[Senate Hearing 118-325]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
S. Hrg. 118-325
THE FINDINGS AND RECOMMENDATIONS OF THE
WILDLAND FIRE MITIGATION AND MANAGE-
MENT COMMISSION
=======================================================================
HEARING
BEFORE THE
COMMITTEE ON
ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES
UNITED STATES SENATE
ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
__________
MARCH 12, 2024
__________
[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Printed for the use of the
Committee on Energy and Natural Resources
Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov
__________
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
55-887 WASHINGTON : 2025
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COMMITTEE ON ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES
JOE MANCHIN III, West Virginia, Chairman
RON WYDEN, Oregon JOHN BARRASSO, Wyoming
MARIA CANTWELL, Washington JAMES E. RISCH, Idaho
BERNARD SANDERS, Vermont MIKE LEE, Utah
MARTIN HEINRICH, New Mexico STEVE DAINES, Montana
MAZIE K. HIRONO, Hawaii LISA MURKOWSKI, Alaska
ANGUS S. KING, JR., Maine JOHN HOEVEN, North Dakota
CATHERINE CORTEZ MASTO, Nevada BILL CASSIDY, Louisiana
JOHN W. HICKENLOOPER, Colorado CINDY HYDE-SMITH, Mississippi
ALEX PADILLA, California JOSH HAWLEY, Missouri
Renae Black, Staff Director
Sam E. Fowler, Chief Counsel
Sean Mullin, Professional Staff Member
Justin J. Memmott, Republican Staff Director and Chief Counsel
Kristin Sleeper, Republican Professional Staff Member
C O N T E N T S
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OPENING STATEMENTS
Page
Manchin III, Hon. Joe, Chairman and a U.S. Senator from West
Virginia....................................................... 1
Barrasso, Hon. John, Ranking Member and a U.S. Senator from
Wyoming........................................................ 3
Cantwell, Hon. Maria, a U.S. Senator from Washington............. 4
WITNESSES
Harrell, Meryl, Deputy Under Secretary, Natural Resources and the
Environment, U.S. Department of Agriculture.................... 5
Mooney, Joan, Principal Deputy Assistant Secretary for Policy,
Management, and Budget, U.S. Department of the Interior........ 18
Desautel, Cody, Executive Director, Confederated Tribes of the
Colville Reservation........................................... 29
McDonald, Madelene, Senior Watershed Scientist, Denver Water..... 38
Norris, Kelly, State Forester, Wyoming State Forestry Division... 45
ALPHABETICAL LISTING AND APPENDIX MATERIAL SUBMITTED
American Property Casualty Insurance Association:
Statement for the Record..................................... 152
Barrasso, Hon. John:
Opening Statement............................................ 3
Cantwell, Hon. Maria:
Opening Statement............................................ 4
Desautel, Cody:
Opening Statement............................................ 29
Written Testimony............................................ 31
Responses to Questions for the Record........................ 134
Foster, Susan:
Statement for the Record..................................... 163
Harrell, Meryl:
Opening Statement............................................ 5
Written Testimony............................................ 8
Responses to Questions for the Record........................ 79
Karuk Tribe:
Letter for the Record........................................ 170
Good Fire II, Executive Summary.............................. 171
Good Fire II, Full Report.................................... 180
Manchin III, Hon. Joe:
Opening Statement............................................ 1
McDonald, Madelene:
Opening Statement............................................ 38
Written Testimony............................................ 40
Responses to Questions for the Record........................ 139
Mooney, Joan:
Opening Statement............................................ 18
Written Testimony............................................ 20
Responses to Questions for the Record........................ 110
Norris, Kelly:
Opening Statement............................................ 45
Written Testimony............................................ 47
Responses to Questions for the Record........................ 142
(The) Pew Charitable Trusts et al.:
Letter for the Record........................................ 252
Rural Voices for Conservation Coalition:
Statement for the Record..................................... 251
(The) Stewardship Project:
Statement for the Record..................................... 158
Tree Care Industry Association:
Letter for the Record........................................ 255
Western Governors' Association:
Letter for the Record........................................ 258
Policy Resolution 2021-06.................................... 259
Policy Resolution 2024-02.................................... 264
Policy Resolution 2022-02.................................... 272
Policy Resolution 2023-04.................................... 278
THE FINDINGS AND RECOMMENDATIONS OF THE WILDLAND FIRE MITIGATION AND
MANAGEMENT COMMISSION
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TUESDAY, MARCH 12, 2024
U.S. Senate,
Committee on Energy and Natural Resources,
Washington, DC.
The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:00 a.m. in
Room SD-366, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Joe Manchin
III, Chairman of the Committee, presiding.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. JOE MANCHIN III,
U.S. SENATOR FROM WEST VIRGINIA
The Chairman. The meeting will come to order.
This morning, we are going to be discussing the findings
and recommendations that recently came out of the Wildland Fire
Mitigation and Management Commission. The Commission was
created by the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law, taken from a bill
sponsored by Senators Romney and Kelly. The 50-person
commission was co-chaired by FEMA and the Departments of
Agriculture and the Interior. Its directive was to recommend
policies to improve federal forest and wildfire management.
Over the course of a year, they examined everything from active
forest management to contracts for firefighting aircraft, and
came up with 167 unanimous recommendations. We envy you on
unanimous recommendations. We are going to focus on
recommendations targeted at the federal land management
agencies, and our witnesses represent a cross-section of the
diverse topics explored by the Commission.
To set the scene, even though it's only March, we have
already had record-breaking wildfires in the U.S. The
Smokehouse Creek wildfire two weeks ago in Texas scorched more
than one million acres, killing two people, and destroying
hundreds of homes. This was the largest wildfire in Texas
history, and it happened in February. It literally snowed while
the fire was still raging. This isn't and shouldn't be normal,
but wildfires are now breaking records every year.
The severity of these fires has also become a significant
drain on U.S. resources and our productivity, even beyond the
devastating loss of life and property. For starters, U.S.
spending on fire suppression has increased by 300 percent since
the 1980s, even after accounting for inflation. Wildfires also
slow down business and tourism, and severely burned landscapes
filter less water, store less carbon, and transport more
sediment to our streams and reservoirs. The National Institute
of Standards and Technology attempted to quantify the economic
impact of these fires in 2017 and found that the cost and
losses could exceed $400 billion per year. I know that my
colleagues on the Committee, particularly those from western
states, are all too familiar with these statistics and the
terrible tragedies that accompany severe wildfire.
Congress, however, has taken some action to get our forests
back to a healthier condition. Between the Bipartisan
Infrastructure Law and the Inflation Reduction Act, federal
land management agencies will receive over $24 billion. That's
a lot of money. These laws also included some common-sense
reforms, like streamlining the permitting for fuel breaks near
communities. They also provided the brave men and women serving
as federal wildland firefighters with a temporary pay
supplement to better reflect the critical, but dangerous job
they perform.
I want to thank all 50 members of the Wildland Fire
Mitigation and Management Commission for their time and effort
spent studying this issue and providing us with options to
further improve our forests and wildfire management practices.
Clearly, with 167 recommendations, you discovered plenty of
issues, and your conversations generated plenty of ideas.
Some of these were topics that our Committee has covered in
past hearings, or that have existing legislative proposals in
Congress to address them. For example, the Commission noted
that many areas with high fire risk are characterized by small-
diameter, low-value trees. Expanding the universe of wood
products made from small-diameter timber could radically expand
the areas where thinning treatments are both necessary and
profitable. A bill that I introduced with Ranking Member
Barrasso last year, the ``America's Revegetation and Carbon
Sequestration Act,'' would do just that.
The Commission also noted the need to fix a problem related
to firefighter retirement benefits that our Committee has
discussed before. Currently, if a firefighter takes a break of
more than three days during a 20-year career, that firefighter
gives up their special retirement benefits. Ranking Member
Barrasso and I have worked on another bill together, the
``Promoting Effective Forest Management Act,'' which would fix
this problem also. Bipartisan, commonsense solutions to these
problems exist, and I look forward to hearing ideas from my
colleagues on how we can address the recommendations from the
Commission this morning.
Since the Forest Service and the Department of the Interior
served as co-chairs of the panel, I am also interested to hear
what administrative changes the agencies are considering as a
result of these reports. The report drove home the need to
return low-intensity fires in many areas, and I know the
agencies conducted a record-high number of prescribed burns
last year. What is less clear is whether those burns were in
areas with the highest wildfire risk. The Commission encouraged
agencies to adopt region-specific prescribed fire targets to
better track actual hazardous fuels reduction. Tucked in at the
end of the wildfire report is a recommendation to overhaul the
way that agencies report their treatment metrics and hopefully
stop double- or triple-counting acres. Since these
recommendations were unanimously adopted, I hope this means
that the agencies finally accept that they need to provide more
transparency on how appropriated dollars translate into on-the-
ground work.
So let me just thank our witnesses for being here today, as
well as the Commission's coordinators, for their work to make
this happen. I look forward to hearing your perspectives on
these issues.
And with that, I will turn to Ranking Member Barrasso for
his opening remarks.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. JOHN BARRASSO,
U.S. SENATOR FROM WYOMING
Senator Barrasso. Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you
for holding this important hearing. Thank you to all of the
witnesses.
As you said, Mr. Chairman, wildfires are devastating
communities across America, and especially in the West. Wyoming
is no exception. Just 12 days ago, the Happy Jack Fire
threatened homes and infrastructure in and around our state
capital of Cheyenne. And as you point out, Mr. Chairman, that
fire was in February. This is very early for fire season. This
fire serves as a sobering reminder that we are in a wildfire
crisis, and the crisis isn't going to solve itself. Our federal
forests are in dire need of effective management. In recent
years, Wyoming and other western states have endured wildfires
of unprecedented size and destructiveness. These wildfires are
wreaking havoc on our forests and on our communities. So until
we start to manage our forests properly, the crisis is going to
continue to escalate.
The Forest Service estimates that 278 million acres are at
high or very high risk of wildfire. Mr. Chairman, this is an
area more than 17 times the size of your home State of West
Virginia. On average, more than six million acres burn each
year. Federal costs to suppress these fires have exploded to
well over $2.5 billion each year. Fire seasons are now longer,
they are more destructive, and they are more expensive. As
summer approaches, rural communities are again bracing for what
will likely be another devastating wildfire season.
This Committee has had this discussion before, and every
year it becomes more clear that we are on an unsustainable
path. We can't just keep throwing more money and resources at
the problem. We need to get back to the basics. We need to
start managing the forests in a serious and credible way. We
need to increase the pace and the scale of our wildfire
mitigation activities, and that includes timber harvesting and
hazardous fuel reduction. For years, officials for the Forest
Service and the Department of the Interior have testified that
a paradigm shift is needed. In response, Congress has given
both agencies billions of dollars in additional taxpayer
funding. We still have not seen the agencies do sufficient work
on the ground, which is what is needed to do to address the
crisis.
So today we are reviewing another Congressionally mandated
report on how to address wildfires. The report is about 350
pages long. It includes 148 recommendations. And while all of
us here recognize the urgency of the problem, acting on nearly
150 recommendations is impractical and it's not entirely
helpful. To effectively address the wildfire crisis, we need to
strengthen what is working well. That means eliminating red
tape to expedite critical fire mitigation projects. The Forest
Service and the Department of the Interior must make these
efforts a priority, but they shouldn't try to do it alone. From
recruiting and training firefighters, to mitigation planning
and project work, federal agencies truly need help. Federal
agencies need to allow local communities, state agencies, and
Indian tribes to help get this vital work done. We all need to
work together. The Commission report shows that we should focus
our time and resources on cross-boundary, locally led efforts
to address wildfire risk.
Now, I remain troubled that the Commission excluded
representatives from my home State of Wyoming. Wyoming is a
national leader in increasing the pace and the scale of good
forest management, while at the same time, increasing wildfire
preparedness. This is exactly what the rest of the nation needs
to do. The Biden Administration is not just failing to
effectively manage our nation's forests, they are actually
pursuing what I believe are misguided nationwide mandates to
prevent good management in old-growth forests. Instead of
restricting responsible forest management, this Administration
should focus on how to get more management done across fire-
prone lands. The Biden Administration shouldn't delay or make
it more difficult to do this crucial work.
I would like to welcome Kelly Norris, and I will introduce
her in a little bit, Mr. Chairman, who is Wyoming's State
Forester, as well as all the witnesses today. Thanks so much
for being here.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I look forward to the testimony.
The Chairman. Thank you, Senator.
And now we are going to go to Senator Cantwell for an
introduction, and I am going to come back to Senator Barrasso
for his introduction, and I will do the other three.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. MARIA CANTWELL,
U.S. SENATOR FROM WASHINGTON
Senator Cantwell. Thank you, Chairman Manchin, and thank
you, Ranking Member Barrasso, for holding this important
hearing, and I want to thank the witnesses for participating.
I want to introduce the Executive Director of the
Confederated Tribes of Colville Reservation, Cody Desautel.
Thank you for being here, Mr. Desautel. You are an expert in
this particular area, and have two decades of expertise in
forestry, wildfire preparedness, and mitigation. The Colville
has faced some of the most brutal fires that we have had in the
Northwest, losing, I heard on one account, almost $2 billion of
timberland in one fire, but it has clearly been impacted in a
major way. And you have, because of this, tried your own
management practices with fire breaks and various issues. So I
hope to hear about that today.
You are the Executive Director of the Confederated Tribes
of Colville, but serve as the President of the Intertribal
Timber Council, and before this, served in tribal government as
the natural resources director for eight years. Throughout his
career he has been an exceptional advocate to protect tribal
natural resources and tribal cultures and economies. I think
your tribe gets about 20 percent of your revenue from this
timberland, so it's a very important issue for you
economically. The Confederated Tribes are on the front lines of
the crisis, as I mentioned, located in the northeast corner of
our state, bordering the Okanogan-Wenatchee National Forest.
Fire does not know jurisdictional boundaries, that is the
issue. And so, when it comes to working across jurisdictions, I
think Mr. Desautel is going to tell us what that experience has
been as part of the Wildland Fire Management and Mitigation
Commission.
And so, I look forward to hearing about those tools that
you have deployed that you think have made you, in those latter
years since the big fire--not that there have not been many big
fires, but since the big one in 2015--what you have
successfully done that we could all learn from today.
So thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Thank you, Senator.
And now we have Senator Barrasso for his introduction.
Senator Barrasso. Well, thanks, and thank you also Senator
Cantwell. She and I were working together at a field hearing
that we held a number of years ago in Washington State, taking
a look at the commonalities into the points that you just made.
So it's good to have all of those people here testifying.
And I am delighted to have with us today, Kelly Norris, and
she has testified previously before this Committee. She is
Wyoming's State Forester. She has been in that position for
nearly a year. Before that, she served as our interim state
forester. She is a resident of Cheyenne, Wyoming. She has a
degree in forestry from the University of Wisconsin. She has
worked for the Wyoming State Forestry division for 14 years. We
are very fortunate to have her because she has experience
working as a forester for both the State of Wyoming as well as
the U.S. Forest Service, with years' worth of critical on-the-
ground knowledge, and is a valuable resource to the community
and to this Committee.
I am grateful that you have taken the time and the
responsibility to protect Wyoming's forests. Thank you for
joining us today.
Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Thank you, Senator.
And we have Ms. Meryl Harrell. She is Deputy Under
Secretary for Natural Resources and Environment at the
Department of Agriculture.
We have Ms. Joan Mooney, Principal Deputy Assistant
Secretary for Policy, Management, and Budget at the Department
of the Interior.
And we have Ms. Madelene McDonald. She is a Senior
Watershed Scientist at Denver Water.
And now, we will start with your opening remarks, Ms.
Harrell.
STATEMENT OF MERYL HARRELL, DEPUTY UNDER SECRETARY, NATURAL
RESOURCES AND THE ENVIRONMENT, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE
Ms. Harrell. Thank you.
Chairman Manchin, Ranking Member Barrasso, and members of
the Committee, thank you for the opportunity to testify about
the important work of the Wildland Fire Mitigation and
Management Commission. I would like to start by thanking
Congress for establishing this Commission. I served as one of
the co-chair designees on behalf of Secretary Vilsack. It has
been an honor to serve alongside my fellow Commission members,
each of whom brought unique knowledge, skills, perspective, and
experience to this effort. And I want to recognize the many
Commission members, coordinators, staff, and subject matter
experts who are here in this room today.
For decades, the wildland fire crisis has been growing.
Larger, more severe wildfires are devastating communities and
ecosystems and threatening lives and livelihoods across the
country. Public health impacts are increasing, along with harm
from cascading disasters like floods and landslides. This is a
challenge that crosses the natural and the built environment,
from rural and urban communities to the lands that surround
them. At the same time, fire is also a critical part of the
solution to this challenge. Returning fire to the land,
including through prescribed fire and cultural burning, is
necessary to restore fire-adapted ecosystems and reduce risk to
communities.
Recognizing the urgency of this crisis, Congress, in the
Bipartisan Infrastructure Law, directed the creation of the
Commission and charged it with developing a comprehensive set
of recommendations within one year. The Commission's work was
informed by ongoing strategies, including the Forest Service's
wildfire risk strategy and by the work of leadership bodies
like the Wildland Fire Leadership Council. Commission members
considered every phase of the wildfire challenge, from pre-fire
mitigation to response and post-fire recovery. The Commission
also considered key enabling conditions, including the need for
a comprehensive workforce; science, data, and technology; and
the relationships and resources necessary to meet this societal
challenge. Recognizing that Congress often hears divergent
views, it was important for the 50 Commission members to come
to consensus before moving any recommendations forward. The
recommendations in the Commission's aerial equipment strategy
report and the 148 recommendations in the Commission's final
report reflect the consensus views of the Commission and
received unanimous support.
Addressing this complex problem requires an integrated set
of solutions. The Commission highlighted the central importance
of our workforce in its recommendations, including the need to
invest in a comprehensive workforce, paying wildland
firefighters what they deserve, and ensuring they have the
benefits they need, including for housing, mental and physical
health, work/life balance, and retirement. We appreciate your
action, just in the last week, to pass a budget that will
extend supplemental pay increases for our wildland firefighters
through the end of this fiscal year, and we stand ready to work
with you to make these pay increases permanent, as called for
in the President's FY25 budget, and invest in the well-being of
our entire fire workforce, as recommended by the Commission.
The Commission's recommendations address systems, tools,
and authorities needed to operate at scale. We focused on the
role of partnerships, recognizing we need an ``all hands, all
lands'' approach, and that fires don't follow jurisdictional
boundaries. Importantly, the Commission recognized the long
history of indigenous stewardship related to fire, and
emphasized the importance of indigenous knowledge and
stewardship into the future. Recommendations included
increasing work with states, counties, local communities, and
private landowners; expanding tribal co-stewardship and co-
management; and increasing collaboration with industry,
utilities, non-profit, public health, and other partners. The
Commission focused on community resilience as well, including
investing in pre-fire planning and risk mitigation, increasing
ignition resistance within the built environment, and
increasing support for post-fire recovery. Members recognized
that wildfire risk is not experienced equally, and identified
recommendations to help increase access to programs for
communities that need them the most. And the Commission
recommended sustained, predictable, and long-term investments
at the scale needed for transformational change, building on
the down payment provided through BIL and IRA.
The Commission's recommendations are consistent with the
priorities in the President's FY25 budget, including on topics
such as firefighter pay, housing, and mental health. We are in
action right now on many fronts to advance work in the wildfire
space while laying the groundwork for further Congressional
action on the Commission's recommendations. Together, we can
realize a future in which we have a different experience of
wildfire risk and resilience. The work of the Commission
represents a path to that better future. Thank you for the
opportunity to testify, and I am happy to answer any questions.
[The prepared statement of Ms. Harrell follows:]
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Senator Barrasso [presiding]. Thanks so much for your
testimony.
Ms. Mooney.
STATEMENT OF JOAN MOONEY, PRINCIPAL DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY
FOR POLICY, MANAGEMENT, AND BUDGET, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE
INTERIOR
Ms. Mooney. Chairman Manchin, Ranking Member Barrasso, and
members of the Committee, we appreciate the opportunity to
testify today on the Wildland Fire Mitigation and Management
Commission's report to Congress and the Department of the
Interior's ongoing efforts to address the Commission's
recommendations. Thank you for your leadership in establishing
the Commission with its collaborative approach to addressing
federal wildland fire management policy. I am grateful for my
fellow co-chair designees, Commission members, subject matter
experts, and others who contributed to this report.
The wildfire crisis, as we know, is urgent, severe, and
far-reaching. Climate change is leading to increasingly intense
and destructive wildfires that profoundly impact our natural
landscapes, communities, and public health. Reminders of the
immediate need to address this crisis are all too frequent,
from the recent fires in Texas and Hawaii to the smoky skies
experienced last summer. The Commission produced two consensus-
based reports for Congress: the first, on the nation's aviation
equipment strategy, and the second provided comprehensive
recommendations for our wildfire systems. Interior fully
supports the Commission's recommendations. There is significant
alignment between those recommendations and the President's
2025 budget.
The Aviation Equipment Strategy Report includes 19
recommendations on the nation's aviation needs through 2030.
Interior continues to examine the potential of adapting
contracting terms to address aircraft availability, cost
savings, and industry preferences. We support expanded use of
uncrewed aerial systems, or drones, which provide considerable
strategic and safety benefits to our wildland firefighters. Our
2025 budget request includes increases for additional
procurement and staff. The final report centers on several
interrelated themes that unite the recommendations and
represent a generational shift in wildland fire management.
None of these recommendations can be completed by a single
entity, and need to be addressed collectively by all the
partners.
The first and second themes urge new approaches by shifting
toward more comprehensive systems and structures that are
addressing the interrelationships between communities and
landscapes and facilitating collaborative efforts. These are
the foundation for the actions Interior is taking to advance
the recommendations. The third and fourth themes encourage a
shift from a more reactive to proactive management and
dramatically increasing the use of beneficial fire. Interior is
leveraging BIL funding to increase the pace and scale of fuels
management and treatments and rehabilitation of lands damaged
by wildfires. Last year, we increased our hazardous fuel
treatments by approximately 30 percent. In November, Interior
signed a memorandum of understanding with the USDA,
Environmental Protection Agency, and Centers for Disease
Control and Prevention, to protect communities from the impacts
of wildfire smoke, while promoting prescribed fire, a major
step forward toward greater coordination and collaboration
among agencies. Tribes are well-positioned to coordinate and
implement the increased use of beneficial fire. Interior
continues to work with tribal nations to promote co-stewardship
of federal lands and invest in building tribal capacity.
The fifth and perhaps the most important theme highlights
the needs of our workforce. To improve recruitment and
retention, the President's 2025 budget includes funding for new
firefighter hires and requests increases for firefighter pay, a
joint mental health program, and housing. It also includes
legislative proposals that were in last year's budget that
include establishment of a base salary table for wildland
firefighters and a new premium pay category. The sixth theme
stresses the importance of modernizing tools for informed
decision-making across all phases of fire. The Joint Fire
Science Program is supporting efforts to identify and
prioritize science and technology gaps to strategically
accelerate adoption of new technologies. The seventh theme
stresses the urgency of treating the wildfire crisis like the
national emergency that it is. The recommendations emphasize
the need for increased, sustained, and predictable funding that
keeps pace with the escalating crisis and incentivized
investments.
Collectively, these recommendations serve as a strategic
roadmap to guide our efforts in reducing wildfire risk. We
appreciate your continued support in addressing critical
wildland fire mitigation and management issues. Thank you.
[The prepared statement of Ms. Mooney follows:]
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Senator Barrasso. Thank you so much for your testimony.
Mr. Desautel.
STATEMENT OF CODY DESAUTEL, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, CONFEDERATED
TRIBES OF THE COLVILLE RESERVATION
Mr. Desautel. Good morning, Chairman Manchin, Ranking
Member Barrasso, and members of the Committee. I am Cody
Desautel, and I am the Executive Director for the Colville
Tribe in Washington State. I also serve on the Wildland Fire
Mitigation and Management Commission, representing forestry and
industry. I am pleased to have the opportunity to speak with
you today about the Commission.
We have felt the impacts of wildfire acutely at Colville.
Since 2015, the Colville Tribe has seen more than 700,000 acres
of our 1.4-million-acre reservation burn, which includes the
loss of approximately a half a billion dollars' worth of
timber. It would have been worth more a few years ago when you
got the quote. In response to wildfire-related challenges like
these, Congress established the Wildfire Mitigation and
Management Commission, which was charged with undertaking a
comprehensive review of the wildland fire system. The two
Commission reports are cross-cutting, expansive, and take a
holistic approach to addressing the challenges we collectively
face with respect to wildfire through its 167 recommendations.
Today, I will focus my comments on three specific areas of the
Commission's recommendations: wood products, tribal
authorities, and wildfire response, including aviation.
Wood products: The wood processing industry is a critical
tool to help accomplish forest management goals and reduce
wildfire risk. Inconsistent wood supply from federal land,
along with wildfire losses, are threatening the ability to
maintain existing wood processing facilities and hindering the
needed investments to rebuild new infrastructure. The
Commission included a recommendation for long-term federal
investment and commitment to address landscape-level treatment
across all boundaries where the highest risk exists. Congress
must also incentivize the adoption of new technologies and
processing systems to produce value-added and innovative wood
products. The Commission identified a number of existing grant
programs as areas for potential support. The Commission
recognized the need to support these innovations from the
initial pilot phase through commercial application. Congress
should also commission a GAO review of existing programs and
authorities that enable or inhibit cross-boundary work. New or
modified authorities will be needed to achieve our goals.
Tribal authorities: Coordination and consultation with
tribes is an important first step in co-management. Congress
should reinforce federal agency requirements for coordination
with tribes. The Federal Land Policy and Management Act
requires the Secretary of Agriculture to coordinate land use
plans in the National Forest System with those of Indian tribes
by considering site-specific tribal forest management,
indigenous knowledge, and planning approaches. Other
recommendations from the Commission include requiring the
Bureau of Indian Affairs to acknowledge that federally
recognized tribes may develop fire programs under approved
tribal regulations and policies, and Congress should provide
the U.S. Department of Agriculture stand-alone authorities to
enter into co-management agreements with tribes that would
allow the Forest Service to share decision-making authority
with tribes for management of Forest Service programs or
activities.
Finally, many tribes are well-positioned and resourced to
enter into co-management with federal agencies to reduce
wildfire risk. However, additional support is needed for some
tribes to support workforce capacity that enables beneficial
fire practices. By providing federal agencies with the
authority to partner, and providing tribes with additional
resources, Congress can bring new capacity to a system that has
struggled to develop the necessary workforce. Indian tribes
across the country stand ready to bring our indigenous
knowledge and modern expertise to federal forest management.
Wildfire response: A key theme of the recommendations for
the wildfire response is improved collaboration between the
various federal, state, tribal, and local entities that play a
role in wildfire response. With respect to tribes, the
Commission saw a need to recognize them as sovereign--on the
same footing as states. Any policy modifications should make
sure to advance parity and equity for tribes in compacting and
funding processes. The Commission found that the current
wildland fire aviation strategy is based on a seasonal model,
which does not account for longer fire seasons and competing
seasonal geographic needs that did not exist in the past. Use
of new technology, including drones, also needs to be
incorporated in the strategies moving forward.
To help develop a new strategy to meet the aviation needs
through 2030, the Commission recommends Congress establish a
task force composed of a cross representative group of fire
organizations to explore the feasibility of a regionalized
approach to ``standards of cover.'' This would be a
collaborative and inclusive process with all the impacted and
relevant entities. The task force should consider costs and be
open to exploring the trade-offs of different ownership models.
The Commission was also charged with evaluating the use of
Department of Defense surplus. We found that adoption of
military surplus aircraft by agencies or private contractors
carries risks and costs that are often overlooked, and that the
federal model is structured around contractors. Some states and
contractors may choose to use surplus equipment, so it should
be more readily available through a transparent process.
Thank you.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Desautel follows:]
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Senator Barrasso. Thank you very much for your testimony.
Ms. McDonald.
STATEMENT OF MADELENE McDONALD,
SENIOR WATERSHED SCIENTIST, DENVER WATER
Ms. McDonald. Chairman Manchin, Ranking Member Barrasso,
and members of the Committee, I am pleased to be invited to
speak with you today to provide testimony regarding the
Wildland Fire Mitigation and Management Commission, on which I
served. My name is Madelene McDonald, and I am a watershed
scientist at Denver Water, the oldest and largest water
provider in the State of Colorado. On the Commission, I served
in the public utility industry seat. Specifically, I served on
topical workgroups focused on workforce, post-fire recovery,
and public health and infrastructure, the last of which I co-
led.
At Denver Water, I manage the utility's wildfire
preparedness programs. Denver Water has been experiencing
impacts of high-severity fire for over 25 years. The 1996
Buffalo Creek and 2002 Hayman wildfires collectively burned
150,000 acres directly above a Denver Water reservoir.
Untreatable source water originating from these burn scars
highlighted the vulnerability of our drinking water supplies to
high-severity wildfire. Denver Water spent over $27 million
recovering from these two wildfires alone. The Commission
outlines a national strategy that recognizes the need for a
comprehensive approach to wildfire management to address fires
like the Buffalo Creek and Hayman fires. One key component of
the Commission's comprehensive strategy is the need for
proactive mitigation of wildfire risk in both the natural and
built environments. Investing in pre-fire mitigation work is
the only way to begin to break the expensive cycle of severe
wildfire risk, damages, and loss. In the case of the Hayman
Fire, fire suppression cost the Federal Government over $42
million--and that is in 2002 dollars--yet that figure
represented only 19 percent of the total estimated economic
impact.
The Commission believed strongly that to reduce these
overall costs and losses, Congress must invest in programs and
approaches to mitigate risk of fire before it occurs.
Fortunately, we have examples of successful programs of risk
reduction in the natural environment, including the
Collaborative Forest Landscape Restoration Program and the
Joint Chiefs Landscape Restoration Partnership. These programs
should be continued and their authorizations expanded to more
explicitly incentivize source water protection and post-fire
preparedness. Even with our best mitigation efforts, fire will,
and indeed should, still occur. Critically, it is important to
note that in many landscapes, wildfire can contribute to
healthy and functioning ecosystems and reduce the long-term
risk of high-severity fires. It is not the presence of wildfire
itself on the landscape that is the core issue. It is often the
impacts of wildfire when fire burns at uncharacteristically
high severity.
High-severity fire can increase the risk of flooding and
debris flows downstream of the burned area, placing critical
values, like water treatment infrastructure, road networks,
utility infrastructure, and the built environment at risk.
These impacts can extend for months or even years after a fire.
To address these post-fire hazards, Congress should authorize
and fund cross-jurisdictional assessments that consider
downstream values at risk after a fire occurs. Restricting
assessments of post-fire risk by jurisdictional boundaries
limits our ability to mitigate or eliminate downstream costs
and losses. In addition, creating dedicated funding for the
Natural Resources Conservation Service Emergency Watershed
Protection Program is another key Congressional action that
would enable quick, preventative response after a wildfire.
Yet, we do not have to wait until the post-fire period to
begin to lessen its impacts. Planning for post-fire recovery
represents a critical opportunity to reduce loss. The chaotic
and time-critical nature of the post-fire period in the absence
of pre-planning often results in a rush to restore to the
baseline, or pre-fire conditions. The opportunity to use
recovery to build resilience to the next disturbance is then
lost. Congress should direct agencies to review and modify
existing programs that provide financial and technical
assistance for planning to ensure that post-fire preparedness
is an allowable and encouraged activity.
In closing, I encourage members of this Committee and
Congress to act upon the recommendations of the Commission that
this very body established. While the full recommendations of
the Commission extend beyond the scope of this Committee,
members of this Committee have critical roles to play in
advancing work to help us reduce wildfire risk in the natural
environment, harden critical infrastructure, proactively plan
for wildfire recovery, and develop the comprehensive workforce
we need to meet this challenge.
Thank you, Chairman Manchin, Ranking Member Barrasso, and
members of the Committee for this time and for your dedication
to this issue.
[The prepared statement of Ms. McDonald follows:]
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Senator Barrasso. Thanks so very much for your thoughtful
testimony.
Ms. Norris.
STATEMENT OF KELLY NORRIS, STATE FORESTER,
WYOMING STATE FORESTRY DIVISION
Ms. Norris. Thank you, Chairman Manchin, Ranking Member
Barrasso, and members of the Committee for holding this hearing
today and for the opportunity to testify on behalf of the
Wyoming State Forestry Division. My name is Kelly Norris, and I
am the Wyoming State Forester and a member of the National
Association of State Foresters.
The Wildfire Mitigation and Management Commission Report
stands out for its comprehensive assessment of the nation's
wildfire management system. Today, I plan to address the top
five recommendations that would help state agencies drive
significant change at a national level. I am going to begin
with Recommendation No. 47. This is about teamwork and being
accessible to each other in our response. States, which can
include local fire services, have access to substantial
wildfire suppression resources that can be quickly mobilized
through our regional and state-to-state forest fire compacts.
Compacts are set up for quick response to call for help, and
with more efficient mobilization of resources, the overall
federal cost for fire suppression can be significantly reduced.
Modernizing and decreasing the number of compacts could greatly
improve the availability of state resources across the United
States.
Moving on to Recommendation No. 55, this is making sure we
are effectively funding the fire workforce at all levels. The
utilization of the State Fire Assistance and Volunteer Fire
Assistance programs is essential to maintaining and building
wildland mitigation and management capacity. We need to
continue to fund these wildfire risk reduction and protection
programs, as they have proved to be an investment that pays
dividends. Attacking wildfires when they are small is key to
reducing fatalities, loss of homes, and other critical
infrastructure and resources, which also reduces the federal
firefighting cost. Less than two weeks ago, on March 1st, the
Happy Jack Fire started just west of Cheyenne and made a run
directly east over eight miles into the city of Cheyenne, with
hundreds of homes, F.E. Warren Air Force Base, and a
significant and historic arboretum being threatened and
evacuated. Many of the local city, county, and state resources
that provided the immediate response that stopped the wildfire
would not be operational without the use of the State Fire
Assistance and Volunteer Fire Assistance programs. The need to
increase funding for fire suppression on federal lands has
broad support. The need to increase fire suppression on state
and private lands is just as urgent.
There are two additional recommendations I would like to
call attention to, which are Nos. 24 and 25. Wildfire risk
doesn't stop at fence lines and neither should mitigation
funding. Treating landscapes at high risk for wildfire in and
around communities, holistically, regardless of jurisdictional
boundaries, is a better strategy to reduce wildfire risk. The
U.S. Forest Service is looking to partners like Wyoming State
Forestry Division to help the agency reach its Wildfire Crisis
Strategy goals of treating 30 million acres of non National
Forest System Lands. Increasing the flexibility of federal
funds to move across boundaries is a way to get that agency and
its partners to achieve this goal.
State agencies are thankful to Congress for recently
expanding the Good Neighbor Authority to the U.S. Park Service
and the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, as Recommendation No.
26 suggests. The Good Neighbor Authority program is a highly
effective program that should be supported and expanded to
accomplish more work faster. Wyoming has invested significant
resources in the Good Neighbor Authority program because we
know addressing the wildfire crisis requires long-term, active
management on all lands. State Forestry just recently was given
authority through Wyoming's legislature through House bill 43
to double the amount of Good Neighbor Authority positions,
helping to increase the management necessary on our federal
forests. State agencies support making all aspects of the
authority permanent because we need consistency and
predictability to continue to grow our Good Neighbor Authority
programs.
America's federally managed forests face serious threats.
Wyoming and many other states are very concerned at how the
national-level old-growth initiative could contradict the U.S.
Forest Service's Wildfire Crisis Strategy. With wildfire being
the number one cause in the loss of old-growth forests, it is
imperative that the U.S. Forest Service continues to prioritize
the wildfire crisis. Keeping laser-focused on addressing the
wildfire crisis will result in the agency being much farther
along in protecting, maintaining, and recruiting old-growth
forests.
To conclude, wildland fire response and management is one
of the most challenging facets of my job as a state forester.
Implementing the recommendations I highlighted today will
immediately increase the efficiencies and effectiveness in
tackling the wildfire crisis. State agencies need to be a part
of the implementation to these recommendations. And lastly, we
must stay focused on the urgent need to actively manage the
fuels within our forests across all ownerships.
[The prepared statement of Ms. Norris follows:]
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Senator Barrasso. Well, thanks so very much for the
testimony from all of you. Let me start with questions.
Ms. Harrell, if I could--the Biden Administration has
called for a threefold increase in forest management and
restoration projects in order to confront the wildfire crisis.
The Administration is pursuing a top-down, Washington-driven,
old-growth forest management policy. Could you explain how this
restrictive old-growth policy is going to actually help the
Department confront the wildfire crisis?
Ms. Harrell. Yes, Senator, thank you for the question. The
old-growth strategy is complementary to the--wildfire crisis
strategy. In fact, the threat analysis for the old-growth and
mature forests highlights the fact that wildfire is the most
significant risk to the persistence of old-growth forest
conditions across the National Forest System. And one of the
earliest uses of our emergency authority was to protect giant
sequoias from high-severity fire risk. That's why the scoping
notice for the amendment calls for proactive stewardship, which
would include the ability to treat these stands for that risk,
as well as regionally informed and geographically informed
adaptive management strategies to reflect risk on the ground.
Senator Barrasso. Ms. Norris, can I ask you to comment on
what she said? I mean, I understand the sequoias, but in terms
of just the overall policy of the old-growth effort?
Ms. Norris. Thank you, Senator.
As a forester, protecting, maintaining, and recruiting old-
growth is important. And in order to do so, we have to continue
to actively manage our forests. Wildfire is a leading cause of
loss of old growth, and it is a threat to forests of all ages,
across all ownerships, which is why we must stay focused on
continuing to address the wildfire crisis, as it will directly
benefit all of our forests for the long term.
Senator Barrasso. You talked a little bit, Ms. Norris,
about the Good Neighbor Authority and how that has been
successful as a tool for the Wyoming State Forestry Division.
So in the last eight years, since the U.S. Forest Service
launched the program, Wyoming has treated 11,000 acres of
federal land in the state, 6,600 acres of timber harvest,
providing 30 million board-feet for local Wyoming sawmills. How
vital is Good Neighbor Authority in Wyoming, and what makes the
state such an effective partner?
Ms. Norris. Thank you, Senator.
The Good Neighbor Authority program is extremely important
to Wyoming, as 85 percent of our forested lands in Wyoming are
federally owned. A great example of how Good Neighbor Authority
can be such an important tool in our toolbox is, in 2023,
Wyoming--Region 4--all the timber sales that were sold out of
Region 4 in Wyoming were GNA state timber sales. One of the
reasons I think we are so effective in the work that we are
doing through GNA is the fact that our contracting systems and
our administration are flexible and adaptable to help get more
management done on the ground. And I would like to thank you,
Senator Barrasso, for your vision and leadership on this GNA
program.
Senator Barrasso. Okay, let the record reflect--vision and
leadership.
[Laughter.]
Senator Barrasso. Thanks. I appreciate it.
Ms. Harrell, the Commission acknowledged that the Forest
Service and the Department of the Interior need to support the
forest products sector. Currently, we face a dire situation for
the timber industry near the Black Hills National Forest--fewer
sawmills and an escalating threat of catastrophic wildfire. So
what happens to a national forest when you lose a local
sawmill, and then how quickly does the cost per acre for
treatment increase as a result of that?
Ms. Harrell. Thank you for the question, Senator.
The wood products industry is essential to being able to
realize the vision of increasing pace and scale of treatments
as described in the Wildfire Crisis Strategy, and both the
Wildfire Crisis Strategy and the Commission report recognized
that importance. And the Commission included recommendations to
invest in flexibility and facilities and other wood innovations
and other support for the industry.
Senator Barrasso. So you would agree the Forest Service
needs to retain, at the very least, its existing private-sector
partners in the timber industry?
Ms. Harrell. Yes, Senator.
Senator Barrasso. Okay, Ms. Norris, anything you would like
to comment on this?
Ms. Norris. Thank you, Senator.
I have to agree. The timber industry is a very critical
partner in getting more work done on the ground to reduce
wildfire risk, and if we lose a mill in Wyoming, that is going
to mean an economic loss, a loss in treated acres, and
continued challenges of wildfire risk and forest health in
those forests. Wyoming State Forestry has been working closely
with the Bearlodge Ranger District, through our GNA program,
helping to build their capacity and supporting them through the
projects they are working on, on the Wyoming side. In
particular, we are doing, recently, NEPA contracting for
assessments to just move projects faster forward. Thank you.
Senator Barrasso. And final question, Ms. Harrell. In
recent years, Congress has provided the Forest Service and the
Department billions of additional taxpayer dollars for wildfire
mitigation efforts. We have heard this from both sides of the
aisle in previous hearings. Despite all the money, we have yet
to really see a significant increase in the number of acres
treated, which has been a concern about all this. With all
these resources, how is it that the timber outputs remain below
2018 levels?
Ms. Harrell. Senator, we really appreciate the down payment
provided in the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law and IRA. We are
putting those dollars to good use. Last year, the Forest
Service had the most number of acres treated, 4.4 million
acres, in the agency's history, and we will continue to work to
invest those dollars and to be able to treat acres wisely.
Senator Barrasso. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman [presiding]. Thank you, Senator.
And I'm sorry, I had to go to another meeting, but I wanted
to get a few questions in, and we want to keep it continuous.
This is a very, very good discussion.
Scientists have increasingly seen that forest ecosystems
simply do not recover from these severe wildfires without human
intervention. Instead, they convert into shrubland. So
hazardous trees remain on landscapes for far past the point
where they can be harvested for value. I have said this many
times. I was out at Yellowstone when--they had horrendous
fires, and I could not believe that we had not harvested those
trees--they're just going to rot there. Has any consideration
been given to allowing timber contractors to come in after a
devastating fire to harvest the best that we can, so the new
growth will come back in a quicker, better way? And this is to
all witnesses, whoever wants to speak up, please do.
Ms. Kelly.
Ms. Norris. Thank you, Senator.
I can speak on behalf of what we see in Wyoming. When we do
have wildfires, we work pretty quickly--especially, for
example, in the Black Hills, we had a fire that occurred, and
we moved very quickly with our GNA program to turn around and
be able to salvage that timber because it was ponderosa pine.
It has a very short lifetime for us to salvage that----
The Chairman. Does that help for regrowth too?
Ms. Norris. Yes, absolutely.
The Chairman. Anybody else? Yes, sir. Mr. Cody.
Mr. Desautel. Yes. Colville also has a very aggressive
post-fire restoration strategy that includes salvage logging to
the extent that the local newspaper took a picture of a logging
truck hauling smoking logs into the mill at one point a few
years back. So we recognize it as a tool to help put those----
The Chairman. Does the Department of the Interior stop you
from doing it? They always tell me they were not allowed to do
this or they did not get permits to do it--couldn't go into a
freshly burned--let's say within six months to a year after a
forest fire. Is Interior still taking that position?
Mr. Desautel. At Colville, at least, the BIA Superintendent
has signed off on these through expedited NEPA processes. Those
exercises are done ahead of time in our forest management
plans, so we know fire salvage will be a component of our
forest management. And so, we evaluate those impacts ahead of
time.
The Chairman. Ms. Mooney, from the Department's--are you
all stopping them from getting in quicker?
Ms. Mooney. I will have to take that and take a look at
that.
The Chairman. Okay, anybody else? Because I think it's
extremely important. It really is. It's just a waste of a good
resource.
Let me go to another question. Ms. Mooney, can you describe
where the Department of the Interior is in implementing
Congress's directive to provide straightforward regulations for
trimming hazardous trees along transmission lines in rights-of-
way? We know the damage, and things happen--fires happen
because of it. We have outages because of it, because no one
maintains it, or they have a hard time getting permission to
maintain it. So if you could speak to that, I would appreciate
it.
Ms. Mooney. Absolutely. Thank you for that question, Mr.
Chairman. This is a high priority for all of our bureaus, for
the departments, and me. The Commission recommendations
emphasize proactive investments to reduce risks. We look
forward to continuing to work with the utilities and others to
make government more effective and efficient, and this is a
priority for me.
Thank you.
The Chairman. Let me go to, I think, Mr. Cody, I will go to
you. The Commission also examined the ways the Forest Service
and DOI use aircraft for wildfire detection, suppression,
firefighting transport, and even igniting prescribed fires. So
can you discuss the process the Commission took to try to get a
baseline understanding on the uses and effectiveness of fire
aviation?
Mr. Desautel. So it was a struggle, I will admit. There is
a lot of data that is tough to interpret because we have
incident management teams that order more than they need to, or
don't place orders sometimes because they don't think they will
get the order filled. So we tried to look at the existing
infrastructure--how it had been used successfully in wildfire
suppression, and what the needs were for things outside of
suppression, like fuels treatments, and otherwise.
The Chairman. Did the Commission come to an understanding
or a unanimous decision on this?
Mr. Desautel. We--the unanimous decision was that we needed
more data that was reliable and that we would look at a
``standards of cover'' approach to what the air fleet should
look like across all jurisdictions--state, private, and
federal.
The Chairman. One final thing I wanted to ask you all. I
was always concerned, because I talked to someone who is a
large harvester on BLM lands. And they were telling us that,
you know, they will be out working in the forest and they will
see a lightning strike and a fire start, but they were by law
unable to go in there and try to fight that fire before it got
to the point to where, you know, the firefighters and the
government got involved. They could have maybe suppressed it or
contained it better, but they were unable to do that. Has that
changed at all, the process? The only thing--I know in the coal
mining business, every mine had to have a rescue team, because
we knew if we could get into the mine and try to rescue a
miner, we could save their life quicker than waiting for the
rescue team to come in 6 hours or 24 hours later. And I use
that same concept in thinking, boy, if you have every fire or
every timber outfit that bids on contracts for harvesting on
BLM lands, they should be required to have a firefighting unit
trained to go into rapid response. Was that discussed at all?
Mr. Desautel. Yes, it was. There are some liability
challenges with that if you have untrained personnel
responding----
The Chairman. No, you would have to have a certified crew.
The training and continuing training. We are trying to get that
done, because I think it would really cut down on these fires
getting out of hand as quickly as they do.
No? Anybody else have any comment?
Ms. McDonald, do you have anything?
Ms. McDonald. Yes, I have nothing to add for the
certifications, but just a point of emphasis in the
Commission's report is the use of beneficial fire, and so, in
some areas, when that natural ignition occurs, if it is burning
at a lower or moderate intensity under the correct weather
conditions, the Commission does encourage the use of beneficial
fire where possible.
The Chairman. Ms. Norris, have you seen anything in your--
--
Ms. Norris. Thank you, Chairman.
If that fire is occurring on state or private lands, we are
expecting to step up and put it out. We do not have beneficial
fire authorities nor do we agree to that. So with that being
said, I am not sure what that means on federal lands, but
typically, many of those loggers do carry quite a few pieces of
equipment to help in support but are required to call it in.
The Chairman. Thank you. Senator Daines.
Senator Daines. Chairman Manchin, thank you.
For the past decade, the Forest Service and the Department
of the Interior have moved from talking about fire seasons now
to fire years. Wildfires are starting earlier. They are ending
later and are larger. They are hotter, and they are more
devastating than what we have seen in the past. Fuel loads on
our public lands are at all-time highs. Needed on-the-ground
timber harvests and thinning work has been stalled by
litigation, leaving our forests very vulnerable to wildfire.
Drought, insects, and disease have turned these overstocked
forests into tinderboxes that are just waiting to burn. In the
summertime in Montana, when we have these longer fire seasons,
it's quite common when we have visitors that come to our great
state in the summer, I have to show them pictures of the
mountains because you can't see them because the skies are
filled with smoke.
The Forest Service 10-Year Wildfire Crisis Strategy aims to
treat 50 million acres of federal, state, and private lands,
but this is only a start to the critical management work that
we need done on over 100 million acres of federal lands alone
that are at elevated risk of catastrophic wildfires. This risk
is highlighted by the wildfires currently burning across the
southern part of our country. To date, 1.4 million acres have
burned. The 10-year average in the same timeframe is just over
185,000 acres burned. So we are already seeing nearly ten times
the average destruction. The devastating Smokehouse Creek Fire
in Texas is the largest in the state's history and is over a
million acres. High winds fueled its growth, and at peak
spread, it was consuming two football fields of ground a
second.
Deputy Under Secretary Harrell, in the Commission's
aviation report, two recommendations focus on firefighting
aircraft contracts that are no longer fulfilling baseline
operational demands to cover the extended nature of fire
seasons. How many air tankers were on contract the day the
Smokehouse Creek Fire broke out in Texas?
Ms. Harrell. Thank you, Senator.
What I can tell you is that we were able to deploy aircraft
to help----
Senator Daines. How many were on contract the day that
broke out?
Ms. Harrell. I will have to follow up and get you that
specific number, Senator.
Senator Daines. Do you know what it is?
Ms. Harrell. I don't
Senator Daines. How long after the fire was detected did
retardant or water drops start on the fire?
Ms. Harrell. Again, I don't know the specific time. I do
know that we were able to deploy over 200 fire personnel to
help the response.
Senator Daines. Yeah, there is an old saying in
firefighting: It's a lot easier to put them out when they are
small and the rapid response.
A finding in the aviation report indicated that aircraft
contracts favor short-term expediency over long-term value,
which is concerning when you look back to the Blue Ribbon Panel
on federal aerial firefighting that was established following
several fatal airtanker crashes in 2002. What is the agency
doing to prioritize best value in their contracting?
Ms. Harrell. Thank you, Senator.
The agency is working to join forces as best as possible.
The Commission did highlight the need to be able to look at
contracts in the light of the fact that we have fire years and
made recommendations for a task force on that topic.
Senator Daines. Deputy Secretary Harrell, many of the
recommendations in the final ``On Fire'' Commission report
center around increasing active management and encouraging
collaborative approaches to forestry. In Montana, these forest
projects are essential. They are essential to forest health,
and these are being halted by litigation. You know, a healthy
forest is a carbon sink. A burning forest is a carbon emitter.
If Congress does not fix the Ninth Circuit Cottonwood decision
on forest plans that have zero on-the-ground impact on species,
how will this impact active forest management work to mitigate
wildfire risk?
Ms. Harrell. Senator, we agree. We absolutely want to be
able to implement land management plans in a timely way, and we
have been working with our sister agencies on a path forward
that addresses Cottonwood and protects wildlife, and we'd be
happy to follow up with your staff.
Senator Daines. Do you think we should resolve and get this
Cottonwood fix passed by Congress and signed by the President?
Ms. Harrell. I think there is a path forward that----
Senator Daines. Do you think we should do it? I mean, you
are on the front lines of all this.
Ms. Harrell. We would be happy to follow up with your staff
on the recommendations.
Senator Daines. So what do you think? You are a
professional, and you see it. Should we pass it or not?
Ms. Harrell. We do not have an administrative position on
that legislation, but we have been working closely with our
sister agencies on a path forward, and we'd be happy to follow
up.
Senator Daines. Well, the good news is, this Committee now
has passed it. So we have seen bipartisan support here as one
of the fixes we need here to more effectively manage our
forests.
Thank you.
The Chairman. Senator Cortez Masto.
Senator Cortez Masto. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Let me say, this hasn't always been the case, but I have
seen more collaboration amongst the agencies when it comes to
wildfire, and this Commission is a great start. Thank you. I
have to also point out to the Chairman--he may not know this--
just last year, we opened our first sawmill in Carson City. It
is a collaboration with the Forest Service--thank you so much--
and Tahoe Forest Products and Washoe Tribe of Nevada. And it's
going to have a major impact on wildfire management in that
area between California and Nevada, if you know where Tahoe is,
which is key for us. And literally because of the Caldor Fire,
which we all know was horrific in that area, this sawmill is
now taking the wood from that fire and creating a local market
for green and burned logs as well. So it's going to be key to
our fire management in that area. That sawmill is the first
that has opened in centuries in this area. So I thank you for
that collaboration. It's key for Nevada and California.
Let me jump to a housing issue, which we have touched on
but really haven't focused on. I know the appropriations
package that we passed last week extended the firefighter
salary. Thank you very much. I think it needs to be permanent,
and we should be working on that. But here is what I know. I
was just with our firefighters, both in Reno, looking at urban
interface wildfires, as well as in our forests, in Lamoille
Canyon. And one of the things I heard from our incredibly
courageous firefighters is the challenge to retain them because
of a lack of salary, a lack of benefits, and housing. Housing
is also an issue for so many of our firefighters, and I would
hate to say that we are losing them to this noble profession
because we don't have housing for them.
So, I guess my question for Under Secretary Harrell is,
what are the solutions? What should we be focusing on to
address the housing needs as well for our firefighters?
Ms. Harrell. Thank you for raising this issue, Senator.
It's incredibly important for our workforce. We know the
impacts the lack of available and affordable housing have for
our ability to retain, recruit, and have the comprehensive
workforce we need, and it's a strain on our employees. The
Commission made a number of specific recommendations, including
Recommendation No. 102, that would highlight the ability to
provide support for our workforce to help pay for housing, to
be able to invest in housing facilities, to be able to waive
fair market value, to be able to create partnerships with local
community housing partners, and a number of other really
important changes that will help address this challenge for our
employees.
Senator Cortez Masto. I appreciate that. And for my
colleagues, thank you so much. I know we all have housing
issues in our community, but this is one area where we are
talking about housing for firefighters, but it's housing for
our workforce in general, and we have other committees, from
the Senate Finance Committee to the Banking and Housing
Committee that I am getting ready to go to now to talk about
necessary housing. So this really is a comprehensive issue that
impacts so many in our communities, as you can see, touching on
just this very Committee and the issues we are facing. So I am
hopeful we come together as Congress to pass bipartisan housing
legislation that will benefit our firefighters as well.
I thank you, and thank you all for the incredible work. I
know our State Forester was on the Commission as well--Kasey
KC--she is fantastic. She is somebody that I talk with amongst
all of our firefighters to really address these issues. And I
will say, a lot of the work and legislation I have is based on
my conversations with all of our firefighters. And they really
echo what you have in the recommendations. So thank you for
your great work.
One final area I just want to touch on is--and it's the
same issue--how do we address the salary and keeping it
permanent? And let's talk more--it's not just salary, it's
benefits, right? It's hazard pay. It's so many things that we
deal with because now we are having wildfire seasons that are
happening all year long, and they are hotter, and we need that
workforce. What else should we be thinking about in Congress to
support and keep and retain that workforce? And I guess, either
Ms. Harrell or Ms. Mooney, I am going to talk to both of you.
Ms. Harrell. Thank you, Senator, absolutely, we need to be
able to pay our wildland firefighters what they deserve. Those
pay increases need to be permanent, and we appreciate the
action to extend the supplemental pay and look forward to
working together to make those pay increases permanent. And our
employees need the benefits that will ensure their long-term
well-being, including retirement, including housing, including
physical and mental health investments. The Commission made a
number of recommendations along those lines, and they are
incredibly important.
Senator Cortez Masto. Thank you.
Ms. Mooney. We are in full alignment on this for a
permanent fix to the pay situation, and also, housing is huge.
We have to make sure that we attend to all the needs--health
and well-being. USDA and Department of the Interior have a
program going, funded by the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law. Our
workforce, it is ``mission first, people always,'' and that is
the way we think about it. Thank you.
Senator Cortez Masto. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I am going to submit just one
question to our federal partners here from the Tahoe Utility
Partners regarding water needs and for water suppression. Thank
you.
The Chairman. Senator Hawley.
Senator Hawley. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thanks to all the
witnesses for being here.
Ms. Harrell, if I could start with you, I want to come back
to the topic of the old-growth forests and the new national
forest management plan that Senator Barrasso was talking with
you about a little bit ago. As you probably know, hopefully, my
state is home to the Mark Twain National Forest, which
encompasses about a million and a half acres in the State of
Missouri. We are very proud of that. It's an important part of
our state's natural resources. Let me just ask you, what will
this new management plan mean for the Mark Twain National
Forest? How many acres will be banned or restricted from
logging?
Ms. Harrell. Thank you, Senator. So the proposed action had
a scoping notice, and we just received public comments. So we
are examining those public comments. However, I would like to
highlight that the intent of the old-growth strategy is to
enable proactive stewardship in order to be able to ensure that
old-growth conditions can be present on the landscape. And that
very much reflects the fact that wildfire is one of the most
significant risks to those conditions.
Senator Hawley. So will there be any restrictions on
logging in the Mark Twain National Forest as a result of the
plan?
Ms. Harrell. Well, the scoping notice in general calls for
proactive stewardship, which does not prohibit harvest in old-
growth stands. It is intended for ecological restoration
purposes.
Senator Hawley. Okay, I just want to be clear, because
this, as you may imagine, this is subject of considerable
interest to farmers and others in my state. The Missouri Farm
Bureau has written you a letter on this subject, so I just want
to be clear. Your testimony is that there are not going to be
any bans or restrictions on logging, any new ones, in the Mark
Twain National Forest?
Ms. Harrell. The proposed action highlights the need for
proactive stewardship for ecological purposes. So harvest----
Senator Hawley. Yes, I am hearing you say the phrase, but
can we just get down to----
Ms. Harrell. Yes. Yes.
Senator Hawley. I am asking you. I don't know what that
means and neither does any farmer in my state. So will there be
bans or limits on logging in the Mark Twain National Forest as
a result of this plan?
Ms. Harrell. There would not be bans or limits on logging
for ecological purposes.
Senator Hawley. Okay, so would there be any new limits on
logging or timber harvesting in the Mark Twain National Forest
as a result of this new management plan?
Ms. Harrell. I will have to get back to you specifically
about the Mark Twain National Forest, but the policy--and the
policy is still being developed--but what the policy currently
describes is the need for proactive stewardship for ecological
purposes, which includes timber harvest.
Senator Hawley. Well, my understanding is the plan bans
logging in areas of national forest that are classified as old-
growth forests and limits logging in areas that are classified
as mature. The Missouri Farm Bureau, as I mentioned, wrote you
a letter in February, actually, of last year, with concerns
about the proposal. Have you responded to them?
Ms. Harrell. I will have to get back to you on the status
of the response.
Senator Hawley. Well, what they are concerned about is the
decline in timber harvest revenues and what that will do to
public schools in the Mark Twain region that we depend on in
the State of Missouri. They are concerned about the number of
forest acres that will be banned from logging. They are
concerned about the ability to adequately manage the threat of
wildfires in the forest under this rule. So what is your
response to all of those concerns?
Ms. Harrell. My response is that we will still be able to
manage those areas for risks that are present in the forest.
Senator Hawley. So we are not going to see a decline in
revenues for public schools as a result of this plan?
Ms. Harrell. Senator, I will have to get back to you on
this specific response to the question.
Senator Hawley. Okay, I would appreciate it, and I would
appreciate a response to their concerns. As I said, they wrote
you over a year ago. This is very significant concern to my
state. I mean, the Missouri Department of Agriculture estimates
the forest products industry contributes $10 billion to the
economy of Missouri--$10 billion--and supports 46,000 jobs.
That's a lot of jobs in my state. That's a lot of working
people. And a lot of people depend on the public schools in the
Mark Twain region that are funded by timber harvest revenues.
So I want to make sure kids go to school, that our schools stay
open. I want to make sure that we don't lose jobs. I don't want
any jobs lost, particularly not 46,000 jobs. I don't want to
see revenues from my state go down. I don't want to see the
State of Missouri get left behind because of some new plan by
your Administration. Does that make sense?
Ms. Harrell. Yes.
Senator Hawley. Okay, so, you are going to get me
responses. You are going to respond to the Farm Bureau's letter
and copy me and then you are going to get me responses about
the effect on revenues for public schools, the number of acres
that will be banned and restricted from logging, and the
ability to manage wildfire threats. Yes?
Ms. Harrell. Yes.
Senator Hawley. All right. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Thank you, Senator.
And now we have Senator Heinrich.
Senator Heinrich. Ms. Harrell, I am going to try to put
some of what you said about the old-growth strategy in English,
and I want you to respond as to whether I am off base here. The
old-growth strategy isn't about a ban. It's about how we manage
to create the conditions that lead to more old-growth, fire-
resistant stands in our forests. So in the example you gave--
the sequoia example--it was about removing small-diameter trees
and ladder fuels so that those older, more mature, carbon-
sequestering, habitat-producing, fire-resistant trees could
actually be more resilient in the face of fire. Is that why we
are doing this?
Ms. Harrell. Yes, Senator.
Senator Heinrich. Okay, thank you.
Ms. Harrell, I want to talk a little bit about the Hermit's
Peak/Calf Canyon Fire in northern New Mexico. One of the things
my constituents have really struggled to navigate is just the
sort of maze of emergency response and recovery programs when
USDA and DOI and FEMA and all these agencies try to work
together. And I kind of wish FEMA was here today, because they
are such a big part of that, and they are struggling--I will be
very blunt--they are struggling to become a fire response
management agency. They do storms well. They don't do fires
well yet. But how can we better coordinate the federal response
and recovery work for these communities--the landowners and the
businesses--who are impacted by these catastrophic wildfires?
Ms. Harrell. Thank you, Senator.
I first want to recognize the impacts of the Hermit's Peak/
Calf Canyon Fire to communities in your state. It is really
important that we make it easier for communities to navigate
all of the different programs involved with post-fire recovery.
The Wildfire Resilience Interagency Working Group is working
right now to make it easier on the federal side to coordinate
and access those programs, and the Commission similarly made
recommendations to that effect. I know we are working closely
with the state to provide resources, and with FEMA to provide
resources to communities in New Mexico.
Senator Heinrich. We have got a long way to go, but we look
forward to working with you on that. I think we have done a
good job getting the funding in place. We need the funding to
flow to the folks on the ground.
Ms. Mooney, the Commission strongly, and you have
reiterated--super-support for permanent pay increases for
wildland firefighters. We made an incremental step toward that
in the Interior Appropriations bill last week, but that expires
in October. And so, it needs, clearly, to be permanent. I want
you to talk a little bit about how the uncertainty--the non-
permanence of that--impacts your Department's ability to
recruit and retain fire personnel. It seems to be a big
bottleneck.
Ms. Mooney. Yes, there is no question that it impacts our
ability to recruit and retain personnel. Everyone is looking
for certainty, and we need that stable, sustained funding over
time. We share the concerns about this pay cliff. The specter
of it will return in 2025 without Congressional action and only
reinforces the fears that wildland firefighters currently have
about our support and our commitment to their careers that are
needed. So only a permanent fix can take care of that, and we
urge Congress to authorize permanent comprehensive reform.
Thank you.
Senator Heinrich. Yes, we need to send a clear signal to
those firefighters. And I would just urge all of my
colleagues--this is something we need to get done once and for
all.
The Office of Personnel Management--and this is for you
again, Ms. Harrell--published revised classification standards
for a new wildland firefighter occupational series in June
2022. The Forest Service and Department of the Interior were
supposed to have implemented that new series by June 2023,
almost a year ago. DOI has begun posting openings using their
new position descriptions. Why is the Forest Service not there
yet?
Ms. Harrell. Thank you, Senator.
We are continuing to work to implement the series, and we
have a significant firefighter workforce. We really want to
ensure employee and union engagement on implementation so that
we can get it right. So we are currently working to complete
classification of the positions, and our goal is to begin
advertising this year.
Senator Heinrich. Great.
Ms. McDonald, did you mention the Emergency Watershed
Protection Program?
Ms. McDonald. That's correct.
Senator Heinrich. Can you talk a little bit about how we
fund that? Because we kind of fund it on an as-needed basis,
usually an emergency supplemental package. How would you like
to see that funded?
Ms. McDonald. Yes, thank you for the question, Senator.
The Commission recommends sustained and dedicated funding
to the Emergency Watershed Protection Program so that
communities are able to apply for that funding. We also
recommend using--or the ability to use that funding across
boundaries--a cross-jurisdictional, cross-boundary approach
that the Commission recommends.
Senator Heinrich. Yes.
Ms. McDonald. We would like to see that extend into the EWP
program as well. And that dedicated funding will enable
communities to act quickly in the post-fire phase.
Senator Heinrich. I would love to see that as well because,
Chairman, that was a program that the entire New Mexico
delegation had to fight to fund immediately after Hermit's
Peak/Calf Canyon instead of being able to draw from it as
events were taking place.
The Chairman. Thank you, Senator.
Senator Murkowski.
Senator Murkowski. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you all
for being here. And we worked pretty hard, I think, in the
Interior Appropriations Subcommittee. I am the Ranking Member
on that and I think we recognized the situation that we are in
with our wildland fires and firefighting capacity, putting $6.1
billion in wildland firefighting for both DOI and Forest
Service. That is a $480 million increase. I think that
expresses that priority. I agree, we need to be figuring this
out, because we can't have this looming cliff, but I do think
it was important that we were able to avoid that 50 percent,
basically that 50 percent cut in salaries. That's not a very
good incentive. That doesn't give certainty to the folks that
they need, but it was a tough budget year. It's going to be
harder in 2025. I think you know that. But one way that we can
try to knit this all together, using the resources that we are
working on here, I think is to better utilize our industry
partners and their workforce, their skills, their experience,
and leverage that to make our federal interventions on wildland
firefighting more efficient, more economical.
So, a couple of questions for both Ms. Harrell and Ms.
Mooney. You submitted your annual budgets to the Hill
yesterday. I am asking you what is the most important budgetary
item to address wildland fires that was not included in your
budget request. I know what's in your budget request. I don't
want you to reiterate that. I know that there is more. Can you
please share?
And please don't tell me that you are going to get back
with me on it. These are important issues. Nobody is going to
hold it against you if you say we were not able to get this one
on the table. We are trying to figure out what other tools in
our toolbox we need here and help us prioritize.
Go ahead.
Ms. Mooney. Well, I will just start. You know, the
Commission's recommendations came out at the end of September,
following our budget submission.
Senator Murkowski. Right.
Ms. Mooney. And we do have language in there requesting--we
have made some requests related to the Commission's report and
findings, but certainly we have outlined----
Senator Murkowski. Can you give me what your top two
priorities are from that recommendation, again, that were not
anticipated at the time that you had to submit budget
submissions?
Ms. Mooney. This is a comprehensive report. It's going to
be an iterative process. I don't----
Senator Murkowski. You are not helping me prioritize here.
Ms. Mooney [continuing]. Want to choose among those. So I
will----
Senator Murkowski. No, no, no, I get it. But----
Ms. Mooney [continuing]. Give it some thought.
Senator Murkowski. You've got to help me. We are moving
right now on FY25, right as we speak. And so, me and my team
can kind of root through this and figure out what we might
think is most important, but that's why we bring you here, to
give us some direction as to what this Commission and your
agencies believe could be the most effective tool going
forward. We have got your budget request, but as you have
noted, that came out before the recommendations from this
Commission. So in my view, time's-a-wasting, and I don't want
to miss the mark here.
Ms. Harrell, can you give me anything more concrete?
Ms. Harrell. Yes, Senator, thank you.
The FY25 budget request is in alignment with the
Commission's recommendations. The Commission recommended an
interrelated set of recommendations, including significant
investment at the scale needed for being able to work across
all of the areas in the Commission's report. It included some
really important recommendations around workforce investments
and benefits. It also included recommendations around
authorities for being able to deploy funds more effectively
across landscapes to be able to meet needs where they are and
to be able to work with partners, including----
Senator Murkowski. So within that, what role do you feel
that our timber industry partners play? Again, we can dump more
federal money, but you have partners out there as part of the
community that can help you with some of this, whether it's on
the thinning side, you know, dealing with some of the fuel that
is out there. Where does that fit in what you are talking about
here?
Ms. Harrell. That fits squarely in the Commission's work.
Partnerships and being able to collaborate in a
multijurisdictional way were at the heart of the Commission's
recommendations, and there are a number of recommendations to
improve authorities for that.
Senator Murkowski. And do you think that your proposed rule
on the old-growth harvest is going to have any impact on our
industry partners on their availability to remain as these
assets as you are working to reduce wildland fires?
Ms. Harrell. The old-growth strategy, again, is about what
remains on the landscape and how we get there, and our timber
industry partners are going to be very much a necessary part of
how we achieve resilience across the landscape.
Senator Murkowski. Mr. Chairman, I am out of time, but I
would like to follow up both in my capacity here on the
authorizing committee, but also in my capacity as an
appropriator in this space. So thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Thank you, Senator.
And now we have Senator Hirono.
Senator Hirono. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you all for
your testimony, and Ms. Mooney, it's good to see you, as
always.
I am looking at some of the recommendations of the
Commission, and I note your Recommendation No. 1, although I
understand that you are not necessarily prioritizing these
recommendations, but your number one recommendation here is
that Congress should establish a Community Wildfire Risk
Reduction Program. So experiencing the horrendous wildfire on
Maui, and the family of federal agencies, as I describe them,
were present, and that involves a lot of agencies. And, at this
point, over a thousand federal employees have been involved and
engaged in the efforts to remedy the situation. So I am just
wondering why, in this first recommendation, that there aren't
the other agencies that are also involved in what needs to
happen after wildfires? I am thinking of the EPA, DOD, DOT,
SBA. Any particular reason that that those agencies not
included in the first recommendation? Anybody?
Ms. Harrell. Thank you, Senator.
The recommendation for the Community Wildfire Risk
Reduction Program was really important to the Commission. The
agencies that were identified there, I think, were intended
just to be the steering committee, but very much understanding
and appreciating that there will be a larger role for more
agencies than those identified specifically in the
recommendation.
Senator Hirono. So the recommendation is that Congress
should establish such an interagency group. Why can't an
interagency group be established some other way? Does it
require Congressional action?
Ms. Harrell. A number of the elements in that
recommendation would require Congressional action to better
enable investments in the built environment and increase
ignition resistance.
Senator Hirono. I think that it is very clear that after a
wildfire there are a lot of people involved in helping us to
address all of the issues, so I would be very interested to
know what kind of Congressional action, specifically, would be
needed.
One of your other recommendations, and this is for all of
the witnesses--the native seed restoration. Hawaii has lost 70
percent of its native forests within the past century and,
however, we have found in Maui that there are not enough native
seeds available to adequately regenerate the burned landscapes.
So this is something that is a need, not just in Hawaii, but I
would say probably in other states. So what can we do to enable
states to be able to restore their landscape with native seeds?
And in fact, I do have a bill that would establish a National
Interagency Seed and Restoration Center, and I am wondering if
that would be helpful.
Any of you want to respond to the need for native seeds?
Ms. Mooney.
Ms. Mooney. I can start with that. Thank you, Senator.
It is important to use native seeds in restoration efforts.
A lot of the--and as you know, in Maui, we had the invasive
species that helped fuel the fire. So we are working on that as
well, but work expanding the availability of those locally
adapted native seeds and seedlings that accelerate the recovery
of burned areas is in the early phases, but will result in
accelerated fire recovery to federal efforts in Hawaii, Alaska,
the Great Basin, Mohave Deserts, and the recovery of iconic
sequoias. We know it's important, not only to complete these
vegetation management activities, but maintain them. And we put
priority on that and we would be delighted to continue working
with you on technical assistance for your legislation.
Senator Hirono. Thank you.
Ms. Harrell, you have been asked about the firefighting
aircraft that is available. So in your report--the aviation
report--the State of Hawaii and U.S. Pacific territories have a
very limited supply of aircraft with firefighting capabilities.
Do you know how many aircraft the U.S. Forest Service currently
has in Hawaii and the U.S. Pacific territories with
firefighting capabilities, and are you considering increasing
that number?
Ms. Harrell. I will have to get back to you, Senator. We
don't currently have a national forest in Hawaii, but we work
very closely across with a number of partners on deploying
aviation assets, and we will get back to you with a specific
response.
Senator Hirono. Yes, even if there are no national forests
in Hawaii, though, I take it that you have some aircraft with
firefighting capabilities in Hawaii? Or not?
Ms. Harrell. I will have to get back to you, Senator. I
apologize.
Senator Hirono. Okay, thank you.
Since there are no national forests in Hawaii--I am running
out of time--but I wanted to ask each of you, and perhaps you
can respond to me later in writing--you know, what can states
like Hawaii, that do not have a federal presence, what
suggestions do you have for the state, counties, and private
sector to be much more aware of what they can do to reduce and
mitigate wildfires?
So can you respond to that?
Ms. Mooney, you look as though----
Ms. Mooney. Yes, yes, sorry, no.
Senator Hirono [continuing]. You have something to say
right now.
Ms. Mooney. One of benefits of being part of both the
Commission and the Wildland Fire Leadership Council, we worked
together on a cohesive strategy to address the needs across all
levels of government. So we look forward to working with the
State of Hawaii. One of the big, big pluses that the Chairman
had mentioned earlier on is that collaboration and consensus
building was key to this Commission. And so, we look forward to
working with your state to make sure that the state has what it
needs. Thank you.
Senator Hirono. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
It's clear that these kinds of natural disasters are
occurring just about in every state, and that the recovery
efforts take time and a lot of resources. For Hawaii, a billion
dollars has been committed, but we know that is not going to be
enough. Thank you.
The Chairman. Thank you, Senator.
Senator Hoeven.
Senator Hoeven. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Secretary Harrell, as you know, innovative solutions like
the Joint Chiefs program at USDA, a partnership between the
Forest Service and the Natural Resources Conservation Service
(NRCS), helps support forest and grassland restoration projects
across public and private lands. Along with Senator Bennet, I
have worked to enact legislation based off our Joint Chiefs
Landscape Restoration Partnership Act, which authorizes and
provides enhanced resources to the partnership. Do you support
the Commission's recommendation to authorize and fund post-fire
preparedness and recovery efforts under the Joint Chiefs
program?
Ms. Harrell. Yes, Senator. The Joint Chiefs program is
incredibly important.
Senator Hoeven. For the grasslands, which are in my state
and other states throughout the Midwest and West, obviously,
forest fires are a serious issue. Will you commit to work
closely and coordinate with the ranchers who are on those
grasslands and make their living ranching on the grasslands?
Ms. Harrell. Yes, Senator.
Senator Hoeven. For both Secretary Harrell and Secretary
Mooney, obviously one of the things that is creating bigger and
more forest fires is the amount of fuel out in the forests and
in the grasslands and other areas, and there is general
agreement that we have to be proactive in managing that fuel
load. Do you agree that we should be proactive in addressing
forest and grassland health, and what immediate steps are your
respective agencies taking to address that specific challenge--
fuel loads?
Ms. Harrell. I can start. Yes, we agree that we need to be
able to accomplish fuels treatments at increased pace and
scale. That is at the heart of the Forest Service's Wildfire
Crisis Strategy. This last year we were able to treat 4.4
million acres, which is an agency record. The Commission
highlights the importance of being able to build on the
investments from the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law and
Inflation Reduction Act and allow us to be able to do more at
the scale and pace we need.
Ms. Mooney. And at the Department of the Interior, we
believe that more tools help us reduce risk. Reporting acreage,
for us, it is an important quantifier of the workload fuels
reduction work needed, planned, and accomplished. An
improvement in recording metrics would be to augment acre
reporting with more information on outcomes, and that is what
we are focused on here. Interior's treatment goal for this year
is two million acres, which is 30 percent above last year.
Senator Hoeven. For both of you, do you agree that grazing
activities are an effective management tool and contribute to
reducing wildfire risk?
Secretary Harrell.
Ms. Harrell. Yes, Senator, grazing activities can be an
effective fuels management technique, and the Commission
included recommendations on that effect.
Senator Hoeven. Exactly, and you agree with those
recommendations?
Ms. Harrell. Yes.
Senator Hoeven. Thank you.
Secretary Mooney.
Ms. Mooney. I agree as well, and we are fully aligned.
Senator Hoeven. And what steps are each of you taking to
empower grazing in line with the Commission's recommendations?
Ms. Harrell. I think one of the things to highlight is that
the Commission focused on the need to be able to work across
jurisdictional boundaries and work in partnerships with private
landowners, including working landowners.
Senator Hoeven. That goes right to my first two questions.
I am so glad that you emphasized that. Maybe you did it on
purpose, but if you did, it was great.
Ms. Harrell. Thank you, Senator. Yes, it's at the heart of
the recommendations and at the heart of how the Forest Service
is approaching this work. We need to be able to work across
jurisdictional boundaries. We need to be able to work with
states, with tribes, with local communities, and with many
other partners, including working landowners.
Senator Hoeven. That was such a great answer, I should stop
right there because that was--you nailed it, you know, that was
a perfect ten or whatever. But I do have to ask, the last
question for both of you is under the NEPA, you know, when we
reacted, some of the reforms to NEPA in various legislation, we
tried to get at these delays. In some cases, five to seven
years for these environmental reviews, and that's holding up
action that we have just been talking about that you all need
to take. And you know, we tried to get an EIS down to, I think
it was two years, and an EA down to one year. And we have got
to find a way to compress that evaluation cycle so we can get
more affirmative action like we are talking about in terms of,
you know, addressing these challenges with the wildfire.
So what are you doing to get down to that reasonable time
frame for EIS, maybe two years, like we have tried to do in
legislation, and one year on the EA? For each of you.
Ms. Harrell. Thank you, Senator.
One of the things we are doing is investing resources we
received through the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law in standing
up regional planning service groups to be able to help increase
efficiency, and we are also really working to think about how
we can staff interdisciplinary teams and invest in the training
needed to do planning effectively.
Senator Hoeven. Clearly, you can be more effective if you
can get after these challenges quicker, right, Secretary?
Ms. Mooney. At Interior, we are committed to improving our
NEPA efforts and the time frames that it takes us at Interior
to complete these reviews. The Department recognizes the
importance of wildfire risk reduction projects and the need to
start and finish them quickly. We are making sure that we have
the staff and resources in place to more effectively coordinate
this and be even more responsive to local needs and concerns.
Senator Hoeven. I think both the Chairman and the esteemed
Senator from Maine, who are here with me, would agree that
getting at these things quicker will make you more effective.
Of course, they were both--well, all three, Hickenlooper too,
they were all governors, so I----
The Chairman. You are too.
Senator Hoeven. Yeah, you know, I have great respect for
their wisdom. Thank you.
The Chairman. We have got all governors here right now.
Senator King. One former governor is worth six ordinary
senators.
[Laughter.]
The Chairman. Senator Angus King.
Senator King. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
First, I want to talk about the issue of firefighters
because we are in danger of losing our firefighting force, and
imagine your house catches on fire and you call the fire
department and nobody answers the phone. I get thousands of
communications in my office. I got a letter in the last couple
of weeks, and I want to read portions of it, because I think it
really outlines this problem. This is from a wildland
firefighter:
``I have stood in poor people's backyards with the words,
`We don't have insurance,' of the homeowner ringing in my ears
as my crew is in a fist fight with Mother Nature trying to hold
our line. I have worked until every cell in my body screams to
quit. My legs feel like jelly, and I get that thousand-mile
stare into nothing and then work another 14 hours. Exhaustion
does not even describe it. We have, each and every firefighter
across the West, and in the United States as a whole, quickly
accepted two realities. You work this job long enough, and one
of your friends will die or you will have a close call
yourself. Regardless of it all, the American federal
firefighting force is the most capable, most committed, and
toughest in the world. They are ferocious in their commitment,
capable in their execution, accepting the possibility of an
unspeakably painful death from hazards across the board every
time they walk out the door. I know that you know of our pay
and benefits issues, but what I am not sure you know is how
many of us are hanging on by the very tips of our fingers.
There is great remorse spoken between the firefighters on a
hill you have never heard of, of eating cold MREs as they bat
around the idea of how much more they can take. Some speak
quietly to their saw partner about how they are being evicted
and don't have anywhere else to go. Others stare off and say
this will have to be their last season. A majority curse the
politicians in Washington. The latter so much so that in
Montana we were asked to write out a last will and testament,
and we all wrote in, `don't let any politician stand over my
casket and preach false hope of change.' This was written as
gallows humor, but it's a joke that's all too true to us. The
stakes are that as the experienced firefighters are drummed
out, we don't have depth to replace them. I fear that if things
don't change, we will deplete one of the nation's great
resources. Suddenly, there will be an uptick in crew
fatalities, and in hours, and whole cities will be turned into
a moonscape. Many will ask, bewildered, across the nation and
in Congressional hearings, what happened? But we know, and I
think you do too.''
That is what we are talking about here. This isn't just
typical ``let's have a raise.'' This is about maintaining one
of the great assets, as he says, that this country has, and we
are in danger of losing that asset. So we have got to
understand what these folks are up against. Most of us, when we
sign up to do our jobs, we are just going to do the job. These
people, when they put their name on the line, are literally
putting their lives on the line for the rest of the country.
So Ms. Harrell and Ms. Mooney, we have got to address this
and we have got to address it in a thoughtful way. I know we
have got budget difficulties, but the alternative of what we
are putting these people through and what we are subjecting the
public to, if there is nobody there to answer the call, is
unthinkable. So I hope that you'll work with us--the
Administration will work with us--to really find a satisfactory
solution that amply rewards these people in proportion to the
benefit that they are bestowing upon the country.
I want to now turn to a question. In 1986, something like
13 billion board-feet were harvested on federal land. Last
year, it was like $2.6 billion. I believe that in addition to
climate change, one of the things that is contributing to
forest fires is a lack of cutting, is a lack of pre-commercial
thinning, a lack of cleaning out the forests and the forest
floor. Ms. Norris, by the way, one of my best friends in Maine
is Sue Bell, who was the first female state forester in the
country in the 1980s. I want you to know that you are standing
on the shoulders of some pretty great people. But my sense is
that a lack of clearing the forest is contributing to forest
fire risk. Is that true?
Ms. Norris. Thank you, Senator.
Yes, that is true. Our forests are dense, and they are full
of fuel. And because of that, yes, that adds to our wildfire
crisis.
Senator King. And one of the environmental groups, a
national environmental group, educated me that a growing tree
sequesters more carbon than a mature tree. And I would say, I
don't know about other states, but in Maine, there are more
trees, there is more woods in Maine today than there was in
1846 when Henry David Thoreau climbed Mount Katahdin. The
forests have actually expanded, but if we don't cut, we are
actually diminishing the carbon sequestration and we are
increasing the fire damage. Is that true?
Ms. Norris. Yes, and when you do harvest that timber and
put it into tables----
Senator King. It's sequestered.
Ms. Norris. It is.
Senator King. That's right.
Ms. Norris. Unlike when we have a fire and it burns and
gives off carbon.
Senator King. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Thank you, Senator.
And now we have Senator Hickenlooper.
Senator Hickenlooper. Great. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thanks
to all of you for being here. I appreciate the distance and the
time involved in coming to these meetings, but this is
something that is, certainly to this Committee, very close to
our heart.
Just because I am always in favor of the home crowd, let me
talk with Ms. McDonald first. It's always great to have a
Coloradan testifying before the Committee, especially someone
from Denver Water, which I know so well. Denver Water has a
five-person board appointed by the mayor with no approval
process. So the mayor gets to really set a direction for, not
just the city of Denver, but for the state and how we deal with
some of these issues. And we have been facing not just
wildfire, but really megafires, like many of the western
states--you know, Cameron Peak, Pine Gulch, Troublesome. I can
give you a whole list of fires and these are, you could say
these are too-harsh reminders of climate change in the way we
are seeing dramatic changes in precipitation patterns.
So Ms. McDonald, as a watershed scientist, can you just
describe a little bit of what the impact of the megafires is on
water supply, first?
Ms. McDonald. Yes, absolutely, thank you for that question,
Senator.
High-severity impacts water supplies through every phase--
through source water collection, through the treatment of that
water, and then the distribution of the potable water supplies
out to our communities. Typically, the greatest impact to our
water supplies actually happens after the fire occurs. When you
have any rainfall or snowmelt that falls on this fresh burn
scar, you are going to mobilize all that newly loose sediment,
ash, and debris. In the West, that is carried downstream and
typically deposited in a drinking water reservoir, which can
cause a couple of things--it reduces our storage capacity in
those reservoirs. It can clog our conveyance infrastructure and
create operational challenges. But maybe most relevantly, it
creates significant water quality degradation when that water
interacts with the sediment and the ash, which can make it
challenging, or at times, even impossible to treat that water.
Senator Hickenlooper. Right, absolutely.
And then, the other thing is, we know that the Colorado
River's future reservoir operation is certainly top-of-mind for
many Westerners, more and more nationally now. Why should
forest health be up there on an equal level?
Ms. McDonald. Yes, absolutely, the Commission had robust
discussion around this, and one of the findings of the
Commission was, with the increasing demand for water resources
across the nation, protecting our existing supplies that we
have from the threat of wildfire is critical. I think it's even
more so in the Colorado River Basin, like you said. And most of
the discussions, as you mentioned, are really around the demand
side--the quantity side--and we neglect, sometimes, the water
quality side--the supply side--of the Colorado River
discussions. Improving the resiliency of the forest health
gives us a double benefit. The forests can be our first natural
filter of that water supply if they are healthy, functioning
ecosystems, or they can expose that water supply to the
contaminants that lead to water quality concerns if there is a
burn scar in that landscape.
Senator Hickenlooper. Exactly. And we ignore that at some
peril, and it's the diminishing capacity of the reservoir, as
you alluded to earlier, described earlier. It's, you know,
those two go together, and such an obvious cost-benefit for the
investment is--you get so much more benefit.
Mr. Desautel--I forgot the pronunciation--is it close? With
a name like Hickenlooper, I am use to mispronunciation of
people's names. And then Ms. Norris, I will ask you the same
question. And you know, if you go to the whole gamut, from the
removal of hazardous fuel on federal lands to providing the
native seedlings for the post-fire recovery, this is all about
partnerships, right, between the federal agencies, between
states, the tribes. You know, this collaboration is critical
for addressing the issues you are all here discussing. So can
you guys talk a little bit about the unique expertise and
capabilities that tribes and states bring to the table when it
comes to prevention, response, and then, you know, recovery?
Mr. Desautel. So I think when you look at partners, a lot
of times they have strengths that the Federal Government
doesn't have, or we have flexibilities that they don't. So we
serve as a testing ground for approaches that aren't typically
seen on federal land. So if we can really look across
landscapes, across boundaries, to apply what pre-fire treatment
should look like to create resiliency on the landscape, that is
best handled through a very collaborative approach with lots of
perspectives in the room, where there have been successes and
failures that we can learn from as a group, collectively.
Senator Hickenlooper. Right.
Ms. Norris. Thank you, Senator.
I believe states can really bring out an aspect with, when
we are talking specifically about fuels mitigation, cross-
boundary project work. We are that interconnection between
private landowners and states, as well as our federal partners.
We communicate to both the Forest Service and the Bureau of
Land Management, and we bring everybody together in the room
and say this is where we are going to work on the headwaters of
the Colorado together. We are going to even work with our other
state partners and do a collaborative project with Colorado and
Wyoming, or South Dakota and Wyoming. And I think that is--the
key is interagency coordination because it's what is best for
our state.
Senator Hickenlooper. Right. Well said, and all of us
former governors that were up here recognize that the
Governors' Association collaborates at a level that very few
other political denominations work on at that level. So we
really appreciate it.
If the Chair will allow me to ask just one last question
for the two of you and maybe for all of you. How can Congress--
what should we be doing to build upon and make sure we get
maximum benefit from those partnerships?
Mr. Desautel. Well, if I could start, I think the one thing
that we haven't mentioned today is really capacity--that a lot
of our limitations are workforce-related. So we see the huge
investments that were made in the Infrastructure Law and
Inflation Reduction Act, but with that huge addition of funding
didn't come a huge addition of staffing. So we are really
limited on the amount of work that we can do in any given time.
So we really need to focus on how we consistently build that
capacity through time to do this work at scale over decades,
not just the next five years.
Senator Hickenlooper. That's well said.
Ms. Norris. Thank you, Senator.
For me, the number one priority is Recommendation No. 24,
which is providing federal funds across boundaries. If we were
able to utilize those funds in a way to enhance, increase our
pace and scale on projects that would be on other lands outside
of federal lands, we believe we could make a major difference.
Senator Hickenlooper. Awesome. Anybody else? If I can
indulge? Anybody else want to answer that question? Put a price
on what should Congress be doing?
Ms. McDonald. I would just add really briefly, we have a
number of recommendations related to access issues as well.
Communities that can't access the federal funds because of
match requirements, that they can't post the 25 percent match
requirement and funneling money to the collaboratives and
cross-boundary landscapes as well. So the access
recommendations could also be critical to that.
Senator Hickenlooper. More flexibility. Got it.
Anyway, thank you all.
The Chairman. Let me just, again, thank all of the
witnesses for joining us this morning for the discussion. I
think it was very informative, and as you can tell, we have an
awful lot of interest, even though I am from the eastern part
of the country and most of my Democratic colleagues and a lot
of my Republican colleagues are from the western portion, where
it's quite prevalent. The problems they face--and they don't
anticipate--they know it's going to happen. They just don't
know how severe it is going to be. So we are all interested in
trying to change the direction in how we prevent this from
happening and spreading, and there is so much management, and
when some catastrophic event, such as that--there should be
ways to harvest, there should be ways to replenish and try to
prevent it from happening again.
All members will have until the close of business tomorrow
to submit additional questions for the record.
If there's nothing else to come before the Committee, we
stand adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 11:49 a.m., the hearing was adjourned.]
APPENDIX MATERIAL SUBMITTED
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