[Senate Hearing 118-396]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
S. Hrg. 118-396
ESTENOZ NOMINATION
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HEARING
BEFORE THE
COMMITTEE ON
ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES
UNITED STATES SENATE
ONE HUNDRED EIGHTHEENTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
to
CONSIDER THE NOMINATION OF SHANNON A. ESTENOZ
TO BE DEPUTY SECRETARY OF THE INTERIOR
__________
JULY 10, 2024
__________
Printed for the use of the
Committee on Energy and Natural Resources
[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov
__________
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
56-490 WASHINGTON : 2025
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COMMITTEE ON ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES
JOE MANCHIN III, West Virginia, Chairman
RON WYDEN, Oregon JOHN BARRASSO, Wyoming
MARIA CANTWELL, Washington JAMES E. RISCH, Idaho
BERNARD SANDERS, Vermont MIKE LEE, Utah
MARTIN HEINRICH, New Mexico STEVE DAINES, Montana
MAZIE K. HIRONO, Hawaii LISA MURKOWSKI, Alaska
ANGUS S. KING, JR., Maine JOHN HOEVEN, North Dakota
CATHERINE CORTEZ MASTO, Nevada BILL CASSIDY, Louisiana
JOHN W. HICKENLOOPER, Colorado CINDY HYDE-SMITH, Mississippi
ALEX PADILLA, California JOSH HAWLEY, Missouri
Renae Black, Staff Director
Sam E. Fowler, Chief Counsel
Justin J. Memmott, Republican Staff Director
Patrick J. McCormick III, Republican Chief Counsel
C O N T E N T S
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OPENING STATEMENTS
Page
Manchin III, Hon. Joe, Chairman and a U.S. Senator from West
Virginia....................................................... 1
Barrasso, Hon. John, Ranking Member and a U.S. Senator from
Wyoming........................................................ 2
WITNESS
Estenoz, Shannon A., nominated to be Deputy Secretary of the U.S.
Department of the Interior..................................... 3
ALPHABETICAL LISTING AND APPENDIX MATERIAL SUBMITTED
Alaska Wilderness League et al.:
Statement for the Record..................................... 51
Barrasso, Hon. John:
Opening Statement............................................ 2
Estenoz, Shannon A.:
Opening Statement............................................ 3
Written Testimony............................................ 6
Responses to Questions for the Record........................ 36
Manchin III, Hon. Joe:
Opening Statement............................................ 1
ESTENOZ NOMINATION
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WEDNESDAY, JULY 10, 2024
U.S. Senate,
Committee on Energy and Natural Resources,
Washington, DC.
The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:00 a.m. in
Room SD-366, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Joe Manchin
III, Chairman of the Committee, presiding.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. JOE MANCHIN III,
U.S. SENATOR FROM WEST VIRGINIA
The Chairman. The Committee will come to order.
We meet today to consider the nomination of Shannon Estenoz
to be the Deputy Secretary of the Interior. Ms. Estenoz
currently serves as the Assistant Secretary for Fish and
Wildlife and Parks. She came before this Committee three years
ago when we considered her for her current position. I want to
welcome you back to the Committee. I want to thank you for
being here and for your service and for your willingness to
take on this important task, if confirmed. We also welcome any
members of your family, and if you would like to introduce
them, we would be happy for you to do that.
Ms. Estenoz. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I am very grateful to have my husband, Richard Grosso, with
me today.
The Chairman. Richard, it's good to be with you and thank
you for being here.
As Assistant Secretary for Fish and Wildlife and Parks for
the past three years, Ms. Estenoz, you had responsibility for
the nation's parks and wildlife refuges and the endangered
species program. As Deputy Secretary, your responsibilities
will expand greatly, as you know. The Department of the
Interior manages 20 percent of the nation's land, over 700
million acres of subsurface mineral rights, and over three
billion acres on the Outer Continental Shelf. These lands and
waters produce nearly 20 percent of the nation's energy,
including 43 percent of our coal, 27 percent of our oil, 14
percent of our natural gas, and two-thirds of our geothermal
energy and much of our wind, solar, and hydropower. In addition
to the parks and refuges that you oversee now, the Deputy
Secretary also shares responsibility for energy and mineral
production, dams and reservoirs and irrigation projects,
grazing and timber, insular areas, Indian tribes, abandoned
mine lands, and wildfires. The Department's mission is two-
prong, requiring both preservation and production,
conservation, and wise use. The Department does not have the
luxury to choose one mission over the other, it must fulfill
both and find the right balance between the two. As the
Department's chief operating officer, the Deputy Secretary of
the Interior must play a major role in striking the right
balance in keeping the Department on course for its mission.
You have spent the past three years overseeing two of the
Department's largest units, which together account for nearly a
third of the Department's budget. You are familiar with the
Department's mission and the issues facing it. In your current
job you have had a major hand in tackling the deferred
maintenance backlog in our national parks and wildlife refuges
pursuant to the Great American Outdoors Act, increasing access
to outdoor recreation for disadvantaged communities, cleaning
up orphan wells in the national parks, and working with the
Defense Department on endangered species recovery. You have a
reputation for being able to understand complex problems, for
being able to work collaboratively with others, for being
thoughtful and willing to listen, and for working across the
aisle, which I appreciate very much. While my colleagues across
the aisle have taken issue with much of what the Department has
done throughout this Administration, as I have also, both the
Committee and the full Senate were able to approve your
previous nomination without controversy on your own merits and
on voice votes. I look forward to hearing from you this morning
on your nomination to take on still greater responsibilities as
Deputy Secretary.
And now, I will turn to my friend and my Ranking Member,
Senator Barrasso.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. JOHN BARRASSO,
U.S. SENATOR FROM WYOMING
Senator Barrasso. Well, thanks, Mr. Chairman. Thanks for
holding today's hearing.
Ms. Estenoz, welcome back to the Committee. Congratulations
on your nomination to be Deputy Secretary of the Interior. Over
the last three years, you have served as the Assistant
Secretary for Fish and Wildlife and Parks. In that position you
oversaw the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service and the National
Park Service. These two agencies play a very significant role
in my home State of Wyoming, as you are well aware. During your
tenure, you have shown a willingness to listen and to learn.
You have demonstrated an ability to work across party lines,
and have made a sincere effort to find common ground on many
very difficult issues. I appreciate the collaborative approach
that you have taken as the Assistant Secretary.
We are here today to examine whether you should be
confirmed as the Deputy Secretary of the Interior. A person who
holds this position has a profound impact on the lives of the
people in Wyoming and the Rocky Mountain West. If confirmed,
one of your most important responsibilities will be to oversee
energy and mineral development on federal lands. We in Wyoming
are proud to be America's leading producer of coal, uranium,
trona, bentonite, helium, and proud to be a leading producer of
oil and natural gas. In Wyoming, most energy and mineral
production takes place on federal lands. In fact, almost 50
percent of Wyoming's land and almost 70 percent of Wyoming's
minerals are owned by the Federal Government. Energy and
mineral production is the engine of Wyoming's economy. In 2021,
oil and gas production alone contributed nearly $12 billion to
Wyoming's economy and supported 58,000 jobs in a state where
the population is only 500,000. For years, the State of Wyoming
has collected over a billion dollars annually in royalties and
taxes for energy production on federal lands. Wyoming uses this
revenue to fund K-12 public education and other essential
services. It is imperative that the Deputy Secretary
understands how the Department impacts the people of Wyoming
and the West.
For more than three years, Secretary Haaland has laid the
groundwork for my state's economic ruin. Absolutely, she has
done that. She has canceled two years' worth of oil and gas
leases. She has nearly tripled timelines for oil and gas
permits. She has put two million acres of existing oil and gas
leases on hold. She has raised the cost of operating on federal
lands by 20-fold. And she has even refused to deliver leases to
the winning bidders from the 2020 lease sales. It is now 2024.
That is the Secretary of the Department.
If that weren't enough, Secretary Haaland now wants to
prohibit coal leasing in the Powder River Basin. Last year, the
Powder River Basin supplied 45 percent of all coal mined in the
United States. It is the single richest source of affordable
and reliable energy in the country. The Secretary wants to shut
it down. It is an utterly reckless proposal by a completely
irresponsible and unfit Secretary of the Interior. Secretary
Haaland also wants to ban grazing, energy and mineral
development, and recreation on over two million acres of
federal land in Southwest Wyoming. That is an active proposal
by the Secretary of the Interior. These lands are not national
parks. They are not wildlife refuges. They are not wildlife
areas. These are lands that Congress has specifically set aside
for productive use, being attacked by the Secretary of the
Interior.
Time and again, Secretary Haaland has shown a contempt for
the law of these United States, she has shown a hostility
toward the people of Wyoming, and she has shown an indifference
to the energy and the mineral security of our nation. This
needs to end. Neither Wyoming nor America can afford another
four years of these destructive policies.
So I look forward to hearing from you today. More than
anything else, I want to know whether you are going to be a
voice of reason at the Department, and I hope you will be. I
want to know whether you are willing to exercise independent
judgment or whether we should just expect more of the same of
what we have gotten from this Administration and this Secretary
of the Interior.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Thank you, Senator.
Ms. Estenoz, we welcome you, your husband, and your staff.
We would like to hear from you now with your opening statement.
STATEMENT OF SHANNON A. ESTENOZ, NOMINATED TO BE DEPUTY
SECRETARY OF THE INTERIOR
Ms. Estenoz. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member
Barrasso, and members of the Committee. I am honored to appear
before you as President Biden's nominee for Deputy Secretary of
the Department of the Interior. I want to thank my husband,
Richard, for being here today. I would also like to say hello
to our sons, Nick and Spencer, to my mother, and to my friends
and extended family, who are watching this morning.
I was honored in 2021 to have been reported by voice vote
by this Committee, to have been reported 19 to 1 by the
Environment and Public Works Committee, and to have been--a
little over a month later--confirmed by the full Senate by
unanimous consent. It has been the greatest honor of my
professional career to serve in this role for almost three
years.
I am a fifth-generation Floridian, born, as were all of my
grandparents, in Key West, where I grew up on the water--
swimming, fishing, snorkeling, and boating. I, like my late
father, am a civil engineer. For the first ten years of my
life, his career took him--and us--to oil platforms off the
coast of Louisiana, the Tennessee Valley Authority in
Knoxville, the Army Corps of Engineers in Kansas City, and
finally, back home to Key West. I spent my own career in the
Everglades, wearing many hats, over many years, working on the
world's largest hydrologic ecosystem restoration program.
The vast majority of my 29-year career has been spent on
the ground in my big and complicated State of Florida. I have
been a stakeholder, a state water manager, an appointee of both
Democratic and Republican Governors of Florida, and for more
than seven years, the Director of Everglades Restoration at the
Department of the Interior. In my career, I have spent
thousands of hours--thousands of hours, as I know all of you
have--engaging on issues like these in community centers,
private kitchens, under live oak trees, at boat docks, and on
tree islands, because in a big, diverse state like Florida,
where most of the land is privately owned, and where ranching
and farming and mining are adjacent to huge metro areas, the
only way to get anything done is to talk to everyone--not
because you think you can get everyone to agree, but because
understanding diverse perspectives always drives better
decision-making.
Since 2021, as the Assistant Secretary, I have overseen two
of the Department's larger bureaus--the National Park Service
and the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service--as they steward the
nation's most iconic places and important history, work with
communities to protect and promote the recovery of imperiled
species, and to implement some of the most important
environmental laws enacted by Congress. I have also had the
pleasure of working with many of you on issues in your home
states and that affect national parks, wildlife refuges,
species, industries, resources, and livelihoods across the
country. To put Congress's landmark investments to work for the
benefit of the American people--the Great American Outdoors
Act, the Land and Water Conservation Fund, the Bipartisan
Infrastructure Law, and the Inflation Reduction Act--I have
worked with offices and bureaus within the Department and their
subject matter experts, scientists, resource managers, and
leaders, in addition to community stakeholders and
philanthropic sectors across the nation.
We marked the 50th anniversary of the Endangered Species
Act with a call to action to focus more partnership energy on
species recovery and listing prevention. We have downlisted or
delisted more than 30 species due to improvement or recovery.
We have strengthened existing partnerships and built new ones
so that today the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service counts the
Department of Defense and the National Alliance of Forest
Owners among its most valued partners in species recovery.
Having worked as a leader in the Department for almost 11
years, first as a career senior executive, and now as a policy
official, I understand the responsibilities of the Deputy
Secretary and the weight of the decisions that office must
make. In essence, the portfolio of the Deputy Secretary is the
portfolio of the Department. I have been on the front lines of
resource management for almost 30 years, delivering consensus-
based solutions to often very difficult problems. In that time,
I have learned that people in communities are more similar than
they are different, and without fail, every issue I have ever
worked on has first and foremost been a people and community
issue. At the Department, I know that there are many difficult
issues--a few very long running--and we continue to work our
way through them.
In 2021, I pledged to this Committee that as Assistant
Secretary I would use the tools that have served me best in my
career: communication, transparency, and intellectual honesty.
If I am confirmed as the next Deputy Secretary of the
Department of the Interior, I will continue to honor this
pledge.
Thank you for the opportunity to appear before you, and I
look forward to your questions. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
[The prepared statement of Ms. Estenoz follows:]
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
The Chairman. Thank you for your statement.
I skipped over a very important part of this hearing. I am
going to ask you three questions now for you to answer.
Will you be available to appear before this committee and
other congressional committees to represent the departmental
positions and respond to issues of concern to the Congress?
Ms. Estenoz. Yes.
The Chairman. Are you aware of any personal holdings,
investments, or interests that could constitute a conflict of
interest or create the appearance of such a conflict, should
you be confirmed and assume the office to which you have been
nominated by the President?
Ms. Estenoz. No.
The Chairman. Are you involved or do you have any assets
held in a blind trust?
Ms. Estenoz. No.
The Chairman. Thank you.
Now we will start our questions.
My first question is going to be, basically, on energy, and
this is the name of this Committee--Energy and Natural
Resources.
Ms. Estenoz. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Right now, we are pretty much independent, as
far as the United States of America. We are producing more
energy than ever in the history of our country. We are number
one in the world in production, and we have done that with an
all-in policy. My exasperation with the Administration is how
they are implementing some of the laws and rules that we passed
here, and we keep having to fight continuously. Companies have
been damaged and are suing, and they will win because the
Administration is outside of the window of the legislation--the
intent of the legislation. My thing is this--we have produced
more gas, oil, solar, storage, everything that we have done,
but we can't be independent unless we start mining our own
critical minerals, unless we are able to get leases on lands
where we have plentiful resources, where we should be
extracting as we transition. That is the hard problem that we
have here, and the Administration has not listened or has not
been willing to listen. The Ukraine war made it all so evident
that the United States of America must be the leader, and
should be the leader, and they are depending on it in the rest
of the world.
Do you believe it is in our best interest to improve our
energy independence?
Ms. Estenoz. Yes, I do, Mr. Chairman. American energy is
good. American energy independence is critical as we address
the climate crisis, and it is important as we address the
climate crisis and attempt to reduce greenhouse gas emissions.
It is important as we seek to secure affordability and
reliability for the American people, and it's important for our
national security.
The Chairman. Do you believe there should be a pause on any
of the federal leasing as far as lands for coal and gas and oil
and critical minerals?
Ms. Estenoz. Well, Senator, I think it's critically
important that, as you mentioned, as we pursue our transition
to a clean energy economy that we know that we are going to
continue oil and gas leasing. We know that, you know, according
to the Energy Information Agency, currently our consumption is
something like 83 percent non-renewable, and renewables are
increasing. And that is a good thing, and we need to continue
that, but we know that oil and gas and coal are going to be
part of our energy mix for some time to come. And it is really
this conversation about what is the mix and how do we conduct
the transition.
The Chairman. Do you feel comfortable speaking truth to
power to your superiors that you answer to when they are going
a different direction and you know it's not within the laws of
what should be done, the leasing that we should be doing and
handling and basically, we are not? We are fighting for every
lease we have offshore in the Gulf. We are fighting for every
lease onshore. I am sure you are going to hear from my friend
here pretty quickly about the unbelievable roadblocks that have
been put up. It makes no sense at all. So we need somebody that
will say, these are the facts, this is the law, we should be
following it.
Ms. Estenoz. So Senator, and I might repeat this a little
bit this morning.
The Chairman. That's okay.
Ms. Estenoz. But I recognize how important it will be for
me to earn the confidence and trust of--inside the
Administration--particularly on energy and public lands issues,
but also from the members of this Committee. And I will tell
you that in my 30-year career in Florida, I have never shied
away from sharing my opinion, but I know that being effective
in that regard means being a credible person and a thoughtful
person and a careful person about the knowledge that you are
imparting. And so, the short answer is yes, I think the
Administration, and I think all of you deserve me, if I am
confirmed as Deputy Secretary, to speak frankly and truthfully.
The Chairman. Well, we appreciate that. We all want you to
succeed. We really do.
Ms. Estenoz. Thank you.
The Chairman. We want you to be upfront and honest with us
too.
Ms. Estenoz. Thank you.
The Chairman. According to the Council on Environmental
Quality, from 2010 to 2018, Interior's environmental impact
statements averaged five years to get to a record of decision--
five years to just make a decision, which is absolutely
horrible. It's a problem for all types of energy, including
those this Administration wants to transition to. I will give
you an example. According to a 2023 study by Stanford
University, two-thirds of all solar projects requiring an
environmental impact statement are litigated, and half of all
renewable projects are canceled, more than any other type of
energy project. So it does not behoove anybody for an agency
not to be efficient in giving us some results quickly, giving
us some direction, and making sure that we can follow through.
Ms. Estenoz. Yes, so Senator, it's interesting, I have been
on both sides of NEPA. I have been, as I have Fish and Wildlife
Service----
The Chairman. Do you believe we need more permitting
reforms?
Ms. Estenoz. I'm sorry.
The Chairman. Do you believe permitting right now is
hindering all of us?
Ms. Estenoz. Well, what I would say is that I think there
is a lot to be done on permitting. So first, let me say about
the National Environmental Policy Act--it is a very important
body of law. We know that NEPA is an important part of making
sure that projects, you know, that we are able to initiate
projects and protect important resources in the process. But we
also know that NEPA takes longer, often, than any of us want it
to take or than it should take. So the Administration has
promulgated some new regulations with respect to NEPA. I think
this is particularly important as we try to deploy renewable
energy.
The Chairman. We had some NEPA reforms in our agreement on
finances and debt.
Ms. Estenoz. That's right.
The Chairman. But they have backtracked on that.
Ms. Estenoz. Well, Senator, I think my feeling about
permitting and NEPA--these are big topics. So I have been a
customer of permitting programs before. And I have spent a lot
of time talking to the regulated industry and folks who are
coming to us with permit requests. And I have sort of distilled
down what the pillars of customer service are when it comes to
permitting. And it feels to me like, you know, projects need
consistency, they need transparency, they need predictability,
and they need timeliness. And these pillars, if we can drive
our permitting toward these pillars of what I call customer
service and think about the permitted, the regulated community
as our customers, and then we can act and I am sure we will
talk----
The Chairman. That would be refreshing.
Ms. Estenoz. Yes.
The Chairman. I'm so sorry. I am going to have to cut you
short because I am way over my time.
Ms. Estenoz. I'm so sorry.
The Chairman. Oh, no, it's not your fault. It's my fault.
Ms. Estenoz. We will talk more about it, I am sure.
The Chairman. We will, I know that.
And I will turn to Senator Barrasso now.
Ms. Estenoz. Yes, sir. Sorry.
Senator Barrasso. Thanks, Mr. Chairman.
I wanted to start with something you talked about early in
your testimony--endangered species list, recovery, and
delisting. You know, the Greater Yellowstone ecosystem
population of grizzly bears----
Ms. Estenoz. Yes, sir.
Senator Barrasso [continuing]. Fully recovered for 20
years. I understand why they went on the list initially, down
to a hundred--now well over a thousand, spread way beyond the
area that people were hoping they would stay in that we knew
that they were not going to stay, as they continue to grow.
Grizzly bears are still listed as threatened under the ESA. The
number of bears is far greater than the number required for
delisting by the Fish and Wildlife Service.
Ms. Estenoz. Yes, sir.
Senator Barrasso. Wyoming has played an important role, as
a state, in leading this recovery. So as Assistant Secretary,
you will have the authority over Fish and Wildlife Services.
When can we expect the Service to delist the grizzly bear?
Ms. Estenoz. Thank you so much for this great question, and
if Mr. Daines joins us later, I think we will get it again.
[Laughter.]
Ms. Estenoz. It's such a good one. So first of all, let me
agree with you, Senator Barrasso, and congratulate Wyoming and
everyone who has been working on bears for all these years that
the Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem recovery management area
population has met its recovery criteria. You are absolutely
right. It has met and exceeded its recovery criteria. And that
is fantastic news, and it's not just Greater Yellowstone, by
the way, it's also the Northern Continental Divide that has met
its recovery criteria too. So what does that tell us? It tells
us bears are doing really well in important parts, and
particularly in Wyoming and Montana.
There is a petition before us. Wyoming has petitioned us to
delist the Greater Yellowstone. They have asked us to find the
population, a distinct population segment. And so that is the
sort of arcane part of the law that we are trying to work
through. Congress has asked us to use that designation
sparingly. And we are also looking at our delisting criteria.
So what I would say to you, Senator, is that with the ESA, the
question is delist, list--it's also the path you take to get to
that decision that matters when it comes to whether or not a
court will overturn it or not or sustain it. And so, it's
really the path that we are working through, the path that
Wyoming has asked us to follow.
So I appreciate the question. And what I want to say to you
is, regardless of the outcome of my nomination, I will continue
to work with Wyoming on that particular issue.
Senator Barrasso. Great.
In August of last year, the BLM issued a draft resource
management plan for the Rock Springs Field Office. This plan
would block or severely restrict access to over 3.5 million
acres of federal land in Southwest Wyoming. If finalized, the
plan would devastate the livelihoods of the people and the
communities in my state. The governor, congressional
delegation, state legislature, county commissioners--across the
board, everyone strongly opposes what the Secretary has come
out with. So far, the Department has done little to address any
of our concerns. If confirmed, what would you do differently?
Ms. Estenoz. Yes, so thank you, Senator. You are right,
it's a BLM RMP process, and I am not involved in those
processes, but I am very much aware of Rock Springs. I am very
much aware of the concern in Wyoming and the engagement in
Wyoming and how important it is. As a plan, it covers quite a
large area. You are absolutely right. I also understand and am
very grateful, just on behalf of the Department, for the
incredibly constructive input that folks in Wyoming have
provided, in particular. I am particularly grateful to the
Governor for his leadership in really facilitating that input.
I have heard both the Secretary and the BLM Director say to
this Committee that when the final plan comes out that we
expect that input to be reflected in that final plan. If I am
confirmed, Senator, depending on where the plan is, you know, I
would welcome--if you think it's important and if I am invited
to come to Wyoming and talk to folks about how they are feeling
about the plan.
Senator Barrasso. Well, we would love to have you.
Ms. Estenoz. Thank you.
Senator Barrasso. One final question. In May, the Bureau of
Land Management took steps to prohibit coal leasing in the
Powder River Basin. Last year, the Powder River Basin
represented about 45 percent of all the coal mined and used in
the United States. Ms. Stone-Manning has said that existing
leases will be able to meet our coal demand in the future. I
doubt that. She isn't capable of assessing our future coal
demand. I do not think she is capable of doing an objective
decision on this. Where do you stand on future leasing?
Ms. Estenoz. Thank you, Senator.
Yes, I am familiar with Powder River Basin--growing
increasingly familiar in preparation for this Committee
hearing. And yes, coal, even as demand for coal falls, it's
still part of the energy mix, particularly, almost exclusively
in the important sector of electricity generation, and I
understand that. If I am confirmed as Deputy Secretary, I would
seek to understand, at the appropriate level, the deepest
level, this argument about, sort of, you know----
Senator Barrasso. That is the question, you know, should
the Department end new leasing in the Powder River Basin?
Ms. Estenoz. Right and----
Senator Barrasso. Fundamental question.
Ms. Estenoz. Yes, well, so, you know, I think if I am
confirmed, I would need to understand the issue better,
Senator, particularly as it relates to the debate you have just
mentioned, which is that we have a lot of capacity in existing
leases, and whether or not we believe that existing capacity is
adequate. You disagree. I would, as the Deputy Secretary, I
would come to understand that debate better.
Senator Barrasso. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Ms. Estenoz. Thank you.
The Chairman. Yes, that is a tough one because we are
concerned about the Administration not following the law. The
land and resources belong to all of us.
Ms. Estenoz. Yes.
The Chairman. And we need that. And we need to have a
pathway forward. These are long-term propositions and
investments. People aren't making them now if they don't have
leases to go on. Mining operations can't start and stop like
any other.
Ms. Estenoz. Right.
The Chairman. They have to continue on. If not, you are
going to thwart them all.
With that, we turn to Senator Cortez Masto.
Senator Cortez Masto. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I am actually going to yield my place in the queue here to
my esteemed colleague from Colorado who has to preside
relatively quickly over the Senate.
The Chairman. That is very kind of you.
Senator Hickenlooper.
Senator Hickenlooper. I appreciate that. Thank you,
Senator.
The Chairman. You owe her now, you know that, don't you?
[Laughter.]
Senator Hickenlooper. I do, trust me. I am fully aware.
And Ms. Estenoz, thank you so much for your service. I want
the record to show that there are few people that work in the
Federal Government who I hear Republicans and Democrats both
praising, from the time when she was working at non-profits and
in her years of public service. So we are grateful for all your
public service and for taking on this new challenge.
Ms. Estenoz. Thank you, Senator.
Senator Hickenlooper. I want to talk a moment about water.
And it's hard to shift right to water because you talked about
the Yellowstone Basin area, where I did my research when I was
a geologist for my master's, and then the Powder River Basin,
which, of course, in politics in Wyoming is famous for
political opponents accusing each other of being just like the
Powder River--a mile wide and an inch deep. It's a famous
political jargon out there.
The Colorado River is at a critical point. After decades of
drought and aridification in the Basin, state and water
officials are working assiduously to envision long-term water
management for the river after the current operational
guidelines expire in 2026. You have a wealth of experience in
water management in your time in South Florida, particularly
with respect to the Everglades--that river of grass, as Marjory
Stoneman Douglas once put it. You are someone who knows rivers
and understands water and water management. You know how
important it is to rely on state and locally led solutions to
where the rubber meets the road for confronting these
challenges. When you look at the challenges we face in the
Colorado River Basin, how do you see the path forward? What is
your perspective?
Ms. Estenoz. Thank you, Senator. And let me first say how
proud I think all of us should be, everyone should be, for the
tremendous work to stave off a crisis in the Colorado River
Basin in the face of record drought. And the reason I credit
everyone is because, you know, the place that we find ourselves
in now was really the outcome of bringing everyone together--
the seven basin states, the tribes, and in particular, giving
the tribes a meaningful seat at the table to reach a consensus
in this interim period. And what I would say is, my outlook
post-2026 is really good because we have sort of demonstrated
to ourselves that we can do it and we have got the capacity
now, the developing of additional muscle memory for that. And I
think what we learned in Florida is that the only path forward
on water is a path we travel together. There is no other way to
manage water for the future than to bring everyone to the table
and to try to find a consensus way forward. That is my 30 years
of experience in water management. I feel particularly
fortunate that we have Commissioner Touton at the table. She
seems to me to have been a truly positive force in the Colorado
River.
So what I would say to you, even in my current position,
you know, I have some interest on the Colorado River in my
current portfolio, and what I would say is that I am very
optimistic for our post-2026 future.
Senator Hickenlooper. Well, I share your admiration of
Camille Touton. She has appeared here a couple times herself
and has done a remarkable job of both providing the leadership,
but also the technical background.
Ms. Estenoz. That's right.
Senator Hickenlooper. Which, I think, you bring the same
elements to the table.
Ms. Estenoz. Thank you.
Senator Hickenlooper. In Colorado, there's now an option to
add a state park pass. We call it the Keep Colorado Wild Pass--
right on your annual car registration when you re-register your
car. In the first year of using this model, the state has
secured over 1.5 million passholders, over $40 million in
revenue that goes directly to benefit parks, wildlife, search
and rescue efforts. It also demonstrates the appeal and the
demand for outdoor recreation in Colorado, where we are lucky
to have some of the best opportunities around, but recognizing
that these opportunities are literally all across the country,
as you know well. How is the Department of the Interior
collaborating with state agencies, including state offices of
outdoor recreation, to ensure continued innovation as the
demand for recreation on state and federal lands continues to
grow?
Ms. Estenoz. Thank you, Senator. It is such a good and
important question. I come from a state where we like to be
outside a lot and recreate, and I appreciate very much
Colorado's model. I had not heard about the state pass
associated with your car registration. The Department of the
Interior, one of our very important missions--both on our
public lands, our BLM lands, and their multi-use purposes and
then, of course, the National Park Service--is recreation.
That's why people come. In the Park Service, we are working on
a number of innovations, including apps that help folks plan
their trips, help folks understand ahead of time, trying to
think of ourselves as a recreation and tourism organization and
understand how people plan their visits to places like national
parks. They tend to plan ahead of time. It is kind of the
modern way we travel now. And so that is a big part of it.
We are trying very hard to encourage visitors to seek more
than just the top 50 visited parks and recognize that we have
recreational opportunities, not only in the rest of the park
system, but that often, parks, to your point, to visit a
national park, could also be to visit a beautiful state park or
a county park. And so, really partnering with local governments
and states to figure out how we can leverage each other's
recreational opportunities for the benefit of the American
public.
Senator Hickenlooper. That is exactly the right attitude.
Great, thank you. I yield back. Thank you so much.
Ms. Estenoz. Thank you, Senator.
The Chairman. Senator Cortez Masto.
Senator Cortez Masto. Thank you.
Assistant Secretary, welcome, great to see you. Thank you
for visiting with me in my office.
I am going to just get right to the heart of it. I
appreciate your comments so far. I think you have a great
reputation so far. I think this Committee is going to test it.
One thing that you should know is that for Westerners, we are
aligned on a lot of the issues, and the party politics stops at
the state line. We have a lot of issues in common. One of them
being this--and I am going to talk to you about it--most of the
land is owned by the Federal Government in the West.
Ms. Estenoz. Yes.
Senator Cortez Masto. In Nevada, it's over 80 percent. In
some of my counties, it's over 90 percent.
Ms. Estenoz. Right.
Senator Cortez Masto. So it requires a great partnership.
One of the things I have asked the Secretary and many working
with her, is to do just this--Nevada needs a statewide resource
plan.
Ms. Estenoz. Right.
Senator Cortez Masto. Working with the Federal Government
on how we are going to manage all those lands in conjunction
with the state needs, our local government needs, and our
private sector needs, as well as our conservation needs. The
challenge I have is, because you own so much of the land, we
are also getting all these federal rules coming through
requiring different things and nothing is working together. I
need a state resource plan. It will probably be the first ever
done by a state, but that is what I am looking for. So I am
hoping you are helping us get to that point that will help
people in my state manage, not just renewable energy, but so
many other things that we need to manage throughout the State
of Nevada, in conjunction with the partnership with the Federal
Government.
Are you willing to work with me?
Ms. Estenoz. Absolutely, Senator. I will tell you, in my
career, when I engage with community and with stakeholders, the
thing that is universally frustrating for them is inconsistency
in government, is when they feel like they are getting a run-
around or they feel like rules apply to this here, but then
they are different over here. And so, to the extent that we can
address some of that and fix it in a statewide plan,
absolutely, if I am confirmed as Deputy Secretary, I really
look forward to working with you and ensuring that, you know,
that we are working together.
Senator Cortez Masto. Thank you.
And let me mention, in Nevada, people don't even realize
this--there are 28 federally recognized tribes. And so part of
that conversation is bringing them in, making sure there is
tribal consultation and we are all working together, as the
stakeholders are all around the table, like you said. That is
what you have been so focused on throughout your career, and I
appreciate that.
Ms. Estenoz. Thank you.
Senator Cortez Masto. I am going to focus on a couple of
things that I need your help with in Nevada. When BLM Director
Tracy Stone-Manning was before our Committee last month, I
talked to her about how I recently pressed the Department of
Housing and Urban Development and the Department of the
Interior to update regulations that allow federal land in
Nevada to be eligible for affordable housing projects.
Affordable housing is necessary. In fact, the BLM Director
signed a new agreement last August to make eligible public
lands available for a $100 an acre, and that is far below the
fair market value for these lands. We urgently need you to be
at the top of this and pushing this and making this happen in
our state.
So I am hoping I can get your commitment to work with us to
make sure that we move forward in identifying this federal land
for affordable housing.
Ms. Estenoz. Senator, you are touching on an issue that is
at the front-of-mind for me in my current role, and if I am
confirmed as Deputy Secretary, I do commit to working with you
on this. Housing--employee housing, and affordable housing,
particularly, but our nexus to affordable housing, we see it
with our own employees, you know, who have a hard time
affording to live, you know, in these areas. So yes, Senator, I
look forward to working with you.
Senator Cortez Masto. Thank you.
I am going to ask for another commitment. Just recently we
have the Shoshone-Paiute Tribe of Duck Valley Reservation. They
are on the border of Nevada and Idaho. They are in both.
Ms. Estenoz. Yes.
Senator Cortez Masto. They have a school that they have had
for years that was on federal land that the BIA had access to
and control over. Over the years, we have discovered that the
BIA improperly disposed of fuels and pesticides on that land
and has contaminated it.
Ms. Estenoz. Okay.
Senator Cortez Masto. The State of Nevada has come in and
said we are going to move your school to protect our kids, but
there's no remediation by the Federal Government. I need your
help in making sure that happens. I have talked to the
Secretary about making sure that happens, making sure that we
get commitments. There have been commitments, but failed dates
of commitment happening. So I need somebody from the Federal
Government that is going to be a partner and I invite you to
come. I was just there for a high school graduation. I invite
you to come out to the reservation to see for yourself. So I
hope I can get that commitment from you.
Ms. Estenoz. Thank you, Senator. And yes, this is a new
issue for me, and if I am confirmed as Deputy Secretary, I
absolutely commit to working with you on it.
Senator Cortez Masto. And then, finally, again, we have a
community--Ash Meadows National Wildlife Refuge and Death
Valley National Park. You know it, Death Valley National Park,
I hope. So----
Ms. Estenoz. Yes.
Senator Cortez Masto. In Nye County, right? So I toured
this area. I know it well. I grew up in southern Nevada. There
is a challenge we have there that we are trying to protect this
land and the Devils Hole pupfish out of that area from any type
of mining and mineral drilling that is going to impact the
groundwater that our tribes rely on and that the local
community relies on. And so there has been a letter that I have
sent to Secretary Haaland requesting the Department to commence
a 20-year mineral withdrawal of sensitive areas in that area,
in that watershed. Everybody in my community, everybody in that
community supports this, from the county, to the tribes, to
everyone else. And so, I just need a commitment that you are
going to work with us to address and protect this sensitive
land.
Ms. Estenoz. Senator, I will commit to working with you and
understanding this issue better. Whether I am confirmed as
Deputy Secretary or not, this is something that is obviously in
my current portfolio, so I am happy to commit to learning more
and working with you.
Senator Cortez Masto. Thank you. Congratulations again.
Welcome to your husband and your family that is listening as
well.
Ms. Estenoz. Thank you.
Senator Cortez Masto. Thank you.
Ms. Estenoz. Thank you, Senator.
The Chairman. Thank you.
Senator Murkowski.
Senator Murkowski. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and good
morning, Ms. Estenoz.
Ms. Estenoz. Good morning.
Senator Murkowski. Welcome back to the Committee and thank
you for the time that you gave me and my team yesterday. I
appreciate that. It was a good opportunity to speak directly
with you about the many decisions, really the torrent of
decisions that we have seen out of the Department, which have
effectively restricted access and that simply prevent
development within the State of Alaska. These decisions have a
major impact on a state where more than 200 million acres of
land are managed by the Department of the Interior. They impact
our jobs. They impact our economy, really, our ability to
function as a state, both now and then into the future. But
really, of late, and it seems like things have just accelerated
the closer we get to an election time, but it seems like the
Department is acting more like an environmental activist rather
than a land manager, failing to recognize that we are a state
where people live there, we work there, we protect the land
there like nobody else can or will.
We have kind of reached the point where we dread Friday. We
dread Friday afternoon because that is when the Administration
has seemingly been dropping these decisions with no notice, and
that was something that you and I discussed yesterday. No
notice to the congressional delegation on issues that are
specific and unique to one state alone. So whether it was the
rejection of the Ambler project, keeping 28 million acres
locked down in public land orders, the PLOs, transforming our
petroleum reserve from a place for energy production to,
effectively, a de facto wilderness, or the looming evisceration
of the coastal plain oil and gas program that we expect later
this month. But you take into account all of these actions and
many more and it's not hard to see why so many Alaskans are
disappointed, they are frustrated, they are angry with the
Administration's policy. And the sense that we have and that I
hear directly from so many is that we are being treated like
one big park. Everybody wants to come and see Alaska, but they
want the jobs for Alaskans to basically be carrying the bags of
the tourists rather than good, honest, year-round jobs where we
are able to access our resources and provide, not only for the
benefit of our citizens, but of the country.
But we are losing. We are losing the access to our lands.
Instead of recognizing our very strong history of responsible
development, the Administration seems to hold it against us. I
think the Administration is rejecting some of our country's
best opportunities for access, whether it's for critical
minerals or other resources. And so we see this, and then on
the other hand, we see countries like Russia, like Iran, like
Venezuela, being almost rewarded, effectively, for abuse of
their resources. They look the other way when it comes to human
rights and environmental abuses. You look to Mozambique. You
look to Congo. You look to China. And so we have just got this
contrast that just makes no sense to the average Alaskan. And a
point that I shared with you and I feel really strongly about--
the Department is not keeping their commitment to us, but they
are also not keeping their commitment to the law. They are just
not keeping the commitment to the law. The latest example being
the process to lift PLO 5150. That was abruptly canceled. We
are not trusting Interior to follow the law when it comes to
consultation with Alaska Natives or the State of Alaska in
making these decisions.
So you are in a tough spot here. I grant you that. It is
the Administration's policies that I think have kind of stacked
the deck against you as a nominee. And I understand that, but I
also need you to understand where Alaskans are coming from when
they look at this Administration, when they look at the
Department of the Interior and they see how this heavy hand is
coming down on us. So I have got one question for you, and I
need you to know that I can't vote to confirm you if I get the
sense that you think everything is going okay in Alaska and
that you would just simply continue the Department's--just the
continuation of the heavy handedness coming out of the
Department that is effectively shutting down the state.
So the question to you is, why should I support your
nomination?
Ms. Estenoz. Senator, first of all, let me thank you for
the time you gave me yesterday.
Senator Murkowski. I appreciated it too, I really did.
Ms. Estenoz. I really was so grateful, not only for the
time, but for the frankness, which is continuing now, which I
actually appreciate so much. I went home last night. I thought
about our conversation throughout the night. I woke up in the
middle of the night, I thought about our conversation some
more. And that is the kind of frank conversation that I really
appreciate.
So what we talked about yesterday, and what I said earlier
right before you came into the room, is that I know that I will
have to earn both the trust and confidence of everyone both
inside the Administration and on this dais. And all I can bring
to this conversation today, and all I can say to you today, all
I can do is compare myself to myself, which is to my 30-year
career and the way that I have worked until this point. We have
worked with you in my current portfolio, and we talked a little
bit about it yesterday. I feel like we have tried very, very
hard to go to Alaska, and you know, I have been to Alaska in
this job, and I went, specifically, to listen. And we have
tried to do that. We have tried to think transformatively. I
have spent a lot of times, as I mentioned to you yesterday, I
began during the presidential transition, even before I was in
this job, learning about Alaska, trying to understand Alaska
because it is so--it is such a different place. It's such a
special place. I mean, just the statutory framework is
completely different.
And as I mentioned to you, Senator Sullivan said to me
early on, you need to take ANILCA training, and, by golly, I
took ANILCA training. And he was right. So what I want you to
know is that--and I will say this a couple more times--is that,
you know, my career is what it's been, but my personal life is
also a factor here. You know, I know, because I was part of an
energy-dependent family. My father was in the energy industry
when we lived in Louisiana. We were a young family and our
income depended on, you know, on oil and gas in the Gulf. So I
understand that, as I said in my opening statement, that every
issue we work on, whether it's a species issue or an energy
issue, it's really a people issue. And that is what I would
bring to the Deputy Secretary's job.
I know that I--my resume, you know--I have not worked in
energy and public lands, but I know the Department really well.
I have been a senior leader at the Department for 11 years. I
know how it works. In my current portfolio I have intersected
with energy, I have intersected with public lands. And I have a
strong leadership style, Senator, that is--it's a combination.
The engineer in me drives me toward knowledge, data,
understanding issues very, very well, and very deeply so that
my decisions can be thoughtful. The personality part of me is
that my leadership is relationship-based. That means having a
strong relationship with you and with your team and with the
Alaska delegation. That is what I can assure you that I will
bring to the Deputy Secretary job because I do not have any
other way to work. I don't know any other way to work.
The Chairman. Thank you.
Ms. Estenoz. That's my answer.
Senator Murkowski. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Ms. Estenoz, I think what we are trying to
tell you is that we believe that government should be our
partner.
Ms. Estenoz. Yes.
The Chairman. Not our provider and not our decider, which
is what they have decided to do, and that is why some of us who
come from energy-rich states, which basically fuel this
country, feel like we are getting left behind, we are basically
not needed anymore, and none of them seem to understand. So
what we are asking for is that partnership when you come into
this position.
So with that, we will go right to Senator King.
Senator King. I note the Senator from the grizzly bears is
at the dais, welcome.
The Chairman. You're ready. You're all teed up for grizzly
bears.
Senator King. We will be disappointed if we don't learn
something about grizzly bears.
Mr. Chairman, I want to address Senator Murkowski's
question and hopefully make you feel better about this nominee
based upon personal experience. About a year and a half ago,
the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service proposed a large wildlife
refuge area in western Maine. It happens to be an area of the
state that is of incredible scenic and recreational value. It
also is an area that has had tremendous local conservation
efforts. The communities and the private sector have done
enormous amounts of conservation, setting land aside. The
communities contacted this nominee. I contacted her, as did
others in the delegation. And she listened. And she listened to
the communities and she listened to their concerns and she
weighed the facts and made a decision that this area did not
need a wildlife refuge because it was already, in many ways, in
a protected status. That's what I look for in a person in a
position like this, someone who will pay attention to local
concerns and listen. So I wanted to thank you for that and I
think it speaks well of your approach and I think the Chairman
put it well, we should be partners here, not adversaries, and
we should try to find solutions to problems that are mutually
beneficial.
A couple of other points. Five-year EISs. That should be
history.
Ms. Estenoz. Yes.
Senator King. And I never want to hear about a five-year
EIS. This Committee has heard me say this numerous times. A
month ago, we had the anniversary of D-Day. Eisenhower retook
Europe in 11 months. To me, that is the standard for how long
things should take. And a five-year EIS is just a disservice to
the process and to the citizens of the country.
Secondly, on the issue of permitting--we need permitting
reform and the expediting of permitting in order to achieve a
clean energy future. We are going to have to expand the grid
substantially because of new demands of electrification in our
society, and we can't hold up important, meaningful
transmission projects or mining of critical minerals to supply
EV batteries with a cumbersome, slow war of attrition in
permitting. So I think we need to be--we have always thought of
permitting as a, you know, as a sort of stopping process. We
have to see it differently now. There may be environmental
detriment, but there may be enormous environmental benefit, and
I think that has to be part of the calculation.
Finally, I am worried about deferred maintenance on our
public lands and our parks. Four years ago, we passed the Great
American Outdoors Act. It was virtually unanimously supported
by this Committee--historic legislation to pay down the backlog
of maintenance. But the problem is the Department and the
Administration are not funding maintenance adequately, and we
are digging the hole again. Can you commit to me that you will
advocate for adequate funding for maintenance of our national
parks and public lands? It's sort of a mundane subject, but we
are not going to be able to pass a Great American Outdoors Act
every five years and convince our colleagues that this is
necessary when, in fact, the system is somehow expecting it,
and therefore not providing the maintenance on an annual basis
that is necessary. So talk to me about that issue.
Ms. Estenoz. Yes, thank you, Senator. And let me just
first, just say thank you very much. It was a pleasure to work
with you on the proposed refuge, and I am really glad we got to
a great place, and I am grateful that you picked up the phone
and called me and we were able to work together.
Senator King. Which I will continue to do, I assure you.
Ms. Estenoz. Please do. I am sure you will, and I welcome
it.
And because both Senator Manchin and you mentioned the word
partnership, I appreciate that word very much. The entire time
that I have been at Interior, this approach as partner, and in
my case, it has been states, tribes, local governments, and
stakeholder groups--very well-organized stakeholder groups. And
as I said earlier in my remarks, I have found the only way
really to advance policy is to come at it in partnership.
On deferred maintenance, I could not agree with you more,
Senator. And what I would say is if--I would love to work with
you on how we can best--we can do better communicating our
needs. Cyclic maintenance is what we call the annual
maintenance. There is no question that inadequate cyclic
maintenance digs the deferred maintenance hole deeper, and we
don't want that. Deferred maintenance is all about catching up.
And so----
Senator King. By the way, deferred maintenance is a debt.
Ms. Estenoz. Yes, right, right.
Senator King. It's going to have to be paid eventually, and
usually it will be more expensive than if we did it now.
Ms. Estenoz. That is a great way to describe it. And so, I
commit to working with you, and I welcome working with you and
others who are concerned about deferred maintenance, you know,
on not only advocating for additional resources, but is there
something we can do better about communicating the need that we
think would be persuasive on this point of, as you say, this
kind of dull, not super-exciting, but incredibly important
issue of maintenance.
Senator King. Thank you.
Ms. Estenoz. Thank you.
Senator King. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Thank you, Senator.
And now we have Senator Daines.
Senator Daines. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I want to thank my co-chair of the National Parks
Subcommittee. Angus and I keep the National Parks Subcommittee.
We call ourselves co-chairs. No matter who is in majority
control, we are co-chairs, and that is the way we will continue
to operate that as long as we are both on that Committee. So
Angus, thank you.
Thanks for your service, Assistant Secretary Estenoz, and
congratulations on your nomination to be the number two over
there at DOI.
Ms. Estenoz. Thank you.
Senator Daines. I look forward to hearing more today about
how you think about managing there, should you be confirmed. I
will tell you, last night, I was going back and forth with Cam
Sholly, Yellowstone National Park. He was grateful for your
outreach to him. Angus, the co-chair of the Parks Committee,
should know that because of the fast action of the rangers at
Yellowstone National Park, acting on some credible
intelligence, they prevented what could have been a mass
casualty event over the Fourth of July holidays. They
confronted a shooter and they killed him. One ranger was
wounded. Thankfully, he's going to be okay, but had surgery.
But I know Cam was grateful for your outreach to him----
Ms. Estenoz. Thank you.
Senator Daines [continuing]. During the time, and not only
what happened in Yellowstone Park over the Fourth of July
holidays but also with the housing issues there, with the flood
that we dealt with, and I know Cam is grateful for your
outreach and your support, and I am too. Thank you.
Ms. Estenoz. Thank you, Senator. Thank you.
Senator Daines. I want to talk about the St. Mary site. You
thought I would talk grizzly bears right out of the gate. I
will get to grizzly bears here, but I want to talk about the
St. Mary siphon failure.
Ms. Estenoz. Yes.
Senator Daines. This includes the Bureau of Reclamation in
terms of what we need to do to recover. It's currently working
to address the catastrophic failure. We had two siphons from
the St. Mary River, which provide water, essentially irrigators
at Montana's Hi-Line. If confirmed, will you work with
Reclamation and the farmers and ranchers on the Hi-Line? The
Hi-Line is the northern part of our state, up close to the
Canadian border. It's very arid. It's dry. We depend on water
to stay alive up there, and the irrigation systems in the St.
Mary infrastructure. Just want to get your commitment that you
would work with us and use all available resources at your
disposal to replace these siphons and ensure the work is done
as quickly as possible.
Ms. Estenoz. Senator, I appreciate the question, and I'm
sorry to hear that we have a water management infrastructure
failure. No one knows how serious those are better than I do,
and if I am confirmed, I absolutely will work with you and with
BOR to ensure that we are addressing that issue adequately.
Senator Daines. Yes, this is one of the situations where
you can't miss one irrigation season. Right now, we have got
high temperatures. We have had a cool June and July, and
suddenly the temperature spiked. July in Montana is higher
temperatures and it gets to be very----
Ms. Estenoz. And Senator, I'm sorry, may I just quickly--
may I thank you for acknowledging the incident in Yellowstone,
and let me just say to the Committee, Senator Daines is
correct. The bravery of our law enforcement officers in
Yellowstone did, indeed, likely prevent a disaster and
potentially a mass casualty event. It is true that one of our
officers was shot, a very young officer. He is going to be
okay. He is with his family now. And if Senator Risch was here,
I would thank him, because our officer was flown to Idaho
Falls, and the medical professionals in Idaho cared for him and
we are very grateful for that. So thank you for raising that.
Senator Daines. Of course, and thanks for your outreach.
Ms. Estenoz. Yes.
Senator Daines. I do want to talk grizzly bears.
Ms. Estenoz. Okay, yes, sir.
Senator Daines. Of course. So last February, of course, FWS
initiated not a 17-month status review--it's called a 12-month
status review for a reason. If they want to initiate a 17-month
status review, we would be expecting the result here this
month. But it's a 12-month status review. So you know, the data
is very compelling in terms of where the recovery target is,
where the actual populations are.
Ms. Estenoz. Yes.
Senator Daines. My question is, would you help us and focus
on getting this 12-month review done that should have been
completed in February?
Ms. Estenoz. Senator, so thank you, and it is good to talk
grizzlies with you again. And first of all, let me acknowledge
that I agree with you 100 percent. Not that my agreement
matters, because the facts are what they are. The Greater
Yellowstone Ecosystem population is recovered. The numbers from
2022--965. Not only that, as I said earlier, the Northern
Continental Divide population is also recovered, at more than
1,100 bears. And we do have this petition in front of us that
is asking us to delist the GYE as a distinct population
segment. It is that definition that, you know, we are working
through. It has got--you know, we tried to do that before. We
have tried to do that twice before, and the courts have
rejected it. And so, we are working through that. We are
working through our delisting criteria. And in the meantime, I
want to say, because I didn't say it earlier, when we were
chatting about grizzlies, I just, I need to say for the record
how grateful we are to both Montana and Wyoming for the
stewardship of grizzly bears. And grizzly bears are doing well
in those states because the states are taking good care of
grizzly bears. And we know that.
And then, I also want to say for the record that we want
grizzlies to be recovered and delisted. I want to say that
without reservation. We want that. I want that for all of our
listed species, right? A delisting is a celebration. But as I
mentioned, in the ESA, the path that you use to get there also
matters. It's not just the listing decision, it's the path you
take. That is often what courts will attack. So we want to make
sure we have got the path right.
Senator Daines. Yeah, thank you, and I agree, but there's
no reason we can't get this 12-month study wrapped up.
Ms. Estenoz. Sorry.
Senator Daines. We're at 17 months.
Ms. Estenoz. Yes, sir, thank you.
Senator Daines. The question is, we have got to get this
wrapped up. Now, you all at Interior can decide to slow-roll
this thing to the election if you would like. I think that's a
big mistake. I think it violates the integrity of this process
if we don't just commit to the 12-month, which should have been
done in February. It is now the middle of July.
Ms. Estenoz. Yes, Senator, I can assure you that this
process is running based on what the needs of the process are,
and I agree with you, you know, driving toward a decision as
soon as possible.
Senator Daines. When is it going to be done?
Ms. Estenoz. Well, I think we're--I don't have a date for
you, but as I mentioned to you when we met a couple of weeks
ago, this issue may be--it's in the top five for the Fish and
Wildlife Service leadership. I can tell you Martha has been out
to Montana and Wyoming now a couple of times in the last month.
Senator Daines. Yes.
Ms. Estenoz. So this is a top priority, and I want to stay
in touch with you also in the days and weeks ahead.
Senator Daines. I am just a little skeptical----
Ms. Estenoz. I know it. I know it, Senator.
Senator Daines [continuing]. That we are going to see this
get done before the election. I just think we need to get it
done. I mean, just for the sake of the bears.
Ms. Estenoz. Agreed.
Senator Daines. For the sake of the process. I hope we can
dissolve the politics, if we might be able to, and try to stay
focused on the science and get this done. I realize you want to
get a solid review done so it protects ourselves when we get
litigated in court.
Ms. Estenoz. Yes. Right.
Senator Daines. But, I mean, at some point, is it 12
months--if we gave you two years, I'm afraid you would come
back here and say we're at 36 months and still thinking about
it.
Ms. Estenoz. I appreciate that. I appreciate that, Senator.
You are right. And we have, you know, it's a little bit further
complicated because we have three petitions before us that are
all related. You know----
Senator Daines. Yes.
Ms. Estenoz [continuing]. And so, I appreciate it, and as
always, I will stay in contact with your office in the days and
weeks ahead.
Senator Daines. Okay.
I am well over my time, and the Chairman is very gracious.
Ms. Estenoz. I'm sorry.
Senator Daines. I just, I got to talk the Ninth Circuit
Cottonwood fix. Will you commit to working with this Committee
to get this bipartisan--voted out of here by voice vote--fix to
save our forest management industry in the West?
Ms. Estenoz. Absolutely, Senator. You know, it's one of the
great regrets. When I was first in front of this Committee in
2021, you and I agreed, let's work together on Cottonwood, try
to do an administrative fix. Couldn't get that done. Then, I
tried, you know, we tried to help and work with you
statutorily. So yes.
Senator Daines. Well, and I am grateful we have got, you
know, I have got my colleagues over on this side of the dais
here, who have been supportive of this now. I think we are
ready. We could use your help here to get this across the
finish line.
The Chairman. Thank you, Senator. Thank you, thank you,
thank you.
Ms. Estenoz. Thank you.
The Chairman. Senator Hirono.
Senator Hirono. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Congratulations on your nomination. When you appeared
before this Committee at your last nomination hearing, I had
invited you to visit Hawaii, and I understand that you have.
Ms. Estenoz. I have.
Senator Hirono. So thank you very much. And I hope that you
had an opportunity to hear from the people of Hawaii some of
their major concerns relating to the Department and what the
Department can do. And in that regard, I did want to thank you
for your leadership and that of the Secretary for investing
over $36 million to help conserve some of Hawaii's most
endangered native bird species. We do not have grizzly bears,
but we have birds, beautiful birds.
Ms. Estenoz. Beautiful birds.
Senator Hirono. So I really appreciated your explaining
your leadership style, and it was good to hear some specific
examples of how you have been a listener and your
responsiveness. And I think part of what we need to do in
Hawaii, especially, is to reach out to the Native Hawaiian
community, and I hope that you were able to experience some of
that when you visited Hawaii. But with regard to the Forest
Bird Strategy, can you just explain your role in developing and
implementing the Hawaii Forest Bird Strategy, and how you have
really included the Native Hawaiian community in developing
this strategy?
Ms. Estenoz. Thank you, Senator. And to answer your
question, Hawaii was a remarkable experience, a transformative
experience. It was my first visit and I was very grateful to be
there. We did spend a great deal of time with the Native
Hawaiian community on a number of issues. And so I was grateful
for that perspective and experience as well.
On native Hawaiian birds, we did a lot of work during my
visit. I got to meet a lot of the folks who are working on
that. I think one of the pillars of that approach--so we know
that these incredibly imperiled, very culturally significant
species are under threat by invasive mosquitoes that
essentially carry avian malaria. And these mosquitoes are
actually expanding with climate change. So they are actually
expanding in elevation, chasing the birds up the sides of the
caldera and mountains. And one of the pillars of our approach
here is to engage with the Native Hawaiian community and to
incorporate cultural and indigenous knowledge in our approaches
so that we are addressing this crisis in a way that is
effective and that is also respectful of the cultural
significance that this species plays. And my role has been to,
you know, to really provide that leadership and encouragement
and making sure the program has the resources that it needs,
and that's what I have done.
Senator Hirono. Thank you. And by the way, I want to add to
this discussion my concern also about deferred maintenance, and
I think our Committee members are very much committed to more
being done because that is what deferred maintenance is, we
keep deferring it.
Ms. Estenoz. Yes.
Senator Hirono. So thank you very much.
One of the new issues that will come before you, if you are
confirmed, is COFA implementation. COFA is something that I
really worked tirelessly with my colleagues on to get the
compacts approved, but what's new under the newly approved
compacts is that the compact citizens who live in the United
states, and there are many of them--20,000 or so in Hawaii--but
they are now able to access federal programs and they were not
able to do that before. So implementation of this 20-year
agreement with the Freely Associated States--that would be
Palau, Micronesia, and the Marshall Islands--is a high
priority, and I would appreciate a status update from the
Department when it's available about how we are doing with
providing the kinds of services that they are now able to
access.
Ms. Estenoz. Thank you, Senator, and I want to congratulate
and thank everyone, the members of this Committee, who are
essential to the reaching the COFA milestone--I know Senator
Risch, Senator Manchin, yourself, Senator. And the Department
is absolutely committed. If I am confirmed as Deputy Secretary,
I will be committed to its implementation. It is absolutely
critical, not just to meet our obligations to our affiliated
states, but also for our national security in the Pacific. I
mean, this is an incredibly important initiative, and it would
be a high priority for me if I were confirmed as Deputy
Secretary.
Senator Hirono. I will look to your leadership on that
because the COFA agreement involved three different
departments, and Interior is the lead, but it obviously
included the DOD and State. And one of the reasons that it took
longer than I think that it should have taken is that there are
three departments, and there was a lot of, I wouldn't say
finger pointing, but somebody had to take responsibility for
all of this happening. And so I thank your Department for your
leadership, and you are going to need to continue to do that
because we have thousands and thousands of COFA citizens who
are living in our country who need the kind of assistance that
we can provide and that should have never been taken away from
them. So thank you very much for your commitment.
Ms. Estenoz. Thank you, Senator.
Senator Hirono. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Thank you, Senator.
And now we go to Senator Cassidy.
Senator Cassidy. Thank you. Good morning, ma'am.
Ms. Estenoz. Good morning, Senator.
Senator Cassidy. I was pleased to hear that you understand
the economic impact of the ability of a family to work offshore
in order to create an opportunity for their daughter to have a
future such as you have had, because some people are just
insensitive to that or don't care.
Now, you mentioned earlier, I am told, a question from
Senator Manchin, that we will continue leasing, but I am going
to press you on that. We will continue leasing means sometime
in the distant future--ten years from now, we may have another
lease. But as you know, there has to be, kind of, certainty as
to the flow. Next year we are going to have a lease and the
year after and the year after, because if you work for a
company which serves those rigs, you can't have a two-year
interruption. Everybody is laid off and you can no longer do
it. So will there be a lease sale in 2024?
Ms. Estenoz. Senator, so, thank you very much. What I would
say to you is that we have got a five-year plan. And if I am
confirmed as the Deputy Secretary, my top priority--I have said
a piece of this throughout the hearing--it would be to
immediately, at a deeper level, understand the policy
implications and our policy decisions in the energy space. And
this is one of them that is very important. And I would want to
work with you to understand, for example, our five-year plan,
the approach to offshore leasing that we proposed.
Senator Cassidy. So let me stop you for a second.
Ms. Estenoz. Yes, sir. Thank you.
Senator Cassidy. In a previous hearing, an acting Deputy
Secretary suggested that it would take 18 months to process
this. Well, that will put us into late 2025 and 2026. You're
thinking, you have been in office for three and a half years.
If you had started right off the bat, we would have something
happening now, and then something happening in 2025 and 2026.
So it seems as if there is foot dragging. I am just, from the
outside looking in--oh, how long can we stretch it out so that
yeah, we are technically doing it, but in reality, those
families that depend upon this income, as your family once did,
they will be left hanging out to dry, but we don't care because
we don't want it to happen.
So I guess my frustration is, why is it always tomorrow
that this is going to happen? Why didn't it happen when the
dadgum Administration took office?
Ms. Estenoz. So Senator, I know this is a frustrating
response to you, but I am just speaking the truth, which is
that I have not been part of the policy conversation on energy
since I have been in the Administration. So if I were confirmed
as Deputy Secretary, I would be, and I would seek to understand
the details and the implications at a deeper level at that
time.
Senator Cassidy. Well, let me just mention another
observation.
Ms. Estenoz. Yes.
Senator Cassidy. It does seem like there is a strategy of
death by a thousand cuts. So there has been this latest ruling
regarding the Rice's whale, in which they have found critical
habitat, maybe, because there was a single, possible--maybe,
kind of, we think--could-have-been sighting off of Texas, and
they know they are off of Florida. And so they are putting a
corridor in between. So far, not too bad, except where they
have actually seen the Rice's whale, the corridor is about five
miles wide, and off the coast of Louisiana, it's anywhere from
20 to 30 miles wide. That is significant because there is a ten
mile per hour limitation on speed only for offshore service
vehicles for the rigs, not for a power boat. So it's like a
targeted, we are going to make it economically inefficient for
you to actually drill offshore. Now, you have not been there
while they are doing this, but that is the sort of thing that
from the outside looking in, it's just hard to convince me that
this isn't a strategy of death by a thousand cuts to the people
who depend upon this industry for their economic livelihood.
Again, you are going to say, and rightfully so, you have
not been part of that decision-making, but that will be
something that I will be kind of looking at. The science seems
quite convenient--``we are relying on the science,'' but you
can't help but notice it's five miles wide here, but where
there is Outer Continental Shelf drilling, it's 20 to 30 miles
wide. Hmm, that science makes a lot of sense to me--no, it
doesn't.
So now that I have been kind of bursting at the head, let
me go here--revenue sharing. Let me just ask you about this.
Ms. Estenoz. Yes.
Senator Cassidy. Revenue sharing. The Land and Water
Conservation Fund, which I know that the Chairman has used very
nicely for West Virginia and that Daines was speaking very
highly of, is funded almost entirely out of oil and gas
revenues. There is a cap that limits the amount coming to the
Gulf states, which we use this for coastal restoration. By the
time this Committee hearing is over, my state would have lost
about 100 square yards of land to relative sea-level rise. We
use that money, by our state's constitution, to rebuild our
coastline. Last year, Louisiana, Texas, Mississippi, and
Alabama missed out on BOEM, on about $216 million that would
have gone to local resiliency in these four states because
there was this cap that we are trying to raise with the RISEE
Act. So I am just asking you, with your experience in the
Everglades, is there a nice ROI on investment in resiliency,
which is to say that if we invest now, we have to spend less
later?
Ms. Estenoz. I promise I didn't plan that question with
you, Senator Cassidy. Yes, there is a tremendous ROI. You know,
the numbers we have used in the Everglades for wetland and
coastal restoration is something like four to one ROI, and
that's an old number. It's probably higher now. I traveled to
Louisiana last August and spent some time out there, looking at
some of that coastal restoration. And I think, you know, I know
you have got the RISEE Act. The RISEE Act is moving through and
if I am confirmed as Deputy Secretary or even in my current
role, my current portfolio, you know, I would welcome the
opportunity to work with you. I understand, you know, that you
have given me some good numbers and I would like to understand
those better, about the impact when it comes to the revenue
sharing cap as well. Coastal restoration is obviously essential
for our coastal states.
Senator Cassidy. Thank you. I yield.
Thank you.
The Chairman. Thank you, Senator.
And now we have Senator Hoeven.
Senator Hoeven. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you to you
and the Ranking Member for holding this hearing today.
Secretary, I appreciate you being here.
Ms. Estenoz. Thank you, Senator.
Senator Hoeven. One of the things we have worked on very
hard in the Theodore Roosevelt National Park is to maintain the
horses that are there. The wild horses have been there for,
obviously, a very long time. There was some attention by the
Park Service to consider removing the horses.
Ms. Estenoz. Yes, sir.
Senator Hoeven. We had a public process, a lot of input,
people very, very, very much want horses in that park. I worked
to secure a commitment from the Park Service to maintain horses
in the park, and not only horses, but a genetically diverse
herd, a large enough herd to maintain their genetic diversity.
Are you committed to making sure that we continue to retain
horses in the park and maintain an adequate herd so that the
genetics are adequately preserved?
Ms. Estenoz. Senator, let me say, it was nice to speak with
you on the phone when we were leading into that decision, and I
want to thank you for your leadership on that issue. I want to
thank you for your close communication with our regional
director. Your office has a very good relationship with him.
And the Park Service has decided to take a step back, you know,
from its plan and look again at horses at Theodore Roosevelt,
and I think, you know, my role will be to work with them and
work with you to find that right management level for that herd
that is the right management level for the herd, and then we
also want to talk about sort of the resources needed to
maintain that herd by the Park Service. You know, we have got
to protect all of those resources, and you know all of that. I
mean, you know the unit very well. So I look forward to working
together on it.
Senator Hoeven. Thank you, and at least one or more of the
tribes in the state have offered to assist in any way, shape,
or form--Standing Rock, as well as the State of North Dakota,
and there's a lot going on out there. So, you know, in your
travels you may want to come out, but there's a ton going on in
the park----
Ms. Estenoz. Wonderful, yes.
Senator Hoeven [continuing]. And the horses are an
important part of it. So thank you for--and the regional
administrator for us has been just outstanding. We have worked
with him before, as you know, on elk and other things.
Ms. Estenoz. Yes, yes.
Senator Hoeven. And he does a fine job. He knows----
Ms. Estenoz. Yes, I have known Bert for 20 years. He is a
really easy guy to work with.
Senator Hoeven. Yes, he is a good man. Thank you on that.
Now, one of the challenges that we have got is that you are
looking at what you call a resource management plan in the
Dakotas. The challenge with this, at least the way that you
have proceeded so far, is that it would really close off
leasing oil and gas acreage and also our coal acreage. And you
have to understand in, North Dakota, maybe you do, but we have
split ownership between Interior, the state, and between
private individuals. So, for example, the Federal Government
might not own any of the surface acres, but they might own some
of the mineral acres underneath. The state might own some, and
private individuals might own some. So if, in this resource
management plan, you close off access or refuse to lease your
minerals, all of a sudden, whether it's oil or coal or anything
else, they are stopped, and you might not even own any of the
surface acreage, right? And so then, they would have to go
somewhere else or go around you. That disenfranchises not only
the State of North Dakota, but also those individuals.
So you need to work with us on this management plan. And
again, it goes back to multiple use, you know, in the
grasslands and in federal lands. And so, whether it's BLM,
whether it's, you know, the National Grasslands, any of these,
and of course, we work with Department of Ag on that, but we
have got to be able to access those so that people are not
unfairly disenfranchised.
Ms. Estenoz. Yes, thank you, Senator. And if I am
confirmed, I absolutely will commit to working with you on
that. I have a little bit of experience, believe it or not. We
have a mixed-estate situation in Big Cypress National Preserve
in Florida--privately held minerals, publicly held surface
estate. So I have a little bit of experience there. So yes, I
look forward to working with you on that, if I am confirmed.
Senator Hoeven. And, you know, obviously, we do an
incredible amount in ag, in energy, livestock, all those kinds
of things, but it's also tourism and recreation. We do it all
out there. We truly follow that multiple use, but we have got
to make sure that we are able to access lands properly and
fairly for both the state and for individuals.
Ms. Estenoz. Thank you, Senator.
Senator Hoeven. Okay.
I guess the other thing I would want to ask about is, the
Biden Administration put out numbers on drilling permits, and
it said that there had been more drilling permits approved than
were actually drilled, and at one time they were saying there
were more drilling permits approved through the Biden
Administration than for the same amount of time during the
Trump Administration. Now, that has come out, and that number
has been dropped significantly by something like a thousand
drilling permits. And so I would like to make sure we have the
accurate information. You know, we are concerned, obviously,
that the price of gasoline is up, and we believe that nobody
can do it--I mean, we produce over 1.2 million barrels a day
just in my state, and nobody has better environmental
standards. And so we can't allow Russia or OPEC or Iran or
anyone else to produce for the world. We need to be producing
not only for ourselves and others, but just to bring prices
down, fight inflation, and really for geopolitical security.
So if you would, I would like those latest updated numbers,
if you would provide those?
Ms. Estenoz. I will take that back, Senator, and make sure
that those get to you.
Senator Hoeven. Thank you.
Ms. Estenoz. Thank you.
Senator Hoeven. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Thank you, Senator.
And I just have one more question to follow up with.
Ms. Estenoz. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And then Senator Barrasso does too. And I do
not know if Senator Hoeven has another question or so.
But with that, mine is this: In the Infrastructure
Investment and Jobs Act, which we passed, bipartisan, in 2022,
the Interior Department was given a statutory deadline to issue
the final offshore carbon capture and storage regulation by
November 2022. Interior missed that deadline and continues to
delay each year. All the science tells us we cannot meet our
climate goals without carbon sequestration. But it's an
oxymoron because if they don't really want to find a solution
for it, they can blame the problem on fossil fuels, when we can
use it with technology to make it much cleaner. So given the
Administration's focus on decarbonization, the issue should be
a top priority, yet a draft rule has not even been published
yet. So I am asking you, if confirmed, will you commit to
publishing a proposed rule before the end of this year?
Ms. Estenoz. Well, Senator, as we get to know each other
better, you will know that I am always a little reluctant to
commit to things that I don't have control over because my word
is everything, right? So I do not want to set myself up for
failure----
The Chairman. Do you have any idea where this is right now?
Ms. Estenoz. My understanding is that it is a priority. It
is in development. I mean, I think, what I understand about it
is that it's standing up a brand new regime, a policy and
permitting regime. And so it's complicated. And I know----
The Chairman. Let me make sure I understand.
Ms. Estenoz. Yes.
The Chairman. Because you understand the politics we are
dealing with.
Ms. Estenoz. Yes.
The Chairman. The Administration, or John Podesta, does not
want to find a cure, okay? So that is what we are dealing with.
You are required to act on the facts. We can do it. We can
safely sequester. We have proven that, commercially. And all we
are asking for is give us the report that shows it can be done.
That is all we are asking for. I will fight the Administration.
We will both fight it, whatever is going on there. But if you
all will just--someone that we can count on to give us the
facts that it can be done offshore.
Ms. Estenoz. Senator, thank you. And if I am confirmed, as
I have said this morning, you know, I will work with you. I
will communicate with you. And I will take responsibility to be
as smart as I need to be to communicate with you in an
effective way that you find useful.
The Chairman. Since I won't be here after January, I will
rely on my friend here to make sure----
Ms. Estenoz. Mr. Barrasso.
The Chairman [continuing]. That you are reporting back to
us.
Ms. Estenoz. Absolutely. Thank you, Senator.
The Chairman. Senator Barrasso.
Senator Barrasso. Yes, thanks, Mr. Chairman.
Just a couple other things. You know, in November 2022,
Laura Daniel-Davis, the Acting Deputy Secretary, she signed a
decision memo that raised royalty rates on oil and gas leases,
raised the rates. According to the memo, they said lowering
rates would actually encourage more oil and gas development and
offer greater energy security. We are worried about energy
security for the country. But she went ahead and chose to
impose higher royalty rates so that, she said, ``the oil and
gas production would move to a lower,'' and she said, ``more
socially optimal level.'' So that the socially optimal level is
not what is most interesting for the country in terms of
greater energy security. Totally divergent positions.
Do you believe that less American oil and gas production is
socially optimal for our nation?
Ms. Estenoz. So Senator, I am not sure I know what socially
optimal is, but what I would say is that----
Senator Barrasso. Well, it sounds like it's a religion by
this Administration and the Department right now.
Ms. Estenoz. What I would say is that, you know, I know
that the Administration is pursuing a clean energy transition,
and that addressing the climate crisis, lowering greenhouse gas
emissions, this is something that is a high priority for us.
And we have said this morning that we know that oil and gas
production is going to be a part of the energy mix for a long
time. And if I am confirmed as Deputy Secretary, you know, the
energy portfolio would be--and my understanding the nature of
the debate and really understanding what are the contours of
the debate--you know, that is going to be my number one
priority.
Senator Barrasso. In addition to the contours, it's the
long-term consequences of the debate. We had a hearing here a
couple of weeks ago that the Chairman called talking about
long-term energy needs and AI. And even according to the New
York Times, the energy needs of this nation five years from now
because of AI, because of electrification of vehicles, because
of crypto, all of those things is going to be like adding a
whole new California to the grid. And China is committed to
having all the energy that they need for AI, and it doesn't
seem like this Administration is committed to having the energy
needed to be able to compete against China. And that was the
result of the hearing here. So I am just talking in terms of
the long-term consequences.
So you know, under the current Secretary, the Department
has leased, on average, 96 percent less onshore acreage for oil
and gas production each year than the three prior
Administrations--even the Obama Administration--much, much
less. It has also issued, on average, 93 percent fewer onshore
oil and gas leases each year compared to the prior
Administrations, including the Obama Administration. In your
view, is the Department headed in the right direction when it
comes to oil and gas leasing?
Ms. Estenoz. Well, so, you know, again, Senator, I have not
been in the policy discussion on energy. Thus far, I would say
that the Administration is confident that our plan is going to
meet our energy needs into the future. I understand there is
disagreement, and if I am confirmed as Deputy Secretary, I
would be then part of that debate and those discussions and I
would look forward to, you know, understanding your perspective
on them.
Senator Barrasso. I think what you just said is true--the
Administration believes we are on the track to do that. We have
had, here testifying, the FERC--the Federal Energy Regulatory
Commission--and NERC--the reliability--they all say the
Administration is wrong on that viewpoint. So I look forward to
you getting deeper into that from a scientific standpoint to
see there.
The average time under Secretary Haaland to take to get an
oil and gas permit has nearly tripled when compared to the
Obama Administration. In one of the BLM field offices in
Wyoming, the average wait time is now more than a year and a
half. If confirmed, you would be the person overseeing the
Bureau. Does nearly tripling the time it takes to receive an
oil and gas permit sound reasonable to you?
Ms. Estenoz. Well, Senator, we talked a little bit about
permitting this morning across the board, and we know that the
permitting process across the board can take longer than any of
us really wants it to take. And certainly, if I am confirmed,
you know, I would look into concerns, if there are, you know,
as you have expressed concerns into the time it takes to
process oil and gas permitting or any permitting.
Senator Barrasso. So it gets into the discussion of what we
consider reasonable because the federal law requires the Bureau
of Land Management to issue oil and gas leases to winning
bidders within 60 days. I mean, that is the current law. The
Bureau has refused to issue leases to winning bidders of its
2020 lease sale. It is now 2024. The Bureau has sat on these
leases for three and a half years. I mean, those are the facts.
If confirmed, you would oversee the Bureau. Is this a good
example of an issue that would merit at least your personal
time and attention?
Ms. Estenoz. Indeed. I mean, certainly. Any issue that is
raised by a United States Senator would be worth my time and
attention, and this is one of them, certainly. And you know,
again, this is the perfect example of, you know, where the
Deputy Secretary would step in and say, all right, what's
happening, and then, you know, communicate directly with you on
that point.
Senator Barrasso. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Let me just follow up real quick on that.
Ms. Estenoz. Yes.
The Chairman. For an example, a drilling permit needed for
a proposed lithium project on BLM-managed land has taken more
than two years versus less than six months to secure the same
permit on private lands. You don't have to reinvent the wheel
here. All you have to do is basically reverse engineer. How are
we doing it four times faster on private land than where we
have total control on BLM land? That makes no sense to us.
Ms. Estenoz. You know, thank you, Senator. And I will just
say this--which is perhaps a little bit more substantive--which
is that, you know, I mentioned earlier that in my current
portfolio I have intersected, you know, with some of these
issues, as overseeing a regulatory agency now. And you know,
one of the lessons that--a couple of the lessons that I learned
is that in some of these efforts, you know, engaging with the
regulatory agency early and often, you know, that is an
important thing to do. In our case, it was Fish and Wildlife
Service, right? Engage leadership from the very beginning. The
bigger and more complex the project, the more important it is
to have certain leadership driving us to milestones, helping
deconflict, helping getting over disagreements in stuck places.
So I have learned some of these lessons and I would certainly
bring those into the Deputy Secretary.
The Chairman. Well, let me just make one final comment and
then we will close out here.
Ms. Estenoz. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. The Department of the Interior seems to take
stewardship to a whole new level. The Department of the
Interior is not the owner of this land. It's the people of
America, every one of us sitting here, we all own BLM land. And
we are appreciative of good stewardship, but the bottom line
is, it should be for our benefit, and this is what is not
happening. We are fighting with ourselves to get the best
results. That is what is frustrating, sitting here as a U.S.
Senator, trying to have a dialogue with people who--you are a
steward, you don't own it. It's not yours. This seat is not
mine. It's not John's. We understand that. We are stewards. We
are representing the people and we are asking you all to do the
same.
So with that, we do appreciate you being here. We
appreciate your responsiveness to our questions, which I think
you have been straightforward and I appreciate that very much
and your willingness to take on this important role, which is
so, so important to our country.
Ms. Estenoz. Thank you.
The Chairman. So with that, our members will have until
6:00 p.m. tomorrow to submit additional questions for the
record.
And with that, the meeting is adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 11:34 a.m., the hearing was adjourned.]
APPENDIX MATERIAL SUBMITTED
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