    [Senate Hearing 118-396]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]

                                                            S. Hrg. 118-396

                               ESTENOZ NOMINATION

    =======================================================================

                                    HEARING

                                   BEFORE THE

                                  COMMITTEE ON
                          ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES
                              UNITED STATES SENATE

                        ONE HUNDRED EIGHTHEENTH CONGRESS

                                 SECOND SESSION

                                       to

                 CONSIDER THE NOMINATION OF SHANNON A. ESTENOZ
                     TO BE DEPUTY SECRETARY OF THE INTERIOR

                                   __________

                                 JULY 10, 2024

                                   __________

                           Printed for the use of the
                   Committee on Energy and Natural Resources

    [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

            Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov

                                   __________

                       U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
    56-490                  WASHINGTON : 2025

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                   COMMITTEE ON ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES

                    JOE MANCHIN III, West Virginia, Chairman
    RON WYDEN, Oregon                    JOHN BARRASSO, Wyoming
    MARIA CANTWELL, Washington           JAMES E. RISCH, Idaho
    BERNARD SANDERS, Vermont             MIKE LEE, Utah
    MARTIN HEINRICH, New Mexico          STEVE DAINES, Montana
    MAZIE K. HIRONO, Hawaii              LISA MURKOWSKI, Alaska
    ANGUS S. KING, JR., Maine            JOHN HOEVEN, North Dakota
    CATHERINE CORTEZ MASTO, Nevada       BILL CASSIDY, Louisiana
    JOHN W. HICKENLOOPER, Colorado       CINDY HYDE-SMITH, Mississippi
    ALEX PADILLA, California             JOSH HAWLEY, Missouri

                          Renae Black, Staff Director
                          Sam E. Fowler, Chief Counsel
                  Justin J. Memmott, Republican Staff Director
               Patrick J. McCormick III, Republican Chief Counsel

                               C O N T E N T S

                                  ----------

                               OPENING STATEMENTS

                                                                       Page
    Manchin III, Hon. Joe, Chairman and a U.S. Senator from West
      Virginia.......................................................     1
    Barrasso, Hon. John, Ranking Member and a U.S. Senator from
      Wyoming........................................................     2

                                    WITNESS

    Estenoz, Shannon A., nominated to be Deputy Secretary of the U.S.
      Department of the Interior.....................................     3

              ALPHABETICAL LISTING AND APPENDIX MATERIAL SUBMITTED

    Alaska Wilderness League et al.:
        Statement for the Record.....................................    51
    Barrasso, Hon. John:
        Opening Statement............................................     2
    Estenoz, Shannon A.:
        Opening Statement............................................     3
        Written Testimony............................................     6
        Responses to Questions for the Record........................    36
    Manchin III, Hon. Joe:
        Opening Statement............................................     1

                               ESTENOZ NOMINATION

                                  ----------

                            WEDNESDAY, JULY 10, 2024

                                           U.S. Senate,
                     Committee on Energy and Natural Resources,
                                                        Washington, DC.
        The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:00 a.m. in
    Room SD-366, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Joe Manchin
    III, Chairman of the Committee, presiding.

              OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. JOE MANCHIN III,
                    U.S. SENATOR FROM WEST VIRGINIA

        The Chairman. The Committee will come to order.
        We meet today to consider the nomination of Shannon Estenoz
    to be the Deputy Secretary of the Interior. Ms. Estenoz
    currently serves as the Assistant Secretary for Fish and
    Wildlife and Parks. She came before this Committee three years
    ago when we considered her for her current position. I want to
    welcome you back to the Committee. I want to thank you for
    being here and for your service and for your willingness to
    take on this important task, if confirmed. We also welcome any
    members of your family, and if you would like to introduce
    them, we would be happy for you to do that.
        Ms. Estenoz. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        I am very grateful to have my husband, Richard Grosso, with
    me today.
        The Chairman. Richard, it's good to be with you and thank
    you for being here.
        As Assistant Secretary for Fish and Wildlife and Parks for
    the past three years, Ms. Estenoz, you had responsibility for
    the nation's parks and wildlife refuges and the endangered
    species program. As Deputy Secretary, your responsibilities
    will expand greatly, as you know. The Department of the
    Interior manages 20 percent of the nation's land, over 700
    million acres of subsurface mineral rights, and over three
    billion acres on the Outer Continental Shelf. These lands and
    waters produce nearly 20 percent of the nation's energy,
    including 43 percent of our coal, 27 percent of our oil, 14
    percent of our natural gas, and two-thirds of our geothermal
    energy and much of our wind, solar, and hydropower. In addition
    to the parks and refuges that you oversee now, the Deputy
    Secretary also shares responsibility for energy and mineral
    production, dams and reservoirs and irrigation projects,
    grazing and timber, insular areas, Indian tribes, abandoned
    mine lands, and wildfires. The Department's mission is two-
    prong, requiring both preservation and production,
    conservation, and wise use. The Department does not have the
    luxury to choose one mission over the other, it must fulfill
    both and find the right balance between the two. As the
    Department's chief operating officer, the Deputy Secretary of
    the Interior must play a major role in striking the right
    balance in keeping the Department on course for its mission.
        You have spent the past three years overseeing two of the
    Department's largest units, which together account for nearly a
    third of the Department's budget. You are familiar with the
    Department's mission and the issues facing it. In your current
    job you have had a major hand in tackling the deferred
    maintenance backlog in our national parks and wildlife refuges
    pursuant to the Great American Outdoors Act, increasing access
    to outdoor recreation for disadvantaged communities, cleaning
    up orphan wells in the national parks, and working with the
    Defense Department on endangered species recovery. You have a
    reputation for being able to understand complex problems, for
    being able to work collaboratively with others, for being
    thoughtful and willing to listen, and for working across the
    aisle, which I appreciate very much. While my colleagues across
    the aisle have taken issue with much of what the Department has
    done throughout this Administration, as I have also, both the
    Committee and the full Senate were able to approve your
    previous nomination without controversy on your own merits and
    on voice votes. I look forward to hearing from you this morning
    on your nomination to take on still greater responsibilities as
    Deputy Secretary.
        And now, I will turn to my friend and my Ranking Member,
    Senator Barrasso.

               OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. JOHN BARRASSO,
                       U.S. SENATOR FROM WYOMING

        Senator Barrasso. Well, thanks, Mr. Chairman. Thanks for
    holding today's hearing.
        Ms. Estenoz, welcome back to the Committee. Congratulations
    on your nomination to be Deputy Secretary of the Interior. Over
    the last three years, you have served as the Assistant
    Secretary for Fish and Wildlife and Parks. In that position you
    oversaw the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service and the National
    Park Service. These two agencies play a very significant role
    in my home State of Wyoming, as you are well aware. During your
    tenure, you have shown a willingness to listen and to learn.
    You have demonstrated an ability to work across party lines,
    and have made a sincere effort to find common ground on many
    very difficult issues. I appreciate the collaborative approach
    that you have taken as the Assistant Secretary.
        We are here today to examine whether you should be
    confirmed as the Deputy Secretary of the Interior. A person who
    holds this position has a profound impact on the lives of the
    people in Wyoming and the Rocky Mountain West. If confirmed,
    one of your most important responsibilities will be to oversee
    energy and mineral development on federal lands. We in Wyoming
    are proud to be America's leading producer of coal, uranium,
    trona, bentonite, helium, and proud to be a leading producer of
    oil and natural gas. In Wyoming, most energy and mineral
    production takes place on federal lands. In fact, almost 50
    percent of Wyoming's land and almost 70 percent of Wyoming's
    minerals are owned by the Federal Government. Energy and
    mineral production is the engine of Wyoming's economy. In 2021,
    oil and gas production alone contributed nearly $12 billion to
    Wyoming's economy and supported 58,000 jobs in a state where
    the population is only 500,000. For years, the State of Wyoming
    has collected over a billion dollars annually in royalties and
    taxes for energy production on federal lands. Wyoming uses this
    revenue to fund K-12 public education and other essential
    services. It is imperative that the Deputy Secretary
    understands how the Department impacts the people of Wyoming
    and the West.
        For more than three years, Secretary Haaland has laid the
    groundwork for my state's economic ruin. Absolutely, she has
    done that. She has canceled two years' worth of oil and gas
    leases. She has nearly tripled timelines for oil and gas
    permits. She has put two million acres of existing oil and gas
    leases on hold. She has raised the cost of operating on federal
    lands by 20-fold. And she has even refused to deliver leases to
    the winning bidders from the 2020 lease sales. It is now 2024.
    That is the Secretary of the Department.
        If that weren't enough, Secretary Haaland now wants to
    prohibit coal leasing in the Powder River Basin. Last year, the
    Powder River Basin supplied 45 percent of all coal mined in the
    United States. It is the single richest source of affordable
    and reliable energy in the country. The Secretary wants to shut
    it down. It is an utterly reckless proposal by a completely
    irresponsible and unfit Secretary of the Interior. Secretary
    Haaland also wants to ban grazing, energy and mineral
    development, and recreation on over two million acres of
    federal land in Southwest Wyoming. That is an active proposal
    by the Secretary of the Interior. These lands are not national
    parks. They are not wildlife refuges. They are not wildlife
    areas. These are lands that Congress has specifically set aside
    for productive use, being attacked by the Secretary of the
    Interior.
        Time and again, Secretary Haaland has shown a contempt for
    the law of these United States, she has shown a hostility
    toward the people of Wyoming, and she has shown an indifference
    to the energy and the mineral security of our nation. This
    needs to end. Neither Wyoming nor America can afford another
    four years of these destructive policies.
        So I look forward to hearing from you today. More than
    anything else, I want to know whether you are going to be a
    voice of reason at the Department, and I hope you will be. I
    want to know whether you are willing to exercise independent
    judgment or whether we should just expect more of the same of
    what we have gotten from this Administration and this Secretary
    of the Interior.
        Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        The Chairman. Thank you, Senator.
        Ms. Estenoz, we welcome you, your husband, and your staff.
    We would like to hear from you now with your opening statement.

        STATEMENT OF SHANNON A. ESTENOZ, NOMINATED TO BE DEPUTY
                       SECRETARY OF THE INTERIOR

        Ms. Estenoz. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member
    Barrasso, and members of the Committee. I am honored to appear
    before you as President Biden's nominee for Deputy Secretary of
    the Department of the Interior. I want to thank my husband,
    Richard, for being here today. I would also like to say hello
    to our sons, Nick and Spencer, to my mother, and to my friends
    and extended family, who are watching this morning.
        I was honored in 2021 to have been reported by voice vote
    by this Committee, to have been reported 19 to 1 by the
    Environment and Public Works Committee, and to have been--a
    little over a month later--confirmed by the full Senate by
    unanimous consent. It has been the greatest honor of my
    professional career to serve in this role for almost three
    years.
        I am a fifth-generation Floridian, born, as were all of my
    grandparents, in Key West, where I grew up on the water--
    swimming, fishing, snorkeling, and boating. I, like my late
    father, am a civil engineer. For the first ten years of my
    life, his career took him--and us--to oil platforms off the
    coast of Louisiana, the Tennessee Valley Authority in
    Knoxville, the Army Corps of Engineers in Kansas City, and
    finally, back home to Key West. I spent my own career in the
    Everglades, wearing many hats, over many years, working on the
    world's largest hydrologic ecosystem restoration program.
        The vast majority of my 29-year career has been spent on
    the ground in my big and complicated State of Florida. I have
    been a stakeholder, a state water manager, an appointee of both
    Democratic and Republican Governors of Florida, and for more
    than seven years, the Director of Everglades Restoration at the
    Department of the Interior. In my career, I have spent
    thousands of hours--thousands of hours, as I know all of you
    have--engaging on issues like these in community centers,
    private kitchens, under live oak trees, at boat docks, and on
    tree islands, because in a big, diverse state like Florida,
    where most of the land is privately owned, and where ranching
    and farming and mining are adjacent to huge metro areas, the
    only way to get anything done is to talk to everyone--not
    because you think you can get everyone to agree, but because
    understanding diverse perspectives always drives better
    decision-making.
        Since 2021, as the Assistant Secretary, I have overseen two
    of the Department's larger bureaus--the National Park Service
    and the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service--as they steward the
    nation's most iconic places and important history, work with
    communities to protect and promote the recovery of imperiled
    species, and to implement some of the most important
    environmental laws enacted by Congress. I have also had the
    pleasure of working with many of you on issues in your home
    states and that affect national parks, wildlife refuges,
    species, industries, resources, and livelihoods across the
    country. To put Congress's landmark investments to work for the
    benefit of the American people--the Great American Outdoors
    Act, the Land and Water Conservation Fund, the Bipartisan
    Infrastructure Law, and the Inflation Reduction Act--I have
    worked with offices and bureaus within the Department and their
    subject matter experts, scientists, resource managers, and
    leaders, in addition to community stakeholders and
    philanthropic sectors across the nation.
        We marked the 50th anniversary of the Endangered Species
    Act with a call to action to focus more partnership energy on
    species recovery and listing prevention. We have downlisted or
    delisted more than 30 species due to improvement or recovery.
    We have strengthened existing partnerships and built new ones
    so that today the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service counts the
    Department of Defense and the National Alliance of Forest
    Owners among its most valued partners in species recovery.
    Having worked as a leader in the Department for almost 11
    years, first as a career senior executive, and now as a policy
    official, I understand the responsibilities of the Deputy
    Secretary and the weight of the decisions that office must
    make. In essence, the portfolio of the Deputy Secretary is the
    portfolio of the Department. I have been on the front lines of
    resource management for almost 30 years, delivering consensus-
    based solutions to often very difficult problems. In that time,
    I have learned that people in communities are more similar than
    they are different, and without fail, every issue I have ever
    worked on has first and foremost been a people and community
    issue. At the Department, I know that there are many difficult
    issues--a few very long running--and we continue to work our
    way through them.
        In 2021, I pledged to this Committee that as Assistant
    Secretary I would use the tools that have served me best in my
    career: communication, transparency, and intellectual honesty.
    If I am confirmed as the next Deputy Secretary of the
    Department of the Interior, I will continue to honor this
    pledge.
        Thank you for the opportunity to appear before you, and I
    look forward to your questions. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        [The prepared statement of Ms. Estenoz follows:]
        [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        The Chairman. Thank you for your statement.
        I skipped over a very important part of this hearing. I am
    going to ask you three questions now for you to answer.
        Will you be available to appear before this committee and
    other congressional committees to represent the departmental
    positions and respond to issues of concern to the Congress?
        Ms. Estenoz. Yes.
        The Chairman. Are you aware of any personal holdings,
    investments, or interests that could constitute a conflict of
    interest or create the appearance of such a conflict, should
    you be confirmed and assume the office to which you have been
    nominated by the President?
        Ms. Estenoz. No.
        The Chairman. Are you involved or do you have any assets
    held in a blind trust?
        Ms. Estenoz. No.
        The Chairman. Thank you.
        Now we will start our questions.
        My first question is going to be, basically, on energy, and
    this is the name of this Committee--Energy and Natural
    Resources.
        Ms. Estenoz. Yes, sir.
        The Chairman. Right now, we are pretty much independent, as
    far as the United States of America. We are producing more
    energy than ever in the history of our country. We are number
    one in the world in production, and we have done that with an
    all-in policy. My exasperation with the Administration is how
    they are implementing some of the laws and rules that we passed
    here, and we keep having to fight continuously. Companies have
    been damaged and are suing, and they will win because the
    Administration is outside of the window of the legislation--the
    intent of the legislation. My thing is this--we have produced
    more gas, oil, solar, storage, everything that we have done,
    but we can't be independent unless we start mining our own
    critical minerals, unless we are able to get leases on lands
    where we have plentiful resources, where we should be
    extracting as we transition. That is the hard problem that we
    have here, and the Administration has not listened or has not
    been willing to listen. The Ukraine war made it all so evident
    that the United States of America must be the leader, and
    should be the leader, and they are depending on it in the rest
    of the world.
        Do you believe it is in our best interest to improve our
    energy independence?
        Ms. Estenoz. Yes, I do, Mr. Chairman. American energy is
    good. American energy independence is critical as we address
    the climate crisis, and it is important as we address the
    climate crisis and attempt to reduce greenhouse gas emissions.
    It is important as we seek to secure affordability and
    reliability for the American people, and it's important for our
    national security.
        The Chairman. Do you believe there should be a pause on any
    of the federal leasing as far as lands for coal and gas and oil
    and critical minerals?
        Ms. Estenoz. Well, Senator, I think it's critically
    important that, as you mentioned, as we pursue our transition
    to a clean energy economy that we know that we are going to
    continue oil and gas leasing. We know that, you know, according
    to the Energy Information Agency, currently our consumption is
    something like 83 percent non-renewable, and renewables are
    increasing. And that is a good thing, and we need to continue
    that, but we know that oil and gas and coal are going to be
    part of our energy mix for some time to come. And it is really
    this conversation about what is the mix and how do we conduct
    the transition.
        The Chairman. Do you feel comfortable speaking truth to
    power to your superiors that you answer to when they are going
    a different direction and you know it's not within the laws of
    what should be done, the leasing that we should be doing and
    handling and basically, we are not? We are fighting for every
    lease we have offshore in the Gulf. We are fighting for every
    lease onshore. I am sure you are going to hear from my friend
    here pretty quickly about the unbelievable roadblocks that have
    been put up. It makes no sense at all. So we need somebody that
    will say, these are the facts, this is the law, we should be
    following it.
        Ms. Estenoz. So Senator, and I might repeat this a little
    bit this morning.
        The Chairman. That's okay.
        Ms. Estenoz. But I recognize how important it will be for
    me to earn the confidence and trust of--inside the
    Administration--particularly on energy and public lands issues,
    but also from the members of this Committee. And I will tell
    you that in my 30-year career in Florida, I have never shied
    away from sharing my opinion, but I know that being effective
    in that regard means being a credible person and a thoughtful
    person and a careful person about the knowledge that you are
    imparting. And so, the short answer is yes, I think the
    Administration, and I think all of you deserve me, if I am
    confirmed as Deputy Secretary, to speak frankly and truthfully.
        The Chairman. Well, we appreciate that. We all want you to
    succeed. We really do.
        Ms. Estenoz. Thank you.
        The Chairman. We want you to be upfront and honest with us
    too.
        Ms. Estenoz. Thank you.
        The Chairman. According to the Council on Environmental
    Quality, from 2010 to 2018, Interior's environmental impact
    statements averaged five years to get to a record of decision--
    five years to just make a decision, which is absolutely
    horrible. It's a problem for all types of energy, including
    those this Administration wants to transition to. I will give
    you an example. According to a 2023 study by Stanford
    University, two-thirds of all solar projects requiring an
    environmental impact statement are litigated, and half of all
    renewable projects are canceled, more than any other type of
    energy project. So it does not behoove anybody for an agency
    not to be efficient in giving us some results quickly, giving
    us some direction, and making sure that we can follow through.
        Ms. Estenoz. Yes, so Senator, it's interesting, I have been
    on both sides of NEPA. I have been, as I have Fish and Wildlife
    Service----
        The Chairman. Do you believe we need more permitting
    reforms?
        Ms. Estenoz. I'm sorry.
        The Chairman. Do you believe permitting right now is
    hindering all of us?
        Ms. Estenoz. Well, what I would say is that I think there
    is a lot to be done on permitting. So first, let me say about
    the National Environmental Policy Act--it is a very important
    body of law. We know that NEPA is an important part of making
    sure that projects, you know, that we are able to initiate
    projects and protect important resources in the process. But we
    also know that NEPA takes longer, often, than any of us want it
    to take or than it should take. So the Administration has
    promulgated some new regulations with respect to NEPA. I think
    this is particularly important as we try to deploy renewable
    energy.
        The Chairman. We had some NEPA reforms in our agreement on
    finances and debt.
        Ms. Estenoz. That's right.
        The Chairman. But they have backtracked on that.
        Ms. Estenoz. Well, Senator, I think my feeling about
    permitting and NEPA--these are big topics. So I have been a
    customer of permitting programs before. And I have spent a lot
    of time talking to the regulated industry and folks who are
    coming to us with permit requests. And I have sort of distilled
    down what the pillars of customer service are when it comes to
    permitting. And it feels to me like, you know, projects need
    consistency, they need transparency, they need predictability,
    and they need timeliness. And these pillars, if we can drive
    our permitting toward these pillars of what I call customer
    service and think about the permitted, the regulated community
    as our customers, and then we can act and I am sure we will
    talk----
        The Chairman. That would be refreshing.
        Ms. Estenoz. Yes.
        The Chairman. I'm so sorry. I am going to have to cut you
    short because I am way over my time.
        Ms. Estenoz. I'm so sorry.
        The Chairman. Oh, no, it's not your fault. It's my fault.
        Ms. Estenoz. We will talk more about it, I am sure.
        The Chairman. We will, I know that.
        And I will turn to Senator Barrasso now.
        Ms. Estenoz. Yes, sir. Sorry.
        Senator Barrasso. Thanks, Mr. Chairman.
        I wanted to start with something you talked about early in
    your testimony--endangered species list, recovery, and
    delisting. You know, the Greater Yellowstone ecosystem
    population of grizzly bears----
        Ms. Estenoz. Yes, sir.
        Senator Barrasso [continuing]. Fully recovered for 20
    years. I understand why they went on the list initially, down
    to a hundred--now well over a thousand, spread way beyond the
    area that people were hoping they would stay in that we knew
    that they were not going to stay, as they continue to grow.
    Grizzly bears are still listed as threatened under the ESA. The
    number of bears is far greater than the number required for
    delisting by the Fish and Wildlife Service.
        Ms. Estenoz. Yes, sir.
        Senator Barrasso. Wyoming has played an important role, as
    a state, in leading this recovery. So as Assistant Secretary,
    you will have the authority over Fish and Wildlife Services.
    When can we expect the Service to delist the grizzly bear?
        Ms. Estenoz. Thank you so much for this great question, and
    if Mr. Daines joins us later, I think we will get it again.
        [Laughter.]
        Ms. Estenoz. It's such a good one. So first of all, let me
    agree with you, Senator Barrasso, and congratulate Wyoming and
    everyone who has been working on bears for all these years that
    the Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem recovery management area
    population has met its recovery criteria. You are absolutely
    right. It has met and exceeded its recovery criteria. And that
    is fantastic news, and it's not just Greater Yellowstone, by
    the way, it's also the Northern Continental Divide that has met
    its recovery criteria too. So what does that tell us? It tells
    us bears are doing really well in important parts, and
    particularly in Wyoming and Montana.
        There is a petition before us. Wyoming has petitioned us to
    delist the Greater Yellowstone. They have asked us to find the
    population, a distinct population segment. And so that is the
    sort of arcane part of the law that we are trying to work
    through. Congress has asked us to use that designation
    sparingly. And we are also looking at our delisting criteria.
    So what I would say to you, Senator, is that with the ESA, the
    question is delist, list--it's also the path you take to get to
    that decision that matters when it comes to whether or not a
    court will overturn it or not or sustain it. And so, it's
    really the path that we are working through, the path that
    Wyoming has asked us to follow.
        So I appreciate the question. And what I want to say to you
    is, regardless of the outcome of my nomination, I will continue
    to work with Wyoming on that particular issue.
        Senator Barrasso. Great.
        In August of last year, the BLM issued a draft resource
    management plan for the Rock Springs Field Office. This plan
    would block or severely restrict access to over 3.5 million
    acres of federal land in Southwest Wyoming. If finalized, the
    plan would devastate the livelihoods of the people and the
    communities in my state. The governor, congressional
    delegation, state legislature, county commissioners--across the
    board, everyone strongly opposes what the Secretary has come
    out with. So far, the Department has done little to address any
    of our concerns. If confirmed, what would you do differently?
        Ms. Estenoz. Yes, so thank you, Senator. You are right,
    it's a BLM RMP process, and I am not involved in those
    processes, but I am very much aware of Rock Springs. I am very
    much aware of the concern in Wyoming and the engagement in
    Wyoming and how important it is. As a plan, it covers quite a
    large area. You are absolutely right. I also understand and am
    very grateful, just on behalf of the Department, for the
    incredibly constructive input that folks in Wyoming have
    provided, in particular. I am particularly grateful to the
    Governor for his leadership in really facilitating that input.
    I have heard both the Secretary and the BLM Director say to
    this Committee that when the final plan comes out that we
    expect that input to be reflected in that final plan. If I am
    confirmed, Senator, depending on where the plan is, you know, I
    would welcome--if you think it's important and if I am invited
    to come to Wyoming and talk to folks about how they are feeling
    about the plan.
        Senator Barrasso. Well, we would love to have you.
        Ms. Estenoz. Thank you.
        Senator Barrasso. One final question. In May, the Bureau of
    Land Management took steps to prohibit coal leasing in the
    Powder River Basin. Last year, the Powder River Basin
    represented about 45 percent of all the coal mined and used in
    the United States. Ms. Stone-Manning has said that existing
    leases will be able to meet our coal demand in the future. I
    doubt that. She isn't capable of assessing our future coal
    demand. I do not think she is capable of doing an objective
    decision on this. Where do you stand on future leasing?
        Ms. Estenoz. Thank you, Senator.
        Yes, I am familiar with Powder River Basin--growing
    increasingly familiar in preparation for this Committee
    hearing. And yes, coal, even as demand for coal falls, it's
    still part of the energy mix, particularly, almost exclusively
    in the important sector of electricity generation, and I
    understand that. If I am confirmed as Deputy Secretary, I would
    seek to understand, at the appropriate level, the deepest
    level, this argument about, sort of, you know----
        Senator Barrasso. That is the question, you know, should
    the Department end new leasing in the Powder River Basin?
        Ms. Estenoz. Right and----
        Senator Barrasso. Fundamental question.
        Ms. Estenoz. Yes, well, so, you know, I think if I am
    confirmed, I would need to understand the issue better,
    Senator, particularly as it relates to the debate you have just
    mentioned, which is that we have a lot of capacity in existing
    leases, and whether or not we believe that existing capacity is
    adequate. You disagree. I would, as the Deputy Secretary, I
    would come to understand that debate better.
        Senator Barrasso. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Ms. Estenoz. Thank you.
        The Chairman. Yes, that is a tough one because we are
    concerned about the Administration not following the law. The
    land and resources belong to all of us.
        Ms. Estenoz. Yes.
        The Chairman. And we need that. And we need to have a
    pathway forward. These are long-term propositions and
    investments. People aren't making them now if they don't have
    leases to go on. Mining operations can't start and stop like
    any other.
        Ms. Estenoz. Right.
        The Chairman. They have to continue on. If not, you are
    going to thwart them all.
        With that, we turn to Senator Cortez Masto.
        Senator Cortez Masto. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
        I am actually going to yield my place in the queue here to
    my esteemed colleague from Colorado who has to preside
    relatively quickly over the Senate.
        The Chairman. That is very kind of you.
        Senator Hickenlooper.
        Senator Hickenlooper. I appreciate that. Thank you,
    Senator.
        The Chairman. You owe her now, you know that, don't you?
        [Laughter.]
        Senator Hickenlooper. I do, trust me. I am fully aware.
        And Ms. Estenoz, thank you so much for your service. I want
    the record to show that there are few people that work in the
    Federal Government who I hear Republicans and Democrats both
    praising, from the time when she was working at non-profits and
    in her years of public service. So we are grateful for all your
    public service and for taking on this new challenge.
        Ms. Estenoz. Thank you, Senator.
        Senator Hickenlooper. I want to talk a moment about water.
    And it's hard to shift right to water because you talked about
    the Yellowstone Basin area, where I did my research when I was
    a geologist for my master's, and then the Powder River Basin,
    which, of course, in politics in Wyoming is famous for
    political opponents accusing each other of being just like the
    Powder River--a mile wide and an inch deep. It's a famous
    political jargon out there.
        The Colorado River is at a critical point. After decades of
    drought and aridification in the Basin, state and water
    officials are working assiduously to envision long-term water
    management for the river after the current operational
    guidelines expire in 2026. You have a wealth of experience in
    water management in your time in South Florida, particularly
    with respect to the Everglades--that river of grass, as Marjory
    Stoneman Douglas once put it. You are someone who knows rivers
    and understands water and water management. You know how
    important it is to rely on state and locally led solutions to
    where the rubber meets the road for confronting these
    challenges. When you look at the challenges we face in the
    Colorado River Basin, how do you see the path forward? What is
    your perspective?
        Ms. Estenoz. Thank you, Senator. And let me first say how
    proud I think all of us should be, everyone should be, for the
    tremendous work to stave off a crisis in the Colorado River
    Basin in the face of record drought. And the reason I credit
    everyone is because, you know, the place that we find ourselves
    in now was really the outcome of bringing everyone together--
    the seven basin states, the tribes, and in particular, giving
    the tribes a meaningful seat at the table to reach a consensus
    in this interim period. And what I would say is, my outlook
    post-2026 is really good because we have sort of demonstrated
    to ourselves that we can do it and we have got the capacity
    now, the developing of additional muscle memory for that. And I
    think what we learned in Florida is that the only path forward
    on water is a path we travel together. There is no other way to
    manage water for the future than to bring everyone to the table
    and to try to find a consensus way forward. That is my 30 years
    of experience in water management. I feel particularly
    fortunate that we have Commissioner Touton at the table. She
    seems to me to have been a truly positive force in the Colorado
    River.
        So what I would say to you, even in my current position,
    you know, I have some interest on the Colorado River in my
    current portfolio, and what I would say is that I am very
    optimistic for our post-2026 future.
        Senator Hickenlooper. Well, I share your admiration of
    Camille Touton. She has appeared here a couple times herself
    and has done a remarkable job of both providing the leadership,
    but also the technical background.
        Ms. Estenoz. That's right.
        Senator Hickenlooper. Which, I think, you bring the same
    elements to the table.
        Ms. Estenoz. Thank you.
        Senator Hickenlooper. In Colorado, there's now an option to
    add a state park pass. We call it the Keep Colorado Wild Pass--
    right on your annual car registration when you re-register your
    car. In the first year of using this model, the state has
    secured over 1.5 million passholders, over $40 million in
    revenue that goes directly to benefit parks, wildlife, search
    and rescue efforts. It also demonstrates the appeal and the
    demand for outdoor recreation in Colorado, where we are lucky
    to have some of the best opportunities around, but recognizing
    that these opportunities are literally all across the country,
    as you know well. How is the Department of the Interior
    collaborating with state agencies, including state offices of
    outdoor recreation, to ensure continued innovation as the
    demand for recreation on state and federal lands continues to
    grow?
        Ms. Estenoz. Thank you, Senator. It is such a good and
    important question. I come from a state where we like to be
    outside a lot and recreate, and I appreciate very much
    Colorado's model. I had not heard about the state pass
    associated with your car registration. The Department of the
    Interior, one of our very important missions--both on our
    public lands, our BLM lands, and their multi-use purposes and
    then, of course, the National Park Service--is recreation.
    That's why people come. In the Park Service, we are working on
    a number of innovations, including apps that help folks plan
    their trips, help folks understand ahead of time, trying to
    think of ourselves as a recreation and tourism organization and
    understand how people plan their visits to places like national
    parks. They tend to plan ahead of time. It is kind of the
    modern way we travel now. And so that is a big part of it.
        We are trying very hard to encourage visitors to seek more
    than just the top 50 visited parks and recognize that we have
    recreational opportunities, not only in the rest of the park
    system, but that often, parks, to your point, to visit a
    national park, could also be to visit a beautiful state park or
    a county park. And so, really partnering with local governments
    and states to figure out how we can leverage each other's
    recreational opportunities for the benefit of the American
    public.
        Senator Hickenlooper. That is exactly the right attitude.
        Great, thank you. I yield back. Thank you so much.
        Ms. Estenoz. Thank you, Senator.
        The Chairman. Senator Cortez Masto.
        Senator Cortez Masto. Thank you.
        Assistant Secretary, welcome, great to see you. Thank you
    for visiting with me in my office.
        I am going to just get right to the heart of it. I
    appreciate your comments so far. I think you have a great
    reputation so far. I think this Committee is going to test it.
    One thing that you should know is that for Westerners, we are
    aligned on a lot of the issues, and the party politics stops at
    the state line. We have a lot of issues in common. One of them
    being this--and I am going to talk to you about it--most of the
    land is owned by the Federal Government in the West.
        Ms. Estenoz. Yes.
        Senator Cortez Masto. In Nevada, it's over 80 percent. In
    some of my counties, it's over 90 percent.
        Ms. Estenoz. Right.
        Senator Cortez Masto. So it requires a great partnership.
    One of the things I have asked the Secretary and many working
    with her, is to do just this--Nevada needs a statewide resource
    plan.
        Ms. Estenoz. Right.
        Senator Cortez Masto. Working with the Federal Government
    on how we are going to manage all those lands in conjunction
    with the state needs, our local government needs, and our
    private sector needs, as well as our conservation needs. The
    challenge I have is, because you own so much of the land, we
    are also getting all these federal rules coming through
    requiring different things and nothing is working together. I
    need a state resource plan. It will probably be the first ever
    done by a state, but that is what I am looking for. So I am
    hoping you are helping us get to that point that will help
    people in my state manage, not just renewable energy, but so
    many other things that we need to manage throughout the State
    of Nevada, in conjunction with the partnership with the Federal
    Government.
        Are you willing to work with me?
        Ms. Estenoz. Absolutely, Senator. I will tell you, in my
    career, when I engage with community and with stakeholders, the
    thing that is universally frustrating for them is inconsistency
    in government, is when they feel like they are getting a run-
    around or they feel like rules apply to this here, but then
    they are different over here. And so, to the extent that we can
    address some of that and fix it in a statewide plan,
    absolutely, if I am confirmed as Deputy Secretary, I really
    look forward to working with you and ensuring that, you know,
    that we are working together.
        Senator Cortez Masto. Thank you.
        And let me mention, in Nevada, people don't even realize
    this--there are 28 federally recognized tribes. And so part of
    that conversation is bringing them in, making sure there is
    tribal consultation and we are all working together, as the
    stakeholders are all around the table, like you said. That is
    what you have been so focused on throughout your career, and I
    appreciate that.
        Ms. Estenoz. Thank you.
        Senator Cortez Masto. I am going to focus on a couple of
    things that I need your help with in Nevada. When BLM Director
    Tracy Stone-Manning was before our Committee last month, I
    talked to her about how I recently pressed the Department of
    Housing and Urban Development and the Department of the
    Interior to update regulations that allow federal land in
    Nevada to be eligible for affordable housing projects.
    Affordable housing is necessary. In fact, the BLM Director
    signed a new agreement last August to make eligible public
    lands available for a $100 an acre, and that is far below the
    fair market value for these lands. We urgently need you to be
    at the top of this and pushing this and making this happen in
    our state.
        So I am hoping I can get your commitment to work with us to
    make sure that we move forward in identifying this federal land
    for affordable housing.
        Ms. Estenoz. Senator, you are touching on an issue that is
    at the front-of-mind for me in my current role, and if I am
    confirmed as Deputy Secretary, I do commit to working with you
    on this. Housing--employee housing, and affordable housing,
    particularly, but our nexus to affordable housing, we see it
    with our own employees, you know, who have a hard time
    affording to live, you know, in these areas. So yes, Senator, I
    look forward to working with you.
        Senator Cortez Masto. Thank you.
        I am going to ask for another commitment. Just recently we
    have the Shoshone-Paiute Tribe of Duck Valley Reservation. They
    are on the border of Nevada and Idaho. They are in both.
        Ms. Estenoz. Yes.
        Senator Cortez Masto. They have a school that they have had
    for years that was on federal land that the BIA had access to
    and control over. Over the years, we have discovered that the
    BIA improperly disposed of fuels and pesticides on that land
    and has contaminated it.
        Ms. Estenoz. Okay.
        Senator Cortez Masto. The State of Nevada has come in and
    said we are going to move your school to protect our kids, but
    there's no remediation by the Federal Government. I need your
    help in making sure that happens. I have talked to the
    Secretary about making sure that happens, making sure that we
    get commitments. There have been commitments, but failed dates
    of commitment happening. So I need somebody from the Federal
    Government that is going to be a partner and I invite you to
    come. I was just there for a high school graduation. I invite
    you to come out to the reservation to see for yourself. So I
    hope I can get that commitment from you.
        Ms. Estenoz. Thank you, Senator. And yes, this is a new
    issue for me, and if I am confirmed as Deputy Secretary, I
    absolutely commit to working with you on it.
        Senator Cortez Masto. And then, finally, again, we have a
    community--Ash Meadows National Wildlife Refuge and Death
    Valley National Park. You know it, Death Valley National Park,
    I hope. So----
        Ms. Estenoz. Yes.
        Senator Cortez Masto. In Nye County, right? So I toured
    this area. I know it well. I grew up in southern Nevada. There
    is a challenge we have there that we are trying to protect this
    land and the Devils Hole pupfish out of that area from any type
    of mining and mineral drilling that is going to impact the
    groundwater that our tribes rely on and that the local
    community relies on. And so there has been a letter that I have
    sent to Secretary Haaland requesting the Department to commence
    a 20-year mineral withdrawal of sensitive areas in that area,
    in that watershed. Everybody in my community, everybody in that
    community supports this, from the county, to the tribes, to
    everyone else. And so, I just need a commitment that you are
    going to work with us to address and protect this sensitive
    land.
        Ms. Estenoz. Senator, I will commit to working with you and
    understanding this issue better. Whether I am confirmed as
    Deputy Secretary or not, this is something that is obviously in
    my current portfolio, so I am happy to commit to learning more
    and working with you.
        Senator Cortez Masto. Thank you. Congratulations again.
    Welcome to your husband and your family that is listening as
    well.
        Ms. Estenoz. Thank you.
        Senator Cortez Masto. Thank you.
        Ms. Estenoz. Thank you, Senator.
        The Chairman. Thank you.
        Senator Murkowski.
        Senator Murkowski. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and good
    morning, Ms. Estenoz.
        Ms. Estenoz. Good morning.
        Senator Murkowski. Welcome back to the Committee and thank
    you for the time that you gave me and my team yesterday. I
    appreciate that. It was a good opportunity to speak directly
    with you about the many decisions, really the torrent of
    decisions that we have seen out of the Department, which have
    effectively restricted access and that simply prevent
    development within the State of Alaska. These decisions have a
    major impact on a state where more than 200 million acres of
    land are managed by the Department of the Interior. They impact
    our jobs. They impact our economy, really, our ability to
    function as a state, both now and then into the future. But
    really, of late, and it seems like things have just accelerated
    the closer we get to an election time, but it seems like the
    Department is acting more like an environmental activist rather
    than a land manager, failing to recognize that we are a state
    where people live there, we work there, we protect the land
    there like nobody else can or will.
        We have kind of reached the point where we dread Friday. We
    dread Friday afternoon because that is when the Administration
    has seemingly been dropping these decisions with no notice, and
    that was something that you and I discussed yesterday. No
    notice to the congressional delegation on issues that are
    specific and unique to one state alone. So whether it was the
    rejection of the Ambler project, keeping 28 million acres
    locked down in public land orders, the PLOs, transforming our
    petroleum reserve from a place for energy production to,
    effectively, a de facto wilderness, or the looming evisceration
    of the coastal plain oil and gas program that we expect later
    this month. But you take into account all of these actions and
    many more and it's not hard to see why so many Alaskans are
    disappointed, they are frustrated, they are angry with the
    Administration's policy. And the sense that we have and that I
    hear directly from so many is that we are being treated like
    one big park. Everybody wants to come and see Alaska, but they
    want the jobs for Alaskans to basically be carrying the bags of
    the tourists rather than good, honest, year-round jobs where we
    are able to access our resources and provide, not only for the
    benefit of our citizens, but of the country.
        But we are losing. We are losing the access to our lands.
    Instead of recognizing our very strong history of responsible
    development, the Administration seems to hold it against us. I
    think the Administration is rejecting some of our country's
    best opportunities for access, whether it's for critical
    minerals or other resources. And so we see this, and then on
    the other hand, we see countries like Russia, like Iran, like
    Venezuela, being almost rewarded, effectively, for abuse of
    their resources. They look the other way when it comes to human
    rights and environmental abuses. You look to Mozambique. You
    look to Congo. You look to China. And so we have just got this
    contrast that just makes no sense to the average Alaskan. And a
    point that I shared with you and I feel really strongly about--
    the Department is not keeping their commitment to us, but they
    are also not keeping their commitment to the law. They are just
    not keeping the commitment to the law. The latest example being
    the process to lift PLO 5150. That was abruptly canceled. We
    are not trusting Interior to follow the law when it comes to
    consultation with Alaska Natives or the State of Alaska in
    making these decisions.
        So you are in a tough spot here. I grant you that. It is
    the Administration's policies that I think have kind of stacked
    the deck against you as a nominee. And I understand that, but I
    also need you to understand where Alaskans are coming from when
    they look at this Administration, when they look at the
    Department of the Interior and they see how this heavy hand is
    coming down on us. So I have got one question for you, and I
    need you to know that I can't vote to confirm you if I get the
    sense that you think everything is going okay in Alaska and
    that you would just simply continue the Department's--just the
    continuation of the heavy handedness coming out of the
    Department that is effectively shutting down the state.
        So the question to you is, why should I support your
    nomination?
        Ms. Estenoz. Senator, first of all, let me thank you for
    the time you gave me yesterday.
        Senator Murkowski. I appreciated it too, I really did.
        Ms. Estenoz. I really was so grateful, not only for the
    time, but for the frankness, which is continuing now, which I
    actually appreciate so much. I went home last night. I thought
    about our conversation throughout the night. I woke up in the
    middle of the night, I thought about our conversation some
    more. And that is the kind of frank conversation that I really
    appreciate.
        So what we talked about yesterday, and what I said earlier
    right before you came into the room, is that I know that I will
    have to earn both the trust and confidence of everyone both
    inside the Administration and on this dais. And all I can bring
    to this conversation today, and all I can say to you today, all
    I can do is compare myself to myself, which is to my 30-year
    career and the way that I have worked until this point. We have
    worked with you in my current portfolio, and we talked a little
    bit about it yesterday. I feel like we have tried very, very
    hard to go to Alaska, and you know, I have been to Alaska in
    this job, and I went, specifically, to listen. And we have
    tried to do that. We have tried to think transformatively. I
    have spent a lot of times, as I mentioned to you yesterday, I
    began during the presidential transition, even before I was in
    this job, learning about Alaska, trying to understand Alaska
    because it is so--it is such a different place. It's such a
    special place. I mean, just the statutory framework is
    completely different.
        And as I mentioned to you, Senator Sullivan said to me
    early on, you need to take ANILCA training, and, by golly, I
    took ANILCA training. And he was right. So what I want you to
    know is that--and I will say this a couple more times--is that,
    you know, my career is what it's been, but my personal life is
    also a factor here. You know, I know, because I was part of an
    energy-dependent family. My father was in the energy industry
    when we lived in Louisiana. We were a young family and our
    income depended on, you know, on oil and gas in the Gulf. So I
    understand that, as I said in my opening statement, that every
    issue we work on, whether it's a species issue or an energy
    issue, it's really a people issue. And that is what I would
    bring to the Deputy Secretary's job.
        I know that I--my resume, you know--I have not worked in
    energy and public lands, but I know the Department really well.
    I have been a senior leader at the Department for 11 years. I
    know how it works. In my current portfolio I have intersected
    with energy, I have intersected with public lands. And I have a
    strong leadership style, Senator, that is--it's a combination.
    The engineer in me drives me toward knowledge, data,
    understanding issues very, very well, and very deeply so that
    my decisions can be thoughtful. The personality part of me is
    that my leadership is relationship-based. That means having a
    strong relationship with you and with your team and with the
    Alaska delegation. That is what I can assure you that I will
    bring to the Deputy Secretary job because I do not have any
    other way to work. I don't know any other way to work.
        The Chairman. Thank you.
        Ms. Estenoz. That's my answer.
        Senator Murkowski. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        The Chairman. Ms. Estenoz, I think what we are trying to
    tell you is that we believe that government should be our
    partner.
        Ms. Estenoz. Yes.
        The Chairman. Not our provider and not our decider, which
    is what they have decided to do, and that is why some of us who
    come from energy-rich states, which basically fuel this
    country, feel like we are getting left behind, we are basically
    not needed anymore, and none of them seem to understand. So
    what we are asking for is that partnership when you come into
    this position.
        So with that, we will go right to Senator King.
        Senator King. I note the Senator from the grizzly bears is
    at the dais, welcome.
        The Chairman. You're ready. You're all teed up for grizzly
    bears.
        Senator King. We will be disappointed if we don't learn
    something about grizzly bears.
        Mr. Chairman, I want to address Senator Murkowski's
    question and hopefully make you feel better about this nominee
    based upon personal experience. About a year and a half ago,
    the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service proposed a large wildlife
    refuge area in western Maine. It happens to be an area of the
    state that is of incredible scenic and recreational value. It
    also is an area that has had tremendous local conservation
    efforts. The communities and the private sector have done
    enormous amounts of conservation, setting land aside. The
    communities contacted this nominee. I contacted her, as did
    others in the delegation. And she listened. And she listened to
    the communities and she listened to their concerns and she
    weighed the facts and made a decision that this area did not
    need a wildlife refuge because it was already, in many ways, in
    a protected status. That's what I look for in a person in a
    position like this, someone who will pay attention to local
    concerns and listen. So I wanted to thank you for that and I
    think it speaks well of your approach and I think the Chairman
    put it well, we should be partners here, not adversaries, and
    we should try to find solutions to problems that are mutually
    beneficial.
        A couple of other points. Five-year EISs. That should be
    history.
        Ms. Estenoz. Yes.
        Senator King. And I never want to hear about a five-year
    EIS. This Committee has heard me say this numerous times. A
    month ago, we had the anniversary of D-Day. Eisenhower retook
    Europe in 11 months. To me, that is the standard for how long
    things should take. And a five-year EIS is just a disservice to
    the process and to the citizens of the country.
        Secondly, on the issue of permitting--we need permitting
    reform and the expediting of permitting in order to achieve a
    clean energy future. We are going to have to expand the grid
    substantially because of new demands of electrification in our
    society, and we can't hold up important, meaningful
    transmission projects or mining of critical minerals to supply
    EV batteries with a cumbersome, slow war of attrition in
    permitting. So I think we need to be--we have always thought of
    permitting as a, you know, as a sort of stopping process. We
    have to see it differently now. There may be environmental
    detriment, but there may be enormous environmental benefit, and
    I think that has to be part of the calculation.
        Finally, I am worried about deferred maintenance on our
    public lands and our parks. Four years ago, we passed the Great
    American Outdoors Act. It was virtually unanimously supported
    by this Committee--historic legislation to pay down the backlog
    of maintenance. But the problem is the Department and the
    Administration are not funding maintenance adequately, and we
    are digging the hole again. Can you commit to me that you will
    advocate for adequate funding for maintenance of our national
    parks and public lands? It's sort of a mundane subject, but we
    are not going to be able to pass a Great American Outdoors Act
    every five years and convince our colleagues that this is
    necessary when, in fact, the system is somehow expecting it,
    and therefore not providing the maintenance on an annual basis
    that is necessary. So talk to me about that issue.
        Ms. Estenoz. Yes, thank you, Senator. And let me just
    first, just say thank you very much. It was a pleasure to work
    with you on the proposed refuge, and I am really glad we got to
    a great place, and I am grateful that you picked up the phone
    and called me and we were able to work together.
        Senator King. Which I will continue to do, I assure you.
        Ms. Estenoz. Please do. I am sure you will, and I welcome
    it.
        And because both Senator Manchin and you mentioned the word
    partnership, I appreciate that word very much. The entire time
    that I have been at Interior, this approach as partner, and in
    my case, it has been states, tribes, local governments, and
    stakeholder groups--very well-organized stakeholder groups. And
    as I said earlier in my remarks, I have found the only way
    really to advance policy is to come at it in partnership.
        On deferred maintenance, I could not agree with you more,
    Senator. And what I would say is if--I would love to work with
    you on how we can best--we can do better communicating our
    needs. Cyclic maintenance is what we call the annual
    maintenance. There is no question that inadequate cyclic
    maintenance digs the deferred maintenance hole deeper, and we
    don't want that. Deferred maintenance is all about catching up.
    And so----
        Senator King. By the way, deferred maintenance is a debt.
        Ms. Estenoz. Yes, right, right.
        Senator King. It's going to have to be paid eventually, and
    usually it will be more expensive than if we did it now.
        Ms. Estenoz. That is a great way to describe it. And so, I
    commit to working with you, and I welcome working with you and
    others who are concerned about deferred maintenance, you know,
    on not only advocating for additional resources, but is there
    something we can do better about communicating the need that we
    think would be persuasive on this point of, as you say, this
    kind of dull, not super-exciting, but incredibly important
    issue of maintenance.
        Senator King. Thank you.
        Ms. Estenoz. Thank you.
        Senator King. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        The Chairman. Thank you, Senator.
        And now we have Senator Daines.
        Senator Daines. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        I want to thank my co-chair of the National Parks
    Subcommittee. Angus and I keep the National Parks Subcommittee.
    We call ourselves co-chairs. No matter who is in majority
    control, we are co-chairs, and that is the way we will continue
    to operate that as long as we are both on that Committee. So
    Angus, thank you.
        Thanks for your service, Assistant Secretary Estenoz, and
    congratulations on your nomination to be the number two over
    there at DOI.
        Ms. Estenoz. Thank you.
        Senator Daines. I look forward to hearing more today about
    how you think about managing there, should you be confirmed. I
    will tell you, last night, I was going back and forth with Cam
    Sholly, Yellowstone National Park. He was grateful for your
    outreach to him. Angus, the co-chair of the Parks Committee,
    should know that because of the fast action of the rangers at
    Yellowstone National Park, acting on some credible
    intelligence, they prevented what could have been a mass
    casualty event over the Fourth of July holidays. They
    confronted a shooter and they killed him. One ranger was
    wounded. Thankfully, he's going to be okay, but had surgery.
    But I know Cam was grateful for your outreach to him----
        Ms. Estenoz. Thank you.
        Senator Daines [continuing]. During the time, and not only
    what happened in Yellowstone Park over the Fourth of July
    holidays but also with the housing issues there, with the flood
    that we dealt with, and I know Cam is grateful for your
    outreach and your support, and I am too. Thank you.
        Ms. Estenoz. Thank you, Senator. Thank you.
        Senator Daines. I want to talk about the St. Mary site. You
    thought I would talk grizzly bears right out of the gate. I
    will get to grizzly bears here, but I want to talk about the
    St. Mary siphon failure.
        Ms. Estenoz. Yes.
        Senator Daines. This includes the Bureau of Reclamation in
    terms of what we need to do to recover. It's currently working
    to address the catastrophic failure. We had two siphons from
    the St. Mary River, which provide water, essentially irrigators
    at Montana's Hi-Line. If confirmed, will you work with
    Reclamation and the farmers and ranchers on the Hi-Line? The
    Hi-Line is the northern part of our state, up close to the
    Canadian border. It's very arid. It's dry. We depend on water
    to stay alive up there, and the irrigation systems in the St.
    Mary infrastructure. Just want to get your commitment that you
    would work with us and use all available resources at your
    disposal to replace these siphons and ensure the work is done
    as quickly as possible.
        Ms. Estenoz. Senator, I appreciate the question, and I'm
    sorry to hear that we have a water management infrastructure
    failure. No one knows how serious those are better than I do,
    and if I am confirmed, I absolutely will work with you and with
    BOR to ensure that we are addressing that issue adequately.
        Senator Daines. Yes, this is one of the situations where
    you can't miss one irrigation season. Right now, we have got
    high temperatures. We have had a cool June and July, and
    suddenly the temperature spiked. July in Montana is higher
    temperatures and it gets to be very----
        Ms. Estenoz. And Senator, I'm sorry, may I just quickly--
    may I thank you for acknowledging the incident in Yellowstone,
    and let me just say to the Committee, Senator Daines is
    correct. The bravery of our law enforcement officers in
    Yellowstone did, indeed, likely prevent a disaster and
    potentially a mass casualty event. It is true that one of our
    officers was shot, a very young officer. He is going to be
    okay. He is with his family now. And if Senator Risch was here,
    I would thank him, because our officer was flown to Idaho
    Falls, and the medical professionals in Idaho cared for him and
    we are very grateful for that. So thank you for raising that.
        Senator Daines. Of course, and thanks for your outreach.
        Ms. Estenoz. Yes.
        Senator Daines. I do want to talk grizzly bears.
        Ms. Estenoz. Okay, yes, sir.
        Senator Daines. Of course. So last February, of course, FWS
    initiated not a 17-month status review--it's called a 12-month
    status review for a reason. If they want to initiate a 17-month
    status review, we would be expecting the result here this
    month. But it's a 12-month status review. So you know, the data
    is very compelling in terms of where the recovery target is,
    where the actual populations are.
        Ms. Estenoz. Yes.
        Senator Daines. My question is, would you help us and focus
    on getting this 12-month review done that should have been
    completed in February?
        Ms. Estenoz. Senator, so thank you, and it is good to talk
    grizzlies with you again. And first of all, let me acknowledge
    that I agree with you 100 percent. Not that my agreement
    matters, because the facts are what they are. The Greater
    Yellowstone Ecosystem population is recovered. The numbers from
    2022--965. Not only that, as I said earlier, the Northern
    Continental Divide population is also recovered, at more than
    1,100 bears. And we do have this petition in front of us that
    is asking us to delist the GYE as a distinct population
    segment. It is that definition that, you know, we are working
    through. It has got--you know, we tried to do that before. We
    have tried to do that twice before, and the courts have
    rejected it. And so, we are working through that. We are
    working through our delisting criteria. And in the meantime, I
    want to say, because I didn't say it earlier, when we were
    chatting about grizzlies, I just, I need to say for the record
    how grateful we are to both Montana and Wyoming for the
    stewardship of grizzly bears. And grizzly bears are doing well
    in those states because the states are taking good care of
    grizzly bears. And we know that.
        And then, I also want to say for the record that we want
    grizzlies to be recovered and delisted. I want to say that
    without reservation. We want that. I want that for all of our
    listed species, right? A delisting is a celebration. But as I
    mentioned, in the ESA, the path that you use to get there also
    matters. It's not just the listing decision, it's the path you
    take. That is often what courts will attack. So we want to make
    sure we have got the path right.
        Senator Daines. Yeah, thank you, and I agree, but there's
    no reason we can't get this 12-month study wrapped up.
        Ms. Estenoz. Sorry.
        Senator Daines. We're at 17 months.
        Ms. Estenoz. Yes, sir, thank you.
        Senator Daines. The question is, we have got to get this
    wrapped up. Now, you all at Interior can decide to slow-roll
    this thing to the election if you would like. I think that's a
    big mistake. I think it violates the integrity of this process
    if we don't just commit to the 12-month, which should have been
    done in February. It is now the middle of July.
        Ms. Estenoz. Yes, Senator, I can assure you that this
    process is running based on what the needs of the process are,
    and I agree with you, you know, driving toward a decision as
    soon as possible.
        Senator Daines. When is it going to be done?
        Ms. Estenoz. Well, I think we're--I don't have a date for
    you, but as I mentioned to you when we met a couple of weeks
    ago, this issue may be--it's in the top five for the Fish and
    Wildlife Service leadership. I can tell you Martha has been out
    to Montana and Wyoming now a couple of times in the last month.
        Senator Daines. Yes.
        Ms. Estenoz. So this is a top priority, and I want to stay
    in touch with you also in the days and weeks ahead.
        Senator Daines. I am just a little skeptical----
        Ms. Estenoz. I know it. I know it, Senator.
        Senator Daines [continuing]. That we are going to see this
    get done before the election. I just think we need to get it
    done. I mean, just for the sake of the bears.
        Ms. Estenoz. Agreed.
        Senator Daines. For the sake of the process. I hope we can
    dissolve the politics, if we might be able to, and try to stay
    focused on the science and get this done. I realize you want to
    get a solid review done so it protects ourselves when we get
    litigated in court.
        Ms. Estenoz. Yes. Right.
        Senator Daines. But, I mean, at some point, is it 12
    months--if we gave you two years, I'm afraid you would come
    back here and say we're at 36 months and still thinking about
    it.
        Ms. Estenoz. I appreciate that. I appreciate that, Senator.
    You are right. And we have, you know, it's a little bit further
    complicated because we have three petitions before us that are
    all related. You know----
        Senator Daines. Yes.
        Ms. Estenoz [continuing]. And so, I appreciate it, and as
    always, I will stay in contact with your office in the days and
    weeks ahead.
        Senator Daines. Okay.
        I am well over my time, and the Chairman is very gracious.
        Ms. Estenoz. I'm sorry.
        Senator Daines. I just, I got to talk the Ninth Circuit
    Cottonwood fix. Will you commit to working with this Committee
    to get this bipartisan--voted out of here by voice vote--fix to
    save our forest management industry in the West?
        Ms. Estenoz. Absolutely, Senator. You know, it's one of the
    great regrets. When I was first in front of this Committee in
    2021, you and I agreed, let's work together on Cottonwood, try
    to do an administrative fix. Couldn't get that done. Then, I
    tried, you know, we tried to help and work with you
    statutorily. So yes.
        Senator Daines. Well, and I am grateful we have got, you
    know, I have got my colleagues over on this side of the dais
    here, who have been supportive of this now. I think we are
    ready. We could use your help here to get this across the
    finish line.
        The Chairman. Thank you, Senator. Thank you, thank you,
    thank you.
        Ms. Estenoz. Thank you.
        The Chairman. Senator Hirono.
        Senator Hirono. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Congratulations on your nomination. When you appeared
    before this Committee at your last nomination hearing, I had
    invited you to visit Hawaii, and I understand that you have.
        Ms. Estenoz. I have.
        Senator Hirono. So thank you very much. And I hope that you
    had an opportunity to hear from the people of Hawaii some of
    their major concerns relating to the Department and what the
    Department can do. And in that regard, I did want to thank you
    for your leadership and that of the Secretary for investing
    over $36 million to help conserve some of Hawaii's most
    endangered native bird species. We do not have grizzly bears,
    but we have birds, beautiful birds.
        Ms. Estenoz. Beautiful birds.
        Senator Hirono. So I really appreciated your explaining
    your leadership style, and it was good to hear some specific
    examples of how you have been a listener and your
    responsiveness. And I think part of what we need to do in
    Hawaii, especially, is to reach out to the Native Hawaiian
    community, and I hope that you were able to experience some of
    that when you visited Hawaii. But with regard to the Forest
    Bird Strategy, can you just explain your role in developing and
    implementing the Hawaii Forest Bird Strategy, and how you have
    really included the Native Hawaiian community in developing
    this strategy?
        Ms. Estenoz. Thank you, Senator. And to answer your
    question, Hawaii was a remarkable experience, a transformative
    experience. It was my first visit and I was very grateful to be
    there. We did spend a great deal of time with the Native
    Hawaiian community on a number of issues. And so I was grateful
    for that perspective and experience as well.
        On native Hawaiian birds, we did a lot of work during my
    visit. I got to meet a lot of the folks who are working on
    that. I think one of the pillars of that approach--so we know
    that these incredibly imperiled, very culturally significant
    species are under threat by invasive mosquitoes that
    essentially carry avian malaria. And these mosquitoes are
    actually expanding with climate change. So they are actually
    expanding in elevation, chasing the birds up the sides of the
    caldera and mountains. And one of the pillars of our approach
    here is to engage with the Native Hawaiian community and to
    incorporate cultural and indigenous knowledge in our approaches
    so that we are addressing this crisis in a way that is
    effective and that is also respectful of the cultural
    significance that this species plays. And my role has been to,
    you know, to really provide that leadership and encouragement
    and making sure the program has the resources that it needs,
    and that's what I have done.
        Senator Hirono. Thank you. And by the way, I want to add to
    this discussion my concern also about deferred maintenance, and
    I think our Committee members are very much committed to more
    being done because that is what deferred maintenance is, we
    keep deferring it.
        Ms. Estenoz. Yes.
        Senator Hirono. So thank you very much.
        One of the new issues that will come before you, if you are
    confirmed, is COFA implementation. COFA is something that I
    really worked tirelessly with my colleagues on to get the
    compacts approved, but what's new under the newly approved
    compacts is that the compact citizens who live in the United
    states, and there are many of them--20,000 or so in Hawaii--but
    they are now able to access federal programs and they were not
    able to do that before. So implementation of this 20-year
    agreement with the Freely Associated States--that would be
    Palau, Micronesia, and the Marshall Islands--is a high
    priority, and I would appreciate a status update from the
    Department when it's available about how we are doing with
    providing the kinds of services that they are now able to
    access.
        Ms. Estenoz. Thank you, Senator, and I want to congratulate
    and thank everyone, the members of this Committee, who are
    essential to the reaching the COFA milestone--I know Senator
    Risch, Senator Manchin, yourself, Senator. And the Department
    is absolutely committed. If I am confirmed as Deputy Secretary,
    I will be committed to its implementation. It is absolutely
    critical, not just to meet our obligations to our affiliated
    states, but also for our national security in the Pacific. I
    mean, this is an incredibly important initiative, and it would
    be a high priority for me if I were confirmed as Deputy
    Secretary.
        Senator Hirono. I will look to your leadership on that
    because the COFA agreement involved three different
    departments, and Interior is the lead, but it obviously
    included the DOD and State. And one of the reasons that it took
    longer than I think that it should have taken is that there are
    three departments, and there was a lot of, I wouldn't say
    finger pointing, but somebody had to take responsibility for
    all of this happening. And so I thank your Department for your
    leadership, and you are going to need to continue to do that
    because we have thousands and thousands of COFA citizens who
    are living in our country who need the kind of assistance that
    we can provide and that should have never been taken away from
    them. So thank you very much for your commitment.
        Ms. Estenoz. Thank you, Senator.
        Senator Hirono. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        The Chairman. Thank you, Senator.
        And now we go to Senator Cassidy.
        Senator Cassidy. Thank you. Good morning, ma'am.
        Ms. Estenoz. Good morning, Senator.
        Senator Cassidy. I was pleased to hear that you understand
    the economic impact of the ability of a family to work offshore
    in order to create an opportunity for their daughter to have a
    future such as you have had, because some people are just
    insensitive to that or don't care.
        Now, you mentioned earlier, I am told, a question from
    Senator Manchin, that we will continue leasing, but I am going
    to press you on that. We will continue leasing means sometime
    in the distant future--ten years from now, we may have another
    lease. But as you know, there has to be, kind of, certainty as
    to the flow. Next year we are going to have a lease and the
    year after and the year after, because if you work for a
    company which serves those rigs, you can't have a two-year
    interruption. Everybody is laid off and you can no longer do
    it. So will there be a lease sale in 2024?
        Ms. Estenoz. Senator, so, thank you very much. What I would
    say to you is that we have got a five-year plan. And if I am
    confirmed as the Deputy Secretary, my top priority--I have said
    a piece of this throughout the hearing--it would be to
    immediately, at a deeper level, understand the policy
    implications and our policy decisions in the energy space. And
    this is one of them that is very important. And I would want to
    work with you to understand, for example, our five-year plan,
    the approach to offshore leasing that we proposed.
        Senator Cassidy. So let me stop you for a second.
        Ms. Estenoz. Yes, sir. Thank you.
        Senator Cassidy. In a previous hearing, an acting Deputy
    Secretary suggested that it would take 18 months to process
    this. Well, that will put us into late 2025 and 2026. You're
    thinking, you have been in office for three and a half years.
    If you had started right off the bat, we would have something
    happening now, and then something happening in 2025 and 2026.
    So it seems as if there is foot dragging. I am just, from the
    outside looking in--oh, how long can we stretch it out so that
    yeah, we are technically doing it, but in reality, those
    families that depend upon this income, as your family once did,
    they will be left hanging out to dry, but we don't care because
    we don't want it to happen.
        So I guess my frustration is, why is it always tomorrow
    that this is going to happen? Why didn't it happen when the
    dadgum Administration took office?
        Ms. Estenoz. So Senator, I know this is a frustrating
    response to you, but I am just speaking the truth, which is
    that I have not been part of the policy conversation on energy
    since I have been in the Administration. So if I were confirmed
    as Deputy Secretary, I would be, and I would seek to understand
    the details and the implications at a deeper level at that
    time.
        Senator Cassidy. Well, let me just mention another
    observation.
        Ms. Estenoz. Yes.
        Senator Cassidy. It does seem like there is a strategy of
    death by a thousand cuts. So there has been this latest ruling
    regarding the Rice's whale, in which they have found critical
    habitat, maybe, because there was a single, possible--maybe,
    kind of, we think--could-have-been sighting off of Texas, and
    they know they are off of Florida. And so they are putting a
    corridor in between. So far, not too bad, except where they
    have actually seen the Rice's whale, the corridor is about five
    miles wide, and off the coast of Louisiana, it's anywhere from
    20 to 30 miles wide. That is significant because there is a ten
    mile per hour limitation on speed only for offshore service
    vehicles for the rigs, not for a power boat. So it's like a
    targeted, we are going to make it economically inefficient for
    you to actually drill offshore. Now, you have not been there
    while they are doing this, but that is the sort of thing that
    from the outside looking in, it's just hard to convince me that
    this isn't a strategy of death by a thousand cuts to the people
    who depend upon this industry for their economic livelihood.
        Again, you are going to say, and rightfully so, you have
    not been part of that decision-making, but that will be
    something that I will be kind of looking at. The science seems
    quite convenient--``we are relying on the science,'' but you
    can't help but notice it's five miles wide here, but where
    there is Outer Continental Shelf drilling, it's 20 to 30 miles
    wide. Hmm, that science makes a lot of sense to me--no, it
    doesn't.
        So now that I have been kind of bursting at the head, let
    me go here--revenue sharing. Let me just ask you about this.
        Ms. Estenoz. Yes.
        Senator Cassidy. Revenue sharing. The Land and Water
    Conservation Fund, which I know that the Chairman has used very
    nicely for West Virginia and that Daines was speaking very
    highly of, is funded almost entirely out of oil and gas
    revenues. There is a cap that limits the amount coming to the
    Gulf states, which we use this for coastal restoration. By the
    time this Committee hearing is over, my state would have lost
    about 100 square yards of land to relative sea-level rise. We
    use that money, by our state's constitution, to rebuild our
    coastline. Last year, Louisiana, Texas, Mississippi, and
    Alabama missed out on BOEM, on about $216 million that would
    have gone to local resiliency in these four states because
    there was this cap that we are trying to raise with the RISEE
    Act. So I am just asking you, with your experience in the
    Everglades, is there a nice ROI on investment in resiliency,
    which is to say that if we invest now, we have to spend less
    later?
        Ms. Estenoz. I promise I didn't plan that question with
    you, Senator Cassidy. Yes, there is a tremendous ROI. You know,
    the numbers we have used in the Everglades for wetland and
    coastal restoration is something like four to one ROI, and
    that's an old number. It's probably higher now. I traveled to
    Louisiana last August and spent some time out there, looking at
    some of that coastal restoration. And I think, you know, I know
    you have got the RISEE Act. The RISEE Act is moving through and
    if I am confirmed as Deputy Secretary or even in my current
    role, my current portfolio, you know, I would welcome the
    opportunity to work with you. I understand, you know, that you
    have given me some good numbers and I would like to understand
    those better, about the impact when it comes to the revenue
    sharing cap as well. Coastal restoration is obviously essential
    for our coastal states.
        Senator Cassidy. Thank you. I yield.
        Thank you.
        The Chairman. Thank you, Senator.
        And now we have Senator Hoeven.
        Senator Hoeven. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you to you
    and the Ranking Member for holding this hearing today.
    Secretary, I appreciate you being here.
        Ms. Estenoz. Thank you, Senator.
        Senator Hoeven. One of the things we have worked on very
    hard in the Theodore Roosevelt National Park is to maintain the
    horses that are there. The wild horses have been there for,
    obviously, a very long time. There was some attention by the
    Park Service to consider removing the horses.
        Ms. Estenoz. Yes, sir.
        Senator Hoeven. We had a public process, a lot of input,
    people very, very, very much want horses in that park. I worked
    to secure a commitment from the Park Service to maintain horses
    in the park, and not only horses, but a genetically diverse
    herd, a large enough herd to maintain their genetic diversity.
    Are you committed to making sure that we continue to retain
    horses in the park and maintain an adequate herd so that the
    genetics are adequately preserved?
        Ms. Estenoz. Senator, let me say, it was nice to speak with
    you on the phone when we were leading into that decision, and I
    want to thank you for your leadership on that issue. I want to
    thank you for your close communication with our regional
    director. Your office has a very good relationship with him.
    And the Park Service has decided to take a step back, you know,
    from its plan and look again at horses at Theodore Roosevelt,
    and I think, you know, my role will be to work with them and
    work with you to find that right management level for that herd
    that is the right management level for the herd, and then we
    also want to talk about sort of the resources needed to
    maintain that herd by the Park Service. You know, we have got
    to protect all of those resources, and you know all of that. I
    mean, you know the unit very well. So I look forward to working
    together on it.
        Senator Hoeven. Thank you, and at least one or more of the
    tribes in the state have offered to assist in any way, shape,
    or form--Standing Rock, as well as the State of North Dakota,
    and there's a lot going on out there. So, you know, in your
    travels you may want to come out, but there's a ton going on in
    the park----
        Ms. Estenoz. Wonderful, yes.
        Senator Hoeven [continuing]. And the horses are an
    important part of it. So thank you for--and the regional
    administrator for us has been just outstanding. We have worked
    with him before, as you know, on elk and other things.
        Ms. Estenoz. Yes, yes.
        Senator Hoeven. And he does a fine job. He knows----
        Ms. Estenoz. Yes, I have known Bert for 20 years. He is a
    really easy guy to work with.
        Senator Hoeven. Yes, he is a good man. Thank you on that.
        Now, one of the challenges that we have got is that you are
    looking at what you call a resource management plan in the
    Dakotas. The challenge with this, at least the way that you
    have proceeded so far, is that it would really close off
    leasing oil and gas acreage and also our coal acreage. And you
    have to understand in, North Dakota, maybe you do, but we have
    split ownership between Interior, the state, and between
    private individuals. So, for example, the Federal Government
    might not own any of the surface acres, but they might own some
    of the mineral acres underneath. The state might own some, and
    private individuals might own some. So if, in this resource
    management plan, you close off access or refuse to lease your
    minerals, all of a sudden, whether it's oil or coal or anything
    else, they are stopped, and you might not even own any of the
    surface acreage, right? And so then, they would have to go
    somewhere else or go around you. That disenfranchises not only
    the State of North Dakota, but also those individuals.
        So you need to work with us on this management plan. And
    again, it goes back to multiple use, you know, in the
    grasslands and in federal lands. And so, whether it's BLM,
    whether it's, you know, the National Grasslands, any of these,
    and of course, we work with Department of Ag on that, but we
    have got to be able to access those so that people are not
    unfairly disenfranchised.
        Ms. Estenoz. Yes, thank you, Senator. And if I am
    confirmed, I absolutely will commit to working with you on
    that. I have a little bit of experience, believe it or not. We
    have a mixed-estate situation in Big Cypress National Preserve
    in Florida--privately held minerals, publicly held surface
    estate. So I have a little bit of experience there. So yes, I
    look forward to working with you on that, if I am confirmed.
        Senator Hoeven. And, you know, obviously, we do an
    incredible amount in ag, in energy, livestock, all those kinds
    of things, but it's also tourism and recreation. We do it all
    out there. We truly follow that multiple use, but we have got
    to make sure that we are able to access lands properly and
    fairly for both the state and for individuals.
        Ms. Estenoz. Thank you, Senator.
        Senator Hoeven. Okay.
        I guess the other thing I would want to ask about is, the
    Biden Administration put out numbers on drilling permits, and
    it said that there had been more drilling permits approved than
    were actually drilled, and at one time they were saying there
    were more drilling permits approved through the Biden
    Administration than for the same amount of time during the
    Trump Administration. Now, that has come out, and that number
    has been dropped significantly by something like a thousand
    drilling permits. And so I would like to make sure we have the
    accurate information. You know, we are concerned, obviously,
    that the price of gasoline is up, and we believe that nobody
    can do it--I mean, we produce over 1.2 million barrels a day
    just in my state, and nobody has better environmental
    standards. And so we can't allow Russia or OPEC or Iran or
    anyone else to produce for the world. We need to be producing
    not only for ourselves and others, but just to bring prices
    down, fight inflation, and really for geopolitical security.
        So if you would, I would like those latest updated numbers,
    if you would provide those?
        Ms. Estenoz. I will take that back, Senator, and make sure
    that those get to you.
        Senator Hoeven. Thank you.
        Ms. Estenoz. Thank you.
        Senator Hoeven. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        The Chairman. Thank you, Senator.
        And I just have one more question to follow up with.
        Ms. Estenoz. Yes, sir.
        The Chairman. And then Senator Barrasso does too. And I do
    not know if Senator Hoeven has another question or so.
        But with that, mine is this: In the Infrastructure
    Investment and Jobs Act, which we passed, bipartisan, in 2022,
    the Interior Department was given a statutory deadline to issue
    the final offshore carbon capture and storage regulation by
    November 2022. Interior missed that deadline and continues to
    delay each year. All the science tells us we cannot meet our
    climate goals without carbon sequestration. But it's an
    oxymoron because if they don't really want to find a solution
    for it, they can blame the problem on fossil fuels, when we can
    use it with technology to make it much cleaner. So given the
    Administration's focus on decarbonization, the issue should be
    a top priority, yet a draft rule has not even been published
    yet. So I am asking you, if confirmed, will you commit to
    publishing a proposed rule before the end of this year?
        Ms. Estenoz. Well, Senator, as we get to know each other
    better, you will know that I am always a little reluctant to
    commit to things that I don't have control over because my word
    is everything, right? So I do not want to set myself up for
    failure----
        The Chairman. Do you have any idea where this is right now?
        Ms. Estenoz. My understanding is that it is a priority. It
    is in development. I mean, I think, what I understand about it
    is that it's standing up a brand new regime, a policy and
    permitting regime. And so it's complicated. And I know----
        The Chairman. Let me make sure I understand.
        Ms. Estenoz. Yes.
        The Chairman. Because you understand the politics we are
    dealing with.
        Ms. Estenoz. Yes.
        The Chairman. The Administration, or John Podesta, does not
    want to find a cure, okay? So that is what we are dealing with.
    You are required to act on the facts. We can do it. We can
    safely sequester. We have proven that, commercially. And all we
    are asking for is give us the report that shows it can be done.
    That is all we are asking for. I will fight the Administration.
    We will both fight it, whatever is going on there. But if you
    all will just--someone that we can count on to give us the
    facts that it can be done offshore.
        Ms. Estenoz. Senator, thank you. And if I am confirmed, as
    I have said this morning, you know, I will work with you. I
    will communicate with you. And I will take responsibility to be
    as smart as I need to be to communicate with you in an
    effective way that you find useful.
        The Chairman. Since I won't be here after January, I will
    rely on my friend here to make sure----
        Ms. Estenoz. Mr. Barrasso.
        The Chairman [continuing]. That you are reporting back to
    us.
        Ms. Estenoz. Absolutely. Thank you, Senator.
        The Chairman. Senator Barrasso.
        Senator Barrasso. Yes, thanks, Mr. Chairman.
        Just a couple other things. You know, in November 2022,
    Laura Daniel-Davis, the Acting Deputy Secretary, she signed a
    decision memo that raised royalty rates on oil and gas leases,
    raised the rates. According to the memo, they said lowering
    rates would actually encourage more oil and gas development and
    offer greater energy security. We are worried about energy
    security for the country. But she went ahead and chose to
    impose higher royalty rates so that, she said, ``the oil and
    gas production would move to a lower,'' and she said, ``more
    socially optimal level.'' So that the socially optimal level is
    not what is most interesting for the country in terms of
    greater energy security. Totally divergent positions.
        Do you believe that less American oil and gas production is
    socially optimal for our nation?
        Ms. Estenoz. So Senator, I am not sure I know what socially
    optimal is, but what I would say is that----
        Senator Barrasso. Well, it sounds like it's a religion by
    this Administration and the Department right now.
        Ms. Estenoz. What I would say is that, you know, I know
    that the Administration is pursuing a clean energy transition,
    and that addressing the climate crisis, lowering greenhouse gas
    emissions, this is something that is a high priority for us.
    And we have said this morning that we know that oil and gas
    production is going to be a part of the energy mix for a long
    time. And if I am confirmed as Deputy Secretary, you know, the
    energy portfolio would be--and my understanding the nature of
    the debate and really understanding what are the contours of
    the debate--you know, that is going to be my number one
    priority.
        Senator Barrasso. In addition to the contours, it's the
    long-term consequences of the debate. We had a hearing here a
    couple of weeks ago that the Chairman called talking about
    long-term energy needs and AI. And even according to the New
    York Times, the energy needs of this nation five years from now
    because of AI, because of electrification of vehicles, because
    of crypto, all of those things is going to be like adding a
    whole new California to the grid. And China is committed to
    having all the energy that they need for AI, and it doesn't
    seem like this Administration is committed to having the energy
    needed to be able to compete against China. And that was the
    result of the hearing here. So I am just talking in terms of
    the long-term consequences.
        So you know, under the current Secretary, the Department
    has leased, on average, 96 percent less onshore acreage for oil
    and gas production each year than the three prior
    Administrations--even the Obama Administration--much, much
    less. It has also issued, on average, 93 percent fewer onshore
    oil and gas leases each year compared to the prior
    Administrations, including the Obama Administration. In your
    view, is the Department headed in the right direction when it
    comes to oil and gas leasing?
        Ms. Estenoz. Well, so, you know, again, Senator, I have not
    been in the policy discussion on energy. Thus far, I would say
    that the Administration is confident that our plan is going to
    meet our energy needs into the future. I understand there is
    disagreement, and if I am confirmed as Deputy Secretary, I
    would be then part of that debate and those discussions and I
    would look forward to, you know, understanding your perspective
    on them.
        Senator Barrasso. I think what you just said is true--the
    Administration believes we are on the track to do that. We have
    had, here testifying, the FERC--the Federal Energy Regulatory
    Commission--and NERC--the reliability--they all say the
    Administration is wrong on that viewpoint. So I look forward to
    you getting deeper into that from a scientific standpoint to
    see there.
        The average time under Secretary Haaland to take to get an
    oil and gas permit has nearly tripled when compared to the
    Obama Administration. In one of the BLM field offices in
    Wyoming, the average wait time is now more than a year and a
    half. If confirmed, you would be the person overseeing the
    Bureau. Does nearly tripling the time it takes to receive an
    oil and gas permit sound reasonable to you?
        Ms. Estenoz. Well, Senator, we talked a little bit about
    permitting this morning across the board, and we know that the
    permitting process across the board can take longer than any of
    us really wants it to take. And certainly, if I am confirmed,
    you know, I would look into concerns, if there are, you know,
    as you have expressed concerns into the time it takes to
    process oil and gas permitting or any permitting.
        Senator Barrasso. So it gets into the discussion of what we
    consider reasonable because the federal law requires the Bureau
    of Land Management to issue oil and gas leases to winning
    bidders within 60 days. I mean, that is the current law. The
    Bureau has refused to issue leases to winning bidders of its
    2020 lease sale. It is now 2024. The Bureau has sat on these
    leases for three and a half years. I mean, those are the facts.
        If confirmed, you would oversee the Bureau. Is this a good
    example of an issue that would merit at least your personal
    time and attention?
        Ms. Estenoz. Indeed. I mean, certainly. Any issue that is
    raised by a United States Senator would be worth my time and
    attention, and this is one of them, certainly. And you know,
    again, this is the perfect example of, you know, where the
    Deputy Secretary would step in and say, all right, what's
    happening, and then, you know, communicate directly with you on
    that point.
        Senator Barrasso. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        The Chairman. Let me just follow up real quick on that.
        Ms. Estenoz. Yes.
        The Chairman. For an example, a drilling permit needed for
    a proposed lithium project on BLM-managed land has taken more
    than two years versus less than six months to secure the same
    permit on private lands. You don't have to reinvent the wheel
    here. All you have to do is basically reverse engineer. How are
    we doing it four times faster on private land than where we
    have total control on BLM land? That makes no sense to us.
        Ms. Estenoz. You know, thank you, Senator. And I will just
    say this--which is perhaps a little bit more substantive--which
    is that, you know, I mentioned earlier that in my current
    portfolio I have intersected, you know, with some of these
    issues, as overseeing a regulatory agency now. And you know,
    one of the lessons that--a couple of the lessons that I learned
    is that in some of these efforts, you know, engaging with the
    regulatory agency early and often, you know, that is an
    important thing to do. In our case, it was Fish and Wildlife
    Service, right? Engage leadership from the very beginning. The
    bigger and more complex the project, the more important it is
    to have certain leadership driving us to milestones, helping
    deconflict, helping getting over disagreements in stuck places.
    So I have learned some of these lessons and I would certainly
    bring those into the Deputy Secretary.
        The Chairman. Well, let me just make one final comment and
    then we will close out here.
        Ms. Estenoz. Yes, sir.
        The Chairman. The Department of the Interior seems to take
    stewardship to a whole new level. The Department of the
    Interior is not the owner of this land. It's the people of
    America, every one of us sitting here, we all own BLM land. And
    we are appreciative of good stewardship, but the bottom line
    is, it should be for our benefit, and this is what is not
    happening. We are fighting with ourselves to get the best
    results. That is what is frustrating, sitting here as a U.S.
    Senator, trying to have a dialogue with people who--you are a
    steward, you don't own it. It's not yours. This seat is not
    mine. It's not John's. We understand that. We are stewards. We
    are representing the people and we are asking you all to do the
    same.
        So with that, we do appreciate you being here. We
    appreciate your responsiveness to our questions, which I think
    you have been straightforward and I appreciate that very much
    and your willingness to take on this important role, which is
    so, so important to our country.
        Ms. Estenoz. Thank you.
        The Chairman. So with that, our members will have until
    6:00 p.m. tomorrow to submit additional questions for the
    record.
        And with that, the meeting is adjourned.
        [Whereupon, at 11:34 a.m., the hearing was adjourned.]

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