[Senate Hearing 118-215]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]



                                                        S. Hrg. 118-215


                IMPROVING CAPACITY FOR CRITICAL MINERAL
                   RECOVERY THROUGH ELECTRONIC WASTE  
                          RECYCLING AND REUSE 

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               before the

                              COMMITTEE ON
                      ENVIRONMENT AND PUBLIC WORKS 

                          UNITED STATES SENATE

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                             FIRST SESSION

                               __________

                             JULY 26, 2023
                               __________

  Printed for the use of the Committee on Environment and Public Works 
  
  
  
  
 
  
  
              [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] 
              
              
                           
              


        Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov
                                 ______

                  U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE 

54-562 PDF                WASHINGTON : 2024  
















               COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENT AND PUBLIC WORKS

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                             FIRST SESSION

                  THOMAS R. CARPER, Delaware, Chairman
          SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO, West Virginia, Ranking Member

BENJAMIN L. CARDIN, Maryland         KEVIN CRAMER, North Dakota
BERNARD SANDERS, Vermont             CYNTHIA M. LUMMIS, Wyoming
SHELDON WHITEHOUSE, Rhode Island     MARKWAYNE MULLIN, Oklahoma
JEFF MERKLEY, Oregon                 PETE RICKETTS, Nebraska
EDWARD J. MARKEY, Massachusetts      JOHN BOOZMAN, Arkansas
DEBBIE STABENOW, Michigan            ROGER WICKER, Mississippi
MARK KELLY, Arizona                  DAN SULLIVAN, Alaska
ALEX PADILLA, California             LINDSEY O. GRAHAM, South Carolina
JOHN FETTERMAN, Pennsylvania

               Courtney Taylor, Democratic Staff Director
               Adam Tomlinson, Republican Staff Director 
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
                            C O N T E N T S

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                                                                   Page

                             JULY 26, 2023 
                             
                           OPENING STATEMENTS

Carper, Hon. Thomas R., U.S. Senator from the State of Delaware..     1
Capito, Hon. Shelley Moore, U.S. Senator from the State of West 
  Virginia.......................................................     3

                               WITNESSES

Kochhar, Ajay, President, CEO, and Co-Founder, Li-Cycle..........     5
    Prepared statement...........................................     8
Boswell, Craig, P.E., President and Co-Founder, HOBI 
  International, Incorporated....................................    18
    Prepared statement...........................................    20
    Responses to additional questions from Senator Carper........    34
McIlroy, Kitty, Project Manager, Northeast Maryland Waste 
  Disposal Authority.............................................    37
    [Due to size constraints Ms. McIlroy's prepared statement is 
      not included in this hearing record but is available on the 
      govinfo.gov Web site. The live, online link is https://
      www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CHRG-118hhrg54562/pdf/CHRG-
      118hhrg54562-add1.pdf]
Pellicane, Charles, Executive Vice President, Business 
  Development and Operations, Human-I-T..........................    39
    Prepared statement...........................................    41

 
                  IMPROVING CAPACITY FOR CRITICAL MIN- 
                   ERAL  RECOVERY  THROUGH  ELECTRONIC  
                   WASTE RECYCLING AND REUSE

                              ----------                              


                        WEDNESDAY, JULY 26, 2023

                                       U.S. Senate,
                 Committee on Environment and Public Works,
                                                    Washington, DC.
    The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:06 a.m. in 
room 406, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Thomas R. Carper 
(Chairman of the Committee) presiding.
    Present: Senators Carper, Capito, Kelly, Sullivan, and 
Ricketts.

          OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. THOMAS R. CARPER, 
            U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF DELAWARE

    Senator Carper. Now let's proceed, if we could, to the 
morning's hearing.
    Now I call up our panel of witnesses.
    Please take your seats.
    Good morning. Great to see you all. Thanks so much for 
joining us.
    Ajay Kochhar, Craig Boswell, Kitty McIlroy, and Charles 
Pellicane. Thank you all for your willingness to join us today 
as we discuss what I think is an increasingly important topic, 
and that is electronic waste.
    What do we mean by electronic waste? Electronic waste, or 
e-waste, as many call it, consists of various electronic 
products, including televisions, including home appliances, and 
batteries. These electronics are created using valuable 
materials, as you know, such as nickel, which can be and should 
be recycled.
    As some of you also know, recycling has been a lifelong 
passion of a number of us on this Committee, including me. I 
think I have recycled just about everything from a Ford 
Explorer, we called it affectionately the Ford Exploder. It 
used to be my wife's vehicle, passed down to our son 
Christopher, passed down to Ben, and I finally took it without 
telling my wife one day, it was about 15 years old, took it to 
a place and had it recycled. They gave me a check for like 
$900, and this was Martha's car. I never told her about the 
$900. Please keep it quiet.
    [Laughter.]
    Senator Carper. I have recycled just about everything, 
including a dehumidifier, which I thought was my all time 
favorite thing to recycle. Doing so benefits our environment as 
well as our economy, as well as our basement, providing some 
more extra room in our basement and garage, and is a win-win 
for the Carper family and I suspect a win-win for a lot of 
other families, too.
    Unfortunately, our current systems don't always make it 
easy to recycle e-waste. Each year, around 50 million tons of 
electronic waste are discarded in landfills globally, valued at 
an estimated, get this, an estimated $62.5 billion. That is 
billion with a B.
    These figures don't include the electronic waste, such as 
old smartphones and old computers, that often remain in our 
homes collecting dust long after we stop using them. In 
addition to their lost value, the electronics that end up in 
landfills often leach toxic chemicals into the soil, 
threatening the health and well being of nearby communities.
    So, how did we get here, and what are we going to do about 
it? Several factors have contributed to the growing problem of 
pollution from e-waste. First, consumer demand, alongside rapid 
technological innovation, has led to a steady increase in the 
production of new electronics. Sadly, our ability to make use 
of the rare materials contained within discarded e-waste hasn't 
kept pace with this production.
    In addition, insufficient domestic e-waste recycling 
standards, limited recycling infrastructure, and a lack of 
education have furthered our growing electronic waste dilemma. 
Many producers have contributed to this problem as well, 
creating barriers to repairing devices by limiting the 
availability of parts, tools, and information needed to keep 
things working. This forced scarcity drives up the consumption 
of new products.
    Fortunately, the adversities of e-waste also present us 
with some clear opportunities. For example, recycling 
electronics at the end of their useful life allows for the 
recovery of critical minerals, such as nickel, such as cobalt. 
Both are important components, as you know, of electric 
vehicles, solar panels, and other clean energy technologies. 
Improving e-waste recycling would help us reach our climate 
goals, while also reducing our reliance on foreign sources for 
critical earth minerals.
    In addition, taking proper care of our electronic waste is 
vital to national security, as it ensures adequate supply 
chains and prevents the loss of sensitive information through 
digital files.
    Today, we are interested in learning more about the role 
that the Federal Government can and should play in e-waste 
recycling. This includes the creation of standards that shore 
up our supply chains and protect human health and our 
environment.
    That being said, the companies that create electronic waste 
must also take greater responsibility for reducing waste and 
recycling their products. We are already beginning to see 
innovation in this space.
    As we will hear today, Li-Cycle is pioneering battery 
recycling technology that allows us to recapture critical 
minerals. In addition, Human-I-T is employing refurbishment 
techniques that extend the life of electronic products.
    From experience, we know that when industry, environmental 
groups, and all levels of government join forces to address our 
environmental challenges, we all benefit. As co-chair of the 
Senate Recycling Caucus with Senator Boozman and with Senator 
Capito and others, I know that most Americans want to do the 
right thing when it comes to e-waste disposal. Still, they are 
often unsure of where to go, or frankly, how to do it.
    Unfortunately, many municipalities either don't accept 
electronic waste through curbside recycling programs or they 
don't offer e-waste recycling at all. Consumers are limited to 
manufacturer take back programs or have no option but to put 
their waste electronics in the trash.
    We now have an opportunity to improve e-waste recycling, 
and I believe we are. In the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law and 
the Inflation Reduction Act, we included funding to develop 
battery recycling technology and best practices, as well as to 
improve public education and recycling infrastructure. These 
investments are a starting point to help increase electronic 
recycling rates.
    In addition, the Recycling and Composting Accountability 
Act, legislation that I introduced with Senator Capito and with 
Senator Boozman and that this Committee advanced unanimously in 
April, would take a close look at where materials are being 
lost from circularity. This critical information could help 
improve how we recycle electronics.
    Let me close by again thanking our witnesses for joining us 
in our efforts to improve electronics recycling. Today, we hope 
to hear your thoughts on how we can improve our efforts to 
establish a circular economy for electronic waste. Together, I 
am confident that we can rise to the gravity of this challenge, 
and as we say in Delaware, seize the day, or Carper diem.
    With that, let me turn it over to our Ranking Member, 
Senator Capito, for her opening remarks.
    There is a lot going on in the Senate today, and there is a 
lot going on for members of this Committee. I am supposed to be 
in the Judiciary Committee introducing a guy running to be a 
Federal judge in just a few minutes, so I will be going back 
and forth. But I am leaving this Committee in very able hands, 
and I will rejoin you as quickly as I can.
    Thank you all for coming in and for working with us on this 
very, very important issue.
    Senator Capito.

        OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO, 
          U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF WEST VIRGINIA

    Senator Capito. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    And thank you all for being here with us today.
    A lot of my statement is going to mirror a lot of what the 
Chairman has said in his statement, because I think most 
Americans who are listening to this are going to have the same 
kind of echoing, what are we going to do here, because we all 
have that issue. We are talking about end of life management of 
electronic waste in the United States.
    Too often, we pay too little mind, we put it in the 
basement or in the attic, to the mounting volume of electronic 
waste generated in our lives. Whether it is the dusty boxes of 
old phones, laptops, and cords sitting in our closets, or 
improperly throwing electronic waste in our curbside trash 
bins, it is an issue we quickly dismiss for being out of sight, 
out of mind.
    There are two misconceptions that I would like to 
highlight. The first is that managing our electronic waste is 
an issue for a later date. This is an outgrowth of the poorly 
developed collection infrastructure that we have in place. This 
often limits electronic waste disposal to only the most engaged 
people willing to visit a dump or a drop off facility.
    The second misconception is that our electronic waste is 
somebody else's problem once we throw it away. This stems from 
the dismal state of consumer awareness and education.
    For example, it is far too difficult for the average person 
to understand when a product is, or is not, considered 
electronic waste. I have actually run into this issue myself.
    Further, many people are unaware that electronic waste 
should not be commingled with our usual household trash. This 
is an issue that has become too large to ignore.
    The EPA determined that electronic waste is the fastest 
growing segment of the waste stream, both in the United States 
and around the world. Last year, some of the statistics the 
Chairman stated I will restate: An estimated 5.3 billion mobile 
phones were discarded worldwide, either thrown away, or taken 
out of service or shoveled into a drawer or box.
    That tally helped contribute to the more than 50 million 
tons of electronic waste generated around the world last year. 
That number is expected to rise to 75 million tons by 2030.
    Unsurprisingly, the end of life cycle management has failed 
to keep pace. Even the most optimistic estimates assume that 
less than 20 percent of electronic waste is properly collected 
and recycled. The harmful consequences if we continue on this 
current path will have a resounding impact on the future of 
this country. For example, improperly managing electronic waste 
exports contributes to intellectual property theft through 
microchip counterfeiting.
    Further, China has recently threatened to curb exports of 
critical minerals abroad. That makes the dim reality of China's 
dominance in rare earth mineral extraction perfectly clear. 
Taken together, these developments threaten our Nation's 
military readiness and economic competitiveness.
    Electronic waste also poses a challenge to public safety 
and the environment. Improperly disposed lithium-ion batteries 
are an increasing source of fires in landfills and garbage 
trucks. The landfill industry reports at least one fire per 
week in a vehicle caused by a lithium-ion battery, including 
one just a few weeks ago here in Washington, DC.
    Electronic waste often contains toxic materials such as 
PCBs, lead, and mercury that we export to developing countries 
with lax environmental standards.
    Despite the many challenges I have highlighted, there are 
plenty of reasons to be optimistic, and I see four of them 
right here. By reducing our reliance on overseas mineral 
production and enhancing our domestic recycling efforts, we can 
bolster our national security and reduce potential 
vulnerabilities.
    Our capacity to refurbish and recover valuable materials 
from discarded electronic waste has greatly improved in the 
last few decades. Previously, electronic waste was just piled 
into a shredder to be sold as scrap. Now the industry is 
incorporating advanced technologies like robotics, optic 
scanning, and machine learning. These techniques allow 
discarded devices like a mobile phone to be surgically 
disassembled, maintaining the purity of high grade materials 
for reuse.
    To illustrate just how far we have come, in 2020 
institutional investors such as Morgan Stanley predicted that 
no lithium would be recycled commercially in the next decade. 
That was in 2020. To the contrary, this Committee will hear 
testimony from the CEO of a publicly traded company whose 
business is directly involved in recycling lithium. This is a 
testament to our ability to solve environmental issues with 
American innovation. It is time for us to realize that we are 
throwing valuable economic assets in the trash under our 
current system.
    Our witness panel today represents the full spectrum of 
interests within the electronic waste recycling industry. I 
look forward to hearing your valuable insights on the state of 
the innovation, best practices, and recommendations to help us 
realize the full potential of recycling electronic waste.
    With that, I yield back, and we will start the hearing.
    Senator Capito [presiding]. We will turn to our panel of 
witnesses, and again, thank you. We are grateful that you all 
are here.
    First, we will hear from Ajay Kochhar, who is currently the 
President and CEO of Li-Cycle, a lithium-ion battery recycling 
company.
    Mr. Kochhar, you may begin with your statement when you are 
ready. Thank you.

                  STATEMENT OF AJAY KOCHHAR, 
            PRESIDENT, CEO, AND CO-FOUNDER, LI-CYCLE

    Mr. Kochhar. Ranking Member Capito, Chairman Carper, 
Senators, thank you. It is a privilege to be here to have the 
opportunity to share Li-Cycle's perspective on the topic of 
electronic waste.
    Li-Cycle, as indicated, was founded to address a missing 
link in our electric future: Specifically, the lack of an 
economically and environmentally sustainable lithium-ion 
battery recycling solution. Li-Cycle's safe, sustainable, and 
scalable Spoke and Hub Technologies return battery grade 
materials to the supply chain with up to a 95 percent recycling 
efficiency rate.
    Our patented technology involves two steps. The first step 
takes place at our spoke facilities, currently operating in 
Alabama, Arizona, New York, and Canada. And at our spoke 
facilities, we safely recycle lithium-ion batteries, including 
full electric vehicle battery packs, through a propriety zero 
combustion process that produces an intermediate product known 
as black mass.
    In the second step, our hub refining facilities will 
process black mass to recover fundamental building blocks in 
batteries again for reuse in our supply chains. We are 
currently in the process of constructing our flagship hub 
facility in Rochester, New York, which is expected to be the 
first source of recycled battery grade lithium carbonate in 
North America. The hub will also produce battery grade cobalt 
sulfate and nickel sulfate.
    Earlier this year, the Department of Energy announced a 
conditional commit to Li-Cycle for a $375 million loan to help 
finance the construction of our hub via the ATVM loan program. 
We are incredibly excited to be partnering with the Federal 
Government on this first of its kind facility.
    This facility, once completed, will be one of the largest 
sources of lithium in the U.S., whether from mining or 
recycling, processing roughly 300,000 EVs worth of batteries 
per year. I am particularly proud to share that during this 
project, we will be creating 1,000 American jobs during 
construction and approximately 270 permanent jobs once we are 
operational.
    Today's hearing comes at a critical juncture, given the 
fact that lithium-ion batteries are now ubiquitous in our 
world. These batteries create an urban mine which have highly 
valuable finite materials, including lithium, nickel, and 
cobalt. No single mine includes all these critical battery 
materials. Our process is particularly exciting as we can 
recycle these batteries in an infinite loop without degrading 
the quality of the battery material.
    I am also proud to share that relative to mining and 
refining, our process can reduce emissions. So we can reduce 
missions of CO2 by up to 67 percent. We can also 
reduce water usage by up to 97 percent for every ton of battery 
that we recycle.
    Despite their value and importance, lithium-ion batteries 
have challenges. They have challenges around environmental and 
safety related topics. This includes the increasingly important 
topic of e-waste. Lithium batteries will undoubtedly create a 
tsunami of e-waste today and into the future.
    In the near and medium term, we need to address 
manufacturing scrap, which is the rejects in making batteries, 
which is being magnified by the clean energy transition. To 
support the growth of electrification, we need alternative, 
sustainable, domestic sources of supply, and we need these 
sources of supply to come online quickly.
    So recycled content should undoubtedly be a part of that 
solution for a number of reasons. First, responsible recycling 
creates a more sustainable, long term supply of materials that 
adds to a diverse energy ecosystem. Also, by doing that, we 
reduce our dependence on unstable foreign supply chains and 
supporting a completely localized battery industry to create a 
made in America battery.
    We help increase energy and economic independence in North 
America, and provide inherent benefits for national security 
concerns. And we mitigate risks associated with thermal events 
or fires as you spoke about.
    In closing, to help support a domestic sustainable closed 
loop battery supply chain and help reduce e-waste, we believe 
Congress should consider the following. First, clearly defined 
responsibility for the end of life management of batteries, to 
help ensure all batteries are in the best position to be 
collected, recycled, and kept in our supply chain.
    Second, create incentives to build and operate a network of 
battery collection centers for consumers, auto makers, 
dealerships, and more.
    Third, strongly discourage landfilling of lithium-ion 
batteries. As we have shown at Li-Cycle, we can recycle all 
types of lithium-ion batteries today at scale.
    Fourth, support and incentivize sustainable battery 
recycling. It is imperative that through recycling we don't 
lead to adverse environmental impacts. So it needs to be 
sustainable.
    Fifth, explore a requirement for minimum content for 
recycled material and new batteries made in the United States. 
This is actually a step which the European Union has already 
taken, and something that could be considered in the United 
States.
    Finally, Li-Cycle is supportive of clear and consistent 
guidance and regulations enabling the efficient movement of 
batteries and intermediate products. This is critical to our 
industry's ability to scale and address the growing amount of 
e-waste in the United States and globally.
    Thank you again for giving myself and Li-Cycle the 
opportunity to provide our perspective on this increasingly 
important topic. Thank you.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Kochhar follows:]
    
    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] 
    
    
    Senator Capito. Thank you, Mr. Kochhar.
    Next, we are joined by Craig Boswell, the co-founder and 
President of HOBI International. He has served in the 
electronics recycling industry for over 30 years.
    Mr. Boswell, welcome and thank you. You may proceed.

          STATEMENT OF CRAIG BOSWELL, P.E., PRESIDENT 
        AND CO-FOUNDER, HOBI INTERNATIONAL, INCORPORATED

    Mr. Boswell. Thank you, Ranking Member Capito. It is an 
honor to be here today.
    I come here representing my company, HOBI International. I 
also represent thousands of electronics recycling companies in 
the United States. And I come representing the electronics 
recycling companies and the ITAD companies that are members of 
the Institute of Scrap Recycling Industries, ISRI.
    My company, HOBI International, has been in this business 
for nearly 30 years. We have seen tremendous change in the 
market over those 30 years. When we started, it was mainframes. 
Then it moved on to desktops, and now the explosion of mobile 
devices.
    One constant in that market through that whole time is the 
vital importance that electronics recycling plays in the 
information technology economy. Companies in the U.S. employ 
over 600,000 people recycling electronics, and globally, it is 
considered to be more than a $40 billion market.
    I would like to spend just a few minutes talking about what 
we do, why it matters, and then I would like to close with some 
challenges the industry is facing.
    Electronics recycling companies help make the electronic 
manufacturing supply chain more sustainable. We do this by 
testing, refurbishing, recovering, and erasing electronics for 
both consumers and companies.
    We also help companies meet their ESG goals. We do this by 
allowing them to reuse and recycle electronics. We also help 
with the social aspect. We run donation programs that take 
products off of their floors and put them into schools and 
homeless shelters.
    Electronics recycling companies also protect the personal 
data of millions of Americans every year. We have made 
tremendous investment and strides in data eradication 
technology. We have also developed certification standards like 
the R2 standard that allow both consumers and companies to 
validate that their processor has the right type of state of 
the art processes and procedures to take their equipment.
    And the industry is helping to bridge the digital divide. 
It is estimated that 460 million cell phones alone are put into 
reuse every year. Those products represent a low cost way for 
those in need or those in underdeveloped countries to become 
members of the global electronics marketplace.
    But we are experiencing some significant challenges. We 
have already mentioned this, but one of the growing challenges 
is embedded lithium-ion batteries. They are in everything from 
airpods to automobiles. What that has done is, gone are the 
days when these reach end of life, we just put them in a 
shredder for material recovery. Now those products have to be 
disassembled, largely manually, to extract the batteries before 
the critical materials that are in those products can be 
recovered.
    Dovetailing with that is the need for design for recycling. 
Our ability to recover these critical materials is largely 
determined when the product design leaves the R&D phase. It is 
critical that in designing these products sustainably that we 
look at the end of life of the product during the design phase. 
We have found that this is not only good for the bottom line of 
these companies, but it helps us recover these critical 
materials.
    Finally, changes in international trade law are a looming 
problem for the industry, especially here in the U.S. Starting 
January 1st, 2025, changes in the Basel Convention will take 
products that have been traditionally considered non-hazardous 
and move them into a hazardous category. This will force 
companies, when they try to move these materials 
internationally, to meet certain pre-determined requirements. 
It also requires you to be a party to the convention to trade 
with other parties internationally.
    What this is going to result in, the U.S. being a non-party 
to the convention, is a de facto trade ban for companies here 
in the U.S. This is a looming issue because the global market 
for electronics is what we depend on. This will isolate 
electronics recyclers in the U.S. from the remainder of the 
global market.
    So in summary, the electronics recycling industry is an 
essential part of the global market for sustainability going 
forward. We feel it is critical as you discuss policies for the 
future that we be involved in those discussions.
    Thank you for your time, and I look forward to your 
questions.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Boswell follows:]
    
    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] 
    
    
    Senator Capito. Thank you, Mr. Boswell.
    We will now turn to Kitty McIlroy, who serves as the 
President and Director of the Maryland Recycling Network, and 
is the project manager for the Northeast Maryland Waste 
Disposal Authority.
    Ms. McIlroy, thank you for coming.

          STATEMENT OF KITTY McILROY, PROJECT MANAGER,  
          NORTHEAST MARYLAND WASTE DISPOSAL AUTHORITY 

    Ms. McIlroy. Good morning, and thank you, EPW Committee. My 
name is Kitty McIlroy, and I am here to speak from my 
experience as a project manager for electronics recycling 
contracts at a State agency, the Northeast Maryland Waste 
Disposal Authority. I am also here as President of the Maryland 
Recycling Network to highlight where our network has identified 
room for policy improvement.
    I hope to provide some context for what exactly the public 
sector has been facing over the past 10 years regarding 
electronics.
    Why is electronics recycling needed? Waste rates are 
increasing, and many local governments in Maryland, for 
example, are already shipping waste out of State due to limited 
landfill capacity. Recovery of electronics is also a safety 
priority, since electronics, specifically lithium-ion 
rechargeable batteries, are more likely to cause facility fires 
if not separately collected and safely stored, due to impacts 
from compaction vehicles and equipment when moving waste.
    There are benefits to recovering our reliance on foreign 
supply, and mining operations, and instead, recovering these 
precious metals domestically since global demand continues to 
grow due to the jewelry, electronics, and auto industries.
    Keeping heavy metals from electronics out of landfill 
leachate is also beneficial, as there are costs to treating it 
at water treatment plants. Electronics recycling also 
contributes to local job growth, and when funded properly can 
eliminate disposal fees to local jurisdictions.
    How programs are currently managed. In Maryland and many 
States, most municipal electronics recycling is managed by 
local jurisdictions. Their existing infrastructure, drop off 
sites, staff, historical knowledge, public education, and 
procurement procedures allow them to run these programs 
efficiently. Some have even implemented curbside collection for 
electronics.
    However, electronics recycling is generally not cost free, 
especially for bulky TVs and computer monitors, which dominate 
the municipal stream. Managing hazardous components, such as 
lead and mercury, and providing on site capacity, storage, 
infrastructure, transportation, equipment, labor, and recycling 
certifications contribute to a net cost.
    Local jurisdictions in Maryland generally fund these 
programs through local taxes, general funds, enterprise funds, 
special revenue funds, and tipping fees. Twenty-five States 
plus the District of Columbia have a variety of electronics 
laws, some requiring funding and/or collection to be provided 
by manufacturers. The remaining States have no electronics 
laws.
    As it has been well documented in industry news over the 
past decade, many State laws fall short. Thus, the bulk of 
electronics end up at municipal drop offs, with the burden, 
operational obligation, and cost left to local government. This 
is especially true in Maryland. Over the past decade, many of 
these programs have closed in the State, or at least partially, 
due to a lack of funding, meaning that many governments are 
forced to landfill electronics, notably TVs and monitors, as 
the only alternative.
    Beginning calendar year 2014, after the electronics 
recycling market crashed, only four of eight Authority Members 
were able to continue their full programs, amounting to over 5 
million pounds a year of TVs and monitors landfilled, rather 
than recycled.
    For Authority Members, in fiscal year 2023 and 2022, it has 
cost over $900,000 a year to run these programs. Currently, 
only 7 of 23 counties in Maryland are able to provide permanent 
recycling for all electronics at no cost upon drop off for 
residents.
    Proven solutions that can function as a national model. No 
matter how well this market recovers, it will always be subject 
to unpredictable commodity markets, recession, and inflation. 
The public sector needs a sustainable source of funding, 
especially for rural communities that are far away from 
processors, and for jurisdictions with limited resources to 
manage full time programs. Many stakeholders believe we need a 
national solution.
    At a minimum, I believe we need a national, Congress 
chaired work group with reps from local and State government, 
non-profit EPR experts, recyclers, producers, retailers, and 
certification bodies to review existing best practices. The 
workgroup could look at replicating what works and provide a 
streamlined, cohesive set of policy recommendations.
    A few laws in States like Connecticut and California could 
provide this framework. They function exceptionally well in 
terms of funding and administration, including manufacturer, 
retailer, and recycler requirements. Some non-profits already 
administer programs on behalf of State departments and are 
experts in doing so, which could be explored nationally. There 
are certainly many in this field who would be willing to work 
on this.
    Thank you for your interest in taking this first step at 
improving our electronics recovery on a national level.
    [Due to size constraints Ms. McIlroy's prepared statement 
is not included in this hearing record but is available on this 
govinfo.gov Web site. The live, online link is https://
www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CHRG-118hhrg54562/pdf/CHRG-
118hhrg54562-add1.pdf]
    Senator Carper [presiding]. Ms. McIlroy, thanks so much.
    I apologize for having to be out of the room. We just 
nominated a judge for the Federal District Court in Delaware, 
and I needed to be there to introduce her to the Judiciary 
Committee. But I am glad I got to hear the end of your 
statement. I have read it, and look forward to doing the same 
with the statements from our other witnesses.
    I always like to make sure I pronounce people's names 
right. So I would pronounce your first name ``Charles.'' Your 
second name, however, is it Pellicane?
    Mr. Pellicane. Correct.
    Senator Carper. Very good.
    Executive Vice President of Business Development and 
Operations at Human-I-T. Mr. Pellicane has joined us today to 
share perspectives on reuse, on refurbishment, and equitable 
access.
    Please proceed, and we look forward to what you have to 
say, then we will ask some questions of all of you.
    Thank you.

      STATEMENT OF CHARLES  PELLICANE, EXECUTIVE  VICE 
       PRESIDENT, BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT AND OPERATIONS, 
       HUMAN-I-T

    Mr. Pellicane. Thank you, Chairman Carper, Ranking Member 
Capito, and distinguished members of the Committee, for this 
opportunity to testify before you today.
    My name is Charles Pellicane, and I am the Executive Vice 
President of Business Development and Operations at Human-I-T. 
Human-I-T is the country's largest digital equity organization, 
with 175 employees and interns in 10 States, primarily in 
California and Michigan. We are also an active member of the 
National Digital Inclusion Alliance, a AAA certified vendor 
with the National Association for Information Destruction, and 
a member of AFTRR, the Alliance for Technology Refurbishing and 
Reuse.
    While promoting digital equity is our primary focus, we 
sustain ourselves by providing IT Asset Disposition services, 
or ITAD services, to businesses and organizations. Thus, we 
solve two problems with one solution. We solve the problem of 
e-waste by partnering with corporations, government agencies, 
community groups, and other organizations to collect and 
process unwanted technology. We use refurbished technology and 
the revenues from that service to supply free and low cost 
computers and monthly Internet plans for students, seniors, and 
families.
    Because our model promotes reuse over recycling, we not 
only keep e-waste out of landfills, but we also create positive 
social impact in underserved communities. We hire from within 
the communities that we serve and in doing so we create unique, 
future proofed job opportunities.
    Our entry level employees receive hands on training in 
technology repair, IT, tech support, and e-commerce, and their 
roles come complete with full benefits, health insurance, paid 
time off, and a 403(b) retirement savings plan.
    Half of our team are in their early career, meaning they 
are 30 years old or younger; 80 percent are people of color; 
and more than a third are women working in a typically male 
dominated field. In many ways, Human I-T is a working example 
of how conscious capitalism can create equitable opportunities, 
develop work force skills, and reduce environmental impact, all 
at the same time. Every day, we work to empower people and 
protect the planet.
    Today, I am asking you to address the market's failures in 
recovering aging consumer electronics, advocate for reuse and 
circular economy policies, and support the Secure E-Waste 
Export and Recycling Act, and implement the Computers for 
Veterans and Students Act of 2022, also called the COVS Act.
    Currently in the United States of America, no single e-
waste refurbisher or recycler can achieve significant market 
share due to a patchwork of State and local policies and the 
high costs associated with recovering, transporting, and 
processing electronics products. There is little to no extended 
producer responsibility, which puts the responsibility for 
recycling onto individual consumers instead of manufacturers.
    Nearly every city and State has a different approach. Many 
do not even consider electronics within their recycling goals 
and simply point consumers to hazardous waste facilities 
instead of a safe and easy collection site.
    At this time, it is not viable for Human I-T to scale our 
public facing collection services because the value of 
household consumer technology depreciates quickly and because 
of other factors like planned obsolescence, restrictive design 
features such as ``glues and screws,'' and the absence of a 
right to repair. As a result, as much as 65 percent of consumer 
electronics are not even recycled, let alone reused.
    Unfortunately, lack of recycling and reuse puts the United 
States in a troubling position. We are heavily reliant on 
imports of many materials, such as cobalt and lithium, which 
are essential for manufacturing advanced technologies. Supply 
chains for many of these minerals are vulnerable to various 
risks, such as foreign government actions. We can reduce our 
dependence on foreign supply chains by reusing and then 
recycling our electronics domestically.
    E-waste contains a significant amount of valuable metals, 
and also hazardous substances. Therefore, it is considered both 
as an economically sound secondary resource and an 
environmentally problematic one.
    When we think of electronics within a circular economy it 
is imperative to think of the inner loops of the circle, and 
not just the outermost loop of recycling. Those inner loops 
include maintaining devices and prolonging the life of 
technology, reusing and redistributing working devices, and 
refurbishing and remanufacturing non-working devices.
    According to the EPA Environmental Benefits Calculator, it 
is 25 times more beneficial environmentally to extend the life 
of electronic devices than to recycle them at 3 to 5 years of 
age. While at the same time, reusing first and then recycling 
relieves the pressure and reliance on the primary supply of 
critical minerals.
    Therefore, the proper recycling and processing of 
electronic waste presents an opportunity to stabilize the 
critical materials market and provide proper disposal and 
treatment of a hazardous waste stream. In doing so, we will 
ensure sufficient resources to meet today's needs and those of 
the future.
    You can help non-profit refurbishers like Human-I-T by 
funding public education to raise awareness on the importance 
of reducing e-waste. You can also pass policies to create a 
more circular economy such as Extended Producer Responsibility 
and the Right to Repair. Additionally, supporting the domestic 
markets by keeping resources local through implementing 
legislation like the Secure E-Waste and Recycling Act and the 
COVS Act.
    Additional information is included in my written testimony, 
and I am available to answer questions during this hearing or 
afterward.
    Thank you for your leadership in moving this important 
conversation forward. Together we can create a circular economy 
that strengthens our country and communities.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Pellicane follows:]
    
    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] 
    
    
    Senator Carper. Mr. Pellicane, thanks so much for that 
testimony.
    And to everyone else, thank you, too.
    My colleague, Senator Capito, has heard me quote Albert 
Einstein probably too much. A lot of people may remember the 
Einstein quote, what is the definition of insanity, do the same 
thing over and over again and expect a different result. That 
is a good quote. But my favorite is, in adversity lies 
opportunity. In adversity lies opportunity.
    How might that be relevant to this hearing today, Mr. 
Kochhar?
    Mr. Kochhar. Very relevant. Back when we started Li-Cycle 
in 2016, we were told we were way too early, running a science 
project, why are you recycling batteries when we are just 
talking about EVs on the road. So as you said, within a problem 
lies an opportunity. And to give you an idea of today's EVs, 
there is probably about $4,000 worth of value in that battery 
on average to be recovered. This year alone, that would be over 
$3 billion of value to be recovered, just from today's sales, 
this year.
    Thinking forward to 2030 and beyond, you are talking about 
tens of billions, hundreds of billions in our market. What is 
needed is technology to bridge that gap. So we recover lithium, 
which is a lot of the value in the batteries, and you have to 
tackle that, and it takes a long time.
    So I truly believe that, and that is the spirit of 
entrepreneurship.
    Senator Carper. Dr. Einstein would approve of your 
testimony, I am sure. Looking down and smiling.
    Mr. Boswell, same question. In adversity lies opportunity. 
Is that true in this sense?
    Mr. Boswell. I think it is very true. I want to thank you 
for your leadership on the Recycling Caucus.
    Senator Carper. Actually, we have a colleague from 
Arkansas, Senator Boozman, we are all in cahoots on this 
together.
    Mr. Boswell. Well, it is very meaningful to the industry. 
It really is very meaningful to the industry.
    And as you look at our industry, one of the things that is 
also changing in the electronics space is the generational 
differences as products come out, it is getting smaller and 
smaller. I am sure Apple wouldn't love for me to say that an 
iPhone 14 isn't that much different from an iPhone 13.
    What that is doing is increasing the opportunity for us to 
reuse products and to use those products to bridge the digital 
divide. So our industry has really shifted its focus on how we 
can reuse these products and extend their life. We have been 
very effective in doing that, because we can eradicate the 
data. And we are even developing operating systems that can 
build multi-generations back to allow these products to be 
deployed both domestically and internationally to help bridge 
that digital divide.
    So there is quite a bit of new opportunity evolving in the 
industry.
    Senator Carper. Great, thank you.
    Ms. McIlroy, same question. In this adversity we are 
talking about, is there opportunity? In the midst of all this 
adversity that we are talking about, is there opportunity? What 
might that be?
    Ms. McIlroy. It is a little bit different answer from the 
public sector. But yes, certainly I think there is opportunity. 
There are some of our member jurisdictions, or at least one 
specifically, that has already started a curbside collection 
program for electronics. I think if government starts looking 
at that option for maximum convenience for residents to 
recycle, I think it would be utilized in full.
    Right now, they have a great network of physical drop off 
centers. But not everybody wants to spend a Saturday dropping 
off an old TV. So I think a curbside collection option would be 
great.
    Senator Carper. OK, thanks.
    Mr. Pellicane, same question, please.
    Mr. Pellicane. Thank you.
    When we think about the opportunities from recycling 
electronics, the panel really spoke to job creation as well, 
but our organization represents that unique aspect of providing 
opportunity to some historically disadvantaged communities. 
Refurbishing electronics not only provides opportunity to those 
disadvantaged communities, because it is really an example of 
circular economy at work.
    When Human-I-T takes in technology with that focus on 
refurbishment, we are creating jobs for collecting, 
inventorying, processing, and shipping those electronics. And 
as I mentioned previously, for many of our employees, this is 
their first opportunity to work in the technology space. And a 
number will actually make this their career. We are very proud 
to have former employees to go on to work for a number of IT 
organizations, including at Google.
    Once that piece of technology is refurbished and we are 
able to give it to a person in need, this thing creates other 
opportunities. So this takes someone who was previously lacking 
in opportunity and gives them the ability to go to school, to 
take vocational courses, apply for jobs, and even start a 
business. So those persons now contribute to their local 
economies, which leads to of course the need and use of more 
technology.
    So in refurbishing electronics, this not only provides an 
initial person with a job, but that refurbished device then 
goes on to provide a multitude of opportunities to the 
recipient in addition to them being able to fully participate 
in our society through things like tele-health and online 
banking.
    Senator Carper. All right, thanks for that response.
    Senator Capito.
    Senator Capito. Thank you.
    Thank you all very much.
    Mr. Boswell, Ms. McIlroy actually kind of hit on this a 
little bit. I represent a rural State. We can't even sustain 
recycling much for paper or tin cans, things we have been doing 
for years, because the economic model is not there. How would 
you envision improving the accessibility of e-waste recycling 
to rural America? Do you have any suggestions there?
    Mr. Boswell. Yes, I think one thing that is unique about 
the electronics recycling space that is somewhat different than 
other recycling spaces is the barriers to entry are very low. 
My company, my sister and I started our company with a few 
thousand out of savings, and we used a borrowed desk in the 
back of somebody else's warehouse.
    So it is scalable. The vast majority of companies in the 
industry are very small, mom and pop operations. I think the 
key to making that work is allowing those entrepreneurs that 
are in these rural areas, I live in a rural area as well, 
probably not as pretty as West Virginia, but I live in a rural 
area.
    Senator Carper. Where do you live?
    Mr. Boswell. I live in Texas, beautiful State, by the way. 
I live in Tioga, Texas, a town of 500. We actually have a 
small, entrepreneurial business within 5 miles of my home that 
collects electronics in the local community.
    What we are doing through ISRI and SERI, the R2 
certification body, is we are creating training mechanisms to 
allow those smaller entrepreneurial businesses to learn how to 
properly eradicate data and also learn how to handle these 
materials safely. Because that really represents some of the 
barrier to entry, is making sure you know how to do it right. 
What we don't want is people doing it wrong for their local 
community. And these resources are available free of charge.
    Senator Capito. So would you say there is enough of an 
economic model at the very end to sustain these, obviously 
sustain these businesses?
    Mr. Boswell. Yes, where they develop that economic model is 
reuse. In rural communities, often you have a gap with people 
affording reasonable electronic products. They kind of bridge 
that gap between, let's say, the school and some of the 
community members to do that. It is always going to be small. 
When we started, we only worked a few miles around where we 
were. But it can be done at a very small scale. But it has to 
be done right. Because otherwise people won't trust to use that 
service.
    Senator Capito. Right.
    Let me ask you another question. In your testimony you 
mentioned, just for clarification for me, you mentioned that it 
would be helpful that when these products are being created 
that the consideration for the reuse and recycling should be on 
the front end rather than at the back end. Is that occurring 
now or not?
    Mr. Boswell. There have been some tremendous strides in 
that. ISRI has a Design for Recycling Award, and many of the 
winners, like Dell and Samsung, had been electronics companies. 
But the market is constantly changing, so we need that dialogue 
to be ongoing. The EPA has been instrumental in the past in 
bringing some of that dialogue to the floor, getting recyclers 
and manufacturers in the same room to feed that information 
back.
    So it is being done. But there is still a long way to go.
    Senator Capito. Yes, that makes sense, too.
    Mr. Kochhar, on your company, are you strictly dealing with 
EV batteries? Are you doing phones, too, and other things?
    Mr. Kochhar. We do all types of lithium batteries, phones, 
mobile appliances, vacuum cleaners, et cetera. So yes.
    Senator Capito. So you are constructing your first major 
recycling----
    Mr. Kochhar. So we are in a commercial operating phase, so 
we have a two phase model, so we basically break down the 
batteries, we shred them----
    Senator Capito. You are doing that now.
    Mr. Kochhar. Yes, and the key there is you don't have fire. 
So that is what the IPs are around, is how do you prevent that.
    Senator Capito. When you shred a battery, though, and try 
to recover the lithium, how do you do that?
    Mr. Kochhar. The first step is really physical separation. 
The issue in this industry is when you go into an e-waste 
process, like a traditional one, and Mr. Boswell spoke about 
that, you have an embedded battery in like a phone, right? You 
put it in a shredder, it is going to catch on fire.
    So what we do is we take that battery which would come from 
an e-waste group, and the way we shred is under a liquid, so 
basically you are preventing access to oxygen, it doesn't catch 
on fire. So we have four of those operating facilities today, 
generating intermediate material. Then the facility you are 
referring to is where we will extract the lithium from that 
intermediate material.
    Senator Capito. What about, Mr. Pellicane, I think it is 
interesting, your perspective with the reuse portions of it, 
and the statistic that you used on how much that would 
eliminate a lot of waste if we just simply reused or elongated 
the life of certain things. I went to the electronics show in 
Las Vegas last year, and the types of products that are, you 
have e-bikes, you have chips in your dishwasher, in your 
refrigerator, you are talking about massive appliances.
    Is the industry looking at this too? We have said a lot 
about phones and e-batteries. But there is a whole host of 
other products that really fall into this category.
    Mr. Pellicane. Yes, absolutely. Anything with a cord, a 
battery, can be recycled. You spoke to the growing kind of 
electrification of things. We also know the Internet of things 
as well, where you spoke to chips going into dishwashers and 
your refrigerators, so that these devices can talk to each 
other.
    But then that of course opens up issues, right? Those 
devices contain data and they also contain hazardous materials, 
as we have spoken to. So the industry is looking at those 
things. We as a refurbisher collect those things and then pass 
those on to those certified downstream recyclers that Craig 
spoke about.
    Senator Capito. Thank you.
    Senator Carper. Senator Ricketts, welcome back. You are on.
    We have a couple of recovering Governors on this panel, and 
the mother of maybe a future Governor on this panel.
    Senator Ricketts. One of the things I wanted to talk about 
was actually, when it comes to U.S. citizens, and we are 
talking about recycling their electronics, the privacy. There 
are literally hundreds of thousands of devices that get 
recycled every year. And there is little accountability or 
tracking with regard to where they go and what is happening to 
them.
    So Mr. Pellicane, I am going to ask you to maybe start on 
this first, and just talk a little bit about, what do you think 
is the threat, what is the risk for the 120,000 laptops, 
350,000 cell phones that get recycled every year? Are U.S. 
citizens' private information being put at risk with these 
devices being discarded in e-waste?
    Mr. Pellicane. There is definitely a risk there with that 
data being recycled, if it is not being handled properly, if it 
is not being handled by certified organizations. We are 
certified to the National Association of Information 
Destruction's AAA certification, which means that we handle 
that information properly.
    But if it is not being handled by the right collectors, by 
the right recyclers, that does create a risk, not only with 
that data being accessible, but also with the potential for 
counterfeits and other issues there as well. That is why we 
support the Secure E-Waste Export and Recycling Act to ensure 
that those products are handled domestically.
    Senator Ricketts. Also, it has been confirmed that 
counterfeit parts from China are ending up in critical defense 
systems here in the United States. Obviously, this is an issue 
that the Defense Department has long identified as presenting a 
legitimate threat to our Nation's readiness.
    Much of the material used in counterfeit electronic parts 
is e-waste shipped from the United States to the rest of the 
world, from around the rest of the world to China. This e-waste 
goes through a process known as blacktopping, where parts are 
made to look brand new to the naked eye. Then these products 
are resold on the marketplace.
    How do counterfeit parts make it into advanced U.S. missile 
systems and other military equipment undetected?
    Mr. Pellicane. You definitely speak to something that is 
particularly concerning and definitely was one of the impetuses 
for that Secure Electronics Export and Recycling Act that has 
recently been introduced. I am not an expert in that area of 
how those items are ending up in our systems, and would have to 
defer to those experts. But I would definitely look to provide 
you with that information after the hearing.
    Senator Ricketts. Do you have any ideas on what things we 
could further be doing to make sure that this doesn't happen, 
that we don't end up with these counterfeit parts from 
Communist China?
    Mr. Pellicane. Yes, that is where, again, I will point to 
that Secure E-Waste Export and Recycling Act that was 
introduced in the House, and obviously continuing to follow 
that legislation as it moves forward.
    Senator Ricketts. OK.
    Do any of our other witnesses have any thoughts on what we 
can do to prevent this?
    Yes, please go ahead.
    Mr. Boswell. Yes. So counterfeit parts are an issue. I 
actually come from the defense electronics background, used to 
be on the Harpoon Missile Program. So obviously we were very 
sensitive to the high quality of our parts.
    I will say that with the growing complexity of integrated 
circuits, in my company we try to recover parts for repair and 
recycling. And it is very, very difficult, re-balling a ball 
grid array takes extremely difficult procedures. We have 
actually found it is better to just go buy new parts than to 
try to recover the parts.
    I think what you will see in China is a lot of those 
counterfeit parts are really commercial grade parts made at 
poor facilities that are remarked because it is just too 
expensive to take these parts and actually get them to new 
condition. It is a significant challenge to do that.
    Hopefully in the future, we will get better at recovering 
ICs, because it would actually be much more sustainable. To 
combat that, at least, when I was in the defense business, 100 
percent testing on parts was something that we required.
    Senator Ricketts. Yes, because if you are trying to 
refurbish these things and it is not in a super clean room, it 
is just a small particle of dust can----
    Mr. Boswell. Even worse is on a ball grid array, the 
connections are so close together, and you have to get those 
each re-balled. And it is a very, very difficult and expensive 
process.
    Senator Ricketts. So I take it when you say that you are 
asking for all these parts to 100 percent testing of the parts, 
that is now happening for some of these parts that are going 
into some of these advanced systems in the Defense Department?
    Mr. Boswell. One hundred percent testing would, and again, 
I am no expert, and I can provide you more information at a 
later time, but 100 percent testing, at least in our situation, 
and this is a few years back, would reveal the difference 
between a commercial and a defense grade part.
    Senator Ricketts. But is it accurate to say that if the 
Defense Department was having a problem with this thing, they 
were not doing 100 percent testing?
    Mr. Boswell. I can't answer that question.
    Senator Ricketts. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Senator Carper. You bet.
    We have been joined by one of the two retired Navy captains 
who serve on this Committee. We have a Marine colonel over 
here.
    Mark, we have just been talking about, Mr. Boswell has been 
talking about the Harpoon Missile Program, which apparently you 
were a part of. When I was in P3 aircraft mission command, we 
used to carry Harpoons. So that brought a smile to my face.
    All right, Mark, welcome. Thanks.
    Senator Kelly. We could carry them on the A-6 Intruder that 
I used to fly. Actually carried one, I never had an opportunity 
to shoot it.
    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    I want to address our domestic source of critical minerals. 
Securing them is incredibly important. It is not just to 
support growing domestic industries like battery manufacturing, 
but also for our national and economic security, and our 
foreign adversaries, China and Russia, control the vast 
majority of certain critical mineral supply chains. And we have 
seen in recent months that they are willing to utilize that 
control to apply pressure on us.
    For example, earlier this month, China announced that it 
would restrict the export of gallium and germanium products to 
the United States. This is a critical mineral used in 
microchips, in defense systems, and renewable energy systems. 
This is just one example of a critical mineral that is 
controlled by our adversaries.
    So I am glad we have an opportunity to dive into this 
hearing today to discuss one strategy that we have to reduce 
our reliance on supply chains which need to cross an ocean. And 
that is reusing critical minerals from existing devices.
    In fact, about a month or so ago, a couple months ago, I 
had the opportunity to visit with the Secretary of Energy, 
Secretary Granholm, one of Li-Cycle's recycling spokes. This 
factory, I would call it, or facility, is located in Gilbert, 
Arizona.
    I am glad that Mr. Kochhar is able to join us today and 
share more about his work and what the company is doing in 
Arizona and across the country to recapture and reuse critical 
minerals in batteries and other devices. It is pretty 
fascinating, what you are able to do.
    And if scaled up, this process can be a win-win for our 
country. These companies will create great paying manufacturing 
jobs here at home, and they will reduce our dependence on 
critical minerals from abroad, and help us scale up our 
renewable energy economy.
    Mr. Kochhar, it is good to see you again. Can you start off 
by discussing how much e-waste will be disposed of in the 
coming years? Do we have the capacity in the United States 
right now to recapture and reuse all these materials?
    Mr. Kochhar. Thanks, Senator. The short answer is no, we 
don't have enough capacity to deal with these materials 
domestically. In fact, I often get asked, who is your biggest 
competition? Well, our biggest competition is actually shipment 
to Asia. People ask about company names; it is really that.
    We have a lot of groups that are brokering, trading these 
materials, leaking it from the United States. I think an 
objective should be that if we make it here, we should use it 
here and recycle it here. I think that would be a way to keep 
these critical materials in the supply chain.
    Now, what is the gap? The gap is around domestic solutions, 
to actually do that economically. So that is what we are doing. 
But also recovering things like lithium, which is what we focus 
on, a lot of the value.
    So just some stats quickly. This year, probably 100,000 
tons of batteries alone, lithium-ion batteries alone in the 
United States need recycled. Our capacity today as a country is 
probably 30,000 tons. So it is far from the mark, and it is 
growing very fast every year.
    Senator Kelly. It was a fascinating visit. They chop up 
these batteries, and they have processes that pull out not only 
the lithium, but the cobalt sulfite, the nickel sulfite, 
magnesium carbonate, and other materials, and then just sell 
them to manufacturers of batteries. It is really a win for 
everybody.
    Have companies like yours benefited from the Bipartisan 
Infrastructure Law and the Inflation Reduction Act?
    Mr. Kochhar. Tremendously benefited. I thank Congress for 
the work that has been done, and the Senate. We have seen a big 
acceleration in terms of the demand for these materials, and 
actual domestic activity. One of our challenges has been, how 
do we get it back into the supply chain here, our downstream? 
If it is not there, they are going to be shipping it overseas. 
So that has been great.
    As I mentioned in my remarks, we have a $375 million loan 
commitment from the DOE, which we are very appreciative of. We 
are already doing it, but this just helps to accelerate what we 
are doing.
    Senator Kelly. And that loan guarantee is helping you scale 
the company?
    Mr. Kochhar. Yes, that is our facility in Rochester, which 
is where we will extract that lithium, nickel, cobalt, which is 
the key part of what we are doing.
    Senator Kelly. Any additional steps that you think Congress 
should be focused on to ensure that e-waste which can be 
recycled does not end up in a landfill?
    Mr. Kochhar. Yes. I think what I said regarding leakage of 
material to Asia is something that needs to be looked at. It is 
kind of a hidden thing happening. It needs companies to step 
forward and actually build, like we are doing. But there are 
policy initiatives that could help around that. And there is a 
range of things we are going to have to support there in terms 
of being a resource.
    Senator Kelly. Thank you for being here today, and thank 
you, Mr. Chairman.
    Senator Carper. Senator Kelly, thank you for being here 
today and for adding to this hearing.
    Senator Sullivan, welcome. We are glad you are here.
    Senator Sullivan. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate the 
witnesses here.
    I want to begin with a basic question. I think it is one 
that increasingly everybody is coming to an agreement on, which 
is if we have critical minerals in the United States that we 
should try to mine them and process them here as opposed to 
relying on China. Is that generally agreement? I see everybody 
nodding their heads.
    Then part of that is because we have the highest standards 
on the environment in the world, certainly in Alaska we do. It 
is a never ending source of frustration despite that kind of 
broad based policy consensus, Biden administration in so many 
areas in my State at least, when they see critical minerals or 
mining opportunities, they shut them down. You guys don't have 
to comment on that.
    I am meeting with the BLM director in my office tomorrow. 
She and Secretary Haaland have just been targeting Alaska 
incessantly. It is unbelievable. We have a place called the 
Ambler Mining District, copper, cobalt, zinc, silver, gold, 
other metals, probably the biggest, one of the biggest mining 
deposits on the planet Earth. We did an EIS during the Obama 
administration, into the Trump administration, got a record of 
decision, 6 years, $10 million, I think it was.
    Same day the President of the United States holds a 
critical mineral summit at the White House on the importance of 
critical minerals, the Department of Interior reverses the 
record of decision and tells Alaskans to start over. So I am 
going to have a little discussion with Tracy Stone-Manning in 
my office tomorrow saying, this is nuts, nuts. This is just a 
pro-China, anti-environment, anti-American policy. That is what 
they are doing. Anti-environment, because China trashes our 
environment. Alaska has the highest standards in the world.
    Anyway, I just had to rant about that, because it is just 
crazy, crushing jobs in my State. And it is driven by the 
radical left. So Tracy Stone-Manning and I are going to have a 
nice chat about that tomorrow.
    But let me go back to this other issue, friend shoring not 
only the production of critical minerals, but the electronic 
waste recycling and reuse, especially given some of the 
security concerns.
    I will just open this up to all the witnesses. How do we do 
that better? In the electronic waste recycling, if we can't do 
it all here, and I agree with that previous comment, that we 
are doing that within the collection of our strong allies, and 
yes, making sure China is not in that loop, because then we 
become vulnerable.
    What is the best way to do that? And I am assuming 
everybody on the panel of witnesses agrees with the importance 
of doing that.
    Mr. Kochhar, we will start with you and then just go down 
the line.
    Mr. Kochhar. Yes, I think there are two sides to it. I 
think on the corporate side, company side, we need innovation. 
We started our company 7 years ago, because we didn't see a 
path for recycling lithium. And as Senator Kelly mentioned, we 
also get nickel and cobalt kinds of things, too.
    So it is a long journey. It is not easy.
    Senator Sullivan. Are you taking those supplies all over 
the world?
    Mr. Kochhar. It is interesting. The batteries are 
everywhere, so we basically get them locally, from where we 
are. We are in New York, Alabama, Arizona, so we get them 
locally from around that area. Also, the making of battery 
kicks off scrap. So I think a big part of it is what do 
companies need to do to step forward.
    On the policy side, I think some of the steps that have 
been taken are very helpful to incentivize. But there are 
aspects, as I mentioned, around leakage of material that need 
to be looked at. It is not just in batteries, it is in e-waste, 
it is in other industries. We have to be practical about it, 
you can't stifle companies at the same time, that is difficult. 
But that is a big threat. We have seen it in our industry, 90 
percent plus of lithium, nickel, cobalt, all heading through 
China.
    So we need to build it here. That is a corporate 
responsibility. But there needs to be the right policy 
environment to help support that.
    Senator Sullivan. OK, good.
    Mr. Boswell.
    Mr. Boswell. I agree that there is a tremendous--well, let 
me step back 1 minute for Senator Ricketts. I misspoke. It is 
required to be 100 percent test, according to the 2012 NDAA. 
That was one of the reasons to do that, to protect against that 
problem.
    But yes, this is a global industry, and there are global 
supply chains involved. But we are developing a tremendous 
infrastructure here in the United States to recycle and reuse 
these products. Companies like mine are constantly looking for 
new ways to make that path easier for consumers.
    One of the things I think there is a lack of understanding 
of is that this is done at a very high level and very 
technically. I think the historic impression of our industry 
was that they are a junk guy. And we are not junk guys.
    In fact, in some ways what we do is far more technical than 
the manufacturers, because we have to handle everything from an 
Apple iPhone to a Cisco router. We have done that by tremendous 
investment in technologies to not only erase these products, 
but also to refurb them.
    We do come up against issues sometimes with the 
manufacturers where they don't support the reuse market. A lot 
of the economics of electronics recycling is based on reuse. An 
item like an iPhone is worth 15, 20, 30 times more, 100 times 
more in some cases as a reusable product than it is a recycled 
product for the material recovery.
    So the economics of reusing it support much of what we do.
    Senator Sullivan. OK, thank you.
    Mr. Chairman, I just have two other witnesses, if they can 
just quickly respond to that question. I am over my time.
    Senator Carper. Go ahead.
    Ms. McIlroy. I will go quickly.
    Senator Carper. Take your time.
    Ms. McIlroy. Really, there is a vast network of 
underutilized collection sites in the country right now. Local 
governments are collecting the majority of municipal electronic 
waste. And a lot of that, if they don't have the local budget 
to support it, it is going to end up in their landfill.
    So if we were able to get a sustainable source of funding 
to them, you would see an exponential increase in what we would 
be capturing nationally. I think that is really important to 
focus on.
    Senator Sullivan. Good, thank you.
    Mr. Pellicane.
    Mr. Pellicane. I agree with my peers on continuing to drive 
private and public partnership, to drive awareness of the issue 
and to also create the collection and processing 
infrastructure. Ultimately really deferring to the EPA's 
sustainable materials management approach, use materials in the 
most productive way with an emphasis on using less, reducing 
toxic chemicals and environmental impacts throughout the 
material life cycle, and assuring that we also have sufficient 
resources to meet today's needs and those of the future.
    Senator Sullivan. Great.
    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Senator Carper. You bet. Thanks so much for being here.
    I understand that you and Senator Whitehouse are partnering 
on some of the aspects of what we are talking about here today. 
That is good.
    Senator Sullivan. Yes, sir, I am continuing to do that with 
him.
    Senator Carper. Great. Thanks.
    Mr. Kochhar, your name has been pronounced several ways 
today, what do your parents call themselves?
    Mr. Kochhar. You got it, sir.
    Senator Carper. All right, thank you. Are your parents 
still alive?
    Mr. Kochhar. Yes, they are.
    Senator Carper. When you are asked, does your mom ever say, 
what do you really do? When she says that, what do you tell 
her?
    [Laughter.]
    Mr. Kochhar. Yes, I think they are still trying to figure 
it out, from what I can tell.
    [Laughter.]
    Senator Carper. I will tell her you are doing something 
good for the country.
    Mr. Kochhar. We hope.
    Senator Carper. And for the planet, I think.
    In your testimony, you mentioned industry's need for clear 
and consistent regulations that govern the movement of 
batteries and recovered materials to and from battery recycling 
facilities. That interstate movement of materials is 
predominantly regulated by provisions in the Resource 
Conservation and Recovery Act, affectionately known as RCRA 
around here, which governs the disposal of solid and hazardous 
waste.
    Given the technological advancements that have occurred in 
I think about a half-century since RCRA was enacted into law, 
as well as the development of new industries such as lithium-
ion battery recycling, do you feel that existing Federal laws 
currently provide the direction that Li-Cycle needs to operate 
domestically?
    Mr. Kochhar. Yes, I think with any growing industry, you 
are going to have a whole host of emerging issues. I think that 
is what we are experiencing in not only e-waste and the 
substantive e-waste being lithium-ion batteries, and also of 
course in EVs. There are some very practical things, how do you 
move these materials, what are they classified as. We take in 
battery input of all types, everything from small batteries in 
your phone to battery manufacturing scrap. And then we make 
these intermediate products that Senator Kelly was talking 
about that he has seen, which contains the cathode, the anode 
from the material, the copper, the aluminum.
    So we make our way through. But as you can imagine, and I 
just alluded to, these regulations were written for a very 
different world. This innovation had not happened at the time.
    So I think there are some known areas that need 
clarification. We support regulatory clarification around this. 
It will help the industry to scale and address this issue of e-
waste. We are happy to be a resource as you folks look at that.
    Senator Carper. A follow up question, and I think I may 
have answers already. What clarifications or updates to 
existing statutes would help create a reliable environment for 
private investments and job creation in the recycling sector? I 
think you may have responded; you have already spoken to that. 
Anything else you want to add?
    Mr. Kochhar. Yes, I think it is really around the 
classification of what is a waste, what is a product, what does 
it derive from. Within waste, there are different 
classifications. These are very valuable materials. I quoted 
there very quickly before, $4,000 an EV battery that can be 
recovered through the materials. These are valuable, critical 
material resources. They are richer than any mine, and they are 
available above ground.
    So that is the area that needs a lot of clarification. We 
support getting some added regulatory certainty around that.
    Senator Carper. Good. Thank you.
    Mr. Kochhar. Thank you.
    Senator Carper. Ms. Kitty, I was surfing on television last 
night, getting ready to go to bed. Before I went to bed, I 
thought I would look for some news on television. As I went 
along, I came across a rerun of a show called Gunsmoke, which 
Senator Capito is too young to remember. But as recently as 
last night, I heard your name. And how ironic is that, now I 
hear Harpoon Missiles, going back in time.
    Senator Capito, would you like to jump in? You are welcome, 
and I have some more questions. Feel free.
    Senator Capito. Yes, I just have one issue. I talked about 
it in my opening statement, that is the potential for fire with 
the lithium-ion batteries.
    Ms. McIlroy, how are you all handling that in Maryland? 
Then I will ask everybody else if they have some suggestions 
here.
    Ms. McIlroy. I think there are a couple of ways to answer 
that. Right now, I think local governments are in sort of a 
reactive position. I know they have taken measures to do, for 
example, site checks of their electronics that are stored on 
their collection sites at the end of each day, just to ensure 
that something hasn't short circuited to cause that fire.
    What I have heard is sometimes maybe more often at some 
sites than others. Others, they will leave for the day and the 
fire will start slowly, then they will see video footage of 
overnight fire that has spread from electronics.
    That is more of an incident when it is sitting in a stored 
container. But I think the biggest issue is when these 
electronics are being put in the waste stream by residents, and 
they are being compacted on the tipping floor, when the trash 
truck unloads.
    Right now, they are mainly just having to react to that. 
They are told to have fire departments basically on call. Some 
sites are training their employees to use the fire 
extinguishers that are on site. Some are told to wait because 
of the potential chemical concerns, to wait for the actual fire 
department. So I think it is kind of all over the place with 
how people are reacting to this.
    I had another point, but it slipped my mind. So I will end 
with that.
    Senator Capito. Mr. Kochhar, you said in either your 
testimony or your response that you have a different method for 
preventing the fire. I guess water is not what you put on a 
lithium battery fire. How would you respond to that, and how do 
we eliminate that risk?
    Mr. Kochhar. I think there are a couple of areas. 
Particularly in e-waste, it is really hard, because the 
batteries are embedded in the devices. I think of old Nokia 
phones, you could take the battery out. You can't do that 
anymore, it is waterproof almost in some ways, usually.
    So that is the first step, and companies like Mr. Boswell's 
have to deal with that. Then we get the lithium-ion battery 
feed.
    Now, the way we shred is under immersion of a liquid. This 
part of it we have patented, but it basically prevents fire. 
But we know what we are getting, we are set up to handle this 
material. But in other cases, they are not. That is where the 
issue arises, if is you don't know, then you have the potential 
for fire.
    Senator Capito. Mr. Boswell, do you have a response to the 
fire potential?
    Mr. Boswell. Yes, I think the point he makes is valid. 
Companies in this industry that have had to deal with this 
problem, we are making a lot of strides in doing this safely, 
investing in training. ISRI provides training on how to handle 
batteries safely. Our companies themselves, we make a focus on 
how our employees should handle them safely.
    The biggest issue is when they get into a stream other than 
to an e-waste processor. I think is some of the education funds 
that were out there, and infrastructure for recycling, it would 
be well served to help educate the public on the difference 
between the electronics recycling stream and the municipal 
recycling stream.
    Senator Capito. Right.
    Mr. Pellicane, do you have a comment?
    Mr. Pellicane. Yes, to just echo the sentiments of my 
colleague, Craig. As a non-profit refurbisher, we follow all 
local ordinances as well as industry best practices. But as 
Craig speaks to the issues, of course, when our employees that 
are trained, or employees like HOBI's organization that are 
trained are handling those. So really investing in that public 
awareness that Craig spoke to.
    Also the infrastructure that Kitty spoke to, to be able to 
handle those things within municipalities.
    Senator Capito. I would like to thank all of you. I am 
going to admit, when we had the topic of our hearing, I 
thought, is this going to be very interesting? And you know, it 
is very interesting. Because it really impacts everybody at 
every level, here in government, obviously, but in our garages 
and our closets and other places.
    It is only going to get worse. I think the economic model 
has got to be there. I like the idea of a lot more reuse rather 
than just removing it and disposing of it. Because that is 
never going to get any better, either. And it is just going to 
accumulate.
    Any way we can be supportive, I will take your suggestions.
    Mr. Kochhar, you lined out some really interesting ones, 
and Mr. Boswell got into the trade issue, which sounds like an 
enormous issue and could be quite painful to fix as well.
    I want to thank you all very much. I appreciate it. Thanks 
for coming in.
    Senator Carper. I think this is a wonderful hearing. We 
have a lot going on in the Senate, the committees and so forth. 
So members are pulled in a lot of different directions today. I 
love this hearing. I am delighted that you are all here 
participating.
    Senator Capito and I work on a bunch of stuff together. And 
this is going to be a great one. So thank you.
    If I could, a question for Ms. McIlroy, please. It deals 
with municipal programs, which you talked a little bit about 
already. You mentioned in your testimony that consumers 
predominantly dispose of electronics at municipal drop off 
sites. My question is, what is the benefit of having municipal 
programs collect electronics for recycling, and how do 
municipal programs compare to manufacturers' take back 
programs?
    Ms. McIlroy. The benefits of it are that local government 
is already doing the majority of this collection and 
contracting for recyclers. So they already have the expertise, 
it is pretty streamlined at this point. It is just whether or 
not they have the funding to do it.
    Another benefit is because the general public is already, I 
would say, well trained. They know to look up their 
jurisdiction's program if they have an end of life electronic 
that they need to get rid of. Trying to retrain the public to 
look on a manufacturer's website to find the specific 
information for that one device that they need to get rid of, I 
don't think that is realistic. That again would put a burden on 
local government employees, because they would still have to be 
training the public on that.
    Either way, they would still have to be heavily involved, 
and it would take a lot of their time to still continue the 
management of electronics, whether or not it is actually ending 
up at their site. There would still be a big component that 
they would have to do public education wise.
    From my perspective, I would feel uncomfortable not having 
the ability to do due diligence when I am contracting, doing a 
procurement for a recycler. If that is left to just 
manufacturers and the public isn't really involved in the 
procurement process, reviewing the financials, the 
certifications, going on site to these recyclers and seeing it 
in person and having the ability to audit and look at their 
downstream recycler's information, I don't think that would be 
a good trend to move toward. Because I don't know how much 
control public entities would have at that point if the 
programs are just manufacturer run.
    Senator Carper. Should we require manufacturers to pay into 
municipal collection programs?
    Ms. McIlroy. My personal opinion is yes. Within the 
Maryland Recycling Network, we are looking at, with some local 
elected officials, updating the current Maryland law to 
potentially do some sort of hybrid manufacturer funded model 
with potentially a consumer fee. Those are existing laws in 
other States that run on both of those models. We are looking 
at maybe updating what is in Maryland to see if we could do a 
blend of that, to basically take the financial pressure off of 
local government and put that burden on manufacturers and 
consumers.
    Senator Carper. I am going to go back to the first question 
I asked, Ms. McIlroy. I am going to repeat it and ask other 
witnesses if they would like to make a comment as well.
    What is the benefit of having municipal programs collect 
electronics for recycling? And the second half is, how do 
municipal programs compare to manufacturers' take back 
programs? Do you have any thoughts on that? If you do, fine, if 
you don't, that's OK.
    Mr. Boswell. I can say that creating avenues for consumers 
to do this conveniently is very important. You can look at the 
parallels, for instance, for the rechargeable batteries. 
Rechargeable batteries have multiple collection points, every 
Home Depot store, every Lowe's store is a place you can bring 
back a rechargeable battery, as well as a lot of municipal 
recycling alternatives.
    So those multiple pronged approaches give consumers the 
most options possible. I think the issue you run into when you 
look at manufacturer funding is, we have run into situations, 
especially in electronics, there is probably more EPR in 
electronics than anything else in this country. We have seen 
some disastrous effects of that as there was no producer 
responsibility organizations that involved recyclers, that 
looked at what is a reasonable fee, what should this reasonably 
cost, rather than driving to the lowest cost alternative, which 
ended up creating CRT stockpiles in almost every State. Because 
the lowest cost alternative was the guy who said, I will take 
them, I will take whatever you pay me per pound, I will stick 
them in a warehouse, and I will figure it out later. That 
created a bigger problem than we had in the first place.
    Senator Carper. OK.
    Senator Capito, I have a couple more questions, but why 
don't you go ahead?
    Senator Capito. I have completed my questions, thank you.
    Senator Carper. All right, thanks.
    I have a question for Mr. Boswell on the Basel Convention. 
I know you are aware that the United States is I think the only 
developed country not a party to the Basel Convention, a 
national agreement that governs the transportation of hazardous 
waste between nations.
    How has the United States' failure to ratify the Basel 
Convention impacted the electronics recycling industry over the 
last 20 or 30 years? Also, how will the United States be 
affected by the new Swiss-Ghana amendment to the Basel 
Convention, which establishes new definitions for hazardous and 
non-hazardous electronic waste?
    Mr. Boswell. This is the looming problem, the guillotine 
that is over the industry's head right now. January 1st, 2025, 
when Swiss-Ghana comes into effect, us being a non-party to the 
convention, we will essentially have only one trade partner 
outside of the U.S., and that will be Canada, because we do 
have a bilateral in place with Canada right now.
    Hopefully we will get an agreement in place with OECD 
before that date. But this is a global market. The example I 
always like to use is, we do a lot of phones. Apple phones are 
dominant in the U.S., so everybody wants an Apple phone here. 
Android phones are much more popular in the rest of the world. 
I can get 22 percent more for a Google Pixel in the Middle East 
and Europe than I can in the U.S.
    Come 2025, if that Google Pixel maybe has a cracked screen 
or something else that they would lump it in now, under Basel, 
if you drop your phone, it is now a hazardous material, because 
you cracked the screen. We would not be able to participate in 
those markets.
    So I think in the short term, because it is coming so 
quickly, we would support bilaterals with key partners, trade 
partners and the OECD change would make a big change. But in 
the long term, yes, it looms as a problem for the industry.
    Senator Carper. I think my last question will be a question 
for the entire panel, for all four of you. And again, I think I 
speak for Senator Capito and my other colleagues as well on our 
Committee. We have really enjoyed this conversation, and 
welcomed this conversation about the good work that all of you 
are doing to address what is a really critical issue of 
electronic waste. But a promising issue as well.
    I am encouraged to hear from the four of you who are as 
committed to this issue, frankly, as we are. We appreciate your 
work to make sure that we leave behind a planet that is not 
just as good as, but maybe even better than the one we 
inherited from our parents and grandparents.
    I want to give each of you the opportunity to share with us 
maybe two or three key actions that you think Congress should 
consider to improve electronics circularity, shore up our 
domestic supply of critical minerals, and address the link 
between reuse and providing access to digital products that 
fuel modern life.
    Let me say that again. I want to ask each of you to share 
with us two or three key actions that Congress should consider 
to improve electronics circularity, shore up our domestic 
supply of critical minerals, and address the link between reuse 
and providing access to digital products that fuel modern life.
    Mr. Pellicane, would you like to go first?
    Mr. Pellicane. Thank you.
    As I mentioned in my testimony and as Senator Capito spoke 
to as well, there is a lack of awareness, there is poor 
collection infrastructure, and there is national security 
concerns all tied into this issue of e-waste. So really, those 
three areas are the key actions we can take to address it. It 
is funding public education to raise awareness on the 
importance of reducing e-waste.
    As we have spoken to here today, nearly everyone has that 
old drawer or box on the shelf in the garage with a stack of 
broken laptops or a bunch of old cell phones. That is an 
indicator of a broken system. So informing people of the 
methodology to do that, and ensuring that that is out there is 
important.
    Additionally, recently the Broadband Equity Access and 
Deployment and Digital Equity Act were passed. And that 
implementation of broadband infrastructure is going to lead to 
a huge increase in demand for free and affordable devices. 
There has never been a more critical time to open up new 
pipelines of devices for low income people to obtain and 
benefit from.
    We can do that by raising awareness and increasing our 
infrastructure around collecting and reusing those devices. We 
can't think that just because we put that broadband 
infrastructure out there that people will access it. We need to 
give them the capability to do that with devices, Internet 
assistance, technical support, and digital literacy.
    Additionally, Congress can pass policies, as we spoke 
about, to create a more circular economy, such as extended 
producer responsibility and the right to repair, really 
recognizing that the establishment of effective e-waste 
collection mechanisms includes the collection and processing of 
e-waste is critical, and that that infrastructure is different 
than your typical recycling infrastructure.
    As we spoke about here today, making devices more easily 
refurbishable in general, and ensuring that any right to repair 
legislation includes non-profit organizations as well.
    Finally, we spoke today about supporting domestic markets 
by keeping resources local through implementing legislation 
like the Secure E-Waste Exports and Recycling Act, and also the 
COVS Act. Really, there is that national security importance 
that we need to recognize, and that there is an ability to 
create jobs through the proper collection of those items while 
at the same time reducing our dependence on imported minerals.
    Senator Carper. That is a pretty good to do list. One of 
the things I look for is repetition. Sometimes people say, 
well, I don't want to repeat something someone has already 
said. Repetition is good, especially in a setting like this. So 
feel free to repeat if you would like.
    Ms. McIlroy.
    Ms. McIlroy. I am going to second the exploring the EPR 
policies. Specifically, I really do think that we could be 
successful with a Senate or Congress led work group to look at 
our high performing State laws in this country. I would say 
there aren't that many of them, but there are some that stand 
out.
    Senator Carper. Like find out what works, do more of that? 
Learn from mistakes, laboratories of democracy.
    Ms. McIlroy. Yes. And I think we want to make sure, as was 
mentioned earlier, we do not want to leave recyclers out of the 
conversation. I know that there are some States on the East 
Coast where I have talked to recyclers that were struggling 
when their programs were supposed to be funded by State laws, 
but didn't end up happening in reality, and they were left 
holding the bag, or local government was.
    So I think there are some really good models out there, and 
I think as long as everybody is involved, we could probably 
come up with a good solution.
    Senator Carper. Thank you.
    Mr. Boswell.
    Mr. Boswell. I certainly want to echo education. I think 
there is a lot of room here, and it needs to go beyond just 
hey, these products are recyclable. I think one of the 
fallacies, we have mentioned it countless times here, is that 
people believe their data is safer in their drawer than with my 
company. I can tell you, in your drawer, somebody would say, 
wow, that is $75 on eBay, your 14 year old takes it, sells it 
on eBay, and your data is gone.
    You send it to us, and within days, maybe even hours, that 
data is really gone. Because when we erase it, it is gone from 
everywhere. It is non-recoverable.
    I think a second thing, it is important that we understand 
that these products, and we say e-waste, but this is not waste. 
These are products that can be reused. These are valuable, 
critical materials that we can recover from the products. So we 
sometimes use that waste moniker and we put a burden on the 
industry around that moniker that makes it more cumbersome and 
costly for us to move these materials.
    Finally, the trade is going to be a huge issue. Our 
solutions for companies here in the U.S. to still participate 
in the global market are very, very important for the industry.
    Senator Carper. Thank you for that.
    Mr. Kochhar. In the spirit of keeping it to repetition, I 
will repeat the top three from my recommendations. First, I 
think there needs to be an assessment of this leakage issue 
that I talked about around, not only batteries but also e-
waste, in the spirit of making it here, using it here and 
recycling it here, that is No. 1.
    No. 2 is around regulatory clarity on the movement of 
batteries, materials, the intermediate products. Again, it is a 
new industry. So that will take some public-private 
conversation to figure that out.
    The third would be considering steps that other 
jurisdictions have taken, such as minimum recycled content in 
new batteries. It needs to be adjudicated well that it is not 
overly ambitious, but you can get to a path where it creates an 
incentive to get there.
    Thank you very much.
    Senator Carper. Before we close out, Senator Capito, any 
last thoughts?
    Senator Capito. No, I just want to express again my 
gratitude for you all for being here today, to continue our 
work. Thank you.
    Senator Carper. In closing, let me thank each of you for 
joining us today, for appearing and for your testimony. I also 
want to thank you for what you do with your lives. We want to 
thank you for what you do with your lives. There are some 
people out in the audience sitting behind you that I would like 
to thank as well for what they are doing in this important 
effort.
    I believe we have had an important and I think an inspiring 
discussion today about the impacts of electronic waste and the 
role that recycling is playing and can play in shoring up our 
domestic supply of critical materials and minerals.
    Before we adjourn, a little bit of housekeeping. Senators 
will be allowed to submit questions for the record through the 
close of business on Wednesday, August 9th. We will compile 
those questions and send them to each of you and ask you to 
reply by Wednesday, August 23rd.
    Additionally, the hearing record will remain open until 
August 23rd for anyone who wants to submit materials pertinent 
to this hearing topic.
    I don't know if Dr. Einstein is tuned in today and is 
watching this hearing, but if he is, he must be thinking, in 
adversity lies opportunity. He was right then, and he is right 
today. There is lots of adversity amidst plenty of opportunity 
here. It is up to all of us to seize the day. Carpe diem.
    Thank you so much. With that, we are adjourned.
    [Whereupon, at 11:37 a.m., the hearing was adjourned.]

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