    [Senate Hearing 118-228]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]

                                                            S. Hrg. 118-228

        COMMITTEES ON VETERANS' AFFAIRS AND ARMED SERVICES: MILITARY TO
              CIVILIAN TRANSITION: ENSURING SUCCESS AFTER SERVICE

    =======================================================================

                                 JOINT HEARING

                                   BEFORE THE

                         COMMITTEE ON VETERANS' AFFAIRS

                                    AND THE

                          COMMITTEE ON ARMED SERVICES

                              UNITED STATES SENATE

                        ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                                 FIRST SESSION

                                   __________

                                OCTOBER 18, 2023

                                   __________

           Printed for the use of the Committee on Veterans' Affairs

    [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

            Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov

                                    __________

                       U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
    54-761 PDF                  WASHINGTON : 2025

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                     SENATE COMMITTEE ON VETERANS' AFFAIRS

                         Jon Tester, Montana, Chairman

    Patty Murray, Washington             Jerry Moran, Kansas, Ranking
    Bernard Sanders, Vermont                 Member
    Sherrod Brown, Ohio                  John Boozman, Arkansas
    Richard Blumenthal, Connecticut      Bill Cassidy, Louisiana
    Mazie K. Hirono, Hawaii              Mike Rounds, South Dakota
    Joe Manchin III, West Virginia       Thom Tillis, North Carolina
    Kyrsten Sinema, Arizona              Dan Sullivan, Alaska
    Margaret Wood Hassan, New Hampshire  Marsha Blackburn, Tennessee
    Angus S. King, Jr., Maine            Kevin Cramer, North Dakota
                                         Tommy Tuberville, Alabama

                          Tony McClain, Staff Director
                   David Shearman, Republican Staff Director

                                  ----------

                       SENATE COMMITTEE ON ARMED SERVICES

                       Jack Reed, Rhode Island, Chairman

    Jeanne Shaheen, New Hampshire        Roger F. Wicker, Mississippi,
    Kirsten E. Gillibrand, New York          Ranking Member
    Richard Blumenthal, Connecticut      Deb Fischer, Nebraska
    Mazie K. Hirono, Hawaii              Tom Cotton, Arkansas
    Tim Kaine, Virginia                  Mike Rounds, South Dakota
    Angus S. King, Jr., Maine            Joni Ernst, Iowa
    Elizabeth Warren, Massachusetts      Dan Sullivan, Alaska
    Gary C. Peters, Michigan             Kevin Cramer, North Dakota
    Joe Manchin III, West Virginia       Rick Scott, Florida
    Tammy Duckworth, Illinois            Tommy Tuberville, Alabama
    Jacky Rosen, Nevada                  Markwayne Mullin, Oklahoma
    Mark Kelly, Arizona                  Ted Budd, North Carolina
                                         Eric Schmitt, Missouri

                       Elizabeth L. King, Staff Director
                    John P. Keast, Republican Staff Director

                               C O N T E N T S

                                  ----------

                                October 18, 2023

                                    SENATORS

                                                                       Page
    Hon. Jon Tester, Chairman, U.S. Senator from Montana.............     1
    Hon. Jack Reed, Chairman, U.S. Senator from Rhode Island.........     2
    Hon. Jerry Moran, Ranking Member, U.S. Senator from Kansas.......     4
    Hon. Roger F. Wicker, Ranking Member, U.S. Senator from
      Mississippi....................................................     5
    Hon. Deb Fischer, U.S. Senator from Nebraska.....................    17
    Hon. Margaret Wood Hassan, U.S. Senator from New Hampshire.......    18
    Hon. Rick Scott, U.S. Senator from Florida.......................    20
    Hon. Jeanne Shaheen, U.S. Senator from New Hampshire.............    21
    Hon. Eric Schmitt, U.S. Senator from Missouri....................    23
    Hon. Patty Murray, U.S. Senator from Washington..................    25
    Hon. Tom Cotton, U.S. Senator from Arkansas......................    27
    Hon. Gary C. Peters, U.S. Senator from Michigan..................    29
    Hon. Joni Ernst, U.S. Senator from Iowa..........................    30
    Hon. Kyrsten Sinema, U.S. Senator from Arizona...................    32
    Hon. Mark Kelly, U.S. Senator from Arizona.......................    34
    Hon. Dan Sullivan, U.S. Senator from Alaska......................    35
    Hon. Richard Blumenthal, U.S. Senator from Connecticut...........    38
    Hon. Thom Tillis, U.S. Senator from North Carolina...............    39
    Hon. Mazie K. Hirono, U.S. Senator from Hawaii...................    40
    Hon. Marsha Blackburn, U.S. Senator from Tennessee...............    42
    Hon. Angus S. King, Jr., U.S. Senator from Maine.................    44
    Hon. Ted Budd, U.S. Senator from North Carolina..................    46
    Hon. Jacky Rosen, U.S. Senator from Nevada.......................    47

                                   WITNESSES
                                    Panel I

    Hon. Ashish S. Vazirani, Acting Under Secretary of Defense for
      Personnel and Readiness, Department of Defense.................     6
    Hon. Joshua D. Jacobs, Under Secretary for Benefits, Department
      of Veterans Affairs............................................     8

      accompanied by

      John W. Boerstler, Chief Veterans Experience Officer

    Hon. James D. Rodriguez, Assistant Secretary of Labor for
      Veterans' Employment and Training Service, Department of Labor.    10
    John D. Sawyer, Director, Education, Workforce, and Income
      Security, Government Accountability Office.....................    12

                                    Panel II

    Ryan Gallucci, Executive Director, Veterans of Foreign Wars of
      the United States..............................................    49
    Tom Porter, Vice President of Government Affairs, Blue Star
      Families.......................................................    51
    Kevin O'Neil, Employment and Education Policy Associate, The
      American Legion................................................    53
    Arthur DeGroat, EdD, Executive Director of Military and Veterans
      Affairs, Kansas State University...............................    54

                                    APPENDIX
                              Prepared Statements

    Hon. Ashish S. Vazirani, Acting Under Secretary of Defense for
      Personnel and Readiness, Department of Defense.................    69
    Hon. Joshua D. Jacobs, Under Secretary for Benefits, Department
      of Veterans Affairs............................................    87
    Hon. James D. Rodriguez, Assistant Secretary of Labor for
      Veterans' Employment and Training Service, Department of Labor.   101
    John D. Sawyer, Director, Education, Workforce, and Income
      Security, Government Accountability Office.....................   111

      Attachment--``Government Accountability Office (GAO)
        Highlights''.................................................   128

    Ryan Gallucci, Executive Director, Veterans of Foreign Wars of
      the United States..............................................   129
    Tom Porter, Vice President of Government Affairs, Blue Star
      Families.......................................................   141
    Kevin O'Neil, Employment and Education Policy Associate, The
      American Legion................................................   150
    Arthur DeGroat, EdD, Executive Director of Military and Veterans
      Affairs, Kansas State University...............................   162

                            Questions for the Record

    Department of Defense responses to questions submitted by:

      Hon. Jon Tester................................................   183
      Hon. Sherrod Brown.............................................   184
      Hon. Mazie K. Hirono...........................................   185
      Hon. Angus S. King, Jr.........................................   187
      Hon. John Boozman..............................................   189
      Hon. Marsha Blackburn..........................................   190
      Hon. Tommy Tuberville..........................................   191
      Hon. Jack Reed.................................................   192
      Hon. Tim Kaine.................................................   193
      Hon. Jacky Rosen...............................................   195
      Hon. Roger Wicker..............................................   196
      Hon. Joni Ernst................................................   199
      Hon. Dan Sullivan..............................................   200
      Hon. Ted Budd..................................................   201

    Department of Veterans Affairs responses to questions submitted
      by:

      Hon. Mazie K. Hirono...........................................   205
      Hon. Jon Tester................................................   209
      Hon. Marsha Blackburn..........................................   212
      Hon. John Boozman..............................................   217
      Hon. Sherrod Brown.............................................   219
      Hon. Jack Reed.................................................   222
      Hon. Tim Kaine.................................................   223
      Hon. Jacky Rosen...............................................   224
      Hon. Mark Kelly................................................   227
      Hon. Roger Wicker..............................................   231
      Hon. Joni Ernst................................................   232
      Hon. Dan Sullivan..............................................   234
      Hon. Ted Budd..................................................   235

    Department of Labor responses to questions submitted by:

      Hon. Roger Wicker..............................................   238
      Hon. Dan Sullivan..............................................   238
      Hon. Ted Budd..................................................   239

    Government Accountability Office responses to questions submitted
      by:

      Hon. Mazie K. Hirono...........................................   241
      Hon. Roger Wicker..............................................   242

    Military and Veterans Affairs, Kansas State University responses
      to
      questions submitted by:

      Hon. Mazie K. Hirono...........................................   243

                           Statements for the Record

    50strong, Kandi Tillman, Managing Co-Founder.....................   247

    Hire Heroes USA, Andrew Sandoe, Chief Executive Officer..........   256

    Military Officers Association of America (MOAA)..................   261

    National Guard Association of the United States..................   274

    Student Veterans of America (SVA)................................   279

    Western Governors' Association, Jack Waldorf, Executive Director.   288

        COMMITTEES ON VETERANS' AFFAIRS AND ARMED SERVICES: MILITARY TO
              CIVILIAN TRANSITION: ENSURING SUCCESS AFTER SERVICE

                                  ----------

                          WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 18, 2023

                                   U.S. Senate,
                        Committee on Veterans' Affairs,
                               and Committee on Armed Services,
                                                        Washington, DC.

        The Committees met, pursuant to notice, at 9:59 a.m., in
    Room SD-G50, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Jon Tester,
    and Hon. Jack Reed, Joint Chairs of the Committees, presiding.

        Present from Committee on Veterans' Affairs:

        Senators Tester, Murray, Brown, Blumenthal, Hirono, Sinema,
    Hassan, King, Moran, Boozman, Tillis, Sullivan, Blackburn,
    Cramer, and Tuberville.

        Present from Committee on Armed Services:

        Senators Reed, Shaheen, Gillibrand, Blumenthal, Hirono,
    Kaine, King, Peters, Rosen, Kelly, Wicker, Fischer, Cotton,
    Ernst, Sullivan, Cramer, Scott, Tuberville, Budd, and Schmitt.

                 OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. JON TESTER,
                  CHAIRMAN, U.S. SENATOR FROM MONTANA

        Chairman Tester. I want to call this hearing to order.
        Good morning. This is a rare occurrence where we have a
    joint hearing with Senate Committee on Veterans' Affairs and
    the Senate Armed Services Committee.
        I want to give special thanks to Chairman Reed, Ranking
    Members Moran and Wicker, for making this hearing happen. This
    is a critically important topic. It is a topic that we have
    been talking about since I came to this body, and that has been
    a number of years back. And it is about the yearly transition
    of 200,000 service members from being a warrior to a civilian,
    and the tools that we provide these men and women during that
    process that will impact everything from financial, to medical,
    to emotional well-being.
        Today, I want to hear how the DOD, the VA, and the DOL are
    working together to ensure that this impact is a positive one.
    In partnership through agencies, we have made some strides to
    improve the transition process, but we are far from where we
    need to be. In partnership, they are important. I want to make
    sure during this hearing that you guys are talking to one
    another, and that we understand what is going on with the folks
    who are retiring out of the military.
        Look, we have got enhanced GI Bill benefits, programs like
    SkillBridge. We have got DOD and state governments that are
    working to streamline requirements to get service members
    everything, from commercial drivers' licenses, to a number of
    other opportunities that are in the private sector that they
    have learned those skills in the military. There is still too
    much red tape out there, and we need to work to undo that.
        We have enacted the PACT Act, which has been a huge
    success, a large expansion of VA health care, and benefits in a
    decade, and I might add, necessarily so. We have improved
    veterans' access to mental health through the Hannon Act and
    the STRONG Act, but recent data shows that we are not where we
    need to be when it comes to veterans' mental health. We need to
    get more of these veterans into the system so they don't fall
    through the cracks, and that transition process is an
    opportunity to happen.
        And in fact, we have got some people on this roster today
    that have some ideas on how to make that transition from DOD to
    the VA system, smoother. I am looking for our first panel to
    provide a government perspective on what is working and what is
    not. I am looking for our second panel, composed of veterans
    and advocates, to provide their personal perspectives on what
    is working, and what is not. They will also advocate for
    various policies to make sure we are doing right by our service
    members.
        I want to read you some statistics before I turn it over to
    my fellow Chairman, Jack Reed. These are DOD data on enlisted
    deaths: 89 percent of active-duty deaths by suicide were among
    enlisted service members, enlisted service members; across the
    active and reserve component, those who died by suicide were
    primarily enlisted males under the age of 30. These are data
    points we need to take into consideration.
        If this population is struggling with their mental health
    while in the service, those struggles are likely to continue
    and get worse as they make the transition to civilian life. And
    that is why this hearing today is so important.
        With that, I turn it over to Senator Reed.

                  OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. JACK REED,
                CHAIRMAN, U.S. SENATOR FROM RHODE ISLAND

        Chairman Reed. Thank you very much, Chairman Tester. It is
    a privilege to share the dais with you this morning. I am glad
    we have brought our Committees together to discuss such a very
    important issue. I would like to welcome and thank our
    witnesses for joining us today.
        Our military's greatest asset is the people, the men and
    women who serve. Our men and women in uniform have long
    provided America with the strongest national defense in the
    world, and the leaders in this room have a fundamental duty to
    ensure that they are set up for success, both in and out of the
    service. The military is a challenging profession, and we know
    that our service members have sacrificed much for the Nation.
    We also know that the overwhelming majority of veterans report
    positive experiences in the military.
        Through surveys and data, we know that American veterans
    are more civically engaged, earn more money, and have more
    education than those who have not served. Veteran unemployment
    is lower than non-veteran unemployment across the country, and
    across nearly every demographic. Their economic outlook and
    quality of life is, on average, higher than non-veteran
    Americans.
        In short, the military service is a social good. It
    benefits the Nation, and it benefits those who serve.
    Transitioning from military service to civilian life can be
    challenging, however, the Department of Defense, and in
    conjunction with the Department of Veterans Affairs, and the
    Department of Labor, prepare service members and their families
    for this transition, primarily through a structured training
    program known as the Transition Assistance Program, or TAP.
        TAP provides information, resources, and tools to service
    members and their families to help prepare for the move from
    military life to civilian life. Service members are required to
    begin TAP a year before separating from military service; and
    those who are retiring can begin TAP up to two years in advance
    of their anticipated retirement date. I have been encouraged by
    the overall success of TAP, but there are opportunities for
    improvement that we will discuss today.
        In particular, recent Government Accountability Office
    reports have highlighted the challenge in getting full
    participation in the program among service members. Although 90
    percent of transitioning service members do eventually
    participate in TAP, up to 70 percent did not enroll in TAP a
    year in advance of their separation as required by law. I
    understand the Department of Defense is working to implement
    the GAO's recommendations and would ask our witnesses for an
    update on those efforts.
        A number of professional transition programs have shown
    great promise. For example, the SkillBridge Internship Program
    allows service members in the final months of their military
    career to work full-time in a private employer to gain
    experience and knowledge about the civilian workforce.
        Similarly, the United States Military Apprenticeship
    Program provides active-duty military members with professional
    skills training and the opportunity to earn nationally
    recognized certificates while finishing their military careers.
    I would like to know what lessons can be drawn from these
    programs and applied to other efforts.
        Finally, the transition from the military medical system,
    TRICARE, to the VA Health Care System can be daunting and
    confusing. Although VA eligibility and implementation should be
    smooth, many service members experience delays in determining
    their disability ratings, which can cause uncertainty and
    financial stress. Swift implementation of health care programs
    will be key to improving the transition of members from active
    service to civilian life. And I would ask our witnesses to
    share their views on how the transition can be streamlined.
        Thank you again to our witnesses, and I look forward to
    your testimonies.
        Now, on behalf of Chairman Tester, I would like to
    recognize Ranking Member Moran.

                 OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. JERRY MORAN,
                RANKING MEMBER, U.S. SENATOR FROM KANSAS

        Senator Moran. Senator Reed, or Chairman Reed, thank you
    very much. Thank you to you, and our Chairman, and Veterans,
    and Senator Wicker for joining us. And thank you for our
    witnesses for being here.
        Our committee in the Department of Defense, Veterans
    Affairs, and Labor should prioritize a seamless transition and
    provide resources to reduce unemployment, homelessness, and
    suicide, all issues our committee deals with on an ongoing
    basis, and it seems like they all come together at this moment
    when we talk about transition. But we can address unemployment,
    homelessness, and suicide, as well as bolster military
    recruitment and support success after the military, if we can
    improve the transition from active duty to prior service.
        Success after service will look different for every service
    member. That is why we must make certain that veterans are
    equipped with the knowledge and resources they need to thrive,
    that knowledge and resource needs to come earlier than the day
    in which they leave active service.
        I also want to address the friction, and I would like to
    see you all address the friction that exists in the transition
    process between military retention and readiness, something
    hugely important to our military, but to our Nation and its
    national security. We need to allow service members to attend
    pre-separation counseling, TAP classes, apprenticeships, and
    internships before separation.
        FY 2019 NDAA, Congress reformed TAP, put additional
    requirements on the Departments to individualize the transition
    process for those who are at higher risk for unemployment or
    post-transition issues. Additionally, Congress required that
    each service member go through TAP at least once, more than 365
    days prior to separation. A mandate that we know is not being
    followed for at least 70 percent of transitioning service
    members, according to the Government Accountability Office.
        Since those reforms were made in 2018, GAO has issued 12
    reports on transition. Those reports include nearly 40
    recommendations to VA and DOD. It is my understanding that very
    few of those recommendations have been agreed to or
    implemented, and DOD has not implemented a single one.
        Given these facts, I worry that there is a lack of
    understanding from commanders about the importance of
    prioritizing a positive transition and allowing service members
    time to prepare for the next phases, and their families' phase
    in their lives. I understand the importance of operational
    readiness; however, if a service member has a positive
    transition experience and receives support from their command
    and peers as they leave the military, they are more likely to
    have a positive view of their military experience, a successful
    transition, and assist with the recruitment by encouraging
    others to join the military.
        I am grateful to each one of our witnesses for being here
    today. In the second panel, we will be joined by a Kansan, who
    I want to express my gratitude for his presence here; Dr.
    Arthur DeGroat, Lieutenant Colonel, retired, he is from the
    Kansas State University Military Affairs and Innovation Center,
    and he has become a significant component of witness--of our
    witness panels as we deal with transition.
        So Dr. DeGroat, thank you for joining us. And I assume I
    should--I have to return this to Senator Reed.
        Chairman Reed. Thank you, Senator Moran.
        On behalf of Chairman Tester, let me recognize the Ranking
    Member of the Armed Services Committee, Senator Wicker.

               OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. ROGER F. WICKER,
             RANKING MEMBER, U.S. SENATOR FROM MISSISSIPPI

        Senator Wicker. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I am glad to
    be here today, joining with three of my distinguished
    colleagues. I am particularly proud that I share the leadership
    role on the Armed Services Committee with a fellow veteran,
    Senator Jack Reed. His career in the military is far more
    distinguished than mine, but I am proud to be a veteran, proud
    to have served, and proud to be here with three very
    distinguished supporters of our military and our veteran
    community.
        There are improvements that need to be made in our veteran
    experience, and in our transition experience, but the truth is
    that the vast majority of our veterans are highly successful in
    their post-military careers and personal lives. And I do
    appreciate Chairman Reed making that point, and making the very
    positive point about military service during the active-duty
    time and as a veteran.
        As our economy struggles with inflation and rising interest
    rates, the reporting from the U.S. Census Bureau shows that
    veterans and their families have consistently achieved higher
    standards of living than non-veterans. This is over the past 40
    years. The veteran unemployment rate is lower than the non-
    veteran employment rate. Both can be improved, but that is a
    significant statistic. This has been true nearly every month
    since January 2003 when the Bureau of Labor Statistics began
    tracking this information; this impressive fact is no surprise
    to those of us who understand how valuable veterans are to
    civilian employers.
        Between 2005 and 2015, a recent study from the University
    of Akron found that military veterans earned higher average
    wages than non-veterans. These facts demonstrate what those of
    us in the military community have known for years. Most
    veterans are doing well. The skills and character we developed
    during our time in service lead to desirable outcomes. Our
    witnesses should be congratulated for the superb work that they
    and their Departments have been doing in this area over the
    past decades.
        The success of our veterans shows that joining the military
    is a great way to improve career and life prospects. This is
    true regardless of sex, race, or national origin. As I have
    said and echoing others, the United States Military is the
    greatest civil rights program in the history of the world. The
    success of veterans from minority communities proves this.
    Researchers studied households headed by racial or ethnic
    minorities with low education experience. In that study,
    researchers found that households headed by veterans had
    significantly higher standards of living than those headed by
    non-veterans.
        And in 2017, the median annual incomes of Black and
    Hispanic veteran households were more than $20,000 higher than
    those of minority non-veteran households. So as you can see, I
    am not only proud to be a veteran, I value military service and
    encourage many young Americans to follow this type of service.
        We have also learned that effective pre-separation
    transition programs are helping to prepare service members for
    life after their military careers. The programs set these
    veterans up for civilian life, and their communities notice
    their success. In particular, young Americans see that military
    service can have very positive effects. This helps recruiting
    efforts. In this way, these transition programs act as a force
    multiplier.
        The Transition Assistance Program has been operating for
    just over 30 years, but it has a lot to show from that
    relatively brief tenure. Today, it supports around 200,000
    service members every year. Congress has capitalized on that
    momentum. We have identified the success of these transition
    programs and expanded these opportunities. The FY 2019 National
    Defense Authorization Act required broad reforms to make the
    Transition Assistance Program even stronger.
        Today, we will find out if we can improve on that. Congress
    must keep faith with our veterans through these initiatives,
    which I will continue to support. I look forward to hearing
    from our witnesses today about their efforts to execute these
    transition programs.
        Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
        Chairman Reed. Thank you, Senator Wicker, for your
    statement and for your service. Thank you very much.
        Now, let me welcome the first panel. From the Department of
    Defense, we have the Honorable Ashish Vazirani, Acting Under
    Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness.
        From the Department of Veterans Affairs we have the
    Honorable Joshua D. Jacobs, Under Secretary for Benefits;
    accompanied by Mr. John W. Boerstler, Chief Veterans Experience
    Officer.
        From the Department of Labor, we have the Honorable James
    D. Rodriguez, Assistant Secretary of Labor for Veterans'
    Employment and Training.
        And from the Government Accountability Office, we have Mr.
    John Sawyer, Director of Education, Workforce, and Income
    Security.
        Mr. Vazirani, please begin with your opening statement.

                                PANEL I

                                  ----------

    STATEMENT OF HON. ASHISH S. VAZIRANI, ACTING UNDER SECRETARY OF
       DEFENSE FOR PERSONNEL AND READINESS, DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE

        Mr. Vazirani. Chairman Tester, Chairman Reed, Ranking
    Member Moran, Ranking Member Wicker, and distinguished Members
    of the Committee.
        Chairman Reed. If you could pull the microphone as close as
    possible, sir.
        Mr. Vazirani. I appreciate the opportunity to address this
    joint hearing today, not just as the Acting Under Secretary of
    Defense for Personnel and Readiness, but as an advocate for and
    a champion of service members and their families at all stages
    of their service, inclusive of transition. I am honored to be
    in the company of my colleagues from the Department of Veterans
    Affairs and Labor, both of whom are integral partners in our
    collaborative and coordinated mission to facilitate the
    transition from military to civilian life, as well as a
    representative from the GAO, which provides thoughtful
    evaluations.
        A service member's transition begins on day one of service,
    and it is our duty to ensure a successful service member is a
    successful veteran. Members of the military and their families
    repeatedly prove their dedication, courage, and selflessness in
    protecting our Nation. In return, our value proposition is to
    provide them with the support, services, and resources they
    need to thrive beyond the battlefield.
        President Biden said, ``The only truly sacred obligation we
    have is to prepare and equip those women and men we send into
    harm's way and care for them and their families when they
    return home.''
        Service members are better prepared for their transition to
    civilian life today than at any other point. This reflects
    Secretary Austin's steadfast commitment to take care of our
    people. This commitment extends beyond their separation from
    duty in either the active or reserve component. DOD is one of
    the seven agencies that each plays a crucial role in the
    governance of military to civilian transition.
        Our investments in our service members' training and
    education, financial readiness, and health and well-being,
    coupled with the whole-of-government efforts to support their
    transition, are proving effective. Veterans using the Post-9/11
    GI Bill are more likely to graduate and have a higher GPA.
    Veterans are 20 percent more likely to be homeowners. Veterans
    earn more than their civilian counterparts on average, and
    veterans enrolled with the VA have better health outcomes than
    their civilian counterparts.
        The Joint Executive Committee stands as the bedrock of our
    collaborative efforts, and I have the privilege of serving as
    the DOD co-chair. The JEC provides the framework through which
    our agencies jointly oversee this transition process. The
    Transition Assistance Program Executive Council, a subordinate
    committee of the JEC, co-chaired by VA, Labor, and DOD, is
    responsible for ensuring that we have met statutory
    requirements, and continuously improve the transition process
    for future service members and their families.
        DOD, with the collaboration and coordination of our
    interagency partners, is supporting service members in their
    transition to civilian life with a human-centered design
    approach. Our lines of effort are too numerous to name them all
    here, but we have made great strides in mental health support
    services, career advancement, and educational resources,
    transitioning spouse employment assistance, and homelessness
    prevention, just to name a few.
        Our interagency team knows our work is ongoing. We are
    wholeheartedly committed to continuous improvement of the
    transition process and our Transition Assistance Program. We
    appreciate the legislative authorities that Congress provides
    to support transitioning service members and improve transition
    processes and programs. We continue to use those authorities
    with our interagency partners.
        In closing, I am proud of the holistic transition framework
    that delivers individualized support for service members and
    their families through our interagency partnership. With your
    continued support, we will uphold our promise to take care of
    our people, securing their future, and ensuring the continued
    success of the All-Volunteer Force.
        Thank you. And I look forward to your questions.

        [The prepared statement of Mr. Vazirani appears on page 69
    of the Appendix.]

        Chairman Reed. Thank you very much, Mr. Secretary.
        And I am now going to recognize the next person; if I can
    find my notes.
        Senator Moran. I think to recognize Mr. Jacobs.
        Chairman Reed. I think, we will recognize Mr. Jacobs now.
    Thank you, Senator Moran.
        Mr. Jacobs.

        STATEMENT OF HON. JOSHUA D. JACOBS, UNDER SECRETARY FOR
     BENEFITS, DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS AFFAIRS; ACCOMPANIED BY JOHN
              BOERSTLER, CHIEF VETERANS EXPERIENCE OFFICER

        Mr. Jacobs. Thank you very much. And good morning, Chairman
    Tester, Chairman Reed, Ranking Members Moran and Wicker, as
    well as Members of this distinguished Committee.
        I appreciate the opportunity to appear before you to
    discuss VA's efforts to support service members as they
    transition from military to civilian life.
        I am accompanied by VA's Chief Veteran Experience Officer,
    John Boerstler. And I am pleased to join our partners from DOD,
    DOL, GAO, as well as our VSO partners on the second panel.
        Each year, approximately 200,000 service members transition
    from military to civilian life. For many, transition is an
    opportunity to take on new challenges and build the next
    chapter in their lives. For others, this time can be daunting
    and filled with a mix of emotions and uncertainties. It is our
    duty to care for all types of veterans, regardless of where
    they are in this journey.
        We need to connect them with their earned benefits in
    health care, because veterans who utilize their earned benefits
    are healthier, they earn more, and they are better set up for
    success as they enter into civilian life; not only that, we
    know that our success or failure in connecting veterans with
    their benefits has lasting impacts on the military's ability to
    recruit future generations of service members.
        To empower transitioning service members in their journey
    toward a fulfilling civilian life, service members are allowed
    to begin their Transition Assistance Program one year prior to
    separation, or two years prior to retiring. Attending TAP as
    early as possible in the transition process is critical for
    transitioning service members, given the vast amount of
    information they need to digest in a compressed time frame. It
    also gives them the opportunity to access their earned VA
    benefits more quickly through the Benefits Delivery at
    Discharge Program, or to get their foot in the door to a
    potential employer through the SkillBridge Program.
        As part of the broader interagency TAP program, VA delivers
    a 1-day TAP course, which was attended by 88 percent of all VOW
    Act-eligible transitioning service members in FY '22. VA's TAP
    course is a valuable resource that provides guidance on how to
    access earned VA benefits and enroll in VA health care, and
    participation in TAP is correlated with a higher application
    rate for VA benefits.
        Additionally, VA also contacts all eligible veterans at
    three key stages during their first year after separation from
    active duty through a program called Solid Start, which was
    established in 2019. As of September 30th, Solid Start has
    assisted nearly 400,000 veterans with accessing their earned
    benefits. Despite these successes, too many recently separated
    veterans aren't accessing VA's most high-impact services within
    the first year after they separate from active duty, including
    health care and compensation benefits. Part of the reason for
    this may be that veterans under 40, and especially those under
    30, don't consider VA an immediate need, but they should.
        To tackle that challenge, VA, in partnership with all
    military service branches, as well as our federal partners,
    including DOD and DOL, are using the voice of veterans and
    their families to identify pain points and co-design solutions
    through extensive human-centered design research conducted over
    the last two years. Some of those pain points were echoed
    recently when Sergeant First Class Rima Rusnack [ph.] began her
    transition journey and started visualizing her life in a
    different capacity. A life geared more toward academics.
        For Rima, it was only two years ago that transition came on
    the radar. She has many goals for life after service, but for
    the first time in her career, she didn't know what actions to
    take. While still in uniform, she began studying to get her
    master's degree with the ultimate goal of obtaining her
    doctorate. She needed to know whether she would be financially
    secure during school, but she wasn't sure what the GI Bill
    would cover or when she could even utilize it.
        Rima is also a paratrooper. Every jump takes a toll no
    matter how well you execute the parachute landing fall. While
    knee and back pain from jumping out of airplanes is tolerable
    at this point, she expects it to become more of a challenge
    later in life. She was fortunate enough to attend TAP in
    February, and she applied for her benefits through BDD. She
    left active duty in August and received her first disability
    compensation payment in September. And as she begins this next
    chapter in her life, she is going to continue her service to
    this country through the Army Reserves.
        Stories like Rima's are why we are actively co-designing
    solutions that address pain points and demonstrate tangible
    value to Veterans. It is why we began hosting Annual Veteran
    Transition symposiums to coordinate and improve the way that we
    support transitioning service members and their families. It is
    why we are updating the TAP curriculum so accredited VSOs and
    State Departments of Veterans Affairs will now have the
    opportunity to directly engage with transitioning service
    members and their families for nearly an hour, at the end of
    every 1-day VA TAP class.
        And it is why the cross-agency team co-designed and is
    prototyping with service members, veterans, and their families
    a personalized digital solution that enables them to set goals,
    take action, and get help when they get stuck. We are also
    working to engage more with service members during their
    military career by collaborating with DOD to educate commanders
    on the importance of connecting service members and spouses
    with VA benefits and health care prior to separation; and as I
    stated earlier, improving the experience during that process.
        The military-to-civilian transition process brings
    opportunities for us to improve trust in VA, and support the
    personal growth of veterans as they navigate this challenging,
    but ultimately rewarding phase of their lives.
        Thank you for your continued support of transitioning
    service members, veterans, caregivers, and their survivors.
        I would be happy to answer any questions you or the
    Committee members may have.

        [The prepared statement of Mr. Jacobs appears on page 87 of
    the Appendix.]

        Chairman Tester. Thank you, Josh. Thank you for your
    testimony.
        Next up, we have, from the Department of Labor, the
    Honorable James Rodriguez, Assistant Secretary of Labor for
    Veterans' Employment and Training. You have the floor, James.

     STATEMENT OF HON. JAMES D. RODRIGUEZ, ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF
    LABOR FOR VETERANS' EMPLOYMENT AND TRAINING SERVICE, DEPARTMENT
                                OF LABOR

        Mr. Rodriguez. Chairman Tester, Chairman Reed, Ranking
    Member Moran, and Ranking Member Wicker, and distinguished
    Members of the Veterans Affairs and Armed Services Committees;
    thank you for the opportunity to testify before you today on
    the current state of the Transition Assistance Program and the
    steps that should be made to continue modernizing and reforming
    the program.
        I have spent my entire federal career serving veterans.
    This is my passion and that of my team who carry out our
    mission every day across the entire country. DOL is the federal
    lead for employment and training programs. Within DOL, VETS's
    mission is to prepare America's veterans, service members, and
    military spouses for meaningful careers, provide them with
    employment resources and expertise, protect their employment
    rights, and promote their employment opportunities.
        VETS administers employment programs for transitioning
    service members as part of TAP. Successful employment is a key
    to economic success and can strongly impact physical and mental
    health, life expectancy, and the quality of life. Our American
    Job Centers are one-stop locations that offer a broad range of
    career and supportive services to the public, and veterans
    receive priority service for all DOL-funded training programs.
    That is why it is so critical that DOL VETS is at the table
    today, and that we continue to have a seat at the table with
    our federal partners and to ensure the success of transitioning
    service members and veterans in the future.
        Today, I would like to highlight four topics that will
    interest this Committee. First, service members are attending
    DOL TAP employment workshops in record-breaking numbers. VETS
    administers three core TAP employment workshops: the 1-day
    Employment Fundamentals of Career Transition Workshop, the 2-
    day DOL Employment Workshop, and the 2-day Career and
    Credentialing Exploration Workshop.
        In FY 2022, we provided instructions to over 266,000
    participants, which is over a 40 percent increase from the
    previous workshop record in FY 2021. And our participant survey
    results are very encouraging. In FY 2023, 97 percent of
    participants indicated they would use what they learned in
    their own transition planning, and 95 percent reported that
    their confidence in transition planning was enhanced.
        Second, VETS is leading the way to transform the TAP
    employment space. Via the VETS Employer Outreach Program, VETS
    is also asking U.S. employers to participate in the DOD
    SkillBridge Program. Last year, employers provided 22,548
    employment-related DOD SkillBridge opportunities to service
    members across all services.
        And in response to consistent feedback that service members
    want more personalized support beyond the classroom
    environment, VETS created the Employment Navigator and
    Partnership Pilot, or ENPP. Since its launch in 2021, at 13
    military installations, ENPP has served about 13,000
    participants, and preliminary data shows that ENPP participants
    earn higher wages than those who did not participate in the
    ENPP.
        Third, VETS's pilot programs are a huge success. For
    example, as of March 31, 2023, 96 percent of ENPP survey
    respondents reported positive feelings after meeting with their
    employment navigator and would recommend ENPP to a friend or
    colleague. Additionally, 98 percent felt ENPP partners met or
    exceeded their employment-related expectations.
        And our off-based transition training pilot provides
    veterans and their spouses workshops modeled after our TAP
    curriculum at locations across the active-duty military
    installations in areas with high veteran unemployment in 10
    pilot states so that they can get additional post-separation
    assistance when they need it.
        Fourth, VETS will leverage data to improve TAP outcomes.
    Traditionally, VETS has only had access to data about TAP
    workshops and those workshop participants. However, new
    initiatives such as ENPP have enabled VETS to access employment
    outcome information on our transitioning service members
    through a National Directory of New Hires at the Department of
    Health and Human Services. DOL will leverage this information
    to improve program delivery and employment outcomes, and we
    look forward to sharing the outcomes of our research with our
    partners and stakeholders in the future.
        In conclusion, our long-term strategic goal for TAP is for
    the Nation to recognize military service as a path to high-
    quality, civilian careers. The future of the country's All-
    Volunteer Force across the Armed Services depends on this
    recognition, and we look forward to working with the Committees
    to ensure all veterans can secure a good job that will provide
    them with career advancement opportunities.
        Thank you again for the invitation to participate in this
    hearing with my colleagues from VA, DOD, and the GAO, and I
    welcome your questions.

        [The prepared statement of Mr. Rodriquez appears on page
    101 of the Appendix.]

        Chairman Tester. Yes. Thank you for your testimony, Mr.
    Rodriguez.
        Next up from the Government Accountability Office, we have
    John Sawyer, Director of Education, Workforce, and Income
    Security.

     STATEMENT OF JOHN D. SAWYER, DIRECTOR, EDUCATION, WORKFORCE,
         AND INCOME SECURITY, GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABILITY OFFICE

        Mr. Sawyer. Chairmen Reed and Tester, Ranking Members
    Wicker and Moran, and Members of the Committee, thank you for
    the opportunity to discuss GAO's recent work on programs that
    help service members transition from military service to
    civilian life.
        Over the next few years, more than half-a-million service
    members are expected to take this critical step. There are
    several federal programs that provide benefits and services to
    help service members achieve their educational, employment, and
    other goals, and overcome potential challenges in adjusting to
    civilian life.
        Today, I would like to highlight: (1) our work on DOD's
    credentialing programs that help service members obtain
    civilian credentials related to their military skills and
    training, (2) DOD's Transition Assistance Program, which
    provides tailored counseling and classes to help service
    members achieve their post-transition goals, and (3) VA's Solid
    Start Program, which serves new veterans in their first year
    after leaving military service.
        Our work has found that oversight and implementation of
    these programs could be enhanced to better achieve their
    intended benefits. Since February 2022, we have issued 10
    recommendations on these programs. I am pleased to report that
    VA implemented our Solid Start recommendation to further
    collaborate with Veterans Service Organizations to identify and
    address outreach gaps for hard-to-reach veterans. As a result,
    VA increased its rate of successful outreach to younger
    veterans and continues to regularly coordinate with VSOs to
    enhance its overall outreach.
        The remaining recommendations were directed at DOD and its
    service branches. For example, we found that DOD's
    credentialing programs lacked adequate evidence to show that
    the programs were working. As a result, we recommended that DOD
    more fully assess the effectiveness of its credentialing
    programs. DOD agreed and expects to implement this
    recommendation in fiscal year 2025.
        The remaining recommendations were issued in our December
    2022 report on DOD's Transition Assistance Program. In that
    report, we found that attendance in the tailored 2-day classes
    increased significantly since 2016. However, the service
    branches waived over half of transitioning service members from
    attending them. Per Service Branch policies, service members
    who need maximum transition support must attend a 2-day class,
    but we found that nearly a quarter of them did not.
        And finally, we found that most transitioning service
    members (70 percent) did not start TAP at least one year in
    advance, as generally required. While the service branches and
    the TAP Policy Office collect and review performance
    information on 2-day class attendance and timeliness, they do
    not fully leverage this information to understand and improve
    results. We believe that better understanding root causes for
    attendance and timeliness results would help DOD improve
    service members' ability to benefit from the full range of
    transition resources available to them.
        Effectively addressing the outstanding recommendations
    would help DOD gain reasonable assurance that every service
    member who leaves the military receives the best possible
    chance to succeed as they transition back to civilian life.
        This concludes my oral statement. I would be happy to
    respond to any questions.

        [The prepared statement of Mr. Sawyer appears on page 111
    of the Appendix.]

        Chairman Tester. Thank you for your statement. Thank the
    whole panel for their statements. There are two panels today. I
    would ask the members on the rostrum, and we get four minutes
    to ask questions. So get your good questions up so we don't run
    over, because otherwise, this would be an incredibly long
    hearing, not that it shouldn't be because it is important.
        I am going to start my questions with you, Mr. Sawyer,
    since you are warmed up. In your review of the transition
    process, did you identify--you talked about they didn't start
    to--many of them didn't start transition one year in advance;
    did you identify the reasons why?
        Mr. Sawyer. Thank you for that question, Chairman Tester.
    In our report, we did not specifically identify reasons why
    individuals were not starting the Transition Assistance Program
    at least one year in advance of their anticipated separation or
    transition date. We did find that there is information
    available to DOD to allow them to assess the results, and that
    is why we recommended that they use this information to
    identify and understand root causes.
        Chairman Tester. So we will go to you, Mr. Vazirani. How
    does the DOD hold commanders, or does it hold commanders
    accountable for providing service members the need for
    transition, the time they need for transition?
        Mr. Vazirani. Senator, thank you. The DOD is holding, or
    observing and watching what the commanders are doing. And so we
    do that through collecting data on the Transition Assistance
    Program. We have compliance measures and timeliness measures,
    we measure compliance across eight domains, and we measure
    timeliness whether the service member starts 365 days in
    advance.
        Chairman Tester. And what are you seeing with those
    measurements?
        Mr. Vazirani. What we are seeing is, as has been reported,
    about 30 percent are starting on time. We know that we have to
    make improvements there. We are providing that data to the
    services. And one of the things that we are also doing is, at
    the assessment at the end of TAP, understanding if there are
    barriers to that timeliness. And what we are finding is that
    those barriers tend to be in the area of three categories:
    involuntary separations which are happening within that 365-day
    time period, mission requirements, and then also personal
    decisions.
        Chairman Tester. So you are in a tough position because
    everybody on this roster knows the military needs every person
    they can get and keep every person that they have available to
    them. So I think the last thing you want to talk about is
    transitioning folks out of the military. But I think it is
    important that this is a group effort, that is why everybody is
    here today. We have got you representing the DOD, we have got
    Jacobs representing the VA, we have got the folks on this panel
    that give us the full gamut. We have got a massive problem that
    has been around for a long time in mental health with the folks
    that are coming out. And the statistics that I read in my
    opening statement show that this is really most prevalent in
    enlisted members.
        So do you have; do you have, before I move on--just real
    quickly, Mr. Vazirani, do you have any ideas on how we can make
    it better while keeping our numbers up in the military?
        Mr. Vazirani. Senator, as the Secretary said, mental health
    is health, and we are very focused on assessing the mental
    health of service members and ensuring their mental health
    throughout their time of service, through the congressionally
    mandated suicide prevention response.
        Chairman Tester. Yes.
        Mr. Vazirani. We have implemented, we are implementing a
    program looking across and implementing a public health
    approach, ensuring that we are fostering a supportive
    environment, that we are addressing stigma, that we are
    improving the delivery of behavioral health care, and that we
    are revising suicide prevention training so that commanders and
    our first-line leaders understand the signs of where a service
    member may have concerns about their mental health or
    behavioral health.
        Chairman Tester. Thank you. I will go to Chairman Reed, and
    then Ranking Member Moran.
        Chairman Reed. Thank you very much, Chairman Tester.
        Quickly, Mr. Vazirani, what steps are you taking to get
    compliance with the statutory 365-day sign-up? There are some
    circumstances in which you can't, i.e., someone who is
    terminated from duty prior to that time period. But what are
    you doing specifically?
        Mr. Vazirani. Senator, one of the things that we are doing
    is we are in the process of integrating a single data
    repository that will allow for that measurement and providing
    that information back to the military services and to
    commanders. And when we think about the accountability portion
    of this, we try to think about this non-accountability
    necessarily from a punitive standpoint, but from what can we
    learn? Are we understanding the best practices? And are we
    sharing those best practices across the services?
        Chairman Reed. Well, thank you. One of my experiences is
    that the transition from uniform to civilian, DOD to VA, the
    most challenging aspect is medical health care. I recall going
    up to Walter Reed in 2000, visiting and finding people who were
    there for six or seven months trying to get their VA
    eligibility or disability status to a level that meets the
    military level. And the other issue, just the first step. Have
    we successfully combined electronic medical records between the
    VA and the Department of Defense yet?
        Mr. Vazirani. Senator, the Department of Defense has
    completed the deployment of the electronic health record within
    Kronos, with the exception of the Lovell Center in Chicago, and
    we are working with our partners at the VA to implement that.
    We are taking all of the lessons we have learned through the
    Kronos implementation and applying that to ensure that we have
    a successful implementation at Lovell.
        Chairman Reed. But we are not operational yet; are we?
        Mr. Vazirani. We are not operational between the two
    systems; however, we do have visibility, so there is a sharing
    of information between DOD and VA. So while the electronic
    health record is not operational, there is a sharing of
    information to coordinate that care, and ensure continuity of
    care.
        Chairman Reed. Well, I would encourage you. I mean, this is
    slightly off-topic, but not entirely. I would expedite that. It
    is something going on now for a decade or more, and that would,
    I think, help smooth out the transition dramatically.
        And what are the primary choke points, Mr. Jacobs,
    Secretary, between VA in terms of healthcare? I understand that
    VA does a separate independent disability assessment; is that
    true, that differs from the Department of Defense?
        Mr. Jacobs. We have a joint program called IDES, when a
    service member is--when they have a condition that impedes
    their service, where we can do a joint disability process. But
    for anyone applying for VA disability compensation, that is a
    separate and distinct approach. And the benefits that we
    provide, in terms of disability compensation, are not only a
    recognition of the impact of the individual service, but they
    are also a gateway to other benefits. They impact healthcare
    eligibility, and the criteria, the priority group within
    healthcare. It also can inform eligibility for other benefits
    and make connections.
        Chairman Reed. But the reality is that a DOD physician
    could give someone an 80 percent disability rating that the VA
    would independently rate?
        Mr. Jacobs. We are providing independent assessments based
    on our rating schedule for disability compensation purposes.
        Chairman Reed. I think that is something that deserves
    further coordination, and maybe even legislative support. I
    think that would be helpful. Thank you. I know this is a very
    challenging situation. But the other point, too, I presume, and
    I have exceeded my time. Just very quickly. There is a mandate
    for an information session on medical health care opportunities
    that are specifically designed for the retiring veteran?
        Mr. Jacobs. Yes. And the 1-day VA TAP course that we
    provide, we include information about health care, in addition
    to the full suite of other benefits.
        Chairman Reed. Thank you.
        Chairman Tester. Ranking Member Moran.
        Senator Moran. Chairman, thank you.
        Secretary Vazirani, both of my colleagues who preceded me
    in asking questions have highlighted the need for, and I think
    our view that the Department of Defense further emphasize and
    act more expeditiously. Would you confirm to me that you
    understand and support the value of this transition program for
    the benefit of the servicemen and women who serve today and the
    veterans they will be tomorrow? And tell me what the impediment
    in the Department of Defense and the branches is toward moving
    more expeditiously to meet the requirements of the statute?
        Mr. Vazirani. Senator, I do confirm our commitment to
    taking care of people and ensuring that service members make a
    successful transition so that they are successful; as a veteran
    as well. We are working with the military departments and
    services to make sure that they have the information available
    about the starting of TAP and the completion of TAP, providing
    that information, creating dashboards that the commanders have
    available to them, and their leaders have available to them, so
    that we have a clear understanding of if there are any barriers
    to TAP and addressing those barriers.
        Senator Moran. What, if any, is the pushback or the lack of
    enthusiasm for complying with the law by those you are
    informing?
        Mr. Vazirani. Sir, we have not heard any pushback regarding
    compliance with the law. I think the one thing that we do is we
    trust our commanders to ensure that they are balancing the
    readiness of their unit with the needs of the individual. The
    one thing that we do understand, and we have been taking
    advantage of, is this full year to plan for transition so that
    the service member has time to customize that approach for
    their expectations and for their needs.
        Senator Moran. Mr. Sawyer, you highlighted in your
    testimony, and in response to Senator Tester about the data,
    including the lack of 2-day attendance as being waived. What is
    the plan at GAO to try to push the services to take statutory
    mandate seriously, and decrease the utilization of their waiver
    authority?
        Mr. Sawyer. Thank you for that question, sir. Now, in our
    report we did not direct any recommendations toward the
    waivers. We did notice that for some 53 percent of those who
    were transitioning, waivers were granted. We are not sure why
    that occurred. Our scope did not allow us to investigate that.
    However, we did see that among tier 3 service members, those
    who are designated as having the greatest risk of a successful
    transition, some 22 percent did not take the class at all. And
    that is why we recommended that DOD should spend some time
    evaluating root causes. Is it commander support? Is it the
    culture change? Is it mission requirements? What are the
    reasons that are driving this?
        Senator Moran. Is the timing of your recommendations and
    the response to your recommendations such that we should see
    further progress at the DOD, or the VA, or the Department of
    Labor in response to your recommendations? Or is this the
    course of business at the moment?
        Mr. Sawyer. To answer that question, based on our follow-up
    and discussions with DOD and VA, they are moving toward
    addressing these recommendations and issues.
        Senator Moran. So GAO feels comfortable with the progress
    that those two Departments are making?
        [Pause.]
        Mr. Sawyer. We----
        Senator Moran. All right. Let me ask you this question:
    Should I feel comfortable with the progress that these two
    Departments are making?
        Mr. Sawyer. I think you should feel comfortable with the
    progress. However, we have recommendations and we are going to
    monitor the corrective actions. Because these recommendations
    deal with identifying root causes, they are tough
    recommendations in that you really have to go below the surface
    and really try to identify reasons why these timeliness and
    attendance results are such that they are.
        Senator Moran. Mr. Sawyer, if I don't reach out to you,
    would you reach out to me with any concerns that you have in
    the recommendations being followed?
        Mr. Sawyer. Absolutely, sir.
        Senator Moran. Thank you, sir.
        Chairman Tester. In lieu of Ranking Member Wicker, Senator
    Fischer.

                           HON. DEB FISCHER,
                       U.S. SENATOR FROM NEBRASKA

        Senator Fischer. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Mr. Vazirani, within the TAP, how much leeway is given to
    individual TAP offices to teach the curriculum so they can
    tailor it to their needs? For example, if you have a service
    member who is going to sign up again, but that doesn't show on
    their records yet, they still have to attend the weeklong
    class; is that correct?
        Mr. Vazirani. Senator, if I can clarify your question. If a
    service member has gone through TAP, transitioned and then come
    back into service, is that the question, sorry?
        Senator Fischer. No. No. If they are still in the service,
    but with the requirements and the timeline that is there, they
    have to start the process, but yet their records haven't kept
    up with their intentions, that they plan to reenlist, for
    example. Are the programs given any kind of flexibility to be
    able to tailor it to certain instances?
        Mr. Vazirani. Senator, the program is designed to tailor to
    each individual. Each individual goes through an individual
    assessment, and they are tiered. They then have a separation
    counseling to help them understand which elements of the TAP
    program will be beneficial for them. At the end of the program,
    there is also a capstone, which the commander will sign off on
    completion. If during that time period, the service member
    decides they want to stay in service, then there would not be a
    need to complete the program.
        Senator Fischer. Okay. Do you think you have the program
    appropriately staffed to handle the current number of military
    personnel?
        Mr. Vazirani. Senator, we do believe we have the current
    level of staffing correct. I think as we continue to learn more
    about the program, we will continue to evolve that and
    determine whether or not additional authorizations are required
    to fulfill the program. But at this point, we do believe that
    we have the right staffing.
        Senator Fischer. We have seen a GAO study from December
    2022, and it found that nearly 25 percent of service members
    who needed that maximum support didn't attend the mandatory 2-
    day class. So what steps do you see the Department needs to
    take or are you taking now that would address that?
        Mr. Vazirani. Senator, we are taking steps to get a better
    understanding of why service members are electing not to
    participate. There are service members who want--as I indicated
    earlier, the personal decisions why they wouldn't. So we are
    trying to get a better understanding of that. We are also
    ensuring that----
        Senator Fischer. What specifically are you doing?
        Mr. Vazirani. So through the TAP assessment, we are digging
    into that and understanding those barriers. And then the other
    thing, through the commander's capstone, getting a better
    understanding of why that service member would not want to
    participate in that program.
        Mr. Jacobs. And Senator Fischer, if I might add; one of the
    things that we are doing is we are recognizing that TAP is a
    commander's program. We are creating a visual management tool
    so that commanders have greater visibility of their
    transitioning service members. It is work that Mr. Boerstler is
    leading through a human design element. We are prototyping that
    tool, and if it is appropriate, I would love for him to share a
    little bit about that.
        Senator Fischer. That would be great. When you say you are
    prototyping it, do you have a pilot program in place? Are you
    using it?
        Mr. Boerstler. Yes, Senator. We are currently actually
    testing it this week with command teams. So this cannot only
    include the commanders themselves, but the senior enlisted
    personnel that are supporting the commanders' decisions. It
    will give them much greater visibility, as Mr. Jacobs
    mentioned, to actually see which units that they oversee are in
    compliance with the 12-month or 24-month requirements.
        This is a decision that has been co-designed from all of
    our agencies, plus a few more, including all six service
    branches, and has been taken through our governance process. So
    it is underway and it should be available next year.
        Senator Fischer. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Chairman Tester. Senator Hassan.

                       HON. MARGARET WOOD HASSAN,
                    U.S. SENATOR FROM NEW HAMPSHIRE

        [Technical issue.]
        Senator Hassan [continuing]. Really help build that sense
    of community that is so important. Now, I will start with a
    question to you, Mr. Vazirani. Senator Cramer and I, as you
    know, worked together last year to pass into law of the Solid
    Start Act, which requires the VA to call each veteran three
    times within their first year of separating from the military
    to make sure that they know about and understand the VA
    benefits that are available to them.
        In your written testimony, you referred to the year before
    separation and the year after separation as the critical
    transition period. The Solid Start Program helps with the
    second half of that critical transition period. How can we
    provide a similarly tailored approach to service members in the
    first half of that transition period as they prepare to
    separate from the military, to help them plan for and work
    toward their long-term goals post-military service, including
    for future careers? And I hope you were able to hear that.
    Apparently, there was some difficulty with this speaker, this
    microphone.
        Mr. Vazirani. Senator, thank you for that question, I was
    able to hear the question. I appreciate it. As I indicated, and
    as I said earlier, we certainly believe that mental health is
    health, and throughout the service members' cycle of service,
    we do have checks on their mental health. During that 365 days
    in the transition time period, we have worked with our
    interagency partners in developing an enterprise individual
    assessment, and that covers nine different domains. As we look
    at those, that is how we understand how to tailor the program,
    the Transition Assistance Program, for that service member.
        Senator Hassan. Well, thank you. And I hope that includes
    some real outreach similar to what we are trying to accomplish
    in Solid Start, so that everything doesn't rest with the
    service member to initiate the transition services.
        Mr. Vazirani. Senator, it does. And in that, in that if a
    service member has had, through that mental health assessment,
    or interaction with behavioral health, and mental health, they
    are referred to the inTransition Program which helps them to
    understand what services would be available, and help them
    transition.
        Senator Hassan. I understand that, and my time is short, so
    I will follow up with you. But it is not just about mental
    health, right? I mean there are other things that veterans need
    and they need outreach for. So let us move to one other
    question, because I continually hear how service members feel
    unprepared to transition into their new careers, or move to new
    places, because they don't have connections with local
    community, something New Hampshire is proactively trying to
    deal with.
        So for example, James Roberg of Antrim, New Hampshire,
    shared with my office his experience working for the New
    Hampshire Department of Military Affairs, and Veteran Services.
    This state office has developed a variety of resources to help
    transitioning service members and veterans including a research
    book full of available state and local resources. Like many
    other transitioning service members, James had no idea that
    there was a state office like this in New Hampshire, and yet he
    eventually ended up working there, and to this day continues to
    help educate other service members on employment opportunities
    in the state. In New Hampshire we have worked to help address
    this gap in knowledge, because we value veterans in our
    community, and recognize their contributions to our workforce.
        So I would ask that you guys respond to this in writing,
    because I am running out of time. But I am very interested in
    how we can ensure that more service members get directly
    connected to state and local resources that can provide
    meaningful connections with the communities that the veteran
    plans to reside in, before the veteran makes that transition.
    Thank you all so much for your work.
        Chairman Tester. There will be a number of questions for
    the record. And I would hope that you all answer them in a
    timely manner.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    DoD Response: DoD agrees that linking transitioning Service members with
     local communities where they intend to reside post-military service is
     vital to a successful transition. The DoD has Memoranda of
     Understanding with all 54 states, territories and the District of
     Columbia, to provide states' Departments of Veterans Affairs with
     information about transitioning service members. States in turn use
     this data too in a number of ways, including welcoming Service members
     to their state and connecting Service members to local resources.
     Additionally, states and accredited Veterans Service Organizations are
     provided with up to 45 minutes during of the TAP course to brief
     transitioning Service member on services offered by their
     organizations.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

        Senator Scott.

                            HON. RICK SCOTT,
                       U.S. SENATOR FROM FLORIDA

        Senator Scott. Thank you, Chairman. First off, I want to
    thank each of you for being here; thank you for caring about
    our service men and women, and their families, and thank you
    for what you try to do every day.
        I am just going to give you a couple experiences I had. I
    was in the Navy and got out. Do you think anybody before talked
    to me about what I was going to do afterwards? Do you think
    anybody ever called me afterwards? Nobody, ever, nobody ever.
    In 2011, I became Governor of Florida, and right after I won
    the election I welcomed some National Guard members back from
    overseas, and 30 percent unemployment. Now, unemployment was
    bad at the time, but 30 percent unemployment, and their
    experiences, you know, nobody was talking to them about how to
    get a job.
        So we put a lot of effort into--in our state into, one,
    making sure people could get a job, and then a variety of other
    issues. We also had a state agency that just did Veteran
    Affairs, and the thing that surprised me the most, it was there
    was no coordination with the Federal Government, I mean, like
    none. They wouldn't give us any information on who was getting
    out, and so, I mean there is a big opportunity to help our
    families.
        And so my goal as Governor was to make Florida the place
    where you want to serve; and number two is, make it the place
    where you want to retire. And so we did a variety of things.
    And I have been up here five years, and I am really proud of
    the things that the Armed Services Committee has done. The 2019
    NDAA established programs for counseling Pathways, for self-
    assessments, for individualized initial counseling, tier
    assignments that reflect the service members' transition
    preparedness, revised curriculum, and improvement to the
    Transition Assistance Program,
        There is just a lot of--I think this Armed Services
    Committee has done a lot of good things, but we are here, you
    know, in my state there is a lot of news from our Veterans
    Service Organizations, and also from the GAO report in 2022
    that indicates it is not working the way it should. And then we
    had a meeting yesterday, and you are absolutely committed to
    getting this done.
        But the GAO said that 90 percent of the transition troops
    participated, but one-quarter did not even attend the mandatory
    2-day class. So there has to be a lot of things to make that
    happen. Florida is home to--we have 21 military bases, three in
    the flight commands. I always think it is the best place to
    serve, but I think there is a lot of opportunities that we have
    to make it better.
        So here, let me get to my questions, and I think we did
    everything we could. I mean, we have waived every fee for
    spouses. Probably one the biggest things we did was parents
    that had a child in the Medicaid, and needed them to have a
    Medicaid waiver, they would go to the bottom of the list,
    mostly. And we changed it, they went to the top of the list.
    That changed people's lives a lot.
        So can any of you talk to me about how you work with your
    state counterparts? Because I assume most states have what I
    had; there is a state agency, and how do you work with them
    now?
        Mr. Jacobs. Yes. Thank you, Senator, for that question. And
    I have to say you have an excellent veteran leader and advocate
    in ``Hammer'', Hammer Hartsell, who is the Lead of the State
    Department of Veterans Affairs in Florida.
        Senator Scott. Yes.
        Mr. Jacobs. It seems like every time we have an engagement,
    he is there. We actively work with all of the State Departments
    of Veterans Affairs through the NASDVA program. And one of the
    things that we are doing through the upgrade to our VA TAP
    curriculum, is we are including at the end of our day, for the
    last 45 to 60 minutes, a portion of the day where accredited
    VSOs in State Departments of Veterans Affairs can directly
    engage with transitioning service members, because we know that
    personal relationship is important. That when veterans go home
    they are provided with 200 pages of material on VA benefits and
    healthcare alone.
        There are a lot of questions, and they have incredible
    advocates in both accredited VSOs and state and local
    government who are there, and whose sole purpose is to help
    connect them to those earned benefits. So we actively work with
    them, we actively seek input and feedback on our programs. I
    get feedback from Hammer personally, when something is not
    going well, or he wants to say: Hey, you know, your staff did a
    great job, you should recognize them. And so it is a really
    important part of our operating model, and they are really
    valued partners.
        Senator Scott. Thanks. Thanks for what you guys are doing.
        Chairman Tester. Senator Shaheen.

                          HON. JEANNE SHAHEEN,
                    U.S. SENATOR FROM NEW HAMPSHIRE

        Senator Shaheen. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And thank you all
    for being here. I want to make sure I understand some of the
    testimony earlier with respect to the TAP program. Mr.
    Rodriguez, I understand you to say that vets are attending TAP
    in record numbers; was that correct?
        Mr. Rodriguez. Yes, it is. I am talking about the DOL
    version of TAP, that 1-day TAP course.
        Senator Shaheen. Okay. So that is a different TAP course
    than----
        Mr. Rodriguez. Well, it is a single day that is separate
    from the DOD and the Veterans Affairs days.
        Senator Shaheen. And how do you coordinate with what DOD is
    doing?
        Mr. Rodriguez. We work seamlessly together as part of the
    TAP Executive Committee, the Joint Executive Committee, we work
    together to ensure that TAP is a seamless transfer of
    information and sharing of resources to better prepare that
    service member when they are preparing to transition out of the
    military.
        Senator Shaheen. So if I am a service member, can I go to
    the DOL TAP rather than DOD TAP?
        Mr. Rodriguez. It is the same TAP, so there are three
    mandatory days: one day DOD, one day Department of Veterans
    Affairs, one day DOL, and then there are two additional
    optional days that a service member can take.
        Senator Shaheen. So what percentage are actually attending
    DOL's TAP?
        Mr. Rodriguez. I don't have the percentage, Senator, but I
    can tell you the numbers. Roughly 148,560 service members are
    going through the 1-day DOL TAP.
        Senator Shaheen. But I understood you to say, Mr. Sawyer,
    that 70 percent of members of the military who are getting out
    didn't attend. Are you talking about a different program?
        Mr. Sawyer. Thank you. The 70 percent relates to those
    starting the program at least one year in advance of their
    transition date.
        Senator Shaheen. I can understand why veterans might be
    confused because the coordination is challenging. And as we
    heard from virtually both--all the Chair and Ranking Members
    talked about the mental health challenges and the number of
    veterans who are at risk of suicide.
        And Mr.--is it Boerstler? I understand that you have worked
    with our European allies about how they administer their
    transition assistant programs. Do veterans--non-U.S. Veterans
    face the same risk of suicide in their first year as U.S.
    Veterans?
        Mr. Boerstler. Senator, I would have to take that question
    for the record because we don't--to understand their
    methodologies and how they measure that rate, but I do know
    that there are some great programs that our allies use as well
    as our own. But I think we still have the best system.
        Senator Shaheen. So when you talk about those great
    programs, are there things that we should be adopting from what
    our allies are doing?
        Mr. Boerstler. I do think that we--as I mentioned, Senator,
    we do have the best system when we compare to a lot of our
    allies and the way that they execute these programs. There are
    some interesting use cases, particularly in the United Kingdom
    and their Career Transition Partnership, but in the intervening
    years, as Assistant Secretary Rodriguez mentioned, the ENPP
    program for the Department of Labor almost mirrors what the
    United Kingdom has been doing. It has been very successful. So
    I think there is a lot we can learn from each other.
        Senator Shaheen. I appreciate that.
        Mr. Jacobs, one of the things that we are hearing in New
    Hampshire is that too many veterans are not taking advantage of
    the VA benefits, particularly for mental health. It is the
    theme that everybody has referenced in all of the questions. So
    what can we do better?
        Mr. Jacobs. Thank you very much for that question. We know
    that when veterans connect and access their earned benefits,
    whether it is disability compensation, home loans, education,
    or their VA health care, they have better health outcomes, they
    have better economic opportunities, and it decreases the risk
    for suicide.
        Senator Shaheen. Right. Okay. How do we do that?
        Mr. Jacobs. Correct. So we are aggressively continuing to
    do more outreach. So during the transition period, we are
    identifying where there are veterans transitioning service
    members at risk and providing a warm handover. We have benefits
    counselors, we have military service coordinators, and there
    are VHA liaisons on military treatment facilities.
        Part of the way that we are doing that is through the Solid
    Start Program, where we are calling transitioning service
    members three times in the first year after they leave the
    military, at the 90-, 180-, and 365-day marks. And the goal of
    this program when it was created, was to address the very real
    mental health concerns that we are all focused on. And the
    program is structured in a way where it is open-ended, so it is
    really tailored around responding to the veterans' needs.
        Do they need a connection with a mental health counselor?
    And then we can connect them to a Vet Center, a CBOC, a medical
    center. Do they need a status update on their claim? Do they
    need assistance with their claim? Do they need help pursuing
    housing? And so we have opportunities like that. But it is
    also, to the point that was made earlier, it is Buddy Check
    Week. It is promoting opportunities for us, not only as a
    government, but as a broader society, to support one another,
    to know the signs, to look out for, so that when we see a
    fellow veteran, a friend in crisis, you know that there is a
    place to help them, even if you don't have the resources to do
    it yourself.
        Senator Shaheen. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Chairman Tester. Senator Schmitt.

                           HON. ERIC SCHMITT,
                       U.S. SENATOR FROM MISSOURI

        Senator Schmitt. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you all for
    being here, and the work that you do every day, helping the
    folks that served us in Missouri. We are really proud. We have
    got three bases. We have got Whiteman Air Force Base, we have
    got Fort Leonard Wood, and we have got Rosecrans, which is the
    Air National Guard Base in Northwest Missouri. And so those
    folks that have committed themselves to this country, they
    deserve all the support and the best support, which is why we
    are all here. So thank you for that.
        I wanted to ask just two questions, and I will just throw
    it out whoever wants to answer. The first is Senator Ossoff and
    I co-sponsored a bill that would support military spouses as
    they are being reassigned to ease some of the regulatory
    burdens that exist as they are moving from place to place. What
    are just one or two things that we can do better to ease that
    sort of burden? As they want to continue their careers or
    business ventures as they are moving from place to place?
        Mr. Vazirani. Senator, if I may, I will start. First of
    all, thank you very much for the work that you have done to
    support military spouse employment. The one thing that we are
    finding is really effective for military spouses is the
    COMPACTs and encouraging the states to sign on to COMPACTs.
    That portability, not only benefits an active duty--the spouse
    of an active-duty service member, it supports spouses of
    veterans, it supports all Americans. And so the more that we
    can get states to sign on to those COMPACTs, I think we will
    find that we will have greater portability.
        Senator Schmitt. Thank you. I don't know if anybody else
    had anything to add to that.
        Mr. Rodriguez. Senator, I will add a few things there.
        Senator Schmitt. Okay.
        Mr. Rodriguez. One of the biggest challenges is our
    military spouses are at a 31 percent unemployment rate, so they
    have the highest unemployment rate of any category affiliated
    with the military community. So we need to figure out a way to
    protect military spouses' employment when they are transferring
    from duty station to duty station, or if their spouse is guard
    or reserve, and they are called to active duty, and that spouse
    has to take time away to take care of their families, or
    whatever things that come as part of life when someone is
    active duty, or called to active duty.
        I think there are ways to protect military spouses, to give
    them the courage to identify as military spouses, and finally--
    encourage employers to actually employ these military spouses
    and help retain that spousal employment when someone is called
    to active duty.
        Mr. Jacobs. And I will add, at the risk of being a bit
    parochial, we are actively looking to hire military spouses at
    VA. We know they are incredible mission-oriented teammates that
    need sometimes additional flexibility to enable them to
    continue to support our mission while moving and in partnership
    with their spouse. So we are actively working to do that from a
    VA perspective as well.
        Senator Schmitt. I am sure this is probably true for other
    senators, but I know that as I get around Missouri and talk to
    employers, they are--I mean, they are looking for skilled
    people. The labor shortage obviously is a broad issue. But as
    it relates to military folks, and this question has been asked
    in a few different ways but you know, it is the United States
    Senate. Just because a question has been asked, it doesn't mean
    it has been asked by everybody.
        Your sort of take on: What are a couple of things that we
    can do better to make sure that, you know, our military
    servicemen and women, while they are in active duty, can avail
    themselves to as much of that training as possible as they
    transition? Because there is a great need out there, and I know
    that a lot of employers are really looking for people who
    served the country as well. What are just a couple of takeaways
    that we can take back home and work on?
        Mr. Vazirani. Senator, I will start on that. As we think
    about the opportunities for military--the service member and
    the military spouse to gain employment, or to be successful as
    they go beyond, I think encouraging employers to get involved
    in the programs that we have, whether it is SkillBridge, or our
    Military Spouse Employment Partnership, those would be helpful.
    I think the other thing, sir, that would be really helpful is
    if we can encourage more Americans to talk about the value of
    service, and the benefits, and how successful veterans are.
    That will help us on the front-end as well as we encourage
    people to come into service.
        Mr. Jacobs. And I would just briefly add. You know, one of
    the things I heard when I joined Hiring Our Heroes in a
    community event with the health and life sciences industry is
    that oftentimes companies will have incredible veteran
    candidates. They may not have a position that they can offer
    them, but they think it is a valuable resource. And so it is
    making, kind of, that connective tissue a little bit stronger
    so that they have got colleagues in industry who they can refer
    those incredible candidates to, even if they can't offer a
    position at that time.
        Senator Schmitt. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Chairman Tester. Senator Murray.

                           HON. PATTY MURRAY,
                      U.S. SENATOR FROM WASHINGTON

        Senator Murray. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, for
    having this hearing. Thank you all for being here.
        There is no question that our service members deserve a
    seamless transition out of the military to VA services. In my
    home State of Washington, DOD went live with its own electronic
    health records program back in 2017. It has its own challenges,
    and I am sure you all know that when the VA rolled out its EHR
    program, it was not working the way it should have, and patient
    safety has been a very big concern.
        So I want to make sure that DOD is working hand-in-hand
    with VA so that we can truly have a seamless electronic health
    record system that is available across both agencies to serve
    service members and veterans alike.
        Mr. Vazirani, I want to ask you, can you share some of the
    lessons DOD has learned while you rolled out your EHR system?
    And how did you earn back the trust with providers and service
    members after you had significant periods of system downtime?
        Mr. Vazirani. Senator, thank you for that. As we have
    rolled out our EHR, the things that we learned, particularly
    through that first time period, the things that we--the
    barriers that we had in utilization, we have learned about what
    we need to do from a usability standpoint to make the EHR more
    usable for the healthcare provider. We have learned about the
    training that we need to conduct to ensure that there is a
    quick ramp-up on utilization. And those are some of the things
    and some of the lessons that we have learned and that we shared
    with our VA partners.
        Senator Murray. Okay. I appreciate that. I wanted to ask
    you about women's service members, because transitioning out of
    the military is a challenging experience for all service
    members, but it is particularly difficult for women who face
    additional barriers in the civilian world. Everything from
    gender pay caps, to sexual harassment, lack of access to
    childcare. And there was a study by Syracuse University that 54
    percent of women veterans who left the service didn't feel
    prepared to navigate the resources available to them in their
    local communities. That is compared to 35 percent of male
    veterans.
        Mr. Vazirani, has DOD tailored the Transition Assistance
    Program at all for women service members?
        Mr. Vazirani. Senator, we have. One of the things that we
    do through that transition process, and particularly in that--
    understanding of what benefits are available, and the care, we
    have tailored, particularly the education around health
    benefits and how to access health benefits for women. The other
    thing that we continue to do is focusing on all veterans, but
    particularly for women, is to understand, for those who may
    have come across or encountered something along the spectrum of
    harm, the resource is available to them there.
        Senator Murray. Thank you.
        Mr. Vazirani: So I will turn to maybe Mr. Jacobs.
        Senator Murray. Very good.
        Mr. Vazirani. And he could talk about what VA would?
        Senator Murray. Yes.
        Mr. Jacobs. Senator, we have what is called the Women's
    Health Transition Training program, which provides tailored
    support and information for transitioning service members,
    includes gender-specific health care information as well as
    information about how to access benefits in a timely way. What
    I would say is, it is underutilized. So we are working to try
    to get the word out and promote and encourage more
    transitioning service members to take it, because we do think
    it is a valuable resource.
        Senator Murray. Okay. Thank you. And one last question. In
    last year's Military Family Support Programming Survey, 80
    percent of the respondents said their finances were a major
    source of stress, and more than half of military and veteran
    families reported experiencing barriers to savings over the
    previous two years. Twenty-two percent of currently serving
    military families, and 38 percent of Veteran's families have
    less than $500 or no emergency savings at all. I think
    financial literacy is critically important.
        And Mr. Vazirani, in my few seconds that I have left, what
    is DOD doing, right now, to promote financial literacy and
    making sure that it is an integral part of the Transition
    Assistance Program?
        Mr. Vazirani. Senator, one of the things we do is, from the
    very outset, from the time a service member starts in boot
    camp, we make sure they understand what financial readiness
    resources are available to them. We provide education, and
    training, and coaching, and access to personal financial
    counselors throughout their time in service.
        Senator Murray. Okay. And if I can get a more detailed
    response from you, I would really appreciate that.
        Mr. Vazirani. Sure.
        Senator Murray. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

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    DoD Response: The Department considers financial readiness to be an
     integral part of total force readiness and provides comprehensive
     financial literacy training and education to all Service members in
     accordance with section 992 of Title 10, United States Code. Mandatory
     financial literacy training is delivered at various touchpoints
     throughout the military lifecycle as specified in statute, starting at
     the very outset in boot camp and continuing through a Service member's
     point of transition from service. Touchpoint training topics are chosen
     to provide members with the information they need to navigate important
     financial decisions at the point of need in the military lifecycle, as
     well as build the general financial literacy skills they need to
     successfully navigate financial challenges they might encounter
     throughout their lifetimes.

    To fulfill the statutory requirements to deliver financial literacy
     training during transition, all Service members are provided the
     ``Financial Planning for Transition'' course as part of the Transition
     Assistance Program. Specific learning objectives include how to create
     and update a spending plan, debt and credit management, fundamentals of
     income tax and changes to their tax situation, life insurance, survivor
     and dependent benefits, estate planning, emergency savings, how to
     manage their Thrift Savings Plan, TRICARE options and costs, and the
     components of the military retirement system and how to prepare for
     retirement.

    While the transition financial training objectives are designed to be
     relevant to the point of transition, the comprehensive nature of the
     Department's financial literacy education program ensures that
     transition is not the first time that members receive training on these
     important subjects. Over the course of one's service, training covers
     the importance of planning for the future and understanding military
     benefits like the Blended Retirement System (BRS). BRS is taught at
     numerous training touchpoints, such as during initial entry training,
     when vesting in the Thrift Savings Plan, upon entitlement to
     continuation pay, during leadership training, and at other major life
     events in preparation for when one eventually transitions.

    To further support transition and any other life event a Service member
     might encounter, DoD also provides members and their families with
     access to DoD personal financial counselors who can provide
     individualized information that is factual, unbiased, and free from
     conflicts of interest. In addition, DoD's financial readiness outreach
     efforts reinforce training, encourage sound financial behaviors, and
     provide members with the information they need to seek additional
     knowledge and access DoD financial literacy and counseling resources.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

        Chairman Tester. Yes. Senator Cotton.

                            HON. TOM COTTON,
                       U.S. SENATOR FROM ARKANSAS

        Senator Cotton. Mr. Vazirani, I have heard reports that
    former U.S. service members have been approached by communist
    China and offered jobs that draw on their military expertise to
    aid the PLA. This is already happening with some of our
    European partners, veterans, oftentimes through professional
    military companies in third-world countries, like South Africa.
    What steps, if any, has the Department of Defense taken today,
    during the transition process, to ensure that our troops are
    aware of this kind of activity, and adequately prepared to
    resist these offers, especially when done through
    intermediaries?
        Mr. Vazirani. Senator, we continue to be concerned about
    the pacing threat of China, and the approach that they take to
    try and undermine what we are doing. We have provided guidance
    through the military departments on when our service members
    are--there is outreach from mal actors. And Senator, I will be
    happy to get back to you with the specific steps we have taken
    and the guidance we provide.
        Senator Cotton. Yes, could you please get back to me, in
    writing, on those steps, and also what mechanisms, if any, you
    have in place to track these kinds of offers? Because I do
    think it is a growing concern, like I said with our European
    partners, but I worry about reports that it is now occurring in
    the United States as well.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    DoD Response: The Department has focused on outreach to current Service
     members, veterans, and retirees to educate them about foreign actors'
     attempts to recruit former Service members. These education efforts
     include information and training provided to the current force,
     outreach through the VA to veterans, and outreach to retirees through
     the Defense Finance and Accounting Service. Through education about
     foreign actors' practices and intent, we believe current and former
     members will be better prepared to recognize and resist these
     recruitment efforts.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

        I believe that our reserves play a crucial role in the
    Nation's defense by allowing the U.S. to retain critical skills
    and talents in our services while also allowing active-duty
    service members to transition into the reserves; unfortunately,
    like the rest of the active-duty military, the reserves are
    facing historic shortfalls as well. Has the DOD studied
    barriers to transitioning into the reserves from the active
    duty?
        Mr. Vazirani. Senator, that is, as far as addressing
    barriers to transitioning to the reserves, we are looking at
    that. We want to ensure that we--particularly as we continue to
    rely on the reserve component, one of the things we have been
    doing, we brought on our first Chief Talent Management Officer.
    An area that we are looking at is permeability between the
    active and the reserve component and providing that opportunity
    for service members to move from one to the other, active to
    reserve, but also the opportunity to come back into the active
    component.
        Senator Cotton. Okay. In the studies, has the DOD
    identified any specific issues that create challenges for
    transitioning troops who may have gone into the reserves, but
    decided not to?
        Mr. Vazirani. Senator, if I can take that for the record,
    and I will get back to you with the specific findings?

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    DoD Response: TAP counseling, information, and support are force
     multipliers directly supporting Reserve Component affiliation. The
     military services are highly competitive employers of choice, whose
     value and worth becomes increasingly apparent in a fully informed
     transition/reserve component affiliation environment.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

        Senator Cotton. You may. One final and related question;
    obviously, we want to make sure that every man and woman who
    wears the country's uniform, and wants to leave the service is
    set up for success in civilian life, or in the reserves if they
    choose to go there. But I am also curious about barriers to
    remaining--I shouldn't say barriers--drivers to transition when
    troops may have stayed on active duty. So as you are studying
    the challenges that they have in the transition process, have
    you also studied the main issues that are driving their desire
    to separate in the first place?
        Mr. Vazirani. Senator, one of the things that we are seeing
    now is we are seeing actually record levels of retention.
        Senator Cotton. Yes.
        Mr. Vazirani. And so we are benefiting from that, and that
    is certainly helping us in end strength. One of the areas that
    we have talked about during this panel that is a driver for
    service members to get out, is military spouse employment, and
    the opportunity for a service member's military spouse to also
    have a successful career, and also contribute to the family's
    financial readiness.
        So that is an area that we are very--we are working very
    hard on to ensure that military spouses have career
    opportunities to support their service member, particularly as
    we look at our model, which typically requires the service
    member to move every two to three years.
        Senator Cotton. Okay. Thank you.
        Chairman Tester. Senator Peters.

                          HON. GARY C. PETERS,
                       U.S. SENATOR FROM MICHIGAN

        Senator Peters. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And thank you to
    our witnesses here today. Thank you for your work in this area.
    I think we can all agree that it is critical that our veterans
    have the support they need as they transition into civilian
    life.
        Which is why it has been a priority of mine, to introduce
    legislation that was signed into law to help veterans who may
    have been wrongly given a less than honorable discharge from
    the military as a result of PTSD and TBI that was simply not
    diagnosed; they exhibited behaviors that led to a less than
    honorable discharge, and yet those behaviors were a result of
    PTSD and traumatic brain injury.
        That is why my bill, which was signed into law in 2016,
    allows for service members, who have been diagnosed with PTSD,
    or TBI, or other related conditions in connection with their
    service in the military, they can more easily petition to
    upgrade their status.
        We know whether a veteran is entitled to VA benefits
    depends largely on the discharge status that is assigned to
    them. And VA benefits play an absolutely critical role in the
    successful transition to civilian life. It remains a key
    priority of mine that the Discharge Review Boards continue to
    take these types of mental traumas into account when they are
    reviewing these petitions. And to that end, this year's NDAA
    included a provision that I authored, calling on the GAO to
    complete a review of the Discharge Review Board's
    implementation of the legislation.
        But in order for veterans to access their newly earned
    benefits through an upgrade, they first need to be made aware
    of the opportunity to petition. That as they are suffering from
    the trauma of PTSD and other mental traumas, they don't need to
    do that in silence; they can seek out help, but they need to be
    aware that it exists.
        So Under Secretary Vazirani, and Under Secretary Jacobs,
    could you each describe what your agencies are doing to ensure
    those leaving or have already left military service are aware
    of the opportunities to petition a Discharge Review Board for
    an upgrade? And my second question to each of you is, are there
    opportunities or additional ways to communicate this option,
    perhaps through the Transition Assistance Program? Whoever
    would like to go first?
        Mr. Vazirani. Senator, first of all, I appreciate the
    efforts that you have made to ensure that service members and
    veterans receive the benefits that they are entitled to.
        We have been working with the military departments to
    ensure that service members who have been discharged and want
    to seek a change or correction to their record, or a
    characterization of discharge are aware of those vehicles. Each
    military department maintains their own website that provides
    information about the discharge review process and the Boards
    of Correction. We, in P&R, also maintain a site, and then we
    work jointly with DOD--excuse me--with VA, to maintain a
    website that outlines, and has an online tool that will take an
    individual through the different steps based on questions of
    what they are trying to change and how to get to the right
    resource. And so we are working with the VA on that.
        At this point, I will turn to Mr. Jacobs.
        Senator Peters. Thank you.
        Mr. Jacobs. Yes, Senator, thanks for your leadership on
    this issue. We know that veterans with an OTH discharge may be
    at higher risk for adverse outcomes, so we are actively working
    to increase our engagement and outreach, thanks in large part
    to Mr. Boerstler, who has worked to create a journey map
    leveraging human-centered design to understand where the pain
    points and the opportunities are for us. And so we are using
    those insights.
        We have had a couple of symposiums within the interagency
    where we can look at the full life cycle, but also with
    veterans who have OTH discharges to understand where there are
    challenges and where we can make improvements. And finally,
    what I would say is, we are working on a regulation. We have
    issued draft regulations, and we are hoping to finalize that
    that might address some of these issues.
        Senator Peters. Well, I look forward to continuing to work
    with you.
        Mr. Vazirani. Senator, if I may?
        Senator Peters. Yes, please.
        Mr. Vazirani. One of the things you asked, your second
    question was what are we doing--what else will we do?
        Senator Peters. Right, proactively.
        Mr. Vazirani. Yes, proactively. So what we are doing is we
    are creating resources through our Military OneSource program
    to tape webinars that will outline the steps that a service
    member would take. We are also developing a learning tool
    online that service members--and those will be resources that
    service members will be exposed to during the TAP process.
        Senator Peters. Good. Great. Thank you.
        Mr. Boerstler. And Senator, I would just like to add that
    VA's Solid Start, our outbound call program, contacts every
    single veteran, regardless of discharge type, to ensure that
    they are equipped with the resources they need.
        Senator Peters. Okay. Great. Thank you.
        Chairman Tester. Senator Ernst.

                            HON. JONI ERNST,
                         U.S. SENATOR FROM IOWA

        Senator Ernst. Yes, thank you, Mr. Chair. And thanks to all
    of our witnesses who are here today for your testimony. We all
    know, and as you will witness from a lot of the comments today,
    that leaving the service is very complex, and it can be
    complicated at times, and I do believe we all need to do our
    best for our country's best. And that means supporting all
    transitioning service members to be successful.
        Many years ago, when I was a young woman, I actually was
    part of the Army Career and Alumni Program, the old ACAP
    program, and worked at the Job Assistance Center. So one of my
    roles was educating members that were leaving the service on
    job employment, how to write resumes, fill out job
    applications. So I truly appreciated and enjoyed the time that
    I had at Fort Benning working with those service members that
    were separating. But I know that there is a lot more that we
    need to do. So part of this, beyond all the employment
    assistance, part of it is mental health education, resource
    education.
        And so Mr. Vazirani, the first year after discharge is
    always, I think, the most difficult for those transitioning
    members. And it comes with that increased risk of suicide. I
    know my colleague, Senator Hassan, had mentioned the Buddy
    Check Program. I was glad to partner with her on that effort.
    But getting transitioning service members connected to the
    post-service benefits and resources they need as quickly as
    possible really has the potential to lower the risk of suicide.
        So to what extent does the Transition Assistance Program
    provide service members other resources? Again, beyond the
    employment, and beyond education resources, we want to focus on
    those resources specifically for mental health; what does that
    provide?
        Mr. Vazirani. Senator, so through the Transition Assistance
    Program, we do also want to ensure that the service member has
    a successful transition, and so through that assessment
    process, as we look across those different domains, we try and
    understand where a service member may be at risk, whether it is
    at risk of homelessness, whether it is at risk because of
    mental health issues, whether it is at risk because of spouse
    employment. So we try and tailor the program to that service
    member.
        I think another area that we have worked very closely
    through the Joint Executive Council and in our interagency
    partnership is the Benefits Delivery at Discharge, and we have
    made that process electronic, where we are sharing information
    with the VA now. A service member now can make that application
    for benefits between 180 days and 90 days in advance of
    separation, so that when they separate they will have that
    benefit statement, and they will get that payment earlier on.
    So that is an area that we have been collaborating with the VA
    on. And I will turn to Mr. Jacobs again.
        Senator Ernst. Certainly.
        Mr. Jacobs. And Senator, I have the benefit, the
    participant's guide that all transitioning service members get
    when they attend the VA's 1-day TAP class, that includes an
    overview that transitioning service members actually write and
    try to tailor to their particular needs. It includes
    opportunities for follow-up.
        Senator Ernst. That is good.
        Mr. Jacobs. We also have benefits advisers where we can
    make that warm handoff, and other staff who are there to help
    with some of the more personal questions that they may not feel
    comfortable asking in a broader group.
        Senator Ernst. Okay. Well, I truly appreciate that, because
    I know back when I was working in that area, there was a lot of
    work to be done. But I appreciate you closing up that gap. One
    of the other areas is, of course, on help with filing
    disability claims. I could go on and on, but is there a way
    that those VA contract employees who are teaching that VA
    curriculum at TAP, are they allowed, legally, to assist with VA
    claims? And what would be some resources or ways that we could
    assist there?
        Mr. Jacobs. Yes, no, thanks. One of the ways that we are
    working to provide more assistance to help with the filing of
    claims is through the upgrades to our TAP 6.0 curriculum, which
    is going to launch in January. And through that change, we are
    going to add at the end of every day, between 45 and 60
    minutes, for accredited VSOs, as well as State Departments of
    Veterans Affairs, to come in and speak directly to
    transitioning service members and their families.
        And that is important for a couple of reasons. One is to
    the point that you just said, there is a lot of information. We
    are compressing 200 pages into a day. And so there are going to
    be follow-up questions, and those VSOs and State Departments of
    VA can help in the following days, weeks, and months, either
    directly or through a warm handoff to us.
        Two, there is a growing risk of predatory actors trying to
    target veterans to get their earned benefits. They are charging
    money for things that our accredited VSO partners and their
    state governments are doing for free and very well. And so by
    creating that touchpoint at the end of every TAP class that VA
    offers, we are creating that warm connection and helping build
    relationships that, hopefully, can be helpful later on.
        Senator Ernst. Thank you. And to our Chairs, thank you so
    much for the time today. And thank you to our witnesses.
        Chairman Tester. Senator Kelly has deferred to Senator
    Sinema.

                          HON. KYRSTEN SINEMA,
                       U.S. SENATOR FROM ARIZONA

        Senator Sinema. Thank you, Chairman. And thank you, Senator
    Kelly. Thank you for holding this hearing today and thank you
    to our witnesses for being here today. This is an exciting
    chance to unify our active-duty priorities and VA priorities to
    address important concerns and to strengthen the process all
    service members go through when transitioning to civilian life.
        Arizona has five active-duty military bases and over 20,000
    service members that will someday, we hope, join the almost
    half-a-million veterans already living in Arizona. We are proud
    that so many veterans call our state home, and want Arizona to
    continue to be an attractive place to settle in civilian life.
    When transitioning out of military service, it is not enough
    just to have resources out there, but our veterans need to be
    made aware of all the programs that exist.
        The Transition Assistance Program is often criticized for
    being too brief and not giving veterans time to retain the
    information provided. When losing the group safety net of the
    military, our veterans need to be set up to pursue a fulfilling
    career after their service. Arizona veterans tell me that,
    while the military has given them an invaluable skill set, it
    can be difficult to transfer those skills into the civilian
    workforce without career guidance from people that understand
    their unique circumstances.
        So my first question is about the Sergeant Daniel Somers
    Veterans Network of Support legislation. We were proud to pass
    that into law. In fact, Congress had to pass it twice, once
    each for the DOD and for the VA. Together, these bills
    established a program where transitioning service members
    identify loved ones who will receive updates from the DOD and
    VA, respectively, to help them be better informed during the
    transition process.
        Can you provide me with an update on our pilot from the law
    I wrote, and any lessons that we have learned from the process?
        Mr. Vazirani. So Senator, thank you for that legislation
    and giving us the opportunity to connect to those family
    members. I will have to get back to you with--for the record on
    the results of the pilot at this stage.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    DoD Response: We are happy to provide an update. The Department of
     Defense Military Community and Family Policy (MC&FP) office and the
     American Red Cross began collaboration in March 2020, resulting in a
     signed Memorandum of Agreement in December 2020. In December 2020, the
     pilot landing page was deployed on the Military OneSource website. In
     January of 2021, the American Red Cross (ARC) began conducting outreach
     and engagement in three ARC regions including New Jersey, the Texas
     Gulf Coast (Houston area), and Arizona/New Mexico. The first ``Friends
     & Family Connection'' eNewsletter was distributed under the pilot that
     same month.

    From its inception in December 2020, the Friends & Family Connection
     Network of Support pilot landing page gained 203 subscribers by the end
     of August 2023. In July 2023, the Network of Support Pilot Survey,
     scheduled to run for four weeks, was released. In August 2023, an
     reminder was sent to complete the survey. On August 28, 2023, the
     survey closed with only 20 participants having responded. We are
     currently consolidating the data and preparing information for a
     pending report due to Congress.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

        Mr. Jacobs. And I would just add, you know, personally I
    know my wife helps make sure that I get to my annual physical,
    that I do all the things, and I know that is a big source of
    support for many transitioning service members, particularly
    given the breadth, the depth, the scope of the information that
    is being provided. So continuing to encourage spouses is really
    important to attend. But we are also mindful that sometimes
    they just can't make it during the day so--or while they are
    actually still in uniform; so some of the off-based training
    that DOL provides is also a really great resource, and then
    continuing to follow up in the first year after they transition
    to try to connect those dots as well.
        Senator Sinema. Thank you. I would like to follow up with
    each of the Departments on more detailed information about the
    success or challenges that the pilot is experiencing. As
    mentioned in previous testimony, transition from the military
    can take a lifetime. In last Congress, we passed my bill to
    Reduce Unemployment for Veterans of All Ages Act. That lifted
    the arbitrary 12-year time limit on VA's vocational rehab and
    employment, for VR&E Program for veterans with service-
    connected disabilities.
        Can you provide an update on the VR&E Program, specifically
    any details on how it is being used by older generations of
    veterans?
        Mr. Jacobs. Yes, Senator, I would have to get back to you
    for the record with more details, but what I would say is we
    have seen an increased demand for VR&E services, particularly
    in the aftermath of the PACT Act. It is one of our most
    impactful programs that we provide tailored to the individual
    needs, and it helps many more veterans as they are figuring out
    how to transition in their career goals. And so I would be
    happy to follow up with you or your staff in addition to in
    writing.
        Senator Sinema. Thank you. I appreciate that. Another
    benefit for transitioning service members is the SkillBridge
    Program which has a great deal of support from industry
    partners at home in Arizona, but once service members become
    aware of this program it is often too late for them to
    participate. How can you better spread awareness and encourage
    participation?
        Mr. Vazirani. Senator, thank you. We also believe that the
    SkillBridge Program is a very effective program. One of the
    things that we are doing is, in the transition counseling
    process is making sure that the service members are aware of
    SkillBridge as a transition program, we are also ensuring that
    commanders are aware of the benefits of the program to ensuring
    the success of the transition of that service member, so they
    get those experiences working with companies, and/or
    nonprofits, or state agencies in order to put their skills to
    use and understand how they may be able to apply those when
    they do transition to becoming a civilian.
        Senator Sinema. Thank you, Chairman.
        Chairman Tester. Back to back Arizona; Senator Kelly.

                            HON. MARK KELLY,
                       U.S. SENATOR FROM ARIZONA

        Senator Kelly. Thank you Mr. Chairman, and thank you
    Chairman Reed as well, and Ranking Member Wicker, and Ranking
    Member Moran, for holding this very critical joint hearing on
    the Military to Civilian Transition.
        As a Navy veteran myself I know how critical and how
    crucial support of our Nation's service members and their
    families is to ensuring their continued success after their
    service to our country. An Army survey of young adults aged 18
    to 28 found that nearly 21 percent believe that joining the
    military--and this surprised me--joining the military puts
    their lives on hold. This perception could not be further from
    the truth.
        I am a veteran who took, you know, my time in service in
    the U.S. Navy, you know, started with training to be a pilot,
    and then I was a combat pilot. And then after that I earned a
    Master's Degree in Engineering, and then went to school to
    become a test pilot, did that job for a while, and later had
    the opportunity to serve at NASA as an astronaut. I wasn't
    putting my life on hold.
        You know, we need to be sharing the message about the
    incredible honor it is to serve, and just the--but I would also
    like--that it is a great job because of the challenges, because
    of the travel benefits, the teamwork, the camaraderie, but also
    the focus on a mission, and how great it is to have the
    opportunity to serve your country. And we need to do that work
    by providing support for our service members as they
    transition, as well as into their transition from military to
    civilian life.
        So thank you to all the witnesses for being here, and for
    your work to support the success of our Nation's service
    members, and veterans, and their families. And I know that a
    successful transition often requires a lot of time, and it
    requires planning, and it requires conversations with family.
    Service members need support to think about professional
    development from an early point in their military careers,
    whether that development will occur in their service to our
    country, or whether it will be later in civilian life.
        And by beginning these conversations early on we are
    setting our service members and military families up for
    success. So I commend DOD for significantly increasing
    participation in DOD's Transition Assistance Program. And I
    know that DOD can do better, and can do better early on.
        So Secretary Vazirani, and Mr. Sawyer, how can each service
    further improve their career and professional development
    programming to support earlier integration in a service
    member's career?
        Mr. Vazirani. Senator thank you for your comments, and I
    agree with you wholeheartedly that military service is a
    powerful way for Americans to set themselves apart while in
    service and beyond their service. As far as starting earlier, a
    number of the programs that we have that are not--that are
    aligned with but not specifically associated with transition,
    for example, the Tuition Assistance Program, help service
    members develop--either earn degrees, or develop credentials,
    certifications that will help them in their military service,
    or beyond their military service.
        The other things that we do are helping service members to
    translate the work that they do into what could be a civilian
    career when they decide to transition, and that is through our
    credentialing program. We help service members achieve
    credentials and we also help them translate the work that they
    do through their MOS into career opportunities understanding
    where they can apply those credentials.
        Senator Kelly. And Mr. Sawyer, what else--in the remaining
    few seconds I have--how can Congress help you with this in
    improving this process?
        Mr. Sawyer. And thank you for that. The continued oversight
    that you are providing and I believe holding DOD and the
    agencies accountable for implementing the recommendations that
    we have given to them in this area. Awareness, ensuring that
    service members are becoming aware of the timeliness and 2-day
    class requirements, is another area that could be helpful. And
    for the Department we have issued recommendations asking them
    to develop performance goals with these programs and to
    evaluate those programs to ensure that objectives are being
    achieved.
        Senator Kelly. Well, thank you both. And I think it is so
    important that we continue to get the message out that serving
    in the U.S. Military is not putting your life on hold. Thank
    you.
        Chairman Tester. Senator Sullivan.

                           HON. DAN SULLIVAN,
                        U.S. SENATOR FROM ALASKA

        Senator Sullivan. Thank you Mr. Chairman. And gentlemen,
    thank you for being here. I think this is a really important
    hearing because we all know this is a win-win proposition for
    everybody, employers, our country needs hard workers, our
    members of the military, their families to be able to come off
    active duty and go into a good-paying job, and then to have a
    workforce where the men and women that you hire know what it is
    like to have discipline and get up at 0500, or 0400, or
    whatever, and be on time, I mean this is a win all over the
    place.
        So I want to ask a specific question. I had a provision
    that was in last year's NDAA that encouraged DOD to partner
    with local employers, local unions, the building trades in
    Alaska, in particular, hire a lot of members coming out of the
    military. And what I have seen is that a lot of times it is
    really base-commander-specific. Meaning, a base commander at
    JBER might be like: Yes, let us bring the unions and employers
    on base, our guys can start doing transition stuff early
    before, you know--one day before they get out. And then you
    have a new commander, and all that goes away.
        So what my NDAA provision was to try to get DOD to focus
    on, kind of from a broad perspective, let us do that across the
    board. And can I get an update from any of you on where DOD has
    been with regard to working with these groups that hire? Like I
    said, local unions, a lot of them have a really good program,
    the IBEW, for example, has a really good program in Alaska, in
    contractors, in the construction trades. If you have an update
    on that I would love to hear about it, but you might recall
    this provision.
        And then I do want to--maybe I will just ask the second
    question next. It follows up on Senator Kelly's question about
    credentialing, and the one area in particular that I think is
    really important is the maritime industry. You might remember
    President Trump signed an Executive order that would make it
    easier for transitioning military members in the maritime space
    to waive licenses, in allowing their experience to count toward
    Merchant Mariner credentialing, and other credentials. But
    again, these are super well trained, ready to go, and sometimes
    we make it hard, a lot of times we make it hard.
        So two questions I will throw it out to any and all the
    witnesses, but if you can take that first one first, and then
    the one on credentialing following up on Senator Kelly's
    question. Thank you.
        Mr. Vazirani. Senator, so we continue to work with
    employers, and try and expand the engagement with employers, to
    help transitioning veterans. So we continue to grow the
    SkillBridge Program.
        Senator Sullivan. Yes. The SkillBridge program is great by
    the way and I think it--do you think it is going well?
        Mr. Vazirani. Senator, we do believe it is going well. We
    have had over 22,000 participants in the SkillBridge Program
    last year.
        Senator Sullivan. Great.
        Mr. Vazirani. A high percentage of those participants
    convert to full-time employee with their SkillBridge
    internship. We are replicating that program for military
    spouses, with the Military Spouse Career Accelerator Program,
    providing them with a 12-week fellowship, so that they can gain
    that. And we are seeing an 80 percent conversion there as well.
        Senator Sullivan. Do you agree with me it is a little bit
    base-commander dependent? And we could do a better job of kind
    of making sure everybody is on board with this, or is that just
    something I am seeing back home in Alaska?
        Mr. Vazirani. Senator, I do believe that there are areas of
    the country where, particularly for service members who want to
    stay in the place they want to retire from the locations they
    are in, that we can probably do a better job engaging at the
    local level, and local employers.
        Senator Sullivan. Yes.
        Mr. Vazirani. And so Senator, that is something that I will
    take back. I would love to work with you and your team----
        Senator Sullivan. Great.
        Mr. Vazirani [continuing]. To figure out how do we drive
    more local engagement at across the enterprise with
    consistency.
        Senator Sullivan. Yes. That is really important. That is
    what my NDAA provision from last year was about. And then real
    quick on credentialing, anyone who wants to take that one on? I
    know it is a big topic, but it has got so much promise.
        Mr. Vazirani. Senator, there we continue to focus on our
    credentialing program. We provide a tool that will allow
    service members to gain their credential, and a tool also as
    well to figure out how to----
        Senator Sullivan. When they are still on active duty?
        Mr. Vazirani. While they are still on active duty----
        Senator Sullivan. Oh. Good.
        Mr. Vazirani [continuing]. To earn their credentials. And
    then we engage with the Department of Labor through the U.S.
    Military Apprenticeship Program, and service members can gain a
    Department of Labor Journeyman Certificate, and we have over
    93,000 participants in that program. And Mr. Rodriguez may want
    to comment.
        Mr. Rodriguez. Thank you, Mr. Vazirani. Senator, I just
    wanted to add that I spent a week in Alaska, and I visited the
    Commanders at JBER. If you recall, during my confirmation
    hearing, and you asked me to go to Alaska, so we spent the week
    there.
        Senator Sullivan. Thank you.
        Mr. Rodriguez. I met with the commanders. They said exactly
    what you did: They wanted connections to the local community.
    We had our state director come; we actually went to the
    American Job Center there at the local level to ensure that
    they were connected. And we spoke to the Electric Workers Union
    out there, IBEW. I visited them as well.
        Senator Sullivan. Good.
        Mr. Rodriguez. So there is a strong relationship at the
    local community with the commanders, but as you mentioned, that
    often changes when the commander does change--they have a
    change of command, but the resources are there at the local
    levels. We have to ensure that they understand that those
    resources exist and make sure that we are continually
    connecting with the incoming commanders as well.
        Senator Sullivan. Great. Thank you. Thank you, Mr.
    Chairman.
        Chairman Tester. Senator Blumenthal.

                        HON. RICHARD BLUMENTHAL,
                     U.S. SENATOR FROM CONNECTICUT

        Senator Blumenthal. Thanks, Mr. Chairman. As I go around
    the State of Connecticut, and I am sure my colleagues have the
    same experience, what I find is, again and again, small- and
    medium-sized businesses saying to me: We need people with
    skills, particularly in manufacturing. Every year, I guess the
    estimate is 200,000 service members transition back to civilian
    life, that is a potential pool of skilled labor that right now,
    I am guessing, is only partially used for manufacturing,
    particularly by those small- and medium-sized businesses.
        A Government Accountability Office released a January 2023
    Report that urged the VA to collaborate with Veterans Service
    Organizations in identifying outreach gaps. The combination of
    VSOs and small businesses, I think, offer a real opportunity
    for apprenticeship, on-the-job training, perhaps even skills
    provided while on active duty in anticipation of potential jobs
    outside.
        The military is one of the great educational forces, if not
    the greatest in America today, in terms of its resources and
    the numbers of people that it involves. So I would like to ask
    this panel what your ideas are for enhancing the skill training
    and job placement in manufacturing, or small- and medium-sized
    businesses around the country?
        Mr. Rodriguez. Senator, I will take this question. First, I
    just visited an advanced manufacturing company, Rockwell
    Technologies, in Wisconsin, and their premise was they cannot
    hire enough veterans. They want to get more veterans into
    advanced manufacturing, so they are working across the veteran
    community to make sure that they are aware of these types of
    resources exist for training. Apprenticeship programs we know
    are extremely valuable, $80,000 starting salary when someone
    completes an apprenticeship program, and a 90-percent hire rate
    post-apprenticeship.
        So through our regional veteran employment coordinators
    located across the entire country, we are connecting
    corporations and veterans across the entire country to these
    types of opportunities. And we do this in conjunction with the
    SkillBridge Program. As they are working on SkillBridge, when
    they do get the opportunity to participate in DOD, for those
    who don't get to participate in it, we have opportunities that
    we are working to solidify with companies across the entire
    country.
        Also, as part of Task Force Movement, which I sit on that
    organization's structure there, we are looking at, again, how
    do we align manufacturing organizations to locate this talent
    and make sure that they are connected with these opportunities
    that exist?
        Mr. Boerstler. And Senator, I would add as well, in
    partnership with the Department of Labor and Department of
    Defense, we send a weekly email called ``Vet Resources'' to
    about 14 million subscribers, veterans and their families
    across the country. That includes links to jobs that are
    routinely updated, sometimes daily, when we connect with the
    corporate sector, the commercial sector, to cull these jobs.
        And more importantly, I think the jointness that we, you
    know, continue to share these resources with our veterans and
    their families, through that channel, and many others, is a
    great way to connect the dots between the commercial sector and
    our veterans.
        Mr. Vazirani. Senator, the other thing I will add, is in
    the TAP program, in the tailored instruction in the 2-day
    courses, there is a 2-day course delivered by the Small
    Business Administration that can help service members
    transitioning explore opportunities in small business, either
    as an entrepreneur or working in a small business.
        Senator Blumenthal. Thank you all. Thank you for your
    service. And I hope, perhaps, the next panel will address this
    question as well because I think the Veterans Service
    Organizations can play an important role in this challenge.
        Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Chairman Tester. Senator Tillis.

                           HON. THOM TILLIS,
                    U.S. SENATOR FROM NORTH CAROLINA

        Senator Tillis. Thank you, Chair Tester. And thank you,
    gentlemen, for being here. A couple of questions; I was in here
    earlier, and one thing that I am curious about is, to what
    extent does the TAP program emphasize and ensure that we get a
    connection with the VA upon separation?
        Mr. Vazirani. Senator, so in the TAP program, one of the
    specific core courses is a session that is led by the VA, so
    that is----
        Senator Tillis. Yes. But I mean, we are leading them to
    water, but we know if you take a look at the number of suicides
    that occur, on average, about two-thirds of the people who
    commit suicide every day are not connected to the VA. So I know
    that there is--it is obviously a natural transition because it
    is a discussion about benefits and everything else, but to what
    extent does the TAP program remain focused on, not only leading
    them to water, but actually enrolling and becoming connected?
    And I would be also curious, Mr. Sawyer, if you have any
    observations on that.
        Mr. Vazirani. Senator, I will comment just briefly on the
    particular piece that you mentioned about suicide and suicide
    prevention. So through that transition process, we conduct a
    mental health assessment. There is also a single--we are
    working on this, a single health assessment with the VA, so
    that if we identify that a service member may be at risk, or
    has been treated for mental health, then they are referred into
    the inTransition Program, and then that information is shared
    with the VA. So we start that process early, and we are very
    focused on ensuring that there is continuity of care so that in
    that transition period, the 365 days following----
        Senator Tillis. Okay. Mr. Jacobs, do you have anything to
    add? I am going to go fast, because I have got one other point
    I want to make related to it.
        Mr. Jacobs. We think there is a moral imperative to connect
    veterans to their earned benefits and health care, because it
    is exactly to your point. When veterans utilize their earned
    benefits in health care, they do better, and it is not only in
    terms of reduced suicide rates, but it is better health
    outcomes, better economic opportunities.
        So we have a 1-day TAP course. One of the ways that we are
    enhancing it is by including our VSO, accredited VSO, and State
    Department of Veterans Affairs partners, and that is important
    because, you know, this is 200 pages of information about VA
    benefits and health care. It is a lot to digest in one day.
        Senator Tillis. And most people aren't going to.
        Mr. Jacobs. They are going to come back with more
    questions. And our VSO partners and state partners can help
    them as one more fact.
        Senator Tillis. Okay. Mr. Sawyer, you have something to
    add, briefly?
        Mr. Sawyer. Thank you. I would just like to add that GAO
    does have ongoing work that is looking at mental health and
    suicide prevention for transitioning service members, as well
    as the warm handover process, and we would love to meet with
    you to----
        Senator Tillis. I am going to make sure I stay within time.
    But I did want to go back to something that Chair Reed
    mentioned about the electronic health record, I have been
    following. I was on Senate Armed Services until last Congress
    following the electronic health record implementation. DOD,
    good on you all for getting it done. We have got to get it done
    in the VA. It is a long way from being done.
        Until those two platforms are completely implemented, we
    probably need some duct tape and baling wire to get data that
    we can use to better predict--and better predict what we should
    be trying--I have said in this Committee before: It will be
    great when we have a TAP audience of one. We are not there yet.
    But one of the ways that we can get there is through predictive
    analytics. And one thing that came to my mind is whether or not
    we should take a look at information that we had in the
    electronic health record for the service member and see if we
    could use predictive analytics to say that this person could be
    in crisis, and sadly, correlate that using historic records.
    Sadly, probably correlate that to this veterans' population who
    has committed suicide.
        And then if you start thinking: If there is a statistical
    correlation there, then that should begin to be something that
    is very, very much embedded in future TAP programs. My time has
    expired. Thank you.
        Chairman Reed. Thank you, Senator Tillis. And on behalf of
    Senator Tester, let me recognize Senator Hirono.

                         HON. MAZIE K. HIRONO,
                        U.S. SENATOR FROM HAWAII

        Senator Hirono. I thank both Chairs for this hearing, as I
    sit on both Committees. This is for Secretary Vazirani and
    Secretary Jacobs, since I have both of you here. There is a
    huge issue on Oahu in which veterans are having difficulty
    accessing critical health care services at the Matsunaga CBOC,
    which is located at Tripler Army Medical Center.
        Can you both look into what DOD and VA can do to make it
    easier for veterans to get on base for care and report back to
    the Committees and my staff? I think this should be, I hope, a
    pretty easy fix, because what is happening is when our veterans
    try to get on base, they have their VA card, VA ID cards, and
    apparently that is not adequate to get on base. And they are
    supposed to have a DOD-compliant ID. So can both of you figure
    this out, and make it easier for veterans to get the care that
    they need from the Matsunaga CBOC?
        Mr. Vazirani. Senator, we are certainly committed to taking
    care of people, and beyond the transition point as well. We are
    working through the Joint Executive Council on access to bases
    for veterans. We are working through a common ID, to develop a
    common ID that can be utilized. And I certainly commit to
    getting back to you on a solution.
        Senator Hirono. Why can't the VA, why can't they just use
    their VA ID? Anyway, that is an idea. Rather than requiring
    them to go get a whole another ID.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    DoD Response: The DoD does accept the Veteran Health Identification Card
     (VHIC) as a valid VA credential for accessing military installation.
     This credential is specifically identified in DoD Manual 5200.08,
     Volume 3. As of September 30, 2022, approximately 176,000 VHIC were
     enrolled for recurring installation access, an increase of
     approximately 56,000 since September 30, 2021. To further enhance
     access to military installations, the VA-DoD Joint Executive Committee
     has directed the establishment of a data transfer from the VA to the
     DoD that identifies all VA Service-Connected Disabled (SCD) Veterans,
     recipients of the Purple Heart, former Prisoners of War, and all
     enrolled VA caregivers. Once this data transfer is established (June
     2024), Veterans and VA enrolled caregivers will be able to utilize a
     REAL ID complaint driver's license along with the behind-the-scenes
     data transfer to establish eligibility to access the installation for
     medical appointments, visit the commissary, or use of eligible Morale,
     Welfare and Recreation facilities. The VHIC will still be a valid
     credential.

    There are three things required to access an installation: IDENTITY,
     PURPOSE, and FITNESS. More often than not, an installation access issue
     has to do with the Veteran (or their caregiver) unable to establish
     FITNESS. That is, they have been flagged for relevant criminal arrest
     information that prohibits access to the installation, during their
     background check at a Military Visitor Information Center. A second
     common access issue is that the VA facility failed to provide an update
     to the medical appointment roster provided to the DoD, and therefore
     the Veteran is unable to establish PURPOSE. However, a call to the VA
     facility can more often than not address this issue. Generally, the
     installation and the medical facility can work through the PURPOSE
     issue. Finally, VA reports issues of base access up their chain of
     command. Those issues identified as being based on DoD policy are
     transferred to the DoD. In the last six months VA has only reported two
     instances as a result of DoD policy (one in Alaska and one in Florida).
     As a result, the DoD coordinates directly with the installation to
     correct the deficiency.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

        Next question for Mr. Jacobs; regarding the Solid Start
    Program; does VA track--during which stage of Solid Start
    veterans stop responding to outreach? The idea is that, at
    certain specific time frames, the 200,000 veterans a year are
    supposed to be contacted within 90 days, 180 days, and 360
    days. Do you keep data on when they stop responding?
        And I would also like to know what are the questions that
    they are asked? Because this program is supposed to be a check-
    in to help address concerns, connect the VA with resources. So
    do they get asked things like; whether they have experienced
    sexual assault during their time in service, whether they
    exhibit suicide ideation? What kinds of questions are asked of
    the VAs as you make these contacts?
        Mr. Jacobs. Yes. Thanks, Senator, for that question. So
    through our Solid Start Program, we contact transitioning--
    recently transitioned veterans at three points in the one-year
    after they have left the military. It is usually around the 90,
    180, and 365-day mark. In some cases, we can connect with those
    veterans quite easily. We send an email in advance, making sure
    that they know, because many veterans don't answer--many
    Americans don't answer phone calls from numbers they don't know
    about. We call at each increment seven times. So if we don't--
    if we are not able to successfully contact them, we move on.
    But then we continue to try to contact.
        And the goal here is really personalized, individual
    attention. So it is really focused on, one, making sure that if
    there is a mental health crisis, that we can help them. But
    two, it is making sure that we are connecting them to the
    benefits and the care that they need, whether it is an update
    on their status--the status of their----
        Senator Hirono. So I know what the purpose is of Solid
    Start.
        Mr. Jacobs. Yes. Yes.
        Senator Hirono. But is there a time frame in which the
    veterans stop responding to contacts within this one-year time
    frame?
        Mr. Jacobs. We have been able to connect with about 75 to
    80 percent of veterans through the Solid Start. But I would
    have to get back to you with more specific data.
        Senator Hirono. Isn't there a standard list of questions
    that the contactor is asking so that they can ascertain whether
    services need to be--so they can be connected with services?
    Can you send me those questions?
        Mr. Jacobs. I would be happy to follow up. And we do also
    try to make sure that it is open-ended so that we are--it is
    not overly prescriptive, but we can get back with some more
    detailed information on that.
        Senator Hirono. Thank you. My time is running out, but I
    did have one question, Mr. Chairman; both Chairs, if I can ask
    about SkillBridge.
        Chairman Tester. For the record.
        Senator Hirono. I think--oh, shoot. You are not going to
    let me ask the question.
        Chairman Tester. I can't do it. We have got another panel.
        Senator Hirono. Okay. Sorry about that. I will submit the
    question.
        Chairman Tester. Senator Blackburn.

                         HON. MARSHA BLACKBURN,
                      U.S. SENATOR FROM TENNESSEE

        Senator Blackburn. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you
    all for being with us. I think we all have plenty of questions.
    I want to stay with that Solid Start Program, Mr. Jacobs, if we
    can do that. So I want to be sure that I am following you on
    this. The veterans are contacted by phone call 90, 180, and 365
    days into the program; is that accurate?
        Mr. Jacobs. Yes, Senator.
        Senator Blackburn. Okay. And then you confirm that they
    have received a mental health evaluation in the last year of
    their service?
        Mr. Jacobs. No.
        Senator Blackburn. Oh. Okay.
        Mr. Jacobs. So the goal is to try to identify, I think the
    reason that the program was stood up in 2019 was recognizing
    the first year post-transition is a high risk for some
    veterans.
        Senator Blackburn. Okay. So then--I want to confirm that I
    heard this right, too. So the VA, through the VA Solid Start
    Program, the VA receives information that is shared from DOD to
    VA?
        Mr. Jacobs. Yes, Senator?
        Senator Blackburn. Okay. And that is what you use to
    ascertain veterans that are eligible for these mental health
    services, right?
        Mr. Jacobs. Yes. So the----
        Senator Blackburn. Okay. All right. Let me move on then. So
    these veterans are deemed a priority, correct?
        Mr. Jacobs. We do receive information for high priority.
        Senator Blackburn. Okay. So they are automatically enrolled
    in the VA system, and they have their profiles flagged for
    licensed professional mental health counselors so that they can
    start that dialogue; is that accurate?
        Mr. Jacobs. No. They are not automatically enrolled. They
    have to enroll at their own discretion.
        Senator Blackburn. They have to enroll. So what is the wait
    time to enroll?
        Mr. Jacobs. I would have to get that for the record.
        Senator Blackburn. Okay. So I will submit that in writing.
    Now, one of the things of interest to me is, if you have got
    all this data and you are transferring it from DOD to VA, why
    would an individual have to wait weeks to get their
    information? I have got several veterans that are a part of our
    team back in Tennessee and here in DC, and it makes no sense
    that one of our team members had to wait 14 weeks to get their
    medical documents from the DOD, and then had to wait for VA to
    schedule appointments. So if you are doing it for one sector,
    it seems like you could kind of clean up the system and do it
    across the board.
        Mr. Jacobs. Senator, I would like to get the information on
    the individual team member so that we can personally address
    that, and also correct it----
        Senator Blackburn. Well, I think, writ large, just the fact
    that people have to wait so long to get their information, then
    they have got to wait again----
        Mr. Jacobs. Yes.
        Senator Blackburn [continuing]. To get an appointment.
    Going to the TAP program, we have had a lot of fun looking at
    this with you all, into the TAP program. I had some comments
    that I am going to take my time to read, these come from
    different members of our team. I would like to note that TAP--
    let us see: He wished he went back to take advantage of the
    program more and appreciated the classes offered, but he had
    managed a $180 million budget, and felt like this program was
    one-size-fits-all, and he had to go back and take the class on
    budget.
        So these need to be personalized more. Here are some more
    comments, ``Some of the contractors that work there have never
    successfully transitioned, themselves. The contractor teaching
    my class how to get a DC and V-suite job in the corporate
    world.'' He was a retired E6 that got his job teaching our
    class right out of his retirement. So he had no experience;
    ``Wasting days teaching me, a 20-year veteran, how to do a
    simple budget, handing me a VA book and telling me all I need
    to know is in there.'' ``Holding job fairs every Wednesday that
    consist of a truck driver, L-E-O, or assembly line position.
    Resumes produced that are not just lukewarm; they are not
    helpful.'' So I think that if we are going to put the money
    into this, then we need to see some personalization.
        My time has expired. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Chairman Tester. Senator King.

                        HON. ANGUS S. KING, JR.,
                        U.S. SENATOR FROM MAINE

        Senator King. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Those of us who are
    on both Committees, get twice the time; is that correct?
        Chairman Tester. Divided by two.
        Senator King. Yes, I see. Thank you. I figured. I did want
    to mention there was some talk earlier about spouse employment,
    and Senator Sinema, Lankford, myself, and Senator Fischer got a
    bill passed in the Senate about a month ago requiring the
    Federal Government to allow remote working for military spouses
    at any government agency. So that is a step forward. We need to
    get it through the further process, but it has been passed by
    the Senate.
        How much of this is legislation, and how much is
    implementation? One of my life mottos is, implementation is as
    important as vision. And it sounds like what we are really
    talking about today is implementation. And do you need new
    authorities? Do you come to us with recommendations for any
    changes to the law, additional funding, or additional
    resources?
        Mr. Vazirani, do you need anything further from us? Or do
    you have the authorities you need, and it is just a question of
    working the system?
        Mr. Vazirani. Senator, thank you for that, and the
    opportunity to express this; one of the things I think we found
    is that the work through the Joint Executive Council has really
    helped in this collaboration, and in taking the authorities
    that you provided us and implementing them.
        Senator King. I like the idea of the Joint Executive
    Council. By the way do you--does the Joint Executive Council
    ever meet with veterans and Veterans Service Organizations,
    have focus groups, polling, and just input from your customers?
        Mr. Vazirani. Senator, the working committees do have those
    kinds of engagements, and we do have them at the Joint
    Executive Council as well. We do bring people in to talk
    through ideas. So we continue to work that. I think through
    that interagency process, we have worked through, and we are
    understanding where we may have difficulties or barriers; and
    Senator, as we do that, we would appreciate the opportunity to
    come back to you and let you know if we do need additional
    authorities.
        Senator King. I hope you will. And I hope all of you will
    take advantage of my invitation to suggest any changes in
    authorities, any federal statutes that are obstacles to the
    implementation. Here is a question that occurs to me: we are
    talking about TAP, which I understand is a mandatory program.
    What would the base commander do if a soldier skipped a
    mandatory weapons safety class? My suspicion is he or she would
    make sure they got to that class. Is this, again, an
    implementation at the base commander level?
        Mr. Vazirani. Senator, we continue to work through that and
    ensuring that commanders who have the responsibility to balance
    the mission readiness along with care for the service member.
    And that is why we have the commander engaged at that 90-day
    point for that capstone to review how the service member is
    engaging. And, as Mr. Boerstler has indicated, we are creating
    that dashboard so that a commander can track how a service
    member will----
        Senator King. There is something seriously wrong, if 70
    percent don't meet the one-year guideline, that is a serious
    problem. And it seems to me that is an accountability problem.
    So I hope that is a priority.
        We talked about credentialing. Isn't one of the issues with
    credentialing state laws, and to what extent are we able to
    work with states and state COMPACTs? So if you learned to be a
    plumber or electrician in the military, you don't have to go
    out and spend a year going through a state process to get a
    license to be a plumber or an electrician.
        Mr. Labor, what is your view of that one?
        Mr. Rodriguez [continuing]. But I going to say, so I
    apologize there. Senator, one of the things that was passed in
    2021, that there was the ability for states to have reciprocity
    agreements with regards to accepting those licenses and
    credentials----
        Senator King. And is that happening; that is my question?
        Mr. Rodriguez. That is one of the things we are working on
    with the states. We are trying to ensure that they understand,
    one, that agreement exist, but also for the military spouses to
    be educated about that as well, as well as the Department of
    Defense's Legal Departments to ensure that they can provide
    support to those military spouses to have conversations with
    the State Departments.
        Mr. King. I think that would be a place where some emphasis
    should be placed to work with the states' press, the states,
    because all the states talk about wanting to help veterans.
    This is one clear way they can do it.
        I am out of time, but one additional issue that has come up
    in other hearings we have had is financial counseling that is
    necessary for many veterans because they are suddenly out into
    the Wild West of civilian life. And so financial counseling is
    something that is important. Thank you all. And a hearing like
    this always focuses on the negative, on what is not being done.
    You all are doing a lot. And I just want you to know that we
    appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Chairman Tester. So here is what is going to happen because
    nature is calling some. And we are going to take about a five-
    minute break for the panelists, be back--I am sorry to do that
    to you guys, but you know how it is. And then get back. We will
    finish up, and then we will go to the second panel so--and you
    can go vote right now if you want. Okay?
        So we are adjourned for five minutes. And it will be five
    minutes.

        [Whereupon, at 12:10 p.m. to 12:15 p.m. there was a
    recess.]

        Chairman Tester. If nobody else shows up, we have got about
    another 12 minutes, and then we will get to the second panel;
    if you are good with those, Senator Budd.

                             HON. TED BUDD,
                    U.S. SENATOR FROM NORTH CAROLINA

        Senator Budd. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And again, thank you
    all for the panel for being here today.
        Mr. Boerstler, North Carolina has taken great efforts to
    integrate veteran communities. It is something we hold dear,
    and it is very important to us in North Carolina. Here are some
    examples. NCServes, launched in 2015, it was the Nation's first
    statewide coordinated network for veterans and military
    families, and North Carolina communities were some of the first
    to adopt the Community Veterans Engagement Board structure in
    2016, with seven of those CVEBs now locally led by nonprofit
    leaders and working very closely with the Department of
    Veterans Affairs.
        North Carolina leaders are also part of Mission 85, it is a
    three-state effort in North Carolina, South Carolina, and
    Georgia, to align local, state, and federal, and nonprofit
    resources to improve the quality and continuity of care for
    veterans along Interstate 85 in North Carolina. You are
    familiar with those efforts?
        Mr. Boerstler. Yes, Senator, very familiar. Thank you.
        Senator Budd. Great. It seems like we are leading the
    country in efforts to improve veteran reintegration. So that
    being the case, how would you like to see this model--it sounds
    like you are familiar with, how would you like to see this
    utilized in other states?
        Mr. Boerstler. Well, thank you very much, Senator. I think,
    with the leadership of the Veterans Bridge Home, in particular,
    that help steward the NCServes initiative you mentioned, they
    are a critical part of our Vet Resources Community Network,
    which is a nationwide community of practice that shares these
    lessons from North Carolina with other states that want to
    align with a lot of the objectives that they have set out.
        And CVEBs, Community Veterans Engagement Boards, as you
    mentioned, are still fantastic listening posts and observation
    posts for us out in the field that can relay customer and
    employee experiences directly to the facilities that are in
    their backyards, but also VA's Central Office. So they are
    incredibly essential. They are the conduit between that
    installation and that return home to the community. And we are
    glad to partner with not only these partners, but also our
    State Departments of Veterans Affairs who are in tandem.
        Senator Budd. Thank you, sir.
        Mr. Vazirani, in your written statement, you state, often,
    and I quote this, ``Often military spouses find the transition
    of their service member an ideal time to begin, restart, or re-
    energize their career.'' So unfortunately, that is also a
    statement about a lack of employment opportunities while their
    spouse is in service. So would you agree that though the
    Department--that through the Department, they should work to
    improve spouse employment opportunities, not just in
    transition, but also during service?
        Mr. Vazirani. Senator, we firmly believe that military
    spouse employment is critical to the successful service of the
    service member and to a successful transition. So we are
    working very hard across the interagency, also with states, to
    ensure that military spouses have employment opportunities. We
    also work with our corporate nonprofit partners to ensure that
    there are good career opportunities for military spouses.
        Senator Budd. Thank you. So what is the Department doing to
    improve spousal employment opportunities, particularly when a
    military family relocates during the transition back to
    civilian life?
        Mr. Vazirani. Senator, so through our Military Spouse
    Employment Program, there is a specific aspect through the
    transition period called MySTeP, which helps a military spouse,
    through that transition process, finding new opportunities. One
    of the new programs that we have is called the Military Spouse
    Career Accelerator Program. So it is a SkillBridge-like
    program. We engage with corporate nonprofit partners, provide a
    12-week fellowship for a military spouse. They gain pointed
    experience, and we are seeing that we are having a very high
    conversion rate of those spouses into full-time employment with
    their fellowship sponsor.
        Senator Budd. Let me make sure I am not asking the same
    question, can you talk specifically about DOD's Military Spouse
    Employment Partnership? I don't think that is the same one you
    were just referring to, unless it is.
        Mr. Vazirani. So they are slightly different programs. The
    Military Spouse Employment Partnership is where we engage with
    employers to actually--to bring on full-time hires. And we
    continue to grow that program. In fact, we are inducting today,
    130 new partners into our Military Spouse Employment
    Partnership Program.
        Senator Budd. So this Military Spouse Employment
    Partnership, the MSEP, what are current limitations to the
    program, if any?
        Mr. Vazirani. I think the current limitation is just
    expanding our reach, and helping employers to understand the
    benefits of employing military spouses. We know that military
    spouses are, in many cases, significantly more qualified than
    their civilian counterparts. They have higher levels of
    education. We also know that through that military experience,
    they develop a level of resilience and a level of ingenuity
    that proves them to be very successful employees.
        Senator Budd. Thank you. My time has expired.
        Chairman Tester. Senator Budd, I appreciate yours and
    Senator Rosen's patience. Senator Rosen.

                           HON. JACKY ROSEN,
                        U.S. SENATOR FROM NEVADA

        Senator Rosen. And thank you, Chairman Tester. It is a
    really important hearing. You know, our servicemen, how we care
    for them as they transition, it really makes a difference. I
    want to agree with Senator King that streamlining and
    implementation is always key to success, reducing the, I guess,
    paperwork is always the most stressful thing for people. So I
    want to talk about a reserve and guard demobilization.
        So Secretary Vazirani and Secretary Rodriguez, these are
    for you. I am concerned with the demobilization process for
    guard and reserve service members transitioning from active-
    duty orders back to reserve status. The reserve component, they
    are required to complete the TAP program, even though they are
    not separating from the military. The TAP curriculum is
    tailored to individuals separating from military service
    entirely rather than returning to reserve status in their
    civilian applications.
        So instead of receiving help completing travel vouchers,
    and reimbursements for costs incurred during their mobilization
    and deployment, reservists are forced to take classes tailored
    to those leaving the military and starting new lives as
    civilians. We have heard a lot about this from our reserve men
    and women in Nevada.
        So as such, they must figure out the burdensome, let me
    tell you, burdensome reimbursement process on their own. And
    the reserve components just face their own direct set of
    challenges, as they lack access to day-to-day services
    available to either active-duty troops, because they are not at
    their 28 unit days of the month to be able to sit down with
    someone for help.
        So I get to get language in the FY '24 NDAA that encourages
    DOD to modify the demobilization process for the reserve
    component to better address their needs and circumstances, and
    this requires the Committee be briefed on actions taken to
    improve this process.
        So for both of the Secretaries, Vazirani and Rodriguez, how
    would you improve this reserve component part so it better
    focuses on what they actually need, particularly this is a huge
    stressor, this financial stressor, that they can't figure out
    how to get their reimbursements, their travel vouchers? They
    are not getting out of the military; we need to help them so
    they can continue their service. Please?
        Mr. Vazirani. Senator, I think the area that we can help
    that reserve component member make that transition, and to your
    point, they are not transitioning from the military; they are
    transitioning from their active service to their--back to their
    reserve unit, and to their--so one of the things that we will
    continue to do, and we are doing this through the interagency
    partnership, is how do we assess the needs of an individual
    coming into the TAP program, and continuing to evolve the TAP
    program.
        And so an area here to support the reserve component, those
    members, is an area that we recognize we should continue to
    evolve, and we appreciate the support that you are providing on
    that.
        Senator Rosen. Thank you. We would love to see some
    reporting on how you are doing that. Please, Mr. Secretary.
        Mr. Rodriguez. Senator, that is a great question with
    regards to the guard reservists because they have unique
    requirements in their process of transitioning as well. One of
    the things we have done is we executed an off-base transition
    training pilot that began last year, and that is allowing us to
    be at the local communities working with the guard reserves
    that allow us to work through their individual needs when it
    comes to preparing for transition, and/or when they are looking
    for a job to maintain while they are actually performing guard
    reserve work.
        One of the things that we have seen so far at the TAP
    sites, is that there is currently in 10 states, over 7,000
    service members have been supported through the current pilots,
    and we want to ensure that they also understand that if we are
    able to in the future, utilize American Job Centers to support
    guard reserve, that would be another requirement--or another
    resource, I am sorry, that would allow those guard reserve
    members to utilize at the state and local levels.
        Senator Rosen. All right, thank you. I am going to let the
    second panel. We really appreciate you.
        And there you go, Chairman; both Chairmen.
        Chairman Tester. Well you finally came along. You should
    have come to the panel earlier, and we could have finished this
    up a lot quicker, Senator Rosen.
        I want to thank the first panel. Needless to say, thank you
    for the work you do. And also needless to say, we have more
    work to do. So thank you all for that. And you are dismissed,
    and we will start on the second panel.
        Chairman Tester. So I am going to welcome the witnesses to
    the second panel, and I am going to apologize up-front;
    obviously, this is a big issue by the presence of so many
    members, which is a good thing. The bad thing is that I wish we
    could spend more time with you, the second panel.
        And on this second panel we have: Ryan Gallucci, Executive
    Director of the VFW, Veterans of Foreign Wars.
        We also have Tom Porter, Vice President of Government
    Affairs for Blue Star Families.
        We have Kevin O'Neil, who is the Employment and Education
    Policy Associate for The American Legion.
        And last but certainly not least, we have Dr. Arthur
    DeGroat, somebody who has been in front of the VA Committee
    before; he is Executive Director of the Office of Military and
    Veterans Affairs at Kansas State University.
        And as soon as you get seated and you are ready to go, I am
    going to turn to Chairman Reed for a comment.
        Chairman Reed. First of all, I welcome all of you, but I
    want to particularly welcome Ryan Gallucci, who is a Rhode
    Islander, and a graduate of the University of Rhode Island, and
    thank you for your service in the military, and now at VFW. So
    go Rhodi. Thank you.
        Chairman Tester. And Mr. Gallucci, you have the floor, five
    minutes.

                                PANEL II

                                  ----------

      STATEMENT OF RYAN GALLUCCI, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, VETERANS OF
                   FOREIGN WARS OF THE UNITED STATES

        Mr. Gallucci. Thank you, Chairman Tester, Chairman Reed,
    Ranking Members Moran, Wicker, and Members of the Committees.
    Thank you for the opportunity to provide VFW's remarks on this
    vital topic.
        Nearly 200,000 service members exit the force each year,
    which makes regular joint oversight hearings like this
    imperative for today's military. A solid transition can set up
    veterans for success after service; conversely, a failed
    transition could lead to devastating consequences like
    unemployment, homelessness, even suicide. The perception of
    veterans after service directly correlates to the next
    generation's propensity to serve; failed transitions hurt
    military recruiting, making this a national security priority.
        The VFW is on the ground every day at more than 20 military
    installations worldwide, working with nearly 20,000
    transitioning service members, or approximately 10 percent of
    the transitioning force every year. Accredited by VA, our
    professional staff assists troops with Benefits Delivery at
    Discharge or BDD claims, provide benefits' guidance, and even
    provide VA benefits briefings when offered the opportunity.
        Last year, VFW filed more than 12,000 claims for
    transitioning service members, ensuring timely connections to
    benefits like VA compensation and care. We speak today not only
    as veterans who have gone through TAP, but as professionals who
    work in TAP every day.
        The VFW testified on TAP before the House earlier this
    summer. At the time we were frustrated by a lack of engagement
    from VA. Thankfully, our collaboration with VA has
    substantially evolved. The VFW is the only organization that
    participated in multiple TAP 6.0 pilots. We provided feedback
    on the 5.1 curriculum and are now collaborating on ways to
    ensure TAP participants have access to competent, accredited
    representation where practical.
        This is why the VFW highly recommends the passage of the
    TAP Promotion Act. We know the immense value for all troops to
    access accredited representatives. VA has committed to making
    this a reality. By codifying this collaboration, we ensure that
    more service members have access to critical information and
    resources prior to separation.
        Sadly, many are not offered the opportunity to even use
    this program because they cannot attend TAP on time. Timely
    attendance in TAP is critical. Recently, a member of Chairman
    Tester's own staff contacted VFW to file a BDD claim. When the
    VFW spoke to this staff member, we learned they had just one
    day to spare before they were ineligible. In a stroke of luck
    they had their records available, and the VFW was able to file
    before the hours'-long window closed. Had they waited even one
    day, they would have missed an opportunity to apply for
    seamless care and benefits.
        This problem disproportionately affects junior-enlisted and
    junior officers, who comprise most of the separating force.
    Veterans Experience Office data indicate that this is a real
    problem, with most claimants reporting they file after the
    uniform comes off because they miss the BDD window entirely.
    The VFW clients indicate that this may be a command-level
    problem demanding command-level solutions, such as evaluating
    leaders on compliance.
        Connections to community resources are also a force
    multiplier that often means the difference between a
    successful--excuse me--successful or unsuccessful transition.
    The law was written to ensure community connections are made
    for all separating service members. Unfortunately, DOD has
    decided to make warm handoffs only for troops it determines
    require the most help. The law is clear, though: these
    connections are for everyone.
        We cannot feasibly contort the TAP curriculum to meet the
    unique needs of everyone leaving the military. This is where
    countless organizations that offer community-based services
    play a role. If troops are going to college, connect them to
    Student Veterans of America chapters. If they want tech careers
    in Texas, connect them to VetsinTech. If they want to work on
    Wall Street, there is FourBlock. No one knows what challenges
    they will actually face until the uniform finally comes off.
    This is why reliable community connections are so important. If
    no one knows these organizations exist, they will not be able
    to help. We only prevent service members from slipping through
    the cracks if DOD makes the connections as required by law.
        Finally, the VFW knows that families often play a critical
    role in facilitating successful transitions, while the service
    member focuses on completing their service obligation. Spouse
    attendance in TAP is notoriously low, but these classrooms full
    of uniformed service members, on-base during the duty day, may
    not be the most effective vehicle. The VFW is a strong
    proponent of Labor's Off-Base Transition Training program,
    which is why we recommend either integrating VA benefits into
    OBTT, or testing an OBTT-like program around military
    installations focused on families.
        Look, we have come a long way since the VOW Act. Veterans'
    unemployment is down; knowledge of benefits is up, innovations
    that we heard about earlier, like SkillBridge, Solid Start,
    Employment Navigator and Partnership Program are available. But
    we still miss many of the transitioning service members who
    need these services the most. The VFW believes we have a key
    role to play in this, which is why we are grateful for the
    dialogue with your Committees today.
        Chairmen Tester and Reed, Ranking Members Moran and Wicker,
    this concludes my testimony. And I am eager to answer any
    questions you or the Committee members may have.

        [The prepared statement of Mr. Gallucci appears on page 129
    of the Appendix.]

        Chairman Reed. There will be questions. Thank you, Ryan.
        Mr. Porter, you have the floor.

    STATEMENT OF TOM PORTER, VICE PRESIDENT OF GOVERNMENT AFFAIRS,
                           BLUE STAR FAMILIES

        Mr. Porter. Thank you, Chairman Tester, Chairman Reed, for
    having the hearing. Blue Star Families is the Nation's largest
    grassroots military family support organization, and we are
    really at the heart of the issue that we are talking about here
    today, transitions, here today.
        We are committed to connecting military and veteran
    families with their neighbors and organizations to create
    vibrant communities of mutual support. Our groundbreaking
    research is raising the Nation's awareness of the unique
    challenges of military family life, both during and after
    service. Our innovative programs are solving specific
    challenges for our families, such as fighting economic
    insecurity with resources that foster spouse career
    development, address food insecurity, building family strength
    with family programming, and provide critical peer support for
    caregivers.
        With more than 275,000 members, including chapters and
    communities all over the world, Blue Star Families touches more
    than 1.5 million family members every year. By cultivating
    innovative programs and partnerships, we seek to ensure that
    our military and veteran families always feel connected,
    supported, and empowered.
        Blue Star Families has 13 chapters across the country,
    which provide virtual and in-person support, and local presence
    where various programs, events, and services are provided to
    military and veteran families to help them feel more welcome
    and engaged in the community.
        This past year, Craig Newmark, founder of Craigslist,
    committed $100 million to the support of veterans by
    contributing to solutions for the most pressing challenges
    facing veteran and military families, including mental health,
    suicide prevention, housing and homelessness, and food
    insecurity. As part of this generous contribution, he also made
    a personal commitment to Blue Star Families to start 12 new
    outposts to assist military and veteran families.
        Our outposts will build upon our existing chapter
    structure, allowing us to partner with local organizations to
    bring events, programs, and resources to even more veteran and
    military-connected communities worldwide.
        Transitioning from uniform to civilian life is a critical
    period for service members and their families, which is why it
    is extremely important that TAP is a comprehensive, family-
    centered, and outcome-based program that is delivered well in
    advance to service members and their family members before
    leaving service.
        A 2022 GAO report said that over 90 percent of
    transitioning service members participated in TAP, but that
    nearly 25 percent of service members who needed maximum support
    didn't attend the mandatory 2-day class. However, our 2021
    survey told us that over half, 58 percent of veterans reported
    they did not attend TAP or any government-sponsored transition
    assistance programming. Furthermore, 41 percent of these
    veterans reported they and their families disagreed that they
    were well-prepared to successfully navigate the transition from
    military to civilian life.
        There are evaluation gaps in services, and service members,
    and dependents' accessibility of the services. It is a positive
    step that spouse employment has been incorporated into TAP;
    however, child-friendly courses also are key to ensure
    dependents' accessibility. Our perception is there are actually
    few literal barriers to participation for military spouses.
        Instead, it seems that there is a culture of nonattendance
    among transitioning spouses that must be overcome. One of the
    biggest challenges that spouses indicate they face in our
    research, has to do with mental health challenges, and the
    impact they have on integration into civilian society, marital
    issues, and several others. It is our understanding that TAP
    includes some classes about identifying PTSD, and other mental
    health challenges, but not necessarily classes about how to
    manage these challenges and their consequences. Specifically,
    we believe that robust marital support programs will help these
    military spouses.
        So in addition to what we normally look at in terms of
    transitioning with the TAP program, a lot of discussion here,
    also important that we haven't had a lot of discussion about
    here today, are some of the major programs that recently have
    been passed, like the Honoring our PACT Act, the VA has done an
    amazing job reaching out to the veteran and military and
    veteran community to encourage them to enroll in their new
    benefits.
        So over 600,000 cases of benefits have been approved in the
    last year, and it is an incredible amount. And those that get
    the disability benefits at the time following their separation
    that could be an enormous benefit and help during that critical
    part of transition.
        Also, the honoring--the John Scott Hannon Act that was
    passed a couple of years ago; Blue Star Families is a recipient
    of one of the Fox Grants that were a part of that bill that you
    passed, Senator Tester. We appreciate that. We are in our
    second year that we have received that grant, it is a
    significant grant. We have done a lot of good. We have got some
    solid feedback. What we are doing with that money is we are
    training family members and friends on how to address veterans
    in this critical time of need.
        So great work on that, thank you very much, and appreciate
    you having me here today.

        [The prepared statement of Mr. Porter appears on page 141
    of the Appendix.]

        Chairman Tester. Thank you, Tom.
        Mr. O'Neil, you have the floor.

      STATEMENT OF KEVIN O'NEIL, EMPLOYMENT AND EDUCATION POLICY
                     ASSOCIATE, THE AMERICAN LEGION

        Mr. O'Neil. Chairmen Tester and Reed, Ranking Member Moran,
    on behalf of National Commander Daniel J. Seehafer, and our 1.6
    million dues-paying members, The American Legion thanks you for
    the opportunity to testify in Military to Civilian Transition.
        My own transition journey began as I was driving down an
    unpaved road in Djibouti, Africa, with two of my fellow Airmen.
    We were on our way to start our overnight shift, and I proposed
    the question: What do you plan to do when you separate? Neither
    knew. The uncertainty in their responses propelled me to start
    thinking about the path that I would take following my military
    career. After many nights alone on deployment and a great deal
    of time to think, I made the decision to go back to school.
        Upon separating from the Air Force, I enrolled at a
    community college, and from there I transitioned to a four-year
    university where I earned my degree. I had finally achieved the
    goal that I set for myself four years prior. I went on to earn
    my graduate degree, and all of that has led me here today.
        While I am incredibly proud of these accomplishments, I
    recognized that I was fortunate enough to have found my path
    well before my separation. This cannot be said for all service
    members, and I believe that this is why we are here today. TAP
    offers a plethora of information that service members can
    utilize to achieve success post-military service, but there are
    improvements that can be made. One improvement is seeing that
    service members begin TAP no later than 365 days prior to their
    anticipated separation.
        According to a GAO Report released in December 2022, 70
    percent of service members are not completing TAP within the
    mandated time frame. With over 200,000 service members
    separating annually, that equates to around 140,000
    transitioning service members who may have less than a year to
    plan for their future. This is far too many service members who
    may find themselves unprepared for the transition to civilian
    life.
        In light of the information gathered in this study, The
    American Legion would like to offer a couple of suggestions to
    remedy this issue. First, we can look to the Veterans Affairs
    Military Life Cycle modules, or MLC, as a best practice for
    providing vital information regarding the transition process.
    MLC modules comprise 14 comprehensive informational sessions
    that allow transitioning service members and their families to
    access the information provided through TAP at any time
    throughout their military service. It is a great tool that can
    be emulated by other federal agencies.
        For instance, DOL offers a program titled the Employment
    Navigator and Partnership Pilot. This program offers one-on-one
    career assistance to transitioning service members and their
    spouses at installations worldwide. It is an excellent
    opportunity for service members and their spouses to better
    prepare for civilian life by finding the right career.
        If DOL were to create online modules similar to those
    offered through the VA's MLC modules, service members and their
    spouses would have greater access to information that will
    prepare them for a successful career post-military service. In
    addition to allowing for greater access to the many
    opportunities available to transitioning service members and
    their families, we would like to see an application created
    that can be accessed at any time throughout one's military
    career.
        This app would comprise the modules offered through TAP, as
    well as the programs offered by DOL, DOD, and other Executive
    Branch agencies. Through interagency partnerships and the
    creation of a comprehensive Military Life Cycle app, we can
    ensure that service members and their families have unfettered
    access to information that will assist in transitioning to
    civilian life.
        Not only do we want service members and their spouses to be
    successful in their post-military endeavors, but we also want
    them to serve knowing that there are options for them when it
    comes time to separate or retire. This will allow service
    members to be successful both in their military career and
    post-military career, as it contributes to a sense of security
    that comes only from having a plan.
        Chairmen Tester and Reed, Ranking Member Moran, The
    American Legion thanks you once again for allowing us to be
    here. And I welcome any questions you may have.

        [The prepared statement of Mr. O'Neil appears on page 150
    of the Appendix.]

        Chairman Tester. Thank you, Kevin, for your testimony.
        Next, we have Dr. Arthur DeGroat.

        STATEMENT OF ARTHUR DEGROAT, EDD, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF
         MILITARY AND VETERANS AFFAIRS, KANSAS STATE UNIVERSITY

        Dr. DeGroat. Chairmen, Tester and Reed, Ranking Members
    Moran and Wicker, Members of these Committees; I, as a third-
    generation Army Officer, am honored for this opportunity to
    address you today with my insights on the challenges of Post-9/
    11 era of veterans' transition. As a combat veteran, a human
    science researcher, a professional practitioner of transition
    assistance through higher education at Kansas University, and
    working with nonprofit Veterans Service Organizations,
    professional consulting, and my own personal coaching with over
    120 veterans from the ranks of Specialist to four-star General,
    I believe that I have a unique and relevant perspective on
    contemporary veterans' transition.
        This year marks my 39th year in public service to our
    Nation's Military, in and out of uniform, and for the last 18
    years, I have worked extensively with our veterans' transition
    effort. So I am deeply thankful to participate with you at this
    joint hearing today on a subject of my greatest personal
    interest.
        For opening remarks, I wish to share a brief statement of
    my strategic perspective on our transition challenge. The
    military separation system deployed at the inception of the
    All-Volunteer Force in the 1970s was adequate for many
    generations of military members departing their service.
    Societal workforce and generational dynamics of previous
    decades proved to offer more favorable conditions for effective
    transition for our Cold War and Gulf War I veterans than we
    face today. However, we see today that far too little research
    work was conducted then and now on the practice of exit
    transition.
        Thankfully, for four decades, this gap of an empirical
    basis needed to guide veteran separation went largely unnoticed
    due to the presence of a large allied military defense sector
    that absorbed up to 80 percent of transitioning veterans into
    employment after their service.
        As we entered the Post-9/11 era, where social, economic,
    generational, martial, and workforce conditions had changed in
    significant ways, we found our legacy separation systems ill-
    suited to effectively assist our new generation of service
    members and their families to re-enter civil life in the
    workplace.
        Responding to this reality, we performed a process
    improvement approach to adapt our legacy separation system to a
    transition assistance model. Some key changes impacting modern
    transition include the changed nature of the workforce, a
    change from a human resource development model to a talent
    acquisition model, dramatic change to the very nature of work
    in the workplace, the economic necessity for dual-working
    spouse families, and the increased awareness of the impacts of
    behavioral health care and human performance.
        From my research and practice, I believe that the sum
    totality of these societal and generational changes, compounded
    by a lack of an evidence-based approach to modern transition,
    were not adequately accounted for as we adapted our legacy
    military separation system to meet Post-9/11 era transition
    assistance needs. While many process improvements were made
    reactively to our underperforming systems of today, I find some
    of these changes have been ineffective when being applied to
    our transition system, some of these being addressed today in
    this hearing.
        So today, we find our Post-9/11 era veterans having a
    greater transition challenge than any previous generation and
    having to serve as pioneers as the first generation of veterans
    to face such a major cross-boundary career transition and doing
    so while competing for entry with a highly skilled incumbent
    civilian talent pool for careers in new industry sectors where
    our veterans have little to no direct relevant experience in.
    Adding complexity to this current reality, we are also asking
    our young service members to forge their post-military futures
    within a process started just 365 days before they exit.
        This is both daunting and unrealistic, given what we know
    empirically about adults making these types of life changes. My
    deepest belief is that our current TAP program places too much
    life decision-making upon our existing service members too
    close to their departure, rendering a state of learned
    helplessness where our service members perceived an actual
    need, or lack preparation to transition questions if their
    innate belief is they can do so successfully.
        In my written testimony, I offered several recommendations
    aimed to overcome systematic challenges in our current efforts,
    including adapting from a one-stage simultaneous process to a
    more natural evidence-based approach of a three-stage process
    of transition that sequentially merges with our retention
    efforts, that can prepare our service members and their
    families for staying or leaving in a time frame where essential
    resources and assets and planning can occur over time.
        This would require an institutional culture where
    transition is not viewed as a competitor to retention. Both are
    simply a natural aspect of caring for service members over
    their life course.
        My written testimony also addresses the empirical realities
    of service members' human capital and economic entry cost to
    civilian life and work that needs to be addressed more
    realistically than we are doing today. As well as commenting on
    the phenomena that as a result of learned helplessness, many
    transitioning service members place an over-reliance on VA
    financial disability entitlements, becoming a disincentive to
    do the hard work for self-sufficiency and independence.
        In conclusion, I appreciate this opportunity to help our
    military, VA, and others as we continue to work together to
    improve this vital capability to care for our service members
    and their families as they move successfully into civil society
    as proud, independent, and successful veterans. I am also ready
    to share some insights on health and well-being impacts upon
    transition performance, as it was highlighted during the first
    panel.
        I look forward to your questions. Thank you very much.

        [The prepared statement of Dr. DeGroat appears on page 162
    of the Appendix.]

        Chairman Tester. Dr. DeGroat, thank you for your testimony.
    As I thank all of you for your testimony. I am just going to
    say one comment about you, Dr. DeGroat, because these other
    fellows are in front of the Committee much more often than you
    are, but I really appreciate you thinking outside the box, and
    you do that very, very well. And I appreciate that.
        I want to ask to all of you, you guys heard the previous
    panel; you heard the transition programs that are there, there
    is a lot of things you could say, and you could eat up the next
    hour each one of you, but if you were going to pick one thing,
    one thing that the Department of Defense could do better and
    that the VA could do better, what would it be?
        And I will start with you, Mr. Gallucci.
        Mr. Gallucci. Thank you, Chairman Tester. So one thing that
    we believe VA can do better is the collaboration that we are
    already working on, and that is the integration of accredited
    representatives in the Transition Assistance Program, which is
    also supported by the TAP Promotion Act. The reason this is so
    important is that we know that the people who need this program
    the most are not linked to it.
        We also know that TAP can't be everything to everyone; it
    is supposed to provide a baseline of information to separating
    service members. That is where high-touch, vetted, accredited
    programs and resources like the VFW, or VSO peers, or state
    agencies play such a critical role.
        Some of the urgency of this: are the predatory actors that
    Mr. Jacobs spoke to in the first hearing. We call them ``claim
    sharks''. I want to share two stories. The first is Joe
    Ziegler, our accredited representative on Fort Wainwright in
    Alaska; the service members he meets with regularly wonder why
    they are getting solicitation emails and aggressive online ads
    from these companies looking to sign predatory contracts.
        The second is a gentleman who is sitting behind me from the
    State of Tennessee, Preston Stewart, VFW member, who his peers,
    within the military service, recommended one of these predatory
    companies to help him with his benefits. So our recommendation
    is to inject this into the Military Life Cycle module so that
    leaders at all levels know what ``right'' looks like. There are
    aggressive predatory actors out there, but there is lots of
    free assistance, competent, highly trained assistants ready to
    help.
        Chairman Tester. Tom.
        Mr. Porter. Thank you, Chairman. I think that we would
    really like them to be able to look at the TAP program through
    the lens of what the family members want. Maybe they are
    looking at it from a top-down perspective. What does not only
    the service member want and his or her transition to civilian
    life, but what does the spouse want? What does the child want?
    And then deliver on that in person. A lot of new possibilities
    have developed opportunities with a virtual TAP, but they
    really need to have the in-person, high-touch availability for
    these opportunities.
        And they need to be able to have these events when it is
    not just during working hours; they could be outside of working
    hours, because if a spouse has a job, if the service member is
    busy during the day, then there is less excuse for them not to
    be able to attend if it is outside of working hours. I can tell
    you that as a recently retired service member, just trying to
    get a hold of anybody to do anything on the military side
    outside of working hours it is almost impossible. So they can
    do better on that.
        And then how better to acclimate to the civilian world than
    working in public-private partnerships to tell people what it
    is like on the outside and the skills that are necessary to
    make that transition. And then, when you do all these things,
    to be able to tell everybody about it. I would say look at what
    the VA is doing with the PACT Act. If they can do a hundred
    outreach events in a month's time and see the progress and the
    results that they are getting in terms of people enrolling in
    the VA at this point, then they can do this, DOD and VA can
    both do this, in terms of talking to service members, their
    spouses, their family members about the possibilities of their
    training and their transitioning to new opportunities in the
    civilian world.
        Chairman Tester. Okay. And Kevin.
        Mr. O'Neil. Thank you for the question. In reference to the
    VA, I think that they can do a better job in advertising their
    Military Life Cycle modules. I think this is a very important
    resource. Currently, only 30,000 participants have utilized
    this resource in the past year. I think this could be greatly
    enhanced, and that comes with better advertisement and
    communication.
        Additionally, I don't think we need to see transition,
    retention, and recruitment in conflict. The Marine Corps has
    proven that these things can coincide and work effectively
    together with their Marine for Life Program. The Marine Corps
    currently has the best retention and recruitment of all
    branches of the military.
        Chairman Tester. Thank you for that. Dr. DeGroat.
        Dr. DeGroat. I believe the DOD has the opportunity to make
    the greatest improvement to our TAP program, and particularly,
    to see the conflict between transition and retention. I think
    we saw when we had wounded warriors, we recognized that we
    weren't caring for them well during Iraq and Afghanistan. And
    so what we did is create Warrior Transition Battalions and sort
    of Recovery Units, and putting line units, and line leaders in
    charge of their soldiers to help them get well.
        And I think we need to expand the role of the activity
    leadership, in units, to start the conversations earlier with
    their service members, to make sure that they are talking about
    the right things, and that their responsibility--they are
    responsible for their soldiers, if they choose to stay and re-
    enlist, or if they opt to transition back to civilian life.
        Chairman Tester. Thank you, all. Senator Reed.
        Chairman Reed. Well, in the spirit of our partnership, I
    will yield to Senator Moran.
        Chairman Tester. Okay. Senator Moran.
        Senator Moran. Senator Reed, thank you.
        First of all, let me compliment Mr. O'Neil. I appreciated
    your story about how you have lived your life, and how you
    thought about it, and the success that you have had since
    service. And I thank you for your service, and I wish you well
    in all the endeavors that now follow it. You captured me with
    the kind of personal nature of what you have experienced.
        And Mr. Porter, you mentioned Fox Grants, that captured my
    attention, too. I think it is one of the significant components
    of the John S. Hannon Act, and I rarely run into anyone, or any
    community, or any organization that knows or is utilizing them.
    And I am not absent to community leaders, and I am not absent
    veterans. I am anxious to hear your story about that grant in
    the two or three sentences that you can tell me, and maybe we
    can follow up more.
        Mr. Porter. Thank you, Senator. So we are in our second
    year at Blue Star Families with the Fox Grant, $750,000 the
    first year, and was recently approved for the next year. And so
    what we do, we focused it on equipping family and friends on
    the training and the skill sets that they need to be able to
    talk to that veteran service member during that critical time,
    to get the help that they need, and which is, as we all know,
    it is a very sensitive time.
        So it is an eight-week training. And our program, it is
    called Upstream Solutions to Crisis, and that is within Blue
    Star Families, and we have so far completed seven cohorts, a
    total of 50 participants. So it is very in-depth training, and
    we are very proud of that. And we are going to be looking
    forward to doing more.
        Senator Moran. Is this occurring across the country, with
    Blue Star Families in a particular community taking the lead?
    Or this is something that you do nationally?
        Mr. Porter. It is across the country, nationally. It is.
    And we hope to expand it.
        Senator Moran. And does that mean utilizing technology to
    deliver that conversation, those services?
        Mr. Porter. Sure, and in-person.
        Senator Moran. Right; and in person. Okay. Thank you.
        Dr. DeGroat, welcome back. I was reminded by your presence
    that the last time you were with us, Chairman Tester called
    you: ``Hot, white, smart.'' And thanked you for improving his
    image of Kansans by your presence today. In your testimony, you
    say, and I quote, ``Societal and generational changes were not
    adequately accounted for as we adopted our legacy military
    separation system to meet current Post-9/11 era transition
    demands.''
        You mentioned this in your response to Senator Tester's
    question. I wanted to give you, at least for my benefit, tell
    me more. You have done a lot of research into Military Life
    Cycle, and touchpoints in military careers leading up to
    separation. What should we know to take from that sentence?
        Dr. DeGroat. I think societally this is a different--let me
    go back. We tend to see veterans as this monolithic archetype
    from generation to generation, but there are significant
    generational differences between each generation of veterans.
    Yet, we continue to just mildly improve on some existing legacy
    systems as we manage them in all different processes of talent
    management. But I think we have to recognize that,
    generationally, these are different people, the nature of their
    war experience.
        I went to war one time in 23 years for 7 months. Young
    veterans in three years have gone back and forth to wars in two
    different theaters or three different theaters in four years.
    The iteration of how we utilize soldiers today has incredibly
    increased psychological demands. This is the first generation
    that went to war where they are present on the battlefield and
    the home front because of the presence of social media and
    communication technologies.
        The cognitive, mental, and moral demands on the current
    generation of our service members, they are still managing
    their homes while they are managing their soldiers on the
    battlefield, concurrently. So and then the nature of the
    workforce, we had a--we had an economy and industries where
    small unit leadership, which is the majority of our combat
    soldiers, they have great experience in leading groups of
    diverse young people to do very complicated, dualistic,
    hazardous things. And historically, they made great lead
    supervisors in manufacturing and industry.
        But now we have knowledge workers, and knowledge economies.
    And so I also believe strongly that one of our shortfalls, in
    this generation, is the reliance on and looking at the MOS
    skill--the Military Occupational Skill--most service members
    take the ASVAB test, and it kind of boils down to all--from the
    whole range of choices of what they can do in the military,
    from what they were talented for and what they desire to do. It
    says: You can be a cook, a truck driver, or a fuel handler.
        So now as we start to transition, we are saying: Okay, let
    us just credential you in that, and make you do one of those
    three things in civilian life. So I think the reality is, as
    our workforce today, where our service members may have been
    snipers today, but they don't want to be snipers in the
    civilian world, even if they could. They are looking for a bold
    transition, a cross-boundary transition to a new industry and a
    new life, where their soft skills, as veterans, are very
    relevant, but their innate military talent is not directly
    relevant.
        So those are just a few examples where, generationally, the
    workforce has changed, our soldiers and veterans have changed,
    and we have to have a transition program that is relevant and
    that places them within those realities. And my written
    testimony cites about 13 other areas, specifically, where we
    are missing the mark on being more relevant.
        Senator Moran. Dr. DeGroat, thank you. Chairman Reed, thank
    you for your leadership on the Committee, thank you for your
    leadership in the Army Caucus with me, and thank you for
    bringing our two Committees together for this important topic.
        Chairman Reed. Thank you very much, Senator Moran, and
    gentlemen, thank you for your testimony.
        Mr. Gallucci, you mentioned these shakedown artists that
    are going after people as they retire. Have you been in
    contact, or any organizations, with the Consumer Financial
    Protection Bureau? That organization has a dedicated section
    for the military?
        Mr. Gallucci. Yes, Senator. As a matter of fact, my
    colleague who is with us today, Kristina Keenan, had
    participated in a roundtable of CFPB on this last week. We are
    in regular contact. We are also working--Kristina had worked
    with state attorneys general to pen a letter in support of
    reining in some of these companies.
        Chairman Reed. Well, if you need any assistance, please
    contact me in my office directly.
        And Mr. Porter, I was talking about the transition with
    respect to health care. You say, from a very interesting
    perspective, the families. What is one or two things that we
    could do better in terms of transitioning active-duty personnel
    into a transition to civilian life, maintaining the best health
    care they can?
        Mr. Porter. I am sorry. Are you talking about VA health
    care, or are you talking about transitioning?
        Chairman Reed. I am just talking about transitioning.
        Mr. Porter. Okay.
        Chairman Reed. Because, you know, many families don't get
    VA but they have some benefits, or they just need advice as to
    how to sign up for the best program for their family, both
    value and cost.
        Mr. Porter. Right. As I was mentioning before, it is really
    important to look at this through the lens of not only the
    service member, but the spouse and the child. What are their
    needs? What are their school needs? What are their employment
    needs, their health care needs, their community needs? And to
    be able to fold in other outside partners, so public-private
    partnerships can be part of that. That could be able to give
    job training, transitioning advice into the civilian career
    world. So those are important things.
        But the main thing is to look at this from the perspective
    of not just the top-down from what the commander thinks on the
    base, but what does the service member, spouse, and children
    need?
        Chairman Reed. Well, thank you. And you, Mr. O'Neil, do you
    have any ideas in terms of this issue of medical transition;
    because I think it is important?
        Mr. O'Neil. Thank you for the question, sir. I do believe
    that, as I stated, regarding the Military Life Cycle modules,
    that resources can be better advertised and better
    communicated, and this should start day one in the service from
    your first duty station when you first process. You should be
    aware of these opportunities. But having access to virtual
    online modules creates a sense of anonymity that I think is
    important to service members because, unfortunately, there is a
    stigma associated with mental health issues.
        Chairman Reed. Thank you. And Dr. DeGroat, I think you have
    raised a fundamentally important topic, that is, there is a
    real desire within the military to retain personnel. And when
    you set up a system that sets up exit routes that are pretty
    clear now, that seems to have a tension with retention. You
    have raised this issue. Any advice in terms of how do we blend
    those two together?
        Dr. DeGroat. I think it is a perceived tension because
    soldiers, everyone, every soldier leaves either by the end of
    their service tour, or the end of a career, or by sacrifice in
    combat, or result, or just by separation. So the fact that
    every soldier leaves, and it means that that transition is just
    another part of--it is the same thing as retention. It is the
    other side of retention.
        I think when you show the soldier early on all of the
    challenges of leaving, and all of the assets and opportunities
    of staying for a while longer, I think they make a more
    informed choice. I don't think the truth of the value of
    military service is a disincentive to stay. They joined for the
    right reasons. And so I really don't think in practice, it is
    really a competitive thing, one or the other. I think actually
    it is the same thing. Given more opportunity to think about it
    early on, you are actually coaching the person. You have made a
    great choice, you can stay here if you want, you and your
    family, or you can transition. And if you transition, here is,
    to do what you want to do, these are the things you need to do
    between now and then.
        If you are ready for that, if you have saved money to start
    your own business, if you have got enough savings, and a plan,
    and enough credentials to get the kind of compensation in your
    career, your future career that you need to support your family
    independently; health care, child care, then you are ready to
    go. But if you are not ready to go, then you continue to stay
    in the service, serve honorably and usefully, and build those
    assets and resources needed while you are in your uniform and
    prepare yourself for that eventual transition.
        Chairman Reed. So the premise is that an individual has to
    be informed about the benefits of continued service, the
    values, and all the external, as well as the cost of all those
    things. And then, at the same time, they have to be made aware
    of what is available outside so they can make a better
    judgment. And do you feel we are--very quickly, do you feel we
    are doing that now?
        Dr. DeGroat. We are not doing that, but I think we can do
    that.
        Chairman Reed. Okay.
        Dr. DeGroat. I think it is just a culture change, and we
    have to really look at that and make sure commanders realize
    that is the right thing to do. It is not change--it is not
    going to drive--it may improve retention or delay transition
    until the service member is more prepared, and their families
    are more prepared. But not having that conversation until the
    last year, and currently models, it looks like transition is
    when retention fails.
        Chairman Reed. One other quick question, which is basically
    a lot of personnel will make that decision, you know, they are
    going to reenlist, I am going to reenlist, and then two months
    before their--expiration of their service, they suddenly throw
    up their hands: No, I am getting out. And those are counted in
    statistics as: Well, you didn't have the full year. I think we
    have to do something about that. I think they have to refine
    who falls into the category.
        Dr. DeGroat. Yes, sir. My written testimony shows that
    transition in other industries is usually a three-stage
    process. It starts with confronting the reality of eventually
    leaving. Then there is a stage of disengagement, which is
    pretty much what our TAP program is now. And then there is a
    period of resocialization that science says could be up to
    three-and-a-half to seven years. So what we are doing is
    essentially compressing all three of those natural adult
    transition stages into one, 365, and as many testimony, was
    made, we are asking life-changing--young people to make life-
    changing decisions that will affect the course of their life,
    too late, and not enough time to think through and build the
    assets needed to go to the next stage.
        Chairman Reed. Thank you.
        Dr. DeGroat. So I think, simply, that the opportunity is
    just to use the existing military infrastructure that we used
    in retention counseling with unit line leaders who know those
    soldiers and families the best, use them to start having the
    transition conversations with not being fearful that that is
    going to encourage them out.
        In fact, those conversations of showing the alternatives
    and the options, which would suggest, you are probably not
    ready after four years to take yourself and your three
    children, as a junior enlisted person, with very little direct
    transferable workplace skills. You ought to stay in a little
    longer, become a non-commissioned officer, get some leadership
    skills, get some more courses while you are here. Maybe it is
    time for your spouse to get ready before you get out, because
    then you will be a dual-working family.
        Chairman Reed. Thank you very much. I want to thank all the
    witnesses. Do you have another comment?
        Senator Moran. If I could ask a question if you would let
    me?
        Chairman Reed. I will let you ask a question, but it has to
    be succinct, and the answer has to be even more succinct.
        Senator Moran. Dr. DeGroat, please don't get me in trouble
    with--it won't be my fault; it will be your fault if I am in
    trouble with Chairman Reed.
        You said something, and I was writing it as quickly as I
    could, and it had something to do with VA benefits. You said at
    the end of your testimony, and what I wrote was: That it has a
    consequence in creating less motivation to pursue other
    options. Would you tell me what you were conveying?
        Dr. DeGroat. I will make this very concise. I believe the
    frustrations that young people have when they are separating
    with the transition program is that they then start over-
    relying on seeking higher levels of disability as a financial
    cushion and that becomes a disincentive, where they are
    spending all their efforts in transition on working the
    disability claim and ratings, at the expense of working on
    independence and reliance for transitioning.
        Senator Moran. Is there any suggestion in that answer that
    the VA needs to emphasize more educational benefits, workforce,
    workforce training benefits? Or is this just that people have
    this expectation of monetary benefits upon their departure?
        Dr. DeGroat. I think if the DOD transition program--in the
    DOD if the transition program is more effective, as we talked
    about today with some of these changes, then that problem will
    solve itself. But I think the lack of--the perceived lack of
    transitioning well through the DOD TAP program is causing an
    over-reliance and an overburden on the VA for disability to be
    the sole source of their plan for transition.
        Senator Moran. Thank you.
        Chairman Reed. The last word has to be given by two Rhode
    Islanders. So Mr. Gallucci, please go.
        Mr. Gallucci. Well, thank you, Chairman Reed. I wanted just
    to take a second to respond to Ranking Member Moran's comments,
    and Dr. DeGroat's comments as well. I fundamentally disagree
    that that is what is happening. Unfortunately, this is the
    system that is set up. What we see is that these benefits are
    often an enabler to economic readjustment and the like. I sit
    before you as a product of many VA programs. I am service-
    connected; I utilize VA health care; I use the GI Bill; I use
    the VA home loan.
        Now, I believe that these have allowed me and people like
    me to thrive after military service against other factors. What
    I will also say is that one of the things that is missing in
    the TAP curriculum is that the primary mechanism for
    eligibility for VA care, is that service-connected
    disabilities. There is other policy nuances here where
    insurance companies don't have to cover conditions that result
    from military service, and that is supposed to be covered by
    the VA.
        If I were injured on my job with the VFW, I would be
    eligible for workers' compensation. I am not eligible for that
    in the military. There is a reason that these benefits exist. I
    invite the dialogue with Dr. DeGroat and with the Committee,
    but I don't want to understate the significance of separating
    service members applying for these earned benefits.
        Chairman Reed. Well, thank you, gentlemen. I want to thank
    you for your testimony, and also for your service to the
    Nation, your continued service to the Nation. I appreciate it
    deeply.
        We will keep the record open for a week. And the hearing is
    adjourned.
        [Whereupon, at 1:09 p.m., the hearing was adjourned.]

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