    [Senate Hearing 118-262]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]

                                                            S. Hrg. 118-262

                       NATION ON FIRE: RESPONDING TO THE
                           INCREASING WILDFIRE THREAT

    =======================================================================

                                    HEARING

                                  BEFORE THE

                                  COMMITTEE ON
                   HOMELAND SECURITY AND GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS
                              UNITED STATES SENATE

                        ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                                 SECOND SESSION

                                   __________

                                 MARCH 14, 2024

                                   __________

            Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov

                           Printed for the use of the
            Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs

    [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

                                    __________

                       U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
    55-394 PDF               WASHINGTON : 2025

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

            COMMITTEE ON HOMELAND SECURITY AND GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS

                       GARY C. PETERS, Michigan, Chairman
    THOMAS R. CARPER, Delaware           RAND PAUL, Kentucky
    MAGGIE HASSAN, New Hampshire         RON JOHNSON, Wisconsin
    KYRSTEN SINEMA, Arizona              JAMES LANKFORD, Oklahoma
    JACKY ROSEN, Nevada                  MITT ROMNEY, Utah
    JON OSSOFF, Georgia                  RICK SCOTT, Florida
    RICHARD BLUMENTHAL, Connecticut      JOSH HAWLEY, Missouri
    LAPHONZA BUTLER, California          ROGER MARSHALL, Kansas

                       David M. Weinberg, Staff Director
             Christopher J. Mulkins, Director of Homeland Security
               Naveed Jazayeri, Senior Professional Staff Member
                    Brittany M. Hallack, Research Assistant
               William E. Henderson III, Minority Staff Director
                  Christina N. Salazar, Minority Chief Counsel
              Megan M. Krynen, Minority Professional Staff Member
                         Laura W. Kilbride, Chief Clerk
                       Ashley A. Gonzalez, Hearing Clerk

                                C O N T E N T S

                                     ------
    Opening statements:
                                                                       Page
        Senator Peters...............................................     1
        Senator Romney...............................................     3
        Senator Lankford.............................................     4
        Senator Rosen................................................     7
        Senator Carper...............................................    10
        Senator Sinema...............................................    12
        Senator Johnson..............................................    20
    Prepared statements:
        Senator Peters...............................................    37
        Senator Rosen................................................    39

                                   WITNESSES
                            THURSDAY, MARCH 14, 2024

    Lori Moore-Merrell, DRPH, Administrator, U.S. Fire
      Administration, Federal Emergency Management Agency, U.S.
      Department of Homeland Security................................     6
    David Fogerson, Chief, Division of Emergency Management and
      Office of Homeland Security, Department of Public Safety, State
      of Nevada......................................................     8
    Jamie Barnes, Director, Forestry, Fire and State Lands Department
      of Natural Resources, State of Utah............................    11
    Lucinda Andreani, Deputy County Manager and Flood Control
      District Administrator, Coconino County, State of Arizona......    13
    Christopher P. Currie, Director, Homeland Security and Justice,
      U.S. Government Accountability Office..........................    15

                         Alphabetical List of Witnesses

    Andreani, Lucinda:
        Testimony....................................................    13
        Prepared statement...........................................    59
    Barnes, Jamie:
        Testimony....................................................    11
        Prepared statement...........................................    55
    Currie, Christopher P.:
        Testimony....................................................    15
        Prepared statement...........................................    71
    Fogerson, David:
        Testimony....................................................     8
        Prepared statement...........................................    45
    Moore-Merrell, Lori:
        Testimony....................................................     6
        Prepared statement...........................................    40

                                    APPENDIX

    Statements submitted for the Record:
        Richard T. Bissen, Jr., Mayor, County of Maui................    89
        Council for Native Hawaiian Advancement......................    97
        David A. Sampson, President & CEO of the American Property
          Casualty Insurance Association, and Member of the Wildland
          Fire Mitigation and Management Commission..................   100
    Responses to post-hearing questions for the Record:
        Ms. Moore-Merrell............................................   108
        Mr. Fogerson.................................................   114

          NATION ON FIRE: RESPONDING TO THE INCREASING WILDFIRE THREAT

                                  ----------

                            THURSDAY, MARCH 14, 2024

                                         U.S. Senate,
                               Committee on Homeland Security
                                      and Governmental Affairs,
                                                        Washington, DC.
        The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10 a.m., in room
    SD-342, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Gary Peters, Chair
    of the Committee, presiding.
        Present: Senators Peters [presiding], Carper, Hassan,
    Sinema, Rosen, Blumenthal, Ossoff, Butler, Johnson, Lankford,
    Romney, Hawley, and Marshall.

                 OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR PETERS\1\

        Chairman Peters. The Committee will come to order.
    Wildfires are an increasing threat to our country. They have
    gotten bigger, they have burned more land, and put more
    communities in danger.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
        \1\ The prepared statement of Senator Peters appears in the
    Appendix on page 37.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
        Last year alone, wildfires affected Americans from Hawaii
    to the Great Smoky Mountains, and this year, they are likely to
    get worse. As we sit here today, communities in Texas just
    recently finished fighting the largest wildfire in the history
    of that State. It burned almost 1.4 million acres of land,
    taking lives, damaging houses, devastating agriculture,
    displacing families, and leaving property across the northern
    edge of the State in ruin.
        Last August, the fire in Maui was absolutely catastrophic
    and even more deadly. It took the lives of over 100 people, and
    shattered countless communities. It was the deadliest wildfire
    in our country in over a century. The Council of Native
    Hawaiian Advancement (CNHA)\2\ and the Mayor of Maui County\3\
    have submitted written testimony regarding the ongoing recovery
    efforts in Maui, and I move to offer them into the hearing
    record without objection.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
        \2\ Testimony submitted by the Council of Native Hawaiian
    Advancement appears in the Appendix on page 97.
        \3\ Testimony submitted by the Mayor of Maui County appears in the
    Appendix on page 89.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
        These are just a few of the examples of a new crisis, one
    that is putting even more Americans at risk. The effects of
    these fires are not only physical danger and property damage,
    they also bring a host of health risks to our communities even
    in locations hundreds of miles from the fire.
        Last year, large swaths of the eastern United States were
    impacted by wildfire smoke from Canada, causing unhealthy air
    quality from Detroit, to Washington, DC, to Boston. Inhaling
    such smoke causes lung disease, heart problems, as well as
    cancer. As wildfires grow more common in urban communities,
    they can burn dangerous synthetic materials. Even after the
    fire is over, the threat remains.
        After effects, like floods, mudslides, and barren land can
    threaten public safety for years. But it does not stop there.
    Wildfires are also unbelievably expensive. They amount to
    billions of dollars in response and recovery costs, as well as
    economic losses every single year.
        Our State and local governments have to spend already
    limited resources onto these disasters, often much more than
    they can afford. Businesses lose money, properties lose value,
    infrastructure gets damaged, and industries are changed for
    good.
        This is not just a land management issue anymore. It is
    also an emerging crisis of public health, emergency management,
    and economic security. That's partly due to development. We are
    building more in the ``wild land urban interface'', a term for
    the transitional zone between unoccupied land and settled
    property, and that brings us closer to wildfires that in the
    past could have been contained within uninhabited land.
        This problem is also exacerbated by climate change. We have
    higher temperatures, more droughts, and a host of other
    ecological factors that make wildfires more dangerous. They are
    one of the gravest consequences of global climate change. In
    short, this is a serious problem. Climate change is making it
    worse, and we have to improve our response, our recovery, and
    mitigation efforts.
        We have a few key tools for that work. The Federal
    Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) is the government agency
    tasked with disaster relief and wildfires affecting communities
    falls under their purview. FEMA handles declarations and gives
    out key resources to communities affected by wildfires, but the
    increasing danger posed by wildfires has revealed gaps in this
    agency's infrastructure.
        For instance, many of its programs were designed for other
    hazards like floods and hurricanes, and do not adequately meet
    the needs of wildfires. I look forward to hearing from our
    panel of witnesses on what FEMA needs to do in order to
    properly mitigate this threat. Our witnesses will also provide
    valuable insight on the Wildland Fire Mitigation and Management
    Commission.
        The Commission, which I want to thank Senator Romney for
    championing, was marked up in this Committee and signed into
    law as part of the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law (BIL). It
    offered a sweeping review of our government's response to
    wildfires and what we need to improve. It was co-chaired by
    FEMA, the Department of Agriculture (USDA), and the Department
    of Interior (DOI), and released nearly 150 recommendations this
    past September.
        The report outline ways we can expand our workforce to
    fight fires, modernize the tools we use, invest in resilient
    infrastructure, and adopt a proactive approach so that our
    communities can be better prepared to face this problem in the
    future.
        Our Committee has taken some key steps related to the
    report's recommendation. Last year, the Senate passed my
    bipartisan Disaster Assistance Simplification Act, which makes
    it easier for people to get help they need after wildfires, as
    well as other serious natural disasters.
        This Congress, the Senate, passed the Fire Grants and
    Safety Act, which will help expand our workforce and support
    firefighters all across America. This Committee has also passed
    the Wildland Firefighter Paycheck Protection Act, led by
    Senator Sinema to establish a permanent updated pay scale for
    Federal firefighters. We will continue working to advance this
    bipartisan legislation through Congress to prevent a pay cliff
    for wildland firefighters at the end of this fiscal year (FY).
        But there is still so much more we need to do. Wildfires
    have become a crisis for our country, and one that calls for
    bold and comprehensive solutions. This threat is not just going
    to go away, and this Committee must play a central role in our
    Federal Government's response. Today's discussion with our
    expert witnesses represents a meaningful step toward that goal.
        I would now like to invite Senator Romney to share some
    opening remarks.

                  OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR ROMNEY

        Senator Romney. Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you for
    holding this hearing.
        This is a national priority. It is tragic that we continue
    to have wildfires of the nature we have. Some have become
    conflagrations. There has been massive loss of life, and this
    is a problem from Hawaii, to Canada, to the Southern Border
    across the country. More and more States are being affected by
    wildfires. It is not just a few States in the American West, as
    we sometimes think is the case. It is a national concern.
        I particularly want to thank Utah's Director of Forestry,
    Jamie Barnes, for being here and being willing to share her
    expertise with this Committee. We have some 800 to 1,000
    wildfires per year just in Utah. When you think about the
    impact of these fires, I go back to 2018. We had one called the
    Dollar Ridge Fire. What was most unusual about that is that it
    dramatically impacted the watershed, going into rivers, and
    streams, and lakes, killed wildlife, fish, threatened the
    drinking supply of people in Panguitch, Utah.
        The challenge is not just that we are putting CO2 and smoke
    in the air, and threatening structures and life, but we are
    also affecting our drinking water and the life of wildlife.
        In 2021, the Parley Canyon fire forced the evacuation of
    8,000 residents along the Wasatch Front for an extended period
    of time. I went and met with people there, and they were angry
    asking why couldn't we do a better job preventing these things
    from happening, and I did not have a lot of answers. We were
    actually even considering closing down Interstate 80 as a
    result of that fire.
        Back in 2021, Senator Mark Kelly of Arizona and I
    introduced the Wildland Fire Mitigation and Management
    Commission Act. It put together, as you know, some 50
    individuals, Federal, State, local, private sector, public
    sector, FEMA. This group came together. They have put together
    a report as of September of last year with some 148 different
    recommendations.
        Senator Kelly and I are working on legislation to take
    these recommendations and turn them into law. That is one of
    the reasons we wanted to have this hearing today, to get your
    perspectives on what things we might want to turn into law.
        I appreciate very much the work that you are doing. It is a
    national priority. I recognize that we cannot keep on doing the
    way we have in the past. We are going to have to have some
    changes. It is going to require additional funding, we may need
    additional fixed wing aircraft, different monitoring systems,
    different remediation, different forestry management, different
    prescribed burns processes. There are a lot of things that we
    are going to have to do differently than we have in the past.
        I look forward to the testimony today, particularly from
    Director Barnes, and the rest of you, and appreciate the
    willingness of Members of our Committee to come together to
    focus on this important issue.
        Chairman Peters. Thank you, Senator Romney. I would like
    now to invite Senator Lankford to share some opening remarks.

                 OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR LANKFORD

        Senator Lankford: Mr. Chair, thank you. Sometimes when
    people think about wildfires, they do not think about Oklahoma.
    They think about some of the areas of tall timber. I do want to
    remind folks, we do have tall timber in Oklahoma as well, on
    the eastern side of our State, and we have great areas of
    prairie grass on the west.
        February the 26th, just a few weeks ago wildfires broke out
    in the State of Oklahoma. According to our forestry services,
    we had 152,000 acres that were burned just on February 26th. In
    the days that are following that, we had a high fire danger day
    even yesterday.
        As that is continuing to be able to come, just in that fire
    on February 26th, and the time after that, we had 19 homes
    destroyed. We had four injuries that were there, a lot of
    livestock, and a lot of fence line through that area. Our
    neighbors in Texas, where one of the fires actually started and
    moved into Oklahoma, lost over 1,000,000 acres just at the end
    of February and early in March.
        This is wildfire season in Oklahoma. It is when we see a
    lot of the fires actually take off quickly with the dry
    vegetation and high winds coming through. That is why Senator
    Barrasso and Senator Manchin are holding hearings on wildfires
    as well this week as we continue to be able to talk through the
    other issues that we can to try to resolve as many things as we
    can.
        We do have to address areas of mitigation. That is grazing,
    that is prescribed burns, that is timber harvesting, that is
    removal of hazardous fuels, and the hazardous fuels for us in
    Oklahoma is actually the red cedar which actually just explodes
    when fire gets near them as well. It is a big issue for us. It
    is an invasive tree. It takes off quickly, and if they are not
    actually mitigated when a wildfire breaks out, it becomes a
    major issue for us to be able to spread the fire and to be able
    to accelerate it.
        You may not know this, but Oklahoma occasionally has severe
    weather. I know that may be a shock to everybody. Occasionally,
    when we have severe weather, that lightning will also break out
    a fire, and that has become a long-term issue for us as well. A
    lot of our critical infrastructure continues to be able to deal
    with how they can manage those issues.
        We also have fires that break out, like it happens, at
    times with our electrical power grid. That is an issue that we
    still need to be able to resolve, and then will be, hopefully,
    a part of our conversation today; on grid wildfires as well as
    occasionally a lightning strike that hits an oil battery or
    whatever it may be, or just to be able to catch some of the
    grass on fire, and it takes off from there.
        Among our witnesses today, they are coming from States with
    a lot of Federal land. Federal bureaucracy, I would say, should
    not prevent us from quickly responding to wildfires. We do have
    some additional contracting issues as far as the date of
    contract. For instance, in Oklahoma, our date of contracting
    for wildfire assistance begins on March the first. Did I
    mention that our wildfires came in on the end of February this
    year?
        Just getting Federal assistance to be able to come in
    because for our wildfires happened to come in before the
    contracting dates, that created additional problems for us. We
    do have some red tape we have to be able to work through. When
    disaster strikes, we should be able to respond to those.
        One of the issues that Senator Daines, Representative Issa,
    and I are working on to remove some of the red tape is on the
    hiring issues. We have a bill called Direct Hire to Fight Fires
    Act that we are working to be able to make sure that we can
    actually get to some of those firefighters faster, to the task
    on it, to be able to resolve some of the hiring issues so we
    are not having to have those delays just in the hiring to be
    able to get folks on the ground.
        So, appreciate the hearing. This is a big issue for us
    nationally. It is a tremendous cost to the Federal taxpayer,
    but it is a bigger cost to those that are actually impacted by
    the fire on the ground.
        Chairman Peters. Thank you, Senator Lankford. It is the
    practice of the Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs
    Committee (HSGAC) to swear in witness. If each of you would
    please stand and raise your right hands. Do you swear that the
    testimony that you will give before this Committee will be the
    truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you,
    God?
        Ms. Moore-Merrell. I do.
        Mr. Fogerson. I do.
        Ms. Barnes. I do.
        Ms. Andreani. I do.
        Mr. Currie. I do.
        Chairman Peters. You may be seated.
        Our first witness is Lori Moore-Merrell. She is the U.S.
    Fire Administrator (USFA) for FEMA. She oversees efforts to
    support and strengthen fire and emergency medical services to
    prepare for, prevent, mitigate, and respond to all hazards.
        Prior to that role Dr. Moore-Merrell has served at the helm
    of the International Public Safety Data Institute and worked as
    a senior executive in the International Association of
    Firefighters (IAFF).
        Since beginning her career as a paramedic for the city of
    Memphis Fire Department 37 years ago, she has become a renowned
    expert on public safety and fire service.
        Dr. Merrell, you are now recognized for your opening
    remarks.

     TESTIMONY OF LORI MOORE-MERRELL,\1\ ADMINISTRATOR, U.S. FIRE
       ADMINISTRATION, FEDERAL EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT AGENCY, U.S.
                    DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY

        Dr. Moore-Merrell. Thank you, Senator Peters, and recommend
    Paul, Senator Romney, and the Members of the Committee.
    Certainly, thank you for your well-informed opening statements.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
        \1\ The prepared statement of Ms. Moore-Merrell appears in the
    Appendix on page 40.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
        I am Lori Moore-Merrell, the U.S. Fire Administrator within
    the Federal Emergency Management Agency. Thank you for the
    opportunity to testify today, and to discuss the continuous and
    evolving wildfire threat.
        Before we can effectively examine the impact on wildfire on
    the Nation, we must first clarify terminology however.
    Historically, there has been a propensity for Federal
    decisionmaking to refer to wildland fire in laws intended to
    reduce the impact on communities.
        To clarify, wildland is a location made up of vegetation,
    while wildland urban interface (WUI) and wildland intermixed
    communities are referred to as the interface. These are areas
    where human development meets inner or intermingles with
    underdeveloped wildland vegetative fuels that are both fire
    dependent and fire prone.
        Ultimately, this confusion in terminology has led to
    limited resources to address the threat of wildfire before it
    occurs in the built environment.
        Throughout much of the United States and globally,
    wildfires are growing in intensity, size, and destructiveness,
    as you have noted. The expansion of our communities into new
    locations also contributes to the risk we face. It is
    imperative that the States and local officials adopt,
    implement, and enforce national wildland urban interface
    building codes.
        In response to these challenges, the Department of Homeland
    Security (DHS), FEMA, and the U.S. Fire Administration, the
    U.S. Department of Agriculture, Forest Service, the Department
    of Interior, were directed by Congress, as you know, through
    the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law to lead the Wildland Fire
    Mitigation and Management Commission.
        The Wildland Fire Mitigation and Management Commission was
    charged with recommending improvements on how Federal agencies
    manage wildfire across the landscapes. The Commission's final
    report of 148 recommendations covering several themes,
    including putting significantly more focus on resources toward
    proactive pre-fire and post-fire planning to break the current
    cycle of increasingly severe wildfire risk, damages, and
    losses.
        Another theme of the report was modernizing tools to inform
    in decisionmaking, including several measures that would better
    coordinate, integrate, and strategically align fire-related
    science data and technology. A major commission recommendation
    for the United States Fire Administration is that we provide
    expanded community-based wildfire training, and engagement of
    the nation's non-Federal fire service to promote fire-adapted
    communities, to build community resilience, and improve
    coordination with wildfire management in the interface.
        These recommendations and actions would have been
    particularly valuable to address the Lahaina Maui fire before
    the fire occurred. I accompanied the FEMA Administrator to
    Laina Maui 48 hours after the fire. My overall focus on the
    ground was to get a firsthand look at the indications of how
    the fire moved, likely wind impact, the fuel load that enabled
    rapid and extensive fire spread, indications of human behavior
    during evacuation, and overall firefighter wellbeing.
        USFA's focus is now on the post-fire mitigation
    opportunities through the FEMA mitigation assessment team, and
    increasing resilience during the build back in Lahaina. To
    assist with building resilience, USFA in coordination with the
    Department of Homeland Security Science and Technology (S&T) is
    deploying several wildfire sensors on Maui, along with the
    other fire-prone islands in the State.
        Sensory technology as a critical part of the effective
    wildfire response, providing real time, accurate information on
    these fires as early as possible post ignition so that
    resources can be quickly deployed to engage in suppression.
    However, we need continual investments and updates on existing
    wildfire models, as well as additional training for
    firefighters to respond to these events.
        The increasing incidents of wildfire that affect
    communities means that more municipal fire departments are
    responsible for firefighting in the wildland and in the
    interface. The reality is that local firefighters must add
    interface and suburban conflagration, wildfire strategies and
    tactics to their operational skillset.
        Last, fire departments cannot safely and effectively
    respond to the wildland or the interface fires without proper
    protective equipment. The USFA, along with the Federal, State,
    and local partners, are actively participating in preparedness,
    including community risk reduction, where we are engaging with
    individuals and their communities through fire stop tours
    across the Nation.
        It is a goal to prepare all local firefighters, structural
    firefighters, and communities for increase in wildfires in the
    interface and the rural and suburban communities. We anticipate
    challenges ahead. FEMA and the USFA looks forward to working
    with the members of this community and this committee to build
    more resilient nation.
        I want to thank you again for the opportunity to testify,
    and I look forward to your questions.
        Chairman Peters. Thank you.
        I would like to now recognize Senator Rosen to introduce
    our second witness.

                 OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR ROSEN\1\

        Senator Rosen: Thank you, Chair Peters, and it is my
    distinct honor and pleasure to introduce Nevada's own David
    Fogerson, the Chief of the Nevada Division of Emergency
    Management and Office of Homeland Security. Welcome, Chief.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
        \1\ The prepared statement of Senator Rosen appears in the Appendix
    on page 39.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
        Chief Fogerson has over 30 years of experience in public
    safety, serving in a number of different roles, including as a
    wildland firefighter himself and as deputy fire chief and
    emergency manager for Nevada.
        In our State of Nevada, the unique landscape, the changing
    climate, the amount of land owned by the Federal Government,
    over 80 percent, by the way, make wildfire mitigation and
    recovery all the more challenging. That is why we need strong
    leaders like Chief Fogerson, who create collaborative
    partnerships and encourage innovation in our approach to
    addressing wildfires.
        We are so lucky to have someone with as much experience and
    insight as Chief Fogerson leading Nevada's response to
    devastating wildfires, and working with leaders across the
    country to address the increasing challenges that wildfires are
    now presenting. Nevada needs to be. We must be at the table in
    these important conversations.
        It is why I am pleased that Chief Fogerson represented our
    State on the Wildland Fire Mitigation Management Commission
    which was charged with making these important recommendations
    to Congress on wildfire strategies and response, and I think
    you will not find a State in the Nation anymore that is immune
    from wildfires.
        I am so glad to have you here today testifying before this
    Committee. We thank you for their service to our State, and I
    think the Chair will recognize you for your opening remarks.
        Chairman Peters. Mr. Fogerson, you are now recognized for
    your opening comments.

     TESTIMONY OF DAVID W. FOGERSON,\1\ CHIEF, NEVADA DIVISION OF
    EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT AND OFFICE OF HOMELAND SECURITY DEPARTMENT
                       OF PUBLIC SAFETY OF NEVADA

        Mr. Fogerson. Chair Peters, Ranking Member Paul, Nevada
    Senator, Rosen, and distinguished Members of this Committee, it
    is my esteemed pleasure to speak with you about our nation to
    wildfire threat.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
        \1\ The prepared statement of Mr. Fogerson appears in the Appendix
    on page 45.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
        This is my 30th Nevada wildfire season. I was a deputy fire
    chief responsible for negotiating a cooperative fire protection
    agreement with both the Forest Service and the Bureau of Land
    Management (BLM) based upon the Reciprocal Fire Protection Act
    of 1954. As with all western States' emergency managers,
    wildfire continues to be my life's work.
        I am before you today as a member of the Wildfire
    Commission. I believe the Commission was empowered and
    envisioned to rethink the path on wildfire. Fifty diverse
    commissioners agreed upon 148 recommendations with 100 percent
    consensus. That should add weight to our story.
        We want to abide down our risks. This occurs when we treat
    wildfire as we do a hurricane, with the whole community
    approach. This occurs when we support partnerships to ensure
    everyone has a seat at the table. This occurs when we support
    workforce development, and realize we no longer have a fire
    season, but rather a fire year.
        H.R. 7070 speaks to treating wildfire as we do hurricanes,
    and I urge its support. We do not care who owns the hurricane,
    we react as a collective community to support survivor outcomes
    using an enterprise-wide approach. During projected landfall,
    Federal agencies are collaborative to move resources, support
    State and local responses. Funds are provided to preposition
    resources. Emergency operation centers are open with a mindset
    to protect the whole community. Partners come together.
        Our nation's response to wildfire is quite different. A Red
    Flag Warning did not trigger local, State, Federal, and tribal
    nation coordination to prepare. When we hear the Santa Ana is
    in Southern California or the Washoe Zephyr is in Northern
    Nevada, or there's no openings in emergency operation centers,
    no community-wide approach, and no collective movement of
    resources as wildfire is still viewed as a responsibility of
    whichever agency manages the land segregated by property lines
    and jurisdictions.
        We need an outcome-based view, one of consequence
    management as we do with hurricanes. The evacuation
    coordination effort currently being led by the Fire
    Administration is of paramount importance. In fact, Nevada,
    California is holding a bi-State workshop on this issue in two
    weeks.
        Our responsibility includes accounting for the cascading
    hazards wildfire brings. We know floods follow fire. Tying
    flood to the fire is essential for resource-poor communities to
    protect the residents and visitors. Collaboration is key given
    the role that local governments play in wildfire response. In
    Nevada, local governments, structural firefighters are our
    primary wildfire responders. Federal grants such as Fire
    Management Assistance Grant (FMAG), Emergency Management
    Performance Grant (EMPG), Assistance to Firefighters Grants
    (AFG), and Staffing For Adequate Fire and Emergency Response
    (SAFER), help local governments fight the fire and not their
    checkbook.
        Administrator Chriswell is working to increase FEMA's
    nimbleness. No one wants fraud, waste, and abuse. We want
    nimbleness to create the best outcomes in the shortest amount
    of time. There is a fine balancing act between those two needs
    a balance point we must continually seek.
        FEMA and the U.S. Fire Administration needs our support to
    ensure they are positioned to support the whole community. They
    must be sufficiently resourced and funded for wildfire
    planning, preparation, response, recovery, and mitigation. Our
    Federal land management agency partners spend their entire
    careers dedicated to the wildfire. These professionals need
    adequate salary, benefit, and respect, and the workforce must
    be grown to a year-round one, one which can provide for
    mitigation activities outside of fighting fire.
        The idea of a fire season lasting from May to October is no
    longer a reality in Nevada. Nevada sees a year-round fire
    season with our largest loss of civilian life and property
    during winter wildfires when our Federal partners are not
    staffed to support response. I've managed many winter wildfires
    asking for additional engines, hand crews, and air support,
    only be reminded it is out of season, and local government is
    depth of the resources available.
        Local governments are critical component of wildfire
    response, year-round and around the clock. The same firefighter
    that responds to your difficulty breathing call to your
    structure fire, to your motor vehicle collision with
    extrication needs, is your wildfire responder year-round. We
    must allow for more rapid reimbursement to make the local
    government whole for their efforts. This will allow them to
    grow their capabilities and remain engaged. Reciprocal Fire Act
    of 1954 remains an impediment to the local government partners.
        I thank you for this opportunity to testify today. It is an
    honor and highlight of my career. My passion is to ensure that
    we are learning from experience and improving our systems; for
    to those who much is given, much is expected. Thank you.
        Chairman Peters. Thank you, Mr. Fogerson. Before we
    introduce our next witness, I recognize Senator Carper for one
    minute for a brief remark.

                  OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR CARPER

        Senator Carper: Thanks, Mr. Chair. Welcome. I represent the
    State of Delaware. We do not have a lot of wildfires. We have a
    lot of firefighters, and we revere them in the good work that
    they that they do. We have challenges that emanate from the
    ocean. We have sea level rise and wiping out parts of our
    beaches and our farmland along the coast. It is not just
    Delaware, it is all up and down the East Coast, the West Coast
    as well.
        I would like to say in my State, it is not enough just to
    address this the symptoms of sea level rise and the devastation
    that comes around. We have to address root causes. We all know
    what the root cause is; it is climate change. There is too much
    carbon in the air.
        The good news is we are doing a lot as a country, I think,
    leading the world in addressing that, and we need to do more of
    that. We will not only make sure we have great beaches in
    places like Delaware, but also make sure that the we will have
    fewer wildfires to fight across the country.
        Thank you all for being here, and welcome. Thank you.
    Thanks, Mr. Chair.
        Chairman Peters. Thank you, Senator Carper. I need to step
    away to an Armed Services Committee to ask some questions. I
    will be passing the gavel over to Senator Romney. Senator
    Romney will be chairing this hearing while I step away. Senator
    Romney.
        Senator Romney. Yes, I will be a good boy. I will not do
    anything to embarrass you, Mr. Chair, I promise. Although it is
    mostly Republicans here, so we might.
        Chairman Peters. I have a tremendous amount of trust in
    you, my friend.
        Senator Romney [presiding.] All right. Thank you. We are
    going to hear from Director Barnes. Jamie Barnes is currently
    serving as the Utah State Forester and Director of Utah's
    Division of Forestry, Fire and State Lands. Prior to this, she
    was responsible for the Sovereign Lands Program in our State.
        She, by the way, got her master's degree at University of
    Idaho. She obviously went astray from our Northern Border, but
    her undergraduate is from Weber State University. Director
    Barnes, we are happy to have you here and we turn to you for
    your testimony.

      TESTIMONY OF JAMIE BARNES,\1\ DIRECTOR, FORESTRY, FIRE AND
       STATE LANDS DEPARTMENT OF NATURAL RESOURCES STATE OF UTAH

        Ms. Barnes. Thank you, Senator Romney. Good morning, and
    thank you Chair Peters, and Members of the Committee. I am
    pleased to be here with you today to take the opportunity to
    appear before you and to discuss wildfire.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
        \1\ The prepared statement of Ms. Barnes appears in the Appendix on
    page 55.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
        We are no stranger to the development occurring in our
    wildland urban interface communities. With urban growth comes
    an increased risk of devastating wildfire. Many of these areas
    contain an overgrowth of fuels. We are seeing fires burn hotter
    and more severely than ever. Many States across the Western
    U.S. now refer to fire season as fire year. Increased fire
    occurrence and severity also lead to more days of wildfire
    smoke in our communities.
        The increased severity and intensity of fires outside the
    typical fire season is demonstrated by the recent destructive
    wildfires experienced in places like Colorado, Maui, and most
    recently, Texas. The unexpected is no longer unexpected. It is
    the new normal.
        In addition to States being faced with the increasing
    suppression costs or of altered fire regimens, private
    landowners are now being pressured to reduce the amount of
    fuels on their landscape. While this may reduce the individual
    risk of wildfires, communities have little control of wildfires
    beyond their property boundary.
        We do have tools in the toolbox that we can use to help
    mitigate hazardous fuels and actively manage our lands as
    prescribed fire is one of them. However, it becomes complex,
    and when dealing with air quality standards, permitting
    challenges, and with mechanical treatments and cross boundary
    landscapes.
        The majority of the focus around air quality is out of
    proportion to the frequency and porosity of wildfires.
    Wildfires can negate any improvement of air quality in a single
    incident. Utah spends the majority of its summer months
    inundated with smoke from wildfires of other States. With this
    in mind, we must remember the true cost of wildfire.
        Each year, wildfire suppression dollars are reported and
    used widely to bring into context the severity of wildfire
    season. In reality, suppression is only a fraction of the cost.
    When assessing the full cost of wildfire, we must consider the
    long-term and complex cost from loss of life, safety,
    infrastructure, and ecosystem services.
        Utah's collaborative relationships lead to our successes.
    We believe in strong interagency collaboration. Shared
    stewardship and Fire Sense are examples of how the Utah way
    achieves goals. The shared stewardship approach brings partners
    together and stakeholders together to focus on doing the right
    work in the right place at the right scale.
        Since 2019, the shared stewardship program in Utah has
    invested $30 million in active forest management treating over
    80,000 acres. This initiative has improved Utah's watersheds
    through a collaborative approach. Fire Sense, a State-sponsored
    campaign with inter-agency collaboration to educate Utah
    citizens and visitors is a wildfire prevention campaign.
        Utahans have successfully reduced human caused wildfires by
    over 60 percent in the last three years. That is absolutely
    amazing. Wildfire Mitigation and Management Commission Act
    released a report with key findings that are important to Utah
    with regard to mitigating managing and recovering from
    wildfires.
        In the last decade, Utah has seen large wildfires and
    escape-prescribed burn projects impact our watersheds. The
    report identified ways to make planning more effective and
    efficient. This is one approach that Utah has been very
    proactive in with shared stewardship, but with limited funding.
        There are still limitations to achieving large landscape
    scale projects due to Nevada Emergency Preparedness Association
    (NEPA's) litigation challenges, the need for permitting reform,
    and the lack of mechanisms for forest management. Also, limited
    funding is available for post-wildfire restoration at the State
    level. Providing additional funding would help the recovery
    from a significant wildfire event.
        Forestry, Fire and State Lands evaluates the State of Utah
    wildfire risk by considering resources and values at risk in an
    area to determine fire risk. These same metrics should be used
    to prioritize success of mitigation work and not just the
    number of acres treated. Current Federal performance metrics
    are used solely on metrics around acres treated.
        Last, prioritizing investment in building a workforce is
    important throughout the Nation. Firefighter pay has been at
    the center of discussions for years now. Utah recently passed
    legislation addressing the pay of State wildland firefighters.
    Having an equally paid inter-agency workforce should be a
    priority.
        We need to learn to live with fire being the new normal. We
    need to fight fire with fire, putting more fire on the
    landscape through prescribed burning with lower intensity
    burning and less impact to air quality. Increasing funding and
    capacity, along with finding ways to strengthen relationships
    is the key to successful forest management and reducing the
    number of wildfires throughout the Nation. Thank you for your
    time.
        Senator Romney. Thank you, Director Barnes.
        The chair recognizes Senator Sinema to introduce the fourth
    witness.

                  OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR SINEMA

        Senator Sinema. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I am pleased to be
    able to introduce my friend and member of the Wildland Fire
    Mitigation and Management Commission, Lucinda Andreani.
        Lucinda serves as the Deputy County Manager and Flood
    Control District Administrator for Coconino County in Arizona,
    where we have worked together on many critical projects for the
    people of Northern Arizona, from resiliency planning to
    delivering key post-fire and post-flood resources to seeing
    firsthand the people in neighborhoods in Flagstaff devastated
    by post-fire flooding.
        Lucinda has been a champion for rethinking the ways we plan
    for and respond to wildfires in our country, and her
    appointment to this important commission is a testament to her
    dedication to Northern Arizona. I cannot thank Lucinda enough
    for exemplary work co-chairing the Post-wildfire Working Group
    with another witness we have at today's hearing, Mr. Fogerson.
        I look forward to Lucinda's testimony and continuing our
    work to deliver results for all Arizonans who are affected by
    the growing threat of wildfires. Thank you. Thanks, Lucinda.

      TESTIMONY OF LUCINDA ANDREANI,\1\ DEPUTY COUNTY MANAGER AND
    FLOOD CONTROL DISTRICT ADMINISTRATOR, COCONINO COUNTY, STATE OF
                                ARIZONA

        Ms. Andreani. Senator Romney, Senator Sinema, and
    distinguished Members of the Committee. I am honored to
    testify.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
        \1\ The prepared statement of Ms. Andreani appears in the Appendix
    on page 59.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
        From the shores of Hawaii to the Panhandle of Texas,
    wildfire ravages tens of millions of acres and thousands of
    communities. Even once the wildfires are extinguished,
    secondary impacts such as loss of housing and post-wildfire
    flooding threaten the health and safety of affected communities
    for years.
        I am Lucinda Andreani, and I serve as Coconino County
    Arizona's Deputy County Manager and Flood Control District
    Administrator. I am responsible for mitigating the impacts of
    wildfires and post-wildfire flooding, and my duties include
    leading the district's forest restoration initiative.
        I can tell you firsthand, the scale of these crises rapidly
    overwhelms the capacity of local governments. While there are
    opportunities for Federal support, must much be done to improve
    the accessibility, immediacy, and effectiveness of the Federal
    response to the wildfire crisis.
        I also was privileged to represent counties across the
    country as I served on the congressionally established Wildland
    Fire Mitigation and Management Commission. It is counties that
    generally bear the brunt of wildfire disasters. I want to thank
    Senator Sinema for her continuing leadership with and
    significant contributions to improving wildfire prevention
    response and recovery. Her support of the county's efforts have
    been steadfast and are deeply appreciated by the county and our
    residents, and me personally as well.
        Since 2010, Coconino County has endured nine major
    wildfires, issued over 25,000 evacuation orders, lost over 130
    buildings, including 63 homes, and wildfires have released 4.1
    million metric tons of carbon. I would like to focus on some
    key issues relative to how FEMA can improve wildfire recovery
    processes.
        Commission recommendation 64 advocates for amending the
    Stafford Act to reflect the cascading repetitive nature of
    post-wildfire flooding. Although cumulative impacts usually
    exceed the minimum for a declaration, the disaster events are
    separated by 72-hour windows. As a result, Coconino County has
    lost access to millions of dollars in FEMA reimbursements and
    has virtually no access to the Public Assistance Program.
        Commission recommendation 79 calls for protecting taxpayer
    investments by ensuring that FEMA funds can be applied to
    infrastructure improvements, not just in-kind replacements. In
    Coconino County, we have seen wildfire impacted watersheds
    discharge up to 26 times more flood water than they did in pre-
    wildfire conditions. Congressional action is needed to allow
    FEMA to reimburse for upfront short-term flood mitigation and
    infrastructure preparation costs for post-wildfire flooding.
    While some areas may qualify for Natural Resources Conservation
    Service (NRCS') exigency program, FEMA should reimburse local
    governments and tribes that do not qualify for NRCS exigency,
    and to prepare infrastructure for the dramatically increased
    flood flows. Furthermore, exigency funding through FEMA may
    provide a tangential benefit to the National Flood Insurance
    Program (NFIP).
        Now, I want to quickly turn to increasing the resiliency to
    wildfires. While the BIL and IRA funding has significantly
    improved Federal investments in forest restoration, additional
    funding will be needed across the West to reduce the threat of
    catastrophic wildfires as called out in Commission
    Recommendation 126. Improving the resiliency of the built
    environment is also important as is identified in Commission
    Recommendation 6.
        I am glad to see FEMA's Building Resilient Infrastructures
    and Communities (BRIC) and Hazard Mitigation Grant Program
    (HMGP) programs are now focusing on fuels reduction within
    communities. However, streamlining FEMA's processes is greatly
    needed. Our county received a fuels reduction grant, but
    because of these slow processes, it will take over five years
    to implement. The wildfire crisis cannot be dealt with as
    business as usual.
        In Coconino County, we have become adept at navigating the
    systems and forming the partnerships to secure aid to address
    post-wildfire impacts, but this is not the case for most areas
    such as our neighboring State of New Mexico. The Commission's
    Recommendation 60 calls for major improvements in Federal
    agency coordination.
        Thank you again for the opportunity to provide testimony. A
    robust unified response from all levels of government is
    needed. Thank you.
        Senator Romney. Thank you. I appreciate that testimony. I
    am just going to note that you may wonder why it is that people
    are coming in and out from this front row here. That is because
    there are other hearings going on that we have responsibility
    to attend, and in some cases, to chair.
        I would also note that the people who are going to be doing
    drafting on legislation and implementing many of the
    recommendations from the commission, they are the ones sitting
    behind us. The workers are the ones sitting at these back rows
    here, and they are not leaving. They are here to make sure that
    we actually turn into law some of the recommendations that are
    being made by the commission.
        Our final witness is Christopher P. Currie. He serves as
    Director of Homeland Security and Justice at the Government
    Accountability Office (GAO). Mr. Currie leads the GAO's work in
    emergency management and disaster response and evaluates the
    efficiency of certain programs within DHS, including FEMA. He
    has served in the GAO since 2002. We have seen him a number of
    times before, as you can imagine.
        Mr. Currie, you are now recognized for your opening
    statement.

       TESTIMONY OF CHRISTOPHER P. CURRIE,\1\ DIRECTOR, HOMELAND
      SECURITY AND JUSTICE, U.S. GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABILITY OFFICE

        Mr. Currie. Thank you very much, Senator Romney, and other
    Members of the Committee. It is an honor to be here today to
    talk about GAO's work on wildfire preparedness, response, and
    recovery.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
        \1\ The prepared statement of Mr. Currie appears in the Appendix on
    page 71.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
        I am not going to repeat all the challenges about
    wildfires. I think everyone's covered that pretty well, and the
    150 or so Wildfire Commission recommendations show how big of a
    problem this is. But what I want to do is get into some nuts
    and bolts, and really lay out three key points based on the
    years of work we have done on this area and talking to almost
    every State in the country as well, and listening to the
    challenges they face.
        The first point is that the current Federal system has not
    really caught up to the modern threat of wildfires. It is very
    similar to, I think, what we were facing in 2005 with Hurricane
    Katrina when we were not ready for those types of disasters.
        The current system focuses on suppression and mitigation in
    rural and Federal lands, and what we have seen is that
    wildfires are now affecting very populated areas. Over the last
    10 years FEMA is becoming a lot more involved because more
    people and infrastructure are being affected.
        Traditionally, land management agencies like the Forest
    Service and Interior have had separate missions from FEMA. Now
    that this is changing, there needs to be better coordination
    between the two. As others have mentioned on the panel, there
    needs to be a much more holistic approach from start to finish
    about this.
        Some examples I love to throw out are, States have told us,
    for example, that if a wildfire starts on Federal land, you can
    not actually access certain FEMA grants and programs until that
    wildfire crosses into State or city land. That was just an
    archaic process that is tied up in how these programs have been
    applied for other types of disasters and in statute.
        Wildfire smokes is another example. As you can imagine, the
    Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) and the Forest Service
    have very different priorities as it pertains to wildfire
    smoke. Forest Service wants to use prescribed burns to mitigate
    against fires. EPA wants to stop smoke to increase air quality.
    These are just the types of things that we have to work out as
    we change the dynamic with wildfires.
        The second point is, in our work, Federal assistance has
    struggled to really help individuals and communities with
    wildfires. As was mentioned, a lot of these programs were
    developed for hurricanes, floods, and other tornadoes, and
    other types of disasters, which it is already a huge challenge
    in those areas. But it is even more difficult because wildfires
    are very unique.
        The best example I like to provide is housing after a
    disaster with survivors. You can not put a FEMA trailer on a
    burned-out house. The soil is toxic. The debris has to be
    actually removed, and the fire completely destroys the house or
    the community.
        Another unique aspect to this is that, often, the entire
    structure or community is gone. It takes much longer to
    rebuild. You have to completely redesign and, buildup to
    current code way more difficult than just rebuilding a house in
    a neighborhood after it floods or after it is hit by a
    hurricane.
        The other challenge is just shortages of disaster housing
    for survivors afterwards. We have seen this in Maui, and in
    California. These things tend to hit in places that are
    extremely expensive for housing. There is not a lot of hotels
    and other things to put disaster survivors in.
        Recently when I was in Maui, local official reminded me
    that average family home there is about $1.5 million. They do
    not have a bunch of small houses sitting around for temporary
    housing for survivors. FEMA and its Federal partners and State
    and local partners are going to have to work together to figure
    out before fires happen what we are going to do with survivors
    when they are taking years to rebuild their homes.
        The last point I would like to talk about is just Federal
    disaster assistance in general. What we hear consistently
    everywhere we go around the country is these programs are way
    too complicated. Recovery programs, they take a long time. They
    are very frustrating to navigate, and when you are trying to
    use multiple Federal programs together for recovery, it becomes
    almost close to impossible in some people's view.
        This is something that we are going to have to change. We
    have made recommendations on how we can do this. We actually
    suggested it was such a big problem that there needed to be a
    specific commission set up to handle just disaster recovery
    reform in general. Many things need to take place to change the
    way we look at wildfire preparedness, response, and recovery.
        Thank you for the chance to be here and I look forward to
    the questions.
        Senator Romney. Thank you, Director Currie, and appreciate
    the work that you do and that all of our panel members do to
    help protect our citizens and our land.
        I am going to direct my first question to Director Barnes,
    but you others are free to comment on it as well. Director
    Barnes, you noted the importance of forestry management, but
    said that there are regulatory barriers that make it difficult
    for us to effectively manage our forest. What are the barriers
    that the commission identified, or just based on your own
    experience, what things should we focus on to be able to make
    it more likely that we will be able to effectively manage the
    forest prior to a wildfire?
        Ms. Barnes. Yes. Thanks, Senator Romney. I think some of
    those barriers are definitely the NEPA process that we are
    going through. Permitting reform is something that we
    definitely need to be focusing on. Also, efficiencies across
    agencies is something that we should be focusing on and how we
    can do better planning efforts.
        Honestly, in Utah, we do things very well with our
    interagency partners. I often tell people if everybody could do
    it the Utah Way, the world would be a lot better. We have
    worked on that very hard through shared stewardship, but I
    think breaking down those barriers through NEPA, the litigation
    issues that we see that are very costly.
        Also the alignment, getting everything aligned to have a
    project happen, that's a tricky thing for things to happen. Air
    quality, if you are doing prescribed fire, permitting,
    everything lining up altogether to make things work, it becomes
    complicated and complex at times.
        Senator Romney. I am going to add that to this question.
    Just personal observation, having driven through a number of
    the forests in our State, I was astounded to see that in some
    cases, perhaps as much as two-thirds of the wood of the trees
    are dead. If they are harvested, I am told within three years
    or so, they can be used for chipboard and so forth. But the
    process of getting a permit to harvest this dead wood takes so
    long that it is no longer useful and therefore has no economic
    value, therefore we can not get loggers to come in and take out
    the dead wood.
        Does the commission make any recommendations that would
    allow us to actually use some of the deadwood, and to get
    private sector participants to come in and remove some of the
    fuel that adds to the danger of these wildfires?
        Ms. Barnes. Absolutely, and that is an important piece of
    the puzzle. In Utah, and again, through shared stewardship,
    that is one of the approaches that we have taken. We have
    invested in a position of a wood utilization specialist within
    the division, and having that person to determine what wood is
    out there, how can we utilize that wood, and how can we get
    that wood off to the forest to be an economic benefit in the
    State is something that we are very focused on, and we are
    starting to build success in that area. It is a very important
    topic.
        Senator Romney. Thank you. I would be happy to hear from
    any other member of the panel that would like to address as
    well. Yes, Director.
        Ms. Andreani. Thank you. One of the commission
    recommendations does point to the continuing and additional
    needed investment in biomass utilization technologies and
    investments in those businesses. Because much of this the wood
    in the West particularly in Ponderosa pine area, is very low or
    no value, and we need to look at other ways that we can create
    value out of those products. So continuing investments in those
    areas is going to be critical. Thank you.
        Senator Romney. Thank you. Let me turn to another topic
    that you raised, which is the workforce and the pay. Again,
    Director Barnes, you indicated a desire to provide the
    appropriate pay between State and local individuals, but there
    has been discussion about the difference in pay with Federal as
    well as State and local, and how those compare, and the
    conflict that may exist.
        Likewise in this regard, there is some discussion about
    full-time versus part-time. At the Federal level, we have part-
    time individuals. Who wants to take a job that is going to
    require you to have a salary or provide a salary for you maybe
    five or six months a year, but the rest of the year you got no
    pay. Are there solutions in this regard that we need to
    consider?
        Ms. Barnes. Yes, Senator Romney. Recently, a couple years
    ago, Utah passed H.B. 65, which increased wildfire pay. We
    increased that and brought people up to the level which we felt
    was comparable with Federal pay of Federal wildland
    firefighters.
        Right now, we feel that Utah is in a good place compared
    with our Federal partners, but there is still that compensation
    bracket with regard to benefits. Some of our time-limited
    firefighters that fight fire just throughout the season do not
    receive a benefits package. That is also an important piece of
    that puzzle; bringing people on. As we talked about, fire
    season is not just fire season anymore, it's fire year.
    Compensating is very important.
        It is also very important to not have a swift difference in
    firefighter pay from agency to agency. When a fire happens, it
    knows no boundary. We are all out on the landscape. We are
    working together. We are working to put that fire out. If you
    are a State wildland firefighter or you are a Federal wildland
    firefighter, we should all be making an amount that is similar
    so that there is no difference in what these people are doing
    out there in saving our resources.
        Senator Romney. Thank you. Any other individuals, please?
        Dr. Moore-Merrell. Please. Thank you, Senator, for that. I
    would like to, if I may, transition just a bit to our local
    firefighters. As you have noted there is a shortage of wildland
    firefighters, but certainly we are having a shortage in the
    structural side as well. It is up to the structural
    firefighters to often cover on Federal State lands as
    regardless, they are the first boots on the ground, not a
    Federal firefighter. I would like to express my gratitude,
    certainly to the Senate for already have passed the SAFER Act.
    This is critical to making sure that we can continue to recruit
    structural firefighters across the Nation because we are on the
    edge of a shortage nationwide.
        Senator Romney. Thank you. Any others have any comment? If
    not, I am going to turn to Senator Butler, and let her take
    over. Obviously, we are very much aware of the tragedies and
    the wildfires that have occurred in California in recent years.
    Appreciate your being here and turn to you for questions you
    may have.
        Senator Butler. Thank you, Senator Romney, and thank you to
    all of the witnesses and my colleagues who are here. I
    appreciate you, mark in the moment, Senator Romney, and our
    colleagues who are having to do multiple things sort of all at
    the same time because I do not think it is a reflection. Please
    do not see it as a reflection of the commitment of this body to
    this incredibly important issue. I think it is an important
    note for those who are watching to understand what is happening
    here.
        I would love to pick up on this conversation about
    firefighters because I think that they are just a critical
    asset to the entire sort of complex puzzle that you-all are
    managing as it relates to community safety, and environmental
    standards, as well as land preservation.
        As was noted, Director Merrell, the Senate Appropriations
    package last week that extended the temporary pay increase for
    Federal wildland firefighters, I think it is important for us
    to note that, at least the data that I have seen in President
    Biden's Fiscal Year 2025 budget proposal, Congress must now
    pass a permanent increase to the base pay to give our nation's
    firefighters the long-term certainty that everyone here has
    spoken to.
        Now, Director Merrell, I have heard estimates that Congress
    that had we not extended the pay increase, 30 to 50 percent of
    Federal wildland firefighters might have left their jobs. I
    would love to hear your thoughts about how a reduction of this
    scale might impact the Federal Government's ability to be the
    kind of partner that I hear is required in order to meet this
    crisis that we are dealing with.
        Dr. Moore-Merrell. Absolutely. Thank you, ma'am, for the
    question. Certainly, I will address your initial question about
    what would be the impact if we lost that many firefighters
    across the Nation, certainly, our Federal firefighters.
        It is huge because then it defaults to our local and State.
    They are already covering because there is a shortage. If we do
    not pay the Federal firefighters, the wildland firefighters,
    and pay them year-round to take on what is their responsibility
    on Federal lands to be there first, initially the burden is
    still falling on our local firefighters to get there.
        Then when they can deploy from the Federal wildland, or
    interior, or other agencies, they are arriving, but it is
    later. We have already noted the impact if we do not get to
    these ignitions quickly. We must have resources.
        The other thing is sustainability of the pay for our
    wildland Federal firefighters. Not just a bonus pay, not just a
    one-time that is not pensionable. They need pay increase. Right
    now, they can go and apply at Target or somewhere and make
    almost double what they are making an hour here. Our most
    skilled set, our smokejumpers, these, and others, and I am
    certainly going to defer to the forester here in the room to
    answer this, but this is something that we must address as our
    workforce across the board.
        Senator Butler. Say louder for the people in the back.
    Thank you so much for making that point so clear. Relying on
    the people that we have to do this work is critically
    important.
        Mr. Fogerson, I am going to turn to you for my next
    question. As was noted, and you know, is widely known and
    reported, California has been just sort of ground zero for so
    much of the accelerated experience of wildfire that, that we
    are experiencing as a country.
        In 2018, our Camp Fire killed 85 people, destroyed 19,000
    homes, burned 153,000 acres, and cost nearly $17 billion in
    damages. The immediate aftermath of the fire impacted
    individuals struggled to access adequate shelter. Those who did
    access shelter faced an outbreak of norovirus and crime.
        Nearly six years after the fire, many of the affected areas
    have yet to rebuild. Further, elderly individuals made up a
    majority of the 85 fatalities, demonstrating the
    disproportionate impacts of wildfires on vulnerable
    populations.
        Mr. Fogerson, your testimony highlights the ongoing
    struggle of Butte County, and the towns of Paradise, Magalia,
    Concow, and Butte Creek Canyon to recover and rebuild. You note
    in your testimony that it remains an important watermark for
    you in the context of the whole community recovery. Can you
    elaborate on some takeaways from the Camp Fire and what you
    would suggest that we as Congress take as action?
        Mr. Fogerson. Absolutely. Thank you for the question,
    ma'am. Those fires were the first time we really saw the huge
    impact of loss of major homes in a resource-poor community. A
    resource-poor community is a rural frontier community, much
    like we see Northern California and Nevada.
        When we look at it from the southern States, when we have a
    hurricane, we are able to go put a FEMA trailer out. We are
    able to do those things. Everyone has their mindset, that is
    how we are going to do it. But we can not actually do that on
    the West Coast, especially as my friend from the GAO said, you
    can not just go put a trailer on a burned-out section of land
    because of what happens with the dirt.
        The take homes that I have taken from it is looking at how
    are we going to house these people long-term? It is not going
    to be a 30-day we are going to have to put this person up, but
    how do we figure out how to make encampments, or something
    along those lines, to take care of these people for the longer-
    term period of time?
        I have a neighbor that lives in Gardenville, Nevada with me
    and came from the Camp Fire area. Had his house burned down,
    and was unable because of supply chain issues and Coronavirus
    Disease 2019 (COVID-19) to actually rebuild his house. Had to
    relocate to another community. How do we look at those things?
    How do we fix that so that way we have that in our pocket? That
    is where I see FEMA as being a big partner in this, and
    treating that wildfire as we do hurricanes and not as a land
    management issue that encroached upon privately owned property.
        Senator Butler. Thank you so much. I have lots of questions
    for all of you and a limited amount of time. I would love to
    just end with a comment.
        All of you have in your testimony to disaster recovery, and
    I think that is an incredibly important focus and appreciate
    you for highlighting it. One of the topics that we have not
    touched on yet is the recovery of industries that are not
    explicitly covered under the FEMA programs. In particular, I am
    concerned with the recovery of the agriculture community and
    industry.
        In California, wildfires, which have become increasingly
    worse, have an extreme impact not just on California's farmers,
    but on the food supply that drives up cost for groceries of
    everyday families. I want to urge my colleagues as we consider
    and do our work, that we work together in a bipartisan way to
    not only ensure that FEMA has the resources it needs to address
    disaster recovery, but that we are also providing funding for
    the Department of Agriculture Emergency Relief Program, so that
    we are ensuring that agricultural providers and producers can
    have robust and timely recovery, so that we could all work
    together to continue to bring down costs for work and families.
    Thank you.
        Chairman Peters [presiding.] Senator Johnson, you are
    recognized for your questions.

                  OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR JOHNSON

        Senator Johnson. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thanks for holding
    this hearing. I think it is really fascinating. I come from a
    State where we obviously have forest fires, but you know,
    generally not the extent of as you have out West. I do find
    this fascinating, and I actually appreciate, whether you are on
    board with climate change or not. I do not think I even heard
    that word used because we are talking about the practical
    things we can do, and I want to focus on that, again, not
    coming from a western State.
        Ms. Adreani, you talked about the post-fire and the
    flooding afterwards. Is it because these things are sparked by
    huge thunderstorms and that caused, or is there something else
    occurring? Is there lack of vegetation that is not absorbing
    the moisture? I mean, just describe what is happening,
    geologically that you have post-fire floods. I am fascinated by
    that.
        Ms. Andreani. Thank you, Senator. In the southwest, and
    actually, Utah, other areas of the West experience of what is
    called, a monsoon, a traditional monsoon in the summer.
    Typically, anywhere from the end of June through September.
    Then, certainly, you have seen in California, the atmospheric
    rivers, you have seen other types of rainfall events, mountain
    thunderstorms that can create post-wildfire flooding. That is
    the dynamic.
        What you see on the ground is that when a wildfire occurs,
    particularly if it is a severe wildfire with very severe
    impacts to the soil, the soil actually becomes hydrophobic.
        Senator Johnson. You can not absorb it.
        Ms. Andreani. It acts like glass. That will typically take
    place for through an initial season, maybe even longer
    depending upon the circumstances. You get this massive increase
    in flood flows.
        We have seen in an area recently that was burned up, to 26
    times, the pre-fire flood flows in those areas. You are getting
    massive removal of sediment in many of these areas. We have
    steep slopes that have burned very severely, so you are getting
    massive wasting of sediment debris that is coming from the
    wooded area. You no longer have any foliage to deflect the
    rainfall, and so you see these catastrophic events after the
    fire.
        Senator Johnson. Again, if it is coincidental the massive
    flooding is caused by the fact they had a fire beforehand, and
    oftentimes, it occurs more than 72 hours, then that is a
    problem for Federal funding.
        Ms. Andreani. Exactly. There is this window between events.
    For example, after the pipeline fire in 2022, we had 45 major
    flood events that summer. Once you have a flood event, then
    they create a 72-hour window within which you are not eligible.
        Even though the total amount is over double our current
    financial threshold for a declaration, we never met the
    declaration level. That means we are not eligible for
    reimbursement, and it means we are not eligible for public
    assistance.
        Senator Johnson. Again, I think we are all aware that the
    Federal Government creates these rules. Sometimes they are
    cross purposes, and sometimes they did not make sense. Again, I
    appreciate the testimony so that we can hopefully get that in
    better alignment.
        At the same time permitting, and the cross purposes of the
    agencies. I know Mr. Currie mentioned the fact that the EPA is
    all about reducing smoke, but one of the mitigating factors
    would be to do controlled burns.
        Mr. Fogerson, you mentioned your agencies got together and
    you came up with, I think, you said, 148 different
    recommendations that were 100 percent agreed to. Laying aside
    the financing and some of those permitting, can you talk about
    the mitigation, because I have always heard we are just not
    removing the fuel? Talk about controlled burns. What are the
    best things we can do in terms of mitigation that everybody
    agrees to?
        Mr. Fogerson. Absolutely, Senator. Thank you very much.
    This is a very wicked problem. There is not an easy answer to
    that. We just need to do more prescribed burns on the forest
    lands, because we are talking forest lands, we are talking
    range lands, we are talking the built environment.
        It is using biomass tools that we talked about earlier so
    that way we can take out the dead and down timber that is not
    salvageable for costing, using the logging operations, doing
    controlled burn operations.
        We do run into some issues with controlled burn operations
    because when we look at using FEMA hazard mitigation funds, we
    are not allowed to do controlled burns, but we can do
    controlled burns using Forest Service or BLM funds.
        Senator Johnson. But you also have problems with anti-
    loggers, that type of thing as well. Right?
        Mr. Fogerson. 100 percent. That is why it is kind of the
    wicked problem of how do we do reduce the fuel volume in the
    forced environment, the rangeland environment, and the built
    environment.
        Some of that also involves using wildland urban interface
    codes. That way we have homeowners that are actually protecting
    their communities around it, tying our community wildland fire
    protection plans that are required for dealing with the
    foresters, and BLM, with the FEMA's hazard mitigation plans.
    That way there is one cohesive plan on how we are going to
    reduce that risk.
        Senator Johnson. I continue to see different charts saying
    that we really do not have an increase in the number of acres
    being burned every year. Some over time it is actually
    decreased. But I think, oftentimes, like hurricanes as well, we
    have just built up so much valuable real estate on the coast,
    or we have built so many expensive homes in fire-prone areas.
    Is that the issue here?
        I thought it was interesting too, you can not have any
    Federal funding until it actually crosses into State land,
    which again seems insane, but kind of understand that. Ms.
    Merrell.
        Dr. Moore-Merrell. Certainly, I would like to address the
    building toward risk. You are absolutely right there, sir. We
    are building toward risk. We continue to build toward fire-
    prone lands, and if we do so without proper ingress and egress
    for the population living there, without proper building codes
    being implemented, adopted, and enforced using fire resistant
    materials, we know that geography is going to burn.
        We have to pre-plan for that so that we do not have these
    disasters. Fire's going to be normal. We are going to have to
    have fire-adapted communities, but they must pre-plan. The
    Federal Government cannot bring all the solutions to this. It
    is too big a problem. Individuals who choose to live there are
    going to have to mitigate their property.
        We are taking a heavy role in that; in education about what
    mitigation looks like, what does right look like, keeping
    vegetation off your home, not using mulch, not having wood
    fences. These are very practical solutions to making a fire-
    prone community.
        Senator Johnson. Just real quick. As you read more about
    the Maui and Lahaina disaster, and people just knew that was a
    disaster waiting to hit and is there kind of a booklet? Is
    there publication of here are the real concerning areas?
        People were not thinking about this before they moved in
    there because I love to live around trees. Have we identified
    these areas, and we are just simply not addressing them, or
    what are we doing toward that--and I apologize going over time
    here.
        Dr. Moore-Merrell. We are continuing to identify those
    risks. We can look at a fire risk index for the wildland, for
    our forested areas. What we do not yet have is a fire risk
    index for the built environment.
        As we build toward those risks, because of the building
    materials that are being used, because of climate change, which
    you appropriately brought up, the drought that we are having
    all of the soil moisture reduction.
        On one side of the island in Maui, it is perfectly green.
    On the other side, everything is dry. We are seeing that not
    only across the islands, but in areas across the Nation that
    have never burned before. Louisiana, for example.
        These are areas that we have to pay attention if we are
    going to build here. Coupled with climate change, we have to
    bring solution pre, not post, necessarily.
        Senator Johnson. OK. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you.
        Chairman Peters. Thank you, Senator. My bipartisan bill,
    the Fire Grants and Safety Act reauthorizes the U.S. Fire
    Administration the Assistance to Firefighters Grant Program, as
    well as the Staffing for Adequate Fire and Emergency Response
    Grant Program through 2030. The bill would also increase
    authorization of appropriations for the fire administration for
    the first time since 2012.
        Dr. Merrell, can you share with us what the U.S. Fire
    Administration would do with these increased resources to
    better help protect our first responders who are preparing for
    these wildfires?
        Dr. Moore-Merrell. I appreciate that, Senator, and thank
    you so much for shepherding that bill and for already passing
    those in the Senate.
        Yes, the U.S. Fire Administration needs the extra
    initiative, the funding, to be able to expand our own resources
    to prepare our firefighters across the Nation to mitigate pre,
    to be able to respond, and to be able to assist with recovery.
        It is imperative that we not only educate the communities.
    Community engagement here has been made abundantly noted that
    the individuals are going to have to take responsibility, but
    it is our firefighters who connect with those individuals in
    their communities to teach them those things.
        We need that. We need the data. We need to be able to build
    a new analytics platform. Our National Fire Incident System was
    built in 1976, and so we need the funding to be able to build
    an appropriate data platform to inform this fire risk index
    that we have discussed.
        These funds are necessary to be able to elevate the USFA to
    an appropriate place where we can engage according to the
    recommendations in the commission. There are many there that
    talk about USFA's engagement at the community level with our
    structural firefighters across the Nation, because they are the
    boots on the ground many times early on. Thank you for leaning
    into that.
        Chairman Peters. Thank you for your answer. Mr. Fogerson, a
    question for you is just how vital are these grant programs to
    local fire departments, especially, given the fact that you are
    all finding yourselves on the front lines protecting your
    communities and resources are clearly stretched? But let this
    Committee know how important these resources are.
        Mr. Fogerson. Absolutely, Senator. Thank you so much for
    the support of these grant programs. When I was the local
    government Deputy Fire Chief, we had assistance for
    firefighters' grants, and we had the SAFER Grant Program. When
    you look at, especially, the built environment, we are putting
    homes in these urban interface areas, but homes do not provide
    the tax revenue to start with. It takes a while for that tax
    revenue to catch up, and so when we put a subdivision in, we
    might not have the funding for staffing.
        These SAFER Grants have a cost shared from the Federal
    Government that varies over time, that allows that local
    government to make that large investment, and I was able to do
    that. We had funds for two people, but we need six people to
    fill the two positions. We were able to use a SAFER Grant to
    hire the other four, and then by the time the cost allocation
    came to 100 percent on our side instead of the cost share, we
    were able to absorb that in our budget. But we were able to, in
    that four-year period, have two more additional firefighters on
    the streets, whereas we would not have had that without that
    SAFER grant.
        The Assistance for Firefighters Grants. Things are very
    expensive in the fire world. You are looking at a fire engine
    that we use on a wildland fire, a type 3 engine, costing
    $300,000 to $400,000. Our law enforcement partners get a lot of
    funds from Department of Justice (DOJ). Our public health
    friends get a lot of funds from the Center for Disease Control
    and Prevention (CDC) Asper. These are the fire services way of
    getting those funds for those high-ticket dollar items that are
    necessary to provide protection in our local communities, but
    might be out of the reach of some of these jurisdictions, and
    the competitive process that is used helps to ensure that we
    are giving it to the right places, I think, nationally.
        Chairman Peters. OK. Thank you. Certainly, the Maui fires
    are just a devastating example of how these wildfires can
    destroy communities in catastrophic ways. As a remote group of
    islands, Hawaii is especially vulnerable to disasters because
    it is difficult for resources to quickly reach the State when
    disaster strikes. FEMA has worked with other Federal, State,
    and local partners to provide continuing relief and recovery to
    disaster survivors with hundreds of FEMA staff deployed to
    Hawaii to assist in those local efforts.
        But Mr. Currie, my question is for you. You recently
    traveled to Hawaii to examine the recovery efforts. Would you
    mind sharing with the Committee some of your top concerns for
    recovery at this point?
        Mr. Currie. Sure. Yes, we went there shortly after the
    fires hit and toured the affected areas. A couple of them I
    mentioned in my opening statement. One of my biggest concerns
    after every disaster is housing for survivors. In a wildfire,
    it is 10 times harder than traditional disasters for many
    reasons.
        First of all, a lot of times these happen remote locations,
    and also in high-cost locations. Whether it be Maui,
    California, there is not a lot of affordable housing that can
    be used temporarily or hotels or things like that. I think, in
    Maui right now, according to FEMA, there is still almost 5,000
    people that are in some type of hotel or temporary condominium
    situation.
        Also with a fire, you have to wait a lot longer. If you
    have a flood, typically you can get your house ready to live in
    within months. Possibly with a fire, it could take years, and
    you are fighting with insurance, you are trying to get Federal
    assistance.
        FEMA does a really good job with really short-term housing,
    and then United States Department of Housing and Urban
    Development (HUD) can come in on the long end, but there is
    this middle ground where people often get stuck and they just
    do not have a good housing option. Housing is one of the
    biggest things that I see as the challenge.
        The other thing is debris removal. This is always a really
    tough part of any disaster. But with fires, again, 10 times
    harder. The debris is toxic. You have to figure out where you
    can take it, how it is going to be excavated. You can imagine a
    lot of this is privately owned land, so people are very
    sensitive about just excavating and removing their property. In
    Maui, they just now figured out where they are going to store
    this, this toxic property and treat it.
        Those are two examples of fire that are just way more
    different and difficult than traditional disasters, and our
    system is just not prepared and designed to handle that yet.
        Chairman Peters. Thank you. Senator Lankford, you are
    recognized for your questions.
        Senator Lankford. Mr. Chair, thank you.
        Thank you, all of you. Obviously, this is a national issue
    that we have to continue to be able to focus on. Appreciate the
    insight from folks that are on the ground. I want to talk a
    little bit about the permitting piece of this. Ms. Barnes, you
    brought this up earlier on. What permitting issues do we need
    to try to be able to work through on Federal permitting post-
    wildfire or pre wildfire that need to be done? Any ideas? Ms.
    Barnes, you mentioned this earlier in your opening statement,
    but anyone can jump in on that.
        Ms. Barnes. Yes. I can start on that, and thank you for the
    question. I think it is just that permitting reform of the
    alignment; the clearing indexes that we need to receive, the
    NEPA part of it, there's issues with contracting.
        Senator Lankford. Can I zero in? What is the NEPA piece of
    it?
        Ms. Barnes. Yes. NEPA often, and in Utah, gets held up a
    lot on litigation. That takes people away from that work that
    gets done on the ground. It takes a lot of staff time, a lot of
    money----
        Senator Lankford. Is this post-fire or pre-fire?
        Ms. Barnes. Both.
        Senator Lankford. OK.
        Ms. Barnes. Any type of mitigation work or post-fire work
    that----
        Senator Lankford. Is the issue there for NEPA, not that
    NEPA exists, it is the litigation around it or what needs to be
    resolved?
        Ms. Barnes. It is the procedures that we need to go through
    on NEPA that get held up in litigation in order to get the
    projects done. Working on those to find more efficiencies
    through that process, I think, would be the best thing to avoid
    being held up in litigation. That takes a lot of staff time. It
    takes away from getting work done on the ground.
        Having a clear sense of what can be done as far as
    mechanisms that we can do in the forest, and categorical
    exclusions; what we can do to get through the process faster.
    The faster we can get through the process, the more work that
    we can get done on the ground.
        Senator Lankford. OK. When you talk about categorical
    exclusions, again, is this before fire and mediation before, or
    post?
        Ms. Barnes. I would say it would be both. In Utah, we are
    years behind on getting work done, and so we need to be able to
    get in there, get work done. Then after a fire, there is an
    immediate need to get things done after a fire happens. But in
    order to get ahead of the wildfire crisis, we need to start
    mitigating hazardous fuels immediately.
        Senator Lankford. OK. Any other permitting comments anybody
    may make? Go ahead.
        Ms. Andreani. Thank you, Senator. Relative to forest
    restoration and the work that is necessary to improve the
    habitat and the area, reduce the threat of wildfire. A couple
    other tools are that both FEMA and the Forest Service are
    typically limited in their willingness to allow third-parties
    to potentially fund conducting the actual NEPA process on their
    behalf. They are very limited in the resources that they have
    available internally to actually do that physical work on the
    ground, go out and do the cultural surveys, biological surveys.
        We are utilizing, for example, in our area are Good
    Neighbor Authority with the Forest Service to be able to
    actually perform some of that work on their behalf. They still
    go through the regulatory process. They still have to approve
    or, typically they go to a cadex, but we are able to step in
    and help with those costs and/or resources that we have under
    contract to perform that work by credible, licensed
    professionals.
        Bringing more flexibility, we approach FEMA about doing
    this for a fuels reduction project that we have in our area
    that is four years in, and we are still waiting for the
    environmental to be done. That would have been a fairly simple
    solution. Yes, we are not taking over the regulatory
    responsibility, but providing them with the legwork, boots on
    the ground to get the work done.
        Senator Lankford. Yes. Obviously, while you are waiting on
    permitting, you are dealing with the potential of a pretty
    expensive wildfire. For some reason, wildfires do not wait on
    NEPA permits.
        Ms. Andreani. They do not. We have seen that repeatedly.
        Senator Lankford. Let me ask a couple of clarifications. I
    brought up in my opening statement as well about power, and
    power lines, and sparking Red Flag Warnings, and what we deal
    with at times. Anything that you have seen that has been
    effective for reducing the number of wildfires caused by power
    lines without actually just shutting down all power to
    communities as well?
        Mr. Currie. Yes. As you know, oftentimes wind. If you have
    another type of storm, it can cause that, and I mean, some of
    the mitigation measures that you use for hurricanes, tornadoes,
    or straight line winds, here in the East, are effective for
    preventing this from happening. The problem is that we have
    mitigated a lot of these things in the East because of the
    threat of hurricanes, and tornadoes, and things like that, but
    we have not done that in the west.
        Senator Lankford. OK. Is it just a rule, or is it just
    physical structure that is attached to the line?
        Mr. Currie. I think it has been more of a matter of the
    risk, and the threat over time, and where most of the Federal
    money has gone over the years.
        Senator Lankford. Yes. A lot of those are not Federal
    dollars. Those are local power companies, and co-ops, and
    others on that. What I am asking is, is it the way they are
    managing the line, or is it a piece of hardware, or something
    else that is missing or software that is missing to manage it?
    Go ahead someone else.
        Ms. Barnes. Yes. I can touch on what Utah has done on that.
    I think it is a collaboration effort with those power
    companies. In Utah, we have taken a stance of identifying where
    that risk is on those power lines, if it is a high, medium, or
    low risk, and then working with those agencies to mitigate that
    risk.
        Developing fire mitigation plans with those agencies of how
    they are going to manage the risk that they have around those
    lines is very important.
        Senator Lankford. OK. Mr. Fogerson.
        Mr. Fogerson. Great question, Senator. In Nevada, we have
    taken a little more proactive response, kind of falls into Utah
    lines, where we prioritize what zone that power line is in and
    the odds of it starting a fire. Then our power company has
    actually contracted local government fire departments to go out
    and do the pole grubbing and the clear the lines. Then the
    power company is working with the Public Utilities Commission
    in Nevada to replace the at-risk power poles.
        A lot of the infrastructure's old, and, and I think that
    speaks to what the GAO representative was talking about was on
    the East Coast. More of that stuff's probably been more
    recently replaced because of a disaster. We just have not had
    the disaster to cause that power pole to need to be replaced
    yet.
        Now they are going and replacing the poles, they are able
    to wrap the poles with special material that actually expands
    to absorb the heat. That way we keep those lines in place when
    a fire does come through as well.
        Senator Lankford. OK. That is really helpful, Mr. Chair. I
    would take up anyone that is here that is willing to be able to
    have a chainsaw in their backyard and be able to bring it on
    over to be able to help us because we deal with these red
    cedars, as I mentioned before, which are explosive to us.
        They are a nice pretty tree. They are terrible pollen in
    the springtime, and they are terrible for being a fire problem
    for us, and they are an invasive species. It is one of the
    areas that we have to deal with on mitigation. I know where we
    are clearing forest and trying to be able to manage underbrush
    and things that are there. We have the same issue in some of
    our open prairie areas as well, and we will have to be able to
    work through processes to be able to resolve that in the days
    ahead. Thank you to all of you.
        Chairman Peters. Very good. Senator, I appreciate you
    warning us on explosive trees in Oklahoma. [Laughter.]
        Senator Rosen. I have my chainsaw ready. Ready for duty.
        Chairman Peters. Bring your chainsaw. We will take some of
    them down and have fewer explosions. Sounds great. Senator
    Rosen, you are recognized for your questions.
        Senator Rosen. Thank you, Chair Peters. I want to build on
    this last question about Senator Lankford brought up about
    shutting down the power lines, and thank you Chief Fogerson. I
    want to say that for shutting down power lines in a place like
    Nevada, that we regularly have temperatures greater than 100
    degrees all throughout our State through a large portion of the
    year, this could create a second deadly consequence by them not
    having power.
        It is just as bad. You could have a fire or high winds. We
    also get the Santa Anas. We get a lot of those winds coming in
    from the coast. Do we want the power lines to go in far? Do we
    want to kill people because there is no air conditioning? This
    is why it is important that we talk about these things.
        But I am going to talk about three main topics. One about
    smoke, one about land management, like I said, 80 percent of
    Nevada's public lands. Then our wildfire designation upgrade,
    which I know is near and dear to the hearts of us in Nevada.
        There really is a big impact of wildfire smoke on our air
    quality for our local communities. We are no stranger to that
    in Nevada. We experience hazardous air quality for weeks at a
    time. It forces small businesses to close their doors. Schools
    have to keep their students inside. It has lots of health
    risks, and the smoke levels are just as expected to increase
    more frequently as climate change causes more frequent and
    severe wildfires.
        When smoke plagues communities like those in my State, we
    often do not have the tools to properly mitigate that, and that
    is really important. Persistent hazardous air quality as a
    result of wildfire smoke, it is not currently eligible for
    major disaster declaration under the Stafford Act. It makes it
    difficult for us to get those Federal funds.
        People really suffer, those with chronic lung disease. I
    remember being up there a few years ago, and I can just tell
    you, I could not breathe after a while. The sky is just brown
    from the smoke.
        Chief Fogerson, can you talk about what happens
    particularly up in Northern Nevada when that smoke just hangs
    over us coming in, and what it means if we could upgrade smoke
    as a major disaster declaration?
        Mr. Fogerson. Thank you for the question, ma'am. A few
    years ago, I think it was the Rim Fire, it was the first time
    that we actually saw this impact because it has not happened--
    from my history of the fire series, I could not remember till
    the Rim Fire, and it just floated in and stuck around for a
    month. Then we had a year without it, and then it seems like
    every year now, every summer, we have two months' worth of
    socked in smoke that is causing air quality issues.
        I do not know if there is a good answer to it. There is a
    lot of people that have some thoughts on it, and we have had
    some jokes about it between the two of us as well and what some
    of these items are. But we have to figure out how we use good
    fire to reduce the number of fires that there are so that way
    we have lighter smoke that is not as heavy, as dense, and is in
    the right time of year for the air balances to occur.
        Then the other one is we have to start investing more in
    public health and sensors. That way, we can see where is the
    bad air quality at and do additional research on what the
    impacts of air quality is. Because one part of it is on not
    only on the community, but then we also have to think of our
    firefighters that are on the fire line in that smoke, and then
    sleeping in a base camp in that smoke, and then taking their
    two-day break at home in that smoke.
        Senator Rosen. They have the long-term health implications.
    We know up in Northern Nevada, we have Lake Tahoe, and all of
    the wildlife, and other things in the community impacted, that
    ecosystem as well. I think investing in research and
    development (R&D) and how we address this is going to be good
    for everyone.
        I know that the commission recommended we invest in a
    national smoke monitoring and alert system, and you think that
    would be a good thing for us to invest in?
        Mr. Fogerson. Yes, ma'am, I do. Because when we look at it,
    urban areas have a lot of those smoke monitors. We look at
    rural frontiers such as Nevada, such as Utah, we do not have
    many of those monitors. It is harder to give people ideas of
    what is the air quality level and what precautions they should
    take.
        Senator Rosen. Thank you. I want to continue to talk about
    response and recovery. Eighty percent of Nevada, Atlanta,
    managed by the Federal Government. 60 percent managed by the
    Bureau of Land Management. We have multiple Federal agencies.
    It is kind of an alphabet soup. The Wildfire Commission reports
    that five Federal land management agencies have missions
    related to wildfire management. All five of these agencies
    interact with you with the tribes, with our communities.
        I am going to stick on Nevada here. What are the challenges
    of having so many agencies, and what might you suggest to help
    streamline this process, particularly, in this middle of a
    disaster?
        Mr. Fogerson. Absolutely, ma'am. Part of the issue is
    trying to get the rules to be the same for each of the Federal
    agencies. Each of the Federal agencies, whether it is
    Department of Agriculture, or Department of Interior, to have
    different rules on how they do things.
        Streamlining those, how the rules are the same for the same
    Federal agencies on how we use those firefighters, and work-
    rest ratios, and all that stuff that National Wildfire
    Coordinators Group is starting to work pretty hard on, but
    there is still some nuances there. The agreements with between
    local government and the different agencies is an issue.
        Then the bigger part of it is pulling in that emergency
    management. That way we have the enterprise-wide approach. That
    way we can bring in public works, we can bring in law
    enforcement, we bring in fire, we can bring in emergency
    management and have that coordinated collaboration like we do
    in an emergency operations center.
        Senator Rosen. A central point of contact in the midst of
    the emergency would be most helpful to cut through some of
    these different bureaucracies, would you say?
        Mr. Fogerson. Absolutely. I would agree with you, ma'am.
        Senator Rosen. I am going to move on to something that I
    know is really important to you and really important to all of
    us. We need to respect the wildfire, right? How do we do that?
    We need to give it the same respect that we give the disaster
    of hurricanes.
        We need to be proactively ready to prepare. We see it
    coming. We know it is coming, but we can not wait till it
    crosses this particular road for you to do anything or some of
    the other groups to do anything. This is impacting our homes,
    our communities, our health, our ability to manage everything
    that happens.
        We have to do more to detect and respond, but moving that
    designation up to be like a hurricane. We see it coming, and we
    are there prepared and ready. What would this do to improve the
    outcome; saving lives, saving businesses, and just getting that
    that fire out, right?
        Mr. Fogerson. Absolutely. The commission recommends a fire
    intelligence center or a fire environment center that is based
    upon The National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration
    (NOAA), and based upon just like a hurricane center. Then we
    move resources that way, then we can put those fires out before
    they get big, or have the resources there to utilize that fire
    in a beneficial manner because we have sufficient resources
    there to make that decision.
        That is the whole crux of ensuring we have the right
    resource at the right place at the right time, based upon what
    science today seems to be able to tell us through either
    artificial intelligence (AI) bottling with our fire cameras, or
    the new sensors the fire administration put in Hawaii, or the
    weather data we are getting from NOAA.
        Senator Rosen. Like I said, it is no longer the Western
    States. It is every State. We need to respect the wildfire, and
    we need to prevent and attack it. Prevent it when we can,
    attack it when it is there, and work on mitigating it before
    and cleaning up after.
        Thank you. I thank you all for being here and everything
    you are doing. This is critical work to every community across
    America. I hope that all the mitigation prevention works so we
    are not having to respond, but I am grateful that you are
    thinking about the best ways to do that. Thank you.
        Chairman Peters. Thank you, Senator Rosen. Senator Carper,
    you are recognized for your questions
        Senator Carper. Yes. Thanks very much. Thanks, again, for
    giving me a chance to talk a little bit about not just
    addressing the symptoms of problems and challenges, but also
    addressing the root causes. Now I have went to another hearing.
    Now I am back here, and I want to ask a couple of questions.
        I want to ask a question, I think, for Mr. Currie,
    involving how do we improve coordination between FEMA and local
    authorities? After that, I want to ask a question of Dr. Moore-
    Merrell, how do we better support at-risk communities?
        Before I do that, let me just say that our planet's on
    fire. It is not the western part of this country. Our planet's
    on fire. The National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration
    tells us last year was the hottest year on the planet. Hottest
    year as far as way back as we can look. Hottest year.
        They have a bicycle race in France, and a year before that,
    Tour de France, they had to call off parts of the race because
    the pavement was melting, on the race. It is not just
    incidental to the western part of this country.
        It is not just sea level rise on the eastern seaboard and
    other places. It is real, and as we try to address the symptoms
    of these challenges, and that is also important that we
    continue to focus on root causes.
        Mr. Currie, if I could, with respect to improving
    coordination between FEMA and local authorities, the evidence
    is, we think, pretty clear. The threat of wildfire is
    escalating at a rapid pace and posing significant risks to the
    health and safety of communities, not just out West, but across
    our country.
        Wildfires are not only more frequent, also more destructive
    than ever before, and more likely to burn hotter because of
    climate change. Extreme and persistent drought create drier
    fuel for those fires, and its accumulation over years creates
    the conditions that lead to high temperature firestorms that
    are extremely dangerous and move fast. The result is more loss
    of life and more loss of property.
        The FEMA plays a critical role in assisting State and local
    authorities in reducing the risk to our environment, our
    infrastructure, and our public health. The Government
    Accountability Office has conducted audits in recent years
    looking into the Federal Government's role in wildfire
    management.
        Question for you, Mr. Currie. Through the various audits
    and reviews that GAO has conducted, how can the Federal
    Government better improve its coordination with State and local
    authorities? I put my old recovering Governor hat on, how can
    we better coordinate with State and local authorities more
    productively to address the impact and risk of wildfires.
        Mr. Currie. Thank you, Senator. Senator Rosen laid this out
    really well. I think what we need to do with wildfires is we
    need to treat them, or prepare for them, and respond to them
    the same way we do for hurricanes.
        I will just use a Delaware analogy.
        Senator Carper. Oh, I love it when our witnesses do this.
    [Laughter.]
        We will get more time for your testimony, sir.
        Mr. Currie. If we expect a hurricane to landfall in
    Delaware, we also declare an emergency--we do not just declare
    an emergency in Delaware. We declare an emergency in Maryland,
    Virginia, and maybe even a couple States north or south of that
    because they are unpredictable. We know it is going to be bad,
    and we just go ahead and assume that is going to happen. We can
    take all the necessary steps to do that.
        That is not how it works in wildfire. We sort of wait and
    hope it does not happen. We hope it does not cross from Federal
    or rural land into a populated area. That's just got to change.
    That mentality and whatever sort of rules and legislation are
    potentially behind that needs to change.
        The other thing we can do is to improve coordination. I
    think FEMA particularly has gotten pretty good in terms of
    coordination with State and local on response. Recovery
    programs are the challenge. All these recovery programs across
    the 30 different agencies at the Federal Government that
    provide for some type of assistance, they were never designed
    to work together for recovery.
        Like Senator Lankford said with the permitting, they all
    have different rules, requirements, timeframes, and they are
    not designed to work in concert together. What happens is, at
    the State and local level, that is just a very frustrating
    process in the years of recovery after.
        Senator Carper. All right. Thank you for that. I noticed
    some of your colleagues up there nodding their heads and trying
    to wish they had a Delaware example they could offer us as
    well. [Laughter.]
        Dr. Moore-Merrell, if you could, I already telegraphed my
    pitch, but question with respect to supporting at-risk
    communities. Fire departments in Delaware and across our
    country are depending more and more, as you know, on Federal
    assistance to effectively respond to wildfires as the threat
    level has increased over time. As my colleagues on this
    Committee have heard me say more than a few times, we got to
    find out what works. We got to do more of that.
        What specific measures are the U.S. Fire Administration and
    FEMA taking to ensure timely and adequate support for at-risk
    communities, particularly in terms of healthcare and
    infrastructure resources? Also, how can we build on successful
    efforts to keep up with the increasing threat level of these
    devastating wildfires?
        Dr. Moore-Merrell. Thank you for the question, Senator.
    Yes, USFA is certainly leaning into our communities and
    particularly their vulnerability to wildfires. We have noted
    throughout the hearing today, the impacts of climate change,
    which you have brought up already, the various impacts. We have
    looked at the vulnerabilities of our land areas, and where we
    are building communities toward fire-prone geographies. This
    continues to escalate our risk.
        We have to lean into and where USFA was leading to advocate
    for building codes that are based on science. We are advocating
    for technology to be able to be introduced. We are advocating
    for more and more complete data, quality data that can be
    leveraged to help us understand the fire risk index. Not just
    in the wildland space, but once a fire hits communities, we
    have no idea today the dynamic nature of that fire.
        Yes, we can equate it to hurricanes and we should elevate
    it to that recognition level, but what we cannot do, like a
    hurricane, there is no cone for a fire. We can look at the cone
    on hurricanes, we can prepare for evacuation. In fire, we do
    not have that.
        There is one caveat. Evacuating communities is very
    dynamic, and this is a challenge that I will say to you. We are
    leaning in heavily on wildfire evacuation. How we are going to
    prepare communities to understand. Right now, we use a ready
    set, go, while ready and set should be already happening, not
    in the midst of a fire.
        We have to understand that when we hit go, that is in the
    midst of a fire. If we have not leaned into preparing our
    people across the Nation to be able to evacuate, then we are
    going to have issues like the Paradise fire, where we had 85
    people trapped on the egress route, like Lahaina, where it was
    so fast the time for evacuation was minimized. There are
    dynamics of wildfire that do not match the hurricane model that
    I do not want to lose base.
        The other thing I would say, Senator, is highlighting, as
    you have, in our communities, the real effect of continuing
    structure fires. It is not always a wildfire that starts with
    vegetation. We have structure-to-structure spread that happened
    in Lahaina that becomes conflagrations in our communities, but
    also, we have already lost in homes, where people should be
    their safest, almost 600 people since January 1, have died in
    their homes.
        That does not mean all of the people who have been
    displaced. This is from fire in general. You said America's
    burning. I am going to echo that. America is burning, and we
    need to be attentive to all methods of fire that is bringing
    that about.
        Senator Carper. Good. Mr. Chair, can I have maybe another
    minute?
        Chairman Peters. Yes.
        Senator Carper. Thanks very much. Yesterday, Democrats,
    Senators, gathered to hold our annual caucus retreat. It was a
    wonderful time to share ideas on what is working and what is
    not. Republicans had a similar kind of caucus, I believe,
    yesterday. One of the things I mentioned to my colleagues
    yesterday, and in terms of what is actually causing this, the
    root causes behind these; our planet on fire.
        About 30 percent of the greenhouse gas emissions in this
    country are coming from our mobile sources, our cars, trucks,
    and vans that that we drive. Probably another 25 percent comes
    from power plants that generate our electricity, coal-fired
    plants, natural gas-fired plants. Maybe another 20 percent
    comes from manufacturing operations, think asphalt plants,
    think steel mills. Those are the three majors. 30 percent, 25
    percent, 20.
        It is like three quarters of the root causes and the
    contributors to this problem we are doing. We are working on
    all of those as a country. We are working on a lot of those and
    trying to provide and guide maybe some inspiration for and
    provide leadership for the rest of the world.
        I want to know that we are not just addressing that the
    symptoms of these problems, which are tragic, but we are also
    going after the root causes, and we are all in this together.
    Thank you very much.
        Dr. Moore-Merrell. If I may, Senator, on the greenhouse
    gases. Wildfires themselves produce greenhouse gases that then
    contribute to climate change that are causing the drought, that
    help perpetuate wildfires. This becomes a very circular-in-
    nature problem. Thank you for recognizing that. Thank you.
        Senator Carper. Thanks, and thanks, Mr. Chair.
        Chairman Peters. Yes. Thank you, Senator Carper. Mr.
    Currie, the GAO has issued a number of reports on the Federal
    Government's emergency management efforts on wildfires, on
    topics ranging from Federal cooperation, to manage a growing
    risk, to barriers to recruiting, to retaining Federal wildland
    firefighters, and many others.
        My question for you is, what are some of GAO's top
    recommendations for FEMA to better help communities prepare
    for, manage, and respond to wildfires? What should the
    Committee know and what can we do?
        Mr. Currie. A couple things. First of all, back in 2019, we
    issued a report on wildfire response, and we actually
    identified some of the things we are talking about today, and
    how unique the response was, and how FEMA programs were not
    necessarily geared toward that.
        FEMA developed a plan in response to some of our
    recommendations to try to change some of their programs to
    better gear themselves toward wildfire. There was some progress
    there, there just was not enough.
        A great example is the housing one I talked about. FEMA
    provides short-term housing when the Federal Government
    responds to a disaster like a wildfire. This is not really
    designed for the length of recovery for a wildfire that a
    survivor has to deal with, and there is not really a good
    option in that intermediate phase, which is what we are seeing
    right now in Lahaina and trying to find places for disaster
    survivors to live.
        We have made recommendations related to housing. I talked
    about the debris removal challenges, how there is so much
    different than hurricanes. But one of the biggest things that
    needs to be done is reform of the recovery process and the
    recovery programs. Because, again, what we hear from the State
    and local level over and over again is that the programs were
    not designed to work together, and that leads to delays, and
    oftentimes missed opportunities in disaster recovery.
        Chairman Peters. Good. Thank you. As we wrap up here, I
    have a question, Mr. Fogerson, and Ms. Andreani, if you would
    address this. This deals with the Wildland Fire Mitigation and
    Management Commission Report, which we mentioned had some 150
    recommendations.
        An awful lot to think about, but I am going to ask both of
    you to prioritize some of those in your mind. There was not a
    prioritization in the report, but what things stand out for
    you? Mr. Fogerson, you can start and then give us some idea as
    to what we should be looking at. If we are drafting
    legislation, what should we be focused on?
        Mr. Fogerson. Great question, Senator. I am sorry I do not
    have a good answer for you because it is such a wicked problem,
    that is why there is 148 recommendations we made. It would be
    hard, and I would be remiss to tell you the top 3, the top 5,
    the top 10.
        Chairman Peters. Top 11 then. [Laughter.]
        Mr. Fogerson. I would be looking at the themes that we have
    in the report, the chapters, and maybe seeing how we do
    legislation in each of those various chapters and grouping
    those things together because one really has a nexus to
    another.
        We have a great chart that commission staff made for us,
    and, and I am sure we can share with your staff that shows how
    interconnected all the recommendations are. If you pick three,
    then that eliminates a few other ones. I would really highlight
    that staff looks at the chapters and sees about using that as
    their priority base rather than the recommendations.
        Chairman Peters. That is a good guide. Andreani, do you
    have top 10 list, or top 5, or 3?
        Ms. Andreani. I would concur with David that they are all
    important. However, I did point to a couple in my testimony
    that I think are, for lack of a better term, fairly
    straightforward opportunities that can dramatically change
    outcomes in communities.
        I would ask you to consider those because I think their
    policy level, some may, level opportunities to right-size the
    problem, and address some very immediate issues that we have,
    so.
        Chairman Peters. OK. Very good. In the interest time, we
    are going to wrap up. But Dr. Merrell, I am going to be
    submitting a question for the record\1\ for FEMA to kind of
    identify for us, which recommendations FEMA is implementing on
    its own from the commission, and which recommendations you
    believe require congressional action, specifically. I will be
    submitting that for the record and would look forward to seeing
    your response to that.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
        \1\ The information referred to appears in the Appendix on page
    108.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
        I would like to, first, just thank all of our witnesses for
    joining us here today to share your testimony and expertise.
    This is an important conversation, and one that is not in
    today. We have a lot of work to do, including a lot of
    recommendations to act on, but also support the men and women
    who are dealing with this issue each and every day, and
    oftentimes risking their lives to do that.
        Congress and the entire Federal Government must do its part
    to address this increasing threat, and we must do everything we
    can to create resilient communities in the process. I look
    forward to our continuing work together to improve both
    mitigation, preparedness, response, as well as recovery
    capabilities.
        The record for this hearing will remain open for 15 days
    until 5 p.m. on March 29, 2024, for the submission of
    statements and questions for the record.
        Thank you, again. This hearing is now adjourned.
        [Whereupon, at 11:46 a.m., the hearing was adjourned.]

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