[Senate Hearing 118-258]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]


                                                       S.Hrg. 118-258

                   RECREATION AT RISK: THE NATURE OF
                             CLIMATE COSTS

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                              BEFORE THE

                        COMMITTEE ON THE BUDGET
                          UNITED STATES SENATE

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                             SECOND SESSION

                               ----------                              

                             March 20, 2024

                               ----------                              

           Printed for the use of the Committee on the Budget
           
[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

                               __________

                   U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE                    
55-279 PDF                  WASHINGTON : 2024                    
          
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------     

                        COMMITTEE ON THE BUDGET

               SHELDON WHITEHOUSE, Rhode Island, Chairman
PATTY MURRAY, Washington             CHARLES E. GRASSLEY, Iowa
RON WYDEN, Oregon                    MIKE CRAPO, Idaho
DEBBIE STABENOW, Michigan            LINDSEY O. GRAHAM, South Carolina
BERNARD SANDERS, Vermont             RON JOHNSON, Wisconsin
MARK R. WARNER, Virginia             MITT ROMNEY, Utah
JEFF MERKLEY, Oregon                 ROGER MARSHALL, Kansas
TIM KAINE, Virginia                  MIKE BRAUN, Indiana
CHRIS VAN HOLLEN, Maryland           JOHN KENNEDY, Louisiana
BEN RAY LUJAN, New Mexico            RICK SCOTT, Florida
ALEX PADILLA, California             MIKE LEE, Utah

                   Dan Dudis, Majority Staff Director
        Kolan Davis, Republican Staff Director and Chief Counsel
                   Mallory B. Nersesian, Chief Clerk 
                  Alexander C. Scioscia, Hearing Clerk
                           
                           
                           C O N T E N T S

                              ----------                              

                       WEDNESDAY, MARCH 20, 2024
                OPENING STATEMENTS BY COMMITTEE MEMBERS

                                                                   Page
Senator Sheldon Whitehouse, Chairman.............................     1
    Prepared Statement...........................................    23
Senator Charles E. Grassley......................................     3
    Prepared Statement...........................................    26
Senator Maggie Hassan............................................     5

                    STATEMENTS BY COMMITTEE MEMBERS

Senator John Kennedy.............................................    17

                               WITNESSES

Ms. Theresa McKenney, Director of Sustainability and Government 
  Affairs, NEMO Equipment........................................     6
    Prepared Statement...........................................    28
Ms. Hilary Hutcheson, Outfitter..................................     8
    Prepared Statement...........................................    32
Mr. Gus Schumacher, American Cross-Country Skier, Olympian.......    10
    Prepared Statement...........................................    35
Dr. Joao Gomes, Howard Butcher III Professor of Finance; 
  Professor of Economics, and Senior Vice Dean of Research, 
  Centers, and Academic Initiatives, Wharton School, University 
  of Pennsylvania................................................    11
    Prepared Statement...........................................    37
Mr. Scott Walter, President, Capital Research Center.............    13
    Prepared Statement...........................................    46

                                APPENDIX

Responses to post-hearing questions for the Record:
    Ms. McKenney.................................................    52
    Ms. Hutcheson................................................    53
    Mr. Schumacher...............................................    55
    Dr. Gomes....................................................    57
    Mr. Walter...................................................    63

 
                   RECREATION AT RISK: THE NATURE OF
                             CLIMATE COSTS

                              ----------                             

                       WEDNESDAY, MARCH 20, 2024

                                           Committee on the Budget,
                                                       U.S. Senate,
                                                    Washington, DC.
    The hearing was convened, pursuant to notice, at 10:02 
a.m., in the Dirksen Senate Office Building, Room SD-608, Hon. 
Sheldon Whitehouse, Chairman of the Committee, presiding.
    Present: Senators Whitehouse, Van Hollen, Padilla, Hassan, 
Grassley, Braun, Kennedy, and R. Scott.
    Also present: Democratic Staff: Dan Dudis, Majority Staff 
Director; Alexandra Gilliland, Climate Policy Advisor; Emily 
Caffrey, American Nuclear Society Fellow.
    Republican Staff: Chris Conlin, Deputy Staff Director; 
Krisann Pearce, General Counsel; Jordan Pakula, Professional 
Staff Member; Ryan Flynn, Staff Assistant.
    Witnesses:
    Ms. Theresa McKenney, Director of Sustainability and 
Government Affairs, NEMO Equipment
    Ms. Hilary Hutcheson, Outfitter
    Mr. Gus Schumacher, American Cross-Country Skier, Olympian
    Dr. Joao Gomes, Howard Butcher III Professor of Finance; 
Professor of Economics, and Senior Vice Dean of Research, 
Centers, and Academic Initiatives, Wharton School, University 
of Pennsylvania
    Mr. Scott Walter, President, Capital Research Center

          OPENING STATEMENT OF CHAIRMAN WHITEHOUSE \1\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

    \1\ Prepared statement of Chairman Whitehouse appears in the 
appendix on page 23.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Chairman Whitehouse. Good morning, everyone. I'm sorry for 
being a little bit late here. It's nice to have this hearing 
underway. Thanks so much for joining us. Thank you, 
particularly, to Senator Hassan, for visiting to introduce a 
New Hampshire witness. Would you like to do that right now 
first before my opening statement and be on your way. Does your 
schedule allow you to stick around for the statement?
    Senator Hassan. I am prepared to stay around for opening 
statements and then I'll do the introduction.
    Chairman Whitehouse. Okay. Super. Ranking Member Grassley, 
members of the Committee, witnesses and guests, welcome to our 
14th hearing on the economic dangers associated with climate 
change that affect the federal budget. Last week, again, one of 
my colleagues across the aisle questioned this series of 
hearings. It is a common Republican refrain. But if you've been 
listening, you've heard over and over again from highly 
credible witnesses about economy-wide threats from climate 
change.
    We have heard warnings from economists, scientists, medical 
professionals, insurance and investment executives, even a 
former Republican Senator Majority Leader. They warn of danger 
ahead. Please remember that we are operating under an agreed 
budget for both this fiscal year and next. The Fiscal 
Responsibility Act passed in June of last year with support 
from Republicans on this Committee set a two-year budget 
framework, so we have a budget through to October of 2025, so 
it makes sense to look ahead.
    And if you look at our national debt, about a third of it 
comes from emergencies. If we'd been better prepared, the 
national debt would be much less. These climate hearings have 
focused on a huge emergency bearing down on us. The fact that 
the climate emergency is one that Republicans and fossil fuel 
polluters would prefer not to talk about doesn't make it any 
less real. Facts are facts and physics is physics.
    There's a pattern here. We offer warnings, Republicans mock 
the warnings, and then the news proves the warnings true. We 
held a hearing warning about sea level rise and storm impact on 
property values driven by uninsurability and we are witnessing 
the property insurance market circling the drain in Florida. No 
insurance, no mortgage, no mortgages, very hard to sell your 
property.
    We held a hearing warning about wildfire risk and this 
month the Smokehouse Creek fire in Texas, the state's largest 
fire ever, burned more than 1.2 million acres, killing 
livestock, destroying crops, and hammering Texas's agricultural 
sector. With home insurance premiums already sky high, partly 
from climate risks, many residents didn't have homeowner's 
insurance. Again, no insurance, no mortgage, no mortgage, it's 
hard to sell your property.
    We held a hearing warning about supply chains' 
susceptibility to climate risk and we're witnessing extreme 
drought, reducing water levels in the Panama Canal so low that 
shipping is down nearly 40 percent from last year, pushing up 
prices. Recently, Fed. Chairman Jerome Powell warned that 
inflation is being driven by climate change, driving up 
insurance costs. It's climate inflation.
    We had a hearing on climate disasters and disaster costs 
and in just the last year, the United States suffered a record-
breaking 28 separate billion-dollar disasters, pushing up 
prices and burdening the budget. These mounting disasters posed 
systemic risks to our economy. For those who have not been 
paying attention, look up what a systemic risk is.
    Some of the economic hits from climate change are sector 
specific, which brings us today to the climate-related threats 
to the outdoor recreation industry. Outdoor recreation is not 
just an essential part of American culture. It's also an 
important part of our economy. $1.1 trillion in economic output 
and almost five million jobs. Each year Americans spent 
hundreds of billions of dollars exploring the outdoors, 
hunting, fishing, hiking, skiing, camping, canoeing, and 
sailing. A lot of family memories are made outdoors.
    Communities across the country count on outdoor recreation 
to attract residents and visitors, creating jobs, and economic 
development. Utah, for instance, has seen businesses locate 
there for its robust outdoor recreation opportunities and 
employees head there for that same reason. Winter sports have 
been a huge economic driver in Utah and states across the 
country, but climate change is wreaking havoc on communities 
and industries that depend on snow.
    Wisconsin got so little snow this year that the Small 
Business Administration extended disaster coverage to affected 
businesses. Ski areas across the country struggled to operate 
in warmer winters. The Teton Pass ski area in Montana was only 
open four full days this year. Hunting seasons change as 
climate change forces animals into new migratory patterns. 
Arkansas, the duck capital of the world, has seen fewer 
mallards migrate through the state. The Game and Fish 
Commission estimates that duck hunting generates $70 million in 
economic activity there each year.
    Warming streams and rivers jeopardize the fishing industry 
in the communities that rely on fishing. Montana, the 
unofficial fly-fishing capital of the United States, gets an 
estimated $900 million a year from fishing, but warming streams 
and declining trout populations are threatening local shops, 
restaurants, guides, and lodges.
    Storms also drive away tourism. 2022's torrential rains 
flooded Yellowstone National Park, destroying roads and closing 
park entrances at the height of the tourist season, depriving 
the local economy of the seasonal boon that usually carries 
them through the year.
    We've spent these hearings discussing the economic dangers 
of climate change, which are real, and which are large, but 
it's also worth remembering the losses that can't be 
quantified. The fishing place your grandfather took you where 
you can't take your granddaughter. Your glacier national park 
losing its glacier, the quiet now on lakes that once froze over 
and rang with the cheerful noise of pond hockey. Once cold 
streams now barren of trout near campsites ringed by dead trees 
killed by bark beetle, fish kills and algae fouling beaches and 
bays.
    Yes, there are huge economic stakes to ignoring climate 
change, but there is also harm to our way of life, to our 
traditions, to our family memories, to our connection to the 
land and waters, which is yet another reason why Congress must 
get serious about the carbon pollution that is costing us all 
so much.
    Chairman Whitehouse. With that, let me turn to my 
distinguished Ranking Member and then to Senator Hassan for her 
introduction.

           OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR GRASSLEY \2\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

    \2\ Prepared statement of Senator Grassley appears in the appendix 
on page 26.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Senator Grassley. Mr. Chairman, you referred to the common 
refrain of Republicans. Are you ready to hear some more of that 
common refrain?
    Chairman Whitehouse. I fully expect it, my friend. I fully 
expect it. This is not my first rodeo talking about this issue 
in this Committee.
    Senator Grassley. Okay. Last week, Senator Romney said the 
truth out loud. There is ``no work being done by this Committee 
to deal with our budget and to deal with federal spending.'' 
Senator Romney also said, ``this Committee needs to stop acting 
for the cameras and start working for the American people to 
finally deal with the massive deficit and debt that we have.'' 
That sounds kind of reasonable to me.
    I've been saying this for 15 climate change hearings and 
counting. Today, rather than working on a budget to curb 
spending we're discussing the impact of climate change on 
outdoor recreation. Democrats pretend that the Fiscal 
Responsibility Act included a budget for 2024 and '25. In fact, 
Congress is operating under a so-called deeming resolution 
that's supposed to be a temporary placeholder until we complete 
a real budget.
    It's no substitute for a serious fiscal plan based on 
bipartisan input that incorporates new tools to enforce fiscal 
discipline. This Committee has the sole responsibility to 
produce such a budget. If we don't, no other committee will. 
The same can't be said on the subject of outdoor recreation. 
Senator Barrasso and Manchin are working diligently together to 
pass a bipartisan outdoor recreation legislation at the Energy 
and Natural Resources Committee. Senator Ernst and Shaheen held 
a similar small business hearing on outdoor recreation a few 
months back.
    I know Iowans enjoy outdoor recreation as much as anyone, 
whether it's hunting, fishing, hiking, camping, boating, Iowa 
has plenty to offer. Not to brag, Mr. Chairman, but Iowa, in 
fact, has three times as many ski areas as Rhode Island. We 
have three. You have one outdoor----
    Chairman Whitehouse. Low bar.
    Senator Hassan. New Hampshire might be able to weigh in 
here.
    Senator Grassley. Outdoor recreation plays an important 
role in our national economy. In 2022, outdoor recreation 
contributed $564 billion to our Gross Domestic Product (GDP), 
but this Committee has bigger fish to fry. Last year interest 
alone on the national debt cost taxpayers $659 billion and the 
interest costs are projected to exceed one trillion within two 
years. It's time that we stopped ignoring the Congressional 
Budget Office's (CBO) repeated warnings about our unsustainable 
debt and the serious risks it poses to our economy.
    Yes, climate change also poses a risk to our economy, but 
its risks to outdoor recreation is far from clear. Peer-
reviewed research in this area is sparse. To the extent it 
exists, several studies suggest it could be a boon for many 
parts of the industry. Not even President Biden's U.S. 
Department of Commerce has published any data or research 
indicating impending turmoil in the outdoor recreation economy 
due to the climate change.
    Now, this hearing may add evidence where the Department of 
Commerce is short. I hope so. My Democratic friends on this 
Committee consistently complain about an alleged lack of 
bipartisanship when it comes to climate policy, but then they 
use climate change smoke and mirrors to ignore our immediate 
responsibilities as legislators. It's no wonder Americans are 
fed up with Washington. It's also no wonder participation at 
these climate hearings has faded.
    Senator Romney and I both believe climate change is a 
significant problem, but neither of us can support this agenda 
for the Budget Committee. Our constituents deserve a Budget 
Committee that focuses on the budget. That's why I'm excited to 
welcome Professor Gomes from Wharton School of the University 
of Pennsylvania. I'm going to be introducing him in a minute, 
so I will end my statement here at this point. I am eager to 
hear how climate change and outdoor recreation groups use some 
of their resources to bolster this agenda that you've laid out 
for us, Mr. Chairman.
    Chairman Whitehouse. Thank you very much, Senator Grassley. 
We have five witnesses today, including a witness from New 
Hampshire, who will be introduced by Senator Hassan. I want to 
thank Ms. Theresa McKinney for being here and turn to Senator 
Hassan for the introduction.

                  STATEMENT OF SENATOR HASSAN

    Senator Hassan. Thank you very much Chair Whitehouse and 
Senator Grassley and to my colleagues on the Committee. I am 
really pleased and honored to be here today to introduce 
Theresa McKinney, who is the Director of Sustainability and 
Government Affairs at NEMO Equipment, an innovative outdoor 
gear brand based in Dover, New Hampshire.
    Theresa has strong expertise in developing and selling 
sustainable goods and I know that the Committee will benefit 
greatly from hearing from her today. NEMO's camping and outdoor 
gear makes it easier to enjoy the natural beauty in New 
Hampshire and across the world. NEMO's founder, Cam Brensinger, 
started the company in 2002 after camping on Mount Washington, 
New Hampshire and the Northeast's highest peak, which is known 
as, I think you know, Senator Whitehouse, for its erratic and 
dramatic weather. And Cam Brensinger realized that existing 
tent designs needed to be improved.
    He invented a low-pressure, inflatable structure for 
backpacking tents that could withstand the higher and highest 
winds. That innovation became the basis for the company's first 
product line. Over the years, NEMO has continued to develop new 
designs and has earned accolades for its products.
    I most recently visited NEMO in January to tour its 
facility in Dover. It was clear from my visit that 
sustainability and advocacy for people and the planet are 
central to NEMO's mission. The company not only depends on a 
thriving outdoor recreation economy, but also on businesses, 
communities, and governments working together to support 
innovation and protect outdoor spaces for future generations.
    And I would be remiss if I didn't mention NEMO's recent 
contribution of sleeping bags to the New Hampshire Humanitarian 
Aid group called Common Man for Ukraine. This gear will help 
Ukrainian orphans and displaced families survive the war. So, 
it is a true honor to introduce NEMO today. Thank you, Theresa, 
for being here to share NEMO's insights with this Committee and 
for proudly representing the values that Granite Staters live 
every day. With that, I'll turn it back to you, Chair 
Whitehouse. Thank you.
    Chairman Whitehouse. Thank you, Senator. Our next witness 
is Ms. Hilary Hutcheson. Ms. Hutcheson has fly fished nearly 
all her life. I have walked trout streams disentangling my line 
from bushes and trying to undo wind knots. I never managed to 
get much actual fishing done. She currently guides at Glacier 
Anglers and owns and runs a fly shop, Larry's Fly and Supply, 
in her hometown of Columbia Falls, Montana. We welcome her 
extensive experience on the water and in Montana's streams.
    Next, we have Mr. Gus Schumacher, an American cross-country 
skier and Olympian, who last month became the first American 
man to win a World Cup Cross Country Skiing distance event in 
40 years. Mr. Schumacher hails from Wisconsin, grew up in 
Alaska, and travels the world to compete in skiing events. He 
brings us the perspective from the snow sports industry.
    I now turn to my friend, Senator Grassley, to introduce the 
Republican selected witnesses.
    Senator Grassley. Dr. Joao Gomes is a professor of finance 
and economics and Senior Vice Dean, Research Centers and 
Academic Initiatives at Wharton School, University of 
Pennsylvania. He is also a Visiting Scholar for the U.S. 
Federal Reserve. His expertise is on the role of financial 
markets to the macro economy.
    We'll hear also from Mr. Scott Walter, President of Capital 
Research Center. He served as special assistant to the 
President of the United States for Domestic Policy. He was also 
vice president at the Philanthropic Roundtable. Walter has 
written for and been quoted in the New York Times, Washington 
Post, Wall Street Journal, and Chronical of Philanthropy. Thank 
you for coming.
    Chairman Whitehouse. Ms. McKinney, you are first up. Thank 
you so much for being here. You have five minutes to deliver 
your testimony and your full statement will be made a part of 
the record, as will be the case for all of the witnesses. 
Please proceed.

 STATEMENT OF THERESA MCKENNEY, DIRECTOR OF SUSTAINABILITY AND 
             GOVERNMENT AFFAIRS, NEMO EQUIPMENT \3\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

    \3\ Prepared statement of Ms. McKenney appears in the appendix on 
page 28.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Ms. McKenney. Thank you. Thank you, Senator Hassan, Chair 
Whitehouse, Ranking Member Grassley, and members of the 
Committee. Thank you for the opportunity to testify today on 
climate-related costs in the outdoor recreation sector. It is 
an honor to be here. My name is Theresa McKinney and I'm the 
Director of Sustainability and Government Affairs at NEMO 
Equipment, an independent, family-owned camping gear brand 
based in Dover, New Hampshire.
    NEMO was founded in 2002 by our CEO, Cam Brensinger, an 
avid climber and mountaineer, Cam designed our first tent after 
a rough night winter camping on New Hampshire's tallest peak. 
We filed our first patent over 20 years ago and have since 
designed innovative tents, sleeping bags, sleeping pads, camp 
furniture, and carry systems.
    While our team of 50 is small, we have an outsized impact. 
According to 2023 industry sale through data, NEMO is the 
number one bestselling brand of camping gear in U.S. specialty 
outdoor retail. NEMO is part of the outdoor recreation economy. 
Outdoor recreation generated $1.1 trillion in economic output 
in 2022, contributing more than mining, utilities, and 
agriculture to U.S. GDP.
    According to the latest Bureau of Economic Analysis data, 
the outdoor recreation economy grew 2.5 times faster than the 
U.S. economy and generated five million jobs. More Americans 
are participating in outdoor recreation than ever. The outdoor 
recreation participant base has grown each of the last eight 
years. New Hampshire's own White Mountain National Forest 
reported a 40 percent increase in outdoor recreation between 
2015 and 2021.
    Although outdoor recreation has been surging, NEMO faces 
challenges. Our continued success is threatened by a long list 
of global issues, including high interest rates, a cautious 
consumer market, and trade uncertainties. Running a business 
will always come with challenges, but we believe that the 
climate crisis is the greatest threat to NEMO's longevity and 
to the future of outdoor recreation in America.
    Along with the risk to human lives and livelihoods, climate 
change poses a real and imminent threat to NEMO's business. 
Without safe, accessible and enjoyable places to recreate, 
there is no longer a need for our gear. We are already feeling 
the negative impacts of extreme weather and climate change on 
our state's outdoor economy. Outdoor recreation accounts for 
3.2 percent of New Hampshire's GDP and grew 18.1 percent 
between 2021 and 2022.
    Small businesses are the backbone of New Hampshire's 
outdoor industry, including guides, outfitters, retailers, and 
campground operators. Many of these businesses are based in 
rural areas and are seasonal. The success of small businesses 
in our industry depends on stable, predictable weather and 
seasons.
    The summer of 2023 was the wettest on record in New 
Hampshire with 21 inches of rainfall, negatively impacting the 
camping season. New Hampshire issued 38 flash flood warnings 
during the month of July alone. From 1980 to today, New 
Hampshire has experienced 21 separate billion-dollar weather-
related disasters. Research suggests that extreme weather 
events are expected to increase in our state.
    This month New Hampshire State Parks published a statewide 
comprehensive outdoor recreation plan. As part of this process, 
over 300 local outdoor recreation providers were interviewed 
about the impact of climate change on our industry. Eighty-
seven percent of providers reported that shorter winter seasons 
impact outdoor recreation. Eighty-six percent reported damage 
to recreation infrastructure. Economic impacts were reported 
across every operational measure surveyed, including 
maintenance, finances, and planning.
    At NEMO, we felt the impacts of recent volatile weather 
through overstock issues and order cancellations from retailers 
in New England and beyond. In New Hampshire, 2023 was the third 
warmest winter on record, followed by the wettest summer on 
record, and now, in 2024, has been the warmest winter on 
record. Local retailers have their cash tied up in ski clothing 
and gear, leading to less open to buy for our spring and summer 
camping goods.
    Negative impacts of climate change are already affecting 
small businesses in the outdoor recreation economy. We do not 
only look to government to solve this problem. Businesses like 
ours that manufacture goods are contributors to this issue and 
we are ready to take responsibility for our part. In 2020, NEMO 
publicly announced a commitment to reduce our carbon intensity 
in half by 2030. Thus far, we've received a 22 percent 
reduction in emissions intensity per product.
    Businesses like NEMO are stepping up, but we'll need the 
government to support the economic resilience of the outdoor 
sector. Opportunities include passing America's Outdoor 
Recreation Act and the Explore Act bipartisan, bicameral bills 
that will provide support and flexibility to outdoor recreation 
businesses. Protection of the climate investments made in the 
Inflation Reduction Act and modernization of the Farm bill to 
support outdoor recreation access and climate resilience in 
rural communities across America.
    Thank you for the opportunity to testify today and we 
welcome the opportunity to work with Congress on this important 
issue so Americans today, tomorrow, and 50 years from now can 
enjoy time outside of the campfire, on the summit, at the 
fishing hole, or in their backyards. Thank you.
    Chairman Whitehouse. Thank you very much. Ms. Hutcheson, 
please proceed.

          STATEMENT OF HILARY HUTCHESON, OUTFITTER \4\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

    \4\ Prepared statement of Ms. Hutcheson appears in the appendix on 
page 32.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Ms. Hutcheson. Chairman Whitehouse, Ranking Member 
Grassley, and members of the Committee, I appreciate the 
opportunity to connect on the impacts of climate change on the 
outdoor recreation economy as well.
    As a full-time fly-fishing guide, outfitter, and shop owner 
near Glacier National Park, Montana, my career is one of the 
29,453 jobs directly supported by outdoor recreation in our 
state. As the outfitter of record for the largest and longest 
running commercial river company in the Northern Rockies region 
with 185 employees, including 100 river guides, I feel 
responsible for livelihoods beyond my own.
    My fellow guides and I offer an excellent experience to the 
many of the 12.5 million people who visit our state each year, 
spending $5.82 billion. More than 700,000 visitors book a 
guided trip through an outfit like mine every year in Montana. 
Water-based activities represent the largest guided trip 
sectors and guiding fishing trips bring in about $80 billion a 
year.
    We love our jobs. Unfortunately, our increasing unstable 
river office environment marked by drastic temperature 
fluctuation, wildfires, floods, droughts, wildlife stress, and 
other disruptions warrants extra attention to guides' physical 
and mental health. Something that my company recognizes as an 
essential corporate expense. There's even a nonprofit crisis 
hotline that's dedicated to professional outdoor guides in 
Montana and in Idaho with an increasing number of calls coming 
in because of environmental stressors.
    The cost of doing business should keep me up at night. It 
should keep me on my toes. So, it is my job to think about what 
is driving these new numbers and how we can work with you to 
keep it all in balance. More than three million people visit 
Glacier National Park each year to catch a glimpse of its 
diminishing glaciers and enjoy the landscape that those 
features carved. The ground of the continent stands as one of 
the planet's last relatively intact ecosystems. And I'm 
thrilled that a bucket list item for many anglers around the 
world is to connect with the wild, native west slope cutthroat 
trout in an intact ecosystem.
    Anglers are also increasingly aware of how human-caused 
climate change affects this delicate balance. Clients who spend 
money to fish with us are asking tough questions these days. 
They ask about our new normals like unseasonable rain on snow 
events that can scourer trout spawning beds. They ask why we 
run out of water so early in the season. They ask why they're 
seeing so many weekend hybrid trout. We're fortunate to have 
some of the world's top climate scientists located in our big 
outdoor classroom, so we refer to their research to explain how 
warmer water is hospitable to non-native species that can eek 
out native trout populations. We invest in extra education for 
guides who are becoming accustomed to citing scientific 
evidence.
    Today we explain why we keep trout in the water instead of 
lifting them up into the boat for photo. We explain the 
government-imposed rules called Hoot Owl regulations that 
prohibit fishing when the river is too hot. Trout mortality 
goes up drastically when they are caught and released in waters 
that are warmer than their optimal survival range.
    I think about budgets all the time. It's becoming 
increasingly challenging to budget for the season. Will we have 
dangerous high water or historically low water? Should we not 
book guests in August when thick smoke from wildfires might 
keep us off the river again? How many client trip deposits will 
we have to refund because of cancelled vacations? How many 
guides should we hire, given all this uncertainty?
    A recent report underscores the economic jeopardy posed by 
climate change, predicting the potential loss of 8,800 outdoor 
recreation jobs and a staggering $263 million in labor earnings 
by mid century in Montana alone. This includes anticipated 
declines in visitation to Glacier and Yellowstone. Something 
that helps me work through my budget concerns is my 
connectivity to the greater fishing community. I'm able to 
share best practices with my colleagues in Florida, Maine, 
Texas, Oregon, and Alaska, who are dealing with equally 
distressing challenges and who are painfully impacted by the 
deterioration of our fisheries.
    I'm encouraged by the historic ability of the federal 
government to listen to people who are the voice of the river. 
I'm fueled by the Wild and Scenic Rivers Act of 1968, which 
offers appropriate levels of federal protection to important 
watersheds. This legislation not only safeguards certain rivers 
from development, but also fosters economic vitality by 
recognizing their outstandingly remarkable values. I'm grateful 
for the bipartisan management that transcends political 
boundaries, fostering public participation, and river 
protection.
    As guides, we are told that we have the best job in the 
world. We're in the perfect place, doing the perfect thing, 
having perfect adventures, so it can feel pretty weird to point 
out to you today that it's not all perfect. But all three of my 
adult children have jobs in outdoor rec. They've been dealing 
with the impacts of climate change their entire lives. Standing 
up for rivers is a thread woven through our family structure.
    So, for my kids, who became my coworkers for the river 
professionals who are among the finest humans on Earth for our 
guests and in the face of these environmental challenges, I 
implore our leaders to prioritize decisive action on climate 
change. The future of our environment, economy, and community 
is a package deal and it is directly connected to our 
collective efforts to safeguard our planet for generations to 
come. Thank you.
    Chairman Whitehouse. Thanks, Ms. Hutcheson. Mr. Schumacher.

  STATEMENT OF GUS SCHUMACHER, AMERICAN CROSS-COUNTRY SKIER, 
                          OLYMPIAN \5\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

    \5\ Prepared statement of Mr. Schumacher appears in the appendix on 
page 35.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Mr. Schumacher. Hello. Thank you for having me here, 
Chairman Whitehouse, Ranking Member Grassley, and members of 
the Committee, for the opportunity to testify today on the 
critical issue of climate change and its impacts on outdoor 
recreation. My name is Gus Schumacher and I'm a world champion 
Noritic skier. I just finished my racing season after having 
been the third ever American male to win a World Cup race.
    I was born in Wisconsin and grew up in Anchorage, Alaska, 
where I currently live and I've spent much of my life immersed 
in the beauty and challenges of outdoor activities. I come 
before you today, not only as a professional athlete, but also 
as a concerned citizen troubled by the effects of climate 
change on our environment and the activities we cherish.
    As a skier, I've witnessed first-hand the profound 
alterations to our natural landscapes and the diminishing 
opportunities for outdoor recreation. Climate change has 
dramatically altered the conditions for winter sports, 
including Noritic skiing. Rising temperatures have led to 
shorter and more erratic weather seasons with snow cover 
becoming increasingly unreliable. The delicate balance required 
for these optimal skiing conditions, sufficient snowfall, cold 
temperatures, stable weather is being disrupted at an alarming 
rate. This unpredictably not only effects recreational 
opportunities, but also jeopardizes the economic viability of 
communities reliance on winter tourism like those Wisconsin 
communities you mentioned earlier.
    Additionally, the loss of snow-packing glaciers due to 
warming temperatures threatens the long-term viability of 
skiing regions. Glacial retreat not only diminishes the 
aesthetic appeal of our landscapes, but also impacts water 
resources vital for snowmaking which further exacerbates the 
challenges faced by ski resorts and outdoor enthusiasts. These 
environmental changes wrought by climate change have cascading 
effects on ecosystem and wildlife habitats. So, it's us and the 
wildlife that are affected, but through this and as my career 
as an Olympian, I've seen cancelled races and races that 
struggle to run.
    For example, this winter I raced in Cable, Wisconsin at the 
American Birkebeiner, which is the largest public ski race in 
the U.S., which had to run on a 10K artificial snow loop, 
unlike it's normal point-to-point 50K race, which lead to fewer 
participants and also, as I've heard from my sponsors, much 
less purchasing of skis across the country. Amid these 
challenges, though, lies an opportunity for action. As a 
nation, we have the capacity and responsibility to mitigate the 
impacts of climate change and safeguard our outdoor heritage 
for future generations.
    Investing in renewable energy, promoting sustainable land 
management practices, and supporting initiatives to reduce 
greenhouse gas emissions are critical steps in addressing the 
root causes of climate change. We must also prioritize 
adaptation measures to ensure the resilience of our communities 
and outdoor infrastructure in the face of a changing climate. 
This includes investing in snowmaking technologies, 
diversifying recreations offerings, and fostering partnerships 
between government agencies, businesses, and nonprofit 
organizations to enhance climate resilience.
    The impacts of climate change in outdoor recreation are 
undeniable and demand urgent action. I'm one of the millions 
who represent this outdoor state and its trillion-dollar value 
that contributes to a large portion of our economy. As stewards 
of the planet and custodians of our outdoor heritage, we have a 
moral imperative to confront the challenges of climate change 
head on and preserve the natural wonders that enrich our lives. 
By working together, we can build a more sustainable and 
resilient future for all. Thank you for your attention and I 
welcome any questions.
    Chairman Whitehouse. Thank you very much. Dr. Gomes. It's 
pronounced Gomes. Correct?
    Dr. Gomes. That's okay.
    Chairman Whitehouse. Thank you.

 STATEMENT OF DR. JOAO GOMES, HOWARD BUTCHER III, PROFESSOR OF 
    FINANCE; PROFESSOR OF ECONOMICS AND SENIOR VICE DEAN OF 
 RESEARCH, CENTERS, AND ACADEMIC INITIATIVES, WHARTON SCHOOL, 
                 UNIVERSITY OF PENNSYLVANIA \6\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

    \6\ Prepared statement of Dr. Gomes appears in the appendix on page 
37.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Dr. Gomes. Thank you, Senator Whitehouse, Senator Grassley, 
and members of the Committee. I am the Senior Vice Dean for 
Research at the Wharton School, but my remarks today reflect 
only my personal views.
    Climate change is unquestionably a very serious issue, but 
our rapidly darkening fiscal outlook will soon make investments 
to address it virtually impossible. I know you're probably very 
tired of hearing economists like me come here to lecture you on 
numbers you already know. I'll do my best not to do that and 
instead use my testimony to make three somewhat different 
points.
    First, I will tell you a story. Takes place in the not too 
distance future. It starts with yet another major recession, a 
financial crisis where the federal government feels compelled 
to intervene to recapitalize banks or stimulate the economy. 
But unlike 2008 or 2020, the sharp increase in federal debt 
proves unpalatable to domestic and global investors who balk at 
the idea of financing it. The onset of our fiscal reckoning 
will be very sudden. Government debt yields will jump more than 
2 percent in the first few weeks. Mortgage rates will increase 
even more, reflecting significantly higher risk premium.
    The Federal Reserve's attempt to stabilize the bond market 
through extensive bond buying will undermine confidence in its 
inflating-fighting commitment and will backfire badly. The 
dollar is going to fall 10 percent on impact and more than 20 
percent in the following years. It will never again regain 
reserve currency status. More disturbingly, the Treasury is 
forced to adopt significant deficit reduction measures to 
restore any confidence in the U.S. bond market.
    This will further devastate our economy, compounding the 
decline in projected tax revenues, undermining our commitments 
to social programs and public investments. And an aging and 
discouraged labor force will permanently disengage from work 
and our economy will experience a decade-long stagnation.
    I can see this very clearly in my head. I have seen it 
before many times elsewhere in the world and in cities such as 
New York and Detroit. I just can't tell you when it will take 
place. It might be after 2040. It could be closer to 2030 or it 
could be as soon as next year, but its consequences will be 
severe and leave lasting and probably irreversible scars on our 
economy and society.
    Second, changing this future is not that difficult, but you 
must act now. I estimate that all that is required is a fiscal 
adjustment in the order of 400 to $450 billion or 1.5 percent 
to GDP possibly spread over two or three years to mitigate its 
impact on the economy. That would still leave room for the 
budget deficit of around one trillion dollars or so. That is 
hardly a radical request. It's just a plea for basic fiscal 
responsibility. But wait another 10 years and the required cuts 
will be twice as painful and the trillion dollars or so 
committed to the access debt services over the coming decade 
will no longer be available to fund Medicare benefits, national 
defense, or bring investments.
    Third, the window for our fiscal correction is closing a 
lot more quickly than you think. Interest rates are expected to 
be much higher in the coming decade, even without full-fledged 
crisis. The post-2000 global savings glut is morphing quickly 
into a mega investment cycle that will create significant 
upward pressure on real interest rates. The ongoing transports, 
automation, Artificial Intelligence, green energy, together 
with an urgency to build a more resilient global supply chain 
all point to new investments on an unprecedented scale.
    Our own Wharton budget model forecasts an increase in real 
interest rates of more than 3 percent over the next 10 years 
and that might prove too conservative. But even under the most 
optimistic projections, the cost of serving existing debt 
becomes unbearable around 2040, 2045 at the very latest with 
higher interest rates creating a relentless spiral that greatly 
compounds our fiscal challenges. Thank you for your time, Mr. 
Chairman.
    Chairman Whitehouse. Thank you, Dr. Gomes. Mr. Walter.

 STATEMENT OF SCOTT WALTER, PRESIDENT, CAPITAL RESEARCH CENTER 
                              \7\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

    \7\ Prepared statement of Mr. Walter appears in the appendix on 
page 63.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Mr. Walter. Chairman Whitehouse, Ranking Member Grassley, 
distinguished members of the Committee, thank you for the honor 
of testifying. Like the rest of the panel and most Committee 
members, I have no expertise in climate science, but I do have 
expertise in political operations that camouflage themselves as 
grassroots groups while quietly exploiting complicated funding 
streams enriched by billionaires. Some people call this dark 
money.
    The phenomenon often appears in environmental debates, 
including pressure groups that claim to represent outdoor 
recreation interests, but receive cash from billionaires and 
other elite political operatives for crude political purposes. 
Take Patagonia, whose owners donated billions in company stock 
to a series of 501(c)(4) or dark money groups. Initial reports 
said the money would go only to save the planet, but even The 
New York Times, fooled at first, investigated and found monies 
going to political machinations like saving the seats of the 
majority's congressional delegation and pushing non-
environmental issues like abortion.
    This Patagonian network of dark money in nonprofits already 
has a Federal Election Commission (FEC) complaint because it 
appears to have falsified the actual sources of its 
contributions to the Senate Majority PAC and others. Now, 
consider an environmentalist group that's received Patagonia 
funding, Protect our Winters (POW). Protect our Winters claims 
it's just, ``help[ing] passionate outdoor people protect the 
places and experiences they love,'' but POW also cares about 
the banal indoor recreation of politics, such as helping elect 
Democrats to Congress and shilling for the partisan Inflation 
Reduction Act.
    POW has a (c)(4) dark money arm that gives 100 percent, 
cycle after cycle, to elect Democrats. POW's (c)(3) arm 
receives support from ordinary outdoor enthusiasts, but also 
from notorious political actors. Those include a nonprofit in 
Arabella Advisors network, the biggest dark money network on 
Earth, which takes in billions every election cycle, including 
large sums from a foreign donor, yet, oddly goes unmentioned by 
Congress's fiercest dark money hawks. POW also receives money 
from the Tides Foundation, a donor-advised fund provider and 
from the David Rockefeller Fund, which also donates to the 
Tides and Arabella networks.
    POW helps corral into political campaigns trade 
associations that should know better, including the National 
Ski Areas Association. The Association's ties to POW appear in 
its climate challenge reports, which require all climate 
challengers to do such things as endorse letters from groups 
like POW, Citizens Climate Lobby, and We are Still In. We are 
Still In is an environmentalist pressure group underwritten by 
left-wing billionaire Michael Bloomberg, while Citizens Climate 
Lobby has received hundreds of thousands of dollars from Enron 
billionaire John Arnold, as well as funding from Arabella.
    Groups like POW are so compromised politically that they 
never mention powerful threats to outdoor recreation from their 
radical environmentalist allies. Obviously, for the foreseeable 
future, outdoor recreation absolutely depends on inexpensive 
transportation for ordinary Americans. That means fossil fuels 
for cars, trucks, boats, motorcycles, and planes, and it means 
roads and parking. Just consider what outdoor trade groups say 
and the Biden Administration brags about.
    The Outdoor Recreation Roundtable's president says, ``We 
have the best public lands, waters, and outdoor businesses in 
the world right here in the United States, but if Americans 
can't access them with sound roads . . . then we're missing out 
on an economic opportunity and undermining our American outdoor 
heritage.'' I think she expects those roads to be traveled by 
people who aren't rich enough to own Teslas.
    Then there's the Biden Administration bragging that its 
National Parks and Public Lands Legacy Restoration Fund will 
``increase visitor access by restoring and repairing roads . . 
. and parking areas.'' After all, how many hikers can reach 
Yellowstone without the use of jet fuel or gasoline? How many 
skiers visit Aspen or Park City without flying on a plane? 
Ending jet travel and sales of gasoline or just hiking their 
costs would devastate outdoor recreation, which means a lot of 
environmental extremist groups pose serious threats to outdoor 
recreation.
    Just last year, the Sierra Club's magazine ran a long 
article that began by lionizing a man who hasn't ridden a plane 
in five years. It ended with hopes that planes will disappear 
in a few decades. Jet travel is also denounced by groups like 
Stay Grounded and Flight Free USA. In the world they and their 
donors fight for, how can an Aspen ski resort or a fishing 
outfitter on Montana's Black Foot River survive?
    More threats come from the Environmental, Social, and 
Governance (ESG) movement's efforts to debank all fossil-fuel 
related companies. If this movement and its rich leaders like 
Larry Fink have their way, an ordinary American who depends on 
a gas-powered car for transport will never drive to Yosemite 
and no fisherman will travel in a gas-powered boat across the 
beautiful Tennessee lakes of my childhood. These threats to 
outdoor recreation deserve their own hearing. Thank you.
    Chairman Whitehouse. Dr. Gomes, do you support a price on 
carbon emissions?
    Dr. Gomes. It depends on the purpose at this stage, but I 
would prefer regulatory intervention at this point. I think 
you've done--the Inflation Reduction Act (IRA) made a lot of 
progress in addressing climate change. I think at this stage I 
would ask the question of why you want a carbon tax.
    Chairman Whitehouse. Well, let's say it would produce 
revenues to address the problem that you testified about. It 
would produce considerable revenue, would it not?
    Dr. Gomes. Depends on how it's set up, but certainly has 
the potential. Cap and Trade could do the same thing.
    Chairman Whitehouse. Yes.
    Dr. Gomes. I think those are good solutions in theory.
    Chairman Whitehouse. They're consistent with economic 
market theory; is that correct, all the way back to Milton 
Friedman putting a price on pollution?
    Dr. Gomes. I strongly prefer consumption taxes to income 
taxes. Absolutely.
    Chairman Whitehouse. And you would consider a pollution fee 
a consumption tax.
    Dr. Gomes. Absolutely.
    Chairman Whitehouse. Okay. So, you support----
    Dr. Gomes. It wouldn't be my favorite solution. I prefer 
Cap and Trade, for sure or regulatory interventions, but 
absolutely, yes.
    Chairman Whitehouse. Okay. And the effect of that would be 
to generate revenue and then you could determine where the 
revenue went, but presumably you could lower debt and deficits. 
Correct?
    Dr. Gomes. Or you could reduce distortionary income taxes, 
or you could increase funding----
    Chairman Whitehouse. You could swap it for other taxes.
    Dr. Gomes. You could do various things. Yes.
    Chairman Whitehouse. And it would be a better tax than 
other ones in terms of the choices that the public makes.
    Dr. Gomes. I would say, in theory, yes. I haven't seen a 
study in recent years that just goes through the numbers and 
assesses that.
    Chairman Whitehouse. The ways just screw up the details, 
but in theory, it should do that.
    Dr. Gomes. In theory, it should work much better.
    Chairman Whitehouse. And it would reduce pollution for 
obvious reasons.
    Dr. Gomes. Again, I have not seen a study on that.
    Chairman Whitehouse. Right. I mean that's the whole purpose 
of----
    Dr. Gomes. I would assume so.
    Chairman Whitehouse. It would be fair to assume that if you 
put a fee or a penalty on carbon emissions that that would have 
the effect of reducing carbon emissions.
    Dr. Gomes. I would strongly prefer that to the type of 
industrial policy of IRA.
    Chairman Whitehouse. Yes, but the IRA has done good in 
terms of addressing climate change. You support that, at least, 
quoting your earlier statement.
    Dr. Gomes. From an economic standpoint, as an expert 
economist, I'm not entirely sure. I think the data is very 
preliminary. I think the cost of the IRA is certainly being 
projected to be much higher than what we originally assessed, 
or CBO originally assessed, so I can't tell you that it makes 
economic sense. From a climate expert, I'm not an expert on 
that.
    Chairman Whitehouse. Are you familiar with the Deloitte 
study that estimates a $200 trillion swing between now and 
2070, depending on whether or not we get climate policies 
right. The cost of doing nothing will total $178 trillion 
between now and 2070, whereas decarbonizing to reach net zero 
could grow the global economy by $43 trillion. The difference 
being 178 plus 43 equals, what, 221.
    Dr. Gomes. I'm not familiar. The numbers seem implausibly 
large to me. I suspect that's also global.
    Chairman Whitehouse. Well, we'll send it to you. You can 
comment on that. Ms. McKenney, the New Hampshire statewide 
comprehensive outdoor recreation plan was just developed. What 
does it tell us about economic costs and what climate change 
portends for the outdoor recreation economy in New Hampshire?
    Ms. McKenney. Yes, thank you, Senator. So, New Hampshire 
just underwent our statewide comprehensive outdoor recreation 
plan. It was led by the New Hampshire State Parks Department 
and over 300 outdoor recreation providers were interviewed on 
impacts from five different climate areas and those impact 
areas were winter, summer, water and wildlife, forest, and 
extreme weather. Seventy-eight percent reported loss of outdoor 
recreation access. Seventy-five percent reported negative 
travel impacts. And operational impacts were reported across 
planning, maintenance, finances, staffing, safety, visitor use 
management, and communication.
    The most significant climate operational impacts in the 
study report 80 percent on maintenance, routine, preventive, 
and corrective. Seventy-four percent on finances, revenue, 
operating costs, capital investments, and bids. And 70 percent 
on planning, things like program offerings, marketing, and 
facility design.
    Chairman Whitehouse. And Ms. Hutcheson, you mentioned 
something that I put a mental asterisk on in your testimony, 
which is the Nonprofit Crisis Hotline serving the professional 
guide community. What is that about?
    Ms. Hutcheson. I know. We're dealing with something that 
our guides are referring to as eco grief in the outdoor guiding 
community. And there's a nonprofit organization called the Red 
Side Foundation. We kind of have adopted from Idaho over in 
Montana because we saw that Idaho had this nonprofit set up and 
they've come over to set it up in Montana now as well. And what 
it is, is it's a crisis hotline for guides, any guides in the 
outdoor professional network and they call it initially and get 
some counseling and then get set up for long-term counseling 
resources. And it's free and we, at my company, have now 
increased our counseling opportunities to further that 
counseling that our guides may need after those sessions run 
out from the Red Side Foundation. And so that's the added 
corporate expense at our company is we're offering that to 
guides for free.
    And the reason that guides are calling the number and 
getting those resources is because when we're sitting here in 
this room, I feel like it's the perfect climate-controlled 
environment and your office here. And then, if you could just 
imagine suddenly, it's on fire and then it's flooded and then 
it's full of rock sand then it's completely dry and then your 
skin feels like it's falling off and then it's pouring rain and 
then it's super hot and then it's super cold. And then suddenly 
your stapler doesn't have any staples in it. The staples would 
be fish in our situation. So, this is kind of what our guides 
are dealing with every single day throughout their summer 
months and that's just kind of that physical discomfort that 
they're experiencing out on the water.
    The psychological discomfort comes from the fact that we 
have people's lives in our hands, very literally. Like we're 
taking people down the river and we're, on top of that, trying 
to give them an exceptional experience and take care of them 
and have them enjoy their time there too. They're also asking 
us these really tough questions in the midst of all this. Why 
are these things happening? And so guides are needing to now 
kind of be a counselor for them and we're not qualified to do 
that. So, they're saying I will try to find out for you. I will 
help you get these resources. I will give you information. And 
then they need to go and talk to somebody about, you know, best 
ways to get through their day that way.
    The number one thing that counselors at the Red Side 
Foundation tell me that guides struggle with is transition. So, 
in your regular job, a seasonal, outdoor recreation job, 
there's a big transition after your season ends and that can be 
really challenging. You lose your team, working together, 
eating together, camping together as a team all summer long and 
then suddenly you lose that team. Now, those guides are going 
out into another challenging outdoor recreation environment 
like the ski industry.
    So, now they're going out of the river and then into the 
mountains where they're finding additional outdoor recreation 
challenges that are because of this unstable environment. So, 
it's a year-round kind of stress for them where they're 
constantly transitioning. The financial transition is extremely 
challenging for our guides because they don't know if they're 
going to have a job next summer. They're traveling around from 
river to river, from mountain to mountain. They just don't have 
stability within their jobs and that part, not knowing where 
your money is going to be is really tough.
    We had guides last summer who had to leave early because we 
ran out of water, and they just weren't getting the trips 
because we had so many guides and not enough water. And that 
was really tough for them as well. So, seeing them go and 
trying to get them to come back and me saying I'm doing the 
best that I can to try to talk to our elected leadership to see 
what we can do for you is why I'm here.
    Chairman Whitehouse. Not to mention that they love what 
they do.
    Ms. Hutcheson. They love it.
    Chairman Whitehouse. Senator Grassley. Senator Kennedy.

                  STATEMENT OF SENATOR KENNEDY

    Senator Kennedy. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman and Mr. 
Vice Chairman. Mr. Schumacher, welcome. Who invited you here 
today?
    Mr. Schumacher. I came with Protect Our Winters.
    Senator Kennedy. Right. But you're here on behalf of the 
Democrats or the Republicans.
    Mr. Schumacher. I'm here on behalf of the outdoor 
enthusiasts around America.
    Senator Kennedy. Okay. You were contacted by Senator 
Whitehouse's staff?
    Mr. Schumacher. I personally came with Protect Our Winters, 
so I don't know how that went exactly.
    Senator Kennedy. What is carbon dioxide?
    Mr. Schumacher. I went to high school, but that's--carbon 
dioxide is a gas.
    Senator Kennedy. Okay.
    Mr. Schumacher. I'm not a professional to talk about carbon 
dioxide so much.
    Senator Kennedy. Well, you want us to abolish it, right?
    Mr. Schumacher. No, I--there's always going to be carbon 
dioxide.
    Senator Kennedy. Right. So, what is it you want us to do?
    Mr. Schumacher. I----
    Senator Kennedy. Let me back up because I want to--I mean 
you're here as an expert. Tell me more about what carbon 
dioxide is.
    Mr. Schumacher. I'm here as an expert cross-country skier 
who sees the changes in my winters and the landscape that I 
live in, in Alaska. And so, carbon dioxide is what I see it as 
is, you know, it's a gas that exists in our atmosphere.
    Senator Kennedy. Is it the major part of our atmosphere?
    Mr. Schumacher. It's a huge part of our atmosphere. Yes.
    Senator Kennedy. It's actually a very small part of our 
atmosphere.
    Mr. Schumacher. Well, okay. I don't know. What are you 
asking specifically?
    Senator Kennedy. Well, you said we need to reduce carbon 
dioxide emissions. I'd like to know first if you know what it 
is. You want us to abolish fossil fuels?
    Mr. Schumacher. I never said that.
    Senator Kennedy. You never have said that?
    Mr. Schumacher. No.
    Senator Kennedy. What'd you think we ought to do with 
fossil fuels?
    Mr. Schumacher. What would we do with fossil fuels?
    Senator Kennedy. Yeah. Should we make any changes?
    Mr. Schumacher. I would like to see a decrease in the use 
of fossil fuels. I think there's a possibility to use more 
electric generation.
    Senator Kennedy. Over what period of time, 10 years, 50 
years, 100 years?
    Mr. Schumacher. That's not--I would like to see it come as 
fast as possible while continuing----
    Senator Kennedy. How fast?
    Mr. Schumacher. Sorry?
    Senator Kennedy. How fast?
    Mr. Schumacher. I don't have an answer for that.
    Senator Kennedy. You don't know?
    Mr. Schumacher. No.
    Senator Kennedy. How much will it cost for us to become 
carbon neutral in the United States by 2050?
    Mr. Schumacher. I'm not a professional on that. I don't 
have an answer.
    Senator Kennedy. You don't have any idea?
    Mr. Schumacher. No.
    Senator Kennedy. You just think we ought to spend the 
money?
    Mr. Schumacher. I'm not an economist.
    Senator Kennedy. Yeah, but it's going to cost money. You 
realize that.
    Mr. Schumacher. Yeah, but we've also talked about the 
tradeoff of what the cost of climate change as emergencies will 
cost in the future also.
    Senator Kennedy. Right. But it's going to cost trillions of 
dollars to become carbon neutral by 2050, right?
    Mr. Schumacher. I don't know.
    Senator Kennedy. You don't know. You just think we ought to 
do it.
    Mr. Schumacher. I don't have a great answer for you, but I 
think----
    Senator Kennedy. If we spent those trillions of dollars and 
became carbon neutral by 2050 in the United States, which you 
advocate--how much would it reduce world temperatures?
    Mr. Schumacher. I don't have an answer for that.
    Senator Kennedy. You don't know?
    Mr. Schumacher. No.
    Senator Kennedy. You just think we ought to spend the money 
and then see what happens?
    Mr. Schumacher. As an athlete, I think if we spend that 
money and invest in our future, hopefully, those temperatures 
stop rising and maybe the snow, at least, stabilizes where it 
is for me, but yeah, I don't think anyone knows for sure. I 
don't know anyway.
    Senator Kennedy. Well, when my colleagues invite witnesses 
to come to us to tell us--advise us on passing legislation, I 
always check out the background of our witnesses because I like 
to know who I'm talking to. I checked yours out, Mr. 
Schumacher, and I want to be sure I understand it as I evaluate 
your testimony. On June 8, 2020, you tweeted--I'm going to 
quote. ``The War on Drugs was intentionally created to 
incarcerate Black people en masse.'' The War on Drugs, you 
said, was intentionally created to incarcerate Black people en 
masse. Who intentionally created the War on Drugs to put Black 
people in jail. Who were you talking about?
    Mr. Schumacher. I don't remember typing that.
    Senator Kennedy. You don't?
    Mr. Schumacher. No.
    Senator Kennedy. It's on your Twitter feed.
    Mr. Schumacher. Maybe a retweet. I don't know. I haven't 
used that in a while.
    Senator Kennedy. Well, even if it's a retweet, it shows 
your support, right?
    Mr. Schumacher. Yeah, maybe. But it's not the topic of this 
conversation.
    Senator Kennedy. Right. Right. But it has to do with you're 
here giving us advice and I just kinda like to know a little 
bit more about your point of view.
    Mr. Schumacher. Yeah, I mean, I'm here as an athlete giving 
you my story and what I've seen in my view.
    Senator Kennedy. On August 27th of 2020, you tweeted this. 
I'm going to quote. ``Police are paid with taxpayer dollars. If 
they are not answerable to us, we can demand new service and 
that's what this is. Abolish the police in favor of that new 
service.'' You think we ought to abolish the police, do you?
    Mr. Schumacher. Again, not the topic I'm here to talk about 
today.
    Senator Kennedy. I know. But you tweeted it. Do you think 
we ought to abolish the police?
    Mr. Schumacher. That's not what I'm here to talk about.
    Senator Kennedy. Should we do that before or after we get 
rid of fossil fuel?
    Mr. Schumacher. I'm not going to address that.
    Senator Kennedy. You don't want to address it. Okay. Let me 
ask you about one more of your tweets. On August 26th, 2020, 
you tweeted--there's a picture. I'm not going to describe the 
picture, but you said--your words, not mine. It's on your 
twitter feed. ``This is what systemic racism looks like. The 
Los Angeles Police Department is literally policing only the 
Black Lives Matters side.'' What's you mean by that?
    Mr. Schumacher. This is still off topic.
    Senator Kennedy. No, it's not. You're here as an expert 
telling us--advising us and I'm asking you about your 
background.
    Mr. Schumacher. I'm here as an athlete to talk about the 
effects of climate change on my sport.
    Senator Kennedy. Okay. Let's go back--well, I'm almost out 
of time.
    Chairman Whitehouse. You're well out of time and we have 
other senators waiting, so just wrap up when you have a moment.
    Senator Kennedy. All right. Thank you all for your 
testimony.
    Chairman Whitehouse. Senator Grassley.
    Senator Grassley. Dr. Gomes, you indicated your concern 
about a coming fiscal crisis, particularly triggered by the 
loss of market confidence because of the national debt, so you 
urged fiscal responsibility. Do you believe excessive federal 
spending or climate change is a greater economic concern for 
our committee to address?
    Dr. Gomes. At this moment, I believe the fiscal concerns 
are more important and more urgent. I will take issue with a 
couple of things that Senator Whitehouse said, if I may. I 
think there is no question climate change is incredibly 
disruptive. It's costly. There is a risk, a risk of impending 
disaster. I agree with that, but I think you can--if you 
believe that, I think you can be proud that you've taken plenty 
of action already to address it. I think the budget crisis is 
far more pressing and I think you're greatly underestimating 
the damage that that will do. And I think that if we have a 
budget crisis, you will not have the ability to address climate 
change no matter how much you cared about it. And I strongly 
believe that is the most pressing existential threat to our 
economy.
    Senator Grassley. Also to you, Chairman Powell said this, 
``It is well past time we all have an adult conversation about 
fiscal responsibility.'' What would that adult conversation 
entail and what and when should we be having that?
    Dr. Gomes. You should have it now. I'm not an expert in 
Washington's way of doing business, but I can understand the 
pain of the sort of adjustment that I'm asking for. I realize 
both parties, both of you, have to come together and have some 
sort of agreement. I just think that's the reality of it. But 
there's no question. You look at the trend lines, the growth of 
entitlements is unsustainable. I think certainly the tax 
revenues could go up a couple of points. I think there's room 
for that, but you look at just the latest proposal of the 
President and our own simulations from the Wharton budget 
model, there's just not enough revenue there to address the 
fiscal crisis. There just isn't, unless you're willing to 
consider across the board increases in taxes and they're, by 
law, supposed to go up December 31st, 2025 anyway. There just 
isn't enough revenue in the proposals to stop this. I think you 
need to deal with the entitlement issues. You need to think 
about it, and you need to come together, I would say, urge you 
to come together and find a solution that addresses this 
problem. You may not have 10 years.
    We had two warnings in the last 18 months. And one that I 
would point out to you is the United Kingdom (UK) experience in 
the fall of 2022, in the space of five days. One bad budget for 
a country that had a debt to GDP ratio below what it is now is 
the U.S., a country that had a lot of credibility, not the same 
as the U.S., experienced a change in interest rates of 4 
percent, almost 5 percent in five days. That just happened 
overnight, essentially, five days. That was just a sudden loss 
of confidence in fiscal policy.
    That could happen next year. That could happen next year. 
If it does happen, you will not have the resources to do any of 
the things we're talking about here. You might not even have 
the resources to pursue IRA, which is going to cost us another 
$700 billion or so over the next 10 years.
    Senator Grassley. Mr. Walter, we've heard testimony from 
multiple witnesses through 15 hearings that we've held on this 
subject. Your testimony highlights the strength of the American 
outdoor recreation economy. What do you think is at the core of 
this testimony and how does dark money compare between left-
leaning causes and right-leaning?
    Mr. Walter. Well, the dark money numbers are very clear for 
the 2018 cycle, 2020 cycle, 2022 cycle. In all cases, the left 
and the Democratic Party did far better. And Open Secrets, 
which is the best source on this sort of thing and is not a 
conservative source, just recently published preliminary 
numbers for the '24 cycle, which continue to show left-wing 
Democrat dominance in dark money.
    Senator Grassley. I'll submit my other questions for answer 
in writing.
    Chairman Whitehouse. Great. Thank you very much. Let me 
thank the witnesses for coming in. You bring both the voice of 
a trillion dollar industry here and also the voice of people 
who still live in the outdoors and are experiencing the changes 
that fossil fuel pollution is wreaking on our world in a very 
first-hand and immediate way. There is something quite painful 
about going back to a place you have loved and finding it 
changed for the worse with nothing that you can do about it 
because forces beyond your control are doing it grievous 
damage.
    So, thank you for coming here to push back a little bit on 
those forces beyond your control. Thank you for providing 
testimony relevant to that subject and I would simply note with 
respect to Dr. Gomes comment back to me during his Question & 
Answer with our wonderful Ranking Member, that actually a 
significant price on carbon emissions would be a twofer. We 
actually could do something about climate change in a big way 
in an environment in which we're trying to bring down debt and 
deficit. The bill that I've drafted is two trillion dollars 
over 10 years. That's a very significant piece of revenue. The 
problem is that people just don't want to do that, but the 
solution is right in front of us and it both addresses the debt 
and the deficit size and the climate risk that we've heard such 
significant expert testimony from people like chairmen of 
sovereign banks and major insurance company chief executives 
and the chief economist of Freddie Mac, the top advisors 
through Milliman of the insurance industry. So again, I urge 
that we look at the solutions that are right in front of us and 
get ahead of this problem before it's too late.
    The record will remain open for 24 hours for anybody who 
wants to ask you guys a question. We will get those right out 
to you, and we would ask that you turn around answers, if you 
get those questions, within a week so that we can circulate 
them through the Committee. And with all of that, the hearing 
is concluded.
    [Whereupon, at 11:08 a.m., Wednesday, March 20, 2024, the 
hearing was adjourned.]
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

                               [all]