and any others similarly
    situated, for the trauma that was inflicted on them as a result
    of those decisions by NCAA?
        Mr. Baker. Again, Senator, I'm not going to speak to or
    defend what happened in 2022.
        Senator Lee. That's not my question. I'm asking whether
    you've apologized.
        Mr. Baker. I understand that. I don't know. I'm assuming
    you're asking--when you say you, you mean the----
        Senator Lee. Yes.
        Mr. Baker [continuing]. NCAA?
        Senator Lee. Yes.
        Mr. Baker. I don't know the answer to that question. I'll
    have to get back to you.
        Senator Lee. Okay. Thank you. Tell me what rules,
    regulations, restrictions, policies you may have put in place
    to allow these sorts of things from--to prevent these sorts of
    things from happening in the future.
        Mr. Baker. Well, I can tell you that the standards with
    respect to participation for trans athletes in women's sports
    have been adjusted since then and continue to be adjusted based
    on conversations with other governing bodies. And, again, I'm
    happy to put that to you in writing, which I think would be
    helpful.
        Senator Lee. Yes, that'd be great. Separate from the issue
    of competing, what about the question of sharing changing
    facilities? Do you have policies that you've adopted since then
    that address that particular issue?
        Is there a means by which female student-athletes are
    allowed, number one, to know in advance of when they might be
    required to share changing facilities with a biologically male
    student-athlete?
        And, number two, after notifying them, do you have policies
    and procedures in place to allow them to make alternative
    arrangements for changing facilities?
        Mr. Baker. Our policies with respect to the safety and
    security of student-athletes participating in our championships
    is pretty explicit about making clear that student-athletes
    should not be forced into uncomfortable situations. I will
    confirm that that would involve situations such as the one that
    you're raising here, and again, I'll get that to you in
    writing.
        Senator Lee. Thank you very much.
        Mr. Jones, I'd like to turn to you next. As a former
    student-athlete at Ole Miss, when you played for my colleague,
    Coach Tuberville, you weren't allowed to receive any
    compensation.
        Players now are allowed to profit based on their name,
    image, and likeness, which can lead to great benefits for the
    student-athlete and for collegiate athletics more broadly.
        For example, because of NIL, some players may choose to
    stay in college longer, allowing them to showcase their talents
    and, at the same time, pursue degrees instead of leaving early
    to go play in the pros.
        The University of Utah football team has recently arranged
    for their players to get leases on trucks, all of them driving
    the same truck, which I know a lot of them enjoy. Can you speak
    to the role that collectives play in NIL and their role going
    forward?
        Mr. Jones. Yes. And thank you, Senator, for your question.
    As I explained to Senator Blackburn, I think the role of
    collectives has evolved the last 12 years, and thankfully so,
    for the student-athletes. Again, what may have been started
    just as a organization to write a check or to compensate an
    athlete has now turned into a resource that provides tools,
    transparency in an area that didn't have any.
        And so, you know, but we've got to remember, too, that the
    student-athletes, this is a new environment for them. This is
    something that they've never experienced--18-, 19-, 20-year-old
    kids and their parents, and they're trying to navigate.
    They're--sometimes it's overwhelming to make sure that they
    don't do anything that would proclude their eligibility--would
    inhibit their eligibility.
        And we have taken the approach, at our collective at Ole
    Miss--but the other collectives in our association--about
    trying to make this just as much about development of the
    student-athlete. Financial literacy is really important, being
    a taxpaying citizen, understanding that when somebody pays you,
    the service that you need to provide and the obligation that
    you are owed. And all those things speak to making them more
    functional members of society when they leave our campus.
        So, again, I think collectives have evolved to create a
    structure where we can provide guidance, we can provide
    resources, we can provide knowledge.
        And we stand ready, as I've said in my written testimony
    and today, to have governance, to have oversight, to have a
    Federal standard. We share--ready to work with all our
    colleagues up here on this panel and with the Government, where
    necessary, because, Senator, we're lucky enough that we deal
    with the athletes every day. We're in the trenches with them.
    We're in the realities. And we just don't buy into all the
    negativity that you hear.
        Are there some things that need addressing? Absolutely. But
    overall, the impact that NIL has had in the health and well-
    being of our student-athletes has been overwhelmingly positive.
    We see that with our student-athletes. We see them to develop
    their maturity level.
        And again, I think if we're doing our part, we can provide
    really transparent and tangible detail to all the stakeholders,
    so we can provide the necessary guidance and be able to make
    the most informed decisions going forward. But I do think we
    have--we are much more about development than we are just
    compensation, for the last 12 months.
        Senator Lee. Thank you. I appreciate all that you and folks
    like my friend, Russ Skousen, do for student-athletes. Thank
    you.
        Mr. Jones. Thank you, Senator.
        Senator Blumenthal. Thanks, Senator Lee.
        We've been joined by Senator Manchin, who's done a lot of
    work in this area. I'm going to give him the opportunity to
    make a statement, and then I'll have a few closing questions.
    Senator Manchin.

                  STATEMENT OF HON. JOE MANCHIN, III,
             A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF WEST VIRGINIA

        Senator Manchin. Well, first of all, thank you, Senator
    Blumenthal, for being so kind to allow me in. And this is
    something very near and dear to my heart.
        It's good to see my friend, Governor--Governor--
    Commissioner Baker, I think, would be the appropriate term, and
    to all of you.
        I know you're all here because you care as much as we all
    do about the student-athlete. But, you know, we--I think we're
    losing sight of the word student, because basically, allowing
    them to switch around as they can right now with portals and
    everything else, there's--their chances of graduating are slim
    to none. And something has to be done.
        So, here's what we've done. We have a piece of legislation,
    Senator Blumenthal--and I've shared it with him and all that--
    myself and Tommy Tuberville, who was a coach at Auburn.
        We put a bill together which is called the PASS Act. And
    what we're trying to do is kind of put some guardrails, if you
    will, for boosters and collectives, to make sure they're
    associated with the schools and they're in sync with the
    schools, for the purpose of making coordination there. We're
    not trying to harm any student from able to sell their value.
    We just don't believe it should be auctioned off, school
    against school. Pretty simple.
        If you've got that value and that talent, you're on TikTok,
    whatever you are, get yourself a lawyer, get yourself an agent,
    and go to it. Just don't come to West Virginia University and
    then basically say, they'll give me this much, and now
    Maryland's going to give me this much, or so and so. So, we're
    trying to take that out of it.
        The other thing is moderating the transfer portal. I was
    fortunate enough to get a scholarship at WVU, and got hurt very
    early. Back then, in the 60s, they still kept me. They didn't
    have to.
        But right now, if I got a Division I scholarship, a
    Division I school scholarship, full scholarship, in one of the
    major sports, they're committed to keeping me for 4 years and
    giving me an education. They're that committed to education.
        The bottom line is, I'm not committed to stay. I can leave
    the first month, if I'm unhappy. They told me I'm going to play
    quarterback, and I go in, and now all of a sudden you're going
    to put me defensive back? Oh, no, I'm sorry--I'm going
    somewhere else.
        That is not what developing young athletes is about.
    They're going to have to be structured and coached somewhere.
    So, we're putting guardrails on that. Three years: freshman,
    sophomore, junior. Junior year--after that, go anywhere you
    want to. That coach has had a chance.
        Now, there's still going to be a waiver provision. I've
    spoken to Commissioner Baker about all these things, and if
    you've seen our bill--if not, we'll make sure you receive it,
    providing transparency of how these are operating, clarifying
    the NIL activities, which I just talked about, providing
    additional protection for student-athletes.
        The bottom line is, they should--our main goal is to get
    them an education, get them a skill set. There's less than 2
    percent that go into NL--NFL, or NBA, or whatever they may
    think they would love to do. We all have those grandeur dreams.
    Doesn't work out always. So, that's the most important thing.
        The other thing--I don't know if you all have considered
    that most of these student-athletes are receiving Pell grants.
    So, that means that the Federal Government is paying through
    Pell grants for the most highest valued part of the
    scholastic--it's basically the money that comes in through the
    large sports programs.
        And that doesn't seem fair to me. All these schools have
    other students that really need the Pell grants very badly, but
    there's enough value within the system that would pay for those
    students. I don't think anyone intended that to happen that
    way. It just has evolved. I don't know if you all were aware of
    that or not. It's been brought to my attention. I think that's
    something that has to be corrected, too.
        Enforcing oversight, also health and safety, and our bill
    basically says you will take care of a student-athlete 8 years
    after they finish their playing days or curriculum or graduate.
    And that means it has to be a sport-related injury to the sport
    they played. So, it'll probably be in orthopedics, things of
    that sort.
        We're trying to make sure they have the full value of
    having a quality of a healthy education and have a healthy life
    to provide for themselves and their family, but also the
    experience of being a student-athlete.
        They're coming in as professionals now. The NIL has
    basically just about destroyed what I know the system was and
    how it was supposed to be. Heck, I would've paid WVU to let me
    go play. And I'm to tell you the love of the sport, it still
    has to be there.
        If it's all about chasing the dollar, from when you're on
    Pop Warner teams and your parents are pushing you and all
    these--that's not what it was designed to be. So, if they're
    that good, go right in from high school to the pros. Don't come
    through the college system and basically have an auction bid.
    It doesn't--that's not what it was intended to be.
        So, I know everyone has different opinions about this. I've
    heard everything from a player's union--you want to really
    screw a school and screw Title IX and everything else, try that
    one on. And Title IX's going to get hurt the worst, and no
    one's even looking at that, to the point to where we're just
    worried about the two major sports that have all the money.
        So, I, you know, I've got a lot of problems, I really do,
    with this, seeing it up close and personal, seeing a lot of
    young men and women who've really made tremendous contributions
    to society, not through athletics, after they finished the
    athletic scholarship they had. They did it because they were
    developed young people who were matured enough to go out and
    share their value. And that's been tremendous.
        I think--I've always said this. I never could figure out,
    when we were in school, we used to get tickets, and we would
    sell the tickets, and that'd give us a little bit of spending
    money. We got $30 a month for laundry. That was it. I said,
    that's pretty good. We could almost live on $30 a month, back
    in the 60s. So, we felt good about all these things, but then
    we thought, man that's a bonus. I didn't expect that.
        And then, I says, so and so--some of my classmates and my
    ball players--their own parents couldn't afford to come watch
    them play. And if an alumni tried to pay to get the parent
    there, it was a violation. Crazy. I said, how come your mom's
    not here? Oh, my grandma wrote. She can't afford it. I just
    said, we've got to fix that.
        So, I know you all have good intentions. Guys, you've got
    to help us. If not, we're going to lose something that I see as
    one of the greatest pastimes we've ever had.
        And no matter where you went to school, no matter if you
    played or not, you're still there. It's still part of you. And
    you're rooting for the system, but you're rooting for the kids.
    And anymore, it's kind of hard to root for the kids when
    they're starting multimillionaires at freshman, sophomore.
        So, that's my two cents, Mr. Senator President--Mr.
    President Senate--no, Senator Blumenthal's been so kind.
        We have a lot of the same concerns, and we have a little
    different opinion of how it should be done, but if you help us,
    we can make changes, I think we really can, that's going to be
    constructive. And Mr. Baker, Charlie Baker, my friend, so glad
    you are where you are. I think you can put basically some
    common sense to this thing. I don't think we'd have never been
    there if we had the strength of leadership back when this thing
    evolved to where it got to today.
        So, I'm hoping all of us can work together and take the
    politics out of it. And I know it's hard to do that anywhere.
        But if you can take the politics out and be able to look at
    really what's our purpose, that student-athlete should have the
    best experience in their life--to be a basically contributing,
    quality adult, to give something back. Ninety-eight percent of
    them could do that. About 2 percent will stay and make their
    fortune in the arena. So, thank you.
        Senator Blumenthal. Thanks, Senator Manchin. I have a few
    closing questions which I'd like to pose to the panel as a
    whole. Some of you may be aware that international students are
    treated differently than American citizens who are college
    athletes.
        I've raised this issue of foreign student-athletes being
    able to benefit from their NIL with Secretary Mayorkas,
    actually in this room, before the Judiciary Committee.
        The current visa system puts those athletes at risk of
    losing their legal status here if they earn any NIL money. In
    my view, this kind of discrimination is deeply unfair to them
    and demonstrably outdated.
        For example, international students like Adama Sanogo, a
    star on the UConn Huskies basketball team and a significant
    part of our victory last year, is totally unable to earn any
    NIL benefits despite his prowess on the court.
        These student-athletes' diligence, discipline, and
    determination are equally deserving of monetary reward, in my
    opinion.
        Let me ask the panel as a whole, maybe beginning with
    Governor Baker, would you support changes in our laws and
    regulation to permit those international students who may not
    be citizens to benefit from their NIL status without fear of
    losing their visas or other legal status?
        Mr. Baker. Absolutely.
        Mr. Petitti. Absolutely yes.
        Ms. Thomas. Yes.
        Mr. Huma. Yes.
        Mr. Jones. Yes, and we actually do contract with
    international student-athletes.
        Ms. Bodensteiner. Yes.
        Mr. Swarbrick. Yes.
        Senator Blumenthal. And just to be clear, Mr. Jones, it's
    not a question of whether schools would be willing to let them
    or sponsors would be willing to pay them. It's their status, if
    they accept such payment under our current visa laws. That's
    what we need to change. So, thank you for helping them, but
    they are still at risk of losing their legal status.
        Mr. Jones. Yes. I agree.
        Senator Blumenthal. We haven't talked much about
    enforcement. I'm a former prosecutor. Most of my career has
    been spent in law enforcement. And whatever standards are
    adopted, whatever reforms are enacted, they will be meaningless
    unless they are enforced.
        The bill--draft bill that Senator Booker and I and Senator
    Moran have written would establish a federally chartered
    College Athletics Corporation. It would also give power to the
    State attorneys general. I happen to be a former State attorney
    general.
        I'd like to ask all of you, again, whether you think that
    kind of independent enforcer is important and whether you have
    any specific views on who should be doing it. Governor Baker?
        Mr. Baker. So, I guess I'd say a couple things. One is, I
    think that's a conversation we have had and I'm happy to
    continue to have. I do have some concerns about some of the
    details. And the AGs, we should talk about that a little. I've
    had some interesting experiences with AGs since I got this job.
        Senator Blumenthal. And before, probably, too.
        Mr. Baker. Yes, before, too. Yes.
        Senator Blumenthal. Well, I would welcome continuing our
    conversation about it. Mr. Petitti?
        Mr. Petitti. Yes, I would just need to know more about the
    structure and how it'd be set up to really have a strong
    opinion, I think. But initially, I'm more inclined to try to
    see if we can figure out a way for the NCAA to do this. But
    we're open to having those discussions with you.
        Ms. Thomas. I would also need more information to have an
    opinion.
        Senator Blumenthal. Mr. Huma?
        Mr. Huma. It's important that enforcement be conducted by
    an entity that's independent of the colleges, conferences, and
    the NCAA. I believe the industry wants enforcement when it
    comes to policing inducements to be the same entity that
    enforces health and safety and other aspects that protect
    college athletes.
        Mr. Jones. I would generally agree with Commissioner
    Petitti. Need more detail and more substance and context, but
    we're certainly open to oversight and governance, for sure.
        Ms. Bodensteiner. I agree more discussion is warranted. I'm
    a little bit worried about the lack of enforcement on current
    State laws such as NIL laws and agent laws that exist right
    now. I'm not sure the States have been very active in enforcing
    those.
        Mr. Swarbrick. I think increasing the effectiveness of
    enforcement is a critical area that has to be addressed. I'm
    not sure. I don't have enough detail to respond to that
    proposal.
        Senator Blumenthal. Well, I thank you, all, for your
    willingness to talk, but let me just emphasize the real test
    here is going to be whether the rules are enforced.
        I mean, the best rules in the world are dead letter unless
    they're enforced. And I'm certainly more than happy to hear
    from you about how the enforcement should be done, but in my
    view: independent, effective, well resourced, and intentional
    enforcement, with an emphasis on independent, is key to making
    this whole system work--not just on NIL but on health and
    safety, on scholarships, on medical trust fund, on all of the
    good things that we've agreed are important.
        And if we are heading now toward the Wild, Wild West and
    dangerous chaos with a patchwork of different measures, a
    national standard on any of these issues will depend on
    enforceability and, in fact, someone willing to take the reins
    and make sure that those athletes are really protected.
        Because we all know that the athletes themselves don't have
    the resources to go to court, and often, there's a lot of
    psychological pressure for them to just take it, suck it up, go
    with the program. And I think Ms. Bodensteiner is absolutely
    right that State enforcement, so far, has been lacking. So, I
    would not rely exclusively on State enforcement, whether it's
    by attorneys general or anyone else.
        And I would not rely exclusively on a Federal agency. I
    would allow the athletes themselves to go to court, but I think
    there has to be some enforcing agency here or entity.
    Obviously, we're talking about a college athletes corporation,
    which is not the FTC or an existing Government agency. But I'm
    open to considering one of those enforcement mechanisms, as
    well.
        I think the other area that Governor Baker has very rightly
    emphasized, it is transparency. We need prompt, full, accurate
    disclosure here, and I think that message has come across from
    this panel very compellingly and forcibly, and I think it is a
    fact of life that a lot of these very relevant issues need more
    sunlight, more disclosure and transparency. And I thank you for
    your willingness to work on that with us.
        Mr. Swarbrick, you commented very eloquently on the
    employee classification issue. The panel has seemingly with
    unanimity said no to employee classification, except for Mr.
    Huma. And I'd like to just ask you to maybe elaborate on the
    exception that you would make to barring employee status.
        Mr. Huma. Sure. And that would be to, you know, really look
    at equal rights under the law. But we know we're not talking
    about high school athletes, Division II, Division III. We're
    talking about top football and basketball. That's why the
    discussion's happening, and it's a realization that those
    athletes are generating much more revenue that they're
    receiving in terms of fair pay.
        There's a lack of protections, workplace protections that
    are involved, as well, and also, to Senator Hawley's point, the
    ability to eventually have some real say and collectively
    bargain with an industry that is hostile.
        We're talking about, you know, people are discussing
    closing the door on employee status without paying the athletes
    fairly. That hasn't come up in this hearing, and that's at
    really one of the pivotal points. It's also an issue that I
    encouraged to put to the side because I don't think Congress is
    going to actually proactively pay college athletes fairly.
        I don't think that legislation that would ban college
    athlete pay would get through, either, so there's a lot of
    issues that we can, I think, come to agreement on, but I think
    that issue is not one of them.
        Senator Blumenthal. So, you're talking about it only for
    some sports and some schools?
        Mr. Huma. Correct. Correct.
        Senator Blumenthal. And what if the athlete didn't want to
    be an employee?
        Mr. Huma. So there's, throughout our conversations in all
    the different States, there was athletes from, you know, the
    NCAA's committees or the colleges' committees that would say,
    ``Hey, look, I'd rather not have NIL, because a school told me
    that would divert money from our school and force us to cut my
    sport, and I'm afraid of that.''
        So, you've got to take it--you have to understand that the
    athletes that--they may truly have a difference of opinion, but
    it shouldn't negate the entire Nation, you know, of, you know,
    rights and progress for all athletes, you know, whether it be a
    handful of athletes or groups.
        What is equal rights under the law? Do athletes have labor
    rights or not? And I don't think that Congress should be
    creating--special status is what I heard, but it's a second-
    class citizenship. When you carve out players from rights,
    that's a big issue in this country, and we oppose that.
        Senator Blumenthal. I think we'll continue to talk about
    this issue, and I'm certainly sympathetic to the idea of
    collective bargaining. I've been a long-standing champion of
    unions and the vital role they play in employment settings, and
    I'd like to continue this conversation with you.
        I think one of the objectives here is to guarantee fairness
    and protection to athletes in all schools and all sports, and
    perhaps that kind of exception makes sense for some colleges
    and some sports, but I think the line drawing may be difficult
    to do. But we can continue this conversation.
        I am grateful to all of you for being here today. It's been
    a remarkably productive and informative hearing. Each of you
    has brought a perspective that is singular and extraordinarily
    significant, and I want to thank all of you.
        I think that one point that comes across loud and clear is
    that the present system isn't working. It is broken. And the
    corrective action taken so far is commendable but, so far,
    inadequate, and that Congress has to do its job to protect
    student-athletes.
        Thank you, all, for being here today. The record will
    remain open for 1 week for questions that may be submitted or
    any additional comments, and we welcome them, that you want to
    add, in writing. And with that, the hearing is closed.
        [Whereupon, at 12:47 p.m., the hearing was adjourned.]
        [Additional material submitted for the record follows.]

                                A P P E N D I X

    Submitted by Chair Durbin:

      Berlo, Josh, letter.............................................   170

      Braun, Amanda, letter...........................................   172

      Byun, Elise, letter.............................................   175

      Chapman, Brent, letter..........................................   178

      Cheeks, Davaris, letter.........................................   180

      Choate, Bryce, letter...........................................   183

      Hellmuth, Avery, letter.........................................   186

      Jackson, Simone, letter.........................................   188

      Walkowiak, Betsey, letter.......................................   189

    Submitted by Ranking Member Graham:

      United States Olympic & Paralympic Committee (USOPC) and Team
        USA athletes, letter..........................................   191

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