[Senate Hearing 118-273]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]


                                                        S. Hrg. 118-273

                 IMPROVING EXPORT CONTROLS ENFORCEMENT

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

                            SUBCOMMITTEE ON
                      EMERGING THREATS AND SPENDING 
                               
                               OVERSIGHT

                                OF THE

                              COMMITTEE ON
                          HOMELAND SECURITY AND 
                          
                          GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS
                          
                          UNITED STATES SENATE

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                             SECOND SESSION

                               __________

                             APRIL 10, 2024

                               __________

        Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov

                       Printed for the use of the
        Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs
        
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                   U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE                    
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        COMMITTEE ON HOMELAND SECURITY AND GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS

                   GARY C. PETERS, Michigan, Chairman
THOMAS R. CARPER, Delaware           RAND PAUL, Kentucky
MAGGIE HASSAN, New Hampshire         RON JOHNSON, Wisconsin
KYRSTEN SINEMA, Arizona              JAMES LANKFORD, Oklahoma
JACKY ROSEN, Nevada                  MITT ROMNEY, Utah
JON OSSOFF, Georgia                  RICK SCOTT, Florida
RICHARD BLUMENTHAL, Connecticut      JOSH HAWLEY, Missouri
LAPHONZA BUTLER, California          ROGER MARSHALL, Kansas

               David M. Weinberg, Majority Staff Director
           William E. Henderson III, Minority Staff Director
                     Laura W. Kilbride, Chief Clerk
                   Ashley A. Gonzalez, Hearing Clerk


        SUBCOMMITTEE ON EMERGING THREATS AND SPENDING OVERSIGHT

                 MAGGIE HASSAN, New Hampshire, Chairman
KYRSTEN SINEMA, Arizona              MITT ROMNEY, Utah
JACKY ROSEN, Nevada                  JAMES LANKFORD, Oklahoma
JON OSSOFF, Georgia                  RICK SCOTT, Florida

               Jason M. Yanussi, Majority Staff Director
                   Nicholas F. Caron, Policy Advisor
           Scott Maclean Richardson, Minority Staff Director
           Maggie Frankel, Minority Professional Staff Member
                Paul H.J. Hurton III, Subcommittee Clerk
                           
                           C O N T E N T S

                                 ------                                
Opening statements:
                                                                   Page
    Senator Hassan...............................................     1
    Senator Scott................................................    10
    Senator Romney...............................................    13
    Senator Lankford.............................................    15
    Senator Blumenthal...........................................    17
    Senator Rosen................................................    20
Prepared statements:
    Senator Hassan...............................................    31

                                WITNESS
                       WEDNESDAY, APRIL 10, 2024

Eun Young Choi, Deputy Assistant Attorney General, U.S. 
  Department of Justice..........................................     2
Kevin J. Kurland, Deputy Assistant Secretary for Export 
  Enforcement, Department of Commerce............................     4
James R. Mancuso, Assistant Director, Global Trade and 
  Investigations Division, Homeland Security Investigations, 
  Department of Homeland Security................................     6

                     Alphabetical List of Witnesses

Choi, Eun Young:
    Testimony....................................................     2
    Prepared statement...........................................    33
Kurland, Kevin J.:
    Testimony....................................................     4
    Prepared statement...........................................    42
Mancuso, James R.:
    Testimony....................................................     6
    Prepared statement...........................................    50

                                APPENDIX

Response to post-hearing questions submitted for the Record
    Mr. Kurland..................................................    55

 
                 IMPROVING EXPORT CONTROLS ENFORCEMENT

                              ----------                              


                       WEDNESDAY, APRIL 10, 2024

                                     U.S. Senate,  
                       Subcommittee on Emerging Threats and
                                        Spending Oversight,
                    of the Committee on Homeland Security  
                                  and Governmental Affairs,
                                                    Washington, DC.
    The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 3:05 p.m., in 
room SD-342, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Margaret 
Hassan, presiding.
    Present: Senators Hassan [presiding], Rosen, Blumenthal, 
Ossoff, Romney, Lankford, and Scott.

             OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR HASSAN\1\

    Senator Hassan. Good afternoon. This hearing will come to 
order. I want to welcome our very distinguished panel of 
witnesses, and thank you for appearing today to discuss what 
your agencies are doing to enforce export controls, and how 
Congress can enhance enforcement efforts to prevent our 
adversaries from illegally acquiring advanced technology.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \1\ The prepared statement of Senator Hassan appears in the 
Appendix on page 31.
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    I also want to thank Ranking Member Romney and his staff, 
and the ranking member will be here shortly. We are in the 
middle of votes, but I want to thank them for working with us 
on this hearing and the months of staff oversight that have led 
up to today. I appreciate our continued partnership to address 
emerging threats to our Nation.
    To our witnesses, I look forward to hearing from each of 
you about trends in export control violations, your agency's 
unique role in enforcement, and how better agency coordination 
can help prevent our adversaries from accessing sensitive 
technologies. We look forward to hearing more about actions 
that Congress can take to prevent advanced technologies from 
flowing to bad actors while still working to maintain the 
United States' innovation edge and our place at the center of 
the world's economy.
    By breaking our expert control laws and acquiring sensitive 
U.S. technologies, our adversaries can grow their military and 
cyber capabilities. This represents a considerable threat to 
the United States' national security. This is why over the past 
few years, there have been significant efforts to improve U.S. 
export controls as authorities work to constrain efforts by 
countries like China to acquire sensitive dual-use 
technologies.
    This focus is important, and I have been glad to see the 
administration consistently roll out updated guidance in export 
controls for emerging technologies. However, there is always 
more work to do. It is incumbent on Congress to ensure the 
effectiveness of actions taken by the Executive Branch, 
especially as it relates to inter-agency coordination.
    I look forward to hearing from all of our witnesses about 
their efforts to enforce expert controls and how Congress and 
the Federal Government can work together to keep the American 
people safe, secure, and free.
    I will recognize Senator Romney in when he returns from 
voting for his opening statement. But what I thought I would do 
is get us started on testimony, and then when he comes, we can 
break for his opening statement. It is the practice of the 
Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs Committee (HSGAC) to 
swear in witnesses. If you will all please stand and raise your 
right hand.
    Do you swear that the testimony you give before this 
Subcommittee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing 
but the truth, so help you, God?
    Ms. Choi. I do.
    Mr. Kurland. I do.
    Mr. Mancuso. I do.
    Senator Hassan. Thank you very much, and please be seated. 
Our first witness today is Eun Young Choi. Ms. Choi is the 
Deputy Assistant Attorney General (DAAG) in the National 
Security Division (NSD) at the Department of Justice (DOJ). 
Before overseeing export controls at the National Security 
Division, Ms. Choi was the inaugural director of the National 
Cryptocurrency Enforcement Team. In this role, she set 
strategic priorities to address crimes involving 
cryptocurrencies and digital assets.
    Welcome, Ms. Choi, you are recognized for your opening 
statement.

   TESTIMONY OF EUN YOUNG CHOI,\1\ DEPUTY ASSISTANT ATTORNEY 
              GENERAL, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE

    Ms. Choi. Good afternoon, Chair Hassan, and distinguished 
staff of the Subcommittee. I appreciate the opportunity to 
testify here today. I joined the National Security Division 
this past July after spending over a decade at the Department 
of Justice, eight years of which I spent as an Assistant United 
States Attorney (AUSA) for the Southern District of New York, 
focusing primarily on cyber investigations, including those 
implicating national security. Just before joining NSD, as you 
mentioned, I was the inaugural director of the National 
Cryptocurrency Enforcement Team, which focuses on the criminal 
use of digital assets.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \1\ The prepared statement of Ms. Choi appears in the Appendix on 
page 33.
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    The work of NSD is increasingly focused on responding to 
the evolving and dynamic threats posed by sophisticated nation-
state actors such as China, Russia, Iran, and North Korea. 
These countries have sought to acquire sensitive technologies, 
including not only military hardware, but also emerging 
technologies such as advanced computing and autonomous vehicle 
capabilities, as well as the components upon which these 
technologies are built, for instance, semiconductors and 
microelectronics.
    Such technology in the hands of our adversaries, risk 
undermining us and allied military capabilities. It can also be 
exploited by repressive regimes to conduct surveillance of 
civilian populations suppressed descent, and enable human 
rights abuses.
    Enforcing our export controls and sanctions laws is 
critically important to countering these threats to our natural 
security and requires interagency, international, and private 
sector cooperation. The Justice Department plays a central role 
in those efforts, investigating and prosecuting criminal 
violations of those laws alongside our law enforcement and 
interagency partners.
    This interagency partnership is at the heart of the 
Disruptive Technology Strike Force (DTSF), which was 
established in February 2023, under the leadership of NSD in 
the Commerce Department's Bureau of Industry and Security 
(BIS), and is designed to pursue enforcement actions against 
those who engage in the illicit transfer of emerging 
technologies. The Strike force consists of 15 cells located 
across the country, made up of local Federal prosecutors and 
agents from four agencies, including the two represented here 
today, the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) and the 
Defense Criminal Investigative Service (DCIS).
    In close partnership with NSD's Counterintelligence and 
Export Control Section (CES), these local cells investigate and 
prosecute companies and individuals who violate U.S. laws 
governing the transfer of technology. Their work is supported 
by an inter-agency team of analysts who coordinate case leads 
and identify opportunities to generate new leads.
    Since May 2023, the Strike Force has investigated and 
charged 16 cases across seven cells, and has secured guilty 
pleas from four defendants on exports, smuggling, and money 
laundering charges.
    These cases include the arrest of a defendant who allegedly 
was engaged in a year's long scheme to illegally send sensitive 
technology, including semiconductors to a Russian entity with 
ties to the Russian military and the Federal Security Service 
(FSB), using a network of transshipment points in Hong Kong and 
other countries to try to evade tighter export controls put 
into place Following Russia's unlawful invasion of Ukraine.
    The Strike Force also announced charges against four 
Chinese nationals who allegedly smuggled U.S.-origin items that 
could be used in the production of unmanned aerial vehicles 
(UAVs), ballistic missile systems, and other military-end uses 
through the use of front companies in China and Hong Kong for 
the benefit of the Iranian armed forces.
    We recently marked the one-year anniversary of the Strike 
Force by bringing together the local cells to Phoenix, and 
holding a summit focused on case studies, best investigative 
practices, briefings on cutting edge technologies, and one-year 
reports of their efforts.
    The work of the Strike Force builds upon the success of the 
Task Force KleptoCapture to capture, an inter-agency task force 
dedicated to enforcing sanctions, export and trade 
restrictions, that the United States has levied in response to 
the Russian invasion.
    The task force's successes to date include seizing, 
restraining, or obtaining forfeiture judgments against almost 
$700 million worth of assets belonging to Russian oligarchs and 
others who unlawfully supported the Russian regime and invaded 
U.S. economic countermeasures, and charging more than 70 
individuals and five corporate entities accused of sanctions 
evasion, export control violations, money laundering, and other 
crimes, many of whom have been arrested in more than a half 
dozen countries.
    To that end, we have been leveraging our international 
partnerships to follow leads, track down perpetrators, and make 
arrests around the globe. Curtailing the flow of sensitive 
technology to our adversaries is a global problem and it 
demands a global response.
    Finally, private sector partnership is critical to our 
work. Companies are on the front lines when it comes to export 
controls and sanctions. Their decisions as to how, where, and 
with whom to do business can be just as important as our 
criminal enforcement actions.
    I appreciate the opportunity to discuss these issues with 
you and would be happy to answer any questions.
    Senator Hassan. Thank you very much for your testimony. 
Senator Romney, we just started testimony. We can go through 
with it or you can make your opening statement.
    Senator Romney. Oh, please continue.
    Senator Hassan. OK. Thank you. Our next witness is Kevin 
Kurland. Mr. Kurland is the Deputy Assistant Secretary for 
Export Enforcement at the Bureau of Industry and Security at 
the Department of Commerce.
    He previously served as the Deputy Chief of Staff for the 
Undersecretary for the Bureau of Industry and Security. Before 
joining the Bureau of Industry and Security, he worked as an 
international trade analyst at a U.S.-based law firm.
    Welcome, Mr. Kurland. You are recognized for your opening 
statement.

 TESTIMONY KEVIN J. KURLAND,\1\ DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY FOR 
           EXPORT ENFORCEMENT, DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE

    Mr. Kurland. Chair Hassan, Ranking Member Romney and 
distinguished Members of the Subcommittee. Thank you for 
inviting me to testify in the Commerce Department's ongoing 
efforts to enforce U.S. export controls.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \1\ The prepared statement of Mr. Kurland appears in the Appendix 
on page 42.
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    I currently serve as the Deputy Assistant Secretary for 
Export Enforcement at the Commerce Department's Bureau of 
Industry and Security. When Congress passed the Export Control 
Reform Act of 2018 (ECRA), it provided BIS with robust 
regulatory as well as administrative and criminal enforcement 
authorities that export enforcement leverages every day to 
protect U.S. national security.
    At Export Enforcement, our talented law enforcement agents 
and analysts are focused on a singular mission to keep our 
country's most sensitive technologies out of the world's most 
dangerous hands. Thanks to the authorities granted under ECRA, 
we have powerful tools to identify, disrupt, and investigate 
any violations of our controls. No Federal agency, and quite 
frankly, no other country has so expansive a toolkit to enforce 
export control rules.
    At no point in history has export controls been more 
central to our national security than right now. The most 
recent annual threat assessment published by the intelligence 
community (IC) reaffirms that nation-state actors, especially 
China, Russia, Iran, and North Korea, are the most pressing 
threats. It also identifies transnational threats that can 
result from the misuse of disruptive technologies like 
artificial intelligence (AI).
    Accordingly, Export Enforcement's mission is laser focused 
on preventing sensitive U.S. technologies from being used for 
malign purposes by these nation-state actors. We do this in 
three primary ways: prioritization of our enforcement efforts 
on the most pressing threats, expansion of our partnerships at 
home and abroad, and aggressive enforcement of our controls.
    My full testimony provides additional details on each of 
these lines of effort, but I would like to highlight a few key 
initiatives and actions that illustrate our effectiveness. 
First, we have prioritized our analytical and investigative 
work to match the evolving threat environment. We have updated 
our procedures for initiating enforcement leads and opening 
investigations to focus on the technologies, end users, and end 
uses of most concern.
    We have been responsible for the addition of significant 
numbers of Chinese, Russian, and Iranian procurement-related 
parties to the Entity List, including ones announced just this 
morning. We conducted over 1,500 end use checks last year in 
over 60 countries, the highest number ever with the 
overwhelming majority targeting Chinese, Russian, and Iranian 
procurements, and transshipments of concern.
    Second, to expand the effectiveness of our robust 
enforcement authorities, we have partnered with industry and 
academia, other agencies, including the intelligence community, 
and like-minded countries to prevent diversion. We work closely 
with companies and universities to ensure they understand our 
rules and to warn them of illicit procurement efforts.
    We launched the Disruptive Technology Strike Force, which 
BIS and DOJ co-lead in partnership with Homeland Security 
Investigations (HSI), FBI, and DCIS to prevent nation-state 
actors from illicitly acquiring our most sensitive technologies 
to advance their authoritarian regimes and facilitate human 
rights abuses.
    We established export enforcement coordination mechanisms 
with Canada, the European Union (EU), Five Eyes, and G7 
counterparts, and we organized a Disruptive Technology 
Protection Network with Japan and South Korea to replicate the 
Disruptive Technology Strike Force model abroad.
    Third, we have aggressively enforced our controls in a way 
that imposes real costs on those who seek to violate export 
controls and undermine U.S. national security. Our criminal 
enforcement efforts with DOJ last fiscal year (FY) resulted in 
the highest number of criminal convictions and number of months 
in prison on record.
    On the administrative side, we resolved or imposed the 
highest number of administrative cases, denial orders, and 
temporary denial orders, including the largest stand-alone 
administrative penalty in BIS history; a $300 million penalty 
against Seagate for continuing to ship millions of hard disc 
drives to Huawei, a party on our Entity List, without BIS 
authorization.
    My testimony provides additional examples of high-profile 
cases dismantling illicit procurement networks involving China, 
Russia, and Iran, as well as of firearms traffickers.
    Let me close by reaffirming that the work of our talented 
staff of 200 agents and analysts in partnership with industry, 
other agencies, and international counterparts has never been 
more important, and is achieving significant results that 
directly protect U.S. national security through aggressive 
enforcement of U.S. export controls.
    I thank the Subcommittee for its support and look forward 
to your questions.
    Senator Hassan. Thank you very much, Mr. Kurland. Our third 
witness is James Mancuso. Mr. Mancuso is the Assistant Director 
of the Homeland Security Investigations, Global Trade and 
Investigations Division, and Director of the National 
Intellectual Property Rights Coordination Center. Before his 
current role, Mr. Mancuso served as special agent in charge for 
HSI Baltimore. He also has served as the HSI attache to the 
United Kingdom and Ireland.
    Welcome, Mr. Mancuso. You are recognized for your opening 
statement.

 TESTIMONY OF JAMES R. MANCUSO,\1\ ASSISTANT DIRECTOR, GLOBAL 
     TRADE AND INVESTIGATIONS DIVISION, HOMELAND SECURITY 
        INVESTIGATIONS, DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY

    Mr. Mancuso. Chair Hassan, Ranking Member Romney, and 
distinguished Members of the Subcommittee, thank you for the 
opportunity to appear before you today to discuss export 
enforcement, and the vital role Homeland Security Investigation 
plays as it stands at the forefront of U.S. 
counterproliferation investigations (CPI), and the enforcement 
of our nation's export statutes.
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    \1\ The prepared statement of Mr. Mancuso appears in the Appendix 
on page 50.
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    The enforcement of export control laws has been a critical 
element of U.S. national security dating back to 1789 when the 
first U.S. Congress and President George Washington created the 
United States Custom Service to interdict contraband under the 
United States, collect duties, and enforce our fledgling 
nation's trade laws. HSI formed under the Homeland Security Act 
of 2002 remains steadfast in its 234-year-old mission of 
enforcing our nation's export control laws.
    HSI is a principal investigative component of the U.S. 
Department of Homeland Security (DHS), enforcing more than 400 
Federal criminal statutes. The mission of HSI is to 
investigate, disrupt and dismantle transnational criminal 
organizations (TCOs) and national security threats seeking to 
exploit the customs and immigration laws of the United States.
    HSI consists of more than 6,800 special agents assigned to 
235 domestic field offices, 93 international offices in 56 
countries. HSI is designated as the primary law enforcement 
agency charged with investigating violations of U.S. export 
laws related to military items, controlled dual-use goods, and 
sanctioned or embargoed countries.
    I currently serve as the Assistant Director of the HSI 
Global Trade Division and the Director of the National 
Intellectual Property Rights Coordination (IPR) Center. The 
Global Trade Division provides oversight support for 
investigations of U.S. import and export laws to ensure 
national security, protect the public's health and safety, stop 
predatory and illegal trade practices, and prevent sensitive 
U.S. technologies and weapons from reaching transnational 
criminal organizations and foreign adversaries.
    Global trade components include the Counterproliferation 
Investigations Unit, the Counterproliferation Mission Center, 
located in Huntsville, Alabama, and two whole-of-government 
centers; the IPR Center, and the Export Enforcement 
Coordination Center (E2C2).
    HSI through its CPI program, brings to bear significant 
resources against sophisticated illicit procurement networks, 
which operate globally on behalf of transnational criminal 
organizations and other malign nation-states attempting to 
acquire U.S. military items and control dual-use goods. HSI's 
broad authorities combined with the extensive global footprint, 
has allowed its special agents to forge partnerships with 
domestic and international law enforcement communities. This is 
proving critical when illicit procurement networks exploit 
vulnerabilities in the global supply chain to circumvent laws 
for the purpose of illegally obtaining controlled goods and 
technologies.
    Combating the illegal export and proliferation of sensitive 
technology equipment and weapons is an operational priority. 
Last year, the CPI program initiated over 1,500 investigations, 
made nearly 700 criminal arrests, worked with the Department of 
Justice to secure 371 indictments and 292 convictions, clearly 
demonstrating HSI unwavering commitment to national security.
    The Export Enforcement Coordination Center was created in 
2010 by Executive Order (EO) and serves as the primary forum 
within the Federal Government for executive departments and 
agencies to coordinate and enhance their export enforcement 
activities. HSI serves as the executive agency designated for 
the administration of E2C2, and is responsible to house, lead, 
manage, and fund the initiative.
    The E2C2 two provides a whole-of-government approach to 
enforcement by ensuring inter-agency coordination, promoting 
multi-agency collaboration, and minimizing duplicative efforts 
and strengthening the critical link between law enforcement, 
the U.S. intelligence community, and export licensing entities. 
As a result of these partnerships, approximately 15,000 
deconfliction requests have been processed by the E2C2 since 
becoming operational in 2012.
    Export enforcement is critical to achieving our national 
security and foreign policy goals. HSI through its CPI program 
is uniquely positioned to effectively work with its partners in 
a unified effort to enforce our nation's export control laws.
    I appreciate your interest in this important topic and look 
forward to your questions. Thank you.
    Senator Hassan. Thank you all three for your excellent 
testimony.
    We are going to proceed to questions now, and I will start 
with a set of questions, and then turn it over to Senator 
Romney while I go vote.
    To all three of our witnesses in your testimony, you each 
highlight the important and unique role that your agencies play 
in enforcing us export controls. Your agencies are working hard 
to protect our national security, but unfortunately, our 
adversaries are nimble, and they are constantly finding new 
ways to circumvent U.S. export controls.
    Just this week, we saw concerning new reports that show how 
Iran is utilizing U.S. technology in weapons that it uses and 
exports to extremist groups and other hostile actors around the 
globe. I would like to hear about the new tactics that 
adversarial States like China, Russia, or Iran are using to 
avoid U.S. enforcement efforts and illegally obtain sensitive 
advanced technologies. Ms. Choi, we can start with you.
    Ms. Choi. I think it is important to recognize, and I 
appreciate that question, the interconnected nature of many of 
these adversaries. One way to think about it is for countries 
such as Russia and Iran, where U.S. economic countermeasures 
are quite comprehensive, they have incredibly robust 
procurement networks that involve shipment points in the use of 
front companies across the world, including in jurisdictions 
where it's sometimes difficult to hold people criminally 
accountable, such as, for instance, in our view China and Hong 
Kong, along with some of in the recent months since or in the 
recent years now, since the start of the unlawful invasion of 
Ukraine the countries that surround Russia, right?
    I think one of the trends we are seeing is just how robust 
these procurement networks are, and we are doing the best that 
we can to try to find from the DOJ's perspective instances 
where we can identify willful participants in these procurement 
networks and holding them accountable to ensure that we can 
disrupt their ongoing flow of goods.
    Senator Hassan. Thank you. Mr. Kurland.
    Mr. Kurland. Madam Chair, what I would say is, we are 
focused on the activities of nation-state actors like China, 
Russia, Iran, and particularly their acquisition of advanced 
technologies, disruptive technologies, like AI, biotech, 
advanced computing, and quantum.
    I think what is important to understand is these countries 
have both the intent and the resources to seek to acquire these 
items through any means necessary. That is what we are seeing 
on a day-to-day basis, whether it is licit acquisition, or 
illicit acquisition through cyber exfiltration, through theft, 
through the use of shell companies, through transshipments that 
is through shell companies.
    This is a whole-of government-effort where they have 
resources, and maybe in the case of China, almost unlimited 
resources, to seek to acquire these goods. What we are doing as 
an interagency is, we are fighting back by basically leveraging 
the authorities and resources that we have across the 
interagency through this Disruptive Technology Strike Force 
model.
    The idea is how do we get together Commerce, and HSI and 
FBI analysts, to identify how our adversaries are seeking to 
illicitly acquire those items, and then get prosecutors and 
investigators in cells all across the country to prioritize 
enforcement actions against those activities.
    We have had a significant amount of success just in the 
first 15 months that the Strike Force has been in effect. 
Sixteen criminal cases have been brought. Just last month we 
had one involving a Google employee who was stealing AI 
software and technology to take it back to China. Their whole-
of-government response requires us to be as similarly nimble 
and active to share our limited resources and our comprehensive 
authorities to go after those threats.
    Senator Hassan. Thank you for that. Mr. Mancuso.
    Mr. Mancuso. Much like my colleagues here at the table 
expressed, it is a whole-of-government approach, and that is 
one of the things at the E2C2 where we really rely on each 
other's unique authorities and, and different investigative 
methodologies and strategies to attack this problem set. I will 
go to a different direction and talk a little bit about 
partnership engagement with private industry. At the E2C2, we 
are regularly----
    Senator Hassan. I want to just stop you for a minute 
because what I was trying to get at was how China, Russia, and 
Iran are trying to avoid our enforcement effort. Then I want to 
move into the topic about kind of how we are responding to 
that.
    Mr. Mancuso. Sure. When we are talking about the relentless 
efforts of our adversaries, they are constantly attempting to 
acquire these components, this innovation, this creation, this 
technology, and it's important for the government to have that 
conversation with industry. No one knows their customer base 
like private industry.
    When they are receiving a one-off request, when they are 
receiving something outside their normal supply chain and their 
red flags kind of go up, that is when we need to have an honest 
conversation with them. We have the ability, a two-way 
conversation, not just a one-way conversation with the 
government.
    We start there, and then when we receive intelligence or 
referrals from our private industry partners that this may be a 
request from a bad actor, that is when law enforcement is 
involved. That is when we work with our industry partners and 
all the agencies, and then we do what we do best. We 
investigate that allegation.
    Senator Hassan. OK. Thank you. Mr. Mancuso. Another 
question for you, and then I will turn it over to Senator 
Romney. As you know, many of our foreign partners rely on their 
customs agencies to enforce export controls. Frequently, those 
customs agencies are not law enforcement agencies, and they may 
not have the authority to take direct action against criminals. 
As a result, there may be delays in turning intelligence into 
enforcement actions.
    How does this situation impact Homeland Security 
Investigations' operations? How could Congress better enable 
HSI to act against international criminal organizations that 
break our export control laws?
    Mr. Mancuso. Thank you for that question. The subject of 
international overseas customs officers is very dear to me. I 
had the opportunity, the privilege, to serve as the attache to 
the United Kingdom (UK) at the embassy in London for five 
years.
    HSI has invested a tremendous amount of resources and 
efforts into a very healthy overseas footprint. And what it's 
allowed us to do is strategically align ourselves in different 
regions with our international partners to combat this.
    Now, as legacy customs officers, I understand the 
challenges of working with our customs partners. One of the 
things I would say is we as HSI have looked at threats and we 
have been able to realign our resources to address today's 
threats. For example, we now have four HSI personnel in HSI 
Taipei. That was a strategic decision we made as an agency to 
counter the threat from China.
    Conversely, in HSI Bucharest, we now have a presence there 
before the Russian invasion of Ukraine. They were working, 
spending an incredible amount of time, hand in hand with their 
Ukrainian customs counterparts recovering weapon systems from 
the battlefield, exploiting those weapon systems to see are 
there U.S. components in those, and if so, how do they get 
there? It is an incredible challenge.
    Thank you for your interest in this. How could you help? I 
think one of the ways you could help would be ensuring that HSI 
in our FY 2025 budget, HSI is fully funded, therefore giving us 
the strategic ability to adjust resources internationally. The 
ability to turn on a dime and pivot, not just today's threats, 
but the threats tomorrow and five years down the road.
    Thank you for just that topic.
    Senator Hassan. Thank you. I will return to this in another 
round of questioning with our other witnesses. Senator Romney.
    Senator Romney. I am going to yield to my colleague, 
Senator Scott, who has a hard stop on the other end.

               OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR SCOTT

    Senator Scott. I want to thank the Chair and Ranking 
Member, for hosting this hearing. Thanks each of you for being 
here. Thank you for what you do.
    Mr. Kurland, I personally do not believe that the United 
States should be doing any business with Communist China Party 
(CCP). The CCP is not an honest trade partner. Just recently, 
we learned more details about American business executives 
being trapped in China with an exit ban just for civil 
litigation business disputes for as little as $7,000.
    They steal our intellectual property, use non-market 
economic practices to destroy our businesses, harness our 
technology and innovation for their military to defeat us, or 
to make the world dependent on Chinese-run technology. They cut 
corners at every turn, from the labor they use, to poisons they 
put in their foods that they normally export to America. Every 
U.S. dollar spent there supports the CCP's military and its 
horrific human rights violations based on the BIS count country 
report for China.
    In 2022, only seven percent of export licenses for tangible 
items, technology, and software were denied. A whopping 3,249 
were approved, and another 980 were returned without action. 
Approvals for licenses to export to China to remain at 
historically high levels. Do you think this is an approval 
rating that we should be comfortable with?
    Mr. Kurland. Senator Scott, first of all, let me say that I 
share your concerns about China's illicit procurement of U.S. 
technology, particularly to support its destabilizing military 
modernization programs and mass surveillance programs.
    I am on the export enforcement side of the house not the 
export administration side of the house that does the 
licensing. What I can tell you is, on our side, our team is 
focused on preventing and detering China from illicitly 
acquiring technology to support these destabilizing programs. 
It is why we have stood up the Disruptive Technology Strike 
Force.
    We have been using the administrative enforcement authority 
that we have under the Export Control Reform Act in an 
aggressive manner. We have imposed the highest stand-alone 
civil penalty in our history just this past year against a 
party that was selling hard disk drives to a party on our 
Entity List called Huawei a $300 million penalty. We have 
imposed the most temporary denial orders in our history in just 
the past year.
    In addition, we continue to aggressively use our Entity 
List to prevent China from getting access to key technologies. 
There are now over 800 companies, Chinese companies, that are 
already on the Entity List in addition to six that we are 
adding tomorrow. They were announced this morning, four of 
which are involved with providing AI chips to China's military 
modernization programs. They are going on the list tomorrow in 
addition to two additional Chinese parties along with United 
Arab Emirates (UAE) counterparts that were providing components 
to the Russian and Iranian UAV programs.
    Last, I will say we have been working with our interagency 
colleagues and in particular Financial Crimes Enforcement 
Network (FinCEN) to receive from financial institutions 
suspicious activity reports that we can also action into 
enforcement leads with regard to China's evasion of our 
controls. We are systematically focused on preventing China 
from getting access to those technologies using all of the 
authorities that we have been authorized.
    Senator Scott. If you look at the numbers, it seems like 
there is a basic presumption of approval rather than a denial. 
The denials is, it seems, like it is an anomaly. Do you believe 
that there should be reforms to the BIS review process so there 
is going to be better parameters in place to effective 
presumption of denial as opposed to the assembly baked in 
presumption of approval?
    Look, and we also know the hardware's only as good as what 
it is running on it, but it seems BIS list is porous and clunky 
to deal with the panoply of threats that should be addressed 
for export limitations.
    So No. 1 is, do you think we ought to have presumption of 
denial with anything with regard to China? No. 2 is, how do you 
consider software for inclusions on the list?
    Mr. Kurland. Senator every license application that goes 
through the Commerce system gets reviewed by the Department of 
Commerce, the Department of State, the Department of Energy 
(DOE), and the Department of Defense (DOD), and also gets 
intelligence information added to it. There is a fully informed 
decision that is being made by an interagency body on each one 
of those activities.
    Each one of those licenses are reviewed de novo, if you 
will, on their own merits based on review or a refresh of 
information that the Department of Commerce and our interagency 
colleagues have in terms of determining whether or not this is 
a reliable recipient of U.S. items. That is the basis on which 
those licenses are reviewed. In terms of software and----
    Senator Scott. Still a pretty big number, right?
    Mr. Kurland. Certainly, Senator. There is a lot of trade 
between the United States and China, and so there is a lot of 
licenses that are received in the system, but it also shows 
that there is a lot of licenses that are subject to our control 
that are undergoing that four-agency scrutiny to determine 
whether or not there is a reliable recipient on the other end.
    Senator Scott. What about software?
    Mr. Kurland. Certainly software in terms of its control is 
something that we control in addition to commodities and 
technology itself. It is intangible, but it also goes through 
that same licensing process. It does not matter whether it is 
internet protocol (IP), or software, or a widget that you can 
hold, all of those transactions go through our system through 
all four agencies in order to make a determination on whether 
to approve.
    Senator Scott. Let us talk about TikTok. I saw a report 
this morning that that when you look at TikTok and compare it 
to Instagram, and you look at the messaging on Instagram versus 
TikTok, it is no if and buts about it, the Chinese government 
is targeting us. They are targeting our kids. They are 
targeting every citizen gets on there for the news. It is not a 
little bit biased. It is complete.
    There is nothing on TikTok about Tiananmen Square. There is 
nothing on about Tibet, and it all supports pro Hamas, attacks 
Israel. I mean, it is complete. It is not a little bit, it is 
complete.
    Knowing all that, do you believe that TikTok ought to be 
banned?
    Mr. Kurland. Senator, I am going to defer to my colleague 
from the Department of Justice on the topic of TikTok.
    Senator Scott. OK.
    Ms. Choi. Senator, I think that the Department of Justice 
and its leadership would agree with your characterization of 
the national security threats that are posed by TikTok. It is 
our view that TikTok and its parent company ByteDance are 
presenting a clear and present danger to our national security. 
We are in support of the Foreign Adversary Controlled 
Application Bill because it covers both TikTok and any 
attendant or subsequent applications that may have similar 
concerns with regard to foreign adversary control over our 
data.
    There are three different ways in which we think it's a 
concern for national security. First, in particular, TikTok, as 
you mentioned, collects fast amounts of personal data from more 
than 170 million Americans who actively use the platform. It 
also relies on a proprietary algorithm that was developed and 
maintained in China to determine what content to show, and what 
content not to show or to suppress to its users. Third, TikTok 
continues to rely on PRC-based source code and employees to 
support its U.S. operations.
    We think that the national security front in this regard is 
even more urgent because of the Chinese government's growing 
use and focus on its AI capabilities.
    Senator Scott. All right. Thank you.

              OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR ROMNEY

    Senator Romney [presiding.] Thank you, Senator Scott. I am 
going to ask some questions now, and then when the Chair 
returns, she will, I think, provide Senator Lankford the 
opportunity to speak, and then we will finally get to Senator 
Blumenthal.
    A couple of questions. There is a great deal being written 
about the degree of leakage, if you will, of things that are 
not supposed to be exported from our country or from our 
friends that are somehow getting in the hands of adversaries of 
one kind or another. How great a part do you think that is? Is 
this a tiny share of those things that are most sensitive, or 
is this a pretty significant problem that that we need to 
address?
    Any one of you can respond to that? Maybe I will go over to 
Mr. Mancuso, and I realize we have a lot of things in the list, 
and so some things they are not terribly interested in, but I 
am thinking particularly about large scale chips that go into 
or other key defense technologies. How much of that is getting 
through? Are we a sieve? Are we not really a sieve, but drip, 
drip, drip. What's the characterization of what's getting 
around our export controls?
    Mr. Mancuso. Thank you for that question. I can say this is 
the Assistant Director for Global Trade, I think the sheer 
volume of legitimate trade far outweighs the illicit trade that 
is going on. However, that small slice is of concern.
    What you have is you have folks at this table, all the 20 
partners at the E2C2, the intelligence community. All of us are 
completely laser-focused on retaining America's innovation, our 
creativity, our intellectual property, right? We developed the 
most advanced weapon systems of the world because of our 
ability to create this. We are the envy of the entire world. 
That also means our adversaries will stop at nothing to obtain 
this technology in these weapon systems.
    With that being said, we are focused on this issue. We are 
an investigative agency looking at these agencies attempting to 
disrupt and dismantle the flow of this technology. It concerns 
all of us. Like I said, we are focused. I am also concerned the 
day that they do not want our technology, the day that we are 
not the world leader because that means that they have 
surpassed us and they have become superior. All of us at this 
table are laser-focused, making sure that date never happens.
    Senator Romney. Yes. I think there's a recognition that 
with regards to AI, in particular. It is very difficult to 
control the software. Some software on AI has already been put 
on open source and represents, in my view, a huge breach of 
poor judgment or breach of good judgment. It is poor judgment.
    There are some who believe that the only way we are going 
to try and keep AI from being used in a most negative way is if 
we limit the supply of the chips necessary to operate AI. Are 
we able to do that successfully, or is it like, no, we really 
cannot.
    Mr. Kurland, do you have a sense of that?
    Mr. Kurland. At BIS, Senator, we have been imposing 
controls not only on entities that are involved in these types 
of diversionary attempts, but we have over the past year and a 
half rolled out a series of significant countrywide controls on 
China in addition to parties in not only that are resident 
there, but their actors that are sitting in third countries as 
well.
    It is a complex problem set, and certainly with regards to 
the semiconductor ecosystem where the vast majority of chips 
are produced offshore, trying to identify potential violators 
is something that we all here are working hard to do using all 
source intelligence, putting together analytical cells that are 
trying to identify those activities, working hand in hand with 
industry to both prevent on the front side and then, if there 
are violations, imposing penalties that are high enough to 
deter others is critical. We have been doing that as an 
interagency. We have issued over a dozen multi-sealed documents 
just in the past year and a half that are trying to get at this 
problem set: how do we get industry to harden their supply 
chains and their distribution Networks.
    Then, we are working globally, internationally. Chair 
Hassan mentioned some of the complications of our international 
partners in most of these jurisdictions. The licensing folks 
are actually disconnected from the enforcement folks, right, 
and that creates a bit of a gap because the enforcement folks 
do not know what's coming into the system that's being 
licensed, and the licensing folks do not actually know what's 
going out, which is the biggest vulnerability, the things that 
should be coming into the system that are not.
    We have been working very closely. We have attaches similar 
to HSI that are stationed now in 10 countries around the globe, 
trying to get our international partners to increase their 
capacity to identify and then take enforcement action in 
coordination with us.
    It's a challenge, but we are using all the tools at our 
disposal--industry, interagency, international--to try to get 
at making sure that these key technologies are not getting into 
those hands. Where we're identified it, we are either using 
criminal enforcement, administrative enforcement, or as I 
mentioned, just this morning, we added four companies to our 
Entity List in China that were explicitly diverting AI chips to 
the Chinese military weapons program so that we can alert 
industry and have them harden their supply chains when they are 
doing their due diligence of transactions.
    Senator Romney. What will the penalties be for those 
corporations that have been, if you will, shipping those chips 
into China?
    Mr. Kurland. Sure. They would be subject to criminal and/or 
administrative enforcement authority. Up to 20 years in jail, 
or $1 million per fine. Then on the administrative side, we 
have a statutory maximum of $365,000 or twice the value of each 
violation. And as in the case of Seagate that resulted in a 
$300 million penalty to set a deterrence level to say we expect 
companies to put in place internal compliance programs when 
they are screening their transactions.
    Then when they find a problem, they come to us voluntarily 
through what we call a voluntary self-disclosure to tell us 
because if they do not do it, and there's a willful action 
where there's knowledge, then we are going to take aggressive 
action to try to deter others from violating and also putting 
those that are investing in in compliance programs at a 
competitive disadvantage. We want to level that playing field 
at the same time.
    Senator Romney. Ms. Choi, who's been the most successful in 
being able to get the key technologies that are vital and we 
have endeavored to restrict? Is it China or is it Russia? We 
read stories about Russia being able to get technologies that 
they are using in Ukraine. At the same time, we read about 
China.
    Just today, we have read more stories about China getting 
advantage of our technologies. Are they equally effective or is 
one more effective than the other?
    Ms. Choi. Senator Romney, I would say that--I would refer 
you to the annual threat assessment which focuses on China's 
efforts in particular. I would say both of those countries pose 
concerns, but with regard to China, that threat assessment 
notes that China seeks to become a world science and technology 
(S&T) superpower, and to use this technological superiority for 
economic, political, and military gain.
    Among its various methods to do that, it includes means to 
acquire or steal IP, its cyber operations, and its illicit 
procurement. I would say China is laser-focused on trying to 
advance its science and technology program, and it's a focus 
for us at the Department of Justice.
    Senator Romney. Thank you. Senator Lankford.

             OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR LANKFORD

    Senator Lankford. Senator Romney, thank you. Thanks all 
your work. This is a lot of behind the scenes, very technical, 
very legal work that makes an enormous difference for the 
country. I really do appreciate the ongoing work on this.
    I have a question about Huawei. We have talked about for 
years in trying to be able to limit the proliferation of Huawei 
around the world and communication systems. Now in their 
partnerships for chips development and such, Huawei's become a 
hundred-billion-dollar company.
    The question is, are we being effective in limiting them? 
Can we show real progress in future limitations for Huawei 
getting into our ally systems and into American systems? How do 
we actually show that as a metric for how we are protecting us, 
our technology, and our allies? Anyone can step in on that.
    Mr. Kurland. Senator, as you know, Huawei is a significant 
national security concern for us. They have been on our Entity 
List since 2019.
    Senator Lankford. But they are still getting bigger.
    Mr. Kurland. Our Entity List is not necessarily aimed at 
preventing their growth, it's aimed at preventing them from 
misusing U.S. technology for their malign activities. I think 
we have a level of confidence that our entity listing, in 
addition to the use of the foreign direct product rule, has had 
a significant impact on their ability to leverage U.S. 
technology to conduct their activities.
    Where we have had an opportunity to enforce our controls 
against Huawei, we have done it. I have mentioned the Seagate 
case twice, but it's, I think, an example of how aggressively 
we are identifying violations. As it relates to Huawei, we have 
another case as well that we resolved back in 2021, I believe, 
involving Huawei. We are focused on preventing them from 
getting our tech.
    Senator Lankford. OK, I get it. Again, and I do not want to 
be flippant to say your focus is to be able to stop them from 
growing. I understand they are a Chinese company. They are 
going to continue to grow. Our focus is trying to keep them out 
of the systems of our allies, and to keep them from stealing 
our tech and our technology as well in the process.
    The concern all along has been the next Huawei, the other 
company that's coming up. Obviously, we have a lot of focus on 
Huawei at this point. Do we know at this point the next company 
that the Chinese are using to be able to basically do the exact 
same thing and to be able to go after technology? When you are 
doing the entities list, it is whack-a-mole all the time on it. 
How is that going as far as identifying those next companies?s
    Mr. Kurland. What I can say, Senator, on that question is 
we are lashed up with the IC on a daily basis. We are reviewing 
information. We are evaluating trends that are happening in 
China, and we are amending our controls, when necessary, both 
in terms of countrywide and entity wide, or entity-specific, I 
should say, to address those concerns.
    We have done that with regard to advanced computing, 
semiconductor manufacturing, a number of their key parties in 
terms of both equipment manufacturing and semiconductors 
themselves have been put on our Entity List. These actions do 
retard and delay their capabilities, but should we identify the 
next champion, certainly it is somebody we will actively review 
to determine whether or not they are involved in violation of 
our controls but also whether or not we need to take some other 
regulatory action against them to prevent their access to U.S. 
tech.
    Senator Lankford. This is just a process question that is 
getting the information out to different companies to let them 
know, hey, this entity is now on our Entity List, because 
that's changing all the time. Have you been able to evaluate 
how quickly companies are able to get the information 
processed? Is there an expectation to say within the next 15 
days, 30 days, or 90 days, that the changes are made in this? 
Because some of them may be in the middle of contracting in the 
process when they actually discover that. Walk me through the 
process of how that's actually distributed out to companies and 
how quickly that can turn around.
    Mr. Kurland. Sure. Senator, I will answer it two ways. One 
is from the government perspective, and then one is from the 
industry perspective. When we put parties on the Entity List, 
we are working hand in glove with U.S. Customs and Border 
Protection (CBP) and HSI to identify transactions the next day 
that would violate our regulations. Then we both have authority 
to detain those shipments, or if they are moving to have them 
redelivered. We have the ability to immediately take 
enforcement action against shipments that are moving in 
violations of our regulations.
    In terms of industry, obviously, they are published in the 
Federal Register. But one of the things that we have made 
available is something called the Consolidated Screening List, 
which is a list of all the proscribed parties that is updated 
in real time from Treasury, State, and Commerce that companies 
can simply just download into their IT systems.
    There are commercial systems as well, but it's a free 
service that we offer where companies can just download that 
immediately upon--and they get notification. They can sign up 
through our website for notifications of updates. They can 
download it so that their screening system immediately picks up 
those changes.
    Those are some of the ways that we are working--it's also a 
way for us to make sure that, in particular, small and medium 
sized enterprises, which may not have the resources to expend 
and buy commercial software for these entities, can simply just 
import that information for free into their IT system and have 
an automated way to screen their transactions
    Senator Lankford. For enforcement itself, and you talked 
about that there are criminal penalties, obviously, for selling 
to those on the entities list. How quickly do you start 
enforcing those penalties? Because you may put on the entities 
list today, there's a contract that they actually do 3 weeks 
from now. Is that a criminal penalty that comes?
    Again, not being flippant about it, trying to be able to 
find out how quickly we are able to actually move from, it's 
there to, we need to do enforcement to be able to stop and how 
quickly it moves to major fines versus this is a contact to you 
to say, stop, you may or may not have known.
    Ms. Choi. Senator Lankford, that's actually a very 
important part point. I would note that criminal enforcement is 
a very important part of the enforcement rubric. But with 
regard to penalties in particular, that does not happen until 
after we have adjudicated the criminal prosecution, right? We 
have to bring charges, there needs either to be a guilty plea 
or a trial, and then there has to be sentencing.
    The penalties are oftentimes, somewhat distant from the 
original sort of understanding of the problem. But there are 
many non-criminal sort of circumstance or examples in which 
that information could be helpful. For instance, as Mr. Kurland 
was explaining, if there was new information that was available 
to a company that may prohibit them from entering into that 
transaction, that's still disrupting a potential opportunity 
for there to be an export violation because we are looking for 
opportunities short of criminal prosecution to stop and disrupt 
that threat.
    Senator Lankford. Sure. Grateful to do that. Thank you. 
Thanks for the questioning time. I may follow up with you on 
some questions on university students that are foreign students 
here in the United States. That's a growing population. We are 
not going to try to cutoff all foreign students here, but there 
are challenges that are there when they are involved in 
research, and there may be the possible transfer of technology 
or information as well. I will try to follow up with some 
questions for that. Thank you.
    Senator Hassan [presiding.] Senator Blumenthal.

            OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR BLUMENTHAL

    Senator Blumenthal. Thank you, Senator Hassan, and Senator 
Romney, for your leadership on this Subcommittee. As you may 
know, I am Chair of the Permanent Subcommittee on 
Investigations (PSI). We are conducting an investigation into 
the flow of parts and components, semiconductors, chips, to 
Russia.
    I recently visited Russia, as a matter of fact, with 
Senator Blumenthal. In the course of a meeting with President 
Zelinski, he handed me a folder with documents, photographs, 
charts, showing me how prevalent American chips and other 
components are in Russian weapons that they have recovered on 
the battlefield. Our own military and intelligence community 
confirms that the flow is prevalent and pervasive.
    This issue is at one level, very complex and challenging. 
At the other level, it's very simple. This system is not 
working. This system is not working, and I want to know why. 
That's the purpose of the investigation we are conducting.
    Our Subcommittee's inquiry shows added--reflecting 
significant jumps in the export of products from four of the 
largest United States manufacturing companies, Intel, Texas 
Instruments, AMD, and Analog Devices to five countries 
neighboring Russia, Kazakhstan, Armenia, Georgia, Finland, 
Turkey. In recent years, exports to these countries increased 
by huge orders of magnitude between 2021 and 2022. For example, 
we found exports to Kazakhstan rose by more than 1,000 percent, 
and they are continuing to rise.
    Mr. Kurland, I am assuming that you are aware of these 
trends, the increased flow of United States technology to these 
countries, eventually becoming parts of Russian weapons used to 
kill Ukrainians. Correct?
    Mr. Kurland. That is correct, Senator.
    Senator Blumenthal. Have you asked the State Department or 
one of our agencies of government whether it's Treasury or some 
other country to bring increased pressure on these countries?
    Mr. Kurland. There is a whole-of-government effort, 
Senator, to bring pressure on these countries, particularly 
that are outside the coalition. We have a coalition of 39 
countries that have agreed to impose substantially similar 
controls on Russia. The vast majority of these shipments that 
you are referencing are coming from countries that are outside 
of the coalition; countries like China, UAE.
    Senator Blumenthal. I mentioned five countries that do not 
include China or UAE. I mentioned countries like Finland and 
Turkey. Finland is part of North Atlantic Treaty Organization 
(NATO). Turkey is part of NATO. Other countries depend on us. I 
am assuming that more can be done. You mentioned in your 
testimony, Mr. Kurland that we have been providing ``guidance'' 
on spotting red flags and implementing best practices to 
prevent diversion to private industry.
    What are those red flags and why aren't they working?
    Mr. Kurland. Sure. We have been working diligently with 
industry to provide them with as much information as we have 
about the evasion tactics of Russia. Some of those tactics are 
companies that did not exist prior to the invasion now exist 
and are receiving items that require some enhanced due 
diligence where they were receiving items unrelated from that.
    Senator Blumenthal. Let me just come right to the point.
    Mr. Kurland. Sure.
    Senator Blumenthal. Don't you agree that these American 
manufacturers have to know, looking at these trends, that 
something is awry here?
    Mr. Kurland. I think, Senator, that this is a complex 
supply chain, but industry needs to do more, and we are trying 
to do more. We are using our Entity List as aggressively as 
possible. I, personally, over the past few months, have signed 
out over 40 letters to the major distributors, manufacturers, 
and express carriers identifying----
    Senator Blumenthal. I have no question that you are doing 
your job, and you are doing it as well as you can, and you are 
doing it expertly and with consummate dedication. My question 
is, are the private companies reacting positively and promptly 
enough?
    Mr. Kurland. I think there is a general recognition that 
they need to do more. I share your concern that they need to do 
more----
    Senator Blumenthal. By general recognition, do you mean on 
their part or our part?
    Mr. Kurland. On their part. I have been personally talking 
with the major trade associations, with major companies. I know 
even our undersecretary has been reaching out. There's a 
recognition that these components are ending up in places that 
they shouldn't be.
    We need industry to do a better job of hardening their 
supply chains, and we are making specific asks of them to try 
to do that. Taking a look at these lists of companies and 
stopping voluntarily to sell to them. Putting together more 
effective distributor relationships so that they can track who 
the actual end user of these components are. There's a lot that 
they can do that we are encouraging them to do.
    Senator Blumenthal. I apologize for interrupting, but as 
you know, my time is limited. When you say you are encouraging 
them, as the saying goes, talk is cheap. There's the blunt 
instrument of criminal prosecution, which is very difficult to 
do. People can say, oh, well, we ought to prosecute them. But 
obviously, there's mens rea and intent, and all the 
difficulties of doing an effective prosecution.
    I was a prosecutor for quite a few years, not minimizing 
the difficulties, but there are not more effective instruments 
other than jawboning that can be brought to bear here on 
private industry or on the countries that are complicit because 
they are not completely immune to economic pressure and other 
kinds of pressure that has real world consequences in dollars, 
and cents, or otherwise?
    Mr. Kurland. We have increasingly been ratcheting up our 
controls. That is on the other side of the bureau, Senator. I 
am on the enforcement side of the house. I can speak 
specifically to how we are addressing the evasion of our 
controls as they relate to those that are in place, and that's 
why we are out talking with industry.
    We are giving them as much guidance as possible. We are 
providing them with lists. But as our controls change we will 
effectively enforce those controls as well.
    Senator Blumenthal. My time has expired, but I would 
appreciate an opportunity to follow up with you on these 
issues. Again, I appreciate the work that you are doing on this 
very difficult topic. Thank you. Thanks, Madam Chair.
    Senator Hassan. Thank you, Senator. Senator Rosen.

               OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR ROSEN

    Senator Rosen. Thank you, Chair Hassan, and of course, 
Ranking Member Romney for your hard work on this really 
important Committee. Thank you to the witnesses for being here 
and testifying today.
    I want to focus my questions on artificial intelligence, 
and of course, its potential role in aiding in our enforcement 
in this area, and so many others. Because one of the issues 
this Committee in particular has been focusing on is how 
government use of AI has the potential to dramatically improve 
how effective and efficient government is. Whether it's cutting 
waiting times for Americans seeking support from Federal 
agencies, Federal workers using data to root out fraud and 
focus their efforts on going after bad actors.
    To all of the witnesses. How can data analytics and AI 
tools improve export control enforcement, and where are your 
agencies in the development and the adoption of these type of 
tools for this purpose?
    We can start with you, Ms. Choi.
    Ms. Choi. Thank you for that question. The Department of 
Justice recognizes, as you do, Senator Rosen, that there's 
tremendous potential in the use of AI to improve the way in 
which we are defending our national security or protecting the 
American people. With regard to export controls in particular, 
I am sure that my colleagues at the table will be able to 
discuss more specifically the ways in which AI could be 
harnessed in the export control investigations portion of our 
type of our criminal prosecutions.
    From the Department of Justice perspective, we are making 
sure that we are looking at AI as a tool, especially when it 
comes to litigation, to see if there are ways in which we can 
use it to generate leads, but also to do the data analytics 
that we need to when it comes to evidence, when it comes to 
documents, including in the export control realm, because of 
the tremendous amount of documents, for instance, that are in 
other languages. Unfortunately, I can only speak a few.
    We want to make sure that prosecutors can understand and 
digest that evidence. I would note that you know, we are 
looking at also from the Emerging Technology Board and within 
the Department of Justice to ensure that we have safeguards so 
that we are using AI in this manner at the Department of 
Justice. That we can protect the rule of law and make sure that 
people's rights are not violated as a result.
    Senator Rosen. Thank you.
    Mr. Kurland. Senator, having access to AI is a critical 
function for us to do our job more efficiently and more 
effectively given the amount of data that we have available to 
us, whether it's classified, open-source.
    Government data is vast. The ability for AI to be able to 
synthesize that information for an analyst at a terminal and to 
be able to use that to predicate a law enforcement lead that 
would result in an identification of a violation would be 
incredibly powerful.
    I can say at the Department of Commerce, we do not have the 
resources at this point to be running AI in that manner. 
Currently we are running a pilot. But the money even that we 
are using for that pilot for AI is not in our base.
    We have asked in our Fiscal Year 2025 budget for a $3 
million down payment to keep this pilot running. But, I think 
we are in agreement with the study from Centers for Strategic 
and International Studies (CSIS) that talked about the 
infrastructure backbone for BIS to have an infusion of 
resources that could upgrade our IT capabilities, particularly
    Senator Rosen. IT modernization?
    Mr. Kurland. Yes.
    Senator Rosen. Thank you. I have a few other questions I 
want to ask. Please, Mr. Mancuso.
    Mr. Mancuso. That's a great question. In terms of what we 
are doing with HSI and looking at our threats overseas, folks 
that are trying to go ahead and steal our technology and our 
creativity, we go through as HSI, some of our customs 
counterparts are international partners, a tremendous amount of 
trade data. Looking for those anomalies in the trade data.
    Criminal networks are constantly shifting and adjusting 
their tactics to stay one step ahead. AI would potentially give 
us the ability to go through mass volumes of data and identify 
these one-off anomalies which could be an indication that 
there's a transshipment or an end user is going to repackage 
that and set it onto an adversary.
    It's interesting. It's a topic that's top of mind. In the 
President's latest Executive Order, we were named, the IPR 
Center, our part for helping out industry on the electoral 
property side. What we did is we commissioned a study with 
Michigan State universities in anti-counterfeiting and product 
protection.
    We are going to reach out to U.S. businesses and say two 
things. How can you harness the power of AI to protect your 
intellectual property, and what are the top threats to your 
organization from AI? These are things we are working on, I am 
excited to release.
    Senator Rosen. We will look forward to seeing that. But I 
want to talk in the time I have left about the dual-use 
technology investigations, because American firms, honestly, we 
are really at the forefront of the AI technology revolution. 
For the last few years, I led a Senate delegation to the 
Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas. Multiple companies 
unveiled to us their new semiconductor chips.
    Last year, the Biden administration announced restrictions 
on the export of AI chips and manufacturing equipment to China 
in order to limit China's access to advanced semiconductors 
related to AI.
    Mr. Mancuso, I will go to you. Given the rapid advancement 
in AI technology, the importance of the semiconductor chips in 
supporting the more powerful AI, these large language models, 
all this amount of data, what resources do you need to keep up 
with the expansion?
    Mr. Mancuso. Thank you for that question. There is no doubt 
that AI is evolving at a pace that's hard to keep up with. What 
we are doing at the E2C2 in this space is working with our 
partners here at the table and the 20 other partners, and in 
terms of resources and commitment. Thank you very much for 
that.
    Again, I would go back to the Fiscal Year 2025 budget and 
ensuring that HSI is funded to go ahead and give us the 
resources, and the flexibility to think strategically and to 
prepare for this, and to put resources in place to meet that 
challenge. Again, thank you for that, your leadership and 
interest in this topic.
    Senator Rosen. I am going to ask Mr. Kurland more broadly. 
What other dual-use technologies do you see as high risk? How 
should we help you as a Federal Government prioritize these 
technologies, because there are a lot out there? What do you 
need? How can we help?
    Mr. Kurland. Senator, thank you. We are really focused on 
the key disruptive technologies that have been identified by 
the intelligence community: AI, biotech, quantum, advanced 
compute.
    From our perspective, we believe that if we have more 
resources--as we have been able to demonstrate under the 
Ukraine Supplemental--when we have more analysts, we are able 
to identify more violations of our controls. When we have more 
attaches overseas, we are able to conduct more end use checks 
that identify diversionary activities, and those predicate our 
law enforcement leads.
    Senator Rosen. We have to partner AI with the common sense 
of humans.
    Mr. Kurland. Yes, exactly.
    Senator Rosen. Yes, thank you.
    Senator Hassan. Thank you, Senator Rosen. I do have some 
more questions, so I appreciate the witness's patience this 
afternoon. I appreciate the questions that my colleagues have 
asked as well.
    I want to go back to the question I left off on which was 
really about international cooperation. To Mr. Kurland and Mr. 
Mancuso, recent reporting noted that Russian manufacturers have 
been importing machine tools that are made in Taiwan, and then 
using those tools to produce weapons.
    Taiwan is a strategic U.S. partner and should be working 
with U.S. authorities to counter Russia. How can we get Taiwan 
and other international partners to be more proactive in 
countering Russia. Mr. Kurland, we will start with you.
    Mr. Kurland. Madam Chair, I think it's important to start 
with that Taiwan is a member of the Global Export Control 
Coalition, which means it has committed to imposing 
complementary controls as 38 other countries have done. It is a 
critical player in the global semiconductor supply chain and 
other key technologies like machine tools.
    Anybody that is a member of this coalition allows us to A, 
influence them because there is a need to harmonize controls, 
but also bring together our enforcement elements for 
cooperation and build their capacity. That's what we have been 
doing.
    I actually came back last month from Taiwan speaking with 
officials: how can we help them build their capacity for 
enforcement and implementation. We have an export control 
officer that is stationed there funded on a 1-year Ukraine 
Supplemental. We have asked the Congress in FY 2025 to actually 
make that position permanent. But we have a person that's 
working every day with the Taiwanese authorities to get them to 
increase their capacity, and they actually have done that. In 
February, they amended their controls. They now have controls 
on 77 pieces of machine tools.
    But that's the model that we are using with other close 
partners and allies. Which is, when you are part of the 
coalition, there's an expectation that you are going to keep 
pace with our changes in controls and that you are going to 
effectively enforce. We are working through our attaches 
overseas to help build that capacity.
    Senator Hassan. Thank you. Mr. Mancuso, anything to add to 
that question?
    Mr. Mancuso. I believe, it's a great question. Thank you. I 
believe earlier I discussed how HSI made a commitment to have 
HSI for HSI personnel stationed in Taipei. The mission there is 
to work alongside with their law enforcement, but it's also 
capacity building. It's also the greater partnership effort. 
It's sharing of best practices, and it's really being a good 
partner. That's what we are doing, HSI officers, agents 
overseas are doing. We are working hand in hand with our 
international partners. If it's important to them, it's 
important to us and vice versa.
    It is establishing these critical relationships on a global 
basis so we can all rely on the global community to combat this 
threat. We cannot do this alone. The United States clearly, and 
our partnership at the table, we cannot accomplish this alone. 
You have to rely on your committed global partners and then 
demonstrating by investing with our agents there, we are 
demonstrating our commitment to them and this in time will 
breed success.
    Senator Hassan. Thank you. Now I want to turn to kind of a 
follow-up on what Senator Blumenthal was asking you about. Ms. 
Choi, so we know how important it is that the private sector 
research institutions in academia share information with law 
enforcement about our adversary's various attempts to break 
export control laws and illegally gain access to critical U.S. 
technology.
    We understand how important it is that they share 
information with law enforcement and that private entities that 
engage in cutting edge research and development uphold the law, 
protect intellectual property. What is DOJ doing to coordinate 
with private entities to prevent violations of export control 
laws and stop adversaries from illegally accessing advanced 
technologies?
    Ms. Choi. Senator, I appreciate the question. The 
Department of Justice also believes that, companies are in the 
forefront of our efforts to protect national security in the 
ways that you have described. In a variety of different lines 
of effort, we have been engaging with companies in order to 
ensure that they are incentivized to come forward, be it 
through our voluntary self-disclosure policies, to notify the 
government when they see things that are happening within the 
confines of their business that would be of concern or 
potential criminal activity.
    We also think it's very important to provide them with the 
actionable intelligence that they can use to strengthen their 
own compliance systems because I think prevention is always 
going to be a better solution, be it in the export control 
realm or in cyber, when it comes to trying to protect your 
intellectual property.
    I know with regard to the export control, the Disruptive 
Technology Strike Force has been having a series of private 
sector engagements, including having fora in various large 
cities to try to bring industry that are in that area of 
jurisdiction to explain trends that are happening within that 
area and that industry.
    But in addition, we are ensuring that we have compliance 
notes, which we had discussed earlier. Again, actionable 
intelligence that companies can use to arm themselves. The flip 
side of that is when companies are willing participants in 
criminal evasion of our sanctions and export control laws and 
other criminal violations. We are focused on increasing and 
making more robust our corporate enforcement regime as well.
    Senator Hassan. Thank you. I have a few more questions, but 
I wanted to turn to Senator Romney, if you have more questions.
    Senator Romney. Yes. I am going to ask an open-ended 
question which is what you would recommend that we do, if 
anything, to reduce the flow of technology from the United 
States, particularly that which has been limited by export 
controls, that nonetheless is finding its hands in Russia, 
China, and other places, in part, because it's so critical now 
with AI.
    It has always been important, but now with AI, it's the 
national security implications of us not being able to manage 
the super semiconductors that are necessary for AI. It's really 
extraordinary. I wonder if I could offer suggestions. One is 
more coordination among different agencies in the United States 
whether we need to do a better job and establish some type of 
entity that does more coordination.
    Another alternative, which is putting more burden on the 
shoulders of the of companies. Chip manufacturers, I mean 
Intel, AMD, and so forth, Analog Devices. Given the fact that 
we just heard from Senator Blumenthal that there was 1,000 
percent increase in shipments to a neighbor of Russia of 
technology, which is ultimately clearly going to Russia.
    There could be a requirement that on particularly highly 
sensitive items, not all the items that we put export controls 
on, but in certain highly sensitive items that a corporation 
must track where it's gone and where it is, and be able to 
provide that information to somebody to say, all right, yes, 
this is where it is. If they do not do that, that we fine them 
heavily or provide the sanctions.
    I hate just finding more requirements for you guys and 
trying to say, well, we have to get more money to you, because 
we all know that dollars are hard to come by at the Federal 
Government level. How about, say, to corporations, if you are 
going to see a shipment something of high sensitivity to some 
nation that's not part of the coalition, then you have to track 
where it is and be able to report to us how much you have sent, 
to which company, and where those items have gone.
    That means putting people in that country, tracking it, 
determining through an audit, whether I am looking for what are 
the solutions to this, because it is not working now. There's a 
great effort on our part, but they are finding ways around it.
    So why don't we just go down the order that you each 
testified with any suggestions you have, as you know, very 
briefly, if you know. If you were a king for a day, what should 
we be doing differently than we are doing, legislatively, or 
other ways?
    Ms. Choi. Senator, with regard to your specific thought 
regarding the burden or the changing standards as it applies to 
corporations. I will defer to Mr. Kurland on that. I know you 
said that you understand that resources are scarce. If I could 
just illustrate one example of the resources that are required 
to do these sophisticated cases.
    In one sanctions case alone, I am thinking of there are 
multiple petabytes of data, which we had to analyze for one 
criminal case. We simply are at our wit's end when it comes to 
resourcing and doing the big data analytics, and we know our 
adversaries are doing with our data. We need to be able to do 
that and be armed to do that.
    I would have that in mind when you are thinking about 
resourcing in the Fiscal Year 2025. One other thing that's 
maybe not so obvious, but is very important to us, is the 
reauthorization of Section 702. It's absolutely vital to all 
the national security work that we do, but in particular, I 
think it's important to highlight that in certain instances, we 
have been able to glean insights into the illicit transfer of 
technology and goods to hostile foreign state actors for the 
use of that particular tool.
    We would be happy to give you more details in a classified 
setting, but that is incredibly vital to every single thing 
that we do day in, day out. Thank you.
    Mr. Kurland. Senator, I cannot respond to policy 
prescriptions. I am on the enforcement side. What I can commit 
to you is that if new actions are taken, we will commit to 
aggressively enforce those from our perspective that requires 
more analysts, more attache overseas, more agents that are 
working with DOJ to bring criminal cases.
    It gets back to that IT issue as well; better IT systems so 
that we can create efficiencies to identify these violators and 
then more quickly be able to bring those cases, whether it's a 
criminal case, whether it's an administrative case, whether 
it's an entity listing. We have the authorities. We have never 
worked better together as an interagency in terms of E2C2, 
Disruptive Technology Strike Force. We are working in a 
complementary manner and sharing those resources. But the more 
resources that we have, the more effective we can be.
    Senator Romney. Thank you.
    Mr. Mancuso. The important first step was, today, we are 
having a hearing highlighting the importance of this. No. 2, 
HIS, we are not a policy agency. We are not a regulatory 
agency. We are an investigative agency. As I have mentioned 
earlier, just ensuring that we have the resources to do what we 
do. We are, like I said, we have a very healthy global 
footprint, and we are working every day. The men and women of 
HSI are working with our international partners, and to 
continue that, I believe that again, is a recipe for success. 
Thank you.
    Senator Romney. Thank you. Madam Chair.
    Senator Hassan. Thank you very much, Senator Romney. I want 
to keep going at another aspect of this issue of how we work 
with private entities. As we have heard during this whole 
hearing, the Export Enforcement Coordination Center does really 
important work coordinating interagency enforcement efforts and 
ensuring that information is shared among Federal agencies.
    However, private entities don't have access to most US 
export data, making it more challenging for them to conduct due 
diligence and avoid working with bad actors who are trying to 
violate our export controls law. Is DHS considering ways in 
which it could share more data with U.S. companies with 
research institutions in academia to help them protect 
themselves against accidental violations of export controls.
    Mr. Mancuso. Thank you for that question. I think the 
answer is we are always evaluating what we are doing well 
against what we could be doing better. That's a question we ask 
ourselves every day, and we can never become complacent.
    We do have an aggressive industry outreach. We do have 
Project Shield America where we are actively speaking to 
thousands of companies every year. We are going to research 
universities; we are talking to them. That is one thing we are 
doing. Could we do it better? I am sure we always could.
    Senator Hassan. Yes. Again, this is not a question about 
better. I share all of my colleagues' respect and real 
gratitude for the work that all of you and the people you work 
with do. What I am trying to get at is, do we have a way of 
sharing actual data that these entities could use, or is DHS 
exploring it?
    Mr. Mancuso. Sure. In certain circumstances, but we are 
limited. Some of the law enforcement sensitive data that we sit 
on, and there are limitations, what we can legally share with 
our partners too. We share with private to the greatest extent 
possible. That is part of a two-way conversation, but there are 
limitations on what we can share and how we can share it. We do 
to the greatest extent possible, but there are limitations.
    Senator Hassan. OK. Ms. Choi, the Disruptive Technology 
Strike Force, which was created last year, works across Federal 
agencies to coordinate with global partners and enforce export 
controls. As the Strike Force continues into its second year, 
how should it expand its collaboration with more of our partner 
nations?
    Ms. Choi. Chair Hassan, that's an excellent question. We 
are trying to increase our international cooperation in a 
variety of ways. As was previously mentioned, there's an effort 
underway pursuant to the Camp David meeting between the 
President and leaders from Japan and South Korea to ensure that 
we are well equipped to help strengthen those other countries' 
export control regimes as well. Because export control regimes, 
at least from a criminal perspective, it's very important for 
our authorities to be aligned and for the violations to be of 
the same kind in order for us to have a maximum impact for 
disruption.
    We also have, as a matter of course, every criminal 
investigation that we have, we leverage the global footprint of 
both the Department of Justice and the international law 
enforcement agencies that we work with and their presence 
abroad in export control.
    Senator Hassan. OK. We heard earlier that just today, 
Commerce listed two UAE firms for supporting Russia and Iran's 
drone program. Is DOJ considering embedding personnel in 
hotspots for export control evasion, like the UAE, and if so, 
does the Strike Force need additional resources or authorities 
to do that?
    Ms. Choi. Senator Hassan, I do not know about the specifics 
of the UAE information that you just outlined. I would say I am 
not aware of a particular effort from DOJ to enhance its UAE 
presence on export controls. I will say I am aware of many 
different engagements with UAE on a variety of different 
issues, including export controls.
    Again, we can always do more with more. The extent that we 
would have further resources to allow for that travel and to 
build those partnerships, the muscle memory with our 
international partners, we would look forward to receiving 
that.
    Senator Hassan. OK, thank you. Mr. Kurland, earlier you 
mentioned that BIS would be adding six new entities to your 
agency list because they were providing AI tech to China. Can 
you tell the Subcommittee more about their efforts to undermine 
export controls? How egregious were the violations? What 
additional action should we be taking against those entities or 
individuals who are working for them?
    Mr. Kurland. Senator, there are four entities that will be 
listed tomorrow for seeking to acquire AI chips for China's 
military modernization program and military intelligence end 
users. Addressing China's whole-of-government approach to 
acquiring these advanced technologies is something that we are 
all focused on a day-to-day basis.
    It requires significant resources and analyst overseas. You 
were just mentioning attaches that are overseas. We currently 
are located in 10 countries, including UAE and key 
transshipment countries like Hong Kong and Taiwan, to prevent 
those types of diversions, and then to help us identify 
enforcement outcomes when those are identified.
    Senator Hassan. OK. I want to follow up with you. Maybe we 
will learn more tomorrow, but what we are really trying to get 
at is a sense of what these entities are doing, because that 
helps obviously inform us about what the next steps are and how 
we can be helpful. I am, again, out of time. Do you have any 
more questions? All right.
    I have one or two more, and I thank you guys again for your 
patience. Mr. Kurland, an end use check is when the Commerce 
Department physically inspects an export-controlled item in a 
foreign country to ensure that the item will not be used for 
illegal purposes after a request from the Commerce Department.
    Foreign governments have 60 days to allow U.S. inspectors 
to conduct end use checks in their jurisdictions. If a foreign 
government does not allow end-use checks within that timeframe, 
the Commerce Department can take away export licenses. How does 
the Office of Export Enforcement (OEE) share data with law 
enforcement regarding countries that delay end-use checks? How 
does interagency data sharing help inform sector-specific 
enforcement and private industry engagement?
    Mr. Kurland. Sure. Thank you. You explained the program 
perfectly, Madam Chair, in terms of our law enforcement 
investigators doing these end-use checks.
    First, let me say that the majority of our partners around 
the globe ask for a list of who we are going to do checks at, 
and many of them also participate on those checks. We currently 
have no issues with regard to conducting checks anywhere around 
the globe.
    We had an issue back in October 2022 that resulted in a 
change of our regulations, which you were referencing, as well 
as a policy that Assistant Secretary Axelrod issued that said 
that if a host government, in that case it was China, did not 
schedule a check within 60 days because we had a backlog, we 
would put them on our unverified list.
    Then our regulation change allowed us to move them to the 
Entity List, which basically imposes a license requirement on 
any item subject to our regulations if those delays continued. 
I am happy to report that based on that regulation change and 
the policy initiative, that it has spurred the government of 
China to eliminate the backlog and to continue to cooperate 
with us.
    At this point you know, we are not having any issue 
globally with conducting checks, and we have tools in place to 
spur foreign governments that might attempt to delay completion 
of those checks.
    Senator Hassan. That's good to hear. We have had a very 
comprehensive discussion, and I am very grateful for the three 
of you for spending so much time and sharing your expertise 
with us. I want to thank you for joining us today, but I also 
always like to give witnesses a chance to highlight any aspect 
of your work, in this case, on export control enforcement that 
we did not cover.
    If you feel like we have been comprehensive, you can say, 
``we are all set,'' but I just did not want to leave today 
without giving you each a brief chance just to touch on 
anything we have not gotten to today. I will start with you, 
Ms. Choi, and work right down the line.
    Ms. Choi. Thank you for that opportunity. I would just say 
that we remain very focused on export controls. I think we have 
covered a lot of topics today, and so I will probably cede the 
rest of my time. But certainly, I would just like to 
reemphasize that we appreciate your leadership, and yours 
Senator Romney and your focus on this particular issue.
    Senator Hassan. Thank you. Mr. Kurland.
    Mr. Kurland. Madam Chair, I would say that at Commerce, we 
continue to be singularly focused on protecting U.S. technology 
from being misappropriated by our adversaries.
    To the extent that we have an ability to do more if the 
Congress is able to provide us with additional resources from 
our FY 2025 budget request, in addition to requests that have 
been identified by non-governmental organizations (NGO's), in 
terms of the Kiev School of Economics (KSE), AEI, CSIS. They 
all have identified you know, the fact that if we have more 
analysts, we have more export control officers overseas, we 
have more agents, we have better IT systems, we can be more 
even more effective as we are laser-focused on this problem 
set.
    Senator Hassan. Thank you. Mr. Mancuso.
    Mr. Mancuso. I just want to say on behalf of the men and 
women of HSI, especially the folks in the CPI realm, all of our 
men and women at the E2C2, and in Huntsville, Alabama, thank 
you for the opportunity to appear before you today. You asked 
some great questions and we appreciate your time. Thank you.
    Senator Hassan. Thank you very much not only for your 
testimony today, but for everything you and the teams you work 
with the men and women in your agencies do to help secure our 
Nation. I look forward to continuing this conversation with my 
colleagues and constituents. I know you have given all of us a 
lot of ideas and identified some new problems for us to solve. 
We appreciate that.
    The hearing record will remain open for 15 days until 5 
p.m. on April 25th for submissions of statements and questions 
for the record. This hearing is adjourned.
    [Whereupon, at 4:33 p.m., the hearing was adjourned.]

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