[Senate Hearing 118-23]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]


                                                         S. Hrg. 118-23

                     DRINKING WATER INFRASTRUCTURE
                         AND TRIBAL COMMUNITIES

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

                      SUBCOMMITTEE ON FISHERIES, 
                          WATER, AND WILDLIFE

                                 OF THE

                              COMMITTEE ON
                      ENVIRONMENT AND PUBLIC WORKS

                          UNITED STATES SENATE

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                             FIRST SESSION
                               __________

                           SEPTEMBER 20, 2023
                               __________

  Printed for the use of the Committee on Environment and Public Works
  
  
                    [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]


        Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov
        
                               __________

                    U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
                    
55-108 PDF                 WASHINGTON : 2024           

               COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENT AND PUBLIC WORKS

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                             FIRST SESSION

                  THOMAS R. CARPER, Delaware, Chairman
          SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO, West Virginia, Ranking Member

BENJAMIN L. CARDIN, Maryland         KEVIN CRAMER, North Dakota
BERNARD SANDERS, Vermont             CYNTHIA M. LUMMIS, Wyoming
SHELDON WHITEHOUSE, Rhode Island     MARKWAYNE MULLIN, Oklahoma
JEFF MERKLEY, Oregon                 PETE RICKETTS, Nebraska
EDWARD J. MARKEY, Massachusetts      JOHN BOOZMAN, Arkansas
DEBBIE STABENOW, Michigan            ROGER WICKER, Mississippi
MARK KELLY, Arizona                  DAN SULLIVAN, Alaska
ALEX PADILLA, California             LINDSEY O. GRAHAM, South Carolina
JOHN FETTERMAN, Pennsylvania

               Courtney Taylor, Democratic Staff Director
               Adam Tomlinson, Republican Staff Director
                              ----------                              

             Subcommittee on Fisheries, Water, and Wildlife

                   ALEX PADILLA, California, Chairman
               CYNTHIA M. LUMMIS, Wyoming, Ranking Member

BENJAMIN L. CARDIN, Maryland         KEVIN CRAMER, North Dakota
SHELDON WHITEHOUSE, Rhode Island     PETE RICKETTS, Nebraska
EDWARD J. MARKEY, Massachusetts      JOHN BOOZMAN, Arkansas
DEBBIE STABENOW, Michigan            DAN SULLIVAN, Alaska
MARK KELLY, Arizona                  SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO, West 
THOMAS R. CARPER, Delaware (ex           Virginia (ex officio)
    officio)
                            C O N T E N T S

                              ----------                              
                                                                   Page

                           SEPTEMBER 20, 2023
                           OPENING STATEMENTS

Padilla, Hon. Alex, U.S. Senator from the State of California....     1
Lummis, Hon. Cynthia M., U.S. Senator from the State of Wyoming..     3

                               WITNESSES

Norton, Ken, Chair, National Tribal Water Council, Director, 
  Hoopa Valley Tribal Environmental Protection Agency............     5
    Prepared statement...........................................     7
Bennon, Brian, Tribal Water Systems Program Manager, Inter Tribal 
  Council of Arizona, Inc........................................    11
    Prepared statement...........................................    13
WallowingBull, Jola, Director, Northern Arapaho Tribal 
  Engineering Department.........................................    31
    Prepared statement...........................................    33

                          ADDITIONAL MATERIAL

Statement of the Tule River Indian Tribe.........................    54
Letter to Senator Carper, et al. from the Rural Community 
  Assistance Partnership, September 20, 2023.....................    59

 
                     DRINKING WATER INFRASTRUCTURE 
                         AND TRIBAL COMMUNITIES

                              ----------                              


                     WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 20, 2023

                               U.S. Senate,
         Committee on Environment and Public Works,
            Subcommittee on Fisheries, Water, and Wildlife,
                                                    Washington, DC.
    The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:33 p.m. in 
room 406, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Alex Padilla 
(Chairman of the Subcommittee) presiding.
    Present: Senators Padilla, Lummis, Carper, Kelly, Ricketts, 
and Sullivan.

            OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. ALEX PADILLA, 
           U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA

    Senator Padilla. This hearing will come to order.
    Good afternoon, everyone, and thank you all for joining us 
today for our second hearing this Congress of the Senate 
Environment and Public Works Subcommittee on Fisheries, Water, 
and Wildlife.
    Not only are we set to discuss drinking water and 
wastewater infrastructure in tribal communities here in EPW, 
but I am happy to share that as we speak, subcommittee chairman 
Wyden of the Energy and Natural Resources Committee is also 
holding a hearing on water access in underserved communities. 
And next week, Chairman Schatz will join us by holding a 
hearing of the Indian Affairs Committee on related issues as 
well.
    So there is a growing consensus here, which is encouraging 
news. Ensuring tribal access to water and sanitation is a 
multi-jurisdictional, multi-committee, multi-agency problem. 
And I am proud that there is a commitment amongst my Senate 
colleagues to tackle it.
    As we will hear from our witnesses today, this is an often 
overlooked and underfunded area with serious impacts on the 
health and well being of countless Native American communities. 
I want to thank Chairman Carper and Ranking Member Capito as 
well as my Subcommittee Ranking Member, Senator Lummis, for 
prioritizing this issue.
    Senator Lummis is on the way; she will be joining us in a 
few minutes. And we expect Chairman Carper and other members of 
the Committee as well.
    I also want to take a moment to thank all of our witnesses 
for joining us to help convey the challenges that Indian 
Country still faces, in the year 2023, the challenges still 
faced in securing adequate water infrastructure for their 
communities.
    As I mentioned, we are here today to learn more about the 
current state of drinking and wastewater infrastructure in 
Indian Country. In 2023, there is no reason why any person in 
America should lack clean and affordable water in their taps 
and in their showers and reliable plumbing in their homes. Yet 
far too many tribal communities across the country, for too 
many of them, reliable and affordable water infrastructure has 
become a privilege, and not a right.
    Native American households are 19 times more likely than 
white households to lack indoor pipes for running water and 
sanitation. Let me emphasize that statistic a little bit. Not 
19 percent more likely, 19 times more likely. And even that 
stat on the shortage of physical infrastructure doesn't begin 
to capture the gap in water quality for Native Americans.
    Inadequate water supply and deteriorating pipes can impact 
the public health, education, and economic development of 
tribal communities. And it is easy to see why. If you can't 
trust the water you are drinking, or the plumbing that keeps 
your home sanitary, it harms your quality of life.
    On top of that, tribal communities' water systems are 
almost all small or rural as well as understaffed, often with 
only one person dedicated to transportation infrastructure and 
energy infrastructure and water services and more. Unlike State 
and local governments, tribal governments lack the tax base for 
infrastructure improvement and staff, often exacerbating water 
access issues and leading to higher water bills for tribal 
homes.
    I know we have seen these problems in California, where for 
example the Tule River Tribe, like so many others, was forced 
onto a reservation without the irrigation and water storage 
facilities that the Federal Government promised. The Tule River 
Tribe faces a constant battle to access clean water. Families 
are forced to haul in water by truck for their own daily 
hygiene or for their children to drink.
    On days when water is too tough to get, some simply go 
without. And when disaster strikes, as it did last month when a 
stray lightning bolt knocked out power, hundreds lose access to 
clean water in an instant.
    So this must be an urgent priority for the Federal 
Government, which, I will remind us, has a moral and legal 
trust responsibility to act. Of course, last year, after 
decades of neglect, Congress did step up to make 
transformational investments in tribal infrastructure through 
the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law, which will bring nearly $870 
million to the EPA for tribal infrastructure construction and 
$3.5 billion to the Indian Health Service for tribal 
sanitation.
    That is good news. But for as much good as that funding 
will do, the need in tribal communities is even greater. They 
need not just an initial surge of funding for new projects, but 
sustained funding for securing the long term stability of the 
water systems.
    That could mean new and continued funding for operations 
and maintenance, so that even without tax revenues, Tribes have 
a reliable stream of funding to prepare and maintain water 
infrastructure when needed after the initial investments dry 
up.
    That could mean improved technical assistance to better 
support the design of tribal projects that will receive Federal 
funding. That could mean increased work force development for 
understaffed water managers and tailored certification training 
for tribal operators whom hundreds of people might rely on to 
stay safe.
    And as we focused on in my first Subcommittee hearing, that 
could mean finally funding a permanent water rate assistance 
program like we have for energy assistance, with LIHEAP, to 
ensure that Native American households aren't saddled with high 
water bills that they can't afford.
    So there is a lot on the table today, and I am looking 
forward to hearing from each of our witnesses about what you 
are seeing on the ground and what you see as the most direct 
solutions to getting tribal communities the support that they 
need.
    With that, I will introduce and turn it over to Ranking 
Member Lummis for her opening statement.

         OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. CYNTHIA M. LUMMIS, 
             U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF WYOMING

    Senator Lummis. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It is a pleasure 
to serve with you, and your interest in this subject and mine 
dovetail tremendously.
    We are grateful to our witnesses for being here today.
    I especially want to extend a warm welcome to Jola 
WallowingBull, who has taken time to travel from the Wind River 
Reservation to be here with us today.
    Jola, thank you so much for coming.
    Having access to both clean drinking water and wastewater 
infrastructure is a necessity for communities in this day and 
age. It is what keeps our children safe as they develop, what 
keeps communities strong and bound together, and what allows 
economic growth to occur. Without access to adequate drinking 
water and wastewater infrastructure, a community will 
oftentimes struggle to survive.
    Unfortunately, far too many communities lack access to this 
basic infrastructure, and too many of those communities are 
those of our tribal neighbors. It is my hope that this hearing 
today will give the members of this Committee greater insight 
into the unique challenges that Tribes face when providing safe 
and affordable drinking water and wastewater services.
    The EPA can and must do better when it comes to 
prioritizing funding decision timing for Tribes. This includes 
prioritizing tribal communities within the Small and 
Disadvantaged Grant program.
    I am also particularly interested to hear how effective EPA 
is in communicating the regulatory requirements that Tribes 
must meet under the Clean Water Act and Safe Drinking Water 
Act. So I hope we will hear something about that from our 
witnesses.
    EPA's decision to move forward with a national primary 
drinking water standard for certain PFAS compounds will mean 
that Tribes will need to install expensive treatment technology 
in order to maintain compliance. The installation, operation, 
and maintenance costs will ultimately be borne by members of 
the Tribe.
    I will be interested to also hear from the witnesses about 
how they plan to keep water rates affordable if they are forced 
to install these new technologies. I would also be remiss if I 
did not reiterate my concern with EPA's proposal to list PFAS 
compounds under CERCLA.
    The liability costs that small, rural, and tribal water 
systems would face if this rule is finalized could be crushing 
and would be crushing for some Tribes. This Committee must 
thoroughly address passive receiver liability issues at the 
earliest possible time so that small system operators have the 
regulatory certainty they need to continue to provide clean 
drinking water.
    Thank you again for calling this hearing, Mr. Chairman.
    Thanks again to our witnesses. I look forward to hearing 
your opening statements, and I look forward to our discussion 
afterwards.
    Thanks, Mr. Chairman.
    Senator Padilla. Thank you very much.
    Before we hear from our witnesses, let me offer them a very 
proper introduction. We are joined by Ken Norton, who serves 
not only as Director of the Hoopa Valley Tribal Environmental 
Protection Agency in California, but also chairs the National 
Tribal Water Council, which advocates for the best interests of 
Native American and Alaska Native Tribes on water. 
Specifically, they assist the USEPA with research and 
information for decisionmaking on water issues. So I know Mr. 
Norton will be a great resources to the Subcommittee on how we 
can bolster EPA's tribal water programs.
    I would also like to introduce Mr. Brian Bennon, who is the 
Tribal Water Systems Department Director at the Inter Tribal 
Council of Arizona, which is an inter-tribal consortium of 21 
Tribes in Arizona. Mr. Bennon oversees the Council's National 
Training Certification and Technical Assistance Services for 
Drinking Water and Wastewater Operator Personnel.
    Last but not least, I will turn it over to Senator Lummis 
to introduce our third witness.
    Senator Lummis. Thanks so much.
    Jola WallowingBull is the Director of the Northern Arapaho 
Tribal Engineering Department. She is an enrolled member of the 
Northern Arapaho Tribe from the Wind River Indian Reservation. 
She graduated from the University of Wyoming in 2006 with a 
Bachelor of Science degree in architectural engineering. She 
was also recognized as the first American Indian woman to 
receive a degree in architectural engineering from the 
University of Wyoming.
    Jola is currently the Director for the Northern Arapaho 
Tribal Engineering Department, where she works with State and 
Federal funding agencies to improve the water and wastewater 
systems for the Northern Arapaho communities. She has worked in 
this position since 2016, and has established a solid 
foundation for the department.
    Mr. Chairman, I would be remiss in not having you notice 
the beautiful skirt that she is wearing. A friend of hers on 
the reservation made the skirt particularly for her visit today 
to Washington. It is stunning. I hope everyone will take 
advantage of seeing that fabulous work of art that she is 
wearing.
    Thanks, Mr. Chairman.
    Senator Padilla. Thank you very much.
    Welcome to all three witnesses.
    Mr. Norton, we will begin with you.

STATEMENT OF KEN NORTON, CHAIR, NATIONAL TRIBAL WATER COUNCIL, 
 DIRECTOR, HOOPA VALLEY TRIBAL ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY

    Mr. Norton. Thank you.
    My purpose for speaking before the Committee today is to 
raise awareness and understanding about the immediate need to 
support the operation and maintenance of tribal drinking water 
systems in addressing public health inequalities and the 
fulfillment of trust to provide safe and clean water to our 
tribal nations.
    Over the past several decades, many Tribes have developed 
the necessary infrastructure to bring piped water to their 
community households. However, for a variety of reasons, some 
of these tribal water systems have struggled with providing 
suitable water for human consumption to the communities they 
serve. The physical condition and the operation and maintenance 
of these systems influences the extent to which these 
communities are at risk of contamination and illness.
    The Environmental Protection Agency is directly responsible 
for overseeing the monitoring and reporting about the water 
quality delivered by public water systems for most Native 
American Tribes. According to EPA's Safe Drinking Water 
Information System, it indicates that there are a total of 835 
public water systems that are owned by tribal governments.
    These systems serve an estimated 1.4 million people who are 
at a higher risk when compared to consumers served by public 
water systems with State oversight. Many tribal water systems 
serve water that exceeds health based standards, and have not 
been monitored in accordance with the Safe Drinking Water Act.
    In addition to the health based violations, the EPA also 
monitors non-health based violations. These occur when a public 
water system owner fails to monitor or report any of the 90 
contaminants required as part of the Safe Drinking Water Act. 
The most recent compliance data compiled from the EPA indicates 
that 404 of the 835 tribally owned water systems regulated by 
EPA had one or more non-health based violation.
    The Indian Health Service and the EPA are the primary 
Federal agencies responsible for working collaboratively with 
Tribes to ensure they have access to safe drinking water and 
basic sanitation. These agencies have pointed out that an 
important root cause of the non-compliance problem is the lack 
of operation and maintenance capacity. Without additional 
resources, the leadership from these agencies concluded that 
EPA simply imposing additional enforcement actions will not 
likely result in improving drinking water quality compliance.
    The Indian Health Service under the Indian Health Care 
Improvement Act since 1992 has had the authority to provide 
funds to support the cost of operating, managing, and 
maintaining tribal water and wastewater facilities. However, 
IHS has never requested funding for this purpose, and Congress 
has not appropriated these funds to IHS.
    In order to improve the operation and maintenance capacity 
of tribal water systems, the National Tribal Water Council 
recommends, one, Congress direct EPA, in collaboration with the 
IHS, to evaluate all tribally owned water systems to estimate 
the annual cost associated with operating and maintaining these 
facilities. And two, Congress appropriate $600 million over a 5 
year period to be utilized by IHS in collaboration with EPA to 
develop and implement a pilot program that directly supports 
the operation and maintenance of these public water systems.
    And finally, three, Congress direct IHS to utilize the 
assessments completed in Recommendation 1 and the data compiled 
in Recommendation 2 to develop a budget request that can be 
considered by Congress for funding appropriation to support all 
tribal water systems needing operation and maintenance support.
    Thank you for allowing me to address the Committee today on 
our recommendations. Thank you.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Norton follows:]

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    Senator Padilla. Thank you, Mr. Norton.
    Mr. Bennon.

    STATEMENT OF BRIAN BENNON, TRIBAL WATER SYSTEMS PROGRAM 
         MANAGER, INTER TRIBAL COUNCIL OF ARIZONA, INC.

    Mr. Bennon. Chairman Padilla, Ranking Member Lummis, and 
Committee members, I am Brian Bennon, Director of the National 
Tribal Water Systems Program at the Inter Tribal Council of 
Arizona, an inter-tribal consortium of 21 federally recognized 
Tribes.
    The ITCA program provides technical assistance, training, 
and operator certification services to tribal water utilities 
located across six EPA regions and over 200 tribal nations. 
Proper sanitation services are the cornerstone of modern public 
health and economic development. However, the rural, poverty 
stricken conditions of most reservations commonly result in 
under-resourced drinking water and wastewater facilities.
    According to the Indian Health Service, 22 percent of 
tribal homes are without access to adequate sanitation. The 
word adequate, meaning in compliance with all applicable health 
and environmental regulations. According to Environmental 
Protection Agency data, over 90 percent of tribal public water 
systems are classified as small or very small systems, serving 
3,300 or fewer customers.
    EPA data averaged from the last 10 years identifies 
significant compliance disparities under the Safe Drinking 
Water Act. Tribal public water systems have two times more 
violations and over three times more priority violations 
compared to non-tribal systems. Similar compliance disparities 
exist for tribal wastewater facility discharges to surface 
water bodies regulated under the Clean Water Act.
    Federal agencies annually spend hundreds of millions of 
taxpayers' dollars on infrastructure construction to improve 
tribal community access to safe drinking water and sanitation. 
However, infrastructure construction alone cannot solve this 
access crisis. Infrastructure construction must be balanced 
with the building of managerial, financial, and technical 
capacity of the utilities to properly operate and maintain the 
water infrastructure investments.
    One major concern area is the financial viability of 
operations and maintenance. The water industry prescribes that 
utilities function as a business where operations and 
maintenance costs are distributed across the customer base 
through water service rates. However, scales of economy cause 
this business model to fail when there are too few customers 
and when communities are geographically isolated with limited 
economic means to pay for such services.
    Such conditions additionally create work force barriers. 
Rural, small, tribal water utilities are challenged in 
attracting qualified personnel. Once trained and certified, 
operators often leave to work at bigger utilities that offer 
higher salaries and more benefits.
    Based on these observations, the following recommendations 
may be offered. A funding mechanism in parity with the States 
is needed for tribally led, by Tribes for Tribes organizations, 
for capacity development and operator certification programs. 
EPA needs to engage in public meetings with two existing 
tribally led, by Tribes for Tribes capacity development and 
operator certification programs for ongoing dialogue and 
strategic planning for future program improvements.
    Create a Federal funding program that provides revolving 
operations and maintenance grants for small, tribal drinking 
water and wastewater utilities that have implemented all 
possible components of sustainable operations and maintenance, 
but whose scales of economies cause a financial viability 
shortfall gap.
    Expand the EPA and IHS facilitated technical assistance 
provider coordination meetings initiative to additional areas 
in Indian Country. The Federal Infrastructure Task Force should 
return to conducting periodic publicly accessible meetings for 
discussions on compliance disparities, regional rural water 
supply systems, and funding for operations and maintenance.
    Thank you for the opportunity to provide this testimony.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Bennon follows:]

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    Senator Padilla. Thank you very much.
    Ms. WallowingBull.

  STATEMENT OF JOLA WALLOWINGBULL, DIRECTOR, NORTHERN ARAPAHO 
                 TRIBAL ENGINEERING DEPARTMENT

    Ms. WallowingBull. Chairman Padilla, Ranking Member Lummis, 
members of the Subcommittee, thank you for holding this hearing 
and giving me an opportunity to speak on behalf of the Northern 
Arapaho Tribe.
    [Phrase in Native tongue.] I am Singing Cedar Woman. My 
name is Jola WallowingBull. I have been the Director for the 
Tribal Engineering Department for 7 years.
    As Director, I work with the State and Federal agencies to 
maintain and help improve the Tribe's water and wastewater 
systems. We have three water systems located in Ethete and 
Arapaho, Wyoming, and we have five wastewater systems between 
both communities.
    I appreciate the opportunity to share with you some 
information about how these systems operate and serve our 
people, how we obtain funds for operations and improvements to 
our systems, the regulatory and work force issues we face, and 
the role Federal funding plays in the delivery of clean, safe 
water to our members and their families.
    Currently the Tribe receives Federal funding from the 
Department of Agricultural Development Office, and from the 
Indian Health Service, or IHS, for water projects. The 
Environmental Protection Agency also provides funding through 
IHS.
    Funding practices are often demanding and time consuming. 
Each agency has a different application process, and after 
submitting applications, it often takes a long time to receive 
funding and put it to use.
    While we wait for applications to be approved, our work 
cannot and does not wait. Leaks and other issues continue while 
our requests slowly move through the approval process. We plug 
holes as best we can, but the review system ensures that we are 
always addressing emergencies rather than allocating our 
resources to planning future development.
    To be clear, the Tribe and Federal agencies have developed 
a great working relationship over the years. And I look forward 
to building on our success in the future. In addition to what 
has already been accomplished, I hope we are able to shift our 
focus to securing funding for future expansion and not only 
focusing on existing facilities.
    The Tribe also faces regulatory issues with the right of 
way process. Even after securing funding, the right of way 
process can delay the implementation of necessary projects by 
years. An example of this is the Ethete Wellfield. The project 
was originally funded in 2014, but is still incomplete because 
it took approximately 5 years to get a land lease on the tribal 
trust land.
    The effects of that delay, compounded by inflation, means 
that every dollar we receive loses its buying power over time. 
We frequently run out of money for projects because of 
inflation driven increased costs. Streamlining the right of way 
process will ensure that we can start projects faster, and the 
dollars will go further.
    The Tribe also faces problems when it comes to hiring and 
retaining workers. Currently, the Tribe has six water and 
wastewater operators. Only two of them are certified, Harold 
Little Bear and Floyd Addison. To effectively operate and 
maintain our systems, we need 12 certified operators.
    A major obstacle preventing us from hiring and retaining 
staff is low pay. Our operators make under the State average 
compared to other professionals in their position. Increased 
pay and benefits would entice high quality candidates and 
retain high quality staff like Harold Little Bear and Floyd 
Addison. A Federal subsidy to increase wages for these 
positions would bolster these work force efforts.
    The water and wastewater systems for the Northern Arapaho 
Tribe are underfunded, outdated, and at capacity. Many lines 
are undersized and made from substandard materials, such as 
thin walled PVC and asbestos concrete. Water breaks are 
frequent, and repair supplies are increasingly difficult to 
find.
    Our goal is to continue to provide safe water for our 
people. And we will fulfill our mission. But we cannot do 
everything with the limited resources we have. As it stands 
now, we are unable to focus on tomorrow's growth and developing 
a master plan for the future because too many of our resources 
go toward the emergencies of today.
    We remain passionate about our job, because of its 
importance to the community. Our grandparents fought to provide 
a brighter future for our generation. Now I look at my nieces 
and my nephews and their kids, and I want a brighter future for 
them, too.
    For the longevity of the Tribe, we must have the 
opportunity to create a path forward and work toward a new 
chapter where we may proactively plan for our future as a Tribe 
and as a people.
    [Phrase in Native tongue]. Thank you, and I look forward to 
your questions.
    [The prepared statement of Ms. WallowingBull follows:]

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    Senator Padilla. Thank you very much.
    Thank you to all three of you.
    We will now turn to questions from the Committee. I get to 
begin.
    Thanks to the work of the bipartisan members of this 
Committee, Congress provided over $4 billion for tribal 
sanitation over the next 5 years via the Bipartisan 
Infrastructure Law. This is transformative funding that will 
improve lives in Indian Country, but based on the testimony we 
have just heard, this funding should be viewed as just the 
start.
    Mr. Norton, can you talk more about how the Bipartisan 
Infrastructure Law funding is only half of the puzzle, given 
the difficulties tribal water systems typically face with 
operations and maintenance?
    Mr. Norton. Thank you.
    First, I would like to say that the Bipartisan 
Infrastructure Law is greatly appreciated from Tribes and the 
Alaska Native villages across the Nation. It actually changes 
lives, providing access to drinking water and basic sanitation.
    But as we heard, it addresses minimally the violations that 
exist under the Safe Drinking Water Act. We need operations and 
maintenance dollars to address those, especially as new systems 
come aboard. These are highly technical systems that are going 
into our tribal nations, and that have a high capital cost. It 
is prudent that we as Tribes have the appropriate people to run 
those and the tools and the funding.
    Senator Padilla. So let me ask a very blunt question. Will 
the projects that are now funded because of the Bipartisan 
Infrastructure Law, will they be successful without funding 
operations and maintenance?
    Mr. Norton. Senator, I have to speak truthfully. The 
violations will increase, because we need certified operators 
and experienced operators to run these systems. As my 
colleagues pointed out, having the ability to maintain those 
certified operators is a difficult process. It has to do with 
the funding, salary adjustments, it has to do with competitive 
401(k)s, retirements. And if there are opportunities for tribal 
members to move on, they certainly will, because of the very 
low payments or salaries.
    Senator Padilla. I know the State of California has tried 
to fill gaps for operations and maintenance through the SAFER 
program.
    Mr. Norton. That is a very good program.
    Senator Padilla. But this is really, in my opinion, an 
interim State solution to what is fundamentally a Federal 
problem and responsibility. So a follow up question for you, 
not from an engineering perspective, not from a technical 
perspective, but can you talk about the Federal trust 
responsibility and whether we are living up to it if we fail to 
fund operations and maintenance?
    Mr. Norton. Thank you, Senator.
    The Federal trust obligation to Tribes is failing in regard 
to providing safe access to drinking water to our communities. 
I base this on the observations of both my testimony and my 
colleague, Mr. Bennon, in regard to the high violation rates of 
both health based violations and non-health based violations. 
We need to fix this problem, putting more money into the 
systems so we can have proper operations of these facilities.
    Senator Padilla. I think you have given some indicators to 
my following question, but I want to ask it for the record. 
Your testimony suggests that Congress should direct the EPA, in 
collaboration with the IHS, to evaluate all American Indian 
owned water systems regulated by the EPA to include estimating 
the annual costs associated with operation and maintenance of 
facilities.
    What do you expect this report would uncover?
    Mr. Norton. The IHS has completed an initial investigation 
of operation and maintenance. That investigation identified 
core cost needs for the different sizes of utilities, both 
wastewater and drinking water, from about $40 million for the 
lowest to $200,000 annually for the larger facilities. What we 
need is a follow up, more detailed investigation that looks at 
the costs and how to pay for these improvements, how to pay for 
the operation and maintenance and the cost of operating your 
facility, electrical costs, and having that not passed onto the 
consumer where we already have poverty rates in most of our 
reservations as high as 80 percent.
    Senator Padilla. Thank you.
    Mr. Bennon, Ms. WallowingBull, I have not forgotten you. I 
do have some additional questions, but at this point, let me 
recognize Senator Lummis for her first round of questions.
    Senator Lummis. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Ms. WallowingBull, I understand that there are regulatory 
requirements that cause difficulty for Tribes meeting their 
obligations under the Safe Drinking Water Act. One of the 
things we have heard is that the tight timeframe to have water 
on the reservation sampled in an approved lab can be a 
struggle.
    Have you had that problem? If so, how can we address this?
    Ms. WallowingBull. Thank you, Senator Lummis.
    Yes, we face those same issues. Part of it is because the 
lab, as I stated before, the lab locations where we have, where 
we take the sampling are in the local communities which are in 
Lander and Riverton. That is where we submit our sampling.
    One of the sampling places closed. So it is hard to, that 
timeline, it is expensive. So I think just allowing us a little 
more time to get the sampling in, because I know that is a 
violation when we are late for turning in sampling. But we are 
such a rural location, it is hard to meet those demands all the 
time.
    Senator Lummis. One of the sites closed. Do you know the 
reason it closed?
    Ms. WallowingBull. No, I am not sure.
    Senator Lummis. I might look into that.
    When it comes to Tribes utilizing the funding Congress has 
set up, I sort of get the sense that you are spending a lot of 
time filling out paperwork for grant programs. Can Congress do 
a better job of streamlining the grant application process? Do 
you have any recommendations for us in doing so?
    Ms. WallowingBull. When you are talking about the EPA 
funding, I believe that EPA should be working with the Tribes 
directly. I know that their funding is funneled through IHS 
currently. And the process for applying for grants through IHS 
can be time consuming and tedious. They have a scoring system, 
so you have to score really well. Your projects are, you have 
got to meet different areas of criteria. As I said, it is 
different agencies. But I think when you are dealing with 
bigger projects in EPA, I think EPA should be responsible for 
working with the Tribe directly, not funneling the funding 
through other agencies.
    Senator Lummis. That is really good advice. That is just 
red tape upon red tape. It hurts the Tribes as much as anybody, 
perhaps more than anybody, who is dealing with compliance 
issues.
    Mr. Norton, we have talked about the struggle to find 
trained and certified work forces. Who sets those salaries? Why 
is this an area that is so underpaid?
    Mr. Norton. It is based upon the hookups; it is based upon 
the services to the community. When you have a rural community 
like Hoopa, the reservation I am from, there are 800 hookups 
that are extended over long pipelines. And the cost and 
maintenance of those providing water to our tribal households 
is costly.
    So we have to look at other subsidies for paying a 
competitive wage. And if I may, we just had a tribal operator 
leave our reservation because he was making a substandard 
salary. He has the educational background, but he moved to 
Sacramento and is making three times the amount.
    It is not because he wants to leave the reservation. Our 
ancestors have been there for thousands of years, our families 
are there. It is the difficulty of meeting the salaries, of 
having experienced and qualified, certified operators for our 
wastewater and drinking water systems.
    Senator Lummis. So when Ms. WallowingBull said that there 
are five systems among the two communities, Ethete and Arapaho, 
so those are spread out as well. Is that the big problem?
    Ms. WallowingBull. Yes, as I stated, in Ethete we have a 
water system, but in Arapaho, we have two water systems. But we 
have five lagoons between both communities. So both communities 
are separate, so the water line ends. So the areas in between 
those communities are on wells.
    Senator Lummis. Thank you. I appreciate it.
    Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
    Senator Padilla. Thank you.
    We have been joined by the EPW Chairman, Senator Carper. 
Let me recognize him for any statement and questions of the 
witnesses. Senator Ricketts will be next.
    Senator Carper. Thanks, Mr. Chairman.
    Let me just say as an aside, my staff have been watching 
how well the two of you work together, and your staffs. One of 
the things we try to do on this Committee is we want to get 
good stuff done for our planet, for our environment. We also 
try to build bipartisan support for a lot of the initiatives we 
take up. You set a good example for us. I just want to say that 
to begin with.
    Welcome to all of you.
    Ken Norton, did you fight Muhammad Ali, how many, three 
times?
    Mr. Norton. A couple of times, yes.
    [Laughter.]
    Senator Carper. I watched two of those fights. You look 
great for a guy who went 15 rounds with Muhammad Ali three 
times.
    [Laughter.]
    Senator Carper. For those in the audience wondering, what 
is he talking about, another Ken Norton did fight Muhammad Ali 
I think three times. Ken won one, and Muhammad won two.
    Anyway, we welcome you, and Mr. Bennon, and Ms. 
WallowingBull.
    Where are you from?
    Ms. WallowingBull. Wyoming.
    Senator Carper. And Mr. Bennon?
    Mr. Bennon. Phoenix, Arizona.
    Senator Carper. OK.
    Mr. Norton. Northern California, Hoopa.
    Senator Carper. OK, good. We are happy to see you all. 
Thanks again for helping us for helping us. This is an 
important issue, we care about these issues a lot, and I know 
you do too, so thank you.
    I think it was in April of this year, the Environmental 
Protection Agency released its latest drinking water needs 
survey and assessment. It revealed that the Native American 
Tribes and Indian Native villages would need over $4 billion, I 
think it was over $4 billion in investment to fully meet their 
drinking water infrastructure needs, which is a staggering, 
staggering unmet need.
    Mr. Bennon and Mr. Norton, how do your organizations work 
with EPA and other Federal partners to identify and prioritize 
drinking water and wastewater infrastructure projects on tribal 
lands?
    Mr. Bennon. Chairman Carper, the Inter Tribal Council of 
Arizona works very closely with EPA and IHS. We try to support 
the dialogue between the Tribes, the tribal utilities, and the 
Federal agencies. But it is pretty primarily that dialogue that 
generates the understanding of need.
    What we do see directly working with the operators is that 
this is just a constant problem, because of the lack of 
operations and maintenance funding. We keep building 
infrastructure, and it is just like a car that ages that has to 
be maintained and kept up. If it doesn't, then we have to go 
buy another car. That is the same deal with the infrastructure.
    Then of course, the remote geographic isolation of a lot of 
these rural tribal systems, the economics of the typical model 
for operations just doesn't really fit. So I think that is the 
piece that is missing. Infrastructure is needed, yes, but the 
other side of the coin is needed as well, operations and 
maintenance.
    Senator Carper. All right, thank you.
    Mr. Norton.
    Mr. Norton. Yes, I echo Mr. Bennon's thoughts. The National 
Tribal Water Council has representatives from all the regions, 
tribal representatives and from the State of Alaska. What we 
are hearing is the state of the art technology is being 
implemented in Indian Country, but we need the capacity to 
maintain those systems over the long term, so these highly 
technical and costly investments from the American public are 
maintained over time and the operation and maintenance of those 
systems is essential to do so.
    Senator Carper. All right, thank you for that.
    I have one more question for you, ma'am. Earlier this 
summer, the Environmental Protection Agency announced that 
over, I want to say almost $240 million in funding would be 
made available to Tribes during fiscal year 2023 for drinking 
water and wastewater projects. Much of this funding was made 
possible by the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law, which really has 
its roots right here in this room, this Committee. We reported 
it out unanimously to pass on the floor, I think by 89 to 2. 
Just an amazingly strong vote.
    But while this is a meaningful investment, we know that 
projects on tribal lands often face unique challenges and may 
cost more on average than other water systems. You have alluded 
to that already.
    Ms. WallowingBull, would you please explain for us some of 
the unique challenges that you have seen tribal communities 
experience when building drinking water and wastewater systems? 
As a corollary to this, part of that question would be, how 
might the Federal Government work alongside State and local 
partners to help address or alleviate some of those obstacles?
    Ms. WallowingBull. Yes. As stated in my testimony, the 
biggest roadblock we face in any of our projects is the right 
of way process.
    Senator Carper. The right of way?
    Ms. WallowingBull. The right of way process. As I have 
stated, it has been an issue for us on every single project 
that we have. I know the regulations were updated in 2016, the 
C.F.R. regulations for the right of way process. However, it 
still continues to be an issue for a lot of the projects when 
we can get State and Federal funds obligated for any project. 
And once it is obligated, we are always just holding, just 
waiting it out, the project, because of the right of way 
approval.
    So that is always the main issue that we face. But just 
this year, we have had more meetings and more relationships 
with EPA, which I think we are headed in the right direction. 
We have a better working relationship with EPA. I think it is 
just the beginning. We still have a lot of issues and problems 
that they haven't seen, or we can identify them. But it is just 
the beginning of them getting involved with a lot of the work 
that we have going on.
    Senator Carper. All right, thanks.
    My time is expired, Mr. Chairman. I would just like to 
briefly read a sentence or two of my next question, and then 
ask our witnesses to answer for the record. We don't have to do 
it here today. Could I do that, just very briefly?
    Senator Padilla. Go ahead.
    Senator Carper. I want to ask, and we will follow up after 
the hearing with requests in writing, and ask each of you to 
share with us your experience supporting tribal communities 
that lack access to safe, reliable water, and how that affects 
public health and a community's general welfare. We will send 
that to you in writing and ask you to respond to it in writing.
    Thank you very much for joining us today. Nice to see you.
    Senator Padilla. Thank you very much.
    Senator Ricketts.
    Senator Ricketts. Thank you very much, Chairman Padilla, 
and Ranking Member Lummis, for holding this important hearing 
today. Thank you to our witnesses for coming here today and 
talking about your perspectives. I think it is a great 
opportunity to be able to share some of the challenges that we 
have in our tribal communities with regard to drinking water.
    I would like to take this opportunity to discuss the EPA's 
proposed rule for the Federal baseline Water Quality Standards, 
the WQS, for Indian reservations. I recognize the importance to 
tribal communities in developing water quality standards within 
the Clean Water Act. I have several concerns with the proposed 
rule, only that all tribal nations should have to treat to 
State designations prior to the application for the water 
quality standards, and the EPA should also hold the Tribes to 
the same water quality standards process as the States under 
the Clean Water Act. This process should include public 
participation and comments when reviewing water quality 
standards. I think that is actually one of the things that, Ms. 
WallowingBull, you were talking about, just having that full 
blown EPA participation.
    Tribes must also equally prove proficient in technical and 
managerial skills for adoption and implementation. To boost 
coordination there should be consultation with the delegate 
State agency as well as data transparency. EPA has two roles 
within the Water Quality Standards. One is to intervene only 
when a State or Tribe is failing to meet the requirements of 
the Clean Water Act, and two is to provide technical services 
like nationally recommended water quality criteria to States 
and Tribes when setting Water Quality Standards.
    This role for States to lead in protecting water quality 
while considering other implications to communities is 
important, and the EPA's proposed rule undermines this division 
of responsibility.
    So Ms. WallowingBull, can you speak to the importance, 
because you talked a little bit about dealing directly with EPA 
rather than IHS, can you talk about the importance of Tribes 
being allowed to take the lead in water quality plans and 
criteria?
    Ms. WallowingBull. If we were responsible for taking the 
lead?
    Senator Ricketts. Yes, the importance, right. Again, the 
point I am trying to make here is that we ought to allow States 
and Tribes to be able to take the lead in this because they 
know the local situations the best.
    Ms. WallowingBull. Yes.
    Senator Ricketts. You talked about, for example, the right 
of way issues. Can you talk about the importance of having 
Tribes take the lead when it comes to creating water quality 
standards with the EPA?
    Ms. WallowingBull. Yes, definitely. We are a sovereign 
nation, but we do work well with the State. We get State 
funding from Wyoming Water Development for water projects. So 
we do work well with them when it comes to funding for 
projects. They understand our systems.
    But as you said, we know our systems. We have an 
engineering firm that we currently consult with which has 
worked with us for 9 years. So we have knowledgeable people. As 
a Tribe, we know how we want to move forward. But again, it is 
always down to the funding issue.
    But it is not, as we said, the funding issue, the right of 
way process, everything is timely because as we said, we have a 
water break every week. We are constantly fixing those issues. 
But yet we are still trying to look at the bigger picture. Our 
goal is to create a master plan. But again, that goes back to 
who is going to fund that.
    Senator Ricketts. Did you say you just were starting to 
begin conversations with the EPA? Does that indicate you hadn't 
had direct contact with EPA in the past?
    Ms. WallowingBull. The working relationship was not that 
great in the past. So we are working closely with them now. We 
actually are working, for our wastewater systems, we are on a 
compliance action plan. So they are working with us for our 
wastewater systems. They regulate our water.
    But this year alone, we have met with several different 
committees from EPA, or several different groups of people from 
EPA. So they are trying to improve the working relationship 
with the Tribe, so they are making that effort to come to the 
reservation and assist us. They are aware of the issues we 
have.
    Senator Ricketts. Good. I think that is always going to be 
the best regulatory environment, is when the EPA allows the 
local people to take the lead and supplies that supporting 
authority, whether it is technical assistance, and of course, 
you are talking about not only the infrastructure dollars but 
also the maintenance and operation dollars as well going 
forward.
    Thank you again to all of our witnesses for being here 
today and describing some of the challenges to making sure we 
are providing safe, high quality drinking water on our tribal 
reservations.
    Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
    Senator Padilla. Thank you very much.
    We have been joined by Senator Kelly.
    Senator Kelly. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Let me first say thank you for holding this hearing. Water 
is a critical issue in Arizona, especially for our 22 federally 
recognized Tribes, and especially as this drought worsens. It 
has been going on for now over 20 years.
    I am really glad we have the opportunity to be joined today 
by Brian Bennon from the Inter Tribal Council for Arizona, or 
ITCA. Brian has worked for Tribes for nearly 30 years. I think 
you have been with ITCA since 2010. In his role, he provides 
training certification and technical assistance services for 
drinking water and wastewater operating personnel, working with 
Tribes in Arizona and throughout the western part of the United 
States.
    So I am really glad you could join us today, Brian. Thank 
you, and thank you to the other folks for being here.
    My first question is for Brian. As I noted, you have worked 
with Tribes on tribal water issues for a long time. As Arizona 
and much of the United States has struggled with these long 
term drought conditions, the needs of tribal communities seem 
to have changed over the length of your career.
    Are the needs of tribal communities and tribal water 
systems different now than they were 20 years ago? If so, can 
you explain what the differences are?
    Mr. Bennon. Senator Kelly, thank you very much for that 
question.
    Yes, I would say that they have changed, but they have 
gotten more complex. A lot of the same issues exist that we had 
decades ago, but there are now all kinds of factors. 
Variability has directly increased in hydrology. We are working 
with many Tribes on developing drought contingency plans and 
looking at emergency response planning for the drinking water 
and wastewater utilities, tribal utilities that we wouldn't 
have expected to have these types of issues, for example, 
Tribes in Alaska or Tribes in Montana, also Tribes in the 
Southwest.
    But this is starting to become a very complex, widespread 
phenomenon of trying to develop resiliency. Of course, EPA has 
the resiliency program for water and wastewater utilities. 
Those resources are being utilized right now. But we have a lot 
more work to do in Indian Country to help build resiliency.
    Senator Kelly. Brian, I am curious, I was looking at the 
poster board up here that says Native American households are 
19 times more likely to lack indoor pipes for running water and 
sanitation. That number, I might be wrong about this, that 
actually struck me for Arizona as probably being low. I am 
trying to get your sense, in the State of Arizona, what do you 
think that number would be?
    Mr. Bennon. Senator Kelly, this is a really tricky thing to 
try to get numbers on. I can tell you first hand that we have 
had many, many staff members come through ITCA and many 
operators that we work with that personally have this situation 
in their upbringing of not having plumbing in their homes as 
they were growing up.
    This is an issue of not only bringing pipes to the homes, 
bringing these services, but also operations and maintenance. 
These systems, once you build them, they need long term 
sustainability of operations and maintenance. That is the key 
issue that this panel is bringing forward today.
    Senator Kelly. Last year, I spent some time with an Arizona 
family who lacked running water in their home for decades. 
Recently, through some programs they were able to get access to 
running water in their home. It is such a challenge for Native 
American communities in our State.
    In the remaining time, are there any lessons learned that 
some of the relevant Federal agencies like the EPA, maybe the 
Indian Health Service, and others should learn to respond to 
some of these changing needs of tribal communities?
    Mr. Bennon. Senator Kelly, yes, I think one of the 
recommendations that we have in our testimony is increased 
coordination amongst the different Federal agencies. A lot of 
entities or agencies are working on these problems, but there 
seems to be a need for more communication and coordination 
directly with Tribes and amongst the agencies themselves.
    Senator Kelly. How do we make that happen?
    Mr. Bennon. I think there are a couple of mechanisms 
already in place. There has been the Federal Infrastructure 
Task Force, which has been a great mechanism. But there is a 
lack of tribal participation, tribal community participation in 
that dialogue.
    Then more on the local level, EPA and IHS have a model in 
place of technical assistance providers coordination meetings. 
They call them TAPs. These TAP meetings do happen in certain 
areas, but there are other areas in Indian Country where TAPS 
don't exist. And I think expansion of that model would be very 
helpful for Indian Country.
    Senator Kelly. Thank you.
    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Senator Padilla. Thank you, Senator Kelly.
    Senator Sullivan.
    Senator Sullivan. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    I want to thank the witnesses here. I am a big fan of our 
Native American communities, Alaska Native communities. One 
thing I always like to brag about for our Alaska Native and 
Lower 48 Indian communities is the patriotism, special 
patriotism. Alaska Natives and Lower 48 Indians serve at higher 
rates in the military than any other ethnic group in the 
country. That is very special.
    So to all your members and tribal members, tell them thank 
you. It is not noticed enough. It is remarkable, because let's 
face it, during a lot of our country's history, our Native 
people were discriminated against and all kinds of horrible 
atrocities. Yet generation after generation, they step up and 
serve America in the military. It is remarkable. So thank you 
for that.
    I also think it is outrageous that we have, whether it is 
reservations or over 30 communities in Alaska that don't have 
running water or flush toilets. The richest country in the 
world, some of the most patriotic communities in the world, and 
we can't get running water or flush toilets to them. So this is 
a passion of mine. It is a passion of mine, especially in 
Alaska, where we have so many communities, I was just out in a 
number of our Alaska Native communities, rural communities that 
don't have running water and flush toilets. We need to do more.
    Can I just get very quickly from the witnesses your sense 
on, is there enough funding to address these basic needs? 
During COVID, they told many Alaska Native communities to wash 
your hands five times a day. Oh, wait, you don't have running 
water. How are you going to do that?
    So what do you think the best way to do it is? I will just 
ask each of the witnesses.
    But I do want to make one other point, which I do a lot on 
this Committee. There is a lot of discussion on racial justice, 
environmental equity, the terms the Biden administration puts 
out. Unfortunately, for my constituents who are indigenous, 
there is a big asterisk with the Biden administration. It is 
racial justice, environmental equity, but if you are an Alaska 
Native, if you are an Alaska Native, this Administration is out 
to get you.
    I just sent a text, I hope the news picks up on it, to 
Secretary Haaland. I have a group of Alaska Native leaders from 
the North Slope of Alaska, elected leaders, they're tribal 
leaders, Alaska Native Corporation leaders who have tried to 
meet with Deb Haaland six different times. They fly 5,000 miles 
to Washington, DC. She and the President are undertaking 
policies that are devastating their region. North Slope, that 
is the national petroleum reserve Alaska, ANWR. They never get 
consulted. They are in town again. Six times Deb Haaland has 
said, no, I am not going to meet with you.
    So I have sent her a text saying, Madam Secretary, do the 
right thing, damn it, and meet with my constituents, please. 
Alaska Natives, please. OK? We will see what she does. Pretty 
sure she is going to ignore them. Sorry, I had to vent on that.
    But to the point on where we should be, what is the most 
effective way, I know we have different Tribes, different 
reservations, to make sure people get basic running water and 
flush toilets? Is that to much to ask in America? I will go to 
each of the witnesses.
    Mr. Norton. I can start, thank you, Senator Sullivan.
    As we heard before, the EPA just completed the drinking 
water infrastructure needs assessment. That identified a need 
of $4 billion.
    Senator Sullivan. OK. For all of Indian Country?
    Mr. Norton. For Indian Country, yes, including Alaska 
Natives.
    Senator Sullivan. Oh, OK. They think that would be enough 
to get everybody running water and flush toilets?
    Mr. Norton. The issue at hand is, providing access is one 
part of the puzzle. Providing the sanitation and the drinking 
water facilities. It is the operation and maintaining those 
systems that is the difficulty.
    Senator Sullivan. Oh, right.
    Mr. Norton. So once you have a start of the facility, do 
you have the operators, do you have the people to maintain 
those? And the American public significantly put their 
investment into these systems. And we as Native people want to 
make sure they are operated over a long period of time, and 
serve our communities.
    Senator Sullivan. Does the $4 billion cover that, or is 
that in addition?
    Mr. Norton. I believe it is a, it only deals with the 
construction.
    Senator Sullivan. OK, right.
    Mr. Norton. It doesn't deal with the operation and 
maintenance component.
    Senator Sullivan. OK. Thank you. That operation and 
maintenance issue is a giant issue we see in Alaska all the 
time.
    Mr. Bennon. Senator Sullivan, this is a very interesting 
situation that Alaska Natives have. We have been providing 
training courses, this gets back to the operations and 
maintenance side of things. Operators need to get trained, and 
then they go through the certification process. The trainings 
that we have had for Alaska Native villages have been some of 
the most heavily attended, standing room only, types of 
situations. The scenarios that were described by the operators 
were remarkable, having literally sled dogs and snowmobiles to 
get to the various communities.
    I understand that the engineering side of things is very 
unique and specialized. But the situations are the same. 
Infrastructure construction, the dollar amounts I have no idea. 
But it is going to be very expensive. And then to maintain 
those systems, operations and maintenance.
    So the process is all the same. It is just, is it being 
addressed adequately for Alaska Natives? I suspect definitely 
not.
    Senator Sullivan. No, it is not. It is not. Thank you.
    Ms. WallowingBull.
    Ms. WallowingBull. Senator Sullivan, I agree with my 
colleagues here. The operation and maintenance has always been 
an issue. We face the same thing. I stated in my testimony, all 
of our water and sewer are not certified. So we face those same 
issues.
    But I don't think, just looking at when you were mentioning 
dollars, I know that we did a cost estimate for our systems 
alone. We have two systems, with three water systems and five 
lagoons, which is totally different from all the other 
reservations.
    Just the cost estimate for 2017 was $30 million. That has 
tripled now. But that wasn't just for fixing what we think 
needs to be fixed, because our system is not uniform. Our 
lines, as we said, are undersized, but we go from a 4 inch to 
12 inch. It is not a uniform system.
    So we, the supplies we need, we have to go 2 hours away, 
because our local businesses do not carry any of the supplies 
to fix our pipelines anymore.
    Senator Sullivan. Every place is unique. But to me, Mr. 
Chairman, this is an issue that I think should unite Democrats 
and Republicans on getting our First Peoples the ability to 
have clean water. It shouldn't be that hard.
    So I am a big advocate for this, particularly in my State. 
But in all the reservations in America, again, some of the most 
patriotic Americans in the country have to use honey buckets, 
what we call honey buckets in Alaska. Well, they are not sweet 
smelling, I will tell you that.
    So we will keep working this. I appreciate the witnesses 
being here on a really important topic for my State, certainly.
    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Senator Padilla. Thank you, Senator Sullivan. I appreciate 
your comments. I am sensing bipartisan support building for 
this effort to prioritize investing in operations and 
maintenance, not just the initial construction. It only makes 
sense for the Federal Government to financially support the 
longer term viability of significant initial investments.
    I want to ask some additional questions on some additional 
issues. I want to turn back to work force and work force 
development. Last week, the EPA released its seventh Drinking 
Water Infrastructure Needs Survey and Assessment in which 
State, local, and tribal water systems reported that hiring 
difficulties will increase over the next decade. I think we 
have already acknowledged the current challenges. These 
difficulties will increase over the next decade. Small water 
systems specifically cited their inability to hire full time 
employees and offer competitive benefits.
    We know that this is a national challenge. We also know 
that tribal water systems face their own unique issues with 
work force and credentialing.
    Mr. Norton, you were asked about this earlier, so I will 
afford Mr. Bennon and Ms. WallowingBull an opportunity to weigh 
in here.
    We will start with you, Ms. WallowingBull. Can you speak to 
the unique challenges of hiring and retaining staff?
    Ms. WallowingBull. Yes. As I stated, we have six water and 
wastewater operators. It is a different, demanding job for our 
systems, because we have water breaks every week. The rigorous 
hours and the demand, once somebody in our system is without 
water, it is complete chaos.
    As I said, our system is not uniform. So when we have a 
water break, half of the town is out, because we can't isolate 
fixing that water break. It is always, once there is a water 
break, a big part of the community is going to be without 
water.
    It is hard finding those dedicated individuals, especially 
within our community, to want to become certified, just because 
of the backlash they do get for just not being able to provide, 
especially when there are water breaks, it is always an issue.
    We are working with Wyoming Rural Water on an 
apprenticeship program to start certifying more of our water 
operators. So they are committed to a 2 year program to become 
level one certification. So that is a positive step forward for 
our community and Wyoming Rural Water. That is something we are 
working on right now. They haven't started it yet, but that is 
something new.
    Senator Padilla. Good. I do have questions about 
certification. That is an important piece here.
    First, I want to ask Mr. Bennon to chime in. Do you have 
any suggested strategies for increasing the number and the work 
force, number of operators needed to run these systems?
    Mr. Bennon. Chairman Padilla, yes, thank you very much for 
this question.
    I recommend a three pronged approach. The first is, you 
have to have viable wages and benefits at a utility to attract 
the talent that is needed to operate these systems. The only 
way to do that is to have financial viability for operations 
and maintenance. Because that is where the salaries are 
supported to have the finances for the utility. That is No. 1.
    The second is, and it is not just specific to Indian 
Country, this is for the entire water industry in general. We 
have to have a top down and a bottom up approach of changing 
perceptions about the important role of the water operators. So 
many people just take it for granted, we turn on the tap or use 
the restroom, it just happens. Nobody understands that there 
are teams of people, or should be teams of people working 
behind the scenes to make that happen.
    So we are talking about public service announcements, 
getting the general public, getting decisionmakers to 
understand that very important role of these men and women that 
operate the water systems.
    Then the third point goes back to the fundamentals, 
operator certification. We really need to take another look at 
the credentialing industry. It is kind of a mixed bag across 
the country of the way primacy agencies handle it. There is a 
lack of consistency. But we are seeing, unfortunately, the 
Inter Tribal Council of Arizona, the operator certification 
program, the passing rates for the certification exams are 
dropping. The exams get more and more complex as the industry 
gets more complex.
    We are dealing with individuals entering into this work 
field that, some of them have college degrees but most of them 
have just high school or GEDs. You look at the Department of 
Labor competency model for water and wastewater operators, 
there is this pyramid with all these bricks of all those 
domains of knowledge. It is astonishing what they have to know, 
what is on the certification exams. Then the years of 
experience of putting it into practice.
    We have to be careful with where the barriers are. We want 
folks to enter into this career field. And if there are too 
many barriers in place, which I think they are, maybe we should 
look at it again. I think the infrastructure task force is a 
great starting point for looking at that.
    Senator Padilla. Thank you.
    Ms. WallowingBull referenced being on the verge of a 
partnership between Tribes and other water agencies in Wyoming. 
There is both official and unofficial in California.
    Mr. Bennon, can you tell us why there are no Federal 
guidelines for tribal wastewater operator certification?
    Mr. Bennon. Chairman Padilla, I couldn't tell you the 
reason why. I can tell you that it doesn't exist. I know that 
EPA is aware of the situation and that there needs to be some 
desire or will or impetus to create such a thing like exists in 
drinking water. For Indian Country, we don't have such 
guidance. What that means is we don't have a way of classifying 
wastewater infrastructure. It begins with classifying the 
facility, and then the level determines what level of 
certification is needed.
    That doesn't exist right now. We don't have methodologies 
for operator certification for wastewater. And that needs to be 
created.
    Senator Padilla. So yes or no, would there be value in 
establishing that?
    Mr. Bennon. Absolutely, it is needed.
    Senator Padilla. Is it an ``and'' or an ``or'' value added 
by reciprocity of certification between different States to 
help tribal systems?
    Mr. Bennon. Reciprocity is the process of equivalency from 
one jurisdiction to another. So because tribal boundaries don't 
coincide with State boundaries, we do have operators where this 
is a very significant situation.
    Career mobility, we talk about operators leaving to take 
careers elsewhere, but the fundamental issue of reciprocity for 
tribal operators is who is the primacy agency for their 
facility, and what regulations are applicable for their 
utility. That is what there is a lot of, it is gray. Nobody 
really, it is hard to figure that out, especially when primacy 
agencies have varying degrees of regulations.
    So figuring out what regulations are applicable to their 
utility and what type of training and certification is needed, 
that is where reciprocity comes in. Having a clear distinction 
about the primacy agencies and regulations that are applicable 
to them, that is the issue.
    Senator Padilla. Thank you.
    We have spent time on the need to invest in operations and 
maintenance. We have talked about some of the work force 
difficulties and challenges. I want to spend a few minutes 
talking about water quality. A statistic that many of us are 
focused on today is that Native American households are 19 
times more likely than white households to lack indoor 
plumbing. It is so shocking, we made a poster.
    But the reality is that even this devastating statistic 
doesn't capture water quality, whether that indoor plumbing is 
actually delivering clean, safe drinking water and water for 
sanitation.
    Mr. Norton, your written testimony notes that health based 
drinking water violation rates for tribal water facilities are 
higher than the rates for water systems regulated by States. 
Why is that? And what can we do to improve not only water 
access, but also water quality in tribal systems?
    Mr. Norton. Thank you for the question, Senator Padilla.
    It comes down to having experience and certified operators. 
And what we see in Indian Country is the difficulty of 
maintaining these operators over time, longevity. Our State 
counterparts, they have multiple operators that specialize in 
certain aspects of the drinking water facility and the 
wastewater facility. What we have in Indian Country is an 
operator that wears multiple hats. It has to do multiple tasks 
at multiple times. When this operator is down or has to do 
other personal business, the utility suffers, or the person 
leaves due to salary inequalities.
    And the replacement, what we see in Indian Country when we 
replace the immediate need and addressing those health based 
violations, Tribes are forced to hire consultants at at least 
four times, three times or four times the cost, Senator. It is 
another burden on the Tribe that is unable to pay for the 
operation and maintenance. And it can't be passed on to the 
consumer.
    Those are probably the main reasons why we start seeing 
health based violations in Indian Country. It has to do with 
the operation and maintenance of those facilities.
    Senator Padilla. Thank you.
    Mr. Bennon, I see you are nodding quite a bit. Is there 
anything you would like to add?
    Mr. Bennon. Chairman Padilla, yes. Definitely operations 
and maintenance is a major contributing factor. Most operators 
understand that it is all about protecting public health. It is 
the No. 1 priority mission of being a water and wastewater 
operator.
    The issue also is that these are designed to protect public 
health, but they are very complicated and take years to 
understand. So things are not helped when the certification 
process does not cover or does not measure operators' knowledge 
of the regulations. And it falls on local jurisdictions to 
measure that.
    ITCA just got through the process of creating an assessment 
for tribal operators on the regulations that EPA implements on 
reservation lands. And the only way we could do it is to have 
the regulations at the fingertips of the operators on 
electronic tablets that they take out into the field. You can 
do a word search. If you were to print these things out, we 
tried, it is over 2,500 pages. But to have that as a tool for 
the operators is something that we just started this year. We 
are hoping over time this will start to help.
    Senator Padilla. Question for you. Is there something about 
the nature, the fundamental nature of the different types of 
water agencies that impacts for better or worse access to safe, 
clean drinking water by the different types of agencies, tribal 
versus other public versus private water systems?
    Mr. Bennon. Yes, Chairman Padilla. The 1,044 public water 
systems in Indian Country, according to EPA's data base, the 
majority are tribally owned but there are significant numbers 
also that have different types of ownership. We see differences 
according to the different types of ownership. For example, the 
casinos, they have a lot of resources. So we see well staffed, 
well operated utilities.
    On the other side of things, we see these public-private, 
public water systems at schools, whether they are tribally 
controlled schools or federally controlled schools. But a lot 
of these schools in these very geographically remote locations 
have their own water systems. Those are the ones that have very 
limited resources. They are typically, the operators are 
typically the custodial staff of the school, and they are 
handling the maintenance of the grounds and everything. And 
they have practically no budgets whatsoever.
    We see huge needs there. We see private enterprises in 
Indian Country that have water systems, such as mobile home 
parks and that type of thing. And we do see very significant 
issues with some of those types of ownership, public water 
systems.
    Senator Padilla. Thank you.
    There are a few more issues I would like to cover, but in 
the interest of time, we will also offer questions for the 
record after the hearing and provide some time for you to 
respond.
    The last issue I do want to raise for today has to do with 
water affordability. Different than access and quality, 
affordability. I mentioned earlier that in the first 
Subcommittee hearing, we focused on the issue of water 
affordability and small water system assistance, because unlike 
other forms of infrastructure, like bridges and roads, clean 
drinking water isn't primarily funded by taxes. Instead, more 
than 90 percent of the average utility's revenues comes 
directly from ratepayers.
    But unlike State and local governments, who can also use 
tax revenue to supplement revenue from water bills, tribal 
governments don't have such a tax base and instead rely on 
essential government services like drinking water and 
wastewater for Federal support.
    Mr. Bennon, your written testimony notes that over 90 
percent of tribal public water systems are classified as small 
or very small systems, serving 3,300 or fewer customers. So not 
a big customer base to spread capital costs across. This 
obviously presents challenges when structuring rates.
    How helpful would a permanent water rate assistance program 
be, whether it be LIHWAP or an EPA program?
    Mr. Bennon. Mr. Chairman, the need for some type of a 
subsidy to help bridge this gap, where the scales of economy of 
the water utility model starts to fail, there needs to be some 
type of funding mechanism to help utilities bridge that 
difference there.
    The LIHWAP program has been hugely successful, but focuses 
narrowly just on the one aspect of the utility revenues, and 
that is the ratepayer. So if you have a very small population, 
trying to figure out where that sweet spot is of setting the 
rates to cover all the costs, we do have technical assistance 
support out there to help utilities do that.
    But my suggestion is that there should be another funding 
mechanism to bridge that difference, to work hand in hand with 
LIHWAP, but also primarily looking at the very technical side 
of things, not the economics so much side of things of the 
customer, but of what the community and the utility unique 
needs are.
    It is a very technical process of establishing rate 
structure. There is definitely a need for an additional funding 
mechanism to assist small, rural Tribes with that.
    Senator Padilla. Ms. WallowingBull, will you share a little 
bit about your utility's experience with LIHWAP, and whether 
you think Congress should fund a permanent water rate 
assistance program?
    Ms. WallowingBull. Chairman Padilla, yes. Actually we 
received LIHWAP funding for water assistance this year, or last 
year. I know it has been a big thing for our Tribe. Our water 
billing currently is not in a great situation. Our water 
billing system is not enforced, so it is difficult to get 
everybody on the system. We are a flat rate, but even if 
everybody was to pay, that wouldn't even sustain our system. It 
would just cover the operation, barely. It wouldn't even 
supplement salaries or anything else.
    So the operation and maintenance is continuously an issue. 
But the LIHWAP actually did assist a lot of individuals, as the 
funding goes back to the Tribe, which helps us. So I think 
continuously providing that funding would be beneficial. We 
also, because we are billing, and we work with USDA Rural 
Development, they also have a program that assists with low 
income for water bills.
    Senator Padilla. Thank you.
    Mr. Norton.
    Mr. Norton. Thank you.
    The LIHWAP program was very successful for the Hoopa Valley 
Indian Reservation. It was based upon an annual income and the 
majority of the annual income in Hoopa is below poverty level 
at 80 percent.
    Having the LIHWAP program continue is essential in our 
Native American communities. As my colleague Mr. Bennon pointed 
out, if we can bridge that gap somehow where we can have the 
assistance of these to the ratepayer and then have the 
assistance from the Indian Health Service through their statute 
of O&M and helping offset those costs, it would be a mutually 
acceptable program that the Tribes would embrace.
    Senator Padilla. Wonderful.
    Before we conclude the hearing, I do want to take a moment 
to once again thank Chairman Carper and Ranking Member Capito 
and the Subcommittee Ranking Member Lummis for making today's 
hearing possible. I appreciate the efforts of our collective 
staff as well.
    I especially want to thank our witness for your thoughtful 
testimony and your ongoing efforts to improve the state of 
tribal water in this country. As I mentioned earlier, today's 
hearing is about more than just the transformational 
investments we are making in water infrastructure. It is about 
fulfilling our Federal trust responsibilities to Tribes that 
deserve a guarantee from the Federal Government to a safe, 
healthy, and prosperous life. Those responsibilities don't end 
after the enactment of one historic infrastructure bill, and 
they are not fulfilled by periodic check ins just to say we 
have done our job. This is a constant and growing nation to 
nation relationship that goes both ways.
    And yes, we have a moral responsibility to continue to 
serve Native American Tribes who were forcibly displaced from 
their homelands. I want to make clear for folks back home: The 
problems discussed today, this isn't a matter of technical 
infrastructure jargon or policy speak. This is about making 
sure that a parent in Indian Country can turn on the tap and 
not fear they will get their child sick by giving them a glass 
of water, to making sure a family on a reservation doesn't have 
to conserve every last drop of water to bathe themselves 
because they are not sure when the next shipment of water will 
come in. It is about making sure an entire community doesn't 
have to worry about one lightning strike or one burst pipe or 
extreme weather, what that could mean to the loss of all clean 
water. And of course, for countless Native Americans, it is 
about knowing that the U.S. Government values you and your 
family's health enough to invest in the resources that will 
keep you safe.
    So I take this responsibility seriously, and clearly, with 
multiple hearings this week and next, the U.S. Senate is 
demonstrating that we all take this issue seriously.
    Now it is time to move beyond the initial excitement over 
an influx of funding to tribal communities through the 
Bipartisan Infrastructure Law and follow it up to make sure it 
is accessible and implemented thoughtfully. Because we have got 
to make sure we are making long term, sustained investments in 
water systems throughout the country.
    Once again, I thank our witnesses today for helping us to 
better understand some of the potential next steps we can take 
to bolster tribal communities' water systems. As Mr. Norton 
pointed out, that could include directing the EPA and the 
Indian Health Service to evaluate the specific needs of all 
tribal public water systems to determine what it would take to 
fund a Federal operations and maintenance program. Or as Mr. 
Bennon pointed out, that could include improving work force 
development, so that Tribes have access to water and wastewater 
system operators that can provide safe drinking water and 
adequate sanitation services.
    And as I called for in the first Subcommittee hearing, we 
need to fund a permanent water rate assistance program akin to 
LIHEAP for energy assistance to ensure that Native American 
households can afford water bills. We need a whole of 
government approach to fully funding Federal programs related 
to tribal drinking water and wastewater, including the programs 
in the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law that we authorized but 
didn't fund.
    So I look forward to advancing legislation in the months 
ahead that lives up to our trust responsibility to provide 
clean water throughout Indian Country. I want to thank you all 
again for being here. I look forward to the follow up.
    With that, this hearing is adjourned.
    [Whereupon, at 4:02 p.m., the hearing was adjourned.]
    [Additional material submitted for the record follows:]

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