[Senate Hearing 118-296]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]


                                                        S. Hrg. 118-296

                        BUDGETING FOR THE STORM:
                    CLIMATE CHANGE AND THE COSTS TO
                           NATIONAL SECURITY

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

                        COMMITTEE ON THE BUDGET
                          UNITED STATES SENATE

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                             SECOND SESSION

                               __________

                              May 15, 2024

                               __________

           Printed for the use of the Committee on the Budget
           
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                        COMMITTEE ON THE BUDGET

               SHELDON WHITEHOUSE, Rhode Island, Chairman
               
PATTY MURRAY, Washington             CHARLES E. GRASSLEY, Iowa
RON WYDEN, Oregon                    MIKE CRAPO, Idaho
DEBBIE STABENOW, Michigan            LINDSEY O. GRAHAM, South Carolina
BERNARD SANDERS, Vermont             RON JOHNSON, Wisconsin
MARK R. WARNER, Virginia             MITT ROMNEY, Utah
JEFF MERKLEY, Oregon                 ROGER MARSHALL, Kansas
TIM KAINE, Virginia                  MIKE BRAUN, Indiana
CHRIS VAN HOLLEN, Maryland           JOHN KENNEDY, Louisiana
BEN RAY LUJAN, New Mexico            RICK SCOTT, Florida
ALEX PADILLA, California             MIKE LEE, Utah

                   Dan Dudis, Majority Staff Director
        Kolan Davis, Republican Staff Director and Chief Counsel
                   Mallory B. Nersesian, Chief Clerk 
                  Alexander C. Scioscia, Hearing Clerk
                            
                            
                            C O N T E N T S

                              ----------                              

                        WEDNESDAY, MAY 15, 2024
                        
                OPENING STATEMENTS BY COMMITTEE MEMBERS

                                                                   Page
Senator Sheldon Whitehouse, Chairman.............................     1
    Prepared Statement...........................................    34
Senator Charles E. Grassley......................................     3
    Prepared Statement...........................................    36

                    STATEMENTS BY COMMITTEE MEMBERS

Senator Tim Kaine................................................    19
Senator Ron Johnson..............................................    21
Senator Chris Van Hollen.........................................    23
Senator Mike Braun...............................................    25
Senator Mark Warner..............................................    27
Senator Alex Padilla.............................................    28
Senator Ben Ray Lujan............................................    30

                               WITNESSES

Hon. Dennis V. McGinn, VADM USN Ret., Former Assistant Secretary 
  of the Navy for Energy, Installations, and Environment, and 
  Former Deputy Chief of Naval Operations for Warfare 
  Requirements and Programs......................................     7
    Prepared Statement...........................................    39
Ms. Erin Sikorsky, Director, The Center for Climate and Security, 
  and The International Military Council on Climate and Security.     9
    Prepared Statement...........................................    43
    Addendum.....................................................    46
Mr. Rick Dwyer, Executive Director, Hampton Roads Military and 
  Federal Facilities Alliance....................................    11
    Prepared Statement...........................................    86
Hon. Tim Gallaudet, Ph.D., RDML USN Ret., Former Oceanographer of 
  the Navy, and Former Assistant Secretary of Commerce for Oceans 
  and Atmosphere.................................................    13
    Prepared Statement...........................................    97
Ms. Mackenzie Eaglen, Senior Fellow, American Enterprise 
  Institute......................................................    15
    Prepared Statement...........................................   102

                                APPENDIX

Responses to post-hearing questions for the Record
    Hon. Gallaudet...............................................   112
Statements submitted for the Record by Chairman Sheldon 
  Whitehouse.....................................................   118

 
                        BUDGETING FOR THE STORM:
                    CLIMATE CHANGE AND THE COSTS TO.
                           NATIONAL SECURITY

                              ----------                              


                        WEDNESDAY, MAY 15, 2024

                                           Committee on the Budget,
                                                       U.S. Senate,
                                                    Washington, DC.
    The hearing was convened, pursuant to notice, at 10:01 
a.m., in the Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Sheldon 
Whitehouse, Chairman of the Committee, presiding.
    Present: Senators Whitehouse, Warner, Kaine, Van Hollen, 
Lujan, Padilla, Grassley, Johnson, Braun, and R. Scott.
    Also present: Democratic staff: Dan Dudis, Majority Staff 
Director; Ethan Rosenkranz, Senior Budget Analyst for National 
Defense.
    Republican staff: Chris Conlin, Deputy Staff Director; 
Krisann Pearce, General Counsel; Erich Hartman, Director of 
Budget Policy and Review; Jordan Pakula, Professional Staff 
Member; Ryan Flynn, Budget Analyst.
    Witnesses:
    The Honorable Dennis V. McGinn, VADM USN Ret., Former 
Assistant Secretary of the Navy for Energy, Installations, and 
Environment, and Former Deputy Chief of Naval Operations for 
Warfare Requirements and Programs
    The Honorable Tim Gallaudet, Ph.D., RDML USN Ret., Former 
Oceanographer of the Navy, and Former Assistant Secretary of 
Commerce for Oceans and Atmosphere
    Ms. Erin Sikorsky, Director, The Center for Climate and 
Security, and The International Military Council on Climate and 
Security
    Mr. Rick Dwyer, Executive Director, Hampton Roads Military 
and Federal Facilities Alliance
    Ms. Mackenzie Eaglen, Senior Fellow, American Enterprise 
Institute

          OPENING STATEMENT OF CHAIRMAN WHITEHOUSE \1\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

    \1\ Prepared statement of Chairman Whitehouse appears in the 
appendix on page 34.
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    Chairman Whitehouse. This hearing of the Budget Committee 
will come to order, and I thank our witnesses for being here. 
One of whom will be introduced by Senator Kaine, who is here to 
welcome someone to speak about an important issue in his state 
of Virginia.
    As we examine the looming economic and budgetary dangers of 
climate change today, we will learn about the strain it's 
placing on our defense operations and our national security. 
Climate change is a well-known catalyst of conflict and also 
threatens our military's infrastructure and operational 
readiness and all of that comes at significant costs.
    According to a recent Bloomberg analysis, ``rising tides 
and powerful storms turbo charged by climate change are poised 
to hobble federal facilities worth at least $387 billion in 
coming decades, disrupting everything from veterans' medical 
care to military operations and space exploration.'' The vast 
majority of these costs are related directly to military 
infrastructure. For over a decade the Government Accountability 
Office has identified climate change as a high-risk area for 
the Department of Defense and has highlighted billions of 
dollars in annual damage to our military installations.
    For instance, in a congressional hearing this month, the 
Air Force testified that rebuilding U.S. facilities in Guam 
damaged by Typhoon Mawar will cost $10 billion alone. That's 
twice what the Department of Defense spent rebuilding Tyndall 
and Offutt Air Force Bases in Florida and Nebraska, both also 
devastated by climate change related weather events. Around the 
world, nearly half of America's military installations are 
facing threats from rising sea levels and increased flooding 
with serious damage becoming increasingly frequent.
    Naval Station Norfolk, the world's largest naval base, is 
particularly vulnerable. In Hamptons Roads persistent flooding, 
even on bright, sunny days, disrupts operations and requires 
extensive and costly adaptation efforts. A former base 
commander estimated that Norfolk's useful life as a naval base 
could end in as little as 20 years, and he said that in 2015, 
so do the math.
    In Rhode Island, our Air National Guard 143rd Airlift Wing 
operates out of a high-risk coastal flood area, threatening its 
ability to deploy to protect life, property, and safety. Much 
of the neighboring Electric Boat submarine manufacturing 
facility, producing Columbia class submarines, the Pentagon's 
top acquisition priority, also sits in the high-risk coastal 
flood area, vulnerable to storm surge and extreme weather.
    Across Narragansett Bay, the United States Naval War 
College and Naval Station Newport, share causeways, which I've 
seen cut off by increasingly heavy rainstorms, New England's 
climate telltale.
    In short, repairing, rebuilding, and maintaining our 
defense infrastructure, the foundation of our national 
security, is becoming ever more costly in a world shaped by 
climate upheaval. Climate change is a source of geopolitical 
tensions; hence, its acknowledgment as a catalyst of conflict. 
Around the world, climate change is destabilizing entire 
regions, stoking conflicts over increasingly scarce resources, 
driving impoverishment and migration, and creating new tensions 
in geopolitical sensitive areas.
    In the Arctic, melting ice is opened new sea routes, 
creating new security threats from Russia and China that 
require increased U.S. military and Coast Guard presence. Far 
away in low-lying Bangladesh, sea level rise and extreme 
weather could cause mass migration, perhaps 13 million people 
toward and into India.
    On the other end of India, in Kasmir, tensions between a 
nuclear armed India and a nuclear armed Pakistan will worsen as 
Himalayan glaciers disappear and disputes intensify over water 
resources and border management. It is widely accepted that 
climate-driven drought contributed to the ongoing conflict in 
Syria, fueling regional political instability. In Guatemala, 
Honduras, and El Salvador disrupted agriculture and worsened 
food and water insecurity has brought climate destabilization 
to our own borders.
    In the coming decades, climate change could drive climate 
migration of up to 200 million people worldwide, all making the 
world more dangerous. In that more dangerous world, military 
operations will be made more difficult and dangerous, as 
soldiers, sailors, airmen, and marines have to work in 
unprecedented conditions, often testing the limits of human 
physical endurance.
    Already air operations are affected by midday surface heat 
on airbase runways. As many national security experts have 
recognized, climate change is causing environmental damage that 
affects global stability, our national safety, and our long-
term fiscal health. And all that comes home to roost in 
America's budget. If you don't believe me, just read the 
Pentagon's and Intelligence Community's own reports.
    And on the subject of believing reports, let me close by 
asking unanimous consent that certain reports be put into the 
record that confirm concerns that have been raised here in the 
Budget Committee in earlier hearings with regard to insurance 
cost, inflation, and contagion of the insurance crisis beyond 
Florida, a May 14, 2024, New York Times article with respect to 
coastal flooding risks, an April 29, 2024 Washington Post 
article, with respect to the dangers to agriculture, a March 
27, 2024 New York Times article, and with respect to the 
dangers we have repeatedly raised of systemic economic shocks 
to the American economy and even to the global economy, the 
Economist article of April 11, 2024, and the National Bureau of 
Economic Research (NBER) working paper of May 2024, Macro 
Economic Impacts of Climate Change: Global Versus Local 
Temperature, which says that a 1 degree centigrade increase in 
global temperature will lead to a 12 percent decline in world 
Gross Domestic Products (GDP) and suggests that the harm from 
carbon emissions amounts to over a $1,000 of harm per emitted 
ton.
    Without objection, those will be admitted to the record. 
And I turn now to my distinguished Ranking Member, Senator 
Grassley.

           OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR GRASSLEY \2\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

    \2\ Prepared statement of Senator Grassley appears in the appendix 
on page 36.
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    Senator Grassley. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This is our 
Committee's 17th hearing on climate change this Congress with 
the first with the national security angle and everybody knows 
that national security is a number one responsibility of the 
federal government under our Constitution, so it's appropriate 
that we consider national security.
    I agree that climate change presents some national security 
related challenges and the Chairman laid out a long list of 
those. However, those challenges pale in comparison to the 
national security risk associated with our ballooning national 
debt. As Admiral Michael Mullin, then Chairman of the Joints 
Chiefs of Staff, said in 2010, ``The most significant threat to 
our national security is our debt.'' And that when public debt 
was nine trillion dollars compared to today's 27 trillion, so 
it's three times bigger at this point.
    Our unsustainable national debt threatens our status as an 
economic superpower, and in turn, our ability to respond to 
national threats. We're already set to see interest payments on 
the national debt surpass defense outlays this year. That's the 
kind of result you get when spending follows a modern monetary 
theory approach to spending and government borrowing.
    Throughout history, fiscal recklessness and economic 
mismanagement have led to decline of great powers. Left 
unchecked, excessive red ink will sap away our military 
superiority and our capacity for global leadership. This would 
be a tragedy, not only for Americans, but for the entire world 
from the standpoint of a lot of our friends relying upon us for 
leadership and for our possible enemies not seeing us as the 
threat that we hope they would to avoid any conflagration.
    We've seen from the disastrous results of the Obama 
Administration's lead from behind strategy that America's 
weakness only invites global instability. That doesn't mean 
that I'm willing to give the Defense Department a blank check, 
far from it. If anybody's followed my history in the United 
States Senate and oversight of wasteful spending in the 
Pentagon, they would recognize the $450 hammers and the $10,000 
toilet seats. And for years, I pushed Department of Defense 
(DOD) to make progress on getting a clean audit, just like 
every other federal department and to this very day the DOD is 
the only department that has never had a certified audit.
    Every dollar squandered by the Pentagon is a dollar that's 
not going towards keeping the country safe. That's something we 
can't afford at a time of rising threats. Providing for the 
common defense is one of the federal government's top 
constitutional responsibilities, so I say that a second time to 
remind people what we should be doing here in this Congress as 
our highest priority.
    As I've said in previous hearings, climate change is a 
serious issue. And as I referenced earlier, it has some 
implications for national security in the Pentagon budget. For 
example, melting sea ice means new shipping lanes and 
accessible resources in the Arctic. China and Russia are 
already aggressively staking out their claims in that area. 
This is a legitimate challenge, and the congressional 
committees of jurisdiction are giving it due attention.
    But let's be clear-eyed about our priorities. Climate 
change is hardly one of the most important challenges that the 
Defense Department ought to focus its attention on. The Biden 
Administration's obsession with reducing the Military's carbon 
footprint actually distracts from the Armed Forces' real 
mission of deterring and defeating our enemies.
    The Administration's rush to transition to an electric 
vehicle fleet appears to be driven more by political postering 
rather than military strategy. So, you've got to think good 
luck finding a charging station in the middle of some foreign 
battlefield. Similarly, far-left climate policy jeopardizes our 
economy, and our energy security while undermining our national 
security.
    Many European countries learned this lesson the hard way 
after Russia invaded Ukraine February '22, two years ago, and 
those European countries are reversing course on some of these 
climate change issues. Now, Europe is working overtime to 
increase their capacity to import more liquefied natural gas 
from the United States since they don't get it from Russia 
anymore.
    This may be the Committee's only hearing on the defense 
budget this Congress, so I hope we can take off the climate 
change blinders and discuss some other national security 
issues. Climate change didn't cause a rising and aggressive 
China, it didn't convince Putin to invade Ukraine, and it 
didn't instigate Hamas's brutal terrorist attack on the Israeli 
people.
    I look forward to hearing from our witnesses where they 
think climate change ranks against some other more pressing 
national security challenges. I welcome all of today's 
witnesses and I especially want to thank Admiral McGinn and 
Admiral Gallaudet, and Mr. Dwyer, for your services to our 
country. Thank you.
    Chairman Whitehouse. Thank you very much. I was actually 
glad that you mentioned Mike Mullin's statement because it was 
one I often referred to as we were working on the Affordable 
Care Act because the next step is healthcare costs was what was 
driving the debt and deficit that he was worried about and we 
were trying to tangle with that, so I appreciate very much the 
good conversations we've had about working together on the 
healthcare expense problems that are driving our deficit.
    I think climate economic shock and revenue reduction, 
particularly from the corporate sector, which used to do more 
than 20 percent of national revenues is now down to 6 percent 
and less is also an important part of the equation. And with 
any luck, we can pull a full equation together to solve the 
problem that you've identified.
    Now, to our witnesses, Admiral Dennis McGinn is a strategic 
leadership advisor focused on the intersection of energy, 
environment, and national security. He served as Assistant 
Secretary of the Navy for Energy Installations and Environment 
from September 2013 until January 2017, leading the 
transformation of naval installations toward greater mission 
resiliency.
    Admiral McGinn was active duty in the United States Navy 
for 35 years as a naval aviator, test pilot, and national 
security strategist. He led the development of future Navy 
capabilities as Deputy Chief of Naval Operations for Warfare 
Requirements and commanded the United States Third Fleet in the 
Pacific.
    He presently serves as a Trustee for Rocky Mountain 
Institute (RMI), as a director of Willdan Group, and served as 
a director for the Electric Power Research Institute for more 
than six years.
    Erin Sikorsky directs the Center for Climate and Security, 
a nonpartisan, nonprofit research institute of the Council on 
Strategic Risks. Ms. Sikorsky also serves on the Secretary of 
the Interior's Advisory Council for Climate Adaptation Science 
as a consultant for the Defense Science Board, and as an 
adjunct professor at George Mason University. She previously 
led climate and environment analysis across the U.S. 
Intelligence Community from her position on the National 
Intelligence Council, where she was the founding chair of the 
Climate Security Advisory Council, a congressionally mandated 
group designed to facilitate coordination between the 
Intelligence Community and U.S. Government scientific agencies.
    Rick Dwyer is next, and we will trade up for introductions 
to have him introduced by his home state senator, Senator 
Kaine.
    Senator Kaine. Thank you, Chairman Whitehouse, and to my 
colleagues and those attending, it is a pleasure to have Rick 
Dwyer here today. He's the Executive Director of the Hampton 
Roads Military and Federal Facilities Alliance (HRMFFA). That's 
such a mouthful that we just shorten it and call it HRMFFA, 
which is one of my favorite acronyms, HRMFFA.
    HRMFFA is a unique public/private partnership dedicated to 
supporting the many military and federal facilities in the 
Hampton Roads region of southeastern Virginia. This is our 
second largest metropolitan area in Virginia, after the D.C./
Metro Area.
    The Alliance is governed by a board of directors that is 
comprised of 16 public sector directors and 14 private sector 
directors. And just to give you an idea of the span that HRMFFA 
reaches, representatives are from the cities of Chesapeake, 
Franklin, Hampton, Newport News, Norfolk, Poquoson, Portsmouth, 
Suffolk, Virginia Beach, and Williamsburg, and the counties of 
Gloucester, Iowa, James City, Southampton, Surrey, and York.
    Before joining the Alliance in 2016, Rick served over 20 
years on active duty as an Air Force civil engineer officer. He 
commanded three civil engineer squadrons deployed multiple 
times to Afghanistan and Southwest Asia. And I've had the 
pleasure of working with the Alliance since I came to the 
Senate, and with Rick directly for many years where we worked 
together to support the Hampton Roads area across many policy 
areas, including the National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA), 
support for shipyards, national labs, military families, and 
mental health of service members.
    Rick took over as the Executive Director of HRMFFA from 
Rear Admiral Craig Quigley, who many of you know, and those 
were big shoes to fill, but Rick has done a really good job in 
this very important, but very complicated region in dealing 
with a variety of national security challenges, including the 
one that we'll discuss today. Thank you.
    Chairman Whitehouse. HRMFFA, Mr. Dwyer. Okay.
    Rear Admiral Tim Gallaudet is the CEO of Ocean STL 
Consulting where he's a strategic advisor for a variety of 
startups, nonprofits, and research institutions. We previously 
worked together when Admiral Gallaudet served as the Acting and 
Deputy Administrator of National Oceanic and Atmospheric 
Administration (NOAA) and the Acting Undersecretary and 
Assistant Secretary of Commerce for Oceans and Atmosphere.
    Before NOAA, the Admiral served for 32 years in the U.S. 
Navy, retiring as the Oceanographer of the Navy and Director of 
the Navy's Taskforce on Climate Change.
    Mackenzie Eaglen is a Senior Fellow at the American 
Enterprise Institute where she works on defense strategy, 
defense budgets, and military readiness. Ms. Eaglen is also one 
of the 12-member U.S. Army War College Board of Visitors and 
serves on the U.S. Army Science Board. In 2023, she became a 
member of the Commission on the Future of the Navy established 
by Congress to study the strategy budget and policies 
concerning the future strength of the U.S. Navy fleet.
    Before joining American Enterprise Institute (AEI), Ms. 
Eaglen worked on defense issues in the House of 
Representatives, in the U.S. Senate, and at the Pentagon in the 
Office of the Secretary of Defense and on the Joint Staff.
    With that, let me turn the hearing over to Admiral McGinn, 
and each of you has five minutes to make an opening statement. 
Your full testimony will be made a part of the record of this 
hearing. Admiral McGinn, to you, sir.

  STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE DENNIS V. McGINN, VADM USN RET., 
      FORMER ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF THE NAVY FOR ENERGY, 
  INSTALLATIONS, AND ENVIRONMENT, AND FORMER DEPUTY CHIEF OF 
   NAVAL OPERATIONS FOR WARFARE REQUIREMENTS AND PROGRAMS \3\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

    \3\ Prepared statement of Hon. McGinn appears in the appendix on 
page 39.
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    Honorable McGinn. Thank you, Chairman Whitehouse and 
Ranking Member Grassley, members of the Committee for the 
opportunity to testify today on the critical impact of climate 
change on our national security.
    My views are based on more than 35 years of active-duty 
service in the United States Navy. As former Assistant 
Secretary of the Navy for Energy, Installations, and 
Environment, and as a business executive in the private sector 
focusing on the security challenges of climate change related 
to our energy portfolio, economy, and our environment.
    To begin, I can strongly state that climate change is a 
significant and growing national security budget challenge. 
Business as usual is not a viable or attractive option. It is 
in our immediate and long-term interest to prioritize and 
allocate sufficient resources to adequately address both 
mitigation and adaptation.
    Hearkening back to my days as a fighter pilot, we used the 
term ``a bogey rich environment,'' when you're surrounded by 
threats and clearly the United States is in a bogey rich 
environment. No matter which way we turn it seems--Senator 
Grassley pointed out many of those--there seems to be another 
challenge. But we need to continue to address all of those 
bogies in an appropriate way. And I think that the focus of 
today's discussion on climate change is very, very appropriate 
and clearly has tremendous implications for our large and 
growing national debt as well if it's left unchecked.
    Immediate attention to those climate threats and other 
global challenges goes beyond traditional national security 
priorities; however, it must be aligned and integrated with 
them. China's posture in Asia and around the world, for 
example, is informed by growing environmental degradation, 
water scarcity, and food insecurity. Chinese leadership has set 
priorities and made economic choices to invest in renewable 
energy and electric vehicles because they see the direction the 
world is going and the opportunity it presents.
    Similarly, Russia's posture, especially in the Arctic is 
inextricably linked to the receding ice and increased access to 
resources in that region. The Russians see both opportunity and 
threats across their vast northern frontier. In the past, 
Congress has explicitly acknowledged the security impacts of 
climate change as a direct threat to U.S. national security. 
The pragmatic, bipartisan approach Congress has taken needs to 
be broadened to include the significant economic and budgetary 
implications that climate change brings.
    For example, the growing benefits of the bipartisan 
infrastructure bill and the Inflation Reduction Act will not 
only help to meet the climate challenge, but will also create 
significant economic, health, and security opportunities.
    In the Department of Defense, there's been a serious 
recognition, as pointed out by the Chairman, of the threat. 
Recognition that climate change will continue to drive 
instability around the world, recognition that the opening 
Arctic will create new dimensions in great power competition, 
recognition that extreme weather events will create readiness 
challenges, humanitarian crises, and stressful conditions in 
which our military will have to operate.
    Climate change is different, however, from traditional 
military threats. It isn't defined by a specific enemy, 
timeline, or geographical area. However, the adverse effects of 
climate change, including typhoons, flooding, wildfires, 
drought, disease, crop failure, and migration of large 
populations, including here in our own hemisphere, create more 
frequent, intense, and widespread natural and humanitarian 
disasters.
    These events magnify existing geopolitical tensions in 
critical regions, overwhelming fragile political, economic, and 
social structures causing them, in many cases, to fail.
    The Center on Naval Analyses (CNA) Military Advisory Board 
17 years ago in 2007 reported national security and the threat 
of climate change served as a threat multiplier in critical 
regions of national interests around the world.
    Ten years ago this month the same Military Advisory Board 
updated report National Security and the Accelerating Risks of 
Climate Change defined it as a ``catalyst for instability and 
conflict.'' The objective analysis and cumulative military 
wisdom evident in these reports clearly warn about more 
frequent and demanding missions for our men and women in 
uniform, both here at home and abroad. The clear message: 
climate readiness is mission readiness.
    In summary, the military has understood for many years the 
threats to operational missions and installation infrastructure 
that climate change poses. Consequently, the Department of 
Defense has significantly elevated its program priority and 
started to increase the resources allocated to meet this 
challenge. In order to fully ensure that our essential national 
security capabilities continue to be strong and resilient in 
the face of the climate challenges ahead, DOD needs your 
continuing focus on this growing threat and unwavering 
budgetary support.
    Working together we can create a better future in which 
American national security is stronger, more sustainable, and 
in which we can turn climate challenges into actual 
opportunity. Thank you, Senators, and I look forward to your 
questions.
    Chairman Whitehouse. Thank you, Admiral. Now, to you, 
Director Sikorsky.

 STATEMENT OF ERIN SIKORSKY, DIRECTOR, CENTER FOR CLIMATE AND 
 SECURITY, DIRECTOR, INTERNATIONAL MILITARY COUNCIL ON CLIMATE 
AND SECURITY, FORMER DEPUTY DIRECTOR, STRATEGIC FUTURES GROUP, 
 U.S. NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE COUNCIL, MEMBER OF MUNICH SECURITY 
             CONFERENCE FOOD SECURITY TASKFORCE \4\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

    \4\ Prepared statement of Ms. Sikorsky appears in the appendix on 
page 48.
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    Ms. Sikorsky. Chairman Whitehouse, Ranking Member Grassley, 
and distinguished members of the Committee, thanks for the 
opportunity to testify before you today. As a Wisconsin native, 
Senator Johnson, it's nice to see you in this room as well.
    My remarks are informed by my position as the Director of 
Center for Climate and Security, but also the many years that I 
served as a senior analyst in the U.S. Intelligence Community, 
including on the U.S. National Intelligence Council. I'm going 
to talk about both the direct and indirect security risks posed 
by climate change.
    As climate-driven hazards grow more frequent and intense, 
we're seeing militaries regularly on the frontlines of 
response. In the past 22 months, the Center for Climate and 
Security's Military Response to Climate Hazards Tracker, or 
MiRCH, not quite as good of an acronym, has identified nearly 
300 deployments by militaries in 74 countries to fight fires, 
rescue citizens from floods, deliver water, or participate in 
other hazard-related activities.
    Here in the U.S., troops have deployed 70 times since June 
2022. And of course, the U.S. military has also responded 
globally during that time period, supporting response efforts 
in Pakistan, the Philippines, Libya, and Canada. This demand is 
almost certain to grow as temperatures rise. Climate risks 
also, though, impact U.S. competitors and adversaries' 
security.
    Open source analysis of 34 Russian airfields in the Arctic 
found evidence of damage likely due to permafrost thaw at 27 of 
them, including some facilities that were beyond repair. 
Turning east, a paper I wrote on China's own climate security 
vulnerabilities identified that country's coastal shipyards and 
artificial islands as increasingly vulnerable to sea level rise 
and extreme precipitation.
    Moving onto indirect risks, as an Intelligence Officer, I 
spent years analyzing threats of terrorism and insurgency in 
the Middle East and Africa. And while I was doing that, I 
regularly saw climate-related hazards such as drought, extreme 
precipitation, and heatwaves contribute to food and water 
insecurity.
    I watched such dynamics strain governments and provide 
terrorists and insurgent groups opportunities to gain a 
foothold among vulnerable populations and countries of key 
national security concern for the United States. Climate-driven 
food and water insecurity also contribute to irregular 
migration. Take Central America, which was a region identified 
as a key area of concern by the U.S. Intelligence Community in 
the National Intelligence Estimate mentioned by Senator 
Whitehouse earlier.
    Research shows that drier than normal periods in the region 
are associated with increased emigration to the U.S. Climate 
models, of course, project that Central America is a global 
hotspot for future decreases in precipitation or more drought, 
due to climate change.
    The good news is, and I think relevant for the Budget 
Committee, is this is a problem the U.S. can get ahead of by 
investing in upstream adaptation and resilience programs aimed 
at addressing food insecurity and climate hazards. In Honduras, 
for example, people who received United States Agency for 
International Development (USAID) agricultural investments in 
recent years reported an intention to migrate that was 78 
percent lower than the country overall.
    I'd like to end by turning again to the Indo Pacific where 
the U.S.'s global network of allies and partners is one of its 
primary comparative advantages in competition with China. More 
and more, the number one issue facing many of those partners is 
climate change. In 2022, the defense minister from Fiji said, 
``in our blue Pacific continent machine guns, fighter jets, 
grey ships, and green battalions are not our primary security 
concern. The single greatest threat to our very existence is 
climate change.''
    And similarly, there's a survey in 2024 of Association of 
Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN) Member nations about their 
greatest challenges in the region. The threat of climate change 
outranked the threat for military tensions by more than 10 
points. Given these dynamics, competing with China in investing 
in climate resilience for U.S. allies and partners are not 
contradictory goals, right? It's not one or the other. In fact, 
they're complementary.
    Retired Admiral Sam Locklear and I wrote an Op-ed last year 
that noted helping allies and partners manage climate risks not 
only shows them that the U.S. is attentive to their needs, it 
can also build their resilience so they're available when the 
U.S. needs them. It's a win/win. We pointed to Papua, New 
Guinea as one example, a target of intense Chinese attention in 
recent years. Papua New Guinea faces high risks of climate-
driven sea level rise, strengthened typhoons and a lack of 
fresh water.
    In June 2023, the U.S. signed a new security pact with the 
country, getting access to develop and operate out of Papua New 
Guinea (PNG) bases. But to sustain this presence, the U.S. is 
going to need reliable energy sources, clean, fresh water, and 
economically vibrant, healthy local population. For this 
reason, investments in climate resilience and adaptation in 
such a country are investments in U.S. national security and 
need to be prioritized.
    In closing, for many years now Congress has shown 
bipartisan leadership toward addressing the security risks of 
climate change I've discussed today, as Admiral McGinn noted. 
As climate hazards intensify in the coming decades, continued 
congressional leadership will be critical to ensure the U.S. 
makes the investments needed to manage the security risks of a 
warming world. Thank you.
    Chairman Whitehouse. Thank you very much, and thank you for 
mentioning Admiral Locklear, who's been a very helpful voice on 
this. The Ranking Member referenced Admiral Mullin. I think 
it's not for nothing that it's admirals who are particularly 
focused on all of this because Navy bases are a particular 
risk, which brings us to Mr. Dwyer. Please proceed.

 STATEMENT OF RICHARD DWYER, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, HAMPTON ROADS 
          MILITARY AND FEDERAL FACILITIES ALLIANCE \5\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

    \5\ Prepared statement of Mr. Dwyer appears in the appendix on page 
91.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Mr. Dwyer. Thank you, sir. And thank you, Senator Kaine, 
for that introduction and explaining our HRMFFA acronym to 
everybody else here. Chairman Whitehouse, Ranking Member 
Grassley, and members of the Committee, thank you for the 
opportunity to testify about the impacts of climate change on 
our national security from a defense community perspective.
    Our organization represents the 16 local governments and 
our private sector partners in southeastern Virginia. This is 
an extremely important issue that our region has been tackling 
for many years. It will take a continued close partnership 
between federal partners and state and local entities to ensure 
the impacts of climate change are effectively mitigated to 
avoid harming national security.
    Hampton Roads is home to the largest concentration of 
military installations and personnel in the country. Our region 
has been an integral part of the military since the birth of 
our nation and the strategic value of Hampton Roads was 
recognized even before our independence. Norfolk Naval Shipyard 
is the largest and oldest of the four Navy-owned shipyards and 
was established in 1767 by the British.
    Naval Station Norfolk is the largest Navy base in the world 
and home port to our East Coast-based aircraft carriers. The 
area boast significant air power with the Navy's east coast 
master jet base at Naval Air Station (NAS) Oceania and Joint 
Base Langley-Eustis, which is home to over 40 percent of the 
Air Force's F-22s and Air Combat Command. Fort Eustis is home 
to the Army's Navy, from which units recently deployed to build 
the floating pier off the coast of Gaza. And Joint 
Expeditionary Base Little Creek-Fort Story is the East Coast 
hub of the Navy SEALs.
    There are more Coast Guard personnel stationed in our 
region than anywhere else in the country. We also host the 
largest concentration of private sector naval ship repair 
capability, as well as the only builder of aircraft carriers 
and one of only two builders of submarines. Needless to say, 
supporting the military is part of who we are as a region.
    Hampton Roads sits at the confluence of the Chesapeake Bay, 
James, and York Rivers, which makes it susceptible to rising 
sea levels. We have seen impacts from climate change for a 
number of years now. For example, workers at the Norfolk Naval 
Shipyard sometimes must be sent home early due to potential 
roadway flooding on and off the installation, which has a very 
tangible impact on timeliness and cost of ship repairs.
    Normal access to parts of some bases can also be cut off 
from heavy rain flooding and storm surge events. These issues 
have spurred us to work with our military partners to make our 
region and installations more resilient. The first Office of 
Local Defense Community Cooperation Joint Land Use in the 
country focused solely on sea level rise and persistent 
flooding happened between Langley Air Force Base and the City 
of Hampton in 2018.
    Two additional studies with the Navy and Virginia Beach and 
Norfolk and then Chesapeake and Portsmouth followed soon 
thereafter. These projects and issues identified during the 
collaborative efforts provide roadmaps for our installations 
and communities to work together to make both entities more 
resilient.
    However, the challenges of climate change are not limited 
to the Hampton Roads area. The FY '18 NDAA required DOD to 
provide a list of installations that were impacted by climate 
change. Of the 79 priority installations examined, over two-
thirds were impacted by climate-related events. And when other 
threats are included, there is no single military installation 
in the country that is immune from the impacts of climate 
change or natural disasters.
    The rising awareness of climate change impacts on military 
bases has led to the development of authorities and resources 
to mitigate these issues, such as the Defense Community 
Infrastructure Program, the Energy Resilience and Conservation 
Investment Program, and the Installation Resilience Program. 
These tools will help leverage existing military construction 
and Operations and Maintenance (O&M) funds to address 
resiliency on military installations. However, the key to 
success of these programs is continuous cooperation between 
local stakeholders and the military.
    Fixes to a base alone won't solve the problem. Given 70 to 
80 percent of our military members live in the surrounding 
community, it doesn't do much good to make an installation 
resilient if personnel can't get there to perform the mission. 
We applaud that Congress understands this dynamic and has 
enabled a number of authorities that encourage this type of 
partnership, but the resources provided to these programs are 
simply not enough to keep up with the demand and impact of 
climate change on military installations.
    There are also policy challenges to overcome. One noted 
example is that the Army Corps of Engineers is not allowed to 
include federal properties when conducting civil works funded 
coastal resiliency studies. This problem became evident when 
the Corps' 2019 study of Norfolk did not include the world's 
largest Navy base, leaving a vital national security asset 
unprotected. Obtaining a cost share from one other federal 
agency is hard enough, but imagine trying to coordinate funding 
from seven different federal agencies for a pending coastal 
study on the peninsula of Hampton Roads.
    We greatly appreciate the Senate addressing this issue in 
the 2022 Water Resources Development Act (WRDA), but 
unfortunately, the Senate language was not included in the 
final bill. But Congress has a chance to remedy this policy 
issue in this year's WRDA legislation. We appreciate that the 
Committee is looking into this matter with greater oversight.
    We believe there are two main areas where Congress could 
help address the challenges posed by climate change to our 
bases. First, increasing resources for existing infrastructure 
and resiliency programs that help DOD and communities address 
climate change. And second, fixing policy challenges such as 
the Civil Works authority prohibiting inclusion of federal 
properties in resiliency studies.
    Solutions to the impacts of climate change on our military 
bases must take a comprehensive approach as flood waters and 
other threats don't care about fence lines or jurisdictional 
boundaries. That can only be done when Congress provides 
authorities that direct such collaboration from federal 
partners as well as require local input.
    The challenges posed by climate change to our national 
defense are real and daunting. Congress has taken positive 
steps in providing authorities and resources, but more is 
needed.
    I thank you for the opportunity to discuss the Hampton 
Roads region's work with our military partners and appreciate 
your consideration of our recommendations. I look forward to 
answering your questions. Thank you.
    Chairman Whitehouse. Thanks very much, Mr. Dwyer. Admiral 
Gallaudet.

STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE TIM GALLAUDET, PH.D., RDML USN RET., 
    FORMER OCEANOGRAPHER OF THE NAVY, AND FORMER ASSISTANT 
      SECRETARY OF COMMERCE FOR OCEANS AND ATMOSPHERE \6\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

    \6\ Prepared statement of Hon. Gallaudet appears in the appendix on 
page 43.
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    Honorable Gallaudet. Chairman Whitehouse, Ranking Member 
Grassley, and members of the Committee, thank you for the 
opportunity to testify today regarding climate change and 
national security.
    Having been in charge of NOAA, America's top climate 
science agency and having led the U.S. Navy's Taskforce in 
Climate Change, I agree that climate change is, indeed, an 
important topic. When it comes to national security, certain 
changes to the planet's climate are concerning and my fellow 
witnesses have addressed this.
    However, I find it unfortunate that the approach to climate 
change by the Department of Defense under the Biden 
Administration is deeply flawed. Consider the 2022 national 
security strategy which claims that climate change is the 
existential challenge of our time. This is an unfounded claim. 
It assumes that we know with certainty that a global scale, 
life-threatening change will occur and our species will be 
unable to adapt to that change.
    Both points are problematic. For one, climate projections 
are rife with uncertainty. And secondly, our species has proved 
to be quite resilient through significant climatic changes in 
the past. Thirdly, a majority, if not all of the scientific 
literature pointing to disastrous outcomes for humanity due to 
climate change employ implausible emission scenarios. Even the 
Administration's Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) has 
adopted a more realistic scenario recently where global 
emissions begin to decrease mid-century.
    Personally, I view Russia's intention to developing an 
indiscriminate nuclear weapon in space as a potential 
existential threat or perhaps an asteroid impact on the planet, 
which the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) 
is preparing for because we know an extinction event was caused 
by one in the past. The cost imposing security threats we 
should be talking about here are obvious. Russia's war on 
Ukraine, the war between Israel and Hamas supported by a 
nuclear aspiring Iran, strikes by Iranian proxies on global 
shipping and U.S. assets in the Middle East, and China's Navy 
eclipsing that of the U.S. to become the world's largest with 
its sights set on taking Taiwan in the near future. None of 
these were generated by or made significantly worse by climate 
change.
    Another failing of the DOD's approach regards the DOD's 
climate risk analysis released in 2021. The disquieting aspect 
of this document is the complete absence of citations of peer-
reviewed scientific research regarding the climate trends it 
identifies. In fact, the climate risk analysis presents no 
actual analysis at all. Instead it simply inserts a range of 
security implications resulting from climate change.
    The problem with these assertions is they are too vague to 
make sound investment decisions and they lack the analytical 
rigor required by standard defense risk analyses. In some 
cases, they're flat out wrong. For example in, the forward to 
the DOD Climate Risk Analysis, Secretary Austin states that 
typhoons are occurring at an unprecedented scale. Not a single 
scientific study supports that statement. In fact, the 
frequency of major hurricanes and typhoons have seen no upward 
or downward change over the past four decades.
    A final fault in the DOD's approach is its emphasis on 
greenhouse gas emissions. The Department of the Navy has 
prioritized mitigating climate change by establishing targets 
for reducing emissions and the Army has done the same. Reaching 
such targets will have a near zero impact on net global 
emissions, warming, and climate change.
    The DOD was responsible for only 1 percent of the five 
billion metric tons of U.S. CO2 emissions in 2021. This pales 
in comparison to China's, which was 10 billion metric tons. So, 
the Navy's objective to reduce emissions is a dangerous 
distraction for this need to deter the security threats I 
mentioned previously.
    But I do not mean to dismiss the good work the Department 
is doing to adapt to climate change. For example, I strongly 
support the first line of effort in the DOD Climate Adaption 
Plan, climate informed decision-making. I would even say that 
DOD needs to invest more in this area.
    The most effective way to prepare for climate change is to 
improve short-term, sub-seasonal, and seasonal forecast for 
weather, water, and ice. This can be accomplished by expanding 
the network of environmental observation systems, including 
satellites, buoys, ships, and drones, as well as improving the 
numerical models used to predict the state of physical 
environment.
    Such improvements do not require significant growth in the 
Pentagon's budget. As NASA has done with SpaceX, the DOD can 
accelerate its climate readiness by partnering with the private 
sector where a variety of innovative startups are providing the 
tools that help the U.S. military prevail in any operational 
environment.
    I close with a development which is more germane to the 
Committee on the Budget. This year federal spending for 
interest on our national debt is forecast to hit $870 billion, 
exceeding the DOD budget for the first time. Combined with 
inflation, such a dramatic drop in the Pentagon's purchasing 
power is perhaps a greater threat to our national security than 
climate change.
    I recommend the Committee hold future hearings on topics 
which focus on our increasingly unsustainable fiscal situation. 
Thank you for inviting me to testify. I look forward to your 
questions.
    Chairman Whitehouse. Thank you very much and next is Ms. 
Eaglen.

    STATEMENT OF MACKENZIE EAGLEN, SENIOR FELLOW, AMERICAN 
                    ENTERPRISE INSTITUTE \7\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

    \7\ Prepared statement of Ms. Eaglen appears in the appendix on 
page 102.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Ms. Eaglen. Thank you, Chairman Whitehouse. Thank you, 
Ranking Member Grassley. It's a pleasure to be here to talk to 
you this morning about this important topic.
    Climate change is an important, but shared concern by 
individuals, companies, and businesses, and governments around 
the world. Should it be needed, however, using violence in the 
name of the state is uniquely and exclusively the 
responsibility of the federal government. The world as it is 
today shows us that the peace does not keep itself. An ounce of 
deterrence is worth much more than a pound of war. So, while 
the military budget is large for peacetime, it's a relative 
bargain should we wind up in direct conflict.
    Two wars of our partners and allies in the Middle East and 
in Europe, trying to maintain open sea lanes and commercial 
shipping in Bab-el-Mandeb Strait, and preventing an outbreak 
right now this very minute in Scarborough requires global 
military with power projection and reach across three theaters 
of Eurasia and the Middle East.
    As has already been noted this morning by Ranking Member 
Grassley, and my colleagues, the defense budget is matched this 
year by interest payments on the debt and defense is declining 
across any lens to which you look at it. In real terms, as a 
percentage of the federal budget and as a percentage of the 
United States economy and what we can afford, in fact, defense 
is now smaller than non-defense discretionary spending in the 
federal budget.
    Meanwhile, the Chinese Communist Party has seen 30 straight 
years of defense budget increases. Their average annual 
increase for their defense budget is 9 percent versus our 1. Of 
course, that's typically below inflation. These are all still 
inputs, however. The outputs of these investments are what 
matters. Bolstering our conventional and strategic deterrents 
to prevent war and allow prosperity for the American people is 
the mission of our Armed Forces.
    They are spread thin and requires sustained commitment. 
Thank you for the opportunity to be here. I look forward to 
your questions.
    Chairman Whitehouse. Thank you very much. We seem to have 
agreement that the major areas of concern relate to climate 
effects on military infrastructure, climate effects on military 
operations, and climate effects producing the kind of conflicts 
to which the military will have to respond. Is that pretty fair 
summary of the problem set here, Admiral McGinn?
    Honorable McGinn. It is, Mr. Chairman. I would add, 
however, we have not delved into what the military can and 
should be and is doing to reduce greenhouse gases. This is not 
a question of doing adaptability and adjustments and not being 
able to do greenhouse gas reduction. The criterion in speaking 
with Department of Defense leaders for doing greenhouse gas 
reduction is, is it directly related to the mission?
    So, if we are electrifying forward operating bases that the 
Marines are using to reduce the reliance on long, vulnerable 
supply chains of diesel oil, that is directly related to the 
mission and it gives their capability much, much more. There 
are many examples of this, but I would say that the focus on 
greenhouse gas reduction, in many cases, in the Department of 
Defense and the Services, focuses on efficiency, getting more 
bang for the buck, getting more military capability, more time 
on station, longer ranges, greater payloads, by being much more 
efficient.
    However, it's also good to invest in the kinds of 
technology, many of which are helping our entire society in 
terms of economic development and have the Department of 
Defense, not just talk the talk about greenhouse gas reduction, 
but walk the walk and lead by example, as we have in any crisis 
in the past.
    Chairman Whitehouse. Director Sikorsky, same question.
    Ms. Sikorsky. Yes, I agree. I think those are the three key 
areas to talk about. I would make two additional points. One is 
that addressing those threats is not just about the Defense 
budget. It's also about other agencies, such as United States 
Agency for International Development and the State Department 
where they can make those upstream resilience investments.
    And then, the second point I would make is I don't see 
climate change as separate from some of the other challenges 
that have been talked about here today, like China and Russia. 
The International Security Advisory Board of the State 
Department recently released a new report on new threats and 
challenges. And they have a case study in there about Taiwan 
and a conflict over Taiwan and they look at how climate hazards 
might actually shape such a conflict and risks U.S. Forces and 
supply chains and ability to conduct operations there. So, 
these things need to be looked at, I think, together, not 
separately.
    Chairman Whitehouse. Mr. Dwyer, do you concur?
    Mr. Dwyer. Yes, Mr. Chairman, I concur with those 
assessments. And from a local host prospective, again we're 
looking at it from our community and our installation 
resilience perspective. And from our perspective, the focus 
needs to be on adapting and mitigating those effects.
    Chairman Whitehouse. And let me ask Admiral McGinn and 
Director Sikorsky from a military-wide perspective, and Mr. 
Dwyer from a Naval Station Norfolk perspective, do you feel 
that the data is inadequate to justify the decisions that are 
being made to reduce climate risks as with regards to 
infrastructure, operations, and conflict?
    Honorable McGinn. I do believe it's adequate, however, more 
data and better analysis, as you know, sir, is always good. And 
I think that we are doing commonsense, mission-focused measures 
and policies and investments in the Department of Defense that 
is based on an adequate level of data, but at the same time 
everybody realizes we need to learn more.
    Chairman Whitehouse. Director Sikorsky?
    Ms. Sikorsky. Yes, I agree with Admiral McGinn. And I think 
in many cases we've done the analysis and risk assessment and 
now it's about action and moving forward. I do agree with 
Admiral Gallaudet as well that sub-seasonal forecasting, 
getting better understandings, especially in places like Sub-
Sahara Africa and the Middle East where we don't have a lot of 
good data would be helpful in making risk assessments.
    Chairman Whitehouse. I've still got a chance for Mr. Dwyer 
to answer with regards to your sense in your planning around 
HRMFFA of whether you think you're doing that based on 
inadequate data and wasting people's time?
    Mr. Dwyer. The data we most look at in our region in terms 
of resiliency of our communities and installations is the 
amount of sea level rise. How much is the water going up and I 
don't think there's any dispute in terms of the data, in terms 
of how much it's risen at Naval Station Norfolk--excuse me. 
There's a tide gauge right near Naval Station Norfolk that's if 
it's not the oldest, it's one of the oldest tide gauges in the 
country and it's shown that we've had about 18 inches of sea 
level rise.
    Chairman Whitehouse. Maybe even a NOAA tide gauge.
    Mr. Dwyer. I believe it is, sir. But about 18 inches of sea 
level rise since I think 1930, so that's data nobody can argue 
with.
    Chairman Whitehouse. Senator Grassley.
    Senator Grassley. Thank you. Admiral Gallaudet, I quote 
from the Defense Department's 2022 National Defense Strategy 
concerns about China. ``The most comprehensive and serious 
challenge to the United States national security is PRC's 
coercive and increasingly aggressive endeavor to refashion the 
Indo Pacific region and the international system to suit its 
interests and authoritarian preferences.''
    Do you agree with the Pentagon that China is a greater 
threat to national security than climate change?
    Honorable Gallaudet. Thank you, Ranking Member Grassley. I 
do agree. I believe that China is a greater threat and is 
imposing more significant costs than climate change by orders 
of magnitude, and you can see it everywhere we look. They're 
buying land near U.S. military bases. Their surveillance 
balloons have been invading our airspace. They are challenging 
our allies and challenging us all around the world, especially 
in the Indo Pacific through unsafe, assertive, provocative 
military activities.
    And their Navy, as I said,--has eclipsed our U.S. Navy as 
being the largest in the world and they're also doing 
significant environmental harm to our allies by destroying 
coral reefs in the South China Sea and their illegal fishing 
which is a global phenomenon is undermining the blue economies 
of our partners and allies. So yes, China is absolutely more of 
a greater threat, and I think they--we know that they are going 
to invade Taiwan in the near future and that's the threat we 
should be talking about here.
    Senator Grassley. Admiral, to you also, not only are you 
the only climate scientist testifying today, you served as the 
Oceanographer of the Navy and head of NOAA. Those are jobs 
where you have to follow scientific evidence and not ideology 
because lives are often at stake. So, question, in your view 
how credible are the assertions that climate change is going to 
increase the frequency of extreme weather events like typhoons 
and hurricanes, and do you see much scientific evidence 
supporting the claim?
    Honorable Gallaudet. Well, thank you, Senator Grassley. I 
think we need to be more precise in the way we talk about 
extreme events caused by climate change. For example, as you 
stated, typhoons and hurricanes, there's been no upward or 
downward trend since 1980 worldwide.
    Now, some models do point to increasing intensification of 
those storms in the end of the century, but those are often 
models using extreme emission scenarios as I said in my 
statement. And in terms of attribution science, the National 
Academies of Science 2016 report, they ranked with very low 
confidence being able to attribute tropical cyclones or any one 
given tropical cyclone to climate change, and that includes the 
Tyndall Air Force Base hurricane, Hurricane Michael, that 
destroyed that facility, as well as the Typhoon Mawar that 
caused damage on Guam.
    I think also there's another point we should talk about and 
that's wildfires. Looking at the data from the national 
interagency wildfire center, there's been no change in the 
trend of wildfires since 1980. And I think another more 
important problem when we talk about wildfires is the fact that 
you really can't decouple easily, if at all, the other causal 
factors for wildfire frequency throughout the U.S. and that's 
things like land management and forest management practices.
    Senator Grassley. And Ms. Eaglen, accordingly, to official 
sources, China has a defense budget of $230 billion, but like 
many statistics published by the country's communist 
government, the numbers are very suspect. How much do you 
estimate China is really spending on its military? How does 
this compare to what the U.S. is spending on defense?
    Ms. Eaglen. Thank you, Ranking Member Grassley. So, the 
American Intelligence Community about a year ago stated that 
China spends about 700 billion on its defense budget, but no 
more information was provided, so at AEI we tried to recreate, 
as best we could, our own assessment and came up with a number 
at least three times as large as what the Chinese Communist 
Party puts out through its state media annually.
    As you noted, that 230 billion it's using conservative 
estimates at least 711 billion, including many things that we 
would include, for example, in our defense budget, that Beijing 
does not, for example, military research and development, space 
activities, rocket forces, many paramilitary organizations as 
well, Coast Guard, maritime militias, People's Armed Police. 
When you add all of these things up and account for some other 
adjustments and exchanges and purchasing power parity, it's 
easily at par with the United States budget for 2022. We 
estimate 96 percent of our own budget in size.
    Honorable McGinn. Senator Grassley, if I may, there's an 
old Russian proverb that says, ``Shoot the wolf closest to the 
sleigh.'' Well, this sleigh of national security that the 
United States has is surrounded by a lot of wolves or threats. 
And the problem that we can get in trying to compare a threat 
like China, for example, big and growing or what is going on 
with Russia and Ukraine and what is happening in the Middle 
East is that they are so urgent that they can take our 
attention and our resources away from threats that are even 
greater, but they're just not as urgent. So, we need to balance 
the urgent against the important in the longer term.
    Chairman Whitehouse. Senator Kaine, followed by Senator 
Johnson.

                   STATEMENT OF SENATOR KAINE

    Senator Kaine. Thank you, Chair. And to the witnesses, I 
appreciate it. I'll pick up on Admiral McGinn on urgency. This 
is already urgent in Virginia. The sea level rise in Hampton 
Roads is imposing significant costs on our military 
installations, but also on our communities. And it's also 
urgent in one other area of Virginia, the extreme nature of 
rainfall in Appalachian Virginia, which on an annualized basis 
isn't changing much. It's just coming in many more violent 
episodes and the infrastructure there was just not built for 
it, so roads, schools--it wasn't built for the violence of 
storms and so pretty much every year we end up with a massive 
kind of Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) event in the 
Appalachian region of Virginia.
    You did a good job, Rick, in talking about the programs 
that are already out there. I'm on the Armed Services Committee 
and we work on these a lot, the Defense Community 
Infrastructure Program and others. We're doing a good job on 
that, and you talked a little bit about the impact on 
operations in Hampton Roads when you have the main road serving 
the biggest and most important naval base in the world, more 
and more likely to flood just under normal tidal action. I'm 
not even talking about storms or extreme events, and that's a 
resilience problem that we have to invest. And I am pretty 
pleased with the work in the NDAA and the Armed Services 
Committee in putting more priority toward these resilience 
investments, but one piece of your testimony I just wanted to 
make sure my Committee colleagues understand because I do think 
we have enough data. But this issue is about how when the Army 
Corps does their assessments of what's needed that they don't 
take into account the federal facilities.
    I mean in Hampton Roads, which is the center of naval power 
in the world, it's not just the main naval base. I mean, we 
have 18 different military installations and annexes in Hampton 
Roads, plus the Hampton VA, Fort Monroe National Monument, NASA 
Langley, five different national wildlife refuges, Jefferson 
National Labs, and even more federal facilities, the Portsmouth 
Naval Hospital. Explain again to the Committee what the change 
we need to make in either WRDA or the NDAA to enable the Army 
Corps to include federal facilities when they're doing planning 
about resilience investments.
    Mr. Dwyer. Yes, sir. Thank you for that question. The issue 
boils down to those resiliency studies are funded through the 
Civil Works Program. And so, based on the Economy Act and the 
Corps' interpretation of that, they can't mix funding streams. 
So, if they're going to include different federal agencies' 
lands in that study that's a non-civilian agency, that agency 
has to pay their share to participate in the study.
    And the reason the naval base was left out of it last time 
the Corps doesn't find out until the money is dropped on them 
when they're going to get funding for these studies. So, when 
they approach the Navy about participating in that 2018 or 2019 
study, that installation commander doesn't have 4 or $500,000 
laying around that he could pay to participate in.
    I would like to say the Navy's learned from that and 
they're now participating in a Virginia Beach study that 
started last year. They're paying to play in that. But as you 
mentioned, the real concern is the study that the Corps just 
found out they got money for in December, seven different 
federal agencies on the Peninsula, the military, NASA . . .
    Senator Kaine. Coast Guard.
    Mr. Dwyer. And people can argue that DOD's got the money to 
pay for it, the Parks Service, NASA, Coast Guard, some of their 
budgets don't stack up and don't have----
    Senator Kaine. Well, oftentimes, we run into this problem 
where we silo things to our detriment and we need to be looking 
at the region comprehensively, especially with all the federal 
facilities. It was good that in WRDA in the last version in the 
Senate tried to correct this. It's unfortunate that that was 
not included in the ultimate compromise that was reached with 
the House, but whether was part of WRDA or the NDAA. We're 
going to make another run at it this year so that we can, 
again, take advantage of the data that we have and actually 
have a comprehensive assessment about what we should do.
    Last thing, Mr. Chair, I'm just going to spend a minute 
bragging on Virginia. We're not just a basket case. We're not 
just a problem child. Hampton Roads is the second most 
vulnerable to sea level rise after New Orleans and the 
Appalachian challenge, as I mentioned. But in recent years, 
Virginia has become a real leader in clean energy.
    When I came into the Senate in 2012, we were bottom half of 
the nation in solar deployment, for example. Now, by most 
measures, we're Top 10, and I'm proud to have played my own 
little part in that, together with state legislators and our 
governors. We were nowhere in the wind space and now we're a 
national leader in offshore wind.
    Part of what we're doing to improve resilience in the port 
of Hampton Roads will enable us to better serve offshore wind 
off the coast of Virginia and the Outer Banks. So, the fact 
that we have moved from laggard to leader, at least in two 
clean energy spaces, solar and offshore wind, is positive.
    And just last week, the Biden Administration announced with 
the Virginia DOD installations, together with Dominion, our 
largest utility, that we will reach 100 percent clean energy 
for our DOD facilities in Virginia by 2030. And we're excited 
because you're right, in the global scheme of things, maybe 
that's a tiny percentage, but our military has always been a 
leader. When the military desegregated after World War II, that 
was a signal that led to significant positive social change. 
And if the military can lead in this space, it will not only be 
good because we will be producing our own energy and not 
relying on others we needn't, but it will also send an 
important signal that I think others are likely to follow.
    So, thank you for this hearing today, Mr. Chair, and I 
yield back.
    Chairman Whitehouse. Thank you very much, Senator Kaine. 
Next, is Senator Johnson, followed by Senator Van Hollen and 
then Senator Braun.

                  STATEMENT OF SENATOR JOHNSON

    Senator Johnson. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'll start again, 
as I normally do in these hearings. I'm not a climate change 
denier. I'm just not an alarmist. You know, climate has always 
changed. Always will. We'll have to adapt.
    But let me start asking any of the witnesses, anybody know 
how much the sea level has increased in the Bay of San 
Francisco since the last glaciation period, you know, 12 to 
20,000 years ago? Anybody?
    Mr. Dwyer, you're concerned about 18 inches, undeniable.
    Anyone want to take a guess? 390 feet. Do you think there's 
anything we could've done to prevent the sea level rising 390 
feet over the last, let's say, 20,000 years? The answer to that 
is no. Okay?
    The Vostok ice core sample shows five pretty distinct 
cycles of temperature variation of almost 23 degrees 
Fahrenheit. Anything we could've done to stop that? Anybody 
know how much we've spent globally on trying to turn back the 
tides to prevent climate change? Anybody have an estimate of 
that? We had a witness from AEI estimate about five trillion. 
This was before the Inflation Reduction Act that claims about 
$400 billion. Goldman Sachs says it's really about $1.2. So, 
let's say it's six trillion dollars of spending globally trying 
to combat climate change, have we impacted climate change at 
all? I still see the same level of hair-on-fire alarmism. Got 
to spend more money. To what effect?
    Honorable McGinn. Senator, as a veteran of nearly 200 
combat missions and over a thousand carrier landings in high 
performance jets, I have never been accused of being an 
alarmist. I have been accused of being very analytical, data 
driven, and I think that----
    Senator Johnson. You didn't know that the sea level had 
risen 390 feet. Don't you think that's an important data point 
when you're discussing climate change?
    Honorable McGinn. It isn't in the human life span as 
important.
    Senator Johnson. The human life span we're a blip in these 
major geologic trends. We're a blip. Now, you can blow up that 
blip and turn into alarmism.
    Admiral McGinn, let me ask you a question. You're into 
business now, right?
    Honorable McGinn. Yes.
    Senator Johnson. What kind of business are you in?
    Honorable McGinn. I'm in the business of energy, 
environment, and economy.
    Senator Johnson. And what does that business do?
    Honorable McGinn. But basically, taking a look at the 
opportunities that we have to transition from our energy 
portfolio, which is primarily and has for good reasons been 
relying on fossil fuel.
    Senator Johnson. Who are your clients?
    Honorable McGinn. I'm not going to show those right now 
because of nondisclosure.
    Senator Johnson. Is it fair to say maybe the Defense 
Department and the government?
    Honorable McGinn. No, it's not. No.
    Senator Johnson. Would you say that your opportunities 
spring from the fact that, you know, we have a climate change 
crisis on our hands creating opportunities for your business?
    Honorable McGinn. It's not an opportunity that springs from 
climate change. It's an opportunity to increase economic 
development and create jobs.
    Senator Johnson. So, we've talked a lot about studies, 
right? Anybody read the Wall Street Journal article today about 
the publisher named Wiley, been around for 217 years, is 
shutting down 19 journals because over the last two years 
they've had to retract 11,300 fraudulent research studies. Has 
anybody listened to President Eisenhower's farewell address 
recently?
    Not only did he warn us about the military industrial 
complex, which we have not heeded that warning at all. The 
second warning was he warned us about public government 
financing of science and research, implying that if 
government's funding research those scientists are going to be 
more concerned about getting a research grant turning a crisis 
into an opportunity and that would corrupt science.
    We've known about fraudulent research now for decades. We 
just haven't talked about it. We've ignored it. We've covered 
it up. But I would argue fraudulent research is probably 
fueling more of the climate alarmism, creating opportunities 
than anything else. I'm just not buying the science. When you 
take a look at actual science, like 390 feet sea level rise, 
like the Vostok ice core sample, do you realize that CO2 in 
those Vostok graphs is a lagging indicator. Temperature rise is 
first, then CO2 comes later. Anybody realize that?
    Admiral, did you want to comment on it? You're a Ph.D. on 
this.
    Honorable Gallaudet. I do want to comment on that, Senator 
Johnson. Thank you. I think it is true that there is a bias in 
the media and some scientific journals towards negative 
reporting of climate change impacts. You would never believe 
this in view of the Administration's trove of climate 
directives, but many climate indices related to human and 
society well-being have been on an positive trend for the last 
50 years, despite the 1.3 degrees Celsius of warming that's 
occurred. And these are things like crop yields and calories 
per individuals and these are global statistics you can go find 
on Our World in Data. Things like death rates due to national 
disasters, the instances of diseases related to climate like 
malaria. Those are going down.
    Malnutrition and famine, those trends are also going down. 
And then extreme poverty throughout the world is also 
plummeted, so there's a lot of positive results of technology 
and our energy posture, frankly, and right now there are three 
billion people who are in an energy poverty status. I encourage 
everyone to look up the Breakthrough Institute and see the 
recent article by Dr. Patrick Brown on this topic.
    Senator Johnson. My final comment, just imagine the human 
suffering we could've alleviated spending five to six trillion 
dollars trying to alleviate that, rather than hold back the 
tides which we're not--we won't be able to do. Thank you, Mr. 
Chairman.
    Chairman Whitehouse. Just for the record, the last time 
that I can recall that somebody accused a climate scientist of 
engaging in fraud there was actually a lawsuit and Dr. Mann won 
the lawsuit and got a million-dollar judgment against the 
individual who had accused him of fraud. So, when that 
proposition is tested in real life against a real individual, 
the courts straighten it out pretty quickly. Senator Van 
Hollen.

                STATEMENT OF SENATOR VAN HOLLEN

    Senator Van Hollen. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Right. I find this conversation a little detached from 
reality, especially in light of the hearing that we had in the 
Budget Committee a short time ago where it was very clear that 
the big oil companies' own research investigation indicated 
that their carbon emissions and carbon emissions were major 
contributors to climate change. And in terms of putting a bias 
on top of it, it was clear from their own documents that they 
had then worked to cover up the fact that the science showed 
that their contributions to climate change were real. I mean, 
these are facts. These were documents that were disclosed, and 
I thank the Chairman for having that hearing.
    Back to the immediate impact that we're witnessing and not 
just globally, not just nationally, but close to home. Like 
Virginia, Maryland is home to many military installations. We 
have two dozen military installations in Maryland, about half 
of them are coastal. And climate change has been a big factor 
in the sea level rise that we've seen in the Chesapeake Bay 
over a foot over the last 100 years and projected to rise up to 
another six feet over the next hundred years, and so this is 
impacting our military installations,
    Annapolis, of course, is home to the U.S. Naval Academy. 
We're very proud to have it in the State of Maryland that broke 
records in 2019 with almost 20 days of high tide flooding, up 
from an average of two days per year from 1995 to 2005. And the 
Naval Academy has taken steps to address sea level rise, 
including a $37.5 million project to raise the height of the 
sea wall to protect part of the Academy.
    Aberdeen Proving Ground in northeast Maryland is the site 
of important Army research that's dependent on Aberdeen's high-
tech infrastructure, and it is also threatened by sea level 
rise. For example, the Army Research Lab relies on an Aberdeen 
testing site nearby, Spesutie Island, which is expected to be 
completely under water in 50 years. So, Mr. Dwyer, thank you 
again for the work that you've done on this issue.
    In your testimony, you cite how consistent under-investment 
in infrastructure has created a maintenance and modernization 
backlog of about $49 billion for the Navy and $47 billion for 
the Air Force. So, do you believe that this is an area where we 
should be investing more in order to protect our military 
assets?
    Mr. Dwyer. Senator, thank you for that question. The answer 
is, yes, I do believe that we need to be investing more in the 
infrastructure of our DOD installations. You mentioned the 
backlog. That's from historical decades of underfunding. Like I 
said, when I was a Second Lieutenant back in 1996, I was told 
right when I came in that we're taking risks in infrastructure. 
That's why we don't have enough funding to do what we need to 
do on the installations and that's been the mantra ever since.
    And so now we've got this huge backlog of bills and I think 
the '25 budget request is requesting about $37 billion in DOD 
for Military Construction (MILCON) and Facilities Sustainment, 
Restoration and Modernization (FSRM) funding, $1.3 trillion 
plant replacement value. So, we're at about a little less than 
3 percent investment and a lot of that investment is for new 
mission bed-downs, Unified Combatant Command (COCOM) 
requirements, so not recapitalizing and investing in our 
existing infrastructure. Industry standard is about 4 to 6 
percent investment every year just in keeping your facilities 
in good condition and recapitalizing.
    Senator Van Hollen. Well, I appreciate that. I mean, look, 
obviously we have ongoing maintenance requirements, apart from 
climate change, but the reality is that places like the Naval 
Academy the additional costs are necessary because of what 
we're seeing.
    Admiral McGinn, again, thank you for your service. You 
speak in your testimony about climate change as ``catalyst for 
instability in conflict.'' So, do you agree that our efforts to 
make a transition toward clean energy is not only in our 
interest from an economic point of view, from an environmental 
point of view, but also from a national security point of view?
    Honorable McGinn. Yes, sir, I do. In a broader sense, our 
national security is comprised of three big pillars: our energy 
security, our economic security, and our environmental 
security. They directly lead to our quality of life and our 
safety and our health. And so, fossil fuel has been fantastic 
for this country and many parts of the world, not all, in terms 
of giving us the kind of economies and quality of life that we 
have. But it's time to change.
    Just as we had to change years ago when we thought that 
asbestos was a great insulator or DDT was a great insect 
control mechanism or that leaded paint was a terrific substance 
to use inside and outside of homes. What happened was there was 
analysis that was done, medical research done, and we realized 
that despite all of the benefits of things, there's a downside.
    And we've come to realize, and you've cited the fossil fuel 
industries own research that there's a downside to continued 
use, unmitigated use of fossil fuels. So, it's time to switch 
to another way of powering our economy and powering our way of 
life and literally creating a much stronger national security 
because of that.
    Honorable Gallaudet. Senator Van Hollen, if I may, as a 
fellow Maryland resident.
    Senator Van Hollen. Sure.
    Honorable Gallaudet. Even though my comments about 
wildfires and typhoons were directed at the need to be more 
precise in what's occurring, I fully support Mr. Dwyer's 
testimony and I've lived it firsthand. I've seen the increased 
inundation and high-tide flooding where I lived in North Beach, 
Maryland. I just moved to Annapolis. I've seen what's happened 
to the Academy. I applaud those investments and I agree we need 
to invest more in our infrastructure and installations, and I'm 
especially interested because my daughter starts at Annapolis 
next month.
    Senator Van Hollen. Well, listen, thank you and it's good 
to see you. And thank you as well for your service and your 
testimony. And we are very proud of the Naval Academy and 
congratulations on your daughter. Thank you.
    Chairman Whitehouse. Senator Braun.

                   STATEMENT OF SENATOR BRAUN

    Senator Braun. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    We do have a couple Admirals on the panel. I want to quote 
one. Back in 2010, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, 
Admiral Mike Mullen, stated that the most significant threat to 
our national security is our debt, 2010. That is back when it 
was so much less than what it is now. Back in 2010, it was 
probably around 15, 16 trillion. It was a lot less. I know it 
was 18 trillion when I got here in '18.
    Jamie Diamond and Jerome Powell in the last couple months 
have said our national debt and the service of it, which is now 
denominated in trillions, trillion dollars a year, is the same 
as our defense budget. That finally the two biggest finance 
guys in the world said enough is enough and that the dark 
clouds for our economy in the future would be the behavior of 
this place.
    On March 20th, in this body, I introduced a resolution that 
passed by unanimous consent that debt is a threat to our 
national security. Remember this is the Budget Committee and we 
haven't run a balanced budget since the late nineties. I want 
to distill this into very simple terms.
    Senator Johnson was talking about all the elements that go 
into the past, the present, and the future, the modeling that's 
been nowhere close and the money, the time value of money that 
we are starting to spend on something that is amorphous. I'd 
like each one of your opinions. Which is more of an existential 
threat, our debt that's progressed as far as you can see. 
That's a bird in the hand. That's absolute to be at least two 
trillion dollars a year out 10 years. Sooner or later, we'll go 
through like a Chapter 11 to where that'll be reduced.
    What is more of a threat, climate change or our national 
debt and the trajectory of it? Start over with Mr. McGinn.
    Honorable McGinn. Senator, I know Mike Mullen very well. 
We're friends, shipmates, worked together very, very closely 
and I have no doubt in his perspective that, in fact, national 
debt is a big--national security, indeed.
    Senator Braun. Well, which do you think is more of an 
existential threat?
    Honorable McGinn. It would be a mistake to focus only on 
that to the exclusion of other threats like, for example, 
climate change, because climate change.
    Senator Braun. And I agree with you there.
    Honorable McGinn. It's not going to treat us more kindly in 
terms of our national debt and our needed investments to 
protect ourselves from increasing severe weather.
    Senator Braun. So, I'd just like a--which one do you think 
is more of an existential threat?
    Honorable McGinn. It depends on the timeframe. I think 
longer-term climate change left unattended or properly attended 
is a greater threat. In the near-term, we have to deal with our 
national debt.
    Ms. Sikorsky. Thank you, Senator, for the question. Here's 
what I know, that if climate change continues unabated that 
will increase our national debt over time. And when we're 
talking about adaptation and resilience investments, like the 
kinds that all members, I think, of the panel have referred to 
today, there are many studies showing that spending one dollar 
today.
    Senator Braun. Are you willing to borrow more money to do 
it?
    Ms. Sikorsky. I think we need to make these investments for 
resilience and adaptation.
    Senator Braun. You borrow and spend it with the 
subjectivity associated with that over what we could do in our 
own discipline to get back to a healthy place where you could 
actually do something about it.
    Ms. Sikorsky. I think making our bases and installations 
more resilient, as we've talked about, to future threats so 
we're not spending $10 billion like we're going to have to in 
Guam due to the wave that came through there or what happened 
at Tyndall Air Force Base, which cost billions of dollars.
    Senator Braun. In the context of still borrowing two 
trillion dollars a year or do you think we ought to work on 
that first and then maybe pick the priorities?
    Ms. Sikorsky. I think we've got to be able to walk and chew 
gum at the same time and deal with both of----
    Senator Braun. Well, we haven't been doing a very good job 
at that. Next?
    Mr. Dwyer. Sir, I'm a civil engineer by education and by 
trade, so I look at it from an infrastructure and what's the 
cost to protect the infrastructure that we have and bottom line 
that's going to take investment.
    To your question, I don't know what's more of an 
existential threat the debt or climate change. All I know is 
that if we want to keep our military installations, which we 
project power from, we're going to have to invest to protect 
them.
    Honorable Gallaudet. Senator, I said in my opening 
statement that I acknowledge the challenges to national 
security imposed by climate change, but that the fact that in 
2024 will be the first time the interest we pay on our debt is 
exceeding the Pentagon's budget. That, I believe, is the 
greater national security risk.
    Ms. Eaglen. We know and you know Sir, that peace begets 
prosperity, which is required for economic growth to sustain 
that same peace and stability, so I would say dealing with the 
debt is a immediate concern.
    Senator Braun. Thank you. And if I introduce a resolution 
today that climate was a threat to our national security, you'd 
barely get 50 votes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Chairman Whitehouse. And I might have an explanation for 
that, but I'll leave that for another day. Senator Warner.

                  STATEMENT OF SENATOR WARNER

    Senator Warner. So much to say and so little time. I agree 
with Senator Braun that the national debt is a huge issue. We 
got close. My first gang, was the Simpson-Bowles gang. I worked 
very closely with Mike Mullen. Mike Mullen also thinks that 
climate change is a critical component. And I would point out 
to my colleagues we're never going to get the debt under 
control unless you not only look at the spending side but the 
revenue side.
    Of 34 Organisation for Economic Co-operation and 
Development (OECD) nations in the world, America is 32. And if 
you go to those individuals, I'll take them all. I'll take 
Jimmy Diamond, take them all. They all agree, whether it's the 
infrastructure bill or the CHIPS and Science Act (CHIPS) bill, 
if we become economically noncompetitive, we're never going to 
be able to grapple with the debt.
    I'm sorry. My friend from Wisconsin left and when he is 
starting to attack people's science, I mean, long before I was 
governor or Senator I was on the Center for Naval Analyses 
(CNA), the Federally Funded Research and Development Center 
(FFRDC) for the Navy. Early as the mid-nineties, CNA, ahead of 
political figures were saying if we don't get ahead of climate 
change it is a national security imperative. And I just wish--
I'm not sure whether my friend, Tim Kaine's already raised 
this, Rick, and it's great to see you again.
    You know the amount of money the Navy spends every year in 
Norfolk to raise the piers because of sea level rise. I would 
love to have seen my colleagues who just say it's not really 
happening I'd like to take them to a church in Norfolk that 
floods virtually every high tide. Never did before, but because 
of climate change.
    I'd like to take a look at the literally $500 million of 
federal funds that we have to put in Norfolk. And again, Rick, 
thank you for your work on this to make sure that we could 
raise sea level walls so we don't flood out one of the major 
cities in the Commonwealth of Virginia. For people to deny 
those facts is a complete disconnect from reality. And I would 
invite anyone of my colleagues to take a trip with me to 
Hampton Roads and see the effects firsthand of what it does to 
our economy because if we don't have a strong economy we're not 
going to be able to generate the revenues to bring down that 
debt. I think $34 trillion in national debt. It's a national 
embarrassment. I think we should've done Simpson-Bowles a 
decade ago. And frankly, both political parties lost any 
credibility on this issue, particularly my Republican friends 
after the Trump tax cuts where the advocacy was borrowing is 
great. Well, borrowing is great until interest rates go back to 
any kind of rational basis and we're seeing the effects of that 
right now, but to deny the absolute, tangible costs, not in 
some future date. The costs this year is a complete divorce 
from reality.
    I am and I was going to give you a great softball question 
about how the communities in Hampton Roads were going to work 
together, but I'm down to a minute 45 and I don't get the 
Budget Committee as much as I'd like and the Chairman will cut 
me off if I go on too long.
    So, Admiral McGinn, one of the things you said in your 
testimony I absolutely believe we need to make this conversion 
to a cleaner energy and deal with climate change. You've made 
clear in your testimony. I frankly believe, and I think you've 
raised this, respectfully to some of my other members, I don't 
think we can do it with solar and wind alone. I think we need a 
fresh look at small modular nukes, SMRs. I think the 
technology's advanced. They are carbon free. We can do them 
from micro-size to the 150 to 300 megawatts which, again, in 
many ways is not that much larger than what fuels our sailors 
on an aircraft carrier.
    And one of the things that I'm trying to work now with our 
friends on the Armed Services Committee is we need DOD to lean 
in on this issue. We're already going to see the energy needs 
that are going be created by the data centers that are going to 
power AI, the Hyperscalers. They have to have some skin in the 
game. But in the last 35 seconds, can you talk a little bit 
about how we can get DOD, as an off-take provider as I think 
SMRs and other technology can provide that clean energy. But 
we've got to generate the demand so we can get to that first of 
kind risk.
    Honorable McGinn. Right on. I think that the outcome of 
having SMRs is absolutely necessary. It has tremendous 
benefits, not just to reducing greenhouse gases, but 
importantly, to our economic development and our technology. 
And I think that DOD does need to be a partner and it has to be 
a public-private partnership. There are many utility companies, 
Dominion being one, Duke another, Southern Company, and the 
public utility company, Tennessee Valley Authority (TVA), very 
interested. So, I think it has to be a public-private 
partnership with DOD, with DOE to push forward SMR technology 
to, not only get it developed fully, but to scale it and deploy 
it.
    Chairman Whitehouse. I'll take Chairman's prerogative here 
just to add that these emerging nuclear technologies create the 
opportunity to cleanly repower existing fossil heat plants 
where there's already turbines. There's already transformers. 
There's already a robust grid built and there's already a 
technical workforce. All you have to do is boil the water with 
a different form of power to provide a really major 
improvement. So, thank you for bringing that up, Senator 
Warner. Next, we have Senator Padilla, followed by Senator 
Lujan.

                  STATEMENT OF SENATOR PADILLA

    Senator Padilla. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    I appreciate Senator Warner's example after example from 
Virginia on the topic at hand here. I'd like to raise a couple 
from my home state of California. Atmospheric rivers are high-
impact winter storm events that provide 50 percent of annual 
precipitation in California and 80 percent of our flooding. 
These storms also hinder military aviation capabilities, which 
are kind of important on the Pacific with increased turbulence 
in air space, visibility reduction, and surface wind impacts.
    Rear Admiral Gallaudet, you mentioned in your testimony 
that the Department of Defense needs to invest more in short-
term sub-seasonal and seasonal forecast improvements. As you 
may be aware, I introduced a bill to that effect that was 
included in Fiscal Year 2024 National Defense Authorization 
Act, and it directs the Air Force and NOAA to prioritize 
whether reconnaissance flights over the Pacific Ocean for 
atmospheric river storm prediction.
    Given your role as Oceanographer of the Navy and Acting 
Administrator of NOAA, do you agree these Pacific 
reconnaissance flights are critical for understanding impacts 
on installations, training, and operations missions?
    Honorable Gallaudet. Absolutely, sir. I'd like to see more 
of those.
    Senator Padilla. All right. Feel free to expand here for 
about 30 seconds.
    Honorable Gallaudet. Well, yes, and in fact when I was in 
charge of the National Oceanic Atmospheric Administration, we 
also supported those reconnaissance flights with our NOAA P3 
hurricane hunters. When there's not a hurricane season around, 
they could go to the West Coast and support the prediction and 
observation efforts which are critical to advance our 
environmental modeling and the American weather model, which we 
started an effort to basically take the top spot from the 
Europeans, and so that work continues. It's called the Earth 
Prediction Innovation Center, and the atmospheric river 
prediction is a key component of it.
    Senator Padilla. Thank you. The only thing I'll add to that 
is to be careful now utilizing the term ``season'' when it 
comes to these types of events. There used to be kind of a 
defined wildfire season in California until the wildfires 
started earlier and earlier and lasted longer and longer into 
the year. Now, we're on our toes all year round. I think 
similarly for hurricanes and tornadoes for that matter. What 
used to be more of a defined season is expanding, expanding and 
not a coincidence because our climate is, indeed, changing.
    Now, several of you have shared, both in written testimony 
and in conversation here today, you've referenced Guam. Guam 
suffered catastrophic flooding that requires significant 
funding now for repair and recovery. It's my understanding that 
the Naval Installations Command is currently supporting a 
research effort to enhance coastal resilience and better 
prepare for the impacts from the changing climate on the most 
vulnerable installations across the Pacific.
    Question for Ms. Sikorsky, how can academic researchers in 
California better support the Department of Defense's efforts 
to plan for and mitigate impacts at installations that face 
these threat multipliers?
    Ms. Sikorsky. Thank you so much for the question, Senator. 
I think that the academic community, the scientific community 
can be a huge resource for Department of Defense through the 
Minerva Project and other opportunities there to marry that 
scientific research with the national security concerns to 
better understand the resilience needs. I think investments in 
that partnership are really important and can provide new 
information and new data that can make the Defense Department 
make better decisions.
    Senator Padilla. Thank you. And a follow-up question to 
Vice Admiral McGinn. How else are Navy installations preparing 
for these threat multiplier events and what are the tools are 
the agencies not currently utilizing, but could or should?
    Honorable McGinn. I think, across the board, Senator, 
especially in California, looking at the variance of threats 
could be rising water in San Diego, for example or atmospheric 
rivers, et cetera. Up at the mountain training range for the 
Marine Corps, up in Bridgeport it could be wildfires. They are 
trying to anticipate and to try to make themselves more 
resilient to these effects.
    Overall, I know you're very aware of power brownouts or 
blackouts that've happened in very, very hot weather conditions 
and usually in the late summer, early fall in California. The 
Navy has been trying to be a good partner with the California 
Energy Commission and the utilities out there, Southern 
California, Edison, San Diego Gas & Electric, to make sure that 
the load is managed and reduced during those times so that we 
can keep the lights on for the greatest number of people.
    Senator Padilla. Thank you all very much. Thank you, Mr. 
Chair.
    Chairman Whitehouse. Senator Lujan.
    Senator Lujan. Admiral, if you wanted to----
    Honorable Gallaudet. I just wanted to add one more thing 
about resilience in the Mariana Islands.
    Chairman Whitehouse. Stop the clock for Senator Lujan so 
we're not using his time for Admiral Gallaudet's intervention. 
Go ahead.
    Honorable Gallaudet. Thank you, Senator--Chairman 
Whitehouse. One organization that I used to lead is the Naval 
Metrology and Oceanography Command and they're the command that 
predicts typhoons in the western Pacific and that's the most 
impactful event out there in terms of climatic. And so, 
improving those predictions and supporting that command with 
more investments I think will be very important going forward 
as we're going to operate more in the Indo Pacific and they're 
doing great work with the private sector. A California company 
called Sofar Ocean on Pier 28 in San Fransisco makes ocean data 
buoys, and they have a global network, and that information is 
critical to improving our predictions of typhoons and really 
weather events worldwide.
    Senator Padilla. Wonderful. Thank you.
    Chairman Whitehouse. A fresh start.

                   STATEMENT OF SENATOR LUJAN

    Senator Lujan. Thank you very much, Chairman Whitehouse, 
and good morning to you as well. Thank you for holding this 
important hearing, and to our panelists who are here as well.
    It's clear to me that the national security community needs 
more quality, up-to-date information to make decisions showing 
how climate change will affect military operations, 
infrastructure, and global security. The question is who can we 
turn to in the United States for this practical, scientific 
experience?
    Now, I'm proud to say that New Mexico is at the forefront 
of this effort. Every day thousands of scientists and engineers 
at Los Alamos National Laboratory and Sandia National 
Laboratory are hard at work at the most pressing national 
security issues, including those driven by climate change. And 
they've demonstrated time and again how their science delivers 
a safer and more prosperous nation.
    As climate change continues to grow as a threat to our 
security, we can rely on our labs to provide solutions to some 
of our hardest problems. Now, Ms. Sikorsky, I understand that 
you recently visited Sandia National Laboratory to learn about 
how the lab provides climate research and modeling to support 
our national security community; is that correct?
    Ms. Sikorsky. Yes.
    Senator Lujan. And what'd you learn?
    Ms. Sikorsky. Thank you, Senator.
    Well, I learned, obviously, that the federal scientific 
community is a huge resource for combating the threats from 
climate change, and Sandia's deep experience on nuclear 
deterrence issues, right, and managing nuclear threats. The 
lessons learned from that process can also help on the climate 
piece. I mean the access they have to computing power and to 
data is just so huge and they've got really smart people 
working these problems and they're already partnering with the 
U.S. Intelligence Community and the Defense Department to move 
this forward.
    Congress has done some great work in this space too by 
setting up the Climate Security Advisory Council and the 
Climate Security Roundtable at the National Academies and I 
would encourage Congress to continue pursuing innovative 
partnerships like that so labs like Sandia can be used to their 
maximum ability to tackle these security threats.
    Senator Lujan. I appreciate that Ms. Sikorsky. I've been 
very impressed with the capabilities of the super computer's 
ability to forecast climate disaster and solve so many 
challenges, not just that we face here around America and in 
America, but around the world.
    I recently introduced a bipartisan bill to improve our 
weather and climate models so we could be prepared before a 
disaster strikes. This was prompted because of the devastating 
wildfires that many of us have experienced around the West and 
visiting with colleagues throughout the East Coast as well. The 
devastation that we've seen with erosion, rising oceans, it's 
something that I've found more commonality with than 
disagreement with.
    Ms. Sikorsky, yes or no, are the labs well positioned to 
answer key questions from the national security community 
considering their expertise and resources?
    Ms. Sikorsky. Yes, I think the labs are well positioned and 
I would love to see even more efforts to bring lab personnel 
and national security experts together on a regular basis. 
Again, in my background in the Intelligence Community, I think 
having lab folks on rotation in those places regularly would 
really help.
    Senator Lujan. Can you expand upon that with how these 
teams could be brought together more and how the labs could be 
utilized more in this effort?
    Ms. Sikorsky. Sure. I think what you see now a lot is the 
Intelligence Community has a question. They throw it over the 
fence to the labs. The labs do a big study and then they throw 
it back, you know, six months, a year later. What I'd love to 
see instead are teams where they're doing co-production, right, 
where you've got folks sitting around a table together, looking 
at the question from the very beginning and breaking down the 
silos, if you will, between the labs and the security 
community.
    And I know there's some innovation happening with some of 
the labs in that vein already, but it's kind of just testing it 
out. I'd love to see it expanded.
    Senator Lujan. I appreciate that. I mean, the labs 
definitely have the security apparatus and clearances to be 
able to hold those kinds of robust conversations and problem-
solving sessions. I appreciate that very much.
    The last thing that I'll share, Mr. Chairman, is when we're 
talking about some of the innovations made with small nuclear 
reactors from an energy perspective and things of that nature, 
I was concerned with the last, most recent blue ribbon 
commission taskforce associated with spent fuel. It suggested 
just putting the spent fuel in the ground.
    I know it's expensive, but it's spent fuel. There's a 
reason why I'm referring to it as that. There's still useful 
life in this, but America's made a decision about not 
reprocessing, dissimilar to other allies in the world like 
France. And I just think that if there's still a useful life in 
this stuff, rather than sticking it the ground in a place like 
New Mexico where I don't want it, we need to be smarter about 
what reprocessing would look like at existing areas, locations, 
things of that nature across America.
    So, Mr. Chairman, that's where my heads goes when I have 
this conversation so that we include spent fuel as part of the 
solutions that--or one of the challenges that has to find a 
better solution as well, but very much appreciate this 
conversation. Thank you all for being here.
    Chairman Whitehouse. I thank the Senator for that, and I 
look forward to continuing to work with him as we increase the 
capacity for developing next gen nuclear reactors, which we've 
done several bills to improve so that we can take that some 
would say nuclear waste and repurpose it to positive value 
repowering clean, safe nuclear projects. We've done 
considerable work together and I'm grateful to the Senator for 
raising that issue.
    I want to thank all the witnesses for appearing before the 
Committee today. Your full written statements will be included 
in the Record.
    Admiral Gallaudet, I want to thank you particularly for 
mentioning the China fisheries threat. And for anybody 
listening, Senator Sullivan of Alaska and I have a bill to 
address the international fisheries problem posed by China's 
very predatory fishing fleet and by the pirate fishing fleets 
that are out there essentially running slave ships outside the 
law and destroying the fish stocks of the world to the peril of 
our legitimate fisherman, something we care a lot about in 
Rhode Island.
    So, to understand the national security component of that I 
think is very important and I will publicly thank both the Navy 
and the Coast Guard for the way that they have much improved 
their working relationship in the fisheries enforcement area. A 
little more progress yet, but Secretary Del Toro, in 
particular, has been energized about working with the Coast 
Guard to make sure that we are meeting this challenge head on.
    The only other thing I'd say is that the oceans are 
measurably warming at a massive scale. It's measured in zeta 
jewels, which is 21 zeros. It's a really enormous number and 
surface temperatures are measurably increasing, and we know 
that warmer ocean surface temperatures power up hurricanes and 
cyclones. So, when you question attribution science between 
ocean measurements and cyclones, I would urge you to be 
careful. You adjusted your testimony to say that as to any one 
given cyclone, but I would suggest to you that that's not the 
point. It's impossible to attribute any one given homerun to a 
baseball player who is jacked on steroids.
    But when you look at the numbers of homeruns and the power 
of the hits, you can't then use that problem of attribution to 
deny the underlying fact that steroids are warping the 
performance of the baseball player. So, I'd be careful about 
making that point as you pursue your repertoire.
    And questions for the record are due by 12:00 noon 
tomorrow. I ask the witnesses to respond to any questions that 
we get by 12:00 tomorrow within seven days of receipt. And with 
no further business before the Committee, I will adjourn the 
hearing.
    [Whereupon, at 11:46 a.m., Wednesday, May 15, 2024, the 
hearing was adjourned.]

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