    [Senate Hearing 118-215]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]

                                                            S. Hrg. 118-215

                    IMPROVING CAPACITY FOR CRITICAL MINERAL
                       RECOVERY THROUGH ELECTRONIC WASTE
                              RECYCLING AND REUSE

    =======================================================================

                                    HEARING

                                   before the

                                  COMMITTEE ON
                          ENVIRONMENT AND PUBLIC WORKS

                              UNITED STATES SENATE

                        ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                                 FIRST SESSION

                                   __________

                                 JULY 26, 2023
                                   __________

      Printed for the use of the Committee on Environment and Public Works

                  [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

            Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov
                                     ______

                      U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE

    54-562 PDF                WASHINGTON : 2024

                   COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENT AND PUBLIC WORKS

                        ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                                 FIRST SESSION

                      THOMAS R. CARPER, Delaware, Chairman
              SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO, West Virginia, Ranking Member

    BENJAMIN L. CARDIN, Maryland         KEVIN CRAMER, North Dakota
    BERNARD SANDERS, Vermont             CYNTHIA M. LUMMIS, Wyoming
    SHELDON WHITEHOUSE, Rhode Island     MARKWAYNE MULLIN, Oklahoma
    JEFF MERKLEY, Oregon                 PETE RICKETTS, Nebraska
    EDWARD J. MARKEY, Massachusetts      JOHN BOOZMAN, Arkansas
    DEBBIE STABENOW, Michigan            ROGER WICKER, Mississippi
    MARK KELLY, Arizona                  DAN SULLIVAN, Alaska
    ALEX PADILLA, California             LINDSEY O. GRAHAM, South Carolina
    JOHN FETTERMAN, Pennsylvania

                   Courtney Taylor, Democratic Staff Director
                   Adam Tomlinson, Republican Staff Director

                                C O N T E N T S

                                  ----------
                                                                       Page

                                 JULY 26, 2023

                               OPENING STATEMENTS

    Carper, Hon. Thomas R., U.S. Senator from the State of Delaware..     1
    Capito, Hon. Shelley Moore, U.S. Senator from the State of West
      Virginia.......................................................     3

                                   WITNESSES

    Kochhar, Ajay, President, CEO, and Co-Founder, Li-Cycle..........     5
        Prepared statement...........................................     8
    Boswell, Craig, P.E., President and Co-Founder, HOBI
      International, Incorporated....................................    18
        Prepared statement...........................................    20
        Responses to additional questions from Senator Carper........    34
    McIlroy, Kitty, Project Manager, Northeast Maryland Waste
      Disposal Authority.............................................    37
        [Due to size constraints Ms. McIlroy's prepared statement is
          not included in this hearing record but is available on the
          govinfo.gov Web site. The live, online link is https://
          www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CHRG-118hhrg54562/pdf/CHRG-
          118hhrg54562-add1.pdf]
    Pellicane, Charles, Executive Vice President, Business
      Development and Operations, Human-I-T..........................    39
        Prepared statement...........................................    41

                      IMPROVING CAPACITY FOR CRITICAL MIN-
                       ERAL  RECOVERY  THROUGH  ELECTRONIC
                       WASTE RECYCLING AND REUSE

                                  ----------

                            WEDNESDAY, JULY 26, 2023

                                           U.S. Senate,
                     Committee on Environment and Public Works,
                                                        Washington, DC.
        The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:06 a.m. in
    room 406, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Thomas R. Carper
    (Chairman of the Committee) presiding.
        Present: Senators Carper, Capito, Kelly, Sullivan, and
    Ricketts.

              OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. THOMAS R. CARPER,
                U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF DELAWARE

        Senator Carper. Now let's proceed, if we could, to the
    morning's hearing.
        Now I call up our panel of witnesses.
        Please take your seats.
        Good morning. Great to see you all. Thanks so much for
    joining us.
        Ajay Kochhar, Craig Boswell, Kitty McIlroy, and Charles
    Pellicane. Thank you all for your willingness to join us today
    as we discuss what I think is an increasingly important topic,
    and that is electronic waste.
        What do we mean by electronic waste? Electronic waste, or
    e-waste, as many call it, consists of various electronic
    products, including televisions, including home appliances, and
    batteries. These electronics are created using valuable
    materials, as you know, such as nickel, which can be and should
    be recycled.
        As some of you also know, recycling has been a lifelong
    passion of a number of us on this Committee, including me. I
    think I have recycled just about everything from a Ford
    Explorer, we called it affectionately the Ford Exploder. It
    used to be my wife's vehicle, passed down to our son
    Christopher, passed down to Ben, and I finally took it without
    telling my wife one day, it was about 15 years old, took it to
    a place and had it recycled. They gave me a check for like
    $900, and this was Martha's car. I never told her about the
    $900. Please keep it quiet.
        [Laughter.]
        Senator Carper. I have recycled just about everything,
    including a dehumidifier, which I thought was my all time
    favorite thing to recycle. Doing so benefits our environment as
    well as our economy, as well as our basement, providing some
    more extra room in our basement and garage, and is a win-win
    for the Carper family and I suspect a win-win for a lot of
    other families, too.
        Unfortunately, our current systems don't always make it
    easy to recycle e-waste. Each year, around 50 million tons of
    electronic waste are discarded in landfills globally, valued at
    an estimated, get this, an estimated $62.5 billion. That is
    billion with a B.
        These figures don't include the electronic waste, such as
    old smartphones and old computers, that often remain in our
    homes collecting dust long after we stop using them. In
    addition to their lost value, the electronics that end up in
    landfills often leach toxic chemicals into the soil,
    threatening the health and well being of nearby communities.
        So, how did we get here, and what are we going to do about
    it? Several factors have contributed to the growing problem of
    pollution from e-waste. First, consumer demand, alongside rapid
    technological innovation, has led to a steady increase in the
    production of new electronics. Sadly, our ability to make use
    of the rare materials contained within discarded e-waste hasn't
    kept pace with this production.
        In addition, insufficient domestic e-waste recycling
    standards, limited recycling infrastructure, and a lack of
    education have furthered our growing electronic waste dilemma.
    Many producers have contributed to this problem as well,
    creating barriers to repairing devices by limiting the
    availability of parts, tools, and information needed to keep
    things working. This forced scarcity drives up the consumption
    of new products.
        Fortunately, the adversities of e-waste also present us
    with some clear opportunities. For example, recycling
    electronics at the end of their useful life allows for the
    recovery of critical minerals, such as nickel, such as cobalt.
    Both are important components, as you know, of electric
    vehicles, solar panels, and other clean energy technologies.
    Improving e-waste recycling would help us reach our climate
    goals, while also reducing our reliance on foreign sources for
    critical earth minerals.
        In addition, taking proper care of our electronic waste is
    vital to national security, as it ensures adequate supply
    chains and prevents the loss of sensitive information through
    digital files.
        Today, we are interested in learning more about the role
    that the Federal Government can and should play in e-waste
    recycling. This includes the creation of standards that shore
    up our supply chains and protect human health and our
    environment.
        That being said, the companies that create electronic waste
    must also take greater responsibility for reducing waste and
    recycling their products. We are already beginning to see
    innovation in this space.
        As we will hear today, Li-Cycle is pioneering battery
    recycling technology that allows us to recapture critical
    minerals. In addition, Human-I-T is employing refurbishment
    techniques that extend the life of electronic products.
        From experience, we know that when industry, environmental
    groups, and all levels of government join forces to address our
    environmental challenges, we all benefit. As co-chair of the
    Senate Recycling Caucus with Senator Boozman and with Senator
    Capito and others, I know that most Americans want to do the
    right thing when it comes to e-waste disposal. Still, they are
    often unsure of where to go, or frankly, how to do it.
        Unfortunately, many municipalities either don't accept
    electronic waste through curbside recycling programs or they
    don't offer e-waste recycling at all. Consumers are limited to
    manufacturer take back programs or have no option but to put
    their waste electronics in the trash.
        We now have an opportunity to improve e-waste recycling,
    and I believe we are. In the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law and
    the Inflation Reduction Act, we included funding to develop
    battery recycling technology and best practices, as well as to
    improve public education and recycling infrastructure. These
    investments are a starting point to help increase electronic
    recycling rates.
        In addition, the Recycling and Composting Accountability
    Act, legislation that I introduced with Senator Capito and with
    Senator Boozman and that this Committee advanced unanimously in
    April, would take a close look at where materials are being
    lost from circularity. This critical information could help
    improve how we recycle electronics.
        Let me close by again thanking our witnesses for joining us
    in our efforts to improve electronics recycling. Today, we hope
    to hear your thoughts on how we can improve our efforts to
    establish a circular economy for electronic waste. Together, I
    am confident that we can rise to the gravity of this challenge,
    and as we say in Delaware, seize the day, or Carper diem.
        With that, let me turn it over to our Ranking Member,
    Senator Capito, for her opening remarks.
        There is a lot going on in the Senate today, and there is a
    lot going on for members of this Committee. I am supposed to be
    in the Judiciary Committee introducing a guy running to be a
    Federal judge in just a few minutes, so I will be going back
    and forth. But I am leaving this Committee in very able hands,
    and I will rejoin you as quickly as I can.
        Thank you all for coming in and for working with us on this
    very, very important issue.
        Senator Capito.

            OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO,
              U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF WEST VIRGINIA

        Senator Capito. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        And thank you all for being here with us today.
        A lot of my statement is going to mirror a lot of what the
    Chairman has said in his statement, because I think most
    Americans who are listening to this are going to have the same
    kind of echoing, what are we going to do here, because we all
    have that issue. We are talking about end of life management of
    electronic waste in the United States.
        Too often, we pay too little mind, we put it in the
    basement or in the attic, to the mounting volume of electronic
    waste generated in our lives. Whether it is the dusty boxes of
    old phones, laptops, and cords sitting in our closets, or
    improperly throwing electronic waste in our curbside trash
    bins, it is an issue we quickly dismiss for being out of sight,
    out of mind.
        There are two misconceptions that I would like to
    highlight. The first is that managing our electronic waste is
    an issue for a later date. This is an outgrowth of the poorly
    developed collection infrastructure that we have in place. This
    often limits electronic waste disposal to only the most engaged
    people willing to visit a dump or a drop off facility.
        The second misconception is that our electronic waste is
    somebody else's problem once we throw it away. This stems from
    the dismal state of consumer awareness and education.
        For example, it is far too difficult for the average person
    to understand when a product is, or is not, considered
    electronic waste. I have actually run into this issue myself.
        Further, many people are unaware that electronic waste
    should not be commingled with our usual household trash. This
    is an issue that has become too large to ignore.
        The EPA determined that electronic waste is the fastest
    growing segment of the waste stream, both in the United States
    and around the world. Last year, some of the statistics the
    Chairman stated I will restate: An estimated 5.3 billion mobile
    phones were discarded worldwide, either thrown away, or taken
    out of service or shoveled into a drawer or box.
        That tally helped contribute to the more than 50 million
    tons of electronic waste generated around the world last year.
    That number is expected to rise to 75 million tons by 2030.
        Unsurprisingly, the end of life cycle management has failed
    to keep pace. Even the most optimistic estimates assume that
    less than 20 percent of electronic waste is properly collected
    and recycled. The harmful consequences if we continue on this
    current path will have a resounding impact on the future of
    this country. For example, improperly managing electronic waste
    exports contributes to intellectual property theft through
    microchip counterfeiting.
        Further, China has recently threatened to curb exports of
    critical minerals abroad. That makes the dim reality of China's
    dominance in rare earth mineral extraction perfectly clear.
    Taken together, these developments threaten our Nation's
    military readiness and economic competitiveness.
        Electronic waste also poses a challenge to public safety
    and the environment. Improperly disposed lithium-ion batteries
    are an increasing source of fires in landfills and garbage
    trucks. The landfill industry reports at least one fire per
    week in a vehicle caused by a lithium-ion battery, including
    one just a few weeks ago here in Washington, DC.
        Electronic waste often contains toxic materials such as
    PCBs, lead, and mercury that we export to developing countries
    with lax environmental standards.
        Despite the many challenges I have highlighted, there are
    plenty of reasons to be optimistic, and I see four of them
    right here. By reducing our reliance on overseas mineral
    production and enhancing our domestic recycling efforts, we can
    bolster our national security and reduce potential
    vulnerabilities.
        Our capacity to refurbish and recover valuable materials
    from discarded electronic waste has greatly improved in the
    last few decades. Previously, electronic waste was just piled
    into a shredder to be sold as scrap. Now the industry is
    incorporating advanced technologies like robotics, optic
    scanning, and machine learning. These techniques allow
    discarded devices like a mobile phone to be surgically
    disassembled, maintaining the purity of high grade materials
    for reuse.
        To illustrate just how far we have come, in 2020
    institutional investors such as Morgan Stanley predicted that
    no lithium would be recycled commercially in the next decade.
    That was in 2020. To the contrary, this Committee will hear
    testimony from the CEO of a publicly traded company whose
    business is directly involved in recycling lithium. This is a
    testament to our ability to solve environmental issues with
    American innovation. It is time for us to realize that we are
    throwing valuable economic assets in the trash under our
    current system.
        Our witness panel today represents the full spectrum of
    interests within the electronic waste recycling industry. I
    look forward to hearing your valuable insights on the state of
    the innovation, best practices, and recommendations to help us
    realize the full potential of recycling electronic waste.
        With that, I yield back, and we will start the hearing.
        Senator Capito [presiding]. We will turn to our panel of
    witnesses, and again, thank you. We are grateful that you all
    are here.
        First, we will hear from Ajay Kochhar, who is currently the
    President and CEO of Li-Cycle, a lithium-ion battery recycling
    company.
        Mr. Kochhar, you may begin with your statement when you are
    ready. Thank you.

                      STATEMENT OF AJAY KOCHHAR,
                PRESIDENT, CEO, AND CO-FOUNDER, LI-CYCLE

        Mr. Kochhar. Ranking Member Capito, Chairman Carper,
    Senators, thank you. It is a privilege to be here to have the
    opportunity to share Li-Cycle's perspective on the topic of
    electronic waste.
        Li-Cycle, as indicated, was founded to address a missing
    link in our electric future: Specifically, the lack of an
    economically and environmentally sustainable lithium-ion
    battery recycling solution. Li-Cycle's safe, sustainable, and
    scalable Spoke and Hub Technologies return battery grade
    materials to the supply chain with up to a 95 percent recycling
    efficiency rate.
        Our patented technology involves two steps. The first step
    takes place at our spoke facilities, currently operating in
    Alabama, Arizona, New York, and Canada. And at our spoke
    facilities, we safely recycle lithium-ion batteries, including
    full electric vehicle battery packs, through a propriety zero
    combustion process that produces an intermediate product known
    as black mass.
        In the second step, our hub refining facilities will
    process black mass to recover fundamental building blocks in
    batteries again for reuse in our supply chains. We are
    currently in the process of constructing our flagship hub
    facility in Rochester, New York, which is expected to be the
    first source of recycled battery grade lithium carbonate in
    North America. The hub will also produce battery grade cobalt
    sulfate and nickel sulfate.
        Earlier this year, the Department of Energy announced a
    conditional commit to Li-Cycle for a $375 million loan to help
    finance the construction of our hub via the ATVM loan program.
    We are incredibly excited to be partnering with the Federal
    Government on this first of its kind facility.
        This facility, once completed, will be one of the largest
    sources of lithium in the U.S., whether from mining or
    recycling, processing roughly 300,000 EVs worth of batteries
    per year. I am particularly proud to share that during this
    project, we will be creating 1,000 American jobs during
    construction and approximately 270 permanent jobs once we are
    operational.
        Today's hearing comes at a critical juncture, given the
    fact that lithium-ion batteries are now ubiquitous in our
    world. These batteries create an urban mine which have highly
    valuable finite materials, including lithium, nickel, and
    cobalt. No single mine includes all these critical battery
    materials. Our process is particularly exciting as we can
    recycle these batteries in an infinite loop without degrading
    the quality of the battery material.
        I am also proud to share that relative to mining and
    refining, our process can reduce emissions. So we can reduce
    missions of CO2 by up to 67 percent. We can also
    reduce water usage by up to 97 percent for every ton of battery
    that we recycle.
        Despite their value and importance, lithium-ion batteries
    have challenges. They have challenges around environmental and
    safety related topics. This includes the increasingly important
    topic of e-waste. Lithium batteries will undoubtedly create a
    tsunami of e-waste today and into the future.
        In the near and medium term, we need to address
    manufacturing scrap, which is the rejects in making batteries,
    which is being magnified by the clean energy transition. To
    support the growth of electrification, we need alternative,
    sustainable, domestic sources of supply, and we need these
    sources of supply to come online quickly.
        So recycled content should undoubtedly be a part of that
    solution for a number of reasons. First, responsible recycling
    creates a more sustainable, long term supply of materials that
    adds to a diverse energy ecosystem. Also, by doing that, we
    reduce our dependence on unstable foreign supply chains and
    supporting a completely localized battery industry to create a
    made in America battery.
        We help increase energy and economic independence in North
    America, and provide inherent benefits for national security
    concerns. And we mitigate risks associated with thermal events
    or fires as you spoke about.
        In closing, to help support a domestic sustainable closed
    loop battery supply chain and help reduce e-waste, we believe
    Congress should consider the following. First, clearly defined
    responsibility for the end of life management of batteries, to
    help ensure all batteries are in the best position to be
    collected, recycled, and kept in our supply chain.
        Second, create incentives to build and operate a network of
    battery collection centers for consumers, auto makers,
    dealerships, and more.
        Third, strongly discourage landfilling of lithium-ion
    batteries. As we have shown at Li-Cycle, we can recycle all
    types of lithium-ion batteries today at scale.
        Fourth, support and incentivize sustainable battery
    recycling. It is imperative that through recycling we don't
    lead to adverse environmental impacts. So it needs to be
    sustainable.
        Fifth, explore a requirement for minimum content for
    recycled material and new batteries made in the United States.
    This is actually a step which the European Union has already
    taken, and something that could be considered in the United
    States.
        Finally, Li-Cycle is supportive of clear and consistent
    guidance and regulations enabling the efficient movement of
    batteries and intermediate products. This is critical to our
    industry's ability to scale and address the growing amount of
    e-waste in the United States and globally.
        Thank you again for giving myself and Li-Cycle the
    opportunity to provide our perspective on this increasingly
    important topic. Thank you.
        [The prepared statement of Mr. Kochhar follows:]

        [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Senator Capito. Thank you, Mr. Kochhar.
        Next, we are joined by Craig Boswell, the co-founder and
    President of HOBI International. He has served in the
    electronics recycling industry for over 30 years.
        Mr. Boswell, welcome and thank you. You may proceed.

              STATEMENT OF CRAIG BOSWELL, P.E., PRESIDENT
            AND CO-FOUNDER, HOBI INTERNATIONAL, INCORPORATED

        Mr. Boswell. Thank you, Ranking Member Capito. It is an
    honor to be here today.
        I come here representing my company, HOBI International. I
    also represent thousands of electronics recycling companies in
    the United States. And I come representing the electronics
    recycling companies and the ITAD companies that are members of
    the Institute of Scrap Recycling Industries, ISRI.
        My company, HOBI International, has been in this business
    for nearly 30 years. We have seen tremendous change in the
    market over those 30 years. When we started, it was mainframes.
    Then it moved on to desktops, and now the explosion of mobile
    devices.
        One constant in that market through that whole time is the
    vital importance that electronics recycling plays in the
    information technology economy. Companies in the U.S. employ
    over 600,000 people recycling electronics, and globally, it is
    considered to be more than a $40 billion market.
        I would like to spend just a few minutes talking about what
    we do, why it matters, and then I would like to close with some
    challenges the industry is facing.
        Electronics recycling companies help make the electronic
    manufacturing supply chain more sustainable. We do this by
    testing, refurbishing, recovering, and erasing electronics for
    both consumers and companies.
        We also help companies meet their ESG goals. We do this by
    allowing them to reuse and recycle electronics. We also help
    with the social aspect. We run donation programs that take
    products off of their floors and put them into schools and
    homeless shelters.
        Electronics recycling companies also protect the personal
    data of millions of Americans every year. We have made
    tremendous investment and strides in data eradication
    technology. We have also developed certification standards like
    the R2 standard that allow both consumers and companies to
    validate that their processor has the right type of state of
    the art processes and procedures to take their equipment.
        And the industry is helping to bridge the digital divide.
    It is estimated that 460 million cell phones alone are put into
    reuse every year. Those products represent a low cost way for
    those in need or those in underdeveloped countries to become
    members of the global electronics marketplace.
        But we are experiencing some significant challenges. We
    have already mentioned this, but one of the growing challenges
    is embedded lithium-ion batteries. They are in everything from
    airpods to automobiles. What that has done is, gone are the
    days when these reach end of life, we just put them in a
    shredder for material recovery. Now those products have to be
    disassembled, largely manually, to extract the batteries before
    the critical materials that are in those products can be
    recovered.
        Dovetailing with that is the need for design for recycling.
    Our ability to recover these critical materials is largely
    determined when the product design leaves the R&D phase. It is
    critical that in designing these products sustainably that we
    look at the end of life of the product during the design phase.
    We have found that this is not only good for the bottom line of
    these companies, but it helps us recover these critical
    materials.
        Finally, changes in international trade law are a looming
    problem for the industry, especially here in the U.S. Starting
    January 1st, 2025, changes in the Basel Convention will take
    products that have been traditionally considered non-hazardous
    and move them into a hazardous category. This will force
    companies, when they try to move these materials
    internationally, to meet certain pre-determined requirements.
    It also requires you to be a party to the convention to trade
    with other parties internationally.
        What this is going to result in, the U.S. being a non-party
    to the convention, is a de facto trade ban for companies here
    in the U.S. This is a looming issue because the global market
    for electronics is what we depend on. This will isolate
    electronics recyclers in the U.S. from the remainder of the
    global market.
        So in summary, the electronics recycling industry is an
    essential part of the global market for sustainability going
    forward. We feel it is critical as you discuss policies for the
    future that we be involved in those discussions.
        Thank you for your time, and I look forward to your
    questions.
        [The prepared statement of Mr. Boswell follows:]

        [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Senator Capito. Thank you, Mr. Boswell.
        We will now turn to Kitty McIlroy, who serves as the
    President and Director of the Maryland Recycling Network, and
    is the project manager for the Northeast Maryland Waste
    Disposal Authority.
        Ms. McIlroy, thank you for coming.

              STATEMENT OF KITTY McILROY, PROJECT MANAGER,
              NORTHEAST MARYLAND WASTE DISPOSAL AUTHORITY

        Ms. McIlroy. Good morning, and thank you, EPW Committee. My
    name is Kitty McIlroy, and I am here to speak from my
    experience as a project manager for electronics recycling
    contracts at a State agency, the Northeast Maryland Waste
    Disposal Authority. I am also here as President of the Maryland
    Recycling Network to highlight where our network has identified
    room for policy improvement.
        I hope to provide some context for what exactly the public
    sector has been facing over the past 10 years regarding
    electronics.
        Why is electronics recycling needed? Waste rates are
    increasing, and many local governments in Maryland, for
    example, are already shipping waste out of State due to limited
    landfill capacity. Recovery of electronics is also a safety
    priority, since electronics, specifically lithium-ion
    rechargeable batteries, are more likely to cause facility fires
    if not separately collected and safely stored, due to impacts
    from compaction vehicles and equipment when moving waste.
        There are benefits to recovering our reliance on foreign
    supply, and mining operations, and instead, recovering these
    precious metals domestically since global demand continues to
    grow due to the jewelry, electronics, and auto industries.
        Keeping heavy metals from electronics out of landfill
    leachate is also beneficial, as there are costs to treating it
    at water treatment plants. Electronics recycling also
    contributes to local job growth, and when funded properly can
    eliminate disposal fees to local jurisdictions.
        How programs are currently managed. In Maryland and many
    States, most municipal electronics recycling is managed by
    local jurisdictions. Their existing infrastructure, drop off
    sites, staff, historical knowledge, public education, and
    procurement procedures allow them to run these programs
    efficiently. Some have even implemented curbside collection for
    electronics.
        However, electronics recycling is generally not cost free,
    especially for bulky TVs and computer monitors, which dominate
    the municipal stream. Managing hazardous components, such as
    lead and mercury, and providing on site capacity, storage,
    infrastructure, transportation, equipment, labor, and recycling
    certifications contribute to a net cost.
        Local jurisdictions in Maryland generally fund these
    programs through local taxes, general funds, enterprise funds,
    special revenue funds, and tipping fees. Twenty-five States
    plus the District of Columbia have a variety of electronics
    laws, some requiring funding and/or collection to be provided
    by manufacturers. The remaining States have no electronics
    laws.
        As it has been well documented in industry news over the
    past decade, many State laws fall short. Thus, the bulk of
    electronics end up at municipal drop offs, with the burden,
    operational obligation, and cost left to local government. This
    is especially true in Maryland. Over the past decade, many of
    these programs have closed in the State, or at least partially,
    due to a lack of funding, meaning that many governments are
    forced to landfill electronics, notably TVs and monitors, as
    the only alternative.
        Beginning calendar year 2014, after the electronics
    recycling market crashed, only four of eight Authority Members
    were able to continue their full programs, amounting to over 5
    million pounds a year of TVs and monitors landfilled, rather
    than recycled.
        For Authority Members, in fiscal year 2023 and 2022, it has
    cost over $900,000 a year to run these programs. Currently,
    only 7 of 23 counties in Maryland are able to provide permanent
    recycling for all electronics at no cost upon drop off for
    residents.
        Proven solutions that can function as a national model. No
    matter how well this market recovers, it will always be subject
    to unpredictable commodity markets, recession, and inflation.
    The public sector needs a sustainable source of funding,
    especially for rural communities that are far away from
    processors, and for jurisdictions with limited resources to
    manage full time programs. Many stakeholders believe we need a
    national solution.
        At a minimum, I believe we need a national, Congress
    chaired work group with reps from local and State government,
    non-profit EPR experts, recyclers, producers, retailers, and
    certification bodies to review existing best practices. The
    workgroup could look at replicating what works and provide a
    streamlined, cohesive set of policy recommendations.
        A few laws in States like Connecticut and California could
    provide this framework. They function exceptionally well in
    terms of funding and administration, including manufacturer,
    retailer, and recycler requirements. Some non-profits already
    administer programs on behalf of State departments and are
    experts in doing so, which could be explored nationally. There
    are certainly many in this field who would be willing to work
    on this.
        Thank you for your interest in taking this first step at
    improving our electronics recovery on a national level.
        [Due to size constraints Ms. McIlroy's prepared statement
    is not included in this hearing record but is available on this
    govinfo.gov Web site. The live, online link is https://
    www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CHRG-118hhrg54562/pdf/CHRG-
    118hhrg54562-add1.pdf]
        Senator Carper [presiding]. Ms. McIlroy, thanks so much.
        I apologize for having to be out of the room. We just
    nominated a judge for the Federal District Court in Delaware,
    and I needed to be there to introduce her to the Judiciary
    Committee. But I am glad I got to hear the end of your
    statement. I have read it, and look forward to doing the same
    with the statements from our other witnesses.
        I always like to make sure I pronounce people's names
    right. So I would pronounce your first name ``Charles.'' Your
    second name, however, is it Pellicane?
        Mr. Pellicane. Correct.
        Senator Carper. Very good.
        Executive Vice President of Business Development and
    Operations at Human-I-T. Mr. Pellicane has joined us today to
    share perspectives on reuse, on refurbishment, and equitable
    access.
        Please proceed, and we look forward to what you have to
    say, then we will ask some questions of all of you.
        Thank you.

          STATEMENT OF CHARLES  PELLICANE, EXECUTIVE  VICE
           PRESIDENT, BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT AND OPERATIONS,
           HUMAN-I-T

        Mr. Pellicane. Thank you, Chairman Carper, Ranking Member
    Capito, and distinguished members of the Committee, for this
    opportunity to testify before you today.
        My name is Charles Pellicane, and I am the Executive Vice
    President of Business Development and Operations at Human-I-T.
    Human-I-T is the country's largest digital equity organization,
    with 175 employees and interns in 10 States, primarily in
    California and Michigan. We are also an active member of the
    National Digital Inclusion Alliance, a AAA certified vendor
    with the National Association for Information Destruction, and
    a member of AFTRR, the Alliance for Technology Refurbishing and
    Reuse.
        While promoting digital equity is our primary focus, we
    sustain ourselves by providing IT Asset Disposition services,
    or ITAD services, to businesses and organizations. Thus, we
    solve two problems with one solution. We solve the problem of
    e-waste by partnering with corporations, government agencies,
    community groups, and other organizations to collect and
    process unwanted technology. We use refurbished technology and
    the revenues from that service to supply free and low cost
    computers and monthly Internet plans for students, seniors, and
    families.
        Because our model promotes reuse over recycling, we not
    only keep e-waste out of landfills, but we also create positive
    social impact in underserved communities. We hire from within
    the communities that we serve and in doing so we create unique,
    future proofed job opportunities.
        Our entry level employees receive hands on training in
    technology repair, IT, tech support, and e-commerce, and their
    roles come complete with full benefits, health insurance, paid
    time off, and a 403(b) retirement savings plan.
        Half of our team are in their early career, meaning they
    are 30 years old or younger; 80 percent are people of color;
    and more than a third are women working in a typically male
    dominated field. In many ways, Human I-T is a working example
    of how conscious capitalism can create equitable opportunities,
    develop work force skills, and reduce environmental impact, all
    at the same time. Every day, we work to empower people and
    protect the planet.
        Today, I am asking you to address the market's failures in
    recovering aging consumer electronics, advocate for reuse and
    circular economy policies, and support the Secure E-Waste
    Export and Recycling Act, and implement the Computers for
    Veterans and Students Act of 2022, also called the COVS Act.
        Currently in the United States of America, no single e-
    waste refurbisher or recycler can achieve significant market
    share due to a patchwork of State and local policies and the
    high costs associated with recovering, transporting, and
    processing electronics products. There is little to no extended
    producer responsibility, which puts the responsibility for
    recycling onto individual consumers instead of manufacturers.
        Nearly every city and State has a different approach. Many
    do not even consider electronics within their recycling goals
    and simply point consumers to hazardous waste facilities
    instead of a safe and easy collection site.
        At this time, it is not viable for Human I-T to scale our
    public facing collection services because the value of
    household consumer technology depreciates quickly and because
    of other factors like planned obsolescence, restrictive design
    features such as ``glues and screws,'' and the absence of a
    right to repair. As a result, as much as 65 percent of consumer
    electronics are not even recycled, let alone reused.
        Unfortunately, lack of recycling and reuse puts the United
    States in a troubling position. We are heavily reliant on
    imports of many materials, such as cobalt and lithium, which
    are essential for manufacturing advanced technologies. Supply
    chains for many of these minerals are vulnerable to various
    risks, such as foreign government actions. We can reduce our
    dependence on foreign supply chains by reusing and then
    recycling our electronics domestically.
        E-waste contains a significant amount of valuable metals,
    and also hazardous substances. Therefore, it is considered both
    as an economically sound secondary resource and an
    environmentally problematic one.
        When we think of electronics within a circular economy it
    is imperative to think of the inner loops of the circle, and
    not just the outermost loop of recycling. Those inner loops
    include maintaining devices and prolonging the life of
    technology, reusing and redistributing working devices, and
    refurbishing and remanufacturing non-working devices.
        According to the EPA Environmental Benefits Calculator, it
    is 25 times more beneficial environmentally to extend the life
    of electronic devices than to recycle them at 3 to 5 years of
    age. While at the same time, reusing first and then recycling
    relieves the pressure and reliance on the primary supply of
    critical minerals.
        Therefore, the proper recycling and processing of
    electronic waste presents an opportunity to stabilize the
    critical materials market and provide proper disposal and
    treatment of a hazardous waste stream. In doing so, we will
    ensure sufficient resources to meet today's needs and those of
    the future.
        You can help non-profit refurbishers like Human-I-T by
    funding public education to raise awareness on the importance
    of reducing e-waste. You can also pass policies to create a
    more circular economy such as Extended Producer Responsibility
    and the Right to Repair. Additionally, supporting the domestic
    markets by keeping resources local through implementing
    legislation like the Secure E-Waste and Recycling Act and the
    COVS Act.
        Additional information is included in my written testimony,
    and I am available to answer questions during this hearing or
    afterward.
        Thank you for your leadership in moving this important
    conversation forward. Together we can create a circular economy
    that strengthens our country and communities.
        [The prepared statement of Mr. Pellicane follows:]

        [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Senator Carper. Mr. Pellicane, thanks so much for that
    testimony.
        And to everyone else, thank you, too.
        My colleague, Senator Capito, has heard me quote Albert
    Einstein probably too much. A lot of people may remember the
    Einstein quote, what is the definition of insanity, do the same
    thing over and over again and expect a different result. That
    is a good quote. But my favorite is, in adversity lies
    opportunity. In adversity lies opportunity.
        How might that be relevant to this hearing today, Mr.
    Kochhar?
        Mr. Kochhar. Very relevant. Back when we started Li-Cycle
    in 2016, we were told we were way too early, running a science
    project, why are you recycling batteries when we are just
    talking about EVs on the road. So as you said, within a problem
    lies an opportunity. And to give you an idea of today's EVs,
    there is probably about $4,000 worth of value in that battery
    on average to be recovered. This year alone, that would be over
    $3 billion of value to be recovered, just from today's sales,
    this year.
        Thinking forward to 2030 and beyond, you are talking about
    tens of billions, hundreds of billions in our market. What is
    needed is technology to bridge that gap. So we recover lithium,
    which is a lot of the value in the batteries, and you have to
    tackle that, and it takes a long time.
        So I truly believe that, and that is the spirit of
    entrepreneurship.
        Senator Carper. Dr. Einstein would approve of your
    testimony, I am sure. Looking down and smiling.
        Mr. Boswell, same question. In adversity lies opportunity.
    Is that true in this sense?
        Mr. Boswell. I think it is very true. I want to thank you
    for your leadership on the Recycling Caucus.
        Senator Carper. Actually, we have a colleague from
    Arkansas, Senator Boozman, we are all in cahoots on this
    together.
        Mr. Boswell. Well, it is very meaningful to the industry.
    It really is very meaningful to the industry.
        And as you look at our industry, one of the things that is
    also changing in the electronics space is the generational
    differences as products come out, it is getting smaller and
    smaller. I am sure Apple wouldn't love for me to say that an
    iPhone 14 isn't that much different from an iPhone 13.
        What that is doing is increasing the opportunity for us to
    reuse products and to use those products to bridge the digital
    divide. So our industry has really shifted its focus on how we
    can reuse these products and extend their life. We have been
    very effective in doing that, because we can eradicate the
    data. And we are even developing operating systems that can
    build multi-generations back to allow these products to be
    deployed both domestically and internationally to help bridge
    that digital divide.
        So there is quite a bit of new opportunity evolving in the
    industry.
        Senator Carper. Great, thank you.
        Ms. McIlroy, same question. In this adversity we are
    talking about, is there opportunity? In the midst of all this
    adversity that we are talking about, is there opportunity? What
    might that be?
        Ms. McIlroy. It is a little bit different answer from the
    public sector. But yes, certainly I think there is opportunity.
    There are some of our member jurisdictions, or at least one
    specifically, that has already started a curbside collection
    program for electronics. I think if government starts looking
    at that option for maximum convenience for residents to
    recycle, I think it would be utilized in full.
        Right now, they have a great network of physical drop off
    centers. But not everybody wants to spend a Saturday dropping
    off an old TV. So I think a curbside collection option would be
    great.
        Senator Carper. OK, thanks.
        Mr. Pellicane, same question, please.
        Mr. Pellicane. Thank you.
        When we think about the opportunities from recycling
    electronics, the panel really spoke to job creation as well,
    but our organization represents that unique aspect of providing
    opportunity to some historically disadvantaged communities.
    Refurbishing electronics not only provides opportunity to those
    disadvantaged communities, because it is really an example of
    circular economy at work.
        When Human-I-T takes in technology with that focus on
    refurbishment, we are creating jobs for collecting,
    inventorying, processing, and shipping those electronics. And
    as I mentioned previously, for many of our employees, this is
    their first opportunity to work in the technology space. And a
    number will actually make this their career. We are very proud
    to have former employees to go on to work for a number of IT
    organizations, including at Google.
        Once that piece of technology is refurbished and we are
    able to give it to a person in need, this thing creates other
    opportunities. So this takes someone who was previously lacking
    in opportunity and gives them the ability to go to school, to
    take vocational courses, apply for jobs, and even start a
    business. So those persons now contribute to their local
    economies, which leads to of course the need and use of more
    technology.
        So in refurbishing electronics, this not only provides an
    initial person with a job, but that refurbished device then
    goes on to provide a multitude of opportunities to the
    recipient in addition to them being able to fully participate
    in our society through things like tele-health and online
    banking.
        Senator Carper. All right, thanks for that response.
        Senator Capito.
        Senator Capito. Thank you.
        Thank you all very much.
        Mr. Boswell, Ms. McIlroy actually kind of hit on this a
    little bit. I represent a rural State. We can't even sustain
    recycling much for paper or tin cans, things we have been doing
    for years, because the economic model is not there. How would
    you envision improving the accessibility of e-waste recycling
    to rural America? Do you have any suggestions there?
        Mr. Boswell. Yes, I think one thing that is unique about
    the electronics recycling space that is somewhat different than
    other recycling spaces is the barriers to entry are very low.
    My company, my sister and I started our company with a few
    thousand out of savings, and we used a borrowed desk in the
    back of somebody else's warehouse.
        So it is scalable. The vast majority of companies in the
    industry are very small, mom and pop operations. I think the
    key to making that work is allowing those entrepreneurs that
    are in these rural areas, I live in a rural area as well,
    probably not as pretty as West Virginia, but I live in a rural
    area.
        Senator Carper. Where do you live?
        Mr. Boswell. I live in Texas, beautiful State, by the way.
    I live in Tioga, Texas, a town of 500. We actually have a
    small, entrepreneurial business within 5 miles of my home that
    collects electronics in the local community.
        What we are doing through ISRI and SERI, the R2
    certification body, is we are creating training mechanisms to
    allow those smaller entrepreneurial businesses to learn how to
    properly eradicate data and also learn how to handle these
    materials safely. Because that really represents some of the
    barrier to entry, is making sure you know how to do it right.
    What we don't want is people doing it wrong for their local
    community. And these resources are available free of charge.
        Senator Capito. So would you say there is enough of an
    economic model at the very end to sustain these, obviously
    sustain these businesses?
        Mr. Boswell. Yes, where they develop that economic model is
    reuse. In rural communities, often you have a gap with people
    affording reasonable electronic products. They kind of bridge
    that gap between, let's say, the school and some of the
    community members to do that. It is always going to be small.
    When we started, we only worked a few miles around where we
    were. But it can be done at a very small scale. But it has to
    be done right. Because otherwise people won't trust to use that
    service.
        Senator Capito. Right.
        Let me ask you another question. In your testimony you
    mentioned, just for clarification for me, you mentioned that it
    would be helpful that when these products are being created
    that the consideration for the reuse and recycling should be on
    the front end rather than at the back end. Is that occurring
    now or not?
        Mr. Boswell. There have been some tremendous strides in
    that. ISRI has a Design for Recycling Award, and many of the
    winners, like Dell and Samsung, had been electronics companies.
    But the market is constantly changing, so we need that dialogue
    to be ongoing. The EPA has been instrumental in the past in
    bringing some of that dialogue to the floor, getting recyclers
    and manufacturers in the same room to feed that information
    back.
        So it is being done. But there is still a long way to go.
        Senator Capito. Yes, that makes sense, too.
        Mr. Kochhar, on your company, are you strictly dealing with
    EV batteries? Are you doing phones, too, and other things?
        Mr. Kochhar. We do all types of lithium batteries, phones,
    mobile appliances, vacuum cleaners, et cetera. So yes.
        Senator Capito. So you are constructing your first major
    recycling----
        Mr. Kochhar. So we are in a commercial operating phase, so
    we have a two phase model, so we basically break down the
    batteries, we shred them----
        Senator Capito. You are doing that now.
        Mr. Kochhar. Yes, and the key there is you don't have fire.
    So that is what the IPs are around, is how do you prevent that.
        Senator Capito. When you shred a battery, though, and try
    to recover the lithium, how do you do that?
        Mr. Kochhar. The first step is really physical separation.
    The issue in this industry is when you go into an e-waste
    process, like a traditional one, and Mr. Boswell spoke about
    that, you have an embedded battery in like a phone, right? You
    put it in a shredder, it is going to catch on fire.
        So what we do is we take that battery which would come from
    an e-waste group, and the way we shred is under a liquid, so
    basically you are preventing access to oxygen, it doesn't catch
    on fire. So we have four of those operating facilities today,
    generating intermediate material. Then the facility you are
    referring to is where we will extract the lithium from that
    intermediate material.
        Senator Capito. What about, Mr. Pellicane, I think it is
    interesting, your perspective with the reuse portions of it,
    and the statistic that you used on how much that would
    eliminate a lot of waste if we just simply reused or elongated
    the life of certain things. I went to the electronics show in
    Las Vegas last year, and the types of products that are, you
    have e-bikes, you have chips in your dishwasher, in your
    refrigerator, you are talking about massive appliances.
        Is the industry looking at this too? We have said a lot
    about phones and e-batteries. But there is a whole host of
    other products that really fall into this category.
        Mr. Pellicane. Yes, absolutely. Anything with a cord, a
    battery, can be recycled. You spoke to the growing kind of
    electrification of things. We also know the Internet of things
    as well, where you spoke to chips going into dishwashers and
    your refrigerators, so that these devices can talk to each
    other.
        But then that of course opens up issues, right? Those
    devices contain data and they also contain hazardous materials,
    as we have spoken to. So the industry is looking at those
    things. We as a refurbisher collect those things and then pass
    those on to those certified downstream recyclers that Craig
    spoke about.
        Senator Capito. Thank you.
        Senator Carper. Senator Ricketts, welcome back. You are on.
        We have a couple of recovering Governors on this panel, and
    the mother of maybe a future Governor on this panel.
        Senator Ricketts. One of the things I wanted to talk about
    was actually, when it comes to U.S. citizens, and we are
    talking about recycling their electronics, the privacy. There
    are literally hundreds of thousands of devices that get
    recycled every year. And there is little accountability or
    tracking with regard to where they go and what is happening to
    them.
        So Mr. Pellicane, I am going to ask you to maybe start on
    this first, and just talk a little bit about, what do you think
    is the threat, what is the risk for the 120,000 laptops,
    350,000 cell phones that get recycled every year? Are U.S.
    citizens' private information being put at risk with these
    devices being discarded in e-waste?
        Mr. Pellicane. There is definitely a risk there with that
    data being recycled, if it is not being handled properly, if it
    is not being handled by certified organizations. We are
    certified to the National Association of Information
    Destruction's AAA certification, which means that we handle
    that information properly.
        But if it is not being handled by the right collectors, by
    the right recyclers, that does create a risk, not only with
    that data being accessible, but also with the potential for
    counterfeits and other issues there as well. That is why we
    support the Secure E-Waste Export and Recycling Act to ensure
    that those products are handled domestically.
        Senator Ricketts. Also, it has been confirmed that
    counterfeit parts from China are ending up in critical defense
    systems here in the United States. Obviously, this is an issue
    that the Defense Department has long identified as presenting a
    legitimate threat to our Nation's readiness.
        Much of the material used in counterfeit electronic parts
    is e-waste shipped from the United States to the rest of the
    world, from around the rest of the world to China. This e-waste
    goes through a process known as blacktopping, where parts are
    made to look brand new to the naked eye. Then these products
    are resold on the marketplace.
        How do counterfeit parts make it into advanced U.S. missile
    systems and other military equipment undetected?
        Mr. Pellicane. You definitely speak to something that is
    particularly concerning and definitely was one of the impetuses
    for that Secure Electronics Export and Recycling Act that has
    recently been introduced. I am not an expert in that area of
    how those items are ending up in our systems, and would have to
    defer to those experts. But I would definitely look to provide
    you with that information after the hearing.
        Senator Ricketts. Do you have any ideas on what things we
    could further be doing to make sure that this doesn't happen,
    that we don't end up with these counterfeit parts from
    Communist China?
        Mr. Pellicane. Yes, that is where, again, I will point to
    that Secure E-Waste Export and Recycling Act that was
    introduced in the House, and obviously continuing to follow
    that legislation as it moves forward.
        Senator Ricketts. OK.
        Do any of our other witnesses have any thoughts on what we
    can do to prevent this?
        Yes, please go ahead.
        Mr. Boswell. Yes. So counterfeit parts are an issue. I
    actually come from the defense electronics background, used to
    be on the Harpoon Missile Program. So obviously we were very
    sensitive to the high quality of our parts.
        I will say that with the growing complexity of integrated
    circuits, in my company we try to recover parts for repair and
    recycling. And it is very, very difficult, re-balling a ball
    grid array takes extremely difficult procedures. We have
    actually found it is better to just go buy new parts than to
    try to recover the parts.
        I think what you will see in China is a lot of those
    counterfeit parts are really commercial grade parts made at
    poor facilities that are remarked because it is just too
    expensive to take these parts and actually get them to new
    condition. It is a significant challenge to do that.
        Hopefully in the future, we will get better at recovering
    ICs, because it would actually be much more sustainable. To
    combat that, at least, when I was in the defense business, 100
    percent testing on parts was something that we required.
        Senator Ricketts. Yes, because if you are trying to
    refurbish these things and it is not in a super clean room, it
    is just a small particle of dust can----
        Mr. Boswell. Even worse is on a ball grid array, the
    connections are so close together, and you have to get those
    each re-balled. And it is a very, very difficult and expensive
    process.
        Senator Ricketts. So I take it when you say that you are
    asking for all these parts to 100 percent testing of the parts,
    that is now happening for some of these parts that are going
    into some of these advanced systems in the Defense Department?
        Mr. Boswell. One hundred percent testing would, and again,
    I am no expert, and I can provide you more information at a
    later time, but 100 percent testing, at least in our situation,
    and this is a few years back, would reveal the difference
    between a commercial and a defense grade part.
        Senator Ricketts. But is it accurate to say that if the
    Defense Department was having a problem with this thing, they
    were not doing 100 percent testing?
        Mr. Boswell. I can't answer that question.
        Senator Ricketts. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Senator Carper. You bet.
        We have been joined by one of the two retired Navy captains
    who serve on this Committee. We have a Marine colonel over
    here.
        Mark, we have just been talking about, Mr. Boswell has been
    talking about the Harpoon Missile Program, which apparently you
    were a part of. When I was in P3 aircraft mission command, we
    used to carry Harpoons. So that brought a smile to my face.
        All right, Mark, welcome. Thanks.
        Senator Kelly. We could carry them on the A-6 Intruder that
    I used to fly. Actually carried one, I never had an opportunity
    to shoot it.
        Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        I want to address our domestic source of critical minerals.
    Securing them is incredibly important. It is not just to
    support growing domestic industries like battery manufacturing,
    but also for our national and economic security, and our
    foreign adversaries, China and Russia, control the vast
    majority of certain critical mineral supply chains. And we have
    seen in recent months that they are willing to utilize that
    control to apply pressure on us.
        For example, earlier this month, China announced that it
    would restrict the export of gallium and germanium products to
    the United States. This is a critical mineral used in
    microchips, in defense systems, and renewable energy systems.
    This is just one example of a critical mineral that is
    controlled by our adversaries.
        So I am glad we have an opportunity to dive into this
    hearing today to discuss one strategy that we have to reduce
    our reliance on supply chains which need to cross an ocean. And
    that is reusing critical minerals from existing devices.
        In fact, about a month or so ago, a couple months ago, I
    had the opportunity to visit with the Secretary of Energy,
    Secretary Granholm, one of Li-Cycle's recycling spokes. This
    factory, I would call it, or facility, is located in Gilbert,
    Arizona.
        I am glad that Mr. Kochhar is able to join us today and
    share more about his work and what the company is doing in
    Arizona and across the country to recapture and reuse critical
    minerals in batteries and other devices. It is pretty
    fascinating, what you are able to do.
        And if scaled up, this process can be a win-win for our
    country. These companies will create great paying manufacturing
    jobs here at home, and they will reduce our dependence on
    critical minerals from abroad, and help us scale up our
    renewable energy economy.
        Mr. Kochhar, it is good to see you again. Can you start off
    by discussing how much e-waste will be disposed of in the
    coming years? Do we have the capacity in the United States
    right now to recapture and reuse all these materials?
        Mr. Kochhar. Thanks, Senator. The short answer is no, we
    don't have enough capacity to deal with these materials
    domestically. In fact, I often get asked, who is your biggest
    competition? Well, our biggest competition is actually shipment
    to Asia. People ask about company names; it is really that.
        We have a lot of groups that are brokering, trading these
    materials, leaking it from the United States. I think an
    objective should be that if we make it here, we should use it
    here and recycle it here. I think that would be a way to keep
    these critical materials in the supply chain.
        Now, what is the gap? The gap is around domestic solutions,
    to actually do that economically. So that is what we are doing.
    But also recovering things like lithium, which is what we focus
    on, a lot of the value.
        So just some stats quickly. This year, probably 100,000
    tons of batteries alone, lithium-ion batteries alone in the
    United States need recycled. Our capacity today as a country is
    probably 30,000 tons. So it is far from the mark, and it is
    growing very fast every year.
        Senator Kelly. It was a fascinating visit. They chop up
    these batteries, and they have processes that pull out not only
    the lithium, but the cobalt sulfite, the nickel sulfite,
    magnesium carbonate, and other materials, and then just sell
    them to manufacturers of batteries. It is really a win for
    everybody.
        Have companies like yours benefited from the Bipartisan
    Infrastructure Law and the Inflation Reduction Act?
        Mr. Kochhar. Tremendously benefited. I thank Congress for
    the work that has been done, and the Senate. We have seen a big
    acceleration in terms of the demand for these materials, and
    actual domestic activity. One of our challenges has been, how
    do we get it back into the supply chain here, our downstream?
    If it is not there, they are going to be shipping it overseas.
    So that has been great.
        As I mentioned in my remarks, we have a $375 million loan
    commitment from the DOE, which we are very appreciative of. We
    are already doing it, but this just helps to accelerate what we
    are doing.
        Senator Kelly. And that loan guarantee is helping you scale
    the company?
        Mr. Kochhar. Yes, that is our facility in Rochester, which
    is where we will extract that lithium, nickel, cobalt, which is
    the key part of what we are doing.
        Senator Kelly. Any additional steps that you think Congress
    should be focused on to ensure that e-waste which can be
    recycled does not end up in a landfill?
        Mr. Kochhar. Yes. I think what I said regarding leakage of
    material to Asia is something that needs to be looked at. It is
    kind of a hidden thing happening. It needs companies to step
    forward and actually build, like we are doing. But there are
    policy initiatives that could help around that. And there is a
    range of things we are going to have to support there in terms
    of being a resource.
        Senator Kelly. Thank you for being here today, and thank
    you, Mr. Chairman.
        Senator Carper. Senator Kelly, thank you for being here
    today and for adding to this hearing.
        Senator Sullivan, welcome. We are glad you are here.
        Senator Sullivan. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate the
    witnesses here.
        I want to begin with a basic question. I think it is one
    that increasingly everybody is coming to an agreement on, which
    is if we have critical minerals in the United States that we
    should try to mine them and process them here as opposed to
    relying on China. Is that generally agreement? I see everybody
    nodding their heads.
        Then part of that is because we have the highest standards
    on the environment in the world, certainly in Alaska we do. It
    is a never ending source of frustration despite that kind of
    broad based policy consensus, Biden administration in so many
    areas in my State at least, when they see critical minerals or
    mining opportunities, they shut them down. You guys don't have
    to comment on that.
        I am meeting with the BLM director in my office tomorrow.
    She and Secretary Haaland have just been targeting Alaska
    incessantly. It is unbelievable. We have a place called the
    Ambler Mining District, copper, cobalt, zinc, silver, gold,
    other metals, probably the biggest, one of the biggest mining
    deposits on the planet Earth. We did an EIS during the Obama
    administration, into the Trump administration, got a record of
    decision, 6 years, $10 million, I think it was.
        Same day the President of the United States holds a
    critical mineral summit at the White House on the importance of
    critical minerals, the Department of Interior reverses the
    record of decision and tells Alaskans to start over. So I am
    going to have a little discussion with Tracy Stone-Manning in
    my office tomorrow saying, this is nuts, nuts. This is just a
    pro-China, anti-environment, anti-American policy. That is what
    they are doing. Anti-environment, because China trashes our
    environment. Alaska has the highest standards in the world.
        Anyway, I just had to rant about that, because it is just
    crazy, crushing jobs in my State. And it is driven by the
    radical left. So Tracy Stone-Manning and I are going to have a
    nice chat about that tomorrow.
        But let me go back to this other issue, friend shoring not
    only the production of critical minerals, but the electronic
    waste recycling and reuse, especially given some of the
    security concerns.
        I will just open this up to all the witnesses. How do we do
    that better? In the electronic waste recycling, if we can't do
    it all here, and I agree with that previous comment, that we
    are doing that within the collection of our strong allies, and
    yes, making sure China is not in that loop, because then we
    become vulnerable.
        What is the best way to do that? And I am assuming
    everybody on the panel of witnesses agrees with the importance
    of doing that.
        Mr. Kochhar, we will start with you and then just go down
    the line.
        Mr. Kochhar. Yes, I think there are two sides to it. I
    think on the corporate side, company side, we need innovation.
    We started our company 7 years ago, because we didn't see a
    path for recycling lithium. And as Senator Kelly mentioned, we
    also get nickel and cobalt kinds of things, too.
        So it is a long journey. It is not easy.
        Senator Sullivan. Are you taking those supplies all over
    the world?
        Mr. Kochhar. It is interesting. The batteries are
    everywhere, so we basically get them locally, from where we
    are. We are in New York, Alabama, Arizona, so we get them
    locally from around that area. Also, the making of battery
    kicks off scrap. So I think a big part of it is what do
    companies need to do to step forward.
        On the policy side, I think some of the steps that have
    been taken are very helpful to incentivize. But there are
    aspects, as I mentioned, around leakage of material that need
    to be looked at. It is not just in batteries, it is in e-waste,
    it is in other industries. We have to be practical about it,
    you can't stifle companies at the same time, that is difficult.
    But that is a big threat. We have seen it in our industry, 90
    percent plus of lithium, nickel, cobalt, all heading through
    China.
        So we need to build it here. That is a corporate
    responsibility. But there needs to be the right policy
    environment to help support that.
        Senator Sullivan. OK, good.
        Mr. Boswell.
        Mr. Boswell. I agree that there is a tremendous--well, let
    me step back 1 minute for Senator Ricketts. I misspoke. It is
    required to be 100 percent test, according to the 2012 NDAA.
    That was one of the reasons to do that, to protect against that
    problem.
        But yes, this is a global industry, and there are global
    supply chains involved. But we are developing a tremendous
    infrastructure here in the United States to recycle and reuse
    these products. Companies like mine are constantly looking for
    new ways to make that path easier for consumers.
        One of the things I think there is a lack of understanding
    of is that this is done at a very high level and very
    technically. I think the historic impression of our industry
    was that they are a junk guy. And we are not junk guys.
        In fact, in some ways what we do is far more technical than
    the manufacturers, because we have to handle everything from an
    Apple iPhone to a Cisco router. We have done that by tremendous
    investment in technologies to not only erase these products,
    but also to refurb them.
        We do come up against issues sometimes with the
    manufacturers where they don't support the reuse market. A lot
    of the economics of electronics recycling is based on reuse. An
    item like an iPhone is worth 15, 20, 30 times more, 100 times
    more in some cases as a reusable product than it is a recycled
    product for the material recovery.
        So the economics of reusing it support much of what we do.
        Senator Sullivan. OK, thank you.
        Mr. Chairman, I just have two other witnesses, if they can
    just quickly respond to that question. I am over my time.
        Senator Carper. Go ahead.
        Ms. McIlroy. I will go quickly.
        Senator Carper. Take your time.
        Ms. McIlroy. Really, there is a vast network of
    underutilized collection sites in the country right now. Local
    governments are collecting the majority of municipal electronic
    waste. And a lot of that, if they don't have the local budget
    to support it, it is going to end up in their landfill.
        So if we were able to get a sustainable source of funding
    to them, you would see an exponential increase in what we would
    be capturing nationally. I think that is really important to
    focus on.
        Senator Sullivan. Good, thank you.
        Mr. Pellicane.
        Mr. Pellicane. I agree with my peers on continuing to drive
    private and public partnership, to drive awareness of the issue
    and to also create the collection and processing
    infrastructure. Ultimately really deferring to the EPA's
    sustainable materials management approach, use materials in the
    most productive way with an emphasis on using less, reducing
    toxic chemicals and environmental impacts throughout the
    material life cycle, and assuring that we also have sufficient
    resources to meet today's needs and those of the future.
        Senator Sullivan. Great.
        Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Senator Carper. You bet. Thanks so much for being here.
        I understand that you and Senator Whitehouse are partnering
    on some of the aspects of what we are talking about here today.
    That is good.
        Senator Sullivan. Yes, sir, I am continuing to do that with
    him.
        Senator Carper. Great. Thanks.
        Mr. Kochhar, your name has been pronounced several ways
    today, what do your parents call themselves?
        Mr. Kochhar. You got it, sir.
        Senator Carper. All right, thank you. Are your parents
    still alive?
        Mr. Kochhar. Yes, they are.
        Senator Carper. When you are asked, does your mom ever say,
    what do you really do? When she says that, what do you tell
    her?
        [Laughter.]
        Mr. Kochhar. Yes, I think they are still trying to figure
    it out, from what I can tell.
        [Laughter.]
        Senator Carper. I will tell her you are doing something
    good for the country.
        Mr. Kochhar. We hope.
        Senator Carper. And for the planet, I think.
        In your testimony, you mentioned industry's need for clear
    and consistent regulations that govern the movement of
    batteries and recovered materials to and from battery recycling
    facilities. That interstate movement of materials is
    predominantly regulated by provisions in the Resource
    Conservation and Recovery Act, affectionately known as RCRA
    around here, which governs the disposal of solid and hazardous
    waste.
        Given the technological advancements that have occurred in
    I think about a half-century since RCRA was enacted into law,
    as well as the development of new industries such as lithium-
    ion battery recycling, do you feel that existing Federal laws
    currently provide the direction that Li-Cycle needs to operate
    domestically?
        Mr. Kochhar. Yes, I think with any growing industry, you
    are going to have a whole host of emerging issues. I think that
    is what we are experiencing in not only e-waste and the
    substantive e-waste being lithium-ion batteries, and also of
    course in EVs. There are some very practical things, how do you
    move these materials, what are they classified as. We take in
    battery input of all types, everything from small batteries in
    your phone to battery manufacturing scrap. And then we make
    these intermediate products that Senator Kelly was talking
    about that he has seen, which contains the cathode, the anode
    from the material, the copper, the aluminum.
        So we make our way through. But as you can imagine, and I
    just alluded to, these regulations were written for a very
    different world. This innovation had not happened at the time.
        So I think there are some known areas that need
    clarification. We support regulatory clarification around this.
    It will help the industry to scale and address this issue of e-
    waste. We are happy to be a resource as you folks look at that.
        Senator Carper. A follow up question, and I think I may
    have answers already. What clarifications or updates to
    existing statutes would help create a reliable environment for
    private investments and job creation in the recycling sector? I
    think you may have responded; you have already spoken to that.
    Anything else you want to add?
        Mr. Kochhar. Yes, I think it is really around the
    classification of what is a waste, what is a product, what does
    it derive from. Within waste, there are different
    classifications. These are very valuable materials. I quoted
    there very quickly before, $4,000 an EV battery that can be
    recovered through the materials. These are valuable, critical
    material resources. They are richer than any mine, and they are
    available above ground.
        So that is the area that needs a lot of clarification. We
    support getting some added regulatory certainty around that.
        Senator Carper. Good. Thank you.
        Mr. Kochhar. Thank you.
        Senator Carper. Ms. Kitty, I was surfing on television last
    night, getting ready to go to bed. Before I went to bed, I
    thought I would look for some news on television. As I went
    along, I came across a rerun of a show called Gunsmoke, which
    Senator Capito is too young to remember. But as recently as
    last night, I heard your name. And how ironic is that, now I
    hear Harpoon Missiles, going back in time.
        Senator Capito, would you like to jump in? You are welcome,
    and I have some more questions. Feel free.
        Senator Capito. Yes, I just have one issue. I talked about
    it in my opening statement, that is the potential for fire with
    the lithium-ion batteries.
        Ms. McIlroy, how are you all handling that in Maryland?
    Then I will ask everybody else if they have some suggestions
    here.
        Ms. McIlroy. I think there are a couple of ways to answer
    that. Right now, I think local governments are in sort of a
    reactive position. I know they have taken measures to do, for
    example, site checks of their electronics that are stored on
    their collection sites at the end of each day, just to ensure
    that something hasn't short circuited to cause that fire.
        What I have heard is sometimes maybe more often at some
    sites than others. Others, they will leave for the day and the
    fire will start slowly, then they will see video footage of
    overnight fire that has spread from electronics.
        That is more of an incident when it is sitting in a stored
    container. But I think the biggest issue is when these
    electronics are being put in the waste stream by residents, and
    they are being compacted on the tipping floor, when the trash
    truck unloads.
        Right now, they are mainly just having to react to that.
    They are told to have fire departments basically on call. Some
    sites are training their employees to use the fire
    extinguishers that are on site. Some are told to wait because
    of the potential chemical concerns, to wait for the actual fire
    department. So I think it is kind of all over the place with
    how people are reacting to this.
        I had another point, but it slipped my mind. So I will end
    with that.
        Senator Capito. Mr. Kochhar, you said in either your
    testimony or your response that you have a different method for
    preventing the fire. I guess water is not what you put on a
    lithium battery fire. How would you respond to that, and how do
    we eliminate that risk?
        Mr. Kochhar. I think there are a couple of areas.
    Particularly in e-waste, it is really hard, because the
    batteries are embedded in the devices. I think of old Nokia
    phones, you could take the battery out. You can't do that
    anymore, it is waterproof almost in some ways, usually.
        So that is the first step, and companies like Mr. Boswell's
    have to deal with that. Then we get the lithium-ion battery
    feed.
        Now, the way we shred is under immersion of a liquid. This
    part of it we have patented, but it basically prevents fire.
    But we know what we are getting, we are set up to handle this
    material. But in other cases, they are not. That is where the
    issue arises, if is you don't know, then you have the potential
    for fire.
        Senator Capito. Mr. Boswell, do you have a response to the
    fire potential?
        Mr. Boswell. Yes, I think the point he makes is valid.
    Companies in this industry that have had to deal with this
    problem, we are making a lot of strides in doing this safely,
    investing in training. ISRI provides training on how to handle
    batteries safely. Our companies themselves, we make a focus on
    how our employees should handle them safely.
        The biggest issue is when they get into a stream other than
    to an e-waste processor. I think is some of the education funds
    that were out there, and infrastructure for recycling, it would
    be well served to help educate the public on the difference
    between the electronics recycling stream and the municipal
    recycling stream.
        Senator Capito. Right.
        Mr. Pellicane, do you have a comment?
        Mr. Pellicane. Yes, to just echo the sentiments of my
    colleague, Craig. As a non-profit refurbisher, we follow all
    local ordinances as well as industry best practices. But as
    Craig speaks to the issues, of course, when our employees that
    are trained, or employees like HOBI's organization that are
    trained are handling those. So really investing in that public
    awareness that Craig spoke to.
        Also the infrastructure that Kitty spoke to, to be able to
    handle those things within municipalities.
        Senator Capito. I would like to thank all of you. I am
    going to admit, when we had the topic of our hearing, I
    thought, is this going to be very interesting? And you know, it
    is very interesting. Because it really impacts everybody at
    every level, here in government, obviously, but in our garages
    and our closets and other places.
        It is only going to get worse. I think the economic model
    has got to be there. I like the idea of a lot more reuse rather
    than just removing it and disposing of it. Because that is
    never going to get any better, either. And it is just going to
    accumulate.
        Any way we can be supportive, I will take your suggestions.
        Mr. Kochhar, you lined out some really interesting ones,
    and Mr. Boswell got into the trade issue, which sounds like an
    enormous issue and could be quite painful to fix as well.
        I want to thank you all very much. I appreciate it. Thanks
    for coming in.
        Senator Carper. I think this is a wonderful hearing. We
    have a lot going on in the Senate, the committees and so forth.
    So members are pulled in a lot of different directions today. I
    love this hearing. I am delighted that you are all here
    participating.
        Senator Capito and I work on a bunch of stuff together. And
    this is going to be a great one. So thank you.
        If I could, a question for Ms. McIlroy, please. It deals
    with municipal programs, which you talked a little bit about
    already. You mentioned in your testimony that consumers
    predominantly dispose of electronics at municipal drop off
    sites. My question is, what is the benefit of having municipal
    programs collect electronics for recycling, and how do
    municipal programs compare to manufacturers' take back
    programs?
        Ms. McIlroy. The benefits of it are that local government
    is already doing the majority of this collection and
    contracting for recyclers. So they already have the expertise,
    it is pretty streamlined at this point. It is just whether or
    not they have the funding to do it.
        Another benefit is because the general public is already, I
    would say, well trained. They know to look up their
    jurisdiction's program if they have an end of life electronic
    that they need to get rid of. Trying to retrain the public to
    look on a manufacturer's website to find the specific
    information for that one device that they need to get rid of, I
    don't think that is realistic. That again would put a burden on
    local government employees, because they would still have to be
    training the public on that.
        Either way, they would still have to be heavily involved,
    and it would take a lot of their time to still continue the
    management of electronics, whether or not it is actually ending
    up at their site. There would still be a big component that
    they would have to do public education wise.
        From my perspective, I would feel uncomfortable not having
    the ability to do due diligence when I am contracting, doing a
    procurement for a recycler. If that is left to just
    manufacturers and the public isn't really involved in the
    procurement process, reviewing the financials, the
    certifications, going on site to these recyclers and seeing it
    in person and having the ability to audit and look at their
    downstream recycler's information, I don't think that would be
    a good trend to move toward. Because I don't know how much
    control public entities would have at that point if the
    programs are just manufacturer run.
        Senator Carper. Should we require manufacturers to pay into
    municipal collection programs?
        Ms. McIlroy. My personal opinion is yes. Within the
    Maryland Recycling Network, we are looking at, with some local
    elected officials, updating the current Maryland law to
    potentially do some sort of hybrid manufacturer funded model
    with potentially a consumer fee. Those are existing laws in
    other States that run on both of those models. We are looking
    at maybe updating what is in Maryland to see if we could do a
    blend of that, to basically take the financial pressure off of
    local government and put that burden on manufacturers and
    consumers.
        Senator Carper. I am going to go back to the first question
    I asked, Ms. McIlroy. I am going to repeat it and ask other
    witnesses if they would like to make a comment as well.
        What is the benefit of having municipal programs collect
    electronics for recycling? And the second half is, how do
    municipal programs compare to manufacturers' take back
    programs? Do you have any thoughts on that? If you do, fine, if
    you don't, that's OK.
        Mr. Boswell. I can say that creating avenues for consumers
    to do this conveniently is very important. You can look at the
    parallels, for instance, for the rechargeable batteries.
    Rechargeable batteries have multiple collection points, every
    Home Depot store, every Lowe's store is a place you can bring
    back a rechargeable battery, as well as a lot of municipal
    recycling alternatives.
        So those multiple pronged approaches give consumers the
    most options possible. I think the issue you run into when you
    look at manufacturer funding is, we have run into situations,
    especially in electronics, there is probably more EPR in
    electronics than anything else in this country. We have seen
    some disastrous effects of that as there was no producer
    responsibility organizations that involved recyclers, that
    looked at what is a reasonable fee, what should this reasonably
    cost, rather than driving to the lowest cost alternative, which
    ended up creating CRT stockpiles in almost every State. Because
    the lowest cost alternative was the guy who said, I will take
    them, I will take whatever you pay me per pound, I will stick
    them in a warehouse, and I will figure it out later. That
    created a bigger problem than we had in the first place.
        Senator Carper. OK.
        Senator Capito, I have a couple more questions, but why
    don't you go ahead?
        Senator Capito. I have completed my questions, thank you.
        Senator Carper. All right, thanks.
        I have a question for Mr. Boswell on the Basel Convention.
    I know you are aware that the United States is I think the only
    developed country not a party to the Basel Convention, a
    national agreement that governs the transportation of hazardous
    waste between nations.
        How has the United States' failure to ratify the Basel
    Convention impacted the electronics recycling industry over the
    last 20 or 30 years? Also, how will the United States be
    affected by the new Swiss-Ghana amendment to the Basel
    Convention, which establishes new definitions for hazardous and
    non-hazardous electronic waste?
        Mr. Boswell. This is the looming problem, the guillotine
    that is over the industry's head right now. January 1st, 2025,
    when Swiss-Ghana comes into effect, us being a non-party to the
    convention, we will essentially have only one trade partner
    outside of the U.S., and that will be Canada, because we do
    have a bilateral in place with Canada right now.
        Hopefully we will get an agreement in place with OECD
    before that date. But this is a global market. The example I
    always like to use is, we do a lot of phones. Apple phones are
    dominant in the U.S., so everybody wants an Apple phone here.
    Android phones are much more popular in the rest of the world.
    I can get 22 percent more for a Google Pixel in the Middle East
    and Europe than I can in the U.S.
        Come 2025, if that Google Pixel maybe has a cracked screen
    or something else that they would lump it in now, under Basel,
    if you drop your phone, it is now a hazardous material, because
    you cracked the screen. We would not be able to participate in
    those markets.
        So I think in the short term, because it is coming so
    quickly, we would support bilaterals with key partners, trade
    partners and the OECD change would make a big change. But in
    the long term, yes, it looms as a problem for the industry.
        Senator Carper. I think my last question will be a question
    for the entire panel, for all four of you. And again, I think I
    speak for Senator Capito and my other colleagues as well on our
    Committee. We have really enjoyed this conversation, and
    welcomed this conversation about the good work that all of you
    are doing to address what is a really critical issue of
    electronic waste. But a promising issue as well.
        I am encouraged to hear from the four of you who are as
    committed to this issue, frankly, as we are. We appreciate your
    work to make sure that we leave behind a planet that is not
    just as good as, but maybe even better than the one we
    inherited from our parents and grandparents.
        I want to give each of you the opportunity to share with us
    maybe two or three key actions that you think Congress should
    consider to improve electronics circularity, shore up our
    domestic supply of critical minerals, and address the link
    between reuse and providing access to digital products that
    fuel modern life.
        Let me say that again. I want to ask each of you to share
    with us two or three key actions that Congress should consider
    to improve electronics circularity, shore up our domestic
    supply of critical minerals, and address the link between reuse
    and providing access to digital products that fuel modern life.
        Mr. Pellicane, would you like to go first?
        Mr. Pellicane. Thank you.
        As I mentioned in my testimony and as Senator Capito spoke
    to as well, there is a lack of awareness, there is poor
    collection infrastructure, and there is national security
    concerns all tied into this issue of e-waste. So really, those
    three areas are the key actions we can take to address it. It
    is funding public education to raise awareness on the
    importance of reducing e-waste.
        As we have spoken to here today, nearly everyone has that
    old drawer or box on the shelf in the garage with a stack of
    broken laptops or a bunch of old cell phones. That is an
    indicator of a broken system. So informing people of the
    methodology to do that, and ensuring that that is out there is
    important.
        Additionally, recently the Broadband Equity Access and
    Deployment and Digital Equity Act were passed. And that
    implementation of broadband infrastructure is going to lead to
    a huge increase in demand for free and affordable devices.
    There has never been a more critical time to open up new
    pipelines of devices for low income people to obtain and
    benefit from.
        We can do that by raising awareness and increasing our
    infrastructure around collecting and reusing those devices. We
    can't think that just because we put that broadband
    infrastructure out there that people will access it. We need to
    give them the capability to do that with devices, Internet
    assistance, technical support, and digital literacy.
        Additionally, Congress can pass policies, as we spoke
    about, to create a more circular economy, such as extended
    producer responsibility and the right to repair, really
    recognizing that the establishment of effective e-waste
    collection mechanisms includes the collection and processing of
    e-waste is critical, and that that infrastructure is different
    than your typical recycling infrastructure.
        As we spoke about here today, making devices more easily
    refurbishable in general, and ensuring that any right to repair
    legislation includes non-profit organizations as well.
        Finally, we spoke today about supporting domestic markets
    by keeping resources local through implementing legislation
    like the Secure E-Waste Exports and Recycling Act, and also the
    COVS Act. Really, there is that national security importance
    that we need to recognize, and that there is an ability to
    create jobs through the proper collection of those items while
    at the same time reducing our dependence on imported minerals.
        Senator Carper. That is a pretty good to do list. One of
    the things I look for is repetition. Sometimes people say,
    well, I don't want to repeat something someone has already
    said. Repetition is good, especially in a setting like this. So
    feel free to repeat if you would like.
        Ms. McIlroy.
        Ms. McIlroy. I am going to second the exploring the EPR
    policies. Specifically, I really do think that we could be
    successful with a Senate or Congress led work group to look at
    our high performing State laws in this country. I would say
    there aren't that many of them, but there are some that stand
    out.
        Senator Carper. Like find out what works, do more of that?
    Learn from mistakes, laboratories of democracy.
        Ms. McIlroy. Yes. And I think we want to make sure, as was
    mentioned earlier, we do not want to leave recyclers out of the
    conversation. I know that there are some States on the East
    Coast where I have talked to recyclers that were struggling
    when their programs were supposed to be funded by State laws,
    but didn't end up happening in reality, and they were left
    holding the bag, or local government was.
        So I think there are some really good models out there, and
    I think as long as everybody is involved, we could probably
    come up with a good solution.
        Senator Carper. Thank you.
        Mr. Boswell.
        Mr. Boswell. I certainly want to echo education. I think
    there is a lot of room here, and it needs to go beyond just
    hey, these products are recyclable. I think one of the
    fallacies, we have mentioned it countless times here, is that
    people believe their data is safer in their drawer than with my
    company. I can tell you, in your drawer, somebody would say,
    wow, that is $75 on eBay, your 14 year old takes it, sells it
    on eBay, and your data is gone.
        You send it to us, and within days, maybe even hours, that
    data is really gone. Because when we erase it, it is gone from
    everywhere. It is non-recoverable.
        I think a second thing, it is important that we understand
    that these products, and we say e-waste, but this is not waste.
    These are products that can be reused. These are valuable,
    critical materials that we can recover from the products. So we
    sometimes use that waste moniker and we put a burden on the
    industry around that moniker that makes it more cumbersome and
    costly for us to move these materials.
        Finally, the trade is going to be a huge issue. Our
    solutions for companies here in the U.S. to still participate
    in the global market are very, very important for the industry.
        Senator Carper. Thank you for that.
        Mr. Kochhar. In the spirit of keeping it to repetition, I
    will repeat the top three from my recommendations. First, I
    think there needs to be an assessment of this leakage issue
    that I talked about around, not only batteries but also e-
    waste, in the spirit of making it here, using it here and
    recycling it here, that is No. 1.
        No. 2 is around regulatory clarity on the movement of
    batteries, materials, the intermediate products. Again, it is a
    new industry. So that will take some public-private
    conversation to figure that out.
        The third would be considering steps that other
    jurisdictions have taken, such as minimum recycled content in
    new batteries. It needs to be adjudicated well that it is not
    overly ambitious, but you can get to a path where it creates an
    incentive to get there.
        Thank you very much.
        Senator Carper. Before we close out, Senator Capito, any
    last thoughts?
        Senator Capito. No, I just want to express again my
    gratitude for you all for being here today, to continue our
    work. Thank you.
        Senator Carper. In closing, let me thank each of you for
    joining us today, for appearing and for your testimony. I also
    want to thank you for what you do with your lives. We want to
    thank you for what you do with your lives. There are some
    people out in the audience sitting behind you that I would like
    to thank as well for what they are doing in this important
    effort.
        I believe we have had an important and I think an inspiring
    discussion today about the impacts of electronic waste and the
    role that recycling is playing and can play in shoring up our
    domestic supply of critical materials and minerals.
        Before we adjourn, a little bit of housekeeping. Senators
    will be allowed to submit questions for the record through the
    close of business on Wednesday, August 9th. We will compile
    those questions and send them to each of you and ask you to
    reply by Wednesday, August 23rd.
        Additionally, the hearing record will remain open until
    August 23rd for anyone who wants to submit materials pertinent
    to this hearing topic.
        I don't know if Dr. Einstein is tuned in today and is
    watching this hearing, but if he is, he must be thinking, in
    adversity lies opportunity. He was right then, and he is right
    today. There is lots of adversity amidst plenty of opportunity
    here. It is up to all of us to seize the day. Carpe diem.
        Thank you so much. With that, we are adjourned.
        [Whereupon, at 11:37 a.m., the hearing was adjourned.]

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