[Senate Hearing 118-299]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]


                                                        S. Hrg. 118-299

                   OVERSIGHT OF THE GENERAL SERVICES
                     ADMINISTRATION: EXAMINING THE
                     FEDERAL REAL ESTATE PORTFOLIO

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

                              COMMITTEE ON
                      ENVIRONMENT AND PUBLIC WORKS

                          UNITED STATES SENATE

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                             FIRST SESSION
                               __________

                           SEPTEMBER 27, 2023
                               __________

  Printed for the use of the Committee on Environment and Public Works
  
  
                  [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]  


        Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov
                               __________

                    U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
                    
55-737PDF                 WASHINGTON : 2024           


               COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENT AND PUBLIC WORKS

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                             FIRST SESSION

                  THOMAS R. CARPER, Delaware, Chairman
          SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO, West Virginia, Ranking Member

BENJAMIN L. CARDIN, Maryland         KEVIN CRAMER, North Dakota
BERNARD SANDERS, Vermont             CYNTHIA M. LUMMIS, Wyoming
SHELDON WHITEHOUSE, Rhode Island     MARKWAYNE MULLIN, Oklahoma
JEFF MERKLEY, Oregon                 PETE RICKETTS, Nebraska
EDWARD J. MARKEY, Massachusetts      JOHN BOOZMAN, Arkansas
DEBBIE STABENOW, Michigan            ROGER WICKER, Mississippi
MARK KELLY, Arizona                  DAN SULLIVAN, Alaska
ALEX PADILLA, California             LINDSEY O. GRAHAM, South Carolina
JOHN FETTERMAN, Pennsylvania

               Courtney Taylor, Democratic Staff Director
               Adam Tomlinson, Republican Staff Director

                            C O N T E N T S

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                                                                   Page

                           SEPTEMBER 27, 2023
                           OPENING STATEMENTS

Carper, Hon. Thomas R., U.S. Senator from the State of Delaware..     1
Capito, Hon. Shelley Moore, U.S. Senator from the State of West 
  Virginia.......................................................     3

                               WITNESSES

Albert, Nina, Commissioner, Public Buildings Service, U.S. 
  General Services Administration................................     6
    Prepared statement...........................................     8
    Responses to additional questions from:
        Senator Carper...........................................    14
        Senator Markey...........................................    18
    Response to an additional question from:
        Senator Stabenow.........................................    20
        Senator Kelly............................................    23
    Responses to additional questions from:
        Senator Capito...........................................    24
        Senator Ricketts.........................................    26
        Senator Wicker...........................................    32
        Senator Sullivan.........................................    34
    Response to an additional question from Senator Graham.......    37
Marroni, David, Acting Director, Physical Infrastructure, U.S. 
  Government Accountability Office...............................    47
    Prepared statement...........................................    49
    Responses to additional questions from:
        Senator Carper...........................................    77
        Senator Markey...........................................    80
        Senator Ricketts.........................................    83

 
OVERSIGHT OF THE GENERAL SERVICES ADMINISTRATION: EXAMINING THE FEDERAL 
                         REAL ESTATE PORTFOLIO

                              ----------                              


                     WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 27, 2023

                                       U.S. Senate,
                 Committee on Environment and Public Works,
                                                    Washington, DC.
    The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10 a.m. in room 
406, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Thomas R. Carper 
(Chairman of the Committee) presiding.
    Present: Senators Carper, Capito, Cardin, Merkley, Markey, 
Ricketts, and Sullivan.

          OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. THOMAS R. CARPER, 
            U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF DELAWARE

    Senator Carper. Now, I am going to call this hearing to 
order.
    We have disposed of our business. We did some good work on 
three bills. That is pretty good morning's work already.
    I want to start by thanking both of our witnesses, one of 
whom looks very familiar.
    I think I spent some time with you and a bunch of other 
people out at St. Elizabeths yesterday for a tour. It was very 
interesting; thanks for spending that time with us.
    My thanks to Commissioner Nina Albert and David Marroni for 
agreeing to testify before our Committee this morning.
    We are here today to examine the current use of Federal 
office space, affectionately known as the Federal Real Estate 
Footprint, and to identify opportunities for improving how we 
manage these assets on behalf of the American taxpayers.
    The General Services Administration, GSA, manages more than 
363 million square feet spaced across the country in 8,400 
buildings. That is a lot. That is the equivalent of 240 U.S. 
Capitol Buildings. Think about that: The equivalent of 240 U.S. 
Capitol Buildings.
    Unfortunately, a recent GAO report found an alarming amount 
of this space is currently underutilized. According to this 
report from GAO, Federal headquarters buildings, on average, 
have an occupancy rate of only 25 percent.
    Low occupancy is not a new challenge, as some of you know. 
In fact, the management of Federal real property has been a 
challenge for decades. In 2023, the GAO placed the management 
of Federal buildings on their High Risk List, due in large part 
to underutilized space.
    Tom Coburn and I were partners together on the Homeland 
Security Committee. We worked a lot with the GAO on their High 
Risk List year after year.
    This to do list, as I like to call it, calls attention to 
Federal agencies and program areas that are high risk due to 
their vulnerabilities to fraud, to waste, to abuse, and 
mismanagement, or are most in need of transformation.
    Our late colleague, Senator Tom Coburn from Oklahoma, was a 
great partner, as I said, in our bipartisan efforts on Homeland 
Security Committee to improve Federal property management 
practices. Every 2 years, at the beginning of a new Congress, 
GAO puts out their High Risk List, and I always think of Tom 
Coburn and renew my energy and interest in making sure that we 
get as much off that list undertaken and completed.
    Now, it is 2023, and the management of Federal buildings 
remains on the High Risk List more than 20 years later. To make 
matters more complicated, the GAO is considering adding the 
maintenance backlog for Federal buildings to that list in 2025.
    It is clear that underutilization remains a problem, 
especially as many Federal employees continue working remotely 
following the COVID-19 pandemic. Now, as President Biden calls 
on more Federal employees to return to the office, GSA must 
work with agencies to identify ways to consolidate, co-locate, 
and dispose of space to meet current and future needs.
    After all, an average Federal building capacity of 25 
percent is, to be a bit blunt about it, I think it is a waste 
of resources. It is not a sustainable or fiscally responsible 
way to manage our Federal real estate.
    We know that GSA faces significant challenges when it comes 
to modernizing and right sizing our Federal buildings, but as I 
often say, in adversity lies opportunity. I will say it again 
this morning. In adversity lies opportunity. More than half of 
GSA managed leases are set to expire by 2027. This is an 
opportunity for the agency to truly right size our Federal 
office space after years of just talking about it.
    We also know that it is possible to save the Federal 
Government and our taxpayers money, a lot of money, while 
tackling climate change at the same time. Last Congress, we 
provided GSA with robust funding through the Bipartisan 
Infrastructure Law and the Inflation Reduction Act to modernize 
and right size buildings in their portfolio. This includes 
making buildings more energy efficient and resilient to climate 
change, as well as promoting the use of low carbon construction 
materials. We look forward to hearing more on the 
implementation of these investments from our witnesses today.
    With that in mind, yesterday I was able to join some of the 
folks in this room, some of the people sitting behind me, to 
again visit the Department of Homeland Security's St. 
Elizabeths campus. This is a project that I have been focused 
on since my time as Chairman of the Homeland Security and 
Governmental Affairs Committee.
    The Department of Homeland Security began efforts to 
consolidate its headquarters in 2005. It has been a long, 
complicated process. Thanks to a $288 million investment from 
the Inflation Reduction Act, GSA has been able to finally 
relocate the headquarters of the U.S. Cybersecurity and 
Infrastructure Security Agency, known as CISA, as well as the 
Immigration and Customs Enforcement, to the St. Elizabeths 
campus, and that is no small feat.
    According to GSA, these consolidation efforts are going to 
reduce the Department's real estate footprint by over 1.2 
million square feet in the capital budget region, the 
equivalent of 21 football fields. That is 21 football fields. 
What is more, it is expected to save taxpayers some $1.3 
billion, billion with a B, over the next 30 years.
    As I said earlier today, today's hearing is an opportunity 
to think strategically about how we move forward together to 
support and encourage GSA's efforts to right size and modernize 
the Federal work force. It is going to take a collaborative 
effort on the part of GSA and each Federal agency to determine 
the amount of office space that the Government needs now and 
into the future, as work force policies continue to evolve.
    With that, we look forward to hearing testimony of what 
efforts GSA is already taking to address the challenges of 
managing the Federal real estate portfolio, as well as what we 
can be doing to be better stewards of the Federal purse and 
taxpayer's money.
    As I often say, everything that I do, I know I can do 
better. The same can be said here. We can do better. We need to 
do better.
    Before we hear from our witnesses, I am happy to turn to 
our Ranking Member, Senator Capito, for her opening remarks.
    Senator Capito, thanks for your strong interest, ongoing 
interest in this topic and for your encouragement for us to 
hold today's hearing. You are recognized.

        OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO, 
          U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF WEST VIRGINIA

    Senator Capito. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thanks, 
welcome to our witnesses. I want to thank you for calling this 
hearing. It is something that I am very interested in.
    Even before the increased telework policies that followed 
COVID-19, there was a need to reduce the Federal real estate 
portfolio. This expansion of remote work has led to a renewed 
focus on modernizing that portfolio as communities across the 
country watch our Federal buildings continue to sit empty.
    This summer, Mr. Marroni, who is one of our witnesses, 
shared preliminary results from GAO's work on the space 
utilization of Federal buildings before a House Committee. As 
we will discuss today, GAO found that, these numbers are 
stunning, in my opinion, that 17 of the 24 Federal agency 
headquarters that they reviewed, this is in the Washington, DC, 
area, used an estimated average of 25 percent or less of their 
respective building's capacity.
    GAO found that GSA was only utilizing an estimated 11 
percent of the space in their headquarters building. I know 
that GSA has taken actions to improve their space utilization, 
but clearly, more work needs to be done. GAO also found that a 
particular Federal agency, if all assigned staff entered the 
building on the same day, would then still only be using 67 
percent of the building's capacity based on usable square feet.
    Each year, it costs billions of taxpayer dollars to operate 
and maintain these Federal buildings, regardless of their 
utilization. Well, this is simply unacceptable.
    I was encouraged to see the Biden administration call on 
Federal agencies to increase the amount of in person work 
following the release of this result. Although, anecdotally, 
however, the Nuclear Regulatory Commission is being jammed by 
its employees' labor union into consideration of policies that 
would actually further reduce time spent in the office, 
literally 2 days every 2 weeks. A day constitutes 4 hours. 
Crazy.
    My concerns with the Federal real estate portfolio remain 
and grow as more time passes and resources continue to be 
wasted to heat, cool, and maintain underutilized buildings. The 
Committee has done a lot of legislative work to support 
policies that will reduce emissions.
    I would be interested to know the emissions associated with 
heating and cooling these buildings that are unoccupied. It is 
clear that Federal agencies have too much space, and 
significant changes need to be made to our Federal real estate 
portfolio to prevent unnecessary costs.
    Approximately half of all active leases in the Public 
Building Service's leased inventory are expiring in the next 5 
years. This provides us a unique opportunity to course correct 
and right size the portfolio. GSA will play a very important 
role in this modernization effort, and other agencies will play 
an equally important role.
    In order for GSA to make appropriate investments in 
existing buildings and evaluate lease options, Federal agencies 
must identify their current and future space needs. Providing 
these agencies with better benchmarks regarding space and an 
understanding of what full utilization is would help with these 
efforts.
    The process for disposing of or consolidating Federal 
buildings can be lengthy. Congress passed legislation to try to 
address this issue. Unfortunately, this legislation has yet to 
produce the intended results.
    The Committee is willing and really eager to work 
collaboratively with GSA and other Federal agencies to ensure 
that they have modern workspaces they need to carry out their 
missions, while generating significant savings for our 
taxpayers.
    However, this needs to be a partnership, and greater 
communication between all parties is critical to achieving 
success in this matter. I appreciate the monthly calls that are 
occurring now between GSA staff and staff on the committees of 
jurisdiction. I feel this is a step in the right direction.
    However, I do believe that GSA needs to be more forthright 
and responsive to this Committee. I understand there has been, 
at times, a lack of transparency from GSA on routine oversight 
questions.
    Last Congress, and the Chairman mentioned this, the 
Inflation Reduction Act, which I did not support, provided GSA 
with $3.4 billion. As GSA requests more funding, it is 
important to understand how the agency is using these existing 
resources.
    I was disappointed to hear that GSA did not provide my 
staff with an update on their efforts to develop low embodied 
carbon material standards when it was requested. Despite the 
known interest from this Committee, GSA released their interim 
requirements several weeks later with very little advance 
notice to my staff, even though we had expressed interest in 
this.
    GSA's lack of transparency and responsiveness underscores 
the ongoing need for improved communication. I understand that 
GSA has put forward legislative changes to the agency's 
authority that may help modernize the Federal real estate 
portfolio as part of their fiscal year 2024 budget request.
    If GSA would like this Committee to give full consideration 
to their legislative proposals, including one that provides 
them with more authority, they need to be more responsive to 
this Committee.
    I look forward to a productive discussion on how we can 
work together to modernize the Federal real estate portfolio.
    Thank you both for being here.
    Senator Carper. Senator Capito, thanks, not just for those 
words, but also thank you for your focus on these issues and 
trying to make sure we use some common sense and save some 
money.
    To our witnesses, you don't see a lot of members sitting 
out here. We are looking at the end of the fiscal year in just 
a couple of days, and there is a threat of a Government 
shutdown. A bunch of committees that are having hearings today 
are trying to make sure that we don't have a shutdown, but also 
trying to make sure that whatever we can get done, and should 
that actually happen, that we are ready for it.
    I am being called to come and vote in one of my other 
committees, the Homeland Security Committee, that I used to 
chair. They need me there now to have a quorum, I think. I will 
be back shortly. Senator Capito is going to preside in the 
meantime.
    Let me just say, today we are going to hear from Hon. Nina 
Albert, Commissioner of Public Buildings Service at GSA. In her 
role as Commissioner, Ms. Albert oversees the management of 
more than 363 million square feet of space and 8,397 buildings, 
almost 8,400 buildings, nationwide.
    Commissioner Albert, we thank you for joining us today. 
Thanks for your service. How long did you serve the people of 
this country?
    Ms. Albert. Well, I was in the military.
    Senator Carper. Yes, what did you do in the military?
    Ms. Albert. I was a Signal Corps officer.
    Senator Carper. In the?
    Ms. Albert. In the 141 signal battalion in Germany.
    Senator Carper. In Germany. Army?
    Ms. Albert. I was Army, yes.
    Senator Carper. Navy salutes Army.
    Ms. Albert. Thank you. I am going to record that.
    [Laughter.]
    Senator Carper. There you go. Different uniform, same team, 
I like to say.
    Ms. Albert. Exactly.
    Senator Carper. We thank you for joining us. Thank you for 
all your service. You are recognized for 5 minutes, and then 
the baton will be passed to your sidekick there, OK?
    Thank you, Senator Capito.
    Thank you very much. I will be back.

   STATEMENT OF NINA ALBERT, COMMISSIONER, PUBLIC BUILDINGS 
         SERVICE, U.S. GENERAL SERVICES ADMINISTRATION

    Ms. Albert. Thank you so much.
    Good morning, Chairman Carper, Ranking Member Capito, and 
distinguished members of the Committee. My name is Nina Albert, 
and I am the Commissioner of the Public Buildings Service at 
the General Services Administration.
    I appreciate the Committee's invitation to discuss this 
opportunity on how to achieve long term cost savings by 
optimizing the Federal real estate footprint to best align 
building utilization with mission delivery. I am glad to be 
here today and share how GSA is helping Federal agencies 
address their space needs and how right sizing the Federal 
footprint can be accelerated if GSA gains full access to annual 
collections that are deposited into the Federal Buildings Fund.
    Many agencies realize that they can adapt their workplaces 
to more effectively and cost efficiently carry out their 
missions. Post-pandemic, agencies are gaining additional 
insights about the needs of their work force, different and 
better approaches to achieving their mission, as well as 
approaches to the workplace.
    GSA is leveraging its experience and expertise to help 
agencies deliver a better workplace experience for their 
employees, as well as right size their space to best deliver 
agency missions. Congressional support for GSA's fiscal year 
2024 budget request, including legislative reforms and the 
agency's $2.3 billion request for capital program investments, 
is critical to help address these concerns.
    Since 2011, the practice of diverting roughly $1 billion 
annually from the Federal Buildings Fund to other agencies has 
increased costs to GSA and inhibited sound portfolio management 
practices. Delays in funding necessary repairs exacerbate the 
deterioration of building conditions.
    We have seen minor issues grow into more costly repairs and 
replacements. It is also delaying consolidation plans, forcing 
the Government to carry space that is underutilized while we 
wait for funding to complete work, allowing for tenant 
relocations.
    My written testimony goes into greater detail on this, but 
one example I want to share with you today is that since 2014, 
GSA estimates that as many as 120 consolidation opportunities 
representing hundreds of millions in annual savings have been 
missed due to lack of available funding.
    All of these things increase cost to the Federal 
Government, especially when we are forced to make emergency 
repairs or delay space consolidations. In the most extreme 
cases, these delays have led to costly temporary relocations 
until the repairs were able to be completed.
    In addition to our funding request for projects in fiscal 
year 2024, this year's budget request also includes a number of 
legislative proposals. The first is a proposal to facilitate 
GSA's full access to the annual revenues and collections that 
are deposited into the Federal Buildings Fund, while preserving 
Congress's role in choosing which projects to authorize and 
fund.
    GSA is also proposing an increase to its prospectus 
threshold from the current $3.4 million to $10 million, which 
we conservatively estimate will yield more than $50 million in 
annual cost avoidance.
    Finally, our budget request includes a third legislative 
proposal to facilitate our ability to assist other agencies in 
identifying and preparing real property for disposition. This 
will allow GSA to help agencies right size their portfolios by 
providing the resources necessary to assess, prepare, and 
accelerate the disposition of underutilized properties.
    These three proposals work to reduce timelines for project 
delivery, invest in federally owned properties, to improve 
building utilization and performance, and reduce timelines for 
disposition. The results will be a reduction on the reliance on 
privately owned or leased space, ultimately helping GSA to 
deliver the best value in real estate to our partners across 
Government and to taxpayers. The opportunity before us is to 
transform the Federal real estate portfolio into a high 
performing and more efficient portfolio than today's inventory.
    I like to say that we want better buildings, but fewer 
buildings. With approximately half of our value in the lease 
portfolio expiring over the next 5 years, it is now the 
opportunity to have these conversations and provide solutions, 
but we can only maximize those opportunities if we are able to 
make the necessary investments in our own portfolio.
    I would like to thank this Committee again for its 
willingness to address these issues and for being a critical 
partner as we work to modernize and right size Federal 
facilities. Thank you for the opportunity to testify before you 
today, and I look forward to answering any questions the 
Committee may have.
    Thank you.
    [The prepared statement of Ms. Albert follows:]

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    Senator Capito [presiding]. Thank you, Commissioner.
    Next, we will hear from David Marroni, the Acting Director 
for Physical Infrastructure team at the Government 
Accountability Office we refer to as the GAO. Mr. Marroni has 
spent nearly 20 years at the GAO, providing oversight on many 
issues, including Federal real property.
    Mr. Marroni, you are recognized for 5 minutes.

     STATEMENT OF DAVID MARRONI, ACTING DIRECTOR, PHYSICAL 
     INFRASTRUCTURE, U.S. GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABILITY OFFICE

    Mr. Marroni. Thank you, Chairman Carper, Ranking Member 
Capito, and members of the Committee. I am pleased to be here 
today to discuss the preliminary results of GAO's work on the 
utilization of Federal buildings and its implications for 
optimizing the Federal real property footprint.
    In the aftermath of the COVID-19 pandemic, the Federal 
Government has a unique opportunity to reconsider how much 
office space it really needs to best achieve agency missions 
while saving taxpayer dollars. To get a sense of the magnitude 
of that opportunity, we assessed the extent to which 24 
agencies utilized their headquarters buildings in January, 
February, and March of this year. What we found was that all 24 
of those agencies had extra space, and that most agencies were 
using less than 25 percent of their headquarters capacity.
    While these figures are estimates, they point to a 
potentially large amount of unneeded office space. We 
identified three main reasons for this low utilization. First, 
many agencies had more space than they needed even before the 
pandemic, one of the reasons Federal real property management 
has remained on GAO's High Risk List now for 20 years.
    Second, many headquarters buildings aren't configured in 
the best way. For example, some include storage areas and 
administrative spaces that simply aren't needed in the modern 
workplace.
    Third, agencies have embraced hybrid work. Telework and 
remote work certainly existed before the pandemic, but those 
workplace flexibilities are used much more frequently now. As a 
result, there are simply fewer people coming into headquarters 
buildings than there were before the pandemic.
    So, why does this matter? Because low building utilization 
has significant costs, both to the Government and to the 
taxpayer. For one thing, there are the financial costs. It 
costs billions of dollars each year to operate, maintain, and 
lease these buildings.
    In addition, holding on to unneeded office space has 
environmental costs. Office buildings take a significant amount 
of energy to run, whether people are at their desks or not.
    Finally, holding onto unneeded space has opportunity costs. 
Every dollar an agency spends on extra space is a dollar they 
don't have to spend on other priorities. And for local 
economies, unneeded Federal space could potentially be put to 
more productive uses.
    To be clear, figuring out how much office space agencies 
really need and shedding any they don't won't be easy, quick, 
or cost free. There are many challenges to doing so, including 
having the budget resources necessary to reconfigure space, 
lingering uncertainty about agency and office policies, and a 
lack of good benchmarks for measuring building utilization in a 
high telework environment.
    More generally, while there has been progress in better 
managing Federal property over time, significant issues remain, 
both in the process for disposing of unneeded space and with 
the data available to inform real property decisions.
    That being said, it is important not to lose sight of the 
unique opportunity agencies now have to creatively and 
fundamentally reconsider their office space needs. Agencies 
need to ask themselves, are there ways to reduce our footprint 
and save money while still ending up with more modern space 
that helps us better accomplish our mission?
    As the Federal Government's property manager, GSA plays a 
key role in supporting agencies as they plan and implement 
space solutions to best meet their needs. However, GSA cannot 
right size Federal property on its own. Individual agencies are 
ultimately responsible for determining their own space needs 
and for moving forward with those decisions.
    OMB, too, plays a critical role in setting policies to help 
guide and influence agency real property decisionmaking. Taking 
full advantage of the current moment will require partnership 
and collaboration between these agencies.
    In conclusion, underused Federal buildings have been and 
continue to be a costly challenge, and hybrid work has made 
that challenge even greater. As agencies implement their in 
office policies, they need to take a fundamental look at their 
office space needs and move forward to modernize their real 
estate portfolios accordingly. If they do so, the Federal 
Government will be well positioned to take advantage of the 
unique opportunity before it, optimize the Federal real 
property footprint, and save taxpayer money.
    Mr. Chairman, that concludes my opening statement. I will 
be happy to answer any questions you may have.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Marroni follows:]

[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Senator Capito. Thank you. Thank you both.
    I am going to yield to my good friend, Senator Ricketts, to 
be the first one to question.
    Senator Ricketts. Great, thank you very much for your 
leadership on this issue, Ranking Member Capito, and I also 
appreciate Chairman Carper bringing this up as well. It is far 
past time that we reevaluate the Federal Government's work 
force and infrastructure needs here, and certainly the 
testimony we have heard today says that it is long overdue.
    This issue has been around for a while, but before we get 
into that, I actually want to talk about another issue that is 
of great importance to my home State, which deals with the 
Inspector General releasing a report last week, or a memo, 
alerting the GSA Public Building Service of the contamination 
of legionella bacteria in six GSA controlled buildings across 
the country. Low occupancy levels in these buildings and 
subsequent water stagnation led to the growth of bacteria, the 
primary cause of Legionnaire's disease.
    One of these buildings is located in North Platte, 
Nebraska. It is a building that houses essential services, 
including the Social Security Administration, North Platte VA 
Clinic, the FBI, ICE, and several others.
    Commissioner Albert, OIG notified your office of the need 
to test the water contamination before reopening the buildings 
that experienced lower occupancy during the pandemic in 
September 2022. GSA's Public Building Service currently has no 
requirement for testing potable water systems in their own re-
leased buildings, even after they sat vacant, and the water 
stood, standing through the pandemic. In the week since this 
alert memo has been made, what has the GSA done to protect 
human health in the affected buildings?
    Ms. Albert. Thank you for this question. As soon as we 
learned about legionella bacteria in certain buildings, we 
immediately notified tenants. That is first and foremost just 
because human health is at risk.
    We also contacted and are working very closely with the CDC 
and also ASHRAE, which assists with technical support, trying 
to identify what the appropriate response is and what we as 
buildings managers should be doing.
    The two things that are most critical for managing and 
moving water through and making sure that water quality is good 
is one, flushing of the water systems. So we are now 
systematically doing that throughout all of our buildings.
    In the past, when buildings were occupied more readily, 
that water flushing activity would occur just more frequently, 
and it is, frankly, a result of the pandemic that stagnation 
has occurred. Now, we are flushing throughout our systems to 
make sure that that water is moving.
    The other thing is, we are testing in all of our buildings, 
which is the primary way of identifying if there is any 
bacteria that is forming, and when there is, making sure that 
the chlorine levels and other types of corrective chemical 
treatment to water, to eliminate that bacteria, is dealt with. 
This is something that we are dealing with across our entire 
portfolio.
    We also issued a notice and an alert to landlords of 
private leases where we lease space to make sure that they are 
also aware of what protocols we are putting into place. These 
protocols that we are moving forward with are among the first 
in the Nation. These are things that everybody is learning 
about for the first time, and so I think communication, 
testing, and then corrective action is what we have been able 
to achieve in a very short period of time in response.
    Senator Ricketts. So, have you had any reports of any of 
the employees or visitors becoming sick in any of these 
facilities?
    Ms. Albert. We are aware of one individual who was 
confirmed with legionella infection and is being treated.
    Senator Ricketts. Was that in Nebraska, or is that 
someplace else?
    Ms. Albert. It is not in Nebraska; it is elsewhere.
    Senator Ricketts. OK, thanks.
    You talked about flushing the buildings. Is that the only 
corrective action you are going to need to do, or are there 
going to be other things that you need to do with regard to the 
bacteria?
    Ms. Albert. Testing and flushing. Both of those things are 
what help us identify. Well, the flushing is actually just 
moving things along, and that we can do just as part of common 
practice, but the testing is really the new element that we 
have introduced into this.
    Senator Ricketts. But you don't think you are going to have 
to do anything else as far as remediation, other than just get 
the water moving through?
    Ms. Albert. When it is identified when the tests reveal 
that there might be a presence of legionella, we are closing 
down. Legionella is a bacteria that forms around a fixture or 
around a particular element. It doesn't necessarily spread to 
the whole building if you can isolate that fixture.
    Where we identify, and many of our buildings are quite 
large, that there is a presence, we will try and control it by 
managing in those particular areas where the bacteria is 
forming.
    Senator Ricketts. OK, great. Thank you very much.
    Obviously, this is something that we are going to follow up 
with you with regard to the North Platte office, and just 
making sure we keep in touch with regard to what the cleanup is 
going to be and making sure we are looking out for the health 
and safety of the folks that work there, as well as the 
visitors coming there.
    Ranking Member Capito, or Chairman Carper is back, very 
good, are we going to do a second round of questions?
    Senator Carper [presiding]. I believe so, yes.
    Senator Ricketts. OK, great.
    Senator Carper. Senator Capito, thank you very much for 
presiding. I am happy to be back. We did our work in the 
Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs Committee, and now 
we will conclude our work here today.
    I have a couple of questions. My first question would be, I 
think, for both of you. I would like both of you to take a shot 
at this, if you would.
    I am concerned with July's GAO report on space utilization 
of Federal agency headquarters buildings. It is troubling to me 
that, as I said earlier, GAO found, on average, Federal 
headquarters buildings had an occupancy rate of about 25 
percent.
    Mr. Marroni, Commissioner Albert, I often like to quote 
Albert Einstein, who once said that in adversity lies 
opportunity. In adversity lies opportunity. As I mentioned in 
my statement, more than 50 percent of GSA's managed leases are 
set to expire by 2027, about 50 percent of GSA's managed leases 
are set to expire by 2027.
    How should GSA capitalize on these expiring leases to 
address the low occupancy rates in Federal buildings, please?
    Ms. Albert. I will take the first shot at that, and then I 
will turn it to my colleague here.
    I believe that these expiring leases are a great 
opportunity. What we are learning already is that as an 
expiring lease is coming due, we start working with agencies 
very closely about 2 years in advance of a lease expiration, 
identifying what their future space needs are, where they could 
consolidate to save money, and start planning those moves in 
advance. The conversations are happening right now.
    We are finding that, first of all, we are relying on a 
practice that we have put into place for the past 5 years in 
terms of having that early conversation with tenants that we 
have been in the past been able to save significant amount of 
lease cost as a result of proper planning.
    In the last 5 years, we have saved over $6 billion in lease 
cost avoidance. That is a tremendous track record that we 
absolutely will build on going forward.
    You mentioned the underutilization of buildings in the 
Washington region, for example. What we are finding now is the 
agencies are looking at their building capacity and identifying 
lease expirations in this region, and when appropriate, trying 
to pull those leases into federally owned properties, again, 
when their building is in good enough condition to be able to 
accept it, whereas Mr. Marroni mentioned earlier, if the 
configuration of the building is appropriate for whatever that 
use is.
    I think that the lease expirations are absolutely the right 
trigger. We are seeing agencies make good decisions. They are 
reducing the ones that have occurred in the last 3 years. We 
are seeing reductions in lease requests by anywhere between 25 
to 40 percent. So the good work is being done, but it is a 
process, particularly when we are looking to backfill federally 
owned property, because of the challenges that Mr. Marroni 
highlighted.
    Senator Carper. Thank you.
    Mr. Marroni, same question please.
    Mr. Marroni. Very good.
    It certainly is an opportunity with that number of leases 
expiring and with the underutilization of properties that we 
have highlighted today.
    I concur that agencies are making decisions on both their 
in office attendance policies, which drives some of this, as 
well as what their space needs are. They need to act promptly, 
given the timeframes we are talking about here, and figure out 
how much space they really need in owned buildings and in lease 
facilities and to the extent it makes sense to move from lease 
facilities into owned space. That is a good path forward.
    Again, given that timeframe, it is an opportunity. It is a 
short term opportunity, so it is important to be taking the 
actions that Ms. Albert described.
    Senator Carper. OK.
    Are there any additional ways to address space utilization 
within GSA's existing authorities?
    Ms. Albert. Right now, our authorities allow us to 
evaluate, work with agencies, and try and drive utilization 
through the authorities that we have. The challenges that we 
really have are access to the Federal Buildings Fund. I just 
want to spend 1 minute on why this is so important.
    Senator Carper. I am not surprised. This is a pitch well 
telegraphed. Go ahead.
    Ms. Albert. For example, the Federal Buildings Fund is the 
fund into which it was designed to be a quasi-revolving fund. 
We collect revenue from agencies for rent. That money gets 
reinvested in buildings to maintain them. The fund is also 
where all of the sales proceeds from dispositions are deposited 
and any other collections we have. That money, if it could be 
designed or maintained as a quasi-revolving fund, gets put back 
into supporting agency moves, consolidations, capital 
improvements, so that folks can fully occupy buildings.
    We have had, as I mentioned in my oral testimony, every 
year, about a billion dollar shortfall in getting access to the 
Federal Buildings Fund. We have seen that in the last 12 years 
since that has been the case, our liabilities within our own 
portfolio growing significantly to currently being more than 
$11 billion.
    What does that practically mean for an agency that is in a 
leased space that wants to move into a Federal building? Now, 
the Federal building condition is not as good as what they 
could buy on the lease market, and it is because we haven't 
been able to maintain our buildings the way that we should.
    There is an inherent inefficiency in not getting full 
access to the revenues that we collect that are designed to be 
put back into buildings. That is one of the authorities that we 
are seeking. The other thing is, during this time, an 
opportunity----
    Senator Carper. Just hold it right there, if you would. Are 
there other examples in the Federal Government, like Harbor 
Maintenance Fund, that could be something, maybe it might serve 
as an example? Just take a minute on that.
    Ms. Albert. Sure. The Harbor Maintenance Trust Fund is 
something that was designed almost, very similarly and 
comparably to the Federal Buildings Fund. Those were funds that 
the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers was collecting from the 
private sector, putting it into a fund, and it was designed to 
repair, maintain ports or other waterways.
    Again, they hadn't had full access to that, so they are 
collecting the fees. It is going into a pot, but it is not 
being used for its designed purpose. As a result, I know that 
the Congress and the Army Corps of Engineers worked together 
for almost two decades to get the Harbor Maintenance Trust Fund 
authorities and access restored.
    Senator Carper. Only two decades?
    Ms. Albert. I am hoping that, now that Congress has 
understood the value of the Harbor Maintenance Trust Fund, you 
will understand the value of getting full access to the Federal 
Buildings Fund.
    Senator Carper. Yes. Well, my colleagues also hear me say, 
and this is a quote from Einstein that they all say, find out 
what works, and do more of that. This is maybe one that we can 
take a close look at. Go ahead.
    Ms. Albert. There is one other thing that we have 
requested, and I think it is a really important point. It is 
not sexy, but it is important for efficiency. We have requested 
increase to our prospectus threshold.
    Right now, GSA's prospectus threshold is $3.6 million. That 
means that any investment in a building that exceeds $3.6 
million, whether it is an elevator repair, a roof repair, a 
boiler replacement, a chiller replacement, which, by the way, 
on a building of this scale and size, tends to be over $3.6 
million, has to come to Congress.
    That, internally, from GSA's perspective, as well as 
through the congressional process, takes up to 2 years to get 
approval. That means that that repair that was identified more 
than 2 years ago has escalated in cost and has contributed to 
greater deteriorating conditions.
    We are requesting that our prospectus threshold get 
increased to $10 million. We think that that is appropriate 
when we look at other agencies that have similar authorities.
    For example, the VA, their prospectus threshold is $20 
million. The DOD doesn't have a prospectus threshold and are 
permitted to invest in like kind replacement, so a boiler for a 
boiler, without any prospectus threshold. Those are the two 
pieces of legislation that I think have an immediate impact on 
ability to consolidate. And then in terms of the ability to 
dispose more quickly----
    Senator Carper. I am going to ask you to hold it right 
there. I am way over my time. We will come back and pick up on 
this when it is my turn again.
    Senator Capito, thanks for your patience.
    Senator Capito. Thank you.
    Commissioner Albert, in June, the GSA announced its plan to 
spend a billion dollars, that is from the IRA, to make more 
than 100 buildings cleaner and more energy efficient. Did the 
GSA look at the space utilization rates for each of those 
buildings to determine whether this is the best use of our 
dollars?
    Ms. Albert. Absolutely. For the past year, what we have 
been doing is looking through our entire inventory, identifying 
what we call segmenting the inventory into core assets. These 
are assets that the Federal Government should reinvest in 
because it serves a special need for the Federal Government.
    We have also identified candidates for disposition. And 
then there is kind of the bulk, if you will, of the assets that 
we are transitioning through.
    Those 100 buildings that were proposed and that we are 
moving forward with improving through Inflation Reduction Act 
funds are core assets. These are assets that the Federal 
Government should continue to own over the long term, and that 
we would be best served by investing those funds into.
    Senator Capito. So those are probably assets that I would 
say probably don't need the Federal Building Trust Fund money, 
because they are probably in good shape anyway.
    Ms. Albert. Well, I would not conclude that. The Inflation 
Reduction Act money is for very specific uses. The Federal 
Buildings Fund has much more flexibility in being able to pay 
for moves for agencies, and for other improvements.
    Senator Capito. Right. So just so I understand, so the 100 
buildings, we will do the emissions, sustainable technologies, 
but the buildings may not be in good shape, for room and space 
utilization?
    Ms. Albert. Correct. It may not be properly configured.
    Senator Capito. Why are we doing that? Why would we pick 
another building that has the great configuration and that you 
are matching up both missions, so that you then have, you don't 
have to worry about whether you have to maintain them or the 
bathrooms work or whatever? You see what I am saying?
    Ms. Albert. In terms of configuration, it is very common 
even in the private sector that you are constantly 
reconfiguring space inside a building. I don't consider that 
building condition. The building condition to me is the core 
and shell, is the plumbing working, is the heating working, is 
the roof in good shape.
    So for example, the IRA dollars, particularly the $1 
billion for emerging and sustainable technologies, is not 
replacement of a roof. That would be used for replacement of 
the heating and cooling systems, to make them all electric, for 
example. That is the purpose of the IRA dollars.
    In a Federal building, we may need both of those things to 
be true, to replace the roof and make that building envelope 
sound, as well as modernizing the heating and cooling.
    Senator Capito. Quick question on the Federal buildings. 
You say a billion dollars is being taken from it every year. 
How much is in that every year, yearly?
    Ms. Albert. It varies from between $10 billion to $11 
billion a year.
    Senator Capito. So a 10 percent cut is taken.
    Ms. Albert. Correct.
    Senator Capito. And they got another $10 billion to make 
these buildings right.
    Ms. Albert. And $5.6 billion of that is for payment of 
leases.
    Senator Capito. OK. So you are saying that the standard 
utilization, you are looking at the standard utilization before 
you make these investments in these buildings.
    Mr. Marroni, without a standard utilization benchmark, do 
you have concerns that investment decisions are being made with 
incomplete information? What I am understanding is, these 
agencies don't have standardized utilization benchmarks. Are 
they all over the place? Do some have them, some do not? What 
did you find?
    Mr. Marroni. In terms of the utilization measures, there is 
a range of benchmarks right now that are used, 180 square feet, 
210, 150, it varies by agency. There isn't a specific 
utilization benchmark, which is an important area of focus, I 
think, going forward, is to come up with not necessarily a one 
size fits all benchmark for every type of space, but some more 
consistent benchmarks, more consistent targets for how we 
measure space and how we determine what is fully utilized.
    Senator Capito. Right, and then you have the situation 
where people are coming in 2 days every 2 weeks for 4 hours a 
day. Shouldn't that be shared space? Then that cuts the space 
utilization, right?
    Mr. Marroni. Correct.
    Senator Capito. Are agencies doing that?
    Mr. Marroni. Some are. It depends.
    Senator Capito. How do we get them all to do that?
    Mr. Marroni. Agencies are making the decision with their in 
office attendance policies of how they are going to implement.
    Senator Capito. Is that done at each agency? I don't mean 
to interrupt you here, but I am interested in this. Is that 
done at the agency? Or does the GSA say, you have to have a 
space utilization that looks at what your telecommuting 
policies, which I personally don't like, what we are seeing 
here, but that doesn't matter what I like, I guess. Who makes 
that decision?
    Mr. Marroni. The agencies are deciding on their in office 
attendance.
    Senator Capito. Right. They decide the attendance. So 
everybody has got a different benchmark, then. Wouldn't it be 
good to have sort of a uniform benchmark, to be able to make 
better fiscal decisions?
    Mr. Marroni. It would be good to have more consistent 
benchmarks governmentwide. Again, not necessarily one size fits 
all, overly prescriptive.
    Senator Capito. Right, because we have some people who 
don't work in the office.
    Mr. Marroni. Right, different types, but it would be good 
to have better benchmarks than we have, that account for higher 
levels of telework.
    Senator Capito. Right. Do you know approximately how many 
properties are currently unoccupied in the Public Building 
Service? I guess this would be to you, Commissioner Albert. How 
many properties in the Public Building Service's inventory are 
currently unoccupied?
    Ms. Albert. We hardly have any buildings unoccupied. We 
have buildings that are underutilized. But buildings that are 
unoccupied usually move to the disposition list, or we will 
eliminate----
    Senator Capito. But doesn't the GAO report say that you are 
really not moving quick enough, the consistent reports over the 
last 20 years, is you are really not dispensing of this 
property as quickly and the authorities that we were giving you 
here in Congress are not really working? I said that in my 
opening statement. Is that a true statement?
    Ms. Albert. First of all, the relationship, and how all of 
this comes together is that the agency expresses what their 
demand or needs for space are. We supply that space. We have 
the expertise to inform them how to identify how much space 
they need, just to answer your earlier question.
    OMB in the past has issued Freeze the Footprint and Reduce 
the Footprint. That has driven, over the past 10 years, 45 
million square feet of space reduction. So there has been space 
reduction as a result of policy guidance.
    Now is a good time for continued policy guidance. And at 
this moment, what is occurring is utilization in the GAO report 
has highlighted and indicated that there is underutilized 
space, particularly in the headquarters buildings. That is 
different out in the regions or field offices. You see 
different activity in buildings.
    Where you see the greatest opportunity to contract is in 
general office space. For example, the VA and community based 
outpatient centers, we are expanding that program. So 
operational facilities may be expanding, but it is in general 
office space where telework is most frequently adopted, where 
you are seeing the greatest opportunity to consolidate.
    In order to be able to consolidate and drive the cost 
savings that we ultimately want to get to, it takes money to 
facilitate those moves.
    Senator Capito. Right. You have $10 billion a year.
    Ms. Albert. Ten billion dollars a year, all of which is 
obligated; $5.6 billion goes to paying rent contracts, about $3 
billion goes to operating and maintenance. Where we are seeing 
the greatest cuts in our budget is in repair and alteration, 
about 50 percent of our repair and alteration request every 
year is cut in half.
    Senator Capito. Mr. Marroni, did your report get into any 
of this in terms of the Building Trust Fund, and that is the 
reason we can't sell buildings and can't consolidate?
    Mr. Marroni. We didn't get into the Building Trust Fund. We 
do identify, agency officials identify one challenges as having 
the funding needed to reconfigure space. It does take money to 
reconfigure, to consolidate. Sometimes you have to invest money 
to save money.
    But we didn't get into detail about the Federal Building 
Fund itself. I think that is a balance between Congress' 
funding decisions and agency needs.
    Senator Capito. Thank you.
    Senator Carper. Senator Cardin.
    Senator Cardin. Let me thank both of you for your service.
    I am going to follow up on Senator Capito's point, maybe 
from a little bit different angle. Let me just refresh 
everyone's recollection that in the Inflation Reduction Act, 
Congress was very specific in providing resources, $2 billion 
for low carbon materials, $250 million for building retrofits, 
and $975 million for emerging sustainable technologies.
    It was a focus on sustainability. And our responsibilities 
as the owners and occupiers of the Federal facilities to add to 
the sustainability efforts that we made as a Nation and part of 
our international responsibilities.
    I want to get a better understanding of how you are dealing 
with the question that Senator Capito asked. How are you 
dealing with sustainability versus our square footage needs, so 
that we can have adequate space, but also comply with the clear 
direction by Congress?
    Ms. Albert. Well, what is pretty elegant about this entire 
thing is that we can serve both needs. Investment in building 
and making them more usable makes them more attractive, so that 
we can consolidate out of leases and into owned facilities.
    First of all, I want to share a little bit of the status of 
where we are in terms of placing funds from the Inflation 
Reduction Act. Two billion dollars of it was for low embodied 
carbon materials; that is in flat glass, concrete, asphalt and 
steel.
    We have launched a pilot for 11 buildings. Investment in 
those 11 buildings represents $1 billion out of those $2 
billion. That is really to socialize and get feedback from 
industry, the pilot is, to identify what specifications are 
acceptable and available for implementation. That is ongoing 
and should be wrapping up here before the end of the calendar 
year.
    That will be setting the stage and the standard for the 
building industry, which is what GSA has done in the past when 
we adopted LEED 20 years ago. It has set the standard for what 
sustainable buildings can and should be.
    As to the emerging and sustainable technologies funding, we 
have identified, as Senator Carper had mentioned in his opening 
remarks, $288 million to go into the DHS headquarters at St. 
Elizabeths. That is to make DHS campus a model for 
sustainability.
    It also tells the consolidation story. That investment and 
ability to deliver on three more buildings at St. Elizabeths 
will further consolidate multiple leases around the national 
capital region.
    Senator Cardin. Let me interrupt you on that. The largest 
single project is the replacement complex for the FBI. I am not 
going to get into the battles on the specific locations, I am 
not even going to ask you about that. But it does give us a 
chance to really make a statement on sustainability.
    Are we on track in the process to determine how we are 
moving forward and make a decision?
    Ms. Albert. We are on track. We share your urgency, and we 
are aligned in making the decision as quickly as possible.
    Senator Cardin. I have heard that for about a decade.
    [Laughter.]
    Senator Cardin. I hope that you will keep us engaged 
throughout that process. There is a lot of competition, but 
there is no disagreement on the need to move forward in regard 
to making that a model in regard to sustainability with the 
tools that are available. We look forward to that.
    Let me talk about one existing structure that you should 
knock down and rebuild for many different reasons. That is the 
courthouse in Baltimore. It has the honor of being, let me get 
my numbers, built in 1970. It was noted as the least expensive 
courthouse per square foot. And we got what we paid for.
    It is not only inadequate, we keep on pouring millions and 
millions of dollars into it for repairs and patchwork, but it 
is an example of a building that gives us the opportunity to 
meet the needs of the Federal bench, Federal courthouse in 
Baltimore, and at the same time balance that with 
sustainability.
    Are you trying to identify projects like that, that are 
win-win projects, to get the needs met but also give us a 
chance to replace a carbon terrible building with one that 
would be best for sustainability?
    Ms. Albert. Absolutely. I had mentioned that we have 
identified and segmented our portfolio into core assets, 
transitioning assets, and disposal candidates. Those core 
assets are those ones that we are seeking to make at the 
highest level of sustainability as well as other types of 
performance, including utilization. That is why the IRA dollars 
that we have been using, as well as directing most of our 
Federal Buildings Fund requests, capital improvements, to be in 
those core assets, which will again, not only drive the highest 
level of sustainability in those buildings, lead the market by 
doing so, demonstrating that it can be done, as well as 
maximizing utilization of that building.
    Senator Cardin. Thank you.
    I would just really point out, as we have said many times, 
this is a once in a generation opportunity to make significant 
progress in our Federal buildings to deal with our 
responsibilities for sustainability. I hope that you will be 
aggressive, keep us engaged, and look at these buildings that 
need to be replaced or the new ones coming along, and show the 
Nation and show the world that we are taking the leadership on 
this issue.
    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Senator Carper. Senator Cardin, thank you for your long 
time interest in these issues. As we go forward from here and 
to the floor and take some action, we hope and expect you will 
be fully engaged. We welcome that.
    We have been joined by Senator Markey and Senator Merkley.
    Senator Markey, I think you are first, and Senator Merkley, 
you are right behind him.
    Senator Markey. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, very much.
    The Massachusetts emergency shelter system has 6,500 
families right now and 22,000 individuals in a shelter system 
that is at capacity. The need for shelter will only increase 
during the winter.
    The Federal Government is the single largest owner of real 
estate in the Nation. But much of the capacity goes unused. It 
is a no brainer that we ought to be converting surplus Federal 
assets into properties that may be used to provide emergency 
shelters, permanent housing, and services to the homeless.
    Through partnership with the Department of Housing and 
Urban Development, GSA has already made thousands of properties 
available for housing, but more could be done.
    Commissioner Albert, are you working to increase the number 
of suitable properties transferred from GSA to nonprofits and 
local governments experiencing severe shortages in housing and 
shelter space?
    Ms. Albert. Thank you for that question, and we absolutely 
are. The circumstances in most of our buildings that are 
underutilized that could be made available for disposal or 
disposition for others to use is that they are not fully empty. 
So that is why we have requested full access to the Federal 
Buildings Fund. It is why we are asking for expanded authority 
for use of our disposal fund, so that that last remaining 
agency that might have a foothold in an underutilized building 
can confidently say, I am moving out, because I know where I am 
going, and has the funds to do that.
    We have had a great track record of success in putting 
property on the market, either doing a government to government 
transfer, offering property for redevelopment with not for 
profits. And I specifically want to point to a recent success 
story in that, which is in Alameda, California, where we 
disposed of a piece of property and it was converted to 400 
units of homeless supported housing.
    So there are many examples of that. But the key to moving 
forward on any of that is being able to take that last small 
footprint of Federal use that is in a building and incentivize 
it or provide it with the resources to move out so that we can 
recycle those buildings for better use.
    Senator Markey. So the GSA is willing, then, to transfer 
GSA lease buildings in whole or in part to nonprofits and local 
governments to be used for affordable housing?
    Ms. Albert. Did you say leased buildings, sir?
    Senator Markey. That is right.
    Ms. Albert. That will be more complicated. Because there is 
a landlord, a private landlord that would need to agree to 
that. We don't control the building.
    Senator Markey. Would you be willing to participate in a 
pilot project to accomplish that goal in leased buildings for 
the transference?
    Ms. Albert. I would certainly be happy to talk to you about 
how we could effectuate something like that.
    Senator Markey. I would like to work with you on that, to 
have a pilot project, so that we might be able to accomplish 
that goal. Thank you.
    I am deeply alarmed that GSA is failing to address urgent 
safety issues and ongoing infrastructure deficiencies at the 
John F. Kennedy Federal Building in Boston. Senator Warren and 
I both have staff who work out of that building every day, 24 
stories high. It is a complete Federal building, more than 
2,000 people work in the JFK building, including GSA staff. 
Thousands of others come to the building for necessary 
appointments, for citizenship appointments, taxpayer 
assistance, veterans benefits, all those agencies are in the 
building.
    There are several people who have already had issues, 
difficulty in ensuring that their voices can be heard, because 
the elevators routinely malfunction. They are dropping, they 
are trapping people for hours, delivering occupants to the 
wrong floor, idling useless after a floor button is pressed.
    In one recent instance, it required hours long intervention 
of the Boston Fire Department to extricate trapped individuals 
in a malfunctioning elevator, with the incident appearing on 
Boston local television stations, because of the seriousness of 
the issue.
    Conditions are unacceptably dangerous and inaccessible. 
Elevators, asbestos, and at 5:55 every day, all the lights go 
off, and the air conditioning, and heating, for the entire 
building. Individual offices cannot continue to work. Everyone 
has to get out.
    So it doesn't seem like the elevators are going to be fully 
fixed until 2025. That can't be the speed at which our 
government works.
    Commissioner Albert, do you think it is acceptable for your 
GSA colleagues, my staff, and thousands of other staff and 
visitors to be subjected to such ongoing building safety 
issues, not just for months but now for multiple years?
    Ms. Albert. I absolutely do not think it is acceptable. 
Life safety investments are our top priority and largest 
concern now. The reasons that buildings like the JFK building 
in Boston are in the condition they are in is specifically tied 
to the limitations in access to the Federal Buildings Fund.
    I don't want to exaggerate that. That is an actual example 
of how our lack of access to the Federal Buildings Fund to 
maintain life safety equipment and systems has not been able to 
be met.
    The need at JFK in particular, we requested in fiscal year 
2022 $150 million to make improvements to all of JFK. So we 
identified more than 4 years ago the needs to reinvest and 
improve JFK. We unfortunately didn't get the money in fiscal 
year 2022, and now we have been able to invest one by one, we 
have spent $9 million on those elevator systems. But because of 
the prospectus threshold, we are having to invest in each 
elevator system one by one, because it would take 2 years if we 
were to make an investment that exceeds the prospectus 
threshold.
    So in order to address the elevator concerns, we have been 
moving forward as quickly as we can. But we are having to go 
one by one, rather than address the total needs of the 
building.
    Senator Markey. Clearly, this isn't working. So we have to 
figure this out. We shouldn't have empty building stock and 
crumbling buildings that people go to work in every single day. 
If this is a matter of figuring out our funding priorities or 
raising money by leasing Government buildings, let's figure 
this out. Just like the JFK elevators, the status quo isn't 
working at GSA, just as the elevator or the system.
    We have to be fair to these people who work, these 2,000 
people who are in there every single day, in order to get a 
solution. I really would request a focus on this issue at GSA 
to resolve these issues for that building.
    Ms. Albert. If I may say, I will absolutely follow up with 
you on this. What I seek is a partnership, because it is a 
combination of actions between GSA as well as Congress in order 
to be able to correct this longstanding issue.
    Senator Markey. Let's create the partnership. Let's get it 
done. But it is years now, and it is getting oppressive for 
people who work there. Many people now walk down 9, 12, 15 
stories every single day because they don't want to get on the 
elevators. That is just unfair to people, and some people just 
ultimately wind up saying, I am not going to work, not because 
they don't want to go to work, because they just don't want the 
15, 18, 20 story walk every single day. It is unfair to them.
    Thank you.
    Senator Carper. I would say to our witnesses, this 
Committee has a pretty good reputation for partnerships. Maybe 
this is another way we can demonstrate that.
    Senator Merkley, thanks for your patience. You are 
recognized. Welcome.
    Senator Merkley. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and 
thank you, Commissioner.
    Commissioner, since 2015 mass timber has seen unprecedented 
growth in the United States from just a handful of buildings 8 
years ago to almost 2,000 today. American made mass timber 
offers a way to dramatically lower carbon emissions associated 
with concrete and steel buildings, and it does so while 
enjoying some other significant benefits, seismic benefits, 
structural durability, increased resilience to fire, decreased 
construction time.
    The fiscal year 2023 appropriations bill included 
directions for GSA to work with partners to expand the 
utilization of mass timber and innovative wood products in 
Federal buildings. How are you implementing that?
    Ms. Albert. Our team of engineers, particularly those that 
are experts in this, have been working with industry and 
researching what the opportunities for mass timber are for 
integration into Federal buildings. I would love to follow up 
with you to provide more current and detailed status.
    But I will say that in general, where we are right now in 
terms of managing the portfolio and the opportunities before us 
are really around retrofitting and improving existing owned 
buildings as opposed to new construction, which is where we 
could integrate mass timber more readily.
    But we will get back to you and the Committee with more 
details on what we have found and the opportunities we have for 
integrating mass timber.
    Senator Merkley. Do you have a single mass timber building 
at this point?
    Ms. Albert. I am not aware of one, but we also haven't 
undertaken too many new construction projects.
    Senator Merkley. Are you familiar with what mass timber is?
    Ms. Albert. I am, yes.
    Senator Merkley. Great. Well, just for others, it is the 
compilation of products that include mass plywood, where the 
plywood can become not an inch think, but very, very thick, 
creating key structural elements or other key laminated 
products, including massive floors. It sequesters a massive 
amount of carbon. You can assemble these, like an erector set, 
very, very quickly, which saves a massive amount on 
construction loans. And unlike concrete and steel, that take a 
tremendous amount of energy to create, these don't take a lot 
of energy to create.
    So, huge advantages. I really encourage you to come back 
next year and say, we do have some mass timber buildings that 
we have acquired for use or are building. I am hoping for 
quicker, more significant action within the coming year.
    Commissioner, plastic pollution is one of the greatest 
environmental threats of our time, driven largely by the use 
and disposal of single use plastics. GSA has the ability to 
make a difference by addressing single use plastics across the 
Federal Government, purchasing contracts related to 
construction, to concessions, to facility maintenance contracts 
as well.
    As the GSA is modernizing its facilities in accordance with 
President Biden's executive orders on climate and clean energy, 
does the Administration have explicit plans to minimize the 
procurement and use of plastic products, including single use 
and packaging plastics?
    Ms. Albert. I am not familiar off the top of my head of 
that. So I will absolutely look into that and follow up and 
provide you with an answer.
    Senator Merkley. Great, thank you.
    We are seeing that the plastic which is made with fossil 
gas is a huge contributor to climate chaos, which we are 
suffering everywhere. Also, that the plastic on the other end 
ends up in our waterways, resulting in the pollution of our 
streams and our oceans. We are now finding microplastics 
throughout human bodies, including the human heart and human 
breast milk, et cetera. Plastic contains endocrine disruptors 
which affect reproductive health.
    So it is a factor in many, many ways. The GSA could be a 
leader in taking this on. Can we count on you to thoroughly 
explore this question and pursue it, not just for our 
environment, but also for human health?
    Ms. Albert. I will absolutely follow up with you on this.
    Senator Merkley. Thank you.
    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Senator Carper. Thank you.
    Senator Ricketts.
    Senator Ricketts. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    The Federal property management has been on the High Risk 
List for GAO for 20 years. So this is an ongoing issue, not 
just an issue created by the pandemic, and certainly, remote 
work is one of the contributors to the lack of utilization of 
office space. I agree with you, Ranking Member Capito, remote 
work should be a tool, not an expectation of people. It needs 
to be properly managed, just like everything else, with regard 
to our space.
    When I was Governor of Nebraska, we actually put together a 
strategy for our real estate. We worked with our State building 
division to come up with that. What we focused on was 
consolidating our like service agencies together to create a 
one stop shop for people, but also to create synergies in their 
work output. For example, we put the Department of Economic 
Development, the Department of Agriculture, Department of 
Environment and Energy, other boards and commissions all 
together in one spot so we could promote the interests of the 
State of Nebraska. We developed Fallbrook office space, and by 
doing that, we were able to consolidate, put those agencies 
over there and consolidate our Department of Health and Human 
Services into one building in our downtown location to be able 
to provide better services there.
    Overall, that actually reduced our footprint by 60,000 
square feet, saving Nebraska taxpayers $700,000 a year. Now we 
are hearing, of course, from your report that 75 percent of the 
office space in 17 agencies here in Washington, DC, are unused 
office space.
    Mr. Marroni, it sounds like your recommendations would be 
in line with what we did here at the State of Nebraska, is that 
a fair statement, to try to bring like service agencies 
together?
    Mr. Marroni. I certainly think that would be one option for 
agencies to consider is consolidation, sharing space, those 
should all be on the table.
    Senator Ricketts. When we talk about $7 billion, is that 
roughly right, what we are spending every year on this office 
space?
    Mr. Marroni. Government-wide.
    Senator Ricketts. What do you think the cost savings would 
be if we could address the issues with regard to the unutilized 
office space and some of the other things we just talked about?
    Mr. Marroni. I don't have a specific number, but it 
certainly could be substantial. We spend a lot of money 
operating, maintaining, and leasing facilities in this country. 
You could save a lot if you get rid of extra space.
    Senator Ricketts. So when you say a lot, is that like 10 
percent, or do you think 50 percent? What do you think?
    Mr. Marroni. It is hard to give an estimate. But 
substantial, depending on agency decisions.
    Senator Ricketts. OK.
    Commissioner, you talked a little bit about your role in 
this. It sounds like from what you said it is really the 
agencies that have to drive these plans. Is that fair, that the 
agencies have to come up and say, this is my utilization, or 
the space I need, and the agencies have to drive this? You 
don't have the ability to tell agencies, hey, you have too much 
space, get out?
    Ms. Albert. We don't have the ability to tell them what to 
do. But it is a partnership, and it is often done in 
collaboration. Not all agencies are created equal. There are 
very large agencies that have big real estate staff within the 
agency, and they are creating their own plans. There are other 
agencies that rely on GSA's expertise.
    So it is a mix.
    Senator Ricketts. So you help facilitate it, but it really 
has to be the leadership of the agency to drive this, is that 
what I am understanding, is that fair?
    Ms. Albert. It is. But if I can just share a couple of 
things that GSA has been doing, particularly since the 
pandemic, so that kind of what the solutions are going forward 
are more in the forefront of people's minds, because there has 
been a lot of evolution about how people are using space.
    We created a workplace innovation lab, we have had more 
than 120 different tours by a variety of different agencies, 
even agencies that we don't manage space for, for example, the 
DOD, coming to see what the new workplace models are. We are 
launching Federal co-working spaces in six locations across the 
country so that agencies can see what a more flexible workplace 
looks like, or that they can work out of our Federal co-working 
spaces, rather than relying on leases. So we are looking at new 
models and partnering with agencies so they can see what the 
future could entail.
    It is also a fantastic change management and employee 
engagement tool. Because we have made the capital investment in 
those types of spaces, agencies can bring teams to work through 
them and see how they want to work in the future, and try and 
accelerate that learning, get over that communication hump as 
to what these benefits of consolidation or working in different 
work modes look like.
    Senator Ricketts. It seems to me, Mr. Chairman and Ranking 
Member, that what we ought to be doing is bringing in the heads 
of these agencies, especially the biggest offenders, and have 
them explain why they haven't put together a real estate plan 
to consolidate, if they are at 25 percent utilization, and 
really put the onus on them to come back with a plan and drive 
this. Because this has been a problem for 20 years. It is not 
happening. And if the agencies that have to put together a 
plan, which makes sense--as Governor, it was my leadership that 
drove our plan, it wasn't happening before--we need to have 
these agency heads start working on this plan. That is who we 
should get in here and ask them why they are not doing what 
they are supposed to be doing with regard to right sizing an 
organization and coming up with the plans they need to to 
address remote work or whatever is going on.
    Thank you very much. I appreciate it.
    Senator Carper. Senator Capito is going next.
    Let me just say, Senator Ricketts and I are members of a 
small, elite group of Senators that are recovering Governors. 
We begin a lot of our sentences with, ``When I was Governor of 
Delaware,'' or whatever. My colleagues get tired of it.
    [Laughter.]
    Senator Carper. But I think we are onto something here. 
Earlier I said, find out what works, do more of that. Let's see 
what we can learn from what you have done in your State and 
work together.
    I said to Senator Capito as an aside, Tom Coburn and I 
worked on these issues for years, our staff worked on these 
issues for years. We made some progress, but there is more 
still to be done. We look forward to addressing it with your 
full involvement. Thank you.
    Senator Capito.
    Senator Capito. Thank you.
    This sort of goes off what Senator Ricketts was just 
saying.
    Mr. Marroni, your study focused on headquarters buildings. 
What do we know about the utilization of other Federal office 
buildings that are not headquarters?
    Mr. Marroni. We don't know a lot. The quality of the data, 
even at the headquarters level, was variable. And out in the 
field, there is much less data to assess how these buildings 
are being utilized.
    I think it is a reasonable assumption that buildings in the 
field that are of similar nature to headquarters buildings, 
office spaces that are not doing customer facing roles, policy, 
budget, administrative, probably have similar levels of 
utilization. But we do not have the data to define that work.
    Senator Capito. Do you get any kind of sense since your 
testimony in July that any agencies have made any progress in 
terms of trying to right size? Have you heard anything back 
from that?
    Mr. Marroni. Certainly, some agencies are coming out with 
their in office attendance policies, which is a crucial step to 
understand how many folks are going to be coming in. You need 
the data from that to then figure out how much space we really 
need.
    So there has been some progress on that front. I know 
agencies have submitted information to OMB as well on some of 
their plans. So there is some forward movement here. But it is 
variable.
    Senator Capito. We will see.
    I want to ask about St. Elizabeths, since the Chairman went 
out and visited yesterday, and you talked about it. 
Commissioner, I was the ranking member on Homeland Security 
Appropriations. This was a big issue, trying to consolidate 
everything to St. Elizabeths. What is the space utilization of 
that facility right now?
    Ms. Albert. I don't know what the actual utilization is. I 
will say a couple of different things. Since the pandemic, 
particularly for a couple of their major buildings at St. 
Elizabeths, DHS has rearranged some of the buildings to 
integrate, because of lower utilization than when it was 
originally planned, to integrate another 2,000 people onto the 
campus, further consolidating. They are continuing to drive 
utilization.
    Senator Capito. They are going to drop their leases around 
town here to consolidate?
    Ms. Albert. Correct.
    Senator Capito. I understood at the time that we talked 
about this that were certain agencies and others under the 
Homeland Security umbrella that didn't want to relocate. So 
they are forcing them to locate there.
    Ms. Albert. Yes, they are forcing them to relocate, or 
frankly, agencies, now that the campus has come along so far, 
it is a beautiful campus. Wonderful facilities. So folks are 
also seeing what the advantages are of co-locating. So just the 
passage of time and people getting used to the notion that that 
is where the center of the DHS headquarters is, and wanting to 
be close and proximate to their other colleagues.
    Senator Capito. Mr. Marroni, was Homeland Security one of 
your agencies?
    Mr. Marroni. It was.
    Senator Capito. Do you have it there?
    Mr. Marroni. Yes. They were in the highest quartile; they 
were at about 30 percent utilization.
    Senator Capito. Was that at St. Elizabeths then?
    Mr. Marroni. That would be the headquarters which, three 
buildings, does include St. Elizabeths.
    Senator Capito. How many buildings are there? There are 
tons of buildings at St. Elizabeths.
    Mr. Marroni. It included the campus and two other buildings 
off of it.
    Senator Capito. I think for people who are listening, too, 
to realize that, and I think you confirmed the figures here, $2 
billion is the cost to the taxpayer every year to operate the 
buildings, is that correct? And $5 billion to lease? Are those 
accurate figures?
    Ms. Albert. It is $5.6 billion to lease, then it would be 
another, to properly operate the portfolio, would be another $4 
billion to $5 billion needed. We don't get that every year.
    Senator Capito. What are we spending? That is what I am 
asking. I understand we don't have enough; your point was 
pretty clear. What are we spending, $2 billion?
    Do you know, Mr. Marroni?
    Mr. Marroni. Our number is over $2 billion, yes.
    Senator Capito. Two billion. OK.
    So I am going to go back to my original question with the 
Commissioner on the IRA. Senator Cardin talked about it. I 
think we were kind of getting around to the same point from a 
different direction.
    Are those 100 buildings going to change? Those are the ones 
I would think that if you are making them fully sustainable, 
they are going to last forever, they are going to have all the 
energy provisions that are provided for with the IRA, I would 
imagine that when you come back in a year to 3 years, that the 
space utilization there would be 80, 90, 100 percent. I know 
nothing is occupied 100 percent, but in that range.
    Is that what you are anticipating? Or will you drop 
buildings out if you see that those are not the ones that 
warrant all this huge investment of dollars, and they are just 
going to sit there?
    Ms. Albert. So, of the 100 buildings, we are very confident 
that those are buildings that the Federal Government will 
occupy.
    Senator Capito. They are occupying all these other 
buildings at 25 percent.
    Ms. Albert. Our job as GSA is to drive utilization of the 
building. That is what we aspire to do, just like any private 
landlord. We want that building used as fully as possible, 
because it saves money, it also keeps, there is a whole variety 
of benefits to fully occupying Federal space.
    Senator Capito. Right. But obviously, if that is your goal, 
and we are looking at buildings here in the DC area that are 25 
percent and less, we are not hitting the goal there. So by 
making these buildings, the premium buildings, I would imagine 
that is what they are, the five star government buildings, we 
will put it like that, where people understand what that means 
when you are looking at it for a hotel, that this would not 
just drive utilization, but there has to be some coordination 
between these agencies to say, you have to get into these 
buildings.
    Ms. Albert. I will give a real example. In Chicago, we have 
a more than million square foot building, a core asset. We are 
reinvesting in that building, and we have, since the pandemic, 
HHS in Chicago, has identified that they want to move out of 
leases and consolidate into a federally owned building. So our 
work is to what we call restack a building, make space for HHS 
to come in.
    There are a couple of other agencies that we have also been 
doing that with. It is done in a coordinated manner. Because as 
you are moving people around, everybody has to know what is 
going on in the building.
    That is a very different situation than, for example, the 
headquarters in Washington, DC, where it is a single tenant.
    So out in the regions, we have buildings that are occupied 
by as many as 27 different agencies. We are actively managing 
and moving folks around because their space needs might be 
20,000 square feet up to 100,000 square feet, very variable. It 
is like a puzzle piece that we are constantly moving around to 
make it as efficient as possible.
    That is only possible when the building is operable and in 
good shape, doesn't have elevator issues, is properly cooled 
and heated.
    Senator Capito. Yes, and I don't know why we can't do that 
in DC. Why does everybody have to have their own building if it 
is only 25 percent occupied?
    Ms. Albert. In DC, what people are doing right now, because 
I consider utilization or occupancy an indicator. It is not 
actually the answer. It is an indicator of whether or not the 
building is fully utilized. Now people are seeing what the 
numbers are, in part because of the GAO report, but we were 
aware of it prior to that. Excited about the cost saving 
opportunity, the hard work is being done now. Looking at the 
leases across the portfolio, and whether they can be 
consolidated into a single building, we are seeing different 
agencies taking those actions.
    Senator Capito. In DC?
    Ms. Albert. In DC. GSA is actually the perfect example. We 
ourselves occupy an entire building, 1800 F Street.
    Senator Capito. We moved in there when we had, right after 
9/11, in the buildings, we moved into your space.
    Ms. Albert. Yes. And it is pretty good space in half the 
building. The other half of the building, we can't market 
because it hasn't been renovated in more than 20 years. So part 
of our lack of occupancy in 1800 F is that half of the building 
is not occupiable because it is not in good enough working 
condition.
    The other part of the building, however, we have been able 
to consolidate six of GSA's own leases within the National 
Capital Region into 1800 F. That was back in 2012. But it is an 
iterative process. We have reduced now two buildings, we used 
to occupy a building at 7th and D, our National Capital Region 
function, 1,000 people. They have now come and consolidated 
into 1800 F. That was pre-pandemic, literally, unfortunately I 
think 2 months prior to the pandemic beginning.
    Now, post-pandemic, we are shrinking our footprint even 
more and talking to other agencies about who might be an 
interested partner in consolidating into our own facility.
    Senator Capito. Well, I hope we can get this right. I think 
it could result, if we save money on all these, $7 billion a 
year, that is more money for reshaping your buildings. So I 
would ask that you would commit to providing me with an updated 
list of these 100 buildings as it moves along and their space 
utilization rates and the dollar amounts of the projects from 
the IRA.
    Thank you. Thank you both.
    Senator Carper. I have a couple more questions, then we 
will wrap it up. Fortunately, we haven't had any votes, at 
least not in the Senate, so we have been able to have a good 
conversation. Again, we appreciate your being here with us for 
that.
    We talked a whole lot about the High Risk List. We are 
grateful to the GAO for producing the High Risk List for us 
every year. And it is important that we read it, and not just 
say, well, there is the High Risk List; it is important we act 
on it. In any instance, it is not possible for any one party or 
executive branch, legislative branch to do it by themselves. 
This calls for partnerships, it calls for collaborations. As I 
said earlier, that is what we are pretty good at on this 
Committee.
    I understand that GAO is considering adding the GSA's 
maintenance backlog to the High Risk List in 2025. What factors 
is GAO considering in making this determination?
    Mr. Marroni. We have done some recent work looking at the 
growth of the deferred maintenance backlog. In 5 years' time 
between 2017 to 2021 it went up by 50 percent to $76 billion. 
So it is a growing concern.
    We have previously had deferred maintenance on our High 
Risk List. We had taken it off previously in 2010, based on 
some changes that had been done. But now that the backlog is 
increasing again, that gives us concern. So we are definitely 
keeping track of that issue. It very well may appear in 2025.
    Senator Carper. OK, thank you.
    This will be a question for you, Commissioner Albert. I 
believe July's GAO report highlights that some Federal agencies 
are reluctant to share their operating space. Tell us a little 
bit about that. Specifically, Mr. Marroni's testimony mentions 
the agencies' officials consider what is called inter-agency 
silos a challenge to space utilization.
    Commissioner Albert, how is the GSA working with Federal 
agencies and Federal departments to address barriers to co-
location and operating space consolidation to achieve 
efficiencies?
    Ms. Albert. We are talking to agencies right now, actually, 
to see which agencies are prioritizing consolidating leases 
into their own facility. That would be a primary and probably 
most desired strategy, because then you would gain the 
efficiencies of being consolidated.
    But for those agencies, and GSA again, being the prime 
example, will not even after full consolidation need to occupy 
an entire building, we are reaching out and identifying 
agencies that would be interested in co-locating with us. There 
are a couple of agencies that fall into that category where 
their building capacity exceeds their total space needs. And 
what is very interesting about many but not all Federal 
buildings in the national capital region is because of the 
scale and size of them you actually can subdivide those 
buildings to accommodate different headquarters and still 
provide that marquee designated independent entrance that would 
be dedicated to a headquarters and worthy of a headquarters 
building.
    It is an evolving conversation, primarily based on agencies 
wanting to first look at how they can backfill their 
headquarters with their existing leases, as opposed to sharing 
as a primary strategy. Those conversations are going on, and I 
think there are very interesting models now, particularly for 
sharing of other types of spaces as well. I will use conference 
centers, training centers, we are seeing that as people lean 
more into hybrid work, the types of space they need is not so 
much dedicated desks and offices, but now collaboration spaces.
    Again, I will cite GSA's own example. We have a one story 
conference center that is booked out for more than a year now, 
because there is so much demand for that kind of auditorium and 
collaboration space. So that is where we are seeing more, 
greater demand for space. And we could see, for example, an 
agency consolidating perhaps in the top floors of the building 
and then making their bottom floors of their building available 
as conference centers.
    Lots of different strategies to include and think about.
    Senator Carper. Good. Thank you.
    Just last week, we celebrated the anniversary of something 
called Kigali, which is a ratification, it is an amendment to 
the Montreal Protocol that phases out the use of super-
polluting HFCs, hydrofluorocarbons, in refrigerants. The 
refrigeration industry is working hard to reclaim and reuse 
refrigerants and reclaimed refrigerants are as good as new and 
competitively priced. But there isn't much of a market for them 
yet, we are told.
    Commissioner Albert, has GSA considered requiring the use 
of reclaimed refrigerants in new or recharged equipment as a 
way to reduce emissions across the Federal Government?
    Ms. Albert. We have, and we are proud to say that we are a 
leader in this. We have worked very closely with industry to 
prove that you can reuse refrigerants in existing equipment 
without deteriorating or otherwise impacting existing equipment 
and putting forward standards in what is called our P100 which 
drives design standards in buildings for reused refrigerants.
    Senator Carper. All right, good.
    You have had the opportunity to give an opening statement, 
each of you did. You have been good to answer our questions, 
and we will have a few more probably in writing.
    Is there anything you would like to say in closing before 
we wrap it up in a few minutes?
    Senator Capito. I just have one question that I can't 
resist asking. To both of you, GSA and GAO, what is your in 
office policy, working policy?
    Mr. Marroni. GAO just came out with its revised in office 
policy a week or two ago. There are many options. It includes a 
remote work option, some staff can work remotely, that becomes 
their official duty location. Others, depending on their role, 
need to come into the office 4 days a pay period. And others 
come into the office on a regular basis. It depends on the 
mission need and what that person's role is.
    Ms. Albert. We have a similar approach. We have done what 
we call position categorization, looked at every single 
position, because there is so much diversity in GSA about what 
people do. That is what dictates their telework status.
    We have building managers that must come into the office 
every day. And then we have procurement specialists that may 
quality for remote work. A vast majority of GSA employees are 
in what is called kind of a telework status, or onsite flexible 
status. The minimum requirement for that is 2 days a pay 
period.
    Senator Capito. What does a day consist of? How many hours?
    Ms. Albert. Eight hours a day, a standard work day.
    Senator Capito. Thank you for that.
    Ms. Albert. But again, looking at the Public Building 
Service, which is what I am responsible for, we have 
construction managers who have to be onsite, there is no 
substitute for that. So we tend to be in the office or onsite, 
whether it is in a physical office or on a construction site, 
more frequently than, for example, some of our technology 
colleagues. It just depends, based on the job.
    Senator Carper. Thank you very much.
    I have alluded to today, a couple of times, to Albert 
Einstein and also to Dr. Tom Coburn, our late colleague. 
Einstein used to say, as I mentioned earlier, in adversity lies 
opportunity. Dr. Coburn was just unrelenting in going after 
waste in government. He was a great partner of ours, and I miss 
him to this day.
    He was a deeply religious person, as I think was Dr. 
Einstein. They are looking down today at this hearing and 
probably saying, well, let's get this done. My dad used to say 
to my sister and me when we were kids growing up, born in West 
Virginia and grew up in Virginia, used to say to us, just use 
some common sense. He said it a lot. You probably all remember 
things your parents would say to you over and over again. My 
dad would say that a lot. We must not have had any common 
sense.
    But I take those words with me every day. He was also a big 
one for not wasting money, his money, our family's money. I 
have taken that seriously all my life. I got to be Treasurer of 
the State of Delaware when I was 29. We had the worst credit 
rating in the country. We could only do better, and when I was 
Governor, we made it AAA, we still have AAA credit ratings. We 
have worked hard in our State at the State level to try to 
spend taxpayer money a lot smarter, and I think we have done 
well, as have a lot of other States.
    I want to close by thanking you for appearing before us 
today. I want to thank you for your work.
    Mr. Marroni, give our best to Gene Dodaro, one of my 
favorite people is our Comptroller General. How long has he 
been Comptroller General? Since Albert Einstein walked the 
earth.
    [Laughter.]
    Senator Carper. It has been a long time. Give him our best, 
tell him we are still interested in these issues and committed 
to making progress on them.
    We look forward to hearing about GSA's continued work with 
Federal agencies to embrace the opportunity of modernizing and 
right sizing the Federal real estate portfolio.
    Before we adjourn, a little bit of housekeeping. Senators 
may submit questions for the record until the close of business 
on Wednesday, October 11th. We will compile those questions and 
send them to our witnesses and ask the witnesses to reply by 
Wednesday, October 25th.
    Before we adjourn, I just want to say to our staffs, we get 
to sit up here and ask these questions and so forth and give 
speeches. We have really good staff people sitting right behind 
us. I want to say to both majority and minority staffs, thanks 
very much for bringing a couple of good witnesses here and 
addressing an issue that really needs to be not just addressed 
and talked about but acted upon.
    We look forward to working with you and the folks that you 
work with as well.
    I think with that, it is a wrap. This hearing is adjourned.
    Senator Capito, thank you very much.
    [Whereupon, at 11:34 a.m., the hearing was adjourned.]

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