    [Senate Hearing 118-526]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]

                                                            S. Hrg. 118-526

                      SMALL BUSINESS AND THE CLEAN ENERGY
                          ECONOMY: LOWERING COSTS AND
                             INCREASING RESILIENCE

    =======================================================================

                                 FIELD HEARING

                                   BEFORE THE

                          COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS
                              AND ENTREPRENEURSHIP

                                     OF THE

                              UNITED STATES SENATE

                        ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                                 SECOND SESSION

                                   __________

                               SEPTEMBER 13, 2024

                                   __________

          Printed for the use of the Committee on Small Business and
                                Entrepreneurship

    [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

            Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov

                                    __________

                       U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
    57-903                  WASHINGTON : 2025

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

               COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS AND ENTREPRENEURSHIP
                        ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                                  ----------

                      JEANNE SHAHEEN, New Hampshire, Chair
                        JONI ERNST, Iowa, Ranking Member
    MARIA CANTWELL, Washington           MARCO RUBIO, Florida
    BENJAMIN L. CARDIN, Maryland         JAMES E. RISCH, Idaho
    EDWARD J. MARKEY, Massachusetts      RAND PAUL, Kentucky
    CORY A. BOOKER, New Jersey           TIM SCOTT, South Carolina
    CHRISTOPHER A. COONS, Delaware       TODD YOUNG, Indiana
    MAZIE K. HIRONO, Hawaii              JOHN KENNEDY, Louisiana
    TAMMY DUCKWORTH, Illinois            JOSH HAWLEY, Missouri
    JOHN W. HICKENLOOPER, Colorado       TED BUDD, North Carolina
                     Sean Moore, Democratic Staff Director
                    Meredith West, Republican Staff Director

                                C O N T E N T S

                                  ----------

                               SEPTEMBER 13, 2024

                                                                       Page

                                   WITNESSES

    Ms. Sarah Waring, State Director, Vermont and New Hampshire USDA,
      Rural Development, Montpelier, VT..............................     4
        Prepared Statement...........................................     7
    Mr. Sam Evans-Brown, Executive Director, Clean Energy NH,
      Concord, NH....................................................    10
        Prepared Statement...........................................    12
    Mr. Dan Weeks, Vice President, Business Development, ReVision
      Energy, Nashua, NH.............................................    19
        Prepared Statement...........................................    22
    Ms. Melissa Florio, President, Ambix Manufacturing, Freedom, NH..    32
        Prepared Statement...........................................    35

                  ADDITIONAL LETTERS/STATEMENTS FOR THE RECORD

    Ranking Member Joni Ernst
        Statement dated September 13, 2024...........................    47
    Rebecca Perkins Kwoka, New Hampshire State Senator
        Statement dated September 12, 2024...........................    49

        SMALL BUSINESS AND THE CLEAN ENERGY ECONOMY: LOWERING COSTS AND
                             INCREASING RESILIENCE

                                  ----------

                           FRIDAY, SEPTEMBER 13, 2024

                                   U.S. Senate,
                            Committee on Small Business
                                          and Entrepreneurship,
                                                        Washington, DC.
        The committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:36 a.m., in
    University of New Hampshire at Manchester, Pandora Mill
    Building, Room 201, 88 Commercial Street, Manchester, NH 03101,
    Hon. Jeanne Shaheen, chairman of the committee, presiding.
        Present: Senator Shaheen [presiding].

                  OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR SHAHEEN

        The Chairman. Good morning. I am Jeanne Shaheen. I am
    currently the chair of the Small Business and Entrepreneurship
    Committee in the Senate.
        And I am so excited to be able to be doing this hearing in
    New Hampshire with a number of our small business owners in New
    Hampshire who have worked on energy issues, as well as with
    some Government folks who are here to talk about what is
    available for resources for small businesses.
        So, thank you all for joining us. I will officially open
    the hearing as soon as we hear from Dean Decelle who heads UNH
    Manchester, and we are so delighted to have you host this
    morning.
        Mr. Decelle. Thank you, Senator.
        [Technical problems.]
        Mr. Decelle. For those of you who have not been here
    before, this is the University of New Hampshire's urban campus.
    We are home to about 1,000 graduate and undergraduate students
    here on campus. We have been here in the Millyard, this
    building in particular, since 2015. It is part of the
    university's commitment to support of students that want to
    attend their college education closer to home.
        We are in general a commuter school that serves students
    that have complicated life stories. They work, they have
    families. And so we occupy, we think, a special space in the
    higher education infrastructure here. We also consider
    ourselves a gathering space. So we support K through 12 student
    outreach programs. We also, at the other end of the spectrum,
    deploy continuing education programs for adult learners. So we
    have a New Hampshire extension office here.
        We also have the Osher Lifelong Learning Institute. We
    really see a spectrum of learners not limited to college
    learners. So this kind of conversation is something that we
    really are proud to support.
        This conversation in particular holds a special spot for
    me. Before being here in higher ed, I spent several years
    running a renewable energy company down in Cambridge,
    Massachusetts. So this--there's more. [Laughter.]
        Mr. Decelle. So I hope you have a great conversation. I am
    looking forward to listening in to it as well. And enjoy your
    morning. Thanks. [Laughter.]
        The Chairman. The Senate Committee on Small Business and
    Entrepreneurship will come to order. It is really an honor to
    be here today, and we very much appreciate Dean Decelle's
    remarks and hosting us this morning.
        I want to welcome our witnesses who I will introduce
    officially in a few minutes, but I want to introduce some of
    the folks who are making this hearing possible this morning.
    And I think some of you have attended other small business
    hearings that we have held in New Hampshire, but for those of
    you who haven't, this is just like a hearing in Washington, DC.
        We have the staff from the committee who have come up to
    make sure that we take notes, that everything is conducted
    properly. All of the testimony will go into the committee's
    record and will be shared with the other members of the
    committee. And so, anything that is done here will be done just
    as if we were in Washington, DC.
        So with that in mind, let me introduce some of the people
    from the committee who are making this possible. And you will
    see how many people it takes to do some of this. First, I want
    to introduce Sean Moore, who is the staff director for the
    committee. He works for the majority because we are divided
    into majority and minority on the committee as we are on all
    committees.
        Sujin Kim, who is with the majority staff. Sebastian Rojas,
    who is also with the majority staff. Kathryn Eden, who is the
    chief clerk. Kathryn, there you are. And then from the minority
    staff, we have Meredith West, who is the minority staff
    director. Thanks for joining us. And Corey Cooke, who is also
    with the minority staff, who actually went to UNH law, right?
    So, it's nice to have all of you here.
        Thank you, and particularly nice for them to be here in New
    Hampshire at this time of year, right. I also want to introduce
    some of the folks from my personal staff who it is important, I
    think, for all of you to know. Tina Kasim works with small
    business issues with the staff. She is in the back of the room.
        Elizabeth McKenna, who is on my energy staff, is here.
    Raise your hand so everybody knows how to find you at the end
    of this hearing. Jen Hughes is doing communications, so she
    will be taking pictures if you see her with the camera. John
    Jarvis is the head of operations for our offices, in the back.
        And Will Garrity Binger is here from Washington. He does
    small business issues on the Washington staff. And Janelle
    DiLuccia does energy issues on the Washington staff. She is
    also here. And Robin Hwang, who I think is here someplace.
    Where is he? Okay, good. He is signing people in.
        So any of them, feel free if you have questions or there is
    something that you think our office could help with, please
    contact us and let us know. Now, to get back to the official
    remarks. Today, we are going to discuss an issue that I think
    is of real importance to small business. It is important to all
    of us but small businesses because they are on the cutting edge
    and often it is more of a concern for them.
        We are going to talk about energy efficiency and reducing
    energy costs for small businesses. It is an issue that I have
    been very interested in since before I was Governor.
    Particularly energy efficiency, because I think efficiency is
    the cheapest, fastest way to deal with our energy needs.
        And now, as the drivers of our economy, small businesses
    feel the squeeze of increasing costs first. They are especially
    vulnerable to market volatility. And as we saw after Russia
    invaded Ukraine in 2022, it is a particular challenge.
        In 2021, Congress passed what we call the bipartisan
    infrastructure law that really invests in clean energy in a way
    that we had not to the same extent in the past. It includes a
    robust energy workforce and a cleaner, more reliable electric
    grid.
        And there are key provisions in that legislation that I
    worked on with Rob Portman, who was then a Senator from Ohio.
    He and I had worked on that legislation for a decade. When we
    negotiated the bipartisan infrastructure law, we were able to
    get many of the provisions in there to address energy
    efficiency, to address electric vehicle infrastructure, to help
    us revitalize brownfield sites, and ultimately, hopefully
    create more good paying jobs in our communities.
        A year later, Congress passed the most significant climate
    legislation in history, which is designed to dramatically
    reduce greenhouse gas emissions and invest in clean energy
    generation. That act invests nearly $370 billion in clean
    energy through expanded tax credits and funding for programs
    like the Rural Energy for America Program.
        And we have a number of folks here who we are going to talk
    about a little later who can help put people in touch with some
    of those resources that are available. But the programs are
    aimed directly at small businesses and at farms in States like
    New Hampshire, where we have a big rural part of our economy.
        Clean and efficient energy benefits everyone across all
    parts of New Hampshire, and for small businesses, it can slash
    energy bills while keeping up profits and keeping our
    communities vibrant. It also helps insulate small businesses
    from increasing costs. And what we are seeing more and more is
    severe weather from climate change. We see that here in New
    Hampshire. We see it around the world.
        They are beginning to affect energy prices everywhere. And
    again, small businesses are the first to be affected by some of
    those higher energy prices. That's why it is so important to
    make sure that our small businesses can access the resources
    that are available to help with affordable, clean energy.
        There are a lot of tools and opportunities that are
    available to our small businesses to cut costs and transition
    to clean energy. And following today's hearing, we will have
    representatives from several federally supported agencies and
    State, we have a number of State organizations with us as well,
    who we are going to talk about what is available to small
    businesses.
        They are here to try and answer your questions and to be
    helpful. So, thank you again to our witnesses for joining us
    and for your testimony today and for being part of this
    discussion. And now I will begin and introduce each of our
    witnesses. First, Sarah Waring, who is on the far right, is the
    State Director for Vermont and New Hampshire at the United
    States Department of Agriculture Rural Development, or USDA RD.
        I am sure that all of you get very frustrated with some of
    the acronyms, so I will try not to use them. But in her role,
    Ms. Waring administers a number of key rural development
    programs, including the highly successful Rural Energy for
    America Program, or REA. We are so delighted that you are here
    with us, Sarah, and looking forward to hearing your testimony.
        Next to Sarah is Sam Evans-Brown, who is the Executive
    Director at Clean Energy New Hampshire. It is an advocacy
    organization that is working to move the State toward a cleaner
    and more resilient energy future. Clean Energy New Hampshire
    also provides technical assistance to small businesses on how
    to transition to clean energy and lower their energy costs.
        Mr. Evans-Brown grew up in the Lakes region of the Granite
    State, and he spent over 10 years as a podcast host and radio
    journalist with New Hampshire Public Radio before joining Clean
    Energy New Hampshire. So you should be able to know how to get
    the word out about this.
        Next to Sam is Dan Weeks, who is Vice President of Business
    Development at ReVision Energy. ReVision is an employee owned,
    Certified B Corp solar installation company. They work directly
    with small firms to help them secure funding for their clean
    energy transition and complete their solar installations.
        Mr. Weeks is a 12th generation Granite Stater. That has got
    to be close to a record setting, Dan. And he has over seven
    years of experience at ReVision, leading and working with
    commercial and institutional partners to accelerate the clean
    energy transition.
        And finally is Melissa Florio, who is President of Ambix
    Manufacturing. It is a small business in the White Mountains
    who provides plastic engineering and custom contact injection
    molding manufacturing. And I am sure she will explain it much
    better than I when we get to her testimony.
        She also serves on the Small Business Administration's
    Office of the National Ombudsman Regulatory Fairness Board for
    Region One, a very important role. So again, thank you all for
    being here, and I will ask Sarah to begin.

      STATEMENT OF SARAH WARING, STATE DIRECTOR, VERMONT AND NEW
         HAMPSHIRE, USDA RURAL DEVELOPMENT, MONTPELIER, VERMONT

        Ms. Waring. Chairwoman Shaheen, and for the entire Senate
    Committee on Small Business and Entrepreneurship, it is an
    honor to be here today and to provide testimony on this really
    important issue for New Hampshire businesses and for rural
    America, lowering energy costs and putting money back in the
    pockets of our entrepreneurs. It is a crucial discussion, and I
    am honored to be a part of the hearing.
        My name is Sarah Waring. I am the Rural Development State
    Director for New Hampshire, the Granite State, and Vermont, the
    Green Mountain State. And first, I would like to offer my
    heartfelt condolences to the communities in Grafton and Coos
    County, who are still struggling to recover from flooding
    events this summer, and for our farmers and producers who are
    managing the impacts of last year's devastating May frost.
        For as long as it takes, the Biden-Harris Administration
    and USDA Rural Development and our sister agencies will deploy
    every resource we have to be able to help rebuild and recover
    in New Hampshire.
        As I mentioned, our jurisdiction covers two States, and
    both of those States are pretty rural. So 70 percent of New
    Hampshire residents and 90 percent of Vermonters live in
    communities with fewer than 5,000 people. Both States have
    heavily weighted employment percentages towards educational
    services, health care, and social services, which is why small
    business development is so important in our region.
        According to the SBA, there are over 130,000 small
    businesses operating in New Hampshire as of last year, and that
    employs about 49 percent of our State's workforce. Today, I
    will focus on one of our flagship programs that lowers costs
    for those small businesses, but I want to first take a moment
    to tell you a little bit about how our agency injects money
    directly into rural communities through housing, infrastructure
    development, and business support.
        We have over 70 grant and loan programs and products
    available that we offer nationwide. Over the last five years,
    we have invested roughly $1.3 billion in the Twin States, and
    that translates to more than 3,400 families with safe housing,
    570 businesses supported and lowering their costs, and 260
    community institutions, from town halls and transfer stations
    to high schools and hospitals that have been built or
    modernized.
        Today, my focus is on the rural Energy for America or REAP
    program. The Biden-Harris Administration's historic and
    bipartisan Inflation Reduction Act saw significant changes to
    that program that has created an incredible response from our
    customers. REAP offers two pathways to funding, one for
    renewable energy projects and the others for energy efficiency
    projects. Under the Inflation Reduction Act, these program
    elements doubled.
        The grant match went from just 25 percent of total project
    cost to 50 percent, and the dollar amounts went from $250,000
    for an energy efficiency project, to $500,000, or $500,000 to
    $1 million for renewable energy projects. Since the beginning
    of the Biden-Harris Administration, USDA Rural Development has
    invested in 7,566 REAP projects in America for a total of $2.2
    billion across the country.
        And on average, the projects lower energy costs for
    businesses and recipients by about $25,000 annually, and they
    create enough clean energy to power 630,000 households each
    year. I want to share just two stories from New Hampshire. A
    Place to Grow is a nature based childcare, founded and
    franchised in Brentwood by Jen Legere. In 2018, she applied for
    two small REAP grants, one to weatherize her building and one
    for installing solar.
        With these combined projects, she saved her childcare
    business around $6,000 a year. Another good example is the
    Candia First Stoppe, which is a unique country store, gas
    station, truck stop, restaurant, and event space where co-
    owners Joe Sobol and Craig St. Peter jumped at the chance for
    nearly $838,000 grant in late 2023, which will install a 561.6
    kilowatt solar array. This system will translate to more than
    $133,000 in annual savings for their business.
        So whether the projects are large or small, they are
    ultimately making a big difference on the bottom line for our
    small businesses. I also want to celebrate our technical
    assistance partners, the New Hampshire Community Development
    Finance Authority, who is here today, Clean Energy New
    Hampshire, who is here today, have worked alongside Rural
    Development for years, supporting businesses and communities
    alike to navigate Federal funding.
        Now, the Energy Circuit Rider Program, which Sam will talk
    more about, has been significantly expanded through Inflation
    Reduction Act, REAP technical assistance grants, where they
    work hand in hand with businesses to gain access to our
    funding. However, our supply has not met the demand, and the
    numbers tell the story.
        In New Hampshire, we received 26 applications in 2022, 54
    applications in 2023, and as of today, 84 applications in 2024.
    New Hampshire customers alone this year are requesting $21
    million of energy improvements and renewable energy projects.
    When we include our Vermont applications, the demand has jumped
    100 percent in 2023 and now an additional 68 percent in '24.
        Furthermore, REAP is one of dozens of other business,
    housing, and utility programs that our agency offers that can
    address energy costs and energy transition. Accommodating and
    adapting to our increased portfolio, both in number of programs
    as well as changes in those program funding levels, has been
    incredibly difficult for our small staff.
        In closing today, my key points are this, our programs are
    effective in driving down costs for small businesses. Your
    work, Senator, getting the Inflation Reduction Act passed has
    been transformational, and the Biden-Harris Administration has
    mobilized our agency to act on that transformation.
        Our staff work incredibly well, but only as far as the
    capacity we have to process applications. And our partners on
    the ground offering technical assistance are crucial resources
    for our small business owners and farmers.
        I want to thank you for the time today and we look forward
    to continuing to work with you and your staff for the State of
    New Hampshire.
        [The prepared statement of Ms. Waring follows:]
       [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        The Chairman. Thank you very much for your testimony. Sam.

    STATEMENT OF SAM EVANS-BROWN, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, CLEAN ENERGY
                 NEW HAMPSHIRE, CONCORD, NEW HAMPSHIRE

        Mr. Evans-Brown. Thank you, Chairwoman Shaheen, for
    inviting me. It truly is an honor. I will confess, I don't
    think I even realized how much of a big deal this was until I
    arrived here today. So I really appreciate everyone for bearing
    with me as this is certainly my first time sitting up in a
    chair like this.
        Clean Energy New Hampshire is, as you have just heard, a
    recipient of the REAP technical assistance grant. If you have
    not spoken to them already, Gabe and Katherine, Gabe Chelius
    and Katherine Cusack are there on the right. They are the real
    experts in this program, and I encourage anyone who is
    interested to read the written testimony that they were
    extremely helpful in preparing that has more details in terms
    of what we have to say about the programs.
        I think I will take a moment here just to talk about what
    we think is needed to really move the needle towards a clean
    energy future, which is an easy button. I think small
    businesses, as well as regular folks, and municipal governments
    need an easy button in order to figure out how to pursue these
    types of projects and one simply does not exist.
        If you have a fossil fuel fired boiler in your building and
    it fails, the easy button is you call a contractor and that
    contractor replaces a like with like on an emergency basis, and
    that is overwhelmingly what happens out in the world.
        And if you want to pursue one of the types of projects that
    we assist communities and small businesses with, you are in for
    a quite a journey. So when I started in 2021, we had Melissa
    Elander, who was our first energy circuit writer.
        She had been--her position had been created in a
    partnership with the New Hampshire Charitable Foundation after
    an extensive process where the question was asked, why is it
    that communities do not pursue energy efficiency investments if
    these investments pay for themselves? And the answer was, it is
    complicated.
        The funding landscape is confusing, and it is not easy to
    figure this out. And so, Melissa's position was created in an
    attempt to be the easy button for low income, rural communities
    in Northern New Hampshire. I benefited from all of that work.
        And when I started at Clean Energy New Hampshire,
    overwhelmingly what I heard was we need more people like
    Melissa out in communities, and that is what we are endeavoring
    to do at Clean Energy New Hampshire.
        The Energy Circuit Rider team now has seven employees. We
    have four employees who are helping drive municipal projects,
    and Gabe and Katherine who are helping with small businesses.
    So we are attempting to build that easy button, and we do so in
    partnership with all of our--all of the other actors in this
    space.
        So great companies like Provision Energy, like the Energy
    Efficiency Contractors who are experts in the New Hampshire
    Saves programs, like CDFA who know how to work on community
    facilities, as well as many lenders and other providers of
    services in this space. That said, it is still not easy.
        What I have heard in talking to Gabe and Katherine that--
    was that the problems can be as prosaic as sitting down next to
    a small business owner and walking them through the same.gov
    website as they try to get themselves a Federal funding code,
    which is not a process that is as easy as you would like it to
    be, and that by itself can be a barrier to pursuing a grant
    that can make or break the economics of a project that you are
    hoping to pursue.
        And it is not the only hurdle. Each of these programs is
    subject to their own somewhat arcane cost-benefits test and
    understanding the types of measures that are likely to be
    successful or to be funded through the various programs really
    requires an expert in order to know in advance if you are going
    to be successful.
        And to drill down on that, I too consider myself an expert
    in these programs, but it was not until crafting the written
    testimony that I submitted that I really understood at a
    slightly more granular level how complicated it really is, and
    it was really Gabe and Katherine who have been doing this now
    for a year with small businesses who informed me the types of
    measures that are likely to be funded by the various funding
    streams.
        So New Hampshire Saves, good for refrigeration and lighting
    and motors, not great for weatherization. REAP-TAG, sometimes
    you struggle to have an efficiency project get funding through
    REAP-TAG because of the way the payback period is calculated in
    REAP-TAG.
        REAP unfortunately does not take into account the actual
    rate structure that small businesses pay where they are subject
    to a demand charge. So any benefits in reducing a demand charge
    are not considered in the payback period calculation. And all
    of these are impediments to getting projects done that I think
    that we need to think really hard about how we get over them.
        That said, these funding sources are crucial. They are
    absolutely crucial. And there are many businesses that would
    not be considering pursuing any project other than replacing
    like with like if it were not for these funding streams.
        And so, I encourage the Senate to think really hard about
    how to streamline the delivery of these funding streams, but
    also how we defend them into--going forward into the future
    until we find ourselves in a place where the market has
    transformed to such a degree that the easy button is being
    delivered by private services, which I think is where we all
    hope we'll wind up. With that, I will cease.
        [The prepared statement of Mr. Evans-Brown follows:]
        [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        The Chairman. Thank you very much. Dan.

     STATEMENT OF DAN WEEKS, VICE PRESIDENT, BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT,
                 REVISION ENERGY, NASHUA, NEW HAMPSHIRE

        Mr. Weeks. Good morning. Thank you so much, Chairwoman
    Shaheen. Dan Weeks with ReVision Energy and it is an honor to
    be here. Also my first rodeo alongside Sarah, Sam, and Melissa.
    I am one of the co-owners at ReVision Energy, and while I
    enjoy--get to enjoy sitting here in a nice air conditioned
    room, I definitely want to tip my hat to my co-owners who are
    out on rooftops today.
        It is a perfect fall day, although it I think it will reach
    up into the 80s. Not our usual back when I was a kid at least
    in September, and they are out there in all weather, all days
    of the year installing the clean energy future that is core to
    our mission, which is to make life better by building our just
    and equitable electric future.
        ReVision is honored to work with and the team that I lead
    in our commercial business is honored to work with dozens at
    any given time of small businesses and independent businesses
    around New Hampshire, and we are proud ourselves to be a small,
    independent, and employee owned business with offices just up
    the highway in Brentwood, as well as in the Upper Valley.
        As has been stated already, New Hampshire businesses do
    face significant costs, both in terms of direct costs from
    electricity and other energy needs, and increasingly as we are
    coming to realize the indirect costs of climate damage.
        I am glad that Sarah mentioned the floods that have been so
    severe most recently in the North country, in New Hampshire,
    where my family comes from, and driving those streets just this
    past summer has been a stark reminder not just of the costs
    that towns bear in terms of infrastructure damage as roads and
    bridges wash out, but also businesses that are getting flooded
    and having to deal with these ever rising energy inputs.
        I wanted to keep with the theme that Sam mentioned, and I
    will let my more detailed testimony speak for itself, but to
    draw a couple of key themes, and in particularly the challenges
    to implementation of what are proven commercialized
    technologies at this point, particularly when it comes to a
    category of--and I will focus on solar technology, although we
    also do energy storage, and EV charging, and thermal solutions.
        But particularly in the case of solar energy when it comes
    to shared community solar projects or off site projects, which
    frankly are often the only way that small, very small
    businesses, as well as families can benefit from the clean
    energy transition because many of them, many of those 130,000
    small businesses registered in the State of New Hampshire,
    don't own their own facilities and don't have an opportunity to
    install on-site. But first, a word on what is available to
    small businesses today.
        Thanks in large part to the Inflation Reduction Act and
    other Federal incentives for small businesses that do own their
    roof and have a solar suitable facility, because of the 43
    percent decline in the cost of solar technology over the last
    10 years, because of the continuation of Federal incentives,
    which were supposed to be just a 10 percent tax credit here in
    2024.
        But thanks to the Inflation Reduction Act were returned to
    their historic level of 30 percent with the opportunity for
    bonus tax credits in certain cases, the combination of
    increasing efficiency, lowering cost of the technology, and
    continued and enhanced Federal incentives does mean that if a
    small business in New Hampshire owns their roof, chances are
    they can offset most or all of their energy needs and they can
    do so at a very reasonable return on investment, typically
    about a 10 year payback, sometimes as low as 7 years, with an
    internal rate of return somewhere north of 10 percent very
    often, which is better than the stock market most years.
        And by doing so, as we already heard from Sarah, they can
    save $16,000 a year or more, depending on what their current
    energy spend is. It is a tremendous opportunity, and we have
    been blessed to work with over 1,000 small businesses and other
    commercial customers, along with nearly 20,000 residential
    customers over the last 21 years.
        So for onsite applications, the technology has proven the
    permitting and interconnection are generally manageable, and
    the savings are very real. However, as noted, most New
    Hampshire small businesses just don't have the opportunity to
    install on their own facility, and they look to, and we hear
    from them very often wanting to find some way to participate in
    the energy transition.
        The natural solution, which our company by virtue of
    operating in neighboring States as well as New Hampshire, has
    been able to put in place over the last 10 plus years is
    community or shared solar farms.
        And I want to briefly mention three key challenges that I
    think the Federal Government can help to overcome, although
    they are in particular challenges we face at the local and
    State level, that are unfortunately impeding the development of
    offsite community solar farms in New Hampshire, even as other
    States are many years ahead.
        The first set of challenges relates to net metering, which
    is a State level policy. But to put it in practical terms, the
    retail cost of electricity, if you take the average rate over
    the last three years, for small businesses in New Hampshire is
    about $0.18 per kilowatt hour. If you are offsetting your power
    needs on site, you are getting close to that for retail rate.
        However, if you are getting your energy from a shared
    community solar project by virtue of New Hampshire's net
    metering statute, you are getting just 10.4 cents today. Not
    only is that a little more than half of the total rate, the
    retail rate, it is also about half of the empirical value of
    solar, as New Hampshire's Department of Energy has determined
    through value of distributed resources studies that they have
    completed and is also about half of the rate in other States
    where we are seeing community solar take off.
        So net metering is a real challenge, and it is further made
    more difficult by the fact that we have an arbitrary cap of 1
    megawatt on the size of projects that can serve small
    businesses or families or nonprofits in New Hampshire.
    Economies of scale are terribly important in these projects.
        A second hurdle is around permitting, and I mentioned
    economies of scale because there are fixed costs that any
    offsite project must bear. Typically at least $100,000 just in
    obtaining State permits. For New Hampshire, the threshold for
    requiring those permits is about 2 acres. In other States, it
    is about 20 acres for that very high level of permitting
    diligence that is required and that brings significant costs.
        And then finally around interconnection, which I could
    spend all day on, but historically, it has taken weeks or
    months to obtain interconnection agreements, and those have
    cost a few thousand dollars in initial studies.
        Today, for especially offsite projects, it is taking
    multiple years, and the cost of studies alone are generally
    $25,000 to $50,000, with interconnection upgrades anywhere from
    $100,000 to $1 million.
        The Chairman. Dan, just explain very briefly what
    interconnection--what you are talking about when you say
    interconnection----
        Mr. Weeks. Yes. Thank you, Senator.
        The Chairman [continuing]. For those people who might not
    know.
        Mr. Weeks. So these projects are by default grid tied,
    meaning that they are delivering their electrons directly to
    the utility grid.
        And the utilities, whose primary and very important job is
    to maintain a reliable, resilient grid are often using that
    opportunity, you might say, to contribute to other beneficial
    upgrades.
        So in New Hampshire, where we don't have any State
    interconnection rules, they can require a number of upgrades
    which are generally not required for comparable projects in
    other States. Reclosers, other protective devices, which is
    what brings the cost to $500,000, or $1 million, or more. So
    those are three challenges.
        And just to wrap up, as I noted, in spite of these
    challenges, this is an exciting time in the renewable energy
    industry in New Hampshire. About $180 million was invested in
    just solar in New Hampshire last year. Our total installed
    capacity, about 280 megawatts. Sam can correct me there.
        Although that is--unfortunately pales in comparison to what
    we see South of the border at over 5,000 megawatts of deployed
    solar in more than 1,100 in Maine. So there is a lot of room to
    grow. And the final note, I would say is while we have over
    1,000 people working in the solar industry today in New
    Hampshire, about 100 at ReVision, the potential to grow that is
    enormous.
        And one way in which ReVision has been focused on the
    workforce challenge is about seven years ago, we established
    the first in-house electrical apprenticeship program at a U.S.
    solar company.
        So far, we have graduated--in a couple of weeks we will
    graduate I think our 60th or maybe 65th electricians here in
    New Hampshire, which we are very proud of. And it is a program
    that we are desperate to expand with support from Department of
    Labor and others because we believe electricians will save the
    world.
        So, I will conclude in again tipping my hat to my
    colleagues who are out on rooftops today getting the job done.
    Thank you.
        [The prepared statement of Mr. Weeks follows:]
       [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        The Chairman. Thanks very much, Dan. Melissa.

      STATEMENT OF MELISSA FLORIO, PRESIDENT, AMBIX MANUFACTURING
                         FREEDOM, NEW HAMPSHIRE

        Ms. Florio. Hello, everyone. Okay. So, first of all, thank
    you, Madam Chairman, and all the members of the committee for
    holding this hearing and allow me the opportunity to share with
    you our journey to sustainability with regards to our reliance
    on the electric grid.
        I will try my best to explain plastics injection molding,
    now that you have thrown that on me and please bear with me. I
    have spent the last few days in D.C. As Senator Shaheen said,
    one of my roles is as--Fairness Regulatory Board, and we just
    had our annual meeting. It was only two days, but I felt like
    two weeks.
        We had so much squished into those two days. So Ambix
    Manufacturing, we are one of the 33 million small businesses
    here in the United States, and we were founded in 2008 up in
    the White Mountains of New Hampshire. And we provide plastics
    engineering and custom contract and plastics injection molding.
        So if you imagine the olden days when you would play with
    your Play-Doh and you would have your Play-Doh in your whatever
    it might be, in your device and you would squeeze it and out
    would come your shape, that is kind of in a nutshell what we
    do. We would close loop injection molders that are all electric
    machines, and we heat up our resin sometimes to 500 +F with a
    lot of auxiliaries.
        We color our resins on site and do all fancy things with
    them. They get into a barrel through a feeder. They get--that
    feeder screw barrel pushes them into our injection mold. The
    water cools the mold, opens the mold, pops out the part. So
    that is essentially what injection molding is for plastics and
    there is all different types. There is extrusions. There is
    ceramic. But we do plastic injection molding.
        So we are an ISO 9000 certified company. We have
    responsibility to stakeholders as ISO 9000 certified company.
    We have to consider risks to Federal, State, local governments,
    residents of our town, our customers, our employees, and ensure
    that we are--always are providing, you know, a quality part and
    continuing operations. So for every potential new job at Ambix,
    we go through an assessment process.
        Do we have the capabilities to do the job or are they
    looking for extrusion? Are they looking for injection molding?
    Do we have the capacity? Can we provide a quality product? And
    most importantly, can we compete on cost? It is always costs.
    We know the Ambix team can provide a high quality product.
        Our Ambix team has been with us for years, some decades.
    That is not our problem. It is the wildcard is always cost. And
    in establishing Ambix, we were able to rely upon years of
    manufacturing and engineering experience consulting around the
    globe to take learned best practices and build our
    manufacturing floor to the most efficient leading manufacturer
    that we could be, minimizing waste.
        However, you know, we can't eliminate all waste, and there
    are some costs, but we were able to get ourselves at a level
    where we could compete with domestic manufacturers. But as you
    know, Ambix and other small businesses aren't competing just
    with domestic manufacturers. We are competing on an
    international level with manufacturers who are in countries
    that are subsidized by their home country that allows them to
    undercut us on our price points.
        So over the years, we have picked off the low lying fruit,
    as anyone would. We have brought in, you know--so let me just
    kind of back up. So there are three main issues that we have is
    labor, raw resin, and of course electricity because we run all
    electric machines. And so in doing so, we added automation and
    reduced that labor cost, right.
        As far as our resin cost prices, we were able to reduce
    only to a certain extent because we aren't that large domestic
    manufacturers, so we don't have railcars of resin coming into
    our backyard and going into silos. So there is not so much room
    on the cost of resin that we have wiggle room, but there is
    wiggle room with electricity.
        So we did work with local, State, Federal programs, brought
    people in, ask for recommendations on what we could do to
    improve our facilities, and we implemented all of those,
    whether it be energy efficient lighting or upgrading our HVAC
    and machinery auxiliaries. So in doing so, however, we kept
    coming against the fact that no matter what we did, that
    electricity was always going to be a high aspect to our
    production costs that we provide on a piece part price.
        So we went and we actually researched numerous times with
    ReVision Energy and looked at the possibility of what can we do
    to offset those costs, and it was just never affordable for us.
    It just was never going to be feasible. We don't sit on this
    huge pile of cash. You know, I would love to--I would love to
    sit on a huge pile of cash. We don't.
        And when we do have any type of wiggle room, we usually
    invest in our buildings, our machines, and our employees. So
    every time we would do the analysis, we just would never make
    that break-even point, if we had the cash flow, in order to
    make it happen.
        In 2022, around August, we--that all changed when our
    electricity provider notified us that our electric rates were
    going to be increasing 52 percent. And like I said, so our
    three components, that third prong of electricity that was just
    going to cripple us. We couldn't pass those costs on to our
    customer. And so, we were really facing, how do we do this? How
    do we--you know, we are going to go out of business.
        And that wasn't an option for us because it wasn't just our
    families that we, you know, are worried about at night. I stay
    up at night worrying about my employees' families and their
    lives. So I reached out to our local economic council, asked
    them what we could do, and they got us in touch with USDA and
    Tracy.
        And we learned through Tracy for about, I don't even know
    how many hours he was on the phone with us, he was wonderful,
    about the REAP grant and the funding that was possible for us.
    And so, with that, we began the work. We applied for the grant.
    And the old adage that it takes a village is really true.
        As a small business, all the people in this room right now
    are here to support us and it is hard as a small business to
    ask for that help. You just kind of think, I am going to put my
    head down and I am going to make it work and it is going to
    happen.
        But when you are going up against a 52 percent increase in
    electricity, that wasn't a reality that we could face alone. So
    the Government programs and their support were integral to our
    success.
        So many people held our hands through the process, from the
    USDA to the CDFA, to our Economic Council. And as a result, in
    December 2022 we received the REAP grant and we immediately
    contacted ReVision Energy and said, let's go and began the
    process of constructing our system, which we do own our own
    building, so.
        The system consists currently, they just finished this past
    June, of 142 solar panels. We produce up to 100 kilowatts of
    power. It just went live this summer and one of our engineers
    is like totally geeking out on it. He has got the app, and he
    runs around showing how many machines do we have running at
    this moment, how much power are we making.
        And on days like, for example, the weekend, we don't run
    unless it is--unless there has been a climate change impact and
    we need to supply for the electric grid, ironically, then we
    are able to push energy back into our grid.
        So honestly, it is a good feeling being sustainable at this
    point. We all know there are climate change incidents happening
    constantly, even in the White Mountains, and to be able to be
    sustainable and be able--a steward to our environment for the
    future generations.
        The system allows us to minimize climate change and the
    risks on our operations from the electric grid, and most
    importantly, allows us to remain competitive and continue our
    operations and provide a domestic choice to businesses still--
    by still being a viable injection molder.
        And when the envelope shows up, it is a nice feeling
    because one just showed up last week and, you know, when we
    done the numbers, it would probably come up to a 42 percent
    increase of cost of electricity, and we can rest assured that
    thanks to the REAP grant and those solar panels on our roof,
    that that is not going to impact our ability to provide that
    high quality, low cost product.
        So in closing, I would just like to thank you again for
    holding this hearing today, for listening to Ambix's journey to
    achieving renewable energy at our property in Albany, New
    Hampshire.
        And it is just--Congress supporting us with these
    lifesaving programs. It is really--it has been--we wouldn't be
    sitting here today as Ambix Manufacturing without them. I mean,
    we save approximately $75,000 a year for electricity.
        [The prepared statement of Ms. Florio follows.]
        [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        The Chairman. Well, thank you very much, Melissa. And thank
    you to all of our panelists for your testimony. I know that
    everybody in the audience would really like to ask them a lot
    of questions, but sadly, under our hearing format, you are not
    allowed to do that. [Laughter.]
        The Chairman. I am the only one who gets to ask questions.
    We should have had people running around the audience asking
    you to write down any questions so I could do that. But we do
    have a number of questions. And Melissa, I want to start with
    you because how much--are you now producing all of the energy
    that it takes to run your operation?
        Ms. Florio. It is a depends answer. So if we are running
    all our machines and auxiliaries, we can--we are about 65
    percent that we are able to just run on the renewable energies.
    If we are only running, you know, half of them, we are--all of
    this is under that umbrella.
        And like I said, so one of our engineers does run around
    and he is like, it is a little cloudy out today, you know. But
    for the most part, it is seeming to be, like I said, you know,
    because we have only been live for about a month since that
    resource finally changed over the meter. But what we can tell,
    we are--it is going to be very beneficial to us to reduce our
    costs.
        The Chairman. That is great. So as a company that is
    actually not in the energy business, what would you say to
    other small businesses who are looking at their energy costs,
    who may not know a lot about how to save money on energy, and
    what do you think is the impediment and how would you suggest
    we encourage them to look at finding some ways to lower their
    costs?
        Ms. Florio. You know, honestly, it is getting them into
    events such as this, other small businesses, where the
    resources are around the room to explain what is available. You
    know, that is how we learned years ago even about, you know,
    the energy efficient analysis that that can be done on your
    plant.
        You know, so we, you guys--oh gosh, you age yourself, but
    maybe 12 years ago we had installed, you know, motion detector
    lights. So, you know, all that kind of stuff, those low lying
    fruits like I had said. So, you know, you could start there on
    those low things where you can implement them.
        But to look at something big, and if they don't have their
    own roofs, that is a problem. Or, you know, if they are leasing
    and someone will--is willing to do that. You know, knowing
    that--ReVision Energy, they are clean energy, the USDA is
    there, and they will take the time to explain the programs to
    you.
        It is just getting over the hurdle of the small business
    owner asking for help and knowing that, well then--like I was
    shocked, like there is help out there when we made that call,
    and it was a relief. It was a relief.
        The Chairman. Yes. Great. Thank you. So, Sam, can you
    follow up on that and talk about how you start helping a
    business get started in the process. So you hear from Ambix.
    What do you do to start the process?
        Mr. Evans-Brown. Yes. So because I am not the person who
    directly provides that assistance, I will encourage anyone who
    is curious to go talk to Gabe and Katherine because they can
    get you on the journey.
        But the long and short of it is we put you through an
    intake, that we have an intake form on our website that asks
    some very basic questions. And then, the first step is really
    to start gathering together your energy bills.
        Because larger businesses--and I am sure Ambix is a small
    business, but we are really talking about businesses that are
    even smaller, that are generally speaking, you know, often sole
    operators or just have a few staff. Those are the folks that
    often wind up in our circle.
        So it is--so it really is, we are just talking about
    getting a year's worth of your electric bills together so we
    can get a sense of how much can be saved and that is where the
    journey really starts. Depending on the type of project that
    they are pursuing, often the next step is to get an energy
    audit done and there are--CDFA does have funding that can cover
    75 percent of that cost.
        And so, connecting them with those programs and sort of
    holding their hand to get that accomplished. Then you get your
    scope of work that says here is, you know, here is your target
    list of the lowest hanging fruit and let's go find, you know,
    match make with the various funding streams that are available
    and determine the best path forward for you.
        And that actually is, I think, the thing that we are--that
    we pride ourselves at Clean Energy New Hampshire in being able
    to do is we try to be funding stream agnostic. Obviously we are
    the technical assistance grant recipients at Clean Energy New
    Hampshire, and so any time that we are spending helping a
    business with REAP is as time well spent for us.
        But that said, if REAP is not going to be a good fit for
    the project that the business is looking for, we try to hand
    them off to whoever the right service provider is, and then if
    needed, give a little pokes and kicks along the way to make
    sure that that project keeps on the track. So it is a lot of
    one on one and it is a lot of handholding.
        The Chairman. And Dan, just to follow up as somebody who is
    actually there, comes in probably after Sam and Clean Energy
    have done that evaluation of what can be done. How do you help
    those small businesses?
        Mr. Weeks. Thank you, Senator. There are a lot of small
    businesses out there, as we have heard. And so very often we
    will be the first call that a business makes. And we have
    learned over the years that to the extent we can replicate some
    of the great technical assistance that organizations like Clean
    Energy New Hampshire and the agencies provide, that helps our
    customers, it helps us make projects happen.
        So at this point, I am leading our commercial business
    unit. I get to work with a team of now very experienced
    commercial designers, consultants who are well versed in the
    different technologies. Obviously I have focused on solar, but
    there is energy storage and EV charging and thermal solutions
    for heating and cooling.
        So that consultant will do that site visit, often just
    taking that initial query. We will walk through the facility.
    We will inspect the roof. We will check the structural, check
    the roof age, or maybe there is adjacent land.
        We will get into the electric panel, determine the
    capacity. We will review the electric bills, and we will be
    able to provide then a roadmap of options, solar being the most
    common, but oftentimes businesses are looking for a broader
    electrification set of solutions and then proceed step by step.
        We are always thrilled when we can work with Clean Energy
    New Hampshire and the USDA. Megan on my team I know is in very
    common touch with your office there at USDA. And so, we have
    also been honored to complete REAP applications for dozens of
    projects, maybe up to 100 at this point over the years.
        But it is--as Sam said, it is sitting down, understanding
    their needs, trying to--because they are busy running the
    business. They are expert in that. If we can lessen the load a
    bit and be expert in the energy part of their challenge, that
    makes their life easier, and it helps us because we are a
    construction company at the end of the day, actually build
    projects.
        The Chairman. So is the biggest impediment knowing what is
    out there, having the capital to invest to go forward, the
    paperwork? What--each of you, what do you think is the biggest
    challenge and how could we move the ball?
        Ms. Florio. All of the above. It would be knowing it was
    out there. And then once we did--I mean, we are a small
    business. We do have our accountants that we have to provide
    all that information, so we had it all in hand, but we didn't
    know what was needed until we did speak to USDA and Tracy.
        And then with ReVision Energy, they walked us through
    everything. You know, they handheld us through the whole
    process of, give us your electric bills. And, you know, and so
    we would pdf them off to them. Give us your--okay, here you go.
        Give us your--and so, if we didn't have that, we would have
    gave up because there would have been a machine down, there
    would have been something, and we just would have--we would
    have--we just would have gave up.
        You know, just because the paperwork is definitely an
    impediment. Like understanding the process is definitely an
    impediment. And I consider myself an intelligent person but--I
    have some common sense to figure things out, but yeah, I would
    definitely say.
        The Chairman. So Sarah, what can we do to make that easier?
        Ms. Waring. Yes. Thank you, Senator. I would add that not
    only is the capacity of the small business--often it is not
    their expertise to walk through this sector. This is an entire
    sector, right, with technologies that are underused or
    underutilized, and we have experts in the sector in an industry
    that, as Dan has said, is trying to build its own workforce,
    right.
        And is trying to build behind folks like them the workforce
    that will come in and be able to do this on behalf of all of us
    so that it is not just, as Sam sometimes says, it is not just
    affordable, it is automatic, right.
        So capacity for small businesses is one challenge. Capacity
    within an agency is another challenge. I want to thank you and
    the delegation from Vermont and New Hampshire for recognizing
    that staffing at Federal agencies is one of those issues that
    helps us to loosen the pipeline and get more projects over
    those final hurdles of paperwork and environmental processing
    and so on.
        But I also want to share that time is sometimes an issue.
    We have always had a delay between an application and the start
    of construction, and that time period, particularly as you have
    heard the number, the raw numbers of increases of applications,
    that time delay sometimes puts businesses out an entire season
    or a half a year from where they expected to start recouping
    those energy costs and savings.
        There are a few other challenges that I think are important
    to mention for the particular program that we run, and I am
    really pleased that our other Federal agencies are here today
    and can speak to businesses about their programs.
        Our Rural Energy for America Program does not serve
    nonprofits because it is a business, for profit business
    specific program. Similarly, leasehold improvements, as Dan
    mentioned. When a small business does not own its own asset
    that we can build on, we have to really just think about their
    equipment that we can help with, right.
        We have to really narrow that window for how we can support
    those small businesses that are leasing. And then the other
    challenge with many Federal programs is that for small
    businesses that do not have cash flow, these are reimbursement
    based grants.
        So the work needs to be done upfront, and the Federal cash
    comes in later. And that is because we are stewarding taxpayer
    dollars to make sure that the project is completed as planned
    and that all of the metrics are met. That being said, it is
    often difficult for our smallest businesses to front the cash,
    and that's a challenge.
        The Chairman. And--do you want to add to that, Dan?
        Mr. Weeks. Just briefly, thank you. I did want to
    underscore the financing side of this. We are very concerned
    that REAP grants are now timed out where in the last couple of
    weeks of applications that I know your team will be very busily
    processing.
        But that has been a game changer for especially small farms
    and really small rural businesses that while the tax credit is
    great, you can carry it back three years thanks to IRA and
    forward up to 20, a lot of businesses just don't have the
    profitability and therefore the tax liability to be able to
    take the tax credit or only very slowly over time and value of
    money, that is obviously diluted, therefore.
        So having reaped grants has truly been a game changer,
    especially at that elevated 50 percent level. And we very much
    hope there is a way to bring--to continue that program after
    September. We are also eagerly awaiting the results of debt
    vehicles, reduced interest rates, etcetera under the Greenhouse
    Gas Reduction Fund. Right now, the cost of capital, Wall
    Street--prime rate is 7.5 percent. That is difficult to make
    projects----
        The Chairman. We are waiting for that, too. [Laughter.]
        Mr. Weeks. So hopefully those interest rates are also
    coming down as I think they are. But with these last couple of
    years, these historically high rates, it has been difficult to
    finance, and getting access to cheaper capital can make all the
    difference.
        The Chairman. So I know that the SBA just announced a
    program to try and focus more on financing for businesses that
    are interested in doing energy savings or green energy
    projects. Has that--have you talked to anybody who is aware
    that that has happened? And is there more that needs to be done
    to let people know about that initiative? Yeah, Sam.
        Mr. Evans-Brown. Well, I mean, I would simply ask, you
    know, if you are at the owner of an ice cream shop in
    Bethlehem, you know, how do you learn about a notice of Federal
    funding opportunity, right.
        So it is--I think the answer to that is yes. And really, it
    comes down to, in my opinion, just needing more boots on the
    ground that are aware of and understand the funding landscape
    and that doesn't just have to be, you know, technical
    assistance providing nonprofits like mine. I think what you
    have heard is that--and really how I envision that this will
    all work in the future is that it will actually be the
    businesses like ReVision and, you know, construction companies
    that understand this landscape and are doing that handholding.
        So I think ReVision really is a model for how this--how the
    energy transition is going to happen. That they will become the
    easy button for their clients. But really what that requires,
    it requires all the service providers to want to get out of bed
    and do things differently than they were doing the day before
    and really lean into these new technologies.
        The Chairman. And what is your experience in the private
    sector in terms of financing? Have you--I know that it has been
    challenging to get community banks and other private sector
    financing to take a look at the benefits that may come with
    energy savings projects. I don't know, Sarah, you want to
    respond to that?
        Ms. Waring. Yes. Senator, thank you for that question. I
    mentioned in my testimony that there are a number of other
    programs that Rural Development in particular has that can
    provide a part of that capital stack.
        One of the ones that I am most excited about is one that I
    hope that very soon New Hampshire will have a pot of capital to
    be able to play with. It is called the Rural Energy Savings
    Program.
        The Rural Energy Savings Program is under our Rural
    Utilities Service, and it is a re-lending program where we lend
    capital to a utility, a green bank, or an eligible applicant
    through our de-lending programs, and they then re-lend that
    capital into the community at 5 percent or below.
        So always below market rate. It could be matched then with
    our REAP grants. So what could happen is a small business could
    get some of that low interest capital to support those startup
    costs and those initial costs--could get the grant
    reimbursement for 50 percent of their project. That capital
    investment and that injection into our lending community is
    something that can then revolve and revolve and revolve and
    stay here.
        And so, what I am really excited about is that there are
    other utility programs, there are other lending programs that
    allow the Federal money not just to be invested once, but to be
    invested again and again through a lender intermediary.
        We are hopeful that we will be able to see some of that
    coming to New Hampshire in the coming months. And I am really
    proud of the fact that in addition to the REAP program, the
    RESP program and some of the others, we were able to just
    announce around $7 billion in two of the electric programs
    nationwide.
        And those are the largest investment in electrification
    since President Roosevelt, right--in rural electrification. So
    the agency is really trying to move that Inflation Reduction
    Act funding on the front end of the time period that we have as
    much as possible.
        The Chairman. That is great. Let me just--I know Dan wants
    to weigh in here, but let me also point out that SBDC, in
    addition to the Community Development Finance Authority, are
    here. I don't know if--I thought somebody from SBA was--is here
    too. Yes, thank you. I was looking right at you.
        So they also can talk about some of these new financing
    mechanisms that SBA is looking at to try and help small
    businesses. Dan, you wanted to weigh in.
        Mr. Weeks. Thank you, Senator. Just one final comment on
    the financing side. These federal, lower cost financing options
    can be game changing, and they can be very difficult to
    navigate.
        The Chairman. Yes.
        Mr. Weeks. And we have--unfortunately, there is sometimes a
    bit of a collective groan that goes across our team when we
    have an opportunity to help a client obtain Federal funds. The
    compliance requirements, especially around procurement--which
    is getting better. Starting in early 2025, we will be meeting
    domestic content requirements for many if not all of our solar
    projects, which unlocks an additional 10 percent tax credit,
    which is terrific.
        The Chairman. Yes. Explain that so that everybody knows.
        Mr. Weeks. Yes. Under the Inflation Reduction Act, it
    returned the standard ITC investment tax credit to 30 percent
    instead of 10 percent or 0 for residential, and it also created
    bonus tax credit opportunities, a 10 percent additional tax
    credit if domestic content starts at 45 percent.
        The Chairman. And domestic content means?
        Mr. Weeks. Sorry, domestically manufactured. All of the
    manufactured goods, the solar panels, inverters, etcetera, need
    to be domestically manufactured. The full supply chain is
    coming onshore, which is tremendous, and all of the raw
    materials, the steel for racking, etcetera, need to be 100
    percent domestic.
        So we will start meeting that next year and that will ease
    some of the challenges. But I am thinking of a project down in
    Keene. We have been waiting a year to get a waiver to unlock
    Federal funds that are crucial to allow that project to go
    forward and we just can't get the status of that waiver.
        The Chairman. And you need the waiver because there is not
    enough domestic content?
        Mr. Weeks. Because today's components aren't quite at----
        The Chairman. Yes.
        Mr. Weeks. And there are at least three different domestic
    procurement thresholds. This is the Buy America Act.
        The Chairman. Right. Right.
        Mr. Weeks. Buy America, Build America, BABA. So navigating
    some of this has been a real pain point and it has
    unfortunately discouraged some projects from going forward. I
    think it will get better, but I would be remiss if I didn't say
    from an implementation standpoint, any time we can simplify,
    standardize, it will result in projects getting built.
        The Chairman. Yes. No, I appreciate that and the challenge.
    I can remember the debate that we had over the whole domestic
    content, the Buy America provisions, and everybody wants those
    jobs here in the United States.
        But sometimes that creates other impediments that business
    has to deal with. And so, the waiver provision was designed to
    try and help address that. But as you point, it doesn't always
    work, so.
        Mr. Weeks. Thank you.
        The Chairman. Let me, I want to go back to the Circuit
    Rider issue, Sam, that you talked about, because as I think you
    are aware, one of the things we tried to do was to make the
    Circuit Riders a national initiative, because it has been so
    successful in New Hampshire, and it provides such assistance.
        And it is something we have heard as we have traveled
    around the State from small businesses and from communities,
    actually. And so, we had language that we had hoped to get into
    the farm bill, which has been stalled in Congress, but our
    language didn't actually get in. But talk a little bit about
    what you think the ability to have that be more widespread
    would do for businesses and for communities across the country.
        Mr. Evans-Brown. Yes. I love getting to talk about the
    Circuit Rider program, so happy to happy to take some time to
    do so.
        We at Clean Energy New Hampshire have focused on municipal
    projects because we think that community projects have the
    potential to be transformative beyond just the energy savings
    that accrue to the taxpayers in that community, but also
    because they are so high profile.
        And generally speaking, so first of all, not only when you
    put solar on the roof of a library or weatherize a fire
    department, not only is there is that--a bigger facility that
    likely is going to get more bang for the buck than going after,
    you know, a residential project.
        But it is a public investment that in New Hampshire in
    particular you then go to town meeting and there is a warrant
    article that is going to have a fiscal note and every voter in
    that town is going to be confronted with the beneficial
    economics of the clean energy transition when they make that
    vote.
        And what we have seen is that these projects pass,
    typically pass by overwhelming margins in their community. And
    then you have got solar on the roof of your town hall and there
    is very--there is now a robust academic literature on how the
    seeing that in your community every time you drive by has the
    effect of those individuals in the community then wanting to
    consider that--making that choice for their own residence.
        So, we think that municipal projects are transformative,
    which is why we have focused on the municipal space to begin.
    But, you know, going back to my initial comment, what I have
    experienced in my own personal life is that there is--this is
    needed at absolutely every level.
        And I am someone who I have spent my entire adult life
    studying these issues and wanting to pursue sustainability in
    my own life. And I will tell you that even as someone who is,
    you know, certifiably obsessed with this stuff, it is not easy
    to do.
        I remember getting in an argument with an electrician who
    was telling me I was installing the wrong plug standard for my
    electric car charger and having to Google, sitting there in the
    garage to show him that, yes, I want an Ima 1450, not the 630
    as--you know, as I ordered.
        So, and just imagine if you are a regular person, an
    electrician tells you are installing the wrong plug, they are
    just going to say, okay. So, I think the, the, the world I am
    hoping we get to is one where you don't have to have that
    argument because we truly are driving towards a transformed
    market where people don't have to figure this out. We can
    figure it out for them.
        The Chairman. Yes. And I know that we are getting close to
    the deadline that we gave to people for when we would stop the
    official testifying, testimony, and open to the resource fair.
    But I wanted to go back, Dan, to your testimony because you
    talked about three key challenges.
        Net metering, which has been a challenge since back when I
    was in the State Senate, which has been in the 90s, so a long
    time ago. This is a challenge that the Legislature and I, and I
    know we have some Legislators in the room, so thank you for
    joining us. But this is a challenge that the Legislature has
    been dealing with session after session.
        And I appreciate, I think we have representation from some
    of the utilities in New Hampshire here, some of whom have been
    more supportive of net metering, expanding net metering than
    others.
        But I just wanted to make sure that folks understand that
    this is an issue that as we look at how we expand the
    localization of energy, it is going to be more and more
    important. And to the extent that we haven't addressed it in
    ways that encourage our uses of a variety of energy sources, it
    gives us a disadvantage.
        And several of you have talked about how we compare to some
    of the other New England States on some of these issues. And
    so, I think it is important to point out that some of these
    challenges, we have got to--all of these challenges we have to
    work on together, but that is one that is really a threshold
    issue as we think about how to expand the ability of small
    business to increase their use of energy saving technologies.
    So, I don't know if you want to add to that.
        Mr. Weeks. Thank you so much for lifting that up, Senator.
    I joined the ConVal solar car team in the 90s. It has been a
    passion of mine for a while as well. And as I track New
    Hampshire's progress, I have to say that our net metering
    policy is the single biggest factor that explains why in New
    Hampshire today, a little over 1 percent of our electricity
    comes from the sun.
        South of the border, it is 24 percent. Maine used to be the
    laggard at half of 1 percent five years ago. They are now at 11
    percent. It is State policy that are determining that and that
    are causing us to unfortunately forego the thousands of good
    paying jobs, the billions of dollars in private investment
    supported by Federal tax credits that New Hampshire can realize
    if we can get this right, as well as some of the related
    challenges around, you know, permitting and interconnection.
        Just I think it was on Tuesday this week got the
    frustrating news that one of our projects that is actually
    going to support, intended to support low income communities
    not too far from here was blocked on the permitting front
    because there were some local objections to how it looked.
        And we are increasingly seeing that as solar farm is
    treated as stringently, sometimes even more than a shopping
    mall in terms of deemed 100 percent impervious surface,
    required to go through a level of local and State and sometimes
    Federal permitting review that just arguably isn't appropriate
    to that type, mindful of the actual environmental impact and
    benefits.
        So we are still at the very beginning of the energy
    transition in New Hampshire, and working is a company that
    spans other States, it is painfully apparent just how much of
    our own investment in new jobs are going across State lines. I
    really want to build our team here more and more.
        So, the final comment I would make is I do think while net
    metering is a State policy issue, I do think there is a
    significant positive role the Federal Government could play.
        The Chairman. Good. Talk about that a little more.
    [Laughter.]
        Mr. Weeks. Thank you. We are already seeing billions of
    dollars on the related issue of interconnection flow into
    making substation upgrades, it is happening in Massachusetts
    and other States, that will enable that State to go from 24
    percent to its eventual goals of 100 percent, of which a
    significant part will be solar. Not all, but a significant
    part.
        Right now in New Hampshire, as I mentioned briefly,
    projects can wait multiple years to commence studies, which
    then cost $50,000 to $75,000 just to know if it will cost you a
    quarter of a million, or a million or more dollars to
    interconnect.
        The Federal Government can significantly reduce those costs
    to help transition our grid from a 20th, even 19th century
    electric grid, to a 21st century grid that is designed and
    capable of integrating these distributed resources. That would
    be a game changer.
        And likewise, I think perhaps, you know, incentivizing
    conditioning Federal funds on State streamlining permitting
    processes and perhaps even interconnection procedures. We see
    other places where the cost of solar is a bulk a watt.
        Australia is a great example. In the U.S., it is three
    bucks a watt. It is small scale and most of that is soft costs.
    We have got a lot of room to improve there.
        The Chairman. We do. Clearly, as you all point out, we have
    a lot to do in order to take advantage of the opportunities
    that exist, and from paperwork to policies, and making sure
    that people understand what is out there to help them.
        But I very much appreciate your willingness to be here
    today, your contribution to this conversation, and it will go
    on because there is clearly a lot that we have to do. And I
    want to officially point out that the record will remain open
    for two weeks for additional questions and statements from the
    committee.
        And I want to--I guess I have to--Sean, I need to close
    this out, do I, before we do the resource fair? Okay. So thank
    you all very much for joining us. I will now officially declare
    this hearing closed.
        So but before you go, one of the exciting things about this
    morning is that we have so many staff from so many agencies,
    both federal, State, and nonprofit who are here to be able to
    provide some assistance. And we did a similar kind of hearing
    early--back in the spring on trade, and we had a resource fair
    at the end of that.
        And one of the things that struck me the most, I wasn't
    able to stay for the resource discussion, but was how much of
    it was people in the different organizations talking to each
    other. Because it is not something that you all get to do on a
    regular basis sometimes. And so, I think that is a real
    benefit, to have everybody in the same room to know who the
    players are, and to be able to access the information from
    them.
        So let me really share with all of you how much I
    appreciate your taking time this morning to be here. The--it is
    one of the advantages that we have in New Hampshire, that we do
    have the ability to work closely together. And let me just
    recognize a number of the organizations who are here. We have,
    along with Sarah, we have USDA's Rural Development staff. The
    EPA is here to talk about tools like Energy Star for small
    businesses.
        Clean Energy New Hampshire with Sam is here. We have the
    Small Business Administration and the SBDCs who are here. They
    assist not just on energy issues, but a whole range of small
    business issues. We have the Department of Energy's Onsite
    Energy Technical Assistance Partnership here.
        And the IRS is here, which as I said to them when I came
    in, I really appreciate your being here because it is one of
    the top constituent concerns, calls we get in our office.
        We have the Community Development Finance Authority here,
    as we talked about earlier. And I think you just--you told me
    we have two other people who signed in at the last minute. Yes,
    DES and New Hampshire Saves.
        So, thank you so much to all of our resource partners for
    being here today, for sharing with the people in the audience.
    And anything that we can do to be helpful in getting the word
    out, I hope you will let us know. And as I introduced all of my
    staff who are in the room, let them know we will do everything
    we can to get the word out.
        So, again, thank you all so much for being here.
        [Applause.]
        [Whereupon, at 11:54 a.m., the hearing was adjourned.]
        [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

                             [all]