    [Senate Hearing 118-307]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]

                                                            S. Hrg. 118-307

                    NOMINATIONS OF HON. VAL BUTLER DEMINGS,
                             HON. WILLIAM ZOLLARS,
                    HON. GORDON HARTOGENSIS, JAMES G. LAKE,
                            AND NICHOLAS G. MIRANDA

    =======================================================================

                                    HEARING

                                   before the

                                  COMMITTEE ON
                   HOMELAND SECURITY AND GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS
                              UNITED STATES SENATE

                        ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                                 SECOND SESSION

                                   __________

                    NOMINATIONS OF HON. VAL BUTLER DEMINGS,
          HON. WILLIAM ZOLLARS, AND THE HON. GORDON HARTOGENSIS TO BE
           GOVERNORS, UNITED STATES POSTAL SERVICE, AND JAMES G. LAKE
                AND NICHOLAS G. MIRANDA TO BE ASSOCIATE JUDGES,
                   SUPERIOR COURT OF THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA

                                   __________

                               NOVEMBER 14, 2024

            Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov

                           Printed for the use of the
            Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs

            GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT

                               _______

    	             U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
    	 57-572          WASHINGTON : 2025

            COMMITTEE ON HOMELAND SECURITY AND GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS

                       GARY C. PETERS, Michigan, Chairman
    THOMAS R. CARPER, Delaware           RAND PAUL, Kentucky
    MAGGIE HASSAN, New Hampshire         RON JOHNSON, Wisconsin
    KYRSTEN SINEMA, Arizona              JAMES LANKFORD, Oklahoma
    JACKY ROSEN, Nevada                  MITT ROMNEY, Utah
    JON OSSOFF, Georgia                  RICK SCOTT, Florida
    RICHARD BLUMENTHAL, Connecticut      JOSH HAWLEY, Missouri
    LAPHONZA BUTLER, California          ROGER MARSHALL, Kansas

                       David M. Weinberg, Staff Director
                      Claudine J. Brenner, Senior Counsel
              Annika Christensen, Senior Professional Staff Member
                  Devin M. Parsons, Professional Staff Member
               William E. Henderson III, Minority Staff Director
                  Christina N. Salazar, Minority Chief Counsel
                      Andrew J. Hopkins, Minority Counsel
                         Laura W. Kilbride, Chief Clerk
                       Ashley A. Gonzalez, Hearing Clerk

                                C O N T E N T S

                                     ------
    Opening statements:
                                                                       Page
        Senator Peters...............................................     1
        Senator Hassan...............................................    13
        Senator Rosen................................................    16
        Senator Butler...............................................    18
        Senator Hawley...............................................    21
        Senator Ossoff...............................................    25
    Prepared statements:
        Senator Peters...............................................    29

                                   WITNESSES
                          Thursday, November 14, 2024

    Honorable Val Butler Demings, to be a Governor, United States
      Postal Service
        Testimony....................................................     3
        Prepared statement...........................................    31
        Biographical and professional information....................    34
        Letter from U.S. Office of Government Ethics.................    55
        Responses to pre-hearing questions...........................    60
        Responses to post-hearing questions..........................    77
    Honorable William Zollars, to be a Governor, United States Postal
      Service
        Testimony....................................................     4
        Prepared statement...........................................    78
        Biographical and professional information....................    80
        Letter from U.S. Office of Government Ethics.................    94
        Responses to pre-hearing questions...........................    99
        Responses to post-hearing questions..........................   112
    Honorable Gordon Hartogensis, to be a Governor, United States
      Postal Service
        Testimony....................................................     6
        Prepared statement...........................................   114
        Biographical and professional information....................   116
        Letter from U.S. Office of Government Ethics.................   134
        Responses to pre-hearing questions...........................   139
        Responses to post-hearing questions..........................   154
    James G. Lake, to be an Associate Judge, Superior Court of the
      District of Columbia
        Testimony....................................................     8
        Prepared statement...........................................   156
        Biographical and professional information....................   158
    Nicholas G. Miranda, to be an Associate Judge Superior Court of
      the District of Columbia
        Testimony....................................................     9
        Prepared statement...........................................   181
        Biographical and professional information....................   182

                                    APPENDIX

    Senator Hawley's chart on yellow zones...........................   202
    Senator Hawley's pictures........................................   203
    Missouri Farm Bureau Federation Letter...........................   205

                                 NOMINATIONS OF

                            HON. VAL BUTLER DEMINGS,

                             HON. WILLIAM ZOLLARS,

                            HON. GORDON HARTOGENSIS,

                     JAMES G. LAKE, AND NICHOLAS G. MIRANDA

                                  ----------

                          THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 14, 2024

                                         U.S. Senate,
                               Committee on Homeland Security
                                      and Governmental Affairs,
                                                        Washington, DC.
        The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 11:02 a.m., in
    room SD-342, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Gary Peters,
    Chair of the Committee, presiding.
        Present: Senators Peters [presiding], Carper, Hassan,
    Rosen, Blumenthal, Ossoff, Butler, Lankford, Scott, and Hawley.

                 OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR PETERS\1\

        Chairman Peters. The Committee will come to order. Today,
    we are considering the nominations of Val Butler Demings,
    William Zollars, and Gordon Hartogensis to be the Governors of
    the United States Postal Service (USPS). James Lake and
    Nicholas Miranda to be associate judges on the DC Superior
    Court. Welcome to each of the nominees, and to your friends,
    and family members who are joining us here today. And
    certainly, congratulations on your nominations, and thank you
    for your willingness to serve, in what are all very important
    roles.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
        \1\ The prepared statement of Senator Peters appears in the
    Appendix on page 29.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
        The United States Postal Service is an essential public
    service that connects communities all across our Nation. The
    Postal Service Board of Governors (BOG) plays a critical role
    in providing oversight and guidance to the Postal Service,
    ensuring that it effectively serves all Americans. For years,
    the Postal Service has faced significant financial and
    operational challenges. The historic, bipartisan Postal Service
    Reform Act (PSRA) passed in 2022 has been an important step put
    forward putting the Postal Service on a sustainable path.
        However, more work needs to be done. The Board of Governors
    will be integral as the Postal Service continues to consider
    operational changes, which could have significant impacts on
    service and on Postal Service cost. The board must ensure that
    the Postal Service remains, first and foremost, a public
    service that provides timely and reliable mail delivery to
    every household in the Nation. The Board of Governors must
    provide sound strategic insight and oversight of management to
    ensure the Postal Service continues to fulfill its public
    service mandate.
        The board is a bipartisan body whose members bring diverse
    experience and management expertise, but who must all share a
    strong commitment to oversight and accountability. The Postal
    Service Board of Governors also works closely with Congress to
    provide transparency and ensure the Postal Service delivers for
    the American people each and every day. Congresswoman Demings,
    Mr. Zollars, and Mr. Hartogensis, I look forward to hearing
    from you here today.
        The DC Superior Court functions as the State-level trial
    court here in the nation's capital. The court handles some of
    the highest case volumes in the country and has been strained
    further by extended vacancies on the bench. Every day, judges
    of the Superior Court decide matters that impact the freedom,
    the livelihoods, and the safety of individuals and families all
    across the District of Columbia.
        Currently, 9 of the 62 seats on the court are vacant,
    delaying cases, and placing serious burdens on current judges.
    This Committee has advanced 12 Superior Court nominees as
    Congress, but most, unfortunately, are still waiting to be
    confirmed by the full Senate. I am pleased that we have two
    very well qualified nominees to the Superior Court here today,
    Mr. Lake and Mr. Miranda. Thank you both for your service to
    the people of the District of Columbia, as well as your
    willingness to continue to serve in this role. I look forward
    to hearing from both of you here today.
        Now, it's the practice of the Homeland Security and
    Governmental Affairs Committee (HSGAC) to swear in witnesses.
    If each of you would please stand and raise your right hand. Do
    you swear the testimony you will give before this Committee
    will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,
    so help you, God?
        Ms. Demings. I do.
        Ms. Zollars. I do.
        Mr. Hartogensis. I do.
        Mr. Lake. I do.
        Mr. Miranda. I do.
        Chairman Peters. Thank you. You may be seated. Our first
    nominee is Val Butler Demings. Congresswoman Demings is a
    lifelong public servant. She began her career as a social
    worker and then went on to serve at every level in the Orlando
    Police Department before becoming Orlando's first female chief
    of police. In this role, she oversaw a 40 percent decrease in
    violent crime over four years, demonstrating her ability to
    deliver critical results for the people of Florida.
        In 2016, Congresswoman Demings was elected to represent
    Florida's 10th District, and during her three terms in the
    House of Representatives, she served on the Committees on
    Homeland Security, Judiciary, Intelligence, and Oversight and
    Government Reform. She worked across the aisle to reduce
    household cost, grow the economy, and conduct critical
    oversight of the Federal Government. Congresswoman Demings,
    it's great to have you here. You may proceed with your opening
    comments.

       TESTIMONY OF THE HONORABLE VAL BUTLER DEMINGS,\1\ TO BE A
                 GOVERNOR, UNITED STATES POSTAL SERVICE

        Ms. Demings. Chair Peters, Ranking Member Paul, in his
    absence, and distinguished Members of the Committee, good
    morning, and thank you for your consideration of my nomination
    to serve on the board of Governors of the United States Postal
    Service. I also want to thank President Biden for this
    nomination, and if confirmed, I look forward to the opportunity
    to continue serving the American people in this important role.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
        \1\ The prepared statement of Ms. Demings appears in the Appendix
    on page 31.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
        I am grateful for the support of my husband of 36 years,
    Jerry Demings, who currently serves as the Mayor of Orange
    County, Florida. Unfortunately, he could not join us today, but
    Jerry and I both served in law enforcement and have had the
    honor of leading the two largest law enforcement agencies in
    the central Florida region. I truly feel blessed to have a
    spouse who has dedicated his life to serving others. We have
    two sons who are certified firefighters and a third son who
    works in the private sector.
        I was raised in a rural part of Jacksonville, Florida. I
    grew up on a dirt road and a house that people used to say was
    way back in the woods. My paternal grandmother lived next door
    to us in a house my father built for her by hand. My
    grandmother was born in 1903. She could not neither read nor
    write, but she had a major lifeline that connected her to her
    sisters in Darlington, South Carolina, the United States Postal
    Service.
        She relied on the ``mailman'', as she effectively called
    him, for her Social Security check, news from back home, and
    other goods that she needed to live on. My grandmother would
    wait anxiously for the mail to be delivered. Regardless of who
    she was or the challenges of where she lived, the mailman never
    failed to deliver. When the demands of the route permitted, he
    would take the time to check on my grandmother and have
    meaningful conversations with her, letting her know that she
    mattered to him.
        Those memories are precious. I decided a long time ago to
    dedicate my life to public service. I worked for the State of
    Florida with foster care children, joined the Orlando Police
    Department and worked my way up through the ranks to become the
    36th chief of police.
        I was appointed chief during the recession of 2008, and
    crime was at an all-time high. As a leader, it was important
    that we never lost sight of our mission to keep Orlando a safe
    city by reducing crime and maintaining livable neighborhoods.
    The only way we could meet the mission was through extensive
    community engagement with stakeholders, including the public,
    city officials, business owners, the faith community, and
    others.
        In 2007, I was elected to the U.S. House of
    Representatives. Two of my classmates serve on this Committee.
    During my time in the House, I served on the committees of
    Oversight and Government Accountability, Homeland Security,
    Judiciary, and Intelligence.
        I chaired the Subcommittee on Emergency Preparedness,
    Response, and Recovery. It was an honor to serve my nation in
    such a special way and work with the colleagues on both sides
    of the aisle to improve the lives of the people we served. I
    learned a lot during my time with the State as a police chief
    and as a Member of Congress, and I am committed to bringing my
    diversity of experience and diversity of ideas to the board of
    Governors.
        The Postal Service helps bind our nation together. Even
    today, the American people depend on the United States Postal
    Service, just as my grandmother did. Every day, the American
    postal customers are waiting for prescription drugs, payments,
    special greetings, and packages. Importantly, the USPS always
    delivers. Its mission is like none other. It is one of the
    oldest and most trusted institutions in our Nation, delivering
    dependable and affordable service to every part of our country.
        I know from my time in Congress that the Postal Service has
    ongoing challenges and is in the midst of a 10-year
    reorganization plan. If confirmed, I will commit to working
    with all members of the board to ensure that we are listening
    to the concerns of all postal stakeholders, and that our voices
    are reflected in our choices.
        Mr. Chair, I want to thank you again for this opportunity,
    and the other distinguished Members of the Committee, to appear
    before you today. I look forward to your questions.
        Chairman Peters. Thank you.
        Our second nominee is William Zollars. Mr. Zollars recently
    completed his first term as a Governor on the U.S. Postal
    Service board of Governors. Prior to this role, he began his
    career at Eastman Kodak, where he worked on finance, strategic
    planning, logistics, and general management.
        He went on to become the Chief Executive Officers (CEO) of
    the Yellow Corporation, an American transportation holding
    company, headquartered in Kansas, leading the company for 12
    years. Mr. Zollars has served on the boards of many public
    companies, including Cigna and Prologis, and thus has
    experience relevant to this position.
        Mr. Zollars welcome to the Committee. You may proceed with
    your opening remarks.

        TESTIMONY OF THE HONORABLE WILLIAM ZOLLARS,\1\ TO BE A
                 GOVERNOR, UNITED STATES POSTAL SERVICE

        Mr. Zollars. Thank you. Good morning, Chair Peters, Ranking
    Member Paul, in your absence, and the other Committee Members.
    I am Bill Zollars, and I would like to thank the President for
    the honor of being renominated, and thank the Senate for your
    consideration of my reappointment to the Board of Governors of
    the U.S. Postal Service after completing my first 3-year term
    on the Board of Governors at the end of 2023.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
        \1\ The prepared statement of Mr. Zollars appears in the Appendix
    on page 78.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
        There are two reasons why I am seeking a second term.
    First, the Postal Service is vitally important to the country,
    and there's more work to do. Second, I think I can continue to
    help based on my background in governance and logistics
    experience. The Founders, obviously, thought the Postal Service
    was important enough to include in the Constitution, and the
    fact that it has remained an integral component of American
    life throughout the history is confirmation of their foresight.
        As a resident of Kansas, I can verify the added importance
    of this vital service to rural America, where the Postal
    Service is a reliable, dependable, and trusted symbol of
    government promises kept. It is for these important reasons
    that I am committed to help solidify the long-term future of
    this important part of America.
        During my years in private industry, I have led large
    organizations in three Fortune 500 companies, and served on the
    board of directors of four separate Fortune 500 companies in
    the healthcare, technology, real estate, and transportation
    sectors. Sometimes, we lose track of the scale of the Postal
    Service, but interestingly, if the Postal Service were a public
    company, it would rank 45th on the Fortune 500 list, alongside
    companies like Pepsi and FedEx with revenue of nearly $100
    billion. It's a big organization.
        My last corporate leadership position, as Chair Peters
    mentioned, which I held from 1999 to 2011, was as the CEO and
    was relevant to the Postal Service since it was a nationwide
    unionized logistics network of over 50,000 associates. There,
    we were able to deliver four consecutive years of record
    revenue and profitability. In the process, we provided
    outstanding service to our hundreds of thousands of customers,
    whether they were in Manhattan, Kansas, or the island of
    Manhattan.
        In addition, we served every ZIP Code in the country. It's
    our own version of the Universal Service Obligation (USO). We
    delivered shipments to our customers on time, regardless of
    distance or density, and in the most efficient way possible. We
    were also able to offset a labor cost disadvantage with a
    knowledgeable and experienced workforce, enabled by an
    optimized network and effective technology, things that are an
    integral part of the Delivering for America (DFA) plan.
    Similarly, we were able to effectively deal with millions of
    dollars of unfunded liability in some of the multi-employer
    health and pension funds.
        I have also had the opportunity to experience Postal
    Service outside the United States. Five years in Europe, three
    in Canada, and a year in Japan, gave me a very different view
    of approaches to mail and package delivery.
        Finally, and very importantly, even though the Postal
    Service has complex and significant challenges ahead, like
    modernizing the logistics network, they also have a substantial
    competitive advantage, last mile, last density touch. No other
    competitor has that, and that is why our UPS, Federal Express
    (FedEx), and Amazon use the Postal Service on a frequent basis
    to complete their deliveries.
        If I am fortunate enough to be confirmed, I will work with
    Congress, the Postal Regulatory Commission (PRC), and the Board
    of Governors to oversee and guide management toward obtaining a
    sustainable future for this required and fundamentally
    important American asset, the United Postal Service.
        In my role, I will also continue to provide maximum
    possible transparency and responsiveness to all our
    constituents.
        Thank you, and I look forward to your questions.
        Chairman Peters. Thank you.
        Our third nominee is Gordon Hartogensis. Mr. Hartogensis
    recently completed a 5-year term as the Director of the Pension
    Benefit Guarantee Corporation (PBGC), where he worked to
    implement the Special Financial Assistance Program that has
    delivered pension benefits to hundreds of thousands of workers,
    retirees, and beneficiaries. Previously, he founded two
    companies, Petrolsoft Corporation, a supply chain and logistics
    company, and Auric, a customer relationship management software
    company.
        His experience in public service and as an entrepreneur
    qualify him to be a Governor of the Postal Service. Mr.
    Hartogensis, welcome to the Committee, and you may proceed with
    your opening remarks.

       TESTIMONY OF THE HONORABLE GORDON HARTOGENSIS,\1\ TO BE A
                 GOVERNOR, UNITED STATES POSTAL SERVICE

        Mr. Hartogensis. Thank you Chair Peters, Ranking Member
    Paul, in absentia, and distinguished Members of the Committee,
    it's an honor to appear before you today as you consider my
    nomination to be a Governor of the United States Postal
    Service. I want to thank the President of the United States for
    nominating me to this important position.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
        \1\ The prepared statement of Mr. Hartogensis appears in the
    Appendix on page 114.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
        I am here today with my wife, Grace, and I want to also
    thank her for her support. My journey to public service began
    when I was a teenager. I grew up in Rockville, Maryland, and
    attended Montgomery County Public Schools from K through 12. I
    remember how proud I was watching my father serve on the
    Rockville City Council, addressing the city's problems and
    making it a better place to live.
        After a career in business, which included working on Wall
    Street co-founding two technology startups that were
    successfully acquired, and working as an angel investor, I came
    to Washington to give back and serve my country.
        During the last five years, I served as director of the
    Pension Benefit Guarantee Corporation. When I started the
    position in 2019, the PBGC had insufficient funds to address a
    widespread crisis across many insured multiplayer plans, which
    threatened drastic cuts to the pensions of workers in the
    transportation, mining, manufacturing, and construction
    industries.
        By 2025, this crisis threatened not only these workers, but
    also the employers who participated in multiemployer plans. The
    desire to find a solution was bipartisan, as could be seen in
    the Joint Select Committee on Multiemployer Pension Solvency.
    In 2018, I worked with Congress to design a rescue and oversaw
    its implementation by the PBGC until my departure last spring.
        If confirmed as a Governor of the United States Postal
    Service, I would be honored to dedicate myself to work to make
    the Postal Service fulfill its mission of universal service
    while operating in a financially sustainable manner. The USPS
    has some major challenges ahead, including the implementation
    of its 10-year Delivering for America plan. As a Governor, my
    role would be to work with the board to review the strategy of
    the USPS to ensure it makes sense, provide oversight, and hold
    management accountable to the milestones and goals of the
    organization.
        Additionally, I believe there is a role for the board to
    ensure there's transparency for outside stakeholders, including
    Congress, regulators, and the public. The Postal Service is a
    part of government that touches every American, and is an
    essential part of the infrastructure underlying the American
    economy and society at large.
        I believe that my background in both the private and public
    sectors makes me an ideal candidate for this role. My private
    sector background in business and technology will allow me to
    review the operational plans of the organization and allow me
    to provide useful feedback to management. My time at PBGC will
    allow me to contribute to the discussion on compensation for
    employees, benefit structures, and pension funding challenges.
    My experience in government has taught me to tackle big
    problems objectively and to view potential solutions through
    the lens of political reality.
        The U.S. Postal Service is an essential service that
    touches everyone. Any disruption in service is going to be met
    with fierce backlash from stakeholders. It's important to
    communicate effectively the benefits of any changes that impact
    the end customer's experience. At the same time, the Postal
    Service is a wonderful part of our lives. It brings us holiday
    cards, birthday presents, and love letters.
        Post offices bring together rural communities and give an
    identity to many small towns while kids today still call it
    snail mail. The well-timed handwritten letter has never quite
    gone out of style. When one wishes to make an impression, the
    USPS is an institution that's worth protecting, and if
    confirmed, I would be extremely proud to have the opportunity
    to help
        In conclusion, if I am confirmed, I would be honored to
    serve on the Board of Governors of the United States Postal
    Service. My mother, who's 87, still uses the mail for all of
    her correspondence and bill payments. I met my wife, Grace, in
    1989, and still have letters that she wrote to me during our
    first year together. The Postal Service is important to all of
    us, and I would love the opportunity to put my skills and
    experience to work in service of this critical and beloved
    institution.
        Thank you for allowing me to appear today. I am happy to
    answer any questions.
        Chairman Peters. Thank you.
        Our next nominee is James Lake. Mr. Lake currently serves
    as the Chief of the Workers' Rights and Anti-Fraud Section of
    the Office of the Attorney General (OAG) for the District of
    Columbia. He first joined the office as a trial attorney in the
    Office of Consumer Protection. Previously, Mr. Lake worked as
    an associate at Bredhoff & Kaiser, PLLC, where he represented,
    local, and national labor unions, and multiemployer pension
    plans in litigation in both State and Federal court.
        Mr. Lake, welcome to the committee. You may proceed with
    your opening remarks.

       TESTIMONY OF JAMES G. LAKE,\1\ TO BE AN ASSOCIATE JUDGE,
               SUPERIOR COURT OF THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA

        Mr. Lake. I appreciate it. Chair Peters, Ranking Member
    Paul, and Members of the Committee, I am humbled and honored to
    appear before you today as you consider my nomination to join
    the Superior Court bench. I want to thank your staff for their
    courtesy and professionalism during this process. I also wish
    to thank the District of Columbia Judicial Nomination
    Commission, and especially its Chair, the Honorable Marie Johns
    for recommending me to the White House. I thank President Biden
    for nominating me.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
        \1\ The prepared statement of Mr. Lake appears in the Appendix on
    page 156.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
        I want to express special gratitude to my family, the love
    of my life, my wife, Elizabeth Wilkins, is an extraordinary
    partner in all things, and not a day goes by that I don't think
    about how lucky I am to be on this journey with her. My two
    children are my joy and my inspiration, and yes, they have been
    bribed with sweets to be on their best behavior today. We will
    see how that works out. To my sisters, Cynthia, Ellen, and
    Betsy, I am who I am because of the strong women in my life,
    and I am extraordinarily grateful to be your kid brother.
        Finally, I owe an enormous debt to my parents, Prudence and
    David, who moved to Washington, DC in 1970. My father to become
    a tax lawyer and my mother eventually to work for a
    neighborhood church. They raised my sisters and me with
    unconditional love, a strong commitment to family, and a whole
    of joy, an approach Elizabeth and I try to emulate every day as
    parents.
        I currently serve as the chief of the Workers' Rights and
    Anti-Fraud Section at the Office of the Attorney General for
    the District of Columbia. I have had the privilege of leading
    that section since its creation in 2021, working alongside an
    extraordinary group of lawyers and staff to build a high-
    volume, affirmative litigation practice, helping thousands of
    district workers secure essential rights in the workplace.
        Both in this role and before that, as a trial attorney in
    the office doing consumer protection work, I have litigated
    regularly in Superior Court, and value the institution and its
    importance to the city. If confirmed, I will do my level best
    to emulate the example set by the fair-minded jurists currently
    on the court, and to ensure that the institution performs at
    the level of excellence that the public rightly expects of it.
        Throughout this nomination process, I found myself thinking
    about the great fortune I had at the start of my legal career
    in serving as a law clerk for several brilliant, hardworking,
    and even-handed jurists. I am extraordinarily grateful to count
    two of them as mentors to this day; Judge Harry T. Edwards of
    the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit,
    and Judge Michael Piche of the U.S. District Court for the
    District of Connecticut. If confirmed, I will draw not only on
    the lessons I learned as their law clerk, but also from as much
    advice as they will be willing to give me.
        I will not have the same opportunity with Judge Mark R.
    Kravitz of the U.S. District Court for the District of
    Connecticut, for whom I clerked for four months before he died
    at the hands of Lou Gehrig's disease. Judge Kravitz was kind
    and fair-minded, in equal parts, compassionate and brilliant.
    As chair of the U.S. Judicial Conference
        Advisory Committee on the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure,
    a civil procedure nerd at heart.
        It was awful to watch a terrible disease run its course. I
    look back on that time with great sadness, but I also look back
    with a measure of gratitude. I am thankful to have learned what
    I did while I could from Judge Kravitz, and his memory will
    serve as an important loadstar if, with your advice and
    consent, I am fortunate enough to chart my own course as a
    judge.
        As a native Washingtonian, it has been an honor working
    alongside the dedicated public servants at the Office of the
    Attorney General for the District of Columbia, on behalf of the
    people of the city. If confirmed, I look forward to serving the
    District and its residents in a new role as an associate judge
    of the Superior Court of the District of Columbia.
        Thank you again for the opportunity to appear before you
    today. I look forward to your questions.
        Chairman Peters. Thank you.
        Our fifth and final nominee is Nicholas Miranda. Mr.
    Miranda currently serves as the Chief of the Victim Wellness
    Assistance Unit at the U.S. Attorney's Office for the District
    of Columbia, where he leads the team of 30 professionals. Prior
    to this role, he worked in the Office of Cyber Crimes, Federal
    Child Exploitation and Human Trafficking Unit. Mr. Miranda has
    served on detail as an associate counsel at the Office of White
    House Counsel as well. He has also worked as an associate at
    Morrison Foerster, LLP.
        Mr. Miranda, it's good to have you here today. You may
    proceed with your opening remarks.

    STATEMENT OF NICHOLAS G. MIRANDA,\1\ TO BE AN ASSOCIATE JUDGE,
               SUPERIOR COURT OF THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA

        Mr. Miranda. Thank you. Good morning, Chair Peters, Ranking
    Member Paul, and the Members of the Committee. I am honored and
    humbled to appear before you today. I thank you and your staff
    for holding this hearing, and I thank you for your
    consideration of my nomination to be an associate judge of the
    Superior Court of the District of Columbia.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
        \1\ The prepared statement of Mr. Miranda appears in the Appendix
    on page 181.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
        I also wish to thank the District of Columbia Judicial
    Nomination Commission and its chair, the Honorable Marie Johns
    for recommending me to this position to the White House, and
    President Joseph Biden for nominating me. I would like to
    express my gratitude to my current and former colleagues at the
    U.S. Attorney's Office, and especially to the U.S. Attorney and
    Principal United States Deputy U.S. Attorney for their
    leadership and encouragement.
        I owe an immense debt to all of my friends and family for
    their support and guidance, and I especially want to
    acknowledge those members of my family that are here with me
    today. My daughter, Eleanor, my wife Caroline, my mother-in-
    law, Nga, my stepfather, Vic, and my mother, Susan. Words
    simply cannot express how grateful I am for all they have
    sacrificed and given to me. Without them, I would not be here,
    and I am so incredibly proud to call them my family.
        I have dedicated my legal career to serving the public
    inspired, by the path blazed by my mother who had me while she
    was putting herself through night law school. Since 2012, I
    have been an Assistant United States Attorney (AUSA) at the
    U.S. Attorney's Office in the District of Columbia. In this
    role, I have prosecuted hundreds and hundreds of violent crimes
    in our community with the focus on sexual assault and child
    sexual abuse, and I have tried dozens of cases in DC Superior
    Court since May 2021.
        I have also served as Chief of the Office's Victim Witness
    Assistance Unit. In this role, I lead a team dedicated to
    helping victims and witnesses of crime in the District by
    providing them with trauma-informed care, safety planning,
    emergency housing, necessary service referrals, and help
    navigating the complex judicial process across multiple
    divisions of the DC Superior Court.
        Throughout my career, I have seen firsthand the important
    work that the DC Superior Court does, how it touches the life
    of every single one of us in this community, and how important
    it is for it to have a full court so that it can fulfill its
    mission.
        I believe in my experience would allow me to immediately
    make a difference, and it would be a privilege of a lifetime to
    have the opportunity to continue to serve the District in a new
    role as an associate judge on the court.
        Thank you, again, for the opportunity to appear before you
    today. I look forward to your questions.
        Chairman Peters. Thank you.
        There are three questions that the Committee ask of every
    nominee that I am going to ask each of you to respond briefly
    with just a yes or no. That's very brief. We will start with
    Congresswoman Demings, and then we will work down the dais.
    First, is there anything you are aware of in your background
    that might present a conflict of interest with the duties of
    the office to which you have been nominated?
        Ms. Demings. No.
        Ms. Zollars. No.
        Mr. Hartogensis. No.
        Mr. Lake. No.
        Mr. Miranda. No.
        Chairman Peters. Second, do you know of anything personal
    or otherwise that would any way prevent you from fully and
    honorably discharging the responsibilities of the office to
    which you have been nominated?
        Ms. Demings. No.
        Ms. Zollars. No.
        Mr. Hartogensis. No.
        Mr. Lake. No.
        Mr. Miranda. No.
        Chairman Peters. Last, do you agree without reservation to
    comply with any request or summons to appear and testify before
    any duly constituted committee of Congress, if confirmed?
        Ms. Demings. Yes.
        Ms. Zollars. Yes.
        Mr. Hartogensis. Yes.
        Mr. Lake. Yes.
        Mr. Miranda. Yes.
        Chairman Peters. Great. Thank you. My first questions are
    going to be to the three Board of Governors here. The Postal
    Service, as you are all aware, has launched plans to make
    significant nationwide changes to its operational network,
    including facility consolidations and changes to service
    standards. The service impacts and the cost of these changes
    certainly must be considered, I believe, very carefully, and
    the Postal Service should not make any changes if it will
    significantly harm service, which should always be first and
    foremost in everyone's mind.
        To examine these changes, the Postal Service has requested
    an advisory opinion from its regulator, the Postal Regulatory
    Commission. The PRC will further study the impacts and will
    issue its findings and recommendations, shortly, expecting them
    in July to be released.
        My questions to the three Governors, I will start with you
    Congressman Demings, and the other three, and then I will mix
    it up with some other questions. But we will have you do the
    first one. If confirmed, would you commit to carefully
    reviewing the PRC's opinion, including its findings on service
    and cost impacts? And you can do yes or no on this, and I am
    going to have a follow-up.
        Ms. Demings. Chair Peters, thank you so much for that
    question. It is a resounding yes.
        Chairman Peters. Great. Thank you. Mr. Zollars.
        Mr. Zollars. Yes, as well.
        Chairman Peters. Now let's dig a little deeper. We will
    start again with Congresswoman Demings, and then I will move it
    to the next questions. Congresswoman, would you encourage
    Postal Service management to carefully consider the PRC
    recommendations and discuss adjusting its plans? If you see
    concerns, will you certainly weigh in aggressively to make sure
    that they are at least addressing those concerns? How would you
    do that?
        Ms. Demings. I think the three nominees have pretty clearly
    expressed the importance of the United States Postal Service to
    the American people. I told the story about my grandmother to
    try to paint a picture that it matters to a person who cannot
    read or write, but lives in a very extremely rural area.
        And so, yes, when we are considering major decisions,
    certainly, as the Board of Governors, we need all of the
    information possible to make sure that we are making the right
    decisions that do not negatively impact the mission of the U.S.
    Postal Service. I believe that the Postal Regulatory
    Commission, plays a critical role in making sure that we have
    the information that we need.
        Chairman Peters. Thank you. Mr. Zollars.
        Mr. Zollars. Yes. Based on what I saw in my three years, my
    previous term, every one of the recommendations from the PRC is
    really seriously considered. I see no reason that that will
    change, as well as seriously considering recommendations that
    we get from our other constituencies.
        Chairman Peters. Thank you. Mr. Hartogensis.
        Mr. Hartogensis. I think it's very important for the U.S.
    Postal Service to be responsive to its stakeholders and
    oversight, whether it comes from the PRC or from Congress, and
    to take very seriously and weigh recommendations and look into
    what can be done on them.
        Chairman Peters. Thank you. Very good. I am going to start
    with you and Mr. Zollars, and then we will go down and back to
    finish with Congresswoman Demings. The Governors of the Postal
    Service, as you well know, are the organization's key
    decisionmakers. This is a big job, a lot of responsibility, as
    you know. The Governors decide the Postal Services overall
    strategic direction, provide oversight, and make key decisions
    on finances, investments, operating plans, prices, and so much
    more.
        I have heard about your willingness to make sure you are
    looking at PRC and looking at those recommendations, but I
    think the Committee would like to hear that if confirmed, how
    are you going to approach the responsibility of taking an
    active, vigorous role in leading the Postal Service?
        Sometimes we see, perhaps say, a backseat to Postal Service
    management, and we would expect the Board of Governors to be
    actively engaged and use the expertise that each and every one
    of you have. But please reassure the Committee that if
    confirmed you will not be in the backseat. You are going to be
    in the front seat, and you are going to be doing things to
    drive that process. Give us some examples of how you have done
    that and why we should feel comfortable that that's indeed
    going to occur. Mr. Zollars, we will start with you and then
    Mr. Hartogensis.
        Mr. Zollars. Sure. Mr. Chair, I think maybe it would be
    helpful to just redefine kind of the role of the Board of
    Governors versus the role of the Postmaster General (PMG) and
    the management team. The way I think about this and the easiest
    way to explain the difference in that role is that the Board of
    Governors is responsible for determining the what, along with
    the PMG. The how is really the responsibility of the operating
    management of the organization.
        We provide a lot of input to the management team. I was
    honored to serve as the chair of the operations committee.
    That's the place where we dig into a lot of these issues that
    could impact service with our dual objective in mind of making
    sure that we provide world-class service and also do it in a
    sustainable way from a cash-flow perspective.
        I would assume that that will continue if I am looking
    enough to be reappointed. But you can be sure that the
    governance responsibility of the board is really at the
    forefront of all of our discussions with management and where
    we see a need for course correction, we do that. We have that
    discussion with management in a very active way.
        Just maybe one other point of reference here, and that is
    that the Board of Governors is really a bipartisan group. It's
    very difficult. I think people would be hard pressed to
    determine which side of the aisle any of the Governors was on
    based on the conversations that take place in the boardroom.
    This is a very active group of people. They all take the
    responsibility very seriously and act in accordance with the
    oath that we have taken to make sure that the American people
    get the best possible product from the Postal Service.
        Chairman Peters. Great. Mr. Hartogensis.
        Mr. Hartogensis. Thank you. If confirmed, I plan to dig in
    in two areas. One, leveraging my background in logistics. I ran
    a software company that did supply chain management software
    resupplying gas stations and convenience stores. So, hoping to
    use that background to look at the operational plans of the
    USPS, and just to see if they make sense and evaluate those,
    and in some cases, try to add value and make the plans better.
        The second is my background in the Pension Benefit
    Guarantee Corporation. Take a look at the compensation
    structure, how the organization is managing its pension. If
    there are shortfalls, what's being done, and hoping to improve
    the overall funding status of the organization based on that
    experience. Thank you.
        Chairman Peters. Congresswoman Demings.
        Ms. Demings. Chair Peters, I believe, if we remember why we
    are here in the first place. This is about providing the best
    service possible to the American people. It's not about what
    Republicans thinks, or Democrats think, or Independents thinks.
    It is about providing the best service, making sure that the
    oldest, most reliable institution that is trusted by the
    American people remains solvent.
        I was appointed chief when crime was at an all-time high. I
    remember working with management within the organization, other
    stakeholders, the mayor, the city commission, the faith-based
    community, the business community, everybody who the police
    department interacted with or touched to make sure that we were
    making the best decisions on behalf of our community.
        If confirmed, I will fight hard for the American people to
    make sure, regardless of who you are, or where you live, how
    much money you may have in the bank. Just like my grandmother
    who lived way back up in the woods, but the United States
    Postal Service met her where she was. I will bring that same
    spirit and attitude, and fight on behalf of the American
    people.
        Chairman Peters. Great. Thank you for each of your answers.
    We are multitasking here, as we do every day. They have called
    votes. I am going to recognize Senator Hassan to speak, and she
    will also take the gavel while I go vote, and I will return.
    Senator Hassan, you are recognized for your comments.

                  OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR HASSAN

        Senator Hassan [presiding.] Thank you very much Chair
    Peters, and I thank you and the Ranking Member for holding this
    hearing. Thank you to all the nominees for being here today,
    and for your willingness to serve in these really important
    roles.
        Congresswoman, it's good to see you again. I want to start
    with a question to you. Trust in the Postal Service is
    obviously key to its success. So, any changes in Postal Service
    operations that jeopardize the security or reliability of mail
    and package delivery need to be carefully scrutinized. While
    granite-staters and Americans across the country depend on the
    Postal Service to deliver mail, packages, medicine, and
    important documents, especially in rural areas, fewer and fewer
    people and small businesses are choosing to use the Postal
    Service fearing that their mail may be stolen, or lost, or
    delayed.
        It is not just postal customers who are concerned about
    mail security and customer service. I recently spoke to members
    of the Rural Letter Carriers Association in New Hampshire, who
    fear for their own safety while delivering mail. One of them
    was recently held up at gunpoint, and the arrow key he had was
    stolen. These carriers are urging the Postal Service to put in
    place simple common-sense fixes to prevent mail theft and
    ensure that the mail is delivered on time. How will you work to
    prioritize investments in mail security and customer service to
    rebuild trust in the Postal Service?
        Ms. Demings. Senator Hassan, thank you so much for that
    question. Certainly, having served as a 27-year law enforcement
    officer, I do believe that public safety is the foundation on
    which we operate. How can we deliver the mail, or packages, or
    medicine, or meet the needs of small businesses and others if
    our postal workers are not safe?
        Senator Hassan. Yes.
        Ms. Demings. We have to, as a member of the Board of
    Governors, if confirmed, I will continue to work with the
    postal inspector as well as make recommendations as needed
    regarding prosecution with the AGs offices to make sure that we
    are, No. 1, having a proactive approach to securing the mail
    and protecting our workers, but also making sure that if you
    violate the law, that you will be held accountable for doing
    so.
        Senator Hassan. I appreciate that, and I would say that the
    carriers themselves have some very straightforward
    recommendations that I hope people will reach out to them and
    really do some listening because they also could use some safe
    vehicles. I will add that in rural parts of our State, this is
    a real concern as well.
        Ms. Demings. Thank you.
        Senator Hassan. Mr. Hartogensis, in August, Postmaster
    General DeJoy announced plans that will result in slower mail
    delivery in many communities. The impact of this proposal is
    really clear: rural communities will wait longer for mail to be
    delivered. This is unacceptable, and it comes at the same time
    as the Postal Services plans to move mail processing out of
    Manchester, New Hampshire, which is also expected to cause
    additional delays for people in my State.
        Even though the efforts to move mail processing out of
    Manchester are currently paused, the Postal Services said that
    it will continue moving forward with these plans next year. If
    confirmed, what steps will you take to stop the implementation
    of proposals that will slow down mail delivery, especially for
    rural communities?
        Mr. Hartogensis. Thank you for the question. I am sorry to
    hear about that in New Hampshire, Senator Hassan. I think a
    critical role of the Board of Governors is really to take a
    look at the plans and hold the management of the USPS,
    including the Postmaster General, accountable.
        If there are things that are causing delays that are
    mishaps, the important thing for us to look at is; is this a
    mistake that's correctable, a glitch that we can learn from and
    make things better, or is it part of a recurring pattern that's
    not, which requires a course correction? I think it's critical
    for the Board of Governors to determine which is which. If it
    requires a course correction, take action.
        Senator Hassan. I appreciate that. I would let you know
    that in conversation sometimes with management and sometimes
    with the Regulatory Commission, my impression has been that
    there is not the kind of consultation with employees just
    probing their expertise, getting their feedback about things,
    talking to people in the States who know the States.
        For instance, the New Hampshire move from Manchester is
    supposed to go to Boston, and they say it's just 50 miles. It's
    one of the most congested places in America. It's a 2-hour
    drive that you have to plan for, right? That just changes the
    dynamic of the timing from the processing center to an entire
    State. You will hear that from other colleagues of mine as
    well. Yet, when we raise these issues and say why don't you
    talk to the employees, what we get is, well, once the employees
    accept the changes, things will go fine.
        These are experienced carriers, professionals, processors
    who deserve not only respect, but their expertise needs to be
    respected as well. I hope you-all will take that under
    advisement and really do some outreach here.
        Mr. Zollars, I had a question for you as well. The Board of
    Governors plays a key role in conducting oversight of the
    Postal Service. That's what we are talking about. I really
    appreciated your comment that the performance of the Postal
    Service really represents promises kept. New Hampshire's also
    the home of the longest, continuously used postal office in the
    country. Hinsdale, New Hampshire, of about 4,000 people, has
    had that postal office in operation since 1816, and we are very
    proud of it.
        And day in and day out, since then, the Postal Service has
    really worked very hard to keep its promises. I appreciated
    that comment. The Board should ensure that proposed operational
    changes undergo a robust cost-benefit analysis that includes
    consideration of the Postal Services fundamental service
    obligations.
        We have talked a little bit about the Regulatory
    Commission's advisory report, what you-all will do with that,
    but how will you independently weigh Postmaster DeJoy's
    proposals to cut costs against the service obligations of the
    Postal Service?
        Mr. Zollars. Thank you, Senator, for the question. It's a
    balancing act, as you know, between the two kind of joint
    objectives we have----
        Senator Hassan. Right.
        Mr. Zollars [continuing]. As an organization. We have to
    deliver world-class service, and at the same time, find a way
    to get financially stable over time.
        This past year since I have been gone, there have probably
    been a lot of changes. But I can tell you, when I was on the
    Board and heading the Operations Committee, we were in constant
    contact with other Board members about how operations were
    going and where they looked like they were not tracking against
    the plan. We made suggestions to management about changes that
    should be made, and many times, those were adopted. I think
    that is an absolute must for the governance of this
    organization.
        But I think the other thing to keep in mind is we have a
    network that was designed before the advent of email. It's 40
    years old probably at this point. We are trying to become
    contemporary so we can compete with the United Parcel Service
    (UPS) and FedEx, and deliver that 95 percent on-time
    performance, which we should be delivering. But we have a lot
    of catch up to do.
        There are going to be changes to the network that are
    inevitable to get to a contemporary network. We are not
    planning on closing anything, as far as I know, but there will
    be operational changes because we have locations that are in
    the wrong place, with the wrong equipment, and the wrong
    training.
        The good news is that the 640,000 employees of the Postal
    Service are embracing that change. We spent a lot of time, and
    I personally have been on town hall meetings, with the
    Postmaster General where we do talk to employees and we do get
    their input, and that's extremely valuable. So, we're getting
    input from employees, we're getting input from the PRC, the
    Office of Inspector General (OIG), Congress, and we are taking
    all that into consideration.
        But at the end of the day, it's really our responsibility
    to monitor the performance of the PMG and make sure that we are
    tracking against the plan. Anytime we are not shy about going
    to the PMG and talking about changes that need to be made, and
    I think that will continue to happen.
        Senator Hassan. I appreciate that. I am way over time, and
    I am about to turn the microphone over to Senator Rosen. But
    just one or two thoughts. The network may be outdated, but my
    constituents depend on the Postal Service for some things now
    that they did not 40 years ago, like the delivery of their
    medications.
        I just want to be really clear about how we go about
    thinking about what the ultimate goal is and what the
    responsibility to customers are. I appreciate your interest in
    that, and I will just ask all three of you to keep that in mind
    as well.
        Mr. Lake and Mr. Miranda, I am sorry we did not get to you,
    but thank you for your willingness to serve. I look forward to
    supporting you. With that, I will turn it over to Senator
    Rosen.

                   OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR ROSEN

        Senator Rosen. Thank you, Senator Hassan, and appreciate
    that, and appreciate your comments. Of course, Ranking Member
    and Chair are not here, but I appreciate them holding this
    hearing. Of course, to all the nominees for your willingness to
    serve. I would like to especially welcome my friend,
    Congresswoman Val Demings, who I had the privilege of serving
    within the House of Representatives. I want to thank you for
    your lifetime of service, and your willingness to continue that
    service, Congresswoman.
        My first question is to you. As you may know, for nearly a
    year, the Postal Service attempted to relocate certain mail
    out-processing from Reno, Nevada to Sacramento, California.
    This very misguided decision would have had a detrimental
    impact on Nevadans, including seniors, veterans, small business
    owners in rural communities who depend on the Post Office for
    on time, reliable service.
        It's why I led the charge against this misguided plan,
    including in this Committee. I also introduced and co-led with
    Chair Peter's bipartisan legislation to stop the implementation
    of this proposal. I am pleased to share that following these
    efforts, the Postal Service announced that local letter mail
    processing will remain in Reno.
        However, more work has to be done to mitigate the negative
    impacts of the Postal Service's proposed nationwide network
    changes that are set to take effect next year. I might add, why
    is it so misguided? I know you are from Florida, and so we have
    Lake Tahoe between Reno and Sacramento, and there's a very
    famous pass called the Donner Pass. There's only one way to get
    from Reno to Sacramento, and it's closed an average of 30 days
    a year due to wildfires and weather. It is very treacherous,
    and so it is very misguided to move our mail there to send most
    of it back to Nevada.
        Anyway, Congresswoman Demings, if confirmed, how will you
    ensure that the Postal Service provides reliable service to all
    Americans no matter where they live? You spoke about your
    grandmother and how would you combat the proposed Postal
    Service initiatives that would undermine performances in places
    like Reno?
        Ms. Demings. Senator Rosen, thank you so much for that
    question, and thank you so much for your kind words earlier. As
    a police chief who was appointed when crime was at an all-time
    high, the people in the community expected us to make decisions
    that would help reduce the crime rate and keep them safe, but
    also not negatively impact their quality of life.
        We had our thoughts and ideas about what we believed would
    work, but we also included stakeholders in the community. We
    asked their thoughts. We would present what we felt was a good
    idea, but then asked their thoughts since they were the
    recipients of the service that we were going to provide.
        I am someone who believes that data matters. Research
    matters. We know that we want to make sure that the Post Office
    is reliable, and affordable, sustainable, but we have to make
    sure that we are in the public service business. I am quite
    familiar with the scenario that you talked about. To take the
    mail and transport it 131 miles away from someone who's right
    there may not have been the most thought-out plan.
        As a Governor, if confirmed, I will certainly work with
    management and my fellow Board of Governors to make sure that
    we have all of the information, that we have done our research,
    we have talked to people who will be directly negatively
    impacted. As Senator Hassan said earlier, people who are
    actually doing the job and maybe a little bit more familiar
    with some of the challenges. We will make sure we have the
    information to make sure that the mission of the Post Office is
    not adversely affected.
        Senator Rosen. Thank you. Mr. Zollars, my question is next
    for you because the Postal Service recently requested an
    advisory opinion from the Postal Regulatory Commission on
    specific aspects of its Delivering for America plan. While it's
    encouraging to see the Postal Service engage with the
    Commission, I am deeply concerned that any recommendations
    offered by the Commission will ultimately not be followed by
    the Postal Service.
        According to Federal law, the Commission's final opinion is
    advisory in nature, does not give the Commission the authority
    to alter or prohibit service changes. Mr. Zollars, I would like
    to direct this question to you. Do you agree that the
    Commission's advisory opinions should be non-binding?
        Mr. Zollars. I think all of the advisories from the PRC are
    taken extremely seriously. We will certainly look at this one.
    I was not on the board when this issue surfaced, but certainly,
    I will commit to giving it serious consideration when it comes
    back, as I am sure the rest of the board members will.
        Senator Rosen. Would you consider, if you are confirmed or
    reconfirmed to the board, you would support changes to Federal
    law that would give the Commission the authority to prohibit or
    alter service changes?
        Mr. Zollars. I am not familiar enough with that issue to
    respond to that in a thoughtful way.
        Senator Rosen. Congresswoman Demings, would you like to
    respond to that?
        Ms. Demings. We know that Congress plays a major role in
    deciding policy that affects the Post Office. And having served
    in the U.S. House of Representatives, we want to make sure that
    we are meeting our constitutional obligation and responsibility
    to pass legislation, or support legislation, or review proposed
    legislation that will help us accomplish the core mission of
    the United States Postal Service.
        Senator Rosen. Thank you. Mr. Hartogensis, would you like
    to respond to that?
        Mr. Hartogensis. Yes. I would say we would certainly be
    open to discussing any potential legislation with Congress that
    would help us get better feedback and working with you. As far
    as, you know, the merits of any particular legislation, I can't
    comment since I don't know enough about it.
        Senator Rosen. Would you agree that the U.S. Congress has
    oversight over the Postal Service?
        Mr. Hartogensis. Absolutely.
        Senator Rosen. Mr. Zollars.
        Mr. Zollars. Yes, absolutely.
        Senator Rosen. Ms. Demings.
        Ms. Demings. Absolutely.
        Senator Rosen. Thank you. I am the chair now. I am looking
    at my time---- [Laughter.]
        I am like wait a minute. Everybody wants to vote. My time
    is up. I am going to go over to look at Senator Peters, and
    he's voting. I am the chair, and so I yield the rest of my time
    and pass to Senator Butler.

                  OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR BUTLER

        Senator Butler. Thank you, Senator Rosen. Thank you-all for
    being willing to serve, and your families for supporting you in
    public service. I actually am going to go in a little bit of an
    order that I had not anticipated because I appreciate the
    importance of justice in the District of Columbia, and the,
    frankly, incredible backlog that is facing so many District
    residents in accessing that justice.
        Mr. Lake and Mr. Miranda, to the point of, I think, what is
    the most important for the District of Columbia? That is the
    caseload. Just quickly, I wanted to just ask. You-all are
    familiar with the numbers. The Superior Court of the District
    of Columbia serves almost 700,000 people. The latest data that
    we have been that has been made available, new case filings are
    increasing by 41 percent, nearly 45,000 filings. The Chair
    noted the vacancies on the court, and we are quickly trying to
    address those as a part of this Committee.
        What do you feel like are the biggest challenges that you
    would face transitioning to the Superior Court, and what's your
    plan to make that transition a smooth one for the purposes of
    getting to swifter justice for the residents of the District of
    Columbia? I am happy to start with you, Mr. Miranda.
        Mr. Miranda. Thank you. First, let me begin with the second
    part of your question. The answer to that is that I know DC
    Superior Court. I have practiced in DC Superior Court for more
    than a decade. I have been lead counsel in hundreds, and
    hundreds, and hundreds of criminal cases. I have tried dozens
    of cases in DC Superior Court as an AUSA and further, as Chief
    of the Victim Witness Assistance Unit. I have worked with
    multiple divisions of DC Superior Court, from family court, and
    domestic violence court, to probate, to the Crime Victims
    Compensation program.
        The biggest thing that I can offer in transition is to use
    a cliched phrase a little bit. I can ``hit the ground running''
    because I have that directly applicable experience, and I have
    deep knowledge of the inner workings. Because when it comes
    down to it, I absolutely agree with you that one of the biggest
    issues facing the citizens of the District of Columbia and a
    continued reason for the relatively high crime rate is part of
    this backlog and not getting judges on who can expeditiously
    review and resolve cases.
        Senator Butler. Thank you, Mr. Miranda. Mr. Lake.
        Mr. Lake. Senator, thank you for highlighting the backlog.
    I do think it's trite, but true, that justice delayed can be
    justice denied. I think it's important to think through the
    ways in which as a judge, if confirmed, I can help alleviate
    and move cases quickly, fairly, and efficiently.
        I think to the other part of your question, I do think my
    experience has been managing a high-volume investigation,
    litigation practice. I, like Mr. Miranda, expect to be able to
    hit the ground running in terms of moving through a high-volume
    docket fairly and efficiently.
        Senator Butler. Thank you, both. To our Board of Governors'
    nominees, you are welcome. I wanted to give you a little bit of
    a break. [Laughter.]
        I noticed everybody drinking a little water, taking three
    minutes from me to you. But in all seriousness, I think the
    energy that has been directed toward your nominations is
    deserving on behalf of the American people and the important
    roles to which you all are being nominated.
        I come from one of the largest States in our country, in
    California. It is not just Hollywood and the San Francisco Bay
    Bridge. It is 58 counties, rural and urban, diverse in its
    geography, and difficult in terms of managing the goals and
    objectives relative to the United States Postal Service. I have
    spent my time on this Committee really trying to be a voice for
    the parts of California that don't get a lot of attention, our
    rural communities.
        I want to start with you, Mr. Zollars. You made a few
    points that I thought were worth understanding a little bit
    more, particularly noting your service on the operations
    committee. I have talked in this Committee about a few post
    offices in California that, frankly, have been closed for more
    than a year.
        I have written to the postmaster general and I have talked
    to him. I think he was sitting at very seat in which you are
    sitting, talked to him about the challenges of California
    relative to climate and wildfires, storms, all the things that
    have led to these post office closings. But with no real
    demonstrable effort to get to a place where these communities
    could be consistently served and meeting the operational
    obligations of the Post Office.
        If you were confirmed, can you talk a bit about what
    actions you would take as a member of the board--and also, its
    Subcommittees. I appreciate you raising the Subcommittees to
    take a look at those post offices that have been closed for
    extended periods of time around the country, particularly our
    rural communities, to ensure them that they are not going to be
    like Niland, California, in its third consecutive year without
    a permanent post office. I want to pose that question to the
    three of you.
        Mr. Zollars. Thanks for the question. Being a resident of a
    flyover country, I understand the rural issue pretty well
    because I am in the middle of some rural communities. I can
    tell you it is top of mind with the Board of Governors,
    something we talk about at almost every meeting, something that
    we are striving to make sure meets the standard of making sure
    every American gets reliable, dependable service.
        Senator Butler. Mr. Zollars, I am not the interrupting
    type. But as my daughter would say, I am going to be the
    interrupting chicken right now, and just say three years of a
    permanent closure that was told to be temporary, three years
    now has become somewhat permanent for these residents. Striving
    is nice, but not meeting the needs of this particular
    community. I am sure it is not the only one.
        I appreciate the niceties. I genuinely do. But I just want
    to know, just straightforward, how do you see your role as the
    Board of Governors? What actionable things will you imagine
    given your previous service? What is within your purview as a
    member of the Board of Governors? How would you show up on
    behalf of these folks who've now been without a post office for
    three years? I got another one that's been closed for a year,
    and we can go down the list. But they deserve to know what you
    would do, what it means for you to be even be there in terms of
    their service. I know Mr. Chair, I am over time, but I really
    want to nail this question.
        Mr. Zollars. Sure. No, I think that's a very good question.
    I don't know specifics of the areas you are talking about.
    Happy to follow-up with you because I am not aware of the
    specifics. I have been gone for years, so I don't know if
    things are underway. But I can tell you that it's something we
    try and deal effectively and work with management on.
        The fact that the rural part of the network is the most
    challenging part, particularly when you have natural disasters
    like fires, and floods, and other things that get in the way of
    good service. I can tell you personally, I am committed to
    making sure that we do the best possible job with rural
    Americans and make sure that they have the same reliable,
    dependable services as the rest of the country.
        Senator Butler. Thank you, sir. I am beyond time, but I
    really appreciate everyone's willingness to serve. If there's
    another opportunity, we will follow-up with questions.
        Chairman Peters [presiding.] Senator Hawley, you are
    recognized for your questions.

                  OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR HAWLEY

        Senator Hawley. Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
    Congratulations to all the nominees. Thank you for being here.
    Mr. Zollars, let me just start with you, since you are from my
    neck of the woods, so to speak. Although I think you are a
    Kansas resident. Isn't that right?
        Mr. Zollars. Yes.
        I am on the wrong side of the line.
        Senator Hawley. Yes. I will try to overlook that.
        Mr. Zollars. But I have been on the other side of the line.
        Senator Hawley. Good.
        Mr. Zollars. I have lived on the Missouri side, so.
        Senator Hawley. Oh, good. I am warming right up to you.
    This is getting better and better. Let me just ask you,
    speaking about the significance, just picking up where Senator
    Butler left off. Actually, about the significance of delivery
    for rural communities, which characterizes so much of my State,
    so much of Kansas, and where I grew up. I grew up in a town of
    4,000 people.
        Yesterday, the Missouri Farm Bureau, which is my State's
    largest general farm organization, wrote to the postmaster
    general regarding the latest plans that the Postal Service has,
    that they are calling the Regional Transportation Optimization
    plan. As the Missouri Farm Bureau points out, what this plan
    amounts to is to eliminate end-of-day collection at post
    offices that are more than 50 miles from one of the nation's 60
    regional processing and distribution centers, and to take other
    actions that would reduce the mail flow to rural America.
        I think we have a poster. Let's just look here. So, that
    means everywhere in blue, everywhere in blue would lose mail
    pickup and some delivery and experienced reduced mail volume to
    residents. That's a lot of the country. That's most of my
    State. That's most of your State, Mr. Zollars. The Farm Bureau
    has very significant concerns about this, and frankly, so do I.
        I have asked the postmaster general about this myself and
    raised concerns just a month ago. But I want to point out
    something in the Farm Bureau letter that's particularly
    interesting. According to the USPS's own analysis, nearly 70
    percent of First-Class Mail volume in rural areas would
    experience significant downgrades under this plan. 70 percent.
    That's a big number.
        First, Mr. Chair, with your permission, without objection,
    I would like to enter this letter into the record.\1\
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
        \1\ The letter referenced by Senator Hawley appears in the Appendix
    on page 205.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
        Chairman Peters. Without objection.
        Senator Hawley. Thank you. Mr. Zollars, can I just ask you,
    are you familiar with this Regional Transportation Optimization
    Plan?
        Mr. Zollars. I have been out of the service of the Board of
    Governors for a year, so I don't know what's happening today. I
    was not aware of the specifics of that letter or what's going
    on with the current rural approach to mail delivery. But I am
    generally aware of the plan, yes.
        Senator Hawley. Do you support its implementation?
        Mr. Zollars. I support the implementation of the DFA when I
    was there. As I said, I don't know what adjustments have been
    made in the last year.
        Senator Hawley. I'm sorry, the DFA?
        Mr. Zollars. Delivering for America plan, which is the 10-
    year plan.
        Senator Hawley. Above which this is a subset.
        Mr. Zollars. This is a subset of that. Correct.
        Senator Hawley. Would you support this, what I have on this
    board behind?
        Mr. Zollars. I don't really have enough detail to let you
    know one way or the other.
        Senator Hawley. Let me ask you this. Would you commit to,
    if you are reappointed, commit to using your position here,
    your very significant position of influence and oversight to
    reconsider this proposal and make sure that rural Americans, in
    my State, your State, every State, are getting full and regular
    delivery of the mail
        Mr. Zollars. As a member of the flyover country community,
    absolutely.
        Senator Hawley. Let me just ask the other nominees this.
    Mr. Hartogensis, are you familiar with this plan, the regional
    optimization plan?
        Mr. Hartogensis. Not in detail enough to--you know, as this
    map is.
        Senator Hawley. Do you support its implementation?
        Mr. Hartogensis. From what I understand of the plan, there
    are good reasons for the plan in terms of the long-term
    modernization of the Postal Service. I do think it's important
    to take into account these types of concerns there. I mean,
    there are 350 million constituents for the, the Post Office. If
    rural communities are really being impacted negatively, I
    think, the USPS needs to learn from that and account for that
    as part of its mission and make sure that service is not
    sacrificed.
        Senator Hawley. That sounds like a little bit of a yes and
    a little bit of a no. Just on the Regional Transportation
    Optimization plan itself, do you support its implementation
    based on what you know?
        Mr. Hartogensis. Based on what I know, I support the plan
    in terms of modernization of the USPS. Like, I am not in the
    know enough to understand the exact impacts on rural
    communities, but I think that as a member of the Board of
    Governors, if confirmed, I think that we would need to look at
    that.
        Senator Hawley. OK. It sounds like what I am going to need
    to do is I am going to need to follow up-in writing with both
    of you. Maybe I will give you an opportunity to look at the
    details, because I am really concerned about this. I am really
    concerned about this.
        Let me honest with you, if we can't get some fidelity on
    this, and if I can't get your commitment that we are going to
    make sure that people in blue here do not lose 70 percent of
    their mail volume or have 70 percent of that volume downgraded,
    I am going to have a really hard time advancing your
    nominations. Congresswoman, can I just ask you, are you
    familiar with this plan? Do you support it?
        Ms. Demings. Senator Hawley, I am not familiar with that
    plan, but if confirmed, I certainly want to gather all of the
    information and all of the data that would justify
    implementation of this plan. Because it appears to me, just
    based on what you have shared with us, that is in conflict with
    the universal service obligation.
        Senator Hawley. Indeed.
        Ms. Demings. I do see Florida on your map as well, some
    parts, some significant areas in Florida, which the
    overwhelming majority of the State really is rural. I will
    definitely do my research to make sure that what we are
    supporting continues to meet the mission of the Post Office. I
    think you have heard my concern for rural areas in our country.
        Senator Hawley. Good. I appreciate that. I will follow-up
    with all three of you. I will let you-all look at this plan and
    do some homework on it, and then we will follow up in writing
    for the record.
        In my remaining time here, I know Senator Ossoff wants to
    ask questions. I think maybe Mr. Chair, we could do a second
    round after, I want to let Senator Ossoff go, but just well,
        Chairman Peters. Have a couple extra minutes. If you could
    do that, that would be fine. We won't have time for another
    round.
        Senator Ossoff. That's fine.
        Chairman Peters. I will have a soft gavel, with Senator
    Ossoff's acquiescence.
        Senator Hawley. OK. Let me ask the three of you about--just
    following-up again on something Senator Butler talked about.
    That is the delay in rebuilding post offices in Baring,
    Missouri. This is in Knox County. A little over a year ago, we
    had an EF2 tornado that knocked out the post office, the Baring
    Post Office. We are over a year on from that now, still not
    reopened.
        Now, the postmaster has sat right where you are sitting. I
    asked him about this. He pledged to me that he would get it
    rebuilt, reopened. I just want to know from your perspectives,
    are you willing to commit to me today that if confirmed you
    will work to get rural post offices, all post offices, but it's
    particularly, acute in our rural areas that have been put out
    of service. Will you commit to me to working to get those
    reopened on a timely basis?
        You think about this community, this is a small community.
    They have been without mail, essentially. They have to go drive
    somewhere far. They have been without mail for over a year. I
    mean, frankly, I think it's ridiculous. It's so bad that I have
    introduced legislation that would create a statutory
    requirement to rebuild these post offices in a timely fashion.
        Let me just ask you, and after that I have one more
    question. Let me just ask you if you are willing to commit to
    working on this, and to making sure we get these post offices
    reopened when they are damaged. We will just start with you,
    Congresswoman, go down the line.
        Ms. Demings. In Florida, we also have extreme weather
    issues to deal with. So, yes, if confirmed, I would commit to
    getting these post offices reopened as soon as possible.
        Mr. Zollars. I would commit to that as well.
        Mr. Hartogensis. I would commit to that as well.
        Senator Hawley. OK, thank you. Last thing, Mr. Chair.
    Congresswoman, let me just ask you about a little bit of your
    rhetoric that, I will be honest with you, I find a little bit
    worrisome and give you a chance to address it because this is a
    non-partisan position for which you are being nominated. I
    realize you have been in partisan politics, and that's fine. I
    am in partisan politics, but that's not this position.
        Let me just ask you about a thing or two that you have said
    that I find a little worrisome. Let's start with the democracy
    one. We heard a lot of talk in this most recent election, now
    concluded, about Republicans, and particularly the now
    President-elect, being a fascist which I think is incredibly
    irresponsible rhetoric. You said things like that, I think,
    Congresswoman. ``Kamala Harris believes in democracy. Donald
    Trump does not.''
        What's left to say. That's just from a little over a month
    ago, two months ago, September 10th. Do you want to address
    that? Just give me your perspective. Give us your perspective,
    for the record, about how you see this role, about this
    rhetoric. Let me just give you a chance to respond to that.
    There's one more I want to ask you about after this.
        Ms. Demings. Yes. I thank you for that, Senator Hawley.
    Having served as a law enforcement officer, as a police chief,
    certainly as a Member of Congress, I have certainly had
    opinions about the behavior of individuals on both sides of the
    aisle. But what I can assure you is that whether as a law
    enforcement officer or as a Member of Congress, or as a member
    of the Board of Governors, that my political opinions will
    never negatively impact the work that is before us on this very
    bipartisan board.
        Matter of fact, I currently travel all over the country,
    asked to do so along with former Republican members to talk
    about the importance of working together in a bipartisan way. I
    believe it is the only way that we can get the big things done,
    and strengthening the Post Office is a big thing that we need
    to get done.
        Senator Hawley. Last question for you on the same topic.
    Let's look at the other one. This is about the current
    President-elect's ability, constitutional right to serve. You
    said, ``After the Civil War, we ratified the 14th Amendment.''
    It says, ``People who tried to overthrow the government should
    be banned. Donald Trump tried to overthrow the government.''
    This was in reference to the cases that tried to get the former
    President, now future President, kicked off the ballot. ``I am
    deeply concerned about those cases. They failed at the U.S.
    Supreme Court weighing on this 9-0. Absolutely not. This is up
    to the people to decide.''
        My question for you is that since this time, since you have
    said that, he's been reelected, he's going to be the next
    President. If you are confirmed for this, you are going to
    serve under him, effectively. Are you able to do that? Just
    comment on this, what you have said, and your potential future
    role.
        Ms. Demings. Senator Hawley, when President Trump was first
    elected in 2016, he was not my candidate, but I went to his
    inauguration because the American people had spoken. I wanted
    to, in a very unified way, be there to support the President of
    the United States because the people had spoken. I believed it
    was a free and fair election, and it was important for the
    country to move forward.
        I was in the House chambers on January 6th. As you well
    remember, it was a tough time for our Nation, I think, for the
    Members of Congress and the American people. Expressing my
    opinion, coming out of that very tough time, we moved forward.
    The same person has been reelected. The American people have
    spoken, and I respect the will of the people.
        Again, I can assure you that any personal opinions or
    things that were said during a specific time in our history
    will not negatively impact my commitment to working with the
    Board of Governors to protect and strengthen the United States
    Postal Service so those people who live in rural areas that we
    both care about can receive the service that they deserve.
    Thank you.
        Chairman Peters. Thank you. Senator Ossoff, you are
    recognized for your questions.

                  OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR OSSOFF

        Senator Ossoff. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Congresswoman
    Demings, Mr. Zollars, Mr. Hartogensis, congratulations on your
    nominations.
        I want to discuss accountability. Just, if I could, by a
    show of hands, how many of you have had to fire somebody? All
    three. Are you prepared, if there is cause, as members of this
    board, to terminate any postmaster general, if necessary? Ms.
    Demings.
        Ms. Demings. Senator, thank you for that. Yes, I have been
    in the position of having to hire and terminate, and
    termination is based on performance. When you are not meeting
    the core mission of the institution, you don't deserve to
    remain in your job. If you are working along with the other
    stakeholders to meet the core mission of the organization, you
    deserve to keep your job. As the Governor, I will be clear
    about both.
        Mr. Zollars. Yes. In my case, Senator. I also have a lot of
    experience, unfortunately, in letting people go. I think to be
    clear about what we do at the Board of Governors, we do set
    annual goals for the postmaster general. We track those goals
    on a quarterly basis, and give him feedback along the way on
    how he's doing against those goals.
        When I left a year ago, there was tremendous support for
    the DFA and for the postmaster general. I am not sure that
    anything has changed, but if it was obvious that the postmaster
    general needed to be replaced, that's one of our primary
    responsibilities; is to hire and fire the postmaster general.
    We take that very seriously.
        Mr. Hartogensis. The short answer is yes. I think there are
    a few criteria where the Board of Governors should act with the
    postmaster general. One is lack of performance based on the
    milestones. Another one is failure to learn from mistakes,
    mistakes will happen, if it seems like the same things are
    being repeated without learning. The last one is lack of
    transparency to us, to Congress. If we feel like the management
    is hiding things, sweeping things under the rug, that's cause
    for termination.
        Senator Ossoff. Thank you all. Let's talk about USPS
    performance in my State. As of late spring, on-time delivery of
    First-Class Mail in North Georgia was at 36 percent. As you all
    know, that means seniors are not receiving their prescriptions.
    It means small businesses are not receiving supplies and cannot
    get products to market. It means that vital court
    correspondence, notices to appear (NTA), notices of eviction,
    are not being received by citizens.
        Postmaster General came here to this room and acknowledged
    that USPS was failing my constituents in Georgia. Mr. Zollars,
    you were on the board at the time that some of these changes
    were being planned. Why has USPS, as the PMG acknowledged,
    failed my constituents?
        Mr. Zollars. Yes. I was not there. I think the primary
    impact was the Atlanta consolidation. And I was not on the
    board when that was executed. I can tell you that we made some
    changes. We had a bit of a problem in Richmond. Backed off that
    one when I was on the board through conversations with the
    postmaster general.
        I can't speak specifically to what happened in the Atlanta
    consolidation. I'm aware that there were issues. That's
    obviously not where we want to be in terms of performance. We
    should be at 95 percent on time for all of our products. And so
    that's something that we would strive to try and get to in
    Georgia. I have family in Georgia, so.
        Senator Ossoff. Yes. But you are intimately aware of and
    were on the board when this Delivering for America plan, which
    included the consolidation to regional----
        Mr. Zollars. I was.
        Senator Ossoff [continuing]. Distribution centers was being
    planned.
        Mr. Zollars. That's correct. I do not think the problem was
    with----
        Senator Ossoff. Why has the implementation of that plan,
    based upon your extensive and deep knowledge of that plan and
    your role in developing it, why did it lead to what is
    undeniably abysmal failure to serve my constituents in Georgia?
        Mr. Zollars. We had, obviously, execution problems. I am
    not sure that the plan was necessarily the bigger part of the
    issue. I think more of it was execution. I do not really know
    the details about what went wrong with the execution, so I
    cannot really speak thoughtfully to that.
        Senator Ossoff. Serious execution problems. I sat in a room
    full of USPS executives at that Palmetto facility, and I asked
    a very simple question, ``Who was in charge of executing
    this?'' There was silence. No one was in charge of executing
    this. As you all know from your management experience, when no
    one is in charge and no one has primary responsibility for
    executing a challenging and complex task, it is unlikely to be
    done successfully. How is it possible, Mr. Zollars, that this
    organization failed to make one person responsible for the
    execution of something so complex?
        Mr. Zollars. I really cannot account for that.
        Senator Ossoff. Will you look into it, deeply, should you
    be confirmed and report back to me?
        Mr. Zollars. I certainly can. Yes.
        Senator Ossoff. Will all three of you commit that should I
    call you or request a meeting for information about the
    performance of USPS in Georgia that you will return my call
    within a day and meet with you within a week?
        Mr. Hartogensis. Yes.
        Ms. Demings. Yes, absolutely.
        Mr. Zollars. Sure.
        Senator Ossoff. The Postmaster General does not personally
    read the mail that I send him. Will you?
        Ms. Demings. Yes.
        Mr. Hartogensis. Yes, I will.
        Mr. Zollars. Of course.
        Senator Ossoff. Let's talk about data. There's been some
    apparent improvement since the postmaster general came under
    harsh and bipartisan pressure in Congress to improve USPS
    performance in Georgia. But I have some questions about the
    integrity of the data that USPS reports to the public and to
    Congress. Will you provide me, my office, and this Committee
    with any and all relevant information that will reveal how
    these numbers are crunched and what they mean?
        Mr. Zollars. True.
        Ms. Demings. Yes.
        Mr. Hartogensis. Yes.
        Senator Ossoff. I have no further questions, Mr. Chair.
        Chairman Peters. Thank you. Thank you to our nominees for
    joining us here today, and for your willingness to serve in
    these important positions. The nominees have filed responses to
    biographical\1\ as well as financial questionnaires.\2\ Without
    objection, this information will be made part of the hearing
    record\3\ with the exception of the financial data,\4\ which is
    on file and available for public inspection in the Committee
    offices.\5\
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
        \1\ The information on Ms. Demings appears in the Appendix on page
    34.
        \2\ The information on Mr. Zollars appears in the Appendix on page
    80.
        \3\ The information on Mr. Hartogensis appears in the Appendix on
    page 116.
        \4\ The information on Mr. Lake appears in the Appendix on page
    158.
        \5\ The information on Mr. Miranda appears in the Appendix on page
    182.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
        The hearing record will remain open until 12 p.m. tomorrow,
    November 15th for the submission of statements and questions
    for the record. This hearing is now adjourned.
        [Whereupon, at 12:25 p.m., the hearing was adjourned.]

                                A P P E N D I X

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