[Senate Hearing 118-262]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
S. Hrg. 118-262
NATION ON FIRE: RESPONDING TO THE
INCREASING WILDFIRE THREAT
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HEARING
BEFORE THE
COMMITTEE ON
HOMELAND SECURITY AND GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS
UNITED STATES SENATE
ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
__________
MARCH 14, 2024
__________
Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov
Printed for the use of the
Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs
[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
__________
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
55-394 PDF WASHINGTON : 2025
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COMMITTEE ON HOMELAND SECURITY AND GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS
GARY C. PETERS, Michigan, Chairman
THOMAS R. CARPER, Delaware RAND PAUL, Kentucky
MAGGIE HASSAN, New Hampshire RON JOHNSON, Wisconsin
KYRSTEN SINEMA, Arizona JAMES LANKFORD, Oklahoma
JACKY ROSEN, Nevada MITT ROMNEY, Utah
JON OSSOFF, Georgia RICK SCOTT, Florida
RICHARD BLUMENTHAL, Connecticut JOSH HAWLEY, Missouri
LAPHONZA BUTLER, California ROGER MARSHALL, Kansas
David M. Weinberg, Staff Director
Christopher J. Mulkins, Director of Homeland Security
Naveed Jazayeri, Senior Professional Staff Member
Brittany M. Hallack, Research Assistant
William E. Henderson III, Minority Staff Director
Christina N. Salazar, Minority Chief Counsel
Megan M. Krynen, Minority Professional Staff Member
Laura W. Kilbride, Chief Clerk
Ashley A. Gonzalez, Hearing Clerk
C O N T E N T S
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Opening statements:
Page
Senator Peters............................................... 1
Senator Romney............................................... 3
Senator Lankford............................................. 4
Senator Rosen................................................ 7
Senator Carper............................................... 10
Senator Sinema............................................... 12
Senator Johnson.............................................. 20
Prepared statements:
Senator Peters............................................... 37
Senator Rosen................................................ 39
WITNESSES
THURSDAY, MARCH 14, 2024
Lori Moore-Merrell, DRPH, Administrator, U.S. Fire
Administration, Federal Emergency Management Agency, U.S.
Department of Homeland Security................................ 6
David Fogerson, Chief, Division of Emergency Management and
Office of Homeland Security, Department of Public Safety, State
of Nevada...................................................... 8
Jamie Barnes, Director, Forestry, Fire and State Lands Department
of Natural Resources, State of Utah............................ 11
Lucinda Andreani, Deputy County Manager and Flood Control
District Administrator, Coconino County, State of Arizona...... 13
Christopher P. Currie, Director, Homeland Security and Justice,
U.S. Government Accountability Office.......................... 15
Alphabetical List of Witnesses
Andreani, Lucinda:
Testimony.................................................... 13
Prepared statement........................................... 59
Barnes, Jamie:
Testimony.................................................... 11
Prepared statement........................................... 55
Currie, Christopher P.:
Testimony.................................................... 15
Prepared statement........................................... 71
Fogerson, David:
Testimony.................................................... 8
Prepared statement........................................... 45
Moore-Merrell, Lori:
Testimony.................................................... 6
Prepared statement........................................... 40
APPENDIX
Statements submitted for the Record:
Richard T. Bissen, Jr., Mayor, County of Maui................ 89
Council for Native Hawaiian Advancement...................... 97
David A. Sampson, President & CEO of the American Property
Casualty Insurance Association, and Member of the Wildland
Fire Mitigation and Management Commission.................. 100
Responses to post-hearing questions for the Record:
Ms. Moore-Merrell............................................ 108
Mr. Fogerson................................................. 114
NATION ON FIRE: RESPONDING TO THE INCREASING WILDFIRE THREAT
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THURSDAY, MARCH 14, 2024
U.S. Senate,
Committee on Homeland Security
and Governmental Affairs,
Washington, DC.
The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10 a.m., in room
SD-342, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Gary Peters, Chair
of the Committee, presiding.
Present: Senators Peters [presiding], Carper, Hassan,
Sinema, Rosen, Blumenthal, Ossoff, Butler, Johnson, Lankford,
Romney, Hawley, and Marshall.
OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR PETERS\1\
Chairman Peters. The Committee will come to order.
Wildfires are an increasing threat to our country. They have
gotten bigger, they have burned more land, and put more
communities in danger.
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\1\ The prepared statement of Senator Peters appears in the
Appendix on page 37.
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Last year alone, wildfires affected Americans from Hawaii
to the Great Smoky Mountains, and this year, they are likely to
get worse. As we sit here today, communities in Texas just
recently finished fighting the largest wildfire in the history
of that State. It burned almost 1.4 million acres of land,
taking lives, damaging houses, devastating agriculture,
displacing families, and leaving property across the northern
edge of the State in ruin.
Last August, the fire in Maui was absolutely catastrophic
and even more deadly. It took the lives of over 100 people, and
shattered countless communities. It was the deadliest wildfire
in our country in over a century. The Council of Native
Hawaiian Advancement (CNHA)\2\ and the Mayor of Maui County\3\
have submitted written testimony regarding the ongoing recovery
efforts in Maui, and I move to offer them into the hearing
record without objection.
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\2\ Testimony submitted by the Council of Native Hawaiian
Advancement appears in the Appendix on page 97.
\3\ Testimony submitted by the Mayor of Maui County appears in the
Appendix on page 89.
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These are just a few of the examples of a new crisis, one
that is putting even more Americans at risk. The effects of
these fires are not only physical danger and property damage,
they also bring a host of health risks to our communities even
in locations hundreds of miles from the fire.
Last year, large swaths of the eastern United States were
impacted by wildfire smoke from Canada, causing unhealthy air
quality from Detroit, to Washington, DC, to Boston. Inhaling
such smoke causes lung disease, heart problems, as well as
cancer. As wildfires grow more common in urban communities,
they can burn dangerous synthetic materials. Even after the
fire is over, the threat remains.
After effects, like floods, mudslides, and barren land can
threaten public safety for years. But it does not stop there.
Wildfires are also unbelievably expensive. They amount to
billions of dollars in response and recovery costs, as well as
economic losses every single year.
Our State and local governments have to spend already
limited resources onto these disasters, often much more than
they can afford. Businesses lose money, properties lose value,
infrastructure gets damaged, and industries are changed for
good.
This is not just a land management issue anymore. It is
also an emerging crisis of public health, emergency management,
and economic security. That's partly due to development. We are
building more in the ``wild land urban interface'', a term for
the transitional zone between unoccupied land and settled
property, and that brings us closer to wildfires that in the
past could have been contained within uninhabited land.
This problem is also exacerbated by climate change. We have
higher temperatures, more droughts, and a host of other
ecological factors that make wildfires more dangerous. They are
one of the gravest consequences of global climate change. In
short, this is a serious problem. Climate change is making it
worse, and we have to improve our response, our recovery, and
mitigation efforts.
We have a few key tools for that work. The Federal
Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) is the government agency
tasked with disaster relief and wildfires affecting communities
falls under their purview. FEMA handles declarations and gives
out key resources to communities affected by wildfires, but the
increasing danger posed by wildfires has revealed gaps in this
agency's infrastructure.
For instance, many of its programs were designed for other
hazards like floods and hurricanes, and do not adequately meet
the needs of wildfires. I look forward to hearing from our
panel of witnesses on what FEMA needs to do in order to
properly mitigate this threat. Our witnesses will also provide
valuable insight on the Wildland Fire Mitigation and Management
Commission.
The Commission, which I want to thank Senator Romney for
championing, was marked up in this Committee and signed into
law as part of the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law (BIL). It
offered a sweeping review of our government's response to
wildfires and what we need to improve. It was co-chaired by
FEMA, the Department of Agriculture (USDA), and the Department
of Interior (DOI), and released nearly 150 recommendations this
past September.
The report outline ways we can expand our workforce to
fight fires, modernize the tools we use, invest in resilient
infrastructure, and adopt a proactive approach so that our
communities can be better prepared to face this problem in the
future.
Our Committee has taken some key steps related to the
report's recommendation. Last year, the Senate passed my
bipartisan Disaster Assistance Simplification Act, which makes
it easier for people to get help they need after wildfires, as
well as other serious natural disasters.
This Congress, the Senate, passed the Fire Grants and
Safety Act, which will help expand our workforce and support
firefighters all across America. This Committee has also passed
the Wildland Firefighter Paycheck Protection Act, led by
Senator Sinema to establish a permanent updated pay scale for
Federal firefighters. We will continue working to advance this
bipartisan legislation through Congress to prevent a pay cliff
for wildland firefighters at the end of this fiscal year (FY).
But there is still so much more we need to do. Wildfires
have become a crisis for our country, and one that calls for
bold and comprehensive solutions. This threat is not just going
to go away, and this Committee must play a central role in our
Federal Government's response. Today's discussion with our
expert witnesses represents a meaningful step toward that goal.
I would now like to invite Senator Romney to share some
opening remarks.
OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR ROMNEY
Senator Romney. Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you for
holding this hearing.
This is a national priority. It is tragic that we continue
to have wildfires of the nature we have. Some have become
conflagrations. There has been massive loss of life, and this
is a problem from Hawaii, to Canada, to the Southern Border
across the country. More and more States are being affected by
wildfires. It is not just a few States in the American West, as
we sometimes think is the case. It is a national concern.
I particularly want to thank Utah's Director of Forestry,
Jamie Barnes, for being here and being willing to share her
expertise with this Committee. We have some 800 to 1,000
wildfires per year just in Utah. When you think about the
impact of these fires, I go back to 2018. We had one called the
Dollar Ridge Fire. What was most unusual about that is that it
dramatically impacted the watershed, going into rivers, and
streams, and lakes, killed wildlife, fish, threatened the
drinking supply of people in Panguitch, Utah.
The challenge is not just that we are putting CO2 and smoke
in the air, and threatening structures and life, but we are
also affecting our drinking water and the life of wildlife.
In 2021, the Parley Canyon fire forced the evacuation of
8,000 residents along the Wasatch Front for an extended period
of time. I went and met with people there, and they were angry
asking why couldn't we do a better job preventing these things
from happening, and I did not have a lot of answers. We were
actually even considering closing down Interstate 80 as a
result of that fire.
Back in 2021, Senator Mark Kelly of Arizona and I
introduced the Wildland Fire Mitigation and Management
Commission Act. It put together, as you know, some 50
individuals, Federal, State, local, private sector, public
sector, FEMA. This group came together. They have put together
a report as of September of last year with some 148 different
recommendations.
Senator Kelly and I are working on legislation to take
these recommendations and turn them into law. That is one of
the reasons we wanted to have this hearing today, to get your
perspectives on what things we might want to turn into law.
I appreciate very much the work that you are doing. It is a
national priority. I recognize that we cannot keep on doing the
way we have in the past. We are going to have to have some
changes. It is going to require additional funding, we may need
additional fixed wing aircraft, different monitoring systems,
different remediation, different forestry management, different
prescribed burns processes. There are a lot of things that we
are going to have to do differently than we have in the past.
I look forward to the testimony today, particularly from
Director Barnes, and the rest of you, and appreciate the
willingness of Members of our Committee to come together to
focus on this important issue.
Chairman Peters. Thank you, Senator Romney. I would like
now to invite Senator Lankford to share some opening remarks.
OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR LANKFORD
Senator Lankford: Mr. Chair, thank you. Sometimes when
people think about wildfires, they do not think about Oklahoma.
They think about some of the areas of tall timber. I do want to
remind folks, we do have tall timber in Oklahoma as well, on
the eastern side of our State, and we have great areas of
prairie grass on the west.
February the 26th, just a few weeks ago wildfires broke out
in the State of Oklahoma. According to our forestry services,
we had 152,000 acres that were burned just on February 26th. In
the days that are following that, we had a high fire danger day
even yesterday.
As that is continuing to be able to come, just in that fire
on February 26th, and the time after that, we had 19 homes
destroyed. We had four injuries that were there, a lot of
livestock, and a lot of fence line through that area. Our
neighbors in Texas, where one of the fires actually started and
moved into Oklahoma, lost over 1,000,000 acres just at the end
of February and early in March.
This is wildfire season in Oklahoma. It is when we see a
lot of the fires actually take off quickly with the dry
vegetation and high winds coming through. That is why Senator
Barrasso and Senator Manchin are holding hearings on wildfires
as well this week as we continue to be able to talk through the
other issues that we can to try to resolve as many things as we
can.
We do have to address areas of mitigation. That is grazing,
that is prescribed burns, that is timber harvesting, that is
removal of hazardous fuels, and the hazardous fuels for us in
Oklahoma is actually the red cedar which actually just explodes
when fire gets near them as well. It is a big issue for us. It
is an invasive tree. It takes off quickly, and if they are not
actually mitigated when a wildfire breaks out, it becomes a
major issue for us to be able to spread the fire and to be able
to accelerate it.
You may not know this, but Oklahoma occasionally has severe
weather. I know that may be a shock to everybody. Occasionally,
when we have severe weather, that lightning will also break out
a fire, and that has become a long-term issue for us as well. A
lot of our critical infrastructure continues to be able to deal
with how they can manage those issues.
We also have fires that break out, like it happens, at
times with our electrical power grid. That is an issue that we
still need to be able to resolve, and then will be, hopefully,
a part of our conversation today; on grid wildfires as well as
occasionally a lightning strike that hits an oil battery or
whatever it may be, or just to be able to catch some of the
grass on fire, and it takes off from there.
Among our witnesses today, they are coming from States with
a lot of Federal land. Federal bureaucracy, I would say, should
not prevent us from quickly responding to wildfires. We do have
some additional contracting issues as far as the date of
contract. For instance, in Oklahoma, our date of contracting
for wildfire assistance begins on March the first. Did I
mention that our wildfires came in on the end of February this
year?
Just getting Federal assistance to be able to come in
because for our wildfires happened to come in before the
contracting dates, that created additional problems for us. We
do have some red tape we have to be able to work through. When
disaster strikes, we should be able to respond to those.
One of the issues that Senator Daines, Representative Issa,
and I are working on to remove some of the red tape is on the
hiring issues. We have a bill called Direct Hire to Fight Fires
Act that we are working to be able to make sure that we can
actually get to some of those firefighters faster, to the task
on it, to be able to resolve some of the hiring issues so we
are not having to have those delays just in the hiring to be
able to get folks on the ground.
So, appreciate the hearing. This is a big issue for us
nationally. It is a tremendous cost to the Federal taxpayer,
but it is a bigger cost to those that are actually impacted by
the fire on the ground.
Chairman Peters. Thank you, Senator Lankford. It is the
practice of the Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs
Committee (HSGAC) to swear in witness. If each of you would
please stand and raise your right hands. Do you swear that the
testimony that you will give before this Committee will be the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you,
God?
Ms. Moore-Merrell. I do.
Mr. Fogerson. I do.
Ms. Barnes. I do.
Ms. Andreani. I do.
Mr. Currie. I do.
Chairman Peters. You may be seated.
Our first witness is Lori Moore-Merrell. She is the U.S.
Fire Administrator (USFA) for FEMA. She oversees efforts to
support and strengthen fire and emergency medical services to
prepare for, prevent, mitigate, and respond to all hazards.
Prior to that role Dr. Moore-Merrell has served at the helm
of the International Public Safety Data Institute and worked as
a senior executive in the International Association of
Firefighters (IAFF).
Since beginning her career as a paramedic for the city of
Memphis Fire Department 37 years ago, she has become a renowned
expert on public safety and fire service.
Dr. Merrell, you are now recognized for your opening
remarks.
TESTIMONY OF LORI MOORE-MERRELL,\1\ ADMINISTRATOR, U.S. FIRE
ADMINISTRATION, FEDERAL EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT AGENCY, U.S.
DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY
Dr. Moore-Merrell. Thank you, Senator Peters, and recommend
Paul, Senator Romney, and the Members of the Committee.
Certainly, thank you for your well-informed opening statements.
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\1\ The prepared statement of Ms. Moore-Merrell appears in the
Appendix on page 40.
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I am Lori Moore-Merrell, the U.S. Fire Administrator within
the Federal Emergency Management Agency. Thank you for the
opportunity to testify today, and to discuss the continuous and
evolving wildfire threat.
Before we can effectively examine the impact on wildfire on
the Nation, we must first clarify terminology however.
Historically, there has been a propensity for Federal
decisionmaking to refer to wildland fire in laws intended to
reduce the impact on communities.
To clarify, wildland is a location made up of vegetation,
while wildland urban interface (WUI) and wildland intermixed
communities are referred to as the interface. These are areas
where human development meets inner or intermingles with
underdeveloped wildland vegetative fuels that are both fire
dependent and fire prone.
Ultimately, this confusion in terminology has led to
limited resources to address the threat of wildfire before it
occurs in the built environment.
Throughout much of the United States and globally,
wildfires are growing in intensity, size, and destructiveness,
as you have noted. The expansion of our communities into new
locations also contributes to the risk we face. It is
imperative that the States and local officials adopt,
implement, and enforce national wildland urban interface
building codes.
In response to these challenges, the Department of Homeland
Security (DHS), FEMA, and the U.S. Fire Administration, the
U.S. Department of Agriculture, Forest Service, the Department
of Interior, were directed by Congress, as you know, through
the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law to lead the Wildland Fire
Mitigation and Management Commission.
The Wildland Fire Mitigation and Management Commission was
charged with recommending improvements on how Federal agencies
manage wildfire across the landscapes. The Commission's final
report of 148 recommendations covering several themes,
including putting significantly more focus on resources toward
proactive pre-fire and post-fire planning to break the current
cycle of increasingly severe wildfire risk, damages, and
losses.
Another theme of the report was modernizing tools to inform
in decisionmaking, including several measures that would better
coordinate, integrate, and strategically align fire-related
science data and technology. A major commission recommendation
for the United States Fire Administration is that we provide
expanded community-based wildfire training, and engagement of
the nation's non-Federal fire service to promote fire-adapted
communities, to build community resilience, and improve
coordination with wildfire management in the interface.
These recommendations and actions would have been
particularly valuable to address the Lahaina Maui fire before
the fire occurred. I accompanied the FEMA Administrator to
Laina Maui 48 hours after the fire. My overall focus on the
ground was to get a firsthand look at the indications of how
the fire moved, likely wind impact, the fuel load that enabled
rapid and extensive fire spread, indications of human behavior
during evacuation, and overall firefighter wellbeing.
USFA's focus is now on the post-fire mitigation
opportunities through the FEMA mitigation assessment team, and
increasing resilience during the build back in Lahaina. To
assist with building resilience, USFA in coordination with the
Department of Homeland Security Science and Technology (S&T) is
deploying several wildfire sensors on Maui, along with the
other fire-prone islands in the State.
Sensory technology as a critical part of the effective
wildfire response, providing real time, accurate information on
these fires as early as possible post ignition so that
resources can be quickly deployed to engage in suppression.
However, we need continual investments and updates on existing
wildfire models, as well as additional training for
firefighters to respond to these events.
The increasing incidents of wildfire that affect
communities means that more municipal fire departments are
responsible for firefighting in the wildland and in the
interface. The reality is that local firefighters must add
interface and suburban conflagration, wildfire strategies and
tactics to their operational skillset.
Last, fire departments cannot safely and effectively
respond to the wildland or the interface fires without proper
protective equipment. The USFA, along with the Federal, State,
and local partners, are actively participating in preparedness,
including community risk reduction, where we are engaging with
individuals and their communities through fire stop tours
across the Nation.
It is a goal to prepare all local firefighters, structural
firefighters, and communities for increase in wildfires in the
interface and the rural and suburban communities. We anticipate
challenges ahead. FEMA and the USFA looks forward to working
with the members of this community and this committee to build
more resilient nation.
I want to thank you again for the opportunity to testify,
and I look forward to your questions.
Chairman Peters. Thank you.
I would like to now recognize Senator Rosen to introduce
our second witness.
OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR ROSEN\1\
Senator Rosen: Thank you, Chair Peters, and it is my
distinct honor and pleasure to introduce Nevada's own David
Fogerson, the Chief of the Nevada Division of Emergency
Management and Office of Homeland Security. Welcome, Chief.
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\1\ The prepared statement of Senator Rosen appears in the Appendix
on page 39.
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Chief Fogerson has over 30 years of experience in public
safety, serving in a number of different roles, including as a
wildland firefighter himself and as deputy fire chief and
emergency manager for Nevada.
In our State of Nevada, the unique landscape, the changing
climate, the amount of land owned by the Federal Government,
over 80 percent, by the way, make wildfire mitigation and
recovery all the more challenging. That is why we need strong
leaders like Chief Fogerson, who create collaborative
partnerships and encourage innovation in our approach to
addressing wildfires.
We are so lucky to have someone with as much experience and
insight as Chief Fogerson leading Nevada's response to
devastating wildfires, and working with leaders across the
country to address the increasing challenges that wildfires are
now presenting. Nevada needs to be. We must be at the table in
these important conversations.
It is why I am pleased that Chief Fogerson represented our
State on the Wildland Fire Mitigation Management Commission
which was charged with making these important recommendations
to Congress on wildfire strategies and response, and I think
you will not find a State in the Nation anymore that is immune
from wildfires.
I am so glad to have you here today testifying before this
Committee. We thank you for their service to our State, and I
think the Chair will recognize you for your opening remarks.
Chairman Peters. Mr. Fogerson, you are now recognized for
your opening comments.
TESTIMONY OF DAVID W. FOGERSON,\1\ CHIEF, NEVADA DIVISION OF
EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT AND OFFICE OF HOMELAND SECURITY DEPARTMENT
OF PUBLIC SAFETY OF NEVADA
Mr. Fogerson. Chair Peters, Ranking Member Paul, Nevada
Senator, Rosen, and distinguished Members of this Committee, it
is my esteemed pleasure to speak with you about our nation to
wildfire threat.
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\1\ The prepared statement of Mr. Fogerson appears in the Appendix
on page 45.
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This is my 30th Nevada wildfire season. I was a deputy fire
chief responsible for negotiating a cooperative fire protection
agreement with both the Forest Service and the Bureau of Land
Management (BLM) based upon the Reciprocal Fire Protection Act
of 1954. As with all western States' emergency managers,
wildfire continues to be my life's work.
I am before you today as a member of the Wildfire
Commission. I believe the Commission was empowered and
envisioned to rethink the path on wildfire. Fifty diverse
commissioners agreed upon 148 recommendations with 100 percent
consensus. That should add weight to our story.
We want to abide down our risks. This occurs when we treat
wildfire as we do a hurricane, with the whole community
approach. This occurs when we support partnerships to ensure
everyone has a seat at the table. This occurs when we support
workforce development, and realize we no longer have a fire
season, but rather a fire year.
H.R. 7070 speaks to treating wildfire as we do hurricanes,
and I urge its support. We do not care who owns the hurricane,
we react as a collective community to support survivor outcomes
using an enterprise-wide approach. During projected landfall,
Federal agencies are collaborative to move resources, support
State and local responses. Funds are provided to preposition
resources. Emergency operation centers are open with a mindset
to protect the whole community. Partners come together.
Our nation's response to wildfire is quite different. A Red
Flag Warning did not trigger local, State, Federal, and tribal
nation coordination to prepare. When we hear the Santa Ana is
in Southern California or the Washoe Zephyr is in Northern
Nevada, or there's no openings in emergency operation centers,
no community-wide approach, and no collective movement of
resources as wildfire is still viewed as a responsibility of
whichever agency manages the land segregated by property lines
and jurisdictions.
We need an outcome-based view, one of consequence
management as we do with hurricanes. The evacuation
coordination effort currently being led by the Fire
Administration is of paramount importance. In fact, Nevada,
California is holding a bi-State workshop on this issue in two
weeks.
Our responsibility includes accounting for the cascading
hazards wildfire brings. We know floods follow fire. Tying
flood to the fire is essential for resource-poor communities to
protect the residents and visitors. Collaboration is key given
the role that local governments play in wildfire response. In
Nevada, local governments, structural firefighters are our
primary wildfire responders. Federal grants such as Fire
Management Assistance Grant (FMAG), Emergency Management
Performance Grant (EMPG), Assistance to Firefighters Grants
(AFG), and Staffing For Adequate Fire and Emergency Response
(SAFER), help local governments fight the fire and not their
checkbook.
Administrator Chriswell is working to increase FEMA's
nimbleness. No one wants fraud, waste, and abuse. We want
nimbleness to create the best outcomes in the shortest amount
of time. There is a fine balancing act between those two needs
a balance point we must continually seek.
FEMA and the U.S. Fire Administration needs our support to
ensure they are positioned to support the whole community. They
must be sufficiently resourced and funded for wildfire
planning, preparation, response, recovery, and mitigation. Our
Federal land management agency partners spend their entire
careers dedicated to the wildfire. These professionals need
adequate salary, benefit, and respect, and the workforce must
be grown to a year-round one, one which can provide for
mitigation activities outside of fighting fire.
The idea of a fire season lasting from May to October is no
longer a reality in Nevada. Nevada sees a year-round fire
season with our largest loss of civilian life and property
during winter wildfires when our Federal partners are not
staffed to support response. I've managed many winter wildfires
asking for additional engines, hand crews, and air support,
only be reminded it is out of season, and local government is
depth of the resources available.
Local governments are critical component of wildfire
response, year-round and around the clock. The same firefighter
that responds to your difficulty breathing call to your
structure fire, to your motor vehicle collision with
extrication needs, is your wildfire responder year-round. We
must allow for more rapid reimbursement to make the local
government whole for their efforts. This will allow them to
grow their capabilities and remain engaged. Reciprocal Fire Act
of 1954 remains an impediment to the local government partners.
I thank you for this opportunity to testify today. It is an
honor and highlight of my career. My passion is to ensure that
we are learning from experience and improving our systems; for
to those who much is given, much is expected. Thank you.
Chairman Peters. Thank you, Mr. Fogerson. Before we
introduce our next witness, I recognize Senator Carper for one
minute for a brief remark.
OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR CARPER
Senator Carper: Thanks, Mr. Chair. Welcome. I represent the
State of Delaware. We do not have a lot of wildfires. We have a
lot of firefighters, and we revere them in the good work that
they that they do. We have challenges that emanate from the
ocean. We have sea level rise and wiping out parts of our
beaches and our farmland along the coast. It is not just
Delaware, it is all up and down the East Coast, the West Coast
as well.
I would like to say in my State, it is not enough just to
address this the symptoms of sea level rise and the devastation
that comes around. We have to address root causes. We all know
what the root cause is; it is climate change. There is too much
carbon in the air.
The good news is we are doing a lot as a country, I think,
leading the world in addressing that, and we need to do more of
that. We will not only make sure we have great beaches in
places like Delaware, but also make sure that the we will have
fewer wildfires to fight across the country.
Thank you all for being here, and welcome. Thank you.
Thanks, Mr. Chair.
Chairman Peters. Thank you, Senator Carper. I need to step
away to an Armed Services Committee to ask some questions. I
will be passing the gavel over to Senator Romney. Senator
Romney will be chairing this hearing while I step away. Senator
Romney.
Senator Romney. Yes, I will be a good boy. I will not do
anything to embarrass you, Mr. Chair, I promise. Although it is
mostly Republicans here, so we might.
Chairman Peters. I have a tremendous amount of trust in
you, my friend.
Senator Romney [presiding.] All right. Thank you. We are
going to hear from Director Barnes. Jamie Barnes is currently
serving as the Utah State Forester and Director of Utah's
Division of Forestry, Fire and State Lands. Prior to this, she
was responsible for the Sovereign Lands Program in our State.
She, by the way, got her master's degree at University of
Idaho. She obviously went astray from our Northern Border, but
her undergraduate is from Weber State University. Director
Barnes, we are happy to have you here and we turn to you for
your testimony.
TESTIMONY OF JAMIE BARNES,\1\ DIRECTOR, FORESTRY, FIRE AND
STATE LANDS DEPARTMENT OF NATURAL RESOURCES STATE OF UTAH
Ms. Barnes. Thank you, Senator Romney. Good morning, and
thank you Chair Peters, and Members of the Committee. I am
pleased to be here with you today to take the opportunity to
appear before you and to discuss wildfire.
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\1\ The prepared statement of Ms. Barnes appears in the Appendix on
page 55.
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We are no stranger to the development occurring in our
wildland urban interface communities. With urban growth comes
an increased risk of devastating wildfire. Many of these areas
contain an overgrowth of fuels. We are seeing fires burn hotter
and more severely than ever. Many States across the Western
U.S. now refer to fire season as fire year. Increased fire
occurrence and severity also lead to more days of wildfire
smoke in our communities.
The increased severity and intensity of fires outside the
typical fire season is demonstrated by the recent destructive
wildfires experienced in places like Colorado, Maui, and most
recently, Texas. The unexpected is no longer unexpected. It is
the new normal.
In addition to States being faced with the increasing
suppression costs or of altered fire regimens, private
landowners are now being pressured to reduce the amount of
fuels on their landscape. While this may reduce the individual
risk of wildfires, communities have little control of wildfires
beyond their property boundary.
We do have tools in the toolbox that we can use to help
mitigate hazardous fuels and actively manage our lands as
prescribed fire is one of them. However, it becomes complex,
and when dealing with air quality standards, permitting
challenges, and with mechanical treatments and cross boundary
landscapes.
The majority of the focus around air quality is out of
proportion to the frequency and porosity of wildfires.
Wildfires can negate any improvement of air quality in a single
incident. Utah spends the majority of its summer months
inundated with smoke from wildfires of other States. With this
in mind, we must remember the true cost of wildfire.
Each year, wildfire suppression dollars are reported and
used widely to bring into context the severity of wildfire
season. In reality, suppression is only a fraction of the cost.
When assessing the full cost of wildfire, we must consider the
long-term and complex cost from loss of life, safety,
infrastructure, and ecosystem services.
Utah's collaborative relationships lead to our successes.
We believe in strong interagency collaboration. Shared
stewardship and Fire Sense are examples of how the Utah way
achieves goals. The shared stewardship approach brings partners
together and stakeholders together to focus on doing the right
work in the right place at the right scale.
Since 2019, the shared stewardship program in Utah has
invested $30 million in active forest management treating over
80,000 acres. This initiative has improved Utah's watersheds
through a collaborative approach. Fire Sense, a State-sponsored
campaign with inter-agency collaboration to educate Utah
citizens and visitors is a wildfire prevention campaign.
Utahans have successfully reduced human caused wildfires by
over 60 percent in the last three years. That is absolutely
amazing. Wildfire Mitigation and Management Commission Act
released a report with key findings that are important to Utah
with regard to mitigating managing and recovering from
wildfires.
In the last decade, Utah has seen large wildfires and
escape-prescribed burn projects impact our watersheds. The
report identified ways to make planning more effective and
efficient. This is one approach that Utah has been very
proactive in with shared stewardship, but with limited funding.
There are still limitations to achieving large landscape
scale projects due to Nevada Emergency Preparedness Association
(NEPA's) litigation challenges, the need for permitting reform,
and the lack of mechanisms for forest management. Also, limited
funding is available for post-wildfire restoration at the State
level. Providing additional funding would help the recovery
from a significant wildfire event.
Forestry, Fire and State Lands evaluates the State of Utah
wildfire risk by considering resources and values at risk in an
area to determine fire risk. These same metrics should be used
to prioritize success of mitigation work and not just the
number of acres treated. Current Federal performance metrics
are used solely on metrics around acres treated.
Last, prioritizing investment in building a workforce is
important throughout the Nation. Firefighter pay has been at
the center of discussions for years now. Utah recently passed
legislation addressing the pay of State wildland firefighters.
Having an equally paid inter-agency workforce should be a
priority.
We need to learn to live with fire being the new normal. We
need to fight fire with fire, putting more fire on the
landscape through prescribed burning with lower intensity
burning and less impact to air quality. Increasing funding and
capacity, along with finding ways to strengthen relationships
is the key to successful forest management and reducing the
number of wildfires throughout the Nation. Thank you for your
time.
Senator Romney. Thank you, Director Barnes.
The chair recognizes Senator Sinema to introduce the fourth
witness.
OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR SINEMA
Senator Sinema. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I am pleased to be
able to introduce my friend and member of the Wildland Fire
Mitigation and Management Commission, Lucinda Andreani.
Lucinda serves as the Deputy County Manager and Flood
Control District Administrator for Coconino County in Arizona,
where we have worked together on many critical projects for the
people of Northern Arizona, from resiliency planning to
delivering key post-fire and post-flood resources to seeing
firsthand the people in neighborhoods in Flagstaff devastated
by post-fire flooding.
Lucinda has been a champion for rethinking the ways we plan
for and respond to wildfires in our country, and her
appointment to this important commission is a testament to her
dedication to Northern Arizona. I cannot thank Lucinda enough
for exemplary work co-chairing the Post-wildfire Working Group
with another witness we have at today's hearing, Mr. Fogerson.
I look forward to Lucinda's testimony and continuing our
work to deliver results for all Arizonans who are affected by
the growing threat of wildfires. Thank you. Thanks, Lucinda.
TESTIMONY OF LUCINDA ANDREANI,\1\ DEPUTY COUNTY MANAGER AND
FLOOD CONTROL DISTRICT ADMINISTRATOR, COCONINO COUNTY, STATE OF
ARIZONA
Ms. Andreani. Senator Romney, Senator Sinema, and
distinguished Members of the Committee. I am honored to
testify.
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\1\ The prepared statement of Ms. Andreani appears in the Appendix
on page 59.
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From the shores of Hawaii to the Panhandle of Texas,
wildfire ravages tens of millions of acres and thousands of
communities. Even once the wildfires are extinguished,
secondary impacts such as loss of housing and post-wildfire
flooding threaten the health and safety of affected communities
for years.
I am Lucinda Andreani, and I serve as Coconino County
Arizona's Deputy County Manager and Flood Control District
Administrator. I am responsible for mitigating the impacts of
wildfires and post-wildfire flooding, and my duties include
leading the district's forest restoration initiative.
I can tell you firsthand, the scale of these crises rapidly
overwhelms the capacity of local governments. While there are
opportunities for Federal support, must much be done to improve
the accessibility, immediacy, and effectiveness of the Federal
response to the wildfire crisis.
I also was privileged to represent counties across the
country as I served on the congressionally established Wildland
Fire Mitigation and Management Commission. It is counties that
generally bear the brunt of wildfire disasters. I want to thank
Senator Sinema for her continuing leadership with and
significant contributions to improving wildfire prevention
response and recovery. Her support of the county's efforts have
been steadfast and are deeply appreciated by the county and our
residents, and me personally as well.
Since 2010, Coconino County has endured nine major
wildfires, issued over 25,000 evacuation orders, lost over 130
buildings, including 63 homes, and wildfires have released 4.1
million metric tons of carbon. I would like to focus on some
key issues relative to how FEMA can improve wildfire recovery
processes.
Commission recommendation 64 advocates for amending the
Stafford Act to reflect the cascading repetitive nature of
post-wildfire flooding. Although cumulative impacts usually
exceed the minimum for a declaration, the disaster events are
separated by 72-hour windows. As a result, Coconino County has
lost access to millions of dollars in FEMA reimbursements and
has virtually no access to the Public Assistance Program.
Commission recommendation 79 calls for protecting taxpayer
investments by ensuring that FEMA funds can be applied to
infrastructure improvements, not just in-kind replacements. In
Coconino County, we have seen wildfire impacted watersheds
discharge up to 26 times more flood water than they did in pre-
wildfire conditions. Congressional action is needed to allow
FEMA to reimburse for upfront short-term flood mitigation and
infrastructure preparation costs for post-wildfire flooding.
While some areas may qualify for Natural Resources Conservation
Service (NRCS') exigency program, FEMA should reimburse local
governments and tribes that do not qualify for NRCS exigency,
and to prepare infrastructure for the dramatically increased
flood flows. Furthermore, exigency funding through FEMA may
provide a tangential benefit to the National Flood Insurance
Program (NFIP).
Now, I want to quickly turn to increasing the resiliency to
wildfires. While the BIL and IRA funding has significantly
improved Federal investments in forest restoration, additional
funding will be needed across the West to reduce the threat of
catastrophic wildfires as called out in Commission
Recommendation 126. Improving the resiliency of the built
environment is also important as is identified in Commission
Recommendation 6.
I am glad to see FEMA's Building Resilient Infrastructures
and Communities (BRIC) and Hazard Mitigation Grant Program
(HMGP) programs are now focusing on fuels reduction within
communities. However, streamlining FEMA's processes is greatly
needed. Our county received a fuels reduction grant, but
because of these slow processes, it will take over five years
to implement. The wildfire crisis cannot be dealt with as
business as usual.
In Coconino County, we have become adept at navigating the
systems and forming the partnerships to secure aid to address
post-wildfire impacts, but this is not the case for most areas
such as our neighboring State of New Mexico. The Commission's
Recommendation 60 calls for major improvements in Federal
agency coordination.
Thank you again for the opportunity to provide testimony. A
robust unified response from all levels of government is
needed. Thank you.
Senator Romney. Thank you. I appreciate that testimony. I
am just going to note that you may wonder why it is that people
are coming in and out from this front row here. That is because
there are other hearings going on that we have responsibility
to attend, and in some cases, to chair.
I would also note that the people who are going to be doing
drafting on legislation and implementing many of the
recommendations from the commission, they are the ones sitting
behind us. The workers are the ones sitting at these back rows
here, and they are not leaving. They are here to make sure that
we actually turn into law some of the recommendations that are
being made by the commission.
Our final witness is Christopher P. Currie. He serves as
Director of Homeland Security and Justice at the Government
Accountability Office (GAO). Mr. Currie leads the GAO's work in
emergency management and disaster response and evaluates the
efficiency of certain programs within DHS, including FEMA. He
has served in the GAO since 2002. We have seen him a number of
times before, as you can imagine.
Mr. Currie, you are now recognized for your opening
statement.
TESTIMONY OF CHRISTOPHER P. CURRIE,\1\ DIRECTOR, HOMELAND
SECURITY AND JUSTICE, U.S. GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABILITY OFFICE
Mr. Currie. Thank you very much, Senator Romney, and other
Members of the Committee. It is an honor to be here today to
talk about GAO's work on wildfire preparedness, response, and
recovery.
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\1\ The prepared statement of Mr. Currie appears in the Appendix on
page 71.
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I am not going to repeat all the challenges about
wildfires. I think everyone's covered that pretty well, and the
150 or so Wildfire Commission recommendations show how big of a
problem this is. But what I want to do is get into some nuts
and bolts, and really lay out three key points based on the
years of work we have done on this area and talking to almost
every State in the country as well, and listening to the
challenges they face.
The first point is that the current Federal system has not
really caught up to the modern threat of wildfires. It is very
similar to, I think, what we were facing in 2005 with Hurricane
Katrina when we were not ready for those types of disasters.
The current system focuses on suppression and mitigation in
rural and Federal lands, and what we have seen is that
wildfires are now affecting very populated areas. Over the last
10 years FEMA is becoming a lot more involved because more
people and infrastructure are being affected.
Traditionally, land management agencies like the Forest
Service and Interior have had separate missions from FEMA. Now
that this is changing, there needs to be better coordination
between the two. As others have mentioned on the panel, there
needs to be a much more holistic approach from start to finish
about this.
Some examples I love to throw out are, States have told us,
for example, that if a wildfire starts on Federal land, you can
not actually access certain FEMA grants and programs until that
wildfire crosses into State or city land. That was just an
archaic process that is tied up in how these programs have been
applied for other types of disasters and in statute.
Wildfire smokes is another example. As you can imagine, the
Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) and the Forest Service
have very different priorities as it pertains to wildfire
smoke. Forest Service wants to use prescribed burns to mitigate
against fires. EPA wants to stop smoke to increase air quality.
These are just the types of things that we have to work out as
we change the dynamic with wildfires.
The second point is, in our work, Federal assistance has
struggled to really help individuals and communities with
wildfires. As was mentioned, a lot of these programs were
developed for hurricanes, floods, and other tornadoes, and
other types of disasters, which it is already a huge challenge
in those areas. But it is even more difficult because wildfires
are very unique.
The best example I like to provide is housing after a
disaster with survivors. You can not put a FEMA trailer on a
burned-out house. The soil is toxic. The debris has to be
actually removed, and the fire completely destroys the house or
the community.
Another unique aspect to this is that, often, the entire
structure or community is gone. It takes much longer to
rebuild. You have to completely redesign and, buildup to
current code way more difficult than just rebuilding a house in
a neighborhood after it floods or after it is hit by a
hurricane.
The other challenge is just shortages of disaster housing
for survivors afterwards. We have seen this in Maui, and in
California. These things tend to hit in places that are
extremely expensive for housing. There is not a lot of hotels
and other things to put disaster survivors in.
Recently when I was in Maui, local official reminded me
that average family home there is about $1.5 million. They do
not have a bunch of small houses sitting around for temporary
housing for survivors. FEMA and its Federal partners and State
and local partners are going to have to work together to figure
out before fires happen what we are going to do with survivors
when they are taking years to rebuild their homes.
The last point I would like to talk about is just Federal
disaster assistance in general. What we hear consistently
everywhere we go around the country is these programs are way
too complicated. Recovery programs, they take a long time. They
are very frustrating to navigate, and when you are trying to
use multiple Federal programs together for recovery, it becomes
almost close to impossible in some people's view.
This is something that we are going to have to change. We
have made recommendations on how we can do this. We actually
suggested it was such a big problem that there needed to be a
specific commission set up to handle just disaster recovery
reform in general. Many things need to take place to change the
way we look at wildfire preparedness, response, and recovery.
Thank you for the chance to be here and I look forward to
the questions.
Senator Romney. Thank you, Director Currie, and appreciate
the work that you do and that all of our panel members do to
help protect our citizens and our land.
I am going to direct my first question to Director Barnes,
but you others are free to comment on it as well. Director
Barnes, you noted the importance of forestry management, but
said that there are regulatory barriers that make it difficult
for us to effectively manage our forest. What are the barriers
that the commission identified, or just based on your own
experience, what things should we focus on to be able to make
it more likely that we will be able to effectively manage the
forest prior to a wildfire?
Ms. Barnes. Yes. Thanks, Senator Romney. I think some of
those barriers are definitely the NEPA process that we are
going through. Permitting reform is something that we
definitely need to be focusing on. Also, efficiencies across
agencies is something that we should be focusing on and how we
can do better planning efforts.
Honestly, in Utah, we do things very well with our
interagency partners. I often tell people if everybody could do
it the Utah Way, the world would be a lot better. We have
worked on that very hard through shared stewardship, but I
think breaking down those barriers through NEPA, the litigation
issues that we see that are very costly.
Also the alignment, getting everything aligned to have a
project happen, that's a tricky thing for things to happen. Air
quality, if you are doing prescribed fire, permitting,
everything lining up altogether to make things work, it becomes
complicated and complex at times.
Senator Romney. I am going to add that to this question.
Just personal observation, having driven through a number of
the forests in our State, I was astounded to see that in some
cases, perhaps as much as two-thirds of the wood of the trees
are dead. If they are harvested, I am told within three years
or so, they can be used for chipboard and so forth. But the
process of getting a permit to harvest this dead wood takes so
long that it is no longer useful and therefore has no economic
value, therefore we can not get loggers to come in and take out
the dead wood.
Does the commission make any recommendations that would
allow us to actually use some of the deadwood, and to get
private sector participants to come in and remove some of the
fuel that adds to the danger of these wildfires?
Ms. Barnes. Absolutely, and that is an important piece of
the puzzle. In Utah, and again, through shared stewardship,
that is one of the approaches that we have taken. We have
invested in a position of a wood utilization specialist within
the division, and having that person to determine what wood is
out there, how can we utilize that wood, and how can we get
that wood off to the forest to be an economic benefit in the
State is something that we are very focused on, and we are
starting to build success in that area. It is a very important
topic.
Senator Romney. Thank you. I would be happy to hear from
any other member of the panel that would like to address as
well. Yes, Director.
Ms. Andreani. Thank you. One of the commission
recommendations does point to the continuing and additional
needed investment in biomass utilization technologies and
investments in those businesses. Because much of this the wood
in the West particularly in Ponderosa pine area, is very low or
no value, and we need to look at other ways that we can create
value out of those products. So continuing investments in those
areas is going to be critical. Thank you.
Senator Romney. Thank you. Let me turn to another topic
that you raised, which is the workforce and the pay. Again,
Director Barnes, you indicated a desire to provide the
appropriate pay between State and local individuals, but there
has been discussion about the difference in pay with Federal as
well as State and local, and how those compare, and the
conflict that may exist.
Likewise in this regard, there is some discussion about
full-time versus part-time. At the Federal level, we have part-
time individuals. Who wants to take a job that is going to
require you to have a salary or provide a salary for you maybe
five or six months a year, but the rest of the year you got no
pay. Are there solutions in this regard that we need to
consider?
Ms. Barnes. Yes, Senator Romney. Recently, a couple years
ago, Utah passed H.B. 65, which increased wildfire pay. We
increased that and brought people up to the level which we felt
was comparable with Federal pay of Federal wildland
firefighters.
Right now, we feel that Utah is in a good place compared
with our Federal partners, but there is still that compensation
bracket with regard to benefits. Some of our time-limited
firefighters that fight fire just throughout the season do not
receive a benefits package. That is also an important piece of
that puzzle; bringing people on. As we talked about, fire
season is not just fire season anymore, it's fire year.
Compensating is very important.
It is also very important to not have a swift difference in
firefighter pay from agency to agency. When a fire happens, it
knows no boundary. We are all out on the landscape. We are
working together. We are working to put that fire out. If you
are a State wildland firefighter or you are a Federal wildland
firefighter, we should all be making an amount that is similar
so that there is no difference in what these people are doing
out there in saving our resources.
Senator Romney. Thank you. Any other individuals, please?
Dr. Moore-Merrell. Please. Thank you, Senator, for that. I
would like to, if I may, transition just a bit to our local
firefighters. As you have noted there is a shortage of wildland
firefighters, but certainly we are having a shortage in the
structural side as well. It is up to the structural
firefighters to often cover on Federal State lands as
regardless, they are the first boots on the ground, not a
Federal firefighter. I would like to express my gratitude,
certainly to the Senate for already have passed the SAFER Act.
This is critical to making sure that we can continue to recruit
structural firefighters across the Nation because we are on the
edge of a shortage nationwide.
Senator Romney. Thank you. Any others have any comment? If
not, I am going to turn to Senator Butler, and let her take
over. Obviously, we are very much aware of the tragedies and
the wildfires that have occurred in California in recent years.
Appreciate your being here and turn to you for questions you
may have.
Senator Butler. Thank you, Senator Romney, and thank you to
all of the witnesses and my colleagues who are here. I
appreciate you, mark in the moment, Senator Romney, and our
colleagues who are having to do multiple things sort of all at
the same time because I do not think it is a reflection. Please
do not see it as a reflection of the commitment of this body to
this incredibly important issue. I think it is an important
note for those who are watching to understand what is happening
here.
I would love to pick up on this conversation about
firefighters because I think that they are just a critical
asset to the entire sort of complex puzzle that you-all are
managing as it relates to community safety, and environmental
standards, as well as land preservation.
As was noted, Director Merrell, the Senate Appropriations
package last week that extended the temporary pay increase for
Federal wildland firefighters, I think it is important for us
to note that, at least the data that I have seen in President
Biden's Fiscal Year 2025 budget proposal, Congress must now
pass a permanent increase to the base pay to give our nation's
firefighters the long-term certainty that everyone here has
spoken to.
Now, Director Merrell, I have heard estimates that Congress
that had we not extended the pay increase, 30 to 50 percent of
Federal wildland firefighters might have left their jobs. I
would love to hear your thoughts about how a reduction of this
scale might impact the Federal Government's ability to be the
kind of partner that I hear is required in order to meet this
crisis that we are dealing with.
Dr. Moore-Merrell. Absolutely. Thank you, ma'am, for the
question. Certainly, I will address your initial question about
what would be the impact if we lost that many firefighters
across the Nation, certainly, our Federal firefighters.
It is huge because then it defaults to our local and State.
They are already covering because there is a shortage. If we do
not pay the Federal firefighters, the wildland firefighters,
and pay them year-round to take on what is their responsibility
on Federal lands to be there first, initially the burden is
still falling on our local firefighters to get there.
Then when they can deploy from the Federal wildland, or
interior, or other agencies, they are arriving, but it is
later. We have already noted the impact if we do not get to
these ignitions quickly. We must have resources.
The other thing is sustainability of the pay for our
wildland Federal firefighters. Not just a bonus pay, not just a
one-time that is not pensionable. They need pay increase. Right
now, they can go and apply at Target or somewhere and make
almost double what they are making an hour here. Our most
skilled set, our smokejumpers, these, and others, and I am
certainly going to defer to the forester here in the room to
answer this, but this is something that we must address as our
workforce across the board.
Senator Butler. Say louder for the people in the back.
Thank you so much for making that point so clear. Relying on
the people that we have to do this work is critically
important.
Mr. Fogerson, I am going to turn to you for my next
question. As was noted, and you know, is widely known and
reported, California has been just sort of ground zero for so
much of the accelerated experience of wildfire that, that we
are experiencing as a country.
In 2018, our Camp Fire killed 85 people, destroyed 19,000
homes, burned 153,000 acres, and cost nearly $17 billion in
damages. The immediate aftermath of the fire impacted
individuals struggled to access adequate shelter. Those who did
access shelter faced an outbreak of norovirus and crime.
Nearly six years after the fire, many of the affected areas
have yet to rebuild. Further, elderly individuals made up a
majority of the 85 fatalities, demonstrating the
disproportionate impacts of wildfires on vulnerable
populations.
Mr. Fogerson, your testimony highlights the ongoing
struggle of Butte County, and the towns of Paradise, Magalia,
Concow, and Butte Creek Canyon to recover and rebuild. You note
in your testimony that it remains an important watermark for
you in the context of the whole community recovery. Can you
elaborate on some takeaways from the Camp Fire and what you
would suggest that we as Congress take as action?
Mr. Fogerson. Absolutely. Thank you for the question,
ma'am. Those fires were the first time we really saw the huge
impact of loss of major homes in a resource-poor community. A
resource-poor community is a rural frontier community, much
like we see Northern California and Nevada.
When we look at it from the southern States, when we have a
hurricane, we are able to go put a FEMA trailer out. We are
able to do those things. Everyone has their mindset, that is
how we are going to do it. But we can not actually do that on
the West Coast, especially as my friend from the GAO said, you
can not just go put a trailer on a burned-out section of land
because of what happens with the dirt.
The take homes that I have taken from it is looking at how
are we going to house these people long-term? It is not going
to be a 30-day we are going to have to put this person up, but
how do we figure out how to make encampments, or something
along those lines, to take care of these people for the longer-
term period of time?
I have a neighbor that lives in Gardenville, Nevada with me
and came from the Camp Fire area. Had his house burned down,
and was unable because of supply chain issues and Coronavirus
Disease 2019 (COVID-19) to actually rebuild his house. Had to
relocate to another community. How do we look at those things?
How do we fix that so that way we have that in our pocket? That
is where I see FEMA as being a big partner in this, and
treating that wildfire as we do hurricanes and not as a land
management issue that encroached upon privately owned property.
Senator Butler. Thank you so much. I have lots of questions
for all of you and a limited amount of time. I would love to
just end with a comment.
All of you have in your testimony to disaster recovery, and
I think that is an incredibly important focus and appreciate
you for highlighting it. One of the topics that we have not
touched on yet is the recovery of industries that are not
explicitly covered under the FEMA programs. In particular, I am
concerned with the recovery of the agriculture community and
industry.
In California, wildfires, which have become increasingly
worse, have an extreme impact not just on California's farmers,
but on the food supply that drives up cost for groceries of
everyday families. I want to urge my colleagues as we consider
and do our work, that we work together in a bipartisan way to
not only ensure that FEMA has the resources it needs to address
disaster recovery, but that we are also providing funding for
the Department of Agriculture Emergency Relief Program, so that
we are ensuring that agricultural providers and producers can
have robust and timely recovery, so that we could all work
together to continue to bring down costs for work and families.
Thank you.
Chairman Peters [presiding.] Senator Johnson, you are
recognized for your questions.
OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR JOHNSON
Senator Johnson. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thanks for holding
this hearing. I think it is really fascinating. I come from a
State where we obviously have forest fires, but you know,
generally not the extent of as you have out West. I do find
this fascinating, and I actually appreciate, whether you are on
board with climate change or not. I do not think I even heard
that word used because we are talking about the practical
things we can do, and I want to focus on that, again, not
coming from a western State.
Ms. Adreani, you talked about the post-fire and the
flooding afterwards. Is it because these things are sparked by
huge thunderstorms and that caused, or is there something else
occurring? Is there lack of vegetation that is not absorbing
the moisture? I mean, just describe what is happening,
geologically that you have post-fire floods. I am fascinated by
that.
Ms. Andreani. Thank you, Senator. In the southwest, and
actually, Utah, other areas of the West experience of what is
called, a monsoon, a traditional monsoon in the summer.
Typically, anywhere from the end of June through September.
Then, certainly, you have seen in California, the atmospheric
rivers, you have seen other types of rainfall events, mountain
thunderstorms that can create post-wildfire flooding. That is
the dynamic.
What you see on the ground is that when a wildfire occurs,
particularly if it is a severe wildfire with very severe
impacts to the soil, the soil actually becomes hydrophobic.
Senator Johnson. You can not absorb it.
Ms. Andreani. It acts like glass. That will typically take
place for through an initial season, maybe even longer
depending upon the circumstances. You get this massive increase
in flood flows.
We have seen in an area recently that was burned up, to 26
times, the pre-fire flood flows in those areas. You are getting
massive removal of sediment in many of these areas. We have
steep slopes that have burned very severely, so you are getting
massive wasting of sediment debris that is coming from the
wooded area. You no longer have any foliage to deflect the
rainfall, and so you see these catastrophic events after the
fire.
Senator Johnson. Again, if it is coincidental the massive
flooding is caused by the fact they had a fire beforehand, and
oftentimes, it occurs more than 72 hours, then that is a
problem for Federal funding.
Ms. Andreani. Exactly. There is this window between events.
For example, after the pipeline fire in 2022, we had 45 major
flood events that summer. Once you have a flood event, then
they create a 72-hour window within which you are not eligible.
Even though the total amount is over double our current
financial threshold for a declaration, we never met the
declaration level. That means we are not eligible for
reimbursement, and it means we are not eligible for public
assistance.
Senator Johnson. Again, I think we are all aware that the
Federal Government creates these rules. Sometimes they are
cross purposes, and sometimes they did not make sense. Again, I
appreciate the testimony so that we can hopefully get that in
better alignment.
At the same time permitting, and the cross purposes of the
agencies. I know Mr. Currie mentioned the fact that the EPA is
all about reducing smoke, but one of the mitigating factors
would be to do controlled burns.
Mr. Fogerson, you mentioned your agencies got together and
you came up with, I think, you said, 148 different
recommendations that were 100 percent agreed to. Laying aside
the financing and some of those permitting, can you talk about
the mitigation, because I have always heard we are just not
removing the fuel? Talk about controlled burns. What are the
best things we can do in terms of mitigation that everybody
agrees to?
Mr. Fogerson. Absolutely, Senator. Thank you very much.
This is a very wicked problem. There is not an easy answer to
that. We just need to do more prescribed burns on the forest
lands, because we are talking forest lands, we are talking
range lands, we are talking the built environment.
It is using biomass tools that we talked about earlier so
that way we can take out the dead and down timber that is not
salvageable for costing, using the logging operations, doing
controlled burn operations.
We do run into some issues with controlled burn operations
because when we look at using FEMA hazard mitigation funds, we
are not allowed to do controlled burns, but we can do
controlled burns using Forest Service or BLM funds.
Senator Johnson. But you also have problems with anti-
loggers, that type of thing as well. Right?
Mr. Fogerson. 100 percent. That is why it is kind of the
wicked problem of how do we do reduce the fuel volume in the
forced environment, the rangeland environment, and the built
environment.
Some of that also involves using wildland urban interface
codes. That way we have homeowners that are actually protecting
their communities around it, tying our community wildland fire
protection plans that are required for dealing with the
foresters, and BLM, with the FEMA's hazard mitigation plans.
That way there is one cohesive plan on how we are going to
reduce that risk.
Senator Johnson. I continue to see different charts saying
that we really do not have an increase in the number of acres
being burned every year. Some over time it is actually
decreased. But I think, oftentimes, like hurricanes as well, we
have just built up so much valuable real estate on the coast,
or we have built so many expensive homes in fire-prone areas.
Is that the issue here?
I thought it was interesting too, you can not have any
Federal funding until it actually crosses into State land,
which again seems insane, but kind of understand that. Ms.
Merrell.
Dr. Moore-Merrell. Certainly, I would like to address the
building toward risk. You are absolutely right there, sir. We
are building toward risk. We continue to build toward fire-
prone lands, and if we do so without proper ingress and egress
for the population living there, without proper building codes
being implemented, adopted, and enforced using fire resistant
materials, we know that geography is going to burn.
We have to pre-plan for that so that we do not have these
disasters. Fire's going to be normal. We are going to have to
have fire-adapted communities, but they must pre-plan. The
Federal Government cannot bring all the solutions to this. It
is too big a problem. Individuals who choose to live there are
going to have to mitigate their property.
We are taking a heavy role in that; in education about what
mitigation looks like, what does right look like, keeping
vegetation off your home, not using mulch, not having wood
fences. These are very practical solutions to making a fire-
prone community.
Senator Johnson. Just real quick. As you read more about
the Maui and Lahaina disaster, and people just knew that was a
disaster waiting to hit and is there kind of a booklet? Is
there publication of here are the real concerning areas?
People were not thinking about this before they moved in
there because I love to live around trees. Have we identified
these areas, and we are just simply not addressing them, or
what are we doing toward that--and I apologize going over time
here.
Dr. Moore-Merrell. We are continuing to identify those
risks. We can look at a fire risk index for the wildland, for
our forested areas. What we do not yet have is a fire risk
index for the built environment.
As we build toward those risks, because of the building
materials that are being used, because of climate change, which
you appropriately brought up, the drought that we are having
all of the soil moisture reduction.
On one side of the island in Maui, it is perfectly green.
On the other side, everything is dry. We are seeing that not
only across the islands, but in areas across the Nation that
have never burned before. Louisiana, for example.
These are areas that we have to pay attention if we are
going to build here. Coupled with climate change, we have to
bring solution pre, not post, necessarily.
Senator Johnson. OK. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you.
Chairman Peters. Thank you, Senator. My bipartisan bill,
the Fire Grants and Safety Act reauthorizes the U.S. Fire
Administration the Assistance to Firefighters Grant Program, as
well as the Staffing for Adequate Fire and Emergency Response
Grant Program through 2030. The bill would also increase
authorization of appropriations for the fire administration for
the first time since 2012.
Dr. Merrell, can you share with us what the U.S. Fire
Administration would do with these increased resources to
better help protect our first responders who are preparing for
these wildfires?
Dr. Moore-Merrell. I appreciate that, Senator, and thank
you so much for shepherding that bill and for already passing
those in the Senate.
Yes, the U.S. Fire Administration needs the extra
initiative, the funding, to be able to expand our own resources
to prepare our firefighters across the Nation to mitigate pre,
to be able to respond, and to be able to assist with recovery.
It is imperative that we not only educate the communities.
Community engagement here has been made abundantly noted that
the individuals are going to have to take responsibility, but
it is our firefighters who connect with those individuals in
their communities to teach them those things.
We need that. We need the data. We need to be able to build
a new analytics platform. Our National Fire Incident System was
built in 1976, and so we need the funding to be able to build
an appropriate data platform to inform this fire risk index
that we have discussed.
These funds are necessary to be able to elevate the USFA to
an appropriate place where we can engage according to the
recommendations in the commission. There are many there that
talk about USFA's engagement at the community level with our
structural firefighters across the Nation, because they are the
boots on the ground many times early on. Thank you for leaning
into that.
Chairman Peters. Thank you for your answer. Mr. Fogerson, a
question for you is just how vital are these grant programs to
local fire departments, especially, given the fact that you are
all finding yourselves on the front lines protecting your
communities and resources are clearly stretched? But let this
Committee know how important these resources are.
Mr. Fogerson. Absolutely, Senator. Thank you so much for
the support of these grant programs. When I was the local
government Deputy Fire Chief, we had assistance for
firefighters' grants, and we had the SAFER Grant Program. When
you look at, especially, the built environment, we are putting
homes in these urban interface areas, but homes do not provide
the tax revenue to start with. It takes a while for that tax
revenue to catch up, and so when we put a subdivision in, we
might not have the funding for staffing.
These SAFER Grants have a cost shared from the Federal
Government that varies over time, that allows that local
government to make that large investment, and I was able to do
that. We had funds for two people, but we need six people to
fill the two positions. We were able to use a SAFER Grant to
hire the other four, and then by the time the cost allocation
came to 100 percent on our side instead of the cost share, we
were able to absorb that in our budget. But we were able to, in
that four-year period, have two more additional firefighters on
the streets, whereas we would not have had that without that
SAFER grant.
The Assistance for Firefighters Grants. Things are very
expensive in the fire world. You are looking at a fire engine
that we use on a wildland fire, a type 3 engine, costing
$300,000 to $400,000. Our law enforcement partners get a lot of
funds from Department of Justice (DOJ). Our public health
friends get a lot of funds from the Center for Disease Control
and Prevention (CDC) Asper. These are the fire services way of
getting those funds for those high-ticket dollar items that are
necessary to provide protection in our local communities, but
might be out of the reach of some of these jurisdictions, and
the competitive process that is used helps to ensure that we
are giving it to the right places, I think, nationally.
Chairman Peters. OK. Thank you. Certainly, the Maui fires
are just a devastating example of how these wildfires can
destroy communities in catastrophic ways. As a remote group of
islands, Hawaii is especially vulnerable to disasters because
it is difficult for resources to quickly reach the State when
disaster strikes. FEMA has worked with other Federal, State,
and local partners to provide continuing relief and recovery to
disaster survivors with hundreds of FEMA staff deployed to
Hawaii to assist in those local efforts.
But Mr. Currie, my question is for you. You recently
traveled to Hawaii to examine the recovery efforts. Would you
mind sharing with the Committee some of your top concerns for
recovery at this point?
Mr. Currie. Sure. Yes, we went there shortly after the
fires hit and toured the affected areas. A couple of them I
mentioned in my opening statement. One of my biggest concerns
after every disaster is housing for survivors. In a wildfire,
it is 10 times harder than traditional disasters for many
reasons.
First of all, a lot of times these happen remote locations,
and also in high-cost locations. Whether it be Maui,
California, there is not a lot of affordable housing that can
be used temporarily or hotels or things like that. I think, in
Maui right now, according to FEMA, there is still almost 5,000
people that are in some type of hotel or temporary condominium
situation.
Also with a fire, you have to wait a lot longer. If you
have a flood, typically you can get your house ready to live in
within months. Possibly with a fire, it could take years, and
you are fighting with insurance, you are trying to get Federal
assistance.
FEMA does a really good job with really short-term housing,
and then United States Department of Housing and Urban
Development (HUD) can come in on the long end, but there is
this middle ground where people often get stuck and they just
do not have a good housing option. Housing is one of the
biggest things that I see as the challenge.
The other thing is debris removal. This is always a really
tough part of any disaster. But with fires, again, 10 times
harder. The debris is toxic. You have to figure out where you
can take it, how it is going to be excavated. You can imagine a
lot of this is privately owned land, so people are very
sensitive about just excavating and removing their property. In
Maui, they just now figured out where they are going to store
this, this toxic property and treat it.
Those are two examples of fire that are just way more
different and difficult than traditional disasters, and our
system is just not prepared and designed to handle that yet.
Chairman Peters. Thank you. Senator Lankford, you are
recognized for your questions.
Senator Lankford. Mr. Chair, thank you.
Thank you, all of you. Obviously, this is a national issue
that we have to continue to be able to focus on. Appreciate the
insight from folks that are on the ground. I want to talk a
little bit about the permitting piece of this. Ms. Barnes, you
brought this up earlier on. What permitting issues do we need
to try to be able to work through on Federal permitting post-
wildfire or pre wildfire that need to be done? Any ideas? Ms.
Barnes, you mentioned this earlier in your opening statement,
but anyone can jump in on that.
Ms. Barnes. Yes. I can start on that, and thank you for the
question. I think it is just that permitting reform of the
alignment; the clearing indexes that we need to receive, the
NEPA part of it, there's issues with contracting.
Senator Lankford. Can I zero in? What is the NEPA piece of
it?
Ms. Barnes. Yes. NEPA often, and in Utah, gets held up a
lot on litigation. That takes people away from that work that
gets done on the ground. It takes a lot of staff time, a lot of
money----
Senator Lankford. Is this post-fire or pre-fire?
Ms. Barnes. Both.
Senator Lankford. OK.
Ms. Barnes. Any type of mitigation work or post-fire work
that----
Senator Lankford. Is the issue there for NEPA, not that
NEPA exists, it is the litigation around it or what needs to be
resolved?
Ms. Barnes. It is the procedures that we need to go through
on NEPA that get held up in litigation in order to get the
projects done. Working on those to find more efficiencies
through that process, I think, would be the best thing to avoid
being held up in litigation. That takes a lot of staff time. It
takes away from getting work done on the ground.
Having a clear sense of what can be done as far as
mechanisms that we can do in the forest, and categorical
exclusions; what we can do to get through the process faster.
The faster we can get through the process, the more work that
we can get done on the ground.
Senator Lankford. OK. When you talk about categorical
exclusions, again, is this before fire and mediation before, or
post?
Ms. Barnes. I would say it would be both. In Utah, we are
years behind on getting work done, and so we need to be able to
get in there, get work done. Then after a fire, there is an
immediate need to get things done after a fire happens. But in
order to get ahead of the wildfire crisis, we need to start
mitigating hazardous fuels immediately.
Senator Lankford. OK. Any other permitting comments anybody
may make? Go ahead.
Ms. Andreani. Thank you, Senator. Relative to forest
restoration and the work that is necessary to improve the
habitat and the area, reduce the threat of wildfire. A couple
other tools are that both FEMA and the Forest Service are
typically limited in their willingness to allow third-parties
to potentially fund conducting the actual NEPA process on their
behalf. They are very limited in the resources that they have
available internally to actually do that physical work on the
ground, go out and do the cultural surveys, biological surveys.
We are utilizing, for example, in our area are Good
Neighbor Authority with the Forest Service to be able to
actually perform some of that work on their behalf. They still
go through the regulatory process. They still have to approve
or, typically they go to a cadex, but we are able to step in
and help with those costs and/or resources that we have under
contract to perform that work by credible, licensed
professionals.
Bringing more flexibility, we approach FEMA about doing
this for a fuels reduction project that we have in our area
that is four years in, and we are still waiting for the
environmental to be done. That would have been a fairly simple
solution. Yes, we are not taking over the regulatory
responsibility, but providing them with the legwork, boots on
the ground to get the work done.
Senator Lankford. Yes. Obviously, while you are waiting on
permitting, you are dealing with the potential of a pretty
expensive wildfire. For some reason, wildfires do not wait on
NEPA permits.
Ms. Andreani. They do not. We have seen that repeatedly.
Senator Lankford. Let me ask a couple of clarifications. I
brought up in my opening statement as well about power, and
power lines, and sparking Red Flag Warnings, and what we deal
with at times. Anything that you have seen that has been
effective for reducing the number of wildfires caused by power
lines without actually just shutting down all power to
communities as well?
Mr. Currie. Yes. As you know, oftentimes wind. If you have
another type of storm, it can cause that, and I mean, some of
the mitigation measures that you use for hurricanes, tornadoes,
or straight line winds, here in the East, are effective for
preventing this from happening. The problem is that we have
mitigated a lot of these things in the East because of the
threat of hurricanes, and tornadoes, and things like that, but
we have not done that in the west.
Senator Lankford. OK. Is it just a rule, or is it just
physical structure that is attached to the line?
Mr. Currie. I think it has been more of a matter of the
risk, and the threat over time, and where most of the Federal
money has gone over the years.
Senator Lankford. Yes. A lot of those are not Federal
dollars. Those are local power companies, and co-ops, and
others on that. What I am asking is, is it the way they are
managing the line, or is it a piece of hardware, or something
else that is missing or software that is missing to manage it?
Go ahead someone else.
Ms. Barnes. Yes. I can touch on what Utah has done on that.
I think it is a collaboration effort with those power
companies. In Utah, we have taken a stance of identifying where
that risk is on those power lines, if it is a high, medium, or
low risk, and then working with those agencies to mitigate that
risk.
Developing fire mitigation plans with those agencies of how
they are going to manage the risk that they have around those
lines is very important.
Senator Lankford. OK. Mr. Fogerson.
Mr. Fogerson. Great question, Senator. In Nevada, we have
taken a little more proactive response, kind of falls into Utah
lines, where we prioritize what zone that power line is in and
the odds of it starting a fire. Then our power company has
actually contracted local government fire departments to go out
and do the pole grubbing and the clear the lines. Then the
power company is working with the Public Utilities Commission
in Nevada to replace the at-risk power poles.
A lot of the infrastructure's old, and, and I think that
speaks to what the GAO representative was talking about was on
the East Coast. More of that stuff's probably been more
recently replaced because of a disaster. We just have not had
the disaster to cause that power pole to need to be replaced
yet.
Now they are going and replacing the poles, they are able
to wrap the poles with special material that actually expands
to absorb the heat. That way we keep those lines in place when
a fire does come through as well.
Senator Lankford. OK. That is really helpful, Mr. Chair. I
would take up anyone that is here that is willing to be able to
have a chainsaw in their backyard and be able to bring it on
over to be able to help us because we deal with these red
cedars, as I mentioned before, which are explosive to us.
They are a nice pretty tree. They are terrible pollen in
the springtime, and they are terrible for being a fire problem
for us, and they are an invasive species. It is one of the
areas that we have to deal with on mitigation. I know where we
are clearing forest and trying to be able to manage underbrush
and things that are there. We have the same issue in some of
our open prairie areas as well, and we will have to be able to
work through processes to be able to resolve that in the days
ahead. Thank you to all of you.
Chairman Peters. Very good. Senator, I appreciate you
warning us on explosive trees in Oklahoma. [Laughter.]
Senator Rosen. I have my chainsaw ready. Ready for duty.
Chairman Peters. Bring your chainsaw. We will take some of
them down and have fewer explosions. Sounds great. Senator
Rosen, you are recognized for your questions.
Senator Rosen. Thank you, Chair Peters. I want to build on
this last question about Senator Lankford brought up about
shutting down the power lines, and thank you Chief Fogerson. I
want to say that for shutting down power lines in a place like
Nevada, that we regularly have temperatures greater than 100
degrees all throughout our State through a large portion of the
year, this could create a second deadly consequence by them not
having power.
It is just as bad. You could have a fire or high winds. We
also get the Santa Anas. We get a lot of those winds coming in
from the coast. Do we want the power lines to go in far? Do we
want to kill people because there is no air conditioning? This
is why it is important that we talk about these things.
But I am going to talk about three main topics. One about
smoke, one about land management, like I said, 80 percent of
Nevada's public lands. Then our wildfire designation upgrade,
which I know is near and dear to the hearts of us in Nevada.
There really is a big impact of wildfire smoke on our air
quality for our local communities. We are no stranger to that
in Nevada. We experience hazardous air quality for weeks at a
time. It forces small businesses to close their doors. Schools
have to keep their students inside. It has lots of health
risks, and the smoke levels are just as expected to increase
more frequently as climate change causes more frequent and
severe wildfires.
When smoke plagues communities like those in my State, we
often do not have the tools to properly mitigate that, and that
is really important. Persistent hazardous air quality as a
result of wildfire smoke, it is not currently eligible for
major disaster declaration under the Stafford Act. It makes it
difficult for us to get those Federal funds.
People really suffer, those with chronic lung disease. I
remember being up there a few years ago, and I can just tell
you, I could not breathe after a while. The sky is just brown
from the smoke.
Chief Fogerson, can you talk about what happens
particularly up in Northern Nevada when that smoke just hangs
over us coming in, and what it means if we could upgrade smoke
as a major disaster declaration?
Mr. Fogerson. Thank you for the question, ma'am. A few
years ago, I think it was the Rim Fire, it was the first time
that we actually saw this impact because it has not happened--
from my history of the fire series, I could not remember till
the Rim Fire, and it just floated in and stuck around for a
month. Then we had a year without it, and then it seems like
every year now, every summer, we have two months' worth of
socked in smoke that is causing air quality issues.
I do not know if there is a good answer to it. There is a
lot of people that have some thoughts on it, and we have had
some jokes about it between the two of us as well and what some
of these items are. But we have to figure out how we use good
fire to reduce the number of fires that there are so that way
we have lighter smoke that is not as heavy, as dense, and is in
the right time of year for the air balances to occur.
Then the other one is we have to start investing more in
public health and sensors. That way, we can see where is the
bad air quality at and do additional research on what the
impacts of air quality is. Because one part of it is on not
only on the community, but then we also have to think of our
firefighters that are on the fire line in that smoke, and then
sleeping in a base camp in that smoke, and then taking their
two-day break at home in that smoke.
Senator Rosen. They have the long-term health implications.
We know up in Northern Nevada, we have Lake Tahoe, and all of
the wildlife, and other things in the community impacted, that
ecosystem as well. I think investing in research and
development (R&D) and how we address this is going to be good
for everyone.
I know that the commission recommended we invest in a
national smoke monitoring and alert system, and you think that
would be a good thing for us to invest in?
Mr. Fogerson. Yes, ma'am, I do. Because when we look at it,
urban areas have a lot of those smoke monitors. We look at
rural frontiers such as Nevada, such as Utah, we do not have
many of those monitors. It is harder to give people ideas of
what is the air quality level and what precautions they should
take.
Senator Rosen. Thank you. I want to continue to talk about
response and recovery. Eighty percent of Nevada, Atlanta,
managed by the Federal Government. 60 percent managed by the
Bureau of Land Management. We have multiple Federal agencies.
It is kind of an alphabet soup. The Wildfire Commission reports
that five Federal land management agencies have missions
related to wildfire management. All five of these agencies
interact with you with the tribes, with our communities.
I am going to stick on Nevada here. What are the challenges
of having so many agencies, and what might you suggest to help
streamline this process, particularly, in this middle of a
disaster?
Mr. Fogerson. Absolutely, ma'am. Part of the issue is
trying to get the rules to be the same for each of the Federal
agencies. Each of the Federal agencies, whether it is
Department of Agriculture, or Department of Interior, to have
different rules on how they do things.
Streamlining those, how the rules are the same for the same
Federal agencies on how we use those firefighters, and work-
rest ratios, and all that stuff that National Wildfire
Coordinators Group is starting to work pretty hard on, but
there is still some nuances there. The agreements with between
local government and the different agencies is an issue.
Then the bigger part of it is pulling in that emergency
management. That way we have the enterprise-wide approach. That
way we can bring in public works, we can bring in law
enforcement, we bring in fire, we can bring in emergency
management and have that coordinated collaboration like we do
in an emergency operations center.
Senator Rosen. A central point of contact in the midst of
the emergency would be most helpful to cut through some of
these different bureaucracies, would you say?
Mr. Fogerson. Absolutely. I would agree with you, ma'am.
Senator Rosen. I am going to move on to something that I
know is really important to you and really important to all of
us. We need to respect the wildfire, right? How do we do that?
We need to give it the same respect that we give the disaster
of hurricanes.
We need to be proactively ready to prepare. We see it
coming. We know it is coming, but we can not wait till it
crosses this particular road for you to do anything or some of
the other groups to do anything. This is impacting our homes,
our communities, our health, our ability to manage everything
that happens.
We have to do more to detect and respond, but moving that
designation up to be like a hurricane. We see it coming, and we
are there prepared and ready. What would this do to improve the
outcome; saving lives, saving businesses, and just getting that
that fire out, right?
Mr. Fogerson. Absolutely. The commission recommends a fire
intelligence center or a fire environment center that is based
upon The National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration
(NOAA), and based upon just like a hurricane center. Then we
move resources that way, then we can put those fires out before
they get big, or have the resources there to utilize that fire
in a beneficial manner because we have sufficient resources
there to make that decision.
That is the whole crux of ensuring we have the right
resource at the right place at the right time, based upon what
science today seems to be able to tell us through either
artificial intelligence (AI) bottling with our fire cameras, or
the new sensors the fire administration put in Hawaii, or the
weather data we are getting from NOAA.
Senator Rosen. Like I said, it is no longer the Western
States. It is every State. We need to respect the wildfire, and
we need to prevent and attack it. Prevent it when we can,
attack it when it is there, and work on mitigating it before
and cleaning up after.
Thank you. I thank you all for being here and everything
you are doing. This is critical work to every community across
America. I hope that all the mitigation prevention works so we
are not having to respond, but I am grateful that you are
thinking about the best ways to do that. Thank you.
Chairman Peters. Thank you, Senator Rosen. Senator Carper,
you are recognized for your questions
Senator Carper. Yes. Thanks very much. Thanks, again, for
giving me a chance to talk a little bit about not just
addressing the symptoms of problems and challenges, but also
addressing the root causes. Now I have went to another hearing.
Now I am back here, and I want to ask a couple of questions.
I want to ask a question, I think, for Mr. Currie,
involving how do we improve coordination between FEMA and local
authorities? After that, I want to ask a question of Dr. Moore-
Merrell, how do we better support at-risk communities?
Before I do that, let me just say that our planet's on
fire. It is not the western part of this country. Our planet's
on fire. The National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration
tells us last year was the hottest year on the planet. Hottest
year as far as way back as we can look. Hottest year.
They have a bicycle race in France, and a year before that,
Tour de France, they had to call off parts of the race because
the pavement was melting, on the race. It is not just
incidental to the western part of this country.
It is not just sea level rise on the eastern seaboard and
other places. It is real, and as we try to address the symptoms
of these challenges, and that is also important that we
continue to focus on root causes.
Mr. Currie, if I could, with respect to improving
coordination between FEMA and local authorities, the evidence
is, we think, pretty clear. The threat of wildfire is
escalating at a rapid pace and posing significant risks to the
health and safety of communities, not just out West, but across
our country.
Wildfires are not only more frequent, also more destructive
than ever before, and more likely to burn hotter because of
climate change. Extreme and persistent drought create drier
fuel for those fires, and its accumulation over years creates
the conditions that lead to high temperature firestorms that
are extremely dangerous and move fast. The result is more loss
of life and more loss of property.
The FEMA plays a critical role in assisting State and local
authorities in reducing the risk to our environment, our
infrastructure, and our public health. The Government
Accountability Office has conducted audits in recent years
looking into the Federal Government's role in wildfire
management.
Question for you, Mr. Currie. Through the various audits
and reviews that GAO has conducted, how can the Federal
Government better improve its coordination with State and local
authorities? I put my old recovering Governor hat on, how can
we better coordinate with State and local authorities more
productively to address the impact and risk of wildfires.
Mr. Currie. Thank you, Senator. Senator Rosen laid this out
really well. I think what we need to do with wildfires is we
need to treat them, or prepare for them, and respond to them
the same way we do for hurricanes.
I will just use a Delaware analogy.
Senator Carper. Oh, I love it when our witnesses do this.
[Laughter.]
We will get more time for your testimony, sir.
Mr. Currie. If we expect a hurricane to landfall in
Delaware, we also declare an emergency--we do not just declare
an emergency in Delaware. We declare an emergency in Maryland,
Virginia, and maybe even a couple States north or south of that
because they are unpredictable. We know it is going to be bad,
and we just go ahead and assume that is going to happen. We can
take all the necessary steps to do that.
That is not how it works in wildfire. We sort of wait and
hope it does not happen. We hope it does not cross from Federal
or rural land into a populated area. That's just got to change.
That mentality and whatever sort of rules and legislation are
potentially behind that needs to change.
The other thing we can do is to improve coordination. I
think FEMA particularly has gotten pretty good in terms of
coordination with State and local on response. Recovery
programs are the challenge. All these recovery programs across
the 30 different agencies at the Federal Government that
provide for some type of assistance, they were never designed
to work together for recovery.
Like Senator Lankford said with the permitting, they all
have different rules, requirements, timeframes, and they are
not designed to work in concert together. What happens is, at
the State and local level, that is just a very frustrating
process in the years of recovery after.
Senator Carper. All right. Thank you for that. I noticed
some of your colleagues up there nodding their heads and trying
to wish they had a Delaware example they could offer us as
well. [Laughter.]
Dr. Moore-Merrell, if you could, I already telegraphed my
pitch, but question with respect to supporting at-risk
communities. Fire departments in Delaware and across our
country are depending more and more, as you know, on Federal
assistance to effectively respond to wildfires as the threat
level has increased over time. As my colleagues on this
Committee have heard me say more than a few times, we got to
find out what works. We got to do more of that.
What specific measures are the U.S. Fire Administration and
FEMA taking to ensure timely and adequate support for at-risk
communities, particularly in terms of healthcare and
infrastructure resources? Also, how can we build on successful
efforts to keep up with the increasing threat level of these
devastating wildfires?
Dr. Moore-Merrell. Thank you for the question, Senator.
Yes, USFA is certainly leaning into our communities and
particularly their vulnerability to wildfires. We have noted
throughout the hearing today, the impacts of climate change,
which you have brought up already, the various impacts. We have
looked at the vulnerabilities of our land areas, and where we
are building communities toward fire-prone geographies. This
continues to escalate our risk.
We have to lean into and where USFA was leading to advocate
for building codes that are based on science. We are advocating
for technology to be able to be introduced. We are advocating
for more and more complete data, quality data that can be
leveraged to help us understand the fire risk index. Not just
in the wildland space, but once a fire hits communities, we
have no idea today the dynamic nature of that fire.
Yes, we can equate it to hurricanes and we should elevate
it to that recognition level, but what we cannot do, like a
hurricane, there is no cone for a fire. We can look at the cone
on hurricanes, we can prepare for evacuation. In fire, we do
not have that.
There is one caveat. Evacuating communities is very
dynamic, and this is a challenge that I will say to you. We are
leaning in heavily on wildfire evacuation. How we are going to
prepare communities to understand. Right now, we use a ready
set, go, while ready and set should be already happening, not
in the midst of a fire.
We have to understand that when we hit go, that is in the
midst of a fire. If we have not leaned into preparing our
people across the Nation to be able to evacuate, then we are
going to have issues like the Paradise fire, where we had 85
people trapped on the egress route, like Lahaina, where it was
so fast the time for evacuation was minimized. There are
dynamics of wildfire that do not match the hurricane model that
I do not want to lose base.
The other thing I would say, Senator, is highlighting, as
you have, in our communities, the real effect of continuing
structure fires. It is not always a wildfire that starts with
vegetation. We have structure-to-structure spread that happened
in Lahaina that becomes conflagrations in our communities, but
also, we have already lost in homes, where people should be
their safest, almost 600 people since January 1, have died in
their homes.
That does not mean all of the people who have been
displaced. This is from fire in general. You said America's
burning. I am going to echo that. America is burning, and we
need to be attentive to all methods of fire that is bringing
that about.
Senator Carper. Good. Mr. Chair, can I have maybe another
minute?
Chairman Peters. Yes.
Senator Carper. Thanks very much. Yesterday, Democrats,
Senators, gathered to hold our annual caucus retreat. It was a
wonderful time to share ideas on what is working and what is
not. Republicans had a similar kind of caucus, I believe,
yesterday. One of the things I mentioned to my colleagues
yesterday, and in terms of what is actually causing this, the
root causes behind these; our planet on fire.
About 30 percent of the greenhouse gas emissions in this
country are coming from our mobile sources, our cars, trucks,
and vans that that we drive. Probably another 25 percent comes
from power plants that generate our electricity, coal-fired
plants, natural gas-fired plants. Maybe another 20 percent
comes from manufacturing operations, think asphalt plants,
think steel mills. Those are the three majors. 30 percent, 25
percent, 20.
It is like three quarters of the root causes and the
contributors to this problem we are doing. We are working on
all of those as a country. We are working on a lot of those and
trying to provide and guide maybe some inspiration for and
provide leadership for the rest of the world.
I want to know that we are not just addressing that the
symptoms of these problems, which are tragic, but we are also
going after the root causes, and we are all in this together.
Thank you very much.
Dr. Moore-Merrell. If I may, Senator, on the greenhouse
gases. Wildfires themselves produce greenhouse gases that then
contribute to climate change that are causing the drought, that
help perpetuate wildfires. This becomes a very circular-in-
nature problem. Thank you for recognizing that. Thank you.
Senator Carper. Thanks, and thanks, Mr. Chair.
Chairman Peters. Yes. Thank you, Senator Carper. Mr.
Currie, the GAO has issued a number of reports on the Federal
Government's emergency management efforts on wildfires, on
topics ranging from Federal cooperation, to manage a growing
risk, to barriers to recruiting, to retaining Federal wildland
firefighters, and many others.
My question for you is, what are some of GAO's top
recommendations for FEMA to better help communities prepare
for, manage, and respond to wildfires? What should the
Committee know and what can we do?
Mr. Currie. A couple things. First of all, back in 2019, we
issued a report on wildfire response, and we actually
identified some of the things we are talking about today, and
how unique the response was, and how FEMA programs were not
necessarily geared toward that.
FEMA developed a plan in response to some of our
recommendations to try to change some of their programs to
better gear themselves toward wildfire. There was some progress
there, there just was not enough.
A great example is the housing one I talked about. FEMA
provides short-term housing when the Federal Government
responds to a disaster like a wildfire. This is not really
designed for the length of recovery for a wildfire that a
survivor has to deal with, and there is not really a good
option in that intermediate phase, which is what we are seeing
right now in Lahaina and trying to find places for disaster
survivors to live.
We have made recommendations related to housing. I talked
about the debris removal challenges, how there is so much
different than hurricanes. But one of the biggest things that
needs to be done is reform of the recovery process and the
recovery programs. Because, again, what we hear from the State
and local level over and over again is that the programs were
not designed to work together, and that leads to delays, and
oftentimes missed opportunities in disaster recovery.
Chairman Peters. Good. Thank you. As we wrap up here, I
have a question, Mr. Fogerson, and Ms. Andreani, if you would
address this. This deals with the Wildland Fire Mitigation and
Management Commission Report, which we mentioned had some 150
recommendations.
An awful lot to think about, but I am going to ask both of
you to prioritize some of those in your mind. There was not a
prioritization in the report, but what things stand out for
you? Mr. Fogerson, you can start and then give us some idea as
to what we should be looking at. If we are drafting
legislation, what should we be focused on?
Mr. Fogerson. Great question, Senator. I am sorry I do not
have a good answer for you because it is such a wicked problem,
that is why there is 148 recommendations we made. It would be
hard, and I would be remiss to tell you the top 3, the top 5,
the top 10.
Chairman Peters. Top 11 then. [Laughter.]
Mr. Fogerson. I would be looking at the themes that we have
in the report, the chapters, and maybe seeing how we do
legislation in each of those various chapters and grouping
those things together because one really has a nexus to
another.
We have a great chart that commission staff made for us,
and, and I am sure we can share with your staff that shows how
interconnected all the recommendations are. If you pick three,
then that eliminates a few other ones. I would really highlight
that staff looks at the chapters and sees about using that as
their priority base rather than the recommendations.
Chairman Peters. That is a good guide. Andreani, do you
have top 10 list, or top 5, or 3?
Ms. Andreani. I would concur with David that they are all
important. However, I did point to a couple in my testimony
that I think are, for lack of a better term, fairly
straightforward opportunities that can dramatically change
outcomes in communities.
I would ask you to consider those because I think their
policy level, some may, level opportunities to right-size the
problem, and address some very immediate issues that we have,
so.
Chairman Peters. OK. Very good. In the interest time, we
are going to wrap up. But Dr. Merrell, I am going to be
submitting a question for the record\1\ for FEMA to kind of
identify for us, which recommendations FEMA is implementing on
its own from the commission, and which recommendations you
believe require congressional action, specifically. I will be
submitting that for the record and would look forward to seeing
your response to that.
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\1\ The information referred to appears in the Appendix on page
108.
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I would like to, first, just thank all of our witnesses for
joining us here today to share your testimony and expertise.
This is an important conversation, and one that is not in
today. We have a lot of work to do, including a lot of
recommendations to act on, but also support the men and women
who are dealing with this issue each and every day, and
oftentimes risking their lives to do that.
Congress and the entire Federal Government must do its part
to address this increasing threat, and we must do everything we
can to create resilient communities in the process. I look
forward to our continuing work together to improve both
mitigation, preparedness, response, as well as recovery
capabilities.
The record for this hearing will remain open for 15 days
until 5 p.m. on March 29, 2024, for the submission of
statements and questions for the record.
Thank you, again. This hearing is now adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 11:46 a.m., the hearing was adjourned.]
A P P E N D I X
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