[Senate Hearing 118-541]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]




                                                        S. Hrg. 118-541


                  EXAMINING CANNABIS BANKING CHALLENGES OF
                       SMALL BUSINESSES AND WORKERS

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               before the

                              COMMITTEE ON
                   BANKING,HOUSING,AND URBAN AFFAIRS
                          UNITED STATES SENATE

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                             FIRST SESSION

                                   ON

 EXAMINING CANNABIS BANKING CHALLENGES OF SMALL BUSINESSES AND WORKERS

                               __________


                              MAY 11, 2023

                               __________


  Printed for the use of the Committee on Banking, Housing, and Urban 
                                Affairs





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                Available at: https: //www.govinfo.gov /




                               ______
                                 

                 U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE

58-248 PDF                WASHINGTON : 2026










            COMMITTEE ON BANKING, HOUSING, AND URBAN AFFAIRS

                       SHERROD BROWN, Ohio, Chair

JACK REED, Rhode Island              TIM SCOTT, South Carolina
ROBERT MENENDEZ, New Jersey          MIKE CRAPO, Idaho
JON TESTER, Montana                  MIKE ROUNDS, South Dakota
MARK R. WARNER, Virginia             THOM TILLIS, North Carolina
ELIZABETH WARREN, Massachusetts      JOHN KENNEDY, Louisiana
CHRIS VAN HOLLEN, Maryland           BILL HAGERTY, Tennessee
CATHERINE CORTEZ MASTO, Nevada       CYNTHIA M. LUMMIS, Wyoming
TINA SMITH, Minnesota                J.D. VANCE, Ohio
KYRSTEN SINEMA, Arizona              KATIE BOYD BRITT, Alabama
RAPHAEL G. WARNOCK, Georgia          KEVIN CRAMER, North Dakota
JOHN FETTERMAN, Pennsylvania         STEVE DAINES, Montana

                     Laura Swanson, Staff Director

               Lila Nieves-Lee, Republican Staff Director

                       Elisha Tuku, Chief Counsel

                  Amber Beck, Republican Chief Counsel

                      Cameron Ricker, Chief Clerk

                      Shelvin Simmons, IT Director

                       Pat Lally, Assistant Clerk


                                  (ii)










                            C O N T E N T S

                              ----------                              

                         THURSDAY, MAY 11, 2023

                                                                   Page

Opening statement of Chair Brown.................................     1
        Prepared statement.......................................    30

Opening statements, comments, or prepared statements of:
    Senator Scott................................................     3
        Prepared statement.......................................    31

                               WITNESSES

Senetor Jeff Merkley of Oregon...................................     4
    Prepared statement...........................................    32
Senator Steve Daines of Montana..................................     6
    Prepared statement...........................................    33
Ademola Oyefeso, International Vice President and Director of 
  Legislative and Political Action Department, United Food and 
  Commercial Workers International Union (UFCW)..................     8
    Prepared statement...........................................    34
    Responses to written questions of:
        Chair Brown..............................................    68
        Senator Menendez.........................................    68
        Senator Fetterman........................................    70
Kevin A. Sabet, President and CEO, Smart Approaches to Marijuana, 
  and Fellow, Yale University....................................    10
    Prepared statement...........................................    36
Michelle Sullivan, Chief Risk and Compliance Officer, Dama 
  Financial......................................................    12
    Prepared statement...........................................    42
Cat Packer, Vice Chair, Cannabis Regulators of Color Coalition...    14
    Prepared statement...........................................    43
    Responses to written questions of:
        Chair Brown..............................................    70
        Senator Menendez.........................................    71
        Senator Fetterman........................................    71

              Additional Material Supplied for the Record

Documents submitted regarding the SAFE Banking Act...............    72

                                 (iii)









 
                  EXAMINING CANNABIS BANKING CHALLENGES OF
                       SMALL BUSINESSES AND WORKERS

                              ----------                              


                         THURSDAY, MAY 11, 2023

                                       U.S. Senate,
          Committee on Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs,
                                                    Washington, DC.
    The Committee met at 9:45 a.m., in room 538, Dirksen Senate 
Office Building, Hon. Sherrod Brown, Chair of the Committee, 
presiding.

            OPENING STATEMENT OF CHAIR SHERROD BROWN

    Chair Brown. Thanks to Senators Merkley and Daines for 
being here to testify and welcome to our other witnesses on the 
second panel. And thank you to Ranking Member Scott for working 
with us on this hearing.
    The cannabis landscape looks far different than it did even 
a few short years ago. Cannabis has been legalized or 
decriminalized in almost every State. States and localities 
have established licensing and social equity programs to ensure 
that small businesses and communities impacted by the war on 
drugs are part of the growing legal cannabis industry.
    Today, we will hear about the challenges that small 
businesses and workers continue to face, and how we can empower 
and protect workers, provide stronger consumer and small 
business protections, and ensure fair and equitable access to 
financial services, all while making sure that our communities 
stay safe.
    Banking, of course, is critical for small cannabis 
businesses who already face hurdles getting their business off 
the ground. Like any business, they need to apply for licenses 
and raise capital. But that is hard to do when you do not have 
a bank account, or if you do, one that might come with lots of 
fees.
    Without full access to the banking and payments system, 
legal cannabis businesses are forced to operate in the shadows. 
They cannot access SBA loans and know that even if they try to 
apply for a bank loan, they might go through all the costs and 
effort only to be denied. So many small businesses rely on 
friends and family for funding. They deal with lots of cash, 
spend precious time trying to find a work-around, or hire 
expensive third-party service providers that take a hefty cut 
of their slim profits. This puts a robbery target on the backs 
of workers and can make it harder to combat money laundering.
    There are also thousands of workers who cannot prove their 
income to get a mortgage or a car loan, or keep a personal bank 
account, even though their paychecks came from a business that 
is perfectly legal in their State.
    Many of these workers are represented by unions, important 
to this Committee, represented by unions like the UFCW and the 
International Brotherhood of Teamsters, which are fighting to 
make sure that their workers have more power in the workplace, 
in an industry where their physical safety is too often at 
risk.
    The effects of this patchwork system go beyond just the 
cannabis industry. Sheet metal and air conditioning contractors 
build service retail locations and other facilities. Lawn care 
and gardening companies, like Scotts Miracle-Gro in central 
Ohio, sell materials and equipment. They want to continue their 
businesses and serve their customers, and they do not want to 
worry that it will put their bank accounts at risk.
    While small businesses and workers deal with these 
challenges, the large cannabis companies are the ones 
dominating the market. They have ready access to private 
capital and are taking advantage of their workers with unfair 
labor practices to maximize profits. I stand by the workers who 
are actively fighting for higher wages and safer workplaces.
    We do not want the cannabis industry to become like Big 
Tobacco--concentrating industry power in just a few giant 
places. We know what that leads to. It hurts workers and pushes 
out thousands of small businesses, those small businesses 
likely to be owned by Black and Brown entrepreneurs, women, and 
veterans.
    We want small banks and credit unions, MDIs, and CDFIs to 
be able to serve small businesses and their workers, and level 
the playing field in an industry that is increasingly 
concentrated.
    Community banks and credit unions in my State want to serve 
the legal cannabis industries in their communities, and they 
want to rest assured that they can continue to bank their 
existing customers.
    Banks and credit unions should not have to pick and choose 
which services they can offer to customers that happen to earn 
their income from a cannabis business. People in the cannabis 
industry should be able to have the same types of personal, 
commercial, and mortgage loans that any other customer can 
have, with the same protections and without additional costs or 
fees.
    And as we all know, the over-criminalization of marijuana 
has disproportionately hurt communities of color and indigenous 
communities.
    We have a long way to go to right those wrongs. We can 
start by ensuring that members of these communities not only 
benefit from, but also lead, the growth of the legal cannabis 
industry.
    MDIs and CDFIs can help reach these communities that are 
often overlooked--or worse, preyed upon--by other financial 
institutions. And people with prior marijuana convictions, 
especially in States where it is now legal, should not be 
barred from participating in our economy, whether it is renting 
a home or finding a good-paying job.
    We all want safe communities and a safe banking system. We 
all know, after the recent bank failures sparked by a panic-
induced run, banks must manage the risks of their businesses. 
And they need to understand that failure to meet stakeholder 
expectations can have dire consequences for their customers.
    We must not weaken regulators' ability to protect consumers 
and the banking system from these risks.
    Financial institutions also play an important role in 
monitoring our financial system for fraud, money laundering, 
and other illegal activities. We need to ensure that workers 
and small businesses in the cannabis industry can access 
banking, while maintaining our robust anti-money laundering 
framework.
    I have heard from law enforcement officials who say that 
expanding banking access to cannabis businesses can help 
improve public safety, and direct resources toward truly 
criminal activity.
    Cannabis banking is of course just one part of the 
conversation on marijuana policy. People should not be thrown 
in jail for a product that others are legally profiting from. 
We have been able to work together in the past on a bipartisan 
basis to give those with prior convictions a second chance.
    Everyone, including our veterans, should have access to the 
medicine they need to care for themselves and their families. 
And if we truly care about public health, we should consider 
more medical and scientific research on this topic, something 
that Senator Tester has been particularly involved in, as the 
leader of the Veterans Affairs Committee.
    There is more work to be done to make sure everyone can 
participate in the banking system and the legal cannabis 
economy in a fair, safe, and equitable way. I am glad we are 
building on the progress we have made over the years, and I 
look forward to continuing these conversations.
    Ranking Member Scott.

             OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR TIM SCOTT

    Senator Scott. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you to both 
of you for being here with us today, particularly to Senator 
Daines for your hard work and dedication on this topic for a 
number of years, as well as acknowledging both Senators Cramer 
and Lummis for their hard work as well, on such an important 
topic.
    Each one of us on this Committee represents different 
States with different marijuana laws, and I understand that 
some of us may be in very different places when it comes to the 
legality of marijuana. In my home State of South Carolina, 
marijuana is largely still illegal, and I, myself, have 
concerns with it.
    And at the Federal level, marijuana is considered a 
Schedule I drug, which means that the possession, distribution, 
or sale of marijuana and other marijuana-derived products is 
illegal and that proceeds from marijuana-related businesses are 
subject to U.S. anti-money laundering laws.
    The Department of Justice and national law enforcement 
groups have expressed concerns that the SAFE Banking Act could 
create loopholes in our money-laundering laws, making it harder 
to catch criminals that traffic weapons, fentanyl, and even 
people--much harder, which is a consequence that we must 
eliminate if this bill is to become law.
    However, there are some States that have legalized 
marijuana, and now we have legal State-based marijuana-related 
businesses throughout the country that depend on a relationship 
with their bank or credit union. And as a former small business 
owner, I understand and appreciate the importance of having 
that relationship with your financial institution. A banking 
relationship is crucial to providing safety and stability for a 
company, both employees and the customers it serves.
    That is why I am looking forward to hearing from our second 
panel of witnesses on how these businesses operate, the 
complications faced by these businesses, and how the safe 
harbor provided in the SAFE Banking Act would work in practice 
or if more is needed to ensure compliance.
    Finally, if we are going to have a conversation about SAFE 
Banking and banking a product that is illegal at the Federal 
level, then we must discuss the importance of banking all 
industries. In the past few years, we have seen certain 
financial institutions cave to political pressures and take 
actions to ``de-bank'' certain legal industries, such as 
firearms and oil and gas entities, due to the wild progressive 
nature of the radical left and their agenda. These same 
institutions that are asking us to take a second look at the 
SAFE Banking Act are frankly standing in the way of banking 
legal entities today. I find that disappointing and quite 
perplexing.
    Congress has a responsibility to ensure that all legal 
industries have access to financial institutions and services. 
I understand that SAFE Banking, as drafted, currently contains 
a provision to ensure that legal industries are banked. De-
banking legal industries is inappropriate, and I look forward 
to hearing more about that part of the legislation as we 
continue the discussion today. I hope today's hearing lends 
itself to a thoughtful debate on this issue.
    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Chair Brown. Thank you, Senator Scott. The first panel I 
invite Senator Merkley of Oregon--thank you for your work on 
this--and Senator Daines of Montana to speak. Some, as you both 
know, as this has moved perhaps more slowly than many hoped, 
have tried to use this issue as a back-door way to weaken bank 
safeguards that protect our economy. I want to be clear, 
nothing--nothing--goes through this Committee that weakens 
consumer protections and the safety and soundness of the 
banking industry.
    Senator Merkley, please begin.

          STATEMENT OF SENATOR JEFF MERKLEY OF OREGON

    Senator Merkley. Chairman Brown, Ranking Member Scott, 
Members of the Committee, thank you for holding this hearing 
today on the SAFE Banking Act. I got engaged in this issue some 
8 years ago because of the problems created by the cash economy 
in cannabis, and from the beginning it has been a bipartisan 
effort to address these challenges and a compliment to former 
Senator Cory Gardner who worked on this, and it has been a real 
pleasure to work with my colleague, Steve Daines of Montana, as 
we seek to pursue solutions to the advancement of crime through 
a cash economy. And Chairman Brown, thank you for your 
partnership and for the collaboration that brought us to this 
moment today.
    Half of all States across our Nation have some form of 
legalized cannabis--37 States have legal cannabis for medicinal 
purposes, and 21 have legal cannabis for recreational use. It 
is an industry that supports more than 428,000 jobs and 
accounts for over $25 billion in retail sales. It is becoming a 
sizable industry.
    In my home State of Oregon, we had nearly $1 billion in 
sales last year, and the taxes generated from those sales 
helped fund our schools, mental health and substance abuse 
treatment programs, as well as law enforcement and city and 
county needs.
    But our Federal law has not kept pace with Americans' 
changing attitudes toward cannabis, nor with the changing laws 
at the State and local level. That failure has denied these 
legitimate businesses the ability to access the same basic 
necessities as every other business, whether it is access to 
banking and credit card accounts, payroll services, and more, 
because depository institutions and credit unions, are worried 
they may be threatened with prosecution under Federal law, and 
they have largely refused to work with this industry.
    So three-quarters of the cannabis economy operates entirely 
in cash. The few financial institutions that do work with 
cannabis businesses charge extraordinary fees because of the 
risk and the added layers of compliance. And this cash-only 
situation just trickles down far beyond the cannabis retailers 
and growers. It proceeds to affect all of the associated 
businesses, whether they are providing fertilizer or they are 
setting up greenhouses or they are selling seeds, or any other 
way connected, and many of them get thrown off their banking as 
a result of being a supplier to the cannabis economy.
    It affects the employees of these legal cannabis businesses 
who cannot be paid by check or direct deposit. They have to 
walk around with wallets full of cash, worried that they will 
be a target for criminals on payday.
    Forcing legal businesses to operate in a cash economy is 
terrible for accountability, but it is great for crime. It has 
left these businesses, and all that are connected to them, open 
to violent crime, open to money laundering, employee theft, tax 
fraud, and more.
    And Ranking Member Scott, I wanted to mention, there is 
nothing like a cash economy to facilitate money laundering. The 
lack of electronic records in this world makes it really easy 
to move money that should not be moved. So it is a piece of the 
conversation I hope will come out as this bill is explored.
    There is no national database to compile the stats on 
incidents connected to these businesses, but we do have them 
for some States. Over the past 12 months, we have had 129 
robberies of Oregon cannabis businesses, and we have seen that 
in State after State because the criminals know that since they 
are operating in cash, there is cash inside those stores, so 
they proceed to assault them. They know that the employees 
might be taking that cash out for transactions, so employees 
get assaulted.
    So whether it is the robberies, whether it is the assaults, 
whether it is the money laundering, all of it is bad news that 
we can address by passing this bill.
    If these businesses have the ability to accept debit cards 
and credit cards, use the same systems to pay their taxes and 
payrolls, all of those incentives for those crimes goes away.
    The Secure and Fair Enforcement Banking Act, or SAFE 
Banking Act, that Senator Daines and I have introduced and led 
together, would ensure that legitimate businesses, operating in 
compliance with State laws in those States where citizens have 
said they want this--so it is a State's rights issue--will have 
access to the same financial services as every other business.
    And I do want to mention that as Senator Scott pointed out, 
we do have provisions here to address the issue of reputational 
risk being used against certain parts of the economy, in an 
inappropriate way. So we are pleased to add that as a 
strengthening part of this bill.
    Financial institutions will be protected against 
prosecution or asset forfeiture primarily for providing 
services to a State-sanctioned cannabis-related business.
    To be clear, banks will not be forced to provide services 
to cannabis businesses. It is their choice. But if they provide 
that, they will have a safe space for the institutions and the 
industry.
    It explicitly extends that safe harbor to Community 
Development Financial Institutions, that the Chairman 
mentioned, and Minority Depository Institutions, MDIs, who 
serve underserved communities facing that have been 
disproportionately affected by cannabis enforcement in the 
past.
    After much consultation with colleagues and outside 
experts, this bill does include provisions to address concerns 
around equity and issues around law enforcement and money 
laundering raised in a memo by the Department of Justice last 
year.
    As a result, we have a piece of legislation that has 
significant bipartisan support, significant bicameral support. 
It has passed out of the House seven times. It is supported by 
people who believe the time has come to end the cash economy 
that hurts people in so many different ways.
    I would like to submit into the record letters from current 
Oregon cannabis retailers, sharing their own stories of the 
challenges and dangers facing them in this all-cash 
environment.
    Chair Brown. Thank you, Senator Merkley. Before Senator 
Daines begins I would like to recognize Congressman Blumenauer 
from Portland, who is here and worked aggressively in the House 
on this issue. Earl, good to see you.
    Senator Daines is recognized.

          STATEMENT OF SENATOR STEVE DAINES OF MONTANA

    Senator Daines. Chairman Brown, thank you. Ranking Member 
Scott, thank you as well.
    I am very pleased that the Banking Committee is holding a 
hearing on this important topic. Across my home State of 
Montana and in communities across the country, legal businesses 
are facing a public safety crisis. These businesses, often 
forced to operate in all cash, are appealing targets for 
robbers.
    Senator Merkley talked about what is happening in his State 
of Oregon. Just to the north of him, in Washington State for 
instance, 2022 saw at least 100 armed robberies at cannabis 
retail stores, the most in the past 10 years. Tragically, 
several of these incidents ended in bloodshed.
    The SAFE Banking Act would help address a major cause of 
this increase in violent crime by providing a safe harbor for 
depository institutions and service providers to transact with 
State-sanctioned marijuana businesses. In short, this bill 
would make it much easier for businesses to put their cash into 
banks. It is really not that complicated.
    Some of the witnesses today will say that there are 
hundreds of banks and credit unions providing financial 
services to State-sanctioned marijuana businesses, and that 
SAFE Banking is not needed. However, the truth is that only 
approximately 9 percent of the financial institutions in 
America have provided services to any marijuana-related 
businesses, meaning that those who are providing financial 
services face limited competition and charge substantially more 
to bank these clients than other businesses, resulting in 
services being prohibitively expensive for many businesses.
    This legislation would also help Federal and State law 
enforcement distinguish between the legal and the illegal 
marijuana businesses.
    Opponents of this bill will say that SAFE Banking will help 
to grow the $25 billion market for marijuana in the United 
States. However, the real size of the market is estimated to be 
at $100 billion, of which roughly 75 percent is illicit 
cannabis production.
    Allowing cash from legal, regulated businesses to enter the 
banking system will help law enforcement more easily 
distinguish legitimate actors and focus more of their resources 
on prosecuting the illicit market, and in so doing, may 
actually shrink the size of the overall industry and reduce 
consumption in the United States. If nothing else, SAFE Banking 
will greatly increase tax compliance and tax revenue for 
States.
    This legislation is widely supported by banks, by credit 
unions, by the insurance industry, and many other service 
providers who at present do not have clear guidelines for how 
they can safely and legally transact with State-sanctioned 
marijuana businesses. Roofers, plumbers, electricians, and 
other similar service businesses are technically at risk of 
engaging in illegal money laundering simply for putting on a 
few shingles, fixing a leaky pipe, or safely wiring a building. 
In States where these are legally operating businesses, do 
opponents of this bill really believe that hard-working 
tradesmen and women should be put in this impossible position?
    There is a bipartisan coalition of 38 State and territorial 
attorneys general who have come out in support of this bill in 
the past, and we have strengthened it considerably based on 
feedback from the Department of Justice.
    I want to quote one of my county sheriffs back in Montana, 
Lincoln County Sheriff Darren Short, up in the very northwest 
part of Montana. He says this, and I quote:

        It concerns me that businesses have such a large amount of cash 
        on hand, which is clearly a liability and a public safety 
        issue. I also believe that any all-cash business is going to be 
        rife with fraud, so it is an accounting problem as I see it 
        too. As far as marijuana legalization goes, the voters of 
        Montana made that decision and now it is our role to make it 
        safe and make it work. I am happy to support the SAFE Banking 
        Act.

    This bill does not legalize marijuana. I personally do not 
support Federal legalization of marijuana. The people of 
Montana voted 57-43 in a ballot initiative in 2020, to legalize 
recreational marijuana.
    The people in States across this country have spoken, and 
it is abundantly clear that the status quo is not only 
untenable, it is very dangerous. The SAFE Banking Act is a 
commonsense bill that can and should pass and would immediately 
improve the public safety threats we are seeing on the ground 
in our States. I ask my colleagues to look at this issue with 
open eyes, and I look forward to hearing their input today. 
Thank you.
    Chair Brown. Thank you, Senator Daines. Senator Merkley and 
Senator Daines, thanks for joining us. I know you have places 
to go, so thanks for being part of this.
    Will the other witnesses please come forward. Three are in 
person. I believe Ms. Sullivan is joining us virtually.
    I will begin the introductions as you are seated.
    Mr. Ademola Oyefeso is International Vice President and 
Director of Legislative and Political Action Department at the 
United Food and Commercial Workers International Union. 
Welcome, Mr. Oyefeso. He was the Senior Director of Political 
Affairs and Strategic Initiatives at the Retail, Wholesale, and 
Department Store Union.
    Dr. Kevin Sabet is the President and CEO of Smart 
Approaches to Marijuana, the Foundation for Drug Policy 
Solutions. He is an affiliate of Yale University's Institution 
for Social and Policy Studies. He received his Doctor of 
Philosophy and Master of Science from Oxford. He is a Marshall 
scholar. Welcome.
    Michelle Sullivan, who is joining us from her home or 
office, is the Chief Risk and Compliance Officer at Dama 
Financial. Previous to joining she held roles as Senior Vice 
President and Director of Corporate Risk Operations and Senior 
Vice President and Director of Corporate Fiduciary Compliance.
    And Ms. Cat Packer is the Vice Chair of the Cannabis 
Regulators of Color Coalition, the Director of Drug Markets and 
Legal Regulation of the Drug Policy Alliance. From 2017 to 
2022, Ms. Packer served as the first Executive Director of the 
city of Los Angeles Department of Cannabis Regulation. She 
received a bachelor's and master's degree, a juris doctor, from 
Ohio State University. I wish you still lived there, but 
whatever.
    Mr. Oyefeso, please begin.

STATEMENT OF ADEMOLA OYEFESO, INTERNATIONAL VICE PRESIDENT AND 
DIRECTOR OF LEGISLATIVE AND POLITICAL ACTION DEPARTMENT, UNITED 
     FOOD AND COMMERCIAL WORKERS INTERNATIONAL UNION (UFCW)

    Mr. Oyefeso. Good morning, Chair Brown and Ranking Member 
Scott, and Members of the Committee. Thank you for the 
opportunity to testify today. I am Ademola Oyefeso with the 
United Food and Commercial Workers Union.
    UFCW represents over 1.3 million hard-working men and women 
who work in highly regulated industries, including over 10,000 
workers in the cannabis industry. Our cannabis members can be 
found everywhere from seed to sale. As the leading union in 
cannabis, UFCW is committed to shaping this industry into one 
that provides safe, well-paid, and family sustaining jobs for 
all workers.
    All jobs have challenges, but few industries face the 
unique challenge of a Federal prohibition on access to legal 
banking. Workers are paid in cash, and the cash-heavy nature of 
cannabis retail creates safety and financial problems for 
businesses, customers, and workers. The majority of people in 
the cannabis industry are workers, and in order for these 
workers to have the same opportunities for advancement and 
safety, Congress must directly address the cannabis banking 
challenge.
    There are few banks that are willing to provide their 
services to cannabis employers, and this leaves workers 
struggling to find a place to do their own personal banking. 
Without a bank that will accept their paycheck or proof of 
employment, like a pay stub, cannabis workers struggle to 
purchase homes and often find themselves having to pay higher 
mortgage rates, even though they work in a perfectly legal 
profession in their State. The lack of banking makes it 
difficult to get personal loans for homes and cars as well.
    Ashley Batista, a member of UFCW Local 1776KS and a worker 
at Jushi, a cannabis grow and processing facility in Scranton, 
Pennsylvania, notes the challenges and benefits of banking for 
her and her coworkers:

        I have watched several coworkers who saved up every nickel and 
        dime for a downpayment on a home, just to be denied a home loan 
        due to the legality of their profession. Cannabis workers face 
        negative stereotyping and discrimination also. Having the 
        support of traditional banks would help move away from the 
        stigma on cannabis and gives us an opportunity to qualify for 
        home loans, improve financial stability, and allow us a plan 
        for the future.

    Cannabis workers are also targets for robbery and theft, 
because they are known to carry cash. Ms. Batista continued: 
``Many employers have cut their security teams entirely and 
solely rely on workers to watch surveillance cameras. 
Dispensaries are burglarized and robbed at roughly the same 
rate or greater as cash-intensive businesses. Cannabis workers, 
like every other worker, have a right to safe working 
conditions.''
    Cannabis banking is an equity issue. Equity in this 
emerging industry is an empty and hollow phrase unless it is 
made real and meaningful to the majority of the working people 
living in these communities that were harmed by the war on 
drugs. A regular paycheck goes hand-in-hand with good wages, 
quality, affordable healthcare, and a secure retirement, all 
things that are central to what UFCW negotiates for, for its 
members, and they come with a good union contract.
    The emerging cannabis industry presents an unparalleled 
opportunity for Government to shape an industry from the ground 
up. There are many potential paths for cannabis, but not all 
paths benefit workers in the industry. A 2021 Economic Policy 
Institute report analyzed a high road and a low-road scenario 
for the future of the cannabis industry. Under the low-road 
scenario, cannabis workers are subject to the same harmful 
practices inflicted on workers in similar agricultural 
settings. And under the high road scenario, unionization 
ensures that cannabis jobs are good jobs.
Access to banking is part of the high road scenario for 
cannabis workers.
    Cannabis workers do not deserve to be treated as criminals 
and should not have to struggle with financial and legal 
ambiguity on the job. On behalf of all workers in the cannabis 
industry, we urge Congress to give the same access to financial 
systems and Federal benefits that all other Americans already 
enjoy.
    Thank you for the opportunity to testify, and I would be 
happy to answer your questions.
    Chair Brown. Thank you, Mr. Oyefeso.
    Mr. Sabet.

     STATEMENT OF KEVIN A. SABET, PRESIDENT AND CEO, SMART 
      APPROACHES TO MARIJUANA, AND FELLOW, YALE UNIVERSITY

    Mr. Sabet. Thank you, Mr. Chairman and Ranking Member 
Scott. I did notice that there were five proponents for this 
bill, and while I will not ask for equal time, if you do not 
mind I have about a 5- or 6-minute oral remarks. Thank you.
    So given the obvious and widespread problems in the banking 
industry, I have got to say I am a little surprised that we are 
discussing this particular issue today, at a time when our 
Nation is in danger of defaulting on our debt for the first 
time in our history, when we have an overdose epidemic in this 
country that is only getting worse, and frankly, the banking 
industry is quaking after recent failures.
    I should note the hearing also comes right in the middle of 
the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services' National 
Prevention Week, at a time when suicide rates for young people 
are off the charts, mental health challenges are worse than 
ever before, and frankly, insurance companies are getting away 
with murder by not covering mental illness the way they do 
physical illness.
    The idea that this Committee decided to spend its time 
turbocharging the marijuana industry right now, given 
everything else going on, I think is unfortunate. And we are 
spending your important time talking about how we can turn our 
kids into a great national experiment, an experiment rigged 
toward addiction, misery, and our next public health calamity.
    But because we are here, let me briefly state why this bill 
is not what we need right now. Number one, today's marijuana is 
more dangerous than ever, and this bill would open up the 
marijuana industry to Wall Street hedge fund managers and 
Silicon Valley
investors who will create even more hazardous products to get 
them in the hands of even more Americans.
    Number two, the bill would open the U.S. financial system 
to activity from transnational criminal organizations who 
intend to harm Americans.
    And number three, it purports to fix essentially a fake 
problem. Today's marijuana businesses are not dealing primarily 
in cash. There are hundreds and hundreds of banks working with 
pot businesses.
    So issue one, let's be honest, today's marijuana is not 
about Woodstock weed. It is not about 3 to 4 percent THC. It is 
more about these problems that I am entering in an appendix in 
my written testimony, these edibles, these candies, these 
cereals, these concentrates, these waxes, 99 percent, 
supercharged THC, that has a deleterious effect on both 
physical and mental health. Imagine what this would look like 
with even more big investors.
    And frankly, you can take it from your former colleague on 
the other side, former Speaker John Boehner, one of the biggest 
proponents of marijuana today, who has said, quote, ``I was on 
the board of a major tobacco company''--Reynolds. ``Do you 
think tobacco is staying on the sidelines? I have talked to 
these guys. They are not going to sit this one out, and they 
have the dollars to acquire whoever they want.''
    That may make big banks, Big Tobacco, Big Alcohol very 
happy, but it will mean more high-potency products in our 
schools and neighborhoods. A drug that is now responsible for a 
third of all schizophrenia cases in young men. According to a 
very large Danish study that was just released earlier this 
week, the number one substance found in youth suicide, 
marijuana, not alcohol, the number one drug for youth going to 
treatment today, because of supercharged marijuana. There are, 
in fact, more daily marijuana users now than alcohol users, a 
number that we would have considered unfathomable 10 years ago.
    These increases we have seen in States like Colorado 
include 1,000 percent increases in emergency room admissions 
for psychosis, schizophrenia, Cannabis Hyperemesis Syndrome, 
which is uncontrollable vomiting, other physical ailments, and 
we have marijuana stores very carelessly recommending, for 
example, according to one study, 70 percent of pot shops 
recommending marijuana to pregnant women, something no medical 
association would endorse. In fact, if we were up here with 
every medical association, almost everyone in this country 
opposes the legalization and normalization of marijuana, which 
I think this bill will expedite.
    Issue two, this bill would give banks cover for federally 
illegal transactions. That is why the better name for this 
legislation, I think, is the ``Addiction Banking Act''. This is 
both a legal and financial bailout that will buttress the 
banking system at the expense of public health. It will 
increase money laundering by transnational criminal 
organizations, giving them access to shell corporations within 
the United States. It will empower further foreign cartels who 
are already targeting kids and communities of color that are 
victimized by this industry.
    Let's be frank here. Banks have a horrible track record 
when it comes to money laundering with other illegal drugs like 
fentanyl. That is why five former drug czars, including a few 
of my former bosses, in both Republican and Democratic 
administrations, oppose this, and I have entered that in my 
written statement as well.
    And as many of you have likely heard from law enforcement 
in your communities, cartel activity now is booming in legal 
States. California Governor Gavin Newsom declared a state of 
emergency to contend with cartel activity in the marijuana 
market, which now dominates about 80 percent of that market. We 
should not be fooled this will help when we open up this 
illegal industry to the banks.
    And finally, issue three. The U.S. Treasury Department says 
that marijuana businesses currently work with over 800 banks in 
this country. Multiple State regulatory bodies, including 
Colorado, on the record, have admitted that marijuana 
businesses are being banked by State-regulated banks and credit 
unions.
    We did our own investigation at SAM, the organization I 
founded with former Congressman Patrick Kennedy, because we do 
see this as a nonpartisan issue. Our own investigation found 
that pot shops were more than willing to take debit and credit 
cards and other noncash means.
    I have to say one final note as I conclude. As someone who 
worked in the Obama administration most recently and is 
dedicated to making sure our drug laws are up to date, evidence 
informed, and equitable, we are not calling to arrest workers 
or arrest users of marijuana, throw them in prison, and 
increase criminal justice. But on the other hand, why would we 
normalize and commercialize today's super-strength marijuana, 
at a time when fewer than 2 percent of marijuana businesses are 
owned by people of color, when disparity of arrests is still 
happening in legalized States. In fact, young marijuana arrests 
in some legal States are going up, not down. When people like 
John Boehner represent the industry, and groups like the NAACP 
Illinois are our partner, warning us of persistent inequities 
in neighborhoods saturated with pot shops the way they are 
already inundated with liquor stores and the like. I think we 
would be fanning the flames on the addiction crisis that is 
staring us right in the face.
    The ``Addiction Banking Act'' would reward the industry for 
sidelining and targeting communities of color, so I urge you, 
Members of the Committee, to do the right thing and not make it 
even easier to normalize and commercialize this very new 
substance, today's super-strength THC, and not make the same 
mistake as we have with other addictive industries in the past.
    The fundamental question before us today is whether we 
should promote and normalize drug use during an overdose and 
addiction crisis or discourage it by helping people get 
treatment, achieve full recovery, and discourage use among 
youth, of all drugs.
    Let's remember that it took us almost 100 years to reverse 
the public health impacts of the tobacco industry, who 
continually cast doubt on public health advocates with 
industry-funded bunk science. We have an opportunity today to 
not repeat those mistakes.
    Thank you for your time, and I am happy to answer any 
questions.
    Chair Brown. Ms. Sullivan is recognized from a remote 
location.

   STATEMENT OF MICHELLE SULLIVAN, CHIEF RISK AND COMPLIANCE 
                    OFFICER, DAMA FINANCIAL

    Ms. Sullivan. Chairman Brown, Ranking Member Scott, and the 
esteemed Members of the Committee, my name is Michelle 
Sullivan, and I am the Chief Risk and Compliance Officer for 
Dama Financial. I am honored to testify before this Committee 
to share my experiences and lessons learned in cannabis banking 
as well as my opinion on the SAFE Banking Act. I have spent my 
career in banking, risk management and compliance, and most 
recently with a regional bank in Kansas City, Missouri, before 
joining Dama in 2017.
    Dama is the largest and the first end-to-end provider of 
banking and payment solutions for legal cannabis businesses in 
the United States. Today, we partner with banks which allows 
our clients a single relationship with multiple financial 
solutions. This includes everything from access to banking and 
merchant services to cash management, payments, POS, and 
inventory management solutions, to also include solutions for 
their employees.
    Dama was founded in 2016, to provide banking access to 
licensed cannabis-related businesses with a compliance-first 
approach following the provisions outlined in the ``Cole Memo'' 
of February 14, 2014, as well the FinCEN Guidance, BSA/AML 
requirements, and all applicable Federal and State laws.
    Dama partners with banks that would like to provide access 
to banking but do not always have the resources or expertise to 
run a high-risk, cash extensive business and/or banking program 
on their own.
    Dama has developed the gold standard of compliance 
frameworks to ensure we know our customers through enhanced due 
diligence, onboarding, and continued oversight. We do so in a 
safe and sound manner to minimize the risk of money laundering 
by preventing illegal operators and illicit cash from creating 
vulnerabilities in our financial ecosystem.
    To understand the true source of funds, Dama goes beyond 
the high-risk banking requirements of Federal law by doing the 
following: drilling down to 10 percent of ownership under the 
UBO rule and performing onsite inspections and risk assessments 
that encompass inherent and residual risk throughout the 
lifecycle of the relationship. We reject a fair number of 
businesses from qualifying for our services because they are 
not transparent with us or they do not meet our diligent 
standards.
    Because of these experiences, we believe the SAFE Banking 
Act should be stronger and encompass a more stringent statutory 
framework. We cannot simply rely on existing guidance without 
more robust legislation from Congress. It is quite possible 
that banking standards could be more lax after the passage of 
the SAFE Banking Act than there is today.
    If Congress gives financial institutions a ``safe harbor'' 
to provide services to cannabis-related businesses, it must 
provide a tougher framework than the existing guidance. At a 
minimum, a financial institution should follow enhanced rules 
regarding board-approved risk limits, deposit ratios, and 
reporting criteria when limits are approached or breached, in 
addition to technology and staffing expertise. We must also 
include due diligence and ongoing monitoring requirements, 
especially as it pertains to cash deposits and legacy cash.
    We also believe there is serious potential for confusion in 
the banking industry following the passage of this legislation 
the way it is currently written. Will the cash truly get out of 
the system? We do know that credit card companies have policies 
against banking illegal products which may prohibit cannabis 
transactions running across those rails even after the SAFE 
Banking Act passes. Without solving the larger 
decriminalization issues, we worry that the passage of the SAFE 
Banking Act alone could actually provide worse problems and a 
sense of resolution while huge conflicts at the Federal level 
still exist. This will make it difficult for some financial 
institutions to proceed.
    Last, as Congress wrestles with this issue, we think it 
should do so with a clear understanding of the opportunities 
for cannabis banking today. This problem is not as dire as it 
once was. According to FinCEN, there are over 700 financial 
intuitions that work with legal cannabis businesses. Every 
company that meets the risk standards that I have briefly laid 
out should have access to a banking solution in America. In my 
opinion, we should pause and provide more teeth to the existing 
bill to protect the financial and banking industry as a whole.
    We are happy that Congress is having this hearing today. We 
believe that Congress should study these issues very carefully 
before moving forward. We look forward to answering your 
questions and working with Senators from both parties to 
resolve the cannabis banking issues our country is facing. 
Thank you.
    Chair Brown. Thank you, Ms. Sullivan.
    Ms. Packer, welcome.

  STATEMENT OF CAT PACKER, VICE CHAIR, CANNABIS REGULATORS OF 
                        COLOR COALITION

    Ms. Packer. Good morning, Chairman Brown, Ranking Member 
Scott, and Members of this Committee. I am honored to be 
addressing you for today's hearing. My name is Cat Packer, and 
I serve as the Vice Chair of the Cannabis Regulators of Color 
Coalition, the Director of Drug Markets and Legal Regulation 
for the Drug Policy Alliance, a cannabis policy practitioner in 
residence at the Ohio State University Moritz College of Law, 
Drug Enforcement and Policy Center, and an advisor to the 
Parabola Center on Law and Policy. I also had the opportunity 
to serve as the first Executive Director of the city of Los 
Angeles Department of Cannabis Regulation, where from 2017 
until last year, I led the city's efforts to license and 
regulate commercial cannabis activity.
    I first hope to contextualize the topic of today's hearing 
within the larger scope of challenges experienced by Americans 
across this Nation due to cannabis prohibition and 
criminalization. While small businesses and workers in State 
legal cannabis industries should not be treated like criminals, 
providing protections to financial institutions, as the SAFE 
Banking Act would, may be a first step to addressing banking 
challenges, but it would not change the fact that small 
businesses and workers in the cannabis industry will still be 
considered criminal under Federal law, nor would it end the 
country's failed approach to marijuana or address the harms of 
cannabis criminalization and related collateral consequences, 
nor would it address related concerns and challenges of 
researchers, doctors, patients, veterans, immigrants, 
consumers, or State and local governments. In order to address 
these issues we need both Congress and the President to take 
actions on more comprehensive reform.
    Access to financial services is a basic necessity for any 
small business. During my time as a local regulator, I worked 
closely with businesses who continuously shared with me the 
challenges caused by unfair access to cannabis banking. Many 
small businesses and participants in the city's Social Equity 
Program described a lack of access to capital, specifically 
commercial loans and SBA access, as their number one barrier, 
not only to entering the legal market but also to being able to 
compete once licensed.
    And while I know the city of Los Angeles has a unique 
market for a number of different reasons, I know that there are 
other States that share these concerns and challenges, and 
these challenges are shared by regulators across the country 
whose licensees all struggle with inequitable access to 
capital, and regulators see access to banking as an opportunity 
to promote public safety, economic opportunity, and support the 
implementation of an effective regulatory system.
    While access to banking is an important issue for many 
stakeholders, small businesses, workers, and State and local 
regulators alike, there is no better example than the existing 
banking industry to illustrate the reality that access to 
banking is not necessarily fair access to banking. In 2021, a 
Brookings Institution report found that Black individuals and 
businesses faced marked disparities compared to their White 
counterparts and access to banking services, and deposits, 
mortgage credit, and small business loans.
    Moreover, a 2021 Federal Reserve report found that Black- 
and Latino-owned businesses were less than half as likely as 
their White counterparts to be fully approved for loan 
applications during the last year.
    Last summer, with the support of Ohio State University, the 
Cannabis Regulators of Color Coalition published a paper that 
called out the difference between expanded access and fair 
access, and I am happy to see that after spending last year 
working with stakeholders and leaders, folks are making efforts 
to ensure that the SAFE Banking Act does not just provide 
protections for financial institutions, but that it includes 
minor and technical changes to ensure that banking access is 
fair. That is, after all, what the F in SAFE stands for.
    I ask that you refer to my written remarks for more 
comprehensive details about how minor technical amendments to 
the SAFE Banking Act can make the bill and cannabis banking 
more fair. But I would like to provide one quick example that 
illustrates how SAFE can be further improved to promote 
fairness.
    Existing guidance from Federal banking regulators considers 
criminal records a red flag or an automatic indication that a 
business may be engaged in illegal activity. One of our 
recommendations is to ensure that this updated guidance clarify 
that cannabis criminal records, specifically those that have 
been expunged or are for activity that has been pardoned or is 
no longer prohibited under State law, are not automatically 
considered red flags. Addressing this issue would allow SAFE to 
better promote fairness.
    It is true that small businesses and workers cannot afford 
to continue to be shut out of banking, but it is also true that 
they cannot afford for the disparities in traditional banking 
to become the new norm for cannabis banking, and moreover, 
communities all across America cannot afford for the harms of 
cannabis criminalization to continue unchecked.
    Thank you for your time and consideration, and I look 
forward to working with the Committee and Congress as we build 
momentum to address not only the challenge of cannabis banking 
but all of the challenges caused by the failed policy of 
cannabis criminalization. Thank you.
    Chair Brown. Thank you very much, Ms. Packer.
    The questions will begin by Senator Reed.
    Senator Reed. Well first let me thank the Chairman and the 
Ranking Member for the courtesy. Thank you all for your 
testimony.
    This SAFE Banking Act, in the popular image, is focused on 
cannabis sales and financing involving those sales. But there 
is one section in the bill, Section 10, that does not apply 
exclusively to cannabis. It would apply to any entity that is 
engaged with the bank, a company, or a customer. And it would 
make it more difficult for Federal regulators to raise the 
alarm about relationships with any customer that presents 
significant risks to the bank. And, as I said, it is not 
limited to the marijuana industry--cannabis industry--so it 
could allow pyramid schemes or all sorts of other interesting 
activity to go on without an effective response by the 
regulator.
    In addition, Section 10 would require a bank to provide a 
notice to a customer when the Federal Government suspects they 
may be engaging in illegal activity. That is like warning 
people to get out of town, and take the money and run, I think, 
is the popular image. And it has drawn some criticism, not all, 
some criticism, but significant criticism from consumer groups.
    Mr. Chairman, I would request unanimous consent to 
introduce a letter from the Americans for Financial Reform, 
Consumer Action, Consumer Federation of America, National 
Association of Consumer Advocates, the National Consumer Law 
Center, and the National Consumers League.
    Chair Brown. Without objection, so ordered.
    Senator Reed. Thank you.
    All of that being said, Ms. Packer, you had very thoughtful 
comments in your testimony regarding technical amendments, the 
Act, et cetera, to improve it. And would it be sensible, in 
your view, to limit the scope of this Act simply to the 
cannabis industry and not have this wide-open restraint on 
Federal regulation?
    Ms. Packer. Thank you, Senator. I have to be frank in that 
my expertise and engagement with this bar has been on cannabis 
banking. That being said, this hearing today is about cannabis 
banking. This bill is supposed to be about cannabis banking. 
And for that reason I think if there is an intent to use the 
bill to do something else then maybe it is appropriate for 
another bill.
    Senator Reed. I think that is great. In fact, I think your 
reaction is probably the reaction of everyone, saying this is 
all about cannabis banking, and suddenly we have a provision 
that would stop a regulator from going to a bank and 
questioning a relationship with a customer who may be a 
surrogate of a foreign power that is doing things here we do 
not like to be doing.
    And so I would hope that we could look very carefully at 
this. I think the trajectory that is designed to provide 
reforms for cannabis is appropriate. We have a little more work 
to do. But I think this is definitely something that we can 
narrow considerably.
    And with that, Mr. Chairman, thank you again for your 
kindness, and I yield.
    Chair Brown. Thank you, Senator Reed.
    Senator Scott is recognized.
    Senator Scott. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Ms. Sullivan, thank you for your testimony today. Given 
your role as the Chief Risk and Compliance Officer at Dama, it 
seems that you are very familiar with compliance and risk 
regimes when it comes to safe banking. Can you walk me through, 
if the SAFE Banking Act were to become law, how the current 
safe harbor for financial services institutions would work?
    Ms. Sullivan. Thank you. If the SAFE Banking Act, the way 
it was written today, was pushed forward, the concern would be 
is that there would not be steps to ensure that financial 
services that would be provided to cannabis-related businesses 
would be legitimate. There would not be proper governance and 
controls in place, that financial services would have to ensure 
that they were doing, to include really addressing some of the 
major things that we focus on, and a lot of the other financial 
institutions in the industry today focus on, which is legacy 
cash.
    We also know that credit card networks do not allow 
cannabis transactions today. We know merchant acquirers are 
establishing fictitious names, such as flower shops, to process 
these transactions. So money laundering is happening. And 
really, honestly, it is going to dilute the standards that many 
in the industry are performing today.
    Senator Scott. Thank you. One final question for you. In 
your testimony you discussed requirements to ensure that banks 
have the appropriate risk controls and processes in place if 
they were to bank cannabis. Can you give a little more detail 
on what those requirements would look like? You started to talk 
about the legacy cash and other issues. I would love for you to 
continue that conversation.
    Ms. Sullivan. Absolutely. So with our program and with what 
our recommendations are, we would like to see that financial 
institutions really have to have a strong and robust framework. 
They need to really work with their board to make sure they 
have board-approved risk limits. Their deposit ratios versus 
their total deposits need to be within line so they do not have 
a concentration. Legacy cash, for example, all legacy cash 
deposits must provide documented evidence of the source and the 
origination of that ownership, to include any evidentiary 
documentation for those cannabis transactions.
    What is important to note is just because cash gets banked, 
it does not mean that money laundering is not occurring. If 
financial institutions are not taking their role and 
responsibility to know who their customers are, ensure that 
they understand where the source of funds are coming from, and 
do the continued due diligence and transaction monitoring that 
has to be done in this industry, it would be a money 
launderer's holiday if banks are not going to take this 
position seriously.
    Senator Scott. Thank you. Dr. Sabet, you talked about 
synthetic marijuana and the impact it has on the brain, some of 
the challenges that we have. I would love to hear a little bit 
more about that, and in my minute and 47 seconds I am going to 
ask you a compound question. The second part is can you explain 
your concerns about the impact of cartel activity in the United 
States as it relates to safe banking allowing for perhaps more 
fentanyl to flow through.
    Mr. Sabet. Yes, absolutely. So what I am concerned with is 
the active ingredient in marijuana, THC. Marijuana has hundreds 
of ingredients in it. It is a very complex plant. But we know 
that THC acts on receptors throughout the brain and the rest of 
our body that regulate a whole host of activity--coordination, 
reward, in memory. That is why marijuana can be addictive. In 
fact, one-in-three Americans who used in the last year, 
according to all the studies, fall under what we call a 
cannabis use disorder or addiction.
    And so when that THC enters that brain, especially as that 
brain is developing, you know, 25-, 30-years old--21 is 
political number. It is not a scientific number when we have 
age limits of 21. It is really 25 or even 30. And so it has the 
ability to really affect that person as that brain is growing, 
as that brain is developing.
    So now we have learned how to genetically breed marijuana 
to increase that THC to levels we could not have imagined 10- 
or 15-years ago. The fact that so much of the industry is 
selling these high potency concentrates that can be up to, they 
claim, 99.9 percent THC shatter, or these waxes, you know, 
these are products that did not exist before this industry 
started. It is really interesting. You know, not that what we 
had before was great either, obviously, with transnational 
organizations running the whole thing. But this legal industry 
has innovated in such a way that they have created kid-friendly 
products. The gummy bears, the candies, the concentrates, it 
never existed before legalization.
    The second part of your question about the underground 
market, you know, I really do worry about the ability of 
cartels and transnational criminal groups to take advantage. 
They are already taking advantage of the system. Illegal 
marijuana markets have grown in legal States, not shrunken. 
People might say, well, why is that? We legalized something. 
Why would we have that? We have that because the demand goes 
way up. It is normalized, commercialized, it is pushed on 
social media. That is why I wish Congress would actually 
recommence an anti-drug media campaign in social media for kids 
to understand the true facts. Not, you know, ``Reefer Madness'' 
and scare tactics, but the true facts about marijuana, because 
this industry advertises.
    And so as the demand goes up, the Government cannot fill 
that demand. The Government has regulations, taxes, et cetera. 
The illegal market is very happy to come in much cheaper and 
not follow those regulations.
    In fact, as you know, cartels, they are making money from a 
diverse set of industries, not just one drug or one thing.
    Senator Scott. Wrap up.
    Mr. Sabet. Human trafficking, et cetera, it is all mixed 
together. So I would be concerned about the cartels.
    Senator Scott. Thank you.
    Chair Brown. Thank you, Senator Scott.
    Dr. Sabet, since I gave you 2 extra minutes at the 
beginning I would like a yes or no answer on this. Your 
organization states that removing criminal penalties for 
possession is a must as part of a comprehensive marijuana 
policy. Do you stand by that statement?
    Mr. Sabet. Absolutely.
    Chair Brown. OK. Thank you. Mr. Oyefeso, thank you for 
joining us. I want workers in small businesses in my State to 
be able to have access to financial services. I want small 
banks and credit unions to provide that in a way that is 
equitable and affordable. I am worried about large companies 
and Wall Street firms dominating this industry. We have made 
that very clear to supporters of this bill.
    Do you share that concern? Why is it good for workers and 
small businesses to have a fair and competitive market?
    Mr. Oyefeso. Simple answer, yes, I do share that concern. A 
competitive market allows wages to grow. If there is heavy 
consolidation in the industry you will end up with a few 
companies able to regulate and control the salaries, the wages, 
and the benefits of all of these workers and the pricing of the 
products for consumers. So having this bill pass allows more 
companies to open up and allows workers the ability to 
negotiate a better wage and benefits package.
    Chair Brown. Thank you. Borrowers, especially first-time 
home buyers and veterans, use federally backed loans from 
programs from the VA and FHA that finance their homes. Talk 
about the barriers of employees that legal cannabis businesses 
face when they are trying to buy a home. You mentioned that 
just briefly. Expand that a bit. How does this bill help 
address those barriers?
    Mr. Oyefeso. I will use an example of Miranda Beck, who 
works in a Starbuds in Maryland, in Baltimore, Maryland. Her 
and her colleagues get paid in cash, and beyond the risk of 
being robbed when they are getting paid, they also have to now 
provide proof of employment. But they are being paid in cash, 
so they do not have proof of employment. So when you are trying 
to get a home and/or rent an apartment, whichever it may be, 
you cannot go to a mortgage lender and say, ``Here is my proof 
of employment. Here is my salary. Here is my W-2,'' or to a 
landlord and say, ``Here is my proof of employment. Please rent 
me the apartment.''
    So they are completely at a disadvantage in moving up the 
ladder of life just because the industry is legal in the State 
of Maryland, but it is not federally legal, and the employer is 
not fully banked. So while there are 700 to 800 banks that do 
business throughout the country, cannabis is legal in just 
about every State in the union, and 700 to 800 is minuscule 
when you are a worker sitting in the heart of Baltimore, in 
Brooklyn, New York, in Cleveland, Ohio, if you have to travel 
10, 12 miles to reach your bank.
    Chair Brown. Thank you. Ms. Packer, you spent 5 years as a 
cannabis regulator. What were the challenges that the 
Government faced when it came to banking, and what about small 
businesses?
    Ms. Packer. Thank you, Chairman Brown. I described a 
situation earlier where even trying to create small business 
assistance for our city's Social Equity Program was a 
challenge. But even things like the collection of taxes and 
fees and other regulatory
responsibilities are extraordinarily complicated by an abnormal 
banking environment.
    I will give you an example of what was happening in the 
city of Los Angeles. To handle the cash-intensive nature of the 
cannabis industry, the city of Los Angeles had to have a 
specific Cannabis Cash Collection Unit at our City Hall. And 
anyone who wanted to make an appointment over $1,000 had to do 
so in person. This was a headache for small businesses, having 
to come in person to make just regular tax payments, regular 
fee payments, and for the city of Los Angeles this was not a 
small issue. In fiscal year 2022, the city of Los Angeles 
accepted over $26.3 million in cash.
    Chair Brown. Talk to me about community-based institutions, 
including MDIs and CDFIs. How are they important to promote 
fairness in cannabis banking and in the broader industry?
    Ms. Packer. I appreciate that there has been an intention 
to include CDFIs and MDIs in the 2023 version of SAFE. It is 
critically important for these particular institutions to be 
able to have access to the safe harbor. These are institutions 
that regularly provide financial services to Black and Brown 
communities. They are specifically serving communities that are 
designated as socially vulnerable and prone to economic health 
and safety challenge. And given that they are literally serving 
the same communities that were targeted by the war on drugs, it 
is essential for them to receive this safe harbor and to be 
able to participate in providing services.
    Chair Brown. Thank you.
    Senator Daines, of Montana, is recognized.
    Senator Daines. Chairman Brown, thank you. Before I get 
started I want to recognize Congressman Joyce, a colleague on 
the House side, has been instrumental in getting this done. I 
am grateful for his leadership and a big thank you.
    I would also like to ask unanimous consent to submit a few 
statements and letters of support into the record, if I could, 
Mr. Chairman.
    Chair Brown. Without objection, so ordered.
    Senator Daines. Thank you. I would also like to begin my 
time by addressing the human factor of this equation. Mr. 
Oyefeso, I think you are probably as good a witness on this as 
any, on this particular topic, because in your testimony you 
touched upon the physical dangers, including being robbed at 
gunpoint. Cannabis workers are facing danger because they and 
their employer are forced to operate primarily in cash under 
the current system.
    From what you have heard from your members, is the 
situation on the ground getting safer or more dangerous for 
cannabis employees and the public?
    Mr. Oyefeso. It is not safer. It is getting more dangerous, 
because people, as we have heard, more and more people are 
going to these stores, so criminals now realize there are more 
and more possibilities of robbing large amounts of cash. So now 
workers, if your dispensary does not have a security team, you 
know, people with guns standing there, you have to worry that 
when you are closing at night are people going to rush in and 
rob you.
    We have had members who, you know, if you are getting paid 
in cash, if a former worker knows the payday and you are 
getting paid in cash, you are going home, and we have members 
who are pharmacists at cannabis dispensaries who make $68 an 
hour. So these are good jobs when they are organized, and they 
can go home with $2,000 and worry about, I am holding $2,000 
cash in my pocket, where the rest of us get paid and it is 
direct deposited into our banks. So there is your weekly take-
home that you could lose in a night. There is your life you can 
lose. You go to work, you have a good job, you want to go home 
to your family, and because it is not banked you have that risk 
every night.
    Senator Daines. I mentioned in my own testimony, to think 
about even the employees of these businesses, when you think 
about the other businesses that serve these businesses, the 
tradesmen and women. I mean, if they are going to fix a leaky 
pipe or fix a wire, that transaction is going to occur in cash. 
So the subcontractors that might be trying to do some work with 
these legal businesses are also put at risk. So thank you for 
your testimony.
    I would like to switch gears and touch on the current 
cannabis landscape across the United States. Over the past 
decade, 22 States have legalized the medical use of cannabis, 
which 20 of these States have taken the additional step of 
legalizing recreational use, and that includes my home State of 
Montana.
    Cannabis use is decriminalized in some form in 47 States 
and the District of Columbia. While I personally voted against 
legalizing recreational use--and here is kind of a part of 
politics--I won my re-election 55 to 45 in Montana, while the 
ballot initiative passed 57 to 43. I recognize and appreciate 
the reality that we face, and that reality is a legal patchwork 
that just does not work for banks, for businesses, or for law 
enforcement.
    Mr. Sabet, has any State that has legalized cannabis, 
either medicinally or recreationally, taken any steps to 
recriminalize it?
    Mr. Sabet. Yes. Actually, in 1990, when Alaska 
decriminalized marijuana, they recriminalized it soon after 
because of the negative effects. We have also seen lately 
States trying to get a handle on THC content and trying to 
limit that. But with this industry and the lobbyists and the 
people behind it, it is very difficult to do that. Because like 
in your State, as you know, Senator, the pro side is 
outspending the teachers and the parents something like 20 to 
1, so it is very difficult to do that.
    I will say----
    Senator Daines. You used the example of Alaska. What is the 
status of----
    Mr. Sabet. Well, then Alaska, after spending $5 million, 
legalized in 2012----
    Senator Daines. I just want to make sure you paint the 
accurate picture. It is a fact what you stated. But I think we 
really want to state the truth and the whole picture.
    Mr. Sabet. Oh yeah, sure.
    Senator Daines. They also then--I mean, maybe we just want 
to put that in the record as well, please.
    Mr. Sabet. Yes. So what has happened on the local level, 
though, I think is very important. The majority of localities 
in most legal States have outright banned the sales of 
marijuana. So you have the majority--not all legal States have 
done that, but the vast majority of legal States, where they 
voted for it State-wise, at the local community level, when 
people are asked, ``Do you want a marijuana store in your Main 
Street, or whatever, in your community,'' according to the 
League of Cities and many other sources, we know that, for 
example--Ms. Packer would know better about California. It used 
to be 70-some percent. I do not know what it is now. But the 
vast majority of these localities have actually voted against 
that.
    Senator Daines. Mr. Sabet, in your testimony you cite an 
article from Bloomberg suggesting that cannabis businesses have 
widespread access to banking services. However, I pointed out 
in my testimony that only 9 percent of financial institutions 
offer banking services, and we heard the totality. The article 
you cite also states that, and I quote, ``such estimates may 
overstate the real number, many say, because they would include 
institutions that have only temporarily worked with cannabis 
companies,'' end quote.
    My question is this. Do you have any data that would 
suggest that cannabis businesses have easy and widespread 
access to financial services? Because the story here from both 
businesses and then financial institutions is quite different.
    Chair Brown. Please be very brief.
    Mr. Sabet. So the two points of data would be the U.S. 
Department of Treasury, and I think it is in my statement that 
talks about it. The second one would be the on-the-record 
statements of regulatory bodies in States like Colorado that 
talk about the local banks and the co-ops, et cetera.
    Senator Daines. OK. Thank you.
    Chair Brown. Thank you, Senator Daines.
    Senator Cortez Masto, of Nevada, is recognized.
    Senator Cortez Masto. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank 
you and the Ranking Member for having this hearing. It is such 
an important bill that I hope we have the ability to pass in a 
bipartisan way.
    Let me start with, is it Mr. Oyefeso, and Ms. Packer. The 
Secure and Fair Enforcement Act, or the SAFE Act, as we are all 
talking about today, which finally would allow cannabis 
businesses full access to the U.S. banking center. Right now 
legitimate cannabis businesses all over Nevada are hurting 
because they cannot access traditional banking. My office heard 
from one business owner in Las Vegas who said that the lack of 
access to banking creates logistical headaches and puts her and 
her employees at risk. Her business has to deposit large 
amounts of cash at local banks, often at more than one bank in 
the same day because of cash deposit limits. This is burdensome 
and, quite frankly, dangerous.
    Last year, after one of those deposit runs, this business 
owner's car was broken into, and fearing that whoever had 
broken into her car now knew from her bank deposit slips that 
she carried large amounts of cash, her coworkers bought her a 
taser, and she keeps it by her bed at night to feel safe.
    Now this is outrageous. Banks already accept the money that 
legitimate marijuana businesses pay contractors and security 
firms, and it is just common sense that they should serve the 
actual businesses too.
    So there has been a lot of support for the SAFE Act, 
bipartisan support. It passed out of the House of 
Representatives seven times. Thirty-eight State and territory 
attorneys general have called for SAFE to pass.
    So let me just ask this question. We had nearly $700 
million in total sales last year in Nevada. What are the 
consequences for owners and employees operating as mostly an 
all-cash business? And Mr. Oyefeso, let me start with you.
    Mr. Oyefeso. The simple answer is death. In an industry 
that has $700 million in cash in Nevada, we have members in 
your State in the cannabis industry. It is a constant fear of 
if I am depositing money, what happens? If I am going home with 
cash from my pay period, what happens to me? You have a steady 
flow of customers. I have been to dispensaries in Nevada. You 
have a steady flow of customers, whether it is people who live 
there, coming from different parts, or visitors. And everyone 
knows you are dealing in cash, so there is a constant worry of 
what you are carrying, what you are leaving with.
    And you also have the problem for delivery workers. In some 
States, you can deliver cannabis. So now you have an individual 
who is making deliveries, who everyone knows is carrying cash. 
And, you know, I am a New Yorker. Delivery drivers always had 
to worry in the 1980s and 1990s about cash. Now if you are 
delivering food it is done through one of the apps, but for 
cannabis it is not. So you worry about I am just doing a run 
and someone could rob me or hurt me.
    Senator Cortez Masto. So Nevada has the second most sales 
per capita, just behind Colorado, and this is a concern I hear 
from businesses all the time. Not only are they concerned about 
their safety, but the concern about their workers, the concern 
at the end of the day also that a lot of their overhead goes 
into security, just because they are an all-cash business.
    Ms. Packer, what would be the long-term consequences for 
businesses and workers of not passing the SAFE Act, that we 
have not talked about already?
    Ms. Packer. Yes. I think what has been articulated by many 
businesses is that they literally just cannot afford to 
continue to pay the high fees, to be at risk; and that is part 
of the reason why the organizations that I work with have been 
advocating for fair access. It is important that as we move 
this bill forward that we do not continue to have categories of 
folks who are going to be dealing in just cash. There is a real 
opportunity to ensure that we are bringing everyone into the 
banking system that provides oversight as a regulator. That is 
critically important.
    For the workers, in particular, there is a real opportunity 
for us to ensure that they are just treated like normal 
businesses. There is a real concern that we are going to allow 
stigma to continue in this space as well.
    Senator Cortez Masto. I appreciate that. Let me ask this 
question, and briefly. I only have about 16 seconds left here. 
Many business owners, parents, and members of local law 
enforcement have expressed concerns about the proliferation of 
the gray market. There is no doubt tied to the cost consumers 
pay for cannabis is a result of the exorbitant fees and unusual 
expenses businesses have to pay to function, like hiring 
armored cars, that I talked about. But can you talk to me about 
the gray market? Can you define that for me?
    Ms. Packer. Yes, and I appreciate you asking me the 
question because I have had conversations with folks about what 
we use as the term. I encourage folks not to use the term 
``black market.'' I know we have heard folks use this term 
before. We do not want to equate ``black'' with illegal.
    But part of the reality is that this increases a safety 
concern. There are businesses in the city of Los Angeles, for 
example, particularly I am talking specifically about 
unlicensed, unregulated businesses, and that is how I would 
define them. They are outside of the regulatory scope. But they 
are going to continue to engage in cash. And for some of the 
businesses that we engage with in the city of Los Angeles is 
primary law enforcement, you had illegal cannabis businesses 
that were looking to try and set up and rob legal cannabis 
businesses.
    Senator Cortez Masto. Thank you. I notice my time is up. 
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Chair Brown. Thank you, Senator Cortez Masto.
    Senator Warren, of Massachusetts, is recognized.
    Senator Warren. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    So I think the SAFE Banking Act is a long-overdue step to 
help legal cannabis businesses in Massachusetts and all across 
the country be able, finally, to open bank accounts, accept 
credit cards, and access other basic banking services. 
Businesses need these services to operate safely and 
successfully, and workers need the protection from safety risks 
of working in cash-only businesses.
    So I look forward to working with my colleagues to pass 
this bill, but it cannot be the end of our work on marijuana 
policy. That is because as long as marijuana remains 
criminalized federally, we are not fully fixing the problem. If 
people can still get busted for purchasing marijuana, many 
banks will find it too risky to serve legal cannabis 
businesses, no matter whether we tell them it is technically 
OK.
    Now I pushed the Administration to use its administrative 
authority to deschedule marijuana. Like my friend and neighbor, 
Dr. Sabet, said in his opening testimony, no one should be 
incarcerated just because they got caught with a joint. The 
White House has directed HHS and DOJ to review how marijuana is 
scheduled. That will affect research going forward and what we 
come to understand about it. But we need to see those agencies 
act.
    Ms. Packer, you have years of experience in the cannabis 
industry, both as a regulator and as a drug reform advocate. 
Would fully decriminalizing marijuana at the Federal level help 
ensure that small businesses get full access to safe, formal 
financial services?
    Ms. Packer. Thank you, Senator Warren. I appreciate all the 
work you are doing to push the Administration to take further 
acts. Yes, it would certainly help. The reality is that even 
with the safe harbor, many financial institutions are likely to 
continue to view the industry as risky, due to its Schedule I 
status. And even if cannabis was rescheduled, for example, to 
Schedule V, the small businesses and workers that we are 
talking about today, they would still be criminalized.
    So I want to just emphasize this. The only way to eliminate 
the criminality of small businesses and workers is to 
completely remove cannabis from the Controlled Substances 
Schedule. We want to deschedule, not reschedule.
    Senator Warren. I hear your point, and I recognize that 
descheduling not only helps ensure that small cannabis 
businesses have access to safe, formal financial services, but 
it also deals with a bigger problem, and that is while the SAFE 
Banking Act is a critical step on cannabis reform, we risk 
creating a system in which banks enjoy a safe harbor from 
prosecution for financing marijuana businesses, while thousands 
of people remain incarcerated for marijuana activities.
    In my view, the best solution is full Federal 
decriminalization. But we should also make sure that updates to 
our banking laws take equity into account. For example, when 
banks consider whether to serve a cannabis business, they 
consider the red flags that are laid out in the 2014 FinCEN 
guidance. One of those red flags is whether the business' owner 
has a drug-related conviction, which could include a conviction 
for something like marijuana purchase.
    So even as we try to move away from penalizing nonviolent 
marijuana activity, a penalty for marijuana activity is baked 
into lending decisions. And we know that Black Americans are 
almost four times more likely than White Americans to be 
arrested for marijuana possession.
    So Ms. Packer, would making it clear that financial 
institutions should not consider a marijuana criminal record an 
automatic red flag make our banking system more equitable?
    Ms. Packer. Yes, it absolutely would. The reality is that 
we are in a situation today, it is no longer 2014, right? Since 
2014, we have had 25 States--we are at a point now where have 
25 States that have passed laws to expunge records, provide 
folks second chances. We are also in a situation where we have 
15 States that include people with past cannabis criminal 
records, affirmatively allow these people to participate. We do 
not want to sit here and tell States either that their State 
policies do not matter and that they cannot pick and choose who 
should be a part of their market.
    Senator Warren. That is actually a very good point. You 
know, the SAFE Banking Act requires FinCEN to update its 
guidance when this bill becomes law, and this change should be 
at the top of their list.
    We need a comprehensive, all-of-the-above approach to 
cannabis reform that includes SAFE banking as well as 
decriminalization, pardoning and expungement of criminal 
records and other steps to begin to address decades of harmful 
and racially discriminatory cannabis laws.
    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Chair Brown. Thank you, Senator Warren.
    Senator Fetterman, of Pennsylvania, is recognized.
    Senator Fetterman. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. Sabet, as far as I understand Canada has now made 
marijuana legal. Is it safe to say that it has not slid into 
anarchy?
    Mr. Sabet. It would be safe to say that. In fact, I spend a 
lot of my time in British Columbia, and so I could say that. It 
is a beautiful place. But no one predicted it would slide into 
anarchy. It has just seen some increases in use. It has seen 
some DUI issues. It has seen the doctors of Ontario and Quebec 
call for more awareness on high-potency THC, given emergency 
room admissions.
    Senator Fetterman. So in other words, it is OK.
    Mr. Sabet. Well, that part is not OK. That part is not OK. 
It has not slid into anarchy. You are right.
    Senator Fetterman. And then let me just say with respect, 
you know, so really, I know obviously you oppose legalizing 
marijuana, and I presume it is because you believe that it is 
dangerous, and it could result in a lot of deaths. Right?
    Mr. Sabet. That is one reason.
    Senator Fetterman. Yes. So how many annual deaths for 
alcohol use?
    Mr. Sabet. There are about 120,000 annual deaths from 
alcohol.
    Senator Fetterman. One-hundred-twenty thousand. We agree 
with that. That is actually about right. How many deaths do 
cigarettes have in America every year?
    Mr. Sabet. Still about 400-some-thousand. Our legal drugs 
kill many more people than our illegal ones, partly because 
they are fueled by a for-profit, addictive industry, that I 
know, Mr. Chairman, I appreciate your work on this, fighting 
Big Tobacco for so long. Yes, our legal drugs kill a lot of 
people because they are advertised and promoted in a system 
that----
    Senator Fetterman. So in other words, alcohol and tobacco 
should be made illegal then.
    Mr. Sabet. Well, we are stuck with them because of their 
cultural, you know, where they have been in our----
    Senator Fetterman. It is addictive and there are a lot of 
profits on that. And then also, another question is how many 
people have died of aspirin?
    Mr. Sabet. A few thousand a year, maybe.
    Senator Fetterman. Yes. OK, so you were just talking about 
THC earlier. So many people have overdosed from THC death?
    Mr. Sabet. Well, overdose--there is a difference between 
overdose and overdose death. Overdose, probably hundreds of 
thousands of overdoses, not necessarily resulting in death. 
Tobacco does not provide an overdose----
    Senator Fetterman. So the answer is zero.
    Mr. Sabet. Tobacco is also zero. Yes, Senator. Tobacco is 
also zero overdose.
    Senator Fetterman. Zero, and that is my point.
    Mr. Sabet. But thousands of deaths from----
    Senator Fetterman. Sir, sir. See, you talked about THC, 
saying that this is not my grandpa's weed or whatever. But from 
my standpoint, this is like, do you know what grain alcohol is?
    Mr. Sabet. Mm-hmm.
    Senator Fetterman. Yes. Because it is sold in Pennsylvania 
as alcohol at a State store. And I do know anyone that walks in 
and is, ``Oh, my God, I ended up with grain alcohol instead of 
this bottle of red wine.'' You know, people can understand that 
as well, too, and that seems like it. And I do not use 
marijuana. You know, it could be made legal tomorrow in 
Pennsylvania, and I am not going to. And I am not going to use 
tobacco. And I am just saying, I support the SAFE Act, but if 
we just made it legal, we do not have this special safe beer, 
you know, Act or anything. We just need to make it legal in 
that.
    So what I am saying to you, and I am going to save you the 
last minute here, is that I just believe it is freedom. I 
believe it is a freedom issue for people, and I believe that it 
is making the legality--and I have been given hundreds and 
hundreds of people pardons because of having their lives ruined 
by having a B.S. charge. And that is what it is about to me. So 
you, sir.
    Mr. Sabet. Thank you, Senator Fetterman. I appreciate the 
time. I agree with you on pardons and expungement. I agree with 
you on removing criminal penalties. I wish we could make a 
distinction between decriminalization and the commercialization 
and legalization.
    Senator Fetterman. Honestly, I really am glad to finally 
get together.
    Mr. Sabet. No, absolutely. And I also agree with your logic 
that, you know, we do not have a ``SAFE Beer Act'', so let's 
have an honest debate. We might disagree at the end of the day, 
but let's have an honest debate on the legalization of drugs. 
Because we are seeing States legalize psychedelics now. There 
is talk about heroin and cocaine. Are we going to have a ``SAFE 
Psychedelics Act'', a ``SAFE Cocaine or Heroin Act'', a ``SAFE 
Fentanyl Act''? I mean, let's have an honest debate on the 
merits as opposed to some giveaway for banks. We might 
disagree, Senator Fetterman, but we can have that honest debate 
and conversation. So I appreciate that.
    I will also say that I think we need to talk--we have 
talked about the human toll of the industry. We need to talk 
about the human toll of the use of this superstrength THC. The 
suicides that we are seeing, the schizophrenia and psychosis we 
are documenting daily, where scientists are on this. The 
driving crashes. We work with a woman named Corinne LaMarca in 
your State of Ohio, Mr. Chairman, whose daughter was killed by 
someone driving high on marijuana, a 19-year-old daughter. You 
know, that is a human story too.
    And so we should not lock people up. We should not give 
criminal records. We should not have an incarceration-focused 
war on drugs. But at the same time I think we are going to this 
other extreme of acceptance over normalization, and I think 
people are getting hurt as a result.
    Chair Brown. Thank you, Senator Fetterman.
    Senator Smith, of Minnesota.
    Senator Smith. Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Senator 
Fetterman, for those questions. I think you are touching on 
something that is very important, which is kind of the question 
of freedom.
    I would like to draw out another piece here which is how 
the Federal prohibition on cannabis is a policy that has 
contributed to mass incarceration and over-policing, that it 
has not affected all communities the same. It has 
disproportionately affected Black and Brown communities. So we 
have a lot of work ahead of us to right those wrongs, and I 
believe that this includes decriminalizing marijuana and then 
expunging convictions. But we also have an important role to 
play in our corner of this work, in this Committee, with the 
SAFE Banking Act.
    So Ms. Packer, let me ask you, the SAFE Banking Act has, in 
the latest version, explicitly protects community development 
financial institutions and minority depository institutions. 
Can you just talk to us about how this could help expand 
opportunities for communities that have been disproportionately 
harmed by the war on cannabis?
    Ms. Packer. Thank you, Senator Smith. CDFIs and MDIs 
disproportionately lend to Black and Brown communities. CDFIs, 
in particular, are folks who regularly lend to small business, 
to do agriculture, to do commercial real estate, and these are 
the exact sectors that the cannabis industry and hemp industry 
need. So they are serving the undeserved.
    Senator Smith. Yes. Thank you for that. I completely agree. 
And I am just grateful for the Chair for the timeliness of this 
hearing and convening this hearing.
    Minnesota is on the cusp of legalizing recreational 
cannabis, and this is an exciting development, opportunity for 
small businesses and others. And the reality is that cannabis 
shops in Minnesota will effectively operate in the shadows so 
long as State and Federal laws are out of sync, right?
    So for Mr. Oyefeso, could you talk about the challenges 
that this presents for workers at cannabis businesses and their 
employers in States like Minnesota that are moving to legalize. 
What impact does that have on them?
    Mr. Oyefeso. One of the impacts is, as Mr. Sabet brought 
up, people prescribing to pregnant women. UFCW has created a 
training program with employers, but we cannot expand it 
without SAFE. So when you pass SAFE you can expand a training 
program that allows workers and employers to properly train 
workers and brings them out of poorly prescribing different 
potency levels to the wrong person. That is a big part of it, 
being able to educate workers, but you have to have the funds 
and the ability to build this in.
    Senator Smith. Right. Thank you. And Ms. Packer, how does 
this sort of, you know, one foot in each world regulatory 
environment that you have with States legalizing and then these 
Federal laws, how does that affect, you know, people who are 
cannabis consumers?
    Ms. Packer. I think part of it is that it just causes 
confusion. I think that there is a lot of confusion amongst 
consumers, and folks are not necessarily always able to tell 
licensed and regulated businesses from unlicensed businesses. 
And the same concerns that folks have about, you know, workers 
and the space consumers are entering, these places as well 
where cash is on hand. So I think the concern extends to them 
as well.
    Senator Smith. Mm-hmm. You know, both the Chair and I serve 
on the Agriculture Committee as well as the Banking and Housing 
Committee, and in 2018, the farm bill legalized hemp 
cultivation for commercial use. You know, licensed growers went 
up, but then they have been coming down. It was seen as a big 
opportunity in Minnesota and other States around the country, 
and there are a lot of reasons for that.
    But one constant concern I have heard from Minnesota 
growers has been a lack of access to basic banking. It is tough 
to get loans or to access payment processing. So Ms. Packer, 
have you heard similar concerns about this from farmers, and 
how can this Committee support hemp growers to help them grow 
their business and diversify their business?
    Ms. Packer. Thank you. In the city of Los Angeles we were 
working primarily with folks who were doing indoor cultivation, 
but the reality is that this is an issue across the supply 
chain. Whether it is cultivators, manufacturers, distributors, 
folks who are engaged in retail sales, they are all similarly 
plagued by a lack of fair access to banking.
    Senator Smith. Thank you. Thanks very much. Thank you, Mr. 
Chair.
    Chair Brown. Thank you, Senator Smith.
    Thanks to the four witnesses that joined us.
    Senators who wish to submit questions for the record, those 
questions are due 1 week from today, Thursday, May 18th. For 
the witnesses, please, you have 45 days to respond to any 
questions.
    Thank you again. The hearing is adjourned.
    [Whereupon, at 11:37 a.m., the hearing was adjourned.]
    [Prepared statements, responses to written questions, and 
additional material supplied for the record follow:]
               PREPARED STATEMENT OF CHAIR SHERROD BROWN
    Thank you to Senators Merkley and Daines for being here to testify 
and welcome to our other witnesses. And thank you to Ranking Member 
Scott for working with me on this hearing.
    Today the cannabis landscape looks far different than it did even a 
few short years ago.
    Cannabis has been legalized or decriminalized in almost every 
State. States and localities have established licensing and social 
equity programs to ensure that small businesses and communities 
impacted by the war on drugs are part of the growing legal cannabis 
industry.
    Today, we will hear about the challenges that small businesses and 
workers continue to face, and how we can empower and protect workers, 
provide stronger consumer and small business protections, and ensure 
fair and equitable access to financial services--all while making sure 
that our communities stay safe.
    Banking is critical for small cannabis businesses, who already face 
hurdles getting their business off the ground. Like any business, they 
need to apply for licenses, raise capital.
    But that's hard to do when you don't have a bank account, or if you 
do, one that might come with lots of fees.
    Without full access to the banking and payments system, legal 
cannabis businesses are forced to operate in the shadows.
    They can't access SBA loans, and know that even if they try to 
apply for a bank loan, they might go through all the costs and effort, 
only to be denied. So many small businesses rely on friends and family 
for funding.
    They deal with lots of cash, spend precious time trying to find a 
work-around, or hire expensive third-party service providers that take 
a hefty cut of their slim profits.
    This puts a robbery target on the backs of workers, and can make it 
harder to combat money laundering.
    There are also thousands of workers who can't prove their income to 
get a mortgage or a car loan, or keep a personal bank account, even 
though their paychecks come from a business that is perfectly legal in 
their State.
    Many of these workers are represented by unions like the UFCW and 
the International Brotherhood of Teamsters, which are fighting to make 
sure that their workers have more power in the workplace, in an 
industry where their physical safety is often at risk.
    The effects of this patchwork system go beyond just the cannabis 
industry.
    Sheet metal and air conditioning contractors build service retail 
locations and other facilities.
    Lawn care and gardening companies, like Scotts Miracle-Gro in Ohio, 
sell materials and equipment. They want to continue their businesses 
and serve their customers, and they don't want to worry that it will 
put their bank accounts at risk.
    While small businesses and workers deal with these challenges, the 
large cannabis companies are the ones dominating the market.
    They have ready access to private capital and are taking advantage 
of their workers with unfair labor practices to maximize profits. I 
stand by the workers who are actively fighting for higher wages and 
safer workplaces.
    We don't want the cannabis industry to become like Big Tobacco--
concentrating industry power in just a few giant players, hurting 
workers and pushing out thousands of small businesses, which are more 
likely to be owned by Black and Brown entrepreneurs, women, and 
veterans.
    We want small banks and credit unions, MDIs, and CDFIs to be able 
to serve small businesses and their workers, and level the playing 
field in an industry that is increasingly concentrated.
    Community banks and credit unions in my State want to serve the 
legal cannabis industries in their communities, and they want to rest 
assured that they can continue to bank their existing customers.
    Banks and credit unions shouldn't have to pick and choose which 
services they can offer to customers that happen to earn their income 
from a cannabis business.
    People in the cannabis industry should be able to have the same 
types of personal, commercial, and mortgage loans that any other 
customer can have, with the same protections and without additional 
costs or fees.
    And as we all know, the over-criminalization of marijuana has 
disproportionately hurt communities of color and indigenous 
communities.
    We have a long way to go to right those wrongs. We can start by 
ensuring that members of these communities not only benefit from, but 
also lead, the growth of the legal cannabis industry.
    MDIs and CDFIs can help reach these communities that are often 
overlooked--or worse, preyed upon--by other financial institutions. And 
people with prior marijuana convictions--especially in States where it 
is now legal--shouldn't be barred from participating in our economy, 
whether it's renting a home or finding a good-paying job.
    We all want safe communities and a safe banking system.
    As we all know after the three recent bank failures sparked by a 
panic-induced run, banks must manage the risks of their business.
    And they need to understand that failure to meet stakeholder 
expectations can have dire consequences for their customers.
    We must not weaken regulators' ability to protect consumers and the 
banking system from these risks.
    Financial institutions also play an important role in monitoring 
our financial system for fraud, money laundering, and other illegal 
activities.
    We need to ensure that workers and small businesses in the cannabis 
industry can access banking, while maintaining our robust anti-money 
laundering framework.
    I have heard from law enforcement officials who say that expanding 
banking access to cannabis businesses can help improve public safety, 
and direct resources towards truly criminal activity.
    Cannabis banking is of course just one part of the conversation on 
marijuana policy.
    People shouldn't be thrown in jail for a product that others are 
legally profiting from. In the past, we have been able to work together 
on a bipartisan basis to give those with prior convictions a second 
chance.
    Everyone--including our veterans--should have access to the 
medicine they need to care for themselves and their families.
    And if we truly care about public health, we should consider more 
medical and scientific research on this topic, so that we understand 
all of the impacts.
    There is more work to be done to make sure everyone can participate 
in the banking system and the legal cannabis economy in a fair, safe, 
and equitable way. I am glad we are building on the progress we have 
made over the years, and I look forward to continuing the conversation 
with our witnesses.
                                 ______
                                 
                PREPARED STATEMENT OF SENATOR TIM SCOTT
    Thank you to both of you for being here with us today--particularly 
to Senator Daines for your hard work and dedication on this topic for a 
number of years. As well as acknowledging both Senators Cramer and 
Lummis for their hard work on this, as well, on such an important 
topic.
    Each one of us on this Committee represents different States with 
different marijuana laws, and I understand that some of us may be in 
very different places when it comes to the legality of marijuana. In my 
home State of South Carolina, marijuana is largely still illegal, and 
I, myself, have concerns with it.
    And at the Federal level, marijuana is considered a Schedule I 
drug, which means that the possession, distribution, or sale of 
marijuana and other marijuana-derived products is illegal and that 
proceeds from marijuana-related businesses are subject to U.S. anti-
money laundering laws.
    The Department of Justice and national law enforcement groups have 
expressed concerns that [the] SAFE Banking Act could create loopholes 
in our money-laundering laws making it harder to catch criminals that 
traffic weapons, fentanyl, and even people--much harder, which is a 
consequence that we must eliminate if this bill is to become law.
    However, there are some States that have legalized marijuana, and 
now, we have legal State-based marijuana-related businesses throughout 
the country that depend on a relationship with their bank or credit 
union. And as a former small business owner, I understand and 
appreciate the importance of having that relationship with your 
financial institution. A banking relationship is crucial to providing 
safety and stability for a company--both employees and the customers it 
serves.
    That is why I am looking forward to hearing from our second panel 
of witnesses on how these businesses operate, the complications faced 
by these businesses, and how the safe harbor provided in the SAFE 
Banking Act would work in practice or if more is needed to ensure 
compliance.
    Finally, if we are going to have a conversation about SAFE Banking 
and banking a product that is illegal at the Federal level, then we 
must discuss the importance of banking all industries. In the past few 
years, we have seen certain financial institutions cave to political 
pressures and take actions to ``de-bank'' certain legal industries, 
such as firearms and oil and gas entities, due to the wild progressive 
nature of the radical Left and their agenda. These same institutions 
that are asking us to take a second look at the SAFE Banking Act are 
frankly standing in the way of banking legal entities today. I find 
that disappointing and quite perplexing. Congress has a responsibility 
to ensure that all legal industries have access to financial 
institutions and services. I understand that SAFE Banking, as drafted, 
currently contains a provision to ensure that legal industries are 
banked. De-banking legal industries is inappropriate, and I look 
forward to hearing more about that part of the legislation as we 
continue the discussion today. I hope today's hearing lends itself to a 
thoughtful debate on this issue.
                                 ______
                                 
               PREPARED STATEMENT OF SENATOR JEFF MERKLEY
    Chairman Brown, Ranking Member Scott, Members of the Committee, 
thank you for holding this critical hearing today on our SAFE Banking 
Act. And thank you for the invitation to come and testify on an effort 
I began over 8 years ago and have partnered with bipartisan colleagues, 
including Senators Gardner and now Daines, to advance. And, of course, 
I'd like to thank Chairman Brown for his partnership on this 
legislation and for months of collaboration to get us here today.
    At this moment, more than half of all States across our Nation have 
some form of legalized cannabis--37 States, plus DC have it for 
medicinal purposes while 21 have made it legal for recreational use.
    Today, legalized cannabis is an industry that supports more than 
428,000 jobs \1\ and accounted for over $25 billion in sales in 2021. 
In my home State of Oregon, we had nearly $1 billion in sales last 
year, with the taxes generated from those sales going to help fund our 
schools, mental health and substance abuse treatment programs, as well 
as law enforcement and city and county needs.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
     \1\ https://flowhub.com/cannabis-industry-statistics#
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    But our Federal law has not kept pace with Americans' changing 
attitudes towards cannabis, nor with the changing laws at the State and 
local level. That refusal to change denied these legitimate businesses 
the ability to access the same basic necessities as every other 
business--whether it's access to banking and credit card accounts, 
payroll services and more--because depository institutions and credit 
unions, worried they may be threatened with criminal prosecution under 
Federal law, have largely refused to work with this industry.
    This has forced nearly three-quarters of legitimate cannabis 
businesses to operate entirely in cash. The few financial institutions 
that do work with cannabis businesses charge hefty fees because of the 
legal risk and added layers of compliance. And this cash-only 
requirement trickles down far beyond just the cannabis retailers and 
growers. It effects the subcontractors who can only be paid in cash; 
the fertilizer providers and the seed sellers--practically any kind of 
small business associated in any way with this industry--all of whom 
can only carry out transactions in cash. It effects the employees of 
these legal cannabis businesses who can't be paid by check or direct 
deposit, meaning they have to walk around with wallets full of cash 
worried that they'll be a target for criminals on payday.
    Forcing legal business to operate in an entirely cash economy is 
terrible for accountability, but great for crime as it has left these 
businesses, and all those connected to them, open to violent crime, 
money laundering, theft, tax fraud and more.
    There's no national database to compile the statistics of incidents 
connected to these businesses. But over the last 12 months, we've seen 
at least 129 robberies of Oregon cannabis businesses. \2\ An unofficial 
tracker in the greater Seattle area showed that robberies of Washington 
cannabis retailers reached a 10-year high in 2022. A worker at a San 
Francisco dispensary was kidnapped in an armed robbery where $30,000 in 
cash was stolen back in February. \3\ If these businesses had the 
ability to accept debit cards and credit cards, and use the same 
systems to pay their taxes and payrolls as every other business uses in 
this day of technology it is indisputable the number of violent 
robberies would be far smaller.
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     \2\ https://www.oregon.gov/olcc/marijuana/Pages/marijuana-
thefts.aspx
     \3\ https://sfstandard.com/criminal-justice/armed-kidnappers-
target-cannabis-shop-run-by-anti-violence-leader/
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    The Secure and Fair Enforcement Banking Act--or SAFE Banking Act--
that Senator Daines and I have introduced and led together--would 
ensure that these legitimate businesses, operating in compliance with 
State cannabis laws in those States where citizens have said they want 
legal and medical cannabis, will have access to all of the same 
financial services as every other business. And those financial 
institutions will be protected against prosecution or asset forfeiture 
primarily for providing services to a State-sanctioned cannabis-related 
business.
    To be clear, banks will not be forced to provide services to these 
businesses, it simply creates a safe space for both the financial 
institutions and the legal cannabis industry.
    It explicitly extends the safe harbor to Community Development 
Financial Institutions (CDFI) and Minority Depository Institutions 
(MDI)--who serve underserved communities facing challenges in accessing 
capital and provide affordable access to financial services--so they 
can also serve cannabis businesses.
    And, after much consultation with colleagues and outside experts, 
it now includes provisions to address both concerns around equity and 
issues around law enforcement and money laundering raised in a memo 
released last year by the Department of Justice.
    As a result, we have a piece of legislation that enjoys strong 
bipartisan, bicameral support from people who believe the time has come 
to change our approach to these industries and how they are able to 
operate.
    It is beyond unacceptable that, with more than half the country 
embracing some form of legalized cannabis, we would continue to allow 
this dangerous and untenable situation of forcing legitimate business 
to operate entirely in cash here in the 21st Century. I'd like to 
submit into the record letters from current Oregon cannabis retailers 
sharing their own stories of the challenges and dangers facing them in 
this all-cash environment. Each of these stories represents thousands 
more just like them all across the country.
    So Mr. Chairman, Mr. Ranking Member, and all the Members of this 
Committee, I urge you to work quickly to consider and pass this bill 
and make our communities safer by ensuring equal access to the 
financial system for the cannabis industry. Thank you.
                                 ______
                                 
               PREPARED STATEMENT OF SENATOR STEVE DAINES
    Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to our witnesses for being 
here today. I am very pleased that the Banking Committee is holding a 
hearing on this important topic. Across my home State of Montana and in 
communities across the country, legal businesses are facing a public 
safety crisis. These businesses, often forced to operate in all cash, 
are appealing targets for robbers. In Washington State for instance, 
2022 saw at least 100 armed robberies at cannabis retail stores, the 
most in the past 10 years. Tragically, several of these incidents ended 
in bloodshed.
    The SAFE Banking Act would help address a major cause of this 
increase in violent crime by providing a safe harbor for depository 
institutions and service providers to transact with State-sanctioned 
marijuana businesses. In short, this bill would make it much easier for 
businesses to put their cash into banks.
    Some of the witnesses today will say that there are hundreds of 
banks and credit unions providing financial services to State-
sanctioned marijuana businesses, and that SAFE Banking is not needed. 
However, the truth is that only approximately 9 percent of the 
financial institutions in America have provided services to any 
marijuana-related businesses, meaning that those who are providing 
financial services face limited competition and charge substantially 
more to bank these clients than other industries, resulting in services 
being prohibitively expensive for many businesses.
    This legislation would also help Federal and State law enforcement 
distinguish between legal and illegal marijuana businesses. Opponents 
of this bill will say that SAFE Banking will help to grow the $25 
billion market for marijuana in the United States. However, the real 
size of the market is $100 billion, of which roughly 75 percent is 
illicit cannabis production.
    Allowing cash from legal, regulated businesses to enter the banking 
system will help law enforcement more easily distinguish legitimate 
actors and focus more of their resources on prosecuting the illicit 
market, and in so doing, may actually shrink the size of the overall 
industry and reduce consumption in the United States. If nothing else, 
SAFE Banking will greatly increase tax compliance and tax revenue for 
States.
    This legislation is also widely supported by banks, credit unions, 
the insurance industry, and many other service providers who at present 
do not have clear guidelines for how they can safely and legally 
transact with State-sanctioned marijuana businesses. Roofers, plumbers, 
electricians, and other similar service businesses are technically at 
risk of engaging in illegal money laundering simply for putting on a 
few shingles, fixing a leaky pipe, or safely wiring a building. In 
States where these are legally operating businesses, do opponents of 
this bill really believe hard-working tradesmen and women should be put 
in this impossible position?
    A bipartisan coalition of 38 State and territorial attorneys 
general came out in support of this bill in the past, and we have 
strengthened it considerably based on feedback from the Department of 
Justice.
    Nine sheriffs across Montana have publicly voiced support for this 
bill. To quote Lincoln County Sheriff Darren Short, `` . . . It 
concerns me that businesses have such a large amount of cash on hand, 
which is clearly a liability and a public safety issue. I also believe 
that any all-cash business is going to be rife with fraud, so it's an 
accounting problem as I see it too. As far as marijuana legalization 
goes, the voters of Montana made that decision and now it's our role to 
make it safe and make it work. I'm happy to support the SAFE Banking 
Act.''
    This bill does not legalize marijuana and I do not support Federal 
legalization of marijuana. However, the people in States across this 
country have spoken, and it is abundantly clear that the status quo is 
not only untenable, it is dangerous. The SAFE Banking Act is a 
commonsense bill that can and should pass, and would immediately 
improve the public safety threats we are seeing on the ground. I ask my 
colleagues to look at this issue with open eyes and I look forward to 
hearing their input today.
                                 ______
                                 
                 PREPARED STATEMENT OF ADEMOLA OYEFESO
International Vice President and Director of Legislative and Political 
  Action Department, United Food and Commercial Workers International 
                              Union (UFCW)
                              May 11, 2023
    Good morning, Chair Brown, Ranking Member Scott, and Members of the 
Committee. Thank you for the opportunity to testify today. I am Ademola 
Oyefeso with the United Food and Commercial Workers International Union 
(UFCW). UFCW represents over 1.3 million hard-working men and women who 
work in highly regulated industries including over 10,000 workers in 
the cannabis industry. Our cannabis members can be found in a dozen 
States everywhere from seed to sale. As the leading union in cannabis, 
UFCW is committed to shaping this industry into one that provides safe, 
well-paid, and family-sustaining jobs for all its workers.
Cannabis Banking Is a Worker Issue
    All jobs have challenges, but few industries face the unique 
challenge of a Federal prohibition on access to legal banking. Without 
access to banks, cannabis businesses have little choice but to resort 
to cash for all parts of their business. Customers pay in cash, workers 
are paid in cash, and large amounts of cash must be securely stored and 
transported. A cannabis worker in Oregon told us about a friend who 
also works in retail cannabis and had to use his own car to carry 
upwards of $40,000 cash with no protection or security. The cash-heavy 
nature of cannabis retail creates safety and financial problems for 
businesses, customers, workers, and the communities they serve.
    The majority of people employed in the cannabis industry are 
workers, not owners, and lack of banking has become a real issue for 
this growing workforce. In order for workers in the legal cannabis 
industry to have the same opportunities as all other workers, Congress 
must directly address the cannabis banking challenge.
Cash Dominated Industry Puts Workers at Financial Risk
    Because of cannabis' Schedule I status under Federal law, banks, 
payroll services, and credit card companies are effectively prohibited 
from providing traditional financial services to cannabis businesses. 
This includes holding deposits and credit card processing of sales. 
Consequently, nearly all cannabis retailers and delivery services must 
operate entirely on a cash-only basis. Without access to a federally 
insured bank, cannabis employers must find alternative arrangements to 
pay their workers, which generally means paying them with cash. There 
are a few banks that are willing to provide their services to cannabis 
employers, most do not, which leaves workers struggling to find access 
to personal banking services. As a result, most cannabis workers lack 
traditional proof of employment like a paystub.
    Without a bank account that will accept their paycheck, cannabis 
workers struggle in purchasing homes and must find alternatives to 
traditional banking to do so. This includes finding a cosigner or 
coborrower, paying in cash, or finding alternative credit unions. 
However, none of these alternatives are a guarantee, and workers often 
find themselves having to pay higher rates due to their work in a fully 
legal profession in their State.
    Imagine this scenario: a cannabis worker is filling out an online 
apartment rental application and they get to the section for proof of 
income with a list of applicable documents to be attached. They work 
for a perfectly legal business in their State but get paid in cash and 
simply cannot proceed any further on the form because they have no 
proof of employment.
    The lack of banking makes it difficult to get personal loans for 
homes and cars--even with high credit scores. In fact, the Federal 
Housing Authority's (FHA) loan program explicitly denies loans for 
workers in this industry for this reason.
    Ashley Batista, a member of UFCW Local 1776KS and a worker at 
Jushi, a cannabis grow and processing facility in Scranton, 
Pennsylvania, notes the challenges and benefits of banking for her and 
her coworkers.

        I've watched several coworkers who saved up every nickel and 
        dime for a downpayment on a home just to be denied a home loan 
        due to the legality of their profession. And because cannabis 
        is still illegal at the Federal level, many cannabis workers 
        are unable to provide traditional sources of proof of income, 
        such as tax returns. This can make it challenging for us to 
        qualify for home loans. Digital transactions through 
        traditional banks [would] ensure timely and secure payment 
        processing for both cannabis workers and the patients. This can 
        help reduce the risk of payment risks such as robberies and can 
        also eliminate the need for carrying large amounts of cash. 
        Many of us cannabis workers may face negative stereotyping and 
        discrimination, which can impact our credit scores. Having the 
        support of traditional banks would help move away from the 
        stigma on cannabis and give us the opportunity to qualify for 
        home loans. This can help improve financial stability and allow 
        us as workers to plan for the future.

    In addition, it is unclear if payroll benefits such as Social 
Security, disability, unemployment insurance, Medicare, and Medicaid 
are being properly deducted when you do not have access to a 
conventional payroll service.
    When cannabis employers gain access to conventional banking 
services, their workers get the economic security of a steady paycheck, 
as well as the peace of mind knowing their payroll taxes and benefits 
are being properly funded.
Cash Puts Workers in Physical Danger
    Cannabis businesses are forced to have large amounts of cash on 
hand, putting targets on the backs of workers and customers alike. We 
have seen several instances across the country where cannabis 
dispensaries experienced violent robberies. Ms. Batista said, ``Most 
dispensaries are still cash only so that not only puts the patients at 
risk who are walking in with cash to purchase but also the dispensary 
workers who are at the location with large amounts of cash behind the 
register. With these MSOs cutting costs this affects the amount of 
security that is implemented at these locations. Many employers have 
cut their security teams entirely and solely rely on the workers to 
watch surveillance cameras. This is a huge safety concern to the 
workers because dispensaries are burglarized and robbed at roughly the 
same rate as other cash intensive businesses.''
    Miranda Beck, a cannabis worker at Starbuds in Baltimore, Maryland, 
told us a story of a security guard and a worker who were robbed of 
cash and cannabis product at gunpoint. She said, ``It's well known that 
there is a lot of cash inside dispensaries because dispensaries can't 
accept credit cards. At Starbuds we were also paid in cash--each week 
we would have to go in (even on our days off, which was hard for some 
people without their own cars) to collect an envelope with our wages. 
They took taxes out, but we were paid in cash--so were the vendors. I 
worried about safety at work every day--not just for myself and my 
coworkers, but our patients. Some patients were robbed in the parking 
lot when they were coming in to buy their medicine.''
    One local leader in California notes, ``The lack of regulation and 
security measures in the cannabis industry also puts delivery drivers 
at risk, as they may not have access to proper training or protective 
equipment. Without banking, our cannabis delivery driver members carry 
large amounts of cash and valuable products, making them a prime target 
for robbery and assault.''
    Cannabis workers, like every other business venture, deserve the 
same right to work in safe conditions.
Cannabis Banking Is an Equity Issue
    Equity is an empty and hollow phrase unless it is made real and 
meaningful to the majority of working people living in those 
communities that were harmed by the war on drugs. Most of the 
discussion around equity in the cannabis industry centers upon the 
ownership of businesses with emphasis primarily placed on whether
members of communities of color will be positioned for generational 
wealth. This misses the point for workers. The greatest benefit of 
cannabis legalization will NOT come from creating a handful of 
successful, wealthy business owners of color, but from fostering a 
pipeline of good paying jobs throughout the cannabis industry that are 
widely available to persons from impacted communities. And equity 
cannot be achieved as long as we are barring workers from traditional 
banking. By denying these services to workers, we have created a 
barrier to entry during the infancy of this lucrative industry for 
those who did not and still do not have the means to overcome these 
personal financial obstacles.
States Are Leading the Way
    States have been leading the way in passing legislation and 
regulations that ensure a safe, legal, and thriving cannabis industry. 
In Washington State, the State government worked with local credit 
unions and small banks to encourage them to accept business from 
dispensaries. UFCW members in Washington have said that they like the 
State cannabis laws because they provide payroll stability.
    A regular paycheck goes hand-in-hand with good wages, quality 
affordable care, and a secure retirement, all things central to what 
UFCW negotiates for its members and that come with a good union 
contract.
    Even when States do the right thing it is not enough, for even if a 
worker DOES have a paystub, it is still illegal for financial 
institutions to consider income earned in a CRB when considering 
offering services like auto and home loans.
Shaping the Cannabis Industry To Be Good for Workers
    The emerging cannabis industry presents an unparalleled opportunity 
for Government to shape an industry from the ground up. There are many 
potential paths for cannabis but not all paths benefit the workers in 
the industry. A 2021 Economic Policy Institute report analyzed a high-
road and low-road scenario for the future of the cannabis industry. \1\ 
Under a low-road scenario, cannabis workers are subject to the same 
harmful practices inflicted on workers in similar agriculture settings: 
low wages, few workplace benefits, unprotected statuses as contract 
workers, and erratic scheduling. Under the high-road scenario, 
unionization ensures that cannabis jobs are good jobs. Cannabis workers 
in the high-road scenario could make an estimated $2,810 to $8,690 more 
per year than under the low-road scenario. Access to banking is part of 
a high-road scenario for cannabis workers.
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     \1\ https://www.epi.org/publication/ensuring-the-high-road-in-
cannabis-jobs/
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    Many proposals for Federal legalization have focused on taxes, 
licensing, plant size, THC levels, and sometimes equity in ownership--
and we applaud many of these efforts. Policymakers, however, have 
failed to include measures protecting cannabis workers--and SAFE 
Banking will help ensure that the rank-and-file employees share 
equitably in the growth of the industry, with good-paying, safe, 
family- and community-sustaining jobs. A paycheck is a necessary step 
towards making cannabis jobs, good jobs.
Congress Should Support Safe, Legal Banking for Cannabis Workers
    UFCW cannabis workers have said that access to traditional banks 
and payroll services can help significantly improve their lives by 
increasing financial stability, providing more and convenient secure 
payment processing which leads to safe working conditions and benefits.
    Cannabis workers do not deserve to be treated as criminals and 
should not have to struggle with financial and legal ambiguity while on 
the job. On behalf of all the workers in the cannabis industry, we urge 
Congress to give the same access to the financial systems and Federal 
benefits that all other American workers already enjoy.
    Thank you for the opportunity to testify and I would be happy to 
answer your questions.
                                 ______
                                 
                  PREPARED STATEMENT OF KEVIN A. SABET
     President and CEO, Smart Approaches to Marijuana, and Fellow,
                            Yale University
                              May 11, 2023
    Chairman Brown, Ranking Member Scott, Members of the Committee, 
thank you for inviting me to testify before you today. My name is Kevin 
Sabet, and I am the President and CEO of Smart Approaches to Marijuana, 
a nonpartisan, nonprofit organization dedicated to promoting a health-
first approach to drug policy. I served in three White House drug 
policy offices, for both Democrats and Republicans, most recently for 
President Obama from 2009 to 2011. In 2013, Representative Patrick 
Kennedy and I founded SAM, along with top scientists from around the 
country. SAM believes no one should be incarcerated just because they 
got caught with a joint, but we also believe that we should not create 
a new addiction-for-profit industry in the model of Big Tobacco. SAM 
partners with a wide variety of like-minded organizations, including 
major medical societies, treatment and recovery advocates, law 
enforcement organizations, the NAACP, AAA, Parent-Teacher Associations, 
and drug prevention groups to advocate for a better, safer, more 
equitable approach to drug policy.
Overview
    There are three main problems with passing the so-called SAFE 
Banking Act:

  1.  Today's marijuana is dangerous, and this bill would open the 
        marijuana industry to major institutional investors who will 
        create even more hazardous products.

  2.  This bill would open the U.S. financial system to activity from 
        transnational criminal organizations who intend to harm 
        Americans.

  3.  It purports to fix a fake problem. Today's marijuana businesses 
        are not dealing primarily with cash; there are hundreds of 
        banks working with pot businesses, as outlined, for example, in 
        a recent Bloomberg News piece entitled ``Cannabis Banking Is 
        Booming Despite Federal Uncertainty''. \1\
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     \1\ See https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2022-01-18/
marijuana-banking-is-moving-forward-despite-federal-uncertainty
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The Potential Increase of Wide-Spread Investments in the Marijuana 
        Industry
    I want to examine two scenarios that could result from the passage 
of the SAFE Banking Act.
    The first is the best-case scenario, and the intended effect of the 
bill: let's say only State-licensed marijuana producers and stores 
participate in the Federal banking system. This presents us with 
problem number one.
    For expert testimony on the purpose of the SAFE Banking Act, I 
refer you to former Speaker John Boehner's marijuana investing seminar, 
\2\ in which you find these statements, ``I was on the board of a major 
tobacco company, Reynolds. You think Big Tobacco is staying on the 
sidelines? I've talked to these guys, they are not going to sit this 
one out. And they have the dollars to acquire whoever they want . . . 
.'' His seminar partner said, ``With traditional investments, only 
17\1/2\ percent of the money comes from little fish like you and me. 
The other 82\1/2\ percent is from the big players, the major investment 
firms, hedge funds, pension funds, established corporations. Banking 
restrictions are preventing almost all of those investment firms and 
funds from diving headfirst into cannabis.'' Boehner continued, ``Well, 
they're dying to get in. I'm helping some of these bigger fish get 
ready to invest. There are hundreds of billions of dollars sitting on 
the sidelines''.
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     \2\ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZXGiRcXLJo
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    The SAFE Banking Act could have been drafted to narrowly address 
point-of-sale transactions. Instead, the bill is written specifically 
to allow those ``hundreds of billions of dollars sitting on sidelines'' 
to invest. Does anyone think that public health is going to be the 
driving force behind these multinational corporations who must report 
quarterly earnings? For a preview, we need only to look to Canada, 
where the CEO of a major marijuana corporation was ousted for a single 
quarter of poor sales, and Altria (formerly Philip Morris) has made a 
multibillion-dollar investment into the marijuana industry. We should 
also note that the former CEO of Purdue Pharma--who oversaw all of 
Oxycontin's deceptive marketing practices--saw his next big business 
opportunity in leading a marijuana company.
    Moreover, despite assurances to the contrary, the marijuana 
industry has little interest in advancing racial equity. Following more 
than a decade of commercialization, only 2 percent of business owners 
in the industry are Black. We have also seen how the industry targets 
vulnerable communities, including low-income communities and 
communities of color. The industry is disproportionately concentrating 
dispensaries in these communities, which results in the 
disproportionate concentration of marijuana's health-related harms and 
the continuation of preexisting disparities. Legalization and 
commercialization will continue to fail to live up to their lofty goals 
of achieving racial equity.
The Influx of Potent Products Into the Market
    It's also important that we not deal with this question in the 
abstract. When you see marijuana on TV, you see fields or warehouses of 
what many assume is a harmless plant. They make it look innocuous. What 
they don't show you are the concentrates and extraction systems, 
because industrial-scale extraction looks like something straight out 
of the television show Breaking Bad. Yet, concentrates are what they 
are heavily promoting on social media. Marijuana is not just a plant 
anymore. It has been highly processed into something that cannot be 
found in nature and has a devastating impact on the brain in terms of 
addiction and mental health. One kind of marijuana concentrate, called 
``shatter,'' from Acreage Holdings, is from former Speaker Boehner's 
new gig. It has marijuana strains with names like ``Thin Mint Girl 
Scout Cookies''.
    I also want to address kid-friendly edibles. You see, under the 
marijuana industry's logic, kids are only attracted to gummies in the 
shape of animals or cartoon characters, not to brightly colored, sugar-
coated gummies in the shape of vegetables, geometric shapes, or pot 
leaves. Washington State got so frustrated with the number of children 
ending up in emergency rooms from accidental ingestion of pot candies 
that they were going to ban them completely--but it only lasted a week, 
and the marijuana industry released their new plan to self-regulate 
with brightly colored geometric shapes and pot leaves only.
    For evidence of the adverse effects of these products, one can look 
at our 10-year experience in the United States with the legalization, 
commercialization, and normalization of marijuana. According to the 
National Survey on Drug Use and Health, there were 52.45 million past-
year marijuana users 12 or older in 2021, compared to 31.53 million in 
2012 and 25.76 million in 2002. The rate of past-month use, a measure 
indicative of more frequent use, has grown at an even more concerning 
rate: there were 14.58 million in 2002, 18.86 million in 2012, and 
36.36 million in 2021. The rate of daily or almost daily use has more 
than quadrupled, increasing from 3.13 million in 2002 to 5.35 million 
in 2012 and 13.25 million in 2021. For context, there were 12.58 
million daily users of alcohol in 2021. More people are using 
marijuana, and they are using it more heavily.
    Similarly, the rate of marijuana use disorder, also known as 
addiction, has been trending upward. In 2002, 4.29 million Americans 12 
or older had a marijuana use disorder, compared to 4.42 million in 2018 
and 4.84 million in 2019, the last year the DSM-IV definition was used. 
Following the transition to DSM-V, 14.21 million were estimated to have 
marijuana use disorder in 2020 and 16.27 million were estimated to have 
it in 2021. More Americans are getting addicted to marijuana.
    Alongside increases in the rates of use have been increases in the 
adverse effects related to use. There were 804,285 marijuana-related 
emergency department visits in 2021, according to the Drug Abuse 
Warning Network. Of concern, more than 72,000 involved children younger 
than the age of 18. Black individuals accounted for more than 195,000, 
or 24.27 percent, indicating that the adverse effects of use are 
disproportionately harming communities of color.
    In 2021, according to the National Poison Data Center, there were 
7,692 calls to poison control centers about marijuana-infused edibles, 
7,625 about dried marijuana, 1,138 about concentrated extracts of 
marijuana, and 1,014 about synthetic marijuana, among other forms. 
Regarding single exposures involving edibles, for example, 
approximately 43 percent of calls, or nearly 3,000, were for children 5 
or younger, and approximately 18 percent, or nearly 1,300, were for 
children between the ages of 6 and 12. Irresponsible adults are leaving 
their marijuana out around the house, and it is having tragic 
consequences for their children, who unknowingly eat it and find 
themselves needing to be rushed to the hospital.
    In fact, 1 in 3 users are estimated to have a marijuana use 
disorder. Daily users of marijuana above 10 percent THC are nearly five 
times more likely to develop psychosis than non-users of marijuana. 
Users of high-potency marijuana are four times more likely than users 
of low-potency products to become addicted to marijuana. The National 
Institute on Drug Abuse states, ``The risks of physical dependence and 
addiction increase with exposure to high concentrations of THC, and 
higher doses of THC are more likely to produce anxiety, agitation, 
paranoia, and psychosis.'' Just last week, a study came out about the 
link between marijuana use disorder and schizophrenia, finding that as 
many as 30 percent of cases of schizophrenia among males aged 21-30 
could have been prevented if we had averted marijuana use disorder.
    So, that is the best-case scenario, if everything goes according to 
plan: more money, more customers, more profit, more destruction.
The Potential Increase of Cartel Activity
    But there is a much darker possibility, and it doesn't require a 
stretch of the imagination because it is already happening. This is 
concern number two. International cartels have infiltrated legalized 
States and have used the cover of legalization to conduct massive grow 
operations, often in upscale neighborhoods. \3\ The SAFE Banking Act 
provides a scalable new avenue for these cartels to infiltrate the 
banking system in a much more systematic way.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
     \3\ https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/foreign-cartels-embrace-
home-grown-marijuana-pot-legal-states-n875666; https://www.pbs.org/
newshour/show/how-colorados-marijuana-legalization-strengthened-the-
drugs-black-market
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    For example, I refer you to a letter from 2023 from a bipartisan 
group of former Administrators of the Drug Enforcement Administration 
and Directors of the White House Office of National Drug Control Policy 
who describe a threat that parallels the multibilliondollar Black 
Market Peso Exchange.

    To quote from the letter:

        Because cash made from the sale of marijuana looks the same 
        regardless of what it was used to pay for, it will be extremely 
        difficult for banks to know whether large bundles of cash 
        presented for deposit were made from the sale of marijuana 
        rather than from the sale of heroin, fentanyl, or 
        methamphetamine.

        In short, the SAFE Banking Act could inadvertently allow 
        cartels to bring into banks duffel bags of cash made from the 
        sale of those illicit drugs that are killing tens of thousands 
        of Americans every year.

        Notably, they concluded, ``We urge the Senate Banking Committee 
        to reject the SAFE Banking Act and other legislation that would 
        give these cartels more cover and more access to the U.S. 
        financial system.''

    This letter helps explain why eliminating cash will never stop 
marijuana dispensaries from being targeted for robbery: in the majority 
of cases, the burglars are there to steal marijuana, not cash. The 
marijuana is more easily accessed and is extremely valuable in its own 
right. A marijuana store is more akin to a jewelry store than a 
convenience store. A recent illustration comes from thieves who backed 
a pickup truck into a Michigan pot shop, stole all of the marijuana, 
and then left. They came back 20 minutes later to steal the ATM as an 
afterthought. \4\ Moreover, in December 2022, thieves in Los Angeles 
stole ``hundreds of pounds of marijuana'' from a dispensary. And in 
March 2023, criminals in Santa Cruz stole ``half-a-million dollars 
worth'' of marijuana.
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     \4\ http://www.fox2detroit.com/news/local-news/thieves-crash-
truck-into-detroit-marijuana-dispensary-steal-pot-atm
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    This leads us to reason three--the fake excuse to support this 
bill. It is built around a lie that these businesses mainly deal only 
with cash. In fact, the U.S. Department of Treasury's Financial Crimes 
Enforcement Network reported that nearly 800 banks worked with 
marijuana businesses in the fourth quarter of 2022, up from 54 in the 
first quarter of 2014. Our own investigation revealed that many 
marijuana dispensaries accept credit and debit cards as payment, 
debunking the myth that they are forced to operate as cash-only 
businesses.
    More broadly, supporters of legalization assured the general public 
that this policy experiment would result in the displacement of the 
illicit market--consumers would purchase from dispensaries, not dealers 
on the corner, they argued. However, as we have seen in States across 
the country, the opposite has occurred. The expansion of the illicit 
market has coincided with the legalization of marijuana, to the 
detriment of public health and safety.
    According to a September 2022 report from Leafly, a pro-marijuana 
publication, 80 percent of marijuana sales in New Jersey continue to 
occur in the illicit market. In Michigan, they estimated that 60 
percent of sales occur in the illicit market. And in California and 
Illinois, it is 55 percent. As we have recently seen in New York, 
particularly in New York City, legalization has given illicit operators 
cover to open unregistered, unlicensed dispensaries--1,400 illicit 
shops have popped up in New York City alone. Evidently, legalization 
has failed to eliminate the black market and, in some regards, has 
exacerbated it. The SAFE Banking Act would add fuel to the fire by 
allowing illicit actors to launder and deposit their illicit proceeds.
    The U.S. Department of State's International Narcotics Control 
Strategy Report mentioned, ``U.S. consumer demand for illicit marijuana 
has increased following marijuana regulation in several U.S. States, 
due to higher costs for legal marijuana and reduced illicit domestic 
production.'' Additionally, the DEA's most recent National Drug Threat 
Assessment stated, ``some marijuana produced by State-licensed growers 
is diverted and sold illicitly rather than through State-licensed 
retailers,'' suggesting that legalization often fuels the black market 
rather than replaces it.
What This Bill Is Not About
    Cannabidiol (CBD) and hemp were federally descheduled through the 
2018 Farm Bill, and hemp growers have full access to banking services. 
FDA-approved CBD products have been demonstrated through clinical 
trials to have a medicinal benefit for certain childhood seizures.
    By contrast, marijuana producers are growing and manufacturing 
incredibly high-potency products that are orders of magnitude stronger 
than anything available in the Woodstock days. What we think of as 
marijuana from those days was only 1-3 percent THC and contained a 
relatively high proportion of CBD, which acted as a neuroprotective 
agent. Today's marijuana concentrates can have up to 95 percent THC and 
no CBD. Between 1995 and 2021, the average potency of marijuana 
increased from 3.95 percent to 15.34 percent THC, while the percentage 
of CBD has remained below 0.5 percent. The average potency of vapes and 
concentrates has increased at a similar rate.
    Nora Volkow, the director of NIDA, testified, ``The increasing 
availability and potency of cannabis along with the proliferation of 
new cannabis products and methods for consuming them raise serious 
public health concerns,'' adding ``the risks of physical dependence, 
addiction, and other negative consequences increase with frequent use 
and exposure to high concentrations of THC.'' And the Colorado 
Department of Public Health & Environment concluded, ``it is clear that 
use of products with high concentrations of THC are associated with 
higher rates of psychiatric disorders, such as schizophrenia, 
psychosis, and generalized anxiety disorder.''
    What do you think is driving the increase in the potency of 
marijuana? The profit-driven marijuana industry. By getting more 
individuals addicted to marijuana, they can convert nonusers and 
occasional users into lifelong customers. Drawing on the previously 
cited rates of use and marijuana use disorder across the country, we 
are seeing this strategy play out with tragic consequences. What's 
more, though the American Medical Association has called for the 
potency of marijuana to be limited--only a few States have adopted 
sensible potency caps--the industry continues to lobby fiercely against 
these regulations. The marijuana industry will continue to produce, 
promote, and sell ever-stronger products, with little to no regard for 
public health and safety.
    We often hear that supposedly ``47 States have legalized some form 
of cannabis'' and we have to do something to accommodate those States. 
First of all, many of those States only created programs for 
compassionate distribution of non-intoxicating CBD, which was also 
federally legalized when produced from hemp in the 2018 Farm Bill. It 
is disingenuous to lump in those States when they now have a pathway to 
full compliance with Federal law. I disagree that we should be fully 
legalizing and commercializing high-potency marijuana, but if the other 
witnesses want to do it, they should follow the path of the Farm Bill 
and have that debate.
    Other States have more cautious medical marijuana programs, not 
allowing it to be smoked, and could conduct research programs that 
could be converted into legitimate FDA clinical trials with early 
access programs for suffering people. There is a right way to research 
and prescribe medicines, and that path runs through the FDA approval 
process.
    On the other extreme are States like California, where anyone can 
qualify for a medical marijuana card under the thinnest of pretexts, 
and it essentially functions as recreational marijuana for anyone 
willing to go through the minor inconvenience of a pot doctor's 
recommendation via a 5-minute Skype session.
    And then there are the States that have legalized and 
commercialized recreational marijuana. These States are doing an 
abysmal job of regulating the drug, with rampant underground markets, 
out-of-State diversion, the highest rates of youth use in the Nation, 
skyrocketing use for 18- to 24-year-olds (when the brain is still 
developing), and as much as a doubling in fatalities due to marijuana-
impaired driving. \5\ We should not be expanding that failed experiment 
to other States.
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     \5\ https://learnaboutsam.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/2019-
Lessons-Final.pdf
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    Indeed, the voters in Arkansas, North Dakota, South Dakota, and 
Oklahoma recently rejected ballot measures to legalize and 
commercialize recreational marijuana. These outcomes suggest that 
support for legalization was initially overestimated and that the 
public is becoming increasingly aware of the unintended consequences 
associated with this incautious policy.
Whose Problem Are We Solving?
    Today's modern marijuana industry is structured around catering to 
heavy users. Daily and near daily users consume 87 percent of the 
marijuana in the State of Colorado. \6\ If you want to be successful in 
the marijuana business, that's who you have to sell to, and those users 
have built up a high tolerance and high dependence. Marijuana 
businesses must meet the demand they have created if they want to stay 
in business and not lose their customers to competitors. If they don't 
aggressively market the highest potency products available, someone 
else will and they will lose market share. Therefore, the business 
model becomes the highest potency for the cheapest price, and no State 
has successfully implemented a potency cap. Advancing a business model 
of creating new instances of substance use disorder during an addiction 
crisis is grossly irresponsible as a matter of public policy. Notably, 
according to the 2021 National Survey on Drug Use and Health, among 
past-month users, there were about five times as many daily users of 
marijuana as alcohol.
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     \6\ Colorado Department of Revenue: Market Size and Demand for 
Marijuana in Colorado (2017).
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The Addiction Crisis
    The fundamental question before us today is whether we should 
promote and normalize drug use during an overdose and addiction crisis 
or discourage it and help people seek treatment and achieve recovery. 
By skipping ahead to a technicality over banking rules, the profit-
driven marijuana industry is hoping to gain many of the benefits of 
Federal legalization while averting a debate over the public health 
effects associated with this policy. But make no mistake, a policy 
change around banking would have massive public health and safety 
ramifications, so we are shirking our duties if we do not consider the 
full question. The so-called SAFE Banking Act--which should be called 
the Addiction Banking Act--will allow the expansion of an industry 
pushing new, exponentially more powerful derivatives of marijuana 
before any of its health or other societal impacts are fully 
understood.
    Banks currently want to have it both ways: they say they are not 
taking a position on legalization, but they want to profit from a 
fabulous new line of business: depositing federally illegal proceeds. 
As I am sure you know, marijuana remains a Schedule I substance, 
meaning it has a high potential for abuse and no accepted medical 
benefit. I am amazed that no one has called them on it. It is an 
untenable position. If they want to benefit from the sale of 99 percent 
potency concentrates, marijuana-infused candies and gummies, and high-
potency vapes that are marketed to young demographics through social 
media influencers using the playbook pioneered by Big Tobacco, they 
should be consistent and argue to have those things legalized and 
advertised. But they are not doing that, because they know that their 
public reputation would take a hit. So instead, they argue that they 
should participate in what is literally the definition of money 
laundering for federally illegal proceeds but be held harmless for the 
damage to public health and public safety.
    We at SAM deal every day with families who have lost loved ones to 
addiction, and marijuana is a major part, if not the defining feature, 
of all of their stories. Contrary to the claims of the marijuana 
industry and legalization advocates, legalization is not resulting in a 
reduction in opioid deaths. These claims have been thoroughly debunked 
in recent studies in the Proceedings of the National Academies of 
Sciences and elsewhere. \7\ Instead, in a study of 34,000 individuals, 
marijuana users were discovered to be more than two times as likely to 
misuse prescription opioids or initiate nonprescription use of opioids. 
\8\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
     \7\ Shover, et al., ``Association Between Medical Cannabis Laws 
and Opioid Overdose Mortality Has Reversed Over Time''. PNAS, June 10, 
2019. https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.1903434116
     \8\ https://www.drugabuse.gov/news-events/news-releases/2017/09/
marijuana-use-associated-increased-risk-prescription-opioid-misuse-use-
disorders
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    There is still an opportunity for the other witnesses at this table 
to wash their hands of the marijuana industry and say, ``we want no 
part of this coming nightmare.'' But, if they proceed, at least it will 
be with the full knowledge of what they are investing in: preying on 
the vulnerable through the marketing of high potency and kid-friendly 
products, and producing new cases of substance use disorder and serious 
mental illness.
    We can see where this is leading in our neighbor to the north, 
where Altria, formerly Philip Morris, the manufacturer of Marlboro 
cigarettes, has made a multibillion-dollar investment into the 
marijuana industry, paired with an even bigger investment in vaping 
giant Juul. These investments will have business synergy, as the latest 
data shows a 63 percent increase in youth vaping of marijuana in Juul-
like devices. \9\ It took us over 100 years to reverse the public 
health impacts of the tobacco industry, who continually cast doubt on 
public health advocates with industry-funded bunk science. We have a 
chance today not to repeat those mistakes.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
     \9\ Johnston, L.D., Miech, R.A., Bachman, J.G., Schulenberg, J.E., 
and Patrick, M.E. (2018). ``Monitoring the Future National Survey 
Results on Drug Use 1975-2018. Overview, Key Findings on Adolescent 
Drug Use''. Ann Arbor: Institute for Social Research, University of 
Michigan.
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    I appreciate the opportunity to appear before this Committee and 
thank the Committee in advance for thinking about our Nation's youth as 
you craft drug laws. I look forward to answering any questions you may 
have.
                                 ______
                                 
                PREPARED STATEMENT OF MICHELLE SULLIVAN
           Chief Risk and Compliance Officer, Dama Financial
                              May 11, 2023
    Chairman Brown, Ranking Member Scott, and the esteemed Members of 
the Committee, my name is Michelle Sullivan, and I am the Chief Risk 
and Compliance Officer for Dama Financial. I am honored to testify 
before this Committee to share my experiences and lessons learned in 
cannabis banking as well as my opinion on the SAFE Banking Act, S. 
1323. I have spent my career in banking, risk management and 
compliance, most recently with a regional bank in Kansas City, 
Missouri, before joining Dama in 2017.
    Dama is the largest and the first end-to-end provider of banking 
and payment solutions for legal cannabis businesses in the United 
States. Today, we partner with banks which allows our clients a single 
relationship with multiple financial solutions. This includes 
everything from access to banking and merchant services to cash 
management, payments, POS, and inventory management solutions.
    Dama was founded in 2016 to provide banking access to licensed 
cannabis-related businesses with a compliance first approach following 
the provisions outlined in the ``Cole Memo'' of February 14, 2014, as 
well the FinCEN Guidance, BSA/AML requirements and all applicable 
Federal and State laws.
    Dama partners with banks that would like to provide access to 
banking but do not always have the resources or expertise to run a 
high-risk, cash extensive cannabis banking program on their own.
    Dama has developed the gold standard of compliance frameworks to 
ensure we know our customers through enhanced onboarding, due 
diligence, and continued oversight. We do so in a safe and sound manner 
to minimize the risk of money laundering by preventing illegal 
operators and illicit cash from creating vulnerabilities in our 
financial ecosystem.
    To understand the true source of funds, Dama goes beyond the high-
risk banking requirements of Federal law by doing the following: 
Drilling down to 10 percent of ownership under the UBO rule and 
performing onsite inspections and risk assessments that encompass 
inherent and residual risk throughout the life cycle of the 
relationship. We reject a fair number of businesses from qualifying for 
our services because they are not transparent with us and/or they don't 
meet our diligent standards.
    Because of these experiences, we believe the SAFE Banking Act 
should be stronger and encompass a more stringent statutory framework. 
We can't simply rely on existing guidance without more robust 
legislation from Congress. It is quite possible that banking standards 
will be more lax after the passage of the SAFE Banking Act than there 
is today.
    If Congress gives financial institutions a ``Safe Harbor'' to 
provide services to Cannabis Related-Businesses (CRB), it must provide 
a tougher framework than existing guidance. At a minimum, a financial 
institution should follow enhanced rules regarding board approved risk 
limits and deposit ratios and reporting criteria when limits are 
approached or breached with required technology and staffing expertise. 
We must also include enhanced due diligence and ongoing monitoring 
requirements, especially as it pertains to cash deposits and legacy 
cash.
    We also believe there is serious potential for confusion in the 
banking industry following the passage of this legislation. Will the 
cash truly get out of the system? Credit card companies have policies 
against banking illegal products which may prohibit cannabis 
transactions running on those rails even after the SAFE Banking Act 
passes. Without solving the larger decriminalization issues, we worry 
that the passage of the SAFE Banking Act alone could make problems 
worse by giving us a sense of resolution while huge conflict in Federal 
law still exists. This will still make it difficult for some financial 
institutions to proceed.
    Lastly, as Congress wrestles with this issue, we think it should do 
so with a clear understanding of the opportunities for cannabis banking 
today. This problem is not the urgent one that it once was. According 
to FinCEN, there are over 700 financial intuitions that work with legal 
cannabis businesses. Every company that meets the risk standards we've 
laid out should already be able to access a banking solution in 
America. In my opinion, we should pause and provide more teeth to the 
existing bill to protect the financial and banking industry as a whole.
    We are happy that Congress is having this hearing today. We believe 
that Congress should study these issues very carefully before moving 
forward. We look forward to answering your questions and working with 
Senators from both parties to resolve the cannabis banking issues 
facing our country.
                                 ______
                                 
                    PREPARED STATEMENT OF CAT PACKER
           Vice Chair, Cannabis Regulators of Color Coalition
                              May 11, 2023
    Dear Members of the Senate Committee on Banking, Housing, and Urban 
Affairs: I urge you to support several recommendations offered to 
improve the SAFE Banking Act, especially to ensure that cannabis 
banking is fair--which is what the F in SAFE stands for.
    The Secure and Fair Enforcement Act of 2023, or ``SAFE Banking 
Act'', includes new provisions to ensure timely and more comprehensive 
data collection and reports that are inclusive of the hemp industry, 
veteran-owned businesses and small businesses. These are changes the 
Drug Policy Alliance (DPA) and the Cannabis Regulators of Color 
Coalition (CRCC) fought to include. Additional positive changes to the 
bill include granting marijuana workers access to Federal mortgage 
loans and explicitly extending the bill's protections to Community 
Development Financial Institutions (CDFIs), another provision DPA, 
CRCC, and our allies advocated for. \1\
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     \1\ https://drugpolicy.org/press-release/2023/04/statement-
reintroduction-safe-banking-act-congress
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    These new, commonsense provisions focused on promoting fairness are 
encouraging signs that the bill is headed in the right direction. 
However more can, and should, be done to ensure that all communities 
have the opportunity to benefit from this limited but critical reform. 
Fortunately, with a few additional minor and technical amendments the 
SAFE Banking Act could be a significantly improved means to promote 
fair access to banking for those participating in the hemp and cannabis 
market.
    This letter details technical amendments to SAFE's existing 
provisions regarding updated guidance from Federal banking regulators 
and studies and reports on diversity and inclusion that seek to promote 
fair access to cannabis banking.
Recommendations To Promote Fairness in Updated Guidance
Past Cannabis Criminal Records as Red Flags
    The SAFE Banking Act would require Federal banking regulators to 
provide updated guidance to financial institutions regarding the 
provision of financial services to the cannabis and hemp industry. 
However, without additional provisions to ensure fairness, updated 
guidance may fail to adequately address access.
    My top priority is to ensure that past cannabis criminal records 
are not considered ``red flags'' or an automatic indication that a 
business may be engaged in unlawful activity.
    Existing guidance considers criminal records to be a ``red flag'' 
or information that serves as an automatic indication that a business 
may be engaged in illegal activity. \2\ Although the guidance doesn't 
make specific reference to cannabis criminal records, I am concerned 
that past cannabis criminal records, especially those that have been 
expunged or are for activity that has been pardoned or is no longer 
prohibited under State law, will be considered automatically be 
considered information that serves as an automatic indication that a 
business may be engaged in illegal activity.
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     \2\ https://www.fincen.gov/resources/statutes-regulations/
guidance/bsa-expectations-regarding-marijuana-related-businesses
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    Without proper context or consideration of State laws, failure to 
address this issue is likely to result in discriminatory practices 
against State-sanctioned cannabis businesses. I understand the 
importance of protecting financial institutions from involvement in 
illegal activities, but I also recognize that many individuals have 
been unfairly impacted by cannabis criminalization, particularly those 
in marginalized communities. Fortunately, existing guidance clarifies 
that future guidance can update what's considered a red flag and the 
SAFE Banking Act's existing requirement for updated guidance provides a 
timely and meaningful opportunity to address this issue.
    Many States have changed their laws and established programs to 
remove barriers associated with past cannabis criminal records 
including through expungement or licensing opportunities for cannabis 
businesses. At least 25 States have pardoned or expunged past cannabis 
criminal records, either for some or all types of offenses. \3\ And at 
least 15 States have laws that allow individuals with past cannabis 
criminal records to participate in State-legal markets. \4\ Moreover, 
in order to ensure that future guidance does not interfere with related 
State and local interests, I recommend that the SAFE Banking Act ensure 
that updated guidance from Federal banking regulators clarifies that 
cannabis criminal records that have been expunged or those that are 
associated with activity that has been pardoned or is no longer 
prohibited under State law will not automatically be considered as red 
flags.
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     \3\ Arizona, California, Colorado, Connecticut, District of 
Columbia, Delaware, Hawai`i, Illinois, Maryland, Massachusetts, 
Michigan, Missouri, Montana, North Dakota, New Hampshire, Nevada, New 
Jersey, New Mexico, New York, Oregon, Rhode Island, Utah, Vermont, 
Virginia, and Washington. https://ccresourcecenter.org/state-
restoration-profiles/50-state-comparison-marijuana-legalization-
expungement/
     \4\ Arizona, California, Colorado, Illinois, Massachusetts, 
Michigan, Nevada, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, Rhode Island, 
Oregon, Vermont, Virginia, and Washington.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    By doing so, we can ensure that financial institutions have clear 
guidelines to follow when serving the cannabis industry, and that 
individuals who have been impacted by past cannabis criminalization are 
not unfairly penalized. Without this type of change, cannabis criminal 
records will continue to be a significant barrier towards participation 
in State-legal marijuana industries, disproportionately impacting Black 
and Brown entrepreneurs and undermining State efforts to address 
barriers associated with cannabis criminal records.
Best Practices To Promote Fairness
    Although the SAFE Banking Act has provisions to study barriers to 
access to financial services for those in the hemp and cannabis 
industry, it lacks measures to proactively promote fairness in access 
to banking.
    The SAFE Banking Act inexplicably requires that Federal banking 
regulators' guidance for financial institutions servicing the hemp 
industry include best practices for financial institutions but includes 
no corresponding requirement for best practices within the requirements 
for updated guidance for the cannabis industry. Moreover, it's 
important that fairness be a primary goal of best practices.
    As such, I recommend that the SAFE Banking Act be amended to ensure 
that updated guidance from Federal banking regulators includes best 
practices for financial institutions to follow, including best 
practices to promote fairness, when providing financial services, 
including processing payments, to State-sanctioned marijuana businesses 
and hemp-related legitimate businesses.
Information Sharing With Regulators
    For many State and local regulators the cannabis and hemp 
industry's ability to access financial services provides an opportunity 
for greater insight into their market and a means for increased 
regulatory oversight. However, although financial institutions and 
regulators already regularly share information back and forth, both 
could benefit from an established process that is consistent, 
transparent, and fair.
    In order to facilitate information sharing between financial 
institutions and regulators, I recommend that the SAFE Banking Act be 
amended to establish a process for financial institutions to follow, 
including best practices to promote fairness, when providing financial 
services, including processing payments, to State-sanctioned marijuana 
businesses and hemp-related legitimate businesses.
Recommendations To Promote Fairness in Studies and Reports on Diversity 
        and Inclusion
    Although the SAFE Banking Act would allow Federal officials to 
study and report on diversity and inclusion, these studies and reports 
can be significantly improved with a few technical amendments.
Study State and Local Strategies To Address Barriers
    SAFE would require the GAO to study barriers to marketplace entry 
and success and barriers to access financial services for potential and 
existing minority-owned, veteran-owned, women-owned, and small State-
sanctioned marijuana businesses and hemp-related legitimate businesses.
    It would also require the GAO to report its findings and 
recommendations to remove barriers and expand access. However, the SAFE 
Banking Act does not explicitly require the GAO to study or report on 
existing strategies, including those taken by State and local 
governments, to remove barriers and expand access. In order to ensure 
that the GAO report is informed by existing strategies and related 
lessons learned, I recommend that the SAFE Banking Act be amended to 
ensure that the GAO report on diversity and inclusion specify that the 
GAO is required to study and report on strategies, including those 
taken by State and local governments, to address barriers to market 
place entry and success, including in the licensing process, and the 
access to financial services for potential and existing minority-owned, 
veteran-owned, women-owned, and small State-sanctioned marijuana 
businesses and hemp-related legitimate businesses.
Barriers to Marketplace Competition
    As mentioned above, SAFE would require the GAO to study and issue a 
report related to barriers to marketplace entry and success. However, 
as is the case with all businesses, and especially is the case with 
cannabis businesses, success is not guaranteed but largely dependent on 
a businesses' ability to compete. As such I recommend that the SAFE 
Banking Act be amended to clarify that the GAO's study on diversity and 
inclusion address barriers to marketplace entry and competition, or at 
least clarify that barriers to competition should be included in its 
consideration of marketplace barriers to success.
Reports and Studies on Diversity and Inclusion Should Promote Fair 
        Access not Expanded Access
    In addition to the GAO's report on diversity and inclusion, SAFE 
also requires a diversity and inclusion report from Federal banking 
regulators. SAFE requires both the GAO and Federal banking regulators 
to specifically make recommendations for ``expanding access'' to 
financial services.
    A quick example highlights why the SAFE Banking Act should be 
amended to require Federal officials to develop recommendations for 
promoting fair access to financial services instead.
    If Black Americans are 14.2 percent of the population, \5\ but 
found to represent only 2 percent of those with access to financial 
services, under a standard of ``expanding access'', Federal officials 
could simply make recommendations to raise this percentage from 2 
percent to 3 percent. Without fair access as the standard, minority-
owned, veteran-owned, women-owned, and small State-sanctioned marijuana 
businesses and hemp-related legitimate businesses--and others will 
continue to be underserved by cannabis banking.
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     \5\ https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/fact-sheet/facts-
about-the-us-black-population/
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Other Technical Amendments and Recommendations
SAFE's Purpose
    Although the 2021 version of SAFE included a purpose section, the 
2023 version does not. The purpose within the 2021 version stated ``The 
purpose of this Act is to increase public safety by ensuring access to 
financial services to cannabis-related legitimate businesses and 
service providers and reducing the amount of cash at such businesses.''
    I recommend reinserting a purpose section and amending the purpose 
of SAFE to read as follows: ``The purpose of this Act is to provide 
protections for financial institutions that provide financial services 
to State-sanctioned marijuana businesses, hemp-related legitimate 
businesses and related service providers, and to promote fairness and 
safety in the provision of related financial services.''
    Beyond ensuring that fairness and safety are explicitly stated as 
priorities, the inclusion of a purpose section is particularly 
important because SAFE would require that updated guidance from Federal 
banking regulators for financial institutions servicing the cannabis 
industry ``ensure consistency with the purpose and intent'' of SAFE. 
Without a purpose, this requirement is not practicable.
Legacy Deposits
    SAFE includes new provisions that would create restrictions for 
financial institutions accepting cash deposits, which SAFE refers to as 
``Legacy Deposits''.
    First as a matter of principle, the term legacy within the cannabis 
and hemp community has come to mean a number of different things, but 
generally centers around the idea of a longstanding participant in 
trade and or community. However, the SAFE Banking Act's use of the term 
``legacy'' in reference to cash deposits, is largely disconnected from 
how this term is used in the cannabis and hemp trade community, 
especially considering that it creates a requirement that would likely 
prevent most legacy operators from accessing banking in that it limits 
a financial institution's ability to accept cash from a State-
sanctioned marijuana business to a 90-day period. Moreover, these 
restrictions apply to all cash deposits. And the term legacy here 
doesn't add value but may instead cause contention and confusion. 
Therefore, instead of referring to these deposits as legacy deposits, I 
recommend that the SAFE Banking Act be amended to strike any reference 
to the term legacy and simply refer to these deposits as cash deposits.
    Moreover, the 90-day period should be reconsidered to specifically 
assess what impact this limitation has on promoting fair access to 
financial services for State-sanctioned marijuana businesses.
Technical Clean Up
    Technical Clarification--Sec. 11(1) should be amended to ensure the 
Federal banking regulator's diversity and inclusion report includes 
``hemp-related legitimate businesses.''
    Technical Clarification--Sec. 12 (a) should be amended to ensure 
the GAO study on diversity and inclusion includes ``removing barriers 
to marketplace success.''
    I urge your consideration of these requests for technical but 
meaningful improvements to SAFE to promote fairness and for your 
ongoing efforts to continue to work towards creating a more safe and 
fair regulatory framework.

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          RESPONSE TO WRITTEN QUESTION OF CHAIR BROWN
                      FROM ADEMOLA OYEFESO

Q.1. Mr. Oyefeso, can you discuss how businesses that do not 
directly work with cannabis but provide products or services to 
legal cannabis businesses, such as gardening or construction 
companies, might also have their banking impacted by the 
Federal status of cannabis? How does this affect the workers of 
these businesses?

A.1. UFCW represents workers who work directly for cannabis-
related businesses and not ancillary businesses. Our members 
can be found in growing and cultivating facilities, in 
manufacturing and processing facilities, as well as in 
laboratories and dispensaries. The people who grow, process, 
test, distribute, and sell cannabis deserve a fair and safe 
workplace like any other worker in America.
    UFCW has established a cannabis apprenticeship program and 
been limited by the national banking laws. We are not able to 
take the program national, because of limits on interstate 
banking. UFCW believes all jobs in the cannabis industry should 
be family sustaining with good wages, benefits, and 
opportunities for advancement at every level from seed to sale. 
These jobs should have the skills and training that build the 
public and consumers' confidence in both the safety of the 
product and industry as a whole. One of the building blocks to 
achieve this is the professionalization of work in the industry 
through the establishment of cannabis industry apprenticeships. 
Training through apprenticeships ensures workers in this 
emerging industry have the skills and training required to be 
successful in the field. The SAFE Banking Act will enable UFCW 
to grow our apprenticeship program to meet the needs of 
workers, the industry, and the community.
                                ------                                


               RESPONSES TO WRITTEN QUESTIONS OF
             SENATOR MENENDEZ FROM ADEMOLA OYEFESO

Q.1. Multiple surveys have shown that the cannabis industry is 
largely White and male dominated. Minority groups that 
disproportionately lack access to credit and preexisting 
relationships with banks and regulators face extra challenges 
in an industry like cannabis where financial service access is 
sharply limited and regulatory burdens are high.
    Would passing SAFE Banking reduce barriers to entry and 
make the cannabis industry more equitable?

A.1. Cannabis banking is an equity issue. Since banks cannot 
loan money to CRBs you need to either self-capitalize or have 
access to capital--two things which prospective minority 
business owners have traditionally had less access to than 
their White, male counterparts.
    Many of the States legalizing cannabis have developed 
licensing schemes designed to meet the specific State's needs 
and policy goals including strong social equity provisions. 
Federal permitting, taxation, or regulation should build upon 
State laws rather than set a single Federal standard. It is 
important that Federal legislation preserve the State-based 
nature of the industry as much as possible. This will allow 
States to continue to regulate the industry in a way that 
respects established laws and community standards.
    Equity is an empty and hollow phrase unless it is made real 
and meaningful to the majority of working people living in 
those communities that were harmed by the war on drugs. The 
discussion of equity in the cannabis space is more than about 
who owns these businesses, but about all of the stakeholders--
especially the industry's workers. The greatest benefit of 
cannabis banking will not come from creating a handful of 
successful, wealthy business owners of color, but from 
fostering a pipeline of good paying jobs throughout the 
cannabis industry that are widely available to persons from 
impacted communities. And equity cannot be achieved as long as 
we bar workers from traditional banking. This creates another 
race and class-based barrier of entry for workers.

Q.2. Without access to traditional banking services, cannabis 
enterprises are forced to operate entirely in large sums of 
cash. As a result, news reports from the last few years have 
shown an uptick in armed robberies at cannabis dispensaries.
    What safety risks does forcing marijuana businesses to 
operate exclusively with cash raise for workers, businesses, 
and the broader community?

A.2. Miranda Beck, a cannabis worker at Starbuds in Baltimore, 
Maryland, told us a story of a security guard and a worker who 
were robbed of cash and cannabis product at gunpoint. She said:

        It's well known that there is a lot of cash inside 
        dispensaries because dispensaries can't accept credit 
        cards. At Starbuds we were also paid in cash--each week 
        we would have to go in (even on our days off, which was 
        hard for some people without their own cars) to collect 
        an envelope with our wages.

        They took taxes out, but we were paid in cash--so were 
        the vendors. I worried about safety at work every day--
        not just for myself and my coworkers, but our patients.

        Some patients were robbed in the parking lot when they 
        were coming in to buy their medicine.

    One UFCW local leader in California notes: ``The lack of 
regulation and security measures in the cannabis industry also 
puts delivery drivers at risk, as they may not have access to 
proper training or protective equipment. Without banking, our 
cannabis delivery driver members carry large amounts of cash 
and valuable products, making them a prime target for robbery 
and assault.''
    Cannabis workers, like every other business venture, 
deserve the same right to work in safe conditions. SAFE Banking 
is one very easy way to make our worksites safer, by allowing 
them to take debit and credit card transactions and thus not 
being such tempting targets for theft.

Q.3. Illegal cannabis operations pose a serious public health 
risk. A study from the New York Medical Cannabis Industry 
Association found that 40 percent of cannabis products from 
illicit stores in New York City contained harmful contaminants, 
such as E. Coli, lead, and salmonella.
    Will allowing legitimate marijuana businesses, which abide 
by State and local health and safety regulations, access to 
banking and insurance services mitigate some of these safety 
concerns?

A.3. UFCW has experience in well-regulated industries, like 
meat processing. We know that treating cannabis as a regulated, 
age-restricted, legal consumer product will protect the 
industry and its workers. Operating in a legal gray area is not 
good for consumers, workers, and businesses.
    Currently legal cannabis businesses have the oversight and 
accountability of any other business, without all of the 
financial tools and resources. Cannabis-related businesses 
should have access to conventional financial services and the 
oversight that comes with it, so that the businesses, as well 
as the workers, will have the tools to ensure a safe product 
and safe working environment.
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                RESPONSE TO WRITTEN QUESTION OF
             SENATOR FETTERMAN FROM ADEMOLA OYEFESO

Q.1. I have heard stories from union members and leaders who 
have significant safety concerns about working conditions in 
cannabis-related businesses. Can you elaborate on this and 
speak to potential solutions to their concerns?

A.1. Cannabis workers throughout the industry chain are exposed 
to a large number of hazards and risks--many of which are still 
not fully known. Cannabis employees work with high-intensity UV 
lights that can harm skin and eyes; with CO2 and 
other gases which become poisonous without constant monitoring; 
and with pesticides and other chemicals. Cannabis employees are 
also exposed to mold, heat stress, dust, aerosols, flammable 
solvents, toxic gases, and other volatile chemicals and fire 
hazards. Finally, workers risk physical safety when their place 
of business is cash only, making them a greater target for 
crime.
    As for solutions, Congress should ensure that the highest 
possible workplace safety standards are set in this industry. 
Congress should:

    Allow OSHA to immediately start work on a national 
        workplace safety standard for legal cannabis business, 
        using the regulations set by California as a model.

    Fund longitudinal studies on the long-term effects 
        of exposure to the chemicals involved with growing, 
        processing, and selling cannabis.

    Give the Department of Agriculture the ability to 
        set standards for the use of pesticide application.

    Pass SAFE Banking to protect cannabis workers and 
businesses from the violent crime all cash businesses attract.
                                ------                                


          RESPONSE TO WRITTEN QUESTION OF CHAIR BROWN
                        FROM CAT PACKER

Q.1. Ms. Packer, when small cannabis businesses do find banks 
and credit unions that are willing to provide financial 
services to them, they sometimes have to pay exorbitantly high 
fees and encounter other barriers. Can you talk about why this 
is and how it can impact small cannabis businesses and their 
workers?

A.1. Response not received in time for publication.
                                ------                                


               RESPONSES TO WRITTEN QUESTIONS OF
                SENATOR MENENDEZ FROM CAT PACKER

Q.1. Under current law, State authorized cannabis business are 
not only locked out of the banking system, they are unable to 
obtain necessary insurance products such as workers 
compensation, property, casualty, and title insurance. This is 
a problem that needs to be fixed in order to ensure these 
businesses have access to the full range of financial services 
they need to run a business.
    Does lack of access to insurance negatively impact or even 
outright prevent business owners from obtaining bank financing?

A.1. Response not received in time for publication.

Q.2. According to estimates from cannabis data firm New 
Frontier Data, the national market for illicit marijuana is 
worth around $60 billion, twice as much as the legally 
regulated market.
    What are the consequences for legally operating businesses 
when a large portion of the market is operating illegally?

A.2. Response not received in time for publication.
                                ------                                


               RESPONSES TO WRITTEN QUESTIONS OF
               SENATOR FETTERMAN FROM CAT PACKER

Q.1. The SAFE Banking Act is a crucial first step, but it can't 
be the last. What do you see is the next step towards 
legalization after the SAFE Banking Act?

A.1. Response not received in time for publication.

Q.2. I believe expungement is crucial. Too many Americans have 
had their lives derailed because of a nonviolent marijuana 
conviction. My understanding is that even if the SAFE Banking 
Act were to pass, there would be potential problems when it 
comes to business owners who have previously been convicted of 
marijuana-related charges having access to financial services--
even if these charges have been expunged. Can you speak more to 
this potential problem? And what we can do to prevent it?

A.2. Response not received in time for publication.
              Additional Material Supplied for the Record

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