[Senate Hearing 118-409]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]





                                                        S. Hrg. 118-409

 THE STATE OF RURAL INFRASTRUCTURE: EMERGENCY RESPONSE, RECOVERY, AND 
                               RESILIENCE

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               before the

                            SUBCOMMITTEE ON
                      RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND ENERGY

                                 of the

                       COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE,
                        NUTRITION, AND FORESTRY

                          UNITED STATES SENATE

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                             SECOND SESSION

                               __________

                             July 10, 2024

                               __________

                       Printed for the use of the
           Committee on Agriculture, Nutrition, and Forestry









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           COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE, NUTRITION, AND FORESTRY


                 DEBBIE STABENOW, Michigan, Chairwoman
SHERROD BROWN, Ohio                  JOHN BOOZMAN, Arkansas
AMY KLOBUCHAR, Minnesota             MITCH McCONNELL, Kentucky
MICHAEL F. BENNET, Colorado          JOHN HOEVEN, North Dakota
KIRSTEN E. GILLIBRAND, New York      JONI ERNST, Iowa
TINA SMITH, Minnesota                CINDY HYDE-SMITH, Mississippi
RICHARD J. DURBIN, Illinois          ROGER MARSHALL, Kansas
CORY BOOKER, New Jersey              TOMMY TUBERVILLE, Alabama
BEN RAY LUJAN, New Mexico            MIKE BRAUN, Indiana
RAPHAEL WARNOCK, Georgia             CHARLES GRASSLEY, Iowa
PETER WELCH, Vermont                 JOHN THUNE, South Dakota
JOHN FETTERMAN, Pennsylvania         DEB FISCHER, Nebraska

                Eyang Garrison, Majority Staff Director
                 Chu-Yuan Hwang, Majority Chief Counsel
                    Jessica L. Williams, Chief Clerk
               Fitzhugh Elder IV, Minority Staff Director
                Caleb Crosswhite, Minority Chief Counsel
                              ----------                              

              Subcommittee on Rural Development and Energy

                     PETER WELCH, Vermont Chairman
AMY KLOBUCHAR, Minnesota             TOMMY TUBERVILLE, Alabama
MICHAEL F. BENNET, Colorado          JONI ERNST, Iowa
TINA SMITH, Minnesota                MIKE BRAUN, Indiana
RICHARD J. DURBIN, Illinois          CHARLES GRASSLEY, Iowa
BEN RAY LUJAN, New Mexico            DEB FISCHER, Nebraska




































                            C O N T E N T S

                              ----------                              

                        Wednesday, July 10, 2024

                                                                   Page

Subcommittee Hearing:

The State of Rural Infrastructure: Emergency Response, Recovery, 
  and Resilience.................................................     1

                              ----------                              

                    STATEMENTS PRESENTED BY SENATORS

Welch, Hon. Peter, U.S. Senator from the State of Vermont........     1
Tuberville, Hon. Tommy, U.S. Senator from the State of Alabama...     3

                               WITNESSES

Brady, Ted, Executive Director, Vermont League of Cities and 
  Towns, Williston, VT...........................................     6
Moore, Julie S., PE, Secretary, Agency of Natural Resources, 
  State of Vermont, Middlesex, VT................................     8
Paap, Hon. Kevin, County Commissioner, Blue Earth County, Garden 
  City, MN.......................................................    10
Bohlin, Mark D., General Manager, Perdido Bay Water, Sewer, and 
  Fire Protection District, Foley, AL............................    11
Kimbro, Brad, General Manager and CEO, Wiregrass Electric 
  Cooperative, Ashford, AL.......................................    13
                              ----------                              

                                APPENDIX

Prepared Statements:
    Brady, Ted...................................................    30
    Moore, Julie S...............................................    36
    Paap, Hon. Kevin.............................................    40
    Bohlin, Mark D...............................................    50
    Kimbro, Brad.................................................    98

Document(s) Submitted for the Record:
Welch, Hon. Peter:
    National Association of Counties.............................   106

Question and Answer:
Paap, Hon. Kevin:
    Written response to questions from Hon. Tommy Tuberville.....   114
    Written response to questions from Hon. Amy Klobuchar........   115
    Written response to questions from Hon. Mike Braun...........   117
Bohlin, Mark D.:
    Written response to questions from Hon. Tommy Tuberville.....   119
    Written response to questions from Hon. Mike Braun...........   123
Kimbro, Brad:
    Written response to questions from Hon. Tommy Tuberville.....   126
    Written response to questions from Hon. Mike Braun...........   127

 
 THE STATE OF RURAL INFRASTRUCTURE: EMERGENCY RESPONSE, RECOVERY, AND 
                               RESILIENCE

                              ----------                              


                        Wednesday, July 10, 2024

                                        U.S. Senate
    Subcommittee on Rural Development and Energy
          Committee on Agriculture, Nutrition, and Forestry
                                                    Washington, DC.
    The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:30 p.m., in 
room 328A, Russell Senate Office Building, Hon. Peter Welch, 
Chairman of the Subcommittee, presiding.
    Present: Senators Welch [presiding], Klobuchar, Bennet, 
Smith, Lujan, Tuberville, Boozman, Ernst, Braun, and Grassley.

 STATEMENT OF HON. PETER WELCH, U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF 
                            VERMONT

    Senator Welch. Good afternoon, everyone. I want to call 
this hearing of the U.S. Senate Subcommittee on Rural 
Development and Energy to order, and I want to thank my 
colleague, Senator Tuberville, Coach Tuberville. I also want to 
thank our Chair, Senator Stabenow, and our Ranking Member, 
Senator Boozman. It is all great to be here for a very, very 
important hearing, and we have got tremendous witnesses. We 
want to get to you ASAP. I do want to give an opening statement 
on this one-year anniversary of the devastating floods that we 
experienced in Vermont a year ago. Vermonters are still 
struggling to recover from them.
    It was a year ago, on July 10th and 11th, that we had the 
catastrophic flood. I want to acknowledge, by the way, the 
first responders, the medical professionals, the police, fire 
and rescue, National Guard, relief agencies, and neighbors who 
helped everyone in that moment of crisis. I want to take a 
moment to acknowledge the Vermonters who lost so much: their 
homes, their businesses, their farms, their communities. It is 
a really a traumatic experience that lingers and is a long-term 
struggle to get over.
    We are going to have more of these in Vermont. We know 
that. We are going to have more of these in the Nation. The 
weather is changing. We do not have to argue about how, but we 
cannot deny that that is happening. Texas is grappling with 
devastating effects of the hurricane.
    It does not matter what kind of disaster it is or what 
State you are in--Hawaii, Texas, Mississippi or Alabama--it is 
devastating to our towns. Those of us who represent rural 
communities, where there are no resources in place to address 
the long-term needs of their community, bet back on their feet, 
are especially vulnerable.
    You know, in Johnson, Vermont, the flooding destroyed the 
town's wastewater facility, with flood waters six feet high in 
the building. That facility is operating now, but at a higher 
energy and labor cost, and it is kind of rickety.
    In Montpelier, the State's capital, flood waters destroyed 
the Federal building, shut down our post office, and a number 
of our State buildings will not be back online probably until 
2025. We are still waiting for the post office to open, to be 
fully operational. Vermont, in our capital, we actually do not 
have a post office that is fully functional.
    Just two weeks ago, severe storms and deadly flooding hit 
Minnesota, and as someone who has been through what Minnesota 
is experiencing, I am delighted that Commissioner Paap is here. 
Senator Klobuchar and Senator Smith have been informing us 
about everything that is going on there, and we want to be 
helpful in any way we can.
    If there is one thing that these disasters have made clear 
it is that we need to put resilience and the capacity of local 
communities and States to essentially build back better so that 
when the next storm comes there is going to be a lot less 
damage, or maybe no damage at all if we do it right.
    We learned that in Vermont in 2011, when we had Tropical 
Storm Irene. It was the largest and most devastating storm that 
we had for about 80 years. We got into a big fight, to replace 
an eight-inch culvert when you need a 16-inch culvert. FEMA, at 
that time, would not let us build back better. We have been 
able to change that, and we have to do more of that, not just 
in Vermont but in every community, in Mississippi and in 
Vermont.
    Responding by incorporating resilience is just a practical 
and necessary step that we have to take. Last year, even though 
Brattleboro got four inches of rain, the town saw much less 
damage than it had in Irene, and that was because they had done 
some resilience work.
    Another thing is our small communities cannot do it on 
their own, and I am sure this is true in Mississippi. We have 
got local volunteers that are on the Select Board. They are 
also part of the road crew, or they are the disaster response 
coordinator, and this is in towns, you know, of 1,500 or 3,000 
people. They do not have any resources in place to be able to 
navigate the complexities of the Federal Government. One of the 
big things we are going to talk about today is how do we 
address that so those communities have the technical resources 
they need from a local area that is going to allow them to get 
what they are entitled to and what they need.
    That is a critical part of ensuring that disaster recovery 
will work and work effectively. U.S. Rural Development has been 
a great partner for us, and we are going to hear from Vermont 
about how we can coordinate and leverage both the local 
leadership and the work of the USDA.
    I want to express my gratitude to Chairwoman Stabenow who 
understands the importance of rural development programs and 
has included the largest mandatory funding ever proposed in 
farm bill history in the Rural Prosperity and Food Security 
Act. Good for her. It marks the first time that a farm proposal 
had included permanent funding for the Rural Development Title. 
Chairman Stabenow's Rural Prosperity and Food Security Act also 
includes new funding to invest in rural capacity building. We 
need that.
    We need to make sure that the Federal programs are spending 
money to help disaster victims, but not on administrative costs 
as much but more on actual relief. We had a situation in 
Vermont where there were two times the amount spent on 
administration than there was on relief. Obviously we want to 
turn that upside down, and that is where the local engagement 
is so essential. We need to act now.
    Thank you to the members in attendance today, and to the 
witnesses for making the trip. I look forward to a very 
productive, bipartisan hearing.
    I will now turn to Coach Tuberville for any opening 
comments he would like to make. Thank you, Coach.

STATEMENT OF HON. TOMMY TUBERVILLE, U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE 
                           OF ALABAMA

    Senator Tuberville. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for having 
this. This is well needed. Thanks to the witnesses for being 
here. It is going to be very informal. Obviously we do not have 
a lot of Senator here. There is a vote going on. They will be 
here soon. Actually both of us have to go vote and we will be 
in and out. Thanks to all the witnesses.
    You know, today's discussion is on a very important issue 
for my constituents in Alabama. We are on the Gulf, and we are 
obviously in the tornado fly away, as we call it, down South. 
We live in a very vulnerable area of need a lot of times.
    You know, the state of rural infrastructure during national 
disasters a lot of times is lacking, and we all know that. I 
still have farmers that are still struggling from a hurricane 
that we had five, six years ago, that have not gotten the need 
that they are supposed to have.
    Communities never expect to have this happen to them. When 
a tornado, hurricane, or flood unexpectedly strikes, they 
quickly have to figure out what to do and how to rebuild, 
usually on their own, a little bit from the county, city, 
State, and usually the last one to show up is Federal, and that 
needs to change.
    This is a topic all my colleagues should be able to agree 
on because it is not partisan. Access to affordable electric, 
water, and wastewater infrastructure is essential for survival 
in any place in the country now. Because there seems to be more 
and more, whether it is fires, whether it is floods, whether it 
is tornadoes. Of course, we all know we have hurricanes.
    Disaster resiliency, community safety, and rapid recovery 
are critical to all Americans impacted by natural disasters, 
but this is especially in the rural areas. Rural areas are 
usually the last ones to get any relief. Just this week, 
Hurricane Beryl has wreaked havoc across Texas and brought high 
winds and torrential rain to Arkansas, Missouri, and the 
Midwest.
    Alabama, my State, is all too familiar with natural 
disasters due to its proximity to the Gulf of Mexico, making 
the State more prone to tropical storms, hurricanes, and 
extreme weather. Over the past few years, Alabama has suffered 
through its fair share of natural disasters such as Hurricanes 
Michael, Ivan, Sally, and numerous tornadoes. Storms like these 
highlight the significant need to prioritize investments in 
rebuilding and hardening critical infrastructure that provide 
water and electricity, especially in the rural communities.
    Our rural communities often struggle. They often struggle 
to compete for Federal grants to help recovery efforts from 
natural disasters due to lack of full-time grant riders, 
attorneys, and experts who are able to identify available 
relief resources.
    Unfortunately, they are oftentimes ill-equipped to navigate 
the maze of bureaucracy and complex application process. On top 
of that, I routinely hear about work force challenges, in my 
State of Alabama and across the Nation.
    Our rural areas struggle, really struggle, to recruit and 
maintain qualified technical assistant experts, certified 
operators and technicians, placing them at a competitive 
disadvantage compared to their urban counterparts. Many 
certified water and electrical operators across the country are 
aging toward retirement without enough qualified applicants to 
backfill their positions.
    Considering the numerous challenges already faced in rural 
areas, the last thing we need is more burdensome government red 
tape, which seems to be more and more every year. As 
policymakers, we need to ensure applying entities should not 
have to wait an average of seven years to navigate the Federal 
permitting process of jumping through various environmental and 
climate hoops. States and local entities must, they must, have 
the flexibility to implement funding as they see fit.
    Just as each community is unique, so are natural disasters, 
which is why States and local entities must have the 
flexibility to implement funding as they see fit. A one-size-
fits-all approach does not work. We found that out. What works 
in one town or State may not work in another.
    We need to get the government out of the way and reduce 
regulations to make it easier for our rural communities to 
stand on their own. I look forward to today's witnesses and 
hearing their experiences and trying to find some solutions for 
the future for people that live in rural areas.
    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Senator Welch. Thank you, Senator Tuberville. I understand 
that Chairwoman Stabenow and Ranking Member Boozman will not be 
giving opening statements, so we will now move to introduce the 
witnesses.
    Ted Brady is the Executive Director of the Vermont League 
of Cities and Towns. He served here for many years for the 
Senator who is looking at us right now, from his picture on the 
wall, to maybe his C-SPAN view in Burlington, Vermont, and that 
is, of course, our wonderful friend and former colleague, 
Senator Leahy. Mr. Brady served as the Vermont State Director 
of USDA Rural Development, and as I mentioned a decade working 
for Senator Leahy. Welcome.
    Julie Moore serves as the Vermont Natural Resources 
Secretary in the Scott administration. She has worked to shape 
Vermont's environmental agenda, focusing on greenhouse gas 
mitigation and climate resilience, water quality, the forest 
economy, and the importance of conservation. She is a highly 
respected leader in Vermont, and we are delighted to have you.
    Senator Klobuchar wanted to be here but as Senator 
Tuberville mentioned she can't be, with the vote. Oh, she is on 
her way. You know, somehow she manages to get to the three 
different places she is supposed to be at once. It is another 
Klobuchar miracle, so I am going to wait so that she can 
introduce her wondaful Minnesotan.
    I am going to recognize you, Senator, because I understand 
you have got some reputable people here from your home State.
    Senator Tuberville. I would not go that far, reputable.
    [Laughter.]
    Senator Tuberville. Thank you, and we do have two good 
witnesses here from my State of Alabama. Mr. Mark Bohlin I am 
proud to introduce from Foley, Alabama, who serves as the 
General Manager of the Perdido Bay Water, Sewer, and Fire 
Protection District in Bowen County. Mr. Bohlin has served as 
general manager for the district for over 25 years. He is Grade 
4 water operator with the State of Alabama and a State-
certified electrician. In addition, Mark has served on the 
Alabama Rural Water Board of Directors since 2009, and is 
currently the association's president.
    Prior to joining the Perdido Bay District he served in 
several different technician, electrician, and operator roles 
across the country, including the United States Air Force. 
Thank you for your service. Thanks for being here today, Mark. 
Thank you.
    Keep going? Okay.
    Senator Welch. Go ahead.
    Senator Tuberville. Our next distinguished guest, Mr. Brad 
Kimbro, our next witness, from the Wiregrass in Ashford, 
Alabama. He is the General Manager and CEO of Wiregrass 
Electric Cooperative. Mr. Kimbro has three decades of 
experience--I know you don't look that old, but three decades--
in electric cooperative industry, and has been with Wiregrass 
Electric Co-op since 2006. Within the co-op he has served as 
Director of Member Services Chief Operating Officer, prior to 
assuming the General Manager position. He is actively involved 
with Alabama Rural Electric Cooperative Association and the 
National Association NRECA, and with numerous volunteer roles 
around the Wiregrass and southeast Alabama.
    Brad, thanks for being here today.
    Senator Welch. Senator Klobuchar is in the building, and 
almost here. Well, she is literally coming in. I think so.
    [Applause.]
    Senator Welch. There she is.
    Senator Klobuchar. Thanks for filibustering.
    [Laughter.]
    Senator Welch. Well, it is wonderful to have Senator 
Klobuchar join us, and she is going to take a minute but then 
is going to be----
    Senator Klobuchar. I am all ready.
    Senator Welch. You always are. I will let you introduce 
your witness. Thank you very much.
    Senator Klobuchar. All right. Well, thank you to the Chair 
and Ranking Member for this important hearing, and I am so 
honored to introduce my friend, Kevin Paap, because we like a 
lot of drama, you know. He is Chair of the Blue Earth County 
Board of Commissioners. If any of you saw that dam on national 
TV, the Rapidan Dam, that is in his county, in his district, 
and he has been on the front line making sure we are either 
going to get that repaired, get it replaced, it kind of looks 
like to me. It is just one example of the work and the 
challenges that we have.
    He is a county commissioner, a farmer, and a lifelong 
Minnesotan. He has used his skill in building partnerships to 
help solve difficult problems. He was first elected to his post 
in 2020, and he has been able to use his experience as a farmer 
and the former President of the Minnesota Farm Bureau, which he 
ran for 16 years, to really make the case on the local level 
about what we need to do to move ahead in rural America.
    He is a fourth-generation farmer. I have been to his farm, 
and with his neighbors. My favorite memory is one of his 
neighbors, who had watched Meet the Press for three weeks 
because I was coming over, so he felt that would prepare him 
for having a hamburger with me. He enjoys time with his family, 
his wife Julie, of 40 years, two grown sons, and two grandsons.
    We welcome Kevin Paap to the Committee. Thank you very 
much.
    Senator Welch. Thank you, Senator Klobuchar.
    I will now turn to Mr. Brady. You are recognized for five 
minutes.

 STATEMENT OF TED BRADY, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, VERMONT LEAGUE OF 
                CITIES AND TOWNS, WILLISTON, VT

    Mr. Brady. Thank you so much, Chairman Welch, Ranking 
Member Tuberville, and members of the Committee for having me 
here today, and more importantly, for bringing attention to and 
helping rural communities prepare for and respond to and be 
more resilient to future natural disasters.
    I am the Executive Director of the Vermont League of Cities 
and Towns, which is a municipal association that every one of 
your States has in it. We exist to serve and strengthen local 
government, to help them solve problems.
    As Vermont's own Calvin Coolidge said, ``Local self-
government is one of our most precious possessions. It is the 
greatest contributing factor to the stability, strength, 
liberty, and progress of the Nation.'' I urge Federal lawmakers 
to consider partnering with us in the Federal, State, and local 
partnership to try to solve this Nation's most vexing problems.
    Today I am asking you specifically, and asking Congress, to 
consider improving the way that it helps local governments 
invest in infrastructure, both physical and civic 
infrastructure, and specifically as it relates to natural 
disasters. The need for this capacity improvement escalated 
quickly one year ago today when we received as much as nine 
inches of rain, a full season's worth of rain in one day, which 
in Vermont we have these things called mountains that don't let 
the rain settle. It all comes rushing down into our valleys. 
The result was more than $200 million of FEMA public assistant 
eligible damage to municipal infrastructure, from roads to 
bridges to wastewater systems to town halls. Like in Minnesota, 
our stress on dams, as well.
    We have firsthand experience assessing those damages. We 
are an insurer. We provided $10 million of payouts to 
municipalities as a result of that. We see a huge problem as 
these events occur more and more often. About 15 percent of all 
the infrastructure we insure at VLCT, about $500 million sits 
in FEMA high-hazard flood zones, which will only grow as new 
FEMA maps come about.
    Hundreds of mayors, select board members, and others 
contacted us starting the moment the flooding started. At first 
they asked us for help accessing mutual aid from neighboring 
towns, called us for help looking for how to reach the 
Emergency Operations Center. In the days following the flood we 
became a central clearinghouse. Since then, we have answered 
hundreds of questions about FEMA public assistance eligibility, 
with a lot of questions about what kind of procurement policy 
do you need to qualify for FEMA, and perhaps more disturbingly, 
how much do we have to pay a consultant to do this FEMA work 
for us, because we can't handle it ourselves.
    While our Regional Planning Commissions, our Emergency 
Management Office are the primary players, VLCT has had to step 
in to help with capacity. The State of Vermont, USDA Rural 
Development, along with other have held disaster preparedness 
calls weekly and disaster recovery calls weekly. In these calls 
we have found that the fundamental thing that we need to do 
differently is that municipalities need to have a better grasp 
on municipal finance operations and management practices before 
the storm.
    You may know this, that wonderful thing called USDA Rural 
Development that you have jurisdiction over is one of the only 
Federal programs that provides capacity to rural communities. 
Through its Rural Community Development Initiative it provides 
technical assistance funding to spur community and economic 
development in rural places. All 20,000 cities, towns, and 
villages in Vermont, as well as tens of thousands of 
nonprofits, compete for a whopping $5 million in that program 
this year.
    Fortunately in Vermont, our USDA Rural Development Office 
was there for us after the disaster. They are not a primary 
response agency, but they are a support agency. They identified 
$1 million in the RD Disaster Assistance Fund that helped us 
enter into a cooperative agreement, where we are supporting 
municipalities with direct one-on-one technical assistance in 
times of need and to help them apply for Federal resources. 
This is flexible funding.
    There is an old saying in community and economic rural 
development, ``Once you've seen one rural community, you've 
seen one rural community.'' I don't think that can be better 
explained than the fact that Commissioner Paap and I are 
sharing this table. We don't have county government in Vermont. 
They have a very functioning county government in Minnesota. 
This difference is sometimes not articulated well in the 
policies that come out of Washington because it is so 
different, and that one-size-fits-all thing threatens effective 
disaster preparedness and recovery.
    This cooperative agreement has a long list of things in 
that we are doing at RD. I am happy to answer those questions. 
I have also submitted what we are doing in my full written 
testimony.
    Rural municipalities know how to work with RD. RD has staff 
in our communities that build trusting relationships. Using 
those relationships to prepare and respond to a disaster are 
really important. I have to put a plug in. Our RD Office is 
down 30 percent in staff.
    On behalf of every city, town, and village leader in 
Vermont, thank you for taking the time to consider how to make 
these programs work better for us, to prepare for and respond 
to disaster.

    [The prepared statement of Mr. Brady can be found on page 
30 in the appendix.]

    Senator Welch. Thank you, Mr. Brady. Now I recognize Ms. 
Moore.

 STATEMENT OF JULIE S. MOORE, PE, SECRETARY, AGENCY OF NATURAL 
           RESOURCES, STATE OF VERMONT, MIDDLESEX, VT

    Ms. Moore. Good afternoon and thank you, Chairman Welch, 
Ranking Member Tuberville, and the members of the Subcommittee. 
I am Julie Moore, the Secretary of Natural Resources for 
Vermont, and have served in this capacity for about eight years 
now. By training I am a civil engineer and registered 
professional engineer in Vermont, and I mention that because 
I'm going to talk a lot about water and wastewater 
infrastructure.
    I appreciate the opportunity to offer my perspective on 
these critical infrastructure needs facing Vermont's rural 
communities, which are being driven by concurrent challenges of 
aging systems, a shrinking user base, and the impacts of a 
changing climate. Today's hearing is particularly timely, as 
you alluded to Chairman Welch, in that one year ago today 
Vermont watched a storm system drop as much as nine inches of 
rain across the State, which caused massive flooding, hundreds 
of millions of dollars in damages, and impacted liberally 
thousands of homes and businesses, damaged municipal and State 
infrastructure, caused landslides, and compromised dams.
    While that widespread damage from the July 2023 storms 
attracted significant national attention, the fact of the 
matter is since 2010 Vermont has had 22 flood-related Federal 
disaster declarations, nearly two per year, and up from an 
average of one every other year throughout the 1960's, 1970's, 
and 1980's. Clearly, more frequent and more severe storms are 
our new normal, including today, with Vermont forecasts calling 
for multiple inches of rain as the remnants of Hurricane Beryl 
pass over the Green Mountains.
    I see the key to building resilience as consistent 
investment and municipal water infrastructure, and let me tell 
you why.
    First I think it is important to frame the issue and some 
of the challenges we are facing. Small rural States like 
Vermont are challenged to fund essential investments in water 
infrastructure without our Federal partners, especially in and 
immediately following natural disasters. For perspective, 
Vermont has 417 community water systems serving just about half 
our State's population, 300,000 Vermonters, but almost 75 
percent of those 417 systems serve a population of less than 
500 people. Most have volunteer boards with volunteer, part-
time operators. During the July 2023 storms, 18 systems, 
serving about 40,000 Vermonters, sustained significant impact 
to their drinking water infrastructure or operation that 
required Boil Water notices or Do Not Drink notices.
    The story was even more challenging the wastewater side. 
Vermont has 92 municipal wastewater facilities that serve 
mainly small rural communities. About two-thirds are permitted 
to treat less than 100,000 gallons a day, which I see as an 
indicator of the small rural population they serve. More than 
one-third of these facilities, 33 in total, sustained damage 
during last July's floods, totaling more than $75 million. 
Three facilities, including the one you mentioned, Chair Welch, 
in Johnson, will require extensive rebuilding and possibly even 
relocation. Unfortunately, most of these small utilities do not 
have capital available within their annual budget to make these 
kinds of significant, unanticipated repairs.
    While ultimately a significant share of the cost of the 
infrastructure repairs following a natural disaster is covered 
by insurance and FEMA reimbursement, there is an upfront cost 
to this work which can be substantial, and immediate cash-flow 
is critical, helping ensure communities make decisions around 
recovery and reinvestment based on what will serve them best in 
the long term, as opposed to being limited by what they can 
afford in the immediate.
    I saw this firsthand in the weeks following last July's 
floods. In speaking with leaders in some of the most flood-
ravaged communities, it was clear that they were leveraged to 
the hilt and had exhausted market-rate private capital 
available to them to make emergency repairs and restore 
services, limiting the resources needed to plan for how they 
can build back smarter.
    In response, I convened a Funder Summit involving my staff 
responsible for administering Vermont's State Revolving Fund 
programs, the Vermont Municipal Bond Bank, State Treasurer's 
Office, and USDA Rural Development. Over a period of weeks we 
cobbled together a complicated and tenuous funding stack to 
meet the same need that would be better addressed, I believe, 
through the Rural Recovery Act and the enhancements it would 
make to the Disaster Assistance Fund.
    I cannot overstate the importance of having available, 
flexible, low-cost or no-cost money that can be deployed 
quickly following a disaster. There simply isn't time to wait 
for Congress to designate and appropriate additional disaster-
related funds to support the work that needs to happen on the 
ground in those moments of need.
    Ideally, a robust Disaster Assistance Fund would include 
budget authority, provide flexibility around RD's water and 
environmental programs immediately following a disaster. 
Changes would also be helpful to increase RD's authority to 
issue waivers, to expedite funding to meet real-time needs and 
streamline procedures that can be extremely difficult for 
smaller communities.
    In closing, one of the most important collaborative 
relationships my agency has in the drinking water and 
wastewater space is with USDA Rural Development. Rural 
Development supports cost-effective investments in community 
infrastructure and partners with us on long-term disaster 
recovery. The Rural Recovery Act would establish and expand 
this essential partnership, helping ensure that immediate 
financial challenges following a disaster don't perpetuate 
vulnerabilities and increase long-term costs, but instead 
support our rural communities in developing and implementing 
considered and durable solutions in the wake of natural 
disasters.
    Thank you for your consideration.

    [The prepared statement of Ms. Moore can be found on page 
36 in the appendix.]

    Senator Welch. Thank you very much. I recognize Mr. Paap.
    I am going to have to go vote, and I am going to ask 
Senator Smith if she would chair in my absence. Thank you.

  STATEMENT OF THE HON. KEVIN PAAP, COUNTY COMMISSIONER, BLUE 
                 EARTH COUNTY, GARDEN CITY, MN

    Mr. Paap. Chairman Welch, Ranking Member Tuberville, and 
members of the Subcommittee, thank you for holding today's 
hearing. My name is Kevin Paap. I have represented the National 
Association of Counties.
    As a Blue Earth County Commissioner, fourth-generation 
farmer, emergency medical services instructor, past volunteer 
firefighter, and Minnesota Farm Bureau President, I have 
witnessed firsthand the impacts of natural disasters on rural 
communities. As a farmer, whether it is a fence or a farm bill, 
farm building, I think about four corner posts. Please consider 
these four corner posts in the county's role in disaster 
planning, response and recovery, in how Federal policy can 
building resiliency to natural disasters in rural America.
    The first corner post. Natural disasters have become more 
frequent, more severe, and more costly. Last year, 849 counties 
experienced at least one federally declared major disaster. 
Minnesota has not been immune to these trends. We have been 
impacted by seven separate billion-dollar disasters in 2023.
    Corner post No. 2. County governments are on the front line 
of disaster response and recovery. County governments are 
responsible for local emergency response, with county-elected 
officials and emergency managers leading these efforts. We also 
support the operation of hospitals, maintenance of public roads 
and bridges, and invest significant funds in building public 
infrastructure and maintaining and operating public works. To 
protect our investments, county must develop preventive plans 
to mitigate risk and determine how to respond when a disaster 
unfolds.
    Water and wastewater infrastructure are critically 
important, and particularly vulnerable during natural 
disasters. During the recent flooding in Blue Earth County, our 
county-owned Rapidan Dam infrastructure failed, causing 
significant damage to public and private property along the 
Blue Earth River. Thousands of aging rural infrastructure 
projects like our Rapidan Dam pose a threat to communities in 
future disasters without adequate support.
    Corner post No. 3. Natural disasters not only disrupt the 
lives and livelihoods of our residents but also put heavy 
burdens on rural counties. Rural counties are often hindered in 
our ability to manage emergency response and recovery efforts 
due to limited personnel and limited funding. These capacity 
challenges can lead to prolonged disruptions to infrastructure 
and services as well as extended recovery periods and economic 
loss for residents. Addressing these issues by building rural 
capacity through technical assistance or direct funding can 
help protect residents and promote long-term prosperity.
    Existing USDA Rural Development programs, such as the 
Community Facilities Program and the Emergency Water Assistance 
Grants Program are important for supporting rural communities 
during and after natural disasters. While these programs can be 
a lifeline for rural areas hit by disaster, consistent funding 
shortages at Rural Development mean that these programs may not 
be able to help as many communities as needed.
    Corner post No. 4. The farm bill provides a unique 
opportunity to improve rural disaster resilience. NACo urges 
the following provisions be included in the 2024 Farm Bill to 
bolster rural capacity building:
    The Rural Partnerships Program, which would provide 
flexible grants to rural communities to help them respond to a 
wide variety of urgent needs, including disaster preparedness. 
By improving the capacity of rural communities, the program can 
make sure rural counties are better equipped to protect 
residents from natural disasters.
    Permanent authorization for the Rural Partners Network. 
This USDA-led initiative places Federal employees in rural 
communities to improve collaboration with our Federal partners 
and help the local governments navigate Federal funding 
opportunities. Although it is a small program, it has managed 
to turn its $11.5 million budget into over $3 billion in 
Federal investments in participating rural communities since 
its creation in 2022.
    Passage of the streamlined Federal Grants Act. This bill 
would make it easier for local governments, including rural 
communities, to access Federal resources and grant 
opportunities by simplifying the Federal grant administration 
process.
    Chairman Welch and Ranking Member Tuberville, thank you for 
inviting me to share Blue Earth County's story. Counties look 
forward to working with you to build a stronger, more resilient 
rural America. I appreciate the opportunity to testify, and 
look forward to your questions.

    [The prepared statement of Mr. Paap can be found on page 40 
in the appendix.]

    Senator Smith. [Presiding.] Thank you very much, commission 
Paap, and we will now hear from Mr. Bohlin for five minutes.

   STATEMENT OF MARK D. BOHLIN, GENERAL MANAGER, PERDIDO BAY 
     WATER, SEWER, AND FIRE PROTECTION DISTRICT, FOLEY, AL

    Mr. Bohlin. Good afternoon, Chairman Welch, Ranking Member 
Tuberville, and members on the Committee. I am deeply honored 
to be here today. I would like to extend my personal gratitude 
to Senator Tuberville for his invitation and stalwart 
leadership for Alabama's rural water and wastewater sector.
    I am the General Manager of the Perdido Bay Water, Sewer, 
and Fire Protection District and serve as the President of the 
Alabama Rural Water Association, where I represent Baldwin, 
Mobile, and Washington counties, serving a population of over 
630,000 Alabamians.
    Perdido Bay is a nonprofit organization that was 
incorporated in 1973 to deliver drinking water to the 
communities of Lillian and Perdido Beach. We started with 600 
customers, with direct assistance from the Farmers Home 
Administration, the precursor of Rural Development.
    Fast forward almost 50 years and Perdido Bay continues to 
take advantage of the affordable low interest rates provided 
through Rural Development. If I may, I would like to express my 
gratitude to this Committee for its unwavering commitment to 
the success of these initiatives.
    There is sentiment that billions from the American Rescue 
Plan Act and the Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act will 
meet industry needs, but much of this funding benefits larger 
systems. The Alabama Department of Environmental Management has 
done great work supporting rural communities. However, this 
positive trend in Alabama is not seen nationwide. Predominantly 
rural States like Alabama benefit from a political landscape 
that directs more funds to rural areas.
    It is critical to emphasize that these additional funds are 
not permanent, and small and rural communities heavily depend 
on Rural Development to maintain and enhance their utilities 
and affordable services. According to the most recent EPA 
drinking water survey, a 20-year capital improvement assessment 
for both urban and rural communities totaled $625 billion in 
needs. Currently, we face challenges including PFAS treatment, 
cybersecurity upgrades, work force development, and compliance 
with Federal mandates like the Lead and Copper rule. Inflation 
and supply chain issues also heavily impact small water 
utilities.
    We urge the Committee to ensure USDA's Rural Development 
program has the resources needed to help rural communities 
address these challenges now and into the future.
    During my 25-year tenure serving as General Manager of my 
utility I have experienced numerous storms and two direct hits 
by Hurricanes Ivan and Sally. During Hurricane Ivan, we did not 
have resources and manpower to adequately respond. For 
Hurricane Sally, we relied on the direct assistance from ARWA 
to fill this void. In cooperation with National Rural Water 
Association and other State Rural Water Associations, Alabama 
Rural Water Association brought in emergency response trailers, 
generators, and manpower. They set up a command center at my 
utility where they coordinated with Alabama's Emergency 
Management Agency, deploying staff and resources to surrounding 
water and wastewater systems. Within a week, operations were 
restored to normal.
    For decades, NRWA and State Rural Water Associations have 
served as the leaders in disaster recovery in many States. 
Unfortunately, there has been no dedicated Federal funding to 
enhance or expand this activity beyond the limited assistance 
currently provided under the Circuit Rider Program. 
Preventative measure and post-disaster assistance are equally 
important. Having dedicated, onsite, and experienced full-time 
staff will greatly improve services for rural utilities.
    We are grateful that Congress responded with pending 
bipartisan legislation in both the House and Senate. The Rural 
Water Systems Disaster Preparedness and Assistance Act, if 
enacted, this approach will fund and authorize pre-and post-
disaster activities. This includes creating vulnerability 
assessment, disaster action and mitigation plans, geographic 
mapping and hardening facilities. Post-disaster support will 
help with applying for Federal and State funding and meeting 
reporting requirements necessary for reimbursement and other 
needs.
    After the devastating impact of Hurricanes Katrina and 
Rita, NRWA established a permanent standing Emergency Response 
Committee. This committee meets regularly to coordinate and 
review response efforts nationwide.
    In summary, I firmly believe that with additional Federal 
authorities, effective collaboration, thoughtful planning, and 
mutual aid, we can address the challenges of emergencies and 
enhance the response, recovery, and resilience of rural water 
and wastewater systems nationwide. Our State Rural Water 
Association stands ready to continue providing these services.
    Thank you for the opportunity to testify. I am ready to 
answer any questions you may have.

    [The prepared statement of Mr. Bohlin can be found on page 
50 in the appendix.]

    Senator Smith. Thank you, Mr. Bohlin. Now we will turn to 
Mr. Kimbro for five minutes of testimony. Thank you.

 STATEMENT OF BRAD KIMBRO, GENERAL MANAGER AND CEO, WIREGRASS 
               ELECTRIC COOPERATIVE, ASHFORD, AL

    Mr. Kimbro. Thank you. Chairman Welch, Ranking Member 
Tuberville, and members of the Subcommittee, thank you for the 
opportunity to testify today. On behalf of Wiregrass Electric's 
roughly 18,000 consumer members we sincerely appreciate the 
Committee's interest in natural disaster and rural 
infrastructure issues.
    Wiregrass Electric Cooperative (WEC), is a distribution 
electric cooperative in its 84 years of operations, providing 
affordable, reliable electricity to homes, farms, businesses in 
the Wiregrass region in southern Alabama. As a cooperative, we 
are member owned and controlled. The cost of running our 
electric utility is shouldered by our member owners.
    Electrification of the Wiregrass region was only possible 
because the Federal Government offered low-interest loans 
beginning in the 1930's. Fast forward to today, WEC continues 
to borrow money through the Rural Utility Service Electric Loan 
Program in order to keep the lights on, and at a price that 
families can afford.
    Roughly 25 percent of our consumer members struggle to pay 
their electric bill each money. Low-interest RUS electric loans 
help us keep costs affordable. Our job is to reliably deliver 
affordable electricity to our consumer members 24 hours a day, 
7 days a week. During thunderstorms, windstorms, floods, 
hurricanes, and other weather event we work hard to keep the 
lights on, and in the event of an outage, our mission is to 
safely restore service in the most timely fashion.
    In my 30 years in the electric utility cooperative industry 
I have witnessed and managed recovery efforts for over a dozen 
hurricanes and tropical storms. This includes powerful Category 
5 Hurricane Michael that hit our WEC service territory in 
October 2018. Hurricane Michael resulted in $8 million in 
additional costs for WEC. We were able to work through our 
already approved RUS workplan to respond and rebuild after this 
storm. Unfortunately, not every co-op can continue to work 
under their co-op's current RUS workplan after this type of 
storm events.
    To obtain a new RUS electric loan a co-op is responsible 
for submitting extensive paperwork and go through lengthy 
approval processes. For this reason, obtaining a new RUS 
electric infrastructure loan for rebuilding after these type 
storms is usually not a viable option. Instead, many electric 
cooperatives need quick financing after natural disasters, so 
they turn to a private lender or draw down an existing line of 
credit to pay for storm response and infrastructure repair. 
These loans come with higher interest rates often.
    While electric cooperatives are eligible for 75 percent 
reimbursement under FEMA's Public Assistance Program, our 
members, after Hurricane Michael, still had to absorb the 
remaining 25 percent, or around $2 million. Additionally, 
recouping the interest accrued on those loans or lines of 
credit just adds to the financial burden.
    Thankfully, which Hurricane Michael public assistance 
process was relatively smooth, that is not always the case for 
every cooperative. I am aware of other electric cooperatives 
still dealing with reimbursement issues related to Hurricane 
Michael. The same is true with other storms that hit the Gulf 
Coast in the last five years. The longer reimbursement takes, 
the higher the interest expense, which is ultimately passed on 
to the cooperative's consumer member.
    Also it is important to remember that responding to a 
disaster is not just about physical damage. These storms take 
an emotional toll. We are a co-op of around 60 employees. Our 
linemen perform dangerous work during these times, when their 
families' well-being and financial situations are uncertain. 
This impact is really difficult to measure.
    In closing, Wiregrass Electric is dedicated to delivering 
affordable, reliable electric service to Alabama households, 
businesses, farms, and our communities. Nearly 900 electric 
cooperatives across the country have similar community-focused 
missions for the areas they serve. As this Committee works on 
rural infrastructure issues, I look forward to continuing to 
work with you toward our shared goal of improving life in rural 
America.
    I am happy to answer any questions you all may have. Thank 
you.

    [The prepared statement of Mr. Kimbro can be found on page 
98 in the appendix.]

    Senator Smith. Thank you very much. Thanks for all your 
testimony.
    While the Chair is returning from voting we will begin our 
round of questioning, and I will start. Oh good, here is the 
Chair.
    I want to thank Senator Welch and also Ranking Member 
Tuberville for holding this hearing right now. As Commissioner 
Paap indicated, in June Minnesota was hit by very heavy rains. 
I know these also affected Iowa. Senator Ernst, I was talking 
with Senator Grassley about this, as well, heavy flooding. 
Senator Klobuchar and I led a delegation letter to the 
President asking for major disaster declaration. I know that 
the USDA has offered disaster assistance to Minnesota 
producers.
    The Federal response to helping Minnesota is at the top of 
my mind right now in the wake of these floods. As Commissioner 
Paap said, the Rapidan Dam, which is in Commissioner Paap's 
county, was breached during this heavy rainstorm, and 11.6 
cubic yards of sediment were released, overtaking a house and 
power infrastructure. It was really quite incredible. This was 
a 100-year-old dam and in need of repair, major repair, even 
before the flooding, that closed it in 2020.
    I think the story and the experience of Blue Earth County 
is a good story for us to be thinking about as we consider the 
burden that falls on counties as we are responding to these 
disasters all over the country.
    Commissioner Paap, let me just ask you a question about 
this. Can you just talk a bit more about why it is so important 
to help rural communities that might not have the staff power, 
rural communities and rural counties that might not have the 
staff power to go after Federal grants and resources in ways 
that much larger, better staffed, I would say, urban counties 
might have. What does that mean in terms of your resilience 
when it comes to these disasters?
    Mr. Paap. Madam Chair, thank you for that question. You 
learn a lot after a disaster. Thankfully, we do not have them 
every day so we do not become that well versed. There are many 
times, especially with smaller communities, smaller counties, 
local governments, you do not have the capacity, whether it is 
personnel, whether it is resources. Quite frankly, you do not 
know what you do not know.
    We need that help to do that, and not only is responding, 
certainly with the Rapidan Dam, our No. 1 goal was the safety 
and the health of our residents, and that is the No. 1 goal of 
all local governments.
    As we get through that and respond and go through the 
process we need assistance. We do not know what we do not know. 
We have maybe never done this before. Many counties do not have 
the expertise. They do not know what is available.
    I guess I would just ask that we all work together the best 
we can. You know, as a farmer you learn at an early age, from 
your dad or really probably from your grandpa, that working 
together works. I would just ask that whether it be the 
Federal, State, or the local governments we do as good a job as 
we can to work together.
    When a disaster strikes, the rest of the activities in the 
county do to come to a standstill.
    Senator Smith. That is right.
    Mr. Paap. We had county employees that went above and 
beyond, spent days and days onsite. There are still other 
things going on in that county that have to be covered. 
Certainly a thank-you to all of our Blue Earth County employees 
for the great job they did and all over the country.
    We really need some assistance because we do not know 
sometimes what is available or we do not have the resources to 
access that technical assistance.
    Senator Smith. Right. Well, thank you very much. I really 
appreciate your comments. I want to just point out, and then I 
am going to wrap up my questions, Mr. Chair, I want to point 
out that a propos what you are talking about, the farm bill 
framework and proposal that Chair Stabenow has put out includes 
the Rural Partnerships Program, which is this public-private 
partnership to help rural areas apply for and access Federal 
money. I think this is very important. I think this is a 
strength of the Chair's proposal over the House proposal, and I 
hope that we can keep that in mind as we think about what we 
can do to support rural communities as they are seeking Federal 
funds to help them do their jobs.
    Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
    Senator Welch. [Presiding.] Thank you. The Chair recognizes 
Senator Tuberville.
    Senator Tuberville. I would like to pass my time to Senator 
Ernst.
    Senator Welch. The Chair recognizes Senator Ernst.
    Senator Ernst. Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Ranking 
Member. I certainly appreciate it. I want to thank all of our 
witnesses for being here today, as well. Now more than ever, as 
you have seen, just disasters across the United States. I can 
say that your testimoneys, and, of course, the challenges that 
have been described are shared among many of my Iowa 
communities. Again, thank you so much.
    Just a couple of weeks ago, as Senator Smith had 
referenced, we saw a lot of flooding coming through the 
northwest corner of my State. We saw heavy rainfall that caused 
major flooding up and down the Missouri River. Of course, it 
did impact Minnesota. It impacted North Dakota, South Dakota, 
Nebraska, Iowa. In a matter of hours we saw hundreds and 
hundreds of families that had their homes destroyed. We saw 
helicopter rescues. We had boat rescues in communities. We had 
just so many small businesses that were in total ruin. The 
roads and bridges completely swept away. Water and electrical 
systems ceased operations, and, of course, Iowa, known for its 
crops, we had a significant amount of crop damage under feet of 
flowing water.
    Large portions of western Iowa saw similar destruction 
earlier this spring when we had tornadoes. Iowa seems to have 
been the epicenter this year for so many different events. We 
had a number of communities that saw 60 percent or more of 
their homes destroyed by tornadoes. Following each of these 
disasters I was able to go out and visit with our 
constituencies, the Iowans, and personally hear their 
testimoneys.
    In previous disasters, having served in the National Guard, 
had deployed to many of those types of events through the 
years, and we really are Iowa strong. I certainly saw the best 
of our communities.
    Anyway, Mr. Paap, thank you, and thanks for being here. I 
know that you have seen so many of these similar situations and 
a lot of swift response from those local emergency management 
teams. What I would like to do is just dive in a little bit 
different. You have mentioned access to resources, 
understanding where and how to go about getting those 
resources. Have any of the farmers that you have worked with 
faced challenges when they do go to the USDA or the Small 
Business Administration? Maybe walk me through gaining access 
to some of those larger Federal agencies.
    Mr. Paap. Mr. Chairman and Senator Ernst, thank you for 
that. As you look at agencies in agriculture, of our 128-year-
old family farm, probably the best relationship is always USDA 
because that is the agency that is used the most in agriculture 
every year, through farm programs or whatever it would be.
    As you broaden out to Rural Development and then into the 
other agencies you do not have that relationship, and many 
times, quite frankly, you do not have that local, that county 
FSA office where you know the folks there. Even if you do not 
know what you do not know, you know who to ask.
    As we get into disasters and other things and programs, 
sometimes people just aren't sure who the right person is, so 
that is why we really feel it is important to get that 
information out to those ag producers, and not just the farmers 
and ranchers but those rural communities that have been 
affected by that weather.
    I think agriculture, like everything else in life, we can 
always do better. We want to work on continuing improvement. I 
think there are many things we can improve on in that 
coordination. Really the key to coordination is communication, 
and we can always do better communicating with those rural 
residents.
    Senator Ernst. Yes, agreed. Then responsiveness, once you 
have found the go-to person, whether it is at the FSA or any 
other local agency, maybe even in your capital city, or 
responding here in Washington, DC, the response times, do you 
find that those Federal agencies get back to you in a 
reasonable amount of time?
    Mr. Paap. Well, serving on a local ambulance and fire 
department for 29 years, nobody ever said you got there too 
soon. You know, ``What took so long?'' I think that is the 
case, as well.
    I do think as we look at this process, whether it is 
applications, whether it is limiting the number of pages that 
are involved, or if it is response time how any days, we want 
to know what that timeline is. We know things cannot happen 
overnight, but when can we, or should we, expect an answer. 
Again, I would go back to continual improvement. I believe this 
process can and should be improved.
    Senator Ernst. Thank you, and thank you, Mr. Chair. I think 
Mr. Paap gets quote of the day. Thank you. Thanks to all of 
you.
    Senator Welch. Thank you, Senator Ernst. I want to 
recognize our Ranking Member. Thank you for all the great work 
you have done on this Committee and the support you have given 
me and Senator Tuberville on this Committee, as well.
    Senator Boozman. Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have got 
to run. I just want to thank you two. This is really what the 
Ag Committee is all about, and this hearing is excellent. You 
all have done a tremendous job.
    You know, we hear all about the rancor up here and the this 
and that, but this is just everybody working together, trying 
to figure out a solution to a really significant problem.
    Thank you for your testimonies. Very, very helpful, very 
incisive. I am going to get out of your way so you can actually 
get some good things done. I do want to compliment you two and 
your leadership, and example. I know it is hard with Senator 
Tuberville.
    [Laughter.]
    Senator Boozman. We appreciate you.
    Senator Welch. Thank you, Senator, and thank you, Senator 
Ernst. The Chair will recognize himself.
    Mr. Brady, what was the biggest challenge that the rural 
communities that you work with throughout Vermont face in 
identifying and applying for Federal Disaster Assistance funds, 
including the funds from USDA RD?
    Mr. Brady. Thanks for asking, Mr. Chairman. Simply put, it 
is capacity. In Vermont, of the 247 cities and towns and 
another 31 or so villages, less than half, about 40 percent, 
have professional career staff to help manage the town, which 
means the person writing the grant application is oftentimes a 
Select Board member who works in a garage, works on the farm, 
you name it. They are doing it after hours. That means 60 
percent of Vermont does not have professional capacity to deal 
with these things. When the Federal Government stands up a 
grant program that needs to be applied for, and you need to 
follow the rules to apply, then administer, and then follow the 
reporting requirements, you know, 60 percent of the time it 
does to work every time in Vermont. It is really overwhelming.
    A quick couple of stories. Marshfield, Vermont, population 
1,583. Last July's flooding resulted in $4 million worth of 
damages. Their budget is $1 million. Their annual budget is $1 
million. They do not have a career manager, which meant it was 
up to the elected town clerk, whose town has nothing to do with 
disaster management, to manage a disaster. She called us and 
said, ``I need to write an RFP. I need an engineer. I need a 
consultant. I don't know how to do this. None of my Select 
Board members know how to do this. Where do I go for help?''
    Down the road in Cabot, Vermont, the Governor yesterday was 
at a fire station that was destroyed, red-tagged by public 
safety after the July flooding. The chairman of that Select 
Board came to us and said, ``How do we afford to hire help? We 
don't have any money. Who is going to actually do all of this 
work for us?'' They had no capacity.
    The town of Weston, population 566, famous for the Weston 
Playhouse, a wonderful, bucolic, incredible little town in 
south central Vermont. They faced the fact that the Select 
Board, Jim Linville, called us and said, ``We are overwhelmed. 
We are a tiny town. Our volunteers are exhausted. We don't have 
any expertise. Who are the consultants we can work with?''
    Jamaica, Vermont, southern Vermont, population 1,030. The 
2023 floods resulted in $1.6 million in damage. That does not 
sound like a lot. You know what is a lot? That $1.6 million was 
in 77 different FEMA public worksheets. They have very little 
professional capacity in Jamaica.
    Senator Welch. Thank you, yes.
    Mr. Brady. Who is going to do those?
    Senator Welch. Thank you. Thank you very much. Those are 
very vivid and very real, and I have got to take the Ranking 
Member to some of those towns.
    I want to ask Ms. Moore, the last major flooding was during 
Hurricane Irene, I mean, preceding last year. We did some 
resilience work in that. I want you to just describe how those 
investments in resilience--not just building back the same 
built building back better, with the threat of another storm--
how did those investments help the State's infrastructure 
withstand flooding last year?
    Ms. Moore. I think they were critical. I want to highlight 
two specific examples of investments Vermont made following 
Tropical Storm Irene.
    The first was more generally in enhancing what we refer to 
as our codes and standards, and that governs the sizing of 
culverts and bridges as they are replaced around the State of 
Vermont. We modernized our codes and standards to reflect the 
kinds of rainfall patterns we are seeing in the 2020's as 
opposed to what we were seeing in the 1960's, which had been 
the rainfall data driving much of our design.
    As a result, structures that were replaced following 
Tropical Storm Irene, with appropriately sized structures for 
our current climate, only one was lost during the 2023 floods. 
The overall damage to our road and bridge infrastructure was 
significantly lower than it was. Some of that is a reflection 
of the type of storm we saw last July, but I think a lot of 
that is a reflection of changes we have made and how we size 
our infrastructure.
    The other one I would point to is our Waterbury State 
Office Complex. This is a building that houses over 1,000 State 
employees and was closed for literally six years following 
Tropical Storm Irene, when the Winooski River flooded the 
complex and frankly filled the basement of that building with 
water. We rebuilt, filling the basement with flowable fill, 
elevating all of the building's utilities. The Winooski River 
flooded again last July, but the damage was really limited to 
the parking lots, and that facility was reopened within two 
weeks' time. It is just such a night-and-day difference how 
strategic investments in hardening as well as resiliency can 
help us withstand a wider range of weather events.
    Senator Welch. That is very helpful. Based on your 
experience do you have some suggestions on what steps Congress 
can take to ensure that USDA RD resources help communities 
rebuild in the wake of disasters.
    Ms. Moore. Yes. I think, as I alluded to in my remarks, 
that immediate cash-flow is really important. It is very hard 
to go to the communities that Ted just described with his 
examples, in the throes of a disaster, and suggest what they 
really need to do with a planning study or an engineering 
assessment.
    RD has the technical know-how and capacity to support 
communities in thinking through what the best long-term 
decisions are, as well as the ability to bring contracted 
resources to bear that oftentimes these communities do not know 
where to start.
    It is a partnership, but just knowing where to turn with 
those important questions, being able to not just react in the 
moment but think for the long term, and having partners that 
stand ready and available to provide that kind of support in 
the moment is really essential.
    Senator Welch. Thank you very much. That is very helpful.
    I recognize Senator Tuberville.
    Senator Tuberville. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. Bohlin, work force is going to play a large role in the 
next few years, decades, especially in our rural areas. Now my 
understanding is you have an apprenticeship program in your 
water area. Could you tell us a little bit about that?
    Mr. Bohlin. Thank you for the question, Senator. As you 
mentioned, we are members of apprenticeship program that is 
provided through Alabama Rural Water that they have put 
together with the Labor Department.
    First off I would like to say, you were talking about the 
aging work force, I am one of them. I am getting to an age 
where I am looking at retirement. Our system currently, right 
now, has six certified operators. Of those six certified 
operators, four of us are at retirement age or quickly 
approaching. In fact, I have got one operator that is retiring 
this month.
    It is imperative that we can get young people involved, 
hired, in the system, and get them trained, provide the proper 
training. We have found out, by partnering with the Alabama 
Rural Water Association and the apprenticeship program, that 
they can provide an avenue that we can get our employees 
classroom time to get the education that they need in order to 
pass the certification, State certification, so that they can 
become licensed to operators. It is also hands-on, work under a 
mentor type program.
    I am proud to say that right now, we have got one employee 
that is in the apprenticeship program. He is fixing to finish 
it. He has already acquired his Alabama State certification. We 
have got another employee we are fixing to put in there. I 
would also like to mention that the employee that we have in 
the apprenticeship program right now that is finishing up will 
be the first graduate in the State of Alabama in the 
apprenticeship program.
    I feel that it is very important, Senator, that we look out 
for young people and try to bring them into the field and get 
them involved and that we have ways to get them educated, and 
also give them the tools that they need so that they can go out 
and make the taps, put in the services.
    Senator Tuberville. Do you have any recommendations for the 
farm bill that we are putting together for work force 
development?
    Mr. Bohlin. Yes, sir. As you know, the apprenticeship 
program was started with Rural Development funds back in 2018. 
Coming forward, anything that we can get in to help with the 
technical assistance and training that is in the farm bill, if 
we can get any more help in there I honestly believe that that 
would be of great benefit to us.
    Senator Tuberville. Mr. Kimbro, Do you have any work force 
development in your area?
    Mr. Kimbro. Yes, sir, Senator, we do. We work with our 
local and regional, State, to do that. Yes, sir, sure do. They 
are successful at it. You know, the success of businesses 
moving in is to have the people to employ, and that is very 
critical.
    Senator Tuberville. You know, most people don?t know where 
your region is in your part of Alabama. You are not actually on 
the Gulf, but you do see quite a bit of devastation from 
tornadoes to hurricanes as we saw a few years ago.
    Mr. Kimbro. Right.
    Senator Tuberville. You have huge problems with electric 
and water anytime that we have this devastation. Speak to the 
importance of being able to utilize all energy sources, like 
natural gas. Tell me about your experiences with that.
    Mr. Kimbro. Yes, sir. Well, as CEO of Wiregrass Electric 
Cooperative, I am concerned about reliability and 
affordability. They are both important. We would like to see an 
all approach, where one size does not fit all. We certainly 
depend on a lot of generation resources, and we need that 
capacity. Certainly, after these storms, the reliability is 
very, very critical, and having access to that affordability 
and reliability is critically important as we move forward in 
this country.
    Senator Tuberville. Yes, I would like to ask all of you 
this question, if you want to add in onto this. What problems 
do you see with smaller water systems as compared to larger 
water systems, Mr. Bohlin, we will start with you, in terms of 
getting funding. How do we fight that problem for rural areas?
    Mr. Bohlin. Thank you for the question, Senator. Going 
through the RD apply process can be very tedious and 
cumbersome. I have done it myself before, and it takes time. 
You have to provide engineering reports, as a lot of these 
other people have testified today. You have to fill out all 
their paperwork, get budgets together. They want 5-year capital 
improvement budgets, and they want your audited reports. There 
is a lot that goes into it, and fortunately we have got enough 
people at our system that I could do it myself and work through 
the process, along with our engineering firm.
    There are so many water systems throughout the State of 
Alabama that do not have the people and the resources to do 
that themselves, and there does need to be a vehicle where they 
can assist these smaller systems. That is one of the things 
that Alabama Rural Water does supply. They have people, and 
they have the resources. They can go out and they can call on 
these smaller systems if they have a need. If they reach out 
and they say, ``Hey, we want to apply for some Rural 
Development funds,'' they have got the people that can assist 
them and get these applications filled out and turned in.
    Senator Tuberville. Mr. Kimbro?
    Mr. Kimbro. Yes, sir, Senator. Infrastructure is so 
important--water, sewer, electricity, broadband, everything for 
our community. In rural America, which I represent, if you do 
not have those things then people are not coming, businesses 
are not coming, they are not providing jobs, they are not 
providing hope for quality of life for our rural America. It is 
majorly important.
    I would just say that the programs that are in place, like 
the Rural Utility Services Program, RUS, FEMA after natural 
disasters, those are really helpful programs that really help 
rural America not be left behind, and that is majorly 
important.
    Senator Tuberville. One more question if I could.
    Senator Welch. All you want.
    Senator Tuberville. All I want? Good. I want everybody to 
answer this. Manmade disasters, cyberattacks. Who wants to 
start? Have you had any problems with it? How did you overcome 
it? What do you see down the road to be able to stop it? Have 
at it. Go ahead.
    Mr. Bohlin. Yes, sir. Thank you for bringing up that 
subject. At our water system 10 years ago we ended up getting, 
I don't know, we think it came through email, but we ended up 
getting ransomware-ed. They locked all of our files up. We 
could not access any of our customer files. We could not get 
into any of our company files.
    Fortunately, this happened on a weekend, on a Friday, and 
it was a long weekend. I believe it was Labor Day weekend. We 
have an IT team that works with us. We were able to call them 
in. They were able to come in and take all of our servers 
offline. They stripped the hard drives and got everything off 
of it. They reinstalled the software. They put the data and 
everything back in from backups, to get us back up and running.
    It is a real threat. I am afraid that it is growing right 
now, and there are a lot of things that need to be done. I 
think that training and technical assistance in that area is 
greatly needed.
    It is scary when you are in a situation like that, you 
know. Fortunately I can say that none of our customers' 
information was compromised, or none of our company's 
information was compromised. It is scary because you do not 
know what is going to happen.
    The funny thing about it, when we were hacked and they got 
into our files, they never sent anything wanting a ransom. They 
just tied everything up. That's our experience.
    Senator Tuberville. Anybody else?
    Mr. Kimbro. Yes, Senator. We actually had a cyberattack hit 
our system July 3rd of 2021, and we were down 4 days, mostly 
without a precaution, just going through things, just making 
sure we did not bring it back up before we knew we were safe. 
It a real concern. Spent a lot of resources, human resources, 
dollars, of course. The bad guys get smarter, it seems, every 
day, and what worked today they figured out so you are 
constantly chasing that.
    It is a very big concern. In some cases it locks us down to 
where it is not as friendly to do business with us as we would 
like, like speaking credit card information over the phone you 
can't do because you are not PCI compliant in those regards. 
Our members, we want to make sure their information is 
protected, certainly their financial information, credit card 
information and so on and so forth. It is a major concern, and 
we spend a lot of resources looking at it. Literally, I hope 
and pray every day that nothing bad happens.
    Senator Tuberville. Any other experiences? Go ahead.
    Mr. Paap. From a NACo perspective, and it does not matter 
which one of the 3,069 counties, parishes, or boroughs we 
represent, I think we have to recognize with cybersecurity it 
is not a fair fight. You know, the bad guys only have to be 
right once to win. We have to be right every day, every hour to 
win. There are many of those local governments that do not have 
the resources, do not have the capacity to make sure that they 
are state-of-the-art, and continual improvement on 
cybersecurity.
    I think it is only going to get worse, and it is something 
we have got to recognize.
    Ms. Moore. I would just offer we have been digging into 
this in Vermont, as well. Frankly, one of the saving graces, if 
it can be considered that, that we have discovered, is many of 
our smallest State systems are not actually connected to the 
outside world, and that is their best form of prevention. I do 
not know that that is long-term sustainable, and certainly 
comes with other costs.
    We are starting from square one oftentimes for locals that 
are connected to the internet, with some sort of remote access. 
Oftentimes folks have not even set passwords. Thinking to the 
minds of the bad guys who are constantly advancing, and we are 
still at the stage where many of these systems have the default 
passwords remaining in there as the access point is a 
challenging set of circumstances.
    There is an enormous need for education, understanding, 
building that awareness. Vermont is challenged by the fact that 
we do not have county government, as Ted has spoken to--250-
plus municipal entities, 450-plus public water systems. 
Figuring out how to deliver those services in partnership with 
Vermont Rural Water is the direction we are headed.
    Senator Tuberville. Thank you.
    Mr. Brady. Thank you for asking. As the insurer for most of 
the State's water and sewer systems I can simply point to how 
hard it is to insure these things, and they are really 
uncovered. When these things do happen, oftentimes it is the 
town itself that needs to shoulder the burden, the system 
itself that needs to shoulder the burden, because that market 
is so hard because it is such a risk.
    Senator Tuberville. You cannot buy insurance for this?
    Mr. Brady. In Vermont you get a very minimal amount of 
coverage, not enough to restore the system in the worst-case 
scenario.
    Senator Tuberville. Interesting.
    Senator Welch. I want to just ask one question to the 
panel, and it is based on my observations of what happened to 
Vermont in Irene and a year ago.
    What I noticed, and this might be true in your communities 
as well, FEMA was really great right after the event. They 
showed up. They were responsive. They provided food, some 
temporary shelter, immediate cash, and that was combined with 
the extraordinary first responder response and neighbors in the 
community who all came out to help the folks whose home was 
flooded or business was under water.
    Then they leave, and they leave because they have another 
disaster--fire in Hawaii, Houston--and they have got to keep 
going. In the aftermath Vermont gets back on its feet, but if 
it is your home, if it is your farm, if it is your business, it 
is really tough, tough, tough. It is tough emotionally. It also 
really tough because then the folks who are coming to represent 
FEMA are not institutionally there. There are a lot of 
bureaucratic things, and this is where, Coach Tuberville, I 
really agree with the opening comments you made about the 
complexity of it.
    My view is that FEMA is just to set up for that long-term, 
follow-through situation. They have a principal job of that 
immediate disaster response. What I have seen in Vermont is 
that those local folks on the Select Board are totally engaged 
with their community on how do we fix this bridge. They are 
totally engaged with the fact that the grocery store in the 
small town needs to be reopened to help folks there.
    My view is that--and RD has been fantastic. The USDA has 
been that institution that has been the closest to the people. 
My view, and I want your reaction to this, is that we have got 
to redesign so that we drive down the resources to that local 
community where there are local people who are totally 
committed to the reconstruction as quickly, as efficiently, and 
as affordably as possible.
    It suggests to me, listening to Senator Tuberville, that 
this may be an area where we could provide some reform with the 
goal of empowering those local communities, where we have got 
the citizens who are invested in the follow-through and will 
answer the tough questions.
    Maybe just go down the line to get your reaction to that 
sort of outline of revised approach.
    Mr. Brady. Thank you for asking, Senator. What we find it 
seems long-term recovery approach really does put the recovery 
in the hands of local long-term recovery volunteers. It is 
imperfect, at best. To what you said before, projects do not 
get done in days or weeks or months when FEMA is there. 
Projects get done in years.
    I will give you an example. Londonderry, Vermont, down in 
south-central Vermont, got a FEMA mitigation grant post-Irene. 
Two weeks, three weeks, before the July 2023 flooding they 
finished that project, more than 10 years after the disaster. 
It was to raise a single residence house up out of the flood 
zone. That system does not seem to be working well.
    Killington, Vermont, paid off its last piece of disaster 
debt from Irene, which was 2011, the week before the 2023 
flooding. That system does not seem to be working, so we would 
embrace it.
    I think the Rural Recovery Act that you have proposed would 
be an incredible opportunity for changing the way we do 
disaster response and have RD more involved. I think the Rural 
Partnerships Program that Commissioner Paap mentioned is also 
important for getting ready ahead of time for disasters.
    Senator Welch. Thank you.
    Ms. Moore. Yes. I would echo, actually, some of the 
comments Ted made in his opening remarks about the importance 
of financial, operational, and managerial capacity in many of 
our small rural communities, and I think that is where part of 
this disconnect is. FEMA has a lot of opportunities, but they 
tend to be complex and application intensive. We have a lot of 
passion and commitment on the part of the volunteers and town 
clerks who would go after those resources. What is needed in 
between is technical assistance and expertise, and to my mind, 
that is where I see the Rural Recovery Act coming in. USDA RD 
has the ability to sort of work between, with a foot in each of 
those worlds, and help connect that vision that the community 
holds to how you actually build that project on the ground, and 
that is a gap right now.
    Senator Welch. Yes. Any others? Mr. Paap?
    Mr. Paap. I would add that sitting in this room in the Ag 
Committee and Agriculture we have got a lot of commodities that 
are raised I this country. The most precious commodity we all 
have is time. Whether it is during the disaster or the recovery 
process, time is critical. Anything we can do to help with that 
process, to help with that coordination, I think would be 
important.
    Senator Welch. Great. Thank you.
    Mr. Bohlin. Yes, sir. Thank you for the question. As far as 
FEMA goes, when Ivan came through they were great. They were 
there with boots on the ground. They had appraisers coming out, 
checking out properties, and trying to help get money and aid 
into the community. They gave us spreadsheets where we had to 
keep our force work, timesheets of employees and what they 
worked. They also provided funds to pay for equipment such as 
chainsaws and generators that we might need during the event, 
to get us up and going.
    When Sally hit, I called our local EMA and told them that 
we had some issues and needed to talk to FEMA. I never saw 
anybody.
    Once the crisis was over they came back and they funneled 
some money into Baldwin County, because what they are doing is 
they take money and they will give a county, an area, they will 
give them a lot of money. Then what we have is we have 
stakeholders, and us, as a water system, in Baldwin County, we 
are stakeholder in this group. If we want to get money to do 
something--and all of this money is hazard mitigation, it is 
not to repair or fix anything that has been damaged. It is do 
something for mitigation, which is fine. It's great. I think 
hazard mitigation is needed.
    It becomes competitive, and we have to compete with Foley, 
Robertsdale, Orange Beach, Gulf Shores, Fairhope, Daphne, to 
get these funds. As a system I have to submit an RFP back to 
this group of stakeholders. They review the projects that 
everybody has submitted, and then they pick which projects they 
want to fund or they would see funded.
    Now once you do that you still have to file your project 
with FEMA, and it has to be approved. I tried doing this and 
going through the process. We were wanting to build a safe 
house for our employees so that we could house them during a 
storm. I filled out all of the paperwork, submitted it to FEMA. 
I did not hear anything for over a year and a half. I finally 
get a call back from FEMA, and they want to know about our safe 
house project. I said, ``Well, I didn't think we got the money 
because we didn't hear anything from you.'' ``Oh, no, no. We 
just need you to update some paperwork.''
    They sent me the paperwork with what they need updated. I 
update this paperwork and I send it back to them, and I don't 
hear anything for another year. Then when I hear from them 
then, they have turned down the project.
    Now you have got to keep in mind, too, when things take 
this long the cost of what you are trying to do is going up. We 
had borrowed money from RD to build a safe house several years 
ago, and the pandemic hit, and then the supply chain issues 
hit, and the cost of a safe house was $450,000 and went to 
$850,000. By the time we worked through this process it was up 
to $1.4 million. It is just a long, drawn-out process.
    Senator Welch. Thank you. I do want to be brief. I just 
want to able to recognize, Senator Lujan has just come in, but 
go ahead.
    Mr. Kimbro. Yes, sir. Real brief. We are an at-cost 
provider, electrical cooperative. Our total utility plant is 
$140 million. If a Hurricane Michael came through and hit our 
service territory we could literally have a $40 to $50 million 
expense.
    FEMA is critically important for us. The only thing I would 
offer about FEMA is going forward the regulations surrounding 
it and the reimbursement, the process of that, just tell us 
what they are. Don't keep moving the goalposts. Have that where 
we can get that process known and understood and therefore 
applied for quickly.
    Senator Welch. Thank you very much. The Chair recognizes 
Senator Lujan.
    Senator Lujan. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and Ranking Member 
Tuberville. It is good to see both of you. Thank you for this 
important conversation.
    I am especially grateful for this discussion after what has 
been a difficult and devastating fire season and flooding 
season in New Mexico, just two years after we saw the largest 
fire in our State's history, a fire, by the way, that was 
started as a prescribed burn. Some folks did not see the need 
to look at it with infrared technology with the burn pile, and 
put a hand to it, and it was cool enough. Community after 
community was devastated and destroyed, not because of Mother 
Nature.
    Last month two fires that started on the Mescalero Apache 
reservation quickly grew out of control. Hotter and drier 
conditions from climate change along with high winds helped the 
fire spread and burn over 25,000 acres of land in the Village 
of Ruidoso and throughout southern New Mexico. A fire that 
started one afternoon, by that night the town was being 
evacuated, because it spread so quickly. It was so dry.
    A few weeks later we thought Mother Nature was going to 
help us, and she put down some water and some rain, but it was 
a little too much because of the burn scars. What the fire did 
not take out, the flood did.
    Hundreds of homes and buildings have been destroyed by the 
fires and by the flooding, but the impacts on rural 
infrastructure do not end there. The fire scar, the monsoons, 
the flash flooding, the debris flows, septics, in this area 
there is not a wastewater system. Families are on septics. 
Those get filled up and that contaminates everything. It gets 
into the water lagoons. We are talking about communities up in 
the mountains. Where our water comes from is if we are blessed 
with a little bit of now and it melts, and we are able to save 
it in some lake and some ponds, and we can filter it and we can 
get it to people to drink, that is how we survive back in New 
Mexico. All of that gets ruined.
    The costs can quickly become overwhelming, especially for 
small rural communities that have fewer resources and less 
capacity for resilience, finding and repairing damaged 
infrastructure, which I appreciate every one of the panelists 
today with your testimony.
    Mr. Chairman, while you may be on the East Coast, and 
Coach, you are down South, on the West side the smallest towns, 
it is hard. They do not have the revenue base, a tax base 
sometimes, to come up with the cost shares, to figure things 
out based on population.
    For whatever reason, you know, my ancestors and folks back 
in New Mexico saw it forthright to draw our counties large. You 
know, some of the Eastern States can fit inside some of our 
counties in New Mexico. When that happens, based on the current 
rules, if we do not hit the population density or the cost 
threshold, then it is not a national disaster. It is a State 
disaster.
    For all my friends in the Midwest, who the size of their 
counties is the size of ranches in New Mexico, they hit that 
density pretty quickly. For Western States--New Mexico, 
Wyoming, pick one--it is just not fair. It is not fair when we 
just look at a line that was drawn over a century ago by some 
folks that got together to throw some lines on a map based on 
who lived where, or they could see down that way, or there was 
a mountain here, or there was a creek that divided this place 
from that place, or it took that many days for you to get on 
horseback and ride through two towns, so that is where we are 
going to drop the marker, and that is where we are going to 
draw the county line.
    It does not apply today with the current rules that we have 
based on treating all American citizens equally. I certainly 
hope that when we look at a rewrite of FEMA, some of the 
legislation that you have been championing, Mr. Chairman, and 
our Ranking Member, Coach, that we even think about FEMA in a 
regional way across America.
    Fires in the West are not just fires. It is a day or two or 
a week or two of fire, and then it is a decade of flooding, 
because everything that was holding up that water, it is all 
gone. Any of you that have ever poured concrete, if you poured 
it on an incline or decline, and a little bit of water gets on 
top of it, you see how quick it runs and how it picks up steam? 
Think about that on a mountain, 13,000 feet, going down to 
7,000 feet pretty quickly. You think about the steam that that 
water picks up. It picks up trees that have fallen, and it 
turns them into torpedoes, and they go through people's homes. 
It is like an explosion, when a bomb goes off and there is 
shrapnel that sticks into stuff. The same thing happens with 
wood and to people's homes. It is just devastating.
    Mr. Chairman, I have used up all my time here. You know, 
community after community, the city of Las Vegas, which is in 
the heart of that fire that started with a prescribed burn, 
their water treatment center, we thought it was going to be 
okay after that fire a few years ago, with all the mitigation. 
Then some floods came in, destroyed the reservoir again. We are 
trying to get in there to help them. While that flood hit, two 
other communities, one by the name of Medanales, just north of 
the city of Espanola, beautiful little community, hardworking 
families, a little bit of debris came down in the river, even 
though it was not raining on this little town, pulled down a 
bunch of water and rock, stopped the river flow. The river 
picked it up itself, as it sometimes can do, went over a bank, 
and took out a town. Took out a community.
    The devastation was not large enough for that county. No 
Federal declaration. It takes all the Fed's approval to go into 
the river to take the dirt out. It takes an act of God to get 
their permission to be able to go do that without a Federal 
declaration.
    Mr. Chairman, I cannot thank you enough for having this 
conversation and bringing attention to what has been happening 
not just across Vermont and Alabama and all over America but in 
New Mexico. We need to find a way to work together, Democrats 
and Republicans. We are one big American family here, and I 
know we can do better to make sure that the smallest 
communities in America get the same benefit as the biggest 
cities across the beautiful country that we all home.
    Thanks for the time. I yield back.
    Senator Welch. No, thank you for that wonderful statement 
summarizing the collective commitment we all have and whether 
we are in a red State or a blue State, we love the citizens we 
represent. When they get hit, when they get hurt, we want to 
help. I have appreciated the support that Vermont has received 
from many of my Republican colleagues, and I want to 
reciprocate. I know Senator Lujan, you do as well.
    This is a great hearing. You know, I go back to Senator 
Tuberville's, oops, Coach Tuberville's comments about trying to 
have some flexibility in local implementation. It really makes 
sense. All of our communities, folks who live there, the 
biggest thing in their life is their community, and let's take 
advantage of that. I think with some of the legislation we have 
before us we might be able to get together, hopefully work 
together to improve the capacity of local people to fix their 
own disasters, with the help of the Federal Government, but 
with local leadership.
    I really want to thank all the witnesses. This is terrific. 
I mean, this is the way we should have hearings. The next step 
on this would be to propose concrete legislation that 
incorporates many of the recommendations that all of our 
witnesses, from the great State of Vermont, from the great 
State of Minnesota, and the great State of Alabama. You know, 
it is great to have folks on both sides of the Mason-Dixon Line 
here, speaking truth to the Senators. I look forward to 
continuing to work with all of my colleagues.
    I would like to submit a letter for the record, submitted 
by the National Association of Counties. Without objection, to 
do that.

    [The letter can be found on page 106 in the appendix.]

    Senator Welch. The record will remain open for five 
business days for members to submit additional questions or 
statements.
    This hearing, this very good hearing, is now adjourned.

    [Whereupon, at 4:03 p.m., the hearing was adjourned.]

      
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