[Senate Hearing 118-258]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
S.Hrg. 118-258
RECREATION AT RISK: THE NATURE OF
CLIMATE COSTS
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HEARING
BEFORE THE
COMMITTEE ON THE BUDGET
UNITED STATES SENATE
ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
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March 20, 2024
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Printed for the use of the Committee on the Budget
[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
__________
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
55-279 PDF WASHINGTON : 2024
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COMMITTEE ON THE BUDGET
SHELDON WHITEHOUSE, Rhode Island, Chairman
PATTY MURRAY, Washington CHARLES E. GRASSLEY, Iowa
RON WYDEN, Oregon MIKE CRAPO, Idaho
DEBBIE STABENOW, Michigan LINDSEY O. GRAHAM, South Carolina
BERNARD SANDERS, Vermont RON JOHNSON, Wisconsin
MARK R. WARNER, Virginia MITT ROMNEY, Utah
JEFF MERKLEY, Oregon ROGER MARSHALL, Kansas
TIM KAINE, Virginia MIKE BRAUN, Indiana
CHRIS VAN HOLLEN, Maryland JOHN KENNEDY, Louisiana
BEN RAY LUJAN, New Mexico RICK SCOTT, Florida
ALEX PADILLA, California MIKE LEE, Utah
Dan Dudis, Majority Staff Director
Kolan Davis, Republican Staff Director and Chief Counsel
Mallory B. Nersesian, Chief Clerk
Alexander C. Scioscia, Hearing Clerk
C O N T E N T S
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WEDNESDAY, MARCH 20, 2024
OPENING STATEMENTS BY COMMITTEE MEMBERS
Page
Senator Sheldon Whitehouse, Chairman............................. 1
Prepared Statement........................................... 23
Senator Charles E. Grassley...................................... 3
Prepared Statement........................................... 26
Senator Maggie Hassan............................................ 5
STATEMENTS BY COMMITTEE MEMBERS
Senator John Kennedy............................................. 17
WITNESSES
Ms. Theresa McKenney, Director of Sustainability and Government
Affairs, NEMO Equipment........................................ 6
Prepared Statement........................................... 28
Ms. Hilary Hutcheson, Outfitter.................................. 8
Prepared Statement........................................... 32
Mr. Gus Schumacher, American Cross-Country Skier, Olympian....... 10
Prepared Statement........................................... 35
Dr. Joao Gomes, Howard Butcher III Professor of Finance;
Professor of Economics, and Senior Vice Dean of Research,
Centers, and Academic Initiatives, Wharton School, University
of Pennsylvania................................................ 11
Prepared Statement........................................... 37
Mr. Scott Walter, President, Capital Research Center............. 13
Prepared Statement........................................... 46
APPENDIX
Responses to post-hearing questions for the Record:
Ms. McKenney................................................. 52
Ms. Hutcheson................................................ 53
Mr. Schumacher............................................... 55
Dr. Gomes.................................................... 57
Mr. Walter................................................... 63
RECREATION AT RISK: THE NATURE OF
CLIMATE COSTS
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WEDNESDAY, MARCH 20, 2024
Committee on the Budget,
U.S. Senate,
Washington, DC.
The hearing was convened, pursuant to notice, at 10:02
a.m., in the Dirksen Senate Office Building, Room SD-608, Hon.
Sheldon Whitehouse, Chairman of the Committee, presiding.
Present: Senators Whitehouse, Van Hollen, Padilla, Hassan,
Grassley, Braun, Kennedy, and R. Scott.
Also present: Democratic Staff: Dan Dudis, Majority Staff
Director; Alexandra Gilliland, Climate Policy Advisor; Emily
Caffrey, American Nuclear Society Fellow.
Republican Staff: Chris Conlin, Deputy Staff Director;
Krisann Pearce, General Counsel; Jordan Pakula, Professional
Staff Member; Ryan Flynn, Staff Assistant.
Witnesses:
Ms. Theresa McKenney, Director of Sustainability and
Government Affairs, NEMO Equipment
Ms. Hilary Hutcheson, Outfitter
Mr. Gus Schumacher, American Cross-Country Skier, Olympian
Dr. Joao Gomes, Howard Butcher III Professor of Finance;
Professor of Economics, and Senior Vice Dean of Research,
Centers, and Academic Initiatives, Wharton School, University
of Pennsylvania
Mr. Scott Walter, President, Capital Research Center
OPENING STATEMENT OF CHAIRMAN WHITEHOUSE \1\
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\1\ Prepared statement of Chairman Whitehouse appears in the
appendix on page 23.
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Chairman Whitehouse. Good morning, everyone. I'm sorry for
being a little bit late here. It's nice to have this hearing
underway. Thanks so much for joining us. Thank you,
particularly, to Senator Hassan, for visiting to introduce a
New Hampshire witness. Would you like to do that right now
first before my opening statement and be on your way. Does your
schedule allow you to stick around for the statement?
Senator Hassan. I am prepared to stay around for opening
statements and then I'll do the introduction.
Chairman Whitehouse. Okay. Super. Ranking Member Grassley,
members of the Committee, witnesses and guests, welcome to our
14th hearing on the economic dangers associated with climate
change that affect the federal budget. Last week, again, one of
my colleagues across the aisle questioned this series of
hearings. It is a common Republican refrain. But if you've been
listening, you've heard over and over again from highly
credible witnesses about economy-wide threats from climate
change.
We have heard warnings from economists, scientists, medical
professionals, insurance and investment executives, even a
former Republican Senator Majority Leader. They warn of danger
ahead. Please remember that we are operating under an agreed
budget for both this fiscal year and next. The Fiscal
Responsibility Act passed in June of last year with support
from Republicans on this Committee set a two-year budget
framework, so we have a budget through to October of 2025, so
it makes sense to look ahead.
And if you look at our national debt, about a third of it
comes from emergencies. If we'd been better prepared, the
national debt would be much less. These climate hearings have
focused on a huge emergency bearing down on us. The fact that
the climate emergency is one that Republicans and fossil fuel
polluters would prefer not to talk about doesn't make it any
less real. Facts are facts and physics is physics.
There's a pattern here. We offer warnings, Republicans mock
the warnings, and then the news proves the warnings true. We
held a hearing warning about sea level rise and storm impact on
property values driven by uninsurability and we are witnessing
the property insurance market circling the drain in Florida. No
insurance, no mortgage, no mortgages, very hard to sell your
property.
We held a hearing warning about wildfire risk and this
month the Smokehouse Creek fire in Texas, the state's largest
fire ever, burned more than 1.2 million acres, killing
livestock, destroying crops, and hammering Texas's agricultural
sector. With home insurance premiums already sky high, partly
from climate risks, many residents didn't have homeowner's
insurance. Again, no insurance, no mortgage, no mortgage, it's
hard to sell your property.
We held a hearing warning about supply chains'
susceptibility to climate risk and we're witnessing extreme
drought, reducing water levels in the Panama Canal so low that
shipping is down nearly 40 percent from last year, pushing up
prices. Recently, Fed. Chairman Jerome Powell warned that
inflation is being driven by climate change, driving up
insurance costs. It's climate inflation.
We had a hearing on climate disasters and disaster costs
and in just the last year, the United States suffered a record-
breaking 28 separate billion-dollar disasters, pushing up
prices and burdening the budget. These mounting disasters posed
systemic risks to our economy. For those who have not been
paying attention, look up what a systemic risk is.
Some of the economic hits from climate change are sector
specific, which brings us today to the climate-related threats
to the outdoor recreation industry. Outdoor recreation is not
just an essential part of American culture. It's also an
important part of our economy. $1.1 trillion in economic output
and almost five million jobs. Each year Americans spent
hundreds of billions of dollars exploring the outdoors,
hunting, fishing, hiking, skiing, camping, canoeing, and
sailing. A lot of family memories are made outdoors.
Communities across the country count on outdoor recreation
to attract residents and visitors, creating jobs, and economic
development. Utah, for instance, has seen businesses locate
there for its robust outdoor recreation opportunities and
employees head there for that same reason. Winter sports have
been a huge economic driver in Utah and states across the
country, but climate change is wreaking havoc on communities
and industries that depend on snow.
Wisconsin got so little snow this year that the Small
Business Administration extended disaster coverage to affected
businesses. Ski areas across the country struggled to operate
in warmer winters. The Teton Pass ski area in Montana was only
open four full days this year. Hunting seasons change as
climate change forces animals into new migratory patterns.
Arkansas, the duck capital of the world, has seen fewer
mallards migrate through the state. The Game and Fish
Commission estimates that duck hunting generates $70 million in
economic activity there each year.
Warming streams and rivers jeopardize the fishing industry
in the communities that rely on fishing. Montana, the
unofficial fly-fishing capital of the United States, gets an
estimated $900 million a year from fishing, but warming streams
and declining trout populations are threatening local shops,
restaurants, guides, and lodges.
Storms also drive away tourism. 2022's torrential rains
flooded Yellowstone National Park, destroying roads and closing
park entrances at the height of the tourist season, depriving
the local economy of the seasonal boon that usually carries
them through the year.
We've spent these hearings discussing the economic dangers
of climate change, which are real, and which are large, but
it's also worth remembering the losses that can't be
quantified. The fishing place your grandfather took you where
you can't take your granddaughter. Your glacier national park
losing its glacier, the quiet now on lakes that once froze over
and rang with the cheerful noise of pond hockey. Once cold
streams now barren of trout near campsites ringed by dead trees
killed by bark beetle, fish kills and algae fouling beaches and
bays.
Yes, there are huge economic stakes to ignoring climate
change, but there is also harm to our way of life, to our
traditions, to our family memories, to our connection to the
land and waters, which is yet another reason why Congress must
get serious about the carbon pollution that is costing us all
so much.
Chairman Whitehouse. With that, let me turn to my
distinguished Ranking Member and then to Senator Hassan for her
introduction.
OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR GRASSLEY \2\
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\2\ Prepared statement of Senator Grassley appears in the appendix
on page 26.
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Senator Grassley. Mr. Chairman, you referred to the common
refrain of Republicans. Are you ready to hear some more of that
common refrain?
Chairman Whitehouse. I fully expect it, my friend. I fully
expect it. This is not my first rodeo talking about this issue
in this Committee.
Senator Grassley. Okay. Last week, Senator Romney said the
truth out loud. There is ``no work being done by this Committee
to deal with our budget and to deal with federal spending.''
Senator Romney also said, ``this Committee needs to stop acting
for the cameras and start working for the American people to
finally deal with the massive deficit and debt that we have.''
That sounds kind of reasonable to me.
I've been saying this for 15 climate change hearings and
counting. Today, rather than working on a budget to curb
spending we're discussing the impact of climate change on
outdoor recreation. Democrats pretend that the Fiscal
Responsibility Act included a budget for 2024 and '25. In fact,
Congress is operating under a so-called deeming resolution
that's supposed to be a temporary placeholder until we complete
a real budget.
It's no substitute for a serious fiscal plan based on
bipartisan input that incorporates new tools to enforce fiscal
discipline. This Committee has the sole responsibility to
produce such a budget. If we don't, no other committee will.
The same can't be said on the subject of outdoor recreation.
Senator Barrasso and Manchin are working diligently together to
pass a bipartisan outdoor recreation legislation at the Energy
and Natural Resources Committee. Senator Ernst and Shaheen held
a similar small business hearing on outdoor recreation a few
months back.
I know Iowans enjoy outdoor recreation as much as anyone,
whether it's hunting, fishing, hiking, camping, boating, Iowa
has plenty to offer. Not to brag, Mr. Chairman, but Iowa, in
fact, has three times as many ski areas as Rhode Island. We
have three. You have one outdoor----
Chairman Whitehouse. Low bar.
Senator Hassan. New Hampshire might be able to weigh in
here.
Senator Grassley. Outdoor recreation plays an important
role in our national economy. In 2022, outdoor recreation
contributed $564 billion to our Gross Domestic Product (GDP),
but this Committee has bigger fish to fry. Last year interest
alone on the national debt cost taxpayers $659 billion and the
interest costs are projected to exceed one trillion within two
years. It's time that we stopped ignoring the Congressional
Budget Office's (CBO) repeated warnings about our unsustainable
debt and the serious risks it poses to our economy.
Yes, climate change also poses a risk to our economy, but
its risks to outdoor recreation is far from clear. Peer-
reviewed research in this area is sparse. To the extent it
exists, several studies suggest it could be a boon for many
parts of the industry. Not even President Biden's U.S.
Department of Commerce has published any data or research
indicating impending turmoil in the outdoor recreation economy
due to the climate change.
Now, this hearing may add evidence where the Department of
Commerce is short. I hope so. My Democratic friends on this
Committee consistently complain about an alleged lack of
bipartisanship when it comes to climate policy, but then they
use climate change smoke and mirrors to ignore our immediate
responsibilities as legislators. It's no wonder Americans are
fed up with Washington. It's also no wonder participation at
these climate hearings has faded.
Senator Romney and I both believe climate change is a
significant problem, but neither of us can support this agenda
for the Budget Committee. Our constituents deserve a Budget
Committee that focuses on the budget. That's why I'm excited to
welcome Professor Gomes from Wharton School of the University
of Pennsylvania. I'm going to be introducing him in a minute,
so I will end my statement here at this point. I am eager to
hear how climate change and outdoor recreation groups use some
of their resources to bolster this agenda that you've laid out
for us, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Whitehouse. Thank you very much, Senator Grassley.
We have five witnesses today, including a witness from New
Hampshire, who will be introduced by Senator Hassan. I want to
thank Ms. Theresa McKinney for being here and turn to Senator
Hassan for the introduction.
STATEMENT OF SENATOR HASSAN
Senator Hassan. Thank you very much Chair Whitehouse and
Senator Grassley and to my colleagues on the Committee. I am
really pleased and honored to be here today to introduce
Theresa McKinney, who is the Director of Sustainability and
Government Affairs at NEMO Equipment, an innovative outdoor
gear brand based in Dover, New Hampshire.
Theresa has strong expertise in developing and selling
sustainable goods and I know that the Committee will benefit
greatly from hearing from her today. NEMO's camping and outdoor
gear makes it easier to enjoy the natural beauty in New
Hampshire and across the world. NEMO's founder, Cam Brensinger,
started the company in 2002 after camping on Mount Washington,
New Hampshire and the Northeast's highest peak, which is known
as, I think you know, Senator Whitehouse, for its erratic and
dramatic weather. And Cam Brensinger realized that existing
tent designs needed to be improved.
He invented a low-pressure, inflatable structure for
backpacking tents that could withstand the higher and highest
winds. That innovation became the basis for the company's first
product line. Over the years, NEMO has continued to develop new
designs and has earned accolades for its products.
I most recently visited NEMO in January to tour its
facility in Dover. It was clear from my visit that
sustainability and advocacy for people and the planet are
central to NEMO's mission. The company not only depends on a
thriving outdoor recreation economy, but also on businesses,
communities, and governments working together to support
innovation and protect outdoor spaces for future generations.
And I would be remiss if I didn't mention NEMO's recent
contribution of sleeping bags to the New Hampshire Humanitarian
Aid group called Common Man for Ukraine. This gear will help
Ukrainian orphans and displaced families survive the war. So,
it is a true honor to introduce NEMO today. Thank you, Theresa,
for being here to share NEMO's insights with this Committee and
for proudly representing the values that Granite Staters live
every day. With that, I'll turn it back to you, Chair
Whitehouse. Thank you.
Chairman Whitehouse. Thank you, Senator. Our next witness
is Ms. Hilary Hutcheson. Ms. Hutcheson has fly fished nearly
all her life. I have walked trout streams disentangling my line
from bushes and trying to undo wind knots. I never managed to
get much actual fishing done. She currently guides at Glacier
Anglers and owns and runs a fly shop, Larry's Fly and Supply,
in her hometown of Columbia Falls, Montana. We welcome her
extensive experience on the water and in Montana's streams.
Next, we have Mr. Gus Schumacher, an American cross-country
skier and Olympian, who last month became the first American
man to win a World Cup Cross Country Skiing distance event in
40 years. Mr. Schumacher hails from Wisconsin, grew up in
Alaska, and travels the world to compete in skiing events. He
brings us the perspective from the snow sports industry.
I now turn to my friend, Senator Grassley, to introduce the
Republican selected witnesses.
Senator Grassley. Dr. Joao Gomes is a professor of finance
and economics and Senior Vice Dean, Research Centers and
Academic Initiatives at Wharton School, University of
Pennsylvania. He is also a Visiting Scholar for the U.S.
Federal Reserve. His expertise is on the role of financial
markets to the macro economy.
We'll hear also from Mr. Scott Walter, President of Capital
Research Center. He served as special assistant to the
President of the United States for Domestic Policy. He was also
vice president at the Philanthropic Roundtable. Walter has
written for and been quoted in the New York Times, Washington
Post, Wall Street Journal, and Chronical of Philanthropy. Thank
you for coming.
Chairman Whitehouse. Ms. McKinney, you are first up. Thank
you so much for being here. You have five minutes to deliver
your testimony and your full statement will be made a part of
the record, as will be the case for all of the witnesses.
Please proceed.
STATEMENT OF THERESA MCKENNEY, DIRECTOR OF SUSTAINABILITY AND
GOVERNMENT AFFAIRS, NEMO EQUIPMENT \3\
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\3\ Prepared statement of Ms. McKenney appears in the appendix on
page 28.
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Ms. McKenney. Thank you. Thank you, Senator Hassan, Chair
Whitehouse, Ranking Member Grassley, and members of the
Committee. Thank you for the opportunity to testify today on
climate-related costs in the outdoor recreation sector. It is
an honor to be here. My name is Theresa McKinney and I'm the
Director of Sustainability and Government Affairs at NEMO
Equipment, an independent, family-owned camping gear brand
based in Dover, New Hampshire.
NEMO was founded in 2002 by our CEO, Cam Brensinger, an
avid climber and mountaineer, Cam designed our first tent after
a rough night winter camping on New Hampshire's tallest peak.
We filed our first patent over 20 years ago and have since
designed innovative tents, sleeping bags, sleeping pads, camp
furniture, and carry systems.
While our team of 50 is small, we have an outsized impact.
According to 2023 industry sale through data, NEMO is the
number one bestselling brand of camping gear in U.S. specialty
outdoor retail. NEMO is part of the outdoor recreation economy.
Outdoor recreation generated $1.1 trillion in economic output
in 2022, contributing more than mining, utilities, and
agriculture to U.S. GDP.
According to the latest Bureau of Economic Analysis data,
the outdoor recreation economy grew 2.5 times faster than the
U.S. economy and generated five million jobs. More Americans
are participating in outdoor recreation than ever. The outdoor
recreation participant base has grown each of the last eight
years. New Hampshire's own White Mountain National Forest
reported a 40 percent increase in outdoor recreation between
2015 and 2021.
Although outdoor recreation has been surging, NEMO faces
challenges. Our continued success is threatened by a long list
of global issues, including high interest rates, a cautious
consumer market, and trade uncertainties. Running a business
will always come with challenges, but we believe that the
climate crisis is the greatest threat to NEMO's longevity and
to the future of outdoor recreation in America.
Along with the risk to human lives and livelihoods, climate
change poses a real and imminent threat to NEMO's business.
Without safe, accessible and enjoyable places to recreate,
there is no longer a need for our gear. We are already feeling
the negative impacts of extreme weather and climate change on
our state's outdoor economy. Outdoor recreation accounts for
3.2 percent of New Hampshire's GDP and grew 18.1 percent
between 2021 and 2022.
Small businesses are the backbone of New Hampshire's
outdoor industry, including guides, outfitters, retailers, and
campground operators. Many of these businesses are based in
rural areas and are seasonal. The success of small businesses
in our industry depends on stable, predictable weather and
seasons.
The summer of 2023 was the wettest on record in New
Hampshire with 21 inches of rainfall, negatively impacting the
camping season. New Hampshire issued 38 flash flood warnings
during the month of July alone. From 1980 to today, New
Hampshire has experienced 21 separate billion-dollar weather-
related disasters. Research suggests that extreme weather
events are expected to increase in our state.
This month New Hampshire State Parks published a statewide
comprehensive outdoor recreation plan. As part of this process,
over 300 local outdoor recreation providers were interviewed
about the impact of climate change on our industry. Eighty-
seven percent of providers reported that shorter winter seasons
impact outdoor recreation. Eighty-six percent reported damage
to recreation infrastructure. Economic impacts were reported
across every operational measure surveyed, including
maintenance, finances, and planning.
At NEMO, we felt the impacts of recent volatile weather
through overstock issues and order cancellations from retailers
in New England and beyond. In New Hampshire, 2023 was the third
warmest winter on record, followed by the wettest summer on
record, and now, in 2024, has been the warmest winter on
record. Local retailers have their cash tied up in ski clothing
and gear, leading to less open to buy for our spring and summer
camping goods.
Negative impacts of climate change are already affecting
small businesses in the outdoor recreation economy. We do not
only look to government to solve this problem. Businesses like
ours that manufacture goods are contributors to this issue and
we are ready to take responsibility for our part. In 2020, NEMO
publicly announced a commitment to reduce our carbon intensity
in half by 2030. Thus far, we've received a 22 percent
reduction in emissions intensity per product.
Businesses like NEMO are stepping up, but we'll need the
government to support the economic resilience of the outdoor
sector. Opportunities include passing America's Outdoor
Recreation Act and the Explore Act bipartisan, bicameral bills
that will provide support and flexibility to outdoor recreation
businesses. Protection of the climate investments made in the
Inflation Reduction Act and modernization of the Farm bill to
support outdoor recreation access and climate resilience in
rural communities across America.
Thank you for the opportunity to testify today and we
welcome the opportunity to work with Congress on this important
issue so Americans today, tomorrow, and 50 years from now can
enjoy time outside of the campfire, on the summit, at the
fishing hole, or in their backyards. Thank you.
Chairman Whitehouse. Thank you very much. Ms. Hutcheson,
please proceed.
STATEMENT OF HILARY HUTCHESON, OUTFITTER \4\
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\4\ Prepared statement of Ms. Hutcheson appears in the appendix on
page 32.
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Ms. Hutcheson. Chairman Whitehouse, Ranking Member
Grassley, and members of the Committee, I appreciate the
opportunity to connect on the impacts of climate change on the
outdoor recreation economy as well.
As a full-time fly-fishing guide, outfitter, and shop owner
near Glacier National Park, Montana, my career is one of the
29,453 jobs directly supported by outdoor recreation in our
state. As the outfitter of record for the largest and longest
running commercial river company in the Northern Rockies region
with 185 employees, including 100 river guides, I feel
responsible for livelihoods beyond my own.
My fellow guides and I offer an excellent experience to the
many of the 12.5 million people who visit our state each year,
spending $5.82 billion. More than 700,000 visitors book a
guided trip through an outfit like mine every year in Montana.
Water-based activities represent the largest guided trip
sectors and guiding fishing trips bring in about $80 billion a
year.
We love our jobs. Unfortunately, our increasing unstable
river office environment marked by drastic temperature
fluctuation, wildfires, floods, droughts, wildlife stress, and
other disruptions warrants extra attention to guides' physical
and mental health. Something that my company recognizes as an
essential corporate expense. There's even a nonprofit crisis
hotline that's dedicated to professional outdoor guides in
Montana and in Idaho with an increasing number of calls coming
in because of environmental stressors.
The cost of doing business should keep me up at night. It
should keep me on my toes. So, it is my job to think about what
is driving these new numbers and how we can work with you to
keep it all in balance. More than three million people visit
Glacier National Park each year to catch a glimpse of its
diminishing glaciers and enjoy the landscape that those
features carved. The ground of the continent stands as one of
the planet's last relatively intact ecosystems. And I'm
thrilled that a bucket list item for many anglers around the
world is to connect with the wild, native west slope cutthroat
trout in an intact ecosystem.
Anglers are also increasingly aware of how human-caused
climate change affects this delicate balance. Clients who spend
money to fish with us are asking tough questions these days.
They ask about our new normals like unseasonable rain on snow
events that can scourer trout spawning beds. They ask why we
run out of water so early in the season. They ask why they're
seeing so many weekend hybrid trout. We're fortunate to have
some of the world's top climate scientists located in our big
outdoor classroom, so we refer to their research to explain how
warmer water is hospitable to non-native species that can eek
out native trout populations. We invest in extra education for
guides who are becoming accustomed to citing scientific
evidence.
Today we explain why we keep trout in the water instead of
lifting them up into the boat for photo. We explain the
government-imposed rules called Hoot Owl regulations that
prohibit fishing when the river is too hot. Trout mortality
goes up drastically when they are caught and released in waters
that are warmer than their optimal survival range.
I think about budgets all the time. It's becoming
increasingly challenging to budget for the season. Will we have
dangerous high water or historically low water? Should we not
book guests in August when thick smoke from wildfires might
keep us off the river again? How many client trip deposits will
we have to refund because of cancelled vacations? How many
guides should we hire, given all this uncertainty?
A recent report underscores the economic jeopardy posed by
climate change, predicting the potential loss of 8,800 outdoor
recreation jobs and a staggering $263 million in labor earnings
by mid century in Montana alone. This includes anticipated
declines in visitation to Glacier and Yellowstone. Something
that helps me work through my budget concerns is my
connectivity to the greater fishing community. I'm able to
share best practices with my colleagues in Florida, Maine,
Texas, Oregon, and Alaska, who are dealing with equally
distressing challenges and who are painfully impacted by the
deterioration of our fisheries.
I'm encouraged by the historic ability of the federal
government to listen to people who are the voice of the river.
I'm fueled by the Wild and Scenic Rivers Act of 1968, which
offers appropriate levels of federal protection to important
watersheds. This legislation not only safeguards certain rivers
from development, but also fosters economic vitality by
recognizing their outstandingly remarkable values. I'm grateful
for the bipartisan management that transcends political
boundaries, fostering public participation, and river
protection.
As guides, we are told that we have the best job in the
world. We're in the perfect place, doing the perfect thing,
having perfect adventures, so it can feel pretty weird to point
out to you today that it's not all perfect. But all three of my
adult children have jobs in outdoor rec. They've been dealing
with the impacts of climate change their entire lives. Standing
up for rivers is a thread woven through our family structure.
So, for my kids, who became my coworkers for the river
professionals who are among the finest humans on Earth for our
guests and in the face of these environmental challenges, I
implore our leaders to prioritize decisive action on climate
change. The future of our environment, economy, and community
is a package deal and it is directly connected to our
collective efforts to safeguard our planet for generations to
come. Thank you.
Chairman Whitehouse. Thanks, Ms. Hutcheson. Mr. Schumacher.
STATEMENT OF GUS SCHUMACHER, AMERICAN CROSS-COUNTRY SKIER,
OLYMPIAN \5\
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\5\ Prepared statement of Mr. Schumacher appears in the appendix on
page 35.
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Mr. Schumacher. Hello. Thank you for having me here,
Chairman Whitehouse, Ranking Member Grassley, and members of
the Committee, for the opportunity to testify today on the
critical issue of climate change and its impacts on outdoor
recreation. My name is Gus Schumacher and I'm a world champion
Noritic skier. I just finished my racing season after having
been the third ever American male to win a World Cup race.
I was born in Wisconsin and grew up in Anchorage, Alaska,
where I currently live and I've spent much of my life immersed
in the beauty and challenges of outdoor activities. I come
before you today, not only as a professional athlete, but also
as a concerned citizen troubled by the effects of climate
change on our environment and the activities we cherish.
As a skier, I've witnessed first-hand the profound
alterations to our natural landscapes and the diminishing
opportunities for outdoor recreation. Climate change has
dramatically altered the conditions for winter sports,
including Noritic skiing. Rising temperatures have led to
shorter and more erratic weather seasons with snow cover
becoming increasingly unreliable. The delicate balance required
for these optimal skiing conditions, sufficient snowfall, cold
temperatures, stable weather is being disrupted at an alarming
rate. This unpredictably not only effects recreational
opportunities, but also jeopardizes the economic viability of
communities reliance on winter tourism like those Wisconsin
communities you mentioned earlier.
Additionally, the loss of snow-packing glaciers due to
warming temperatures threatens the long-term viability of
skiing regions. Glacial retreat not only diminishes the
aesthetic appeal of our landscapes, but also impacts water
resources vital for snowmaking which further exacerbates the
challenges faced by ski resorts and outdoor enthusiasts. These
environmental changes wrought by climate change have cascading
effects on ecosystem and wildlife habitats. So, it's us and the
wildlife that are affected, but through this and as my career
as an Olympian, I've seen cancelled races and races that
struggle to run.
For example, this winter I raced in Cable, Wisconsin at the
American Birkebeiner, which is the largest public ski race in
the U.S., which had to run on a 10K artificial snow loop,
unlike it's normal point-to-point 50K race, which lead to fewer
participants and also, as I've heard from my sponsors, much
less purchasing of skis across the country. Amid these
challenges, though, lies an opportunity for action. As a
nation, we have the capacity and responsibility to mitigate the
impacts of climate change and safeguard our outdoor heritage
for future generations.
Investing in renewable energy, promoting sustainable land
management practices, and supporting initiatives to reduce
greenhouse gas emissions are critical steps in addressing the
root causes of climate change. We must also prioritize
adaptation measures to ensure the resilience of our communities
and outdoor infrastructure in the face of a changing climate.
This includes investing in snowmaking technologies,
diversifying recreations offerings, and fostering partnerships
between government agencies, businesses, and nonprofit
organizations to enhance climate resilience.
The impacts of climate change in outdoor recreation are
undeniable and demand urgent action. I'm one of the millions
who represent this outdoor state and its trillion-dollar value
that contributes to a large portion of our economy. As stewards
of the planet and custodians of our outdoor heritage, we have a
moral imperative to confront the challenges of climate change
head on and preserve the natural wonders that enrich our lives.
By working together, we can build a more sustainable and
resilient future for all. Thank you for your attention and I
welcome any questions.
Chairman Whitehouse. Thank you very much. Dr. Gomes. It's
pronounced Gomes. Correct?
Dr. Gomes. That's okay.
Chairman Whitehouse. Thank you.
STATEMENT OF DR. JOAO GOMES, HOWARD BUTCHER III, PROFESSOR OF
FINANCE; PROFESSOR OF ECONOMICS AND SENIOR VICE DEAN OF
RESEARCH, CENTERS, AND ACADEMIC INITIATIVES, WHARTON SCHOOL,
UNIVERSITY OF PENNSYLVANIA \6\
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\6\ Prepared statement of Dr. Gomes appears in the appendix on page
37.
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Dr. Gomes. Thank you, Senator Whitehouse, Senator Grassley,
and members of the Committee. I am the Senior Vice Dean for
Research at the Wharton School, but my remarks today reflect
only my personal views.
Climate change is unquestionably a very serious issue, but
our rapidly darkening fiscal outlook will soon make investments
to address it virtually impossible. I know you're probably very
tired of hearing economists like me come here to lecture you on
numbers you already know. I'll do my best not to do that and
instead use my testimony to make three somewhat different
points.
First, I will tell you a story. Takes place in the not too
distance future. It starts with yet another major recession, a
financial crisis where the federal government feels compelled
to intervene to recapitalize banks or stimulate the economy.
But unlike 2008 or 2020, the sharp increase in federal debt
proves unpalatable to domestic and global investors who balk at
the idea of financing it. The onset of our fiscal reckoning
will be very sudden. Government debt yields will jump more than
2 percent in the first few weeks. Mortgage rates will increase
even more, reflecting significantly higher risk premium.
The Federal Reserve's attempt to stabilize the bond market
through extensive bond buying will undermine confidence in its
inflating-fighting commitment and will backfire badly. The
dollar is going to fall 10 percent on impact and more than 20
percent in the following years. It will never again regain
reserve currency status. More disturbingly, the Treasury is
forced to adopt significant deficit reduction measures to
restore any confidence in the U.S. bond market.
This will further devastate our economy, compounding the
decline in projected tax revenues, undermining our commitments
to social programs and public investments. And an aging and
discouraged labor force will permanently disengage from work
and our economy will experience a decade-long stagnation.
I can see this very clearly in my head. I have seen it
before many times elsewhere in the world and in cities such as
New York and Detroit. I just can't tell you when it will take
place. It might be after 2040. It could be closer to 2030 or it
could be as soon as next year, but its consequences will be
severe and leave lasting and probably irreversible scars on our
economy and society.
Second, changing this future is not that difficult, but you
must act now. I estimate that all that is required is a fiscal
adjustment in the order of 400 to $450 billion or 1.5 percent
to GDP possibly spread over two or three years to mitigate its
impact on the economy. That would still leave room for the
budget deficit of around one trillion dollars or so. That is
hardly a radical request. It's just a plea for basic fiscal
responsibility. But wait another 10 years and the required cuts
will be twice as painful and the trillion dollars or so
committed to the access debt services over the coming decade
will no longer be available to fund Medicare benefits, national
defense, or bring investments.
Third, the window for our fiscal correction is closing a
lot more quickly than you think. Interest rates are expected to
be much higher in the coming decade, even without full-fledged
crisis. The post-2000 global savings glut is morphing quickly
into a mega investment cycle that will create significant
upward pressure on real interest rates. The ongoing transports,
automation, Artificial Intelligence, green energy, together
with an urgency to build a more resilient global supply chain
all point to new investments on an unprecedented scale.
Our own Wharton budget model forecasts an increase in real
interest rates of more than 3 percent over the next 10 years
and that might prove too conservative. But even under the most
optimistic projections, the cost of serving existing debt
becomes unbearable around 2040, 2045 at the very latest with
higher interest rates creating a relentless spiral that greatly
compounds our fiscal challenges. Thank you for your time, Mr.
Chairman.
Chairman Whitehouse. Thank you, Dr. Gomes. Mr. Walter.
STATEMENT OF SCOTT WALTER, PRESIDENT, CAPITAL RESEARCH CENTER
\7\
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\7\ Prepared statement of Mr. Walter appears in the appendix on
page 63.
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Mr. Walter. Chairman Whitehouse, Ranking Member Grassley,
distinguished members of the Committee, thank you for the honor
of testifying. Like the rest of the panel and most Committee
members, I have no expertise in climate science, but I do have
expertise in political operations that camouflage themselves as
grassroots groups while quietly exploiting complicated funding
streams enriched by billionaires. Some people call this dark
money.
The phenomenon often appears in environmental debates,
including pressure groups that claim to represent outdoor
recreation interests, but receive cash from billionaires and
other elite political operatives for crude political purposes.
Take Patagonia, whose owners donated billions in company stock
to a series of 501(c)(4) or dark money groups. Initial reports
said the money would go only to save the planet, but even The
New York Times, fooled at first, investigated and found monies
going to political machinations like saving the seats of the
majority's congressional delegation and pushing non-
environmental issues like abortion.
This Patagonian network of dark money in nonprofits already
has a Federal Election Commission (FEC) complaint because it
appears to have falsified the actual sources of its
contributions to the Senate Majority PAC and others. Now,
consider an environmentalist group that's received Patagonia
funding, Protect our Winters (POW). Protect our Winters claims
it's just, ``help[ing] passionate outdoor people protect the
places and experiences they love,'' but POW also cares about
the banal indoor recreation of politics, such as helping elect
Democrats to Congress and shilling for the partisan Inflation
Reduction Act.
POW has a (c)(4) dark money arm that gives 100 percent,
cycle after cycle, to elect Democrats. POW's (c)(3) arm
receives support from ordinary outdoor enthusiasts, but also
from notorious political actors. Those include a nonprofit in
Arabella Advisors network, the biggest dark money network on
Earth, which takes in billions every election cycle, including
large sums from a foreign donor, yet, oddly goes unmentioned by
Congress's fiercest dark money hawks. POW also receives money
from the Tides Foundation, a donor-advised fund provider and
from the David Rockefeller Fund, which also donates to the
Tides and Arabella networks.
POW helps corral into political campaigns trade
associations that should know better, including the National
Ski Areas Association. The Association's ties to POW appear in
its climate challenge reports, which require all climate
challengers to do such things as endorse letters from groups
like POW, Citizens Climate Lobby, and We are Still In. We are
Still In is an environmentalist pressure group underwritten by
left-wing billionaire Michael Bloomberg, while Citizens Climate
Lobby has received hundreds of thousands of dollars from Enron
billionaire John Arnold, as well as funding from Arabella.
Groups like POW are so compromised politically that they
never mention powerful threats to outdoor recreation from their
radical environmentalist allies. Obviously, for the foreseeable
future, outdoor recreation absolutely depends on inexpensive
transportation for ordinary Americans. That means fossil fuels
for cars, trucks, boats, motorcycles, and planes, and it means
roads and parking. Just consider what outdoor trade groups say
and the Biden Administration brags about.
The Outdoor Recreation Roundtable's president says, ``We
have the best public lands, waters, and outdoor businesses in
the world right here in the United States, but if Americans
can't access them with sound roads . . . then we're missing out
on an economic opportunity and undermining our American outdoor
heritage.'' I think she expects those roads to be traveled by
people who aren't rich enough to own Teslas.
Then there's the Biden Administration bragging that its
National Parks and Public Lands Legacy Restoration Fund will
``increase visitor access by restoring and repairing roads . .
. and parking areas.'' After all, how many hikers can reach
Yellowstone without the use of jet fuel or gasoline? How many
skiers visit Aspen or Park City without flying on a plane?
Ending jet travel and sales of gasoline or just hiking their
costs would devastate outdoor recreation, which means a lot of
environmental extremist groups pose serious threats to outdoor
recreation.
Just last year, the Sierra Club's magazine ran a long
article that began by lionizing a man who hasn't ridden a plane
in five years. It ended with hopes that planes will disappear
in a few decades. Jet travel is also denounced by groups like
Stay Grounded and Flight Free USA. In the world they and their
donors fight for, how can an Aspen ski resort or a fishing
outfitter on Montana's Black Foot River survive?
More threats come from the Environmental, Social, and
Governance (ESG) movement's efforts to debank all fossil-fuel
related companies. If this movement and its rich leaders like
Larry Fink have their way, an ordinary American who depends on
a gas-powered car for transport will never drive to Yosemite
and no fisherman will travel in a gas-powered boat across the
beautiful Tennessee lakes of my childhood. These threats to
outdoor recreation deserve their own hearing. Thank you.
Chairman Whitehouse. Dr. Gomes, do you support a price on
carbon emissions?
Dr. Gomes. It depends on the purpose at this stage, but I
would prefer regulatory intervention at this point. I think
you've done--the Inflation Reduction Act (IRA) made a lot of
progress in addressing climate change. I think at this stage I
would ask the question of why you want a carbon tax.
Chairman Whitehouse. Well, let's say it would produce
revenues to address the problem that you testified about. It
would produce considerable revenue, would it not?
Dr. Gomes. Depends on how it's set up, but certainly has
the potential. Cap and Trade could do the same thing.
Chairman Whitehouse. Yes.
Dr. Gomes. I think those are good solutions in theory.
Chairman Whitehouse. They're consistent with economic
market theory; is that correct, all the way back to Milton
Friedman putting a price on pollution?
Dr. Gomes. I strongly prefer consumption taxes to income
taxes. Absolutely.
Chairman Whitehouse. And you would consider a pollution fee
a consumption tax.
Dr. Gomes. Absolutely.
Chairman Whitehouse. Okay. So, you support----
Dr. Gomes. It wouldn't be my favorite solution. I prefer
Cap and Trade, for sure or regulatory interventions, but
absolutely, yes.
Chairman Whitehouse. Okay. And the effect of that would be
to generate revenue and then you could determine where the
revenue went, but presumably you could lower debt and deficits.
Correct?
Dr. Gomes. Or you could reduce distortionary income taxes,
or you could increase funding----
Chairman Whitehouse. You could swap it for other taxes.
Dr. Gomes. You could do various things. Yes.
Chairman Whitehouse. And it would be a better tax than
other ones in terms of the choices that the public makes.
Dr. Gomes. I would say, in theory, yes. I haven't seen a
study in recent years that just goes through the numbers and
assesses that.
Chairman Whitehouse. The ways just screw up the details,
but in theory, it should do that.
Dr. Gomes. In theory, it should work much better.
Chairman Whitehouse. And it would reduce pollution for
obvious reasons.
Dr. Gomes. Again, I have not seen a study on that.
Chairman Whitehouse. Right. I mean that's the whole purpose
of----
Dr. Gomes. I would assume so.
Chairman Whitehouse. It would be fair to assume that if you
put a fee or a penalty on carbon emissions that that would have
the effect of reducing carbon emissions.
Dr. Gomes. I would strongly prefer that to the type of
industrial policy of IRA.
Chairman Whitehouse. Yes, but the IRA has done good in
terms of addressing climate change. You support that, at least,
quoting your earlier statement.
Dr. Gomes. From an economic standpoint, as an expert
economist, I'm not entirely sure. I think the data is very
preliminary. I think the cost of the IRA is certainly being
projected to be much higher than what we originally assessed,
or CBO originally assessed, so I can't tell you that it makes
economic sense. From a climate expert, I'm not an expert on
that.
Chairman Whitehouse. Are you familiar with the Deloitte
study that estimates a $200 trillion swing between now and
2070, depending on whether or not we get climate policies
right. The cost of doing nothing will total $178 trillion
between now and 2070, whereas decarbonizing to reach net zero
could grow the global economy by $43 trillion. The difference
being 178 plus 43 equals, what, 221.
Dr. Gomes. I'm not familiar. The numbers seem implausibly
large to me. I suspect that's also global.
Chairman Whitehouse. Well, we'll send it to you. You can
comment on that. Ms. McKenney, the New Hampshire statewide
comprehensive outdoor recreation plan was just developed. What
does it tell us about economic costs and what climate change
portends for the outdoor recreation economy in New Hampshire?
Ms. McKenney. Yes, thank you, Senator. So, New Hampshire
just underwent our statewide comprehensive outdoor recreation
plan. It was led by the New Hampshire State Parks Department
and over 300 outdoor recreation providers were interviewed on
impacts from five different climate areas and those impact
areas were winter, summer, water and wildlife, forest, and
extreme weather. Seventy-eight percent reported loss of outdoor
recreation access. Seventy-five percent reported negative
travel impacts. And operational impacts were reported across
planning, maintenance, finances, staffing, safety, visitor use
management, and communication.
The most significant climate operational impacts in the
study report 80 percent on maintenance, routine, preventive,
and corrective. Seventy-four percent on finances, revenue,
operating costs, capital investments, and bids. And 70 percent
on planning, things like program offerings, marketing, and
facility design.
Chairman Whitehouse. And Ms. Hutcheson, you mentioned
something that I put a mental asterisk on in your testimony,
which is the Nonprofit Crisis Hotline serving the professional
guide community. What is that about?
Ms. Hutcheson. I know. We're dealing with something that
our guides are referring to as eco grief in the outdoor guiding
community. And there's a nonprofit organization called the Red
Side Foundation. We kind of have adopted from Idaho over in
Montana because we saw that Idaho had this nonprofit set up and
they've come over to set it up in Montana now as well. And what
it is, is it's a crisis hotline for guides, any guides in the
outdoor professional network and they call it initially and get
some counseling and then get set up for long-term counseling
resources. And it's free and we, at my company, have now
increased our counseling opportunities to further that
counseling that our guides may need after those sessions run
out from the Red Side Foundation. And so that's the added
corporate expense at our company is we're offering that to
guides for free.
And the reason that guides are calling the number and
getting those resources is because when we're sitting here in
this room, I feel like it's the perfect climate-controlled
environment and your office here. And then, if you could just
imagine suddenly, it's on fire and then it's flooded and then
it's full of rock sand then it's completely dry and then your
skin feels like it's falling off and then it's pouring rain and
then it's super hot and then it's super cold. And then suddenly
your stapler doesn't have any staples in it. The staples would
be fish in our situation. So, this is kind of what our guides
are dealing with every single day throughout their summer
months and that's just kind of that physical discomfort that
they're experiencing out on the water.
The psychological discomfort comes from the fact that we
have people's lives in our hands, very literally. Like we're
taking people down the river and we're, on top of that, trying
to give them an exceptional experience and take care of them
and have them enjoy their time there too. They're also asking
us these really tough questions in the midst of all this. Why
are these things happening? And so guides are needing to now
kind of be a counselor for them and we're not qualified to do
that. So, they're saying I will try to find out for you. I will
help you get these resources. I will give you information. And
then they need to go and talk to somebody about, you know, best
ways to get through their day that way.
The number one thing that counselors at the Red Side
Foundation tell me that guides struggle with is transition. So,
in your regular job, a seasonal, outdoor recreation job,
there's a big transition after your season ends and that can be
really challenging. You lose your team, working together,
eating together, camping together as a team all summer long and
then suddenly you lose that team. Now, those guides are going
out into another challenging outdoor recreation environment
like the ski industry.
So, now they're going out of the river and then into the
mountains where they're finding additional outdoor recreation
challenges that are because of this unstable environment. So,
it's a year-round kind of stress for them where they're
constantly transitioning. The financial transition is extremely
challenging for our guides because they don't know if they're
going to have a job next summer. They're traveling around from
river to river, from mountain to mountain. They just don't have
stability within their jobs and that part, not knowing where
your money is going to be is really tough.
We had guides last summer who had to leave early because we
ran out of water, and they just weren't getting the trips
because we had so many guides and not enough water. And that
was really tough for them as well. So, seeing them go and
trying to get them to come back and me saying I'm doing the
best that I can to try to talk to our elected leadership to see
what we can do for you is why I'm here.
Chairman Whitehouse. Not to mention that they love what
they do.
Ms. Hutcheson. They love it.
Chairman Whitehouse. Senator Grassley. Senator Kennedy.
STATEMENT OF SENATOR KENNEDY
Senator Kennedy. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman and Mr.
Vice Chairman. Mr. Schumacher, welcome. Who invited you here
today?
Mr. Schumacher. I came with Protect Our Winters.
Senator Kennedy. Right. But you're here on behalf of the
Democrats or the Republicans.
Mr. Schumacher. I'm here on behalf of the outdoor
enthusiasts around America.
Senator Kennedy. Okay. You were contacted by Senator
Whitehouse's staff?
Mr. Schumacher. I personally came with Protect Our Winters,
so I don't know how that went exactly.
Senator Kennedy. What is carbon dioxide?
Mr. Schumacher. I went to high school, but that's--carbon
dioxide is a gas.
Senator Kennedy. Okay.
Mr. Schumacher. I'm not a professional to talk about carbon
dioxide so much.
Senator Kennedy. Well, you want us to abolish it, right?
Mr. Schumacher. No, I--there's always going to be carbon
dioxide.
Senator Kennedy. Right. So, what is it you want us to do?
Mr. Schumacher. I----
Senator Kennedy. Let me back up because I want to--I mean
you're here as an expert. Tell me more about what carbon
dioxide is.
Mr. Schumacher. I'm here as an expert cross-country skier
who sees the changes in my winters and the landscape that I
live in, in Alaska. And so, carbon dioxide is what I see it as
is, you know, it's a gas that exists in our atmosphere.
Senator Kennedy. Is it the major part of our atmosphere?
Mr. Schumacher. It's a huge part of our atmosphere. Yes.
Senator Kennedy. It's actually a very small part of our
atmosphere.
Mr. Schumacher. Well, okay. I don't know. What are you
asking specifically?
Senator Kennedy. Well, you said we need to reduce carbon
dioxide emissions. I'd like to know first if you know what it
is. You want us to abolish fossil fuels?
Mr. Schumacher. I never said that.
Senator Kennedy. You never have said that?
Mr. Schumacher. No.
Senator Kennedy. What'd you think we ought to do with
fossil fuels?
Mr. Schumacher. What would we do with fossil fuels?
Senator Kennedy. Yeah. Should we make any changes?
Mr. Schumacher. I would like to see a decrease in the use
of fossil fuels. I think there's a possibility to use more
electric generation.
Senator Kennedy. Over what period of time, 10 years, 50
years, 100 years?
Mr. Schumacher. That's not--I would like to see it come as
fast as possible while continuing----
Senator Kennedy. How fast?
Mr. Schumacher. Sorry?
Senator Kennedy. How fast?
Mr. Schumacher. I don't have an answer for that.
Senator Kennedy. You don't know?
Mr. Schumacher. No.
Senator Kennedy. How much will it cost for us to become
carbon neutral in the United States by 2050?
Mr. Schumacher. I'm not a professional on that. I don't
have an answer.
Senator Kennedy. You don't have any idea?
Mr. Schumacher. No.
Senator Kennedy. You just think we ought to spend the
money?
Mr. Schumacher. I'm not an economist.
Senator Kennedy. Yeah, but it's going to cost money. You
realize that.
Mr. Schumacher. Yeah, but we've also talked about the
tradeoff of what the cost of climate change as emergencies will
cost in the future also.
Senator Kennedy. Right. But it's going to cost trillions of
dollars to become carbon neutral by 2050, right?
Mr. Schumacher. I don't know.
Senator Kennedy. You don't know. You just think we ought to
do it.
Mr. Schumacher. I don't have a great answer for you, but I
think----
Senator Kennedy. If we spent those trillions of dollars and
became carbon neutral by 2050 in the United States, which you
advocate--how much would it reduce world temperatures?
Mr. Schumacher. I don't have an answer for that.
Senator Kennedy. You don't know?
Mr. Schumacher. No.
Senator Kennedy. You just think we ought to spend the money
and then see what happens?
Mr. Schumacher. As an athlete, I think if we spend that
money and invest in our future, hopefully, those temperatures
stop rising and maybe the snow, at least, stabilizes where it
is for me, but yeah, I don't think anyone knows for sure. I
don't know anyway.
Senator Kennedy. Well, when my colleagues invite witnesses
to come to us to tell us--advise us on passing legislation, I
always check out the background of our witnesses because I like
to know who I'm talking to. I checked yours out, Mr.
Schumacher, and I want to be sure I understand it as I evaluate
your testimony. On June 8, 2020, you tweeted--I'm going to
quote. ``The War on Drugs was intentionally created to
incarcerate Black people en masse.'' The War on Drugs, you
said, was intentionally created to incarcerate Black people en
masse. Who intentionally created the War on Drugs to put Black
people in jail. Who were you talking about?
Mr. Schumacher. I don't remember typing that.
Senator Kennedy. You don't?
Mr. Schumacher. No.
Senator Kennedy. It's on your Twitter feed.
Mr. Schumacher. Maybe a retweet. I don't know. I haven't
used that in a while.
Senator Kennedy. Well, even if it's a retweet, it shows
your support, right?
Mr. Schumacher. Yeah, maybe. But it's not the topic of this
conversation.
Senator Kennedy. Right. Right. But it has to do with you're
here giving us advice and I just kinda like to know a little
bit more about your point of view.
Mr. Schumacher. Yeah, I mean, I'm here as an athlete giving
you my story and what I've seen in my view.
Senator Kennedy. On August 27th of 2020, you tweeted this.
I'm going to quote. ``Police are paid with taxpayer dollars. If
they are not answerable to us, we can demand new service and
that's what this is. Abolish the police in favor of that new
service.'' You think we ought to abolish the police, do you?
Mr. Schumacher. Again, not the topic I'm here to talk about
today.
Senator Kennedy. I know. But you tweeted it. Do you think
we ought to abolish the police?
Mr. Schumacher. That's not what I'm here to talk about.
Senator Kennedy. Should we do that before or after we get
rid of fossil fuel?
Mr. Schumacher. I'm not going to address that.
Senator Kennedy. You don't want to address it. Okay. Let me
ask you about one more of your tweets. On August 26th, 2020,
you tweeted--there's a picture. I'm not going to describe the
picture, but you said--your words, not mine. It's on your
twitter feed. ``This is what systemic racism looks like. The
Los Angeles Police Department is literally policing only the
Black Lives Matters side.'' What's you mean by that?
Mr. Schumacher. This is still off topic.
Senator Kennedy. No, it's not. You're here as an expert
telling us--advising us and I'm asking you about your
background.
Mr. Schumacher. I'm here as an athlete to talk about the
effects of climate change on my sport.
Senator Kennedy. Okay. Let's go back--well, I'm almost out
of time.
Chairman Whitehouse. You're well out of time and we have
other senators waiting, so just wrap up when you have a moment.
Senator Kennedy. All right. Thank you all for your
testimony.
Chairman Whitehouse. Senator Grassley.
Senator Grassley. Dr. Gomes, you indicated your concern
about a coming fiscal crisis, particularly triggered by the
loss of market confidence because of the national debt, so you
urged fiscal responsibility. Do you believe excessive federal
spending or climate change is a greater economic concern for
our committee to address?
Dr. Gomes. At this moment, I believe the fiscal concerns
are more important and more urgent. I will take issue with a
couple of things that Senator Whitehouse said, if I may. I
think there is no question climate change is incredibly
disruptive. It's costly. There is a risk, a risk of impending
disaster. I agree with that, but I think you can--if you
believe that, I think you can be proud that you've taken plenty
of action already to address it. I think the budget crisis is
far more pressing and I think you're greatly underestimating
the damage that that will do. And I think that if we have a
budget crisis, you will not have the ability to address climate
change no matter how much you cared about it. And I strongly
believe that is the most pressing existential threat to our
economy.
Senator Grassley. Also to you, Chairman Powell said this,
``It is well past time we all have an adult conversation about
fiscal responsibility.'' What would that adult conversation
entail and what and when should we be having that?
Dr. Gomes. You should have it now. I'm not an expert in
Washington's way of doing business, but I can understand the
pain of the sort of adjustment that I'm asking for. I realize
both parties, both of you, have to come together and have some
sort of agreement. I just think that's the reality of it. But
there's no question. You look at the trend lines, the growth of
entitlements is unsustainable. I think certainly the tax
revenues could go up a couple of points. I think there's room
for that, but you look at just the latest proposal of the
President and our own simulations from the Wharton budget
model, there's just not enough revenue there to address the
fiscal crisis. There just isn't, unless you're willing to
consider across the board increases in taxes and they're, by
law, supposed to go up December 31st, 2025 anyway. There just
isn't enough revenue in the proposals to stop this. I think you
need to deal with the entitlement issues. You need to think
about it, and you need to come together, I would say, urge you
to come together and find a solution that addresses this
problem. You may not have 10 years.
We had two warnings in the last 18 months. And one that I
would point out to you is the United Kingdom (UK) experience in
the fall of 2022, in the space of five days. One bad budget for
a country that had a debt to GDP ratio below what it is now is
the U.S., a country that had a lot of credibility, not the same
as the U.S., experienced a change in interest rates of 4
percent, almost 5 percent in five days. That just happened
overnight, essentially, five days. That was just a sudden loss
of confidence in fiscal policy.
That could happen next year. That could happen next year.
If it does happen, you will not have the resources to do any of
the things we're talking about here. You might not even have
the resources to pursue IRA, which is going to cost us another
$700 billion or so over the next 10 years.
Senator Grassley. Mr. Walter, we've heard testimony from
multiple witnesses through 15 hearings that we've held on this
subject. Your testimony highlights the strength of the American
outdoor recreation economy. What do you think is at the core of
this testimony and how does dark money compare between left-
leaning causes and right-leaning?
Mr. Walter. Well, the dark money numbers are very clear for
the 2018 cycle, 2020 cycle, 2022 cycle. In all cases, the left
and the Democratic Party did far better. And Open Secrets,
which is the best source on this sort of thing and is not a
conservative source, just recently published preliminary
numbers for the '24 cycle, which continue to show left-wing
Democrat dominance in dark money.
Senator Grassley. I'll submit my other questions for answer
in writing.
Chairman Whitehouse. Great. Thank you very much. Let me
thank the witnesses for coming in. You bring both the voice of
a trillion dollar industry here and also the voice of people
who still live in the outdoors and are experiencing the changes
that fossil fuel pollution is wreaking on our world in a very
first-hand and immediate way. There is something quite painful
about going back to a place you have loved and finding it
changed for the worse with nothing that you can do about it
because forces beyond your control are doing it grievous
damage.
So, thank you for coming here to push back a little bit on
those forces beyond your control. Thank you for providing
testimony relevant to that subject and I would simply note with
respect to Dr. Gomes comment back to me during his Question &
Answer with our wonderful Ranking Member, that actually a
significant price on carbon emissions would be a twofer. We
actually could do something about climate change in a big way
in an environment in which we're trying to bring down debt and
deficit. The bill that I've drafted is two trillion dollars
over 10 years. That's a very significant piece of revenue. The
problem is that people just don't want to do that, but the
solution is right in front of us and it both addresses the debt
and the deficit size and the climate risk that we've heard such
significant expert testimony from people like chairmen of
sovereign banks and major insurance company chief executives
and the chief economist of Freddie Mac, the top advisors
through Milliman of the insurance industry. So again, I urge
that we look at the solutions that are right in front of us and
get ahead of this problem before it's too late.
The record will remain open for 24 hours for anybody who
wants to ask you guys a question. We will get those right out
to you, and we would ask that you turn around answers, if you
get those questions, within a week so that we can circulate
them through the Committee. And with all of that, the hearing
is concluded.
[Whereupon, at 11:08 a.m., Wednesday, March 20, 2024, the
hearing was adjourned.]
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