[Senate Hearing 118-345]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]


                                                        S. Hrg. 118-345

                RISKIER BUSINESS: HOW CLIMATE IS ALREADY
                     CHALLENGING INSURANCE MARKETS

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                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

                        COMMITTEE ON THE BUDGET
                          UNITED STATES SENATE

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                             SECOND SESSION

                               __________

                              June 5, 2024

                               __________

           Printed for the use of the Committee on the Budget
           
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                            www.govinfo.gov
                            
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                   U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE                    
55-978 PDF                  WASHINGTON : 2024                    
          
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                        COMMITTEE ON THE BUDGET

               SHELDON WHITEHOUSE, Rhode Island, Chairman
PATTY MURRAY, Washington             CHARLES E. GRASSLEY, Iowa
RON WYDEN, Oregon                    MIKE CRAPO, Idaho
DEBBIE STABENOW, Michigan            LINDSEY O. GRAHAM, South Carolina
BERNARD SANDERS, Vermont             RON JOHNSON, Wisconsin
MARK R. WARNER, Virginia             MITT ROMNEY, Utah
JEFF MERKLEY, Oregon                 ROGER MARSHALL, Kansas
TIM KAINE, Virginia                  MIKE BRAUN, Indiana
CHRIS VAN HOLLEN, Maryland           JOHN KENNEDY, Louisiana
BEN RAY LUJAN, New Mexico            RICK SCOTT, Florida
ALEX PADILLA, California             MIKE LEE, Utah

                   Dan Dudis, Majority Staff Director
        Kolan Davis, Republican Staff Director and Chief Counsel
                   Mallory B. Nersesian, Chief Clerk 
                  Alexander C. Scioscia, Hearing Clerk
                            
                            
                            C O N T E N T S

                              ----------                              

                        WEDNESDAY, JUNE 5, 2024 
                        
                OPENING STATEMENTS BY COMMITTEE MEMBERS

                                                                   Page
Senator Sheldon Whitehouse, Chairman.............................     1
    Prepared Statement...........................................    34
Senator Charles E. Grassley......................................     3
    Prepared Statement...........................................    36

                    STATEMENTS BY COMMITTEE MEMBERS

Senator Tim Kaine................................................    18
Senator Ron Johnson..............................................    19
Senator Jeff Merkley.............................................    21
Senator Mitt Romney..............................................    23
Senator Chris Van Hollen.........................................    26
Senator Ben Ray Lujan............................................    30

                               WITNESSES

Mr. Rade Musulin, Principal, Finity Consulting...................     6
    Prepared Statement...........................................    39
Dr. Ishita Sen, Assistant Professor of Finance, Harvard Business 
  School.........................................................     8
    Prepared Statement...........................................    56
Ms. Deborah Wood, Florida Resident...............................     9
    Prepared Statement...........................................    70
Hon. Glen Mulready, Insurance Commissioner, State of Oklahoma....    11
    Prepared Statement...........................................    72
Dr. EJ Antoni, Research Fellow, Heritage Foundation's Grover 
  Hermann Center for the Federal Budget..........................    12
    Prepared Statement...........................................    75

                                APPENDIX

Responses to post-hearing questions for the Record
    Mr. Musulin..................................................    87
    Dr. Sen......................................................    93
     Dr. Antoni..................................................    97
Charts submitted by Chairman Sheldon Whitehouse..................   100
Statement submitted for the Record by Demotech...................   103

 
                           RISKIER BUSINESS:
                         HOW CLIMATE IS ALREADY
                     CHALLENGING INSURANCE MARKETS

                              ----------                              


                        WEDNESDAY, JUNE 5, 2024

                                           Committee on the Budget,
                                                       U.S. Senate,
                                                    Washington, DC.
    The hearing was convened, pursuant to notice, at 10:00 
a.m., in the Dirksen Senate Office Building, Room SD-608, Hon. 
Sheldon Whitehouse, Chairman of the Committee, presiding.
    Present: Senators Whitehouse, Merkley, Kaine, Van Hollen, 
Lujan, Grassley, Johnson, Romney, and R. Scott.
    Also present: Democratic Staff: Dan Dudis, Majority Staff 
Director; Kara Allen, Senior Energy and Climate Advisor, Energy 
Lead.
    Republican Staff: Chris Conlin, Deputy Staff Director; 
Krisann Pearce, General Counsel; Ken Acuna, Professional Staff 
Member; Jordan Pakula, Professional Staff Member; Ryan Flynn, 
Budget Analyst.
    Witnesses:
    The Honorable Glen Mulready, Insurance Commissioner, State 
of Oklahoma
    Mr. Rade Musulin, Principal, Finity Consulting
    Dr. Ishita Sen, Assistant Professor of Finance, Harvard 
Business School
    Ms. Deborah Wood, Florida Resident
    Dr. EJ Antoni, Research Fellow, Heritage Foundation's 
Grover Hermann Center for the Federal Budget

          OPENING STATEMENT OF CHAIRMAN WHITEHOUSE \1\
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    \1\ Prepared statement of Chairman Whitehouse appears in the 
appendix on page 34.
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    Chairman Whitehouse. Good morning everyone. I will call 
this hearing of the Budget Committee to order, and thank our 
witnesses for being here, and our Ranking Member of course. 
More than a year has passed since our hearing on climate havoc 
in the insurance industry upending housing markets, mortgage 
markets, and local property tax bases, and spilling out into 
the broader economy.
    That threat is just one of the systemic risks climate 
change poses to our economy and to our financial system. Since 
that hearing a year ago, things have gotten worse in insurance 
markets, and worse for American families that rely on them. 
Press reporting, risk assessments, and further warnings are 
piling up. I'd reference in particular the recent cover article 
of the Economist magazine.
    As we heard in those original hearings, you need insurance 
to get a mortgage. Without a mortgage most of our constituents 
could not purchase a home. What happens when insurance 
companies go bust, or don't renew policies, or pull entirely 
out of a state? Families lose insurance. They can't find a 
decent policy. They can't afford what's available. Some even 
pack up and move away.
    Some end up with state backed insurers of last resort, 
which may or may not be solvent. Some end up with small 
insurers, which may or may not have the resources to pay 
claims. This is what we've begun to see in multiple states. One 
is Florida. Ten percent of our nation's homeowners live in 
Florida. Florida homeowners pay on average over $6,000 for 
insurance, the highest in the country, indeed more than 3 times 
the national average, which is $1,700.00.
    Florida's average premium has doubled between 2020 and 
2023, and the trajectory is that it's going to get worse. This 
has put a strain on many Florida residents. They install 
hurricane windows and doors to reduce risk, but premiums 
continue their upward march. They put off retirement, or skip 
vacations. For some, such as Deb Wood and her husband, it is 
simply too much. In Florida, insured losses grew by 206 percent 
between 2003 and 2018. 2022 saw Florida residents file over 
678,000 personal and commercial insurance claims. Over 40 
percent were hurricane related.
    The National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) 
predicts an 85 percent chance of an above normal 2024 hurricane 
season, with 17 to 25 total named storms, and 4 to 7 major 
hurricanes. In 2022 and 2023, more than a dozen insurance 
companies left the Florida residential market, including 
national insurers like Farmers. Residents fled to Citizens 
Property Insurance, the state backed insurer of last resort, 
which ballooned from a 4 percent market share in 2019 to as 
much as 17 percent last year.
    If it has to pay out claims that exceed its reserves, 
Citizens can levy a surcharge on Florida insurance 
policyholders across the state. Good luck with that, 
particularly if the surcharge grows to hundreds or even 
thousands of dollars. To depopulate its books, Citizens has let 
private insurers cherry pick out its least risk policies.
    Those private insurers may have problems of their own, as 
we will hear today. This all looks like an insurance market 
that is swirling the drain. As one of our witnesses put it, and 
I quote, ``unreliable insurance could result in a situation 
where large climate shocks may cause property damage at the 
exact time that the property insurer becomes insolvent, 
increasing household default incentives, and losses given 
default.''
    What will the collision of increasingly unreliable 
insurance and greater mortgage defaults mean? Who will be left 
holding the bag? The federal budget takes a hit because these 
insurers and their policies are accepted by Freddie Mac and 
Fannie Mae, who are either own, or guarantee a large part of 
our $12 trillion mortgage market.
    This all sounds eerily reminiscent of the run-up to the 
mortgage meltdown of 2008, including a role of potentially 
captive, or not fully responsible rating agencies. Florida is 
far from alone. A New York Times investigation found that the 
insurance industry lost money on homeowner's coverage in 18 
states last year, and the states may surprise you. The list 
includes Illinois, Michigan, Utah, Washington, and Iowa.
    Insurers in Iowa lost money each of the last 4 years. This 
is a signal that hurricanes and earthquakes, once the most 
prevalent perils, are being rivaled by hail, windstorms, and 
wildfires. Last year the U.S. experienced 28 separate billion-
dollar extreme weather events. Over the past decade 28 states 
have been hit by such events more than twice in a year--I 
should say twice or more in a year.
    38 states were hit in back to back years, and losses are 
expected to climb. So too will premiums, that is where insurers 
are even willing to stay. In one example, the premium on a 
$250,000 home for a 40-year-old couple with a combined good 
credit rating and clean claims history, would increase by as 
much as 63 percent in Louisiana, and 61 percent in Nebraska.
    To borrow from the Times article, ``the question facing 
insurance companies around the country, and the homeowners who 
rely on them is which state might be heading in the same 
direction as Florida? The answer from our reporting, it could 
be any of them.''
    Or as a former State Insurance Commissioner said, ``we're 
marching toward an uninsurable future.'' This isn't all that 
complicated. Climate risk makes things uninsurable. No 
insurance makes things unmortgageable. No mortgages crashes the 
property markets. Crashed property markets trash the economy. 
It all begins with climate risk, and a major party pretending 
that climate risk isn't real, imperils our federal budget and 
millions of Americans all across the country.
    I'll just add in closing that the scale of the exposure 
that we're talking about today, and the paucity of our 
response, and the numerosity and severity of the warnings we 
have heard from responsible people, and the role of 
underinsurance and potentially unreliable ratings from rating 
agencies is really ringing a lot of alarm bells with me of what 
we looked like going into 2008. And with that, I'll turn to my 
distinguished Ranking Member, Senator Grassley.

           OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR GRASSLEY \2\
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    \2\ Prepared statement of Senator Grassley appears in the appendix 
on page 36.
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    Senator Grassley. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Welcome to our 
panel of experts. If the Federal Government is going to remain 
ready to respond to the natural disasters and national 
emergencies, we have to have the capability of doing that, and 
it seems to me that begs to put the nation's fiscal house in 
order.
    Yet, even with interest on our national debt, and that is 
set to surpass defense spending this year, the majority refuses 
to write a budget, or work together to curb reckless Washington 
spending. This week is more of the same, with our 19th hearing 
on climate change. President Biden and the majority would like 
us all to ignore our exploding $34 trillion debt.
    The majority hopes that we stop discussing how unchecked 
deficit spending has fueled inflation, hammering hard-working 
Americans, and I will say shortly, has something to do with 
driving up the cost of insurance. Families now face prices that 
are 20 percent higher than when President Biden took office. 65 
percent of Americans report that entrenched inflation has made 
their financial situation worse off under the Biden 
administration, and that's not Chuck Grassley, that's according 
to the Federal Reserve.
    Moreover, recent high interest rates have contributed to 
Americans struggling to pay record high credit. That means 
their credit card bills or home mortgage. As Federal Reserve 
Chairman Powell has said, ``it's probably time, or past time, 
to get back to an adult conversation among elected officials 
about getting the Federal Government back on a sustainable 
fiscal path.''
    Absent correcting action, Iowans, and for that matter all 
Americans, will be faced with even higher interest rates, lower 
incomes, and elevated inflation, and that will be the situation 
for years to come. As to the subject of today's hearing. We've 
seen this show before. The majority continues to crusade 
against American fossil fuel companies. They want to bully 
insurers into abandoning their diversified portfolios, so they 
stop underwriting all fossil fuel projects.
    If the majority get their way, Americans can expect to pay 
much more to put gas in their cars, and to heat their homes. 
Now, I've done battle with big oil in the past, particularly 
when it comes to their opposition to bio fuels, and I support 
reasoned oversight over insurance companies. But oversight 
isn't the same thing as advocacy that seeks to punish those 
that hold different views from one's own.
    As Justice Sotomayor wrote in last week's unanimous 
National Rifle Association of America (NRA) versus Vullo 
decision, ``government officials cannot attempt to coerce 
private parties in order to punish or suppress views that the 
government disfavors.'' Insurance premiums are far too high 
across the board, and may increase after the recent storms, 
including those very storms in my state of Iowa.
    Climate change isn't the primary driver of insurance rates 
hikes, and collapse of the insurance industry isn't imminent, 
although I'll have to say, Iowa had six property and casualty 
companies pull out of insuring Iowans. Climate change doesn't 
explain why auto insurance premiums in 2024 have increased by a 
whopping 20 percent year over year.
    It also doesn't account for the consistent failure of 
liberal cities to fight crime, which has raised insurance risk 
and even caused insurers to deny coverage. Expensive liberal 
policies, not climate change, are much to blame for these 
market dynamics. Insurance companies and reinsurers are 
scrambling to wrangle inflation, like the rest of us.
    Disasters cost more than ever because our goods and 
services are much more expensive. Moreover, there are more rich 
people living in areas affected by weather, all the way from 
Newport down to Miami Beach. It's simply more costly to pay the 
bill for insurance claims.
    What's more, the Federal Reserve can't keep up with the 
Biden inflation, despite hiking interest rates to a 23 year 
high. Reinsurance companies are in the business of purchasing 
risk from insurance company portfolios. It's only rational for 
them to forego risky investments when the U.S. Treasury pays 
such a healthy return.
    Inflation has become embedded in the economy, and the 
historic levels of borrowing by the Federal Government are 
crowding out the private sector. It only makes sense that the 
majority would rather point the finger at climate change. To do 
otherwise means that they acknowledge their reckless spending 
is a major cause of the problem.
    So, I welcome all today's witnesses, and I look forward to 
each of your testimonies, and hope you guide this Committee to 
focus on our primary responsibility. Thank you.
    Chairman Whitehouse. Thanks very much, Senator Grassley. 
Before I introduce the witnesses, let me just point out that we 
have a budget agreed to in bicameral and bipartisan fashion. 
And with respect to reducing fiscal risk, I've been pursuing 
that on four routes. One is derisking the budget, which is 
important because a third of our national debt came from 
shocks, economic shocks, that we could have predicted that were 
not part of regular and ordinary budgeting.
    Second, raising revenues, particularly on the corporate 
sector, whose contribution to our government revenues has 
declined dramatically across recent decades. And of course, 
high end people, including billionaires who literally pay zero 
in income tax.
    Third is to reduce healthcare spending. It's a major 
component of our spending, and with system reforms that the 
Ranking Member and I have discussed, a number of bipartisan 
bills that we're working on, I think we can make real progress 
there.
    And the last, and probably the least, is to review 
appropriated spending. That is not the highest value, or the 
most significant, important focus I think, in terms of getting 
to a balanced budget, but it is a small part of the overall 
equation.
    Senator Grassley. Could I respond to that before you 
introduce our witnesses?
    Chairman Whitehouse. Of course.
    Senator Grassley. Yeah. We don't have a budget resolution 
for 2025. What we do have is called a deemer, and it's no 
substitute for a real Congressional Budget Resolution that can 
be debated and amended on the floor by all 100 Senators. A 
deemer has none of the basic contents of a congressional budget 
required under Section 301 of the Budget Act.
    And while a budget resolution can offer a serious financial 
plan for the Federal Government, deemers based on baseline 
estimates are simply placeholders until we finish a real 
budget. Last year's debt limit deal explicitly said that a 
deemer does not prevent Congress from doing a real budget 
resolution for 2025. Thank you very much.
    Chairman Whitehouse. That is true, and it remains the case 
that we have a budget that was agreed to in bicameral and 
bipartisan fashion. The first witness is Rade Musulin. Rade is 
an actuary with 45 years of experience in insurance, 
specializing in property, pricing, natural perils, reinsurance, 
agriculture, catastrophe risk modeling, public policy 
development and climate risk. Specifically, he spent many years 
working in Florida, including as Chair of the Florida Hurricane 
Catastrophe Fund Advisory Council during the time in which 
Citizens Property Insurance Corporation was established.
    Our second witness is Dr. Ishita Sen. Dr. Sen is an 
Assistant Professor at Harvard Business School. Her recent 
research examines the pricing of property insurance, and the 
interactions between insurance and mortgage markets. This 
includes the role that institutions and the regulatory 
landscape play, and the broader consequences for real estate 
markets, climate adaptation and our overall financial 
stability.
    Our third witness is Deb Wood. Ms. Wood and her husband, 
Dan McGrath are both retired Floridians. They moved to South 
Florida in 1979, and lived in Broward County, which includes 
Fort Lauderdale, for 43 years until skyrocketing insurance 
premiums became too much. They now reside in Tallahassee, 
Florida.
    I will now turn to my Ranking Member, Senator Grassley, to 
introduce the Republican witnesses.
    Senator Grassley. Thank you for the privilege of 
introducing my invitees to this Committee. Dr. E.J. Antoni is a 
Research Fellow at the Heritage Foundation, Grover M. Hermann 
Center for Federal Budget. His research focuses on fiscal and 
monetary policy, and he previously was an economist at the 
Texas Public Policy Foundation. Antoni earned his master's 
degree and doctorate's degree in economics from Northern 
Illinois University.
    Commissioner Glen Mulready has served as Oklahoma's 13th 
Insurance Commissioner, and was first elected to this position 
in 2019. Commissioner Mulready started his insurance career as 
a broker in 1984, and also served in the Oklahoma State House 
of Representatives.
    He supports efforts to continue to apply best practices, 
modernizing the Oklahoma Insurance Department, and embracing 
new technology to serve the people of Oklahoma. Welcome to both 
of you.
    Chairman Whitehouse. With that, Mr. Musulin, you have 5 
minutes, and your entire written testimony, which was very 
helpful, and I appreciate, will be made a part of the record of 
the proceedings. Please proceed with your oral statement.

  STATEMENT OF RADE MUSULIN, PRINCIPAL, FINITY CONSULTING \3\
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    \3\ Prepared statement of Mr. Musulin appears in the appendix on 
page 39.
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    Mr. Musulin. Chairman Whitehouse, Ranking Member Grassley, 
and distinguished members of the Committee, thank you for the 
opportunity to appear before you today. My name is Rade 
Musulin. I'm an actuary who has extensive experience in natural 
hazard risks, and funding arrangements for the damage and loss 
they cause.
    I worked with many public sector entities on policy 
responses to the challenges of affordability, availability of 
insurance, and community resilience. This work included 
participating in Florida's response to Hurricane Andrew, which 
included the creation of the Florida Hurricane Catastrophe 
Fund, and Citizens Property Insurance Corporation.
    The catastrophe (CAT) Fund and Citizens can access 
different forms of funding than traditional insurance 
companies. Instead of holding sufficient capital or reinsurance 
before an event to cover the cost of potential losses, both 
entities use public sources of capital to reduce upfront costs 
by partially funding losses post event through bonding and 
assessments.
    All property casualty insurance policyholders, whether in 
Citizens or not, are subject to its assessments, while the CAT 
Fund could also assess almost all policies, including 
automobile. This approach exposes Floridians to debt and 
repayment if large losses occur, and it subsidizes high risk 
policies from the entire population. These pools, others like 
them in other states, and the National Flood Insurance Program 
(NFIP) have contributed to rapid development in high risk 
areas, driving higher costs in the long run.
    In Florida, national insurers have reduced their exposure. 
As a significant proportion of the insurance market has moved 
to Citizens, or smaller insurers with limited capital that are 
heavily dependent on external reinsurance. Now, to date, 
Florida's system has been successful in meeting its claims and 
obligations, while improvements in building codes have reduced 
loss exposure.
    However, for a variety of reasons, including exposure to 
hurricanes, claims cost inflation, and litigation, Florida's 
insurance premiums are the highest in the nation, causing 
significant affordability stress for consumers. According to 
market research from Bank Rate, the average premium for a 
$300,000 home in Florida is 3 times the national average, with 
some areas 5 times the national average.
    A major hurricane hitting a densely populated area like 
Miami could trigger large and long-lasting post assessments, or 
even exceed the system's funding capacity. Continued rapid 
exposure growth and more extreme hurricane losses amplified by 
climate change will cause increasing stress on the nation's 
insurance system, which can be felt through solvency issues, 
non-renewals, growth of government pools, and affordability 
pressure.
    Evidence of increasing risk abounds, including Hurricane 
Otis in 2023, which rapidly intensified from a tropical storm 
to a CAT 5 hurricane, and devastated Acapulco in Mexico. Last 
summer water temperatures off Florida exceeded 100 degrees 
Fahrenheit. Last week, as was alluded to earlier, NOAA 
forecasted an extremely active hurricane season for '24.
    We've seen losses in the Mid-Atlantic from Sandy, record 
flooding from Harvey, and extreme devastation from Maria, among 
others. In coming decades, we must prepare for the possibility 
of more extensive--more extreme hurricanes, and coastal 
flooding from Texas to New England.
    Florida's experience is a warning of what we may see in the 
future in other states. Despite its innovative and extensive 
efforts to address its hurricane problem, premiums are high, 
consumers may face large assessments, and many are dependent on 
Citizens and smaller insurers.
    Most current building codes and land use policies in the 
country do not reflect potential future risk. Even if we 
undertook rapid action to address this, existing exposure and 
likely development will leave us vulnerable to large losses for 
decades to come, which may trigger more widespread availability 
and affordability issues, or even calls for federal assistance.
    The combination of demographics, development, and disasters 
pose a significant risk to our financial system, and climate 
change increases that risk. Addressing this will be a long-term 
effort which involves very difficult public policy choices, 
thank you.
    Chairman Whitehouse. Thanks very much. Dr. Sen, please 
proceed with your testimony.

 STATEMENT OF DR. ISHITA SEN, ASSISTANT PROFESSOR OF FINANCE, 
                  HARVARD BUSINESS SCHOOL \4\
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    \4\ Prepared statement of Dr. Sen appears in the appendix on page 
56.
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    Dr. Sen. Good morning Senators. I am Ishita Sen, Assistant 
Professor at Harvard Business School, and my research studies 
insurance markets. In recent work with coauthors at Columbia 
University and the Federal Reserve Board, I examine how climate 
risk creates fiscal and potentially financial instability 
because of miscalibrated insurance screening standards, and the 
repercussions for mortgage markets.
    Insurance is critical to the housing market. Property 
insurers help households rebuild after disasters. By preserving 
collateral values and reducing the likelihood that a borrower 
defaults insurance directly reduces risks for mortgage lenders 
and the Government Sponsored Enterprises (GSEs), Fannie Mae and 
Freddie Mac.
    Mortgage lenders, therefore, require property insurance, 
and the GSEs only purchase mortgages backed by insurers who 
meet the minimum financial strength ratings, which measure 
insurer solvency, and the ability to pay claims. The GSEs 
accept three main rating agencies: AM Best, S&P, and more 
recently Demotech. And to provide an example, Fannie Mae 
requires insurers to have at least a B+ rating from AM Best, or 
at least an A rating from Demotech, to accept a mortgage. Now, 
despite having this policy in place, we find a dramatic rise in 
mortgages backed by fragile insurers, and show that the GSEs, 
and therefore the taxpayers, ultimately shoulder a large part 
of the financial burden. Our research focuses on Florida 
because of the availability of granular insurance market data, 
and we show that traditional insurers are exiting, and the gap 
is rapidly being filled by insurers rated by Demotech, which 
has about a 60 percent market share in Florida today.
    These insurers are low-quality across a range of different 
financial and operational metrics, and are at a very high risk 
of becoming insolvent. But despite their risk, these insurers 
secure high enough ratings to meet the minimum rating 
requirement set by the GSEs.
    Our analysis shows that many actually would not be eligible 
under the methodologies of other rating agencies, implying that 
in many cases these ratings are inflated, and that the GSEs' 
insurer requirements are miscalibrated.
    We next look at how fragile insurers create mortgage market 
risks. In the aftermath of Hurricane Irma, homeowners with a 
policy from one of the insolvent Demotech insurers were 
significantly more likely to default on their mortgage relative 
to similar borrowers with policies from stable insurers.
    This is because insurers that are in financial trouble 
typically are slower to pay claims, or may not pay the full 
amount. But this implies severe economic hardships for many, 
many Floridians, despite having expensive insurance coverage in 
place. However, the pain doesn't stop there. The financial cost 
of fragile insurers go well beyond the borders of Florida 
because lenders often sell mortgages, for example to the GSEs, 
and therefore the risks created by fragile insurers spread from 
one state to the rest of the financial system through the 
actions of lenders and rating agencies.
    In fact, we show two reasons why the GSEs bear a large 
share of insurance fragility risk. First, lenders strategically 
secularize mortgages, offloading loans backed by Demotech 
insurers to the GSEs in order to limit their counterparty risk 
exposures.
    And second, that lenders do not consider insurer risk 
during mortgage origination for loans that they can sell to the 
GSEs, even though they do so for loans that they end up 
retaining, indicating lax insurer screening standards for loans 
that can be offloaded to the GSEs.
    Before I end I want to leave you with two numbers. Over 90 
percent, that's our estimate of Demotech's market share among 
loans that are sold to the GSEs. And 25 times more, that's 
Demotech's insolvency rate, relative to AM Best, among the GSE 
eligible insurers.
    Projections suggest risks will continue to grow with 
climate change and with more building in risky areas--that is 
unless action is taken to correct incentives and strengthen 
insurance markets, which includes properly accounting for 
insured solvency risks and climate risks. A necessary starting 
point for all of this is access to granular insurance 
underwriting data. I urge regulators to collect these data in a 
comprehensive way, and make it widely available for research. I 
really appreciate this opportunity, Senators, and your timely 
efforts on this issue. Thank you.
    Chairman Whitehouse. Thank you very much. I now have the 
pleasure of welcoming Ms. Deborah Wood, who can bring some 
lived experience to the expert testimony that we have heard. 
Please proceed, Ms. Wood.

        STATEMENT OF DEBORAH WOOD, FLORIDA RESIDENT \5\
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    \5\ Prepared statement of Ms. Wood appears in the appendix on page 
70.
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    Ms. Wood. Good morning, and thank you for inviting me. My 
name is Deborah Wood. My husband, Dan McGrath and I, moved from 
New Jersey to South Florida in 1979. We lived in Broward County 
for 43 years until we sold our home in January 2023, in part 
because our home insurance was becoming unaffordable.
    My husband and I are retired. He was a public school 
teacher of special needs children, and I was a journalist. Dan 
and I raised our two daughters in Florida, and all four of us 
have earned degrees from Florida public universities.
    In 1994, we moved to the City of Plantation, about 10 miles 
inland from the east coast. Home insurance rates were 
reasonable in those early years, and when we had to replace our 
roof in 2008 after a storm, the claims process was very smooth.
    Our policy renewed each October with manageable rate 
increases. That changed in recent years. In 2017, we paid 
$3,700 per year for insurance, and in subsequent years the 
rates increased significantly, so that our proposed renewal for 
2023 was more than $8,000. Our problems with insurance began in 
2017.
    Sometime before my husband and I left on a trip, a man 
showed up unannounced, saying he was from my insurance company 
and wanted to take a look at the property. As he had no 
identification, I declined him access. I left the company a 
voicemail, and forgot about it until a few weeks later when I 
received a notice that our policy would not be renewed because 
I had refused an inspection.
    I contacted them immediately, said there was a 
misunderstanding, and asked them to send another inspector. 
They did. I didn't hear anything more, and naively thought we 
no longer had a problem. I was wrong. In early September my 
husband and I were at the Grand Canyon National Park, where we 
caught the news of Hurricane Irma's pending assault on Florida.
    I knew we would be covered for the storm, but I wanted 
reassurance that my policy was on track to be renewed in 
October, so I called the company. I will never forget that 
phone conversation. I was told that we still would not be 
renewed, but now the reason was because my roof had failed 
inspection. I asked why did you not tell me this, and the 
answer was because we don't have to.
    I asked for the roofing report, and was told no. That was 
the property of the insurance company. So, this company that I 
had done business with for at least 20 years, was not only 
dropping us, but was allowing us to ride out a potentially 
catastrophic storm with what they had determined was a 
defective roof without even warning us.
    Fortunately, we only incurred minor damage from Irma, but 
we had to scramble to find a new company in a matter of weeks 
in a state that had sustained major damage. Our roof passed the 
new company's inspection with no problems, even after Irma, but 
unfortunately, their rates were higher, and kept increasing, 
even as we had no new claims, reduced our coverage, replaced 
our windows and doors with hurricane proof glass, at a cost to 
us at about $40,000.
    My husband I never intended to move. We loved our 
community, our neighbors, and our friends. Our home in South 
Florida was the regular gathering place for extended family. We 
truly enjoyed hosting visitors.
    But in 2022, we began discussions as to whether South 
Florida was still the best place for us. There were family 
concerns, the weather events were becoming more and more 
frequent, and maintaining our home was becoming expensive.
    The insurance quote for 2023 gave us the push to put the 
house on the market. We intended to buy another home in 
Tallahassee, Florida, near our daughter and son-in-law. We put 
our belongings in storage, moved in with them, and looked for a 
new home. Flash forward to 2024. We have reluctantly made the 
decision that we will not be buying a home in Florida.
    We've learned there's no escaping the insurance problems, 
and weather disasters are becoming more and more prevalent, 
even in previously safe areas, like Tallahassee. We haven't 
decided what our next step will be, but at this stage of our 
lives, we are not willing to risk our financial well-being by 
buying a home that one day may be uninsurable, or craters in a 
value in a housing market fueled by the homeowners insurance 
crisis.
    Chairman Whitehouse. Thanks very much. Our next witness may 
proceed.

      STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE GLEN MULREADY, INSURANCE 
              COMMISSIONER, STATE OF OKLAHOMA \6\
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    \6\  Prepared statement of Hon. Mulready appears in the appendix on 
page 72.
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    Commissioner Mulready. Chairman Whitehouse, Ranking Member 
Grassley, members of the Committee. Thank you for the 
opportunity to address you today on a topic that's becoming 
increasingly important to homeowners across the nation, 
increasing homeowners insurance premiums.
    As natural disasters continue to rise, understanding the 
dynamics of insurance pricing is crucial for both homeowners 
and policymakers. Homeowners insurance is a fundamental 
safeguard for what is for many Americans, their single largest 
asset. This important coverage protects against financial loss 
due to damage or destruction of a home and its contents.
    However, recent years have seen a notable increase in 
insurance premiums. One significant driver of this rise is 
convective storms and other severe weather events. Convective 
storms, which include phenomenon like thunderstorms, tornadoes, 
and hail, have caused substantial damage in various regions.
    The cost to repair homes or replace belongings after such 
events has skyrocketed, leaving insurance companies to adjust 
their premiums to cover that increased risk. Beyond convective 
storms, we've witnessed hurricanes, wildfires and flooding. 
These events have not only caused damage, but have also 
increased the long-term risk profile of many areas.
    Insurance companies are tasked with managing that risk, and 
have responded by raising premiums to ensure they can cover 
those potential claims. Another major factor influencing 
homeowners insurance premiums is inflation. Inflation affects 
the cost of building materials, labor and other expenses 
related to home repair and reconstruction.
    As the cost of living increases, so does the cost of claims 
for insurers. When the price of lumber, steel, and other 
essential materials goes up, the expense of repairing or 
rebuilding homes also rises. Insurance companies must reflect 
these higher costs in their premiums to maintain financial 
stability, and ensure they can meet those contractual 
obligations to policyholders.
    So, what can homeowners do to mitigate these rising costs? 
One of the most effective strategies is proactive mitigation. 
Homeowners can invest in measures that reduce the risk of 
damage from severe weather events. For instance, installing 
storm shutters, reinforcing roofs, using ``hail resistant 
shingles,'' and using fire resistant materials can make a home 
much more resilient.
    Additionally, maintaining proper drainage systems, and 
removing potential fire hazards from around the property can 
help. Insurance companies often provide discounts for homes 
that incorporate these protective measures, making them a 
worthwhile investment for homeowners.
    I believe the most essential aspect of managing insurance 
premiums is fostering a robust, competitive free market. 
Competition among insurance companies encourages innovation and 
efficiency, leading to better pricing and services for 
consumers. When insurers can properly underwrite and price for 
risk, they create a more balanced and fair market. This 
involves using advanced data analytics, modeling techniques to 
accurately assess the risk levels of different properties.
    By doing so, insurance companies can offer premiums that 
reflect the true risk of avoiding excessive charges for low 
risk homeowners, and ensuring high risk properties are 
adequately covered. Regulation also plays a crucial role in 
maintaining a healthy insurance market.
    Policyholders must strike a balance between consumer 
protection, and allowing insurers the freedom and flexibility 
to adjust their pricing based on the risk. Overly stringent 
regulations can stifle competition, and lead to market exits, 
reducing choices for consumers.
    We've seen this play out most recently in another state, 
where there were artificial caps put in place on premium 
increases. That worked well for consumers in the short-term, 
but then one by one, all of the major insurers began announcing 
they would cease to write any new homeowners insurance in that 
state. These are all private companies, and if there's not the 
freedom and flexibility to price their products properly, they 
may have to take drastic steps, as we've seen.
    Conversely, a well-regulated market encourages transparency 
and fairness, ensuring that homeowners have access to the most 
affordable and adequate coverage options. In conclusion, the 
rise in homeowners insurance premiums is driven by severe 
weather events and the impact of inflation. However, homeowners 
are not powerless in the face of these challenges.
    By investing in mitigation measures, and supporting a 
competitive insurance market, they can manage costs, and ensure 
their homes are protected. Collaboration between homeowners, 
insurers, and policymakers is essential to create a sustainable 
and a resilient insurance landscape.
    Thank you for your attention. I look forward to any 
questions you might have.
    Chairman Whitehouse. Thank you very much, sir. I appreciate 
you being here. Dr. Antoni.

     STATEMENT OF DR. EJ ANTONI, RESEARCH FELLOW, HERITAGE 
 FOUNDATION'S GROVER HERMANN CENTER FOR THE FEDERAL BUDGET \7\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

    \7\ Prepared statement of Mr. Antoni appears in the appendix on 
page 75.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Mr. Antoni. Chairman Whitehouse, Ranking Member Grassley, 
members of the Committee, thank you for the invitation to 
discuss with you today the current state of the insurance and 
reinsurance markets, and especially how they have been impacted 
by inflation and climate change.
    I am a Public Finance Economist and the Richard F. Aster 
Fellow at the Heritage Foundation, where I research fiscal and 
monetary policy with a particular focus on the Federal Reserve. 
I am also a senior fellow at the Committee to Unleash 
Prosperity.
    Since January 2021, prices have risen a cumulative 19.3 
percent on average in the American economy. Construction prices 
for single family homes have risen much faster, up 30.5 percent 
during the same time. This has been a direct result of public 
policy choices made here in Washington, D.C., and those choices 
have imposed significant costs on the insurance industry.
    Unprecedentedly large federal deficits over the last four 
years financed by the Federal Reserve's purchase of Treasury 
securities, increased the money supply by trillions of dollars, 
much faster than the increase in the real economy. Roughly, 
one-third of all dollars in existence were created in just a 
few years. That transferred wealth from the people to the 
government, and devalued the dollar at rates not seen in four 
decades.
    Consequently, it now takes more dollars to purchase the 
same products and services. This has increased repair and 
replacement costs throughout the economy, which has directly 
contributed to higher insurance premiums and losses for 
insurers, and reinsurers alike.
    Actuarial tables used in underwriting to estimate risk and 
future losses, as well as calculate premiums, rely heavily on 
those input costs. When prices increase radically, precisely as 
has happened over the last several years, old actuarial tables 
are of significantly less use when pricing premiums because 
they will grossly understate the future cost to the insurer.
    The sharp increase in total claim costs since 2019 has 
resulted in billions of dollars of losses for both insurers and 
reinsurers, prompting large premium increases to stop those 
losses. This has put significant financial stress on consumers, 
who are already struggling with a cost of living crisis, and 
are now faced with much higher insurance premiums, especially 
for homeowners insurance.
    Other factors, mostly stemming from public policy failures 
have contributed to today's insurance premiums as well. The 
widespread rioting caused by groups like Black Lives Matter 
(BLM) and Antifa in 2020 caused $100 billion in damages, a 
massive financial loss for the insurance industry. Likewise, 
general lawlessness in American cities over the last several 
years, and the refusal of government authorities to protect 
private property, has resulted in more damages, more claims, 
and ultimately higher premiums.
    Over regulation has also put upward pressure on premiums by 
increasing repair and replacement costs, a fact which is 
frequently omitted from the cost benefit analysis conducted 
when such regulations are proposed.
    Lastly, while some assert that climate change has been a 
significant contributor to higher premiums and general stress 
in the insurance industry, there is no empirical evidence to 
support this claim. In fact, the evidence indicates it is not 
true. For example, hurricanes are not becoming significantly 
more numerous, nor more powerful, but we are building more 
homes in their path, and we are building more expensive homes 
there too.
    The increase in claims related to weather events has 
undoubtedly increased, but it is not due to the climate 
changing. This is why the insurance and reinsurance markets do 
not rely heavily on climate modeling when pricing premiums. 
Furthermore, climate models are inherently subjective, not 
merely in how the models are constructed, but also by way of 
the inputs that the modeler uses.
    In other words, because insufficient data exists to create 
a predicted model, a human being must make wide ranging 
assumptions, and add those to the model in place of real world 
data. Thus, those models have no predictive value for insurers. 
If government broadly, and this Committee specifically, seek to 
relieve stress to the insurance industry, and lower costs to 
consumers, your focus should be on reducing the government 
spending that created the inflation, which was responsible for 
most of the increase in insurance premiums over the last 
several years.
    Passing a budget, ideally a balanced one, would be a good 
place to start. Thank you kindly for your time, and I look 
forward to your questions.
    Chairman Whitehouse. Thank you. Mr. Musulin, your testimony 
is that a major hurricane hitting a densely populated area like 
Miami could trigger large, and long-lasting post event 
assessments, or even exceed the system's funding capacity. What 
does exceeding the system's funding capacity look like? Your 
microphone please.
    Mr. Musulin. Well,--it's on, sir. Sorry. According to 
public statements, you know, the system concurrently cover 
events like in Citizens up to their modeled 100 year event. But 
also note that the ability of like Citizens to pay claims 
depends on the ability of the CAT Fund to pay its reinsurance 
obligations.
    There are certainly storm scenarios such as a repeat of the 
1926 great Miami hurricane, which have been estimated to cost 
well over $125 billion to the market, and there is a point at 
which an event becomes large enough to exhaust Florida's 
entity's ability to issue bonds and form assessments.
    Chairman Whitehouse. And then what happens?
    Mr. Musulin. Well, and then Florida will face some very 
difficult choices, which could include raising assessment caps, 
or finding some other source of funding, or taking other 
actions to try to----
    Chairman Whitehouse. You kind of step into the unknown at 
that point, right?
    Mr. Musulin. Yes, sir. I will note that that's an extreme 
event.
    Chairman Whitehouse. Yeah.
    Mr. Musulin. But it is something that has happened in the 
past.
    Chairman Whitehouse. You say that this combination of 
demographics, development and disasters, poses a significant 
risk to our financial system. What do you mean by risk to our 
financial system?
    Mr. Musulin. Well, Senator, if you look at the combination, 
as has been pointed out, of high growth and, you know, wealth 
accumulation in coastal areas, and you look at just what we've 
observed in the climate, much less what's predicted in the 
future, there is significant exposure along the coastline from 
Maine to Texas.
    In fact, my family is from New Jersey, and there is 
enormous development on the coast of New Jersey, and if we 
start to get major hurricanes coming through those areas, the 
building codes are probably not up to the same standards they 
are in Florida, and we could be seeing some significant losses, 
as I believe was pointed out in the recent----
    Chairman Whitehouse. And how does that create risk to the 
financial system?
    Mr. Musulin. Well, because it's sort of a set of dominos. 
You start with potential claims, issues with the insurers, you 
know, being stressed and not ability to pay claims. You have 
post event rate increases, as we've seen in Florida. You could 
have situations where people cannot secure insurance because 
they cannot afford it, then that affects their mortgage 
security and so on and so forth.
    So, there are a number of ways that this could affect the 
financial system, sir.
    Chairman Whitehouse. Cascading beyond the immediate 
insureds and becoming a national problem?
    Mr. Musulin. Well, I would just note, Senator, that in 
Florida the real problem started years after we got past 
Andrew, you know. We got past the claims in Andrew, and then 
the big problems occurred later when we tried to renew the 
policies.
    Chairman Whitehouse. Do you have your testimony in front of 
you?
    Mr. Musulin. Yes, sir.
    Chairman Whitehouse. Could you turn to page 9 where you 
have a graph?
    Mr. Musulin. Okay. Just a second please. I may need my 
glasses for this, excuse me. Age related issue. Yes, sir.
    Chairman Whitehouse. On page 9, you have a graph of the 
Florida Hurricane Catastrophe Fund, and there's a bottom line 
that says, ``total liquidity resources,'' below potential 
obligations, and then there's a number. Could you explain that 
line?
    Mr. Musulin. Yes. Well, basically that represents the 
amount of debt, which in this case $7 billion that they would 
have to issue in order to meet their claim obligations, because 
that is not money that they have on hand from their fund 
balances, pre-event bonding, et cetera.
    Chairman Whitehouse. Thank you. Ms. Sen, your testimony 
basically describes the Florida risk being transferred to the 
Federal Government through Demotech Insurance that taxpayers 
bear large unpriced exposure to climate risk through insurance 
market fragility, and the fragile insurance with inflated 
ratings now dominate the insurance markets in Florida. Is that 
correct?
    Dr. Sen. That's right.
    Chairman Whitehouse. And you see in this, and I'm quoting 
you here, ``parallels in the 2008 financial crisis.'' What 
parallels do you see?
    Dr. Sen. So, just like what happened during the financial 
crisis. There were rating agencies that gave out high ratings 
to pools of mortgages backed by sub-prime loans. Here we have a 
situation where rating agencies like Demotech are giving out 
inflated ratings to insurance companies. The end result is that 
it's just too much risk, and too many risky mortgages being 
originated, in this case backed by really low quality 
insurance, that are then entering the financial system.
    And the consequences of that have to be borne of course by 
the homeowners, but also the mortgage owners, GSEs, the 
lenders, and ultimately the federal and state government.
    Chairman Whitehouse. You say, this will be my last 
question. The fragility of property insurers is an important 
channel through which climate risk might threatened the 
stability of mortgage markets, and possibly the financial 
system. What do you mean when you refer to a risk to the 
financial system?
    Dr. Sen. Well, as I was explaining, the GSEs, if there are 
large losses in the GSE space, then those losses have to be 
paid by somebody, so the taxpayers. That's one channel through 
which you've got risk to the financial system. And the GSEs 
serve as a backstop in the mortgage market. They may not have 
the ability or the capacity to do so in such a scenario which 
affects mortgage-backed security prices, which are held by all 
sorts of financial institutions, so that's affecting all of 
these institutions.
    On the other hand, if you've got a bunch of insurers 
failing, another channel is these insurers are one of the 
largest investors in many asset classes like corporate bonds, 
equities and so on, and they may have to dump these securities 
at inopportune times, and that affects the prices of these 
securities as well.
    Chairman Whitehouse. Senator Grassley?
    Senator Grassley. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Dr. Antoni, is 
there any evidence to support the notion that climate change is 
the greatest threat to the insurance market?
    Mr. Antoni. No, Senator, there is not. And part of that has 
to do again with the fact that when we look at the models that 
are used to predict climate change, we simply don't have enough 
empirical data, with which we can input into those models, and 
so as a result of that we have to have human assumptions on 
what we think is going to happen, based essentially on a guess.
    And as a result of that, these models really are not of any 
predictive value, and that's why these models for the last 50 
years have been predicting catastrophic outcomes, none of which 
have come true.
    Senator Grassley. Okay. And also to you Dr. Antoni. How has 
the Biden administration's economic leadership failed to help 
our economy, and what can this Committee do to get our economy 
back on track?
    Mr. Antoni. Senator, I would say the biggest failure in 
terms of the Biden administration on economic policy has been 
constantly pushing for more and more spending, which this 
government and the American people simply cannot afford. And as 
a result of that we have today's not only inflation problem, 
but today's cost of living crisis as well.
    And the increase in insurance premiums is part of that. In 
terms of what this Committee and the Congress, more broadly, 
can do they need to be, in my opinion, sending the White House 
balanced budgets regardless of how large a budget the White 
House is asking for.
    Senator Grassley. And Commissioner Mulready, you heard me 
say that we had six property and casual companies pull out of 
Iowa, so from your experience what can states do to increase 
market competition and best serve policyholders?
    Commissioner Mulready. Thank you, Mr. Ranking Member. And 
if I can, I'd like to address something before that just 
quickly, this focus on the rating agencies. I would agree with 
that if that was sort of the be all end all, but the State 
Insurance Commissioners in each 50 states is tasked with the 
financial solvency of the insurance companies.
    We do not depend on rating agencies for that. We are doing 
financial exams on them. We are doing financial analysis every 
quarter on each one of them, so I would agree if that was the 
sort of be all, end all, forgive that phrase, but it's not at 
all. And we don't depend very much at all on those rating 
agencies from our standpoint.
    Okay. And that said to your question what can we do? In my 
comments I mentioned I think the most important factor is 
having a robust competitive free market. The state of Oklahoma, 
we have over 100 companies licensed to write homeowners 
insurance in our state. We had one company leave. You 
mentioned, I think, that you had a handful. We had one who 
exited nine different states because it was a very, very small 
piece of their business.
    But I think having a business friendly environment, and 
allowing folks to come in and offer their products, and offer 
consumers choices is the most, best thing that you can do. I 
think secondly, I can't focus enough on mitigation and 
resilience. The state of Oklahoma just passed two weeks ago the 
Governor signed a bill that we pushed through to Strengthen 
Oklahoma Homes Act.
    The Governor signed that in place. It will allow us to 
issue grants to Oklahomans as they're replacing their roofs, or 
they want to replace their roofs, you know, to upgrade to more 
resilient shingles, fasteners, wind proofing, that sort of 
thing. So, homes in Oklahoma can withstand, you know, up to 130 
mile an hour winds, so there is mitigation.
    There are things that can be done, I think that as 
policymakers, and as a former policymaker, the things we can do 
is help incentivize that. I know that the Senate has before 
them, I think it's Senate Bill 1953, pretty easy thing. Should 
be a no brainer to the Tax Parody Act for Disaster Mitigation, 
that will just allow state based programs, like ours, that 
other states are doing.
    Kentucky passed that this legislative session as well. It 
will address the tax issue for those folks that receive those 
grants.
    Senator Grassley. Commissioner, this is my last question. 
How have you worked with both political parties to reduce 
costs, remove red tape, and create a stronger economic 
environment for Oklahomans?
    Commissioner Mulready. Well, I blew with a lot of that in 
that last answer. I would just respond with that, that we have 
worked with that piece of legislation that passed. I will tell 
you that the National Council of Insurance Legislatures, NCOIL, 
if you didn't know there's an association of state legislatures 
who focus on insurance issues.
    The Chairman of that property county committee is a 
democrat from Oklahoma, who has pushed through, is leading the 
way to make that a model act across the country, and so there's 
a bipartisan effort there. I'll just tell you that when I was 
in the House, I worked on a substantial number of issues with 
the Senate Minority leader, who was a democrat attorney from 
Harvard, actually, and we did a lot of good work on the 
insurance side of things.
    Insurance isn't a partisan issue. Mitigation and resilience 
is not a partisan issue.
    Senator Grassley. For the majority I'm done.

                   STATEMENT OF SENATOR KAINE

    Senator Kaine [presiding]. Thank you, Ranking Member 
Grassley. I'm going to take over the helm, but unless my head 
swells too big, I'm not going to take the Chairman's seat. I'm 
going to do it from here, and I'm up next. Ms. Wood, I wanted 
to dig into your question. I really appreciate you being here 
and sharing your story.
    And tell me a little bit more. You thought moving to 
Tallahassee, farther away from the coast, where maybe the 
weather emergencies were less extreme, you thought that would 
be the solution, and yet why was that not the solution. You had 
a bad experience with this insurer that was going to cut you 
off without even telling you, and not even sharing the 
information about your roof.
    You did find another insurer, but were there not companies 
in the Tallahassee area when you talked to them that, you know, 
would offer affordable homeowners insurance, and is that part 
of the reason why you decided not to buy another home in 
Florida?
    Ms. Wood. Thank you. When we knew that South Florida was 
kind of the epicenter of the weather disasters, the insurance 
problem, and we thought Tallahassee would be safer. Our 
daughter lives there. And we started looking for homes, and we 
started talking to people about their insurance problems, and 
they were basically repeating the same things that were 
happening down south at a lower level.
    And we just a few weeks ago in Tallahassee had a freak 
thunderstorm come through, knock out the power to 70--80,000 
people for several days. And it wasn't a hurricane. It was a 
storm, a rainstorm. And then I started talking to people. How 
are you doing? What do you see here? And they all say they are 
seeing increased weather events where they live, where they 
didn't have that before.
    Senator Kaine. One of the things about your testimony 
that's important is, you know, I'm a senior citizen now. You 
are too, you and your husband, you describe the ability of 
seniors to just kind of tolerate an unknown upside increase in 
a big cost item like insurance is pretty darn limited.
    And so, when you were worried about the unpredictability of 
upside, that hit seniors particularly hard. Dr. Sen, I have a 
question for you. When we talk about the impact of insurance on 
housing, we're often thinking about homeowners, but there's a 
significant impact to multifamily properties as well.
    I reached out to the Virginia Housing Agency, which is our 
housing financing agency that largely supports low and moderate 
income rental properties, and I asked about what they're seeing 
on projects that their agency finances across the 119 local 
jurisdictions on which they have sufficient data, 105 are 
averaging at least double-digit annual increases between '21 
and '23, and 9 averaged triple digit increases, including 2 in 
the Hampton Roads area near the Atlantic Ocean, Virginia Beach, 
and Chesapeake. If you're a nonprofit developer, public housing 
agencies serving low and moderate income families, and it's an 
important thing, these increases are really tough on the 
developer, and then they get passed on to a tenant, unlimited 
means.
    Are the same dynamics in play when we talk about 
multifamily insurance markets as in single family?
    Dr. Sen. Yeah. So, in Florida, a similar set of insurers 
are sort of in both markets. And so I would expect similar 
dynamics play out. However, unfortunately we haven't been able 
to explore this in as much depth, in part because the data on 
multifamily insurance is not granular enough for us to look at 
it in any sort of systematic way.
    And that's why collecting these data, the Federal Insurance 
Office (FIO), National Association of Insurance Commissioners 
(NAIC) data call needs to focus across all segments of 
insurance and collect these data in a systematic way so that we 
can look at them because these issues are so much worse for 
people with a low income, in the low income segment. Their 
premiums are the highest, and they've also sort of grown the 
most in the past few years. I would also--sorry.
    Senator Kaine. Please.
    Dr. Sen. If I could also respond to Mr. Mulready on the 
point about regulators sort of looking at and reshaping 
agencies is not something that we need to look at. I would just 
point out that in Florida if you look at the number of exams of 
the Demotech rated insurers that by the way have a 20 percent 
insolvency rate relative to zero percent for traditional 
insurers, they get examined at the same rate as the traditional 
insurers like Farmers and All State get examined, which is not 
something that you would expect.
    If you're at more risk, you would expect regulators to come 
look at them, much, much more frequently. And they're just 
based on capital requirements that we have got that were 
designed in the 1980s. They are just not sensitive enough to 
new risks like wildfire and hurricanes and so on, and also not 
as well designed for under-diversified insurance companies 
because if so, all of these insurers were meeting the risk-
based capital requirements.
    However, at the same time they are going insolvent at the 
rate of 20 percent, so those two things sort of don't really go 
hand in hand.
    Senator Kaine. Thank you. Senator Johnson.

                  STATEMENT OF SENATOR JOHNSON

    Senator Johnson. Thank you, Mr. Part-time Chair, but now we 
got the real guy back. So, first of all I mean I think the 
premise of this hearing is just completely off. And I think the 
chart that the Chairman talked to you about, Mr. Musulin is 
indicative of that. So, the Florida Hurricane Catastrophic 
Fund, or Catastrophe Fund has a shortfall for a year about $7 
billion, right?
    Mr. Musulin. Yes, sir.
    Senator Johnson. So, we've had testimony before this 
Committee that we've already spent $5 to $6 trillion, that's 
$5,000 to $6,000 billion, trying to mitigate climate change, 
and we haven't made a dent in it.
    Their estimates are it's going to cost tens of trillions of 
dollars every year to reach net zero, so again, this is not the 
solution for a real problem, which is the broken insurance 
market. I have enough Wisconsin residents living on the Gulf 
Coast in Florida, you know, after Hurricane Ian we've got some 
real problems in Florida.
    But fixing climate change isn't the solution. So there are 
other causes, and that's what I really want to focus on too, 
Dr. Antoni. You talked about inflation. You talked about riots 
and lawlessness. You talked about high cost of properties being 
located in these vulnerable areas, and then you know, Mr. or 
Commissioner Mulready talked about the harmful regulations, you 
know, price caps.
    So, can you off the top of your head, nobody has calculated 
this, but if you can give me some sense of what percentage of 
the total problem is each one of those elements? I mean how 
much of--let's say it's $100 billion worth of a problem here. 
How much of that is due to inflation? How much to the 
lawlessness, the riots? How much to the high cost of 
properties?
    And then how much has been just from market distortions of 
pricing caps and that type of thing?
    Mr. Antoni. Senator, it's a very good question. The only 
caveat I want to say in answering this is that much of the 
regulatory costs actually get rolled into what we attribute to 
inflation. The reason for that is because typically, these 
regulatory costs because it's something being done by 
government mandate those are essentially assumed away under a 
hedonic adjustment.
    So, if we can just talk about government action broadly, 
and include both a failure to respond to criminal activity, and 
inflation and regulatory costs. That explains 90 percent 
approximately of the increase that we have seen in insurance 
premiums over the last several years.
    Senator Johnson. But I want to zero more--what do you think 
inflation is in that component? Just during inflation? I mean 
again, I know it's government action, but that government 
action. What percent is inflation? Is it half? Is it a quarter?
    Mr. Antoni. Probably about three-quarters, almost three-
quarters, Senator.
    Senator Johnson. Did you confirm that or?
    Commissioner Mulready. I just have a personal and timely 
example on the impact of inflation. About six months ago we had 
our roof replaced in Tulsa, Oklahoma. And 18 months prior I had 
a proposal to have the roof replaced, and that 18 months almost 
to the day, 18 months, same roofer, same roof, same materials, 
that cost had increased exactly 30 percent, from $20,000 to 
$26,000 for a roof that was strictly impact on material and 
labor.
    Senator Johnson. Okay. So that's overall, Florida is just a 
different animal here, right? I mean Florida's insurance market 
is completely screwed up because of hurricanes, because of 
probably regulation and that type of thing. Insurance 
conception is pretty simple. Yeah, we all pay a little bit in 
to protect ourselves against a catastrophic loss, and with the 
marketplace it moves around.
    If it's priced properly, it discourages people from putting 
high cost properties in a very vulnerable area, but it hasn't 
been priced properly, right? So, I guess I'm kind of wondering 
for a Wisconsin resident, with a Wisconsin house, how much are 
our insurance premiums being boosted because of the distortions 
in the marketplace because of over regulation?
    In other words, are we paying the price for all these 
hurricanes in Florida because the Florida insurance market is 
just screwed up? You have reinsurance companies that are losing 
money, and by the way, you did talk about high losses. What is 
that? I mean how big a loss was this last year? And is that 
just loss premium versus payments, or did this go into 
reserves?
    Is that the whole part? You get premiums, you set up 
reserves, you have a loss. Generally, the reserves ought to 
cover the loss, right? You shouldn't be taking them out of 
premiums. Premiums ought to just continue to fill up those 
reserves, Mr. Mulready.
    Commissioner Mulready. Yes. Thank you. And I hate to over 
simplify it, but sometimes I do when speaking publicly back in 
my state, and that is that you know it's not rocket science, 
it's math. It is premiums in, and claims paid out, and then 
what's the end result? Of course, there's investments and other 
things in there. They're over simplifying it.
    But it is math, and so the insurance companies have the 
role of determining what that math is going to be. What do 
those storms look like? I mean in Oklahoma, we get hit--we have 
a terrible spring. We have had 100 tornadoes this year, but the 
previous 3 years--the previous 4 years we were substantially 
below our average. So, you know, we've had a rough year with 
the two Enhanced Fujita Scale (EF) 2s, and so the companies 
will absorb that. Our role is to make sure they're financially 
solvent, they have risk-based capital that we monitor 
quarterly, and if they're investing in things that they 
shouldn't be investing in, or we have concerns.
    Heck, if a company drops a certain percentage of their 
surplus, they get a letter from me saying what's your plan? 
You've dropped a bit here, a little too much in this past year, 
and so that's where monitor makes sure it can be there to pay 
their claims. And like I said, we've had one company leave. 
We've had no property companies exit the market, but you've got 
to have that freedom, the flexibility to price it properly.
    Senator Johnson. One quick comment, closing comment is this 
hearing ought to be called Riskier Business, How Massive 
Deficit Spending Which Caused Inflation is Challenging the 
Insurance Markets. Would you kind of agree with that, Mr. 
Antoni?
    Mr. Antoni. I could not agree more, Senator.
    Senator Johnson. Thank you.
    Chairman Whitehouse. Senator Merkley.

                  STATEMENT OF SENATOR MERKLEY

    Senator Merkley. Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you all 
for bringing your expertise to bear. And the conversation is 
essentially focused on the challenge of flooding, hurricanes, 
so on and so forth, but let's go west for a moment. Let's go to 
New Mexico and California and Oregon and Washington, Idaho, 
Montana, Colorado, where wildfires are the real challenge.
    And we have a much longer, hotter, fire season. We have 
more lightning strikes. As the climate has changed, the result 
has been much more devastating wildfires. So, we are seeing 
folks go hmm, our insurance rates are really going up, and or I 
can't get insurance at all.
    I just held a group of town halls, nine town halls in 
Eastern Oregon, and the town hall for town hall, people came 
forward to say hey, I came to say I got a problem. My insurance 
company either has greatly raised the rate, or said they're not 
insuring anymore. What am I going to do?
    Well, so Dr. Sen, has any of your work focused on the 
challenge of the western insurance markets, and the growing 
destruction from climate change induced wildfires?
    Dr. Sen. Yes. I mean I do look at the homeowners insurance 
market more broadly as well, not just the Florida experience.
    Senator Merkley. And so, you're aware of this growing 
challenge, and here's the rub, which is if your company says it 
won't insure you, then you have a mortgage. And the mortgage 
company requires that you have insurance. And if you can't find 
a private insurer, they will put an insurance policy on your 
property.
    And the mortgage company actually gets a kickback on these 
arrangements. So, they have an incentive to go to a very high 
priced policy, and that may be totally unaffordable to any 
ordinary family. So, if you were at one of my town halls, and a 
citizen was saying I've got this problem because if I can't 
find an insurance company I'm going to lose my house because I 
won't meet the terms of the mortgage. What would be the right 
policy response to that challenge?
    Dr. Sen. Right. What you're describing is something that we 
obviously are already seeing, homeowners get forced based 
insurance, they have to go to insurers of last resort. And in 
all these situations they have--they're basically paying a lot 
of money for the coverage that they're getting.
    Ultimately what the solution is, is something that is 
obviously the main question that we are here to answer, but I 
would say that it is extremely hard to really figure out what 
the solution is in part because we are not in a position right 
now to even answer some basic facts about how big the problem 
is. What exactly the numbers look like.
    For instance, we do not know basic facts about how much 
coverage people have in different places. How much they're 
paying. It would be nice if we did know. And you don't know 
that it's at a granular enough level because the data does not 
exist. And the first steps towards designing any policy is for 
us to know exactly how bad the problem is, and then we sort of 
come up with the solution for that, and start to evaluate these 
different policy responses.
    Right now, we are sort of trying to make policy 
blindfolded.
    Senator Merkley. So, in looking at the materials, I saw 
that Citizens Property Insurance Company, I gather that's 
Louisiana and Florida, that have a completely state backed 
program. Well, all right, so if the state becomes the insurer 
of last resort, and they now suffer the same losses that a 
regular private insurance company is suffering, now the folks 
in the state are carrying massive debt. So that doesn't seem 
like a great solution.
    Dr. Sen. That's definitely a problem, right? I mean you 
do--the problem is of course whether the state then has the 
physical capacity to actually withstand a big loss, like a big 
hurricane season, which is a concern that was raised about 
Citizens. And in such a scenario, then you know, in a world 
where they do not have enough tax revenue, then they would have 
to sort of go into financial markets, try to borrow money, 
which could be very costly, and so on.
    So fiscally it's going to be very challenging for many 
cities and many municipalities and counties, and so on, yes.
    Senator Merkley. Well, let me close with this question, and 
perhaps Mr. Musulin, I'll direct this to you. Is it responsible 
for Congress to say we're going to ignore the enormous damage 
that climate change is doing across our country through fires, 
through smoke, through ice storms, through flash floods, 
through hurricanes, and we'll just somehow back up the 
insurance market.
    If we are looking ahead 20 or 30 years, shouldn't we be 
undertaking the core challenge of the overheating of this 
planet from carbon dioxide (CO2) and methane?
    Mr. Musulin. Well, Senator, one thing. I would never want 
to comment on what Congress should or shouldn't be doing. 
That's certainly not my job. But I certainly think that we, in 
many cases, look decades into the future as we do with say the 
social security trust funds, or many other things.
    And this is an issue which has the potential to cause, you 
know, significant losses to our economy and our system, and I 
think it would be responsible for everyone to start stress 
testing the system, to consider the possibilities. It doesn't 
have to be a certainty.
    We don't know the future for certain, but the possible 
exposure to damage up and down the east coast, and what that 
could mean for----
    Senator Merkley. And the west coast.
    Mr. Musulin. And I'm sorry, sir, I was referring to east 
coast because I was talking to Florida, but yes, the west 
coast, and across the country, sir, I should note, apologies. 
But yes, we should be considering that, and including 
wildfires, and certainly we've even seen issues like the tragic 
fires in Maui where things like the electrical grid can 
contribute to fires, and maybe we can kill two birds with one 
stone by hardening the grid against weather, and also building 
it out for renewable power, so there's a lot of opportunities 
for us to do both.
    Senator Merkley. I see my colleague, Senator Romney is 
here, and my time is up, but I really appreciate you all's 
contribution, and I'll just say from my perspective, it's 
hugely irresponsible for us to just say we can try to fix the 
insurance market, and fail to address the underlying causes 
that will get worse with every succeeding decade far into the 
future.
    Chairman Whitehouse. Senator Romney.

                  STATEMENT OF SENATOR ROMNEY

    Senator Romney. My colleague, Mr. Merkley, I wish there was 
something we could do that would reduce the climate change 
we're seeing, and the warming of the planet. But I have seen 
absolutely nothing proposed by anyone that reducing 
CO2 emissions, methane gases, and the heating of the 
planet.
    Climate change is going to happen because of the 
development in China and Indonesia and Brazil, and the only 
thing that actually makes any measurable impact at all is 
putting a price on carbon, and no one seems to be willing to 
consider doing that. Everything else that's being talked about 
in the climate front.
    Chairman Whitehouse. I've got two bills.
    Senator Romney. I know, you and I are. But you guys had 
reconciliation. You could have done it all by yourselves, and 
you didn't. So, the idea that somehow we're going to fix 
climate and solve the insurance problem, is pie in the sky. 
That's avoiding the reality that we can't fix climate, because 
that's a global issue, not an American issue.
    Anyway, let me turn back to insurance. I'm not going to 
count that as part of my time. Let's see. I'm going to ask you 
ladies and gentlemen about what we ought to do to try to help 
people be able to afford insurance. And I listen to the causes, 
inflation being the largest single one.
    And of course, seniors are on fixed income, so inflation is 
a huge problem as Ms. Wood has indicated. Building in high risk 
areas is a big part of the problem, and then there's climate. 
We're not going to be able to fix global climate, not any time 
I am aware of, and according to Mr. Antoni, so far at least 
with regards to hurricanes and so forth, there's no evidence 
that climate is causing more hurricanes, although I think it's 
fair. In the American West, where I come from, more fires, 
drought is climate related, and so that's just a reality. So, 
the question is what actions can we take? Fiscal reform? Yes. 
To try and deal with inflation, except I want to note something 
for Mr. Antoni because you're esteemed at the Heritage 
Foundation.
    72 percent of federal spending is not part of the budget we 
vote on. So, we talk about Biden wants to spend all this--72 
percent. We don't vote on it. We only vote on 28 percent. Half 
of that is the military. We republicans want more military 
spending, not less.
    So that means the other 14 percent, which is what the 
democrats want to expand, there's no way we can reduce the 14 
percent enough to have any impact on the massive deficits we're 
seeing. So, there's going to have to be a broader analysis of 
what we have to do to reign in our fiscal challenges. I just 
want to underscore that.
    I would say a second thing we can do besides fiscal reform, 
and dealing with inflation is stopping subsidizing high risk 
areas. Basically, subsidizing people to build expensive places 
along the coast, and in places that are at risk of wildfire. 
And we subsidize that, and that creates huge financial risk to 
the system.
    And finally, mitigation of one kind of another. That's the 
other thing we can do, it's all sorts of mitigation, forestry 
management, having people move in places that are not high 
risk. But if you want to live in a big house on the coast, 
you're going to have to spend a lot of money to insure it, or 
take huge risk, that's just the reality.
    So, those are the three I come up with. Stop the subsidy, 
mitigation, and fiscal reform. What else am I missing? Mr. 
Musulin, and I'm just going to go down the line for those that 
are sort of in this area to give me your perspectives.
    Mr. Musulin. Well, thank you Senator, and I'd agree with 
all of those things, and I'd also add that we need to start 
thinking about future proofing our building codes and land use 
policies. The sea levels are rising. There's, you know, if 
you're going to build a house that's supposed to last 75 years, 
you'll ought to be thinking about the climate in 75 years when 
you, you know, give somebody a permit to build there.
    So, I'd say that's important. I'd also say that, you know, 
large disasters also drive inflation because it puts more 
pressure and demand on labor and materials. More disasters mean 
supplies that could have been used to build new homes for 
Americans, are diverted to rebuild homes from the past. So 
certainly, doing things to reduce the vulnerability of 
properties, and improve the resilience is important.
    And I do think, sir, that there are things we can do about 
climate change with respect over periods of decades that can 
make a difference in the long run. Thank you.
    Senator Romney. Thank you. Yes, Ms. Sen.
    Dr. Sen. Sure. So, before that, the point about this--one 
point about inflation that we are missing which is without 
doubt it is a contributing factor, but the U.S. has had 
inflation in the past without such an acute crisis in insurance 
markets. So, whether that is the biggest cause or not, is up 
for debate.
    I don't think we have reached a conclusion on inflation 
being the biggest contributor of rising insurance costs.
    Senator Romney. It's just a big one. You'd agree it's a big 
one.
    Dr. Sen. I agree it's a big one, but I wouldn't say it's 
the biggest one.
    Senator Romney. Good enough.
    Dr. Sen. In terms of policy solutions, I completely agree 
with you on we need to stop subsidizing building in high risk 
areas. That's definitely one of the things that we need to do 
that. Mitigation, another point that you bring up, and on that 
I would say not only do we need to harden our homes, but we 
also need to harden our financial institutions, our banks, and 
our insurance companies in order to make them withstand really 
large climate shocks that are for sure coming their way.
    Senator Romney. Thank you. Ms. Wood, I'm going to let you 
pass on this, just because that's not your area of expertise. 
Your experience was something which focused our thinking today. 
Mr. Mulready
    Commissioner Mulready. Thank you, Senator. I would say amen 
to your comments, but I will give you three quick things. 
Number one, the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) has 
a survey out that states that every $1 spent in mitigation 
saves $6 in loss claims. It pays off.
    Number two, unfortunately a lot of communities have to have 
a disaster happen. In Moore, Oklahoma, back a dozen years ago, 
an EF5 hit, it was totally devastating. After that, the City of 
Moore changed their zoning. They changed their building zoning 
codes.
    And then third, the City of Tulsa, back in the '80s had 
horrible flooding happened, and so they invested over decades, 
decades, infrastructure to prevent flooding. Now, one of only 
two communities in the country that are class 1 NFIP rated.
    Senator Romney. Thank you. Mr. Antoni.
    Mr. Antoni. Senator, regarding the wildfires out west.
    I think California is a really good example of this. They 
have a combination--a deadly combination of terrible forest 
management, where they prohibit things like controlled burns to 
get rid of underbrush, and then also not investing enough in 
public utility infrastructure, so that they have power lines 
that are throwing sparks, for example, and starting these 
wildfires.
    Regarding your comments on the budget, you're absolutely 
right. At this point non-discretionary spending and gross 
interest on the debt exceed tax revenue. And tax revenue, as a 
percentage of the economy right now, is near an all time high. 
So, you're not going to actually get much more in terms of 
revenue out of this economy, and so that leaves you with 
essentially two options, both of what you should do.
    The first is the economy needs to grow a heck of a lot 
faster than it is right now. And then the other thing is that 
you need to address even non-discretionary parts of the budget.
    Chairman Whitehouse. Thanks, Senator Romney. Senator Van 
Hollen.

                STATEMENT OF SENATOR VAN HOLLEN

    Senator Van Hollen. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, thank all of 
you for your testimony today. You know, there are a lot of 
folks out there who still deny that climate change is real, and 
the impacts and the human component. I've always believed that 
when skeptics began to feel the impact in their pocketbooks it 
would become more real.
    And that is unfortunately what we are seeing, and today's 
hearing is an example. When homeowners find that either they 
cannot get homeowners insurance, or it becomes so expensive 
they can't afford it, then we're seeing the real pocketbook 
impacts, and Ms. Wood, thank you for your testimony. I listened 
in to C-SPAN, and I think that really brings things home to 
what more and more Americans will be experiencing.
    You know, Swiss Re has done a number of studies on this, 
and yes, of course there are a number of components to 
increasing insurance premiums. No one denies that there aren't 
different pieces, but according to Swiss Re, climate impacts, 
and the growing risk from climate is the predominant factor in 
what they predict will be increasing costs due to climate 
risks.
    And I do know in my State of Maryland that in areas that 
are particular vulnerable we've seen property insurance rates 
going up in the Ocean City area and others. One way to address 
this, and I think it was discussed in a different matter, is 
the need to get the data, and get the consensus on where the 
risks lie, which is why last year Senator Whitehouse, Senator 
Warren, and I sent a letter to the Treasury Department to the 
Federal Insurance Office, urging them to collect information 
from different states.
    I am a supporter of a state-based insurance system for 
property and casualty insurance, but I do think it would 
benefit all of us to have a sort of national yardstick against 
which we can measure what's happening. So, Dr. Sen, could you, 
you know, talk a little bit about the benefit of having a 
common source of insurance data through the FIO, and how that 
could benefit state regulators and benefit all of us?
    Dr. Sen. Yeah. Absolutely. Thanks for bringing that up. 
That's just the first order of importance I think because we 
don't even know the basic facts about this problem at the 
granular level. The risks here are local, and so we need to 
know what's going on ZIP Code by ZIP Code, census track by 
census track.
    And for regulators to be able to figure out exactly how 
much risk is sitting with each of these insurance companies, 
they need to know how many policies they're writing, what type 
of coverage they're selling, and what cancellations are looking 
like in different ZIP Codes, because only then can they figure 
out exactly how exposed these different insurers are.
    And then they can start designing policy around whether the 
risk-based capital ratios look all right or not, or should we 
put a surcharge on wildfires, or hurricanes and so on, and we 
do need a comprehensive picture. We just can't have a 
particular state regulator look at the risks in that state 
because of course, insurers are selling insurance all over the 
country, and we need to get a comprehensive picture of all of 
that.
    Senator Van Hollen. No, I appreciate that. I gather that 
the Treasury Department is getting some resistance from some 
state insurance regulators. I hope we can overcome that because 
I'm not sure why anyone would want to deny, you know, the 
American people the benefit of the facts here.
    If I could ask you, Mr. Musulin, with respect to some of 
the sort of measures we should be taking. I mean obviously we 
want to collect information here, in the Budget Committee, but 
what kind of measures should we be taking now to address and 
mitigate some of these issues, and what are the consequences of 
failing to do so?
    Mr. Musulin. Well, as I said, I think the biggest thing we 
need to do is future proofing our building code land use 
policies as I've said before, you know. We have to recognize 
that we're going to be facing extreme weather in places that we 
haven't experienced it before, and we've got to certainly 
address that.
    I also think it's important to address climate change. I 
will just note that sometimes climate change itself can 
contribute to the inflation we've been talking about. For 
example, there were beetle infestations and droughts and fires 
in Canada, which decimated some of the lumber crop and the 
forest, and led to a fivefold increase in the cost of lumber a 
few years ago.
    So, some of this, you know, claims inflation is actually 
related to climate change, and I think we need to address that. 
And we also need to recognize that we have to build smarter and 
protect our people better to make sure that, you know, they've 
got affordable insurance, and that they can fix up their houses 
when there's a disaster.
    Senator Van Hollen. Appreciate that. Mr. Mulready, I saw 
you wanted to comment on that first question.
    Commissioner Mulready. Thank you, Senator. I just wanted to 
follow-up on our comment about FIO and the collection of data. 
Just if you didn't know, the NAIC, National Association of 
Insurance Commissioners, is in the midst of a data collection 
right now.
    Senator Van Hollen. Yeah.
    Commissioner Mulready. They will collect that data for at 
least 80 percent of the homeowner's market, and we have an 
agreement with FIO to be sharing that data with them. They 
originally came to us. I got a letter from FIO, and they were 
requesting data that we did not actually collect at the ZIP 
Code level, and they have a very stringent timeline for that, 
so my response wasn't no, it was just look, we can't meet that 
timeline.
    We don't collect that today. We can in the future, but from 
that is where this is ground, the data call by the NEIC.
    Senator Van Hollen. So, I appreciate. I saw that there had 
been now this effort on behalf of the state, so has this now 
been worked out? Are there any states that are objecting to 
your knowledge at this point in time in terms of sharing data?
    Commissioner Mulready. I don't know about specific states.
    Senator Van Hollen. Okay.
    Commissioner Mulready. We will be collecting data that will 
represent at least 80 percent of the market share.
    Senator Van Hollen. Okay. Thank you. Thank you.
    Chairman Whitehouse. Thank you for that, by the way, we are 
watching the data call, and we're grateful to the NAIC for that 
effort. Senator Kaine had another question or two?
    Senator Kaine. Just a follow-up comment, and it's really on 
that point. I think we often assume that rates charged 
homeowners by homeowners insurance is based upon some rational 
algorithm using actuarial data, but that is not always true. My 
legal career, the highlight of it was a lawsuit that I brought 
against the Nationwide Insurance Company for redlining minority 
neighborhoods all of the United States in 1998.
    It led to the largest civil rights jury verdict in the 
history of the United States at that time. And we were able to 
gather data that through the discovery process that our 
insurance regulators didn't have.
    Other states insurance regulators didn't have, and it 
demonstrated that part of the entire set of where we put 
agents, where we sell policies, how we price policies was based 
on the racial composition of neighborhoods using ZIP Code plus 
four data, that essentially labeled every neighborhood in the 
United States in categories that were either we want to do 
business here or we don't.
    And so, the notion that this is all, you know, actuarial 
and math and it's based upon claims experience and investment 
income, those are factors, but until you get the data you can't 
be confident that there are not other factors at work that, you 
know, might explain why, you know, Ms. Wood--this whole thing 
about not even being told that your policy was being cancelled, 
and being told your roof flunked, but they're not going to give 
you the information about your roof.
    And the next company that analyzes it says your roof is 
just fine, you really can't assume that the system is being 
fairly operated in accord with actuarial data until you get the 
data. And I applaud the NAIC's effort, and Dr. Sen, your 
testimony and your answers to questions.
    You say we need to know a lot more to understand what's 
going on. I do believe these increases in places like Florida, 
or coastal communities in Virginia, extreme weather events are 
playing a role, but there may be other factors that we need to 
dig into deeper if we are going to try to find the right relief 
so that homeowners like Ms. Wood and others don't face the kind 
of problems they're experiencing. Thank you.
    Chairman Whitehouse. Thanks very much. I appreciate the 
conversation we've had here, and I appreciate all of the 
witnesses. I would like to ask two questions for the record, 
which will give you a chance to deliberate a minute and put 
your thoughts in writing.
    The first is for Dr. Sen. Here's your statement. ``Our 
analysis shows that a vast majority of the Demotech insurers 
would not meet GSE eligibility if subjected to traditional 
rating agencies methodologies.'' Would you be willing to 
elaborate on that in a paragraph or two, so that I can better 
understand specifically what the methodological differences are 
that you're referring to, and why they're allowed to exist?
    Dr. Sen. Absolutely.
    Chairman Whitehouse. Thank you. I appreciate that. And Mr. 
Musulin, to your statement, the risks that threaten the U.S. 
coastal home insurance industry are potentially devastating. 
Could you elaborate on what the elements are of that risk, or 
of those risks, you used the plural, specifically including 
what role you think inflation plays?
    Mr. Musulin. Yeah.
    Chairman Whitehouse. And elaborating a big further on what 
you mean by potentially devastating? You are an actuary, are 
you not?
    Mr. Musulin. Yes, sir. I am.
    Chairman Whitehouse. Yeah. Actuaries are not known for 
hyperbole.
    Mr. Musulin. No. But one of the lessons we need to learn 
though, sir, is the difference between potentially the correct 
answer, and the right answer. And often those two are somewhat 
different, and I'll strive to give you a mixture of both.
    Chairman Whitehouse. Okay. I'm not challenging your 
testimony here. I'm just asking for further elaboration.
    Mr. Musulin. No. I understand that.
    Chairman Whitehouse. On the point. What do you mean by 
devastating? Who gets devastated? How? Elaborate on that, and 
what are these risks, and specifically what role does inflation 
play because we are, you know, watching this very carefully, 
and we're seeing people who are truly expert in the insurance 
market, including major insurers themselves, very clearly say 
that the problem here is climate change, and the uncertainty of 
weather events, and harms that they're not able to anticipate 
or predict for.
    So, we obviously heard other views here from entities that 
are funded by the fossil fuel industry, and it would just be 
helpful to know what your views are more specifically to that.
    Mr. Musulin. Yes, sir. And I'll be happy. If I might, just 
one quick comment that you know, regardless of whether we think 
we know what the future holds or not, it's well established 
practice in economics that uncertainty has a positive cost.
    Chairman Whitehouse. Yeah.
    Mr. Musulin. And the more uncertain we are about things, 
the higher the cost is, and I think that's a significant factor 
here at play too. And I'll make sure I put that in my comment.
    Chairman Whitehouse. That and six-inch hailstones too. We 
may be setting new records. Thank you so much.
    Senator Kaine. Mr. Chairman.
    Chairman Whitehouse. Yeah.
    Senator Kaine. One other thing. My innate sense of fairness 
makes me add an addendum to the comment that I last made about 
insurance rates not being purely actuarial in nature. I talked 
about the suit against Nationwide. After we successfully sued 
them, they dropped all the use of the non-actuarial data. They 
endeavored to do better, and years later they said you know 
what, we actually not only did good, but by doing good we did 
well because minority neighborhoods turned out to be really 
good places to sell insurance.
    And the homeowners to whom we sold insurance turned out to 
be really loyal customers. So, I didn't want to leave it 
hanging in midair with just the lawsuit against Nationwide, I 
also wanted to indicate that when we got information and put it 
out there, they took corrective action, and the corrective 
action ended up, you know, working out well for all concerned.
    Chairman Whitehouse. Senator Lujan has appeared with 
seconds before the gavel, so let me respect his arrival by 
allowing him to ask his questions. I will just allow him a 
minute to get himself settled in his seat here, and thank him 
for attending. I want to thank all of you for attending.
    I think that the personal experience of Ms. Wood was really 
important because, you know, behind the statistics and the 
warnings and the threats, and the risks, and the potentially 
devastating consequences that are described by our expert 
witnesses, are individual homeowners who are often swept around 
in the maelstrom of this insurance mess, not knowing where to 
turn, being shuffled around among insurance companies, not 
getting straight answers.
    And it is a hell of a tough time to be a consumer, and I 
want to thank you for putting such a good, human face on that 
part of this problem. Senator Lujan. Our closing questions.

                   STATEMENT OF SENATOR LUJAN

    Senator Lujan. Mr. Chairman, thank you so very much for 
this hearing. Thank you all for being here today, as well. I 
very much appreciate that now. Two years ago, we had the most 
destructive fire in our state's history in New Mexico. The 
Hermit's Peak Calf Canyon fire tore through my state.
    This year, Southeastern New Mexico is currently the only 
region in the nation experiencing exceptional drought, 
according to the U.S. drought monitor. The National Interagency 
Fire Center reports above normal wildfire potential in wide 
swaths of New Mexico for most of the summer.
    I think everyone that has been watching the news has seen 
the heat that's going to hit the southwest over the next few 
days. Now the potential for another massive wildfire is real. 
These climate driven extreme weather conditions are changing 
the way New Mexican businesses operate.
    Electric co-ops are just one example. Co-ops are struggling 
to obtain wildfire insurance because of the chance their 
equipment is faulted for a major fire because their lines have 
to connect communities. And in places like where I live, the 
shortest path and the path where they're located is often in 
some of these areas where there's a lot of trees, and higher 
elevations as well.
    Co-ops and utilities are dealing with frequent extreme 
weather. They're also hard at work at the daunting task of 
clearing some of these easements as well because it doesn't 
take much when it gets dry for something to tip over. And once 
that happens, and clips one of those lines, then we lose 
everything.
    And the Hermit's Peak Calf Canyon fire region, the 
bipartisan Infrastructure Law is providing money to the local 
co-op through the Grid Resilience and Innovation Partnership 
Program. The co-op will deploy modern grid technologies that 
both mitigate wildfire risk, and help recover from power 
outages.
    Now, Mr. Musulin, is that correct?
    Mr. Musulin. Close enough, sir.
    Senator Lujan. Musulin.
    Mr. Musulin. Musulin. That's fine, sir.
    Senator Lujan. Musulin, thank you. What can Congress do to 
support the rural co-ops, and other critical infrastructure 
adapting to climate?
    Mr. Musulin. Well, thank you for that question, and I think 
there's no doubt that there's enormous opportunities in rural 
infrastructure and power grids to do both. Hardening those 
grids to support, or sorry--to prevent tragedies like the fires 
we've seen, and also to support growth in rural communities, 
and to prepare the grid for the increase in renewable power, 
which is inevitably going to occur in the next several decades.
    So, we can actually spend the same dollar multiple times, 
and accomplish multiple benefits by investing in grid 
hardening, and also you know, a more renewable friendly grid at 
the same time.
    Senator Lujan. I appreciate that. When major wildfire 
strikes it destroys both homes and critical infrastructure. If 
these basic services aren't quickly rebuilt, homeowners may be 
forced to leave their communities. And in a small town, in a 
small community, even a few people leaving, completely erodes 
the tax base.
    It erodes the small business that may be in that community 
that everyone depends on. An eroded tax base undermines public 
services like emergency response and schools. This can decimate 
a town. Dr. Sen, if folks who want to rebuild can't get 
insurance, will these communities struggle to thrive?
    Dr. Sen. Yeah, absolutely. Insurance is sort of required if 
you want to maintain a mortgage, and so in the absence of 
finding insurance, folks would either be forced by lenders, or 
they would have to resort to insurers of last resort through 
the markets, and in all of these cases the costs for the 
coverage that is being sold is extremely high.
    And so, there is an immediate financial implication for the 
household, exactly when they're also going through the 
devastation of having their home destroyed. On top of that, the 
other challenge is to not have enough insurance going forward 
for future shocks. And if you do not have adequate coverage for 
all of the future shocks that might be coming, then it makes 
you that much more vulnerable for, you know, the next fire.
    Senator Lujan. I appreciate that. Now the Hermits Peak Calf 
Canyon fire was a prescribed burn that got out of control. It 
was started by the federal government. Now, because of this the 
Federal Government has a responsibility to the people of New 
Mexico to clean up and rebuild our communities.
    Disaster costs keep rising, or as disaster costs keep 
rising, FEMA is reporting that its disaster fund could run out 
this summer, and require additional Congressional 
appropriations. Yes or no, are rebuilding efforts at FEMA 
strained by the cost of disasters around the country, Rade?
    Mr. Musulin. Yes. You know, to the extent that FEMA has 
finite resources, more disasters mean more stress on FEMA, but 
I'm not really able to comment on what this may mean for the 
fiscal situation under the budget because I'm not familiar with 
that.
    Senator Lujan. I appreciate that. And Mr. Chairman, when I 
sat on the Public Regulation Commission in New Mexico, it was a 
hodgepodge of agencies. We were essentially the Public Utility 
Commission. But New Mexico had insurance underneath it. The 
Superintendent of Insurance worked for the Commission. We had 
oversight over them.
    I just certainly hope that through our experiences 
throughout the decades, and even now, as we're seeing what's 
happening in this particular space, that we have folks that are 
willing to police themselves, that if a company is not a good 
company, that some rogue Commissioner doesn't try to relocate 
them into a jurisdiction that may allow them to get licensed 
there, and then that company preys on other companies, or other 
families, and things of that nature, which only compounds the 
problem we have today.
    That was happening when I was elected to that particular 
body. And it's just not right. So, with all the challenges that 
we have across the country, I certainly hope that there's a way 
for state by state to get this right. If not, Mr. Chairman, we 
all need to have a serious conversation about what's going to 
happen at the federal level to make sure that we're going to be 
doing some things in a different way for the good of all the 
people that we represent all across America.
    So, thank you very much for the time, and thank you for 
letting me go over my time.
    Chairman Whitehouse. Thank you, Senator Lujan. Thank you to 
all of the witnesses. Mr. Musulin, sorry I said Musulin before, 
Musulin, if you don't mind me adding an edit to the question 
for the record (QFR) request to you, it would be also to 
elaborate a little bit on your description of the cycle between 
climate causing inflation, and inflation itself.
    We certainly heard a lot of testimony about that in the 
agriculture area here with respect to shipping delays in the 
Panama Canal, and through a whole lot of other vectors, so I 
would appreciate that. Anybody else with questions for the 
record, they'll be due by noon tomorrow, by email, or with a 
signed hard copy delivered to the Committee Clerk.
    We would ask that QFRs be responded to within 7 days of 
receipt, and with that the hearing is adjourned.
    Commissioner Mulready. Mr. Chairman, okay. If I could, just 
one minute on Senator Lujan's comments on FEMA, and at the risk 
of, as my mom would say, sounding like a broken record, I've 
met with FEMA numerous times this year in the State of Oklahoma 
with some of our disasters.
    The FEMA Administrator Criswell came to Sulphur, and I 
toured that with her, and she did a wonderful job by the way. 
But FEMA's own survey from a few years ago again, shows a 6 to 
1 return on dollars invested in mitigation. FEMA comes into our 
communities, there's been numerous of them this spring, and 
they help out with the individual systems, and as well as U.S. 
Small Business Administration (SBA) loans.
    And some of that money was put towards mitigation, I think 
that would be extremely helpful. Thank you.
    Chairman Whitehouse. I think that's a good point to end on. 
Thanks very much everyone. The hearing is adjourned.
    [Whereupon, at 11:53 a.m., Wednesday, June 5, 2024, the 
hearing was adjourned.]

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