[Senate Hearing 118-228]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
S. Hrg. 118-228
COMMITTEES ON VETERANS' AFFAIRS AND ARMED SERVICES: MILITARY TO
CIVILIAN TRANSITION: ENSURING SUCCESS AFTER SERVICE
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JOINT HEARING
BEFORE THE
COMMITTEE ON VETERANS' AFFAIRS
AND THE
COMMITTEE ON ARMED SERVICES
UNITED STATES SENATE
ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
__________
OCTOBER 18, 2023
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Printed for the use of the Committee on Veterans' Affairs
[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov
__________
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
54-761 PDF WASHINGTON : 2025
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SENATE COMMITTEE ON VETERANS' AFFAIRS
Jon Tester, Montana, Chairman
Patty Murray, Washington Jerry Moran, Kansas, Ranking
Bernard Sanders, Vermont Member
Sherrod Brown, Ohio John Boozman, Arkansas
Richard Blumenthal, Connecticut Bill Cassidy, Louisiana
Mazie K. Hirono, Hawaii Mike Rounds, South Dakota
Joe Manchin III, West Virginia Thom Tillis, North Carolina
Kyrsten Sinema, Arizona Dan Sullivan, Alaska
Margaret Wood Hassan, New Hampshire Marsha Blackburn, Tennessee
Angus S. King, Jr., Maine Kevin Cramer, North Dakota
Tommy Tuberville, Alabama
Tony McClain, Staff Director
David Shearman, Republican Staff Director
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SENATE COMMITTEE ON ARMED SERVICES
Jack Reed, Rhode Island, Chairman
Jeanne Shaheen, New Hampshire Roger F. Wicker, Mississippi,
Kirsten E. Gillibrand, New York Ranking Member
Richard Blumenthal, Connecticut Deb Fischer, Nebraska
Mazie K. Hirono, Hawaii Tom Cotton, Arkansas
Tim Kaine, Virginia Mike Rounds, South Dakota
Angus S. King, Jr., Maine Joni Ernst, Iowa
Elizabeth Warren, Massachusetts Dan Sullivan, Alaska
Gary C. Peters, Michigan Kevin Cramer, North Dakota
Joe Manchin III, West Virginia Rick Scott, Florida
Tammy Duckworth, Illinois Tommy Tuberville, Alabama
Jacky Rosen, Nevada Markwayne Mullin, Oklahoma
Mark Kelly, Arizona Ted Budd, North Carolina
Eric Schmitt, Missouri
Elizabeth L. King, Staff Director
John P. Keast, Republican Staff Director
C O N T E N T S
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October 18, 2023
SENATORS
Page
Hon. Jon Tester, Chairman, U.S. Senator from Montana............. 1
Hon. Jack Reed, Chairman, U.S. Senator from Rhode Island......... 2
Hon. Jerry Moran, Ranking Member, U.S. Senator from Kansas....... 4
Hon. Roger F. Wicker, Ranking Member, U.S. Senator from
Mississippi.................................................... 5
Hon. Deb Fischer, U.S. Senator from Nebraska..................... 17
Hon. Margaret Wood Hassan, U.S. Senator from New Hampshire....... 18
Hon. Rick Scott, U.S. Senator from Florida....................... 20
Hon. Jeanne Shaheen, U.S. Senator from New Hampshire............. 21
Hon. Eric Schmitt, U.S. Senator from Missouri.................... 23
Hon. Patty Murray, U.S. Senator from Washington.................. 25
Hon. Tom Cotton, U.S. Senator from Arkansas...................... 27
Hon. Gary C. Peters, U.S. Senator from Michigan.................. 29
Hon. Joni Ernst, U.S. Senator from Iowa.......................... 30
Hon. Kyrsten Sinema, U.S. Senator from Arizona................... 32
Hon. Mark Kelly, U.S. Senator from Arizona....................... 34
Hon. Dan Sullivan, U.S. Senator from Alaska...................... 35
Hon. Richard Blumenthal, U.S. Senator from Connecticut........... 38
Hon. Thom Tillis, U.S. Senator from North Carolina............... 39
Hon. Mazie K. Hirono, U.S. Senator from Hawaii................... 40
Hon. Marsha Blackburn, U.S. Senator from Tennessee............... 42
Hon. Angus S. King, Jr., U.S. Senator from Maine................. 44
Hon. Ted Budd, U.S. Senator from North Carolina.................. 46
Hon. Jacky Rosen, U.S. Senator from Nevada....................... 47
WITNESSES
Panel I
Hon. Ashish S. Vazirani, Acting Under Secretary of Defense for
Personnel and Readiness, Department of Defense................. 6
Hon. Joshua D. Jacobs, Under Secretary for Benefits, Department
of Veterans Affairs............................................ 8
accompanied by
John W. Boerstler, Chief Veterans Experience Officer
Hon. James D. Rodriguez, Assistant Secretary of Labor for
Veterans' Employment and Training Service, Department of Labor. 10
John D. Sawyer, Director, Education, Workforce, and Income
Security, Government Accountability Office..................... 12
Panel II
Ryan Gallucci, Executive Director, Veterans of Foreign Wars of
the United States.............................................. 49
Tom Porter, Vice President of Government Affairs, Blue Star
Families....................................................... 51
Kevin O'Neil, Employment and Education Policy Associate, The
American Legion................................................ 53
Arthur DeGroat, EdD, Executive Director of Military and Veterans
Affairs, Kansas State University............................... 54
APPENDIX
Prepared Statements
Hon. Ashish S. Vazirani, Acting Under Secretary of Defense for
Personnel and Readiness, Department of Defense................. 69
Hon. Joshua D. Jacobs, Under Secretary for Benefits, Department
of Veterans Affairs............................................ 87
Hon. James D. Rodriguez, Assistant Secretary of Labor for
Veterans' Employment and Training Service, Department of Labor. 101
John D. Sawyer, Director, Education, Workforce, and Income
Security, Government Accountability Office..................... 111
Attachment--``Government Accountability Office (GAO)
Highlights''................................................. 128
Ryan Gallucci, Executive Director, Veterans of Foreign Wars of
the United States.............................................. 129
Tom Porter, Vice President of Government Affairs, Blue Star
Families....................................................... 141
Kevin O'Neil, Employment and Education Policy Associate, The
American Legion................................................ 150
Arthur DeGroat, EdD, Executive Director of Military and Veterans
Affairs, Kansas State University............................... 162
Questions for the Record
Department of Defense responses to questions submitted by:
Hon. Jon Tester................................................ 183
Hon. Sherrod Brown............................................. 184
Hon. Mazie K. Hirono........................................... 185
Hon. Angus S. King, Jr......................................... 187
Hon. John Boozman.............................................. 189
Hon. Marsha Blackburn.......................................... 190
Hon. Tommy Tuberville.......................................... 191
Hon. Jack Reed................................................. 192
Hon. Tim Kaine................................................. 193
Hon. Jacky Rosen............................................... 195
Hon. Roger Wicker.............................................. 196
Hon. Joni Ernst................................................ 199
Hon. Dan Sullivan.............................................. 200
Hon. Ted Budd.................................................. 201
Department of Veterans Affairs responses to questions submitted
by:
Hon. Mazie K. Hirono........................................... 205
Hon. Jon Tester................................................ 209
Hon. Marsha Blackburn.......................................... 212
Hon. John Boozman.............................................. 217
Hon. Sherrod Brown............................................. 219
Hon. Jack Reed................................................. 222
Hon. Tim Kaine................................................. 223
Hon. Jacky Rosen............................................... 224
Hon. Mark Kelly................................................ 227
Hon. Roger Wicker.............................................. 231
Hon. Joni Ernst................................................ 232
Hon. Dan Sullivan.............................................. 234
Hon. Ted Budd.................................................. 235
Department of Labor responses to questions submitted by:
Hon. Roger Wicker.............................................. 238
Hon. Dan Sullivan.............................................. 238
Hon. Ted Budd.................................................. 239
Government Accountability Office responses to questions submitted
by:
Hon. Mazie K. Hirono........................................... 241
Hon. Roger Wicker.............................................. 242
Military and Veterans Affairs, Kansas State University responses
to
questions submitted by:
Hon. Mazie K. Hirono........................................... 243
Statements for the Record
50strong, Kandi Tillman, Managing Co-Founder..................... 247
Hire Heroes USA, Andrew Sandoe, Chief Executive Officer.......... 256
Military Officers Association of America (MOAA).................. 261
National Guard Association of the United States.................. 274
Student Veterans of America (SVA)................................ 279
Western Governors' Association, Jack Waldorf, Executive Director. 288
COMMITTEES ON VETERANS' AFFAIRS AND ARMED SERVICES: MILITARY TO
CIVILIAN TRANSITION: ENSURING SUCCESS AFTER SERVICE
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WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 18, 2023
U.S. Senate,
Committee on Veterans' Affairs,
and Committee on Armed Services,
Washington, DC.
The Committees met, pursuant to notice, at 9:59 a.m., in
Room SD-G50, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Jon Tester,
and Hon. Jack Reed, Joint Chairs of the Committees, presiding.
Present from Committee on Veterans' Affairs:
Senators Tester, Murray, Brown, Blumenthal, Hirono, Sinema,
Hassan, King, Moran, Boozman, Tillis, Sullivan, Blackburn,
Cramer, and Tuberville.
Present from Committee on Armed Services:
Senators Reed, Shaheen, Gillibrand, Blumenthal, Hirono,
Kaine, King, Peters, Rosen, Kelly, Wicker, Fischer, Cotton,
Ernst, Sullivan, Cramer, Scott, Tuberville, Budd, and Schmitt.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. JON TESTER,
CHAIRMAN, U.S. SENATOR FROM MONTANA
Chairman Tester. I want to call this hearing to order.
Good morning. This is a rare occurrence where we have a
joint hearing with Senate Committee on Veterans' Affairs and
the Senate Armed Services Committee.
I want to give special thanks to Chairman Reed, Ranking
Members Moran and Wicker, for making this hearing happen. This
is a critically important topic. It is a topic that we have
been talking about since I came to this body, and that has been
a number of years back. And it is about the yearly transition
of 200,000 service members from being a warrior to a civilian,
and the tools that we provide these men and women during that
process that will impact everything from financial, to medical,
to emotional well-being.
Today, I want to hear how the DOD, the VA, and the DOL are
working together to ensure that this impact is a positive one.
In partnership through agencies, we have made some strides to
improve the transition process, but we are far from where we
need to be. In partnership, they are important. I want to make
sure during this hearing that you guys are talking to one
another, and that we understand what is going on with the folks
who are retiring out of the military.
Look, we have got enhanced GI Bill benefits, programs like
SkillBridge. We have got DOD and state governments that are
working to streamline requirements to get service members
everything, from commercial drivers' licenses, to a number of
other opportunities that are in the private sector that they
have learned those skills in the military. There is still too
much red tape out there, and we need to work to undo that.
We have enacted the PACT Act, which has been a huge
success, a large expansion of VA health care, and benefits in a
decade, and I might add, necessarily so. We have improved
veterans' access to mental health through the Hannon Act and
the STRONG Act, but recent data shows that we are not where we
need to be when it comes to veterans' mental health. We need to
get more of these veterans into the system so they don't fall
through the cracks, and that transition process is an
opportunity to happen.
And in fact, we have got some people on this roster today
that have some ideas on how to make that transition from DOD to
the VA system, smoother. I am looking for our first panel to
provide a government perspective on what is working and what is
not. I am looking for our second panel, composed of veterans
and advocates, to provide their personal perspectives on what
is working, and what is not. They will also advocate for
various policies to make sure we are doing right by our service
members.
I want to read you some statistics before I turn it over to
my fellow Chairman, Jack Reed. These are DOD data on enlisted
deaths: 89 percent of active-duty deaths by suicide were among
enlisted service members, enlisted service members; across the
active and reserve component, those who died by suicide were
primarily enlisted males under the age of 30. These are data
points we need to take into consideration.
If this population is struggling with their mental health
while in the service, those struggles are likely to continue
and get worse as they make the transition to civilian life. And
that is why this hearing today is so important.
With that, I turn it over to Senator Reed.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. JACK REED,
CHAIRMAN, U.S. SENATOR FROM RHODE ISLAND
Chairman Reed. Thank you very much, Chairman Tester. It is
a privilege to share the dais with you this morning. I am glad
we have brought our Committees together to discuss such a very
important issue. I would like to welcome and thank our
witnesses for joining us today.
Our military's greatest asset is the people, the men and
women who serve. Our men and women in uniform have long
provided America with the strongest national defense in the
world, and the leaders in this room have a fundamental duty to
ensure that they are set up for success, both in and out of the
service. The military is a challenging profession, and we know
that our service members have sacrificed much for the Nation.
We also know that the overwhelming majority of veterans report
positive experiences in the military.
Through surveys and data, we know that American veterans
are more civically engaged, earn more money, and have more
education than those who have not served. Veteran unemployment
is lower than non-veteran unemployment across the country, and
across nearly every demographic. Their economic outlook and
quality of life is, on average, higher than non-veteran
Americans.
In short, the military service is a social good. It
benefits the Nation, and it benefits those who serve.
Transitioning from military service to civilian life can be
challenging, however, the Department of Defense, and in
conjunction with the Department of Veterans Affairs, and the
Department of Labor, prepare service members and their families
for this transition, primarily through a structured training
program known as the Transition Assistance Program, or TAP.
TAP provides information, resources, and tools to service
members and their families to help prepare for the move from
military life to civilian life. Service members are required to
begin TAP a year before separating from military service; and
those who are retiring can begin TAP up to two years in advance
of their anticipated retirement date. I have been encouraged by
the overall success of TAP, but there are opportunities for
improvement that we will discuss today.
In particular, recent Government Accountability Office
reports have highlighted the challenge in getting full
participation in the program among service members. Although 90
percent of transitioning service members do eventually
participate in TAP, up to 70 percent did not enroll in TAP a
year in advance of their separation as required by law. I
understand the Department of Defense is working to implement
the GAO's recommendations and would ask our witnesses for an
update on those efforts.
A number of professional transition programs have shown
great promise. For example, the SkillBridge Internship Program
allows service members in the final months of their military
career to work full-time in a private employer to gain
experience and knowledge about the civilian workforce.
Similarly, the United States Military Apprenticeship
Program provides active-duty military members with professional
skills training and the opportunity to earn nationally
recognized certificates while finishing their military careers.
I would like to know what lessons can be drawn from these
programs and applied to other efforts.
Finally, the transition from the military medical system,
TRICARE, to the VA Health Care System can be daunting and
confusing. Although VA eligibility and implementation should be
smooth, many service members experience delays in determining
their disability ratings, which can cause uncertainty and
financial stress. Swift implementation of health care programs
will be key to improving the transition of members from active
service to civilian life. And I would ask our witnesses to
share their views on how the transition can be streamlined.
Thank you again to our witnesses, and I look forward to
your testimonies.
Now, on behalf of Chairman Tester, I would like to
recognize Ranking Member Moran.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. JERRY MORAN,
RANKING MEMBER, U.S. SENATOR FROM KANSAS
Senator Moran. Senator Reed, or Chairman Reed, thank you
very much. Thank you to you, and our Chairman, and Veterans,
and Senator Wicker for joining us. And thank you for our
witnesses for being here.
Our committee in the Department of Defense, Veterans
Affairs, and Labor should prioritize a seamless transition and
provide resources to reduce unemployment, homelessness, and
suicide, all issues our committee deals with on an ongoing
basis, and it seems like they all come together at this moment
when we talk about transition. But we can address unemployment,
homelessness, and suicide, as well as bolster military
recruitment and support success after the military, if we can
improve the transition from active duty to prior service.
Success after service will look different for every service
member. That is why we must make certain that veterans are
equipped with the knowledge and resources they need to thrive,
that knowledge and resource needs to come earlier than the day
in which they leave active service.
I also want to address the friction, and I would like to
see you all address the friction that exists in the transition
process between military retention and readiness, something
hugely important to our military, but to our Nation and its
national security. We need to allow service members to attend
pre-separation counseling, TAP classes, apprenticeships, and
internships before separation.
FY 2019 NDAA, Congress reformed TAP, put additional
requirements on the Departments to individualize the transition
process for those who are at higher risk for unemployment or
post-transition issues. Additionally, Congress required that
each service member go through TAP at least once, more than 365
days prior to separation. A mandate that we know is not being
followed for at least 70 percent of transitioning service
members, according to the Government Accountability Office.
Since those reforms were made in 2018, GAO has issued 12
reports on transition. Those reports include nearly 40
recommendations to VA and DOD. It is my understanding that very
few of those recommendations have been agreed to or
implemented, and DOD has not implemented a single one.
Given these facts, I worry that there is a lack of
understanding from commanders about the importance of
prioritizing a positive transition and allowing service members
time to prepare for the next phases, and their families' phase
in their lives. I understand the importance of operational
readiness; however, if a service member has a positive
transition experience and receives support from their command
and peers as they leave the military, they are more likely to
have a positive view of their military experience, a successful
transition, and assist with the recruitment by encouraging
others to join the military.
I am grateful to each one of our witnesses for being here
today. In the second panel, we will be joined by a Kansan, who
I want to express my gratitude for his presence here; Dr.
Arthur DeGroat, Lieutenant Colonel, retired, he is from the
Kansas State University Military Affairs and Innovation Center,
and he has become a significant component of witness--of our
witness panels as we deal with transition.
So Dr. DeGroat, thank you for joining us. And I assume I
should--I have to return this to Senator Reed.
Chairman Reed. Thank you, Senator Moran.
On behalf of Chairman Tester, let me recognize the Ranking
Member of the Armed Services Committee, Senator Wicker.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. ROGER F. WICKER,
RANKING MEMBER, U.S. SENATOR FROM MISSISSIPPI
Senator Wicker. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I am glad to
be here today, joining with three of my distinguished
colleagues. I am particularly proud that I share the leadership
role on the Armed Services Committee with a fellow veteran,
Senator Jack Reed. His career in the military is far more
distinguished than mine, but I am proud to be a veteran, proud
to have served, and proud to be here with three very
distinguished supporters of our military and our veteran
community.
There are improvements that need to be made in our veteran
experience, and in our transition experience, but the truth is
that the vast majority of our veterans are highly successful in
their post-military careers and personal lives. And I do
appreciate Chairman Reed making that point, and making the very
positive point about military service during the active-duty
time and as a veteran.
As our economy struggles with inflation and rising interest
rates, the reporting from the U.S. Census Bureau shows that
veterans and their families have consistently achieved higher
standards of living than non-veterans. This is over the past 40
years. The veteran unemployment rate is lower than the non-
veteran employment rate. Both can be improved, but that is a
significant statistic. This has been true nearly every month
since January 2003 when the Bureau of Labor Statistics began
tracking this information; this impressive fact is no surprise
to those of us who understand how valuable veterans are to
civilian employers.
Between 2005 and 2015, a recent study from the University
of Akron found that military veterans earned higher average
wages than non-veterans. These facts demonstrate what those of
us in the military community have known for years. Most
veterans are doing well. The skills and character we developed
during our time in service lead to desirable outcomes. Our
witnesses should be congratulated for the superb work that they
and their Departments have been doing in this area over the
past decades.
The success of our veterans shows that joining the military
is a great way to improve career and life prospects. This is
true regardless of sex, race, or national origin. As I have
said and echoing others, the United States Military is the
greatest civil rights program in the history of the world. The
success of veterans from minority communities proves this.
Researchers studied households headed by racial or ethnic
minorities with low education experience. In that study,
researchers found that households headed by veterans had
significantly higher standards of living than those headed by
non-veterans.
And in 2017, the median annual incomes of Black and
Hispanic veteran households were more than $20,000 higher than
those of minority non-veteran households. So as you can see, I
am not only proud to be a veteran, I value military service and
encourage many young Americans to follow this type of service.
We have also learned that effective pre-separation
transition programs are helping to prepare service members for
life after their military careers. The programs set these
veterans up for civilian life, and their communities notice
their success. In particular, young Americans see that military
service can have very positive effects. This helps recruiting
efforts. In this way, these transition programs act as a force
multiplier.
The Transition Assistance Program has been operating for
just over 30 years, but it has a lot to show from that
relatively brief tenure. Today, it supports around 200,000
service members every year. Congress has capitalized on that
momentum. We have identified the success of these transition
programs and expanded these opportunities. The FY 2019 National
Defense Authorization Act required broad reforms to make the
Transition Assistance Program even stronger.
Today, we will find out if we can improve on that. Congress
must keep faith with our veterans through these initiatives,
which I will continue to support. I look forward to hearing
from our witnesses today about their efforts to execute these
transition programs.
Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Reed. Thank you, Senator Wicker, for your
statement and for your service. Thank you very much.
Now, let me welcome the first panel. From the Department of
Defense, we have the Honorable Ashish Vazirani, Acting Under
Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness.
From the Department of Veterans Affairs we have the
Honorable Joshua D. Jacobs, Under Secretary for Benefits;
accompanied by Mr. John W. Boerstler, Chief Veterans Experience
Officer.
From the Department of Labor, we have the Honorable James
D. Rodriguez, Assistant Secretary of Labor for Veterans'
Employment and Training.
And from the Government Accountability Office, we have Mr.
John Sawyer, Director of Education, Workforce, and Income
Security.
Mr. Vazirani, please begin with your opening statement.
PANEL I
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STATEMENT OF HON. ASHISH S. VAZIRANI, ACTING UNDER SECRETARY OF
DEFENSE FOR PERSONNEL AND READINESS, DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE
Mr. Vazirani. Chairman Tester, Chairman Reed, Ranking
Member Moran, Ranking Member Wicker, and distinguished Members
of the Committee.
Chairman Reed. If you could pull the microphone as close as
possible, sir.
Mr. Vazirani. I appreciate the opportunity to address this
joint hearing today, not just as the Acting Under Secretary of
Defense for Personnel and Readiness, but as an advocate for and
a champion of service members and their families at all stages
of their service, inclusive of transition. I am honored to be
in the company of my colleagues from the Department of Veterans
Affairs and Labor, both of whom are integral partners in our
collaborative and coordinated mission to facilitate the
transition from military to civilian life, as well as a
representative from the GAO, which provides thoughtful
evaluations.
A service member's transition begins on day one of service,
and it is our duty to ensure a successful service member is a
successful veteran. Members of the military and their families
repeatedly prove their dedication, courage, and selflessness in
protecting our Nation. In return, our value proposition is to
provide them with the support, services, and resources they
need to thrive beyond the battlefield.
President Biden said, ``The only truly sacred obligation we
have is to prepare and equip those women and men we send into
harm's way and care for them and their families when they
return home.''
Service members are better prepared for their transition to
civilian life today than at any other point. This reflects
Secretary Austin's steadfast commitment to take care of our
people. This commitment extends beyond their separation from
duty in either the active or reserve component. DOD is one of
the seven agencies that each plays a crucial role in the
governance of military to civilian transition.
Our investments in our service members' training and
education, financial readiness, and health and well-being,
coupled with the whole-of-government efforts to support their
transition, are proving effective. Veterans using the Post-9/11
GI Bill are more likely to graduate and have a higher GPA.
Veterans are 20 percent more likely to be homeowners. Veterans
earn more than their civilian counterparts on average, and
veterans enrolled with the VA have better health outcomes than
their civilian counterparts.
The Joint Executive Committee stands as the bedrock of our
collaborative efforts, and I have the privilege of serving as
the DOD co-chair. The JEC provides the framework through which
our agencies jointly oversee this transition process. The
Transition Assistance Program Executive Council, a subordinate
committee of the JEC, co-chaired by VA, Labor, and DOD, is
responsible for ensuring that we have met statutory
requirements, and continuously improve the transition process
for future service members and their families.
DOD, with the collaboration and coordination of our
interagency partners, is supporting service members in their
transition to civilian life with a human-centered design
approach. Our lines of effort are too numerous to name them all
here, but we have made great strides in mental health support
services, career advancement, and educational resources,
transitioning spouse employment assistance, and homelessness
prevention, just to name a few.
Our interagency team knows our work is ongoing. We are
wholeheartedly committed to continuous improvement of the
transition process and our Transition Assistance Program. We
appreciate the legislative authorities that Congress provides
to support transitioning service members and improve transition
processes and programs. We continue to use those authorities
with our interagency partners.
In closing, I am proud of the holistic transition framework
that delivers individualized support for service members and
their families through our interagency partnership. With your
continued support, we will uphold our promise to take care of
our people, securing their future, and ensuring the continued
success of the All-Volunteer Force.
Thank you. And I look forward to your questions.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Vazirani appears on page 69
of the Appendix.]
Chairman Reed. Thank you very much, Mr. Secretary.
And I am now going to recognize the next person; if I can
find my notes.
Senator Moran. I think to recognize Mr. Jacobs.
Chairman Reed. I think, we will recognize Mr. Jacobs now.
Thank you, Senator Moran.
Mr. Jacobs.
STATEMENT OF HON. JOSHUA D. JACOBS, UNDER SECRETARY FOR
BENEFITS, DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS AFFAIRS; ACCOMPANIED BY JOHN
BOERSTLER, CHIEF VETERANS EXPERIENCE OFFICER
Mr. Jacobs. Thank you very much. And good morning, Chairman
Tester, Chairman Reed, Ranking Members Moran and Wicker, as
well as Members of this distinguished Committee.
I appreciate the opportunity to appear before you to
discuss VA's efforts to support service members as they
transition from military to civilian life.
I am accompanied by VA's Chief Veteran Experience Officer,
John Boerstler. And I am pleased to join our partners from DOD,
DOL, GAO, as well as our VSO partners on the second panel.
Each year, approximately 200,000 service members transition
from military to civilian life. For many, transition is an
opportunity to take on new challenges and build the next
chapter in their lives. For others, this time can be daunting
and filled with a mix of emotions and uncertainties. It is our
duty to care for all types of veterans, regardless of where
they are in this journey.
We need to connect them with their earned benefits in
health care, because veterans who utilize their earned benefits
are healthier, they earn more, and they are better set up for
success as they enter into civilian life; not only that, we
know that our success or failure in connecting veterans with
their benefits has lasting impacts on the military's ability to
recruit future generations of service members.
To empower transitioning service members in their journey
toward a fulfilling civilian life, service members are allowed
to begin their Transition Assistance Program one year prior to
separation, or two years prior to retiring. Attending TAP as
early as possible in the transition process is critical for
transitioning service members, given the vast amount of
information they need to digest in a compressed time frame. It
also gives them the opportunity to access their earned VA
benefits more quickly through the Benefits Delivery at
Discharge Program, or to get their foot in the door to a
potential employer through the SkillBridge Program.
As part of the broader interagency TAP program, VA delivers
a 1-day TAP course, which was attended by 88 percent of all VOW
Act-eligible transitioning service members in FY '22. VA's TAP
course is a valuable resource that provides guidance on how to
access earned VA benefits and enroll in VA health care, and
participation in TAP is correlated with a higher application
rate for VA benefits.
Additionally, VA also contacts all eligible veterans at
three key stages during their first year after separation from
active duty through a program called Solid Start, which was
established in 2019. As of September 30th, Solid Start has
assisted nearly 400,000 veterans with accessing their earned
benefits. Despite these successes, too many recently separated
veterans aren't accessing VA's most high-impact services within
the first year after they separate from active duty, including
health care and compensation benefits. Part of the reason for
this may be that veterans under 40, and especially those under
30, don't consider VA an immediate need, but they should.
To tackle that challenge, VA, in partnership with all
military service branches, as well as our federal partners,
including DOD and DOL, are using the voice of veterans and
their families to identify pain points and co-design solutions
through extensive human-centered design research conducted over
the last two years. Some of those pain points were echoed
recently when Sergeant First Class Rima Rusnack [ph.] began her
transition journey and started visualizing her life in a
different capacity. A life geared more toward academics.
For Rima, it was only two years ago that transition came on
the radar. She has many goals for life after service, but for
the first time in her career, she didn't know what actions to
take. While still in uniform, she began studying to get her
master's degree with the ultimate goal of obtaining her
doctorate. She needed to know whether she would be financially
secure during school, but she wasn't sure what the GI Bill
would cover or when she could even utilize it.
Rima is also a paratrooper. Every jump takes a toll no
matter how well you execute the parachute landing fall. While
knee and back pain from jumping out of airplanes is tolerable
at this point, she expects it to become more of a challenge
later in life. She was fortunate enough to attend TAP in
February, and she applied for her benefits through BDD. She
left active duty in August and received her first disability
compensation payment in September. And as she begins this next
chapter in her life, she is going to continue her service to
this country through the Army Reserves.
Stories like Rima's are why we are actively co-designing
solutions that address pain points and demonstrate tangible
value to Veterans. It is why we began hosting Annual Veteran
Transition symposiums to coordinate and improve the way that we
support transitioning service members and their families. It is
why we are updating the TAP curriculum so accredited VSOs and
State Departments of Veterans Affairs will now have the
opportunity to directly engage with transitioning service
members and their families for nearly an hour, at the end of
every 1-day VA TAP class.
And it is why the cross-agency team co-designed and is
prototyping with service members, veterans, and their families
a personalized digital solution that enables them to set goals,
take action, and get help when they get stuck. We are also
working to engage more with service members during their
military career by collaborating with DOD to educate commanders
on the importance of connecting service members and spouses
with VA benefits and health care prior to separation; and as I
stated earlier, improving the experience during that process.
The military-to-civilian transition process brings
opportunities for us to improve trust in VA, and support the
personal growth of veterans as they navigate this challenging,
but ultimately rewarding phase of their lives.
Thank you for your continued support of transitioning
service members, veterans, caregivers, and their survivors.
I would be happy to answer any questions you or the
Committee members may have.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Jacobs appears on page 87 of
the Appendix.]
Chairman Tester. Thank you, Josh. Thank you for your
testimony.
Next up, we have, from the Department of Labor, the
Honorable James Rodriguez, Assistant Secretary of Labor for
Veterans' Employment and Training. You have the floor, James.
STATEMENT OF HON. JAMES D. RODRIGUEZ, ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF
LABOR FOR VETERANS' EMPLOYMENT AND TRAINING SERVICE, DEPARTMENT
OF LABOR
Mr. Rodriguez. Chairman Tester, Chairman Reed, Ranking
Member Moran, and Ranking Member Wicker, and distinguished
Members of the Veterans Affairs and Armed Services Committees;
thank you for the opportunity to testify before you today on
the current state of the Transition Assistance Program and the
steps that should be made to continue modernizing and reforming
the program.
I have spent my entire federal career serving veterans.
This is my passion and that of my team who carry out our
mission every day across the entire country. DOL is the federal
lead for employment and training programs. Within DOL, VETS's
mission is to prepare America's veterans, service members, and
military spouses for meaningful careers, provide them with
employment resources and expertise, protect their employment
rights, and promote their employment opportunities.
VETS administers employment programs for transitioning
service members as part of TAP. Successful employment is a key
to economic success and can strongly impact physical and mental
health, life expectancy, and the quality of life. Our American
Job Centers are one-stop locations that offer a broad range of
career and supportive services to the public, and veterans
receive priority service for all DOL-funded training programs.
That is why it is so critical that DOL VETS is at the table
today, and that we continue to have a seat at the table with
our federal partners and to ensure the success of transitioning
service members and veterans in the future.
Today, I would like to highlight four topics that will
interest this Committee. First, service members are attending
DOL TAP employment workshops in record-breaking numbers. VETS
administers three core TAP employment workshops: the 1-day
Employment Fundamentals of Career Transition Workshop, the 2-
day DOL Employment Workshop, and the 2-day Career and
Credentialing Exploration Workshop.
In FY 2022, we provided instructions to over 266,000
participants, which is over a 40 percent increase from the
previous workshop record in FY 2021. And our participant survey
results are very encouraging. In FY 2023, 97 percent of
participants indicated they would use what they learned in
their own transition planning, and 95 percent reported that
their confidence in transition planning was enhanced.
Second, VETS is leading the way to transform the TAP
employment space. Via the VETS Employer Outreach Program, VETS
is also asking U.S. employers to participate in the DOD
SkillBridge Program. Last year, employers provided 22,548
employment-related DOD SkillBridge opportunities to service
members across all services.
And in response to consistent feedback that service members
want more personalized support beyond the classroom
environment, VETS created the Employment Navigator and
Partnership Pilot, or ENPP. Since its launch in 2021, at 13
military installations, ENPP has served about 13,000
participants, and preliminary data shows that ENPP participants
earn higher wages than those who did not participate in the
ENPP.
Third, VETS's pilot programs are a huge success. For
example, as of March 31, 2023, 96 percent of ENPP survey
respondents reported positive feelings after meeting with their
employment navigator and would recommend ENPP to a friend or
colleague. Additionally, 98 percent felt ENPP partners met or
exceeded their employment-related expectations.
And our off-based transition training pilot provides
veterans and their spouses workshops modeled after our TAP
curriculum at locations across the active-duty military
installations in areas with high veteran unemployment in 10
pilot states so that they can get additional post-separation
assistance when they need it.
Fourth, VETS will leverage data to improve TAP outcomes.
Traditionally, VETS has only had access to data about TAP
workshops and those workshop participants. However, new
initiatives such as ENPP have enabled VETS to access employment
outcome information on our transitioning service members
through a National Directory of New Hires at the Department of
Health and Human Services. DOL will leverage this information
to improve program delivery and employment outcomes, and we
look forward to sharing the outcomes of our research with our
partners and stakeholders in the future.
In conclusion, our long-term strategic goal for TAP is for
the Nation to recognize military service as a path to high-
quality, civilian careers. The future of the country's All-
Volunteer Force across the Armed Services depends on this
recognition, and we look forward to working with the Committees
to ensure all veterans can secure a good job that will provide
them with career advancement opportunities.
Thank you again for the invitation to participate in this
hearing with my colleagues from VA, DOD, and the GAO, and I
welcome your questions.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Rodriquez appears on page
101 of the Appendix.]
Chairman Tester. Yes. Thank you for your testimony, Mr.
Rodriguez.
Next up from the Government Accountability Office, we have
John Sawyer, Director of Education, Workforce, and Income
Security.
STATEMENT OF JOHN D. SAWYER, DIRECTOR, EDUCATION, WORKFORCE,
AND INCOME SECURITY, GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABILITY OFFICE
Mr. Sawyer. Chairmen Reed and Tester, Ranking Members
Wicker and Moran, and Members of the Committee, thank you for
the opportunity to discuss GAO's recent work on programs that
help service members transition from military service to
civilian life.
Over the next few years, more than half-a-million service
members are expected to take this critical step. There are
several federal programs that provide benefits and services to
help service members achieve their educational, employment, and
other goals, and overcome potential challenges in adjusting to
civilian life.
Today, I would like to highlight: (1) our work on DOD's
credentialing programs that help service members obtain
civilian credentials related to their military skills and
training, (2) DOD's Transition Assistance Program, which
provides tailored counseling and classes to help service
members achieve their post-transition goals, and (3) VA's Solid
Start Program, which serves new veterans in their first year
after leaving military service.
Our work has found that oversight and implementation of
these programs could be enhanced to better achieve their
intended benefits. Since February 2022, we have issued 10
recommendations on these programs. I am pleased to report that
VA implemented our Solid Start recommendation to further
collaborate with Veterans Service Organizations to identify and
address outreach gaps for hard-to-reach veterans. As a result,
VA increased its rate of successful outreach to younger
veterans and continues to regularly coordinate with VSOs to
enhance its overall outreach.
The remaining recommendations were directed at DOD and its
service branches. For example, we found that DOD's
credentialing programs lacked adequate evidence to show that
the programs were working. As a result, we recommended that DOD
more fully assess the effectiveness of its credentialing
programs. DOD agreed and expects to implement this
recommendation in fiscal year 2025.
The remaining recommendations were issued in our December
2022 report on DOD's Transition Assistance Program. In that
report, we found that attendance in the tailored 2-day classes
increased significantly since 2016. However, the service
branches waived over half of transitioning service members from
attending them. Per Service Branch policies, service members
who need maximum transition support must attend a 2-day class,
but we found that nearly a quarter of them did not.
And finally, we found that most transitioning service
members (70 percent) did not start TAP at least one year in
advance, as generally required. While the service branches and
the TAP Policy Office collect and review performance
information on 2-day class attendance and timeliness, they do
not fully leverage this information to understand and improve
results. We believe that better understanding root causes for
attendance and timeliness results would help DOD improve
service members' ability to benefit from the full range of
transition resources available to them.
Effectively addressing the outstanding recommendations
would help DOD gain reasonable assurance that every service
member who leaves the military receives the best possible
chance to succeed as they transition back to civilian life.
This concludes my oral statement. I would be happy to
respond to any questions.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Sawyer appears on page 111
of the Appendix.]
Chairman Tester. Thank you for your statement. Thank the
whole panel for their statements. There are two panels today. I
would ask the members on the rostrum, and we get four minutes
to ask questions. So get your good questions up so we don't run
over, because otherwise, this would be an incredibly long
hearing, not that it shouldn't be because it is important.
I am going to start my questions with you, Mr. Sawyer,
since you are warmed up. In your review of the transition
process, did you identify--you talked about they didn't start
to--many of them didn't start transition one year in advance;
did you identify the reasons why?
Mr. Sawyer. Thank you for that question, Chairman Tester.
In our report, we did not specifically identify reasons why
individuals were not starting the Transition Assistance Program
at least one year in advance of their anticipated separation or
transition date. We did find that there is information
available to DOD to allow them to assess the results, and that
is why we recommended that they use this information to
identify and understand root causes.
Chairman Tester. So we will go to you, Mr. Vazirani. How
does the DOD hold commanders, or does it hold commanders
accountable for providing service members the need for
transition, the time they need for transition?
Mr. Vazirani. Senator, thank you. The DOD is holding, or
observing and watching what the commanders are doing. And so we
do that through collecting data on the Transition Assistance
Program. We have compliance measures and timeliness measures,
we measure compliance across eight domains, and we measure
timeliness whether the service member starts 365 days in
advance.
Chairman Tester. And what are you seeing with those
measurements?
Mr. Vazirani. What we are seeing is, as has been reported,
about 30 percent are starting on time. We know that we have to
make improvements there. We are providing that data to the
services. And one of the things that we are also doing is, at
the assessment at the end of TAP, understanding if there are
barriers to that timeliness. And what we are finding is that
those barriers tend to be in the area of three categories:
involuntary separations which are happening within that 365-day
time period, mission requirements, and then also personal
decisions.
Chairman Tester. So you are in a tough position because
everybody on this roster knows the military needs every person
they can get and keep every person that they have available to
them. So I think the last thing you want to talk about is
transitioning folks out of the military. But I think it is
important that this is a group effort, that is why everybody is
here today. We have got you representing the DOD, we have got
Jacobs representing the VA, we have got the folks on this panel
that give us the full gamut. We have got a massive problem that
has been around for a long time in mental health with the folks
that are coming out. And the statistics that I read in my
opening statement show that this is really most prevalent in
enlisted members.
So do you have; do you have, before I move on--just real
quickly, Mr. Vazirani, do you have any ideas on how we can make
it better while keeping our numbers up in the military?
Mr. Vazirani. Senator, as the Secretary said, mental health
is health, and we are very focused on assessing the mental
health of service members and ensuring their mental health
throughout their time of service, through the congressionally
mandated suicide prevention response.
Chairman Tester. Yes.
Mr. Vazirani. We have implemented, we are implementing a
program looking across and implementing a public health
approach, ensuring that we are fostering a supportive
environment, that we are addressing stigma, that we are
improving the delivery of behavioral health care, and that we
are revising suicide prevention training so that commanders and
our first-line leaders understand the signs of where a service
member may have concerns about their mental health or
behavioral health.
Chairman Tester. Thank you. I will go to Chairman Reed, and
then Ranking Member Moran.
Chairman Reed. Thank you very much, Chairman Tester.
Quickly, Mr. Vazirani, what steps are you taking to get
compliance with the statutory 365-day sign-up? There are some
circumstances in which you can't, i.e., someone who is
terminated from duty prior to that time period. But what are
you doing specifically?
Mr. Vazirani. Senator, one of the things that we are doing
is we are in the process of integrating a single data
repository that will allow for that measurement and providing
that information back to the military services and to
commanders. And when we think about the accountability portion
of this, we try to think about this non-accountability
necessarily from a punitive standpoint, but from what can we
learn? Are we understanding the best practices? And are we
sharing those best practices across the services?
Chairman Reed. Well, thank you. One of my experiences is
that the transition from uniform to civilian, DOD to VA, the
most challenging aspect is medical health care. I recall going
up to Walter Reed in 2000, visiting and finding people who were
there for six or seven months trying to get their VA
eligibility or disability status to a level that meets the
military level. And the other issue, just the first step. Have
we successfully combined electronic medical records between the
VA and the Department of Defense yet?
Mr. Vazirani. Senator, the Department of Defense has
completed the deployment of the electronic health record within
Kronos, with the exception of the Lovell Center in Chicago, and
we are working with our partners at the VA to implement that.
We are taking all of the lessons we have learned through the
Kronos implementation and applying that to ensure that we have
a successful implementation at Lovell.
Chairman Reed. But we are not operational yet; are we?
Mr. Vazirani. We are not operational between the two
systems; however, we do have visibility, so there is a sharing
of information between DOD and VA. So while the electronic
health record is not operational, there is a sharing of
information to coordinate that care, and ensure continuity of
care.
Chairman Reed. Well, I would encourage you. I mean, this is
slightly off-topic, but not entirely. I would expedite that. It
is something going on now for a decade or more, and that would,
I think, help smooth out the transition dramatically.
And what are the primary choke points, Mr. Jacobs,
Secretary, between VA in terms of healthcare? I understand that
VA does a separate independent disability assessment; is that
true, that differs from the Department of Defense?
Mr. Jacobs. We have a joint program called IDES, when a
service member is--when they have a condition that impedes
their service, where we can do a joint disability process. But
for anyone applying for VA disability compensation, that is a
separate and distinct approach. And the benefits that we
provide, in terms of disability compensation, are not only a
recognition of the impact of the individual service, but they
are also a gateway to other benefits. They impact healthcare
eligibility, and the criteria, the priority group within
healthcare. It also can inform eligibility for other benefits
and make connections.
Chairman Reed. But the reality is that a DOD physician
could give someone an 80 percent disability rating that the VA
would independently rate?
Mr. Jacobs. We are providing independent assessments based
on our rating schedule for disability compensation purposes.
Chairman Reed. I think that is something that deserves
further coordination, and maybe even legislative support. I
think that would be helpful. Thank you. I know this is a very
challenging situation. But the other point, too, I presume, and
I have exceeded my time. Just very quickly. There is a mandate
for an information session on medical health care opportunities
that are specifically designed for the retiring veteran?
Mr. Jacobs. Yes. And the 1-day VA TAP course that we
provide, we include information about health care, in addition
to the full suite of other benefits.
Chairman Reed. Thank you.
Chairman Tester. Ranking Member Moran.
Senator Moran. Chairman, thank you.
Secretary Vazirani, both of my colleagues who preceded me
in asking questions have highlighted the need for, and I think
our view that the Department of Defense further emphasize and
act more expeditiously. Would you confirm to me that you
understand and support the value of this transition program for
the benefit of the servicemen and women who serve today and the
veterans they will be tomorrow? And tell me what the impediment
in the Department of Defense and the branches is toward moving
more expeditiously to meet the requirements of the statute?
Mr. Vazirani. Senator, I do confirm our commitment to
taking care of people and ensuring that service members make a
successful transition so that they are successful; as a veteran
as well. We are working with the military departments and
services to make sure that they have the information available
about the starting of TAP and the completion of TAP, providing
that information, creating dashboards that the commanders have
available to them, and their leaders have available to them, so
that we have a clear understanding of if there are any barriers
to TAP and addressing those barriers.
Senator Moran. What, if any, is the pushback or the lack of
enthusiasm for complying with the law by those you are
informing?
Mr. Vazirani. Sir, we have not heard any pushback regarding
compliance with the law. I think the one thing that we do is we
trust our commanders to ensure that they are balancing the
readiness of their unit with the needs of the individual. The
one thing that we do understand, and we have been taking
advantage of, is this full year to plan for transition so that
the service member has time to customize that approach for
their expectations and for their needs.
Senator Moran. Mr. Sawyer, you highlighted in your
testimony, and in response to Senator Tester about the data,
including the lack of 2-day attendance as being waived. What is
the plan at GAO to try to push the services to take statutory
mandate seriously, and decrease the utilization of their waiver
authority?
Mr. Sawyer. Thank you for that question, sir. Now, in our
report we did not direct any recommendations toward the
waivers. We did notice that for some 53 percent of those who
were transitioning, waivers were granted. We are not sure why
that occurred. Our scope did not allow us to investigate that.
However, we did see that among tier 3 service members, those
who are designated as having the greatest risk of a successful
transition, some 22 percent did not take the class at all. And
that is why we recommended that DOD should spend some time
evaluating root causes. Is it commander support? Is it the
culture change? Is it mission requirements? What are the
reasons that are driving this?
Senator Moran. Is the timing of your recommendations and
the response to your recommendations such that we should see
further progress at the DOD, or the VA, or the Department of
Labor in response to your recommendations? Or is this the
course of business at the moment?
Mr. Sawyer. To answer that question, based on our follow-up
and discussions with DOD and VA, they are moving toward
addressing these recommendations and issues.
Senator Moran. So GAO feels comfortable with the progress
that those two Departments are making?
[Pause.]
Mr. Sawyer. We----
Senator Moran. All right. Let me ask you this question:
Should I feel comfortable with the progress that these two
Departments are making?
Mr. Sawyer. I think you should feel comfortable with the
progress. However, we have recommendations and we are going to
monitor the corrective actions. Because these recommendations
deal with identifying root causes, they are tough
recommendations in that you really have to go below the surface
and really try to identify reasons why these timeliness and
attendance results are such that they are.
Senator Moran. Mr. Sawyer, if I don't reach out to you,
would you reach out to me with any concerns that you have in
the recommendations being followed?
Mr. Sawyer. Absolutely, sir.
Senator Moran. Thank you, sir.
Chairman Tester. In lieu of Ranking Member Wicker, Senator
Fischer.
HON. DEB FISCHER,
U.S. SENATOR FROM NEBRASKA
Senator Fischer. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Vazirani, within the TAP, how much leeway is given to
individual TAP offices to teach the curriculum so they can
tailor it to their needs? For example, if you have a service
member who is going to sign up again, but that doesn't show on
their records yet, they still have to attend the weeklong
class; is that correct?
Mr. Vazirani. Senator, if I can clarify your question. If a
service member has gone through TAP, transitioned and then come
back into service, is that the question, sorry?
Senator Fischer. No. No. If they are still in the service,
but with the requirements and the timeline that is there, they
have to start the process, but yet their records haven't kept
up with their intentions, that they plan to reenlist, for
example. Are the programs given any kind of flexibility to be
able to tailor it to certain instances?
Mr. Vazirani. Senator, the program is designed to tailor to
each individual. Each individual goes through an individual
assessment, and they are tiered. They then have a separation
counseling to help them understand which elements of the TAP
program will be beneficial for them. At the end of the program,
there is also a capstone, which the commander will sign off on
completion. If during that time period, the service member
decides they want to stay in service, then there would not be a
need to complete the program.
Senator Fischer. Okay. Do you think you have the program
appropriately staffed to handle the current number of military
personnel?
Mr. Vazirani. Senator, we do believe we have the current
level of staffing correct. I think as we continue to learn more
about the program, we will continue to evolve that and
determine whether or not additional authorizations are required
to fulfill the program. But at this point, we do believe that
we have the right staffing.
Senator Fischer. We have seen a GAO study from December
2022, and it found that nearly 25 percent of service members
who needed that maximum support didn't attend the mandatory 2-
day class. So what steps do you see the Department needs to
take or are you taking now that would address that?
Mr. Vazirani. Senator, we are taking steps to get a better
understanding of why service members are electing not to
participate. There are service members who want--as I indicated
earlier, the personal decisions why they wouldn't. So we are
trying to get a better understanding of that. We are also
ensuring that----
Senator Fischer. What specifically are you doing?
Mr. Vazirani. So through the TAP assessment, we are digging
into that and understanding those barriers. And then the other
thing, through the commander's capstone, getting a better
understanding of why that service member would not want to
participate in that program.
Mr. Jacobs. And Senator Fischer, if I might add; one of the
things that we are doing is we are recognizing that TAP is a
commander's program. We are creating a visual management tool
so that commanders have greater visibility of their
transitioning service members. It is work that Mr. Boerstler is
leading through a human design element. We are prototyping that
tool, and if it is appropriate, I would love for him to share a
little bit about that.
Senator Fischer. That would be great. When you say you are
prototyping it, do you have a pilot program in place? Are you
using it?
Mr. Boerstler. Yes, Senator. We are currently actually
testing it this week with command teams. So this cannot only
include the commanders themselves, but the senior enlisted
personnel that are supporting the commanders' decisions. It
will give them much greater visibility, as Mr. Jacobs
mentioned, to actually see which units that they oversee are in
compliance with the 12-month or 24-month requirements.
This is a decision that has been co-designed from all of
our agencies, plus a few more, including all six service
branches, and has been taken through our governance process. So
it is underway and it should be available next year.
Senator Fischer. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Tester. Senator Hassan.
HON. MARGARET WOOD HASSAN,
U.S. SENATOR FROM NEW HAMPSHIRE
[Technical issue.]
Senator Hassan [continuing]. Really help build that sense
of community that is so important. Now, I will start with a
question to you, Mr. Vazirani. Senator Cramer and I, as you
know, worked together last year to pass into law of the Solid
Start Act, which requires the VA to call each veteran three
times within their first year of separating from the military
to make sure that they know about and understand the VA
benefits that are available to them.
In your written testimony, you referred to the year before
separation and the year after separation as the critical
transition period. The Solid Start Program helps with the
second half of that critical transition period. How can we
provide a similarly tailored approach to service members in the
first half of that transition period as they prepare to
separate from the military, to help them plan for and work
toward their long-term goals post-military service, including
for future careers? And I hope you were able to hear that.
Apparently, there was some difficulty with this speaker, this
microphone.
Mr. Vazirani. Senator, thank you for that question, I was
able to hear the question. I appreciate it. As I indicated, and
as I said earlier, we certainly believe that mental health is
health, and throughout the service members' cycle of service,
we do have checks on their mental health. During that 365 days
in the transition time period, we have worked with our
interagency partners in developing an enterprise individual
assessment, and that covers nine different domains. As we look
at those, that is how we understand how to tailor the program,
the Transition Assistance Program, for that service member.
Senator Hassan. Well, thank you. And I hope that includes
some real outreach similar to what we are trying to accomplish
in Solid Start, so that everything doesn't rest with the
service member to initiate the transition services.
Mr. Vazirani. Senator, it does. And in that, in that if a
service member has had, through that mental health assessment,
or interaction with behavioral health, and mental health, they
are referred to the inTransition Program which helps them to
understand what services would be available, and help them
transition.
Senator Hassan. I understand that, and my time is short, so
I will follow up with you. But it is not just about mental
health, right? I mean there are other things that veterans need
and they need outreach for. So let us move to one other
question, because I continually hear how service members feel
unprepared to transition into their new careers, or move to new
places, because they don't have connections with local
community, something New Hampshire is proactively trying to
deal with.
So for example, James Roberg of Antrim, New Hampshire,
shared with my office his experience working for the New
Hampshire Department of Military Affairs, and Veteran Services.
This state office has developed a variety of resources to help
transitioning service members and veterans including a research
book full of available state and local resources. Like many
other transitioning service members, James had no idea that
there was a state office like this in New Hampshire, and yet he
eventually ended up working there, and to this day continues to
help educate other service members on employment opportunities
in the state. In New Hampshire we have worked to help address
this gap in knowledge, because we value veterans in our
community, and recognize their contributions to our workforce.
So I would ask that you guys respond to this in writing,
because I am running out of time. But I am very interested in
how we can ensure that more service members get directly
connected to state and local resources that can provide
meaningful connections with the communities that the veteran
plans to reside in, before the veteran makes that transition.
Thank you all so much for your work.
Chairman Tester. There will be a number of questions for
the record. And I would hope that you all answer them in a
timely manner.
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DoD Response: DoD agrees that linking transitioning Service members with
local communities where they intend to reside post-military service is
vital to a successful transition. The DoD has Memoranda of
Understanding with all 54 states, territories and the District of
Columbia, to provide states' Departments of Veterans Affairs with
information about transitioning service members. States in turn use
this data too in a number of ways, including welcoming Service members
to their state and connecting Service members to local resources.
Additionally, states and accredited Veterans Service Organizations are
provided with up to 45 minutes during of the TAP course to brief
transitioning Service member on services offered by their
organizations.
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Senator Scott.
HON. RICK SCOTT,
U.S. SENATOR FROM FLORIDA
Senator Scott. Thank you, Chairman. First off, I want to
thank each of you for being here; thank you for caring about
our service men and women, and their families, and thank you
for what you try to do every day.
I am just going to give you a couple experiences I had. I
was in the Navy and got out. Do you think anybody before talked
to me about what I was going to do afterwards? Do you think
anybody ever called me afterwards? Nobody, ever, nobody ever.
In 2011, I became Governor of Florida, and right after I won
the election I welcomed some National Guard members back from
overseas, and 30 percent unemployment. Now, unemployment was
bad at the time, but 30 percent unemployment, and their
experiences, you know, nobody was talking to them about how to
get a job.
So we put a lot of effort into--in our state into, one,
making sure people could get a job, and then a variety of other
issues. We also had a state agency that just did Veteran
Affairs, and the thing that surprised me the most, it was there
was no coordination with the Federal Government, I mean, like
none. They wouldn't give us any information on who was getting
out, and so, I mean there is a big opportunity to help our
families.
And so my goal as Governor was to make Florida the place
where you want to serve; and number two is, make it the place
where you want to retire. And so we did a variety of things.
And I have been up here five years, and I am really proud of
the things that the Armed Services Committee has done. The 2019
NDAA established programs for counseling Pathways, for self-
assessments, for individualized initial counseling, tier
assignments that reflect the service members' transition
preparedness, revised curriculum, and improvement to the
Transition Assistance Program,
There is just a lot of--I think this Armed Services
Committee has done a lot of good things, but we are here, you
know, in my state there is a lot of news from our Veterans
Service Organizations, and also from the GAO report in 2022
that indicates it is not working the way it should. And then we
had a meeting yesterday, and you are absolutely committed to
getting this done.
But the GAO said that 90 percent of the transition troops
participated, but one-quarter did not even attend the mandatory
2-day class. So there has to be a lot of things to make that
happen. Florida is home to--we have 21 military bases, three in
the flight commands. I always think it is the best place to
serve, but I think there is a lot of opportunities that we have
to make it better.
So here, let me get to my questions, and I think we did
everything we could. I mean, we have waived every fee for
spouses. Probably one the biggest things we did was parents
that had a child in the Medicaid, and needed them to have a
Medicaid waiver, they would go to the bottom of the list,
mostly. And we changed it, they went to the top of the list.
That changed people's lives a lot.
So can any of you talk to me about how you work with your
state counterparts? Because I assume most states have what I
had; there is a state agency, and how do you work with them
now?
Mr. Jacobs. Yes. Thank you, Senator, for that question. And
I have to say you have an excellent veteran leader and advocate
in ``Hammer'', Hammer Hartsell, who is the Lead of the State
Department of Veterans Affairs in Florida.
Senator Scott. Yes.
Mr. Jacobs. It seems like every time we have an engagement,
he is there. We actively work with all of the State Departments
of Veterans Affairs through the NASDVA program. And one of the
things that we are doing through the upgrade to our VA TAP
curriculum, is we are including at the end of our day, for the
last 45 to 60 minutes, a portion of the day where accredited
VSOs in State Departments of Veterans Affairs can directly
engage with transitioning service members, because we know that
personal relationship is important. That when veterans go home
they are provided with 200 pages of material on VA benefits and
healthcare alone.
There are a lot of questions, and they have incredible
advocates in both accredited VSOs and state and local
government who are there, and whose sole purpose is to help
connect them to those earned benefits. So we actively work with
them, we actively seek input and feedback on our programs. I
get feedback from Hammer personally, when something is not
going well, or he wants to say: Hey, you know, your staff did a
great job, you should recognize them. And so it is a really
important part of our operating model, and they are really
valued partners.
Senator Scott. Thanks. Thanks for what you guys are doing.
Chairman Tester. Senator Shaheen.
HON. JEANNE SHAHEEN,
U.S. SENATOR FROM NEW HAMPSHIRE
Senator Shaheen. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And thank you all
for being here. I want to make sure I understand some of the
testimony earlier with respect to the TAP program. Mr.
Rodriguez, I understand you to say that vets are attending TAP
in record numbers; was that correct?
Mr. Rodriguez. Yes, it is. I am talking about the DOL
version of TAP, that 1-day TAP course.
Senator Shaheen. Okay. So that is a different TAP course
than----
Mr. Rodriguez. Well, it is a single day that is separate
from the DOD and the Veterans Affairs days.
Senator Shaheen. And how do you coordinate with what DOD is
doing?
Mr. Rodriguez. We work seamlessly together as part of the
TAP Executive Committee, the Joint Executive Committee, we work
together to ensure that TAP is a seamless transfer of
information and sharing of resources to better prepare that
service member when they are preparing to transition out of the
military.
Senator Shaheen. So if I am a service member, can I go to
the DOL TAP rather than DOD TAP?
Mr. Rodriguez. It is the same TAP, so there are three
mandatory days: one day DOD, one day Department of Veterans
Affairs, one day DOL, and then there are two additional
optional days that a service member can take.
Senator Shaheen. So what percentage are actually attending
DOL's TAP?
Mr. Rodriguez. I don't have the percentage, Senator, but I
can tell you the numbers. Roughly 148,560 service members are
going through the 1-day DOL TAP.
Senator Shaheen. But I understood you to say, Mr. Sawyer,
that 70 percent of members of the military who are getting out
didn't attend. Are you talking about a different program?
Mr. Sawyer. Thank you. The 70 percent relates to those
starting the program at least one year in advance of their
transition date.
Senator Shaheen. I can understand why veterans might be
confused because the coordination is challenging. And as we
heard from virtually both--all the Chair and Ranking Members
talked about the mental health challenges and the number of
veterans who are at risk of suicide.
And Mr.--is it Boerstler? I understand that you have worked
with our European allies about how they administer their
transition assistant programs. Do veterans--non-U.S. Veterans
face the same risk of suicide in their first year as U.S.
Veterans?
Mr. Boerstler. Senator, I would have to take that question
for the record because we don't--to understand their
methodologies and how they measure that rate, but I do know
that there are some great programs that our allies use as well
as our own. But I think we still have the best system.
Senator Shaheen. So when you talk about those great
programs, are there things that we should be adopting from what
our allies are doing?
Mr. Boerstler. I do think that we--as I mentioned, Senator,
we do have the best system when we compare to a lot of our
allies and the way that they execute these programs. There are
some interesting use cases, particularly in the United Kingdom
and their Career Transition Partnership, but in the intervening
years, as Assistant Secretary Rodriguez mentioned, the ENPP
program for the Department of Labor almost mirrors what the
United Kingdom has been doing. It has been very successful. So
I think there is a lot we can learn from each other.
Senator Shaheen. I appreciate that.
Mr. Jacobs, one of the things that we are hearing in New
Hampshire is that too many veterans are not taking advantage of
the VA benefits, particularly for mental health. It is the
theme that everybody has referenced in all of the questions. So
what can we do better?
Mr. Jacobs. Thank you very much for that question. We know
that when veterans connect and access their earned benefits,
whether it is disability compensation, home loans, education,
or their VA health care, they have better health outcomes, they
have better economic opportunities, and it decreases the risk
for suicide.
Senator Shaheen. Right. Okay. How do we do that?
Mr. Jacobs. Correct. So we are aggressively continuing to
do more outreach. So during the transition period, we are
identifying where there are veterans transitioning service
members at risk and providing a warm handover. We have benefits
counselors, we have military service coordinators, and there
are VHA liaisons on military treatment facilities.
Part of the way that we are doing that is through the Solid
Start Program, where we are calling transitioning service
members three times in the first year after they leave the
military, at the 90-, 180-, and 365-day marks. And the goal of
this program when it was created, was to address the very real
mental health concerns that we are all focused on. And the
program is structured in a way where it is open-ended, so it is
really tailored around responding to the veterans' needs.
Do they need a connection with a mental health counselor?
And then we can connect them to a Vet Center, a CBOC, a medical
center. Do they need a status update on their claim? Do they
need assistance with their claim? Do they need help pursuing
housing? And so we have opportunities like that. But it is
also, to the point that was made earlier, it is Buddy Check
Week. It is promoting opportunities for us, not only as a
government, but as a broader society, to support one another,
to know the signs, to look out for, so that when we see a
fellow veteran, a friend in crisis, you know that there is a
place to help them, even if you don't have the resources to do
it yourself.
Senator Shaheen. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Tester. Senator Schmitt.
HON. ERIC SCHMITT,
U.S. SENATOR FROM MISSOURI
Senator Schmitt. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you all for
being here, and the work that you do every day, helping the
folks that served us in Missouri. We are really proud. We have
got three bases. We have got Whiteman Air Force Base, we have
got Fort Leonard Wood, and we have got Rosecrans, which is the
Air National Guard Base in Northwest Missouri. And so those
folks that have committed themselves to this country, they
deserve all the support and the best support, which is why we
are all here. So thank you for that.
I wanted to ask just two questions, and I will just throw
it out whoever wants to answer. The first is Senator Ossoff and
I co-sponsored a bill that would support military spouses as
they are being reassigned to ease some of the regulatory
burdens that exist as they are moving from place to place. What
are just one or two things that we can do better to ease that
sort of burden? As they want to continue their careers or
business ventures as they are moving from place to place?
Mr. Vazirani. Senator, if I may, I will start. First of
all, thank you very much for the work that you have done to
support military spouse employment. The one thing that we are
finding is really effective for military spouses is the
COMPACTs and encouraging the states to sign on to COMPACTs.
That portability, not only benefits an active duty--the spouse
of an active-duty service member, it supports spouses of
veterans, it supports all Americans. And so the more that we
can get states to sign on to those COMPACTs, I think we will
find that we will have greater portability.
Senator Schmitt. Thank you. I don't know if anybody else
had anything to add to that.
Mr. Rodriguez. Senator, I will add a few things there.
Senator Schmitt. Okay.
Mr. Rodriguez. One of the biggest challenges is our
military spouses are at a 31 percent unemployment rate, so they
have the highest unemployment rate of any category affiliated
with the military community. So we need to figure out a way to
protect military spouses' employment when they are transferring
from duty station to duty station, or if their spouse is guard
or reserve, and they are called to active duty, and that spouse
has to take time away to take care of their families, or
whatever things that come as part of life when someone is
active duty, or called to active duty.
I think there are ways to protect military spouses, to give
them the courage to identify as military spouses, and finally--
encourage employers to actually employ these military spouses
and help retain that spousal employment when someone is called
to active duty.
Mr. Jacobs. And I will add, at the risk of being a bit
parochial, we are actively looking to hire military spouses at
VA. We know they are incredible mission-oriented teammates that
need sometimes additional flexibility to enable them to
continue to support our mission while moving and in partnership
with their spouse. So we are actively working to do that from a
VA perspective as well.
Senator Schmitt. I am sure this is probably true for other
senators, but I know that as I get around Missouri and talk to
employers, they are--I mean, they are looking for skilled
people. The labor shortage obviously is a broad issue. But as
it relates to military folks, and this question has been asked
in a few different ways but you know, it is the United States
Senate. Just because a question has been asked, it doesn't mean
it has been asked by everybody.
Your sort of take on: What are a couple of things that we
can do better to make sure that, you know, our military
servicemen and women, while they are in active duty, can avail
themselves to as much of that training as possible as they
transition? Because there is a great need out there, and I know
that a lot of employers are really looking for people who
served the country as well. What are just a couple of takeaways
that we can take back home and work on?
Mr. Vazirani. Senator, I will start on that. As we think
about the opportunities for military--the service member and
the military spouse to gain employment, or to be successful as
they go beyond, I think encouraging employers to get involved
in the programs that we have, whether it is SkillBridge, or our
Military Spouse Employment Partnership, those would be helpful.
I think the other thing, sir, that would be really helpful is
if we can encourage more Americans to talk about the value of
service, and the benefits, and how successful veterans are.
That will help us on the front-end as well as we encourage
people to come into service.
Mr. Jacobs. And I would just briefly add. You know, one of
the things I heard when I joined Hiring Our Heroes in a
community event with the health and life sciences industry is
that oftentimes companies will have incredible veteran
candidates. They may not have a position that they can offer
them, but they think it is a valuable resource. And so it is
making, kind of, that connective tissue a little bit stronger
so that they have got colleagues in industry who they can refer
those incredible candidates to, even if they can't offer a
position at that time.
Senator Schmitt. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Tester. Senator Murray.
HON. PATTY MURRAY,
U.S. SENATOR FROM WASHINGTON
Senator Murray. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, for
having this hearing. Thank you all for being here.
There is no question that our service members deserve a
seamless transition out of the military to VA services. In my
home State of Washington, DOD went live with its own electronic
health records program back in 2017. It has its own challenges,
and I am sure you all know that when the VA rolled out its EHR
program, it was not working the way it should have, and patient
safety has been a very big concern.
So I want to make sure that DOD is working hand-in-hand
with VA so that we can truly have a seamless electronic health
record system that is available across both agencies to serve
service members and veterans alike.
Mr. Vazirani, I want to ask you, can you share some of the
lessons DOD has learned while you rolled out your EHR system?
And how did you earn back the trust with providers and service
members after you had significant periods of system downtime?
Mr. Vazirani. Senator, thank you for that. As we have
rolled out our EHR, the things that we learned, particularly
through that first time period, the things that we--the
barriers that we had in utilization, we have learned about what
we need to do from a usability standpoint to make the EHR more
usable for the healthcare provider. We have learned about the
training that we need to conduct to ensure that there is a
quick ramp-up on utilization. And those are some of the things
and some of the lessons that we have learned and that we shared
with our VA partners.
Senator Murray. Okay. I appreciate that. I wanted to ask
you about women's service members, because transitioning out of
the military is a challenging experience for all service
members, but it is particularly difficult for women who face
additional barriers in the civilian world. Everything from
gender pay caps, to sexual harassment, lack of access to
childcare. And there was a study by Syracuse University that 54
percent of women veterans who left the service didn't feel
prepared to navigate the resources available to them in their
local communities. That is compared to 35 percent of male
veterans.
Mr. Vazirani, has DOD tailored the Transition Assistance
Program at all for women service members?
Mr. Vazirani. Senator, we have. One of the things that we
do through that transition process, and particularly in that--
understanding of what benefits are available, and the care, we
have tailored, particularly the education around health
benefits and how to access health benefits for women. The other
thing that we continue to do is focusing on all veterans, but
particularly for women, is to understand, for those who may
have come across or encountered something along the spectrum of
harm, the resource is available to them there.
Senator Murray. Thank you.
Mr. Vazirani: So I will turn to maybe Mr. Jacobs.
Senator Murray. Very good.
Mr. Vazirani. And he could talk about what VA would?
Senator Murray. Yes.
Mr. Jacobs. Senator, we have what is called the Women's
Health Transition Training program, which provides tailored
support and information for transitioning service members,
includes gender-specific health care information as well as
information about how to access benefits in a timely way. What
I would say is, it is underutilized. So we are working to try
to get the word out and promote and encourage more
transitioning service members to take it, because we do think
it is a valuable resource.
Senator Murray. Okay. Thank you. And one last question. In
last year's Military Family Support Programming Survey, 80
percent of the respondents said their finances were a major
source of stress, and more than half of military and veteran
families reported experiencing barriers to savings over the
previous two years. Twenty-two percent of currently serving
military families, and 38 percent of Veteran's families have
less than $500 or no emergency savings at all. I think
financial literacy is critically important.
And Mr. Vazirani, in my few seconds that I have left, what
is DOD doing, right now, to promote financial literacy and
making sure that it is an integral part of the Transition
Assistance Program?
Mr. Vazirani. Senator, one of the things we do is, from the
very outset, from the time a service member starts in boot
camp, we make sure they understand what financial readiness
resources are available to them. We provide education, and
training, and coaching, and access to personal financial
counselors throughout their time in service.
Senator Murray. Okay. And if I can get a more detailed
response from you, I would really appreciate that.
Mr. Vazirani. Sure.
Senator Murray. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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DoD Response: The Department considers financial readiness to be an
integral part of total force readiness and provides comprehensive
financial literacy training and education to all Service members in
accordance with section 992 of Title 10, United States Code. Mandatory
financial literacy training is delivered at various touchpoints
throughout the military lifecycle as specified in statute, starting at
the very outset in boot camp and continuing through a Service member's
point of transition from service. Touchpoint training topics are chosen
to provide members with the information they need to navigate important
financial decisions at the point of need in the military lifecycle, as
well as build the general financial literacy skills they need to
successfully navigate financial challenges they might encounter
throughout their lifetimes.
To fulfill the statutory requirements to deliver financial literacy
training during transition, all Service members are provided the
``Financial Planning for Transition'' course as part of the Transition
Assistance Program. Specific learning objectives include how to create
and update a spending plan, debt and credit management, fundamentals of
income tax and changes to their tax situation, life insurance, survivor
and dependent benefits, estate planning, emergency savings, how to
manage their Thrift Savings Plan, TRICARE options and costs, and the
components of the military retirement system and how to prepare for
retirement.
While the transition financial training objectives are designed to be
relevant to the point of transition, the comprehensive nature of the
Department's financial literacy education program ensures that
transition is not the first time that members receive training on these
important subjects. Over the course of one's service, training covers
the importance of planning for the future and understanding military
benefits like the Blended Retirement System (BRS). BRS is taught at
numerous training touchpoints, such as during initial entry training,
when vesting in the Thrift Savings Plan, upon entitlement to
continuation pay, during leadership training, and at other major life
events in preparation for when one eventually transitions.
To further support transition and any other life event a Service member
might encounter, DoD also provides members and their families with
access to DoD personal financial counselors who can provide
individualized information that is factual, unbiased, and free from
conflicts of interest. In addition, DoD's financial readiness outreach
efforts reinforce training, encourage sound financial behaviors, and
provide members with the information they need to seek additional
knowledge and access DoD financial literacy and counseling resources.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chairman Tester. Yes. Senator Cotton.
HON. TOM COTTON,
U.S. SENATOR FROM ARKANSAS
Senator Cotton. Mr. Vazirani, I have heard reports that
former U.S. service members have been approached by communist
China and offered jobs that draw on their military expertise to
aid the PLA. This is already happening with some of our
European partners, veterans, oftentimes through professional
military companies in third-world countries, like South Africa.
What steps, if any, has the Department of Defense taken today,
during the transition process, to ensure that our troops are
aware of this kind of activity, and adequately prepared to
resist these offers, especially when done through
intermediaries?
Mr. Vazirani. Senator, we continue to be concerned about
the pacing threat of China, and the approach that they take to
try and undermine what we are doing. We have provided guidance
through the military departments on when our service members
are--there is outreach from mal actors. And Senator, I will be
happy to get back to you with the specific steps we have taken
and the guidance we provide.
Senator Cotton. Yes, could you please get back to me, in
writing, on those steps, and also what mechanisms, if any, you
have in place to track these kinds of offers? Because I do
think it is a growing concern, like I said with our European
partners, but I worry about reports that it is now occurring in
the United States as well.
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------
DoD Response: The Department has focused on outreach to current Service
members, veterans, and retirees to educate them about foreign actors'
attempts to recruit former Service members. These education efforts
include information and training provided to the current force,
outreach through the VA to veterans, and outreach to retirees through
the Defense Finance and Accounting Service. Through education about
foreign actors' practices and intent, we believe current and former
members will be better prepared to recognize and resist these
recruitment efforts.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
I believe that our reserves play a crucial role in the
Nation's defense by allowing the U.S. to retain critical skills
and talents in our services while also allowing active-duty
service members to transition into the reserves; unfortunately,
like the rest of the active-duty military, the reserves are
facing historic shortfalls as well. Has the DOD studied
barriers to transitioning into the reserves from the active
duty?
Mr. Vazirani. Senator, that is, as far as addressing
barriers to transitioning to the reserves, we are looking at
that. We want to ensure that we--particularly as we continue to
rely on the reserve component, one of the things we have been
doing, we brought on our first Chief Talent Management Officer.
An area that we are looking at is permeability between the
active and the reserve component and providing that opportunity
for service members to move from one to the other, active to
reserve, but also the opportunity to come back into the active
component.
Senator Cotton. Okay. In the studies, has the DOD
identified any specific issues that create challenges for
transitioning troops who may have gone into the reserves, but
decided not to?
Mr. Vazirani. Senator, if I can take that for the record,
and I will get back to you with the specific findings?
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------
DoD Response: TAP counseling, information, and support are force
multipliers directly supporting Reserve Component affiliation. The
military services are highly competitive employers of choice, whose
value and worth becomes increasingly apparent in a fully informed
transition/reserve component affiliation environment.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Senator Cotton. You may. One final and related question;
obviously, we want to make sure that every man and woman who
wears the country's uniform, and wants to leave the service is
set up for success in civilian life, or in the reserves if they
choose to go there. But I am also curious about barriers to
remaining--I shouldn't say barriers--drivers to transition when
troops may have stayed on active duty. So as you are studying
the challenges that they have in the transition process, have
you also studied the main issues that are driving their desire
to separate in the first place?
Mr. Vazirani. Senator, one of the things that we are seeing
now is we are seeing actually record levels of retention.
Senator Cotton. Yes.
Mr. Vazirani. And so we are benefiting from that, and that
is certainly helping us in end strength. One of the areas that
we have talked about during this panel that is a driver for
service members to get out, is military spouse employment, and
the opportunity for a service member's military spouse to also
have a successful career, and also contribute to the family's
financial readiness.
So that is an area that we are very--we are working very
hard on to ensure that military spouses have career
opportunities to support their service member, particularly as
we look at our model, which typically requires the service
member to move every two to three years.
Senator Cotton. Okay. Thank you.
Chairman Tester. Senator Peters.
HON. GARY C. PETERS,
U.S. SENATOR FROM MICHIGAN
Senator Peters. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And thank you to
our witnesses here today. Thank you for your work in this area.
I think we can all agree that it is critical that our veterans
have the support they need as they transition into civilian
life.
Which is why it has been a priority of mine, to introduce
legislation that was signed into law to help veterans who may
have been wrongly given a less than honorable discharge from
the military as a result of PTSD and TBI that was simply not
diagnosed; they exhibited behaviors that led to a less than
honorable discharge, and yet those behaviors were a result of
PTSD and traumatic brain injury.
That is why my bill, which was signed into law in 2016,
allows for service members, who have been diagnosed with PTSD,
or TBI, or other related conditions in connection with their
service in the military, they can more easily petition to
upgrade their status.
We know whether a veteran is entitled to VA benefits
depends largely on the discharge status that is assigned to
them. And VA benefits play an absolutely critical role in the
successful transition to civilian life. It remains a key
priority of mine that the Discharge Review Boards continue to
take these types of mental traumas into account when they are
reviewing these petitions. And to that end, this year's NDAA
included a provision that I authored, calling on the GAO to
complete a review of the Discharge Review Board's
implementation of the legislation.
But in order for veterans to access their newly earned
benefits through an upgrade, they first need to be made aware
of the opportunity to petition. That as they are suffering from
the trauma of PTSD and other mental traumas, they don't need to
do that in silence; they can seek out help, but they need to be
aware that it exists.
So Under Secretary Vazirani, and Under Secretary Jacobs,
could you each describe what your agencies are doing to ensure
those leaving or have already left military service are aware
of the opportunities to petition a Discharge Review Board for
an upgrade? And my second question to each of you is, are there
opportunities or additional ways to communicate this option,
perhaps through the Transition Assistance Program? Whoever
would like to go first?
Mr. Vazirani. Senator, first of all, I appreciate the
efforts that you have made to ensure that service members and
veterans receive the benefits that they are entitled to.
We have been working with the military departments to
ensure that service members who have been discharged and want
to seek a change or correction to their record, or a
characterization of discharge are aware of those vehicles. Each
military department maintains their own website that provides
information about the discharge review process and the Boards
of Correction. We, in P&R, also maintain a site, and then we
work jointly with DOD--excuse me--with VA, to maintain a
website that outlines, and has an online tool that will take an
individual through the different steps based on questions of
what they are trying to change and how to get to the right
resource. And so we are working with the VA on that.
At this point, I will turn to Mr. Jacobs.
Senator Peters. Thank you.
Mr. Jacobs. Yes, Senator, thanks for your leadership on
this issue. We know that veterans with an OTH discharge may be
at higher risk for adverse outcomes, so we are actively working
to increase our engagement and outreach, thanks in large part
to Mr. Boerstler, who has worked to create a journey map
leveraging human-centered design to understand where the pain
points and the opportunities are for us. And so we are using
those insights.
We have had a couple of symposiums within the interagency
where we can look at the full life cycle, but also with
veterans who have OTH discharges to understand where there are
challenges and where we can make improvements. And finally,
what I would say is, we are working on a regulation. We have
issued draft regulations, and we are hoping to finalize that
that might address some of these issues.
Senator Peters. Well, I look forward to continuing to work
with you.
Mr. Vazirani. Senator, if I may?
Senator Peters. Yes, please.
Mr. Vazirani. One of the things you asked, your second
question was what are we doing--what else will we do?
Senator Peters. Right, proactively.
Mr. Vazirani. Yes, proactively. So what we are doing is we
are creating resources through our Military OneSource program
to tape webinars that will outline the steps that a service
member would take. We are also developing a learning tool
online that service members--and those will be resources that
service members will be exposed to during the TAP process.
Senator Peters. Good. Great. Thank you.
Mr. Boerstler. And Senator, I would just like to add that
VA's Solid Start, our outbound call program, contacts every
single veteran, regardless of discharge type, to ensure that
they are equipped with the resources they need.
Senator Peters. Okay. Great. Thank you.
Chairman Tester. Senator Ernst.
HON. JONI ERNST,
U.S. SENATOR FROM IOWA
Senator Ernst. Yes, thank you, Mr. Chair. And thanks to all
of our witnesses who are here today for your testimony. We all
know, and as you will witness from a lot of the comments today,
that leaving the service is very complex, and it can be
complicated at times, and I do believe we all need to do our
best for our country's best. And that means supporting all
transitioning service members to be successful.
Many years ago, when I was a young woman, I actually was
part of the Army Career and Alumni Program, the old ACAP
program, and worked at the Job Assistance Center. So one of my
roles was educating members that were leaving the service on
job employment, how to write resumes, fill out job
applications. So I truly appreciated and enjoyed the time that
I had at Fort Benning working with those service members that
were separating. But I know that there is a lot more that we
need to do. So part of this, beyond all the employment
assistance, part of it is mental health education, resource
education.
And so Mr. Vazirani, the first year after discharge is
always, I think, the most difficult for those transitioning
members. And it comes with that increased risk of suicide. I
know my colleague, Senator Hassan, had mentioned the Buddy
Check Program. I was glad to partner with her on that effort.
But getting transitioning service members connected to the
post-service benefits and resources they need as quickly as
possible really has the potential to lower the risk of suicide.
So to what extent does the Transition Assistance Program
provide service members other resources? Again, beyond the
employment, and beyond education resources, we want to focus on
those resources specifically for mental health; what does that
provide?
Mr. Vazirani. Senator, so through the Transition Assistance
Program, we do also want to ensure that the service member has
a successful transition, and so through that assessment
process, as we look across those different domains, we try and
understand where a service member may be at risk, whether it is
at risk of homelessness, whether it is at risk because of
mental health issues, whether it is at risk because of spouse
employment. So we try and tailor the program to that service
member.
I think another area that we have worked very closely
through the Joint Executive Council and in our interagency
partnership is the Benefits Delivery at Discharge, and we have
made that process electronic, where we are sharing information
with the VA now. A service member now can make that application
for benefits between 180 days and 90 days in advance of
separation, so that when they separate they will have that
benefit statement, and they will get that payment earlier on.
So that is an area that we have been collaborating with the VA
on. And I will turn to Mr. Jacobs again.
Senator Ernst. Certainly.
Mr. Jacobs. And Senator, I have the benefit, the
participant's guide that all transitioning service members get
when they attend the VA's 1-day TAP class, that includes an
overview that transitioning service members actually write and
try to tailor to their particular needs. It includes
opportunities for follow-up.
Senator Ernst. That is good.
Mr. Jacobs. We also have benefits advisers where we can
make that warm handoff, and other staff who are there to help
with some of the more personal questions that they may not feel
comfortable asking in a broader group.
Senator Ernst. Okay. Well, I truly appreciate that, because
I know back when I was working in that area, there was a lot of
work to be done. But I appreciate you closing up that gap. One
of the other areas is, of course, on help with filing
disability claims. I could go on and on, but is there a way
that those VA contract employees who are teaching that VA
curriculum at TAP, are they allowed, legally, to assist with VA
claims? And what would be some resources or ways that we could
assist there?
Mr. Jacobs. Yes, no, thanks. One of the ways that we are
working to provide more assistance to help with the filing of
claims is through the upgrades to our TAP 6.0 curriculum, which
is going to launch in January. And through that change, we are
going to add at the end of every day, between 45 and 60
minutes, for accredited VSOs, as well as State Departments of
Veterans Affairs, to come in and speak directly to
transitioning service members and their families.
And that is important for a couple of reasons. One is to
the point that you just said, there is a lot of information. We
are compressing 200 pages into a day. And so there are going to
be follow-up questions, and those VSOs and State Departments of
VA can help in the following days, weeks, and months, either
directly or through a warm handoff to us.
Two, there is a growing risk of predatory actors trying to
target veterans to get their earned benefits. They are charging
money for things that our accredited VSO partners and their
state governments are doing for free and very well. And so by
creating that touchpoint at the end of every TAP class that VA
offers, we are creating that warm connection and helping build
relationships that, hopefully, can be helpful later on.
Senator Ernst. Thank you. And to our Chairs, thank you so
much for the time today. And thank you to our witnesses.
Chairman Tester. Senator Kelly has deferred to Senator
Sinema.
HON. KYRSTEN SINEMA,
U.S. SENATOR FROM ARIZONA
Senator Sinema. Thank you, Chairman. And thank you, Senator
Kelly. Thank you for holding this hearing today and thank you
to our witnesses for being here today. This is an exciting
chance to unify our active-duty priorities and VA priorities to
address important concerns and to strengthen the process all
service members go through when transitioning to civilian life.
Arizona has five active-duty military bases and over 20,000
service members that will someday, we hope, join the almost
half-a-million veterans already living in Arizona. We are proud
that so many veterans call our state home, and want Arizona to
continue to be an attractive place to settle in civilian life.
When transitioning out of military service, it is not enough
just to have resources out there, but our veterans need to be
made aware of all the programs that exist.
The Transition Assistance Program is often criticized for
being too brief and not giving veterans time to retain the
information provided. When losing the group safety net of the
military, our veterans need to be set up to pursue a fulfilling
career after their service. Arizona veterans tell me that,
while the military has given them an invaluable skill set, it
can be difficult to transfer those skills into the civilian
workforce without career guidance from people that understand
their unique circumstances.
So my first question is about the Sergeant Daniel Somers
Veterans Network of Support legislation. We were proud to pass
that into law. In fact, Congress had to pass it twice, once
each for the DOD and for the VA. Together, these bills
established a program where transitioning service members
identify loved ones who will receive updates from the DOD and
VA, respectively, to help them be better informed during the
transition process.
Can you provide me with an update on our pilot from the law
I wrote, and any lessons that we have learned from the process?
Mr. Vazirani. So Senator, thank you for that legislation
and giving us the opportunity to connect to those family
members. I will have to get back to you with--for the record on
the results of the pilot at this stage.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
DoD Response: We are happy to provide an update. The Department of
Defense Military Community and Family Policy (MC&FP) office and the
American Red Cross began collaboration in March 2020, resulting in a
signed Memorandum of Agreement in December 2020. In December 2020, the
pilot landing page was deployed on the Military OneSource website. In
January of 2021, the American Red Cross (ARC) began conducting outreach
and engagement in three ARC regions including New Jersey, the Texas
Gulf Coast (Houston area), and Arizona/New Mexico. The first ``Friends
& Family Connection'' eNewsletter was distributed under the pilot that
same month.
From its inception in December 2020, the Friends & Family Connection
Network of Support pilot landing page gained 203 subscribers by the end
of August 2023. In July 2023, the Network of Support Pilot Survey,
scheduled to run for four weeks, was released. In August 2023, an
reminder was sent to complete the survey. On August 28, 2023, the
survey closed with only 20 participants having responded. We are
currently consolidating the data and preparing information for a
pending report due to Congress.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mr. Jacobs. And I would just add, you know, personally I
know my wife helps make sure that I get to my annual physical,
that I do all the things, and I know that is a big source of
support for many transitioning service members, particularly
given the breadth, the depth, the scope of the information that
is being provided. So continuing to encourage spouses is really
important to attend. But we are also mindful that sometimes
they just can't make it during the day so--or while they are
actually still in uniform; so some of the off-based training
that DOL provides is also a really great resource, and then
continuing to follow up in the first year after they transition
to try to connect those dots as well.
Senator Sinema. Thank you. I would like to follow up with
each of the Departments on more detailed information about the
success or challenges that the pilot is experiencing. As
mentioned in previous testimony, transition from the military
can take a lifetime. In last Congress, we passed my bill to
Reduce Unemployment for Veterans of All Ages Act. That lifted
the arbitrary 12-year time limit on VA's vocational rehab and
employment, for VR&E Program for veterans with service-
connected disabilities.
Can you provide an update on the VR&E Program, specifically
any details on how it is being used by older generations of
veterans?
Mr. Jacobs. Yes, Senator, I would have to get back to you
for the record with more details, but what I would say is we
have seen an increased demand for VR&E services, particularly
in the aftermath of the PACT Act. It is one of our most
impactful programs that we provide tailored to the individual
needs, and it helps many more veterans as they are figuring out
how to transition in their career goals. And so I would be
happy to follow up with you or your staff in addition to in
writing.
Senator Sinema. Thank you. I appreciate that. Another
benefit for transitioning service members is the SkillBridge
Program which has a great deal of support from industry
partners at home in Arizona, but once service members become
aware of this program it is often too late for them to
participate. How can you better spread awareness and encourage
participation?
Mr. Vazirani. Senator, thank you. We also believe that the
SkillBridge Program is a very effective program. One of the
things that we are doing is, in the transition counseling
process is making sure that the service members are aware of
SkillBridge as a transition program, we are also ensuring that
commanders are aware of the benefits of the program to ensuring
the success of the transition of that service member, so they
get those experiences working with companies, and/or
nonprofits, or state agencies in order to put their skills to
use and understand how they may be able to apply those when
they do transition to becoming a civilian.
Senator Sinema. Thank you, Chairman.
Chairman Tester. Back to back Arizona; Senator Kelly.
HON. MARK KELLY,
U.S. SENATOR FROM ARIZONA
Senator Kelly. Thank you Mr. Chairman, and thank you
Chairman Reed as well, and Ranking Member Wicker, and Ranking
Member Moran, for holding this very critical joint hearing on
the Military to Civilian Transition.
As a Navy veteran myself I know how critical and how
crucial support of our Nation's service members and their
families is to ensuring their continued success after their
service to our country. An Army survey of young adults aged 18
to 28 found that nearly 21 percent believe that joining the
military--and this surprised me--joining the military puts
their lives on hold. This perception could not be further from
the truth.
I am a veteran who took, you know, my time in service in
the U.S. Navy, you know, started with training to be a pilot,
and then I was a combat pilot. And then after that I earned a
Master's Degree in Engineering, and then went to school to
become a test pilot, did that job for a while, and later had
the opportunity to serve at NASA as an astronaut. I wasn't
putting my life on hold.
You know, we need to be sharing the message about the
incredible honor it is to serve, and just the--but I would also
like--that it is a great job because of the challenges, because
of the travel benefits, the teamwork, the camaraderie, but also
the focus on a mission, and how great it is to have the
opportunity to serve your country. And we need to do that work
by providing support for our service members as they
transition, as well as into their transition from military to
civilian life.
So thank you to all the witnesses for being here, and for
your work to support the success of our Nation's service
members, and veterans, and their families. And I know that a
successful transition often requires a lot of time, and it
requires planning, and it requires conversations with family.
Service members need support to think about professional
development from an early point in their military careers,
whether that development will occur in their service to our
country, or whether it will be later in civilian life.
And by beginning these conversations early on we are
setting our service members and military families up for
success. So I commend DOD for significantly increasing
participation in DOD's Transition Assistance Program. And I
know that DOD can do better, and can do better early on.
So Secretary Vazirani, and Mr. Sawyer, how can each service
further improve their career and professional development
programming to support earlier integration in a service
member's career?
Mr. Vazirani. Senator thank you for your comments, and I
agree with you wholeheartedly that military service is a
powerful way for Americans to set themselves apart while in
service and beyond their service. As far as starting earlier, a
number of the programs that we have that are not--that are
aligned with but not specifically associated with transition,
for example, the Tuition Assistance Program, help service
members develop--either earn degrees, or develop credentials,
certifications that will help them in their military service,
or beyond their military service.
The other things that we do are helping service members to
translate the work that they do into what could be a civilian
career when they decide to transition, and that is through our
credentialing program. We help service members achieve
credentials and we also help them translate the work that they
do through their MOS into career opportunities understanding
where they can apply those credentials.
Senator Kelly. And Mr. Sawyer, what else--in the remaining
few seconds I have--how can Congress help you with this in
improving this process?
Mr. Sawyer. And thank you for that. The continued oversight
that you are providing and I believe holding DOD and the
agencies accountable for implementing the recommendations that
we have given to them in this area. Awareness, ensuring that
service members are becoming aware of the timeliness and 2-day
class requirements, is another area that could be helpful. And
for the Department we have issued recommendations asking them
to develop performance goals with these programs and to
evaluate those programs to ensure that objectives are being
achieved.
Senator Kelly. Well, thank you both. And I think it is so
important that we continue to get the message out that serving
in the U.S. Military is not putting your life on hold. Thank
you.
Chairman Tester. Senator Sullivan.
HON. DAN SULLIVAN,
U.S. SENATOR FROM ALASKA
Senator Sullivan. Thank you Mr. Chairman. And gentlemen,
thank you for being here. I think this is a really important
hearing because we all know this is a win-win proposition for
everybody, employers, our country needs hard workers, our
members of the military, their families to be able to come off
active duty and go into a good-paying job, and then to have a
workforce where the men and women that you hire know what it is
like to have discipline and get up at 0500, or 0400, or
whatever, and be on time, I mean this is a win all over the
place.
So I want to ask a specific question. I had a provision
that was in last year's NDAA that encouraged DOD to partner
with local employers, local unions, the building trades in
Alaska, in particular, hire a lot of members coming out of the
military. And what I have seen is that a lot of times it is
really base-commander-specific. Meaning, a base commander at
JBER might be like: Yes, let us bring the unions and employers
on base, our guys can start doing transition stuff early
before, you know--one day before they get out. And then you
have a new commander, and all that goes away.
So what my NDAA provision was to try to get DOD to focus
on, kind of from a broad perspective, let us do that across the
board. And can I get an update from any of you on where DOD has
been with regard to working with these groups that hire? Like I
said, local unions, a lot of them have a really good program,
the IBEW, for example, has a really good program in Alaska, in
contractors, in the construction trades. If you have an update
on that I would love to hear about it, but you might recall
this provision.
And then I do want to--maybe I will just ask the second
question next. It follows up on Senator Kelly's question about
credentialing, and the one area in particular that I think is
really important is the maritime industry. You might remember
President Trump signed an Executive order that would make it
easier for transitioning military members in the maritime space
to waive licenses, in allowing their experience to count toward
Merchant Mariner credentialing, and other credentials. But
again, these are super well trained, ready to go, and sometimes
we make it hard, a lot of times we make it hard.
So two questions I will throw it out to any and all the
witnesses, but if you can take that first one first, and then
the one on credentialing following up on Senator Kelly's
question. Thank you.
Mr. Vazirani. Senator, so we continue to work with
employers, and try and expand the engagement with employers, to
help transitioning veterans. So we continue to grow the
SkillBridge Program.
Senator Sullivan. Yes. The SkillBridge program is great by
the way and I think it--do you think it is going well?
Mr. Vazirani. Senator, we do believe it is going well. We
have had over 22,000 participants in the SkillBridge Program
last year.
Senator Sullivan. Great.
Mr. Vazirani. A high percentage of those participants
convert to full-time employee with their SkillBridge
internship. We are replicating that program for military
spouses, with the Military Spouse Career Accelerator Program,
providing them with a 12-week fellowship, so that they can gain
that. And we are seeing an 80 percent conversion there as well.
Senator Sullivan. Do you agree with me it is a little bit
base-commander dependent? And we could do a better job of kind
of making sure everybody is on board with this, or is that just
something I am seeing back home in Alaska?
Mr. Vazirani. Senator, I do believe that there are areas of
the country where, particularly for service members who want to
stay in the place they want to retire from the locations they
are in, that we can probably do a better job engaging at the
local level, and local employers.
Senator Sullivan. Yes.
Mr. Vazirani. And so Senator, that is something that I will
take back. I would love to work with you and your team----
Senator Sullivan. Great.
Mr. Vazirani [continuing]. To figure out how do we drive
more local engagement at across the enterprise with
consistency.
Senator Sullivan. Yes. That is really important. That is
what my NDAA provision from last year was about. And then real
quick on credentialing, anyone who wants to take that one on? I
know it is a big topic, but it has got so much promise.
Mr. Vazirani. Senator, there we continue to focus on our
credentialing program. We provide a tool that will allow
service members to gain their credential, and a tool also as
well to figure out how to----
Senator Sullivan. When they are still on active duty?
Mr. Vazirani. While they are still on active duty----
Senator Sullivan. Oh. Good.
Mr. Vazirani [continuing]. To earn their credentials. And
then we engage with the Department of Labor through the U.S.
Military Apprenticeship Program, and service members can gain a
Department of Labor Journeyman Certificate, and we have over
93,000 participants in that program. And Mr. Rodriguez may want
to comment.
Mr. Rodriguez. Thank you, Mr. Vazirani. Senator, I just
wanted to add that I spent a week in Alaska, and I visited the
Commanders at JBER. If you recall, during my confirmation
hearing, and you asked me to go to Alaska, so we spent the week
there.
Senator Sullivan. Thank you.
Mr. Rodriguez. I met with the commanders. They said exactly
what you did: They wanted connections to the local community.
We had our state director come; we actually went to the
American Job Center there at the local level to ensure that
they were connected. And we spoke to the Electric Workers Union
out there, IBEW. I visited them as well.
Senator Sullivan. Good.
Mr. Rodriguez. So there is a strong relationship at the
local community with the commanders, but as you mentioned, that
often changes when the commander does change--they have a
change of command, but the resources are there at the local
levels. We have to ensure that they understand that those
resources exist and make sure that we are continually
connecting with the incoming commanders as well.
Senator Sullivan. Great. Thank you. Thank you, Mr.
Chairman.
Chairman Tester. Senator Blumenthal.
HON. RICHARD BLUMENTHAL,
U.S. SENATOR FROM CONNECTICUT
Senator Blumenthal. Thanks, Mr. Chairman. As I go around
the State of Connecticut, and I am sure my colleagues have the
same experience, what I find is, again and again, small- and
medium-sized businesses saying to me: We need people with
skills, particularly in manufacturing. Every year, I guess the
estimate is 200,000 service members transition back to civilian
life, that is a potential pool of skilled labor that right now,
I am guessing, is only partially used for manufacturing,
particularly by those small- and medium-sized businesses.
A Government Accountability Office released a January 2023
Report that urged the VA to collaborate with Veterans Service
Organizations in identifying outreach gaps. The combination of
VSOs and small businesses, I think, offer a real opportunity
for apprenticeship, on-the-job training, perhaps even skills
provided while on active duty in anticipation of potential jobs
outside.
The military is one of the great educational forces, if not
the greatest in America today, in terms of its resources and
the numbers of people that it involves. So I would like to ask
this panel what your ideas are for enhancing the skill training
and job placement in manufacturing, or small- and medium-sized
businesses around the country?
Mr. Rodriguez. Senator, I will take this question. First, I
just visited an advanced manufacturing company, Rockwell
Technologies, in Wisconsin, and their premise was they cannot
hire enough veterans. They want to get more veterans into
advanced manufacturing, so they are working across the veteran
community to make sure that they are aware of these types of
resources exist for training. Apprenticeship programs we know
are extremely valuable, $80,000 starting salary when someone
completes an apprenticeship program, and a 90-percent hire rate
post-apprenticeship.
So through our regional veteran employment coordinators
located across the entire country, we are connecting
corporations and veterans across the entire country to these
types of opportunities. And we do this in conjunction with the
SkillBridge Program. As they are working on SkillBridge, when
they do get the opportunity to participate in DOD, for those
who don't get to participate in it, we have opportunities that
we are working to solidify with companies across the entire
country.
Also, as part of Task Force Movement, which I sit on that
organization's structure there, we are looking at, again, how
do we align manufacturing organizations to locate this talent
and make sure that they are connected with these opportunities
that exist?
Mr. Boerstler. And Senator, I would add as well, in
partnership with the Department of Labor and Department of
Defense, we send a weekly email called ``Vet Resources'' to
about 14 million subscribers, veterans and their families
across the country. That includes links to jobs that are
routinely updated, sometimes daily, when we connect with the
corporate sector, the commercial sector, to cull these jobs.
And more importantly, I think the jointness that we, you
know, continue to share these resources with our veterans and
their families, through that channel, and many others, is a
great way to connect the dots between the commercial sector and
our veterans.
Mr. Vazirani. Senator, the other thing I will add, is in
the TAP program, in the tailored instruction in the 2-day
courses, there is a 2-day course delivered by the Small
Business Administration that can help service members
transitioning explore opportunities in small business, either
as an entrepreneur or working in a small business.
Senator Blumenthal. Thank you all. Thank you for your
service. And I hope, perhaps, the next panel will address this
question as well because I think the Veterans Service
Organizations can play an important role in this challenge.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Tester. Senator Tillis.
HON. THOM TILLIS,
U.S. SENATOR FROM NORTH CAROLINA
Senator Tillis. Thank you, Chair Tester. And thank you,
gentlemen, for being here. A couple of questions; I was in here
earlier, and one thing that I am curious about is, to what
extent does the TAP program emphasize and ensure that we get a
connection with the VA upon separation?
Mr. Vazirani. Senator, so in the TAP program, one of the
specific core courses is a session that is led by the VA, so
that is----
Senator Tillis. Yes. But I mean, we are leading them to
water, but we know if you take a look at the number of suicides
that occur, on average, about two-thirds of the people who
commit suicide every day are not connected to the VA. So I know
that there is--it is obviously a natural transition because it
is a discussion about benefits and everything else, but to what
extent does the TAP program remain focused on, not only leading
them to water, but actually enrolling and becoming connected?
And I would be also curious, Mr. Sawyer, if you have any
observations on that.
Mr. Vazirani. Senator, I will comment just briefly on the
particular piece that you mentioned about suicide and suicide
prevention. So through that transition process, we conduct a
mental health assessment. There is also a single--we are
working on this, a single health assessment with the VA, so
that if we identify that a service member may be at risk, or
has been treated for mental health, then they are referred into
the inTransition Program, and then that information is shared
with the VA. So we start that process early, and we are very
focused on ensuring that there is continuity of care so that in
that transition period, the 365 days following----
Senator Tillis. Okay. Mr. Jacobs, do you have anything to
add? I am going to go fast, because I have got one other point
I want to make related to it.
Mr. Jacobs. We think there is a moral imperative to connect
veterans to their earned benefits and health care, because it
is exactly to your point. When veterans utilize their earned
benefits in health care, they do better, and it is not only in
terms of reduced suicide rates, but it is better health
outcomes, better economic opportunities.
So we have a 1-day TAP course. One of the ways that we are
enhancing it is by including our VSO, accredited VSO, and State
Department of Veterans Affairs partners, and that is important
because, you know, this is 200 pages of information about VA
benefits and health care. It is a lot to digest in one day.
Senator Tillis. And most people aren't going to.
Mr. Jacobs. They are going to come back with more
questions. And our VSO partners and state partners can help
them as one more fact.
Senator Tillis. Okay. Mr. Sawyer, you have something to
add, briefly?
Mr. Sawyer. Thank you. I would just like to add that GAO
does have ongoing work that is looking at mental health and
suicide prevention for transitioning service members, as well
as the warm handover process, and we would love to meet with
you to----
Senator Tillis. I am going to make sure I stay within time.
But I did want to go back to something that Chair Reed
mentioned about the electronic health record, I have been
following. I was on Senate Armed Services until last Congress
following the electronic health record implementation. DOD,
good on you all for getting it done. We have got to get it done
in the VA. It is a long way from being done.
Until those two platforms are completely implemented, we
probably need some duct tape and baling wire to get data that
we can use to better predict--and better predict what we should
be trying--I have said in this Committee before: It will be
great when we have a TAP audience of one. We are not there yet.
But one of the ways that we can get there is through predictive
analytics. And one thing that came to my mind is whether or not
we should take a look at information that we had in the
electronic health record for the service member and see if we
could use predictive analytics to say that this person could be
in crisis, and sadly, correlate that using historic records.
Sadly, probably correlate that to this veterans' population who
has committed suicide.
And then if you start thinking: If there is a statistical
correlation there, then that should begin to be something that
is very, very much embedded in future TAP programs. My time has
expired. Thank you.
Chairman Reed. Thank you, Senator Tillis. And on behalf of
Senator Tester, let me recognize Senator Hirono.
HON. MAZIE K. HIRONO,
U.S. SENATOR FROM HAWAII
Senator Hirono. I thank both Chairs for this hearing, as I
sit on both Committees. This is for Secretary Vazirani and
Secretary Jacobs, since I have both of you here. There is a
huge issue on Oahu in which veterans are having difficulty
accessing critical health care services at the Matsunaga CBOC,
which is located at Tripler Army Medical Center.
Can you both look into what DOD and VA can do to make it
easier for veterans to get on base for care and report back to
the Committees and my staff? I think this should be, I hope, a
pretty easy fix, because what is happening is when our veterans
try to get on base, they have their VA card, VA ID cards, and
apparently that is not adequate to get on base. And they are
supposed to have a DOD-compliant ID. So can both of you figure
this out, and make it easier for veterans to get the care that
they need from the Matsunaga CBOC?
Mr. Vazirani. Senator, we are certainly committed to taking
care of people, and beyond the transition point as well. We are
working through the Joint Executive Council on access to bases
for veterans. We are working through a common ID, to develop a
common ID that can be utilized. And I certainly commit to
getting back to you on a solution.
Senator Hirono. Why can't the VA, why can't they just use
their VA ID? Anyway, that is an idea. Rather than requiring
them to go get a whole another ID.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
DoD Response: The DoD does accept the Veteran Health Identification Card
(VHIC) as a valid VA credential for accessing military installation.
This credential is specifically identified in DoD Manual 5200.08,
Volume 3. As of September 30, 2022, approximately 176,000 VHIC were
enrolled for recurring installation access, an increase of
approximately 56,000 since September 30, 2021. To further enhance
access to military installations, the VA-DoD Joint Executive Committee
has directed the establishment of a data transfer from the VA to the
DoD that identifies all VA Service-Connected Disabled (SCD) Veterans,
recipients of the Purple Heart, former Prisoners of War, and all
enrolled VA caregivers. Once this data transfer is established (June
2024), Veterans and VA enrolled caregivers will be able to utilize a
REAL ID complaint driver's license along with the behind-the-scenes
data transfer to establish eligibility to access the installation for
medical appointments, visit the commissary, or use of eligible Morale,
Welfare and Recreation facilities. The VHIC will still be a valid
credential.
There are three things required to access an installation: IDENTITY,
PURPOSE, and FITNESS. More often than not, an installation access issue
has to do with the Veteran (or their caregiver) unable to establish
FITNESS. That is, they have been flagged for relevant criminal arrest
information that prohibits access to the installation, during their
background check at a Military Visitor Information Center. A second
common access issue is that the VA facility failed to provide an update
to the medical appointment roster provided to the DoD, and therefore
the Veteran is unable to establish PURPOSE. However, a call to the VA
facility can more often than not address this issue. Generally, the
installation and the medical facility can work through the PURPOSE
issue. Finally, VA reports issues of base access up their chain of
command. Those issues identified as being based on DoD policy are
transferred to the DoD. In the last six months VA has only reported two
instances as a result of DoD policy (one in Alaska and one in Florida).
As a result, the DoD coordinates directly with the installation to
correct the deficiency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Next question for Mr. Jacobs; regarding the Solid Start
Program; does VA track--during which stage of Solid Start
veterans stop responding to outreach? The idea is that, at
certain specific time frames, the 200,000 veterans a year are
supposed to be contacted within 90 days, 180 days, and 360
days. Do you keep data on when they stop responding?
And I would also like to know what are the questions that
they are asked? Because this program is supposed to be a check-
in to help address concerns, connect the VA with resources. So
do they get asked things like; whether they have experienced
sexual assault during their time in service, whether they
exhibit suicide ideation? What kinds of questions are asked of
the VAs as you make these contacts?
Mr. Jacobs. Yes. Thanks, Senator, for that question. So
through our Solid Start Program, we contact transitioning--
recently transitioned veterans at three points in the one-year
after they have left the military. It is usually around the 90,
180, and 365-day mark. In some cases, we can connect with those
veterans quite easily. We send an email in advance, making sure
that they know, because many veterans don't answer--many
Americans don't answer phone calls from numbers they don't know
about. We call at each increment seven times. So if we don't--
if we are not able to successfully contact them, we move on.
But then we continue to try to contact.
And the goal here is really personalized, individual
attention. So it is really focused on, one, making sure that if
there is a mental health crisis, that we can help them. But
two, it is making sure that we are connecting them to the
benefits and the care that they need, whether it is an update
on their status--the status of their----
Senator Hirono. So I know what the purpose is of Solid
Start.
Mr. Jacobs. Yes. Yes.
Senator Hirono. But is there a time frame in which the
veterans stop responding to contacts within this one-year time
frame?
Mr. Jacobs. We have been able to connect with about 75 to
80 percent of veterans through the Solid Start. But I would
have to get back to you with more specific data.
Senator Hirono. Isn't there a standard list of questions
that the contactor is asking so that they can ascertain whether
services need to be--so they can be connected with services?
Can you send me those questions?
Mr. Jacobs. I would be happy to follow up. And we do also
try to make sure that it is open-ended so that we are--it is
not overly prescriptive, but we can get back with some more
detailed information on that.
Senator Hirono. Thank you. My time is running out, but I
did have one question, Mr. Chairman; both Chairs, if I can ask
about SkillBridge.
Chairman Tester. For the record.
Senator Hirono. I think--oh, shoot. You are not going to
let me ask the question.
Chairman Tester. I can't do it. We have got another panel.
Senator Hirono. Okay. Sorry about that. I will submit the
question.
Chairman Tester. Senator Blackburn.
HON. MARSHA BLACKBURN,
U.S. SENATOR FROM TENNESSEE
Senator Blackburn. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you
all for being with us. I think we all have plenty of questions.
I want to stay with that Solid Start Program, Mr. Jacobs, if we
can do that. So I want to be sure that I am following you on
this. The veterans are contacted by phone call 90, 180, and 365
days into the program; is that accurate?
Mr. Jacobs. Yes, Senator.
Senator Blackburn. Okay. And then you confirm that they
have received a mental health evaluation in the last year of
their service?
Mr. Jacobs. No.
Senator Blackburn. Oh. Okay.
Mr. Jacobs. So the goal is to try to identify, I think the
reason that the program was stood up in 2019 was recognizing
the first year post-transition is a high risk for some
veterans.
Senator Blackburn. Okay. So then--I want to confirm that I
heard this right, too. So the VA, through the VA Solid Start
Program, the VA receives information that is shared from DOD to
VA?
Mr. Jacobs. Yes, Senator?
Senator Blackburn. Okay. And that is what you use to
ascertain veterans that are eligible for these mental health
services, right?
Mr. Jacobs. Yes. So the----
Senator Blackburn. Okay. All right. Let me move on then. So
these veterans are deemed a priority, correct?
Mr. Jacobs. We do receive information for high priority.
Senator Blackburn. Okay. So they are automatically enrolled
in the VA system, and they have their profiles flagged for
licensed professional mental health counselors so that they can
start that dialogue; is that accurate?
Mr. Jacobs. No. They are not automatically enrolled. They
have to enroll at their own discretion.
Senator Blackburn. They have to enroll. So what is the wait
time to enroll?
Mr. Jacobs. I would have to get that for the record.
Senator Blackburn. Okay. So I will submit that in writing.
Now, one of the things of interest to me is, if you have got
all this data and you are transferring it from DOD to VA, why
would an individual have to wait weeks to get their
information? I have got several veterans that are a part of our
team back in Tennessee and here in DC, and it makes no sense
that one of our team members had to wait 14 weeks to get their
medical documents from the DOD, and then had to wait for VA to
schedule appointments. So if you are doing it for one sector,
it seems like you could kind of clean up the system and do it
across the board.
Mr. Jacobs. Senator, I would like to get the information on
the individual team member so that we can personally address
that, and also correct it----
Senator Blackburn. Well, I think, writ large, just the fact
that people have to wait so long to get their information, then
they have got to wait again----
Mr. Jacobs. Yes.
Senator Blackburn [continuing]. To get an appointment.
Going to the TAP program, we have had a lot of fun looking at
this with you all, into the TAP program. I had some comments
that I am going to take my time to read, these come from
different members of our team. I would like to note that TAP--
let us see: He wished he went back to take advantage of the
program more and appreciated the classes offered, but he had
managed a $180 million budget, and felt like this program was
one-size-fits-all, and he had to go back and take the class on
budget.
So these need to be personalized more. Here are some more
comments, ``Some of the contractors that work there have never
successfully transitioned, themselves. The contractor teaching
my class how to get a DC and V-suite job in the corporate
world.'' He was a retired E6 that got his job teaching our
class right out of his retirement. So he had no experience;
``Wasting days teaching me, a 20-year veteran, how to do a
simple budget, handing me a VA book and telling me all I need
to know is in there.'' ``Holding job fairs every Wednesday that
consist of a truck driver, L-E-O, or assembly line position.
Resumes produced that are not just lukewarm; they are not
helpful.'' So I think that if we are going to put the money
into this, then we need to see some personalization.
My time has expired. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Tester. Senator King.
HON. ANGUS S. KING, JR.,
U.S. SENATOR FROM MAINE
Senator King. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Those of us who are
on both Committees, get twice the time; is that correct?
Chairman Tester. Divided by two.
Senator King. Yes, I see. Thank you. I figured. I did want
to mention there was some talk earlier about spouse employment,
and Senator Sinema, Lankford, myself, and Senator Fischer got a
bill passed in the Senate about a month ago requiring the
Federal Government to allow remote working for military spouses
at any government agency. So that is a step forward. We need to
get it through the further process, but it has been passed by
the Senate.
How much of this is legislation, and how much is
implementation? One of my life mottos is, implementation is as
important as vision. And it sounds like what we are really
talking about today is implementation. And do you need new
authorities? Do you come to us with recommendations for any
changes to the law, additional funding, or additional
resources?
Mr. Vazirani, do you need anything further from us? Or do
you have the authorities you need, and it is just a question of
working the system?
Mr. Vazirani. Senator, thank you for that, and the
opportunity to express this; one of the things I think we found
is that the work through the Joint Executive Council has really
helped in this collaboration, and in taking the authorities
that you provided us and implementing them.
Senator King. I like the idea of the Joint Executive
Council. By the way do you--does the Joint Executive Council
ever meet with veterans and Veterans Service Organizations,
have focus groups, polling, and just input from your customers?
Mr. Vazirani. Senator, the working committees do have those
kinds of engagements, and we do have them at the Joint
Executive Council as well. We do bring people in to talk
through ideas. So we continue to work that. I think through
that interagency process, we have worked through, and we are
understanding where we may have difficulties or barriers; and
Senator, as we do that, we would appreciate the opportunity to
come back to you and let you know if we do need additional
authorities.
Senator King. I hope you will. And I hope all of you will
take advantage of my invitation to suggest any changes in
authorities, any federal statutes that are obstacles to the
implementation. Here is a question that occurs to me: we are
talking about TAP, which I understand is a mandatory program.
What would the base commander do if a soldier skipped a
mandatory weapons safety class? My suspicion is he or she would
make sure they got to that class. Is this, again, an
implementation at the base commander level?
Mr. Vazirani. Senator, we continue to work through that and
ensuring that commanders who have the responsibility to balance
the mission readiness along with care for the service member.
And that is why we have the commander engaged at that 90-day
point for that capstone to review how the service member is
engaging. And, as Mr. Boerstler has indicated, we are creating
that dashboard so that a commander can track how a service
member will----
Senator King. There is something seriously wrong, if 70
percent don't meet the one-year guideline, that is a serious
problem. And it seems to me that is an accountability problem.
So I hope that is a priority.
We talked about credentialing. Isn't one of the issues with
credentialing state laws, and to what extent are we able to
work with states and state COMPACTs? So if you learned to be a
plumber or electrician in the military, you don't have to go
out and spend a year going through a state process to get a
license to be a plumber or an electrician.
Mr. Labor, what is your view of that one?
Mr. Rodriguez [continuing]. But I going to say, so I
apologize there. Senator, one of the things that was passed in
2021, that there was the ability for states to have reciprocity
agreements with regards to accepting those licenses and
credentials----
Senator King. And is that happening; that is my question?
Mr. Rodriguez. That is one of the things we are working on
with the states. We are trying to ensure that they understand,
one, that agreement exist, but also for the military spouses to
be educated about that as well, as well as the Department of
Defense's Legal Departments to ensure that they can provide
support to those military spouses to have conversations with
the State Departments.
Mr. King. I think that would be a place where some emphasis
should be placed to work with the states' press, the states,
because all the states talk about wanting to help veterans.
This is one clear way they can do it.
I am out of time, but one additional issue that has come up
in other hearings we have had is financial counseling that is
necessary for many veterans because they are suddenly out into
the Wild West of civilian life. And so financial counseling is
something that is important. Thank you all. And a hearing like
this always focuses on the negative, on what is not being done.
You all are doing a lot. And I just want you to know that we
appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Tester. So here is what is going to happen because
nature is calling some. And we are going to take about a five-
minute break for the panelists, be back--I am sorry to do that
to you guys, but you know how it is. And then get back. We will
finish up, and then we will go to the second panel so--and you
can go vote right now if you want. Okay?
So we are adjourned for five minutes. And it will be five
minutes.
[Whereupon, at 12:10 p.m. to 12:15 p.m. there was a
recess.]
Chairman Tester. If nobody else shows up, we have got about
another 12 minutes, and then we will get to the second panel;
if you are good with those, Senator Budd.
HON. TED BUDD,
U.S. SENATOR FROM NORTH CAROLINA
Senator Budd. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And again, thank you
all for the panel for being here today.
Mr. Boerstler, North Carolina has taken great efforts to
integrate veteran communities. It is something we hold dear,
and it is very important to us in North Carolina. Here are some
examples. NCServes, launched in 2015, it was the Nation's first
statewide coordinated network for veterans and military
families, and North Carolina communities were some of the first
to adopt the Community Veterans Engagement Board structure in
2016, with seven of those CVEBs now locally led by nonprofit
leaders and working very closely with the Department of
Veterans Affairs.
North Carolina leaders are also part of Mission 85, it is a
three-state effort in North Carolina, South Carolina, and
Georgia, to align local, state, and federal, and nonprofit
resources to improve the quality and continuity of care for
veterans along Interstate 85 in North Carolina. You are
familiar with those efforts?
Mr. Boerstler. Yes, Senator, very familiar. Thank you.
Senator Budd. Great. It seems like we are leading the
country in efforts to improve veteran reintegration. So that
being the case, how would you like to see this model--it sounds
like you are familiar with, how would you like to see this
utilized in other states?
Mr. Boerstler. Well, thank you very much, Senator. I think,
with the leadership of the Veterans Bridge Home, in particular,
that help steward the NCServes initiative you mentioned, they
are a critical part of our Vet Resources Community Network,
which is a nationwide community of practice that shares these
lessons from North Carolina with other states that want to
align with a lot of the objectives that they have set out.
And CVEBs, Community Veterans Engagement Boards, as you
mentioned, are still fantastic listening posts and observation
posts for us out in the field that can relay customer and
employee experiences directly to the facilities that are in
their backyards, but also VA's Central Office. So they are
incredibly essential. They are the conduit between that
installation and that return home to the community. And we are
glad to partner with not only these partners, but also our
State Departments of Veterans Affairs who are in tandem.
Senator Budd. Thank you, sir.
Mr. Vazirani, in your written statement, you state, often,
and I quote this, ``Often military spouses find the transition
of their service member an ideal time to begin, restart, or re-
energize their career.'' So unfortunately, that is also a
statement about a lack of employment opportunities while their
spouse is in service. So would you agree that though the
Department--that through the Department, they should work to
improve spouse employment opportunities, not just in
transition, but also during service?
Mr. Vazirani. Senator, we firmly believe that military
spouse employment is critical to the successful service of the
service member and to a successful transition. So we are
working very hard across the interagency, also with states, to
ensure that military spouses have employment opportunities. We
also work with our corporate nonprofit partners to ensure that
there are good career opportunities for military spouses.
Senator Budd. Thank you. So what is the Department doing to
improve spousal employment opportunities, particularly when a
military family relocates during the transition back to
civilian life?
Mr. Vazirani. Senator, so through our Military Spouse
Employment Program, there is a specific aspect through the
transition period called MySTeP, which helps a military spouse,
through that transition process, finding new opportunities. One
of the new programs that we have is called the Military Spouse
Career Accelerator Program. So it is a SkillBridge-like
program. We engage with corporate nonprofit partners, provide a
12-week fellowship for a military spouse. They gain pointed
experience, and we are seeing that we are having a very high
conversion rate of those spouses into full-time employment with
their fellowship sponsor.
Senator Budd. Let me make sure I am not asking the same
question, can you talk specifically about DOD's Military Spouse
Employment Partnership? I don't think that is the same one you
were just referring to, unless it is.
Mr. Vazirani. So they are slightly different programs. The
Military Spouse Employment Partnership is where we engage with
employers to actually--to bring on full-time hires. And we
continue to grow that program. In fact, we are inducting today,
130 new partners into our Military Spouse Employment
Partnership Program.
Senator Budd. So this Military Spouse Employment
Partnership, the MSEP, what are current limitations to the
program, if any?
Mr. Vazirani. I think the current limitation is just
expanding our reach, and helping employers to understand the
benefits of employing military spouses. We know that military
spouses are, in many cases, significantly more qualified than
their civilian counterparts. They have higher levels of
education. We also know that through that military experience,
they develop a level of resilience and a level of ingenuity
that proves them to be very successful employees.
Senator Budd. Thank you. My time has expired.
Chairman Tester. Senator Budd, I appreciate yours and
Senator Rosen's patience. Senator Rosen.
HON. JACKY ROSEN,
U.S. SENATOR FROM NEVADA
Senator Rosen. And thank you, Chairman Tester. It is a
really important hearing. You know, our servicemen, how we care
for them as they transition, it really makes a difference. I
want to agree with Senator King that streamlining and
implementation is always key to success, reducing the, I guess,
paperwork is always the most stressful thing for people. So I
want to talk about a reserve and guard demobilization.
So Secretary Vazirani and Secretary Rodriguez, these are
for you. I am concerned with the demobilization process for
guard and reserve service members transitioning from active-
duty orders back to reserve status. The reserve component, they
are required to complete the TAP program, even though they are
not separating from the military. The TAP curriculum is
tailored to individuals separating from military service
entirely rather than returning to reserve status in their
civilian applications.
So instead of receiving help completing travel vouchers,
and reimbursements for costs incurred during their mobilization
and deployment, reservists are forced to take classes tailored
to those leaving the military and starting new lives as
civilians. We have heard a lot about this from our reserve men
and women in Nevada.
So as such, they must figure out the burdensome, let me
tell you, burdensome reimbursement process on their own. And
the reserve components just face their own direct set of
challenges, as they lack access to day-to-day services
available to either active-duty troops, because they are not at
their 28 unit days of the month to be able to sit down with
someone for help.
So I get to get language in the FY '24 NDAA that encourages
DOD to modify the demobilization process for the reserve
component to better address their needs and circumstances, and
this requires the Committee be briefed on actions taken to
improve this process.
So for both of the Secretaries, Vazirani and Rodriguez, how
would you improve this reserve component part so it better
focuses on what they actually need, particularly this is a huge
stressor, this financial stressor, that they can't figure out
how to get their reimbursements, their travel vouchers? They
are not getting out of the military; we need to help them so
they can continue their service. Please?
Mr. Vazirani. Senator, I think the area that we can help
that reserve component member make that transition, and to your
point, they are not transitioning from the military; they are
transitioning from their active service to their--back to their
reserve unit, and to their--so one of the things that we will
continue to do, and we are doing this through the interagency
partnership, is how do we assess the needs of an individual
coming into the TAP program, and continuing to evolve the TAP
program.
And so an area here to support the reserve component, those
members, is an area that we recognize we should continue to
evolve, and we appreciate the support that you are providing on
that.
Senator Rosen. Thank you. We would love to see some
reporting on how you are doing that. Please, Mr. Secretary.
Mr. Rodriguez. Senator, that is a great question with
regards to the guard reservists because they have unique
requirements in their process of transitioning as well. One of
the things we have done is we executed an off-base transition
training pilot that began last year, and that is allowing us to
be at the local communities working with the guard reserves
that allow us to work through their individual needs when it
comes to preparing for transition, and/or when they are looking
for a job to maintain while they are actually performing guard
reserve work.
One of the things that we have seen so far at the TAP
sites, is that there is currently in 10 states, over 7,000
service members have been supported through the current pilots,
and we want to ensure that they also understand that if we are
able to in the future, utilize American Job Centers to support
guard reserve, that would be another requirement--or another
resource, I am sorry, that would allow those guard reserve
members to utilize at the state and local levels.
Senator Rosen. All right, thank you. I am going to let the
second panel. We really appreciate you.
And there you go, Chairman; both Chairmen.
Chairman Tester. Well you finally came along. You should
have come to the panel earlier, and we could have finished this
up a lot quicker, Senator Rosen.
I want to thank the first panel. Needless to say, thank you
for the work you do. And also needless to say, we have more
work to do. So thank you all for that. And you are dismissed,
and we will start on the second panel.
Chairman Tester. So I am going to welcome the witnesses to
the second panel, and I am going to apologize up-front;
obviously, this is a big issue by the presence of so many
members, which is a good thing. The bad thing is that I wish we
could spend more time with you, the second panel.
And on this second panel we have: Ryan Gallucci, Executive
Director of the VFW, Veterans of Foreign Wars.
We also have Tom Porter, Vice President of Government
Affairs for Blue Star Families.
We have Kevin O'Neil, who is the Employment and Education
Policy Associate for The American Legion.
And last but certainly not least, we have Dr. Arthur
DeGroat, somebody who has been in front of the VA Committee
before; he is Executive Director of the Office of Military and
Veterans Affairs at Kansas State University.
And as soon as you get seated and you are ready to go, I am
going to turn to Chairman Reed for a comment.
Chairman Reed. First of all, I welcome all of you, but I
want to particularly welcome Ryan Gallucci, who is a Rhode
Islander, and a graduate of the University of Rhode Island, and
thank you for your service in the military, and now at VFW. So
go Rhodi. Thank you.
Chairman Tester. And Mr. Gallucci, you have the floor, five
minutes.
PANEL II
----------
STATEMENT OF RYAN GALLUCCI, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, VETERANS OF
FOREIGN WARS OF THE UNITED STATES
Mr. Gallucci. Thank you, Chairman Tester, Chairman Reed,
Ranking Members Moran, Wicker, and Members of the Committees.
Thank you for the opportunity to provide VFW's remarks on this
vital topic.
Nearly 200,000 service members exit the force each year,
which makes regular joint oversight hearings like this
imperative for today's military. A solid transition can set up
veterans for success after service; conversely, a failed
transition could lead to devastating consequences like
unemployment, homelessness, even suicide. The perception of
veterans after service directly correlates to the next
generation's propensity to serve; failed transitions hurt
military recruiting, making this a national security priority.
The VFW is on the ground every day at more than 20 military
installations worldwide, working with nearly 20,000
transitioning service members, or approximately 10 percent of
the transitioning force every year. Accredited by VA, our
professional staff assists troops with Benefits Delivery at
Discharge or BDD claims, provide benefits' guidance, and even
provide VA benefits briefings when offered the opportunity.
Last year, VFW filed more than 12,000 claims for
transitioning service members, ensuring timely connections to
benefits like VA compensation and care. We speak today not only
as veterans who have gone through TAP, but as professionals who
work in TAP every day.
The VFW testified on TAP before the House earlier this
summer. At the time we were frustrated by a lack of engagement
from VA. Thankfully, our collaboration with VA has
substantially evolved. The VFW is the only organization that
participated in multiple TAP 6.0 pilots. We provided feedback
on the 5.1 curriculum and are now collaborating on ways to
ensure TAP participants have access to competent, accredited
representation where practical.
This is why the VFW highly recommends the passage of the
TAP Promotion Act. We know the immense value for all troops to
access accredited representatives. VA has committed to making
this a reality. By codifying this collaboration, we ensure that
more service members have access to critical information and
resources prior to separation.
Sadly, many are not offered the opportunity to even use
this program because they cannot attend TAP on time. Timely
attendance in TAP is critical. Recently, a member of Chairman
Tester's own staff contacted VFW to file a BDD claim. When the
VFW spoke to this staff member, we learned they had just one
day to spare before they were ineligible. In a stroke of luck
they had their records available, and the VFW was able to file
before the hours'-long window closed. Had they waited even one
day, they would have missed an opportunity to apply for
seamless care and benefits.
This problem disproportionately affects junior-enlisted and
junior officers, who comprise most of the separating force.
Veterans Experience Office data indicate that this is a real
problem, with most claimants reporting they file after the
uniform comes off because they miss the BDD window entirely.
The VFW clients indicate that this may be a command-level
problem demanding command-level solutions, such as evaluating
leaders on compliance.
Connections to community resources are also a force
multiplier that often means the difference between a
successful--excuse me--successful or unsuccessful transition.
The law was written to ensure community connections are made
for all separating service members. Unfortunately, DOD has
decided to make warm handoffs only for troops it determines
require the most help. The law is clear, though: these
connections are for everyone.
We cannot feasibly contort the TAP curriculum to meet the
unique needs of everyone leaving the military. This is where
countless organizations that offer community-based services
play a role. If troops are going to college, connect them to
Student Veterans of America chapters. If they want tech careers
in Texas, connect them to VetsinTech. If they want to work on
Wall Street, there is FourBlock. No one knows what challenges
they will actually face until the uniform finally comes off.
This is why reliable community connections are so important. If
no one knows these organizations exist, they will not be able
to help. We only prevent service members from slipping through
the cracks if DOD makes the connections as required by law.
Finally, the VFW knows that families often play a critical
role in facilitating successful transitions, while the service
member focuses on completing their service obligation. Spouse
attendance in TAP is notoriously low, but these classrooms full
of uniformed service members, on-base during the duty day, may
not be the most effective vehicle. The VFW is a strong
proponent of Labor's Off-Base Transition Training program,
which is why we recommend either integrating VA benefits into
OBTT, or testing an OBTT-like program around military
installations focused on families.
Look, we have come a long way since the VOW Act. Veterans'
unemployment is down; knowledge of benefits is up, innovations
that we heard about earlier, like SkillBridge, Solid Start,
Employment Navigator and Partnership Program are available. But
we still miss many of the transitioning service members who
need these services the most. The VFW believes we have a key
role to play in this, which is why we are grateful for the
dialogue with your Committees today.
Chairmen Tester and Reed, Ranking Members Moran and Wicker,
this concludes my testimony. And I am eager to answer any
questions you or the Committee members may have.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Gallucci appears on page 129
of the Appendix.]
Chairman Reed. There will be questions. Thank you, Ryan.
Mr. Porter, you have the floor.
STATEMENT OF TOM PORTER, VICE PRESIDENT OF GOVERNMENT AFFAIRS,
BLUE STAR FAMILIES
Mr. Porter. Thank you, Chairman Tester, Chairman Reed, for
having the hearing. Blue Star Families is the Nation's largest
grassroots military family support organization, and we are
really at the heart of the issue that we are talking about here
today, transitions, here today.
We are committed to connecting military and veteran
families with their neighbors and organizations to create
vibrant communities of mutual support. Our groundbreaking
research is raising the Nation's awareness of the unique
challenges of military family life, both during and after
service. Our innovative programs are solving specific
challenges for our families, such as fighting economic
insecurity with resources that foster spouse career
development, address food insecurity, building family strength
with family programming, and provide critical peer support for
caregivers.
With more than 275,000 members, including chapters and
communities all over the world, Blue Star Families touches more
than 1.5 million family members every year. By cultivating
innovative programs and partnerships, we seek to ensure that
our military and veteran families always feel connected,
supported, and empowered.
Blue Star Families has 13 chapters across the country,
which provide virtual and in-person support, and local presence
where various programs, events, and services are provided to
military and veteran families to help them feel more welcome
and engaged in the community.
This past year, Craig Newmark, founder of Craigslist,
committed $100 million to the support of veterans by
contributing to solutions for the most pressing challenges
facing veteran and military families, including mental health,
suicide prevention, housing and homelessness, and food
insecurity. As part of this generous contribution, he also made
a personal commitment to Blue Star Families to start 12 new
outposts to assist military and veteran families.
Our outposts will build upon our existing chapter
structure, allowing us to partner with local organizations to
bring events, programs, and resources to even more veteran and
military-connected communities worldwide.
Transitioning from uniform to civilian life is a critical
period for service members and their families, which is why it
is extremely important that TAP is a comprehensive, family-
centered, and outcome-based program that is delivered well in
advance to service members and their family members before
leaving service.
A 2022 GAO report said that over 90 percent of
transitioning service members participated in TAP, but that
nearly 25 percent of service members who needed maximum support
didn't attend the mandatory 2-day class. However, our 2021
survey told us that over half, 58 percent of veterans reported
they did not attend TAP or any government-sponsored transition
assistance programming. Furthermore, 41 percent of these
veterans reported they and their families disagreed that they
were well-prepared to successfully navigate the transition from
military to civilian life.
There are evaluation gaps in services, and service members,
and dependents' accessibility of the services. It is a positive
step that spouse employment has been incorporated into TAP;
however, child-friendly courses also are key to ensure
dependents' accessibility. Our perception is there are actually
few literal barriers to participation for military spouses.
Instead, it seems that there is a culture of nonattendance
among transitioning spouses that must be overcome. One of the
biggest challenges that spouses indicate they face in our
research, has to do with mental health challenges, and the
impact they have on integration into civilian society, marital
issues, and several others. It is our understanding that TAP
includes some classes about identifying PTSD, and other mental
health challenges, but not necessarily classes about how to
manage these challenges and their consequences. Specifically,
we believe that robust marital support programs will help these
military spouses.
So in addition to what we normally look at in terms of
transitioning with the TAP program, a lot of discussion here,
also important that we haven't had a lot of discussion about
here today, are some of the major programs that recently have
been passed, like the Honoring our PACT Act, the VA has done an
amazing job reaching out to the veteran and military and
veteran community to encourage them to enroll in their new
benefits.
So over 600,000 cases of benefits have been approved in the
last year, and it is an incredible amount. And those that get
the disability benefits at the time following their separation
that could be an enormous benefit and help during that critical
part of transition.
Also, the honoring--the John Scott Hannon Act that was
passed a couple of years ago; Blue Star Families is a recipient
of one of the Fox Grants that were a part of that bill that you
passed, Senator Tester. We appreciate that. We are in our
second year that we have received that grant, it is a
significant grant. We have done a lot of good. We have got some
solid feedback. What we are doing with that money is we are
training family members and friends on how to address veterans
in this critical time of need.
So great work on that, thank you very much, and appreciate
you having me here today.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Porter appears on page 141
of the Appendix.]
Chairman Tester. Thank you, Tom.
Mr. O'Neil, you have the floor.
STATEMENT OF KEVIN O'NEIL, EMPLOYMENT AND EDUCATION POLICY
ASSOCIATE, THE AMERICAN LEGION
Mr. O'Neil. Chairmen Tester and Reed, Ranking Member Moran,
on behalf of National Commander Daniel J. Seehafer, and our 1.6
million dues-paying members, The American Legion thanks you for
the opportunity to testify in Military to Civilian Transition.
My own transition journey began as I was driving down an
unpaved road in Djibouti, Africa, with two of my fellow Airmen.
We were on our way to start our overnight shift, and I proposed
the question: What do you plan to do when you separate? Neither
knew. The uncertainty in their responses propelled me to start
thinking about the path that I would take following my military
career. After many nights alone on deployment and a great deal
of time to think, I made the decision to go back to school.
Upon separating from the Air Force, I enrolled at a
community college, and from there I transitioned to a four-year
university where I earned my degree. I had finally achieved the
goal that I set for myself four years prior. I went on to earn
my graduate degree, and all of that has led me here today.
While I am incredibly proud of these accomplishments, I
recognized that I was fortunate enough to have found my path
well before my separation. This cannot be said for all service
members, and I believe that this is why we are here today. TAP
offers a plethora of information that service members can
utilize to achieve success post-military service, but there are
improvements that can be made. One improvement is seeing that
service members begin TAP no later than 365 days prior to their
anticipated separation.
According to a GAO Report released in December 2022, 70
percent of service members are not completing TAP within the
mandated time frame. With over 200,000 service members
separating annually, that equates to around 140,000
transitioning service members who may have less than a year to
plan for their future. This is far too many service members who
may find themselves unprepared for the transition to civilian
life.
In light of the information gathered in this study, The
American Legion would like to offer a couple of suggestions to
remedy this issue. First, we can look to the Veterans Affairs
Military Life Cycle modules, or MLC, as a best practice for
providing vital information regarding the transition process.
MLC modules comprise 14 comprehensive informational sessions
that allow transitioning service members and their families to
access the information provided through TAP at any time
throughout their military service. It is a great tool that can
be emulated by other federal agencies.
For instance, DOL offers a program titled the Employment
Navigator and Partnership Pilot. This program offers one-on-one
career assistance to transitioning service members and their
spouses at installations worldwide. It is an excellent
opportunity for service members and their spouses to better
prepare for civilian life by finding the right career.
If DOL were to create online modules similar to those
offered through the VA's MLC modules, service members and their
spouses would have greater access to information that will
prepare them for a successful career post-military service. In
addition to allowing for greater access to the many
opportunities available to transitioning service members and
their families, we would like to see an application created
that can be accessed at any time throughout one's military
career.
This app would comprise the modules offered through TAP, as
well as the programs offered by DOL, DOD, and other Executive
Branch agencies. Through interagency partnerships and the
creation of a comprehensive Military Life Cycle app, we can
ensure that service members and their families have unfettered
access to information that will assist in transitioning to
civilian life.
Not only do we want service members and their spouses to be
successful in their post-military endeavors, but we also want
them to serve knowing that there are options for them when it
comes time to separate or retire. This will allow service
members to be successful both in their military career and
post-military career, as it contributes to a sense of security
that comes only from having a plan.
Chairmen Tester and Reed, Ranking Member Moran, The
American Legion thanks you once again for allowing us to be
here. And I welcome any questions you may have.
[The prepared statement of Mr. O'Neil appears on page 150
of the Appendix.]
Chairman Tester. Thank you, Kevin, for your testimony.
Next, we have Dr. Arthur DeGroat.
STATEMENT OF ARTHUR DEGROAT, EDD, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF
MILITARY AND VETERANS AFFAIRS, KANSAS STATE UNIVERSITY
Dr. DeGroat. Chairmen, Tester and Reed, Ranking Members
Moran and Wicker, Members of these Committees; I, as a third-
generation Army Officer, am honored for this opportunity to
address you today with my insights on the challenges of Post-9/
11 era of veterans' transition. As a combat veteran, a human
science researcher, a professional practitioner of transition
assistance through higher education at Kansas University, and
working with nonprofit Veterans Service Organizations,
professional consulting, and my own personal coaching with over
120 veterans from the ranks of Specialist to four-star General,
I believe that I have a unique and relevant perspective on
contemporary veterans' transition.
This year marks my 39th year in public service to our
Nation's Military, in and out of uniform, and for the last 18
years, I have worked extensively with our veterans' transition
effort. So I am deeply thankful to participate with you at this
joint hearing today on a subject of my greatest personal
interest.
For opening remarks, I wish to share a brief statement of
my strategic perspective on our transition challenge. The
military separation system deployed at the inception of the
All-Volunteer Force in the 1970s was adequate for many
generations of military members departing their service.
Societal workforce and generational dynamics of previous
decades proved to offer more favorable conditions for effective
transition for our Cold War and Gulf War I veterans than we
face today. However, we see today that far too little research
work was conducted then and now on the practice of exit
transition.
Thankfully, for four decades, this gap of an empirical
basis needed to guide veteran separation went largely unnoticed
due to the presence of a large allied military defense sector
that absorbed up to 80 percent of transitioning veterans into
employment after their service.
As we entered the Post-9/11 era, where social, economic,
generational, martial, and workforce conditions had changed in
significant ways, we found our legacy separation systems ill-
suited to effectively assist our new generation of service
members and their families to re-enter civil life in the
workplace.
Responding to this reality, we performed a process
improvement approach to adapt our legacy separation system to a
transition assistance model. Some key changes impacting modern
transition include the changed nature of the workforce, a
change from a human resource development model to a talent
acquisition model, dramatic change to the very nature of work
in the workplace, the economic necessity for dual-working
spouse families, and the increased awareness of the impacts of
behavioral health care and human performance.
From my research and practice, I believe that the sum
totality of these societal and generational changes, compounded
by a lack of an evidence-based approach to modern transition,
were not adequately accounted for as we adapted our legacy
military separation system to meet Post-9/11 era transition
assistance needs. While many process improvements were made
reactively to our underperforming systems of today, I find some
of these changes have been ineffective when being applied to
our transition system, some of these being addressed today in
this hearing.
So today, we find our Post-9/11 era veterans having a
greater transition challenge than any previous generation and
having to serve as pioneers as the first generation of veterans
to face such a major cross-boundary career transition and doing
so while competing for entry with a highly skilled incumbent
civilian talent pool for careers in new industry sectors where
our veterans have little to no direct relevant experience in.
Adding complexity to this current reality, we are also asking
our young service members to forge their post-military futures
within a process started just 365 days before they exit.
This is both daunting and unrealistic, given what we know
empirically about adults making these types of life changes. My
deepest belief is that our current TAP program places too much
life decision-making upon our existing service members too
close to their departure, rendering a state of learned
helplessness where our service members perceived an actual
need, or lack preparation to transition questions if their
innate belief is they can do so successfully.
In my written testimony, I offered several recommendations
aimed to overcome systematic challenges in our current efforts,
including adapting from a one-stage simultaneous process to a
more natural evidence-based approach of a three-stage process
of transition that sequentially merges with our retention
efforts, that can prepare our service members and their
families for staying or leaving in a time frame where essential
resources and assets and planning can occur over time.
This would require an institutional culture where
transition is not viewed as a competitor to retention. Both are
simply a natural aspect of caring for service members over
their life course.
My written testimony also addresses the empirical realities
of service members' human capital and economic entry cost to
civilian life and work that needs to be addressed more
realistically than we are doing today. As well as commenting on
the phenomena that as a result of learned helplessness, many
transitioning service members place an over-reliance on VA
financial disability entitlements, becoming a disincentive to
do the hard work for self-sufficiency and independence.
In conclusion, I appreciate this opportunity to help our
military, VA, and others as we continue to work together to
improve this vital capability to care for our service members
and their families as they move successfully into civil society
as proud, independent, and successful veterans. I am also ready
to share some insights on health and well-being impacts upon
transition performance, as it was highlighted during the first
panel.
I look forward to your questions. Thank you very much.
[The prepared statement of Dr. DeGroat appears on page 162
of the Appendix.]
Chairman Tester. Dr. DeGroat, thank you for your testimony.
As I thank all of you for your testimony. I am just going to
say one comment about you, Dr. DeGroat, because these other
fellows are in front of the Committee much more often than you
are, but I really appreciate you thinking outside the box, and
you do that very, very well. And I appreciate that.
I want to ask to all of you, you guys heard the previous
panel; you heard the transition programs that are there, there
is a lot of things you could say, and you could eat up the next
hour each one of you, but if you were going to pick one thing,
one thing that the Department of Defense could do better and
that the VA could do better, what would it be?
And I will start with you, Mr. Gallucci.
Mr. Gallucci. Thank you, Chairman Tester. So one thing that
we believe VA can do better is the collaboration that we are
already working on, and that is the integration of accredited
representatives in the Transition Assistance Program, which is
also supported by the TAP Promotion Act. The reason this is so
important is that we know that the people who need this program
the most are not linked to it.
We also know that TAP can't be everything to everyone; it
is supposed to provide a baseline of information to separating
service members. That is where high-touch, vetted, accredited
programs and resources like the VFW, or VSO peers, or state
agencies play such a critical role.
Some of the urgency of this: are the predatory actors that
Mr. Jacobs spoke to in the first hearing. We call them ``claim
sharks''. I want to share two stories. The first is Joe
Ziegler, our accredited representative on Fort Wainwright in
Alaska; the service members he meets with regularly wonder why
they are getting solicitation emails and aggressive online ads
from these companies looking to sign predatory contracts.
The second is a gentleman who is sitting behind me from the
State of Tennessee, Preston Stewart, VFW member, who his peers,
within the military service, recommended one of these predatory
companies to help him with his benefits. So our recommendation
is to inject this into the Military Life Cycle module so that
leaders at all levels know what ``right'' looks like. There are
aggressive predatory actors out there, but there is lots of
free assistance, competent, highly trained assistants ready to
help.
Chairman Tester. Tom.
Mr. Porter. Thank you, Chairman. I think that we would
really like them to be able to look at the TAP program through
the lens of what the family members want. Maybe they are
looking at it from a top-down perspective. What does not only
the service member want and his or her transition to civilian
life, but what does the spouse want? What does the child want?
And then deliver on that in person. A lot of new possibilities
have developed opportunities with a virtual TAP, but they
really need to have the in-person, high-touch availability for
these opportunities.
And they need to be able to have these events when it is
not just during working hours; they could be outside of working
hours, because if a spouse has a job, if the service member is
busy during the day, then there is less excuse for them not to
be able to attend if it is outside of working hours. I can tell
you that as a recently retired service member, just trying to
get a hold of anybody to do anything on the military side
outside of working hours it is almost impossible. So they can
do better on that.
And then how better to acclimate to the civilian world than
working in public-private partnerships to tell people what it
is like on the outside and the skills that are necessary to
make that transition. And then, when you do all these things,
to be able to tell everybody about it. I would say look at what
the VA is doing with the PACT Act. If they can do a hundred
outreach events in a month's time and see the progress and the
results that they are getting in terms of people enrolling in
the VA at this point, then they can do this, DOD and VA can
both do this, in terms of talking to service members, their
spouses, their family members about the possibilities of their
training and their transitioning to new opportunities in the
civilian world.
Chairman Tester. Okay. And Kevin.
Mr. O'Neil. Thank you for the question. In reference to the
VA, I think that they can do a better job in advertising their
Military Life Cycle modules. I think this is a very important
resource. Currently, only 30,000 participants have utilized
this resource in the past year. I think this could be greatly
enhanced, and that comes with better advertisement and
communication.
Additionally, I don't think we need to see transition,
retention, and recruitment in conflict. The Marine Corps has
proven that these things can coincide and work effectively
together with their Marine for Life Program. The Marine Corps
currently has the best retention and recruitment of all
branches of the military.
Chairman Tester. Thank you for that. Dr. DeGroat.
Dr. DeGroat. I believe the DOD has the opportunity to make
the greatest improvement to our TAP program, and particularly,
to see the conflict between transition and retention. I think
we saw when we had wounded warriors, we recognized that we
weren't caring for them well during Iraq and Afghanistan. And
so what we did is create Warrior Transition Battalions and sort
of Recovery Units, and putting line units, and line leaders in
charge of their soldiers to help them get well.
And I think we need to expand the role of the activity
leadership, in units, to start the conversations earlier with
their service members, to make sure that they are talking about
the right things, and that their responsibility--they are
responsible for their soldiers, if they choose to stay and re-
enlist, or if they opt to transition back to civilian life.
Chairman Tester. Thank you, all. Senator Reed.
Chairman Reed. Well, in the spirit of our partnership, I
will yield to Senator Moran.
Chairman Tester. Okay. Senator Moran.
Senator Moran. Senator Reed, thank you.
First of all, let me compliment Mr. O'Neil. I appreciated
your story about how you have lived your life, and how you
thought about it, and the success that you have had since
service. And I thank you for your service, and I wish you well
in all the endeavors that now follow it. You captured me with
the kind of personal nature of what you have experienced.
And Mr. Porter, you mentioned Fox Grants, that captured my
attention, too. I think it is one of the significant components
of the John S. Hannon Act, and I rarely run into anyone, or any
community, or any organization that knows or is utilizing them.
And I am not absent to community leaders, and I am not absent
veterans. I am anxious to hear your story about that grant in
the two or three sentences that you can tell me, and maybe we
can follow up more.
Mr. Porter. Thank you, Senator. So we are in our second
year at Blue Star Families with the Fox Grant, $750,000 the
first year, and was recently approved for the next year. And so
what we do, we focused it on equipping family and friends on
the training and the skill sets that they need to be able to
talk to that veteran service member during that critical time,
to get the help that they need, and which is, as we all know,
it is a very sensitive time.
So it is an eight-week training. And our program, it is
called Upstream Solutions to Crisis, and that is within Blue
Star Families, and we have so far completed seven cohorts, a
total of 50 participants. So it is very in-depth training, and
we are very proud of that. And we are going to be looking
forward to doing more.
Senator Moran. Is this occurring across the country, with
Blue Star Families in a particular community taking the lead?
Or this is something that you do nationally?
Mr. Porter. It is across the country, nationally. It is.
And we hope to expand it.
Senator Moran. And does that mean utilizing technology to
deliver that conversation, those services?
Mr. Porter. Sure, and in-person.
Senator Moran. Right; and in person. Okay. Thank you.
Dr. DeGroat, welcome back. I was reminded by your presence
that the last time you were with us, Chairman Tester called
you: ``Hot, white, smart.'' And thanked you for improving his
image of Kansans by your presence today. In your testimony, you
say, and I quote, ``Societal and generational changes were not
adequately accounted for as we adopted our legacy military
separation system to meet current Post-9/11 era transition
demands.''
You mentioned this in your response to Senator Tester's
question. I wanted to give you, at least for my benefit, tell
me more. You have done a lot of research into Military Life
Cycle, and touchpoints in military careers leading up to
separation. What should we know to take from that sentence?
Dr. DeGroat. I think societally this is a different--let me
go back. We tend to see veterans as this monolithic archetype
from generation to generation, but there are significant
generational differences between each generation of veterans.
Yet, we continue to just mildly improve on some existing legacy
systems as we manage them in all different processes of talent
management. But I think we have to recognize that,
generationally, these are different people, the nature of their
war experience.
I went to war one time in 23 years for 7 months. Young
veterans in three years have gone back and forth to wars in two
different theaters or three different theaters in four years.
The iteration of how we utilize soldiers today has incredibly
increased psychological demands. This is the first generation
that went to war where they are present on the battlefield and
the home front because of the presence of social media and
communication technologies.
The cognitive, mental, and moral demands on the current
generation of our service members, they are still managing
their homes while they are managing their soldiers on the
battlefield, concurrently. So and then the nature of the
workforce, we had a--we had an economy and industries where
small unit leadership, which is the majority of our combat
soldiers, they have great experience in leading groups of
diverse young people to do very complicated, dualistic,
hazardous things. And historically, they made great lead
supervisors in manufacturing and industry.
But now we have knowledge workers, and knowledge economies.
And so I also believe strongly that one of our shortfalls, in
this generation, is the reliance on and looking at the MOS
skill--the Military Occupational Skill--most service members
take the ASVAB test, and it kind of boils down to all--from the
whole range of choices of what they can do in the military,
from what they were talented for and what they desire to do. It
says: You can be a cook, a truck driver, or a fuel handler.
So now as we start to transition, we are saying: Okay, let
us just credential you in that, and make you do one of those
three things in civilian life. So I think the reality is, as
our workforce today, where our service members may have been
snipers today, but they don't want to be snipers in the
civilian world, even if they could. They are looking for a bold
transition, a cross-boundary transition to a new industry and a
new life, where their soft skills, as veterans, are very
relevant, but their innate military talent is not directly
relevant.
So those are just a few examples where, generationally, the
workforce has changed, our soldiers and veterans have changed,
and we have to have a transition program that is relevant and
that places them within those realities. And my written
testimony cites about 13 other areas, specifically, where we
are missing the mark on being more relevant.
Senator Moran. Dr. DeGroat, thank you. Chairman Reed, thank
you for your leadership on the Committee, thank you for your
leadership in the Army Caucus with me, and thank you for
bringing our two Committees together for this important topic.
Chairman Reed. Thank you very much, Senator Moran, and
gentlemen, thank you for your testimony.
Mr. Gallucci, you mentioned these shakedown artists that
are going after people as they retire. Have you been in
contact, or any organizations, with the Consumer Financial
Protection Bureau? That organization has a dedicated section
for the military?
Mr. Gallucci. Yes, Senator. As a matter of fact, my
colleague who is with us today, Kristina Keenan, had
participated in a roundtable of CFPB on this last week. We are
in regular contact. We are also working--Kristina had worked
with state attorneys general to pen a letter in support of
reining in some of these companies.
Chairman Reed. Well, if you need any assistance, please
contact me in my office directly.
And Mr. Porter, I was talking about the transition with
respect to health care. You say, from a very interesting
perspective, the families. What is one or two things that we
could do better in terms of transitioning active-duty personnel
into a transition to civilian life, maintaining the best health
care they can?
Mr. Porter. I am sorry. Are you talking about VA health
care, or are you talking about transitioning?
Chairman Reed. I am just talking about transitioning.
Mr. Porter. Okay.
Chairman Reed. Because, you know, many families don't get
VA but they have some benefits, or they just need advice as to
how to sign up for the best program for their family, both
value and cost.
Mr. Porter. Right. As I was mentioning before, it is really
important to look at this through the lens of not only the
service member, but the spouse and the child. What are their
needs? What are their school needs? What are their employment
needs, their health care needs, their community needs? And to
be able to fold in other outside partners, so public-private
partnerships can be part of that. That could be able to give
job training, transitioning advice into the civilian career
world. So those are important things.
But the main thing is to look at this from the perspective
of not just the top-down from what the commander thinks on the
base, but what does the service member, spouse, and children
need?
Chairman Reed. Well, thank you. And you, Mr. O'Neil, do you
have any ideas in terms of this issue of medical transition;
because I think it is important?
Mr. O'Neil. Thank you for the question, sir. I do believe
that, as I stated, regarding the Military Life Cycle modules,
that resources can be better advertised and better
communicated, and this should start day one in the service from
your first duty station when you first process. You should be
aware of these opportunities. But having access to virtual
online modules creates a sense of anonymity that I think is
important to service members because, unfortunately, there is a
stigma associated with mental health issues.
Chairman Reed. Thank you. And Dr. DeGroat, I think you have
raised a fundamentally important topic, that is, there is a
real desire within the military to retain personnel. And when
you set up a system that sets up exit routes that are pretty
clear now, that seems to have a tension with retention. You
have raised this issue. Any advice in terms of how do we blend
those two together?
Dr. DeGroat. I think it is a perceived tension because
soldiers, everyone, every soldier leaves either by the end of
their service tour, or the end of a career, or by sacrifice in
combat, or result, or just by separation. So the fact that
every soldier leaves, and it means that that transition is just
another part of--it is the same thing as retention. It is the
other side of retention.
I think when you show the soldier early on all of the
challenges of leaving, and all of the assets and opportunities
of staying for a while longer, I think they make a more
informed choice. I don't think the truth of the value of
military service is a disincentive to stay. They joined for the
right reasons. And so I really don't think in practice, it is
really a competitive thing, one or the other. I think actually
it is the same thing. Given more opportunity to think about it
early on, you are actually coaching the person. You have made a
great choice, you can stay here if you want, you and your
family, or you can transition. And if you transition, here is,
to do what you want to do, these are the things you need to do
between now and then.
If you are ready for that, if you have saved money to start
your own business, if you have got enough savings, and a plan,
and enough credentials to get the kind of compensation in your
career, your future career that you need to support your family
independently; health care, child care, then you are ready to
go. But if you are not ready to go, then you continue to stay
in the service, serve honorably and usefully, and build those
assets and resources needed while you are in your uniform and
prepare yourself for that eventual transition.
Chairman Reed. So the premise is that an individual has to
be informed about the benefits of continued service, the
values, and all the external, as well as the cost of all those
things. And then, at the same time, they have to be made aware
of what is available outside so they can make a better
judgment. And do you feel we are--very quickly, do you feel we
are doing that now?
Dr. DeGroat. We are not doing that, but I think we can do
that.
Chairman Reed. Okay.
Dr. DeGroat. I think it is just a culture change, and we
have to really look at that and make sure commanders realize
that is the right thing to do. It is not change--it is not
going to drive--it may improve retention or delay transition
until the service member is more prepared, and their families
are more prepared. But not having that conversation until the
last year, and currently models, it looks like transition is
when retention fails.
Chairman Reed. One other quick question, which is basically
a lot of personnel will make that decision, you know, they are
going to reenlist, I am going to reenlist, and then two months
before their--expiration of their service, they suddenly throw
up their hands: No, I am getting out. And those are counted in
statistics as: Well, you didn't have the full year. I think we
have to do something about that. I think they have to refine
who falls into the category.
Dr. DeGroat. Yes, sir. My written testimony shows that
transition in other industries is usually a three-stage
process. It starts with confronting the reality of eventually
leaving. Then there is a stage of disengagement, which is
pretty much what our TAP program is now. And then there is a
period of resocialization that science says could be up to
three-and-a-half to seven years. So what we are doing is
essentially compressing all three of those natural adult
transition stages into one, 365, and as many testimony, was
made, we are asking life-changing--young people to make life-
changing decisions that will affect the course of their life,
too late, and not enough time to think through and build the
assets needed to go to the next stage.
Chairman Reed. Thank you.
Dr. DeGroat. So I think, simply, that the opportunity is
just to use the existing military infrastructure that we used
in retention counseling with unit line leaders who know those
soldiers and families the best, use them to start having the
transition conversations with not being fearful that that is
going to encourage them out.
In fact, those conversations of showing the alternatives
and the options, which would suggest, you are probably not
ready after four years to take yourself and your three
children, as a junior enlisted person, with very little direct
transferable workplace skills. You ought to stay in a little
longer, become a non-commissioned officer, get some leadership
skills, get some more courses while you are here. Maybe it is
time for your spouse to get ready before you get out, because
then you will be a dual-working family.
Chairman Reed. Thank you very much. I want to thank all the
witnesses. Do you have another comment?
Senator Moran. If I could ask a question if you would let
me?
Chairman Reed. I will let you ask a question, but it has to
be succinct, and the answer has to be even more succinct.
Senator Moran. Dr. DeGroat, please don't get me in trouble
with--it won't be my fault; it will be your fault if I am in
trouble with Chairman Reed.
You said something, and I was writing it as quickly as I
could, and it had something to do with VA benefits. You said at
the end of your testimony, and what I wrote was: That it has a
consequence in creating less motivation to pursue other
options. Would you tell me what you were conveying?
Dr. DeGroat. I will make this very concise. I believe the
frustrations that young people have when they are separating
with the transition program is that they then start over-
relying on seeking higher levels of disability as a financial
cushion and that becomes a disincentive, where they are
spending all their efforts in transition on working the
disability claim and ratings, at the expense of working on
independence and reliance for transitioning.
Senator Moran. Is there any suggestion in that answer that
the VA needs to emphasize more educational benefits, workforce,
workforce training benefits? Or is this just that people have
this expectation of monetary benefits upon their departure?
Dr. DeGroat. I think if the DOD transition program--in the
DOD if the transition program is more effective, as we talked
about today with some of these changes, then that problem will
solve itself. But I think the lack of--the perceived lack of
transitioning well through the DOD TAP program is causing an
over-reliance and an overburden on the VA for disability to be
the sole source of their plan for transition.
Senator Moran. Thank you.
Chairman Reed. The last word has to be given by two Rhode
Islanders. So Mr. Gallucci, please go.
Mr. Gallucci. Well, thank you, Chairman Reed. I wanted just
to take a second to respond to Ranking Member Moran's comments,
and Dr. DeGroat's comments as well. I fundamentally disagree
that that is what is happening. Unfortunately, this is the
system that is set up. What we see is that these benefits are
often an enabler to economic readjustment and the like. I sit
before you as a product of many VA programs. I am service-
connected; I utilize VA health care; I use the GI Bill; I use
the VA home loan.
Now, I believe that these have allowed me and people like
me to thrive after military service against other factors. What
I will also say is that one of the things that is missing in
the TAP curriculum is that the primary mechanism for
eligibility for VA care, is that service-connected
disabilities. There is other policy nuances here where
insurance companies don't have to cover conditions that result
from military service, and that is supposed to be covered by
the VA.
If I were injured on my job with the VFW, I would be
eligible for workers' compensation. I am not eligible for that
in the military. There is a reason that these benefits exist. I
invite the dialogue with Dr. DeGroat and with the Committee,
but I don't want to understate the significance of separating
service members applying for these earned benefits.
Chairman Reed. Well, thank you, gentlemen. I want to thank
you for your testimony, and also for your service to the
Nation, your continued service to the Nation. I appreciate it
deeply.
We will keep the record open for a week. And the hearing is
adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 1:09 p.m., the hearing was adjourned.]
A P P E N D I X
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